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Native American Oral Histories
Gi-gikinomaage-min Project
Interview: Christine Marcus Stone
Interviewer: Belinda Bardwell
Date: February 15, 2016
[Lin]
Okay...Well good morning Chris!
[Chris]
Good morning.
[Lin]
Good afternoon. So, you were saying that you were born in Tuscon.
[Chris]
Tuscon, Arizona.
[Lin]
And then you were adopted.
[Chris]
Mmhm.
[Lin]
Were your parents from there originally? How did they get connected?
[Chris]
My parents, who adopted me, are originally from here, Rockford - Tower City,
area.
[Lin]
Okay.
[Chris]
And they moved out there for my father's work. Well, he wasn't my father at the
time. He moved out to work, he used to work for the University of Arizona. They
built a little pueblo on the desert. Right in the middle of all these cactus. It was
amazing. And my mother even witched her own well out there. Amongst the
cowboys, and the snakes, and the horses and such. So, and then they were out
there for eleven years. About the ninth/tenth year they found me, through this
agency. So,
[Lin]
When you say witch for water, what does that mean?
[Chris]
She had a stick, and I don't remember what type of stick it was, it was apparently
quite common out there. 'Cause they bought this eleven acres of land, and there
was no water. And, of course, you have to have a well. And so she had a stick,
maybe they call it a divining stick? And she was holding it, at the two ends and it
was like a Y-shape thing and then she walked across the desert, around the
house. All of a sudden, the stick starts to shake, and that's where they dug for the
water. And, she had well.
[Lin]
Interesting. So, what Native group, or how would you describe yourself and your
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�ethnicity?
[Chris]
Well, I was lucky enough to find out through my parents who knew the doctor.
Navajo, Scottish, and some English.
[Lin]
Okay.
[Chris]
I'm a mixed bag.
[Lin]
So, you were transported back here. How old were you when you moved here?
[Chris]
I think two or three. And my parents first went to Detroit, and then moved to
Grand Rapids soon after that.
[Lin]
So where did you grow up in Grand Rapids?
[Chris]
I went to Alger School. So, I grew up on Almont Street. Walked to school every
day. And the house still is there. I drive by it occasionally.
[Lin]
Really? Still standing, huh?
[Chris]
Yeah, yeah.
[Lin]
Have you ever thought about going back in and--
[Chris]
Knocking on the door?
[Lin]
Yeah.
[Chris]
Yeah. To see if the blue and white check wallpaper that I wanted put up is still
there? Yeah.
[Lin]
So, you were two and three when you moved to Grand Rapids what was your
first memory of living in an urban area?
[Chris]
Well, I would say the area I lived in was almost a quintessential urban area.
Rows of cute little houses, and perfect little street. And you got the neighbors.
We played kick the can at night or hide n' seek and stuff. It wasn't very much of a
mixed neighborhood. But we had a lot of fun as kids. We played outdoors a lot.
And, I walked to school. And spent all my time at Alger school, and ice skating
and just growing up a kid.
[Lin]
You said you went back to visit in nineteen seventy. Can you tell me a little bit
about that?
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�[Chris]
Mmhm, back to Tuscon. When I was high school, which was at Interlochen Arts
Academy, we did a field trip. And we went to a-- there was a number of us,
'bout...I'd say seven or eight of us. That flew out to Phoenix. I flew out a little bit
before to Tucson, to visit some of my parents friends that we're still in there and
then they took me around and showed me where I was born. And where the old
house was, the old little pueblo that my parents built. Which I still have a lot of
pictures of, and they hand built it with the help of some Hispanic people. I still
have some of the relics from that house. My mother loves art. So, I still have
some really early pieces of art from there.
[Lin]
Nice. So it's still standing, huh?
[Chris]
I think so, yeah.
[Lin]
When was your last visit?
[Chris]
Well that was in seventy. I haven't been back for a long time. I do so much here. I
just haven't really had the chance to go back.
[Lin]
Is that something you want to do?
[Chris]
Oh, yeah! Sure. Not probably to live because -- It's strange but being born in the
desert, being here all these years, I'm like a woods and waters girl is what I tell
myself. I love the woods and the water here. I live on the lake now, so it would be
tough too. I love the beauty of the desert, and I would love to go back and visit.
Even every year would be fabulous but that's not going to happen right now. So...
[Lin]
So, you’re a water girl now, huh?
[Chris]
I love water, yup!
[Lin]
So you went to Interlochen…
[Chris]
Arts Academy
[Lin]
Arts Academy. Can you tell me about that high school?
[Chris]
Well, that's uh… They probably did for me for my career, because I am a painter.
By my learning the most for me as far as-- I'd say relying on myself to create and
to compete with only myself. I mean I love to look at other people work. But I
know that I want to compete with myself through the last picture I did and the last
painting. I do about a hundred and twenty paintings a year.
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�[Lin]
That keeps you pretty busy. Did you have any other Native students in your
school?
[Chris]
Not in school. Not in that school. I was trying to think back. When I was--When I
lived in Arizona it was a child. We used to go to these--there was like trading
post. And we used to go all the time, my mom would bring me. And I would
dance with the local Natives there. You know, I didn't have an outfit to wear or
anything. I just had civilian clothes
[Lin]
So were you involved with the Native community in Grand Rapids? Did you know
about the native community?
[Chris]
I was associated with the Grand Valley Indian Lodge. The Peter's family, I got to
know them. One of the first pow wows I went to was in Hastings. Years ago. I
mean a long time ago. Oh, golly. I would have to think back. I went to high school
with Lisa Shawnesse. Whose now well, she's walked on. That would have been
sixty-eight/sixty-nine, eleventh grade. And that's when we'd go up north with
Moose Pamp and protest the bones up there. I think they were with Saint Ignace.
There was somebody over there with open graves.
[Lin]
Who'd you go to Saint Ignace with?
[Chris]
It'd be Lisa Shawnesse. And she was from Petoskey. So, we'd stay there in
Petoskey.
[Lin]
And you mentioned the Peters.
[Chris]
Ike Peters and May Peters. Both of who have now walked on, and the Peter's
girls are still around and Renee is there daughter--Renee Diller. And we call her
Wassan.
[Lin]
Moose Pamp. Do you have any interesting stories about Moose?
[Chris]
Just that he was very charismatic. He was really a good leader. I wish he'd been
able to live longer. I think he would have been fabulous to draw the communities
around here, you know better. I think he would have been-- got everybody closer.
You know because we don't--At that time, we didn't have really somebody to...
that was good leader not only for Pottawatomies, but Odawas and such, and
Chippewas.
[Lin]
Any anecdote.
[Chris]
No, I just thought he was a really neat person. I knew his mother and sister. And
they were all equally as--such a neat family. A lot of power there. You know, he
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�was a good dancer. And I remember his kids when they were born. We used to
go down to Martin's all the time. I'd see him there. His family there. We'd watch
them grow up I think I saw his son. I don't know how many years ago. It was
probably five-six years ago, now. All grown up. So that was a real, wow. See
these kids, you know fully dressed out there during the pow wow, dancing. But
Moose was a good dancer, too. I remember Detroit Pow wow. He would come
out on the dance floor, so great to see him. Yup he'd shake it. So, it was great to
see him, you know both sides of his world. That side the being that dances at our
pow wows. I get used to [INAUDIBLE] dances. That's just from living in the south.
[Lin]
You mentioned the Martins. What Martins would you be referring to?
[Chris]
George Martin and Sid. Pumpkin. And then of course Dave Shenogkwit (?).
[Lin]
Yup. So after high school, what were you busy doing after high school?
[Chris]
I worked for a year, at Meijer, I bagged groceries. Did that, and then I went on to
Pennsylvania Academy of Fine Art in Philadelphia. Which was a great school
except I, personally, could not hack living in the city. The Center City deep. You
know a city that's like...You had to walk to school every day, over a mile. And just
the inner-city kind of stuff was really tough. Because coming from Interlochen
where it's all woods and the biggest scare is to see a raccoon off across the
parking lot. Then you go into down town Philadelphia. It's kind of a wakeup call.
[Lin]
So where did you grow up?
[Chris]
I grew up here in Grand Rapids.
[Lin]
In Grand Rapids in the city?
[Chris]
Mhm, in the city. Until sixth grade. And then I went to Central High School, and
then I went to Interlochen for my last year.
[Lin]
Oh, okay.
[Chris]
And Interlochen for my art career. I just, I can't express how important that was
for me the training there the motivation. That fire that that lit in me there at that
school to create. If it wasn't for that school I wouldn't be probably as prolific as I
am today.
[Lin]
So how long did you go to Penn. Fine Arts?
[Chris]
Well, Interlochen I went for the last year, graduated. Then I went to Philadelphia
just for probably a few months. Six months. I'm really just had a terribly difficult
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�problem with hearing the street fights down below the apartment. And just seeing
homeless people with their problems on the way to school. With people coming
up to you in these bigger cities. You know, I was young. I mean I was just a
young girl. I just--I just…
[Lin]
Did you move out there by yourself?
[Chris]
Yeah, I moved out to Philadelphia by myself, and I lived right downtown. Right
downtown.
[Lin]
Ah, yes. That is different.
[Chris]
But I remember my apartment. I had my Navajo rugs spread out, and some of my
native things there. It was tough, but you know then I went to Detroit for just a
couple of months and lived with a friend of my mom's. Think that's when I went to
Detroit Pow Wow. That's where Moose was at the time. And many other people I
still know today. That's the first time I saw Floyd Westerman sing.
[Lin]
So, after you finished there, and you had already worked at Meijers, moved to
Detroit. When you come back to Grand Rapids?
[Chris]
Well, I just stayed down there a couple months, and then I came back.
[Lin]
And what did you do--
[Chris]
And then I came back. And then I went to Kalamazoo Valley Community College.
So, I was like, away from home but not. You know it was like just enough far
away I felt like the independence. But not right on top of my parents here in
Grand Rapids.
[Lin]
Did you finish at K’zoo?
[Chris]
No, I didn't. I got married.
[Lin]
Did you-- Were there Native people that you associated with at Kalamazoo
Community College? Was there a group?
[Chris]
There was never a group that I could find. Which was too bad, because that
would have been fun. Nope, not there. I painted Native subjects there. Not
people at the school. But just as I painted painting class. I maybe did some,
maybe an abstract piece but it had very Native overtones. So, that's--that would
have been back in the early ‘70s. And then I started going to more pow wows,
and dancing and such. I think I figured I've been dancing forty-two years maybe?
Cause of my age now.
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�[Lin]
Did your parents, here in Michigan, support you in giving you your Native
heritage and teaching about that. Or you did you do that on your own?
[Chris]
Well, they supported me. Whatever I wanted to do, certainly. But I did a lot on my
own. You almost sometimes you have to. If you want something bad enough.
You know, whether you want power clothes and get 'em done. You just get them,
you know you just do it, you can't just figure that someone is going to hand it to
you.
[Lin]
So did you work any other places? Or did you then just become a full-time artist?
[Chris]
My, that's a walk down memory lane. Then, I was here with my son. He was
born, [INAUDIBLE], ‘74. And I live in Rockford and I had a small store there.
Which I sold a lot of crafts, beads, and such. I was raising my son, [INAUDIBLE]
Went to pow wows. Did a lot of bead work.
[Lin]
So the store in Rockford, was it only yours? Or was it a consignment?
[Chris]
It was just mine.
[Lin]
Well received in Rockford?
[Chris]
I think so. Yeah, I mean some people still remember it today. Cause we sold
beads. A lot of beads, before there were too many bead stores around. Now,
then there seem to be like a lot of bead stores for a while now. Again here in
Grand Rapids you don't find too many bead stores. Except for the big ones like
Hobby Lobby and Michael's has a few beads too. But I sold a lot of seed beads
and stuff that you'd need to go to work with that.
[Lin]
A lot of visitors in your store?
[Chris]
Oh, Yeah. Yup. We sold other--we had a lot of baskets. I handled a lot of baskets
from up north, Mount Pleasant. From Maggie Jackson and Eli Thomas. We had
gone to Canada. Purchased a lot of things that came--back in the store. Sydney
Martin's mother, who has a basket. [INAUDIBLE] I have a lot of baskets from her.
So, I take a trip down to Hopkins every so often. So, I still have people today if I
see them somewhere in Rockford they'll say: "Oh, I still have that basket that I
got from your store. I still have that pottery I got from your store."
[Lin]
When did you close the store?
[Chris]
It had to have been...I think my son was five. Probably the late ‘70s early 80s and
I got married again and moved to Oklahoma. And lived down there for four years.
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�And that was-- I lived in the city.
[Lin]
Which city?
[Chris]
In Tulsa. Tulsa, Oklahoma. But it was fun down there because there was so
much Native influence down there. You didn't have to go for a dance. Or, you
know get together on the weekends with dances. Or we went to peyote meetings
too during church.
[Lin]
How does their dances differ from the ones you experienced up in Grand Rapids,
Michigan area?
[Chris]
Well during the winter they're mostly indoors. But a lot of them were just at the
school. And it was almost a ritual. That: "Hey, it's Friday night. [INAUDIBLE] have
their dance at the school, let's go!" You know they were small. They were just for
that evening, but that's what made it so fun. They were just, you know, right now.
Of course, they were inside which most of the dances up here. Of course, in the
summer outside. So, I got used to the inside dances just as well. But they were
very well attended and of course you have a lot of conglomeration of the same
tribes in the same area. Bartlesville, Osage, Oklahoma City would be more of a
mix of people. But they were fairly well attended. A lot of drummers and
giveaways and stuff. Just like traveling down to Oklahoma City people were
always giving away shawls and things to me. You know, nice gifts. Even though
they didn't know me. Just simply because I was a visitor. I find that to be really
wonderful. You know in turn I've learned to do that with people, I like to give away
a lot of stuff if I have it.
[Lin]
So, what did you down there for four years?
[Chris]
I was a housewife. But, I really ran a business at the food market. I had a sewing
business. And I made a lot of stuff for the market and antiques and such. Also,
starting about March. I'd taken different people's order for ribbon work. So, I
know it fits for June. ‘Cause June-- You know, sage country, it's all about the
three dances that they have down there. So, the dining room table was always
laid out with broad cloth, and ribbon work, and all that kind of stuff.
[Lin]
I was telling Leigh that you could go to a gal in the area for Pottawatomie outfits,
and reverse appliqué. So, tell me little bit about your parents here in Grand
Rapids.
[Chris]
Well, my mother grew up in Rockford her family had a grocery store and, that's
when she was growing up. Then the grocery store was sold and they had a gift
shop, her parents, and they lived right on Monroe Street. 150 Monroe. And, that
house is still standing. Then my dad grew up in Howard City. He was very
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�athletic. They both went to Michigan State. It's where they met. So, Michigan
State has fond memories for me because of them. And, I have a lot of pictures of
them when they were going to school there. So, they met there, and they were
married forty-seven years. And then my mom passed away.
[Lin]
Your dad?
[Chris]
My dad lived until ‘93.
[Lin]
Wow.
[Chris]
He passed away about seven years ago now.
[Lin]
So, you said he moved--they moved to Tucson 'cause he worked at the
University of Arizona. What did do there?
[Chris]
He was a sports writer for the magazine. He just loved to write. He was the editor
and stuff. He did work for, before it burned down in Detroit. When they lived back
in Detroit. That round building. I'm trying to think of that round building.
[Lin]
The towers?
[Chris]
No. The Rotunda I believe. The Ford Rotunda. Which was, you know, much
earlier than you. [Laughter] Yup. He worked there, and I remember as a little girl
going there. It burned down for some reason years ago. And when we moved
here he worked for the Grand Rapids Press for a while. And then he got a job
with the West Michigan Tourist Association. And wrote and edited books for
them. And tourist information.
[Lin]
Brothers? Sisters?
[Chris]
No brothers, no sisters.
[Lin]
Wow. No cousins.
[Chris]
Spoiled only child. No, I'm single at this time. I've been single for a long time now.
Since probably the ‘81.
[Lin]
So, did your parents have brothers and sisters. Did you have a close family? Or
were you...?
[Chris]
My dad was an only child. So, you have an only child, with an only child, and I
have an only child. And then my mother had one sister. And we were very close.
It was a neat family. Three cousins, an aunt and uncle. And the aunt and uncle
9|Page
�live over here for many years. And up in Howard City. And bought a hundred and
twenty acres of property. Which they guarded fearlessly. To leave natural and for
the animals and wildlife. My uncle was a recycler before it was cool to recycle. I
remember as a kid just going there and I'd ask him: "What are you doin' with
those cans?" You know. And he would cut the ends of both of the cans and
smoosh them. And he'd say: "I'm saving space in the recycling, 'cause I'm gonna
take these in these are going to be recycled into something else." And that was
way back before we have today, all the messages to recycle. But he-he fiercely
guarded that land. And it's set on the Little Muskegon River. They did have some
swans. You know, whatever wildlife came there way.
[Lin]
Is that property still protected? And still there?
[Chris]
Yeah. But someone still lives there. You know they built their own house. You
know and he built a lot of the stuff on that property. But even like the roads going
into the house Royce left, they were never paved. They were just two trackers
into a real nice house, overlooking the river. He Just wanted to keep it natural.
And for years you would go up there where the house was and we'd have to use
what they would call the loony bin. Which was the bathroom--which was the
outhouse up there.
[Lin]
Hm.
[Chris]
And my aunt was an artist too. And she would like to write and paint. She worked
for the paper in Greenville and then Rockford. And my mother also was an artist.
Although she didn't paint much, which was too bad. 'Cause she really was good
at what she did. But she did a lot of embroidery. And, um--so…
[Lin]
So, who was your big influence in becoming an artist? I realize that a lot of that
comes from within, but who set you down the path of going to Interlochen and
who inspired you?
[Chris]
Well, you know, when I was here in Grand Rapids, I didn't really know about
Interlochen and then one of my friends, her name was Maureen Bell, she went
there. And she was telling me about the school. And she knew that I painted and
stuff. She said: "You know, you really should go to Interlochen." And I didn't know
what it was. And she was telling me about it. And then over at her parents’
house, her mother's house, there was a self-portrait of her that she did at
Interlochen. And I was so impressed with that. I thought: "I gotta know more
about this school." So, this was like tenth grade. So, it took part of tenth grade
and eleventh grade to get in; do all the paperwork, and then you have to go in,
and have interview, and sent all this artwork and such. So, I was able to go,
thank goodness, for my senior year. I would have loved to have gone for two
years. But the training there--the intensity of it, you know you just learn to um--
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�just compete with yourself. Not to compete with other artists. But to keep up with
yourself. Because I can't express enough. And to be a real critical eye. Not so
much to discourage yourself, but be honest with yourself and your creativity. And
really say: "Is this right in this painting?" So, I had, actually there, I had painting
and drawing. And I had weaving. Because the difference of Interlochen you have
four hours a day of art. And you have a major and a minor.
[Lin]
Wow.
[Chris]
By the time you get out, at twelfth grade, you are considered to have about the
training of a first year in college.
[Lin]
Interesting.
[Chris]
It's very intense. So then, of course, after dinner that we'd go back to the art
room to keep going at it as far as weaving, or drawing, or whatever we were
trying to finish for the end of the year.
[Lin]
Hm. Was your biological mother or father an artist?
[Chris]
That I don't know. I heard that my biological father had something to do with
building or wood. Maybe, I don't know if he's a carpenter or exactly what.
[Lin]
Well that's artistic.
[Chris]
Yeah.
[Lin]
So growing up as an only child. Having been the daughter of an only child. Did
you pull from the native community for family members? Like--
[Chris]
I think it was about equal. I had a lot of good friends. Like May Ring or May
Peter's I should say. Her maiden name was Ring. And she was just like a mother
to me too. So, I was very blessed in knowing so many older women in the
community. Which also taught me a lot. Jeanette Sinclair is one, and May. You
know it's... I was just very blessed with all the people I knew. I was on the, with
Rene, I was on the Native Women's Softball Team too. I can't remember what
year that was-- That would be...and I remember I got in trouble for throwing the
bat once at the end of the year. When you're supposed to have...I was so excited
to hit the ball, and the takeoff that I...'Cause I was never really a fast runner. I just
remember that I was so-- I was devastated. I them saying something over the
speaker about throwing the bat. I mean, like, I hit the ball and threw the bat down
too hard or something. Maybe I didn't throw it at anyone. My gosh. It seems like a
million years ago. Well, it kind of was.
11 | P a g e
�[Lin]
Sports was a big intercity Native kind of past time. Besides softball what do you
remember?
[Chris]
I remember going to some other games, but that was really for me. You know
that I remember participating, yeah. Because I was never really sports-y.
Although my dad said that I was naturally athletic. And I was a really good
swimmer. But, I'm not competitive. So. I probably never would've done it had not
Renee been there. I think she was fourteen I probably was. Maybe seventeen?
I'd really have to do the numbers to remember.
[Lin]
Jeanette Sinclair was a key important person in this community. Anything you'd
like to share about your experiences? Or hanging out with Jeanette?
[Chris]
She was just so wonderful and soft-spoken. I mean she was very smart. You
know, like you said, she was a key player in this community. She also was one of
the first people that taught me how to do bead work at Grand Valley. At Grand
Valley Indian Lodge, I had met a lot of people through there. Uh, Native and nonNatives. And the Lodge has changed now. It used to be there was two meetings
a month and very well attended. But now I'm not sure what’s going on, you know
as far as meetings. But they still have the pow wow. And I was head dancer at
that pow wow. And that would have been probably, ’73, ‘74.
[Lin]
And were they held at the river?
[Chris]
They initially weren't and I passed the place they wanted a boy scout camp, in
Comstock Park. But, you know, as I pass that place now, and I look down at
that... I don't know how that pow wow was ever held there. Because, unless they
built it up in between then and now-- I don't know if there's room. But it was at
this old boy scout camp. And it was plenty at that time, room. And it just seemed
bigger at the time. Now, it just doesn't seem big enough.
[Lin]
The Hastings Pow Wow you mentioned was that still held at the same spot on
the river.
[Chris]
Yeah, Charlton Park, I believe so...
[Lin]
It's a beautiful place.
[Chris]
Yeah.
[Lin]
So did your parents get involved in the Native community at all?
[Chris]
Not particularly, No.
12 | P a g e
�[Lin]
But they supported you?
[Chris]
Oh, absolutely. I mean they'd come to pow wows. But I mean they didn't dance
or anything like that. I think they had their own things going on too. No, they
supported me totally.
[Lin]
That's good. Growing up in Grand Rapids, did religion play a big part growing up
and maneuvering through urban...?
[Chris]
Actually, uh… My parents went to South Congregational Church and I was part
of the church. You know, I went to Sunday school. Like once in a while. Most of
the time I got out of it because I was really bored with all that business. I just
couldn't relate to the Christian part. Not that it was bad...it just. It just didn't make
any sense to me. And actually, after a while I preferred to sit upstairs and listen
to the...upstairs of the preacher...the minister. So, and then I remembered they
asked me to join the church. You know how they give you a bible and stuff? I just
never did. I just never felt that that was where I was supposed to be. And then on
one of my birthdays, I would have to go back and… I remember the church. A
tornado went through the church. Well, okay… I remember me getting on my
bike. Because I couldn't drive at the time. And I got on my bike from where I lived
rode it down to the church, and I looked at, it was very sad to see that that
tornado literally went right through the worship area. And the rose windows were
left standing at the end. And I was glad, seeing all that stained glass smashed all
over the pews were all tangled and it was really sad...horrifying. So, after that I
really never had interest at all, going back into the church. But my parents did.
You know they still came back for a while if their health permitted it.
[Lin]
Were they disappointed that you didn't join the church?
[Chris]
I don't think they were disappointed. I was always a little bit of my own thinker.
And they were so wonderful in that they let me be what I wanted to be. And if it
just wasn't in my constitution to go...it's like, okay. You know, they didn't force me
or anything to go.
[Lin]
That's good. So that wasn't right for you. Where did you find spirituality or your
connection to where you are now?
[Chris]
I had a lot of teachers at different times in my life. Somewhere in Oklahoma.
Somewhere here. All of which really are gone now. They were elderly at the time
when I was younger. When I was in early twenties they were elderly. Little Luck
was one person that I was close with. He'd stop at the house and we'd go
searching for...this was when I was in Rockford...we'd go searching for medicines
and he'd teach me things.
13 | P a g e
�[Lin]
The time you had your store, as an adult?
[Chris]
Yes. This would have been early seventies.
[Lin]
Okay.
[Chris]
And Maggie Jackson. She was from Mount Pleasant. She was also a good
basket maker too, her hands would hurt when she worked. Because she was
quite elderly. When I knew her too.
[Lin]
So did you take part in any ceremonies or just traditional practices?
[Chris]
Not formally. Also, being around the Martins. George Martin and Sid. So, I never
like went to up north to ceremonies or anything. Not particularly.
[Lin]
Now we're on to urban life experiences. Generally speaking. So you had
mentioned being part of protests up in Saint Ignace. With Moose Pamp, I
believe?
[Chris]
Mhm.
[Lin]
Were you involved in any other national organizations that focus on civil rights or
any of the other political organizations.
[Chris]
No just-just native based kinds of things. I remember when we did go to-to that
protest up in Mackinac. We protested the, there was a gathering. There were a
lot of Natives there. There must have been a hundred and some folks gathered
for--and that was when they did the reenactment at the fort where our people, not
Indians, dress up like Indians and then they reenact for the tourists the takeover
fort. And then we also protested on the other side at Saint Ignace. And I
remember that was probably the scariest part when the state police came and
they had their rifles out and their dogs, to remove us from that property. So, it
didn't last long and stuff. And we all dispersed and went back over and gathered
at the park across. I supported A.I.M and some of the members. And then of
course as I held on to the radio and TV with Wounded Knee and that take over.
But then I was back in college, trying to do that...balance.
You know, figuring out what am I gonna do for my life. And that kind of thing. So,
about that...
[Chris]
[Lin]
Any other A.I.M activities later on...or? In Grand Rapids area?
[Chris]
Yeah. I'm trying to think who came here. Uh, do you remember who was here?
I'm trying to remember names. Uh, Debbie had...
14 | P a g e
�[Lin]
Dennis Banks.
[Chris]
Yeah, Dennis Banks was here. So we got to hang out briefly with him at the pow
wow. Talk with him.
[Lin]
During the [INAUDIBLE] or was it before?
[Chris]
This might have been before. This was quite a while ago. I would say ten years
ago? Ten/twelve years ago, maybe? I was trying to think how long it'd been since
she'd walked on...So, three years...four years...
[Lin]
Maybe five?
[Chris]
Five. So probably six/seven years before that. And then I was on the board of
directors too for the North American Indian Center. When that was here...with
Levi. And circle other people which I still know. I should have done a time line
because I forgot exactly what years I [INAUDIBLE] was...
[Lin]
Would you say that the North American Indian Council?
[Chris]
Indian Center.
[Lin]
Indian Center.
[Chris]
It was downtown for a while. And then we moved over on to Straight Street.
[Lin]
Lexington?
[Chris]
The complex, yeah. And it lasted a few years.
[Lin]
I mean how is that different from the Inter-tribal Council? Was that before or
after?
[Chris]
That would have been after. Grand Rapids Inter-tribal Council. I was in and out of
there. As far as an artist at the time.
[Chris]
Terry Bussey(?)[INAUDIBLE] had...who… I think she's from up north originally.
She has started The Great Lakes Indian Press. And I had illustrated some the of
books that people wrote. Unfortunately, they were never published because that
was dispersed over there.
[Lin]
Where are those books? What was it the north...
[Chris]
Uh, Great Lakes Indian Press. This was when Wag had the place...had the place
15 | P a g e
�over there. At the school. Lexington School.
[Lin]
These books...
[Chris]
Grand Rapids Inter-tribal Council was what that was called I believe.
[Lin]
Right.
[Chris]
And then, as an off shoot from that, there was a Great Lakes Indian Press. Which
was a separate, it was connected, but it was separate. And Terry Bussey ran
that. A couple books were published. Then they got to these children's books. I
was asked to illustrate two, which I did. So, most of the illustrations were done.
And then the Inter-tribal dispersed. So whatever happened to those drawings, I
don't know. I think Levi picked up being the head over there for a while. And then
that didn't work. And so then it was better just to start a whole new Indian Center.
And that's when he started the Indian Center downtown here.
[Lin]
The North American Indian Center?
[Chris]
Mhm. Yup. And then I was on that board of directors till about the last year.
[Lin]
You were on board for the North American Indian Center?
[Chris]
Yep.
[Lin]
Who were you on the board with?
[Chris]
Well, let's see. Tony Deal (?), Debbie worked as secretary...See here's the
memory thing again… Corton Bates(?), there was a fella named Bob--but I didn't
know him. He was actually from like Detroit. He wasn't native. I remember there's
quite a few people that would come and go. You know, some would serve for a
while and then they would go. Linda...I'm trying to think of the last name. Can't
remember right now.
[Lin]
So what type of activities or services did the North American Indian Center
provide?
[Chris]
We were under the wing of Goodwill, and did they the book keeping. Kinda
oversaw the finances and the goings on of that. Some of it was...Unfortunately,
we didn't have a tremendous amount of money. But we could help some people
out financially. And it was very common to have someone call and say: "Hey, my
heats gonna get shut off...Can we get help?" And you know, we'd be able to
maybe cover the heat bill, or a new piece of furniture. Somebody didn't have a
16 | P a g e
�dresser, or shoes. You know, that kind of thing, small stuff. I mean we couldn't
buy somebody a car. But, you know, sometimes just having a hundred bucks
worth of groceries helps a lot. There are so many people in need--Native people
in need. So that was one of those projects, and then Levi had another fellow that
worked that would help people find jobs.
[Lin]
Was it difficult for Native Americans to find jobs?
[Chris]
Well yeah, I think it was. Because maybe lack of education in some respects, or
addiction. And to hold on to them. But, this fellow was an advocate and would
help. So, I think that there was some good done there.
[Lin]
Can you tell me about any positive experience that made you feel best about
being Native American and living in Grand Rapids?
[Chris]
Well, certainly the camaraderie and the friends and being able to be spiritually
connected with other people. And just like knowing this much. Or where I was
taught we used cedar too; and a fry pan and a piece of metal. So, it's just nice to
be able to use that stuff and not think twice about it. And you have to explain it to
somebody. You know, that kind of thing...That's really nice.
[Lin]
Do you think that there is a greater sense of community now? Or was it better
back then? Or is just different?
[Chris]
It's different because now, with the tribes being recognized again, that has made
a difference. You have different tribal members from their different tribes kinda of
like with an NHBP, you have that going on that side of town. Ottawa is over here
I believe in another building. They have their own things that they have to
accomplish. So, back when I grew up we didn't have all those different tribes
having that much influence. Almost everybody gathered at Grand Valley Indian
Lodge, 'cause that was such a mix of people--Native and non-Native. That was in
my time when I grew up nice, because everybody gathered and we learned
different things about different people because there were programs.
[Chris]
So now that you have these different people and everybody's a little bit more
separate--then we come together at dances and pow wows.
[Lin]
Were there any negative experiences being Native in an urban setting?
[Chris]
Growing up in school I was always darker, my hair was darker. There was all that
business. People doing the war whoop. But probably one of the things that set
me back was my son's name on his birth-certificate is Two Eagles Marcus. (?)
When I was in Oklahoma, when I first registered him for school, when he was in
kindergarten. So, we did all the registration. He went to school for a couple
17 | P a g e
�weeks, and all of a sudden, the teacher calls me in kind of sheepishly. And she
says: "Would you please go back to the office and resign your son in for his
schooling?" And I said: "What? We did all that?" She said: "Well, I'm not
supposed to tell you this, but they threw all his paperwork away because they
thought it was a joke." And those were her exact words. Because of the name, it
was a traditional name. So that would have been in the seventies...seventyfour...late seventies. So even then...Then we have this new thing with-- I think it's
Facebook. Some of these Native names, traditional names, are getting thrown off
because people think they're fake. Including my son, again, got thrown off. He
had to redo all of his signing up for...
[Lin]
So you lived in Tulsa and you brought him back and registered him for Grand
Rapids.
[Chris]
Mhm.
[Lin]
So where did he go to school?
[Chris]
He went to Rockford.
[Lin]
So what was signing him up like?
[Chris]
Well I signed up with his real name, but then we just called him Ben in school.
Which is sad.
[Lin]
So you change his name?
[Chris]
Not legally, no. Just a nickname. But his name legally is Two Eagles, and always
has been. And he goes by that now.
[Lin]
Where did Ben come from?
[Chris]
[Chris]
His grandfather [INAUDIBLE] was named Ben.
So, we called him Benj when he was little and Ben when he was older. It just cut
through everything. And a little kid can't fight back. I remember he was about four
and I had let his hair grow really long and it was black. And the kids in our
neighborhood rubbed gum in it, and made him cry. Of course, it was down to his
waist. He then wanted it all cut off. So that was really upsetting. But, I thought:
"He's so young, he doesn't have any tools to fight with. He's just a little kid." So,
we did eventually cut his hair off. It was still kind of long, like Jack Kennedy's hair.
But, it wasn't down to his waist or anything.
[Lin]
How did that make you feel cuttin' his hair?
18 | P a g e
�[Chris]
It was terrible. I cried and cried and cried. That I had to do that. But, I wanted,
what I had thought at the time, was best for him. I mean I couldn't be there all the
time to scold the other kids. Or to explain to them, to stand guard. I couldn't. I
thought: "Well how are we going to make it through this growing up without a lot
of scars?" So, that's what we did. I regretted it though, I felt terrible having to cut
it. But he wanted it cut. He just came in tears and they had ruined some of his
hair too. Why they did it? I can only guess.
[Lin]
What would be your guess?
[Chris]
Well, full black hair down to a boy's bottom. So prejudice, I'm sure it was
prejudice.
[Lin]
Are there negative experiences being Native?
[Chris]
Some here. But we had more problems in Oklahoma. 'Specially some of the
small places, western Oklahoma. Maybe not getting waited on in restaurants.
[Lin]
So you mentioned that there are a larger number of tribes represented in a
bigger population. Why do you think that there's more racism down there, when
there is such a large number of Native.
[Chris]
Well they intermix the play between the police. As I learned more I didn't really
want my son growing up down there. Because he is very, very Native looking;
black hair, brown eyes, and real dark. There were a lot of stories about young
men getting into jail for literally nothing. Clashes with the police, especially in
some of the smaller towns. The boys never come out of jail. Somehow they're
found police say [INAUDIBLE] themselves or something. All kinds of stories like
that. I thought that maybe we, at the time, if we did move back that maybe he
wouldn't be as immersed in the culture, but he at some point could find his way
back to what he wanted. When he was old enough to defend himself. And stand
up for himself as far as problems with other people.
[Chris]
Especially as a young kid, down in Oklahoma we did have racial problems. First
of all, the name in school. And, not getting waited on in restaurants--that
happened more than once. It really wasn't too long ago when you, if you were
Native down there in New Mexico or Oklahoma that you were asked to sit in the
back of the restaurant. Not quite up front, you know.
[Lin]
So he found his way back to his culture?
[Chris]
Well, he has. He goes by the name Two Eagles now. He runs his business with
that name, and he's very well accepted. He's actually memorable to people
because he is unusual. So, that turned out well.
19 | P a g e
�[Lin]
Do you see a shift in the way we are raising our children? Case in point, my mom
didn't raise me in the native way and probably thought the same. We are given
the tools that you need to grow up, you'd find your way back and regain some of
those things. You see a shift in that now a days?
[Chris]
Not so much here. It's partly just having access to cultural things. If this were
Oklahoma City there's a dance some place every Friday night. Yeah, it’s just a
Friday night thing. Not a two day pow wow. But, it's just to hear those drums. And
just to be able to get out there and dance informally. If you want to dress with
everything, you know your dance clothes. Or if you just want to shall dance. I
mean it's just--be there! Be part of it! Have a fifty-fifty raffle and just be part of all
of that.
[Lin]
Huh, that's interesting. An informal gathering. Where I think we have so many
formal gatherings.
[Chris]
Right. I believe some of these are put on by the Oklahoma Pow Wow Club But
it's still, "so and so is going to have a couple drums at this gymnasium and you
just show up. There is a lot of that out there. Especially, in some of the
Bartlesville. Next week is [INAUDIBLE]. Or next week is, you know, some
gymnasium.
[Lin]
I think we need to do that here.
[Chris]
I think that would be great! Especially on New Year’s Eve. That's a tough one for
Natives. Do you end up at a bar? Where can you go where you don't have
alcohol?
[Lin]
Right
[Chris]
You can still have an awful lot of fun. A lot of food. You can't have Natives
without food.
[Lin]
There use to be a Y in Grand Rapids. But now I think the New Year’s sobriety
pow wows are quite a distance. And New Year’s Eve-- Well there's a toss-up.
[Chris]
Yeah, we have that to contend with in Oklahoma. I talk about Oklahoma a lot.
You know, I was there for four years. You have a little more-- You well have
some influence from the Osage they have there. Tribal dances all in June. And
each community hosts one dance. You know, that's a big deal. And they start
getting ready years before--when you see an Osage drum passing it is so
beautiful and there is a lot of pageantry to it. It's amazing. They bring horses up
to the dance arena and give them away. With broad cloth blankets and hundred-
20 | P a g e
�dollar bills attached to them. I've seen it. It's amazing.
[Lin]
So if you could summarize into one to three highlights about who you are as an
urban Native, what would you want to pass on to the next generations?
[Chris]
I think that the red road is a good road. But it's a hard road. Especially if you want
to remain traditional. I've seen somethings change that are supposed to be
tradition that are different now, not so much for the good. I do have my own
personal things that drive me crazy. Such as, I look around and see dream
catchers everywhere. The early ones were so simple, and made correctly. I
mean when I can go to the local gas station and buy a dream catcher lighter for a
cigarette. It just kind of waters the whole thing down. And it makes me sad.
[Lin]
What other things do you see that have been appropriated?
[Chris]
Probably the use of wearing skirts as opposed to pants. Skirts with women and
traditional things. I think when we need to wear a skirt, we need to wear a skirt.
And not hid pants under it. I've heard people say: "Well that's just progress." Well
to me that's not. It isn't. It defeats the whole purpose of wearing a skirt in our
traditional ceremonies. So, that's just a couple things. Some of the culture things
that are changed-- There's a natural way to change. We've changed culturally
because of materials available, and I'm just speaking of dance clothes. Any
cultural progresses with what's available. You know, its stores and trade. Some
of it's okay with me. I don't want to sound really snotty about the whole thing.
There are some things that have changed because of laziness and some things
that naturally change. And it's part of the natural cultural change as it's changed
from two-hundred years ago--what we use. There's different examples of it. I
think a culture can change without being rude to the culture that came before,
some of the traditions that came before. I guess what's coming to my mind is with
our little boys and young men when they wear their roaches. We always had
roach spreaders for [INAUDIBLE] bone, and then silver. Some local boys used
CD's as a roach spreaders. I think that's neat. Because that's part of what they
grew up with and that's not insulting the old ways.
[Chris]
That's just change and that's an evolutionary thing. And it's natural. But there are
some things that, to me, are like a slap in the face. Like the use of dream
catchers every place you turn around. And they're made the wrong way, they
look wrong, they're not made with any prayers. That hurts me to see that.
[Lin]
You mentioned the red road. Could you clarify what the red road is?
[Chris]
It's probably more traditional. Not everything is easy. There's is a lot of things in
Native culture that are easy but they're good. When we start off talking today and
in other places. You know we start with off prayers. We start off with burning
21 | P a g e
�cedar, smoking people off. It takes extra time, it takes someone else to do it. It
takes someone puttin' themselves there to actually doctor people. When you
smoke people off. It takes extra time and not everybody wants to take that time. It
doesn't fit in with the schedule, so to speak. Probably the sobriety. So many
Native people are depressed and falling back on addictions is very prevalent.
With poverty or family problems. It's more so in the Native culture. With suicides
and addiction. So that's hard to pull out of that. That take a person that really
wants to, and somebody that really can help them. A lot of spiritual things have to
go along with that. I hope that people can pull out if they want to. I hope that
when they do there is somebody there to help them, pull them up.
[Lin]
Do you think that there is support in the Grand Rapids area?
[Chris]
Yes, I do. It might not be the easiest to find some days, but I do think that there is
support. There's certain individuals even that you know we all could come in
contact with will take the time to talk with you or to counsel people. They don't
necessarily have to be through a program. You know, just certain people in my
past. Who took the time to counsel me, or say a good word. Uplift somebody in
some way, and not dwell on negative things. But the good things and the positive
things.
[Lin]
So is there anything I didn't ask you that you want to talk about and share?
[Chris]
Probably when I'm driving home I'll think of a hundred.
[Lin]
Well, you mentioned positive things about being Native in the urban area. What
would you say would be some of the positives about living in the urban area?
[Chris]
Well, I think through some of the- We're lucky here in Grand Rapids we have
access to so many pow wows that are close. Both at the rez up in Mount
Pleasant. We have Fulton. And then we have some of the centers like in HBP.
We have the Odawa, Ottawas, and so tribal members can see count through
those agencies.
[Chris]
And HBP, the clinic for instance, with behavioral health and for medical help you
just have to be Native to go. You don't have to be in that tribe. Which is a really
great mission for that tribe to put out that money to help, and get the grants.
That's a lot of work. So, I think that those are positive things, if city Indians can
find that those exist. And be able to get there and work with those programs.
That support, I hope, many people. Because when I first grew up here in Grand
Rapids none of those were available here. None of those programs. They were in
Oklahoma, back in the seventies. But know that there here through Grand
Rapids that's great.
22 | P a g e
�[Lin]
So, anything else? Like you said, you'll remember on your way home.
[Chris]
I'm sure… I can talk for hours sometime. I wasn't sure...hopefully I've helped you
with… you know...talking and being a guinea pig. I don't mind.
[Lin]
I want to thank you for being with us today and sharing.
[Chris]
My pleasure.
[Lin]
And, I'm sure we'll so some follow up. A very interesting story. Do you have any
suggestions on who we should interview?
[Chris]
Well, I would think Jeff Davis would be a good person. And Betty if possible.
There are a few people at the clinic. Roslyn Johnson, the Head of the Health
Department. She's from First Nation. There again, there is somebody that's just
starting to think about traditional healing over there. There again someone that
has to juggle the bureaucracy of the laws of health care and all the things that
involve giving somebody a shot, even. Plus balancing the traditional ways, too,
over there. Maybe having traditional healers come in, so there is person that has
to work with both. Both heads of the spectrum. I hope that with some people,
mainly, well with everyone, but mainly, probably city Indians, is that there is a
balance there between the traditional ways and trying to function in an Indian
society and follow those rules too. Which, to me it means that internal should
even be more of a presence in their life, and how to live two roles. Like a turtle
does, more meaningful. When you understand what's behind that. Because most
of the Indians have to balance. Tremendous balance. Walking up, following the
rules... Also, following traditional practices even. Having things in the car that
may be things hanging from the mirror and stuff that might not be acceptable to
somebody else. But is very traditional to Native people. Or, dress. Something
people wear might not… to Native people we need to do that, to wear that, or
have that, but to outside world that's not a good thing. I have known of situations,
not me personally, it didn't happen to, but where we have burned smudge and
somebody thought it was marijuana.
[Chris]
To Native people smudge is such a smell that is so practical, it's always there it's
spiritual. It's part of your life. It's not anything bad. But if one isn't use to it, you
could get in trouble. That would be a couple comments I would make.
[Lin]
Alright, well thank you.
[Chris]
You're welcome.
[Lin]
Belinda Bardwell, signing off.
23 | P a g e
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Gi-gikinomaage-min Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Native American Advisory Council
Grand Valley State University. Kustche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews with members of Grand Rapids' urban Native American population collected as part of the Gi-gikinomaage-min Project: Defend Our History, Unlock Your Spirit.
Translated from Anishinaabemowin, the original language of this area, Gi-gikinomaage-min means "We are all teachers." This is the name our project team choose to convey to the Native American community that through our stories and experiences, we are all teachers to someone. As we share those stories, we are allowing for our next generations to experience the past.
Grand Rapids’ Native American community grew dramatically in the last half of the 20th century as a result of a little-known federal program that still impacts American Indian lives today. Called the Urban Relocation Program, it created one of the largest mass movements of Indians in American history. The full scope of this massive social experiment and its impact on multiple generations of Native Americans remains largely undocumented and unexplored.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015/2016
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Gi-gikinomaage-min Project
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Subject
The topic of the resource
Indians of North America
Indians of North America--Michigan
Indians of North America--Education
Potawatomi Indians
Bode'wadmi
Ojibwa Indians
Anishinaabe
Navajo Indians
Dine'e
Cherokee Indians
Tsagali
Aniyunwiya
Archaeology
Mound-builders
Hopewellian culture
Indian arts--North America
Personal narrativse
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. Special Collections & University Archives
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DC-10
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/mp3
video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Moving Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DC-10_Stone_Christine_Marcus_0215
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Stone, Christine Marcus
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-02-15
Title
A name given to the resource
Christine Marcus Stone interview (video and transcript)
Description
An account of the resource
Christine Marcus Stone is a painter of Navajo, Scottish, and English descent, who was born in Tuscon, Arizona and moved to Michigan at a young age. In her interview, she disucsses her arts education, her personal and family history, and the Grand Rapids Native community.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Bardwell, Belinda (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Navajo Indians
Dine'e
Personal narrativse
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Indians of North America
Indians of North America--Michigan
Indian arts--North America
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Gi-gikinomaage-min Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/25ee2280a67c74c7dba4de052c6bf8ad.mp4
fc93bfdf4a63b345876db6a8659251f1
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2b085df2438e9c186ad436454bc892e0.pdf
31e1237dc203d0963ad12d03bf7e13fc
PDF Text
Text
Native American Oral Histories
Gi-gikinomaage-min Project
Interview: Hunter Genia
Interviewer: Melanie Shell-Weiss
Date: November 29, 2016
[Melanie]
Okay terrific. So, it is now 4:22 in the afternoon on Wednesday November 29th.
Melanie Shell-Weiss and I'm here in the Eberhart Center seventh floor
conference room with Hunter Genia and Belinda Bardwell. Hunter, thank you for
being willing to talk with us today I appreciate it.
[Hunter]
Eh. Thanks. [Laughter]
[Melanie]
This interview is part of the Gi-gikinomaage-min Project. So, Hunter, can you
start by spelling your full name for the record?
[Hunter]
Letter by letter?
[Melanie]
I know it's cumbersome but--
[Hunter]
[Sing-Song Voice] H-U-N [Laughter] Wow, I got my Mom's voice in there.
[Melanie]
Nice.
[Hunter]
H-U-N-T-E-R. Middle-name Todd. T-O-D-D. Last name Genia G-E-N-I-A
[Melanie]
Great. Thank you. So where are you from originally?
[Hunter]
Uh, Grand Rapids. Born and raised.
[Melanie]
When were you born?
[Hunter]
1969
[Melanie]
Okay, what neighborhood in Grand Rapids?
[Hunter]
Uh, actually on the West Side of Grand Rapids. I believe we were living--well, I
don't know. Somewhere on the West Side and then eventually grew up in the
Walker kind of Standale area. So that's where I grew up most of my childhood
and adolescence.
[Melanie]
Great, can you tell me about your family?
1|Page
�[Hunter]
[Sigh] Oh-- Where to start? Well, um-- I'll probably start with my grandparents.
My grandpa is Joe John. Joe [Kinowakise?] -- John was his baptismal name. I
think at two years of age it changed. My grandmother is Hazel Pontiac and, so
my grandpa's areas is originally from Middle Village, Cross Village. Beaver Island
kind of area. My grandmother was born, I believe, in Rosebush, Michigan. So,
and her dad, Jim Pontiac, was in the Everett area. So... And then my mom was
born in the McBain area. In a – true story—in a log cabin. [Laughter] As funny as
it sounds, that's a lot of our people. Then she moved to Kent City, and graduated
from Kent City High School in 1957. And then she moved to Grand Rapids. At
probably eighteen years of age. And then she had my sister, and then my
brother, and then me. So, we kind of grew up on the West Side of Grand Rapids,
initially, and then moved out west of town.
[Melanie]
What brought your mom to Grand Rapids originally?
[Hunter]
Probably just work. You know, so yeah, she basically eventually got into
manufacturing. She was working at Grand Rapids Metal Craft at first, and then
she moved over to General Motors. And then retired from General Motors.
[Melanie]
Cool. What are some of your earliest memories?
[Hunter]
You know what? I was actually thinking about this, and you know 'cause we had
the passing of Dennis Banks recently, and I was thinking about a meeting in
Muskegon. Where the-- some of the members of the American Indian Movement,
came in early seventies?
[Melanie]
Mmhm
[Hunter]
Because I was there and I was probably, I don't know, five, six years old maybe
somewhere? 'Cause, funny story, I just remember the news coverage and it
showed this boy running all around in the background, and that was me. So, but
– and then I remember going out to the Longest Walk in Washington D.C. and
that was around 1978. And, we rode with the Martin family. And, I think I was
probably eight years old. And that was interesting. I've never seen so many
Native American people in one location. And then understanding, after the fact,
why we were there, and you know, the whole purpose. And really the magnitude
of it. Because, if you think about it just a few years earlier, you had the standoff at
Wounded Knee. You know, you had the takeover Alcatraz. You had the takeover
of the Bureau of Indian Affairs buildings in Washington D.C. So, I didn't realize
you know, everything until a little bit later. The significance and what that was
about. You know, and then, I guess, just as you know childhood just playing
sports was kind of my thing. You know, and then also too, you know, with the
Grand Rapids Inter-tribal Council, my grandparents who both spoke the language
2|Page
�fluently, and also attended Mount Pleasant Indian Industrial Boarding School.
You know, they would often go to the events or support the events. And my
grandpa was often asked to say the prayers because he would do it all in the
language. You know, and so, I also remember when the pow wow, the Three
Fires Pow Wow was in front of the Gerald R. Ford Museum. And that was really
interesting. I think one vivid memory I had, damn it, was my brother taking me out
into the pow wow circle. And so, he's gone now, and he's been gone since 2002.
But, I just remember listening to the drum and it was really just calling my spirit.
So, I think that my path, I guess that even I'm still on, was chosen for me, and is
what the Creator had in mind for me growing up and just trying to, I guess put me
in a place to try to help our people. So yeah.
[Melanie]
Mmhm.
[Hunter]
So, yeah. And then, I think where I grew up, being close to Lake Michigan. That
was often always a good memory because we lived so close. Within a half hour
drive and going out to, whether it's Grand Haven, or Kirk Park, or wherever, and
being there with my family, and the water. Those are always positive, good
memories.
[Melanie]
Yeah.
[Hunter]
You know and the school experience, and that was kind of interesting too. You
know, because I think basically, I was the only identified Native American student
in our school often. So, you know.
[Melanie]
And where did you do your schooling?
[Hunter]
Initially it started out at the Sand Creek Elementary(?).
[Melanie]
Mhm. Yeah?
[Hunter]
And it was part of Grandville schools. And actually, it was very close to Allendale.
And I would get bused out there because I used to live, we had a house off M-45.
So, I think maybe, I think it went through K through 2 there. Then when my mom
got a divorce we moved closer to Standale and I lived in a mobile home park.
[Melanie]
Mhm, okay.
[Hunter]
Close to Wilson and Leonard street. You know, and so then when we move I
transferred over to Kenowa Hills. That's where I went halfway through third grade
through high school. So, and the interesting thing too about Kenowa. You know
my grandpa was like "Kenowa, that means to look or to see." And, so you'll hear
that sometimes in our songs we sing about looking at the dancers. "Kenowa"
3|Page
�Yeah, so. Those are, I guess, some memories.
[Melanie]
Those are some good memories.
[Hunter]
Yeah, and I mean, and all through that time. You know too, my sister worked at
Grand Rapids Inter-tribal Council for a while. So sometimes, when I would just
kind of drop in there during high school. She would be working there so I really
got to know people I still know today. That are alive, you know, even though they
may have moved back home up north. But they served you know like board of
directors or other positions.
[Melanie]
And what does your sister do at the Inter-tribal Council?
[Hunter]
She, uh, was just--I shouldn't say just--she's like an administrative assistant.
[Melanie]
So, something I would like to understand a little better I've read fair amount about
your grandfather and his work with the Northern Michigan Ottawa Association
and others. Your family has been very politically active for a long time. Could you
talk about that a little bit at least what you know about it or remember how that
may have shaped your thinking, that sort of thing?
[Hunter]
He was part of the Northern Michigan Ottawa Association. During the time that
some of the Dominics that were part of that, and I think in general. I mean for my
understanding of course I was young and doing my own thing. You know they
were advocating, just in general, for the welfare of Ottawas general. He would
always talk about the Indian money. Course he didn't really see that, you know,
but it also, kind of, almost became kind of like a joke in a sense. I think a lot of
our elders kind of talked like that. But as far as going into meetings, and stuff like
that, I mean I didn't participate in the Northern Michigan Ottawa Association.
[Melanie]
You had been really young or not born yet.
[Hunter]
Yeah, often times you know I'd be more of a chauffeur for him. And my grandpa
was legally blind.
[Melanie]
Yeah.
[Hunter]
You know. So, he had a seeing eye dog. Name was Toby, a German Shepherd.
But my grandpa always got around, like he would walk all over. You know? So
yeah, he’s, I guess, you know seeing how active that he was, he never like
necessarily pressed that upon me. But, I'm sure it did influence me. And he
would always talk about Indian education. And, going further. You know? So, I
know that that was something that was important to him. I know he's helped with
some of the city's work like Ah-Nab-Awen Park. He actually named the park and
4|Page
�then the statue that's out there, Nishnabe Gemaw. Is something that Fred Meijer
and those guys asked him to translate that too. Yeah, so I--you know.
[Melanie]
Was your Mother active politically as well in the community?
[Hunter]
Not really, no. She would always go to the events and activities. You know
maybe some meetings, but being a single parent, you know, she was always
kind of busy and working. Family is important, you know. We got a lot of you
know cousins too, like on the West Side. And it was kind of like you know some
of their parents didn't necessarily live that long. So, even though she was
technically was their aunt and she kind of was like their mom in a way. She kind
of held, often times, a lot of our family (cousins) together. She kind of was
organizing and coordinating. You know, step up kind of person you know. So,
you know. Yeah, definitely. Luckily, she's still she's still around, you know today,
she still active. Now we're working on some other political stuff with just some
tribal, federal recognition efforts and stuff, so...
[Melanie]
That's good.
[Hunter]
Yeah.
[Melanie]
So thinking about some of your own earliest experiences. Certainly, meeting with
leaders of AIM in Muskegon is a big deal. Longest Walk, another. What do you
remember from the West Side and even after you moved to Walker and
Standale? You would have been coming of age at a time when the ITC was
forming for the first time and a lot was going on. When did you become aware of
some of that? What are some of your memories around that?
[Hunter]
Um.
[Melanie]
Did it matter to you?
[Hunter]
No, I think in a way it was something that is still missing. Like when the Grand
Rapids Inter-tribal Council went away it's almost like, we just didn't have a place.
Which I think is unfortunate, because there are still, you know, a lot of our people
here in the West Michigan area, in the Grand Rapids area, but we don't have like
a center. You know, that all of us can come together and support. And we
should, but you know that's a different story. But I think, I always kind of identify
with the Grand Rapids Inter-tribal Council. You know, there's a lot of families that
really represented many different tribes that were on that board. You know, from
Grand Traverse Band, and you know some of the Rayfields, and Mary Roberts.
She was a [INAUDIBLE] and you know Roger Williams. You know the
[INAUDIBLE], [INAUDIBLE] coming from Little River Band. Williams
Pottawatomie. I mean it's so it was kind of cool in that way. You know? And it
5|Page
�didn't matter what tribe you belonged to, you were serviced. And I think that's
something just unfortunately it's missing. I mean it's good that all the tribes you
know they're getting their own services and stuff like that. We just almost have
become too separate in a way. And don't have a way to come together. So, I kind
of miss that that part of it. And some tribes, they became federally recognized
after, and not until later. You know. So, you know. But it always felt like the West
Side, that Grand Rapids, was kind of like its own reservation. You know, in the
city.
[Melanie]
In what sense?
[Hunter]
There were just a lot of families down here, you know? The Rayfields', the
McSaby's, and the Sam's, and the--you know...the--I mean [INAUDIBLE] and
just..I mean there was--you know, a lot of people that it seem like--you know, the
Davis' I mean coming out of living in [INAUDIBLE] another one. You know--you
know Dayse, that family, you know. I mean so--Shomans, I mean so-- It just I
mean--you know. Yeah, and I mean, it was all these families sort of you know
living in this area and-- But seemed like we, you know, one Grand Rapids Intertribal Council at a community event you know all those different families would
show up, you know, and we would have our own, you know, ghost suppers, you
know those kinds of important, you know, important cultural activities and stuff
like that. You know, so yeah it--you know. It's--
[Melanie]
Did Native families know each other other ways?
[Hunter]
Oh yeah.
[Melanie]
Yeah? Like how?
[Hunter]
A lot of them were related. [Laughter] So, I mean--you know. And your extended
family. You know, and in 1990 actually took a position with Grand Rapids Intertribal Council they were starting a youth program.
[Melanie]
Right.
[Hunter]
So, I just got like a call out of the blue, and I was a little bit nervous but I was like
okay. You know so we started this Young Eagles Program. And--uh...So a lot of
these kids that are now--you know, have families of their own, I remember a lot of
them when they were younger. Some [INAUDIBLE], some of the Daysons, and
Williams, and-uh… you know. So, we're trying to, you know, use after school
prevention activities. [INAUDIBLE] another family that were involved. You know.
We were just--we were trying to, you know because, a lot of our people didn’t
have a lot of money were down here. You know--So, I mean what are some
positive activities that could be after school? That they could come to? You know,
6|Page
�we just really wanted them to be proud of who they are, learn more about who
they are, but we'd just do a lot of fun cultural activities too-- So, I would ask
different families that knew how to do different things to come in and teach our
kids. You know, then we eventually started Middle School/High School group.
We started traveling around by raising our own money, not through grants, to
some of the National Unity conferences. They would raise their money by
actually going and doing school cultural, like pow wow education programs. And-uh. So a lot of the youth would you know, dance. But we also, through that
process, they got comfortable in actually talking and explaining to the students
about their dance and about the history. We did the same thing with the drum.
We didn't just want to come in there and do a song and dance and leave. We
want to make sure they came away with some education. So, we just kind of took
a donation from the school. They used that money to go to these national
conferences to pay for the hotel, the gas, everything.
[Melanie]
That's great.
[Hunter]
So yeah. Yup. So now those kids boss me around. [Laughter] They all have their
own families and kids.
[Melanie]
So how did you get involved in that position? So you mentioned your sister
worked as an administrative assistant in ITC.
[Hunter]
Yeah, one of my sister's friends though, she's in charge of the substance abuse
program. and then one of the other families--Uh, she worked for 4H and her
name was Rosanna Martell. And, so it was a collaboration.It was partially being
supported by 4H because of Rosanna's involvement. And, so the Shawa[?]
family, Martell family was involved in that program too. You know and we would
just use the basement, and kitchen area of Grand Rapids Inter-tribal Council.
and I mean we had parents come together just you know help support, you
know-- and also, but yeah when they were launching it. I mean, I don't know
Vicky Upton was the substance abuse director. She must of, I don't know if she
talked to my sister or not but all of a sudden, I got a call at home for a part-time
sub-review thing, and I was like, "Uhh, I've never done that before, but okay, I'll
give it a try." And, uh--and that took me down probably--well it helped me to get
to where I'm at now too because it really was talking about prevention from
alcohol and tobacco and other drugs and I eventually went down the social work
path and you know--Actually I got my bachelors in criminal justice, and then my
master's in social work. So, I just remember I had to make a decision between
criminal justice and going into the police academy when I completed the criminal
justice program here, or not.
[Melanie]
So what attracted you to criminal justice?
7|Page
�[Hunter]
You know the thing is, like, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. You know?
[Melanie]
That is true for most of us at that age, yeah?
[Hunter]
Yeah. So, it was--it was like I kind of felt pressure, more-- not from the outside
but you know within myself to just-- even though I didn't know what I wanted to
do, just go to college, and go. You know, and I would figure it out. So, I actually I
started out at Grand Rapids Junior College and got my Associates there, and
then I transferred to Grand Valley.
[Hunter]
And then I thought maybe criminal justice, law enforcement--you know. But then I
was enjoying so much what I was doing I just felt like I couldn’t make a big
enough difference if I stayed in law enforcement, so I decided to stay working
where I'm at--got some encouragement to go for my master's degree. So then
three years after I started my master's degree.
[Melanie]
That's good. Were you active in Native American student groups on campus?
[Hunter]
Yeah, we actually we tried starting one at Grand Rapids Junior College. We
actually did, we actually had some speakers come in. In fact there's the one
gentleman from the Canary Effect who speaks about the-- in South Dakota about
getting money from the state for the non-Native students going to the Standing
Rock Tribal College and he was one of our speakers. I can't think of his name
now, but we did try to get a student group going there. Then out at Grand Valley
State. You know we had the Native American Student Organization there. And it,
for me, the highlight, of that was bringing in Floyd Redcrow Westermen. And he
came in and he did like a concert in the evening at the--I think it was the Kirk-ahof?
[Melanie]
Kirkhof?
[Hunter]
Yeah, Kirkhof. Is it Devos though, out there that has the little auditorium?
[Melanie]
Cook Devos has the auditorium. Was that there then?
[Hunter]
Yeah with the clock tower? So, he came out an' did a concert in there and it was
packed. It was--it was it was nice. And 'course, everyone kind of knew him from
Dances with Wolves. You know his acting and all that, but you know he was a
tribal rights activist, through his music, you know he sang a lot about that I guess
we kind of became friends in some way. I remember out in San Diego. I was at a
youth conference and they have no evening activities planned. So, I ended up
calling him, he was living in Venice Beach. And never heard back from him. But
next thing you know, he comes walking into the conference with his guitar and
8|Page
�[Melanie]
That's great!
[Hunter]
Ended up doing some songs for everyone that was in attendance, and I was just
like-- I just was like how awesome was that. I ended up giving him a ribbon shirt
that I had and when I went to the Canadian Aboriginal Festival at the Sky Dome
in Toronto I--we checked into the hotel room turned on the TV and that Naturally
Native Woman movie with the three Native business women
[Melanie]
Yeah.
[Hunter]
He was in that movie and there he was wearing the ribbon shirt I gave him in the
movie. [Laughter]
[Melanie]
That’s so great!
[Hunter]
I was like going hysterical, everyone thought I was nuts around the drum. You
know, but--cause all of a sudden how cool is that? Ya know—'cause you never
know, ‘cause people get gifts, you think wow, do they just put them on a shelf, do
they just give it away? I mean I don't know! There he was wearing it in a movie.
[Melanie]
That's very cool.
[Hunter]
Yeah, yeah. And I miss Floyd I wish he was still here but it just seems like--you
know--when he was present he brought kind of this serenity to you know
wherever he was, you know, so...But uh, yeah. So…
[Melanie]
So how would you describe Grand Rapids Native American community to
somebody who's never been here or to a Native American person from another
part of the country? Like what would you--How would you characterize?
[Hunter]
Oh my gosh. Uh, Diverse? [Laughter]
[Melanie]
Yeah?
[Hunter]
Um
[Melanie]
In what sense?
[Hunter]
I don't know--you know--it was... I--you know. It--it...um… I think it just seem like I
was sort of in my own little world. It seemed like growing up and what was going
on with, you know, like Grand Rapids Inter-tribal Council. It was almost like I
thought that was like almost the only thing that existed in the Grand Rapids
Anishinaabe community. And I knew there's a lot of people. You know, sort of on
the outskirts and stuff. We would just kind of like would never see them. You
9|Page
�know and I remember kind of almost growing up in a way where I felt like, almost
like some resentment towards them because why aren't they speaking up? Why
aren't they getting involved? I mean there are so much going on that we needed
to stand up and fight for and they were… they were nowhere to be present. You
know, and it was just interesting. you know and just almost seemed like there
was two different social classes of our own people. Those that were familiar and
identified on the West Side and then you had everyone else. You know, which is
kind of interesting. It was just kind of a weird dynamic.
[Melanie]
Did it feel like a generational thing? Or an individual choice? Or something else?
[Hunter]
I just--well, I just think-- I think when people move to the city and away from our
traditional areas, it's like you know did they -- I mean maybe work just kind of
consumed everything, and family. You know raising family and doing work and-you know--but then you had you know sort of this other core group of families
that sort of were so involved in the Native Center, the Indian Center, you know-and trying to make decisions that would help our people that were in need-- you
know. So, that really had kind of a profound impact on me. I think, just kind of
how I guess it shaped me--assisted in shaping me in a direction that I would--you
know--Like even stuff that I'm doing now and all. With these trainings for these
different issues and then even my regular position. In terms of working with tribes
in the United States that are trying to implement programs that will help reduce
suicide, and substance abuse. It's been kind of my--I guess my life's mock work
'casue its going on twenty-eight years now. Or will be twenty-eight years next
year. I mean that's--I don't know, and it's going fast.
[Melanie]
It goes fast.
[Hunter]
Yeah.
[Melanie]
So what we're some of those issues. Just thinking about the seventies as much
as you remember the seventies, the eighties, and nineties. What were some of
those real pressing issues?
[Hunter]
Well, you know growing up I think it's not something anything necessarily that I
read. I think it's just something that is either innate or I just knew that what I was
seeing with a lot of families and the struggles and sort of what they would
consume their time with. You know, and I think that in combination, you know the
crap they were teaching us in public school, will hurt people. I think you know it's
just like this isn't--what's going on here? This isn't who we are!
[Melanie]
What were you taught in school about your people?
[Hunter]
Weren’t taught anything about it! You know we talk a lot about Michigan. And I'm
10 | P a g e
�not sure if anything has really changed so much. Because the focus wasn't on
the Michigan Native history and you know. But I think a lot of that for me, some of
the substance abuse concerns, and drug concerns, the incarceration. You know
it's like there's just, I think it just kept gnawing at me. Why is this happening?
Why is this happening so much? And, and also understanding that culturally or
traditionally this isn't who we aspire to be, this isn't who we are. But, you know,
and then having sort of this anger at the United States. I mean you know just the
treatment of our people and the violation of our treaty rights. Violation of treaties,
period. I mean there was you know, it was kind of robotic in some ways going to
public school back and then the same time having this this other stuff that I was
carrying with me.
[Hunter]
And I think you know the hardest thing was. You know, what the hell can I do
about it? I mean you know, you can't just make things you know disappear and
go back in time. You know, start over, change the course history. Although if I
could I probably would! But, that part is really just like I think has eaten at me
over the years. I remember one of my family members, and he was like my
mom's generation and one of her cousins. I just remember him telling me, he was
like, he told me--"I didn't know any different." Like you know, the drinking and all
this kind of stuff was just like how, what they did. You know 'cause--I mean, well
it did make sense, because everything through government policy and even just
the ripping away of traditional family culture and structure. I mean you know it's
like everyone seemed like they're just kind of converted over to other stuff and
kind of left our traditions behind and it's like. I just--I mean I can't fit in that world. I
mean it’s hard for me to operate in that world. So, I think a lot of what motivated
me in school was if we're going to have any chance of making change, and
impacting change-- I'm going to have to go to school. Get my degree and sit at
the same table where I can speak up for-- A lot of times you're the only Native at
the table. Nobody else even knows this is what's going on.
[Hunter]
So, when you're at the table. I mean, you have to take that opportunity to speak
up. So that was a motivation. We're still dealing with a lot of the stuff. So, I could
kick a lot of our people’s butt. Kick them in the ass cause they still, some of our
people, the way we treat each other and a lot of this lateral violence and
oppression it’s like, you know what I mean. To me it’s like it’s so non-Native.
People think being Native is just carrying around a tribal card. And then they
don't know crap about their history, their culture, their ceremonies, their
traditions. And I remember I had one person do a lot of training for tribes, you
know, this person is so anti-tradition. You know, just saying, “this does not belong
here in our area.” I'm thinking in my head, “I'm pretty sure it was here a lot longer
than the religion you brought, or that you transitioned over to.” And when I think
that way or say those things it's not so much about passing judgment about
whatever they're comfortable with the terms of their own spirituality or religion. To
not even recognize our own? To not even acknowledge it? I mean I understand
11 | P a g e
�where it comes from because I do a lot of training-- you know understanding the
roots of what we see coming. You know in symptoms and some of the behaviors,
and stuff like that. But, you know--for tribal elected leaders to talk like that… It's
like, you know. But I think the only thing you can do is to continue like what we're
doing. To educate, to inform. You know, to do it in a way where it's okay to talk.
To, you know, have that conversation. It's not like I can change people's minds I
can only, hopefully, kind of instigate or help spark a fire with them to learn more.
You know, I mean I didn't grow up Christian, I didn't grow up Catholic, I didn't
grow up any-- and I'm really thankful that my mom didn't push me that way. And I
don't mean that in terms of being anti-Christian or anything. It's just that I'm so
glad that she was encouraging of me to-- she was supportive of me going down
the path that I needed to culturally.
[Hunter]
You know, there is a lot of us that gathered down in Larry Plamondon and we
had Frank Bushes and the (INAUDIBLE) and we were having ceremonies out
there. A lot of different people came from many different directions and
communities. And there was some of that traditional politics going on. You know,
where these teachings came from. I just laugh about it, it's just ‘cause-- you
know, it's funny. If someone tries to identify me as being traditional I mean it's like
what the hell is that? I'm just me. If I follow this-- I mean going to sweats, and I
mean what? Does that make me traditional? You know--Singing at the drum?
You know, dancing and stuff like that, and speaking about these things. I'm not
one for labels. I can't really stand them... I am no expert. I mean I will tell people
that. But I do have some information that I can share with you. Let's, the group, if
I'm doing a training with people, I try to do it in a way that we are going to talk
about the issues. We are going to are talk about the history. And it may make
you uncomfortable. But I'm going to try to make this time that we have as safe
and as comfortable as possible. So that we can have a meaningful conversation
and dialogue. Who knows maybe we can work together too and come up with
some strategies. So, that's kind of what I-- I guess that's kind of my walk in life.
But I really feel, I mean. The Creator just had this laid out for me and I have to
trust it. That everything will be okay. Even if sometimes that's a little scary.
[Melanie]
Can ask you a bit about the controversy and the sense of discomfiture? So, I
mean, it seems just from what I've been told and I've read that the ITC itself was
fairly controversial when I got started, in some ways.
[Hunter]
I wasn't there when it got started.
[Melanie]
Right. I mean you're too young to have been there when it got started. But what
did things look like from the time that you can remember what the organization
was like. I mean were there's still controversy surrounding the ITC end of the ‘80s
and the ‘90s. Within the--
12 | P a g e
�[Hunter]
Well, I didn't start with Grand Rapids Inter-tribal council until 1990.
[Melanie]
Did your family participate in activities?
[Hunter]
Yeah. Yeah. But I think uh-- you know the politics--excuse me Don't record that.
[Laughter] The politics I don't we didn't really get. I mean when I was working
there. I was aware of a lot of you know the politics. It was really about strong
personalities and people just you know not really. you know sometimes they
have these outbursts at their board meetings. But sometimes it's okay. I think at
the end of the day they got along and I think a lot of it was about how to-- what
direction are we going in, and how do we get there. And, so I think a lot of times
what our people struggling with is sort of that strategic planning.
[Hunter]
Just is… we have a lot of intelligent people, but I mean that's the skill. You know,
and so if you don't really train on how to do strategic planning, it's like throwing a
dart at a map and let's see where it lands, was kind of the planning sometimes.
So, I think some of the politics that entered in Grand Rapids Inter-Tribal Council
'course I think there were funding issues you know and how you know
sustainability as far as you know long term funding. You know I think this is
probably what caused a lot of stress. So--but, I think a lot of it just personalities
you know you have different families. you know course you know there's some
strong personality and some people thought we always knew how to do things
right. So, I mean it's that's just kind of what I remember. You know, from that
part. But when I started Wag Wheeler was the director.
[Melanie]
Right.
[Hunter]
Then Levi came on for-- after that and--I don't want to say too
much...[INAUDIBLE]
[Hunter]
You know, some of it is just styles. You know, for me I'm much better with styles
that are grounded and more humbled and humility. If somebody is kind of
arrogant and ego. You know, I can be nice and kind, but we're not going to be
hanging out. You know I just don't really have time for that. But, you know, I think
being young, too, at that time. I think the struggle for me in that environment is
like, you know, why are you fighting so much? You know, we got bring people
together -- find a way to bring them together. You know? And there were some
groups, there were some tribal groups that just didn't want to work together
either. Like they'd rather just stay out on their own. Excuse me. Sorry. And not
collaborate and not partner. And sometimes for me I struggled with that because
I wanted people to come together. Like, you know, that to me felt like that's who
we are. I mean that is who we are. So other groups that just--for whatever
reason. I know that some of them just didn't want to because they didn't like,
maybe people that were in charge or on the board. I mean they might come to
13 | P a g e
�meetings and give updates. But they didn't necessarily, as an organization, they
maybe were not involved with wanting to partner and collaborate. You know, for
myself that I kind of got along with everybody. But you know I'm sure is people
like Lin that just can't stand me. And kick me in the (INAUDIBLE), more than ten
times. But--and it's okay.
[Melanie]
Sure.
[Hunter]
I mean that's, you know.
[Melanie]
When did the Inter-tribal Council come apart?
[Hunter]
Around 1995.
[Melanie]
And you were active in the council right through that period.
[Hunter]
I was actually. When Grand Rapids Inter-tribal council folded. They turned over
the management of our program, which was like, the Native American Prevention
Services-- Community Services. Over to-- under Grand Rapids Public schools for
a year. So, because we are also in an alternative education Grand Rapids Public
School building. And so, they kind of, somehow made an arrangement or
agreement with Grand Rapids Public Schools. And so Kendra Simon, on paper,
was sort of in charge. But then the Inter-tribal Council of Michigan out of Sault
Ste. Marie. Up until the time that I left to work for Saginaw Chippewa Tribe in
2000 they were managing and supervising our programs out of Lexington
building out of the old offices of Grand Rapids Inter-tribal Council.
[Melanie]
So did it become part of the Native American education programs at GRPS, or
something else? I don't--
[Hunter]
No, it just was in the interim around 1995 for a year. It was just under Grand
Rapids Public Schools for a minute. Then it was under the umbrella of Inter-tribal
Council of Michigan Incorporated. Whose headquarters is in Sault Ste Marie. And
that stayed that way until--I guess whenever Inter-tribal Council was no longer
managing that program.
[Melanie]
Why did the ITC come apart?
[Hunter]
I don't know. I don't know.
[Melanie]
Was it a surprise at the time? Or did you kind of feel that it was coming.
[Hunter]
I mean I guess I didn't know that they were not going to do it anymore. But you
know and that wasn't the reason why I left. You know. There was just a better
14 | P a g e
�opportunity somewhere else.
[Melanie]
Where did you go in ‘95? And then af--
[Hunter]
In 2000.
[Melanie]
In 2000 was when you went to work for the Saginaw and Chippewa.
[Hunter]
In Mount Pleasant.
[Melanie]
Okay. Cool.
[Melanie]
So after the ITC kind of shuttered its doors, if you would, what replace it? What
did people do? What did youth groups do?
[Hunter]
Actually, I think it went under Grand River Band of Ottawa's. The Native
American Prevention Community Services part. And then eventually went over to
Family Outreach. But after I moved Mount to Pleasant, I sort of lost connection of
all the happenings that was going on with that program. I would hear things.
Who’s running it now. Or who’s under what umbrella. Or what it was under. I just
you know--Once I moved to Mount Pleasant, just cut ties with it and had to focus
on raising a family up there and working.
[Melanie]
So how do you think the Native American the community in and around Grand
Rapids has changed over the past twenty-eight years or so.
[Hunter]
Oh gosh. Well I think with the more tribes that were recognized and then when
gaming started happen for those tribes too. I think it seem like they were some
them were just interested in just having their own programs. Honestly, I mean
Kent County might be in some tribes’ service delivery area. But I can really only
think of one tribe that actually has an office. And I don't think any of the other
eleven--I could be wrong. The other eleven federally recognized tribes actually
have services at they are offering at that office in Grand Rapids. To me, I think
there is so much change and so much shift within the tribes themselves. The
idea of them having a coming together to have a Native American center, or
partnering with other tribes to have a center per se in Grand Rapids. I just don't
think it's even on their radar. You would need someone or group to try and
establish and launch that themselves. I know there's been some efforts. I don't
know exactly where they are at anymore with that. You know-- I know that there
was talk trying to get their own building and their own place for people to come
together. But I do think that people, depending on the cause or issues or event
will still come together to support. But a lot of families have changed. Although in
some ways they are still connected to the old families that may have moved back
home. You know, to the reservation.
15 | P a g e
�[Melanie]
Has there been a lot of families that have done that in the past twenty-five years
or so?
[Hunter]
I think so. And either that or have -- some of the elders have passed away. You
know. So, then I guess whatever becomes or doesn't become--beyond. You
know--Lin.
[Melanie]
It's really all up to Lin, isn't it? [Laughter] No pressure.
[Hunter]
So, yeah. So, I don't know. I mean, you know, and I think once my son graduates
from school. He's a junior now in high school. There is a possibility that--could
move back down this way. But I don't know what be I'll doing. If I do. But then we
have some other federal efforts that could possibly impact you know the direction
I am going to, so...
[Melanie]
Well, tell me about your citizenship, and your tribal identity too. That was
something I didn't ask you early on.
[Hunter]
Yeah, well I'm on the board for Saginaw Swan Creek Black River Band of
Chippewa. It's a federal historic treaty tribe that was unlawfully terminated. So,
we are working on efforts to reaffirm our federal recognition. And get back the list
of federal tribes. You know we're hopeful that because of precedents already
been set. Six other-- six or seven-- other Michigan tribes have been restored.
Based on that same language that we were terminated under. So, you know--but
it costs money too. And you know to fight in federal court and litigate, and/or hold
back other tribes that may not want to see us be successful.
[Melanie]
And why not?
[Hunter]
I'm going to- And people may disagree--I think it comes down to gaming. And
tribes that are in fear or threatened about their share of the market-- probably
have a fear that you know because our historic treaty territory is pretty large. You
know, I don't want to go too much detail about it--But, we feel very confident. We
have had meetings in D.C. and those have been promising. And the more
research that we did on our history and our case is just like-- What's really sad is
that there are people within a certain tribe who became aware of their own
history, that either they borrowed or stole for their own benefit. Which impacted
us and even once they became aware of who they really are--they stayed quiet
and they remain quiet to this day. And we know who they are, I mean we've done
our research. We know the names and who was on council at that time. Some of
them keep getting re-elected to council. But that’s all going to come out, you
know. We're just trying to correct a wrong. But then also descend from the Grand
River Bands of Ottawa and-- They're actually seeking federal recognition also! I
16 | P a g e
�sometimes, I got to pinch myself because it's like I cannot believe I live in an age,
where we're still fighting for--to be acknowledged in that way. And, you know,
some of these tribes that did get recognized--they were like created tribes. They
don't have federal historic treaties that they even signed. And somehow--well, we
know how-- Both through federal policy, and-- I don't know. Backroom deals, or
whatever. And it's just--And it's really sad. I don't know. I sometimes, I think about
what would our ancestors tell us today if they were here. To give us a message.
You know, and sometimes I feel like I was born wrong--in the wrong century.
[Hunter]
You wake up every day and you're kind of reminded of where your place is in this
society. You do the best that you can, but it's just very clear that our-- or most of
us...many of us...that our values just don't mesh well culturally with other
societies. And I mean I live in a pretty humble home I have two thousand five
truck I dive. I'm okay with that. Money and materials are just not my thing. I
mean, I do good enough. Support myself and my boys. I try to make things right.
That's what really drives and motivates me. I just kind of feel like some of the
people like even you know like American Indian Movement and some different
people that continue to speak up and fight. Those are my--those are the people I
look up to. I've always kind of told people you can pray. Praying is good. I'm a
praying man. But you can't just pray, you have to pray and then have action. If
you think about whether it's Martin Luther King or Gandhi or Dennis Banks. All
these people, I mean--they didn't just pray! They didn't just go to ceremonies-They also knew that they had to walk, they had to march, and they had to speak
up. And we just have too many people who are quiet and silent or don't want to
get involved. Or maybe they just aren't driven by the same values or things that
we wanna see restored Like our language, like our traditions, like our culture. So,
It's you know? I guess we do come together we need to. Standing Rock is an
example. But you know even before that with the Michigan Indian Tuition Waiver
you know being on the capitol steps in Lansing. Trying to fight to keep that. And
now they've even restricted so much that if you're not enrolled in a federally
recognized tribe you don't get it anyways.
[Melanie]
Right.
[Hunter]
So for people like me, and hundreds or thousands of others that aren't federally
recognized tribes, and yet you know they are Anishinaabe you're screwed.
[Melanie]
Right.
[Hunter]
And I remember going to a meeting that was the-- and I hope you are watching
this someday. But it was the United Three Fires--United uh...
[Melanie]
The United Tribes of Michigan?
17 | P a g e
�[Hunter]
Yeah, the United Tribes of Michigan. And I actually happened to be at the
meeting where they voted on whether to go along with the changes on the
Tuition Waiver. I was the only one that spoke up and said "what about the tribes
that are not recognized?" And it's not about question on blood quantum or
anything like that. It's just that they're not recognized-- I mean you're just going to
leave them out? And basically, I was told by your former chief Frank
Ettawageshik there is no such thing in state recognized tribes. And that in order
to save the Michigan Indian Tuition Waiver--its either go along with these
changes, or we lose it.
[Hunter]
I get that to a point. But it's just like--It don't feel right. It doesn't feel right and
those things--God, I mean the tops that we ever had for the number of Native
students even accessing it was maybe, in the whole state, maybe like three
thousand. And the millions and billions of dollars that the state gets from the
tribes, from the gaming, you're saying you cannot set aside enough to just leave
it be?
[Melanie]
Right.
[Hunter]
I mean, I just, that don't feel right. And I'm a feeling kind of a person. That just
does not feel right to me. And it still doesn't. The injustice by the United States
government with these policies that forced tribes to get terminated and/or going
through the bureaucracy and red tape. I mean--it's not right.
[Melanie]
Gotcha there.
[Hunter]
I don't have much more say, but-
[Melanie]
I wanted to ask you what keeps you going. So, you know she said this was a
long fight. What keeps you going? And what advice would you have for
somebody who wants to speak up?
[Hunter]
Honestly, I mean-- I mean we're always the one person in a group. Like when I
came to Grand Valley State. Like one Native American student in the whole
damn program. I hope it's okay just to speak freely.
[Melanie]
Yeah, yeah.
[Hunter]
So you feel like your representing your whole damn nation.
[Melanie]
Right.
[Hunter]
Who’s going to do it if you don't? If you don't step up? Who’s going to do it? I
mean-- [Clears throat] Damn it… I just think about everything that our ancestors
18 | P a g e
�gave up-- You know, we didn't ask--We didn't ask for us to be treated this way.
So, we have to keep fighting. I don't know maybe we're not going about
necessarily most efficient or effective ways. You know, but we have to keep
trying. Generally, I’m just not a person who can just sit and watch things, you
know, happen. And I try to make some kind of a difference. I have three sons. If
don't teach them who will? It's my responsibility, nobody else's. I take that to
heart. I'm so thankful that they love who they are, as an Anishinaabe. They sing
and dance and go to ceremony. they just love being Anishinaabe. And I know
that they will fight for what they need to.
[Hunter]
They were out there standing [INAUDIABLE] they were there.
[Melanie]
Alright Hunter we're rolling again. I'm sorry.
[Hunter]
No, that's alright.
[Melanie]
Tell me about your sons.
[Hunter]
Yeah, I just--I mean If I don't teach them and share with them. I mean I just feel
like they'll just get lost. Like a lot of our people, they just get lost. It's so easy to
get distracted and being consumed by money, by materials. That what is really
important. So, yeah. There is a great deal of responsibility.
[Melanie]
So was there anything that you would like to say for the record that I didn't ask
you about that you didn't say already.
[Hunter]
Get off your ass people!
[Linda]
That's the advice?
[Melanie]
It's good advice.
[Hunter]
I-uh...That is such a deep question. I feel like… I don't know like… Don't you wish
that tribes with money was sort of incentivized? Like the more language, the
more culture, the more traditions you learn. I know some people would say that
well it isn't genuine. They're just doing it for that. Our language is just so
beautiful. I mean what I know of the language its beautiful. That's always a been
dream of mine. I mean I use to sit with my grandparents even though you know
they spoke the language. But they wouldn't speak it in front of us. They didn't
teach you know like my mom, my uncles, and aunts. but whenever I would go to
their house and visit with them--I asked them questions. They taught me. I still
have all the notes that I took. Yeah, you know. So, you know. And this wasn't
post-high school this was while I was growing up. Because I just wanted to know.
It was at that time that one of my lifelong goals was to become fluent in our
19 | P a g e
�language. That's still a goal of mine. I really am trying to set myself up now.
Where I can either try, like after my son's done with high school, maybe live with
the family. So that's all you know, all you hear. So, I can immerse myself.
Because I think I know that the more language increases more understanding of
who we are because our language is so sacred that it opened up those doors
and windows of understanding. At a spiritual level. So that's what I want to make
happen. For myself. I wish the boys would, like my son now, like in high school
they have an agreement with the Saginaw Chippewa Tribal College. So, he
actually is taking a language class at the Tribal College
[Melanie]
Oh! That's great.
[Hunter]
While he's in high school. I hope he doesn't stop learning. They are probably are
tired of me hearing this it's going to be up to them how much gets passed down
to the generation after them their own children. Just as much as it's my
responsibility to teach my boys what I know and encourage and support that no
one else can do it. It feels--it feels like a mountain. It feels like everything is so
stacked against everything we've lost and are trying to get back but I just you
know and it's really sad to see how some of our people--It's just not important.
And they don't want to go that level. So, we'll see what happens.
[Melanie]
Thank you.
[Hunter]
Yeah. I was worried that I might shed a tear
[Melanie]
It's stuff that matters. That's okay.
[Lin]
You know I make you cry all the time.
[Hunter]
You do, Lin. I miss you, you know.
[Melanie]
Lin, did you have anything to ask Hunter as we wrap up?
[Linda]
No, not really.
[Melanie]
Okay. Put you on the spot
[Linda]
Nothing that needs to be saved for posterity. [Laughter]
[Melanie]
Okay this concludes the interview.
20 | P a g e
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Gi-gikinomaage-min Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Native American Advisory Council
Grand Valley State University. Kustche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews with members of Grand Rapids' urban Native American population collected as part of the Gi-gikinomaage-min Project: Defend Our History, Unlock Your Spirit.
Translated from Anishinaabemowin, the original language of this area, Gi-gikinomaage-min means "We are all teachers." This is the name our project team choose to convey to the Native American community that through our stories and experiences, we are all teachers to someone. As we share those stories, we are allowing for our next generations to experience the past.
Grand Rapids’ Native American community grew dramatically in the last half of the 20th century as a result of a little-known federal program that still impacts American Indian lives today. Called the Urban Relocation Program, it created one of the largest mass movements of Indians in American history. The full scope of this massive social experiment and its impact on multiple generations of Native Americans remains largely undocumented and unexplored.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015/2016
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Gi-gikinomaage-min Project
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Subject
The topic of the resource
Indians of North America
Indians of North America--Michigan
Indians of North America--Education
Potawatomi Indians
Bode'wadmi
Ojibwa Indians
Anishinaabe
Navajo Indians
Dine'e
Cherokee Indians
Tsagali
Aniyunwiya
Archaeology
Mound-builders
Hopewellian culture
Indian arts--North America
Personal narrativse
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. Special Collections & University Archives
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DC-10
Format
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audio/mp3
video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Sound
Moving Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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DC-10_Genia_Hunter_1117
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Genia, Hunter
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-11-29
Title
A name given to the resource
Hunter Genia interview (video and transcript)
Description
An account of the resource
Hunter Genia is a member of the Saginaw Swan Creek Black River Band of Chippewa. He was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan and holds degrees in criminal justice and social work. In this interview, he discusses his family history, the Grand Rapids Native community, and Inter-tribal Council.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Shell-Weiss, Melanie (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Ojibwa Indians
Anishinaabe
Personal narratives
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Indians of North America
Indians of North America--Michigan
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Gi-gikinomaage-min Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9d3c7939b6def03df441098b36e2b3e0.pdf
a7bc6821fdcc009e64780c4f480836cf
PDF Text
Text
Native American Oral Histories
Gi-gikinomaage-min Project
Interview: James Wagner "Wag" Wheeler
Interviewer: Belinda Bardwell and Levi Rickert
Date: April 23, 2015
[ [Lin]
This is an interview with Wag Wheeler on April twenty-third at one forty
downtown Grand Rapids in the--
[Levi]
Riverview Center Office Building.
[Lin]
I'm Belinda Bardwell and this is Levi Rickert. This is an interview. Oral history
interview. Oral record of the urban Native experience of the Grand Valley State
University Gi-gikinomaage-min Defend Our History Project, Unlock Our Spirit
Project.
[Whispers: Put that thing on.]
[Lin]
Can we have you introduce yourself and spell your name?
[Wag]
James Wagner Wheeler. Wag Wheeler for short. W-A-G The last name is W-HE-E-L-E-R.
[Lin]
[INAUDIBLE] Can you tell me a little about where you were born?
[Wag]
I was born in [INAUDIBLE] Oklahoma in nineteen thirty-five.
[Lin]
Oklahoma?
[Wag]
Mhm.
[Lin]
So, when did you come, or move, or trans-locate to Grand Rapids?
[Wag]
I came here nineteen seventy-two. I had a fellowship at the University of
Michigan. To work on a master's degree in Public Administration. That was
sponsored by the National Association of Public Administrators. Their minority
division. And I got a scholarship to come finish my master's degree at the
University of Michigan.
[Lin]
Okay. Are you affiliated with a tribe?
[Wag]
I am Cherokee from Oklahoma. Eastern Cherokee.
[Lin]
Okay. How would you describe yourself concerning your ethnicity or your
identity?
�[Wag]
[Wag]
I like to say I'm Native American. I was not brought up as Native American. I was
born during the time when they used Black, White, or Other. And we were always
Other on our birth certificates, and licences, and all that kind of thing.
So, I'd always identified as white with Native American blood. Until I realized how
twisted that was, as opposed to being Native American blood. Or Native
American with white blood.
[Lin]
So describe your connection with the Grand Rapids area.
[Wag]
When I was at the University of Michigan [Ahem, excuse me] in nineteen
seventy-two there was a student over there from Grand Rapids her name was
Chet [INAUDIBLE]. I was working at the university while I was going to school in
an office called the Opportunity Office. And the purpose of that was to help
Native Americans and other minority students make the transition from high
school to college. Particularly, the kids that came from rural areas. I went to work
there with the help of a guy that I worked with in Oklahoma, by the name of Tony
Genia from Charlevoix. While I was there I met Chet Eagleman, he came into the
office I think to talk about some financial aid or something, I don't remember
exactly. I had known Chet, I had knew about him, because there is a college in
Oklahoma called Bacone, it's basically an Indian College in Muskogee,
Oklahoma. I had been up there playing ball and refereeing and all that. I had met
him in the crowd or something. I just remembered the name. So, Chet came into
the office and we got to be pretty good friends. And he told me that they had this
agency over here, Grand Rapids Inter-tribal Council. That had been established I
think in nineteen seventy-one or seventy-two. They had a director of the agency
with the name of [Short interruption] Eddie White Pigeon. But he was leaving,
and Chet asked if I was interested in maybe coming to work after I was got
through with my program. The program that I was in was a two-year program.
[background noise] So, I told him yes, that I would consider it. I was in the
process of getting a divorce from my wife in Oklahoma. When we talked further, I
told Chet, I would like to apply for the position. I just wanna finish school and I
would give him one or two years, but I wanted to do some traveling and some
research on the Cherokee people. So, when I finished school I came over and
was interviewed for the executive directors position. They assigned me, or
appointed me. I think that was in seventy-five somewhere around May or June. I
can't remember exactly what the date was. So, I became quite familiar with
Michigan and Grand Rapids. At that time, they had-- there was quite a
controversy going on throughout the country with Native and non-Native people.
Particularly white people there was a take over a place in South Dakota called
Wounded Knee, South Dakota. There were several people from Grand Rapids
that were in that movement. Which was initiated by the American Indian
Movement. I got real familiar with that and got caught up in that type of situation.
At the time there used to be a bar on Bridge Street called Cat's Paw and it was a
�Native American bar, basically.
[Wag]
I was here probably about a month or so and there was a bunch of Native people
in the bar, got into a fight, and the police were called in and there was a whole lot
of clubbing and slapping around and that type of thing. I think they arrested four
people that they were charging with disturbing the peace. I don't remember what
the charges were, but it was something to do with disturbing the peace and drunk
and disorderly, and all kinds of things. That was my first encounter with the
Grand Rapids Police and the city basically. From there I just got very familiar with
it. Hired some people to help us put some programs together and start building
the agency. At that point in time the agency had a grant from Office of Native
American Programs and the grant was for forty thousand dollars, and it was to
build an Indian center and to hire some staff. Develop some programs, national
programs, state programs, and county programs. That type of thing.
[Lin]
You mentioned you wanted to do some research on your Cherokee heritage,
were you able to do that?
[Wag]
No.
[Lin]
No?
[Wag]
No. I still haveta'. I met people that were familiar with the Cherokee movement.
My people were in Tennessee, Georgia, and Kentucky. Actually my ancestors
are the ones that had gone to Jackson, President Jackson, to try to stop the
removal of our people from the southeastern part of the country and into
Oklahoma. They met with President Jackson, he denied that they could stay in
Georgia, the Cherokee people, and the other tribes that were there. They signed
the treaty back then, as well as today, I think they had the Cherokee blood ball.
Which meant that if you did something that crippled or hurt the rest of the people
you signed your own death sentence. Out of five of my ancestors, when they
went back to Oklahoma there were four of them that were killed for signing that
treaty. Consequently they did move our people. So my people, my ancestors, left
that part of the country and moved down to Arkansas and Oklahoma basically
before the Trail of Tears and the rest of the people came on through the Trail of
Tears, basically.
[Lin]
So you graduated from Michigan.
[Wag]
Uh-huh.
[Lin]
What was your experience like there being Native? Or--
�[Wag]
[Wag]
It was--[Laughter] Well, [Clears Throat] When I was there, there was four of us.
Twenty Juniors--no. Paul Johnson who was an ex-football player there.
Paul was a Chippewa from Saginaw, and Tony Genia who was an Ottawa from
Charlevoix. Jim Ken Cannon was there and his brother John. They were from
North Port, that area. Together, the five or six of us--I think there was--George,
uh, Charles Pamp, Moose Pamp was over there. While he wasn't going to
school, he was working there in the school helping with us. So, we petitioned the
university to develop a Native American Indian Student Association. So, we
founded the Native American Student Association. There was a guy that worked
for the university by the name of George Goodman. Goodman. Goodman.
George was the mayor of Ypsilanti. African American, a wonderful, wonderful
person. He was over the opportunity to program that I worked for. So he was one
person that really helped push through the Native American Association that we
had established. We'd set up a library and developed some Native American
programs with some professors that were over there. One professor was a guy
from Oklahoma by the name of McCormick, Charles. Well, Edward McCormick.
Another one was a fella by the name of Felt. Professor Felt. I don't remember
what his first name was. But he was quite well known throughout the university
world for developing social--I think some social programs with the university and
things of that nature. So he was very supportive of us gettin' in there and it
became quite successful, we helped a lot of students. We had a lot of students
[Levi]
What was the time frame. The early nineteen seventies?
[Wag]
I was there from seventy-two to seventy-five. So that was probably seventythree.
[Levi]
Kay
[Wag]
The first year I was there. Because Tony Genia [Clears throat] in the two-year
program he had already been there a year, and he was already there when we
did all that. So, he left after I graduated the first year. So, it would have had to
been seventy-three.
[Levi]
We've had some Genia's here in Grand Rapids Hunter Genia, who you know.
[Wag]
Yeah.
[Levi]
Tony's his uncle? He talk about that connection?
[Wag]
Tony is relativity young. But I don't think they're real close realities.
[Levi]
Okay.
�[Wag]
[Levi]
I never really could find out from Hunter's mother.
Doris [INAUDIBLE]
[Wag]
I never really did figure out how they were related to him. But interestingly Tony
Genia from Charlevoix. Tony Genia from here.
[Levi]
Mm hm.
[Wag]
But then the program developed and I left over there, and I think it's still going.
[INAUDIBLE]
[Lin]
So, you grew up in Oklahoma?
[Wag]
I grew up in Oklahoma.
[Lin]
Went to high school there?
[Wag]
Yes.
[Lin]
Anything striking from your high school memories?
[Wag]
Yeah, I couldn't speak our language in high school. Couldn't speak our language
in school at all. Which it didn't bother me too much, because we didn't speak it at
home. I never learned the language. My parents were brought up in it's better not
to show. [INAUDIBLE] To try to assimilate into the majority of society. Had uncles
that went to mission school. My mother's brothers went to mission school. My
dad was an only child. My mother was one of fifteen. So, I had my uncles and
aunts to play with quite a bit. We always celebrated different types of, we didn't
call it the ghost supper back then, but it was always around the time of
Thanksgiving. 'Cause that's a harvest time as you know. With my mother's big
family. We celebrated it with her family more so than just by ourselves. I have
three sisters and a brother. Brother and sister are old and two sisters younger.
[Levi]
So separate from Thanksgiving there was a dinner celebration. Similar to what
you see in Michigan. We call them ghost suppers.
[Wag]
Yeah, yeah. It was similar to them. I can't remember what they're called. I don't
remember. But it was all right there, about the same time.
[Levi]
It was honoring the harvest and honoring the ancestors?
[Wag]
Yes. The spirits that are on their final trip. That type of thing, final passage.
�[Lin]
[Clears throat] Did you have friends or other people in your high school or
growing up that were Native?
[Wag]
Oh yeah. Yeah. And what I meant to say is, I've seen kids get slapped for
speaking to each other in the language. And screamed at: "You can't say that.
You can't say those dirty words. That dirty language." Or whatever they called it,
you know. What bothered me, I had real good friends that'd get slapped. Back
then you couldn't do anything. Today, you'd get fired. But back then you just took
it and that was it.
[Lin]
So this was a public school?
[Wag]
Yes.
[Levi]
Now, speak to the difference, Wag, where you grew up in Oklahoma. Now, I
understand they don't have reservations, per se, they have tribal lands. Is that
correct?
[Wag]
Mhm.
[Levi]
And where you grew up, was it more of a rural area? Or urban?
[Wag]
It was more of a rural. The city I grew up in was the county seat of Sequoyah
County.
[Levi]
Okay.
[Wag]
It's right below Adair county, which is heavily populated by natives, and Cherokee
County, which is where the center of the Cherokee nation was. It is the
furthermost county, Cherokee County, in Oklahoma. It's right bordered by the
Arkansas river to the south. Across the river is Choctaw County, and to the
northeast or northwest is Creek County, and the southwest is Choc--
[Levi]
Chickasaw, isn't it?
[Wag]
Chickasaw
[Levi]
Chickasaw.
[Wag]
Creeks and Shawnees and all that throughout that whole--You know, you've
been there before--And, we were governed by the laws of the state, you know
here it's the U.S. Marshals. But back there the land--We call it the reservation,
well the reservation is made up of about twelve or thirteen counties.
The county government takes care of the county and the city government take
[Wag]
�care of the cities. The state government, you know, were under the auspices of
all those laws. Whereas opposed here the people have some of their own judges
and own law enforcement and backing of the U.S. Marshals and that type of
thing.
[Levi]
What Indian country are you--Cherokee, okay.
[Wag]
Yep.
[Levi]
You know, tribal police and…
[Wag]
Well, we didn't have any tribal police. They have the now.
[Levi]
They do now. Yes.
[Wag]
They do have them now. But that came after--
[Levi]
Well, that's interesting.
[Wag]
They came after I left.
[Levi]
Okay.
[Lin]
So your experience in public high school in Oklahoma, and then your college
experience in Michigan--
[Wag]
Well,I went to college in Oklahoma also.
[Lin]
Was there a difference in shifting from the public school atmosphere to the
college there to the University of Michigan.
[Wag]
From the college there to the University of Michigan that's quite a difference. Ann
Arbor is a very, very conservative community. Very conservative. The university
is very, very liberal. So, you can imagine what that created in that community.
Where I grew up it was somewhat conservative. Not a lot of liberal activity there.
We have a democratic party. [Laughs] But, I don't know if it was in charge of my
time in school. But, it was very different. I have to tell you a story. When I [clears
throat] started enrolling at the University of Michigan, now I'm from Oklahoma,
I'm close to forty years old, thirty seven years old at that time. My concern, our
concern back there with Marijuana, or as we called it local weed, our concern
was our cows eating it because they would eat the local weed and they'd walk
into fences and into trees. [Chuckles from group]
So, my grandfather's like: "Go out there into the pasture and cut up all that local
weed. Get rid of that local weed. Pile it over there and burn it. That was my
[Wag]
�experience with it. Gay people were people that were really happy. Okay? So, if
you said that someone was really gay, that means they are really laughing and
responsive, or something like that. Enrolling at the University of Michigan, we're
in line and there's probably two thousand kids ahead of me. Every five or ten
steps there would be people passing out brochures. Women's Liberation
Movement, the African-Americans, the Society for Democratic Society brochures,
Gay Society. I'm taking all these brochures--[Levi Laughing] reading these
brochures and I get to the point on the gay where it talks about homosexuality.
Now, I'm from Oklahoma. Nobody at Michigan [INAUDIBLE] sent me a line. First
thing I do is I put those things in my coat. So nobody can see me reading 'em,
because I am so embarrassed-- [INAUDIBLE] [Laughter from Levi and Wag]
Peak at it every so often. But, that was my experience when I came up here.
Four letter words in class, the 'F' word was common from our professors.
Absolutely common [Phone vibrating in background] that was something I was
never used to. It was quite an experience for an old guy from conservative
Oklahoma. [Laughter] The University of Michigan [INAUDIBLE] It was quite an
experience. There was quite a bit of adjusting I had to do. [INAUDIBLE] It was a
good time, I enjoyed it.
[Lin]
So, you started the Native American Student Association?
[Wag]
Association.
[Lin]
So what type of activities did you do or create while you were there? Because
you created NASA, correct?
[Wag]
Yes.
[Lin]
So what are some of the first things you did?
[Wag]
The first thing we did, we brought in books. They gave us a room over there to
set up a library of Native American books. There were very few there. There was
a lot of new writers. Vine Deloria, comes to mind, had written several books.
Other people had written quite a few books. We brought them in because a lot of
kids that were there, Native kids, wanted to do some papers on Native
Americans. So there wasn't a whole lot of research there, if there was it was very
twisted. That's one of the first things, we brought in some speakers. We brought
in Angela Davis. I don't know if you know who that is. Angela Davis was a activist
from California that was very supportive of the liberation army. The Black
Panthers she was very supportive of the Black Panthers, and all of that. So, it
was very controversial.
We had a lot of kids showed up for her talk. But we brought in quite a few
speakers. We brought in Vine Deloria, Angela Davis, I think there are two-three
other people that we brought in from around the country. I can't think of it now,
[Wag]
�who they were. That's what we'd do, we'd bring in speakers and started a pow
wow over there. They had had the pow wow a year before, that was university
sponsored. So, I helped work on the pow wow that year along with Paul Johnson
and Moose Pamp, and some other people. Tony Genia, and Jim Kin Cannon and
his brother John. Several people, some from Grand Rapids. I think that there
were some [INAUDIBLE] from Mt. Pleasant. I can't remember all the rest of them,
but we had quite a few students.
[Lin]
Did you think that it was gonna last?
[Wag]
Yeah we did. Yeah we did. I thought that most of the world was Haitians, you
know that were developed back then that were gonna last. But I think with the
development of the casinos, I think the federal government and county
government, and all that used that to say that you got your own money.
[INAUDIBLE] We all make so much from the casinos. [Laughter]
[Lin]
So does it make you feel good that that's still…
[Wag]
It does…
[Lin]
[INAUDIBLE]
[Wag]
I had a girl come over here from university one time. I used to collect Native
American baskets. Quill boxes--and [INAUDIBLE] baskets. And, I picked up a
hamper from a guy that was probably a twenty-six inch, twenty-seven inch
hamper. That was close to a hundred years old. I know the person that bought it
paid fifteen dollars for it because it had the price in the lid. It came Petoskey, and
the girl came over and her last name was [pause] was...I can't pronounce it...I
was gonna say McDonald, but that wasn't...Maldonado ...
[Lin]
[INAUDIBLE]
[Wag]
I can't remember.There are some Maldonado's from down and around here I
think. She came over, found out that I had these baskets. And, she came over to
buy it, because they were just starting the casino, I think. Just building a casino in
Petoskey. [Clears throat] And, they were having an exhibit up there with some of
the artwork. She came over and I asked her about it, what they were going to do
with it, and all that. She said that they were trying to get some of the older
artwork and put it there. So instead of selling it to her, I gave her four or five
baskets that came from up there.
They really appreciated it because they hadn't had any money back then. As far
as I know, it's still in their museum. Unless, she took it and sold it someplace.
[Laughter] Put it in her house, I don't know. I don't know why I'm jokin' 'bout that. I
think she was a law student.
[Wag]
�[Lin]
Allie.
[Levi]
Mhm.
[Wag]
What's her name?
[Lin]
Allie Maldonado.
[Wag]
Yes, that's who it was.
[Lin]
She's our current judge. Chief Judge.
[Wag]
In Petoskey?
[Levi]
For Little Traverse.
[Lin]
For Little Traverse.
[Levi]
Bay Bands.
[Wag]
No kidding.
[Levi]
What year would that have been back when the casino would have started? Was
it ninety...?
[Wag]
It just started when she was a senior.
[Levi]
[INAUDIBLE] Ninety-seven that they started in Petoskey.
[Lin]
The first one? Probably.
[Levi]
Yeah, right around there. I think. The bowling alley. [Laughter]
[Lin]
Yeah, the bowling alley.
[Wag]
Yeah. Yeah she--I remember she came in and said I am from the Native
American Student Association--University of Michigan. She said: "Do you know
what that is?" I said, "I know very well what that is."
I told her that I was once there and helped founded it. She was surprised at that
because she did't know that, and I told her the story that [clears throat] Where I
lived...I lived in Solane, in a trailer park. On a state road that goes into Ann Arbor
from Solane that I used to go into the university everyday. And there's a small
airport out there that had some airplanes, you know the planes had the letters N-
[Wag]
�A-S-A. So…
[Levi]
[Laughter]
[Lin]
[Laughter]
[Wag]
So, we'd get those two and take them out there. And say: "You need to come up
here, we have rolling planes." [Laughter]
[Levi]
[Laughter] That's funny.
[Wag]
[Laughter] And kids really believed that until we got there. We can fly anywhere
you want to go. We have our own airplanes here. [Laughter]
[Levi]
That's good Indian humor. [Laughter]
[Lin]
[Clears throat] So, after you finished with an NPA, you went to the Inter-tribal
Council of Grand Rapids.
[Wag]
Yes.
[Lin]
You got that forty-thousand dollar grant.
[Wag]
Well, they had that. It was in existence when I came.
[Lin]
Oh. So what were some of the programs or specific things you did in the
community.
[Wag]
They just had some, really, advocacy programs. It wasn't anything that they
actually had [Laughter] Oh, man. [Laughter] They were trying to develop some
programs. At that point in time there was an agency here in town called The Owl-Indian Outreach. It was a substance abuse program, three or four blocks...a
couple of blocks...from our agency. So, they had that for the community. Then
there was a young man who worked for the agency by the name of Fred Chivis. I
think Fred Jr. and he was like an employee...Employment Specialist. So, he
would help people find jobs in the community. That's basically all they had--If I
remember right.
[Wag]
What I do remember is, I was here just about probably two months and the wife
of one of my board members kept coming in the office and screaming at
employees that I had, and they were mostly volunteers. So, I went to her
husband and I said: "You need to keep her out of there. And if you don't, I will.
'Cause I'm not gonna have people come in and scream at my employees." His
response was: "She talks too much." and I said: "Well, she can't do it here." So,
�he didn't do anything. And the next couple days she was back in there. And I
said: "You will leave, and you will not come back until you call and make an
appointment to come back in here, or I will physically remove you." So, she left
and starting that night for about three months, I got phone calls starting about
midnight, every night. Absolutely, every night. The calls would come starting
about midnight, and would last until four and five o'clock in the morning.
[Levi]
Wow.
[Wag]
And when I answered the phone there was always the same tape or record or
whatever it was. There used to be a song about the B.I.A, and the corruption of
the B.I.A, and it referred to the people working for the B.I.A. And the song was
directed at me, how corrupt I was, and all of that. 'Course I couldn't do anything
about it, and I didn't know who it was. Well, after about three months--Well,
during that time… After about another month, when all that started. I'm looking at
all the books, and everything. And I knew they had a forty-thousand dollar grant.
They're paying their director ten-thousand dollars. They're paying their assistant
director I think...like eight-thousand dollars. They had some other expenses that
amounted to about fifteen to twenty thousand dollars. I don't remember now what
they were. And, they hadn't paid their income taxes. They'd had their withholding
taxes. So, I start asking around about, you know: "What are you doing with your
withholding taxes?" They didn't even know what I was talking about. So, I ended
up calling--I have an accounting background, I got that in Oklahoma before I
came to Michigan. So, I call Cincinnati, and I said: "I'm with Grand Rapids Intertribal Council, and we haven't been sending you our payments for the withholding
taxes." And they said: "We don't know who you are." And I said: "It's an agency,
we've got some employees, we've been withholding money (taxes) and not
sending it to you." She said: "I don't have any record of that. What it your 501 C-3
number?" Or, your business number. And, I said: "I don't know, I haven't seen it
signed here." So, she looked a little bit farther and said: "You're not even a legal
organization, you don't even have your 501 c-3." So, I say: "Okay, what do I have
to do?" and she talked to be a little bit, and they had been trying to get that, the
agency had been trying to get their 501 c-3. What they did when they put in the
application, they had a 501 capital 'c' 3. And she said the 'c' has to be a small
letter. And I said: "That's it?" And she said: "Yes." So, I said: "Okay." So, I filled
out the application and sent it back in, and probably about a week or ten days
she called and she said we got the application.
You're now legal. And, do you have any idea how much you owe the federal
government? And I said: "No, I don't. I'm trying to figure that out." Ended up
being they owed the feds about six thousand dollars. [Silence] [Chuckles] I told
her, I said: "We don't have the money to pay, ya. You're gonna have to give me
some time to do that." Well they were very gracious about it, and all that. So, I
was dealing with that. I was dealing with the board president's--not board
president--one of the board member's wives. Her family, his family they were
[Wag]
�taking shots at me every way you can take a shot at somebody. I finally found out
that one of the persons that was calling my apartment. So, I drove by his house.
He was standing in the door way. I got out of the car and started up there and
then he disappeared. I had a pretty bad reputation as a street fighter. That
followed me from Oklahoma. I knocked on the door several time. Went back, and
got back in the car. Came to the office and called the house. And, I don't know
who answered. I said: "I wanna talk to blah, blah, blah [clears throat] So, he
came on the phone and I said: "I know you're the one who is calling. I'm gonna
tell you right now, if I get one more call, one call, I don't care what time of day it
is, I don't care if it's a man, woman, child, I don't care. I am kicking your ass. Big
time, every time I see you. And that ended all the calls.[Chuckle] So then, I just
had the family to fight. [Laughter] And you can't imagine the stories that were in
the paper.
[Lin]
About the Inter-tribal Council? Or about you?
[Wag]
About me. About the Council. About how much money I was making.
[INAUDIBLE] Think they pay me, I think they payed me twelve thousand dollars
that year.
[Levi]
Hmph.
[Lin]
Hmph.
[Levi]
Let's talk about you running the Indian--The Grand Rapids Inter-tribal Council.
Talk about the climate. With the shift, like in nineteen seventy-eight came the
American Indian Freedom--
[Wag]
[INAUDIBLE]
[Levi]
--Act. President Carter signed it. All of a sudden Indians could celebrate, practice
their ceremonial practices. Talk about what happened. Like with the drumming or
anything else that happened.
[Wag]
Well, we were trying to bring in drums, and trying to bring in some cultural
programs. Okay?
And if we brought a drum into the Inter-tribal I had people on my board, and
people in the community that would not--How you doin'
[Wag]
[Unknown Person]
How ya doin' stranger? [Wag] I've been good. That would come into the
agency. They wouldn't come into the agency if we had drum in there, if we had
feathers. They would not come in.
[Levi]
And these were?
�[Wag]
Native people.
[Levi]
Local American Indian, Native people.
[Wag]
Yes.
[Levi]
Who maybe because of their Christian belief system
[Wag]
Yes.
[Levi]
Would not…
[Wag]
Yes.
[Levi]
Even walk through the doors of Grand Rapids Inter-tribal…
[Wag]
Yes.
[Levi]
Because you wanted to bring the drum and the feathers.
[Wag]
And it wasn't just me. There were other people that wanted that. That's why we
were trying to do it.
[Levi]
Okay.
[Wag]
We had people in school. The drop out rate in public school was like seventy-five
percent, at that point in time--and probably still is... No, they wouldn't come in.
They wouldn't come in and I took all kinds of pot shots about it, you know.
Heathen. I was, which I probably am. [Laughter]
[Levi]
Practicing pagan religions, or whatever the set.
[Wag]
Yeah, practicing pagan religions. [Laughter]
[Levi]
So how long would you say that those sentiments continued?
[Wag]
Still do.
[Levi]
They still do.
[Unknown Person]
[Levi]
In fact, can I add something to that?
[Laughter] Why not.
�[Unknown Voice]
They're probably even stronger today than they were then.
[Levi]
Wow.
[Wag]
Yeah, they are.
[Unknown Voice]
Yeah they really are.
[Wag]
In many cases they are. Very strong today. Tell ya' a story about my--I met a girl
up here by the name of Linda Keyway. Well, at that time she was married, and I
had gone through a divorce. Linda Dixon was her name. We decided to get
married. I wanted to have a traditional Native American wedding as I could. I got
a hold of Eddie Banai, who is a holy man in Minnesota.
[Levi]
Mhm.
[Wag]
And Eddie started the Red School House there, along with some other people.
[Levi]
He's the author of the Mishomis book, Eddie Banai?
[Wag]
He is the author of the Mishomis book.
[Levi]
Correct, okay.
[Wag]
I ask Eddie if he would administer the vows for us. I got a brother and three
sisters. They've all been away from home, at different places in their lives.
Growing up and their jobs and things of that nature. My parents had always gone
to see them. I had been in Michigan for two years. My parents had never been up
here. So, I called them and told them I was getting married. Which my mother
was dead set against. She was against divorce. [Phone chiming in the
background] And I said: "I would really like for you to be here. You and my dad."
They're both Native people. Nobody is more Native than my dad. When they got
here, after about two or three months, when we got ready to get married.
The first thing my mother said to me when she got out of the car was: "What is
this Indian stuff you're doing?" [Crying]--Excuse me just a minute. [Clears throat]
That really hurts.
[Wag]
[Levi]
Wow. Church as soon as they married. Church after they married raised all us
kids in the Methodist church and she
[Wag]
[Clears throat] And I said to her: "Will you be here? But if you're not, I'm gonna do
this. And I'm okay with it if you're not. If you don't want to see me again. I'm okay
with that. But, I'd really love for you to be here." They did come and they enjoyed
�it. But I think she had a problem with it for a long time. She was brought up as a
Presbyterian which is just about as close to reform church as you can get. My
dad was brought up as a Methodist. She changed to the Methodist Church after
they married. Raised all of us kids in the Methodist Church. I heard all of the
hellfire and brimstone crap that all the rest of the people did. Had a real problem
with my parents not owning me. My dad was very supportive of me, and she
became very supportive of me. But that was a real trying time. Because not only
was I fighting people from this community, but I was fighting Grand Rapids Public
Schools, the county, the state, the feds, everybody. Because they didn't want
Indians to make any headway. They still don't. It got nasty, I mean it got really,
really nasty. And very, very trying on me. Because I didn't have much of support
anywhere. My second wife became an alcoholic, and we divorced. She got to kill
herself.
[Levi]
Damn.
[Wag]
But...
[Levi]
But the fights that you were having with… Let's just talk a little about with the
Grand Rapids Public Schools, or the county, the city. Were they fights for money,
funding for the Inter-tribal council. Were they fights… I know even today, and
we're in twenty fifteen, that this interview is taking place. But, sometimes we have
to fight for our very existence. 'Cause we are such a small number. When
compared to the total population. Talk about some of those fights.
[Wag]
Well, one of the biggest ones was with[clears throat] the public schools. It
became very apparent to me that our kids were dropping out of school. Falling
out, quitting, just forever. It became apparent that kids would go through school
until about seventh or eighth grade. And that's where they started. We found out
that in the seventh or eighth grade is when the kids were in, I think, their phys.
ed. classes. Where competition became very, very tough. And, these kids
seemed to have trouble with that competition.
[Levi]
The Native kids?
[Wag]
The Native kids. So they would just drop out of school. They would just quit
going. There's a building here in town, Lexington, where we ended up being
there. At the time I was here we operated out of West Side Apostle Church which
is at the corner of Straight and Bridge Street. But, there was a Native American
program at Lexington where they had some classes over there. I know that we
checked on them. I had a guy that I had hired, it was, I called it my Education
Director. He had a PhD. in Education. We found out that the two years prior to us
trying to help, or work with the schools they had enrolled twenty-two students the
first year not a kid earned a credit. They had enrolled fifteen kids the year that I'm
�talkin' about, and at that time nobody was earning any credits. So, I went to the
school, talked to the director of the education program. I said: "What do we need
to do? I've got people that can recruit students. Can we get some teachers?"
They said: "You recruit the students, we'll provide the teachers for ya'." Then I
said: "Okay". So, at the start of school [clears throat] I kept calling 'em 'bout two
or three days before school star--classes started, and said: "When are you gonna
get our teachers over here?"
[Levi]
So, no teachers?
[Wag]
No teachers. No teachers.
[Levi]
Wow.
[Wag]
And, we had a hundred and thirty-seven applications. Now, every one of those
applications amounted to, at that time, I think about, fourteen hundred dollars.
Monies at the public schools were good. We still didn't have any teachers. So, I
was sitting there and I got...something happened...I got really upset. So, I got the
applications and--I'm gonna use some curse words in here--I'm gonna use words
that I used with them.
[Lin]
Go ahead.
[Levi]
We've got good editors. [Laughter]
[Unknown person]
I'm sure it's something you never heard before, right? [Laughter]
[Wag]
So, I took those applications up there and I walked into, at the time, the
administration building was on the fifth floor. I walked into the fifth floor, this
young little white girl, receptionist was sitting there at the desk. And I said: "I
wanna see Phil Runkle(?)"
[Levi]
He was the superintendent of the schools.
[Wag]
He was the superintendent of the schools.
[Unknown person]
Yeah.
[Levi]
Yes.
[Wag]
And, she said: "He's in a meeting." I said: "I don't care where he is. I wanna see
him, and I wanna see 'im right now." And she said: "Well, I can't disturb 'im--" And
I said: "Let me tell you something honey-- [INAUDIBLE] put 'em down there.
�[Levi]
[Laughter]
[Wag]
Let me tell you something honey, if I don't see Phil Runkle(?) in two minutes, I'm
gonna tear this whole goddamn place up. Everything, I'm gonna break all the
windows, I'm gonna wreck this place. She got up--
[Unknown person]
And went and got Phil Runkle(?) [Laughter]
[Wag]
She went and got Jim--What was it...Farmer. Jim came out there. Well, he's the
one I'd been working with. Jim walked in, and he said [INAUDIBLE]-- I said: "You
son of a bitch. You stay away from me, or I'll knock your fucking head right off.
[Levi]
Wow.
[Wag]
Pardon the language. So, he backed off and I said: "I wanna see Phil Runkle(?)
or I'm gonna start." So, he called back, or one of them called back and Phil
Runkle(?)came out there and said: "Wag, what's going on?" I said: "You sons of
bitches have lied to me. I have a hundred and thirty-seven applications for kids,
that they'll be showing up in about two days. And, if I don't have some teachers
there Phil I'm--" and six other people came out with him. I said: "I'm gonna come
up here and throw your goddamn ass right out that fifth floor window. And there
is not a fucking swinging dick in here that can even slow me down." [Laughter]
"Gimme some teachers, right now, gimme some teachers! How many we need.
How many teachers we need over there."
[Unknown Person]
Just like that. Just like that...
[Wag]
Next day, I had five teachers over there.
[Levi]
Wow. What-What year would that have been, Wag?
[Wag]
Seventy-five.
[Levi]
Nineteen seventy-five?
[Wag]
Yup.
[Levi]
Okay. [Laughter] Good Ol' Phil nominated me for the Outstanding [Laughter] OOutstanding Statewide whatever it was--
[Unknown Person]
[Levi]
Do you blame him? [Laughter]
I'm joking. Wag, just for the record though, was there--were there--among those
five teachers were there any Native teachers in that group?
�[Wag]
My wife. [Laughter]
[Levi]
Your wife? Wow. That's it?
[Wag]
Yeah. Linda. They didn't have any teachers there. Well, they did have some.
[Levi]
Well, they had Janette Sinclair.
[Wag]
They had Janette Sinclair. But she was working for the regular education.
[Levi]
Okay.
[Wag]
Native education program. Janette was on the board, but she wasn't one of the
teachers there.
[Levi]
Okay.
[Wag]
They had my present wife. [INAUDIBLE]
[Levi]
Okay.
[Wag]
At least that's where I met her.
[Lin]
And who is your present wife?
[Wag]
Pardon?
[Lin]
Who is your present wife?
[Unknown Person]
[Wag]
Is that her real name?
Her name was--Her name was…
[Unknown Person]
[INAUDIBLE]
[Levi]
Sammy Wheeler
[Wag]
Sandy Whiteman.
[Levi]
Whiteman?
[Wag]
And I took some crap over that.
�[Levi]
From the Indians?
[Wag]
Yes.
[Unknown Person]
Because of her name.
[Wag]
Name. Yes. [Laughter]
[Wag]
I had people workin' in Inter-tribal that if white people came in there, they
wouldn't speak to them.
[Unknown Person]
[Wag]
[INAUDIBLE]
They wouldn't even wait on them. Tony, he was one of them. [Laughter] Tony!
Tony! Was one of them. She wouldn't even wait on them.
[Unknown Person] You know, what's funny about that. They resented that and they didn't
resent the white man's religion. [Laughter]
[Wag]
So, it went on and on. We did some good, we probably graduated better than
four hundred and somethin' students. So, over the course of the time I was there,
a lot of them went to college. Had some good people work for Inter-tribal. Your
mother [Laughs] Your mother was one that was good. She worked on our Indian
Child Welfare Department. Who made a lot of change at the state level. Through
her efforts and her bossin' Jonah Rayfields (?) office. A lot of changes.
[Lin]
Hm.
[Levi]
Talk about the connection that the Grand Rapids Inter-tribal Council may have
had with the American Indian Movement. A.I.M
[Wag]
Um, not much. I worked in Oklahoma with a group call Oklahoman's for Indian
Opportunity. It was started by...
[Levi]
Ladonna Harris.
[Wag]
Ladonna Harris, and a good friend of hers. Iola Hayden(?) O.I.O and the
American Indian Movement was really cross ways. I mean they just didn't like
one another. 'Course there wasn't a whole lotta people left of the American
Indian Movement back then. [Laughter] So, I was a little bit cautious, because I
had got involved with them, not totally involved with them. But when I was in the
University of Michigan, we had a lot of students that went to--
�[Levi]
[INAUDIBLE]
[Wag]
Washington.
[Levi]
Washington D.C. for the take over.
[Wag]
For the take over. The B.I.A. office is over there. We had a lot of students that
went. I didn't go. I didn't go, I had three young kids, and a wife in Oklahoma--er,
an ex-wife in Oklahoma. And, I thought: "I can't get in jail." [Chuckles]
[Levi]
So, that was November of nineteen seventy-two that that took place.
[Wag]
Yeah.
[Levi]
Yeah.
[Wag]
Well, it was right after that too.
[Levi]
Okay.
[Wag]
Cause that's when they really got in there and took over everything. We had
Wounded Knee, South Dakota. We have people from here that flew out to South
Dakota to deliver supplies. We had people that--
[Levi]
Now, was that Native or Non-Native.
[Wag]
There was no Native that did the flying.
[Levi]
That did the flying.
[Wag]
But there was Native that helped--
[Unknown Person]
There were some non-Natives that came out too.
[Levi]
But, what type of supplies did they send?
[Wag]
I think there was food, not any ammunition, I don't think. No ammunition. But, I
think it was food.
[Levi]
Food, blankets, clothing--
[Wag]
Yeah things like that.
[Unknown Person]
Water.
�[Wag]
And water, yeah.
[Levi]
Would you say that the Grand Rapids Inter-tribal Council was kind of a convener
that they collected these items, these supplies?
[Wag]
Uh, we didn't have--
[Levi]
Or was it separate from the Grand Rapids Inter-tribal Council?
[Wag]
It was separate from that, but I think the Odawa(?)Outreach did, they had a
building down on Turner street.
[Levi]
Kay.
[Wag]
Right behind where Sullivan's Carpets was...If you remember there was an old--
[Levi]
Red building.
[Wag]
And I think that they collected them, and the guy that flew them out there was
probably helpin' coordinate that. That happened to be Jennet's husband, Percy
Sinclair. That flew out there. But, it was very controversial. I was just talking
about the F.B.I and all that commin' in earlier. You know, they came in ta the
office. Wanted to know, because our phones were tapped. I had a red file when
they finally decided to release all that stuff. I think that was from the University of
Michigan, because any organized Native group, the members are gonna have
red files.
That's really just how it is. But it was--There was a lot of non-Native people that
supported. Just like there was a lot of non-Natives that supported the AfricanAmerican movement.
[Wag]
[Levi]
Exactly.
[Wag]
If you remember. Wouldn't have happened if they hadn't been.
[Lin]
Mmhm.
[Unknown Person]
That's so important to remember that, not all white people are bad.
[Wag]
Right, right.
[Levi]
What would you say the, if you were to sum up, the Grand Rapids Inter-tribal
Council's leadership? What did it provide to the Indian community? As you recall,
after all these years? You haven't served there for what? Nineteen years as
�[Wag]
executive director. But, what would you say was the calling-card for Grand
Rapids Inter-tribal Council?
I think it was just the place for people to come to. I really, really do. Whether they
were involved in the programs or not. Or, just as a social gathering place.
[Unknown Person]
It's kinda like a fallout shelter. [Laughter]
[Wag]
It ended up being like that.
[Levi]
But it provided a means of cohesiveness for the community?
[Wag]
It did.
[Levi]
Kept the community together?
[Wag]
Yeah, it did.
[Levi]
I don't wanna put words in your mouth. But I just wanna--
[Wag]
It did. I had people, that after I left there and went up north, and it finally closed
down, people ya' know that told me--that they said: "You know, after you left, we
never went back to Inter-tribal." And of course you knew there was a while there
before you took over. You couldn't-- and a lot of those people went back to living
on Reservations. Or, back to their real home, and didn't come in. But, I think the
main thing was that we had--and we had some programs that we had.
[Wag]
We had substance abuse programs, we mental health programs, we had the job
training program.
[Unknown Person]
[Wag]
And food assistance program.
Yes, food assistance, and senior meals.
[Unknown Person]
Right.
[Wag]
So there was an awful lot of things that's goin' on there that the people of the
community came in and organized while they were there at that point in time.
[Levi]
What-One of the things we are trying to do with this project is really to get a
sense of what it was like to be Native during that time in the city--the urban
setting. Whether they were here through relocation programs--
[Wag]
A lot of them were.
�[Levi]
and driven to the city for education. Or, employment opportunities. Give us a
sense of what the climate was like back then.
[Wag]
Well--While the people wanted to help the attitude was, we wanna make you like
us.
[Levi]
Of the non-Natives.
[Wag]
Yeah, yeah. We wanna make you like-like your "Everest" Doug DeVos.
[Levi]
Mhm.
[Wag]
And, he implied something to that effect. we wanna help you become--
[Unknown Person]
[Wag]
Like us.
Like a good dark complected Christians, ya know? Been there, did that!
[Laughter] Didn't work! I said something to him, that I probably shouldn't 'av said.
I don't even know what I said now. But it was something to the effect of: "We
don't live like you. We don't wanna be like white people. We have people thatthat are against the Christian church-- Against Christianity and all its forms.
People that suffer because of that. I myself was a Christian when I came up here.
I'm not anymore. But--
[Unknown Person]
By the way, Doug told me about you telling him that.
[Wag]
Uh huh. Well we never-[Unknown Person]
But, I also told him. I said: "Do you have any idea what they went through
under the banner of Christianity.
[Wag]
[Laughter]
[Unknown Person]
I said: "Just go up to a place like Mount Pleasant, and look at the
orphanage. And ask some of the Indians what they did to 'em."
[Wag]
Yeah.
[Unknown Person]
[Wag]
Yeah.
[Unknown Person]
[Wag]
How they forced them to speak another language.
Yeah.
How they stole them from their parents.
�[Unknown Person]
[Wag]
Absolutely. Well, they cut their hair. I mean, you know.
[Unknown Person]
[Wag]
Cut their hair, made 'em speak different language.
Put 'em all in the same uniform. Yeah.
[Unknown Person]
[Wag]
Dennis Banks was a good example of that.
Yeah.
You couldn't speak your language. And all that kinda thing.
[Unknown Person]
They also abused so many of those kids.
[Wag]
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. One--One of the attitudes, I think Levi, that we went into
here--I remember we had some money from the city--the--
[Levi]
The CD-- The Community Block Grant Money.
[Wag]
Block Grant Money, yeah. Been a long time.
[Levi]
Community Block Grant--CDBG. Yes.
[Wag]
Yeah, Block Grand money.
[Unknown Person]
[Wag]
[Laughter]
I had--Do you remember Howard Greenstra(?)
[Unknown Person]
Yeah. Yeah.
[Levi]
The city manager. Yes.
[Wag]
Well, no city manager--
[Levi]
No--I'm sorry he was a city commissioner.
[Unknown Person]
Right.
[Wag]
He was the city commissioner.
[Levi]
Greenstra, that's right.
�[Wag]
But, he was the chair of the city board.
[Unknown Person]
Right.
[Levi]
Yes.
[Wag]
Said to me, in a meeting, Howard said a lot of things to me.
[Levi]
[Laughter]
[Wag]
I said a few things to Howard. Uh, said to me [INAUDIBLE] at a commission
meeting, committee meeting; "Why have we given you guys money for four
years? How long do you think it's going to take to really help 'ya?
[Levi]
Are you serious?
[Wag]
I am. And I said: "Well, let's see. It took ya four-hundred years to [INAUDIBLE]
[Unknown Person]
[Laughter] [Wag] Maybe we should think in terms of four hundred years?
[Unknown Person]
Yeah, how'd ya like that?
[Levi]
I'm sure, by the time that I got there, I think it was only fifteen thousand dollars a
year. Maybe at your time your time, you probably started at about five or six.
[Wag]
Ten.
[Levi]
Ten.
[Wag]
Ten-thousand.
[Levi]
Oh, so just wait till the...that's kind of a little off. But--I want to say it. That they
expect us to give us two fishes and five loaves of bread.
[Wag]
We're dividers.
[Levi]
Go. Go--Go feed the multitude. Expect us to go solve all the problems, and I will
tell people this all the time. I'm not Jesus Christ. I cannot perform miracles with
this little sum of money you have given us. It's just not gonna happen.
[Wag]
No. no.
[Levi]
I do that on purpose to throw their own scripture back to their face so they get the
�point.
[Wag]
Well, let me tell you somethin' about Howard again, that's really, really
interesting, I think. At that time the museum had twenty-nine--the remains of
twenty-nine Native people that came out of the mounds.
[Levi]
Okay.
[Lin]
Grand Rapids Public Museum?
[Wag]
Yes, Grand Rapids Public Museum. There was a real fight going on throughout
the country, about getting the remains back and out of museums. The guy that
dug those mounds up, was a guy by the name of Richard Flanders. Who was an
anthropology professor at Grand Valley. And--bitter enemies. Bitter enemies. We
finally became friends right before he died. [Laughter] I don't know what that
meant. I mean acquaintances.
[Unknown Person]
[Wag]
How did you accomplish that? [Laughter]
I noticed something [INAUDIBLE]
[Unknown Person]
That was my next point.
[Wag]
But the fight was really going on, and we couldn't even get them to move. I mean
they didn't want to give anything back. Those were scientific remains--they were
studying the science to it-- Find out how you people ate, what you ate, and how
you--ask us! We'll tell you what we ate. A lot of people can tell you what we ate
back then! [Laughter] I mean it was just kind of a joke in these commission
meetings. But they finally-- and this was introduced by Howard, bless his heart.
But they finally said, we are going to return the remains that we can deem as
historical. And we are gonna to keep the remains that we deem as pre-historic.
Keep the pre-historic so that we can study them scientifically. But, those that we
can deem to be historic, return to the community. You know what date they
pass? Fourteen ninety-two. That's a resolution that the city commissioner of
Grand Rapids approved. Fourteen ninety-two. So, if anybody wants to know
when pre-historic time ended--it's fourteen ninety-two. And then he asked me,
when I said: "Hell, Howard. Nobody here but Indians till fourteen ninety-two.
[Levi]
[Laughter]
[Wag]
And then he said: "How can you have-- [INAUDIBLE] Minister of a Christian
Reform church--how can you as people make the association or connection with
people that lived two thousand years ago?
�[Unknown Person]
[Laughter] What was his answer?
[Wag]
You're a Christian minister, and you want me to answer that? Come on. That
ended the conversation.
[Levi]
The basis of Christianity is two thousand years ago. When Jesus walked the
earth. I get your point.
[Wag]
I mean that's the--
[Levi]
That's incredible.
[Wag]
It was incredible.
[Levi]
So, his question was--Just so we get this right-- How could you connect back two
thousand years? What connection you had?
[Wag]
Yeah.
[Levi]
But yet, as a Christian minister, he couldn't see it?
[Wag]
No.
[Levi]
Okay.
[Unknown Person]
[Wag]
In fact, you can go way beyond.
Absolutely.
[Unknown Person]
Way beyond--[INAUDIBLE]
[Levi]
I think the Norton Mound remains, pre-date when Jesus walked the earth fromfrom what I've learned from history.
[Wag]
Well, there's some in UP, there's not supposed to be any up there but there are. I
had a girl that worked for me that found them up there.
[Levi]
To your recollection why do they call them the Hopewell Mounds?
[Wag]
I think there was a tribe, I don't know, I think there was a tribe that they called
Hopewell people. I don't even know what that associates with, I don't have any
idea. It might have been a name that--
[Unknown Person]
Norton.
�[Levi]
I heard he was a farmer out in Ohio. That-That I guess they have mounds there.
[Wag]
Oh, yeah they do.
[Levi]
They associated the two, they connected them. They said: "Oh, they have to be
Hopewell people." Though really it's named after the--
[Unknown Person]
[Levi]
Farms.
[Unknown Person]
[Levi]
Do you know the name of the mounds--
--downtown where the museum is?
Yeah
[Unknown Person]
That whole area was going to be a parking lot. And Randy Brown and I
were on the board, and I told him. I said: "If you don't make those Indian mounds-turn em' Wag Wheeler over them. [Laughter]
[Wag]
Wha-what?
[Unknown Person]
Really! They were gonna make that a parking lot.
[Wag]
I hadn't heard that!
[Wag]
I'm sorry can I get--[INAUDIBLE] As you know...
[Levi]
No, no. This is great stuff! Our Christia-excuse me--Our questions are strictly a
guide. But given the fact that you've run the Grand Rapids Inter-tribal council,
you're going to be a little different in that you know things at a different level than
some of the other people we're gonna interview.
[Lin]
Can I take a break real quick?
[Levi]
Yes, yes.
[Lin]
Can I use your computer and have it plugged into the wall? So, I can plug it into
here?
[Levi]
Yes.
[Lin]
This sat here so long that the battery is dead.
�[Levi]
Let me go get my electrical cord. [Sneezing] That's no problem.
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/15daeb4a8d0a27ce0234ba3dddbf1c7c.mp3
5251e4f3d7897ce5c40a86e5dc4ca97b
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Gi-gikinomaage-min Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Native American Advisory Council
Grand Valley State University. Kustche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews with members of Grand Rapids' urban Native American population collected as part of the Gi-gikinomaage-min Project: Defend Our History, Unlock Your Spirit.
Translated from Anishinaabemowin, the original language of this area, Gi-gikinomaage-min means "We are all teachers." This is the name our project team choose to convey to the Native American community that through our stories and experiences, we are all teachers to someone. As we share those stories, we are allowing for our next generations to experience the past.
Grand Rapids’ Native American community grew dramatically in the last half of the 20th century as a result of a little-known federal program that still impacts American Indian lives today. Called the Urban Relocation Program, it created one of the largest mass movements of Indians in American history. The full scope of this massive social experiment and its impact on multiple generations of Native Americans remains largely undocumented and unexplored.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015/2016
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Gi-gikinomaage-min Project
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Subject
The topic of the resource
Indians of North America
Indians of North America--Michigan
Indians of North America--Education
Potawatomi Indians
Bode'wadmi
Ojibwa Indians
Anishinaabe
Navajo Indians
Dine'e
Cherokee Indians
Tsagali
Aniyunwiya
Archaeology
Mound-builders
Hopewellian culture
Indian arts--North America
Personal narrativse
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. Special Collections & University Archives
Identifier
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DC-10
Format
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audio/mp3
video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Sound
Moving Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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DC-10_Wheeler_Wagner_0615
Creator
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Wheeler, James Wagner "Wag"
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015-04-23
Title
A name given to the resource
Wag Wheeler interview (audio and transcript)
Description
An account of the resource
James Wagner "Wag" Wheeler was born in eastern Oklahoma to Cherokee parents in 1935. In his life in Salisaw, Oklahoma, Wheeler worked as an accountant and administrator until becoming the Executive Director of Oklahoma Indian Opportunity. After the organization lost its funding, he moved to Michigan to pursue a masters degree in public administration from the University of Michigan. There, he co-founded the Native American Student Association of UM, and was recruited to be the Executive Director of the Grand Rapids Inter-Tribal Counter and became a major contributor to local Native American social services for 18 years. He served as the CEO of Grand Traverse Band of the Ottawa and Chippewa Indians for two years. In this interview, he discusses his life and experiences as a community leader trying to reinvigorate Native cultural traditions in Grand Rapids community.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Bardwell, Belinda (Interviewer)
Rickert, Levi (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Cherokee Indians
Tsagali
Aniyunwiya
Personal narratives
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Indians of North America
Indians of North America--Michigan
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Gi-gikinomaage-min Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Sound
Text
Format
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7325ff3efc86fcaf32f750f6bafd8335.pdf
b5e5dee34115d9c55e108bcf44839322
PDF Text
Text
Native American Oral Histories
Gi-gikinomaage-min Project
Interview: Leroy Hall and Jason Quigno
Interviewer: Belinda Bardwell
Date: November 5, 2015
[Unknown]
…impressions, just don't even look at the camera Okay. Alright. Alright, not the
camera? Okay. Okay.
[Lin]
This is an interview with - please state your name -
[Leroy]
Leroy. Hall.
[Lin]
Hall. On November 5, 2015, for the Grand Valley State's project, Gigikinomaage-min, Defend Our History project. This is Belinda Bardwell and I'm
doing the interviewing. We are located at 1111 Godfrey Avenue at Jason
Quidno's[?] studio. And can you tell me where you were born?
[Leroy]
In Allegan, Michigan, which is I think, what, thirty, forty miles south of here.
[Lin]
How would you describe yourself or your ethnicity?
[Leroy]
What do you mean?
[Lin]
Like, are you Native American?
[Leroy]
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm Native American, from Chippewa Pottawatomi.
[Lin]
Do you have family in the area?
[Leroy]
Yeah. yeah. I have, let's see, my mom, I have four sisters that live in the Grand
Rapids area here, which they've lived here all their lives. Let's see, my dad, he
lives in Traverse City area. And, let's see, I think that, yeah, I think that's about it.
Yeah, and then I think I got cousins around town here.
[Lin]
Did you grow your whole life in Grand Rapids?
[Leroy]
Uh, no. Think, let me see, a couple of years. When I was first born I lived in
Allegan. Oh, I mean when I was like a couple of months old. I went and lived with
my grandma and lived with my grandma until I was like two and then move back
with my Mom and Dad, periodically off and on, as I was growing up. I would
always end up back at my grandparents’ house. I didn't like living in town here.
So, I was always up north at their houses.
1|Page
�[Lin]
What was, why didn't you like living in Grand Rapids?
[Leroy]
I just didn't. It seems like crowded here, nothing to do. You know, I always like
wanting to be out in the woods, and doing stuff in the woods and working on the
farm and stuff.
[Leroy]
You know, that was like, there wasn't nothing really to do around town here. But
back in like the ‘70s and early ‘80s. So, I just found it more interesting to be out in
the country, you know.
[Lin]
And what country is that? Where did your grandma live?
[Leroy]
I had one grandma that lived in Merritt, which is up by Houghton Lake. And then
my other grandma lived in, or, grandma and grandpa, lived in Mount Pleasant.
So, them were the two places that I would bounce back and forth between.
'Cause like my one grandmother lived in Merritt, she lived like way out in the
woods, and there wasn't like any- That's where I worked on the dairy farm at.
And then, the grandma in Mount Pleasant, like when I'd be like wanting to hang
around with my uncles and stuff, which are like my brothers, that's where I would
go and stay for a while. So that was like from like you know like maybe about
three or four years old all the way till like eleven twelve years old, did that.
[Lin]
So please describe some of your experiences with education.
[Leroy]
Oh, um, here in town or up North?
[Lin]
Just in general.
[Leroy]
Well, in general it was it was pretty rough. Coming from a Native American
background and everybody knowing you know and if they didn't know it they
would ask and then you know and then the name calling, and all the “woo woo
woo,” and all that crap would start. You know?
[Lin]
Here, or?
[Leroy]
Here and then up North. You know, you had to deal with a lot of racism. The farm
boys up in the country, you know. You had to deal with them. So, it was pretty
tough, you know, having to deal with the racism.
[Lin]
Do you think it was better or worse in a certain area?
[Leroy]
No I think it was - I think it was kind of the same everywhere. You know, whether
it was in like Merritt or Mount Pleasant. You know in Mount Pleasant there was,
there was more Native Americans or Indians to be around, you know. So, it
2|Page
�calmed it down a little bit. Here in town it was a little rough, you know, at times.
But you know, I fit in here a little, okay I guess.
[Lin]
Was there large Native American student body here in Grand Rapids when you
went to school?
[Leroy]
Nope.
[Lin]
What schools did you go to?
[Leroy]
I went to Hall School here, up on the hill. I went to Kensington up in the Black
Hills area. That was one, see I graduated sixth grade at Kensington. and then I
went to Burton Junior High and then uh, from there let's see, I went to Lake City
High School, and a high school in Mount Pleasant.
[Lin]
So you graduated from Mount Pleasant high school?
[Leroy]
No I graduated from Brimley High School, in the U.P.
[Lin]
Did you go onto to college at all?
[Leroy]
Yeah, I took like a year of college.
[Lin]
Where at?
[Leroy]
Bay Mills Community College and I was trying to get into Lake Superior, couldn't
cut it. I went to uh, Bay de Noc Community College for a while. Um, but, didn't
graduate.
[Lin]
What was the atmosphere like in college, going to a Native-based college, in a
Native community?
[Leroy]
It was pretty cool. I fit in well. It was really supportive. Uh, you know we had a lot
of support, lot of support from the students as well as the teachers. You know,
they were really helpful.
[Lin]
Were you involved in any extracurricular activities?
[Leroy]
Ooh, yep. Well I was class president. So, I did, worked on a lot of different
committees and stuff. And did a lot of functions like fundraisings and stuff like
that. For the class or student body had a seat on the board regions for the
Chippewa County. That was about it.
[Lin]
What was the most positive experience you had in college? In all of your
3|Page
�colleges?
[Leroy]
I think the Bay Mills one. That was-- the best I think college that I attended, for
the longest. Yeah, that was pretty helpful
[Lin]
Were you able to utilize the Michigan Indian Tuition Waiver at that time?
[Leroy]
Let me see, Um, I was having some problems with my enrollment into the tribe
and, so, uh. See, I'm trying to think. I think I did, yup, because Robert Van Alstein
at the BIA had to help me with-- my paperwork was messed all up. So, he was
real helpful in getting everything all straightened around and everything, and
getting me the financial aid that I needed to go.
[Lin]
And what tribe are you enrolled with?
[Leroy]
Saginaw Chippewa.
[Lin]
Okay. Um, so moving on to your employment history. Can you tell me about
being Native in the workforce in Grand Rapids?
[Leroy]
Yeah, I-I've never really had a problem getting a job. I always had employment
and I really never had a bad experience. I don't think as far as like racism or
anything like that. Well, but I always worked in construction. So, you know. You
know, I guess I fit on the crew. So, you know. So, you know there was no racism
there or anything like that.
[Lin]
Okay, so we covered work experience. So there was no experiences of racism in
the workforce?
[Leroy]
Not that I can recall.
[Lin]
That's good. So about your family? Can you tell me a little about your parents?
Your siblings?
[Leroy]
Well, my Mom and Dad are still alive. I have four sisters that are still alive. I grew
up with my aunts and uncles more than anything. Well, actually my uncles. And
my grandpa and grandmas more than anything in my younger years. I got to
know my sister's later on. Well, periodically as a kid. But then, like growing up
and getting older, I got to know them more and more recently within the past ten
years, I've gotten to know them a little more. I moved back to Grand Rapids here.
It's been close to ten years now. Where I came back here. So, I'm getting to
know them more. And my mom as well, getting more closer to them, I guess.
[Lin]
Um, you know there is a large Native community in Grand Rapids. Is your-are
4|Page
�you involved with the native community? Do you go to function, are your family
involved?
[Leroy]
I don't really think that they are. I know when the pow wows come they talk about
going down. I don't know if they ever make it down. I know I go down there and
hang out for a minute. You know. As far as like some of the other functions I don't
think they do. I know up North, like in Peshawbestown. My kids are into it. You
know, they attend a lot of functions, and are involved with a lot of stuff like that up
there but, as far as like my mom and my sister's, they aren't. And don't--
[Lin]
Do you --Can you tell me why you don't think they are?
[Leroy]
I think they just stay to themselves, and don't participate in that stuff. I think they,
you know like-- I don't know. You know, I don't know if they just like don't, or are
that in touch with like the Native Americans. You know I mean they know a lot of
Native Americans. But I think they just stick to themselves. You know? Yeah,
that's all I can say, you know? That's all I know.
[Lin]
Do you – are you part of any sort of religious group or congregation within the
Grand Rapids area.
[Leroy]
No.
[Lin]
So, are you traditionalist? Uh, do you attend ceremonies? Are you involved at all
with any native functions or events or activities going on?
[Leroy]
No.
[Lin]
Okay. What influences has national organizations such as AIM or any other civil
rights organization play through the course of your life? Past, present, future?
[Leroy]
I like to like, read on some of that stuff. And, you know, and I do get, you know,
upset. You know, when I see and read and hear about racist stuff going on
happening to the youth. You know, our kids. You know, because I know what I
went through you know and I know that even though that I didn't really go through
– you know there were some rocky areas, here and there. But, I know that kids
and adults, some people, go through rougher stuff then I have, you know. And
still are you know with society. You know, or racists. You know, things going on,
and you know I wish something more could be done about it. You know, because
I see that stuff like Black Lives Matter, and it's like everybody matters, not only
black lives. Or, blue lives matter. You know, everybody matters. You know. Not
just that particular race. You know, I mean yeah, they had it rough. You know,
but the Native Americans had it rough too, you know? It’s just got to change.
5|Page
�[Lin]
Can you tell me about any positive experiences through the course of your
experiences in Grand Rapids that you have had within the Native community?
[Leroy]
Um, here! At Anishinaabe Studios.
[Lin]
What goes on here?
[Leroy]
We do stone carving here. And, so you know, we come here every day, and you
know me and Jason are Native American. And we connect well and that's a part
of who we are as a people. So, I think that helps me out. You know, because
otherwise I wouldn't be connecting with the Native American side of me if I was
out hanging out with my other friends. So, I do like come in here every day being
a part of this here. I can't explain what it is here. But, I know it's a lot of good. You
know, that happens here. That I like being here.
[Lin]
Can you tell me about any negative experiences through the course of your
experiences in Grand Rapids?
[Leroy]
What like school?
[Lin]
Anything stand out?
[Leroy]
I don't know. I don't know. Like when? Like recently? Or when I was younger, or
older?
[Lin]
When you were younger.
[Leroy]
When I was younger? Yeah, I remember. I think about that a lot. You know,
about when I went to Hall School. There was a little guy in class and the teacher,
he was a Hispanic guy, and he use to pick on this little guy every day. And he
would like shake him and the school had like a--Um, it was, a brick like pillars.
And then in between the pillars were wood you know, and then glass, or windows
on the top. So, it was kind of not as solid as bricks. So, this teacher would like
bang that little guy up on the wall, and shaking them windows. You know-- and I
don't know how that little guy would come to school every day but he would, you
know, knowing he was going to get picked on by the teacher every day. So, I
think about that a lot. And he was a little white guy, you know. So, it was like I
don't know if that Hispanic teacher was like reversing the role, or what! You
know? Because there was a lot of--you know--like me, and then there was like
Puerto Ricans, and Mexicans in the classroom. You know none of us got
touched. You know, but it was just this little white guy that always got picked on
in that one class. And you know. So, I always felt bad for that guy.
6|Page
�[Lin]
So, if you could summarize into one, or know you, a couple highlights about who
you are as an urban Native what would you like to the next generation?
[Leroy]
Sheesh, what was that?
[Lin]
What would you like to pass on to the next generation of Native Americans? You
mentioned that you--
[Leroy]
Yeah, I think I would, um, just like to--I don't know, maybe artwork? You know?
get in touch with your Native background and express it through artwork or
something. And education is--everybody-- you have to go to school to get
educated.
[Lin]
For sure. Would you be willing to teach your artwork and your skills to the next
generation?
[Leroy]
Woo, I don't know about that! Because I'm not a good teacher. [Laughter]
[Leroy]
I'm a do-er, I'm not a teacher.
[Lin]
Was there anything that I didn't ask you that you would like to talk about today?
[Leroy]
Hm, let me see. No, I think. I don't know if you have more questions I could think
about. I think that's about it.
[Lin]
Um, no, that's all the questions I have.
[Leroy]
Sheesh. Alright. Yeah. Is that it?
[Lin]
Yeah!
[Leroy]
Alright, cool! I wish I could've thought about more.
[Lin]
This is Belinda Bardwell, on November 5, 2015 at 1111 Godfrey and I'm
interviewing Jason Quigno for the Gi-gikinomaage-min and Defend Our History
Project through Grand Valley State University. What is your name?
[Jason]
Jason Quigno.
[Lin]
And how do you spell Quigno?
[Jason]
Q U I G N O.
[Lin]
Can you tell me about where you were born?
7|Page
�[Jason]
I was born in Alma, Michigan. And grew up--well, my Early life was in Mount
Pleasant, part of the Saginaw Chippewa Tribe. I moved to Keweenaw Bay when I
was probably about five or so. I remember going to preschool up there. Probably
younger that's where my earlier childhood was.
[Lin]
Okay. And when did you first make contact in Grand Rapids?
[Jason]
About fifteen years ago.
[Lin]
Oh, wow.
[Jason]
Yeah.
[Lin]
So where did you go to school then? In Keweenaw Bay?
[Jason]
Nope. Uh, I grew up in Keewanaw bay till I was a teenager. I moved to Mount
Pleasant, went to school there, didn't finish school. Finished school. And I started
my GED in the county jail and finished in a treatment. [laughter] That's my
education.
[Lin]
So when you moved here, what did you do when you right moved here fifteen
years ago?
[Jason]
I had sobered up, actually. That's when I was in treatment up in Escanaba. And
then I moved on here. I met a woman before that. So, I moved in with her. I've
been down here ever since--Well, when I first move--When I first got here I did
stage work at Van Andel, and all the venues in town and Southern Michigan
basically.
[Lin]
What stage work?
[Jason]
Stage hand. As part of the union. Doing um--setting up for concerts, wrestling,
opera. Just all kinds of different shows. Whenever they needed audio or stage
they call us in. And then, I always did the stone sculpture. And, I would say
probably about twelve years ago, I just quit work all together and just started
carving stone and here I am. [Laughter]
[Lin]
So, in your job, here as an artist, obviously you, work with Louis. What is his
name?
[Jason]
Leroy.
[Lin]
Leroy. Do you have other people in the same area that you work with that are
8|Page
�non-Native?
[Jason]
Yeah, in this building. This whole complex. It's full of artists, which is really cool.
there's uh, clothing, and a guy makes like hand bags, all kinds of cool stuff.
Painters, sculptures, photographers, furniture makers. Even coffee roasters in
this complex. It's really cool. So, it's pretty diverse. Next door there are Cubans.
They carve stone, they carve wood. And, we share this building I'm in. So, it's
pretty good. We just kind of hang out. It's not even like working some days.
[Laughter]
[Lin]
Like today? [Jason] Yeah.
[Lin]
So, you grew up in a Native community-
[Jason]
Yeah
[Lin]
And then you live your adult life in the urban community. Can you tell me, kind of,
your experiences and how they differ from each community?
[Jason]
Yeah. My earliest memories were of Keewanaw Bay, of course. Being a small
town and it was a Native community. There were a lot of Natives. But there is a
division. Even at a young age I could tell. Like my teacher, I remember her-- I
don't remember her name. But she was prejudiced against Native Americans.
Even the kids she treated us Native kids bad in class. So, that always kind of
stuck with me. Just a lot how the white people were up there. But it went--Now
that I'm older, I know it goes both ways. Once people get caught in that-- it
seems to happen in small towns a lot where there is a Native community. You
know they get on their two sides and it just doesn't stop, you know?
[Lin]
So do you find it to be easier to be Native in Grand Rapids?
[Jason]
I did. When I--and uh, Mount Pleasant--I grew up there in my teenage years. And
that was it was kinda of the same, but not as severe. The most severe was when
I was in Keewanaw Bay. Honestly, I don't remember much of my teenage years it
was a while back. [Laughter] But, uh, down here, I remember quite a bit and it
was it was a lot easier because there is diversity. There is the Black community,
the Hispanic community, and I kind of liked that I was pretty anonymous down
here.
[Lin]
That's important.
[Jason]
Where I live, I live in Jenison. It's pretty Dutch over there. You know? They're
nice people. But when I first moved down here, people were trying to save me.
Like I would go to church, "Oh, are you from Zuni Reservation? You know we do
9|Page
�missionary work out there." Or "Do you believe in Jesus?" I'm like, "Come on
man." I said "I grew up going to church!" Said, uh--"I went to church just like you
guys did." [Laughter]
[Lin]
So, you grew up in a church are you still--Skipping down to the religious part-- Do
you find yourself still religious? And attend church?
[Jason]
Nah. I dropped that a long time ago.
[Lin]
So how do you feel that part of your life went?
[Jason]
I'm just spiritual and in the [?] around me. I don't need no church or anything to
pray to which is – I am always connected. I guess I follow more traditional ways.
But even in that, I've been kind of evolving over the years. Where I just have my
own thing going on, and I'm happy with that.
[Lin]
That's important. So, can you tell me little bit about your parents and siblings and
your gamut of family?
[Jason]
My parents are up in Mount Pleasant. My father passed away at a young age. My
mother is still alive. I have a sister down here who lives in Grand Rapids. And a
cousin. Most of my family is in Mount Pleasant. Yeah, we-- It was a good
upbringing, you know the usual. We had our issues with drugs and alcohol, and
the whole-- all that stuff. But, you know, it's just part of life.
[Lin]
You'd mentioned that you're a traditional Native. Is any of your family or yourself
take part in the activities that go on in Grand Rapids? The events, or--?
[Jason]
I do once in a great while, when I have time. I used to more so, when I first
moved down here. When I first moved down, coming from the reservation, I was
really looking for that connection with Natives. Because I was thrust into the
white community where I was living. So it was nice to connect with the Natives.
So, I would go to the feast or the pow wow. And whatever little thing they had
going on.
[Lin]
So you mentioned that you don't do that as much. What's the reason for that?
[Jason]
Work.
[Lin]
Well, that's good.
[Jason]
Yeah, I'm always working here all the time.
[Lin]
So the question of the influences of civil rights organizations or political
10 | P a g e
�organizations. How has any of those, you know like AIM, or other organizations
that you can think of--How have they influenced you? Or were you involved?
[Jason]
I normally keep to myself in a lot of things. When I was younger, I used to get into
that a little bit with the AIM. I remember when Keewanaw Bay, they had their
uprising I was up there supporting them around that whole thing with the take
over and all that stuff.
[Lin]
Nice.
[Jason]
But after a while, you know, I just do my own thing.
[Lin]
Okay. Can you tell me about a positive experience that you've had living in Grand
Rapids as a Native?
[Jason]
I guess just the communities. Like I said, it is a lot more diverse. Coming from
where I grew up. I guess. Personally, and Native my artwork that open my eyes
to a lot broader spectrum. Because before I was just, I'd just seen one type of
thing my whole life. You know, there's bead work. You know, other designs. But
then moving here there's all this painting and all these different diverse forms of
work. I would say that's positive.
[Lin]
How did you learn your skill of being a stone sculptor?
[Jason]
There was a class where I grew up on the Saginaw Chippewa reservation. It was
through the Education Department. A couple members-- Well, one member went
to school in Santa Fe. He went to the Institute out there. He learned that out
there. And he brought it back to the rez. And his apprentice--him and his first
apprentice started a class. When I was fourteen. And, I just stuck with it ever
since.
[Lin]
Who has been an inspiration to your artwork? What has been an inspiration?
[Jason]
There's many things. I'd like to give them guys credit though. Dennis Christy was
the guy who first brought it across. and Dan Mena. So, they were inspiration to
me at one time, they still are. I guess promoting our stories through stone
because in the past it’s been handed down through word of mouth and some of
artwork. You know-- the baskets and stuff. But this is-- we're in here now. So,
what I do, one of my missions is, to put them stories in stone. Other cultures and
societies have their stories from seven thousand years ago. So, I thought--well,
we need that for us. [?].
[Lin]
Can you tell me a little--Have you ever had a negative experience living in the
urban setting?
11 | P a g e
�[Jason]
You know it's what you make of it, really. You know, because you're going to run
into ignorance all the time. Just like, how I said I moved to Jenison and the
people… It's just how they grew up. It gets frustrating but it's like you can't get
through to them because they don't see. They don't experience what we
experience. We don’t experience what they experience. How we going to -We're just going to be butting heads like in the--back on the rez. And in that little
town. So, I've kind of of learned like – You know it's no big deal, really. You
know?
[Lin]
Has anything changed in Jenison since you've been there?
[Jason]
Not really. But, I work down here. So, I'm down here mostly. I'm in the Hispanic
community. [Laughter] People probably think I'm a big Mexican down here. But,
you know, I feel comfortable down here. You know some people don't like the
neighborhood, but I like it. So, I've been down--working down here for like twelve
years. But talking about that experience. When I first moved here, it wasn't just
Jenison. I'm not trying to put Jenison people down either. It's just, like, all over.
But I usually get the people wanting to take pictures with me. You know?
[Lin]
Is that because you are Indian? Or because you are and artist?
[Jason]
Indian like when I first moved here. Like, one I went to a school with my girlfriend
Penny. Who went to her old school, I forgot what for, it was in the high school
and all them kids were staring at me in the windows. I happen to look over. It
never seen an Indian. It's like "Holy!" [Laughter]
[Lin]
When was this? Like 1954?
[Jason]
Like about twelve years ago, or twelve-thirteen years ago. That was kind of crazy
you know? I thought, "sheesh". So, like that stuff. And then, oe guy, he was kind
of annoying in the grocery store. In the grocery store he said, "So are you
Lakota? You know, I've been out there quite a bit." He would tell me every time. I
know he was just old and trying to be friendly. But after a while it got annoying.
"Man, you tell me the same story every time I see you!" [Laughter]
[Lin]
So what would you like to pass on to the next generations?
[Jason]
Uh-- just, um. It's what-- I guess, um--Going with it. Experience it's what you
make of it. You know, as we walk through life we're going to experience a lot of
negative stuff. It's what we make, you know? There's going to be prejudice and
people are going to throw all that negative stuff at us, but, you know, don't let it
get to you. It's--
12 | P a g e
�[Lin]
How do you handle that? I mean it's easy to say, "It's what you make of it," but in
practice?
[Jason]
It's just--I don't know. I just came to a point of my life where it don't bother me. It's
because mostly, it's on them. You know you see if you really truly look at people.
The different group. They grew up with that whole mentality of how they look at
us. Or, how they look at the Hispanic or Black groups. Or even then--or even us,
we're prejudiced against other groups, you know? Even within our own groups.
That's one thing that does bother me. It's like--um, some Natives--they're like
half, or a quarter--and then I hear the darker ones, I guess you would say, put
them down you know calling them white and all that. It's like "Pft" But yet, they
will be crying racism--You know, it's like-- Man can you be that way? and yet say
all that stuff. So, it's like I guess you just have to look into it. I guess that's how I
would say-- how do you handle that? You really look at the situation. You really
look at them people and consider their background, and all that--where they are
coming from. You just come to an understanding, you know?
[Lin]
Hm, sorry, that was my own personal question. Is there anything that I didn't ask
that you want to talk about today?
[Jason]
No. I think I'm good. [Laughter]
[Lin]
Well, thank you.
[Jason]
Thank you.
13 | P a g e
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c41f9c465f8c9761d5afb958d08227d0.mp3
bca261281815fdcf207ef4c2b83def05
Dublin Core
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Title
A name given to the resource
Gi-gikinomaage-min Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Native American Advisory Council
Grand Valley State University. Kustche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews with members of Grand Rapids' urban Native American population collected as part of the Gi-gikinomaage-min Project: Defend Our History, Unlock Your Spirit.
Translated from Anishinaabemowin, the original language of this area, Gi-gikinomaage-min means "We are all teachers." This is the name our project team choose to convey to the Native American community that through our stories and experiences, we are all teachers to someone. As we share those stories, we are allowing for our next generations to experience the past.
Grand Rapids’ Native American community grew dramatically in the last half of the 20th century as a result of a little-known federal program that still impacts American Indian lives today. Called the Urban Relocation Program, it created one of the largest mass movements of Indians in American history. The full scope of this massive social experiment and its impact on multiple generations of Native Americans remains largely undocumented and unexplored.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015/2016
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Gi-gikinomaage-min Project
Rights
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In Copyright
Subject
The topic of the resource
Indians of North America
Indians of North America--Michigan
Indians of North America--Education
Potawatomi Indians
Bode'wadmi
Ojibwa Indians
Anishinaabe
Navajo Indians
Dine'e
Cherokee Indians
Tsagali
Aniyunwiya
Archaeology
Mound-builders
Hopewellian culture
Indian arts--North America
Personal narrativse
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
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Grand Valley State University. Special Collections & University Archives
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DC-10
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audio/mp3
video/mp4
application/pdf
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Text
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eng
Oral History
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DC-10_Hall_Leroy_1115
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Hall, Leroy
Quigno, Jason
Date
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2015-11-05
Title
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Leroy Hall and Jason Quigno interview (audio and transcript)
Description
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Leroy Hall is a member of the Saginaw Chippewa tribe, who resides in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Leroy grew up in a number of Michigan communities, including Merritt, Mount Pleasant, and Grand Rapids. He attended college at Bay de Noc Community Collee and Bay Mills. In his interview he discusses his family, education, experiences of racism, and practicing sculpture.
Jason Quigno is a member of the Saginaw Chippewa tribe, who also resides in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He grew up in Mount Pleasant and Keweenaw Bay. In his interview, he discusses his personal history, perspective on racism, and practice of traditional art.
Contributor
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Bardwell, Belinda (Interviewer)
Subject
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Ojibwa Indians
Anishinaabe
Personal narratives
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Indians of North America
Indians of North America--Michigan
Indian arts--North America
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Gi-gikinomaage-min Project
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/edb6df67e42f0b949730a18b6041fd93.pdf
de58080be0006a6184057a2bed7397a0
PDF Text
Text
Native American Oral Histories
Gi-gikinomaage-min Project
Interview: June Mamagona Fletcher
Interviewer: Belinda Bardwell
Date: April 6, 2016
[Lin]
So, I am interviewing June Mamagona Fletcher for the Gi-gikinomaage-min
Defend Our History Project. Oral History project through the Kutsche office of
Grand Valley State University. It's April 6th, it's about 2 P.M. and we are in the
studios of WGVU. I want to thank you June for allowing me to interview you
today. I was wondering if you could introduce yourself?
[June]
Well, I'm glad to be here. My name is June Mamagona Fletcher, and my father is
David Mamagona. Who's Grand Traverse Ottawa, and my mother is Laura
Stevens, and she is a decedent of the Pokagon tribe, and I am Bear Clan
through my mother’s side. I'm married to Richard Fletcher, and my sons are
Matthew Fletcher and Zeke Fletcher. On the side note, I graduated from Grand
Valley State University many years ago. With my master’s degree in business
administration.
[Lin]
Nice! Where were you born?
[June]
I was born in Detroit, Michigan. My father was relocated during the forties to
Detroit. In a roundabout way he met my mother. So, they lived there for a while.
At least while I was born. Then they would move back to Dorr in Allegan County.
When my brother was born they moved back to Detroit, so we were both born in
the same Mt. Carmel Hospital in Detroit.
[Lin]
Oh, okay. So, where was your father is located from?
[June]
He was relocated from--Um, by Traverse City. He lived at Kewadin area, which is
on the other side of the Peninsula from Peshawbestown. Then my mother grew
up in Allegan County. She was one of the few people who didn't go to the
boarding school in that particular area, because she had TB. She was diagnosed
with TB. So, about the time that they went from twelve to sixteen, she was in the
hospital. Then she was out of the hospital for a few months. Then she was in a
car accident and broke her back. So, then she was out again. She was one of the
first recipients of the GED certificate. That she earned when she was in the
hospital. She was also one of the first people to get her LPN license in-state they
had just started the program when she was a young person.
[Lin]
And where did she work?
[June]
She worked--Uh, she started out at Allegan General Hospital, and she worked at
1|Page
�various places. When she retired, she retired from Michigan Veterans Facility.
[Lin]
Oh.
[June]
And then my father was an engineer. He went to college in Angola, Indiana. He
was what they call--Uh, a job shopper, or engineer. But, he would do short term
projects. So, they would live in various places while he--Um, ‘til he would finish
up a project in the particular city. Then usually they move back to Allegan
County. Either with my grandpa, or in that area.
[Lin]
So, that's your Pottawatomie side?
[June]
Yes, that was my Pottawatomie side. I also lived for a couple years up with my
grandpa Mamagona in Kewadin. When my dad was working and going to school
through Ford Motor Company. So, that was pretty interesting. He was one of the
people that invented the shift system for the Mustang.
[Lin]
Nice!
[June]
So, now I know why I like Mustangs.
[Lin]
That's my favorite car too. Okay, so where was the majority of your time growing
up spent?
[June]
Uh, probably once my brother got older, it was probably Grand Rapids. That's
where I grew up. Um, and I went to--I started high school at Central Michigan-Uh, Central Christian, and then I went to-- I graduated from Creston High School.
In fact, the year that I graduated Joanne Sprague and I were the only two Native
American students to graduate from in the city of Grand Rapids.
[Lin]
How was attending school being the only two Native people in the school?
[June]
We didn't actually even go to school together very much. She went to Central
and I went to Christian. I mean to say Creston. But, I-- they had a program where
I would go to Central once a day for physics class, and then we would go out to
lunch together, so--Plus, you know, I'd known her all my life.
[Lin]
Mhm.
[June]
She's about the same age as I was, and her family was real close with my aunt
and uncle. Well anyway, and there's a lot of Spragues. [Laughter]
[Lin]
They're sprinkled throughout.
2|Page
�[June]
Yeah.
[Lin]
Uh, did you suffer any racism? Or—
[June]
You know being the only one for many many years in the different school
systems that I went to, it was more of a novelty for me when I was growing up. I
really didn't--Uh, the most overt racism that I ever came to is when I was in the
restroom, after seeing a movie at Studio Twenty-Eight. You know afterwards,
after that that big glass of ice tea--you really have to go. [Laughter] Alright, so I'm
standing in line and I got finished. And I came out and this woman, she said "Well
I'm not going in after her." Then she'd turned around, then the lady behind her-"Well, don't care!" And then she went in there. She wouldn't use the restroom
after me. That was probably the most overt.
[Lin]
Yeah? About how old were you?
[June]
I was probably about twenty.
[Lin]
Sheese.
[June]
And I really didn't care. [Laughter] It's her problem.
[Lin]
Okay, so you graduated from Creston. And I noticed that you went to Western
Michigan University.
[June]
Mhm.
[Lin]
What was it like attending there your first--So, you weren't the first-generation
college student--'Cause your mother and father were--
[June]
Well technically if you go by the federal guidelines, I was. Because my father
didn't get a bachelor’s degree and my mother had a certificate, a nursing
certificate. So, technically. But, growing up – I actually went to Grand Rapids
Community College first. I think probably, I went to college the hard way. You
know, I got married first, had a kid, and then decide to go back to college. Which
makes it a little bit different. Because then you have home, family, work. You
know, then school and studying. That was probably the most difficult way to do it.
But, I had a lot of support at home. You know, Richard was real supportive, my
mother's real supportive. Helped me to take care of my son and I made it
through, and I went to, after Community College, is when I went to Western.
Again, you know, my family is real helpful and help me get me through there.
After I graduated there, was probably a couple years later when I started working
here at Grand Valley State University. Then I worked here for seventeen years.
While I was working here is when I got my vouchers. Actually, I was probably one
3|Page
�of the first people to use the Tuition Waiver Program. When I was going to
GRCC.
[Lin]
Can you explain a little bit what the tuition waiver program is?
[June]
Well, it's not really tight down the way it is now, it was more loose. 'Cause people
weren't really schools, and the people weren't really sure how to use it. I got my
certification through the Bureau of Indian Affairs. So, that's how you did that back
then, rather than going through your tribes. We'd have to go--the way they do it
nowadays. I also I got some school funding through them to help pay for my child
care, when I was going through there. So, everything was through the Bureau of
Indian Affairs as opposed to tribes. Everything is run through tribes now. The
process was you just fill out the form, and approve it by the BIA. Then you send it
to the State of Michigan, and there it was. You know, the school had to waive
your tuition, basically. While you was going to school. That was before the State
of Michigan actually set up a funding process for the tuition waiver.
[Lin]
What year was that?
[June]
Oh, man! [Laughter] Um, let's see. Probably 1979.
[Lin]
And that was the beginning of that tuition waiver?
[June]
Yeah, right around there. I think it actually was starting in like ’77, ’78. But, you
know, it took them a while to figure out how they were going to do it. So, I think
for me it was ’79, is when I… I only got, like, one semester in before I graduated.
Then I started in at Western in 1981. Then I graduated from there in ’83. Then I
started here in ‘90, I think.
[Lin]
And what did you do at Grand—
[Unknown Person] Can we pause?
[Lin]
Is it off?
[Unknown Person]
[Lin]
Oh.
[Unknown Person]
[Lin]
Can you restate that question?
What was the question?
[Unknown Person]
4|Page
No, it's not off.
[INAUDIBLE]
�[Lin]
Oh, I was gonna-- I was going to-- So, what did you do here at Grand Valley
State University?
[June]
I worked for the talent search program, and our job was to assist first generation
students into continuing their education beyond high school. So, when I first
started, we only work with high school students to get them prepared, shown
them what the ropes are, help 'em fill out scholarships, college applications, and
financial aid to continue their education beyond high school. Okay. And, we
worked with alternative schools. So, a lot of my students went to Grand Rapids
Community College. And not all of them went for, you know-- Not everybody is
going to become a teacher, or lawyer, or whatever. They were mainly going for
continuing studies in some area. It could be out of mechanics, it could be
nursing, it could be childcare assisting--there was a number different programs
that GRCC had back then. That my student started out for, and since we worked
with non-traditional students-- What I did, is my focus was on--Um, I had two
focuses. One was adult education, and then the other one was the Native
American community. So, I assisted probably over the seventeen years, probably
hundreds of Native American members of this community. To continue to-- at
least know what they had to do to continue their education. You know, they
might've not went that year, or they mighta' started and then stopped. And then,
you know, five years later they were in a better spot, and then they started back
up--but, at least they knew what the ropes were to continue their education
beyond high school.
[Lin]
What were some of the common threads between the Native community and
getting access to higher education.
[June]
Well, knowledge is one thing--that being first generation students, a lot of
students didn't know what they had to do to get into higher education. And,
having a really good institution like GRCC, where they had a number of different
programs that you can use. They had a number of choices that they could figure
out where they wanted to use the tuition waiver at.
[Lin]
Mhm.
[June]
Because you're--the tuition waiver only covers public colleges and universities.
So, we kinda went down that route and for some people they continued on--You
know, I have students – You know I meet people at Meijers they'll say: "Oh!
Missus Fletcher! You know, you helped me get my master’s degree. Do you
remember way back when?” and I just say--well you know! I had eight hundred
clients a year! [Laughter]
[June]
So, you know. Can you give me a break here? Can you tell me what your name
5|Page
�was, and where, you know, whatever? But, you know, a lot of 'em have gone to
get their doctorates. You know? I think once you know what the ropes are it's
easier. Also, it was helpful for the parents too. Because, parents-- They wanna
be able to help their students--their kids-- and they don't wanna look like they
don't know what they're doing. So, it's nice when everybody comes in and you tell
them, you gotta do this, this, this, and this. Had a nice little check list going, and
these are the things that you had to do. And, as a parent this is what you have to
do, and as a student this is what you have to do. So, graduating from high school
was always the number one priority. Which is really nice working with Ron in the
community, because he had kind of a nice classroom that I could start out with
working with students. He had--we had a lot--we supported each other. So, he
would you know say: "Well, June you know this is what we wanna do. And you
know, come visit colleges, provide scholarship assistance, and information." And,
we would work together in getting these kids graduated. I was just looking at
pictures the other day, I was trying to remember what I did way back then, and
I'm going, you know, we had a lot of kids that we both worked with over the years
that through the Grand Rapids Public schools.
[Lin]
So at that time, you mentioned Ron, who's Ron?
[June]
Ron Yob is a teacher that worked with the alternative education programs in the
Grand Rapids Public School system. And his classroom was mainly for Native
American students.
[Lin]
So did you work closely with the Native American education program within
GRPS?
[June]
Um, off and on, depending on what was going on. Actually, I worked, probably
five years for the Native American Education Program when I first started
working in Grand Rapids Public Schools. And then I did not -- um-- I had my
second child and went on maternity leave and then when I came back I went into
Community Education work.
[Lin]
Okay so, let me fast forward, you answer all my questions before I ask him.
[June]
Oh well that's good.
[Lin]
Less I have to do. Sorry [Laughs] I get off track. Okay I am so being able to focus
on the Native community within your job at GVSU, was that difficult to push
through GVSU, or did they allow you to focus on the Native community.
[June]
Well because of the grant requirements, it was fairly easy to work with the Native
American community because it was one of our focus areas, because we worked
with non-dominant populations. And so, we had various, we had, we worked with
6|Page
�the Black American community, we worked with the Hispanic community and our
advisors you know had our -- everybody in our program had their different areas
of expertise. But our main overall function usually was working with alternative
education programs. You know, so we worked with young mothers, we worked
with people that were just coming to the community from other countries, we
worked with displaced homemakers. So, you know we had a really wide range of
areas within our program and one of the things of having a federal grant like that
is Grand Valley does sign off and they were always very supportive of our
program, as we were going through.
[Lin]
And the grant that was for Talent Search?
[June]
Which is one of the TRIO programs through the Department of Education.
[Lin]
Okay. Yeah that still is going on today. Are there any students that stand out in
your history? You know working with Grand Rapids Public schools, there was
always a couple of students that stand out and I remember. Just wondering if you
had any?
[June]
Oh well not right off hand.
[Lin]
Okay.
[June]
They were all pretty good.
[Lin]
Um, let's see here, more about Grand Valley. So, working with Ron Yob, what
exactly did he do for his students through your perspective.
[June]
He was a hands-on educator, and an all-around one, so if the student was
lagging behind in any of their educational areas he would reinforce that and if
they were having problems at home, he would make home visits. And there's
been a couple times where both of us had gone to talk to a parent because the
student wanted to go to college but the parent was not on board with the student
continuing their education. So we would sit and have a discussion about you
know what education does for you. And what education does is gives you the
possibility of making choices of what you want to do. Many times, um say, you
get your education in Education, but that doesn't always mean you're gonna be a
teacher. There's a lot of possibilities that you can do within the educational
system. You might have a background in business and you might you know end
up being a trainer for a large company. You're still in education and you're still
teaching but you're doing it in a different focus area. So there's a lot of different
possibilities you could do with that, same with nursing. You know you go into
nursing and everybody thinks oh you're gonna be a nurse. That's not -- you may
end up with Insurance Company. You know, looking at claims and checking out
7|Page
�the possibilities, you know, of what you know this claim might cover not cover.
[Lin]
So you mentioned job training. I noticed that you also had a career as part of the
Michigan Indian employment training.
[June]
I've been on the board for since 1985. Oh, for me it's, oh my goodness, um, and
that, originally and still is the focus is to help assist Native American peoples in
the work place and the requirements have changed over the years. I think they're
slowly kinda winding it down as far as funding goes and as far as support goes
with within the government process. Politics are changing, you know, and a lot of
it is going with politics on that one. But again, there's a number of people that
were - a lot of people that were assisted through the program because of that.
[Lin]
So what exactly did the program do?
[June]
Well what it used to do is use to help people. I would work with employers and
would place people and employers it would help him with job training. It would
help them with the equipment. There was a lot of, you know, everything you
might need -- transportation through the public system -- so there was number of
things that, you know, would assist people in the area. One of the other things
that we did, that I did when I worked with Grand Valley, was we had a higher
education advocacy program that we worked with colleges around the State of
Michigan. So, say I have somebody that's graduating from Grand Rapids
Community College and they wanna become an engineer. Maybe, you know,
there are a good enough student and they always really wanted to go to the
University of Michigan. So, I would work with that staff person at Michigan to see
if the possibility of that student transferring over there and then because of the
support program they have, you know, not only would help them, they'd help
them through the whole process, a lot of times, even if they were only working,
say, in financial aid. You know they would still say, well this is a good place to
live or, you know you don't really need a car, or maybe you need to find a place
to park a car outside the city and then use the public system within the city to get
around. Ann Arbor is, you know, a real different type of city than Grand Rapids,
and also bringing that up. I also I had, say like I had students, because I would
work, like with you know, with Waylon or Hopkins and the students from there
might want to go to like the University of Michigan or Michigan State University,
and you know it's a totally different system. You know and I had some success
but I also had a few that maybe were not quite as successful. They get into, you
know, that huge environment and it was just too overwhelming for some
students.
[Lin]
Was there departments or offices on campus that helped deal with that transition
period between living at home going to high school to a bigger university like
that?
8|Page
�[June]
You mean with here?
[Lin]
With any school.
[June]
Oh yeah there's all -- it's just a matter of finding the support system, and that's
basically like what I would do through my program, is we would dig in the
background and find out what needed to be done. You know to make that person
that student successful and where they wanted to go.
[Lin]
Do you have-- um-- did you used to work, you know like Ron and several other
people had worked at the Native American Alternative School, that was at
Lexington I believe. Did you work specifically with that school?
[June]
Not specifically with that, because that, when they first started out they weren't
part of the public school system. It was Title IVC and it was part of inter-tribal
council.
[Lin]
So you worked closely with inter-tribal council?
[June]
Well I actually, I was working with a Native American program at that time and
our office was there.
[Lin]
So yeah?
[June]
Well not really, because we were part of the Grand Rapids Public Schools. So, I
worked with the schools as a paraprofessional.
[Lin]
And where were all those offices located at the time?
[June]
Well let's see, we had an office, we started -- where did we start out at? We
started out at Lexington, then we went to Westside Complex, and then we went
back to Lexington and that's where they were when I went on maternity leave.
And then after that I think they went, that's when they went to West Bridge, West
Middle.
[Lin]
West Middle. Okay. I think that's when I started working there at West Middle.
Let's see, so. So, working in Grand Rapids, did you also live in Grand Rapids
too? Or did you live south of?
[June]
Well I did live here but not when I worked here. I worked -- I lived south of here
when my son was, I think he was about four, we moved to Cutlerville. So it wasn't
that far away.
9|Page
�[Lin]
What was Grand Rapids like for Native people back then.
[June]
Oh I don't know. We used to have a lot of fun. [Laughs] We had a lot of different
things you know and we had all our get-togethers and know you we really worked
as a close community and so, and when we did projects we did as a community.
We didn't do it as say, one person. That's the person that's responsible for
everything that went on. We worked together as though there was a number of
people that were all contributing in their various areas. When we started the
Native American Coalition, it was actually the brain child of Laura Church. She
brought in the resources to figure out how we wanted do this. The coalition,
whether we wanted to be our standalone entity, or whatever, and since all the
members were all--usually came from nonprofit organizations it seemed kinda
silly for us to become a nonprofit organization. So that's why we went with the
coalition route. I can't think of any of the people around any of the organizations
around here that didn't contribute when we first started out. We used to have the
Back to School program. Again, that was kinda like a Laura Church idea and
everybody just kinda though, “Aw, it's a great idea!” We all got in, everybody
made contributions, and everybody--one group would bring in the food, and then
another group would bring in projects, and another one would bring in--We had
educational centers that would come in and share their information with the
community. In the Native community setting, besides back to school supplies.
You know? So it was like a--like a whole little community affair fair. [Laughter]
They used to be a lot of fun, a lot of work, it was a lot of work. And I don't think
that if not everybody had gotten involved we would have been able to do that.
But, we didn't rely on just one person doing everything. Which is--which is really
what tribal communities are all about. A lot of times, you'll get a person in there
and they're the ones that want all the glory. So it's always--"Well I brought these
people together, or I did this." Once you start doing that then everybody start
backing away. Why should I contribute if you're not gonna give me any of the
glory? [Laughs] As a result, I think that was part of the reason why we don't have
a coalition any more.
[Lin]
Can you briefly explain the Native American Coalition?
[June]
Well, we were group of community organizations that wanted to help, assist,
inform, and recognize our community. So, we had kind of all-encompassing type
of mission statement. So, we had the Back to School program, we had
graduation parties, we had New Year's Eve parties. Used to have-- a lot of
communities had potlucks. Different celebrities would come in--like through
colleges or whatever. We would invite them to come and say: "We would like to
meet you, and would you like to come to our potluck?" And, many times they
would come. We would welcome new members of the community. For example,
when Jeff and Betty Davis came--We had a nice little organization. It was a lot of
fun to get together. I'm sure it really put them on the spot. [Laughs] them and
10 | P a g e
�their children. But you know it's just a fun getting together.
[Lin]
Who's Jeff and Betty Davis?
[June]
Jeff was the--was--on the--What do they call it? Assistant Attorney for-- Which
one is it? I can't think of--Brain fart.
[Lin]
He's a federal attorney, I believe.
[June]
Yeah, but he doesn't do it any more, 'cause he has a different function now--but
he was assistant attorney I think--I was gonna say he's looking at his phone.
[Lin]
Is he googling it?
[June]
Yeah. Probably. [Laughter]
[Lin]
And who is Betty Davis?
[June]
Well, at the time she was a wife, but she is now the director, I believe, of Native
American Education Program.
[Lin]
Besides the functions of the coalition put on, what other--You said there was a lot
of fun activities in Indian--In the Indian Community in Grand Rapids. What other
sorts of activities existed?
[June]
Oh, I forgot the vet's pow wow. The coalition used to do the vet's pow wow too in
November. Well we--there's the pow wows they have in the spring. That Grand
Valley would put one on, and then the other one--Well it's hosted down by the
Grand River Ottawa. The two pow wows. You know, once you get to the summer
time you have pow wows around the state. It's not stuck just to one community.
It's kind of a state-wide community.
[Lin]
So, what did your family do within the Native community? You and your children?
[June]
Well, when my son--As adults, my sons now are both attorneys, and um.
Matthew is a professor at Michigan State University. He's also judge at, I don't
know, six or seven different tribes. My younger son is private practicing attorney
that works with tribes. So, they both work in tribal law.
[Lin]
You proud of them?
[June]
Of course--
[Lin]
Mmm, I'm nosy.
11 | P a g e
�[June]
--and I got the greatest grandchildren. [Laughter]
[Lin]
You had mentioned that back-- Back in the day, like I don't know what time frame
that is, but the Native community was together, and planning functions, and
doing functions together. Do you see a difference in today's Native community?
[June]
Yes. I don't think we're as close as we used to be, and I don't know if it's because
people were--people my age we all kinda clan together anyway, the baby
boomers. Because we just did. Then maybe that just kinda rolled over into the
community at large because there were just so many of us about the same age.
So, we really enjoyed each other's company. We had the same rock stars, a lot
of the same backgrounds. With-- Neither of my parents went to boarding school,
but a number of our parents--our aunts and uncles, and other relatives did go to
boarding schools. I think we lost a lot, well I know we lost a lot, by doing that
because part of it is--a big part is the language. When I was little my grandpas
took care of me, because I had no grandmothers. So, we lived in Allegan County
was my grandpa Pete took care of us, and then when I lived up North it was my
grandpa Ben. They spoke Ottawa and Pottawatomie to me. When I dream about
them that's what they are speaking to me in my dreams, but I can't, I don't
understand what they're saying. [Laughter]
[Lin]
My next question.
[June]
But the little me does. Not the adult me. [Laughter]
[Lin]
Have they ever shared any stories about the boarding school with you?
[June]
Neither my grandpas went to boarding school. My aunt went briefly to Mount
Pleasant. She was one of the--I don't know. I think she's probably one of the last
ones to go to the Mount Pleasant boarding school? She didn't like being away
from home. So, she didn't continue--she only went one year. But my grandpa
would pay to have somebody drive down--drive her down to Mount Pleasant from
Kewadin. Then bring her home on holidays and weekends and stuff. My uncles-my grandpas’ brothers. Three of them went to the University of Michigan. My
Uncle George is in engineer, and two of them were in law. But one just started,
and then he was killed in accident. So he didn't finish. Then the other one died
also, so my Uncle George is the only one that actually made it through, then he
moved away. [Laughter]
[Lin]
Where did he move to?
[June]
He went into service with the government. Then I'd hear just some wonderful
stories, weird stories, about him. Mostly, it sounded like he was a civil engineer.
Then he went into government service, and settle down in Pennsylvania
12 | P a g e
�[Lin]
Okay.
[June]
So for when I grew up, I thought myself, my brother, and my dad were the only
actually named Mamagonas left. So you kinda grew up thinking well, you know,
this is it. We're the last ones with the name. Especially my brother, because my
cousins-- with my aunt--all married Churches. So, their name was all Church.
Then my dad's other brother had one daughter. Of course, she changed her
name. Of course, I change mine too eventually. But my brother would have been
the last one. Well, thanks to Facebook, we found out that George had three sons.
Each one of those three sons had like three or four children. Each one of those
three or four children had like five to eight children. So between Pennsylvania
and Florida, we're just like talking like zillions of Mamagonas. [Laughter]
[Lin]
Right.
[June]
You know, thinking that you're the only one. Then come to find out that there is
this whole group out there that all have your name. And think their Cherokee.
[Lin]
That's comforting. And they--they what?
[June]
They think they’re Cherokee. [Laughs]
[Lin]
Aw.
[June]
See what happens? You know, it goes on, and on, and on.
[Lin]
Right.
[Lin]
So growing up with you, and your family, and then your children-- Does religion
play a huge part of your spirituality?
[June]
Well we're religious. Belonging to the United Methodist Church. My kids grew up
within the church. But as you get older, you got things to do. [Laughs] So you go
to churches for weddings and funerals. [Laughs] At my age is more funerals than
not. [Laughs]
[Lin]
Aw. So back to the urban Grand Rapids area. Kind of the lifestyle and the time
period. What influences do you think that the National Indian, American Indian
Organization such as civil rights organizations or political organizations. I am
played in the Grand Rapids. why you're in the Grand Rapids area while you were
here?
[June]
Trying to think that far back. I would say none.
13 | P a g e
�[Lin]
None?
[June]
You know, we had-we had the Wounded Knee, and people would talk about it,
but that wasn’t here. If you look--I did a presentation many years ago. Part of that
was I wanted to see what kind of presence we had within the public eye. And, the
only times we were mentioned in the newspaper between this fifty-year period
was Wounded Knee back in what? 1889, ‘99, whenever it was, and Wounded
Knee again back in the seventies. Too. There was nothing else about it. It was
just like we did exist in all that time before or after. You know, Wounded--And
that's not even us! [Laughter] You know there was no mention. The Anishinabek
Community at all in the public eye. So when they, like when they did the
dedication of the of the statue in Ah-Nab-Awen Park, everybody goes: "Oh, look!
There's a statue to them!" Then, you know, it's just like people still think that you
live in teepees and ride ponies. Even when I used to do presentations. I had a
sixth grade I presented to. They wanted to know where my teepee was, and how
many horses I had. All I says is: "All I got is a Ford [Laughter] and I live in-- I live
in a ranch house right around the corner from here. They're going: "Oh!" And
these were--children that--kids that--my children went to school with.
[Lin]
Mhm. Do you see things changing?
[June]
Sure. Sure, I think there's a there's a lot of changes. There's--there's some
probably some backlash since there's a lot of children that are not identifiably
Indian. Like I am, or like you are. My grandson is one of them. I have a grandson
that's--When he lived up in Traverse City the kids would say: "You can't do this
because you don't look Indian." He still remembers that! Here he is thirteen years
old, and he was--Just year ago, he was tell me about that. He says: "So, does
that make me not Indian?" I say: "No" [Laughs] I says: " You are an Indian as part
of your- your heart, your heritage, and your history."
[Lin]
Yeah, it's a delicate balance between tribal citizenship--
[June]
Oh, right.
[Lin]
It’s very divisive.
[June]
And, its more difficult for those who don't. I also have two other grandsons that
are brothers. One's blonde hair blue-eyed, and the other is black hair brown-eye.
Everybody goes: "They're brothers?"
[Lin]
I have a couple of nephews that way too. So, if you could summarize into one to
two highlights about who you are as an urban native, what would you want to
pass on to the next generation?
14 | P a g e
�[June]
I think that you should be true to yourself, and what you stand for--and do the
best that you can do with whatever you decide to do. That's what my mother
said. Is if you think you wanna go into the public eye because you want to bring
out the history--then stand for that. If you want to improve the educational
background a of person-- Realize that you won't always get the glory, because
somebody else is always gonna be credited for what you do. That doesn't stop
you from doing what you want to do. If that's what you want to do, then do it.
[Lin]
Very nice. Is there anything that I didn't ask that you wanted to talk about?
[June]
Probably education. When I went to college my focus was on business, because
I didn't see myself as a teacher. I didn't see myself as an office worker, and I
didn't see myself as a nurse. Which the women in my family were nurses. My
mother, my aunts, my cousins. I got a lot of nurses there. I also had some
teachers. I think my family--I have 51 first cousins, and out of all those first
cousins every single one of them is graduated from high school. That was-- that's
one thing that is always been real prominent. Not only my family, but in my dad's
fami--My mom's family--But my dad's family too. I think that that was part of my
promotion for actually getting where I am at. Because, like I said, it wasn't my first
focus. Business was the area that I found most interesting. My mother was
always the one that said you gotta be educated. Which her father told her. You
gotta be educated so that you can support your children, because that's always
your number one priority. Your number two priority is your family. So, you got
your child, and you got your family. Then you have your community. I think those
are probably some of the things that kinda guided me as a made my decisions
through the--through the degrees that have gone through. I think having both
sides of my family be educated in one way, shape, or form, has helped kind of
support me in that area. I think overall my family at large has been real
supportive of us getting our education. 'Cause I'm not the only one who's
educated my family with the higher education. As a matter fact, one of my
cousins just got his doctorate. So, I'm gonna have a party on the thirtieth.
[Lin]
In what?
[June]
You know, I think it's philosophy. [Laughter]
[June]
Isn't that what PhD's are all about? [Laughs]
[Lin]
I don't know. I don't think I'll find out.
[June]
I know.
[Lin]
Never say never, right?
15 | P a g e
�[June]
Mhm.
[Lin]
Levi had sent me a couple of questions.
[June]
Oh, I wanted to say too, I was one of the first King Chavez Park Scholars. KCP
[Lin]
Oh.
[June]
Myself and a guy up north. We graduated the same year.
[Lin]
And that was a high school scholarship?
[June]
No. It was a graduate fellowship.
[Lin]
Nice.
[June]
That we both got. We both happened to finish at the same time. So, can't say we
were first. [Laughs]
[Lin]
So knowing now--If you knew now--If you knew back then what you know now,
would you continue? Would you have gotten an MBA? Or, would you have gone
into something different?
[June]
No, I think I would have stayed with what I went, because that's what I find most
interesting.
[Lin]
Business?
[June]
Mhm. I like to tell people what to do.
[Lin]
I like to do that too.
[June]
I know!
[Lin]
We're so good at it!
[June]
Bossy Odawa women. [Laughter]
[Lin]
I think that's all I have.
[June]
Okay
[Lin]
So.
16 | P a g e
�[June]
Well, thank you for inviting me. Thank you for sharing and asking.
[Lin]
Thank you for your participating in this project. I appreciate everything that you've
done and will do for the community.
[June]
It's nice to be noticed once in a while. [Laughter] okay
17 | P a g e
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0a16ce6b5e2dbd7ca90a0dce0457e945.mp3
db129eeaf846cdfca27c38088e6a8fac
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Gi-gikinomaage-min Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Native American Advisory Council
Grand Valley State University. Kustche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews with members of Grand Rapids' urban Native American population collected as part of the Gi-gikinomaage-min Project: Defend Our History, Unlock Your Spirit.
Translated from Anishinaabemowin, the original language of this area, Gi-gikinomaage-min means "We are all teachers." This is the name our project team choose to convey to the Native American community that through our stories and experiences, we are all teachers to someone. As we share those stories, we are allowing for our next generations to experience the past.
Grand Rapids’ Native American community grew dramatically in the last half of the 20th century as a result of a little-known federal program that still impacts American Indian lives today. Called the Urban Relocation Program, it created one of the largest mass movements of Indians in American history. The full scope of this massive social experiment and its impact on multiple generations of Native Americans remains largely undocumented and unexplored.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015/2016
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Gi-gikinomaage-min Project
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Subject
The topic of the resource
Indians of North America
Indians of North America--Michigan
Indians of North America--Education
Potawatomi Indians
Bode'wadmi
Ojibwa Indians
Anishinaabe
Navajo Indians
Dine'e
Cherokee Indians
Tsagali
Aniyunwiya
Archaeology
Mound-builders
Hopewellian culture
Indian arts--North America
Personal narrativse
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. Special Collections & University Archives
Identifier
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DC-10
Format
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audio/mp3
video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Sound
Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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DC-10_Fletcher_June_Mamagona_0416
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Fletcher, June Mamagona
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-04-06
Title
A name given to the resource
June Mamagona Fletcher interview (audio and transcript)
Description
An account of the resource
June Mamagona Fletcher is a member of the Match-E-Be-Nash-She-Wish Band of Pottawatomi Indians (Gun Lake). She was born in Detroit, Michigan and has lived in Dorr and Grand Rapids, Michigan. She holds an MBA from Grand Valley State Unviersity as well as degrees from Western Michigan University and Grand Rapids Community College. In this interview, she discusses her family history, education, and the Native American community in Grand Rapids.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Bardwell, Belinda (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Potawatomi Indians
Bode'wadmi
Personal narratives
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Indians of North America
Indians of North America--Michigan
Indians of North America--Education
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Gi-gikinomaage-min Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Sound
Text
Format
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b24f9329946a800bfb20ce59d7f2be8f.pdf
c287b693d489e86a108a0bcd3f824d05
PDF Text
Text
Native American Oral Histories
Gi-gikinomaage-min Project
Interview: Jeff Chivis
Interviewer: Belinda Bardwell
Date: October 10, 2016
[Lin]
Okay so I am recording an interview with Jeff Chivis. My name is Lin Bardwell.
The date is 10/10/16. Jeff can you tell us a little bit about yourself?
[Jeff]
Yeah, I am a professor at Grand Valley State University. I finished my
dissertation at Michigan State University and I studied the Middle Woodland
communities of West Michigan, Northwest Indiana, and Norton Mounds is one of
the sites that was part of my dissertation research.
[Lin]
So the purpose of this interview too, is to help with us writing an article
connecting or disconnecting the community, currently here historically, um, in the
Grand Rapids area to those of the Norton Mounds. Is there - what is the full
argument for the disconnect between them and us and is there a scientific proof
that does connect us to those of the Norton Mounds?
[Jeff]
Well first off I wouldn't say that there's a disconnect. Perhaps. I think the better
way to look at is that there's no way to clearly state that those people were the
ancestors of people, Native people, living in Michigan now. And more specifically
tribes of today. So Potawatami, Ojibwa, Odawa peoples. Those, the people who
lived in Norton Mounds could have been related not only to us but other tribes in
the Midwest and, you know, elsewhere. So the issue is trying to draw a cultural
link from artifacts that were created, you know, two thousand years ago and
applying those links to modern day people and that's where the issue is. We can't
determine archaeologically whether or not those people with the ancestors of a
specific tribe in this area.
[Lin]
Okay. Why do you say two thousand years?
[Jeff]
That's the day of the Norton Mounds. It dates to about 10 B.C. so we're looking
about two thousand years ago.
[Lin]
Okay, how does the Mounds get the name Norton?
[Jeff]
I believe it was one of the land owners who own the property when it was first
excavated.
[Lin]
So I know they're also connected to the Hopewellian people. Where does that
name come from?
�[Jeff]
[Lin]
Uh, the Hopewell site in Ohio. Essentially that um, it's a time period where there's
a vast trade network in all of Eastern North America including the construction of
burial mounds. Some of the more elaborate types of artifacts that we see that are
included in those mounds. So, yeah, it comes from the Hopewell site. The type
site for the Hopewell time period.
So the Hopewell time period. Where did - I read somewhere that came from that
original land owner, his last name.
[Jeff]
Hopewell.
[Lin]
Hopewell. Okay. Is there another term that could be associated with this,
Hopewellian name?
[Jeff]
There a lot of local expressions throughout the Eastern United States that they're
also known by. We have the Norton tradition, the Converse tradition here in
Michigan. We have, you know, other traditions around you know Eastern United
States, but they're all essentially hope Hopewell people having Hopewell
characteristics of burial mounds and sort of long-distance trade networks.
[Lin]
Are there other mounds that may not exist anymore, or still exist that are
connected also with the Norton Mounds and the Hopewellian Mounds of Ohio? Is
that what you said, Ohio?
[Jeff]
Yep, Ohio and Illinois. Culturally the people in West Michigan here in Norton
Mounds were more closely related, based on cultural similarities and artifacts,
they are most closely related to those people in Illinois and Indiana
[Lin]
Okay.
[Jeff]
It's only later on that we see the strong influence from Ohio.
[Lin]
Okay. Um, so. You are a native person, correct?
[Jeff]
Yes. Yes.
[Lin]
Do you have a tribal affiliation?
[Jeff]
Yes, Nottawaseppi Huron Band of Potawatomi.
[Lin]
And you are a native archaeologist. In your studies, do you feel that there's a
difference between native and non-native archaeologist when looking at and
studying the Norton Mounds or the mounds?
�[Jeff]
[Lin]
That's a tough question. I think native archaeologists have a stronger connection
to to the mounds, of course, because of our history. But I think sometimes nonnative archaeologists could not really consider strongly enough the opinions of
native people and native archaeologists.
What is important to you about the mounds?
[Jeff]
Well I think it really is proof of a long history of our people in this region, and I
think it can be a really important teaching site. The place, it's still place that's
used by modern Native American people for prayer. So I think it's, and
considering that it's one of the few remaining mounds sites in West Michigan still
that date to that time period, it's really important.
[Lin]
Why do you think history wants to separate them, as people, connected to us, as
current citizens?
[Jeff]
I think part of the problem has to do with the dichotomy of, you know, the very
words history versus pre-history. History, basically according to that structure
begins with the arrival of Christopher Columbus and everything thereafter.
Whereas the word pre-history sort of, almost relegated to something less than
the history itself. So, I think that's really a problem, that you see it in the literature,
and even in academia where archaeologists are talking pre-history versus
history. But I think that's one of the main issues that's should get rectified
eventually.
[Lin]
What impact do you think it has on native people today, when our, when the
native people's communities before Christopher Columbus, is considered prehistory?
[Jeff]
Well I think, I think it's insulting for one. And I think more contemporary
scholarship basically has attempted to do away with that term. And instead, we
use the term pre-Columbian, and we don't even use pre-history any more.
[Lin]
Okay. Anything else you'd like to add about the Norton Mounds that I didn't ask
you?
[Jeff]
No, not really.
[Lin]
So you said the mounds are created, or have been dated, back to two thousand
those of the Norton Mounds in Grand Rapids, correct?
[Jeff]
Two thousand years ago. Yes, 10 B.C.
[Lin]
And how are those mounds created?
�[Jeff]
Well basically using different types of dirt, and successively building different
layers to create the mound. In the middle there's sort of a central crypt area, and
here I'll show ya. [papers rustling] So this the plan view, or the profile of, a
mound. Essentially most of the mounds in Michigan were buried this way just like
in Illinois and Indiana. In Ohio and they're different. So, anyway you have
different types of gravel and different types of dirt and so they're used to build up.
You have a ramp here. The barrows would have been in the central crypt area as
well as most of the other artifacts. Sometimes barrows were included in the ramp
area as well.
[Lin]
So how did we, how did we figure this out? How do you know that this is the cut
through, slice through, of the mound?
[Jeff]
Because the University of Michigan conducted those excavations and they
essentially dug trenches in the middle of those mounds. So, you can see the
stratigraphy, or different layers, successive layers that accumulated. So that's
where those drawings are coming from, from those excavations.
[Lin]
How does that make you feel as an archaeologist?
[Jeff]
Well, it's certainly something that wouldn't be practice today. Especially in
Michigan here. I think archaeologists are well aware that, you know, digging into
burial mounds is no longer fashionable or acceptable. But back then, it certainly
was. And that's, unfortunately that happened, but we are able to gain some
information that we otherwise would not have had.
[Lin]
Right, it's a delicate balance between wanting to know, and wanting to be
respectful.
[Jeff]
That's right.
[Lin]
How does that make you feel, as Anishinaabe?
[Jeff]
I, I really don't. Like I said, the political, I mean politically it was entirely different
back then, in the sixties and fifties. So I don't really hold anything against those
individuals really.
[Lin]
How many -
[Jeff]
Like I said it's nothing that would be done today.
[Lin]
Right. How many mounds do you think we've lost? Is there a way to tell?
�[Jeff]
Well almost all of them. Like I said, Norton Mounds is one of the few, if not the
only, mounds that are still standing today. There are some in Muskegon River
Valley near Newaygo. There's a couple other smaller sites. All the most important
burial mounds, they've been bulldozed, either for building cities or looters came
and essentially destroyed them.
[Lin]
Right. Is it the Norton Mounds that were first excavated or started to be dug into
in the eighteen hundreds?
[Jeff]
Yep, by looters. Yeah.
[Lin]
Okay.
[Jeff]
And, but that that was common everywhere for all the mounds in the area.
[Lin]
Does Grand Valley State University have any other holdings in their collections?
[Jeff]
No.
[Lin]
No. they've all been -
[Jeff]
Everything's been repatriated or dispositioned -
[Lin]
dispositioned?
[Jeff]
back to the tribes.
[Lin]
What about other universities, such as Michigan State, U. of M.?
[Jeff]
Related to Norton Mounds?
[Lin]
No, funeral, you know, funerary.
[Jeff]
I believe most of the universities in Michigan have returned those back to the to
the tribes. There are universities in Indiana, Illinois, and Ohio especially, where
they needs to be a lot more work done. They have many artifacts and even our
ancestors still.
[Lin]
Okay. Alright. Anything else? Alright. Thanks Jeff
�
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c46a8097dbf1e7695d08f91bc8097d58.mp3
5745b8be373ccb81f1c8a9f9ccaded08
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Gi-gikinomaage-min Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Native American Advisory Council
Grand Valley State University. Kustche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Interviews with members of Grand Rapids' urban Native American population collected as part of the Gi-gikinomaage-min Project: Defend Our History, Unlock Your Spirit.
Translated from Anishinaabemowin, the original language of this area, Gi-gikinomaage-min means "We are all teachers." This is the name our project team choose to convey to the Native American community that through our stories and experiences, we are all teachers to someone. As we share those stories, we are allowing for our next generations to experience the past.
Grand Rapids’ Native American community grew dramatically in the last half of the 20th century as a result of a little-known federal program that still impacts American Indian lives today. Called the Urban Relocation Program, it created one of the largest mass movements of Indians in American history. The full scope of this massive social experiment and its impact on multiple generations of Native Americans remains largely undocumented and unexplored.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2015/2016
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Gi-gikinomaage-min Project
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In Copyright
Subject
The topic of the resource
Indians of North America
Indians of North America--Michigan
Indians of North America--Education
Potawatomi Indians
Bode'wadmi
Ojibwa Indians
Anishinaabe
Navajo Indians
Dine'e
Cherokee Indians
Tsagali
Aniyunwiya
Archaeology
Mound-builders
Hopewellian culture
Indian arts--North America
Personal narrativse
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. Special Collections & University Archives
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DC-10
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/mp3
video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Moving Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DC-10_Chivas_Jeffrey
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Chivis, Jeffrey
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2016-10-10
Title
A name given to the resource
Jeffrey Chivis interview (audio and transcript)
Description
An account of the resource
Jeffrey Chivis is a member of the Nottawaseppi Huron Band of the Potawatomi, and is originally from Grand Rapids, Michigan. Chivis graduated with a bachelor’s degree in Anthropology from Grand Valley State University (GVSU), and obtained his master’s degree and Ph.D. in Anthropology from Michigan State University (MSU). He is a professional archaeologist with a focus on historic preservation and the pre-Columbian archaeology of the Eastern United States. Previously, Chivis worked as a professor at MSU, GVSU, and Grand Rapids Community College, teaching courses on the diversity of Native American societies in North America and contemporary issues affecting Native American people. Dr. Chivis also previously worked for NHBP, creating its Cultural and Historic Preservation Office, Tribal Historic Preservation Office, and repatriation program. In this interview, Chivis discusses Native archeological sites in the Midwest and in Michigan.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Bardwell, Belinda (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Potawatomi Indians
Bode'wadmi
Personal narratives
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Archaeology
Mound-builders
Hopewellian culture
Indians of North America
Indians of North America--Michigan
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Gi-gikinomaage-min Project
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/mp3
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng