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Warren and Joan Valleau- Interview by Lissa Morgan
June 6, 2018
0:00 LM: Oh. Ok. Now it’s recording. So all right. So this is Lissa Morgan, and I am here
today with Warren, and what’s your last name?
0:09
WV: Valleau
0:10 LM: Valleau. At the Saugatuck Douglas Historical Center in Douglas, Michigan. On
June 7th, or 6th. June 6th, 2018. This oral history is being collected as part of the Stories of
Summer Project, which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for the
Humanities Common Heritage Program. Thank you for taking the time to talk to me today. I am
interested in learning more about your family history and your experiences of summer in the
Saugatuck Douglas area. So, I’m going to ask you if you’ll tell me your full name, and then spell
it, and I already asked this, but anyway, if you’ll just tell me your full name and spell it.
1:00 WV: Do I start? full name is Blake B-L-A-K-E. Valleau, uh, Warren W-A-R-R-E-N.
Valleau. V as in Victor, A-L-L-E-A-U.
1:12
not
LM: Ok. Um, and it says, “Do you use any accents when spelling your name?” Probably
1:18
WV: no
1:19 LM Even though that sounds kind of like a French name [laugh] ok. Would you like to
speak also? Go ahead
1:28
JV: I’m Joan. J-O-A-N. Valleau. V-A-L-L-E-A-U. Warren’s wife
1:32 LM: Ok. Great. So tell me about where you grew up, because I think this says
“childhood family” even though you didn’t really grow up here, but your family has a long
history here. So, if you can tell me about that.
1:47 WV: It starts with, uh, my grandfather on my mother’s side. Hyram Macintosh. He was
superintendent of schools in Allegan, and at that time the longest superintendent, I think still, uh,
was superintendent of schools in Allegan. When he retired, he came to Saugatuck because they
had no retirement funds, uh, in the school system. And, uh, he sold his house in Allegan, moved
to the farm, and, he bought the Dick farm D-I-C-K farm. It was the largest peach farm in the
area. The Dick
2:25
LM: Oh a peach farm
2:25 WV: The Dick farm, got, they built a brick house. Back to the Dick Farm. They built a
brick house right where the Shell Gas Station is today. And that was, a, uh, in those days, quite a
mansion. And uh, they had just completed the house and the peaches got a blight. So that little by
little they had to sell off the hundreds of acres that they had of peaches
�2:54
LM: Oh. Is this the Shell Gas station where? Right over here or
2:57
WV: On 6, on 60th. Near 60th.
3:01
LM: ok. Ok.
3:02
WV: yeah. Across from Burger King
3:04
LM: Yeah. Yeah. OK. Got it
3:04 WV And, actually, there, the yard bushes are still there, the, at least it was. A year or so
ago they had a forsithia (?) and they had different types of plants
3:15
LM: Oh really, yeah
3:17 WV: They’re still up at the house, uh, the Dick was a relative. Uh, of my, of the
Macintoshes. Um, uh
3:30
JV: That, that’s your mother’s side
3:31 WV: That was mother’s side of the family. And they, they uh, had a farm, a full farm, uh,
with apples, peaches, and pears and you name it and chickens and everything. Grapes. They had
the first blueberry, blueberries grown in this area. Uh, and they were number 11, I think it was
number 11 of the Michigan Blueberry association
3:58
LM: Oh really? Yeah
3:59 WV: And they had just a little patch. Just maybe, uh, oh maybe a half acre. And, uh, they
also had a dairy. The Macintoshes had a berry, dairy. And uh, called the Highland Dairy. A very
rare bottles to find. Those are mostly gone. Uh, and then across the road at 63rd was the, the Low
Dairy. Created by my Uncle Russel Valleau. He was one of the oldest. I’m not sure if he was the
oldest or next to the oldest. And, uh, he was my father’s oldest brother, because my father was
the youngest of 14 kids
4:45
LM: Oh my goodness
4:46 WV: [throat clear] so he asked my father to come to the area to be a partner in the dairy
because he, he was injured in World War 2, World War 1. And, uh, he just needed help on the
farm. They were, uh, I kind of prepared to talk about, uh, Mt. Baldhead Hotel, which was my
uncle’s hotel. But we’ll hold that off I guess. I can go too long
5:15: LM: Wow, because you’ve got, I mean, of all of the 14 kids, how many of them lived
around here?
�5:23 WV: Uh, Uncle Russel was the only one. And uh, Aunt Verna, his wife. Uh, Merlin, my
cousin, was then, part of the time. Uh, they lived on the, the, uh, east side of 63rd street. They
owned 100, 140 acres maybe? We had 120 on our side. I say our side, but
5:56
LM: Yeah. But you said you were born in Grand Rapids?
5:59 WV: I was born at yeah. Butterworth Hospital. And the reason why is uh, my, uh, the
reason why we went to Grand Rapids is uh (?) it’s a lot of history, I’m going to try to reduce it
down. Um, anyway, they um, let’s see. My
6:20 JV: But I think you have to say something about your grandfather was the superintendent
of schools about 18, uh, 90’s to about 19, uh
6:32
WV: 10
6:33
JV: Yeah, through 1910
6:35
LM: Ok. So, and then he came in when he retired, so that would have been
6:37
WV: He came in 1910. 1910
6:42
JV: Uh, 19, your mother was born in 1905, and
6:43
WV: Yeah, but he came in 10, 11, 12, about 12
6:48
LM about 1912. He came here and bought a farm
6:54 WV: and the deed we have on the farm is back to the Indians. And we lost the farm
recently, but we have the old deed. Uh, what was unique about the farm, on the Macintosh side
was it was owned by the Tolbridge (?) Johnson Plaque. And, uh, Tolbridge Johnson was
Johnson’s Wax. This will not be found in your history.
7:21
LM: Oh interesting
7:21 WV: But I met the historian of Johnson’s Wax and told, when we had a gift shop form
the foundry, we built the um, foundry where my father always wanted to build a foundry. On the,
on the corner of the property. And we had an old, we had an old furnace there. As a kid I used to
climb over it as a little kid. And he said someday I’m going to, I’m going to get that furnace
going, and we’re going to have one here. My father, uh, my mother, uh, let an old nag. He was
working for with his brother, and he let an old nag go. And I don’t remember her name, uh, that
gave him an excuse to go over and see this little cute filly that was across the road, Jean
Macintosh.
8:10
LM: [laugh]
8:11
WV: And
�8:12
LM: Is that how he used to say it?
8:14 WV: And, and Jean was a painter. She painted with Carl Herman. Carl Herman was a
very close friend of my dad’s, and um, sorry, my grandfather. Because they both spoke fluent
German. So my first indoctrination of it was hearing all these stories of, uh, Carl Herman and my
grandfather. Most of the picture frames that were made for the Oxbow were made in the barn on
63rd. That barn
8:45
LM: Oh wow! You do have a lot of history. Oh my goodness
8:50
WV: Well it’s
8:50
LM: So when did you start coming to Saugatuck as a little kid then from Grand Rapids?
8:54 WV: Uh, we well, we lived on the farm. My grandfather still lived on the farm. My
brother, oldest brother. 12 years older. Mac, though, spent a lot of time there, even though he
went to school in Grand Rapids. He spent the summers down there. And, uh, what happened was
they travelled back and forth, but it was really from Chicago. What happened in 19, what
happened was, my uh, father for, I don’t know, 10, 15 years tried to get my mother to say I do.
9:26
LM: Oh really? It took that long?
9:27 WV: It took a long time. And uh, they were out at the the Fursman’s (?) party out at the
light house when my father proposed to her. Thought maybe she was in the mood. And he said I
do, and he just about fainted. Really. Just about fainted. He said he almost had to sit down.
9:50
LM: Oh. Isn’t that cute?
9:51 WV: Yeah. So they had, uh, actually they had a real speed wagon that he’d take her on
dates in those pretty, those pretty rough it was, but anyway, anyway they, uh, but that was in
1929. That they got married. And they were married out there on the farm, and uh, most of the
local people showed up at the wedding. Wheelen made the flowers. From the Wheelen East, later
had the Wheelen, uh, Nursery. And, uh, for her bouquet. And uh the farm had, the part of the
barn had, what I remember the part of the barn had collapsed a little bit. All the tools were on the
wall and that’s were, that’s were Carl Herman and my grandfather made the picture frames. They
made them because, well they needed them at Oxbow. My mother was going to Oxbow at the
very beginning. Carl Herman came to Saugatuck, this is the real story, Carl Herman came to
Saugatuck. He stayed at Mrs., uh, Mrs., uh, [laugh] Mrs. Simpkin’s house. Which is uh, which is
uh, which is Roy Peterson’s home today
11: 21 LM: Ah yeah
11:21 WV: And she catered to artists, and the, so he came there and he said, oh this would
make a wonderful click. I didn’t know the difference between click and quick
�11: 34 LM: Quick
11:34 WV: And Mrs. Peder told me
11:38 LM: ok [laugh]
11:39 WV: She said “I think you’d better know the definition.” Anyway. She didn’t know
either. But he said, oh he said I want to show my, my, first. I’m sorry. Uh, Carl Herman said I
want to bring my fiancé here. And he did. And uh, that’s how it all started. They, he invited Mr.
Fursman, who was his friend in New York, and they all came, and they said “Yes, it would make
a quick all right. We could start something art here.” Because of the natural beauty in the dunes.
Anyway that, uh, that kind of started the that uh, that side. Uh. Sorry
12:30 LM: So your, your, I mean your parents got married then, but are you one of the younger
children then?
12:34 WV: I’m the youngest
12:34 LM: you’re the youngest
12:35 WV: My brother was 12 years older.
12:38 LM: Ok. Ok.
12:38 WV: but yeah
12:40 LM: Yeah, yeah. Because they got married pretty young. I mean that was 1929, did you
say they got married?
12:44 WV: Yeah. And they married when he was I think 28. And I never really looked at the
dates, I was supposed to write a book but
12:54 LM: You should. Oh my goodness. So then, so then you started your your older brother
spent a lot of time
13:02 WV: With his grandfather to stay with him and help him out and basically
13:05 LM: And that would have been in the 40’s or?
13:10 WV: That was in the, that was in the probably the 30’s.
13:14 LM: 30’s. OK
13:18 WV: uh, let’s see. 30’s and 40’s actually.
13:20 LM: 30’s and 40’s?
�13:22 WV: Yeah. He would, uh, the unusual part of my brother was that he called his mother
and dad Jean and Law. My Dad’s name was Law. And the reason why his oldest brother,
Lawrence, and they couldn’t use that, and they wanted Law, so L-A-W. And, uh, the uh, I’ve got
to get back on track here
13:40 LM: It’s all right. You can kind of meander. I mean it’s so interesting. I mean, the focus
here is supposed to be from the 50’s and 60’s, but the thing is it’s worth it to talk a little bit like
you are because you’re approaching where you, you know, where you come in. In the 50’s and
60’s, and there’s so much. It goes back so far, um
14:09 WV: Well we started, my father, um went to Chicago. During the Depression. Brought,
they had an old truck, farm truck. My father would fill that full of vegetables from 3 or 4 farms.
The Lobenoffer’s farm and several others, the Vulls, and so forth into Chicago. And he knew
how to hawk them
14:32 LM: Yeah, hawking. Yeah. Yeah.
14:34 WV: And he would come back with money, which they didn’t have around here. They
had food, but Chicago had no food
14:40 LM: Right, but not the actual right
14:42 WV: So it worked out very well, and that’s the reason he married my mother and got an I
do is probably that he had a job in Chicago.
14:50 LM: And he was a f—
14:56 WV: And he was a foundry man. Well, he wasn’t then. He went, he had a job when there
were no jobs. Men were just lined up in Chicago. To get in to do anything. And he got it. And
this old German who was a molder which is the highest rank that you can have in foundry men is
molder was the most important. He said, my father kept saying “I’d like to learn how to mold.”
He said, “yeah. You and a million others.” This was our trade. He befriended him, and he said, “
well, if you stay at night, I’ll teach you how to mold.” Well, when he started to mold, he came
home, here, and he said, uh, to his father in law “Macintosh, is there something you’d like me to
cast?” He said, “Well, yes, sir, Law. I’d like you to cast a school bell.” That’s how this school
house became a part of our thing. This was the beginning of the school house. And, uh, so he
brought back a bell and Professor Macintosh had to take his bell back to school cause he was still
involved in 1929. It’s in their history, in Allegan history
16:15 LM: Oh is it? Yeah.
16:18 WV: Yeah, the old school pictures of him and so forth.
16:20 LM: Oh they, yeah, yeah
�16:24 WV: And, uh, um, so, the haunting side, after it kind skips the, the haunting side is every
time I’d go for a permit, I wanted to build a foundry here. We had one in Grand Rapids. Now the
unusual thing a foundry in Grand Rapids, it was the front doors of now the Gerald Ford Museum
16:44 LM: Oh really
16:46 WV: I remember it
16:47 LM: Yeah.
16:48 WV: Where Gerry invited us to the dig. And that’s another whole story, but that’s a
Grand Rapids story. But this was our background is the Henry Ford Museum today. And that
was the oldest foundry in Grand Rapids. Back with the Indians. They persuaded the Indians to, I
mean that’s another history itself. But they, they did persuade the Indians to have a black smith,
so they shop to shoe their own horses.
17:15 LM: In the name of
17:16 WV: The black smith
17:17 LM: In the name of
17:18 WV: The name of the foundry was called Harring. And then it became Harring Foundry.
The reason why it was, you’ve heard of the Atwood Brass in Grand Rapids?
17:28 LM: No
17:29 WV: Well that was an old marine hardware. It still is today. Uh, well that was kind of the
start of my getting about too
17:38 LM: When was the foundry, um, started here? When was that?
17:43 JV: 1971
17:43 WV: 1971
17:44 LM: Oh 71. Ok. So the Grand, so it was in, I mean this kind of work was in the family
for quite a long time then
17:51 WV: Very much so. My father. Yeah.
17:52 LM: In Grand Rapids and then finally in the 70’s here
17:53 WV: Well, in Chicago. And then St. Louis. They went to St. Louis.
17:58 LM: Oh they went to St. Louis too
�17:59 WV: Yeah. Opened a foundry there. And she’s, I remember my mother saying, “Every
day you had to wash the widows! Every day!”
18:07 LM: [laugh] Your memory’s incredible. I mean really. You remember all the names and
everything. I mean that goes back two, that’s like three generations really. Grandparents and,
what were
18:19 WV: Well we’re only born back to Isle Delray (?) and (?) uh, uh, France. We were, we
were the Huguenots that uh, came over here in 1764.
18:40 LM: Oh
18:42 WV: And, uh, we were being persecuted by the Catholic church, and we took our last
stand in Isle Delray and (?), which were like Saugatuck and Douglas. They weren’t really that
large. And it ended up that my cousin became in 1900, cousin I’d guess you’d call him, became a
bishop in the church only a short time. But he became a bishop. They had to, they were
Christian. They were Knights Templar so they had to, they had to give in or be killed, even after,
way after the, well I’m not a good historian to tell you that side. But that’s uh, so anyway, our
family moved to New York, and then we went to Michigan. And Ohio
19:32 LM: Ohio. Yeah
19:34 WV: Ohio Basin area. And, uh, that’s another, that’s another, oh area there
19:39 LM: You should have been a historian I guess then. You have, you have enough
information to write a book
19:43 WV: Well that’s nothing
19:45 LM: I don’t want to, I don’t want to move you. But I would like to talk about, um, you
said you had some information about a hotel. You said your uncle
19:55 WV: Yes. Uh, the reason I brought the blueberries up, and, and see the, my uncle, I’m
going back. My uncle
20:04 LM: That’s all right. We can go all over the place. It doesn’t matter. They’re the ones
that are going to have to make sense of it all [laugh]
20:07 WV: My uncle bought, the how he bought it and so forth I don’t have any history of that
but
20:14 LM: This was your father or mother
20:14 WV: This was my father’s, my, uh, Uncle Russel
�20:18 JV: [cough]
20:20 LM: OK
20:21 WV: Which was the oldest brother, married Verna, uh, I don’t remember her maiden
name. And, uh, her sister was Rea Jackson. And Harry Jackson were the two owners of the hotel.
20:34 LM: OK
20:34 WV: Mt. Baldhead hotel
20:35 LM: Ok.
20:36 WV: This was in the 30’s, 40’s, and 50’s
20:40 LM: Ok
20:41 WV: Then it, uh, either burned or, not sure what happened. To the hotel, but anyway the
Mt. Baldhead Hotel. The thing I remember about it was, the thing I really remember was Uncle
uh, Uncle, uh, Harry Jackson. Uncle Harry, uh, having to pardon himself from my dad. My dad
brought milk over. He wasn’t part of the dairy, but he helped, he helped his brother at times,
when he was in town, he took some milk over because they had to take fresh milk over to, to the
hotel, and sometimes the chickens that they, you know, if they needed some chickens they took
some chickens grew out on 63rd. Um, so they uh, part of their income, my uncle Russel’s income
was, of course, all farming, but it was a hotel
21:41 LM: OK
21:41 WV: Because his brother in law owned the hotel. He had the contract for the milk. He
had the, for the cottage cheese, whatever they made
21:50 LM: Whatever they made, yeah. They would furnish the unit
21:52 WV: Yeah, I remember helping my uncle in the dairy which was just to the side of the
house. It wouldn’t have made health codes today
21:59 LM: [laugh] That was part of the farm you mean?
22:00 WV: [laugh] That was part of the farm
22:03 LM: Part of the farm
22:04 WV: Yeah. He had dairy cows
�22:04 LM: What was, was there a road then? What was that?
22:06 WV: 130, uh, 160, uh, 63rd and 132nd street. Right on the corner
22:10 LM: Oh, and that’s kind of where the high way is now, or no?
22:18 WV: Uh, it’s right where they’re, they’re building kitty corner across right now uh, the
big, the big mall. Uh, that whole area, they uh, right now it’s a horse ranch the front part of it. It
was, uh, divided out, uh, lotted out, and that’s one of the southern gulleys. That they have. They
have a gulley that goes feeds Silver Lake. And uh,
22:45 JV: Yeah, and the property was also part of the Ravine
22:48 WV: It was called the Ravines, yeah
22:49 LM: Ravine?
22:50 JV: mmhm
22:50 WV: Uh, yeah.
22:51 JV: The, the Ravine Golf Course? The Valleu, the Valleau, yeah.
22:54 WV: I cut and sold that
22:56 LM: So that’s that whole, that would be like all west of Silver, east I mean, east. Yeah
the high way
22:56 garbled interrupting each other
23:04 WV: Because my cousin Merlin started to buy up extra land and extra land, more land
for his cattle, and that’s a whole story in itself. What he did, uh, cattle, uh,
23:15 JV: Yeah. What we’re talking about also with the blueberries and what not, and they
want to go back to the 50’s. You were involved in, uh, the middle part of the 50’s, end of 50’s,
57 or so. You were 12, 13 years old, and your parents had the blueberry patch. Uh, 7 or 8 acres
of blueberries, and it was Warren’s responsibility to find the pickers, get the pickers to the patch,
pick the blueberries all summer long, and take the blueberries to the co-op of their association at
the age of 12 or 13. And it was his responsibility, and his parents were in Grand Rapids while he
was doing this at that age
24:04 LM: Oh, you stayed at your grandparents at that time?
24:05 WV: I stayed at, well actually, my grandfather died a week or two after I was born. He
just wanted to see me born and he died of fright
�24:15 LM: [laugh]
24:15 JV: [laugh]
24:15 WV: [laugh] and he was staying up in Grand Rapids. Uh, my parents bought a stone
house in Grand Rapids up on Front Street, Front- 4th Street, uh, and we fought the city to save,
we started the Historic District, uh, up on the hill, uh, by fighting the city because they wanted to
tear all the history
24:38 LM: All down, yeah.
24:40 WV: Down, all these stone houses made from the river quarry. They were all Victorian,
uh, not Victorian, below, before it. They were all Greek Revival houses, great big pillars on one
of the houses we tore down. And we hauled it to the farm. Uh, that was a time, really the city of
Grand Rapids didn’t care about history of course
25:05 LM: Any, any, uh, of that, that started, yeah, I remember when I was a kid and they
started, I mean I left around then when they started tearing everything down and then, my mother
was six. My parents had an antique shop for many years
25:18 WV: Where abouts?
24:19 LM: And my grandparents, in Hastings, and my grandparents, my father’s parents, had
an antique shop for 45 years. So, I mean there was a lot of respect and appreciation for that. And
especially architecture. That’s why, that’s one of the reasons I think that I have an interest in the
historical society here, you know, the importance of it. What I am interested in, and this just kind
of comes from my understanding, but what was it like to have this kind of contrast between the
farm, kind of the farm living, and then the art
25:53 WV: And the city?
25:54 LM: Yeah, and then the town, the small town of Saugatuck, and the art, you know,
Oxbow and all, how did that all? What was that, what was that like?
26:01 WV: Well, my mother was one of the first students at Oxbow, and she was with, uh, oh,
some of the, I don’t know if I can memorize the girls, some of the paintings, I can’t
26:13 LM: Ah, ah yes.
26:14 WV: Uh, they were all painting together. You had the Shippens (?), or the uh, uh,
Tomminsons (?), Dave Tomminson was the one that decide the golf, Arnold Palmer Golf course
out there. And he accepted it.
26:30 LM: He was an artist at Oxbow then or was a teacher?
�26:34 WV: He was uh, he was uh, no. Dave Tomminson was, uh, a, his father was an architect
in Chicago
26:44 LM: OK
26:44 WV: And, uh,
26:45 JV: Dorothy. His wife. Aunt Dorothy
26:48 WV: Yeah. Aunt Dorothy. They, they, uh, they were asked to design buildings in Pearl
Harbor. And they were there at the attack on Pearl Harbor, just, uh, the water was too oily to go
swimming that morning, and uh, they had taken these ships out that, I’m getting off track really,
but uh, they took these ships out that weren’t running at all. It was all set up, and they just pulled
those out so they could blow those up
27:16 LM: blow, oh
27:17 WV: and maybe not get the other ones too bad.
27:20 LM: Yeah
27:20 WV: But, um, so they when, as they pulled these old ships out, and they were waiting
for the Japanese. That’s what, you know. So that was quite a story and they still, um. My cousins
on that side of the family which were the Macintyre’s side, they still go to the uh, I don’t know if
they go anymore, but they used to go to the Pearl Harbor, um, group uh,
27:47 LM: Oh, the like memorial, yeah
27:48 WV: Dave was one of them, his sister Mary, now Mary was an artist here in Saugatuck.
Mary, uh, Tomminson, she’s uh in Grand, in Holland by the name of Mary Latell (?). And she’s
gotta be in her in 90’s, but she has pictures galore, uh, I mean of Saugatuck. Unbelievable. My
uncle, my uncle uh, uh, Tomminson had the first movie cameras. We have uh, movies, or they
do. They have movies of out at the, at the pier in Saugatuck and in Saugatuck, all movies, no one
could afford a movie camera, but he could because he was an architect.
28:37 LM: When was were those, when was that?
28:40 WV: It was during the, what’s the house I worked on in Grand Rapids?
28:44 JV: Frank Lloyd
28:45 WV: Frank Lloyd Wright, yeah. He worked with Frank Lloyd Wright, not together
exactly, but they were personal friends from Chicago. And so, they needed a movie camera. And
so they had a lot of movies. Even my grandfather, back, and I saw a copy of my grandfather.
And they weren’t used to movies. They were used to sitting upright, strong
�29:10 LM: Oh yeah. Right, very stern and all that
29:14 WV: [laugh] yeah. My dad threw a, in the movie threw a dog into my grandfather’s arms
so he’d move.
29:20 LM: [laugh] he moved!
29:22 WV: Anyway, so, uh
29:25 LM: So when did you come live here, like, um permanently?
29:29 WV: I, I started to well, permanently was uh, well, let’s see. Um. I’m not even sure of the
year
29:40 JV: It was uh, in 1971. You started building the foundry, uh, on 63rd Street, and uh, also
having the foundry, uh, in Grand Rapids running with
29:52 LM: So before then you would just come back and forth? Because you had a lot of
relatives here
29:57 WV: We came back and forth. I lived at, mostly out in Ada with my parents because we
lost the house with the demolition
30: 02 LM: In Ada? Ok.
30:04 WV: We moved out to Ada and, uh, so I got tired of driving back and forth til 12 o’clock
at night. My mother would have a meal for me. And my father was a little disturbed about that
30:15 LM: Yeah. Ok.
30:18 WV: [laugh] Anyway. Uh, good way to ween a son. Anyway, building the foundry, um,
was another whole, whole world because you don’t build a foundry in a town like this
30:30 LM: Yeah
30:31 WV: And I was told I was going to fail. And I bought Atwood Brass Foundry in Grand
Rapids. That’s a big Foundry. And moved the equipment to here. The one person to help me in
Saugatuck, the one person was a man who changed Saugatuck from being a total resort town
controlling the people, my uncle controlled them. Uncle Harry controlled the people to make
sure there was no industry in Saugatuck. They could hire the people, they, I could tell you all
about that
31:08 LM: No, that’s interesting, I mean yeah
31:08 WV: But that’s what he did. He made sure that they all they had a, a quick, a click, that’s
the word I’m thinking of. A click. That the people wouldn’t have permanent jobs around here.
�You would have to depend on the tourist traffic. So they could get all the people they’d need to
run a hotel.
31:28 LM: So, when your grandparents were here, then, um, and they had the farm, then were
the populations kind of, or, er, kind of divided by where the farmers did their work and the, like
you’re saying, the tourists and the and the, the whole town or?
31:45 WV: Yeah. What kept them together was the dairies. We have a lot of dairies in
Saugatuck that were old dairies. And you’d lose your job if you brought some milk in and it
didn’t last a day and if it didn’t last two days
31:58 LM: Yeah.
31:59 WV: You would have a competitor in there getting your contract.
32:03 LM: How many dairies were there?
32:03 WV: Oh, there was a lot of dairies
32:06 LM: Yeah
32:06 WV: And, uh, they all have their milk routes. Uh, Saugatuck Dairy, uh, handled most of
the hotel. That was their big part, when the hotel closed down, they, my uncle sold the, the cattle
farm, because they didn’t have that vine that they had to run the dairy
32:28 LM: Yeah, yeah,
32:29 WV: Yeah.
32:30 LM: And they were all around. Like all around the area?
32:32 WV: Oh, all around here. Yes. I wish I could name them all off, but
32:38 JV: Yeah, the um, the, um, let’s see, now the, the hotel was on the shore where ship and
shore is.
32:48 LM: Right
32:49 JV: And then across the street, then they lived in that
32:52 WV: Oh, I would like to tell you about that, is Mt. Baldhead. You’re right. Ok. What Mt.
Baldhead, um, Hotel, Aunt Rea and Uncle Harry lived across the street
33:08 JV: In the house, the brick house that’s across the street. The house across the street
that’s called the Ivy Inn
�33:19 WV: Ivy Inn yes
33:19 LM: Oh the Ivy Inn! Yeah, yeah. I stayed there. That is when I used to come alone, yeah,
that was
33:20 JV: That was their, that was their home and while they they managed
33:27 WV: Threw many a party
33:28 LM: Managed the
33:29 JV: Managed the hotel
33:32 WV: Yeah, and as kids, uh the hotel was still going, and uh, I hardly ever saw Uncle
Harry, but Aunt Rea was, uh, seemed always around. He was busy, busy doing this or that to run
this hotel. But they had a phone from the, uh, their house, the ho- to the hotel. And as a kid, my
cousins and I all tried to get that phone running. I bought these big batteries that were these big
D, C batteries, and we put one in one and one in the other, and we were cranking this all, and it
wouldn’t work
34:10 LM: cranking [laugh]
34:13 WV: And we’d yell across the street trying to get this phone running. We found the line
was down. We couldn’t get the line up, so those big batteries. The cost of those
34:27 LM: Yeah. Did you spend any time at the hotel, or just going to visit your, yeah, yeah
34:28 WV: Never at the hotel, but I’d go there with my dad to bring milk over, and he was,
he’d talk with my uncle. And I remember my uncle Harry having a big wad of ca- cash. This big.
It was like three inches in diameter. I’d never seen anybody with a round ball of money. And, uh,
my father, uh, I uh, let’s see, so my uncle Harry said “How much is the milk and the eggs from,
from Russel?” And he’d bring out this big ball of money and count out the money and give him
cash and. That was the day of the cash. That was the day that nothing was recorded. You’d pay
your bills in cash and never kept track of them, and, uh, the other thing that I remember is, this
was almost the same time, but it was over and over again, but was when Harry would go to the
cars because someone he’d recognize the people coming. They didn’t come for the day. They
came in for the week or two weeks or the summer
35:34 LM: Or the summer and stay at the hotel that long?
35:34 WV: Stay at the hotel. Yes. Yes. There were people with a lot of money from, from, uh
down in uh, Missouri, and, uh, Wisconsin, and, uh, mainly Chicago.
35:48 LM: How did they get up here? Because I know I read some um, information about how
they used to come by boat and yeah
�35:54 WV: Lake steamer. Little lake steamer
35:57 LM: My grand uncle. My dad’s uncle, um, worked as the captain of one of those
steamers that used to come this way. Yeah, yeah. He lived in Oak Park.
36:08 WV: He did
36:09 LM: Yeah, um, Illinois
36:10 WV: That’s Joan’s territory
36:11 LM: Oh is it?
36:13 JV: mm hm. Yeah. Yeah
36:14 WV: uh, Uncle Harry had three friends, uh, real close friends. One was Mor- Mork
Echton. Mork Echton.
36:22 LM: OK
36:24 WV: I think he was the captain of the Alabama. I’m not sure, but I think he was, uh, the
ex captain.
36:32 LM: And that came from where?
36:34 WV: That was from here
36:36 LM: Ok.
36:37 WV: There were three ships. We had three ships here that, uh, lake steamers. And the
Alabama was one, and they were parked in
36:48 LM: They were moored here, uh
36:49 WV: Yeah. Moored in Holland
36:51 LM: Oh, ok
36:52 WV: Moored up in Holland, uh, that I remember. They weren’t moored here, but, uh,
there. That’s what I remember. And, uh, Mork Echton would tell me old stories. That was little
whirl, but uh, um, the three of them, Uncle Harry and uh, a man by the name of Founders. It took
me, this morning I woke up, and I remembered his name
37:18 LM: Oh did you?
37:19 WV: Flanders! Flanders. F-L-A-N-D-E-R-S. Uh, the three of them were his close friends,
�so Uncle Harry had connections on how they could rent a garden out on 63rd. And so they got my
father to rent them land. My father said, “Look if you want some farm space, I’ll give it to you.”
“No, no. These guys can afford it, and they want to pay their way.” So I saw Uncle Harry very
little then. But they used the goods from the farm, from their farm, from their gardening for the
hotel and for themselves. And, uh, uh, Mork Etchton and, played a joke on me. I’ll never forget
that joke. It was, he trained me. He uh, we were racing on who could have the biggest
watermelon. Now I had the biggest watermelon. I babied that watermelon, and they, they knew it
too. They said, I’ll tell you what. Mork said “I’ll tell you what.” A lot of people knew Mork. I
mean he was, he was quite a guy
38:32 LM: So he was the, you said he was the
38:35 WV: Yeah, he was an old, he was an old captain
38:39 LM: Captain. Did he live in town?
38:40 WV: Yes
38:41 LM: And where did, did they go? Did they go up and down Lake Michigan then? On the
steamer?
38:46 WV: Well, that was before my time, because I think the boat was mostly moored in
Holland. They weren’t running, so that was before my time. I just heard stories. Oh yeah. He was
38:47 LM: Ok. Ok. All right. So he was an older guy? He was an older guy.
38:46 WV: To me, real old right. My age. Anyway they, did the gardening, and I was paid, uh,
by bribes. They’d bring me a candy bar, and I’d water their garden. But I watered my
watermelon, and it got so big they Mork said “I’ll tell you what. I will give you a quarter because
I think your watermelon probably is ready. I’ll pay you a quarter if you cut a little square in
there, a little pyramid, and, uh, see if it’s ripe.” And I said “Well, that will make it rot.”
Whatever. And he says “Oh, no, no, no, no, no.” He says “We’ll put it back together. If it isn’t
ripe we’ll put it back together. It’ll get ripe that way even quicker.” And I watched my
watermelon shrivel, and it came down and shrunk, I lost my watermelon
39:50 LM: Oh, no. He was totally wrong.
39:53 WV: He was wrong. But he gave me a quarter. Two bits. Two bits
39:56 LM: Which was good
39:57 WV: That was a lot of money. Two bits
39:58 LM: Yeah. Did people do that often where they would, um, rent, um parts of your
grandfather’s farm?
�40:05 WV: Not, no, not really
40:06 LM: I mean that’s kind of. Yeah
40:07 WV: That’s kind of an unusual situation. And that’s where Har, Uncle Harry had
connections, and Uncle Harry of Mount Baldhead, he would not only, uh, he would take people
hunting, fishing, uh, he had a, uh,
40:24 LM: It was part of the business, like that was part of the hotel
40:25 WV: That was part of the business yeah. And he’d take, uh, he’d take them hunting out at
the snake pit which.
40:32 LM: Where’s the snake pit?
40:35 WV: Now the snake pit was, and why it got its name, was up on Silver Lake, on the other
side. You’d have to go beyond Old Allegan Road, and then go up through the woods on the other
side, and uh, my cousin bought the snake pit. And he hated that name. He bought the bought the
build a home that was, uh, Dave Tomminson
40:56 LM: Was that Harry’s son you mean? Or no, no
40:59 WV: Dave Tomminson. Uh,
41:02 LM: Oh. Ok.
41:03 WV: He ended up buying it and putting a beautiful home in there. Anyway they, uh, uh,
that was my experience with Mork, Mork Etcheson and Mr. Flaunders. Flaunders [laugh]
41:15 LM: I have a question about when I interviewed my sister and she was here in the 60’s
[cough] in the mid 60’s. Just for a couple of summers. And one of the questions in here is
[cough] also, did you, when you were in Saugatuck, did you spend much time in Douglas, or did
you, my sister said “I don’t even remember Douglas at all.” Well, I mean, is that, yeah, yeah
41:38 WV That is a good question. And, uh, they have the best harbor
41:43 LM: Best harbor
41:43 WV: Hardware.
41:44 LM: Douglas does
41:45 WV: Douglas. Douglas did have the best hardware, downtown
41:48 LM: Oh, the harbor (?)! Oh I thought you said hardware
�41:53 WV: Best hard ware (?) . Hard ware.
41:58 LM: Oh. Ok. Well where was it
41:59 WV: It’s right where a couple galleries are, across the street from the police station. Is
that? Yeah. Right across the street from the police station.
42:10 LM: Oh right over! Yeah! Right up here. Yeah! Where the, right where are we
42:12 WV: Yeah. It was right through here. Yeah. It’s on that side of the police station. And
that was all the hard ware. They had two or three buildings in there.
42:22 LM: Oh really? It was a big hardware store.
42:23 WV: It was a big hardware. And he carried a lot of stuff, so we came over here all the
time.
42:26 LM: Oh that’s interesting.
42:27 WV: For hardware
42:28 LM: But not for anything else really. Not really?
42:30 WV: Not really for, no, not really. And my mother kept saying, she was a futurist. She
said, “You know, Saugatuck thinks they’re so hot. They are, but the sleeping giant is Douglas.”
42:44 LM: Douglas
42:46 WV: She says, “You wait and see what happens in the future of Douglas.” She said the
same thing in Grand Rapids.
42:52 LM: That’s interesting.
42:52 WV: She said, uh, “They don’t appreciate the water front. They just think it’s a sewer
running through it. And you watch. If they’re intelligent, they will beautify that river and”—
43:06 LM: When did she say that? Long time ago.
43: 07 WV: Oh gosh. Back, I don’t know. 50’s
43:08 LM: 50’s.
43:10 WV: Yeah. Now, the hotel, going back to the hotel, that was, Aunt Rea had wonderful
parties after Harry died especially. I don’t remember Uncle Harry too much at the parties. I think
the parties were afterward. Maybe with the family. And---
�43:27 LM: Maybe she was a party girl.
43:30 WV: She was, yeah, Aunt Verna, her sister, lived on the farm with Uncle Russel. Aunt
Verna was very homely she felt, and she was not pretty like Aunt Rea. Aunt Rea was a beautiful
woman, and Aunt Rhea had money, and uh, and she had servants because the hotel would hire
lots of servants, and when they needed help over at the house, they might do in the basement
some laundry. Especially laundry, and uh, uh, [laugh] just brought up Uncle Harry.
44:03 LM: I’m curious, I’m curious about the servants. Where did people come from that
worked in Saugatuck in the summers?
44:10 WV: Yeah, right here, just around, yeah
44:10 LM: They came from just around?
44:14 WV: The farms and so forth, there was a good job
44:14 LM: Farms and
44:16 WV: Yeah, my, like my uncle’s, you know, a lot of his farm when they butchered
chickens and eggs and so forth, the hotel had the restaurant going. And in our barn, years later,
they upgraded their refrigerator. They had an old ice box that was from here to here. That’s how
big it was. It was a good 10 to 15-foot-long ice box. And then it was converted to a motor
coolant, so it could keep cool. We took that, we put that in our barn for when we had blueberries.
And, uh, the, where my, where the Macintoshes came in, they had a sale for a few little blue
berries at the hotel. That was a specialty, in season.
45:05 LM: Oh, really, yeah. I was going to ask you about that, yeah.
45:08 WV: Now my father decided to grow blueberries. We had the foundry in Grand Rapids
where the Ford Museum was. He decided to get, uh, 20, 30 acres of blueberries in Saugatuck so
he could retire and have the blueberries. Well, him my brother went in together. My father was
90% of it. And, uh,
45:32 LM: Was this the older brother you were talking about before?
45:34 WV: This was my older brother Max. And they went in and planted uh, blueberries, and
we had 10 or 15 acres already plus 20 more acres to plant, and, uh, the, uh, neither one could
work in the blueberries, so I had to. And I loved it. My mother would come down during the
week. Some of the weeks she could. And we had apartments up in Grand Rapids. She had to take
care of and so forth. And, uh,
46:05 LM: So where were you living then? Were you living on the farm then, when you did
that?
46:10 WV: No, well, I personally lived on the farm. I was stuck there at about 10 years old
�46:14 LM: 10 years old, yeah
46:14 WV: Yeah. For the most part of the summer, well, my uncle was up there with. But you
know, they wouldn’t allow that in law today. They certainly would not allow a child to be alone
[laugh]
46:20 LM: So
46:25 WV: There’s no reason for a child not to be alone if they’re responsible
46:25 LM: Mmhm, yeah, so you, yeah. So you stayed there with your uncle? Or sometimes you
were alone?
46:34 WV: No, I stayed in the farm house
46:36 LM: Oh did you
46:38 WV: The Macintosh house, and times I would go up and stay with them and have dinner.
And they had bedrooms on the upper floor for the kids and they had already gone off and uh,
46:48 LM: And your other grandparents right? Did you say?
46:50 WV: They were across the way, right. The Macintosh
46:50 LM: Were they still alive then, your grandparents?
46:54 WV: Uh, no. They were, they were gone in 1964, my uncle came to my high school
graduation at Union High School in Grand Rapids. And he died about 2, 3 months later. So it
must have been pretty, because we have pictures of them in my mother’s rose garden in Grand
Rapids. Uh, they, uh, he was, he was a fascinating guy. He was shot in the leg. He couldn’t use
one of the legs, he
47:28 LM: And this was World War ?
47:28 WV: one
47:30 LM: One
47:30 WV: Yeah.
47:31 LM: That was your uncle
47:32 WV: That was. He went into the farm because that’s a way he could
47:34 LM: Right, because he could
�47:37 WV: They were all taught, they were all teachers. Um, Aunt Verna was a teacher. Uncle
Russel was a teacher. They were all teachers, but, uh, I mean, that’s what they did. They all were
teachers almost. Except the last 3 or 4 that couldn’t go to college.
47:50 LM: Where were they educated? Where did they go to school? What universities?
Around, like Kendell or Western, Michigan State?
47:55 WV: Um, most of the went to Michigan agriculture. And my grandfather had a problem,
Grandfather Valleau had a problem with that because of financing all these kids. So what he did
was he bought the farm.
48:07 LM: There were 14. That was the one that had 14.
48:09 WV: Yeah. Well they, yeah. Even generations back they did. Uh, they bought the farm
adjoining the college building. So the fence between the old college brick building and the farm
was theirs. They bought it so they could, they could, um, uh, um, it was cheaper than having
them stay in area. They could, they could take all their kids and push them into the college.
48:42 LM: You’re talking about the farm, uh, which university? You said the agriculture
48:44 WV: That was, that was, uh Michigan State
48:47 LM: Michigan State. Oh, so you had farms all over the place.
48:52 WV: Well, oh, yeah. They did, yeah. He also had religion, uh, uh, he, uh, he’s on the
history. Actually. He’s on the computer in the history, uh, about the following he had. Uh, he
made two Jesus Christ movies. This was, what?
49:10 JV: in Hollywood
49:11 WV: In Hollywood, right.
49:12 LM: He did?
49:12 WV: And he brought back a burlap sack full of money, and he brought it. How he got the
movies was he, mor, this is another whole story this
49:22 LM: This was your dad, your
49:22 WV: This was my grandfather.
49:24 LM: This was your grandfather on your father’s side
49:24 WV: This was my grandfather on my father’s side. Yeah, he was a, uh, have heard, um,
Argus, Argus Camera. Do you ever remember Argus?
�49:34 LM :No
49:34 WV: That was back in the 50’s
49:36 LM: OK.
49:36 WV: And the reason Argus really got a hold of the market like Kodak did after, Argus
invented something, and he first though took two pictures. And those were, uh 3 pictures, uh, of
the World War two, I guess. World War one, and then he had taken, he had taken a picture of my
grandfather holding a picture frame. And that was the staff of Jesus. My father, grandfather
looked like, he looked like the pictures of Jesus. And then, uh, then it was picked up, and it was
considered the top photograph, and there was a, I think there was a plain. He took a picture of
that or something. Uh, anyway there’s a museum up north on him, uh, I understand. I’ve never
gone. It’s kind of crazy, but one time it got into the Grand Rapids Press, and they talked about
my grandfather in the Grand Rapids Press. And they got it all wrong. They said he was a hippie.
And uh
50:44 LM: [laugh] he wasn’t
50:44 WV: And they said he didn’t believe in bathing. Well, he bathed all the time. He believed
in nudity. Yes. Up to a certain extent. He wore underwear. So they retracted it because it wasn’t
true at all. And they were just, well, the editor said, “Well, I was trying to make it a little bit
more flairy.” But he had a following of people when he came back from Hollywood. He didn’t
want the money. His family was very upset about that. Uh, my father wasn’t, but the rest of the
family were very upset that they weren’t getting this, any of this money. And he was giving it
away to Argus. He put all this money on Argus’ table. And he said uh, I’m not even sure if the
guy’s name was Argus, but it’s Argus camera he owned. Anyway he said, “no, no, no, no. You
earned that. The photograph I earned. And I have a reputation for that photograph.” And it ended
up that, uh, he went out into the street and started handing it to people He thought
51:53 LM: Really!
51:52 WV: So he gave all the money away
51:53 LM: He gave all the money away?
51:55 WV: And it was quite a bit it was
51:55 LM: Was that here? Or is it in Grand Rapids or here?
51:58 WV: It was probably; you know I really don’t know where it was.
52:02 LM: Did your dad spend a lot of time here, or was he mostly in Saugatuck or both
52:10 WV: uh, my father, uh---
�52:10 LM: Sorry, because there’s so many people in your family that I’m getting them
confused
52:13 WV: [laugh] uh, I, well we moved to Grand Rapids
52:15 LM: Yeah.
52:16 WV: In the move he worked for a foundry there. Haring Brass foundry
52:20 LM: Oh. Ok.
52:21 WV: And Haring was the old blacksmith, the name of the black smith foundry before
that. But it was called Haring because, well I guess too much detail. Uh, Atwood Haring were
brother-in-law’s.
52:37 LM: Yeah, so more, it was more like from what I’m understanding, it was more like a
couple. Your uncle and your aunt that lived around here
52:45 WV: Here. Yes. My uncle and aunt lived here, and they lived after my grandparents were
gone. Cause my grandmother died way before that. She was a woman’s liberty.
52:59 LM: Oh, was she?
53:01 WV: Libert—oh she was famous right
53:02 LM: Oh for suffrage. Suffrage woman.
53:05 WV: Oh, she had letters even presidential letters, all
53:09 LM: Who was this, your mother
53:10 WV: My, no, my uh
53:11 JV: Mother’s mother
53:12 WV: my grandmother
53:15 JV: your mother’s mother
53:16 WV: Macintosh. Yeah
53:17 LM: Oh, oh yeah, that’s on your mother. Yeah the mother side
53:20 WV: Yeah. She was very into that, and uh, they had lost two of their daughters in
Allegan from diphtheria and something else.
�53:28 LM: Oh,
53:29 JV: Meningitis I think
53:30 WV: And meningitis.
53:31 JV Yeah, infection
53:33 WV: And my mother was the youngest of the three. And so my mother had problems too.
She couldn’t go to school because of her irregular heart beat
53:45 phone rings in background
53:46 LM: Oh, sorry. I’ll just turn this off
53:47 sounds of jostling.
53:55 LM: yeah, um
53:57 WV: So she was home taught.
53:58 LM: So really, so your mother the, your mother side they were always around here then
54:04 WV: Yeah, and so were the Valleaus. They were here way back
54:07 LM: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Tell me more about, I’m curious. I haven’t been following this at
all, but I don’t think that matters. We’re certainly, we’re certainly talking about interesting stuff
so, it’s fine. But you, you said it was your mother that went to Oxbow, right?
54:25 WV: Yes. About 1915
54:26 LM: So how did
54:29 WV:16. She was a child prodigy
54:30 LM: Really?
54:31 WV: Yeah. That’s
54:34 LM: Do you have a lot of her paintings and
54:35 WV: Yes.
54:38 LM: Do you?
54:38 WV: yeah
�54:39 LM: were there many women at the Oxbow then or not? Was that very rare?
54:40 WV: There were, um, I’m trying to think. Some of them
54:44 LM: When was she born? When was she born? Your mom?
54:45 JV: 1905
54:45 WV: She was born in 1905
54:47 LM: 1905
54:47 WV: mmhm. So what happened was, uh, she because of Fursman, and Fursman never
complimented anyone in art. This wasn’t a complimenter. And she said I got one of the first
compliments I ever heard him give anyone for her painting. Uh, Carl Herman said “I want to
learn your method. You have a unique way” and she did
55:12 LM: And she, she never went to any institute or anything. She was self, kind of selftaught or,
55:15 WV: She was self-taught, yes. It came to here. And one of the things that probably, she
gave up her art while Carl kept going, and his wife, his wife finished up a lot of the paintings.
55:30 JV: Christine
55:31 WV: Christina, yeah. So, some of the paintings are, uh, and she wasn’t bad. She was
pretty good. But you can tell, I couldn’t, but my mother could tell, where she was going to, any
way. She, uh
55:48 LM: Did your mom stay involved in Oxbow at all even though, I mean she was having
kids. How many, how many are there are there of your family?
55:52 WV: She left the, she didn’t for a while, well Oxbow died too a little bit. It didn’t totally
die, but it went way down. It got, uh, uh, a bad reputation for
56:08 LM: When would that have been, like when
56:09 WV: 50’s, 60’s. Was it 60’s? 70’s? I don’t remember. Uh. Joan’s side, she has another
whole story. Her family owned property, uh, the, why don’t you tell it
56:26 JV: Uh, just a lot of, uh, the information that I have is that there was a tent city from, uh,
Mount Baldie to, uh,
56:40 WV: Oxbow
�56:41 JV: Oxbow. And they were involved in the tent city there.
56:45 LM: So like religious, the religious
56:46 WV: no
56:47 JV: just slabs, slabs of cotton, concrete with tents, uh, and then the cottages got
developed. And through the family, we had on my father’s side had a number of the cottages that
are still there, that are, you know. That are there. That are present. That are present. Uh, they had
ownership of tha number of the cottages there.
57:15 WV: What was
57:18 JV: Yeah, it was the Mueller. The Mueller, Mueller family. And my dad, Anderson
57:22 LM: Was that your, was that your, um, maiden name?
57:24 JV: Anderson and the Muellers.
57:27 LM: Anderson and Muellers
57:29 JV: On my father’s side
57:30 LM: On your father’s side
57:31 JV: yeah, he was Anderson. Then his mother was a Mueller. And um, so um, lot of uh,
and his mother was, uh, an artist. And she also was involved with Oxbow
57:47 LM: Oxbow.
57:49 JV: And then she also had a sister, uh, Aunt Hazel. And was a character. And she would
love to swim, and she would dive off the, as the story goes, she would dive off the masts of these
big boats that were docked along the Kalamazoo River and dive into the water.
58:12 LM: Oh really?
58:13 JV: And, and swim in the Kalamazoo River, and uh, and they, her husband, had a big
cottage, and we stayed, you know, visit them, and uh, my, so with my father’s father having the
history of Saugatuck, they bought property on Silver Lake in the, in 46, after the war. And, uh,
presently we have that, uh, property on Silver Lake. And, uh, my grandfather would take, um,
the large boats from Chicago, and they would dock in Saugatuck. And had a little motor boat.
And he would take the motor boat and take it into Silver Lake and be at the cottage. So in 46, uh,
um, he and my father and his, and his dad built the cottage by hand.
59:22 LM: Oh did they?
�59:24 JV: Um, with no electricity. So we had an outhouse, and uh, pot belly stove when I was a
little girl, and then eventually we improved as time went along.
59:34 LM: So you spent summers on Silver Lake?
59:37 JV: Summers
59:38 LM: And winters where?
59:38 JV: In Chicago.
59:40 LM: Chicago.
59:41 JV: And, uh, so my grandmother would stay at the cottage. With his, with her
grandchildren. And then my grandfather would come during the weekend to bring groceries and
supplies because she had no car. She was just right there.
1:00:01
LM: How far is Silver Lake?
1:00:02
JV: Silver Lake is right on the, by old Allegan Road.
1:00:04
LM: Oh, ok.
1:00:05
JV: Oh Allegan Road before 63rd Street. All those drives that go straight down
1:00:10
LM: Yeah, I don’t, I don’t know that
1:00:15
JV: Yeah, you can just see it, it from, from the
1:00:17
LM: So it’s close
1:00:18
JV: Yeah, it’s right here
1:00:20
LM: Did you, did you go to Saugatuck much from the from the cottage
1:00:24
JV: Oh yes. Growing up in the 60’s, 50’s and 60’s yeah. Yes. I had a great
childhood enjoying um, um, the boating, swimming, uh, I was a lifeguard, or, took lessons at
Goshard Lake and then
1:00:40
WV: She saved two children
1:00:44
LM: Did you really?
1:00:46
JV: I, I, at Goshard Lake, or where?
�1:00:49
LM: No, no, on Lake Michigan. I was a life guard, I mean I was a life guard
instructor at um, Goshard Lake, um, right now I’m trying to think of the family that was
involved. Um Crawford[mutters] Bob Crawford and I were instructors over there. And um, also
during that time we had the paddle boat. Um, the, the um
1:01:20
WV: Island Queen? Yeah. Island Queen.
1:01:21
JV: The um Island Queen um, was owned by
1:01:28
WV: Dick
1:01:28
JV: Dick Hoffman. And Dick Hoffman due to the fact that in the 70’s was quite
a, quite a college, college, college town. And he was concerned about the paddle boat. So he
would take the paddle boat and moor it in at Silver Lake. And so I got experience from going
back and forth
1:01:54
LM: Oh, going back and forth
1:01:57
JV: Uh, during that time all the kids would be able to get on the boat. He would
take the kids back to Saugatuck, but he would moor the, moor the paddleboats there
1:02:10
WV: I didn’t know that
1:02:11
JV: During the college, the college kids where in Saugatuck
1:02:15
WV: Hot town tonight!
1:02:15
LM: [laugh] right
1:02:17
WV: See those cops? Throw beer bottles at ‘em!
1:02:18
LM: Well that’s one of the questions
1:02:18
JV: The kids, and that’s during that time that the college kids were on top of the
old Crow and uh, all these, and the lampposts, remember, when I was a kids being in the back of
the car and just watching as we drove through town watching these college kids everywhere. On
the roofs.
1:02:45
LM: Were they really
1:02:46
JV: And that was
1:02:46
LM: It was summer?
1:02:47
JV: Probably probably the major weekends were the holiday weekends.
�1:02:52
WV: And the hot concerts
1:02:54
LM: And that would have been when you were a little kid?
1:02:58
JV: Little kid, little kids
1:02:59
LM: So that would have been when, in the 50’s?
1:03:00
JV: 50, 60, uh 60’s. I would say
1:03:03
LM: 60’s yeah. Ok
1:03:05
JV: Um, later, yeah. Yeah, about 50, 61, I would have been 10 years old. So, yeah
1:03:16
LM: Ok. You’re about my age. I was born in 1950. Yeah, yeah.
1:03:17
JV: So. It’s those memories, of, oh my
1:03:25
WV: They had filled up the concert that they had
1:03:30
you get into
LM: Yeah, they mentioned a couple, my question is what kind of shenanigans did
1:03:32
WV: Well, I [laugh]
1:03:35
LM: Were you a participant, an instigator, or by stander, and then what was your
impression of law enforcement in Saugatuck Douglas? Um, what special events did you attend,
like music festivals, auto or motorcycle races, or parties? Were these organized events, or
informal? And describe a scene, and you just did describe a scene about, [laugh] the kids hanging
off
1:04:02
WV: Oh, that was something
1:04:04
LM: But you remember well
1:04:05
JV: Yes.
1:04:06
LM: Was it because they were drunk or? What?
1:04:08
JV: oh just having a good time
1:04:08
LM: Just having a good time. Fun
1:04:10
WV: And they, you know, on 63rd, they had the big concert. You know there was
1:04:18
LM: Oh, I’ve heard about it. Yeah.
�1:04:19
WV: And that was, uh,
1:04:20
LM: But that was in the 60’s wasn’t it? Was that in the 60;s
1:04:21
WV: Masters.
1:04:22
LM: Masters
1:04:23
WV: L. Master. She had, they had grown bushes there, and uh, it was backed up.
Saugatuck was backed up almost half to Holland
1:04:34
LM: Was it?
1:04:34
WV: On the side of the road, on the highway.
1:04:35
LM: Really? Was that just one festival? See I left in 196-
1:04:38
WV: I think it was one festival
1:04:42
LM: I left in 1969 and went to the east coast. So, um, I used to come back and
visit my parents, but I’d never come over here. So I knew about some of these
1:04:50
WV: That was an exciting time.
1:04:52
LM: [laugh] yeah. Of course
1:04:58
WV: Yeah. The excitement. Anyway. They had no place to stay. They had no
place to park. The whole thing was filled. Police had
1:05:05
right?
LM: How many people came to that? Do you know? Was it, it was thousands,
1:05:09
WV: We could ask the Masters. They could give you, you know the kids could
give you the numbers I think, but it was thousands. It was oversold
1:05:15
happened?
LM: Was it? And that was, when was that? Late 60’s or mid 60’s when that
1:05:23
WV: I would say that was early uh, let’s see
1:05:25
LM: They probably got information out of it. I don’t know.
1:05:26
WV: Probably about 64. I would imagine. Somewhere in there.
1:05:30
JV: We’ve gone over an hour
�1:05:35
LM: We’ll keep talking a little bit, and then we’ll have to wrap up, but, yeah, I
mean God. I’m just going to look to see if any of these questions can be, um, uh. Let’s see.
Favorite memories. Is, oh. Oh yeah. Wrap it up. Ok. [laugh] That’s Nathan. It’s his office. Oh
poop. There’s so much to talk about. But I guess, I guess we’ll have to, we’ll have to wrap it up.
And you know, maybe they’ll ask you to come in again, because there’s so much, and you’ve got
a lot of stories too
1:06:13
WV: Yeah. Things I haven’t heard
1:06:14
LM: Oh really? [laugh]. Well I want to thank you for your time and, I mean,
you’ve got me more invested in Saugatuck history, but I mean, you’ve got like
1:06:24
WV: The foundry alone was
1:06:26
LM: I know! The foundry alone was
1:06:30
JV: The foundry alone was Warren’s in 71, and he was licensed for Greenfeld
village and Henry Ford Museum
1:06:34
about it?
LM: Oh really? Do they have information on this? Have you talked to Nathan
1:06:41
WV: No
1:06:41
JV: This was, this was our introduction to talk to someone to talk about the hotel
to get to know more information, but Warren’s foundry on 63rd street, where they built the
1:06:58
LM: Is a story in itself
1:06:58
JV: Is a story
1:07:00
WV: The Gerry Ford the whole thing
1:07:02
LM: Yeah, ok. Well I’ll stop it, and then we can
recording stops 1:07:05
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1910s-2010s
Source
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Various
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Subject
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Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Michigan, Lake
Allegan County (Mich.)
Beaches
Sand dunes
Outdoor recreation
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Contributor
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Saugatuck-Douglas History Center
Identifier
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Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
Format
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image/jpeg
application/pdf
Type
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Image
Text
Language
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English
Date
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2018
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
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Identifier
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DC-07_SD-ValleauW-20180606
Creator
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Valleau, Warren
Date
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2018-06-06
Title
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Warren Valleau (Audio interview and transcript), 2018
Description
An account of the resource
Warren Valleau was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and visited his grandfather's farm in Saugatuck as a child. He recalls his father's work transporting produce, and in foundries in Grand Rapids, as well as his grandparents' associations with artists along the lakeshore.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Morgan, Lissa (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Allegan County (Mich.)
Oral history
Audio recordings
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Documenting the Histories of Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas, Kutsche Office of Local History
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Relation
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Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Sound
Text
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f04d59e1b62f207cb46df6111b3fa439.mp3
8185d40d0c4fc8bd99afb8c0af7e8556
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/33e8decc2c136aa5f2ad0605f703da01.pdf
3ad76f039557c82997f51a7c21f04af6
PDF Text
Text
Howard Shultz- Interview by Eric Gollaneck and Megan Stevens
October 4, 2018
0:03
EG: Hello. This is Eric Gollaneck
0:05
MS: And Megan Stevens
0:06
EG: And I’m here today with
0:08
HS: Howard Schultz
0:10 EG: At the old school house in Douglas, Michigan, on October the 4th 2018. This oral
history is being collected as part of the Stories of Summer project, which is supported in part by
a grant from the National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Program. Thank
you for taking the time to talk with us today. We’re interested in a little more about your
family’s history and your experiences of summer in the Saugatuck/Douglas areas. Can you tell
us your name again and spell it for us?
0:37
HS: Howard Schultz. H-O-W-A-R-D. initial E. Schultz. S-C-H-U-L-T-Z
0:45 EG: Thanks so much, Howard. Uh, so let’s start out, just give us a little bit of background.
I know you’ve been interviewed before in connection with the fuel school house project several
years ago. Uh, tell us a little about where you grew up. Some of your background.
1:00 HS: I was born in the Kirby house in Douglas in 1935 on January 16th. I spent the first five
years of my life in downtown Douglas. I lived in what had been the old Fenville, the old phone
exchange building next to the Norton Drug Store. [clears throat]
1:22
EG: All right
1:23
HS: None of which exists anymore
1:24
EG: [Laugh]
1:25
HS: Uh, the first five years of my life were on the streets of Douglas.
1:28
EG: [laugh]
1:28
MS: [laugh]
1:29 HS: There was a hotel on the corner. There were people coming and going. There was,
oh, a party type store in the middle.
1:38
EG: Yeah
�1:39 HS: There was a restaurant across the street, a hotel, as I said, right on the corner, and a
young girl about my age, so I could go beat on her once in a while.
1:47
EG: [laugh]
1:48 HS: so, uh, it was pretty eventful for the first five years, but I don’t remember it at all, of
course.
1:53
EG: Right
1:55 HS: We moved to a house up on the hill in Douglas, which was on what we called River
Road in those days. Going east towards Fennville and Allegan. [clear throat] And that was in
1940. And my first recollection of that move was I could just barely reach the door handle.
2:12
EG: [laugh]
2:13
HS: Which is, so I was upright at least.
2:15
MS: Yeah. [laugh]
2:15
EG: Right. Right. So in early childhood. Did you live in that house for a number of years?
2:19 HS: We lived in that years, I stayed in that house, grew out of that house till 1953 when I
graduated from high school and went away to college in Indiana.
2:30
EG: All right. Where-where did you go to coll— what school specifically?
2:33
HS: Indiana Technical College
2:34
EG: Oh, ok.
2:35
HS: In Fort Wayne, Indiana.
2:37
EG: What’d you study there?
2:38
HS: I studied mechanical engineering.
2:40
EG: All right. Very interesting.
2:43
HS: Yeah. Do you want anything in between?
2:44
EG: [laugh]
�2:44
MS: [laugh]
2:45 EG: We’ll, we’ll circle back on a couple of things here. So, but just to lay it out I know
you’ve got, uh, deep family connections in the area here, but tell us a little bit about your, your
family, about your parents, their names, and siblings you had.
3:01 HS: [clear throat], well my father was the, at the time when I was born worked for the,
what was the state highway department.
3:09
EG: Mm
3:09 HS: At the time. And their garage is right across the street from the Kirby House, which
is the ex-garage and, and a bunch of other things. He worked there, and, in 1940, of course,
World War Two was just going into swing. And a lot of the boys were being pulled away, and
my dad ended up working for the village of Douglas. He was village clerk already, from 1932 on,
he’d been village clerk, and he ended up being the street commissioner, for, for the town, and
the treasurer at one time. And he was on the school board.
3:48
EG: [laugh]
3:48 HS: several years. And he was, uh, uh, with the Masonic temple. He was past master
several times. So he was a pretty major player in town for a while.
3:58
EG: Right
3:58
MS: Yeah
3:58 HS: There weren’t many people in those days. The town had about five hundred people,
and we probably had close to three hundred going off someplace.
4:08
EG: Right
4:08 HS: You know, that could, able bodied people. A lot of people went away to the war,
either in the war directly
4:14
EG: Mhm
4:14
HS: Or the war effort.
4:15
EG: Absolutely. What, how old was he in 1940? What year was he born?
4:20
HS: He was born in, I think 1905.
4:24
EG: Ok. Yeah.
�4:26 HS: and, uh, [clear throat] My mother is a, she was a Chase family. And Chase family was
north of, north of town. South of town, on what is now Blue Star Highway. It was US 31 aft-afterwards. But the road, there’s an old map in our system that called it the Chase Road.
4:44
EG: Ok.
4:44 HS: Because the highway, actually, the main highway was out on the lakeshore. And
they came through and went across the highway went across Saugatuck to the car ferry.
4:55
EG: Mhm
4:56 HS: That was the only place they could cross to Kalamazoo down here [clear throat] until
they built the Douglas bridge, which goes way back into the 1800’s
5:03
EG: hmm
5:04
HS: But my mother went to, um, Saugatuck High School as I did. She graduated in 1922.
5:10
EG: hm
5:11 HS: Um, curiously the, the school burned. She was in class at Saugatuck High School, and
it also burned when I went to Saugatuck High School
5:19
EG: [laugh]
5:19
MS: [laugh]
5:23 EG: You haven’t, you don’t have any grandkids that are in Saugatuck, that are in
Saugatuck High School do you? That we should, uh
5:25
MS: [laugh]
5:28 HS: I have no idea, uh, what caused either of them. Um, I don’t know the details of my
mother’s except that she said that it burned. I don’t know anything about that. But our’s, it
burned everything but the, um, gymnasium.
5:42
MS: Oh wow.
5:42 HS: We, we were able to keep going. We portioned the gymnasium in half, we could still
have half room classes with the portable walls. We still had a few classrooms there. And some
of the classes were in one of the churches. I can’t, I don’t have any detail about any of that, but
it was the younger classes they went to high school. High school was at the, um, still at the
building, at the location. On top of the hill. That’s the high school that was on top of the hill.
�6:09
EG: hm.
6:09
HS: Right now there’s nothing but condos up there.
6:12
EG: Hm
6:14 HS: And that’s where we graduated. We were back into a new building my senior year,
uh, that was my sophomore year I think when it burned. Took them a couple of years they, they
were talking about building a high school, not building a high school. And we even had a parade
when the council was voting on whether to bond to build a new school.
6:38
EG: mm hm
6:38
MS: mm hm
6:38 HS: Or not, and we had a parade and said “Your children do not want to wear wooden
shoes.
6:43
EG: [laugh]
6:43
HS: Because the plan was either to amend our system with Holland’s or Fennville
6:50
MS: Oh
6:50 HS: And a quite a few of our kids already, because freedom of choice, school of choice,
freedom
6:56
EG: mm. yeah
6:56
MS: mm hm
6:57 HS: Had just kicked in, and some of our kids right out of town, Douglas went to
Fennville.
7:02
EG: right
7:02
HS: Which Fennville didn’t have a good reputation in those days
7:05
EG: hm
7:06 HS: And Saugatuck was, we were down to, well my class, in my time frame it was like
fifty students for the whole school
�7:12
MS: Oh wow
7:13
HS: [clear throat]
7:14
EG: yeah.
7:14 HS: And there wasn’t that big build up that you have now in Saugatuck Township
around, between here and Holland.
7:20
EG: mm
7:22 HS: And that’s brought a lot of the kids in from rather than go to Holland, they came to
Saugatuck. And so, that’s why that got divided up. Uh, I don’t know how long that school lasted,
uh, but I was surprised to come home, we were overseas for a while with my job right after I
got out of college
7:38
EG: mm
7:38 HS: And I came back home, and they had torn that school down and turned it into a
condo and rebuilt the one that they have now up on the hill which you probably know where
that is.
7:47
EG: mm hm. Yeah. We’ve been there with the Contemporary Stories
7:50
MS: Yeah
7:51
EG: of Saugatuck Project
7:52
HS: that [clear throat] was a major, major issue for this city
7:57
EG: yeah
7:58
HS: to build that major, major school
8:00
MS: Yeah
8:00 HS: In the face of the type of the population we must have had in those days. No major
bondage in other words
8:06
EG: Right.
8:08
HS: And anyway, they ended up with a nice point up there.
8:09
EG: Tell, tell us more about that parade. Where you involved
�8:11
HS: Oh yeah, sure.
8:11
EG: in that at all?
8:14
HS: We made signs and carried them. Marched up and down the street.
8:16
MS: [laugh]
8:16 HS: Talking about we don’t wear, and, and, the cheerleaders’ head cheerleader, I
assumed it was head cheerleader
8:25
EG: [laugh]
8:26
HS: She and, and I probably were the leaders because I was in basketball at that time.
8:30
EG: Ok
8:33 HS: And uh, put that parade together and marched up and down the street the night the
council was meeting
8:36
EG: Yeah
8:37
HS: Her dad was president of the council
8:39
EG: Oh, wow.
8:39
HS: He was another of the major fathers who were around.
8:42
EG: yeah
8:42
MS: Mm hm
8:42
HS: So the vote went, “We’re gonna build”
8:45
EG: What, do you remember what year that was?
8:49
HS: Probably about 1950
8:50
EG: mm. Ok.
8:52
HS: 51, at at the most. I don’t know for sure.
8:54
EG: Yeah. Community schools. That’s still a, still a powerful issue, right?
�9:00
HS: Yeah.
9:00
EG: Lots of strong feelings about it.
9:02 HS: So that was, uh, and that was a nice thing to happen. They built a very nice school
out of it. We were in the process, my senior class, our shop class was building, was building a
new shop.
9:15
Unkown: You taping?
9:16
MS: Yeah sorry
9:18
EG: Mmhm yeah
9:20
HS: My shop class was building new racks and things for the shop
9:24
EG: Ok
9:25
HS: Which we hadn’t had a shop before
9:26
EG: Ok. Yeah. So this was new.
9:28
HS: Yeah. It was a new thing.
9:30
EG: Was it woodworking, wood working shop? Metal working?
9:32
HS: Uh, mostly wood working
9:34
EG: Yeah.
9:34
HS: I don’t recall much metal working stuff. Might of had couple of pieces
9:39
EG: yeah.
9:39
HS: But no welders or stuff like that
9:41
EG: Some brakes or something like that. Sure.
9:41
HS: Mm
9:45
EG: Yeah
9:45
HS: It was nice, it was going to be a nice school for a couple of students
�9:49
EG: right
9:49
HS: But I didn’t get to see it much, yeah.
9:50
EG: You were put to work.
9:52
HS: I was working elsewhere.
9:53 EG: Right. Absolutely. Yeah. So we’ve had, we’ve interviewed you about the Douglas
school, the Union school building we’re sitting in right now. Uh, anything in particular you want
to share about that? Uh, about your, your youth in Douglas?
10:09 HS: Well
10:09 EG: Or kind of pre-high school years or middle school
10:11 HS: At various, at various times I’ve helped out, Jim Smeeken and uh, uh, (pause) uh,
what’s his name with the, with the photos? Haven’t seen him in quite a while now. Jack!
10:29 EG: Oh, Jack Sheridan
10:30 HS: Jack Sheridan
10:31 EG: Yeah
10:31 HS: Um, I try to, try to help them out with photographs, they were hanging
photographs. And I have quite a few and I turned them in down at the basement.
10: 39 EG: Right
10:40 HS: Storage for various things
10:42 EG: yeah
10:43 HS: And uh, but I’ve said, and I just said it to Nathan, not too long ago, I can identify a lot
of the names on those picutres for class attendees
10:51 EG: m hm. Yeah.
10:53 HS: for various ones we have for graduation classes, and, or other sub graduating,
several classes Not graduates, but just class
10:58 EG: right
�11:00 HS: Photos
11:00 EG: Yeah
11:01 HS: which was a common thing. We used to we used take because there weren’t that
many people
11:04 EG: Yeah
11:04 HS: Class photos every, every year for a while. Some have, maybe not been taken or
some haven’t surfaced, but everyone that I’ve ever seen I made sure they’ve got copies here.
11:15 EG: Right. Yeah. No. That- that’s
11:17 HS: My sister, my sister also and she had several classes that, you know, where beyond
me, behind me. She was five years younger than I.
11:24 EG: Yeah. tell me a little bit about your siblings. We’ve asked about that, and we, come
back to that for a second. Tell me about your siblings
11:31 HS: Well, I had one daughter. Sister, I mean. One sister, and my folks had twins.
11:37 EG: Hm.
11:37 HS: And the one daughter did not survive. So I had one sister that survived.
11:42 EG: And what was your sister, what’s your sister’s name?
11:45 HS: Her name was Judy. Judith Anne. And she married a Lovejoy, finally
11:50 EG: [laugh]
11:51 HS: After, uh, a period of time in school and, uh, working in Saugatuck. So, she was kind
of at home, helping my dad with book work a lot. She took bookkeeping at MSU, and so she
stayed there until her, um, husband-to-be was in the Navy.
12:08 EG: Mm hm
12:10 HS: Until he had the chance to get out, and you know, got reassigned to locations
someplace.
12:15 EG: Right. Right. They moved away. Did they come back?
�12:17 HS: They moved. They were in Jacksonville, Florida, for a while.
12:21 EG: Hm.
12:22 HS: And he’d been in Green, Greenland for years. Frank Lovejoy
12:26 EG: Hmm
12:27 HS: He’d been there for a few years. And, uh, his career was photographic for the, for
the military.
12:31 EG: Ok.
12:32 HS: So, uh, he had a good chance at a career, but he gave up on that. He came back to
Saugatuck and worked here. There were factories here. There was Crampton’s out here, which
is, uh, whatever the factory is now that’s about three, three generations beyond the last
12:49 EG: mhm
12:50 HS: at that, at that property, during the war there was a lot of factory jobs. Jobs going
everywhere that people could work at.
12:57 EG: Right
12:59 HS: So anyway we, uh, the town was, I feel very uh, fortunate, uh, at one time we had a
memory board, uh, military board at the corner of the park down there. Berry field?
13:14 EG: Yes
13:15 HS: And it had a list of people and no one got, of the town people got directly killed in
the war.
13:24 EG: hmm
13:24 HS: They all came back
13:26 EG: Ok
13:26 HS: They all came back. There were a couple of losses later
13:31 EG: Yeah
13:31 HS: Neighbor, neighboring areas
�13:35 EG: mm hm
13:35 HS: That I knew about personally. Where a couple of guys got, got killed but,
13:39 EG: Yeah
13:40 HS: One was on a, he come back and was flying a, uh, crop dusting planes,
13:47 EG: hmm
13:47 HS: Because in the military, they’d learned to fly some of them
13:50 EG: Right. Yeah.
13:51 HS: And uh, that was one of the interesting stories. I started to talk to Mary last night
13:57 EG: About the airport?
13:57 HS: About the airport
13:58 EG: Yeah
13:59 HS: Because, um, the Crane family who are still in Fennville with the apple orchards
14:03 EG: Right
14:03 HS: Um, among other things, are, um. The Cranes didn’t have hillsides or room to build
an airport. One of their sons had wanted to fly. So the Cranes built an airport right down here,
which is now on Blue Star right at the exit, at the the interchange, the expressway
14:22 EG: Oh really?
14:24 HS: Yes. That was an airport down there.
14:25 EG: All right.
14:26 HS: And uh, he built a T-shaped airport. Across- cross
14:30 EG: mm hm
14:30 HS: Uh, east west, and north south. And their planes were coming right over our house
on Douglas
14:38 EG: [laugh]
�14:38 HS: On Water Street
14:39 EG: Yeah.
14:39 HS: As a youngster, so I had, that was right after the war, so that would have been like
49, 50
14:43 EG: mm hm
14:44 HS: Right, my years of being interested in planes
14:46 EG: Yeah
14:47 HS: So we got into model airplanes. There was a big model airplane contingent around
here at that time too
14:50 EG: [laugh]
14:52 HS: And, uh, I met a guy that got me involved and interested in going to the school in
Indiana, this technical college
14:59 EG: Ok.
15:00 HS: So it was aero and mechanical, and a lot of the school was for returning vets
15:04 EG: Sure
15:05 HS: Who could go to school on the GI
15:07 EG: Right
15:07 HS: You know, there were kids, there were people, I just met a guy the other day that
actually got pulled out of school because he was in the military. He’d been in the military,
whatever they call it. ROTC or-15:18 EG: mm hm
15:18 HS: something. And had been training in pilot, pilot, as a pilot. He was already trained
pilot
15:22 EG: Yeah
15:23 HS: In high school. He got pulled out before he graduated from high school
�15:27 EG: Wow
15:28 HS: Ended up flying B-51’s in the, the, uh Korea when Korean War started
15:33 EG: Oh wow
15:34 HS: In the 50’s
15:36 EG: Yeah
15:36 HS: I just missed, I just missed that because I went to engineering school
15:39 EG: Right
15:39 HS: On, on a, uh, deferment, deferment. Because I was going for engineering school
15:47 EG: mm hm
15:47 HS: And they wanted engineers, so
15:49 EG: Right. You’re kind of between, between those two, those two windows of time in
some ways. Between World War Two, and you’re much too young for World War Two, but
16:00 HS: We were still on the draft for the Korean War
16:03 EG: Right. Yeah.
16:05 HS:.A lot of the late guys did, and some of them already went. A lot of my, a lot of my
friends that didn’t go to school
16:11 EG: Right
16:11 HS: Went right into the, within in a year were in the, in the war
16:14 EG: Right. Yeah. Talk a little about that, that time period. It sounds like you had had, you
had memories of the second world war
16:25 HS: um
16:26 EG: or, or not much?
16:26 HS: Not much. We couldn’t do that, like it is now, at all. The only way we could find out
was, everything was censored.
�16:35 EG: Mmhm
16:35 HS: Uh, we have a bunch of letters in our, from our relatives.
16:39 EG: mm hm
16:40 HS: And, uh, they can’t say anything. They’re all military
16:43 EG: mm hm
16:44 HS: Foreign military setup
16:45 EG: Right. That- that V Mail.
16:47 HS: Yeah.
16:48 EG: That was vimeographed
16:49 HS: vimeographed and
16:50 EG: and edited
16:50 HS: and reduced and redacted and all that. Yeah that. We got some of that. So they
couldn’t say anything by mail. And the only thing that could come out was that every Saturday
we could go to Fennville. Fennville had a little movie theater.
17:01 EG: mm hm
17:02 HS: And we could go over there, and you could get that, what five minute news reel?
17:06 EG: mm hm
17:06 HS: Or something. Propaganda type news reel
17:08 EG: Right.
17:08 HS: With the boys are here and the boys are there
17:10 EG: mmhm
17:10 HS: and we’re winning this. We’re winning that.
17:12 EG: Yeah
�17:12 HS: And we need more money.
17:13 EG: Yeah.
17:13 HS: Everything was about money. You know? We were--I still have some ration, uh,
stickers for, for gasoline
17:20 EG: Right
17:22 HS: uh, my dad was getting ration stickers for my daughter, my sis, his daughter, my
sister [laugh]
17:29 EG: Yeah.
17:29 HS: When she was twelve years
17:31 EG: Right
17:32 HS: so I mean they, they were because he wanted to go deer hunting and that, he had
to use up a lot of his stickers to go up north to go deer hunting, and
17:38 EG: For sure. Yeah
17:39 HS: He never, he never missed a year of deer hunting.
17:41EG: Ok. Had to plan ahead for that one
17:42 HS: Yeah
17:43 EG: For sure
17:45 HS: So, yeah, that was about the only thing we could find out
17: 47 EG: Yeah
17:48 HS: My uncle [clear throat] one of my uncles had been in World War One that was
regular family. He was the um, postmaster in downtown Douglas. His name was Jean Campbell
17:58 EG: Ok.
17:59 HS: And, uh, he used to come over to be at my folks’ house. My folks never anywhere.
And he’d come over to the house, and he’d want to listen to the Walter Winchell Show. Radio
show, at night.
�18:08 EG: mm hm
18:09 HS: And he was embedded and talking
18:12 EG: mm hm
18:13 HS: Street’s talk, so
18:14 EG: yeah
18:15 HS: That’s what we’d find out from what was going on
18:17 EG: yeah
18:18 HS: But it was a big, big pressure on everybody’s just to live, you know? What was going
on
18:24 EG: Right
18:25 HS: My aunt went to Detroit and ended up in the war effort in a factory
18:28 EG: mhm
18:29 HS: Don’t know what, never got any details
18:31 EG: [laugh]
18:31 HS: I always thought she was putting B-29’s together
18:33 EG: [laugh]
18:34 HS: Or B-24’s together
18:35 EG: Right
18:36 HS: Um
18:37 EG: How old were you in 1945?
18:39 HS: 10
18:40 EG: Ok. Do you have memories of the end of the war?
18:43 HS: Yes. Everybody was very happy
�18:44 EG: [laugh]
18:45 HS: Very, very happy. I don’t remember the big scare about the Japanese much until
afterwards, but the Japanse were in the Aleutians
18:54 EG: mmhm
18:55 HS: And they were finding floating bombs, you know from
18:57 EG: mmhm
18:59 HS: from the
18:58 EG: yeah
18:58 HS: What do you call it, the currents?
18:59 EG: The balloon bombs
19:00 HS: balloon bombs?
19:01 EG: That they dropped yeah.
19:02 HS: yeah. Uh. Never heard much about that till afterwards.
19:06 EG: Yeah
19:07 HS: I’ve been very interested in history. War history,
19:08 EG: yeah
19:08 HS: ever since. I watch everything I can watch on TV about it
19:12 EG: hm
19:12 HS: Cause there’s this new footage coming out of Japan and Germany yet
19:15 EG: hm
19:15 HS: Both of them. So, a lot of, lot of stuff’s still coming out. Keep track of
19:20 EG: Do you remember anything on, uh, you know, the uh, VE-- VJ Day or you know
�19:26 HS: oh yeah
19:26 EG: the signing of, you know the end of the war
19:29 HS: Oh yeah
19:29 EG: Here in Douglas or in Saugatuck?
19:31 HS: Oh I don’t remember any, uh, formal celebrations, but there were a lot of gunshots
in the neighborhood
19:37 EG: [laugh] Lots of people letting off
19:40 HS: Letting off steam
19:41 EG: Letting off steam, and uh,
19:43 HS: little pressure
19:43 EG: the end of the
19:44 HS: a box of shells was precious in those days too.
19:47 EG: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Very interesting. So, uh, let’s talk a little bit more about, uh, the
airport. Just to kind of clarify that some. So you mentioned the Crane brothers
19:58 HS: They built and
19:59 EG: and family
19:59 HS: and I spent some time, I worked at the Fennville Rod and Gun Club Pancake
Breakfasts
20:04 EG: mmhm
20:04 HS: And I take money there and Mr. Crane, the last still surviving of the original family,
used to come in and wait for his family. They’d get together for breakfast. He, several times,
was ahead, and he’d sit down with me and talk. And I consider those my most precious times
20:20 EG: [laugh]
20:20 HS: Cause I could talk to him about the airport.
20:24 EG: yeah.
�20:24 HS: Because I was flying model airplanes. By that time, I was with a gang of guys, you
know, we used to start with little ones and pretty soon bigger and bigger.
20:30 EG: yeah
20:31 HS: And one of the fellows was a son of the Wimple Grocery store that was mentioned
last night
20:37 EG: Yeah
20:38 HS: But from Saugatuck and he was older, he was quite a bit older than I, but he was
well entrenched in model airplanes
20:45 EG: [laugh]
20:45 HS: so he kind of led the pack
20:47 EG: yeah
20:47 HS: and that’s how I met another fellow through him that I ended up in school with
20:50 EG: yeah
20:51 HS: But, uh, Bud had gotten married and went to Western. Western had a air, air
course, uh system then. So I was kind of working with these guys, thinking that’s the way I’m
going to go
21:01 EG: right
21:02 HS: and so I was talking to Mr. Crane, and he said that was really a tight little airport. He
said, but we had now choice because we couldn’t put one over on our property
21:11 EG: hm
21:11 HS: He says the only thing that ever happened bad was one of the guys took out the
pipe, the lines one time, took out the electric lines
21:17 EG: Oh
21:17 HS: Because they were set up east/west. They didn’t get a lot of property east west.
21:23 EG: Ok
�21:23 HS: But east end, ended in woods.
21:27 EG: yeah
21:27 HS: So they had to start from there and go west and come up over the, the, the building
is still there. The little light house, uh, restaurant property is there.
21:36 EG: Oh. Ok. Sure.
21:38 HS: And he said they had to come up over that well the wires where, you know well the
wires are
21:43 EG: right
21:44 HS: They’re still there.
21:45 EG: Yeah
21:45 HS: He said they’d take them out one time. One of their planes
21:47 EG: Wow
21:48 HS: All they had was those, um, Piper Clubs and uh,
21:49 EG: mmhm
21:50 HS: Maybe a Taylor Craft or two. Little, light weight
21:52 EG: Right
21:52 HS: Little planes
21:53 EG: single engine
21:55 HS: And, uh, they’d come, if there was wind out of the Northwest, which it was a lot,
21:58 EG: mm hm
21:58 HS: they could come straight north out of the runway. Came right out over East Douglas.
22:05 EG: mm hm
22:05 HS: Which was 294 Water Street was our house [laugh]
�22:09 EG: [laugh]
22:09 HS: They’d come over real low, so I’d always be watching them too. Uh, as they’d be
going over and
22:17 EG: yeah
22:17 HS: I had model planes of them, and I flew uh, radio control, not radio control but string
control hand control
22:26 EG: Ok
22:26 HS: I never got quite to radio control. I was building one, then I decided I’ve got save my
money for college, so
22:31 EG: right. Yeah. It’s probably a relatively expensive hobby.
22:35 HS: Well I was in those days yeah.
22:36 EG: Not the same technology
22:39 HS: Well It still is expensive
22:40 EG: yeah
22:40 HS: It hasn’t got
22:41 EG: [laugh]
22:41 HS: That hasn’t gone away. It’s gotten a lot more complicated, though.
22:44 EG: right for sure.
22:45 HS: So anyway, uh, that was fun, Mr, uh, Mr. Crane telling me about that. But other than
that, they didn’t have much trouble at, later. Somewhere along the line, they sold off a corner
of it. The back corner of that airport, or, leased it off
23:05 EG: mhm
23:06 HS: To, um a track, ra- race track. So
23:08 EG: right
23:09 HS: That’s where Douglas Race Track became
�23:10 EG: Right
23:11 HS: I think it was about a quarter mile, maybe three eighths mile dirt
23:14 EG: hm
23:14 HS: track, a small little dirt track.
23:16EG: Yeah.
23:16 HS: The confines of the corner
23:17 EG: Within the airport itself. Yeah.
23:20 HS: And, uh, I ended up, uh, when I was in college, (pause), uh, first year I had a car. I
had an old car that needed some work. And I ended up, my dad, my dad, I got to work for my
dad on the county, he also was county road supervisor
23:37 EG: mm hm
23:37 HS: after he left Douglas part of it, but the county high way split.
23:41 EG: mm hm
23:43 HS: In 1960 about, no it was earlier than that.
23:46 EG: mm hm
23:46 HS: They split up (pause) and they, the county, uh, garage was up behind our house. And
the state highway garage was still down on Blue Star here, which was still 31. But anyway, I
used to fly model airplanes that were the same as what
24:05 EG: [laugh]
24:05 HS: what they were flying, and I, I lost one. We’d go down on 31, and my buddy, this
was uh, Bud Wimple, he had had electric, uh, power, electric control planes
24:17 EG: Hm
24:18 HS: Remote control. And he lost one, one time, and the big trucks that were going down
31. I remember the plane going “mrow” and he lost control of it. It could only go about a
quarter of a mile, you know.
�24:28 EG: mhm
24:28 HS: Blew, the thing was doing loop de loos
24:31 EG: Yeah
24:31 HS: and right between the big trucks going down the highway.
24:35 EG: [laugh] Did, did he get it back, or
24:38 HS: Yeah, I got it back, he was a little crippled, and,
24:40 EG: Ok
24:40 HS: uh, I don’t know if he got that in the war or but he was,
24:45 EG: yeah
24:45 HS: one leg was bad. I was able to run it down for him. It was way out in the dunes over
24:49 EG: oh wow
24:49 HS: towards the lake.
24:50 EG: Ok
24:50 HS: And I lost a plane my own self out that way one time
24:53 EG: yeah.
24:53 HS: Cause I was flying a free flight, and I just put so much gas in, it was the only way you
can turn ‘em off.
24:59 EG: right
25: HS: And uh, it was, it went way the heck out. I was eating dinner one night, a couple months
later. My dad gets a phone call. And he says “No, that’s not me. That’s my son.” Some guy had
found it on his farm way out back there some place.
25:12 EG: Ok
25:13 HS: [laugh]
25:15 EG: [laugh]
�25:15 HS: so we had some fun with model airplanes, but we, with model airplanes we did a
lot, uh, we did speed racing
25:21 EG: mhm
25:22 HS: We did ca-, uh, what’d we call them? Fights, fights, uh, dog fights
25:26 EG: ah
25:27 HS: With model airplanes, all on the Douglas ball diamond there.
25:31 EG: yeah
25:31 HS: And, uh, on a Sunday afternoon, we could get cars parked all the way around that
ball diamond. Just like a softball game.
25:39 EG: Wow. Watching that
25:40 HS: Watching
25:41 EG: Watching the airshow
25:41 HS: those model planes
25:42 EG: air show. Yeah.
25:43 HS: those guys with the planes
25:44 EG: no kidding
25:45 HS: It was very popular in those days.
25:47 EG: Were those planes you built, were they built out of kits or were they things you
made up out of parts yourself?
25:51 HS: Mine was pretty much a kit
25:53 EG: mm hm
25:54 HS: You could get planes in several magazines
25:56 EG: mm hm
�25:56 HS: and make them yourself out of those planes
25:59 EG: Right
25:59 HS: like the ones that I made for racing
26:02 EG: mm hm
26:02 HS: we started the speed, speed kit. You just got a kit in the mail easy.
26:05 EG: mm hm
26:06 HS: Or you got a picture of a kit in a magazine. You’d put your own idea in it and you’d
do it your own way if you had the right tools. You’d cut them out of balsa wood and
26:13 EG: right
26:14 HS: glued them together
26:16 EG: yeah
26:16 HS: Yeah, I had a near record, record speedster at one time.
26:21 EG: [laugh]
26:21 HS: I never got it proved, but Grand Rapids used to have, in those days it was called
AMA, American Modelist Association, Meets in Grand Rapids. It was one of the stops.
26:32 EG: hm. Yeah.
26:32 HS: but I never went up to Grand Rapids and tried to run. You know, that’s where the
big boy’s meet
26:38 EG: Right. [laugh]
26:39 HS: I was just a little boy.
26:40 EG: right
26:42 HS: but I made one, one in one of their classes
26:44 EG: yeah
26:45 HS: I just didn’t have an engine suitable to
�26:47 EG: mm hm
26:47 HS: But I still got speed real close to what they were getting.
26:49 EG: right. Oh, that’s fascinating. Yeah, we hadn’t heard much about that. So that’s a
really interesting story
26:49 HS: There was a hard ware store. Came into Douglas, downtown Douglas. Called Tate’s.
Uh, in those days there was an outfit called Tate and Burr’s. The guys were partners. I don’t
know if they were married to the same wives, I mean different wives. They were friends.
27:11 EG: Yeah [laugh]
27:12 HS: They’d come into town and each time, Burn’s took over Vansickle’s store, you heard
it
27:18 EG: yeah
27:19 HS: Or grocery store. You heard of that?
27:20 EG: Yeah. Yeah.
27:22 HS: Ok. Well the grocery store was had been Burn, had been ,uh, been uh, Vansickle’s,
and uh, they sold out and as he got older. Burns took that over and Tate started a hardware
store in a place, now there’s another gift shop some kind down there.
27:41 EG: mm hm
27:41 HS: And the building’s still there. Right in the main stretch, but on the west end of the
main stretch on the north side of the road. And he wanted to be a good model airplane, uh,
dispensary for
27:53 EG: hm
27:53 HS: for all kids coming over. That was one of the things. He was a good hardware store
owner, in the timeframe that it needed because everybody was building rebuilding old houses
and
28:02 EG: mm hm
28:03 HS: A lot of stuff going on. I was surprised to see it didn’t carry on, but
28:08 EG: mm hm
�28:08 HS: it couldn’t. But anyway, he uh, he commissioned me to make some display models
for him. So I had old display models hanging up in the, uh, store at the time. And I flew one, one
time and, it wasn’t a good flyer, but it looked pretty and that’s what he wanted.
28:23 EG: [laugh]
28:24 HS: So that was always kind of fun
28:26 EG: yeah.
28:27 HS: again, those are all my years probably up to sixteen, maybe seventeen.
28:30 EG: mm hm. Yeah. Moved on to other things. Did you play basketball
28:36 HS: I played basketball at Saugatuck
28:36 EG: at Saugatuck high school?
28:38 HS: That’s one of the main reasons I went over there is because they had the junior
team at one point
28:42 EG: mm
28:43 HS: And the year I went they didn’t have a junior team. But I still, I didn’t know how to
play basketball. I just knew about it.
28:49 EG: ok.
28:50 HS: But, uh, I liked to play it. Worked hard at it. Practiced for a whole year, and then
finally. I couldn’t play the first year. I uh, had a heart condition that wouldn’t allow me to play
according to their doctor assessment.
29:02 EG: Ok. Hm.
29:03 HS: After they, they decided later, you know, I played scrimmages and worked out hard
myself the whole year.
29:09 EG: yeah
29:10 HS: And I was still there.
29:11 EG: yeah
�29:12 HS: So they decided to let me play
29:14 EG: [laugh]
29:14 HS: And, uh, so I was in the last three years, 10, 11, and 12th grade
29:17 EG: yeah
29:18 HS: And, uh, got MVP the final, the senior year.
29:22 EG: [laugh]
29:24 HS: But, uh, that was, that was fun. We didn’t make it to the, we didn’t make it past the
district, so.
29:30 EG: Right. (pause) Say a little bit about games and, uh, you know, kind of what that,
what that was like, what, what home games were like at the high school
29:41 HS: Oh
29:42 EG: and who came out and
29:43 HS: Well, high, high school was not much to be honest. It had a baseball team for years.
Right. I got two letter, you know sweater. I played baseball too. But the big thing for me was
Saugatuck was Douglas Athletic club. Which was this building over here at the time.
30:00 EG: Right.
30:02 HS: And those guys went to the war. Most of them young guys.
30:04 EG: Yeah
30:05 HS: And they came back and started trying to play ball. They had been softball players
before they went, a lot of them.
30:11 EG: mm hmm
30:12 HS: And um, while they were gone, we had a junior AC. We were high school kids
30:19 EG: hm
30:19 HS: at the time. And that was, that was fun. We, uh, we played, uh, we started out at
one time before the war, or just right around the war time, there had been a girls’ team, and a
�boys’ team. They went, women had gotten a team together. Some company had sponsored
them and bought them uniforms
30:38 EG: mm hmm
30:40 HS: and got them started. There were women, women playing softball here.
30:42 EG: Yeah
30:42 HS: And the men’s, men’s team was all right at the range that they’d be going to the
war. So, uh, it didn’t the girls’ team didn’t last long, and most of the men’s team folded up. I got
in. I started off as batboy of the men’s team
30:54 EG: hm
30:55 HS: But I don’t know if that was 1939, or not, but I’ve got a picture some place to show.
But I was batboy at the age of fourteen or there abouts.
31:04 EG: yeah
31:04 HS: Because I was tall they’d stick me in when they were short of players, and I’d play
second base or right field
31:08 EG: [laugh]
31:08 MS: [laugh]
31:08 HS: or wherever I could play.
31:10 EG: Yeah.
31:11 HS: And all of a sudden there were two, three, more of us guyys that were playing with
the men’s team.
31:15 EG: Yeah.
31:15 HS: And pretty soon we were the men’s team.
31:17 EG: Yeah.
31:17 MS: [laugh]
31:18 HS: You know, just quickly because of the war thing
�31:19 EG: Yeah.
31:20 HS: The women’s team folded up, but get started to be the men’s team we ended up
being the junior AC’s. They called us for a while. We had these red uniforms, but they all zipped
on the side (pause)
31:34 EG: Ok
31:34 MS: Sure
31:35 HS: Where this is going?
31:35 EG: [laugh] Yeah. Yeah.
31:35 MS: [laugh]
31:37 HS: So we became the Douglas Squatters
31:40 EG: [laugh] yeah. Hm.
31:40 MS: Oh. [laugh]
31:45 HS: So anyway, that lasted a couple of years. Some guy in Saugatuck came up with that
name. I don’t take credit for it
31:51 MS: [laugh]
31:51 EG: [laugh]
31:51 HS: He called us, and after the red team folded quickly, because the men were gone we
became the AC’s. we were
31:59 EG: yeah
32:00 HS: In high school a couple three of us. We practiced and were working hard and uh,
32:04 EG: Yeah.
32:05 HS: Three or four guys could pitch, and several times we were short of people too. And
we were, not that many guys were all that athletic at school. There were a bunch of guys that
didn’t even play basketball or anything
32:17 EG: yeah
�32:17 HS: with the school. And the same with the town. So we had some helpers. We got
some people in from Fennville, and some people came along. We used to have a rivalry
between the lakeshore.
32:26 EG: mm
32:27 HS: There was a whole gang of guys at the lake shore level. They got a ball game team
together. And we’d get together, and play scrimmages, sort of. Pretty soon it was a real rivalry.
Games went on between the lakeshore and the Douglas ACs
32:41 EG: Wow
32:42 HS: And that’s still coming back because my daughter has a place on the lakeshore
32:46 EG: Yeah
32:47 HS: And she’s met people out there that have kids, second generation that remember
the Douglas AC’s and the Lakeshore team
32:53 EG: Right
32:53 HS: fighting and playing and couple of people remember me, because I’m still around,
but um, yeah that was fun. That was a good, good time.
33:01 EG: Tell us a little bit more. We’ve heard, and this has come up, lots of baseball. Lots of
people playing baseball in summer long growing up here in Douglas. And stories about the
athletic club. Tell us a little bit about, about the athletic club specifically. Like, what was that
place like?
33:17 HS: Well, the athletic club when I, when I was in it, when I was first able to get in it was
as, uh, scouts. We were the boy scouts. And, uh, at that time there was a deal with little cars,
little powered cars. Tether cars, they called them, were being raced, and we could race cars.
Not to track cars, was the next phase of the hobby. They were track cars, and they were on a
little tether. And you’d wind up the motor
33:45 EG: Ok.
33:45 HS: Or start a motor. They were just starting to build little teeny, teeny motors. And I
got into that phase, anything with mechanics that I could afford I was in
33:55 EG: [laugh] You wanted it
33:58 HS: I wanted it. I was a gear head. But um, I got a head, a side track there, towards the
um, towards the high school days. I used to mow lawns. I started off mowing jobs here in
�Douglas. I took a couple of couple of lawn jobs in Saugatuck and it quickly blossomed, and, uh,
the bank president saw me one day, mowing lawn, in his neighborhood. He called my dad who
was, you know, the village clerk at the time or treasurer, and he always had bank business. And
um, asked him if I could, would consider working in the bank. My dad said “Hell, yes.”
34:47 EG: [laugh]
34:47 MS: [laugh]
34:38 HS: So I ended up working in the bank, summers, and part time during the rest of the
year. On statement days and on weekends.
34:45 EG: yeah.
34:46 HS: So that’s how I got doing that, I was doing that
34:47 EG: Who, who, who was your, who was your
34:48 HS: from about 16.
34:50 EG: Who was the owner of the bank?
34:53 HS: Lim Brady. He was the manager of the Saugatuck branch. There was also one in, in
um, Fennville. And, up in Fennville, I think it was Al Hutchets, and he became a senator. I think
he was a senator. I’m not sure how the bank, per se, got started. Somebody, obviously with
money
35:13 EG: Right [laugh]
35:13 MS: [laugh]
35:13 HS: And it was called Fruit Grower’s State Bank.
35:15 EG: Right
35:17 HS: Which this is the fruit grower’s country big time in those days
35:20 EG: mm hm. W—ah, What do think attracted his attention? What do you think is about
you that he called your dad to ask him to hire you, to do that?
35:27 HS: I must have been working hard
35:28 EG: yeah.
�35:28 MS [laugh]
35:29 HS: And cheap
35:31 EG: You had your act together right? Industrious and
35:34 HS: Well, well I did do, I did paper route in Douglas, out of Douglas, uh, I could do that in
the mornings because paper route was in the afternoon. I used to be able to spend time with
the kids out on the lakeshore. I played some golf with the kids on the lakeshore for a while,
when the weather was nice. I worked at the golf course
35:55 EG: mm hm
35:56 HS: uh, he asked us to help clean up places a few times and, most of the time, caddy.
That was the only thing I ever did. I didn’t enjoy that too much, because that was a lot of work
for the money, uh, I don’t know, anyway. There was a lot of little things we could be to make
money, but the bank approach kind of stabilized some income.
36:15 EG: Yeah.
36:16 HS: And you didn’t go to work till 9, which I could still go hunting in the morning in the
fall. Which is what we did at school. We used to go hunting before we could, duck hunting or
something before.
36:27 EG: Yeah.
36:27 HS: [clear throat] so we had, we had a lot of opportunities if you wanted to work. The
kids were, as it is now work, you can work at various entities. There was an entertainment
center down on the water front, and on the weekends part now um (pause) um, the
paddleboat was built down there, Dick Hoffen built the paddle boat original paddle boat for
Saugatuck. He started that business.
36:51 EG: This was the Island Queen?
36:53 HS: Island Queen
36: 54 EG: Uh huh
36:55 HS: Queen One. Yup.
36:55 EG: Yeah. [laugh]
36:57 HS: So yeah. We had a lot of the things. There was kids that worked down there. An
interesting thing came when I got into college, um, my dad could get me on the summer time
�job routine after I quit the bank at 18. He could get me into the jobs in Douglas, Douglas Garage
because the county, the county had a program for student replacement of regulars so the
regulars could go on vacation.
37:24 EG: Yeah.
37: 24 HS: Because they had a hard, hard winter, you know?
37: 25 EG: Right
37: 27 HS: The regulars could go on vacation. They had a limit on how much money you could
make, and, um, uh, I ended up working for my dad for couple summers for the county from as
soon as I could get out in May to uh
37: 40 EG: yeah
37: 41 HS: End of September or early August. Then I had other jobs lined up. I could work the,
work the farm with my dad. I picked fruit a lot of summers, even from a teenaged level.
Cherries and apples and stuff. And, uh, I worked at a gas station out here which was Ray
Owzakaski’s (?) gas station. There used to be a mobile station where the buses are, bus barn is.
There was a big mobile station which crashed a couple of years. It finally went up and folded in
and they condemned the building and took it all down. It was a school bus barn building.
38: 12 EG: yeah.
38:13 HS: That’d been a mobile gas station.
38:15 EG: Ok
38: 15 HS: And I worked there sum, uh, uh, summers. Part time. You know, a lot of weekends
and whenever they needed me. And my dad could call me for the county because we’d have
Rick’s on 31. Big Rick’s had picked up
38:27 EG: Yeah.
38:27 HS: Steel trucks and campers and whatever else, and he’d have to have somebody get
to tow it away
38:33 EG: Right
38:34 HS: To get the road cleaned up again.
38:36 EG: What, what kind of work, say a little bit more about the work you did at the road
commission working with your dad.
�38:45 HS: Well with a truck the first year I came home, we’d had the tornado that came
through and wiped out the Oval. And it went up through the dunes. It took out the lighthouse
38:58 EG: Right
38:58 HS: The original light house, and went over the dunes and out into Laketown Township.
And it wiped out a family (pause) I’d have to think about that a little bit. It wiped out a family’s
home out there and a baby was involved. And the baby they were looking for the baby and we,
there was a lot of trouble there, you know. For a while, I was still in school. It was in early May.
As soon as I got out of school I came home and the first thing that we did was got on tree crew,
tree crew to clean up tree stuff and to help fix up those roads that way. So I’m driving trucks.
39:34 EG: Yeah
39:35 HS: Stuff I’ve never done before. Chainsaws
39:36 EG: yeah.
39:37 HS: Yeah. Two hand chainsaws and
39:39 EG: Right
39:39 HS: Stuff I never did before. Go do it anyway. So that was part of it. Then haul dirt, haul
brush, haul loads. We used to use a lot of gravel from gravel pits in Allegan, to bring them out
and fill gravel roads and fill potholes and fix things. One year, the second year, the bank and
caved out on the lakeshore. Uh, it’s been repaired since. You know where the bank cave in is
now? Where the road runs on the lakeshore?
40:06 EG: yeah.
40:06 HS: Do you know that?
40:08 EG: mmhmm
40:08 HS: Well before you get there, there was another spot that it caved in. Big time.
40:12 EG: Ok
40:13 HS: If you, um, just before 130, just north of 130th. Where that high spot is? That whole
spot had caved away right to the front yard of those houses. And at that time, somebody got
together and the ideas together to stabilize the bank. And we dumped everything we could
dump down there. Rebuild that. So yeah, I did a lot of truck driving, that’s probably be a big
thing.
�40:38 EG: Right.
40:38 HS: I did that at the beach, and I did a whole lot of other things.
40:41 EG: Right yeah.
40:41 HS: Road side, road side pickup. That’s interesting. Road side pickup included the parks
that ran on the side of the high way, the junk that now us groups do.
40:52 EG: yeah.
40:52 HS: Well anyway, we’d go along either shotgun or drive. We’d take turns. One guy sit on
the bumper with a pitchfork. Really
41:04 EG: Right
41:04 HS: And you’d have the tarp and you’d hook it into the back of the truck.
41:07 EG: Right
41:07 HS: That was one of the things. Then you’d empty the barrels when you’d get to one of
the road side parks. In the town here there’s one, and you know, township park and we’d hit
the park system along the lakeshore. And we’d patch roads. That was another big job was
patching, walk behind the truck and patch the little hole. So lot of, lot of stuff, but yeah, that
was very interesting. Um, I ended up when I got back and I got to work at the club. Now this
other side, but I worked at the club we had a road side pickup
41:39 EG: At the Rod and gun club? Yeah.
41:42 HS: We ended up when I was working when I joined the club, one on of the things they
did was road side pickup. So I said “Oh I can help out because that’s my area. That’s the area I
live in.” And, uh, so pretty soon the guy retired that was doing it, and I ended up doing it. So
I’ve been coordinating that effort for the club for years now. But, it’s been twelve years.
42:03 EG: Old experiences come in handy
42:05 HS: Old, experiences picking up garbage
42:08 EG: Aside from working at the road commission when you were back in the summers
from college, what where some of the others things that you got up to?
42:15 HS: I worked at the gas station.
�42:18 EG: Yeah
42:19 HS: Yep, put me out there because Ray Orzawoski was a racer, and the Douglas race
track he raced at. There were several local guys that thought they could race and there was a
$25 night for it they could make it to the showing
42:34 EG: Say that name of the garage owner again
42:37 HS: Ray Orzawoski was co owner
42:40 EG: ok
42:40 HS: with Ross Jennings
42:41 EG: Or- or
42:42 HS: It was Jennings garage it was
42:42 EG: Ok. Gotcha. All right.
42:45 HS: And Ray was the mechanic, engine mechanic
42:47 EG: Got it.
42:47 HS: And he’d take engines out of cars he’d wreck one week and put them in another one
and be ready to go the next week.
42:52 EG: Right
42:52 HS: And he was c, called the flying Polack because he had a pension for flying off the top
end with no guard rails on the track. With no safety. And he’d fly off the top end and wind up in
the woods out there. And, of course, that wrecked his car, so he had to find another one. So 34,
34 Ford Coups were piled up behind the place there.
43:15 EG: [laugh] that was the car of choice
43:15 MS: [laugh]
43:16 HS: yeah.
43:16 EG: Was that for him, or for most people? Was that common car?
43:19 HS: Well it was very
�43:21 EG: common?
43:22 HS: Very common race car in those days
43:23 EG: Yeah
43:24 HS: But, um, but the situation was, Boss Jennings, the senior, and I can’t remember
Floyd, Floyd Jennings had uh, had uh, retired. He had a hip problem, and he had retired to
Arizona and stuff. So he, um, [clear throat] he gave it to his brother and Ray bought fifty/fifty of
that station. His brother was, boss was uh, what was his name? I can’t remember his name, but
they called him boss. And he was P. O.’d because Ray spent all his time working on the cars.
And in those days they still serviced cars.
43:59 EG: Right
44:00 HS: So you went and pumped gas and cleaned the windshield and checked the oil and all
that stuff. So I did that changed oils and made wrecker runs and stuff like that, just basically.
But I got called away by my dad several times because a big wreck house trailer got smashed up
here by Holland and pieces all over the road, the road blocked and that kind of thing.
44:22 EG: yeah
44:23 HS: Big steel truck in the south somehow got jack knifed and scattered steel, steel I
remember that. I still got pieces of that around in the house. Little pieces, squares of steel.
44:37 EG: yeah.
44:37 HS: And they were laying all over place out there. And you had to, to pick the up, you
couldn’t use gloves. You had to pick them up with your bare hands and pull them out of the
road.
44:45 EG: wow
44:46 HS: And uh, anyway nice little welding
44:49 EG: Right. Good project pieces, right?
44:50 HS: good project pieces, right.
44:51 EG: [laugh]
44:54 HS: so anyway, that was, you know, I got called in to help that out so I could get paid on
overtime, my dad could get the overtime, I mean, I could get the overtime.
�45:01 EG: Yeah.
45:01 HS: And I gave him all the money so that whatever, uh, I needed for,
45:06 EG: For college
45:08 HS: college was
45:08 EG: yeah.
45:09 HS: was there
45:10 EG: All taken care of, yeah. Did you ever race any cars? Did you go to races?
45:13 HS: Well yeah, but that was a lot later. That was after I got out of college.
45:16 EG: ok
45:17 HS: That wasn’t here. That was after I got with Ford
45:19 EG: Ok. Gotcha. Uh, more, more about summer. I heard somewhere along the way you
had worked at the Dock.
45:26 HS: yeah, I worked at the Dock, that was, that was one of those had three jobs going
counting, counting the summer jobs. I ended up with the county one time, and I worked the gas
station on certain weekends at night. That was only 8-5 or so.
45:43 EG: Ok
45:43 HS: In evenings I could for the Dock. And I had a good family member, some family
member I would say, secondary family member
45:52 EG: yeah.
45:53 HS: Uh, in the bar. And I was only 18 or 19, I’m not sure which. I could do setups and
stock the bar and all that sort of thing, had me checking age. And that was, that was ok, except,
you know, here I kind of looked pretty young at the time. And you meet some guys that were
half drunk trying to get into the Dock.
46:13 EG: mmhm
46:13 MS: yeah.
�46:16 HS: And I had some, tough arguments a couple, three times. And the boss would send
me, the boss was a chicken.
46:24 EG: [laugh] put you in the line of fire so
46:26 HS: put me in the line of fire. I’m out there doing that.
46:29 EG: Yeah. What, just describe a little bit what the Dock was like uh,
46:34 HS: It was a very good restaurant. Good steaks. Good prime ribs and stuff. And it was at
the dock level where the boats where you’d walk and the windows, well the windows weren’t
all open but there was a couple of them. The boats could come in, but basically that was under
control, but the interesting part was that, some of the boats, well, those were party days. Some
of the boats would hire the band. And there was a boat that I always wanted to get on. And the
job business kind of got me out of right there. There, do you know what a PT boat is?
47:09 EG: mmhm. Yeah. From world war two
47:10 HS: From World War Two
47:11 EG: The Mosquito Boats
47:12 HS: There was a World War Two PT boat coming in from Wisconsin. The owner was
supposedly Slits Brewry (?). And he was coming in, had a jeep on back, on the back, and he had
a plane on the back with, with a davit, so he could drop the jeep on the dock and the jeep
would come up the dock to buy groceries, there were a lot of little grocery stores in those days
47:34 EG: Yeah.
47:34 HS: And a beautiful blonde with a monkey, a real monkey on the windshield of his jeep,
a purple jeep
47:43 EG: [laugh]
47: 43 MS: [laugh]
47:44 HS: Or pink. Not sure purple
47:46 EG: Yeah
47:49 HS: And this blonde was a knock out. And, uh, she was a good passenger. And
everybody knew about her.
47:50 EG: Toured around in this jeep.
�47:57 HS: Too bad there weren’t more cameras in town in those days. Nobody had any but the
little brownie box cameras, you know?
48:02 EG: Yeah, I’ve never seen a photo of this before. It sounds pretty entertaining.
48:05 HS: Very entertaining. She’d come up and, you know, wave at people
48:09 EG: They’d come up with some frequency then? From across the lake?
48:12 HS: They were, they’d come once, and I’m not sure about years even. But one year they
came a couple of times. They’d stay for a period of time. I’m not sure if they were dock limited
or if they were just limited, because one time I saw them, I saw him put the, uh, (?) in water,
you know like a piper cub
48:30 EG: Mmhm. Yeah
48:31 HS: And it, it had a little bit more power. It had the big the big floats on it.
48:35 EG: Yeah.
48:36 HS: He’d put that in the water with the davit, he’d hook it on up to the
48:38 EG: mmhm. Yeah.
48:39 HS: Put it in the water. And he’d go putzing up the river, pick it up, uh, way up above the
bridge and try to get up in the air and take off to stay away from the town because he took
forever to get in the air.
48:52 EG: Yeah. That’s a lot of drag.
48:54 HS: yeah. Do you remember, do you remember the Eddy Deveter(?) story with CV? Do
you remember that story?
49:00 EG: I’m not sure of that one.
49:03 HS: Well, at that time, you showed the other night, that, uh, hotel on the side of the
lake?
49:11 EG: yeah.
49:15 HS: With the story with the party? What was it? Blue Moon?
49:20 EG: The Blue Tempo?
�49:20 MS: Blue Tempo
49:21 HS: Blue Tempo?
49:21 EG: Yeah. The Blue Tempo Bar?
49:22 HS: The Blue Tempo was originally owned by Eddy Deveter (?) It was the Ed, was the Ed
Mar Hotel
49:28 EG: Ok. Right. Ok.
49:29 HS: That was the Ed mar Hotel (?)
49:30 EG: Right.
49:30 HS: Well Eddy, Deveter (?) his name was,
49:33 EG: yeah.
49:33 HS: Ended up building the place over on the other side, after they sold that. But, over on
the other side meaning Park Street. Off of Park Street. But it burned immediately. Anyway, um,
the um, I had a CB, they’re a pusher, plane
49:52 EG: Ok. Yeah.
49:53 HS: You can look that up
49:54 EG: I’ve seen that.
49:55 HS: look that up.
49:55 EG: No, I know what you’re talking about.
49:56 HS: Ok.
49:57 EG: Exactly. Yeah.
49:58 HS: It was a pusher.
49:59 EG: Yeah.
�49:59 HS: And it flown like a rock. Cause it took forever to get that thing going. And I used to
fish, periodically, out there on the, when I had time. This was not, uh, concurrent, you know,
let’s say with working
50:11 EG: Right
50:12 HS: Ok
50:13 EG: Yeah, yeah [throat clear]
50:16 HS: In probably the earlier years he was there, well it had been it the earlier forties he
came back from the war. He was a war vet. And he’d fly up the river and take off, and then he’d
come down and he’d come roaring through under the bridge, which was a short wind rock. And
to get the thing into the air when we’d have north west winds over bald head and in that area.
He had to rip his tail off for it. He had such a horrible roar all through the valley here getting
that thing up in the air. He flew that a lot, and Jack’s got some good pictures some good
memories of that. Cause he was around and saw some of that. I don’t remember all of the years
now.
50:57 EG: Ok
50:57 HS: He was around for two or three years, and he sold that hotel, and I never did know
about that. I knew the guy that owned it. Blue Tempo was owned by Toad Davis
51:08 EG: yeah.
51:09 HS: [clear throat]
51:11 EG: Yeah. Have a drink of water there. Have a drink
51:13 HS: yeah. Uh. Toad Davis ended up living right behind me. He had a
51:19 EG: Ok
51:20 HS: His mother built a house, his mother, his mother built her house up on Water Street
51:23 EG: Ok.
51:24 sounds of water pouring
51:30 EG: Toad’s come up in a few interviews
51:32 MS: Yeah
51:33 EG: Uh, kind of talk about the jazz scene here in Saugatuck
�51:38 HS: Well there was uh,
51:39 EG: Acts he had in there
51:40 HS: Yeah. There were a lot of bi- bi- genders around here in those days. A lot of them.
51:47 EG: Yeah
51:47 HS: And it was not coming out like it was recently you know, it wasn’t so obvious.
51:54 EG: hmm
51:55 HS: Era that we’re in now. There is, you know
51:57 EG: more openness
51:57 MS: Yeah
51:58 EG: more openness about
52:00 HS: openness
52:00 EG: gay people
52:01 HS: yeah. So that was, there were, um, and there was a lot of entertainment needed,
you know, they were willing to do it. Toad, Toad Davis was, like I say, nicest guy. He wanted, I
knew him, but he was older than I was. He was a war vet too that came back, Korean War,
probably talking most the
52:21 EG: Ok.
52:22 HS: guys that I knew of
52:24 EG: yea
52:24 HS: They were older than I, but, you know, not that far.
52:28 EG: Similar age grouping
52:29 HS: You know back when we were in high school, there were guys that, you know, my,
my um, I called him my mentor for basketball. I just copied his style and ended up with his shirt
number. He was a tall, lanky guy. He and I are still in touch with the Facebook. Um, long, lanky
�guy. Ran kind of awkwardly like I think I do (laugh), and you know, same kind of style baskets
and, I had a secret hook that I learned from watching him.
53:05 EG: uh huh. Yeah.
53:06 HS: And anyway, it was, it was fun to, uh, to see some of those guys came back and
talked to us while we were still in school and gave clues, you know. They’d been in and out.
53:15 EG: yeah
53:16 HS: of the army. They’d got their three years in and were out.
53:18 EG: Yeah.
53:20 HS: So it was fun to hear those stories. (?) a couple of those guys.
53:23 EG: Yeah. Yeah. So. Um, yeah. Kind of thinking back to the dock. You mentioned, that’s a
great story about the PT boat and
53:34 HS: Well the PT boat ended up coming and going, and one night, see this was all toward
the end of summer on the day was a big shoot out. Fourth of July was one.
53:47 EG: mmhmm
53:47 HS: Labor Day was too
53: 49 EG: yeah.
53:49 HS: Uh, those boats would get together and have big parties and everything going and
um, they were going to have the band, after we closed, go on the boat out
54:02 EG: mmhm. Yeah. Out, out into the, out into Kalamazoo Lake?
54:05 HS: out in the river
54:05 EG: out in the river? Out to Lake Michigan?
54:06 HS: Out to Lake Michigan
54:08 EG: yeah
54:09 HS: And this was starting at like two, three o’clock in the morning because my job ended
up right about then after clean up. And then I had to go to work at, I think it was seven or eight
in the morning. I don’t remember now. At the gas station
�54:22 EG: yeah.
54:23 HS: Uh, and I was whipped after two, three weeks of this kind of schedule
54:27 EG: yeah.
54:27 HS: And, uh, so I didn’t go
54:29 EG: did, didn’t go out on the boat.
54:30 HS: Didn’t go out in that boat.
54:33 EG: [laugh] hard, hard to hold responsibility you had there. Sounds like.
54:37 HS: Well it was a tough choice. That was one of my toughest choices in those days.
54:42 EG: [laugh] prob, probably not easy to tell your dad you’re not going to go to work the
next day or
54:48 HS: Well it wasn’t it wasn’t Sunday night. It was a Saturday night.
54:52 EG: yeah. Ok.
54:53 HS: So my weekends were I worked on the gas station.
54:54 EG: Ok
54:55 HS: Saturday and Sunday
54:56 EG: yeah.
54:56 HS: the daylight hours
54:58 EG: yeah. Right. What, uh, what were I mean, what were some of the things you saw, or
in what were parties like or what
55:07 HS: Well, one of the things that was in the dock that, that was pretty common was a lot
of drunkeness, and a lot of semisexual activity.
55:15 EG: Ok.
55:16 MS: [laugh]
�55:18 HS: I mean they weren’t, uh, weren’t shy. People weren’t shy in those days.
55:20 EG: Right.
55:21 HS: If some guy was putting the make on this girl and had her pretty well ready for, uh,
operation, little, uh,
55:28 EG: Ok
55:29 HS: And the boss saw me and “Show some— got get him”
55:35 slapping noises against hard surface (table?)
55:36 HS: And I got over there and take him apart
55:39 MS: [laugh]
55:39 EG: yeah. Tough job as 18, 19 year old, right? You know, “Excuse me, sir”
55:45 HS: yeah.
55:46 EG: Did you throw them out or did you just tell them act more appropriate or?
55:49 HS: I, I, I said that’s not appropriate or something to that effect. And I got him to back
off and take her out of there.
55:59 EG: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So kind of, kind of wild times. What were, uh, at the, oh, at the
Docks specifically? What did people drink in those days?
56:09 HS: Seven and Seven was big. Switz beer was big and so was Stroll’s
56:16 EG: These were on draft or bottles?
56:18 HS: bottles. We didn’t do draft.
56:19 EG: yeah.
56:21 HS: But I, I could mix the seven and sevens. Gin buck was good. Do you know what a gin
buck is? Gin
56:25 EG: I don’t
56: 26 HS: Gin and tonic
�56:27 EG: Ok. All right.
56:27 MS: [laugh]
56:28 HS: Gin buck, uh, were common. Yeah. I could do the mix ups
56:32 EG: yeah.
56:34 HS: But not put the liquor in.
56:34 MS: Ah
56:35 EG: Got cha. Got cha.
56:36 HS: And serve the people. So whenever I was not stocking and getting empty beer
bottles, I was putting cold ones in.
56:42 EG: Right
56:44 HS: Uh, doing everything.
56:45 EG: Yeah. Where were folks from that were, that were in there summer time?
56:48 HS: There were a lot of people from Illinois. Uh, it was rare to find people from Chic,
from the east side of the state. But one of the girls I met was from Dearborn.
57:00 EG: Ok. Yeah.
57:02 HS: But not very many. Not very many. A lot of them out of Allegan, Kalamazoo, Grand
Rapids, and Chicago, obviously, Chicago, oh and Indiana. That was big. And those motorcycles
they talked about [throat clear]. All I remember is my wife’s from Detroit, but she came over
here with me a lot in our early years, and she remembers seeing a lot of motorcycles in the
sixties and seventies too. We got married in fifty-eight or so, fifty-nine (pause). But I was
thinking. We used to run into, when I was motorcycle riding, we used to run into these Bless
the Motorcycle rallies. These guys get together by the hundreds, these, clubs. They’d go to
party some places. And it just depended on where they decided to party. You know, it’s like,
they’d do a preview, and I’d run into them a couple of times up north. More, more than,
probably three times at least up north. I know they used to come to Saugatuck once in a while.
58:02 EG: yeah
58:02 HS: you could get a big, big gang
58:03 EG: right
�58:04 HS: Otherwise they were all impromptu. Uh, used to work came over on his own, so you
know, the guys that rode the motorcycles were here by the fifties, sixties was the magnet.
58:17 EG: Hm, that was, yeah, we heard that from a few people that that was the big
motorcycle place there or destination.
58:24 HS: yeah.
58: 25 EG: yeah. For sure. Were there other places like, sounds like once you were older that
you went out to aside from working at the dock that you go to and see friends or have drinks
and listen to music?
58:35 HS: Well, as soon as, um, I dated a couple of couple of different gals, and there was a
dancehall down by Paw Paw.
58:45 EG: Ok.
58:47 HS: That was a nice thing. There was another one up at um, Spring Lake. Dancehalls.
These were World Wars two ex- bands and/ or new/ old bands. Kind of rejuvenating.
59:00 EG: yeah.
59:01 HS: And those dance halls were, were fun to go to. At least I didn’t dance much but
59:05 EG: Yeah. That was through (?) music
59:09 HS: I, I liked the music yeah. I was very much in favor of the music. Still am.
59:14 EG: Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Uh, what about some of the musical acts you had? You
mentioned the band going out on the boat at two o’clock in the morning at the dock. What
were some of the acts you had there at the dock?
59:25 HS: uh
59:25 EG: Or kinds of music you had? What were they playing?
59:29 HS: I couldn’t tell you. You know? It, it, it was more or less popular. And a lot of it was
World War Two based.
59:35 EG: Ok
59:36 HS: And these bands at least, at least one of the people I know, um, was a piano player
and he stayed there full time. Lived, lived here in Saugatuck afterwards
�59:48 EG: Ok
59:48 HS: He, he bought a place, the other place was
59:50 EG: Do you remember his name or act was?
59:52 HS: His name was Bill Johnson
59:54 EG: Ok.
59:54 MS: Ok.
59:55 HS: His name was Johnson, yeah. He’s long gone, but he bought a place out in the
woods by us, and I knew him. We got permission to go, to go and hunt out on his property
because he had nice property out there. In fact I got a deer out on his property
1:00:07 EG: Wow. [laugh]
1:00:08 HS: Oh yeah. That um, that was kind of nice and then, I don’t know if you hear this but
there was a group of band players [clear throat] who used to stop on their way back to Chicago,
or, specifically, came to play at the What Not Inn
1:00:27 EG: Ok.
1:00:28 HS: And one of the band players was an orchestra pit band player. These aren’t top
names all the time.
1:00:34 EG: Sure.
1:00:35 HS: But she always would play with her back to the orchestra-to the, the audience.
1:00:40 EG: didn’t want that, wasn’t used to all that action.
1:00:45 HS: She had her friends, partners, they were, uh L, uh, anyways she was down here for
quite a few years.
1:00:52 EG: Ok. And what years was this?
1:00:54 HS: hmm?
1:00:56 EG: What years would that have been roughly? (pause)
1:01:02 HS: Would have been into the sixties.
�1:01:03 EG: Ok.
1:01:04 HS: Could have been sixties. My, my, a lot of my experience here left me in sixty-five
‘cause we went out of the country for a few years.
1:01:12 EG: yeah.
1:01:12 HS: That’s a big hole in my history around this town.
1:01:16 EG: Gotcha. So I have to clarify just some stuff. So you graduated here in 53 and went
to Indiana and went off to school or back, back and forth in the summers?
1:01:25 HS: Yep
1:01:25 EG: Stories with that, uh, graduated with, moved back to this area, or, what, what
happened?
1:01:32HS: No, I went to work for Ford Motor Company in Dearborn.
1:01:36 EG: Oh, o.
1:01:37 HS: Dearborn Engineering.
1:01:39 EG: Ok. At the headquarters there, or?
1:01:40 HS: Well it was the engineering center
1:01:42 EG: Ok. Yeah.
1:01:44 HS: I wasn’t at headquarters till later years.
1:01:47 EG: Ok. Gotcha. And then uh, so you were travelling coming back here to spend time
with family and spend time here.
1:01:53 HS: yeah, yeah. We had a lot of family around here and they were, they were in their
senior years of course.
1:02:00 EG: Ok.
1:02:00 HS: We were losing them.
1:02:02 EG: how, how often did you make the trip from Dearborn to here, like to the west side
of the state?
�1:02:07 HS: I’d do that every two weeks if I could
1:02:10 EG: Yeah.
1:02:10 HS: We had other friends to visit. My wife’s family was a large family, so we had a lot of
things to do over there.
1:02:18 EG: Yeah. And they were from Dearborn? That area? Detroit area?
1:02:21 HS: Uh, yeah, Lincoln Park or wester Dearborn area. And they were a close knit family.
Big family. So we had, we had a lot of places to go and do things. When we went out of the
country for a while, that was, we were gone four years. Um, the kids were getting to the point
to see Grandpa and Grandma, and I said I think it’s time to get back home, so. I cut my overseas
potential overseas stay and down
1:02:50 EG: Where, where were you now?
1:02:52 HS: I was in Venezuela. But I was being asked to go to Ecuador, and uh,
1:02:57 EG: yeah
1:02:58 HS: Chile
1:02:59 EG: All right.
1:02:59 HS: And I think in Argentina. In that time it was, it was sort of stable but it was starting
to get into that big hiccup with, with the economy.
1:03:09 EG: mmhm. Yeah. For sure. So you’d come over here ever couple, once or twice a
month you’d make the drive over. And then, uh, did you spend extended time here during the
summer or, you know? Vacations?
1:03:21 HS: No. no. When I was travelling I could bring my wife and kids over, and they’d stay
with my folks. And then they could do that, and I could fly out of Grand Rapids and go to
Arizona or wherever I had to go. California. But, uh, I was in testing. So that meant working with
the vehicles, you know, wherever I needed to be used.
1:03:42 EG: Right.
1:03:43 HS: How I needed to be used.
1:03:44 EG: Right. Yeah. Very interesting. Tell us a little bit about your wife and your children.
�1:03:51 HS: Well my wife was, I met her at Ford. She was a secretary in the Berkley division
which I hired into initially. And uh, we all, had a big party, a lot of fun went on for years there.
Skiing, actually. And uh, snow skiing that is. And, uh, she had been coming over to here and
going to Florida and doing some of the things that some of my friends had, so. It was really
natural. And we had, um, three girls. And they all grew up coming over here regularly. They
used to call the original drug store here in Douglas the candy store. It was Jack and Eva Tyler,
took over from Norton when Norton’s, did you ever hear Norton name before?
1:04:41 EG: Heard that name
1:04:43 HS: Norton had the, the drug store. Big two story, on the corner. Right down the block
here. Just, just right down the block. Just, the post office is past here. And then the next street
is the, I don’t even know what that store is, that building on the left is now, but that building
was the new drug store. The old drug store was the next two story. And
1:05:14 MS: Ok.
1:05:14 HS: And, and Mr. Norton’s drug store used to have a soda bar and everything. But there
was something in half of it that I don’t remember what it was. But when he died, the store, they
sold it. And I think the Catholic Church bought it and put it into a Catholic School. I think that’s
the order of things. And Jack and Eva Tyler bought the drug store part, rights, and they built the
building next door. And that became the candy store. All it was, was candy and papers, and
that’s where I worked out of, the drug, bring those papers and stuff.
1:05:56 EG: Ok
1:05:56 MS: Oh.
1:05:57 HS: But I remember, when I was in my downtown years, uh, sitting up at the counter
and getting a chocolate sundae at the Norton’s drug store there.
1:06:07 EG: Yeah.
1:06:08 HS: Like a (?) drug. And finally the Saugatuck drugstore duplicated that system years
later when they built the, rebuilt the back of the store. They put a counter in there. You ever, I
don’t know if they still do that or not.
1:06:26 EG: I don’t know. I haven’t been there to see it yet.
1:06:27 HS: They put, they put an old fashioned drug store counter in there.
1:06:31 MS: That’s awesome
1:06:32 EG: yeah.
�1:06:32 HS: So it isn’t, you know. Ice cream sundaes and ice cream (?) stuff. So anyway we, the
kids know that, and we took them, we used to go to Gosemer Lake swimming because that was
semi, well. It was not public. It was private. And they started charging ten cents for a person to
go in there. And you could go swimming there, and it was calm, and the water was warm
1:07:01EG: Mmhm. Yeah. Yeah. That seems like it was quite the destination those years.
Gosemer Lake resort. Yeah.
1:07:10 HS: Mhm. It was very popular.
1:07:11 EG: What, uh, what was your wife’s name? What was her
1:07:14 HS: Paula
1:07:14 EG: Paula. And her maiden name?
1:07:16 HS: Martin
1:07:17 EG: Martin.
1:07:18 HS: Mmhm
1:07:19 EG: And then your daughters, you said you had two daughters
1:07:20 HS: Three
1:07:20 EG: Three. Three daughters. And what are there names?
1:07:23 HS: Sandra, Julie, and Christine.
1:07:28 EG: Are they, are they on the east side of the state still, or did they settle in other
places?
1:07:30 HS: Well they, uh, Sandra, the oldest, she lives in the Detroit area now. She’s in
northern Detroit.
1:07:35 EG: Ok.
1:07:36 HS: Uh by Wayne county, Wayne, uh, Wayne uh, State University.
1:07:41 EG: Oh, ok.
1:07:42 HS: And she’s had a lot of career choices and moved around quite a bit.
�1:07:48 EG: Right.
1:07:49 HS: She’s still not married. And the middle one, Julie, she has a place out here in
Douglas, on the Douglas lakeshore.
1:07:56 EG: Oh.
1:07:57 HS: And she brings all, the whole family together when she’s here. And then Christina’s
in Florida, Gainesville. And she has a place, uh, in Saint Augustine, so when we go to Florida we,
uh, have them making a big loop down there with our friends and family. Sandy was in Saint
Aug, Saint Augustine also.
1:08:17 EG: yeah
1:08:17 HS: And then she was in, uh, Fort Lauderdale for quite a while too.
1:08:22 EG: mmhm.
1:08:22 HS: And that was a nice, nice area to go visit in the winter time. We’ve been managing
to make a tour for years and, we’ve kind of slowed things down the way things are going now.
1:08:32 EG: right. Yeah. For sure
1:08:34 HS: Grandkids and college, that changed our timetable entirely. Couldn’t just go on
Spring Break anymore. There was no such thing as a spring break. They’re all on spring break all
the time it seems like.
1:08:46 EG: right. Different schedules I know where you’re at. For sure.
1:08:50 HS: you, you agree
1:08:51 MS: Oh yeah
1:08:51 EG: mmhm
1:08:53 HS: It’s weird, trying to, trying to Spring Break time.
1:08:57 MS: No, every place does it at a different time so. Yeah. Few different schools here, and
it feels like it’s constantly spring break
1:09:03 HS: yeah.
1:09:04 MS: For different schools. [laugh]
�1:09:06 HS: So that um, pretty much covers uh, those years. Ford years are a whole thing that I
don’t intend to get into.
1:09:15 EG: Maybe for, maybe for another interview we could sit down and talk about that. Uh,
thinking about summers. Thinking about change over time. We touched on it a little bit. You
mentioned, um, you mentioned, um, the sort of LGBT population and gay folks
1:09:35 HS: more forward
1:09:35 EG: in the community and, more, more out in the open. Do you remember much, you
talked about, uh, Toad Davis’ place the Blue Tempo and that, what was, what was kind of the
community reactions to that, or were there really none?
1:09:49 HS: Just none, yeah really that I’m aware of, let’s put it that way.
1:09:53 EG: yeah.
1:09:54 HS: There may have been a few people offended but, you know, we saw a lot of them,
uh in our younger days. Palling around here. Um, I never saw anything that was obsessively,
um, outward let’s say. The only thing you might want to find out about, have you ever seen any
pictures of the conglomeration of little tents down by the Oval?
1:10:20 EG: I’ve not.
1:10:23 MS: No
1:10:23 EG: I’m not sure what you’re, not sure what you mean there.
1:10:25 HS: Gosh I wish I had a picture. North of the Oval, while it was still Dennyson property
1:10:31 EG: Right
1:10:33 HS: They had to block off the whole area. They had a gate because those guys would
take off and put their little tents up
1:10:39 EG: Is this, like a nude bathing area?
1:10:41 HS: Nude bathing area
1:10:42 EG: yeah
1:10:43 HS: big section all the way down to what now is part of Saugatuck. That whole area.
�1:10:48 EG: yeah
1:10:49 HS: And the dunes were covered with them.
1:10:50 EG: Ok
1:10:50 HS: With these little tents
1:10:52EG: Yeah
1:10:54 HS: Little two man tents
1:10:55 EG: Right
1:10:56 HS: And they were in the water without suits. Hugging and kissing and the whole works.
Quite a bunch of them.
1:11:03 EG: Right
1:11:03 HS: And it was a little bit upsetting to me because we were boaters at that time.
1:11:07 EG: yeah
1:11:08 HS: And, uh, but they stayed together. They were to themselves. They didn’t seem to,
that I know of
1:11:15 EG: yeah
1:11:15 HS: Cause any issues. But um, we, uh, had our kids out there. You know, three girls are
kind of interested in what was going on in those days. So the binoculars
1:11:27 EG: Right [laugh] One more challenge from the water with kids is, hard to answer
questions
1:11:34 HS: Yeah, I don’t know how we explained it. You know. Kids, kids got to expect it. Cause
we went once and then we, you know, every weekend we could we’d get out on the lake and
go for a ride
1:11:46 EG: And this would have been in the early 1960’s? Late 1950’s?
1:11:48 HS: Well
1:11:48 EG: What kind of time period
�1:11:49 HS: Well Sandy was born in 59, it would have been late 60’s
1:11:54 EG: yeah
1:11:54 HS: Oh not, excuse me, it couldn’t we were out of town. Out of the country. Late
(pause), early seventies probably would have been the latest we would have seen that. Cause
when we came back from Venezuela, uh, I got a boat. We had a house trailer before then. I sold
it, and we got a boat, and, um we took some travel things, and we got in the boat about 70. So
early 70’s. And um, that’s when we were out there. And the kids were bigger then. A lot bigger.
1:12:29 EG: Yeah.
1:12:29 HS: you know, teenagers
1:12:30 EG: right
1:12:30 HS: Getting to be, the oldest one was
1:12:34 EG: yeah
1:12:34HS: You know and just about the second was. So we had that boat for a little while and
then soon they were in college. And I couldn’t afford boats and cars and colleges and
1:12:41 EG: Sure
1:12:31 MS: Yeah. That makes sense
1:12:46 EG: That, that happens. Do you remember, was there talk about that in town, the, the
nude
1:12:51 HS: you know, I can’t say that we were in town
1:12:54EG: yeah
1:12:54 HS: because we were out of town in the 60’s.
1:12:56 EG: Right
1:12:57 HS: And then in the 70’s and 80’s we were family. The only time we came over was to
stay at my folks place and
1:13:02 EG: Right
1:13:03 HS: And they were still alive then.
�1:13:05 EG: yeah.
1:13:05 HS: My dad died in 72, so we were through the 70’s pretty much at that house up on
the hill, and we ended up selling it in the 80’s.
1:13:16 EG: yeah. Very interesting. Wealth of, wealth of information. Did you have any
questions that you wanted to ask? Was there anything?
1:13:24 MS: Um
1:13:25 EG: We talked about a lot of different things here today
1:13:28 MS: Yeah. Yeah.
1:13:30 HS: Well I, um, got a little out of line with some of them, but thinking
1:13:34 EG: Not at all
1:13:34 HS: the sequence of events
1:13:35 EG: Not at all.
1:13:37HS: But, um, you know we used to have a lot of interesting, interesting things going on
in Douglas. We used to have dancing. That was fun.
1:13:43 MS: Oh really?
1:13:44 HS: I remember bringing my first girlfriend over to show to my folks, go square dancing.
1:13:53 EG: Where was that? Where did that happen?
1:13:54 HS: On the tennis courts down there.
1:13:55 EG: Ok. Just right on the, right out in town
1:13:57 HS: Yeah, I don’t even think they’ve got tennis now anymore. Or maybe they do
1:13:58 MS: Don’t think so?
1:14:01 HS: I think they tore that one out too
1:14:02 MS: yeah.
�1:14:02 EG: I think so
1:14:04 HS: Geez!
1:14:05 EG: yeah. Changes. Yeah.
1:14:06 MS: Yeah.
1:14:07 HS: they really, I don’t approve of what they did to the park to be honest with you. It’s
playground now. I don’t know if that’s what it was meant to be or not, but that’s what they
wanted (pause) my kids liked tennis! They all got into tennis. They learned at Douglas Park out
if you, have you ever been out to Douglas Park?
1:14:28 MS: mm, I think I’ve gone by it, but I haven’t, like driven past it.
1:14:32 HS: Now it’s going to, now it’s got, what do you call it? Wiffle--- pickle ball.
1:14:36 EG: Oh right!
1:14:36 HS: They got pickle ball courts out there. They switched to pickle ball. I guess somebody
donated a lot of money to convert the tennis courts.
1:14:42 EG: It’s a popular sport, it’s really taken off
1:14:45 MS: yeah.
1:14: 45 HS: It’s popular, and the courts were not well done to begin with. So I agreed with that.
At one point I was going to try to help out, try to get it straightened out for them but it didn’t
seem like they wanted to do it.
1:15:00EG: Um, well one of the questions I like as we’re wrapping up, uh, this interview today is
thinking about, we’ve talked so much about the past, but thinking about the future. So, we will
be saving these interviews for a long time. Imagine someone listening to this fifty or more years
from now. What are some things you’d like them to know about your life and about the
community right now?
1:15:24 HS: hmm. Well, I wouldn’t mind somebody remembering I was here, but I know that
won’t happen.
1:15:35 EG: Anything in particular that you might imagine someone in the future would want to
know or, you know about life in the, life in this place
1:15:46 HS: Well, I guess I want to have them respect their heritage that they inherited, you
know? The town that it was, and the hard life that people had to have to get here, to make this
�place happen. I mean, these people were all pioneers the people that started this town Douglas
in 18, I have a picture in my stuff that my dad, it was 1860 that the town was incorporated. My
dad is holding the original incorporation books.
1:16:11 EG: yeah
1:16:12 MS: wow
1:16:12 HS: My dad held that, and they had a centennial, centennial, uh, ceremony right in
Douglas.
1:16:17 EG: Right
1:16:17 MS: Oh yeah
1:16: 18 HS: at the time and Tid Lane (?) wrote a lot about about that in one of her books. And,
uh, but there was Schulz boys, picture of the Schulz boys. Well there were my dad’s uncles. I
know all, knew all of them. I saw all of them.
1:16:36 EG: yeah.
1:16:36 HS: At various times. There were a lot of Schulz’s around. And I wouldn’t mind being
one of them. Some of those guys were, were working hard. Schulz was a big name in this area a
long time ago. There’s still a bunch of them here. It’s really hard sorting it out. My daughter is
doing a, um, has started doing a, what do you call it? The family
1:17:00 MS: genealogy
1:17:00 EG: family tree
1:17:00 HS: genealogy study. And we’ve gone to cemeteries and tried to sort it out. It, it’s very
difficult to uh, keep it going. I’ve recently found a book that my dad kept records of for the
village of Douglas while he was clerk. And I’ve talked to Mary about that last night. Uh, I’m
going to keep the book. It’s part of our family, but it’s got stuff the village of Douglas should be
interested in.
1:17:24 MS: Oh nice
1:17:24 EG: mmhm
1:17:26 HS: And I’ve talked to the village of Douglas and they don’t have any interest in keeping
court records like that.
1:17:32 EG: right
�1:17:32 MS: interesting
1:17:33 HS: So, you guys are it
1:17:34 EG: That’d be something interesting to have a look at to consider scanning or just
making notes about what it is
1:17:39 HS: Oh that’s what Mary said, so I’m going to make an appointment with Mary here as
soon as I can.
1:17:44 EG: That’d be great.
1:17:44 HS: And, uh, loan it to her for whatever they take, but it’s, it’s uh, it’s like a little diary,
you know, like. I was surprised to find it. It had been in our stuff for years, but my brother in law
had taken over the old house, and cleaned out the old house, he and my sister. And my sister
died not that long after that. She was the family historian. And when she died, he, I don’t know.
He pulled switches with the houses. I don’t know, but he switched with his, his mother had died
about the same time. And they switched houses with his mother’s kids, kids’ in Grand Rapids,
his, you know, nephew. But he switched house, because they were living in Grand Rapids, and
in the process all this got stored somewhere. And one of the places was a storage bin. So they
had to clear the storage bin out and that’s where this stuff came from.
1:18:45 EG: Ok
1:18:45 HS: A couple of years ago.
1:18:48 EG: yeah
1:18:48 HS: but there’s still some major Schulz background stuff that is missing. My dad, we had
a special book with all that stuff.
1:18:54 MS: Oh
1:18:55 EG: right
1:18:56 HS: Because my sister was the historian, I said you keep it. That disappeared.
1:19:00 EG: Hasn’t turned up yet.
1:19:02 HS: yup
1:19:03 EG: yeah that’s always challenging, for sure.
�1:19:06 HS: I’ve got pieces of stuff because there were other family members and I’ve got bits
and pieces. And somebody turned in some stuff here that I didn’t have. Somebody else did, and
I don’t know where it came from. And that was Uncle Jack’s tavern up here. He had a tavern,
and you know I mentioned my aunt went to the war effort?
1:19:23 EG: mmhmm
1:19:23 MS: mmhmm
1:19:23 HS: Well after the war she came back, here, and in 46 they bought Bill Schulz’s
restaurant, and they couldn’t get a liquor license because it was too small. So he built a place
and got his liquor license across the street. And that became Douglas Tavern. Which became
Annie’s Woodshed years later when he died.
1:19:44 MS: I see
1:19:45 HS: And, uh, anyway 46, and you know, there’s a lot of that stuff she brought him back,
you know from the war effort. She got him some place.
1:19:53 EG: Very interesting
1:19:54 MS: Yeah
1:19:55 EG: Lots of, lots of change over time. Kind of a final question—biggest changes you’ve
seen in the community, and maybe things that have just remained consistent. What have you
seen that’s changed since you were a child here?
1:20:11HS: Oh, everything. The town was a ghost town in a lot of ways. Buildings were all old,
and the whole area in general, I would say has profited from the LGBT movement to some
extent. Because what’s happened, all these old forty acre farms, several of them have been
split up and sold and what have you, and to my knowledge a lot of them are being taken over
by these mixed, mixed couples, pairs.
1:20:42 EG: mmhmm, right.
1:20:42 HS: Not necessarily mixed, I don’t think. They can be mixed in that one can call it a main
residence, and the other one can call it not be a main residence.
1:20:53 MS: Ok
1:20:54 HS: And the pairs make money, and they (?) and old forty acre farm
1:21:03 EG: yeah.
�1:21:03 HS: And it’s nice and robust again, and they’re not making any money necessarily, but
they’re making money elsewhere. I, we met a lot, a couple of them, pilots for example, and
guys that are making some pretty good money. Lawyers. Two guys have bought my cottage.
One was a dentist, and I don’t remember what the other one was now, but they were
professionals. And, uh, they bought our cottage, you know, so they can have it on this tax roll
thing. You guys have probably hear of it, haven’t you? That the locals, second house, you pay
full tax on it?
1:21:34 EG: homestead tax. Homestead tax.
1:21:38 HS: The homestead tax, there’s only good for the homestead. So you can declare, one
guy declares it his homestead. And then the other does in the other place. It’s kind of common
in a lot of places now
1:21:50 EG: Interesting.
1:21:52 HS: So that gets them different, you know, a farm a forty-acre farm is big money for a
lot of people. In my grandparents’ days, a lot of people, and they could make a living off of it.
Fruit and what have you. Not so anymore.
1:22:08 EG: What, what remains, what’s something that’s consistent that you see that’s really
that remains much the same about this place? When you grew up and came here in the 1950’s
and 60’s and 70’s
1:22:22 HS: I think it’s still the same in, the uh, intent to entertain. Beach is, of course, our big
entertainment. Uh, I’m sorry to see things like the Big Pavilion never go rejuvenated because
that was a major, uh, maybe the town couldn’t have handled it. I don’t know. South Haven had
one. It burned. Uh, there’s been Pavilions like this in other towns up the street. Uh, that’s not a
form of entertainment anymore, but could be. I don’t know. You know, when I was a kid, I went
to go to those jam sessions, I saw Louis Armstrong a few times, well a couple times, and other
band, big bands. And that was fun too you know, and kids go to band places like that now. Even
bigger crowds now. So, is that what we want? Apparently the town didn’t want that because
we had the big jam sessions here. Do you remember the Newport Jazz Festivals? In the old
days? Did you ever hear of that?
1:23:29 EG: Read about them, sure. Yeah.
1:23:30 HS: Well, ok. I read about them because, because Playboy was always writing about
those and all the musicians that went to those festivals. And Saugatuck was trying to to do the
same thing. And they threw them out of town. You’ve probably gotten into the history enough
to see that.
1:23:48 EG: Oh sure. Yeah. The Great Jazz Festivals around 1960.
�1:23:54 HS: We were, our house was in Douglas, up to the East as I said here. Up on the hill kind
of where the river, Kalamazoo river homes are, and, um, we could hear the jazz festival that
was out at the airport. I never heard about the one that was in Saugatuck that was at Gosemer
Lake
1:24:09 EG: Right that was later.
1:24:12HS: Yeah, that was, I don’t know about that.
1:24:13 EG: Late 1960’s
1:24:14 HS: Must have been when I was out of town or something. And I traveled a lot in the
summer months. July and August, June, July, and September were key months for me to be on
the job going someplace else. Wondered why my wife didn’t divorce me as a matter of fact, but
she had her family and sisters and baby sitters. A couple of her sisters were able to babysit, and
she had things to do, so. And a couple of buddies that were lucky.
1:24:47 EG: mmhm. Yeah.
1:24:47 HS: And you get into racing. You know, I was really into racing at Ford so that was real
tough to back out of that. Cause I’m still in racing now, just watching it.
1:24:56 EG: [laugh] Wonderful. Is there anything else that we haven’t asked you about that you
would like to share as we conclude our interview for today?
1:25:10 HS: No, but I had friends in the auto industry that I get together with, and boy a lot of
stuff comes up sometimes. One of my friends was in Chrysler. He worked at Chrysler during the
racing days against Ford.
1:25:21 EG: Ok.
1:25:22 HS: We, uh, I don’t know any jam guys anymore, but it’s fun to get together to discuss
things that we have common interest in. And I love to see these shows, these history shows
that go back and dig into these kind of things.
1:25:37 EG: Yeah. We were at the Henry Ford Museum not too long ago, and they had a great
exhibit of course on Ford racing. That was um, that was really really interesting.
1:25:49 HS: Yeah, well, we were out of the country when Ford racing. Some of my buddies were
involved in building race cars that went to Le Mont. And Ford was rejected by Ferrari, they
wanted to buy Ferrari was kind of down on the outs, and Henry Ford was rejected, his offer to
buy Ferrari.
1:26:09 EG: What year, what year was that?
�1:26:11 HS: About 1964 or so
1:26:13 EG: Ok.
1:26:14 HS: He said we’re going to beat you anyway. We’re going to beat you big time. And he
did. Ford was founded on racing. That’s how Ford Motor company got its start was by Henry
Ford the Oneth out racing the guy that became the head of Chevrolet. He got the money, got
his backing to build a company. So that’s why I was always kind of, I was always pro Ford, even
though everyone else around here was Chevrolet. I had a couple Chevies. I had
1:26:50 EG: Was a Chevy town.
1:26:52 HS: Huh?
1:26:53 EG: It was a Chevy town
1:26:53 HS: It was a Chevy town. The closest Chevy factory. There was one in Grand Rapids and
one in Kalamazoo. Chevy factories, GM factories. And that, besides whatever I don’t know, all
chevies around here, pretty much, although model a was a pretty close second in some
categories. Like truck for example. I try to picture my dad’s, he had an old model a truck, and
they were hauling on the farm, and they were hauling loads of fruit, I’m not sure what it was.
They were, they were a pear farmer. Pears are, do you know what pears are, the types of
pears? Do you ever in the market at all? There’s only certain kinds that will be in a market,
because they’re firm. The good pears go so soft so fast you can’t hardly ship them. And if you
cut, pick them too early, you know, you’re not even getting them to market. So they’re really
tricky. Well they were a pear farmer. And peaches. Peaches were big around here. There was
Peach Belt School out our way. Anyway, they had a Chase School. That was my mother’s family
name, Chase.
1:28:08 EG: Right
1:28:08 HS: And, so anyway, they were taking Pier Cove at it. Pier, and they were taking this old
truck loaded with fruit out to the cove and getting it onto the ships to Chicago and wherever
else on the Great Lakes. Milwaukee of course is straight across. That’s even closer than Chicago.
But I think most of them went to Chicago market. Then there were years they did truck driving.
After the boats were not so popular, because you can’t do it in the winter, at only certain times
are they viable. And trucks, they were able to take, one of the guys here on the farm was still
taking to the Chicago fruit market not too many years ago, because they still have fruit in some
of the areas of south. Blueberries of course are the popular thing over here. They’ve all
discovered blueberries as a thing. Pretty nice thing to handle. And of course cherries up the
coast, you know, Traverse City way. All this fruit farming is still being used. It’s just different in
that way.
�1:29:10 MS: mmhmm.
1:29:11 HS: All these little farms folded that were trying to make money on that. You know my
grandpa’s was forty-acres. Any number of forty-acre places around my place that you can see.
Some of them split up the place and turned it into a house and thirty-nine acres or whatever.
It’s good to see the buildings not getting ripped up too bad, the stores. There’s some nice
architecture out there. There’s a guy next to, two guys next to me that have restore these old
home sites. One of them has go a lot farm. My property was on a big farm. And we got 14 acres,
but they split it all up in fives and tens, and uh, that one, so the apple trees that are there are
probably that big around, you know. But the Cranes are surviving. They are the survivors.
They’ve learned, you know, how to do it.
1:30: 13 EG: yeah. Well, that’s those are some great stories. I’m glad we connected with you.
Thank you so much for your time. I’m going to go ahead and stop the recording at this point
and conclude our formal interview.
Interview ends 1:30:28
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1910s-2010s
Source
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Various
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Michigan, Lake
Allegan County (Mich.)
Beaches
Sand dunes
Outdoor recreation
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Contributor
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Saugatuck-Douglas History Center
Identifier
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Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
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image/jpeg
application/pdf
Type
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Image
Text
Language
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English
Date
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2018
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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DC-07_SD-SchultzH-20181004
Creator
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Schultz, Howard
Date
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2018-10-04
Title
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Howard Schultz (Audio interview and transcript), 2018
Description
An account of the resource
Howard Schultz was born in Douglas, Michigan in 1935. Howard recalls growing up during wartime on the lakeshore.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Gollannek, Eric (Interviewer)
Stevens, Meghann (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Allegan County (Mich.)
Oral history
Audio recordings
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Documenting the Histories of Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas, Kutsche Office of Local History
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Relation
A related resource
Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Sound
Text
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/199645c64d6c68bd139cf213152a7f16.mp3
6ea606a2e279e6618e590ade368d4f01
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8ae48e5fe68f3144248883e07f639f87.pdf
f72e5d6008d176eee19b2b457b2f9ffc
PDF Text
Text
Travis Randolph- Interview by Ted Reyda
Date not mentioned
Transcriptionist’s note: TR= Ted Reyda. T= Travis Randolph
0:00 shuffles as mic is set up
0:03
T: It’s going to work in just a second? Where do you see the—ok. Right there. Ok. Cool.
0:09 TR: Uh, this is Ted Reyda, and I’m about to, uh, interview Travis Randolph, uh, and we
are at the old school house in Douglas, MI, and, uh, we can start any time you’d like, Travis.
0:25
T: Are you going to ask me questions?
0:28
TR: No. Unless you want
0:30
T: Oh. I thought you were going to be asking these questions
0:32
TR: I, I don’t have to
0:33
T: Oh.
0:34 TR: But, basically, uh, it’s your thoughts on the 50’s, 60’s, and 70’s. Now I know you
were here earlier than that. Your family’s been here for quite some time, but
0:43 T: Well, they, you know it was funny, I was thinking about it, obviously. Getting
prepared, and there were, I, I really have (pause) three lives here. Something like that, because
you know my grand parents, um, on the Randolph side were here. And my grandparent, my
grand, I never knew my grandmother. Sylvia’s mother
1:14
TR: Mmhm. The other side
1:15 T: But my grandfather, Sylvia’s father, had the big house at Silver Lake. So I had
Sylvia’s father with Silver lake, and my father’s parents were on Holland Street. So when I was
young, you know, up until 49 when my parents, my father’s parents died I, we would come. I
was born in 43, so I was you know, little. And we’d spend time here, and then time there, and
then time here, and then time there. You know, so it was back and forth, and back and forth, um,
my, my mother’s father died in 54, five years later, so we really didn’t come from the time I was
ten until the time I was, you know, from 54 until 61 we really weren’t here. That sort of thing.
Before that we were, and it was just, my memories are just childhood memories um, (pause) we,
uh, when we came back, it was essentially when we, my dad was transferred from Walkagon to
Joliet, and it, it was so much simpler to get here from Joliet then from Walkagon that we started
coming. And that was in 61. And its, how old was I then? Eighteen. Seventeen (throat clear) at
that time. And then it was just a two hour and ten-minute drive. You’d jump in the car, and you
were here in a couple hours. Um, and, uh, the um, so my memories summer time memories in
that time were from 61, until, uh, you know uh, 67 when we moved here full time. And
�3:25
TR: And here being where?
3:27
T: Saugatuck
3:28
TR: Yes, what address and
3:29
T: Oh, when we, you mean
3:32
TR: Yeah, the place
3:33 T: The place? We were, you know, the family home we call it the family pyramid, up, up
on Holland Street, 996 Holland Street. Which was, which was the Van Lewen (?) House, which
are, the two story part came from Singapore and was moved up in 1873, 74 winter. Um, the first
three Van Lewen kids were born in Singapore, and the other six were born in Saugatuck. After
1873, 74. It was my grandmother, my grandmother might have been the first one born here.
Come to think of it. Anyway, um, the um, so we spent the summers here, but you know, as I said
my mother’s father had died, had passed away in 1954. And so, uh, we were here in 61, pretty
much full time on the weekends. You know. On and off. Um, and in fact I spent the summer of
61 here, painting the house. Get, because nobody had been here, my, my father’s brother had
moved to Los Angeles, with his family. My mother’s sister had moved to Los Angeles with her
family. My mother’s sister had moved to San Diego, and we were the only ones left in the
Midwest. Everyone else was on the West Coast. And so we really didn’t spend much time here.
But it was only two hours away, after we moved to Joliet, IL, then it was, wed come up every
weekend. We had the boat here that sort of a thing.
5:26
TR: Yeah, what sort of boat was it?
5:27
T: It was, the old 210
5:28
TR: Ok
5:30 T: 30 ft, one designer. Which we originally kept up in Chessix, but we eventually moved
it down and anchored it in the river.
5:37
TR: There, there were
5:38
T: When they retired in 68
5:40 TR: There were a number of structures. Did you own the structures that were round to
the river? There was one torn down.
5:45
T: We bought that
5:46
TR: Ok.
5:48
T: And tore that down.
�5:49
TR: But you lived in one right on, uh,
5:52
T: On Holland Street. Right. The one on
5:55
TR: Did they, did you rent out the others?
5:57
T: Well, we didn’t own the other ones
5:58
TR: Oh.
5:59 T: Uh, you know, when it was all said and done, yeah, all the people that thought they
owned, uh property to the river discovered around, in the early 19, early 1900’s that they didn’t
own property to the river, to the water, and, uh, that property was quick claimed away by a
Chicago attorney and then sold off as cottages. And that’s how those cottages got in there.
6:30
TR: Ok. Ok.
6:32
T: On the back side of
6:33
TR: What year did you claim those, or buy those
6:35 T: Well let’s see, we, we, we bought the one (pause) must have been near around 65.
Somewhere in there, it came up. It was, it was really expensive. I remember that. It was (laugh)
$6500
6:50
TR: (laugh) You don’t get a garage for that
6:55
T: On the water! And then we, and then Mom bought the other one
7:01
TR: Yeah
7:01
T: From Marcelle Brook. After Marcelle passed away.
7:08
TR: And this point, from you said 65. You were about to go to college
7:10
T: Well, 61 I went to college
7:12
TR: Yeah. Oh. That’s right. Yeah.
7:14
T: In 61. So what’d I say? 61. Summer of 60 I spent here.
7:18
TR: Ok. Uh,
7:20 T: And then 60 I was, because I transferred high schools when we transferred from
Walkgeon to Joliet. I transferred high schools and that was half way through Junior year.
�7:28
TR: And you went to college, uh, yeah.
7:29 T: It was over a, the Winter, the Winter Break. Spent the summer here, summer of 1960.
Then went to Michigan, in uh, in Ann Arbor, and uh, my folks were transferred in 62. Two, you
know, when I was in the middle of my sophomore year. They were transferred to New Jersey.
And it was at that point in time where I decided that it was economically and realistically more
convenient to stop being an Illinois resident, and that rather than becoming a New Jersey resident
I became
8:05
TR: Helps tuition wise
8:06
T: A Michigan resident. Yes. But the tuition was better, all the tuition was $490
8:15
TR: Yeah, different
8:17
T: In state back then. Just 1300 out of state I think
8:20
TR: And you were playing football for a while
8:22
T: Well, momentarily, yeah
8:25
TR: Momentarily
8:25
T: Until I was injured (laugh)
8:27 TR: I don’t know if you want to make a comment. Sylvia did, Travis’ mother about
bringing some of the fraternity brothers here, for gatherings
8:35 T: Oh, we had lots of, lots of hoo-ha. You know, some of my memories would, would be
from going college which was in September 1961, running through 61 in, and those were, that
was the wild years. The, the early to mid 60’s
8:54
TR: The motorcycle gangs
8:56
T: The motorcycle gangs, the, uh,
8:58
TR: Concert time too?
9:00
T: Concert time was at the beginning of that. I think the first jazz concert was 1959
9:05
TR: Did you attend that?
9:06
one
T: Or 60. That’s what I wondered. I gave Ken a poster for, I had a poster for the second
�9:10
TR: Hopefully
9:12
T: So it’s in the collection somewhere
9:13
TR: Hopefully. Did you attend that concert?
9:16 T: No. But I did watch as my mother described it, it was raining out, um, at
Pottawattamie beach and Goshern Lake. And everybody was coming in to catch the bus after it
was over. We were having Sunday dinner in the dining room. And we looked out on Holland
Street and Mother said “it looks just like the confederates going home after the Civil War” (laugh
9:42
TR: (laugh) oh yeah
9:48 T: But it was, um, you know crazy things that happen. The memories are, um, I’m trying
to think of what year it was. Somewhere in there. These are all, these are all fragments. I’m not
sure of the chronological order is going to be. Um. there was one summer. I came up after, after
classes ended, and it was time to find a job for the summer. And I kind of hung, you know
looked around town to see what way going on and of course Tom Johnson had the Crow Bar.
Uh, at Coral Gables, and, uh, his manager was Frank Boggart. And I got talking with Frank, and
Frank said, “Why don’t you come and bus glasses?” So, and this was, this was before lunch. You
know work in the bar. Be a, be a bus boy in the bar. And I said ok. You know. I can do that. And
I left after making that date. And somebody said “What are you doing this summer” And I said”
“Well I was just talking with Frank” and they said “Why don’t you go and see Harv Buscer? He
needs someone to work construction for something they have, some project they have over in
Douglas.” So I looked up Harv Buscar, and Harv had just gotten the contract to build the first
new building in 20 years probably over at, at that time was Chase manufacturing which is the
Hayworth, Hayworth plant. And I believe it was the north building, it was, it was a great big, you
know, it was a big building. And it turns out that Chase had just gotten the contract, I think this
was 1964 or 65. Somewhere in there. They had just gotten the contract too for the dye cast, uh
headlight bezels for this new model they, Ford had introduced called the Mustang. [laugh]
11:46 TR: Oh boy!
11:47 T: And they had, they had to go, to jump quickly and build, uh, a building to put the dye
cast machine in that they needed to make the bezels and polish and everything like that, so. Let’s
see, I think it was Harv, Harv was there doing masonry. And then he had another mason. And I
was the guy who mixed the mortar and pitched the blocks
12:10 TR: By hand?
12:12 T: by hand
12:13 TR: Didn’t work with a machine
12:14 T: Well, they had a, you had a machine to mix the mortar, but you had to shovel
everything into it. And then you had to pitch blocks, and so we
�12:20 TR: Oh dear.
12:20 T: kept getting gloves from, from Chase. The guys, the folks that did the polishing on the
dye cast parts? All wore gloves. And so we’d get gloves to save our skin. And so we’d just pitch
blocks and that’s, that’s what the summer was. I ended up taking that job because it paid twice as
much as Frank did to bus dishes and glasses
12:40 TR: Did you have a car?
12:42 T: Oh yeah.
12:45 TR: Ok
12:46 T: I had my, uh, my old Volkswagen. And everybody had a Volkswagen then, right?
12:50 TR: Yeah. Well, I didn’t [laugh]
12:54 T: Well, in fact at that point in time I counted them up in our family. I think we had
seven. [laugh]
13:01 TR: The, uh, yeah. At what point did your parents come permanently?
13:05 T: They retired, um, in July of 68.
13:10 TR: Ok.
13:13 T: And Sandra and I moved up in June from Ann Arbor
13:15 TR: You didn’t mention that Sandra’s connection
13:16 T: What?
13:18 TR: Uh, you were engaged or married?
13:20 T: Oh. When did we get married? Let’s see. 66.
13:25 TR: Ok.
13:28 T: We got married in the summer of 66. Summer?
13:29 TR: And you brought her a few times to the area so she could see it?
13:30 T: Summer. Yeah. Yeah. She comes to the area and, uh, the, um, let’s see, the folks
retired in 60, 68. We bought the Elm Hotel which is what
�13:45 TR: Ok. Now being you and Sandra. Uh huh
13:47 T: Sandra and I, Sandra and I. But you know when, when Sandra and I came up in June
of 67 when I graduated. And I was working for Herman Miller and commuting from Ann Arbor
back and forth three days a week. Um, but what, so we lived in the house in 996 Holland Street.
And then the folks retired and they moved in, so all folks of us where in the house in Holland
Street. And we got along just fine. And then we ended up buying the Elm’s Hotel. 136 Butler,
which is right, it’s no longer the Elm’s Hotel, obviously. It’s, uh,
14:30 TR: Joyce Peder
14:41 T: Joyce Peder bought it, auction, and then they bought it and it became something else
and that’s where it ended up, which leaves, you know, that’s another crazy story, of, um, of the
summer time. Let’s see. We were there from 69 to 73. And one of those summers. Right in the
middle of summer. It was, you know, July, August. Somewhere in there. It was a beautiful night
and we were sitting on the front step. Right on the sidewalk, just watching people wander up and
down. It must have been 10:30, 11:00, 11:30. Something like that. And there was one fellow and
another fellow. One fellow was obviously very drunk. The other fellow was obviously holding
him up. They were working their way north on Butler street side walk on our side of the street,
the west side. And the, right out in the street there was a Volkswagen bus, mini bus parked with
some, you know that was the hippie time
15:45 TR: Yup
15:46 T: And in fact we rented to a head shop down stairs, which was very controversial in the
city. The old, with the elders. And in fact, it was, they said, at one time they said “you should not
rent to them.” And we said “Are they breaking a law?” They, we, they said “We don’t know.”
And I said “Well if you want to arrest them, we’ll stop renting to them.”
16:08 TR: Yeah
16:09 T: [laugh] It’s real simple. And until they, until you can, you know, prove that they’re
doing something, you know, it’s not practical or legal for us to not rent to them. So anyway, so
the head shop though bus was right out in front of the head shop. The guys were walking along.
And all of a sudden the other guy came from the other end. They were right in front of us. And
they all turned and went to the bus and grabbed the two or three guys, you know, up against the
bus, hand cuffs.
16:40 TR: Woah, what was
16:40 T: It was a drug bust!
16:41 TR: Oh my gosh!
16:42 T: The guy wasn’t drunk at all [laugh]
�16:43 TR: Oh he was just pretending
16:45 T: He was just pretending.
16:48 TR: Ah, the um, did you later you
16:51 T: So I think that was probably the summer of 64. Somewhere in there
16:54 TR: And some point you did shop there though
16:55 T: No
16:56 TR: No you didn’t?
16:58 T: Oh yes we did, come to think of it. We, that’s when we the, that’s when we converted
the porch on the north side, which I don’t think I’d be able to identify now, what do, what did we
call it? Celebrate was the name of the shop. Sandra, Sandra had decided to take a year off from
teaching. So she took a year off and after that she decided not to, not to go back, and we opened
the shop it was probably 6—[sigh]
17:38 TR: Obviously before you went to Europe.
17:39 T: 69, well, let’s see, we sold the, we sold the building to Joyce in 73, and went to
Europe in 73, so uh, that was probably 71. Something like that. And we had Celebrate, and, uh,
in fact I was still working with Herman Miller and, uh, I had, we had a source or, supplier down
in Columbus, IN. And I would go down to Columbus, and then, on the way back one, one day, I
took a tour in Brown County and stopped in, uh, Nashville, IN. And discovered a place called
grasshopper flats. These folks were jewelers, and I bought uh, a whole bunch of whole sale
jewelry and brought it back for our first inventory. And we just went on from there. And then I
became a jeweler
18:35 TR: Did not know that.
18:39 T: Yup. And it was, we had Marsha, Marsha Perry. Had sculptures and jewelry, and then
we got some paintings from some folks. And of course Sylvia’s stuff, and then it just sort of took
off and went. And we ran that until we sold the building and closed things up, and
18:56 TR: Yeah. I remember one amusing story of a renter upstairs and that always wore a
kimono or something like that
19:04 T: Well that was down stairs
19:05 TR: Oh, ok
19:06 T: They were, the fellow that owned the building that we bought it from was Frank Van
Analak (?) who had an antique shop across the street. Called Van Analak’s Antiques. And let’s
�see what else was across the street. Um. The shop. I can’t think what the name of it is now.
Anyway, and we bought the building from Frank. And he had a compatriot. A partner named
George. And they lived downstairs and Sandra and I lived upstairs. And what was upstairs was
eight hotel rooms which we gutted and turned into a real nice apartment. And George and Frank
lived downstairs, and George had this very short kimono, silk kimono with great huge gold,
goldfish and a quart goblet of beer and a cigarette holder. [laugh] He was, he was quite a fellow
20:08 TR: Yeah. And at what point did you um, then go to Europe?
20:15 T: Um, that was in 73. And, and that was, we went through the process. We sold the
building to Joyce, and um, we had sort of, um, we’d be ready to, uh, because Sandra’s, Sandra’s
father is from Denmark. Immigrated from Denmark, and she has lots of family in Denmark, and
had gone back and forth a number of times. And so we were going to go and settle in Denmark,
and unfortunately we arrived on the day of the Yom Kippur War
20:45 TR: Oh dear. Yeah
20:50 T: Um, which led to the oil embargo
20:55 TR: Became expensive
20:56 T: And not only became expensive, it became impossible to get.
21:00 TR: Yeah
21:01 T: And uh, the Europeans essentially went on a war, you know, World War Two footing
as far as no hot water. Things that turned the lights off. That sort of thing. And it was, Sandra’s
grandmother, we, we spent time with Sandra’s grandmother in Copenhagen. And she said it was
just like World War Two.
21:20 TR: Oh boy
21:22 T: You know no different. No different at all.
21:25 TR: I was just thinking, prior to your sailing experiences on Lake Michigan I remember
that when you were much younger that thought about sailing from Kenosha over to
21:35 T: Well we, that was the summer of 1960. The first summer we, no. Yes. It was the
summer of 1960, the year we painted the house a friend of mine from Walkagen came and we
spent the summer together in Saugatuck painting the house and working on the boat and half way
through summer we, you know, a couple of irrational kids [laugh] went out sailing and, uh, said
“Let’s go across the lake.” And we essentially went across the lake with a couple of apples and a
radio
22:15 TR: And the radio was for what reason?
�22:18 T: Direction finder. We could rotate the radio and null in and we knew that when we lost
the signal we were aimed right at the tower, and we knew what the tower was. So we sailed
across. We were going to go to Walkegon, but the weather changed and we ended up going to
Kenosha, and stayed there overnight, and then sailed down from Kenosha to Walkegon and spent
a few days in Walkegon and then
22:45 TR: What was your family’s uh, reaction to that
22:49 T: Well they were speechless so to speak. And then we sailed down to uh, Chicago. This
was when, back then, they had a Chicago Saugatuck race. And so we sailed down to Chicago and
picked my dad up in Chicago. And he brought the compass. It was handy. It wouldn’t, you know,
the radio was not dependable enough.
23:10 TR: Batteries and things yeah.
22:13 T: So he brought the compass, and then we sailed back from Chicago to Saugatuck. And
had lots of fun
23:20 TR: Oh yes, uh, adventures, adventures of youth, uh. What’s the earliest, age was, do you
think that you were ever here?
23:30 T: Well. As I said, I, you know. Came as a baby
23:37 TR: From both sides. That’s what I thought
23:38 T: as a baby. Uh, on both sides. You know, we came a lot. We came fairly. We came for
a couple weeks every summer from as early as I can remember until 1949. My grandmother died
in, gee, I think it was April of 49. And, uh, she had a series of strokes. And I never saw her out of
bed
24:04 TR: Wow. That’s an interesting memory, that’s wow.
24:07 T: Yeah. I never saw her saw her out of bed. She was always in the front room in bed.
And, uh, the antiseptic order.
24:15 TR: Yes
24:16 T: Was intense. But that was, that was, you know, an unfortunate phenomenon. And, uh,
my grandfather, her husband, um, Loring Randolph, um, died I think it was in July of 49.
Apparently some folks accused, said it was food poisoning, and others said he just was alone and
didn’t have the need to go on.
24:45 TR: Yes. Alone. All that. Oh. When you came with your, some of your fraternity
brothers, what, what things did you do?
24:53 T: Well, let’s see
�24:54 TR: You had the sailboat here
24:54 T: We had the sailboat here
24:57 TR: That only took so many people
24:58 T: But you know, we didn’t have that many fraternity brothers, um that were a part of the
gang. We used to do things like drink.
25:07 TR: Uh huh. Water? [laugh]
25:08 T: [laugh] Um. And we used to have Grand Prix racing.
25:10 TR: With the sailboats or with cars?
25:14 T: No, with my Volkswagen from the front yard into the backyard and the backyard into
the front yard.
25:20 TR: Oh my gosh!
25:22 T: [laugh]
25:23 TR: There was a cottage there so you wouldn’t have gone in the river
25:27 T: We wouldn’t have gone into the river. But we, we used to race the Volkswagen out of
the front yard and into the front yard. Um, one summer, one night I recall, um, somebody
brought fireworks, and we were shooting them off in the house. And the police came to the front
door and said “We’ve heard reports of shots” and I stood there at the front door, the screen door,
and I said “No, I haven’t, we haven’t heard any shots.” And the wind was out of the west like it
typically is. And of course the fire cracker smoke was going out through the screen from around
me and around the police officer [laugh]
26:14 TR: And what police officer was it?
26:15 T: Oh, I don’t know. It wasn’t Lyle.
26:16 TR: Ok. It wasn’t Lyle
26:18 T: It wasn’t Lyle. It was, it was, one of the summer fellows.
26:20 TR: Yeah. There was the summer things so they, so you would cook there, or go to
restaurants
26:25 T: We’d, we’d cook. Oh! Best hamburgers in the world were at the Redwood.
�26:30 TR: Redwood? Where was that located?
26:32 T: The Redwood is, uh, was a drive in that was over in Douglas, um, what was the, the,
she just died. The gal who owned it, um, cross, the, it was across the east side of the street from
Chase from Hayworth
26:45 TR: Ok. Yeah. Oh yeah
26:47 T: Um, but right in back. Way in back. In fact I was looking at it, at it, at it, uh, a couple
of days ago on Google Earth, and you can see in, where the canopy parking spots
27:04 TR: Oh, so it was a drive in type thing? Oh wow
27:06 T: Yeah, but they had they had really, really good hamburgers. I used to eat the
hamburgers a lot
27:15 TR: Did you ever go to the Rootbeer, uh
27:17 T: Oh yes. Nicki’s!
27:18 TR: Nicki!
27:19 T: Nicki used to run the food service and Nicki used to work ther
27:20 TR: Yes, and Nicki was an attraction
27:24 T: And we, we, we’d get foot longs and hot dogs. Or foot longs and rootbeer, and had
great fun
27:34 TR: What, I, I heard was that she was also the some of the joy was going there because
she was very much voluptuous young lady
27:40 T: She was a draw. She was a draw [laugh]
27:42 TR: Yes. Right. Um, the, um, did you go to the beach? Or anything like that?
27:50 T: Oh, sure, we’d go to the beach. What else did we do?
27:53 TR: They, they were, I
27:58 T: We just, we just had endless parties
28:02 TR: Ah, and that
28:04 T: That was ,that was pretty much it was, the when you were here it was an endless party
�28:08 TR: Right. Until you got engaged and got married and things changed
28:13 T: Then things changed. Hopefully. They’re supposed to, right?
28:18 TR: Yeah. The, um, the, most of the people that partied with you were from Ann Arbor,
not the, you know, did you get to know the local people also your age?
28:25 T: Well Pete, uh, Peter Curtis, who was a bar tender. You know the whole Curtis clan,
Pete was a resident, local resident, but he had cousins that were, uh, Curtis’s from St. Louis.
Then they all lived by Clear Cove.
28:40 TR: Yeah, did
28:43 T: And so there was there was that bunch and the Collins, Collins’s, and
28:48 TR: The Pavilion was still there
28:52 T: The Pavilion burned down Friday, May 6, 1960.
28:55 TR: Ok.
28:55 T: And we were driving up from Joliet. And we could see the light in the sky, um, just
north of South Haven.
29:04 TR: Woah.
29:05 T: And the closer we got the brighter it got. And that was just you know, after sun set
29:14 TR: Wow, what, well
29:15 T: In May, so that was
29:18 TR: Brightest spot on the lake and it went out that way.
29:20 T: And, I, it was, it was an amazing thing. It, there was, you know, the one, it’s a shame
we never got the chance to get an oral history from my dad
29:31 TR: Yeah
29:32 T: Because he was, uh, let’s see, the Pavilion was built in what? 1909?
29:38 TR: Yes. I think
29:38 T: Something like that. And he worked, he was born in 1903. Yes. 1903. And he and
Dode Wilson used to do the electrical maintenance there when he was a kid. So that would have
�been the teens. Somewhere in there. Late teens. And he would talk about about he used to climb
up the arches and change the light bulbs [laugh]
30:07 TR: Oh boy. Oh boy. The uh, if you cooked at home, where were the grocery stores?
30:10 T: Oh. Fen, where was it?
30:15 TR: In Douglas or downtown Saugatuck?
30:19 T: In Douglas, in Douglas, it was, um was it Van Harten’s? Or was that, was that
Fennville?
30:25 TR: I’ve never heard of it.
30:28 T: It was in Douglas on the north side of the street. Where, where they had the fire.
Across from, right across the street from, uh, the ballpark
30:40 TR: So there wasn’t a super valloo or anything like that
30:42 T: Oh no, no, that wasn’t there. There was nothing there then
30:45 TR: But Saugatuck didn’t have any little groceries? Or anything?
30:48 T: At that time?
30:50 TR: Yeah. No?
30:50 T: I don’t recall any. There might of, uh, you know there might have been. I don’t think
so, Ted. I don’t think so. That seems hard to believe, but the middle of the block, where Funks
was, was Funks. And I think that was a grocery originally. And then on the corner the uh, where
Larry is Pumpernickels was a grocery. But that was not a grocery then I don’t think
31:20 TR: I’ll be darned.
31:21 T: I don’t, you know, one of things that was really nice, the bakery in Douglas. There
was a Douglas bakery that was on the north side of the street. Um, you know, right across from
everyday people and then down a couple of doors. It’s probably right about where Wild Dog is
now. Somewhere in there. They used to have
31:42 TR: So it was breads and doughnuts and sweets?
31:45 T: They had an almond coffee cake
31:50 TR: Oh boy
�31:51 T: That every Sunday everybody in the township would stop and get an almond coffee
cake and go home and have breakfast with the almond coffee cake. It was out of this world
32:03 TR: Ah. The, uh, when your mother moved here, of course she attended the Christian
Science church. Did she make you go or anything like that?
32:10 T: No. No
32:11 TR: No? She was fine with it
32:14 T: Not really. It was always uh, you know my father was brought up in the church,
Christian Science church
32:22 TR: I did not know that
32:25 T: The well, the Randolph’s. The Fitz Randolph’s had, had a, the ones that came from
England in the 1600’s, they, uh, ended up being the first generation ended up, they uh, founding
the seventh day Baptist church in North America. Which was just beginning in England. So there
was this fairly strong Baptist hook in the family, um, but my father and his parents were
Christian Scientists. In fact, my parents met at the Christian Science Church in college. That’s
where, that’s where they met, going to the Christian Science Church
33:12 TR: And did, was there one existing in Saugatuck at that time, or was it in Fennville?
33:18 T: No, it was in Saugatuck
33:19 TR: Saugatuck, ok.
33:20 T: It was, it was, I think the church that’s on the village green on the south, uh, I, uh, was
built in the 20’s.
33:32 TR: I think yes
33:33 T: Something like that.
33:34 TR: The, uh, whole, you know, uh, gentrifying, I guess term, of making it look more
fashionable. Cleaned up the city hall and all that. But do you remember when, next to the
Christian Science, the hotel Casa Blanca burned.
33:50 T: mm hm.
33:53 TR: So, I know Slyvia
33:54 T: I was, I was at work in Zealand
33:57 TR: At the bar. Oh. In Zealand, oh! Herman Miller. Ok
�33:59 T: Yeah. That was, that was, oh.
34:00 TR: Well I know Sylvia mentioned that
34:09 T: It was 67 or 68. Somewhere, or 66, 66, or 68. Somewhere, somewhere right in there
because I got to work and somebody, somebody was, or I was at work and somebody said “Gee
there’s a hotel burning in Saugatuck.” And I said, because we had a hotel [laugh] so I quick got
on the phone. They said “No, no. It’s not the Elms. It’s the, uh, the Casa Blanca.” [clear throat]
34:34 TR: And Sylvia, as I remember, said they were splashing water on the Christian Science
and saying whatever they had to say because the walls were really hot
34:42 T: Yeah the walls were, the walls were hot. Yeah. The, um, the um, that’s in, Saugatuck
has been lucky. God! What luck! To go through what this series of fires between, and I’m sure
there’s others that I don’t know about because I hadn’t been there that long, but you know there
was a hotel down, there was a hotel down, a wooden hotel down where Ship n’ shore is now. I
think that burned, and the city didn’t burn
35:10 TR: Quite possibly. Yeah
35:14 T: There was, oh, there was the Pavilion, and the city didn’t burn
35:19 TR: Some cottages did across the river, yeah. I know
35:24 T: There was the Casa Blanca. And the house next door, but the city didn’t go. And there
was the house behind the house behind the Elms that we owned that burned. On Halloween. And
the city didn’t go
35:42 TR: I guess it’s meant to be.
35:45 T: We’ve had a combination of good firemen and good luck that the city and all of its
wooden buildings are still here.
35:53 TR: Do you remember the fruit growers’ bank?
35:56 T: Of course
35:58 TR: They, they tore it down.
35:59 T: They tore it, in fact I got a lot of brick. That’s where all the paving bricks when they,
then
36:03 TR: I know those bricks.
�36:08 T: When they tore it down I got a whole bunch of bricks and tore all the mortar off them
and did all the paving for the Elm’s hotel. Cause it was right there on the corner where the rose,
rose garden is.
36:18 TR: Yes. Just across the street more or less
36:20 T: Yeah. Just across the street. So I’d take the wheel barrow over there and pick up
bricks and bring them
36:27 TR: The, um, the , what year was the, did the buyer tear down the upper stories of the
hotel?
36:32 T: It was early. It was fairly early I want to say it was, maybe, you know, maybe 63, 4
somewhere
36:40 TR: Yeah. Because I have a picture that just shows the side of it and cars around it
seemed to be early 60’s yeah. So
36:48 T: Yeah. It was somewhere in there.
36:52 TR: Which, I guess, it just wasn’t economical to
36:55 T: Well, you know my grandmother, my grandfather, Ben Lewen Martinez, who was the
one who lived who worked at Singapore was a sawyer in the mill. One of the mills. And they
moved the house up on the ice winter of 73, 74, to where it is now on Holland Street
37:15 TR: 18
37:17 T: 1873, yeah. 73, 74. And added on to it within a couple of years because they had this
family that was growing like Topsy. He had, he had farms out around the area. In fact, he had
one on what’s the street that runs to the Dug way? Or runs to the entrance to the
37:40 TR: Oh it’s the Dugout road?
37:42 T: No, it’s not the Dugout road, but is that 136th that runs by the Pumphouse gym and
back towards Dennis’ entry, driveway entry?
37:52 TR: Yeah.
37:53 T: I think it’s 136th. Um, avenue. Avenue. In Allegan County. Um. He had a couple
farms out there.
38:08 TR: And growing produce or whatever
38:08 T: I don’t know what he grew, but yeah, he must have grown produce or something. He
was kicked by a mule and got blood poisoning. And died at age 50
�38:20 TR: Oh boy
38:21 T: So that left, you know, that left his wife Margaret Boss. Just as an aside, there was,
there was a mass wedding in mid December. I think it was December 15th 1868 where there,
there were numerous young couples who got married. All Dutch. You know
38:48 TR: More economical maybe? [laugh]
38:50 T: Well, well it was, the Civil War was over. You know. So it was time to get on with
everything with life. Etc. etc. Etc. And, uh, they had, there was this mass’ wedding of, and one of
one of those couples was Martinez Van Lewuen, who at that time lived at Singapore, and
Margaret Boss who was from Zealand. And they got married and moved into a company house
in Singapore and started their family, which you know. So they got married in December 68. The
house was moved in 74, call it that way, so it’s five years or so. Something like that. And they
already had three kids in Singapore, and the house, and he came over in like 1854. Let’s see he
came over in 1864, and he was 10 years old or something like that. So he may have been, so
anyway, he, he, he, he, he was killed got blood poisoning from the injury with the mule and died
and left her with 9 kids and she, Margaret Boss, um, did the laundry in the Butler hotel
40:07 TR: Woah. Yeah?
40:10 T: She was, she that was the job she had because she couldn’t farm
40:14 TR: Support, yeah
40:15 T: And she, and, uh, so she worked, worked all the linens in the Butler
40:20 TR: So all those people. Yeah.
40:21 T: All those people. Stories that are gone
40:26 TR: I don’t know if you want to mention because I don’t know if you were joking or not
about the house on Holland Street when you changed walls and things that there seemed to be
some of the relatives telling you things
40:40 T: [laugh] No, I clearly remember that, but you know, I suppose you can be crazy.
40:48 TR: No
40:48 T: One day I woke up and was laying there in bed all of a sudden I heard this voice. And
I looked out into the into the other room. And there was my grandfather. And he said “I want you
to stop using the trapdoor in the kitchen to get into the basement and reopen the outside
entrance.” And I immediately got up and opened the outside entrance. And that was the end of it.
I’ve never seen him again
�41:17 TR: That was, who knows why
41:18 T: Who knows why
41:19 TR: The messenger was there
41:21 T: Yeah the message was there. And apparently he wasn’t comfortable with that.
41:28 TR: So that
41:29 T: entry. He liked the outside entry
41:31 TR: property, the property on Holland Street was empty. You didn’t have to tear
anything down to, when you brought the house from Singapore?
41:38 T: Well there was nothing there. It was vacant property
41:39 TR: Oh there was nothing there. But what the cottages on the river behind it
41:44 T: They weren’t built for another 40 years
41:45 TR Oh, it was after when you guys were, ok
41:47 T: They moved the house in the 1870’s and the cottages along the river weren’t built
until the 1910’s and 20’s
41:51 TR: That’s what I thought, yeah
41:53 T: So there was nothing there. You know, it was, it was empty, there was, and in fact it
was really empty because there were no trees.
42:06 TR: Really?
42:07 T: They cut everything down to ship back and rebuild Chicago
42:10 TR: But that, wasn’t the stable
42:14 T: Chicago, the Chicago fire was October 8 and 9 1871, which happened to be, it wasn’t
just Chicago. The Petshigo fire was the same day. Southern Michigan burned from Manistee all
the way to the thumb.
42:28 TR: Yeah. Holland. Yeah
42:28 T: All the way across. The Holland fire. If you look at there, I was, there
�42:32 TR: We were saved I guess by the water. Surrounded by so much water who knows?
42:38 T: Who knows?
42:39 TR: Fate. Whatever. Lucked out
42:40 T: Just, who knows. We lucked out yeah, but there was there was an incredible there was
a huge drought going on for a couple of years. And there was this tremendous low pressure area
that developed. It ran from San Diego to, to um, Toronto.
42:58 TR: Yeah. Dry as a grave
43:02 T: Just a great counter clockwise circulation that accelerated and accelerated and
accelerated. And the whole thing started out a couple days before that. Before the 8th. It started
out as prairie fires. In Kansas. And the prairie fires
43:18 TR: By lightening or something most likely
43:20 T: Probably. Or spontaneous whatever. But it all, everything moved toward Chicago.
And of course the prairie ends right there, right there at the western limits, and just went on
through. But of course that was the era of building railroads and you know when you got into the
woods like we had in Michigan or we had in Wisconsin, they, they were making ties and tressel
beams. And all they’d do is cut a tree down, top it off, take the heads off
43:52 TR: Off of, yeah
43:53 T: and leave a stack of trash the log would leave and just turn into
43:57 TR: Yeah. It was just waiting. Tragedy
43:58 T: Just, you know 2500 people died in the Petshigo fire
44:04 TR: I know. Worse than Chicago or anywhere else
44:05 T: Oh yeah. It was crazy
44:07 TR: They rarely talk about that
44:07 T: So that was October of 71. Well the next thing was next, the following spring was,
you know, everybody went out and started logging and making shingles and 2X4’s, well, they
didn’t have 2X4’s. But shingles and studs. 2X4’s weren’t invented until 1920. [cough] and the
shipped them back to Chicago, well by 1973 the white pines were gone in southern Michigan.
They closed the mills and the mills, the main mill, that was in Singapore
44:38 TR: went up
�44:42 T: Went up to, uh, the Northside of the strait. What is, what is that?
44:44 TR: St. Ignace yeah.
44:45 T: St Ignace! St. Ignace.
44:46 TR: But at some point too they were stripping all the hemlock bark for the tanneries. I
understand
44:52 T: Yes. That’s true too. So white pine went to construction and hemlock went to
44:58 TR: It’s no wonder why Mt. Baldhead started moving
45:00 T: Exactly
45:03 TR: And they feared it was going to dam the river and flood the town
45:04 T: yeah. Well, you know the interesting one was the family always used to talk about
going and looking for Indian Beads. We called them Indian Beads, because they were Indian
Beads but what they were was fish vertebrae. That would show up and you know fish would
wash up on the beach and then eventually, well there was a huge sand dune just on the west side
of the basin.
45:34 TR: Yes because Sylvia once, your mother once showed me pictures, I said “I do not
recognize”
45:38 T: It’s all gone
45:41 TR: Yeah. And it’s, I, I
45:43 T: It blew away. There was a huge sand dune there and, and of course when they put the
entry in I think they straightened out instead of going
45:54 TR: Yeah. Turn of the century
45:55 T: to the oxbow and out where the pilings are down at the beach, they uh, I think they put
that in in 1907. Somewhere in there
46:04 TR: It was just at the turn of the century. Yeah. And that amazed how that filled in and
blocked that, that other channel. Like in a couple of winters
46:15 T: Well, it also depends on what the lake level is. Because I’ve gone in there with
outboard from the oxbow in the river.
46:24 TR: I’ve we’ve went in with a canoe one time when it was high
�46:25 T: Canoe. Canoe. I went in with an outboard once.
46:30 TR: Did you always have stairs down to the river, well, you didn’t own the property
46:32 T: of some sort. We didn’t own the property but
46:36 TR: They let you repairing rights or whatever
46:38 T: Well people are always claimed they had a, a, you know, and easement, but when it
was all said and done there was no easement. But, uh we always used to go down there and come
and go.
46:52 TR: Of, of the families now, how many of them can you say some relatives still live in
the area? Obviously
46:59 T: Of, uh, what families? My family?
47:03 TR: Your, your, your family no. But of that of that area of the 50’s and the 60’s, how
many families are still here do you think? Of some relatives that have stayed? The Randolph’s
have obviously stayed over yeah.
47:16 T: The Randolph’s are around, yeah.
47:20 TR: Because I’m a new comer
47:22 T: You’re a new comer. Ted, you know a lot of people, there are a lot of people that are
next generation. That, that, that continue and beyond next generation
47:30 TR: Yeah. You look at the cemetery. Yeah. Like the Divines that built my house
47:30 T: And into the third generation.
47:38 TR: You go to the cemeteries and you see all these names and oh wow. I’ve heard that
name. And I wonder if those are still relatives or what. That type of thing.
47:45 T: Mmhm. No that, there are, there are a lot of them here.
47:50 TR: yeah. The uh
47:52 T: Unfortunately, the, you know, some families just came to a halt, of course, but not that
many people moved away. This is an awfully nice place to live [laugh]
48:02 TR: Well, geographically I know. RJ always complained, you know the Kalamazoo lake
is going to silt up and you’re not going to be able to use it. We still have that beautiful lake out
�there, and I don’t know how much you can destroy Lake Michigan. You know. Some people try.
Geographically, it’s a gorgeous area with the parks that we have. Wow. I can’t
48:20 T: The parks the cultural attributes. Terrific
48:28 TR: I’m just amazed at all the buildings in Douglas going on and the con, you know the
condos. Just you know, in Douglas. Just continuous. You know, wow. They, I don’t know how
desirable it is to live in Holland, but we’re so close. You commuted
48:47 T: Oh yeah. It’s only ten minutes away
48:48 TR: You commuted to Herman Miller, and uh, it’s a lot nicer than place in Holland for
sure [laugh]
48:56 T: [laugh]
48:57 TR: And, uh, I, uh, can you think of any other little incidents or whatever
49:08 T: The um, I’m sure it’ll come, it’ll come, there’ll be things that I
49:13 TR: Yeah. Later. What was Sandra’s, your wife’s, uh, your future wife’s uh, impression
of Saugatuck.
49:23 T: Oh she loved it. It was, yeah, you know
49:27 TR: Yeah. You didn’t have to really talk it up or anything like that
49:30 T: Well, she’s a Detroit gal. You know
49:31 TR: Yeah. Suburbs and
49:34 T: And it was
49:35 TR: A bit rural
49:36 T: huh? It was a bit rural. And you know amazingly, what’s incredible now, it’s over. My
daughter was here with her family
49:43 TR: From New York City
49:44 T: From New York. Uh. Just over the fourth. And she said “you know, you forget about
how for a town, or for a community like Douglas and Saugatuck that is technically a very small
community” You know we’re two thousand people
50:07 TR: yes. It’s getting less and less population
�50:09 T: There is an amazing amount of culture here. And there, you just can’t run out of stuff
to do. It’s very difficult. You know. It is a very desirable place to live.
50:25 TR: You’re on the board now of the SCA
50:28 T: Center for the arts. Yeah.
50:30 TR: Yeah. And, uh, I remember I though, how are they going to justify all that. But they
have. Just like the historical society which now is called the history center. How it’s grown. And
it just amazes me. The willingness of people to, to give back to the community, you know. In
some way
50:48 T: Well, you know, and we have this, this, uh. It’s like Chris. Chris, Chris lives here.
Chris is not a resident. Right?
50:55 TR: Mmhmm. That’s the majority of the people
50:58 T: He’s a resident of Palm Springs. I saw the California plate. And there’s so many
people that have this attitude that this is an incredibly nice place to be between May and October.
And it’s so true.
51:20 TR: Yeah. But winters can be interesting if you’re not commuting and things that. The
cross country skiing we’ve done and all that. That stuff, but uh
51:28 T: We just, we just need to get some more young people. More young people and that’s
all. But then of course then the cost of real estate’s that they’re not going to be inside the city.
They’re going to be outside the cities
51:38 TR: Yes. In the township or yes. Prices, just
51:45 T: [laugh]
51:48 TR: Just amazing. Yeah. Uh, do you think that Barret, your son, will stay in the area?
51:52 T: Yeah. Yeah
51:54 TR: He, he’s happy working for Herman Miller like you did, and, you think there’s any
chance he’ll, what do you think he’ll do with the properties. Have there been conversations about
that or will Barret continue on with something, or you don’t know or just?
52:12 T: I, I, I dare say that, well the problem is we’ve got Holland Street, we’ve got River side
Drive, and we’ve got Mason Street. Mason Street is commercial, and Sandra has to decide what
she wants to do with that. Holland Street is the family pyramid and that’s place for anybody that
wants to come and stay, and
52:32 TR: Yeah, but
�52:34 T: I don’t see us selling Riverside Drive and moving to Holland Street. I don’t see that
happening, but I don’t see us selling Holland Street.
52:40 TR: No. No. But what about the works
52:42 T: Oh the works
52:43 TR: and all of that
52:44 T: Oh that’ll get bulldozed someday, and we’ll put up a new place. A studio for an artist
and sell that. Something like that
52:52 TR: Ok. Yeah. Around your
52:54 T: But that’s priceless too because now it’s, now it’s surrounded by conserved land.
52:59 TR: yes. I was going to bring that up. We’ve all hiked through there. That, that’s a
wonderful gift back to the community is that. And that’s why Riverside Drive people are tearing
down houses and building bigger, and I guess better for them. Yeah
53:16 T: [laugh] And of course we’ve got to protect because we bought the most, you know.
We own the, the, what. That chunk and that chunk and that chunk and that chunk.
53:28 TR: Yeah.
53:30 T: And the orchard
53:31 TR: And your neighbors have chunks
53:32 T: And the Mowers have two chunks. So all the orchard and all the way over to Holland
Street is protected now
53:40 TR: When you moved back to, uh, Saugatuck after Europe you had, you bought the
cottage? On Riverside Drive?
53:48 T: Yeah.
53:50 TR: And your plans were to to convert it in somewhere or to build it
53:55 T: Well you know we were looking, we were looking. It was between the house were we
are on Riverside Drive and one over on Lake shore Drive in Douglas.
54:03 TR: Did not know that. Ah
�54:08 T: Yeah. We were trying on the beach. We were trying to decide did we want to be on
the river or on the beach. And we made the big mistake
54:15 TR: Oh.
54:15 T: We didn’t buy both of them [laugh]
54:16 TR: Yes. I can see the river because of the sailboat.
54:20 T: We should have bought both of them.
54:22 TR: Yeah I guess that’s sort of my understanding
54:23 T: Spend the winter on the river and the summer on the beach
54:26 TR: yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, so you, it was a choice of modifying the cottage on
Riverside Drive or tearing it down
54:37 T: Well it, well it was remodel. You know. Addition. Addition. Addition. Addition. And
then you know, it just got to the point where it was just time to. It was officially a remodeling. A
remodeling with a bulldozer. Because we kept a piece of wall and a piece of floor. So it was
officially a remodeling
54:55 TR: Yeah. And until about the, the situation though. Like we had that lunch. Why we
could be that close to the river, and those neighbors saying
55:04 T: Because it needed, you know, it was an existing non-conforming, so the existing
footprint. We had to stay in the footprint, or match the footprint. Which we did
55:15 TR: And so, somebody now could not build that close to the river, so it’s unique
55:19 T: no, because they put it back, you know from before. The setback now from the water
is 75 feet. The previous setback was unstated. It’s just like next to Sylvia, um, in the house, that,
that was a waterfront lot. They hadn’t gotten around to determining what a waterfront lot was in
the zoning. So that lot had a rear set back of ten feet. And the rear line was the water. So that’s
why that house is ten feet from the water. Then they changed it to 25 inside the city of
Saugatuck. So you can’t build closer than 25 feet.
56:00 TR: So you got the unique situation, which is wonderful. The, uh, through the years have
you seen a difference between, uh, the ownership of boat type things being the opposite of
sailboats to powerboats. Have it always been about equal or, or, or what?
56:20 T: Well no, you know before there were powerboats there were nothing but sailboats.
Obviously
�56:28 TR: So there’s fewer and fewer
56:29 T: So there’s fewer sailboats and more you know, but now when the price of gas when
through the roof, everybody bought a hard bottom inflatable. And they learned how to run little
tiny hard bottom inflatables, and now they do that. Of course the personal water craft have gone
through a, through. What, what’s this year? This year we went out, Loring and Aaron, my
daughter and son in law
56:55 TR: The river queen?
56:56 T: No
56:56 TR: No
56:57 T: They went on to the retro, to the retro electric boat guys. Last year they rented one of
the retro electric boats. This year they went down and rented a new boat which they have a series
of doughnut boats [laugh]
57:10 TR: Yes. Oh we were talking about that
57:11 T: And we went out on a doughnut boat one afternoon. What a laugh
57:14 TR: How things have changed [laugh]
57:17 T: How things have changed. The one thing I will say is, and it goes along with the
comments about real estate and real estate values is the slips are half the size they should be
57:28 TR: Really?
57:30 T: If the slips were twice as big
57:32 TR: You’d have bigger boats
57:33 T: You’d have bigger boats. And real estate would be worth more
57:34 TR: Maybe that’s a blessing in disguise. Uh, because I often thought about
57:37 T: That’s one of the biggest prob, right now that’s one of the biggest constraints on
property values. Is size, is the size of a slip.
57:50 TR: Is that why your neighbor bought a one, to keep a boat? Because they were on Lake
Michigan? Didn’t they own something on Lake Michigan?
57:55 T: Yeah. Yeah. That’s right. They did. They had a pool on the Lake shore drive, south of
the washout. Patrick
�57:58 TR: So it’s an advantage obviously to have a home on the river because you can keep a
boat, and, uh, and the size, some big boats
58:06 T: Right, and uh. You can keep some big boats. And Dick Hayworth’s got the A’ frame,
and Dick’s Eagle Feather’s 70 feet.
58:18 TR: Yeah, I, people talk about it. I haven’t see it. He obviously hasn’t invited me, so
that’s all right.
58:25 T: No. And Lucy Penguin’s down there now. They had, they bought Kelly’s, and, uh,
Lucy Penguin’s got to be in the same class.
58:34 TR: Yeah. Well now we see helicopters buzzing over, and people commuting, and geez.
That’s
58:40 T: But something it’s just like you know, if, if, if, if the Dennison property goes through
and they build what
58:50 TR: Well, it has gone through. Yes.
58:51 T: Well, who knows. Um. But if that, if they build big slips, there’s going to be big boats,
and that’s going to change the whole well
59:00 TR: I can imagine because people shop. Do they shop or do they go to restaurants? Do
they support the arts?
59:08 T: Oh, I think you’ll find they do.
59:10 TR: I hope so
59:12 T: They do, do, uh, do, and they’re also 8 minutes away from a jet port. [laugh]
59:15 TR: yup, yup, yeah, oh boy. So. We, uh, there is a future. Your property might be pretty
good
59:18 T: Things, things, things, things could change rapidly
59:28 TR: Yeah, I’m surprised at some of the sizes I see now. And I never thought about this.
Size of the slips, and yeah. What, what do you feel about Douglas buying the Tower marine? Just
just does that seem feasible or right?
59:38 T: well, you know the fiscal, fiscal, reality of a city, of the city having a municipal
marina
59:48 TR: There are some in Michigan
�59:50 T: Yes. You cannot get government grants to improve your waterfront
59:57 TR: Unless you own
59:59 T: Unless you own a municipal marina. And Douglas now has a municipal marina in
fact, between
1:00:08
TR: That one on the bayou
1:00:10
T: on the bayou side, between Bud Max’s place and Notten’s between the two,
they are now officially, they’re now in they now qualify to get grants. To get federal grants.
Saugatuck does not have a municipal marina. So it doesn’t qualify. It doesn’t get municipal
grants. Federal grants
1:00:30
TR: Interesting
1:00:31
T: To move their water front. And if they did, which would be Saugatuck yacht
service. If they did do something like purchase that then they’d qualify and both of the cities
could combine their grantage and get enough money to dredge Kalamazoo Lake. So there, there
is logic
1:00:45
TR: Ah. That’s the point that is being made
1:00:53
T: to it. There is logic to it. It would take the property off the tax rolls, but it
would replace it with grant money coming from the federal government. So.
1:01:04
of the area
TR: Ah. Yeah and that was one of the questions there: what do you see the future
1:01:12
T: [pause] it’s not going to go downhill.
1:01:15
TR: Not going to go downhill?
1:01:16
T: uh uh
1:01:17
TR: Yeah we do have
1:01:18
T: We’ve got one of the best school systems in the state
1:01:20
TR: We do
1:01:21
T: We’ve got, you know and an incredible community full of with you know. One
of the great strengths of Saugatuck Douglas is diversity. And you can just see it. This place just
reeks of quality, skilled talented people
1:01:40
TR: [laugh] I would agree
�1:01:42
T: And it is amazing. It’s just wonderful. And that’s not going to change.
1:01:45
TR: I remember when
1:01:46
T: They may go away in the winter. They may go to Palm Springs, or they may
go to Miami, but in the summer they’re all going to be here
1:01:55
TR: Yeah. You want to be here. Yeah. I remember when your wife Sandra sold
me my house you know, on Butler Street. Then I was thinking of buying something in Holland
and you said you do not want to be in Holland. You do not want to be in, and Holland was very
different. Holland then. I’m glad I took your advice there
1:02:14
T: Yes. It was a very different Holland then [laugh]
1:02: 20
TR: The, uh, any other thoughts or comments or, I know that you said later on
that things might occur to you they could follow up. It would be nice to get Sandra to you know
do a little oral history
1:02:30
T: Well she can tell you the story of being a retailer
1:02:35
TR: Retail! Yes. Very important. Yes, still is in there. Retail
1:02:40
T: mm hm, and she, now she was on the school board for 18 years.
1:02:45
TR: Yup, and she knows that—oh! With your uh, company Sipeto (?) up in
Zealand. I assume it’s Zealand?
1:02:50
T: yup
1:02:51
TR: yeah. Did you ever think about it, having a manufacturing plant here?
1:03:03
T: The, um, the Hayworth plant sings a siren’s song [laugh]
1:03:05
TR: ok. Ok
1:03:08
T: The problem is that they, you know, who was it? Scot Gearlings, the developer
went through went through a lot of, I was part of the package trying to get the remediation done
for the contamination. It has just gone on and on and on and on
1:03:25
TR: And will
1:03:30
T: and hasn’t happened. And if that would happen, then it would go.
1:03:32
TR: Isn’t that interesting
�1:03:34
T: The other side of that is, is uh, I mean there’s a 7-acre plant there. 7 acre piece
of property that has a 150,000 square of building sprinkled
1:03:45
TR: Ready
1:03:48
T: Ready to go with the powder coat line in place. You know. It’s just sitting
there. If they’d just remediate the place so that you could turn it into something.
1:03:58
TR: Isn’t it interesting that I found out that you helped build part of that. The
connection. What comes around is truly amazing
1:04:08
T: Yeah. What comes around comes around. You can’t escape it.
1:04:10
TR: Right. I, um, yeah. In our lifetime, we obviously have seen a lot of changes
and, uh, I don’t know how long we’re going to live, but it seems the pace is even faster. The
building and all those things and all that.
1:04:28
T: How long we’ll live. I’m on my third life time now [laugh]
1:04:29
TR: We don’t know. I know. I know. That’s what we call you. A born again
vegetarian. Yeah. Twice over
1:04:40
T: [laugh]. Yeah.
1:04:42
TR: Well if we can’t think of too much more I think we can wrap it up, but I’ve,
I’ve learned a little bit more of, of, uh. I’ve heard some of these stories over and over, and loved
hearing them again
1:04:52
T: You never heard about my folks, my grandparents being Christian Scientists
though, did you?
1:04:55
TR: No. no. I thought that was just your mother side
1:04:58
Erbana.
T: No, no. They were in the Christian Science Church. And then they met in
1:05:06
TR: That’s interesting yeah. And there were some real characters. Um, Burt
Tilstrom, um,
1:05:10
T: oh yeah
1:05:12
TR: Some significant people and my contribution was the stone wall from the
lower garden. That was my gift back to Sylvia as a remembrance type of thing so. That hopefully
will out live me. Yeah. Type of thing. I guess that’s a wrap you can
1:05:28
T: Ok.
�1:05:29
TR: All right.
1:05:29
T: Thank you
1:05:30
TR: Thank you
recording ends 1:05:34
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1910s-2010s
Source
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Various
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Subject
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Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Michigan, Lake
Allegan County (Mich.)
Beaches
Sand dunes
Outdoor recreation
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Contributor
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Saugatuck-Douglas History Center
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Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
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image/jpeg
application/pdf
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Image
Text
Language
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English
Date
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2018
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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DC-07_SD-RandolphT-20180721
Creator
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Randolph, Travis
Date
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2018-07-21
Title
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Travis Randolph (Audio interview and transcript), 2018
Description
An account of the resource
Travis shares memories of Saugatuck from the 1950s, '60s, and '70s.
Contributor
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Reyda, Ted (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Allegan County (Mich.)
Outdoor recreation
Oral history
Audio recordings
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Documenting the Histories of Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas, Kutsche Office of Local History
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
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Sound
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f5ceb5544737274ad0354aed8dbe3e81.mp3
938739238408867d8ab6517f3b439088
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b5da0b5d332168fcb4707391a86c00ca.pdf
3acf8258def39fae93587d76f6897712
PDF Text
Text
Jane Osman- Interview by Margaret Mason
July 21, 2018
0:02
JO: Push it. Oh. Now it’s, it should be working now
0:03
MM: All right.
0:04
JO: Because it the solid thing
0:05
MM: Ok. So
0:07
JO: So then we should probably start with that right over there
0:08
MM: Yeah. All right. Thank you for coming, Jane
0:10
JO: You are welcome. Very welcome
0:13 MM: You just finished doing an interview yourself, so I appreciate that. Um, so. I
should, your name is Jane
0:18
JO: Jane Osman
0:20
MM: Jane Osman. Thank you. O-S-
0:26
JO: M-A-N
0:27
MM: M-A-N Thank you. All right. And I’m Margaret Mason.
0:30
JO: Mmhm. Margaret
0:31 MM: Thank you. Um, and today is July 21, 2018. And we’re collecting these stories as
part of the Stories of Summer Project, which is supported by a grant by the National Endowment
for the Humanities Common Heritage Program. Thank you for coming. I appreciate it very
much. So, do, let me, tell me where you grew up?
0:52 JO: Well, actually I was born in, uh Grayling. I spent my very early years in Kalkaska,
MI, because my father was superintendent there. Then we moved to Utica. That’s where I began
my schooling. Which was over near Detroit. And we were there until second grade. And then in
second grade we move to Fennville, and my father was the superintendent there. And I graduated
with Fennville High School, and that’s where I came into contact with Saugatuck. And I was
always a cheerleader there. Um, Fennville was much larger than Saugatuck. I would say 5 times
or larger as far as the school, the graduating class. Everything like this. We had football, we had
basketball. We had baseball. Um. We had a tennis court, well, we didn’t have a tennis team or
anything, but we had no girls’ sports. No girls’ PE or anything, and it wasn’t until I went to
college that “Gee. I have to take PE?” I didn’t even know what PE was
�1:56
MM: Right. Wow.
1:57 JO: Physical Education. When we were at Fennville, we were the Fennville Blackhawks,
and we were always the rivals of Saugatuck and the Saugatuck Indians. And I can remember
when, and Cynthia just told me a short time ago that it was in the late 50’s I guess, um, er, er no.
I guess it was the early 50’s that the high school in Saugatuck burned. And I remember my dad
getting a phone call because, oh what was his first name? Mr. Waugh. Dr. Waugh. Um, W-A-UG-H. Was the superintendent here, and he called my dad, and the high school was burning. And I
know that they had to go to different churches and then different buildings to have classes until
they kind of remodeled it in the gym and put classrooms in there. But that was when it burned.
But we were always the biggest rivals. So Fennville played Saugatuck, and Saugatuck only had a
basketball team.
2:52
MM: Oh my gosh.
2:55 JO: They didn’t have football. They didn’t have any of the others. And Cynthia told me
that her graduating class, I think she said they were 10.
3:00
MM: Oh my goodness.
3:01
JO: And
3:01
MM: How big was your graduating class
3:03
JO: Ah. In our graduating class I think we probably had maybe 55
3:07
MM: yeah
3:08
JO: but that’s still pretty small
3:08
MM: Considerably bigger. Yeah but, but much bigger than Saugatuck for sure.
3:10 JO: But much bigger than Saugatuck. But, uh, it was always fun to come over and the
Fennville girls would always, whether it was good or bad, we liked to date the Saugatuck boys
because it was exciting because this was kind of like, um, the bad place over here [laugh]
3:27
MM: Oh that’s funny. Be, be with the bad boys
3:32
JO: Yes. That’s right. We called the basketball team the Nicotine 5
3:35
MM: oh! [laugh]
3:36
JO: Isn’t that terrible?
3:37
MM: No. It’s probably true
�3:28 JO: And Cynthia’s cousin Frank Lamb, Frank Lovejoy, Will Hedgeland, um, Bob
Frankenridge, Ralph Burcoss, um, I think Rex Francis for a while and, well, he was, I think he
had an altercation or something over here and then he went to school in Fennville. But anyway,
we always were rivals. It was always very, very exciting to come to a game. I was always a
cheerleader for Fennville, and, um, I can remember some of the cheerleaders from Saugatuck
too. Um. Kerry Wicks, I think was one, um, oh my word. The names escape me right now. But
anyway, what I did over here was I put myself through Hope College working for Joe and Cathy
Hetacheck.
4:25
MM: What did Joe and Cathy Hetacheck do?
4:27 JO: Well, Joe and Cathy had, when I was first working there, the Frost Mug. And the
Frost Mug was where the old Tara (?) was, and then there, I guess it was Center Street? Is that
the one that goes right through? The Old School House
4:37
MM: Yeah. Uh huh. Uh huh. Center Street. Yeah. And then Terra was right over here
4:41 JO: Over here. Behind it. And that was there. Then you cross Center Street, and there
was this bar, whatever. I never went in it
4:50
MM: Because you were a young innocent young girl
4:51 JO: Oh, yes, and I would never be around to go in that. But I was not the kind who “Oh
gee, if it’s bad I’m going to do it”
4:55
MM: Yeah. Right.
4:59 JO: It was called the Woodshed. And then, um, there was the Frost, there, there was the,
I think they called it the Dairy Queen, or the Tasty Freeze. It was the Tasty Freeze. And then Joe
and Cathy had a square building that was probably maybe, maybe 30X30 or maybe 20X20
5:15
MM: Oh. Small.
5:17 JO: And it, very small, and it had shelves around the outside. And it was called the Frost
Mug. And they called it the Frost Mug because we had the Root Beer Mugs, and we kept them
in, we put them in chest freezers
5:30
MM: Sure
5:31
JO: And they were all frosty
5:31
MM: They were frosty, yeah.
5:35 JO: And, my first year that I worked there, I had just graduated from High School, and so
I worked at the fruit canners in the morning from 7 o clock until 5 o clock I guess. Or maybe it
was 7 to 3. And picked rotten cherries off the belt
�5:50
MM: Oh gosh
5:51 JO: And that was in Fennville. And I don’t know how much I got paid per hour, but that
was just for cherry season. And cherry season lasted only for maybe, oh, middle of June to end
of July. But before that summer was over, so it probably had to have been about the first part of,
or the end of June, I got a job with Joe and Cathy, and
6:10
MM: How did you get that job? How did you find that job?
6:13
JO: Probably somebody told me
6:14
MM: Uh huh.
6:15 JO: That they were hiring. They wanted waitresses. And this was not the kind of waitress
where you put out silverware or anything like this. It was, I was a car hop. And I can remember
that we all wore dresses. You didn’t wear pants. And I would wear, uh, I made, what would you
call them, like pantaloons?
6:34
MM: Yeah sure.
6:35 JO: So that when you bend over, because you had to bend over to get in the freezer,
nobody could see your underwear, you would wear these. But 10 cents, oh we were paid 50 cents
an hour if you worked outside, but it was a dollar an hour that you made if you worked inside
6:52
MM: Oo
6:53
JO: So that was a lot of money
6:54
MM: Yeah. Yeah. Actually that, that really was
6:55 JO: Well it was back, probably about 1959 when I started. I worked there for four years,
until 1963. And the first year I worked there it was this small building called the Frost Mug. And
it was the busiest, I could only work from 5 until 3 in the morning because I had this other job uh
picking rotten cherries off
7:16
MM: the cherries
7:17 JO: So I would come, and I would serve at 5 o clock. And then we would have the
supper hour. Then it would get really, really slow until about 9 or 10. And then we would get a
little bit of a rush before 11. And then we would stand around, and we would tell jokes, and Joe
would tell and they were probably very dirty jokes. Um, the only one I can remember right now
is “Get off the table, Myrtle. This here quarter is, is for beer.”
7:42
MM: [laugh]
�7:43 JO: isn’t that terrible? And we would all stand around and we’d laugh. So it was dumb,
because we had this dull time from about 11 until 1, and then the bars close at 2. And then we
would just have a rush of people coming after the bars closed because they were going to sober
up before they went home. We were open until 3 o clock in the morning. So we just put out lots
and lots of pots of coffee. And we would sell all kinds of coffee. And coffee was 10 cents
8:13
MM: wow. Not root beer though, at that time of day, typically
8:15
JO: And, oh well, they didn’t need the root beer to sober up
8:20
MM: Yeah. Right. I’m sure. I guess not.
8:22 JO: But I just remember that we would, uh, put the tray on the, the car window. They’d
have to roll it up, so that there was this ledge that you could put it on. And coffee was 10 cents,
so they would often throw out their whole pocket full of change, and that’s when you made your
money and your tips
8:38
MM: Right. Sure.
8:40 JO: And I’m sure sometimes I would make as many as, oh $20 a night. And that was
really, really big bucks
8:45
MM: Yeah sure
8:46 JO: I cannot believe that I was able to put myself through Hope College for four years
doing that
8:51
MM: That is really incredible. And you paid your tuition and
8:56
JO: Yup. Yup. And board
8:59
MM: Wow
9:00
JO: and
9:01
MM: Do, working, so you work there 12 months of the year, or just in the summer?
9:02
JO: Nope, because it was only open
9:04
MM: Ok. Yeah
9:04 JO: It was only open in summer. And so he probably opened a little bit before Memorial
Day, and then he would close, you know, I can’t really remember, but I can remember working
after Labor Day, and then coming home and working the weekends, uh, afterwards. Um, but he
would close during the winter time. And Joe and Cathy lived on Pleasant Street. So you’d go up
the hill, and the house is still there. And Joe and winter clothes and summer clothes. Because in
�the summer time he’d work so hard that he would lose all this weight in, and then in winter time,
when I would see him, when I would come back in May, I’d say “Oh my word! It’s like Santa
Clause is here”
9:44
MM: That’s funny. And then he would lose it all again.
9:48
JO: All again in the summer. Yeah
9:49 MM: Summer. Well that’s an impressive story, that you could put yourself through
college. Room and board and books and everything.
9:56
JO: But that was 50 years ago, you’ve got to remember
9:58
MM: I know, but I’m still, that’s still very, very impressive. That’s incredible
10:00 JO: And of course you would get uh loans. And because I was a teacher, then we got,
what were they called? Some kind of a loan. And you only had to pay half of it back
10:08 MM: Yes. Because you were going to teach yeah
10:12 JO: You were going to teach. Yeah. I can’t remember what it was called right now. I
don’t remember. But Joe and Cathy had no children, but they were just really, really a nice, nice
couple
10:20 MM: Did they seem like kind of aunt and uncle like to you or parents or?
10:23 JO: Oh they were, they were parents to us, because uh, when we would have the
Venetian nights. Or not Venetian night. It was called, um, oh, uh, Jazz Festivals. And the Jazz
Festivals I think that’s what was last year at the Pump House event there this year, and I think
it’s kind of a continuation of that. They were out at, they were supposedly out at the race track
out here. South of town. But this is where you would have all these kids coming, college kids, I
can remember it was always in July during they called it Jazz Festival Week. It was kind of like
Venetian Festival Week. And it would be so crowded that we, that, uh, they closed off the whole
town. And I can remember that Joe would have us stay with him at their house. And he had
permission for us. And we’d all just pile in two cars, and then drive to his house and sleep at his
house because we had to be at work here at 11 o clock the next morning.
11:22 MM: Right
11:23 JO: and so we would sleep there. Cathy was the organist at St. Peter’s
11:25 MM: Oh gosh. Yeah.
11:29 JO: Very talented. Just a really, really neat couple
�11:34 MM: What a wonderful memory to have, to have the comradery of the people you
worked with. Is there anybody in particular who you worked with that you can think of
11:42 JO: I remember I worked with Franny Benkin. And there was a large Benkin family in
Saugatuck. I worked with Kay Schretigas (?). And she was older than I, and she was teaching
already when I was in school, so therefore, after school started, Joe would let me go early
because I was still in school
12:02 MM: Yeah
12:03 JO: And Kay was out of school, so she was smart. She didn’t have to do any homework
or think. And that was probably very unfair. And I worked with Kerry Wicks. And I think her
father was Frank Wicks of the Wickwood Inn
12:11 MM: Oh yeah, yeah. Yeah.
12:12 JO: And Jerry Muehlenbeck. Her older sister Joy is still in, in uh Saugatuck. Jerry, um,
lives around here someplace. I think she lives around the Fennville area. And Joy still sells
popcorn and such. She’s a popcorn lady.
12:28 MM: Yes. Right Sure.
12:29 JO: And I, so those are four that I do remember working with. And I can remember on
the menu it was, uh a hamburger was 35 cents. And a cheeseburger was 40 cents. You paid you
paid five more cents for that piece of cheese
12:42 MM: [laugh] for the cheese
12:44 JO: Canadian Bacon was 55 cents. A hot dog was a quarter. I remember for Mother’s
Day; it was always kind of embarrassing because we would always get lots. So we had to open
early in May then for Mother’s Day
12:55 MM: Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
12:57 JO: For Mother’s Day we would order three times as many hot dogs because that’s what
everybody, when they, the father would bring the mother and all the kids in for Mother’s Day
13:05 MM: Oh. And all the kids for a hot, yeah
13:05 JO: So she didn’t have to cook. Hot dog
13:08 MM: She, the kids would get a hotdog.
13:12 JO: Root beer was a dime. Coffee was a dime. Doughnuts were a dime. Um, we had two
dinners. We had a shrimp dinner and a chicken dinner. And they were a dollar and a quarter. And
�it was a shrimp dinner, uh, I think there were 9 pieces of shrimp, salad, and then French fries.
How much were French fries? Maybe, were French fries were, 20 cents? I don’t really remember
13:30 MM: But if you got the dinner the French fries came
13:33 JO: Fries go with it. Yeah. But we also sold fries separately. And you could get whatever
you wanted on your hamburger. And I know sometimes we would grill and then we, then we
would have somebody else standing on the counter, but this after, the first year I worked there it
was called the Frost Mug. And then the next year, he had, I think it was the next year he had built
what he called the Red Wood. It had red sides, redwood sides on it. Much larger. And then he
had this big cement out in front with parking on both sides. And it was that way. And parking in
the back too. It also had tables inside. I think there were about maybe 6 tables inside. It was
much, it was probably four times bigger than it was before. But the prices were still the same.
Joe and Cathy worked there all day long. Every single day we were open, 7 days a week. It was
amazing
14:28 MM: And so and you, when you were able to work inside you got more money.
14:30 JO: Right.
14:35 MM: And, but there were only 6 tables inside? Or something like that?
14:37 JO: When, when you worked inside that meant you, you were the garbarger, and you put
all the stuff on the hamburgers or
14:38 MM: oh. Right. Yeah. Right
14:42 JO: Whatever. Or you washed dishes and you ended up with
14:45 MM: chapped
14:46 JO: Uh, hands that looked like all wrinkles. Or you worked down in the basement, and,
oh now I remember two others who worked with us. Two, Anne Hutchinson and Sharon
Fleming. And Sharon Fleming would work downstairs because she had contacts. Because when
you peel the onions, otherwise we would all be crying
15:00 MM: Everyone’s weeping. Yeah.
15:03 JO: Just because she had contacts she didn’t cry and
15:07 MM: Contacts were new in those days
15:09 JO: Oh they were new. That’s right. And we also had to peel potatoes. So we had great
big, this is probably a terrible thing to say, but this great big pile of potato peelings down in the
basement. And every night we’d have to scoop them and put them in garbage bags. Because if
you didn’t do it, you got maggots.
�15:24 MM: Oh yeah.
15:24 JO: It was terrible. And we would peel all the potatoes you had to be careful because you
didn’t want to take your thumbnail off. And then when you put these slippery potatoes in water
and carry them up in buckets. And we had this potato thing. And you put it in, and you pulled the
thing down and made them all. Then so we made our own potatoes.
15:40 MM: Oh you, the lever pulled them to turn them into French fries’ size
15:42 JO: You pulled on this lever and they went into this container. And then you had all your
French fries. And if you worked inside you could also work the fryers. I never liked to do that
because you always burned your toes because when you pulled the, the baskets out of the hot
grease, then it would drip before you got it over onto the counter to put it into the little
containers. And so the tops of your tennis shoes were always all stained
16:10 MM: Covered. Oh really?
16:12 JO: Burn. Burned up too. It was, it was interesting. Um, the best kind of a, we never sold
this, but we would drink it ourselves because we could have one thing to eat and one thing to
drink and it was free. So because we worked there the seven
16:20 MM: Yeah. Should be. Yes right
16:27 JO: You would take, we sold chocolate milk too. So I don’t know if that was a dime. So
you take a frost mug and you would fill it half full with chocolate milk and put root beer in the
top
16:37 MM: Oo
16:38 JO: And was that ever good. It was great
16:40 MM: oh. Like a root beer float
16:41 JO: float. Yes. Except there was no ice cream
16:42 MM: Except it was milk and wow
16:44 JO: And in the front of it, facing 31, I guess the blue star high way, we had 1, 2, we had
4 big chest freezers full of layers of frost mugs of the, um, of the glasses
16:58 MM: Right to serve the root beer
17:02 JO: To serve it
�17:03 MM: Mm hm, so he, so they changed the name of the place and expanded it in between
one season and another as far as you remember
17:08 JO: They must have just, they must have done it very, very quickly. I don’t I remember
working first when it was the frost mug
17:17 MM: Right
17:18 JO: And then it was called the Red Wood
17:19 MM: Right, but it was bigger and had more inside seating
17:23 JO: That’s right were, um I think it’s called the Tasty Freeze I think is now called Way
Point. Because it’s still, it’s still the same building
17:30 MM: Yeah, sure. I know that. Yeah
17:34 JO: And there’s a building behind it, and that, that was, uh, Red Wood
17:37 MM: I see
17:37 JO: And I think it’s kind of reddish wood, or is it red brick?
17:40 MM: My, yeah. So Way Point is sort of back and it’s the M&M’s on the left
17:48 JO: On the left hand side
17:51 MM: M&M’s or what is now called the Blue Star Cafe is the one right facing, uh, 31.
And then Way Point is kind of behind it, I think
18:01 JO: Ok. Way Point. Ok. See, I, and they have really good ice cream sodas in there now.
But that’s where the Tasty Freeze was because it was in the front, so if you had 31 here, then the
Tasty Freeze was here, Terra was over there, uh, what did I say it was called? The Wood Shed
was over here, uh,
18:14 MM: Right. Right. Right. Yeah. Right. The Red Barn. The Red Wood
18:22 JO: Joe’s Red Wood was right over here, or the Frost Mug was right over here and the,
um, kind of like um, uh, what would you call it. A [pause] you can rent rooms. Like
18:37 MM: Oh, like a little Bed and Breakfast or motel ish thing. Yeah
18:39 JO: It’s a little motel thing. It’s over farther south on that same side
18:42 MM: And now Douglas elementary school is sort of back there, back
�18:47 JO: But it’s much farther back behind, but it’s much further back on
18:49 MM: Correct
18:51 JO: Center Street. So that was not there then. At all. We just had a parking lot behind.
Hm. That’s interesting. I can’t remember. It must have been just, I think it was only one year that
I worked there that it was the Frost Mug. It was that small square building
19:10 MM: And, and then it grew and the number of people you worked with increased?
19:13 JO: Oh yes. It grew, yeah. But I usually worked the 5-3 shift
19:20 MM: That is a long day! My goodness. If you’re getting up in the morning to do the
cherries
19:23 JO: Oh I, so I only did that one year. Much more profitable to be at the Red Wood
working with Joe and Cathy but go ahead
19:26 MM: Oh, yeah. Sure. Right. So when you graduated from Hope College did you continue
to work there in the summer?
19:38 JO: I think I worked there just one summer before I started teaching. And then after that,
of course, I had to go to school in summer sometimes to keep up my certification.
19:45 MM: Right.
19:47 JO: So I, I think I only worked there from 59 to about 63. I think that’s it
19:52 MM: Yeah
19:53 JO: But it, but those were good experiences. But another thing you had to do was clean,
well, you had to take, well, clean off all the trays and then, but you also had to clean the latrines,
and there was a guys’ and a girls’. And this was in the new building. It was awful and we hated
to do that. But that was one of our jobs
20:10 MM: ooh. Yeah. Right.
20:13 JO: Clean the latrine [groan]
20:15 MM: And washing the dishes. No dishwasher?
20:17 JO: [laugh] No. no really. No
20:20 MM: Hmm. Dishwasher hands
20:22 JO: Well see the only thing we had to wash though
�20:23 MM: The mugs
20:23 JO: Were the glasses. Everything else was paper
20:24 MM: Because it, paper. Ok. Gotcha
20:25 JO: And, uh, I imagine there were plastic forks or something to eat your chicken
20:30 MM: The, go back to the chicken dinner and the shrimp dinner. What, what was
included?
20:34 JO: Oh. It was, a, probably like a, uh, school tray like what you would use to go through
the cafeteria.
20:40 MM: Right.
20:41 JO: And, uh, they were both a dollar and a quarter. And it was probably a, uh, three
pieces of chicken I guess. Like a small thigh, a leg, and uh, I don’t know. But anyway three
pieces of chicken. They were
20:53 MM: Fried?
20:55 JO: yes. Fried. It was all deep fried.
20:58 MM: And who had to fry, you had to?
20:59 JO: No, Kathy was in charge of the fryers, and she did that usually. But sometimes, uh
when she would have to do something else, or she would go play the organ for a funeral or
something then we would have to do that. And we didn’t like to do it. But the, the fryers were all
on the opposite side. So they were on the south side. On the north side was the grille. And
actually Joe and two or three grilles there, and then a big long table. And that’s where we did all
the garbaging took it all. And then we had another big table at this end. At that’s where you
picked up your orders because you had to right everyting down.
21:28 MM: Right.
21:29 JO: And then you had to abbreviate it. And you could have whatever you wanted on
your, on your hamburger or your cheeseburger or Canadian Bacon. But you had to write down if
they wanted no onions or everything, or everything but, and there were all, 1, 2, 3, about 6 fryers
there. With the, with the baskets just like you see if you look in the window at McDonald’s.
21:52 MM: Right. Sure.
�21:53 JO: where they fry the stuff? And but we had a tossed salad. So she must have, I can
remember chopping tomatoes. And she must have purchased lettuce and the chopped that all up.
I know that Cathy often had bandages on her hands
22:07 MM: Oh dear. Chopping. Yeah.
22:08 JO: From her fingers. But she would also wear the plastic gloves
22:12 MM: Yeah.
22:13 JO: That are, but I’m sure we didn’t know at the time when we were. But that was back
then too.
22:18 MM: Yeah. Right. Well. That was back then. You didn’t yeah. And people
22:20 JO: Did you wash your hands? Yeah. So we would
22:22 MM: were probably smoking in the restaurant and everything.
22:24 JO: I’m sure. Yes
22:26 MM: So, I’m sorry, you had, she, the fried chicken that Cathy made
22:30 JO: Mm hm. She did everything over on that side
22:30 MM: Ok. All by, from, from scratch
22:34 JO: Yep
22:34 MM: It wasn’t by, and then French Fries, and a salad. And then the shrimp was fried
22:40 JO: There was, I think there were 9 pieces of shrimp. And they were small shrimp. They
had little tails on them. And they were in, so it was this, I don’t know, about 8 by 11, or
something like. Kind of about the size of a piece of paper. And then divided into three sections.
So you had your fries and salad. And then the larger section held your chicken or your shrimp
23:00 MM: yeah. And you would serve that to people, but you didn’t have to actually prepare it
23:05 JO: No
23:06 MM: But you did have to get the potatoes ready to be fried
23:08 JO: Right
23:10 MM: And take them out of the oil
�23:11 JO: But, see, that was all done, you only did that if you were inside. The inside people
did the potatoes, did the onions, did everything else. And those of us who were outside we just
simply took orders. And would write it down on our little pad. You had to wear an apron. And
we had to handle the money because handling the money was. You know, where did we put the
money?
23:32 MM: Did you have little pockets in
23:34 JO: we must have had a till. Oh we had, I had several aprons with pockets in them, but
we must have had a till where put the, I don’t remember that. We didn’t have a cash register. We
must have had a till that we put the money in someplace. There was
23:47 MM: At the end of the day, or
23:48 JO: Oh. We had to turn it in all the time because we had to taking. I don’t know how
23:52 MM: More money and yeah.
23:55 JO: We did that. I bet somebody else, maybe Jerry would remember. I don’t remember
how we did it. With the money
24:00 MM: And obviously they just trusted you so much to be honest with the money. You
never felt they were questioning you
24:08 JO: No
24:09 MM: And would never have thought of helping yourself to the money.
24:10 JO: No. We just didn’t, you didn’t do those sort of things back then
24:16 MM: No. Because there was a whole system of trust. And I love, love the idea of back to,
well, you stay at our house at this time when we’re going to have a lot of business. And we’ll
look after you and what a wonderful memory. That is great
24:30 JO: It was, and Cathy died, oh I think maybe 3 years ago now. Maybe it was 2 years ago.
And it was really, really sad. Uh, her funeral. Joe had died earlier. And I went to her funeral. It
was at St. Peter’s. And I don’t know which funeral home did it. But they had somebody else’s
picture
24:54 MM: [gasp]
24:54 JO: It was, I said “This is not Cathy!” They said, “No. We know. We mixed this up.”
25:00 MM: Oh my gosh
25:01 JO: It. That was really, really sad, and
�25:04 MM: disturbing
25:04 JO: There were very few people there. There was nobody else that I knew from working
there. But that was from 50 years ago too. But I would have thought that some people who still
were around would have come.
25:15 MM: Because the people you mentioned, who you did work with, many of them are still
here.
25:19 JO: I assume so. I haven’t seen Franny probably in 50 years. I don’t know if Kay
Schretigas (?) is still living or not. Kerry I assume is still around. I don’t know. Jerry
Muehlenbeck I do know is around. I see her every once in a while. I see her older sister Joy more
often. But it was really sad because I couldn’t believe. I said “This is not Cathy.” And they said
“no no.” And afterwards, um, I guess nieces, nephews, because they had no children, um, had
everybody go down to the Mermaid. And they, you could order hamburgers, French Fries, or
whatever you wanted reminisce of the days, and I thought that
25:58 MM: Oh. That’s sweet. Yes
25:58 JO: That was really, really special
26:01 MM: I think that is too. Do you know how long the, this place was in operation?
26:05 JO: Well, when I first started working there, they had been there at least 4 or 5 years I’m
guessing. I’m sure if we would look in the records it would say. And I know it was there, oh
probably into to the 70’s even. I’m guessing
26:20 MM: Yeah. Yeah. Good long
26:22 JO: I don’t, I really don’t know. When we, you move away, and then we were in the
Detroit area, you don’t, don’t pay any attention
26:28 MM: Right. Right so. You then left, uh, Saugatuck. You left this area? What, you, when
you graduated and you were teaching, did you not stay around in the area
26:39 JO: No, I was in the Detroit area then. I spent one year in Grand Haven, and then I was
in the Detroit area until the late 60’s. Til 70’s. So
26:48 MM: Mmhm. And then did you come back here?
26:50 JO: And now we live in Holland. We have lived in Holland since 1960, actually. No. I
told a lie. We came back in 68. Just before our son was born. So. And he was born in August, so
we came in July of 68.
�27:02 MM: Right. But really, Holland, in terms of being part of the Saugatuck Douglas
community, you’re not that far away in terms of, of having your memories, of this wonderful
community of this
27:14 JO: Mmhm. That’s why I like it so much. And that’s why I belong to the Saugatuck, um
Historical Center now it’s called. Rather than Holland’s I belong to that. But this is so much
more organized. Starts on time, um, has, is so much more vibrant, um, I hate to put down my
own city, but this one has much more life. And that’s why I participate here.
27:32 MM: Well, that’s wonderful. We’re very lucky that you do.
27:38 JO: Well, I think I’m lucky because it’s available
27:40 MM: And I, we’re brand new in town. We’ve only lived here
27:42 JO: Oh, I didn’t know that
27:44 MM: Yeah, we just have lived here for a year. So, um, I love hearing these stories and
these memories and trying to picture where things are, and your descriptions were so picture
perfect. You know, I can picture you in your pantaloons and the lower apron with the change
27:58 JO: Ooh you wore a dress over it though
28:00 MM: Oh yeah. Of course. Of course. Yes
28:02 JO: And they looked like then they had ruffles on the bottom. Oh my word. And we
would all wore tennis shoes. I remember somebody asking me “Did you wear, were you roller
skating?” Oh Heavens no. That was cement. But I remember it was Thelma Naughton who had
the, um, the Tasty Freeze. And she had a daughter, Corky. And I think they had a boat, boats or
fishing or something. Maybe you’ve heard of that. I don’t know.
28:27 MM: No, No, I haven’t
28:29 JO: Naughton N-A-U-G-H-T-O-N. Thelma and Corky Naughton. And they had that
Tasty Freeze. It was there for a long time
28:39 MM: Right. So all I can picture now is what locals call M&M’s and really is now called
the Blue Star Cafe, but they still have that window where you can soft or hard ice cream or
something
28:52 JO: Ok. Ok. That must be it.
28:54 MM: Like that. But there was a picture of a cone. You know if you look at the Blue Star
Cafe it looks like it’s just a drive in for ice cream. But it’s really the little restaurant beside it that
has, uh, Greek food
�29:00 JO: Oh, Greek food, even
29:04 MM: Yeah. Hm. I mean, it’s kind of
29:07 JO: I’ll have to go there
29:08 MM: Oh it’s fun. It’s a nice little, again, local, family run place. Um, and then behind
that is the Way Point. Where they have big breakfasts, uh, uh
29:20 JO: That must be the, I, I guess I should drive over there and just look because I’ll bet
that’s the old Red Wood
29:26 MM: I bet. It seems from your description
29:26 JO: A big building. It’s, it’s
29:29 MM: Long. Yeah.
29:30 JO: Longer the way of the road.
29:32 MM: Yes. Exactly.
29:34 JO: And, cause we would, we had swinging doors you’d always boop your way because
you had two trays. So strong we could, I could carry, it sounds like bragging, but I could carry a
tray with 6 root beers in on hand
29:46 MM: oh, a, a mug
29:48 JO: Yes. 6 mugs in one hand, and then burgers and whatever else in the other. So you
went out, and so there were no handles on it. You just booped your way out. And then you had
an out and an in. And you never went out the in or you’d have a
30:01 MM: Right, and Jane, just because the recording won’t show this, you are not a large
woman, so
30:05 JO: [laugh]
30:07 MM: So being able to do that must have been so
30:08 JO: Oh we were strong
30:10 MM: Yeah. Obviously
30:12 JO: But, but your thumb, you just hooked on the, and I remember now too. One thing I
did not like, when the cars came out with automatic and they pushed the button. And so then
�they’d accidentally hit it with their elbow. And everything would fall off. And all these things
would smash. But Joe and Cathy never made us pay for
30:26 MM: Oh no.
30:27 JO: The smashed
30:30 MM: It wasn’t your fault
30:30 JO: Well no, but I mean otherwise it could have been “Oh sorry. You didn’t tell them”
We never liked that because back then it was all the hand cranks
30:40 MM: yeah sure.
30:41 JO: And we’d say “now, don’t touch that.” But every once in a while somebody would
accidentally hit it with an elbow. And then the thing would go down and dinner’s all smashed
30:48 MM: Oh now. Right. And then you’d have to start all over again and clean up the glass
and. I wonder how many mugs they had in there. Your description is chest freezer
30:58 JO: Well. You know how big a chest freezer is?
31:00 MM: Yeah. Sure.
31:03 JO: And we had several layers in there. Oh we must have had, a thousand, or more. I
mean
31:09 MM: I remember those mugs. Those glass, and then the handle on it, and then
31:12 JO: Glass handle. Big glass handle. It was all froze, and then it had the, a bottom on it
that was kind of up on the inside. It was a false
31:20 MM: Yeah. Sure. Indented. Yeah.
31:22 JO: Bottom, but they were, that was a bigger mug then you get. And ten cents, but that’s
what it was
31:28 MM: And what kind of root beer was it? What was the brand? Do you know?
31:32 JO: I have no idea because it came in, he would get a, that’s what you would do. You as
the waitress or the car hop got your own drinks. Everything else would come out and then you
got your drinks. Unless they were really busy, and then they got someone else doing drinks.
Cause drinks were on the side. I don’t know what it was, but I know it came in big things. And
we didn’t have to fill it because Joe, Joe would always do that.
31:54 MM: Right. Right
�31:55 JO: He was strong enough, and he could get it up there. And I know you have to put the
stuff in something else
31:57 MM: You have to put the syrup and the whatever
32:00 JO: And I couldn’t tell you what kind of chocolate milk we had either. I think we had,
we must have had white milk too. Why would he just have had chocolate milk?
32:08 MM: Well because chocolate milk is a big treat and root beer is a big treat and
32:10 JO: Yeah I guess that’s it. But we didn’t have Coke. We didn’t have 7-up or any of that
32:15 MM: Right. No. No. No. No. It’s clearly, and you think of those mugs as root beer
32:20 JO: as a root beer mug
32:21 MM: when you think of them. Yeah
32:22 JO: Just like the root beer barrel that’s over there
32:24 MM: Sure. Yeah, and it, it wasn’t there at the time. It was there at the time?
32:28 JO: It was there. It was still
32:30 MM: It was still open and selling root beer also?
32:32 JO: It must have been
32:33 MM: Seems like
32:37 JO: I remember going there in high school. But see, that was over in Douglas
32:38 MM: yeah
32:39 JO: and that was a much smaller operation. I think they just did hotdogs and root beer.
But I could be wrong too. I don’t know.
32:38 MM: so small you can’t imagine that it would
32:50 JO: and ours was much larger. I can remember that. Oh my word. Sometimes we were
just really, really, really busy there. And all the trays would be piled up and you just couldn’t
keep up.
32:58 MM: Right
�32:59 JO: But that was good and time went fast, so
33:00 MM: yeah. Yeah. You’re right. You weren’t bored. And no time for jokes when it was
really busy
33:03 JO: Well not always. It was usually the dead time from about mid night till quarter after
one and then that was time for. Oh! That’s when Joe’d call “OK. Gather round. It’s time for the
dirty 30.”
33:14 MM: [laugh]
33:15 JO: and I mean it was really stupid, but you
33:18 MM: but you loved it
33:21 JO: to have something to keep you entertained
33:23 MM: Were you tired? Do you remember thinking “Oh my gosh. I’d like to go home” or
33:27 JO: Oh probably. And at that time, um, I was staying north of Holland where my parents
had had, well, it’s still in our family. It was my great-great-great grandfather’s cottage. And we
lived out there. And so it was a good 35 40-minute drive for me to get there
33:45 MM: Yeah.
33:45 JO: And, so I’d get home probably 4:30 in the morning
33:50 MM: Oh my goodness
33:50 JO: See I didn’t start again until 5 o clock in the afternoon. So I would sleep probably
until noon. Then go to the beach
33:55 MM: Yeah. Right. [laugh]
33:58 JO: And just go down our steps to the beach and then I was at work by 10 to 5 or so.
34:00 MM: Right. That’s a love, sounds like an idyllic life.
34:04 JO: It was, it was fun
34:05 MM: being a, being a teenager and early 20’s, um, that you had, and, uh, and I don’t
mean to exaggerate when I call it meaningful, but it is meaningful when you’re serving people
and you know, it’s not like you’re reading to the blind or something. But you are providing a
service and people
�34:22 JO: And we got to know people too. Some of them would come in all the time. We had a
couple that would come in from Saugatuck. And we called them Salt and Norma. And
sometimes Salt and Pepper. They would come in about 10 o clock at night, and we could never
do this now. I mean it’d be illegal. They wanted their hamburgers, and these were big quarter
pound hamburgers. Joe would make them himself. And they wanted them just on the grille, so
they were raw really. Just, and with just onions. And that was it. And so it would be just an order
for Salt, we’d say “S & P order” and they knew what it was
34:54 MM: when they, yeah.
34:57 JO: and they put them on and just
35:00 MM: barely warmed up
35:01 JO: barely warmed them up
35:03 MM: they’re eating raw meat basically yeah
35:03 JO: yeah
35:04 MM: Steak tartare only
35:05 JO: oh that would be!
35:07 MM: you wouldn’t. No. And, well nothing you’re talking about would be allowed now.
You would have all had to be wearing gloves, you couldn’t handle the money and handle the
food
35:10 JO: gloves. That’s right. food
35:16 MM: And they would never let kids do the stuff with the potatoes and the basement, and
work the fryer and all that. Is interesting. And yet you thrived, and people had good food and
they weren’t dropping dead of food poisoning.
35:30 JO: [laugh] not that we knew of anyway
35:33 MM: That you knew of, yeah.
35:35 JO: And Joe and Cathy were just such nice people. And hard workers. Oh
35:40 MM: and that sounds like it, it was their, uh, imprimatur (?), their, their symbol of, you
know getting you all in and getting this place for regulars and. Did you have some regulars from
the bar at when people came in at?
35:54 JO: Oh sure, and you just knew you’re just like, oh 3 coffee and, oh gee, I hope you get
home on time
�35:54 MM: At when people came in after drinking and you just knew like, oh. Yeah. Right
36:04 JO: And, in fact, I can still remember, and that’s why I’m a tee totaller to this this day.
Because I would have friends come in and upchuck. It was just awful. I thought I don’t need that
in my life
36:10 MM: Right. Why would anybody want to do that?
36:17 JO: And it was, it was an eye opener. But I’m sure we were extremely naive to
everything else that was going on. And, do bars still close at 2 o clock now
36:27 MM: No idea.
36:28 JO: I don’t know either
36:29 MM: I don’t go to bars
36:30 JO: Maybe. I know in England everything is at 10 o clock or 11 the pubs close
36:32 MM: They call hours yeah. That’s right
36:34 JO: But I don’t know now. But that’s when we would get this influx
36:38 MM: Right. It might be earlier than that, but of course, you know. When you think about
it the restaurants here in Douglas and Saugatuck mostly close, you know 11 at the most
36:48 JO: at the most
36:50 MM: they’re closed. So they’re not, and I don’t really know of an actual just place that’s
just a bar. The places I know in the limited time we’ve lived here are all restaurants. And they
have, they typically close at 10 or maybe 11 on weekend, weekend. But they’re certainly not just
drinking establishments. But it was a wilder time too. You talked about the jazz festivals
37:14 JO: that’s right. Sure. And that’s when all those kids were there and all the riots
37:18 MM: yeah. Do you remember the violence, the motorcycles?
37:22 JO: I, I just heard about it. That’s all. Um, because we weren’t involved. We were
outside of town. And I know that, I shouldn’t say I know, I heard that the problems were not out
there with the jazz festival because they were just doing their thing there. But the problems were
in town. And there are a lot of other people who can tell lots more about that. But I’ve heard
stories about how they were come in, and they had their paddy wagons, and they’d take them off
to Allegan or whatever because there’s not a jail here.
37:48 MM: right. Right, right.
�37:50 JO: And I don’t know. I
37:53 MM: But they didn’t find their way up to where, they didn’t come to, to where you were
working and get anything to eat. Because it was off the beaten path where you were
38:02 JO: It was. I assume so, because they were doing their
38:02 MM: from their perspective because
38:07 JO: And by 2 o clock in the morning they were all [laugh]
38:08 MM: Lying down in the dirt somewhere. Yeah. Wow. What wonderful memory. That is
great
38:10 JO: It was fun. It was fun
38:15 MM: Well
38:16 JO: So we enjoyed it. And I did, I’ve given you what I can remember, most as far as my,
my time working there. And I think just right here at is where we should do our
38:28 MM: Any, any advice for any young person listening to this tape?
38:33 JO: Oh. Do your thing
38:35 MM: [laugh]
38:36 JO: Do your thing. It’s, get as much of an experience as you possibly can. Um. Life is
wonderful, and you meet so many people doing things that you never would think you could do
38:47 MM: Right
38:48 JO: And so what if, I learned that I didn’t want to spend the rest of my life being a
waitress
38:54 MM: Right. Or to become an alcoholic. At least with that
38:57 JO: Uh, that’s for sure, for sure
39:00 MM: And with that, that the warmth that was offered to you and your fellow workers by
this couple who were childless, but you were their children, and
39:08 JO: we were their children. That’s right. Joe and Cathy
�39:10 MM: And you felt that you were Joe and Cathy’s children. I mean you felt obviously you
loved your parents and your family, but this was uh,
39:18 JO: Actually spent much more time with them then you did with your own family
39:20 MM: Of course
39:20 JO: And I can remember Cathy’s birthday in the summer time. And so we pulled our
money and there was a beautiful dress that she liked that was next door because, oh there was
kind of a little shop in amongst these hotel rooms. And she’d seen this dress, so we bought this
dress for her. And I don’t know where or when she could have ever worn it because she was
always working. She always had this apron all full of grease, and she, uh, poor Cathy. But we
bought the dress for here, and she was just absolutely thrilled.
39:50 MM: What a sweet thing that you did that. Because you loved her
39:52 JO: We loved her
39:54 MM: you totally loved her. And Joe
39:55 JO: yes
39:56 MM: And it’s nice, I think, as a, as a psychologist, which I am
39:59 JO: Oh, I didn’t know that.
40:02 MM: I am a retired, um, anyway, to have another set of parents. Because we love our
own parents, but part of the job of growing up, as you know, teaching
40:10 JO: It’s a little tough
40:13 MM: is to, well, you need to have another perspective and you need to have other people
who love you. Who love you for you are, not because you’re their child, but because they love
who you are
40:25 JO: you are
40:26 MM: And that’s just a blessing. You are very, very lucky. It’s a very sweet story.
Anything else I didn’t think to ask you or
40:35 JO: No. I think not. So
40:36 MM: I was, one teeny other thing. The ketchup and stuff. Did you put it on? Did you
have little packets and, I mean were you able to just
�40:42 JO: No, nothing was, we didn’t have packets at all. We had the big containers of ketchup
and mustard and relish
40:45 MM: So if they asked for ketchup you’d put it all on
40:50 JO: Yeah. It was already on the hamburger on the, or on the, um, no. That’s right. We
did have little packets. And we would put a thing of ketchup with the French Fries. That’s right.
A little just like they do that, so they could dip
41:03 MM: oh so they could dip it in
41:04 JO: That’s right, I had forgotten, but that was over on the, with the French Fries
41:07 MM: So when you got the French Fry order you had to fill the little
41:10 JO: They already filled them. It was filled up to the top, and so we put it on their tray.
That’s, oh I’m glad you asked that question because I’d forgotten that
41:18 MM: I’m just picturing the whole process. It just sound
41:20 JO: That’s right
41:22 MM: Those little, uh, cardboard boats that French Fries and those things would be in
those
41:30 JO: Yeah. Same thing that they are served in today. And hamburgers wrapped up just as
it is wrapped up today.
41:35 MM: Yup. Well that is a wonderful memory. And thank you so much
41:37 JO: Oh, thank you very much, Margaret. And I’m glad to meet you
41:37 MM: I’m really. I’m glad to meet you too. And we’ll see you here at the History Center
41:42 JO: Oh yes. Definitely. Come to Tuesday Talks, oops. I guess we
41:44 MM: I do
recording ends 41:46
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities.
Coverage
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1910s-2010s
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Various
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Subject
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Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Michigan, Lake
Allegan County (Mich.)
Beaches
Sand dunes
Outdoor recreation
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
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Saugatuck-Douglas History Center
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Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
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image/jpeg
application/pdf
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Image
Text
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English
Date
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2018
Oral History
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Dublin Core
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DC-07_SD-OsmanJ-20180721
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Osman, Jane
Date
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2018-07-21
Title
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Jane Osman (Audio interview and transcript), 2018
Description
An account of the resource
Jane discusses working as a waitress in the Saugatuck Douglas area at the Frosted Mug and, later, the Red Wood. She discusses her relationship with the restaurants' owners and the atmosphere of working as a server at that time
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Mason, Margaret (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Allegan County (Mich.)
Outdoor recreation
Waitresses
Oral history
Audio recordings
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Documenting the Histories of Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas, Kutsche Office of Local History
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/13f5370d651dfb43e66c78982656dd1b.mp3
5413f74b61aad5bf7a64e1650b58a1e4
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4c3b8a4dbe6e5d1a674194aebbe6c453.pdf
363a61718e1fc61ef0b5048ab56a64f8
PDF Text
Text
Duane Newmeyer- Interview by Ted Reyda
October 10, 2018
0:03 TR: It’s October 10th 2018 and I’m Ted Reyda. That’s R-e-y-d-a. Here at the old school
house in Douglas, MI, conducting an oral history of Duane Newmeyer N-e-u-m-e-y-e-r. No.
Well
0:20
DN: N-E
0:19
TR: spell it
0:21
DN: N-e-w
0:22 TR: N-e-w oh
0:23 DN: m-e-y-e-r Newmeyer
0:25 TR: Ok Um. Duane, just tell us about how and when you came to the area, or anything.
Yep. How early did you did you first come?
0:35
DN: Oh
0:36
TR: and yeah
0:37
DN: Yeah um fifty—well it was about the late forties
0:41
TR: Late forties—
0:42
DN: Some friends of ours would come, and then we go to the beach.
0:45
TR: You were coming from where?
0:46
DN: Kalamazoo
0:47
TR: Kalamazoo
0:47
DN: yeah
0:48
TR: yeah
0:48 DN so we’d spend the day here and then go to beach and in downs uh town they had a uh
barber shop on the main street, and at that time you could take a shower for a dollar.
[laugh]
1:02 TR: Ah, so
�1:02
DN: So they
1:03
TR: So there were no facilities then at Oval Beach then for fresh water then?
1:06
DN: Oh they did. You could rinse off, but that’s nothing
1:09
TR: Ah.
1:10
DN: like taking a shower you know.
1:10
TR: Oh. Ok.
1:11
DN: And so we did that and then changed our clothes and went to eat and headed back to
Kalamazoo.
1:17
TR: Yeah. When you said “we” who’s--?
1:19
DN: Whoever’s about. Sometimes there was just two of us. Sometimes there was four of
us.
1:23
TR: Friends or family?
1:24
DN: Friends. Yeah
1:25
TR: Oh, friends ok
1:26
DN Yeah. Friends.
1:27
TR: The, uh. At what point did--did you have family here?
1:33
DN: Oh. In the uh, (pause) I think it was in the fifties.
1:42
TR: The fifties.
1:43
DN: Mm My mother and my dad would come
1:45
TR: Ah
1:46
DN: With another couple sometime, and they’d go shopping and then go to Terra for
dinner and
1: 51 TR: Ah
1:51
DN: then go back to Kalamazoo again.
1:54
TR: Ah yeah.
�1:54
DN: And they like Saugatuck too, and they’d come and sometime my mother, my aunt,
and mother’s cousins they would come for the day and uh, go shopping
2:05
TR: Wow
2:06
DN: And then just take a ride to the beach and then go home because we didn’t—
2:11
TR: yeah. At what point did they buy a house
2:15
DN: We bought the house in se- in nineteen sixty-five.
2:18
TR: Nineteen sixty-five
2:19
DN: yeah.
2: 20 TR: That—that was your aunt or your family?
2:22
DN: No, no it was just, we just bought it from uh, um. Well, the Smecks owned it and
then, er, uh their daughter got snot grass. I think, and their daughter got it, and they kept
it for a year, but it kind of bothered her to come to be there. So then she put a sign up for
sale.
2:44
TR: Ah
2:45
DN: And I was going, mother and I were staying downtown at a motel and then I - I said
I was going to see Jim Webster. I don’t know if you remember him.
2:53
TR: No.
2:54
DN: He was the head of the Red Barn Theater.
2:56
TR: Ah! Yes,
2:57
DN: And he lived on
2:57
TR: I heard the name.
2:59
DN: He lived on the end of our street. The Red Barn
3:02
TR: uh huh
3:03
DN: So, uh, so I did. I visited him. I told him the house was for sale, and he said “Yeah,
the people that owned it were killed in an automobile accident”
3:13
TR: Oh.
�3:13
DN: and, uh, so the daughter got it, but she wants to sell it. So I wrote down the number
and then I said he said “Why don’t you call and see?”, and I said, “Well I’ll go home
where we’re staying and talk to mother and see what she wants to do.”
3:27
TR: Uh huh
3:27
DN: So I did later. Mother said “Well, call see what she wants” so we called, she said
yeah, she’d just as soon sell it. She said “give me $8,000. You can have it”
3:37
TR: [laugh] Oh really? In Sixty-five?
3:40
DN: sixty-five
3:41
TR: Uh, describe the house, how old it was or...
3:46
DN: Well, it was uh
3:50
TR: Well, first tell us the address, yeah.
3:51
DN: The address?
3:52
TR: yeah.
3:53
DN: 545 Spear Street. Upper Spear
3:55
TR: Upper Spear? Yes.
3:55
DN: Yeah
3:56
TR: Yes yeah
3:57
DN: and uh so, um, yeah, we bought it in, well we bought it in sixty-five.
4:05
TR: mmhm
4:06
DN: and uh
4:09
TR: Did you, was it in good repair?
4:11
DN: Pardon?
4:11
TR: Was it in good repair?
4:13
DN: Oh yeah, everything was in good repair.
�4:14
TR: Oh. That’s good.
4:16
DN: yeah. We didn’t have to do anything. Just had it inspected you know. You call for
that and also for termites or anything like that, and it was all ok.
4:24
TR: Right.
4:25
DN: And then my uncle come to look at it too from Kalamazoo. And uh see if it was all
right. So everything was ok, so we signed the papers and went to our lawyer and bought
it.
4:37
TR: Uh huh. Did you did you have to get a mortgage?
4:39
DN: No. We paid
4:41
TR: Cash?
4:41
DN: Mother paid cash.
4:42
TR: Ah
4:43
DN: Yeah. So
4:44
TR: They--you were doing painting at that time?
4:45
DN: Oh yeah. Yeah.
4:47
TR: So you had some ready cash
4:49
DN: Yeah.
4:49
TR: [laugh]
4:50
DN: But she paid for it [laugh] and uh
4:53
TR: So how many years did she come up?
4:56
DN: Oh that was sixty-five, and she passed away in seventy-five.
5:00
TR: Ah, so ten years
5:01
DN: Yeah. Ten years
5:03
TR: Then you took possession of it then?
5:05
DN: Yeah. It was an either and or, you know
�5:07
TR: Ah.
5:07
DN: So then after she passed away, but she would come up weekends, and we’d come up
week sometimes stay a week like Christmas time. And, uh, just be here at the cottage it
was kind of nice. And also Thanksgiving we’d come, and it was my mother had a sister
and a brother and it was our turn to have Christmas, er, to have Thanksgiving.
5:29
TR: uh huh
5:29
DN: So we said let’s have it here in Saugatuck if the weather’s nice.
5:33
TR:
mm hm
5:33
DN:
Well, it turned out to be real nice, so they came.
5:36
TR: Ah
5:37
DN: For the afternoon and stayed till about seven o’clock and then went back home.
5:40
TR: Was the house furnished, or you had to furnish it?
5:43
DN: It- we had to furnish it. It had some in there. It had a like a—a couch in there.
5:50
TR: Ah
5:51
DN: Some chairs. And by then we had to furnish it, the rest of it ourselves. The stove and
refrigerator stayed.
5:57
TR: Ah
5:57
DN: And
5:59
TR: And course, was any of this, when did you meet Erwin?
6:02
DN: In sixty-five also.
6:04
TR: Ah
6:05
DN: Yeah
6:07
TR: You met him in Chicago or?
6:08
DN: Ah. Yes. Yeah.
6:11
TR: Ah
�6:12
DN: Yeah I met him—
6:13
TR: Did you used to do work in Chicago? Or just
6:15
DN: Me?
6:16
TR: Yeah.
6:17
DN: Well later on, when I moved there after, em, uh, that was, yeah. Yeah, I don’t know
I forget what year it was.
6:28
TR: Ah. The, uh
6:30
DN: In the eighties I think some place
6:32
TR: So Erwin got to meet your mother then? Did Erwin get to meet your mother?
6:37
DN: Oh yes.
6:37
TR: Ok.
6:38
DN: Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. He met her and uh, so, oh yeah, we got along good,
cause the three of us we had good times you know. So
6:46
TR: Well, what point did you go to the, uh, Blue Tempo? (pause) Before your mother
died or?
6:57
DN: Oh, yeah, before she passed away we had to go sometime
7:00
TR: Did she know you were going there?
7:02
DN: No.
7:02
TR: Did she go there?
7:03
DN: No [laugh]
7:04
TR: Oh. Ok. All right.
7:05
DN: She, I don’t think she knew, but if she did she never said anything.
7:08
TR: Yeah. Ok.
7:09
DN: But then Erwin and I would go, you know, go there sometime and then uh
�7:13
TR: Yeah. What was it like? The- the Blue Tempo?
7:16
DN: Oh, it was kind of nice. It was uh, a nice bar, you know. And uh
7:20
TR: It was down below or
7:22
DN: Down yeah, downstairs site. And then Ted, Toad, ran it, you know
7:26 TR: That’s why sometime people called it Toad’s
7:29
DN: Yeah. There’s Toad, there’s Toad. His last name was Davis.
7:33
TR: Ah
7:34
DN: And then his wife was Nancy.
7:36
TR: Ah
7:37
DN: and [laugh] and they would both work in the bar you know, and that was kind of
nice just to go over and visit with people.
7:43
TR: I hear sometimes it was high water and they had
7:45
DN: yeah [laugh]
7:46
TR: to put planks
7:48
DN: [laugh]
7:48
TR: Yeah.
7:49
DN: Yeah, the water would come up almost to the, uh, to the bar there
7:52
TR: Yeah
7:53
DN: almost to the bar there.
7:54
TR: Did they have music there?
7:55
DN: Have what?
7:56
TR: Did they have music or--
7:58
DN: Oh yeah
7:58
TR: --any kind of entertainment
�7:59
DN: They had music too
7:59
TR: Ah
8:00
DN: Well, mostly records you know
8:01
TR: Records. Ok
8:02
DN: Yeah
8:02
TR: Did people dance?
8:03
DN: Yeah, they would dance a bit
8:05
TR: Ok
8:05
DN: too, but but
8:07
TR: What percentage of the clientele were men? As opposed, were there
8:11
DN: Most all all men
8:12
TR: All men?
8:13
DN: Yeah. Not too many gals at that time.
8:15
TR: Ah
8:15
DN: It was almost all men.
8:16
TR: Ah.
8:17
DN: And then
8:18
TR: Did you, were you ever raided or anything like that
8:21
DN: Get what?
8:21
TR: Raided by the police
8:23
DN: Not that I know of
8:24 TR: Because I think at that point it was illegal to serve homosexuals liquor from like
what I understood.
�8:32 DN: Oh. Could be. I don’t think it—I don’t remember if it was, but I don’t think it was
ever raided
8:37
TR: Ok
8:38
DN: Yeah.
8:39
TR: And they, did they did serve liquor then?
8:41
DN: Oh yeah. Yeah.
8:42
TR: Beer and mixed drinks?
8:43 DN: Yeah. Mixed drinks yeah. Oh yeah, and then they had sandwiches you know and
pretzels.
8:47
TR: Oh, they did
8:47
DN: All that, yeah.
8:48
TR: Sandwiches
8:48
DN: Yeah
8:49
TR: What was your favorite drink?
8:51
DN: A vodka tonic with a wedge of lime
8:54
TR: Ah. Ok.
8:56
DN: So. Uh.
8:57 TR: When’s the last time, did you, were, did you know, I mean, when it closed I mean
did you go to the closing or anything like that?
9:05
DN: No, cause it burned--
9:06
TR: It burned
9:07
DN: --it burned down
9:07
TR: Ok.
9:09 DN: One morning, yeah. Had the news on we did, and it said that the Blue Temple
burned down.
�9:16
TR: Ah
9:16
DN: So then I went, and I think that was in seventy-five too.
9:19
TR: Seventy-five
9:19
DN: The year that my mother passed away, but later, you know. I think it was
9:24
TR: Boy I just
9:24
DN: --seventy-five.
9:25
TR: missed it then because I moved here in seventy-six.
9:27 DN: Oh. Yeah. And uh, it burned and, um, so then we went to look at it, you know and
see it, but most burned
9:34
TR: It was burned to the ground
9:35
DN: Almost yeah. Yeah.
9:37 TR: So is that where that blank lot is right now? No. That’s, isn’t that where the Quonset
hut is? That that building that, the rounded roof building? I forget exactly where it was.
9:49
DN: Yeah. It could be it was at where Quonset hut was. I think
9:53
TR: That’s where they rebuilt
9:54
DN: Yeah. I think that
9:55
TR: Ok.
9:56
DN: That’s where it was. Along there anyway.
9:57
TR: yeah.
9:59
DN: And uh,
10:00 TR: yeah
10:01 DN: so and later on the bar was at, uh, on Butler Street.
10:06 TR: Really?
10:07 DN: Yeah, uh (pause)
�10:11 TR: The Elbow or no?
10:13 DN: Uh, (pause) well it’s in the first block , you know, where, um, is where
Pumpernickel’s is.
10:23 TR: Oh!
10:23 DN: Butler Street, where you come out and the whole street there to your left, you know,
go right to the end, the building is painted bright yellow.
10:31 TR: Ok.
10:33 DN: The Log Cabin
10:34 TR: The Log Cabin
10:34 DN: Yeah Yeah it was
10:35 TR: OK the Log Cabin
10:35 DN: Yeah that’s what it was called. The Log Cabin and then
10:37 TR: So then that
10:38 DN: And that went gay for a while.
10:40 TR: Yeah, East of the Sun was there
10:42 DN: Yeah.
10:43 TR: Ok.
10:45 DN: Later on yeah
10:45 TR: Now it’s something else. Yeah, no. It’s bright yellow
10:47 DN: Yeah.
10:49 TR: I’ll be darned, that’s been a lot of things because I heard at one time that was a meat
market. Way back
10:56 DN: that could be
10:58 TR: yeah all these buildings
10:59 DN: Yeah, uh, Pumpernickel’s used to be a meat market and grocery store
�11:01 TR: I, yes, I knew that.
11:02 DN I remember that
11:05 TR: Yeah. Did you ever go, well certainly you must, you and uh, Duane must have gone
over. Erwin I mean, used to go over to the beach, I would imagine.
11:13 DN: Oh yeah. We went to the beach. Yeah.
11:16 TR: Did you ever wander up into the dunes?
11:18 DN: Once a while, yeah, we go there and walk around. Sometime we’d set up there. Then
again, we’d just stay in the bottom.
11:24 TR: Were there nudists back then?
11:26 DN: Oh yeah.
11:26 TR: Oh yeah.
11:27 DN: Yep. Oh yeah.
11:28 TR: Strangely enough, last week it was warm. I hadn’t been over there for a long time,
and there are still nudists there.
11:33 DN: Yeah.
11:33 TR: I, now, that the city owns north of the Oval to the uh, outlet, uh, you know, I
thought, well they’re not going to do that anymore, but there were nude men so.
11:43 DN: Oh. Really?
11:45 TR: And they said in the summer you watch out for tour—as they call tourists—but
they’re still out there.
11:49 DN: Oh.
11:49 TR: And that’s nice to hear because of
11:53 DN: Yeah.
11:53 TR: It’s a very nice thing to enjoy in the summer
11:54 DN: yeah. It was nice years ago you know
�11:57 TR: yeah
11:57 DN: going up there and then, yeah, there’d be about six or seven of us sometime. You
know we’d just, where the parking lot is, just walk in the sand a little bit. Like Bob Birch, and
Bob Harris, and Bill D. Young
12:07 TR: Yes
12:08 DN: We’d all be in the circle, then we play cards
12:11 TR: Yes! You’re part of that group
12:13 DN: Yeah.
12:14 TR: And I, we used to get really sunburned, not sun burned, but sun tanned there
12:17 DN: Yeah.
12:18 TR: because they were always playing cards
12:20 DN: Cards, we, uh, played cards and it was kind of fun and then course then, later on, I
got an umbrella.
12:26 TR: Yeah
12:27 DN: Because I couldn’t take the sun-12:28 TR: Oh I -12:28 DN:-- too long I’d just burn to a crisp. That or I’d have to go up to the concession stand
and set there for about half hour.
12:34 TR: Yeah.
12:34 DN: And then come back to the beach.
12:36 TR: Yeah. It’s funny. I used to go swimming around three o’clock, you know, during the
summer, and no longer a, uh, group there.
12:45 DN: No. No.
12:46 TR: Most of them moved away or died or something like that
12:47 DN: Yeah. Oh yeah.
12:49 TR: So they were an, an institution. They would always observe who was walking down.
�12:54 DN: Yeah.
12:56 TR: to the private area-12:57 DN: Yeah, yeah we could see it
12:57 TR: --of beaches
12:59 DN: we weren’t too far from there and,
12:59 TR: Yeah.
13:01 DN: at that time uh, well the other owners, they would charge to go down there.
13:05 TR: Yes.
13:06 DN: In the other end
13:07 TR: And that’s why people then felt safer, because
13:09 DN: Yeah. Yeah.
13:10 TR: Nobody would bother them.
13:11 DN: Yeah.
13:12 TR: But, I, yeah, I moved here in seventy-six, and I was walking along the beach towards
the outlet and, uh, said “Why are those men looking at me from up in the dunes?” And I said,
“Oh. Oh dear”
13:26 DN: [laugh] Yeah.
13:26 TR: [laugh] Now I know!
13:27 DN: No. Yeah. [laugh]
13:30 TR: And, uh, at, you know, uh, I guess oxbow they used to have all kinds of parties and
things
13:36 DN: Yeah. Down there. The oxbow. Yeah.
13:37 TR: The far end
13:38 DN: yeah. Yeah.
�13:39 TR: Type of thing.
13:40 DN: yeah.
13:40 TR: Where did you meet Duane?
13:41 DN: What do you mean?
13:42 TR: Erwin! I’m sorry
13:43 DN: Yeah.
13:44 TR: I’m switching the names.
13:45 DN: In Chicago.
13:46 TR: In Chicago.
13:37 DN: It was a friend of mine. He was staying with a friend of mine.
13:49 TR: Ah.
13:50 DN: And, uh, I had, uh, I would talk to him on the phone because I would call my friend
13:55 TR: Ah.
13:55 DN: But he’d be gone sometime and Erwin would answer. So I would talk with him. And
then, I’d just say, “Come up some time to Saugatuck.” He says “Yeah, maybe eventually.” And
then, uh,
14:06 TR: Erwin, uh, Erwin had never been to Saugatuck?
14:10 DN: Oh yeah!
14:11 TR: Oh?
14:11 DN: He used to come up, yeah.
14:12 TR: So he knew of it.
14:13 DN: Oh yeah.
14:13 TR: Ok.
14:14 DN: He would come up with other friends before I even knew it.
�14:16 TR: Ah. Ok.
14:17 DN: And then, uh, maybe I showed you pictures of it. He had a red corvette?
14:21 TR: Yeah.
14:21 DN: And that was parked in, uh, pictures of, uh ship and shore
14:26 TR: Yeah.
14:27 DN: and uh
14:30 TR: Yeah.
14:30 DN: But then one, oh, one, during the week, my friend would call me and say that his
boss had tickets for Hello, Dolly.
14:40 TR: Oo
14:40 DN: Two of them, but he had to go out of town him and his wife, so, he gave them to
Wes. So we called me, would I want to come in to Hello, Dolly ? I said sure, so I came
14:50 TR: Sure
14:51 DN: I come in Friday night and the, um, mm, ah, musical was Saturday.
14:56 TR: Ah.
14:56 DN: So then I met Erwin after that. Come home.
14:59 TR: Was their place in Chicago downtown or Northside? Where were they living in
Chicago?
15:05 DN: Uh, yeah, I can’t remember the name of it. Yeah. Uh.
15:10 TR: But it was convenient to-15:11 DN: Oh yeah down there
15:12 TR: -- The theater district?
15:13 DN: yeah. Downtown some place
15:15 TR: So you used to go in to Chicago before the four lane. How long did it take you to get
there without the express way?
�15:22 DN: Yeah the expressway. Oh, about two and half hours, three hours.
15:28 TR: Really?
15:28 DN: Yeah. If there wasn’t too much traffic.
15:29 TR: Oh. Oh yeah.
15:30 DN: Because he lived on North Avenue, so that was nice. Cause I would just stay on the
expressway until I got to North Avenue and then get off, in two blocks I was by the house.
15:37 TR: Ok.
15:38 DN: Yeah.
15:41 TR: The, and when did you move back here permanently? From Chicago?
15:44 DN: Back here? Uh, to Saugatuck, (pause) uh,
15:52 TR: Well, we’ll think of it, yeah.
15:54 DN: Yeah, maybe
15:54 TR: The uh
15:55 DN: in the nineties?
15:56 TR: Erwin stayed in Chicago working then?
15:58 DN: Oh yeah. He was there, and then I was working in Kalamazoo, and then my mother
was living.
16:01 TR: Ah.
16:03 DN: And we had the apartment house next door with twelve apartments, so I couldn’t
live, leave there. You know.
16:07 TR: Ah.
16:08 DN: Because it was busy keeping those up, you know? So then after she passed away it
was seventy-five, and then, I think in the eighties someplace, then I moved to Chicago.
16:18 TR: Ah.
16:19 DN: And I was there almost eight years.
�16:21 TR: Ah.
16:22 DN: And he sold the house there, and we moved to Saugatuck.
16:24 TR: Ok. That. That’s when it happened.
16:26 DN: Yeah. And so we’d been here and
16:30 TR: And congratulations. I understand, uh, the two of you married not too long ago.
16:37 DN: Yeah. Yeah. And yeah. In, um, January.
16:43 TR: January of
16:45 DN: 20
16:46 TR: 2018.
16:47 DN: Yeah.
16:48 TR: Yeah. Well. Congratulations.
16:49 DN: Yeah.
16:50 TR: It’s unfortunate that Erwin is no longer with us.
16:53 DN: Yeah.
16:54 TR: I enjoyed meeting him, and, uh, yeah.
16:58 DN: Yeah. Yeah, I really miss him. You know? He passed away the fifth of February.
17:03 TR: Yeah.
17:03 DN: Almost eight months. Nine months. Eight months already.
17:06 TR: Well, you always will miss him. There’s no doubt about it.
17:07 DN: Yeah. Yeah.
17:10 TR: That’s, uh.
17:11 DN: Yeah. And things come up, you know
17:12 TR: Exactly.
�17:13 DN: That we did and think about it. Oh yeah. It’s just a different life all together.
17:17 TR: Oh.
17:17 DN: You know.
17:19 TR: But, what age are you right now?
17:21 DN: (pause). I’m, uh, eighty-six
17:24 TR: Eighty-six? And you’re still working painting?
17:26 DN: [laugh]
17:28TR: I I can’t believe it. Because
17:29 DN: Little bit.
17:30 TR: I’m seventy-five, and I want to give up.
17:32 DN: Yeah.
17:33 TR: gardening yeah.
17:34 DN: Oh yeah. Well, that’s harder work too.
17:35 TR: Well painting, to me, also
17:38 DN: Oh yeah. If it was a lot of hard work, I wouldn’t do it.
17:41 TR: Yeah.
17:42 DN: But this is just touch up spots.
17:43 TR: Ah.
17:44 DN: For Larry on the wood work, and
17:45 TR: The Pumpernickel. Yeah.
17:47 DN: Yeah. At his house.
17:49 TR: Oh yeah. At his house
17:49 DN: I’m working at his house.
�17:50 TR: He’s still live Upper Spear?
17:51 DN: Yeah.
17:52 TR: Uh yeah.
17:53 DN: Just down the other end of us. Yeah.
17:54 TR: Ok.
17:55 DN: And uh,
17:56 TR: Oh, I see.
17:56 DN: Yeah. And because he wants eventually, I think the end of this month he’s done at
the restaurant.
18:01 TR: They close for the winter?
18:03 DN: Oh no. He sold it.
18:04 TR: He- I did not know that.
18:06 DN: Yeah. He sold the business, and he sold the building.
18:09 TR: I’ll be damned.
18:10 DN: Last year already. But he agreed to with the new owners to help them out and
18:14 TR: Yeah.
18:15 DN: and all this and that
18:16 TR: Will they do you think they’ll keep the same food?
18:20 DN: I don’t know.
18:21 TR: and menu?
18:21 DN: Yeah. They want to, I guess, have a restaurant, and eventually they want to have
dinners at night.
18:26 TR: Oh
18:27 DN: What I understand, so how true that is I don’t know.
�18:29 TR: With more and more people staying in the B and B’s, they’re looking for places
18:34 DN: Yeah.
18:35 TR: Course Hercules closed, but the.
18:37 DN: Yeah.
18:38 TR: Was sold and they are going to, and somebody else is taking over that. So.
18:42 DN: Yeah and well for a while, um, maybe three, four years ago, Larry had started for
breakfast or for dinners at night. But that only lasted one season. And he didn’t do it again. I
don’t know
18:53 TR: Yeah.
18:54 DN: It didn’t pay out or what
18:56 TR: Getting help consistently and
19:00 DN: Yeah
19:01 TR: All that, boy, it
19:01 DN: It’s hard.
19:02 TR: Tough business.
19:03 DN: yeah.
19L93 TR: Uh.
19:04 DN: So he said too, he wanted the house to look nice too, and he put in new carpeting in
the dining room
19:09 TR: Will he sell the house, also do you think?
19:11 DN: He wants to sell, excuse me. He wants to sell it
19:14 TR: And move away?
19:15 DN: Yeah. They’ll move to, I think it’s somewhat close to Detroit some places. He has a
sister and relatives there.
19:21 TR: Ah
�19:22 DN: And they said he could go there, and Jenny, she doesn’t have many. She only has a
brother, and he’s a priest in New Orleans.
19:31 TR: Wow
19:32 DN: So, but he says, something happens to him well then at least there’ll be some family
around for Jenny.
19:38 TR: Yeah
19:38 DN: And, uh, so, but, then all last week he said, well after they, he’s done with it he said
I think they’re just going to stay for a while, relax, and he said, I said, “Well how long you had
the restaurant?” He said “thirty years.”
19:53 TR: Yes.
19:54 DN: That’s a long time. So. He said, “Just relax” and, maybe they’ll wait till spring then
to put the house up for sale.
20:00 TR: The. You must be, one of the original, or, person who has lived in Upper Spear area
the longest, I would imagine.
20:11 DN: Um. Now I am, yes.
20:12 TR: Now.
20:13 DN: Yeah
20:14 TR: Well, one of your neighbors was Burr Tillstrom
20:16 DN: Yeah.
20:18 TR: And uh,
20:19 DN: Yeah he was
20:20 TR: Interesting character
20:21 DN: Yeah
20:21 TR: Somebody listening to the tape who don’t know who that is, he created uh, the
whole Kukla, Fran, and Ollie thing in Chicago
20:28 DN: Yeah
�20:29 TR: And I remember from my childhood, and we have a memorial to him in our
downtown Saugatuck park, but yeah, describe his structure up there.
20:40 DN: The house?
20:41 TR: Yeah.
20:42 DN: It was all, it was a nice old house. It was all barn wood inside. He, uh, had to fix it
up.
20:46 TR: Was it originally a barn, do you think?
20:47 DN: I think so, yeah
20:49 TR: Yeah.
20:50 DN: And then there was barn wood limber, and then he put more in. Well, Jim Webster
did a lot of that first.
20:55 TR: Ah. They got the man from the theater
20:56 DN: Yeah, he did most of it. And that burst after Jim died, and they had it for sale and,
uh,
21:04 TR: Burr
21:05 DN: Burr Tillstrom bought it
21:07 TR: Yeah
21:07 DN: He lived in Chicago, and when I moved to Chicago, and I did painting for him in his
condo
21:13 TR: Yes
21:13 DN: Over there too. And uh
21:17 TR: Describe what we had a conversation about all the little crevices in his house. What
were in, in these crevices then?
21:23 DN: Well they found a lot of different things in there I guess. I uh, papers and pictures
and
21:30 TR: Well, from what I, when I was up there, all, when he needed a new Kuklapolitan
character, Ollie or what was, I’m forgetting some of the characters. He couldn’t throw them
away. He, he would put them in little cubbyholes in the walls.
�21:48 DN: Oh, that that could be yeah.
21:49 TR: He still had all the characters
21:50 DN: Yeah
21:51 TR: that he
21:53 DN: I think
21:53 TR: refurbished it
21:54 DN: Yeah. Because later on, after Burr died, and then Jim and David bought the house.
22:00 TR: Yeah.
22:01 DN: For uh
22:03 TR: Yeah
22:04 DN: For uh
22:04 TR: Yes
22:05 DN: to rent out. Then they found a lot of stuff in there I guess of Burr’s, you know?
22:08 TR: Yes.
22:09 DN: So
22:10 TR: The, uh, from what I understand he was Christian Science
22:13 DN: Yeah
22:13 TR: and he didn’t want to mow his lawn or anything because of insects and frogs and
things he might kill them so, you know. It probably looked a little disheveled, yeah.
22:23 DN: Yeah
22:24 TR: [laugh]
22:24 DN: but he would cut it sometime
22:25 TR: Oh, ok.
�22:26 DN: Cause sometime I’d come up weekend just, or Saturday, and then have to go back to
Kalamazoo if we were going to do something. And then I’d cut the grass and so, like that, and
he’d be there cutting his grass, and he’d come. He’d wave like this, “Come on over here. I just
made a pie.”
22:40 TR: Oh
22:40 DN: So then I’d come over, he had a deck in the back.
22:43 TR: Yeah.
22:43 DN: On the back side there. So then we’d sit and have pie, then I’d go back cutting grass,
and he did too.
22:47 TR: Oh yeah. When I stopped by he was baking bread and said “Oh you’ve got to stay
for some fresh baked bread”
22:53 DN: Yeah.
22:54 TR: It was very good
22:55 DN: Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. He was kind of nice. And then he had a dog, Emily
22:58 TR: Yeah. The hound dog
22:59 DN: Yeah (laugh)
23:00 TR: Yes. Cause I was over there where he was just as disturbed as I’ve ever seen him
because he took him over to Oval Beach, and let him loose. And the dog just chased something,
and he was calling and calling. And we all went out trying to find the dog.
23:16 DN: Yeah.
23:18 TR: And then he just waited, and it finally came back. I guess it got hungry, but he was
so disturbed over that dog.
23:24 DN: Yeah. I suppose.
23:25 TR: Wouldn’t listen to him
23:26 DN: Yeah. Yeah. He was quite a pet for him, you know.
23:29 TR: I know it’s interesting when they, uh, I think it was the Saugatuck Douglas
Women’s Club got together that money to build that little, uh, to make that bronze sculpture of
that.
�23:29 DN: Yeah
23:32 TR: Young girl with a puppet. He said he never wanted any memorial
23:46 DN: Oh.
23:46 TR: And, and uh, I remember him saying that. I guess that the people of the town
thought that he needed to be remembered.
23:52 DN: Remembered yeah. But
23:54 TR: And you think about my nieces and nephews and grand nieces and nephew, they
hardly even know about him, so
24:00 DN: No. yeah. It’s true
24:02 TR: It needs documentation
24:03 DN: Yeah
24:04 TR: and the, uh, Historical Society has a lot of things from it
24:09 DN: from- from- yeah.
24:10 TR: I got one of his old—he did a couple little performances here in town
24:15 DN: Oh
24:17 TR: And, uh, very enjoyable
24:18 DN: Yeah.
24:19 TR: And, uh, he left some of the stage work and
24:21 DN: Yeah
24:21 TR: And there’s two other guys that live in Douglas, uh, I gave it to them. Because they
were going to refurbish it and all that, but they said they’d loan it back to the, what we now call
the History Center. Any time we wanted to, to do a show, so. One of the amazing character,
that’s for sure.
24:39 DN: Yeah, he was nice and one oh, that one weekend Fran was up and some of the other
guys and then, it was kind of nice too.
24:47 TR: Oh yeah.
�24:48 DN: And then mother and I had him up for dinner.
24:50 TR: Oh, really?
24:51 DN: All of them, and then for dessert we went to his house and showed pictures of
Kuklu, Fran, and Ollie.
24:56 TR: Oh good
24:58 DN: When he first started and all this, so that was kind of interesting
25:01 TR: Yeah
25:02 DN: Yeah, so.
25:03 TR: I wonder when he first started coming to Saugatuck. Uh. Don’t know. Yeah.
25:09 DN: Yeah, well, no. I, um, no and I can’t even remember the year he bought the house
either.
25:15 TR: He didn’t have it when you, when your family bought it
25:18 DN: No
25:19 TR: No it was after that.
25:20 DN: No. No. Jim Webster owned it at that time.
25:21 TR: Ok and
25:23 DN: When we bought it, yeah. Yeah. We bought our house. And later, Jim, uh, I don’t
know was around four or five years, and then he passed away.
25:31 TR: Ah
25:32 DN: had cancer I think
25:32 TR: Yeah.
25:33 DN: And then he worked at the Red Barn and um
25:36 TR: had a lot of interesting, a lot of local people that performed there.
25:42 DN: Yeah
25:44 TR: At the Red Barn and for our summer theater
�25:45 DN: Oh yeah. Red Barn Theater there yeah
25:47 TR: Yeah
25:47 DN: That was kind of nice a place, you know?
25:50 TR: Oh exactly, especially when you knew the people and
25:51 DN: Yeah
25:52 TR: Playing characters that, wow, I didn’t think they were that good and
25:55 DN: Yeah it was kind of nice
25:56 TR: There was a couple of them now, I’m forgetting the names, their children did a little
bit of the open stock and went on to do television and various things.
26:05 DN: Yeah.
26:05 TR: I can’t remember the name now, but I’m sure it’s been documented somewhere.
But, I , yeah.
26:12 DN: Yeah it was nice.
26:13 TR: Glad to see it, it went on, well I guess it’s folded now. Isn’t it? Are they going to
use that?
26:19 DN: What’s that? The-26:21 TR: They were going to do a brewery
26:22 DN: Yeah they’re going to make a brewery out of the Red Barn. That’s a shame
26:25 TR: So
26:25 DN: That’s a shame. Too bad.
26:27 TR: So they’re not having summer stock there
26:28 DN: No
26:28 TR: Then we have the, you know, SCA,
26:30 DN: Yeah
�26:31 TR: the Saugatuck Center for the Arts, so
26:32 DN: Yeah.
26:33 TR: Theater continues, but
26:35 DN: Oh yeah. It’s not like the old-26:37 TR: No
26:37 DN: Red Barn
26:37 TR: They—they get professionals
26:40 DN: Yeah.
26:40 TR: coming in
26:41 DN: Yeah
26:41 TR: Oh, I’m sure the Red Barn had some professionals.
26:44 DN: Yeah, but not all, no no. But it was interesting
26:47 TR: Oh, absolutely.
26:48 DN: We enjoyed it.
26:48 TR: A lot of the summer resort communities
26:50 DN: Yeah
26:51 TR: had theater
26:52 DN: Theater, like then Augusta too. Remember? Augusta had a theater too
26:56 TR: yeah.
26:57 DN: And that was nice too, but, oh, like the one here in the summer was awful hot and
muggy. It was hot in there. That fan
27:03 TR: Oh
27:04 DN: Spin, but oh. It was hot
�27:07 TR: Yeah. I don’t know if you, I’ve been trying to get information, um, Tower Marine,
there used to be a tower. And that’s why they called it Tower Marine. Do you remember that?
27:19 DN: No. I don’t remember that.
27:19 TR: No. You don’t?
27:20 DN: No.
27:20 TR: Do you remember that big Quonset hut type of building where they now have the
big pole barn where they store the boats? I saw pictures, and the, um, Petersons told me they
bought it. And, uh, it used to have, they used to have dances and entertainment there, and they
had that little rooms that you could rent. Little rooms. But you didn’t, you don’t remember
anything about it then?
27:50 DN: I don’t remember that no.
27:51 TR: Ok (pause) What restaurants did your family go to? Did you cook at home, or did
you go out?
27:56 DN: Oh we cooked and we went out to eat. They had different ones um, well the Butler
was always there.
28:04 TR: Ah ha.
28:05 DN: And um, I don’t remember the upstairs. They had an upstairs to the Butler years ago.
28:11 TR: Yep.
28:12 DN: And
28:12 TR: And they, unfortunately tore it down.
28:13 DN: That down, yeah. It got bad, so they tore that down and
28:17 TR: Yeah
28:17 DN: And oh there was-28:18 TR: Changed it quite a bit, yeah.
28:20 DN: Yeah.
28:21 TR: And there was Terra. Did you ever go to Terra?
�28:22 DN: And Terra, we’d go to Terra, and there was a restaurant, well, there still is a
restaurant right next to the drug store? On that side (pause)
28:34 TR: Ah. The Embassy? Or
28:37 DN: Embassy is now. I guess. It was called something else
28:39 TR: Oh. Of course
28:40 DN: And a couple ran that then. They had good food.
28:42 TR: Ah
28:42 DN: They had homemade dressings.
28:44 TR: Oh.
28:44 DN: And then, but I can’t remember the name of it.
28:48 TR: Yeah. Did your family ever have a boat?
28:51 DN: No. No.
28:52 TR: Oh.
28:53 DN: No No
28:54 TR: Not boating people
28:55 DN: No [laugh]. No they didn’t. See my dad never got, um, I mean lived in the house in
Saugatuck.
28:01 TR: No?
28:03 DN: He passed away before
28:03 TR: Ah.
28:04 DN: He died in, ah (pause) fifty, fifty-eight. I think it was.
29:10 TR: uh huh.
29:11 DN: fifty-seven, fifty-eight. So.
29:13 TR: Do you think he would have approved of you guys having a place here?
�29:20 DN: Oh, I think he would have. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. But they would come here, Mother
and Dad, and go just for the day. Couple of times they stayed overnight in a place too. Then
they’d shop a little bit and.
29:35 TR: ah.
29:35 DN: Um
29:36 TR: What did your father do?
29:37 DN: He was a barber
29:38 TR: Ah.
29:39 DN: On Michigan Avenue there in Kalamazoo. He had two, uh, people working with
him.
29:42 TR: Ah. But you mentioned that you’d come up here and get a haircut up here? (pause).
I thought you said that. No?
29:50 DN: No. No.
29:50 TR: Oh, I’m sorry
29:51 DN: No. There was a barber shop here on the main street
29:53 TR: Yes!
29:54 DN: We would go there to take a shower
29:56 TR: Ok. That’s what you meant.
29:58 DN: Yeah. And it cost a dollar
29:59 TR: Ah.
30:01 DN: At that time to take a shower
30:02 TR: I remember they had the barber pole
30:05 DN: Yeah
30:05 TR: I moved here in seventy-six, they
30:07 DN: Oh. Yeah.
�30:07 TR: Then they built, I think, that’s where those clothing stores are now.
30:10 DN: Yeah. mm
30:11 TR: There was a news stand near by
30:12 DN: Yeah and then, Don Poll- Polder, remember him
30:17 TR: Yes
30:18 DN: He had a real nice store there too
30:20 TR: Yep
30:22 DN: Real nice store, couple doors down there.
30:22 TR: With the architect John Hurst, I helped redo some of those buildings.
30:26 DN: OK.
30:26 TR: When I, I decided I didn’t want to design
30:29 DN: Yeah
30:30 TR: Office furniture anymore
30:31 DN: Yeah. Yeah Don was a nice person too. And I did a lot of work at his cottage.
30:35 TR: I would imagine
30:36 DN: Painting and
30:38 TR: Yeah. Yeah.
30:39 DN: And also in Chicago
30:40 TR: Ah, ah.
30:42 DN: The, um, his friend (pause) Lauderdale was his last name. But I think he got the
building. Kind of right across the street.
30:58 TR: Yes.
30:58 DN: From Don Poller’s place.
31:00 TR: Yes.
�31:00 DN: That building right next to um
31:02 TR: Kilwins?
31:02 DN: That fudge place
31:04 TR: Yes! Yes! That’s the building I helped work on.
31:06 DN: Ok.
31:07 TR: With John Hurst, yes.
31:08 DN: Yeah. And I think he, oh, Don left to him that building
31:12 TR: Yes. Yes. And uh,
31:15 DN: Rick Lauderdale I think his name was.
31:18 TR: It’s interesting that when they tore into that building, a lot of those buildings along
there interconnected with door ways.
31:25 DN: Yeah.
31:25 TR: You know. I guess because people owned all the buildings, and they wanted access
to the and all that. There was all these inner workings and walls and really crazy stuff. Yeah.
31:36 DN: Yeah. I guess so.
31:37 TR: I found a board in there that said the Saugatuck Lumber Company. And they’ve
been trying to research, where was the Saugatuck Lumber Company? It was printed on a board.
31:47 DN: Oh
31:47 TR: And so, at the point there must have been a company
31:52 DN: Yeah. Yeah.
31:53 TR: selling lumber, and don’t know if they made it here.
31:57 DN: Yeah. I don’t either.
31:58 TR: A lot of changes that’s for sure.
32:00 DN: Yeah.
�32:02 TR: What’s some of the biggest changes do you think you’ve seen in the area? Over the
period of time?
32:08 DN: Oh. Oh, the town and the people
32:11 TR: Yeah oh of course. New people
32:13 DN: Yeah.
32:14 TR: But how about, well, of course shops.
32:16 DN: Yeah, the shops have changed a lot too.
32:20 TR: I- I was just I guess I’m getting at the condos. Condos became a new thing
32:25 DN: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah condos
32:26 TR: Yeah Forrest Morris was one of the first to buy into the that, uh, I’ve forgotten now
what it was called. The one on Francis Street. That old building, the yellow condos. It was the
first condo conversion.
32:39 DN: Oh
32:39 TR: That building was abandoned, yeah.
32:43 DN: Oh.
32:43 TR: It was redone, and they went trying to sell it, and they made the condo association.
So, you know. So, it was one of the first.
32:50 DN: Yeah.
32:50 TR: It was only four units
32:52 DN: On Francis Street up the hill
32:55 TR: Yes
32:55 DN: Yeah, yeah. Um, there’s still condos there
32:58 TR: Yes. They, it seems like every three years they’re resold [laughs]
33:02 DN: Oh yeah.
33:03 TR: The turnover is just amazing
�33:04 DN: Yeah.
33:05 TR: The real estate people made it. They have such a prob- a problem with water. You
said you have a Michigan basement, but they kept, there’s clay up there, and it would hold in the
water. And actually there’s a stream up there that went down that went down the hill. So they
just filled the basement in. Yeah.
33:21 DN: Oh.
33:21 TR: [laugh]
33:22 DN: Wow.
33:24 TR: Just decided it was too hard to keep it.
33:24 DN: Hard to keep it.
33:25 TR: dry type of thing
33:28 DN: yeah. I’m surprised they didn’t have, uh,
33:32 TR: termites and rot
33:33 DN: No. Basement, what do you call that?
33:35 TR: Michigan basement.
33:36 DN: Yeah, but, I, uh, Jim and David next to us too. They’ve got a basement too, but they
got uh, to keep their water out. What do you call it?
33:48TR: Sump pump
33:49 DN: A sump pump
33:49 TR: Yeah
33:50 DN: They had that in there
33:50 TR: I think they had those. The, the problem, well, your neighbors have a newer house
and it’s poured concrete.
33:58 DN: Yeah.
33:59 TR: That was cinderblock I think, no it was stone. Old stone.
34:04 DN: Oh.
�34:05 TR: Just, just to the east of it, and the society has pictures of it, there was a Victorian
house. A two story Victorian house
34:12 DN: Oh
34:13 TR: And I forgot what year it, it was torn down. Uh, but that’s where their lawn is.
There was actually a house there.
34:20 DN: Oh well.
34:21 TR: And then, yeah. And when they were doing some renovation Forest said they found
in there uh, because they rented the rooms when the big steam ships would come in, to dance, to
dance at the Pavilion.
34:34 DN: Yeah.
34:35 TR: They would rent the rooms because the people would stay the night or the weekend
or something like that.
34:40 DN: Yeah.
34:40 TR: And he found postcards that people were writing about how much they, well, that
they they had to get their wardrobe together to come to Saugatuck to go dancing and to meet
somebody and
34:54 DN: yeah
34:54 TR: all that type of that. So.
34:56 DN: Yeah, then in the Pavilion later they had the restaurant down stairs
34:58 TR: mhm.
34:59 DN: Remember that
35:00 TR: So you actually were in the Pavilion?
35:03 DN: Oh yes, uh. Yeah they used to have roller skating and dancing
35:06 TR: Really?
35:08 DN: And roller skating
35:09 TR: Ah
�35:09 DN: And then uh, later on downstairs they had a restaurant. And that was good food
down there.
35:15 TR: ah
35:16 DN: Lot of big boats would come a cruising down there, go eat
35:18 TR: Yes, they would raft off
35:20 DN: And uh, yeah.
35:22 TR: Do you ever remember the um, outdoor theater that they had, open air? That might
have been after, uh, before your time
35:31 DN: No
35:33 TR: Yeah, but just down from there, they showed pictures without a building.
35:38 DN: Oh.
35:38 TR: Just a screen and chairs. Yeah.
35:40 DN: Close to the Pavilion there?
35:41 TR: Yeah, it’s close to the Pavilion.
35:45 DN: Well they could have that I forgot it too, because
35:46 TR: Yeah.
35:47 DN: Because at that time too, we weren’t living here. I just come weekends.
35:51 TR: Weekends.
35:52 DN: Sometime, and sometime just for the day, you know.
35:54 TR: Yeah
35:54 DN: And then we didn’t move here til, uh,
35:57 TR: Did they charge at Oval Beach? Back
36:01 DN: No. No then.
36:01 TR: No?
�36:02 DN: I don’t think so.
36:03 TR: Ah
36:03 DN: We didn’t have to pay. I don’t think. I don’t remember, but I don’t think so.
36:06 TR: The high way was there to go there.
36:09 DN: The what?
36:10 TR: Uh, they had the uh
36:23 DN: Road to go to the beach?
36:14 TR: Yeah
36:14 DN: Oh yeah. That was there
36:15 TR: Because that, at some point you had to take a boat to go all the way around to it.
And then I forget what year they actually built that
36:22 DN: Oh
36:22 TR: That road. That windy road that
36:24 DN: Yeah. I just remember the road going up there. And the road was on both sides. I
mean you go and it was on either side
36:31 TR: It was Oval
36:31 DN: But now it’s closed off
36:32 TR: Yeah
36:33 DN: If you remember that part of the road.
36:35 TR: Yeah
36:35 DN: And then uh, yeah. That’s um
36:38 TR: Well, let’s talk about the changes. It’s sort of sad to see the um Presbyterian Camp,
there’s now houses.
36:44 DN: Yeah.
�36:45 TR: Gated community and north of the channel, that’s going to be houses they’re
building, so.
36:49 DN: Yeah. That’s all changed. Yeah.
36:52 TR: The beauty was that you could go to Oval Beach and look North and south and not
see a house.
36:56 DN: Yeah
36:57 TR: and you thought, boy this is just as wild as you want.
37:01 DN: And that was nice then.
37:03 TR: Yes
37:DN: And now you get houses and
37:06 TR: I know. And gated communities meaning yeah. You got to come by invitation and
37:11 DN: yeah
37:12 TR: all that.
37:13 DN: yeah
37:14 TR: Which is, unfortunate
37:15 DN: yeah and Gilkamy Gated community is nice now, but it was
37:20 TR: Yes
37:21 DN: More years ago
37:23 TR: Because I’d go out there. Chat with somebody. Lay in the sun
37:27 DN: Yeah.
37:27 TR: You know. And they got to be friends.
37:30 DN: Yeah
37:30 TR: We didn’t go to, I didn’t go to bars, you know, but you eventually got to know
people and
37:36 DN: Yeah
�37:38 TR: Yeah. And you’d have them for dinners and things like that.
37:41 DN: Yeah. There was more people around then, gay people now.
37:45 TR: As I say, they’re still up there.
37:49 DN: Oh yeah.
37:50 TR: And nude in the dunes
37:51 DN: Oh yeah.
37:51 TR: So that’s pretty good
37:53 DN: Oh there’s still a lot of them here you know. In the bar, you know
37:55 TR: Well that was a fear, you know, if they stop, if they bought Oval Beach and stopped
nudity there, which I guess the city would, technically has said that, uh, because if you read the
signs, that gay people wouldn’t come here, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.
38:14 DN: No, no.
38:15 TR: Of course we have the, you know in Douglas now, the Dunes
38:19 DN: Yeah,
38:20 TR: uh, Bar. But I’m too old to go to bars, so
38:23 DN: Yeah, me too. I don’t go anymore, you know.
38:26 TR: They say “What’s that old man doing here” and [laughs]
38:28 DN: yeah [laughs]. No. I haven’t been there for a long time. We used to go sometime,
and I guess I told just for the Halloween party
38:36 TR: Yes
38:37 DN: To see the costumes and that was kind of nice
38:40 TR: Well Douglas has an amazing parade.
38:42 DN: Yeah
38:44 TR: You know, Halloween
�38:44 DN: Halloween too
38:47 TR: Yeah it was nice for a while, and this is now the seventies. Is that, I forget what
night. People would bring some kind of food to pass.
38:57 DN: Oh
38:57 TR: And you would buy a drink, and there was all kinds of snacks at the Dunes.
39:00 DN: Oh
39:01 TR: And this is when Carl and Larry owned it.
39:02 DN: Yeah.
39:03 TR: And, um, much more friendly.
39:05 DN: Yeah.
39:06 TR: And of course Carl and Larry already had a restaurant there for a while
39:10 DN: Well, yeah,
39:11 TR: And then yeah.
39:11 DN: Yeah, they had good food at the restaurant.
39:13 TR: And then the tea dances
39:14 DN: Yeah.
39:15 TR: Oh my gosh. [laugh]
39:16 DN: That was kind of fun
39:18 TR: Woah, bumper to bumper people
39:18 DN: We used to go to them
39:20 TR: And I
39:21 DN: yeah
39:21 TR: I was there when Eartha Kitt came.
39:22 DN: Oh
�39:24 TR: You know actually Eartha Kitt. The singer.
39:26 DN: Yeah.
39:27 TR: And, uh, she was really fantastic but uh, and I guess, I would imagine they would
still have tea dances, but then, you know.
39:33 DN: Yeah,
39:34 TR: Again, I don’t go over there. Yeah.
39:37 DN: Yeah. We used to go once in a while to the tea dance too. That was a big crowd for
that
39:43 TR: Yeah.
39:43 DN: mm
39:44 TR: The, um, so, did you ever, did you go away for your sum—for your winters?
39:52 DN: We used to
39:54 TR: go down
39:54 DN: Mother and I before I met Erwin we used to go to, well my folks always went
39:59 TR: Ah.
40:00 DN: In the winter for maybe a month or two.
40:02 TR: Ah
40:02 DN: Sarasota? And then later on
40:05 TR: That’s where we have friends, out of Siesta Key.
40:08 DN: Yeah. That’s nice. Uh,
40:09 TR: Yeah
40:10 DN: And then after she passed away, then course then Erwin and I would go, um, for
two, three, four weeks. And later when we retired we would spend almost the whole winter there.
40:20 TR: Ah.
�40:21 DN: We’d go and, um, right after Thanksgiving and come back in, uh, April
40:26 TR: Yeah. For
40:28 DN: Marco Island
40:29 TR: For, for everybody describe the cars you—you drive
40:34 DN: [laughs]
40:35 TR: Because everybody who knows you can see you coming.
40:39 DN: Yeah
40:39 TR: And the reason is the, the type of car you have
40:43DN: Yeah
40:44 TR: What year
40:45 DN: Yeah, I don’t, I, um, did I ever show you those pictures of the convertible?
40:50 TR: You did.
40:52 DN: That white one?
40:53 TR: Yeah
40:53 DN: Yeah. Then the hard top Buick, and I think that was in the sixties
40:57 TR: But what year on your Cadillac now?
40:58 DN: This Cadillac
40:59 TR: Yeah
41:01 DN: is a eighty-seven.
41:01 TR: Eighty-seven
41:02 DN: Yeah
41:02 TR: And that’s the one with a fin and really long.
41:04 DN: Yeah.
�41:05 TR: Real long
41:06 DN: Yeah.
41:06 TR: You told me you had to convert your garage, an extension in order to get it in.
41:10 DN: Yeah, yeah. What they call (?) garage
41:11 TR: [laugh] the uh,
41:16 DN: Well, I had a Cadillac before that. A couple of them. One brown one. That was a big
four door. And then I, that’s when we had the carpenter come in and put the
41:24 TR: Yeah
41:25 DN: Extended the garage, because it wouldn’t fit otherwise. So then this Cadillac too, it
makes it perfect, you know. So
41:34 TR: Yeah. Is it beside your property where they had that passage way, so the kids could
go to school? They wouldn’t have to walk around the block?
41:44 DN: Yeah. They put a walk through there.
41:46 TR: Little walk way
41:47 DN: Yeah. Just a walkway. And then, uh later on, the city give-- give us and also David
and Jim so many feet on the of the lot there. And um, you can’t build on it.
42:07 TR: No
42:08 DN: But we can use it and then the city the kids could use it too.
42:11 TR: ok.
42:12 DN: And then for long time they put a those uh, for the walk way they had, uh, I can’t
think of the name of it now. That they put down every year. Then, uh,
42:25 TR: Mulch, I would imagine
42:26 DN: Mulch, yeah. That’s uh, but then it got higher and higher and when the rain, when
the water would get there
42:32 TR: Yeah
42:32 DN: it would sit there and collect, you know, and we said once we could cement it, but
that wouldn’t be so good. And then David and Jim and I talked to some of the city. We said
�“why don’t you just level it all and put in grass? Dirt and grass seed.” That’s fine. Well they
agreed to that. And that’s a lot better.
42:51 TR: So there was a lot there? Actually a lot?
42:54 DN: Yeah, a lot. Yeah.
42:54 TR: Oh
42:55 DN: I forget how many feet. Between David and Jim.
42:59 TR: Ok.
42:59 DN: But uh,
43:00 TR: It wasn’t buildable.
43:02 DN: No. When we got it they said you can’t build on it.
43:03 TR: Ok.
43:04 DN: because I think there’s a water pipe that now goes underneath it.
43:06 TR: Oh. Ok.
43:07 DN: Cause we had a lot of water too, you know. Cause of the house in back of David and
Jim. They raised the house they raised the house so high. And also the people in back of us.
43:16 TR: Yes
43:17 DN: So when it rained it come right down on us, and our back yard half of it was full of
water.
43:22 TR: That’s happening in ours.
43:23 DN: Yeah.
43:24 TR: Where they built the miniature golf thing where Ida Red’s is and
43:26 DN: Yeah.
43:27 TR: it killed all the trees because there’s no natural drainage type of thing.
43:30 DN: Yeah, and I said “I don’t know why the city allowed that” to have them build a
house so high, much higher you know
�43:37 TR: Yeah
43:37 DN: Than ground level, and, uh, so finally they put in a pipe and sewer
43:42 TR: Yeah.
43:42 DN: On Francis Street. So that helped a lot
43:46 TR: uh huh.
43:47 DN: So we don’t get as much water as before.
43:51 TR: Well your neighborhood has really changed. Houses,
43:54 DN: Oh yeah.
43:54 TR: So many of them torn down
43:55 DN: Torn and rebuilt, yeah.
43:56 TR: and big ones put up, yeah.
43:58 DN: Yeah, it’s quite a change there since when we bought it, you know.
44:03 TR: Yeah.
44:03 DN: Cause at the end, when we bought our house, there was no houses down there.
44:07 TR: Yeah
44:07 DN: At the end,
44:09 TR: Well, from what I understand the very end of your road was an active working farm
at one time. You know with a barn, and where, uh, they dammed and there’s that little lake at the
bottom of the hill
44:25 DN: Yeah.
44:26 TR: That was a pasture, and the cows would go down there and
44:29 DN: Yeah.
44:30 TR: And, uh, graze and uh come back up to the barn.
44:35 DN: Yeah. Then later onwards they built one, two, three, three houses.
�44:43 TR: Yeah.
44:43 DN: Three or four more houses down there. And then
44:47 TR: So you probably remember before the high school then, don’t you, and middle
school were built?
44:51 DN: Yeah.
44:51 TR: Up on the hill.
44:52 DN: yeah
44:52 TR: Was that just the farmland or something?
44:56 DN: I think so. It’s all wooded area
44:58 TR: It was wooded
44:58 DN: And uh, and there was a reason I can’t think, they like the road wouldn’t go through
either.
45:04 TR: Yeah
45:05 DN: I forgot why
45:07 TR: Well there seems to be a ditch or something
45:08 DN: There’s a- a ditch there, so, but we were glad about that, you know
45:13 TR: Yeah
45:14 DN: They never make a road out of it.
45:15 TR: Yeah you’ve got nice, private road
45:16 DN: Yeah. And uh, the two guys that were carpenters, Doug was one of the guy’s name,
they built a couple of those homes
45:26 TR: Yeah
45:26 DN: On the end of our street there.
45:27 TR: Oh yes
45:29 DN: Yeah
�45:29 TR: Weirenga (?) yes
45:30 DN: And uh
45:32 TR: Do you ever remember when Upper Spear connected down to, uh, Holland Street?
When you actually could drive down to Holland Street, before they closed it off? (pause) Ok.
45:45 DN: No
45:45 TR: I understand at one time you could go down
45:47 DN: Oh yeah.
45:47 TR: to Holland Street straight down Spear
45:51 DN: Oh. No.
45:53 TR: Cause that’s really a steep steep hill.
45:54 DN: Yeah
45:55 TR: Cause I cut down there, once in a while, I go “Woah” [laugh]
45:58 DN: [laugh] No. I don’t remember that.
46:01 TR: Sort of dangerous. Yeah.
46:02 DN: It’s all woods and the stream down back there, you know. And um
46:07 TR: Yeah
46:08 DN: So yeah there’s quite the change on our street. And the people too [laugh]
46:14 TR: Yup, uh, every change, it’s nice to see that people are keeping the quality you know,
uh, you know, it’s I- I think. There’s so many people that are renting their houses now. They’re
buying in on speculation that they’ll make enough money renting it out in the summer to justify
it. So there’s less permanent residents here in Saugatuck.
46:38 DN: Not a lot of them, yeah.
46:40 TR: Which is unfortunate, because you know when it’s a private ownership you tend to
take care of it better than
46:45 DN: Yeah
�46:45 TR: a rental site
46:46 DN: yeah. I don’t like that idea either. Rental
46:50 TR: Yeah, but you know
46:51 DN: yeah
46:52 TR: That’s I think some of the real estate people really pushed that.
46:55 DN: yeah
46:55 TR: Cause they’ll oversee the renting of it
46:58 DN: yeah and then
46:58 TR: and take a percentage
46:59 DN: And they get so much for that
47:00 TR: But like last weekend, somebody comes up. It’s a weekend. They want to party, and,
you know,
47:04 DN: Yeah
47:05 TR: they have the noise and the music and all that, and it’s like—and you know another
thing is that, so many of us are retired, I mean their children, if they had children they’re grown.
47:17 DN: Yeah.
47:18 TR: And they’re not here. We still have one of the best school districts, but its fed by
more the township
47:23 DN: Yeah.
47:24 TR: Cause they have the younger kids
47:25 DN: Yeah
47:27 TR: and, there are some homes that have children that you see walking
47:30 DN: Yeah
47:30 TR: To school
47:31 DN: Yeah. We used to too. Like the Keys across from us
�47:34 TR: Yes!
47:35 DN: Yeah and their kids they go to school
47:37 TR: Yeah
47:37 DN: And then then, uh, the Sheridans
47:40 TR: Yeah
47:41 DN: And the, kids went to school but now, and as far as I know it’s just one that, um, like
(?) She rents it out sometime weekends.
47:55 TR: Ah
47:56 DN: She used to rent it out.
47:58 TR: yeah
47:58 DN: I can’t think of her name, and her husband died about a year and a half ago.
48:00 TR: Ah
48:01 DN: He had tongue cancer or something like that
48:03 TR: Ah
48:03 DN: He was only only in his fifties.
48:05 TR: Boy
48:05 DN: And um
48:06 TR: That’s unfortunate
48:07 DN: And they had three or four children. Three boys and one girl, I think
48:08 TR: The, uh, thinking back, when you moved here, did you have reasons to come to
Douglas? Other than to go to Oval Beach. You had to come, unless you took the ferry or
something. Do you remember what Douglas was like when you first came?
48:27 DN: Yeah. It wasn’t much to it.
48:28 TR: Yeah
�48:29 DN: A couple of stores, and it seemed like it didn’t take hold.
48:32 TR: No
48:33 DN: Even though they tried it a couple of times, but not like Saugatuck, you know.
48:36 TR: No.
48:37 DN: And it’s just, oh, there was a couple of stores and this and that, but not much going
on, for quite a while. You know.
48:43 TR: Well I sort of trace it back to when Joyce Petter had, the Joyce Petter gallery,
lunches and then she had somebody take care of it for a while and then she bought it back, or
control of it. And it was the Joyce Petter Gallery, and then she was having problems with, uh,
parking and all that. And she bought the, uh, Gray Gables. And she was the first one to, I think,
really sink money into Douglas and do that
49:11 DN: Oh
49:12 TR: And then the Marina guys came in, and then
49:14 DN: Little by little, started. Yeah.
49:16 TR: Now it’s been discovered.
49:18 DN: Yeah, oh yeah.
49:19 TR: I mean, jeez
49:20 DN: And some of the guys that were gay they had a store there.
49:22 TR: Yeah.
49:23 DN: Downtown, you know.
49:26 TR: Yeah
49:26 DN: and restaurants and, uh,
49:26 TR: And you know, some of the people I knew that were in Saugatuck sold their houses
for some profits and bought lesser things and redid them in Douglas
49:35 DN: Yeah
49:35 TR: So they made- made money and were able to buy things so
�49:39 DN: Yeah
49:30 TR: It seems like it changed considerably
49:42 DN: It did it really changed later. There used, they had one good restaurant there on the
corner in Douglas and, I can’t think
49:51 TR: I I think there was a buffet, um, like a , yeah. Right right on Center Street.
49:57 DN: yeah
49:58 TR: Of course, what year did Terra stop? Well no, there was a restaurant cause the
Petersons bought it. And they had a restaurant. They sold it. I think they still call it the Terra. I’m
not sure. Before they built the condos? Yeah
50:11 DN: Um
50:13 TR: It was in the footprint, I think, of the old Terra. Yeah.
50:18 DN: Could be. Yeah, the Coneys used to own it from when we would come there
50:23 TR: Uh huh
50:24 DN: And then they sold it to a younger couple
50:25 TR: Yeah
50:26 DN: And I can’t think of their name. It was in the paper.
50:30 TR: Because
50:31 DN: And then they had a fire
50:32 TR: Ah
50:32 DN: And after that, I can’t remember
50:35 TR: Yeah
50:35 DN: If, whoever bought it or
50:36 TR: Well Eric Peterson
50:38 DN: Peterson maybe
�50:38 TR: Invited me to his wedding, and the reception was at, whatever that place was named.
You know. Where the condos are built now
50:45 DN: Oh, ok.
50:48 TR: So
50:49 DN: Terra. Yeah. They used to have good foods there when the Coney’s owned it.
50:53 TR: Ah.
50:55 DN: And, uh, when you come, oh, mother and I would come Friday night and we’d
always stop there to eat first.
51:02 TR: Yeah.
51:04 DN: And if you weren’t dressed you got in that first room
51:04 TR: Oh
51:04 DN: And if you were dress you got in the front room
51:06 TR: Ah
51:07 DN: that face the channel, you know?
51:09 TR: Yeah.
51:08 DN: And then, but then, we didn’t care cause we, yeah, just come from Kalamazoo
51:13 TR: Sure
51:14 DN: You know, for the weekend.
51:14 TR: Where did you buy your groceries?
51:18 DN: At, uh, Terra, or at uh
51:22 TR: Super—I’m saying what is, what was it called because
51:26 DN: Tafts!
51:27 TR: Tafts
51:27 DN: years ago
�51:29 TR: Right then the Super-- and now it’s some other name
51:31 DN: yeah. Now it’s
51:34 TR: Lake something
51:34 DN: Lake Vista, or
51:36TR: Lake Vista
51:36 DN: yeah
51:37 TR: You didn’t bring food, uh, the groceries from Kalamazoo or?
51:40 DN: Oh, oh, we’d bring some. Yeah.
51:41 TR: Some?
51:44 DN: Yeah. Especially if mother made something, you know that lasts a couple days
51:46 TR: Yeah
51:46 DN: Then we’d just take it along. And otherwise if we needed something we’d just go to
Taft’s
51:51 TR: Yeah.
51:52 DN: And get it
51:54 TR: Were, were you ever a fisherman?
51:55 DN: No
51:56 TR: No. yeah.
51:56 DN: Go once a while, but that’s it.
51:59 TR: Yeah. Or golfer?
52:00 DN: Huh?
52:01 TR: Golfing? Did you
52:02 DN: No
52:02 TR: No?
�52:03 DN: No no
52:04 TR: None of that
52:04 DN: No
52:05 TR: But you did go to bars [laugh]
52:07 DN: Yeah, went to the bars a couple of times
52:08 TR: and danced
52:09 DN: Yeah
52:09 TR: Well that’s recreation
52:11 DN: Yeah. Now, um,
52:14 TR: Do you remember in Saugatuck, they had shuffle board, I guess, by the City Hall?
Yeah. Ok
52:20 DN: They could. I don’t remember that either.
52:21 TR: Yeah.
52:22 DN: But they could have
52:23 TR: Yeah. They did.
52:24 DN: Oh, did they?
52:25 TR: Yeah
52:26 DN: Yeah, uh
52:27 TR: Um, and then right back near my house on Butler street they had, uh, they had little
miniature golf. They raised it up. For a very short time, but it wasn’t very successful
52:35 DN: Oh. Yeah.
52:37 TR: On Water Street, yeah.
52:38 DN: Oh
52:38 TR: Where, uh, Ida Red’s is. Yeah.
�52:41 DN: Ok. Oh yeah. I remember that. I remember that.
52:44 TR: Uh
52:45 DN: Yeah. Golfing
52:46 TR: And boy in my yard, I’d find golf balls all the time. [laugh]
52:50 DN: yeah [laugh]
52:51 TR: They’d over shoot it type of thing
52:53 DN: It wasn’t golf course. It was just (?) golf and
52:55 TR: Miniature golf, yeah.
52:56 DN: Miniature. Yeah. I remember that there. Yeah.
53:00 TR: You-53:00 DN: um
53:01 TR: You never went to any of the musical festivals? That jazz festival that, supposedly,
was in Saugatuck?
53:06 DN: Not the jazz, no
53:07 TR: Ok
53:08 DN: I’m not
53:09 TR: yeah. That supposedly was a pretty rowdy thing. You don’t remember the
motorcycle gangs from the sixties?
53:16 DN: Oh yeah. Billy’s Boat House. That’s where we used to go too.
53:19 TR: Ah
53:20 DN: They had good wet burritos there.
53:21 TR: Really?
53:23 DN: Yeah yeah
53:23 TR: Ok
�53:23 DN: uh, Billy’s Boat House steak was so good there.
53:26 TR: Ah.
53:27 DN: And then they had a motorcycle crowd there.
53:28 TR: Yeah
53:30 DN: And then for a while, we didn’t go because, we were kind of-53:32 TR: Do you remember the rail restaurant? That was
53:34 DN: -- Oh, the Old Rail
53:35 TR: yeah
53:36 DN: sure
53:38 TR: That burned down. I guess they had a grand piano in there?
53:39 DN: Yeah
53:40 TR: And the guy would do entertainment?
53:42 DN: Yeah, I forget his name too, but first two, two ladies owned it. Years ago.
53:45 TR: Ah
53:46 DN: And they had good food
53:47 TR: Ah.
53:48 DN: And then they sold it and then it was, I can’t think of his name.
53:52 TR: Ah
53:53 DN: Then he bought it. And we’d go to the Barn Theater sometime, and then afterwards
go there for dessert.
53:59 TR: Ah
54:00 DN: And coffee. And he’d be there and play the piano.
54:02 TR: Uh huh
�54:02 DN: That was kind of nice. So.
54:04 TR: Were- were there any negatives about this area that you could think of? Things that
disturb you or that you-54:11 DN: Oh, no. It was all pretty good.
54:11 TR: --didn’t like so much?
54:12 DN: No
54:14 TR: Well, I’m glad to hear that.
54:16 DN: Just years ago it was wild on the weekends downtown. Cars would go around the
block four or five times you know
54:21 TR: Ah
54:23 DN: And the streets were full and the sidewalks you know
54:25 TR: People showing their cars, showing off their cars.
54:27 DN: Cars just riding around, yeah.
54:29 TR: Ah ha
54:30 DN: and of course, lot of students used to come to and just
54:33 TR: That’s what I understand
54:34 DN: And and there were some families too that just take down signs
54:37 TR: Yeah.
54:37 DN: And break some windows. And for a while it was kind of rough
54:53 TR: And that was the, yeah, college crew and course Travis Randolf was sort of part of
that because they had a cottage and he was going to University of Michigan then and his
fraternity brothers would come
54:53 DN: come yeah
54:54 TR: and use the house
54:54 DN: yeah, yeah
�54:56 TR: Sylvia Randolf his mother accused him of breaking all her, uh (pause) Oak Leaf
dishes
55:02 DN: Oh
55:03 TR: Antique oak
55:04 DN: oh yeah
55:06 TR: Travis denies it, but
55:06 DN: Yeah. What was her name again?
55:07 TR: Sylvia Randalf
55:08 DN: Oh yeah. She lives on down there in the yellow house
55:10 TR: Yeah. Yeah.
55:12 DN: Now she was a nice person
55:13 TR: Very much so
55:14 DN: yeah.
55:15 TR: and she lived to a hundred and three.
55:17 DN: yeah. She got quite old
55:17 TR: Yeah
55:18 DN: She liked to entertain.
55:20 TR: Very definitely, and luckily we were part, part of it, but
55:21 DN: yeah.
55:25 TR: really some gracious, uh, meals. The lower part of that house was brought from
Singapore. When the river was frozen
55:32 DN: Oh
55:35 TR: way back in eighteen whenever.
55:37 DN: Oh?
�55:38 TR: Type of thing
55:38 DN: Oh yeah.
55:38 TR: so it’s, it’s uh, very much a historic house. Uh, type of thing. But Joyce Petter talks
about when she would confront the motorcyclists that would park in front of her gallery
55:49 DN: Oh yeah.
55:50 TR: And I’m going to interview her, later on in the week and have her describe, one
motorcyclist got so disturbed he drove his motorcycle right into her gallery.
56:01DN: Oh.
56:01 TR: Oh yeah! [laugh]
56:02 DN: Oh I don’t remember that. Oh really?
56:04 TR: Yeah, it probably made the news, but, uh,
56:06 DN: Oh
56:07 TR: Yeah she, she was a chara- is a character.
56:09 DN: yeah
56:10 TR: There’s no doubt about it.
56:11 DN: Yeah
56:12 TR: But
56:12 DN: Yeah, but, uh, now see all that happened before we bought here
56:13 TR: Yeah
56:16 DN: We would just come weekend
56:16 TR: Yes
56:17 DN: Or rent
56:18 TR: Yes
56:18 DN: We would rent downtown
�56:20 TR: Yeah. And and, local policeman, from stories I heard is that they, uh, if it got to
rowdy they would close, close the city. They would
56:28 DN: Yeah
56:29 TR: So you could not enter the city.
56:30 DN: Yeah. We had that one year too. We, I don’t, we’d come from Holland or so, and on
that end there was police there, and we had to show ID and everything
56:40 TR: [laughs]
56:42 DN: That we had a place here
56:42 TR: Ok. Well, strangely enough, when I moved here in seventy-six, I moved here
Venetian weekend day
56:47 DN: Oh
56:TR: Moving truck was coming and they stopped and said, “The town’s full. You can’t come
in.” And I said to myself, “Oh my gosh. What did I do?”
56:56 DN: Yeah
56:56 TR: [laughs]
56:56 DN: [laugh]
56:57 TR: But I did, you know
56:58 DN: Yeah, yeah.
57:00 TR: Manistee friends love coming to Saugatuck
57:03 DN: Yeah, yeah.
57:03 TR: From
57:04 DN: Then sometime too we’d go to the beach too when we wanted to go, well we
couldn’t get in till some cars come out and we go in.
57:09 TR: That happened this summer
57:11 DN: Oh yeah
57:11 TR: My family came
�57:12 DN: yeah
57:12 TR: It was backed up all the way on to Park Street
57:16 DN: yeah
57:17 TR: And, uh, they’ve increased the parking space, but, uh,
57:19 DN: Yeah
57:20 TR: Popular.
57:21 DN: Yeah
57:22 TR: There’s no doubt about it. So. Very, uh, but I’ve never so many colorful umbrellas
in-57:27 DN: Oh yeah [laugh]
57:29 TR: Just really beautiful.
57:30 DN: Yeah. Yeah. It’s a nice beach, Saugatuck
57:32 TR: There’s no doubt about it.
57:33 DN: Very nice
57:34 TR: Yeah. We are blessed
57:34 DN: Yeah, it’s a nice area. Yeah
57:37 TR: Water sometime this summer was, I think around seventy-two
57:40 DN: Yeah.
57:40 TR: Then the winds would change the currents.
57:41 DN: Yeah.
57:43 TR: And then it would be sixty something. And you go woah, woah. [laugh]
57:46 DN: Change overnight.
57:47 TR: That’s a little cold, yeah
�57:48 DN: Yeah. But it was nice. We used to go to the beach a lot, you know?
57:51TR: Yeah. Well
57:52 DN: And sometime we just go sometime for see the sunset. And have
57:57 TR: Oh
57:57 DN: Have our dinner someplace and have dessert sitting on the
58:01 TR: Absolutely
58:02 DN: On the beach there and have our dessert.
58:03 TR: Well, I think it—it’s wonderful that gay people have felt comfortable enough to
come here to visit and then to buy homes.
58:12 DN: And yeah
58:13 TR: And and, you know, now some of them have families, they can marry
58:16 DN: yeah
58:16 TR: They can have children now
58:17 DN: yeah
58:19 TR: Adopt them, and, uh, there’s a lot more lesbians moving into the area that find it
desirable.
58:26 DN: Yeah
58:27 TR: So, you know, the, the mixture of people have—has continued and hopefully will
continue
58:35 DN: yeah
58:36 TR: And the tolerance
58:37 DN: yeah
58:37 TR: And all that
58:37 DN: And the people bored up with it to, you know
58:39 TR: Yeah, and uh
�58:50 DN: and, uh like uh, oh I can’t think of his name, that owned East of the Sun. The
doctor?
58:45 TR: Yeah
58:46 DN: But a long time ago too, he was talking to some other one
58:50 TR: yeah
58:50 DN: But he said it too, sometime if it wouldn’t be for the gay people he wouldn’t make
that much money cause they spent the money
58:54 TR: Yeah
58:55 DN: Where couples didn’t spend that much.
58:56 TR: Yeah
58:56 DN: You know, if they had children
58:58 TR: That is true
58:59 DN: And so
59:00 TR: Had more disposable income
59:02 DN: Yeah
59:02 TR: Very much so, and and as Joyce Petter said they um, Grand Rapids, she lived there.
She started the gallery. People just didn’t buy paintings. It was the people of Chicago, Detroit
59:14 DN: Oh.
59:14 TR: and Indianapolis that came up, and they had the disposable income.
59:18 DN: yeah.
59:18 TR: And she, she started a lot of the galleries. They had gift stores
59:23 DN: Yeah
59:24 TR: But not--not fine art
59:24 DN: Yeah
�59:25 TR: You know? Craft
59:28 DN: Yeah
59:28 TR: And that stuff, so.
59:29 DN: Now does Joyce Petter still own that gallery?
59:30 TR: Yes
59:32 DN: Oh, ok.
59:33 TR: Yeah.
59:34 DN: I know that
59:34 TR: Yeah, but she rents it out. The one in Saugatuck, uh, I think, er I forget what it’s
called
59:40 DN: Frederick’s used to be in there too
59:42 TR: Yeah.
59:43 DN: Yeah
59:45 TR: Yes, but of course she has the one in Douglas, the, uh, Petter gallery there.
59:50 DN: Yeah, the big one
59:51 TR: Which they
59:51DN: On the high way
59:52 TR: Converted part of it to a wine shop.
59:54 DN: Oh
59:55 TR: Type of thing. Yeah, but uh, the other part is still a gallery.
59:59 DN: Yeah
1:00:00 TR: So it’s refreshing to I, I’m putting words in your mouth, that being gay has been a
very good thing for you that, to have a home here
1:00:11 DN: yeah.
�1:00:13 TR: Yeah, uh, and, uh, Erwin would have agreed with you.
1:00:18 DN: Yeah. Oh yeah. He liked it here too, and
1:00:20 TR: Yeah
1:00:21 DN: And, uh, we had a lot of good times here.
1:00:23 TR: Yeah.
1:00:24 DN: And, uh, a lot of our friends would come up from Chicago too, for the weekend, so
1:00:27 TR: Oh, absolutely,
1:00:29 DN: Yeah
1:00:30 TR: Well, can you think of anything else you might, closing remarks, or
1:00:33 DN: No
1:00:35 TR: Anything like that?
1:00:37 DN: I think we covered most of it, I think
1:00:37 TR: I think we did
1:00:39 DN: so yeah
1:00:39 TR: We had, we got, uh
1:00:41DN: yeah
1:00:42 TR: The, uh, the Blue Tempo again, uh,
1:00:45 DN: yeah
1:00:46 TR: Uh, did they have any exotic drinks there? From that period? Cause, you know, in
my college days I remember the Blue Motorcycle and Singapore Sling and
1:00:55 DN: Oh
1:00:57 TR: Those horrible mixed drinks
1:00:57 DN: Mixed drinks yeah. They might have,
1:00:59 TR: Yeah
�1:01:00 DN: But I don’t remember any of them, yeah. I, well, once in a while I’d get a beer, but
otherwise
1:01:04 TR: Yeah.
1:01:05 DN: I’d try to just to get, uh, just a vodka and tonic
1:01:06 TR: That sounds good enough
1:01:08 DN: Yeah. Beer was all right, but it filled me up, so
1:01:10TR: Ah
1:01:11DN: I don’t know why, one beer, yeah, it bloated me, so
1:01:13 TR: Well, they obviously had a restroom there I would imagine so if you got
1:01:16 DN: Yeah
1:01:17 TR: Too filled [laugh]
1:01:17 DN: So if I got a drink I could nurse that all evening. One drink or drinks, you know
1:01:21TR: Ah. Yeah.
1:01:22DN: So that was ok
1:01:23 TR: They probably make more money on a mixed drink, anyway
1:01:25DN: Yeah
1:01:26TR: Well thank you very much for, uh, giving your time and recording this, uh, you
know, uh, you’ve certainly filled me in more about the area so
Interview ends 1:01:37
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1910s-2010s
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Various
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Michigan, Lake
Allegan County (Mich.)
Beaches
Sand dunes
Outdoor recreation
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Saugatuck-Douglas History Center
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
English
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DC-07_SD-NewmeyerD-20181010
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Newmeyer, Duane
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-10-10
Title
A name given to the resource
Duane Newmeyer (Audio interview and transcript), 2018
Description
An account of the resource
Duane Newmeyer describes his young adulthood in Saugatuck and Chicago as he met his husband Erwin. Considerable discussion of time in the dunes and at the Blue Tempo.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Reyda, Ted (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Allegan County (Mich.)
Gay men
Sexual minorities
Oral history
Audio recordings
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Documenting the Histories of Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas, Kutsche Office of Local History
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Joy Muehlenbeck and Jerry Elsinga- Interview by Jean Osmond
October 4, 2018
0:02 JO: I am Jean Osmond, and I am here today to interview Joy and Jerry Muehlenbeck.
And we are at the Old School House. It is Thursday October the 4 th, and 19, sorry. 2018. I’d
better get my dates correct here. And this oral history is selected as part of the Stories of
Summer Project, which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment for
Humanities Common Heritage Program. And I thank both of you for coming here to talk to me
today.
0:37
JM: Welcome.
0:37
JE: Did you want my last name?
0:38 JO: I should have all, I should apologize here. I’ve known both Joy and Jerry as
Muehlenbecks, but it’s still Joy Muehlenbeck, but it is Jury Muehlenbeck and she’s going to say
it for us right now and spell it
0:53
JE: Elsinga.
0:54
JO: Ok. And spell Elsinga for me please.
0:56
JE: E-L-I-S-I-N-G-A
1:00 JO: mm hm. And Joy would you spell Muehlenbeck too, because that’s, uh, kind of a
toughie name
1:04
JM: [laugh] True. M-U-E-H-L-E-N-B-E-C-K
1:13 JO: Ok. And here we’ve got the two of them and they are going to share their
information as to what they remember when they came here and when you both came up from
the Chicago area, correct?
1:25
JM: yes
1:25
JE: yes
1:25 JM: Our parents bought, um, home in, uh, in this area. Actually it was on, at that time it
was called Hooter Road, but, um, it’s now 66th street.
1:39
JO: Hooter was a better name [laugh]
1:39
JM: [laugh]
�1:40 JM: And they bought it in 1945. But we didn’t move until 1955. Um, Dad was working,
we were all living in Chicago. My dad was working in Chicago. He was working for Oscar Meyer
as a driver, and they knew he had property in Michigan, and so they offered him the
opportunity to move and continue working for Oscar Meyer. So he would meet, um a loaded
truck, a full truck of meats in the morning, south of here, and he’d take the full truck and
deliver to south western Michigan, and then he would return the empty truck the next morning
for the full truck. And that’s the way it worked for several years. Later on he decided he wanted
to again unite with some union job and so, he um, found another job in Chicago and um, came
out on the weekends. At that time, uh, a train ran out of Chicago to Fennville. Stopped in
Fennville. So we’d pick him up from the depot and return him on Sunday night, and he would
go back to work, and we could continue living here.
2:53
JO: Oh
2:54 JM: So we lived in the area, had home in the area since 45, came up weekends, shoo the
mice out of the house
3:00
JE: [laugh]
3:01 JM: And, and then we moved in 55. And and at time I had already graduated, I had just
graduated from Chicago High School in 55, but Jerry was to have gone in the second half in the
seventh grade in Chicago. They did A and B, and she would have gone into the second half, uh,
but not having that arrangement here in Douglas, um, maybe, I don’t know if they gave her a
test or not but, I think they took a chance on her being able to handle eighth grade and so.
3:37 JO: All they had to do Joy was just look at her and say she’s an eighth grader, and for
this, this was just Joy speaking, but now we’re going to have Jerry, and you’ll be able to tell the
differences in their voices as to who’s who. That was Joy, and now Jerry, what is your reaction
to this?
3:52 JE: [pause]. Well. We lived on Hooter road like she said. 66th Street, and I remember
coming out here, and the first thing, especially if it was in the winter my dad always had Glog on
hand.
4:13
JO: What is Gluck?
4:15
JE: Glog is a wine—
4:18
JO: G-L-O-G! Oh!
4:23
JE: Glog. Yes
4:23
JO: Ok
�4:23
JE: So we could warm u
4:25
JO: uh huh
4:26 JE: Because we did not have heat on. It was a summer home, so if we came out in the
winter that was the way we warmed up quick
4:35
JO: [laugh]
4:37
JE: And I’m surprised Joy remembered that. Or if she did she wouldn’t say
4:40
JM: Oh I didn’t I didn’t know if we wanted to talk about our drinking on this
4:44
JE: [laugh]
4:44
JO: [laugh]
4:45
JM: On the, on this program. That was the thing, so.
4:51 JE: Oh, but it was fun. It was, uh, an old fashioned house that, um, we had to go outside
for our water, a pump
5:00
JO: Oo.
5:00
JE: And we had an outhouse. And for a while we had an outhouse.
5:05
JO: One seater or two seater?
5:07
JM: I think it was a one seater [laugh]
5:07 JE: One seater. Yes. But, the first tornado, which we did not know was a real tornado,
that hit, and my aunt was out here for that specific weekend. I remember I was, oh gosh. If I
was 8, 9, 10. I’m not sure. But it was horrendous wind outside. And my aunt and I had used the,
john
5:43
JO: [laugh]
5:44 JE: And we went out there with our head down because the wind was so horrendous.
And when we lifted our head up, we did not have a potty.
5:56
JO: [gasp] it blew away
5:57
JE: and we couldn’t find it
�6:00
JO: [laugh]
6:00 JE: So that’s a story that I’ll never forget. [laugh] So. It was a very scary evening. But it
was worse when you couldn’t even go potty.
6:16 JM: Yeah, but you remember when you came back into the house just in tears “Oh the
toilet blew away,” and our dad said “Well the hole was there, wasn’t it?”
6:28
JO: [laugh]
6:30
JE: That’s right. That’s right. Yeah.
6:32
JM: He said
6:32
JO: Your dad is practical [laugh]
6:34 JM: The other thing about that old outhouse, uh, since you’re talking about it was, um,
my mom would send us out sometimes to throw some leftover food, and she’d normally throw
in the garbage, and she’d say “Throw it down the hole, and don’t lose the spoon!” She
6:52
JO: [laugh]
6:53 JM: was always the last thing she’d say to me. And I remember one time going out
there, and dog gone it I was holding the spoon tightly and slightly, and what happened was I
lost the bowl.
7:05
JO: But she didn’t tell you not to lose the bowl.
7:07
JM: No.
7:08
JO: [laugh]
7:10
JE: And a follow up on the houses. My father lived, uh, where would you call that area?
7:17 JM: That was the Hamilton or the new, east Saugatuck area before you go into
Hamilton, yeah.
7:23
JE: And he had three pole barns
7:26
JM: uh, 138
7:26
JE: Yeah.
�7:26
JO: Oo
7:26
JE: And he obv, he always slept in his, um, what was it, a trailer. And um
7:36
JM: Camper
7:37 JE: Camper and trailer, yeah. And one day he had that fixed up. I mean this was an
outhouse. Three holes
7:48
JO: Oo
7:48 JE: And he had uh, a sink. But of course no running water. So it was just a sink, and he
decorated it and it was all. So, I remember using it one time. And I opened the door. I sat down
and, closing the door I sat down, and all of a sudden this statue--- w--- what’d you call it?
8:15
JM: He called it the kilroy
8:18
JE: Kilroy.
8:19
JM: It was a dummy.
8:19
JO: [laugh]
8:19
JE: In the corner of that outhouse. Inside
8:24
JO: Oh my.
8:25 JE: Oh. I’ll tell you, I, I did not like Kilroy. No. Uh uh. Kilroy was not my favorite. So
anyway. That’s the story of that. But then all of a sudden, one time he did not have his truck,
the brake on correctly or something like that. And before he knew it, it backed up and it took
out his outhouse.
8:52
JO: Three seater, huh? And Kilroy?
8:54
JE: And Kilroy [laugh]
8:55
JO: [laugh]
8:57 JM: But, knowing my dad his simple re, response to that was just to hang a sign on it
said “Out of order”
9:05
JO: [laugh] I know where you two grew a sense of humor.
9:10
JM: He was funny
�9:12
JO: That’s
9:13
JE: He was funny
9:13
JO: So happened all the time before you lived up here permanently then.
9:17 JM: No, that, uh, when we, uh, in 55 when we moved uh, uh, actually we, then the
house was sold in uh, 69. Then he had his own place. He left the place on Hooter Road when
our mother had died. And, uh, so then they had lived in the camper which he had moved onto
property, his own property three buildings. And that was on, uh, 38 th, where she’s talking the,
the outhouse. We had two outhouses. The outhouse where we lived when we first moved, and
then later on when dad lived alone, he moved to property where, um, had had an outhouse
there too.
10:00 JE: Now. I might have to correct you on one thing.
10:04 JM: One thing only.
10:05 JE: One thing. All right. Kilroy belonged in Chicago.
10:12 JM: Yeah, but I didn’t
10:12 JE: Where he had his bar in Chicago
10:15 JM: I think he moved it
10:17 JE: Yeah. It was a woman, in the, in the one on the other one.
10:20 JM: Oh. It wasn’t Kilroy.
10:23 JE: No, it was, had a, woman
10:24 JM: It, it was a dummy of a sort
10:25 JO: [laugh]
10:26 JE: In the corner. There. And we finally said “You have to dress her, you know?” But in
Chicago he had a bar.
10:38 JM: And that’s where he had Kilroy
10:40 JE: And Kilroy was this mannequin dressed in a tux.
10:45 JO: Oh my word
�10:48 JE: I was only what, 5, 3, 4, 5 years old. And I was terrified of Kilroy. He would take Kilroy
and tie it to the front of his car and go through Chicago wherever he had to go.
11:06 JO: [laugh]
11:07 JE: And Kilroy was lying on top his
11:08 JO: On the trunk? I mean
11:09 JE: On the hood
11:09 JO: On the hood.
11:10 JE: On the side
11:11 JO: Oh my
11:13 JE: And the, then, you know, my mom said to my dad “Never, ever have Kilroy around
when Jerry comes cause she’s terrified of Kilroy.” He forgot or, my, my mom came in
surprisingly, I don’t know what it was, but I opened the bathroom door and there sat Kilroy on
my toilet
11:36 JO: [laugh]
11:38 JE: And I’ll never forget that. Never
11:43 JM: The, the reason that um that our parents came up into this area was the fact that,
um our mom had been born in a southern Illinois town. And after, um, her parents were no
longer living. Um, at age 16, she went to Chicago to get employment. And uh, found that a
bakery, a local bakery was advertising for a worker. So she applied there and she was going to
work the counter within this bakery, um, and when they got to know her and like her and so on,
they said “Rather than being a clerk for us, would you consider being a nanny?” They had some
young children.
12:22 JO: Oh.
12:24 JM: So. She accepted that, that responsibility and that became like a family to her, being
as young as she was. And then after this particular bakery family, um, retired, they bought
property out here first. And it’s now the art barn on Wiley
12:43 JO: Oh
12:44 JM: But it had been the Wanzung home and that’s
�12:48 JO: Spell Wanzung for us
12:48 JM: Uh, W-A-N-Z-U-N-G. Wanzung. And then, um, so then my parents would come to
that, that introduced them to this community. And my dad was a city man who loved the
country. My mom was a country girl who really preferred the city
13:08 JO: [laugh]
13:09 JM: But we got here.
13:09 JO: You got here. Well I’m glad you did.
13:11 JM: Yeah
13:13 JO: But now, Joy, when you said you came here, you had already graduated from high
school
13:15 JM: From high school but
13:17 JO: But your sister was half way through her seventh grade year. But they put her into
eighth grade here. This was a shock for you, wasn’t it Jerry? Coming from a city like Chicago
High School to this school house?
13:30 JE: You have no idea
13:31 JO: K. Tell us what you thought when you first walked into this building, or didn’t want
to walk into it.
13:38 JE: Well, we had seventh and eighth grade in the upper right hand corner
13:44 JO: So that’d be the room where we are right now.
13:46 JE: Exactly
13:47 JO: Ok. Where the Michigan Dunes Collection is.
13:48 JE: mm hm. And, um, there were 2 girls and 4 boys in eighth grade. K. Plus we had sixth
and seventh grade also in the same. Mm hm. Ok. And, it was very difficult. Very difficult to
come out of a school of, of two thousand, right Joy?
14:13 JM: A large public school you know
14:16 JE: Large. And I was so involved in tumbling, and I loved the gymnastics. And all of a
sudden I’m plunked into this
�14:27 JO: [laugh]
14:28 JE: and I say plunked. I didn’t know how to react. I was just very quiet I think. And then
Ty Hackme
14:43 JO: I remember that name. Ty Hackme. Mm hm.
14:46 JE: And I wore double, what do you call, gian-um, my hair was up in double
14:53 JO: Braids
14:54 JE: Braids
14:54 JO: Oh
14:55 JE: Or, yeah. And he sat behind me and he clung them
14:59 JO: [laugh]
14:59 JE: So
15:01 JO: So what kind of seats did you have that he could be so close to you? Didn’t he have a
desk in between or he couldn’t have leaned over couldn’t he?
15:06 JE: I’m trying to think. I’m trying to remember
15:09 JM: Were they etched, I don’t I don’t quite know
15:12 JE: I, yeah
15:14 JM: I have some real old school sets at home, and the, was like attached
15:18 JO: yeah.
15:20 JM: The front was attached to the back
15:20 JE: was attached to the back, uh huh
15:21 JM: And it looked like a train type thing, but I’m not sure what you
15:22 JE: Yes
15:23 JO: Yeah
�15:24 JM: had if you had tables and chairs or
15:27 JE: No, I think it was that, that style, I think, but he just, he was was trying to always get
my attention
15:37 JO: [laugh]
15:37 JE: And later, as I grew a little older, I dated the guy because he took me roller skating at
the old Pavilion.
15:46 JO: Oh, so you remember that then too?
15:48 JE: Yeah. Yes
15:49 JO: Ok then, well tell me about that, and then we’ll come back to the school here and
how you grew up and what else was here.
15:55 JE: Yes
15:55 JO: Ok, then tell about the Pavilion, what it was like going there.
15:58 JE: Oh it was awesome to, to, to not only see that building, but to, uh, there was a movie
theater to the left of it.
16:12 JO: Mm kay. How did you get in the building? Tell us that.
16:14 JE: Well
16:15 JO: How did you get into the Pavillion? Do you remember that Joy?
16:17 JM: Well the movie theater was on ground level. As I remember, I never, I never was in
the, the dance area or roller skating area. And, and I think that was like at a second level
16:30 JO: yeah
16:31 JM: I think it was from the movie, or else the movie, or the theater was to the side of it.
I’m not sure just how that worked
16:38 JE: I think there were two steps up into it
16:41 JM: Could have been
16:42 JE: Two steps. No more than three. But when you went in, it had been of course a big
dance hall
�16:52 JO: Mmhm. That’s what I head
16:53 JE: And, um, of course at that time, young children weren’t allowed in there, but when it
became a roller rink, then that’s when he taught me how to roller rink
17:09 JM: skate
17:09 JE: skate.
17:10 JM: [laugh]
17:10 JE: in the rink. But because, of course, oh he was great at it. Oh my gosh. He could just
swing around that place like no tomorrow, and I’m on there just fumbling
17:20 JO: [laugh]
17:22 JE: Because I didn’t know how. And, but he taught me how to roller skate, and uh
17:29 JO: Did you forgive him then for pulling your braids?
17:32 JE: At that point yes
17:33 JO: Ok. [laugh]
17:35 JM: He was a very interesting young man. He called the house one time when I
answered the phone. And he identified himself as Ty, and he was “I, I wonder if I could come
over and see Jerry.” So I said, “Sure, you know. Come on” and he said “I’ll run right over.” When
most people say “I’ll run right over,” they mean, you know, get in the car and drive, but he
didn’t come, and he didn’t come, and he didn’t come. He actually had run over. And we were
probably three miles, four miles.
18:03 JE: Oh yeah.
18:04 JM: From the, from Douglas, but he, he, um
18:07 JE: yes
18:08 JM: Ran over. There was one other thing when we were picking up on that theater. They
changed their film every night.
18:12 JO: Oh really?
18:13 JM: Yes. So you could have a different movie. And my mother loved to do movies. So
she and I would do the movies. Oh, um
�18:21 JO: How much was it to go to the movie?
18:23 JM: Um, I can’t remember, but it was very, I mean, uh
18:25 JE: fifty cents?
18:28 JM: I remember, uh, Jane Vends (?) telling me what it cost to dance, but I don’t
remember what I got, ten cents,
18:32 JO: laugh
18:32 JE: [laugh]
18:34 JM: I don’t remember
18:35 JE: It could have been ten cents.
18:38 JM: to get in there, but it was very inexpensive, but, um, I could drive. My dad left the
car for us so we could have it during the summer. I could drive. I was fearful of crossing on the
bridge. Crossing the bridge. So, what we, my mother and I, would do is park in Douglas, and
we’d walk across and walk down to the film. Well that worked fine until one night when we
were ready to return, it was pouring. It was a terrible, terrible storm. And we had to walk
through that storm and across the bridge
19:11 JO: Cross the bridge. Oh.
19:12 JM: And, and she, I remember her saying, “I really believe, I really believe you could
cross this bridge with the car. I think you could.” I kind of did it from then on
19:24 JO: You drove over
19:24 JM: Drove to Saugatuck [laugh]
19:27 JE: Boy. I must have been, I don’t remember that
19:28 JM: No, you weren’t with us
19:30 JE: I must
19:32 JM: I don’t know why, but [laugh], maybe it was an x rated film and you were too young.
19:36 JE: That could be
�19:37 JO: Maybe, they didn’t show X rated films
19:40 JM: [laugh] Well, I can’t remember, but could be.
19:44 JE: But it was a beautiful area, and then, when I was old enough, and I, uh, all those
boats that were out, out there and you know
19:54 JO: Oh in the
19:56 JE: And they were two and three and they were huge boats. I shouldn’t even say boats.
They were huge. They came from Chicago. Yachts!
20:01 JO: Yachts! The, the wealthy and
20:02 JE: the wealthy yachts. And oh, it was fun to walk on that board walk.
20:08 JO: Right outside of the Inn?
20:10 JE: Yes
20:11 JO: Ok. I’ve seen picture of it.
20:12 JE: Yes. The Pavilion was my stomping ground when I was old enough. I loved that place.
20:19 JO: Ok. So you would go roller skating there. You could go to a movie there. What else
what other activities did they have there, do you remember?
20:25 JM: They had a bar too, I remember that was
20:27 JE: Oh yeah. Downstairs.
20:29 JM: uh, being in the, being in the
20:30 JE: right that was Red Skeller
20:32 JO: Red Skeller, ok. I remember that, yeah.
20:33 JE: That’s where the dancing was, and the bar. And um
20:40 JM: I don’t know if the Red Skeller was in the, um, big Pavilion. Or if that was in Coral
Gables. I think
20:47 JE: Oh
�20:49 JM: Coral Gables.
20:51 JO: Didn’t you get to the Red Skellar by going outside and then going kind of down.
20:54 JE: Down. Mm hm
20:56 JO: That’s what I always heard, but I could be wrong. I dont’ know.
20:58 JE: Boy I’m not sure now. Joy
20:59 JM: I thought it was at, I thought it was at Coral Gables but
21:01 JE: I think when the yachts were here
21:04 JM: I remember being um, I had gone to um, uh, Western Michigan University and, um,
during May, uh, 1960, was the blaze which took down the Pavilion.
21:17 JE: Yes
21:18 JM: So I was
21:19 JE: It was early in May wasn’t it?
21:20 JM: Yes, in May.
21:21 JE: Mm, yeah. May 6
21:22 JM: I was home
21:24 JE: I remember that cause I cried. I was out of school, and I, I saw it go down. And oh,
yeah
21:32 JM: Yeah. When Jerry was, um, uh, here, at, um, the Union School I was, um, pursuing
teacher training. I had been enrolled in the Chicago Teacher’s College in Illinois, and of course
when we moved I wanted to move with the family. And I was told of a program, it was called
Allegan County
21:54 JE: Yes. I remember
21:55 JM: And, it had been in Allegan, the city of Allegan, for forty-nine years, and for its
fiftieth year it was moving to Saugatuck
22:03 JO: Oh really?
�22:04 JM: And it was located in one of the rooms off the, um, high school, which at the time
was where those condos are now.
22:13 JO: Up on the hill
22:13 JM: On the hill. On Allegan Street and Elizabeth. Right was there. And we had a room in
that, in that school. And that was convenient because we could do our student teaching right in
the building
22:26 JO: Oh, in Saugatuck
22:27 JM: Right there, and um, um, and we only had a one-year program, and we were
expected then to teach in, to teach in a one room school or two room school within the county.
And, uh, Ottawa county did not have a normal school, so there were Holland people that came
to Saugatuck to be part of that normal school. And you talked before, was there a difference
between the Chicago schools, remember I had graduated from a Chicago High school and
23:01 JO: How many were in your graduating class?
23:01 JM: it was
23:02 JO: A thousand
23:04 JM: It was you know like, I never knew how to spell principal, and now I was one. You
know?
23:08 JO: [laugh]
23:08 JM: yeah. Well. It was like, what is a one room school? What is a two room school? Kind
of thing. And, um, at the time I had um, a job waitressing at a place called Simmons’ of
Saugatuck. It was on Butler Street in Saugatuck, and it’s where Glick is now. And I worked for
Dorothy Simmons. And, uh, the operation was breakfast til two o’clock. Eight to two. Then we
closed. And then we reopened at five, and were open from five to eight. Don’t like that split
shift because you could hardly get to the beach and do anything, and then you had to be back
to work, and um, I know that, um, a number of our customers, um, were from Castle Park and
so on,
23:57 JO Oh yes
23:57 JM: Which was kind of an elite area
23:58 JO: Yes, it was
�23:58 JM: Um, on the southwest side of the city. And they would come down for dinner. I
remember that. Um, I remember working with, um, um, oh, twin women who one of whom
dated um, Green, um, what did we say his first name was? Not Robert, but his brother.
24:19 JE: Um, Marshall
24:20 JM: Marshall. Marshall Green dated one of these women. So wanting the women to
finish up quickly at night so he’d come and he’d help us.
24:28 [phone ringing]
24:30 JM: He’d come and help us clean up you know. And so, he would move the chairs all
around, you know, the whole bit. That, but, I was with Simmons’ of Saugatuck. I worked with,
uh, Gala Davis
24:45 JO: Gala Davis
24:46 JM: Davis, and she was from the Davis family. Some of whom own Chicken as you like it
of Saugatuck. That was her uncle I think.
24:55 JO:W—and where was that located?
24:56 JM: At, um, it was also right down town. And I, um, think it was, I don’t know if it was on
Butler for sure. I think it was, but I’m not sure which of the buildings because it was kind of
closed at the time that I got involved in the area, but, um, I was telling Gala, one of the Davis’
three children, I was going to start teaching the next day
25:20 JO: [laugh]
25:20 JM: And, um, and I said “I’m kind of nervous about it, you know” and Gala said “Hey.
Mother’s been teaching for years. I live right in Saugatuck.” She said. “Come on up, and uh,
meet my mom.” So um, that’s when I met Edna Davis. Edna Navit (?) Davis. And they had the
big house across from All Saints Episcopal Church. Across Grand
25:42 JO: Ok.
25:42 JM: So their, their house was on the corner of Grand and Hoffman. It’s a beautiful place
now, owned by somebody who has gorgeous landscaping and they, anyway, after their death
then their son Dave lived there before he sold it. But, and I bought my house, where I’ve lived
since 1970, from the Davis’
26:06 JO: From the Davis’?
26:06 JM: Yes
�26:07 JO: Oh, my word, what a big circle
26:08 JM: Yeah, they, from the Davis’. So it was really quite nice. And I remember that little
tea room which the Simmons’ of Saugatuck was
26:18 JO: Work until two, and then had a break from five to eight, right?
26:20 JM: Yes, yes, at the restaurant, and I remember we were told never tell a customer we
don’t have a cold cereal they might ask for. Whatever they ask for, we have it. Then I had to go
out the back way, go around to a grocery store in town, and understand that’s where
Pumpernickels now stands.
26:40 JO: Oh.
26:41 JM: And buy that. And buy cereal
26:42 JO: And buy that cereal?
26:43 JM: And come back and go through the restaurant and serve it like
26:48 JO: [laugh] Of course we have it.
26:50 JM: Well then after a while we had a shelf full of cold cereal, and Mrs. Simmons’ would
say “Now we have enough choice here, you know.” She’d get after the young man that did
dishes because he was always soaked, you know. His shirt, his clothing, and she didn’t like him
looking that, even if he was in the kitchen, and she got on his back about it. So then he got a
plastic apron, and he got around with his shoes going [squishing noises]
27:16 JO: [laugh]
27:16 JM: [laugh] all the water was in his shoes.
27:18 JO: What a memory, oh my word. How many, how many people did you serve, or how
big a restaurant was it? Were there five tables? Eight tables?
27:28 JM: I don’t know. It could have served fifty people or not, I bet it wasn’t, I bet it could
have served somewhere between, um, thirty and fifty. It was a quaint little restaurant. It was a
popular restaurant, and it couldn’t, just a lot of fun working for, uh, for Mrs. Simmons. And, uh,
um, while we’re on Butler Street, unless you’d like to move us off that street.
27:56 JO: Oh, no. Let’s stay on Butler Street
�27:57 JM: Walking around Butler Street, um, I liked to say a word for the Oosting (?) family.
Now Oosting’s was a furniture and appliance store. They, um, in the beginning when we first
moved they were only on the east side of Butler. And then they bought what again is the Glick
building. They were in there sort of on both sides of that. And just yesterday I had Bob Oosting
visit my home about a chair that I’d bought from him. And I pulled out a file, a paper manila file,
with Oosting’s on it. And he said “You have a file?” and I said “Bob, we bought our first
appliances from you, my family, in the fifties. Colored TV had just come out”
28:44 JO: Oh my word
28:44 JM: And you know people didn’t buy a television the basis of the technology of it. They
bought it as a piece of furniture. So, because it was. It was always in casing
28:56 JO: Casing yeah.
28:56 JM: A beautiful
28:58 JO: That’s right
28:58 JM: And you could choose oak or maple or whatever. And I remember, buying for my
parents this very lovely, um, TV. Uh, it was a color television from Bob Oosting. And I said to
him yesterday “Bob, I thought that when you’d sold the store this past year, that you had taken
off to parts unknown.” But the truth of it is, behind those uh three or four stores that are being,
that have been remodeled on his, on the east side of Butler there is um, a store in the back
that’s not accessed from Butler.
29:38 JO: From the front
29:38 JM: Go, just a little alleyway back, then you go in, and he’s sharing, he will be sharing
with a woman that’s going to, uh do what they call staging
29:50 JO: Oh yes
29:51 JM: By, uh home, you know make it look nice, and Bob’s going to do appliances there.
So, uh, so he’s still operating from from Saugatuck and, um, but he was impressed, and I said
“well, you are a fixture in this town. You’re family.” They must have started that business in the
forties maybe
30:10 JO: Because they were here before you came.
30:11 JM: Yes. And, and after his parents died, then he and his sister, uh, operated it, and then
after she, after her death, and now Bob has kind off being going, you know, solo on it but I
thought for sure he had um, he had uh
�30:29 JO: Said enough
30:29 JM: Left the area. You know. Yeah
30:32 JO: Well that’s neat. Spell Oostings for us
30:35 JM: O-o-s-t-i-n-g. You know. That. We were the first family of our immediate
grandparent and so to, to move this way out of Chicago. But then our grandparents moved in
the Fennville area, and Grandpa Fred Muehlenbeck was a custodian at Fennville Schools
30:55 JO: That’s right!
30:56 JM: Yes
30:56 JO: I remember him
30:58 JM: Yes. And he, and he was just the kind of guy that if he saw a child without mittens or
a hat or whatever
31:05 JO: Yup, he
31:05 JM: He’d go home with the story, and then he got grandmother involved, and you know
the whole bit and
31:10 JO: That’s right
31:11 JM: And then my aunt and uncle moved, um. My aunt’s name was Lorraine Milnky (?).
And she, um, had a sewing room. She altered the clothing from the different stores, wherever
they sold men’s usually men’s trousers, men’s pants. They would call her and let her know they
were sending up a customer, would she measure and sew. So she did all the alterations. And
she lived just a little bit east of me, so she was on the corner of Elizabeth, where the high school
is. Elizabeth and, uh, Hoffman. Right on that corner that now is an entrance to the high school
parking lot. Yeah.
31:54 JO: And then you would go to the left or go north to the high school now
31:56 JM: Yeah, yeah. She was south, south of the actual building. And she was there, and um,
on neither my mother nor she drove, ever drove. Because in Chicago you didn’t have to.
32:08 JO: You didn’t need to.
32:09 JM: You had public transportation, the subway, you had the bus you know but. So, my
aunt became a part of a small group of seniors who thought wouldn’t it be cool if we could have
some sort of transportation in this community. So they, um, they went to Allegan, and they did
�all the petitioning and everything they had to do on behalf of the people here, and in 1980, the
inner urban started running. And, uh, I know that you probably interview Phyllis Ike (?) who’s
the director there. Um, but I think she can tell that, in the beginning it was just a godsend to the
people who couldn’t drive, maybe because they were elderly, maybe because they were
disabled in some way, but today just so many people. I mean it’s only fifty cents for a senior to
ride it, you know?
33:03 JO: [laugh] you can’t beat that can you? And I’ve seen it out here on Blue Star and so on
33:07 JM: And, and they have a lift. So you tell them when you call the bus, “I would like the
lift” and I mean, you have to be in a chair or on a walker, but they have a platform that just
comes right down. And you just walk right onto it and get into the bus. And um, I’m working
with Phyllis right now to get an arrangement for chamber music because the problem with our
patrons is parking.
33:35 JO: That’s right
33:36 JM: They get into Saugatuck
33:37 JO: there’s no place
33:37 JM: And they can’t find parking. So I’m trying to work out a plan whereby they would go
to the high school at 7pm, there would be a bus that would take them down to the women’s
club.
33:45 JO: That sounds good
33:46 JM: And then at 10 pick them up. Take them back to their cars. And um, so Phillis says
she doesn’t know why that won’t work on a Friday. Cause they provide the services anyway on
Friday. If we were to do it on Thursday, which is another night of the concerts, um, we’d have
to pay for the driver’s time, you know, but even so.
34:06 JO: Well good luck with that.
34:06 JM: Yeah
34:07 JO: And speaking of transportation, Jerry, when you first came here to this building, how
did you get here? Did your dad drive you? Joy could probably drive then? How did you get to
34:19 JM: I didn’t go across the bridge, remember?
34:21 JO: Oh, right. That’s right. You didn’t have to because you lived there.
34:24 JE: How did I
�34:24 JM: [laugh]
34:25 JO: How did you get here? Cause you lived that way. South of town
34:28 JE: On Hooter Road
34:29 JO: On Hooter Road. But how did you get here? I’m sure you didn’t walk.
34:33 JM: You went on the bus.
34:34 JO: Oh did the school have the bus?
34:34 JE: There was a bus
34:34 JM: Yeah
34:35 JO: Saugatuck/ Douglas School bus?
34:36 JM: Yeah
34:37 JE: Probably. Ok.
34:39 JM: Yeah
34:40 JO: So it would pick you up.
34:41 JE: yeah
34:42 JO: Now did the front of the building look like it does now?
34:46 JE: Oh no.
34:46 JO: Tell us. What was different?
34:47 JE: It just looked old
34:49 JO: [laugh] you mean now it does, now it looks young?
34:52 JE: Well it’s had a renewal
34:56 JO: Well now, when you walked in the front doors and you said that you were in the
building which we are right now. Just upstairs on the right hand side as you face the building.
How did you get up here? Were there stairs in the center like there are now? Were there
�divided stairs? Where were the bathrooms? We talked about bathrooms before. Did you have a
fire escape? I can remember I had a fire escape that looked like a big smoke stack. You’d slide
down and use wax paper to make it more slippery. How did you do that? Do you remember
Jerry?
35:24 JE: Well you took the photos, right?
35:25 JM: Yeah. But you had, wasn’t there a long stairway when
35:29 JE: Yeah
35:29 JM: When you first walked in?
35:30 JE: Yes
35:30 JM: I, there was a stair way. Yeah
35:42 JE: Yeah.
35:34 JO: In the middle then? Right out the doors? When you walked in the doors you walked
right up?
35:37 JM: I think it was
35:38 JE: Yeah. That’s going back
35:39 JM: I wasn’t here very many times, um, and I think there was there too
35:42 JE: Yeah. There were stairs. And, uh, I must have gotten here by bus because my mom
didn’t drive. My dad was in Chicago, so I didn’t walk it
35:52 JM: Yeah. I’m trying to think, probably my recall on the bus deals more with when you
were picked up to go to Fennville High School, but you still had to have a, must have had a bus
to get here because I know that I didn’t provide that particular, uh
36:07 JE: And I don’t think Ty ran
36:08 JO: No I don’t think he would carry you on his back like [laugh]
36:12 JE: [laugh]
36:12 JM: [laugh] I don’t think so
�36:16 JO: What about the bathrooms here? Were there bathrooms? Indoor bathrooms or did
you have outdoor privies?
36:20 JE: No, we had indoor
36:22 JO: And so it was much more
36:23 JE: Yeah
36:23 JO: Up to date. OK
36:24 JE: yeah. Yeah. Um, but there was just, it, it was such a change from coming from 2,0001500, probably school in Chicago, and then out here to a school with 6,7,8th grade in it. It, it
was, it was quite a shock.
36:49 JM: Didn’t you have trouble with your lunch disappearing for a while?
36:52 JE: Yeah. I think it was Ty Hackney again
36:54 JO: [laugh]
36:55 JM: I think it was a dog.
36:56 JE: That could be too. But I re- I remember that I would, um, well I would get to school
somehow. So it had to have been a bus because nobody else could bring me. But, um, I’m trying
to think. I lost track of what I was going to say
37:15 JO: Well you had the lunch, you had to bring your lunch. They didn’t have hot lunches
here.
37:18 JE: No. No. Absolutely not. We had to bring our lunch and
37:22 JO: And if your lunch were still there at noon did you eat it in the room, at your desk or
go outside depending on weather or what?
37:28 JE: Right. Outside if it was, you know
37:31 JO: Nice
37:32 JE: Nice. Otherwise yeah. We had no other choice except to eat it, you know, in the
classroom.
37:42 JO: Where did you store your lunch when you came in? Was there a shelf or something
where you’d put it? And that’s where yours disappeared?
�37:46 JE: That’s all I remember.
37:48 JO: What did you do when you didn’t have a lunch?
37:48 JM: I remember your crying about your lunch, but I thought a dog had come into the
building and taken it. [laugh] Maybe I’m wrong
37:56 JE: Well, I also cried I know when, first day I came home and said “He pulled my pig tails.
I don’t want to go back there. I, nuh uh. This was not for me.” Not when someone could just,
you know, like they’re milking a cow. I remember that. I got used to it, obviously, and um
graduated.
38:23 JO: Ok. What age was graduation. Well wait no. Before we get to graduation. When you
were in Chicago you had probably several eighth grade classes. Where you were in a classroom
where you had science or math or whatever. But here you just had these few kids, and the
teacher couldn’t meet with you all the time, could she?
38:42 JE: No.
38:44 JO: Ms. Hevit (?) teach you there?
38:44 JE: Mrs. Ramp (?)
38:45 JO: [gasp] Did she live in Fennville?
38:48 JE: I believe so. She was our teacher.
38:51 JO: What was her first name?
38:52 JE: Uh,
38:54 JO: Wilma?
38:55 JE: Wilma Ramp. Yes. And I, in my photos that I pulled the three teachers. Hathaway,
Ramp, uh, there was one other. [pause]. It’s in one of those, you know photos that I have here
39:10 JO: In one of those photos. Mrs. Ramp was your teacher?
39:14 JE: mmhm.
39:15 JO: What’d she’d look like?
39:16 JM: [laugh]
�39:18 JE: Oh
39:19 JO: Oh dear. Maybe this is dangerous, huh? Was she?
39:22 JE: Tall
39:23 JO: Tall, ok.
39:25 JE: and, and, not thin, but I mean she was,
39:29 JO: She was solid
39:31 JM: Oh solid
39:31 JO: Was she cruel?
39:32 JE: Oh no
39:33 JO: She was a nice lady? Oh good.
39:37 JE: I loved her [laugh]
39:37 JO: Oh that’s good. Because if she was mean
39:39 JE: She helped, she helped ease me into such a change.
39:48 JO: So she was very, very compassionate as far as you were concerned?
39:52 JE: And, um, she was a great lady.
39:55 JO: And you didn’t feel as if you were missing out on your education? Or did you?
39:57 JE: No. Um. It was a major adjustment. I didn’t have a choice, so at twelve years old I
just did the best I could as far as adjusting, and, uh, I think I adjusted quite well. Quickly.
40:20 JM: Yeah you did pretty well. You’re a pretty well-adjusted person I think. Pretty well.
You know
40:20 JE: The first day crying.
40:24 JO: [laugh]
�40:26 JE: When I came home that first day I cried. I’m not going back. I remember telling Mom
that. I’m not going back
40:34 JO: And what did Mom say?
40:35 JE: Well. Of course Mom says “Oh yes you are.” So.
40:41 JO: And don’t drop the spoon, right?
40:42 JM: And don’t drop the spoon. But you know, then after this, after the school closed,
um, you know then apartments were made here, and, um, I have a friend my age [clears throat]
excuse me, who lives in Tucson, Arizona. Kay Schrkeckengust.
41:00 JO: Kay. She worked with us at the Red Wood. Ok.
41:02 JM: Yes. Kay Schreckentgust. Now Kay Spencer. And her dad, Nolan, was the person
who worked on, on, uh changing this building into apartments.
41:13 JO: That’s right
41:13 JM: Yeah
41:14 JO: He. Spell Schreckengust for us.
41:16 JM: S-C-H-R-E-C-K-E-N-G-U-S-T.
41:25 JO: Joy, you are, you are an instructor there.
41:25 JM: And you know she’s exactly six months older than I. To the day.
41:30 JO: Really?
41:31 JM: So we mock her about being the older woman. And then I mock her, say, so how’s it
working. How’s it working? Can I make it? Yeah. It’s a good six month, you’ll make it through.
When she celebrated her 80th birthday, six months before I did, uh, she came to Douglas, and
she had out at the family home of Karen Schreckengust who, um, has since died, but she and
her nieces were there in Douglas, well, it’s really the Fennville address area. But anyway, um,
the whole theme was The Wizard of Oz. And the food, everything was thematically arranged.
Remember that, Jerry?
42:13 JE: yeah
42:14 JM: It was a beautiful, a beautiful you know. Everything was perfect. And then what
happened, but we got tornado warnings. I mean, could that have been anymore perfect?
�42:26 JO: Oh no, that’s right.
42:28 JM: Oh my gosh, you know. But, um, the nieces
42:30 JO: Did you have Toto with you?
42:31 JM: [laugh] yeah. We had red shoes and the whole thing. Til one of her nieces, Dawn,
who was an EMT, and had gotten notice that you know, that this was in the area. It did strike in
the area. Um, it wasn’t a full-fledged tornado, but it was a heavy, you know, a real heavy, heavy
wind. And I don’t know if it was to the degree that it was labelled that, but we were down in
the basement and we couldn’t believe,
42:59 JO: here we are for this party and
43:00 JM: And someone said that I believe that, uh, I’d like to know who her party planner
was, you know.
43:10 JO: [laugh]
43:10 JE: Well that could have been your birthday party too
43:11 JO: Yes, exactly
43:15 JE: And, I want to bring up my dad. Because when he moved out here, I’m trying to
think. When was he a policeman? He worked
43:22 JM: Uh, he worked as a security guard
43:25 JE: as a security guard, right. And he worked out on a boat. Now I’ll never forget, when
the boat moved away, he went to put his foot on to get on to the dock. And the boat moved
and he’s straddling the dock and the boat moved. It did, and plunk, he went down
43:45 JM: Yes. He worked for the Allegan County, uh Sheriff’s Department Marine Division,
and that’s when that particular happened. Yeah. Could have been
43:58 JO: That could have been real hairy
43:59 JM: Real dangerous right.
44:01 JO: Where were, where were the boats moored then? That he was going to get out with
44:06 JM: Uh, well now they’re at the museum across the, the one that’s across the, I don’t
know if that’s where it was. I mean it was on the other, this side of the river and time
�44:16 JO: On this side
44:16 JM: But, yeah, I think right next to the, I think, isn’t that true when you take the
pontoon, don’t you see the Sheriff’s boat, um, docked by the south side of the museum there
44:26 JE: Oh yeah. By the museum. Right.
44:32 JM: But I, I think it might have been on the other side at that particular time, but, um
44:33 JO: Yeah. Yeah. I think so
44:40 JM: That was, that was a time when um, he, he liked his job very much, and he was
always on the water. Sometime he was back in the jail area. And he bragged about being able
to get, remember, a haircut and um, oh what else did he get. A haircut and a carwash. For five
bucks. And I said, Dad, what did they use to cut your hair? What do you think? They used a
knife or a scissors or whatever. They trust these, they’re prisoners. He said “Oh, but they’ve
done nothing serious. They got a year behind on alimony or something. You know.”
45:20 JE: Oh yeah. My dad was a very very trusting and loving person.
45:28 JO: This was in Allegan County then, where he, where the jail was. Oh my word
45:29 JM: Yeah, but, but, but he, when he went to Allegan County to
45:43 JO: For his hair cut and his car wash. Oh my goodness
45:36 JM: Haircut. Yeah. He was. But I, I remember talking about lunch too when we bought
lunch in the school, um, my first school was the Colf school
45:45 JO: Tell us where that is, yes
45:26 JM: And, and that is that was on 58th, which runs between Fennville and Holland. And if
you took Old Allegan Road to where it T’s at 58, and you look a little to your left, there’d be a
little knoll, and that’s where the one room school was
46:02 JO: And if you went down from there you could go down into New Richmond, correct?
46:05 JM: Yes. That was a look right, that was a little bit beyond it, but this was
46:05 JO: Ok, little funny road on there, ok, but about the Colf, spell Colf
46:10 JM: C-O-L-F. I think it was after somebody. I was going to look that up someday, but I
didn’t so, but I think it was named after someone in the, in the community. But, um, I
�remember the kids, um, had to carry their own lunch. And, um, they would often share
something with me. You know, maybe an apple, maybe a piece of cake of some sort. Uh, and I
was impressed that they would care enough about me that they would want to share their food
until one day I took, I heard a couple kids talking, and one person said, “Hey if you don’t like
that give it to Miss Muelenbeck. She eats anything.”
46:50 JO: [laugh]
46:53 JE: And she did. (pause) Still does
46:56 JM: But I had, I had one black family in my, in my school. All eight grades and one black
family. And I remember when it was so stormy, such a tremendous snow storm that, um, Mr.
Hornsby came to school, and he said “Blue Star’s been closed.” And so you won’t be able to get
back, um home
47:19 JO: the, the road. Blue Star Highway. Ok.
47:21 JM: The road. Blue star, uh road.
47:23 JO: Now, who is this man? Mr.
47:24 JM: Hornsby. H-O-R-N-S Horns B-Y.
47:29 JO: b-y
47:29 JM: y
47:30 JO: and he was a what
47:31 JM: He was a dad of, uh, of two of the kids
47:34 JO: Of the kids
47:34 JM: Yeah. And he just came to the school because we didn’t have a phone. You know. So
he came to tell me that, and he also came to invite me to stay at his home. He and his wife had
talked about it, and they wanted to house me that evening. And I’ll tell you, talk about a
gracious family. Uh, the towels had the Chesepeake, or the Chessy cat on it because he worked
for the train company
47:59 JO: Oh! For the train company. Ok.
48:04 JM: [laugh] But it was a delightful, delightful experience, but, they, it was a very strong
community at that time, and, uh, a very conservative community. Cause I still remember my
very first interview, uh for teaching, and they didn’t ask if I knew anything about teaching
�reading or about math. They asked two questions. Number one: would I open with devotions
every morning? And did I dance?
48:32 JO: Oo
48:33 JM: And I knew what they were asking with the dancing. And I said “Yes, I will open with
devotions.” So far as dancing I said “No, I don’t.” But I said “I don’t by choice. Um, I know
people enjoy it, and that’s fine. I simply don’t choose to do it. It’s an interest that I don’t have.”
But I knew what they were after
48:55 JO: After, that’s right
48:55 JE: Yeah.
48:59 JM: But, uh, you know, it’s interesting. It’s a wonderful community. I was there three
years. And every month they had a community dinner, potluck. And my mom would go with
me, and the kids would pump her for information. “Does Miss Muehlenbeck do dishes?” Does
she do this? I remember my mom saying to them one time, “Oh, I use Joy for my dishes for a
long time.
49:24 JO: Oh! [laugh] good pun, good pun. How many kids did you have in your classroom?
49:28 JM: I had about twenty, twenty-three to twenty-five, but that, that was
49:37 JO: In each grade?
49:37 JM: In individual kids. But some of them were families, you know. Two or three might be
from one family. I, I don’t know if you know Joanne Deyoung. She works at Christian neighbor.
She’s um, one of the head persons over there, um, and she had been my fifth grader. Uh, so,
and then she had a couple of brothers in the program too. For my seventieth birthday, uh, my
family gave me a gift of a reunion. So I had the kids come back
50:04 JO: Oh how neat!
50:04 JM: And we stood in the same arrangement as we had for, uh
50:08 JO: For a class picture?
50:08 JM: For it in 56-57, you know. Uh, and some of the guys were sixty-five, and I was
seventy. You can tell the age at that point, you know?
50:20 JO: [laugh] now that is neat.
�50:22 JM: Yeah. Got that picture hanging. They were a little bit big, but I could bring them. I
suppose they could be digitized.
50:28 JO: Oh, I bet. That would be wonderful. Yes. [pause].
50:32 JE: I have to correct myself on the Pavilion vs when the Pavilion, I saw the Pavilion burn
down. I was there.
50:42 JO: You were there that day and
50:43 JE: Yes, and but before that, the Pavilion, I wasn’t old enough to be, even around, the
Pavilion, other than the theater. Mmkay. Other than roller skating or something. But I would
walk along and see the yachts and everything. But it was the Rats Kellar that was in the Coral
Gables. That. Yes.
51:14 JM: Yes. There was a bar, there was a bar of some sort at the, at the big Pavilion too. I
don’t even, I don’t know what it was called
51:28 JE: Yeah but, yeah, but I wasn’t even old enough to be uh, be around.
51:28 JO: It was illegal for. You were, you were not of age.
51:30 JE: Correct, but I did, uh, love to dance, uh. And so I would go to the Rats Kellar when I
was old enough, and that was my haunting grounds and, so. But I did, yeah, see the Pavilion
burn down and all. Just about broke my heart. I can still you know.
51:52 JM: Yeah, well, Jean Underwood was of course on the other side, and if the wind hadn’t
changed course it could have burned down everything over there.
51:58 JE: That’s right
51:58 JO: Yeah
51:59 JM: yeah. Was living right there
51:59 JE: That was a sad day. And then both Joy and I worked, we worked for, um, for a time
at the museum. We had hostess
52:08 JM: Yeah we were, you know, were hostesses at Docen’s over there.
52:12 JE: Which was enjoyable
52:14 JM: Yeah.
�52:15 JO: That’s good, well can we go back to one thing that we didn’t, I didn’t clarify myself.
When you were here you graduated because you were in eighth grade. That was the top one.
That was your only year here. And Joy talked about this picture being taken. Did you have a
picture taken for graduation here? Or
52:34 JE: No
52:34 JO: No?
52:35 JE: Not that I recall
52:38 JO: How did you, how did you have your graduation? Did you
52:40 JE: We didn’t. It was
52:42 JO: It was just, you didn’t. At the end of the year, that was it?
52:44 JE: That was it. There was one more year of kids being here.
52:48 JO: being here.
52:49 JE: So I was next to last
52:52 JO: last, but
52:53 JE: But then I went on to Fennville. You know, high school
52:47 JO: But then when you left here as an eighth grader, did they have a picnic at the end of
the year? Did, what did they do at the end of the year. I can always remember, they would
always have a picnic, and we went out to Allegan County Park and
53:10 JE: No. We didn’t do
53:11 JO: Eelle Lake or something like that. You didn’t, it just, that was it?
53:13 JE: I don’t recall celebrating. When the school year ended everybody went their own
way. Do you remember, Joy?
53:21 JM: No. We were just glad you graduated.
53:25 JO: [laugh] Oh come on now, Joy.
53:29 JE: Scratch that from the, yeah. Audio
�53:32 JM: No. I don’t remember
53:36 JE: I went to Hope College. Now you don’t get into Hope College easily if you, you know.
So I just want to point that out.
53:42 JO: [laugh] and then you went to Fennville. Now was there a big difference between
here and when you went to Fennville?
53:45 JE: Oh yeah.
53:48 JO: Fennville was nothing like Chicago.
53:49 JE: I went to Fennville when it was on the hill
53:52 JO: The old school
53:53 JE: The old school. Ok
53:55 JO: Where the library is now
53:56 JE: Yes
53:58 JO: On Kindle street, or (?) it’s called.
53:59 JE: Mm hmm. And that’s where I graduated from. Uh. Yeah
54:06 JO: Because Mrs. Ward who used to teach kindergarten here. Didn’t she teach
kindergarten? I believe, taught sixth grade in Fennville. Mary Ward
54:14 JE: Oh, I remember, yeah.
54:15 JO: But you see, you would not have had her because you were going to be a ninth
grader then.
54:18 JE: Right
54:19 JO: And she, I believe, taught sixth grade.
54:22 JE: Exactly. Yeah.
54:23 JO: Mm.
54:24 JM: You know the, um, the, the academic program post, post high school differed from
the teachers to, because, um, in the beginning, uh, I’m talking about the end of the fifties when
�teachers needed who had gone through, um, the county normal program needed to pursue
additional credits, and of course got a degree, um. We didn’t go to Western, or to another
college necessarily, but a professor would come to us. So we took, uh, area teachers would get
together once a week.
55:05 JO: Oh really?
55:06 JM: And the professor would come to us
55:08 JO: All year long, or just for in the summer?
55:10 JM: Yeah, for a semester and I think it continued to a second semester but for a
particular period of time, like it would be going on campus. But they came, which made sense
because we were all teaching. We were all working, and one person could better travel than all
of us go the other way.
55:27 JO: That’s right.
55:28 JM: And they would come. And the other value to that was that a concept would be
taught, and then we were, um, encouraged to go try it. And so we would do it in our
perspective classrooms. We would reassemble the following week and talk about, did it, did
that idea work? Why did it work for you and not for me? What were the variables? You know,
and that kind of thing. And it was a wonderful, wonderful learning situation. I mean, it was a
practic as you could get
56:01 JO: Oh. You couldn’t get any more than that.
56:02 JM: No. No. No. Then, of course, a number of us would go during the summer, go to
summer school too, but
56:09 JE: one my—
56:09 JO: Because you had, go ahead, Jerry
56:11 JE: Um, I was saying that, when I went to Hope College, I went in to be a teacher, like
Joy. My dad said “Be like Joy. Get a teaching. You’ll never be out a job.” I remember him always
saying that to me. Jerry, you got be like. I think I had one semester, and I hated every minute of
it.
56:32 JO: [laugh]
56:38 JE: Hated it. And I said I am not fit for this. Truly am not.
�56:45 JO: Joy is Joy, and I’m Jerry. Right?
56:46 JE: Yes! And I wanted to go into social work. So badly. So when I continued at Hope
College, and I took time off because I had two children, while going to college
57:01 JO: Wow. That’s
57:02 JE: And I just, I did. That’s what I want to do. And I finished out Hope College. And I
started work at, uh, Ottawa County. And I stayed with them for well, 28 years. And the I was
able to go out after 30 years in because they were able to pull my two years that I took
education. Remember that, Joy? It was in the, and they were lucky they found it, because it was
during, they had the fire. They had a fire in the basement of Douglas School.
57:50 JO: Oh
57:51 JE: Years ago. And my papers fortunately were saved. And so they had, they took the
two years I was in the teaching arena. I never taught. But I took the—c--- t
58:10 JM: The class, the classes for it. Yeah.
58:11 JE: The classes for it. And they added my 28 years as a social worker and supervisor. I
was social worker for two years and then I was a, um, I continued as a, um. Two years as a
worker, then the rest I was a supervisor. And I was able to retire with 30 years in with state
58:39 JO: Hallelujah
58:40 JE: employment. So it just worked in my favor, even though I no longer wanted to be in
that type of education, as far as teaching. So
58:53 JM: Yeah she’s right about our dad because um of course I was, um, six years older, and
I got the same lecture, about um, you’ve got to think about something that’s going to always
ensure employment. And, in those days, uh, we’re talking about teaching, clerical work or
secretarial work, or what was the third thing?
59:19 JE: to—er
59:20 JM: Nursing!
59:21 JE: Nursing. Yeah. Nursing.
59:23 JM: There’s, well, blood makes me queasy.
59:27 JE: Still does
�59:27 JO: [laugh]
59:28 JM: [laugh]
59:29 JE: She couldn’t even hold my child when I was hemorrhaging one year.
59:32 JM: yeah she was just giving birth while I , but anyway
59:36 JO: And if one of the students cut his finger, go! Get him out of here! Don’t show it to
me! Right?
59:45 JM: So, anything, anyway, and then as far as secretarial work goes, you know, we took
short hand at that time and typing and I was not very fast at that and stuff, so, I got into
teaching. And, uh, I started off with the, um, you know, the one room school, and then I went
overseas for a year and then
1:00:06
JO: Oh, I didn’t know that. Where’d you go?
1:00:08
JM: Yeah, uh, in France
1:00:10
JO: oh really?
1:00:11
JM: And taught the dependents of Air Force personnel. There were American Air
force, and when I came back I was at Holland Public for years
1:00:16
JO: Oh really?
1:00:18
JM: and I
1:00:19
JO: Which building
1:00:20
JM: Um Lincoln. And then Washington. While I, while I was there at Washington,
I, there was a teacher that was ready to retire. And she came back from a phone interview one
time, and she said, “You know what? That’s not for me. They want a younger person that’s
willing to take these courses, because they’re looking for a reading consultant in West Ottawa
schools. And I bet that would be a good job for you.” She said “I’ll go get you an interview.” I
didn’t even have a chance to say maybe I don’t want it. And it was joke for two years because I
said, “I don’t know,” her name was Willie. I said “I don’t know whether to thank you yet,” but I
was in West Ottawa as a reading consultant for 24 years, but anyway, what I was going to say
was this, the state came around with that same 80 idea. That if you could add your age plus
your experience, and if it equaled 80 at least
1:01:15
JO: Oh really?
�1:01:17
years old.
JM: You could get full retirement. So in, in uh 87, I had, um, 30 years in. I was 50
1:01:26
JO: Oh my word
1:01:27
JM: and that was it. And I had been attending the United Douglas Church of
Christ since the end of the fifties. And they were, at that point without a, without a pastor. Um,
full time pastor, but um, they needed someone to kind of work as administrator. So I, I thought,
after I retired, then I had an opportunity to be an administrator at church. Administrator for ten
years. And I also had the chance to work for the metal sculptor, Ed Gray.
1:01:59
JO: Oh. Ok.
1:01:59
JM: In Fennville. And then I had the chance to do, whole sale selling for a friend
that made hand turned wooden items. And I rep’ed him along the 31 quarter to 32
1:02:16
JO: So repping him, you sold, you drove. All right
1:02:18
JM: Yeah, went to retail stores. Representing him wholesale so they could buy it.
You know, so I did that. I never said “Ha Ha Ha,” when I left, but I thought it. I had my cake and
ate it too.
1:02:31
JE: Yeah. And I loved social work. It just was my bag. And, um, I was fortunate I
stayed with Ottawa County for 28 years. And I was able to retire at 55 and get full benefits. So
we both choose the path we wanted to be at regardless of our father.
1:02:59
JO: [laugh] Yeah. Without your father, the two of you would not be here, right?
Oh that’s great. Is there anything else that you two can add that you’d like to think of. Um,
Andy advice, or anything like this that you’d like to give? You would never say, oh don’t come to
this area. Saugatuck Douglas area’s awful. You’d never say that, right?
1:03:18
JE: No, never, never, never, never.
1:03:19
JM: No, and I heard, uh, people last night talk about the beauty of it and that
whole bit. And I think, oh, that story is so true. People come here to visit, or people just come
for a weekend. And I live on a street now where I’m the only 24/7 person living on the block
1:03:38
JE: You are
1:03:39
JM: I am, because the houses are owned by people who live elsewhere. In fact,
one house at the end of my block is owned by a woman who lives in, lives in Texas. You know,
um, Dale Pond Realty owns one house and it’s used for coming and going. But I’ll say this about
the block, um, everyone keeps his, her property beautiful. And you know, if they’re not living
there, they’ve hired a service
�1:04:08
JO: service. Ok. Take care of it.
1:04:09
JM: And, you know the people next to me on one side, they live in Chicago. They
come out as they’re able, but they have someone take care of it. A couple of gentlemen bought
a house on the west side, uh they live in Palm Springs.
1:04:21
JO: Oh my word
1:04:23
JM: And, you know, they did as much work to make it look sharp. Uh. You know,
when they were here this summer. And they have, uh, you know, they keep an eye on it. They
have somebody watching the place. Telling them if there’s a problem. So, I mean, I think, I don’t
know if Saugatuck city council is going to have to address all these transient people or you
know, on, on my block there’s absolutely no problem.
1:04:50
JO: Great
1:04:51
live in Glen.
JE: And I love Douglas. Douglas is my town. Always will be. Even though now I
1:04:58
JM: I didn’t realize you were that far south then, oh
1:04:59
JE: Yeah. I live in Glen, and I’m fortunate enough to live on Lake Michigan. And so
that is a plus, but as far as, and the only reason I moved there is because I’ve been with John for
fifteen years
1:05:14
JO: Fifteen years’ now
1:05:16
JE: And yeah, and, but I, Douglas will always have my heart. When I stopped
working for social services, I wasn’t ready to give up working yet. So I jumped. I worked for all
the people who owned a business here.
1:05:38
JO: Oh right, up and down the main street then
1:05:41
JE: And I worked for all of them. When, when, up, oh what was her name? On
the corner, she, uh she had all the jewelry. The jewelry that I worked for on the corner. And
she’s now, is in South Haven. Uh, but the two Ed’s, I worked for. And right on down and old,
good old uh
1:06:07
JM: Walter
1:06:08
JE: Walter, the wonderful
1:06:09
JO: Walter the wonderful, wonderful, yeah.
�1:06:10
JE: And nobody, nobody but nobody can be a Walter the wonderful. Ever. And I
worked for him and his partner Barry at the time where they had the
1:06:20
JO: when they were still together.
1:06:22
JE: Uh huh, and um, I worked for them, and I worked for down the line. And then
when I moved to Glen, uh, John had this inner urban old, old inner urban bus. And that’s how I
moved my clothes and my shoes
1:06:43
JO: Oh my word
1:06:44
JE: And everybody I worked for came out to watch this truck come through
Douglas with all my clothes because of course
1:06:53
JO: They could, they could hung
1:06:54
JE: They could be hung. And everybody would like crazy because it was so funny
to see. There goes Jerry. She’s moving to Glen. And all my shoes, because I have a ton of shoes
also
1:06:54
JO: [laugh]
1:07:07
JO: Oh, is your name Emelda?
1:07:08
in
JE: Just about. But that’s how I ended up going to John’s house permanently was
1:07:15
JO: Oh my word.
1:07:15
JE: Inner Urban
1:07:15
JO: Inner Urban.
1:07:17
JM: I told Jerry I moved her so many times, and I told her “You know what? I am
not moving your clothes anymore. My clothes are mostly denim, and they stick together and
they don’t slide off. But you’ve got all these slippy slidey clothes
1:07:35
JO: This right here.
1:07:36
JM: I am, I’m not carrying those things. So John came with this bus and all she
had was hanging up on the bus
1:07:42
JO: Hanging. Oh. That’s neat. That’s neat
�1:07:44
JE: And that was, that was so much fun for everybody in town. You know? But I
just, belong. Other than Glen, I mean, I love Douglas
1:07:57
JO: We got Douglas, we got Saugatuck
1:07:57
JE: It will always be my town
1:07:58
JO: You’ve been in Saugatuck since 1970, you said, right?
1:08:03
JM: My, yes. The house I’m in, yes. Yeah. And I had gone right from our parents’
home. I bought this house from the Davis’ and yes. Bought it in 69, and um, I had a wonderful,
um, carpenter working for me who would do time and materials. And I loved to work with
wood in my hands. And so he’d come, he’d get me started. And then I’d get as far on the
project as I could. And then I’d call him. “Simon, I’m ready for another lesson.”
1:08:35
JO: Lesson.
1:08:36
JM: Um, or I need, I need some angles cut or whatever. And then he’d come
back over and he’d move me on again. At that time, um Forrester. I don’t know if you
remember Wallace Forrester.
1:08:47
JO: Forrester’s lived in Douglas, didn’t they?
1:08:49
JM: Yes, they do, and I don’t know if a family member----
1:08:51
JO: Seventh Day Adventists
1:08:53
JM: Exactly. Exactly. We couldn’t go there on a Friday, Saturday
1:08:56
JO: Friday nights, mmhm
1:08:58
JM: Um, but on Sundays we could, and, uh, the scouts would go there and I
would go there, and if I had just one dollar in my pocket, I came home with a whole car load of
wood. He worked for, he worked for Romer and maybe Chris Craft.
1:09:08
JO: Oh, they were so generous, yes. Oh. OK.
1:09:13
JM: And so he had some beautiful, um, mahogany pieces. And you know they
were just sold for ten cents. Maybe a quarter. And I built an eight frame play house, which I had
moved into my house in Saugatuck. I had to predrill the mahogany 2X4’s because you couldn’t
put a nail in it without pre drilling and then putting the nail in, but uh, I just love it. For me it
was like going to a candy store, you know, and just hauling all that wood back, but, um,
�1:09:47
JO: Forrester. F-O-R-R-E-S-T-E-R. Right?
1:09:48
JM: Yes.
1:09:50
JO: Did they have a daughter, Shirley?
1:09:51
JM: Um
1:09:52
JO: Oh no. What was it?
1:09:53
JM: They might have. I believe she married their son.
1:09:53
JO: I believe so. I can’t remember
1:09:56
JM: Remember, they, they, could have. This was the other Forrester but, they
lived out, where they lived at that time, out by Schmeecken
1:10:05
JO: Yes. Right into that, yes. By where Schmeecken is
1:10:05
JM: They were right in there, and um, I think that, um, they did so.
1:10:10
JE: And when I, when I worked in Douglas I also lived in Douglas at Mary Ellen
G(?)’s home.
1:10:18
JO: Oh. Where is this?
1:10:20
JE: Um, oh, what is that?
1:10:22
JM: Is it Washington?
1:10:23
JE: Washington. Yes
1:10:24
JM: Ok.
1:10:25
JE: And, uh, she rented to me for three, four years, before she had to move in
because her husband died and she wanted the home, but it was right near, but in Max. Cross,
Across the road. I was always the lady under the bridge so to speak because the bridge was
right were her home was. And I was fortunate enough to have that place. It was, you know, I
just loved it there.
1:10:53
JO: Well this has been great. I am really pleased. Thank you both. Joy.
1:10:59
JM: You’re very welcome
�1:11:00
JO: And Jerry. You have shared a lot with us, and I think this great. So you should
be very pleased, right? Oh. I’d better do this correctly. This concludes the interview
1:11:07
JM: [laugh]
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1910s-2010s
Source
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Various
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Michigan, Lake
Allegan County (Mich.)
Beaches
Sand dunes
Outdoor recreation
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Contributor
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Saugatuck-Douglas History Center
Identifier
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Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
Format
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image/jpeg
application/pdf
Type
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Image
Text
Language
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English
Date
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2018
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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DC-07_SD-MuehlenbeckJ-ElsingaJ-20181004
Creator
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Muehlenbeck, Joy
Muehlenbeck-Elsinga, Jerry
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-10-04
Title
A name given to the resource
Joy Muehlenbeck and Jerry Muehlenbeck-Elsinga (Audio interview and transcript), 2018
Description
An account of the resource
Sisters Joy Muehlenbeck and Jerry Elsinga describe adjusting to Saugatuck as young women after living in Chicago. Considerable discussion about the Pavillion and education in Saugatuck in the 60's and 70's.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Osman, Jane (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Allegan County (Mich.)
Outdoor recreation
Oral history
Audio recordings
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Documenting the Histories of Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas, Kutsche Office of Local History
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Relation
A related resource
Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Sound
Text
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
Language
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3cd7bbf055f4d3ba58ea1b26ed471b69.mp3
57f33e14f782d2c0d3c28939cba1ecff
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/49f4aaad095c2c0b3a73a8a85e5bbbb1.pdf
9e76eaafd9b45d01229ef12102362f4d
PDF Text
Text
Barbara Kiszonas- Interview by Tyler Smith
July 21, 2018
0:02
TS: All right. So this is Tyler Smith, and I’m here today with
0:11
BK: Barbara Kiszonas
0:13 TS: At the Saugatuck Douglas History Center in Douglas, MI, on July 21st, which is a
Saturday of 2018. This oral history is being collected as part of the Stories of Summer Project,
which is supported in part by a grant from the National Endowment of the Humanities Common
Heritage Program. Thank you for taking the time to talk with me today. I’m interested to learn
more about your family history and your experiences of summer in the Saugatuck Douglas area.
Can you please tell me your full name and spell it?
0:45 BK: My full name Barbara Kiszonas. Spelled, well Barbara you know, but Kiszonas. KI-S-Z-O-N-A-S.
0:54
TS: All right. Um. Do you use any accents when spelling your name?
0:59
BK: No.
1:01
TS: All right then. Can you spell Barbara really quick to just in case?
1:05
BK: All right. B-A-R-B-A-R-A [laugh]
1:08
TS: Standard Barbara spelling
1:10
BK: Standard
1:11 TS: Perfect. Um. So we’ll start off with some basic questions. So tell me about where
you grew up. Um. Yeah.
1:18 BK: Oh. All right. I grew up in Chicago on the north side, and lived there about, uh, until
I had my children, my two daughters. Um, and then we moved to New Jersey around, um, I
guess it was 1981.
1:38
TS: All right. What are some of your most vivid memories from your childhood?
1:43 BK: from my childhood? Oh my goodness. Um. Wow. Well, I grew up in a big family.
I’m the oldest of 8 children. So there was a lot of, always a lot of activity in our house. Uh, we
lived in a house on the north side of Chicago with a big yard. And um, we were pretty much our
own play group, although we did have other friends, obviously. But we did a lot of things in our,
in our big yard. Um, we had a big willow tree we like to climb. Um, we would play games, and
we would have parties there. Um, we even would like to, we would put on little fairs and shows
and sometimes the neighborhood kids would come. Um. So it was a lot of fun.
�2:24 TS: [laugh] That is excellent. Uh, so, if you could tell me a little bit more about your
family and family history, I guess particularly as would relate to this area. Who’s still in this
area? Who travels through here?
2:39 BK: mm hm. Um, well, my family I guess you could say is kind of immigrant family.
My, my father and myself actually were born in Ireland. And my mother is English, born in
London. And they emigrated to Canada, uh, when I was probably about 14 months old. And so
we lived in Canada for about 5 or 6 years. Um, and then my father had already left Canada
already to come down to the States to look for work. He was in construction. Um, and he first
went to New York and then he went to Chicago. And my mother and, at that time three children,
uh, eventually followed. And made our home in Chicago. So two of my brothers and sisters, uh,
one brother one sister were born in Canada as well, um. And we moved to Chicago, and that’s
when the reminder of the children were born. In Chicago.
3:41
TS: All right. And what was your father’s last name?
3:44
BK: Boyd. B-O-Y-D
3:46
TS: OK. What was your mother’s maiden name?
3:47
BK: My mother’s maiden name was Kronenburg (?)
3:50
TS: Ok. That is a pretty fascinating family history
3:53
BK: [laugh]
3:56
TS: All right. Um. [clear throat]
3:59 BK: And we went by train. I remember that. I was, um, probably 7 years old, and we
went by train from Canada. And I remember saying afterwards to my mother “I never knew how
long the night was until we rode on that train.” Because we didn’t really sleep very well, and you
know it was like it was still night outside. And yeah it was a long trip.
4:23
TS: Man. And how old were you when you came over from Ireland?
4:26
BK: About 14 months
4:27
TS: Ok. So you don’t remember that
4:29
BK: No. no.
4:30
TS: Did, how did your parents get over? Was it by boat then?
4:33
BK: By boat. Yes
4:34
TS: Ok. Wow
�4:36 BK: yeah. Yeah. Actually when I was 10 years old, um, our family took a trip back to
Ireland and England to visit relatives.
4:44
TS: Ok
4:45
BK: And that was the first time I’d ever been on a plane. It was Pan Am.
4:47
TS: All right.
4:48
BK: Yeah. It was great.
4:50
TS: That’s excellent. What, um, what county of Ireland is your father from?
4:54
BK: Antram
4:55
TS: Ok. Interesting.
4:58
BK: Oh, I guess. Yeah. Is that the county? Antram? I think it is. Is that the Province?
5:02
TS: Yeah. I have uh, a bare understanding of how it works over there
5:06
BK: Yeah. Northern Ireland
5:08
TS: ok.
5:09
BK: Yeah. Belfast actually
5:10 TS: Gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. Yeah. There, um, I don’t know if you’ve been up north in
Michigan, but I think there is an Antram county. There as well
5:18
BK: Yeah. I’ve seen some of the names. Yeah. Over there yeah.
5:25 TS: All right. Let’s see. Well you would qualify as a seasonal resident then. You spent
summers up here, correct?
5:35 BK: Uh, yeah, we spent summers. Like when I first went to camp I was still in grammar
school. And I don’t know if you want me to get into too much of that right now, but, um, came
for a couple of years and then what happened, um, when I was in high school. Some of my
brothers and sisters also came, but Mom came up as a cook for the camp.
6:01
TS: Ok.
6:02 BK: Um, so then she brought the younger children with her, and they stayed up for the
summer and we would visit. And I came up twice as a counselor. Once, uh, when I was in high
school, once when I was in college.
�6:15
TS: So then when, when would be the first time you were in Saugatuck Douglas?
6:20
BK: the first time, do you want me to say the year? And really date myself [laugh]
6:22
TS: You can if you want
6:24
BK: Um, I think it was 1961.
6:28
TS: Ok.
6:28 BK: Um. Yeah. That was my first time up here. The first time I had ever seen it. Um, one
of my friends from school, um, a girl named Linda, uh, in, had gone to camp, or maybe her older
sister had gone to camp. And so she invited me to come, and I did. And that was my first
experience. First time being in Michigan, and first time being in a sleep away camp.
6:52
TS: Ok. How long was the camp back then?
6:55 BK: It seems to me, I was talking about this with my sister. I think it was a little less then
two weeks. So I’m not sure if 10 days, 12 days, I don’t think it was full two weeks.
7:05
TS: Ok. That’s a pretty good chunk of time, though. To be away from home
7:07
BK: Yeah. It was, it was, yeah.
7:10 TS: And what was, um, what was your first impression? Especially being here for, um,
overnight stay probably with your friends, you know away from everything? For a block of 10
ten days. What was it like when you arrived in Saugatuck?
7:22 BK: Um. Well, we arrived by train back then. They used to leave from, I think it was
Grand Central, which is no longer there. It was down on Harrison Street I think. Anyway in
Chicago. Sort of like the near south side. And so that was an adventure coming on the train with
all the girls. I think we took up a whole car. And for years I’ve wondered where the train
stopped. Because there isn’t a train station in Saugatuck, but there is one in Fennville or there
was. And I think, I’m pretty sure it was the Fennville Station. We didn’t stop exactly in the town,
because I remember getting out of the train and it was like fields, farm fields all around us. So
maybe because we were towards the front and that end of the train stopped further away from the
station. Um. And there would be a school bus waiting. And the school bus would take us to
camp.
8:20
TS: Ok.
8:21 BK: Yeah. So I can still remember that being, looking out the train window and seeing
the school bus and, um. So anyway the school bus would take us to camp. And of course I think
this was the first time I ever saw sand dunes as well. So it, it was great to be out of the city. Like
I said. We lived on the north side of Chicago. Um. And I guess the really great thing about it was
�how close it was to the lake. Cause my family had always enjoyed being really close by the
water, and it great to have the beach within walking distance.
8:52 TS: Oh yeah. It must have been pretty amazing. Especially coming down the road toward
the camp, right? In the school bus on that narrow road going along the river.
8:57
BK: yeah. Yeah. Right.
9:02
TS: Man. Yeah. So. You were mostly struck by, I guess the natural area
9:07 BK: Yeah. Just the, the outdoors. The amount of time we were able to spend outdoors. I
mean, my family always did like to go to parks and to the beach and that, but it was nice to have
it right there at your doorstep. Everyday come out of your cabin, um, and just, you know, be able
to walk outside in the, just to be in the midst of the, the trees and just nature itself.
9:32
TS: Yeah.
9:34
BK: yeah.
9:35
TS: I guess when you went back home how did you describe that to your family?
9:39 BK: Well, my mother said, it was funny, my mother said for the first few days after I got
back from camp I was like an angel. It was just, I was a changed person for a few days anyway.
Until I got back in with my brothers and sisters. [laugh] But, uh, it really did I think create an
atmosphere of calm. Mm. Yeah.
10:03 TS: I understand that totally. Um so you’ve been coming to the area since 1961. What
places have you stayed?
10:12 BK: Well that’s interesting. When you go to camp, you go to camp, and that’s it. And
like we were talking before, the last day before you left camp, you would go into Saugatuck. We
would walk through the woods on a trail, and come down to the ferry you know, and take the
ferry across. And we were free I, I guess it was a few hours. I mean they specified a time where
we had to meet back, but it was the one time were we actually had, you know, a certain amount
of freedom to go, and to go to the drugstore. And we would go sometimes to the drugstore and
get ice cream or, um, a phosphate. Uh. Uh yeah. And then at that time they used to rent um, like
paddleboats right around the ferry area. Which they don’t anymore, so I don’t know when they
stopped that. A lot of times we would get in the paddle boat with one of our friends and kind of
paddle around Lake Kalamazoo, and um, also go to the post, also at the drug store we would get
post cards. Post cards to send home. Although they had those at camp too, because they, you
could buy them. They had a little, they called it a Tuck Shop. Kind of thing. Actually they called
it Shack. Which sounds funny now. And it was outside the dining room. And every day after
lunch. Oh, actually it was the rest period after lunch. But after that they would ring the bell, and
then you could go to the Shack. And they had the, they had like penny candy, um, you know.
Just little treats that you could get. And at the beginning of camp you came over with a certain
�amount of money, which handed over for the Shack. And so they would deduct it from your
account. If there was anything left you got that at the end.
11:56 TS: Yeah. That’s pretty cool. The credit system.
12:00 BK: Yeah. Yeah. It was, yeah. In fact, my sister, Jennifer who came up the next year
because she’s three years younger than me, um, she later on, when my mother was up at camp
being the cook, she would be, she was in charge of the shack. And she said she used to dread.
The kids would come pouring out. She was afraid they were going to knock over her, because it
was just about the size of um, not much bigger than a telephone booth. And it was right on the
edge of the ravine. She said she just envisioned someday they were just going to push her over
into the ravine. But that never happened.
12:35 TS: Oh, yeah. So it, now you said your mom came up to camp with you and your sisters,
did all of the members of your family? Have they been through this area?
12:44 BK: All of them have yeah. Um [throat clear] my mom didn’t come when we were
campers. She came up later on when I was in high school, and I was not going to camp anymore.
Um, and I think it was then at that time we got to explore more of the area. Because like I said,
when you came to camp you only came to camp. They had activities that were filling your day
every day and what reason would there be to go site seeing? You know, with camp activities, and
the beach, usually twice a day you can go there in the morning and then in the afternoon.
Campfires at night. So they really kept you busy. Um, but then as I came up later when I was a
teenager, um when my mom was at camp and my sister and I would sometimes drive up and
camp the family for the weekend, then we got to explore a little bit more. You know, what was in
Douglas, and at that time Douglas was, you know, nothing like it is now. Um, a lot of it had, I
don’t know. I don’t want to say closed down, but there were a lot of empty store fronts. And
there certainly wasn’t any artistic community. So about the only thing we did in Douglas was
sometimes go over to the bowling alley.
13:53 TS: ok
13:54 BK: Yeah. Um, yeah, and then of course we walked around Saugatuck. And that was fun
and taking the chain ferry, um, and then later on, um, when our daughters were very small, when
my husband and I were still living in Chicago we would come up here sometimes, um. And we
would stay at what was then called, uh, Shady Shores? Um, which is all condos now
14:20 TS: ok.
14:21 BK: Right at the entrance of Saugatuck. Right on the riverside. It’s all new condos. But
at that time it was little cinderblock cabins. And we would stay in that. And we would walk in to
town from there, um. Um, and I remember our little girls would like we would take to the
playground, and Pumpernickel’s was at that time kind of a campy store. So we’d go in there to
pick out candy
14:50 TS: That’s cool
�14:50 BK: yeah.
14:51 TS: So how, um, would you say that Saugatuck has changed from when you first got
here as a camper and you just saw it as a camp to when you bring your kids here to now?
15:00 BK: Uh. Well obviously it’s gotten more and more built up over time. I guess it always
was kind of an artist’s community. Oxbow was still, or was pretty active back then. When I was
a camper I didn’t know anything about it, but later on, and we visited there. Um. Certainly a lot
more restaurants. Um. The waterfront has probably been improved. Uh. Lot more boats, although
I can remember as a camper walking along and looking at the big boats and just being in awe of
these beautiful big boats and trying to imagine what it would be like to go on one of them. Rich
people [laugh]
15:44 TS: [laugh] right
15:45 BK: just a dream.
15:46 TS: I know, it’s still a dream. Walk down the board walk
15:52 BK: Yeah. Yeah. I know. It’s fun just to look at them, and it was back then. Yeah.
15:57 TS: Definitely. Well, what was um, your favorite place to eat in the summer? That could
have changed. You know, several different places.
15:59 BK: Oh my goodness. What was our favorite place to eat? Um. I rem, probably the
Butler. You know just because we didn’t know a lot about what else was here and we started
going there, and yeah, we enjoyed going there. And it was a good place to take kids. You know?
You didn’t worry about being too formal or anything.
16:30 TS: Yep
16:31 BK: Not that anyplace in Saugatuck is formal. But it was just very casual family
atmosphere. And there used to be a place called the Logan Muff. Loaf and Muff Deli. Which is
where Hercules, which was where Hercules is now. Yeah. And we used to enjoy going there for
like a casual breakfast or lunch sometimes.
16:52 TS: Yeah. I remember that place too. Uh, did you ever get a summer job in the area?
16:58 BK: No. Other than camp? No. no.
17:01 TS: ok.
17:02 BK: I came up probably when I was about 15 and was what they called a junior
counselor, and then I came back when I was in college and was a full counselor.
�17:09 TS: ok. All right. Well, we’ll dive into those in a few minutes I think.
17:14 BK: ok.
17:15 TS: Um, did you spend time on or near the water? Which we know you spent some time
at the beach, yeah.
17:18 BK: A lot. A lot. As much as we could
17:24 TS: Perfect. Yeah. What did you guys do? Uh. In the water? In the area?
17:28 BK: Um. Well we mostly. We would go to the beach and mostly just play in the water.
Play, swim. Whatever. And I said at night we would have campfires. Sometimes. Down on the
beach. And, um, actually sometimes, I forgot, there were sometimes when we’d come up for a
family camp that they had. And we would come up actually after we moved to the east coast we
only came a few times because it was a long trip. But we would go to the family camp and they
would have campfires on the beach. It was nice.
18:01 TS: That’s excellent. Outside of the paddle boat excursions on Lake Kalamazoo, did you
ever get out on a boat?
18:06 BK: Yeah. Uh. We’ve, we’ve rented a pontoon. We’ve gone, again as we came up. We
sort of, my family itself as we had such a big family, um, we sort had our own little reunion,
camp reunion, up, you know, up here. And we would get the canoes from Camp Gray and go out
and that was fun. And we also rented pontoon, and we had we’d gone kayaking from the uh, boat
launch in Douglas
18:40 TS: Ok. Yeah.
18:41 BK: We actually, my husband and I actually have our own two person kayak, which we
have used I think one time in the three years we’ve owned it [laugh]
18:48 TS: [laugh]
18:50 BK: um, but anyway. We’ve used several different kinds of boats on the water.
18:57 TS: Cool. Yeah. A lot of manual powered
19:00 BK: Yeah I guess that’s why maybe I’m not too crazy about it. Um. It takes some
strength in your arms. Yeah.
19:10 TS: Oh it does. Yeah. Especially in the river currents if you have to go back up
19:15 BK: Yeah. It’s nice if they drop you off. Like we rented kayaks from, um, whatever the
name was that, from Douglas. And she drove us up to I think New Richmond. And then, then we
came down. And that’s nice. You just come down the river and you get off. But when you take it
�out yourself that’s another story because you’ve got to get yourself up the river and back down.
Yeah. So we don’t normally go too far. Just kind of paddle around that little bay.
19:44 TS: Yeah. Makes sense. So how’s the river changed since the first time you’ve seen it.
19:49 BK: A little busier I guess. Yeah. More boats on it. You know. We had some friends that
had a cabin off, on Lake Kalamazoo. I’m trying to think. Off of the old Allegan Road.
20:05 TS: Ok
20:06 BK: And we went out one time with them in a rowboat. But it was a very quiet area, so
you didn’t really run into other boats. And I guess the bigger boats don’t really go up the river.
They mostly stay in the marina and then go out to Lake Michigan. So you don’t really run across
them. Although sometimes motor boats and you know, you have to watch out for them.
20:24 TS: Yeah. They don’t watch out for you sometimes
20:27 BK: Yeah. Yeah. You hope they’re watching out for you.
20:30 TS: Right? On those busy weekends though you can never tell.
20:31 BK: Yeah. So it’s usually, if you’re going to go, it’s usually better to go during the week
when it’s not that busy. Like the weekend
20:39 TS: Not major holidays either.
20:41 BK: Right
20:42 TS: Um, you talked about spending time in Douglas. Um, I guess could you tell me a
little more about the difference between the two towns.
20:54 BK: Oh. At the time. When we first started coming Saugatuck was really where all the
action was. Douglas was, was a little sleepy backwater town. Um. There really wasn’t much to
do in Douglas. You know, I can’t, there probably were some things, but like I said, um, we really
didn’t venture beyond the Demonds, which, the grocery store. Um, you know, it’s been there for
such a long time. Um, or the bowling alley. And that’s probably as far as we went. I don’t think
we went to the library at that time, because, just because we were more oriented toward the
camp. Yeah.
21:32 TS: Yeah. Yeah. All right.
21:35 BK: So I, you know. My memory of Douglas is just, there was nothing there.
21:39 TS: Yeah.
21:41 BK: In the 60’s [laugh]
�21:42 TS: It’s changed a lot even in my life time, too.
21:46 BK: Yeah, yeah. It continues to change. Um, yeah. You know the buildings. They put up
Center Street and just you know, things have been coming more alive. Pretty much active in the
downtown area of Douglas. And even started to extend on Center Street toward the lake, which
you know was never really there before.
22:08 TS: Wow. That’s pretty crazy. Yeah. Are there any other places or institutions that were
important to you in the area. We talked about the camp, you talked about
22:18 BK: Um. Well. I am a member of the historical society. Um, and I always like to go and
see what exhibits they’re showing in museums, so. My family has always loved going to
museums, so we were really happy to see that being active, and the programs here at the school
house as well. Other institutions? Um, I can’t really say I can’t think of them off hand, but you
know. [laugh]
22:52 TS: Good. That’s totally fine.
22:56 BK: Great supporter of the library too. I hope they get their new building.
22:58 TS: yeah. That’d be great. Right? All right. Let’s see. So where, where is your vacation
home currently in the area.
23:09 BK: In Douglas.
23:11 TS: In Douglas
23:12 BK: In Tower Marina
23:13 TS: Ok. Excellent
23:14 BK: Yeah. By the water. [laugh] Well you know, um, almost any place in Saugatuck
Douglas, you’re near the water. Not far, but we really like being able to look at the marina from
our patio. It, uh, yeah.
23:32 TS: It is a wonderful thing.
23:33 BK: Yeah. It is, it is
23:35 TS: That was the biggest problem I had in Tucson is that there’s no water, so it just starts
to grate on you
23:38 BK: Oh yeah, I, yeah. I guess a lot of people like that, but I can’t imagine living in a land
locked place. Even in Chicago had the lakefront. Which is great. You know within, within half
an hour um, you could be on the beach.
�23:58 TS: Yeah. Yeah. What, what neighborhood in Chicago were you
24:04 BK: uh, it, it’s called Irving Park. It’s in, it’s the Northwest side. Yeah. Well, I grew up
there. Then my husband moved to live a little bit further west. Moved to Portage Park for a few
years. Several years I guess.
24:20 TS: Yeah. So, Irving Park. I spent a year in Chicago, so I was up in that area, um, easy to
get to the lake from there.
24:28 BK: yeah. Yeah. You can go straight down to Irving Park, although my friends and I
used to go to Foster Beach which is a little bit further north. Uh. Yeah.
24:35 TS: Yeah. There’s a dog park in there now
24:42 BK: Oh is there?
24:42 TS: Yeah. You know. All right, I think we should dive into your, your camp experience
24:48 BK: Oh, ok
24:50 TS: So give me the, the breadth of your experience. You started off as a camper and
ended up as a senior counselor
24:57 BK: Counselor yeah. Yeah, uh I actually went to camp as a camper for I think only two
years. And my sister, my sister came my second year, and then she went a few more years. And
then my brother came. Brother Jim came and brought his friends. And then, uh, I’m not sure
about the younger siblings. How many of them went to camp on their own, or if they just came
up with my mother. I’m not sure about that. Um, and one thing I should mention because we’ve
been talking we were talking earlier about Camp Gray, um we were actually in a separate camp
called Peniel Camp, that was part of Camp Gray. But it was one section, and sometimes you’ll
see old pictures of the Penial Dining Hall, and it went up the hill probably, um a little bit to the
north
25:46 phone starts ringing in background
25:47 TS: I guess we’ll wait for the phone to stop ringing. I have no authority to answer it, so
we just have to
26:00 BK: Ok
26:05 pause while waiting for phone to stop ringing
26:07 TS: All right
�26:08 BK: All right. So Peniel was on the north end of Camp Gray. And the activities were
totally separate. They did not mix at all. It was a different, different, maybe population. The time
we went to camp, and I can’t swear to it, but my impression was that Camp Gray, the boys and
girls camp was for primarily intercity at that time, um, and we came from the north side of
Chicago. And some of the kids also came in from the suburbs, so camp, Peniel Camp was much
smaller, probably I’m going to say, maybe 25-30
26:45 TS: Oh, ok
26:47 BK: Yeah. Girls or boys. The girls and boys were separate. They had different camps,
um, so it was a smaller group, um, and um, different activities from Camp Gray. We didn’t even
share the same beach. There was, yeah, totally separate. In fact when I went to camp I did not
even know what Camp Gray looked like.
27:08 TS: Really?
27:10 BK: Yeah. Never ever went over there. So it’s not til I got older that, um, that I found out
about the rest of it, and we actually go over there sometimes. You know. Especially when they
had the camp, the family camp, or the camp reunions we would sometimes go over to their
dining hall. But when we were campers no. It was totally separate.
27:30 TS: Wow. And how’d you spell Peniel
27:35 BK: P-E-N-I-E-L
27:38 TS: Ok. So entirely separate? Separate administrations?
27:40 BK: Everything.
27:41 TS: Really. Wow. And there’s, uh, so you never actually even saw the other camp while
you were there.
27:46 BK: no. No. Um, when we would go down to the beach, was as close as we came. They
were up on the hill from us. And you could look up on the hill and sometimes you would see,
you know, the other kids, but. Never any mixing, intermingling. Whatever.
28:08 TS: So, back then, what, what did you think of that? Another camp and you just didn’t
know
28:14 BK: Um. I don’t know. They were just different kids from a different place. I don’t
know. They just, we had different schedules. Maybe it was, maybe they scheduled the beach
time so we weren’t on the beach at the same time. Maybe that’s why we didn’t see them.
28:28 TS: That could be. Yeah.
�28:29 BK: Yeah. I don’t know. But I also think that their beach, I mean honestly the whole
shoreline is beach, but I think that when they went down to the beach they were much further
down then us. Yeah. So we never saw them in the water or
28:40 TS: Ok. Ok. Yeah. That’s fascinating
28:44 BK: Yeah.
28:25 TS: So then for camp, Camp Peniel, was there a specific focus for the camp, or was it
mostly like get away do activities sort of basic camp.
28:54 BK: Um, they were both sort of under the hospices of the Presbyterian church. Um, I
suppose they had similar programs. I mean we would start the morning after breakfast we would
have chapel. And, um sometimes in the evening, but then there were various activities
throughout the day. And, uh, well, here’s one difference. Peniel was started by a group of what
they were called at the time Hebrew Christians. So they were Jewish people who believed that
Jesus was their Messiah. So they had that distinctive about them, but really and so there was a, a
block of people who had been part of this community center on the north side of Chicago who
had since moved out to the suburbs. And their children continued to come. But anybody then that
lived in the neighborhood, no matter what religion or background they had was welcome to come
to camp.
29:50 TS: Ok
29:51 BK: So. There was at that time it was run by a couple called Mr. and Mrs. K, our camp.
Uh. The K stood for Kominski but everybody called them the K’s. And Mr. Kominski would tell
Bible stories during chapel. And he was such a fascinating person. He’d be telling stories from
the Old Testament about David or whoever and he would just tell them in such a graphic way. It
was so entertaining. Of course it was before, um, you know all of the media that we have today.
But he was just a lovely, lovely person. Everyone loved him, and he was really the heart of the
camp. And then later on his nephew, Larry Rich took over. And when I came as a counselor
Larry was in charge, and we got to be good friends, and Larry was the minister at, uh, our
wedding.
30:42 TS: [laugh] very nice
30:44 BK: So that, that is a connection there
30:45 TS: Yeah. Yeah. That’s really cool. And you mentioned you know, that one of your
friends brought you up to camp and your brother brought his friends up to camp, so was it like a
local neighborhood word of mouth
30:58 BK: Yeah. Yeah it was. It was pretty much because I don’t know if they, if out of the
community center, outside they probably you know, promoted it. Advertised it. But, um, for us it
was word of mouth. Mmhm.
�31:14 TS: That’s cool. Do you know if, um, Camp Peniel and Camp Gray were on the same
timeline then? Did they both, were they sold at the same time?
31:22 BK: Um, [throat clear] Camp Peniel, um, probably ended, oh my gosh, um, I don’t think
they had campers past the 70’s, but they continued the family camp. And that was probably just
like once a year. You know, maybe like um, I think for a long weekend. They did have like a
week of family camp in between, but it got to be I think, um, like in the 2000’s, it was just
maybe like a long weekend. Uh, in the summer. Mm hm.
32:02 TS: Ok. And then, so what, what activities do you remember from your time as a
camper? Not necessarily the activities you did, but where did you sleep, where did you eat, you
know. Anything that stands out.
32:15 BK: Ok. Yeah. Um, well we slept in wooden cabins. Had no insulation. Of course you
didn’t need it in the summer. But basic, you know. The bare wooden walls. Um, pretty primitive
accommodations. You brought your own bedding. Um, thin mattresses. Uh, single, single beds
and in one set of cabins they had, um, they, they were probably I don’t know, three or four
different types of cabins. Um, some of them would sleep like three people. Two campers and a
counselor. Um, some of them would sleep 8 in bunkbeds. And I know there was one up in the
hill, up in the hillside that had the sinks outside. So I think I think it had, oh gosh, um, yeah. You
had to go outside to wash. I know that. And I don’t know exactly, if there was a toilet in the
cabin itself or not. I mostly stayed in the other ones that had just a sink and a toilet both enclosed,
but pretty, pretty primitive. But you didn’t spend much time in there. You slept in there and you
were busy all day long doing stuff. Um, and the dining hall, um the meals I’m going to say again
were pretty simple. The camp, camp was incredibly cheap. I mean I don’t even remember, but it
seemed to me that even back in the 60’s and of course that is a long time ago, it was something
like $20, $25 for a kid. So cheap. So you know they did what they could with the money that
they had. They certainly, we certainly didn’t have anything that was tech because there wasn’t
anything like that back then. But we had a lot of activity and the meals were pretty simple. Um, it
was enough to eat. I’m not going to say that you went hungry. They had this policy that you had
to sample everything. Even if you just took a tablespoon, you had to sample everything. Yeah, so
if you were a fussy eater, well you might be out of luck. But that was interesting because, um,
when as I mentioned the previous director’s nephew took over, one of the things he changed is
no more powdered milk. He said “I couldn’t stand when I was a kid, when I was a kid, and we’re
not going to have it now.” [laugh]
34:35 TS: [laugh]
34:38 BK: And also when my mom came in as cook, um, she, she introduced uh, different
foods. Having raised 8 children, she knew what kids liked and didn’t like. Um. And she said her
kids were the fussiest eaters. She had to make something different for every of them, every night
was like running a restaurant. Well at camp they didn’t do that. Um, there would always be an
alternative. If you didn’t really want to eat something you could have a bowl of cereal. Yeah.
Yeah, right? And, uh. Oh yeah, I was just thinking about some of the activities. One thing that
we used to do and I hadn’t thought of before we used to always have an outing, maybe two
outings to Mt. Baldie. We called it Mt. Baldie at that time. I think they call it Mt. Baldhead now,
�but it was always known as Mt. Baldie back then. And so then we would go over there, and we
walked everywhere. We hiked everywhere. Which is another reason we didn’t go very far. But
anyway we would go over to Mt. Baldie and, um, we didn’t climb the stairs but we did, I think
we up the back side of the mount, the dune. From the beach. And then they would have trails that
you would run down, and sort of like, yeah. Just running down them. And they had names to
them. I don’t remember the names now. My brother would. But um, so and yeah, yeah. That was
a lot of fun. And then you would come down. There’s a pavilion right at the bottom of Mt.
Baldie, and there would be somebody there. And they would have like peanut butter and jelly
sandwiches or whatever kind of sandwiches they made. And we’d all eat there before we went
back to camp. One of my brothers, my oldest brother, Jim. The one that was born up in Canada,
um, I think set a record. He went up 20 times, 20 or 21 times, hiked up and ran down. [laugh]
36:32 TS: Jeez [laugh]
36:33 BK: He deserves a special t-shirt for that.
36:38 TS: Yeah. Oh man. Because I’ve done it lately, and I did it three times. And I was done.
36:42 BK: I know, right? Oh, I know, he was probably about 12 or 13 then. Lot more, lot more
energy [laugh]
36:48 TS: Yeah, boundless energy back then. Oh that’s cool. Um, what was like your favorite
location in camp. Was there a specific spot that you enjoyed them most?
37:00 BK: Oh. Other than the beach? Cause really the beach was, I think a big draw. Um, we
had like a game area outside of the dining hall. Uh. It was down the hill a little bit. And they had
shuffle board and ping pong, and they had this pole with a ball attached called tether ball. Yeah.
So the games were fun too. And there was free time. And we had a lot of activities scheduled,
but there was also free time, sometimes after supper or sometimes in the afternoon and you could
play games. And there was also a volleyball court up on the hill. And we used to play games up
there sometimes.
37:40 TS: Ok. Nice.
37:43 BK: Yeah. And we used to hike. We used to play a game called capture the flag. And we
would do that in the dunes. We would go over by Oval Beach in the evening
37:52 TS: Oh, that’d be the ultimate capture the flag spot
37:53 BK: Yeah. [laugh]
37:56 TS: Fantastic. Do you keep up with any of your friends from the camping days?
38:01 BK: Um. No. Not really no. Um, I’ve heard stories of some of them going around the
world, but no. Actually I won’t say I actually kept up with my friend that first invited me, Linda,
but um, I did get in touch with her sister on the internet one time. Her sister, who told me that
�Linda married a man whose mother owned a place in Saugatuck. So I thought that was a really,
really interesting connection. Yeah.
38:35 TS: Really? Yeah. Small world isn’t it?
38:38 BK: It is
38:41 TS: So having been there as a camper for just a couple years, how did you get involved
in coming back as a junior counselor and then a full counselor?
38:52 BK: Um, I guess because we sort of stayed. Because of the fact that I had brothers and
sisters coming in, and also my mom coming up, and so it sort of kept some kind of loose contact
and um, I just, I knew that there were opportunities there. That they needed people at camp, so
yeah.
39:08 TS: What were your, um, I guess tell us, tell us about your responsibilities as counselor
of the camp.
39:14 BK: Um, as a counselor, oh wow. Um. Basically I believe I’d have a cabin with some
girls and um, it seems to me, well as junior counselor you didn’t have that responsibility, but as a
regular counselor, you’d have responsibility for a cabin of girls. And it seems to me the girls I
had were a little wild. Had a little bit of a problem keeping them under control. But yeah I was
responsible for them for being there, uh, making sure they got to the activities they were
supposed to and talking with them if the needed someone to talk with and things like that
39:53 TS: All right.
39:54 BK: Making sure they didn’t get lost and [laugh]
39:55 TS: [laugh] yeah. Playing capture the flag
39:59 BK: Yeah.
40:00 TS: So you were a camper when you were in like elementary school, junior high?
40:06 BK: Um, junior high yeah. Yeah.
40:08 TS: And then a counselor, a junior counselor in high school, and then a senior counselor
in college?
40:12 BK: Uh huh. Yeah. I think that was sophomore year in college. Yeah.
40:14 TS: All right.
40:15 BK: I came up
�40:16 TS: Did you enjoy being a counselor?
40:19 BK: um. I did. Um, it’s, it was challenging. Yeah. It was challenging. But, uh, I did.
Yeah. I actually before had been a counselor at this, at Peniel camp. I was a coun, not a
counselor but I ran up and um. Yeah, I was actually. I’m sorry. I’m mixing things up. Um, I had
gone up to a camp in Canada called Pioneer camp. Pioneer Girls’ Camp. And it was up in the
north woods of Canada. And I spent six weeks up there. So that I did after my freshman year I
think it was. And then I did this after my sophomore year.
40:52 TS: So this was like a walk in the park, right?
40:54 BK: [laugh] yeah. Pioneer Girls’ camp. That, that was really, um, really a bit more
rugged because we slept in tents the whole time. But they, they were huge tents. They were big
canvas tents on wooden platforms. Yeah. And we had, we were actually the camp was on a lake,
up in the north woods of Canada. It was beautiful. Um The mornings were chilly. Especially
when it got to August. Mid or late August it was pretty chilly. Um. Yeah. But that, that was a
really wonderful experience.
41:34 TS: That sounds good
41:35 BK: yeah.
41:36 TS: Different weather here. Um, what would be then, like if you had to pick one singular
camp memory from your time as a camper and a counselor, is there anything that stands out to
you ? Like this is a story I tell
41:46 BK: Oh my goodness. Uh. Wow. Hm. I can’t, you know I can’t think so much of
something distinctive when I was a camper other than just, you know, enjoying the environment
and um, hm. That, that’s a hard one. Yeah, I really, you know, I have different memories of
different things, but it’s hard to think of something that was distinctive.
42:20 TS: yeah. That’s understandable. Um, you talked about the Shack and the snacks
42:25 BK: [laugh] the candy shack
42:29 TS: Yeah. So, what sort of facilities were there then. So you had your cabins, and you
had the game area, and the dining hall. Was there, what, what was the layout of the buildings I
mean?
42:40 BK: Um, they were all on the side of the sand dunes. So you would come in on the road
that led off the Oval Beach road. Is that Ferry? It has a name, but I can’t remember
42:52 TS: I think it’s Ferry
42:56 BK: Ferry goes down the bottom of it. And it might be Perryman, I think that goes up the
hill. Yeah. Well at any rate, you get how, like half way up. It’s where that whole new
�development is now. Um, but you go beyond their main gate and there’s another road, sort of a
backroad. And that’s where you went in to Pineal Camp. That road. Um. And so you would
come up the road, and it would be at like a little bit of an incline. And then to, to your right
would be I think the chapel. Small building was the chapel. It was also game and craft room, so
first, in the early morning it would be a chapel, and then later on it would be a craft room or a
game room whatever. Pretty flexible. And on Sunday we always had a church service in there.
And then across from that was the shuffleboard and the game stuff, and then above that was the
dining hall. And then in between would be the director’s cabin, and then to the left of that, just
on the ravine was the candy shack. And then there was the cook’s cabin, which my mom stayed
in, and there was another staff cabin over there. And there was another, then you’d go up the hill
and there’d be some more cabins. Smaller cabins. And then as I said there was that one big cabin
up in the near the top of the hill. Which had, I think, two main rooms and probably four
bunkbeds in each of those rooms. Often the younger campers would stay in those. I don’t know
why they put them at the top, but whatever. So they’d have to pass everybody else when they
were on their way out or trying to escape [laugh]. Something like that. Um, yeah. So basically
you would come in off the road and then you would go up the hill, and then the cabins would be
like up a mountainside, but a dune side. Until you got to the top of the hill. And then that was
where the volley ball court was.
44:48 TS: All right. That’s excellent. Um
44:50 BK: And no showers by the way. If you wanted a shower you had to go down to the, one
of the staff cabins. And then underneath was a shower area.
45:00 TS: underneath the cabin? [laugh]
45:01 BK: [laugh] Yeah. I mean it was up, I mean it was raised up on you know
45:04 TS: yeah.
45:05 BK: Yeah. But I’m just saying like the first floor, the lower floor was the shower room.
Where’d you go take uh, if you wanted a shower.
45:13 TS: So you guys didn’t take your soap down to Lake Michigan and
45:15 BK: No, but that’s funny. When I was up at the camp that was up in Canada, and I know
that’s a whole another story, but, um, they would wash in the lake. Mmhm. Yeah.
45:22 TS: All right. I can see the whole thing in my head now
45:27 BK: [laugh]
45:28 TS: And how did your mom get involved?
45:32 BK: I guess just because of the fact that I, um, you know she had children, several
children going to the camp. I think, um I had a brother Steve who lived here. You may, may or
�may not know about him. He and his partner Jen, um own the Joes and Heath (?) Colonial Inn.
The B&B. Mm hm.
45:48 TS: Ok. Yeah.
45:52 BK: So, um, he, he came to camp. I’m sorry. I lost my train of thought. What I was
talking about
46:02 TS: Um, oh. Your mom and having
46:03 BK: Mom. Yes. So anyway, he says he came as a camper. I don’t remember. I guess I
was maybe in college by then and I didn’t, I don’t really know. Or maybe I was even married by
then. Um. At any rate, yeah he came as a camper, but he also came with my mom. I guess he
came with my mom first maybe, and then came as a camper. Um, and so, and also as I
mentioned Pineal was managed, directed whatever, out of this community center on the north
side of Chicago. And they had programs for um, children and mothers and families and
whatever. So my mother would go up there sometimes to, you know. Yeah.
46:47 TS: I, I can’t remember if you said the name of that community center
46:52 BK: Pineal
46:53 TS: Pineal. That makes sense right?
46:53 BK: Pineal Center it was called [laugh]. Yeah. Pineal Center, and they ran Pineal Camp.
47:00 TS: What, um, do you remember any of the menus your mom made? You mentioned
that she took a different approach to the food
47:05 BK: To the food. Yeah, yeah, well, that’s basically was her area of responsibility. So she
did what she could to try and make kid friendly
47:15 TS: Yeah. And I’m sure everyone appreciated that
47:17 BK: I think so
47:18 TS: Powdered milk is out
47:19 BK: Yeah. Yeah, you know. It was different days then. I mean today people, powdered
milk, what is that? Some people cook with it I guess still, but
47:29 TS: That’s true. And what, um, you may have said it already, what was your mother’s
name?
47:35 BK: Reeny. Mmhm.
�47:37 TS: Cool. Um, did all of your siblings pass through Camp Pineal?
47:42 BK: Um, I think so because Steven was the youngest, my, my brother. Who I just
mentioned?
47:46 TS: Yeah.
47:47 BK: And he’s the youngest of the family so yeah. I guess everyone did.
47:52 TS: All right. And how many siblings did you say you have?
47:54 BK: Uh, seven
47:56 TS: 7, that’s what I thought. Ok. Yeah. Lot of kids
47:58 BK: Yeah. It was, um, it was a wonderful thing for a family of a lot of children you
know, just to be able to, to do that. To go away so inexpensively and you know, have that kind of
experience
48:10 TS: Yeah. And summer must have been uh fun time for your parents with 7 kids out on
the loose right?
48:15 BK: [laugh] 8 actually
48:17 TS: 8. Yeah. 8 total. Yeah.
48:22 BK: Yeah. Yeah. But, uh, yeah. There was enough space between us that the older ones
took care of the younger ones.
48:27 TS: Oh that’s good
48:28 BK: yeah.
48:30 TS: I’ll bet. Yeah. Well, what um, are there any other details or images or memories or
48:37 BK: Oh goodness. Yeah, wow. I think I’ve. Let me think is there anything else. It’s
funny because I was talking with my sister I said I don’t remember a lot. And she said “Oh sure
you do.” And we started talking about it. But now it’s like, I think I told you everything I can
remember. Um. Yeah. The only other thing—oh! You asked about the boats that we went on
49:00 TS: Yeah.
49:01 BK: The paddle wheel. I forgot that one. We, we have been on it numerous times
because just because everybody that comes to visit us we take on that boat.
49:12 TS: All right
�49:13 BK: Yeah. So. Wyatt and I really enjoy it. The old star of Saugatuck. Yeah. It was there
when we were campers. I don’t remember if we ever went on it when we were campers. I think
probably not. But certainly saw it
49:25 TS: Yeah. Ok. yeah
49:27 BK: It’s been around a long time
49:29 TS: And you, you still enjoy taking it to this day then?
49:30 BK: Yeah. Yeah. It’s probably been a year or two since we’ve been on it, but yeah. A
couple years ago we had some cousins from Wisconsin come to, and we took them on it
49:40 TS: It’s a great tour
49:41 BK: mmhm. It is. It really is. We also like to go on the sunset tour. That, that. I think
that’s the best, provided there’s a sunset, but even so it’s nice to take an evening boat ride
49:52 TS: Yeah, on a nice summer day.
49:54 BK: uh huh. yeah
49:57 TS: I helped out with, uh, I worked on the boat a little bit last year.
49:59 BK: oh did you?
50:00 TS: And my girlfriend works on it this year. My mom actually works on it too, so I’ve,
you know, we’ve crossed paths in our various
50:08 BK: yeah. I guess so. yeah
50:10 TS: Associations around town. Yeah. All right Camp Pineal. I guess we can move toward
the, the uh. These questions here. I guess an obvious one is, um, that property’s been sold, you
know. What do you think about what’s happening now?
50:31 BK: uh, well, I would have done whatever I could have to try and save it. Um, a lot of
emails went back and forth among my siblings and the camp. And we just felt so bad it was
being sold, that other kids wouldn’t have the chance to experience what we did. Um, but
probably my sister and I, my sister Jennifer and I are the oldest, and we probably feel, felt the
most keenly. Um, my brothers were more philosophical, and said well, it had its time and now
it’s moved on to something else, yeah, um, but yeah. I, I, am really sorry that it went. I just think
it was such a fantastic opportunity for kids and families to just come and really enjoy the area
and enjoy the beauty of the lake, and you know, the woods and the dunes, and now, well what
could I say? Progress. Yeah. Some people call it progress. [laugh]
�51:32 TS: Yup, yup
51:34 BK: but to me, um I felt really sad about it
51:40 TS: Yeah. Yeah. Well then what, I suppose this is a hard question, but if you could sum
up what Camp Pineal and Camp Gray and your time there, what it meant for you, just in general
in your life, and your outlook and your perspective
51:55 BK: yeah. Uh. That’s a hard one, um, it had a very positive influence on me. Um. I think
in terms of my faith, I wouldn’t say that it was that strong then, but I think that it probably
planted seeds in me, and just um, I mean my family had, all my family had gone to church really,
but there was something about camp. There was a spirit there that, um, I don’t know. Just kind of
awakened a spiritual hunger in me. And, uh, yeah I’m just always thankful um, that I had that
opportunity. And it, it’s an interesting thing. Because I told you we live now in Douglas, and
how that came about I mean we had been from Chicago and certainly were familiar with this
area and had come up on vacation sometimes when our children were small. And then we moved
out to the east coast, and I don’t think we didn’t come back again until our older daughter was in
college
53:08 TS: Ok.
53:09 BK: Actually later than that. She went to law school at the University of Michigan. And
so we decided one summer when she was out there in Ann Arbor, um, to all meet up for
vacation. And we said “Why don’t we go to Saugatuck? We haven’t been there in years.” And so
we came, and so we did. And we rented a cabin on Lake Michigan, um, actually down in Glenn.
But we were right at the top of the dune where you could look down over the water. Incredible.
So beautiful
53:42 TS: Beautiful view
53:45 BK: Um, my daughter had been going through kind of a stressful time. You know, law
school’s not easy, but actually this was at the start of law school now that I think about it, but she
had been going through some stress and it was such an incredible, beautiful, relaxing time. And
so we kind of got reacquainted with the area again. And then we came up to Saugatuck and, I
don’t think it was that year. It was maybe a year later, and we were looking around, and our
daughters said “Why don’t, we like this place so much, why don’t we have a place here?” I said
“Well I don’t know if we could afford it. I don’t” and, but we had been talking about getting a
vacation home. And so we were looking around and, uh, and then we came back home and it
was, the Fall um, you know we hadn’t made any decision. We had looked at a number of
properties from Glen all the way up to Saugatuck. Um, and then this one condo we, we had
looked at came, was up for sale, and the realtor called us and said, uh, one, the one place that we
really liked. She said “Somebody else has put a bid on it.” But she said “there might be an
opening for you.” And we thought, oh, we really did, did want to be here. We really did want to
have a place. So we put a bid in, and the other people dropped out, and we got it. So here we are.
We’ve been here 11 years now
�55:09 TS: That’s great. Yeah.
55:11 BK: Yeah. So that, it was funny how, it was something like how from our past that had
really been a place that we enjoyed and had good family memories from, uh then serendipitously
you might say we reconnected with our daughter going to law school in Ann Arbor
55:30 TS: That’s pretty amazing
55:32 BK: Yeah
55:33 TS: And your brother’s here too, right
55:34 BK: Yeah. And then, yeah. What happened like three or four years ago, um, we always
have a big family party on Labor Day. We invited everybody to come up, anybody that wants to
on Labor Day, the weekend. And, um, he and his girlfriend Jen came up, and um, they stayed at
uh, they stayed in town at one of the, the other rental, and um, I don’t know. They’d been
thinking about it, talking about it a lot, but they found out a house was for sale. Actually it was
owned by a family which we knew. We knew for years. Um, and he called me and said, uh, “do
you have a contact number for them?” he said “I’d like to talk to them about, about their house.”
And that’s how that started. I guess about 3 or 4 years ago. Yeah. Yeah. So now my brother is
like really, really cemented in the community.
56:28 TS: His inn, yeah.
56:29 BK: Yeah. He really put his heart and soul into, into building that place
56:32 TS: It’s a cool looking place. Yeah, yeah.
56:34 BK: Or rebuilding it, yeah.
56:35 TS: So he’s here year around then, huh
56:38 BK: Yeah. Well, they just opened up, um, they had their first guests I think, uh, late
spring. Yeah
56:44 TS: Yeah
56:45 BK: Yeah.
56:46 TS: Excellent
56:48 BK: Spent about two years of rehabbing it. Restoring. Yeah.
56:50 TS: Yeah, that’s, that’s a big task.
56:54 BK: yeah. Incredible property, uh, so now he’s an anchor in town.
�57:00 TS: You know, it’s fascinating that your friends came up to this camp, then you came up
to the camp, and then your siblings and your mom, and then you guys came back later and you
guys
57:07 BK: Yeah, yeah. All hinged on my one friend Linda Cahill [laugh]
57:10 TS: [laugh] All credit to her, right? That’s really cool. Um, I thought another question but
I lost it. [pause] Well. We can plod at the ones on the list. What are some of your hopes for the
future, for yourself, for your family members, or your community?
57:31 BK: Mm. Oh my goodness.
57:34 TS: Narrow easy to answer questions here
57:35 BK: [laugh] yeah right? Uh, well you know there’s always a balance between, um,
keeping things the way they are and making progress and improving things. And so yeah, um,
from a selfish point of view you want to keep as much open space as possible. Um, but then you
realize that, um, in order to have the amenities that people want, changes have to happen. Things
have to be, uh, old things sometimes have to be torn down. New things built up. Um, so I guess
I’m hoping that as much open space can be preserved as possible. That, that, they’re, they won’t
get so crowded, um, that it won’t be as enjoyable as it is. Yeah. But then you know. Why
shouldn’t people enjoy it? So yeah, you know, it’s a selfish point of view just wanting to keep
things just as they are, um, or wanting others to enjoy it as well without getting to the point
where it’s too crowded, too busy. Um. One of the things that we love about here compared to the
east coast is event when, when it’s crowded it’s never like it is out there where you sit in traffic
jams on single lane roads for well hour, could be hours. It’s um, well, I love Cape Cod. But, we
have not been out there in years. Probably since we bought this place. Um. But, uh, you, you
have, it’s just as beautiful here as it is on Cape Cod to me. Um. With half the traffic. Half the
crowds. And a lot less expense. For us to have the same condo out there would be at least twice
the price or three times.
59:37 TS: Oh man. you did it right then
59:40 BK: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s um no it’s one of, like some people say one of the best kept
secrets. People from the east coast and the west coast too, they, they know the ocean. Which is
fantastic. But Lake Michigan is not a lake. As, you know, talking to people they say “Oh lakes
are nice.” It’s not a lake. It’s a great lake, it’s like an inland sea. And we have had friends come
to visit as say, standing on the beach say “You wouldn’t know this wasn’t the ocean.” They don’t
realize, you know you look out, as far as you can see on the horizon, it’s water. Except for the
fact of course the waves and the roughness of the ocean is different, and salt water, too, but um,
it’s every bit as beautiful. And, in some ways, nicer I think. Yeah.
1:00:33
understand
TS: That’s a good perspective. The ocean versus the lake. A lot of people don’t
�1:00:37
BK: Yeah, they don’t they, if they haven’t been to the Midwest they have no idea
what it, what a great lake is like
1:00:42
TS: No. yeah. Yeah. Seeing it on the map does not do it justice in person. That is
for sure. Um. Would you want your children to go into your line of work? We haven’t talked
about your line of work
1:00:54
BK: [laugh] Retired
1:00:59
TS: Would you like them to be retired?
1:01:02
BK: Actually, God willing, um, um, no, so do you want to talk about what I did?
1:01:08
there
TS: Yeah, we’ll talk about what was your line of work and then we can go from
1:01:13
BK: Um. Well, I worked a lot in media, in fact for the 20 years before I retired I
worked in the New York Times. And, um, I worked in research. And I really enjoyed what I did.
Yeah. In fact, one of the, um, big projects that I had, ongoing projects, was reader panel, where,
um we maintained the, um a panel of a couple of thousand readers would give us their opinions
on various things, and so I got involved in writing surveys and analyzing results and reports. And
it was interesting to me because it was never the same thing all the time. So that was a lot of
variety. Which I enjoyed. I get bored if I have to do the same thing all the time. As most people
do
1:02:04
TS: Yeah. Yeah.
1:02:05
Yeah.
BK: But, um, anyway I retired about ten years ago. So. Oh actually, nine years.
1:02:12
TS: Congratulations on that.
1:02:14
BK: [laugh] and then for a couple, and then for a few years, I actually have a
degree in counseling. Masters in counseling, so for a few years I worked at a women’s
community center. And that was, that was very enjoyable. Yeah. I liked that a lot. But right now
I’m, I’m just doing things with my family and traveling and enjoying Saugatuck.
1:02:38
TS: Good.
1:02:39
BK: In summer. Saugatuck Douglas I should say. Right
1:02:44
TS: Um, looking back on your career as research at the New York Times and as a
counselor, would that be something you would have wanted your children to go into?
1:02:54
BK: Oh, both my daughters are teachers. One is teaching at inner city school in
Philadelphia. Um, the other one is a PhD candidate, and she was teaching at college level, and
�this year she’s in a special program, um for graduate students, well for PhD students, um, at the
university of Pennsylvania. Uh. It’s a wonderful opportunity. She’s in history. So, if I had to do it
again, I think I might have become a teacher. And I’m glad that they’re teachers. Yeah. So.
1:03:33
TS: All right. I understand that. Yeah. I taught as well
1:03:38
BK: Yeah, I think it’s, uh, I did, at the community center I taught, um, work
readiness program. So I, um, worked with women. Inner city women, who were, uh, trying to get
back into the work force. And that was a wonderful experience.
1:03:54
TS: Very nice. Very cool. A useful profession. That is for sure.
1:03:58
BK: Mm. A challenging profession.
1:04:01
TS: Yes. Very challenging. Yeah. That’s not a job you get to leave at home.
1:04:05
BK: Yeah. Yeah.
1:04:10
TS: Um. What do you think are some of the greatest needs currently facing your
family and/ or your community?
1:04:16
BK: [pause] hm [pause]. Huh. Greatest needs. Huh. I don’t know. Well [pause]
hm. How to say this? Um. Saugatuck is a wonderful party town. If you like to party. There’s tons
of stuff to do, you know especially being in the outdoors. Um. I’m probably going to say, I think
the greatest need is spiritual. I think that sometimes I feel a little emptiness, a little shallowness,
like it’s uh, yeah. Um, it’s, it’s easy to, uh, especially when there’s a lot of money, it’s easy to
get caught up in just having fun, and I think there’s more to life than just having fun. [pause]
[laugh]
1:05:26
TS: That is true
1:05:26
BK: Is that kind of negative?
1:05:29
TS: No. It’s not
1:05:30
BK: Um. Yeah. So you know, I think it’s important to value people, um, I think
faith is important too. I believe this is not all there is. And there’s an emptiness if you think this
is all there is and this is all you live for. Just to have fun. So fun is great. I’m not against fun. Or
having a good time, enjoying, you know, whatever resources you’ve been blessed to have. Um,
but I also think you need to care about others. You need to care about um, people in need. Yeah.
1:06:08
TS: That’s not a negative approach at all. It’s not. I think that’s wonderful advice.
Um. Remembering that this interview will be saved for a long time, when someone listens to this
tape, 50 plus years from now, what would you most like them to know about your life and
community now in 2018.
�1:06:27
BK: Oh my goodness. About the community? Um. [pause] well I hope that it
becomes more and more of a welcoming place. Um. [pause] we, how should I say this? We’ve
often commented, my family has commented on the fact that you hardly ever see minorities in
town. Um, of course we don’t want to go back to where it was in the 60’s where riots and police
had to come in. You know. And you know. Everyone wants a nice place to come to. Yeah. But I
guess I would like to see more types of people just enjoying, being able to enjoy what’s here.
Um. As for myself [pause] what I would like people to remember about me? Well two things are
important to me: one is my love of God, and the other is my love of family. And I hope that um,
that I will have had had a positive impact on other people because of those things.
1:08:02
TS: Ok. Very good. Um segwaying onto that. Any advice for a young person who
may listen to this tape, perhaps 50 years in the future, or 5 years in the future.
1:08:14
BK: Oh, advice, uh, yeah. I would say that this life is not all there is, and don’t
live as if, don’t live just for yourself. Remember that God created for a purpose, and you need to
seek that purpose.
1:08:37
TS: Excellent. All right. Anything else that you would like to share that I may not
have asked you about? Anything you want to describe, get off your chest? Put down for
posterity? Any details we missed?
1:08:51
BK: I can’t think of anything else [pause] I don’t know. I, no doubt when I walk
away from here I’ll think oh I could have told him about this, or I could have told him about that,
or how come I forgot, but right now I think we’ve pretty well covered [laugh]. Yeah. It seems
like we have.
1:09:17
TS: Well right. Well. Thank you so much for your time and for sharing your
memories with me. This concludes the interview
1:09:27
BK: Right
1:09:27
TS: [laugh]
interview ends 1:09:29
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities.
Coverage
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1910s-2010s
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Various
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Subject
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Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Michigan, Lake
Allegan County (Mich.)
Beaches
Sand dunes
Outdoor recreation
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
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Saugatuck-Douglas History Center
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Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
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image/jpeg
application/pdf
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Text
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English
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2018
Oral History
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DC-07_SD-KiszonasB-20180721
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Kiszonas, Barbara
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2018-07-21
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Barbara Kizonas (Audio interview and transcript), 2018
Description
An account of the resource
Barbara Kiszonas grew up on the South side of Chicago but shares memories of spending summers in Saugatuck-Douglas as a camper and as a camp councilor.
Contributor
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Smith, Tyler (Interviewer)
Subject
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Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Allegan County (Mich.)
Outdoor recreation
Camping
Beaches
Oral history
Audio recordings
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Documenting the Histories of Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas, Kutsche Office of Local History
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
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eng
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0ddf34117183630198601de254db2183.mp3
a289f21bfa455dc1f89be5333f785cd4
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/92dddc6b5bd6489d989989cc151a9f99.pdf
995546d8fa3da6386ac14d963392493e
PDF Text
Text
Jean Hays Arnold- Interview by Eric Gollaneck
October 4, 2018
0:03
EG: This is Eric Gollaneck, and I’m here today with
0:07
JA: Jean Hays Arnold.
0:09 EG: At the old school house in Douglas, Michigan, on October the 4th, 2018. This oral
history is being collected as part of the Stories of Summer Project which is supported in part by a
grant provided by the National Endowment for the Humanities common heritage program.
Thanks, Jean for taking the time to meet with us today. I’m interested in learning more about
your family history and experiences of summer in the Saugatuck Douglas area. Can you say your
full name again and spell it for us?
0:40
JA: Ok. Jean Marie Hays Arnold. J-E-A-N M-A-R-I-E H-A-Y-S A-R-N-O-L-D.
0:52
EG: Fantastic. Thank you. Uh, and any special accents when spelling your name?
0:58
JA: No.
0:59 EG: Ok. Great. So, jumping right in. Tell us a little about growing up in Saugatuck
Douglas, and your experiences here.
1:09 JA: Ok. Wow. That leaves it wide open. All right. Um, I guess what I wanted to do also
is tell where I grew up. That’s my reference for my memories, which is my address at 177 St.
Peters Drive. And we moved there in about 1964. So that is where I spent my childhood and
1:35
EG: And this is in, this is in Saugatuck?
1:38
JA: Douglas actually
1:39
EG: Or in Douglas. Ok.
1:40 JA: Yeah, so, um, some of my earliest memories just in the general area are that, um, I
would like to play in the area what’s now West Shore Court, Hamilton, which connected to St.
Peter’s Drive, and there was a military tower at one time, that’s gone now, that I would climb up
to and look out, and it was very fun. It was like my own little personal fort. And um, had a lot of
fun there, and it happened to be right next to where the famous root beer barrel was.
2:20
EG: Right. Right
2:21 JA: But, at the time it was closed in the sixties already. When, when I knew of it, but I
had fun running around, and sneaking and peeking into the little
2:34
EG: [laugh]
�2:35
JA: There was a little, there was a little associated house to the barrel
2:38
EG: yeah
2:39 JA: And so I had fun there, and before all the warehouses and the boat storage was the
Hamilton, West Shore Court, um area, it was very open. I did a lot of kite flying in that area
believe it or not. You could not fly a kite there now. And, um, also the Parish family sticks in my
mind as having a house and a very distinctive tower, which I don’t know if that was the tower or
the military tower was behind the name of Tower Marine. Which is the marina
3:19
EG: Ok. Sure
3:20 JA: Down below the hill. And um, on the hill, just is where we would park or we would
sit and watch fireworks over Lake Kalamazoo.
3:33
EG: Right
3:34
JA: When I was a child, so that kind of covers that general area
3:40 EG: Right. Right, and just to back up, it was really interesting about the military tower.
We’ve done other interviews and uh, young, young people being up there has come up, and
during World War two, watching, and this is the same tower, and observation tower.
3:56
JA: Oh. Observation tower. Yes
3:59 EG: For plane spotting. For watching military aircraft. So how old would have been
when you were flying kites and climbing the tower and exploring this area.
4:07
JA: Oh this, this was, probably 8,9,10
4:14
EG: mmhm
4:14
JA: In that time period
4:15
EG: yeah.
4:17
JA: Young, but not real
4:18
EG: Independent
4:19
JA: Yeah exploring the area.
4:19
EG: out there, doing your own thing, exploring the
4:22 JA: Yeah. It was fun. Um, also in that area, um, in the mid 1960’s the Keewatin came
into the area. And I, I pretty much had the Keewatin pretty much as the backdrop of my
�childhood and where I lived, because we were on a bit of a bluff on St. Peter’s Drive, there. Um,
down below they had pulled the Keewatin up. So, um, that’s been, that’s always kind of been the
backdrop for me as I said. And when I became, was approaching thirty years old, I said, “Either
I’m going to be married, or I’m going to have one whale of a party.” So I thought, what better
place to have a birthday, uh, 30-year-old birthday party than the Keewatin?
5:20
EG: Yeah
5:20
JA: So, so, I did that
5:24
EG: [laugh]
5:25
JA: It was a party for 50. Prime rib dinner. Catered by, get this, the Terra restaurant.
5:32
EG: wow
5:32
area.
JA: Where I worked when I worked when I was 16, in the back, in the salad and dessert
5:38
EG: Right
5:38
JA: So I thought, oh, they must cater my event
5:42
EG: Right.
5:43
JA: I shall have my event right next to where I lived practically
5:48
EG: Right
5:48 JA: Um. We had a 6 pieced band in the ball room area. And the dinner, and it was all
videotaped at the time
5:58
EG: Yeah
5:59
JA: So that was a really grand event. I had a ball gown and the whole thing so.
6:05
EG: Right? You did this in style
6:07
JA: Yeah. So
6:07
EG: And this is your life moment with the Keewatin and Terra and
6:08
JA: [laugh] yeah. It was really perfect.
6:13
EG: All this history. Yeah.
�6:14 JA: So, little did I know 24 years later I would get married. But, at the time, I thought
I’m going to do this and do it right, so. I’ve actually had two receptions in my life, so that was
fun. Ok. I think that is kind of the area, um
6:32 EG: Let me, let me ask you a little bit. Do you remember when the Keewatin arrived? Is
that a memorable.
6:38 JA: That was 1964, 5, or 6. Very soon after we moved in. I think we moved in first and
then, and then the Keewatin came along
6:52 EG: What was the reactions to people, or your reaction to that then when this ship, you
know lake, lake steamer just arrives in town?
6:57 JA: Oh, I mean you can imagine. Yeah. Well, we, for sure, had to have a tour and had
more than 1, 2, 3, tours because it was a very special landmark, of course, for the Saugatuck,
Douglas area
7:13
EG: Yeah. Yeah.
7:14 JA: Huge and really kind of a loss. Kind of a piece of Saugatuck, Douglas missing now,
because it had been here for so long. I think just recently in the last, maybe five years
7:21
EG: Right. Yeah. A number of decades.
7:28
JA: It was, uh, removed
7:28
EG: I think it was, yeah. Within that time frame.
7:31
JA: Yeah. It’s been significant to the area and to me, for sure in particular
7:37
EG: Right. So changing, changing eras
7:41
JA: Yeah. Definitely
7:42
EG: yeah.
7:44 JA: So, um, otherwise, I would, I tried to think of some of my earliest memories of, and
trying to keep it focused on summer.
7:52 EG: Yeah. And we can, we can talk about other things as they come as well. So that’s
fine, but, uh
7:58
JA: ok, um,
7:59 EG: Did you have something else specific, or you could talk about school. Did you go to
the Douglas school?
�8:06 JA: Oh, Douglas Elementary School. Of course, yeah. Um, some of my classmates went
to St. Peter’s, to the Catholic school for a while, and then eventually we all joined up during the
elementary years because the St. Peter’s closed down. And it’s funny St. Peter’s Drive, we lived
on St. Peter’s drive. We lived right next to the school and the church, but I did go to the public
school. So, um, yeah. I don’t know so many memories having to do with Douglas Elementary
School. Um.
8:44
EG: Did you walk to school, or get rides, or bike, or?
8:49 JA: I remember the bus. I did take the bus, but good heavens. I could have taken the bike.
Uh, the biking was, very significant, I think for me and the Saugatuck Douglas area to um, get to
your destination. I never really needed transportation or a car later on because Saugatuck and
Douglas was really bike riding easy distance. So you’d bike ride wherever you needed to go.
Which was really fun. And then thing about biking from Douglas to Saugatuck, you cross the
bridge, there’s kind of swampy land on either side. And I had a bit of a traumatic experience
every time I went from Douglas to Saugatuck sometimes. I would be waving my arms above my
head like this as I’m speeding, speeding like the Wicked Witch of the West on the bike because
there are red winged black birds
9:48
EG: Ok yeah.
9:48 JA: That took up residence, uh particularly on the, what would I say? The west side. And
they would dive bomb my head.
9:56
EG: Sure
9:58 JA: Land on my head. So it was a bit traumatic, and I’m waving my hands above my
head wildly to try and to veer the blackbirds away, so that sticks in my head, of course, because
the, the blackbirds were terrorizing me, so a bit of a downside to biking. But still
10:16 EG: Right, er, passers. I’ve not heard that story, but that’s a great description of passing
the bridge
10:20 JA: [laugh] yeah. So.
10:23 EG: Did, primarily bike in the summer I guess then
10:29 JA: Oh yeah. Absolutely. Biked. Yeah. That’s the way to get around, and it gives you
independence as a kid to
10:38 EG: For sure.
10:39 JA: That was fun. Parents provided me with a five speed. I don’t know if they even have
five speeds anymore, but that was big at the time
�10:50 EG: Definitely. That’s good for these hills, good for the, good for some of these hills
getting around as well.
10:50 JA: Yeah. Around late 60’s [laugh] yeah
10:54 EG: If you go down to the beach, then you can make it there and back. Yeah
10:59 JA: Uh, one other thing, backing up to the Keewatin, I remembered was at one point,
probably pretty early, probably late 60’s they had, they used the life boats off the Keewatin in
life boat races. And my mom was on a crew of one of the life boats, and I believe you even tried
to, or it was requested if you could try to dress in period type costume if I’m not mistaken. I’m
not sure about that.
11:32 EG: I think, I think we have photos that are mentioning it
11:36 JA: Do you? Yes!
11:37 EG: Because I’ve seen those boats, and I’ve wondered what are, what are those? What’s
going on?
11:41 JA: Yeah.
11:42 EG: That must what those are, yeah.
11:44 JA: I wonder if it, if it was for a significant Saugatuck event maybe. I’m not, I’m not sure
if it was
11:50 EG: Yeah. The centennial
11:52 JA: Centennial, or something like that. So, uh, yeah. My mom was in that along with
Carol Frikengust (?) and Frey Whiteman (?), that I remembered. So. Ok. I’m just kind of looking
here to see, um, real young memories, I guess anytime in the summer, um, I took swimming
lessons when I was maybe 5 or 6 so at Goshorn Lake. Pottawattamie Beach. In that area. So.
Um, I don’t know if they do that anymore, but I remember jumping off a dock, and it was sink or
swim basically.
12:40 EG: [laugh]
12:44 JA: Um, after you had your little, you know, floating on the shoreline and head in the
water and all that, so, uh, but Goshorn Lake and Pottawattamie Beach and course near to that the
Dune Scooner (?) rides, taking a Dune Scooner (?) ride. Now those have been around huh, my
whole life probably
13:04 EG: A long time, for sure. Yeah.
13:05 JA: [laugh] yeah. So all in that area is a big memory to me.
�13:10 EG: Was that something that you did on a regular, like did you do it once a summer basis
or if people came to visit or with friends or tell me a little bit about that experience as you
remember it.
13:20 JA: Yeah. I think, oh. I, I, was really young at the time, but it really made an impression
on me. And, um, the whole mystery surrounding the Singapore. Um, yeah, and a few things
about that area. And just going through the dunes at fast speed and sand, so it was really exciting
and really fun. I don’t know if we did it so much, but I remember it being pretty significant in my
little child
13:50 EG: Yeah
13:50 JA: mind, so
13:53 EG: Yeah. It’s such a strange experience that’s right there.
13:56 JA: yeah
13:57 EG: I mean you wouldn’t know driving through the area that that there’s this lunar
landscape almost. This other worldly place
14:03 JA: Yeah. So really interesting. So. That is a little bit of, oh and also I remember, when I
was very little, like that age too, my dad took me to Funk’s News Stand, on Butler to get a
newspaper and get me a little stretch candy necklace. And so that was a big treat.
14:30 EG: Yeah
14:31 JA: And, um, Funk’s News Stand is no longer there. I recently run into the son of Roscoe
Funk, and I forget the wife’s name. Paula. I’m not sure.
14:43 EG: And that was a regular stop.
14:44 JA: Yeah
14:48 EG: What newspaper? The Holland Sentinel? Or Grand Rapids or
14:52 JA: Yeah. Or even the Commercial Record, um possibly too, but I think it would be, my
dad would read The Sentinel, the Holland Sentinel, or Grand Rapids Press for sure. So, that was
a regular visit.
15:05 EG: You drove over there? From home?
15:08 JA: Yeah. Yup, yeah. So yeah
�15:12 EG: How did you, what was the, one thing that is interesting in our interviews is people,
the kind of separation, or distinct identities between Douglas and Saugatuck.
15:25 JA: Oh yeah
15:26 EG: Which is true somewhat today, but describe a little bit about that. How often did you
go to Saugatuck, uh, what was that? How did you see the differences between those two places
15:38 JA: Yeah. It’s funny, in my organization of thoughts I started putting Saugatuck Douglas
Douglas Saugatuck on, on, um topics that were in my mind. So that’s interesting. I should say
that, um. And, and thinking about classmates, the classmates that lived in Saugatuck vs the
classmates that lived in Douglas, and, um, yeah. That’s kind of a neat thing. Saugatuck was more
flashy and, you know, Douglas was a little bit more subdued and, you know reserved like and,
not fancy. But you know, Saugatuck was the big place where everything happened. And that’s,
that’s what I kind of remember a little bit. We’d go to Saugatuck. It felt almost like I lived in
Douglas, but Saugatuck and Douglas were all one as well. We just went to Saugatuck like it was
our downtown
16:40 EG: Yeah. Was that on a, would you say on a daily basis. On a couple times a week, or
weekly basis.
16:47 JA: Oh, all the time
16:48 EG: Yeah
16:49 JA: Yeah
16:49 EG: Yeah
16:50 JA: It was just like where we lived
16:52 EG: Yeah.
16:52 JA: So yeah. It was pretty neat. Um, I, I have. Let’s see. Some things. Oh. Another
young memory was, of course, boating is so huge in the area, with, uh Kalamazoo Lake, and my
dad had a small boat. It was a motor boat which could be converted if you put the rudder in and
put the mast up and the sail, it could be a sail boat. And we had our little orange life jackets, you
know, they were all little orange life jackets back then. And, um, my mom, my dad, myself, and
my brother. We’d have our little outing around the lake. So that was a special memory too, and
on that side, also Mt. Baldhead of course is big in any Saugatuck and Douglas mind. Uh, going
up the stairs. Running down the other side. Walking back to the area. And we’ve had more than
one family picnic there, with roasting hot dogs and um having a little picnic by the water at the
bottom of Mt. Baldhead’s stairs. So
18:05 EG: yeah.
�18:06 JA: That was fun too. Yeah,
18:12 EG: Ok
18:13 JA: I, leading up to jobs that I had in the summer, because once I hit maybe 13, 14, 15,
16, um, jobs came about. Oh, I’m seeing that you had an elementary school thing. Douglas
Elementary was very close to a little place called the Tasty Freeze. And that was a big
destination of course. And that’s where I found I loved, uh, dipped top cones. Oh baby. That
was, that was a treat. So I don’t want to forget Tasty Freeze.
18:50 EG: That’s great. Did you have a favorite? Did you have a favorite combination that
18:56 JA: Well, I always got the dipped top cone. I thought that was amazing how you could
have milk chocolate
18:58 EG: Milk chocolate
18:59 JA: On your vanilla ice cream
19:02 EG: Yeah.
19:04 JA: That was fun, um, ok. Let me see what else here. I have memories, think. Uh, oh, I
was baptized in the United Methodist Church on Mason and Griffith. So that is a little. It’s still
there. So. I know about that. Um
19:27 EG: What, was church a regular, regular routine regular part of life?
19:30 JA: Oh my gosh. Yes. And we had to have gloves and a little purse, and possibly a hat,
and little shoes, little Mary-Jane, patent leather probably. Oh. The biggest thing. This is not
summer, but in winter time, I had a muff. You know the muff? Where you have a furry little
tunnel where you can warm your hands. That, that was for Sunday, so, yeah. It was, that was
when I was very young 5, 6. That kind of thing. So.
20:06 EG: And regularly went to church. Whole family?
20:08 JA: Yeah. Pretty much. Yeah. We started in the Saugatuck United Methodist Church.
Moved eventually to (?) but up until I was 12, which would have been early 70’s, it was church
every Sunday
20:23 EG: Yeah
20:24 JA: That’s how it was
20:24 EG: Yeah.
�20:25 JA: Not anymore. So then after that it was not so much, so. Um, yeah. Let’s see. I guess I
will go into jobs. Oh wait. There used to be a tennis court in Douglas. I’m kind of jumping all
over
20:50 EG: You talked about that today
20:53 JA: yeah
20:53 EG: That’s all right. There’s no, uh, formula for this. There was the conversation we had
this morning with another person about the tennis courts that were
20:54 JA: Um, oh did you? Yeah. My sister and I were there. Now there’s just a play park
where it used to be I think, but my sister and I would go there and just lob, volley, whatever you
call it, back and forth and that was a fun thing to do in the summer too, is the tennis court.
21:17 EG: Yeah. Tell us a little bit about for the folks listening to this down the line about your
family, so your mom, you mentioned your mom and dad, your sister
21:27 JA: Yup
21:27 EG: Kind of say a little bit about that
21:29 JA: Ok. Uh, I’m the oldest, um, 3 years later was my brother, Dave, and then ten years
later, or seven after my brother was my sister, Laura. And my brother was, um, mentally
handicapped you could say or developmentally challenged, or however you want to word it. So
that was a big impact on our family. My sister, she also went to Douglas Elementary and
Saugatuck High School, and she graduated ten years after I did in 1989, so, yeah. So that’s kind
of the makeup of our family, and a lot of the focus on my brother, which impacted the family
quite a bit too. And he like to escape, run, drive his little car, or walking on foot, and I remember
people in the area guiding him back home again, so. Um, that was kind of what was happening
with us at the time
22:42 EG: yeah. But it, it sounds like a supportive community. Through all that
22:28 JA: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah
22:51 EG: That kind of village culture.
22:52 JA: Yeah. Yeah. Pretty much. I mean, we didn’t have a lot of neighbors at the time, but
yeah, there were some helpful ones there so yeah. So, ok. I think maybe I will just touch on some
jobs I had. My first job, very significant landmark in the area, I worked at Anchor Park. Have
you heard of Anchor Park and the Island Queen?
23:28 EG: Yes.
23:30 JA: I was, that was that was the first of the paddle wheel, paddle wheel boats of the area.
�Um, owned by Dick Hoffman, Dick and Debbie Hoffman and their kids, Tom, Annie, who was
in my class, and Kate. And I was a crew. I think I was the one person crew for the island queen
for pushing off and docking, so that was a big thing, going out into the lake
24:06 EG: Yeah. So you were on the boat.
24:08 JA: Yeah the whole time. I, I would even steer a little, bit so that was fun
24:10 EG: Yeah.
24:12 JA: I thought the world of Dick Hoffman.
24:13 EG: And you were about 14? You said.
24:15 JA: 13 and 14 I did it two years. The second year I had a little lemonade stand on the top
deck. So that was fun [laugh]
24:24 EG: [laugh]
24:25 JA: And I remember, um, there were charter trips where big groups would rent the boat,
and we’d go out to the basin, the area just before the lake, and go out into the channel. And they
would get off the boat and have their parties or whatever, and Mr. Hoffman and I, there were
mosquitoes galore. This was summer time
24:49 EG: yeah
24:50 JA: Beach water.
24:50 EG: It’s a marsh
24:51 JA: We’d hide under his military olive green wool blankets to keep from the mosquitoes.
While everyone else was having a high old time we were trying to take a nap until they would all
come back. So that sticks in
25:05 EG: Oh my goodness
25:07 JA: My mind, um, also with anchor park, they had not only the Island Queen, but they
had mini golf. They had paddle boat rentals. Canoe rentals. I don’t know that they even had
kayaks at the time. That’s probably a newer thing from the sixties
25:21 EG: Yeah. Probably
25:22 JA: Early seventies. They had darts and, um, Debby Hoffman, she was a wild one, and
there was a boat, a large yacht that had a mermaid on the bow, that, they, you know the owners
of this boat, they didn’t care. The mermaid was wide open in all her chest full glory and Debbie
Hoffman didn’t really think that that was appropriate. And she got an idea that we were going to
�take a bucket of red paint, a paint brush, myself and her daughter Kate, in the night with a flash
light. We paddled all out to the mermaid on the front of this yacht and painted a bra on the
mermaid. [laugh] So the mermaid was now acceptable, and we paddled back and Kate still
remembers that. And that was oh, we were very stealthy, and we thought “Oh my gosh, is
anybody going to catch us?” But you know nobody caught us. We got away with it, and the
mermaid had a bra, so all was well with the world
26:40 EG: Was there, that’s an amazing story. Was there, was there any reaction to that? Did
you wake up, this was in the night time? Was there, was there moon light so you could navigate
across the water?
26:51 JA: Well we brought a flashlight. It wasn’t too far away from the park so we just paddled
in the night and did our thing and that’s a memory
27:01 EG: Right. No reaction, no reaction. At the dis, at the discovery of this
27:02 JA: No, not, no. No. Unfortunately, it would have been good because I would have
known we did that, so.
27:09 EG: yeah. Yeah.
27:11 JA: But it was fun. Um, so yeah. That was one of my jobs. That was my first job. And,
uh, learning about
27:20 EG: How, how did you get that job? Was that just through, through your friend?
27:23 JA: Oh, no. I got that job, my mom and dad played volleyball at Saugatuck High School.
I believe it was with Dick and/or Debbie Hoffman. And they must have gotten the word out that
they had a need for the Island Queen and I remember my mom coming home and saying “Jean,
how would you like a little job? I’ve heard that they could use somebody to help with the Island
Queen.” And voila
27:55 EG: Yeah. That was it. That’s how it happened.
27:56 JA: That was it. And that really taught me a love for water, for boats, um, to this day I
love it, so, um, you know, what you’re close to in your childhood. Just goes to show you what a
long lasting impact it has. So, the area, the water, the boats. So yeah. It’s part of me. Yeah. So,
um a little bit about Douglas, speaking of fun little stories, Douglas Beach, we went to Douglas
Beach more than we went to the Oval Beach. Um, living in Douglas in particular, and just
because it’s a little quieter, little more serene and, um, my dad chose Douglas Beach. And if you
go to Douglas Beach there is usually a big rock. Huge rock. Either on the shore or in the water a
little bit depending on the year and, um, the circumstances. But my dad proposed marriage to my
mom on that rock.
29:10 EG: [laugh]
�29:11 JA: So that is very significant too. So I always look at that rock and think about that. And
later down the road I, I had my little swimming suit on and my mom, I think, took a little photo
shoot, and I was on the proposal rock, um, getting pictures that I was there too, and so, that’s fun.
Something like that, that will always stand there. Go to the Douglas Beach, see the rock and
remember that
29:40 EG: Right. Right. Proposal Rock
29:42 JA: Yeah. Yeah.
29:43 EG: That’s a good name for that, that spot
29:44 JA: I don’t know anyone else that did that but, um,
29:48 EG: Yeah. They should.
29:50 JA: Yeah.
29:50 EG: Great idea.
29:51 JA: Um, we didn’t go to the beach in Saugatuck, but when we did, I loved to, or it was
kind of a tradition to walk out to the pier and back from Oval Beach. That was a big thing, um,
and I don’t know if it’s still, um, that way, but when I was younger, childhood time, I didn’t want
to look to my right because there may be nude gentlemen in the dunes that don’t care whether
someone sees them or not. So I remember not wanting to look to my right as I was going north
along the shoreline
30: 35 EG: Right. Yeah.
30:36 JA: To the pier. That was, that was a little significant memory. Because that was already
the gay population kind of staking their claim at the time to that area and doing what they wanted
to do.
30:48 EG: Do- do finding out about that? I mean do you remember being warned about that?
Or was it kind of self-evident when you went out there?
30:56 JA: Yeah
30:56 EG: Were there signs and things and tents and things, right?
30:59 JA: Oh there were bodies
31:02 EG: Yeah. You couldn’t miss it is what you’re saying?
31:02 JA: [laugh]
�31:04 EG: [laugh]
31:08 JA: So then that’s uh, a little memory that stands out
31:10 EG: What was, what was some of the reactions to that among your, among your friends
or family or neighbors? Or what was your recollection of that?
31:18 JA: Yeah. It, it was kind of well known. It was just kind of a given, but I felt a little
embarrassed.
31:25 EG: It wasn’t hostility toward them from other people necessarily
31:30 JA: I guess there might have been some, but I think as a rule we here in Saugatuck and
Douglas—yeah!
31:34 EG: Said live and let live. Yeah
31:38 JA: Why not? That’s one of the great things about this area
31:40 EG: just avert your avert your eyes.
31:41 JA: Yeah! Right! If you don’t like it don’t look
31:41 EG: If you don’t like—there—there’s other beaches you can go to. Yeah.
31:47 JA: [laugh] but or just carry on with your own business. And they’re free to do what they
want to do was kind of the attitude
31:52 EG: Yeah.
31:53 JA: Yeah. It’s good. I like it. I did, as matter of fact, work at the beach house on a
summer. Speaking of going into jobs
32:04 EG: Ok. Yeah.
32:05 JA: So, um, in the concession stand with the hotdogs and the hamburgers and the chips.
32:10 EG: Right.
32:10 JA: and pop and, um, did that, um, I happen to remember that, um, nothing
32:15 EG: Was, was that a fun job?
32:18 JA: It was a fun job. Of course. I mean, you see everybody and all the beach goers, and
that’s a lot of fun
�32:27 EG: Yeah. What were your hours like when you worked out there? Was it part of the
day? The whole day? Sun up to sundown? Late at or
32:34 JA: Oh, um, yeah, it wasn’t extensive hours. It seems like maybe it was 11-4 or
something like that
32:43 EG: Mmhm. Kind of a lunch. Kind of a lunch
32:44 JA: Yeah.
32:45 EG: Crowd. Afternoon snack.
32:46 JA: yeah. So that was kind of fun. And that was the beach house before the current one.
Now we have the nice modern one. This was the old, maybe there are pictures of the old beach
house out there so, yeah. The beach house. That was
33:05 EG: What did you —how many people worked there with you?
33:08 JA: Um, a couple I think. Don Treckingust (?) I remember worked, um, he was just a
class below me. We worked together and, another one. So someone as at the front and someone
was doing the burgers and it was a lot of fun.
33:25 EG: How, how old were you at that point?
33:27 JA: Oh, I think I was around 16, 15, 16, in there. Maybe 15. So, just a teenager
33:35 EG: Yeah. That sounds like a great teenaged job
33:38 JA: [laugh] I know! There were great jobs!
33:42 EG: Good nostalgia for them
33:43 JA: One that was not so great, or a couple of jobs actually. One job, uh, Timberline
Motel, which I think is now the Starlight or something crazy like that. But Timberline Motel was
owned by, um, parents of a classmate of mine. Debbie Clem. Her parents. And I thought I was
going to be a maid at the Timberline Motel with my girlfriend and her family. Well, I found out
very quickly I don’t want to clean bathrooms and make beds during a summer. That is not my
idea of fun. So we crossed that off,
34: 24 EG: [laugh]
34:24 JA: And I think that might have been a week. My duration of maid at Timberline Motel.
[laugh] Also, uh, waitress, when I was about 16 at a place called the Cousin’s Kitchen. Oh my
word. I’m not cut out for top organization and you need pancakes, and you need a muffin, and
you need butter over there, and syrup over there. This was probably a six table restaurant, and it
just blew my 16-year-old mind.
�34:55 EG: Yeah.
34:56 JA: This Cousin’s Kitchen, I think was in the, um, Peder Gallery. In the southern most
section of the Peder Gallery they had a little breakfast lunch place. I should have been able to
handle it but I, j, oh. It’s painful to this day, and I, I have had nightmares of waitressing the
Cousin’s Kitchen restaurant
35:23 EG: Sounds like a humbling experience [laugh]
35:26 JA Yes. No waitressing, but that was another job trial. Um, of a teenager in the
Saugatuck Douglas area. Um, got that, then when I was older, moved out after graduating. I
worked at a little shop called Brigadoon. This was probably 1979, 80. And it was at the height of
preppy-dom. And we specialized in monogramed sweaters. And I think they might even be
coming back now decades later. So yeah. Polo Shirts. You know, um, whales on your pants, um,
patchwork, madris (?), and all that. And we had customers interestingly enough that we would
send products out to Chicago, to St. Louis, to Kansas City, um, just shows you how far reaching
the visitors were that came to Saugatuck, shopped, and wanted things sent out to, back to their
homes. So, that was interesting. Um, also, I worked at Carl Gables as a coat check girl for the old
Crowe during the height of Disco time. So I thought I was born a little too late. I should have
been born a few years earlier because there were all the Disco dresses and Disco suits going
through, and I was missing it. I was a coat check girl, being 18.
37:10 EG: yeah
37:10 JA: I don’t, I couldn’t, I don’t believe I could get into the bar. But I could check coats
37:16 EG: Right
37:17 JA: So yeah. That was another little stint of mine. Coral Gables.
37:23 EG: Yeah. Now was this, was this a summer job? Was this, yeah.
37:26 JA: Oh, summer job, and July?
37:30 EG: Yeah
37:30 JA: Packed. Woo. Coral Gables was the kind of center of everything. Boats
37:37 EG: Even in, even in the late 70’s? I should say even, but in this moment we’re talking
the late 1970’s or early 1980’s. Yeah
37:45 JA: Mm. Oh yeah.
37:47 EG: This was a dis- And Disco
�37:48 JA: Yeah
37:49 EG: Disco. Disco came
37:50 JA: [laugh] can you believe it?
37:51 EG: In, in Saugatuck
37:52 JA: I know
37:53 EG: Yeah
37:54 JA: Hard to believe. It was really fun
37:55 EG: Well, do you have any particular customers or people, or types of people you saw
coming and going in, in those places?
38:04 JA: Oh, well, of course. The few that were especially inebriated, but I don’t know any
names. There weren’t any celebrities
38:11 EG: Oh, you don’t have to name names
38:14 JA: [laugh]
38:14 EG: just, I’m just thinking what, what people wore or or,
38:17 JA: Oh yeah
38:18 EG: Or kind of just the dynamics. The vibe
38:21 JA: Oh. Well, I mean, there were long lines to get in, and it was just, fun. People
watching and seeing what they wear and the music blaring. And you know, visitors all over, and
boats and people coming off their boats, and oh my gosh, it was just, it was the place. You know.
El Forno (?) if you wanted fine dining, Old Crowe downstairs, the Rats kellar (?). So, um, it was
fun to work there.
38:54 EG: It was kind of resort. Studio 54
38:56 JA: [laugh]
38:56 EG: On the Kalamazoo River
38:58 JA: Exactly. Yes. It was a lot of fun. Loved it, so, um, yeah
39:04 EG: Did you just work there the one summer?
�39:06 JA: The one, the one summer
39:08 EG: Yeah.
39:08 JA: Yep. Yup. Um. Oh, another fun thing that people do at that time, in the summer, is
play golf. At the time, at one time we had 3 golf courses. We had the Myro (?) which went with a
motel, which had a huge, larger than life, very memorable, horse on its back two legs. Reared up.
A white horse. I’ll never forget it. That was quite a landmark.
39:35 EG: This was at, this was the Myro Hotel?
39:37 JA: Myro Motel. Yeah
39:40 EG: OK
39:41 JA: At the intersection of the Blue star high way and the 130th or Wiley Road. And there
is, there is still. I think it’s the Dunes Inn.
39:50 EG: Ok. So that same area
39:51 JA: Yeah. Same area. So there was an associated small golf course there, and of course
the west shore, I believe it’s the West Shore golf course. Uh, with the Wick’s family ran that.
And now that’s done and houses are going up and uh, and of course Clear Brook. So. Golfing,
golfing is a big thing, and with friends
40:16 EG: Did you, did you spend time golfing then
40:20 JA: I did, but this was kind later on, but a fun summer activity that people gravitated
back to Saugatuck for, even when I moved from the area to the Holland area um, I’d come back
with my friends to the Saugatuck and Douglas area to hit the golf courses. So that was another
draw to the area. Which was fun. Oh, and another big draw to the area which I’m sad to see go is
Red Barn theater. Did anyone talk about Red Barn Theater?
40:48 EG: A fair amount. Yeah. Yeah, but tell us, tell us some of your experiences there.
40:49 JA: Yeah. That was, that was special. Yeah, in the summer time, uh, seeing a production
there was, was, great, and we had big names coming from Chicago, and maybe New York even,
uh, as guests.
41:04 EG: Yeah
41:05 JA: And seeing the production. And it was like our own Broadway, right here in
Saugatuck Douglas and
41:13 EG: Such a unique setting I understand as well. Describe it, a little bit of that. Of the
experience of going to the theater itself
�41:18 JA: Oh.
41:19 EG: What the theater was like
41:20 JA: Yeah. I mean it wasn’t fancy. Just a barn. But, um, you know, you go in and they
have little tables set up. They’d usually have little drinks, little snacks available, and um, oh, so,
you’d go in and, um, it’s rather rinky dink. Right, but it’s magical because there it is. It’s a stage
and production, and I wonder if I saw Harvey there. I think I may have seen Harvey, as one, but I
have seen probably a handful of productions over my lifetime and that was always very special,
and I’m sorry to see it go. Like, oh, darn. But a really good memory. Um, so, um, but going back
to Saugatuck, um, the women’s club in Saugatuck was, I like, I like dancing. Hence I was by the
Coral Gable’s Old Crowe. I liked dancing. And in the women’s club, the summer of 79 probably
or 80, George and Joanne Gallis (?) who were famous for their dancing, held dance lessons in the
women’s club in Saugatuck, and I, that’s where I first, uh, got exposed to ballroom dancing. And
loved it. Loved them. I think Nicky, their daughter, is still in the area, and um, dancing’s always
kind of been a thing with me and my name is also kind of known as Jean, Jean, the dancing
machine. So that was part of it [laugh]
43:11 EG: [laugh]
43:11 JA: My teen years I loved to dance at the high school and then ballroom dance. And the
dancing at the Coral Gables well, bi-curiously
43:23 EG: Right. You really did. I can understand the context for your comment about the
disco
43:23 JA: yeah... [laugh] yeah. It was like oh
43:32 EG: That, and that moment passed as well
43:34 JA: yeah
43:34 EG: Disco didn’t live, didn’t last long enough
43:38 JA: yeah
43:39 EG: It sounds like.
43:40 JA: Exactly.
43:41 EG: yeah
43:42 JA: Um, also in Saugatuck I remember Lloyd J. Harris Pine company. My dad, every
Christmas, ordered mince pies, which are kind of an unusual pie. Not your standard. And, uh,
always Lloyd J. Harris and of course, now that’s the location for the Center of the Arts. So, um,
�memories about that and having a manufacturing plant right in Saugatuck was kind of like whoa.
Wow. So.
44:14 EG: Did you have any family or friends that worked there?
44:18 JA: Uh, no. Not, not anyone I knew. It seemed like it was more, almost, I’m not sure if
this is right, but my impression of it was that it was more of uh, almost like a migrant or
Hispanic, you know Mexican, kind of population that worked there. Maybe from Fennville area
or something like that. It seemed to me. It didn’t seem to me like very many locals worked there.
44:48 EG: Like friends from high school or recent graduates. Not those people at all
44:52 JA: mm mm. Nobody I really knew or knew of worked there. And so my impression of it
was that people outside of Saugatuck Douglas worked there. So that was interesting. Um. Yeah.
Um, oh, another thing I don’t know if anyone else has mentioned, but there used to be a teen
center that was open in the summer time where the Douglas Library is right now.
45:24 EG: So at the center across the street you mean? Or the
45:28 JA: yeah
45:29 EG: Yeah? Ok.
45:30 JA: Yea. So. Um, we had basketball in there. And just games and, um, Margaret
Longshore was the one that kind of spearheaded that. And I always remember that, and I still see
her at, uh gatherings of friends.
45:45 EG: Yeah. No kidding. What were, what were some of the other things you enjoyed
doing there? Specifically. Hanging out with friends. Meeting with people
45:54 JA: Just kind of hanging out. Yeah. It was a place to call our own. And for teens that’s
that’s kind of a big thing
46:00 EG: Did they have music there? Or TV?
46:02 JA: Oh music. There was dancing. We have a theme here
46:03 EG: Yeah. Ok. There we go [laugh]
46:07 JA: [laugh] So it was funny. It was called The PITS. And that was an acronym. P-I-T-S.
And I cannot for the life of me remember what that stood for, but I’m going to have to ask
Margaret when I see her next
46:23 EG: Yeah. Was that open year round? Or mostly summer?
46:27 JA: No. It was more of a summery thing
�46:30 EG: Yeah. Ok.
46:30 JA: So, and it was like a big gymnasium inside before they turned it into a library so. It
was, it was fun for the kids to hang out. Friends and so, yeah. Ok. Wow. Believe it or not my
gosh, we’re, I think I’m out of time. I
46:52 EG: You must, you had some great material here
46:54 JA: I’m out. yeah.
46:54 EG: For sure.
46:57 JA: Believe it or not I think I hit on, on most of it
46:58 EG: Some uh, some great memories there. Few, a few things kind of tying that together
or coming out of that, some of the things you said, so you had these jobs. You worked at the
beach. You worked at the Coral Gables. On the Island Queen. What was it like growing up here
as someone who lived their whole life in Douglas, and then this kind of influx of people from
other places. What was that, what was the experience like?
47:25 JA: Oh. Yeah. It, it kind of felt like an invasion in the summer time actually. And, you
know the store, which was Taft’s at the time would be bombarded. And grocery items would
disappear because we have an influx of, of purchasing going on and, oh, there’s no parking
which also led the benefits of biking, and um, just a big onset of hustle and bustle uh, in the
summer time. Which has its fun aspects. The bustle and the people and the fun, but also it took
away from, our being local and living there, took away our peace and our calmness of living in
this relatively small village at the time. Um, locale, so it wasn’t always a welcome feeling. It was
“Oh, here they come from Chicago, and Missouri, and Indiana, and Ohio,” and you at Douglas
Beach, uh cars parked and um, people in for the summer, and you just look at all the license
plates and see where everyone’s from. You know, all over. But primarily Indiana, Illinois, Ohio.
Rounding Wisconsin. That kind of thing
48:57 EG: Did, did you have friends? Or did your friends living here have friends, family that
they knew came back on a regular basis? Did you develop friends over, you know, that came
seasonally? Or not so much?
49:08 JA: Oh. Um, gosh. I, what comes to mind is Brigadoon. And I don’t, I think I was only
there one year, but there were familiar faces who were visitors, um, and we catered to them and
knew them by name. Um, and they were not local. A lot of non-locals that, because I worked in
local business, I was friends with them of course. And they were regulars and got to know them a
little bit. Yeah.
49:46 EG: So yeah. So it was part of the excitement, but also brought its own baggage
49:51 JA: Yeah, pluses and minuses really but, like with anything.
�49:57 EG: Do you have any sense of change over your childhood? This is kind of maybe a
difficult thing to understand, because you’re developing see the world differently, but any sense
of change in the community around that? Over the time period
50:10 JA: Oh my gosh.
50:11 EG: As you were growing up?
50:12 JA: Yes. What was sad to see was the unstoppable development going on in the past few
decades as I’ve been away to, and just as I was leaving. Condos, condos, condos, condos,
development and really taking away our quaint, small town, um, feel. With all these condos, that,
to me in my mind, came to outsiders. Not really to locals as much and, so of course that was
disheartening, and of course the struggle over the Dennison property and the Dunes and the
Padnos, I, in-interest in that land and the development. As locals, I think that generally we could
say we like our, our, our peace, and our calm and our small time feel, and we, I feel, resistant to
any invasion of development and, um, it seems like it’s, of course it’s greed for money. It seems
like and we suffer for it. They build and hopefully people will come. And it’s all about money,
um, we suffer because it, losing what we want for ourselves and our environment.
51:44 EG: Yeah. So something you mentioned, you mentioned about the Keewatin and just the
visible landscape right, and just the visible landscape of looking out there. And certainly the
development just looks, to see that the development of those condos and things.
51:56 JA: Oh, yeah.
51:58 EG: It really has changed the visual landscape.
51:59 JA: Oh, big time. Yeah. Unfortunately
52:00 EG: Other, other changes. Just think about, you know as you were talking about Disco in
the late 1970’s and high school and into the 1980’s. Uh, and you mentioned the dunes earlier,
that area of town. What do you remember about the reaction to, uh, LGBT folks in Saugatuck
Douglas? And maybe the dunes specifically which opened right in, right in those years?
52:35 JA: Hm.
52:37 EG: If, if anything. If anything stands out to you.
52:38 JA: Yeah. You know, there the first inkling of that type of thing, way back when, it must
have been early 60’s is probably what others have talked about, I hope, is a place called the Blue
Tempo or something like that
52:57 EG: Yeah
�52:59 JA: I remember that, and that was a little bit of, I don’t know. Would you call it den of
iniquity maybe? Or something going on. I knew that was something, woo, outside of the norm a
little bit out there. Um, unusual things going on. I was very young. In the 60’s
53:17 EG: Right
53:17 JA: I was just a young child, but I remember that place
53:20 EG: Or people talking about it at least
53:21 JA: Yeah.
53:22 EG: Having reactions to that
53:23 JA: Yeah. That, that, that was hmm. And um, so I don’t have a lot of clarity on that
because I was so young when that was happening. That’s my first exposure to something
alternative to your normal, accepted, uh, standard lifestyle going on, so. But I think, I think it
gave me, it opened my mind. That this is ok. Because of Saugatuck Douglas and its acceptance
and that group, um, feeling comfortable in this area. Coming to this area and putting, frankly, a
lot of money in this area. And improving the area. And, uh, embracing the arts. And embracing
class and elegance, and really kind of doing good things for the area I think. So. That’s been a
good thing. Live and let live and they have made a lot of contributions to the area, which I
appreciate.
54: 37 EG: Yeah, yeah for sure. Yeah. I was just interested, thinking about the, the kind of
timing of that. The reaction and being in high school
54:44 JA: Yeah
54:46 EG: And one way or another. But not really
54:49 JA: No
54:49 EG: Not all that remarkable
54:51 JA: Not, not
54:51 EG: Like the beach, it’s kind of like the beach story. Let people do their thing right?
54:55 JA: [laugh] yeah! It’s, it’s a good thing
54:48 EG: Do you remember much of being, just being a teenager, being a high school student.
Were there, yeah, what was that like? What was the culture of high school, Saugatuck High
School like in the 1970’s, late 1970’s?
�55:10 JA: mm. Well, I what really stands out, one big thing is there was the old high school,
and then there was the new high school. And the old high school, I was, um able to go. I was,
um, 7th grade, which it was a 7th, 8th, and up high school, I went to 7th grade in the old high
school. I was the last class to come in and to go there before they, they built the new high school.
So um, I was really glad to have that experience. And there’s still cement steps that were put in
place for the students to go back and forth to that high school yet. So that’s kind of a nice
remnant of what was. Um, and the new high school was 8th through 12th. And that was where I
spent most of the time, and it was very exciting to be in a brand new high school. Very modern,
uh, lots of sports going on. I did track, I, I was a little bit of an outsider. I, I got along with other
groups, but I kind of had a group of outsiders in a way, um, Wendy Strum. Steve Wa, and
myself, and, so, um, I was the MC for the pep rallies. I was actually, strangely enough and
maybe not, the senior class president for my class. So. What do you know? [laugh]
56:53 EG: How is this just coming up now? You should have started right there.
56:54 JA: I know. Yeah
56:57 EG: Yeah
56:59 JA: Yeah, so I, I was, I usually ran the dances at high school. You know. Because I was
Jean, Jean the dancing machine, and the music, and we’d have music in the cafetorium. That was
a new catch phrase at the time. We ate there, we had dances there, we had
57:19 EG: How, how often were those? How often did, every week or?
57:20 JA: Yeah. With the football season, it was at the time and um, pep rallies in the
gymnasium. That was me on the microphone
57:29 EG: Firing up the crowd
57:30 JA: [laugh] Fired up and ready to go. Woo
57:37 EG: All the, all the, all of that.
57:39 JA: Yeah. Making posters. The whole thing
57:42 EG: What, what kind of dances? What kind of music were you all listening to?
57:48 JA: Oh yeah. Well
57:52 EG: Was Disco, was there any tension, was there a disco vs.
57:54 JA: Yeah, vs Rock. You know, we had Boston, and the Cars, and Led Zeppelin, and but
what I liked was Michael Jackson, and I could pretty much cut a good robot in my day, so um,
so, we had a variety. Had to have a variety of music, but I was more of the dancey, discoy,
�because I was trying to get in on that. Because at the time, that was the disco time when I was in
high school. So I’m trying to recreate that on a high school level. The dances
58:34 EG: yeah. Was that successful? Did you have followers?
58:36 JA: Yeah, somewhat. I mean, we had a variety of music. But there were a lot of hard
rock people too, so. Yeah. So there you go
58:50 EG: So high school life. Um, graduated
58:57 JA: Yeah
58:58 EG: Left, left the area
58:59 JA: Senior trip we should say
59:00 EG: Senior trip. Talk about that. Yeah
59:03 JA: Senior trip. That was a summery deal. We went to Daytona Beach, Florida. [laugh]
so
59:07 EG: [laugh]
59:08 JA On a bus, on a school bus with, I don’t know how we had music playing, but we did.
And that’s where I remember the Cars and Boston and that type of music
59:20 EG: So you took a school bus from Saugatuck, Michigan to Daytona, Florida
59:21 JA: Yes. Can you believe it?
59:25 EG: How long did that take?
59:27 JA: Way long. Really long.
59:29 EG: Really, I mean that would by car that would be like 20 plus hours. Days.
59:34 JA: Yeah. So, I don’t know. We were on a budge obviously.
59:39 EG: Clearly
59:39 JA: Yeah. Yeah.
59:40 EG: No air conditioning?
59:41 JA: No. No you know we were
�59:44 EG: This was in, this was in May or June when school got out
59:47 JA: Yeah. Yeah. So, um, at, well, oh boy that was fun. Um, once we were down there on
the beach in our bathing suits, and the, the gift shops, and oh probably a little, you know, less
than ideal behavior happening. Um, I was pretty, pretty goody two shoes you could say, but I
know there was an all, not everyone was.
1:00:18
EG: This is in a, to compare with some earlier time periods we asked people too,
and I’ll ask you, you know what sort of shenanigans were pulled? Did people get into? Maybe
not yourself, but other people that you were high school with? I mean, what was, or didn’t they
much, was there much, was there much issues with, and you don’t have to name any names or
say anything you don’t want to share, but, uh, you know. Parties. Run ins with the law.
1:00:49
JA: [laugh] yeah. Oh no.
1:00:50
EG: Pranks.
1:00:50
JA: I guess I don’t know a whole lot of that because that was, that was not my
circle. I wasn’t a real bad girl. I was kind of a good girl, which, eh, so that doesn’t lend to a
whole lot of exciting, stories, but that’s what I got.
1:01:05
EG: all right. That’s totally fine. Yeah. Um, thinking kind of, you commented on
a little bit on things that since have changed over time that you really valued about the
community. Hopes for, hopes for the future of, of the community; looking ahead
1:01:30
JA: Oh, well, probably just continuing with the thought of, um, guarding against
more development and preserving the quality of the area. And the, um, oh. What, oh, how do I
want to say it. Preserving the good parts, the best things about the area. Not losing that to the
greed and the development that I think probably continually pushes in on the area from someone
trying to make a buck from our wonderful little Saugatuck Douglas area. We want to, we want to
keep it wonderful. And, and the dunes area, and the environment, and preserving that because
that is a real treasure. So yeah. Those are the two biggest things, I think.
1:02:30
EG: yeah. For sure. So, last, last question I like to ask, penultimate question, uh,
we’re doing these interviews so they’ll be saved for a long time. Uh, imagine someone listening
to this 50 plus years from now. That’s a long time. 2068
1:02:48
JA: [gasp] wow.
1:02:48
EG: You know, uh, what would you like them to know about your life and about
the community, as you’ve experienced it?
1:02:58
JA: Hm. Yeah. Well, wow. Yeah. Somebody in the future. What do they need to
know? Well, I, I would hope that it would still be similar. That they, the water would be a big
aspect of it, the, the work of the area, and the inspiration of the area on artists. That’s really, I
hope that is still going on. And that was a big part of it now. Um, and hopefully they can enjoy
�the dunes. And enjoy the water, and still, I’m hoping that the elements that make Saugatuck
Douglas so special are still intact and still able to be enjoyed and treasured. It’s like, oh, I’m
getting, [laugh]
1:03:56
EG: [laugh] It’s powerful, it’s powerful stuff right? The sense of place here is so
strong. I’ve got to ask you one more question to kind of follow up on that. Thinking about art, we
didn’t touch on this at all, but growing up here, all of your experiences, kind of on the
Kalamazoo and in this area, uh, what was your awareness of or any interaction you had with
Oxbow or artists that came here? Uh, yeah
1:04: 24
JA: Well that’s a significant place is Oxbow, and it’s kind of a secret society art
place, art school in a way. I mean, it’s not main stream. I mean, everybody kind of knows about
it. Although they always have a wild representation in the parades for holidays, but, um, yeah.
That’s pretty significant that that was established here in this area. Which accounts for the
inspiration of this area to artists
1:04:57
EG: Yeah, do, do you remember much out of it, I mean what did you notice
growing up. Particularly different states, as someone who grew up here, from childhood through
adolescence and teenaged years. Do you have, do you have early memories of it, or was it just
kind of always mysterious place?
1:05:17
JA: Yeah, memories but also you could drive through it and see some of the
buildings, went through it. I don’t know that I knew anybody that attended there. It seemed like it
was kind of an outsider um thing, that came locally to study there and be a part of Saugatuck in
that way. So, um, but art has been a big part of this area. And here we are, sitting in a room full
of artwork and watching dunes, so it’s kind of perfect, but um, art fairs, art shows. Always a big
part of Saugatuck, and um, artists in the area. I mean, that’s huge. That’s how you, that’s a big
descriptive of Saugatuck. So.
1:06:08
EG: Yeah. Anything, anything else in your notes that’s come up that you want to
share that I haven’t asked you about?
1:06:15
JA: Yeah, well, one thing I mentioned last night, um, that just speaks kind of to
the pride of being from here as a fact, like I said last night, when somebody asks where are you
from, and I say Saugatuck, and they say “oh, wow? You’re from Saugatuck? That’s great. That
must have been wonderful to group up in a place like that,” So the reputation of Saugatuck
wherever I go, and they find out where I’m from, they have a positive, um, impression of
Saugatuck. That it is a wonderful place to be, to visit, and someone at the time said she had
responses of “You actually live there?” Because I think it’s a lot of understanding that this is a
resort town, and we just have visitors come in, but, um, yeah, there are locals. There are native
Saugatuck and Douglas people. And I was born in Douglas Community Hospital. So I am truly
of the area
1:07:31
EG: Legitimate. Exactly legitimate Douglas, Doug, Douglas person
�1:07:36
JA: Yeah, and Dad delivered me actually. Dr. Hayes is my dad. I should mention
that. He was a prominent physician in this little area so
1:07:48
EG: Right, yeah, we didn’t, somehow skipped over that. Family connections. I
can’t believe I didn’t circle back to that.
1:07:49
JA: Well you did ask me. I didn’t mention that so yeah. He set up a practice I
think in 19, 1959, 1960. In that area. In Douglas actually.
1:08:00
EG: Is that, is that how your family came to this community? Was he from here?
1:08:07
JA: No. He wasn’t from here, but he went to Flint for his residency, I believe, and
um, came to explore Michigan and really appreciated the coast line and the water. Considered
Petoskey and maybe a couple others. And settled on Saugatuck Douglas, so.
1:08:30
EG: Where had he gone to school before coming to Flint?
1:08:33
JA: Uh, he was in Ohio. Ohio State. That, that system in, originally born in
Kansas, so completely out of the Michigan area, but his residency took him here and he fell in
love with Michigan, so. And my mom is an RN, and they met at Holland Hospital, and they
settled here and the rest is history. [laugh]
1:09:02
EG: yeah. [laugh] Well this has been a wonderful interview. It was so great
1:09:05
JA: Oh, well thank you, Eric. I appreciate you having me, and your time
1:09:09
EG: That’s great
1:09:09
JA: I appreciate. Thank you
1:09:10
EG: That’s wonderful, well, all right. Thanks so much for, for your time, and, uh,
this concludes the interview.
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas Collection
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. Kutsche Office of Local History
Description
An account of the resource
Collection contains images and documents digitized and collected through the project "Stories of Summer," supported by a National Endowment for the Humanities Common Heritage Grant. The collection aims to document the twin lakeshore communities of Saugatuck and Douglas, Michigan, as they transformed through the state's bustling tourism industry and acceptance of minorities.
Coverage
The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant
1910s-2010s
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Various
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/UND/1.0/">Copyright Undetermined</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Michigan, Lake
Allegan County (Mich.)
Beaches
Sand dunes
Outdoor recreation
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries. Allendale, Michigan
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Saugatuck-Douglas History Center
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
image/jpeg
application/pdf
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
English
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DC-07_SD-ArnoldJ-20181004
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Arnold, Jeanmarie Hays
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2018-10-04
Title
A name given to the resource
Jeanmarie Hays Arnold (Audio interview and transcript), 2018
Description
An account of the resource
Jean Arnold describes growing up Douglas with many memories of various jobs she held as a teenager. She also describes her encounters with the LGBT community in the 70's
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Gollannek, Eric (Interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Michigan
Saugatuck (Mich.)
Douglas (Mich.)
Allegan County (Mich.)
Outdoor recreation
Beaches
Sailing
Oral history
Audio recordings
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Documenting the Histories of Summers in Saugatuck-Douglas, Kutsche Office of Local History
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Relation
A related resource
Stories of Summer (Common Heritage project)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Text
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
audio/mp3
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng