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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d477cace4c921d4510e4efadbd528cda.mp4
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Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Isabel (Lefty) Alvarez
Length of Interview: (00:37:11)
Interviewed by: James Smither,
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, June 30, 2010
Interviewer: “Can you begin to tell us a little bit about your background? To start
with, where and when were you born?”
I was born on October 31, 1933 in Havana, Cuba.
Interviewer: “What did your father do for a living or what did your family do?”
Well, my father was in the marines and then in the police force for fifty years.
Interviewer: “So he had a regular job. How many children were in your family?”
My brother and myself only
Interviewer: “When did you start playing baseball?”
I think very—my mother was all sport orientated and she knew it was healthy, so baseball
they played in the street you know and she let me do the sports, but she didn’t let me do
any other things. 1:14
Interviewer: “What other sports did you play besides baseball?”
Fencing, soccer and baseball most of all
Interviewer: “Now, when you played these games, were you mostly playing with
boys or were there a lot of girls too?”
In the fencing there was women, it was well organized and directing the fencing was
people from the government.
Interviewer: “Did you have fencing tournaments and did you travel around?”
At the time, in fifty-- it was the time, I can’t remember the exact day, but we were going
to go to Europe for fencing and I had to make up my mind if I wanted to go to Europe or
come to the United States to play baseball, so I decided to come here and I would like to
know the date, I can’t remember. 2:09
Interviewer: “Well, when did you first have contact with American baseball?
When did you start playing either with or against American teams?”
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�In 1947 when they went to spring training and we had an exhibition game and to let you
know, I pitched that one game.
Interviewer: “How old were you when you pitched in this exhibition game?”
I was fourteen years old. In 1947, now I figure it out.
Interviewer: “If it was in the spring of 1947, you were probably thirteen.”
Thirteen, I can’t imagine.
Interviewer: “How did you do?”
I did very well, that’s what my mother told me. She was at the game and that’s the first
time my mother saw me play. 2:54
Interviewer: “How did they get the team together? How did you wind up on the
team?”
The owner of our Cuban team was a—he was the owner of a wine distillery and he had a
lot of connects with tourists and how he get to know Max Carey and the commissioners
of the league, I don’t have any idea, but he had a lot of good connections and a lot of
money and we had a place to go and train. I love it you know because we even stayed on
weekends and had food and everything. 3:33
Interviewer: “And do you remember at all what happened in that game that you
pitched against the Americans? Your mother told you, you did well.”
Well that’s when they decided they were going to bring four Cubans to the United States
and the President came to my house to my mother and said I wasn’t old enough to come
to the United States, you had to be fifteen, so I waited until 1949, I was fifteen then.
Interviewer: “You really knew from 1947, that you wanted to go.”
Yeah, the manager said, the Cuban manager, “you’re going to be next”, so I knew and it
was anxiety you know. 4:16
Interviewer: “So then when it gets to 1949 and you’re going to go to America, how
did they get you over to the states and where did you go first? Do you remember
about going over?”
The first time I step here in the United States to go to play for—it was Chicago and I—
coming fresh from Cuba at that age, I didn’t even know I was in Chicago.
Interviewer: “How did you get from Cuba up to Chicago?”
By—how did I get over there? A plane to Miami and then drive to Chicago.
Interviewer: “You drove to Chicago?”
2
�No, I didn’t drive—how did I get over there? That’s a funny thing, how did I get to
Chicago?” 5:08 We fly, we had to fly. We flew yes.
Interviewer: “Now, were you all by yourself when you did this or did you have
someone with you?”
There were three Cubans with me.
Interviewer: “So, a group of four Cubans go together?”
Yes, together, that’s how we first started in 1949.
Interviewer: “So, the time you came to the United States did you speak any English
yet?”
Not very much, my mother was tutoring me with words and works and everything
because my mother was right, to learn English. There was a professor in Cuba, a
neighbor, he was supposed to learn, to teach English and my mother sent me to him for a
week . He thought I could learn English in a week. I don’t know, so then my brother,
when I came over here he said, “well you knew English when you came to the United
States”, and I said, “I did not know the English much in a week”. 6:09
Interviewer: “What happened once you got to Chicago? What did they do with you
then? What did you do?”
They assigned us to a team and I was assigned to the Chicago Colleens.
Interviewer: “Did the team make any provision to help—were you the only Cuban
player they had or did all of you go together?”
No, there were four of us.
Interviewer: “All four of you to one team?”
Yes, two, there were two teams, the Chicago Colleens and the Springfield Sallies.
Interviewer: “So two went to each team?”
Yes. 6:45
Interviewer: “You had somebody else there from Cuba.”
Yes, those years, Madelia, the older one. She was the one who helped a lot with the
language because she knew pretty good English when she came.
Interviewer: “How well did you get along with the other players on the team?”
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�I had no problem with getting along because I was happy to be here and I knew that I had
to get along because my mother was right there and she wanted me here in the United
States, so I better—I don’t know, it was something natural. I was trained to like the
United States from my mother and I think it’s good. 7:36
Interviewer: “At this point you were a pitcher?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Primarily pitching, all right, now was the game you were playing
here any different from the game you played in Cuba in terms of the style of play or
the equipment used or anything like that?”
The ball was a little bigger, but I don’t really—I got adjusted so well, I feel, that I don’t
have any knowledge about it that I had trouble because I was here to play ball and that’s
what my mother wanted me to do.
Interviewer: “Ok, and how successful were you as a player at that point? Did you
Pitch well and win games?”
Well, I don’t –all those years back, they got some scores—I got some baseball cards, but
my records, they don’t show that I was a real, real great ball player. 8:41 I don’t
consider myself that great.
Interviewer: “How long did you play in the American baseball league?”
Six years.
Interviewer: “Six years, you stayed in the league all that time?”
Yeah
Interviewer: “So you were apparently good enough to do that?”
Right, and I had the chance when the Colleens folded, I had a chance to go to Fort
Wayne, they picked me up to go to Fort Wayne and that’s the biggest opportunity I had.
Interviewer: “Did you like playing in Fort Wayne better than Chicago or was it
about the same?”
Well, we were in a group and we would ride the bus all together, everything was all
together, but when I went to Fort Wayne I was just on my own and it took me a little
longer time to start getting use to it, but it wasn’t anything that I disliked. You’re just in
a strange place all by yourself. After coming from a group and going to Fort Wayne you
didn’t know anybody and they were older. The girls in Fort Wayne that were playing,
they were older than I was. 9:59 I got along and I think I did very well.
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�Interviewer: “Tell me a little bit about the experience of just kind of traveling
around with these teams. When you’re going to play how did you get from one
game to another? What did they do? Did they put you on busses or trains?”
Yes, busses and oh yeah, we had more fun and I sat in the front, in the front seat, so I
could have the big window in the bus and then I can read the signs where we were going
and the manager was sitting in the other side and he was a mixed Cuban. I would read a
sign and he helped me to pronounce it better. 10:46
Interviewer: “Who was your manager at this time? What was his mane?”
Mitch Skupien, I might not be pronouncing it right, but he was really, really nice.
Interviewer: “When you were playing at these games, did you get a lot of fans who
would come to the games in Fort Wayne or Chicago?”
Yes, and I always had a lot of good—a lot of fans, they liked me, but everybody was
always nice. I have a lot of respect for the people here, but I was brought up that way.
Interviewer: “The league had a lot of rules for how the players were to dress and
act and all that kind of thing, was it easy for you to follow those rules or did it not
make any sense to you?” 11:48
No, No, it was because I was raised differently. My mother you know, different, and I
didn’t, my mother always pampered me a lot with lipstick and combing my hair and my
dress, she just couldn’t let me out of the house without being dressed nice. I didn’t go to
school there because the schooling was in 1943 and by 1949 they didn’t have those strict
rules. 12:26
Interviewer: “So it wasn’t quite the same as it was when the league started by the
time you got there?”
It was different it was just different.
Interviewer: “Were there particular friends you had on these teams or people you
got to know really well and stand out in your memory?”
Yes, I had a—it was more they get close to the Cubans you know and we always had that,
the players being very, very nice. I had pretty good luck in that and we had fun because
my English was broken and they laughed and I laughed with them because it was funny.
13:13
Interviewer: “Ok now, when you think back about the time that you spent in this
league playing these games, are there particular events or things that kind of stand
out in your mind or that come back to you a lot, good things that happened to you at
certain points along the way?”
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�On the touring or on the whole?
Interviewer: “Anything about that whether it’s on the tour or in a game or off the
field.”
Well, I mean what—I’ve been lucky, I don’t know if it’s the right word because—
Interviewer: “If you hadn’t had the opportunity to come to the United States to
play baseball, what do you think you might have done over that period of six years
instead?”
You mean in Cuba?
Interviewer: “If you were back in Cuba, yes.”
Oh my dear, I don’t know, my mother would have been crying, but she would cry
because that was her ideal, the baseball, she loved baseball. She use to—in our house she
was one of those little old ladies and she would sit there and listen to the Cubans baseball
playing. She was, there was a team names Allemandes, their blue, and she would light a
little candle, she loved baseball. 14:38
Interviewer: “That really was her dream, that you go and do this?”
Exactly, she probably would have liked to play ball herself.
Interviewer: “Did she ever come up to the United States to see you play?”
Never
Interviewer: “Did anyone from your family come up at any point?”
No, they never could because at the time it was hard to sponsor anybody. I couldn’t
sponsor anybody, so it was rough.
Interviewer: “So there were immigration rules and things that made it difficult to
come up?”
You had to have a sponsor and I was very lucky in 1953 when Mr. And Mrs. Blee,
they—I met them through their daughter at a ball game. I met them, they took me home,
to their home, they gave me a room and then, because they knew I was a Daisy then you
see, and anybody who was a Daisy player, they had to be good people, and more or less
from Cuba. 15:37
Interviewer: “So, what kind of living—did you normally live with people’s families
in their home?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Did you do that in Chicago too?”
No, we stayed in hotels.
6
�Interviewer: “So, when you got to Fort Wayne you would go and live in people’s
houses?”
Yes
Interviewer: “So these people essentially sponsored you so you could stay in the
states?”
No, this was after the first year when I went to Fort Wayne in 1951. I already knew who
I was going to live with, I think the league set it up. The fans would take ball players in,
so I went to—with them, and this time in 1951 and in 1954 I went back to Fort Wayne
and where was I staying in 1954? 16:24
Interviewer: “I was asking, how did you wind up staying in the United States?”
Oh, yes
Interviewer: “You talked about people sponsoring you.”
In 1951, when I came on, I was rooming there for doing baseball and then in—I met
someone at a ball game for some reason. It’s a long story and I don’t know if you want
to hear that?
Interviewer: “We’re interested, yes.”
I was at the ball park watching some—I wasn’t playing ball, and there were some kids
playing softball and I went to the ball park to watch them, so I was sitting there, I was
very fresh from Cuba and I even had a little pocket with money that my mother always
said to put it in between your bra, and for some reason, I have some pictures, and I knew
I was a Daisy, so then that time I had some pictures with me and the kids were all crazy
about looking at my pictures and suddenly I don’t know where everything was. 17:31
My money, the money that I had, I must have—I don’t know and the pictures, I couldn’t
find nothing I was—so one of the girls from the ball team, she was the one that helped
me, she called the FBI and we were going to call the police to see if these kids have taken
the money and run, and guess what? That morning that was finding the police, the FBI
she said and I went to the ballpark and you know I found everything, the pictures and the
money, that little pocket. Somebody get scared and throw it around and I was very lucky
because I had about a hundred dollars and then she took me home to meet her mom and
dad and that was it. They give me a home and they applied for citizenship in 1953
because they knew I was—I was kind of lost really that year, it was in 1952. 18:47 I
went there and I stayed with them and became friends and this friend, it wasn’t a friend,
she was the one who helped me, she went into college and I stayed with her mom and dad
and I was sleeping in her room upstairs while she was in college, so I never saw this
friend, I never saw her very much. 19:16
Interviewer: “Now, the league shuts down after the 1954 season, so when that came
to an end what did you do at that point?”
7
�See, in 1953, Mr. and Mrs. Blee, I applied for citizenship paper, so in 1954 I had my
residence, so I didn’t go back home.
Interviewer: “What did you do for a living at that point?”
They give me a job I was a carhop. They call in the drive-in and he says, “I got a girl
here from Cuba and she don’t speak English, but she needs a job”, and Don Holt said,
“bring her over “, so they drove me in there and they give me a job and I could hardly
even speak English, but they were helping me. I use to go and take the orders you know
you put a tray in and sometimes I miss the tray drops and sometimes kids they laugh at
you. 20:25 I go inside, take the order and go inside and call it and the manager he saw
me coming and he grabbed my slip and said, “I can read it faster than you can call it”, but
you know what, I never got mad at him, I thought he was great, he was a good manager.
20:50
Interviewer: “How long did you wind up working there?”
I don’t know how many years, but I worked quite a bit until. Right, and then I went to—I
worked on the 401 Tailoring Co. also, so I really worked all through my whole after
baseball. I worked and I always had a job. Years ago you know they helped me to go
and get a job, they aren’t going to support you.
Interviewer: “If you look over that whole experience you had playing baseball etc.
How do you think that wound up affecting you? You talked a little bit about how,
and obviously your life was different because you came to America and stayed, did
it change you as a person? Did you otherwise?” 21:44
No, it probably made me better because I was raised that America was a good country
and you had that in your mind to respect.
Interviewer: “Have you paid much attention to what has happened with women’s
sports in this country over the past fifty years? You see more women on television
doing different things, basketball and that kind of thing.”
It is great and I think your mother and father have a lot to do with getting their son’s and
daughters to start playing sports and supporting them, but the mother has to have the
incentive like my mother did otherwise I wouldn’t be here because my dad said, “why are
you going to go over there where it’s cold?” It would have broke my heart if they would
never take me to come to the United States. 22:53
Interviewer: “Aside from just being on your own, were there aspects of just
adjusting to living in the states that were a problem? Did the cold bother you or
anything like that?”
No, I never did complain about the weather. As a matter of fact, I didn’t complain about
much of anything because I was here best and complain, ‘holly cow”. I never was that
type either, but I made a lot of friendships and that’s one thing and I don’t know I’m just
8
�myself, but my friends have made my world. In Fort Wayne too, I don’t have no enemies
I don’t think so. 23:53
Interviewer: “I can see why you wouldn’t. Do you have anything else that you
would like to put on the record here before we close out the interview? Anything
that you would like to say about the league itself or playing?”
Well, I am so thankful and I have been very lucky because of all the Cubans that came. I
believe that I—let me see how I’m going to say it, I just, the appreciation that I have
being here. 24:48
Interviewer: “Now, were their other Cubans that came and joined the league after
you did? Did you meet anybody new or were you the last group?”
Yes, and there were some that came before earlier.
Interviewer: “Alright, there is something I did want to get in here and ask you a
little and that’s, did you normally have a spring training session of some kind?
What did you do to prepare for a season from one year to the next?”
When I use to go back home or here?
Interviewer: “No, from one year to the next, while you were playing baseball, did
you go home in the winter?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Ok, you go home in the winter and then you?”
From 1949 until 1953 I use to go back home.
Interviewer: “When you came back, did you do spring training games before the
regular season?” 25:53
Yes, just a spring training practicing.
Interviewer: “Where did you do the practicing? Was that wherever your team was
based?”
Yes, and when I was in Chicago, in the morning we use to practice and on tour, the
touring team, we practiced the same and it’s a mostly in the morning we did our
practicing.
Interviewer: “Was it 1949 and 1950 that your team was touring?”
Right, we did a lot of practice.
Interviewer: “When you were touring would you play just any local teams from any
community you went to?”
9
�We had two teams, the Springfield Sallies and Chicago.
Interviewer: “They just toured together and played in different places.”
Yes, and they would advertise in the paper that we were in town and we had the tryouts
for the one, just like in the movie you know. 26:50
Interviewer: “As you were touring, how far away from Chicago did you get when
you were traveling? Did you just stay in the Midwest mostly?”
Yes, let me see, about—I had that written down how many places we went. I had a map
and right now I just can’t tell you because I—sorry.
Interviewer: “But there were a lot of different towns, not just two or three places?”
Oh yes
Interviewer: “Were they in a few hours of each other or did you have really long
trips sometimes?”
We played and we also left that same night sometimes. The traveling was heavy you
know and the many towns in the states; we had quite a few, close to fifty, fifty-six I think.
27:54
Interviewer: “You said you would hold tryouts when you went to these different
places?”
Yes and there was one lady, one of the girls, she’s in our team and she’s here today. We
pick her up in Cuba for Arkansas and she was a good pitcher and she came with us and
she had to leave home and she was--said English and we became friends because she was
sitting in the same seat. Can you imagine what she thought, I can’t speak English and she
was from Arkansas. We got along fine and we’re still good friends now and she stayed in
the league and she is really the only one we picked up that I can remember.
Interviewer: “Did they recruit women to play? At some point they had to through
junior teams or things like that. Did they recruit people for those teams or just—“
To play for us, yeah they had three and they had to be pretty good and she was, she was a
good pitcher and we always need pitchers.
Interviewer: “As far as your own playing career goes, you were a pitcher. Now,
were you a starting pitcher or were you a relief pitcher or both?” 29:32
I was a starter and relief both ways.
Interviewer: “And did you play any other positions?”
Outfielder.
10
�Interviewer: “So it wasn’t like the baseball teams today where the pitcher only
pitches and is sitting on the bench the rest of the time?”
No, no and also, the pitcher never get in hitting practice very much. I can’t imagine that,
so supposedly when you run the bases then they bring you your coat and that was real.
The pitcher was given great care and the chaperone would message your arm. 30:24
Interviewer: “So they did try to do what they could at that point to make sure you
didn’t blow out your arm or anything else like that?”
Right, they were very, very good.
Interviewer: “Now, did you ever get hurt while you were playing? Did you ever
have an injury that kept you out of the games?”
Yes, in 1954 in Fort Wayne.
Interviewer: “What happened?”
Trying to second base and I twisted my leg, so that was it. I went to the hospital and they
put me in traction and they left me in traction for one month, can you imagine this?
Interviewer: “That’s what they did back in those days.”
I lay there and I didn’t know nothing you know, so I never went back in the game
because I had to have surgery. 31:10
Interviewer: “Now, when you heard about the league shutting down, were you sad
about that or were you planning on going back?”
No, I wasn’t going back, I was just here, I was glad I had my residence. If I never would
have met those people I would be back in Cuba yet. My mother would cry then, but I’m
so thankful, you just can’t imagine how lucky I’ve been. I think I have been, of all the
Cubans and I’m not bragging, I have been the lucky one.
Interviewer: “It certainly sounds like you had a good time and you tell good stories
and thank you for coming in and talking to me today.”
Thank you thank you. 32:05
11
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-58_IAlvarez
Title
A name given to the resource
Alvarez, Isabel "Lefty" (Interview transcript and video), 2009
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Alvarez, Isabel
Description
An account of the resource
Isabel Alvarez was born in Havana, Cuba in 1933. She grew up in Havana and played baseball with the neighborhood kids and was also involved with other sports. In 1947, she pitched her first exhibition game in American baseball and was picked by the All American League and sponsored to come to the United States with three other Cubans to play baseball in 1949. She played pitcher for the Chicago Colleens from 1949 through the 1950 season. When the Chicago Colleens folded, she went on to play for the Fort Wayne Daisies during the 1951 and 1954 seasons. Upon getting her citizenship in 1953 she stayed in the United States permanently. During her six-year baseball career she also played utility outfielder and also played briefly with the Battle Creek Belles (1951); Kalamazoo Lassies (1953); and the Grand Rapids Chicks (1954).
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
Baseball players--Illinois
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Michigan
Women
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-09-26
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1b64f55a7dbd7dc7175438b0a9709c80.mp4
865c0169efff1f1c763542b8b6293b15
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ef13599ed0c98ada1c77d1bd4a3b3787.pdf
634482ef9c7f81791b753a0c9a998049
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans’ History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Lou Arnold
Interviewer: “Lou can you start out by telling us a little bit about yourself, for
instance, where and when were you born?”
I was born in Pawtucket Rhode Island in 1925-May 11, 1925.
Interviewer: “They have you in the book as being born in 1923?”
I mean 1923.
Interviewer: “Just checking on it. That will be the one time I can catch you up on
something probably. You were born in 1923 and did you grow up on Pawtucket or
did you grow up somewhere else?”
I’m the thirteenth child and that’s why my numbers thirteen on my uniform. I was born
in Rhode Island, Pawtucket and grew up in Rhode Island.
Interviewer: “What did your family do for a living?”
My father, at one time, had a cemetery. I don’t know what you call it, but he took care of
it and people that came to be buried and my mother never worked. My father also taught
a wood working school for a while. 1:12
Interviewer: “Was he able to keep his job through the depression?”
No, as a matter of fact we lost our home during the depression. You know I was young
then and I had all the kids in the neighborhood come over and I said,” We got a red flag
on our house, we got a red flag on our house”. We didn’t know, my mother went to New
York and we had no idea and that’s what it was, they were auctioning it off—yeah, that’s
something to remember.
Interviewer: “Did you stay in Pawtucket and just live somewhere else?”
No, I stayed in Pawtucket and I played softball. I played softball for the “Opit Milk
Maids” and we won the championship in softball and we changed it to different names
like the “Townies” and different names, but they were all farm gals but myself. 1:59
Interviewer: “How did you hook up with them? How did you wind up playing for
them?”
They were playing at the ball park one night and we went to see them and my brother-in
law’s brother was there and he said, “Lou, you ought to get in and play ball with them”,
1
�and I said, “oh, I don’t know, I just pick-up”, so I went—not to the tryout, but to the
team, to try with the team and I played shortstop since the first time I went. 2:21
Interviewer: “All right, had you been playing a lot just around the neighborhood
before?”
No, not too much, but I had a brother who use to pitch to me and I played catch with my
brother, but that team—I think I was fourteen or fifteen when I started on that team and I
stayed with that team.
Interviewer: “You stayed with that team. Now did they pay you?”
No, it was just an amateur thing, but one thing we did—we played in Boston Garden
maybe every other Friday night and that’s something that—I don’t know of any other
team—Mary Pratt might have, I don’t know. We use to go to the Boston Garden on
Friday night. 3:09
Interviewer: “That’s an old indoor arena.”
Yes, that was a big deal to us you know to go.
Interviewer: “Would you get a crowd to watch you play?”
They had a pretty good crowd there, yeah.
Interviewer: So how was it exactly that you wind up joining the professional
baseball league?”
I was with the “Townies” then, and they were playing the sailors down at Newport and
they had a girl pitcher and the two women pitched against each other and we were there
and we played and had a good time and when we came out this man walked up and he
said, “hey Lou, how would you like to play professional baseball?” And I said, “Oh,
wonderful, yeah, yeah”. We had never known him, well, he asked myself and three other
girls, four of us. The other three went and they called me and said, “Oh Lou you should
come out, you’d love it”, but you know, at the time I had a boyfriend in the service and
stuff like that you know. 4:14 I hesitated and finally I said, “I think I’m going to go”.
Well, my mother was a little upset and my father was too, but anyway, I went and I
remember I took the train and went to Opa-locka, Florida. That’s where they had the
spring training and that’s where we had old barracks to stay in and all that. It was very
good and I don’t know if you saw the movie, but it was like in the movie, you get playing
a game with different people and all of a sudden the roster is up there and you go and
look at it and it’s sad—say you were next to me and I got on and you know we got to be
good friends playing and the girl next to me couldn’t make it, she didn’t make it and
she’s crying and I’m crying and I’m crying for her, but it was a wonderful, wonderful
experience. 5:12
Interviewer: “So you were trying out for which team?”
2
�They were going to pick for the teams and the “Blue Sox” picked me and I stayed with
them all the time.
Interviewer: “Is that the South Bend Blue Sox?”
Yes, the South Bend Blue Sox.
Interviewer: “At this time you said you had been a short stop.”
I almost flipped when I got out there and they had a man that worked with you on
pitching and he said, “We’re going to make a pitcher out of you”. At the time I had a
pretty good arm, you know a shortstop can throw them over pretty good and I think that’s
what made him think that I’d be a wonderful, wonderful pitcher. Well, I don’t think I
was a wonderful, wonderful pitcher, but you did as they said you know and the man
worked with me and everything a lot, so that’s how I got to pitch. 5:59 Never, never
played another position on a team, never got the chance.
Interviewer: “What they were doing with you is what they do with professional
male baseball players. They may start at one position, but then they said, “well, you
have the skills to go over here and that’s what we need”, so short stops can become
pitchers for the very reason that you did, they had good arms. See, you had a good
arm and you learned to pitch pretty well.”
I don’t feel I was a star or anything.
Interviewer: “Now, at the point when you joined the league, this was the point when
they had gone to overhand pitching. If they had been still been doing underhand or
sidearm, would you have done that?”
Oh I would have if they wanted me to, but I went out for shortstop you know. 6:47
Interviewer: “and when you were shortstop, the shortstops pretty much, they would
all be throwing overhand normally wouldn’t they? Throw fast.”
Oh yeah.
Interviewer: “That was a little more natural.”
In softball you have to throw that ball over there for shortstop.
Interviewer: “How was the game you were starting to play, how was that different
from the softball you had been playing back up in New England?”
I never played softball here. The year I came out in 1948 they went over to—
Interviewer: “What I’m asking is how was that baseball different from what you
had been doing in the amateur league?”
3
�Well, for one thing, the bases were farther apart and the pitching mound a little away too
and it was really exciting to be honest with you though I loved softball and it is hard to
pick between the two of them because I enjoyed myself at softball and I played every
single game and every single day that we played. 7:44
Interviewer: “Were you a little bit older than some of the other women?”
Yes, I was twenty-five, I think, when I went in or twenty-four or something like that. I
think it was twenty-five or twenty-six.
Interviewer: “Did that make you almost a mother figure for some of them? Would
you do things to help some of them adjust?”
Oh yes, yes, oh yes and I use to talk and sometimes we would have a girl keep score one
time back home and going to the gym and this girl said to me, “I never do anything but
score keeping”, and boy I really told that kid I said, “you know, if you didn’t keep their
score nobody would have their average, nobody would know what their hitting, you’re
just as important as the girl that gets the home runs”. That kid looked at me as if to say,
“are you crazy lady?” 8:46 I said, “I’m serious”, and it’s true, no matter what—even if
you carry the water you’re carrying it for someone to get a drink and it’s going to help
them to either get a base hit or strike somebody out or throw somebody out. No matter
what you do it’s professional. I couldn’t believe you know, I think the first time I made
sixty-five dollars a week and I left a job that I earned thirteen dollars and seventy-five
cents a week. I made more than some of the superintendents back home. It might sound
crazy, but that was a lot of money a week 9:26
Interviewer: “What did you do with your money?”
Well, I sent money home to my mom and a lot of them went to college, which was a very
smart thing. A lot of the ball players are college graduates, but I never went to college.
Interviewer: “That gets a little farther in the story. Do you remember making the
trip up to South Bend and arriving there and looking around?”
Well not too much, I remember I went on a train from Rhode Island to Florida and you
know never being out of Rhode Island, it was really, really “whew” I was afraid
somebody was going to grab me, I don’t know, but when you got there and you met all
the gals—you never knew what team you were going to be on and you didn’t even know
if you were going to be picked, but it was a wonderful time and what an experience for
kids from Rhode Island—we just never went—maybe Boston was the farthest we went, if
we went then. 10:37 What a thrill, just absolutely. You know sir I’m going to tell you—
ever since I played ball, from the first night I joined the South Bend Blue Sox, I never,
never in my life missed a night without thanking God for that opportunity. I’m eighty-six
today and that was a wonderful time of your life. It was the cleanest league, not that
there were any dirty leagues or anything, but that was one of the cleanest leagues you
would ever want to be in. It made you proud if you never got off the bench just to be
4
�there. The gals were just wonderful to me, absolutely wonderful and I was so scared, but
it didn’t take long for them to get with me and everything, you know. 11:27
Interviewer: “Now how much sort of support did they give you? Were they still
using chaperones, did they still have a lot of rules for you to follow?”
Oh yes, the chaperones were very, very good though. We had to be in by eleven, eleven
thirty depending on what kind of a game it was and you weren’t supposed to wear shorts
or slacks off the bus or anything like that. We wore shorts on the bus because it was so
warm, but we had skirts that we put on. You wore skirts almost all the time because you
couldn’t go out anyplace unless you kind of sneak out the window. If we went to the
park to have a hot dog roast or something we wore shorts or slacks, but that’s a little
different. 12:12
Interviewer: “Where did you live when you went up to South Bend?”
I lived at I’ll say South Bend; I lived there most of the time in houses, in homes. When
you went, somebody had to, if you were a rookie, somebody had to take you as their
roommate, one of the older ones, someone that wasn’t a rookie. That’s how you got into
a room with someone.
Interviewer: “Do you remember who your first roommate was?”
Her name was Thompson, but I can’t think—I think her last name was Thompson, but
I’m not sure. I wasn’t with her too long because they traded--they traded like crazy, but I
had wonderful roommates. 13:03 Wonderful roommates and landladies, they were
just—they would have pies made for us and lots—we were really treated wonderful. I
never—I worked at Bendix for thirty years and I never even said that I played ball. There
were maybe five of us that worked at Bendix and none of us mentioned playing ball and
when they found out that we played ball they went insane. “You never told us you
played for the South Bend Blue Sox” and stuff like that. 13:35 To us it was wonderful
and not private, but to me it meant so much and I never felt I was a star or anything, but I
use to pitch to the stars and they got better by hitting the ball. One gal came in and she
said, “Lou, I never get to do anything, sometimes I throw at the bat”, and I said, “If they
didn’t have you to throw to them, how are they going to keep their eye on the ball. You
mean a lot to them and don’t think that you don’t. Don’t feel that way.” That helped a
lot and who was I to tell them, that’s my opinion, I mean that’s how I felt and I got
wonderful, wonderful friends out of it. 14:26
Interviewer: “I will tell you, as we were organizing the set of interviews etc. and
planning to call even before we got here people said again and again, “You have to
talk to Lou Arnold”, which means those friends of yours are real friends and they
thought she was someone we should talk to.”
I’ll tell you, I get very, very touchy about it, but you can’t believe the friends I got out of
this league. You just can’t believe it and I feel that I could call any single ball player that
5
�I know and I’ve met off the ball field now or they could call me and they would give me
their last dime and I would give them my last dime. 15:11
Interviewer: “Now let’s shift gears a little bit and let’s go into the business of
playing ball. How many games would you play do you think in the space of a week
during the season?”
Oh, if I played one—I never played too many games, I don’t feel like I played too many
games, but I was always in the bullpen. Marty McManus used to let me go to the bullpen
every single night. He use to tell me to go there. Sometimes I would come out and they
would do all right and sometimes they wouldn’t do too good and they would put someone
else in.
Interviewer: “Did you start a lot of games?”
Oh yeah, I started some games and some I stayed in and some I had to come out. 15:57
Interviewer: “You did have a season when you went ten and two.”
Oh that was in fifty-one.
Interviewer: “How did that happen? Did everything just work right for you that
year?”
You know I had a one hitter in that year and Jean [Fout] had pitched a perfect game a day
or two before and I was going for a no hitter and this girl that got the hit—it was the
Texas league and you know what that is, but that team played behind me like they were
shot out of a cannon. They caught everything and stopped everything and threw
everybody out and all that, so it ended up a one hitter and I was so thrilled about it,
besides we had a wonderful, wonderful umpire, Barney Ross, and I was pitching to this
girl who wasn’t the best hitter and he called a strike a ball which meant a lot because we
would not had our chance to get this Texas league, so I walked up to the thing, of course
my catcher was yelling at him and I said, “Barney, I want to tell you something”, and he
said, “yes Lou”, and I said, “You are going blind.” He said, “Lou, I want to tell you
something, you go back to that mound and I’ll show you how blind I’m getting.” 17:14 I
think he gave me a break on a couple of them after that though.
Interviewer: “Now, in this league did you have a regular set of umpires?”
Yea, Gadget Ward and Barney Ross, those are the two I remember because we had them
the most and I can’t remember the ones out of town.
Interviewer: “So, there were umpires that lived near or in South Bend?”
Yes, they were both in South Bend and they were both good umpires, but Gadget, if you
said one thing, “boom”.
6
�Interviewer: “On the whole, do you think the players in your league were better
behaved than say our male baseball players in terms of arguing with the umpire or
challenging them?”
Oh yes, yes they were. Instead of giving certain signals to the crowd if they’re booing or
something, they never—no. 18:11
Interviewer: “Did you feel as if you had to be better behaved than the men?”
No, I don’t think any of us ever gave it a thought. I don’t think any of us ever gave that a
thought. You would be surprised at the women that came out, good living women. We
all wanted to win you know, we’d ride the other team, but I cannot say any bad things
about the women and not because I played with them because I was with the South Bend
Blue Sox and I never went to another team, but we met some gals after and we would go
and have something to eat, which was really against the rules, but the manager kind of
knew you know. 19:02 Maybe we would meet someone after the game and go and have
something to eat, but that’s all.
Interviewer: “Who was the manager while you were there?”
My favorite first manager was Marty McManus, the Red Sox, remember he had the Red
Sox? Then I had Dave Bancroft, then I had Jean Fout’s husband and I can’t think of his
name now, we won with him. Marty McManus, he was a sweetheart, oh, he was so good.
19:38
Interviewer: “Now, did you learn from the manager and from the coaches?”
Oh yeah, oh yeah, learn how lead off on the bases and stuff like that.
Interviewer: “Could they help you with your pitching?”
Oh yea, I had my own—not my own, but we had a pitching coach that worked with us
and I don’t even know his name now, but he was a nice guy.
Interviewer: “Do you know what kind of pitches you could throw?”
Drops and curves and changeups and today I can’t even pick up a pencil, but really it was
a---not I, but some of them would throw a double drop and double—Jean Fout, Jean Fout
to me was the greatest of great. I mean, even if she pitched a game and we had a double
header and someone was running, coach would say, “Jean, go in and play third base”,
that girl never, never said a word, never balked at all and went right in. 20:53
Interviewer: “when you were going good and pitching well in a game, were you
getting people out by changing speed and locations and fooling them, what were you
doing?”
7
�I don’t know, I don’t know what I did, but I had a little skill, but I didn’t have what the
others had and I’m not saying that trying to be nice, it’s true, I really don’t know, but I
was so thankful I was able to stay there.
Interviewer: “You mentioned, you started off by going down to their spring
training. Did you go down to Florida for spring training every year?” 21:32
No, the next year they started having it in South Bend and some of the team went to—
overseas, they went there for a while, I’m sure they told you about that.
Interviewer: “Some went to Cuba.”
Cuba, yes, and I’m glad I didn’t have to go there.
Interviewer: “What kind of fan support did you have? Did you have a lot of fans
coming to the games?”
Wonderful. I remember the first game, I was there and we worked out in the field to start
and we had the skirts on and I can still hear this guy up in the stands say, “Oh look at the
outfits, oh, oh, ladies, ladies”. I think about the third inning he couldn’t believe those
ladies slide and everything and he would come to every game, he was really impressed. I
can still hear him, he would say, “beeeutiful” when we made a nice play “beautiful”. It
had to change him because those women would slide and they come in and we called
them “strawberries” and they would have blood running down their legs and we would
stand in front of it and fan it when we were playing. The chaperones would put
methiolate on it. 22:54 They would wrap it up and they would go right back out and if
they had to slide again, they would slide.
Interviewer: “You were a pitcher and you probably didn’t have to slide much did
you?”
No, all I had to try to do is get to first base and sometimes I did on a walk, I don’t know.
I don’t remember much.
Interviewer: “Now, you were on the team when they won two championships, what
do you remember about Guy Kennedy? How did they do with championship series,
did they have play offs with a lot of teams or the two best teams or what?”
It starts with, I wish I could remember the name of it, but it starts with six teams, then
four teams would play and then it gets down to two and when it gets down to two, that’s
the big challenge and I think it was either three out of five or four out of seven. 23:54
Interviewer: “So it was a real series like a world series.”
Yes, it was a series and I’m trying to think of the name of it, but I can’t.
8
�Interviewer: “Now, one of those championship seasons you played short handed.
Can you explain a little bit why you didn’t have all of your players?”
Well, I really don’t know and you’ll probably hear this story from somebody else, but
this girl was an excellent second baseman—came in and it was close to the ninth inning
and we were leading, I think it was the ninth inning we were leading, and she sat down on
the bench and she took her shoes off. Well, the manager was out there and he saw her
take her shoes off and he said, “hey shorty I want you to run for second base”, and she
said, “take Betty Wagner, she can run as fast as I can”, and he said, “no, no, I said get in
and run”, and she said, “Betty can do it”, like this, he said, “you’re out, you don’t need to
come back”, so when he said that, three or four others said, “if you let her go, I’m going”,
so we ended up with seven, eight or nine players, but we had fifteen all the time to start.
25:18 It was a shame because they were all good ball players and they walked out.
Interviewer: “But you still managed to win the championship.”
Yea, and that was a big deal you know for everybody, that was neat.
Interviewer: “Now, over the time you were playing in South Bend and that’s 19481952, did the crowds eventually start to get smaller?”
In 1952 they started to get smaller because you didn’t have to have the gas tickets
anymore for gas. A lot of them would come in groups or by buses. One of our biggest
games was the fourth of July game and I think we had ten thousand that day and they
were sitting on the grass that went up like this and they were sitting on the grass out
there, but we had a pretty big crowd. 26:15
Interviewer: “You were talking about gas coupons, you mean gas rationing
ended?”
Yea, when gas was rationed and when the war was over they didn’t have to have
rationing and they could drive. A lot of them would come on the bus or they would come
in groups and a lot of them walked.
Interviewer: “do you think that television had something to do with it too? They
could stay home and watch something and not come out and watch you?”
Well I think truthfully, in the end, yes, television. Television didn’t really put us out, but
like you said, there were a lot of things they didn’t do during the war and that’s how the
league started. 27:12 You know, if you talk to the one in Grand Rapids, and a young
man interviewed her, she wrote an article that’s great about the beginning of it and how it
started and stuff.
Interviewer: “That’s why we’re here talking to you because this is part of the
Veterans History Project and we’re talking to people who can tell us about different
aspects of American life during wartime and things that happened because of it.”
9
�That’s what it was and that’s how it started because Wrigley wanted to do something
because so many young men were taken away for war.
Interviewer: “Now at the time that you were recruited to come and join this league,
had you ever heard of the league before? Did you know there were women baseball
players? 27:56
No, I never heard of it and that’s why that man came up to me in Newport and said, “hey
Lou, how would you like to professional baseball?” “Yeah, I’d love it”, kidding with him
and never knowing that man was serious and then he went to three others and I believed
it.
Interviewer: “At the time you joined the league or while you were in it, did you
think of yourselves and doing something maybe that was new for women to be doing
or significant or was it only later maybe?”
I wouldn’t say that any of us did. I don’t care what team it was or ladies in that league
that didn’t love the game and played for the love of the game. It’s something when you
play softball all your life and all of a sudden this baseball comes out, but I think they play
for the love of the game. 28:53 A lot of them, I can tell you when we worked at Bendix,
never, never did we mentioned that we played and when the people found out, lord a
mercy, they were shocked.
Interviewer: “Did they find out about this before or after the movie came out?”
Before the movie came out because they started putting write ups in the paper and that
and they read all the write ups, but by the time I was working—maybe it was after the
movie, I’m not sure.
Interviewer: “When did you retire from Bendix?”
In 1952.
Interviewer: “From Bendix, not from the Blue Sox.”
Well, I went to Bendix in 1952, after the league, after we finished the league. I went to
Bendix on October 6, 1952 because we had a chance of getting in there and then I retired
in 30, 30 and out. 29:56
Interviewer: “So you would have retired then in 1982.”
In 1982.
Interviewer: “Was it while you were still working at Bendix that they began to talk
to you about having played in the league or was it after you retired that they were
all paying attention to you?”
10
�It was after I retired from work. We worked at Bendix quite a while, six of us, maybe
eight and none of us ever mentioned that we played ball. It’s just something—you’re
proud, but I just never said anything.
Interviewer: “Now, when you look back at it now, do you think that maybe you
wound up doing something that was kind of important or that you were some of the
first women professional athletes in professional team sports in this country?”
30:46
You know, because everybody is telling you that—Now, I’m giving you my own
opinion, everybody is saying, do you? I just met a lady now and she said, “You mean
you played professional ball?” She was going to a wedding here and she said, “Oh, I’ve
got to congratulate you”, but I never thought I would see a women’s professional baseball
team and never thought I’d be on one, never and it was really, really exciting, but you
know you have to come home and do your wash and you lived in private homes, but the
people were wonderful to me. 31:28 They would make cookies for us and different
things and chicken.
Interviewer: “When you think back to that time and stuff, are there particular
events or things that happened to you that come back to you that you haven’t told
me about here yet?”
Well, I don’t know if you ever heard of—Oh God, I can’t remember his name—he use to
come to the ball games to the football games in an iron lung—Snite, Fred Snite Jr., his
father’s a multi millionaire and he use to bring Fred Snite to the football games in an
ambulance and they had the doors fixed so when you opened the doors it was all mirrored
so he could see the place. He’s in an iron lung, so we were coming home from Tampa,
after—we were there playing a game after we had our spring training, and this man came
up to our train, our particular train where most of the gals were, and he said, “Is there
anybody in here that sings Irish songs?” 32:35 None of us knew who he was, but the
girls said, “Lou, Lou”, so myself Jo Leonard and Slats Meier, I think, the three of us
went. We were walking through the train, we didn’t know who he was and he said, “My
son, my son would love to sing with you”, and I’m thinking a little kid like this, so we
went back and as we were going through this one train, it was full of oranges and
grapefruits and everything and we got to the last train and the last train had a bay
window, the whole back of it was a bay window and then and they had a railing like this,
it was gold, and there he was in the iron lung. 33:19 There was his wife and two
daughters there and a nurse and I was—I’d never seen anything like that and they said to
stand right beside of him, so I went over and I stood there and I said, “Are we going to
sing some Irish song?”, and he gasped yes because he couldn’t breath and we sang songs
until we were blue in the face. We just sang all the Irish songs we knew and we had a
wonderful time and they came out with cookies and ice cream for us, the people there.
That was an experience I’ll never forget and then his father came up and gave us oranges
and asked us if we wanted oranges or grapefruit. 33:59 That was so touching and so
thrilling and when I’d see him at the game, they would have that backed up and he could
see both teams.
11
�Interviewer: “So, he would come to your games too? You mentioned he went to the
Notre Dame football games.”
No, he could never get that thing in our games.
Interviewer: “But he watched the Notre Dame football games?”
Every—and his father’s got a beautiful building there dedicated to him, beautiful, Fred
Snite Jr.
Interviewer: “How did your own career end? Did you just decide to stop playing in
1952 or did they tell you were about done?”
Oh no, I had an application in for Bendix. Eddie DeLauria, who was the head of the
league for one time, was the manager of our team at one time, he said, “Why don’t you
put your name in for Bendix Lou? I think they’re going to be hiring”, so I went back
home and I got a telegram saying, “come, there’s a job for you at Bendix”, and that’s how
I got into Bendix, by playing ball and that’s another thing I thank god for every night is
Bendix. Very good money, very good insurance. 35:29
Interviewer: “Now, to look back on the whole thing now, how do you think that
whole time playing ball affected you? You told us a little bit about that. Did it
make you a different person? Did it change the course your life took?”
It never changed me a bit sir. I never ever had so many friends. When we had our first
reunion just another ball player, Shirley Stavroff, we’d sit in a chair, not like this chair,
and watch people come in and wonder who it was and we were hugging people we didn’t
even know, we thought it was a ball player. When we had our first—I think it was
sometime in the early eighties, I’m not sure just when it was, but it was in Chicago and it
was just fabulous and we use to wait a couple of years, but now we have them every year.
36:22 I wish I could explain the feeling when you see different ones and they say, “Oh,
Lou you’re getting thin or Lou you’re getting fat”, and stuff like that, but it’s true, I think
you could ask any of them—I feel I could ask any of them if I needed something and I
think they feel they could ask me if they needed something, if I had it or if they had it.
Interviewer: “One other thing that one of the other players had mentioned to me
about you and that was that you had helped some of them just learn some basic
manners and learn how to follow the rules. Could you talk a little bit about that?
What did you do for them?” 37:05
Well I—did you interview Sue Kidd?
Interviewer: “Yes.”
Well, Sue Kidd, I haven’t been down to her home, her father had the grocery store, the
post office and everything right in Arkansas, Choctaw Arkansas, and she came into the
league and she was only a kid and she would walk by or you’d give her something and
she never said please, thank you, excuse me, or anything and I thought, “How strange,
12
�that girl’s so—“, and we got to be pretty good friends and I said to her, “I want to tell you
something, It’s not going to cost you a cent, but I’m going to tell you something and you
better listen to me”, and she would say, “Yeah Lou, yeah Lou”, and I said, “You should
learn some manners because you’re such a nice person and a good person, manners
would really show what kind of a lady you are”. I don’t really work with her, but when
she started coming by me she would say, “Excuse me Lou “ and “thank you Lou”. She
caught on and she’s very, very polite now. 38:14 Very polite and I was being
interviewed someplace on the radio in Grand Rapids I think it was and she was too, the
two of us, So here we were and I got to interviewing and talking to the lady and waiting
for Sue and sue said, “You know, I didn’t even know how to say excuse me”, and I
almost fell off the chair and she said, “That lady there taught me manners”, and I’m
sitting on the chair thinking, “Oh Sue dear, please”, but she has never forgotten that and
she has thanked me at different times and I told her, “I’m proud of you Sue”. She was
just a hick from the sticks. When she said that I thought I would fall out of the chair, but
we’re good friends, very good friends. 39:10
Interviewer. “Well, I knew to ask that because she told me about it, so I thought I
would get your side.”
She said that to you?
Interviewer: “Yes, that’s why I’m asking for your side.”
I almost didn’t tell you to be honest with you. I thought, “I don’t want to mention Sue
like that”.
Interviewer: “Sue’s very grateful that you did it and she put that on record herself,
so that just supports what you had to say about what a good bunch of people this
is.”
Yeah, they were, they were and once and a while we would go over to the boat house ,
boat club I guess and it was right across the river from our ball park and some would play
the slot machine and we’d all jitterbug and have a swell time, but I really feel the
manager knew it, but we always had to get back at a certain time you know. I think he
really knew it, but I don’t know for sure. There were a lot of little things we did do, we
weren’t “holier than thow” you know like picking up the gals at the hotel so they could
come to the boat club and dance or have a few beers or something you know. There
really wasn’t much drinking in the league. Not much that I know of, of course the team I
was on there wasn’t. Let me see if there’s any other interesting—It was just—like now,
not because I’m being interviewed, I don’t care if you don’t ever have to use it, to be
honest with you that isn’t the point. I think it’s nice of you to ask me and it was nice of
Dolly to tell you to ask me, but really makes me feel good to tell you what a wonderful
league it was and it’s still a league to all of us you know. 41:06
Interviewer: “We’ve spent a fair amount of time with your group here just this
week doing quite a few interviews and we have to agree with you that it really is a
13
�remarkable bunch of people, so I would like to thank you for taking a little time
today to come and tell me about it.”
Well, thank you for asking me, but I’m telling you and you found out for yourself, some
of them are great, great people. 41:30
Interviewer: “that’s right.”
14
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-58_LArnold
Title
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Arnold, Lou (Interview transcript and video), 2009
Creator
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Arnold, Lou
Description
An account of the resource
Lou Arnold was born in Pawtucket, Rhode Island in 1925. She grew up in Pawtucket and played softball with her brother and eventually joined an amateur league where she played for a few teams. After playing a game with a rival team in Newport she was invited to play for the All American League. Arnold played from 1948 to 1952 for the South Bend Blue Sox as a pitcher. One of her baseball highlights came during the 1951 season when she pitched a ten and two record and led her team to the championship that year.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Indiana
Women
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-09-25
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/87f9f709762b06e5b8c39f0fb8487e7e.mp4
1abcbc02dd4ca54e5711968b8b535dfa
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f8a7c7451ee4fe9215968d2234e1bea9.pdf
8eab3cbbe6004f009ad1fd5aee69e96d
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Jacqueline Baumgart
Length of Interview: (01:28:17)
Interviewed by: Frank Boring, Grand Valley State University Veterans History Project
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer February 20, 2010
Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like?”
Hard.
Interviewer: “In what way?”
It was very hard. We were eight and I was the youngest of eight and I did not have a
father, so the whole time during the depression was very, very difficult.
Interviewer: “What did your mother do to support you?”
She did washing clothes, ironing clothes, house cleaning. That’s what she knew how to
do and in those days—women, that’s pretty much what they did with a fifth grade
education.
Interviewer: “What was school like before high school?” 1:38
Before high school, I got into trouble a lot because I wanted to play ball and I wanted to
kick the ball and play ball and do what all the boys were doing. I grew up with boys,
brothers, and so I tagged along, a few feet behind, but I tagged along. We played a lot of
softball and scrub games and that’s how I learned how to play and whenever they didn’t
have enough players, they let me play. 2:17 I was little, I was very, very little and
when they let me play, they put me in the outfield because they didn’t have to shag the
ball and then I learned how to throw very long and hard because I was throwing the ball
back in and that’s how I really learned how. By playing with the boys, it gave me an
opportunity to develop physically, because, like I said, I was very, very small. 2:57
Interviewer: “The town you grew up in, was it a very big town or was it a small
town?”
It was a small town. Waukegan is located between Milwaukee and Chicago and very
near there was the Great Lakes Training Center and not too far from there was Fort
Sheridan and so, it was just a small town and in fact very close to Kenosha, where I
wound up playing and about the same size. 3:30
Interviewer: “How about high school, how was high school for you?”
High school was very, very interesting. I moved to Milwaukee in March of 1942.
1
�Interviewer: “Your whole family?”
No, I had a sister living in Milwaukee and two of my brothers went into the service and
mother had received a widow’s pension and that kind of decreased a little bit when they
went into service, so I moved to Milwaukee to live with a sister and from there, which
was a great thing because that helped me develop differently than what I would have in
Waukegan. I had playgrounds to play on. 4:16 You couldn’t play in the schools in
competition, but we could play on the playgrounds in the summer and I fortunately—the
alley behind the house had a common fence, with the alley and the playground and so
when my sister asked me to take the garbage out, I said “sure”, because I took the
garbage out and I was gone. That’s how I started and there were two gentlemen that had
worked with the Milwaukee recreation department and the playgrounds had directors and
one was Bunny Brief and one was Jack Chlossa, both professional ball players, because
we were going from playground to playground, and they said, “I think we’ll take you out
to West Allis”, which is a suburb, because they had a fast pitch softball league there.
They took me out there and I got on the team right away—
Interviewer: “Now by team—is this a girls team?” 5:25
A girls team. I finally found that I was good at something, because you don’t know,
you’re always playing with the boys and it’s a different kind of competition when you do
that. The boys say that you are only a girl and I had to live through that and that develops
a certain kind of tenacity in you and so when I went to West Allis, they had about eight
softball teams, fast pitch, and the first year that I was there, we won the state
championship. My mother came into town and it was the first and only game that she
saw was winning, winning my first championship. 6:17 One to nothing on a balk.
That’s the kind of close competitive games that I was learning all the while.
Interviewer: “Now, after the game, what did your mother have to say?”
Not too much, she really—it was indifferent to her, she didn’t really know anything about
sports, particularly women playing sport, and she just thought it was nice, everybody
treated me nice, so that was her main important thought. She didn’t live with us in
Milwaukee; she went back to Waukegan and was living there. 7:01
Interviewer: “What position were you playing by this time?”
A catcher.
Interviewer: “Were you always a catcher?”
No, I was always everything and that’s how I grew up, to play every position. I played
every position and I actually became a catcher during the wintertime when we were
playing inside a gym with a different kind of ball—it was a little bit larger ball than a
softball, it had an out seam to it and a little softer, I mean it wasn’t had at all and I was
just playing in the outfield, but they all knew that I wanted to play and that I could play
2
�anywhere. At one point a pitcher wasn’t doing too good, so the catcher became the
pitcher and then they said, “Well, who wants to catch?” All eyes came this was, I mean I
didn’t have to say much of anything, so I went into catch, well, I dropped the first foul
ball, “tip’ you know, and I realized that I had to keep my eyes open because you flinch
and that’s an automatic response and I said, “I have to keep my eyes open”. 8:20 By the
end of the game there was a foul ball and I caught it and from then on, I was a catcher.
Those are the kinds of things that happen that lead you in a direction. Coming to
Milwaukee, doing something like that as a catcher, staying a catcher, going out to West
Allis, being pointed the way; it has an awful lot of importance for my development. 8:49
Interviewer: “Now how old were you at this time? This was still high school?”
I was in—yes; I was about fifteen and a half, sixteen, something like that.
Interviewer: “So you’re going to high school, you’re playing ball with this group?
What happened next? Did you graduate from high school?”
I graduated from high school and then I was working and playing out in WestAllis,
softball, and we began to start playing baseball and we were playing in West Milwaukee,
which is between West Milwaukee and West Allis in terms of property lines and during
that time I was scouted for the All American Girls Baseball League. 9:54
Interviewer: “Did you know anything about this group prior to that?”
I knew a little bit because some had started to come back from playing professional ball
and we had to wait a year or two before you could play amateur again. I knew that they
had played and I knew that Milwaukee had had a team. I became a knotholer because we
didn’t have any money, nobody had any money and I was a catcher and another lady,
Edna Shear, lived in Cedarburg another suburb and we both were scouted. I didn’t know,
we didn’t know we were scouted and I got a card in the wintertime, close to winter, and it
said to go to someplace in Pennsylvania or Newark, New Jersey. 10:53 I didn’t know
that Edna had received a card and her card said Chicago was where she was supposed to
go. Well, I wanted to play, so I borrowed some money, took a train and went to Newark,
New Jersey all by myself and my world wasn’t any larger than from Waukegan to
Milwaukee, which is about forty-five minutes away. 11:22
Interviewer: “Now, just previous to that, you’re still living with your sister.”
Yes.
Interviewer: “So, did you talk it over with her at all? Did you have anybody that
you talked about going to New Jersey?”
No, I just went. I borrowed money from a sister that was living in Waukegan and she
was married to a dentist, so I figured they had a little bit of money and sure enough it was
either fifty or sixty dollars that I borrowed. To go. 11:51
3
�Interviewer: “So you arrive in New Jersey, what was your first impression of New
Jersey?”
Big, huge—where do I put my foot next? Sounds are so different, very, very different.
Speaking the English language was different—in “New Joyzee” you know, that was a
little bit different, but I was met at the train by I think it was three, of the ball players and
they were part of the recruiting and all of that. They took me to a gym, an inside gym,
just like the movie and I tried out, I had my glove, a catche’rs glove, and we went up
against the wall and then we went one by one and there was a black lady sitting next to
me and she didn’t have a glove, so she asked if she could use my glove and I said, “ yes,
but it’s a catchers glove”, and she said, “that’s ok”, so she went and she came back and I
went and the three of them took me out to dinner after that because I was staying in a
private home. 13:17
Interviewer: “The three originals that picked you up at the railroad station?”
Yes. They were the only contacts that I had. They asked me, “was that your glove or her
glove?” I said, “it was my glove”, and then they said, “Oh, we don’t do that”. That
was my first introduction into how people felt about other people, because where I grew
up in Waukegan, we were pretty much a mixed group and for me there wasn’t any kind
of distinction when you were going to play ball or whatever, so that was very upsetting
for me. 14:05
Interviewer: “In that particular gym, you mentioned yourself and then there was a
black woman there too, were there other women there trying out? About how
many?”
There were probably twelve to fifteen or something like that.
Interviewer: “But there was actually one black woman in there?”
Yes, one black woman.
Interviewer: “Wow, do you know what ever happened to her?”
No.
Interviewer: “After you had the dinner with the three, you went back to the host
home and you stayed overnight, what happened next?”
I just went to the train again and came back. One of the things that I just very well
remember was going through the oil city in Pennsylvania—you could smell it—it’s a
whole new smell, everything was so new and so different. 15:05 When you’re by
yourself, you learn how to—what to accept and what not too. I’m a survivor of a lot of
things and was attuned to a lot of things going on and very much a real experience. For
one to grow up at that age, very impressionable and I take everything in, like you learn
how to steal second or something.
4
�Interviewer: “Once you got back home to Milwaukee, was there another
communication of some kind?” 15:57
Yes, before spring training I got another card and it said to go to South Bend, Indiana and
I met about sixty girls there and we had a spring training. Spring training wasn’t easy it
was very hard.
Interviewer: “Tell us, first of all keep in mind, you were there and we weren’t, so I
kind of want to visualize your arriving there were sixty girls there. Give us—take us
there to spring training.” 16:29
Spring training—early in the morning and we would go until noon, we had a light lunch
and only because I was thin, if they had a little extra couple of cups of ice cream they
would say, “here you need this”, and we had a little bit of rest period because we ate and
then it was all afternoon again until four o’clock, we never let up. We didn’t play an
actual game, but it was like an infield practice. You went to a position or you said you
wanted to go and you played that however the manager wanted it to go, because it wasn’t
a game, it was—he was almost actually teaching us. He wanted to know what we really
knew and how we would think and respond to the ball and other players and to managing,
how we would respond to directions. 17:40 After that I was told to go to Racine to meet
up with Rockford.
Interviewer: “So, at spring training—I know a lot of these answers, but I still want
to get it for the record. The spring training, you did not have a team yet, you were
not on a team yet?”
Not yet, no.
Interviewer: “So the girls were all playing different positions to see which ones they
could play well or not well and then a decision was made as to what team you’re
going to play on?”
Right.
Interviewer: “What were you wearing during spring training?” 18:10
Just jeans and shorts depending on how warm it was.
Interviewer: “But it wasn’t uniforms, just whatever you brought to play is what
you wore?”
Right.
Interviewer: “So the spring training was completed and they let you know that you
were now a?”
I went to Rockford—actually Rockford was in Racine and so that’s where I went and I
was there for a week and I was under the tutelage of Bill Allington, I learned more from
him in one week than I did in all the time before. As we look back at it now it has to do
with—we came with the skills and the professional men managers helped us become
5
�professionals. A lot of little things that you never think of, if you get into bad habits
naturally in terms of batting and throwing. 19:14
Interviewer: “Give me an example of maybe one of the ones that you learned. You
say that you learned more in that week, well, give me an idea, what did you learn?”
One in particular, because I was a catcher and we would have an infield practice and all
of a sudden he threw the ball down on the ground and I took that to be a bunt, which it
was, so I hopped right after it I picked it up and I went like this and then I let it go and he
did it again and I did the same thing and he said, “now what did you do that for?” I said,
“What do you mean?” He said, “you put your hand into the glove and then you throw the
ball. That runner has got a whole step and a half on you.” You don’t think about those
things when you’re just playing and learning a little bit, just a natural by osmosis thinking
The managers we had playing fast pitch were good managers, but they weren’t teaching
us anything. 20:18 They just taught us about some things as the game moved along.
You really weren’t learning like we learned in the professional league and of course I
listened. I did that all my life was to watch and listen and from that I learned an awful
lot. Now the other thing was in hitting, I stood too far in the back and he said, “you got
to move up a little bit and choke up a little bit. You got to be brave and go all the way
down to the bottom of the bat. Just choke up a little bit because then you have more
balance at the end of the bat. We have to learn to hit and bat according to our bodies
what we can do and what we can’t do it isn’t all show. If you want to play, you play, you
don’t act up.” 21:18
Interviewer: “Good advice”
It is and he didn’t mean it in the sense of show off, he meant it in the sense of getting out
of bad habits.
Interviewer: “Let me ask you a question and this may sound like an unfair question
and you don’t have an answer for it, but he’s a professional male baseball player
and he’s working with you as a very young girl. Did you get any sense that he was
treating you like a girl or treating you like a baseball player?”
Like a baseball player, because he knew his positions as a manager and what it probably
might have been like for him when he started out being a professional. It’s a transitional
period and he knew how to do that. He also knew that you had to learn not only how to
play, but the intricacies of the game, the whole game, the whole thing, whether you were
catcher or first baseman, pitcher or an outfielder, you learned it all, everything that’s
going on because three things, 1 is the ball, naturally, there is no play without the ball, 2nd
is accuracy, if you’re going to play, you don’t just throw, you concentrate, not too hard,
but you concentrate on where you’re going to throw that ball and the 3rd one is to think
where you’re going to throw that ball, when are you going to throw the ball and to be
ready to receive. 23:02 For him those were the three most important things. They are
very, very basic, they don’t get anymore basic than that, and it will take you a long way.
The other thing he pointed out was that you are on the field playing and the manager is
watching all of this and the manager doesn’t miss a trick and so if you think you’re going
6
�to fluff off, it doesn’t work because the manager sees what you are doing and those are
some of the little things that make you a professional ball player. 23:51
Interviewer: “Once the spring training was over with and you were chosen to be on
the team, what was the process of getting your uniform and do you remember what
it was like to see your uniform for the first time?”
After that I was sent to Chicago, excuse me, the northern part of Chicago, and most of the
girls I met in South Bend were there. They were choosing thirty girls to make up two
teams, so that means that there are fifteen players on a team, that’s all we had. I was
chosen as a Springfield Sally and only because we had the uniforms. They tried a team in
Springfield and it didn’t work and the other team was called the Chicago Colleens
because Chicago had a professional team. It wasn’t baseball, it was fast pitch softball
and they set-up a perimeter and around that perimeter, we couldn’t play anywhere near
there because it was an infringement, so they put us on a bus, thirty of us girls, the two
women chaperones managers, a man manager, sometimes the business manager, and sent
us all east of the Mississippi and into Canada. 25:28 I probably was one of the older
ones and another Cuban girl was, I think, about twenty-four. I think I was going on
twenty-one or something like that, but the others were all younger. What it was—it was a
traveling team to gain experience playing professional baseball. In the towns that we
played, they had charities that they gave money to and then to have tryouts. Every time
we went someplace, there were tryouts and when we came back to Cleveland, I think it
was, we just went home. 26:26
Interviewer: “So it was two teams of fifteen, traveling and playing each other?”
Yes.
Everyplace you were just playing each other, playing each other. You were actually
getting back on the bus together, so you had the camaraderie of being on a team, but
you would separate out and play each other?”
Yes. That’s a learning process, a growing process because we were from all over the
United States and Cuba. The whole experience is more than an experience. That’s how I
look at it, it became a way of life because you ate baseball and played baseball, slept
baseball, we went from one town to the next town and very seldom were we two nights in
the same town. 27:30 We never read the write-ups you know.
Interviewer: “Give me an idea, I know this might sound dull, but what’s the
routine? You get up in the morning, you get on the bus, you go—walk us through a
typical day when you go on one of those excursions and how it was.”
Well, you know it depended on how late we got in from one town to the other, especially
going in and through the mountains. Sometimes we would be like six in the morning
coming in, so we went to bed. I went to bed early because I needed my eight hours. We
would get up, we ate together in different restaurants and places and we then would rest
because we couldn’t eat sooner than two hours before we were going to play, so that was
kind of a restful time, lounging time, and that was a time when we weren’t in close
proximities in what we were doing and we maybe went to a movie or something and
7
�chose different things. 28:53 We would then get dressed and ready to go onto the bus
and the bus would take us to the ball park and then we would work out and I mean work
out, and then play a game and shower, find a place to eat, travel, depending on how far
we had to go, and the next day the same thing. 29:20 There was sometimes a little long
time in a city depending on how far it was and what time was and how long it took to get
there. We still had to take care of our own clothes.
Interviewer: “Wash your own clothes and stuff, wow.”
We would go to a Laundromat, but not the uniform.
Interviewer: “How did the uniform get cleaned?”
I don’t know--the managers took care of that. They took it to a Laundromat or where
ever they could. 29:50
Interviewer: “What were the fans like?”
Very good. In the towns that we were in, they had either a double A or a triple A team
and the diamonds that we played on were good, which was a nice thing.
Interviewer: “You were obviously getting locals that came out to see the teams. Did
you have a lot of girls, women or men or was it more mixed?”
It was mixed, more men than what they might have now because it wasn’t as popular and
we were sort of an entertainment or a show of some kind and people wanted to see what
we were all about. There was advance publicity and quite often we had more fans then
the home team that played there because we were playing when they were out of town.
30:55 We would hear that and when we made a good play we were rewarded with—it
was like a whole surprise for them to see that because we were very good and we came
with the skills and we were naturals. We also exhibited the joy that we had in playing
even though we played the same team all the time; we were still growing and learning.
31:30
Interviewer: “The two teams were they exactly the same or did you switch over and
play catcher for one and then play catcher for another or was it always the same
group playing against the same team?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “That makes sense, so once that was over with and you went back to
Milwaukee, then what happened? What was the next stop in all of this?”
I got a card. I got another card because all thirty of us were put in the “pot” so to speak
and the teams told—this one and that one, and I was asked to go to Kalamazoo,
Michigan, so I want to spring training there and Kenosha didn’t have a catcher at that
time, so I was catching for Kenosha even though I belonged to Kalamazoo and after
spring training Kenosha bought my contract, whatever that was, because when I signed
the contract it was blank. You never knew what you were getting or anything else, you
just signed the contract and you were going to play ball. 32:39
8
�Interviewer: “Now if you’re playing for two different teams, what was the
uniform?”
The same uniform except in a sense it was Kalamazoo and I’m trying to remember that
part of it because I don’t remember it being any different. When I went to Kenosha, I had
their regular uniform.
Interviewer: “Now, on the touring team with the thirty of you, you were already a
professional baseball player, but now with the new team, this is now the American—
the league, so this is different, did you have any sense of going from this to this or
were you just going to keep playing baseball?” 33:45
There was a little bit of that yes, because you’re coming into an already—a team that is in
place, so there’s a lot of difference coming to a team than what we did, because we were
all new to each other in terms of what we were going to do and this team was already in
place. They already had their own ways of what they were doing and who they get along
with, where they go and now we have a home place and then we have on the road, so
your monies are different, you take care of your own stuff when you’re at home and on
the road you get a per dium I call it. 34:35 We all got pretty much the same for that.
Interviewer: “Well, as the newcomer into this team, how did you get along?”
Quietly. Quietly in a sense of interaction. More quiet—you have a different manager,
everybody has their own style, how they do things and I had to learn all that. It wasn’t
too hard to learn it, but you had to learn the differences. Some managers manage a lot
and some managers manage a little and they kind of let you play. It was about the same
thing with the players because they’re older, not much, but they had been playing, so they
have a couple of years under their belt and you’re a “rookie”, you’re a “rookie”. I still
had to carry the bats and things. From my own growing up and my formative years, I
learned how to understand where my place is wherever I am and whomever I’m with.
36:11 That part wasn’t too hard, I could read that and I knew that because I’m a
survivor. You do make friends in the sense of hanging with some more than you do
others and I think there were three or four “rookies” on the team in Kenosha, so we kind
of hung together for a while.
Interviewer: “Was there a point and I know this is kind of a difficult question
because it’s so specific, you’re a “rookie”, was there a moment, was there a period of
time when you felt like you were no longer a “rookie” and whatever you were doing
the went, “oh, she’s good”? 37:05
I got a hit—see, I was a straight away hitter, I wasn’t a long distance hitter, partly
because of my weight and you’re the catcher so you bat eighth and I smacked one over
the second baseman’s head, because we were playing baseball rules now, we’re a bigger
diamond, we’re not on the softball diamond and I got to first base and I said, “It’s about
time”, and I remember it so distinctly and it’s a great, great feeling to do that. I didn’t
9
�throw anybody out at second, but I was pretty close a couple of times and that is a great
moral builder for me anyway. 38:00
Interviewer: “You felt different, but did you notice a difference also from the other
players that you were treated a little bit differently?”
Sure, because we’re a team and that’s how you become a team is learning to play
together and giving lots of kudos when they’re necessary and I never experienced any
player getting down on a another player like, “what did you do that for?” You were the
one that made the mistake, so there was none of that and most managers wouldn’t allow
that. We learned how to be a team by practice and you practiced as hard as you played,
you didn’t sluff-off. 39:04 For me as a catcher, one of the most marvelous things that
can happen and the joy really comes out, is when we have infield practice and you
“around the horn” as we called it, after a certain ply and then you “zip” to first, second,
third, back, back down to second for the shortstop and over to first or the opposite,
because when we played we ‘zipped” the ball, we didn’t just throw, we “zipped” it.
39:37
Interviewer: “Now by this time the charm school and all that had been over with or
did you have to do that too?”
No, I didn’t have to do that.
Interviewer: “You knew about it or you heard about it though?”
Yes, I heard a lot bout it.
Interviewer: “What do you mean, you heard a lot about it?”
Well, they would tell little stories about having to walk down steps with a book on your
head and they thought how ridiculous. Well, how do you walk down the steps with a
book on your head and a “Charlie horse”? It’s bad enough with just the book on your
head. If you had a sore leg or something then—and the next time you walk down steps
what are you looking at? You look down like this and you can’t keep a book on your
head when you do that. That usually pretty much what they talked about and the
etiquette part. They didn’t like—I eat like I eat like I eat and there were a lot of jokes
about different things and we took it all in and it’s a part of the camaraderie, we had great
camaraderie and we still do. 41:00
Interviewer: “Tell me about strawberries.”
I didn’t do too much sliding because of my position in the batting order, but I did have
some when I got on, they weren’t really strawberries, they were more or less things
that—you know when somebody’s coming into home and sliding in home, we didn’t go
head first, we had hook slides, so you had to—I learned from Mr. Allington, I learned
because I was—I didn’t want to get bowled over, so what he taught me was to give him
just a little corner and to turn sideways so that I don’t have the full force and you turn
sideways because then you’re in a position to move your legs and go wherever you need
to go after the ball, but there still were collisions and things like that because you don’t
10
�know where the balls coming from when you begin and I did get knocked over one time
in pro, but it was just the nature of the game. 42:38 Very much how the play happened,
developed and happened. There was nothing like foul play or anything like that; we
purposely didn’t do those things.
Interviewer: “What did you think of the uniform?”
I’ll have to tell you, the first time I put that uniform on, I cried because what flooded in
my mind was of this little kid at home playing with the boys and here I am—I get teary
eyed just thinking about it because it was never a dream to become a professional ball
player, the dream was to survive, the dream was to do the best you can in whatever you
do—lit was like winning a game, when you win—oh, that’s great. This was my own
kind of winning and I kind of stood there for a little bit after I was dressed and I said,
“Ah, this is it, this is it”, and I never forgot that. 44:07
Interviewer: “So the actual design and all that didn’t bother you?”
It did to some degree; it did all of us to some degree because we never played in a skirt
fashion. It was all one piece, but it was a skirt on the bottom, there were no legs to go
into, but you had to learn how to play with it, especially some of the pitchers when they
would begin throwing side arm, it just gets in the way, so each one developed a way in
which to fix their uniform either by shortening it a little bit. I had two tucks here and two
tucks in the back so that it would fit comfortably. 45:04 They weren’t tight fitting at all
because we didn’t like that and we didn’t want that at all. It was heavy, it was like heavy
denim and very warm in the summer, in the hot summer, it was very, very warm.
Interviewer: “You had talked about the fan of the traveling team, can you recall the
fans of the team when you went pro?” 45:34
Yes, because there were fans that came all the time and there were some fans that came
once in a while and some of the fans treated some of the ball players very well. A little
money under the table or whatever, invited over to their houses for picnics and stuff like
that if time provided for that, but we didn’t have too much time for that, but they were
very, very good to us. The regulars were very good to us. 46:16
Interviewer: “You mentioned earlier about the traveling team, that it was a mixture
of men and women and things, the professional team you played for, where the fans,
the majority of them, men or women or what?”
A few more women because we were in one place and they get to know you and they
have favorites like any team does have favorites and we played excellent baseball. We
weren’t just entertainment as we were in the beginning, we still were, but not to the
extent, we did what the Brewers do today, but not to that extent. 47:13
Interviewer: “I understand what you’re saying. I think it is really important what
you are saying, that you were still entertainment, but now you’re baseball players
11
�and their watching it for the baseball, professional baseball. In your first season
you told about that one time that you whacked that ball out there, were there any
other particular ones that you can recall that really stick out either on your end or
what you saw?” 47:37
It had to do with the pitchers because I was little. I remember Jeanie Marlow in Kenosha,
she had a screwball, it’s opposite of a curve and they don’t throw it very often, so anyway
about the third batter, it was early in the season and a new team came in and I don’t even
know who the team was, so I gave her the number one sign because that’s a fast ball and
just plain ball and she shook it off and I was wondering what was going on, so I knew she
didn’t want a curve, so I gave her number two and she shook it off and I gave her the
change up and she shook it off and I gave her the screw ball and I just went through the
whole thing and she kept shaking it off, so I called time and I went to see her and I said,
“can you see the signs?” 48:45 She said, “oh yea, I can see the signs ok”, and I said, “can
you see me ok?” We’re starting to loosen up and josh one another and I said, “what’s the
problem?” She said, “Oh, I just wanted to confuse the batter”. Those are the moments of
the different little things that one does in a professional league. Now that might not have
happened with another pitcher, with another pitcher it might be something else or I might
get a sign from a pitcher instead of me giving a sign to the pitcher. That didn’t happen
very often though. 49:33
Interviewer: “When was it, maybe in your first season, or was it later, that you
started to think that maybe this was going to be your career or did you even think
that?”
I never thought it; I was just doing what I loved to do. I just never thought of it. I came
back to Milwaukee and I had to work. I did a little bit of coaching with some younger
kids and played a little bit of slow pitch baseball.
Interviewer: “There’s no comparison.”
No, heavens no there isn’t, but that’s what was going on at that time and that went on to
become a pretty popular thing, so I was staying in the activity of the game and then I got
married and raised children. It isn’t that I didn’t think about playing professional ball,
but we never talked about it. Bob knew when I married him, but we didn’t talk and I
think that if you ask that question to everyone of us they would say the same thing.
50:53 We just went about our business, it was grand, beautiful and we didn’t have that
sense that we were setting standards or overcoming barriers, we just did it. You really
didn’t know the historical impact on things until much later and my three boys—I had a
ten inch ball that was signed by the teams and it was upstairs, so they used the ball and
used my glove, they couldn’t use my shoes of course, and I said, “oh, you can’t use that
ball, can’t you see those signatures on there? That’s when I played professional”, and
they said, “oh yea mom”. 51:50 Well, that was the opening of saying a little bit about
what I did and I said, “well, I played professional ball”, and they said, “yea, yea”, you
know how boys are, but they do know now and they’re very proud of that and they relay
that to other people very easily if we’re out in a group of some kind. One of them will
12
�say, “oh my mom played pro”, and I say, “here we go”. My husband did a lot of that, but
I didn’t do it. I’m learning how a little bit and I pick my times if it’s called for, then I
might. 52:55 I don’t just advertise it and I do give a lot of talks to different groups, very
different kinds of groups and they love to hear about it and that’s a whole new experience
for us again. When you do that you learn the impact of what we did and the style that we
did that. 53:33
Interviewer: “I want to get back to the—you’ve gone through your first season now
ok? How many seasons did you actually play with that team? You were with
Kenosha right? How long did you play with them?”
It was two, one season with them and one season before that. Kenosha in 1951 dropped
out of the league.
Interviewer: “Where did you go from there?”
To work.
Interviewer: “You didn’t play again?”
I didn’t play again. 54:02 It folded, it was terrible and I thought the whole league was
folding, but we went until 1954, but it was absolutely terrible.
Interviewer: “I guess and I don’t want to go somewhere that you don’t want to go,
but what caught me by surprise was that for some reason I thought after Kenosha
you went on to play for another baseball team. Why not?”
Because the Racine Belles were already out and you had less teams and you don’t need
that many ball players and I couldn’t wait, I had to go to work and send money home and
stuff like that and I just—it’s over. One has to understand how the move from one thing
to another because I did a lot of moving in my life and I learned how to accept something
and just move on. 55:20
Interviewer: “Did you see the end coming to the league? You said that in 1951 you
out.”
A little bit within our own team and near the end we weren’t sure we were going to get
paid and that sort of thing and then sometimes the chaperone became the manager and
that sort of thing. By that time there wasn’t an over arching league ownership, by that
time each team had to take care of themselves and I think that was in 1948 or something
like that. Looking back on it, it was pretty much the access and it was going to end and
there was some talk about it. 56:17
Interviewer: “You said that you went back to work and you said that very quickly
and how difficult was it when it ended? It’s over, it’s ended and you’re going back
to work now, what was your reaction?”
13
�You go kick stones, walk the beach and mull things over and cry a little, but one is
quickly drawn into a different kind of life style. You can’t stay there very long—I had to
go on and put bread in the mouth so to speak. We did have some contact with other ball
players and we’re all commiserating about the loss, our joy, our inner joy, play and just
learned how to accept it with clenched teeth. 57:36
Interviewer: “I don’t know about you, but for me it really hit me hard because in a
sense when you talk about going to slow pitch, that’s a huge drop and that had to be
hard to do. I never played professional baseball, but I went through a transition
and from playing to doing slow pitch I just went, “huh, what is this?”
What it does—that’s part of the transition and it wasn’t what it was called and what we
were doing, we were playing. We had the activity, this little child here was out doing
something—playing whatever she could play and the joy of the activity and the
movement of the body and being able to give expression to the body and I was still able
to do that and then I could coach some of that. That’s small little transitions that you
don’t know are happening, but they are you could still throw the ball, you could still bat
the ball and I could still throw and I’ve never had a sore arm because you take care of
yourself and when I throw, I use my body along with it, I’m not just all arm and that’s a
thrill. 59:09 It is a thrill to throw the ball because the whole sense of the body is active
and that’s what helped me to stop kicking stones.
Interviewer: “I’m going to ask you a personal question and if you don’t want to
answer it, please don’t, but you mentioned earlier that you told your husband Bob
about being a ball player. How did you two meet and did he know you were a ball
player? Is there a connection there?”
He didn’t know. A fellow came to work where I was working that had worked where he
was, at a company that he worked at for thirty six years, and he played golf, they had
their own golf team, and Paul and I had already made arrangements to go golfing on
Thursday with his wife and they golfed on Wednesday, so he came to work the next day
and said, “Do you mind of somebody else comes along to make a foursome? :12 I said,
“that’s fine”, so I left work and went home and changed my clothes and met him on the
golf course and went to Paul’s house afterwards and had a light lunch and then he was on
vacation someplace and about two or three weeks later Paul comes to me and said, “could
I give him your phone number?” I said, “is that Bob?” And he said it was and I said,
“ok” because I had to know who it was and I made my own decisions around those
things. 1:02 On our first date we went to a Packer game, a Packer game here in
Milwaukee at the old Marquette Stadium and it was a kind of foggy, rainy night, but the
Packers won, it was that Bishops game, and then we met Paul and Fran downtown and
we had dinner and danced and all of that. We went together pretty well after that and that
was in August and I was engaged in October and married in January. All from meeting
on the golf course. 1:52
Interviewer: “When did you tell him about being a baseball player?”
14
�I don’t really remember, but not too long after that because he knew that I was interested
in sports and he played softball and I think he got the idea that to get to me we had to
participate in sports and I think it just kind of came out in natural conversation.
Interviewer: “In the earlier conversation we were having, you said that he liked to
talk about the fact that you were playing baseball.”
Yes, because I wouldn’t and he was proud of that and most of the players, when they left,
didn’t talk about it much. If they did any talking, they did it with each other if they were
in contact with one another. 2:57
Interviewer: “I’m so pleased to hear your boys and that they seemed to like the fact
that mom played baseball professionally too.”
They have come a long way with that. They were very young and I taught them a lot of
things. I think they gradually came to understand that I knew something because I was
teaching them. They played a little ball, but they liked swimming and auto mechanics
and all that sort of stuff and I learned then what was happening to me when I was little. I
wanted to do what I wanted to do and each individual boy does, they’re all mechanics
and machinists, but they’ve learned to be their own person and they are very different.
3:48
Interviewer: “This is going to be a tougher question digging into your memory, but
when did you first start and I don’t need a date or anything, but when did you first
start realizing, after the fact, what you had participated in, enjoyed so much, was
very proud of, but still didn’t talk a whole lot about, other people were starting to
go, “Hey, did you know about that?” When did you first realize that you guys
participated in something that you didn’t think was very important at the time, but
a lot of other people were?”
4:27
See I, because I had a married name, they didn’t catch up with me for a while and so
when I found out that we were in the Hall of Fame.
Interviewer: “You didn’t know?”
I didn’t know. I was at a house with Marge Peters, who had played before me in 1944,
and she didn’t know that I had played because I was in 1950 and 1951, so they were
always looking for different ones and a group of us were together at her house and there
was a long hallway and there was her wall of honor and my picture was up there and so
she told me and she showed me the video from Cooperstown. 5:16 Well, I’ll tell you, I
beat my chest. I just beat my chest because “this little one”, which I was called, did
something, I said, “I wish my mother was here now” because she really didn’t approve,
but she knew that I needed to do those things and we finally agreed to that. 6:06 I think
that when you do what you really love to do that it is a gift and when we exercise and
grow out of our gifts, that’s where we go in life and there’s a different joy in learning that
than there is the playing. The joy is monumentus, it’s like “this little kid did it” you
15
�know because I had to prove myself all the time. 6:52 All the time I was proving myself
to myself as well and there isn’t anything better than proving yourself to yourself. It
gives momentum to what you do and there’s opportunity then to share that. We now
share that with each other. We still can come to reunions and meet somebody you
haven’t met before, but you know that they’ve played and we share the same thing, all the
ups and downs, ins and outs, hurts and bruises and strawberries and stories. 7:39 We
begin to tell our own stories within our group.
Interviewer: “You said something earlier about not talking about it, the fact that
your husband was very proud of you and did more talking about it than you,
because you wouldn’t, your kids finally got to the point of realizing it. Why do you
want to talk about it now?” 8:04
It’s valuable. It’s history. If we don’t tell our stories there’s no history to anything if the
stories aren’t told and when I give talks, I say that to the mothers, I tell the mothers that
they have to support their child in what the child likes to do—they may change their mind
in two weeks and they need to tall their story and the grand parents need to love them to
pieces because those are the important things for a child when they’re growing up. 8:55
As I said before, it was very difficult growing up, but all of that is who I am and when I
began to recognize that playing baseball was a very important part of my living and
growing up and who I am and we need to share that with everybody and anybody who
wants to know or will listen and that’s important for the other person also. 9:27
Interviewer: “I have two last questions for you. One you answered in part
throughout, so I’m just going to ask you this: How did the experience of baseball,
pro baseball affect you as a person and how you became the person you are today?”
Learning how to get along really. In college I’m a broad field social science major
educated in secondary education and I was broad field because of all the things that I was
learning, because when you meet at a very young age somebody from New Jersey and
somebody from the south, Atlanta or whatever, Cuba, Canada, each one of us teach each
other who they are and we begin to look at that and recognize that broadens our horizons
of how we view our world. 10:37 The capability then of interacting with people in a
situation no matter where we are. I often say in my talks that we were taught how to be
professional people on the field and off the field very much so.
Interviewer: “You talked earlier also using the word history and as you know, we
have Dr. Smither here in the history department at Grand Valley State University
and I’m a documentary film maker, so I’m going to ask you this very specific
question. Where do you think the All American Girls Professional Baseball League
fits in the whole scheme of history?” 11:24
The development of women, to be given the opportunities to do who they are. Every
person who is alive has desires and things that they like and dislike and if one only does
as one is told or put in a niche or to be seen and not heard we have lost something. That
person has lost something, the world has lost something, not just the United States, but
16
�the whole world has lost something because we’re still part of the human race, we’re not
just what someone else thinks we are. We have to learn to live out from within instead of
having to fulfill somebody else’s ideas of what we are. I’m very strong on that because I
had the privilege of living that out. I always say, “I had a health dose of stubbornness”,
but that’s what it takes. There are so many facets to the development of the human being
that intellectually, physically, emotionally, all of that and the more we do that the more
we are who we are and we can interact with other people of the world. I can reach out
and I can say, “hi, thank you, good to meet you”, and I do that with the kids and if we
don’t do that, what are we? 13:53 It just so happens that through sports, it could have
been any sport because most of us played all sports and in that is the interaction between
us and if I throw the ball to you and you throw the ball back to me, we have a relationship
and if we don’t know how to have relationships with people, oh man, we’re in trouble,
we’re in deep trouble if we don’t, that’s what we’re here for. 14:36
Interviewer: “I still didn’t get a complete answer to the history question. Where do
you think the, and I love what you just said, don’t get me wrong, but I want to focus
on—from your perspective where does the team fit in terms of history? Were do
you just a baseball team? Where do you think it fits into all of this?”
You know, we grew up in a time when we were at WWII and my husband was in WWII,
I had two of my brothers in WWII and we took care of the homefront in the sense of—
when we played we made a V from home plate past the pitchers mound, one team here
and one team there and that V was for victory, that’s what that was for. We played at
Fort Sheridan for the soldiers there and for the navy people at Great Lakes and that was
usually in the springtime for exhibitions and things like that. 15:43 We helped to sell
war bonds in the sense of our appearances. We didn’t physically handle that, but it was
because of whom we were and what we were doing that the war bonds were sold and we
saved Aluminum foil and made it into baseballs and threw them around. We were a part
of the homefront; I think a very large part of the homefront. To give entertainment where
there wasn’t much. You didn’t have much money, there was gas rationing and we took
care of the people in that sense that were in a geographical area.
Interviewer: “Now that part you did feel at the time, right? You did feel that
part?”
Sure right.
Interviewer: “You may not have understood the significance of the baseball and
what it was going to do for future generations, but you did feel that it was part of
the war effort like “Rosie the Riveter”, the WACS or the WAVES or anybody?”
17:08
Absolutely, we were very much aware of sort of a role, I would call it a role, that a—that
actually helped to keep people who worked very hard and long hours, they had a chance
to relax and had a chance to interact with us, and we with them, in a very positive way.
We were always in tune with what was going on, always. 17:49 We began every game
with the “Star Spangled Banner” and we were very in tune to “God Bless America” with
17
�the fat lady singing. Had to hear the fat lady sing and you know what we did when we
traveled? We sang all the time and it was the singing that helped us in the sense of
fulfilling what it is that the people at home had to go through and keep the moral—we
were moral boosters, I would say for whomever came in contact with us. 18:39
Interviewer: “A couple random questions, any particular incidents, events
highlights anywhere in that period of time you were playing that you, for whatever
reason, would like to have on the record? Maybe the kids want to hear about or
grandchildren would finally hear about. Just something, it doesn’t even have to be
baseball related per say, but what in that period of time when you were playing pro
ball, any particular things that may have happened that come to your head?” 19:10
Well, there are two things. One thing is the travel and realizing that we are part of a
larger thing and the other one is baseball and it has to do with playing in Yankee
Stadium. As we were traveling through and came to Newark, New Jersey again and we
played in the old Griffith Stadium in Washington, D.C. and that was our first time to play
within a major league ballpark, “marvelous”. 19:57 Of course you’re in Newark when
you go across the water there and go to Yankee Stadium and that’s where I met Yogi
Berra because I was on that side and when he was starting out and I was so excited
because I think we parked like two miles away, I left my shoes on the bus and that’s how
excited we were to be in Yankee Stadium. To walk inside for the first time as a very
young person to see Yankee Stadium, you’re looking around and “oh my goodness”. At
that time it was pretty much “the stadium” and to meet the players that we met was a—
Yogi asked me if I wanted to use his bat—well, first of all Yogi liked a thick handle and a
heavy thing out here, it was a club, and if I had picked it up and swung it, I would still be
going around in circles. I saw his wrists and his wrists were really big and you had to
have those kinds of wrists to use a bat like that. The whole experience at Yankee
Stadium was memorable in terms of baseball. 21:21
Interviewer: “Was part of it because you were professional? You’re not just a fan
walking into Yankee Stadium; you’re walking in as a professional into Yankee
Stadium.”
Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. Like I say, we went to Griffith Stadium first on the way up
from town and the difference between a AAA league diamond and major league, there’s
no comparison, it’s just awesome and I use that word not casually, it’s awesome. I
realized why the Yankees had great catchers—because the distance between home plate
and the backstop, you could put a softball diamond in, I mean it was very far. 22:19 You
knew you couldn’t have a fat ball, no fat balls in Yankee Stadium because they could
take two bases instead of one and I think that’s why they had such good catchers and
good hitters. They had catchers that were very good hitters. It was a professional
meeting, absolutely, and a lot of the kids that were there still talk about it. We’re proud
to have been there and rubbed elbows with the “biggies” and just like young kids now are
proud to meet us in that vein. 23:18 When you tell the story, you relive the emotions.
18
�Interviewer: “Well, there are a few of us older “fogies” here that kind of special
being here with you too. I’m not quite the older “fogie” yet, I’m not going to admit
to it though although—I have a question and I’m sure you’ve been asked it a
hundred times, but what did you think of the movie?” 23:48
The movie was good because it was based on fact even though it was a fictional story and
that’s Hollywood and Hollywood eyes. A lot of embellishments that we sit and laugh at
and I think the only thing we were concerned with was in the beginning, when we saw
the move, was a little bit of the language. There wasn’t a lot of that, but we’re thinking
of it in terms of showing young people and I think there’s a version out that doesn’t have
that in and I’m happy about that because it needs to be in the schools and whether it’s
elementary, high school, college or whatever. 24:33
Interviewer: “You will be happy to know that when we first started about doing
this project, the Library of Congress project with women’s baseball, when I talked
to my students and there was not a lot of knowledge about it, but when you said,
League of Their Own, they knew and said, “oh, I loved that movie”, and then I said,
“I’m going to meet the real women” and they went “wow”. I look at it from a
different perspective, I watched the movie and I love tom Hanks and I love Geena
Davis and for me it was more of a Hollywood version, but it did give you the
overview of the experience of walking into that ballpark. eeina Davis walks in and
there’s all those players playing, it had to be close to being real, oh yeah. 25:32
I thought that Penny Marshall was very astute in how it was put together because when I
was in Chicago when we were first asked to come and tryout for six speaking parts and
then we went to Cooperstown and I wondered, “how are they going to do this without
being trite about things and just throw an idiom in there somehow or another and have it
make sense”, but she made sense all the way through, all the way through. There were
integral parts of the story that said what it is and what won support for a lot of us was
when Tom Hanks is talking to Geena Davis when she’s leaving to go to Oregon. Well, I
saw the premieer in Fort Wayne, we had a premiere there and when he said, “of course
it’s hard, if it wasn’t hard, anybody could do it”, well there’s another chest going thing,
but we were quiet, it was so quiet that you could hear all the motors and stuff underneath
that handle everything in that theater. That’s how quiet it was because we were crying.
What I said about having to learn to survive and go through a lot of stuff, that was
another way of saying that, but a way that was acceptable to other people. It helped us to
be acceptable because we went through a lot of unacceptability, but we didn’t let it
change us, it helped us to grow. 27:30
Interviewer: I was moved by that too, in fact I teach writing at Grand Valley and I
say that about writers, the same thing. “It’s hard work and if it was easy,
everybody could do it”. I really felt that too.”
If you are doing what you really love to do, you will do it, no matter how hard it is, but
that makes it what it is or anybody could do it. 28:05
Interviewer: “That was wonderful, that was wonderful.”
19
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Text
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-58_JBaumgart
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Baumgart, Jacqueline Mattson (Interview transcript and video), 2009
Creator
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Baumgart, Jacqueline Mattson
Description
An account of the resource
Jacqueline Baumgart (née Mattson) was born in Waukegan, Illinois. She grew up in Waukegan area and played with the neighborhood boys. She played outfield positions as a kid. In 1942, her family moved to Milwaukee, WI where she played with as a catcher for a few local softball teams. Eventually, she was scouted for the All American Girls Baseball League. At the start of her first spring training she had not been assigned to a team yet. She was eventually assigned to the Springfield Sallies in 1950. She played the 1950 season with them and was then traded to the Kenosha Comets and played the 1951 season with them. One of her main career highlights was having the opportunity to play as a professional in Yankee Stadium.
Contributor
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Boring, Frank (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Women
Language
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2009-09-25
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/06956280e40614b43b3b55d5d7f4f929.mp4
f2a6cac73b1e0613cc4deed266d76c37
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ee7204a431cc0405f065e7fe5a88a1d2.pdf
fdd86f48f75c774251e7c78d76ebb60c
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
WIMP BAUMGARTNER
Women in Baseball
Born: Fort Wayne, Indiana, 1930
Resides:
Interviewed by: James Smither PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 5, 2010,
Detroit, MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, March 23, 2011
Interviewer: “Wimp, can you start by giving us a little bit of background on
yourself? Where and when were you born, for instance?”
I was born in Fort Wayne, Indiana in 1930 and the last of six kids. The other four were
girls and in other words there were five girls in the family and one boy, but he died when
he was eleven months old and I was born two months later, so that was it.
Interviewer: “What did your family do for a living in those days?”
My dad ran a grocery store and, of course, my mom worked in there with him and we
lived above the grocery store. They moved a farmhouse over from where they built the
Harvester in Fort Wayne. My grandpa moved houses, so he moved the farmhouse over
there and my mom was the oldest girl in that family, so my grandpa gave it to the oldest
girl, so that’s where we ended up, across from Zollner, Magnavox and Harvester.
Interviewer: “Was your father able to keep his store through the thirties?” 56:03
Yeah, we got a lot of trade from the guys in the factory, cigarettes and ice cream. Mom
and dad had a restaurant license and they served hamburgers and cheeseburgers. Stuff
that—they would come in and get their potato chips and Twinkie cookies and all that
good stuff. On the way out of the store they would get an ice cream cone to eat on the
way back to the factories and I would have to go out in the yard and clean up their mess.
1
�Interviewer: “So, as long as the factories were going then you had business and you
were ok. How did you get involved playing sports?”
Well, the neighborhood boys. The boys lived close to where I did and of course I didn’t
have any brothers, but we went back to Harvester Park, which was two blocks behind and
they had a ball diamond back there and every night we congregated there, but we always
had to be home by dark. That was it as far as—and oh, the men from Zollners, when they
had the Zollner Pistons professional basketball team, before they moved to Detroit, they
use to come over and shoot baskets at my basket with me, so we always had the big ball
players coming in the store for their donuts and coffee and all that good stuff. 57:16
Interviewer: “Now, when you were playing—were you playing baseball with the
boys or were they playing softball?”
We played with any kind of ball we had.
Interviewer: “With whatever they had, and did they have regular baseball bats or
sticks?”
No, my dad had a softball neighborhood men’s team, and Zollner put up a ball diamond
across the street from our grocery store, which was between Zollner and Magnavox, and
after work, or sometimes at noon, the guys would have an hour for lunch and they would
be over there playing softball in the summertime, so I always had to run over and play
ball with the big men. They let me bat, they let me run the bases, and I was at the height
of my glory. 58:02 I got to know all the fellas that way.
Interviewer: “Were there any other girls playing with them?”
No, the other girls were outrun, I guess, I don’t know.
Interviewer: “So, you’re sisters weren’t interested in this?”
2
�No, they was women or girls or something.
Interviewer: “Alright now, do you remember when the women’s baseball team
came to play in Fort Wayne?”
They came in 1945, and of course, I went out to watch them and also, my phys-ed teacher
at Fort Wayne Central, she went out and tried out and I went with her to the tryouts. I
was just out there running around because I had no intention of playing with them or
anything. We were on our way to the lake, so she went to the tryouts and then we were
going to go to her cottage, her mom and dad’s cottage at the lake. So, we were out there
playing around and she made the team, she was an underhand pitcher at that time, and I
was her student in eighth grade, and of course I tagged her all over, and she was very, not
demanding, but I mimicked her like kids do. 59:20 So, I’d go out and watch them play
ball and I’d look at that and say, “geeze, I can do that”, you know, a cocky little kid, so
when I graduated I tried out with Fort Wayne and, of course, they didn’t need an
outfielder at that time, or anyplace else I could play, so they sent me to Chicago and up
there, they made me into a catcher, and I was right where I should have been all the time.
It felt real good and I got along good and I did pretty good because I went on the tour.
Interviewer: “Alright, so you said you tried out for Fort Wayne, was that an
individual tryout?” 59:58
No, this was a spring training deal. They put an ad in the paper you know, and the other
softball players come and you know, we just performed in front of the manager at that
time, that was Harold Greiner then, and he had a bar in town next to the softball diamond.
Interviewer: “Do you have a sense of how many of those girls got sent on to Chicago
or to the other teams?”
3
�I think there were three of us, and the rest got sent home, but I got to stay, I lucked out.
Interviewer: “So, you go to Chicago and what team are you joining there?”
It wasn’t a team; it was a whole big tryout. We were at a small hotel at the north end of
town. They brought in four Cubans and Lefty Alvarez was one of those Cubans, of
course none of them could talk English or anything. All they did was eat scrambled eggs
and hamburgers and I don’t know what they drank, but that’s all they ate. I think that’s
all they knew how to order. 1:05 Anyhow, from there we left on the tour. We had two
teams, so there were a lot of girls there with fifteen or sixteen on a team, Chicago
[Colleens] and the [Springfield] Sallies. I forget which team I was with first, but anyhow,
midway through June they switched me to the other team, and I don’t remember which
one I was with first.
Interviewer: “So, you got to catch all the pitchers and not just one team?”
Yeah, I ended up catching most all of them, yeah.
Interviewer: “Now, as you were going along in that first season, how well were you
doing as a player? Were you doing well as a catcher or as a hitter?”
I did pretty well at both at that time, of course we were strictly overhand and it was new
for the pitchers and new for batters and I was the first one that got to hit a home run on
that whole tour. 2:07 I don’t know why I remember those things, but they must be
important.
Interviewer: “Do you remember who you hit it off of?”
Heavens no, that was too long ago.
Interviewer: “All right, now what was the daily life like as you were going on tour
with these two teams?”
4
�Ok, we were all on one bus and we intermingle because, like I said, some of us switched
back and forth on different teams. We got three dollars a day meal money, and usually if
we were in a town, we were only there for one night or maybe two, so we always had
dirty clothes to do. We always went out and ate at small restaurants, we didn’t have
Burger King and McDonalds and that, so they just had mom and pop places, and what we
had was trash food because we would very seldom order a meal. 3:06 If we were
traveling—one time we were traveling from Saint something in Oklahoma, and we rode
until about noon the next day to hit our next stop and it was continually that kind of stuff.
We always stayed in air-cooled hotels, which was a nice little old fan up there in the
middle of the room just barely going around and that was our air conditioning. Of
course, all the windows were always up. We just moseyed around town and didn’t stay
in the hotel too much because it was too hot. We did run into colored only drinking
fountains and rest rooms and we had never seen that before, and it was in our face almost
every day.
Interviewer: “So, most of the players were from the Midwest and areas where they
didn’t have the—or the Northeast or California?”
Yeah, most of us were from the Midwest. 4:07 As I said, the Cubans were there and a
lot from Michigan and a few from Indiana. Yeah, we had some from Redkey, down by
Indianapolis and Ohio. We had some from Ohio and Illinois and that was about it, the
Midwest and we didn’t have hardly anybody coming from somewhere else.
Interviewer: “And if they were not coming up from the south, they wouldn’t have
seen the segregation and all that kind of thing.”
5
�Mentioning the south and the ball players—every time we went in, I wouldn’t say every
time, but a lot of the times we went in, they would ads in the paper that we were coming
and they were to come out and tryout. Well, we picked up Sue Kidd in Arkansas, and she
showed up with bib overalls on and I don’t want to make fun of Sue because she was a
good player, but she was “back woods country, small town hardy”. I think all they had
was a post office there with houses around. 5:10 Her dad was a Postmaster, but she
showed up with a farmer haircut like the Amish, they put a bowl on their head and cut
around it, but after she got on the bus with us , we were in Little Rock, she had to go back
to Choctaw and pack her bag, and they brought her down the next day and she got on the
bus and went with us. Her dad was all for it, he was a gung ho baseball man from way
back. He always had ball teams and three boys. Sue had a couple brothers, Tommy and
Buck, and they played good. After the first season I went home with Sue and we rode
them hills back there. They were going to have a ball game the night we got there,
because we traveled all day and everything, And they wanted Sue to pitch, so Sue pitched
and they had—I had to catch because I was with her, and it was a fabulous time. 6:12
They come from out of those hills, I don’t know where those people come from because
going down the road you don’t see too many houses. They are back in the hills
someplace, but boy when they would have a ball game they would have a couple
thousand people there and that was a lot of people back in the hills.
Interviewer: “Now, when you were touring you would—you mentioned you were in
Oklahoma, you were in Arkansas and those areas, and did you kind of go through
the Southeast or Northeast? Where else did you go traveling?”
6
�We got to play in Natchez and New Orleans, in a ball field down there, at Pelican Park I
think it was, and that was big time. The manager made sure we went to Antoine’s for
dinner one day and we got three dollars a day for meal money and everything in there
was about ten dollars and that was big bucks back then. 7:05 We had to go and we were
all mad at him because we had to spend all our money on chicken and that was the
cheapest thing on the menu. We managed that, we walked through the French Quarter
and I mean, we got an education, all the way, you learn geography, you learn everything.
You learn how they talk from down there and it was just—it was a good education for a
kid the first time away from home. We never got to travel back in those days because our
parents never got to go anywhere. We couldn’t because of the grocery store.
Interviewer: “How much of an effort did they make to look after you? You had
chaperone with you and so forth, but how did they keep track of you and keep you
in line?”
We had a couple on the tour that would kind of get lost once and a while, you know, run
off or do something, but most of us, the first time away and we were all pretty young, so
we didn’t get too wild. 8:09 We were half afraid to walk on some of those streets and at
night we would play, but sometimes we would play day games, but we never wandered
too far by ourselves at all because we didn’t know what was out there.
Interviewer: “As you kept going, and get to Louisiana, do you keep going east and
go all the way to the east coast?”
Yeah, we went to Jackson, Mississippi, Baton Rouge and over to Alabama. We were in
Tennessee; we played—the prettiest time I ever saw, even in major leagues, was in
Memphis Tennessee. The have that red dirt down there you know, and the white lines on
7
�it and the green grass and the fence around it was green, and I don’t know why, but I sure
do remember that park because it was so pretty. 9:11 From there we went back down to
Mississippi. We backtracked and we went through Fort Smith Arkansas three times from
three different directions, getting around to where we—the man got—a guy by the name
of Frank Elve or Helve, he went ahead of us about two days or three days and he would
go to these towns and have them book us. Of course he would have to talk to the
chamber of commerce in all these towns and everything, but he kept ahead of us and he
kept us moving, but glory, we went all over the country in three different times going in
different directions. We were in Paris, Texas, Tyler, Texas and one of the big cities I
think it was Austin-- Austin, Texas, that’s the capital, we were there because we saw the
capital building. One other time, when we first started out, we went to Jefferson
Missouri, and in Jefferson City, Missouri, the capital, they have this acoustic room.
10:15 It’s a great big lobby and the ceiling is real high and you could hear somebody
whisper clear across the—see, I tell you, we got to see that kind of stuff. Oh, another
thing too, in Joplin, Missouri we got to go through the Penitentiary. We were walking
through the jail and them guys were just looking at us girls and we were scared to death
to be in there. I know they were caged up, but we didn’t know the way they were looking
at us bothered us because we had some fifteen and sixteen, I was eighteen, anyhow that
was an experience.
Interviewer: “Now, you didn’t complete that season with the touring teams?”
No, I think it was in Mississippi, they sent a Piper cub down to pick me up and take me
back to Peoria. We got back, Lenny Zintak was our manager and he came in the hotel
room to tell me, “hey Wimp, I got good news for you. I’m sending you home”, and I
8
�thought, “oh God”, and I was about ready to bawl. 11:21 Then he said, “you have to go
up to Peoria and be their catcher”, and I thought, “oh my golly”. We got to Peoria in this
little old plane, I don’t even know who the pilot was, anyway, we got there and Peoria
was playing over in Fort Wayne, my hometown, so we had to get back in this little old
airplane and he flew me over to Fort Wayne. I caught that night and wasn’t introduced to
the pitcher because I just got there in time for the game. They had a uniform that didn’t
fit me, but I had to go out and catch anyhow, but that was fun. My mom and dad were
there and I hadn’t seen them for two months, so they told me I was going to go home and
I was homesick like everyone was. We sure did live through some things. 12:08 Then
we got on the bus right after that and went back to Peoria and for two days I hadn’t been
in a bed. We were traveling all night to get down to Mississippi and then they sent me
someplace else up there and then I finally got to Fort Wayne and that was their last game
of the series there, so I got back in the bus and we went back to Peoria. That was an all
night trip and we got in about nine the next morning—that was living.
Interviewer: “Once you got to Peoria, did you get a chance to settle down a little
bit?”
Yeah, they put me in a house, it wasn’t too far from the ballpark, and I had a room in
there upstairs. A man and a woman who had two kids, nice kids, and I was within
walking distance, so I could walk to the ballpark. I never did get on a bus and go
downtown, I was afraid I’d get lost. Peoria’s pretty big and I didn’t know anything about
it. 13:05
Interviewer: “So, were you their regular catcher then for the rest of the season?”
9
�I caught about the first three games and then Terry Donahue and I switched back and
forth some. I was new and she didn’t have the arm I had, but she had more smarts than I
had because she knew the girls better, so it worked out and I had a nice education on that.
Interviewer: “So, you got to learn the hitters and learn what the pitchers could
do?”
Yeah, you only see then three days and then another team would come in or you would
go somewhere else, so that was only for the month of August, because I got there at the
end of July and the season was over on Labor Day and that’s when the play offs started.
Of course, Peoria wasn’t in the play offs that year, that’s probably why they sent for me,
but I couldn’t get them in the play offs, I know that.
Interviewer: “So, what happens then when the season ends, that first season?”
14:05
That first season? Well, I didn’t have a car, I didn’t know anybody, so my landlord took
me down to the bus station that night and I slept in the bus station that night and I took
the bus to go home the next morning. That was an all night—well, we had to go up
through Chicago because they didn’t have any buses go straight across the northern part
of Indiana, so we had to go to Chicago, stay there half a day and I finally got home.
Interviewer: “When you got back home, did you go back to work in the store or
what did you do?”
I was now eighteen and I could get a job, so I went down the hill to Magnavox. Well,
that hill between Magnavox and us was all down hill and that’s where they had the
soapbox derby every year. Well, when I was a little kid I had a buggy and I went and
took the wheels off the buggy and put it on an ironing board and put an orange crate on
10
�top of that, because we had orange crates from the grocery store, and I made a little—I
just steered it by rope with rope on one side and the other. 15:13 Of course back then
you could do that. Anytime you could get wood with four wheels on it, you could run it
down the hill, so I would play with the boys out there and I could beat them all with my
buggyies, but I went down to get in the soapbox derby and they laughed at me and I had
to go home and I bawled all the way home. They wouldn’t let the girls do anything.
Something else too—in high school—I wanted to take drafting and stuff and I wanted to
be an Architect—that was a boys class and they wouldn’t let me in—that’s the story of
my life—boys always got in my way, but times have changed.
Interviewer: “So, you took a job with Magnavox then for that winter?”
Yeah, for the winter
Interviewer: “Did you know you were going back to the league the next year?”
Yes, Magnavox happily laid you off all summer, so I went back to Magnavox the next
fall, and then the third winter I went to Fort Wayne Catering Company and worked there
in the wintertime. 16:11 I would save my money to go to college.
Interviewer: “So, the second season, how did that start?”
Ok, I got to—I went to spring training with Muskegon.
Interviewer: “And where was spring training that year?”
Cape Girardeau, Missouri—that was—there were four teams down there. The fort
Wayne Daisies was one, we were one, well, Muskegon was one. The Fort Wayne
Daisies picked up Joan Weaver and the Weaver kids, all three of them and they hung on
to them players I guess, they didn’t let them go. Then at the end of spring training I was
with Kalamazoo—I keep saying Kalamazoo because Muskegon was with Kalamazoo,
11
�but I didn’t move to Kalamazoo. At the end of spring training they sent me on a South
Bend bus. Evidently I was traded to South Bend somewhere in spring training and that’s
how I got to South Bend. 17:18 You pack your bag and get on the bus. I looked at them
and I didn’t know any of them, so—the veterans don’t talk to the rookies too much, so I
just went back and sat back and then they put me in a house there within walking distance
of the thing—the ballpark.
Interviewer: “ Now, did you actually go to play in Muskegon or were you just
assigned to them and then switched to the Blue Sox?”
I was assigned to them after Peoria. I don’t know how I got from Peoria to Muskegon.
You get a letter and that’s where you go. That’s where you report for spring training and
we had to drive down—some of the other players from Pennsylvania and stuff were
going through Indiana you know, so we kept track of each other, so I hitched a ride with
some of them to get down to Cape Girardeau.
Interviewer: “What was Cape Girardeau like anyway?” 18:15
Oh, I don’t know, it was on the Mississippi you know and the train tracks down there—
the bog down there and they had a ball diamond down there and everything and I guess it
flooded out half of the spring time, but we got inland a little bit more, but not much. We
were right down along the river park and that’s where the main part of the town was. It
was just a southern town, that’s all I can say, with a lot of railroad tracks and barges
going up and down the river and that was something for us to see.
Interviewer: “All right, I want to make sure we are kind of following the course of
your career here, so you trained with Muskegon, but you did not go to Muskegon?”
I went there—no, I got on the bus to South Bend.
12
�Interviewer: “You went to South Band?”
Yes, they just told me to get on the bus with South Bend. 19:12
Interviewer: “Did you play for South Band that season then?”
Yeah
Interviewer: “Ok, was this 1950 now?”
Yeah, this was 1950.
Interviewer: “Now, who were the really good veteran players for the South Bend
team at that point?”
They had Marge Stefani, she was a real good player, but right now, I think this was the
second year she had become a chaperone, so she was a chaperone when I got there.
Bonnie Baker was a second baseman and she was one of the main players and the stars,
more or less, of the whole thing. Shirley Stavroff was the catcher, she was the one that
made me sit on the bench for a couple years, but she was better. She was a pretty fair
hitter and she was from southern Illinois, I think. Jean Faut was the wife of Karl Winsch,
and she was probably one of the best, one of the top three pitchers in the league. She had
two perfect games in a row and all that good stuff. 20:16 I caught a couple one hitters
from her later on when I started catching. When Stavroff left the team and I moved in
and I was lucky enough to play the last couple years, 1953 and 1954 as a first string
catcher.
Interviewer: “Now, before that, would you just rotate occasionally?”
Yeah, for a double header and I always caught batting practice to help the pitchers out
with target and stuff. I would always hurry up and bat first and then I put my stuff on and
start catching the rest.
13
�Interviewer: “Would they use you as a pinch hitter or put you anywhere else?”
I pinch hit just a couple times, but they never put me in to pinch run. I just wasn’t that
speedy. 21:05
Interviewer: “Were you a good defensive catcher?”
Yeah, more so
Interviewer: “What did you do to keep the base stealers from going wild? Because
there were some women that were really good at stealing bases.”
It wasn’t the catchers—how are you going to stop them, it’s the pitcher that they’re
running on, but you usually knew who was going to run and who wasn’t going to run. I
had a pretty good arm down there and I caught some and some you didn’t get, but it
wasn’t too much one way or the other. I would catch some and not catch some.
Interviewer: “You were kind of like modern baseball now, you do steal, you do run
on the pitcher and if a catcher had a good arm you’re a little
more careful.”
I would shoot one down to first or third sometimes, just to keep them a little closer
because that wasn’t so far away and you could keep them a little more alert to what
they’re trying to do. 22:04
Interviewer: “And then did you have to call the games?”
Yeah, and you pretty well knew what your pitchers could pitch and you knew a little bit
how the batters were standing in the box. You knew some of that stuff and you would
pick it up and, of course, Karl knew some, the manager, because he was a pitcher in the
big leagues. He didn’t last too long, but during the war he did get to play. I enjoyed
14
�what you really learned about the game that fascinated me. I was one who wanted to
know.
Interviewer: “That’s good for a catcher.”
It helps you out a lot.
Interviewer: “You basically played, through your career, with the Blue Sox, or did
you?”
I finished up with the Blue Sox.
Interviewer: “Did you play for anyone else along the way?”
They loaned me to Kalamazoo for a month in 1950. Their catcher blew out a knee and I
went up there and then they finally got a catcher traded in from another team and I went
back to South Bend, that’s where you belonged 23:10
Interviewer: “Now, when you were playing in South Bend, could your family and
friends from Fort Wayne come over and watch you?”
No, but when we got in Fort Wayne I had the whole family there you know, and friends
and stuff. I hit a home run in Fort Wayne one time and that was nice, and I don’t
remember if it won the game or not. I didn’t get as many singles as a lot of people got,
but I’d just as sooner get a double or I never did get a triple, I don’t think, because I’m
not that fast, but I got a few home runs.
Interviewer: “You had some power?”
Yeah, if I hit the ball it usually went pretty fast from wherever. If it went in high enough,
I don’t know, but my favorite place was down third base and the short stop area on the
left side of the diamond.
Interviewer: “Did you play for any championship teams?” 24:08
15
�Oh yeah, I fell into that, in 1951, 1952, we were loaded with good pitchers, Sue Kidd,
Janet Ramsey, and Jean Faut, and I got to catch a little bit on that. In 1951 we won the
pennant that year and then we went on to win the little series at the end, and we were
champions of everything. Then in 1952 we had some—well, we didn’t have a lot of the
old players because twelve of them—quite a few of them, I think six or eight, walked out
at the end of 1951 and I got to catch in 1951 and 52. At the end of the season in 1951
and in 1952 we won both of them.
Interviewer: “And one of those seasons you only had like twelve players left on your
roster?”
Yeah, we was the “dutiful dozen”, that’s what the newspaper said, and that was
interesting. 25:07
Interviewer: “But you got the job done. All right, now you played until the league
ended in 1954. Those last couple years could you tell the league was having
trouble?”
Yeah, they were having financial trouble. The caliber of the game was still pretty good in
1953, but the older players were getting older and they were leaving. If they started in
1943,44 and 45, a lot of those was getting out at 1950, 52 and 53, so they were bringing
in a lot of rookies and people who had never played baseball before, of course you all had
to go through that, everybody that got in the league went through that. It was just one of
those things and in TV and everything and of course the major leagues took over the
television, and people stayed home, they didn’t come out to watch us much. We finished
the season, but you that was the end of the thing, we knew we weren’t coming back next
year, so everybody took their uniforms or their shirt and jackets and stuff. 26:17
16
�Interviewer: “In the 1953 season, you did go to the championship series again and
Grand Rapids won that year, but I think you were the ones that they beat, or else
they beat Fort Wayne, I forget.”
1953 wasn’t us
Interviewer: “Fort Wayne, all right, I’m getting my league history here—I’ve got to
make sure I got that straight, but you had—the Blue Sox had a couple of good years
in there, okay. Now, if the league had kept going would you have stayed with it a
while longer?”
Probably, but I don’t know. See, in 1953 when the season was over, and I knew we
would have another 1954 yet. I started college in the fall of 1953 and then in the spring
of 1953, when it was time to go to spring training, I saved all my skips in college and I
didn’t skip any out, so I could go to spring training, so they let me go to spring training.
27:15 I had to come back and take finals, but I took off after a ball game one night in
South Bend and drove down to Indianapolis, where I was going to school, and I got down
there and slept a couple of hours and then I had to go and take a couple finals and then a
couple in the morning and one in the afternoon. Then I had to drive back up to south
Bend and that night I think I had seven errors in that ball game. I overthrew second base,
I don’ know, I always threw to first base and I was so sleepy and everything I didn’t
know what I was doing. Anyway, that was the end of school for that year and I got out of
that all right.
Interviewer: “All right, and then you had to get through the last season. where
there fewer teams by then or were there other signs aside from smaller crowds?
How else could you tell there were problems?” 28:14
17
�I think we started with six teams that season, but somewhere in the middle we lost one of
them. I know we ended up with five, but I don’t think for the whole season. It was sad
because, you know, I got to play in 1951, 52 and 53 regularly and it takes that long to
learn the game and the people and everything else. Just about the time you’re ready to be
a good strong veteran for four or five more years, four or five more years wasn’t there.
That was sad, but you know, you met an awful lot of nice people and I can go all over the
country now and visit former players for South Bend or any place since we have these
reunions and things. 29:03
Interviewer: “Now, you went back to college after that was over and what did you
get your degree in?”
The same thing all the rest of them got it in. No, I ended up—I can teach English, I can
teach biology, I can teach physical education, genetics. I took a lot of biology because I
was thinking of going into being a doctor, but then I figured I wasn’t that smart. By that
time I had a lot of biology, vertebrae zoology, en vertebrae zoology, so I ended up being
a biology teacher, phys ed, health and a little bit of science teacher.
Interviewer: “Where did you teach?”
I started out in a little place outside of Elkhart. I went back up to live in south Bend
because some the old players, Blue Sox, had a basketball team and I wanted to play a
couple of years of basketball, so I taught in a little country school in Jimtown, we were
the “Jimtown Jimmy’s”, but it was a country school and there were very nice families
there, you know, just farm families. 30:23 We were just on the south end of Elkhart
where the railroad went through and some of the colored lived on the south of the
railroad, so we had those players, and those kids, along with the white kids, I had some
18
�real good teams, track teams, volleyball teams and basketball. We had a good little
school, and I enjoyed that a lot.
Interviewer: “Did you stay at that one school or did you move?”
I was there for twelve years and then my dad died. He went to bed one night and never
go out, and then I went back to live with my mom because I didn’t want her to have to
move and everything, and then I worked at Leo High School in--just east of Fort Wayne.
31:09 My old superintendent in Jimtown now the superintendent down in East Allen, so
he called on the phone up there during the daytime and the office lady answered and
when he was in Jimtown he was the principal and then superintendent , well she
recognized his voice on the telephone, so she came down to get me to tell me I had a
phone call, so I went back, walking through the hall, and I said, “Who is it?”. She said,
“It’s Roberts”, and I said, “What does he want?” She said, “you just tell him you can’t
come”, so he wanted me to come down to East Allen, so I ended up in East Allen, and it
was closer to home. I could drive every day.
Interviewer: “Now, as you were teaching and coaching and doing all of this, did
people know that you played professional baseball?”
Yeah, because some of them remembered because Elkhart’s just a little ways from South
Bend and Mishawaka, so they use to come and watch us play. 32:10 Then when we
went back, we still had a couple games in South Bend because every year or two they
would all get together and put on a little exhibition for the local people you know,
because it was the newspapers that would kind of want us to do some of that stuff. Of
course one night half of Jimtown came over to watch because they had seen some of it
before. I just had a good life all the way through.
19
�Interviewer: “You become an educator, and you’re teaching in a period when they
start to open up things in schools for women to do sports and this kind of thing, so
were you connected with that?”
Yeah, we started out; of course half the principals didn’t want the girls playing anyhow.
When I started teaching, the first thing I said to myself, I said, “these kids are going to
play”, so I had a real good principal though, that Mr. Sheets, he was the one that hired
me, and he had three daughters and that helped. 33:16 He left and became the
superintendent and then I had Mr. Jones and he had two daughters and that helped. I got
those kids in the gym playing volleyball games and basketball games with just the little
local schools around. We had maybe six games a year is all to start with and we were out
there playing. I had a couple friends that I said we played basketball in South Bend and
they were school teachers, so we played—I played Cynthia Sawyer’s kids in south Bend,
they were on the west side of town and they would drive over. This is one funny thing,
Cynthia Sawyer came over to have a track meet with her kids and a lot of them were
colored and some whites, and then I had the same thing, so they came over in two cars.
34:08 All these kids getting out of these two cars and my kids were sitting out there in
the grass waiting for them you know, because we had already warmed up somewhat, and
those kids are getting out of the car and my kid, half of them were colored and these other
guys got out of the car and they said, “my God they’re all black, what are we going to
do?” They were scared seeing these city colored kids coming out there, but we beat
them. You know, it’s funny how they acted sometimes. One time I had them up to the
lake, my GAAA kids, and half of them were colored and they were sitting up there in the
yard under the trees and the other white kids were out there on the piers and I said, “How
20
�come you guys are not out there swimming in the sun?” She said, “We don’t want to get
a sunburn”. Well here dumb me, I didn’t even know they get sunburns, so it was an
education having them and they were just good kids. I can’t believe how—see, I just
lucked into all that stuff. 35:06
Interviewer: “Did you coach girls teams or women’s teams? As you were saying,
the women were going to play did you do both? Did you coach boys teams as well as
women’s teams?”
No, you couldn’t get into the boys world, that’s all there was to it, no way under the sun.
I had to fight to get the gym once a week afterwards. Then we had a bowling league and
we went into town and went bowling, the girls. Then the boys were mad because they
couldn’t go in and go bowling, because I wasn’t going to take them, they were boys. I’d
take the girls because they wouldn’t let us in their gym; I’m not going to let them in the
bowling alley.
Interviewer: “Did this get a little easier over the course of time? Did people get
used to having girls play and this kind of stuff?”
Yeah, it took a while though, but finally you know, the kids I had come back from
college and stuff and they had been playing a little bit in college and it just grew out.
36:09 Another thing, they finally got a women’s advisory board down at the IHASSA
down in Indianapolis, well we had to run for that, so I talked to my principal about it and
he urged me to go into it and to write a letter to all the principals around the area. Well, I
did what I was told and I got voted on down there, so I was on that first advisory board
and I think I was on it about six years or so. They finally made this one lady a cocommissioner, now that helped and now the girls were ready to play and this was in the
21
�late sixties probably that we finally go t noticed down there in Indianapolis. We were at
the GAA was kind of the statewide and we had our own tournaments and then the state
finally recognized that too. 37:05 They couldn’t hide it too much longer, so then title
nine came in and we were off and running.
Interviewer: “So when you were playing, did you think of yourselves at all as sort of
pioneers or people who were opening things up for women?”
We didn’t know we were pioneers until fifty years later. A pioneer only means you’re
old I guess, I don’t know.
Interviewer: “It means you’re first, but it does seem there’s a pretty good
continuity here. You’re playing in this women’s league and you come back and you
stay connected with sports and as a teacher you’re actively involved in getting more
things for girls to do and building that up, and that’s drawing on your own
experience at least knowing they can go do it.”
Girls can do anything; just turn them loose, that’s all you got to say. They’re intelligent
you know and they don’t take much guff from anybody anymore. They’re raised
different today and it’s a different world. Just think, I got to be part of it. 38:20
Interviewer: “Now, do you look back over that whole experience of playing
professional ball, what do you think the main effects of that were for you? What did
it do for you?”
It opened you up a little bit to fight for what you wanted. I was lucky enough, I had good
principals and I was surrounded with good people. A lot of athletic women—you don’t
know how to say all that stuff. I think it was the right time or I never would have gotten
into that and if they didn’t move me into Fort Wayne I probably wouldn’t have even
22
�known they existed. I lucked out there and I happened to be the right age. I wasn’t too
smart, but I sure knew when to take advantage of something. 39:16
Interviewer: “You managed to become a science teacher. I think you’re pretty
qualified and smart. I would be willing to bet that anyway. Anything else you
would like to add to the record here before we close out the interview?”
Interviewer: “Were you connected at all with the League of Their Own movie and
the beginnings of the players association?”
Yeah, we got that notice in a newsletter, I think, that they were going to do all that stuff
and we just needed—a couple of us decided—Sue Kidd was still in South Bend, she went
along and Jean Harding went, a couple of them around. You got in a car and went to
New York.
Interviewer: “Cooperstown?”
Yeah, but first you had to go to Chicago. There’s one good thing about that, in Chicago,
I was trying to think of the area where we were. 40:18
Interviewer: “You were in Skokie.”
Yeah Skokie. In Skokie we were out to this ball diamond and we all had red shirts on
with big numbers on them you know, and everything and we were all working out,
running around the field’ hitting fly balls, and throwing and catching and this big bus
pulls out there along the side over there. Of course we had a fence around there and this
big bus comes and it stops out there and these big guys, big burly guys, get off that bus
and here comes a couple other women off, but they were far away, and these guys walk
way around the outfield and they just stand out there. 41:08 We were watching them
and wondering what they were there for and here comes Madonna walking down off the
23
�sidewalk and of course we were all looking at her. Rosy O’Donnell was there and she
was already out there talking to us and everything. Gina Davis, we didn’t see her there.
She never was up there. They had the little sister though, Lori Petty, she was there, so
that was our introduction to-Interviewer: “Hollywood”
Yeah, they came in and landed at the airport and she got off there and I guess nobody was
supposed to know she was in town and she had all this rig-a-ma-roll with her, but she
made a nice entrance. She was a pretty good ball player too, I mean, she was one of the
better ones.
Interviewer: “Did you have to teach her a lot?”
Not all that, you could see she’s athletic when you see her dance and that and she could
do about anything she wanted to. 42:14
Interviewer: “Some of the other players talked about going there and they said she
was in good shape, but she didn’t know how to play ball, but she learned and she
worked at it.”
She wasn’t too bad and probably the best one, because she use to play some, was Rosy
O’Donnell, but Madonna wasn’t too bad though.
Interviewer: “You also went to Cooperstown and were part of the stuff they filmed
there too?”
Yeah, we went there and there was a thing that happened there the last night at
Cooperstown. Penny Marshal wanted to finish up shooting, so we were there until about
four or four thirty in the morning and we had to walk down this ramp you know, and this
little room, they had a glassed in case right in the middle of the room, so you either had to
24
�go around to the right or the left as you came down the ramp. We came down that ramp I
bet twenty-four times. Penny had to keep reshooting everything, so I always went around
the back of the little ramp, so I wasn’t in the way of the film too much because I didn’t
want to be--anyway I’m going around that back. 43:22 Anyhow, Gina Davis, the old
Gina Davis, that took her place was going to walk around that way also, and she would
see her sister on the other side and they would finally embrace when they saw each other,
in the movie stuff. Well anyhow, were walking around this little thing and then we walk
back up again and after she’d get partway up there, she had a little flask under her arm
and she’d take a little nip out of that flask and then we’d walk down that ramp again and
around that thing and sometimes if she had to hesitate back there she’s take a nip from
the flask. I wasn’t too far behind her and thinking, no wonder we’re down here until four
thirty in the morning. She had to empty that thing almost because she was real busy on it.
44:15 She was something else, I’ll tell you. She tried to catch a ball out there and she
broke a fingernail and then she had to stop and the whole film would have to start over on
that. She should have been the whole movie herself, I’ll tell you. That was the old Gina
Davis. That was funny. Nobody else probably told you that one.
Interviewer: “What did you think of the movie?”
I thought it pretty well had a lot of truth in it, but a couple things—they never fell over
the fence and came up with a hot dog in their mouth or something like that, but that was
Pepper Pare, Pepper pare made some of that stuff, but that’s Pepper Pare, she always had
to have her two cents worth in. There’s a lot of them that got to have their two cents
worth in, but that makes everything. 45:15
Interviewer: “What do you think they did a particularly good job with?”
25
�In the movie, it was a pretty fair story because that little boy that was in the movie, we
had a little boy on our team. Jean Faut had a little boy, little Larry, that traveled with us
and we would pick on him somewhat, we tried not to because if you were picking on him
the other girls would tell you to quit, but we teased him, and Jean, she really, she kept her
cool, picking on her kid, but he was a nice kid and Jean was—you couldn’t beat Jean
Faut, that’s all there was to it and Karl was alright. Sometimes it wasn’t so good having
your husband managing you, and Jean had some hard times with that, but hey, that’s life.
When you’re that close together all the time, twenty-four hours a day. 46:16
Interviewer: “It really does sound like a great experience.”
Your whole life, you sit down and—I never talked about my whole life before, but the
best part of it, one of the best parts, was playing ball. You can’t beat playing ball and
meeting the people that you meet and learning the geography of the country and just
doing what you could do. It’s a free country and you could just do anything. Nobody
can stop you if you don’t want them to.
Interviewer: “Now you get to come back to these reunions and having been through
my second one now, they are really something. Had you been going to the reunions
since the beginning?”
I hit everyone, and one year we had one—we had a meeting in St. Petersburg and the
same year we went to Cooperstown. I was all ready—I sent my money in down there to
Florida and then two of the people I was going to go to Florida with decided they were
going to Cooperstown. 47:23 Well, there goes my ride down to Florida, so I rode with
them and went over to Cooperstown and that’s why I was in Cooperstown when they
26
�were doing some of that, but that was all right. I wasn’t on the board yet or anything,
things that didn’t bother too much.
Interviewer: “Unless we got something else here guys, we are done. We are done
and thank you very much for coming and talking to us.”
Thank you
27
�28
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-58_MLBaumgartner
Title
A name given to the resource
Baumgartner, Mary Louise "Wimp" (Interview transcript and video), 2010
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Baumgartner, Mary Louise
Description
An account of the resource
Mary Louise "Wimp" Baumgartner was born in Fort Wayne, Indiana in 1930. She played in the AAGPBL from 1949 to 1954 as a catcher for Peoria and South Bend. She went to college in the off season, and after the league folded she became a teacher and coach for girls' athletic teams, and was actively involved in the promotion of girls' sports in Indiana.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball players--Indiana
Language
A language of the resource
eng
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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2010-08-05
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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Grand Valley State University
All American Girl’s Professional Baseball League
Veterans’ History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Maybelle Blair
Length of Interview: (00:38:58)
Interviewed by: James Smither, PhD, GVSU Veterans History Project, September 27,
2009, Milwaukee, WI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, May 8, 2010
Born: 1917 Longvale, CA
Resides: Palm Desert, CA
Interviewer: “ Maybelle, can you start by telling us a little bit about yourself. To
start with, where were you born?”
I was born in Longvale, California, which is right next to the LAX Airport.
Interviewer: “What year was that?”
1927
Interviewer: “Wow, you would never know.”
Absolutely not.
Interviewer: “At that point, what did your family do for a living?”
My father was in charge of a park in Englewood, California. He started it off with the
CC Camp and he was very fortunate to get the job and my mother was a housewife. 1:01
Interviewer: “How many kids were in the family?”
Two.
Interviewer: “Was your father able to keep his job through the thirties?”
Yes, absolutely, that’s what saved us because we did go through the depression and we
were very, very, very poor.
Interviewer: “At what point did you start playing organized sports or even
disorganized sports?”
Oh, probably when I was about nine years old, because my brother, whom I worshiped
and was seven years older than I, loved baseball, so naturally, guess what? Little sister
was right behind him and followed him every step of the way and he would tell me to go
home, but when the boys needed to have somebody at their batting practice, that was the
1
�time that I could play and I could go and shag the balls, which was very fortunate, I
thought.. 1:49
Interviewer: “Did you play in pick-up games and things like that too? Did they let
you play at some point?”
Oh yeah, when they needed an extra person, guess who got to play and out in right field
naturally, but at the time it was fun though.
Interviewer: “How did that translate into your playing organized softball? When
did you start that?”
I started probably playing organized softball, probably in 1942. We had little industrial
teams or local teams that they had, I joined that and that was a lot of fun when I was still
in—actually grade school I guess. 2:31
Interviewer: “How old were you, do you think, when you started?”
Probably twelve.
Interviewer: “Did you have a favorite position?”
Yes, second base.
Interviewer: “Could you turn a good double play?”
Oh my, they would hire me today if I was able, but I loved every minute of it, it was a lot
of fun and the double play was great.
Interviewer: “At this point, whom were you playing against?”
Just little local teams, like some market or some department store or something like that.
We had little leagues. 3:06
Interviewer: “How would you get to the games?”
My father would take me and my brother would go along begrudgingly because he didn’t
want to see sister play, it was boring.
Interviewer: “Now, at some point do you move up a level in terms of the league that
you’re playing in?”
Yes, they started opening up a real good semi-pro league in Burbank, California and I
was able to go and play in that league. I was real fortunate to be able to do that and that
was quite exciting for me.
Interviewer: “What year did that start up for you?”
Probably 1942 or 43, right in there.
Interviewer: “So it was about the same time that the All American Girls League
was forming up in Chicago.”
2
�Right, I was still in high school and that’s when that took place.
Interviewer: “Were most of the people that were playing in this league about your
age or were they older?”
Some of them were older, the ones that took off to play in the all American and there
were some that were a little younger, both ways, but I was probably one of the youngest.
4:15
Interviewer: “Now you’re playing with this league, how far a field would you travel
to play your games now, still local?”
All over, and then I started playing with the Pasadena Ramblers and that was a traveling
league during the war and we use to go and play the service men and all over the place.
We went to San Diego, we went to northern California to all of the forts and all the bases
and that was quite a lot of fun because the guy’s got a big kick out of it and we really got
a kick out of it and that’s what we actually did, we went to play them and they had
planned a trip for us to go overseas to play the teams and at that time the war had picked
up and they said no, that it would be too dangerous for us to go, so we stayed home. 5:01
Interviewer: “How does it work? You arrange that you’re going to an army base
or a navy base or someplace, how do they orchestrate that and look after you?”
What they would do was, they would send a bus after us wherever we were or hire a
Greyhound bus or there was another bus line, but I can’t remember what it was at that
particular time, and they would charter that for us and take us down. We would go into
the barracks where the women were and we would get dressed and all that we had to
prepare for and after our ball games they would feed us dinner and the bus would take us
home.
Interviewer: “Were you playing men’s teams or women’s teams?”
Men’s teams, they were all men’s teams. 5:45
Interviewer: “How did the male players react to that?”
Well, they couldn’t believe it, that we could beat them. They thought, “oh god we’ll kill
these women”, but they couldn’t beat us because they weren’t professional ball players, I
mean good ball players, some of them were good ball players, but we would just cream
them and when we did, they couldn’t believe it. Everybody in the stands, all the rest of
the soldiers or navy or sailors or what have you, would just scream and holler at them,
“you sissy, you can’t catch”, you know it was really fun. 6:18
Interviewer: “Now, the All American Girls Baseball League, they had their skirts
and all this kind of stuff. What kind of uniforms did you have?”
We just had shorts and a top and pants also. It was generally satin in those days that we
all wore and that was a lot of fun.
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�Interviewer: “It was better for sliding into base.”
Absolutely, you would get strawberries and that didn’t feel too good.
Interviewer: “Did you would still get strawberries even with the satin?”
Absolutely, they even had little sliding slides that we had. They had it.
Interviewer: “Now was the softball played with a sort of regulation size baseball
field or a smaller field?”
A regular softball field, and don’t ask me the size of the bases because I can’t remember
that far. 7:04
Interviewer: “Are the distances a little bit shorter than baseball or longer?”
Much shorter.
Interviewer: “So in that way it was similar to what the All American Girls League
was when they started out, when they played shorter dimensions.”
Absolutely.
Interviewer: “Now, in softball were you a good hitter?”
A very good hitter and that was one of my strong points. I was a good hitter and I had a
strong arm.
Interviewer: “As a hitter did you hit line drives or long flies?”
Line drives and I could whack the heck out of that thing and it was a lot of fun. I enjoyed
it.
Interviewer: “When you were with the Pasadena Ramblers, what was the farthest
away from home you traveled?”
Probably three hundred miles, north California and San Diego from Los Angeles.
Interviewer: “They weren’t sending you out into the Midwest or anything like
that?”
No, no, no, just the California area, but we hit from northern to southern.
Interviewer: “As you were doing this, did you have any kind of regular job at the
same time or was the team your job?”
I was in high school. 8:15
4
�Interviewer: “You were in high school and were you mostly playing in the summer
when you sere out of school or would they take you out of school to go on these
trips?”
It was during the summertime, during our summer vacation. My mother wouldn’t let me
out of school, period, no matter how I begged.
Interviewer: “Now, how long were you playing in that league?”
I was probably there until 1946 or 1947 when the scout saw me, the Chicago scout saw
me and wanted me to come and play professional softball in Chicago. 8:51
Interviewer: “So there is professional softball in Chicago, was there a league up
there?”
Oh yes, a wonderful league up there, a strictly softball league and we played in the
Chicago area and it was the best part of my life.
Interviewer: “They were scouting the California league you were in, so the scout
says, “you want to come up and play?” did you have to go and clear it with your
parents?”
Oh, are you kidding, that poor guy went through the fifth degree I’ll tell you, I felt sorry
for him. My mother was just a---every question she could think of and he promised and
promised to take good care of me and all I would have to do is put me on the train and he
would pick me up at the other end. 9:41 I would have to write home so often or call
home and that was guaranteed and he saw to it that I did.
Interviewer: “Had you ever taken a long train trip like that before?”
The first time in my life, I couldn’t hardly go to Englewood, California we were so poor,
we didn’t have any money, so that was my very first trip outside of California.
Interviewer: “Do you remember how long it took?”
Probably a day and a half or two days on a train, I can’t remember, but it was exciting.
10:14
Interviewer: “When you got up to Chicago, what did they do with you?”
Well, they met me at the train and they took me to a hotel and I was scared to death
because I was there all by myself and I had never been by myself, so I pushed the dresser
up against the wall and got me four baseballs and a bat and dared anybody to come in my
room. It was really something, I was scared to death and I called my mother and she
said, “I can’t afford this, get off the line”, so I had to cut the conversation pretty close, but
oh my god I was scared. 10:49 I told them, “I can’t do this any longer, I can’t sleep, I
can’t do anything”, so two days later I got my roommate in from Missouri, a gal, and we
5
�became very, very good friends and I was thrilled to death when she came, so she was my
roommate during that period. 11:09
Interviewer: “Was there a specific team that you were assigned to then?”
My assignment was with the Chicago Cardinals and it was a nice team and we had a real
good team.
Interviewer: “Now, did each team have their own home park or were their certain
parks that everyone played in?”
Everybody had their home park.
Interviewer: “What was yours?”
Except for our, that was the only on that didn’t, excuse me. We played at Bidwell
Stadium and Bluebird Park, which Charlie Bidwell owned and his son now runs the
Chicago Cardinals and there were several others.
Interviewer: “They are the Arizona Cardinals these days.”
Yes, the Arizona Cardinals, excuse me. 11:57
Interviewer: “There was a Chicago Cardinals football team.”
Well, that’s the same one. They came out here and are now the Arizona Cardinals and
that’s what he owned.
Interviewer: “Did they pay you much of anything?”
Oh yeah, I was rich, I made sixty dollars a week and my gosh, I had money that wouldn’t
end. I was going to save it and go to college like a lot of us tried to do and I sent some
home to my mother. I was a rich girl because the hotel room was only seven dollars a
week at that time. 12:24
Interviewer: “What did they do in terms of chaperoning you or were you just on
your own?”
Out manager was responsible for us, he and his coaches, and they watched out for us.
They did watch me very closely I’ll tell you, I was bad, I was bad.
Interviewer: “Did you get yourself in trouble?”
I was always in trouble having a good time that was my problem. I loved everybody.
Interviewer: “What were the games like in this league?”
6
�They were wonderful, absolutely wonderful and we had some fantastic ball players like
you see the Olympic teams today, that’s how our softball teams played ball exactly.
Interviewer: “Was it a higher level of ball than you played in California or close?”
Pretty close, but it was a higher level because they took the best ball players from each of
the teams because they would scout and take them back to Chicago and that’s what
happened. 13:26
Interviewer: “You’re playing and how long did you play for them?”
I played there in 1947 and in the latter part of 1948 is when I hurt my legs and I couldn’t
move and that’s when I was signed by Max Carey to go and play in the All American
League.
Interviewer: “All right, explain how that happened.”
Oh god, like I said, I was at Parache Stadium and I was out showing off thinking---I was
a show off for some reason and I could never understand that, but anyway, I pretended I
was a major league pitcher out there throwing the softball and I could throw a curve and I
had a good arm, so after I through showing off this guy comes up to me and said,
“Maybelle would you mind coming over here I want to talk to you for a minute”, and I
said, “no, of course not” and I went wobbling over and he said, “how would you like to
go and play for the All American?” I thought for about two seconds and I said, “sure
why not, I can’t do anything, but I don’t want to play anything but pitcher”, and he said,
“that’s what I want you for”, and I thought, “pitcher, I never played pitcher before, but
I’ll go”. 14:36 Well anyway, they signed me and I got in my car, I had a car at that time
because I had saved my money, and I drove down to Peoria and they got me a hotel and I
had a horrible toothache and these two little girls that were great fans went out and got
me some toothache medicine and saved my life and anyway to make a long story short, I
started pitching. 15:09 I was there for maybe a month and first of all he had me go
out—he called me into the game, “Hey Maybelle come in and pitch”, and I said, “oh”,
and here I come dizzy Dean herself is walking out there, so I was out there and somebody
was on first base, I don’t know who it was, but I think it was Sophie Kurys. I wound up
I’ll tell you, I wound up for forty minutes and by the time I got through unwinding that
runner was on third base you know not knowing I forgot all about it that I had a runner on
and that was the fun of it, I had a lot of fun. 15:49 They started bunting me because they
found out I couldn’t move.
Interviewer: “Ok, sort out your baseball career a little bit. How long were you with
the team before they put you in, was it a month?”
It was actually about a week and a half before he put me in and he kept me around for
courtesy’s sake I guess for another couple weeks and then he called me in his office and
he said, “I hate to have to tell you this, but I’m going to have to release you, but would
you please come back next year when your legs are well because we can certainly use
you.” 16.27
7
�Interviewer: “So he liked your arm anyway?”
Oh yeah, I got a good arm still today.
Interviewer: “When you were working out with them, before he had actually put
you in the game, did they know you couldn’t run?”
No, because I didn’t practice like I was running, I didn’t let them know. I kept it a secret
all to myself.
Interviewer: “So in the game, when you were playing, did someone try bunting on
you to see what would happen?”
Well yeah, exactly, because the rumor had gotten through because we had interaction
between the leagues because when we were off we would go and visit the other kids and
they said, “she can’t run so start bunting for god sake, she can’t move”, which was true.
17:12
Interviewer: “How did you hurt your legs?”
Running. And I didn’t tell him and I was hobbling around there and could hardly run and
for some ungodly reason the other leg was pulled and I cannot understand how I got two
charlie horses, but I kept those babies for a long time, even after I came home it took
quite a while to get rid of it. When I got home from playing ball I was hired by Northrop
Aircraft. I wanted to go back and play again, but I had such a good opportunity that I
couldn’t do it. This fellow I met was in charge of all traffic at Northrop Aircraft and he
said, “I want you to come in, learn the job and I want you to be supervisor in
transportation”, and I said, “oh come on, get off of it, I can’t do that”. I told him that and
he said, “you have the personality for it, I need to get you in here to get these drivers in
order”, and I said, “no, no, no”, anyway I finally decided to do it and I said, “the only
way I will do it is if I can learn to drive every piece of equipment we have because I do
not want to hear them razzing me or giving me a hard time that you picked the wrong
person. 18:27 Anyway, he did and I worked my way up from courier hauling VIP’s all
over like generals and presidents, heads of states and what have you all around, to
dispatcher and I went on to be supervisor and then I became manager of all highway
transportation for Northrop Aircraft.
Interviewer: “Tell me a little bit about that courier job. Who were you driving
around?”
Big time—heads of state from all over the world because at that time we were building
the F5 Fighter and we were trying to sell it, so we were selling it to all the different
countries for their fleet or air force and I hauled lots of very important people. In fact,
Ronald Reagan was one of them and to this day I was thrilled to death about that. He was
Governor of the state at that particular time. 19:27
8
�Interviewer: “Were their other individuals whose names stood out as being
particularly interesting or unusual people?”
Oh sure, General Whitehead who was the head of the Pacific, and what was his name—I
loved him, but several of them and I can’t remember right now. Korean generals and it
was quite an experience for me.
Interviewer: “Were you going into jobs that normally men had been doing?”
Yes absolutely, it was all men and then when I became currier there were two couriers
ahead of me and both girls. W wore one of those uniforms and I thought I was real cute.
I was uglier than sin, but I thought I was cute. Anyway, that’s what we did and that was
the only girls in the department and then I went on, like I told you, and became head of
the department and one of my jobs was planning routes for the F18 aircraft to get it from
Hawthorn Air Force Base to---from Northrop Field to Edwards Air Force Base. 20:45 I
would have to go our and survey all of that—take down signs, trees, everything else
because we had to get it there because that was going to be our future the F18, so luckily
that was a real job and I got that sucker down there. One time when we were going
through downtown L.A. because it’s got the wings on it, and this drunk comes staggering
out of a bar in downtown Los Angeles he looked and the wing was practically going over
his head and he went like this and turned around and went right back into the bar. He
wasn’t seeing pink elephants he was just seeing airplanes. I can imagine what he went
back in and told them. 21:31 When I got to Edwards Air Force Base it was so exciting
because they had laid out the red carpet for me and after we stopped the aircraft and all
the people got out, they were playing “off we go into the wild blue yonder”, and I got out
of the truck and I couldn’t stand up, I was so weak I fell almost down on my knees, but
they caught me, I was so excited, it was quite an honor.
Interviewer: “Did you encounter any friction being a woman and going into these
positions and telling men what to do?”
At first I did, but the problem was is that I knew it very well and I knew what I was
talking about and they couldn’t argue with me or try to pull the wool over my eyes and
they soon learned that they couldn’t do that to me. I was fair, but I was strict. 22:17
Interviewer: “So the fellow that hired you knew what he was doing.”
Apparently, I guess so and also, I planned the route for the B2 Bomber, so I was happy
about that too.
Interviewer: “Did you have to move that along surface streets too?”
Oh yeah, not the whole bomber, but just the cockpit area.
Interviewer: “But not the whole thing.”
9
�Oh no you couldn’t. Up at Palmdale they built the wings, but we built the cockpit at our
facility and that was great too. I have to tell you too that I played for the New Orleans
Jacks, the world’s champions.
Interviewer: “Now when were you doing that?”
I can’t remember what year that was, but it was while I was working at Northrop. I told
my boss at the time, I said, “I have to have a whole month or so off because they are
asking me and pleading with me to come and play for them”. I said, “Ok?” he said,
“Ok”, so he gave me a month off. 23:11
Interviewer: “How did you get the invitation to play for New Orleans?”
Well, they new about me playing back there and they were out here and they needed
another ball player desperately, so I said, “ok” and I went and that was fun.
Interviewer: “Did you play second base for them?”
Second base.
Interviewer: “Then where did you go when you were playing with them?”
Oh, up through Canada, all through Washington, Oregon, Arizona and California.
Interviewer: “Now, was this a point after the All American League had folded?”
Yes that was, I would say that was probably down at about 1950 or 1951 maybe and I
may be wrong there. 23:55
Interviewer: “It could be, in 50 and 51 the league was still going at that point
wasn’t it?”
Oh yeah, the league was still going, but I didn’t have time to go back and play ball, I
couldn’t do that because I would lose my job and that was more important.
Interviewer. “You could take the month and go with New Orleans?”
Yes, they each gave me a month.
Interviewer: “So you had a chance to go back and play a little bit after the injury?”
Yeah, I did and that was fun.
Interviewer: “Now, on that particular tour, what kind of crowds did you get?”
Oh, fantastic, in fact we stopped at Bakersfield and played the world champion men’s
baseball team and we had two sisters on the team known as the Savodas—the best
baseball players or softball players or ball players I have ever seen in my life. During
batting practice they, both of them, could take batting practice and hit it over the fence
10
�left handed and right handed, no problem, run like deer and throw—you cannot imagine
how great they were, the two best ball players that ever lived. 24:52
Interviewer: “You played a men’s championship team, was that a championship
softball team?”
Softball team yeah.
Interviewer: “So you weren’t playing the New York Yankees or something?”
No, but during that game that we played them, the men had to pitch from the men’s
league and the women pitched from out league distance to the plate and our pitcher was
named Lotty Jackson and she stood about six one or two and she had a wind up that you
couldn’t even see the ball. Ginny Finch today, I don’t think Ginny Finch is as fast as was
this girl and these guys couldn’t hit her and it was so funny, we couldn’t hit him either,
let’s face it, anyway he walked me somehow, I probably stood there with my bat on my
shoulder and he couldn’t hit the plate, anyway, I somehow got over to third base and this
manager we had, Freda Sevoda one of the Sevoda sisters, she said, “pretend like you
can’t run”, and I said, “I can run”, and she said, “no, pretend like you can’t run”, and I
said, “ok”. 26:00 She took over and what she noticed—we beat these guys and what
happened was that the catcher, when he would get the ball sometimes, he would walk to
almost where the pitcher was and give him this (a sign) and he would slowly start
walking back to the plate, She noticed, that’s how smart she was, well he went out there
and he gave a little pitch to the pitcher and she took off like a jack rabbit and slid right
under him and we won one to nothing and I think there were eight thousand people out
there for that game and they just hoot and hollered and that was really something. 26:35
I never was so tickled in my life.
Interviewer: “Did they make any effort to get you to stay on?”
They wanted us to come back and play, but we had a schedule and we couldn’t do it and
the league didn’t like that at all, not at all
Interviewer: “Was that the last time you were playing on organized ball?”
Yes, that was the very last time and then I decided to hang it up.
Interviewer: “Now, when you were working at Northrop etc., did people know
anything about what you had done in the past in these different leagues and
things?”
During that time they didn’t know because the movie is what made it, if it wasn’t for the
movie you wouldn’t have known about the All American Girls, you wouldn’t have
known about the professional softball league because actually, they could have taken the
softball league instead of the all Americans and made the same movie, but they didn’t,
but people didn’t realize that there was two leagues or even one league, especially the
western people, the Midwest knew it and in Chicago they knew it, but that was it, the
11
�south didn’t know it, nobody knew it until Penny Marshall decided to make the movie.
27:54
Interviewer: “How did you wind up hooked up with this organization that you
played on one team for a short length of time?”
They made the movie and they asked me to come and be in the movie, so I was in it when
the old timers were at the end and what have you and that was the reason.
Interviewer: “Did you know a number of the people who were in the league?”
Oh yes, because I played softball with them and baseball and what have you. I have
known quite a few of them for years.
Interviewer: “At the time you were doing all these things, playing in these leagues
or for that matter going into some of your jobs at Northrop, did you see yourself as
a pioneer or were you just taking care of yourself?”
Nobody did, nobody did until after the movie again. The movie was the making of
everybody and even when you mention that you played in the all American or the
National league they don’t know what you’re talking about and could care less, now they
care, it’s amazing. 29:00
Interviewer: “What do you think of sort of the state of women’s sports today? Do
you see yourself as being part of a larger trend?”
I think it’s the most wonderful thing in the world, it has given all the girls the opportunity
of scholarships, it’s not that they’re going to be great professional athletes, but it gives
them the opportunity to go to college and that’s what I’m thrilled about. It gives the girls
the opportunity to take the right step in their lives, whichever step that is. They have a
choice. And thank God that happened; we’re so thrilled about it. 29:33 Before it was the
good old boys and let’s face it, all we were supposed to do is stay home and put on our
aprons and have kids.
Interviewer: “How do you think your life would have gone if you hadn’t hooked up
with organized softball?”
What would have happened? I would have probably gone on to college and become a PE
teacher. That’s exactly what I would have done. That was my goal in life because I
didn’t think there was any chance to go and play professional softball or baseball, but it
was there and gosh, how lucky we were, how lucky we were.
Interviewer: “Is that what gave you the connections that enabled you to go into
Northrop? Did these people know you from that?”
No, no, I was in a function or something—I think I was giving a speech—I don’t know
what in the world I was doing, anyway he came up to me and he said, “I need you”, and I
12
�said, “what do you mean you need me?” He said, “I’m da, da, da, da, and I want you to
come to work at Northrop”, and I said, “well, I’m going to go to college”, and he said,
“no, I want you to come to Northrop because I’m going to give you a good job and I’m
going to open the door for you”, so maybe he saw something that maybe he thought I was
a leader or something, that’s what I thought. 30:54
Interviewer: “If you were at a function and giving a speech, was this somehow in
conjunction with what you had been doing already?”
No, no I don’t know what the heck I was giving the speech about, I was giving a speech
about—heck, I can’t remember what it was, but I was giving a little speech. I don’t know
what it was, maybe about going to college—that’s what it was, I was going to go to
college and what my career was going to be and what I was going to become, I think that
was it. 31:19
Interviewer: “How do you think your time in these organized leagues affect you or
change you? Did you grow up some because of this or learn things—that whole
experience of going out to Chicago and all of that?”
Yeah, it taught me a great deal because I had never even been away from my mother
overnight to a girls party or sleep out or go anywhere to visit anybody, that was the first
time and I learned a great deal and it was quite exciting and when they say they put the
ropes around the suitcases, well I had ropes around my suitcase and I took off. 31:55
Gosh, I thought I was in hog heaven when I landed in Chicago and they picked me up.
The buildings wow.
Interviewer: “Although there was that part there where you had to barricade
yourself in the hotel room when you got there, but the young woman who did that is
not the same person exactly that the fellow from Northrop spotted and said, “I need
you”, so something happened between there.”
Well that was a learning process, absolutely a learning process and It’s not as easy as you
think, I figured it out and when I went to Northrop I realized that if I really wanted to
make it, I had to devote myself to it and quit being a kid anymore and quit fooling
around. I still fool around, but anyway that’s the way it is. 32:43
Interviewer: “Well, it makes for a very good story and thanks for coming in and
telling it to me today.”
Hey, I hope you appreciate it.
13
�
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
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The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
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Text
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
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RHC-58_MBlair
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Blair, Maybelle (Interview transcript and video), 2009
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Blair, Maybelle
Description
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Maybelle Blair was born in 1927 in Longvale, California. Before joining the All American Girl's Baseball League she played baseball with her brothers at the age of nine and then later in 1942 at age twelve began playing organized softball. At about this time she played for a semi-pro league out of Burbank, California and then with the Pasadena Ramblers from 1943 to 1946 who she toured with playing games at army bases for servicemen. Her semi-pro career ended in 1947 when the Chicago Cardinals scouted her and signed her to be a pitcher. In 1948, Max Carey signed her to play on the Peoria Redwings as a pitcher. Due to an injured leg, her career was cut short and she only played a month with the Peoria Redwings. Later, she went on to play 2nd base for the New Orleans Jacks for a month in 1951. Her career ended with them ended when she was forced to choose between playing softball and giving up her job driving VIPs for Northrop Airport; she chose to quit softball. Blair wraps by mentioning how the All American Girls Professional Baseball League changed her perspective on the course of her life.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
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Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Illinois
Women
Language
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eng
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
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Moving Image
Text
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2009-09-26
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ce860846beff3ebbe53d4a60fe0b3471.m4v
48bf5617fbbff45352ca9b541e3a8b13
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e88e66c80c051d0b04a2df4f41026af7.pdf
39631be6f5556f7b91ed66ab656b3663
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Shirley Burkovich
Length of Interview: (00:41:38)
Interviewed by: James Smither PhD., Grand Valley State University Veterans History
Project.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer February 8, 2010
Interviewer: “Shirley, can you start by telling us a little bit about your background,
where and when you were born?”
I was born in Pittsburg, PA and raised in a town just east of Pittsburg, Swissvale, went to
school there and graduated from there.
Interviewer: “What did your family do for a living?”
My mom was a housewife and my dad worked in the steel mills.
Interviewer: “You were born in the early thirties---did your father keep his job in
the steel mills as you were growing up?”
Yes, he worked there all the time. 1:57
Interviewer: “The town that you were actually in, was it an industrial town, a
smaller one?”
A small town just outside of Pittsburg, a suburb of the city.
Interviewer: “When did you start playing ball?”
I started playing ball, I guess, as long as I can remember. When I was small, we had a
large back yard and that’s how I started, by hitting the ball up against the house, doing it
that way and then I graduated to the vacant lots and the streets and alleys of the city.
2:31
Interviewer: “Whom did you play with?”
Well, as you know, at that time there were no girl’s leagues or organizations, so you just
went out and picked up a bat and a glove and you went to a vacant lot and you picked up
with the boys. It was always the boys.
Interviewer: “There weren’t any other girls that would play?”
Not in my area, there were a couple girls that lived in an adjacent town that played, but in
my city there was just me.
Interviewer: “Did you have brothers that played?”
1
�I had a brother and he did play ball. He played in high school and then he played softball
on men’s fast softball, so I kind of hung around with them as the “bat girl”. 3:21 They
used me to shag fly balls because then they could stand up there and bat all day. I was
the shagging of the fly balls and ten at the end of their session; I got a chance to hit.
Interviewer: “So you got reasonable practice at a variety of different things?”
A lot of practice.
Interviewer: “Now, did you do sports in high school?”
No sports in high school, at least not for the girls. 3:44 I didn’t really do anything, we
got to use the gym during our lunch hour because that’s when the boys didn’t use it, so
the girls would go on there and play basketball.
Interviewer: “The school didn’t have girls teams at all?”
The school did not have girls teams.
Interviewer: “How did you first hear about women in baseball?”
My brother is the one that actually heard about it, not heard about it, but read about it. He
read about it in the newspaper that they were holding tryouts for the “All American girls
Professional Baseball League” and he came to me and he said, “hey, what do you think
about this? They’re holding tryouts for a baseball league.” And oh gosh, I said, “I don’t
know”, I was sixteen years old and I said, “I don’t know if I’m good enough to play.”
4:35 He said, “Well, let’s go down and see”, so he took the day off of work and we went
down to the park where they were holding the tryouts and we sat in the stands and the
two of us kind of critiqued the girls playing and he said, “what do you think?” I said,
“well, I think I’ll give it a try” and he said, “good”, so I went down and had the tryout
and a couple of weeks later I got a telegram to report to spring training in Cape
Girardeau, Missouri. 5:11
Interviewer: “What did they have you do in the tryouts?”
For the tryouts, it was hit, run, throw, things like that, just an overall example of what you
were capable of I’m assuming. How fast you ran, how well you threw, how your batting
was.
Interviewer: “How long did they spend on you?”
We were there for a couple of days because there were a lot of girls there. I would say
that there were over a hundred girls at the tryout. Most of them were from the Pittsburg
area, but we did have some girls that came from out of state—West Virginia, Ohio,
adjoining states, so we had a big turnout. It was a couple—if I remember, it was a twoday tryout. 6:07
Interviewer: “When exactly was this?”
2
�This was in 1948, late “48” in the late summer of “48” and then I didn’t actually report
for spring training until April of “49”, the next year.
Interviewer: “Were you in high school at that time?”
I was still in school and actually, when I got the telegram to go, that’s school time, so my
mom went to the school and we talked to the principle and explained the situation and
asked if it would be possible for me to leave school, because it was two months, April
and May, because school was out in June, so April and May. He looked at my grades and
he said, “ok”, but that they would have to send the lessons along with me and I would
have to complete those lessons back for those two months, which I was willing to do for
that opportunity. 7:28 Then my mom, she said, “now wait a minute, I don’t know about
this All American Girls Baseball League, I never heard of that”, and here I’m going out
of state down to some Cape Girardeau in Missouri which we never heard of and she said,
“I don’t know if I just want to let you go by yourself”. My dad was working, my brother
was working, so she bought a ticket and went on the train with me and we went down to
Cape Girardeau and she met the chaperone and met the manager and everything and she
stayed for two days and saw that everything was on the up and up and that they weren’t
taking me down to some place that she didn’t think was proper. 8:20 Then she left, left
me there and actually the chaperone was Helen Campbell, who you were going to
interview in California maybe.
Interviewer: “I would like to be able to.”
It would be wonderful if you could.
Interviewer: “We have interviewed quite a few members of the league at this point
and may of them were very young when they first signed up, high school age. I
think you are about the first one that had a parent enterprising enough to go along
and check it all out first. 8:56 Were you, at this point, assigned to a specific team
or were you going to a general spring training where they would assign you?”
I just went to a general training and then I was assigned to the “Muskegon Lassies”.
Interviewer: “Tell me a little bit about the spring training itself. Do you have any
idea why they were in Cape Girardeau?”
No, that is what the telegram said, so that’s where I went. 9:22
Interviewer: “It may have been less expensive than Florida. What was the weather
like when you were there?”
It was nice as I remember. It was—I don’t remember unusual weather.
Interviewer: “It might have been better than Pittsburg anyway.”
Probably.
Interviewer: “What did they have you do there, at spring training?”
3
�Training, It’s like most spring trainings, I would think, we had practice everyday, betting
practice, fielding practice, they put you in different positions to how you worked in
outfield, infield, batting things like that, running the bases, sliding, just general things and
as we went along we had coaches, managers that would critique our performances I’m
sure, because they would come up to you and say, “ok now, maybe if you held the bat a
little bit this way”, or did this or did that or fielding, they hit you a hundred ground ball or
something to see how your arm was. 10:39
Interviewer: “What did you think of the quality of the players you were seeing
there?”
They were better players than what I was playing against when I was playing in vacant
lots and even the boys and that’s whom I was playing against. These girls were good, no
question about it. I realized that I was in touch competition and if I was going to make
this team, I was going to have to perform. 11:06
Interviewer: “Did you feel you sort of had to work harder than some of them or
were they all working pretty hard?”
I think everybody was working hard and I think all the girls were dedicated. We had a
strong passion for the game, everybody was trying to do their best, trying to make the
team and it was a very competitive spring training. You could see everyone you were
playing against –you knew what you had to compete against and what you had to beat.
11:45
Interviewer: “What proportion of the people trying out actually made it onto the
teams?”
That I don’t remember how many out of that group that went to spring training. I know
we all separated and I went to Muskegon and some of the other girls went to different
teams and I don’t know who didn’t make it or was cut, but I’m sure some of them were
because I was told that this was like another tryout. It was spring training, but it was
another tryout. 12.23
Interviewer: “The movie version of things, at least in that first season, they had
scene where people get to see names up on a board of who makes it and who doesn’t.
You didn’t see anything like that?”
I didn’t see anything like that.
Interviewer: “How did you find out where you were assigned?”
They just came to you and told you that you were assigned to the Muskegon lassie team
and they gave you a ticket to Muskegon and you got on the train and you went.
Interviewer: “Had you ever heard of Muskegon, Michigan before?”
Nope.
4
�Interviewer: “What impression did you have of the place when you got there?”
Well, like I said, this was the first time that I had actually been away from home by
myself and it was an experience for me at sixteen years old.
A lot of new friends, new people, so it was an experience for me. 13:14
Interviewer: “Where did they put you up once you got there?”
When I got to Muskegon, I met the chaperone who was Helen, and the chaperone
assigned the girls to host homes and there were two of us to a home and we roomed
together, so she had a place set up for each of us.
Interviewer: “Was it a nice place to stay? Did they treat you well?”
Oh, the people were wonderful, I tell you, they couldn’t have been nicer, it was almost
like being at home. 14:00 They took care of us, they made sure we had—I remember
when we came home from road trips there would be a note on the table telling us there
were sandwiches in the refrigerator and for us to help ourselves. They were just so nice
and they came to the games and supported us and it was just very homey, if we needed
anything—that type of thing. 14:25
Interviewer: “Did you stay with Muskegon for that whole season?”
Yes, I stayed with Muskegon for the whole 1949 season and then after that season, they
asked—they didn’t ask, they told you who you go to and I went on a touring team, which
was the Springfield Sally’s and the Chicago Colleens that toured the United States, the
eastern part of the United States. 14:54 The two teams toured together and we traveled
into the east.
Interviewer: “I’ll get into the barnstorming, but I want to go back to Muskegon in
the meantime. What kind of ball park facility did you have there to play in?”
Well, it was a nice stadium. The only thing I remember about it is from the dugouts back
to the club house, you went under the stands and I can remember, I was a little bit taller
than most girls, so I had to stoop going under the stands, I remember that, but it was a
nice ball park.
Interviewer: “What were the stands like? Were they open bleachers and could
people throw things down on you when you went by?”
Oh no, we were under the stands. 15:51 It was under the stands.
Interviewer: “At that point how many different teams were you playing? Were
there five or six in the league at that time or was it bigger?”
Let’s see—I think there were eight teams at that time, in the league.
Interviewer: “Now, how well did Muskegon do that year?”
5
�We didn’t do well. As I remember. I don’t remember exactly, but I know we weren’t in
the championship series. We weren’t in the championship game. 16:25
Interviewer: “Now when you were playing, what position or positions would you
play?”
I was, I guess you call it, a utility player. I played infield, I played the outfield, so I kind
of filled a hole somewhere. Whenever someone wanted to sit down or someone was hurt
or whatever, I played that, so I played right field, left field, center field and I played all
the infield positions. Played first base, second base.
Interviewer: “Did you ever try pitching?”
I didn’t remember pitching, but my last year in Rockford, I noticed in one of the stats that
it said that I pitched one game. I think it was a no decision and it was just a few innings,
so it must have been one of those games that were runaways and they just put me in, but
in the league, anybody that could throw hard, they had them on the mound to see. Of
course, some of didn’t have the control, we threw hard, but we didn’t have the control
and that maybe we threw hard, but we didn’t have the control. 17:34
Interviewer: “Did you have a favorite position of the ones you took?”
You know I really didn’t, I was just so happy to have the opportunity to play. I didn’t
care where I played, just put me on.
Interviewer: “ In that first season, how regularly did you play?”
I played, I thought, pretty regularly. I was in and out of the lineup, some games I didn’t,
if no one was out or hurt, I didn’t play, but I got into a few games.
Interviewer: “How many position players would they normally have on one of these
teams?”
Well, we carried eighteen players I think, on the roster.
Interviewer: “All players including the pitchers?”
Yes, the regular roster was about eighteen players.
Interviewer: “Then you would have a regular opportunity to get in there.”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Did they do much in the way of pinch hitting or pinch running or
relieving people for defensive reasons and that kind of stuff? Were the
replacements made during the game?”
Oh yes, like you said, pinch hitting and pinch runners and things like that. Position
changes 18:44
Interviewer: “How good of a hitter were you?”
6
�Well, you know, I wasn’t a homerun hitter, I wasn’t a power hitter, I was more of a
singles hitter, more of a hit and run. I got a lot of run signs. I got a lot of sacrifice signs.
Move the runner along, hit to right, move a runner from second to third, that type of
hitting.
Interviewer: “Did you strike out much?”
I don’t know, I probably had my share.
Interviewer: “If you’re a good bat handler then you’re getting---“
I was pretty good at bunting; I was able to lay down a pretty fair and decent bunt I think.
19:33 Like I said, I was more of a placement—placing the ball rather than a homerun
hitter or a power hitter.
Interviewer: “Now, at the time you came into the league, how strict were they at
enforcing all the rules that they had come up with at the start?”
Well, as far as strictness in enforcing the rules, if you played for Helen, you followed the
rules. She ran a tight ship. Coming out of the marines, as a sergeant in the marines, she
was pretty strict with us and especially the teenagers and those of us that were teenagers.
The older girls, she probably wasn’t as strict with and that, but those of us that were
teenagers, she kept a pretty good watch on us. 20:32 I remember one time—we were
allowed to go out if some of the fans or someone would ask us out for dinner or
whatever. This young fellow asked me if he could take me out to dinner and I said to
him, “you will have to ask the chaperone”, because us teenagers had to ask permission
and he said, “that’s fine, that’s not a problem”, so I told Helen that we were going to go,
so he went in and talked to Helen and he came out and he was smiling and he said to me,
“I didn’t want to marry you, I just wanted to take you out to dinner”, so I think she gave
him the third degree. That’s just some of way it was. 21:30
Interviewer: “Did he, in fact, take you out at that point?”
Oh yes.
Interviewer: “Good, she didn’t scare him away completely then?”
Oh no, but it was a funny situation.
Interviewer: “Now, were you traveling around by bus at that point on your road
trips?”
Yes, by bus.
Interviewer: “What was that experience like?”
The buses were really nice. Some people use to say, “how did you do it? Those long bus
rides and all?” You know, when you’re sixteen years old and you’re doing something
you like to do, that was the least of my concerns, the bus ride. It was fun, it was a lot of
camaraderie with the girls, we had good times, we had a lot of laughs, it was a joking
time and just a lot of fun, so I never minded the bus rides. 22:23
7
�Interviewer: “I guess that was a good thing because you wound up in the barn
storming thing the next year. Tell us a little bit about how that worked and what
that was like.”
Ok, that, we would go into a city for usually a three game series and would play three
games in that city and after that we would move on to another etc. That was strictly
living out of a suitcase for those months. Doing your laundry in the hotel Laundromat
and things like that. We would stay at motels and places like that and then the bus ride
and so that was, like I say, more living out of a suitcase than when you were on a team
like Muskegon where you were home and then on the road. 23:16
Interviewer: “If you had to pick, which one would you like better?”
It didn’t matter to me, I was playing baseball that was my passion, that’s what I love to
do and either one of those worked fine for me.
Interviewer: “How far a field did you travel when you were on this barnstorming
tour?”
We traveled through the eastern part of the United States mostly, it was just a month or
two before the season ended, I broke my ankle, so that ended my season there, but it was
mostly the eastern part of the United States, through Ohio, Maryland, West Virginia,
Pennsylvania, places like that. 24:09
Interviewer: “Did you go farther south? Did you go down to Florida or over to
Louisiana or places like that?”
No, we were more in the eastern, kind of mid Atlantic area.
Interviewer. “I guess there were two seasons where those teams went around on a
barnstorming tour. Yours was the second one.”
Right, the first one in 1949. I was not on, but I on in 1950.
Interviewer: “Did you make it up as far as New York city when you were doing
that?”
That’s what I was just going to say, that about a month or so before we got there, I broke
my ankle and I missed playing in Yankee Stadium, they played in Yankee Stadium and I
missed that. 24:57
Interviewer: “Did you go to some big cities when you were on this tour or mostly
small ones?”
They were mostly small ones, all small cities.
Interviewer: “What kind of crowds did you get when you went to these places?”
We got good crowds. Attendance wise, I don’t know, a thousand, tow thousand, but we
had good crowds. We drew very well, we were advertised, you know it was advertised,
8
�and we did radio interviews and things like that, so you know, they knew we were there
and I think too it was maybe a curiosity thing where people just came out to see if we
could really play ball. 25:43
Interviewer: Did you do a lot of publicity things of different kinds? Were you
interviewed on the radio yourself?”
Yes, they use to interview us that was part of our job, to promote the league and so yes,
we did radio interviews, newspaper interviews, because they would have pictures in the
paper and they would have advertisements in the paper, so yes, we did a lot of PR stuff.
26:13
Interviewer: “You said you broke your ankle, now how did you break your ankle?”
It was a—it rained that day and we played that evening. Of course the field was covered,
the infield was covered, but the grass was wet and because of our bases, which were
shorter than the ninety-foot men’s bases, it brought the bases just to the edge of the grass
of the infield. I was sliding into third base and the grass was wet and my spike caught in
the grass and I slid and you know that wet grass wrapped around that spike and my foot
stopped, but I went. 27:02
Interviewer: “Now, once that happened, did they send you home?”
Yes, I was in the hospital for a couple of days while they set the ankle and then I went on
home.
Interviewer: “Had you gone home between those seasons? Did you go home on the
off-season?
Oh, yes, but during the season, no.
Interviewer: “So, the ankle heals eventually, did you back in then for another
year?”
The next year in 1951, I went back and I was assigned to Rockford, the peaches. I spent
my last season with Rockford.
Interviewer: “Was that a better team than the Muskegon team?”
Well, they were—Rockford was kind of the crème of the crop, if you want to say, but
they were a good team, yes. That was a great experience, I played with some great ball
players on that team, but that Muskegon team, I don’t want to downgrade them because,
listen, all the girls that played in that league were terrific, just wonderful, they had to be
the best ball players that we had in the states. 28:25
Interviewer: “Sure, anybody on any major league baseball team today is going to
play a whole lot better than me, even when I was a lot younger. “Who were some of
the best players that you played alongside?”
9
�Oh gosh, Dotty Kavichek, Shorty Prior, Doris Sams, Mickey McGuire, Jean Fout, just
like I say, you could just go on and on with these girls, they were just good ball players.
28:58
Interviewer: “now, when you were with Rockford, did Rockford make the playoffs
that year?”
I can’t remember if we made the playoffs.
Interviewer: “I think South Band won the championship that year.”
I think south Bend, but I don’t think Rockford made the playoffs that year. I don’t know,
maybe I was a jink to them. The teams that I played for, we never made the playoffs.
Interviewer: “Now, in Rockford, when you were living there, did you have the same
kind of a set-up as you had in Muskegon?”
Same set-up as Muskegon. We lived in host homes and had a roommate and played, but
the people in Rockford, again just like Muskegon; the people were just wonderful to us,
just wonderful. 29:48
Interviewer: “Did you have a chaperone as tough as the first one?”
No, no, I don’t think there was anyone like Helen. Helen had to be the—I only had three
chaperones, the ones from the touring team and Helen and then Dotty Green in Rockford,
but Helen had to be my favorite, my favorite.
Interviewer: “In general, how well did you adjust to the rules and the expectations
of the league? Was it fairly natural for you did you or not?”
Well, adapting to them was easy because I didn’t want to do anything wrong, anything to
get me off the team and you know, some of the girls would miss curfew and things like
that, but there was no way that I was ever going to do that. I wasn’t ever going to do
anything that would jeopardize my chance to play baseball, so I followed the rules to the
letter. 30:54
Interviewer: “You were probably happy that you had somebody that was very clear
about what the rules were?”
Yes, probably.
Interviewer: “Now you only played in the league for three years, was it your own
choice not to come back for 1952?”
Yes, in 1951, I could see that the league was not going to last. Things were—the crowds
were not as good and a lot of the teams were in financial trouble and I had an opportunity
to get a job at that time and I had to decide between that opportunity to take that job or go
back for maybe another one season or maybe two, I didn’t know how long it was going to
last and so I thought, well, I think I better set myself up for job that I had a little security.
32:04
10
�Interviewer: “What job did you take?”
I had a chance to go to work for the telephone company and I went down and interviewed
for the telephone company and got the position and went to work for the telephone
company. I spent thirty years with them and retired in 1983. It probably was the best
decision that I made.
Interviewer “Now where were you working for the telephone company?”
In California. I got time—after the 1951 season, I finished the 1951 season, I came to
California and I spent the next year just kind of getting my priorities together—what am I
going to do? In 1953 I took a job with the telephone company and stayed on with them.
33:03
Interviewer: “What prompted you to go to California in the first place?”
I had family out there. My brothers and sister were living out there at the time and I liked
it. I had been out there in 1948 for a vacation and I liked it and so when I finished
playing ball I thought, “I think I’ll go back to California”.
Interviewer: “during the time that you were actually playing, did you have any
kind of sense that you were doing something kind of unusual or significant that
women were out there doing this sort of thing or were you just focused on playing
the game?
Playing the game. You know when we—when I first went into the league, I thought that
this had to be the greatest thing that ever happened to me and I didn’t care about anything
except playing and having that opportunity, so as far as thinking to myself that this is
something special, I never did. In fact until the day left the league, I never thought it
was anything special, I didn’t see any need to talk about it or tell anybody. 34:24
Someone would say, “you played baseball”, well, some people say, ‘who cares”, and
most people thought it was softball and everything, so it was just never anything that was
brought up in conversations or whatever, so it just went by the wayside as something you
did, it was over with and even though it was something that I thought was going to be my
career. I was sixteen years old and I thought I could play until I was thirty-five or forty
and thought it was my career. I planned on nothing else, I didn’t go on to college, didn’t
do anything and I thought that it was my career and when I quit, I thought “that was it, I
did it and it’s done”. 35:17
Interviewer: “After that you go to work and what kind of work did you do for the
phone company?”
I started out as an operator and then my last year, and I went through several departments,
and ended up in the engineering department when I retired.
Interviewer: “You got a career for yourself and you’re out in California, which is a
somewhat kind of progressive place, and you go into the sixties and the seventies,
you got a women’s movement going and the push for things like Title Nine and all
kinds of stuff going on, were you paying much attention to any of that, or were you
11
�thinking of how the women’s baseball league related to that or were you not putting
those pieces together at that time?” 36:00
We started working with other ex-major league ball player on free clinics for girls and
boys. The clinics use to be strictly for the boys and then we started going out and saying
in these clinics, “girls and boys”, and there was a group of us, some ex-dodgers and exAngels that they put together this group called “Sports Educators of America”, and we
went out, this was just in the Southern California area, and we would go out and do these
free baseball clinics for the kids and we would try to incorporate education and sports.
Telling the kids that education is just as important because you ask the kids, “who wants
to be a major league ball player?” Well, everybody raises their hand, so then you say to
then, “well, all right, there are 700 positions in major league baseball, what if you don’t
make it, then what?” so we tell them that they’ve got to have something to fall back on,
so we start stressing education in sports to these kids trying to encourage them to stay in
school and have a back-up just in case they don’t make it in the baseball world. 37:27 I
can always relate to that because that’s what happened to me. I thought baseball was
always going to be my career and I didn’t plan for anything else. Fortunately, I got a job
at the telephone company and at that time the companies were more like families. They
weren’t like they are today where your just a number. The telephone company was like a
family, so I had the opportunity to work for them, but to now days not have a back-up, so
that’s what we have been doing now for the last ten or fifteen years, going out to these
clinics and working with young people. 38:19
Interviewer: “How did you wind up hooking up with the men players, but I guess
this is something that maybe happened after the movie “A League of Their Own”
came out?
Right.
Interviewer: “How important was the movie in terms of drawing attention to that
past or having you revisit it or think about it again?”
The movie was everything. Had it not been for the movie we would have still been
obscure. The Cooperstown, that to the ball players, that Cooperstown event was, as far as
I’m concerned, was the most important thing, to be recognized by the Hall of Fame
men’s organization and to be recognized by them in their facility. It was the greatest
thing that ever could have happened to us. 39:19 That was just ball players that had
that, but when the movie came out, that brought it out to the public, brought it out to the
world and that’s what brought us out to the public eye. If it hadn’t been for Penny
Marshal and that movie, we would have known what we thought with the hall of Fame,
but the public would not have known, so yes, the movie was everything.
Interviewer: “What do you think you took out of that experience of playing
professional ball? Did it change you?”
12
�Not only did it change me, but I learned so much about team work, camaraderie, trust in
people, it was just a wonderful experience and I don’t think I could have gotten that from
any other profession that I would have gotten into like I got from that league. 40:33
Interviewer “I’m not sure how you really could in exactly the same way. There
wasn’t anything else like it and for a very long time after. We now have the WNBA
etc., but that’s much more modeled along the way these modern media oriented
teams and things are done. The kind of experience and the closeness that you had as
a group and that sort of thing may be something that didn’t really repeat it’s self in
other places.
I don’t think so. I got so much satisfaction out of the league and we still, as you see, we
still have friendships that have lasted for sixty years. 42:21
Interviewer: “What was it like coming to the reunions and getting involved with
this group and seeing people that maybe you had played with or trained with and
after all those years, there they were again?
My first reunion was—they started earlier in Chicago and I never went to any of those
because I was in California and I just never went, but in 1988 they had a reunion in
Scottsdale Arizona and that was kind of right next door, so I thought it was a good
opportunity for me to go over to Arizona and just—well, I haven’t missed one since and
it has just been such a wonderful experience. 42:08 The first time , that was the first
time seeing these gals after, at that time, forty years and just the expressions on our faces
when we met each other and saw each other for the first time, I just can’t explain it, how
it was.
Interviewer: “It sounds like it was a remarkable experience on the whole and you
tell your story well, so thank you for coming in.
You’re welcome. 42:38
13
�
Dublin Core
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Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
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Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
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RHC-58_SBurkovich
Title
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Burkovich, Shirley (Interview transcript and video), 2009
Creator
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Burkovich, Shirley
Description
An account of the resource
Shirley Burkovich was born in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. She played softball with the neighborhood boys and her brother throughout her childhood. She first heard about the All American Girls Professional Baseball League one day when she was reading the newspaper. Her brother took her down to where they were holding tryouts; she tried out and afterwards was told to report to Cape Giradeau, Missouri for spring training. She played with the Springfield Sallies during the 1950 softball season and then was traded to the Rockford Peaches where she played out the 1951 season there. During her time in the league, her fondest memory is hitting the game-ending single to center field in 12-inning game. While with the league she played utility infield and utility outfield.
Contributor
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Smither, James (Interviewer)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Illinois
Women
Language
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eng
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
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2009-09-26
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2e33d53e7013aa24d4c7566ada18a85c.m4v
0dd3a7d8d927c1b14e437c0a135907b3
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/92c152dc2fc473078b0a4117896abf80.pdf
8b7f2d67bd3e1feebbd5eb820b289c2f
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Mary Lou Caden
Born: Oaklawn, Illinois
Resides: Hot Springs Village, Arkansas
Interviewed by: Gordon Olson on September 26, 2009 in Milwaukee, WI at the All
American Girls Professional Baseball League Reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer March 24, 2010
Interviewer: “I like to start with some basic background information. Where your
home was, where you were born, a little bit about your parents and family and then
we will ease on into baseball.”
Ok, I was born in Oak Lawn, Illinois, which now is just a suburb of Chicago and my dad
was a harness maker. He had a shop in the stockyards and he made leather goods-saddles, bridles and we boarded his rented horses out on the farm. I had seven brothers
and I was the baby and the only girl and I wasn’t spoiled—I had to fight my way through
life. My dad got killed in an accident when I was five and we moved to the city. There
were four brothers at home plus me and my mom. I was never much for feminine things
because of having all the boys around, so I more or less learned how to do everything that
a boy should learn how to do. My mother taught me how to cook, embroider, sew and
things a girl needs to know and I swore when I grew up I would never iron kitchen towels
again, which I don’t do. I competed with my brothers in sports in the neighborhood. We
didn’t have equipment like they have now and we would come home from school and
change—put your school clothes away and put on your play clothes and find a vacant lot
and go play ball or whatever was in season.
Interviewer: “And the popular kid was the one with the ball, right?” 2:14
Right. The brother closest to me, the seventh son, he wasn’t too athletic, so he was
always kind of like the last one picked for a team and he always complained to my
mother, “why doesn’t she go play with the girls?” He felt bad about that.
Interviewer: “You were picked before he was?”
Yeah, so my mom told me, she said, “you better go find someplace else to play, Tommy
feels real bad about this”, and I could understand when I got older you know, but I started
going up to the park and I had a glove, my sister-in-law got me a glove or my brother did,
and I went up to the park and started playing with the fellas who were practicing. Pretty
soon I got to play practice games with them, but I couldn’t play in the park league games,
they didn’t allow girls, but I got enough practice games in and I really enjoyed it. 3:15
Interviewer: “How old were you about?”
1
�I was about fourteen.
Interviewer: “The park had a league for boys, but nothing for girls?”
They had volleyball and dancing and stuff like that.
Interviewer: “Not your favorite activities.”
No.
Interviewer: “You’re about fourteen at this point, so how do you get from there to
playing on a team? What was the transition?” 4:45
The athletic director of the park had a couple of girls ask him about playing softball, so
he got the advertisements in the paper and he got enough girls come out to start softball
teams, fast pitch, but I still played with the boys whenever I got a chance. The Chicago
Daily News hired Rogers Hornsby to go out to the parks and conduct baseball clinics.
When he came to Marquette Park I was out there with the fellas. They told everybody to
be sure to show up because they got a big shot coming to teach you how to play and
being the only girl, I got a lot of attention and a lot of publicity in the neighborhood.
Rogers Hornsby was a friend of William Wrigley, who started the girls league in 1943,
now I’m talking 1946, so he went back and told Wrigley about the fella in Marquette
Park that had girls playing and they contacted this fella, his name was Lenny Zintak, and
they got him to organize farm teams. 6:03 He sent out notices to all the parks for
tryouts. They had tryouts on the north side of Chicago, a tryout on the south side and he
had over 120 girls show up. He picked out the best and he had four teams, two on the
north side and two on the south side. We played twice a week; we played anywhere they
had lights, sometimes we would play on a Sunday afternoon if we could find a place with
lights. 6:31
Interviewer: “You couldn’t play on Saturdays because the boys were all playing?”
Saturdays were usually real busy with other activities, so he tried to keep it one week
night plus Sunday afternoon. We got a lot of experience and we had a lot of fun doing it,
we had chaperones, the same as the league did. In fact, my chaperone picked me up
because I was only fifteen and I couldn’t drive and another gal from the south side was
only thirteen, she picked her up, and that girl went on to play one year with South Bend,
but her mom thought she was too young for all that traveling, so she brought her back
home. 7:24
Interviewer: “I bet that was hard for her.”
Yea, it was. I got an offer to go to Cuba spring training in 1947 and boy I was in seventh
heaven when I opened the envelope and read this. I showed my mom I was going to
Cuba and she looked at it and said, “that’s in April”, and I said, “Yea” and she said,
“Well, you’re in school until June”, and she wouldn’t sign, so that was the end of that.
Interviewer: “How old were you at this point?”
2
�Fifteen, so old fashioned family—you live in my house, you follow my rules and we did
that. I played every year in the farm system and got a lot of experience. I started out
playing shortstop and then I broke my ankle, never did learn how to slide right, and I
played outfield and when they went to side arm and overhand pitching, Lenny switched
me to pitching because I have a strong arm. 8:25
Interviewer: “You’ve been a shortstop for one thing, so you had more experience
throwing overhand than maybe even some of the underhand pitchers had.”
From playing outfield too. I graduated high school in 1949 and had an appendicitis
attack, so I was able to hold that off until after I graduated. I had a job at the First
National Bank of Chicago while I was still a senior in high school, because it was a part
time job at the bank and I had to wait until I could be covered by hospitalization to have
my appendix taken out, because we didn’t have money or a doctor and that was in 1950.
9:12 I managed to play the tail end of the season in Chicago in 1950 and then my
manager, Mitch Skupien, was contacted to come up and manage the Grand Rapids
Chicks, so he came over to the house. He was Polish and I’m Bohemian and he could
talk to my mother and they understood each other and he said, “ma, I’m going to take
Mary Lou with me to Grand Rapids, she’s going to pitch for my team”, so mom said,
“ok, go ahead”. Even though I was of age, you still waited for your parent’s permission
to do these crazy things, because a girl playing baseball was crazy. 9:52 I went up to
Grand Rapids in 1951 and I played there in 1951, 52 and 53 and they traded my contract
to Fort Wayne because they had dropped down to four teams and they wanted to try to
even off the teams. They sent me a contract and they said, “we pooled the players and
you will now be playing for Fort Wayne and you will be making sixty dollars a month
less”, and I said, “not on my boat”, because I had a good job at the First National Bank, I
was a bookkeeper.
Interviewer: “The rest of the year and the bank gave you release time all summer to
play baseball?”
I had a real terrific boss, he was sports minded and I’d leave in April and come back at
the end of September and it worked out fine for three years, but when they wanted to cut
me sixty dollars, I was making more money at the bank and being Bohemian that meant a
lot to me. 10:57 I said, “no way, I’m retiring”, and I didn’t play in 1954, which was the
last year the league survived.
Interviewer: “By the end of 1954 there wasn’t a lot left.”
They weren’t making—they were losing money.
Interviewer: “Let’s back up a little bit and use that outline to talk about some
specifics. Among other things, what’s your recollection—you did some spring
training before the season started. First of all, where did you do the spring training
and what was it like?” 11:34
The first year we trained in Battle Creek, Michigan I think.
3
�Interviewer: “So it started a little bit later—we think of spring training now as
almost a winter activity.”
It was April and I had the distinction of being the only Grand Rapids Chicks that gained
weight at spring training. We met for breakfast, they brought sandwiches and milk to the
ballpark at lunchtime and we met for training table in the evening. Well, a lot of the girls
didn’t eat oatmeal; they wanted eggs and stuff, so I said, “Aren’t you going to eat that
oatmeal? Pass it down”. At dinner a lot of them didn’t eat salad, so they would pass
them down and I gained ten pounds and Mitch, the manager, he said, “how did you sneak
out for hamburgers and milk shakes and stuff?” I said, “I didn’t spend a penny, I didn’t
spend a penny”. 12:40 My teammates knew it.
Interviewer: “There was other food to be had and that’s good. They put you
through a pretty rigorous spring training then. You were up for breakfast and then
out on the field. You stayed at the field at noon?”
We stayed at the field at noon and I think we had an hour break. We sat in the bleachers
and ate our lunch and then we started out again. I worked pitching, naturally, and then
we would all do calisthenics together in the morning and then we would break for infield,
outfield, pitching practice, and then the pitchers would run and we would shag fly balls
while the outfield was throwing in to first, second, third, you know, with the regular
fielders and stuff, but we were kept busy all day long. 13:34
Interviewer: “ The coaches you were dealing with, these are former major leaguers
in a lot of cases?”
Major leaguers.
Interviewer: “Men?”
Yea.
Interviewer: “They had experience with baseball and coaching, so they gave you
pretty much the same routine, pretty much, that you would expect to find in
professional baseball at other levels.”
True, and the next year, 1952, Woody English was our manager. They started out the
season, because English accepted a contract from Muskegon, Michigan and they brought
in Jonny Gottselig, who was a former Blackhawk hockey player and for some reason he
wasn’t going to stay the whole season, so they brought in Woody English in 1952. 14:25
Woody was great, he was really great, I mean he knew baseball and he was a perfect
gentleman. People ask us about the movie, A League of Their Own and Tom Hanks, I
think Woody and what a perfect gentleman. He would walk out to the mound when I was
pitching and when I was in trouble and he would say, “M.L. how are you feeling?” He
was real concerned like a father would be and when they had Tom Hanks portraying this
drunken manager, it was such a slap in the face for fellas like Woody who really did their
job and gave a hundred and ten percent. 15:06
4
�Interviewer: “You’re not the only former Chick that talks that way about Woody
English. He did his job—he was a professional too. He had a good career and then
he continued to conduct himself as a professional.
I have a letter at home—after the 1951, my fourth year, I won twelve games before I lost
one. I had a hard time winning number thirteen, so my record was 15 and 5, so in 1952,
when I got my contract, I got a little raise, but it wasn’t much and I talked to Woody and I
said, “I think I deserve more money than that”, so Woody said, “I’ll tell you what M.L., if
you win fifteen games, I’ll give you two hundred dollars”, so he wrote it out and signed it
and I still have it, it’s precious. Well, I won twelve and I lost thirteen, so I didn’t make
the two hundred. 16:03
Interviewer: “It sounds like maybe your teammates didn’t give you a lot of
support.”
Well yeha, it proves out because on my baseball card I had a nice low earned run
average, so it wasn’t a hundred percent my pitching, I had a little help losing.
Interviewer: “Yea, you can get beat one to nothing and pitch really well that’s for
sure. Do you remember your first contract and how much you got paid?”
My first contract, I got three forty five a month and then on the road, they paid our hotel
and we got dinner money, I forget what it was. 16:46
Interviewer: “Do you remember your chaperone?”
Dotty Hunter, absolutely.
Interviewer: “Was she good?”
A wonderful woman yes, 1952 we were playing in Battle Creek and you would swear it
was December—it was cold and I was pitching that night, so I lathered myself up with
red hot, sweatshirt, uniform and I went out there and I sweated up a storm warming up,
pitched a game and in between innings—the rest of me was freezing—my arms were
burning, but the rest of me was freezing. Well, I caught a cold and I kind of sluffed it
off, but it settled in my kidneys, so for I think maybe a week after I pitched, I started
feeling kind of groggy and I would sit in the dugout and fall asleep. 17:50 Dotty Hunter
came up to me one time in the locker room, I was sitting there waiting for the players to
shower, I wasn’t in any hurry, I was tired, I didn’t do anything, but I was tired. Dotty
Hunter said, “M.L. you’re not drinking are you?” I said, “no, I don’t feel good”, and she
made me go to the doctor the next day and I had to give a urine specimen and they found
out that I had a cold that had settled in my kidneys, so they gave me prescriptions and
took me to where I was boarding. I was living with a widow, she had a son and a
daughter and I was boarding there. They told her that I was sick and I medicine and she
said, “I’ll take care of her”, and she nursed me just like a mother would. 18:40 She
made me get up in the morning, drink juice, clean up, eat soup, all soft good stuff, made
me take my medicine and stuff like that and after about a week my mother called because
I hadn’t written to her every day and she didn’t know what was the matter, so she just
told her I was sick, but getting better. She knew something was wrong and Woody said
5
�to me, “you know, I was worried about you, I didn’t think you were the type that would
do something like that”.
Interviewer: “He knew something was wrong though. That was the case with a lot
of the players, wasn’t it? They lived with families?”
Oh yeah, we all did, all the cities. I know in the movie they showed all the girls living in
a boarding house, but no, that wasn’t true. Some places there would be four girls that
would stay with one family, sometimes a widow would have a couple extra bedrooms.
19:51 The ball park people, in different towns, would interview people that were
interested in putting up the girls and they picked out people that were suitable and could
pass the muster, so it worked out real well.
Interviewer: “So that was a good environment and made your mother a little more
confident that you were in good hands.”
Absolutely and I will tell you this, the gal that was my chaperone in Chicago in the farm
system, convinced my mother she had to come and see me play ball. They came down to
South Bend and South Bend had a pitcher, her name was Jean Faut, she was top notch
and about a week before we had played South Bend in Grand Rapids and I was pitching
against Jean Fout. I’m up to bat and Jean Fout throws a fastball inside and I jump back,
the next pitch she throws a curve inside and I’m thinking it’s a fastball and I’m not going
to look chicken again, so I stood there and it whacked me in the inside of my thigh, so a
week later I’m down in South Band and I’m scheduled to pitch, so I come out with the
catcher just before the game started to warm up and I was black and blue and purple and
green 21:13 and my mother’s sitting up in the stands with out chaperone and she sees
that and she says, “my god, you would think she would wash her legs”, and I didn’t know
this until I came home in September when the chaperone came to see me and told me
about it. Then she said to her, “those guys in the black, what team are they on because
they all got the same black?” I had to kind of explain baseball to her. 21:48 My mother
was forty-three when I was born, so by the time I was twenty, she was sixty-three and
there was no sports in our lifetime and there was no television, so she didn’t have the
opportunity to learn about the game of baseball.
Interviewer: “But her daughter was playing and she went to see it.” 22:06
Oh yeah.
Interviewer: “You mentioned Umpires and this is a good chance to ask you about
the Umpires in the league a little bit. How good were they and did you have any
problems with them?”
They were mostly pretty good, but we had a few that were kind of borderline. I disagreed
with one guy and I got fined ten dollars for my disagreement, but Woody paid it for me.
He said, “I know you can’t afford it, I’ll take care of it”, but it was just a call, third strike
or a ball four and I lost it, so I kind of disagreed with him.
6
�Interviewer: “When you say kind of disagreed, it sounds like maybe you got in the
Umpires face a little bit.”
Well, I walked up and I said, “why did you call that”, and he told and I said, “you’re full
of---“, and that was it. 22:59
Interviewer: “Take a seat. Do you remember the first game that you played when
you went up to Grand Rapids?”
Yes I do.
Interviewer: “Tell me about it.”
Well, I was nervous actually and I didn’t want to seem to cocky, being the new kid on the
block, but we had a lot of players that were very supportive, Connie Wisniewski, Doris
Satterfield, Alma Ziegler, Inez Voyce, Corky Olinger, short stop and when I was
warming up and when I came out you know, “Ziggy”, she was the captain of the team,
she came out to the mound and said, “ok M.L. let’s get ‘em”, like there was nothing to it
and I kind relaxed a little and as they started striking out and grounding out easy
grounders, I kind of got a little confidence and we won the game and I felt real good, but
I didn’t feel cocky. 24:09 I just felt good because the team had played good too. I
remember one game I lost and I thought, “I’m going to kill everybody before this night’s
over”, they were bootin’ the ball all over the place and “Ziggy” walked over and handed
me the ball after we finally got one out and she said, “hang in there M.L.”. You know
teammates, everybody has good nights and bad nights and it just happened that five
teammates had a bad night on the same night. 24:38
Interviewer: “They don’t go out there to deliberately miss the ball.”
No, but all and all I felt really good about it and it gave me a lot of confidence that my
teammates were behind me.
Interviewer: “What kind of a hitter were you?”
I could bunt. I really could bunt. I use to practice bunting at home. I would have
anybody I could find throw a ball so I could practice to bunt and I forget who he had
come up to teach us how to bunt. I know we had Maury Wills come out one time to
teach us how to run bases.
Interviewer: “Really?” 25:21
In Grand Rapids, I think that Woody English got him out. I’ll never forget that because I
saw Maury Wills one time at a fan fest and when it came time for the audience to ask him
questions, I asked him how he felt about base runners today and I asked him, “were you
ever uninjured?” He said, “no”. I said, “I know you were hurt a lot”, and he said, “You
played hurt”. 25:55
Interviewer: “You played hurt because you’re sliding around out there without---“
7
�If you didn’t play, there was somebody waiting to take your spot, so if you wanted to stay
in the game, you played hurt. Charlie horses, and all the gals that did a lot of sliding., but
being a pitcher, I didn’t really have to slide, but I could run bases, I was a good base
runner. I did learn and to this day I’m amazed at girls in baseball. I’ve gone out to watch
quite a few games. Fast pitch, softball, and baseball and you get there early and you sit in
the stands and you watch them practice or play. We were impressed with the idea that
you watch your opponents to find out what their weaknesses were. Lenny Zintak taught
us as kids, Mitch Skupien enforced it and Woody would always say, “did you see that she
couldn’t hit a high ball in batting practice?” You learn how to keep your mouth shut in
the dugout and pay attention to what was going on. 27:12 Today you go to a game and
watch and the girls are talking and laughing and talking to people in the stands and I
don’t know how they do it.
Interviewer: “Today you go to a game and watch major leaguers and they’re not
paying attention.”
They’re blowing bubbles and it’s kind of pathetic and especially with the men, they’re
making big money. They get caught off base and I don’t want to criticize athletes, but
give me a couple million and man I’ll show you stuff. If you’re watching a pitcher, you
can pick up their weaknesses when they’re in their stretch position. What are they doing?
Are they lifting the back heel, are they bending their knee, are they twitching their
shoulder, what are they doing signaling their going to throw home. They don’t watch
that anymore. 28:11
Interviewer: “They don’t seem to.”
I can’t blame the athletes, I blame the coaches and I blame the guy paying those salaries.
If you work for a company and you don’t do your job, the boss says, “hey, straighten up
and live right or else we got somebody else waiting for your job”, but now days they get
so hooked on the publicity and all the crazy stuff. 28:36
Interviewer: “They market them like they were in Hollywood.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “What’s the best game you ever pitched? I’m sure you remember it.
You had several good ones.”
I can’t really pin one. Any time I won a game, I felt that was the best one, but I don’t
think there was one more than any other. I had a one hitter and I never had a no hitter. I
had a one hitter and it didn’t really phase me and when the game was over they said,
“Hey M.L. you had a one hitter”, and it was no big deal. We won and that’s what
counted. 29:22
Interviewer: “Did you pitch in the playoffs? That’s a different atmosphere.”
Yea, I think we played Rockford, in fact, White Taylor owned the team and White Taylor
also owned the only factory in the United States that made wooden propellers, it was
8
�Flowtorp Corporation and he flew me and whoever would have been a relief pitcher
across the lake from Grand Rapids to Rockford because we had a game that went
overtime and I was due to pitch the next night and I think it was like eighteen hours on
the bus from Grand rapids around the lake to Rockford, so we got a plane ride across.
30:09
Interviewer: “One of the few times that players were delivered by air in the league.
I know the Flowtorp propeller company because I’m from Grand Rapids.”
Are they still in business?
Interviewer: “No, but they were through the period you’re talking about. They
made those wooden propellers, you’re absolutely right. Did you have any
interactions with the owners of the Grand Rapids Chicks?” 30:37
No, not really.
Interviewer: “How about the community? Did they expect you to go out in the
community and do any kind of appearances?”
The people were great. A lot of people would invite us over for dinner and when we had
a rainout or something, I think it was the Phillips family, they owned a jewelry store in
Grand Rapids, they had a cabin on the lake and the cabin was always available for us to
go. We would go out there fishing and have cookouts on the sand. They were really
good to us. The fans were always good to us. 31:19
Interviewer: “You had some pretty good crowds in Grand Rapids too. You would
have played at South Field, but also out of Bigelow.”
Well, Bigelow is the one that burned down. I’ve still got a picture of me and Janie Crick
climbing through the ashes looking for our uniforms and our gloves. Our stuff all burned
up and we never got a penny out of it. We had to buy our own spikes and our own
gloves.
Interviewer: “You had to get reoutfitted in a big hurry.”
I don’t know - they got uniforms from somewhere.
Interviewer: “Somebody told me, I think, that the uniforms they got had longer
skirts on them than you guys were use to, so they were difficult to play in until you
could get them tailored a little bit. That was in 1953 or something?” 32:09
No, that was—I think it was 1951.
Interviewer: “Yes, it was earlier—I was thinking it was later, but you’re right and
the story is that Bigalow was a good size field and the grandstand basically is what
burned.”
Yes, actually your clubhouse is under the grandstand, so it all burned up.
9
�Interviewer: “Uniforms and everything and you had to replace your own
equipment?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “That’s not right.”
No.
Interviewer: “How about rivals? Did Grand Rapids have any particular rivalries
with any other teams?”
Well, I always thought that South Bend was more or less our rival because it seemed to
me that they played the toughest, but it was hard to tell because a lot of the girls had
been in since 1943 and when you’re talking 1951, that’s a long time. These girls had
played together, got traded, transferred, so there was a lot of friendship going on between
them. 33:25
Interviewer: “They knew each other.”
Yeah, and you couldn’t really sense the rivalry in their actions before and after the
games. It was just during the games—everybody was business.
Interviewer: “You’re a pitcher—I got to ask a couple of questions because during
that time you were playing, pitchers had a reputation for sometimes doing a little
extra to make the ball twist and bend the way they wanted it to. Do you have any
knowledge of people working it?”
Well, you couldn’t help that, that was just nature. 34:00 You had to be careful because
if your fingers are wet that ball could slip too, so you had to know what you were doing.
Interviewer: “I forget who it was now, but someone once suggested to me that there
was one team that may have put the balls in the ice box before the game, so when
you hit them—“
That’s knowledge to me.
Interviewer: “There were suspicions?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “You didn’t do that?”
Nope.
Interviewer: “What pitches did you throw?” 34:33
My best one was my fastball because I threw straight overhand. If you throw a fastball
overhand and you hold the seams, when it comes off it’s going to hop. You talk about
curve balls—if you throw a fast pitch directly overhand and you pull down, that ball
comes in like this.
10
�Interviewer: “It gives you the impression of actually rising, it’s not, and it’s holding
its level better.”
You see it coming and it’s going like that. That was my best and I threw a heavy ball, I
threw a heavy ball.
Interviewer: “Ground balls.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Curve Ball?”
So-so, but I had a good changeup, a good changeup, but like I say, I relied on my
overhand fast pitch, it really did the job.
Interviewer: “Some people still argue that it’s the hardest pitch to hit in baseball, a
good fastball,” 35:27
I think so, because a lot of those girls, they started out pitching fast pitch underhand and
then went to sidearm, then went three quarter, and we came along and we had been
playing overhand, so we had the advantage of the experience of that pitch and they
weren’t used to that.
Interviewer: “It makes a difference.”
Sure.
Interviewer: “Who among the hitters you face do you remember?”
The toughest? I would say the Weavers.
Interviewer: “They were models for some of the players in the movie, right?”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “The sisters.” 36:20
Well Jeanie Fout, for a pitcher, she was tough when she was up to bat. I really can’t
think of their names right now. I’m seventy- eight and we’re getting a little short minded
besides short winded.
Interviewer: “You’re confronting what I heard from some of the others about these
tough hitters. Faut, people do recognize her as pretty much all around, she could
pitch and hit. How about on the “Chicks”, your own team mates?”
On the “Chicks”, Connie Wisniewski and Doris Satterfield—they were tough. Connie
had pitched for many years, but then when they went directly overhand, she didn’t want
to hack it and Sadie was just a natural hitter. Sometimes I would pitch batting practice
and boy you could be throwing them up there three quarter speed, you know for batting
practice you’re supposed to, and they were whacking them and sometimes I would get
mad and really line on in there and they would whack it. 37:47
11
�Interviewer: “The good ones can.”
Those girls were really good.
Interviewer: “Once again I’ve heard others say the same thing. For three years you
played and then you didn’t want to take a pay cut and you moved on as they say.
Did you continue playing ball though?”
Oh yes, softball in the Park District in Chicago. I played with a team that was sponsored
by Tava and we won the championship three years in a row and they asked us to move to
a different park. They wanted some fair competition. 38:28
Interviewer: “As an overhand pitcher, you had to move to a different position or
were you an Umpire?”
I went back to shortstop for softball. My first husband died in 1970 and I got remarried
in 1972 and in, I think, 1974, it was Sunday afternoon and my husband was there, I have
three daughters, and I hit a long ball trying to stretch it into a home run, but I had to stop
at third base and in the next game I made the third out and as I walked over, my oldest
daughter said to me, “Ma, you better sit down, you’re red in the face, you look like your
going to have a heart attack”, so my husband just looked at me and shook his head. It
was about a hundred degrees, it was the middle of July, so after the game I thought, “I
better hang ‘em up” 39:29
Interviewer: “Here’s your sign. Were your daughters ball players too?”
Well, they tried. I coached the church team and they tried, but I thought I was going to
have a nervous breakdown, so we didn’t play the second year. The two youngest ones
are great swimmers and the youngest got into field hockey in college and liked it.
Interviewer: “They’re athletes, just not ball players.”
They all wound up being swimmers, which I was never a swimmer, but I did take
lessons. 40:15
Interviewer: “That’s good, that’s good, so you retired from baseball and finally
from softball. Did you continue working at the bank during that time?”
I left the bank in 1962 and I went to work for the Chicago police department as a
fingerprint technician. I was working at first National Bank in downtown Chicago and
there was an ad in the paper for people to apply for a position with the Chicago police
department, so I went to the address and as long as I was a Chicagoan and I worked
thirteen years in a group—I didn’t realize that was city hall’s address and I picked up an
application for the job, filled it out and later I got a postcard to report to a high school
where they were running tests. Ten thousand people took the exams at four different high
schools in Chicago, so I took the exam on a Saturday morning and a month later I got a
card saying that I had passed the test and that I was chosen to be one of twenty-five
people that would go to the police academy to be trained. 41:44 I went to the police
12
�academy, we had to go to the board of health for a physical exam and they had a
policeman, two policemen train us in how to read and classify fingerprints and after six
weeks at the academy we went to the first district headquarters where the records were
and we started classifying and searching fingerprints and I worked there twenty eight
years until I retired. 42:15
Interviewer: “Did you crack any big cases?”
I wound up as supervisor and I worked nights from eleven thirty at night until seven
thirty in the morning because that worked out the best with my children and I didn’t have
to worry about a housekeeper because I was home all day. I slept from six until ten at
night and to this day I can get along on four hours sleep.
Interviewer: “It’s what you get use to I guess.”
Yes, I identified a lot of fingerprints on big cases, but nothing spectacular, but my boss
was a great guy. I was lucky—in baseball and in my jobs, I had great bosses. At the
bank I had a boss that loved sports and at the police department I had a great Lieutenant
who became a Captain and then became a commander of a district and he was a
fingerprint expert. I don’t know if you ever remember reading in the paper where a fella
killed a bunch of nurses—Wayne Gacy—no, Richard Speck—well, my Lieutenant went
out to the scene and he lifted a fingerprint form the outside window where Speck had
tried to get in—came downtown to our files and manually searched the files and he had
found Richard Speck’s fingerprint card. 43:48 At the same time someone called from
the Cook county Hospital where Richard Speck had gone for treatment because he got
hurt. I don’t know if it was an intern or a doctor that recognized him back from the all
wanted and called the police. At the same time my Lieutenant was going to his office to
notify them 44:17
Interviewer: “They matched them up and they had him. I do remember that case.”
He was the greatest—when I first got on the job, I was still married to my first husband
and I had marital problems and I had to get off of nights and work days, so he was a
Lieutenant at the time and when I asked him he said, “well, I can’t do that”. We worked
civil service and you couldn’t play favorites, so I said, “well, I’ll have to resign”, so he
explained to be and he said, “well, if you resign get your name reinstated on the civil
service list and when there’s an opening we give a call and you can turn it down twice.
The third time, your name comes off the list”, so I got called twice and the third time he
called me I had already separated from my first husband and I made arrangements for
someone to take care of the kids. They came over and slept nights and I said, “If I can
come back nights, I’ll come back”, and he said, “Well, I can guarantee you six months”.
Well, six months came and went and I stayed for another twenty-four years. 45: 40 I got
remarried, Commander Degee retired and I went to his retirement party with my new
husband and after all the speeches he came over to our table and he said to me, “are your
six months up yet?”
13
�Interviewer: “He remembered.”
Yea, I introduced him to my husband and he sat down and talked to us for about a half
hour and it was great.
Interviewer: “That’s great. It’s nice to be in those situations where you have that
good relationship.” 46:14
I can’t understand how people can gripe about their jobs.
Interviewer: “You had good ones and that’s a good thing. I want to ask you a few
things about after your playing days. Did people know you played in the league?”
When I coached the girls at church, I use to say, “when I played ball”, and it was no big
deal—you know how kids are. Two of my brothers were real proud of me. The
companies they worked for had magazines that came out monthly and they were always
putting in stories about their kid sister and the neighborhood—I had the newspapers from
Grand Rapids sent home and as soon as my mother got them she went to the butcher shop
and showed them to the guy at the butcher shop and she showed them to the guy over at
the Kroger store, so when I would come home in the fall and go shopping for her they
would say, “tell us about this game. Your mother showed us the paper”, but outside of
that, not too much. A few times when I would be going out on a date with somebody
from the bank one of the guys would say, “hey, watch out for her, she throws a mean
fastball “, and they would look like, “what’s he talking about?” 47:31 I didn’t want to
get into it , so I just let it go. It wasn’t until we got accepted at the Hall of Fame that
more people found out about it, neighborhood papers ran stories and then after the movie
came out, I had moved from Chicago down to Hot Spring Village Arkansas, so the movie
came out and all of a sudden it’s playing on television and people from my church would
call me up all hours whenever that movie was on. “Your movie is on”, they would say
and hang up. 48:18
Interviewer: “It’s nice to be recognized though and remembered.”
A couple of months ago, in July in fact, there’s a fella that lives in the village, he played
in the negro league, so one of the reporters for the village paper interviewed him and he
said to Bill, “how does it feel to be an ex major leaguer?” Bill talked to him and he said,
“you know you got a woman here that played in the girls league”, so this fella called me
up and he said, “Bill McCreary told me all about you and I would like to interview you”,
and I said, “Jeff, they’ve had my story in the paper three times in the past. I’ve been here
nineteen years and people are tired of reading it.” 49:04 He said, “I’ve been here seven
years and I never saw your story. I want to do it”, so he did a nice interview and gave me
a DVD and a VHS tape, the whole shot. My State Farm insurance agent cut the articles
out and put them in a folder and laminated them. On the front it says, WE SAW YOU
WERE IN THE NEWS—real nice. I go to the store and people say, “You’re the ball
player”. It works to the good. We have a community near us where three hundred
people got laid off. I don’t know if you’re familiar with the Weyerhaeuser Corporation,
the timber company.
14
�Interviewer: “I certainly am.” 49:47
They laid off three hundred people. They closed down their operation in Mount Pine, so
I wanted to do something to help and I was talking to Jane Moffet, one of our ball
players, and Jane said, “why don’t you ask the girls to send you gift cards to Wal Mart?”
So she spread the word and the girls helped out. I have one daughter that was working
selling radio advertising, she called me up and said, “Ma, I got a two hundred and fifty
dollar bonus check”, and I said, “good, send it to me, I need it for Mount Pine”. She sent
it to me—I raised three thousand dollars, gave out gift certificates and the people that
didn’t show to pick them up—we went to Wal Mart and bought food and a fella from the
food pantry came with his trailer and picked it all up, so people in the village read the
article that I was doing this and they helped by sending me gift cards in the mail. “Here’s
another gift card for you from Wal Mart”. 50:49 I’ve heard that people go to Wal Mart
for everything. They can get gas, they can get food, and they can get medicine, so we
gave out Wal Mart gift cards. It worked out real good.
Interviewer: “It didn’t hurt at all that you had some recognition to lend to it.”
This time I bought ten baseballs and I had as many girls as I could find sign them and I’ll
auction them off when I get back and raise money for the food pantry when I get home.
It works out and it helps to have a little publicity once in a while. 51:20
Interviewer: “It does if you use it properly. That’s the key to the whole thing too.
Do you enjoy getting recognized?”
I use to be kind of--, but now it’s old shoe. Maybe it’s because I’m old.
Interviewer: “do you get cards or letters from young girls once and a while?”
Yeah, I got a box full. I’ve been saving them since I moved to the village. I had a bunch
in Chicago, but you know when you move you get rid of a lot of stuff. 51:51 Since I’m
living down there, and that’s nineteen years now, I started saving them and on the
envelope I write that I replied and the date. I got a request from Germany for a picture,
baseball card and what not, so I had to go to the post office for something and I said to
fella, “how much does it cost to send something to Germany?” He said, “What are you
mailing?” I said, “maybe something like a birthday card and some pictures”, and he said,
“three dollars and something”, and I said “ok”. If they don’t send me a stamped
envelope, I don’t send it back because that could get kind of costly. 52:39 I got cards
from people saying, “will you please sign these two blank cards”. I don’t sign anything
blank. I sign a baseball card, one card, and send it back to them. A lot of them buy our
cards and send them to us. They send us three cards, they bought them, fine, and I’ll sign
them and send them back. They have a son or a daughter and that’s fine. 53:05
Interviewer: “Those that want the blank cards, they’re buying and selling
autographs.”
We were advised not to sign anything blank.
Interviewer: “I’ve heard that from people in sports and all over, don’t sign the
blank ones.”
15
�We get requests from different outfits. There’s some catholic school, I think it’s up in
Maine or Connecticut and they had a friend who knew a girl ball player and she donated
a couple of pictures and they auction them off to raise money, so he got a hold of our
addresses, I don’t know how and asked of we had any memorabilia we could donate for
auction. Every once and a while we get something like that and I check it out and call
them up. 53:57 If they don’t leave their number, I call up the chamber of commerce in
their city and check them out, but usually they’re on the up and up.
Interviewer: ‘When you look back, what do you see, the league you played in and
all of that, do you see it as part of the changing perspective that our country has
about the role of women in society? In other words, were you a pioneer?”
Yeah, looking back we were pioneers, because it was an awful long time after our league
folded before any women got any recognition in sports, so in our own way we were
pioneers, but like they will all tell you, we would have done it for nothing. We got paid
for doing something we loved. 55:00 That’s why we have a hard time assimilating with
sports figures today, but it’s just the way things are. They won’t let women play in the
major leagues, but I for one can understand it. I don’t think women should try to
compete against men. You might have a woman that’s five ft. seven and a hundred and
seventy pounds, muscular and all that and you have a guy that’s five ft. six and one
hundred and fifty pounds playing short stop, but there’s a different mentality, there’s a
different physical structure completely and I was always against teams touring and
playing against men’s teams. It’s not right. 55:53 If they could have a league, like
they’re starting all these baseball leagues now, women play against women—that’s
beautiful. That’s the way it should be and there’s a place for women in sports and it is
not competing with men. If you’re going to compete with men in baseball then let’s—
you know when a woman has a baby and the guys say, “there’s nothing to it” and we say,
“Well, why don’t you try carrying one?” “Be reasonable, he’s built different than you
honey”. Don’t try to compete with them on that and don’t even try to make a
comparison. I feel the same way about sports, there are sports for women, women
golfers, women tennis players, women swimmers, basketball, fine, but play against
women. 56:43 Show your competition the way it should be shown.
Interviewer: “It seems to make a lot of sense.
To me it does.
Interviewer: Any of you guys think of something else? I would like to know more
about the Grand Rapids championship season. They actually did win the
championship in 1953. Was that season any different than any other or did you just
get lucky?” 57:12
I think we just played harder. If I remember right, we had a lot of injuries in 1953. I
don’t know if Corky Olinger was back, I know that she had broken her ankle—we had a
lot of injuries in 1953, but everybody was clicking as a team, plus woody was a great
manager.
16
�Interviewer: “How did you do when he flew you out to Rockford?”
Good.
Interviewer: “You were ready to pitch the next day.”
Yeah. I got a lot of ribbing about it, teacher pet and all that good stuff.
Interviewer: “If you win the game, that’s what matters.”
Interviewer: “Thank you very much.”
17
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
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2017-10-02
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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Caden , Mary Lou (Interview transcript and video), 2009
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Caden, Mary Lou
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Mary Lou Caden (née Studnicka) was born in Oak Lawn, Illinois, a suburb of Chicago. She grew up in the Oak Lawn area and started playing softball with the neighborhood kids and transitioned to playing for local teams. She played as a short-stop in her amateur career and eventually was contacted by Mitch Skupien in 1950 to play for the Grand Rapids Chicks. She played for the Grand Rapids Chicks from 1951 to 1953 when she was traded to Fort Wayne and due to a pay cut decided to quit baseball and return to her job for National City Bank. During her time with them she played positions such as pitcher and second base.
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Olson, Gordon (Interviewer)
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
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Veterans History Project (U.S.)
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Indiana
Women
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2009-09-25
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
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Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Jean Cione
Interviewed by: Gordon Olson September 27, 2009 Milwaukee, WI at the annual alumni
reunion of the All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer March 4, 2010
Interviewer: Give me a little bit of background if you will. When and where were
you born, your parents names and a little of that sort of information.”
I was born in Rockford, Illinois in 1928 and my parents were Vi and John and I went to
school at a county school for eight grades in Rockford, Illinois. :53
Interviewer: Were all eight grades together at county?”
Yes, oh no, no.
Interviewer: “Then it wasn’t a small country school?”
It wasn’t that small. And I was, as everybody was in those days, an outdoor “tomboy”.
Interviewer: “Which means that you started playing ball as a little kid?”
I started playing ball as a little kid. I played catch with the guy next door who turned out
to be a neurourgeon and my mother thought that that thing that was hanging from my
right hand was part of my anatomy because that’s how often it was there. 1:39
Interviewer: “That was your glove?”
That was my glove.
Interviewer: “And it went everywhere with you?”
It did
Interviewer: “You’re a natural left hander and they didn’t try to change you? A lot
of people our age, young people if they were left handed, and they would try to make
them switch to right handed writing and that sort of thing.”
Well, I’m kind of ambidextrous. I batted right, I threw left, I write right, I iron both
ways, whatever’s handy really. 2:13
Interviewer: “If you’re going to throw, it’s better to throw left handed because
there’s more demand for left handed pitchers.”
There are fewer of us; I guess that’s probably why.
Interviewer: “what are your recollections, before there was a league, of playing
ball? Where did you play and how did you develop as a ball player?”
1
�Well, I played neighborhood ball with the boys. When I was in the eighth grade I played
first base on the boys softball team and since it was a county school we competed with
other county schools and I earned a letter at that county school. I of course went to junior
high school in the city and there was no opportunity for women back then and so I played
in an industrial team league and on industrial league teams. Now, Rockford, Illinois was
the largest machine tool center in the world and the town was full of factories of all kinds.
3:33 They made huge machines and sent them overseas and so forth. Well, each of
those industrial corporations had a men’s baseball team and a women’s softball team.
This was a large city. The second largest city in Illinois at that time and so I played then
in the industrial teams. 4:03
Interviewer: “So there were sports opportunities for women in Rockford?”
There were, definitely. Rockford had a wonderfully developed park system, the
University of Illinois at Champaign Urbana came up and set it up and Rockford was half
Swede and half Canadian with a few Polish and Irish thrown in there, but they put their
money in their city, so there were really opportunities for children. 4:34
Interviewer: “You said that you got a letter for playing on the eighth grade team at
the county school. How unusual was it for girls to be on the school team like that?”
Well, at the luncheon today, they talked about the first and I was the first.
Interviewer: “That makes it unusual. In high school were there any sports you
could play in high school?”
They called it GAA, girls athletic association and we played among ourselves and if we
did have opportunities to play with girls from other schools, with mitts. 5:24
Interviewer: “That’s right, there was a sense that girls shouldn’t be—not only that
girls weren’t so competitive, but they shouldn’t be so competitive.”
Absolutely, and in those days girls were short and supposed to be short as opposed to
now, they step out and they are tall. 5:50
Interviewer: “They’ve been feeding them real well lately. You were playing in the
industrial league when you learned about the opportunity to play women’s
baseball?”
Well, I was born and went to public school in Rockford, Illinois and the “Rockford
Peaches” came into Rockford, Illinois and established Rockford as their home team in
1943 and I was fifteen at the time. 6:19
Interviewer: “Still in high school?”
Yes, still in high school and my dad of course, who was my very best friend, took me to
the ball games and I would say, “Dad, I’m going to play some day”.
2
�Interviewer: “Had he supported you as a ball player? Did you learn any baseball
from him?”
No.
Interviewer: “He was just a fan?”
Yes, he was just a fan. I didn’t learn it from him, but yes, he supported me and my
mother supported me too because it was two against one, my dad and I.
Interviewer: “She might as well go along with it.”
Yes, she might as well go along with it.
Interviewer: “Are there other brothers and sisters in your family?”
I do have a sister, but she’s fourteen years younger. After they had me they had to wait a
long time before having another one. 7:14
Interviewer: “Even if she had been a ball player there wouldn’t have been an
opportunity like you had for her would there?”
No there wasn’t, and we were very, very fortunate. We were just lucky.
Interviewer: “So, the Rockford Peaches come to town and you see some games and
you decide, “I’m going to do that”. How did you go about accomplishing that?”
7:37
Well, they held a tryout a couple of years later and I was seventeen at that time and Max
Carey came into town and he held a tryout and I was invited to spring training. I could
throw, I could hit, I could run. The finer points of the game probably weren’t very
evident, but he saw something there that might be developed.
Interviewer: “At that point did you have a sense of yourself as a pitcher at all yet?”
No.
Interviewer: “That’s coming yet. When you first learned of it—Max Carey comes
to town—did you have an understanding of why they were doing it? You knew
there was a war going on, but did you connect the women of the baseball with the
war or anything like that?” 8:36
No.
Interviewer: “That’s going to come, along with other things. So the tryout is
complete and he likes what he sees, then what happens?”
I went to spring training, it was held in Chicago, we stayed at the Allerton Hotel and
worked out in one of the big Chicago parks and I made the cut. Probably I made the cut
and went with the Rockford team because I was a Rockford girl and there’s some draw in
terms of people coming to the ball game to see me. I was very, very fortunate to play
under the manager who I consider the best manager who ever managed in the league, Bill
Allington from Van Nuys, California and he loved the game you could tell and he was a
3
�good manager. 9:43 All of us bench sitters and rookies had the opportunity to work out
every day we were home. The regulars didn’t because we played every day on a ten
game schedule. From him I learned how to fly, the finer points of the strategy of the
game. He sat us next to him on the bench and made sure we understood the game, all the
cutoff plays, all the finer points of the game so, I was able to survive. 10:28
Interviewer: “You had time to do hitting every day?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “At what point does pitching become part of baseball?”
Well, the league was managed more as a league opposed to individual teams and they
realized that they had to keep competition close in order to make it interesting for the
public so, they had what they called an allocation system and each team could protect x
number of players and the rest of us were put into a pool and I went to Peoria and was
their regular first baseman for a year. They didn’t protect me; they threw me into the
pool “Pop Murphy” from Racine picked me up. 11:43 We had spring training in
Havana Cuba that year and he picked me up and we toured up through Florida along the
Atlantic coast with those particular teams all the way up and he worked with me because
he thought maybe I could pitch—he saw something.
Interviewer: “He saw a fastball I bet.”
I don’t know what he saw, but I appreciated him very much. Those were exhibition game
with two teams would travel up together.
Interviewer: “Do you remember what the other team was?”
No I don’t. I remember going into my first exhibition ball game and striking out Jo
Leonard, who became a very good friend of mine and who I played with much later on,
but I pitched, he threw me in the games, all the way up to Racine and the season started.
12:56 Rockford had some injuries as they came up through their particular area where
they toured and Bill—Racine had won the championship the year before and Bill
Allington asked the league if he could get some help until his pitching crew got back into
physical shape and could play again, so Murphy thought that was a good idea and they
could make mistakes on Bill’s team, so I went to Rockford and I didn’t make too many
mistakes and Murphy wanted me back and I guess there was quite a discussion over a
period of time and in order to keep both managers happy they gave me to Kenosha.
13:52 I was with Kenosha for the rest of my career.
Interviewer: “You stayed in the same general vicinity, but you didn’t get to go
home again.”
No.
Interviewer: “I’ve got a couple questions I want to ask you and it suddenly
occurred to me, I haven’t asked this of other. The make-up of the team that you
4
�play on—you said he needed pitching, how many, do you remember how many were
on the team? There were some bench sitters.”
Yes there were. They carried at least four or five pitchers and nine and five is fourteen
and I think the rosters were seventeen or eighteen players. 14:36
Interviewer: “That’s not many players, particularly if you’re playing every day and
somebody is going to be a little “gimpy” once in a while. That’s not a “deep bench”
as they say.”
That’s probably why Bill took the rookies and those that sat on the bench and worked
with them because we had to go in at times.
Interviewer: “You had to be ready or about as ready as he could get you. The other
thing I wanted to back up to—you said you went to Cuba and came back; do you
have recollection of that time in Cuba and spring training in Cuba?” 15:13
I certainly do.
Interviewer: “Share them with me please.”
There was music twenty-four hours a day in Cuba and it was just wonderful. Music is
something that’s very important to me and I loved it. We were taken to eat at one of the
hotels all the time and the food was terrible, so most of us ate at “Sloppy Joe’s”, the bar
between our hotel and the hotel where they fed us.
Interviewer: “We shouldn’t assume you were in Havana, rather than assuming, the
people listening later will know that the spring training took place in Havana. All
the teams were there?” 15:59
All the teams were there, yes they were. We trained at the University of Havana’s
facilities, huge facilities.
Interviewer: “The Cubans love their baseball.”
Yes they do and they came out in great numbers for the exhibition games and they were
around to watch us train also.
Interviewer: “Did they seem to appreciate the level of the baseball that you
played?”
Yes they did, we heard nothing negative and so you assumed that they accepted you.
Interviewer: “I have also been told that the Cuban men were particularly
impressed by the fact that these were young women out there playing. Is there any
truth to that?” 16:44
Yes they were. Of course the Cuban men are very sexy, very sexy, you would have to
just really be careful.
5
�Interviewer: “I’ve seen a couple of great pictures of a group watching practice. A
group of young men up in the stands watching practice and waiting, I think, for the
first moment that practice was over, so they could get better acquainted.”
They were and after practice we generally showered—we went back to the hotel and
showered and changed clothes and we hired a taxi and he would come and pick us up and
take us all over Havana and make sure if we got thirsty we would have a “cervesa” (for
the non Spanish speakers, “a beer”) and we saw a tremendous amount of the poor and the
rich in Cuba. 17:56
Interviewer: “This is out of context with the story of your baseball career, but it’s
an interesting topic. Your horizons were significantly broadened by the travel
opportunities that came with being a baseball player.”
Absolutely.
Interviewer: “Not only just in terms of seeing places, but seeing other people and
other culture and maybe parts of –the poor as well as those better off and just a
better understanding of humanity in a sense.”
That’s right and appreciated it.
Interviewer: “It carried over later in your life?”
It did, I think it did.
Interviewer: “We may get back to that later and think about that a little bit more,
so this is 1947 and you could throw hard, but the world is full of people who can
throw hard, but they can’t hit what they’re throwing at.” 19:02
I have a funny story to tell you about that. Inez Voyce, she was a left-handed first
baseman.
Interviewer: “For the Grand Rapids “Chicks” among others.”
And South Bend, the South Bend “Blue Sox” and somehow or other she trained, she was
trained with us at our particular area of the ball park and Bill Allington came over to us,
the two of us, and he said, “you two, I want you to go out there in left field and play catch
until you can throw the ball where you’re aiming, you just get out there and work on it”,
and I never ever forgot that. Inez and I share that story together. 20:00
Interviewer: “And it worked.”
It worked, yes.
Interviewer: “Before we move on from Bill Allington, if someone were to say to you,
“I want a short capsule description of him and his personality, behavior--why was
he so good?”
6
�I can only give you from my perspective. He was so good number one, because he really
cared for the game. He instituted many plays that often other teams didn’t use, for
instance, just hitting the ball on the ground and the runner on first base going from first to
third, you know, those kinds of things. That’s what made him good and he cared and I
just really liked him. 21:10
Interviewer: “Big man, small man?”
Very wiry and medium height.
Interviewer: “Loud, quiet, soft spoken?”
It depended on whom he was talking to and what he was saying. I can’t say he was loud
or gregarious, he wasn’t, he tended to business and I liked that because that’s the way I
was brought up. Probably brought up too much that way, really focused on what I was
doing and he was really focused on what he was doing and he expected you to function
that way and that’s why I think he was good. 21:59
Interviewer: “Now, do you have a recollection of the first league game you pitched
in? You were pitching in these exhibition games up north.”
That’s very interesting--you know I don’t, I do not, I don’t remember the first league
game I pitched in.
Interviewer: “Are there other games that stand out over time? Some play off
games?”
My no hit no run games stand out in my mind.
Interviewer: “Gee, I wonder why that is?”
A twelve inning duel with Ziggy, Alma Zeigler from Grand Rapids. I don’t know why
they stand out that way.
Interviewer: “Let’s talk about those no hitters. You had two no hitters in a very
short period of time.”
That must have been a good year. 22:50
Interviewer: “Yes, I guess, so there’s a superstition in baseball that you don’t talk
to the pitcher until they give up a hit. If they get deep into a game you leave them
alone and no one mentions the fact that there are no hits. Did the women follow that
same kind of superstition?”
I think so because I don’t remember discussing it or anybody saying anything about it.
Interviewer: “Did you have a notion what you were doing?” 23:15
Yes.
7
�Interviewer: “Any moments in that game that stand out where they came close to
getting a hit?”
No moments stand out, sorry.
Interviewer: “Ok, that’s ok, sometimes you’re so lost in the next batter you’re not
thinking about anything else. There was two of them up, roughly that and you have
to feel pretty good about yourself at that point, you’ve got this pitching thing figured
out.
I think it was. Well, I’ll tell you something, if you didn’t feel good about yourself, you
didn’t last in that league.
Interviewer: “Do you want to expand on that a little bit?” 23:57
Well, you had to have confidence, you had to think that every time you walked out on
that mound, you walked out on that mound for one purpose and it was to win that ball
game, and if you didn’t have that confidence—athletes cannot perform unless they have
that confidence and some people call it cockiness and whatever it is, if somebody asks
you, “are you good”, you say, “you betch ya”.
Interviewer: “I can strike you out. Describe yourself as a pitcher would you?
What did you throw? What were your strengths and if there was a weakness, what
was it?” 24:46
I was primarily a power pitcher. I developed a cross fire where I stepped to first base and
brought it in right under your ribs. I was not afraid to work the inside of the plate. I had
a changeup and later in years, I developed a two fingered knuckle curve and obviously
that’s a ball that’s thrown with a spin on it and when it loses enough momentum, it falls
off and I was left handed and that was good for pitching against some of the very, very
good left handed hitters. 25:41
Interviewer: “A cross fire’s a pretty effective pitch against some of them too.”
We had –I do remember this—In one of the games I pitched in Kenosha, an Umpire, his
name was Remo, his last name, was behind the plate and he caught every one of those
cross fires and called them strikes and sometimes that’s hard for an Umpire because it
catches the front of the plate and by the time it reaches the back of the plate it’s in the
sand and that probably was very important to my further development as a pitcher. 26:26
Interviewer: “It gave you confidence to keep throwing. It’s a pitch—you say it
starts out from the first base side and if it’s a left handed hitter their tendency is to
lean back or away from it and a right handed hitter, their tendency is to think it’s
coming inside at them and you’re right, if you throw it right it comes right across
the front left hand corner of the plate and it’s still a strike, but the catcher is
reaching beyond the strike zone to pick it up and they will miss it.” 26:47
8
�They will because it’s very easy to miss. I had some Umpires that did miss them and I
didn’t like it.
Interviewer: “Did you ever get in an argument with an Umpire?”
Oh sure.
Interviewer: “Ever get thrown out?”
No, not that big of an argument. 27:16
Interviewer: “What was the quality of the umpiring in your mind? Your standing
up—pitchers have a particular perspective on umpiring, that’s for sure, how would
you assess the umpiring in the games you played in the league as you saw it?”
I think it was very good. I think it was very high quality. They’re going to miss some
stuff, but we didn’t let them know that we thought that they were going to miss some
stuff, they were going to, but I think the quality of the umpiring was excellent. 27:54
Interviewer: “Which is probably not a bad idea—attitude for a pitcher to have
going out there. Think of the Umpire as your friend and if they sensed that at all,
they just might become your friend. As a hitter I always felt that way. Any teams
that you felt a special rivalry with at all?”
Well of course I always felt the rivalry of Rockford. I welcomed going into Rockford
and beating them and they were very, very good, very good. I played with Rockford my
last year in the league and many of them became very close friends, but that was the team
that I welcomed pitching and playing against. 28:53
Interviewer: “It makes sense, if you can’t play with them then the best thing you
can do is to go in and beat them.”
That’s right, that’s right.
Interviewer: “Talk to me, if you will, a little bit about travel. How you go t around,
the teams were fairly close together, but you still had to get from one town to
another on short notice sometimes.”
In 1945, when I played with Rockford, we traveled by train, the Illinois Central out of
Rockford into Chicago and then changed trains to other locations; New York Central up
into Michigan and that was wonderful. Travel by train was just super. Well, the league
figured out that if they had their own buses it would be cheaper and more efficient. If we
had a trip from Kenosha, Wisconsin to Grand Rapids, that’s a long trip and we would
leave after the ball game and stop somewhere and have dinner before we left Kenosha
and then you traveled all night. 30:12 It was much more efficient for the league to go by
bus travel. Big buses and they were comfortable.
Interviewer: “No sleeping berths though on a bus.”
No sleeping berths.
9
�Interviewer: “You had to figure out your own way to get comfortable.”
You just had to kick back and do what you could.
Interviewer: “Now, when you got into—as a visitor coming into a town, you’re in
that town for three or four games, something like that, did you stay in hotels, did
you stay in homes?” 30:52
We stayed in hotels and we stayed in the best hotel in that town, yes we did.
Interviewer: “At that point the league took care of you in that regard.”
They absolutely did. We stayed in the VanOrmin in Fort Wayne and the Pere Marquette
in Peoria, good hotels.
Interviewer: “They probably put you in the Pantlind in Grand Rapids or I would
have to think about where else in Grand Rapids you might have stayed at, there
were a couple big hotels.
I know it was right downtown. 31:26
Interviewer: “Probably the Pantlind. Did the teams you played on get to the
playoffs?”
Once, and it was against Rockford and it was two out of three I believe.
Interviewer: “And this was Racine against Rockford?”
Kenosha, Kenosha against Rockford and they beat us and we were done.
Interviewer: “Did you get to pitch in the playoffs?”
I played first base in that playoff, you know I could hit a little bit and I often played first
base or one of the outfield positions. I took my turn every third or fourth day. 32:20
Interviewer: “Yeah, with the short roster you had, a lot of them played as position
players as well. Ziggy for example, was both a pitcher and a—second baseman,
right and you and a lot of others the same way, if you could hit a little bit.”
You had to be able to hit.
Interviewer: “What was the quality of the hitting in the league? Was it more of a
pitcher’s league or a hitter’s league?”
I think it’s very, very similar to major league baseball now, I really do. It’s not like
softball, which is a pitcher’s game; it was probably pretty well balanced.
Interviewer: ”You saw some scoring.” 33:16
Right, we saw some scoring and our batting champions were hitting up into the mid three
hundreds, so it was probably a pretty balanced game.
10
�Interviewer: “You played through some rules and equipment changes. The base
length changed didn’t it at some point? The ball changed in size, did you like the
changes as they occurred?”
Yes, I did.
Interviewer: “Let’s talk a little more, you tell me what kinds of changes occurred.”
33:58
Of course the pitching distance changed. The change when we went away from strictly
softball pitching and it went to pitching where the hand had to be below the wrist, then it
had to be below the elbow and then it had to be below the shoulder and right over the top.
As that pitching changed and structure changed, the ball got smaller and smaller and of
course as pitchers, we liked that. The bases got longer, the game got more like baseball
and less like softball. 35:00 Much more in the way of double plays, relays from the
outfield to nail them at home and that kind of thing. As the ball got smaller, the game got
faster; I guess that’s what happened.
Interviewer: “The skill level adjusted?”
Yes, it did.
Interviewer: “And there was some training and teaching going on? Bill Allington
wasn’t the only one, or Allington I should say, wasn’t the only one teaching?”
There were many that didn’t.
Interviewer: “True” 35:29
There were many that didn’t, yes.
Interviewer: “ I think Woody English comes to mind, who a lot of the players liked,
as someone who paid attention and took his job seriously is maybe the fair way to
put it.”
Yes he did. The game, I think, was more interesting for the spectators as the bases
lengthened and as the ball got smaller.
Interviewer: “You played then from your first year, which was 1945, until 1954,
basically the end of the league. What are your perspectives on that period when it
went into decline and at some point you could see it coming. What happened? Tell
me about it.” 36:21
You could see it coming. Many of the teams board of directors did what they could to
cut expenses, as tight as they could, we traveled in cars, which was very poor, that was in
the last year, next to the last year.
Interviewer: “Packed tightly in cars or a group of cars?”
It was not a good thing. Not a good thing for the players and for the league in particular.
You could see the decline, your salaries didn’t go down, your meal money didn’t go
11
�down, but you could see it particularly in the travel. The fields were still kept up and
they were beautiful fields. 37:19
Interviewer: “The fields were the responsibility of the local communities, at least in
some cases the parks department had some role in maintaining the fields.”
Well, any team I played on, we had a—I’m thinking golf, a greens keeper.
Interviewer: “Groundskeeper?”
Yes, a groundskeeper who took care of the field and we knew him.
Interviewer: “He was with the team?”
Yes, and the teams were tailored, just like the major league fields now, the fields were
tailored to the team. For instance, Jean Fout, whom I consider to be the best overhand
pitcher in the league, she came from tight from over the top and they built the mound up
for her. 38:14
Interviewer: “So she was even taller out there. Of course, if you were an overhand
pitcher and pitching there, you at least had that same mound to pitch from.”
Oh yes you did, that’s true.
Interviewer: “Did some of the teams water down the area in front of home plate a
little bit?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Let the grass grow a little longer in the infield?”
Yes they did.
Interviewer: “That’s been going on for a long time hasn’t it?”
Yes it has and we took advantage of that. The grounds keeper would work with the
manager and the fields were tailored to the home teams strengths and weaknesses. 38:52
Interviewer: “I said earlier that one of the people I talked to about pitching
suggested that there were things done to the baseball. What she talked about was
an accusation of one team put the balls in the refrigerator before that game just to
make them a little deader. Did you ever hear of such a thing?”
No, (laughingly), never heard of it.
Interviewer: “Did you ever hear of any pitchers that would doctor the ball a little
bit?”
No. 39:28
Interviewer: “Certainly men were accused of such things.”
I know. A friend of mine, who is an athletic director at one of the universities in the
west, said that in one of their publications there was an article by an Umpire and his name
12
�was Petrangeli, and he said that he threw me out of a game for throwing a spit ball and I
said, “that’s ridiculous, he must not have had too much to say and he had to pull on
something”, but he was a Kenosha Umpire and he umpired a lot of my games, but I was
never thrown out. 40:16 Not even for arguing.
Interviewer: “It’s a fine line sometimes to how far you can go and what you can say
and what they’ll listen to and tolerate and what they won’t.”
That’s right. There was not a whole lot of foul language in the girls league.
Interviewer: “I hope not. There were some women who did get tossed, had pretty
fiery tempers.”
Oh yeah.
Interviewer: “I can’t think of her name all of a sudden, she played for Grand
Rapids and all I can think of her is the blonde from Arizona.”
California and she’s gone now—it will come to me. 41:06
Interviewer: “It won’t come to me right now either.”
She was from California and she’s gone now, she died of cancer. She was very good, but
she was fiery and so was Faye Dancer, from California.
Interviewer: “Not afraid of any Umpire.”
Interviewer: “The league is coming to an end and travel is pretty miserable, pay
didn’t go up—to what do you contribute that decline in revenue that they were
grappling with? That means fewer fans, what was happening to cause that?”
I think it was a combination of things. The war was over, the entertainment was
available and the entertainment dollar was spread around. You could now go into
Chicago and see the Sox or Cubs play and the pros that played were retiring and they
were bringing in top-notch softball players and they couldn’t adapt fast enough to the
game. And there were mental errors and people don’t pay to see that. It was really a
combination of things. 42:35
Interviewer: “If it’s sloppy they don’t like it. Did television play any role?”
It was barely started because I remember—I was going to undergraduate school in the off
season and I remember grappling with either working on what I should be working on or
watching the television, but I remember a little tiny screen. I don’t think television was a
factor. 43:10
Interviewer: “Ultimately television played a role in the decline of the minor leagues
in men’s professional baseball, but it was a little later. Unless you’ve got something
more you’d like to say about your career that I haven’t thought to ask you about,
I’d like to move over and talk about your post baseball career a little bit. What did
you do after baseball?” 43:37
13
�Well, during the off-season I went to undergraduate school at Eastern Michigan
University, Ypsilanti, Michigan, and seven miles from Ann Arbor, that big school.
Interviewer: “How did you pick Eastern Michigan, you’re over here in
Wisconsin?”
Well, Eastern Michigan was ranked the third best women’s physical education school in
the country and that was my field of study. I went to Eastern Michigan and got my
Bachelors degree and began teaching in the off-season in the public schools. I taught ten
years in the public schools. I taught in Trenton, Michigan for four years, that was my
first job. I taught for four years in Rockford, Illinois schools, West Rockford, Illinois.
Then I decided after eight years that I better get my Masters, so I went down to the
University of Illinois on a graduate assistantship and got my Masters degree and came
back and was a department head in a new school in Rockford and then I got a cal from
my Alma Mater, Eastern Michigan University, to please join them on their staff and there
is no greater thrill than being asked to join the staff of your undergraduate school. 45:33
Interviewer: “Those who taught you, and you stayed there.”
I stayed there twenty-nine years. I started out teaching theory of team sports, individual
sports, all of those and then I did some further work at the University of Michigan, which
was only seven miles from me and I did some further work in Scientific Foundations of
Physical Education and ended up teaching Scientific Foundations to sports medicine
people. Anatomy, Physiology, Biology Etc. and that’s where I finished my career. 46:18
I loved every bit of it. I loved the public schools, the team sports and the major courses
that I taught in the Scientific Foundations. I kept me from being bored.
Interviewer: “Did someone particularly encourage you to go college? Was that
your own decision?”
It was my own decision, my mother, like all good mothers, wanted me to stay home and
get married so she could have some grand kids and she said, “Well, if you want to go to
school, you can go to Rockford to college”. There was no physical education curriculum
offered there, but she didn’t understand that, so I had to go to school against their wishes.
47:09 When they found out that I was serious, then they accepted the fact that I was
away from home going to school.
Interviewer: “You had been away from home already.”
That was different.
Interviewer: “Did you continue in team sports as a player for a time or involved in
team sports after pro baseball?”
14
�I played one year of slow pitch and it was on a lark. Some of the professors at my
university and some of them at the University of Michigan decided we would get a team
together and we would do some slow pitch and it was fun.
Interviewer: “The strength of it is that it’s a team sport, the weakness is that it’s not
like baseball or even softball, it’s a different game. Let me now move to the final
portion of all this and I’d like you to reflect on it. It has to do in a sense, the
rediscovery of the All American Girls Baseball League, because I suspect you too
went through that period—your friends, you may have told them your baseball
experiences, but few people knew you were a professional baseball player, I’m
guessing. 48:44
Been there, done that and never talked about it. Who would have understood anyhow?
Interviewer: “A few, but not a whole lot, you’re right. All of a sudden though come
this movie and a national awareness that there was this unique group of women and
that they played baseball professionally for several years and they’re still around.
They discovered you at some point again and I bet you remember when that
occurred?” 49:19
Well yes, the Ann Arbor paper wanted to run an article on you and the professors at the
men’s club wanted you to come and talk to them about your baseball career etc., so the
opportunities were many, yes.
Interviewer: “Did the young women that were in your classes want to talk about it
too and get to know you a little more because of that?”
No, I can’t say they did. I can’t say that they did, I’m sure that they respected it. I can
remember them coming to that one year when we played slow pitch, coming to the games
and watching and it always tickled me that I was able to do something that I had taught
them how to do in the team sports class like catch the runner off second base and run at
him and freeze him and then make the throw and I liked that because it helped me to
realize that they understood that I do know what I’m talking about. 50:49
Interviewer: “Darn tootin’ you did. Reflect a little on the role that you perhaps
didn’t see yourself playing at all, but as a pioneer really in women in sports and in
some ways even in the larger movement toward feminism and more roles for women
in our society, you are part of that. Do you think about that, you must?”
I didn’t think about it at the time. Didn’t think about it at all. I supported and still
support the feminist movement. When Billie Jean King played Bobby Riggs, we all got
together and watched it together and the fact that P.K Wrigley insisted that the spectators
knew that those were women out there playing the game by the way they acted, by the
uniforms, how they dressed off the field, made me realize that that was a very important
part of women in sports. 52:30
15
�Interviewer: “That’s an interesting perspective I hadn’t thought of. I always
judged him more harshly for that because I thought he was, you know, because I
thought he was trying to feminize, or overly feminize and take advantage of the fact
and your argument would be quite the contrary. He wanted to make sure—he was
making sure that people knew that these were women. He was very insightful.
He was very, very perceptive—that he was and I think it was important. There was a
professional softball league in Chicago at that time and they dressed in I don’t know what
they dressed in—shorts or whatever. 53:20
Interviewer: “Some of them dressed in trousers almost or long pants.”
They didn’t draw the way we drew. We were entertainment for the industrial workers. It
was a family kind of audience—kids, women and men.
Interviewer: “Do you still hear from fans?”
No.
Interviewer: “You get requests for autographs though?”
Yes, many, many.
Interviewer: “Do you ever get tired of people asking for your autograph or wanting
to talk about what you did?”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Do you feel an obligation to keep doing it regardless?” 54:07
Sure, absolutely, I don’t have any more baseball cards, they’re all gone and I had
hundreds and I have to say to them, “I’m sorry I don’t have anymore”, and you can’t get
them either.
Interviewer: “Somebody has got to do a reprint.”
Well they did one some time ago.
Interviewer: “Those of you watching, what have I left out, anything? That was an
easy interview. All we had to do was sit and have a conversation. You saw the
movie when it came out and you have probably seen it more than once since.
What’s your reaction?” 55:03
It was fun and it was a fun movie. I can see why people would enjoy seeing it. The
baseball portion of it was pretty accurate and of course they had to do some Hollywood
tinkering a bit. We did not live all together in our home city. The manager did not come
into the women’s dressing room under any circumstances, but those two things made the
movie very, very entertaining for the average person that would go to a movie. 55:43 It
was fun.
Interviewer: “They did have classes for some of the women to—“
The first year, only the first year.
16
�Interviewer: “There had to be some resistance in the—not everyone—how did they
respond to the fact that they were going to charm school?”
I don’t know, but I can imagine—it was a big joke, that’s how they responded.
Interviewer: “That’s right, you weren’t there because you came two years later and
that would be my guess. It was a man’s idea, I think. to have these classes anyway
and that tells you something about it. 56:25
But that reinforces the idea that P.K Wrigley knew that the aura that the players had to
give off, needed to be a feminine aura or it wasn’t going to go.
Interviewer: “I do appreciate your perspective that it helped women in sports.
That he drew attention to the fact that these were women playing that well and
doing that well. That’s a good insight and I appreciate that.” 57:09
Sometimes I get, along with the request to sign cards etc., questions that they want
answered and one of the is, ”did the men and boys laugh at you in the stands and did they
make it hard for you?” For some reason or other, they thought that they might.
Interviewer: “Did they?”
No, not at all.
Interviewer: “Thank you, thank you very much.”
Thank you for asking me.
17
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-58_JCione
Title
A name given to the resource
Cione, Jean (Interview transcript and video), 2009
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Cione, Jean
Description
An account of the resource
Jean Cione was born in Rockford, Illinois in 1928. She grew up in the Rockford area and played softball with the neighborhood boys and then also played with the local industrial teams. When the Rockford Peaches made Rockford their headquarters, Cione tried out for the team and at age 15 joined the ranks of the Rockford Peaches in 1945 as a reserve rookie first baseman. In 1946, she was traded to the Peoria Red Wings and played first baseman for them but was then traded to the Kenosha Comets in 1947. She remained with the Kenosha Comets from 1947 to 1953 and played sometimes as a left-handed pitcher, first baseman, or outfield. Consequently, the Comets franchise disbanded in 1954 and she was traded back to the Rockford Peaches where she finished out when the All American Girls Baseball League was disbanded.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Olson, Gordon (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Women
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-09-26
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c06c8ce94e4eb6efae8934af8ca00afa.mp4
26147b7326ea404e7281dd82aaeae574
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cf6b584e67d72eee9593af480f193dbf.pdf
520195aee97472c483e9b6466582af34
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
DORIS COOK
Born: Muskegon, Michigan June 23, 1931
Resides: Muskegon
Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project,
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, April 18, 2013
Interviewer: Could we start with your name, and where and when were you born?
My name is Doris Cook and I was born in Muskegon, Michigan on June 23rd, 1931.
Interviewer: What were your early days like? You were born in Muskegon and
what was your family? Tell us about your family and where you were living.
Well, I’m a member of a twelve children family and we lived in the suburbs and we
played sports all our life. My dad was into baseball, so the rest of us just got into sports
naturally.
Interviewer: What did your father do for a living?
He was a pattern maker.
Interviewer: So, he was the bread winner, so to speak, and your mother was a home
maker? 1:03
Yes
Interviewer: Where were you in the chain of twelve children?
I was fourth from the oldest.
Interviewer: What was your early schooling like?
Well, we went to like country schools and the school went through eighth grade and then
we went on to junior high and high school.
1
�Interviewer: In your early days of schooling though, did you have to walk to the
school, and what did the school look like?
Well, it was kind of modern like, but we did walk most of the time. There was a bus, but
we lived about four blocks from the school, so they preferred we walked.
Interviewer: You had a sister that was a couple of years older than you?
Yes
Interviewer: Did you go to school together?
Yes
Interviewer: In the early days I know—I‟m an only brat myself, but how did you
get along with your brothers and your sisters?
Oh, just fine, we played together all the time. 2:01
Interviewer: Okay, so your older sister though, what was your relationship with
her?
Well, it was good and we played on teams together.
Interviewer: Well let‟s, before we get into that, where did you first get introduced
to baseball?
I guess I was such a young age, it was sand lot ball back then with all my brothers and all
the neighbors. We played mostly with boys. At that time girls sports weren’t really
popular, so we were playing with the boys most of the time.
Interviewer: Okay, this is—you say it‟s a sand lot, so did you set up your own bases,
or were they already there?
No, we had to make our own in a field out behind the house, we did our own.
2
�Interviewer: This may sound like a stupid question, but how did you even know
how to play baseball?
Well, I guess maybe, my dad taught us. 3:00 Then it comes naturally, we didn’t seem to
have a problem with it. I had two brothers older than myself and we all just—I guess we
learned from my dad probably.
Interviewer: Was there any adult supervision, like umpires or anything like that,
while you were playing?
No
Interviewer: So you guys were just playing together and divided up into teams and
just played?
Yeah
Interviewer: When you were in school learning English and math and all that, did
you have any idea what you wanted to do with yourself?
No, I didn’t have that in mind.
Interviewer: Okay, what would be the normal route for a girl of your age at that
time? For you to go—where would you go after you got out of school for example?
Well, back then there weren’t a lot of careers for women, so you didn’t talk about careers.
Maybe you thought you’d become a wife and a mother and you just didn’t get into where
your life was leading. 4:06
Interviewer: But, you brothers, of course, were thinking in terms of what they were
going to do, have jobs or things like that, but in your mind it was just a matter of
getting through school and then what are you going to do at the end of school,
maybe get married?
3
�Right, we didn’t think about that.
Interviewer: Where did the idea of playing baseball in a more organized way come
about in your life?
Well, I was probably about twelve years old and my sister, of course, was a couple years
older and we had city softball for women. There was nothing in the high schools, they
had local city [league], and most of those women were older, of course. School teachers,
physical education teachers, and I think I was twelve when I started. 5:00 Donna played
ahead of me like that before she turned to pro.
Interviewer: Well, let‟s not jump ahead too quickly here. How did Donna get
involved with—since she was ahead of you, how did she get involved in this league?
Well, because of playing locally and all your local advertisements and publicity and it
was a known fact that she was a good ball player, so then they started scouting that, you
know.
Interviewer: So, they actually had scouts going out to these lots and watching?
Well, I can’t say that, I think they got it from the newspaper and word of mouth in town
where you’re popular, you know.
Interviewer: So, you‟re two years behind and here she is going to play, how did that
make you feel? Did that motivate you or did you get jealous? What was your
reaction?
I think I thought, “Well, I’ll do the same thing”, but her time came along first and that
didn’t bother me. 6:04
I was still in high school; she started playing, and my dad and
my mother, the family, supported it, so I just kind of followed along with that.
4
�Interviewer: Did you talk about that at the family dinners and things like that, that
she was playing and that you wanted to play next? Did they have any idea that you
were going to follow in her footsteps?
I don’t know that we discussed it. I think it just came naturally. I was doing the same
thing she had done, playing with the city softball, local and it just was like I just followed
her.
Interviewer: This is going to sound like a stupid question, but why baseball? Girls
didn‟t play baseball that much and certainly not in the professional leagues, but
why were you interested in baseball?
Well, we really played a lot of sports, and I played a lot of basketball and that was also
city. When I say city, we came to Grand Rapids, Holland, Zeeland and played teams
from those cities, so we were really into all sports. 7:08 At that time I didn’t start
bowling yet. I was busy with baseball, basketball and volleyball, but you didn’t have that
stuff in high school, there wasn’t enough of that going on for girls, so you had to go and
look outside of school.
Interviewer: You say your parents were supportive. Did your dad talk to you and
give you hints on how to play, or at that time were you playing pretty well?
Oh, he gave us a lot of hints. In fact one thing he did, he’d take a new glove and take the
strings out of it and remove some of the padding, because they were too thick and stiff,
and he’d loosen that up for you and put it back together, so you could catch better with it.
Interviewer: You know, I‟ve talked to some of the women who had difficulty getting
equipment and things like that, because their parents didn‟t have the money. 8:00
5
�Your father did pretty well, I mean, he was able to buy you the equipment you
needed?
I think so, and between all the kids somebody had a ball and a bat. It might not be
something like a bat for yourself, it’s one that everybody uses. We had our own, but
other kids brought bats and balls and gloves and stuff too.
Interviewer: Okay, this is a period of time in America where things economically
were pretty bad. This is the depression era and how did you and your family
survive through that? How did you fare?
We did very well, and at that time there was probably eight of us, because some came
along later, but we never had to go for help, my dad worked a lot of hours, worked every
day, never took a vacation and we were well enough off. 9:00
Interviewer: First of all, Doris was always ahead right? She was always the kind of
person that got involved in something and then you kind of followed in her tracks.
When did you first, or your family first hear about this professional—women
playing baseball, what‟s that all about?
We were lucky--they came to Muskegon with a team, and in 1946 one of the teams came
into Muskegon, so we just fell into it. They started playing in Muskegon at Marsh Field
and my family started going to the ball games. Donna was still in high school, then
graduated and went right into baseball.
Interviewer: What was the process, maybe you don‟t know the detail, but I want to
know the details of how you got in, but how did Donna get in? You went to the ball
games, saw that there was this professional league and did you see it in the papers
too, was it on the radio, how else did you know about this league? 10:00
6
�Well, I guess we saw the sports page and the ball games, and our whole family went to
the games. Then Donna tried out, of course, you didn’t have to go anywhere else to try
out, you know, they watched her play right there in Muskegon, so it was easy.
Interviewer: So, she gets in and what about you?
Well, I’m still in school, of course, I’m a couple years behind her, and while I’m a senior
in high school they were going to have tryouts in Chicago. So, I got out of school and
went to Chicago for a week.
Interviewer: How did you get there?
On the bus
Interviewer: So, your dad is very supportive of this, because somebody had to have
some money to get on the bus.
Right, and he was all for it.
Interviewer: There were no worries, at this point, about you going off by yourself to
Chicago? Had you been to Chicago before?
No, I don’t know if I’d ever been to Grand Rapids, and you just didn’t travel back then
like that. 11:05 We had a car, but you just didn’t travel, and I don’t think they were
afraid for me. I think they thought it was well supervised.
Interviewer: How old were you at that point?
Seventeen
Interviewer: I know that was a long time ago, but what were your feelings as you
got on that bus to go to Chicago?
You know, I had mixed feelings about it. I didn’t know if I wanted to be away from
home or get on a bus and to all these strange towns, even just getting to Chicago. But I
7
�think that once I got there they kept you so busy with the training, and all the girls, you
just didn’t think about it after that.
Interviewer: you had to go through a tryout though didn‟t you?
Yes
Interviewer: Where was that?
In Chicago
Interviewer: You get on the bus, you don‟t know if you‟re going to make the team,
right?
No
Interviewer: But Donna already has? 12:02
Donna is already in the league.
Interviewer: I‟m just trying to think, younger sister getting on the bus, going to
tryout, sister‟s already in there, you had to have some feelings about worrying about
it, are you going to miss her now?
I think you do, but I think I had enough confidence that I knew I could play as well as the
next one, and I didn’t have a problem with that. So, we trained and after the week was
over I knew I’d made it, but I had to go back to school and graduate.
Interviewer: Before we jump into that, you say it was a whole week?
Yes
Interviewer: Walk us through, basically, the whole week. You arrive in Chicago.
Okay, is there somebody there to meet you?
Yes
Interviewer: So, tell us about that.
8
�The hotel arrangements are all made and all the girls are staying at the same place. then
you just start right out early in the morning training all day long.
Interviewer: You met these girls, where were they from? 13:02
They were from all over.
Interviewer: Well, that had to be new. You grew up in a small town and had not
even been to Chicago and suddenly there are all these girls.
Ah huh, and they were from all over. I knew nobody, but it’s easy, you’re busy playing
ball and it doesn’t seem like it was a problem.
Interviewer: In the movie, A League of Their Own, they really made it a point to
show that there were New York girls and they kind of had an attitude and there
were other girls that were more Midwest and they were—was it anything like that to
you in terms of different parts of the country?
Well, it was different-- the fact that we were in Chicago and the manager was from
Chicago and coached their other teams, and he had a lot of his own girls there, so they
were like they had their foot in the door. They knew him and they had played together,
some of them, so it wasn’t a problem for them. 14:04
Interviewer: So, your first day there, you arrive in Chicago. I take it you didn‟t
train that day; you probably had a day off before you started?
Probably, depending on what time I got there.
Interviewer: So, first day of training what am I seeing? There‟s a—you see a
baseball diamond, right? What am I seeing when you walk onto the field?
Lots of girls out there, running, throwing, batting. A lot of it was running, throwing and
catching; a lot of practice and training in catching.
9
�Interviewer: And there were a lot of individual—I take it there were men standing
around watching every step to see how you threw, how you hit the ball and that sort
of thing.
Right
Interviewer: There‟s a scene in the movie where Geena Davis walks out and she
sees all those girls out there. That‟s pretty much the way it looked right? Is that
right?
Yes, ah huh, that’s pretty true.
Interviewer: What were you thinking during that week? You said you had
confidence going in, but you saw all these other girls, and you probably saw some of
them were pretty good and maybe others you were thinking, “Well, you‟re not as
good as you think you are”. What was going through your mind that week? 15:14
Well, I don’t think I ever thought I wasn’t going to make it. I just think I had enough
confidence, and thought I knew how to play ball well enough that I didn’t know there
was any way they wouldn’t pick me. I guess it must have been confidence.
Interviewer: At the end of the week, how did they let you know, or let the other
girls know, that you made a team? How did you find out?
Well, I don’t recall that, I just don’t remember. I do know that I had to leave to come
back to Muskegon, so they told me before I left.
Interviewer: Did you know what team you were going to be playing for?
Yes
Interviewer: What team was that?
The “Springfield Sallies” 16:00
10
�Interviewer: Now, Springfield is quite a distance away from Muskegon, in fact it‟s
not even in Michigan. What was your reaction to that?
Well, I wasn’t familiar with the Chicago team either, so as far as the names of the teams,
or the states, I guess it didn’t mean a whole lot to me, I just knew I was on that team.
Interviewer: Now, you go back home by bus and what was the reaction of your
family when you told them you made the team?
They were happy, and it’s like they knew I would. I don’t know that anyone thought I
wouldn’t make it.
Interviewer: That‟s wonderful—do you think part of it is because your sister came
ahead of you and she was making it and you had shown that you—your father was
confident that you were a good ball player?
Yes, and we had a lot of write-ups in the paper, publicity, where they made it known we
were good ball players. 17:00
Interviewer: I know that the media does things like that. Were there any items
regarding the fact there are two sisters who had made it into the ball team?
Well, with the league I don’t know that it did. Locally, with the city it did, because they
were aware of it, so that made a lot difference in Muskegon.
Interviewer: You graduate, now what happens?
Like the next day, I had to get on a bus and go down to Evanston, Illinois. The teams left
Chicago and started on the road and I met them down in Evanston.
Interviewer: Let me get an idea—now you lived this and I have read about this, but
I want to get to the details of how you were actually told where you‟re going, or did
11
�you just not know where you were going? You arrive now in Evanston and you‟re
going to play for a season, right?
Yes 18:03
Interviewer: Did they sit down with you and the whole team and say, “Okay,
Tuesday you‟re going to be here and Wednesday you‟re going to be there playing
this”. Did you have any idea where you were going and who you were playing?
Not really, you had a business manager, a coach, and two chaperones for each team. The
business manager went out ahead and scheduled the games. We’d play a game, get on
the bus, and go to the next town. We might know where we’re going, but it didn’t mean
anything to us, we didn’t know these towns, we just went wherever they said, “We’re
leaving now and going to the next town”.
Interviewer: Now, this is 19---you said 1945 was when you first—
No, mine was 1949
Interviewer: 1949 was when you got in the professional league?
Yes
Interviewer: Okay, the war is already over with, the league has actually been going
on through the war, so it‟s already established, it‟s not like it‟s a brand new thing,
and it‟s been around a few years. 19:06
Yes
Interviewer: Now, you joined a team that had experienced girls already playing and
then some rookies like you. Tell me about being a rookie.
Well, there were enough rookies that you know, but they made you know you were a
rookie. But we didn’t have a lot of the girls that had been in the league too long. It might
12
�have been half and half. There were girls they sent on down to the tour team then from
the teams they were playing with. See, Springfield was a team that was in the league and
then they dropped the franchise in that city, that’s how it became Springfield, because
there was a team there at one time and they had the uniforms and the whole bit.[The
Sallies and another team were barnstorming teams made up mostly of new and younger
players that traveled together and played each other as a sort of minor league for the
AAGPBL]
Interviewer: So, you‟re joined up with this team, you‟re one of the rookies, and tell
us about your first game. 20:06
Oh boy, I don’t know if I can remember that. I played left field, I was the left fielder, and
nothing stands out as far as-Interviewer: Were you first string?
Yes
Interviewer: Wow, so even though you‟re a rookie, they had you starting?
Oh yeah
Interviewer: Wow, so what‟s the first game you remember?
Boy, I can’t tell you that, nothing stands out.
Interviewer: When you‟re traveling like that it must be almost like a blur. You‟re
playing a game, and you‟re playing another game. Let‟s talk about how that works,
alright? You get on a bus, and it‟s a bus with all the girls and you‟ve got your
chaperone on there. When did you first meet the chaperone? When you first
started out, when you first came in there?
Probably when the tour started
13
�Interviewer: What was her responsibility?
She had to make sure we were all in our rooms at night and everybody was safe. 21:06
didn’t get in any trouble, and if there were injuries she also served like a nurse, giving
rubdowns for “Charlie horses”, and she really had a big responsibility. See, both teams
traveled together on the same bus.
Interviewer: Two opposing teams?
Yes, there were like thirty-five of us. There was the manager and two chaperones, and
then girls from both teams, and the business manager.
Interviewer: In the early days, as you well know, there was a chaperone and also,
the chaperone was making sure you looked right and you didn‟t do this and that.
But, you didn‟t have to go through any kind of charm school did you?
No, they did earlier, but at that point they did not have a charm school.
Interviewer: But, did they still—in particular the chaperone, did she make sure
that when you were out in public you had to sit a certain way? 22:06
We had to be sure we were in skirts at all times. Never shorts, jeans, or slacks, those
were not allowed, even riding on the bus. When you were on the bus you could put
shorts on, but if you got off the bus you had to put your skirt back on.
Interviewer: What about things like make-up and things like that?
Well, they didn’t talk about make-up a lot. They worried about the hair, having the hair a
certain length, and making sure everybody was clean and neat.
Interviewer: And that was the chaperones‟ responsibility, so if you got out of bed
one early morning and came out and your hair was disheveled, she could actually
walkup to you and say, “Comb your hair”, or something like that?
14
�That’s right, yes
Interviewer: Now, the manager, of course, was in charge of what goes on, on the
field. Your first manager, how was your relationship with your first manager?
23:01
It was very good, a very nice man, and then he coached that team the first year. I went on
tour two years, but then later he went into the league and I played for him in Kalamazoo.
Interviewer: Managers, of course, are different because they have different
personalities, they have skills and what not. There are some managers, for example
in the movie; Tom Hanks was kind of angry and yelling at the people. What was
your manager like in terms of how he reacted to you and to the team?
He was very mild mannered, and a very nice guy. He liked to laugh and have fun. He
kept everything under control and I won’t say he wasn’t stern, but he was not mean or-he wasn’t good at yelling at the girls. He could make them understand without getting
irate.
Interviewer: What was his background? 24:01
I think all he did was coach in Chicago. He coached girl’s teams in Chicago.
Interviewer: Some of those guys were pro baseball players.
Right, and he didn’t happen to be one of those. Most of those guys were former major
league ball players.
Interviewer: So, I want to get an idea of the traveling time. You have to go from
city to city to play and you have both teams in the bus. What was it like to be on the
bus?
15
�Well, we had a lot of fun, and when the season goes along, sometimes you get kind of
irritated. There’s a lot of people around all the time, but for me it was easier because I
came from a big family. It’s like I just fell into it, where some girls were the only child in
their family and it was harder for them, but we got along good, even with our opposing
team, we were all friends. 25:01
Interviewer: In the early days, did you have any idea of the impact that you were
making on baseball, and on young girls who—as you know, later on baseball
became part of high schools and girls had a lot more opportunities than they had
before and when you were a kid. Did you have any idea, in the early days, that
something like that would happen?
Never, never in a million years
Interviewer: You‟re playing baseball and you‟re enjoying baseball.
We’re doing something we love.
Interviewer: Now, you were paid pretty well too, by the standards of the time.
Yes
Interviewer: Do you remember what you were getting in the early days?
When I was on tour, we made twenty-five dollars a week, but they paid all our expenses,
and we got three dollars a day for meals, which back then, you could eat on that, those
years back. So, actually I saved a lot of money, because we were always on the road, we
weren’t spending a lot of money, so most of my money I just sent back home. 26:07
Interviewer: And your dad just put it in the bank, or whatever?
Yes
16
�Interviewer: So, you had a little nest egg that you were building as you were moving
along?
Right
Interviewer: And your father, you said, was doing well enough that he didn‟t have
to tap into your money.
Oh, no
Interviewer: Because as you know, some of the girls were very poor and had to
actually help support their families. So, in your case, you were actually building
your own little nest egg, that‟s pretty good.
He was all for that, that’s what he preached, “Get an account and save your money”.
Interviewer: Now, in the early days you were playing on the Springfield team,
where was your sister?
She was in Muskegon to start with, and I think she went to Grand Rapids from there. To
the Grand Rapids Chicks, and she played on several teams
Interviewer: Now, did you know what she was up to and did she know what you
were up to, in other words, was there a way of finding out if she hit a homerun in a
game or not, or were you completely isolated because you were on the bus and doing
your own? 27:06
No, we had no idea what was going on in the league and they had no idea what we were
doing either.
Interviewer: How did you get your news of what‟s going on in the world? Did
you—were you so insulated in that bus, and then playing a game, and then back on
17
�the bus and then into the hotel, did you have any idea of what was going on around
you?
Yeah, we’d get the paper when we would stop at the hotels, you know, and check in.
We’d usually travel all night after the ball game and check into a hotel, but we usually
got the newspaper to know what was going on. Of course it didn’t have anything to do
with the league; we didn’t know what they were doing.
Interviewer: Right, because it wasn‟t like the New York Yankees or something like
that.
Right
Interviewer: The local papers, though, would carry stories about, not the league
necessarily, but about the individual teams in the town. Is that right? 28:00
Yes, and our business manager went out ahead and got the publicity out, and that’s how
the crowds came to the ball games, they knew we were coming to town.
Interviewer: In the early days, and we‟ll get into more details about your particular
games that you played and your career, but in the early days, what were the crowds
like?
Well, we’d hit a lot of small towns, but we would get seven and eight thousand people,
which was really great, because we’d be in some towns where it was almost like you
were playing out in a field, in a pasture, but those are the towns that drew the fans from
all over.
Interviewer: Ball parks were different town to town obviously, but in terms of—a
baseball diamond is a baseball diamond and you‟ve got bleachers for people to sit
18
�on, but you‟re saying that in some of the smaller towns it was out in the middle of
nowhere, so to speak?
Yes
Interviewer: Okay, were some ball parks better than others to play on, just in terms
of dirt and the way it was set up? 29:05
Yes, and we did play in some big parks, in big cities you know, a lot of big cities.
Interviewer: Walk me through the process—you get up in the morning, you‟re in a
hotel, you all get together and you‟re showering and you‟re getting your teeth clean
and all that kind of stuff, and you‟re all kind of mingling around, and you get on the
bus, right? Then the bus takes you to the ball park, and u go out and do your warm
ups and your practice and what not. The crowd shows up, you play the game, get
back on the bus, and then back to the hotel?
No, normally we had to shower right at the ball park and get on the bus and travel.
Sometimes we played a couple of nights in one town, but mostly it was just one night.
After the game, we’d shower, get back on the bus, and travel all night again. 30:00
Interviewer: When did you sleep?
Well, mostly on the bus.
Interviewer: I‟ve been on buses, you can‟t sleep on buses.
I know, I didn’t do good sleeping, but I’ve never needed much rest either, so I, really,
didn’t worry about that. But when we got into a town early in the morning, most girls
went to bed and got their rest before we had to get ready again.
Interviewer: What time were the games, usually?
Probably seven o’clock
19
�Interviewer: You had the whole day, basically.
Yes
Interviewer: What did you do?
We did a lot of things we shouldn’t do, like go swimming. It was hot, and something we
liked. A lot of us would go to the swimming pool, a lot of girls went to the movies where
it was air conditioned, to keep cool, but basically, that’s about what I remember.
Interviewer: How come you said it was things you were not supposed to do?
What‟s wrong with swimming and going to a movie?
Well, you take all your energy
Interviewer: Ah, okay 31:04
They didn’t want you to be all tired by the time it came time for a ball game.
Interviewer: Well, if that‟s the case, how did you get by the chaperone to go
swimming?
We had our skirts on, and she didn’t know that we were doing that.
Interviewer: So, there was a little bit of talking amongst you, “Today we‟re going to
go to the swimming pool, and how are we going to get out?” You were pretty much
free to do what you wanted in terms of, “you got your skirt on, so you‟re allowed to
go out into the town”, right? Go shopping or whatever? So, they didn‟t have
someone with you all the time?
No, so several of us would be together, and we’d have to get a cab to go to a pool, and we
were just busied for the day, and we really stayed out of trouble.
Interviewer: Were there any of you that got in trouble?
Not really
20
�Interviewer: Okay
I think maybe one or two girls were sent home. 32:02
Interviewer: Why were they sent home?
Maybe even smoking, and we were young enough there was very little drinking. There
might have been one girl that had been drinking and they sent her home, but normally, we
were too young for any of that. But, if they didn’t do what they were told, that’s why
they were sent home. They didn’t follow the rules.
Interviewer: The rules were made very clear to you I take it in the very beginning?
Yes
Interviewer: No smoking, no drinking, always wear the dress, behavior had to be
within certain guidelines and what not?
Yes
Interviewer: Where do you recall is the first real game that you played that you can
remember as this is the game that you played and did something that was out of the
ordinary? Was there a game you can remember?
No not—what happened, I was the left fielder and I started getting Charlie horses, so then
I wasn’t able to run. 33:10
So, when I was on the injured list then he started changing
me over to pitching, so then I started becoming a pitcher.
Interviewer: Had you pitched before when you were in softball or early on?
No, never and I still, today, couldn’t pitch softball, I don’t think, underhand.
Interviewer: By 1949 I‟m trying to remember now, what size was the ball? Had
already gone from a larger size to a smaller size?
21
�Yeah, it was just under a softball, and then as the years went along they reduced it.
Interviewer: Now, were you pitching side arm or overhand?
Overhand, and there were sidearm pitchers though/
Interviewer: So, basically, the coach got you to be a pitcher because your leg was
bothering you, you couldn‟t run out in the outfield to catch, you would hurt your
leg. 34:04
Whereas a pitcher, basically, stands up there and throws the ball and
doesn‟t run around a whole lot.
Yeah
Interviewer: What happened to the pitcher that was before you? Did you just
become like a substitute pitcher?
Well, we had several pitchers; we had three or four pitchers, so nobody had to pitch every
night.
Interviewer: From my recollection of baseball, you had first string and second
string. Did that apply to your group, or you just had pitchers that pitched different
games?
Yeah, just different pitchers
Interviewer: So, it wasn‟t as if you had one pitcher that played most of the games
and when that person got tired you replaced them?
No, it’s like the majors today where they put in a pitcher.
Interviewer: Okay, your first game as a pitcher, if I remember correctly, was it
Yankee Stadium? Is that accurate? 35:00
Well, we played there, but that was not our first game.
Interviewer: But, your first game as a pitcher?
22
�I’ll tell you, nothing rings a bell as far as anything outstanding.
Interviewer: Okay, because I have a note here that when you played at Yankee
Stadium there were some Yankees there and you exchanged a signed ball with
Tommy Henrich, is that right?
Tommy Henrich, yes
Interviewer: Tell us about that and what happened there?
Well, we were there to play some exhibition before their game, so we were out in the
field with them while they were having warm-ups, and so we got to talk to the fellows
and I changed balls with Tommy Henrich. They would take our ball and bat it, and we
were all just inner mingling.
Interviewer: What‟s the difference between an exhibition game and just a regular
game that you usually played? 36:00
Well, being on the tour it was, really, mostly all exhibitions, but going into the Yankee
Stadium was strictly an exhibition of a couple of innings.
Interviewer: Oh, I see, you just played a couple of innings.
Yeah, just before their game. They were playing the Washington Senators, and we were
just out on the field ahead of that in a couple of innings.
Interviewer: Okay, I got it. Now, when you‟re in a city like that or a town like that,
doing exhibition, did you also have to play a regular game?
Well, we didn’t that night.
Interviewer: So, you had a chance to go out in spectator seats and watch the game?
Yes, and we did that at Washington’s Griffith Stadium also. In Washington, we went
there and did that too.
23
�Interviewer: You must have seen some amazing ball players.
We did
Interviewer: Who were some of the ones that were playing around that time? Do
you recall any names?
Well, I think Mickey Mantle and Whitey Ford, some of the big guys.
Interviewer: Wow, these are legends. 37:05 Now, this is an unfair question and
I‟m giving you this in advance, okay? You‟re a good ball player, you know you‟re a
good ball player, and you‟re watching Mickey Mantle, or Whitey Ford, was there
ever any comparisons in your own mind about, “I can hit better than that”, or
anything like that going on?
I never thought that.
Interviewer: Okay
I never compared myself to the men. A lot of women think they could have played with
the men, and maybe they could have, but as a rule, generally women are just like a step
behind men, I think.
Interviewer: Well, in terms of that league, you had—your actual diamond was a
little bit different, right?
A little smaller
Interviewer: Smaller, and of course, the ball was bigger as well.
Yes
Interviewer: Okay, the trips that you took on the buses and the times that you spent
in the hotel rooms, having dinner, lunch, or whatever, what was the mood of the
24
�team? 38:06 Did you have some friends that you made or was it kind of like you
were all ball players? Did you make some good friends out of that group?
Yes, lots of friends, and they’re still friends today. We still see each other at reunions or
talk on the phone or correspond.
Interviewer: What about the fact that they came from all over? The part, I guess
that I‟m trying to get to is — I‟ve been fortunate enough that I‟ve been in an
international environment. I met people from all over the world and I met people
from different parts of the country, but you‟re coming from a small town, going into
some of these bigger cities that you‟ve never been to before and you‟re meeting
other girls that play as good as you, and are on your team, and opposing teams, but
one‟s from South Carolina, maybe, and another one from New York. Was there
any kind of curiosity, on your part, of how they lived their lives? Did they ask you
questions about what it was like when you were growing up? Was there any of that
kind of talk? 39:06
Yes, because quite a few of the girls were from Chicago and they live a different lifestyle,
that’s all there is to it. When they understand how we lived they just said, “I couldn’t live
like that”, and I’m saying, “I can’t live like you live either”. Some girls were from like
Arkansas where they came right from the hills, and they lived a different lifestyle, but we
all intermixed, you know.
Interviewer: But there was a noticeable difference though, you could really tell
there was—the way they talked for example, and I imagine they thought you talked
funny, and you probably thought they talked funny?
25
�Yes, that’s right, and there were places where we went and people would say, “You’re
from the Midwest states; we can tell by the way you talk”. We don’t think we have any
kind of an accent, and when you get out east too, you know, it’s another ball game out
east, the way those people live. 40:05 We were in around New York, New Jersey,
Newark, and all those cities around in there. We played those when we’d wrap up the
season, we’d be up in that way and you can tell immediately the difference in the attitude
of the people just getting on an elevator, being in a hotel and being with different classes
of people from different areas of the whole country.
Interviewer: But you had a pretty solid family background. You had a solid
ground, so you knew pretty much who you were, so even though you were dealing
with people who had different ways of doing things, you still pretty much stuck to
your own way of doing things.
Yes, I think I always had a mind of my own. Nobody could convince me of, like doing
the wrong thing. I knew what was right or wrong and I just wasn’t made that way. 41:02
Interviewer: Now, 1950 you leave the Springfield Sallies, and you‟re now moving on
to Kalamazoo, is that right?
Yes
Interviewer: Why did that happen and how? Tell us about how that occurred.
They didn’t have the tour after that. The two teams did not tour again and my manager
from the tour was doing the Kalamazoo team and they asked me to play there.
Interviewer: So, you‟re going from being a touring team, now to having a home
team?
Yes
26
�Interviewer: Okay, so what does that do in terms of where you‟re living, because
you‟ve been living on the road, basically, all through the season? By the way, what
happens after the season is over, did you just go back home?
Yes
Interviewer: And what did you do in the off season? The first year, we‟re talking
about 1949-1950.
We ran a soda bar. My dad had a soda bar, and us girls ran it, and it was just strictly in
the family. 42:05
Interviewer: So, he went from his job—he was able to invest in a business and sold
malts and root beer floats and things like that?
Yes, sandwiches and we had a really good business, but the problem was my sister and I
going away, and during the summer months when it’s the most busy, so after a couple
years we stopped doing that, because he couldn’t handle it with us gone. My other sisters
came and helped us, but they were all still in school.
Interviewer: Now, when you got back home, both you and your sister, did you talk
about—brag to each other or try to one up each other, what was that like?
Oh, I don’t think we did, I don’t remember doing that. You talk about things, but we
weren’t trying to outdo each other. 43:01
Interviewer: Did you talk about particular plays that you did that you thought she
would be interested in, like you hit a home run, or something like that?
No
Interviewer: Okay, there‟s no real competition between the two of you?
No, not really
27
�Interviewer: Okay, because sometimes those siblings, they got that competition
going on.
I didn’t feel that way, but I’m not sure how she felt. I can’t speak for her, you know.
Interviewer: So, the touring team ends, and now because the manager already
knew your talents, he decided he wanted you to become part of the Kalamazoo
Lassies now?
Yes
Interviewer: What was that transition like? You went from being on the bus all the
time, hotels, play, busses, what was the difference? Did you have to move to
Kalamazoo?
Yes, and I lived with a family. I just had a room with a couple other girls, and girls that
were on the tour that I knew. In fact, neither one of them were on the team I was on, on
tour, but we were friends and we lived with this family in Kalamazoo. 44:06 We just
rented a room.
Interviewer: So, what was your daily routine? I know what it was like when you
were on the touring bus, but what is it like now that you‟re in Kalamazoo?
Well, a lot of times we had to go and practice, but otherwise we found things to do. Like
I said, go swimming, or other things, going to movies.
Interviewer: Do you remember the first day playing at the Kalamazoo, playing for
the Kalamazoo Lassies?
No, not really
Interviewer: Okay, what was the difference though, in terms of playing, was it just,
basically, the same kind of thing, you‟re just playing the game?
28
�I think it was the same, except now I’m a real rookie with lots of veterans, and that’s the
point where they made us know we were rookies and they were veterans, but there were
enough of us that we stuck together, so that didn’t bother us. 45:04 I can’t say they
were mean to us, they were just like, “We’re a little better than you are”, but that doesn’t
last either.
Interviewer: Oh, okay, because you start to prove yourself and once you start
hitting that ball or catching that ball, they—
And they get to know you, you know.
Interviewer: Are there any notable games you can remember while you‟re in
Kalamazoo?
No
Interviewer: How was your hitting?
Not good
Interviewer: Neither was mine, I was a pitcher too.
I have to admit, I was not a batter.
Interviewer: How was your pitching?
I was fairly good.
Interviewer: Any specialalities?
No
Interviewer: Okay, I actually learned how to throw a knuckle ball, and that was
pretty impressive in little league, somebody throwing a knuckle ball.
Yeah, because back then you didn’t talk about all the pitches they talk about today.
46:00
29
�Interviewer: Sure, sure, was it during this period of time that the transition went
from the larger ball to a smaller ball?
Yes, as the years went along it reduced two or three times.
Interviewer: Right, how did you adapt to that? Was there any problem in adapting
to it? I mean, it‟s a different weight though isn‟t it?
Yeah, and it was a good change. It would have been worse if it was the other way
around, to a bigger ball.
Interviewer: So, you played with the Kalamazoo lassies from 1951 to 1953. During
this period of time you were making good money and money was still going back
home to be saved up in the bank. What was happening during the off seasons? You
said that after a while you were no longer working in the soda fountain. 47:00
No, when I started playing in Kalamazoo I decided to stay there, because several of us
stayed there then, lots of the girls stayed.
Interviewer: You‟re now like nineteen, almost twenty years old by this time right?
Yes
Interviewer: So, you‟re actually going from being a girl to, now you‟re more of an
independent woman?
Yes
Interviewer: You‟re making your own money, you‟re not beholding to anybody per
say, okay, so you decided to stay in Kalamazoo. Just renting the room?
Yes, living with, like, the same girls most of the time, and then we all played basketball
together, we had the Lassie basketball team.
Interviewer: This was a city team?
30
�Yes, and I started working at a bank then. Well, I started working at First National Bank
in Kalamazoo. And, of course, I left there to play ball again in 1952. 48:02 They said,
“Now, when you leave, we’re not going to hire you back, you won’t have your job”, and
I said, “that’s okay, I’m going anyway”. So, the next year, after I played ball and was
looking for a job, I was hired at Comerica Bank right across the street, and then they
hired me back each time.
Interviewer: This leads me to another question then. You‟re playing baseball
professionally, making good money; you‟re working at a bank now okay? In your
own mind now, at that time, what were you thinking in terms of your career? Were
you thinking you were going to be a professional baseball player for the rest of your
life, or at least for the rest of your physical ability to play, or were you already
thinking, “Wait a minute, this is not going to last very long, I‟m going to be a
banker or whatever”. Was any of that going through your head?
Well, not in the early days. 49:00
In 1953 then, when I was loaned to South Bend, and
came back to Kalamazoo, because I was still living there, that’s when I decided, “I’m just
going back to the bank, I got a job at the bank, I’ll just give up baseball”.
Interviewer: Jumping back a little bit, did you ever think of baseball as being a
career?
Not for my whole life, no.
Interviewer: Why, why would you not think that you could continue playing, at
least until you were physically unable to?
31
�I think that’s what you think about, “I won’t always be able to do this”. Of course, we
had no idea the league was going to fold either, that was a surprise because there were
girls that intended to keep playing.
Interviewer: That‟s why I‟m asking you this, because I‟ve interviewed girls that
thought that they were going to continue to play baseball, but you already figured
out that wasn‟t going to be your path. 50:04
Right, when they loaned me to South Bend I thought, “Oh, I’m not going to go through
this and have them start shifting me around”. I thought, “I got a job, I’m just going to go
to work”. Of course, then I went back into local softball and basketball. I still had my
sports, just not on the professional level.
Interviewer: 1953, you„re playing with the Kalamazoo lassies and you were saying,
just now, that they loaned you out, what does that mean?
South Bend was short players, so they sent me there to help out, which they did a lot of
girls. In fact, that’s the only time my sister and I played on the same team; she was
loaned to South Bend also, so then we got to live together for those couple of months and
play on the same team, which was the first time. 51:01
Interviewer: We‟re going to start winding it down, were about down to about five
minutes more of tape, so we‟re going to wind it down and when they change the tape
we‟ll get back into more of this. I wanted you to know in advance that we‟re going
to stop here just briefly and switch the tapes.
Okay
Interviewer: I want to get into, not right now, but I obviously want to get into you
being in South Bend with your sister. I think that‟s interesting and hopefully there
32
�are little stories there. You haven‟t really talked a lot about your own playing and
the games. I don‟t know if it‟s just a matter of not remembering specific games, but
I‟d like to talk more about some of the games that you played, and the other thing is
more of the details of things like uniforms and equipment, because when you were
playing on the sand lots you were saying somebody had a glove and somebody had a
ball and somebody had a bat you always used and it was different when you became
professional, so I want to get into those kinds of details as well.
Yes, okay 52:02
Interviewer: Not being able to hit a home run—my entire time in the little league,
as a pitcher, I only had one home run. Are you ready for this one? It was a bunt
and they made so many mistakes, they overthrew this one and overthrew that one,
so that was my claim to fame. My only homerun was on a bunt.
Isn’t that funny?
Interviewer: Now, we‟re into some of the details of the league, how the league was
run, how you perform within the league, and let‟s start with the uniform. 53:03
When you were playing in the back sand lots it was what? Basically blue jeans and
what not, whatever you could wear. When did you first, if you can recall, first see
the uniform, the girl‟s uniform?
Well, I was fortunate to see the Lassies in Muskegon when they came there in 1946, so I
knew what they were wearing before I ever joined the league.
Interviewer: What was your reaction? You‟re a young girl and you‟re supposed to
dress in certain ways. Certainly you couldn‟t walk out in the street, at fourteen
33
�years old, wearing a skirt like that. Was there any reaction at all of the uniforms
from you?
I don’t think so, I think a rule is a rule and that was the uniform to wear, and if you didn’t
like it you wouldn’t play. There was no question, it’s like all the rules, and you just had
to abide by the rules. 54:01
Interviewer: What was the uniform that you wore, the first one--with the
Springfield Sallies? What were the colors and what did it look like?
Well, I had been fortunate, I had a white uniform with green trim, and, basically, that’s
what I had in Kalamazoo, except on the road, then we wore gold, but our home uniforms
were white with green, just like I was accustom to.
Interviewer: Hat, baseball hat?
Hat and those were like wool hats, socks, knee socks that were wool.
Interviewer: Did you wear cleats?
Yes
Interviewer: So, they were just like professional baseball.
Yes, and those were not furnished.
Interviewer: Oh, really?
No, you bought your own cleats and your own glove. The bats and balls were furnished,
and the uniform, but we provided our own mitt. 55:02
Interviewer: Why? 56:08 You said you had to furnish your own shoes, the cleats,
and your own glove, out of your own pocket. Why was that, the balls and the bats
and the uniform, all that was taken care of?
I don’t know why either, you know.
34
�Interviewer: The skirt itself also had shorts underneath, but the skirt did not
protect your knees sliding in or anything. Did you ever have an incident where you
had to slide into a base that you can remember?
No
Interviewer: But you saw other do that?
Yes, and in the earlier years those skirts were a little longer and they were fuller. 57:02
But, they learned to make those more chic like and shorter, where it was easier when
throwing and sliding and running, otherwise you had too much of a skirt.
Interviewer: Right, did you ever see anyone slide in? What happens when they
slide onto a base?
Well, a lot of the girls had strawberries, raw hips, and some had it all year long, because
they were used to that. I think my sister was one of the first people back then that slid
head first. You know, they all do it today, but years ago they didn’t do that and I think
she was the first one that I can recall seeing slide head first.
Interviewer: From a civilian perspective, a male civilian perspective, I find it really
difficult to grasp that you would slide into a base. 58:02
Literally, you call it a
strawberry and we‟re talking about scraping the skin in the dirt and the stones and
all that.
That’s right
Interviewer: Well, did they put anything on it? Did you put a band aid on it?
Oh yeah, they got treated afterwards by the chaperone,
35
�Interviewer: But this was common. This is something that went on game after
game and women were always getting these scrapes and what not, but that didn‟t
strike you as strange?
No, it’s like that was the rule and you just abided by it.
Interviewer: so, the uniform, each team had their own uniforms so you could tell
the difference between the teams, obviously, but you said you had, I missed the
wording, but you said you had one kind of uniform and then you had a second kind
of uniform?
Yeah, we wore white uniforms at home and colored on the road, which the major leagues
do now too. 59:00 But, we did that way back then.
Interviewer: I get you now, okay—tell us about the fans. You got good crowds?
Very good, very good
Interviewer: These were people who were e supporting one team or the other, the
home team or the other team, but were there any, in particular, that you can recall,
particular fans?
Well, I had a lot of friends in Kalamazoo, being I worked there during the winter months,
and I would become acquainted with people, but we had regular followings though. Back
in Muskegon we had a “knothole gang”, kids that stood outside the fence and they had
little holes in the fence to look through and they called them the “knothole gang”. Back
in Muskegon, one year, they had a hundred and forty thousand fans, which was a record,
and at one game they had seven thousand. 00:01
Interviewer: Now, the “knotholes” is because they couldn‟t afford the ticket to get
in, right? So, they just looked through the holes in the wood.
36
�Yes, and I see people today, kids, guys in Muskegon who were part of that. They come
up and say, “I used to go to the games and I was part of the “knothole gang””.
Interviewer: We got to talk to those guys--that‟s wonderful. Now, I know that
professional baseball, whether it‟s women‟s baseball or male baseball, there are
certain—there are fans that like one particular player or a couple of players. Did
you ever have a fan club?
Kind of, yes, I—it’s easy for me because I like people and I didn’t have a problem.
Interviewer: Tell us about this, how did you know that these people were watching?
These were young boys?
Yes, and off the field I was friends with them, and we became friends because they came
to the ball games. 1:03 And after the game we’d go out and eat and during the day, or
on weekends, we’d go to a movie, and these fellows would follow us wherever we went.
When they could do that, their work would allow them to do that, and they would come
to Grand Rapids, Fort Wayne, and South Bend. We were centrally located in Kalamazoo,
so these fellas could move around, and they did not miss a game. There must have been
six or eight of them.
Interviewer: Were they around your age?
Yes
Interviewer: Okay, what was their motivation for following you guys around?
Well, I’m not sure, and they became friends with the other girls too and some of them
might have their eye on one of them and be interested. I mean, there was always that
chance. 2:01
37
�Interviewer: These are baseball fans who just happen to be enamored by you and
your teammates since they would travel around to different places. I imagine that
was also true of other teams. I don‟t know if you know that or not, but do you think
that‟s true of other teams?
I think so, I think so, I’m sure that’s how some of the girls met their husbands, by going
to ball games.
Interviewer: You were a pitcher through most of your career?
Yes
Interviewer: You started off, as I recall that, you played in left field and because of
your Charlie horses you were made into a pitcher. Did you feel that you got better
as a pitcher as time goes on, simply because you were practicing, obviously, more
and more, but did you feel like you got better, or did you just kind of take to being a
pitcher?
I don’t know if I got better. I felt, myself, that I was kind of wild, but, you know, I’m left
handed and that’s what they say, that left handers are wild. 3:05
Interviewer: Did you ever “bean” anybody?
No, but close, and one incident, we were in New York and the leadoff batter was a small
girl and the first pitch I threw went behind her instead of in front of her, and she yelled so
loud you could have heard her for a mile. She was just like, you know, petrified. Well,
that made me laugh and everybody there was laughing and I could not keep a straight
face after that, the way she yelled. I couldn’t believe I did it to start with, but it was just
an incident I’ll never forget.
38
�Interviewer: There had to be individual batters that everybody knew was a really
good batter. 4:03 When I was in little league there was a guy that was taller than
all the rest of us and everybody knew that this guy was a major hitter. So, the first
time he ever came up to me, as a pitcher, I remember that distinctly. Now, this
interview is not about me, so I‟m not going to go into details, but I want to know, did
something like that happen to you? There was somebody who already had a
reputation for being a hitter and you‟re the pitcher, and your job is to strike that
person out, or at the very least, have them hit the ball in such a way that your
teammates can get them out. Now, can you recall running up against somebody who
was—had a reputation for being a good hitter?
Well, we had several in the league; in fact, one of them was on our own team, Doris
Sams, who was one of the league’s best hitters, but there were several on other teams that
you had to watch out for.
Interviewer: Do you recall any incident where you had real trouble striking a
person out? 5:02
No, not to my knowledge
Interviewer: Did anyone hit a home run off of you?
I don’t think so, I don’t remember any.
Interviewer: What was the biggest fear, as a pitcher, what was the biggest fear you
had of the batter? In terms of, are they going to hit it into right field, left field, are
they going to hit a line drive, what were the ones that you were concerned the if you
threw the ball a certain way, it was going to get hit in a certain way and then you
guys were in trouble, do you remember? Because I can remember when I was a
39
�pitcher, one of the things I was concerned about was when they would hit over my
head right down the line and, of course, the short stop and they would all try—and
then you would have bases running. Did any of that kind of strategy go through
your head when you were pitching?
Nope, nope, I think I was so busy trying to get the ball over the plate that I didn’t worry
about where they were going to hit it. 6:02
Interviewer: Okay, did you have a special? Was your fast ball really good? Did
you have a curve ball?
Mostly fast ball, but being a left hander you had a natural curve, so that’s one thing the
catcher was worried about, you know, a left hander throwing it.
Interviewer: What was your actual pitching style? I raised my leg and threw that
way. How did you pitch?
Straight overhand
Interviewer: But you had to wind up?
Oh, yeah
Interviewer: And then what? You brought the ball here, right, and then what?
Then I kicked my leg too.
Interviewer: You did kick your leg?
Yeah
Interviewer: That gave you the traction to do the overhand?
Right, to throw straight down, you know.
Interviewer: Any times when the ball came straight at you, when they hit the ball?
7:01
40
�A couple of times
Interviewer: Can you talk about that? Do you remember that?
No, I was fast enough to reach out, you know. I didn’t get hit with it anyway. I was
either fast enough to get out of the way or catch it.
Interviewer: Do you remember any close games? I mean ones where you really
didn‟t know if you were going to win or not?
Not right off hand, no. I guess we’re talking about too many years ago that nothing sticks
in my mind.
Interviewer: Sure, sure, you were talking about this “knothole gang” and these
young gentlemen who used to follow you around. What about girls, did girls come
to the games? I mean, eleven, twelve, thirteen, you know, a little younger than you,
but were there girls at these games?
I’m sure there were, because we had bat girls, too. There were young girls that hung
around the ball park and then they became a bat girl, but most of them were not real
young kids. 8:05 There were lots of ladies there, lots of women that enjoyed the sport.
Interviewer: I was thinking that here you had these male admirers that were
following you around, and I‟m just wondering why there were no younger girls that
were fascinated by the baseball and would want to meet with you and talk to you.
I don’t know, I think that it wasn’t that popular yet in the schools like todays time. They
didn’t do that in school like they do today.
Interviewer: Did you have to sign autographs?
Yes
Interviewer: Like balls and things like that?
41
�Yes, we did a lot of that.
Interviewer: Was that done just after the game? People would come up and ask
you for an autograph?
Sure
Interviewer: What was your reaction to that? You‟d seen Yankee‟s baseball gets
those sorts of things and did you just take that in stride that somebody wanted your
autograph?
Yeah, I didn’t think about it like I’m really something, and it seemed like that was the
thing to do. 9:05 You liked that they wanted your autograph and I liked it when the
people liked me.
Interviewer: Did you ever get interviewed for a newspaper or radio during those
days, do you remember?
No, I’m trying to think
Interviewer: In terms of—I want to get, once again, down to the “South Bend Blue
Sox” when you were loaned out. You were part of a major team, the “Kalamazoo
Lassies”, you were part of a touring team, the “Springfield Sallies”, was that a
different experience for you to be just loaned out to a team?
Yes
Interviewer: In what way?
I don’t know, but I didn’t like it, and I know a lot of girls were loaned. My sister played
on about eight different teams and I guess that comes with the territory, but I didn’t like it
when I was loaned out. 10:07
Interviewer: Why?
42
�I don’t know, I guess I thought, I didn’t know if Kalamazoo didn’t need me, and maybe it
hurt my feelings, and maybe that’s why I quit at the end of the year.
Interviewer: I guess that‟s what I was getting at, maybe that was part of the
motivation.
It was like; “I’m not going back”, but they still had my contract in Kalamazoo. I’m like,
“I’m not going to go back and have them start shifting me around”.
Interviewer: When you‟re playing with the “Lassies”, and when you played with
the “Sally‟s”, you had mentioned that there‟s a sense of--you have a team, there‟s a
camaraderie, you know the people, you‟re going through the same kinds of trials
and tribulations, but with the South Bend team did you feel that, it was—did you
feel like you were part of that team? 11:00
Yeah, it was alright
Interviewer: A different uniform?
Oh yeah—well, the same short skirt, different colors is all.
Interviewer: Right, how did you get fitted for those? Did they have a tailor there,
or something?
Yeah, they had places they would take them and have them dry cleaned and stuff. They
had places to take them, because we didn’t wash our own uniforms. Those were left at
the clubhouse and I believe the chaperone, that was her job to make sure the uniforms got
cleaned, so they were dry cleaned, you know.
Interviewer: What did you do for—you mentioned before that on the off days, or
the days before you played a game, you would either go swimming, or you would go
43
�to the movies, but what was some of the other recreation? What were some of the
other things you used to do?
Right off hand I can’t tell you.
Interviewer: Were you a reader, did you like to read?
Sure, but then you didn’t have TV like today. 12:02 You didn’t sit home and watch TV,
and it’s like we had something going on all the time, maybe with several of us going
shopping.
Interviewer: Were you very fashion conscious?
No, not really, of course I worked in the bank, so you had to wear skirts again, you
always wore a dress, so that part of it, you weren’t in slacks like you are today. That
wasn’t the style.
Interviewer: Right, now during this period of time, you‟re starting out at seventeen
and you‟re into your twenties, and if this is too personal you just don‟t have to say
anything, but it was at this time—usually, when a young girl starts to think about
boys and boys start thinking about girls. Was there anybody in the wings there?
13:00
Yup, I had boy friends in Kalamazoo, and I had them in Muskegon while I was in high
school, but nothing serious on my part, but I had several boyfriends.
Interviewer: Now, these boyfriends--were they people you attracted because you
were a ball player, or they met you when you were not playing ball?
Well, both
44
�Interviewer: Because that‟s got to be flattering, to be playing baseball and some guy
comes up and he‟s obviously interested in talking to you and maybe wants to go out
to a movie, or something like that?
Yes, and I did that a lot, or we went swimming. After the game they took you out for
dinner. We had a couple of hours until we had to be back, but we went out for dinner a
lots of times after the ball game, but I did go places with them, or go to movies—a lot of
activities.
Interviewer: Did you travel in groups when you went on these dates, and whatnot?
Was there like two of you, or three of you, a group of you? 14:05
Yes, maybe a couple of the girls and two or three of the boys.
Interviewer: Were you a dancer?
No, back then I wasn’t. I just wasn’t interested then.
Interviewer: We had talked earlier about the fact that you didn‟t see baseball as a
career for you, and you could see that there was something else you wanted to do,
what did you want to do besides baseball, or did you know at that time? I know you
worked in a bank, but that was basically because it was a job, but what did you
want to do?
Well, I think at that point in my life, I thought I’d be in banking all my life. I wasn’t
scouting around looking for something new. I wished I had gone on to college, and
living in Kalamazoo, that would have been ideal.
Interviewer: That was available to women, at that time, to be able to go to college?
15:02
45
�Yes, and some of our girls did that, some of the girls that I roomed with. I wish I had,
because I would be a physical education teacher.
Interviewer: Okay, that makes sense.
That’s the regret I have, of not getting into PE.
Interviewer: Right, but you, after you—let‟s talk about that. The south Bend Blue
Sox, you still have a contract with Kalamazoo though, right?
Yes
Interviewer: What made you decide to quit baseball? The league didn‟t fold until
1954.
Right
Interviewer: That wasn‟t the reason.
No, I got my contract in 1954, but I was working at the bank, and I just decided I wasn’t
going to do that, and then have them shift me around, which I had no idea they would,
but I just thought, “I’ll just keep my job”, and it’s funny how that happened, because the
league stopped then that year. 16:08 In 1954 it was all done.
Interviewer: Was your sister still playing?
Yes
Interviewer: So, what was her reaction to your quitting, do you remember?
No
Interviewer: There was no conversation about, “What are you doing?” “Are you
crazy?” “What are you doing?” There was nothing like that?
No
Interviewer: What about your dad?
46
�I think he didn’t like it, because he really enjoyed the fact that we played, and that was
really his life, you know, but he didn’t try to stop me.
Interviewer: Well, it was a responsible job, and working at a bank, at that time, was
a very prestigious thing.
Right
Interviewer: But what about—and maybe it‟s too much detail, but what about the
money, was the bank paying better than baseball, or was baseball paying better
than the bank?
No, I think I was making more playing baseball. Maybe not a lot more, but I was making
more than on the job. 17:03
Interviewer: But, you didn‟t have to travel, didn‟t have to get on the bus, didn‟t
have to do a lot of that sort of thing.
Right
Interviewer: Did you—forgive me because my dates are not where they should be,
but did you go to Cuba?
No, I was not in the league at that time.
Interviewer: Okay, was there any unusual place that you went beside just to South
Bend and Kalamazoo. Was there any particular place that really sticks out, maybe
New York City or someplace like that?
When I played on tour there were a lot of places, and Washington was one of them, and
New York.
Interviewer: Washington D.C.?
Yes
47
�Interviewer: What was your impression of Washington? This is has got to be—I
remember when I first went to Washington D.C., it‟s amazing with all those
monuments and all that, and you were a young kid.
I know, and you know, they kept us so busy playing one game here and moving into one
game there, that I wasn’t really impressed too much with a lot of cities. I liked the fact
that I had been there, and we did see a lot of the country. 18:05 When we were on tour
we went over a hundred thousand miles each summer, and played games, usually one
night stands. It took us all the way from the Midwest, down south, back up to the east
coast, and then we went up into Canada. So, we went across the border into Canada, and
those are things that never would have happened in my lifetime.
Interviewer: If you were a banker.
That’s right, yeah
Interviewer: What was it like down south?
Different than the way we live, but nothing sticks out in my mind that—where the people
were so—I think the people down south are really nice people, where I can’t always say
that when you get to big cities. 19:04 You know, you get to New York and Newark
and some of those big cities and everybody’s-- it’s a busy life, it’s a different life style.
Interviewer: Did you have hecklers?
Yes
Interviewer: Like what? Do you remember? Probably in New York
Yeah well, I just—I can’t tell you what I---anything that sticks out in my mind.
Interviewer: But, you did get heckled, and there were people that would yell out.
48
�“White girls can’t play ball”, you know, and stuff like that. Of course I think they change
their mind once they see us play, and that’s when it comes about, you know. They can
talk and holler all they want, but once they see the game they know better. 20:00
Interviewer: What was the process of getting out of your contract with Kalamazoo,
or did it just end and then you just decided not to renew, what happened?
They sent me a contract and I just returned it and said I wasn’t interested.
Interviewer: Your coach didn‟t contact you or say, “Why aren‟t you going to do
this?”
No, it went back to the business manager and they probably had enough players that they
didn’t worry about it.
Interviewer: How did you find out that the league folded?
Well, living in Kalamazoo I was able to be up on the latest news with that, and I was
rooming with one of the girls that was playing. We roomed together and then when I
stopped playing ball we still roomed together. I went to work and she went to play ball,
so I knew, because I was still friends with all the girls. 21:02
Interviewer: What was your reaction?
Well, I just couldn’t believe it, but I’m sure the ones still playing ball couldn’t believe it
more than me, and I was stunned. I thought they’d still be playing.
Interviewer: Did you have any emotional reaction? Were you angry or sad or
anything like that?
No, because I wasn’t part of it anymore.
Interviewer: Did you miss it?
49
�Yes, but I did go back into softball, local softball in Kalamazoo, so I was still playing,
and then we started playing basketball, so I was still active. Then I got into bowling and
some of the other sports.
Interviewer: So, sports have been a major part of your life.
Yes
Interviewer: Let‟s talk about the aftermath of playing baseball. 22:02
You‟re
working at the bank now, and what was the next major thing that happened in your
life?
Well, I still would have been in Kalamazoo, but my mom got sick, back in Muskegon and
my three sisters that were still home got married and they went away with their husbands
to the war. So, they all left town and my mom wasn’t well, and that’s when I decided I
better quit my job at Comerica and go back home and see if I could help.
Interviewer: So, what did you do? What work were you doing back home?
Well, I worked in a bank.
Interviewer: I see, so you just found another job in a bank.
The vice-president there got be a job back in Muskegon, so I knew when I went home
that I already had a job, and then I lived at home with my folks, and there were still some
of the kids’ home, the younger ones.
Interviewer: What happened to your older sister that was playing baseball? When
baseball was over with what did she do? 23:01
She stayed in Rockford the first year.
Interviewer: Rockford, Illinois?
50
�Yeah, that’s where she ended up playing ball, so she got a job over there and things
weren’t working out right, so she came back home and I got her a job in the bank, so then
she worked at the bank for twenty-five years after that, so that was good for her and then
she got settled down.
Interviewer: Did you start a family?
No, I never did. I don’t know, I guess because I came from a big family I never felt like I
missed anything. We always had little kids around, you know, and by then we had nieces
and nephews and my life was already full.
Interviewer: Looking back, now we had talked earlier about when you played
baseball you really had no idea of the effect that your actions, and the actions of
your fellow ball players, as women, were having on this culture and on the way
women play sports. 24:10
Now, go to any high school in America and you‟ve got a
girls baseball team, a girls basketball team and whatever. When you were growing
up that didn‟t happen, that didn‟t exist at all.
No
Interviewer: So, here you are working in the bank now, the league is over with,
you‟re going on with your life, there‟s your family, there‟s families around you,
when did you start thinking—when did you start becoming aware of the effect that
professional women‟s baseball had? Was there any, even in the fifties and into the
sixties, was there any idea that there was some affect that you had?
No not really, it took about twenty years after our league folded and then we started
having reunions and then things started happening where then we got inducted into the
Cooperstown Hall of Fame. 25:10
51
�Interviewer: When was the first reunion that you can remember, do you remember
that?
I believe it was 1980.
Interviewer: So, how did you find out there was going to be a reunion?
They had one of our girls out of Kalamazoo, and she started it.
Interviewer: Do you remember who it was?
June Peppas, she had a print shop, in fact, she really lived in Allegan at that time, but she
go everybody’s names and addresses and people that she didn’t have, somebody else
would help her find them. They’d say, “Oh, I know so and so and I know where they
live, or I have their address”, and she formed the first reunion, and we went to Chicago.
Interviewer: How did you find out, did you get an invitation in the mail? How did
you find out?
She sent out invitations and planned the whole thing, with help. 26:04
Interviewer: I want you to think about this now. What was your reaction when you
opened up that piece of paper and this has been twenty years? You haven‟ played
baseball professionally, you left early and you open this thing up and they‟re saying,
“We want you to come”.
I thought, “Great, I get to see all the girls again”, and I had friends still in Kalamazoo, so
we talked to each other and I went down to Kalamazoo and we rode together to Chicago
to the reunion. I rode with other girls who had roomed with us before, and it was just
great seeing everybody after all those years.
Interviewer: Can you recall any of the conversation in the car going up? You must
have had—the anticipation alone of seeing all these people you really cared for and
52
�had a major impact in your life, what was that like being in a car driving to
Chicago? 27:00
Well, it was, “I wonder about her and I wonder about her. Will she be there, or is she still
around, or what does she look like?”
Interviewer: So, you arrive by car and there‟s what, three or four of you?
Yes
Interviewer: You‟re at the hotel where you‟re going to have the reunion. Do you
recall walking into the lobby? Tell us about that.
Oh, it was great, and there were people all over that had already gotten there, it was
wonderful, you could not believe it.
Interviewer: Did you recognize people?
Yes, most everybody
Interviewer: But you were a little bit older at that time, but not that much really,
but you recognized people huh?
Yeah, and there was one girl everybody was looking for who was famous, Dotty
Schroeder, she was on the cover of a men’s sports magazine back in those years when we
played ball, and she was beautiful. She was one that I had roomed with in Kalamazoo,
but when she walked into the hotel—everybody was waiting to see when Dotty would
come. 28:08 she walked in and everybody just stopped talking and were just looking.
She wasn’t anybody that was forward, and she just stood there and was starting to get
embarrassed. It was only for a few seconds, but it seemed like a long time. I said,
“You’re just as ugly as you always were”, and that cracked everybody up, you know, it
was like break the silence, you know, but that started everybody.
53
�Interviewer: Why was she kind of—because I remember from what I‟ve read and
the research I‟ve done, always the focus was on the team, it was never about
individuals. Not like Mickey Mantle or any of the baseball players that you—the
male baseball players. How come she stood out? 29:01
Well, she was always one of the best, and there were others like that, Doris Sams, played
with Kalamazoo, and she was another one, a great hitter, a great fielder, and a pitcher, she
could pitch too, and she was one of the famous ones, and we had quite a few of those.
Interviewer: But for some reason Dotty Schroeder, for you, for all of you, seemed to
be the one everyone wanted to see there.
Yeah, I think everybody thought, “I wonder what she looks like now?” I don’t know if
you ever said it, but you could tell that’s what people were thinking, and she looked the
same, she looked the same.
Interviewer: I mentioned to you earlier, before the interview, that I‟d been to
Flying Tigers reunions, and I‟ve been to reunions where there are these very close
knit people from the WWII era. You were there for three days?
Yeah 30:01
Interviewer: And you had dinners and what not, and was there talk about liking it
so much you want to do this again?
Yes, that’s when we decided we would do it every five years, and we did do it every five
years for a little while, but then we stopped and we went to two years. Well then it
wasn’t too long and now we do it every year. It depends on the location of the reunion,
how many girls we get to come. If it’s centrally located we get them from the east and
54
�the west, where if you have to go clear to California, sometimes you don’t get the girls
from out east. You know, not everybody can afford to do this.
Interviewer: After the first reunion, which was just kind of thrown together
because this one woman went through all the hassle, and I know what it‟s like to
have to put on one of these things, you made it more formal and you have a board of
directors, and you ended up as an association. 31:04
Yes, after that
Interviewer: So, then individuals were elected to the board and they would decide,
“Okay, we‟re going to have a reunion in Milwaukee”, or we‟re going to have a
reunion here or wherever it is. Did you vote on that?
A lot of it depended on if somebody volunteered to do it, and you’re talking about a lot of
work. You’ve got to be in a place where you have help, and you can’t go to some far out
place where you’re the only one. You can’t do it by yourself. Where like going to
California there must have been ten or twelve girls out that way, close by, that could help
and put on the reunion. We went to Fort Wayne for quite a while and we had many
reunions there. You’ve heard of “Run Jane Run”?
Interviewer: Yeah, sure
When that was coming into town, in Fort Wayne, we’d be part of that, because our girls
would get into the golf tournaments and stuff. 32:02 That worked for a lot of years,
going to Fort Wayne, but we had people there to do that.
Interviewer: After the first reunion, when did it start to become more of a public—
when did you start becoming more into the public? When you were in baseball,
obviously, you were part of the public, because the public came out to see you and
55
�they wanted your autograph and all that, but then you had this twenty years where
you‟re working in the bank and your sister‟s working in the bank, people are
married and they‟re having kids and all that, and now you have this reunion, and
people have reunions because they want to get together and share the experiences
they went through, so that‟s something special. When did you start to realize that
the public was starting to, then or even earlier, know that this was something
special?
I think the public didn’t get involved until we went to Cooperstown. 33:03 We were
admitted into Cooperstown, and of course, that became public all over the country, and
then that’s when Penny Marshall got a hold of it and said, “Let’s make a movie”.
Interviewer: Let‟s back up just a little bit. Did you ever have—I can tell just by
talking to you in this interview that you didn‟t exactly toot your own horn and say,
“I‟m this and I‟m that”, it‟s just not you, but did people know that you played
baseball when you were in the bank, for example? Where there people that come up
to you and asked for your autograph?
Back then they weren’t asking for autographs. People knew and it wasn’t something you
talked about every day, and of course, for a lot of years I was still involved in softball, so
I was going to tournaments and going out of town to play ball, but being from Muskegon
and living there and having a team there at one time, those people always knew that we
played ball with the girls. 34:04 So, that was always a known fact, because we were
local.
Interviewer: But the change really happened when you got inducted into the
Baseball Hall of Fame. How did that happen?
56
�I think one of our women started working on that and then when it became known, there
were several players that wanted to be inducted all by themselves. They thought they
should be the only ones that should be in it, not the rest, well people that were running it
didn’t agree with that. They said, “We’ll all go or forget it, we’re not going to work on
it”, so it had to be all of us, which was only fair, because whose going to go around and
say this one deserves to be there, but not that one.
Interviewer: So, they set a date for the formal induction. 35:00 It was going to be
at the Baseball Hall of Fame and were you invited, or was it open to anyone that
wanted to go, or how did that work out?
Well, we were invited by the hall of fame, but that’s still—you had to go there and pay
your own expenses, and somebody had to set up all this stuff to have our big banquet
there, and of course, we had to start working on places to stay. You’ve been to
Cooperstown probably?
Interviewer: I have not, but—
It’s very small, just a one horse town and they had not one third enough places. Well, we
ended up having like seven hundred people, and they couldn’t believe it. They just were
amazed, which they have been ever since, because of how popular the whole this is since
we’ve been there. 36:01 They get more inquiries about our league than anything and
they tell us that themselves.
Interviewer: So, you get the invitation that you can go to the induction and you
went, right? How did you get there?
I flew and I stayed—we didn’t have a place in Cooperstown, we stayed about twenty
miles north, and I stayed with three other girls.
57
�Interviewer: What about your sister?
She wasn’t able to go at that time. She did not go, but I went there and stayed with
friends and then we had to drive back and forth to Cooperstown, but we had to do that
anyway. We’ve been invited back since then and we’ve stayed at Syracuse, and drive in
to Cooperstown.
Interviewer: Okay, tell me about that first day of walking into the Hall of Fame.
What was—I saw the movie and I know in the actual movie they used a different
room, it wasn‟t the actual place. 37:04 But, give me a visual, show me what you
were seeing. Was there an actual ribbon cut and all that kind of thing? Well, tell us
about that.
To tell you the truth, it was so crowded, there were so many people, you just couldn’t
even get up close to see the exhibit and everything. You had to go there another time in
order to appreciate what was there, but it was fantastic. The people just were just all over
the place and Cooperstown could not believe it. It was like we took them by storm, you
know, and they still tell us that. I’ve gone back a couple of times with different groups,
eight of us one time and four of us another time, and they always tell us how wonderful it
is. That we’re there and that the people just love it and everybody that works in town
says the same thing. 38:03
Interviewer: I know it‟s going back a ways, but I‟m trying to get inside of you for a
moment. You‟re very modest, and that‟s very obvious from this interview and from
the times that we‟ve talked on the phone and what not, but please, just for the sake
of this moment—you‟re there, you‟re being inducted as a team, not you alright?
What did you feel like?
58
�Oh, I thought it was fantastic, and it’s beyond your imagination. Nothing you would
have ever dreamed of. All the years you played ball you didn’t dream of that.
Interviewer: Let me ask you what might seem like a stupid question. Why do you
think you were inducted, not you, but the team, why were you inducted into the
Baseball Hall of Fame?
Well, I think it got to the point where they had to do something about women in sports,
plus the Negro leagues. 39:03 That stuff had been put on hold too long, because the
Negro league could say the same thing. We’re, like, in the same boat they’re in and I
think that they thought it was time. And I know they’re not sorry at all that they did it, at
Cooperstown, because it has really made their place a lot more popular.
Interviewer: Did you get a chance to talk to some of the other ball players, the
women ball players, about their feelings being inducted into the Hall of Fame?
Oh yeah, everybody just was amazed, you just can’t believe it.
Interviewer: You keep saying that part and it‟s interesting that you do, because you
played the game because you loved the game, and you never thought in your wildest
dreams that it would go anywhere beyond that. 40-:02
Never
Interviewer: But, now you‟re in the Baseball Hall of Fame, which somebody‟s
telling you, whether you want to know it or not, they‟re saying, “This is something
really special”. Did it finally dawn on you that you were actually part of something
that‟s part of American history?
Well, that started the ball rolling and then the movie came along, right from that point on,
and once the movie came out that just broke it all and it’s just been wild ever since.
59
�Interviewer: Then the world knew about it, and the world recognized something
that you didn‟t even recognize, that you did something extra ordinary with your
teammates.
Yes, and we hear about it every day now, and we go out and tell the history of our league
to different groups, talk to young kids, third graders, little girls that play ball, give
autographs, you know, give them—and of course we have our own baseball cards, and
we pass out baseball cards. 41:08 Anybody, any age group that we go to, just can’t stop
thanking us enough for what we have done for women’s sports.
Interviewer: Going back to baseball cards, and I want to get back to this, but did
you have baseball cards when you were playing?
No, that came about after all this. I can’t tell you what year, but it hasn’t been all that
many years, maybe ten or fifteen at the most.
Interviewer: What do you think was the overall effect of this league , looking back
now, and now you‟ve gone through this period where you‟d played ball and didn‟t
realize you were doing something extra ordinary, and now the world is telling you
that you did something extra ordinary and it hasn‟t gone to your head I noticed, but
let‟s really take this moment. 42:08 What does it mean to you, personally, what
does it mean to you, this experience you went through and now you‟ve seen the
reaction of the entire world? They made a movie about it. When you were
seventeen and going to the movies, the movies were up there, you weren‟t a movie,
you were just a seventeen year old. What does it mean to you to look back now?
What does it mean to you, this whole experience you went through?
60
�Well, I don’t know if it means a lot in my life. I mean I don’t have any gains by it or
anything. I enjoy being popular and that everybody else enjoys it. I like to talk about it
and give them all the history that I can give them; I enjoy that part of it. I never sit back
and think, “Look at me, I’m something”. 43:04 I’m just glad I’m part of it and can do
what I can do for girls in sports today.
Interviewer: On a final note, I always ask this of every veteran, if they‟re in battle
or not in battle or from that period of time. Looking back, I know that you said
thought this interview that you really didn‟t know that it would ever turn out like
this, that this would have that kind of positive—and that‟s what it comes down to, a
very positive effect on women and little girls and what not, and in your wildest
dreams you said you never knew this was going to happen. Can you, somewhere
inside of you, can you—is there any glimmer that somewhere back then you knew
you were doing something that might turn into something like this? Was there any
glimmer at all back then?
No, no
Interviewer: But, were you that surprised when it happened? 44:04
Yes, I worked many years after all of this and never talked about it with people. But,
being local, people knew about it, but it was not something you discussed. You never
said, “Look at me, I played ball, I played pro ball”. It was just a part of your life and it
was in the past. If they didn’t know about it, no problem, but in Muskegon lots of people
knew about it, so it was hard to get away from it, because people who had gone to the
ball games still were living. You would, like, go to the store and you’d see fellows that
had been going to the ball games, and they’d yell at ya, “Hey”, and they remembered that
61
�you were one of the ones that played ball and that’s before any of this stuff ever came
out, and I really enjoyed that with people, or even today with people that are older, but
they were young kids then. 45:08 They would say, “I remember, I used to be part of the
gang that went there”, so it’s fun.
Interviewer: One final question and it‟s going to be a tough one, because I‟m pretty
sure you don‟t think in these terms, but can you try on this one? What do you think
the legacy of the women‟s baseball is, what‟s it left behind, what‟s the legacy of what
you all did?
I hope we opened up sports for girls. I hope we helped with the Title IX. I feel like we
did, the way sports has taken hold in all the high schools and college, for women, and I
think we opened the door, and I think they’ll tell you that, a lot of the other ones that are
in pro sports will tell you that. 46:10 I was in Cooperstown on a visit when a lady was
there with her grandchildren, and she was part of Title IX from the very beginning. She
said, “I’m just amazed to meet you girls. To think that I met you and you were part of
that league”. She said, “I don’t believe it”, and here she’s worked on Title Nine all her
life and she was just dumb founded that she was introduced to us. I think that’s a great
feeling.
Interviewer: Well, it‟s been an honor talking with you.
Well, thank you
Interviewer: Thank you so much.
I appreciate it 47:00
62
�63
�64
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
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<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
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<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-58_DCook0176BB
Title
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Cook, Doris (Interview outline and video), 2010
Creator
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Cook, Doris
Description
An account of the resource
Doris Cook was born in Muskegon, Michigan in 1939. She grew up in a large family and played baseball and other sports. When a women's professional baseball team moved to Muskegon in 1946, her older sister tried out and joined the team. Doris then joined the league after finishing high school in 1949, and played first for the Springfield Sallies, a barnstorming team, and then for the Kalamazoo Lassies and the South Bend Blue Sox, and played through the 1953 season. She initially expected to be an outfielder, but when she had some problems running, she was converted to a pitcher, and was a pitcher throughout her professional career.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Michigan
Language
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eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-08-04
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
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application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3b98eed957e78aae23ddbcb86e0946f8.m4v
e3173f2c6d686c9e5a100a7d5a68fc0f
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3e276c6d4e9f7fc07b0ee8c54617d633.pdf
1e09d055abdb248d6048eae7ebcc5049
PDF Text
Text
Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Mike Corona
Born: Racine, Wisconsin, November 9, 1928
Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Library of Congress Veterans History Project
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer
Interviewer: “Mike if we could begin with your name and where and when were
you born?”
My name is Michael D. Corona and I was born in the city of Racine, Wisconsin on
November 9, 1928 and I was born right in my own house at 1300 Lake Avenue in
Racine.
Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like?”
My early childhood was fine except that when I was four years old I had scarlet fever and
I was put back a grade in school and that put me graduating a year behind all the friends
that I played ball with, worked out with and went to school with you know, but other than
that my childhood was fine. My mother and father were the greatest. :59
Interviewer: “What did your dad do?”
My dad worked in a foundry. He was a molder and he was a jobbing molder at Belle
City Racine Steel Castings Company, where I, after I graduated from Horlick High
School in 1947, I went to work there myself for thirty-two and a half years.
Interviewer: “Your mother was a housewife?”
My mother was a homemaker, plus she worked at Rainfare, Inc., which made raincoats,
pants, clothing and everything and during the war they made a lot of raincoats for the
army and I eventually worked, when I was a sophomore and Junior in high school, I
worked at Rainfare part time. 1:46
Interviewer: “Did you have brothers and sisters?”
I have three other brothers and three sisters and now I’m the only brother that’s left.
Three of my brothers have passed away.
Interviewer: “Now, you lived in a neighborhood that had a ball park nearby. Tell
us about how close it was and what was that ball park anyway?” 2:07
The ball part was the Horlick Athletic Field, which was three and a half blocks south of
where I lived. It’s where all the big name teams played; all the high schools used it for
football and all of the baseball. In fact they had midget auto racing there, they had
wrestling and they had Joe Darcetti, Joe Darcetti was, I don’t know if you remember, he
1
�was Gorgeous George in the wrestling field. He was there, they had big entertainment
like Al Schacht the clown of baseball came there and I participated in his event when he
was there. It was a good ballpark, but when I—at first when I was a kid it was all wood.
The outside of it was all wood and the CC Camp came into town and put it up in brick
and it’s all brick now. 3:02
Interviewer: “What is the CC Camp?”
From Fort McCoy.
Interviewer: “What id CC stand for?”
Conservation.
Interviewer: “Oh, the Conservation Corps, sure.”
The Conservation Corps. yeah.
Interviewer: “All right now, I want to start and I don’t want to jump too far into
the story because we got some time. Ok? What is your first recollection of going to
the ball park, how old were you and did you go just as a spectator, what was your
first recollection of going to the ball park?”
Well, my first recollection of going to the ballpark is when Horlick High School used to
play over there. Football and they use to have a semi-pro league called Metal Parts and
they played softball there and when they had the games, we use to sneak through the
wooden fence to go into the ballpark. 3:51 When I was about ten years old Elmer
Christiansen, who was the caretaker of the ballpark, and I became very good friends and
so when all of the ball teams would come in he’d let me know. “Mike” he said, “we got
ball teams coming tonight, how about coming and being a batboy”, so when I was ten
years old, I was a batboy already.
Interviewer: “Wow, now, your parents didn’t mind that you were going out there at
night?”
No. At that time, it was a lot different than it is now. You didn’t even have to lock your
doors at that time. This was in the forties right after the war you know. 4:36
Interviewer: “So, can you remember your first experience as a batboy?”
My first experience, as a batboy is when the Kansas City Monarchs came into town and
guess who was the pitcher? Satchel Paige. Satchel Paige came in there and I was the
batboy for the Kansas City Monarchs and they played the Racine Blues.
Interviewer: “Can you remember anything about the game?”
Not very much, but it was a good game.
Interviewer: “What were your duties as a batboy?”
2
�My duties as a batboy was to make sure that all the bats were in place. When the batter
got done hitting, I made sure I got the bat out of the way in case there was a play at home
plate and then I shagged balls for the guys and get their gloves, give them a towel, give
them a glass of water, the major things of being a batboy. 5:29
Interviewer: “Any other team before the women came to town, let’s put it that way,
what other teams were you the batboy for? What kinds of events were you the
batboy for?”
Just the semi-pro baseball teams that use to play there and then Metal Parts once and a
while. I would go over there and watch them play because that was my game, fast pitch,
and I only played a little baseball, but I played a lot of fast pitch. 6:00
Interviewer: “Did you have any advance notice about these women playing
baseball? How did that all come about for you?”
Well, only through the sports pages and Jim O’Brian, who was a good editor. Keith
Briim, who was the sports—him and Don Black, who was the personnel director at
Western Publishing Company, had the biggest involvement in getting the Racine Belles
there. They had to go to Chicago to meet with Wrigley to get them to come to Racine.
6:34
Interviewer: “So, when they first came to town, were you automatically the batboy?
How did that all come about?”
I asked Johnny Gottselig, who was the manager, if I could be the batboy because when
they came into town they stayed and they had usual practice before the season started and
I went over and talked to Johnny Gottselig, who was the manager, and asked him if I
could be the batboy because I had an assistant whose sister was on the ball team, Mary
Nesbitt, my assistant, Buddy who helped me when I was playing. 7:09
Interviewer: “How old were you when they came to town?”
Fourteen.
Interviewer: “So you were only fourteen years old?”
Yes, fourteen.
Interviewer: “Since you already knew the lay of the land, you had already been a
batboy there for a while, so it wasn’t that unusual for you to just walk up to the
manager and say, “I got experience here”, how did you sell him on the idea?”
Elmer helped a lot too and Leo Murphy who eventually became one of the managers of
the Belles was a catcher in one of the minor league teams I played in Racine and he was a
good friend of mine because I use to get his glove for him and all that and he helped me
out with Mr. Gottselig. 7:54
3
�Interviewer: “You came with a resume.”
I came with a resume.
Interviewer: “What I want to try to get here is, and maybe it didn’t exist, but
you’re doing the batboy for the men’s teams ok. Women didn’t ordinarily play
baseball like that. These were good players, you’re fourteen years old and you’ve
seen some good players, you saw Satchel Paige, can you remember your first game
with the women?”
Oh ya, oh ya, because Sophie, I think she stole four bases that day and Joanne Winter
pitched a one hitter and Mary Nesbitt came in the next day and pitched a no hitter. You
don’t forget things like that, you don’t. Too bad Joanne isn’t around any more, but Mary
Nesbitt is still alive and she lives in Florida and we keep in contact with her when we go
down to Florida. You take some of these girls like Maddy English, Edy Perlick, Claira
Schillace; they could have played in any men’s league. 8:55 Then we had a girl from
Racine who was a first baseman, Margie Danhauser, and I knew her very well.
Interviewer: “Were there any big differences between being a batboy for the men’s
team as opposed to the women’s team?”
The duties were practically the same. I made sure that everything was clear, bats were all
put in order and everything. The only thing different between the men and the women is
when the women had to slide they got burned and man they had to lift up that skirt and it
was different than the men, the men wore long pants and the outfits the girls wore were
delicate you know. 9:38
Interviewer: “Your job didn’t have anything to do with taking care of the
strawberries or any of that?”
No, no, that was Mrs. Anderson’s job, Mary Anderson.
Interviewer: “How about the behavior of the men compared to the behavior of the
women? Any differences there, when they come off, maybe they didn’t like the way
they hit the ball or they got struck out, let’s get an inside look here.”
The men were a little different; they throw the bats you know. If they miss the ball, if
they strike out they say damn it or they swear a little bit you know, but the women, they
took it in stride and it was a different ball game. We had pitchers in the men’s that really
threw BB’s, they were fast and they were good ball players and the women were good
too, but don’t forget your mound was only thirty-eight feet from home plate and when
they pitched they threw BB’s too and it was a different game, a different game between
the men and the women. 10:45
Interviewer: “How were the fans?”
The fans were great you know, but at first they didn’t come, who would want to come?
First we had Metal Parts, which was a good semi-pro men’s team and they took a lot of
4
�the fans away from the—but when the Belles started winning and then the fans came and
the fans would really pack that place on a Sunday afternoon double header was kind of
different because it was chilly sometimes and sometimes you couldn’t even see the game
because the foundry was right there and if we would get a southwest wind and they were
smelting iron, you could hardly see the ball players on the field, but it was a good thing.
11:32
Interviewer: “Now, you got a perspective of the game that even the players didn’t
get and the fans didn’t get. Were there any particular plays that you saw that—you
were experienced, you knew baseball already, you’d see how the pros—were there
any particular plays that you saw that you just went “WOW, that’s amazing, how’d
she do that?” Any particular—either throwing the ball or catching somebody out,
any of those kind of remarkable things?”
Well, you never had two better—ended appealing on a double play—English to Sophie,
to Margy Danhauser you know. The double play was the best play that the women made
and Edy Perlick had a wonderful arm in left field and Clara had a good arm in center
because she covered a lot of center field because Horlick field wasn’t small, it was a big
ball park because they used that for baseball and it was a long way out to that fence.
12:35 some of those girls could hit that ball, but one thing about the Racine Belles, they
had three good outfielders in Perlick, Clara Schillace and Eleanor Dapkus, they had three
good outfielders.
Interviewer: “What other teams did you see playing the Belles? They would have
other ones coming in?”
You would have the South Bend Blue Sox, you had the Kenosha Comets and you had the
Rockford Peaches and Reno Giocenti, who was an Umpire from Racine, when he would
work a game in Rockford, he would ask me if I would like to go along, so I would go to
Rockford and be the batboy for the Racine Belles in Rockford and also, the Kenosha
Comets you know. Sometimes I had to take the interurban to go to Kenosha because they
played their games at Lakefront Stadium, which is no longer there, but it was so close,
everything was so close. The only team I didn’t get to go to their ballpark was the South
Bend Blue Sox, but the Comets, the Rockford Peaches and the Belles were the three
parks I participated in. 13:40
Interviewer: “Now, you’re a young little fourteen year old with a bunch of cute girls
running around, did any of them think you were their favorite or something? Did
you have somebody that you thought maybe was your sweetheart even though she
was not your sweetheart?”
Not in that way, but we liked, you know Clara, she was a nice Italian girl you know and
Horlick field was in “little Italy” and when the Belles would play there, Racine Steel or
Belle city would have their freight cars—they would part them right over center field and
all the guys from the block would go sit on top of the boxcar and watch the game you
know and after the game they would all go see Clara. She was probably the most favored
5
�one of all the Racine Belles that played, but all of the girls were wonderful. Joanne
Winters, Sophie and then you had Choo Choo Hickson who was funny as hell. 14:43
Interviewer: “Why was she funny as hell?”
She was always clowning around a little bit. When they were all in Racine, they lived in
Racine, they all came to Ace Grille, which was a restaurant downtown and that where
you would always find all the girls and they had a pool room downstairs and a couple of
them would go down and shoot pool, but it was wonderful. They were all good girls.
Interviewer: “Now, every group has a clown and somebody who’s—tell us about a
few of the personalities if you will. From your perspective tell us about some
personalities.” 15:17
There wasn’t that much to tell about it frankly. They were all ladies and actually like in
the movie—in the movie that was Hollywood. You didn’t see occasions like Spaghetti
and them going out and dancing. These girls were well respected and they were invited
to the country clubs and they did a lot of community work and Johnson’s Wax took care
of them—made sure that they were well represented. Like I say, the movie was all
Hollywood and I wasn’t the batboy then. 16:01
Interviewer: “Any particular game or games that really stands out for you?
Something that you just went WOW.”
The championship game, the championship game between Rockford and the Belles. It
was like it was in the movie, but it didn’t happen that way you know.
Interviewer: “Tell us how it happened, start us off from the beginning and kind of
work us through the game.”
The game was well played and it ended up four to three and there was no home run like
they had in the movie with Geena Davis dropping the ball. It was a game and the score
was four to three. It was just a regular championship game played like champions and
like I say, any of them—any of those girls could have made any men’s team in the
country. They had arms and they were good arms too and I’ll tell you. 16:56
Interviewer: “Now you spent how long being the batboy for Racine?”
Just the Belles, just the one year 1943 because then I went—I became a freshman and I
started playing basketball, softball and all that. In fact, in 1944 I tried out –they had the
St. Louis Cardinals had a clinic at Horlick Field and I tried out and I went two weeks, I
was there for two weeks, but I just didn’t have it to make—to be a major leaguer you
know, but I loved the game and you can ask my wife—I played a lot of ball. Sometimes
I played—because I played a lot of fast pitch and we were the state champions for five
years in a row and we use to play sixty-five games a year and a lot of traveling. 17:51
Sometimes I would go away on the weekend and come home and go right to work, but I
love my wife, she really watched me.
6
�Interviewer: “this is going back a little way and maybe at the time you didn’t think
of it as much, but when did you find out that the league was actually ending? Do
you remember that at all?”
That was 1954 and just through the sports writing because I was already working and we
already had a couple of children and it was just too bad that they had to—but you could
see it dying a slow death because baseball was coming back now and guys like DiMaggio
and all them were all trying to hit the ball and you could see it was dying, but I was glad
it was Kalamazoo because we were there just a couple of years ago when they showed
the last game in 1954 when they ended the season. 18:56
Interviewer: “So, when you stopped being a batboy like you say, you were in school
and eventually to work, were you still a fan? Did you still go to the games?”
Oh yes, I would go to the women’s games.
Interviewer: “Let’s talk about that then. You were mentioning that things had
kind of died out, but let’s go back—now you’re in the stands and you’re watching as
a fan or did they still let you down there?”
No, I went as a fan. Elmer was still there and I would see him when I would go there and
his sister Edna was the general manager and she would let me in. I watched a lot of the
Belles play until I graduated from high school and then I kind of fell off a little bit, but I
ran into Irene Hickson and she was telling me, “how come you don’t join the
association?” I didn’t even know I could join because now I’m classified as league
personnel, so I signed a card and my wife and I have been going now since 1991 to the
reunion and it’s a great thing. 20:09 Recall the girls and see them all you know.
Interviewer: “They remember you?”
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: “I want to get back to when you started to see that things were
winding down. Was it that the crowds weren’t there or what was it?”
They only played in Racine until 1950. 1950 was the last year they played in Racine and
then, I think, the belles became the Grand Rapids Belles or or something, but they only
played until 1950 and you could see in 1948 and 1947 that they were dying down because
the crowds—metal Parts was in a pretty good league and they were there you know.
21:00
Interviewer: “Did you have any, I know this isn’t fair because it was a long, long
time ago, when you saw in the paper that the league was ending, did you have any
reactions or any thought that it was too bad or anything at all that you can
remember?”
It was a sad thing for the league to disband, but you have to remember that these girls did
something that nobody ever did. They brought back—you know guys were all over there
7
�in the army over in the war and when they came home they had something to go to. I
never had a chance to be in the army because I was too young and all that, but when these
girls would be there, these guys were really happy you know. “ Hey, that’s somewhere to
go, let’s go over to Horlick Field, a double header today”, but it was just too bad that the
league didn’t go over. Then the—then Milwaukee got a ball team, the Braves and they
had other things to occupy their time. Like I say, the league ended—the Racine Belles
disbanded in 1950. 22:05
Interviewer: “Now I’ve asked this question and we’ve all asked this question to
each one of the women, they played ball, they enjoyed ball and then afterwards
when it ended there was this sadness, but they kind of went on with their lives, but
at some point they kind of recognized that they did something special. Did that ever
happen to you? Was there a point in your life where you realized, not necessarily
you, but they had done something pretty amazing besides just playing good
baseball? Was there any point where you just kind of thought back that that was
kind of an amazing period of time? 22:38
Amazing because I was the first batboy for the Racine Belles and that’s what I tell people
that I was probably the only boy that was a batboy for the women’s teams when they
originated in 1943, but after I got out of high school, I did a lot. I was active in the
Democratic party, I was active in the unions, retirees groups and on Labor Day, bowling.
I had a—in fact now I even got a bowling league named after me, I’m in the Racine
Bowling Hall of Fame, and I was occupied as my wife will tell you. I was never home.
23:28
Interviewer: “At what point did you actually—either it was called to your attention
or you just thought about it, that you were part of something that was something
pretty amazing?”
Well, the only thing I can say is that I never got any pictures of me when I was the
batboy. Somebody’s got pictures of me in California, but we’ve never made contact with
the person, but other than that it was wonderful to be with the girls and they were great.
Interviewer: “Now, what was your reaction to hearing that they were going to be
put into the Baseball Hall of Fame?”
I was just wondering why they didn’t put the batboys in. You know, they put the girls in
because we were out there, but they were out there all the time you know. They played
all them games you know and they worked hard and they deserved to have some
recognition in the Hall of Fame. 24:28 We enjoyed it when we went to Cooperstown
when they had the reunion in Syracuse and we all went to Cooperstown. It was just too
bad that—they tried to get me into the Hall of Fame because I was a league personnel and
I was involved for sixty games that they played at home and I never missed a game. For
the championship game, when I was a batboy, I usde to wear a pair of jeans and a nice
white tee shirt, but for the championship game Don Black said, “Mike, you got to have a
uniform”, so they sent me to one of the men’s stores and I bought a nice pair of brown
8
�pants and a yellow shirt so I would look just like the Racine Belles on the day of the
championship game. 25:22 That was one of the biggest—because at that time you know
things were tough.
Interviewer: “I’ve asked the women, and I’m sure you have heard this one before,
what did you think of the movie?”
It was Hollywood. It was Hollywood the movie was Hollywood. It was nice to see
something done and they got some recognition from it and Penny Marshall did a very
good job on it, but some of the stuff they had in there the girls never did because like I
said, they were ladies. They never had drinking parties riding on a bus. Tom Hanks—
you wouldn’t see Johnny Gottselig come into the locker room and go to the bathroom.
That was just Hollywood. 26:16
Interviewer: “There were some scenes, for example when Davis walks into the
ballpark and then playing and all that, some of the girls have said that that was kind
of—at least it showed the overall story.”
The overall picture, but on the end there with the presentation at the Hall of Fame, when
Gina Davis walks in and sees her sister and some of the girls that are here now
participated in the movie and it was a good movie and we watch it every chance we can
and sometimes—we got a tape of it, and like I say, it was mostly all Hollywood. 27:00
The batboy and no crying in baseball.
Interviewer: “Now I’ll ask you a question I ask everyone of them as well, and as you
said, you did a lot after that. You can look back and certainly even now you got
bowling and you have a successful family and all that, but I want you to go inside
right now and being a batboy at that time, did that have any effect on the person
that you became, the person that you are now? 27:33 That experience of going to
the ballpark, seeing Satchel Paige, seeing these women do these things did that have
an effect on who you are today?”
No, no, no, because when I got involved at work my possibilities of being a president
were nothing at all, I had a family to support, I did my work, I worked every day, I never
missed a day of work, I loved my family, I loved my wife and I did a lot. I did a lot for
the city of Racine, I was a commissioner on a parks and recreation for twenty-four years,
I was labor person of the year, I was a delegate for the Democratic national convention in
1976 and 1980, I got into the oval office with Jimmy Carter, so what more can you
accomplish other than being a good husband, a good father and a great grandfather.
28:43
Interviewer: “thank you very much, that was a great interview.
9
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
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Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
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RHC-58_MCorona
Title
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Corona, Mike (Interview transcript and video), 2009
Creator
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Corona, Mike
Description
An account of the resource
Mike Corona was born in Racine, Wisconsin on November 9, 1928. He grew up in the Racine area playing baseball with his friends. At the age of ten, because of his friendship with the caretaker of the Horlick Athletic Field, he started playing as a batboy for men's semi-pro teams. When the All American Girls League came to Racine, he became a batboy working under Racine manager, Johnny Gottselig and his team. Corona worked as batboy only in 1943 and then went off to college and pursued other career endeavors.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Olson, Gordon (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Women
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-09-26
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5fc7576f3fb5e0a71ab05c0f3063f034.m4v
379449f22faeb4adf6c42ee5e20bfc5c
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e28077674b090e59d908f0d40babe7ff.pdf
9190ccb5a6f681870a51c9ca30bccb01
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
AUDREY HAINE DANIELS, Pitcher
Women in Baseball
Born: Winnipeg, Canada May 5, 1927
Resides:
Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 5, 2010, Detroit,
Michigan at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, November 16, 2010
Interviewer: “Audrey, let’s start with your full name and where and when were you
born?”
My maiden name is Audrey May Haine. I was born in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada on
May 5, 1927. No, May 9th, I told you I would make some mistakes, meant to say 5/9/27.
Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like?”
I suppose it was not much different than any of the others at that time. I had a very good
childhood, it was a—my father really wasn’t there most of the time and when he was he
just upset the whole thing, do you know what I mean? We had kind of a bumpy road
there for a while, but we got out and played. We played baseball around the street with
the other kids. 1:28
Interviewer: “Where did you grow up? Was it on land or in the city?”
It was in the city of Winnipeg.
Interviewer: “So, did you live in an apartment?”
We had a house.
Interviewer: “All right, and then you went to school, did you walk to school?”
Yes we walked to school; we weren’t too far from school.
Interviewer: “All right, how did you get involved with playing baseball?”
1
�With the kids in the street, I mean we always played baseball. We didn’t have to stop too
often to let cars go by because where I lived in those days there weren’t too many cars.
The doctor went by occasionally and we didn’t really have a good bat or a good balls.
Our balls were usually half ripped, but I don’t think it ever bothered us, we were out there
playing and had a great time.
Interviewer: “It was neighborhood kids? Did you ever play kids in other
neighborhoods? 2:30
No
Interviewer: “So it was just pretty much by yourselves. How was school for you?
Did you like school?”
Interviewer: Oh, I liked school very much.
Interviewer: “You got into high school I take it?”
Yes I did
Interviewer: “Did you have any idea what you wanted to do at that stage of your
life?”
I wanted to be a nurse.
Interviewer: “How did the opportunity to become a baseball player come along?”
I knew I had no opportunity to be a nurse for sure, and baseball was just something that I
grew up with. I didn’t just say, “I want to be a baseball player”, I just grew up with it and
I played for a team called the St. Anthony Brown Birds when I was fifteen or something
like that and I was a pretty good pitcher.
Interviewer: “Now, is this softball or baseball?”
2
�Softball, so I moved up to the next bracket and I played with them for a year and had a
very good year.
Interviewer: “Now, this is just for fun and you’re not getting paid or anything like
that?”
No, absolutely not, this is just teams that were put together and you had managers and
everything that went with it, uniforms. 3:48
Interviewer: “All girls?”
Yes, all girls
Interviewer: “When did you first hear about the professional league?”
Well, I got a call from a girl who played in the league the first year and her name was
Dotty Hunter, she called and she said that a scout had seen me play and wanted her to get
in touch with me and tell me all about the league and see if I would be interested.
Interviewer: “Had you heard about it before?”
No, I had never heard about the league before, so I invited Dotty over to my home and
she told us, my mother and myself and my sister probably, all about the league and that it
was run on very high standards and that the players lived in private homes with good
families and that we got paid for playing and when on the road we had real money and
stayed in the best hotels. So, that sounded pretty good to me 4:46
Interviewer: “What was your mother’s reaction?”
Well, she didn’t react, and she certainly didn’t say, “no, you’re not doing that”, no she
didn’t, she always let us have opportunities when they came up.
Interviewer: “How old were you at that time?”
Fifteen
3
�Interviewer: “So, they were offering you to play in the league at fifteen?”
I was fifteen when I got my contract and I turned sixteen that following summer and then
when I played and got to leave, I had just turned seventeen..
Interviewer: “What was your first experience? Did you go for tryouts?”
I never went to tryouts, and being young; I assumed I was on the team.
Interviewer: “Wow! Where did you go, to Peoria?” 5:46
First of all Dottie Hunter came and explained the whole thing to my mother and me
finally said I could go. I had never been more than one hundred miles from home or
ordered or eaten a meal out, so I was just about as green as the grass we were going to
play on, you know. I had never had any experience being away, so it was a pretty
exciting and nerve-wracking experience for me to join the other players from western
Canada and get on the train in Winnipeg and head for Chicago. 6:48
Interviewer: “You had never been on a train before?”
No, I hadn’t
Interviewer: “How was the trip?”
Well, it was nerve-wracking for me you know, you want to do the right thing and
everything is new to you and I don’t think I slept much that first night on that train and
the first sun-up I looked out and saw the wonderful rolling hills of Wisconsin go by and it
is a memory etched in my mind forever, those wonderful rolling hills and green grass.
Everything I did-- I was a little bit nervous about everything and when we had breakfast
on the train I just didn’t even know what to order because I had never been out. Seeing
the waiter with this white towel over one arm and a silver coffee pot in the other had, I
4
�was just baffled by it all. 8:05 It was just over whelming to me, but we headed out and I
guess most of the girls going were in the same position as I was.
Interviewer: “Had you met some of them at that point and you were talking?”
Oh yeah, I had met some of them and there might have been one from the team that I was
on going as well, but we headed up to Chicago and we were met there and they put us in
a hotel.
Interviewer: “Did you meet the chaperone? Did you have a chaperone that met
you?” 8:40
No, personnel from the league met us because at that time we weren’t assigned a
chaperone. You were assigned a chaperone when you were on a team. So, we arrived
and they put us up in a hotel and I think it was on the seventeenth floor. Alright now,
wow!
Interviewer: “Did you have a room mate in your hotel room?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Also from Canada?”
Yes, I think it was the player I had played with before. Then of course there was the
spring training the first day out there.
Interviewer: “What was that like coming out?”
It was—I was really nervous and self-conscious because I didn’t have all those clothes
and mind you there were others in the same bracket that I was, but I didn’t have the
clothes that they had. I remember on a hot day I had this pleated woolen skirt on and I
was just about melting, but you met these girls and they were from all over the U.S. and
Canada and you realized that they were in much the same spot at I was. 9:59 Spring
5
�training went well and much like in the movie, they put up a list of who made what and
where. I was assigned to the “Minneapolis Millerettes” and it was a new team in the
league that year. Unfortunately the game did not go over well there because the field
where we played was too large for the type of game we played and it was just something
they weren’t ready for, so during the season, I guess halfway through the season, that
whole team went to Fort Wayne, Indiana where it was very successful. 10:44 I played
for Fort Wayne and our manager was Bill Wambsganns, who made the only unassisted
triple play in the world series in 1920, I believe, and he was great. So, I played for Fort
Wayne for two years I guess,
Interviewer: “What was your—going back to your first team, you actually played
for half the season though?”
Yes I did, we played half the season and the other half we were a road team. We were
called the “orphans”.
Interviewer: “Did your nervousness start to go away once you started playing?”
Yes I think it did a little bit, but I was always tense you know, you don’t get over that in a
week or two. 11:35
Interviewer: “Plus you were very young.”
Exactly, I had just turned seventeen.
Interviewer: “How did you rate yourself compared to the other players? Did you
feel like you were a good baseball player?”
Well, I always felt like I was never as good as the others, but I was a good pitcher, yes I
was
Interviewer: “Is that what you trained to be, a pitcher?”
6
�Yes
Interviewer: “Did you play any other position?”
Never
Interviewer: “Same with me, I couldn’t play any other positions and that’s why
they gave me pitching.”
That’s probably the way it was with me. I couldn’t have made out it any other position.
Interviewer: “The first manager you had, did you learn very much from him? One
of the things I have asked the girls is that they knew how to play baseball, but the
managers gave them new tricks and techniques they didn’t know about.”
My first manager was—I can’t remember his name, but I don’t think he really taught the
girls too much. We were all so basically green that it was a big job to—but we gradually
got pretty darn good. 12:49
Interviewer: “Were you thinking at that stage the this was going to be your career,
that you were going to be a professional baseball player?”
No, absolutely not, no
Interviewer: “This is going to sound like a stupid question, but what was the point,
why did you do it then?”
Because it was fun and I got paid for it, I mean, it was something I loved to do and I got
paid for it quite well and I was able to send money home to my mother. If you’re a ball
player and you’re on a team and you’re doing ok, you’re not leaving it.
Interviewer: “So, what was the fort Wayne experience like?” 13:29
It was lovely, we had a lot of Canadians on that team and I played with them for about
two years and Bill Wambsganns was a terrific guy.
7
�Interviewer: “Did he treat you like a woman or treat you like a ball player?”
Oh, I think he treated us like a ball player with consideration. We had chaperones of
course, who really took over that part of the job.
Interviewer: “You didn’t have to go through the charm school or any of that?”
I did, don’t you know?
Interviewer: “Well, let’s talk about that. You were a green seventeen year old.”
I thought maybe you would recognize that I had been to charm school. Yes, we learned
how to pour teas, how to sit properly, stand properly, how to walk with a book on your
head straight and tall, and we learned all those essential things. I think they only had the
charm school for one year as I recall, but we were all so bright we picked everything up
in one year. 14:45
Interviewer: “What was a typical day like during the season, you got up at a
certain time?”
Yup, got up and if we were home, probably had a practice scheduled and of course the
afternoon or evening baseball game and we had to be in the home or in our rooms when
we were on the road, two hours after the game. On the road we did—we went to a movie
or just walked around the city or things like that.
Interviewer: “Well, this is a new experience for you and you’re completely outside
of the home, what were you thinking?
You make friends and there were a lot of Canadians on that team, so we felt a bond you
know, so we sort of strengthened each other. 15:46
Interviewer: “there were older girls there too?”
8
�They were mostly older than I was, but they were maybe eighteen, nineteen and even
twenty.
Interviewer: “What was your social life like during the Fort Wayne period?”
Well, very often we were invited out to dinner by some of the families, they were really
very good to us and I think that was probably our only social events that we got to go to,
otherwise we were pretty well secluded from—I mean it was practice in the afternoon,
game at night, so you didn’t have too much time to get into trouble, but we tried hard.
Interviewer: “What were the road trips like?”
The road trips were a lot of fun, but also very tiring, we played every day and double
headers on Sundays and got up and got on that—at first each team didn’t have a bus, so
that first year we traveled by train and after that each team got their own bus. We spent
the time by doing crossword puzzles, reading a book and singing the songs of , popular
songs of those days. 17:04
Interviewer: “Any particular memorable games during the Fort Wayne
experience?”
Fort Wayne? No, I don’t think so or maybe that was the year—that might have been the
year I pitched a no hitter. We were playing against Kenosha, it was a very drizzly day,
kind of foggy, and I was pitching against Helen Fox, who was also a Canadian girl and
very good, and we both pitched a no hitter because of course, the fog and the mist, I mean
we were just great.
Interviewer: “Once the season was over with you went back to Canada, you went
back home?”
9
�Yes I did, went back to Winnipeg and back to my job. They always took me—I worked
for the Hudson Bay Company and they always just took me back and I left in the spring
and came back in the fall. 17:57
Interviewer: “They knew you were a ball player?”
Yes, of course
Interviewer: “Were you kind of a local celebrity?”
Well I was kind of because I had done so well and my picture was in the paper practically
after every game. I must sound like I’m kind of—but anyway it was because I had made
the record in strikeouts and stuff like that. Yeah, people treated you very good.
Interviewer: “So, Fort Wayne you did for two years and then what happened after
that?”
I was traded to Grand Rapids, to the Grand Rapids Chicks. I think I played with them a
year and a half and then I went to—Grand Rapids Chicks, I can’t remember where after
the Chicks.
Interviewer: “We’ll go there later. How was your experience with the Grand
Rapids Chicks?”
Great, all the experiences were great. You know, we were all young, we were just
looking for new friends and we did find them and you would always stay with a few
Canadians because you were Canadian. I always had about four or five Canadians that
went to have lunch together or whatever. The Californians probably stuck together and
that’s the way it went. 19:23
Interviewer: “Any memorable games when you were with the Chicks?”
10
�No, I had some very good games, but none of them stand out except that no- hitter that I
pitched. I did pitch another no hitter during my days.
Interviewer: “How were the teams that you played against?”
Oh, they were very good, we had some absolutely marvelous players, and they were just
outstanding you know. When we first started playing, people came out to laugh—“oh my
gosh, girl baseball players”, but we showed them that we could play just as well as men
and gradually then the game did change into the regular baseball. 20:18
Interviewer: “So, you started out pitching underhand?”
Yes, and then side arm and then overhand.
Interviewer: “How was that transition for you?”
It went pretty well. When they transferred from the regular, from the size of baseball that
we were using to the regular hardball size, they sent us baseballs for us to work on before
we got to the spring training and Doris Barr, who lived on the same street as I did, just
per chance, she knew someone who allowed us to practice in the armory where we had a
lot of space and that’s what we did. 21:08
Interviewer: “So by the time you got to spring training, you already had been
practicing throwing overhand?”
Right
Interviewer: “Was that a difficult transition for you though?”
Not really, I don’t recall it as being, if I had to pitch overhand I would have found that
difficult.
11
�Interviewer: “Did your record change? You were pitching very well in the
beginning with the larger ball, but was there any difference in terms of your
record?”
I can’t tell you that, I just really—it’s not a secret or anything, I just don’t remember.
Interviewer: “Nobody complained anyway and said you were a lousy pitcher now?”
No, they didn’t fire me or anything. 21:52
Interviewer: “What did you think of the uniform?”
It didn’t matter what kind of uniform they would have given us, we would have put it on.
We were playing baseball and we were so thrilled to be there, but there was a lot of
laughing etc. of the uniforms, especially by fans in the first year, but I think most of us
liked to play in that. I cannot speak for all of them and I know that some didn’t.
Interviewer: “I guess what I’m trying to get at is, I know a lot of them did
adjustments. One of you said that when she first started wearing it and when she
went out to catch a ball she got most of her hands in her dress as opposed to getting
the ball. Did you alter your uniform at all?”
I altered mine because coming through on the pitch. I had to pin a large portion of the
dress onto the front so it wouldn’t go into that material. 22:52
Interviewer: “If you were on the bus and you needed to get off the bus could you
wear blue jeans?”
No, no, you had to have a dress or skirt on and no, we were never allowed to get off at
stops, so we followed the rules.
Interviewer: “The playing field it’s self changed, the distance and whatnot. How
did you adjust to that?”
12
�Yes it did and yes, Philip Wrigley wanted the game to be faster and more like baseball, so
the pitchers mound was lengthened and the base paths were lengthened and now we were
pitching either side arm, I believe started side arm, and then side arm and overhand, so
those were the changes that were made and you could of course in regular softball you
can’t lead off now, so we could do everything that the major leagues could do. 24:03
Interviewer: “Then you were traded again?”
Yes, then I was traded to oh, gosh, the Peoria Red Wings.
Interviewer: “How was that experience?”
Very nice and I liked that team very much. We had a very good team.
Interviewer: “Any favorites of the three?”
I think Fort Wayne, I think because of all the Canadians on that team.
Interviewer: “Any particular hitter that you did not want to go up against?”
I know there were some that didn’t want to go up against me because I was wild at times.
Of course there were hitters that I didn’t want to pitch against. I mean they were good
hitters. 24:58
Interviewer: “By the time you got through several years now, were you looking at
this as something that was a lot of fun and not something you were going to do for
the rest of your life?”
Oh no, no, no
Interviewer: “What did you want to do?”
I wanted to get married and I had been going with my husband, previously my boyfriend,
for six years or so, so we eventually got married.
13
�Interviewer: “I guess that’s one of the questions that I have. How did you meet
him?”
Oh, we lived on the same block and on the same street.
Interviewer: “Oh, from childhood?”
Yeah, we never dated anyone else and now we have been married for sixty-one years.
Interviewer: “Wow! I didn’t know that.”
We’re going to stick with it. 26:02
Interviewer: “You’re finally sure of each other.”
Yeah, the trial’s over.
Interviewer: “Alright, so you knew him from childhood and you went off to play,
you came back and he was?”
He was there waiting. Actually we generally played catch most of the time. Walking
down the street, he’d go backwards and I’m be going forward pitching to him, but that’s
what we did.”
Interviewer: “Did he come to any of your games?”
I think he was able to get to—let’s see, one of the seasons, where was I at that time? He
came down to see me play.
Interviewer: “I understand he has a special picture he carries around with him?”
He does
Interviewer: “What is that picture?”
It’s of me in my uniform and he’s carried it around for all the years we’ve known—when
we got the picture it was probably in the third year or something of my ball days and yes,
14
�he still has it. 27:12 He’s very proud of it and I’m proud of the picture and proud of
him, maybe proud of him and then proud of the picture.
Interviewer: “What brought your baseball career to an end?”
Getting married, what could you do? I mean, yes we got married and I did play for a year
after that, yes.
Interviewer: “Then what, you got married and had a child as well, but did you go to
work of any kind? Were you still working?”
No, and then we were living in the states, we had moved from Canada and I played home
games for the Rockford Peaches.
Interviewer: “But then, you made a decision not to play anymore? The league still
went on didn’t it?” 28:11
Well, I made the decision because we had family and then another family and you know,
we added on and it was impossible for me to play, but I think family like probably just
became more important.
Interviewer: “Did you miss it?”
I think I probably did, no doubt about that.
Interviewer: “Some of the girls never even talked about their baseball career and
their kids didn’t even know about it. How about you?”
Same thing, because people made fun of you, like you told them you played and you
played men’s rules and they go and say,”yeah”, you know, “yeah, right”, so you felt
embarrassed, so there came a time when you didn’t tell anybody. 29:02
Interviewer: “How did that change because you came to a certain point in your
life—you’re coming to reunions for example?”
15
�Absolutely
Interviewer: “Was it the movie that changed things?”
I think so and I think the movie helped a great deal, right.
Interviewer: “How did you hear about the movie to begin with?”
We had meetings and talked about this movie and that there was a possibility because of
the Players Association, we have a Players Association, and all news gets into the
newsletter and people have a chance to study it and that’s how it came about.
Interviewer: “Now, the association formally began in? I forgot what year it was, do
you remember?”
I do not.
Interviewer: “Were you one of the first members?”
Oh yeah, I was one of the first, I mean in that group.
Interviewer: “Right, we talked with someone who actually put together the original
database and contacted all of you and said, “we’re forming this association”. 30:05
After all those that have gone by and not talking about it, why did you want to get
involved with an association of ex ball players?”
Of course you’re—it’s in you and of course you’ve met all these young women and
everything. The girls you played with, I mean they were all important to us and they
were like family to us. After all we lived with them all summer and played ball and kept
in touch with them and Christmas cards and they were and still are a very, very important
part of our life.
Interviewer: “What did you think of the movie?
16
�Well, I think we liked the movie because we saw that it was pretty well accurate and we
were happy with Madonna’s part in it. I mean, it wasn’t what Madonna was popular for
at that time, so we were happy with the movie. 31:13 I think we all really liked it, I did
anyway.
Interviewer: “Did it change your attitude about talking about the baseball
period?”
Yeah, it did, definitely, oh definitely because now people saw it and they were able to see
that it was pretty good and these girls could really play.
Interviewer: “In terms of reaction, people actually treat you almost like movie stars
because of that movie.”
Yes they do.
Interviewer: “It rubs off on me, I told my students--I’m a professor at the
university, and I tell my students that I’m doing this documentary and they’re
excited because I get a chance to meet you.”
It’s amazing you know, we can’t understand it, but now we’re used to it because it’s been
going on year after year and they come and, “oh my gosh, can I have your autograph?”
Come on. 32:15
Interviewer: “You seem amused by it.”
I am amused by it you know, by the way they are just lined up with a hat to sign or a
baseball glove or a card or whatever.
Interviewer: “Why do you think people react that way?”
Well, I think it was something different that turned out ok. It was pleasing to watch, it
was on the up and up.
17
�Interviewer: “Now, you had a full life, you’ve had a family and you’ve had a lot of
other experiences, and how does that few years, how does that fit into the scheme of
things in your life? You obviously loved it.”
You’re asking me to compare that?
Interviewer: “Yes, somewhat.”
My baseball life with my family life?” 33:08
Interviewer: “Well, I’m not asking you for a comparison, if you prefer this or
prefer that, just where does it fit in terms of—some of the girls said, for example, it
was their first experience of really becoming a woman and having a more broad
understanding of life as opposed to being in a small town. Was it a like changing
experience for you at all?”
It taught me a lot. It taught me to be considerate, it taught me quite a few things you
know.
Interviewer: “At the very least you know how to pour tea, right?”
Listen, I was one of them that learned how to pour tea and if you ever need someone to
pour tea at some of your social events.
Interviewer: “I’m going to ask you about putting a book on your head and see if
you can still do that or not.”
I honestly—yes, we learned all that and I thought you would notice it. 34:12
Interviewer: “Looking back on it now you said you’re amused by how so many
people just get so excited about all this kind of thing and I had asked you why you
think people are so excited about it and you said because it was something unique
and it’s got to be more than that. It’s—young girls especially look up to you.”
18
�Yes they do, they really do. I mean, even now if we go out to eat or if somebody knows
that I played in the league, they are just all mushy. We get better service, we give them a
card and it just fixes everything up.
Interviewer: “I want to ask you a more philosophical question, it may be a tough
one. Looking back on that experience at that time, what do you think the All
American Girls Baseball League accomplished? What do you think they—I mean
they were a baseball team, there are lots of baseball teams.” 35:15
No, we accomplished more than playing baseball, we showed that we were as equal as
boys. Coming into sports and giving the women’s sports the same consideration that
you’re giving the boys and we did you know, chapter nine [Title IX] was passed for equal
opportunity in sports and I think we accomplished a great deal and we’re proud of what
we did, we’re very proud of it. If you’ve been through—I’m sure you’ve been through
and seen the girls and that and yes, we’re proud of what we did.
Interviewer: “Let me ask you a real stupid question. Why do you come to the
reunions?”
Because I love all of my friends and it’s so exciting. You come to see your friends,
absolutely; because they’re like more than just friends and some of them you probably
think are your family you know. Yes, that’s why we all come and I’m sure that you
might get a similar answer from many. 36:27
Interviewer: “One of the things about reunions that I’ve learned, because I got to
reunions of my fathers, for example, because of his military history. You get to
know people that you didn’t get to know when you were playing ball. Did you meet
some of the players that you never knew?”
19
�Yes, absolutely, that’s true—that you never got to meet. You played against them, but
then you were a player and they were a player and you just hoped you got the batter of
them, but other than that, you come for your love of the game and love of the people you
played with.
Interviewer: “Did you have any involvement in the production of the film like some
of the women did?” 37:16
I happened to be an extra. I did get into the movie as an extra and it was great and I got
paid.
Interviewer: “What scene were you in?”
Ah, well when they were talking about the Canadians there was a scene there and they
were singing a song about the Canadians and there were about three or four Canadians
and they had us standing at the back and we were Canadians, Irish ones and Swedes, so
there were a few Canadians in that. Then I was in another spot too, but you know, you
have to be quick to see that.
Interviewer: “Were you in Cooperstown film at all?”
Yes and that’s in Cooperstown and that’s in the scene where we’re being inducted into
the Hall of Fame. 38:18
Interviewer: “Now, did you go to the induction?”
Absolutely
Interviewer: “What was that like?”
Incredible, incredible, I mean it’s all incredible you know, something that other people
have never done. I’m sure other people have done more important things, but this was
special.
20
�Interviewer: “What was your reaction to the whole league being inducted into the
Hall of Fame?”
It’s fabulous, I mean we all figured we had it coming and we deserved it so to speak. We
played hard and a lot of people enjoyed our games and why not? 39:05
Interviewer: “My favorite scene in the whole movie, and I actually use it in my
classes, is the scene between Tom Hanks and Geena Davis where he says—“she said
it got too hard.”
Yes, that’s one of my favorites.
Interviewer: “That brings tears to my eyes whenever I watch that.”
It’s hard yes, something like everything is hard you know. Yes, that’s one of my favorite
spots.
Interviewer: “He says, “of course it’s hard, if it was easy everybody could do it”,
and obviously they couldn’t because only you guys could do it.”
Right
Interviewer: “Which is great. Well good, I’ve enjoyed myself and I hope you have
survived through this.”
Yeah, well I did my best.
Interviewer: “Thank you so much.”
21
�22
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
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All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-58_ADaniels
Title
A name given to the resource
Daniels, Audrey (Interview transcript and video), 2010
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Dearfield, Norma
Description
An account of the resource
Audrey Daniels was born in Winnipeg, Manitoba, in 1927. She grew up playing ball with the boys in the neighborhood, and then joined a girls' team when she was fifteen. She was later spotted by Dotty Hunter, who had played in the All American league's first season and encouraged her to try out. She joined the league in 1944, and was assigned initially to the Minneapolis Millerettes, who then moved to Fort Wayne, and she later played for Grand Rapids, South Bend and Rockford. She was a successful pitcher who threw several no-hitters over the course of her career.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Women
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-08-07
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4
-
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c5b6c020c55bc76f9c0961283bbd2dcf.mp4
82a3387a6491c93b57b3692ed2d69462
https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/eb05af25d56f4d5b7cad1aab799a3731.pdf
41f571904a625f2aa8ad601621ddcffb
PDF Text
Text
ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
BUD DANIELS REGARDING AUDREY HAINE DANIELS
Women in Baseball
Born:
Resides:
Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, August 5, 2010, Detroit,
MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, May 12, 2011
Interviewer: “Lets begin with your full name and where and when were you born?”
My first name is Austin, but I’m Bud, Bud Daniels and I was born in Winnipeg like
Audrey—grew up there. I spent the whole early part of my life in Winnipeg, even up
through the time and all the years that Audrey was playing baseball. You asked
interesting questions about how she got—she’s extremely modest, extremely so
because—we lived on the same street and in the same block. She lived at 729 College
and I lived at 628, but as kids, we just grew up together and sports were a common
interest. I played hockey and she played baseball, so we had a lot of—sports was our
common ground. 30:26 She first started out playing with the St. Anthony Brown Birds
and it was her first organized baseball and I saw her from starting there and, of course,
she went to the St. Fidel Tigerettes. She was in the senior women’s league in Winnipeg
at sixteen and she was playing with these women that were probably in their mid
twenties. They were the prime seniors fast pitch softball players in Winnipeg, but she
was just sixteen when she tried out with the St. Fidel Tigerettes in 1943. 31:03 She
wound up pitching for the Tigerettes and they won the seniors women’s championship
that year. Now, they played seven inning games, double headers twice a week, I think,
these seven inning double headers. She said she had her picture in the paper a lot and she
did and there are many games where she had nineteen, twenty or twenty-one strike outs
1
�in a seven inning game, which was just incredible, and that’s how she got picked up by
the league. In the year they won the championship, 1943, was the best of seven
championships and she pitched all seven games and won four and lost three and they
were all extremely close games. But, it was from that year she had with The St. Fidel
Tigerettes, which was the senior women’s fast pitch league that the scouts saw her. It
wasn’t just that she knew Dolly Hunter, the scouts had actually seen her pitch and that’s
really how she got rolling into the pros. 32:16
Interviewer: “This is probably a tough question, but when did it turn from
neighbor, friend to “I think I want to marry that woman”?”
Gosh, it was a slow process because it started out that I would never miss one of her
games in 1942 when she played with the Brown Birds, then 1943 before she went away,
but we still we were a pair through 1944, I mean I didn’t date any other girls, I wasn’t
interested, but we were just generally interested in each other and grew that way, grew
that way. 33:02 I never got to see then play until 1948, I never saw her play. I man, I
couldn’t afford—I was in the engineering business in Winnipeg, I was serving in an
apprenticeship, so I couldn’t get away, but that last year, we were getting married in
November of 1948, and July of 1948 I went down to see them play and I was aghast at
the baseball. I remember her—all the great games she had as a softball pitcher, this
wasn’t softball, this was hardball let me tell you, and they really played—I couldn’t
believe the level. I use to go to see the northern league hardball, as we called it, northern
league baseball up there, professional ball, and those women played every bit as good as
those northern league players. I was amazed at how good they were. It was really an
awakening to me because I followed the papers and I would send the clips of different
2
�games, but it’s not like being there and seeing it. 34:09 When you see it you really have
to believe it. I just saw some outstanding plays and what not. We also had a very good
friend, a lifetime friend that we had—she played in the league and Audrey referred to her
not by that, but it was Dottie Key, Dottie Ferguson, and they stood up for us when we got
married, we stood up for them and you were talking about—did you have any batter that
was, you know, but she didn’t say anything about Dottie, but Dottie, she was her very
best friend, our best friend. When Audrey pitched for Peoria against Rockford, Dottie
was one—she would make Audrey pitch to her and she would lean way over the plate
purposely to get hit because she was one of the top base stealers in the league. 35:02 So,
that’s how—she would purposely tell us that she was going to get on base. Audrey was
her best friend, but she would lean way over the plate to get hit, because she couldn’t get
a hit on her, but she would get hit and she’d get on base and once she got on there was a
pretty good chance she was going to steal it. 1948 was the first year I saw them play and
it was just an incredible experience. I guess I’m one of the few that’s still around that
actually saw these women play, but they were outstanding.
Interviewer: “When did you start carrying the picture in the wallet? When did
that start?”
Actually I got that and I started carrying that the year we got married. 1948, the summer
of 1948, when I was down there, and this was a team picture, just of herself, they took
individual pictures of the players and I have this picture of her and this picture has been
in my wallet for sixty-two years, and that’s the condition of it. 36:30 Every day for
sixty-two years, that’s the picture. That’s gone through about eight or ten wallets, but I
think just the quality of that picture from 1948 is outstanding.
3
�Interviewer: “Beautiful, at the last reunion you were off by yourself and we just got
talking and that’s when you pulled that out and I said I had to get you on camera
with that picture and now we’ve got it, which is great, which is great. Let me ask
you the same question I asked Audrey. What do you make of all this “whoop la la”
about all of this?” 37:18
Well you know, when you went back earlier they didn’t talk about it. Our kids never
knew anything about it, never talked about it and it was just like it never even existed.
But, in 1982 when they had their first reunion in Chicago that opened the whole thing
wide open. From there on, each reunion, there became more interest in this talk about the
book or the movie or something else and it’s absolutely taken off. Now, today, I’ll bet
you when we get home there are going to be at least four or five pieces of mail requesting
autographs. There is not a week that goes by that she doesn’t get mail-requesting
autographs, information about somebody who’s doing an essay for school, it’s endless.
38:17 I said it’s hard to believe, I know a couple of months ago I mailed twenty-one
pieces of mail and I said, “How can this be after all these years?” But, that’s what
happens—the media—through the movie, there’s not—I haven’t run across anybody who
hasn’t seen this movie. Like I said, we go to a restaurant or something—we know
different ones that know her and they come and see her and talk about it and then they
bring other waitresses over to meet this woman, it just goes on and on and it’s wonderful.
39:06 I said to Audrey many times, I said, “when you have the opportunity to talk to
somebody you should tell them about this, don’t keep it a secret. You’re not bragging or
anything, you’re sharing a wonderful moment”. I said, “that’s what you have to do, you
have to allow other people access to all this”, so she does now and it’s wonderful. I said,
4
�“share it, share it, don’t take it with you, share it and let as many people as possible enjoy
it”.
Interviewer: “That’s wonderful and thank you so much.”
5
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-02
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
RHC-58_BDaniels
Title
A name given to the resource
Daniels, Bud (Interview transcript and video), 2010
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Daniels, Bud
Description
An account of the resource
Bud Daniels grew up in Winnipeg, Manitoba, just down the street from his future wife, Audrey Haine. Both were active in sports, and when Audrey played organized softball while they were teenagers, he would attend every game. They stayed in touch after she was recruited into the AAGPBL, and married in 1948. During this time Audrey would play for the Minneapolis Millerettes, Fort Wayne Daisies, Grand Rapids Chicks, Peoria Redwings, and Rockford Peaches. In addition to telling his side of their story, he discusses both the quality of play he saw, and the popularity of the league and their players over the past twenty years.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-08-05
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4