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Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Joyce Hill Westerman
Length of Interview: (54:24)
Date of Interview: August 7, 2010 at the Reunion of the Professional Girls Baseball League
Interviewed by: James Smither
Transcribed by: Lindsey Thatcher, November 9, 2010
Interviewer: “The date is August 7, 2010. We are at Detroit Michigan at the reunion of the
All American Girls Professional Baseball League. We are talking today with Joyce Hill
Westerman and the interviewer is James Smither of Grand Valley State’s Veterans History
Project. Now Joyce, can you start with a little bit of background about yourself? Let’s
begin with where and when were you born?”
(00:51)
I was born in on December 29, 1925. I might add that I lived through the depression. I mean, to
me it wasn’t a big deal but to my parents it was a big deal. My father lost himself in the
depression so I was in 6th grade, no 1st grade in the city, I was 6 years old and I went one year to
school there and then we moved out of the county. My uncle had rented some land and there was
an old house on this land and half of it was falling down and we lived in 4 rooms and I had 4
sisters and or 3 sisters and 4 brothers and my mom and dad and we lived in that little house that
was not much. We did not have any running water, we did not have any electricity, and we had a
potbelly stove to heat the house. We had to carry the water in from the water tank and also to
take a shower we had to heat the water over the fire and stuff like that. Well I was a little bit of a
tom boy and I played a little ball in Kenosha in school (02:00) and I used to be embarrassed at
first to go up and hit because I hit better than most of the kids. And I started playing ball when I
was about 5___ pounds so I played next door, but when we moved in to the county it was a
whole different story. So I played mostly with all my brothers and sisters and stuff, and it was
really a good thing for my parents because for us kids we loved it. We were out in the county and
we could run, we had a big garden and I think that’s how we survived really, on the garden and
so forth. Then as I grew up we went to a one room school with one teacher, actually the teacher
taught my mother, she graduated from that school and I graduated from that school with the
same teacher, from 8th grade from that school. So that in itself was an experience. I had played a
lot of ball in school and stuff but then as I grew up and I graduated from my school when I was
17, and you couldn’t get a job until you were 18, now they didn’t have any (03:00) competitive
sports to speak of in high school and junior high school but I did manage to go into the city and
visit my aunt one night a week so I could play sports at the junior high school. Well then, after
high school of course I finally, by the time I was 18 I got a job at the American Motors, they
were making airplanes. Well we did have kind of a scrub team from the national holders (?). And
that was the extent of pretty much of my baseball experience except with playing with my
brothers and sisters in school and stuff like that. So anyway then in 1944 that was the first time
that I got to see the Comets who were one of the regular teams of the league. And it was really
�funny because they had a bunch of injuries on the team and they had called somebody. Who? I
don’t know. But anyway they picked two girls from Kenosha to try to fill in. (04:00) Well
luckily I was one of them and got to start with Hugh Rights a friend of mine who was a ball
player. Well I got a uniform and everything for that series and all I did was get up and pitch
some runs and I fouled the ball and I could…I thought oh my heavens it’s girl’s baseball. What a
dream this would be? You know, always wanting to play professional ball and you know being a
Cub fan it was the big thing you know, so anyway it was really funny because living on the farm
and so forth by that time we had moved on to my grandmother’s farm and lived upstairs by the
time I was in junior high school so we had all the conveniences then but my Dad still didn’t have
the money where I could run back and forth from Kenosha to play ball and stuff like that. So
anyway I tried out and like I said I got up a hit and fouled the ball and that was wonderful
because they were so (05:00) fast that I couldn’t see the ball anyway in my estimation. And I
tried out, they had try outs that fall in Kenosha and it was about 50 girls so I tried out there and I
made the try outs and then the following week they had try outs where they were seeing and
some of the girls went there and it was another I think another 50 girls there and I tried out there
and there were only 2 of us girls out of all those kids that made the cut to go spring training. Like
I said I was working at American Motors or National Motors at that time, I was making a dollar
an hour and so forth and you know after that I went to spring training, and then I found out that I
made the cut and I would be going to Grand Rapids. Well I signed a contract like $55 a week.
Well my dad was making $40 in the plant you know at that time and I thought “Oh wow, I’m
going to be making more than my dad,” and you know they weren’t sports people. (06:00) But
my mother, they didn’t say I couldn’t play or anything and it wasn’t you know something like
that but I think they knew how much I loved baseball you know, so anyway it was a little scary
for me in spring training because I had to take the train heck I had never been out of Kenosha
hardly you know, so I got on that train and got to Chicago. I made it through someway I don’t
remember how, but I got there. And like I said, I made the cut. My first year I went to Grand
Rapids and it was really cool, I had a lot to learn. Not having, I mean I had the ability but I didn’t
have the experience I had a lot to learn and of course when I went to Grand Rapids Mickey
Maguire was the captain at the time, and I was the catcher at that time and I didn’t get played too
often but I learned a lot from her. She was a competitive let me tell you, she was but that was a
really wonderful experience to be behind her. And I did, one time I was catching (07:00) and I
did catch my finger. The first knuckle was lying on the back of the second knuckle and doctor
came down and pulled it back into place you know and stuff like that. Anyway from then, I went
to went to South Bend the following year and then I went on and played for 8 total years so, it
was a wonderful experience. You meet so many wonderful gals you know that you get very
close.
(07:32)
Interviewer: “Ok, that’s a really good overview or starting point here. Now I’m going to
back us up a little bit.”
Ok.
Interviewer: “And have you fill in a few more pieces of this process. Why don’t you, the
other thing I’m not quite getting out of your stories, where did you go to high school?”
�Oh, I went to a Kenosha high school in Kenosha.
Interviewer: “So you were able to go into Kenosha at least at that point?”
Yeah, yeah. Actually we had to get up early in the morning and ride in when my dad went to
work (08:00). Way before any other school started, and we stayed about oh half a mile or so
from it and he would take us into high school as well. We would get up and in the morning go in
with my Dad in the morning and stay up at my aunt’s until it was time to go to school, and then
walk to school.
Interviewer: “Ok, and the school, did they have were there any kind of sports there, or gym
class or anything like that?”
The school wasn’t didn’t have anything.
Interviewer: “Nothing at all.”
No, like I said junior high school had gym once a week, I mean we had gym but nothing after
school.
Interviewer: “Ok. And the Comets were a pioneer team and they would’ve been in
Kenosha in 1943.”
Yes.
Interviewer: “Did you go watch them play?”
No. I didn’t watch them, and I didn’t even remember seeing them. We didn’t get the paper, you
know. And it was just all new to me I heard about them, but not a whole lot you know. And so
no, when they called for me to come into their try out I was surprised I was brave enough to do
it. I was pretty shy at that time.
(09:06)
Interviewer: “At that time, alright. And then, when you are doing the try outs, what did
they actually make you do?”
At the try out? Well we had to bat, and hit and then field you know you caught during the try
outs, and stuff like that. But we didn’t do a lot of exercises and stuff it was mostly batting and
catching and stuff like that you know. Mainly if you are a catcher they had you back there
catching but that was pretty much, we didn’t do many exercises or anything like that so 50 girls
you know so hit around with all of them.
Interviewer: “Alright, don’t catchers have a lot sort of to learn about how to call a game
and that kind of thing? Now you hadn’t played a lot of organized ball.”
�Right, and you know the reason that I did that was because I thought well I think there is one
position that they might need more than anybody else and it would be catching. And I thought
well I can do that. (10:00) I can throw a little pitch you know and I thought, well that’s
something I can do so that’s why I tried out for there, I thought that was my best chance. I was, I
was probably a little chunkier at that time and that was another thing, I wasn’t one of the real fast
girls that run and stuff like that and I thought, I think that’s my best chance. So that was why I
tried out and I did hard too, you know. And that’s why I said being out batting late it helped.
Interviewer: “Alright, and then, tell me a little bit more about how the spring training
worked. There actually still doing that at Wrigley Field there was the first couple seasons
they, what’s the process there? Now the people that come there, are they already signed
into the league? Or are they still eliminating people?
Well some of them were were, I mean they had been they had been there for 2 years. So a lot of
them were regulars, but then us rookies had to fill in for the regulars you know, and that was put
you know in a hard spot there (11:00) because they were so good and we were just so
inexperienced and trying so hard you know. But we did all kinds of exercises and stuff. Being to
the farm I worked on the farm and I did just about anything you could do on a farm. Milked the
cows you know, but I, you know I was in pretty good shape even though I was a little bit heavier.
And I, so it didn’t really bother me, the exercises and stuff. But still, at the end of the day you it
would almost like you could crawl back to the hotel you know, so and it was after the exercise it
was bad and the usual, much like the men’s you know.
Interviewer: “Ok, and then how do you find out how you made the cut and you are
assigned to a team? What happens?”
Well, there, well I can’t remember exactly but I know they read it off or we, I can’t remember if
we read something or, they just notified us and I don’t remember exactly how.
Interviewer: “Ok, so what was your response when you found out that you had sort of
made it?”
(12:01)
I was elated. I hadn’t quit my job or anything; I had to taken a leave of absence. So I went back
and I had to quit my job and stuff, before I started playing ball.
Interviewer: “Alright, now this is still fairly early in the history of the league. How much of
the rules and regulations and etiquette training and all of that kind of stuff, when they
teach you how to behave and so forth, how much of that was still in place when you
started?”
Well when I was there in 45, I did not go to charm school. Now the gal that went with me said
that she did. So I don’t know how I got out of that, but somehow I missed that. So they must
�have had it in 1945, but I think that was the last year because the following year it wasn’t in
effect. And we thought it was ridiculous to put on eye shadow and lipstick and put on our masks
and then go out and catch, you know? Play any position and you are perspiring (13:00) it’s bad
enough the way it is, all of that gear on you and stuff. But I knew the girls had to keep their hair
short and keep it curled. And anyway, down down to your neck there and so forth. And I wasn’t
much, I always had really short hair, much as I do now as I grew up. Then of course I had to
learn to curl my hair so it would look nice and then you would go out to practice in the morning
and you had your hair curled and when you come home it wasn’t curled, you’d curl it up again,
and I got so tired of curling my hair that after I was out of baseball it didn’t take me long to have
straight hair.
Interviewer: “Alright, and they had the dress code regulations? The skirts and…”
Yeah, yeah. No slacks, and things like that. And we would go on the bus and if you had to have a
potty break or something you would put your skirt over your slacks or take them off and if you
had shorts on you know you would have to cover them up (14:00). But one thing that I didn’t
like and I heard about the Comets and so forth was the skirts. I thought oh my god I couldn’t
show my legs, and I came from a town that was very modest and so that was hard, that was
something I thought I couldn’t do that. But once I played in the, the one series I thought well I
guess I could wear these uniforms. I never knew what to do people.
Interviewer: “Alright, now you were not too much of a runner so you didn’t get as many
strawberries as some of them did?”
Right, I got my share. But you know, they would send me, there would be a shock to the pitcher,
I would make second base but yeah, you get your share. But I didn’t steal like a lot of the girls.
Interviewer: “Alright, tell me a little bit more about that first season in Grand Rapids as
sort of a learning experience for you, you are the backup catcher. What kind of
accommodations did you have? Where did you stay when you were up there?”
(15:05)
We stayed with private families. And that was real nice you know, but we didn’t always have
transportation so it was like you had to take a bus or take a car. I didn’t have a car until 1948 so
that was a little difficult you know. Getting there in the morning for practice and then go home
and shower and so forth and go back and get ready for the game at night that was kind of a
bummer but you know it all worked out but…
Interviewer: “About how far from the field were you living from do you think?”
I don’t think I can remember.
Interviewer: “Were they playing at Southfield at that point?”
�Yeah.
Interviewer: “Ok, so that’s still in town right?”
Yeah
Interviewer: “Rather than Bigelow field which they played at later. Alright. Ok, and then
what was it like going on the road with the team?”
Well that was really super, I mean you know, at first when we went to spring training and from
there we went to Grand Rapids we took trains and that was really a bummer (16:01) because we
had to get on a train and it was it was one of those old fire trains and you would get all dirty and
then you always had a layover in in in Chicago and you wanted to go enjoy the scenery and
everything when you went back and forth, and we spent a lot of time you know, just getting back
and forth and it was during the war too and you know if if there was military men on the train
you were supposed to stand up and let them have the seats but of course the guys were always so
nice they always let you sit down which was very nice. So when they got the buses we were just
elated by that time I mean oh my goodness. To just hop on a bus you know was wonderful.
Interviewer: “That first season in Grand Rapids you were still riding trains most of the
time?”
Yup, yup.
Interviewer: “Alright, and then how much supervision did you have? How much
supervision did you have? How much did they look after you or regulate what you did?”
(17:00)
Well if you had a sore arm or any kind of bangs or bruises or anything you know, they would
take care of you. I know when I have a picture of I was in, we were we were practicing on some
field I don’t know where it was. Whether it was spring training, I think it was part of spring
training. And I had, I was playing in the offense catching flies and stuff. And I had stepped and
sprained my ankle really bad. So the chaperone came out there of course and took care of me.
And we had to put ice on it and all that stuff. Well then she said well you have to use heat. Well
evidently I must have been able to stand a lot of heat or something because I burned my ankle
something fierce and I had to heat it and it was going to make it well in a hurry you know and so
that wasn’t too pleasant. But had our share of, you know got spiked several times and stuff like
that. So they were wonderful really. But my first year I might add that I was so shy I don’t know
if I said 3 words the whole year. I’d listen and I didn’t ever have much to say you know, and I
kind of got over that but it took awhile. You know because I was just a _ you know.
(18:13)
�Interviewer: “Ok, ok you got to the end of that first season. Now, did they tell you that they
wanted you to come back or what?”
No, I was just went home and when they wrote in the spring training you know I went to South
Bend.
Interviewer: “Alright”
And that was fine. It didn’t bother me. The only time it bothered me was when I was with some,
I had met some wonderful, really close friends. We lived in, we lived in a house and a lady went
away for the winter and she let us stay in her house. It was 4 of us there and we got to be so close
you know. Well we were going on a road trip and we were loading up on the bus actually and
they called me over and told me it was I was traded to Racine (19:03). And at that time I thought
Racine was one of the better teams and I thought oh gosh you know, how will be accepted in a
team like that that won a championship? You know and stuff and I was kind of worried. And I
cried a lot, and I hadn’t before ever ever cried, couldn’t. And at that time I had a car so I had to
drive wherever it was to be the Racines so that was a bummer right before the bus left to go
somewhere and then told that you had been traded you know, so. But after that it didn’t bother
me.
Interviewer: “Alright, after your first season did you get more regular playing time as
catcher?”
Yeah, probably, well yeah probably even the second year I was behind Bonnie Baker as catcher
and it took a couple of years or so before I got to being got more playing time (20:04) you know,
but you got wait your turn you know. And you know I always thought a lot of the girls have so
much experience of course they had teams out there that played a lot so I just waited it out. So I
just kept trying and working and catching a lot batting practice. So…
Interviewer: “K, did you get to pitch hit or come into the games?”
Oh yeah I would a lot of times. I was a pretty good hitter. And yeah I did pitch you know, I’d get
my chances if we were ahead they put me in so I would get the experience and yeah that never
bothered me. I was just there and I was playing you know, and hung in there.
Interviewer: “Now you played with a number of different teams. Who do you think were
the best pitchers that you got to catch?”
Well the underhand pitchers was Connie Wisniewski (21:01) she was terrific. She was really
fine. Jo Kabick was on the team and was an underhand pitcher and she was fast, she was a really
good pitcher. Then, then later on when we went overhand I admired Jean Faut she was a great
pitcher and you know it was funny because I could hit Jeannie like nothing for some reason and
it used to get to Jeannie and she said she told them one time that it didn’t matter what she pitched
I would get a hit you know. But she was a great pitcher.
�Interviewer: “Alright, when you were catching her, who called the pitches? Did she decide
pretty much what to pitch, or did you just know?”
I called the pitches pretty much, when she was there. And we just got along so good and I think it
was Dottie Mueller that she pitched a golden game one time and I got her and you know I did
call the pitches (22:00). I used to sit in the dug-out you know when the other team was warming
up and stuff like that and I would watch the hitters, where they hit the ball and how they hit the
ball you know and kind of study them so I would kind of know where not to pitch them you
know.
Interviewer: “So it may be that you and Jean were pretty much on the same page.”
Yeah.
Interviewer: “Because when I interviewed her, she was pretty sure that she was picking
most of her own pitches.”
Well you know, she shakes it off and maybe she did, you know it’s been a long time. But I know
for the most part I…
Interviewer: “Right, but you and she did essentially the same thing. Which was to study the
hitters and then to get it so you got that together.”
Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: “Now, one of the things about the league was there were certain women who
were really good base stealers. And, were you, how successful were you at keeping them
under control?”
I’ll tell you what to be honest I wasn’t the best catcher to pick off people (23:00). Now I had this
thing when I was in Grand Rapids, I used to throw a little bit more side arm and I had a much
better arm. Well when I got there they said oh, you go to learn how to throw overhand like this.
So I got so that I practiced, I did have a good sore arm from doing it in Grand Rapids my first
year, but I got the hang of it. But what it did was made me conscious of I had to bring my arm up
to throw the ball and I lost the timing of it and I just couldn’t overcome that so I wasn’t the best
in my mind I was always you know am I going to do this right?, or something you know and it
probably, I wasn’t the best catcher to pick off people. I was good at something but just to be
honest.
Interviewer: “Now once you got to be playing fairly regularly, were you a pretty consistent
hitter?”
Yeah, yeah. I was a pretty good hitter considering the batting averages that we have you know
the girls. I was right up there, not real close to the top but my last year in South Bend was my
best year around 77 so…
�(24:12)
Interviewer: “Now would you get extra base hits, would you get doubles and triples?”
Yeah. I never hit a home run. I can’t believe that because I was so slow. That would mean that I
would have to hit it over the fence and we didn’t have that many fences. We did in South Bend
but we didn’t in Grand Rapids. And I could do it in practice but I never did it in a game.
Interviewer: “Alright, now you were, what was the total length of time you were playing?
You started in really in ’45 in terms of full seasons and… ”
’52, eight years.
Interviewer: “Okay, that’s a good chunk of time in there and a lot of different things went
on in the league at that time. One of the things was that you kept moving spring training
around.”
Right.
Interviewer: “Your first spring training was Wrigley field.”
(25:00)
That’s right.
Interviewer: “Where did you go in later years?”
Oh gosh. We were in Mississippi, Indiana. We went to Florida. And I don’t know, so many
places I can’t remember all of them.
Interviewer: “Did you make the trip to Cuba?”
Yes I did.
Interviewer: “Alright”
That was quite a thing. My first airplane ride and first of everything and that was a lot of fun. I
mean, but I wasn’t too crazy about the food over there. So I ordered some leche, that’s milk and
at lunch time they would have ham sandwiches and stuff, American you know, milk…and I kind
of liked that. And they had fried bananas and powdered eggs and stuff that I didn’t eat…
Interviewer: “Alright, now how was playing in Cuba different than playing in the states?”
Well actually it was very much the same.
Interviewer: “Well I’m thinking in terms of the fans and the atmosphere.”
�Well the fans, yeah yeah. They were something else. Actually we knew more people over there
than we did in America so that was really interesting (26:00). So being in a hotel at that walking
on the streets you have to be with somebody at the time. And we had a curfew. And we couldn’t
go out of the hotel you know, because it was too dangerous. But anyway it was kind of comical
we had, I have a picture of it, we had we had the long rope had been hung from the 3rd floor and
it had a basket on it and we would lower that and the guys down stairs would go and get us some
cokes you know and we would pull it up and I got a picture of that you know. But my daughter
brought them up when she was here some of them, I remember that you know and sloppy joes. I
have pictures of course. I have a lot of pictures.
Interviewer: “And what sloppy joes?”
Well it was, they use a lot of their drink, what is it? Rum, they had a lot of rum and stuff, but I
wasn’t a drinker so I had coke, never was one to… I have never had a drink in my life.
(27:00)
Interviewer: “Alright, then what did you remember about Pascagoula? What was that
like?”
I remember going into the barracks when we were at an army base and opening the door and turn
on a light and cockroaches running everywhere you know. And we used to call it Cockroach
Boulevard and it was something else you know, it was something else. We slept with the lights
on but that was something else. But our managers at that time when they saw the situation they
came back with this, I forget what kind of fish that was red...no that’s not it.
Interviewer: “River snapper?”
Yeah, something like that. And they cooked it outside on a fire pit and that was the best fish I’ve
ever…that was good.
Interviewer: “Now when you came back from Pascagoula did you just go to your
individual teams or did you stop and play along the way?”
(28:04)
We paired off with another team and then we would stop at various places. They had a book and
we would play at exhibitions. Gave us the practice to play with teams and people could see what
kind of ball we played and in many places the people there were so great you know. That one
place, I think it was North Carolina a guy took us out on a cruise it was so nice, a nice man you
know took us out on like on a boat and we went on a cruise and stuff like that. But they always
wanted us in parades and stuff like that. You know, it was, it was fun. We would kind of laugh
amongst ourselves, we’re not nothing you know we’re just ball players you know. But it was a
great experience.
�Interviewer: “Now were you with the group that played at Griffins Stadium in Washington
and then when up into Yankee stadium? You didn’t do that part?”
(29:00)
I wished I had, but no.
Interviewer: “Ok, so what parts of the country did you tour through then, because you
were in the south?”
Through the south North Carolina, South Carolina, or Virginia or whatever…Mississippi.
Interviewer: “Ok, did you have one season that you thought was probably sort of your best
season or your most successful one, or either individually or as a team?”
Well I don’t know. Yeah I guess you know as far as the friendships and stuff that was one thing,
but of course I was fairly happy with my last year when we won the championship because I had
never won a championship before, but then in ’52 we won a championship then and that was just
an amazing you know. Although at that time you know I had been married for 2 years and after a
game I would go right home you know. I didn’t participate with the girls a lot and stuff. So I
probably wasn’t as close to them as I was with some of the other teams before.
(30:06)
Interviewer: “Now were you still catching at that time or had you changed positions?”
No, at that time I was playing at first base. I played the last two years.
Interviewer: “Now would you rather have kept catching or was it better at first?”
Well I like catching better but first base was ok too.
Interviewer: “Why did they shift you out from catcher?”
I don’t know. Maybe because, maybe because I didn’t throw well enough.
Interviewer: “Alright, well let’s see what was it? Well I guess when you had been growing
up and had been playing you would play anyplace, well first base you got to field grounders
and that kind of thing…”
Oh yeah, we’d play short stop or play the outfield you know. A few times I played the outfield
sometimes they would just stick me in so I could play. I was a pretty good hitter so they would
put me in and I liked that.
�Interviewer: “Ok, well you mentioned that you got married during your career, which was
a little bit unusual. Tell us a little bit about that, how did you wind up getting married?
And what, how, what happened after that?”
(31:04)
Well yeah, well I had been going with my husband for about, I probably met him about a year or
two into when I was playing ball. And he used to come to Peoria and places to see me play and
stuff like that. And then of course then when I would go home we liked to dance and we would
go to a lot of dances every Saturday night and stuff. And then finally he in ’50 we got married so
I was playing in Racine, well no I wasn’t but anyway a bunch of the girls from the Racine girls
came to the wedding and it was real fun we had a big wedding. So we had been building our own
house before we were married because I said my parents lost their house and I saw what they
went through and I always said if I’m going to get married I’m going to have a house. So my
husband and I, he hadn’t done much building, (32:00) he had some cows and stuff but he hadn’t
done much building. But I had worked on the farm. I had shingled roofs and I had made cement
block. My Dad was always going to build a house and he never got to it but I would make
cement blocks by myself you know. So I had more experience. And we bought a place you know
and we did all, we built the house ourselves and we did all the cement work. I mixed it with an
electric mixer I mixed all the cement and Ray would install it. And I ended up bricking the whole
house and we had a very very nice house. We had hardwood floors. We did have, my uncle was
a carpenter so we did have him that was quite a job in itself you know. Ray learned and did the
electrical and the plumbing and I was right there to help with whatever, I helped with the roof
and putting in the cement floors. So we built part, we built 4 rooms and it was like a little doll
house. It was really cute, all we needed was utility you know. And then we added on 5 rooms
and we didn’t move in until it was done and we did have it plastered. We did all the dry wall but
we did get it plastered.
(33:14)
Interviewer: “At the beginning of that you mentioned that you had a book on how to build
a house?”
Yes, how to build a house.
Interviewer: “Alright, and you just followed that.”
Yes.
Interviewer: “How did you pay for it?”
Well I was working then again at that time American Motors. When I left South Bend, people
from the South Bend from the dealership there got me a job again back in American Motors. So
when I went back I had a job. So I worked there for several years and we were paid for it as we
�went along. Because we didn’t have much money and they wouldn’t give you a loan. So then we
paid for it as we went along. And we never owed a penny on our house.
Interviewer: “Were you able to save any money from when you were a ball player?”
(34:01)
Oh yeah. I was a saver. I used to save you know. Well you could get a meal for a buck then you
know after a game and stuff. Yeah I was a saver and that was one of the reasons that I could con
my husband into letting me play ball I could save my money you know and you could save yours
and we can add that 5 rooms on you know. So he was, he was a wonderful guy and very great so
he went a long with it. Which was so...yeah.
Interviewer: “Now did the league have a policy about married players? Were you treated
differently?”
Not really, except for riding the bus. I know Karl Winsch was our manager at the time and Ray
came down and it wasn’t too long after that we were married and we were both one city to
another and Ray was down there to visit and he wouldn’t let me ride with him. He said no, you
can’t ride, you have to ride in the bus because of insurance and blah blah blah you know and so
Ray had to drive by himself. I thought well come on.
(35:02)
Interviewer: “And then did you still have to stay in the team hotels with the girls and that
kind of thing?”
Oh yeah.
Interviewer: “So he was on his own there?”
Yeah, yeah.
Interviewer: “Alright, now why did you wind up leaving the league? Because you finished
after ’52.”
Mainly because I had been married for 2 years and things, you could see that things were going
to slow down. We weren’t going the way we did Ray coming over and driving back and stuff
like that. So there was one time that we didn’t we had to wait for our bus and stuff and I thought
I had been married for 2 years and it was time and it’s not fair to Ray and you are going to have
to hang it up sometime. But then, so then I called it quits. But I went on playing since and I
played with my two daughters until they went to college. I even played when they were in
college, we played summer ball. You know, so I never quit playing. Actually I played quite a bit
so.
�(36:03)
Interviewer: “Alright, so now so did you go, did you have continue to work or were you
eventually able to just to stay home or…?”
Well yeah, I worked for I guess about 5 years until when Janet my oldest daughter was born I
had to you know. And I was working nights, and Ray was working days. Well you know how
was it? He was working the nights and I was working the days. So Janet the baby, Janet the baby
would sleep during the night when I would get home from work should we rearing to go you
know. So I didn’t get much sleep. Well one day I was giving her a bath in the morning and I fell
asleep giving her a bath and it scared the tar out of me. So I quit after that, I took a leave of
absence, I quit. So then I didn’t work for, until the kids were in school. Then I worked part time
in the post man’s office. I used to fill in for her some. Then the last six years I worked full time
in the postman’s office and I retired from there.
(37:16)
Interviewer: “Alright, now as time goes on and you’ve got your daughters growing up, do
your daughters play sports or did you encourage them?”
Oh yeah, both of them played. Well Janet was more interested in music which she was a good
ball player but my youngest daughter was an excellent ball player and she’s a phys ed teacher
today. She was an excellent, she could have made the, actually they had a team in the Peoria
after that we went down when I was coaching and we went down and played them and lost to
them but I think we lost one to nothing actually. But Judy played in the, what was it? Applehorn.
Irene Applehorn was signed down there and she said you know you should Judy try out for this
team. Well you know, she was only 15 and I said oh she’s too young. Come on. But I couldn’t let
her go, so.
(38:13)
Interviewer: “As you are kind of going forward in time there are starting to be more
opportunities for women to be involved in sports and Title 9 comes into and stuff. Were
you following that or paying attention to what was happening?”
Not, not a whole lot. I mean, I mean we had more competitive sports. Although when my kids
were in high school they just started a basketball and volleyball or something, there still wasn’t
softball or anything in high school. But then when you went into college she played, the
youngest one played volleyball and softball and then I coached at the college area she was in,
close to Kenosha. And she, Janet went on into music.
(38:58)
�Interviewer: “Okay, back when you were playing in the league, did any you think about
what you were doing as sort of pioneering? Or doing new things for women?”
When I came home from the league I had, I had 8 balls one signed from every year that I played.
I had a bunch of different program books from all the various towns. I had contracts; I had 2
uniforms, a jacket with that went on the league at the time. I take the uniforms and stuff like that
so I had all that stuff and I threw it into a closet and forgot about it, you know. Well then when
my kids got to be 7, 8 years old one time I dragged them out put the uniforms on them and took
pictures of them you know. So they knew a little bit, I never really talked about it, but all the
years I played nobody really…you know and then it seemed like we had our first reunion in 1982
(40:00) and when I got that letter it had a picture of a baseball player on it and it was just like
they were calling you for spring training and you are getting your contract. I opened that letter
and I was just so excited you know. That we were going to have a reunion. Well I went to the
post office and I had, you had to pick your spot when you wanted to take your vacation at the
beginning of the year and that was it. So I had taken vacation a different time already with Ray,
and so I went up to them and said well you know this reunion is coming up and I am going to
that reunion I have to have off. You know I have to change, and at first they said well that’s too
bad you had your vacation picked out, we can’t do anything about it. I says, well then I quit. I
would’ve quit too. No question in my mind. Well anyway, it didn’t take them too long after that.
Then I found out that I could take off of work you know. So I went to that reunion and of course
that was something else. And you would have to look at people they would have a little picture
from when we played and we would say oh that’s who you are. You know, just like we knew it.
Now we see each other more often.
(41:19)
Interviewer: “So you’ve really been involved in this sort of league organization to regroup
since pretty much its inception. Now were you involved at all in the steps surrounding the
movie?”
Oh yeah, oh yeah. Actually we went out to Cooperstown (New York) for the unveiling of our
display for the first time and that was something else. I think they said there was around 400
people there. The guy said he never saw so many people for something like that you know at the
museum there. So that was really a thrill to do that. So then when they came and said they were
going to make the movie oh my god we were like wow (42:00). You know so then they were
going to have these try outs for the movie and they said whomever would like to try out for the
movie if you can still play ball come to Smokey, Illinois. Well Anna Hutchinson who was a great
pitcher and lived in Racine, we were pretty good buddies by that time said we can play ball, heck
we can go down to Smokey. So we went down to Smokey and of course Madonna was there and
other ball players were there and stuff. And what was really cute was I went up and asked
Madonna for an autograph and I got a ball. So I got an autograph from Madonna and I didn’t
realize that nobody else but the ball players could go talk to the movie stars you know. Well we
�all had shirts on that we could tell so in the meantime I met this young man there and he was so
elated that Madonna was there he just wanted to say hello you know (43:01). I said to him, I said
“Gee I went up and asked for her autograph and I don’t think it’s any problem. Just go up and
ask her she’s very nice”, you know. Well he starts walking up toward Madonna and there were
men all around her within about 2 seconds they said “Where do you think you’re going?” You
know, I felt so bad I thought oh my god I told the poor guy that you could go up and ask
Madonna for an autograph. They just chased him away they didn’t do anything you know but so
that was all of you know. But then they were looking for the way I understand it that we could
play the part of the older players later you know, but you had to have the same eyes, the same
hair this ball of wax and it didn’t work out you know. Then we heard that they were just going to
take a few people extras to Coopersville. Well then our advisor said that I could that she had
talked to Penny or somebody and said you know all these 49 people came out for the play offs. I
think you should take them all (44:06). Well then they decided to take them all. So then Hutch
and I got to go there for the movie. But what the sad part was that the reunion at that time was
the same time as the movie in Florida. So that was the first reunion I was going to miss. You
know, and that kind of broke my heart, but you have to make a choice and I think we made the
right one, it was a fun time. We played ball all day and stuff like that. And she took hundreds of
film you know and one thing that I thought was great was on the scene when they came back to
the hall of fame but my friend there one day she forgot her glasses. Well they’re filming and all
of the sudden they say cut and Madonna or or...what’s her name? Our producer,
Interviewer: “Penny Marshall”
(45:00)
Penny Marshall, I’m sorry. She goes up and says you don’t have your glasses on. I mean, you
know here’s this whole bunch of people and she had to go get her glasses on before they could
start the film. She was just a stickler for…you know just oh just perfection. And then the thing
that killed me was when we had to cut the ribbon to the hall of fame, it took us 2 days to get that
right and we were there until I don’t know what time in the morning before she was satisfied,
and we were all going home that day. We were pretty concerned you know but…geese, she was
a perfectionist. But it was neat, we stayed in the motels there. And we got to see a lot of friends
again, all my friends were there. So that was really, it was a good time. But like I told Penny one
time, I said well I said it was a great time I talked to her but I wouldn’t want to be a movie star I
says it’s too hard. You spend all that time doing it over and over you know so. Then Penny, she
really put us on the map.
(46:18)
Interviewer: “Now if you look back over your playing career, what affect do you think
getting to play professional ball, what affect did that have on you or what did that do for
you?”
�Well I’ll tell you, for me it made me more outgoing type of a person. I had more confidence in
myself you know and I just figured it wasn’t anything I couldn’t do. So when we could build a
house, we could do anything. Anything you want to do you can do in this life if you just work
hard and keep working.
Interviewer: “Alright, well you got a great story, you do a great job at telling it.”
I was going to tell you about where I saw the movie.
(47:05)
Interviewer: “Yeah, do that, yes please.”
After we were in the movie, then my daughter lived in Europe for 7 or 8 years in Germany, and
we had been over there several times. Well we went over there, it must have been ’91 or ’92
when the movie came out and so Janet had a radio station or something and said you know about
me being in the movie and that I had played in that ball. And so Frankfurt called us, called Janet,
they must have gotten her number. And said that they had already shown the movie at the theatre
in Frankfurt, and she said Piper’s her daughter and they said would your mother come to the
movie and she can bring her family and she said and talk to the people afterwards after the movie
you know, and we will bring the movie back. So we said, oh sure, so we went to Frankfurt and
they took us all through the studio (48:00) and showed us a bunch of stuff and that and we went
to the movie and we talked for a little bit afterwards with the people and stuff but the thing that I
thought was neat is that my family over there got to get in on this movie thing you know because
they didn’t get much news and stuff from at home you know. Where my other family, my other
daughter was right there in Kenosha and she lived with me kind of. So then this reporter came
over to interview us and Piper’s daughter. And my grandkids were pretty small then and I had
brought one grandchild with me from Kenosha and so they, we were throwing balls and doing all
kinds of things and they were pitching to me and we were hitting and she took all these pictures
and everything and you know or movies and they put it on the TV and of course they made it
sound like I was Tina Davis because I had (49:00) come from a farm and I had told her all that
stuff. You know, but I had also told her that this was a composite; you know it’s not about me,
it’s not about, it’s about all the players and everything and I had never liked that when one would
take credit for it you know. So when she made the movie the tape, it made it sound like I was
Tina Davis you know, and I was pretty embarrassed about that, I didn’t want to show anybody.
And she did a really good job, so anyway later somehow she contacted me and sent me the tape.
So I have a tape of that interview in the in Germany you know. So that was a thrill. And then too
they took pictures and that and put them into the Stars and Stripes in an article about all the
league and about my name. So we were somewhere with Janet and some guy walked up and said
you look so familiar were you in the paper? You know, and here he had seen it in Stars and
Stripes you know. I thought that was pretty great.
�(50:01)
Interviewer: “So when you are being interviewed in Frankfurt was this by sort of by the
American military bases there and stuff?
Yes there was from the military bases. She was in the military and actually she tried to contact
me after she got out of the military and she called Dolly White and for some reason Dolly
wouldn’t give her my address and stuff and we lost track. And I went she was supposed to move
to Warsaw. So my husband and I were going up that way to see my brother and we stopped there
and tried to find her name in the book and stuff and we couldn’t find her. I felt bad about that,
she was a nice gal and she was really interested in the league and she wanted to stay interested
you know and we just lost out on her. You know, so that was that was a real experience that I
never would have thought I would have. Oh and I was on a marquee at a theatre. It said: “Joyce
Hill a Western Leader,” you know and I thought oh my god.
(51:00)
Interviewer: “You’re a star. Did you have something else? Oh you have a…”
Oh a friend of mine is from a neighboring place there and plays with the Kenosha Kings and he
hits. He comes back every year from Australia he went over there to coach and its softball or
baseball for the girls. So then after a couple of years the Australian girls came up here in
Kenosha were in the World Series thing. So this summer since they’ve been back again in to play
once again, and married a girl from Australia, she’s young. Oh they’re bringing 5 or 6 girls over
from Australia and they are going to make a tour of Rockford and there’s another team, I don’t
know much about it, we just found out about it at the meeting but they are going to play those
girls. I met the head of it (52:02). It was Ron, you know my friend. Everything just sort of gels
somehow you know? From one thing to another, so I had talked to Ron and he gave me a
schedule and said that you’re invited to come to all these things you know the Cubs games, you
know go see the Cubs. He said I’ll pick you up and take you and bring you back so that’s
another thing these girls are doing which is just super. It call came kind of from the background
of the All Americans. And I think that is one of the things that I’m the proudest of. You look out
how these kids started in little league as little girls you know, and they are great athletes. That’s
nice.
Interviewer: “Alright”
Oh in Milwaukee, yeah (53:00). They have a wall of fame and they were honoring some of the
Wisconsin girls. One every year for awhile and they would have a luncheon and we would get up
on a plaque. Now we have new owners in Milwaukee and they don’t do as much for us. So they
just decided that they just said that they put all the Wisconsin people on a plaque you know. But
that was really nice you know ...they gave us a Milwaukee blue jacket, it was nice yeah. It was
nice being there. There were several of us that would go there.
�So many things that, and it all evolved from the league so, it’s all tied together.
Interviewer: “It is and it’s kind of good to see more things coming back around kind of
getting more connecting women back to base ball, and more people playing. And you get to
sort of be connected to them. Alright.
Yeah right. One thing that I am really proud of, it’s my family. Two girls (54:00) and I have 8
grand children. Jan has 4 and my other daughter has 4. And most of them, almost all of them are
really good athletes. Dance, you know and that sort of thing. I’m very proud of them. Next to the
league that’s the greatest thing that ever happened to me.
Interviewer: “Alright, well thank again for coming in and talking to us.”
(54:24)
��
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-02
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-58_JWesterman
Title
A name given to the resource
Westerman, Joyce (Interview outline and video), 2010
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Westerman, Joyce
Description
An account of the resource
Joyce Westerman was born in Kenosha, Wisconsin, in 1925. She grew up there and played sports whenever she could. She was playing ball on a company team in Kenosha when she was offered a chance to fill in for an injured player for the Kenosha Comets in 1944, and then joined the league in 1945. She played for eight seasons, including stops in Grand Rapids, South Bend, Racine and Peoria, primarily playing catcher.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James (Interviewer)
WKTV (Wyoming, Mich.)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-08-07
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4