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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b40c239e437e675b6583b1cf04ac05da.pdf
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Living with PFAS
Interviewer: Danielle DeVasto
Interviewee: Tom Sapkowski
Date of Interview: 9/2/2021
Danielle DeVasto: I'm Dani DeVasto, and today, September 2, 2021, I have the pleasure of chatting with
Tom Sapkowski. Hi, Tom.
Tom Sapkowski: Hello.
Danielle DeVasto: Tom, can you tell me about where you're from and where you currently live?
Tom Sapkowski: Rapids, Michigan. I grew up on the west side of Grand Rapids, but I currently live in
Belmont, and that's been for the past 27, 28 years, uh, I've lived in this area at this location.
Danielle DeVasto: All right. Tom, can you tell me a story about your experience with PFAS or with PFAS
in your community?
Tom Sapkowski: Sure. Um, I believe my family came here __________ 00:00:44 back in __________
00:00:46 probably late in the summer. I know there was some, uh, media coverage regarding, um,
contamination of water in our area. Um, __________ 00:01:00 made the executive __________ 00:01:02
our well tested, um, but __________ 00:01:06 it was in October of 2017. And it's odd that—I ordered the
tests from a-a place called Accurate Environmental, and, uh, because there's only, uh, maybe like a
dozen, um, labs in the country that were able to test for PFAS down to a-a very, uh, __________
00:01:27 or why I decided to expand the test area so we were going to be tested by a place called Rose
& Westra. That's the test facility that they used. So, um, I was actually, I was a day early on the testing,
but the good news about that is, um, our test results were matched against Rose & Westra's test results,
you know, for accuracy by two different labs so we were basically checking the checker. Um, it did cost
me __________ 00:02:03 which I think it was just over $600 to have it done. So that didn't make me very
happy, but, um, I realized it was something that, uh, that certainly needed to be done and, um, the results
were similar. Our long story short is our well, uh, which was put in in 1985, um, before, we were not the
original owners of the house. But, uh, our well tested, uh, at a non-detect level. A level below, uh, five
parts per trillion. Um, __________ 00:02:42 a neighbor's, just across the street, and, um, their well tested
__________ 00:02:50, and I think then again __________ 00:02:54 not ridiculously though, so
__________ 00:03:00 we remain on the edge of __________ 00:03:04 and, uh—
Danielle DeVasto: Whoop, Tom, you cut out there for a second.
Tom Sapkowski: Oh, I'm sorry. Sorry about that. Um, we had a third test done just recently by the
Department of Health and Human Services. And once again, our water and the __________ 00:03:25 for
PFAS, um, but there are like, I don't know, there's probably 18 different types of PFAS, uh, compounds,
um, so, um, like I said, our-our well has tested __________ 00:03:45, but it didn't test, uh, positive for
PFAS, even though we're very, very close to the, uh, the area that is contaminated. Um, um, I'm, my
house is roughly a mile-and-a-quarter, a mile-and-a-half from the House Street dump where Wolverine,
um, put the lion's share of their, uh, leather scraps that are contaminated with, uh, with Scotchgard, which
was the 3M, um, name for, uh, their water repellent. So, um, I hope, I'm sorry, I hope that answers your
question.
Danielle DeVasto: Yeah, um—
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�Tom Sapkowski: Oh, it does?
Danielle DeVasto: —it does. So, I mean it, so it sounds like you've-you've had extensive testing done,
um, with relatively good results.
Tom Sapkowski: Yeah, and I don't know, I mean extensive as far as how accurately they're able to
detect, um, __________ 00:04:43, but, um, __________ 00:04:47 our third test is only 21 so it's been a
lot of __________ 00:04:55 I've been __________ 00:04:57 bringing to continue to test because when I
was, when you're that close to contaminated well, you never know, and maybe no, it may test positive or
negative today, and positive tomorrow. So, you just don't know what's going on in the aquifer. Um, we can
make various assumptions about what's going on, uh, geologically under-under our home. Uh, our well
and our neighbor's well are roughly on the same plane. They're around a hundred-and-twenty feet deep.
Um, so you would think that we would be drinking the same water, but, uh, according to some geologists
that I've spoke with, uh, they think we might be on something called a perch aquifer. So, um, and there's a
lot of clay in our area, which, um, is not, uh, you know, it is impervious to-to the water so that may be why
our well tests clean at this point.
Danielle DeVasto: Sounds like you've, um, become quite an expert on aquifers and all manner of things.
[LAUGHTER]
Tom Sapkowski: A little bit, a little bit. I mean, uh, geology was my science in college, which, uh, a lot of
people don't, they-they-they call it rocks for jocks. Have you ever heard that?
Danielle DeVasto: Yes. [LAUGHTER]
Tom Sapkowski: That's what the ath—that's where the athletes go because they don't want to do
physics and chemistry. But, um, I really like geology so that was my science.
Danielle DeVasto: So-so what is next for you guys?
Tom Sapkowski: Well, we're obviously concerned __________ 00:06:38, and, um, we're involved in two
different, uh, health studies where three of us in-in my family have had, um, blood taken, and, uh, we've
gotten results back. Um, my wife and I test low in variou—in certain, uh, compounds of PFAS and
__________ 00:06:59, but we're very, very high in, in a, in a select few. Um, __________ 00:07:07 were,
uh, able, uh, to __________ 00:07:09 health outcomes because, uh, people around House Street, the-the
actual dump __________ 00:07:15, um, there's is what we __________ 00:07:19 around there that
they've been, it must've been pretty high level, um, for the past however many years that they've been
dumping. I think back in the early 1950s, um, you know, you have been trying to __________ 00:07:36 to
figure out how-how long it took that compound to get into the aquifer so. Um, but, yeah, there's, uh,
there's been a number of deaths that have been linked to the contamination. And, um, and, you know,
and people who are alive that, uh, have health concerns, um, because of this. So, our main, our main
concern in the family is that, you know, are there, are there gonna be any negative health problems,
kidney problems, pancreas problems, can—um, and so far there haven't so we've been very fortunate. I
have two children. Um, currently, my daughter is 20, and my son is 27. They've been drinking, um, our
well water __________ 00:08:19 for their entire lives. So, even when my wife was pregnant with, uh, with
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�them, too. So, if, um, if anything, they-they should be, uh, good test subjects for the __________
00:08:37, so. But, um, like I said, things, so far, things, um, we're in relatively good health. Um, I have
some kidney issues, but they may or may not __________ 00:08:52. Um, you know, it's very, it's-it's, it
would be difficult to-to prove that at this point. Um, I've been a mechanic my whole life so I've been
around a lot of, uh, industrial solvents and things like that, so that may have something to do with it as
well. But, uh, but that's our main concern and basically concern for others. And, uh, it's a unique situation
in that the simple part is Wolverine has, uh, you know, openly admitted to dumping what they dumped at
House Street. And, um, it's, you know, it's sort of a smoking gun as far as what's been, what's been done.
Um, you think they-they knew it was, uh, a hazardous chemical, uh, even early on 'cause of its nature.
Um, it's a synthetic compound and it really doesn't break down, uh, very easily. That's-that's probably why
it's effective as a water repellent. But, um, you know, when they make, uh, conscious decisions to keep
dumping, and keep __________ 00:10:12 them, um, I believe they're very culpable. And, um, I don't, uh,
I'm not a litigious person by nature, but, uh, I really feel like, uh, they need to be held responsible. Andand they have stepped up and done various things. Like, right now we're getting municipal water, but
oddly enough, um, the Plainfield Township municipal water, um, has like eight to 12 parts per trillion of
PFAS in it because their wells are in this area. They pump, they pump, uh, you know, the big, their big
wells that are supply-supply wells are-are around here. Uh, they've been searching for cleaner wells and
haven't been able to find any. Um, there's a whole group of people that would like, uh, the township to
start using Grand Rapids' city water, which is from Lake Michigan, um, and the township hasn't-hasn't
done that yet. Uh, but they have purchased a very expensive carbon filtration system, which does filter
the PFAS out of the water, but it's, um, it's expensive to have and expensive to maintain, um, and it just
makes me wonder how long they're going to, uh, they're gonna, you know, try to, um, you know, make
lemonade out of lemons, so to speak. [LAUGHTER] Um, so it's-it's very, and, you know, it's just very
concerning. Um, the-the township used to not have a lot of, uh, say over what happened with your, with a
person's well water in our area, um, it was up to the health department. If you wanted to get a well permit,
you went to the health department and they—but now all of a sudden there's some type of unholy
relationship between the health department and the, uh, and the township. And the township is now, uh,
they're, the township is saying that because we're getting municipal water, which is a blessing and a
curse, um, like I said, it's-it's dirtier water than what I'm actually drinking, um, even though it's filtered, um,
but now I have a water bill obviously, or will have a water bill. [LAUGHTER] So, and-and I was pumping,
you know, free water for the longest time. Um, what I was getting at before is that the township is
requiring households to give up their wells or they're gonna to have to cap your well so that you may not
use it. Uh, apparently they don't want the possibility of pumping the PFAS out of the ground, and then into
the, you know, um, you know, the-the __________ 00:12:58, uh, that live in the area and people. So they
just don't want anybody drinking it, even though I've tested clean, um, which-which proposes a problem
for me. I, we-we have a-a property we'd like to be able to __________ 00:13:13 the lot, and I'd hate to
have to pay for municipal water just to irrigate. And then I have a 30,000-gallon swimming pool, so, I don't
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�wanna have to fill my pool with, uh, water that I have to pay for either. So that proposes a, um, a problem,
as well. So, I'm trying to get the township, I'm actively trying to get the township to give me a-a-a waiver
to, uh, keep my well. And I'm aware of people, two houses on Belmont Road, uh, were able to keep their
well, but I don't know the reasons why. Um, one of my neighbor's was able to keep his well because he
has a geothermal heat, so they pump the water out of the ground and then back into the ground, type
thing. I-I'm sure you know how that-that works. But, uh, he'll be able to keep his well also. So, um, this is
a, this is a-a battle that I'm not looking forward to, but, uh, but I think, I think it'll have a good outcome. I
don't know.
Danielle DeVasto: Yeah. Well, you might have touched on this a little bit, but, uh, maybe you can
expand. Um, what concerns do you have, if any, about PFAS contamination moving forward?
Tom Sapkowski: Um, well my concerns are generally health-related, um, maybe not so much about
myself and my wife, but certainly my kids, you know. You would hate to think that you fed your kids
poison for the past 20 years. Do you know what I mean? So, um, and I don't know if our well had been
contaminated previously and has since, um, you know, the aquifer's moving all the time so you don't know
if it was really high at one point in our lives and then got better. Um, but it's-it's doubtful, but I guess it's in
the realm of possibility. So, so health concerns are my, our major, our major concern. Um, I don't know.
Going forward, I would hope that Wolverine is held accountable for people whose-whose deaths have
been caused by-by PFAS or health problems. I'd like to see, um, more of that take place. Um, I don't want
to be one of those people that think that they should be sued into oblivion. You know what I mean?
Because once they quit making shoes and making money, the, you know, the-the well will have long run
dry [LAUGHTER], uh, to use a poor metaphor. Um, they may as well continue to stay in business and sell
shoes. But in-in my view, um, to really be fair and equitable, __________ 00:16:05 they should be, um,
like a for profit company, I think the money they make should be, uh, put in to trying to make up, you
know, pay restitution to people who've suffered from their, uh, contamination. And probably, um, the
people that is closest to the dump site are the ones who really, um, got the most, have had the most
problems. So, um, I don't, I don't worry every day that I'm going to die of something that's related to
PFAS, but, um, you know, as time goes on we are, we are involved in, like I said, uh, several different
health studies, and I just got a letter in the mail to be involved in a third health study, which I will probably
sign up for. But, um, as time goes on, we just seem to learn more and more and more about the effects.
So, um, I guess knowledge is power type thing. Um, Wolverine has paid restitution to, um, at least one
family that I'm aware of. But, um, again, there's like a nondisclosure agreement, so they don't talk about it
very much. But it's good to know that, uh, um, they do assume some culpability. Um, there are various
neighborhoods around here, like Boulder Creek, where they like to use, they-they meaning being, uh,
Wolverine, they wanna use the excuse, "Well, we weren't the only ones who dumped." You know? And I,
and I sort of get that. In the Boulder Creek area, they weren't the only ones who dumped. I believe there
was a brass manufacturing firm that also dumped contaminants in that area. But, um, I'm-I'm, like I said
before, House Street dump is pretty much a smoking gun. It's all their, all their contamination so. Um, on
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�my, when it comes to my, another concern is that this continues as far as, uh, the public interest. I know
they're, um, they're, you know, they're, we're learning more and more and more about PFAS and, uh, you
know, firefighting chemicals around military bases and things like that that have contaminated, uh, various
areas, so, um, you know, we're finding out more all the time, and, uh, I don't know, hopefully this can be
rectified. But, you know, once the contamination's in the aquifer, uh, it'll require another Ice Age
[LAUGHTER] because peo—I have been to public meetings where people say, "Well, what's it gonna
take to remove the contaminants?" And it's like, really? You, it's, you know, in your, you can't imagine
what, you know, what it would require to try and get, uh, that level of contamination out of the aquifer.
One the genie's out of the bottle, there's, you know, there's no putting it back in so.
Danielle DeVasto: Yeah, it does seem like the more we learn, the bigger the problem gets, the more
complicated.
Tom Sapkowski: Yeah, I'm very disheartened to-to realize that, uh, Wolverine at the House Street dump,
in particular because that's the one of the most affects us, um, they as-as their-their Band-Aid to put on
that problem was to, uh, use, um—what do they call it? Uh, some type of environmental remediation
where, uh, they-they wanted the trees to soak up the contamination, and then, um, you know, that it
would, it would lessen, it would lessen the contaminants in the soil. Where, um, to me, you know, from a
geologic __________ 00:19:47 it's-it's sort of like a, it's sort of like a coffee filter where the-the most
highest concentrations of the contamination are at surface level, and I don't believe they've done enough
to remove the super, um, concentrated areas —do you know what I mean?—by lining it and burning it,
handling it, then they dump it. It is lined with clay or something. But, so the, so the, what, the percolation
effect is going on today, you know, and it's been going on and been going on, so, that's ongoing. And,
um, their solutions for the, they, who they really, they-they wanna take a very, uh, minimalistic approach
to repairing that, uh, or remediating that contamination. That's-that's really sad. I-I would've hoped they
would have really, um, taken the ball and run with it, and used this as kind of, uh, an example of how, uh,
environmentally conscious they could be. I think they would get the public on their side if they said, "Hey,
we screwed up, but we're really gonna fix it," instead of these really minor Band-Aid solutions that they've
come up with. And we still haven't even begun. Um, so Wolverine would currently like to just leave these,
um, and put some caps in place so that it minimizes the percolation effect from rain and whatnot, but, um,
again, it's just a, it's just a metaphoric Band-Aid. You know?
Danielle DeVasto: Yeah, and you'd like to see them do something different?
Tom Sapkowski: Well, yeah, really do something more. There are, there are ways to, uh, remediate this
contamination, um, and I know I believe—[CLEARS THROAT] excuse me—Michigan State University is
working on various ways to, um, break the PFAS bonds, um, but I believe it requires temperatures as
high as like 2800 degrees before it, uh, before it breaks down. So, to me that would mean, um, dredging
up the soil, running it, uh, through some type of, uh, an incineration, and then, uh, putting it back. Uh, I
envisioned something on site, you know, where they could have, um, a dredge that would pull it up, run it
through, uh, a big incinerator. I know they-they use these huge incinerators to make, um, cement. They've
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�been using them for-for years and years and years, so I know that they're there. This technology exists,
they just don't want to, uh, go that route. Um, I was involved quite a number of years ago in, um, a
gentleman who made a portable tire grinder, and it was to grind up, um, used tires. And it was portable, it
could be moved from tire pile to tire pile. And, uh, it was a pretty complex piece of machinery because of
what they had to do to separate the, uh, rubber from the steel cords. But, um, I know if they can do that,
they can certainly, um, you know, dredge up these really high areas of concentration. But it's-it has fallen
on deaf ears for the past, you know, uh, four years that I've been involved. They don't wanna hear it. It's
funny, you know, people on the, on the CAG, the Community Advisory Group, they don't want to hear it
either, and it's, it's, and I don't really think it's that complicated. Um, it certainly seems more cost efficient
to me to do that than, uh, truck it out of state, which is what they did with a lot of the material from the, uh,
the tannery downtown-downtown Rockford. They just trucked it out of state. Um, so I don't know.
Danielle DeVasto: Yeah, yeah. Well, before we wrap up, is there anything that you want to go back to
and touch on more, or anything that you didn't, um, get to bring up that you'd like to make sure you bring
up?
Tom Sapkowski: Probably not. I think I hit all the bases, but I'm sure after we're done with this phone call
I will have thought [LAUGHTER] of something. But, um, you know, mainly it's, uh, the-the health issues
and, um, the lack of, uh, concern by Wolverine when it comes to removing the contamination, um, I-I'd
just like to see more done. And, like I said, we're learning more and more about the health effects every
day so, um, you know, my heart goes out to people who've, uh, who've, uh, drank heavily contaminated
water. So, I'm going at it from a lot of different angles, uh, as far, you know, including, um, essentially
being forced to go onto municipal water, which I'm not against. Of course I'm against having a dumb
water bill, but, uh, [LAUGHTER] it does not include sewer obviously either, so you have to keep your, um,
you know, your septic. But, um, I'm really hoping right now that what I'm fighting is to keep my well just for
irrigation, and just to fill my pool. So, that would be very, very helpful if I could have those things. So—
Danielle DeVasto: Well, I wish—
Tom Sapkowski: I hope my—
Danielle DeVasto: —I wish you luck in those upcoming battles. [LAUGHTER]
Tom Sapkowski: —I hope my-my, uh, issues aren't too trivial, but, um, I know there's people that have
real concerns, so I'll continue to be a member of the Community Advisory Group as long as they'll have
me. And, um, I have mixed feelings about being on that because if you talk with some people on the
CAG, they think that we've been very instrumental in all of these things that have been done, um, by
Wolverine and others, um, but I really don't see it. I'm sort of a hands on guy, so, um, I would just like to
be able to see more done rather than just a, they-they tend to pat themselves on the back for things that,
um, that, uh, we have not really been directly involved in. So, you know, it-it is sad because, uh, we have
monthly meetings and, um, you know, to try to keep the community, um, aware of what's going on, and it,
and it's been sad because there's just often little participation, um, just by a select few. And the select few
who, uh, who participate are often, uh, really, um, sort of how I feel, they, um, they're concerned about
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�contamination, but, um, they go off on-on crazy, um, you know, basic rabbit holes. They go down these
rabbit holes that, uh, they're just, uh, __________ 00:06:58, and, um, I don't know. It's it, I would like to
think, you know, work towards at least improving our situation. Um, I know it can probably never be
rectified save for the next Ice Age, but, uh, [LAUGHTER] but, um, I think, you know, I try, I'm trying to be
positive and, um, hope that, you know, make incremental improvements so that's about it.
Danielle DeVasto: Okay, all right, well, thank you, Tom, for taking the time to share your story today.
Tom Sapkowski: You're welcome. Thank you for-for, uh, for doing this.
Danielle DeVasto
Tid: 537-2
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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d9586034ef687a8f4542d4e5066e3440.MP3
fc479f20720fee5873f2b2ec0abdbbc2
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
Living with PFAS Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Devasto, Danielle
Description
An account of the resource
The Living with PFAS interviews were recorded during 2021 to gather the personal stories of individuals impacted by PFAS contamination. PFAS, or per- and polyflourinated substances, are a group of chemicals used to make coatings and products resistant to heat, oil, stains, grease, and water. These products include clothing, furniture, adhesives, food packaging, and heat-resistant non-stick cooking surfaces. They are considered "forever chemicals" in that they do not break down in the environment, can move through soils and contaminate drinking water sources, and they build up in fish, wildlife, and in the human body. Studies have shown that exposure to large amounts of PFAS may affect growth and development, reproduction, thyroid function, the immune system, and may injure the liver. More research is needed to assess the full health effects of exposure to PFAS.
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2021
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Living with PFAS (project)
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
In copyright
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Personal narrative
PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals)
Groundwater--Pollution
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
DC-11
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
audio/mp3
Type
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Motion Picture
Text
Sound
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context
PFAS0026
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Sapkowski, Tom
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2021-09-02
Title
A name given to the resource
Tom Sapkowski, 2021 (Interview audio and transcript)
Description
An account of the resource
Tom Sapkowski grew up on the west side of Grand Rapids, Michigan and currently lives in nearby Belmont. After learning of PFAS contamination through the media, Tom paid to have his well water tested. It was found to have low levels. However, his municipality is requiring households to give up their wells and he is actively trying to keep his.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
DeVasto, Danielle (interviewer)
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Personal narrative
PFAs (Perfluorinated chemicals)
Groundwater--Pollution
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
Living with PFAS (project)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Sound
Text
Format
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audio/mp3
application/pdf
Language
A language of the resource
eng