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Grand Valley State University
All American Girls Professional Baseball League
Veterans History Project
Interviewee’s Name: Toni Palermo
Length of Interview: (01:00:14)
Interviewed by: Gordon Olson GVSU Veterans History Project, September 26, 2009,
Milwaukee, WI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, September 7, 2010
Interviewer: “Let’s start with some easy stuff, just some background, tell me a little
bit about your family and where you grew up before professional baseball?”
Yes, I grew up in Forest Park, Illinois and my parents were from Italy and I spoke no
English when I went to school, so it took some doing. I had a lot of speech practice with
speech in college to eradicate all the Italian mispronunciations and accent, but yes our
family background was very poor and the other thing that I thought was very
interesting—I never had to get permission from my parents to play ball. Today you
almost have to have the legal system supporting you, so I thought that was quite
interesting.
Interviewer: “Did you play ball as a child?” 1:11
Yes,
Interviewer: “With brothers and sisters?”
No, I just played with the boys all the time; there were no you know. In Forest Park there
was a “Parishey Bloomers Girls” professional softball team and they had a farm team and
when I was, I think, ten years old my physical education teacher, who was a “Parishey
Bloomer Girl” professional, retired, told me to try out for their farm team and then to
eventually be on their team and I did and I made it. I was so small and everything that
they had a special uniform for me. The others were black and white and they had a blue
and gold thing that they could find to fit me, but I was strong and mighty, very strong.
Small, but mighty. 1:58
Interviewer: “You looked more like their mascot than one of their players.”
I know it, the glove was bigger than I was.
Interviewer: “Now Parishey, was that a company?”
He owned a construction company and then he owned the professional team. They were
thee professional team, they were the champions of all champions.
Interviewer: “To be selected that young to be trained for that.”
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�I practiced, I shagged balls, I was out there all the time and it’s just I learned the game
between being with the boys and the Parishey Bloomer girls, I learned the game and I
was very fast, which was nice, so that was a big help too. I could shag more than the
others 2:43
Interviewer: “As they say, and it’s said over and over in all levels of baseball or
other sports, “you can’t teach speed”. If you’re fast--”
You can work on it and improve it, yeah I agree.
Interviewer: “It’s a great asset. How did you learn about, how did you get involved
with the professional baseball league?”
Well, they were scouting and they saw me play, I think when I was eleven, and they came
up and asked me to go to Cuba to do spring training. I really thought they had—I just
thought that they weren’t for real, truly. I was so young and I thought, “why would they
want me to go to Cuba?” And to think that I was good enough. I knew I loved it, but I
had no concept if I was good, bad or different, I just loved the game. They said they
would get tutors for me and this, that and the other and that’s where “Lefty” came from, I
didn’t know if you know Alvarez, Lefty Alvarez and Maita, they all came from Cuba.
3:50 I opt not to do it, I don’t know, just because I didn’t believe it and it would have
been nice to go and I would have found out that I actually belonged there too.
Interviewer: “But they kept watching you.”
They kept pursuing me and then Mr. Parishey pursued me when I was thirteen, so I was
with them before that in what they called the farm team and then he signed me when I
was thirteen, then the league got in touch with me and I got excited about it and on my
own at age fourteen, I can’t believe I did this, got off, got onto the El, got off at Canal
Street, got on that train, went to South Bend, Indiana, nobody caring anything or babying
anybody, got there and then found the ball park you know and I can’t—I think back and
then I went to New York and met the team in New York on the flight, got on the plane
and I look back at all that and I don’t know how I had courage and not been afraid. 4:53
You had a goal and I guess my goal was to get to the team and that took care of all the
problems.
Interviewer: “ You had to have some trust in where you were going and the people
all around that you were going to make it ok?”
Yeah, they gave the directions, here’s how you get there and I just used my brain and on I
went.
Interviewer: “Did you have a contract at that point?”
Not yet, but I—when I went to South Bend, that was a training, and then when I went to,
I think I must have signed the contract wither just before or when I got to New York.
5:27
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�Interviewer: “When you signed there because, there are a couple of things here that
are very interesting. The fact that you’re fourteen years old and your parents knew
you were doing this.”
Yes, but I never asked permission.
Interviewer: “You just took off?”
No, I think I just said that they wanted me to play and I was going to go. It wasn’t like
today you know. It’s so legalistic today, but yeah, and I think that they were happy that I
was happy and of course I really sent all my money back home, so I think that made them
happy after the fact. 6:06
Interviewer: “How many brothers and sisters in your family?”
I had one sister.
Interviewer: “Before we abandon this line, what did your father—what was the line
of work?”
He was a salesman and my mother a stay at home, but he taught collage classes and that,
he had a university degree, but he never questioned, he just—he saw that I was skilled
and we were poor and he bought me a bike because I said I wanted a bike so I could go
riding with the boys, so he bought me a boys bike and things like that. He just kind of
supported what I wanted and must have thought I had some kind of skill or talent. 6:51
Interviewer: “And he had confidence that you would find your way to south Bend.”
I don’t think that even bothered them and I think because I wasn’t afraid.
Interviewer: “What do you recall about the tryout and the training that you did
there?”
Oh, I loved it, just loved it and again I wasn’t apprehensive. I had confidence and I guess
I didn’t realize that they were going to test me out and decide whether to take me or not.
I just assumed that I was in. You know, I went there, they were going to take me, and it
wasn’t like a question, so I just loved it and they gave tips. For a while there I was being
hit all the time, hit in the arm by the pitches and one time I lost my temper and I threw the
bat and angry that they’re just killing me and then the coach came up and said, “be angry
with yourself, you’re the one stepping into the ball”, he said, “you’re supposed to avoid
the pitch”. 7:49 He said, “you’re running right into the ball”, and he told me that you
have to hit ahead because if you wait for that pitch and it’s curving it’s going to hit you
every time. He said, “I don’t want to see that anger at all again or that temper or
whatever it was, you find a way of keeping out of the way of the ball”. That was a good
lesson learned.
Interviewer: “How many were there at this tryout? It was a tryout and you just
didn’t know it.”
It was packed all over the field and I don’t recall how many.
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�Interviewer: “A lot.”
Yes, and I know we were at Wrigley Field also. For whatever reason, I remember either
working out or trying out there a lot in that Chicago area. 8:35
Interviewer: “Ultimately you’re selected?”
Yes
Interviewer: “At this point it’s not to play in the all American Girls League. They
had another—they had a barnstorming team.”
Yes, that’s correct.
Interviewer: “Tell me about that.”
That was something else and I didn’t know the difference anyhow whatever it was. It
was called the touring team and we were to be the P.R. people to like introducing it all
over the United States and also kind of finding talent, so in every state that we played
there were tryouts. And that’s how Sue Kidd got in, I don’t know if she’s been
interviewed, but she was picked up in Arkansas and the caliber—there were a lot of
players who had been in the leagues and a few of the teams had broken up or they
weren’t making it financially, so they then came on the touring teams, so we had these
veterans with us and ourselves. We had--Max Carey came out and he showed me how to
initiate a double play like everybody to this day if I were out in the field people are like in
awe and it’s beautiful, how to time it, hit the corner of the bad and get off, and people
would just awe you know. 9:50 That all came from Max Carey and how to—at first,
you know the people who field the grounders, kids are fielding them down here and they
don’t reach out and get them, and he said to all of us, “none of you know how to field a
grounder”, and evidently we were all doing that and I took offense to that inside and
thought, “uh, I’m playing all this time and he’s telling me I don’t know how to field a
grounder”, and I never committed errors, but I took it to heart and it made sense to reach
out, and I use to say, “reach out and touch someone”, you know, reach out and get it.
Then you get to the ball earlier and you have more time to get them and so his help was
very helpful and you know, batting, bunting, we practiced in the sand, sliding in the sand,
you know sliding in the sand. They would time our bat swing, so you’re up there and
they had a flashlight, and they would flash the light and you would swing and the timing
of that, so everybody after the league ended, I would play in the summer leagues in
Madison, they would say, “oh you have the fastest swing, the fastest swing”, and I
thought that all came from the coaching and the training. 11:00
Interviewer: “You’re talking of things that youngsters playing and getting to the
majors too quick don’t know. They talk about young people with what they call the
long swing and it’s the opposite of what you’re describing. It’s a big looping swing
and a good pitcher will take advantage of it, but a short quick swing is not nearly as
easy to get the ball past.”
Yes, and it’s extending, It’s not just a little thing like this, you really are extending, but it
did the job because, see you had more time to adjust the pitches too. If you had a quick
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�swing, it’s a curve you can reach out, if it’s a fastball you’re not going to be that late on
it, where the slower swing people were caught all the time. 11:46 It was an advantage
and we had all these coaches and managers that really taught—if you were coachable,
and throughout my life I’ve been coachable, and that’s the key. I really love learning.
Interviewer: “It’s about attitude.”
Yes, attitude.
Interviewer: “Now, this is—you were obviously very naturally skilled and what
you’re talking about it the first time you were really formally taught the game, so
you spent how many years with the barnstorming team?”
Two, Two years with the barnstorming team. The interesting thing too is being the P.R.
people, every state we had all these parades and we would be on the fire trucks, we would
be in the airplanes, we were all over and they would have big bands and we would go
into the town. 12:45 We also played Yankee Stadium and Ebbets Field, those two places
and I was in the dugout with Phil “Scooter” Rizzuto and he let me use his glove and we
were on theirs and then the Eagles, no not the Eagles, the Phillies, I think they were
called the Phillies, Connie Mack’s team, they were in the other dugout and so we had a
lot of plus opportunities.
Interviewer: “Who were your opponents?”
Each other, we had—it was Chicago Colleens and Springfield Sallies and there was a
bonus, whoever won at the end, the most games, got a higher percentage of the money. It
was a big incentive. We played against each other and then we rode on the bus together,
played against each other and we were tough against each other, but we really respected
each other after the fact. 13:34
Interviewer: “Did they come out pretty even at the end of the year?”
Yes, The first we won, I was a Chicago Colleen, then the next year I came back as a
Chicago Colleen and the teams were unbalanced, we were winning too much, so the
coach came up to me and said, “Toni, I don’t want to spoil your game or your rhythm and
you’re doing so well, but we need to put you on the other team, on the Springfield
Sallyies, so that we can balance it better”. It was just too lopsided, so I agreed to it and
It’s interesting because the shortstop on the other team, who I thought was excellent, she
had long arms and she could—I thought to myself, I had to run ten steps to her one and
she had a beautiful throwing arm, so it was interesting in my mind I thought, “why
would—what difference does it make when she’s so good?” I didn’t think that I was that
much better, but I got to thinking afterwards, “I have an attitude and a spirit that she
didn’t have”. We may have been comparable in skill, I was faster and sometimes when
you have these long—but she was excellent, and I got to thinking that I was inspired
more because I would just dive for every ball and I had kind of an energy and she was
laid back kind of from the south you know. 14:58 That was my assessment because I
couldn’t reconcile why I was going to make a difference and it did make a difference. I
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�think the team got together and we won. We won by two games at the end. Came from
way back behind and it was nice, it was nice.
Interviewer: “Very satisfying. Did they take then some players from each year
from the barnstorming teams up to the--?”
Yes, and even during this. They were going to take me the first year and then just as I
was about to leave they decided they—not thinking age, decided, “We’ll give her another
year”, but at that time, I stole the most bases and I had the highest on base batting
average, says the coach to me you know, and I was leadoff batter, so I don’t know, it
would have been interesting to see how I would have kind of compared when I got there.
15:55 Were they stronger women because they were they older and more experience?
Twice I was supposed to go up and twice it was rescinded and I think basically it was
they wanted to give me more age time.
Interviewer: “After two years you’re only sixteen or seventeen years old.”
Yes, fourteen, fifteen, just going on sixteen, yeah.
Interviewer: “Just reaching the point where—“
It’s interesting because they knew I was going to steal and I got to steal every time I got
on and I got on a lot because I had a very good eye, so I seldom struck out and I hit with
authority. It seemed like when I hit it was a bullet. They weren’t big home runs, but I hit
really strong, so they had a hard time handling my ball and then I was fast, so the steal
and I said to the coach, “they’re all waiting for me”. I was so tired of sliding and you
know they had lye on the bases and lye on the base and I was just raw all the time, hook
sliding, hook sliding, and he said, “never mind, never mind”, and the other thing is when
I got on first, if there was a hit and run, I had better get to third. 17:03 That was a given,
you just don’t stop you just swish and get all the way to third, so there were challenges,
you know it was exciting, but heart throbbing.
Interviewer: “It sound like you had a coach who was he?”
At that time I think it was Lenny, Lenny Lesnick and then Mitch, Mitch was the second
year.
Interviewer: “It sounds like these were guys whose idea was to take the game to the
opposition to push them all the time.”
Yeah, you had--a lot with the mind, when you were--say a runner on first, what do you do
when the runners on first? Before the ball’s even pitched, what are you saying to
yourself? Well, you had to say to yourself, “well, if it’s a fast runner on first, you have to
know your pitcher, outside, inside, whatever they normally pitch, so you keep that in
mind. If that’s a fast runner, “will there be a double play?” You have to instinctively
prepare that if it’s a ball hit fast to you, you have a chance, if it’s a slow roller, you’re not
going to get her at second, if she’s a slow runner then you have more options. 18:11
That went through my mind every pitch. I don’t know if the kids do that today, I don’t
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�know if ball players do that. You had to think every pitch and you had to know your
pitcher. I remember one of the older players and she said, “I can’t get over”, and I was
telling her where to be on the field, over there, over there, move in, move out and I never
thought that I was a little shrimp bossing anybody around or whatever, it just—I was in
the game and I would see she was not playing where she should have been and positioned
and I would just say—and one time she came over and said, “I can’t get over, how do you
know where they’re going to hit?” It was the studying of the pitchers, some pitchers
pitch outside a lot, so then obviously they’re not going to zing them right to you, they’re
going to skew away from you, so all those things were on my brain and age fourteen and
fifteen. 19:05 Well, I’m grateful that God endowed me with a great mind, but you
know, it was exciting.
Interviewer: “I think I’m getting a clue as to why they moved you to the other team.
It had to do, not only with your ability, but what you were going to bring to the
other player. You’re right a little bit of a spark plug, but also you were going to set
an example.”
The coach, Mitch, he said, “Toni came here to play ball”, so evidently, I have a feeling,
there were a few slacking a little just because he said, “she’s out there and she came to
play ball, and what about the rest of you?” I t was quite a challenge. 19:46
Interviewer: “Once again, attitude. You mentioned a couple of the managers, any
other coaches or managers that come to mind that you remember yet?”
Yeah, our chaperones were really good, yeah and contrary to the movie, you know how
they went out drinking and this and that, we were so protected. I don’t know if anybody
went out drinking and I don’t know how they could have, but the example—you had to
be setting an example, set an example, you’re out here introducing baseball to people and
they have never seen women play and it’s very important our image to them. We had to
be ladylike, always in the skirts even though you finish the game and shower and always
with the skirts though hardly anyone would see us that hour of the night you know.
Everything was important as to how we presented and their image of women in sports or
women in baseball. 20:42
Interviewer: “I know that in some cases there were actually classes or a bit of
training for the girls on how to comport themselves, even up to how to fix their hair
and everything else. Did you encounter any of that?”
No, I’m glad—that would have been something, but I think I would have gone with the
flow too and would have been part of it. We had to have our hair a little longer, now
mine was never long, but they didn’t want us looking masculine. Everything was
important to look feminine and still be ball players.
Interviewer: “Not always easy.”
Once I was out there, who thought of it right? With the little skirt, sliding into the bases,
skirts flying up, it must have been quite exciting.
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�Interviewer: “It sold tickets. Now, I keep thinking of that particular image, sliding
into the bases. Now, what did those uniforms look like? You had shorts on
underneath and then a skirt, but there was bare skin and the fields you were playing
on sometimes had some pebbles and things?” 21:50
Oh yeah, except when we toured and played in the stadiums, which was really nice, we
played in the minor league stadiums that was good, but yeah, other places there were
pebbles and you really--it’s interesting, you really adjust to the ground like a golfer does.
Interviewer: “Go out and groom your area a little bit if there’s stones out there, get
them out of there.”
Yeah, and you know they said, “there’s no crying in baseball”, but I have to say, we
wouldn’t have thought to cry. I never saw a woman cry there ever, but I’m going to tell
you, those strawberries and reopening them, because I was on base every night, that was
not an easy thing, but it’s interesting, you didn’t think of it until after you slid and
“oww”, you could hardly get up, but you took it , you toughened. 22:46 In fact, when I
had my knee surgery five weeks ago the doctor said, “you are really tough Toni, you are
tough”, and it all carries through from all that time of being—taking pain and learning to
take pain, you’re not born taking it. 23:00 Being a strong person and adversity.
Interviewer: “You were athletes and if your teammates are dealing with pain, you
better too.”
There was no complaining, moaning, groaning, and no gossiping. For women, think of
all those women together, it could be men too, they could be talkers too, but when I think
of it, with the conditions, no air conditioning, you’re on the bus sweltering, clothes
hanging in your face drying out, and trying to sleep on the bus, taking turns using one
another’s laps as head rests, feet up in the air and then switching off and not being
crabby, that’s amazing, and we would play at night, games over, shower, back into the
bus all dressed, back into the bus and then we would travel all night, get up at eight.
24:01 Probably come in about 2:00 or 3:00 o’clock in the morning and get up at 8:00 and
we were practicing on the field until noon. And practicing, running the bases, let me tell
you, they stood on the base path, you know were you make the cut, well, God help you if
you—they were there and they weren’t going to move and you learned to make that cut.
Interviewer: “Hit the inside of the base and cross over.”
That’s right, and they stood there, they stood there protecting themselves, but you would
get the worst end of it and that was all before the game. You did that until noon and then
we had a little respite time, get dressed and off to the game and when we had double
headers it was nice because you had an extra night to stay, you know to stay. We
traveled sometimes—the bus all the time and then trains. We went to Canada that was by
train then back to the U.S. We were in thirty-three states in the summer the whole time
and then I would go off to high school and come back. 25:03
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�Interviewer: ‘Very few days off I would think.”
Only when it rained, it was wonderful in Florida; it loves to rain, and pour, pour, pour
then we would have that day off. It was nice because you had a little rest.
Interviewer: “Did you ever play, like a local team or even a men’s team as an
exhibition?”
No, I think they were trying to do a men’s team, but I don’t think—they wouldn’t have
women’s teams at that level, so it would be men, but that seemed to fall through. 25:45
Interviewer: “No men’s team wanted to get beat.”
That could be, yeah.
Interviewer: “How about some of the opposition, are there specific players that
stand out that you either respected or didn’t like in some cases for their attitude
toward the game?”
I think the interesting thing is , I was, I don’t know about the others, I was so involved in
the game that I didn’t have a problem—I didn’t see like imperfections or if they didn’t
have a good attitude or this, that, or the other thing, because on my team they seemed
to—when the coach said to them, ”Toni’s here to play ball and she has a great attitude”, I
didn’t spot them as not having a good attitude and I think he was thinking at a deeper
level, they didn’t have that extra that you need to win. There was this one that I didn’t
like and I dearly love today, but I think I was a jealous little kid, I truly do, and it wasn’t
anything to do with the game itself, she just was more outspoken and kind of so self
assured and I thought she was cocky and you know, you’re raised to be kind of simple
and humble and I just didn’t like that in her. 27:02 She reminded me one time and she
said, “you got mad at me”. I use to set her hair, I use to set everybody’s hair, I was like a
little cosmetologist, cut hair and set them, I just taught myself and one time I was so
angry with her I wouldn’t set her hair and she told me that, reminded me.
Interviewer: “I think I know who that was.”
You’d like her. She’s brilliant and really, I look back and I know it was a jealousy of—
she was do self assured and what I thought was cocky was not and to this day she’s
creative and out there doing things.
Interviewer: “Did you ever set her hair again?”
Oh yes, the day after, the day after, but I don’t know if there were people that didn’t like
one another because you didn’t feel it in tensions or the like. 27:54 More respect and
very close to one another, it’s amazing on both teams.
Interviewer: “How about the fans, what’s your recollection of the fans?”
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�Oh, they were wonderful, they were wonderful, they were concerned sometimes—there
was a boy that liked me and he followed to different towns. Oh my little heart, and he
held my hand one time and then the bus driver said, “you better watch your step Toni the
ones that are here and fly out, that are here today and then gone tomorrow”, and I didn’t
know what he was talking about. I was so innocent and I was just ignorant of anything
and I was just so flattered that he liked me. They kind of had to watch that because you
know we were young and they were followers of that. I just remember that incident and
he kind of followed, followed, followed and then would write to the hotel and things like
that. 28:57 But he was a nice kid and he wasn’t aggressive, but I think of this of our bus
driver, I was so lean and tiny and he would say, “tiny little waistline you have there Toni,
tiny little waistline”, and I often think today Oh Harold you should see me now. It’s
better now, but when I was injured I—you do gain once in a while.
Interviewer: “They do follow the game and they do follow the players and they do
want to get close to the players.”
Yeah, the fans really, really liked us and I think they were in awe because before the
game they would announce us and our ages and I think it just kind of floored them you
know that most of us—like half were—I was probably—two of us were fourteen I think
and the rest were older, but it was still relatively young if they were up to twenty and then
the older ball players that had been in the league and back and forth were older, twentyfive or whatever. 30:00 The fans were impressed and, I think, very, very floored that we
were as good as we were. We were very tough out there, I mean cleats and all, I mean
the game was played tough. I think they saw that and we didn’t throw like little girls or
whatever they say, in fact they filmed my throw at the University of Wisconsin and I had
one of the fastest women’s throw and that’s after the league. I still have that little film.
Interviewer: “I have to tell you, I played on a co-ed team at one point and one of the
best shortstops I ever played with was a young woman an incredible thrower and
exceptionally good fielder, so you learn to respect after you watch and see how well
they can play and that’s what your fans were seeing as well.” 30:50
Yeah, they did and I think they were just floored. They came out of curiosity and they
went away—we had just a lot of positive feedback in the newspapers and then more fans
came, they seemed to tell other towns, we had big crowds and they came.
Interviewer: “Did you have thousands?”
I’m not sure, I just know it was filled, so I don’t know what the capacity was and I
noticed to in the south, I was so ignorant, I grew up with a father who had such equal
respect for people and so we had—when my mother died we had a woman named
Queenie and she took care of us and we loved her, we loved her like our own mother and
she was African, so I’m in the south now and I went and sat, god forbid, on the bus I
don’t remember if they sat in the back, probably, and I went to sit in the back.
Immediately the bus driver stops the bus and said, “you have to come up here”, and I
didn’t. I did not budge, I just thought it was not right in my heart and finally he just
10
�moved the bus and I sat there and moved on. 32:01 That bothered me and the other
thing that bothered me, and I can see how prejudice is learned, the drinking fountains—
there was one for the whites and one for the and I don’t know if at that time they were
called Negroes, but it made you think that they had some disease or something and that
really bothered me because it was like teaching something that was very foreign to me, so
that’s what I noticed in the south. I also notice that we had no black players either.
Interviewer: “I was going to ask you about that?”
I didn’t see the tryouts, but obviously there were some excellent players around and I
think it was just not open.
Interviewer: “As far as I know the league never had any African American women
players. It’s interesting to me because this is just at the time that Jackie Robinson is
breaking the major league color line for the first time.” 32.57
He came right after—
Interviewer: “forty-seven he came.”
Yeah ok and I was in forty-nine, all right. Yeah see, that should have helped, but not
women probably and it wasn’t easy for him, you read those stories and you know,
nobody liking him and the fans, but that hit me, that really struck me. If you come from
the north and I was raised so respectful, I just had so much love in my heart, I went to a
school that was all white, Negro’s weren’t allowed in the grade school, but in my high
school there were. I remember giving a picture, my picture, to one of the black men and
oh, the repercussion, all my friends would come up to me and say, ”do you realize he’s
going to show it to all his friends and they’re going to thing you’re boy friend and girl
friend”, and blah, blah blah, so those things were eye openers and I’m glad that I had my
positive experience because maybe I stood for something in the south at that one bus
thing and once in the hotel too. 34:10 I remember taking some of my money and giving
money to the maid that was there because I appreciated what she did and those things
bothered me.
Interviewer: “It was a time when the United States was going through a transition
and it was not going to be an easy one we know that and we’re still grappling with
the issue, quite frankly to this day.”
Yeah, yeah
Interviewer: “Two years in the instructional league we’ll call it, or better the
barnstorming.”
No, no, instructional in a sense that they had that throughout the league. No, I think we
were sent there on a mission, a P.R. promotion, introducing it and they were selective. It
wasn’t just little nobodies, it was the cream of the crop of players and you had to be
chosen for that. The ones from the league, where they disbanded and that, they brought
special people there that would be an example and were excellent players, so it wasn’t
11
�minor. 35:10 I think we could have played against anybody in the leagues at south and
given them a run for their money.
Interviewer: “You never got a chance to play against any of the other teams?”
No, no
Interviewer: “That would have been fun. Two years and you decided--at this time
you’re just about ready to graduate from high school?”
Yes, then Parishey Bloomer Girls were knocking on the door again, so I went to play
with them and then I was on several professional softball teams I remember at the time. I
don’t know if one was named the Chicks or what, but they were trying to build, they were
trying to build their teams, so they asked Mr. Parishey if I could go on loan because they
needed to build more players, so I did that and then I was called, South Bend wanted me,
I think to play with South Bend. I think it was a team that had won one of the
championships and I don’t know if it was the South Bend Blue Sox or whatever, but it
was in South Bend. 36:13 At the time, I went for spring training and I was going at it
and I was going to enter the convent that September.
Interviewer: “You had made that decision already?”
Oh yeah, I had made that decision two years prior to that, but I was wanting to help my
father financially and do things, so I waited and did my thing and anyhow, while I was
playing out there it was like a haunting feeling that if I stayed I was not going to enter
because I had such a love for that game. All of a sudden out of the clear blue sky, I was
tormented, I was tortured there, I decided that I had to go home because if I stayed I
never would have left baseball. I didn’t know it was on its way out in the next two years
after that or one year really. I feel I signed a contract, but I at least was close or had
signed it and informed them that I had to go because I was afraid I would not enter the
convent and I made a commitment and that’s one thing I think I learned young on, when
you’re in sports, if you’re truly involved and committed, your word is your bond. 37:21
You don’t mess around, if you say you’re going to do something you do it. I said, “I’m
doing it and I felt I needed to keep my word and I didn’t think I could if I stayed on
because my heart was—I ate, slept and drank baseball.
Interviewer: “You had two loves and they weren’t compatible.”
Yeah, they wouldn’t have been at that time, so then I entered the convent.
Interviewer: “Where?”
Right in Milwaukee, St. Joseph’s Convent and I’m in fifty-five years now believe it or
not.
Interviewer: “And along the way you picked up additional education, additional
degrees.”
12
�I got a degree from Alverno College in English, history, math and education, minor with
math; they kind of mixed that in. That arose out of need, I was supposed to be a high
school teacher, so that was the English, history, and math. 38.13 Then there was a
shortage of elementary, first grade, so they sent me back to get the educational for
primary and I was sent to first grade instead of high school and spent six years doing that.
Then I went on, I wanted to do physical ed and finally they allowed me to do summer
school physical ed. I was going to get a doctorate in physical ed and back tracked on that
and completed a masters in that and then completed a doctorate in six departments and
meanwhile I got the masters, the doctorate and another masters and got all three almost
simultaneously. 38:57 That comes too in baseball, not only did I have intelligence, but I
had—they said they couldn’t keep up with my energy, so you really had work ethic, so I
completed three things, I did the two masters, I did my prelims for my PhD, and three
chapters, all kind of together and the professor said I had too much energy and too much
blah, blah, or something for them to keep up with me, but they were happy to have me.
39:25 From there I completed a masters in psychiatric social work and mental health and
ended up with three masters, the doctorate, the bachelors, and I could have had four
masters, but I decided not to do it because If I had to take another test it would have been
comps again, but I still might do that one. What I really want to do is study law and help
the cause, save the poor.
Interviewer: “I have a feeling you’ll do it.” 39:52
Yeah, I will
Interviewer: “Now, for you’re your PhD you went to the University of Wisconsin?”
Yes, the three masters and the PhD all from Wisconsin and I also taught there. I taught
there for four years.
Interviewer: “Did you—what was your involvement in sports during this time? Did
you stay involved in some way, coaching or playing at some point?”
Yes, in Madison they had all these leagues and I was in the league called the Major
Major, so I played in that and what was interesting, there were two all American
professional ball players that had been observing and they had to choose, they had to
choose one player for recognition and I forgot, it was an all Madison bla, bla, bla and it
was quite an honor and these two, Rusty was one of their names, and they chose me,
which was interesting because they didn’t know I had played. 40:51 They saw my
playing ability and then was honored and the Mayor was there and all the politicians
played, we had two teams, and I got to play out there and was helping them with how to
bat, some of them. Those things happened in Madison and I played every year and then I
was in a serious car accident and I was a passenger. While rehabbing, for three years my
back was in a brace and I had no use of this right leg, all of a sudden this tennis coach
from China came up to me and said, “Toni, Toni, I teach you tennis”, and I said, “Oh,
Mr. Chung”, and I was still in my brace you know, “I can’t” and he said, “Oh, no, no, no,
I teach you tennis”, and I picked it up and I was so good at it that—I tried taking
beginning classes and they kept putting me in advanced classes and what it was, was my
hand eye coordination and I was very fast. 41:43 I just could outrun anything.
13
�Technically I didn’t think I was that great, but I would enter all kinds of tournaments and
I would end up winning some of them, I mean I beat some number one people that were
so skilled and so beautiful, they would hit the ball and pose and while they’re posing I’m
running like some maniac hacking away keeping the ball in play. Anyhow, I got to love
tennis and then I worked so hard at it and ended up being ranked in the state, 2nd in
singles, 2nd in doubles, and 3rd in singles also, thought the years. Then I played national
tennis tournaments and loved it, loved it, loved it and I never got ranked nationally
because, even like Billie Jean King the retired pros enter that, so I played some of the
pros that had been at Wimbledon and that and I can still see myself, I said, “Toni you
have the reputation, your job is to wait, they would always say “good wheels, good
wheels Toni”, your job is to be the retriever, the Golden Retriever, for all the balls they
hit and to build them up”, anyhow they knew I was out there. 42:57
Interviewer: “If there’s anything another player hates, it’s the opponent that won’t
give up.”
That’s right, that’s true and one time the man observing and he said, my deportment was
exemplary, he said anyone else would have run off the tennis court. I playing the number
one seed and said, “you would have thought she was losing”, my attitude was so—I mean
I was out there and if she lost a point to me, I hardly won a point I kid you not, if she lost
a point she was devastated and here I was this happy little thing—people walking by,
they thought I was winning half the time and here—I learned something, she was so
miserable after the thing was over I said, “maybe you ought to think about not playing
tennis for a while”, because she was just an unhappy person. Yeah, people couldn’t tell if
I was winning or losing, but I never gave up. 43:55
Interviewer: “While you’re doing all this, getting your degrees, continuing to play
softball, playing other sports, people didn’t know that you had been a professional
baseball player at one point. Was it the movie that changed the recognition?”
It was after the movie.
Interviewer: “the movie we’re talking about is “A League of Their Own”.”
“A League of Their Own”, and I did not see the movie until in the year 2000. I didn’t
even know it existed. Like you said, “what had I done?” I was busy like really teaching
a lot of children, helping anywhere I could help, in all kinds of things, sports, everything
and also, did a lot with the poor, conducted workshops all over the country, I was flying
all over the place giving talks and this and that, so I didn’t keep up with watching TV or
anything and one day I’m watching this TV and I see this movie and I hear them singing
our song and I thought, “my God that’s our group”, and I recognized some of the people,
our players, at the end who were in the movie. 44:58 That was my first inkling of it and
that was like in 2000 and they hadn’t found me, they didn’t know where I was.
Interviewer: “Your name was different, you were a Sister.”
14
�Yes, Toni Ann Palermo and Sister—I think those who knew I entered probably thought
that I could never come out and you know, come to anything and that I was gone forever
Interviewer: “Incarceration”
Yeah, so that first experience was, I think it might be seven years now that I was really
found, found, but I forgot, was there a part of a question that I missed?
Interviewer: “I’m asking, and you’re talking about it, that the movie end up
changing your life thereafter. Once you were found.”
Yes, all of a sudden one time on television, I saw this Mary O’Meara. Mary O’Meara
was Mary Froning, who was a ball player on the, I think, the Blue Sox, a South Bend
team, and she was in Madison and I was in Madison. 45.14 I played on her co-ed team
and she had about seven or eight children, so that comprised her co-ed team, plus Mary,
plus myself. I think there were nine or ten plus her husband and that was the team. I
recognized her in tournaments, she was not on the same team I was on, in fact she was in
a lower league. I don’t know how she managed to be down there, but she was in a lower
league. We played against her and I recognized how smart she was out there and we just
took to each other, but never, never sharing that we had played, so I played on her co-ed
team, I taught her some tennis, she got involved in tennis and years go by. One day at
church she sees me, Rockford was having a mini-reunion, she seed me and said,” Toni
have you ever played professional ball?” I said, “yes”, and she said, “well, they’re
looking for you”, and I said, “oh”. All those years we knew each other and she was
going to all these reunions and never said a word because she didn’t connect it. 47:04
Interviewer: “Never put it all together.”
Excuse me for scratching my nose, but that’s how and once they found me—so that’s
how and I’m so grateful to be here with you and this beautiful group and have this
privilege.
Interviewer: “You get, I’m sure you get invitations now to speak?”
Yeah
Interviewer: “And a chance to teach?”
Yes, yes and Jackie Baumgart and I were just honored at Alverno College because she
graduated from Alverno and I graduated from Alverno and we were both in A League of
Their Own or The American Girls Professional League and it was a sports orientation or
fundraiser and we were honored and it was just about maybe a month ago or two months
ago.
Interviewer: “Do you get requests for autographs or stuff in the mail?”
Oh, signing all the time, yes a lot. People are in awe, which it really touches you because
it’s I don’t know, I’m humbled by it. I’m really humbled by it because it touches my
heart that they think enough to want our autographs at something that we love so and we
15
�were privileged to do. 48:09 I grew up where women didn’t have the opportunities.
However, in Forest Park, Chicago we had more opportunities than all these other states.
Wisconsin was way behind, so I never felt the stigma that I was a girl and couldn’t do
this and couldn’t do that. I was at every sport possible and anything I did I always
succeeded. Swimming, number three in the state and half drowning some of the time you
know, I was in everything and that’s because we had no limitations set on us and we were
privileged, but other places were not. 48:52
Interviewer: “Women had a lot of limitations, that’s for sure. As you look now
from the time you began as a professional athlete and you have a chance now to see
the changes that have gone on in sports and in women professional athletes, do have
some thoughts that you would like to share with us on what’s happened and where
we are today?”
Yeah, I’m in awe at the quality, the quality of, say in all sports, with the women. In awe
with it, because when I came up to Wisconsin I was shocked at the level, it was so bad. I
would go to the women’s basketball and it was so bad. I played before the Harlem Globe
Trotters, that’s how good we were. We had the same teams that were during the summer,
we played basketball and men’s rules at that time was, and girls rules were half court, and
we played men’s rules and we played in front of all these crowds before the Harlem
Globe Trotters. 49:57
Interviewer: “So you were a traveling basketball team?”
Yeah, and we were quality you know, nothing bad. But I came up here and I would go to
the games and I could hardly take it, it was bad, they shot poorly, they didn’t have that
technique, nothing was there, and I have watched them through the years. I am in awe; I
mean they are skilled today. I came up in 1970 and then 1970 to 1980 it wasn’t good and
yet I could see them improving, improving and I see the volleyball the same, the
basketball, softball, it is outstanding, I mean they are excellent and tough. I watch all the
time, I watch all the top teams, Tennessee and all and UConn and the women, the level
you know and I am really—I—they wouldn’t be there, something was lifted for them you
know. 50:56
Interviewer: “I’m going to ask you the question I’ve asked others and you’re kind
of leading into it, it is this. At the time, did you have an awareness that you were
pioneering as a feminist in a sense, or a female athlete and now that you have a
chance to look back, do you see that you were?”
I don’t know how many thought that because we were put into it, we were focused and
we loved it and we were so happy to be doing it that I don’t—maybe those that did not
have as much as I did in Forest Park, I had no limitations, they maybe felt like they were
pioneering, I did not think I was pioneering because I always did it, but as I look back
now it absolutely opened doors and I think and the movie, even though it was 1992, it
should have come a lot sooner to help some of the causes and I think it helped men to.
51:56 It helped young men, I think, believe in themselves and do more than they have
16
�ever done and help those that were skilled enough to get to a higher level. Now I see us
as pioneers and definitely inspired some people. I get letters from young women and it’s
touching, it’s touching and then when I meet someone and I’m signing up and it’s a little
thirteen year old and say, “you know I was playing professional softball when I was
thirteen. Now, I’m going to put a challenge to you bla, bla, bla,”, because let them see,
let them hear--here’s this little person, tiny little thing and they’re coming and I was
playing ball and I was getting at one time $75.00 a week, that was big-time.
Interviewer: “At that time it was good money and you sent most of that home?”
Oh yeah, and the coach, Norma Whitney and I, she was the second baseman and I was
shortstop, she and I were, and I don’t know if there were others, but we would send our
monies home and the coach said, “you know Toni I have to tell you, while you’re eating
hot dogs and burgers, all the others are eating steaks and why aren’t you spending money
on yourself?” 53.09 First of all I grew up with the mentality of poverty, so I didn’t think
I was starving and it was important for me to send that home. My mother had died, my
father was so distraught, and I just—it was not an issue. Yes, that was big money,
seventy-five a week for a little fourteen, fifteen year old was very respectable. All and all
the experience in the league and what it did for us personally, also, the women that you
see here, they’re tough cookies you know, so they had that mentality. A lot of them
went into professions, they were teachers, many of them were teachers, so can you
imagine what people all got? 53:56 I had that same mentality, never do things by halves,
not to be a quitter. There’s nothing like winning, I know they all say “put your guts into
it “, but if you have been in sports there is nothing like winning, I’m telling you. Like
you play three sets in tennis, killing yourself and then they say, ”well you got to the finals
and went three sets”, but I’ll tell you, losing as opposed to winning, there’s nothing like
winning that and I use to say, “why not, why not be able to win it?” What I did learn is,
in softball too when I was coaching that, don’t say, “oh, if I can only get a hit”, I said say,
“I’m going four for four tonight”, you know, shoot high. If you go four for four
mentally, you might get three hits, but if you say, “if I only get one hit”, you’re lucky if
you get a hit and that’s the same way—you know they say in tennis and in other sports,
people, play not to lose, play to win, and when you play not to lose it’s a different game.
55:05 It’s too careful, and I remember, I was in this tennis tournament and I was
winning, 5-2 and I only had two more sets to go and I remember saying, “Toni, only two
more, one at a time, only two more”, and I lost 7-5 because I altered my game. I played
not to lose and I thought just play one at a time and no, I had to have that same drive, that
same intensity. What it teaches you in life, and it’s really interesting to me, is you have
to maintain that intensity. If you watch football games and that, they can’t go four
quarters, they fade out in the fourth quarter, so the name of the game is, you have to
consistently hold it. I remember one time a ref was watching me play tennis and I was
out against the number one player in a big national tournament and running my behinder
off and I remember so distinctly that I wanted a point and it was spectacular, bam, bam,
bam, and I won the point and then afterwards the referee said, “Toni, you know what?
You have the ability to really be a winner in this, but what happens, you don’t
consistently play every point the way you played that one point”. 56:26 So, I play that
one point and maybe lose the next three and then zoom in there, so it teaches you
17
�discipline, and it really is a lost art today. The discipline of keeping going, keeping
going, not settling for less and not giving in to that, you know, that’s life. All those
principles that—you know life is not easy, right? Basically if you have the attitude and
you have the consistency of discipline, life is a lot easier and you can take the bumps and
you can kind of take the hard things and survive them and you move on, you move on.
57:02 Say, “I’ve been given this much time in life and I’m not going to let it drain me”,
we move on.
Interviewer: “I was just thinking, as an athlete, as someone who did succeed, you
can say that to others and they will listen and in that sense the league helped you, it
gave you credentials that you could use.”
Yes, yes, that’s well said. It gave me the credentials and gave this belief that we are
special and it’s imparted to the people, so we are recipients of that wonderful, wonderful
gift that people have given to us.
Interviewer: “And then you can pass it on.”
I can pass it on.
Interviewer: “Now, I think I have run out of questions, do any of the rest of you
have thoughts or areas we should cover?”
We want to give a standing ovation, clap, clap, and clap.
Interviewer: “A wonderful job, a tremendous job.”
I feel so privileged that I got to do this, really. 58:11
Interviewer: “I thought of one thing, I haven’t asked anybody about the umpires.
Do you have some thoughts on umpiring?”
Oh, let me think a minute. Of course you’re never too happy with umpping.
Interviewer: “Who were the umpires?”
They were always from the minor leagues.
Interviewer: “The umpires traveled with you?”
No, they were there.
Interviewer: “They were from the neighborhood?”
Yeah, I don’t think at that time—we were so disciplined at keeping your mouth shut that
we didn’t—you know the chaperones could do the arguing, but I do remember one time
they called a—I thought it was a balk, so I’m hollering balk, balk and thinking I should
be awarded second base and meanwhile at the fourth they called me out because they’re
tagging me out and I’m calling bla, bla, bla, I was so upset and that was the one and only
time and I really argued. 59:00 I really had an I and I just knew and I called it. Well,
you can’t call it the ump has to call it, so while I’m calling it their tagging me out and I’m
18
�just not about to move because they were in the wrong and there wasn’t a lot of arguing, I
think because we were just like a—I was thinking, Jackie Robinson, he was told to zip it
and we were told like that too because people would not have liked us if we were
combative. I think they would have liked a spirit of maybe once and a while, but it’s a
good question.
Interviewer: “I’ve seen a couple pictures-- there where a couple at the league level
that went after the umpires pretty good.”
Yeah, and I believe they did. I think we just had to for the P.R.
Interviewer: “You were ambassadors.” 60:00
Ambassadors, yeah, truly
Interviewer: “Ok”
Think of us highly now.
Interviewer: “I will never say instructional again.”
Never again and thank you so much
Interviewer: “Thank you”
19
�20
�
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2017-10-02
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-58_TPalermo
Title
A name given to the resource
Palermo, Toni (Interview transcript and video), 2009
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Palermo, Toni
Description
An account of the resource
Toni Palermo was born and grew up in Forest Park, Illinois. When she was ten, her P.E. teacher encouraged her to try out for a professional softball league in Chicago. She played for a farm team until she turned fourteen when she joined the professional team. She was recruited into the All American Girls Professional Baseball League shortly afterward, and played two years with their barnstorming teams, the Chicago Colleens and the Springfield Sallies. Over the next several years she alternated between playing on AAGPBL teams and a Chicago softball team. She played shortstop throughout her career. She went on to become a nun as well as a teacher, and remained active in competitive sports.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Olson, Gordon (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945
Baseball players--Illinois
Women
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2009-09-26
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4