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https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/71f5b60d70673a09dbede19ead918b42.mp4
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ORAL HISTORY INTERVIEW
JOAN HOLDERNESS
Women in Baseball
Born: Kenosha, Wisconsin, March 17, 1933
Resides:
Interviewed by: Frank Boring, GVSU Veterans History Project, August10, 2010, Detroit,
MI at the All American Girls Professional Baseball League reunion.
Transcribed by: Joan Raymer, February 6, 2011
Interviewer: “What is your full name and where and when were you born?”
I was born on March 17th, 1933 in Kenosha, Wisconsin.
Interviewer: “And your full name?”
Joan Holderness
Interviewer: “What was your early childhood like?”
I can recall that my dad played a lot of ball and my grandfathers both played and they
used to go out to the lake when I was a little tot, so I played ball all the time. I had a bat
and a ball and they had those flat gloves and I can remember doing that as a little kid.
The first time I heard about the league was when my mother took me to a ball game of
the Kenosha Comets with a friend of hers, and man, I just loved that. 43:11
Interviewer: “About how old were you when you saw them?”
I was probably in the fifth or sixth grade. From then on I wanted to be one of them, but
my mother was very strict and I didn’t go to any more ball games until I got into junior
high and I use to go down and watch them practicing. We could sit in the left field free
as fans, so I got to meet several of the ball players and they would play catch with or me.
44:05 In 1947 I was fourteen years old and they asked me if I wanted to be their batgirl.
They didn’t have batgirls, so I got a uniform and I was a batgirl, and of course, I was with
them in town I’d see them.
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�Interviewer: “So, you were going to school and then during the summer is when
you would be a batgirl?”
Yes
Interviewer: “Did they pay you?”
No
Interviewer: “But you got a uniform?”
Yeah, in 1948 they started a farm system for the league and they played in Chicago and
my dad agreed that he would drive me down there once a week to play. They had four
teams, so I got to play. 45:14 I played shortstop and I really loved that, but we had to
drive all the way to Chicago and there were no Interstates or anything, but you would get
there and get into the game right away. I enjoyed that for the whole year in 1948. In
1949 they invited me to go to spring training in Indiana, so I went to spring training and I
ended up getting a contract and my dad signed my contract. 46:01
Interviewer: “Because you were underage.”
Oh, yeah
Interviewer: “How old were you?”
In 1949 I was sixteen, but my mother wouldn’t let me travel. Half of that year I
couldn’t—I could go to Racine, and I think that’s the only place she would let me go, so
how are you going to get on a team when you can’t go on the road, so it was tough for me
to get on the team and on a position. They liked me and they were very nice with me.
Anyway, in 1950 I played quite a bit. They use to put me as a pinch hitter a lot and I
played right field once in a while, but they had established some players that wouldn’t
give up their spots, so it was tough. 47:08 About in July of 1950 Grand Rapids needed a
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�player in right field and I guess—Johnny Rawlings was the coach and he had watched me
when I was practicing with them and I had a good arm and so they wanted me to go to
Grand Rapids. Well, Grand Rapids was in town playing at Kenosha and when they were
leaving Kenosha they went to Racine, so they brought me up to Racine with my mother
and my mother was sitting and talking with the chaperone. Then they brought a girl
down that I was going to room with and they met her mother and so my mother finally let
me go. 48:11 Then I got to play all the time, but every night in right field, so I really
loved playing for them. I really enjoyed playing with the Chicks. And that was a lot of
nice girls.
Interviewer: “What was your—now you’re living in a house or something during
the season? You’re not living at home anymore right, for the Grand Rapids
Chicks? Where did you live when you were playing for Grand Rapids where were
you living?”
We were first in a home with a family and we just had a room. We couldn’t cook there
or anything. We could wash clothes, but we couldn’t cook or anything, so it was just a
place we could sleep. 49:08 We had twin beds and it was a nice place, and nice people.
Interviewer: “Was that your first time living away from home?”
Oh yeah
Interviewer: “By that time you were maybe seventeen or eighteen?”
That was in 1950, so I was seventeen. We ended up getting an apartment and that was
nice because we could cook and everything and it didn’t cost so much. I couldn’t go to a
lot of restaurants because I wasn’t old—if they had any booze they wouldn’t let you in
and they always had the best cooks.
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�Interviewer: “How were you as a hitter?”
How was I? I don’t remember striking out, but I think they got a couple places where I
struck out, but I don’t remember striking out. 50:17 I wasn’t a three hundred hitter or
anything, but I was good at meeting the ball.
Interviewer: “How about strawberries? Did you slide into bases at all?”
Not real good. Too many legs you know, but I did all right, I didn’t like sliding.
Interviewer: “Did you think, at that time, that you were going to continue playing
baseball as a professional? You were sixteen, seventeen, years old, were you
thinking about playing?” 51:15
I played 1951, but I felt like the league was kind of busting up. Kenosha let their team
travel all the time and a couple tournaments they were going to different teams and Grand
Rapids was losing their fans. They just—they had other things to do then. They had
gasoline and they could go where they wanted to go, but we had some nice crowds for a
while, especially in Grand Rapids. Rockford was a nice place and Fort Wayne had good
fans. 52:11
Interviewer: “What were your plans in terms of—were you going to go to college or
did you think going into the work world or were you going to get married? What
were you thinking about?”
Well, I was planning on going to school, but I never did. When I went back home I had
to go back into school and some teachers didn’t like that I left early to go to spring
training and when I came back they wouldn’t let me make up my studies, so I had
problems with them. I ended up—I didn’t graduate when I was supposed to graduate, so
I was disgusted with that, so I ended up going back and getting a job with the
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�government. 53:06 Then I didn’t want to go back to play ball anymore. It was hard to
get a job with the government and I worked at Great Lakes.
Interviewer: “Did you make the decision not to play anymore?”
Yeah, they called me the next year, but I decided not to play. I couldn’t because I didn’t
want to leave that job and my dad had signed for me to get a car, so I had to pay for the
car, so I couldn’t quit the job.
Interviewer: “Did you miss it?”
Well yeah, I did miss it and the first couple years I really did, but after that-Interviewer: “How did you find out that the league had folded? Do you remember
how you found out?” 54:07
Well, the last year I played a lot of the teams were busting down you know. They were
running out of money and they were losing money and they just quit. The girls had to go
to other teams and it was just traveling, traveling. Buses bothered me; I got tired of bus
rides. I didn’t ride a bus for a long time, many years, I was sick of them.
Interviewer: “After you quit the league, did you ever talk to people after that, years
later did you ever talk about the fact that you played professional baseball?”
Not really, we didn’t discuss it. No, sometimes I would see the girl that I was living with.
She got married and she would have a child, every year she would have a child. 55:14 I
would see her and I was bowling quite a bit and I would meet several of the girls that
were ball players and were bowling, so I got to see some of them, but I really didn’t—I
loved playing baseball, and I’ve been a Cubs fan all my life. I just—it was done you
know.
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�Interviewer: “Now, you’re at a reunion after many, many years, what prompted
you to come to a reunion?”
Oh, to see people. I went to the first one in Chicago and to see everybody again was
really great and we had a lot of fun. 56:10 We got to play golf and whatever, so it was
fun
Interviewer: “What was your reaction to getting into the Baseball Hall of Fame?”
Oh, I thought it was great that they accepted our league. At the time I was a computer
worker with the government and I built a database for the league and I helped
Cooperstown to get all the names up, and that was nice to find everybody.
Interviewer: “Did you go to the Hall of Fame?”
Oh yeah, I’ve been there two or three times.
Interviewer: “Did you go there when they actually had the opening ceremony?”
Yeah
Interviewer: “What was that like?” 57:04
That was super and when they opened that curtain, oh, we were all excited and I took a
lot of movies of that.
Interviewer: “Did you see the movie, A League of Their Own?”
Did I see it? Oh yeah, I’ve seen it a lot of times.
Interviewer: “What did you think of that?”
I thought she did a great job. There was a lot of Hollywood stuff in there, but I thought
she did a wonderful job, and everybody I talk to about it today, people say they have seen
that movie so many times, not the players or fans, just people.
Interviewer: “I’ve seen it maybe five or six times myself.”
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�It’s on TV quite a bit, so they really enjoy that movie.
Interviewer: “Do you think the movie, the movie itself when it came out, did that
get you thinking more about your time in baseball or were you already thinking
about the baseball anyway?” 58:14
At the time it came out I was president of the association, so I was pretty excited for
everybody and I think Penny did a wonderful job. I met her in Chicago and I met a
couple of the stars, Rosie and Madonna, they were there, so I got them, but I thought
Penny did a wonderful job with it. She had a couple of our girls there helping her.
Interviewer: “Were you at all surprised at the big—this huge outpouring of
affection for your league that didn’t really happen before that, right? Before the
movie?” 59:13
They didn’t know about us, they just—of course the girls were from all around us, east
and west, but the league itself played right in the Midwest. People just didn’t know about
us, they just didn’t know about our league.
Interviewer: “Were you surprised at this? It’s big, and you probably didn’t think
it was going to be this big when you were playing ball. Were you surprised at how
big it’s become?”
I think I am, yeah, I think it’s wonderful, especially for kids, they just think it’s
wonderful and they wish they could play. It’s surprising they are so happy.
Interviewer: “Do you think that the fact that you played, that the league played,
had an affect on young people, on young girls? Do you think there was an
inspiration from what you did?”
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�Perhaps, yeah and they realize that women can play in sports and I think that helped a lot
of people. Tennis was wonderful for women and they just went for everything, soccer,
it’s great, and a lot of ball players are out there, I just don’t see them that much. I don’t
see them anymore, but I know there’s a lot of them playing ball. :55
Interviewer: “Were there any particular games or events that happened during
your playing that stand out? A home run or stealing a base?”
No, I didn’t make it—I had a triple once and I got to third base and I couldn’t go any
farther. I told John, “I guess I wasn’t breathing when I was running across there”, but he
was motioning me to go home and I couldn’t make it. That was in Fort Wayne and that
was funny, but he was mad that I didn’t go.
Interviewer: “How did the manager treat you?”
Every manager I had was very good. Johnny Gottselig from Chicago, he was a hockey
player and I never thought about him as a baseball player, but he was nice. 2:00
Interviewer: “Did the managers treat you like a woman or did they treat you like a
ball player?”
Both I guess, yeah. John was wonderful, John Rawlings. I’d be in the field and he’d be
standing—you know when you’re warming up prior to the game, and he would hit a fly
ball and then he’s hit two ground balls to right field and he’d put his bat down near the
ground and that’s what he wanted, for me to throw that ball right at that bat and man, I
would make him move it because I had a good arm. He thought that was funny, the way
I could hit—that I could throw that ball so well, but I could do anything for that guy, he
was great. I really enjoyed playing for him. 3:03
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�Interviewer: “Some of the other girls said that they knew how to play baseball from
playing on their own or playing with neighbors and things like that, but the
managers taught them specific things that professionals knew. Did that, did they
teach you certain things that you didn’t know before, on how to play better?”
Well, I think John did if we were in the infield or whatever, he would—don’t take steps
and things like that or how to be in position to flip. My dad taught me a lot about
throwing from the field, my hand close to my head. I had a good arm. 4:00
Interviewer: “Were you playing the standard baseball when you played, or was it
the larger baseball?”
It was overhand when I played, but it wasn’t down to a nine inch, which they ended up
with I guess. I think we were around ten or nine and three quarters or something. It was
a good fast ball and it was—I thought it was a good game because it was fast.
Interviewer: “What did you think of the uniforms?”
The uniforms didn’t bother me, but you know, it was kind of wide at the bottom and I’d
cut mine down a little bit. I had long legs, but I didn’t flip them out you know, but they
were ok, and they never bothered me. 5:12
Interviewer: “Looking back on that period of time, how do you feel about that
period of your life?”
Oh, it was great, I was making about ninety dollars a week and that’s more than my dad
was making. When I think about when I went to a job with the government, I wasn’t
making nothing, it was terrible, but I spent over thirty years with the government and by
that time I got up a little bit. It was good money for a lot of the girls. A lot of them—a
lot of my friends went to school and it was great. 5:58
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�Interviewer: “Did you help support your family when you were playing?”
Yeah, not that I wanted to, I was saving money so I could go to school and they needed
money for taxes, so in a couple years I lost it, so anyway-Interviewer: “How do you like the reunions?”
The reunions? Oh, they’re great, but we’ve lost so many girls now. Especially the last
couple of years ooh. When I was the president you know, I think I had gotten over five
hundred and seventy some players in the league, but we couldn’t find about a hundred
and thirty people, so I don’t know where they’re down to now. 6:57 Boy, it was tough
finding them.
Interviewer: “We’ve had the same problem trying to find you to be able to get an
interview with you, so I understand. It’s important that we get these, and I’m glad
you sat down with me. I did a wonderful interview with Beans Risinger and a
couple of weeks after that she went to Oklahoma and she passed away, but I got
calls from Cookie, I got calls from others saying they were so happy I got that.”
7:34
She was a wonderful gal.
Interviewer: “She was a wonderful gal.”
She was a good pitcher too.
Interviewer: “Yeah, and tall too.”
She was taller than me, that’s for sure.
Interviewer: “Were there very many tall girls like you? Because you’re big.”
I’m about five ten, but I Beanie was over six foot. Another girl from Duluth was about
six two or three. Barbara Rotvig, she died of Cancer when she was thirty-five years old
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�and she was like a big sister to me. 8:11 I was the oldest in my family and I have two
sisters and a brother, but she was my big sister. She was a great pitcher too.
Interviewer: “When you first started in the league you were very, very young and
you were mentioning the chaperone. Were you carefully watched because of your
age?”
Oh yeah, especially when I went to Grand Rapids. If you wanted to date anybody, she
had to know and when you couldn’t go to these restaurants, you ate at the huddle house
or something. 9:14
Interviewer: “You can’t go where they serve alcohol, right?”
Yeah, it was terrible. We didn’t—the girl I was rooming with, she was only a year older
than I was, so we had to be careful what we were doing. She had a car and she was from
Chicago, so we had a good time.
Interviewer: “Whenever I get together with you, because I was in Milwaukee, we
were in Milwaukee doing interviews too, and you hear certain stories. What’s your
story? What’s the one you tell?” 9:55
I don’t really have any stories.
Interviewer: “Well, you hit a triple once you said.”
I can remember when I was at Kenosha, John would put me in as a pinch hitter and I
would get a hit and win the game and the fans went crazy you know and that was
wonderful. Two or three times that one year, so I remember those times, but it was a lot
of fun for me to play because I really enjoyed baseball. My brother didn’t like to play
ball. 10:51
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�Interviewer: “You played, you said, with your father, right? Did you just play
catch or batting too?”
With my father, sometimes he would take me out and he would throw and if we would go
to the park he could hit a ton and I couldn’t find the ball you know. Yeah, he spent a lot
of time with me hitting balls. My mother was a pretty good athlete too and they didn’t
have a lot of organized leagues in Kenosha when I was a kid, but they did have about
four teams for the city and I ended up being a pitcher for softball and my mother was in
the backyard catching for me, but I don’t remember her going to the games. 11:53 My
dad would go to the ball games when we were in town, and my grandfather, my dad’s
father, he would come to the ball games if I was there. It was nice, but when you’re out
there you’re worried about if you’re going to throw the ball away or something in front of
them and I would worry about that. You know a lot of my friends were there and it was
embarrassing if you did something wrong, but I really enjoyed playing ball. 12:39
Interviewer: “Thank you very much.”
Well, thank you.
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Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Title
A name given to the resource
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Interviews
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Grand Valley State University. History Department
Description
An account of the resource
The All-American Girls Professional Baseball League was started by Philip Wrigley, owner of the Chicago Cubs, during World War II to fill the void left by the departure of most of the best male baseball players for military service. Players were recruited from across the country, and the league was successful enough to be able to continue on after the war. The league had teams based in Wisconsin, Illinois, Indiana and Michigan, and operated between 1943 and 1954. The 1954 season ended with only the Fort Wayne, South Bend, Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Rockford teams remaining. The League gave over 600 women athletes the opportunity to play professional baseball. Many of the players went on to successful careers, and the league itself provided an important precedent for later efforts to promote women's sports.
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-58)</a>
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Subject
The topic of the resource
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Oral history
Baseball players--Minnesota
Baseball players--Indiana
Baseball players--Wisconsin
Baseball players--Michigan
Baseball players--Illinois
Baseball for women--United States
Publisher
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Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401
Identifier
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RHC-58
Format
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video/mp4
application/pdf
Type
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Moving Image
Text
Language
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eng
Date
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2017-10-02
Contributor
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Smither, James
Boring, Frank
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Oral History
A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge.
Dublin Core
The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/.
Identifier
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RHC-58_JHolderness0369BB
Title
A name given to the resource
Holderness, Joan (Interview transcript and video), 2010
Creator
An entity primarily responsible for making the resource
Holderness, Joan
Description
An account of the resource
Joan Holderness was born in Kenosha, Wisconsin, in 1933. She learned to play baseball from her father, and after the Kenosha Comets came to town, she started going to their games and became their bat girl, and was recruited to join the team as an outfielder in 1949, even though her mother would not let her travel farther than Racine for road games. The next year, she got to play full time, and was traded to Grand Rapids. She left the league after the 1950 season and took a regular job at the Great Lakes naval base in Illinois.
Contributor
An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource
Boring, Frank (Interviewer)
Publisher
An entity responsible for making the resource available
Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives
Subject
The topic of the resource
Oral history
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Video recordings
All-American Girls Professional Baseball League--Personal narratives
Baseball for women--United States
Baseball
Sports for women
World War, 1939-1945--Personal narratives, American
Baseball players--Michigan
Language
A language of the resource
eng
Rights
Information about rights held in and over the resource
<a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a>
Type
The nature or genre of the resource
Moving Image
Text
Relation
A related resource
Veterans History Project (U.S.)
Date
A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource
2010-08-10
Source
A related resource from which the described resource is derived
<a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/484">All-American Girls Professional Baseball League Collection, (RHC-55)</a>
Format
The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource
application/pdf
video/mp4