805 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/15abbd4d3fefea41971b4319f9405269.pdf 36aba87e85f174a2ac3a6a8dbe98bbf9 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mrs. David Warner Interviewed on September 30, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tapes #22, 23 (56:32) Biographical Information Mary Jeanette Shelly, the daughter of James R. Shelly and Mary Isabel Hayes was born in Grand Rapids in March 1888. Jeanette died in Grand Rapids on 7 December 1974. She married David A. Warner on 26 November 1908 in Marine City, St. Clair County, Michigan. David A. Warner was born 7 October 1883 in New York, the son of David S. Warner and Louisa Jumph. David died in Grand Rapids on 24 September 1966. _____________ Interviewer: Were you born in Grand Rapids, Mrs. Warner? Mrs. Warner: yes. Interviewer: What was your family‟s name? Mrs. Warner: Shelly, S-H-E-L-L-Y. That‟s an English name or an Irish name, of course, and my father was in the furniture business. That was Berkey and Gay and the Luce Furniture Company. And my mother-neither one of my parents were born here. My father was born in Rochester, New York, and my mother was born in Detroit. And they both moved through the years as younger people to Grand Rapids and then we lived here always. Interviewer: Where did you live? Mrs. Warner: Well, we lived on Paris Avenue which was a residential street then, if you know where it is. Between Logan and Wealthy was a residential area. That‟s where I grew up as a child. But my father died when he was quite a young man, forty-two I remember, of pneumonia. It was one of those things that happened to people. And my mother carried on. I had a brother who died. Jim died I guess about five or ten years, eight or nine years ago and I have a sister living in New York… a much younger sister and that‟s the only family I have. Interviewer: What was the… go ahead. Mrs. Warner: I was married very young. Mr. Warner was at the University of Michigan and he came to Grand Rapids. He had a connection, you see-like the young lawyers dowith one of the lawyers in Grand Rapids who‟s long since dead, and that‟s the way he established in Grand Rapids. �2 Interviewer: Was he from Grand Rapids? Mrs. Warner: No, he was born in Rochester, New York. Interviewer: Oh, your husband was? Mrs. Warner: Yes, they were both…it was funny that they, not that they know each other but they were both came from Rochester. Interviewer: What was the… what was it like on Paris Avenue when you were growing up as a child? Mrs. Warner: Well, it was a very nice, happy neighborhood with children- families with children-and one thing that I think of funny things in connection with it. It was one of the first streets to be paved with a hard surface. And on a summer evening -it was when bicycles became so popular- and that block, two or three blocks from Wealthy down to Logan with people would come with their bicycles, men and women, not children, and some of them tandems on bicycles and ride up and down and up and down on that because it was a hard surface. And my ambition, I remember, as a child was to have a bicycle, and at last I achieved the age, reached the age when my father thought I should have a bicycle. We had, I think sometimes that children…we had simpler lives and I think it was, in a way, happier. I was reading this afternoon about a book about Fourth of July-the celebration of Fourth of July. Why, that was a great thing. You probably don‟t remember when you celebrated the Fourth of July. Oh, you planned, had for weeks and collected what you could in the way of funds to buy the firecrackers and things and then someone in the neighborhood on the block or so, some father would do an evening display of fireworks. But (we) used to get up at three or four o‟clock in the morning and go and rouse each other and get out there and shoot firecrackers. Now that was considered very gay. We loved it. Things like that that were so simple. Interviewer: Were there city-wide celebrations too, were there big things where…? Mrs. Warner: Oh, there was always a…usually a speaker or someone gave an oration in the park and a parade sometimes. I don‟t remember much about… I don‟t think I was ever taken to a Fourth of July Parade or anything of that kind. We were quite far, in a way, quite far out from downtown. We were… the streetcars ran on Wealthy, ran from Wealthy Street-line ran from out here which was Ramona, an amusement park was located on this land that‟s here on the lake. And the street railway company owned the amusement park. And the Wealthy street cars ran from here out to North Park. Do you know where North Park is? Interviewer: Yeah. Mrs. Warner: Yes. Well, that was one line that ran. That was called the Wealthy-Taylor Line. �3 Interviewer: It would go from out here at Ramona downtown and then go north? Mrs. Warner Yes, then go out…what we called lower Monroe was called Canal Street at that time. Interviewer: Why was it called Canal Street? Mrs. Warner: Well, because of the canal along there. Then there was a canal adjacent to the river. And it ran along there then it turned and went up. I can‟t remember where it turned and went up and then it went out what was Taylor Avenue out to North Park and turned around out there. And we used to go streetcar riding. That was a great thing for an evening, a summer evening. You always got in the front seat, if you could, and you went the whole trip. Came round trip, it cost five cents. Life was really quite simple and pleasant. Interviewer: Were the families pretty close in the neighborhood? Mrs. Warner: Oh yes, they were, oh, a good neighborly feeling more, some more than others, some were closer than others. A doctor lived across the street from us and I was friendly with, quite friendly with their children his children and with the family. And there was a Colonel [Loomis K.] Bishop lived on the corner [now 457 Paris] and he was a Civil War veteran and he‟d been made the postman officer, post master here in Grand Rapids as an award for you know-there was-the political assignments of that kind often were given to military men. And Colonel and Annie Bishop, they were very nice to children. Interviewer: Did they have any children of their own? Mrs. Warner: No, they were older; they were quite a little older. They were awfully nice about cookies and things like that. Interviewer: Did you go to school in Grand Rapids then? Mrs. Warner: Yes, at that time my family, well, they were all Catholic. We were Catholics and, as a matter of fact, we were the only Catholics on that… in that immediate neighborhood. Not that it made any difference except for the fact that I went to Saint Andrew‟s School, Catholic School, which was way down on Sheldon Avenue where the Cathedral is if you know where the Saint Andrew‟s Cathedral is. And I went there and the other children went to what was called Lafayette School, which was there, well it‟s Vandenberg now I think, and we went down together. We walked together but I had to continue on much further. And do you know that we went, we walked and we came home to lunch and we went back and walked again and we never thought anything about it in winter, any kind of weather. Interviewer: It‟s a little different than today, huh? �4 Mrs. Warner: Every child has to be taken in a car or else on a bus. That‟s a controversy that‟s going on. Interviewer: What, were there, you say you were the only Catholic family on Paris Avenue? Mrs. Warner: Yes. Interviewer: Were there portions of the city where Catholics seemed to congregate or…? Mrs. Warner: No. No. Interviewer: Dispersed all over then, huh? Mrs. Warner: Yeah, um hum. This was never much of a Catholic city; really…I mean population wise. Quite a few Catholics-those that went to Saint Andrew‟s-went to school and who were acquaintances of ours…they were never close friends because they didn‟t live in the same neighborhood. A good many of them were…there were quite a few families down along Sheldon, oh around in that neighborhood where the cathedral was. But as far as we were concerned it was no particular point made of it one way or the other. Others went to different churches. Interviewer: There are quite a few Negroes living down in that area now. Were there very many Negroes in Grand Rapids at that time? Mrs. Warner: No, very few…very few. Interviewer: Do you remember any particularly? Mrs. Warner: No, none other than those that we knew as waiters. If you went to the hotel or went to a club or places of that kind, usually the help was colored. And you knew them and knew them by name and were friendly with them, but there was no large concentration of colored that I remember. Interviewer: What clubs, did your family belong to any clubs? Mrs. Warner: No, there were not very many clubs. There was the one club that was here on the lake called the O-Wash-Ta-Nong Club which was very nice…oh, it was just a social club where there were dinners and often times parties, dancing parties and all, and it went out over the water. It was a lovely place. It burned eventually. But the only clubs that the Kent Country Club started, oh, I don‟t know how many years ago-how old the Kent Country Club is but at the time that it was first organized by a group of men who became interested in golf, it was in what is now… do you know where the Bissell House is? �5 Interviewer: um hum. Mrs. Warner: …on the corner of Plymouth and Wealthy? That was the club house-Kent Country Club House. And where the hospital is, all that rolling land over there was the golf course. Interviewer: When was that moved, do you know? Mrs. Warner: About fifty years ago. I think it‟s all of that, maybe more. It went out to where it‟s located now. Interviewer: Did you go to high school in town? Mrs. Warner: Yes, by that time I went to the regular high school-not a denominational. The high school that‟s… there was just one high school. It was the one that‟s on Fountain Street now. Interviewer: Was there much interaction between… let‟s say children in your neighborhood where you lived and children that lived up on-oh…Mr. Judd referred to it as a Quality Hill, that „s what West-Siders used to refer to. Mrs. Warner: Yes, no I didn‟t know those young people. Interviewer: Did you go to college? Mrs. Warner: No, I went, I went to art school in Washington, the Corcoran Art School at one point, and then I met Mr. Warner when he came to Grand Rapids and we were married quite… I was quite young when I was married. You‟d think-we‟d think it‟s young now, I didn‟t think it was young then. I thought, well, I sometimes realize now… if I know now as much as I thought I knew then-I‟d really be awfully well informed. I had all the answers. Interviewer: How old were you? Mrs. Warner: Nineteen. I, a good deal like the young people have now… and I was the person for causes. Violent enthusiasms about causes of various kinds…movements of one sort or another. Interviewer: What kind did you get involved in? Mrs. Warner: Well, I got involved in club life and then I became involved in the suffrage movement. And that was a very active movement at the time. You see, it had been for many years back to Susan An…. Susan B. Anthony was an agitator for votes for womenequal suffrage-but it had never been too actively promoted at least to my knowledge. And all of a sudden during the First World War, women took very…a much more active part in a thing, affairs out of their home. For instance the Red Cross, you see, which was �6 very active. You wouldn‟t have any idea of the difference when one has seen the wars like the First World War and the Second World War and the feeling there was about it, and then to see this disaffection that there is about the Vietnam War. It‟s amazing. We were really patriotic… patriots in those times and, as I say, women worked hard and were given responsibility during the war and then that stirred up this idea that if they could do that, then they should vote. And the movement became very active, very much of an issue. And we kept… we organized here in Grand Rapids. There was a group of us who were so involved in it that we organized very thoroughly for a real city-wide campaign on the way that the war effort had been done by block chairmen and you‟d have a… you‟d locate a woman in a certain area, small area who believed in it and you‟d engage her in activities with her neighbors and her friends and her people that she met with petitions, signing petitions. And we also opened an office downtown and in… we were given some space in a store along Division Avenue and we worked every day at it. And we organized the whole thing in a very business-like way. The result being that we collected… of course, there were those that were just as violently against it, and used to engage in real heated arguments over it. And the result was that we collected on these petitions hundreds of names. And, at that time, there were two newspapers in Grand Rapids, there was the morning Grand Rapids Herald. And the editor of the Herald was sympathetic to us and he gave us in one issue a full page space … a spread in the middle of two full pages to print those names that we had in little fine print all those were as a piece of publicity that we organized. Interviewer: What was the… what was the ultimate objective, to get the vote? Mrs. Warner: To get the vote. You see, the amendment had passed the Congress and it was a matter, as it always is, of the majority of the states ratifying to make it a law-the law of the land. And we were agitating to have the Michigan Legislature ratify it. We besieged our representatives. We didn‟t know enough, we never… I thought about it since I spoke with you. I thought something about it and I got to thinking about it anyway with this matter of the vote for eighteen year olds. It had kind of brought the old effort back to my mind. It never occurred to us to march on Lansing like they do now. We never…we never organized any marches that I … Interviewer: Were they mostly just door to door … Mrs. Warner: Yes. Interviewer: …canvassing and talking and… Mrs. Warner: Yes, that sort of person to person. We had a funny thing happen to me in connection with it that might be amusing to you. We always took the… the county fair was much more of an affair than it is now. People, large crowds went to it and it was always in the fall quite an event out at the… what the fairgrounds out at North Park and we always took a booth to put up our, you know, our display of literature and hand out our literature and all. And we manned that booth with-women went down and took their turns being in the booth for… of the day. Any my turn came up to go out early in the �7 morning and be there most of the day, I can remember. And the night before, I fell against the door of our automobile and cut my eye-quite a little cut right in here, close to my eye. It had to have several stitches. Well, it gave me a perfectly beautiful black eye if you‟ve ever seen one. But nothing daunted, I went out to man the booth… was that… did that attract attention. The rebel remarks, the jokes that it called for. I think it probably brought more people, more people stopped at our booth than would have otherwise. To see the suffragette with a black eye-that was something. Interviewer: Were men sympathetic to a … Mrs. Warner: Oh yes, many men were. Interviewer: Was there opposition to the women‟s vote, also? Mrs. Warner: Oh, was there opposition? It was fierce opposition. The people were just as violently against as they were for. Oh, it was, it was quite a hot issue. But the result was of, I suppose, our effort not only in Grand Rapids but all over the state. Detroit was a very active group and other places all over the state and the result was that our legislature was the first one to ratify months before the ratification was finished by the legislatures. Interviewer: Michigan was the first state to ratify the amendment, huh? Mrs. Warner: That was in nineteen twenty. Interviewer: Where, where did the opposition to the women‟s vote… did it seem to come from any…? Mrs. Warner: Oh, it was just prejudice-women belonged in the home. Women should stay where they belonged, they didn‟t… Interviewer: How did the majority of the women feel? Mrs. Warner: Oh, many very intelligent women were against it. They didn‟t feel that they, it was…it was, it was the whole thing-for and against-was a prejudice type of thing… emotional kind of prejudice, nothing much… very… at least the arguments against it were thoroughly emotional because there was really no valid reason why women shouldn‟t vote as well as men. But there was very strong feeling. Interviewer: Well, there still seems to be a lot of strong feeling against women being treated as equals isn‟t there? Mrs. Warner: Well, this lib business… movement that I think… I don‟t know, it seems to me that some of their objectives are rather extreme. But as far as equal pay for equal work, I think that is only fair and I think it ought to be promoted and agitated until it comes about. Now of course, when you know they go, for instance, all this matter about �8 putting a woman on the Supreme Bench… well, I don‟t doubt at all that there are plenty of women who have been… had legal experience and been on Federal Benches and know the law and the Constitution quite as well as some of these candidates that have been put up in the past to my knowledge. Pretty weak, and it‟ll be very interesting, very interesting to see what the President‟s appointments are and how it‟s received in the Congress. And I doubt very much that he‟ll put up the name of a woman. Interviewer: You don‟t think he will? Mrs. Warner: I really don‟t think so, no. Interviewer: Mrs. Nixon is supposedly agitating in the backrooms of the White House for it. That‟s what the report says. Mrs. Warner: Well, I‟ve heard that, too, but I don‟t know. And what do you think the Congress would do with it? Interviewer: Oh, I think if the woman was qualified that the Congress would approve her unless they could dig up some scandals like they did with a…. Mrs Warner: Caswell. Interviewer: [G. Harrold] Carswell, yeah. Mrs. Warner: Well, they were not competent men to be on the Supreme Bench. I have very strong feelings about those things, I guess, because of my husband‟s legal opinions. I think it should be the very cream of the brains, legal brains of the country in that position and I think that there‟s been a lot of really bad publicity about the Supreme Bench in the past few years. Everything, as a matter fact, is picked to pieces and taken apart these days. Nothing is very sacred, is it? Interviewer: No, it doesn‟t seem to be. Was it different when you were growing up? Were there things that were held sacred? Mrs. Warner: It seems to me there were, yes. Interviewer: What are some of the things that … Mrs. Warner: Of course, out of getting the franchise grew the… right away the League of Women Voters Organization which has become a real political factor. Interviewer: Were you active in the development of that there in town? Mrs. Warner: Yes, um hum, I was one of the first presidents of the local chapter. Also the organizing of the Women‟s City Club. Women got active at that time and took a hand with things coming out of the effort-war effort. They liked it. They liked working, �9 strangely enough, and according…against all reports, women liked to work together. They worked together well. I‟ve never had any quarrels with anyone I worked with in any of the organizations and I‟ve been in many of them-many organizations, clubs and groups. There‟s always some that are not as pleasant as others but I don‟t think there‟s any more quarrels among women than there is among men. Men don‟t always get along too well that I„ve noticed. They‟re not always peace-keeping people. Don‟t you think we‟ve talked long enough on this now? Interviewer: Yeah, there are a couple of other questions I want to ask you but I‟m going to turn this tape over. It‟s about run out. Interviewer: You were just saying, you were just talking to me about the Grand Rapids Foundation and the fact that you‟ve been involved in that. Mrs. Warner: Yes, yes. Interviewer: Can you tell me a little about how it was started and, well, what it‟s…what the purpose of it was in the beginning and so on. Mrs. Warner: Yes, the Metz Estate was left to be used to found a foundation with the… income from which was to be spent in the community for charitable purposes. (Oh dear, there‟s the telephone.) And Mr. Hutchins knew a man in Cincinnati, I think it was, who had instigated a similar… started a similar foundation and he became interested in it and organized. The foundation was based on this one, the Quest and it had its directors appointed by the two federal judges, by the clearing house, by the Old Kent, and the National- the Grand Rapids National Bank, and by the Association of Commerce and one other. There were eight directors and it was all voluntary, I mean you were appointed. You were asked to serve…and served as long as you wanted to or as long as, well… there were such people as well names that you wouldn‟t even know now. Julius Amberg, who was David Amberg‟s father, a very prominent lawyer here and several furniture men-men that were connected with the business world and the appointments had to be accepted and gradually we got a little more money and it took hold and people became…got to know a little bit about it and we were left-the foundation was left- more and more money until our income could be spent more diversified. And we were always looking for a pioneering of projects. Not any continuous support except through the federated agencies, those that were in that. And then a certain portion of it was always devoted to scholarships. So that‟s the way the money was spent. Well, we were suddenly left the Wylie Estate which was about six million dollars. Interviewer: Now who was…who was the Wylie? Mrs. Warner: That was Curt, Curtis Wylie. The Wylie family was a very prominent family in Grand Rapids and Curtis was the son. I think Mr. Wylie‟s money came from lumber. As so much of the money… early days in Grand Rapids, the Blodgetts-and those, that money-that type of money-came from lumbering. And Mr. Wylie left a large estate. Well, Curtis Wylie was very well named. He was a very "wily" investor. He �10 was… he had a portfolio that was simply amazing. And he left it all to the Grand Rapids Foundation. Interviewer: Didn‟t he have any family? Mrs. Warner: No, he was never married. He had a sister and she is still living. And, I believe she plans to leave her portion-her estate-to the foundation and then other… we had many smaller bequeaths until we had quite a list of …they were always, they could be designated if you wanted the income spent. There was much, many were desig… number of designations for instance, at that time for crippled children because there was no state program for crippled children at that time. Since then it‟s… that is one difficulty about designating because the need becomes obsolete and then the money spent is tied up and we had quite a lot of money like that. And at last we went to…they went to court and got an order releasing quite a little of the income of those designated estates that had… where the need was gone. So the result is that the income that the bank handles, the trust company handles the estate the… principal and we, the foundation, simply spends the income and it‟s now two or three hundred thousand dollars a year, you know, that are spent in the community. Interviewer: Who was the Metz family that left the original request to establish the foundation? Mrs. Warner: I don‟t know much about the Metz family. The Metz Building, do you know that there‟s a Metz Building? Interviewer: It‟s being torn down now. Mrs. Warner: Yes. Well, they were… I don‟t… I can‟t tell you very much about them. I don‟t really know. Interviewer: Were there … now this Wylie, this Curtis Wylie left his fortune to the Grand Rapids Foundation. Has that been somewhat of a rare phenomenon in this town (for) people of great wealth leaving their substantial sums to the community for community betterment? Mrs. Warner: Yes, it‟s not… It‟s rather rare. Interviewer: Why is that, do you think? Mrs. Warner: I don‟t know. Now, for instance, I‟m surprised that there are a number of people of wealth interested in the art museum and yet I‟ve yet to know of a person who‟s left any substantial amount of money to it. They‟ll leave small sums or they will buy pictures or something of that kind, make gifts of that sort but they don‟t…I think it‟s strange I don‟t know why that is. I‟ve no idea. And, as a matter of fact, I don‟t know any longer where the money is. It‟s not people that I know and probably not people that you know that have… businessmen and people, names that wouldn‟t mean anything to me. �11 I‟m always interested in the organization of the Community Fund because at one time, as a matter of fact, I was the chairman of it once. Interviewer: of the… Mrs. Warner: believe it or not. Interviewer: Were you the first woman ever appointed to that? Mrs. Warner: Yes, and the only woman I guess that‟s ever been. And the people that worked for it, the captains and the whole line up of the people that worked for it aren‟t names that mean one thing to me anymore. Grand Rapids is quite a diversified city. Interviewer: Was it always that way? Mrs. Warner: No, it was furniture, furniture, furniture was where the money was; where the… that was the big industry and for years it was. Of course there‟s a group of people in Grand Rapids-the Dutch, the Hollanders-that‟s quite a large proportion of this community, as you probably know. [Of] Holland extraction-and the churches of-are many, many Lutheran and Christian Reformed and those churches and those people are all very thrifty and many of them are rich people. And many of them are public spirited, for instance, the Hekmans are and I could name others that are very public spirited and take their part-do their part. But, I really don‟t know why that is. Interviewer: You mentioned now before a little earlier about the wars. What kind of an effect did the First World War have on Grand Rapids? Mrs. Warner: Well, what do you… what do you mean effect? Interviewer: Well, was the city any different after the war than it was before or was it pretty much the same. Mrs Warner: No, it was pretty much the same. I don‟t think the First World War made as much change probably as the Second did. But the First World War, there was great feeling about it. There was terrible feeling against Germans. It was really very, very bad. Anything German, any name German… people they named-they changed names and they didn‟t play music-German music. And they were awfully prejudiced about the Germans and then, of course, when it came to the Second World War they were even more so. Because of the cruelty of… we‟ve never had in Grand Rapids a very large Jewish population but those who then… there were some quite prominent Jews in Grand Rapids at one time... [END OF SIDE 1] Mrs. Warner: …businessmen, business people, and the feeling was very strong, of course among them. And, there was always all the drives, all the bond sales and all that �12 sort of thing, always went over very well. People, people, were really quite… the old fashioned patriotism which seems to have, well, we haven‟t anything… had anything to be patriotic about as far as I‟m concerned. Interviewer: You mentioned that you were one of the organizers of the Women‟s City Club. Mrs. Warner: Yes. Interviewer: When was that club formed and why was it formed? Mrs. Warner: Well, it was formed by the Altrusa [Institute] group. That‟s a professional women‟s sort of a fraternity. And they thought that we ought to have a cultural and social club in Grand Rapids where women could get together and have programsworthwhile programs and all. And so a group of us took on the idea and organized… went and asked people if they thought they‟d like to belong to such an organization and we got quite an enthusiastic response. And at that time what is now the building on the corner of Monroe and Ionia that is the Morton Hotel and the branch of the Kent Bank was built-a new building. There were some old buildings there and that was torn down and this present building and the Morton House was very thriving… the hotels in Grand Rapids were always thriving because the furniture business brought so many buyers here and the exhibit that took place twice a year, July and January exhibit of furniture always brought lots of people. So hotel business was good and the Morton House was quite a busy place and in this new building-very splendid it was, we thought- they gave us, this group of women that were forming this social club… they gave us the use of the mezzanine for our club room in order to bring women into the hotel and they had a special lunch that was called the Women‟s City Club Lunch, special priced lunch and all. And we used that mezzanine to organize and then people joined just for the initiation fee and dues. The initiation fee was fifteen dollars and the dues were ten dollars a year. That‟s what we started on and we accumulated a goodly membership. Then we moved to a house that was next to the Park Congregational Church, the old Godfrey House which is now… there‟s a parking lot there. And we took that house and we opened… had a dining room where we had lunch and ran a regular social club with current events classes and that sort of thing. And that became too small for us so then two women who-Mrs. Dudley Waters, the first Mrs. Dudley Waters-who was a magnificent woman and a great worker and organizer and Mrs. Noyes Avery and a group of us began searching for a home, a permanent home. And we put out a sixty thousand dollar bond issue. And the Old Kent Bank took the bonds, they paid six percent and the bonds went very well. It was sold in no time. And with that capital we bought the present property that the City Club owns now, if you know where it is on Lafayette and Fulton. We bought that house and remodeled it into a club house. Interviewer: Isn‟t that rather unusual for a women‟s organization to float a bond issue? Mrs. Warner: Yes, quite unusual. Never heard of anything like that. �13 Mrs. Warner: Never heard of anything like that? Interviewer: No. Mrs. Warner: Well, the bonds were sold very promptly. And I remember very well, I was president of the Women‟s City Club. I was there, unfortunately, during the time during the depression. And we scraped bottom to get our bond issue. Some of our bonds came due and it never occurred to us that we didn‟t have to take them out. And we went down, our treasurer went down to the bank with the funds to take out the bonds and they looked at her, and they said: “Why you‟re the first person that‟s come in here with any such idea as that in a long time.” Well, we said that we had to do it, that was what we contracted for and the people that had the bonds, didn‟t want to give them up at all because six percent was pretty good. But we retired all our bonds as they came due, burned the mortgage. Interviewer: When was the club founded, when was it organized? Mrs. Warner: The club is now forty-five years old, you can figure that. Interviewer: Nineteen twenty-six, then? Mrs. Warner: Yeah. Interviewer: Well, was Ladies Literary Club a…? Mrs. Warner: Oh, that was an organization that had been going for a long time. That and the Saint Cecelia Musical Club were the two clubs that club women belonged to. That was before the war. That had been, I don‟t know how old the Ladies Literary Club is. And I don‟t know when that building was, when they built that building either. I belonged to it at one time but I was never very active in it because I was much more active in the Women‟s City Club. Interviewer: How were the two organizations different? Mrs. Warner: Well, we had, we maintained a dining room. The Literary Club is just an organization that meets once a week and listens to a speaker. Interviewer: Oh, I see. Mrs. Warner: But we have many activities in the Women‟s City Club. We have many classes of various activities. And always on Thursday a speaker, and then there‟s the Book Club and there‟s the French group and there‟s the Economic, people that are women that are interested in that, there‟s a leader for that, and the Bridge Club, bridge lessons. We‟ve always, we have quite a… and then there‟s the dining room with lunch every day and dinner. And dinner on Thursday night and special occasions and we‟ve always been in the black. In fact we have to…we‟re a tax-free organization because of �14 our cultural and educational activities, and we‟re not profit making. Our dining room-we always budget the dining room which is our one paying activity. We always budgeted a deficit for that, deliberately, in making up the year‟s budget. And every…. every committee has its allotted amount to spend and they spend it and they stay in it. And then every once in a while, we accumulate. Seidman & Seidman tells us that we‟ve accumulated too much backlog to stay… if we don‟t look out we‟ll have the tax collectors after us. So then we do some big project, some big expensive thing. Two years, two years ago, we bought parking. It is always a problem as it is for anything of that sort and our parking was entirely inadequate and people complained bitterly about it and we bought over adjacent to us, across the street from us on Lafayette, we bought two old houses and took them down and laid out a big parking lot there that we have a gate to it. You have to have a slug to go in-I mean a slug to come out. You can go in but you can‟t get out without a slug. And that was an expenditure of some... oh that cost well over a hundred thousand dollars, that project. But we had… we had to backlog for it. Another time, we did a complete new kitchen on our house. It was… we‟ve always been very thrifty. Interviewer: Well, I think we‟ve covered about everything. Mrs. Warner: Well, I think we‟ve covered a good many different angles of various things. I don‟t know that it was interesting at all to anyone but… Interviewer: Oh, I‟ve always wondered about the Ladies… the Women‟s City Club you know. Never, never, never been in the place. Mrs. Warner: No… Interviewer: Because I‟m a man I, it‟s always kind of a mysterious place. Mrs. Warner: Oh well, men are always welcome there. There we have lots of men there on…for Thursday night dinner and we often have what we…travelogues on Thursday nights. Members who have been on nice trips, give their, you know, show their slides and talk. Interviewer: Oh yeah. �15 INDEX A L Amberg, David · 9 Amberg, Julius · 9 Anthony, Susan B. · 5 Avery, Mrs. Noyes · 12 Ladies Literary Club · 13 Lafayette School · 3 Luce Furniture Company · 1 B M Berkey and Gay · 1 Bishop, Annie · 3 Bishop, Colonel Loomis K. Bishop · 3 Metz Building · 10 Metz Estate · 9 Morton Hotel · 12 Morton House · 12 C N Carswell, [G. Harrold] · 8 Corcoran Art School · 5 Nixon, Mrs. [Richard] · 8 F O First World War · 11 Old Kent Bank · 12 O-Wash-Ta-Nong Club · 4 G P Godfrey House · 12 Grand Rapids Foundation · 9, 10 Grand Rapids National Bank · 9 Park Congregational Church · 12 S H Hekman · 11 Saint Andrew’s Cathedral · 3 Saint Andrew’s School · 3 Saint Cecelia Musical Club · 13 K W Kent Country Club · 4 Waters, Mrs. Dudley · 12 Women’s City Club · 8, 12, 13, 14 Women's City Club · 12 Wylie Estate · 9 Wylie, Curtis · 9, 10 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e97c38db0fee360342746d6f149dff0a.mp3 cada579bd3688b014cb89f4293077fb6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_22-23Warner Title A name given to the resource Warner, Mary Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Warner, Mary Description An account of the resource Mary Shelly was born in Grand Rapids in 1888. She married David Warner in 1908. She became involved in the women's suffrage movement, was a leader in the Woman's City Club and a member of the Washtenaw Club and the Kent Country Club. She was also involved with various Grand Rapids foundations. She died on December 7, 1974. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/627d47331523b089fb1eaaf03a9eea86.pdf 879897e64026b6864a68dd24586739b8 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Siegel Judd Interviewed on September 28, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape # 20 & 21 (47:25) Biographical Information Siegel Judd was born Siegel Wright on 19 June 1895 in Leoti, Wichita County, Kansas, the son of Addison J. Wright. His parents died and he was adopted as an infant by his father’s sister and her husband, Lillian V. Wright and Edward C. Judd. Siegel died in Grand Rapids on 2 September 1982. Siegel was married to Dorothy S. Leonard 29 June 1922 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Dorothy was born 14 September 1898 in Grand Rapids, the daughter of Harry Carr Leonard and Willie Thomas Stansbury. Dorothy died 14 February 1989 at Porter Hills Presbyterian Village. ___________ Interviewer: This interview with Siegel Judd was conducted September 28, 1971. Interviewer: Let’s start with…about your family and so on. Were you…were you born in Grand Rapids? Mr. Judd: No, I was born out there in Leoti, Kansas about fifteen miles from the Colorado line… Western Colorado, Colorado line. And, you mean you want me to go on and tell what I just told you? Interviewer: Sure, that’s a good story. Mr. Judd: Well, my family, my ancestors came from western New York and came out when the Erie Canal was opened in eighteen thirty and came to Michigan in eighteen thirty-five, it was. And my ancestor at that time was a Continental Soldier and he’d been granted some land in Michigan that… what’s now in Alpine Township and so he came out here to farm it and he brought his seven sons and came down the Grand River on a raft. That’s the way others were coming in here at that time. You see, that wasn’t such a long time after this town was founded by Campau. I think it was in eighteen twenty-one or twenty-five, along in there. But there were many people coming from New York State. My family came out there and their names were Wright. You want me to tell that part of the story? Interviewer: If you want to. Mr. Judd: Well I don’t know as it makes a lot of difference… Interviewer: Okay. �2 Mr. Judd: That’s incidental really. But my father, who was a generation or two after the ancestor who came out here, wasn’t caring much for the farming life in Alpine Township so he and his two cousins-other Wrights-decided to go out to Kansas, [to] see what they could do out there in the way of taking up some land. And my father was in a little town-all three boys were-a little town called Leoti and my father married the school marm in the town, a very small village. And he… what should I say he was short lived out there because there was no doctor in the town and he’d taken sick and the town druggist, by mistake, gave him a dose of lignum which killed him and I was born about three months after he died and my mother died about three months after I was born and her sister was… she was the school teacher in this village and so my aunt here, a Mrs. Judd-my father’s sister, went out to Kansas and brought me back to Grand Rapids where I’ve lived all my life. And they formally adopted me and that’s why I have the name Judd instead of Wright. That’s … Interviewer: Where did you go to high school in Grand Rapids? Mr. Judd: Well, I went… we lived on the west side on Scribner Street and Tenth and I went to Turner Street School, which is still there, and Union School. At that time, Union School High School went to the tenth grade so when, when I got through the tenth grade I came over here to Central High School and then my family moved over here on the east side and I graduated from Central High School in ninteen fourteen. Then, I went with a couple of boys from… graduated at that time, we went out to Kansas to work in the wheat fields. Interviewer: Oh really? Mr. Judd: I can see where my father might not have liked that, too. But we worked all one summer and wound up in Saskatchewan, Canada, following the harvest up…know that’s a detail… but after that I went to Dartmouth to college. I was there three years when the First World War broke out and in May of nineteen seventeen everybody went to war. I mean everybody went down and enlisted. And I went to the Naval Training Station at Newport, Rhode Island and was in the Navy two, two and a half years. That was the first of the year and I don’t know if you want this detail, do you? Interviewer: That’s alright, you got out of the Navy and you went to… Mr. Judd: I got out of the Navy and I went to law school down in Ann Arbor. Then I came here and I practiced here ever since. I started in twenty-one and now it’s seventy-one – so that’s fifty years. Interviewer: You’ve specialized in corporate law. Mr. Judd: Almost entirely. Interviewer: Can you tell me about some of the early businesses in Grand Rapids-the lumber business for example and what happened to it? �3 Mr. Judd: Well, when I started practicing law in twenty-one, there were many lumber companies in Western Michigan and all north of here. And that was because there was a lot of virgin timber and they were all cutting it and, of course, selling this. And the way they marketed it they cut the timber and in the north got the…floated the logs down the Muskegon River and the Pere Marquette and the Grand River and that was the easiest way of transporting them. There wasn’t any railroads at that time. And then at the mouth of the rivers, sawmills sprung up and they’d saw the logs up into lumber and then, with the Great Lakes here, they could ship at very low cost this lumber all, like Chicago, Detroit, all around at much less cost than the railroads that were then coming in. And here in Grand Rapids, there were some sawmills but there were bigger ones at Spring Lake and also what is now Port Sheldon, there was a big, big mill there and a hotel. You wouldn’t think so now down there but there was and, as a matter of fact, after the town died because they ran out of raw materials to cut with and those towns just died out. But the pillars that you have on the Art Museum here were on one of the hotels at Port Sheldon. Interviewer: Is that right? Mr. Judd: That was supposed to be classical Greek hotel and architecture those were saved and brought up here. If you’re interested in that kind of detail it’s… Interviewer: How did these guys like Blodgett and some of the other families that made tremendous fortunes out of the lumber industry-how did they get the concessions to the land? Mr. Judd: They got ‘em from the government. It was easy to get them because the government wanted to develop the country and Grand Rapids-well the Blodgetts, for example, started way back in the seventies. Delos [Abiel] Blodgett came out here from Massachusetts, I think. And it’s been three generations of ‘em. Of course, now they haven’t any timber in Michigan to cut and, of course, the White-Friant Company was the big company. There were a lot of ‘em. Interviewer: Was that a local company? Mr. Judd: Yes, as a matter Friant’s house is that stone house up on the Northeast corner of Union and Cherry and one of our boys in here bought it-John Logie. Interviewer: Oh yes.. Mr. Judd: Of course, the Whites built that beautiful home up next to-well it’s part of Davenport School now-on the northeast corner of Prospect and Fulton. Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Judd: First, as the new office building was built in there and the next building east is the old White home. And, oh, there were a lot of lesser fortunes but those-the Whites were the big ones and, of course, the Blodgetts particularly. And the Blodgetts stayed in the timber business after it all cut off here and went out to California and now disposed of all their timber business. When they, just ‘til a few years ago, they had large holdings out in California, Northern California. �4 Interviewer: Well, are there any Whites and Friants still left in Grand Rapids? Mr. Judd: There’s only one White and there are no Friants that I know of but White, the founder of the business-the father-he had five sons and one of them is still here. And that’s Norton Rugee White who lives, I think, on Plymouth. He’s about the only one. Their mother was the cook in the lumber camp and she was a very energetic woman and when they made money, she moved the family to Grand Rapids and saw to it…are you interested in these details? Interviewer: Yes Mr. Judd: Mrs. White saw to it that her five sons were well educated. And the oldest one [Stewart Edward White] turned out to be a writer of quite some standing. He wrote novels, a lot of ‘em about the timber game-you can credit a lot of the history about the timber business…the lumber business from some of his books. He was a very popular writer. He had his stories in the Saturday Evening Post at the time when that was flourishing very much. He wrote a book called The Riverman. That was a pretty good book. I don’t know these details you care about but when you add that up you can cut these things out. But the second one was [Thomas Gilbert White]…she took him… he went to Paris and studied there at one of the art schools and he turned out to be quite a famous painter and was a great racketeer. And then she had a third son who she wanted to be a musician and she took him to Saint Petersburg, Russia, and he studied with Leopold Auer who was the great teacher of the violin at that time. He didn’t make the success, though, that the other two did. And then there were two more boys and Rugee is one of them. And then the other one, Vici, who was somewhat of a writer, too. But that was quite a family here at that time. None live here except Rugee. In fact, I think they’re all dead. Interviewer: Where did the Friant family go? Mr. Judd: I don’t know about the Friants too much. But they were partners in the White-Friant Lumber Company. Many of these lumbermen who lived here in Grand Rapids used to go out to California in the winter time. They had homes out there, Santa Barbara particularly. The Whites had it; I think the Friants did. Interviewer: Why did they choose California rather than Florida? Mr. Judd: Well, Florida wasn’t developed at that time. Florida really didn’t get started in any big way until the twenties. I went down there in nineteen twenty-three with…I don’t know whether you knew Harold Fletcher, the real estate man here or not… wanted to buy some land. And Harry Goodspeed who owned the real estate around-you’d be surprised how undeveloped that was at that time. The shore-beautiful shore-and quite a lot of cottages like there’d be along Lake Michigan. None of this large stuff but the jungle was right behind it. So that was late, but they went out to California because of the climate and it was a very fashionable thing to do. Interviewer: Well, when did the lumbering business here die? The lumbering business, did that had an effect on the development on the furniture industry here? �5 Mr. Judd: Oh sure. It furnished the raw material for the furniture factory and that’s why they started here. And I mentioned this water power being one natural resource-the lumber was another. Those two combined were the reason they had furniture companies start up here. Interviewer: Water power… could you review that a little bit? Mr. Judd: Well, the Grand River-called the Grand Rapids-meant there was a fall in the stream. There were rapids and those were up north of here. They manufactured, built power damsyou’ve seen how they work. There was a channel on each side of the river and the dams would shunt the water into those channels. The channels would go through wheels, you see, that would turn around and turn the machinery. And they also had on both sides of the rivers… they just recently wound up the last one and that’s with the Voigt Milling Company-they had a milling flour mill over on what was then Bridge Street but now is Michigan over on the west side and another one down here at Pearl Street. The mills have been taken down now but…so you see the water power was good to grind the wheat into flour, too. And so we had up here the Lilly White Flour Mill. I don’t know whether you ever heard of that and then there was the Voigt Milling Company, and Blue Ribbon or something of that sort. But that was the power, too, and now when the power was giving out, I mean when there was less water in the Grand River, there was less water because they cut away the trees. When they cut away the trees, you let the water all run off in the spring when the snow melts and it goes off in a hurry and then the rest of the time you haven’t got this full head of water like you do when the woods are there and it melts and gradually runs off. So that’s how it gradually gave out and so the furniture companies that had been built along there got into steam plants and burned coal and generated power by that method. Water power passed practically out of existence. And where the Rowe Hotel is down there was the end of the-no it wasn’t either-it was down on Pearl Street. I was going to say the canal but these furniture factories were built right over the canals. They’d have these wheels that the waters passed by would turn. Interviewer: Well, in other words… Mr. Judd: Just the regular fashion that they did in old days. Everywhere, you got water. Interviewer: In other words, all along the canal where the canal began to where it ended… Mr. Judd: That’s right. Interviewer: …there were furniture businesses built along the river? Mr. Judd: That’s right-and these flour mills too. Interviewer:: Yes. Were they… ? Mr. Judd: …but mainly for furniture. Interviewer: Were those on both the east and the west side of the river? �6 Mr. Judd: Well, the flour mills-yes-the Lilly White was right where the post office is now and the Voigt Mill had two. They had one up across the bridge and in those days it was a covered wooden bridge with a covered roof, you know, like you used to see in New Hampshire and up there. Interviewer: When did those furniture factories come down-the ones that were right along the river here? Mr. Judd: When did they start? Interviewer: No, when were they torn down? Mr. Judd: Well, they kind of died off during the depression in the thirties. The factors that caused it was the loss of water power and it was more expensive then to generate power by steam and the natural resources cut off. I mean most of it had been harvested up north. And then, thirdly, is the invasion, you might say, of the automobile business where they would pay higher wages than was paid in the furniture business. And the furniture business up until just fairly recently has been a lower wage paying business. And so the boys in the next generation-their fathers went into the automobile game or businesses that made parts for automobiles-and that still goes. Lot of… Interviewer: Lot of automotive-related industry in Grand Rapids? Mr. Judd: Oh yes, oh yes, sure-and there’s any number of parts people around. Even the Keeler Brass Company, a very successful brass company, they make metal parts for automobiles-do a lot of business with Ford-not just…they started up to make brass fittings to go on the furniturelike drawer pulls… Interviewer: Oh yes. Mr. Judd: …that sort of thing. And they did a fine job of this. In fact, they went and manufactured for other furniture centers, too. There, you see, were not any furniture factories in the south that amounted to anything and this was the town that made the quality furniture the furniture business-and still is but there’s very little of it left. Interviewer: Now, why did the furniture companies move south-a lot of these companies? Mr. Judd: Well, they got lower labor rates, you see. Interviewer: Oh. Mr. Judd: In North Carolina, they were near a source of supply. There is lumber down there but not many of the hard woods we had up here and they didn’t have the competition for labor that the automobile industry gave to the furniture industry. And that’s about it Interviewer: Yes. �7 Mr. Judd: Also, the furniture industry was hard hit by the depression of the thirties and a lot of my law business at that time was helping furniture people to get cash to get money to keep going. And, you see, their sales dropped off in the depression. People didn’t have the money to buy furniture and then when they thought…saw a chance to start up…why, they needed money and I don’t know about telling you about myself but we did the log business, too, so I got learned about the RFC which is a Reconstruction Finance Corporation in Washington that Hoover started before Roosevelt was elected, for the purpose of making loans to industry and commercial companies. See, everybody needed money in the depression. And so I went down to Washington and got a charter to form one for Michigan. And this was a corporation down there that made these loans, like the government loans people today, but the method then was through corporations that they could control. So I got a charter and got a couple of bankers here who were unemployed because of the bank holiday to look after it and we made loans to any number of companies that suffered during the thirties or when the banks closed. Not just around Grand Rapids but all around here. Greenville, over there the Gibson Furniture Company, furniture companies down in Holland and many of the furniture companies here-the Luce Furniture Company, you remember that one? It was a large one down on Godfrey Avenue. And Berkey and Gay but they never…-we got all our money back for the government by about the time the war started but they were all financially weak and we got money for them with this company and of course it made law business, too. Had to run down to Washington with all these loans and get ‘em approved down there. There was a lot tighter control in those days when the government was helping out than it seems to me that there are today when the government is making these loans. But there… that was a new thing for the government to step in and help private industry. Today, it’s expected but then it was surprising. Interviewer: Um hum. Mr. Judd: So we were…that way we got quite a few clients ‘cause they stayed with us after we kept ‘em alive. That may be beside the point but… Interviewer: It’s a… Mr. Judd: But gradually, you see, some local manufacturers went down to North Carolina because of the labor rate advantage and they got competition from people who were already down there and these people-because of the low rate or wage paying industry, why, they didn’t get people that cared to go into it. They wanted to go into higher [paying] work for General Motors or work for Chrysler or somebody with…or some companies that are furnishing products to them. Interviewer: What were-besides the furniture industry-what were some of the other businesses here that were thriving, perhaps, around the turn of the century up until… Mr. Judd: Well, there was… there were a number of wholesale houses we called ‘em. That is they’d be like, well, there’s not really any left today but there were companies that would buy quantities of household things and household products and also products needed in business in connection with the lumbering up north and so forth. Grand Rapids in that period was quite a �8 distributing point of merchandise of that kind. And these companies, well, there was the Worden Grocery Company. They would buy large quantities of groceries and sell ‘em to the little grocers on the street corners and they would step in between the manufacturers of the food products and the small grocers. There were no chain stores then, you see. There was no Kroger or people like that around. There’s just these little grocery stores in the neighborhoods. Do you remember that or don’t you go back that far? Interviewer: No, I don’t go back that far. Mr. Judd: Oh, sure. Your mother would tell you here’s a dimem go down to the grocery store on the corner and get two loaves of bread or something like that. We were always running to stores like that and that was small business. But these wholesale houses would buy large quantities and they would ship farther north. We worked sort of the beginning of the north and of course there was a demand for food and household products ‘cause the people were building houses north and these lumber camps were big buyers, you see, or customers. Dorothy’s father or grandfather, Mr. Leonard, he used to travel up to the… he told me he’d travel up to the lumber camps north of here and sell ‘em lamp chimneys and oil lamps and all sorts of things like that, kitchenware… Interviewer: How many men would be in a camp like that up north? Mr. Judd: I don’t know, but they were pretty large and they were a pretty rough and tough customers, too. They’d be up there in the woods, get down here Saturday night and it used to be a big night in Grand Rapids and they used to see some pretty rough times in those days. Interviewer: Do you remember any of that? Mr. Judd: Yes, some, when I lived on the west side. Of course we had a lot of saloons. There wasn’t much. Well, there was whiskey drunk, too, but there were a lot of saloons. Down here on this corner of Michigan and Monroe there were a saloons on each corner except this near corner and that was a drug store. But that was the same thing as a saloon really in those days, too. And it was, well …the hotels did a big bar business. Everybody…Morton and Sweets Hotel which is what later became Pantlind Hotel… When the boys came in from the north, stay a week or so. Why, there was a lot going on. Man: What, when you were…you grew up on the west side predominantly…? Mr. Judd: Yes. Man: When you came over to the east side to… Mr. Judd: Central… Interviewer: Central High School, that was in the tenth grade? Mr. Judd: Yes, I went in the eleventh and twelfth grades �9 Interviewer: Was the east side considered like that-where Central School is up on the hill and the homes in the Hill District was. Was that considered very fashionable? Mr. Judd: Oh yes. Interviewer: Was there… Mr. Judd: Yes, they used to call it-some used to call it-Quality Hill... that was, some of the residents. I remember Mr. Booth, Ted Booth’s father, who lives on Fountain Street there and his pictures of his house was in the paper the other day. Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Judd: …beautiful house. I think Mr. Shelby built it. Remember Mr. Booth used to always refer to it as Quality Hill. And his son, Ted, was in high school when I was and that’s how I happened to hear his father say that because we got around his house once in a while. He was a very fine man but that was the attitude and it was entirely justified. That whole area out there was beautiful. Now that Stickley House-I haven’t heard that mentioned much but that’s the house on Prospect between Fountain and Fulton. It’s one of the high…of these large white pillars and yellow brick. Now, Stickley was a furniture manufacturer, too, and he had a big business and he built that beautiful home but his business didn’t survive the depression of the thirties. It wasn’t one of the companies that we found a loan for but he had a hard time and just went out of business. And it was by that time, see, the late thirties,. they were beginning to feel the competition of North Carolina so they and those boys weren’t as young as they had been and their sons didn’t care about the business but there wasn’t the incentive either to keep it going. Interviewer: Did that happen very often where businesses were started by… Mr. Judd: Oh yes, they were family institutions. Families from generation to generation handed ‘em down but they say in the thirties a furniture business wasn’t attractive to the young men with ambition. I don’t know as I ought to say that, what else, there were other things that offered more reward, I think. And they felt that way now you see. Or the families sort of died out or the Widdicombes, their younger generation, went East to school. One of them went to London and they got away from here. And there was the Gunn Furniture Company-they made showcases and library cases. Still, you can see that up near the so-called junction on Ann Street. That was a flourishing business until the First World War and Mr. Gunn, the owner, who was the son of the founder, went to England to live and lived in London for quite a while and his right-hand man, Mr. Homiller, who’s a very capable manufacturer, ran the show and Mr. Gunn didn’t come back ‘til the First World War got going, came over here. He’s abroad…lived there. He’s very well. So… and his son didn’t have any interest in it and so that was sold and then there’s this Kent Furniture, Imperial Furniture Company up near Ann Street-the red brick one. The Foote family built that and they did a big business. But, it’s the Depression-hurt all those and they really never got going again for one reason or another… �10 Interviewer: Well, was there any … one thing I don’t want to forget is you said before that your mother would give you a dime and tell you to run down to the corner grocery store and there weren’t any chain stores at the time. Mr. Judd: Oh no, there weren’t. Interviewer: At that time were there more a neighborhood shopping areas than there are today? Mr. Judd: Oh yes, well, you see, yes in every… well I’ll take where I lived. There was a drug store-or not a drug store-well, on Sixth Street was quite a little center-commercial center-with a drug store on Sixth Street and Broadway. And there was a meat market and a grocery store on Sixth Street and Scribner and up at Eighth Street which was... . I think it was another grocery store and Leonard Street was quite a busy street on the West Side up there. There was, oh, meat markets and grocery stores and some little dry good places and cobblers who… that sort of thing. Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Judd: And then Bridge Street, of course, here was… that’s Michigan…that was a busy street on the west side. That was commercial all the way out, but, yes, it…over where I lived at Eleventh Street, which is one block up Broadway, there was a grocery store-a lot of little stores like that. But they… the twenties and the, well, really the thirties-places kind of went out of business because they couldn’t compete with these larger concerns. Interviewer: Were there well-to-do families living on the west side? Mr. Judd: Oh yes. There were these German families that I mentioned… all did well. And they had nice homes. And, let’s see, Scribner Street was quite a street but as far as fine homes are concerned, near us there was a very fine home just south of Tenth Street on Scribner. We lived on the corner of Tenth and Scribner. Built by a man named Chick and he was representative of a man in Boston, an investor who had sent Chick out here to look after his interest in the plaster mines, you know. That was developing… going pretty well. It still is going. It belongs to U.S. Gypsum but [James W.] Converse spent…invested quite a lot of money out in Michigan and that man, Chick, had a beautiful home and saddle horses and all that. That was on Scribner Street. Doesn’t look like much now. Then right behind it on Turner Street, I keep thinking that a family was Alt but it wasn’t, but they had a beautiful home and, at that day, an oval glass plate. Oval front door was the thing and a large oval glass there and, of course, curtains behind it-but they were nice homes. Not like on the hill here but, as a matter of fact, originally Front Street over here started to be a good residential street in the early day of Grand Rapids-up at First Street and Second Street and along in there. They used to be, when I was a kid, some lovely homes there-and there were post Civil War homes. And some of them were a lot of sandstone homes that were very attractive homes. But when industry got going strong, why, they moved out. Interviewer: Was that the reason why the west side… Mr. Judd: Kind of lost out as far as keeping with…wasn’t a quality hill but it was quality people though. Some, lot of them at that time, lived over there but moved over… �11 Interviewer: Why did, why did these German families that were doing well in the machinery work, for example, why did they continue to live on the west side? Mr. Judd: Well, they did. Although later they moved over here but they…it was near their factories and those days you didn’t have an automobile, you know. You walked to work and… Interviewer: Well, when you came to school on the east side, was there any kind of social discrimination against… Mr. Judd: No, it was alright. There wasn’t anything of the sort. In fact, all the kids from Union came over here to finish up their last two years. And it wasn’t long that way but when they got that in then they built a larger school and… or built for more kids anyway. And then, also, they increased Union’s so you could stay there and graduate from Union. The building you see there now was being built when I moved over on the east side. I mean, the large red brick building, of course, now today it’s way out on the hill I guess, isn’t it? Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Judd: …on the west side. Interviewer: When you moved to the east side, was that after you were married? Mr. Judd: Oh no, it was when I was just came to the tenth, eleventh grade over here… my family moved over at the same time and we lived down on Waverly Place. The house is gone now but the Waverly Place is a little street one block up from Jefferson Avenue off State Street. It just runs one block. It’s an awful dump down in there now. But at that time, the White family-you know how Washington Street comes down to Jefferson and State comes in and makes a point there-at that time, the White Family had a very beautiful home of their own in that triangle. They hadn’t moved up on Quality Hill yet but they were very wealthy people. Interviewer: Why… Mr. Judd: That’s why I knew some of the boys because we were living on Waverly and the White family were all brought up on that triangle down there not up on top of the hill where I told you that house is now. That’s kind of an English-type house. Interviewer: Well, I guess Jefferson Avenue at one time was a very fashionable… Mr. Judd: Well, it had beautiful trees and, oh yes, it was very fashionable and also Sheldon Street was, too. I’m talking about… (I’ve got a husky voice here, sorry)… up to nineteen ten, that Fulton Street across from the park was very nice before they built the Metz Building and the…what’s the name of the building, the Lorraine Building on the corner of LaGrave. Where Jacobson’s is now, was a beautiful stone house with brass railings and polished up and the man that lived there was a lawyer and looked like Charles Evans Hughes and his-what was his name … can’t think of it but, anyway, he-man of great dignity and he represented one of the railroads �12 that were in here then. Then he represented a trolley line, too. I foreclosed the trolley line. We wound it up when, about nineteen thirty-three or four…when they went off the streets. The trolley business was a fine business for a long time. Also in Grand Rapids makes me think this… the utility business started to develop about the turn of the century… I mean, the gas light and electric business and so forth. We had quite a number of entrepreneurs in Grand Rapids who started utility companies and did very well internationally and the Hodenpyl-Hardy people were in the Michigan Trust as officers under Mr. Withey. And power companies started here and there were three groups that did very well. There was this… these two boys from the Michigan Trustthe names were Hodenpyland Hardy-and they started and collected or started little gas companies around the small towns and they got it growing into Consumers Power and then they built the trolley lines ‘cause they generating power they could power dams. At that time, we had a lot of water and the streams, you see, and the rivers- it’s all they had. They were generating electric power again with these canals. And so they had more power than they could sell so they started these inter-urbans, too, electric inter-urbans. I don’t know whether you remember those but that was the inter-urban line from Grand Rapids to Muskegon, Grand Haven, and an electric train and they ran to Kalamazoo and all around. They started in the early nineteen hundreds and they were financed with twenty year bonds and I was not practicing law when those bonds were gotten out but had something to do with foreclosures, though, when the bonds came due. Why they… the automobiles had licked the inter-urban so that they went out business. And the bonds had… we had to foreclose them and, in other words, that industry or the inter-urbans between cities and electric cars that ran just about lasted as long as the twenty year bonds and that was all. And then when they went out of business. The Holland inter-urban, I foreclosed on that, sold all the assets, sold the rails to Broady. I don’t know whether you ever heard of Broady but he was a junk dealer, a very wealthy junk…his son and all of ‘em lived over on the east, moved over on the east side when they got some money. And… but these, these men that built up Consumers Power and they went down to New York and lived there. They’re not living now but they went down there because that was a source of the money to finance and build these things. Consumers Power was one, then there was a fellow here named…a Hollander here named [John A.] Hulswit who did the same thing. He had a traction lines and electric light companies in…out in Iowa and around in Ohio and built up a big picture and, of course, he moved to New York to finance it, too. But many of them started here and then, of course, Joe Brewer-I don’t know whether you’ve heard of him but he’s more recent. He built up a picture and companies he started with a little one, the Holland Gas Company, down here and collected, well, his best one was the Indianapolis Light and Power which is one of the fine utilities today and then he sold it all to Insull in the twenties when Samuel Insull was mopping up the universe buying all the utility companies and blew up higher than a kite in twenty-nine. But, I just saying about the history of Grand Rapids, we had people who got into new industries, developed here and elsewhere. That’s… it’s kind of unusual that a town this size would have people who built up such large companies from practically nothing in a new industry, you see. Interviewer: Do you feel that… that time has been and still is somewhat of a characteristic of Grand Rapids? Mr. Judd: There isn’t today anybody that seceded it to those people. No, because there those pictures were big enough so that their main offices were not in Grand Rapids any longer. They moved away, they moved Consumers Power down to Jackson because it was more central. It �13 was on the… then as important as the railroad line too, see we were kind of a branch off from Jackson, so there, that’s their headquarters but we’ve had people that have really built up businesses and constructive people, I think. This has been a very good town. Probably taking a hell of a lot of your time but I … Interviewer: No, that’s alright. Mr. Judd: I could dig up a lot of stuff if you wanted to. Interviewer: Oh. I have one last question for you. What do you think that…what, when you were growing up in Grand Rapids-the way the pace of life and style of life was then compared to today- what was it that changed everything? What was it that ended that era, so to speak, and brought on the era that we’re into today? Mr. Judd: Oh, well, you mean talking about the economics? Man: Yes Mr. Judd: Or the social… Interviewer: Well, the economics certainly have a lot to do with the social, I think. Mr. Judd: Of course, what’s been a great contributor, I think, is the automobile. Because when I was in high school, I’ll say, Henry Ford starting out with a low priced car. You could buy a car for around five hundred dollars. His first cars and, of course, he got this idea of having one model and nothing else in a straight line production and interchangeable parts and that sort of thing. And the early cars were custom made really...the Pierce Arrows and the great big ones around and he made it-made cars that were within the reach of really poor people .And then they got on the road and that, of course, the demand for roads and the automobile industry is, I think, practically runs the country today. It even cuts up your cities like we’re getting Plymouth Road cut up pretty soon, I’m afraid. It’s change, it’s changed the life. Of course, it’s changed the pace because people, you see, when I was a boy had horses and carriages to get around. Everybody didn’t have those but that was what they had on Quality Hill up and around and …the grocery men had it and your father had ‘em. Was he your grandfather? Interviewer: My grandfather? Mr. Judd: Grandfather, yes. I remember he was chief competition, I think, over there with a German named [Jacob] Rauschenberger. Did you ever hear of him? On Turner Street, but the pace was slow and you didn’t have the sense of urgency you’ve got today. And it was very nice and … but on the other hand, there’s a lot of good things brought with what we’ve got now, too. Sorry I have this cold, I… Interviewer: That’s alright, I think we can end right there anyway. �14 L B Blodgett Family · 3 Booth, Mr. · 9 Leonard, Mr. (Grandfather-in-law) · 8 R C Reconstruction Finance Corporation · 7 Consumers Power · 12, 13 S F Shelby, Mr. · 9 Friant Family · 4 V G Voigt Milling Company · 5 Gunn Furniture Company · 9 W K White Family · 3, 4 Widdicombe Family · 9 Withey, Mr. · 12 Worden Grocery Company · 8 Wright, Addison J. (Father) · 1, 2, 4, 9 Keeler Brass Company · 6 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/23a8cf6901908a91eae8bfc4fad527ff.mp3 ef6fcb382a950649cd37ddcd660c0910 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_20-21Judd Title A name given to the resource Judd, Siegel Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Judd, Siegel Description An account of the resource Siegel Judd was born Siegel Wright; after his parents died, his father's sister and her husband adopted him. Mr. Judd attended Dartmouth College and served in the navy during WWI. He married Dorothy Leonard in 1898. He went to law school, specializing in corporate law, and was involved in the lumber business. He died in 1982. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/aa3d4b9750ee64551215126b8fa131b7.pdf 39dab203a8b5fbaba993c1bbe32e0f43 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Cary, John Interviewed on September 27, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #18 & 19 (1:08:16) Biographical Information John Cornelius Cary was the son of Cornelius “Neal” Cary and Julia A. Lynch. Neal Cary was born in Vergennes Township, Kent County in January 1861, the son of Patrick Cary and Catharine Boylen. Julia was born in October 1861 in Kent County, Michigan, the daughter of Jeremiah Lynch and Julia Harrington. Neal married Julia Lynch in Grand Rapids on 27 October 1896. John C. Cary was born 2 October 1897 in Grand Rapids. About 1926, he married Helen M. Wren. Helen died 6 June 1972 and John passed away five years later on 1 June 1977. They are buried in Woodlawn Cemetery in Grand Rapids. ___________ Interviewer: Were you born in Grand Rapids, Mr. Cary? Mr. Cary: Yes, I was, in October second, eighteen ninety-seven on, what was then, Central Avenue, now Sheldon Street. And it was the fifth house north of Fifth Avenue, so called at that time, now Franklin Street. It was on the east side of the street, and the house was torn down some eight, ten years ago, the entire area from Franklin Street, north to Sycamore and Sheldon, east of Jefferson, has been completely torn down, for a new project either a housing development project or an extension of the Sheldon Complex. When I was five years old we moved from there to a house on the west side of Cass Avenue between Hall and Delaware. Dr. Long, who was quite a prominent physician in the South End as it was called in the south part of Grand Rapids, it was, lived on the corner, the southwest….or the northwest corner of Cass Avenue and Delaware. It was called Eighth Avenue then, under the old numbering system. And next to us was a Mrs. was the VanderVelde family, and she was a half-sister of Adrian Otte, who, with his brother John Otte, organized the American Laundry Company, which was existing then on Division, at the corner of Haifley and Division. We lived there from the time I was five years old until I graduated from the law school at the University of Michigan in nineteen twenty-two. Interviewer: Were your parents born in Grand Rapids? Mr. Cary: My mother, yes. My mother was born blessed Julia Lynch. She was a part of the Irish laboring people who built what was called the South Railroad into Grand Rapids. I‟ve never been able to determine what they meant by the South Railroad, but I think it was the Grand Rapids and Indiana Railroad. Those Irish laborers who worked on the railroad, and I had an uncle, Timothy Lynch, who was sort of a section boss of those people who laid the tracks and ties and spiked „em and so on. A group of them settled in the southwest part of Grand Rapids. My grandfather had an opportunity to buy some land around the swamp, which is, was located about where the Union Depot was subsequently built which is no more because of the expressway. But he wanted to be on the high ground so he bought five acres from Noyes Avery, �2 I can‟t tell you the year but it was before my mother was born in eighteen fifty-nine and built a house, which still exists on Jerome Street running north of Burton on the high hill east of the railroad tracks as they cross there. Interviewer: And the house still stands? Mr. Cary: The house still stands. Not on the original site, subsequently my mother and father platted that into the Lynch-Cary addition, and it was moved to the corner of Jerome Street, and it was called Jerome Street because the city wouldn‟t allow my mother to name it Jeremiah, which was my Grandfather‟s given name. And, so, mother was born there in eighteen fifty-nine, and then my father was born in Sect.., on Section seven of Vergennes Township. My grandfather, Patrick Cary, also by legend, was, did some work, or worked on the Erie Canal, came through into Ohio and was, lived there for a short period and, in eighteen forty or eighteen forty-two when he entered some sections in for Vergennes Township, Section seven, parts of section, I should say he gave his residence as Marshall, Michigan. The only connection that I can get to that is that he was a laborer on the, what is now, the Michigan Central, or Penn Central Railroad running from Detroit thru Ann Arbor, Jackson, Battle Creek, Marshall, Kalamazoo into Niles and into Chicago. Sometime after that he moved and settled on the land in Vergennes Township and my father was born there in eighteen sixty-one and lived there until he became a young man, came to Grand Rapids and went to work for the Judson Grocery Company and alternately as a shipping clerk, ultimately he became what they called in those days, a broom peddler. He was a traveling salesman for the Judson Grocery Company, and his territory was from White Cloud on the Pere Marquette to Thompsonville north, and from Reed City on the GR & I to Cadillac and west of Lake Michigan including Ludington, Baldwin, Wallahalla, Sherman, Scottville, Mesick and many towns that were built because the lumbering industry which existed. Interviewer: Was the Judson Grocery Store, was that the wholesale house? Mr. Cary: Yes. It was located at right as I, my earliest recollection of it was at the corner of Ottawa and Louis Street, more close to the corner. Subsequently, Mr. Judson built the building [now the B.O.B.] on Market Street just off from the corner of Fulton and that building was operated by the Judson Grocery Company until about nineteen twenty-seven or twenty-eight and after Mr. Judson‟s death, who was a very staunch ardent Republican, it was sold to William Cady and William Cady operated it there and subsequently on Jefferson Avenue in the old Wilmarth, Welch-Wilmarth Showcase Factory, on Jefferson, east of Macey‟s and at the railroad, Pere-Marquette railroad tracks. I think your grandfather and McInerney subsequently occupied some part of that area for his client before he moved to Godfrey Avenue as a result of a fire. Interviewer: Was there, you‟re an Irishman? Mr. Cary: Yes Interviewer: Did the Irish have a kind of particular area in the town that they lived in? Mr. Cary: Yes. There were two predominately Irish settlements. The Irish immigration to Grand Rapids was the first economic, ethnic migration. By that I mean that the German migration to Grand Rapids was the first ethnic group, was a political migration; they didn‟t want their sons to be a part of the imperial German Army that Bismarck had invented. The whole [exolerance?] were planning for Germany and so the German migration was to Grand Rapids, �3 was similar to the one to Cincinnati, Milwaukee, St. Louis and so on. So that, that is why the two most prominent department stores in Grand Rapids carry German names, Herpolsheimer and Wurzburg, and they were a part of that early migration and their migration was not because the economic conditions. The Irish migration was and they were the common laborers of the United States at that time. And the railroads were being built at that time and the Irish built the railroads. And the two prominent places in Grand Rapids were the area around the D & M Depot at Plainfield and the, what had got to the railroad got that far, the Irish who did, worked for the railroad settled in the area around Leonard, Plainfield, Carrier and all of that territory there. And I, it‟s an assumption on my part, that St. Alphonsus church, was erected in that area because of the fact that the Irish-Catholic people who lived in that area. The other Irish settlement was as a result of the railroads coming in from the south as I spoke of before and they settled in what was the First Ward, which was around Ellsworth, Grandville around Number Six Engine House, over there and up Grandville Avenue there. And also, along Clyde Park from Grandville south and most of those people had large families and to supplement their economy they had several of them had five acres running from Clyde Park through to Century and at that time Century, when I went out to visit my grand uncles out on Clyde Park Avenue there was no Century Avenue and subsequently after the Rathbone Mantle and Fireplace [Manufacturing] was erected on Clyde Park Avenue which would now be a little south of where the Kelvinator plant is and after the Leonards moved their ice-box manufacturing place to what is now the Kelvinator, why the Irish plotted those areas, and that‟s why you have Holmes Street, Lynch Street and you get streets that up there Shamrock and Emerald and McKendrick, various other real Irish names. For many years Thirty-Sixth Street or Thirty or Forty-Fourth Street was called Daly and the Dalys and the Lynches were intermarried and I can‟t tell you the relationship of the Dalys, but they had a large farm and near where the Reynolds plant is now, which was the heart of the site of the old gas[?] plant, which was a started building during the First World War, and never got finished. [Louis Lynch in 1893 married Julia Daly in Grand Rapids.] Interviewer: Well what was the downtown, what did you do as a child? You mentioned that you, kind of hung around the streets, were kind of an urchin, what…. Mr. Cary: Well I, I didn‟t decay around the streets, my parents wouldn‟t let me, but as a kid and I‟m sure, I was six years old, I went to St. Andrews school, which was then at the corner of Maple and Sheldon, and from our house on Cass Avenue to there was a mile and a quarter and we walked it four times a day, „walked‟ is used in bicycling because it was probably running not to be late, and I don‟t think that there was a fence in any of that area that I or my companions hadn‟t jumped, in one way or another by being chased out of the yard or because we were in a hurry. And, but some of the other people that lived in that area were Bill Morrissey and his brother Leo, who died while the boys were in school. Bill Morrissey became the owner of the Fanitorium and he was a fight promoter and recreation and built up recreation facilities in Grand Rapids as he came to manhood following the First World War. Another family who was from that area and were closely associated with Morrissey was the Pipp family, who were very large, had a very large family. The older boy, Ben, became a priest, I don‟t know whether he was a secular priest or he belonged to an order, I‟ve forgotten that, but his brother, Wally, became a member of the New York Yankees, played first base and was pushed out of his job by the famous Hank Gehrig. And Wally was in, and I met him in, at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, when we were both in the Naval Flying Corp and there were several of the New York Yankees in the ….well… We studied at M.I.T., but it would probably to designate it �4 would, would say it was what was ground school now in the Naval period of the Second World War and he was there and a fellow by the name of [Leslie] Nunamaker was there and on both the False Armistice on the fourth of November in nineteen eighteen and then the real one on March eleventh, nineteen eighteen in my particular squad, marching in the parade in Boston, at that time, was a famous baseball player by the name of Tris Speaker. You want to shut that off a minute? Interviewer: Sure. Did you see the, what was the former Post Office, which is now the Federal Building? Mr. Cary: Yes. Interviewer: Did you see that dedication? The dedication of that building? Mr. Cary: Yes. Yes. Interviewer: Can you tell me about that, why you were there and so on? Mr. Cary: Well, I was there because it was, we were let out of school and we were let out of school to go to that affair and it was a real civic celebration for Grand Rapids to have a building as nice as that and so on. I, of course, had no conception that it was a nice building, at that time. There were other kids there and people of prominence were there and we were probably making nuisances of ourselves, crowding in and so on to watch of course. Teddy Roosevelt was, was a national and international figure of those days and his experience and his fame as a Rough Rider were carried by every youngster of that time. And to have his daughter in town for an affair of that kind was a real event. There was also Vice-President Sherman, was here for that affair. And it was Sunny Jim, so called, “Sunny Jim” Sherman, former senator from New York, and not John Sherman, the brother of William Tecumseh Sherman, the general, who was in the Senate and who was in the Congress of the United States, from the time in the Civil War until his death, which I, it was after the turn of the century, but I don‟t remember just when. Interviewer: Why, you mentioned to me before when we were talking that the sisters down at St. Andrews had something against Alice Roosevelt. What, what was that? Mr. Cary: Well, at that time, cigarette smoking by women was a real evil thing; many people thought it was that. And Alice Roosevelt had a reputation at that time as being a cigarette smoker, and she smoked in public. She was always one, and still is, too, she is quite famous for her vitriolic remarks of one kind or another, about a Governor Dewey of New York and some of the other national figures that she didn‟t completely care for, and she was not one to take a back seat and if she wanted to smoke cigarettes, why she smoke cigarettes. And it made it was long worth from Cincinnati, she had money enough to smoke cigarettes when she wanted to. Interviewer: Was there a common, a common thing in those days, for like for example, the dedication of a federal building, to have a city-wide celebration? Mr. Cary: Yes and they….Grand Rapids was predominately a Republican community and whether it was a result of the Civil War or not, I don‟t know, but it was predominately Republican. And the Coliseum which was built by Heystek on Commerce Street between Oakes and Cherry along about nineteen seven or eight and [Charles] Jandorf, who had a delicatessen �5 store on Monroe Avenue would be just immediately west of Peck‟s Drug Store, which was at, was at the corner of Division and Monroe at the northwest corner, was the caterer for most of those affairs. And they would have the William Alden Smith, who was a senator after nineteen seven, priding himself on bringing some of the most famous and popular Republicans to the Lincoln-Day banquets of that time. And my father because of Mr. Gibson‟s prominence in the Republican Party was probably given tickets to those banquets, usually held on Friday night, when he would come in off his northern route with a [ ?]. You know that my father wasn‟t enough of a political person to have spent the, the money that was charged for those, there were six of us children, and he just didn‟t have that kind of money to pay for affairs of that kind. Interviewer: The Coliseum, is that still standing? Mr. Cary: Yes. It‟s, it‟s mentioned in the downtown Grand Rapids eighteen thirty – nineteen ten, I think it was the Heystek building. It was, you guess, it was at, it was originally, its site was there on Commerce. Sometime later they acquired some property on Division Street and an annex was built out to Division, but for, from its inception for many years thereafter, it was on Commerce Street. And as kids, on Saturday morning, and that‟s true of most of the kids that, that went to Central, Division Avenue School, St. Andrews, Fountain Street School, in those schools, who were all fifteen [to] sixteen years of age, would go to the Coliseum on Saturday morning to roller skate. It was a real recreation spot, at that particular time. Interviewer: Was there much difference between the downtown of those days and the downtown of today? Mr. Cary: Not much really. They, Grand Rapids was always a one-street town, Monroe Avenue. And it used to, I would imagine that they used to drive carriages down Monroe Avenue to show off. And I know when I was a young boy anybody that had an automobile drove it down Monroe Avenue and when we got into high school and in early days of college, if you were out on the prowl for picking up some girls, why if you had a car or could borrow or get someone else, ride in someone else‟s why you went down there on Monroe Avenue to show off. And that was still the situation until they put the mall in, and they fairly well eliminated that, for the time being. Interviewer: What were the, was the, the commercial establishments, pretty much the same or were there some differences there? For example, grocery companies; I don‟t believe there are any groceries companies downtown now, are there? Mr. Cary: Well are you speaking of retail or wholesale groceries? Interviewer: Both. Mr. Cary: Well, there were many wholesale groceries in those days. In addition to the Judson, which my family was connected, a short distance away at the corner of Weston and Ottawa, why the northwest corner was the Worden Grocery Company that, I don‟t know who Mr. Worden [A. E. Worden] was or what the connection is, but Guy Rouse, the „Winchesters, were active in that business at the time that I speak of, the Judson Grocery Company, which would be from oh, nineteen seven to nineteen twenty-seven, a twenty year period. Another one that was, that I remember of at that time which was on Ionia Street across from William Alden Smith building between what is now Weston Street and Fulton, was the Musselman Grocery Company, and that �6 was headed by Amos Musselman, who was a very prominent man at that time. At the corner of, on the northwest corner of, Ionia and Weston, where Quimby-Kain is now, was the wholesale grocery house of Lemon and Wheeler and that, that I don‟t know much about Mr. Wheeler, but Sam Lemon was well known at that time and it was his early Greek revival house of red brick and white pillars on Jefferson, on the east side of Jefferson that was, has been recently occupied by the O‟Brien funeral home, was the home of Sam Lemon. A little further south, on Jefferson, at that time, was another Greek revival house, which had been torn down, unfortunately, which was the home of Jacob Kleinhans. He was a very prominent lawyer in the law firm of Kleinhans, Knappen, Kleinhans, Knappen and Kleinhans. Knappen became the United States Court Judge of appeals and Kleinhans was a very prominent lawyer around the early nineteen ten and earlier in that time and Stuart Knappen, the son of the judge was a member of that firm, and that firm and its successors exist today in Wheeler, Upham, Uhl, and Bryant. But to go back to the wholesale grocery houses, at the, at the southeast corner of, of Ionia and Weston, what is now the Morse [Dry Goods] building, formerly the Transportation Building. That was, I think, originally built for wholesale grocery and wholesale hardware store. M.J. Clark, the donator of the Clark Memorial home of the Methodist Preachers on Sherman Street was involved in two companies there, Clark-Rutka-Weaver [actually hardware firm, not grocery] and Clark-Jewell-Wells. I can‟t tell… (break in the taping) … [Recording skips to a later portion of transcript. See beginning of Side Two] I was speaking of M.J. Clark and his company. I can‟t distinguish between which was the wholesale hardware firm and which was the wholesale grocery firm. The Judson Grocery Company bought out, I think it was Clark-Jewell-Wells. I think that was the grocery company but I wouldn‟t be firm about that. And that became a part of the Judson Grocery Company sometime during my boyhood days. Another company that was absorbed by Judson Grocery Company and wholesale house, and this was before my…any knowledge of it. I used to see the sign, an old sign that they had in the drive in of the Judson grocery company. The Ball Barnhart Putnam Company; it was a wholesale grocery company. And Mr. O[rson]. A. Ball, who was a son or a nephew of John Ball of John Ball Park, was one of the officers of the Judson Grocery Company, subsequent to that buyout or merger of the Ball Barnhart Putnam Company. Mrs. William Judson the First was a Barnhart and it may have been some family connection there that caused the absorption, but that I have no knowledge of. But I think Worden absorbed various wholesale grocery houses but you ask about places, food places, on the Monroe Avenue there was one called Dutton Taylors, which was a very fine market, large grocery store and market and it was in the block west of Peck‟s drugstore on the corner of, and I use that as a fixing point because most everybody knows where Peck‟s drugstore was, on the corner, the northwest corner the flat iron area of Division and Monroe that was oh half way in the middle of that block. Across the street was the at the corner of Commerce which would‟ve been at the south west corner of Commerce and Monroe because at that time Commerce came through from Fulton Street into Monroe at an angle was the Morse Department [Dry Goods] Store, George Morse and there was a food department connected with that in the back end of it ran through and came out on Ionia Street between Louis and Monroe and there‟s a story I know about George Morse who was inclined to be oh let‟s say a little (garbled word) maybe a little more. He was walking through there, through the food department one day and it was a custom then to sell cheese in a �7 large round bowl. Oh it probably was a foot or 18 inches across. They‟d cut the mold. Then to entice you to buy they‟d sliver off a piece of the cheese and offer it to you on the knife and you could taste the cheese and see whether or not it had the bouquet and the flavor and so forth and it was what you wanted. So Mr. Morse was going through there and the clerk was doing that to someone and he said out of the corner of his mouth, “Sell it to him, don‟t give it to him” (Laughter). Sometime when I was in grade school there was a large fire in that department store now whether it was during the Morse ownership or subsequently when it was known as Ira Smith‟s Department Store, I can‟t recall, but I don‟t remember how the, a department store being in that area or that building much after that fire. There was another large grocery store and market called the Bertsch Market on lower Monroe and about where Crescent came into, ran into Monroe; the west side of Monroe and that area from the Pantlind Hotel south to Bridge Street and Michigan Avenue as you… Interviewer: North Mr. Cary: ….it was all Bridge Street for many, many years and then I think the time the numbered system was changed the area from Monroe to the east was called Michigan and the area west of Monroe was still called Bridge Street and the stores and the shops in that area were as good as the shops up Monroe avenue. There was the Wurzburg‟s Department Store down close to Crescent Street, there was the Benjamin Company, there was the [Levi‟s] Star Clothing store in that area, the Petey[?] Apparel Company whose kids went to St. Andrews with me and their father owned that store which was on the east side of Monroe in the area between Lyon and Crescent. There was Katz Brothers which was at the corner of, the north east corner of Lyon and Monroe, the Water Shoe Store[?] which was a large shoe store at that time was there in the sort of onion shape projection there in the corner of the…well it‟s the first street runs dead end into the Civic Auditorium. Interviewer: Where the Inersin[?] Drugstore is now. The Inersin Craft, Art and Supply store is there? Mr. Cary: Well no, it‟s not Inersin that‟s over on Louis Street here. That‟s the…. Interviewer: Oh yeah not Inersin. Mr. Cary: ….Dave Munner, Douma‟s? Interviewer: Yeah. Mr. Cary: Yeah, that‟s the street I‟m talking about there. And then of course Aman‟s Sons The Giant [Giant Clothing Company] was at the south east corner of Lyon. Our earliest theatre, movie theater, was in the area between Lyon and Monroe across from the Pantlind and Peck‟s drugstore was in that area. That was a large progressive drugstore and the forerunner of being of a drugstore being something else besides selling drugs. I can remember one time, it was after I got out of college - I was practicing law, I was in the west drugstore in the evening around six o‟clock it may been because I was going to the Armory which was on Michigan Avenue for a concert. I saw the one, the in-inable[?] Shayapa come into Peck‟s drugstore from across the street from the Pantlind one of the most striking people I ever saw on the streets of Grand Rapids. He had one of those Asterican[?] fur hats cocked on the side of his head he was about, six feet three, six feet four, weighing around two hundred pounds and he carried, carried himself �8 to the full extent of his height just a magnificent looking male figure and he was giving a concert at the Armory where concerts were held in those days. But the movies had been in Grand Rapids was named Gaudet and for years the people in Grand Rapids didn‟t speak of going to the movies they were going to the Gaudet and I know as green as I was when I went to Boston in nineteen eighteen, why I would speak of the movies as going to the Gaudet the people down there of course had no idea what I was talking about and the United Star Store had a place in the corner of Pearl and Monroe and upstairs over that was one of the finest eating places both from the standpoint of food and reputation. It was a Chinese restaurant [Hong Ying Lo] operated by Charlie Young. Mr. Young was a educated Chinese. He was the only interpreter that I ever saw in the federal court. [END OF SIDE ONE] [SIDE TWO] [RECORDING CONTINUES HERE] …both the plaintiff and the respondent in the same proceedings and they had been because there weren‟t any other educated Chinese who could act as interpreter but, Charlie Young had the reputation of being a real, fine character, real fine honest man and it was because of that reputation, I‟m sure that he was allowed to jump to both sides in the lawsuit. But that restaurant was, had a reputation all over the west especially in western Michigan and if anyone came in and were of the least bit boisterous in the place, Mr. Young in a very quiet, suave way went over and either quieted them, or escorted them to the center stairway so that they could leave. Interviewer: Was, did you ever go to Chinnick‟s? Mr. Cary: Chinnick‟s was just east of the Young restaurant, Chinese restaurant and the United Cigar Store there on the corner was the Arcade, which ran through and it still exists, that runs through from Pearl to Lyon and the Power‟s Opera House fronted on to the east side of the Arcade and that was the real, legitimate, the better, legitimate theatre of Grand Rapids of that area. And just east of that was the, the Chinnick Saloon and upstairs over that there was one of the first bowling alleys of Grand Rapids, and if not the first, one of the very earliest and about the only one for many years. As kids growing up as high school boys, there were two saloons there… the Chinnick and Hugh Cavanaughs or commonly called Colonel Cavanaugh and you could prove that you looked to be twenty-one, if you could get by either Hugh Cavanaugh or Bill Chinnick, who sat at the front of their saloon. If you could get by whether you were eighteen or nineteen, into that, you looked twenty-one……They were a very high grade of operators of liquor by the glass business and were real respected citizens. So I, I spoke of Powers Opera House and when I got through college in nineteen twenty-two and started practicing law in the law firm, of which I am the survivor, and which has existed in Grand Rapids for one hundred years in nineteen seventy one.. I started at a salary of a hundred dollars a month. In fact, I could make more money on Saturday afternoon, going out and officiating at ba football game, than I could all week practicing law. So there was Harper Moore, was at Knappen, Uhl & Bryants as it was called then, and I was at Norris, McPherson, Harrington and Waers as it was called then, and Al Cook, my roommate and was at Corwin and Norcross, Norcross being later a part of Warner, Norcross and Judd and Al Cook was George Norcross‟ brother in law and…. Oh, there were several others, there was Bill Biggerd[?], from Yale, who was at the Travelers, which was then in the building and where our office was located, and a �9 fellow by the name of John Randall, whose father was an Episcopal bishop somewhere in Connecticut, and three or four of them were living at the YMCA, and we used to go there and play bridge at night and other nights we would take in the theatres. In the early period, although I don‟t remember very much of our going, that crowd, going to the Majestic, but at that time in Grand Rapids, there were the, the name escapes me now, a group of players and of that group was Selena Royal was the leading lady Spencer Tracy was the leading male, young man. Bill, his name escapes me too; he later became the director of the degrees for the Masonic Order in Grand Rapids and stayed that way for twenty or twenty-five years, directing the degree program of the Masonic group. But then the Clark, I guess, Players although I wouldn‟t be sure of that name, although the man who owned, owned the outfit and or at least operated it, directed it, came out in sometime, during one of the acts and told what was coming on later on. They later moved to Powers Theatre Building and operated out of there and so we were real patrons of the legitimate theatre arts, as stock played by Selena Royal and Spencer Tracy. Selena Royal later went to New York. She was a part of a theatre family and was in some very fine New York productions. I can‟t tell you very much of it, about it anymore. I haven‟t followed through in that area extensively and my memory fails me, in part…. Interviewer: What‟s the…You mentioned that in nineteen thirty-six you came into possession of a social register of Senator Smiths? Mr. Cary: Yes. Interviewer: Did you have any connection with William Alden Smith? Mr. Cary: Yes, he was, he was a close friend of William Judson and we…shut that off….when I started practicing law with Norris McPherson, Harrington and Waer, our office was in the Grand Rapids Savings Bank Building, now the Peoples Building. And the Senator William Alden Smith was President of the Grand Rapids Savings Bank or was chairman of the board, and Gilbert Daane was the President of… Mr. Harrington, Mr. Leon Harrington, of the firm was a friend of Gil Daane‟s and did quite a bit of work for the Grand Rapids Saving Bank. And about nineteen twenty Gil Daane and Senator Smith organized the Michigan Guarantee Corporation which was a finance company which was quite prominent in that period following the First World War. It was an outfit that made loans that the Grand Rapids Savings Bank couldn‟t make under the regulations of the banking department. And with his prominence, Senator Smith sold stock in the Michigan Guarantee Corporation, pretty well over the middle and the dock(?) district of Michigan. And our office did quite a lot of work for the Grand Rapids Savings Bank and the Michigan Guarantee Corporation. And Mr. Charles McPherson, who was a partner with Joseph Brewer Senior in Kelsey-Brewer Company which was the partnership which owned the controlling stock of the American Company Public Utilities Corporation was also a member of the firm. And the Grand Rapids Trust Company which was subsequently headed by Mr. Brewer after he got out of the public utility business in nineteen twenty-five, by a sale to Samuel Insel, was the executor of the William Alden Smith estate. And because of his ownership of Grand Rapids Savings stock and the double liability of stockholders in case of bank failures the Senator Smith was estate was considerably diminished by virtue of having to pay on that liability of his stock. And so the Senator died in nineteen thirty-three, thirty-two or thirty-three, and his wife, Nanna Smith, survived until late in nineteen thirty-five or early in nineteen thirty-six. So at that time, I was a young lawyer and a young book collector and I thought that probably Senator Smith would have some government publications by Schoolcraft and others on the Indians and �10 things, and I thought probably I could get some real finds. And so I asked Mr. McPherson if I could go and look over the Senator‟s library and he made arrangements for me to do that, and so on March the thirteenth, nineteen thirty-six, Irving Quimby, who was the owner of a bookstore called Raymer‟s Bookstore, along with Mrs. McCarn and Mr. Hooper, who headed the trust department of the Grand Rapids Trust Company, and one or two others went to the Smith Library. And before I went, Mr. McPherson said to me, “John I think your just wasting your time.” He says, “the Senator was a politician not a student.” Well I didn‟t find any real first editions at the Senator‟s, in the Senator‟s library. I did get a book that the senator got free, which was a book that was issued when the Clements Library of Ann Arbor was when the University of Michigan was dedicated and I also got a copy of the History of the Supreme Court of the United States, which was published in eighteen ninety and in it there were original etchings by two brothers in Philadelphia, of all of the - Rosenthal were their names - of all of the justices of the Supreme Court up to eighteen ninety. Those were the two books that I got from the Senator‟s library and having finished the examination of the books, I was waiting for Irving Quimby to get through and the others were looking around and there in the library between two Chinese dogs, which were a real showpiece if you liked that sort of thing, was an old burner and it was filled with waste of one kind of another, leather obituary mementos which were custom of people with money in those days to have, were thrown in there and I rummaged through it and I saw a little black Morocco book about eight by eight in there and I picked it out, rummaged through it, and immediately recognized that it was a book of autographs. So I sat in the window seat there, and ran through it, and recognized the names of local people and politicians and state politicians and national politicians and figures and I was wearing a tweed Al McCain[?] sleeved coat, with great big pockets and the thought went through my mind and which was well, “Should I say something about this or should I stick it in my pocket?” And so finally, I thought I can‟t do anything with a thing like that, after you get it surreptitiously, so I said to Jim Hoover, “Jim, are there any other books like this around?‟ He said, “What is it?” Well, I says, “It looks like it‟s a book of autographs.” “Well,” he says, “I don‟t know. But,” he says, “if it‟s here, it belongs to Mrs. Jewell.” Well Frank Jewell who was had been a lumber man and who was married to Mrs. Smith‟s sister was there. He had an office in the, on the 12th floor of the Grand Rapids Savings Bank above my office and our firm offices, so I knew Mr. Jewell through his sons and from seeing him at the building for a number of years. And so Mr. Jewell said, “Well, if it‟s here, Mrs. Jewell doesn‟t want it.” That she‟s taken everything that she wants. So I thought, Well, here is my entry. Here is where I go in. So in my very best dealing smile I handed it to Mr. Jewell and I said, “Well if it‟s Mrs. Jewell‟s and she doesn‟t want it, it would be hers to give away”. So I offered it to him and he took it and it flashed through my mind, “you should have stuck that in your pocket”….He went up stairs with the book and in about 10 or 15 minutes later, came back and he telephoned across the street to Mrs. Jewell and he walked across the room, the library there, and handed the book to me and said “Mrs. Jewell wants you to have it. So make your own moral and how about it? So following that I got squibs and other things from a various people who were mentioned in the books was the lucky occasion was of a….. [END OF TAPE ONE, SIDES ONE AND TWO] [TAPE TWO, SIDE ONE] Mr. Cary: Ask me what you want. Interviewer: Well let‟s start out with that story concerning the diary, the one about the Indiana… �11 Mr. Cary: Okay. Interviewer: …Congressman. Mr. Cary: Part of the interesting pages in the William Alden Smith guestbook is that one which concerns the round robin, which Senator Smith, Senator Watson of Indiana and Senator Hyde, Harding, of Ohio had on Washington on St. Patrick‟s Day. Our former fellow townsman, Fred Wetmore, who nominated William Alden Smith, in nineteen thirteen the last nomination by the Michigan Legislature of a United States Senator, told me this story and that he had it from the Senator himself, and in the book, on March seventeen, nineteen-eighteen, the Smiths having a party, the next President of the United States wrote “On the morn of songs and sausages.” And his wife Florence Kling Harding signed her name and as an aside for many reasons, personal and intimate writings of President and Mrs. Harding, are difficult to secure and especially together on the same instrument. Indiana Senator Watson recorded ”On a day long to be remembered.” Well, Senator Watson was an outspoken, testy curmudgeon and renown in Indiana for his pointed use of the vernacular. There appears in one of Jonathan Daniels recent books a statement by Senator Watson, which is more in character than the above statement about it being a day long to be remembered. Wendell Willkie was from Indiana and in nineteen forty the Republican candidate for President of the United States. And his supporters sought Senator Watson‟s endorsement, and the Senator refused because he complained that candidate Willkie was a Democrat and so he didn‟t want to endorse him and so finally Senator Watson was pushed and asked if he didn‟t believe in conversion, and the all-irreconcilable graphically snorted, “If a whore repented and wanted to join the church I‟d personally welcome her, and lead her up the aisle to a pew. But by the Eternal, I‟d not asked her to lead the choir the first night.” Interviewer: What was that other, there was another incident you related to me about some fellow that was, who was in charge of some committee that would approve a project? It was a pork-barrel project involving the Grand River. Mr. Cary: Oh that was, was a party which the Smiths gave for Vice President Marshall, who this Senator, Senator Smith was there during the Wilson administration, and of course Marshall was Woodrow Wilson‟s Vice President. And so the guests were Vice President Marshall and Senator and Mrs. Kellogg from Minnesota and Newton Baker, who was Secretary of War at the time, and his wife and Mrs. T. DeWitt Talmage, who was the widow of a very prominent Presbyterian, or at least Protestant minister of the Washington community and quite famous. And so one of the stories about Vice-President Marshall, of course, is the famous one about what this country needs is a good five-cent cigar. But in his recollections, subtitled “Hoosier Salad”, he related an occasion when an appropriation to dredge the Grand River in Michigan was being debated. And Senator William Alden Smith was for the appropriation and Senator Theodore Burton of Ohio, opposed it. And the controversy, according to Vice President Marshall, was waxing, warm and Burton was insisting that there never had been two and a half feet depth in that river, and there never could be and Smith, Senator Smith said to him testily, “Well, you‟re the man to whom when you were in the house of Representatives, we gave a dinner in Grand Rapids, and you came back and introduced the first appropriation for this.” “Yes.” Burton replied, “I know that is so. You gave me a dinner there, and after the dinner, was over, I saw water, where there was no water”. “But I‟m sober now. I‟ve reformed and I‟m opposed to this appropriation.” �12 Interviewer: How, how about that, the story about how Catholic Central finally got a football team? Mr. Cary: Why I don‟t, I don‟t know whether that story is, is how they got it, but the fact is that in nineteen twelve, I was a sophomore in Catholic Central High School and in nineteen eleven, the boys who were Juniors and Seniors in Catholic Central played football, but they were not allowed to play under the name Catholic Central, because Bishop Richter, who was very aesthetic, pious, studious man and a great administrator of the Dioceses, who a great number of years figured that children should be educated and should not waste their time on athletics and other things, and he wouldn‟t allow athletics in the high school, so the boys who would play and in nineteen eleven the kids that went to Catholic Central played under the name Ernie Reed‟s. Ernie Reed was a saloon keeper who had a saloon at the northwest corner of Cherry Street and Division Avenue. Winegar‟s large furniture store was immediately south of Ernie Reeds, on the same side of the street and some of the people, who played on the nineteen eleven Ernie Reed team were Carroll Williams, who later went to the University of Michigan and became a rather prominent engineer in Grand Rapids, a brother of Francis Williams, the lawyer who has two sons who were both practicing law in Grand Rapids. One of the other members of the team was John Hugh O‟Donnell, usually signed J. Hugh O‟Donnell, who went to University of Notre Dame, and played center on one of the teams that Knute Rockne played on. That would be sometime in nineteen twelve [or] thirteen and later after the First World War, Hugh O‟Donnell, who was a very fine imposing, looking person, who had a tremendously sonorous voice, speaking voice, joined the priesthood. I don‟t know whether he became a regular priest or whether he joined the order, but he ultimately became a member of the Holy Cross Order and ultimately was elected as President of Norte Dame, and served for one, six-year term and then was out the required period and came back and was elected for another six-year term as President of Notre Dame. On that was also Bob Murray, who‟s family had, made money in the lumbering industry, and the Murray Building at the corner of Division and Library Street is, was built by Bob Murray‟s father, John Murray. Oh, there was the Holland, Alphonse Holland and others that, oh an Italian boy who was one of the stars of that Cole Manardo. In fact, the matter is there may have been two Cole Manardos, on the, the team, Cole is an abbreviation of Cosamou Manardo and at that time I knew four Cosie Manardos in various stages of the school at St. Andrews and the one who lived on Jefferson Avenue, right near Sycamore, went to Detroit and is still a well-to-do, practicing lawyer in Detroit. Where the others are, I don‟t know now. Interviewer: Was there much of, when the Ernie Reed football team was playing, did they play Central High School? Mr. Cary: I, I was young enough so that I didn‟t know who they played or how they played. Yeah, at that time, you know there was, there was only one high school that really had a full time twelve grades and that was Central High School, Grand Rapids Central. At that time it was a real all-state power, the big teams of the state was Detroit Central, Grand Rapids Central and Muskegon High School. At a little earlier than that, Robert Zupke, who was later the great coach at the University of Illinois, was the coach at Muskegon High School and he went from Muskegon to Oak Park, Illinois, had very successful teams there and then about nineteen twelve or thirteen, Zup, whom I later was acquainted with personally along with Benny Oosterbaan, who was one of his boys, but who Zup didn‟t get to go to the University of Illinois, were friends of mine. We used to play some golf at, in tournaments at Spring Lake and Muskegon and so on. �13 And Zupke was a very vocal person, always, always telling stories and so in the twenties Zupke was out scouting and looking for players for Illinois and Benny Oosterbaan was out looking for players for the University of Michigan. And they traveled together. And I can remember a couple of years, there was a hole over at Spring Lake Country Club, around the third where the third, the fifteenth, and the seventh or sort of came together, and so when you‟d finish your match, and were waiting for the next one, why you‟d congregate in that area. And I spent several hours there listening to Zupke tell stories about his various teams. Benny Oosterbaan would be laying on his back, with his hands under his head and his elbows akimbo to his head, and you‟d think he was asleep, but whenever Zupke would run down Oosterbaan would kind of roll over like that, open up one eye and say, “Hey Dutchman, did you ever tell them about so-and-so?”, and Zupke would then be off again no, no sense story so that, when you got away from Grand Rapids Central, but it was the only high school. It wasn‟t until nineteen eleven or twelve that Union High School became a full twelve grade school and so I remember that Johnny Beck, Alvin Louks and some of those boys of that time, some of the others, their names don‟t come to me now, played on the first Union High School Football team. So get back a little to Catholic Central, now I played on the first team, a friend of mine lived on the block south of us, was a boy by the name of Paul Hines. His father was a railroad engineer and Paul was not very successful in athletics and but he was very fond of them and so I remember in the late summer of nineteen twelve, I was down at Paul‟s house, we always called him Pickle, Pickle Hines and he asked me how old I was and how much I weighed. Well I didn‟t know and so we went over to Cody‟s store, which was at the corner of Highland and Lafayette and I got weighed and I weighed a hundred and forty-three pounds and I was somewhere around six feet and he says, “Yeah sure. We‟re going to organize a second team at Catholic Central this year, and I want you to play for my second team.” The second team had no relation whatever to the first team and we were playing at the practice grounds at the corner of College and Logan and one night we were scrimmaging and I was playing fullback for the second team and they finally talked Pickle into letting our second team play the first team. And so I had a good night in that practice and so some of the first team members wanted me to play guard on the first team. And Pickle wouldn‟t let me, because that would spoil his second team, and so there was quite a controversy about it and finally I was allowed to go to the first team. We played one game at Garfield Park. I remember that our singing teacher at Catholic Central at that time was Mary Agnes Douglas, a fine old lady, she probably is much younger at that time than I am now, but at least she was old to me then. And in order to get some income from the game, we sold tags which you put in your buttonholes, and I don‟t remember now how much they cost, but Miss Douglas, made a hit with all of the boys in school because she bought quite a number of those tags for the football game against Sparta at Garfield Park. Well the sad part of that game was that three or four of our players got hurt and we couldn‟t continue the rest of the season, because we didn‟t have enough able-bodied students after that to make-up a football team. Dan Mead, who was playing halfback, hurt his neck. Dan later went to M.A.C. Michigan State College and became an engineer and one of the top officers in late years of Owen, Ames and Kimball builders. And another one who got hurt was Bob Murray and I don‟t remember who the two others were. Lester Styles, who at that time was, had won national honors at Philadelphia for the Grand Rapids‟ Boat and Canoe Club, was playing tackle along side of me that game. But that was the last, first and last game of the nineteen twelve Catholic Central High School Football Team. Later on, Bill Murray, who, that‟s wrong, later on Bill Ducey, who was a, whose family, the son of Michael Ducey who was a furniture manufacturer, with a factory on Godfrey Avenue, out around Hall �14 Street, which later became the Johnson – Hanley – Johnson factory, was a student at the seminary, St. Joseph‟s Seminary and at that time St. Joseph‟s Seminary was across Sheldon Street from Catholic Central High School. And Bill was studying for the priesthood and he was short but very quick and was a fine quarterback. He later played quarterback for the Catholic Central teams of nineteen thirteen and fourteen and Bill played on the second team and the second team after I went back to it, we went on and we played Union‟s second team at John Ball Park and both Bill and I got an offer to, I can‟t remember now whether there was any money connected with the offer or just what it was, but we were offered by Mr. Dillingham, who was either the principle or the faculty manager of Union High School, some sort of scholarship or something at Union if we would transfer from Catholic Central to Union. Well the Duceys had a very large family and the Duceys were very devout as my parent were, and we had about as much chance playing for anything except the Catholic School as a snowball would in certain places that are fairly hot. At that time in nineteen thirteen, Elmer Mitchell was the coach at Union High School. Phil Holloway was our coach at, at Catholic Central and we played Union High School at Ramona Park on Saturday morning. And we had some pretty big boys on our team, but it wasn‟t real cohesive as a unit and so we would play good games and bad games. Well, the day we played Union, we played a good game and Union almost had the disaster of losing to us. And so the next year when we tried to get Union to play us in nineteen fourteen Elmer Mitchell said, “Why should I play you guys?” He says, “Your other games you play like a lot of sand lotters and you play my team and,” he says, “you knock my players out and we have injuries and so on and I‟m expected to beat you by a high score and if I don‟t, why I‟m in disgrace. I don‟t want to play you.” And what he said was true. Union was about to, Central was having an off year after it had a State Championship having beaten Muskegon a year or two before when Central had a great team headed by our sheriff of later years, Hugh Blacklock who became an all American, after having played four years at M.A.C, he went to Great Lakes and played there, while playing at Great Lakes on the service team he became All-American, a Walter Camp All-American. He later joined the Staleys, which was headed by George Halas and ultimately became the Chicago Bears. Hugh Blacklock played for the Chicago Bears until about nineteen twenty-six or twenty-seven, a matter of six or seven years. Hugh was a great player and a great person and was a real credit to professional football and to college football in Grand Rapids. Interviewer: This is a little away from, away from football, but could you tell me about the breweries in Grand Rapids and that story about how the breweries apparently had something to do with preserving part of the population. Mr. Cary: Why that matter about the health of Grand Rapids isn‟t anything that‟s original with me. It is set forth in Baxter‟s History of Grand Rapids, which in my opinion is a real history of Grand Rapids and is a wealth of information on Grand Rapids history. But John Pennell or Pennell, P-E-double N-E-double L, was an Englishman who settled in Grand Rapids about eighteen thirty-four, eighteen thirty-six and he because of the fact that at the foot of the hill on Michigan Avenue, which was then called East Bridge Street, there were springs of very pure, fine water and Mr. Pennell secured the rights to that land and that water and piped it across East Bridge Street over to the corner of Ionia and Bridge and made English Beer. What the difference is between it and the German Lager beer that I‟ll talk about, I don‟t know. And so the German migration to Grand Rapids brought with it a great number of men and families who were brewers in various provinces of Germany and one of the more prominent of these brewers was �15 Christopher Kusterer and in, sometime in the eighteen forties, I think probably about eighteen forty-nine, Christopher Kusterer bought out the stock in the business of John Pennell and whether he removed it from across the street to the southwest corner of East Bridge and Ionia or not isn‟t quite clear historically but that area was the area where the water was. And Kusterer wanted that water. And he then started making lager beer. At that time the area which was the, the part of Grand Rapids along Canal Street, along in that area was swampy and that condition also existed down around the around the area where the, the Union Railroad Station was ultimately built on Ionia at Logan or at Weston or Island as it was called previous to Weston and Oakes and Cherry in that area, was low ground and swampy. And there was, it was sort of an ague was contracted by a lot of people in the, in the Grand Rapids area. Whether it was malarial or not I‟m not quite sure, but the out it, as a result of it they contracted a certain amount of chills and shaking. Interviewer: Let‟s, let‟s just stop there for a second so I can turn the tape over, okay? [Audio recording ends at this point] Mr. Cary: I was talking about the fact that many residents of Grand Rapids suffered these chills and shaking ague that went along with it and that between the late eighteen forties and eighteen fifty-five that would be about eight years following the, the sale and brewing of lager beer. That condition was almost completely eliminated so far as Grand Rapids was concerned. Whether that‟s sound medically or not I don‟t know but if that is true, it can be well said that the Grand Rapids Brewing industry really played an important part in the public health of the city of Grand Rapids. Christopher Kusterer was a real business man. He had a good sense of, of what was a good product and the way to market it and get the people to buy it. And there were oh, I wouldn‟t know how many German brewers there were who had brewers it, in this period of the late forties and early fifties. Peter Weirich who was, an important German Businessman in that period had what was called a Michigan brewery at West Bridge and Indiana. There was the Eagle brewery which was established in eighteen seventy-six at fifty Stocking Street by Jacob Veit and Paul Rathman. The Tusch brothers had a brewery on Grandville Avenue and I think that was a little south of Wealthy Street. And then H. A. Britt had one on West Division Street and West Division was a street on the west side and its name was changed when Grand Rapids completely reversed the names of its streets and avenues and had all thoro, thoroughfares running east and west as streets and all north and south as avenues. And it was at that time that the city was geographically divided into four quadrants with Fulton Street dividing north and south and Division Street dividing east and west. And John Gessler and company had a brewery on Page Street up in the north end. Adolph Goetz, whose family was later a client of mine had a brewery at Broadway and West Leonard. And the Union Brewery was located at eighty-seven South Division Street and it was established in eighteen sixty-two by George Brandt. In eighteen eighty-eight the proprietors were Elizabeth B. Brandt and I think she is the widow of the organizer of George Brandt but I‟m not sure. And then there was George Jub, W. Brandt, he‟s the son of the original George Brandt and Julius Petersen. The Petersens had a brewery which was operating as late as nineteen twenty and their brewery was on Indiana Avenue, just south of Bridge Street, the Union Brewery at eighty-seven South Division Street was located at the southeast corner of Oakes and Division. And in the period of about nineteen oh-five to nineteen ten those premises were operated by Theodore Clark. And the Neal Cary flam, family was a customer of Theodore Clark in the summertime because when he came to deliver the beer at our �16 house, I would quite often ride with Mr. [Louis P.] Maude the driver of the truck for the rest of his finishing up the rest of his route. Later Mr. Maude was the bailiff for United States Circuit Court of Appeals Judge, Arthur W. Dennison. And later on in our lifetimes we used to talk about our deliveries many years before. Interviewer: Then the breweries, the solo breweries consolidated. Mr. Cary: Yes, Christopher Kusterer in eighteen eighty was a victim of the steamer Alpena disaster which was the loss of the Alpena on a trip from either Holland or Muskegon to Chicago or Milwaukee. And following that the, the any number of these breweries consolidated and joined up and the Grand Rapids Brewing Company was the result of that amalgamation of these various German family breweries. And prior to sometime between eighteen eighty and the publication of the Baxter History of Grand Rapids in eighteen ninety, the large red building, the home of the Grand Rapids Brewing Company was built and it was a landmark on Michigan Hill, which was formerly East Street Bridge Street for many years and until nineteen sixty-four, five or six whenever that was torn down as part of the Urban Renewal in the Grand Rapids Downtown area. Interviewer: The, the, I think you said that their beer was Silver Foam. Mr. Cary: Yes. Interviewer: And how, what, how did they market that beer around town? Then there was the story about the Branch Bank in Michigan and how breweries affected branch banking. Mr. Cary: Oh, well, it, it, it was the custom of breweries, it wasn‟t unique in Grand Rapids, but the law books have cases in which Joseph Schlitz had certain corners in certain cities which he would lease to a man who would be expected to only dispense Schlitz Beer. And there are records of breeches of that agreement and law suits over it. And there also in the Michigan records of suits by various breweries in Michigan who have the same situation and so the Grand Rapids Brewing Company bought up some of the best retail corners throughout the city of Grand Rapids. One of them was the southeast corner of Franklin and Division and off hand I, I don‟t remember any others and I haven‟t done any research on it so I, I‟m not sure of that. I‟m sure of that one but there were many more. And when prohibition came to Michigan in nineteen eighteen, the time of the First World War and the Grand Rapids Brewing Company went out of the brewing business, it went into the real estate business and sold these prominent corners in Grand Rapids to George Ellis who had a private bank, to the Grand Rapids Saving Bank, to the Kent State and they established branch banks on those corners throughout the, the, throughout the city. And those corners were used by branch banks until very modern times when the plaza and the outside area shopping districts were, came into being and so progress changes and methods of branch banking change but the brewing business was forerunner of branch banks. Interviewer: This is a, Mr. Cary: After repeal of prohibition the National trend of consumers to prefer the highly advertised national brands of beer sounded the death knell of the relatively small local breweries throughout the United States and the attempt by the Fox people of Chicago to take over the old red building of Grand Rapids Brewing Company on Michigan Avenue and Market Fox Deluxe beer succeeded for several years. But then it just couldn‟t compete with the National Advertising �17 that had to be done in order to sell beer. There are probably more money spent for television time for beer than for any other product and if you haven‟t got money to do that advertising, you lose out. As illustration, Harry Heilman who was one of the great broadcasters of radio and television broadcasting the Detroit Tiger games for many years his product was Global Beer but a….. [SIDE TWO OF TAPE TWO] ….make it in the Grand Rapids Brewing Company later followed by Fox Deluxe part of the Frank Fox family of Chicago. I was not able to make it either. And it…….not very many people now remember what that big red building was, what caused it to be there and so on yet it gracefully aged up there on the hill, but finally it was looked upon as an eye-sore and the cost of trying to maintain it in condition so that it was not a hazard as a structure that it finally felt that with the Urban Renewal it had to be torn down and when it was a historical era so far as Grand Rapids is concerned, passed out of existence. It goes back to the very early beginnings of Grand Rapids in the 1840s and its industrial life and it saddens people who have lived through a part of that period when structures of that kind were a real life blood of the community. And some place or other I think probably that the following quotation, I don‟t know whether where it‟s from is a probably a good obituary for the old Grand Rapids Brewing company building, the home of Silver Foam Beer and I quote: “Yet shall some Tribute of regret be paid when her long life hath reached its final day. Men are we and must grieve when even the shade of that which once, of that which once was great, passed away”. INDEX A D American Laundry Company · 1 B Daane, Gil · 10 Daly Family · 3 Douglas, Mary Agnes · 15 Blacklock, Hugh · 16 Burton, Senator Theodore (Ohio) · 2, 13 E Erie Canal · 2 C Cady, William · 2 Cary, Cornelius "Neal" (Father) · 2, 5 Cary, Julia A. Lynch · 1, 2 Cary, Patrick (Grandfather) · 1, 2 Catholic Central High School · 13, 14, 15 Cavanaugh Family · 9 Chinnick Saloon · 9 Clark, M.J. · 6, 7, 10 Coliseum · 5 F Fanitorium · 4 G Gaudet (movei theatre) · 8 Grand Rapids and Indiana Railroad · 1 �18 Grand Rapids Brewing Company · 17, 18 Grand Rapids Trust Company · 10 H Hines, Paul · 14 Holland, Alphonse · 14 Holloway, Phil · 15 Hoover, Jim · 11 J Jewell, Frank · 7, 11 Judson Grocery Company · 2, 6, 7 O O‟Donnell, John Hugh · 13 Oosterbaan, Benny · 14 P Peck‟s Drugstore · 5, 7, 8 Pennell, John · 16 Pipp Family · 4 Powers Opera House · 9 Q Quimby, Irving · 6, 11 K Kelvinator plant · 3 Kleinhans, Jacob · 6 Knappen, Stuart · 6 Kusterer, Christopher · 16, 17 R Reed, Ernie · 2, 13, 14 Roosevelt, Alice · 5 Roosevelt, Theodore (President) · 4 Royal, Selena · 10 L Leonard Family · 3 Lynch Family · 1, 2, 3 Lynch, Jeremiah (Grandfather) · 2, 3 Lynch, Timothy (Uncle) · 1 M Manardo, Cole · 14 Marshall, Vice President · 2, 12, 13 Massachusetts Institute of Technology (M.I.T) · 4 Maude, Louis P. · 17 Michigan Central Railroad · 2 Morrissey Family · 4 Morse, George · 6, 7 Murray Family · 13, 15 Musselman Grocery Company · 6 N Nunamaker, Leslie · 4 S Silver Foam beer · 18, 19 Smith, Senator · 7, 10, 11, 12, 13 Smith, William Alden · 5, 6, 10, 12, 13 St. Alphonsus Church · 3 St. Andrews School · 4, 5, 8, 14 T Tracy, Spencer · 10 U Union Brewery · 17 University of Michigan · 1, 11, 13, 14 W Watson, Senator (Indiana) · 12 Williams, Carroll · 13 �19 Willkie, Wendell · 12 Worden Grocery Company · 6 Wurzburg‟s Department Store · 8 Y Young, Charlie · 8, 9 Z Zupke, Robert · 14 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b61d7840d1ac70b8eba674a8eaa0c739.mp3 ee8a99f2ad5c19b3ad26c124a1407cd8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_18-19Cary Title A name given to the resource Cary, John Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cary, John Description An account of the resource John Cary was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on October 2, 1897. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0c52d4f130b5b34a4e4082826f43b8c2.pdf 9d77bd60d280dde810e9189a8ae1e0c3 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mr. Chester Idema Interviewed on September 24, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #16, 17 (52:28) Biographical Information Chester Frederick Idema was born 18 August 1886 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He died 20 March 1978 at his home at 29 Gay Avenue, Grand Rapids. He was the son of Henry and Johanna Wilhelmina (Doornink) Idema. Henry was born in Grand Rapids in 1856 and died 8 Jaunuary 1951. He married Johanna W. Doornink on 3 February 1880 in Grand Rapids. Johanna died in 25 December 1953. Chester’s brothers, Walter D. Idema and Edward H. Idema were also born in Grand Rapids – 16 December and 1888 and 23 November 1890, respectively. Chester F. Idema was married on 4 October 1913 to Marion Mead in Grand Rapids. Marion was the daughter of James Andrew Mead and Alice Nash and born 4 August 1891 in Grand Rapids. She died 22 December 1957 in Grand Rapids. Many members of the Idema family are buried in Woodlawn Cemetery in Grand Rapids. ___________ Interviewer: There, now we’re starting. I’m going to start right out with that, that question I asked you before, whether you have, whether you think there is any value to this project at all. And if you don’t think so, why not? Mr. Idema: I am unable to see the ultimate good in a sufficiently to warrant the time, effort, and cost, getting the material. I am unable to see that your objective is important. I’m probably wrong. Interviewer: You can be right, you know… Mr. Idema: Hmm? Interviewer: You could be right. Mr. Idema: Well, time will tell that... Interviewer: Well, were you born in Grand Rapids? Mr. Idema: I was born on Lyon Street. Interviewer: Whereabouts on Lyon? Mr. Idema: Between Prospect and Lafayette on the south side. �2 Interviewer: Yes? Was …? Mr. Idema: The house still stands, in spite of the fact I left it. Interviewer: What was it like growing up there in that neighborhood? Mr. Idema: What was it like? Interviewer: Yes Mr. Idema: I don’t know just what you mean. There were an awful lot of kids, my age, a little younger, a little under. We had our fights and our armies and our games and our plays. We all went to Fountain Street School, then later to the Grand Rapids High School, which was then at, on the Lyon Street hill, the big red school, that was high school. Interviewer: Is that at Lyon and Barclay? Mr. Idema: Barclay, yes, or Ransom, yes, I guess Barclay. No, Barclay would be, no, the big school was on Ransom Street, the big red school, Ransom and Lyon. Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Idema: Then I went, I graduate…, I didn’t graduated, I went to preparatory school in Pennsylvania and I went to the University of Michigan graduated there in nineteen nine. Interviewer: What did you do after you graduated? Mr. Idema: Went to the Elliot Machine Company. Interviewer: Can you tell me the story about the Elliot Machine Company again? Mr. Idema: Well, the Elliot Machine Company was a mana… was a company engaged solely in the manufacture of button-fastener machines which would wire fasten buttons on button shoes. The machines were leased, for a certain sum a year, and the wire, they, unless he agreed to use, wire made by the Elliot Machine Company and no other, and that profit, and the very large profit, was in that. And they had machines in every part in every city in the U.S., every shoe store had to have one because a person would buy a pair of button shoes and they wouldn’t fit and they’d have to have the buttons set over. So they clip off the old buttoner, unfasten it, set it over where it belongs, and put it on with this machine. Every click was some value to the Elliot Machine Company. Well, that, during the war, the government, I’ve forgotten what division that would be, put the ban on the manufacture of button shoes, in order to conserve leather. As a result of which, as button shoes disappeared, and couldn’t be repurchased, there was no use for a machine to put buttons on them. And the Company folded up, there was no value except junk value to those thousands machines, which were in every part of the United State, but not worth the freight to bring them back. �3 Interviewer: Well, I, how would, what would it conserve leather by doing away with the button shoes? Weren’t there other shoes made out of leather? Mr. Idema: Yes, but it made two styles. Two different types of shoes, you, you and your wife would either buy lace shoe or button shoe or for some occasion or both. But anyway, they, what it accomplished I don’t know, but that was their reason. Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Idema: Conservation of leather. Interviewer: That was a pretty profitable company, the Elliot? Mr. Idema: While it was growing, it was very profitable. But it ended just as quick. And all the investment in machinery and tools and everything was practically nil. And these machines that were in existence all over the country under lease, and they say they’re not worth shipping back. Interviewer: You mentioned that Elliot paid for half of the Masonic Temple here in town. Mr. Idema: I think its contribution was either about, even figure of about one hundred fifty thousand dollars, or something like that, about half of it, I’ve forgot. But a large sum, which he made in this business. Now that was during nineteen thirteen-fourteen-fifteen-sixteen, just before the war, when it was in its height. Previous to that, lace shoes had been the style. Gradually it turns over and button shoes came back in. Women used to wear button, button shoes almost to the knee, there’d be sixteen buttons on shoe; that’s thirty-two buttons on a pair. Well, that was worth probably twenty-five or-thirty cents to the Elliot Machine Company to put those on. See, when, when shoes were sent to the retailer they’re sewed on, they’re never clipped on with wire, because they have to be changed to conform to the customer and their needs. So, it’s very easy to snip the threads, then put ‘em on with wire. So that very, very few of ‘em except for heavy men’s shoes, were put on at the factory. They were sent and just tied on really. But you go in, you’d lose a button as it happens you’d do this and a button would come off, you’d stop at the first little shoe store, it’s on the way down, go in and take off your shoe and he’d put it on there and like that there’d be a new, be clamped on. Automatically crimper would do that and slap the button on. And using Elliot wire, which, in which he had a whale of a product. Interviewer: Then, you went off to war? Mr. Idema: Then I, I enlisted in nineteen seventeen, yes. Interviewer: Did you go overseas? Mr. Idema: No, I didn’t get overseas: I came back in nineteen nineteen and went into the, well, it was soon after that, there was a little interim which there’s no need to go into.., I went with the Welch-Wilmarth Company which later became a part of the Grand Rapids Store Equipment Corporation. They had a factory down on Madison Avenue and a great big factory on outer �4 Monroe Avenue. And, I left that to go in the Old Kent Bank in nineteen …, I can’t tell you, about nineteen thirty-three or four. And I’ve been with the Elliot, I’ve been with the Old Kent nineteen years, at the Old National office, you know where that is, where it was? You know where the Bank is? Interviewer: The Old Kent Bank? Mr. Idema: No, the Bank, it’s a restaurant in the Pantlind. Interviewer: Oh yes, the bar, yes. Mr. Idema: That’s where the Old National office of the Old Kent Bank, that’s where I was, that was my desk. And I was there until the new building was built and then they put all our stuff over there, the National office, I mean. And the main office was in the Morton House, at that time. It’s still a bank, but it’s not the main office; the main office, of course is in a new building. Interviewer: Yes, was that known as Old Kent Bank when you joined it? Mr. Idema: Yes. (It) was the Old National office of the Old Kent Bank, just like the other would be the Morton Hotel office, or Cherry-Diamond office, or Plainfield branch, or whatever. I was. at the time I retired, which they made me do it, I was a little over 65, according to the retirement rules; I was in charge of the Old National office of the Old Kent Bank, Vice President in charge of the Old National. And I haven’t worked since. Interviewer: Did, were your brothers instrumental in forming Steelcase? Mr. Idema: One brother. Interviewer: Which brother was that? Mr. Idema: Walter, he started with the Metal Office Furniture (Company), which was then, with Mr. Peter Wege, who came here from Ohio, from General Fire Proofing Company, Youngstown, Ohio. They formed and organized the Metal Office Furniture Company which is now Steelcase. Interviewer: Was that a relatively new thing at that time? Mr. Idema: What? Interviewer: Was that a relatively new concept, metal office furniture when they went into business? Mr. Idema: No, no. General Fireproofing had been making it for years, and they were at that time the largest in the world. Mr. Wege came here and got people interested; put in money, got a factory down in the south end, started making metal furniture;. started in a very modest way, making wastebaskets and little tables and filing cases and so forth. Now God knows, they make everything, and they are the largest in the world, by far. General Fireproofing is not done so well �5 since…I, I that shouldn’t be recorded, I mean comments like that, I don’t need to make them because I have no business making them. I can tell you about the Metal Office or the Steelcase, but I don’t know anything about General Fireproofing except they’ve lost some standing in the business. Interviewer: Yes, you go down to lunch nearly every day at the University Club, don’t you? Mr. Idema: Just about every day. Interviewer: Can you tell me a little bit about the University Club? Mr. Idema: Well, as I say, I think it was first meeting was in the house right down there on the corner which was then occupied by Mr. Wanty... Tom Wanty graduated [from] the University of Michigan, and I went to Michigan, my brother went to Princeton, and they got somebody else from Harvard, somebody from Yale, and so forth and formed a nucleus of the University Club. I can’t give you the date, I wouldn’t even guess. But we have been in various places. We’ve been in the Pantlind; we’ve been, well, for a long time on the top floor of the Michigan Trust Company, until we moved into the new, five years ago, where we are now. But, what do you want to know about it? Interviewer: Is that, well, is that why they call it the University Club, because they took men from certain universities? Mr. Idema: You have to have attended a university to belong. Interviewer: I didn’t know that. Mr. Idema: Yes, well, that’s true in every city where there is a University Club, that’s why the name. Don’t have to be a graduate, but you have to attend, been a pupil at a university, recognized university. I don’t know how many members they got now, but I they got an awful lot of them. Interviewer: Was, what kind of, was there any kind of competition between the University Club and the Peninsular Club? Mr. Idema: No competition. The University, the Peninsular Club is more of the business club. Older, older men and younger men if, you want to take a business, somebody there talk business, take ‘em to the Pen Club. They don’t, the University Club doesn’t, doesn’t cater to that kind of trade. Interviewer: What, what does the University…? Mr. Idema: It’s a social club, I mean you meet there to meet friends and. But the Peninsular Club is a businessman’s club. A great many people belong to the Peninsular Club who don’t belong to the other, or vice versa. Now, when I was in the bank, I belonged to the Peninsular �6 Club, because it’d be some banker from Chicago over here, and I’d would want to take his, and I would take him to the Peninsular Club which had more the atmosphere of a business club. And they don’t cater to that kind of business at the University Club. It’s a social club, it has long tables; everyone sits, long and then they have small tables around. Have you ever been there? Interviewer: At the University Club? Mr. Idema: You know what it looks like. Interviewer: Yes, it is pretty nice. Their, their new club is particularly nice. I remember I went to a dance at the old, you know, the University Club that was on top of the Michigan Trust Building. Mr. Idema: Oh, this is much larger. Interviewer: Yes, oh yes. Mr. Idema: And we never, the old club, the old club in the Trust Building, we didn’t have regular evening dinners, which they do here I think every night but three nights, four nights a week, I guess. All you have to do is to go down there and be served. Interviewer: When you were growing up on Lyon Street there, was there very much closeness among the families that lived along Lyon Street? Mr. Idema: Oh, very much so, sure. Everybody knew everybody. Judge Dennison lived right across the road, next to him was Mr. Barlow, next to him was Mr. Stone, next to him was Dr. Schaefer, across the street was Mr. Treadway, in the railroad business, on the corner was somebody connected with the Grand Rapids Brewery. I can go right around the block. Those names I can remember, but you ask me who sat across from me this noon at lunch, I don’t know… Interviewer: What, what did, there, there were closeness in the neighborhood, was there very much socializing among the families? Mr. Idema: Not a great deal, no. Oh, there’d be some…this way, but not this way. This man here, this family here, might be very close and friendly with the one across the street, because their children was (were) the same age. Maybe the house next door they had no children and they didn’t contact at all. Children made a great deal of difference; they, they kind of mixed the families up, and in our particular house had the top floor which was the neighborhood, especially on a rainy day, for all the kids in the neighborhood. There would be only one place that was that big, and that was a very large house, and the whole top floor was a playroom. So we had all the kids. In those days we didn’t play football, we played some baseball. And then, we had a big dog, we used, we used to play some game Prisoners, some prisoner game, chase them with the �7 dog. But all the people are gone, I haven’t got a single acquaintance that lived up where I lived when I was little, a young man. Well, my brother. Interviewer: You don’t know even whether they’re still living in Grand Rapids? Mr. Idema: Oh, I know they’re dead; I know what’s become of them not eventually, but, I know they died. Interviewer: Was that street paved, Lyon Street? Mr. Idema: Used to have cable cars. Ever see or hear of a cable car? Interviewer: I’ve seen them in San Francisco… Mr. Idema: Well, that’s the same thing. The cables were continuous cables that ran through a slot. They dropped this grip down and take hold of it, the cable, and take the car up the hill. Interviewer: From downtown on Lyon Street? How far out Lyon does that cable car go? Mr. Idema: I think to what is now Grand Avenue… but I may be wrong on that. Perhaps only to Union. Interviewer: Beyond those streets was where the country was? Mr. Idema: Yeah, more or less. I don’t think it was built up to much. But I don’t know, I didn’t know much about what went on then, east of where I lived. West was downtown. Interviewer: Did you spend a lot of time downtown? Mr. Idema: Well, when? What do you mean? Interviewer: If you didn’t spend much time east of the house, you must have spent your time west of the home. Mr. Idema: Well, what age are you talking about? Interviewer: Oh, I don’t know…. Mr. Idema: We used to go downtown every day or two, for sure. Slide down a hill in winter and walk down in the summer. Washington Street used to be a wonderful street for sliding. They had the police roped it off. You start at College Avenue, ran down and turn on Jefferson. And I don’t think they ever allowed it on Lyon, it was too steep. But Fountain Street allowed it and roped it off. And then they had the horses; some of them would have horses, pull ‘em up. Interviewer: When the kids came downhill, somebody had a horse to pull the kids up? �8 Mr. Idema: They had a horse; it take ‘em down the hill, around by Fulton Street, then have them pull it up to Fountain. But mostly we hauled our own. They had bobs that would hold twelve, fourteen kids, and they’d go, I don’t know how fast they’re going at the bottom but we were moving. Interviewer: Was downtown much different then, than it is now? Mr. Idema: Well, it’s beginning to change now, it’s high time. Interviewer: What do you mean? Mr. Idema: Well lower Monroe Avenue and Monroe to Campau Square of course entirely different than it was fifty years ago. But it wasn’t very long ago that it looked a great deal the same. They’re just waking up downtown now. That, maybe thing, maybe they can hold it, maybe they can’t, I don’t know. Business is moving out, so is residential property. Interviewer: Was that lower Monroe section, taken out by urban renewal, was that, were there quite a few businesses in there? Mr. Idema: Oh, retail businesses, firms, sure. Spring Dry Goods Company, a very large concern that was right down at the bottom of the hill, just where you made the turn, the bottom of Monroe. And, Herpolsheimer’s used to be Voigt-Herpolsheimer’s, but that’s moved up the street from where it was, I think Wurzburg’s is where Herpolsheimer’s used to be, as I recall it. But of course none of them are sitting home now. Steketee's. Interviewer: Yes, Steketee’s is still sitting on a bench[?]. Mr. Idema: About the only one. Interviewer: Voigt-Herpolsheimer, that’s the same family as the flour mills? Mr. Idema: C. G. A. Voigt was the father of the Voigt brothers, and he and Mr. Herpolsheimer owned the business, but he wasn’t active. He was always in the flour business. But my grandfather, on my mother’s side and Mr. Paul J. Steketee, were partners, and the name of the store was Steketee-Doornink and they were partners right where Steketee’s is now, ‘til they agreed to disagree and my grandfather sold out to Mr. Steketee, and it became Steketee and Sons, Paul Steketee and Sons. But he was in the dry goods business with Mr. Steketee, for quite awhile. Interviewer: What did he do after he sold his a….. Mr. Idema: Oh, he retired: he, I don’t think he did anything. I never knew him, I was pretty young then. Well, I knew him, but can’t, I have no memory of him. Interviewer: Who was the first member of your family to come to Grand Rapids? �9 Mr. Idema: Well, what do you mean by family? Interviewer: Well, let’s say both on your mother’s and father’s side. Mr. Idema: They were both born in Grand Rapids, my father and mother. Interviewer: Did their parents come to Grand Rapids? Mr. Idema: Their parents came from Holland; the old Holland called the Netherlands. Idema is a Dutch name and a Dutch family. Interviewer: What… Do you know what brought them from the Netherlands to Grand Rapids? Mr. Idema: Ships. Interviewer: I mean, what would have prompted them to leave the Netherlands for….. Mr. Idema: Same thing that prompted everybody to leave the Netherlands, religious persecution and they settled here, and they settled around Holland, Michigan. A great many of them settled in Iowa, that’s a great Dutch settlement. And quite a few of them in Pennsylvania, although the Pennsylvania Dutch, I mean the Dutch as we know them here, they’re not very much the same class of people. I don’t know but I know they talked kind of disparagingly of Pennsylvania Dutch. But all your VanRaaltes founded the Church down in Holland, the Dutch Reformed Church. That was one of the most prominent Dutch families to come from Holland. But here the Steketees and the Doorninks, and the, oh, I don’t know. There used to be more Steketees in the telephone book than there were Smiths, not now, of course, but they died out. Interviewer: Why did the Dutch come to this part of the United States? Mr. Idema: I can’t tell you, I don’t know. I know when my grandmother, they moved, they lived first in Buffalo, then they came from Buffalo to Grand Rapids, that’s my grandmother on my mother’s side. And what brought ‘em to Grand Rapids, I don’t know. I don’t know why they chose Grand Rapids, of course, a little bit of a village then – a town. Interviewer: Well, would the Dutch people that came here, were they a very close knit ethnic group? Mr. Idema: Pretty much, and very religious. Interviewer: Was your family a part of that group? Mr. Idema: I would say so, my grandmother on my mother’s side, more than on my father’s. I my father’s background is a little hazy to me; I don’t - I can’t tell you much about it. Interviewer: Where did the Dutch locate mostly, in Grand Rapids, did they kind of hang together in the same neighborhood? �10 Mr. Idema: No, I can’t recall that they did. We were about the only one on that neighborhood on Lyon Street. But the Dutch Church was on Bostwick Street, just off Lyon, called the Second Reformed Church, and the services were in Dutch language. My grandmother who lived with us, on my mother’s side spoke very little English. As a result of which I acquired a pretty good smattering of Dutch. Interviewer: Can you still speak it? Mr. Idema: Oh, yes. I can understand it better, (at least when I knew) I had no need of the vocabulary. I used to be pretty good in French when I went to college and took it four years. But I don’t use it, so I forget it. But I can understand Dutch; we have a cleaning woman who comes here every week and she speaks no English, why she and I get along fine. And it was a big help to my father when he went in the banking business, and, the Kent County Savings Bank, where he started, was called spaarbank. … Interviewer: What does that mean? Mr. Idema: Savings Bank Interviewer: Is that Dutch? Mr. Idema: Sure, it’s Dutch. It was on the corner of Lyon and it’s opposite where the Old National was, the other end of the Pantlind, which was then Sweet’s Hotel, before the Pantlind. Then the Kent County Savings Bank combined with the State Bank of Michigan, formed the Kent State Bank, which later combined with the Old National Bank and made the Old Kent Bank. They also took in the Fourth National Bank and People’s; that left only the Old Kent Michigan National. And the well, really, before the days of the Union Bank, there were only two banks. Mr. John E. Frey formed the Union Bank, Jack Frey, Ed Frey’s father. Dates I can’t give you – I don’t know. Interviewer: Who, who was kind of instrumental in tying together all these various banks to form the Old Kent? Mr. Idema: My father. Interviewer: Your father? Mr. Idema: Absolutely, he made it, he did it. Interviewer: What was his name? Mr. Idema: Henry. Interviewer: Henry Idema? �11 Mr. Idema: He lived to be ninety-five. He was active up to the time he was ninety. In those days they didn’t kick them out at sixty-five like they do all over now. They, they took, they has a little stuff left in ‘em. And he was very active in the bank in his eighties. Now when you’re sixtyfive, away you go. Everywhere. Interviewer: Yes, in some places I think it’s even lower than that. Mr. Idema: Yes, some of them have sixty two, and almost all of them have an option, if you want sixty five or sixty two you can, but you lose some benefits. My other brother, the third brother, Edward Idema, when he retired was the owner and operator of the Manufacturer’s Supply Company, which is now being run by his son named Henry Idema the second. So that was, what became of the three brothers. Interviewer: Did you associate, like, the kids that lived along Lyon Street, did they associate with the kids living over on, let’s say, Lafayette, Prospect…? Mr. Idema: Oh, to some extent, because if we went to the same school. But we were, we had enough of us in the area to take care of our needs for a little baseball or hockey or something like that. Oh, there were, I had friends on Crescent Avenue, and over on Prospect Street, sure… Interviewer: Where did you play ball in those days? Mr. Idema: Usually in our backyard. We had the biggest back yard, that’s where they played. Interviewer: What’s the address of that home up on Lyon Street? Mr. Idema: I don’t know. It was two eighty-four when I lived there, but I know it’s changed. It was bought by a Mr. Wagemaker, who bought it from my father and Isaac Wagemaker, and there he had a son named Ray, who owned and operated the Wagemaker Company making bolts, you know. He later bought this house directly across the street. And he died of a heart attack, about, I’d say five or six years ago. And I always called that the Wagemaker House, although he didn’t build it. But I never knew that, I never knew their family, except as I knew that they lived in the old house. Interviewer: Do you think that living is very much different today than when you were growing up? Mr. Idema: Sure is. Interviewer: How is it, what was the biggest difference? Mr. Idema: Well, your needs are so much, your economics are so different, your economy is different. Five cent sodas are thirty five cents and all that stuff, and I mean, money wasn’t so important. If a kid got fifty cents a week allowance he’d be pretty affluent. Now you get that much for nothing. The economy is tiring, change, right straight across the whole strata. Not just, �12 youth, it’s everybody. And I’m talking about previous to World War Two and way back in then, I was born in the eighteen eighties. We didn’t know, we had the Spanish American War, but that was no, that didn’t amount to anything. And of course, I was, after the Civil War, I hope. But we never, we didn’t have the war problem, we didn’t have the economy problem, we didn’t have the liquor problem. I don’t know, life was a lot easier, I’ll tell you that. [End of side one] Mr. Idema: Well, did you, were you in school with John? Interviewer: Yes, he was a year behind me. And Steve was in my grade. Mr. Idema: Yes, John just moved here within the last six months. He was in the army until last, well, I guess he got discharged about March, February, March. He’s out at Amway Corporation. Interviewer: Oh, is he? Mr. Idema: And Steve is head of the local Legal Aid and their oldest brother. Phil, is a partner with Crook, Fryhoffer and somebody, he’s been with them quite awhile. So they all live here, all have children, no, Steve doesn’t have any. Steve just came here from Denver. He was the head of the Legal Aid in Denver, or in the Legal Aid work. Previous to that he was with, oh, I’ve forgotten the name of that, the government deal, similar kind of work but he was down in the Caribbean. What was the name of that, VISTA, you know, VISTA, Volunteers In Service To America .Well, that brought him to Denver and he worked with the poor around Denver, and that kind of work, and then he was offered this job here and he came here oh, a couple of months ago. Interviewer: Let’s see, I was going to ask you about your wife, and you know, if she was a Grand Rapids girl and what her background was. Would [you] tell me a little about that? Mr. Idema: Not very much. She was born in Grand Rapids, and went to Grand Rapids’ schools, Smith College, graduated in nineteen thirteen; we were, in nineteen twelve we were married in nineteen thirteen. Interviewer: Did you build this house after, just after you were married? Mr. Idema: No, I didn’t build it ‘til nineteen seventeen. I moved in the day war was declared. And that was in April, nineteen seventeen. I enlisted and left here in February of nineteen eighteen, and I was gone until nineteen twenty or twenty-one. But I didn’t go overseas. I was in Camp Hancock, Georgia most the time. And she lived here; we had one child at that time. She lived in the house. Interviewer: Who built these homes, the other homes along Gay Street? Mr. Idema: I can’t tell you. I’m the newest house so I don’t know. �13 Interviewer: That one across the street, the Wagemaker house, you said that a… Mr. Idema: I don’t know, well, I know who owned it, Mr. John Duffy, had it built, that what you mean? Interviewer: Yes Mr. Idema: I don’t know the name of any builders… Interviewer: Yes? No, the people who… Mr. Idema: John Duffy bought it, built it, and paid for it. He was the head of the Grand Rapids Hardware Company. And as I told you, Wagemaker bought it out of the Duffy estate, after John Duffy died, and Mrs. Duffy. The house down here belonged to; I don’t think it was built by him, but belonged to Joseph Brewer. Interviewer: Whose house is that, the one that the Lockwoods live in? Mr. Idema: No, the next house. Interviewer: Oh, yes. Mr. Idema: That’s an apartment house, and that is in their garage, and so… the Lockwood house, I can’t tell you who built it, but I think it was a man named Childs. And his probably the oldest house on the street, except the one on the corner, but that faces Washington. And the Gay property, the Gay house faces Fulton, and the one up on the corner, which belonged to Mr. Mormon, he built that, that faces Fulton. Interviewer: That’s the green house there on the corner? Mr. Idema: Well, they’re all apartment houses except Mrs. Lockwood’s and this one. And not only there, but all the way around this block every single one of ‘em are apartment houses. There isn’t a single apa… a single house, in the block which I’m sitting. That’s the way the change is, all single houses when I built. There was no East Grand Rapids as we know it today. We used to go out there by the streetcar and go up to the show at Ramona. That was East Grand Rapids. But, if I knew then what I know now, I’d never built here. Interviewer: Why is that? Mr. Idema: Why is that? Interviewer: Yes? If you knew what… Mr. Idema: If I knew, what I know now? Interviewer: Yes? What do you know now that you didn’t know then? �14 Mr. Idema: Well, I know that we’re in right on the edge of a slum. I mean, the character of the people, the houses, everything, we’re in a, they had a, well, tonight, right down here night before last. Interviewer: Where’s that, on Washington? Mr. Idema: Yes, just off Washington. They snatch purses around here. I wouldn’t, well, I finally persuaded the city to put up this light, I got a big light out here that lights itself, but… we’re only two blocks away from Wealthy and that’s all colored, and that’s where the trouble is. Don’t I I (didn’t) want that on. Interviewer: No, that won’t be on, won’t reprint that. Mr. Idema: I’d I mean I don’t, you don’t talk that way. Interviewer: No. Why do you think that the, what, what caused these homes to go from single family residences to apartment houses? Mr. Idema: Because nobody kept up, and built decent houses, they all went out to East Grand Rapids. That’s where all the money is in the houses. Interviewer: In other words, the economics that maintained a home like this aren’t very much different for maintaining a sizable home in East Grand Rapids… Mr. Idema: What do you mean, cost? Interviewer: Yes, Mr. Idema: Oh, that isn’t a matter of cost. They just don’t want to be in this neighborhood anymore, and I wouldn’t either. Interviewer: Why did they all move out in the first place? Mr. Idema: Well, why does anything like that occur or any movement, migration? I can’t tell you. Interviewer: Well, the reason why I asked is that I was talking to, I was interviewing someone last week I think it was either Mrs. Whinery or Mrs. Lockwood, and they said that the Ledyard property up there on the corner of Cherry and College that six generations of family lived. Mr. Idema: That’s the Oakwood Manor. Interviewer: Yes, where they opened the Hillmount, that six generations of the family lived there, on that same plot of ground. Mr. Idema: Yes, that’s right, and they die out. �15 Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Idema: Nobody comes along. Interviewer: Yes, that’s another, other people we’ve interviewed talk about how their family, well, I’ve talked to George Shelby and he said that the family built the, the house that’s commonly known as the Booth house, his family built that, and they built another one on the corner, and they built another one next to that. Mr. Idema: I don’t know. Shelby ought to. Those are beautiful houses, on Lafayette Street, that was, well, and this was top grade. Interviewer: Well, this is still a beautiful house. Mr. Idema: Of course it is, but isn’t a beautiful neighborhood. It’s a lousy neighborhood. Interviewer: Well, I think there’s kind of a move among young people at least. I noticed up on, I haven’t seen a house for sale on Gay Street in a long time, but, up on the hill there, the houses come up for sale, and they’re sold pretty quickly. Now, I don’t whether it’s a… Mr. Idema: Because they’re cheap… Interviewer: I don’t know – I never looked at prices. Mr. Idema: Well, East Grand Rapids prices are way up, compared to ours, for a similar thing. My kids and grandchildren bought out there, one of them built, gee, what they have to pay for a house would make you sick. But, they all want to be out in East Grand Rapids. Interviewer: What, if you want to answer this one, but, just out of curiosity, just what, what did a house like this cost you to build when you built it? Mr. Idema: Forty-two thousand dollars. Interviewer: That was pretty expensive house at that time too. Mr. Idema: Oh, you couldn’t do it today for a hundred. Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Idema: That’s with everything. And I know that because I just discussed selling it. People want to know exactly what it cost, and they have a right to. But that was in nineteen seventeen, that’s fifty-five years ago, fifty-four, sixty-four, so you can’t compare it because anymore than you can compare furniture that was made then, or any automobile. When I moved in here I bought a Cadillac, nineteen forty-one, at one time, while I was living; what do you suppose the price was? �16 Interviewer: For a forty-one Cadillac? Mr. Idema: I have no idea. Interviewer: Four door, everything on it, was sixteen hundred and twenty-five dollars. That car today is sixty, [er] six thousand dollars. And that’s the way with everything. If I were to build, I wouldn’t build this house today, I wouldn’t build this type of house, I’d have a more modern house. This isn’t modern. It’s old, but isn’t an old fashioned house, but, there are a lot of things about it, I’d put in air conditioning if I was building. There are a lot of things that I would do. But that time’s past. One day, this will be another apartment house, I presume. It has six bedrooms and four baths, and the entire first floor, this room and that room and the hall, is one great big recreation room. Interviewer: What, down below us? Mr. Idema: I’ve had fifty people here to a dance, orchestra and the whole business down there. Interviewer: It’s a beautiful place. Mr. Idema: Well, it was then, it was, been a happy home for many years, kids grew up in it, and but, it’s in the wrong location. Interviewer: You didn’t really answer that, of course, maybe you don’t really know the reasons but the question I had is - why did people move out of this area? I mean, why did they start moving to East Grand Rapids, or Cascade, or wherever they moved? Mr. Idema: Oh, they were attracted by the terrain, and the very strong work done by certain realtors, one of which was Mr. Bonnell. [Do] you know where Bonnell Drive is? Well, Mr. Bonnell bought all that property in there, and had it landscaped, and new streets put through and they sold lots. Mr. Gilbert, Will Gilbert, bought where I used to play golf out there where East Grand Rapids is now, part of that. And, that’s all East Grand Rapids now, the water’s there, the lake, everything that attracted. There’s nothing attractive about this part of town, not now. When I built it there wasn’t any East Grand Rapids. As I told you, Ramona, but not, there were no homes like there are now. The Edward Lowe home, which is now Aquinas College, was built approximately nineteen hundred and one or two. You know where that is? That’s now, well that is on the South side of Robinson Road, at the end of Plymouth and that was the Edward Lowe house. He lived, when he built that house out there, he lived over here on the corner of College and Washington, which is the Insurance Company office, directly across from WOOD [TV]) Interviewer: Oh, yes. Mr. Idema: That was, that’s where I lived, that’s my father bought it of Mr. Lowe, sold the house up on Lyon, to Wagemaker. Interviewer: And bought which house…? �17 Mr. Idema: The one up on College Avenue on the corner Interviewer: Is that house still standing? Mr. Idema: Oh, I’ll say it is, sure. Interviewer: Is that the Castle? Mr. Idema: No, no, no, this end, Washington Street. The Castle’s on Cherry Street. Interviewer: Oh, Washington and College. Mr. Idema: Washington and College, south west corner. Interviewer: Oh, yes, I see, yes. Mr. Idema: It’s an insurance company. I sold it after my father died and my mother, to this insurance company. That was before WOOD [TV] was put up, which is an abortion. That was a beautiful block of homes, from Cherry to Fulton, on College. You can see that, well, you know the Waters’ house still stands. And then the Bissell house was there, that was where WOOD is. And down on the corner the Aldrich house, the Pantlind house, on this side the Castle, and the Byrnes, John Byrne’s house, and the Voigt house, and then that house my father owned, beautiful block, every house in there was a beautiful, big house. Look at them now. Awful. One’s an insurance company, another’s torn down, and the Waters’ house is the Waters’ house. And it’s an apartment house. Interviewer: Yes, and they’ve got all those others, those multiple living, high rises. Mr. Idema: Oh, as a residential section, this Grand Rapids is sunk. If you got any money, I mean, if people have got to buy fifteen thousand dollar houses, you can’t go to East Grand Rapids. You’ve got to buy where they can afford to, which is Grand Rapids, per se. But it’s, that doesn’t make it any more attractive. Interviewer: You think the automobile had much of an effect on the dispersal of the society? Mr. Idema: On what? Interviewer: On the dispersal of people, in other words, everyone lived in this area all of a sudden are living… Mr. Idema: Oh, I don’t know. Everybody had cars. Interviewer: Everybody had cars before East Grand Rapids started developing? Mr. Idema: I can’t tell you that, I don’t know. I think the first car in our family was nineteen four, when we lived on Lyon Street, and that was a Winton. But cars weren’t cars then, I mean, �18 they didn’t depend on them. Trip from here to Detroit took all day. There wasn’t the fluid moment movement that there is now, and that, automobiles have come as you know, in the last fifteen-twenty years was a tremendous rush. I won’t say they didn’t have something to do with it, because without the automobile, East Grand Rapids would be left high and dry. You can’t walk out there, but to say that that‘s the reason, I don’t know. But this so-called Heritage District that you mentioned is, you’ve taken in an awful lot of territory, you’ve taken in some, I think very run down places. You’ve got some good ones. Interviewer: Well, I think that’s what the Heritage Hill people are concerned with, is not necessarily you know, the junk that’s in there, but the good houses that are still standing that can be preserved. Mr. Idema: What they gonna do with ‘em? Interviewer: From what I’ve seen, some of these homes, they are trying to persuade the people that own them to, you know fix ‘em up, maintain them, keep ’em in good shape instead of letting them decline and… Mr. Idema: With what incentive? Interviewer: Well, the incentive to maintain an area that they think is beautiful. Mr. Idema: Why? Interviewer: Because it’s like this street here, you can’t go out to East Grand Rapids and find a street like this, maybe Bonnell Avenue, but that’s it. Mr. Idema: Oh, yes, you can, these houses are old-fashioned…. Interviewer: That’s right that’s, but out there, like you say, if you were building today, you’d build a modern house. Mr. Idema: Why, sure. Interviewer: But you don’t find homes like the homes in this area, built out there. A lot of people find these homes, homes along Gay Street and …. Mr. Idema: Oh, I think that house across the street, the Duffy house, I would say architecturally, it was a great deal like the Fitzgerald house. Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Idema: And that’s in East Grand Rapids, and this was here. I don‘t think that’s, that’s follows at all. I might put this same house if I could find a spot on Reed’s Lake, and it would be in keeping, I mean, it’s not old-fashioned, in spite of the fact it’s that old, it’s architecturally, it’s �19 still good. And outside, you can say, look at that old house. But this house could have built last year. Interviewer: Well, I guess we’ve got enough. Think so? Mr. Idema: You’ve milked me. INDEX B K Bonnell, Mr. · 16 Kent County Savings Bank · 10 D Dennison, Judge · 6 Duffy, John · 13, 18 E L Lockwood Family · 13, 14 Lowe, Edward · 16 O Elliot Machine Company · 2, 3 Old Kent Bank · 4, 10 F P Fountain Street School · 2 Frey, John E. · 10 Peninsular Club · 5 G S Gilbert, Will · 16 Grand Rapids Store Equipment Corporation · 3 Shelby, George · 15 Smith College · 12 Steelcase · 4, 5 Steketee's · 8 H Herpolsheimer’s · 8 U I University Club · 5, 6 University of Michigan · 2, 5 Idema, Edward · 11 Idema, Henry (Father) · 8, 9, 10, 11, 16, 17 Idema, Johanna Wilhelmina Doornink (Mother) · 8, 9, 10, 17 W Wagemaker, Isaac · 11, 13, 16 Wanty, Tom · 5 Wege, Peter · 4 �20 Whinery, Mrs. · 14 Wurzburg’s · 8 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/117ab6d09f5daa4acebb2faf48e2759d.mp3 917681dc9d2837b6e5939fdaf03577f1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_16-17Idema Title A name given to the resource Idema, Chester Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Idema, Chester Description An account of the resource Chester Idema was born on August 18, 1886 in Grand Rapids. He graduated from the University of Michigan in 1909. He worked at the Elliot Machine Co. in Pennsylvania. In 1913, he married Marion Mead. During WWI, Mr. Idema enlisted in the military. Afterward, he worked at Old Kent Bank for 19 years and became a vice president. Mr. Idema belonged to the University Club and the Peninsular Club. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b448313da33b45dd941ed2266b9fea46.pdf a12ed8039e824e6c18b9a0cd660746f4 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Miss Dorothy Blake Interviewed on September 20, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #14 and 15 (47:17) Biographical Information Dorothy Stuart Blake, the daughter of William Frederick Blake and Adeline Louise “Alde” Tuck was born 23 July 1889 in Grand Rapids. She passed away at the age of 88 on 4 September 1977 in Grand Rapids. William F. Blake, the son of Increase Blake and Sarah Farnsworth was born 3 May 1851 in Farmington Falls, Franklin County, Maine. He died at his home at 320 S. College Avenue, Grand Rapids on Christmas Eve 1915 and is buried in the Blake Cemetery in Farmington, Franklin County, Maine. William was in the wholesale grocery business and came to Grand Rapids in 1887. Mr. Blake was married 15 March 1881 in Farmington, Maine to Adeline Louise “Alde” Tuck. Alde was the daughter of Dr. Cyrus Dean Tuck and Adeline Lucy Colby. She was born 8 June 1857 in Falmouth, Cumberland County, Maine and moved with her parents to Farmington, Franklin County before 1870. Her death occurred on 29 April 1925 in Grand Rapids and she is also buried in the Blake Cemetery. ___________ Blake: You probably want a limit on time too, don‟t you for each question, or don‟t you? Interviewer: No just, you just talk as long as you want. Miss Blake, it looks as though you‟re in the process of moving, you are in the process of moving from this house. We‟re at three-twenty College South East. How long have you lived in this house? Blake: I have lived here since eighteen ninety-three. Interviewer: Did your family move here? Blake: My family moved up here from the old Warwick Hotel, which later became the Cody, which was later turned into a parking ramp. Interviewer: Was your family living in the hotel at the time? Blake: Yes, and we moved up here I remember there were only two houses on the whole west side of the street, between College, between Cherry and Wealthy. And one house is what I think was called the, the Waddell house, and later was called the Hudson house, which is still standing, �2 and the other house was a dark red brick with a forbidding looking door that looked like a prison door, and Mr. and Mrs. Shaw lived there. They were old people then, and I don‟t remember of course who built the house, or if it was the Shaws or not, but they were living there, at that time. And all the rest of the block was on the east side was a vacant lot, and a cow pasture and an apple orchard, through which I had to walk to go to school, the old Wealthy Avenue School. Interviewer: Where was the Wealthy Avenue School located? Blake: It was, where it is now, only an older building and the entrance was on Wealthy Street, and now it‟s called the Vandenberg School of course, the Wealthy entrance is on Lafayette. Interviewer: Well, were you a child then, when you moved up, how old? Blake: Oh yeah, I was four years old when we moved up here, so… Interviewer: Did your family build this house? Blake: No, it was about, I think this house had been lived in two and a half years. There was only one family that occupied this house before we moved up, and that was the Brouwer family I think. There were three Brouwer boys I believe, Evert O. Brouwer, and Jack Brouwer, and Otto Brouwer was born in this house. Well, they were renting it from father. Interviewer: Well then, then your father did build the house, but he was rented it from somebody? Blake: He bought it. Interviewer: Oh. Blake: And rented it for a couple of years before we moved up. Interviewer: I see, what kind of business was your father in? Blake: He was in the wholesale grocery business, with teas and coffees, as his specialty, which ultimately turned out to be the manager of the tea department for Judson Grocery Company. Interviewer: Had he been born in Grand Rapids? Blake: He was born in Maine, Farmington Falls, Maine. My mother was born in Farmington, Maine. Interviewer: Did they meet each other in Maine? Blake: They met each other when Mother went to Farmington Falls to teach school, they had never met before, they grew up seven miles apart—just a horse and buggy road between. �3 Interviewer: What a, what was the reason they finally moved to Grand Rapids, your father and mother moved here? Blake: He started West, to be the, now you‟ve got me, on going back that far. This is just what, what I heard from them, of course, that he started West, he was a lawyer, at that time, and he started west to be the corporation lawyer for a mining company in Utah. And when he got to Chicago, he was met by a telegram saying that the mine was flooded, and they have to postpone the working of it for a while. Well, it was postponed forever apparently, so father was stuck in Chicago, and that‟s when he, got a wholesale grocery and teas and coffees to work with a cousin of his, who started him out in Chicago. Then later they moved to Grand Rapids. And he stayed in that business instead of in the law. Interviewer: That‟s interesting. Where was this store located in Grand Rapids? Blake: Oh the Judson Grocery Company, gracious, oh, it was downtown. But on what street I‟ve forgotten. Interviewer: Do you remember going to the grocery store as a child? Blake: Yes, and before that to the Worden Grocery Company, was the first one, and father was one of the organizers of that, and then later he joined the Judson grocery. Interviewer: What was downtown like in those days? Blake: Well, I really don‟t know what you mean by that question. Interviewer: How did if differ from today, for example? Or did it differ at all? Blake: Well, we had streetcars, now we have buses. The streetcars were, ran on an overhead trolley. And some of our, well, I don‟t know about downtown, it had its big department stores, Spring Dry Goods Store was one of the best. It had Herpolsheimer‟s, it had Wurzburg‟s. They were early settlers in this neighborhood, too. Interviewer: What was it like growing up in this neighborhood? Blake: Oh, it was very, it was a very happy life, most of it centered around home, of course, and, well most, most of our fun was right here. We played croquet on the back lawn, we packed up picnics and got on the Cherry-Shawmut Streetcar line and went to John Ball Park for a day‟s outing, that was, that was fun. There were some animals there, but, the zoo was not as large as we have now. But there was, that was one of our joys. And another was, on a hot day, get on the Wealthy-Taylor streetcar, for five cents, and ride from one end of the city to the other, on the car to get cool. And one end was at North Park, and the other end of the line was Reed‟s Lake we called it. And Reed‟s Lake was one of the places where we had lots of good times. There were rides on a steamer for ten cents, rides as long as you chose, stay on all day if you wanted to, and we‟d take picnic lunches with us. And there was a, an excellent vaudeville, high class vaudeville, �4 outdoors in the pavilion there, which was one of the things to do if you wanted recreation. Another thing was to hire a team, there used to be a livery stable down on the corner of LaGrave and Wealthy, and father [would] hire a rig and a couple of horses and we‟d pack up a picnic lunch and we‟d drive to Cascade and Ada, where he had some trade in the general stores there so he‟d combine a little business with a picnic spree for us. Interviewer: What kind of a road went from the city here to Cascade and Ada? Blake: I think, now I‟m not sure, I think it was a gravel road. It might have been just plain dirt road, but I can remember as the gravel road, especially the gravel road to Ada. Interviewer: Well, outside of these little excursions around the city, most of your life did center around the home then. Blake: Oh yes. Interviewer: Can you describe to me what your home life, somewhat, what a…? Blake: Well, when we were very small, mother had help that lived in the house, and, one maid would do the washing, the ironing, the cooking, the cleaning, for her board and room, and a, very small amount per week. And then later, when we grew up and had our own tasks assigned to us for housekeeping, mother hired help by the day, a dollar a day was, was for the price for years. And then outside help would do the washing, the wash bench and two tubs and a wringer, out on a big back porch. And she‟d hang it out and she‟d iron it, and then she‟d come another day to do the cleaning. Well, that isn‟t so very different from what we have now except the washers are all automatic. Interviewer: Were there, did your family have many activities with other families in the neighborhood? Blake: Oh yes, there was a wonderful neighborhood. The houses on the east side where I‟m living were all single family houses, except one, there was one, it was a what did you call it, a double house, upstairs and downstairs there were two families. All the rest were single families. We knew every family on the block. And the whole block, especially the older people, the fathers and mothers would get together and have their parties. And sometimes the children would get together and put on a theatrical performance of their own making, and the parents would turn out and pay a penny a piece or so many pins a piece for the privilege of watching our activities. That was fun, homemade fun. The families they were families that stayed put, at least two generations of the same family would be living in the same houses in here. Interviewer: Why do you think that was? Why did the families, for example, would two generations of a family be the same neighborhood? Why was there that, for what reason was there that stability? �5 Blake: I don‟t know. I suppose because they had lovely houses, good homes, they didn‟t care about going away for very long. Interviewer: What do you think changed all of that? Blake: The automobile, and then later the airplane. The automobile did a lot of changing, for better and for worse, too. Interviewer: Was there a, how would you classify in terms of economic position, the people that lived here on south College compared with for example, the people that lived on Jefferson or up on the Hill. Was there a difference? Blake: I don‟t know that there was any particular difference. Jefferson was an avenue of homes too; some very beautiful homes there. Even Sheldon had some beautiful homes. Some of the political parades used to go down Sheldon. People would sit out on their front porches and watch. Interviewer: You were involved in some women‟s suffrage activities. What exactly was your involvement? When did you first become interested in it? Blake: Oh, I suppose when I was a small child, I was indoctrinated with the idea of women‟s rights, after all, I had three sisters, and we were a woman family. And well as a little girl, I did things like selling suffrage newspapers downtown, either inside or outside the store; it was perfectly safe to be on the streets. And soon as I got out of college, I helped with the nineteen twelve campaign, which was a very lively one; Dr. Wishart was the manager of that. And we had an office downtown, and I had an old typewriter that I took down there and did office work for them. And my younger sisters rode in parades, dressed up in the suffrage colors, and with banners and, and pamphlets decorating the floats. Oh, we did so many things I, I think one of my fondest memories was, the one that will always stay with me, was meeting Susan B. Anthony. She was seventy-nine years old when she came to Grand Rapids. We had the national convention here in Grand Rapids in eighteen ninety-nine, and she came, and Howard Shaw came, a brilliant list of people who were present at that, that convention, that lasted for several days. And mother took me to meet Miss Anthony one afternoon. She was a guest at Mrs. John Blodgett‟s house, which had been torn down now, where the Stuyvesant is now. I can remember my impression of her, it as very sweet, gentle, little, old lady who was courteous and treated me just as if I were important. She was, and she signed my birthday book for me, and put the date in it. That‟s one of my fond memories. The next year she was unable to travel, I believe, and it wasn‟t too long after that than she passed away. Interviewer: Why, why did they hold the national convention in Grand Rapids, was a, how did Grand Rapids happen to be chosen? �6 Blake: Grand Rapids just simply went after it and insisted that they come here, and they said they always met in Washington, D.C. and they fought coming here, but finally, the men were on the job too, there was a very strong men‟s suffrage at work with Dr. Wishart on the job too. Interviewer: Who was Dr. Wishart? Blake: Oh, he was the minister at Fountain Street Baptist church, very prominent man, nationally prominent. And then all of the, the Chamber of Commerce I think they called it then, the Men‟s Chamber of Commerce went after it tooth and nail, they just worked for it, offered lots of things, lots of inducements to the women if they would hold their national convention in Grand Rapids. And they finally won out, they did all sorts of things for them, the St. Cecilia was the auditorium where they held their meetings. The Warwick Hotel was their headquarters, and some of the delegates of course were entertained in private homes. But that was a great feather in the suffrage cap of the nation, because always they had before and after, at least, held their meetings in Washington. Interviewer: Were many women in this neighborhood, in the Hill District, the Hill area, involved with women‟s suffrage at that time? Blake: All of them that I knew were. But I don‟t know that I can name them, but it was a very homogenous neighborhood. Interviewer: Was there any reaction by the men against the, the women‟s demand for rights, equal rights? Blake: Very little, in fact the men did as much for us as we, at that particular convention, as we could. We, both men and women, went all out for that, to bring that convention here to Grand Rapids. Interviewer: Would women in the Hill District that were associated with, what was the name of your group? Did you have a name for your organization or… Blake: Well, there was the National Women‟s Suffrage organization, and then there was the State Women‟s Suffrage organization, and I suppose there was the Grand Rapids Equal Suffrage Club. Interviewer: Would there be meetings held at different women‟s home and one thing or another, did you have regular meetings? Blake: Oh, well, those would just be committee meetings, the, the big meetings were held in halls like St. Cecilia‟s. That was one of the favorite places, the size and the, of course the building itself has wonderful acoustics. Ladies Literary Club was another place where important meetings were held. At that convention, as well as others, the Ladies Literary Club was open too. Interviewer: Did the Ladies Literary Club have a regular clubhouse? �7 Blake: Oh, yes, they, they had their own clubhouse, owned it, one of the first in the country to build and own their own clubhouse. The St. Cecilia was another, it was the first musical organization to build their own clubhouse, and own it. Both those buildings were very much used in that era. Well, they still are. Interviewer: Were they important social organizations? Blake: Yes, they were both leaders in their own field. St. Cecilia in the field of music and the Ladies Literary Club in the well, the field of general culture and literary work particularly. I remember meeting Woodrow Wilson at the Ladies Literary Club. President Taft was there at one time, I think he was the only president who was, [who] came to the Ladies Literary Club, during his presidency. Interviewer: Came here to Grand Rapids? Blake: Yeah. To speak a the Ladies Literary Club, I think that while he was president, I think he‟s the only president who ever did and it was Mrs. McKnight who got him to come. Interviewer: How did she induce him to come? Blake: She could, she could, I don‟t know how to put it, she could induce almost anybody to, to come to Grand Rapids, if she thought it important, Interviewer: Who was Mrs. McKnight? Blake: Oh, well she was President of the Ladies Literary Club, she was one of the organizers and Presidents of the “Alliance Française”, the French Club in Grand Rapids, she was a great authority on are, she was a great traveler, European traveler, visited all the important places in Paris, and came home and gave talks on it. She was one of the, one of the, shall I say social; another adjective would be better, leaders in Grand Rapids, social, educational, and cultural leaders in Grand Rapids. Mrs. William F. McKnight. Interviewer: Was there, what was it what happened when Taft came? Did the city celebrate or put on any big festivities? Blake: There must have been but I don‟t remember. I probably was in school. No, I wouldn‟t have been at school because he came on a Saturday, I remember that much. There probably was a parade, I don‟t remember, that fact I cut out, but I can remember seeing him. Interviewer: What did you do after you got out of college? Did you spend most of your time in suffrage work? Blake: I stayed home that one year, and worked through the campaign of nineteen twelve, but that was the Michigan Campaign, and then after that I taught school. �8 Interviewer: Where did you teach? Blake: I taught in Hesperia for two years; I taught in Lowell for three years; I taught in Union High School, Grand Rapids, for thirty-four years. That was an ideal school to teach in, perfectly delightful. Interviewer: Union, Grand Rapids Union High School? Blake: Yeah. Interviewer: What was considered the, the best high school in the city? Blake: That was. Interviewer: Grand Rapids Union? Blake: And it wasn‟t because I taught there either. It a, we got that said, of course we, we teachers, we had a good, a very good staff there at Union, and we all enjoyed our work and we had good material. Our material was a melting pot; all sorts of nationalities were represented in, in the student body. And the various teachers who did supply work, in all the high schools, there were five high schools before I finished teaching, there was just one when I went to Central High School, but when I, when there were five high schools and supply teachers had experience in each one of those high schools, they said without question that Union High school was the best, or that they enjoyed it the most, put it either way. Interviewer: Central High School was the high school for the Hill District, wasn‟t it? Blake: Yes, and that was the first full high school. That is twelve, had all four high school grades, ninth, tenth, eleventh, and twelfth grades. Interviewer: Didn‟t Union? Blake: Union at different times had a different setup, as to grades. Now at one time, while I was teaching, they had everything under one roof at Union, from the kindergarten up through the twelfth grade, and an automobile repair shop, all in the same building. And I think the later years that I was there, they began with the seventh grade, and that‟s what they call junior high, and senior high, seventh, eighth and ninth were junior high: tenth, eleventh, and twelfth were senior high. And of course now they use different names, middle school and so on. But ours were junior and senior high. That was after Union had such a large enrollment that they couldn‟t have the kindergarten grades in there anymore, so they went over to Harrison Park. Interviewer: Did Union at one time serve as I understand it, they had three grades in the High School, and then for the senior year students would transfer to Central. �9 Blake: At one time. That was back before… that lasted up until nineteen six, I believe, when there was just one graduating class in the whole city. And that was from Central. In Nineteen six, I can remember that the tenth graders, the twelfth graders, had to come over from Union and take their work in Central. And after that, they added the twelfth grade to Union. Interviewer: Were you very active in the Ladies Literary Club? Blake: No, in fact I was not a member… Interviewer: Oh, Blake: My mother was very active and she often took me as a guest when she could to the… Interviewer: Is she one of the ones that help found the club? Blake: I don‟t know, I don‟t think so but it must have been pretty nearly as early as that because it wasn‟t a very old club at the time. Interviewer: Why did the, were, well, did women, did a lot of women belong to the Ladies Literary Club? Blake: Oh yes, very, very active club. Interviewer: Why…? Blake: I think it still is. Interviewer: What, for what reason would women become active in that club? Blake: It was the only club of its kind in the city except for the West Side Ladies Literary Club, or the West Side Literary Club, I think that was. And I don‟t know whether the west side club antedates, I don‟t think it antedates the Ladies Literary Club, it may have been a branch, I don‟t know. It may have been a branch of it, but that‟s a very old club too, the West Side Literary Club. But I think the Ladies Literary Club was the first to organize, I think it was unique in the country. Interviewer: What kind of activities would they have at the club? Blake: Well, mostly literary, of course, usually some music on their programs, speakers, the most important speakers from the country that they could get and it depended very largely on the Presidents who was the best getter of speakers from other places. And political interest came in, of course non-partisan, but they were inte…, they were very alive club. Interviewer: Would you say it was the center of cultural activity for women at that time? �10 Blake: I divide honors between that and the St. Cecilia. Of course the St. Cecilia was primarily music, but the two combined made the, quite a strong influence for culture in Grand Rapids. Of course, a great many of the women were members of both, the St. Cecilia and the Ladies Literary Club. Interviewer: I‟m going to turn this tape over, it‟s almost out, and I have just a couple more questions I won‟t be able to get them… [End of side one] Blake: Don‟t know whether he was born in Grand Rapids, but he was a Grand Rapids boy, and we were, we were just devoted to the Library, why we spent a great deal of time there, went to all the library lectures, ever since, in the room the other day with Mr. Collins, I had come in for some other, no I had come in to see him and give him some papers I had, and I looked around and I said, “well, this used to be the lecture room, didn‟t it?” Of course it‟s something else now, but it was the old lecture room; when we went to every lecture there was, I believe, in it. And they had a very lively program, in it, the library. It‟s always been in good hands, the library I could remember that part. Then I, I put down women‟s suffrage because you mentioned that. And then I scribbled down here, I guess how people lived, maybe suggestion. Now, what did we used to like to do when we could do whatever we pleased? And then I thought of the streetcars we had no horse of our own, and of course there weren‟t any automobiles then anyways as far as I know, but we used to like to ride, to ride the streetcars. Cool off on a hot day, you‟d get on an open streetcar. You‟ve seen pictures at least of open streetcars? Interviewer: I‟m not sure. Blake: Well, where the seats go right straight across. You get on from the side, you step on and slide into your seat. They‟re all open, and of course when the cars are going we have a delightful breeze. Made, made to order. You could ride from one end of the city to the other, you see, which meant back from Reed‟s Lake to North Park or the Soldiers Home or a little beyond it, or the pavilion out there at North Park where there is usually music or something going on. But we‟d usually stay on the car, and it would turn around and then come back. We might have had to pay another five cents to get back, but… But anyway, you could ride from one end of the city to the other for five cents. So, I jotted down there, Wealthy- Scribner. And the names amused me too, they did even then, we used to laugh over the names of our streetcars. Wealthy-Scribner, Wealthy-Taylor, Cherry-Shawmut, aren‟t those silly names? But the Wealthy was because it went down the length of Wealthy, Wealthy Avenue, they called it. Now it‟s called Wealthy Street, but it was Wealthy Avenue that, that‟s where the line began. And Scribner was way over on the west side. Well, Scribner Street‟s still there, and Wealthy Street‟s still there, but that was the Wealthy-Scribner line. Well then the Wealthy-Taylor line was the longer still, because that went way out Taylor Street, now that‟s on the west side too, way out to North Park. So no wait, is Taylor on the west side? �11 Interviewer: I don‟t even know where Taylor is… Blake: There is, the river turns there some, Division, no, we didn‟t cross the river. No Taylor isn‟t on the west side, I, I was wrong there, because we didn‟t cross the river when we went out to North Park. So Taylor must be in that direction. But we went past what we call the Soldiers Home, it‟s now called the Veteran‟s facility, and out to a pavilion that, that was there near the bridge that did cross over to the west side. Now that, that bridge was way out at Comstock Park. So Taylor must be out there, in that direction. I ought to know, but I don‟t; mixed up on that, but the names Wealthy-Scribner, Wealthy-Taylor, people from other cities used to say, “You have the queerest names for your streets” Now the Shawmut, what a name, and Cherry, and Cherry, Cherry Street, why Cherry Street? Well, maybe they had cherry trees once, I don‟t remember, but Wealthy-Scribner, Wealthy-Taylor, Reed‟s Lake, Cherry-Shawmut, John Ball Park, and they thought John Ball Park must be a place where they have ball games; of course… there isn‟t any out there. We had to explain that John Ball was one of the pioneers in Grand Rapids, that that park was named after him. I hope you dump out a lot of this, you take them will you. Interviewer: Do you think that, well you were a school teacher for a long time, how has the society changed or has it changed from the days when you were growing up? And what do you attribute that change to? Blake: Well, of course the recent change I‟d say has taken place within the last four years. I think its chaos now. Standards are, standards are broken down; many people have no standards, they just think they can do what they please. Which I call communistic, they might as well be shipped off to Russia the way they act. And the way they simply think they can help themselves to anything. Gangs come around, throwing stones and, and… Interviewer: Do you have that problem down here on College? Blake: Right here, they haven‟t hit the house yet; they don‟t quite dare. And they can‟t quite reach the house for they, it‟s, it‟s a gang that is sort of between little colored people and grown, and they‟re, they‟re all, the gang is all colored. That isn‟t one that, that comes around here occasionally, and they seem to recruit from somewhere over on Paris Avenue, which is almost solid black. You know that, that block there, there are three white families that I know are still living there, up near Cherry. But I think most of those in through here don‟t know how live. And that has been, that neighborhood has run down, don‟t quote me on these things please, but that neighborhood has run down for many years, because a real estate man who was buying up all the properties just let it go to, well, go to pieces. And let the houses run down, didn‟t care who rented them, but one of the former renters there told me that, that she was charged an enormous rent for a horrible room in one of the houses back here, and well the backyards are, well they are cleaned up a little bit, but they‟re not too good there. There are cars parked all over in the backyards, and sometimes people climbing all over the tops of them. That one time there were six, for heaven‟s sakes, don‟t quote me, I‟m, I‟m getting some of the dope on this area. But �12 we‟ve had, and, and why, I don‟t know why, we‟ve suddenly changed. The lack of standards, the lack of any idea of what‟s right nor wrong or is what, what‟s it seems to me that some of them think well, whatever they want to do is right. Well they have a right to which isn‟t right at all. They have no standards, but the gang here, made up of both little and big, are the one I dealt with happened to be all colored. And they throw stones, and pieces of cement and bricks, I don‟t know where they get the bricks, from the fence line, my back fence line there, and the garage back there; I have a drive, short driveway on this side whenever I. They in order to make a lot of no[ise], they could, they couldn‟t throw far enough to hit the house, there‟s a big back lawn there, they really were a bunch of cowards and they didn‟t quite dare, but really what‟s fortunate they didn‟t dare come over the fence. A, so they put a dishpan out so it would make a lot of noise from where, they threw from the fence and threw towards the dishpan so it would make a resounding noise, their bricks and their stones and oh boy… Well they did that one day when I was here. I spend a part of everyday down here, trying to clear up this house, clear out a little each day, but one morning when I came down from Oakwood Manor, I looked out the back window and the lawn was scattered with bricks and stones they‟d been throwing „em, either the night before or early morning, and I really should have had the police come up and look at it. But it was the day that, that the trucks come along and clean up everything or they did for a while. So I thought well, I better get this, this stuff out in front for the trucks to pick up so I did. But I should have called the police out first, to take a look at it. I told them about it afterwards, but, they said, “Did they do any damage to the house?” I said, well I can‟t prove it, but there is broken glass around, but they, they were at a distance when they threw those things, and they didn‟t hit the house. Damage was merely to my nerves…and house to clean up, but anyway, that sort of thing seems to spring up all of a sudden. And, sometimes they swarm around the car out there, there parked in the driveway and one day they came around, they must have had either a stone or a brick in their hands, I don‟t know, and whanged against the house you know and one these, oh, forget what, anyway, to make all the noise they could, trying to terrorize the, whoever was inside the house. They didn‟t break a single glass, but I was afraid they would so I called the police. And if the police had come at once they would have seen the whole gang of them. By the time a policeman got up here, I had called a second time, I said I need the police, and I need them now, well, I said, the gang‟s right here, and take a picture of them. And said well he‟s on the way, well, the nice policeman was on the way, but when he came here… Interviewer: They were gone: Blake: They vanished into thin air, where they went and how, I don‟t know. It was just like that and they were gone. And he asked me their names… Why, I said, “I don‟t know their names.” “Well, what‟d they look like?” I said, “To me those colored people all look alike.” And, “What did they wear?” Well, I said, “I can remember one wore a striped red and white sweater…” “Are they good looking?” Well I said, “I don‟t know, their names, and I don‟t know who their parents are, they‟re a gang that, that, gather themselves together, you know, and go in and out behind… well, there‟s a big barn over there, that‟s a good place to hide, behind a red barn, and then there‟s �13 a garage right next to me, back of this house if you ask them and they recruit, and then they come around.” Well, now that‟s what we‟re up against, that lawlessness, all the … broken out and they think they seem to have the right to be any where they want to, whether they want to play in the back yard or where… Interviewer: It wasn‟t like that when you were… Blake: Well, no. this was private property, and if, in fact we almost always had the fence around and mother had a fence with a gate that locked and she let in people she wanted her children to play with, and kept out those she didn‟t. But that was way back, of course when your home was your private property, your own affair, and now people think they have a right in anything. Well, that‟s Communism, why not pack them off to Russia and leave them there, it that‟s… but that seems to be a general feeling. And where it comes from… Interviewer: Could you a… Blake: But, it‟s to me a total reversal of what‟s right and what‟s wrong and what‟s decent and what isn‟t. But you see I‟m very old fashioned. It‟s, it‟s awfully hard to take different reasons for things. Interviewer: Yeah. Blake: What‟s back of it I don‟t know. Of course, the automobile began changing ways of life for instance an all-day picnic at, at Ada or Cascade with a horse and buggy, now it‟s about, doesn‟t take more than 30 minutes to drive, to drive an auto there, another 30 back. I think life began changing then, but it was still a delightful living in the early days of the automobile. But something has hit- is it war? Do you think war is back of what‟s the matter with us? We‟re always fighting somewhere. If it isn‟t Vietnam it‟s somewhere else. I don‟t know what‟s, what‟s the, but to me it, it‟s a, it‟s tragic. People, now this of course still part of the Heritage Hill district and the people here are just hoping that they can stay here; they‟re watching and just hoping that they can stay here. There are some lovely people across the street in one of the houses that was there when, when we, we moved up here, one of the two houses that was on the other side of the street, still there, sort of ice cream colored, the Magmoses[?] live there now. And they‟re hoping they can stay there, that the, that the gangs that come around won‟t, won‟t get over on their side. They don‟t know when it‟s going to run across the street… They say things aren‟t, you can‟t plan ahead or be confident that you can do things that you used to do now, don‟t know, what you‟re going to run up against. I don‟t know what‟s, I don‟t think anybody knows the answer. But it seems to me sort of a communistic movement … that‟s been very gradually and subtly pushed nearer and nearer to where we‟re living. Came from Detroit, here, and from where to Detroit I goodness knows. Detroit‟s had an awful time, hasn‟t it? Just fright[ful]… �14 INDEX A M Alliance Française Club · 8 Anthony, Susan B. · 5, 6 McKnight, Mrs. · 7, 8 B N Blake, Adeline Louise "Alde" Tuck (Mother) · 2, 3, 4, 6, 9, 13 Blake, William Frederick (Father) · 2, 3, 4 Blodgett, Mrs. John · 6 Brouwer Family · 2 National Women’s Suffrage organization · 7 R Reed’s Lake · 4, 11 C Central High School · 8, 9 Cody Hotel · 1 G Grand Rapids Equal Suffrage Club · 7 H Herpolsheimer’s · 3 S Shaw Family · 2 Shaw, Howard · 5 St. Cecilia's Music Society · 6, 7, 10 State Women’s Suffrage organization · 7 T Taft, President · 7, 8 U J Union High School · 8, 9 John Ball Park · 3, 11 Judson Grocery Company · 2, 3 W L Ladies Literary Club · 7, 8, 9, 10 Wealthy Avenue School · 2 Wishart, Dr. · 5, 6 Women's Suffrage · 5, 6, 8, 11 Worden Grocery Company · 3 Wurzburg’s · 3 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0ce366b50d4e3f9d5f743cb39c461566.mp3 abb684495a57d7b68391809aff37d961 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_14-15Blake Title A name given to the resource Blake, Dorothy Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Blake, Dorothy Description An account of the resource Miss Blake was a Radcliffe graduate and taught school at Union High School for 34 years. Miss Blake met both Woodrow Wilson and Howard Taft at the Lady's Literary Club. She also worked in the 1912 National campaign for women's suffrage movement. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8f0646e755247820180ac04841e324ac.pdf 60e3a5bb08e6b86ec548b2eea3dfe69d PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mrs. Siegel Judd (Dorothy Leonard) Interviewed on September 17, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #13 (1:05:11) Biographical Information Dorothy S. Leonard was born 14 September 1898 in Grand Rapids, Michigan, the daughter of Harry Carr Leonard and Willie Thomas Stansbury. She died 14 February 1989 at Porter Hills Presbyterian Village in Grand Rapids. Dorothy married Siegel Judd 29 June 1922 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Siegel was born Siegel Wright on 19 June 1895 in Kent County. He was the son of Addison Wright, the brother of Mrs. Lillian (Edward C.) Judd, who adopted and raised Siegel. Siegel died 4 September 1982. Mrs. Judd’s father was Harry Carr Leonard, born 25 December 1874 in Grand Rapids, the son of Charles H. and Emma (Carr) Leonard. Harry died 14 February 1956 at the age of 81. The mother of Mrs. Judd was Willie Thomas Stansbury, born in Delaware, Ohio, 18 August 1875 and she died in Grand Rapids on 21 March 1938. Their marriage took place in Lafayette, Indiana on 23 June 1897. ____________ Interview conducted with Mrs. Siegel W. Judd on September 17, 1971. Mrs. Judd: You asked me about the flavor of life in Grand Rapids when I was young, I think one of the predominant characteristics was the closeness of family life. My family really was not patriarchy, but a grand patriarchy, you might say, with my grandfather Leonard heading it up; and so, I’m going to want to tell you something about my grandfather so you’ll understand that family life. In the first place, he was always looking to the future. I never remember him talking about the past except when sometimes I asked him questions about it. He was always envisioning the needs of the community and the needs of business and industry, the new technologies, we’d call it today. I think they didn’t use that work; management systems, we’d call it today. But he was into these things and I think he’d be quite surprised to know that you young people wanted to know about the past. For example, really he was called in the refrigerator business the ―Granddaddy of the Refrigerator Business,‖ because he really was the inventor of the refrigerator, if you can say that anything as complicated was a single invention. But prior to that time, and this was along in the eighteen eighties there was no such thing as refrigeration. People had boxes, and they put ice in them; but, they didn’t have drainage, they weren’t cleanable, and only the people in the north who could get ice had refrigeration. In the south they couldn’t get ice, so they had to have other methods. I can remember my grandfather trying to sell the people in the south, on the idea of an icebox, as we called it in those days; and later on trying to sell the idea in South America and Europe. So it was pretty much in the northern part of the states that the idea of refrigeration got �2 going. I have his patents, oh, on hinges and locks and linings and drain pipes, and trays and all the things that go into a refrigerator. It was a seasonal business, too, because people only felt they needed it in the summertime. They always manufactured in the winter and piled them up in warehouses, ready to sell in the summertime. And of course, here in Grand Rapids the ice pretty much came from Reed’s Lake. I never think of Reed’s Lake as freezing so deep today, but where the East Grand Rapids Junior High School is, there was a great big wooden warehouse, storage house. The big drays, with great big horses, would go out on the ice and cut the ice, and put it in this storage house, and cover it with sawdust. That’s where our ice came for the iceboxes, in those early days. But, my grandfather wasn’t satisfied with an icebox. We have a scrapbook of his clippings that he cut out in the eighteen nineties with ideas about how to have what he called an ―iceless refrigerator,‖ and when I was a little girl, we were always experimenting on how to have a cold refrigerator without ice. I can remember one icebox where my father cut a big hole in the side of it down at the bottom and set an electric fan, with a wet flannel over it, in that hole to see if that wouldn’t be one way to get refrigeration. Another thing, one of his early interests, was the need for what he called pure water in Grand Rapids. Our water was so bad that people didn’t drink it; and if they did, they often died of typhoid fever. There was a big death rate from typhoid fever in Grand Rapids. Of course, the water we had was river water. My grandfather’s scrapbook has pictures in it of a barrel, I can remember, with sand in the bottom and gravel on the top experimenting filtering water through it to see if it wouldn’t purify the water. That’s back in the eighteen nineties. In nineteen four there was a World’s fair in St. Louis, and my grandfather went down there because St. Louis had a filtration plant. When he came back, he built an eight-foot model of it and persuaded the city government to set it up in the city hall so people could see what filtration could mean to Grand Rapids. Then, in nineteen seven, there was a campaign. I’ve forgotten whether it was to decide to build a plant or, I think it must have included the bond issue. I can show you, in a few minutes, my grandfather’s accounts of money he raised for that campaign for pure water. It was defeated: and I think it was defeated again around nineteen eleven. If you want to know more about pure water, John Martin also worked on this; and Mrs. Richard Meade can tell a lot about it. And of course, it wasn’t until nineteen seventeen that they finally built the plant and we began to have pure water. That seems very recent to me, maybe it doesn’t to you! But this made a tremendous reduction in the death rate of typhoid fever the very next year. That was another one of his forward-looking interests. Another example: That was my grandfather’s father who came to Grand Rapids originally, and I’d like to go back to that later, but I’d like to go on with some of these forward looking things of my grandfather’s. He was born on Monroe Street in a little frame house bordering now on what’s the McKay Tower, where the Houseman Clothing Store is now. It was a general store his father had on the first floor, and they lived on the second floor. After my grandfather grew up and began to be active in the business, they decided they should have a new building there. So, I don’t know the exact date, but sometime in the eighties I think it was, he built the brick building that stands there now, that. Houseman Clothing Store is in. Well, to do that, he had to rent a store across the street for his business. He was never a man to spend any more dollars than he had to, so he was in a great hurry to get the building done. At that time, the Edison Incandescent Lamp came out. He was the first one to use this in Grand Rapids. So, they went on with their construction at night, with the new Edison light. �3 Another new thing that he did, he was great on construction. He never had a college education; he wasn’t an engineer, but he was a great inventor. So, when in nineteen seven, they built the big plant on Clyde Park, which became the Kelvinator Plant after we sold it to Kelvinator. He built it of hollow cement blocks. Nobody had ever heard of building with hollow cement blocks. He mixed the cement mixture himself. And everybody said: ―Oh, Leonard’s building’s going to fall down for sure!‖ It was a great big building and they called it ―Leonard’s Elephant.‖ But, it’s still there and it’s been greatly enlarged by future owners of the plant. Then he had a great interest in educating youngsters and especially in developing skills. Now here today we’ve got these new skill centers about to open and we’re very excited about them; but along in nineteen four or five, my grandfather introduced manual training into the public schools; woodworking for boys, and sewing and cooking for girls. This was what you might call the beginning of occupational training for children. I have a clipping of a letter he wrote to the ―Public Pulse,‖ oh, maybe it was back in the teens, I’ve forgotten just when, recommending oneway streets. We had no one-way streets. In fact when I was on the city planning commission in the forties, we were beginning to recommend one-way streets, and it just raised Cain in the town. People would not have one-way streets! But, my grandfather said that this had to come, and he suggested it for what was then Commerce Street, which at that time went clear through to Monroe and created a lot of traffic problems with Commerce and Division so close coming into Monroe Street. He had the second automobile in Grand Rapids; it was a Knox, and it had three wheels. This is when they lived on Fulton Street in the John Ball House, which had great big stables down behind the house, where they had a beautiful carriage and a pair of white horses. Of course, they didn’t dare put the automobile there because they figured the automobile and the horses wouldn’t get along together very well. The house went downhill at the rear so that you could get into the basement from the ground, so the Knox was put in the basement. I can remember grandpa used to have an awful time getting up Fulton Street hill with the car. All the boys would line up and shout: ―Get a horse, mister‖. Then, of course, in the refrigerator business along came electrical refrigeration finally. It really developed during the war, the first war. And so we started selling the boxes to Frigidaire that made the motors. These were the first electric refrigerators. But my grandfather felt that the future of his business depended on his developing an electrical motor, and building the whole business. So, he bought land south of the Clyde Park plant to build a new plant to build motors. This was in nineteen twenty-four, about, and he was eighty years old. He was ready to build a new plant and experiment with a new product at that age. And of course, the poor old fellow; all his family said no. Nobody else in the family could do this, and grandpa was too old and really it just broke his heart. He just went downhill after that. Interviewer: Who said no? Mrs. Judd: The family, the rest of the family. Of course you must understand that industries in those days were family industries, they were not publicly owned. The whole family, including my father and my two sister’s families were all dependent on the refrigerator, and they all worked there and my cousins worked there, and my uncles, and my mother’s father. It was really a family affair. So, if it had gone into bankruptcy over this effort to build a new plant without the leadership of my grandfather, the whole family would have gone down the drain. So they had to say they couldn’t do it. This was the reason that they finally sold the plant to the Kelvinator �4 people, who were making electric refrigerator motors at that time, and who wanted to own a box factory. Frigidaire was part of General Motors and they built their own box factory. I would suggest you tape a conversation with my husband on this. The new Grand Rapids history is very inadequate and somewhat inaccurate on this thing of the refrigerator business here. My husband was the attorney in the sale, and he knows all about it. He was also attorney for many of the big furniture plants here, and he’d be a good one to talk to on the relationship of the whole furniture industry to life in Grand Rapids. It was very vital, the part that it had in family life and general living. Now let’s see. Shall we go back and talk about where the family came from? You’ve suggested this. My grandfather’s name was Charles H. Leonard and his father’s name was Heman. Heman came, his family originally - from New England and had lived a few years in Monroe County, New York state, near Rochester. Then old - oh dear! I forget Heman’s father’s name – anyway he had several sons and he said to them all, you must go west young man. And he offered each of them two hundred acres of land in Michigan if they would go and settle in Michigan. Some of them stopped around Detroit; and around Saginaw you’ll find Leonard families today. I don’t know them but I know that they’re there. Heman did what many people did who were moving west, when they came along the Erie Canal and Lake Erie and got to Detroit. Then they took, I suppose what was called, the old Territorial Road, which was practically I-ninety-four now, across southern part of the state, so that Jackson, Battle Creek, and Kalamazoo are all older communities than Grand Rapids: and then many of them came from the southern part of the state and moved up to Grand Rapids. And that was true of Heman Leonard. He lived a few years in Three Rivers and then came up here. The third wife he married, her family, her name was Mariah Winslow and her father was a doctor, and they lived near Kalamazoo. They came up here in eighteen thirty-five orseven. He was the first doctor, incidentally to perform any kind of service in the Grand Rapids area, and he came up on horseback from Kalamazoo to do it. Interviewer: And that was who? Winslow? Mrs. Judd: Dr. Winslow. The Baxter history tells about this. Evidently he liked Grand Rapids, so two years later he and his daughter Mariah came up here. You know, a lot of these hard working pioneers wore out several wives. Mariah was not the mother of my grandfather, but she was the stepmother who really brought up the two Leonard boys; Frank and Charles and Fred the three of them. So, she was a great influence in the family. She’s buried out in the Fulton Cemetery along with all the rest of the Leonards. In eighteen forty-two, she was the only woman on a committee of seven men who founded the First Baptist Church. It was really her influence that kept the Leonard family in what is now the Fountain Street Church all down through the years. I wish I knew more about her, she sounds like a wonderful person. Interviewer: Why did Heman Leonard remove from his farm to Grand Rapids? Mrs. Judd: Siegel and I were talking about that this morning. Why did people come to Grand Rapids, because it was offbeat from the normal transportation routes even in the pioneer days, just as it was in the development of railroads? It had railroads much later than Kalamazoo did. And still today in the airlines, we’re really offbeat. We don’t have the service that the lines from Detroit to Chicago get. But, I think Siegel would really be able to give you a better picture of this economically. The kind of people who came here from New England were not the fly-by-nights �5 that were just all the time going west to find something new. They were quite substantial businessmen in New England, and in New York state, and they became so when they came here. They came here with the idea of settling down, stabilizing; this had made this a stable community. And it was a center of trade for the lumber camps, and even for the copper country. It was the farthest north, settled community, and a lot of those really settled in Grand Rapids. Of course my grandfather’s (Oh, I’m skipping around now) as I told you, his father started a general store on Monroe Street, so he went on with this, my grandfather did when he grew up, and started in the wholesale business. There is a lot of wholesale business here, supplying stores all the way up and down Western Michigan. Grandpa told me that his first wholesale business was: he went down to Ohio, and he got a freight car full of kerosene lamps, and those clay pickle jars and… Interviewer: Crocks? Mrs. Judd: …took them up to the---crocks-, yes—and took them up to the lumber camps and that was the beginning of H. Leonard and Sons. Have you ever heard of that store? That store didn’t go out of business till in the nineteen fifties. It was one hundred eight years old when they finally---the family--- sold it to the men who so long had been running the store. Interviewer: What’s the name of the store now? Mrs. Judd: Well, it doesn’t exist anymore. The building is there, it’s on the corner of Fulton and Commerce, and Dykstra, [is] there a warehouse, I think. Interviewer: Oh yes, it’s a furniture… (Mrs. J. – I don’t know what ….) Mrs. Judd:. I don’t know what their business is or what’s in it, but on the front door you’ll still see the bronze plaque that says H. Leonard and Sons. H. Leonard was my great-grandfather, and his sons, my grandfather Charles and his brother Frank. Frank Leonard was the father of Mrs. Noyes Avery, Senior. Mrs. Judd: Let’s see, well just a word about the family-nature of the industry. As I said, all of us were in it, and were proud of it, used to take all our guests over to see it. It was very interesting because in those days a factory made every part of what they needed for a product. So that there was not only the woodworking in the days when there were wood refrigerators, but there was metal working. When they began to make porcelain linings they had the big furnaces that baked the porcelain. When they made trays that---you know, wire trays—that were tin covered, they did that process. They had a brass foundry that made hinges and the locks. So it was a very interesting place to go and to see. Also, there was a very close contact between my grandfather and all of the people who worked in the plant. He was always concerned when there was illness or trouble or the children needed some education. He’d go and call on them all and he knew them all. Then there was always the picnic, the annual picnic usually up at Bostwick Lake, and with all the workers and their families. There was a full day’s program of baseball and games. I remember watching my grandfather in the cigar smoking contest. He always could smoke that down to the pin faster than anybody else could. I told you that he was interested in what, today, we’d call management systems. He was the first person, I think, in the city to try to adopt some of the new ideas of efficiency in managing the plant. There was a Frenchman who was famous �6 for this; he was called an ―Efficiency Engineer,‖ named Charles Bedeaux. Have you ever come across that? Interviewer: No…… Mrs. Judd: It’s B E D E A U X, and he came and lived here all one winter and installed this efficiency system. He later married a Grand Rapids girl—this is just gossip on the side, I don’t know whether you want it or not--Interviewer: Who did he marry? Mrs. Judd: He married Fern Lombard, which was also an old family here, from Maine. They went back to France, and they became very wealthy, and they bought a beautiful big chateau, and when the Prince of Wales couldn’t find a place where he could marry—what’s the girl he married? Interviewer: The present Duchess…? Mrs. Judd: The American divorcee… Interviewer: Simpson, Mrs. Simpson. Mrs. Judd: Yes, Mrs. Simpson. They invited them to be married in their chateau. This is a story from the Lombards of Grand Rapids. Interviewer: Were they married there? Mrs. Judd: Yes. Bedeaux later became a Nazi in France and he was tried and, I think executed. I’m not sure about that; don’t put that down for a fact. About this time I came out of Vassar College, where I had majored in Economics and Political Science. I had taken some courses in labor management, so I came home to tell my grandfather how to run his labor problems. And you know he didn’t laugh at me, he took me seriously: and he took me out to the factory and he got out these great big charts of the organization of the factory, and talked to me just as though he were going to get ready to hire me for his personnel manager! I respected him very much for that, but this was the beginning of my interest in personnel work, which, of course, has pursued me clear down to the end of the state Civil Service Commission job a couple of years ago. In our family life, I think probably, like many families, my grandfather wanted to keep everybody close to him, and every Sunday we all went to their house for dinner. I can remember in the John Ball House there was a big dining room and a great big round table, and there were my father and each of his sisters and their families. In the end there were twelve grandchildren, but I don’t think we all sat around one table by that time. But it was just routine for everybody to go there for Sunday dinner. After a while my grandfather thought that—my grandmother, I should say--thought that that house was too big. There was too much work to be done in it, and I guess she, just to get away from Sunday dinners, anyways they sold the house without telling anybody. Oh my goodness, I can’t tell you how disappointed the family was because they loved that place. I can remember playing in the backyard. There was a big field back there then, between Gay Street and College. There was a cow in the field, and young Jo Brewer and I used to play house back �7 there; we’d cook and---. One of the games we played, all of us then, was an exchange of cigar bands. Did you ever hear of that; did you ever know that cigars had cigar bands? Interviewer: Oh, yes, I remember the cigar bands. Mrs. Judd: Oh, they were beautiful. You could get all kinds of great big gold seals on them, and everybody exchanged them. It was a great trading operation, and then you’d paste them on the bottom of a glass bowl. This was very decorative in the house. Well, anyway so they rented—no they bought a little house on Paris Avenue, about half way between Cherry and Wealthy. We were just squeezed in there; there just wasn’t room for anybody, and I guess it was worse for grandmother than having us all in the big house. So that’s when they built the house on Morris. You know that house on the corner of Morris and Logan? I guess, it’s one of the houses to be preserved in the Heritage Hill business, with the two story living room and the organ in it and the balcony over it. Here we had numerous weddings of the various cousins, and we had my grandmother’s funeral there. Grandpa used to bring professional organists who would come and stay for, say, a couple of weeks and have a series of organ concerts. This is where they had their golden wedding anniversary. Now, that was different from most golden wedding anniversary celebrations today. This was nineteen twenty-three. I think they were married in seventy-three. It was open house. They put it in the newspaper and everybody would be welcome. Of course, they had a host of friends and family, and then all the employees. They came with their families: it was really a wonderful affair. I can show you a few things I’ve put out there, one of which is a parchment that the employees gave to Grandma and Grandpa, at the time of their golden anniversary. They continued after they moved on Morris to develop houses for the family, all around them. At that time, straight through practically, on what’s now Prospect, used to be called Terrace Avenue, is where Frank Leonard lived, Grandpa’s brother, and their daughter [Evelyn Leonard] who became Mrs. Avery, and their son, Franklin. Across the street from them was one of Grandpa’s daughters [Jessie E. Leonard married Walter H. Whittier], the Whittier family. The Harvey family [Jennie M. Leonard married Frank A. Harvey] built a house I guess you designated for preservation on College Avenue between Wealthy and Logan. It’s a Spanish architecture. He had six daughters and they lived there. Then, as each of us grandchildren married, Grandpa gave us a house for a wedding present. Only three houses got built before Grandpa died, but one was on Morris. Oh, I forgot to mention that my father, my family, built kitty-cornered across from grandfather’s Morris Avenue house, on the south-east corner of Morris and Logan. That’s where I lived from the time I was fourteen. There was one of the grandchildren’s houses on Morris; one on College south of Logan; and then ours on Morris, right across the street between Logan and Wealthy. All these houses were together and the family Christmas dinners continued: and the family Thanksgiving dinners continued. There were always thirty-five or so of us for these dinners. Interviewer: Sounds like the Kennedy compound at Hyannis Port. Mrs. Judd: We weren’t the same political party, though. But, there was also a compound down at Highland Park. This isn’t Grand Rapids, but would you be interested in adding a bit about our life there? My grandparents bought a little cottage there in nineteen two. They’d been on Black Lake, but their cottage there burned down, so they bought this little cottage. Next to them was another cottage already built, so that was for the Whitter family; and then they built two more cottages on either side, for the Harvey family and for our family. The one they built for the �8 Harveys is still there, but there was a big fire in thirty-four that burned all the rest of these houses down. Next north of us was the McKee family who were also relatives. So there were five houses full of us. How the parents ever survived it, I’ll never know! But, you know, in those days you went down by interurban, which was an electric car. You went all the day down – you know that Highland Park was part of Grand Haven really, but we were just outside the city limits – and that went down the beach. There was a streetcar track, and the interurban came down to within about three hundred feet of our cottage, where there was what we called the loop. Every morning my father would get up at five o’clock, and they would catch this six o’clock ―Limited‖ they called it, that would take all the businessmen to Grand Rapids, - a two-hour trip. Every night he’d come back and we’d go down to the loop to meet our parents at seven o’clock. He did this every day because he said that the air down at Lake Michigan was something he just couldn’t miss for a single night. But when we’d go, we’d go for the season; we never dreamed of going back and forth. (End of side one) The trunks came down on the interurban and were loaded on great big trucks with big dray horses and were pulled down the beach. The men carried those trunks up maybe hundred steps and on up into our attic. The trunks didn’t come down again until the first day of school. By that time we were all packed up, and we’d put the blinds on the windows: and we moved to Grand Rapids and we never went back until the following July first. June was considered too cold a month to go down. You know? There were no roads, of course, behind those hills except farmers’ roads. The farmers would come with their vegetables and we youngsters used to go off with the farmer and see his farm. About everything had to be delivered down the beach. Even the ice for the refrigerators came down the beach. Can you imagine finding anybody today that would lug ice up those hundred steps on his back in the hot summer? The groceries came down [the beach too]. I remember one day, it was a very rough day, the boy delivering the groceries and his horse got thirsty. So he (the horse) just went out into the lake and the baskets all floated away. Another thing about our life there was the Fourth of July Celebration. My grandfather would bring down a whole trunk full of fireworks and it would be on the porch of his cottage. We could all go and help ourselves to firecrackers and…. Interviewer: Roman candles? Mrs. Judd: No, no that was at night, the adults ran those. But during the day there were all sorts of things, and once in a while a thumb nail would be blown off and somebody would have to be taken care of. Then at night the adults put on the show with the big fireworks down on the beach. That was a great family affair. Then, of course, my dad had to go to Chicago on business quite often, you know, in those days the customers of the refrigerator factory and the furniture factories, too, were the big department stores all over the country. So, we often had business in Chicago. The Goodrich boat line was running boats between Muskegon and Grand Haven and Milwaukee and Chicago. When dad would go, he’d go on the night boat and we’d all go up to Grand Haven to see him off. Then we’d come down to where the State Park is now. There was a little cement-block building that was the wireless station, which communicated with the boats without any wires. Then we’d go in and we’d send dad a message on the wireless. I suppose this was what preceded the radio. I don’t know how it really worked. �9 Now, let me see, I think I should tell you a little bit about the Carrs, because they’re not too far off from your Heritage Hill business. My grandfather married Emma Carr. They came from New Hampshire. He was a colonel in the Civil War. I had his sword, with Gettysburg and all the battles engraved on it. He went into the lumber business here, in about – well, they came West first in the fifties and grandmother was born in Illinois, and then the war came they went back to New Hampshire, because he was in the New Hampshire militia. I had his book on the practice rules for the New Hampshire militia; I sent it back to the New Hampshire museum. He built a house on the corner of Lyon and Bostwick, where it’s just been torn down for that new Junior College building that’s now about finished, I guess. It was a little New England farm house type of house; you know, in New England, often the oldest son, when he was married, or the oldest daughter would live in the same house with their parents, which was built as a sort of a double house, except for the kitchen. The kitchen would go clear across the back; it would be a common kitchen for both families. Well that’s what that house was like. I can remember, as a child, the family had long left it, but I can remember it as being really a colonial type of house. After that its architecture was ruined by being covered with shingles, with - - what is that stuff they use, it looks like shingles. Interviewer: I know what you mean, I call it funny brick. Mrs. Judd: Yes, and a little store was added to it, Perry’s Interviewer: Yes, or something. Mrs. Judd: Still, it was no longer an attractive house, but this was the house where my grandfather and Emma Carr were married and where my own father was born. My father was Harry Carr Leonard. You know, they first named him Noel Winslow Leonard, Winslow after Mariah, the stepmother and Noel, because he was born on Christmas. For the first two years, they called the little baby Winnie, and finally Mariah said, ―Emma, you cannot bring up a boy called Winnie, you have to change his name.‖ So, they changed it to Harry Carr Leonard. When he went to get a passport, he wasn’t registered anywhere in the state at all. Let me see, my father went to Purdue University because Grandma and Grandpa thought the University of Michigan was too tough a place to send their sixteen year old boy. Interviewer: He was sixteen when he went to college? Mrs. Judd: He was sixteen because, apparently, it wasn’t necessary to go four years to high school; he could get into the university with three years. But, my grandmother was very worried about her little boy, so she took him down to Lafayette, Indiana, and took him to the Baptist minister’s family and asked them to take care of him. The daughter of the family was my mother, and she went to Purdue University. She was one of fifty coeds in a school of about a thousand boys. Needless to say, she had a wonderful time. But when they were married, of course, they came back to Grand Rapids, because my father went into the refrigerator factory. I want to say a word about my mother, if I may; because she was I suppose one of the most loved women in all of Grand Rapids. She was very active in community affairs. She was a charter member of the Women’s University Club, which later became a branch of the American Association of University Women. She was always busy with the Visiting Nurses, which became Community Nursing. I think it’s called now. She was one of three that helped organize the first union of all �10 the social agencies for a single budget job, what we now call the United Fund, and used to be called Community… Interviewer: Community Chest? Mrs. Judd: Community Chest. But, when they started, it Ben Merrick was one of the three and I’ve forgotten the third. This was during the World War when it was so necessary to be more efficient about raising money for these needs. Ben Merrick and Mother called it the Welfare Union at that time. That was a very difficult job. I can remember Mother oh, being so depressed over the controversies and conflicts and jealousies among all the different agencies; each leader wanted their own, you know. Interviewer: I don’t think it’s much different today really. Mrs. Judd: No, well, it was quite an achievement and then, of course, she was very active in Fountain Street church, as all of the family were. I think it’s the sixth or seventh generation now in the Fountain Street Church. The Leonards were always extremely active in it. My Uncle Frank Leonard, Mrs. [Noyes] Avery’s father, was chairman of the Board of Trustees for, oh I don’t know about twenty years or more. When he died my grandfather succeeded him. So, there was a period of forty or fifty years when these men took the leadership in the church; and of course mother was a great supporter of Dad when he was doing that. I can remember in the old church, you know, that burned down in nineteen sixteen or seventeen, the same corner where the church is now – every Thanksgiving, the night before Thanksgiving, we had a big church dinner. I don’t know how the women ever got through. They did all the cooking, the members of the church; we didn’t have any professional cooks in those days. They cooked that great big dinner on Wednesday and had their own family dinners on Thursday. My father always carved all the turkeys for the gang, and his way of carving turkey was neat, and he became quite famous for this. Dad ran down after the furniture factory was sold and went into the public life and became a member of the city commission, you know, he was on it for eight years, and there was a lot of controversy. Let me see, I should tell you something about me? I was born on John Street; that was in a house that my grandfather bought for my father and his wife when they were married. That’s where I was born. Of course, nobody was born in a hospital in those days; they were always born at home. That house has just been torn down in the past year or two. There were twin houses, and there was just a driveway between us and the one to the east of us bordered on the Immen House, which has recently been bought by those architects, up there on the corner: that big white house on the corner of Lafayette and John. The house to the south of us, when I was young, was occupied part of the time by the Charles Garfield family; you know the man who gave his farm for the Garfield park. He was one of Grand Rapids finest man. I don’t know of any leader in the history of Grand Rapids that I can think of who was a finer man than that. His wife was the maid of honor in Grandma and Grandpa’s wedding. John Street was a great place for coasting. You could go up to the top of the hill and, of course, there was very little traffic and you could coast down the hill and cross Barclay Street, down thru an alley next to the St. Cecilia until you got to, what is that street called? Interviewer: Ransom? �11 Mrs. Judd: Let me see. Yes, Ransom. Near the park. Interviewer: That’s quite a ride. Mrs. Judd: That’s quite a ride, yes. One of the stories my mother used to tell was how on my way up to Fountain Street School, I would draw my little sister up on a sled up to the top of the hill and then just give her a shove, and I’d go on to school. She was really rather small to make that trip all by herself. Then, of course, the groceries were delivered in the wintertime in sleighs, because there was always snow on the streets. So, one of our fun things to do was to stand on the sleds of the grocery sleigh, and go all over town with the grocery boy. If you can imagine letting a youngster of that age do it now! I was sent down to the grocery store often by myself when I was four and five years old. It was located where Rood’s China Store is now. I had to cross Fulton street and Jefferson. There were no lights; there were no automobiles; it was a very safe thing to do. We had a big garden back of us and we had three great big apple trees. We always picked the apples and spread them out on the floor in the attic, put newspapers over them, and then we had apples all winter long. We had, in the basement, big potato bins; we’d buy our potatoes in season and use them all winter there. Then we had tremendous big closets in the basement for canned goods and, of course, there was a big job in the fall doing all the canning. The furnace was a coal burning furnace, and I can remember my father getting up in his white night shirt at five o’clock on an icy morning, going downstairs and starting the fire to keep the rest of us warm. We had gas lights, and the mantles. You know what a mantle is? A gas mantle? They were always burning out or breaking – making trouble. I went to the Fountain Street School. This was the building that my father had gone to school in. I can remember once a boy threw a snowball at the wall and you could see the crack from the inside. It was getting that old. That was where the Central High School is now. We had a great big playground – they owned as much land as they do now for Central – and it was all in tall grass and big trees. We played games around the stumps. At the back of the lot there was an old rickety barn, where there were horses, and we’d feed the horses, for fun, during our recess. Then, finally, the Board of Education decided to build a high school there. I was in the fifth grade then. The first thing they did was to build a gymnasium. That was the end of our playground. Then they put the elementary school into the gymnasium and built the classrooms there. So, I had my sixth grade in the gym. For the seventh and eighth grade we went to Central Grammar, which was the old high school, older than the one they’re about to tear down now, which I guess you mostly remember as Strong Junior High. Interviewer: Which building would that be, the one on Barclay? Between Barclay and Ransom? Mrs. Judd: It was on, well this is Central Grammar I’m talking about was on the corner of Barclay and Lyon. It’s vacant land now. Interviewer: Oh, just adjacent to what is the East Building of J.C. Mrs. Judd: That’s right, there was no East building then. It was the old High School. Preliminary to that building was the Stone Building, that’s where my grandmother and grandfather went to high school back in the eighties. This Central Grammar was also a very old building. The principal was Mrs. Goss. I guess I should mention the fact that when school started, or when school was out, the pupils all lined up from their room to march downstairs and out; and in the �12 morning nobody could come into the building until they all lined up and marched into the building. Mrs. Goss would not let us march in rhythm because she said if we got too much rhythm going the building would fall down. I was in the first class to enter the new Central High School as a freshman in nineteen twelve. My grandfather Leonard was a member of the Board of Education; you’ll find his name up there on the plaque, when the building was built. That was a wonderful experience, that high school experience. We had marvelous teachers in those days. They went on, most of them, to become teachers in the Junior College. We had a lunchroom, and we had all our parties in the lunchroom. Of course, the floor was very rough. When a club had a party there, they’d go up Saturday morning and put cornmeal all over the floor and slide all morning long to get the floor so it was good enough to dance on. By this time I was living down on Logan and Morris. There were the most whole lot of wonderful young people who lived up and down Madison. We called it the Madison Avenue crowd. The first one lived near Franklin Street, and then we always walked to school; of course nobody ever dreamed of having to be driven to school. We’d gradually pick up one person after another all the way up Madison until we got to about Washington. And that was the Madison Avenue crowd. Our parties were always in people’s homes. We didn’t have clubs to go to, we did, but it wasn’t the place for young people. Many of the homes had ballrooms, and player pianos for our music, and we had a wonderful time. At Christmas time there were engraved invitations for every single night of the Christmas vacation; come to somebody’s house for a dance. Let’s see. There was a house I wanted to mention next to Central High School. I think of all the houses you people are preserving, this one would have been the most wonderful one to have had. It belonged to the Baars. It was set back in a great big yard with lots of trees. It was a little frame Gothic house with all the lace and pointed roofs. It was really darling place. It’s too bad that it disappeared. Interviewer: I wonder if I could ask you a question right now. You mentioned that your husband lived on the West side of Grand Rapids, and you lived on the East side of Grand Rapids, and your family, obviously, a very substantial family. How did you and your husband meet? Mrs. Judd: Union High school was only three year high school and all of their students had to come to Central for their senior year. Now you must know that some of Grand Rapids most prominent families lived on the West side in those days, the Tuttles, and the Baldwins. Oh, Siegel can tell you a large number of them. When he was a senior his family moved over here to be closer to the school, and that’s where I met him – was in high school. He went to Dartmouth and I went to Vassar; and then he went on to the First World War. He was in Dartmouth in the war, and he enlisted in the Navy and went on to Annapolis and got his commission in the regular Navy from Annapolis training, then came back here and went to law school. In those days, nobody married until they were able to support a wife, and so I had to wait about two years for him to finish law school and get a job before he would marry. This was pretty tough. I finally got a job myself. I taught at Central High. Oh, I wanted to mention this thing about Central High School, too. I taught there for four years, from nineteen twenty-one to twenty-five. During that time, of course, when I was in high school they played football out here at Ramona. But during that time that I taught, the board bought Houseman Field. It was very wet, and there was no money to drain it, so the students decided to do it. The boys were organized, of course they had the engineering guidance, but they were organized to dig the trenches back and forth across the field and lay the tile, and fill it in. this was all done in one Saturday. The girls organized to get the lunch and bring it and serve it. I organized the girls for this so every time I drive by Houseman Field, I have a sense of pride about Houseman Field. There was something else about �13 high school. Ramona meant a great deal to us. It’s not in your Heritage Hill district, but it was a great amusement park. The route out there was through the woods. You see, it was way out of town. It belonged to the streetcar company; of course, we helped them make that business. They had summer cars that didn’t have any walls on the sides and the seats went clear across and the conductor collected the fares (of course they had both the motor man and the conductor) by walking along that step along the edge it. On a hot summer day, before we had the cottage, mother would take us and we’d get on that streetcar, and we’d ride out to Ramona. Then we’d stay on it and it would go back downtown and ride out to North Park. We would get some ice cream there and then come home; that was our summer outing. The outdoor theatre at Ramona had the best Keith Vaudeville that there was in the country. It was just a dandy place to go for the summer evenings. Then there was the O-Wash-Ta-Nong Club. Did you ever hear of that? Oh, that was a beautiful clubhouse, built right over the edge of the water. It was a three-storied building with a beautiful ballroom that looked out over the water, and a balcony, and underneath it were the canoes. You could go there and have a canoe ride or you could have a beautiful dance. During the war I can remember many dances out there for the boys in uniform. It was a lovely place, it burned down. Mr. Hanchett – did you ever hear of the Philipine band? Mr. Hanchett was the head of the streetcar company. His house is one of your houses for preservation, on College, the red stone house just north of Cherry Street. Interviewer: Right next to the Voigt house, isn’t it? Mrs. Judd: Yes, just to the south of the Voigt house. He brought a Filipino band to Grand Rapids and it stayed about a year, I think. He would put them on his streetcar that would go out to Ramona. They would be playing out there, you see. This attracted a great deal of business to Ramona. Then later the Hanchetts moved and bought the house where the Bissells live now, across from the hospital on the corner of Wealthy and Plymouth. They built a big ballroom on the back of it, and there were many dances there with the Filipino Band. We had a very happy life as young people. We used to have to have chaperones in the automobiles that drove us to the party, but I don’t think that really hampered us very much. Interviewer: I’d like to ask you a question right now; it’s a question I asked everybody that grew up during that period of time. What do you think Mrs. Judd, thinking back, what was it that ended that era? Mrs. Judd: Oh, I think the automobile more than anything else. In the first place, it ruined the streetcar business, and the interurban business. My father was on the city commission and the one who insisted that the streetcar tracks be removed from Monroe Street and the street be repaved clear across so it would be good pavement. Many cities simply paved on either side and left the streetcar tracks. Now, that was nineteen thirty -(?) it was during the depression, I guess it was one way of giving more employment-thirty-four or thirty-five along on there. Interviewer: You’d say it was the automobile more than anything. Mrs. Judd: Oh, I think so. It made life go faster, it made people get off their feet and sit on their fannies, [and] this I think, prevented lot of camaraderie that we used to have as a group when we went back and forth to school, to say nothing of what it did to our physiques. Well, I suppose the movies really destroyed the amusement park, although it wore out. The roller coaster was going �14 to kill somebody if they didn’t take it down. Maybe people just got too sophisticated for that kind of amusement. It did kill the vaudeville circuit. The first movie I ever went to was on Monroe Street, just about where Goebel and Brown’s store is now. It was called the Monroe Vaudette. It was five cents and there was an organ; and that’s where I saw Mary Pickford and Charlie Chaplin, but never with my mother’s permission. Oh, she didn’t believe in it; I had to sneak in and not tell her. But Grand Rapids was a city that had the best Broadway theatre in those days. I saw all the leading Shakespearean actors. All the operettas came. You talk to Siegel about operetta; he was crazy about operetta and music, of course. He used to go to all of them and sit in the top gallery, which they called then something I won’t mention. Maude Adams, Billie Burke, all the people right off the Broadway companies stopped here. Now, the reason, I think, was the furniture industry and the markets. I’m going to leave that for Siegel to tell you because he can make a very interesting story about it. Interviewer: Well, I think we’ve covered everything that I wanted to cover, and you certainly were well prepared. Mrs. Judd: Well, I tell you, I’ve been in the process of trying to write a story about my grandfather, for the family. There’s a lot of research necessary, the kind of research I wish you people had done on the Heritage House houses. I know where the buildings were that my grandfather built, so to find out when they were built and what became of them afterwards, I started out in the city hall in the Assessor’s office, where you have to look up things by address. I got the history of assessment of that particular property; you can sometimes tell by the, say, quick jump in the assessment that’s there’s been a new building or something put there. Then, to find out who the owners were, you take the numbers off the assessment that each property has and then you go over to Michigan Trust Building, where the abstract company is. With that number they will give you the abstract from the beginning. The first properties that my grandfather built on were in the village of Grand Rapids – or village of Kent, I’ve forgotten, I mean it dates back that far – and then you can pursue the ownership of that piece of property that way. I don’t know whether you know I was on that little committee that went over all the history of the houses to determine which ones were historically worth preserving. I noticed that one was listed as the Wagemaker house on Lyon Street. Now, that really is the Idema house. If you want the history of that house, you could go to Chester Idema or Walter Idema. Interviewer: He’s one of the fellows that I’m going to be interviewing next week. Mrs. Judd: Is he? Well, you get him. I asked him about it quite recently because I was perturbed that the name of it was Wagemaker, when really the Idemas, you know were the heads of the bank and one of the biggest families. Their house on the corner of College and Washington, north of the Voigts, was the later house. But that’s something that really ought to go in your Heritage Hill area. Interviewer: OK. �15 INDEX A Avery, Mrs. Noyes · 6, 8, 11 B Baldwin Family · 13 Bedeaux, Charles · 6, 7 Bedeaux, Fern Lombard · 6 C Central Grammar School · 12, 13 Central High School · 12, 13, 14 Community Chest · 11 D Dartmouth · 13 F Fountain Street Church · 5, 11 Frigidaire · 3, 4 G Goss, Mrs. · 13 H H. Leonard and Sons · 5, 6 Hanchett, Mr. · 14 Harvey Family · 8 Leonard, Emma Carr (Grandmother) · 7, 8, 9, 10, 13 Leonard, Harry Carr (Father) · 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 15 Leonard, Heman (Great-Grandfather) · 4, 5 Leonard, Mariah Winslow · 4 Leonard, Willie Thomas Stansbury (Mother) · 1, 4, 5, 10, 11, 12, 14, 15 M Martin, John · 2 McKee Family · 8 Meade, Richard Mrs. · 2 O O-Wash-Ta-Nong Club · 14 P Purdue University · 10 R Ramona Park · 14 Reed’s Lake · 2 S Simpson, Mrs. · 7 T Tuttle Family · 13 U I University of Michigan · 10 Idema Family · 16 V J Judd, Siegel (Husband) · 1, 5, 13, 15 Vassar College · 7 Visiting Nurses · 10 K W Kelvinator · 3, 4 L Leonard, Charles H. (Grandfather) · 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 13, 15 Wagemaker Family · 15, 16 Whittier Family · 8 Women’s University Club · 10 �16 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/44402fc843dc870171fd2f87949c3eee.mp3 6a77bde69b7f8311662638b93752a15a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_13Judd Title A name given to the resource Judd, Dorothy Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Judd, Dorothy Description An account of the resource Dorothy Leonard was born in 1898 in Grand Rapids. She studied economics and political science at Vassar College and had an interest in city government. Her grandfather, Charles H. Leonard, was the inventor of the refrigerator. Mrs. Judd was the keeper of her grandfather's patents. She married Siegel Judd in 1922. She died in 1989. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/678291c7b699fc81fda5a8b114937cc1.pdf 65e851c87d0ed04cafcd008eb32a0de6 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collection Kent County Oral History Project RHC-23 Mrs. George Whinery (Katherine M. Pantlind) Interviewed on September 16, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape 12 (23:50) Biographical Information: Mrs. Whinery was Katherine M. Pantlind, born 28 January 1910 in Kent County, daughter of Frederick Z. Pantlind and Hilda W. Hummer. Katherine was married in 1931 to George A. Whinery, Sr. She died 29 December 1998 and is buried in the Pantlind family plot at Oak Hill Cemetery. George A. Whinery was born 11 January 1902 in Grand Rapids, the son of Joseph B. and Fannie Whinery. He died 9 July 1992 in Grand Rapids at the age of 90. Katherine‟s father, Frederick Zachary Pantlind was born 26 July 1886 in Grand Rapids, the son of J. Boyd and Jessie L. (Aldrich) Pantlind. He married Hilda W. Hummer in 1906. Frederick died 15 November 1929 in Grand Rapids. Hilda, born 22 January 1886 in Holland, Michigan, the daughter of George P. and Margaret (Plugger) Hummer. After Frederick‟s death, Hilda married as her second husband, Mr. A. Chester Benson about 1932 and she died 31 July 1964. ___________ Interviewer: Mrs. Whinery, you‟re involved in the Shakespeariana Club and as I understand it, that club has had a long history in Grand Rapids. Could you tell me something about the history of the club, the background? Mrs. Whinery: Well, it was founded way back in April twenty third, eighteen eighty-seven, by a group of ladies interested in the study of Shakespeare, and it was founded by Loraine Pratt Immen and it has been meeting ever since eighteen eighty-seven, yes. Two, twice a month, the second and fourth Wednesdays, and we‟d study two books a year, a history in the fall, and a comedy in the spring. For quite a few years, a group of us have gone up to the Shakespeare Festival in Stratford, Ontario every summer to see the Shakespeare plays, which is most enjoyable. Turn it off Bob; I‟m nervous as a wet hen. Interviewer: Ok, perhaps…. Mrs. Whinery: A paper is written at each meeting by our members and at the Grand Rapids Public Library on the second floor, outside of the Michigan Room, there is a very handsome carved Shakespearean chest which was given in memory of one of our members. In that the papers are put, the good papers, the well-written papers; and that is our Shakespeare corner. There is a carved wooden hanging, piece above it where Shakespeariana momentums, have been put and that is the Shakespeare corner at the library. �2 Interviewer: The club‟s been in existence since eighteen eighty-seven. Why was the club formed, do you think? Mrs. Whinery: Well, because women are interested in Shakespeare. He‟s been with us for over four hundred years and he grows. Interviewer: Are clubs like this being formed today though? Mrs. Whinery: Well, there is a Shakespeare group connected with the Ladies Literary Club, that is think is still in existence, it isn‟t as old as Shakespeariana, but they have the same purpose, I‟m sure. Interviewer: Well, the thing I‟m getting at is that I saw, this kind of society bluebook that was put out for Grand Rapids. I don‟t know if you‟ve ever seen one, but it was put out around the turn of the century sometime, or maybe even in the eighteen nineties. It listed in there, clubs and organizations and I think, Miss [Josephine] Bender told me there were like seven or eight still in existence, that there was a list of about twenty; and it seems during that period of time, in the history of Grand Rapids, up to some unknown date, people organized clubs, they got involved in clubs. And it was a real tool of keeping people together, interacting. Mrs. Whinery: Well, this is the day of wheels and I think everyone‟s busy going places, instead of staying home and studying and reading and learning, I really do, I think everyone‟s on the go. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Whinery: And we used to do so much more in our homes, we had, these are after we read and study and have our papers we have tea; that makes for a very nice social hour. But I just don‟t think, I think people play bridge today and as I say, go Interviewer: Has, in this club in particular, has the membership been increasing or decreasing? Mrs. Whinery: It stays the just about the same, you have to be invited to be a member, you have to be interested in Shakespeare and willing to write a paper every other year, we have about forty members and we keep it that size if it got any larger we couldn„t meet in the homes. Interviewer: Yes. Where did you grow up as a child? Mrs. Whinery: Oh, in Grand Rapids Interviewer: Where abouts in Grand Rapids? Mrs. Whinery: Well, down on Lafayette as a child; I lived on the corner of Lafayette and Wealthy and then I lived on Washington Street for a good many years, and then I lived with my grandmother on College. Interviewer: Yes, what was the, what was it like living down there? �3 Mrs. Whinery: Oh, it was great, that Washington Avenue gang, there were, by actual count, fifty some within that block and we had such good times. A lot of them are still my dearest friends, the ones I grew up with. That‟s what‟s nice about living in a city the size of Grand Rapids, because you keep your old friends; they‟re your best friends. Interviewer: Yes, was there a good deal of interaction not only among the children but among the adults, the parents? Mrs. Whinery: Oh, yes, they all were friends and went together, and had their dinner parties. Everyone had their swings and their playgrounds in the backyard, they didn‟t have the school playgrounds that we have today and we had, I know Mary Lockwood had a great big playhouse that her father, who‟s in the lumber business had built for her in the backyard and we just had the best times together. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Whinery: Sliding down Mrs. Waters‟ hill and sliding down Washington Street and we had a pony and a pony cart, and the Peck girls had a pony and a pony cart and we all lived on Washington Street. Interviewer: Where did everybody keep their ponies, their animals? Mrs. Whinery: Well, Grandpa had a farm, a gentleman farm, there were Dudley Waters and Ben Hanchett and John Martin and my grandfather, J. Boyd Pantlind all had gentlemen farms; show farms. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Whinery: And, we used to have a great time out there. Interviewer: Where was your grandfather‟s farm? Mrs. Whinery: It‟s now, grandmother, after grandfather died, grandmother sold it to the city and its now Woodlawn Cemetery on Kalamazoo. He had three or four hundred acres on both sides of Kalamazoo Avenue and the Catholic cemetery is on one side and the Protestant cemetery is on the other. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Whinery: They just tore the little white house where the caretaker, the manager of the farm lived, and for a long time that was the cemetery office, but they tore it down a few years ago and built a modern brick building on the east side of Kalamazoo now for the offices. Interviewer: Your grandfather, did he run the Morton House or the Pantlind Hotel? �4 Mrs. Whinery: Both, he had the Morton first and then he bought the old Sweets Hotel, which he renamed the Pantlind Hotel and then that was torn down and he built the Pantlind Hotel. Interviewer: Yes. When was that? When was the Pantlind built? Mrs. Whinery: About nineteen seventeen, I would say, but I couldn‟t be too sure. Interviewer: Yes, I heard that your grandfather, what kind of guy was he? Mrs. Whinery: Oh, he was jolliest, kindest, most fun person in the world; he was not very tall, kind of round, immaculate dresser, and he was Scotch and he had a marvelous sense of humor. He could tell a story in every dialect and he just was naturally funny. And everybody loved him, he was known throughout the country. Interviewer: I heard that when the Powers‟ Theatre was going, and they used to bring a lot of the shows to Grand Rapids and so on that your grandfather was one of the ones chiefly responsible for it, only because the actors loved to come and stay at the Pantlind . Mrs. Whinery: I think they probably did. Grandmother had the greatest collection of signed autographed pictures of all the old actors and actresses, musicians and famous people that came and stayed with grandfather at the hotel and she gave that collection to the Civic Theatre, but it has long since disappeared. Interviewer: It has disappeared? Mrs. Whinery: …..any idea of where it is. Interviewer: No? Mrs. Whinery: Today, the Civic Theatre has made so many moves. Interviewer: Where was the Civic Theatre originally? How long has the Civic Theatre been in existence? Mrs. Whinery: Well, I can remember it when it was in an old building over on, over on of course, it‟s back on the West side now, but this was near the river, it had an old pot bellied stove. You should ask Josephine Bender about this because she‟s the authority on the Civic Theatre. I‟m hoping that before too long it will have a fitting permanent home. Interviewer: Is that the one they‟re talking about on the river? Mrs. Whinery: Yes, I hope so. Interviewer: Yes. �5 Mrs. Whinery: Going to take lots of money that‟s always the difficulty, but, I hope it will come, it should come. Interviewer: Was your family members of Kent Country Club? Mrs. Whinery: Yes and that‟s one of the stories that Katherine Lockwood wanted to tell you because she was a little girl on her white pony Rose when she and Grandfather Pantlind and, I‟ve forgotten what, it was Mr. Lowe or Mr. Blodgett and two or three other men were looking for a new location for Kent Country Club; and they all rode all out in the north end where country, where Kent is now located, looking at that area for a country club. And that‟s one of the stories she wanted to tell you. Interviewer: I never knew that Kent originally was located right down on the corner… Mrs. Whinery: Right here, my house is sitting on the one of the, oh what… Interviewer: Greens? Mrs. Whinery: Greens, yes a creek ran right through here and this was.... Interviewer: Yes Mrs. Whinery: But Grandfather was one of the founders of Kent at least where it is now, I don‟t know how far back that goes either. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Whinery: But a long, long time… Interviewer: Are you a member of the Ladies Literary Club? Mrs. Whinery: No, Bob, I‟ve never been. Interviewer: How about the Women‟s City Club? Mrs. Whinery: Yes, I‟m a member of the Women‟s City Club. Interviewer: How long has that been around? Mrs. Whinery: Been on the board, well. (Turn it off!) Interviewer: Ok. Could you tell me the story you were just telling me where your family‟s homestead was? Mrs. Whinery: Well, my great, great grandfather William B. Ledyard lived in a charming white house that was torn down, on the corner of Cherry and Union. In fact, his property ran from College to Union along Cherry, and half a block back. That house was torn down to build the �6 Oakwood Manor Apartments. Their daughter Euphrasia Ledyard married Moses. B. Aldrich, an early mayor in Grand Rapids. They gave them their side yard, which was on the corner of Cherry and College to build a home; they built a large brick residence with a large brick barn. People thought they were crazy to build a townhouse in the country, as they said at that time, and from the cupola on the top you could see Grand River and all of the valley. Their daughter, Jessie Aldrich married James Boyd Pantlind. They were my grandparents and they were given the side yard to build their home on. I lived with my Grandmother for a good many years, and maintained the home after her death. My children were the sixth generation to live on that one piece of property, which belonged to my great, great grandfather William B. Ledyard. Interviewer: Where, now you have a piece of property, and the family begins there and as the children grow and marry, they build houses on the property until finally you have six generations of family living on the same plot of ground. Why do you think, I mean, what has happened? In some of the interviews that I‟ve had people talk about family and how closely knit their families were. Now why isn‟t that, why isn‟t it that way today? Do you think? What‟s changed? What happened? Mrs. Whinery: Well, I lay it all to wheels again, I think everybody is on the go; they don‟t want to stay home. Every kid wants to get their hands on the wheel of a car and take off; and I don‟t know, I loved my grandmother and had had great respect and admiration for her. I was close to my father and my mother and I just don‟t know why it is, although my children are satisfactory. They, I hope love and respect me. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Whinery: I‟ve never had any trouble with my children; they‟ve given me nothing but joy and happiness. We haven‟t had that problem, Bob. Interviewer: You‟re very lucky that… Mrs. Whinery: I know I‟m lucky. Interviewer: That‟s, that‟s I know I‟ve asked this question of everybody, what it was that they think changed, ended that era? Mrs. Whinery: Well, I think it‟s too much permissiveness, I‟ve, I‟ve, my mother was strict with us…. I think you get out of your children just what you expect from them, and what you put into them. Interviewer: Yes, was the, do you think that when you were a child growing up, do you think there was a society, a definite society in Grand Rapids? Mrs. Whinery: Oh yes, there was, certainly there was a society. Interviewer: What was it based on, do you think? Entrance into that society? �7 Mrs. Whinery: Well….. Interviewer: And is it different from than the day? Mrs. Whinery: Oh, there isn‟t any society today. Interviewer: Why not? Mrs. Whinery: Well, it‟s just wanting to bring everybody down to the same level, I suppose. Don‟t get me started on this subject because I feel very strongly about it. I don‟t think things are improving at all. When I was a little girl we were satisfied with so little, we played with our animals and our pets, and I used to catch pollywogs, and frogs and snakes and I‟ve, I just, we didn‟t have to be entertained every single minute. Seems to me my grandchildren are glued before the boob tube all the time, or they want to be taken to the pool to swim or they want to go to see a movie, or they want this, or they want that; I don‟t remember that we required entertaining every single minute. I used to read all the time. I don‟t think children read the way we used to. I gave my Little Colonel storybooks, which I loved as a child to my granddaughter the other day and I don‟t think she‟s looked at them. Interviewer: Yes. What was society based on in those days, entrance into society? Was it just money? Mrs. Whinery: No. I think it was the same interests, the same educational background, your neighborhood you lived in; I wasn‟t conscious of one person having more money than the other. They used to do a lot of calling on one another and people had ballrooms on their third floor. Grandmother had a ballroom and they used to have their parties up there and it, I just think everyone had more fun and in a more wholesome way then they have today. They didn‟t feel they had to have their cocktail parties and… Interviewer: Was there liquor served at their parties? Mrs. Whinery: Well, of course I grew up in the prohibition era, and we didn‟t serve liquor at our house; and I know the Whinerys didn‟t. Interviewer: Yes. If you had to set a date or a particular event as perhaps being a thing that began the demise of that era, and that style of living, what would it be? Mrs. Whinery: Well, I think it‟s been since the Depression. Interviewer: Did the Depression affect your family? Mrs. Whinery: Well, I can remember doing with very little when George and I were first married. We were married in nineteen thirty-one and I had a very small budget to get along on. We had one car and we kept it a good long time. I can remember going along and looking down and being able to see right through the floorboard at the road underneath. And you know, I think �8 maybe it was all for the best. I think young people today, things are too easy, it never occurred to George and me with four children that we could get a divorce and that he could afford to get married again and keep another family. We were married, we had responsibilities and we had to get along. And now it‟s just so easy…if you don‟t feel like getting along, go ahead, get a divorce. Interviewer: There wasn‟t very much divorce? Mrs. Whinery: No. And now when my children, my son Fredrick, of course he‟s an M.D. and those are people that he associates and knows, he looked me right in the face last spring and said “Mom, I don‟t know any happy marriages” and I looked right back at him and I was horrified and I said “Fred, that makes me so damn mad. Your dad and I have been so happy and you go.” He said “I don‟t mean you, Mom” and he said “I was talking about my friends” And when Marney [MacAdam] says to me "Mother, I don‟t know any happy marriages, all my friends are having affairs or are unhappy”. I can‟t understand it. I don‟t like this age. Interviewer: Well, I think that‟s good, it‟s a good place to stop. INDEX Ledyard, William B. (Great-Great-Grandfather) · 6 B Bender, Josephine · 2, 4 P Civic Theatre · 4 Pantlind Hotel · 4 Pantlind, Hilda W. Hummer (Mother) · 6, 7 Pantlind, James Boyd (Grandfather) · 3, 4 Pantlind, Jessie Louise Aldrich (Grandmother) · 2, 3, 6 I S Immen, Loraine Pratt · 1 Shakespeariana Club · 1 K T Kent Country Club · 5 The Depression · 8 L W Ladies Literary Club · 2, 5 Women‟s City Club · 5 C � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ce3e950f14725ee3425b2ed741f92f43.mp3 f543ad30e141383bfd31b91478350d11 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_12Whinery Title A name given to the resource Whinery, Katherine Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Whinery, Katherine Description An account of the resource Katherine Pantlind was the granddaughter of J. Boyd Pantlind, founder of the Pantlind Hotel. She married George Whinery in 1931. She is a prominent member of the Kent County G.O.P. Mrs. Whinery died December 29, 1998. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4104ebfdbffd1447b36d087807b92e25.pdf 4612d87fb5ee4f075e4db9695a6a41c1 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History Collections, RHC-23 Josephine Bender Interviewed on September 9, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape 1 & 2 (30:40) Biographical Information: Josephine Bender was born 17 April 1894 in Grand Rapids, Michigan, the daughter of Charles Henry Bender and Sally Knapp. Josephine died aged 101 years old on 26 March 1996 in Grand Rapids. She and her parents are buried in Oak Hill Cemetery. Charles Henry Bender was born 11 September 1860 in Batavia, Genesee County, New York, the son of William Bender and Josephine Hamberger. The parents were born in Bavaria and Baden, respectively. Charles Bender came to Grand Rapids in 1881. He died 28 March 1936. Charles married Sally Knapp 5 February 1891. She was born in 1871 in New Orleans, Louisiana, the daughter of Theodore J. Knapp and (_____). Sally died in 1953. ___________ Interviewer: Where did you grow up as a child? Miss Bender: I grew up in Grand Rapids and I was born in a street called Terrace Avenue, which was an extension of Prospect Street, south of Wealthy. There was one block in there which was all built up, beyond that, it was mostly vacant lots and an occasional house here and there. A good many prominent people in Grand Rapids, at that time, lived there. For instance, the Wilder Stevens lived on that block. He was in Foster Stevens [Foster, Stevens & Company], which was the big china, silverware, and that sort of thing store. Then there were the Leonards, the Frank Leonards, Mr. Leonard had another big china store. The Mormans, they were the big, or one of the big, coal companies S.A. Morman & Company. The parsonage for the Baptist Church was right across the street from our house. I can remember that there was a Mr. Randall [Rev. John Herman Randall] who was the minister, very popular man. A good many people came up there of the evening to get married. My father would be sitting on the front porch in his smoking jacket and slippers in the evening and Mr. Randall would come across the street and say, “Bender, come on over and stand up with these two.” So, my father [Charles H. Bender] would go over and be the best man, for someone he had never seen before. It was a very interesting block. Then just north of Wealthy, it was almost all a Dutch population. That was where Kos’s grocery store got started, it being, to begin with, just a little addition on the front of the Kos’s house. They had things like needles and thread and bread (there wasn’t much bread bought at that time). Yeast cakes I remember well because I was always being sent over for a yeast cake or two. There was a very fine street of substantial Dutch (Holland) people. Interviewer: Now the neighborhood that you lived in, was that, you said a very short street? �2 Miss Bender: Yes, it [Terrace Avenue] was only between Wealthy & Logan. Interviewer: About how many families lived on that street? Miss Bender: I suppose maybe twenty families lived on that street. They all owned their homes, of course, they didn’t change hands much. Much of the neighborhood life consisted of going over of an evening and sitting on somebody’s porch. There was a good deal of exchanging of food. Someone who had had a particularly good pie made well, they would take it over. If there was anything the matter with anybody then everybody took things to them, and saw that they were all right. It was probably more of a neighborhood because it was somewhat isolated than I would imagine, maybe, some other streets were here. It was a real closely knit little community; it was part of what was known as the Penney Addition. There was an old Colonel [Joseph] Penney, a Colonel in the Civil War, who bought up a great deal of property, and it would all have been south of Wealthy and about from Jefferson up to Morris, or College, along in there. This was known as the Penney Addition. Colonel Penney lived on the corner of Lafayette and Wealthy. He was very proud of the children. He would always talk about the wonderful children in the Penney Addition. Very few people in that neighborhood had horses. The street cars went down Wealthy. There was the Wealthy-Taylor Line, and the Wealthy-Scribner Line, and they both went down Wealthy. If you didn’t walk, which most people did, you took the street car, and then you would have to transfer frequently, but both these street cars, or both these lines, went down to Monroe Street, which was where everybody headed for shopping. But, I really can’t remember anybody in that block that owned horses. The kids had a lot of pets. We had a goat, which we had a little vehicle, known as a “do-se-do”, which we harnessed the goat to, and rode around. Everything was fine until the goat ate the neighbor’s laundry (the wash that was out one day), so unfortunately we then had to give up Billy, the goat. But, everybody of course had dogs, and everybody had a lovely garden. The lots happened to be quite deep on that street, and there were beautiful gardens in the back, and some at the side. Interviewer: Do you think the close-knit fabric in that neighborhood was due to its being somewhat isolated? Miss Bender: Somewhat, yes, I think so. I think of Madison Avenue, which was more of a through street, more built up further to the south than this little block of Terrace Ave. was. Although they were friendly, I think for one thing this was a rather narrow street, the street itself was fairly narrow. I do think that had something to do with it. It was a block that people wanted to live in. I remember the [J. Boyd] Pantlinds. I suppose they built the house which actually was the one I was born in. The Pantlinds moved up on College at that time, and so my parents bought that house. That one was little, not quite as large, I guess, as the one we lived in for probably ten or twelve more years after I was born, and then we moved next door. But, people were always wanting to move into that neighborhood. It was very closely knit. Interviewer: What business was your father in? �3 Miss Bender: Well, at that time my father was a court stenographer. He came here from Batavia, New York. Interviewer: Excuse me, what county is Batavia in? Miss Bender: Very near Buffalo, Genesee County, New York. He went to work when he was fourteen years old, I know, and he went to Buffalo to work. He worked in a place where they had just invented the typewriter. At this time, he was a boy, probably around fifteen or sixteen along there some place, and he was put in the window. He always told this story, about how he was put in the window of this store where they had this strange thing known as a typewriter, and he was made to work the typewriter in the window. Of course he didn’t know one key from the other, but it didn’t make any difference what he wrote. Large crowds of people would gather, and he would get in more flourishes as time went on, he said, pounding the keys. That got him into this kind of business because, of course, shorthand had been invented. There was an opening here. There was a Mr. [Melbourne H.] Ford who had a stenography and shorthand office, and he [Mr. Ford] went into Congress. Interviewer: Went into Congress? Miss Bender: It made an opening. He wanted someone to come into the office. In some way, I don’t know, my father heard about it and so he came out here. That was about 1883 or 1884, or somewhere around there [Ford served in Congress 1885-1886] Interviewer: Down at the library when reading some of those old history books of Grand Rapids, where they would give profiles, autobiographical profiles on some of these old people, I noticed that a considerable number of them came New York, and particularly out of Otsego County, New York. I was just wondering whether you know why so many of these people came from New York. Miss Bender: One thing, of course, that brought a great many people to this part of the country was the Erie Canal. Because, they could put their household goods on barges and go down the Erie Canal. Of course they would go into Ohio, not coming directly to Michigan, but then they came up from Ohio. I can remember quite a few old pieces of furniture in my friends’ houses and they would say this came with my grandfather on the Erie Canal. I think this opened up a great deal of migration from New York State. My father didn’t happen to come that way, but I can remember a lot of people that said that their ancestors, their grandparents usually, had come that way. Interviewer: What did your father do then? Miss Bender: He established an office here and was a court stenographer. He had an interesting time because the judges would go all around in Michigan on their circuits holding court, and my father would go along with them, and many of them became his very close friends and many of �4 the leading lawyers did, for that reason, because they would go, too. He would usually go Monday morning and he’d be gone all week. Newaygo was one place he went where they held court, then he’d go as far as, well, I know he went to Marquette a great deal. He learned a great deal of law that way. Eventually he became a banker. He went into what was known then as the Grand Rapids National Bank. They were the ones who built the McKay Towers. It was during the time my father was in the bank they built the McKay Towers, which it’s now called. But it was always called the Grand Rapids National Bank Building Interviewer: So, it was a bank building at one time? Miss Bender: Oh yes, it was built as a bank. It was tall and very exciting. Interviewer: Would you tell me the story again about when you father was on the Police and Fire Commission? Miss Bender: Well, that was part of the city government at that time, and it was very much coveted thing to be on the Police and Fire Commission. He was an ardent Democrat, when there were practically no Democrats to be found in the state of Michigan, but he was one of them. It was, probably, a Democrat mayor who appointed him. I think, he was appointed during the nineties [1890’s]. At one time very early in his career as a commissioner, they had an unfortunate thing happen, in which the fire department, which of course was horse-drawn at that time, was called to a fire along someplace on Monroe Street. At that time the Salvation Army held nightly meetings down on Campau Square. The Salvation Army was down there tooting away on their horns and holding their meeting and all of a sudden the fire department came tearing down what was known as Canal Street the (later know as Lower Monroe) and turned the corner. The man that was driving the horses saw that if he kept in the street, he would simply run right over the Salvation Army, so he went up onto the sidewalk which was against all the rules, and bypassed the Salvation Army and got to the fire. In 1936, our house burned, and we were living on College at that time. My father had died the spring before and we had this very bad fire. They did heroic work in saving what they could. Well, my mother was very grateful and so she called the chief of the fire department and he [the Chief] said, “Oh, Mrs. Bender. I’ve been waiting for many, many years to repay an old debt.” Then he told her what had happened the time that my father had sponsored his cause and pleaded his cause with the department. He had been discharged for doing this awful thing. My father pleaded his cause so enthusiastically that the man was reinstated, but a fine had to be paid, and I believe he said that my father went so far as to pay the fine for him. So he said, “It’s been many, many years, probably forty or more,” and he said, “I’ve just waited to repay that debt, and I’m glad I could have done what I did.” Interviewer: The Fire Chief was the one who ran the horses up on the sidewalk? Miss Bender: Yes. He said he was a young man at that point, of course. He was reinstated because of my father’s eloquent pleas, and he advanced so that at the time of the fire in 1936, he was the chief of the fire department. �5 Interviewer: You mentioned taking the streetcar downtown, what did people go downtown for mainly? Miss Bender: I can remember that it seems to me we made a daily trip downtown. There were things to be bought at the dry goods stores. There was a good deal of personal shopping to do that went on then, and I think also it was kind of exciting to go down and see what was going on. There was a dry goods store, which is now out of existence, which was called Friedman-Spring, which was down on Campau Square about where one of the 5 & 10 stores is now, Grants or along in there. It was a very good store. In the store they of course had all kinds of departments. The people were in them, year after year, and they grew old clerking in these stores. We used to go to that one a great deal. Then the Boston store was right next door to it. That was run by a Mr. [Charles] Trankla and owned by him. That was also a very good department store. Then there was Steketee’s, which was where it is now. There was Wurzburg’s, which was on lower Monroe. Well, it’s all been torn down now, it was down by Crescent on Lower Monroe. Then [here was] Herpolsheimers which was where Wurzburg’s downtown store is now. Those were the main department stores. Then there was a wonderful candy store named Miss Peale’s and it was run by Miss Peale and, I think, her sister. That would have been up a little east of Ionia on the south side of Monroe. I know she was open on Sundays because the Post Office was open on Sunday. If you wanted to go and walk to the post office and get your mail, which my father did every Sunday after church, and a great many other people did, you would walk down to the post office and then you would stop at Miss Peale’s and buy a box of candy. There was a wonderful chocolate candy called Allegrete. I can remember this was the great treat of the week when we would, after getting the mail at the post office, stop at Miss Peale’s and buy the pound box of Allegrete chocolates. Interviewer: Where was the post office located? Miss Bender: The post office was located where the Federal building still is on the corner of Pearl and Ionia. Of course, at that time it was not what the present building is. It was a smaller building. I know that the present building was built around 1908 or 1910, along in there. But, it was in that same location. There was another very interesting place that was along there on Ionia, where the Shepard garage used to be. It was called Lockerby’s Hall. I think the hall was on the second floor. A great many things were held there. Among other things, I can remember my parents telling me they learned to bicycle there. They had an indoor bicycling rink. This is where they went because, of course, bicycling was very popular around the nineties and around the turn of the century. My father apparently, made one trip around and ran into the wall, breaking the bicycle. That was the end of bicycling with him. But there was a great deal of bicycling that went on. I can remember this Lockerby’s Hall. Then there was Power’s Theatre where the Midtown is now, in the same building really. That was where the legitimates came. Grand Rapids was a great theatre place, one reason being that we were midway between Detroit and Chicago. They would do a “split” week. They would usually stop in Jackson for part of the week and do the rest of the week here in Grand Rapids. Companies that played in Detroit and were going to play long �6 engagements in these places, they were going to Chicago, so then they would stop off here. We had the great stars, they all came here. I think one reason is they liked it a lot here because by this time what used to be called Sweet’s Hotel had turned into the Pantlind and Mr. Boyd Pantlind, who was a most delightful, genial person, was the proprietor of it. He became great friends of all these leading actors. I think they would sort of arrange it to be sure they came to Grand Rapids. I had a lovely collection of autographed photographs that these men had given Mr. Pantlind over the years—Crane, Joe Jefferson, and all those great old actors. Mrs. Pantlind gave it to me after Mr. Pantlind had died. She gave me the collection of photographs. I gave them to the Civic Theatre, and just where they are now, I don’t know. I am sure that [Mr. Pantlind’s friendship] was one reason we got wonderful plays here. Of course, it was geographically important too, their stopping here. I’m sure. Now, then, over here on Reed Drive there was Ramona. Now whether that was really going on at the turn of the century, I don’t know; but very soon afterwards, certainly. The Pavilion, which was on the corner of Wealthy and Lakeside, was owned by the Street Railway Company, and they had wonderful vaudeville here, all the big vaudeville acts were here. I’ve always heard one reason why they also wanted to come here was because, on the south side of Reed’s Lake, there was a little resort thing called Point Paulo. I don’t know who ran it, maybe Mr. Paulo for all I know. Anyway, he had a series of cottages and this was a wonderful place for them to come and stay for a week. They always stayed for a whole week. They could be out on the Lake during the daytime, fishing and all. (Pause in tape) Interviewer: Did you ever come up to the vaudeville shows? Miss Bender: Every week. The Pavilion was a very pleasant place. I know they had boxes along both sides, with rattan chairs in them that were very comfortable and loungy, in the main part. I don’t remember that there was a balcony. There may have been, but [this was] the main part of the auditorium. All around it was all open and there were little soft drink places and that sort of thing along the outside beyond the auditorium part. But it was a most pleasant place to spend an evening and also see very good vaudeville. That was all part of Ramona, which was an amusement park with roller coasters and Tunnels of Love and that sort of thing. [To go] back you took the Wealthy-Taylor Line. That was the only thing that came out to it. It was very well patronized, [and] went for many, many years. Interviewer: Were there very many people living out in this area at the time? Miss Bender: No, all of Reed’s Lake, where these lovely homes are around the outside of the lake now, had a lot of cottages, but they would be just little (quite flimsy, I suppose) cottages that people came to in the summertime, some place to go weekends. There were no permanent homes at that time. Of course, East Grand Rapids was, I guess, non-existent. There were two things, there was the O-Wash-Ta-Nong Club, which I think was called the Lake Side Club to begin with, and that was over here on the shores of Reed’s Lake. That was a very popular club. They had a �7 very good orchestra and excellent food. There was a good deal of boating went on. Speaking of boating, most of the boating on Reed’s Lake, aside of the fishing and that sort of thing, were these two steamers. One was the” Major Watson” and the other was the “Hazel A. Major [Amasa B.] Watson” was a prominent Civil War veteran here and he lived in a big house down where Jacobsen’s downtown place is now. The “Hazel A.” was named for Hazel Amberg. They were a very prominent family here. Those two boats plied around Reed’s Lake, all day long, I guess. There was a big kind of banner along the side that said, “AS LONG AS YOU LIKE FOR TEN CENTS.” So you could get on in the morning and keep going. Over at what is still called Manhattan Road there was a (?) My grandmother used to take my brother and myself out on the Wealthy-Taylor streetcar. She loved the water and she loved these trips. So, I think we’d go and spend the whole afternoon. There was a captain, the so-called captain of one of them, an old character That was around here. He was always known as “Mr. Poison.” His name was spelled P-o-i-s-s-o-n. My grandmother was Southern and so we would come home and my father would say, “Mother, what did you today?” She’d say, Oh, I took the children for a lovely ride with Captain Poisson.” My father would say, “Do you mean “Old Poison?” This would go on every time we made the trip, “Old Poison” to my father but “Captain Poisson” [John H. Poisson] to my mother. Then of course there was Rose’s, which still is in existence. Old Mr. Rose taught swimming. He had a dock. It was kind of a catwalk that went out from the shore and this rather long dock. His method of teaching swimming was to put a belt around your middle and a rope from the back part of the belt. He would hang on to that, and then you would float like a minnow on the water and he would count. I can hear him now; he would say, “One, two, three, one, two, three.” This was how you would learn to do the breast stroke for Mr. Rose. That was also where the skating was in the winter. Rose’s had this building. You would go in there to change your skates. In there, there was an old pot- belly stove. Then you would go down a kind of little gangplank that you went down, a little wooden thing. I suppose it was Rose’s who cleared the skating rink, because I am sure nobody else did. But, that was where we skated in the winter. (Pause in tape) Miss Bender: Do you want me to start over again? Interviewer: Sure, if you want to. Miss Bender: Well you were asking me about some old furniture I have here. It came mostly from my grandmother who was a Southerner. She and my grandfather were married during the Civil War. She was actually put through the lines, war lines were very loose, I guess, during the Civil War. He was a Confederate. She, in some way, was given a pass to go through the lines, because the part of North Carolina she was living in was occupied by Northern troops. They were married. Then after the war, this was in a place called Edenton, North Carolina, which was on the sea coast, my grandfather [Theodore J. Knapp] came back there and had a parish there. This probably was the late seventies, around seventy-five or eighty maybe. At that time oil was discovered in Pennsylvania, so he went there as a minister to all of these mushroom towns that �8 sprang up as a result. He was there for quite a number of years, about four or five maybe. Then the men who had gone in to the oil rush lost interest, and I think the oil business sort of gave out. Just at this time, gold and silver were discovered in Colorado. So, all these men he had ministered to began writing him from Colorado and telling him how he was needed out there; and I’m sure he had an “itching” for it. So he “felt the call” to go. He went down the Ohio River and then down [sic] the Mississippi to St. Louis and over land from St. Louis eventually to Denver. I have all the letters which he wrote my grandmother, who was left back in Pennsylvania with the four children and practically nothing to live on, as far as I could make out. He was a very brilliant person. All these letters were very encouraging to Granny that at any moment then he would get a real parish. At this point he was a Baptist, and “Brother This” and “Brother That,” as they seemed to be called in these parishes, were always about to get a great plan for him; but this took quite a while. He adored Colorado, absolutely fascinated by it. This was Denver in the very early days, with Indians riding through the streets and the streets were just little tracks, really. He talked about how dirty and dusty it was. Finally he did get a parish and Granny and the children went from Pennsylvania out there. I can remember one of the letters said, “Don’t bring a lot of kitchen equipment and things like that but remember all the theological books.” Granny, equipped with four children and the furniture she wanted to keep that had come from her family, went out there. He then became an Episcopalian minister and took the examination and was duly ordained as an Episcopalian minister. He got a parish in a place called Ouray which is way up there. Fascinating place; there were marvelous mines at that point around there. So, they went up there. He built a little church. During his ministry they had no church. He got this church built during the time he was minister there. My mother and father and I went back there one time, and here was this cute little stone church that they said my grandfather had been instrumental in having built. It just happened that they had a service on the Sunday we were there, and we asked if there was anybody who would have known my grandfather. They said there was one man left. It was a ghost town when we were out there, just nothing. But there was this one man, a Mr. Simpson, who was a surveyor. My grandfather used to go out on these trips with him (?). “Well, I guess the only reason that I stayed was I was too lazy to get out, and I loved the country.” So he stayed all these years there. This was in the twenties. He said, “I’ve got a little present I want to give Sally (Sally [Knapp] was my mother’s name) and another for Josephine.” So he gave me some uncut garnets which I thought were very precious, quite a handful of them. Then he said to my mother, I want to give you this stone.” Madame Curie at that point was working on uranium. He had had a meeting with her in Denver when she came to this country. We took our treasures away and I put mine in a safety deposit box because I thought they were so valuable. When the atomic bomb took place, uranium was all over the front pages. I read my mother this article from the New York Times all about it, and it told about the few deposits that there were in this country and that one of them was very near Ouray. My mother said, “Well, I must get my uranium out.” I thought, oh heavens, what’s she talking about? So I said, “Now mother, I’m going to read this article all over to you again and explain it once more She said, “I understand. You know Mr. Simpson gave me a piece of uranium.” So she went into desk, and done up in a piece of Kleenex �9 was this piece of uranium, which then became very important in Grand Rapids. It was shown in the museum and all kinds of places. Interviewer: In the summertime, some people came out to Reed’s Lake. Where did the other people go; where did they spend their summers? Miss Bender: A lot of people had cottages on Lake Michigan, even then. There was an interurban line that went to Grand Haven and also to Muskegon. I can remember going down to visit people who had places on Lake Michigan on the interurban. Then there was a train that went to Ottawa Beach and a great many people had cottages at Ottawa Beach. This train used to come up in the morning and go down at night. It was a kind of dummy line. I know we had a place down at Ottawa Beach for quite a number of summers. The men used to go up on the train in the morning and come down at night. I think that to all these small lakes around here all up through northern Michigan the G.R.& I. (Grand Rapids and Indiana Railroad) was the railroad that went up there; and also the Pere Marquette. We were a number of summers in Charlevoix and I can remember going up, that was on the Pere Marquette, but the G.R.& I. also went up north. Those were the days when it was fun to go on a train, you know, the parlor cars and the dining cars. I think there was quite a lot of activity on the Grand River. The “Boat and Canoe” is still in existence, I guess, isn’t it? Interviewer: I think it’s the American Legion Club, isn’t it? Miss Bender: Yes, I guess it is. That was a very popular club for a long time. It was known as the Boat and Canoe Club. Exactly when that was I don’t know. That must have been soon after 1900, along in there. They had very good tennis courts, they used to have tennis tournaments, State and Western Michigan. Then there was a great deal of boating, canoeing. Quite a number of people had house-boats out there. They would live on the houseboats, and be kind of hooked up at the dock of the Boat and Canoe Club. Of course there use to be steamers that went down the Grand River to Grand Haven. I think they have one now that is a sort of excursion boat. Interviewer: What kind of steamers were they, were they paddle wheel boats? Miss Bender: I think so, I don’t remember going on them. People also had places on the [river]. The Kelsey family had one of those houses down in Eastmanville. We use to go down there a good deal with them. That was a matter of going on the interurban to what is called Marne now. It was called Berlin until the First World War, then you couldn’t call anything Berlin, so the name was then changed to Marne. I remember they use to come over; they would come over there and get us and drive us back. There was quite a number of people, the Hefferan family here had several houses along there. The Foote family had houses along there. They were all old houses that they fixed up or converted somewhat—lovely old houses. Interviewer: Are any of those old houses still standing? �10 Miss Bender: Oh, yes they all are. I think they’re all still there. They were beautifully located. But at that time you didn’t have to do much, except to be in one place. I can remember they had sheep, and Ann Kelseyhas a little lamb that really followed you. Well, it was exciting enough to go and give the lamb a bath in the Grand River. That was really all the excitement you needed. There was a good deal of card playing as part of the entertainment here. There were a lot of Whist Clubs. This was before the days of Bridge Auction Bridge. But there was a great deal of whist and a great deal of Euchre. There was a thing called Military Euchre where you advance from one table to another with a flag in your hand. I remember my parents belonged to it, the Military Euchre Club. That was a great deal of the entertainment in those days where the various card clubs were. Interviewer: What other clubs were there? Miss Bender: What developed into the Kent County Country Club was first, where the clubhouse is, the M.R. Bissell, the present M.R. Bissell, house on the corner of Plymouth and Wealthy, on the northeast of Plymouth and Wealthy. And then the golf course was where Blodgett Hospital is. They had a nine hold golf course. This was one of the very early golf courses in this country. There were a few men here, one being Mr. Edward Lowe, who was an Englishman, He had known golf in England--Scotland I suppose. There a few men who had heard about golf, mostly in England, I think. So, they started this club. The clubhouse was really the present M.R. Bissell house, and then the golf course was across the street of Wealthy where Blodgett Hospital and all that area in around 1899 or there abouts, what was called Sweet Farm, out where Kent Country Club is now, was nothing but a farm house and wheat fields and grazing ground and all that. It went along Knapp Avenue and Plainfield, about the area it has now. They established this club and a very good golf course [with an] architect lay-out and the club was started. After that the next club was Highlands Country Club which is the Elks Club over on West Leonard. That was the next one, and then I think Cascade was the one after that. Interviewer: Were there quite a few social functions held at these country clubs or was it just golf? Miss Bender: Oh no, it was very social. They were very fortunate at Kent Country Club. Very early they got this couple, Ida, who was the cook, and Walter, her husband, who was the general other factotum. She had been a cook as a very young person, who still was very young, with the Wanty family, the Judge [George P]. Wanty family. Then, they wanted a couple out to run the club, so Ida and Walter took the job. They were simply wonderful because she didn’t know too, too much about cooking to begin with but she was one to never say she didn’t know how to do anything. There were a certain number of women, Mrs. Clay Hollister, Mrs. Dudley Waters, and my mother, and they said their husbands were all officers and directors of the Club and they were anxious to have everything go well. So they said, “Now Ida, we will always give you a hand and help you with everything you want. I always remember the time when Mrs. John Blodgett was giving a very elegant luncheon for somebody from away, that was going to be here. �11 Ida called my mother up and said “Mrs. Bender, Mrs. Blodgett is having a luncheon on Thursday.” My mother said, “Yes, I know.” She said, “She asked me to have soft-shelled crabs.” She said, “I never even seen one, but,” she said, I wouldn’t say I didn’t know how to fix them.”So I [sic] said, “Oh yes indeed, they will have to have soft-shelled crabs”. So, she said, “What do I do?”Then mother said, “Ida, you get the soft-shelled crabs from Dettenthalers, (which was the great fish market down on (117) Monroe Street) and be sure they’re crawling and I’ll take the streetcar out and show you how to fix them”. Ida said, “Are you going to the luncheon?” “Oh yes,” my mother said. “I’m going to the luncheon, but I’ll come out in the morning”. Well, going on the streetcar from where we were living at that point, on Terrace Avenue, consisted of going on the Wealthy-Taylor Line then transferring to the Plainfield Line, then transferring to a funny little thing called Carrier Line, which went from Plainfield Avenue up to College and out College to the Country Club, and then turned around and went back. So my mother, nothing daunting, and I know this trip used to take at least three-quarters of an hour (we always allowed three-quarters of an hour), went out to show Ida how to fix the soft-shelled crabs. She took the street car back, then took the hack, which was the means of conveyance when you were going elegantly to something. So, she ordered the hack and the hack came and took her out to the luncheon, where she ate the soft-shelled crabs. But it was a wonderful club, it had a wonderful spirit because everybody was enthusiastic and wanted it to go well. I have a lot of pictures of it of those early days. You can’t believe it now, it looks like a park, you know, in comparison on to this, what was really just fields. Trees were planted but they were little things. But they had a terribly good time and awfully, awfully good spirit and lots of parties. Interviewer: It sounds like living in those days was a very pleasant, relaxed way of living. What happened to that society, that style of living when the depression came along? Miss Bender: Well, when the depression came along, life had become much more sophisticated then it was. I have been talking more or less about things of the turn of the century. When the Depression came along we, after all, had been through one war. That put an entirely different light on everything, the First World War. Everybody pitched into war work, and things were certainly never the same after that. Then came the twenties, which were absolutely wild. I was young at that point, and was probably in on what it did to young people and the way it changed their way of living. I mean, I had been utterly unsophisticated before the twenties. Prohibition had a great effect because, you know, whereas you hadn’t had very many drinks up to that point, then it became exciting to do it. You would go to New York and you’d go to speakeasies and it was all a completely different kind of thing. Then of course, the Depression came along. Really the depression, as I look back on it, crept up on you very slowly. Now I wonder if, you know, if it’s creeping up on us now the way it did then. After all, the crash came in ’29, but it was several years before the banks were closed. That in itself took quite a while. The impact of it took quite a while because you really didn’t realize it. I can remember my father was the type of person who never had five dollars on his person, and although he was a banker, at the moment he didn’t seem to have any money on him. So I remember, he said to my mother, “Now Sally, you’re the kind �12 that would have about one hundred in cash in your safety deposit box.” My mother wouldn’t admit it for a while, but finally she said, “Well yes, I have put a little cash in my safety deposit box.” So, I remember we all lived off her for quite a while. You couldn’t believe it, really when it finally happened. Then, of course, with Roosevelt giving everybody a great deal of hope, really kind of pulling you out of it. To me it was more the twenties. (Pause in tape) Interviewer: You have marked the end of one social era, so to speak, not the depression, but the First World War. Why do you think it had such a dramatic effect on people? Miss Bender: Well, because for one thing it had been such an easy life. I can remember Mr. [Samuel A. Morman saying to my father, during my father’s last illness, he said, “You know, Bender, any man that had half a brain and any kind of ambition could have been successful during our era.” This was true. During the nineties and up to 1914 or 1916, any man who was willing to work, where in many times since then I’m sure it hasn’t stood people in good stead. You had certain principles that you lived by, and if you lived by them, why, you came out all right. And it wasn’t easy at times, as we look back on it now. I mean, people didn’t have a great deal of money most of them. But, on what they could live comfortably and Grand Rapids was a wonderful community, I think largely because of the Dutch people we have, who were thrifty and saving and law-abiding. So everything was going along better and better and better. Then we were certainly influenced by the war in Europe before we got into it. But then once we were in it, everybody was Red Crossing, in the YMCA, Liberty Bonds were being sold, and rallies were being held. As I recall, there was very little social life, because everybody was throwing themselves {sic} into the war effort. And for one thing, I guess you were kind of tired when they came. So that was the thing that was a turning point. Then when the war was over, certainly beginning around 1920, everything went sort of, kind of, wild. You know, it was a reaction for one thing. Of course, then suddenly there was much more money because there hadn’t been a great deal of production of anything but war stuff during the war. Then suddenly everybody was getting all kinds of things. I’m sure it was when we all had our first washing machine and mangle. I don’t think, well, I know we didn’t have an electric refrigerator at that point. But you were buying a good many more things like that. There was a great deal of travel then, too. People were always going places. You were not able to go to Europe for quite a while. There was a great deal of European travel at that time. That made a difference. Planes didn’t come along, of course, until later, but the trains were excellent. You could go any place and really in great comfort and luxury and all. Then of course automobiles, many people got their first automobiles along in that period. That made a lot of difference. Interviewer: Things were not the same after the war? Miss Bender: No. I’m sure the automobile, of course, had an awful lot to do with it. You didn’t live in these little neighborhood communities which were very pleasant and completely �13 satisfying before that. But when the automobile came along, then you were dashing off to New York and then dashing off to Chicago, and dashing off to Lake Michigan. If you were real courageous, you took a trip East. You know, it took you away, then from the local center. Interviewer: I think that’s a good point [on which] to end. INDEX B Bender, Charles H. (Father) · 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, 8, 11, 12 Bender, Sally Knapp (Mother) · 4, 7, 8, 10, 11, 12 Bissell, M.R. · 10 Blodgett, Mrs. John · 10 Boat and Canoe Club · 9 K Kelsey Family · 9 Kelsey, Ann · 10 Kent County Country Club · 10 Knapp, Grandmother · 8 Knapp, Theodore J. (Grandfather) · 3, 7, 8 Kos’s Grocery Store · 1 C Curie, Marie · 8 D L Leonards Family · 1 Lockerby’s Hall · 5 Lowe, Edward · 10 Dettenthalers · 11 M F Foote Family · 9 Ford, Melbourne H. · 3 Foster Stevens & Company · 1 Friedman-Spring Dry Goods Store · 5 G Grand Rapids National Bank · 4 H Hazel A Steamer · 7 Hefferan Family · 9 Herpolsheimers · 5 Highlands Country Club · 10 Hollister, Mrs. Clay · 10 Major Watson Steamer · 7 Military Euchre Club · 10 O Ottawa Beach · 9 O-Wash-Ta-Nong Club · 6 P Pantlind, Boyd · 6 Pantlind, Mrs. · 6 Pantlinds Family · 2 Peale, Miss · 5 Penney, Colonel Joseph · 2 Point Paulo · 6 Poisson, Captain · 7 Prohibition · 11 �14 R T Randall, Rev. John Herman · 1 Reed’s Lake · 6, 9 Rose, Mr. · 7 The Police and Fire Commission · 4 The Salvation Army · 4 Trankla, Charles · 5 S W S.A. Morman & Company · 1 Simpson, Mr. · 8 Steketee’s · 5 Street Railway Company · 6 Wanty Family · 10 Waters, Mrs. Dudley · 10 Wilder Stevens Family · 1 Wurzburg’s · 5 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6186bdf5047707329090825cecda8092.mp3 48ccb5bdc64bb5637eb301ee176018c7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_1-2Bender Title A name given to the resource Bender, Josephine Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bender, Josephine Description An account of the resource Josephine Bender was born on April 17, 1894 in Grand Rapids. She graduated from Vassar College and was a member of the Grand Rapids Boat and Canoe Club. She died on March 26, 1996. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/18c365546a932e069d6a5ab3e13666b3.pdf d7b3db4290006fea9fb15690ae91823a PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Miss Mabel Perkins Interviewed on September 16, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #11 (45:50) Biographical Information Mabel Helen Perkins was born 26 July 1880, daughter of Cyrus Edwin and Della A. (Foote) Perkins. Mabel died November 1974. Cyrus E. Perkins was born 9 October 1847 in Lawrence, Massachusetts, the son of Cyrus E. and Lydia M. (Birney) Perkins. He died 23 May 1918 in Grand Rapids, Michigan and is buried in Oak Hill Cemetery. Della Antoinette Foote was born 24 Aug 1848 in Olcott, Niagara County, New York to Elijah and Olivia (Luce) Foote. Della died in Grand Rapids in 1936. She and Cyrus had been married 20 September 1876 in Kent County, Michigan. ___________ Interviewer: Miss Perkins, you’ve lived here all your life, and it’s more than ninety years now, what did your father do, where did your father come from? Miss. Perkins: Oh, my father came from the east, Massachusetts, directly from Boston, but he was only nine years old when he came here with his family. They came over, on the train as far as Jackson and then over corduroy road into Grand Rapids. Interviewer: A corduroy road? Miss Perkins: Yes. Interviewer: What is a corduroy road? Miss Perkins: A corduroy road is, is logged, they’re logs laid side by side, dirt put over the top. Interviewer: Why did your father’s family come to Grand Rapids, what brought them here? Miss Perkins: Oh, because they were having a hard time making a living off their stony farms in Maine and Connecticut and they came out here to get their farming land. My grandfather however wasn’t a farmer, he never farmed, he worked in the city. I don’t know what he did. Interviewer: What did your father do… what kind of business? Miss Perkins: My father, well, he studied law here with one of the lawyers in Grand Rapids, Judge Harlan, I remember, and then he was a lawyer, and for his first, he became judge of probate when he was just a young man, before he was married. And he was judge of probate for many years here. �2 Interviewer: Where did you grow up as a child? Miss Perkins: Here in Grand Rapids, oh, in Boston up to nine. He was nine years old when he left. Interviewer: Oh, I see. Where did you grow up as a child? Miss Perkins: I? Interviewer: Yes, what part of the city? Miss Perkins: I? Interviewer: Yes. Miss Perkins: You were talking about me? Interviewer: Yes. Miss Perkins: Why, I grew up right on Washington Street, that’s where I was born in the house on [327] Washington Street. Interviewer: I used to live next door to you, I don’t know if you remember that, I used to have a red sports car, and I’d be out polishing my car, I remember you used to come outside, and just look at the car, and it always seemed to me there was a gleam in your eye when you looked at that red sports car. Miss Perkins: I don’t remember, no. I don’t hear awfully well, you better talk a little louder. Interviewer: Alright, what was it like living on Washington Street, what was it like living there as a child? Miss Perkins: Very pleasant, it was a very quiet, charming street then, beautifully shaded in trees, just convenient to Downing[?] Street, you see, wonderful neighborhood and everything was very pleasant. School, Fountain Street School. I always walked to school. Wasn’t so dangerous crossing Fulton in those days. We used to slide down Fulton, as a matter of fact. Interviewer: During the wintertime? Miss Perkins: Yes, during the winter. It was just, we generally started it then, Prospect Street, went down to Jefferson Avenue. It’s good, steep hill. Interviewer: Yes. Miss Perkins: But the favorite hill of the town was Washington Street. They use to come from all over the city, big boys with great big bobs, and slide down Washington Street hill, because �3 there wasn’t so much traffic crossing it, you see, and this, had the, it sanded just before it got to Jefferson Avenue. Interviewer: Oh, I see. Miss Perkins: Jefferson Avenue was a big street in those days. We used to have horse races every Sunday, did I tell you that when you were here before? Interviewer: No. Miss Perkins: Every Sunday they had horse races during the winter on Jefferson Ave. Cutting, the horses drawing their cutters, you know. My father used to take me down and we’d stand, on the sidelines and the watch men go by. Oh, it was such fun. Just one horse and a cutter, you know. And they always had foxtails on their ropes, and the foxtails all floated out behind. I thought it was wonderful. Quite a sight. Interviewer: Did your father ever race any horses himself? Miss Perkins: Oh no, no, father didn’t but he was very much interested. My father lived on Jefferson Avenue as a boy, before he was married. Interviewer: Where abouts on Jefferson? Miss Perkins: Oh, the house has been gone for a long, long time. It was a red brick house that sat way back from the street, I remember. And it had chickens, everybody had chickens or cows or things around town then. I’d wake up in the morning and hear the cows mooing, and I just loved it. Interviewer: Was Jefferson Avenue quite a residential area at one time? Miss Perkins: Oh, yes, that was one of the main residential areas; the rich, richest people in town lived on it. Jefferson Avenue. Interviewer: That would be on Jefferson, approximately where those stores all are now, yes? Miss Perkins: It would be beginning for about Island Street, I remember, the big house. There were two big houses on each corner. They don’t call it Island Street now, Weston. Interviewer: Yes. Miss Perkins: Is it Weston? Interviewer: Yes. Miss Perkins: Two big houses on either side and then the big houses stretched on down towards Wealthy. �4 Interviewer: Well, that was, when you were growing up that was the days before the automobile? Miss Perkins: Oh, heavens, hadn’t even dreamed of an automobile. It was the days before bicycles, the bicycles came in. And the, Washington Street was one of the first streets paved in the city. They paved State Street, they put up cedar blocks on State Street, that was the first pavement, they tried out the cedar blocks. And on Washington Street they tried out asphalt. And so asphalt, it was the first pavement in front of our house. And oh, how we used to love to ride our bicycles on that. We had bicycles by the time that was down. The whole, everybody and anywhere in the neighborhood, oh anywhere in that quarter of the city, came to ride their bicycles on that pavement. Interviewer: Must have been pretty crowded at times. Miss Perkins: Oh, we had a lot of fun. Interviewer: Did people used to go up and down your street in horse and carriages and things like that? Miss Perkins: Oh, surely, surely. There was a young girl living across the street from me that knew all about horses. I didn’t, I was afraid of horses, but we’d sit on the porch, on the stoop, as we used to call it, and she would blindfold her eyes and then she would tell what horse was coming up the street, and who the coachman was. And who was driving, and all about, “Here comes Mr. Fuller” she’d say, with his foot hanging out the side, as usual and old Molly on ahead. Molly was… she knew the names of the horses. Interviewer: How did she tell who the horses were, and so on? Miss Perkins: Oh, she knew it, she could tell by the fall of the, that ole horse had a particular gait, you know. She knew that old klop, klop klop….. and, she would, she would on, she knew Mr., Knot.(?), lived on the top of the street, you know, and he’d be coming along with his blacks, he had a wonderful pair of black horses, always with coachman driving, she knew that, and Mr. [Samuel] Jenks, who lived on the corner, he had, he had bays, she knew them. She could tell by the gait of the horse. Interviewer: Who are some of your neighbors in those days? Miss Perkins: Who were some of the neighbors? Interviewer: Yes. Who lived along Washington Street and up on College and so on? Miss Perkins: Well, it was Judge [Loyal E] Knappen. That lived right across the street, and then later it was Mr. Wylie, the bank president, and Mr. [Edward] Fitzgerald lived across the street on the corner. He was also a banker, and went to California later, the whole family went to California, after his death, so we don’t recognize that name in Grand Rapids anymore, but it was a very prominent family. Mr. [Edmund D.] Barry had a house next door, that house is still there, �5 well, both those houses are. And, he was a son-in-law of the banker. And then the Knappen’s. I don’t remember who lived right across from me, when I was a little girl it was a man named Donnelly, but he was the only Democrat on the street. And when Cleveland was elected and the Republicans were just defeated from one end to the other, there wasn’t a Republican elected, oh, Mr. Donnelly was right in his…element. I remember him calling upon by father, you see, who was running for Judge of Probate, and that was the only time that he was defeated. Interviewer: I wonder why, why was that, why did the Democrats sweep everything that year? Miss Perkins: I’ve forgotten, of course I was just a little girl, I’ve forgotten the ins and outs, but there was an absolute clean sweep. Not a Republican was elected. And, of course, this was a Republican state. But, there was a man, there was a well, I won’t say anything about it, because they have relatives in Grand Rapids, but this man was also a neighbor, lived around on Lafayette Street was elected, and then, the end of the first year he skipped with a lady and all the money that was in the office. So then they had a Democratic governor, but everybody in Grand Rapids got up an enormous petition, every, everybody, Republicans, Democrats, everybody signed and sent it down to the Democratic governor to have father reappointed Judge of Probate, and the Democratic governor appointed him Judge of Probate. So he got his old office back, and that was his only defeat. Interviewer: Was the Waters’ estate built then? Miss Perkins: Oh, yes, oh, the Waters’ estate I don’t know when that was built, but that was built long before I was born. Interviewer: What was it like up there? Did you ever go up there and play as a child? Miss Perkins: Oh yes, did I tell you about the time I ran away with the little boy across the street? Interviewer: No. Miss Perkins: We dragged our sleds up there, it was in the middle of summer, but we wanted to go sliding on those hills, so we dragged our sleds up there, and we were so surprised, oh, it was a perfectly charming place then. It was a little rustic bridge that crossed a little ravine and, you went over the little rustic bridge and, there was a perfectly charming little summerhouse, with lattice windows all around it and it had iron French furniture on the porch. Thought it was wonderful, just simply wonderful. And , but finally we had to go home, and when we were going home the cook in the big Waters house saw us going by and knew that we were little runaways and she called to us and said, “Children, would you like a little bit of ice cream?” Well, you can imagine…And so we went up there and she took a trap door up from the back porch and way down in the coolness of the underneath the porch in the, in the, well there was a sort of a well �6 there, she pulled out this ice cream and gave it to us, each a dish. It was wonderful. But my mother didn’t like it at all, and I got a severe scolding when I got home. Interviewer: For running away or eating ice cream? Miss Perkins: For running away… Interviewer: Oh. Miss Perkins: For running away… Should never have done it. She looked for me and she didn’t know where to find me, and it frightened her, of course. Interviewer: Was there, were there houses, was Gay Street built at that time? Did Gay Street run between Washington and Fulton? Miss Perkins: No, no, that was an apple orchard. You see, that property on Fulton Street was the Campau property, and Mr. Campau had intended, in fact he did build a big house there, but before he finished that house his bank failed, the River, Grand River Bank, it failed. And he felt so terribly about it, that he stopped all the building of the house, he never moved in and he lived in his little house where he was living at that time and gradually paid off everybody that had invested in his bank. Interviewer: Is that right? Miss Perkins: Yes. Interviewer: He must have been quite a man. Miss Perkins: He was, but we used to love to go in the, this was, it was all empty, great big staircase running up, and on the top was a cupola, you know, one of those lookout places and we used to go up there, we loved to go up there, it was so romantic, and the whole, the whole cupola was painted with the Grand River Valley Bank Notes. Never been used, you know, they weren’t even cut up. They were all together in a block, and he painted the cupola with those old worthless bank notes. Interviewer: When did that Campau house come down? The house that’s built on the property? Miss Perkins: Well, I don’t know, that’s very recently. Interviewer: Is it? Miss Perkins: Yes. Interviewer: What a… Miss Perkins: Very recently, I suppose, must have been twenty [or] thirty years ago. �7 Interviewer: The Gay, people, furniture company, built that big green house? Miss Perkins: Yes. Interviewer: That stands on their property now? Miss Perkins: They did, and that, I was going to say about the orchard, the orchards sloped down from this Campau house, that was Campau property. That whole section is the Campau addition, that’s the way it’s, it’s on the city books. And my brother and Arthur Vandenberg used to play in that orchard a great deal. It was wonderful to have that for a playground for boys, and they built cabins there and had caves, they had a wonderful time. They had a cave, that was their first project, they made a cave and my mother was worried about that she had my father go up and look at it to see if it was safe for the boys. My father said no, they couldn’t play there. So they must build a cabin on top of the ground. So they did. Interviewer: In your neighborhood when you were growing up, did people have a lot of activities together? Miss Perkins: No, as a neighborhood, no, not especially, no they didn’t. Interviewer: Did people spend much time on, their porches? Miss Perkins: Oh, yes, everybody sat on their front porch and did embroidery. Interviewer: Did embroidery? Miss Perkins: It was embroidery rather than knitting, everybody was doing embroidery in my childhood days. Interviewer: Was that a peaceful time, was that a peaceful day? Miss Perkins: I didn’t hear you. Interviewer: That period of time, was it, was it more peaceful than it is today, do you think? Miss Perkins: No, I don’t think there were more people. Interviewer: No, peaceful, peaceful? Miss Perkins: Peaceful? Interviewer: Yes. Miss Perkins: I get you. You were always extremely peaceful, you couldn’t have asked for anything more peaceful. It was just quiet as could be and every morning the, the man came around with his wagon all full of vegetables you know, and you went out and bought your vegetables, your fresh vegetables. Milkman came around first thing in the morning. Oh, it was �8 peace itself… Cocks were crowing. You could hear crows cawing in the winter. It was much, much more like a village and less like a big city. However, it was always, always a considerable size, but I mean people did have room to have their own cows. Now, for instance, where I am, where we are now there was always a cow there behind the Ledyard property, we’re on the Ledyard property now. And, Mr. and, well it was Katherine Lockwood’s grandfather that lived next door, can’t think of his name now. Interviewer: Not Pantlind? The one before Pantlind? Miss Perkins: No, Pantlind was her…. Her name. her father’s name was Pantlind and I don’t connect him with Grand Rapids. He came here as a hotel man, you know. Interviewer: Let’s see, Aldrich, was it Aldrich? Miss Perkins: Aldrich, that’s what I mean, the Aldrich family was next door. It was Mrs. Aldrich, Mrs. Aldrich’s daughter, that gave that fountain out there on the corner that’s been stolen. Interviewer: They recently moved that, they removed that statue over to John Ball Park. Miss Perkins: Oh, did they? Interviewer: Yes, they put it over there now. Miss Perkins: Well, I thought they were going to take it over there, but somebody told me it had been stolen again. Interviewer: Yes. Miss Perkins: It was lost for a long time, you know, they found it, in Fisk Lake, I guess Interviewer: Oh, where did the country begin? What was out in the country in those days? Miss Perkins: Beyond the east, Eastern, we took, you got a streetcar as far as Eastern, and then you got off of the streetcar and on a little dummy line, that went out to the lake, and the country really began about there. Interviewer: Were there farms out in that area, were there mostly farms? Miss Perkins: Well, I don’t remember farms exactly, I don’t really truly remember much about what was in that part of the country. But it was all open land, it must have been farms. Interviewer: When you, you went to the public schools in Grand Rapids? Miss Perkins: Fountain. Interviewer: Yes, where did you go to college? �9 Miss Perkins: Vassar. Interviewer: Did many, many girls, the daughters of the people living in this area, go off to eastern schools? Miss Perkins: Well, the first went, the first young woman that went to an eastern school went to Vassar. I think she was Eleanor Withey, Mr. Lew Withey’s sister, who was a very up and coming girl and she, nobody had been there, if they’d been away to school at all it would have been to a finishing school. But she wanted to go to college and she found out about Vassar, and she went to Vassar. And she was so enthusiastic about Vassar, she, she loved every brick in its buildings, and she induced a lot of Grand Rapids people. At first, anybody going away to college didn’t think of anything but Vassar. Then gradually Smith came in and later Wellesley. But the first girls that went from, that went east to college, went to Vassar. And Mrs. Willard is the one that induced me to go to Vassar. Interviewer: Who is Mrs. Willard? Miss Perkins: . Willard was the, she married Mr. Willard, she was Eleanor Withey…the only girl in the Withey family and quite important. She was very, very smart, and after she came back here, she wanted to study art and she went to, the Art Institute in Chicago. Don’t think she did much in the art line, but she was, she stayed on as a volunteer in the art gallery, and learned all about managing, how it was managed and so forth. So when we started our art gallery here, Mrs. Willard of course was one of the prime movers and she was the first director of the art gallery; and because she knew more about art than any other of the women that was instrumental in starting it, she organized the Grand Rapid’s Art Gallery on the line of the Art Institute in Chicago. Everything was just the same and it has been all these years, they have changed the directors and increased the work and it’s grown in importance in various and sundry ways. But fundamentally, it’s just , it’s worked out just as Mrs. Willard organized it. Interviewer: When, when was the art gallery founded? Miss Perkins: I ought to know, but I think it was, I think it was nineteen thirteen, or somewhere around in there. Interviewer: Were you active in the art gallery from the beginning? Miss Perkins: Oh, all my life, all my life, cause my mother was the one, one of the prime movers in starting it. She, she’d been put on some committee to start some sort of work for the city, that would be in the interest of the city, and after long deliberation they hit upon starting an art gallery for Grand Rapids. Wasn’t any great demand for an art gallery at the time, I thought, but my mother said there would be, and we ought to have an organization, we ought to have everything ready for the time it was coming, when they would want and would need an art gallery. So we began and believe me it was uphill work. �10 Interviewer: What, can you tell me about some of the problems that you had in starting the gallery? Miss Perkins: Well, there was always one problem, money, money, money, money. Everything came back to that. And unfortunately there, the women who started it, none of them had any amount of money to turn in, to give to the city, so we started out poor, and it’s been a very, very difficult job. Because as it grew stronger, as its influence grew wider, by that time men weren’t giving their money in that sort of way. There were all these foundations came into being, and that’s another matter. A man gives his wealth to a foundation instead of giving it to different organizations, you see. And that made a great difference. Interviewer: How did it make a difference exactly? Miss Perkins: Because there were also of men that would have given to the art, you know they didn’t know where to put their money. And they would say to the lawyer “Now, let me see. I ought to give away a certain amount” in making their wills, you know a lawyer would say “How about this and that organization, they need it.” I know the lawyers have told me that was the procedure many times. And, then, the donor would give a good sized gift to different organizations in this, in the city, different civic movements. But by then, but then this business of having a foundation came in, and you give to the foundation. The foundation is supposed to give to the different organizations, but you can see the difference, if a , if you had control of the money, you know how you could spend it as you wish, but if you’re going to get it from a foundation, and the foundations have been very generous to the art gallery, there’s no question about that, but you have to have your project lined out, you have to go and ask for the money, you see. You can’t, you don’t have the freedom that you’d have if you had control of the money. You can’t count on it. You always have to ask for it. Interviewer: Well, then in other words, when the art museum was in its founding days, the people with a great deal of money in town, the great amounts of money, weren’t particularly involved in it? Miss Perkins: No, they weren’t. Mr. [Blodgett?] tried to get them interested but they all had their own ideas. Blodgett’s for example, Mrs. Blodgett was on the first board, she was very much interested in founding the gallery, working it up. But they had their big Blodgett Hospital that they were putting up. Interviewer: Oh, they had their own little projects then. Miss Perkins: Yes. Interviewer: Were clubs and organizations important to people back then? Miss Perkins: Cultural? Well, you know the Ladies Literary Club was the first organization of that kind in the country. And it was a very, it was the first one to own its own building. It was �11 very important. That really was the big cultural movement for the women in the city, and it was good, it played a very important part in their lives. Interviewer: What what kind of a role did it play in their lives? Why was it important to them? Miss Perkins: Well, I’ve heard my mother always, she wasn’t able to go away to school, she said she didn’t know anything about these schools outside of Grand Rapids, you know, and she found it very, very educational. It gave her an outlet that, at the beginning the ladies all worked up their own papers, you know. They did a great deal of hard work, and my mother always thought it was a wonderful, educational opportunity. Interviewer: Is the Ladies Literary Club still thriving? Miss Perkins: I don’t, I, well the Ladies Literary Club it had so much competition in the Women’s City Club, for example, and there, there’s a great deal more in the cultural life now then there was then. Interviewer: I see. Miss Perkins: There are all kinds, well, look at all the colleges sprung up here, and there. Every college had some classes that are open to the public, they have different lectures, and well, it’s a different place entirely. I think it’s amazing how much cultural opportunities people have in Grand Rapids now, if they take, if they avail themselves of them. It didn’t used to be that way. Well, it started first with courses and lectures and courses in music, you know, the St. Cecilia Society came in there. Interviewer: Was that an important organization? Miss Perkins: That was very important when it was begun, and it was begun by some very important, society within Grand Rapids. It was very much a society thing to belong to the St. Cecilia. Interviewer: That’s not true anymore though… Miss Perkins: Not more than the, not more than the Literary Club. That was, that was the main movement here. Interviewer: Yes. Miss Perkins: Do you suppose that’s heard what I said? Interviewer: That’s an amazing thing isn’t it, that machine would hear this and pick it all up and put it down on tape. I hope so, want to see? Would you like to see if it’s picked it up? Miss Perkins: Yes. �12 Interviewer: Alright. [Track 2: transcribed directly from CD to Word] Interviewer: One impression that I have gotten from talking to the various people I have interviewed so far is that there was a way of life in the city that is no longer in existence, a style of living. A question that I have asked everybody is what, in their opinion, they think ended that style of living? Where the way that people lived before began evolving into the kind of living we have today, for example. Do you have any idea, what do you think it was? Miss Perkins: Well, I suppose it’s the wars, they changed everything. Interviewer: How did they change things? Miss Perkins: We were so very peaceful before, there was no trouble. Everything moved along slowly, smoothly, pleasantly. And I don’t remember any troubles at all. Then the wars came and the sadness and the disruption. I think that after the wars, life was changed. Interviewer: And the wars had quite a profound impact on at least Grand Rapids? Miss Perkins: East Grand Rapids? Interviewer: No, on the city of Grand Rapids. Miss Perkins: Oh. Well, I think it must. Interviewer: Yes. Miss Perkins: At least it was about that time, that life seemed to change. It was gradual, you know, it wasn’t all at once. Interviewer: Yes. Was your family, would you consider your family, the Perkins family as having been a member of the society? Miss Perkins: Well, there was no Perkins family, we were the only Perkins that were. Well there were other Perkins too, but they weren’t related to us. They weren’t our family. Interviewer: Ok. I was thinking of your mother and father, for example were they members of society? Miss Perkins: Yes, I suppose you might consider them such, especially my mother. My father was always a very quiet man, very dignified. Interviewer: Yes, what did? Pardon, excuse me. Go ahead. Miss Perkins: I suppose you would consider, they knew everybody and everybody knew them if that is what you consider society. I wouldn’t know what you really consider society. �13 Interviewer: Yes, I don’t know, I don’t know what society is either. There were a number of people that lived up on the hill, that were members of the diplomatic corp. weren’t there? Miss Perkins: Diplomatic? Oh, Mr. O’Brien was, but he was the only one. Mr. Gilbert wasn’t and he was a businessman but from the south and that seemed to make all kinds of difference. He was a southerner and married a Miss Gilbert and so came to live in Grand Rapids. They were definitely society people. Interviewer: Why do you say that? Miss Perkins: They sort of ruled things. There were some outstanding people. I remember when Mrs. Wonderly, she is Mrs. Pantlind’s aunt and she lived here on Cherry Street, Just about where we are sitting, no at little farther down. And she had a tea, a reception we called it in those days. She had a reception and she invited four hundred people. Those four hundred people were considered society. I happen to remember especially because there was one lady in Grand Rapids who was very ambitious and really did a great deal for herself and was very well known in many directions. Oh, she wasn’t invited and she wanted to be invited. I remember because I was just, you know a young girl in beginning high school and she came to my mother and wanted my mother to ask Mrs. Wonderly to invite her. Of course, mother wouldn’t, didn’t feel she had any business to do that. But that made an impression upon me. I was so young you know it made a deep impression to think this lady felt that it was so important to be invited to tea at Mrs. Wonderly’s. Interviewer: When you were growing up as a young lady, were there very many parties? Miss Perkins: Oh, all the while, all kinds of parties. Interviewer: What were the parties like? Miss Perkins: There were a great many women’s parties, just luncheons almost every, sometimes about every day in the week you would be going out to luncheon. And you always had your afternoon dresses and so forth and now no one knows what an afternoon dress is now. But we all had them in those days and we very much dressed up when we went out to luncheon. They were very elaborate luncheons with lots of different courses. Life is much simpler than it was in those days. Much simpler. Interviewer: Today life is much simpler? Miss Perkins: You see, it was service; there was always plenty of service in those days. Everybody had their own cook and maid, and entertaining was easy, simple. And people entertained a great deal. Interviewer: Were there very many dances? �14 Miss Perkins: Not so many dances; that was a little more labor. We used to go down to dances at the Pantlind. I was away a good deal of that time. I was abroad and traveling and in college, but when I came home I was so surprised to find these big dances down at the Pantlind. And then they used to have dances in the St. Cecilia Ballroom, when St. Cecilia was first built. It was quite a thing to go to a St. Cecilia dance. Interviewer: How? Miss Perkins: There were ballrooms in people’s houses on the third floor. Interviewer: Did you ever go to any dances that were on those third floor ballrooms? Miss Perkins: Well that, yes, but they were more crowded and they were smaller, you know. Interviewer: Yes, Miss Perkins: But they were fun. Interviewer: Were there any women in business, in those days, that had their own businesses? Miss Perkins: There weren’t many, there weren’t many. One of the first women that went into business was Grace Remington. Now Grace Remington, her father built the big red brick house on Washington Street the one with the pillars in front of it? That was the Remington house. It didn’t have pillars in those days. Mr. Remington was a lumberman and he made a fortune and he had a big house on Cherry Street. He lost that fortune, he made another fortune and built that house on Washington Street. But he lost that money and how I don’t know, but at any rate his daughters went into business for themselves. And Grace Remington formed the first ready to wear dress shop in Grand Rapids. Up until that time everybody employed a seamstress in their home. There dresses were homemade. Oh, there one or two women that’s right there were women that had dressmaker shops where they made dresses to fit you. But Miss Remington had the first shop where dresses were made outside at some factory or other and brought in. Interviewer: Where was her shop? Miss Perkins: It was down on the corner of LaGrave and Fulton Street in that little house. It is still there, I guess. It was a little brick house and it was owned by an old man named Mr. Blake and he had little gold earrings in his ears always and he kept a little candy shop, it was a candy shop there were windows, across the front with shelves with stick candies were in jars. I can remember my father taking me to that shop and said, “Now, Mabel I want you to remember what this little shop looks like, it is a little English shop. It is just like a little shop in an English village”. And he said “You will never see another in Grand Rapid like it.” My father was always doing that, taking, pointing out something that I should remember. And I never forgot that little shop. It was just as quaint as it could be. That was the shop where Grace Remington started her dressmaking store. She brought in ready to be made, the clothes already made from New York. �15 She was killed on that train wreck from New York to Grand Rapids. She and her principal workwoman, her buyer, they had been to New York and they had bought a new supply of clothes and they were coming home when that accident occurred [about January 12, 1919]. You know, Grand Rapids had the last sleeper on the train and it was always filled with Grand Rapids people. And there were a good many Grand Rapids people that were killed in that accident, because the other train plowed right thru that car. So Miss Remington and, I forget the name of that woman that was really her partner and worked with her. They were both killed. Frank Leonard was on that car, Harold Sears. I don’t know of anybody else. Interviewer: What was downtown like when you were growing up? Miss Perkins: It was like any little town, of course Monroe Street was a principal street, but there were all kind of shops, grocery shops now there was no grocery shops, it had bins out front, with things displayed on the street. There were all kinds of different shops. What I remember especially about early Grand Rapids downtown was the specialty shops. Mr. [John P.] Platte for example had an umbrella shop, didn’t sell anything but umbrellas. Beautiful umbrellas down to cheap umbrellas, you know. And then, there was one man that had nothing but beautiful material, Mr. Cole was his name, he had simply exquisite material because you made your own dresses. He had wonderful, wonderful silks and brocades and beautiful buttons and everything that went with them and he just loved his wares himself. He would hold it up, you know and enjoy looking at it just as much as you did. But the trouble was that he bought such expensive things and gradually people began buying their things readymade. And he failed and it was just tragic when he failed and all those beautiful, beautiful things had to go for next to nothing. Broke his heart. There were glove stores and there were all kinds of little shops that specialized in one thing. You could get very beautiful things. Interviewer: Yes, that’s interesting. What about entertainment, was there entertainment downtown? Miss Perkins: Of course, there was the theatre. Interviewer: Tell me about the theatres. Miss Perkins: I’m trying to think of the name of that theatre? Interviewer: Powers? Miss Perkins: Powers, yes, it is now a movie house, of course. Everybody went down there and you went in a hack, that was the way you, it was the most popular way of getting there. Of course if you lived near enough you walked. They brought some very good shows. The shows came from New York, the theatre. We had a lot of Shakespeare. We had excellent, excellent theatres. And then music was given in Hartman’s Hall as a rule. Interviewer: Where was Hartman’s Hall? �16 Miss Perkins: Well, it disappeared from the scene a long time ago. I’ve forgotten just where it was [west side of Lyon between Fouantain and Pearl streets]. I think it was, you know that garage, Shephard Garage I think it was in that neighborhood. Great big hall. Interviewer: What kind of effect do you think the automobile had had on the society? Miss Perkins: Oh it changed it completely. I think the big change in Grand Rapids came with automobile. It dispersed people. People began moving away from the center of the city. They began going away to live in country houses you know. It opened up the world but it also ruined the cities. Interviewer: If you could compare the ages of living which age of living would you say is preferable, the way we live today or the way you lived when you were growing up. Miss Perkins: Well, that is difficult to say, there is a great deal to be said for the world in which I grew up, a great deal is to be said for it. But also it is pretty wonderful now, I think. With all the opportunities that are open for everybody, you travel, everybody ought to be much broader minded then they were, and I think they are. But no better, worse, seems to me we didn’t have the wickedness or crime in my day. Interviewer: Grand Rapids was a safe city. Miss Perkins: Never even locked the front door when I lived on Washington Street, never thought of it. No, of the two ages I’m very glad that a large part of my life lay in the first stage. It was a lovely time, really. Interviewer: Good. Miss Perkins: But now it is more inspiring, it is more exciting, there are so many more opportunities; you can do anything you want really. And I suppose people, of course I was a child and too young to know, but I suppose people were very narrow-minded and thought along certain grooves and didn’t have as much opportunity to live a broader life. No excuse for people being narrow-minded now is there? Interviewer: Okay. INDEX A Aldrich Family · 8 Aldrich, Mrs. · 8 B Barry, Edmund D. · 5 Blake, Mr. · 15 Blodgett Family · 11 Blodgett Hospital · 11 �17 C O Campau, Mr. · 6, 7 Cole, Mr. · 16 O’Brien, Mr. · 13 D P F Pantlind Family · 8, 13, 14 Perkins, Cyrus Edwin (Father) · 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 8, 13, 15 Perkins, Della Antoinette Foote (Mother) · 6, 7, 10, 11, 13, 14 Platte, John P. · 16 Fitzgerald, Edward · 5 Fountain Street School · 2 R Donnelly, Mr. · 5 G Gilbert, Mr. · 13 Grand River Bank · 6 H Harlan, Judge · 2 Hartman’s Hall · 16 J Remington, Grace · 15 S Sears, Harold · 15 St. Cecilia Society · 12, 14 V Vandenberg, Arthur · 7 Vassar College · 9 Jenks, Samuel · 4 W K Withey, Eleanor · 9 Women’s City Club · 11 Wonderly, Mrs. · 13, 14 Knappen, Judge Loyal E. · 5 L Ladies Literary Club · 11 Leonard, Frank · 15 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fb1c894f72540c2c9f1d11a1ca22dde1.mp3 845a43161b84e86e4cecc93d41e4717b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_11Perkins Title A name given to the resource Perkins, Mabel Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Perkins, Mabel Description An account of the resource Mabel Perkins was born on July 26, 1880. She received her B.A. degree from Vassar about 1900. Her mother is considered the founder of the Grand Rapids Art Museum. Miss Perkins was President of the Art Museum which remained her chief interest all her life. She was a noted collector of prints, and gave many of them during her lifetime to the Art Museum. As a girl she developed a strong interest in the works of Albrecht Durer. She died in 1974. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ce86777ac32c9832ac71717aab19e409.jpg 1518aeaea04d11c72ff2d9a101d8147d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ronald Oakes collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Description An account of the resource Collection of photographs by Ronald Oakes, who served in the U.S. Marine Corps during the Vietnam War, and in the U.S. National Guard in the Iraq War. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1968/2005 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/628">Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq war photographs (RHC-80)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Veterans Photographs Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80 Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80_Oakes-Iraq-viewofperimeternearjunkpile Title A name given to the resource FOB Q-West perimeter consisting of a chain-link fence topped with barbwire backed up by a dirt berm Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 United States--History, Military United States. National Guard Military life Soldiers Photographs Description An account of the resource FOB Q-West perimeter consisting of a chain-link fence topped with barbwire backed up by a dirt berm. Notice the dump on the left consisting of destroyed Iraqi vehicles. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq photographs (RHC-80) Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Iraq War Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/83b92eb7c9e58b5431d9bdaa7f27c127.jpg 621868d21c8f80159eb8d5cd393b9000 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ronald Oakes collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Description An account of the resource Collection of photographs by Ronald Oakes, who served in the U.S. Marine Corps during the Vietnam War, and in the U.S. National Guard in the Iraq War. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1968/2005 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/628">Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq war photographs (RHC-80)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Veterans Photographs Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80 Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80_Oakes-Iraq-SFCOakes1sttripMosel Title A name given to the resource Oakes standing in front of a Blackhawk helicopter Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 United States--History, Military United States. National Guard Military life Soldiers Photographs Description An account of the resource Oakes standing in front of a Blackhawk helicopter. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq photographs (RHC-80) Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Iraq War Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7477081020514facf189d392f8a20608.jpg 4681bae36883ab0e6971997d8deff678 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ronald Oakes collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Description An account of the resource Collection of photographs by Ronald Oakes, who served in the U.S. Marine Corps during the Vietnam War, and in the U.S. National Guard in the Iraq War. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1968/2005 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/628">Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq war photographs (RHC-80)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Veterans Photographs Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80 Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80_Oakes-Iraq-OIF3007 Title A name given to the resource Interior of a HUMVEE on convoy duty Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 United States--History, Military United States. National Guard Military life Soldiers Photographs Description An account of the resource Interior of a HUMVEE on convoy duty. If ambushed, the men on the side of the ambush were expected to crawl across the equipment and exit through the opposite side of the vehicle. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq photographs (RHC-80) Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Iraq War Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e6c8c35341079f3921ef1c627b757709.jpg 6f7022a9e3bb727832bd3b2356d346b9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ronald Oakes collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Description An account of the resource Collection of photographs by Ronald Oakes, who served in the U.S. Marine Corps during the Vietnam War, and in the U.S. National Guard in the Iraq War. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1968/2005 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/628">Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq war photographs (RHC-80)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Veterans Photographs Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80 Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80_Oakes-Iraq-mercenariesfromFIGI Title A name given to the resource Mercenaries from in the parking lot of FOB Q-West only mess hall Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 United States--History, Military United States. National Guard Military life Soldiers Photographs Description An account of the resource Mercenaries from in the parking lot of FOB Q-West only mess hall. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq photographs (RHC-80) Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Iraq War Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d0500785ca16ee770dea3aedd129d28a.jpg 3ab4fea0593ddd7e650f2a4d498da6bc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ronald Oakes collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Description An account of the resource Collection of photographs by Ronald Oakes, who served in the U.S. Marine Corps during the Vietnam War, and in the U.S. National Guard in the Iraq War. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1968/2005 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/628">Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq war photographs (RHC-80)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Veterans Photographs Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80 Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80_Oakes-Iraq-lookingoutupramp Title A name given to the resource Looking up the ramp that lead down to the underground power plant at FOB Q-West Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 United States--History, Military United States. National Guard Military life Soldiers Photographs Description An account of the resource Looking up the ramp that lead down to the underground power plant at FOB Q-West. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq photographs (RHC-80) Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Iraq War Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5eda86a64377d75f65e62edd7fffac4e.jpg f917f8a840996385d35e9fdbd1c295a5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ronald Oakes collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Description An account of the resource Collection of photographs by Ronald Oakes, who served in the U.S. Marine Corps during the Vietnam War, and in the U.S. National Guard in the Iraq War. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1968/2005 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/628">Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq war photographs (RHC-80)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Veterans Photographs Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80 Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80_Oakes-Iraq-insideC130 Title A name given to the resource Interior of the crashed S.F. C-130 Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 United States--History, Military United States. National Guard Military life Soldiers Photographs Description An account of the resource Interior of the crashed S.F. C-130 after engineers had blown the nose off to destroy all the sensitive equipment. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq photographs (RHC-80) Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Iraq War Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c4135617d858349a8f584e85a6607804.jpg 6c96bf24afdd822e39d1c9dd366ea0d9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ronald Oakes collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Description An account of the resource Collection of photographs by Ronald Oakes, who served in the U.S. Marine Corps during the Vietnam War, and in the U.S. National Guard in the Iraq War. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1968/2005 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/628">Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq war photographs (RHC-80)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Veterans Photographs Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80 Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80_Oakes-Iraq-IAarmedtoyata Title A name given to the resource Gun truck from the Iraqi national guard Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 United States--History, Military United States. National Guard Military life Soldiers Photographs Description An account of the resource Gun truck from the Iraqi national guard. January 2005. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2005-01 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq photographs (RHC-80) Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Iraq War Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5dceffa16768a367915841a01b140161.jpg f2328e6d328f7db520955e6b81b04599 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ronald Oakes collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Description An account of the resource Collection of photographs by Ronald Oakes, who served in the U.S. Marine Corps during the Vietnam War, and in the U.S. National Guard in the Iraq War. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1968/2005 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/628">Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq war photographs (RHC-80)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Veterans Photographs Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80 Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80_Oakes-Iraq-golfdriverangeonFOBE Title A name given to the resource Golf driving range the men constructed on FOB Q-West Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 United States--History, Military United States. National Guard Military life Soldiers Photographs Description An account of the resource Golf driving range the men constructed on FOB Q-West. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq photographs (RHC-80) Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Iraq War Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0c5617f85e2c2ef16dd481083e7cd2f1.jpg fecd04b3213a8c2c972dd4e24ba38419 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ronald Oakes collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Description An account of the resource Collection of photographs by Ronald Oakes, who served in the U.S. Marine Corps during the Vietnam War, and in the U.S. National Guard in the Iraq War. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1968/2005 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/628">Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq war photographs (RHC-80)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Veterans Photographs Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80 Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80_Oakes-Iraq-farback Title A name given to the resource Crash S.F. C-130 at FOB Q-West Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 United States--History, Military United States. National Guard Military life Soldiers Photographs Description An account of the resource Crash S.F. C-130 at FOB Q-West. In the foreground is the hole that the plane hit upon land with debris from the plane still in the hole. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq photographs (RHC-80) Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Iraq War Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8bbf483c6b38259a74799915fb477796.jpg 4c910609326a6a28b0efae21dcb8a2e6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ronald Oakes collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Description An account of the resource Collection of photographs by Ronald Oakes, who served in the U.S. Marine Corps during the Vietnam War, and in the U.S. National Guard in the Iraq War. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1968/2005 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/628">Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq war photographs (RHC-80)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Veterans Photographs Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80 Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80_Oakes-Iraq-cityofMosul Title A name given to the resource City of Mosul and Mosul Air Base from the air Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 United States--History, Military United States. National Guard Military life Soldiers Photographs Description An account of the resource City of Mosul and Mosul Air Base from the air. The airfield is in the middle ground with the city in the background. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq photographs (RHC-80) Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Iraq War Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2e99c2f6031db8903e6bd7e80ae43241.jpg 4a59b7af693f97ca6fc57c1e4b40c41f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ronald Oakes collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Description An account of the resource Collection of photographs by Ronald Oakes, who served in the U.S. Marine Corps during the Vietnam War, and in the U.S. National Guard in the Iraq War. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1968/2005 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/628">Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq war photographs (RHC-80)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Veterans Photographs Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80 Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80_Oakes-Iraq-back Title A name given to the resource Crashed Special Forces C-130 on the FOB Q-West runway Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 United States--History, Military United States. National Guard Military life Soldiers Photographs Description An account of the resource Crashed Special Forces C-130 on the FOB Q-West runway on December 31, 2004. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2004-12-31 Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq photographs (RHC-80) Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Iraq War Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/555e3b0ca56e534b759a87e3aba57198.jpg 884e43e7af280987e8975e64a82a5f55 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ronald Oakes collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Description An account of the resource Collection of photographs by Ronald Oakes, who served in the U.S. Marine Corps during the Vietnam War, and in the U.S. National Guard in the Iraq War. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1968/2005 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/628">Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq war photographs (RHC-80)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Veterans Photographs Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80 Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80_Oakes-Iraq-armoreduptrks Title A name given to the resource Armored vehicles preparing for a convoy from FOB Q-West Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 United States--History, Military United States. National Guard Military life Soldiers Photographs Description An account of the resource Armored vehicles preparing for a convoy from FOB Q-West. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq photographs (RHC-80) Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Iraq War Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d6fd5223c207398c7f2df0347e91c57b.jpg fb0c8875f4a6252bea0c11f12cb07196 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ronald Oakes collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Description An account of the resource Collection of photographs by Ronald Oakes, who served in the U.S. Marine Corps during the Vietnam War, and in the U.S. National Guard in the Iraq War. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1968/2005 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/628">Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq war photographs (RHC-80)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Veterans Photographs Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80 Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80_Oakes-Iraq-Apacheinflight1 Title A name given to the resource AH-64 Apache flying into FOB Q-West in Iraq Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 United States--History, Military United States. National Guard Military life Soldiers Photographs Description An account of the resource AH-64 Apache flying into FOB Q-West in Iraq. Notice the consentina wire and the sand berm constituting the perimeter of the base. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq photographs (RHC-80) Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Iraq War Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/75a519cc0762f7ef64bfa2afdd4d6bbe.jpg 09eea381db1dcec55e8331fa56a3e1df Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ronald Oakes collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Description An account of the resource Collection of photographs by Ronald Oakes, who served in the U.S. Marine Corps during the Vietnam War, and in the U.S. National Guard in the Iraq War. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1968/2005 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/628">Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq war photographs (RHC-80)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Veterans Photographs Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80 Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80_Oakes-Iraq-apachehovering Title A name given to the resource AH-64 Apache hovering at an Apache refueling point at FOB Diamondback. (Mosul) Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 United States--History, Military United States. National Guard Military life Soldiers Photographs Description An account of the resource AH-64 Apache hovering at an Apache refueling point at FOB Diamondback. (Mosul) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq photographs (RHC-80) Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Iraq War Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/43bacdf27b502dcb5df570acc7eea0bb.jpg 97aab9a0baf81bf6b606f8b8aa9dad29 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Ronald Oakes collection Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Description An account of the resource Collection of photographs by Ronald Oakes, who served in the U.S. Marine Corps during the Vietnam War, and in the U.S. National Guard in the Iraq War. Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1968/2005 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/628">Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq war photographs (RHC-80)</a> Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 Vietnam War, 1961-1975 Veterans Photographs Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80 Language A language of the resource eng Still Image A static visual representation. Examples include paintings, drawings, graphic designs, plans and maps. Recommended best practice is to assign the type Text to images of textual materials. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-80_Oakes-Iraq-advonpicstures017 Title A name given to the resource Inside the living quarters at Camp Virginia, Kuwait, December 2004 Subject The topic of the resource Iraq War, 2003-2011 United States--History, Military United States. National Guard Military life Soldiers Photographs Description An account of the resource Inside the living quarters at Camp Virginia, Kuwait, December 2004. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Oakes, Ronald Type The nature or genre of the resource Image Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Ronald Oakes Vietnam and Iraq photographs (RHC-80) Relation A related resource Veterans History Project interviews, RHC-27 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant Iraq War Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource image/jpeg Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2004-12 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives