804 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4ab31ef1152394ddb36fd36e42d76503.pdf 503d85b7914624e0c5f9f69bab65e73f PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Miss Elizabeth Welter Wilson Interviewed on June 5, 1975 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape # 51 (1:19:27) Biographical Information Elizabeth Welter Wilson was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on 4 April 1921. She is the daughter of Henry Dunning Wilson and Marie Ethel Welter who were married in Grand Rapids on 12 June 1920. Elizabeth currently (2010) resides in Manhattan. Henry D. Wilson was born 4 May 1892 in Grand Rapids, the son of Charles Moseman Wilson and Jane Wadsworth Dunning. Henry died on 16 June 1948 in Grand Rapids. Marie E. Welter was born 19 August 1890 in Grand Rapids, the daughter of Ferdinand Welter and Elizabeth Ewing Muir. She died on 23 November 1980 in Grand Rapids. Family members are buried in Oak Hill Cemetery, Grand Rapids. ___________ Interviewer: I am testing at this point. I am Lee Hutchins and I am going to interview, shortly my second cousin Elizabeth Welter Wilson, who has become a rather well known actress in her own right and has been in the theatre world ever since graduating high school. I am going to stop and see if we are…. This recording is being made at the home of her brother Charles Wilson, a new home built within the last few years on the Thornapple River, not far from the village of Caledonia, somewhere in the Alaska area. This is the first time I have ever been out here and it is a lovely day and it is the afternoon of June the fifth, a Thursday. We have had a delightful lunch prepared by Charles‟s wife, Sally. We have toured the house, met the dog, and saw the swimming pool. And are now on a lower level, I guess you would call it the family room, Elizabeth is still upstairs getting ready. We will start in just a minute. Before she arrives, I would like to explain that we were both brought up in the same neighborhood on North Lafayette in Grand Rapids. She is about three years older than I. The children of the respective families, my sister and myself and her brother and younger sister, we were all close as children and saw a great deal of each other. Both of us were brought up in Victorian mansions that our grandfathers had, each purchased in the late nineteen twenties. Elizabeth‟s family moved out of their house in about nineteen forty-four or five, I would guess, and my family has stayed on, still at the same address, one-eleven Lafayette north east. Elizabeth‟s old home was turned into first, it was turned into a radio station WGRD and is now the office or I guess you would call the headquarters of the architectural firm of Steenwyk and Thrall in Grand Rapids. �2 Yesterday afternoon at my mother‟s house in Grand Rapids, Elizabeth was interviewed by the editor of Accent (Grand Rapids), Jim Mencarelli. He obviously had insights into Elizabeth‟s profession which I don‟t possess because I am not particularly a theatre buff; but he did conduct an interview and the results will appear in the July issue of Accent (Grand Rapids). I am going to talk about or ask Elizabeth to talk about some of the topics he talked about yesterday afternoon. Probably the same questions but probably not in the same way and I may add or subtract as we go along. Interviewer: And now Elizabeth has arrived on stage as it were, and put this about out to here which is the right distance and start by asking some questions, the same that he asked in your interview of yesterday. And we will start by asking you where you were born and where and approximately when? Elizabeth: I was born in Grand Rapids approximately, I am going to tell the truth, Lee, how about that? That will be a first. Interviewer: Why not. Elizabeth: Nineteen twenty-one in Blodgett Memorial Hospital on April fourth; and there you are. Interviewer: What are your first memories of going to school? Where did you go for primary school, for instance? Elizabeth: My first memories of school are not really of grade school or primary school. My grandmother, Mrs. Charles Wilson, I think she was responsible for this, she knew a fascinating lady that was teaching French; it was prekindergarten school and I think our mutual cousin Mrs. Seymour Wilson, had something to do with this prekindergarten school. At any rate, when I was three and four I went to this prekindergarten school. Lee, I actually started grade school in Detroit, Michigan, I think I am right about this, now wait a minute, we moved to Detroit, yes I believe that‟s true. It‟s strange that I should be unsure of… But I think it was the kindergarten and first grade was in Detroit, we moved to Detroit in the late - middle thirties, no that‟s not right. Interviewer: You moved back from Detroit. Elizabeth: I don‟t know where I started school, but I know I spent most of my primary years at the Fountain Street School. Interviewer: In Grand Rapids. Elizabeth: In Grand Rapids, and after that, we will have to clear that up, I am not completely sure. I know I went to school in Detroit for at least two years, and I‟ve always been under the impression that I started school there; somehow we will have to figure that one out. I went thru �3 the sixth grade at Fountain Street School and instead of going directly to Central Junior High school I went to Marywood Academy for three years and entered Central High School in the tenth grade. I finished, I graduated in nineteen forty from Central High School. So that‟s plenty of information. Interviewer: One of the questions that he brought up early in the interview yesterday, which I thought quite interesting, was your appearing, attending summer school at the Westminster Presbyterian Church in Grand Rapids. Anyway, it was not a part of your regular schooling. Elizabeth: Yes… Interviewer: You took part in a pageant. I wish you would repeat that again. Elizabeth: One summer when we were living at thirty-five North Lafayette Avenue, we attended the Sunday school summer school at the Presbyterian Church. We were members of Park Congregational Church, but our grandmother belonged to the Presbyterian Church. I was eight years old; I remember how old I was. At the end of the six weeks the minister came and said we are going to do a pageant and the tallest person in the room will play the American flag. For whatever reason but they had decided that was what it was. I always was very self-conscious about my height. I am almost five feet, ten inches tall now and was almost five ten when I was twelve years old. I don‟t know how tall I was at eight, but I was very, very tall and while I was growing up very self conscious about it. But any rate, he said you, Elizabeth Wilson will play the American flag, and that was that. Well, we rehearsed the program and we did it and first of all, I had to recite the Declaration of Independence, dressed as the flag if you can imagine. And when it was over, I got it all mixed up, all backwards, I was so humiliated. Somehow, when I went out by the church, a young girl, woman came up to me and said, “You were very good.” And it flashed across my head that must have been the first time that anybody ever paid me a compliment, really. I don‟t know why she did because I can‟t imagine. But I thought at any rate that is kind of nice. Interviewer: That was the beginning… Elizabeth: That was the beginning, Lee; the start of it, then. Interviewer: That was the start of it, in a real sense. Elizabeth: It kind of stuck in my head, well what a strange experience it was, it hadn‟t been a particularly happy experience, I‟d forgotten the lines, I hadn‟t been very happy about being chosen as the tallest person to play the American flag, but there was if you will, there was something psychological about the way she said it and my reaction. Well, the warm waves of praise. I just lapped them up. Interviewer: Alright, let‟s pause for just a second. �4 Elizabeth: Alright. Interviewer: So, after your initial performance at the Presbyterian Church, you obviously took another step or two along the way, what was your next experience in the theatre in this area, Elizabeth? Elizabeth: Well, Lee, there were a number of people when I was nine and ten years old, who had a very, very strong influence on my life. Your mother for one, Mrs. Lee Wilson Hutchins for one, my cousin Helen, and I will get into that in a minute, but I would like to tell what she meant to me and how she effected my wanting to be an actress. But when I was nine and ten years old, I was very involved in Park Church and there were quite an extraordinary woman named Mary Einecke she was married to our musical director Harold Einecke. She had been an actress… Interviewer: That is spelled E-i-n-e-c-k-e Elizabeth: I am not sure. Interviewer: Well, that‟s close enough. Yes. Elizabeth: She had been an actress, she was Russian. She married Harold Einecke and he was a very fine musician at Park Church and they had a very fine reputation there and built the choirs and I was very much a part of the choirs. I expect that experience, too. I started about when I was nine or ten; I was in the Girl‟s Choir, then I was in the Chapel Choir when I was in my teens. I was in the Park Church choirs for about ten years, and Harold and Mary Einecke were very theatrical. She was a darling woman and because she had been a professional actress she meant a great deal to me. There was also another woman in the church who was named Elsie Stroop who was secretarial minister who was very encouraging, even at ten and eleven years old I‟d begin to evident the fact of wanting to be an actress, I don‟t know. Then I went to Marywood Academy as I said earlier, and there was a woman there a Miss Buck, who was the drama teacher. But, I must tell the Joseph Jefferson story, Lee because I think it is so interesting. Years ago, a hundred years ago perhaps, there was a famous American actor named Joseph Jefferson and his great claim to fame was playing Rip Van Winkle and his understudy was on tour one night stands, or one day stand as it was. And here we were twelve and thirteen years old and we did a couple of scenes from the Washington Irving book, I don‟t know who wrote the play Rip Van Winkle and then Joseph Jefferson‟s understudy played the old man Rip Van Winkle and I was asked to be, not really asked to be just part of his little family in this Washington Irving play with Joseph Jefferson‟s understudy. This is just a part of history that tickles me. I don‟t know, I‟m sure he goes way, way back maybe even to Booth‟s time. Edwin Booth and John Wilkes [Booth] go, go way back. Well, that‟s sort of a touch with history. Then when I left Marywood Academy, I went to Central, and there was a very strong-willed woman named Dorothy Sonke, a very remarkable lady and she was most encouraging. Interviewer: Sonke is spelled S-O-N-K-E, I believe. �5 Elizabeth: Yes, I do believe. Dorothy Sonke right from the beginning, I don‟t know how it happened but when I entered Central in the tenth grade, I had a great long soliloquy, by that time I skipped two teachers that I studied with in Grand Rapids that I had, Camilla Boon and Myrtle Koon Cherryman who had incredibly strong influences on me. They were both interesting women, and I do want to talk about them. Myrtle Koon Cherryman was a legend in Grand Rapids and a remarkable lady and I had been studying with them and I took that much more seriously than my own school work, Lee. You remember I use to have to come to you to get French lessons for me. I was so much more interested in my dramatic lessons and I studied every week with Camilla Boon or Mrs. Cherryman. I used to have readings every week and I use to memorize these darn things, each week. And that is how I learned to memorize from doing these each week. Now, I can memorize things very quickly, and I use to write these things down and memorize these things, at any rate, I came to Central. And so I know this long soliloquy and she was so impressed, Lee. She was so impressed because this new person coming to Central knew this long thing. I don‟t even know what it was. She took me in front of the graduating class and had me give this long speech and they were most impressed. Of course, I was terribly pleased and from then on I got the lead in the senior play, I‟ve forgotten now what I did in the junior play, but I directed. I was the only student in Central that was ever asked to direct, it was called an Acting Project, a great Vaudeville show. That is what it was called, The Vaudeville Show, I directed that. By the time I left Central and started going into the summer stock theatre, I felt that I had done quite a lot. Interviewer: What was the senior class play? Elizabeth: Pride and Prejudice. Interviewer: And who were some of the other actors? Elizabeth: David Idema played my father. Let‟s see David Ware, I believe, I‟m not sure about my brother. Alex Dillingham played opposite me, my best friend in the senior class was Evelyn Klein, she was in it; she played my mother. Betty Williams was in it, she lived here for a long time, oh gracious, let‟s see. Interviewer: Well, that‟s a good number of people. Elizabeth: Yes, we played for three performances. Of course, Pride and Prejudice is such a lovely story. I remember, my grandmother Mrs. Charles (Angeline) Wilson, came to see one of the performances. She was, you know she was one of the most critical people in our lives. She had a great deal of musical experience; she lived and studied in Europe. The most serious critic in my young life. When Nana Angeline said to me, we called her Nana, in her strict way, “You were good.” that was, well …. Interviewer: That was a high complement. �6 Elizabeth: Indeed, indeed! Interviewer: Go on, what was the next step? Elizabeth: Well the next step, I started to get involved with the Civic Theatre in Grand Rapids in nineteen thirty-nine and forty, and Bertram Yarborough again, a remarkable man with professional experience. He asked me, rather invited me to go to his theatre on Nantucket, Massachusetts to be an apprentice; that was in nineteen forty. I had graduated Central in nineteen forty, and Lee, that meant so much to me. Now, Lee we had to pay, you just didn‟t, because for some reason in those days there were lots of summer theatres. Of course, all the summer theatres had apprentices that were nothing but workhorses. I certainly expected to act, but lots of them never did. Some summer theatres were notoriously corrupt, they would have dozens and dozens of apprentices, and they would pay two and three hundred dollars for the summer and never got to do anything but carry scenery and work like dogs. But I went to Nantucket, and the whole family made the trip because it was the second year of the New York World‟s Fair. So my father, Henry Wilson and my mother and my brother, Charles and my sister Mary and I got in our car and we drove. We stopped in Williamsburg, and New York, then they took me to Nantucket. I spent the summer in Nantucket. And after the summer in Nantucket, well after the summer I got to play three parts in the plays and it was a very good company. And they were all outstanding people. I can‟t tell you the names of the plays that I was in, but one of the great thrills was meeting Katherine Cornell, who was my idol. As I was growing up, I read her book, I [Always] Wanted to be an Actress. She was my idol, and she lived on Martha‟s Vineyard and she was a great friend of the two men who were the producers of this theatre. And she came over one day and Lawrence Olivier and Vivian Lee were playing in New York at that time, Romeo and Juliet and they paid a visit to the island. I didn‟t meet them, but I remember seeing them from a distance on the lawn, thinking oh my goodness! But that was a very important summer. Then, I came back to Grand Rapids and went to Junior College. And then the war. I remember one of the things about Nantucket, it isn‟t a very theatrical thing, but the submarines were encircling the island then I didn‟t know if they were American or German, but I remember sitting in the restaurant on Nantucket and you could hear those great depth charges; the submarines during World War Two that close and you could hear these big thunking things exploding in the Atlantic Ocean off the coast of Nantucket Island. It was very frightening to say the least. Interviewer: Then eventually you got involved with Gerald Hanchett and his sister Elizabeth in their… what would you call that? How would you describe that? Elizabeth: Well, then I came back and went to Junior College. And then the next summer of forty-one, there was a summer theatre in upper New York, [not] New York Michigan, I think Lee it was... Interviewer: Was it Onekama or Portage? �7 Elizabeth: Oh, dear….There was a woman who was very… Elvira Baker, who was with the Civic Theatre, and Robert Cunningham, Bob Cunningham who was head of the drama department at Junior College; they were all involved. And Amy Lewis, remember her? Amy Lewis was one of the leading lights in the Civic Theatre, and she was a charming actress, a charming woman. In this little theatre, up along the coast, Lee. The Onekama area, whatever the name. Anyway, we spent the summer there and then I came back and went to Junior College again and it was at that point I got involved in this theatre, now then there were two people in Grand Rapids; the Hanchett family H-A-N-C-H-E-T-T, Elizabeth and Gerald Hanchett, they were brother and sister and they had been very involved in the theatre in New York, and they had produced revues. Just a minute Lee, I think we have to turn it off…. Interviewer: Sorry for the interruption, Elizabeth was called to the long distance telephone. Interviewer: We were just talking about the Hanchetts and the Playhouse, or whatever you want to call it, the Art Center which they ran in the old Hanchett house down on College Avenue. I‟d like to add a little footnote to the story at this point. That house which is still standing is the house that is immediately south of the Voigt house at one-fifteen College southeast. It is a notable structure, actually the Hanchetts didn‟t build it, but they moved in around the turn of the century. And Mr. Hanchett, the father of Gerald and Elizabeth was the president of the Grand Rapids Street Railway Company, and at one point they were very, very well to do, if not rich people. These children were that were contemporaries of my parents, they were very gifted and unusual people. Now, Elizabeth you go ahead: Elizabeth: Well, they were. They produced a play and some revues with Shirley Booth a very talented actress; they produced some revues that she was in called Sunday Nights at Nine. Elizabeth Hanchett and Gerald Hanchett played a great part in my life; they were very kind to me. I went into their school on College Avenue; I was an apprentice in a way. I worked part time. I was going to Junior College in nineteen forty-three, no that‟s not right, I think it was nineteen forty-two, yes. Because it was the subsequent summer that I went to the Barter Theatre. At any rate, I taught school. I went around and taught; I wasn‟t qualified at all but I taught children speech and readings and elocution. They had made arrangements in the various grade schools all over Grand Rapids, to pay for my tuition at this Art School on College Avenue, I did this. There was a man who taught, named Alex Evoie who taught in this school. And this school was in this house that Lee just described. There was a beautiful big room in this house and in the back there was this huge room that we used as our theatre room. The class wasn‟t large, twenty or thirty students, but they managed to get very good faculty. They had a dance instructor and a speech instructor. What they were trying to do was have a theatre school in Grand Rapids, and it was called the Arts Center, the Theatre Arts Center. And that is what they were trying to do. There just wasn‟t enough need for it in Grand Rapids and it didn‟t work out. At any rate, it was through Elizabeth and Gerald Hanchett that I met Alex E-v-o-i-e, and it was thru him that I heard about the Barter Theatre in Abingdon, Virginia. And in nineteen forty-two, my life really started. That‟s really true. Because in nineteen forty-two, I went down there, and again it was as an �8 apprentice, my father had to pay; because the war was going on hot and heavy then in nineteen forty-two. They wanted boys; there were no men around of course. The boys didn‟t have to pay but the girls always had to pay to be an apprentice. I think it was something like forty-five dollars a week; that was a lot of money. That was room and board, but even so it was a lot of money. I don‟t know where we got it, because we certainly did not have very much. I went down there and started out. Now I wasn‟t sure, that I really was on the right track, because up to that point I hadn‟t made any real progress. No one had really praised me that seriously and I was always very nervous about it. I remember when we did the play at Central, I was terribly unhappy about one performance and was uneasy about it. Robert Porterfield, who ran the Barter Theatre, it was called the Barter Theatre because during the Depression when people didn‟t have money, they brought foodstuffs to this famous theatre, brought food to the box office instead of cash. Eleanor Roosevelt, Mrs. Franklin Delano Roosevelt was very largely responsible for getting this theatre on the map. It was on the cover of Life magazine, it was a very famous theatre because of this clever gimmick of people bringing foodstuffs to the box office. When I got there, they weren‟t doing this so much anymore. Robert Porterfield, who was a wonderful man, a unique man and a great help to me, he use to say that the actors ate the box office, which is what we did and we had some really splendid meals. Lots of vegetables, I might add. But anyway, I went down there and in that company, Lee, in nineteen forty-two were some remarkable talents, Patricia Neal, right fresh from Knoxville, hadn‟t even graduated from high school. And a wonderful actress name Margaret Phillips, who isn‟t too well known now but I think she was a genius and she made a great career in the forties on Broadway. She went on, but she was too sensitive. Anyway, there were lots and lots of people in that group. And in that summer, I had to either make it or not, I remember the point of being given some good parts and I just said to myself, alright Lizzie you‟re either going to do it or you are not. By golly and I am not bragging, but by the end of the summer I had not only established myself, and I say this openly but as the best actress in that group I had gotten a scholarship to the Neighborhood Playhouse in New York, which was really something to get. I really felt like a changed person. I don‟t know what happened to me, Lee, but I just won over my fears and just had decided, it was purely emotional. I found a way of working and I remember coming back to Grand Rapids that fall and I knew I just was different now. Then I went to New York in the fall of nineteen fortytwo and went to the Neighborhood Playhouse. And of course, that is another whole story, because there it is exciting. There for the first time little Lizzie Wilson from Grand Rapids, Michigan met the greatest acting teacher in America, Sanford Meisner who taught the Stanislavski method, and is acknowledged by any one that knows anything at all and Martha Graham who was America‟s greatest dancer. And those are the two people that I studied with for two years, so you can imagine. Interviewer: I would like to backtrack for a moment because you mentioned my mother much earlier in this interview and it was recalled to me that my mother took you and me to Detroit. Would you like to continue and if able will you date the year for me? Will you tell about our experience there? �9 Elizabeth: Well, Lee lived a block and a half from my house. Interviewer: Less than that. Elizabeth: A short block. We really grew up together, his sister and my brother and sister. And I spent a great deal of time in their home, for some reason I don‟t know why his mother liked me, and she used to go to Detroit which was quite an occasion. In about nineteen thirty-seven, I think Lee it was nineteen thirty-seven, the three of us would drive, I think it was a convertible too, we would drive to Detroit and go to the theatre. And the first play I ever saw in my life was Walter Huston in Knickerbocker Holiday. Interviewer: You mean legitimate. Elizabeth: The first legitimate play, first live actors. Interviewer: What was the name of the play? Elizabeth: Knickerbocker Holiday! Interviewer: Oh yes, Knickerbocker Holiday. Elizabeth: And Lee‟s mother would travel to New York, and that was such a thing. And the New York Times was always in your home and it was also in my grandmother‟s home. That made an incredible impression on me, I used to read the theatre section; I used to devour what was happening in New York. New York was the place. Interviewer: I guess, it still is. Elizabeth: Well, that‟s not quite true, it‟s changed. Interviewer: You started to talk about the Neighborhood Playhouse. Elizabeth: Well, I was fortunate to go to the Neighborhood Playhouse for two years. I can‟t even begin to tell you what an experience that was. But it was very important to me to know those people and those two years of study in New York, and meeting people was so interesting and exciting and stimulated me so, gave me such confidence. Both Martha Graham and Sandy Meisner were very complimentary and helped me and worked very hard with me. And the point is they were also very, very hard on me too. But Sandy said to me you are good and you are going to have to be disciplined. He worked very hard and was very serious, and so Martha also worked very hard, and it wasn‟t easy, wasn‟t easy at all. Interviewer: Forgive another slight digression, I couldn‟t help but think, Betty Ford, Gerald Ford‟s wife, was also a pupil of Martha Graham, did you ever know Betty in Grand Rapids? Elizabeth: No, I never knew the Fords. �10 Interviewer: She was dancing, but I didn‟t know if your paths had ever crossed. Elizabeth: No, we never did, which was strange. Interviewer: But you both studied under Martha Graham. I‟m going to shut it off for a second. Interviewer: Before we continue with your career, onward and upward through the ages, I thought we could talk a few minutes about you coming from Grand Rapids, which isn‟t a big city and is belittled from time to time, even though we have managed to produce a President of the United States. When you arrived in New York City from Grand Rapids, did you feel you were coming from a very provincial background? Elizabeth: No, Lee, I don‟t know why but let me put it this way, I don‟t know why but I always wanted to live in New York. I never wanted to go to California. I never wanted to be a movie actress. There is an irony in that because I have made more movies and done more movies than I‟ve done plays, and I„ve spent more time in California. I was never interested in the movies, I always wanted to be on the stage, and I had this thing and I don‟t know where it came from, about living in New York, and being in the east. Now, I„ve always loved small towns, and when I left Grand Rapids, I think there was a period when I thought it was pretty hokey, and hicky, pretty small town and I in my twenties and thirties when I would come home, I would sort of look down my nose, at certain thing around town. Or if I was with people, they would say it must be so wonderful in New York. There is certainly a lot to be said for living in a large city. The point is I couldn‟t have had a career here, and I couldn‟t have done what I have done, if I had stayed here. But it is totally different here, but I always had a great feeling for the town. Now, if I had that feeling because, I had a very happy childhood, let‟s face it and I had so many people here that I loved so much and I had a big family and lots and lots of relatives so I had such a warm spot in my heart for this place, Michigan, you see. Oh sure, I think, when you are growing up and you go away to school, I bet you felt it too when you went away to Harvard. First you think oh well, that little town, but it looks better and better to me now. With the population explosion, I am anxious to come back to a few free acres. Interviewer: Do you think it is more interesting place when you do come back, as you have more recently? You have been coming back more frequently, I wonder if you have noticed significant change? Elizabeth: I can‟t tell, because I don‟t see that many people, Lee. When I come here, I have a fairly superficial look at the town. If I lived here and sort of got into the swim and was part of the community, then I could make a fair appraisal of that. When I came here the last year a great deal, because my mother had been ill, you are practically the only the person outside of the family that I see. Most of my friends have moved away. But I think, I have changed and I think I appreciate your family and my family and just what the place is like more. I am not prejudiced about small town living, because I live outside of New York. �11 Interviewer: Okay, I think it about time to turn the cartridge over. SIDE TWO of Tape #51 Interviewer: Elizabeth has stepped out of the room for just a moment and I thought I would fill in with a few remarks of my own. I have lived most of my life in Grand Rapids except for the three years at the Ashville School near Ashville, North Carolina. It was the tenth, eleventh and twelfth grades. It was the school that my father had attended. I graduated in nineteen forty-two, he graduated in nineteen fourteen and while I was at the school he was elected as a trustee of the school and he was always interested in the school and talked a great deal about it and I listened as a small boy. And he had no strong feeling about where I was going to college. He went to the University of Wisconsin, where I think he got a good education. He didn‟t have the feeling about Wisconsin that he had about Asheville. So when I was about to graduate from Asheville school, I hadn‟t made up my mind where I wanted to go to college. One group of friends were interested in going to the University of Michigan, they were mostly Grand Rapids boys that I had known, Dick Steketee, Monroe Tolliver, and Steve Bryant. I think, I am missing somebody but that is pretty much it. And then I had some other friends who were going to Harvard, Jack Darryl, Robert Sposum from Cleveland. A friend that had dropped out of Asheville, but has since become a very good friend, Matt Clark. He didn‟t finish at Asheville but he joined us at Harvard and there was another very close friend David Ketcham who came from Cohasset, Massachusetts. I finally decided I wanted to go with them, I thought was closer with them and had many more interests in common than I had with my Grand Rapids friends. Then I had the advantages of an accelerated, or perhaps the disadvantages of an accelerated college experience, because I went all year round for three years and graduated in nineteen forty-five but as a member of the class of nineteen forty-six. I worked after that starting around the first of January or the second I suppose, of January of nineteen forty-six until October nineteen fifty when I journeyed to California where I stayed for four and half years. I won‟t go into all that now, because this is not an interview about me, but I lived in the city of San Francisco most of those years that I lived out there in California. Of course, I got another point of view about Grand Rapids, frankly I was always very torn when I lived out there because I loved San Francisco but I also knew where my roots were and for family reasons, I returned to Grand Rapids and have lived here, with the exception of two years on the eastern side of the state in the village of Clarkston, ever since. Now my cousin has returned, and we will continue. Elizabeth, where were we? Elizabeth: Let‟s see. Well, Lee, I think we‟d come to the end of the Neighborhood Playhouse, those two years at the Neighborhood Playhouse, we were going over things so fast, Lee. I could talk about those two years, for a long time. I should also say, between those years at the Playhouse I went to a stock company in Cape May, New Jersey, that was a very important summer, I went as an apprentice. I didn‟t have to pay that summer but in the middle of the summer, the leading woman had to go back to New York. And the manager of the theatre said I would like you to be the leading woman. It sounds a little fancier than it was, the actual fact was �12 the producer was a well, a penny pincher, rather than paying transportation for anybody to come back from New York to Cape May, New Jersey, he just turned around and pointed at me, that‟s what really happened and said you will be the leading woman. And that was how I became the leading woman. But, what it meant was that I became a member of actors union, equity. Well now, if you aren‟t an actor you can‟t know how important that is. You can‟t be a professional actor, if you are not a member of the union, and you can‟t be a member of the union if you are not a professional actor. That was quite something in the middle of my school year, my two years to my path to become a professional actor. What it meant was, we had to find a hundred dollars, because that‟s what it cost to join the union, heaven knows what it cost now. My father sent me a hundred dollars, that was something, and I became a member of the Professional Actors‟ Union, Actors‟ Equity in nineteen forty-three. See how long I have been an actress, a professional actress? Anyway, that summer I had three jobs, I was in the apprentice company, a member of the professional company, and I continued acting in both of those companies. Because in those days, the wages were so low, I was also waiting on table. I had a job as a waitress; I‟ve had so many part time jobs that I have had more than anyone I ever heard of. Anyway, I had the job of waitress, so I would work in the morning, breakfast and lunch as a waitress and then go to the theatre in the afternoon and evening. And somehow I was never tired, I don‟t quite know. Anyway, but now I have graduated from the Neighborhood Playhouse in nineteen forty-four, and that was quite an occasion because Helen Hayes who everybody has heard of, was a member of the Board of Directors for the playhouse and she saw me in our final play. I had the lead in the final play called A Murder in the Nunnery. Murder in a Nunnery, She wrote a letter which to this day I remember. It was to whom it may concern, but it was written to a number of producers, “I would like to introduce Elizabeth Wilson, who I think is an exceptionally talented actress and I think someday we will all be very proud to have helped her.” I memorized it, as you can imagine. That was a great boon, Lee, because I took that letter to producers. People again, who aren‟t actors have no idea, now looking back I don‟t know how I did it. There are thousands and thousands of people that come to New York every year wanting to be actors. How I ever did it I don‟t know, but I couldn‟t do it now. But I had a lot of nerve, and so I would call producers and call agents and say I have a letter from Miss Hayes, from Helen Hayes and that was unusual; and they would say, ”Oh, we‟d like to see you.” So I got into their offices and got to meet people because of Miss Hayes. And she wanted me to tour with her that summer. I remember when I came back in the summer of nineteen forty-four; again the war was much present on our minds. And Miss Hayes wanted me to go on a play that she was touring called Harriet, but I was too tall to play her daughter, because she is only five feet tall and so I didn‟t get to go because I wouldn‟t have been believable, because I was almost a foot taller. So I went back to New York that fall and had a very hard time and didn‟t get anything that whole fall, and I guess that I had some pretty rough times, I babysat, I worked in an insurance office and I had all sorts of odd jobs. And so in the spring of forty-five, I got my first real job, and the war was still on and it was with the USO. And that was my first honest to goodness job. Interviewer: Let‟s pause for just a moment. �13 Elizabeth: Alright. Interviewer: And now we‟re in the USO as it were. Elizabeth: Well, it‟s strange you know, I assume, well, all sorts of people will listen to this tape. In nineteen forty-five, the whole attitude towards the Second World War was a good deal different, than it has been toward recent wars. There was something really splendid, hard to believe, but true about entertaining the troops, which is indeed what I was doing. It sounds so corny and strange even as I say it. It was a funny little play called What a Life about, it was Henry Aldrich, it had been a popular radio program and the play was a big success on Broadway, What a Life and there were many companies of it. The USO was quite an important adjunct of the Armed Services of the Special Services Branch, that‟s what we were. Our group was going to the South Pacific; we didn‟t know where we were going that was great security. We traveled on a troop ship from San Francisco; it took us one month to get to New Guinea because we had to crisscross back and forth across the Pacific because of the Japanese submarines. We were without an escort; we weren‟t in a convoy, so it took us a whole month to get to New Guinea. Anyway, we played to the Army and Navy and the Air Force in New Guinea and all thorough the Philippine Islands, and of course, the war ended as we were leaving the coast of America. VE-Day came in, was it, April of nineteen forty-five, or something like that, and we were four or five days out of San Francisco when V-E Day came, and that was something. And we were in the Philippine Islands when V-J-Day occurred. So when our little troupe again after playing through the Philippine Islands we went up to Japan and continued to play. I could talk about that year; we played under the most extraordinary circumstances. We played for a dozen men and we played for fourteen thousand men. Sometimes we played in great outdoor theatres, the Seabees, the branch of the Army that, I guess, built the bridges. They built these really magnificent theatres in the middle of the jungles, the men would sometimes sit in bleachers, but sometimes they would hang out of trees. And the play was perfectly innocuous, and so they enjoyed it. They had stars who, personalities, but I think our play was, well I know they enjoyed it. And then I came home, and came directly to Grand Rapids, and that was in nineteen forty-six; I came back to Grand Rapids and did a play for the Civic Theatre, Bert Yarborough was still the director of the Civic Theatre. In the spring of nineteen forty-six I did My Sister Ilene with Buddy Dillingham, playing well, I was Ruth and she was Ilene, and that was a big success. Then I went back to New York and couldn‟t get a job, it was very hard. Couldn‟t get a job and my friend Robert Porterfield at the Barter Theatre, I remember I auditioned for the director. Which is the reason why I always, well, he has been dead for about three years, Robert Porterfield; I loved him so much because he‟d hired a number of directors for the summer of forty-six. And I auditioned for him and no, there was no room; the season was full, there was nothing to do. So, I went back to the little place I was living in New York, and I was very depressed, and it happened a lot. And the phone rang, and it was Robert Porterfield saying that well, it‟s perfectly true we don‟t have any place for you, and all the jobs are filled, but come anyway. Well, I did and I somehow made a space for myself and before I knew it, I was playing the lead. By that time, the director‟s changed their �14 minds and said no, I think you can play that part. By the end of the season, I was the leading woman and I went on tour. And it was the Barter Theatre the first State Theatre of Virginia. Robert Porterfield had gotten money from the state capital in Richmond and we had to play all the cities of Virginia. Well, practically all the cities of Virginia, except little itty bitty ones, we played all over high schools, gymnasiums all over the state. Then we toured outside the state of Virginia; many actors, Gregory Peck, Ernest Borgnine, Pat Neal, Hume Cronyn, and you name it and most of them were in that theatre and most of them I knew an worked with. It was a wonderful place, the two places that stand out in my career are the Neighborhood Playhouse and the Barter Theatre, because I went back to that place for many years and learned how to become an actress in front of an audience, which let‟s face it, it‟s the only way you are going to learn. And between nineteen forty-six and nineteen fifty-three I did a lot of other things. I state it that way, Lee because it was in nineteen fifty-three I got my first Broadway job. It was almost ten years from the day I graduated, I did work out in summer stock, I toured with Veronica Lake one summer, and with Edward Everett Horton, and I always managed to get a job in the summertime. And because of Robert Porterfield I learned and grew, I dare say, got big parts, and played with his theatre, toured all over the country, one night stands. But it wasn‟t until nineteen fifty-three, Helen Hayes, again because of the letter she wrote. Josh, Joshua Logan who had directed South Pacific, Mr. Roberts and probably the most famous director on Broadway at the time, was going to direct the play called Picnic by William Inge. And I went to an audition and I dressed the part, I heard the woman was a kind of dowdy school teacher. School teachers won‟t like that description, but she was a Kansas City teacher and taught feminine hygiene and she was a pretty strange character, at any rate, I dressed the part and went back several times and finally, I think the second or third reading, this doesn‟t happen very often and this was produced by the theatre guild. And we can go back and back about them; they produced all of the Eugene O‟Neil plays. And they were all out there, all of the theatre guild under the lights, and Josh Logan and everyone; they told me I had the part. I remember rushing home to my apartment which I then shared with my sister Mary, and bursting into tears, I couldn‟t believe it, after all these years. Because that was my dream. I think, Lee I could have died right then. That is what I wanted to be in a Broadway play. I thought my goodness, that was some day. Interviewer: And you remember going to San Francisco? Elizabeth: Very well. Interviewer: Because I was there. Elizabeth: Of course, you were there. We had a wonderful time. Interviewer: I think that is one of the last times I ever saw you on the stage. Elizabeth: Yes, I remember that very well. We were living on Nob Hill. You had a wonderful apartment. �15 Interviewer: Eleven-thirty Sacramento Street. Elizabeth: What Lee is talking about now is the national tour of Picnic. Picnic became a huge success on Broadway; we played at the Music Box Theatre on West Forty-Fifth Street for two years. Ralph Meeker, Kim Stanley, Paul Newman, Joanne Woodward was an understudy, that‟s when they met, Janice Rule, Eileen Heckart, Arthur O‟Connell. It was an extraordinary cast. And Kim Stanley was probably the greatest living, well she is. Everybody acknowledges she isn‟t working now because again. Interviewer: She is what? Elizabeth: American Actress. I think that is safe to say. No one will debate me. However, she was the younger sister. She played the younger sister, but we‟re talking about the national tour. After we played Broadway, Josh Logan asked me to play the mother in the national tour and that was quite a thrill. So I moved from the small part of Christine Schoenwalder, Christine Schoenwalder probably had eleven lines, if she had two. The teachers had quite a lot of scenes and then I went on the national tour. The when the national tour was over, Josh Logan asked me to be in the movie, so Picnic was my first movie. And I was flown to California and there were only some of the original cast, three of us from the original Broadway cast. That was Kim Novak, played in the movie and William Holden, and the three school teachers were Rosalind Russell and Rita Shaw and myself; we were from the original cast. So that was my first film, as you can imagine that was pretty exciting. We filmed it in Kansas, and took all summer, and then in the middle of summer, I was told, I had done a television show in New York, called Patterns by Rod Sterling, since has become famous. He‟s done Twilight Zones, famous writer and so forth. He‟d been a great success, and so I was asked to be in the movie version of Patterns. So that summer after I finished the movie of Picnic, the second movie with Van Heflin and Everett Stone, Ed Begley in Patterns which we filmed in New York. And oh, gracious, Lee, where do you want to go, now we are getting into the sort of nitty gritty, this was the fifties and I suppose the main plays I did then were things like Tunnel of Love, Desk Set, and did the movie versions, the movie version of Tunnel of Love with Doris Day, let‟s see, I am, not really skipping. I am just trying to think. In the early sixties, a very important thing, I got to be in a play called Big Fish, Little Fish. And, Mike Nichols saw me in that and that was a great turning point in my life because from then on practically everything he did, since then I have done six things for him, the mother in the Graduate opposite Dustin Hoffman playing my son. I played in Catch 22, and The Day of the Dolphin and then in New York I was in Plaza Suite and the revival of Little Foxes. And the most recent play in New York with Mike Nichols was Uncle Vanya which was a great success with George C. Scott, and Julie Christi and Nicole Williamson, the great English actor, and Lillian Gish, and Katherine Nesbitt. Interviewer: As I recall you got wonderful reviews. Elizabeth: Yes, wonderful reviews, a great success. �16 Interviewer: Was that two summers ago? Elizabeth: Exactly two summers ago we were doing. Interviewer: You‟ve skipped a lot of … Elizabeth: Yes, we‟ve done a big skip, but I‟m getting a little tired and I‟m sure you‟re ….well, can‟t we just? Well, you ask me some. Interviewer: What about, why don‟t you talk a little about Eastside/Westside. Explain that. Elizabeth: Eastside/Westside was a television series that we did ten years ago, on CBS with George C. Scott and Cicely Tyson and myself, and… Interviewer: That was quite a success as I recall. Elizabeth: Yes, it was a good series, a bit before its time, I think. Interviewer: Yes, since then you have gotten to know Mr. Scott and one of his ex-wives Miss Dewhurst, quite well. Elizabeth: Yes, Colleen Dewhurst. Well, I worked with George so many times. George and I did Uncle Vanya and Colleen and I did a play in New York, Colleen Dewhurst, who is really a superb actress, we did a play at Lincoln Center, a Brecht play called The Good Woman of Szechwan. Interviewer: How do you spell that? Elizabeth: Lord, I don‟t know how to spell Szechwan, it‟s The Good Woman of Szechwan. Interviewer: Is that a town or place? Elizabeth: Well, it‟s Chinese. Interviewer: I see, a Chinese word. Elizabeth: It‟s, you know we all know Szechwan cooking. Interviewer: Yes. Elizabeth: Is that Northern China, or I‟m not sure? Interviewer: I‟m not very good at Chinese. Elizabeth: I am a good student. Interviewer: I take it you still see a great deal of Colleen Dewhurst? �17 Elizabeth: Yes, she is one of my closest friends. Interviewer: Who are some of your other close friends in New York? In the theatre world? Elizabeth: Dustin Hoffman is a good friend; we have worked together a lot. We did an off Broadway play before we did The Graduate; we did a play called EH? Then we were in a movie together that nobody ever heard of called The Tiger Makes Out in which Dusty had a tiny part and I had a tiny part. Eli Wallach and Anne Jackson were in that. Then we did The Graduate. Dustin and I are good friends. Maureen Stapleton and I since Plaza Suite have become very close friends, she is a lovely woman. George Scott, of course, George Grizzard is a friend of mine, I am trying to think. The people in the movies, Paul and Joann Newman are friends, Gene Hackman is an old friend; we worked together in television in the old days. Peter Falk, I studied, when I returned in the fall from Sandy Meisner, after the play, I went back for a refresher course about ten years later and that is when I met Peter, he is a friend, did television with him. Oh, gracious Lee. Interviewer: Why don‟t we just move up to the present and tell us, me about your forthcoming TV series. How it came about. Elizabeth: Well, I am about to embark on something that is rather exciting, I suppose, I hope. I suppose how it came about, because these things are complicated. I have been going back and forth from California a great deal, because there is a less and less activity in New York City and fewer plays are being performed. Most of us that are still professional actors have to work and in television and movies, which indeed I have been doing the last few years. The Prisoner of Second Avenue and so forth. And the last two years I have been doing lots of television. I dare say, have done about fifteen, All in the Family, Maude, and specials, Easter Specials and Christmas Specials and thing like that. About two years ago I was in California doing what they call a pilot, each season the television networks do shows which they show to the network and the networks decide if a show is worthy of being made into a television series. And they make hundreds of them, and the first year, I made something called We’ll Get By and it finally got on the air, but it got on the air with an entirely different family which often happens. Then the second year, I did another one, again for CBS called Another April, which didn‟t quite make it. But as a result of seeing Barnard Hughes and myself in Another April, CBS decided they would make a third pilot film, this one was called Doc and it‟s about a husband and wife in MidManhattan today, contemporary story, a comedy written and produced by the people who do the Mary Tyler Moore shows. Low and behold about a month ago and they said that CBS had bought the pilot and we were going to start making the television series, starting July tenth nineteen seventy-five. And Lee, I just couldn‟t believe it, the odds. I tell you, they make hundreds of these things every year. The reason is they test them, show them around for whatever reason, and they‟ve chosen to do this. And let‟s hope it turns out and we start making thirteen and if they like it the network will pick it up and do thirteen more. So there you are. That‟s what my next... �18 Interviewer: How soon will you know if they like it or not? Elizabeth: I think about midway through the thirteen, Lee. I think the middle of August we should know. Interviewer: I see. Elizabeth: It will go on the air anyway; they‟ll put sixteen, not sixteen, six on. The television season starts the middle of September and… Interviewer: Do you what time? Elizabeth: Yes, Matter of fact they told us. It precedes the Mary Tyler Moore Show at eightthirty. Interviewer: Saturday night? Elizabeth: Saturday night and there is, and what they have told us, but that can change, but at the moment that‟s what they‟re saying. So in the meantime, I am having a lovely time in Grand Rapids. It is very beautiful here and I really…..It is really nice to be an actress, you work really hard but you get lot‟s more free time than most people. Your work is very concentrated, work hard for three or four weeks or three or four months on a project and then you have two or three weeks off, which is wonderful, I like that. Interviewer: Sure. Relieves the monotony. Elizabeth: I like being an actress, I do. I am very lucky, very lucky indeed. Interviewer: Let‟s pause for just a moment. Interviewer: Elizabeth, you‟ve said to me that being an actor can be very nerve-racking. Will you like to enlarge on that, and talk about that? Enlarge on it. Elizabeth: Sure, the psychology, the need for somebody or desire for somebody to perform hasn‟t been fully explored, and I think most actors had better not think too much about it. You know exhibitionism or something is not a very attractive trait, but I think when it becomes an art form. You are truly portraying a character in a play that‟s worth portraying. But it‟s a very nerveracking business, Lee. I think I try, lately try not to let it bother me, as much as it use to, as it sometimes does. But, it is nerve-racking because there you are, out in front of if not a hundred, or several thousand, you are in front of a television camera. And you are totally exposed, and it‟s the only reason you know, you can survive it all because again, this complicated mechanism that takes over when you are actually acting, because when you are acting, you are not yourself, you are not yourself, you are playing another person. And any psychologist or psychiatrist will tell you, I often say if I wouldn‟t have been an actress, I would have been put away. I don‟t suppose that is literally true, but I do enjoy fantasizing, I have a big imagination. When I was a little girl, �19 I would pretend to be in another situation. We all do that when we are growing up, but the only difference is that actors continue doing it. That is why most grown-up people think being an actor is kind of you know, silly. Well, I suppose in a way it is. It could be a little degrading for some men find to be an actor is to be you know, having to wear makeup. And I know a lot of men that find it degrading, or could be considered degrading. I feel, I am enjoying it more and more, and to get back to your original question, about it being nerve-racking. I find that I am enjoying it more and not allowing it to put me through the agony, but I am telling you it can. Opening night on Broadway, you see, when everything is at stake, now that is just excruciating. There are not very many times in most people‟s lives when they are that frightened. I mean, actors or anybody that has to get up and perform knows what I am talking about, but it is just terrifying. Because as somebody once said jokingly before an opening night on Broadway, don‟t worry it‟s just your career at stake. Because it is just that kind of thing, as I said to you, I believe the other day. It is a very unnatural thing for just the two of us, perfectly charming room and this beautiful June day looking out at the trees, we are performing in a way. Now my heart isn‟t pounding the way it does before I have to step on stage, or before we started the pilot for Doc, which is the last work I have done, my heart was pounding, Lee and I was pacing back and forth and so was Barnard Hughes and we were doing that because so much was at stake. I mean, I don‟t know what was in Barney‟s head, but we were thinking if we really are good this day on this show, this will be become a television series, just think what that will mean to our families, and to our lives. There is just so much at stake every time you step out. It is hard being an actor because you get rejected. People say I could never be an actor because you get rejected all the time. Well, you do; you are constantly, being put up against other people, the competition is so keen. You know just recently, I have been considered for a part, I may as well say, in a new film All the President’s Men. Now Robert Redford and Dustin Hoffman want me to play this part, Kay Graham. Whether I get this I don‟t know. Each day in the paper there is a report. One day it says I am going to be playing, the next day it says Lauren Bacall will be playing. Today it says Pat Neal and Lauren Bacall, but who knows, but I‟ll be rejected, probably maybe not, but I have to take it. But I always figure each time I take a rejection, it is like a little niche somewhere in my sensitivity kind of does a zero. When I go back to New York, perhaps I‟ll have to go audition for some things. It doesn‟t matter where you are in the theatre, you can be a great and important star, and you still get turned down. And most people in their lives, when they reach a certain position don‟t get turned down for things as often as actors do, it‟s a very… Interviewer: You, sort of, have to start all over again. Elizabeth: You begin, I am starting all over again with this television series and the critics can either make or break me. It is rough, really rough. Interviewer: I understand, I don‟t think they can break you. Elizabeth: If it was a real disaster, they can make it hard for me to get another job. �20 Interviewer: I trust that doesn‟t happen and I am not going to worry about it, I want to regress a little for a moment because the reason for doing some of these tapes is to talk about people from Grand Rapids and this area and get their impressions. I was interested in, as we drove to the little town of Ionia, which is a small town some thirty miles east of Grand Rapids, it just so happens some of our grandparents, came from Ionia, were brought up there in the nineteenth century to Grand Rapids as in the case of your grandfather Wilson, he came some time during the eighteen eighties and my grandfather Hutchins who was his brother in law came in eighteen ninety-eight and have been here ever since. In a real sense we have never had much of family in Ionia, except when we were rather young, we had one or two relatives, most, all of them are now in the graveyard. The reason for our going was that there was a house tour that day, and it had been written up in the Detroit paper, and one of my hobbies is Victorian architecture. And I realized, because I do get back to Ionia from time to time and, there would be some interesting houses to see and that you in particular might be interested to see. It just so happened, that it was a very successful experience, but just let me say I thought when we left that we might be home in three or four hours. As I recall we left at nine-thirty in the morning and rolled into our driveway at quarter after four. I had the feeling that you were enjoying it but… Elizabeth: Wouldn‟t you like to know why? Interviewer: Yes. Elizabeth: Architecture is interesting to someone who is romantic. I am a romantic, I‟m interested in the past and I am interested in the future too. I am interested in all that, it seems to have a great effect, Lee, on what I do. When I did the Chekov play Uncle Vanya for example I was very much effected by that period, that was eighteen ninety. I know for example when we went into the Voigt House, it is that same period, I am so fascinated because by then I knew exactly, Tony Walton who is a superb set designer, one of his great movies is the Orient Express, Murder on the Orient Express. He did the costume and set designs our production of Uncle Vanya, and they were absolutely authentic and divine. The Voigt house meant a great deal to me just as the houses in Ionia did. I sort of transplant myself into that situation, into that time and I can just imagine, imagine living in Ionia in those houses that we visited and I particularly like visiting your friend and having lunch, you know, with Mrs. Osley. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Osley. Elizabeth: Mrs. Osley and having lunch with her. She was just so interesting, Lee. People ask me, “Do you study characters, do you watch people? Are you always on the alert for somebody you might play?” I don‟t do that; I don‟t see how anybody could. I just happily live from moment to moment, but I probably store it up in my head. But there was something so romantic, so very romantic, so dramatic that she was leaving that house after all these years and we were probably her last visitors. �21 Interviewer: That‟s right we probably were. Elizabeth: I just don‟t know, it‟s a different type of thing. To go to a town like Ionia, in a way it is very relaxing, but it also is very interesting, to see those authentic…. Interviewer: Did you, the fact that you knew that your family had come from Ionia was that a factor in your enjoyment of that day or was that a secondary factor? Elizabeth: No, I think that is one of the reasons why that whole thing means so much, meant so much. Interviewer: I was interested because, at one point, just before we went to the Presbyterian Church, before or after, you wanted to see the site where our great grandmother and great grandfather had lived. The house was torn down a few years ago and now there was nothing except a gravel parking lot. I couldn‟t help but notice you went to the center of the parking lot, and stood there and looked around and yet you weren‟t looking at anything interesting, it is just a parking lot, yet you seemed to want to walk into the area and stay there a few moments perhaps. That seemed to mean something to you. Elizabeth: You are very observant, Lee, you are extremely observant, I wanted to be there, I wanted to have a sense of, my grandfather, whom I never knew Charles Wilson was born there and I just wanted to have a sense of him, a sense of the spirit of the man. I don‟t know, I just felt moved by the fact that my great grandfather and great grandmother and uncles and my grandfather lived on that spot. And goodness only knows what must have happened in that house, and there it was, and I felt it…. Interviewer: Except no house. Elizabeth: No house, but a vacant lot, I felt a very spiritual thing, when I stood there. It‟s true. Interviewer: Let‟s hope we can go back again, someday and go on another house tour. Hope your visits to Western Michigan are frequent. And continue to commute between Hollywood and New York. Because I do think you should keep your apartment there. I don‟t think living in Southern California will ever suit you, but that is just my opinion, as I said. This has been delightful and the hour is growing nigh to close. And leave this to prosperity to ponder. Elizabeth: Alright, thank you, Lee. Interviewer: Thank you, Elizabeth. �22 INDEX A Aldrich, Henry · 14 B Bacall, Lauren · 21 Baker, Elvira · 7 Barter Theatre · 8, 9, 15 Begley, Ed · 17 Blodgett Memorial Hospital · 2 Boon, Camilla · 5 Booth, Edwin · 5 Booth, Shirley · 8 Borgnine, Ernest · 15 Bryant, Steve · 12 Buck, Miss · 4 C Central High School · 3 Central Junior High school · 3 Cherryman, Myrtle Koon · 5 Christi, Julie · 17 Clark, Matt · 12 Cornell, Katherine · 6 Cronyn, Hume · 15 Cunningham, Robert · 7 Einecke, Mary · 4 Evoie, Alex · 8 F Falk, Peter · 18 Ford, Betty · 10 Fountain Street School · 2, 3 G Gish, Lillian · 17 Graham, Martha · 9, 10, 11 Grand Rapids Street Railway Company · 8 Grizzard, George · 18 H Hackman, Gene · 18 Hanchett family · 7, 8 Hanchett, Elizabeth · 7, 8 Hanchett, Gerald · 7, 8 Hayes, Helen · 13, 15 Heckart, Janice · 16 Heflin, Van · 17 Hoffman, Dustin · 17, 18, 21 Holden, William · 16 Horton, Edward Everett · 15 Hughes, Barnard · 19, 21 Hutchins, Mrs. Lee Wilson · 4 D Darryl, Jack · 12 Day, Doris · 17 Depression · 9 Dewhurst, Colleen · 18 Dillingham, Alex · 6 Dillingham, Buddy · 14 Dunning, Jane Wadsworth · 1 E Einecke, Harold · 4 I Idema, David · 6 Inge, William · 15 Irving, Washington · 5 J Jackson, Anne · 18 Jefferson, Joseph · 4, 5 �23 K R Ketcham, David · 12 Klein, Evelyn · 6 Redford, Robert · 21 Roosevelt, Eleanor · 9 Rule, Janice · 16 Russell, Rosalind · 16 L Lake, Veronica · 15 Lee, Vivian · 7 Lewis, Amy · 7 Logan, Joshua · 15, 16 M Marywood Academy · 3, 4, 5 Meeker, Ralph · 16 Meisner, Sandy · 10, 19 Meisner, Sanford · 9 Mencarelli, Jim · 2 Muir, Elizabeth Ewing · 1 N Neal, Patricia · 9, 15, 21 Neighborhood Playhouse · 9, 10, 12, 15 Nesbitt, Katherine · 17 Newman, Joann · 18 Newman, Paul · 16, 18 Nichols, Mike · 17 Novak, Kim · 16 O O‟Connell, Arthur · 16 O‟Neil, Eugene · 15 Olivier, Lawrence · 7 Osley, Mrs. · 22 P Park Congregational Church · 3, 4 Peck, Gregory · 15 Phillips, Margaret · 9 Porterfield, Robert · 9, 15 S Scott, George C. · 17, 18 Shaw, Rita · 16 Sonke, Dorothy · 5 Sposum, Robert · 12 Stanley, Kim · 16 Stapleton, Maureen · 18 Steenwyk and Thrall · 2 Steketee, Dick · 12 Sterling, Rod · 17 Stone, Everett · 17 T Tolliver, Monroe · 12 Tyson, Cicely · 17 V Voigt House · 22 W Wallach, Eli · 18 Walton, Tony · 22 Ware, David · 6 Welter, Ferdinand · 1 Welter, Marie Ethel · 1 Westminster Presbyterian Church · 3, 4 Williams, Betty · 6 Williamson, Nicole · 17 Wilson, Charles · 1, 6, 23 Wilson, Charles Moseman · 1 Wilson, Elizabeth Welter · 1 Wilson, Henry · 6 Wilson, Henry Dunning · 1 Wilson, Mary · 6 Wilson, Mrs. Charles · 2 Wilson, Mrs. Charles (Angeline) · 6 �24 Wilson, Mrs. Seymour · 2 Woodward, Joanne · 16 World War Two · 7, 14 Y Yarborough, Bertram · 6, 14 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/831da3c2271303ad1c188b393b59021b.mp3 30c92c171935cd349e77388053ffe167 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_51Wilson Title A name given to the resource Wilson, Elizabeth Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Wilson, Elizabeth Description An account of the resource Elizabeth Welter Wilson was born in Grand Rapids on April 4, 1921. Miss Wilson attended the American Academy of Dramatic Arts in New York. She was acquainted with well-known stage personalities, among them Helen Hayes and Shirley Booth. Miss Wilson co-starred on the TV series. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1975 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/36e1106395c5d5c93de33d39275282ba.pdf 84bb7dc1bf45614d6e1ea8e116f0803d PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mr. Donald G. Denison. Interviewed on May 15, 1975 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape # 50 (51:21) Biographical Information Donald G. Denison was born 22 April 1891 in Grand Rapids and died 21 Aug 1983. He was the son of Arthur C. Denison and Susan L. Goodrich. He married Adeline Smith in 1917. Arthur Carter Denison, son of Julius Coe Denison and Cornelia Carter was born 11 November 1861 in Paris Township, Kent County. He died 24 May 1942 in Cleveland, Ohio and was buried in the Oak Hill Cemetery in Grand Rapids. Susan L. Goodrich, daughter of Hiram and Cornelia Goodrich, was born on 17 June 1864 in Grand Rapids and died on 5 May 1896 at the age of 31 and was buried in Oak Hill Cemetery. Arthur and Susan were married 7 September 1886 in Grand Rapids. On 24 May 1898 Arthur married as his second wife, Julia B. Barlow, the daughter of Heman G. and J. Ruth (Hall) Barlow. Julia was born in November 1875 in Grand Rapids. She passed away on 6 July 1956 in Grand Rapids and was buried in Oak Hill Cemetery. ___________ Interviewer: This is the interview being conducted at the residence of Mr. Donald Denison, 31 South Prospect, on May fifteenth, nineteen seventy-five. I thought we’d start the interview by talking about the death of Mr. Denison’s grandfather which occurred on June twenty-fifth, eighteen seventy-seven. I’ll let you take it on from there, Mr. Denison. Donald: Alright, I’ll begin on how he got there. He came out here, I think in the early fifties, perhaps, and he bought two farms…one to the north of Grand Rapids and one to the south of Grand Rapids. And he farmed both of these places for several years. Somewhere along the way he…. he came into knowledge of this house at the corner of Ransom and Lyon. Interviewer: At the northwest corner, right? Donald: Yes. Interviewer: Which had been left high and dry in the air, by the cutting down of Ransom Street and Lyon Street, and I suppose he bought it for a comparative bargain because of that reason. Interviewer: Do you know who built the house? �2 Donald: No, but, somewhere around here is a clipping that tells all about it, I can perhaps find it before we get through. Interviewer: Yes, and your…I think you mentioned that your father had helped build a retaining wall there. Donald: Grandfather bought the place at a bargain I assume and built the retaining wall of the stone from the Grand River. Interviewer: OK. Donald: And my father, remembered vaguely, thinking he was helping his father with the stonework. He was probably a small boy of four or five… Interviewer: Yes. Donald: or so. Interviewer: Your father was born in eighteen sixty-one. Donald: Born in sixty-one, so this would’ve been in, in… Interviewer: Well, in the middle… Donald: Either that or in the late sixties sometime, yes. Interviewer: Well, I remember the house quite well because it was, well, it was sort of quaint, noted house... Donald: Yes. Interviewer: …and was built of Grand River Limestone, I believe. How long did your family live on in that house? Donald: They lived here only until he died, wait a minute, longer than that. He died in seventyseven. Interviewer: Right. Donald: And, they lived there at least, they possessed the house until I would think the early eighties. Interviewer: Ok. Donald: I know, there’s some diaries of my father’s who can make some kind a sale? And at that time, I think he was in Ann Arbor, as a law student. �3 Interviewer: Yes. Donald: So they had it for some years. Interviewer: Let me shut it off for a second…About or what year did your father-grandfather come to Grand Rapids? Donald: In the early fifties Interviewer: In the early fifties? Where was he born? Donald: He was born at, are we on the air now?’ Interviewer: Yes, he was born in.... Donald: Born in Durham, New York. Interviewer: Durham, New York. Donald: Which was in the Catskills. Interviewer: I see. Donald: And that family, his father’s name was John. That family came from Durham, New York to…. Interviewer: To Durham? Donald: To Eastern New York. Interviewer: Oh, I see. Donald: And settled… Interviewer: Well… Donald: I, trying to think… Interviewer: Well, was it an old colonial family? Donald: They came from…Yes; they came a generation or two before that from Connecticut. The first Denison was discovered in Connecticut in sixteen forty. Interviewer: Did he arrive there about that time? Donald: He was discovered there but…. Interviewer: I see. �4 Donald: How he got there or when, nobody knows. Interviewer: Your grandfather’s name was Julius, right? Donald: My grandfather’s name was Julius. Interviewer: He didn’t live for a great many years; I think he died when he was about fifty-four. Maybe you can describe the account of his death? Donald: Yes, there was a dispute to which he ended up-ended up before the alderman or the board of supervisors, whoever was in control of the city and county of that time, as to allowing or not allowing cattle to graze in the streets, besides the streets. Now whether that grandfather’s interest was pro or con, I don’t know. Interviewer: I think it was pro; at least it seemed that he wanted cows to be allowed in there. Donald: Should or should not cows be allowed? Interviewer: Yes. Donald: And he appeared before the council, to speak on the subject. But whether he was pro or con, I never knew. Interviewer: Well, I think the clipping is that I saw yesterday indicates that he was pro. Donald: Alright, at any rate, in the middle of his little speech or talk that he was making, I think he was standing before the council, he fell to the ground and promptly died. And whether he’d had any previous troubles or, with heart or otherwise I don’t know but I don’t think so, I never heard of any. Interviewer: Was he active in farming? Donald: Oh, yes. Interviewer: But he lived downtown? Donald: By this time, he lived in this house on the corner, what we’re talking about, and farmed the two farms by horse and buggy. Interviewer: Yes, I see but he actually lived right in the house in the heart of the city. Donald: Operated these two farms. Interviewer: One on the north end of town. Donald: One was across…I have a hard trouble remembering the names. �5 Interviewer: Well, some of the street names have changed, but I think it was almost up to the Kent Country Club, right around there. Donald: Right across Knapp Street from the present Kent Country Club was one farm. The other was out Paris, which is now grown up and city. Interviewer: Yes. And who was your grandmother? Donald: Grandmother was Cornelia Carter. Interviewer: Where did she come from? Donald: Who also came from rural western New York. Interviewer: Yes. Donald: They were married before they came out here. Interviewer: Did she outlive your grandfather for some years? Donald: Yes, indeed, she lived until nineteen seventeen. Interviewer: I have a note here, right. You must have pretty vivid memories of her? Donald: Of course, I was married by that time, and she lived long enough to know Adeline, my wife. We were married in nineteen seventeen. Interviewer: Yes. Donald: She was eighty-seven, I think. Interviewer: So, she lived a long time after her husband died. I believe your family moved at some point to a house also on Lyon Street, it was three twenty-nine; I drove by the house yesterday. It is still there, it has been covered unfortunately with aluminum siding, but you must remember that house. Were you born in that house? Donald: I was born in that house, and lived there until I went to college. Interviewer: Where did you go to college? Donald: University of Michigan. Interviewer: Right. Donald: I graduated in nineteen thirteen. �6 Interviewer: Your father [Arthur C.] was of course, a noted jurist and also went to University of Michigan, I believe and took his law degree there. And then came back to practice in Grand Rapids. Who were some of his earliest law partners and associates? Donald: He was a junior partner, protégée’ of Edward Taggert. Edward Taggert was the uncle of Johnson Taggert who was for many years the city attorney here. Interviewer: Who was Moses Taggert? Donald: Moses Taggert was Edward Taggert’s brother. Interviewer: I see... Donald: And … Interviewer: He practiced law though with other men and I believe two great uncles of mine, Hugh and Charles Wilson. Donald: Alright, the firm original was just plain Taggert with father as a helper then, when he came in it was Taggert and Denison, then your great uncle Charles joined them and for many years and in my youth, it was Taggert, Denison and Wilson. Interviewer: Yes, where did they have their offices? Donald: They had their offices in the Michigan Trust building, where I could get a haircut for a quarter, and tell the haircut operator that my father would pay it when he came along the next day. Interviewer: I see. I took the liberty of bringing some notes with me, but your father received an appointment as federal judge directly from President Taft, is that correct? Donald: Yes, he was appointed as successor to Judge Wanty, in nineteen nine, perhaps and before very long, a matter of only few short years he was appointed to the Cincinnati Court, where he continued until his seventieth birthday. Which was… Interviewer: Well, it was in nineteen thirty-one, yes. Donald: That sounds right. Interviewer: He was born on the tenth of November. And there was an interesting…. Donald: Now… Interviewer: Excuse me, go ahead. Donald: At that time he resigned from the court, which is quite different for retiring. A retiring judge as I understand it, is serving to call and still a member of the judiciary. �7 Interviewer: Yes. Donald: A resignee is through and free to go and practice law. Interviewer: Why did he resign? Donald: I presume to make some money. He would have never grown rich in the judicial business and he had a notion of resigning and coming back to Grand Rapids acting in an advisory capacity of someone here. He discussed the subject with Mr. Keeney. Interviewer: But that didn’t materialize. Donald: About that time Mr. Baker of Cleveland, the ex-Secretary of War…. Interviewer: Milton D. Baker. Donald: Milton D. Baker suggested to father that perhaps it would be a good idea for him to come down and join him as counsel, which appealed to him. And he did so; practiced law there for some ten years, which were very successful and happy years for him in association with Baker both socially and in the business. Interviewer: Did you know Mr. Baker yourself? Donald: I got to know him quite well and became a great admirer of him. Interviewer: He was quite an interesting personality, I believe, but I don’t know much about him. Donald: Well, I remember one thing about him. I was in his library in his house in Cleveland, and the library was lined to the ceiling with books and in the frieze around the top was a set of books in red leather and it made a complete frieze around the library. I asked him, “What are they?” And he said one thing you got for being Secretary of War; that was when you left they backed up a truck to your house and gave you the complete record of all the official documents of the Civil War. That was a tradition and there they were. That reminded me to ask him a question or two that puzzled me about Civil War times and he said well, let’s see. And he got a ladder, brought it out, climbed up on the ladder and looked at the books and got one down and studied it and answered my question. Interviewer: So you learned something? Donald: I learned something. Interviewer: And Mr. Baker died before your father did, as I recall, but your father stayed on in the firm. Donald: Father was here visiting when he got a telephone call, that Mr. Baker had died. It was a blow, of course. �8 Interviewer: About when did your family move into this house? Donald: nineteen sixteen. Interviewer: Yes. Who built this house? Donald: Mr. Sligh Interviewer: Mr. Charles Sligh? Donald: Mr. Charles Sligh built the house in eighteen ninety-one. Interviewer: I see. Did he live here until the time of the sale? Donald: He owned it until that time. Interviewer: Yes. Donald: The house was rented for a short time. I am trying to think of the name of the family. The girl in the family married Paul Hollister. Interviewer: Yes, I can’t tell you. Donald: They rented this house for a very short time. Interviewer: Yes. Donald: Otherwise it never had occupants except Slighs and Denisons. Interviewer: Now when your father went to Cleveland in nineteen thirty or thirty-one or thirtytwo, did you stay on in this house? Donald: We moved into this house. Interviewer: I see. Donald: It had stood vacant for a time; then we moved into it. Interviewer: And you are still here. Let’s see, let’s go back a minute, you were born in the house over on Lyon Street, three twenty-nine? Donald: And that’s right Interviewer: Do you remember much about that neighborhood? Donald: Well, I grew up there, so I remember a lot of course. The Idemas were our close neighbors; they directly across the street. Interviewer: Yes. And who were some of the other neighbors? �9 Donald: The Henry Idemas, also Fred Idemas. Fred Idema was Henry Idema’s brother and they lived right next to each other across the street. The Treadways lived next door to the Idemas and the Whitmans built a house right next to us and sold it quite shortly to Frank Dykema. Interviewer: Was he the druggist? Donald: Dykemas, no (Pat was?) Interviewer: Did the Barlows live nearby? Donald: Barlows lived next door. They were my step-grandparents. We boys, there were three of us and we really had two homes. It was humorously said that we would go into the two kitchens to see which house was serving up the dinner that we liked we would settle down in that house. Interviewer: How old were you when your mother died? Donald: Five years old. I remember her, vaguely remember a few fleeting pictures of her. Interviewer: Your father remarried and married Julie Barlow. Donald: And they were our next door neighbors, Julia Barlow, that’s right. Interviewer: So you have pretty vivid memories of the Barlow family. Who are the Barlows; I mean who were Mr. and Mrs. Barlow? Donald: Heman Barlow was in the wholesale grocery business with Mr. Judson in what later turned out to be the Judson Grocery Company. The Barlows were originally New England family that turned into U.E. Loyalists and went to Canada and then re-immigrated here in 1860, I think. How they got to Grand Rapids from Canada I do not know, but they came here when Grandfather Barlow was ten years old Interviewer: He was born in eighteen fifty, at one point he was a bookbinder, I understand. Donald: It was his brother. Interviewer: His brother, I see. Donald: Yes, although it was known as Barlow Brothers. Series of bound volumes are still around here, falling apart most of them. Interviewer: Where did you go to school? Donald: I went to Fountain Street School to begin with, which was where Central High School is now. �10 Interviewer: I see. That’s why they call Fountain School, Fountain School, I suppose. They built Fountain School around the corner on College. Interviewer: Yes, it is still. Donald: They continue to call it Fountain Street School. Then by the time we got to sixth grade we went to Central Grammar School, which comprised of seventh and eighth grades, yes. Interviewer: Where was that located? Donald: That was on the same grounds as the High School. The High School fronted on Ransom. And the Central Grammar School which had been the earlier High School, I think, it fronted on either Lyon or it fronted on Bostwick. So there were two buildings on that little campus, as it were; the High School and the Central Grammar School. Earlier there had been the old Stone school on that same location that my father and mother had both gone to. Interviewer: And that was on Bostwick or on Ransom? Donald: I think it occupied the grounds between them. Interviewer: I see. Did you go to Central High School after Central Grammar School? Donald: Then I went to Grand Rapids High School. Interviewer: Where was that? Donald: That was right there, that was the building that was just torn down in the last year. Interviewer: Oh, yes. Donald: It was not called Central because it was the only high school except the one on the west side and that only went thru the eleventh grade. And in nineteen eleven the present Central High School was built and assumed that name of Central High School. It was a continuation of the old Grand Rapids High School, same faculty, same records. Interviewer: You graduated from old Grand Rapids High School? Donald: There was no such thing as Central High School then. Interviewer: What year did you graduate? Donald: Nineteen eight Interviewer: Nineteen eight and you went directly there to Michigan. Donald: No, I worked for a year in the furniture factory, in the Macey Furniture Factory, Macey Furniture Company, made sectional bookcases. �11 Interviewer: I remember that because I think my grandfather was the director of it or something. Donald: Might well have been. It was headed by Otto Warneke. Interviewer: Hmmm. Donald: And it was quite a prosperous concern. Interviewer: Where was it located? Donald: On South Division, the building is still there, pretty well out South Division. Interviewer: I wonder who is in the building now. Donald: I think it is a storage building for somebody. Interviewer: Steelcase or one… Donald: Not Steelcase, who is…? Interviewer: Your knowledge of South Division is as bad as mine. Donald: I used to get up and ride the streetcar down there and get there at seven o’clock. I remember that. And we worked ten hours a day plus an extra ten minutes. The extra ten minutes were a credit that applied on Saturday so we could get away at noon on Saturday. Interviewer: I see. Donald: And still have our sixty hours for the week. Pay was a dollar an hour. Interviewer: Was that pretty good pay? Donald: It was pretty good for me. Interviewer: Then you went to the University of Michigan from there. Donald: After a year of that, I decided I better get an education and then went to the University of Michigan. Interviewer: What was your class there? Donald: Class of nineteen thirteen. Interviewer: Nineteen thirteen and you were married in nineteen seventeen you said. Donald: Nineteen seventeen. Interviewer: Was Mrs. Denison, your first wife from Grand Rapids? �12 Donald: No indeed. She was from Hinsdale, Illinois, a suburb of Chicago. Interviewer: I see. Donald: She had connections at White Lake where we had a summer cottage. Interviewer: What was her maiden name? Donald: Adeline Smith. Interviewer: Adeline Smith. Now let me just take a look at these notes I made. After college what did you do? Donald: I got a job at the Ford Motor Company of Canada, in Walkerville right across from Detroit and was there until practically, until the war. Interviewer: Perhaps, I should have asked what did you major in at Michigan. Donald: Literature, Science and the Arts, so called. Interviewer: Did that? Donald: They had no majors at that time, probably history. Interviewer: I see. Donald: I took a lot of history; there were no formal majors at that time. Interviewer: The first job you took after college graduation was not in any way related to what you studied at U of M? Donald: That’s right. Interviewer: And how long were you with Ford? Donald: Three years. Interviewer: Then you went into the service? Donald: Then I went into the service. Interviewer: Tell me about what you did, what rank you achieved and where you were and so forth. Donald: Well I went to first do is Training Camp at Fort Sheridan, received a commission as First Lieutenant. Interviewer: Then you went abroad? �13 Donald: I never went abroad, Fort Sill Oklahoma the Artillery School, stayed there two years, till the war was finished. Interviewer: Then you returned to Grand Rapids? Donald: In the meantime I was married. I was married just before going to Fort Sheridan. The work down there was training, and firing practice on the firing ranges. I there got a captains commission to the Ninth Artillery and we fired a lot of ammunition at no enemies. No, I didn’t come back to Grand Rapids I came back to Detroit and got a job there with the National City Company of New York, which was a (?) of the National City Bank of New York, selling bonds. And there in and out of Municipal Bonds business for quite a few years. Interviewer: Did you live in Detroit all those years? Donald: I lived in Grosse Isle, just outside of Detroit twelve, thirteen years. Our children were either born there or nearby, grew up there. Down the road from us a half- mile lived the Johnson family, and Mrs. Johnson is upstairs here now. Interviewer: So you met your second wife while you were living… Donald: Oh, yes we were old friends; families were friends and neighbors for a dozen years. Interviewer: And you were in and out of the bond business for a number of years? Donald: I was in it… Interviewer: How long did you stay in that business? Donald: I stayed in that until the Second World War. Interviewer: When did you return to Grand Rapids? Donald: I returned to Grand Rapids in nineteen thirty-three, at the time of the bank failure. Interviewer: Yes. Was that a pretty hard time for you? Donald: That was a rather difficult time, yes. Interviewer: As it was for a good many. Donald: The job had shortly vanished. I was with the Guardian Company in Detroit which was part of one of the banking groups that went down the precipice. [Union Guardian Trust Company of Detroit] Interviewer: Was that? Donald: So I had no job for some time and no money, yes it was a difficult time. �14 Interviewer: Was that Guardian Company in Detroit associated with the one in Cleveland? Donald: No. Interviewer: (?) Seems to me there was a group there… Donald: At that time, having no job, I organized a company of my own, consisting of mostly myself. And ventured into the municipal bond business for myself and was there for several years and got along not too badly Then we moved back here. Interviewer: Then you were in business downtown. Where were you located? Donald: The Michigan Trust Building. Interviewer: So your children received their education in Grand Rapids about that period? Donald: Yes, Interviewer: One of the things I know about you, because I have been there and known other people that have summered there, for a great many years you have been going to White Lake, north of Muskegon Donald: My father had a cottage there and we have been going…. Interviewer: How long have you been going? When did your father first go there? Donald: Went there in eighteen ninety-two. I was a year old when we went there. Interviewer: Is that the cottage you had until recent years? Donald: That is the cottage we had until recent years. Interviewer: Were there already other people that had gone up there from Grand Rapids? Donald: The Butterfields and the Taggerts Interviewer: Did they go up before your father? Donald: They both had gone up before that time, so. Interviewer: Yes. Donald: By the time, I went up there I remember three Grand Rapids lawyers living right in a row, Mr. Wilson became the fourth. Interviewer: Mr. Hugh Wilson? Donald: No, Mr. Charles Wilson. �15 Interviewer: Charles Wilson? Donald: So at that time then that made four Grand Rapids lawyers in a row. Interviewer: How did you spend your time up there at White Lake? Donald: Digging in the garden and sailing. Interviewer: And I think, you maintained your interest in sailing at least until recent years. Donald: Yes, until recently. Interviewer: Did the families commute back and forth, I mean did your father have to come back to Grand Rapids or did he go up there and spend long periods of time? How did it work out? Donald: All those lawyers commuted weekends. Interviewer: Did they drive? Donald: No, drive what? Interviewer: Not automobiles. Not in the early nineties. Donald: Didn’t drive automobiles. Interviewer: Took trains I suppose. Donald: The Butterfields had horses, and they use to transport their horses up there, or bring them up there. The fathers would commute weekends by train to Whitehall and then boat down the lake. Interviewer: Yes. Donald: And they would arrive either Friday night or Saturday night and leave very early Monday morning and get back here the middle of the morning some time. Interviewer: About what time of year would you open up your cottage up there? Donald: When school closed. Interviewer: I see. Donald: Which was late in June. Interviewer: And you must have known a lot of people up there over the years. �16 Donald: There was a boarding house nearby called Partridges and many, many Grand Rapids people use to go up there. Grand Rapids people that had cottages up there were, the Butterfields, the Taggerts, the Wilsons, ourselves, the McNabbs, the Forbes’. Interviewer: Quite a settlement. Donald: Oh, yes. Interviewer: and you don’t go to White Lake anymore, but you go nearby I understand. Donald: Well, we go there, if I had a good strong arm, I could throw a stone into each lake. Interviewer: There is a ridge between them. Donald: Yes, there is a ridge in between. Interviewer: I know that your family had some connection with the Congregational Church, at one point with Park Church. Is that a family tradition that your family was Congregationalists going way back, or…? Donald: Yes, the grandparents, Denisons, were early members of that church. My family were; the Barlows were very active in it. Interviewer: I will just shut this off for a moment. END of Side One Interviewer: We will start again on this side and this time we’re going to talk about a letter you received from a young man the other day and your reply. It involves football at the University of Michigan. Why don’t you read parts of the letter you like to? This is your reply, I take it. Donald: It is too long for this business, isn’t it? Interviewer: No, it’s not too long. You can read as much or as little as you wish. Why don’t you read, maybe you should start with his inquiry. You received this letter the other day you said. Donald: Received this letter from a young man in Ann Arbor. He said for the past two years I have been very interested in the history of football here at the U of M and someday I hope to write a book. I was wondering if you can recall about your football days here. I believe you were a reserve halfback in nineteen ten, eleven and twelve weighing one hundred and one and five feet eleven tall. What were your teammates such as Benny Bender, Colin Quinn, Stan Wells, (?) Conklin and others. Do any games or instance standout? What kind of coach was Yost? It might interest you to know that as of nineteen seventy-two the alumni association numbers over one hundred surviving members of your nineteen thirteen class. Interviewer: Now, this is your reply. �17 Donald: This is my reply: Dear Bob, Your letter was like a bombshell, imagine anyone knowing or caring about the activities of a third string football player of sixty years ago. I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry. Well, you deserve a good answer and I will try to give you something. What kind of coach was Yost? He was a good one. He loved football and he taught us personally. He didn’t sit in his office, if he had one, and direct his assistants. In fact, he only had one or two and didn’t let them do much. And every practice scrimmage he was in the middle, correcting and exhorting. He could whack a slowpoke on the back with a full swing and it was no love pat. At this time, he was perhaps thirty-five years old, strong, lean and tough. To demonstrate the use of hands on defense, he would grab one by the shoulder and toss them aside like a leaf. He liked to demonstrate the way to catch the ball. He would put his left hand with palm inward in front of his chest and say in his slightly southern drawl this hand says it can’t bound on back, you know. And place his right hand palm up waist high and say this hand says it can’t fall thru, you know. He was a Civil War buff and loved to compare war and football tactics. As for General Lee holding the line, Jackson ran the end. He was ahead of his time about vitamins. When the squad came into the training table, each place was set with a large salad and you ate that before you got anything else. He didn’t like to lose anymore than Woody Hayes. In the last game nineteen five, after five years of straight wins, Chicago took it two to nothing. Five years later, Yost was still maintaining that the officials made a ghastly mistake and that it really was a touchback and not a safety. Another famous game before my time which was in Chicago was billed as a battle of ages between the two supermen, Heston of Michigan Eckersall of Chicago. Eckersall ran faster but Heston ran harder and Michigan twenty-two- Chicago twelve. At age thirteen, I went my parents by special train from Grand Rapids. My memory of the actual game is a little vague, but a song of the Michigan rooters perhaps ten-thousand strong so tickled me that I have never forgotten it. It ran “Eckersall, Eckersall, when you are running with the ball, you could take an awful fall, Ecky Ecky Break your necky, Eckersall.” Later in college I could sing that song, nobody else knew it. Another game I remember well was a practice one, between the varsity and the reserves better know as a scrubbish. I was backing up the line for the scrubbish and having great success in sifting thru and tackling the varsity backs before they got started. My teammates all patted me on the back and told me how good I was, and I thought so too, but Yost didn’t seem to notice. A few days later I was having a beer with my good friend Tom Vogel, who was a regular and very good varsity lineman and while discussing this incident, he asked me did Yost say anything to you? I said no. Tom said, didn’t you know that I was letting you through. I thought you could do with a little recognition. He fooled me but he didn’t fool Yost. Does that sound like anything?… Interviewer: Yes, it sounds interesting. Was this, was George Thompson at Michigan at that time? What was his class? Donald: Yes, nineteen twelve. �18 Interviewer: Only a year apart. Donald: Yes. Interviewer: Do you remember any of his football exploits? I guess he was considered one of Michigan’s greats in those days. Donald: I remember how hard he hit when you tried to tackle him. Interviewer: Yes. Donald: He was tough, didn’t try to tackle him many times. We used to play these semi games…. Interviewer: We lost a little bit of the other side of the tape. And I want to go back to the story of going to the Kent Country Club again. Just as if we hadn’t heard it before, will you try to repeat it for me? Donald: Alright. The other day I was asked how long I had been going to the Kent Country Club and I recalled an early incident. In high school time perhaps nineteen six a high school fraternity party was at Kent Country Club and I told my parents I had asked a girl. It was the first time I had taken a girl anywhere to go to this party and I would have to have a cab because that is what everyone else is having. It didn’t mean a taxicab like today, it meant a horse drawn vehicle. My parents weren’t enthused about that. They said when they went to the same club as they frequently did, they went by streetcar and they opinioned that I could go by streetcar. Julius Amberg, a classmate, came to the rescue. His father had horses, and Julius and his girl and I and my girl went in style in a closed carriage with a coachman driving. Interviewer: Ordinarily you took the streetcar. Donald: Ordinarily everyone took the streetcar. Interviewer: Where did you board the streetcar and what…? Donald: We boarded the streetcar on Lyon Street in front of our house, rode on it down to the foot of Lyon at Monroe, Canal then. Took the Plainfield line out to Carrier Street and there transferred to a little one-horse line that went from Carrier Street out the remaining few blocks Kent. Interviewer: Was that… Donald: That car shuttled back and forth. Interviewer: Was it an electrical line? Donald: No, it was. Sure it was trolley cars, overhead trolley. �19 Interviewer: Yes, that went right to Kent Country Club? Donald: It shuttled between Plainfield and Kent Country Club, Plainfield Avenue just beyond Leonard. Interviewer: And you are still going out to the Kent Country Club, but not by streetcar anymore. I take it you spend a little time there when you’re in Grand Rapids. Donald: I go most every day and hit some practice balls if nothing else. I’m still hoping to improve my swing. Interviewer: You may! Donald: I may! Interviewer: Is there some tournament coming up in the near future? I thought I heard your wife speak that you are getting ready for some big event. Donald: I have a friend in Detroit that is an excellent golfer and he would like to come over here and play in a … I’ve forgotten what they call it; visitor’s tournament of some kind. That’s not the actual…. Interviewer: I see. Donald: That’s not the actual… Interviewer: Sure, I know what you mean, but I don’t know the name either. I’m not a golfer …. Donald: I’m practicing up so I don’t disgrace him too badly. Interviewer: That’s good, now you have lived on in this neighborhood Lyon Street in this house a great deal of your life. I am interested in getting you thinking about the changes that have occurred and you mentioned that you thought there was quite a little continuity as far as this particular part of the city if concerned. Donald: As far as this block and street, all of the houses have stayed the same. Most of them have been divided into a varying number of apartments. Interviewer: Who lived on either side of you? Donald: My early recollection, names leave me…. Interviewer: That’s not too important now. Just name some other families that lived in this block…. Donald: Alright, the Sears family lived in this building, the two Sears brothers and one across the street in what was later the Stewart house. �20 Interviewer: Steketees must have lived…. Donald: Steketees lived on the corner. Interviewer: I seem to recall Charlie Campbell lived… Donald: Charlie Campbell lived in the Steketee house after it was made into the apartments much later. Interviewer: Didn’t they live in the little house? Donald: The Campbells lived in three houses around here, the old Steketee house, the little house, and in an apartment down the street. I think they lived in the Steketee house when Charlie died. Interviewer: I think that is true. Has the neighborhood changed a great deal, do you think? Donald: Well, it’s held surprisingly well, so I suppose it changes because it is all apartments. Donald: The houses are externally unchanged. Interviewer: Go back to that house on Lyon Street where you were born. About when was that house built? Donald: I can almost plot it probably there, because I think that it was new when my father and mother were married and moved in to it, and that was Eighty-six, that’s about when it was built. Mr. Henry Idema built it on the vacant lot across the street. He lived on the other side of the street for speculation or investment perhaps, and sold it to my father when it was new. Interviewer: Well, it is still standing. Donald: It is still standing and with the Idema house across the street, it is one of most respectable ones there. Interviewer: And you had two brothers you mentioned. Donald: A younger brother and an older brother. Interviewer: And who was the older brother? Donald: That was John, some four years older than I, went to Chicago and spent his life in a bank there. Younger brother Arthur disappeared from a ship at sea. Interviewer: Really. Donald: At about thirty years of age. �21 Interviewer: I hate to ask this question, but what year were you born? Donald: Eighteen ninety-one. Interviewer: I could have reconstructed that, I guess. Donald: You could figure that one out? Interviewer: You’re in your middle eighties at this point. Donald: Middle aged, let’s say. Interviewer: Middle-aged. Donald: That’s better. Very lucky physically, as well as I ever was. Interviewer: That’s great. I think this has been a delightful interview, I might say that for the benefit for whoever listens to this someday. I came completely unprepared and discovered I didn’t have the little adapter to go on the plug, so Mr. Denison had the bright idea of just driving up the street and picking one up, which we did and we finally got the thing going. I must say, I didn’t even know we had a little electrical store a few blocks away that would have such an item, so with that I’ll turn it off and you can get ready to go to the Kent Country Club if that’s where you are going next. INDEX A Amberg, Julius · 19 B Denison, Arthur Carter (Father) · 2, 3, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 15, 16, 19, 21 Denison, Cornelia Carter (Grandmother) · 5 Denison, Julius Coe (Grandfather) · 1, 3, 4, 5, 11 Dykema Family · 9 F Baker, Milton D. · 7, 8 Barlow Family · 9, 10, 17 Butterfield Family · 15, 16 Ford Motor Company · 12 Fountain Street School · 10 C G Campbell Family · 21 Central Grammar School · 10 Congregational Church · 17 Grand Rapids High School · 11 D Idema Family · 9 Denison, Adeline Smith (1st Wife) · 1, 5, 12 I �22 J T Johnson Family · 6, 14 Taggert, Edward · 6 Taggert, Moses · 6 Thompson, George · 18 K Kent Country Club · 5, 19, 20, 22 U M Union Guardian Trust Company of Detroit · 14 University of Michigan · 6, 12, 17 Macey Furniture Factory · 11 N National City Company of New York · 13 S Sears Family · 20 Sligh, Charles · 8 Steketee Family · 20 W Wanty, Judge · 6 Warneke, Otto · 11 White Lake · 12, 15, 16 Whitman Family · 9 Wilson, Charles (Great-Uncle) · 6, 15 Y Yost, Bob · 17, 18 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/978ab47bd2d42adf7a9c785273e8a700.mp3 d370388d6f30ad9249010349122827b6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_50Denison Title A name given to the resource Denison, Donald Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Denison, Donald Description An account of the resource Donald Denison was born in Grand Rapids, graduated from the University of Michigan ca. 1913, and served in WWI. His father was a judge who was appointed by President Taft in 1911 to the U.S. District Court of Appeals. Mr. Denison's father resigned as a judge in 1931 to enter private practice with the firm of Newton Baker, President Wilson's Secretary of War. Mr. Denison sold bonds through National City and his own company. He died August 21, 1983. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1975 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4ff324ff20bdecd158c6524e9e6dd6cd.pdf de88fc3eefc4d3aa6de2a21f05fde250 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mr. Charles MacLear Kindel Interviewed on March 13, 1975 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #49 (52:27) Biographical Information Charles MacLear Kindel, known as “Chuck” was born in Denver City, Colorado on 29 March 1899, the son of Charles J. Kindel and Jessie M. MacLear. He died in Grand Rapids on 10 September 1982. It was on 8 November 1924 that he married Katrina C. van Asmus probably in Illinois. The father, Charles Joseph Kindel was born in Cincinnati, Ohio on 13 June 1872. He was the son of Gabriel Kindl and Marianna Herkommer. Charles J. married Jessie Matilda MacLear on 8 June 1898 in Denver City. Jessie, born in St. Catherine’s, Ontario on 27 August 1876, was the daughter of Thomas MacLear and Mary E. Reynolds. The father, Charles died in Grand Rapids on 28 July 1962, and Jessie died on 19 July 1956 in East Grand Rapids. ___________ Interviewer: I’m at the residence of Mr. Charles Kindel, 1900 San Lu Rae; it’s Thursday, March 13th, 1975. Mr. Kindel, recently in the local newspaper I read that you had gone to Washington and that many years ago you were President Ford’s Scoutmaster, and you started to tell me about coming here and that you’d been in scouting before. Kindel: We came to Grand Rapids in nineteen thirteen from Wilmette, Illinois and I was a scout over there when I became twelve. And when we came to Grand Rapids I was a First Class Scout. Scouting was just starting in Grand Rapids, and I joined Troop One at Sigsbee School and worked at the boys scout camps in the summer time and I became the first Eagle Scout in Grand Rapids. Then after I returned from England, where I was production manager in an English furniture factory I got married, and had a boy on the way and I felt that I should return some of the service that adults had given me. As you know an adult gives a lot of service to the scout movement. So I became the Scoutmaster at Troop Fifteen which was at the Trinity Methodist Church on Lake Drive. And Jerry Ford, who was called Junior Ford at the time, joined the troop, and naturally he seemed to have the ability to make friends and was of course, very athletic, [and] very well liked. Interviewer: What year was that? Kindel: That was in the year of nineteen twenty-five. I had the troop for one year, and then they made me commissioner of the district of scouting which comprised of eight troops which I kind of oversaw with the help of the troop committees and the various troops. And as you can imagine �2 a troop is only as good as its scout master, and a good troop committee gets a good Scoutmaster. So my brother then took the troop over for a year. Jerry became an Eagle Scout in nineteen twenty-seven, and luckily he was appointed by Governor Green to be one of the Eagle Scouts to act as a color guard at Mackinac Island. Interviewer: How old was he about then? Kindel: And he must have been fifteen or sixteen. Then when the Boy Scout national headquarters looked up Jerry Ford’s records they found that I was his first Scoutmaster and they felt that for the annual meeting of scouting in Washington where they were holding a oratorical contest from boys all over the United States, which was sponsored by the Reader’s Digest, they had semifinals in Washington the night before I got there, and there were just the two boys left in each category that the C Scouts the Boy Scouts and the Explorer Scouts. Well then, I was flattered because I was introduced as the President’s Scoutmaster by everybody in Washington that I met connected with the Boy Scout movement. The next day I was told to meet the head that was handling the expedition to the White House to be at the front door of the hotel at eleven o’clock. And as we boarded the bus; the boys were all in the bus, about twelve - fourteen Eagle Scouts the man who was handling this as I entered the bus he said to the boys, “This was the President’s Scoutmaster.” Well they gave me a big hand as you can imagine, some of these scouts came to me and said “I just want to shake the hand of the Presidents Scoutmaster,” which I got a kick out of naturally. Then we went to the White House. Interviewer: When was this exactly? Kindel: That was on Tuesday the twenty-fifth, of February. Interviewer: February. Kindel: And, we went to the White House and were ushered into the Teddy Roosevelt room in which I’d never been in. It had a big picture of Teddy Roosevelt and his Charger, the Rough Rider. It was a lovely conference room with lovely furniture of course. Then we went in to see the President and the minute I walked in, because I headed the procession more or less, Jerry spoke right up and said, “Well there’s Chuck Kindel,” and we shook hands. The boys were welltrained, cause they went up to the president and said, “Mr. President, it’s nice to see you, my name is so and so from Houston, Texas” or wherever they came from. Jerry was just himself, he, no pomp and ceremony. We presented him with the collage, which was a painting that was done by an artist in New Jersey, depicting some of the activities that Jerry took part in as a scout. And then as we, he of course was very nice and responded and remembered some of the boys that were in the troop with him, as a matter of fact he mentioned two of the boys, Engle B and Engle A were twins, who were both admirals in the Coast Guard. �3 Interviewer: What were the last names? Kindel: Engle, E-N-G-L-E. I lost track of those boys, but they tell that Engle, one of the Engles is head of the Coast Guard now and the other one’s retired. Interviewer: I wonder if they’re any relation to Engle Whinery. Kindel: No relation to Engle Whinery that I could find. I tried to find out more about the family, the Engles. I did talk to several of the boys that were in the troop with us. Most of them had done pretty well, Jerry reminded me of these different boys and I was amazed that he remembered their names, because I was thinking back at some of the boys who were in my troop early, and I don’t remember many of those names, that’s so long ago; you want to remember this was fifty years ago. Interviewer: Can you remember some of the people some of the boys that were in Jerry’s troop? Kindel: Oh yes, there was Richard Cassidy; his father had a drugstore on Lake Drive and Robinson Road. And then there was Ed Perch who was a tool maker. Well I looked up quite a few of Wiersmas; there were three Wiersma brothers that were in the troop the same time. And of course a Behler, Gerald Behler, he was the chairman of the troop committee, the BehlerYoung company, and his boy was in the troop, too. He’s out in Colorado now I found out. Some of the boys are scattered around the United States. But, Jerry seemed to remember that really amazed me to see that he would remember so much of it. He talked about it to the other boys, who were there how we handled scouting in those days. And of course, the troop committee is the most important part. The church has done a wonderful job in getting good troop committees. It’s the men’s club activities for the Trinity Church and Roger Chaffee who was the Astronaut that died in the accident at the in the missile, was an Eagle Scout from the same troop. At the conclusion of the presentation, we all filed out. I happened to be at the tail end of it, because I had been the first one in. As we were going out, Jerry said, “Chuck wait just a minute, stay here will you,” so we were alone in the oval room together and he asked about our family, because he’s a friend of Ted and Nancy’s out in Vail, and I told him how much Ted’s kids appreciated the gold brackets that he gave them for Christmas. Then he pulled out of his pocket a pen with the Presidential seal on it and he said, “I’d like to have you give this to Katrina.” And then out of another pocket he brought out another box, and in it was a pair of cuff links with the Presidential seal on it for me, which of course I’ll appreciate. Then we said goodbye, we got back into the bus, went back to the big luncheon that was being held at this oratorical contest. And although I don’t like publicity, and being the front, I was a presented as being the President’s Scoutmaster which of course, pleased me but it was quite a crowd there. I had a lot of people come up to me and ask me if I would just shake their hand because I was the President’s Scoutmaster. Interviewer: Let’s go back to the beginning of your life, and ask some questions about where you were born, and sort of vital statistics, of that sort if I could. And then why don’t you take this up �4 to as far as you’re coming to Grand Rapids, and tell us about your father and the first furniture business he had here. Go back and start from the beginning. Kindel: I was born in Denver Colorado, because my father had a bedding and upholstery business in Denver. But in, he took the attitude that Denver would never be anything but a health resort. And so he decided when the World’s Fair was in, to be in 1904 in St. Louis, he sold his business and moved to St. Louis because he felt that the incoming people to see the World’s Fair would be good for the bedding and upholstery business. So while he was in St. Louis he invented the sofa bed, which incidentally all the sofa beds made today are on his original patents which he held, but of course they run out many years ago. We stayed in St. Louis, then that business grew, the sofa bed business and we went to New York, and he established a factory in New York City. We stayed in New York about two years. Then we went up and built a plant in Toronto, Canada for the Canadian Trade; which incidentally, was the most profitable of all of them from the dollars and cents stand point. Then we moved to Chicago, because he had to build another factory in Chicago for the Middle-West trade. Interviewer: What year would that have been? Kindel: That was in nineteen hundred and ten. Then the business was expanding so fast, and they were putting wood ends or arms on the sofa beds at that time, and he came to Grand Rapids because of the woodworkers in Grand Rapids. As you know Grand Rapids then was probably the best known for the woodworkers than any place in the country. He had many offers to go to other cities, but Grand Rapids seemed to be the most desirable from the woodworkers standpoint. But yet the city of Grand Rapids at that time didn’t want him to come to Grand Rapids. They were trying to keep industry out of Grand Rapids it seemed. And he bought the lot on, between Division and Jefferson on Garden Street. And the city did not cooperate in any way with him; as a matter of fact, there were three streets projected in the plot, they even charged my father for that land when the street were closed up cause they dead ended into railroad tracks. Then he had to have a water main come up from Division Street for high pressure sprinkler protection, and they did not do that, he had to pay for that. Interviewer: Why didn’t they want him to come, what was the reason? Kindel: Well, there was quite a clique in the woodworking games at that time, there were a great many furniture factories of course. And they, back there as I understand it they just didn’t want any industry to come into Grand Rapids because they were jealous of the establishment that they had made. As you know, in nineteen eleven they had a rather severe woodworker’s strike which was difficult to break, and they were afraid that industry coming in here. My father came in spite of that; and in nineteen hundred and fifteen, because Kroehler, the noted upholsterer, was building a sofa bed and infringing on my father’s patents. And although Peter Kroehler was friend of my father’s because my father had been president of the Upholsterers Association, and he told, as he said, told us he said to Pete Kroehler. One day he said, “Pete you and I are going to �5 go to the mat because you know that you’re infringing my patents and as soon as I get straightened around we’re going to take and have a suit.” And Pete Kroehler said, “No we’re not going to have a suit Charlie, I’ll buy you out.” And my father said, “Pete you can’t afford to buy me out,” and Pete Kroehler said, “Well, you name a price.” My father named a price and that was the final sale. So my father sold out and retired at the age of forty-two. And for ten years he agreed to stay out of the bed business. Interviewer: Was he in any other form of furniture business? Kindel: No, he couldn’t go into any furniture business for ten years. Interviewer: When did he resume? Kindel: Then in nine years and nine months the Foote-Reynolds company was available because… Interviewer: When was that? Kindel: In nineteen hundred and twenty four. On January tenth, nineteen twenty-four, Seal Reynolds, who was running the Foote-Reynolds plant died. Mrs. Reynolds was trying to carry on with the business, but she had enormous losses. And when I came back from England then I was to go to work for Kroehler in California, but Mrs. Reynolds wanted to sell the plant. My father [brought in] fact both my brother and myself in the business. Then we bought the original plant that he’d had built here in nineteen thirteen. Interviewer: Did that Foote-Reynolds business have any direct relationship with Mr. Stuart Foote? Kindel: Yes. Stuart Foote of course was a brother in law; and Clare Dexter was a brother-in-law. And Clare Dexter and Foote and Reynolds they bought this factory, and they made four poster beds. Interviewer: But they were also in the business? Besides Mr. Reynolds. Kindel: Well, they financially they were. Stuart Foote you know had the Imperial Furniture Company and then he backed his son Vernon Foote in what they called the Stuart Furniture Company, which is now the Oliver Machinery Company plant on the west side. Interviewer: What was Mr. Dexter’s business? Kindel: He was the President of the Grand Rapids Chair Company, and that was the original Foote family business, the Grand Rapids Chair Company. Then Stuart Foote broke away from that and built the Imperial Furniture Company, to make tables. And of course, it was much more successful than the Grand Rapids Chair Company. �6 Interviewer: Now let’s go back, to where your father started up here in about nineteen twentyfour. What kind of furniture did he manufacture? Kindel: Well we went on making the four poster beds for some time and then we made a convertible day bed. But before, I must go back here Lee, my father’s contract with Kroehler was that he would stay out of business for ten years, and we bought this plant in nine years and nine months. My father called Pete Kroehler and told him what he was doing and that he wouldn’t buy the plant for us if he would violate that agreement. Pete Kroehler said, “Go ahead Charlie, buy it,” that’s the way it worked. And we went on and made day beds that would convert from a day bed to a double day bed. And then in nineteen twenty-nine, we started to make our own case goods, that is the dressers, the chests to go with our four poster beds, and then we expanded into making just bedroom suites. Interviewer: Now the term case goods is, of course, a well known furniture term, but for people who don’t know anything about furniture, can you give us an approximate, a good idea of what that term means? Kindel: Case goods means, a piece of furniture with drawers in it. Interviewer: I see. Kindel: Sometimes we take with liquor cases. Interviewer: Was that included, the bed set, the complete bedroom suite? Kindel: The complete bedroom suite, with night stands, a chiffoniers, chests, dressers, and even the long cheval mirrors. Well then about nineteen fifty, we went into making… we added to our line and made dining room furniture; and we made mahogany exclusively, till about nineteen fifty-five when we felt that the mahogany craze was to be substituted by using lighter furniture like, so we in to make cherry. So we made cherry exclusively up until nineteen sixty-six when we sold the business to the Ball brothers of Muncie, Indiana. Of course, my father died in sixtythree and he was never really active in the management of the business. He always told us, my brother and I, “make your mistakes while I’m living, don’t make them after I’m gone.” Which was, he let us have all the rope we wanted; it was a great association. Interviewer: He lived to a rather advanced age. Kindel: He was ninety-one. Interviewer: Where was he born? Kindel: He was born in Cincinnati, Ohio, of German parentage. Interviewer: You mean Kindel is a German name. �7 Kindel: It’s a German name, unusual spelling because the immigration officer made the mistake when he came into this country at Ellis Island; he spelled the name Kindel, where the original German was Kindl. That’s the same name, so there are very few Kindel’s in this country, that you’d run across. Interviewer: Well now, Mr. Kindel I’m not quite old enough to remember the Depression too well but I am certainly aware of the, that the Kindel Furniture Company continued to manufacture furniture at least during most of that period, and right up until its sale and even thereafter, and apparently was very well established firm and didn’t seem to encounter all the troubles that some of our, many of our furniture companies did and certainly didn’t go out of business as some of them did. To what do you attribute this success of Kindel Furniture Company? Kindel: Well, we were a profitable business and when the Depression came along, luckily we were always trained to take and put anything away that you possibly can. So we started in the Depression with a pretty well capitalized business, because we had been always told that more businesses fail for lack of capital than anything else, and so we did everything to preserve our capital. And another thing, we were told never to let a bill go by, always get the discount, which we did. And so when the depression came along we really modernized; we replaced a great deal of our machinery. Of course I was the factory man, and my brother was the sales end of the business. And we practically replaced a great deal of the machinery for higher speed ball-bearing equipment, and we took business just to keep going. Luckily we had enough capital that we could afford to do it. I don’t think any furniture factory worked more consistently, as we did, we never worked less than four days a week, and we never had a lay-off. So, that we kept pretty good industrial relations with our help. And we were never unionized, because our boys claimed they were getting benefits that the union shops weren’t even getting; so that we had very good industrial relations, as a matter of fact. I just had a girl call me last night that worked for us for twenty-five years; she’s up in, living in a small town in the north up near Cadillac. She just called me to see how I was. And she say, “You know Chuck, we never had a layoff in all the twenty-five years I worked for you, and you were probably the best boss a guy could have.” Well it made me feel good, naturally. We still have an association with…, I see a great many of our men who worked for us for so many years. Interviewer: How many people did your company employ? Kindel: Well during the war, when we were building aircrafts we got up to three hundred and sixty employees, but I’ll say we averaged around two hundred employees as a rule. Interviewer: Now when I was here interviewing Mrs. Kindel two or three weeks ago, time goes so fast, you started that week to talk a little bit about your role during World War Two, and some of the things you did at time. Why don’t you talk about those things right now? �8 Kindel: Well when World War Two came along; it appeared that there would be very little for the furniture companies to do, because it was so different than any other war, material that was being purchased. We came on the idea that we could build parts for aircraft made of wood. I was president of the local Grand Rapids Furniture Manufacturer’s Association at the time, and we called a meeting of the members of the association and we formed a corporation of fifteen of the leading furniture factories. We all put in ten thousand dollars apiece, and with that capital we went scrounging around for business. And luckily when I was at the University of Michigan, in engineering school, I had taken a couple of courses in Aeronautics because it was a hobby with me. That more or less gave me enough nerve to think I knew something about aircraft. As you know [with] an aircrafts you’re fighting weight all the time. And I went out to Fairchild [Aviation Corporation] in Hagerstown, Maryland, and also to Cessna Aircraft and Beech Aircraft in Wichita. Cessna Aircraft got an order for a thousand gliders. That was the CG-4A glider that would carry fifteen men and a howitzer or a jeep. It was a big job and I got an order for a thousand sets of wings. And we came back and started to go through all the blueprints, and you can imagine what it meant to go through a bunch of blueprints in the lot for various factories and the different parts to make. Some of the smaller plants, they made small parts. The Widdicomb Furniture Company, they made the spars, the front spar, which is a rather big chunk of wood. And then the Kindel plant made the rear spars. Then we made the ribs, which were all laminated with plywood and spruce. They, different parts were sent to different assembly plants and then the final assembly was at the Imperial Furniture Company, where these big wings, which were twenty-five… over all the width of the airplane, the width was eighty-five feet. But the longest wing section was twenty-five feet and then there was a shorter one which was about sixteen or seventeen feet long that went on to make the wings of this glider. We ended up making forty-five hundred sets of wings for the glider and we made them for eight of the prime contractors who were building these gliders. And Gibson [Manufacturing] of Greenville [Michigan] was one of these companies, Timm Aircraft of California, the Robertson Aircraft Company in St. Louis, General Aircraft down in the east part of Massachusetts, the Babcock Airplane Company down in Florida, we made their wings for them, and shipped them out of here in great big boxes. The Nicholson-Cox Lumber Company was a member of the firm; they built the… all they did was build boxes to hold these wings. And they were assembled and finished at the Imperial Furniture Company and then boxed there. Then we also had the order for the Stinson L-5 Liaison plane, which we made about four thousand of those, sets of wings for that. And we made every piece of the wood that went in the airplane, that was the emponze(?) of the tail services, even the map cases. We made map cases for the B-29’s; we made parts for the navy. [We] Even made ships wheels, steering wheels. We made numerous parts for other aircraft companies, like ribs, we made the spars for the Taylor Aircraft Company as well as Piper Aircraft. Anything with wood we were specialists in and we did an outstanding job, because our woodworkers were so good here. Then after, when the war ended we had to liquidate it and at that time we were in pretty good cash position, we discussed whether or not we should take and build a dimension plant, that would bring the lumber in and dry it, and cut into small pieces for the different factories, but �9 because we had a bunch of rugged individualists it seemed as though that wasn’t practical because they took the attitude well, you’ll do it for this but you won’t do it for me, and so that never matured so we liquidated it. Interviewer: How many manufacturers were involved in this operation? Kindel: Fifteen factories. Interviewer: There were fifteen factories. Because there were fifteen who put up ten thousand and they all stayed in it? Kindel: Fifteen factories, even little Willie May Burke Company was one of them. Interviewer: I see. Kindel: Bower Furniture Company, William-Kimp Furniture Company, there was both Widdicombes, Mueller Furniture Company, Valley City Desk Company, and of course Kindel had a part in it too. And I was in charge of all production for the plant because that’s the part I like in the furniture business. Interviewer: I was interested in your using the term rugged individualists, describe some of these people some these men in the firm industry at that time, now you had an association with the furniture industry in Grand Rapids for fifty years or there abouts. Who are some of the men you remember best over that period of years who were you might call them giants in this industry in Grand Rapids? Kindel: Well we didn’t have any real giants; Robert W. Irwin probably was one of the most rugged individuals of the lot, and Stuart Foote, of the Imperial Furniture Company and Clare Dexter of the Grand Rapids Chair Company. They were the rugged individualists I would say that wanted to go their own way, and were jealous of anything anybody else did. Interviewer: Now we all know that much of the furniture industry has left Grand Rapids, the companies have either gone out of business or they’ve moved out east, what do you think is the chief reason we have lost so much of total industry to other places? Kindel: Well Lee, I, liken the furniture business to the woolen industry of New England, and the weaver’s in New England, as you know they moved south because of the cheap labor. Grand Rapids I think lost a great deal of their business because the labor rates in the south were so much less, as a matter of fact over the years we used to make surveys and the furniture trades wages were probably forty percent less than the Grand Rapids wages. Grand Rapids of course is noted for its quality and I think that the only survival of the business in Grand Rapids would be only in quality furniture; because we, with our skilled help we can make quality, down in the south they can make quantity. But they just don’t put the quality in that made up here. So people �10 buy Grand Rapids furniture in the most part they are getting their money’s worth, for that’ll be the antique’s of the future. Interviewer: That’s a good way to sum it up. I thought we’d go back and talk about some of the early years when you first came to Grand Rapids; you just mentioned that you built your first car in nineteen twelve. Kindel: Well it was a one cylinder on a car with a twenty-four inch wheel tread and a seventytwo inch wheel base. I remember it so distinctly and my father bought me a second hand motorcycle engine for fifteen dollars and we built that into a car and I learned an awful lot building that car, and I still got the drawing on it. Because my father wouldn’t buy the engine until I made an inked in drawing, and he taught me very early to make a drawing before you start any project. And we moved to Grand Rapids and I still run into people who say they remember the car that I used to drive around here. A little one cylinder putter, but I had a lot of fun doing that I’ve always been a car nut over since. I’ve had all kinds of them and only wish I had some of the old ones now because they’d be classics. But I worked in the machine room, in the tool room as working on milling machines, and shapers and blades between summers because I just loved that kind of stuff. I graduated from Central High school, went on to engineering school in Ann Arbor, and took some automotive courses as well as aviation courses, because it’s my hobby; and then I learned to fly in nineteen hundred and twenty-seven. As a matter of fact I was the first one up to Lindbergh’s plane when he came in here on his tour of May nineteen twenty-seven, because I just a well I’ll admit I’m a screwball. I learned to fly and of course I had a plane, a nice little Stinson plane that I flew for about six years. They say you have to be a little bit crazy. My Father used to say, “It helps.” Interviewer: Where did your family live when you were younger? Kindel: Well we lived at twelve twenty-five Lake Drive which is now the Jonkhoff Funeral Home. Interviewer: That was quite a ways out. Kindel: Yes it was a long way to Central High School, but it didn’t bother me because being a car nut I had a car all the time, a model-T Ford, all the time I was in high school. I remember your mother in school whenever the piano had to be played she was it. Interviewer: Go back to that house the Jonkhoff Funeral Home. Your father built that? Kindel: No, that was built by Orin Starr, Starr was the name and he was as I understand it he was the one who built the Majestic theatre. Interviewer: How do you spell his last name? Kindel: I think it was Starr, if I remember right. �11 Interviewer: It was pronounced stair? Kindel: Stair, and then when we all went away to school my father and mother thought the house was too much of a care and they built this house at seven thirty Plymouth; it was the second house on the block. Interviewer: Who lives there today? Kindel: I don’t know that’s house, my father sold it after my mother’s death to the manager of the Detroit Ball-Bearing Company and then his father who was the organizer to the Detroit Ball, then his father dies and he moved to Detroit, and it was sold to somebody with the telephone company and I’m not sure of their last names either. My father used to say his house isn’t the best; it’s next to the best house, when he talked to Mr. Fitzgerald, who built the house on Plymouth and San Lu Rae. Interviewer: I remember when that house was built, because when the Fitzgeralds lived in the house where we live and they rented it from the Perkins for I don’t know how many months, I remember we moved in November of nineteen twenty-eight, and so by that time Mr. and Mrs. Fitzgerald must have finished that house. Kindel: Yes, Owen Ames Kimball built that house and they moved from my father’s house over to the Fitzgerald house. Owen Ames Kimball built also the Blodgett house. That was previous to my father’s house. Interviewer: I sort of recall my father bringing me out here as just a little boy to see that house under construction, so it must have been something to behold. Kindel: Well, it was beautifully constructed, it’s a beautiful home. So my father used to say I don’t have the best house, I live next to the best house. Interviewer: Where did you and Mrs. Kindel live when you were first married? Kindel: Well when we were first married we married in nineteen twenty-four, and we lived at three thirty-three Briarwood, which was called the brides street at that time, because Chuck Sligh built a house across from me, one of the Keeneys lived there, next door to us, and Clifford Nelson was down the block, and Chucky and Don Steketee also lived on that block. We had a very nice house, and we lived there until nineteen twenty-eight, when we moved over on Cambridge, at four thirty-one Cambridge. We lived there twenty-two years, and then we built this house in nineteen forty-eight. Interviewer: This is a beautiful house. Did you design this house? Kindel: I hate to say I designed it, I laid out the floor plans we wanted, and Ralph Demmon who did this type of architecture we felt the best, we looked over the different architects work. We felt he did this type of house best. I would have liked to have had it all stone but Ralph Demmon �12 talked us out that, he said it was too expensive, and those types of masons are gone. So we only had the front of the house in this Pennsylvania stone. We always like the Pennsylvania type of houses when we’d drive though Pennsylvania and said that’s what we want. And we laid out the house really what we wanted having Ralph Demmon do the real architecture work, because I do know a lot of drafting I’m no architect. Interviewer: Did you previously plan the woodwork? Kindel: Well a lot of this woodwork was made in our plant; all of the woodwork really was done in our plant, like the pine paneling that we have all of the casing moldings, they’re all special. Interviewer: Is there a good deal of Kindel furniture in this house? Kindel: Everything that we could get in that Kindel made is here. Although we have quite a bit of Baker and the rest of the furniture is really Baker. I’ve always said this in my estimation, maybe I’m wrong but Hollis Baker probably was the greatest furniture man in our first half century. He was a real connoisseur. Interviewer: He knew a great deal about furniture and I think he could sell it too. Kindel: Oh, he was a marvelous salesman. But he could take he was discriminating, he knew what was nice. For instance, that octagon table there, you know there’s one out at the club like that and there’s a table over there which House Beautiful said was one of the real classics, that little table right there. Interviewer: That’s a beautiful table. He was a very interesting man; he’s one of the most interesting people I ever knew. Kindel: Well he, we enjoyed him very much and as you know the Huntings, the Bakers and Kindels all bought the Exhibitors Building. Interviewer: That’s right. Why don’t you tell us about that, I’d forgotten that? Kindel: As you know that was the original Fine Arts Building built by Gus Hendricks. And during the war, he had financial troubles, and the city took it over. Then during the war the weather school took that building over for training meteorologists. And the building was in pretty bad disrepair in nineteen forty-five or six, and we got together and bought it from the city, the three of us. And we reconditioned it and we put a hundred and ten thousand dollars in before anybody moved in to it. [End of Side 1] Interviewer: We’re talking about the, what we call the Fine Arts Building across from the Civic Auditorium, and you’ve come to the point where you’d purchased it, and what year was that? �13 Kindel: The latter part of nineteen forty-five we bought the building from the city, because it reverted to them for taxes. And we had Ken Welch do a great deal of the architectural changes that we made in the building and of course, because of its being in despair there was a great deal of plastering to be done, and remodeling the building. And luckily, we were all in the furniture business, we had three spaces rented immediately, because Dave Hunting moved the Steelcase line into the Exhibitor’s Building, and Baker Furniture Company took the second floor, and Kindel Furniture took half of the third floor, and Widdicombe took the back half of the third floor. We brought in come outside exhibitors and it was a success from the start. The furniture market faded out, and Baker Furniture used it as a show room so did John Widdicomb Company, and several other furniture people that used it more as a place where a decorator could take his customers or clients as they call them, and to select furniture. Knapp and Tubbs took over part of the building and then we rented a half of a floor to Aves Advertising Company, another half to the Court of Appeals, which was awaiting the building of the State Building. And of course we had to put in a lot of air conditioning. And we went along very well until Hollis Baker sold the Baker Furniture Company – [I’m] talking about Hollis junior. He decided that some of his wealth should be put in to real estate, and he bought the Kindels and Huntings out. So it’s now wholly owned by Hollis Baker. Interviewer: I want to go back into Grand Rapids furniture history for a minute because I’m sure you could shed some light on some of the famous names of furniture. I’m not talking about individuals as much as I am about companies at this point. Of course one of the names that constantly comes up when you’re talking to people about furniture is Berkey and Gay. Now that company I believe is no longer in existence, but you must remember when it was. And could you tell us about the company and what sort of happened to it? Kindel: Well that’s an interesting saga of course. When I came out of the university my first job in the furniture business, because my father had retired, was at Berkey and Gay Furniture Company, and as you know they had five plants. And if I remember they had about twenty-four hundred employees. It was a big company, of course Bill Gay had died, and the plant was taken over by the three Wallace brothers. They were all salesman, none of them were mechanics. Interviewer: So that was Oliver Wallace and Edward Wallace…? Kindel: No, that was, in the same family, but Ed Wallace and Oliver Wallace were still in school It’s a generation back. And these Wallace brothers were typically fine furniture salesman, but knew nothing of manufacturing. And they got into financial troubles in the early thirties and then the business was auctioned, most of the equipment was auctioned off, and then Frank McKay, he got interested in it and started it up again. That didn’t succeed, and there was another auction. And me being a factory man, I went to all the auctions and did buy some equipment, but I’ve always thought an auction to me was like going to the circus. I loved it. Of course the Luce Furniture Company was very successful before the Depression. That was run by Martin Dregge, and Hamp Holt. Hamp Holt was a good manufacturer. Dregge was a good salesman. They �14 absorbed the Furniture Shops, which had previously been the John D. Raab Chair Company. And they were quite successful and they also took the Michigan Chair Company which was a successful upholstery company. Interviewer: Who owned that company? Kindel: That was owned by Luce Furniture Company, and I’ve forgotten the name of the man that owned the Michigan Chair Company at the time. Then of course, the Sligh Furniture Company, they employed about eight hundred employees at one time. Interviewer: Really? That many? Kindel: They were a good size operation, and very famous of course for their bedroom furniture. I don’t think they made dining room furniture, but they were a big outfit. Interviewer: Eventually Mr. Chuck Sligh went to Holland and went into business will Bill Lowry, but what happened to the Sligh Furniture Company? Kindel: The Sligh Furniture Company was being run by Norman McClave, and somehow or other he and Chuck didn’t get along too well. Chuck Sligh went down to Holland with Bill Lowry, who is a one of the top production men and an engineer, and they started the Sligh Furniture Company in Holland. Guess they called it the Sligh-Lowry Company, and they’ve been very successful. Chuck Sligh of course is a fine salesman, and I admire him very much. Interviewer: As I recall it they made some really beautiful desks? Kindel: No, they weren’t beautiful desks. I don’t agree with you on that, they were production desks. Interviewer: Production desks. Kindel: And not the kind you’d see in the White House. Interviewer: Did you see any Grand Rapids Furniture in the White House? Kindel: I don’t know, there are some beautiful breakfronts down there, but I think most of those pieces are antiques. Interviewer: I guess they have the Sousaski[?] rugs? Kindel: Well I didn’t notice the rugs; I was looking more at the furniture, because your furniture is in your blood. Interviewer: Resuming our discussion of present furniture factories that are in existence in Grand Rapids, we started to mention a few of them and I suggested you talk about some of those. �15 Kindel: Well we still have the John Widdicomb Company, and they make very fine furniture. The Master-Craft Furniture make occasional pieces. Interviewer: And they’re the company still owned by the family? Kindel: And that’s still owned by the family. The John Widdicomb Company is owned by Hickory Furniture Company, Hickory, North Carolina. The Johnson Furniture Company who are famous for making quality furniture is owned by Holiday Inns now. The Hekman Furniture Company, which started in about nineteen twenty-three or four is owned by Beatrice Foods. The Imperial Furniture Company is owned by Chicago Musical Instruments Company. The Kindel Furniture Company is owned by Ball Brothers of Muncie, Indiana that make mason jars, part of their conglomerate. I understand Colonial Clock Company from Zeeland who have a plant in the old Berkey and Gay, Plant One has been sold recently to somebody else and I don’t know who bought it. That’s been sold but, there are very few family businesses left and the only one that I can think of that really amount to very much is Mastercraft and Ralph Morse Furniture Company is owned by Jim Alexander, and he also owns Fine-Arts Furniture, which makes very nice occasional pieces. Interviewer: These companies are relatively small I would assume. Kindel: Well, there are no big plants, no big companies in Grand Rapids left now, I don’t think there’s any plant that employs more than three hundred people. Interviewer: What would that be? Kindel: That might be Imperial Furniture Company who are making organ cases and jukebox cases, and some television cabinets. I guess the next or second one would be John Widdicombe; they probably employ two hundred and twenty-five or so. I don’t know how many Kindel has now, but KindelError! Bookmark not defined., we bought the Valley City Furniture Company plant at auction for our chair operation and that is still being operated by the Ball Brothers as Kindel Plant Number Two. They make dining room chairs and also they are making a line of occasional tables which are very nice. Then they rented a part of the Allen Calculator Company and that is their upholstery division. They’re making upholstered furniture. Interviewer: Well let’s leave the topic of furniture for a minute and, you mentioned a while back when we were talking with the machine off that you had collected barometers and stored some of them and put them in good working order. How did you happen to get interested in that? Kindel: Well barometers have been a hobby of mine for the last 25 years. I bought the first one in Canada, in Toronto at an antique shop; it wasn’t working and I made it work. And then I picked up a couple more and on a trip in nineteen forty-nine to England, I brought ten of them back in the trunk of my car, and the customs officer said to me, “What are you going to do with all that junk?” Well that’s part of my hobby and I fixed them all up, restored them and made them work; �16 then I’ve had some shipped in from England since. And everybody in town thinks if their barometer’s not working they can call Chuck Kindel. I had a call one day from a woman friend of ours here, I didn’t know her but I knew him and she said she bought a barometer in Chicago and the porter had tipped it over on the train coming back and broke the mercury tube and she said if my husband knows how much I paid for that and then broke the tube he’d shoot me. So I immediately fixed her barometer for her that same day, and when he came back from his fishing trip he saw the barometer and never knew that it had been busted. Then Marshall-Fields when they would sell an antique barometer in this territory they would expect me to service it for them. I got a call one a day from the head of Marshall-Fields antique department, and said that they had a customer that had bought a barometer and wouldn’t pay for it because he said it wasn’t working. And they gave me the name and so on my way home from work that night I stopped and it happened to be Bennett Ainsworth’s wife Emily who I had been in school with, Emily Hine, and I said I’m from Marshall Fields, she said, “Chuck Kindel what are you doing working for Marshal Fields?” Well I said, “I service the barometers.” I took it and fixed it for them. Interviewer: Did they ever pay you for this service? Kindel: No it was part of the courtesy when you do business with Marshall-Fields, you do those things. Interviewer: You were doing business with Marshall-Fields? Kindel: Yes, Marshall-Fields were very good customers of ours. Interviewer: How much volume did you business do? Kindel: I believe at the time about four million, four and a half million dollars a year. Interviewer: That’s respectable. Kindel: Yes, if you can make it profitable. Interviewer: Well I think that this has been a delightful afternoon and I have enjoyed talking to you. Kindel: Why don’t we have a drink? Interviewer: That sounds like a good idea why don’t we shut her off. �17 INDEX A Ainsworth, Bennett · 18 Ainsworth, Emily · 18 Allen Calculator Company · 17 Aves Advertising Company · 14 Fitzgerald, Mrs. · 12 Foote, Stuart · 6, 10 Foote, Vernon · 6 Foote-Reynolds Company · 5, 6 Ford, Jerry · 1, 2, 3 Ford, President · 1 Frank McKay · 15 Furniture Manufacturer’s Association · 8 Furniture Shops · 15 B Baker Furniture Company · 14 Baker, Hollis · 13, 14 Ball Brothers · 16, 17 Behler, Gerald · 3 Behler-Young company · 3 Berkey and Gay Furniture Company · 14, 16 Blodgett house · 12 Bower Furniture Company · 10 C Cassidy, Richard · 3 Central High School · 11 Chaffee, Roger · 3 Chicago Musical Instruments Company · 16 Civic Auditorium · 14 D Demmon, Ralph · 13 Depression · 7, 15 Detroit Ball-Bearing Company · 12 Dexter, Clare · 6 Dregge, Martin · 15 G Gay, Bill · 15 Gibson Manufacturing · 9 Grand Rapids Chair Company · 6, 10 H Hekman Furniture Company · 16 Hendricks, Gus · 13 Herkommer, Marianna · 1 Hickory Furniture Company · 16 Holt, Hamp · 15 Hunting, Dave · 14 I Imperial Furniture Company · 6, 9, 10, 16, 17 Irwin, Robert W. · 10 J John D. Raab Chair Company · 15 John Widdicomb Company · 14, 16 Jonkhoff Funeral Home · 11 E Engle brothers · 3 Exhibitors Building · 13, 14 F Fine Arts Building · 13, 14 Fitzgerald, Mr. · 12 K Kindel Furniture Company · 7, 9, 10, 14, 16 Kindel, Charles J. · 1 Kindel, Charles M. · 1 Kindl, Gabriel · 1 Knapp and Tubbs · 14 Kroehler, Peter · 5, 6 �18 L Lowry, Bill · 15, 16 Luce Furniture Company · 15 Reynolds, Mrs. · 5 Reynolds, Seal · 5 Roosevelt, Teddy · 2 S M MacLear, Jessie M. · 1 MacLear, Thomas · 1 Marshall-Fields · 17, 18 Master-Craft Furniture · 16 McClave, Norman · 15 Michigan Chair Company · 15 Mueller Furniture Company · 10 Sligh Furniture Company · 15, 16 Sligh, Chuck · 12, 15, 16 Sligh-Lowry Company · 16 Starr, Orin · 11 Steketee, Chuck and Don · 12 Stuart Furniture Company · 6 T N Trinity Methodist Church · 1, 3 Nelson, Clifford · 12 Nicholson-Cox Lumber Company · 9 V O Valley City Desk Company · 10 Valley City Furniture Company · 17 van Asmus, Katrina C. · 1 Oliver Machinery Company · 6 Owen Ames Kimball · 12 P Perch, Ed · 3 R Reynolds, Mary E. · 1 Reynolds, Mr. · 6 W Wallace, Edward · 15 Wallace, Oliver · 15 Welch, Ken · 14 Widdicomb Furniture Company · 9 Wiersma brothers · 3 William-Kimp Furniture Company · 10 Willie May Burke Company · 10 World War Two · 8 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/413757ff7cc64b85bb815e3535674eed.mp3 a84d6c1084d1aef3ff4e72a4ade2de03 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_49Kindel Title A name given to the resource Kindel, Charles MacLear Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kindel, Charles MacLear Description An account of the resource Charles Kindel was born in Colorado in 1899. His father was in the furniture business. He married Katrina C. van Asmus in 1924 and eventually took her place as trustee of the Starr Commonwealth. He was President Ford's boy scout leader in the 1920s. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1975 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a513f0e0a21751c37e8c719d5ae082d3.pdf 4ce6a2ec41c82e5d996448f3eacdbf0f PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mrs. Charles Kindel Interviewed on February 10, 1975 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010- bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #48 (54:23) Biographical Information Mrs. Kindel was born Katrina Cup van Asmus on 13 August 1904 in Evanston, Illinois. She was the daughter of Edward Cup van Asmus and Helen Hurlbut Long. Katrina married Charles MacLear Kindel on 8 November 1924. Mrs. Kindel died in Grand Rapids on 1 April 1987. Mr. Kindel died in Grand Rapids on 10 September 1982. Edward Cup van Asmus and Helen Hurlbut Long were married in Grand Rapids on 16 September 1897. Edward was born 10 January 1871 in Grand Rapids, the son of Henry David Cup van Asmus and Marie Elizabeth Vanderfield. Edward died on 20 June 1941. Helen H. Long was born on 25 August 1872 in Grand Rapids, the daughter of George H. Long and Catherine Sheller. Helen died on 7 November 1951. For the Kindel family, see Mr. Charles Kindel’s Oral History transcription. ___________ Interviewer: Mrs. Kindel before we started I was able to take a quick look from a book called Illinois Lives which contains a biographical sketch of yourself and other natives of Illinois. I must say I was surprised that you were not born in Grand Rapids. Although before that you told me that your grandfather came here back in the middle of the nineteenth century. Why don’t you go back to that period and tell us about your grandfather if you can remember much about him or tell us about what brought him to this company and a little of that history. I can hold this for you or whatever you want. Mrs. Kindel: Both my grandfathers came here from other places the Dutch grandfather came here at the time, after the Civil War and married and settled down in Grand Rapids. And my other grandfather came from Pennsylvania. Lewistown Pennsylvania. He was in the lumber business in Michigan and he married here and lived here and had ten children here. And they lived here until adulthood; some of them went elsewhere. Some of them remained here. I don’t know too much about the two grandfathers. The one in the lumber business was very successful and the Dutch grandfather founded the Board of Trade. He was the first secretary of the Board of Trade and he was a very cultured man well educated and understood fine paintings and prints and horticulture all the lovely things. Interviewer: What was his name Mrs. Kindel? �2 Mrs. Kindel: His name was van Asmus. HDC Henry David Cup van Asmus. Interviewer: And the other grandfathers name? Mrs. Kindel: The other one was George B. Long. L O N G and they lived on Sheldon. Sheldon then was a lovely street with beautiful trees, and Victorian homes. Now it’s a CIO Headquarters. Interviewer: Is the house still standing? Mrs. Kindel: No the house came down when CIO went up. Interviewer: I guess that was quite a nice street the Caufields lived down there and many of the old people. Mrs. Kindel: Burnses and the Caufields, and the Sinclairs, Doctor Sinclair, and the Longs. Interviewer: You must be related to the Duffys then? Mrs. Kindel: Yes. Mrs. Duffy was one of the sisters, my mother’s sisters; and Mrs. Homiller and Mrs. McPherson. They were all sisters. Interviewer: That’s right. I used to here the Caulfield sisters talked about. Of course they lived down the street. Mrs. Kindel: Yeah. They were a great family. Lots of fun. The Woodcocks lived on the corner across from the Caufields. There were two Woodcock boys. And then the Sinclairs; that was Jean Sinclair who became Mrs. Curtis Interviewer: Doctor Sinclair brought my mother into the world. Mrs. Kindel: Probably. Interviewer: I don’t remember it but I remember my mother talking about it. Mrs. Kindel: That’s interesting. Well then kitty-corner across was the Burnses you know. Interviewer: Tom Burns. Mrs. Kindel: Yes. I couldn’t think of his first name. Interviewer: I think that was his name. Mrs. Kindel: yeah. Interviewer: Well however were you born in Evanston? Mrs. Kindel: I was born in Evanston, Illinois and moved away from there when I was two years old, and lived in a number of different places. I was raised in New York really, about fourteen �3 years in New York City. And I lived in Denver, I lived in Kansas City, Missouri, moved around, until I was married I never lived in Grand Rapids. Interviewer: Did you come here for visits? Mrs. Kindel: Came here to visit with aunts and grandparents and so forth. That’s when I met my husband. Interviewer: What went on when you came for visits? Mrs. Kindel: Oh boy. I just loved it because I lived in New York where we didn’t have a nice little social life and I thought it was great to come here where there were parties every morning noon and night and tea dances. Boy we put on Christmas seasons that would shame this generation, we had a good time and I loved it very much. I loved the young people. Well I just sort of feel like I belong to Grand Rapids, after all, my mother was born here and raised here and my father was too. But they never lived here after they were married. Interviewer: What did your father do? Mrs. Kindel: He was an investment broker. Interviewer: And he moved from place to place? Mrs. Kindel: Yes. Except, well New York was the longest place we stayed in one place. I went to Horace Mann School in New York which as I look back on it is a perfectly marvelous school. And then I went to Dana Hall in Wellesley and I never went to college. Got boy-crazy about then. Interviewer: Was Dana Hall a Junior College or was it a finishing school? Mrs. Kindel: No it was a finishing school. Interviewer: I think it’s a junior college now but I’m not… Mrs. Kindel: Pine Manor is. Interviewer: Oh it’s Pine Manor. Mrs. Kindel: Yeah, Pine Manor. Interviewer: Well now you were married in what year were you married? Mrs. Kindel: Twenty-four. Interviewer: Twenty-four, and you had met Mr. Kindel before, on one of your visits to Grand Rapids? �4 Mrs. Kindel: Yes. Yes but he asked me to marry him the first date we ever had. Interviewer: Oh really. Mrs. Kindel: And we were married six weeks from the next day. So that was a whirlwind courtship. Interviewer: I’d say so. And Mr. Kindel has always been in the furniture business I believe. Mrs. Kindel: Yes. He graduated from Michigan and worked for Berkey and Gay; and then his father bought back this plant that he had built originally and Chuck became production manager and remained there until he sold it. Interviewer: Now that’s a very famous name in Grand Rapids furniture. Mrs. Kindel: For quality it is. Interviewer: Quality, bedroom furniture particularly? Mrs. Kindel: Yes they started with just they call it case goods and then they branched out. They made dining room furniture; they don’t make any upholstered pieces. Just dining room and bedroom tables, and occasional tables. Father Kindel invented the folding davenport bed that you’re familiar with. The Kroehler bed. All those patents of his were his. He sold them to Kroehler. Interviewer: Well that’s interesting to know. I think that someone once told me that Mr. F. Stuart Foote invented the coffee table. Mrs. Kindel: Did he? Interviewer: He just cut off the legs of a table of sorts. Mrs. Kindel: Well that was easy. Interviewer: When you came here when you were married and started to live here, how long did it take you before you got interested in the organization in which I and many other people associate you, mainly the Kent County Humane Society? Mrs. Kindel: Well, my mother and I have been interested in New York in humane society work. As a girl twelve years old with a pigtail down my back I used to solicit money for different humane societies at the Madison Square Garden entrance to the arena when they’d have the horse shows on. I’d had a table out there with some of mother’s friends chaperoning and I started doing that. Then I, after I was married, it wasn’t very long when I heard such distressing stories, there was no society functioning in Grand Rapids. There was a society the Kent County Humane Society but it wasn’t doing anything. So I always had a lot of nerve I guess. Mr. Talmadge, a very delightful old gentleman, Bill Talmadge, was the president. I went down and called and �5 made an appointment and went to see him and I told him what I thought in no uncertain terms that they should have a functioning humane society and so forth. So we talked it over and he said you know I’ve just been waiting for you. He said we need young blood; we need somebody to do something. Well so we decided that we would reorganize and he would name half of a board of directors and I would name half. Very informally done. This is the way we started, restarted, the Kent County Humane Society which is one of the oldest in the country. I think it was started way back in the sixties or seventies, I forget now. But it’s a very old one. Anyways we started off and such wonderfully fine men and women helped us. We had Chief O’Malley on the board for a number of years. He was a great police chief and a wonderfully fine person. We umm what’s his name, Mr. McPherson an attorney in town, of great ability, a great horseman. And Mrs. G. A. Hendricks was a club woman who knew how to run publicity and do things… I learned so much from the men and women who came on that board. It was a great group of them. Interviewer: Well what year was this? Mrs. Kindel: Well, I think it was in the late twenties, it was about nineteen thirty I think. Interviewer: About nineteen thirty? Mrs. Kindel: Um Hum Interviewer: But they’d actually been in existence for sixty or seventy years. Mrs. Kindel: Yes. Interviewer: Doesn’t look like they’ve done very much. Mrs. Kindel. They had a small amount of money. The Michigan Trust kept it intact and they paying the legal aid office four hundred dollars a year, I think that’s all they realized on this little investment, they gave that to the Legal Aid Office to answer the telephone which was listed Humane Society. Well that was perfectly ridiculous to pay them four hundred a year for half a dozen calls, you know. So we severed that arrangement and started on our own. We did pretty well through the years; we never had a shelter but we wanted one and needed it badly so George Welsh was city manager and Ad Carroll was chief of Police and both of them were friends. So I went to them with my tale of woe and they were then using for the pound a lean-to down on the public market. It was just an awful shack. Cold and hot, with summer, cold in the winter and so forth and they ended by giving me supervision of it. The city commission voted that me as supervisor of the pound, at a dollar a year I was a “dollar a year man”, and we met I don’t recall just how long we continued that way, but as long as we did. And then W.P.A. labor came in and they arranged to use that labor and build a pound and they let me plan it. And when Mr. Kammeraad [Peter Kammeraad] was city manager and he’s very kind, he let me come down to city hall and we really built what was a nice animal shelter. It was modern and up-to-date in every way. And I had three men that were working for me and two cars. That was my equipment. �6 I had to do all the buying through the purchasing agent of the city. And be responsible for all that went on and we, we had a rabies epidemic during that time and I had to put an unlisted phone in, the public became so irate over certain things and they’d take it out on me. I had a strenuous time with that pound, but it provided us with a humane shelter. And a number of years went by and unfortunately I had osteoarthritis, with severe headaches I just couldn’t continue. So I asked on my board who would take over that appointment if I could get the City Commission to name one of them as supervisor so we could still keep hold of that. Nobody would take that responsibility, nobody would do the work. So I had to bow out and just let it go as it went. Well fortunately it had some ups and downs and troubles but right now it’s going very nicely and they had a drive, raised two-hundred thousand dollars and built a lovely modern shelter with every convenience and everything they need. And they seem to be functioning, raising money well and I’m awfully pleased and happy about them. Interviewer: Has this been a private agency? Mrs. Kindel: They always Interviewer: But you did your purchasing you said through the city. Mrs. Kindel: Well that’s when I managed the pound, when the pound was my shelter. Interviewer: Where was that located? Mrs. Kindel: Down across the river where, down where the big public market is. Do you know where I mean? Interviewer: Well, I’m not sure. Mrs. Kindel: Gee I can’t think. Grandville Avenue. That, down that way. Interviewer: Where is the new facility? Mrs. Kindel: The new one is, is out, my memory. It’s west… Interviewer: On the other side of the river? Mrs. Kindel: Oh yes. It will come to me I think. Interviewer: Maybe I should know. I can’t think offhand. Mrs. Kindel: Yeah we both should know. It’s on the, I’ll put it in when I get it. Interviewer: Well you can always look it up. Mrs. Kindel: Yeah. I can look it up in the phone book, right here. Interviewer: Ok. I’ll just switch it off. �7 Mrs. Kindel: Northwest. Interviewer: What was that address again? Mrs. Kindel: Eighteen ninety Bristol Northwest. Kent County Humane Society. Interviewer: And how much of a staff do they have today, I presume they have a director. Mrs. Kindel: They had a women manager, a Mrs. Pullen. I don’t know what their staff consists of, I’m ashamed to say. I haven’t been out there lately, in the last year. I don’t know. They have several… Well it takes, I think they have two cars; they’ve had two cars, two drivers and then shelter people to keep that place clean and feed the animals. And put them to sleep when their time is done and so forth. It takes quite a few. Interviewer: How large a membership? Mrs. Kindel: It takes money; I don’t know what they’re doing now. I’m not at all involved in it. I send them a check. I’ve done so many years of it I just keep out. Interviewer: Pretty close to forty years, I would say. Mrs. Kindel: Yeah. Interviewer: That’s quite a record. Mrs. Kindel: Well I didn’t even stop there you know. Then I got the bright idea that it would be nice to have a state federation of Humane Societies. So about a year or two after I got this one, I sent out letters to every society in the state that I could find and asked them to come here to a meeting at the YMCA; and we incorporated that day the Michigan Federation of Humane Societies. And it had quite a history. We did a lot of different things. We put wayside zoos under a law to regulate them. We had a member of the state police. Captain Scavarda was appointed by the police to serve on our state board. And he was just of great value. He came to every meeting I think and brought us always a report of how many humane cases the state police handled during the interim. And of course that was terrific coverage. We just went to town on it. We had trouble with Mackinaw Island. They don’t have any… they have a lot of horses up there, you know, and they never had a veterinarian on the island. And these horses were overworked and underfed and everything. We had an awful time for many years. I went to governors about it and I tried to get on a Island Commission to fight Murphy, asked him if he’d appoint me on it and a newspaperman from up north somewhere told him not to do it. They didn’t want a nosy woman on the Park Commission so I didn’t get on it. But there were problems all over the state that had to be taken care of. In nineteen thirty-four, that was drought year. I don’t know whether this is going to shut me up. Interviewer: No, no. this is exactly what we want. I’m sure. �8 Mrs. Kindel: In nineteen thirty-four was a drought year and Michigan was declared a secondary drought area which meant that reduced rates on shipping of animals but no additional feed was shipped into here. And we had starving animals and farmers were just crazy. I was swamped with phone calls and letters and help, help. So what to do, I didn’t know how to get enough money to handle it. So I wrote Eleanor Roosevelt and she moved like chain lightening. She gave my communication to, what was the man who was head of welfare? For her? Well I’ll have to think of that again. Gave him this and he wired me and said no farm animal need starve. And he released immediately three-hundred thousand dollars in federal Relief money in the state of Michigan to buy feed for the cattle which was just a god send. That was the, I received national recognition for that little job which was very satisfying and all due to Eleanor Roosevelt. Well anyway the Michigan Federation went along through the years and next month they’re having a meeting, I’ve just received a notice and I felt so happy when I saw it because it’s so well thought out and planned. They’re functioning as I would like to have them do and it makes me feel happy about it. So that was that. Then I got the bright idea, our national association was sort of monkeying along and not doing a great deal and a man from the east whom I knew well in the work, and I were both disgruntled about it. So we called a meeting in Chicago of seven states, the seven states surrounding us here. And we organized what we called the Midwest Humane Conference. And these states, we had an annual meeting and then we had directors’ meetings in between. But they took they furnished fresh ideas and programming and, and helped to the struggling societies through the seven states. And that also is still going. They’re having their annual meeting in May this year. So those are my babies. I served as their president for the first years. So that’s what I did. What else have I done? Then I got interested in Starr Commonwealth through Mr. Floyd Starr, who was just a saint of course, he was a marvelous person. And I served twenty-odd years on his board and as a few years as vice-president of the school. Interviewer: Why don’t you tell about that because I’m sure that there will be people in future years who will be interested to know and may not be familiar with it. So why don’t you talk about the Starr Commonwealth a little bit. Mrs. Kindel: Well, Mr. Starr as a young boy got the idea that he wanted to take care of boys. And he had a farm with quite a bit of acreage. He named the little house Gladsome Cottage, and he had a handful of boys to start with. They were [came] through the courts, some come through their parents, and some through agencies, but they’re boys with problems. And he has had a phenomenal success. At one time, it was a ninety point two [percent], I think, success; those boys never repeated or went into further crime. He loves these boys and he has an understanding, a natural psychology, of handling them so that he brings them into real manhood. We have ministers and writers and teachers and all sorts of professions among them. And the school is just, it would do credit to any private school. The campus is simply beautiful, and the buildings are lovely. He never builds a building unless he has the money right in his hands to do it. Interviewer: And where is this located? Mrs. Kindel: Albion, Michigan. �9 Interviewer: In Albion, yeah. Is it out in the country? Mrs. Kindel: Yes. I don’t know what the total acreage is. It used to be twenty-five hundred acres. He’s bought up farms when they would be in the distressed sales, you know. He’s built these cottages, he calls them, but they’re really brick, English-type houses and he has a house pair, a father and mother, house parents, in each cottage. And the school system is, has to be, of course, meet the state qualifications and requires a very high type of teacher, which makes it very costly too. We have to have better teachers than the public schools would have. And the same thing now is true with Social Service. We didn’t used to have to conform to that, but we do now; he has quite a Social Service department. And it has beautiful gymnasium and beautiful auditoriums. And friends of his in Detroit built his home, which is a beautiful home that he used to live in for life on the campus. And he believes in prayer and the efficacy of prayer for everything. And these boys have been taught to pray when they needed anything, even when there was just a handful of them. They needed a school building, and he had women he employed that would go around into the different towns and solicit money for schools, or for the school. And this one, who came into Grand Rapids, went to see Mrs. Emily Jewell Clark one day and tell her about what was going on and what progress had been made and what they needed. And they needed a school building. And Mrs. Clark said, “Well have you got the plans for it? What did you want, how did you want it?” “Well,” she said, “there are plans down at school.” And Mrs. Clark said, “Well you get them and come back.” So this lady went and got the plans and came back to her with them, and laid them out, and Mrs. Clark studied it and she said, “I’ll build that building for Starr.” So, in those days many, many years ago it was about five hundred thousand dollars, now I suppose it would be a million. It was a beautiful building. But the interesting thing is that Mr. Starr had this little group of boys pray for the school building. They needed it. He said, “We need that now, and we’ll pray and ask God to give that to us.” And that’s what they do. The people who gave him his home, the man was very ill in Florida one winter and they phoned back to the school and they said, “Floyd, get your praying group together.” And he had those boys, he organized them so they prayed all day and all night, right around the clock, he had this group going. And this man recovered. And he was so pleased of course, the family was so happy, that they gave him his lovely home. Well the place is full of stories like that. Interviewer: Sure. Mrs. Kindel: It’s just an inspiration to be with him. Norman Peale dedicated the chapel, which is a lovely one, and when he was talking to the boys he said, “You know there’s a term that I don’t use lightly in talking, but,” he said, “I must here.” He said, “Uncle Floyd Starr is Christ-like.” And that’s really what he is. He is a very spiritually-minded man. He’s ninety-one years old and just as sharp as he can be. He wants to run everything, which is a little bit difficult right now, at that age you know, so we try to keep him busy off-campus, send him on trips and so forth. But he’s a remarkable person. And it’s enriched my life so. Mrs. Ruth Rhoda, Ruth Bryan Rhoda, was a trustee for several years and became a dear friend of mine. I enjoyed her so much. And Jesse Stuart, the contemporary writer, is another friendship I have made through there. All interesting people; very worthwhile. Interviewer: You spoke of the, Mrs. Clark’s gift of the, of one of the first large buildings I take it. About when do you suppose that was made? Back in the twenties? Or before that? Mrs. Kindel: It was before I knew them, any of them down there. So I imagine it was the twenties. Wasn’t that a lovely thing to do? �10 Interviewer: Yes. You know she did quite a lot for the Art Museum, when it was called the Art Gallery. Of course, many people still do call it that. And very often I see a painting which was given by her, or in memory of her. There must be a great many of them, especially American paintings of the early twentieth century, late nineteenth century. Mrs. Kindel: What was Mary Perkins’s maiden name? Interviewer: Wilcox. Mrs. Kindel: Wilcox. Mrs. Wilcox gave Wilcox Cottage to the school, and that’s sort of an interesting story. Her son Raymond, the landscape man, was a member of a firm in Detroit. Mr. Starr never hesitates to ask for anything and he usually gets it, and he went to this landscape outfit and told them he’d like to have this property landscape planned. And they assigned him to young Mr. Raymond, who I guess was a young man then. And so, he drew these plans up. And he took them home to his mother’s one time. And he said, “You know Mother,” and he showed these to her and told her the story and everything, “There’s something you could do.” “Well what could I do?” “Well,” he said, “you see where this spot is right here?” He said, “You could build them Wilcox Cottage.” And she did. It’s a lovely home there, still functioning. But he did a lot; the landscaping is just beautiful, the whole place. Interviewer: Well I guess he was a very noted—or is, a very noted landscape architect, he’s still living. Mrs. Kindel: Well Mr. Starr just walks in and says, he went in to a gentlemen, I don’t know his name and I don’t know him, Mr. Kindel does, but Floyd knew about him, and he, one afternoon, was in his town, so he went to the door and introduced himself as Mr. Starr. And he said, “I wonder if I could take the opportunity of telling you about my boys.” Cold turkey this is, no appointments or anything, so in he goes and sits down and tells this gentlemen all about the boys and about the school and everything. [He] goes out with a check for seventy-five thousand dollars in his hands, clutched firm. A building. I used to sit at a board meeting, Frank Dean, do you know Frank Dean from Albion? He’s an architect. Interviewer: No, I don’t know him. Mrs. Kindel: He built Evelyn Avery’s house, he was that architect. Well, he’s lots of fun. He used to sit next to me at board meetings. He’d say, “Now wait a minute, he’s going to open that middle drawer and there’s going to be a check in there for a hundred thousand.” Well, truly, everything comes to this man. He’s something really remarkable. Michigan—I don’t know they know or appreciate him. He’s very different. Interviewer: I think he’s probably one of the best known citizens in the state, and has been for a great many years. Mrs. Kindel: He’s a darling. Interviewer: Are you still on that board? �11 Mrs. Kindel: No. Teddy served on it, and Chuck served on it, and I served on it. We’re all off of it now. But we’d go down there quite frequently. We’re very fond of him. And he comes up here; when things get going and he doesn’t like it and he can’t understand some modern ideas, he comes up here and cries on our shoulder. [To dog] Joey! Interviewer: [to dog] Sit down. Mrs. Kindel: It’s an inspiration to have known him and to be associated with him. We think it’s a real privilege. Interviewer: How many boys do they have at Starr Commonwealth? Mrs. Kindel: An average of a hundred and seventy-five. Interviewer: So it’s not really terribly big. Mrs. Kindel: No. Interviewer: But it gives them a chance to work closely with each boy. Mrs. Kindel: Yeah, they have to have them in smaller groups I imagine. They have some tall stories; they have murders, they have thievery, rape, arson, you name it, book’s thrown at them and everything. But they sure handle it. I’ve walked with Mr. Starr around campus, and the worst he’ll ever say about a boy is, “He’s a pill.” He’ll put his arm around a boy and say, “Katrina, now he’s just a pill.” Never anything worse than that. But he just expresses such love, it’s remarkable. Interviewer: Just taking a look at our tape here. I think, oh yes, we have quite a long—a few minutes left on this side. I don’t want to keep you all day. In the, I’ve known of course that you, at one point, had quite a large collection of Lincoln books and letters and papers of all sizes, types. How did your interest, where did you interest in Abraham Lincoln develop? Mrs. Kindel: Abraham Lincoln? Well that’s World War II. My son was going to be inducted, and I thought I’d take him over to Chicago, we’d go see, Oklahoma was the big musical show you know, we’d go over and get cheered up a little, because I was blue as blue could be. So, over we went and I had read somewhere an advertisement for the Abraham Lincoln Bookshop. And I’d always enjoyed reading things about Mr. Lincoln, I didn’t know very much, but, we decided we’d look this shop up. So we went down in the Loop in an office building, way up on some high floor were these three little rooms, about ten by ten all of them, no bigger, and the young man who owned this bookshop, Ralph Newman, the enthusiast of all enthusiasts and a brilliant intellect, wonderfully interesting person, greeted us. Well, we just had about an hour; it was perfectly wonderful listening to him. And he said to me, “Why don’t you collect Lincolniana?” “Oh,” I said, “I don’t know enough to do a thing like that.” I said, “I’m not a college woman,” I said, “I haven’t been educated that way, and I don’t know that I’d know anything about it. I couldn’t collect a thing like that.” “Well,” he said, “there’s nothing to that.” He said, “I’ll make a checklist for you and as we get each item we’ll check against it and,” he said, “I’ll help you.” Well, that sounded reasonable. So I said Ok, I’d start. And I think I bought two or three books. And then I bought a little memo, Lincoln wrote many of them, similar ones. This one says on it, “I suppose there be a charge against this man, but if there is none, let him be discharged.” Signed A. Lincoln and dated sixty-three I think. So we bought that. And that was our �12 introduction to Lincoln. And Ted went off to the wars and I continued with the Lincoln collection. Well when it grew to be about seven hundred volumes and I loved it, I enjoyed reading it and enjoyed handling it, but of course, a collection like that has to go under the Fine Arts Policy and has to be catalogued in duplicate. There were mechanical things about taking care of it that got me as my hands got worse with arthritis and I foresaw that it was beyond me, it was getting beyond me. So I sent out the word to a few places that I wanted to dispose of it. Well a librarian came from Iowa Wesleyan and one from Central Michigan, and Calvin, that’s three that came here, all wanted it. And then I talked with my son. I didn’t think he was interested to take care of it. I said, “Teddy. What about it now, seriously? Think of this. Do you want it? You have to take the responsibility of taking care of it. It isn’t just like other books that sell for a couple of dollars here and there.” Trying to impress upon him. Well he said, “Mother, I always thought it would be mine.” And he said, “Just because it’s yours, I’d want it.” Well that settled it. I said alright. So by-golly I wrapped up each little volume and we shipped them out to Ted. And he has them in Vail, Colorado. And the joke on him is that people know he has it; so, right now he was telling me on the phone last week that he has three speaking engagements on Mr. Lincoln as his birthday approaches on the twelfth. So he has to go and speak in the schools now; this, I don’t think he’s too crazy about but it’s part of being the owner of that library. So that’s where the Lincoln Library is. And then I, Mr. Newman suggested, he said, “Why don’t you collect books by the women? About and by the women of the Civil War.” Which I am doing. And I don’t know, I haven’t counted them. I think there’s about two, three hundred there. And it’s very interesting reading. They’re smart girls, those women were. And I have a number of letters; I’ve got several letters of Mrs. Lincoln’s, I have a letter of Mrs. Jefferson Davis, and I have Mrs. Lee, and Mrs. Freemont, General Freemont’s wife. What other ones do I have? Well I have several letters of those women, I’d like more. So that’s what my collection business is now. But I’m always buying books, my book bills are something. I love poetry. That first section is all poetry. Interviewer: This is a very beautiful room. What are the dimensions of it? Mrs. Kindel: It’s forty-five…is it forty-five or thirty-five? Oh Lord. Honestly, my memory dearie. I couldn’t tell you. Interviewer: Well, it’s at least thirty-five, maybe a little longer than that I’d say. Mrs. Kindel: Yeah. It’s twenty, the bay window from there over here is twenty, I know that. That’s twenty. And this is less. Interviewer: It breaks into nice individual units. Mrs. Kindel: Yeah. Well we built it this way, because in our other home, we had what was a sunroom, it was that vintage of a house, and we made it into a little library. And everybody always sat in the little room; no one ever sat in the living room. So we thought when we built this we would put the books and put everything in here, and this is it. We sit here for all occasions. Interviewer: I think you could almost take the visitor around the room and tell a story about literally scores of items in the room. Mrs. Kindel: There are some interesting things— �13 Interviewer: Because I’m looking behind me at the moment and here’s a case full of Chinese figures and other—here, I think your telephone is ringing. Mrs. Kindel: Well Chuck can answer it. Interviewer: Oh I see. Anyway, you have all kinds of objets d’art and statuaries and little statuettes and teapots and— Mrs. Kindel: Copenhagen ware in there. That gentleman that’s up in the top shelf, that odd looking bit, is from the bay of the Gold Coast; Bay of Bimini is it? He’s carved of ivory. Interviewer: Oh up there, I see. Mrs. Kindel: Yes, in the center. Interviewer: What’s that, a gigantic Toby jug? Mrs. Kindel: Toby jug. No, he’s a regular size. He looks big sitting up there I guess. He’s a regular one. Some of my nice pieces in there, the piece of carved jade on the top shelf. I had a friend in school in New York whose father was a German comedian at the Metropolitan Opera House for many years, and at the end of the war they went, returned to Germany. And at the end of World War II her husband had been killed by the Russians. She’d had a child, and her father was gone and so forth, and she could reclaim her citizenship. She’d been born in this country, on one of their trips over here and if she had American money to get out of Germany she could come over here and get her citizenship back. So Chuck arranged it all and we brought her back. And that stone head is off a full-size figure, she brought me that. All her nicest things she could salvage. Her family were the Hagenbeck family, I mean she married into the Hagenbeck family in Germany, the great animal people for the zoos and the museums and the circuses and all that stuff. And they sold all these beautiful things explorers brought from all over the world. So she gave me some of my nicest pieces, they came from Hamburg. Interviewer: Let me turn the tape over a moment. We’re recording again, I hope we are. I’m pretty sure we must be. I’m not going to bother to check it again, I just…Yes, yes, we must be, because the little needle is moving up and down. So we were talking about some of the things in your room and I wanted to come back to your collection of Lincolniana. Did you ever exhibit it? Mrs. Kindel: Oh I had an awful experience. The museum, our museum downtown, wanted an exhibit one time. So they sent somebody out to go through my material and see what they would like and so forth. My letters are of a material, I forget the name of it, it protects them, you can read them and handle them without touching the letter, you know what I mean? They’re all protected like that. So I loaned her these. My dear, they took them all out of those protecting envelopes they were in and put a thumbtack through that handbill, that’s an original old handbill. They had thumbtacks up in the top of that one, and they had these letters just lying in the window with nothing. I’d never loan again. Interviewer: I don’t blame you. Mrs. Kindel: After that, I thought—you’d think that museum would know better, wouldn’t you? �14 Interviewer: Maybe they do now. Let’s hope. Mrs. Kindel: Let us hope. Interviewer: I’m interested in that handbill; it says Uncle Tom’s Cabin. Is that the first night, or just one of the earliest? Mrs. Kindel: Eighteen sixty-four. Interviewer: Eighteen sixty-four. Mrs. Kindel: March tenth. Interviewer: I think it was made into a play before that probably, I think. Mrs. Kindel: I have a first edition of Uncle Tom’s Cabin. Interviewer: Of course, that came out long before the Civil War, or several years before the Civil War didn’t it? Mrs. Kindel: Yeah. Do you know about books, you know they ruined, well not the value completely, but they detracted from the value by binding these. Interviewer: Was it originally a two volume set? Mrs. Kindel: Yeah. Here’s what the cover was. Interviewer: The original cover, yeah. Mrs. Kindel: There’s the end piece. And there’s the other. Interviewer: They preserve it, but they do, it does lessen the value. Mrs. Kindel: That took just half the value away. Interviewer: Let’s see what year. What year do you—? Mrs. Kindel: Eighteen fifty-two. Interviewer: Alright, I thought it was about that period. Mrs. Kindel: It’s a lovely binding. Interviewer: Yes it is. See, it was bound in Boston, well it says Boston eighteen fifty-two, but that’s the year of the publication not the binding. Very handsome indeed. Well, there must be some other— We talked a little about Oriental art, and things you’d like to, if you were to start all over again collecting. �15 Mrs. Kindel: Well that’s a George Inness painting over the mantel, which is one of our treasures. Father Kindel gave it to me. When I came into the family I kept raving about it so, he said, “When I go, you have that.” Interviewer: That was Mr. Kindel Senior? It’s a lovely painting. Mrs. Kindel: Yes, it is a beauty. Interviewer: Would you say that much of the furniture in this room is original antique or some of it reproduction? Mrs. Kindel: No, it’s all reproduction. Interviewer: Is it mostly Grand Rapids? Mrs. Kindel: Except that wine cooler over that. Yes, it’s all Grand Rapids. Interviewer: That speaks well for our, the quality of our design in Grand Rapids. Mrs. Kindel: Oh yes; we’ve got Chinese tables over there. ---two Chinese. Interviewer: What, who did that painting of the ship? Mrs. Kindel: That’s a museum piece, that’s Clays. He’s a Belgian artist. C-L-A-Y-S. And that has an interesting story. When I was little girl it was in the apartment of friends of ours and I always loved it. I evidently did an awful lot of talking about everything, because when I got married they sent it to us for a wedding gift. And I do love it, I think it’s a real beauty. And we have down there the picture of the three Kindel men: C.M., Ted, and his little son now. Interviewer: How long has Ted been out in Vail? Mrs. Kindel: Eleven years I think it is. Yes, I’m quite sure of it, eleven or twelve. Interviewer: Wonderful place. Mrs. Kindel: He’s quite the pillar of the post out there. He’s so busy, my gracious, he’s on the Board of Education and he’s an Associate, [the] Board of Associates control Vail, they’re the governing body, and he’s on that. When the president was out here this winter, Christmastime you know, he was so busy, he said, “I’m ready to fall on my face,” he said, “I don’t know how the president takes it.” They had a party every night and skied every day. And then the Cabinet came out at some point to see Jerry. And Ted said, “Gee, I got so I knew some by first name.” It was so interesting you hear little tidbits of conversation about things that you read about. It was, they’d had Jerry and the family for several Christmases now. They started it back when Jerry rented Ted’s house one Christmas holiday and ever since then they have them for Christmas Eve dinner. They had thirty this Christmas; they had to have six Secret Servicemen with them. And before the president and his party came in, a group of eight men came to the door, Teddy didn’t know who they were, unannounced, they’re called a Bomb Squad. And they came in the house, they went through every bureau drawer, every clothes closet, every cupboard, everything before the president was allowed to enter. And I said, “Was that �16 just your house that they did that too?” “No,” he said. All week, or two weeks, every place he went into, that Bomb Squad went ahead of him. Interviewer: That’s interesting, I never heard of that. Mrs. Kindel: I’d never heard of that. Interviewer: I knew that the Secret Service was very much in evidence whenever he appears in Grand Rapids or wherever it is, but I never knew about the Bomb Squad. Mrs. Kindel: I never did either. That amazed me. Well they had the Secret Service for dinner too, and they had friends of the Fords from Utah with five children, and of course Nancy and Ted have five children, so that was ten children at the dinner party. But they had a good time anyway. We called out there and talked to Jerry. And I said, “Good evening, Mr. President” and then I laughed and I said, “Jerry, I can’t call you Mr. President.” And he said, “Well Katrina, you don’t need to. You call me Jerry.” But he is a nice person, I mean regardless of how you think of him as a president, and I have some reservations, he’s a very fine man, he’s a nice, good man. Thank God after what we had. Interviewer: We went through quite a lot. Mrs. Kindel: So they had real fun. Nancy got herself on the Today program. I was watching it kind of idly one morning and I thought, that voice sounds so familiar, and I looked and here was Nancy with Jerry Ford in the main street at Vail, well she was throwing her arms up around his neck because he’s so tall and big, she was hugging and kissing him, and she says, “Welcome Mr. President!” Interviewer: We should explain that Nancy is your daughter-in-law. Mrs. Kindel: Oh yes, Nancy my daughter-in-law. Interviewer: It’s interesting; many of us, many, many people of course in Grand Rapids have known Jerry, rather informally, for a good many years and now it’s quite different. Mrs. Kindel: I know, now we feel like we have a personal share of him. Interviewer: Yes, of course. Mrs. Kindel: Well he is a nice, good guy. And Betty is. Betty and Nancy have become good friends. Interviewer: I want to just shut it off for a second; I want to take another look at your book here. We’ve just been talking about President Ford and of course this is a very highly Republican area, at least we have always thought that it is. And in looking through this book, this book of biographies in which you appear, I notice that you apparently are identified as a Democrat. And I’m curious to know how you, was your family a Democratic family or were you? Mrs. Kindel: Yes, my father was always a Democrat, however I worked for Jerry Ford Senior one year. He put me in charge of the three wards out here in East Grand Rapids, told me get the vote out. And I did it for the Republicans and also served as a toast mistress for their dinner and if he didn’t have the nerve at the dinner to tell this story about me. When I was getting the poll list copied, I had �17 volunteers of course go out to East Grand Rapids, and I said now, the names that have R after them, those are the ones we want you to copy. So we come to find out that R meant Removed and D meant deceased. And Jerry Ford Senior told this before this big dinner about me, I was so embarrassed I almost died. My Republican, I worked hard, I did a good job for them, but I am a Democrat. Interviewer: Well of course we have a Democrat as a congressman now which is a new twist after so many years of a Republican. Mrs. Kindel: Well I tell you, Dorothy MacAllister got me terribly interested in going in the Democratic fold. I admire her so tremendously and enjoyed being with her, oh what a brilliant woman she is. And that’s how I got going at it actively. I was chairman of the Radio, Radio State Chairman for Radio. That Democratic party was organized like nobody’s business. And the women had all these different…Piggy Bank, and the Radio, and different things and they had State Chairman and then they had County Chairman. And you were give money from the central treasury to carry on your work with and everything, it was just fabulous the way they operated. So I was part of that. Interviewer: Well, what do you think about our city? Mrs. Kindel: I love Grand Rapids. Interviewer: You like Grand Rapids. Mrs. Kindel: I’ve always loved it. Interviewer: I wasn’t trying to get that kind of a response necessarily. Mrs. Kindel: Well I do. I think it’s a nice place to live, I always have. I think the climate’s miserable, but— Interviewer: Especially today. Mrs. Kindel: Yeah well, the summer’s are hot and humid and all that, but no, I think it’s…I lived in so much bigger cities as a girl and all, and I envied people who lived here. I was glad to come here to live. I think it’s a great place to live for families. Still, when they grow older they’re kind of bored, it isn’t a very stimulating town is it? Interviewer: Well I think it’s more stimulating now than it was ten years ago, with the development of the new colleges, especially Grand Valley— Mrs. Kindel: I guess so. Interviewer: and I think there are more things going on. I had it—oh, one thing I wanted to bring out, I noticed in this book again that you are a member of the Marble Collegiate Church in New York City, of which Dr. Norman Vincent Peale is the minister. How did you happen to join that church? And when did you happen to join it? My two questions. Mrs. Kindel: I don’t really know. Mr. Kindel and I were both raised in the Christian Science Sunday School and Church, and we got pretty far away from it, practicing it, although it’s a philosophy that I �18 think stays with us pretty much, and we’re happy to have it, but I wanted to belong to a church, and I didn’t want to belong to the Christian Science church. Norman Peale had become a friend, we’ve had him here as a houseguest, he’s been in this house several times and Ruth, his wife, too. And I like his philosophy and his positive thinking, and so I joined it. And I’ve never been sorry. And he’s so painstaking; when I was ill this fall I had such a beautiful letter from him that he and Ruth were praying daily for my complete recovery. This isn’t just perfunctory with him, he’s, he really… Interviewer: He’s a real genuine person. Mrs. Kindel: Yes, he knows what he’s saying and why. He’s a remarkable person. My, what he, what good he does, those sermons broadcast and that beautiful church it’s so mellow with age you know, it’s over a hundred years old. Have you been in it? Interviewer: It’s way down on Fifth Avenue. I know where it is, I’ve never been inside it. Mrs. Kindel: You should, it’s an experience. Twenty-ninth street and Fifth. It’s a beautiful old church. Interviewer: It’s a lovely church. Mrs. Kindel: It’s the oldest Protestant church in this country. It’s quite a record. Interviewer: I didn’t realize that. You mean the parish goes back farther than any other. Dutch church, I presume, originally. Mrs. Kindel: Oldest Protestant church in the country. Interviewer: Well unless there is some other topic you think we— Mrs. Kindel: Well my grandparents, my Dutch grandparents, were the second couple, the first couple, married in the Dutch Reformed Church in Grand Rapids. In eighteen sixty-seven. Interviewer: Where was the church located? Mrs. Kindel: I don’t know. It’s the, well the big church up on College, that’s the outgrowth. Interviewer: Of course, it was down originally; when I was much younger it was on the corner of Fountain and Barclay. And that church burned. And then they moved to the corner of College and Fulton Streets. So I remembered that church, but whether, I’m sure it wasn’t originally there. I think it came, it was in some other location. Mrs. Kindel: Of course you know the Marble Collegiate is Dutch Reformed? Interviewer: Yes, I know that. Well, you’ve stuck with your Dutch ancestry you see. Mrs. Kindel: Yeah. The Dutch will show up. �19 Interviewer: Well, this has been very pleasant. And I think, as I say, unless you have something else to add? Mrs. Kindel: No dearie. Heavens, you’ve got me talking a blue streak. Interviewer: Well that’s pretty good. That’s fine. Thank you very, very much, and I’m sure that a hundred years from now, somebody will be interested to hear this, I hope. Mrs. Kindel: Why yes, maybe they will. They’ll say, humane society? Well now what was that? Interviewer: They may still use that word, let’s hope. Mrs. Kindel: The millennium will not come too soon. Interviewer: No, I can agree with you there. Mrs. Kindel: No. A H Avery, Evelyn · 11 B Hagenbeck Family · 14 Hendricks, Mrs. G.A. · 5 Homiller, Mrs. (Aunt) · 2 Berkey and Gay · 4 Burns Family · 2 I C Carroll, Ad · 6 Caulfield Family · 2 Clark, Emily Jewell · 9, 10 D Dana Hall (school) · 3 Dean, Frank · 11 Duffy Family · 2 F Foote, F. Stuart · 4 Ford, Betty · 17 Ford, President Gerald R. (Jerry) · 16, 17 Illinois Lives · 1 K Kammeraad, Peter · 6 Kent County Humane Society · 5, 7 Kindel, Charles MacLear (Husband) · 1, 4, 11, 19 Kindel, Nancy (Daughter-in-law) · 17 Kindel, Ted (Son) · 12, 13, 16, 17 L Lincoln, Abraham · 12, 13 M MacAllister, Dorothy · 18 McPherson, Mrs. (Aunt) · 2 �20 Michigan Federation of Humane Societies · 8 Midwest Humane Conference · 8 T Talmadge, Bill · 5 N Newman, Ralph · 12, 13 U Uncle Tom’s Cabin · 14, 15 P Peale, Dr. Norman Vincent · 10, 18, 19 Pullen, Mrs. · 7 R Rhoda, Ruth Bryan · 10 Roosevelt, Eleanor · 8 S Starr Commonwealth · 9, 11 Starr, Floyd · 9, 10, 11, 12 Stuart, Jesse · 4, 10 V van Asmus, Edward Cup (Father) · 3, 17 van Asmus, Helen Hurlbut Long (Mother) · 2, 3, 5 van Asmus, Henry David Cup (Grandfather) · 1 W Welsh, George · 6 Wilcox, Mrs. · 10 Wilcox, Raymond · 10 Women of the Civil War collection · 13 Woodcock Family · 2 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7debdc962f2b5a9a9ea486d6aa6c2dcd.mp3 62a2338b9d2568fbdb0413c8bf12a3ed Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_48Kindel Title A name given to the resource Kindel, Katrina Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kindel, Katrina Description An account of the resource Katrina Cup van Asmus was born in 1904. She married Charles Kindel in 1924. She was heavily involved with the local and national Humane Society and was instrumental in forming the Michigan Federation of Humane Societies. Mrs. Kindel managed construction of the WPA project to build an animal pound on Grandville Avenue in the early 1930s. She served as a trustee and vice president of the Starr Commonwealth, a nationally-known training school and home for disadvantaged boys near Albion, MI. Mrs. Kindel collected rare books and had a large collection of Lincolnia. She died in 1987. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1975 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b971084849adb5742dcf53da72f90baf.pdf a0e30cddef0ad61227a2aebea666ee66 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mrs. Lemuel Serrell Hillman (Dorothy Woodruff) Interviewed on January 29, 1975 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #47 (1:06:24) Biographical Information Mrs. Hillman was born Dorothy Woodruff in Auburn, N.Y., 13 January 1887, the daughter of Caroline Porter Beardsley and John Herman Woodruff. She married Lemuel Serrell Hillman on 3 July 1917 in Auburn. She died 13 May 1979 at Porter Hills Presbyterian Village in Grand Rapids. Lemuel Serrell Hillman was born 28 August 1886 at Mt. Vernon, Oneida County, New York. He was the son of William Hillman and Emma Louise Bill. Lemuel was killed 21 February 1930 when an automobile struck him and Mrs. Hillman while they were walking along East Fulton Street in Grand Rapids. The Hillmans had two daughters, Caroline and Hermione, and two sons, Serrell and Douglas. The Hillman‟s home was 330 East Fulton Street from 1919 to 1943. ___________ Interviewer: This is the afternoon of January 29, 1975 I am at Porter Hills Presbyterian Village. I am calling on Mrs. Lemuel Serrell Hillman, who although not a native of Grand Rapids has spent much of her life here, and reared her children here. Mrs. Hillman has recently returned to live in Grand Rapids, and her memory goes back a good many years. Mrs. Hillman, I believe you were born in and brought up near Auburn (New York). Dorothy: Auburn New York, which is a small city, of about thirty-six thousand people. It was a very highly sophisticated and rather wealthy community of old families who really, many of them lived in the grand manner. We always sort of thought of Auburn as sort of, not unlike Long Island, social life. I belong to a very large family, and after I graduated from college and had lived abroad for a year, came home and one of my dearest friends had married Monroe Hubbard, who had been in the high school with us and was a very brilliant young man. And he had gone to Colgate College where he had a very distinguished career, very extremely popular, attractive young man, too. And through him, I met my future husband. I came out to Grand Rapids to visit Betty Gates Hubbard, who had married Monroe Hubbard by this time, and with my dear friend Rosamond Underwood, we were going to (going to) take a great adventure and come west to Grand Rapids to visit Betty, and see what life was like in a place, which we could hardly imagine. Interviewer: Was that before the First World War? �2 Dorothy: Oh no, this was in, yes, of course, it was before the First World War. That must have been in nineteen sixteen, no, January nineteen seventeen that we came out here. Interviewer: Your class was oh-eight at Smith, was it not? Dorothy: No, it was nineteen nine. Interviewer: I‟m sorry, I‟m off a year. Dorothy: Anyway, we came out here to visit and they were very attractive, and they had made great many friends here. Well, we were absolutely stunned by Grand Rapids, we‟d thought, you know, I don‟t know it was my family thought there‟d be an Indian behind every tree. And that it was a very primitive kind of place, and I‟d had a cousin who‟d been out here once and she said, “You know they have wooden sidewalks”. We were prepared for almost anything except what we found. Well, we fell in love with Grand Rapids. These young friends of ours had an apartment upstairs in a house on Paris Avenue. And they‟d made a great many friends, and so they, everybody was what I considered at that time true Western hospitality, entertained us royally all the time. We met a great many people, went to a lot of parties, and had a wonderful time. Now, two rather elderly people, at least I thought they were elderly at that time I‟m sure they weren‟t, Mr. and Mrs. [Frederick] Tinkham, lived across the street [315 Paris] from Betty and Monroe on Paris Avenue, and they‟d become very much interested in them. So they gave a party for us. And we went there, we went Sunday night for supper, and Monroe of course, Monroe was very anxious to have us meet his college roommate whom he had induced to come out to Grand Rapids. And Lem was in a brokerage house working at that time. Oh, what is the name of it? It was in the Old Trust Company. Do you remember what it was? Interviewer: Not offhand. Dorothy: Well, the Grand Rapids, well, I guess it was the Grand Rapids Trust Company or something. Interviewer: Was it in the old Grand Rapids Trust Company? Dorothy: No, it was the regular Grand Rapids Trust Company, now is that what it is, oh no it just blew up. Interviewer: That was the Michigan National Bank. Dorothy: No, well I forget what the name of it was, anyway. Interviewer: You don‟t know which building? Dorothy: Well, it was on Ottawa, and it was in one of the big buildings there. Interviewer: Was it in the Michigan Trust Building? �3 Dorothy: Yes, I guess so, but it probably wasn‟t the Michigan Trust. I think it was the Grand Rapids Trust. Who was the man who owned the Morton Hotel and all that? Interviewer: Mr. Brewer, I think. Dorothy: Yes, well it wasn‟t Mr. Brewer, maybe Mr. Brewer was the president, he might have been, well anyway, so that night, that was when I met Lem Hillman, and we had a delightful evening and I saw a good deal of him, while we were there. Interviewer: Where did Mr. Hillman come from? Dorothy: Well, he came from New York, from outside New York, and he had gone to Prep School in Hamilton, New York, where Colgate University is. Went there for two years, and then he went four years to college, and he really has a spectacular career. He was not very tall and somewhat slight, but extremely muscular, and beautifully coordinated, he was a natural athletic, he did everything well. And he was a superb tennis player, and he was manager of the baseball team, and so on, and also he was captain of the basketball team, although now we think of basketball players as being over six feet, he was so fast on his feet and such a sure shot that he was really a spectacular player. Well, anyway, aside from all that, he was a very, fine student, and graduated Phi Beta Kappa from college. And he‟d gone into the insurance business, [correction] rubber business with his father and in Philadelphia, but his mother died very suddenly and he was so unhappy. He needed a complete change so he, that‟s why he came out and joined Monroe. Well, he didn‟t stay in that brokerage firm very long, and he didn‟t like it. And he went to work with Howe, Snow, Corrigan and Bertles where Monroe was and became a partner in the brokerage house. Well, anyway we were not married until, let me see, June, nineteen seventeen, because I went out to Colorado, the wilds of Colorado to teach school with Rosamond, and we stayed there nearly a year. So then when we came, the war had started, the First World War, when we came home and so Lem enlisted and we were married that June. And Rosamond had become engaged to a young man she met out in Colorado and he, they wouldn‟t enlist him because he was a head of a coalmine out there and they thought he was needed there. But anyway, she was married on the thirtieth of June and I was married on the third of July, and we were in each other‟s wedding, I was her maid of honor and she was my matron of honor, and all our friends came from far and wide. We had a house full of all our old college friends, everybody came. Interviewer: This would be back in Auburn? Dorothy: …in Auburn, this was very gay affair, sort of a last of the old days of that sort. Well, so then we, Lem went right into service and we went, during the war, we lived around in various places. He was never given any, he joined the Navy and he was never given active service much to his disgust, but we lived in Newport, and in Woods Hole, and back to Newport, I think, then finally we came out to Grand Rapids to live in March of nineteen nineteen. And by that time my eldest child had been born, my son named for his father Lemuel Serrell Hillman Jr. And we �4 stayed with Miss Daniels for a while until we could find a place to live. Well, both of us having come from the east, and liking old houses, there was almost nothing to buy, nothing to rent. This was just after the war, there hadn‟t been any building at all; we couldn‟t find a thing. We finally bought an old tumbled down house on the corner of Prospect and Fulton. Well, we were young and not knowing much about it, we spent far too much money fixing up that house, but it really was lovely when it was done, and we lived there for a good many years. Well, by that time…. Interviewer: Let me back up for a minute? Dorothy: I was starting to tell you what I thought about Grand Rapids. Interviewer: Well, I want you to talk about a little about Miss Daniels, because…. Dorothy: Oh, I will tell you about… Interviewer: Could you work that in …. Dorothy: Well, I am going to tell you about Miss Daniels,, my knowledge of early Grand Rapids was gained from Miss Daniels, oh I wish she were here and could tell you the stories she used to tell me. She was born in about eighteen seventy eight, I think, She was a very brilliant woman who graduated from Vassar College. And her father had been superintendent of schools here for many years. Well, of course in those days school teachers were, well, I don‟t think he was paid much, I don‟t believe he earned as much as twenty-five hundred dollars a year probably not, but anyway, he had bought land on Fulton Street and I don‟t know if there was a house on that land when they bought it, probably not, but anyway he largely built that house himself. He had carpenters, whether he had a contractor I don‟t know. But he did a great deal of the building himself and it really a large and lovely house. And especially, they added to it and fixed it up through the years. Well, Miss Daniels had one brother who was older than she. And he didn‟t, when I came to Grand Rapids he had just come back to Grand Rapids to live, he was separated from his wife. And his wife and their children were living out in California, and he came to live with his sister. He was a very extremely, shy, retiring man with a magnificent brain, but it was so sad, he was so shy, he could hardly talk in public at all. And, I think very few people realized what a brilliant man he was. But she certainly was, had a marvelous brain. Well, she told that when she was born in that house that he had built, she said when she was a child one of her chief interests were standing in the front window just before noon, when the train from New York had come into Grand Rapids, and was bringing another load of Dutch immigrants. She said she was absolutely fascinated to watch them. The women went clumping up the street by the house, in their wooden sandals and their pretty white caps with the silver buttons over their ears; and then, the men with their strange looking pantaloons and odd clothes. Well, she was fascinated. Well, that evidently went on for a good many years as the furniture industry expanded in Grand Rapids and needed more and more skilled workman, they imported them from Holland. So that‟s why we became known as such a “Dutch City”, we certainly, we couldn‟t have done better, they have been marvelous citizens, I consider. Of course, the Anglo-Saxons have always had a superior �5 complex, I think, but nevertheless, we, Grand Rapids, has every reason to be proud of these Dutch people to be sure. We think, many of us that they are narrow minded in their religious ideas, but they were very devout people; and that certainly makes wonderful citizens. They owned their own houses very quickly, they kept them up beautifully; they had gardens, flowers. And although even long after I was trying to raise money for various projects, it was awfully difficult to get a nickel out of the Dutch people, because they tithed everything they had, they were very devout church people. And by giving ten percent of their income to the church, you couldn‟t unless they were very rich and many of them became very rich, you couldn‟t expect them to do very much. But I deeply resent any slurs on Grand Rapids as a Dutch community. They do have a great many Dutch people here, Dutch descent, and we‟re very proud of them and we‟re lucky to have them I think. Well, anyway I‟d like to tell you why we bought this old house on Fulton Street. I think a lot of people thought we were crazy, that we should have gone farther out in a newer residential section, but we didn‟t like any of the houses. I tell you we were very conservative, because we both come from regions of old houses, early American types of houses; and that‟s what we wanted, and what we had built as best as we could with the material we started with. But Fulton Street was a beautiful street. It was very wide, of course, much wider than it is now …. and both sides were lined with magnificent elms. Oh, they were gorgeous and they were old and you know when you walked up to Fulton Street from where we lived, from say Lafayette was a steep hill and on an icy day in the winter, and I have to tell you that more than once I had to get down and go up on my hands and knees. One reason was because the roots of these big elms went over into the sidewalks and buckled the sidewalks. Anyway it was a risk to life and limb in bad weather but, oh, it was beautiful. The houses were set back and they were well kept and they were charming. Now there were some old houses across from us, but kitty corner from us on Prospect was the so called mansion built by the founder of the Blodgett fortune here, old Mr. D.A. Blodgett, well I must say we thought it was pretty ugly. It was very Victorian of the period, large stone building, rather ornate, certainly we didn‟t think it was beautiful, but never the less, it was a very substantial and handsome house of its period. Then up next the street, was the, what was the White that built that house? Interviewer: T. Stewart White. Dorothy: Yes, T. Stewart White had built a handsome house. Now that was not of the Victorian type that was fussy, that we disliked so much, this was really a beautiful house. It was decidedly English, was a copy of, in fact, some special house, as I understand, in England that they had seen. Very handsome house, and then on beyond set way back with long wide lawns down to the sidewalks in front was a house that… oh, dear what was Edith Hall‟s mother‟s name? Do you remember? �6 Interviewer: Chase. Dorothy: What? Interviewer: Mrs. Chase. Dorothy: Mr. and Mrs. Chase lived there and next to them, Mr. and Mrs. Shanahan lived. So we knew all these people and they were all proud of their houses and they looked very well., But up the, down below us toward the business section, then next door to us was Mr. Hughart‟s house which was a lovely old house, one of the oldest houses in Grand Rapids, and very handsome and then on beyond that was the large stone house which is now the Women‟s City Club. And next to that, of course, was the present Art Gallery which was a handsome colonial house with columns in that period. So you can see it was a very, substantial, handsome neighborhood and really lovely too with those beautiful trees. Well, the amazing thing to me when I came here to live. I had already seen Grand Rapids and I knew what a lovely city it was, but what I did not know was that it was such a highly cultivated city. It offered such a rich intellectual fare. And I just hope that some of these modern critics about Jerry Ford‟s Grand Rapids could really know what I am talking about. For instance, I lived in France for a year and was very much interested of course, in French, well there was a very active Alliance Françoise here at that period and Mrs. Hughes who had lived in France a large part of her life, taught French and was very active in that. She lived with a cousin Mrs…. Who was that that lived with Mrs. Hughes? Well, I have forgotten her name, but, they had a perfectly beautiful house on up Fulton Street, on beyond where I left off describing the houses, what? Interviewer: Was it Mrs. Swift? Dorothy: Yes, Mrs. Swift, why Lee, you are wonderful. Mrs. Swift and Mrs. Hughes and they lived in a very grand and formal way, I want to tell you. They had a butler and several maids, to be entertained there was really a very sophisticated, elegant experience. Then next to them were Mr. and Mrs. Hollister. Mr. Hollister was president of the Old Kent Bank, a very charming attractive man. Mrs. Hollister I can only describe as a dynamo. I was devoted to her, and she was a remarkable woman with great intelligence, but she was also very determined, very sure she was right and a good many people were not wildly enthusiastic about her, to put it mildly, although they felt indebted to her. We were all indebted to her, she was, had quite a little money, she came from an old family in Massachusetts, let me see, just below Northampton. What is the name of that town? Well, her father was the original maker of thread in this country. She really must have inherited a fortune and also, she was a very accomplished musician. Well, she was very generous and she often subsidized speakers to come here for various things. There was also an extremely active Woman‟s University Club, and they had a large membership. They had plays and lectures and oh, it was a very active club which gave great stimulus to Grand Rapids entertainment and interest. Mr. and Mrs. Hollister had lost a son in the [First] World War in France, so their devotion to France was very great. And Mrs. Hollister was much interested in �7 providing speakers for the Alliance and boosting it and always entertaining them whenever they needed a house, at her house. She always was very generous with her house about everything, very hospitable….remarkable woman. And we had another remarkable woman in Grand Rapids at that period, and that was Mrs. John W. Blodgett. She was a fellow member of the same class as Mrs. Hollister at Vassar. Mrs. Blodgett came before she was married to visit Mrs. Hollister, who was a bride at that time, and that is where she met Mr. Blodgett, so then she came to Grand Rapids to live. She too, was an intellectual. And very much was interested in doing everything she could to foster not only, the intellectual life of Grand Rapids, but the social work life. The family had founded a children‟s home here, the D.A. Blodgett Home for Children. They were very much interested in that and my husband had been treasurer of that home for years and I was put right on the board as members too. We were very much interested in that. Well, Mrs. Blodgett was interested in all worthwhile things. And of course, they had also given Blodgett Hospital in memory of Mr. D.A. Blodgett. So there was a great deal of interest here, by prominent people in elevating the intellectual and cultural life of Grand Rapids. You know, it was jokingly often called the Boston of the Midwest. I hated it that Grand Rapids was called the middle west, the middle west was such a dreadful term in Auburn where I came from, it was sort of the embodiment of hayseed, and Grand Rapids was such a contrast to that, I just had a fit if anybody called it the middle west, of course, it really isn‟t. We definitely aren‟t eastern either even if we are on Eastern Time. Well, anyway that was the Grand Rapids that I knew. And my husband was very active in everything worthwhile in Grand Rapids. And a great leader in every kind of endeavor, social work, church work, intellectual, everything that was going on to better the town and you know it was expected. In a way, it was everybody at that period who had had a good education who had the advantage of going to college was expected to offer a tribute to that education by giving back in service. And they certainly did in those days, and they made Grand Rapids the city that it became. Of course the furniture industry grew like mad and prospered, Grand Rapids became a very rich city and during this period my husband left Howe, Snow, Corrigan and Bertles and went to the Old Kent Bank where he headed their bond department and later became the vice president and their head of investment department. Well, I guess that‟s about enough, Lee? Interviewer: I would like to talk a little more going into the depression perhaps a little bit and talk about your children. Dorothy: About what? Interviewer: Your children, that would be quite interesting, and what happened to you after your husband‟s death; and the Depression and your work with the Red Cross. I think that would be of interest. Dorothy: Of course, this is personal history. We had four children, two sons and two daughters and my husband was killed in an accident, he was run over by an automobile. One night we were, we had had a perfectly terrible winter with very, very deep snow almost impossible to get �8 through the streets in a car and we had a terrible winter very cold. This was late in February, we‟d suddenly had the first sun bright sunny and the snow was thawing. We were going out way Fulton Street as it was then for dinner with Dr. and Mrs. Hodgen. And I said let‟s walk. So we did walk, and that of course was a tragic mistake because we were walking on a country road and on the right side of the road and everything, and we were run into and run down by a drunken man driving, recklessly. My husband pushed me and I landed out in the field. I jumped up unhurt, but he was killed. It was a most awful terrible thing and I, really Grand Rapids as a city was really broken hearted at his loss, because he had the kind of personality that everybody loved. Well, it was necessary in order to save my reason and try to earn a little money to do a little something. Well, I went into the Red Cross, which I must say I didn‟t know anything about either at that time but I was the Executive Director of the Red Cross. Interviewer: About what year would that have been, Mrs. Hillman? Dorothy: That was, well let‟s see Lem died in nineteen thirty, and oh about nineteen thirty-four I guess. My youngest child, my daughter was only three years old, at the time of my husband‟s death; it‟s always been grief to me that she couldn‟t remember him. But the children went to the Fountain Street School, which is an excellent school, such good teachers. And then on to Central High School which certainly there were any number of very remarkable fine teachers. Miss Daniels was the assistant principal, all through these years. Just think how able she was but being a woman she could never be principal. Well, that was one of the sad things of that period. But anyway Serrell went to Deerfield Academy after two years in the high school. I felt that he needed to be under the influence and teaching of men; they would give him something that we could not give him here or at home. I think we probably made a mistake. He was the only person I ever heard of that wasn‟t happy at Deerfield. He didn‟t like it; he didn‟t like anything about it. He was supposed to stay for two years. Well, I went to see him in the middle of the winter, talked to Mr. Boyden who was such a distinguished educator. I said Mr. Boyden, Serrell isn‟t happy here and he wants to finish in one year. Mr. Boyden said we have never had anybody do that, and I said will you let him try it and see if he can do it? And then I said I don‟t know where he should go to college? Of course he is living in the memory of his father whom he adored and he feels he ought to go to Colgate. But I cannot believe that the Colgate is the place for him, at that period the Colgate was dedicated to sports and if there was anyone that was not a sport, it was Serrell. He was the exact opposite of his father in that way. Well, it was a disaster because anyway. So I said to Mr. Boyden what shall I do, where should I send Serrell? Oh, he said, “I think you should send him to Colgate.”Well, that was very poor advice; I never really forgave him for that. Then Serrell only stayed six months at Colgate, he simply hated it. And I went to see him there and he said, “I am coming home.” And I said “You‟re coming home? What are you going to do?” No this was at Deerfield, no that was right. No, he got into Colgate from Deerfield and he said he was coming home. I said, “You wanted to go to Harvard how are you going to get into Harvard? You‟ll lose all your credits.” “No,” he said, “I am going to tutor, I am going back to the high school.” Well, I said, “If you know what you are doing and that‟s what you want.” �9 Well he did finish the two years in one, much to Mr. Boyden‟s astonishment, he got into Colgate and that was another disaster, so then he went to Harvard. He was accepted at Harvard, oh, I will never forget that suspense. He use to run down to the corner, usually in his bathrobe and slippers and couldn‟t wait for the postman. And the postman was so excited waiting for that letter from Cambridge. It was very funny, he would see Serrell running down the street, he would call out to him, no, it hasn‟t come, so he would have to come back and wait for another day. Well, it finally did come. And Caroline and Hermione, my daughter usually called Hermi both graduated from the high school. They were both very good students and they both went on to Smith, much to my delight. Douglas was very blithe about his studies and wasn‟t very interested. And I must say, I didn‟t think he was doing well at all. And I thought he needed to get away from home. He needed discipline I thought, so I sent him to Exeter. Well, he liked it well enough but he didn‟t do well, particularly and I decided that was not a success. I didn‟t know what to do about that so when I went up in June to bring him home, I said, “Now Douglas what are you going to do next year?” He said, “Well I am not going back to Exeter.” I knew very well they probably wouldn‟t take him. “Well, what are you going to do?” And he said, “Oh, I am going back to the high school.” “How, why you have lost a whole year, how are you going to do that? I don‟t know how many credits you will get.” “Oh, I‟m going to tutor.” I said, “Will you be able to catch up to your class?” He said, “Why certainly.” To my amazement he did. He tutored, he caught up with his class, and his class graduated well. His class got high honors at the University of Michigan where they all went, „because they were so well prepared. So then, he went on, went on to university and graduated from there in about a year and a half. The second war came, the Second World War. So he enlisted right away in the Air Corps and he was a pilot, he was just under twenty-one in the period, I guess he wasn‟t twenty-one yet. Well later on he became a pilot of a big B-24 and saw a lot of action. His plane was even shot down in Bulgaria. They were bombing Went(?)Polesti where they had the oil fields to bomb and they were hit and so his plane was quite badly damaged. So Douglas gave the order if anybody wanted to get out, they better do it right away quickly. Well, they all jumped but Douglas and they all got out there and in the meantime the Air Corps had sent a couple of planes to his aid. And they boxed around this injured plane and he was able to get it back to Bari on the Mediterranean coast still going. And so when he got over the airfield there, and when he looked down the whole place was alive with people and ambulances and all kinds of things, so he turned the plane out to sea and jumped. And we he got out he was very, very light and when he got out he didn‟t go down the way he should have. He went to the right and to the left and he thought he was never going to go down. And to his perfect horror he saw his plane had turned around and was coming right at him, he thought he was going to be cut right in two by the plane. Well he couldn‟t steer this chute he was on, but it missed him fortunately, and eventually he got down completely unharmed. And you know, I would like to tell you kind of an interesting story in connection with that. At the last year of the war I left the Red Cross here because I thought I had nothing new to offer. I was very tired I suppose. We were an enormous organization by that time and I felt they needed new ideas and literally I didn‟t have any, so I decided to go down to Washington and work there for awhile with �10 the national organization. The national organization gave me a job and I had a little apartment in Alexandria. And one Sunday morning a knock came to my apartment door and here were two strange young men. They said are you Mrs. Hillman? And I said, yes. Are you Doug Hillman‟s mother? Yes, I am, they said we were members of his crew and we were shot down over Romania and we heard you were here and we thought we would like to come and see you. Well, you can imagine how delighted I was and we became great friends and I saw a great deal of them after that, but they told me this story. They parachuted down and landed in a wheat field and that looked just dandy to them and everything was just fine and they rose up and they found themselves surrounded by a group of soldiers all pointing their guns right at them. They were about to be shot but they finally were able to talk them out of it. I don‟t know how they did it or what language they spoke but they were taken prisoners instead and they had to stay there for the duration of the war. And they said they would have literally starved to death if it hadn‟t been for the Red Cross boxes. You can imagine how thankful I was about that. Well, anyway that‟s the end of that story. Interviewer: Now we are recording… Dorothy: Now ask me what else… Interviewer: Oh, I was going to ask you a question because…About once a year or so and it happened just a week or two again, I am asked to research old houses for the Annual Heritage House Tour and about two years ago your house which is now Van Clair‟s was put on the tour. And they asked me to find out all I could about it. I had a very difficult time, I was able to trace it back to a very early era, at least around the turn of the century, but I wasn‟t able to go much further than that. It is very hard sometimes for people to get everything out of the safety deposit box; you know the original abstract and so forth. And I hate to bother people, so I went as far as I could. I sort of came up to a blank wall and just had to fill in. I did know certain people that lived in your house, for instance Mrs. Curtis, I know lived there. Dorothy: You know, I never knew any farther back then she could tell me. I don‟t think we ever had any abstract, I don‟t remember seeing one. Interviewer: I‟m convinced the house is quite old. Dorothy: Oh, it was a very old house, there isn‟t any doubt about that and one very well built, and we certainly got into a lot of trouble, terrible expense remaking it. We would have spent far less money if we had started from scratch, but we didn‟t know enough to know that. I don‟t know anything more about it. Interviewer: Well, someday we will have to find somebody to, someday we will find someone who knows; we always do. Dorothy: I don‟t know how you think you will? �11 Interviewer: It is funny how things turn up all the time. Dorothy: Well, I hope you can, that‟ll be very nice. Interviewer: I wanted to ask you about your friends, the friends you had with Mr. Hillman, and friends you knew after he died because I think I know who some of them were and I would like you to comment on some of the people that you saw. I am talking not talking about the old people but, about the younger people of your generation. Dorothy: I can‟t do that, I couldn‟t possibly do that, I‟m sorry but you will have to ask other people what they thought about Lem, he was so unusual. Interviewer: I meant for you to talk about yourself. Dorothy: No, I can‟t do it. I couldn‟t possibly do that. Interviewer: We‟re flexible... Would you like to carry on about your children after the war? Dorothy: I don‟t know why you would be particularly interested in that but I would be glad to do that. Caroline graduated from Smith College and she went out to work on a ranch in New Mexico, and was a tutor to a boy and girl twins, the children of a very rich rancher out not far from Santa Fe. He had a perfectly tremendous ranch, one of the biggest in the country. That was a very interesting experience. She did that for one year, and then she went and taught in a girl‟s boarding school, which was outside of Santa Fe. Then when the war came, why she wanted to go, too. So she went abroad with the Red Cross, she went to Washington and went through the induction period there and stayed overseas for about three years and had a very interesting experience. Then she came home, and of course there wasn‟t any opportunity for her in Grand Rapids at that period. There wasn‟t any opening for a girl really unless perhaps she wanted to teach, but she didn‟t. So she…let‟s see at that period…I guess she was thinking about what she could do. At that time, Serrell was in the Life and Time bureau in Chicago and she went over to Chicago to see him and met George Eccle, whom she later married. He was a very brilliant young man who was the New York Times representative in Chicago and he worked in a little office in the Tribune building with another man, and you know that at the end of three years he died of lung cancer. It was a very sad, tragic thing; I thought it was because they both smoked in this tiny little office. Both those men smoked those cigarettes all day long. Anyway he died of lung cancer and it was a terrible thing. And so then Caroline went to New York. She had been living in Chicago but there was nothing for her there and she went to New York, and there eventually went to work for Time magazine. She was there awhile; then she went to a new magazine which had been recently started and which was American Heritage. She became, I don‟t know, I always thought she was general cook and bottle washer there, she did everything, every kind of editorial work, all kinds of things for them. And eventually some years later, oh four or five years later, she married her present husband Ralph Backlund, who was one of the editors of Horizon. After they were married awhile, he was offered a position in the State �12 Department and they moved to Washington. And he was the assistant in the Cultural Affairs Department of the State Department. Well then anyway, when the new President came in, the head of the department didn‟t like what was going on, didn‟t like what was expected of them and the department and he retired. And the President appointed an Italian as head of the bureau, who had no experience whatsoever, then Ralph left too. And then he went to the Smithsonian, where he is now one of the editors of the Smithsonian Magazine. Caroline in the meantime had taken a librarian‟s degree. One of the things she had done for Horizon was to set up a picture library, which made quite a reputation and she realized she had to know more. So she went at night and took a night course up at Columbia and got her degree in Library Science. So when they moved to Washington she got a job with the National Gallery of Art, where she is the Assistant Director. Hermi, in the meantime graduated from Smith, came home to be with me. She lived with me for about a year and she worked down at the art gallery. I must see that she didn‟t stay there looking after me. I persuaded her to go to New York and see if she could find anything interesting, stimulating, really get a job worthy of her abilities. Well, she got a job on the Gallery of Modern Art, but in the meantime she had seen Dan Wickenden, one of Serrell‟s friends that had come to Grand Rapids during the war. I forgot to tell you, that Serrell was not accepted by the draft because he had asthma and this friend of his, Dan Wickenden who had a pen friendship all through Serrell‟s Harvard career. Dan had written a novel, he was older than Serrell. He graduated from Amherst, and had written a successful novel which Serrell had admired very much, so he wrote to Dan and they became great friends through their correspondence. Dan was turned down by the draft too, because of I forgot, some minor reason. He was very unhappy about that. In the meantime Serrell had been married to DuBarry Campau; she was a reporter on the Press as Serrell was at that period. So they were married and they had been married only a few weeks and the Press told DuBarry they had to have her resignation because they had a regulation not to hire married women. Doesn‟t that sound archaic? Interviewer: Yes Dorothy: Anyway she was one of the stars of that paper, she started a wonderful “Judy Jots it Down” column, which was a very witty columnist and reporter. And so they had to do something about that because this was all they had, they had no money whatsoever. So Serrell wrote around and got a job with the Louisville Courier. And so they left and went down to Louisville. After a few weeks I heard from them from New York. I said, “Well what are you doing in New York?” He said, “We couldn‟t stand it down there, we didn‟t like the south, we just hated it. So we came to New York to look for a job.” I said, “How did you get there?” I knew they really had no money. “Oh,” Serrell said, “we sold our bicycles.” They got themselves to New York, and picked up whatever jobs they could do until they finally both landed newspaper jobs and have been in that position ever since. Interviewer: But Hermi and Dan? �13 Dorothy: Well, anyway Dan came and Serrell said we have to leave Grand Rapids so why don‟t you come and I suppose the press will give you our composite jobs. So he came and sure enough, the Press was glad to have him. So he found a room in the old, what was that old, it‟s torn down lately, the old columned house on Washington Street. Next to where Kate Sears used to live. Interviewer: Oh, the Wanty house. Dorothy: No, no. Interviewer: They put columns on it later, that‟s why I say…. Dorothy: Well, anyway in the old house with columns. He had most of his meals at our house. Hermi was only fifteen at that stage and she surely lost her heart to Dan and never looked at another soul. So finally, suddenly he realized she was his sun, moon and stars, they were married very quickly because I wanted them to be married, while George was very ill at that time, Caroline‟s husband. And I wanted them to be married, while it was possible. So they had a very quiet little wedding and were married. And Dan was writing novels at that period and they went to Westport, Connecticut to live. After they had three children, Dan decided he needed a regulation job to keep a family going. So he has been an editor in New York ever since. He is with Harcourt Brace and has been for many years as a literary editor. Interviewer: And Douglas stayed home. Dorothy: And Douglas while he was in the service, no while he was studying for his exams and so forth to be a pilot met Sally Jones. Everybody always laughs and say did you make that up? No, he didn‟t make that up. That apparently was love at first sight, so they became engaged and the minute the war was over, why Douglas rushed out to California to marry Sally. And they came back, and he went to the University of Michigan to finish his education and of course they gave him credit for his years in the service. He graduated the University and went on to the Law School. Then he came to Grand Rapids to practice law, where he now is. And that is the saga of my four children. Interviewer: I think that is very interesting, and now I want to go back to your childhood in Auburn. Were both of your parents natives of Auburn? Dorothy: Oh, yes, you could hardly believe, Auburn would seem archaic now. I have made a lot of tapes of my early life there because it is so different from life today. I knew my children and grandchildren would never believe anything about it, written, spoken a good bit into tapes about that early history. Oh, it was one of the most beautiful cities in those days. It too had very wide streets and arching elms that really practically met over the street and many beautiful houses and as I told you, there was a great deal of money there. A lot of it had been inherited and there were some very profitable manufacturing concerns there. And it was a lovely small city. Oh, dear it doesn‟t look like that now at all, the trees; the elms all got the elm‟s disease. The way they did �14 across New York State. New York State is devastated, you can drive along these country roads and they are lined with dead trees. The farmers won‟t pay to have them taken down or can‟t. Why it is the most ghastly thing. You know, when Auburn was denuded of its trees, the houses in my youth that I thought were so beautiful, most of them were of the wrong period and large and handsome, but not beautiful, most of them. Now those generations, those two generations have gone, the young people have left town, most of them. Those old houses have turned into rooming houses, some of them torn down, not the same place at all. But I do want to tell you that my father started a factory in Auburn, when he went there. Let me see, they were married in eighteen….well, about the late seventies [1870‟s] and he started making composition buttons. Well then that went into typewriter keys from one thing to another and then finally into plastics. We celebrated our hundredth anniversary last year, it was eighteen seventy-three when he went into that business and my nephew is now the president of the Auburn Plastics Company, which is the descendant of his great-grandfather‟s concern, which is quite interesting because it is one thing that has survived in Auburn. We had many big plants there. We had the Osborn family who were really. William H. Seward came from Auburn, a most distinguished citizen. The old mansion where he and his wife lived and brought up their family had been owned by his wife‟s father and it was built in eighteen twenty-five as a gorgeous house of that period. It is open to the public now, and if you are ever near there you must go and see it; and it‟s exactly how it was when Lincoln‟s Secretary of State lived there and there are many interesting mementos of his trips to Europe when he was given personal gifts by heads of state. I remember going into that house when I was a child, by the front door was a perfectly enormous carved bear about four feet high with sticking claws out to hang umbrellas on or something. This thing towered over me and I was absolutely terrified of that thing all during my childhood. My grandfather and grandmother Woodruff lived next door and we were in and out of that house a great deal. And in the garden which is still much the way it was, is an old fashioned summer house, and Secretary Seward was sitting in that summer house when he received the news that he was defeated for the Presidency. And it had been won by an utterly unknown greenhorn from the far west called Abraham Lincoln. Interviewer: and Dorothy: laughter…. Dorothy: Well…. Interviewer: You mentioned the Osborn family? Wasn‟t there a member of…? Dorothy: Thomas Osborn became a great leader and expert in prison reform. His father had started out a little manufacturing business of farming implements. Well, they were very prosperous but along came the International Harvester finally and bought them out for several million dollars. So the Osborn family has always been rich; they were rich before and they are very well to do now. And Mr. Osborn sons bought the Auburn Daily Advertiser as it was in those days. Thomas Osborn great grandson is now President of the Auburn Citizen and it is a very excellent paper for that whole community. �15 Interviewer: It seems to me like one of those Osborns married into the S.F.D. Morse family of California. Dorothy: Yes, he did and they‟re now are divorced. Interviewer: I think I knew Dick Osborn. Dorothy: Yes, he did. I had heard that when I was there last year that they had been divorced. All that generation, I guessed, are divorced. I might tell you a little incident about my family, might interest you. Auburn was started in about eighteen eighteen, I guess. And they had a little sawmill there; a little river that ran through the village. It had been an Indian Village and there was an Indian tribe right near there. A Scotsman by the name of John Muir came to Auburn and prospered. He built a perfectly beautiful stone house, a lovely house. Well, when the Muir family died, may be not, my great-grandfather John Porter bought the house. He was a lawyer at that time; he was a member of the law firm from New York, that tried, where they had that famous trial, where Seward made his name, that Negro trial. Well anyway, my great grandfather bought that house. My grandmother and mother Beardsley were born in that house. My grandmother used to tell me very interesting stories about it. The basement had one of those enormous fireplaces of those days, eight feet wide or ten feet, big enough for a tree. Of course the whole place was surrounded with trees. You could go out and get trees and logs any place. So they always kept a fire going in the basement, and they welcomed the Indians. They kept their side door open all night in case the Indians wanted to come in. They always had an enormous pot of coffee hanging over the fire and they kept the fire going. And they would come in and sleep on the floor in their blankets and drink coffee. My grandmother said as a child she used to look out the window and see Indians shuffling by the house and going down the street wrapped in their blankets. And then anyway, after my great grandfather‟s death and his wife‟s death, the John Porters, the house was sold to a Mister John Rice. Later on my oldest brother Carlton married Mary Rice and they were married in the drawing room of that beautiful, beautiful old house, where my grandparents had been married and where my grandmother and my mother had been born, was a very interesting thing. An interlocking of the two families and later on my brother and his wife and children went over to the big house to live and they added on and fixed it up, and it was a beautiful house and still is. One of the Osborn boys, one of the descendants lives there now. He married a girl from Boston and they have six children, I guess they loved that big house. That was quite interesting. By and large, Auburn like every other place in the country is very, very different, these days. There were a great, for instance, a great many Victorians in Auburn. Now a small city of thirty-six thousand you wouldn‟t expect elegance like that quite number like the coachman, the man on the box and livery, a highly sophisticated elegant society. You can see why they thought I was coming out to be thrown to the Indians. Interviewer: Well, you‟ve survived and it has been a delightful afternoon. I appreciate your giving us your time. �16 Dorothy: I had no intention of making any personal remarks, about my family or anything. I am a little upset about that… Interviewer: Well, I think you have a remarkable and interesting family and that your children, immediate family have been born and brought up in Grand Rapids. They have had interesting careers in all instances. Dorothy: Well, they all love Grand Rapids. We all love it, and I‟m so happy to come back here now to live at Porter Hills, it is a wonderful place and I am lucky to be back here. Interviewer: We look forward to many more years of enjoyment. Dorothy: I don‟t know how many more….Anyway, I am very happy here. I have a good many old friends and I love it. Happy to be back in Auburn, I mean in Grand Rapids. Interviewer: Grand Rapids, you mean. We will turn it off. INDEX A Alliance Françoise · 6 American Red Cross · 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 Art Gallery · 6 Auburn Citizen · 14 Auburn Daily Advertiser · 14 Auburn Plastics Company · 14 B Backlund, Ralph · 11 Blodgett Hospital · 7 Blodgett, Mr. · 7 Blodgett, Mr. D.A. · 5 Blodgett, Mrs. John W. · 7 Boyden, Mr. · 8, 9 Brewer, Mr. · 3 D D.A. Blodgett Home · 7 Daniels, Miss · 4, 8 Deerfield Academy · 8 E Eccle, George · 11 Exeter · 9 F Ford, Jerry · 6 Fountain Street School · 8 G C Grand Rapids Trust Company · 2 Central High School · 8 Chase, Mr. and Mrs. · 6 Colgate · 1, 3, 8, 9 H Hall, Edith · 5 Harcourt Brace · 13 Harvard · 8, 12 �17 Hillman, Caroline · 9, 11, 12, 13 Hillman, Douglas · 9, 13 Hillman, Hermi · 9, 12, 13 Hillman, Hermione · 9 Hillman, Lem · 2, 3, 8, 11 Hillman, Serrell · 3, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13 Hodgen, Dr. and Mrs. · 8 Hollister, Mr. and Mrs. · 6 Hollister, Mrs. · 6, 7 Howe, Snow, Corrigan and Bertles · 3, 7 Hubbard, Betty & Monroe · 2 Hubbard, Betty Gates · 1 Hubbard, Monroe · 1 Hughes, Mrs. · 6 J Jones, Sally · 13 L Lincoln, Abraham · 14 M Michigan Trust Building · 2 Morse, S.F.D. · 15 Muir, John · 15 P Porter, John · 15 R Rice, John · 15 Rice, Mary · 15 S Seward, Secretary · 14 Seward, William H. · 14 Shanahan, Mr. and Mrs. · 6 Smith College · 11 Swift, Mrs. · 6 T Tinkham, Mr. and Mrs. Frederick · 2 U Underwood, Rosamond · 1, 3 University of Michigan · 9, 13 V N Vassar College · 4 New York Times · 11 W O Old Kent Bank · 6, 7 Osborn family · 14 Osborn, Dick · 15 White, T. Stewart · 5 Wickenden, Dan · 12 Woman‟s University Club · 6 Women‟s City Club · 6 Woodruff · 14 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1519fc7ec75c626f0b76cf4a523a9b46.mp3 524caec1e54c03977ed8bb7067a12556 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_47Hillman Title A name given to the resource Hillman, Dorothy Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hillman, Dorothy Description An account of the resource Dorothy Woodruff was born in Auburn, New York on January 13, 1887. She graduated from Smith College in 1909. In 1916 she and fellow Smith alumna Rosamund Underwood traveled to Colorado to teach at the Elkhead School. She married in 1917, and came to Grand Rapids in 1918. In 1936 she became the Executive Secretary of the American Red Cross in Grand Rapids and she served the Red Cross in Washington, D.C. during WWII. The Hillmans had two daughters, Caroline and Hermione, and two sons, Serrell and Douglas. Dorothy died on May 13, 1979. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1975 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d80dba05d1a485f553694b36c2ab69a8.pdf da7dd9cb98f645e645040777501c0f1b PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mr. George Shelby Interviewed on January 16, 1975 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #46 (1:25:23) Biographical Information George Cass Shelby was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on 5 December 1878, the son of William Read Shelby and Mary Kennedy Cass. In 1903 George was married to Ann Miller about 1903. George died 31 August 1975 in Blodgett Hospital in East Grand Rapids at the age of 96. Ann Miller was born in November 1882 in Grand Rapids. She was the daughter of John Miller and Martha Nicholson. Ann died 26 April 1941 in Grand Rapids and both George and Ann are buried in Oak Hill Cemetery. The father, William Read Shelby was born 4 December 1842 in Lincoln County, Kentucky and died at his home at 65 Lafayette NE 14 November 1930. The mother of George was Mary Kennedy Cass, born in Brownsville, Pennsylvania on 22 March 1847. She married William Shelby on 16 June 1869 in St. Stephen’s Church, Sewickley, Pennsylvania. Mary died in Grand Rapids on 3 May 1936. _____________ Interviewer: This recording is being made the afternoon of Friday or no, excuse me, it’s Thursday, Thursday, January the sixteen, nineteen seventy-five, at the residence of Mr. George Shelby, a house at two nineteen Youell, spelled Y-O-U-E-L-L, Street, Southeast, in Grand Rapids, Michigan. A, Mr. Shelby is, how old are you Mr. Shelby? Mr. Shelby: Ninety-six. Interviewer: You’re ninety-six years old. Mr. Shelby: December fifth. Interviewer: You’ve just passed your ninety-sixth birthday. Mr. Shelby: December the fifth. Interviewer: December the fifth? Mr. Shelby: Yeah. Interviewer: I see. You were born in Grand Rapids? Mr. Shelby: Yes. �2 Interviewer: I see. Do you remember, what were you, do you have any very early memories of, you know, what did you… Mr. Shelby: About Nursery you mean? Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Shelby: I think I went to Miss Reed’s Kindergarten. I remember that very well. It was up on the, on the north, Lafayette and Lyon Street, just beyond Lyon Street. I attended that. And also, a little place down there where that triangle where State and Portland… Interviewer: I know where. Mr. Shelby: Good. Interviewer: State and a… Mr. Shelby: Miss Reed’s. Interviewer: And Washington, maybe? Mr. Shelby: Yes, Washington. I attended kindergarten there. I mean, yes I was a pupil. Interviewer: Was Miss Reed at both locations? Mr. Shelby: No, I don’t remember the name of the kindergarten down there on State Street. Interviewer: I see. I want to turn it off and just make sure we’re recording right. Tell us about your experience at Miss Reed’s. Mr. Shelby: Well we were largely engaged in, making, recording maps of some sort, it was papery---weaving, making it into mats and designs of one kind or another. We thought were very good, very pretty. Interviewer: Like a mat of some sort? Mr. Shelby: We were commended for our stability. Interviewer: About how old were you then? Mr. Shelby: Oh I probably was, I don’t know whether I was three or four or five. Interviewer: Somewhere in there? Mr. Shelby: In infancy; I was surely an infant. Interviewer: Do you remember any other of the children that went there with you? �3 Mr. Shelby: Well I think Guy Widdicombe. Interviewer: Guy Widdicombe. Mr. Shelby: At State Street location. Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Shelby: I think he was sent there too. Interviewer: That’s John Widdicombe’s father. Mr. Shelby: John, that’s right. Interviewer: Do you remember any other children in that— Mr. Shelby: No, I don’t. No, I don’t remember any other children. Interviewer: I see. How many children do you suppose were in the school? Mr. Shelby: Oh I think seven or eight. Interviewer: Where did you go after that? Mr. Shelby: Oh, I think Fountain Street School. Interviewer: Where was that located Mr. Shelby? Mr. Shelby: On Fountain Street and, Prospect is it? Interviewer: Uh huh. Mr. Shelby: Fountain Street School. Interviewer: They moved it later on as I recall. Mr. Shelby: Yes. Fountain Street School I attended. Interviewer: How long were you there? Mr. Shelby: Oh, then I moved over to Lyon Street where they, where the school is there, don’t you know? Interviewer: Oh yes, Central Grammar School. Is that what you call it? Mr. Shelby: Oh yes, Grammar School. It’s right by where the doctor used to live, right across the corner from a, very prominent doctor lived there. What is his name? Interviewer: Dr. Campbell? No, no. �4 Mr. Shelby: No. Campbell was… Interviewer: This man lived across from the school? Mr. Shelby: Yes. He’s, his house is still there. He was one of our prominent surgeons at the time. Interviewer: Dr. Shephard. Mr. Shelby: No, it wasn’t Shephard. (A lady speaks in background) Mr. Shelby: Shephard lived, Shephard lived down, Shephard lived down on, Jefferson. Don’t you know where that restaurant is? The Dunham House was right next to the Shephards. Interviewer: The Holly house, oh yes, I see. We don’t, can’t remember the name of that doctor. Mr. Shelby: Famous doctor, a prominent surgeon in Grand Rapids at that time. He was right at the corner of Lyon and, Barclay, is it? His house is there now. Woman: Well, Dr. Smith, Dr. Smith’s father, Dr. Richard Smith… Mr. Shelby: No, I can’t think of his name. Interviewer: Maybe, maybe it’ll come back. Mr. Shelby: One of the, one of the most prominent physicians or surgeons in the city. Woman: I thought a, Dr. Richard Smith, haven’t you mentioned his brother? Mr. Shelby: Huh? Woman: Dr. Richard Smith? Mr. Shelby: No, no none of that element, that’s all later. Woman: No? Interviewer: Yes, oh yes. Were you living on Fountain Street or Lafayette at that time? Mr. Shelby: On Lafayette. Interviewer: On Lafayette. Mr. Shelby: We’ve sold that house, quite a number of people bought it, the man with the Alabasking company lived there for a while. I can’t remember his name. The Alabasking Company? Interviewer: Yes, I remember, yes. �5 Mr. Shelby: And then there was a club there of bachelors, and Fox was one of them, the Fox brothers, Charles Fox? Interviewer: Yes, on Crofton. Mr. Shelby: On Crofton. And then one or two others. One tall man, named Cook, he was about seven feet high. I know I used to watch him, you’d measure his height with a lamppost. What was his name now? Berguin. Interviewer: Berguin? Mr. Shelby: Berguin. He was seven feet two. And as he passed the lamppost his head was even with that. Berguin. Interviewer: About what year would that have been? Before the turn of the century? Mr. Shelby: It would, let’s see, eighteen eighty, eighteen ninety. It would be about seventy-eight, eighty. It was in the eighties. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: Eighteen eighty, around that neighborhood. Interviewer: What year do you think you moved to sixty-five Lafayette, Northeast? Mr. Shelby: I can’t remember exactly. Woman: How big were you? Mr. Shelby: In eighty eighteen (?). I was born in that house on Fountain Street. Interviewer: I see, you really were. Mr. Shelby: That was, Mrs. Booth asked me, do you remember that, this bedroom? She said. I said, Hardly Mrs. Booth, this is where I was born. That was also the Saint’s Rest Club, they called it. Interviewer: They called it the Saint’s Rest Club. I think I remember hearing about that. Mr. Shelby: That was, those were those bachelors. Interviewer: But they weren’t saints. Mr. Shelby: Yeah? Interviewer: Did they have a staff that took care of them? Mr. Shelby: I, they had a cook and maids, that’s all. Then later… �6 Woman: How old were you? Mr. Shelby:..they built the castle. Interviewer: The Foxes, the Foxes? Mr. Shelby: How old was I at that time? Woman: When you moved around the corner? Woman: Were you in school? Mr. Shelby: Oh I don’t know precisely. Mr. Shelby: Maybe seven or eight. I don’t remember elementary school precisely. I don’t remember exactly when Father, when we moved to Lafayette Avenue. And my aunt, see that property was bought by my grandfather for my father and mother. Interviewer: Your grandfather, grandfather Cass? Mr. Shelby: Yes, Grandfather Cass, George W. Cass, of New York. He at that time was a railroad president for the Pennsylvania from Pittsburg you see. And he bought the corner house and, for his son-in-law, Mr. Whalen, Henry D. Whalen. My Aunt Augustin, they lived there, on the corner house. That’s the one that --- is living in now. Then that was subsequently oh three, many people owned it other than that, the Rosenthal family moved in from Rochester. The clothing people. The tower clothing company, you know? Where the big clock is? Interviewer: Oh yes, yes, Rosenthal. Mr. Shelby: They lived there for quite a while, the Rosenthals. Interviewer: Tower Clock building is the building where Woolworths is now. Mr. Shelby: Where Woolworths is, yeah. That was one of the most prominent buildings in town. Interviewer: Let me just go on to another subject for the moment. I know that you went to St. Paul’s School in Concord, New Hampshire, that’s correct? Mr. Shelby: That is right. I had two brothers ahead of me, my brother Cass, the oldest, and then my brother Walter. Interviewer: They both went to St. Paul’s? Mr. Shelby: To St. Paul’s. Interviewer: What, how old were you when you went to St. Paul’s? �7 Mr. Shelby: I think I was about eleven or somewhere around there. Interviewer: Really, that young? So you must have stayed there quite a long time. Mr. Shelby: Oh yes, I was young. Because I won a race there, there’s the cup. Interviewer: Is there a date on that cup? Mr. Shelby: That was about… Woman: He said he was a very lonesome little boy. Mr. Shelby: Cross-Country cup. Woman: He’s been back many times at his reunions and all. Interviewer: Yes, I know. Let me see if I can read it. It’s a pretty cup. Woman: It is. Mr. Shelby: Eighteen ninety-four, is it? St. Paul’s School. Interviewer: Well then you would have been about sixteen at that time? Woman: That was just before he went to --Mr. Shelby: Can you read that? Interviewer: I’ll try, let’s see. Woman: He went when he was about eleven. Mr. Shelby: That was a common, like at Oxford and Cambridge and English schools, there were copies of, the rector was a great admirer of England you know and English schools, so St. Paul’s was modeled after them. Interviewer: It says Easter, eighteen ninety-four here. And then it says, lower school. Mr. Shelby: The lower school was for the boys, only twelve and thirteen years old, it’s a, yeah. Interviewer: Well then it says, aaron hollenzs/hounds (?) Mr. Shelby: Yeah, that’s a typical English custom in school. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: Cross Country running. Interviewer: Do you remember the name of the headmaster? �8 Mr. Shelby: Aaron Hollenzs/Hounds you mean? Interviewer: No, the headmaster of Saint Paul’s. Mr. Shelby: Dr. Coit. Interviewer: Dr. Coit. Mr. Shelby: Henry Coit. Interviewer: Henry Coit. Mr. Shelby: Yeah. Interviewer: Was he there for quite a long time? Mr. Shelby: Oh yes, he lived there and died there. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: About seventy-five. He had two brothers, Dr. Milner Coit who was a doctor, and one other one that was a clergyman too. It was very much of a church school, Episcopal Church school, modeled after English schools you know. Interviewer: What was your class at Yale? Mr. Shelby: Huh? Interviewer: What was your class at Yale? Mr. Shelby: Nineteen hundred. Interviewer: Nineteen hundred. Mr. Shelby: It was when I graduated. Interviewer: Uh-huh. Mr. Shelby: eighteen ninety-six to nineteen hundred. Interviewer: So you went four years? Mr. Shelby: Yes, four years. Interviewer: Did you like Yale? Mr. Shelby: Did I like it? Interviewer: Yes. �9 Mr. Shelby: Yes, but I had a good time towards the last. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: I was, not too brilliant. I was just an ordinary pupil, don’t you know? Interviewer: Did you go back to your most recent reunion or? Woman: Yes. Mr. Shelby: I have been, yes. I have been, I guess maybe, how many years ago was it? Woman: Nineteen seventy. Mr. Shelby: Huh? Woman: You’ve been to every one for the last five years. Interviewer: Nineteen seventy. Woman: For about the last twenty years now. And quite a few before that. Interviewer: That would have been your seventieth reunion, right? Mr. Shelby: There’s no point in going back now because there’s nobody living but myself and Harry Wells, and he’s so lame he can’t navigate. Woman: Last time they sat Interviewer: Of course. Mr. Shelby: I think there’s about forty boys in my class, the class of nineteen hundred. Interviewer: Nineteen hundred. Mr. Shelby: Started in at that number, I think about thirty graduated I would think. Interviewer: Did you stay most of the time in New Haven or did you go to New York on weekends or what did you? Mr. Shelby: Oh, occasionally. They frowned on that sort of thing. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: They rather discouraged your leaving New Haven. I mean, other things being equal. You weren’t a prisoner, but the less you done ---, the more they were pleased. Woman: It’s different now I think. �10 Interviewer: I just wanted to ask you, going back to earlier days in Grand Rapids, I believe you’re a member of Saint Mark’s, correct? Mr. Shelby: Yes. Interviewer: Were you baptized in that church? Mr. Shelby: Yes. Interviewer: In those days did families have their own pews? Mr. Shelby: Yes. Pew 93. Interviewer: Pew 93. Mr. Shelby: Yes. Still have it. Interviewer: Did you have to pay an annual rental in those days? Mr. Shelby: Yes. Interviewer: Do you know what it was? Mr. Shelby: No, I don’t. My father took care of that. Interviewer: Well I remember it was customary in those days… Mr. Shelby: He was a vestrament (?) they called him. --Interviewer: Wasn’t he senior warden also? Mr. Shelby: Yes, senior warden, yes. Interviewer: Well now to go back again to your, to Grand Rapids, what did you, when you were a young person, what did you do for a social life in Grand Rapids? Mr. Shelby: We went to barn dances and dances, dancing school. Gage and Benedick’s Dancing School. Interviewer: Gage and Benedick’s.Yeah, where was that? Mr. Shelby: Miss Gage and Miss Benedick. -----and they were giving the hell to these arm wrists (?), they call them arm wrists the local cooks those arm wrists Interviewer: Yes. �11 Mr. Shelby: I think there’s one right, one was located about – opposite of Michigan on Ionia Street, where Michigan National Bank is right across the street or where Central Bank is, I think there’s an armory there. And later on, the St. Cecilia. Interviewer: Later on St. Cecilia. We’re going to talk about winter sports, what did you do in the winter? Mr. Shelby: Skating largely; sliding down Fountain Street. Woman: And Michigan. Mr. Shelby: That hill was black with sleds. We got so angry with the hacks, they’d get in the way you know, they were not supposed to be, a whole bunch of hacks lined up at the Morton House, outside the Morton House. Interviewer: Would they start right up at Lafayette? Mr. Shelby: Yeah. Interviewer: And how far down would they go? Mr. Shelby: To Division Street. Interviewer: All the way to Division? Mr. Shelby: Yeah. Depended upon the condition of the slide, of the board. There’d by thirty people. Ed Earl had a bob, bobs you know, thirty-foot bobs. Interviewer: That’s Mr. Edward Earl? Mr. Shelby: Edward Earl, the corner of Fountain and Lafayette. It was Ed, Ed, the youngest one, not Fred, not the father. He had a thirty foot bob ----. Thirty boys and girls. It was a pretty swift… Interviewer: I’ll bet it was. Mr. Shelby: We’d, it was so slippery, that they had to put sand on the, down where the Union Bank is, the foot of the street, so you wouldn’t turn into Monroe. That was some slide. Interviewer: Was there sliding on that hill too? Mr. Shelby: Oh yes. The dam, the reservoir, dangerous you know. Sure. Interviewer: Were there other hills? �12 Mr. Shelby: New Year’s Day the city had Mid Street, the streets were blocked off, and the hill was given to sliding. Interviewer: You’re talking about what we now call Michigan Street? Mr. Shelby: Yes. Interviewer: Where did you start? At the top or? Mr. Shelby: Right on, well about, I’d think Barclay about, seems I remember. Interviewer: Barclay, yeah. And how far down did they go? Mr. Shelby: They’d go down to where the hotel is. Interviewer: All the way to Monroe. Mr. Shelby: They’d put sand out to stop them. Those went down at a terrible pace; thirty people on those bobs you know. I wouldn’t say a mile a minute but, you know, seemed like it. They say forty miles an hour or something like that. Interviewer: I wouldn’t be surprised. Where did you do your skating? Mr. Shelby: At Reed’s Lake. Interviewer: Reed’s Lake. Was there a place out there where you could warm up? Mr. Shelby: Yes, there was. I’ve forgotten the name of the man that ran it. Yeah. It’s right where the Lakeside Club was later built. Interviewer: Let’s see now. Going back to social life again, were there any clubs for younger people, for younger men? Mr. Shelby: Saints Rest, you see I’m trying to think of… Woman: Something on the River that you spoke of--Mr. Shelby: Oh yes, Boat and Canoe Club; I belonged to that up at North Park. Interviewer: Do you remember some of the other people who were active in that? Mr. Shelby: No, I don’t. I don’t remember. It was quite a big club. It was located right before you get on the bridge, crossing the river, that was the headquarters. Interviewer: Would that be Ann Street perhaps today? Mr. Shelby: Huh? �13 Interviewer: That would be Ann Street today? Mr. Shelby: Possibly, I don’t remember. I wouldn’t want to say definitely. It’s right as you start across onto the bridge to cross the river. Interviewer: I know that in the old days the most common form of transportation was, well, street cars. Mr. Shelby: Well, but the dummies… Interviewer: But now that brings up a question: What was the dummy line or the dummy? Mr. Shelby: It was a, some sort of an engine, that pulled a so open car, where you sat, seats across seats you know. Interviewer: Was it a stream engine? Mr. Shelby: I think so yes. Interviewer: In other words, did the streetcar stop at a certain place and then you got into another kind of a vehicle? Mr. Shelby: Yeah. Same way at Reed’s Lake. Interviewer: Where did you change to get on the dummy there? Mr. Shelby: Right there on Eastern Avenue where that funeral parlor is. You corralled, it was fenced in there. That’s as far as the streetcar went, send you down on the dummy. Then you went down, straight down the street and then turned and went, headed for Reed’s Lake. Was about a twenty or thirty minute ride on the dummy to get to the lake. Interviewer: Was that quite a summer resort place too in those days? Mr. Shelby: Well, not exactly no. No. Interviewer: Did they have boats on the lake? Mr. Shelby: Yeah, they had amusements, yeah boats. They had, well Manhattan Beach they had boats across the lake. There were two boats and they were always fighting one another, bumping into one another, having battles. Woman: Big boats? Interviewer: Were they large boats? Mr. Shelby: Well, one was big, broad, broad one you know…Bud used to work on one of them. �14 Woman: What were those boats? The Watson? Interviewer: One of the last ones was the Ramona that I remember. And then there was one called the Hazel A and one called the Major Watson I think it was called. Mr. Shelby: Yeah, Major Watson. That Dago that owned, one day was having a battle you know, they wanted to run into, ram the Major Watson. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: He was a smaller, trim little boat. I’ve forgotten the name of the owner, the Italian, but his dock was –that way – Interviewer: Now your father came here with the, to be, to run the Grand Rapids and Indiana Railroad, is that correct? Mr. Shelby: That’s right. Interviewer: And your grandfather Cass was president of the… Mr. Shelby: Fort Wayne, Cincinnati-Fort Wayne, Chicago-Cincinnati, yes, the Pennsylvania from Pittsburgh to Chicago. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: Pittsburgh, Fort Wayne, and Chicago I think was the title. Interviewer: Were there other members of the family in that railroad? Mr. Shelby: No, no. Interviewer: I see. Tell me about your uncle, Mr. Henry D. Whalen Jr. Who, What did he do? Mr. Shelby: I don’t know, other than Grandfather bought that house on Fountain and Lafayette for Mr. Whalen and my Aunt Augusta. Henry D. Whalen is. And Michigan Iron Works is what he was head of, and my grandfather put him into it. It was a medium-size organization. And he was head of the Michigan Iron Works; he was the son-in-law of George W. Cass, as my father was. Woman: Did he go to Westpoint, your father? Did Henry Whalen, he went to Westpoint? Mr. Shelby: Did what? Interviewer: Did he go to Westpoint? Woman: Westpoint? The school? Henry Whalen? �15 Mr. Shelby: Oh, I don’t remember. Woman: I was wondering if he was in the army. Mr. Shelby: Very possibly he did. My grandfather went to Westpoint for sure. George W. Cass did. Woman: -and someone else did. Mr. Shelby: He was a mathematician. I missed out on the mathematics, I’ve had to contend with all my life. Interviewer: Do you remember your grandfather Cass? Mr. Shelby: Oh yes. Interviewer: Did he come to Grand Rapids or did you go to see him? Mr. Shelby: Occasionally. Interviewer: Did you go to visit him? Mr. Shelby: Yes, I remember him very well. He lived at 52 West Fifty-Seventh Street. Interviewer: 52 West Fifty-Seventh Street. Woman: In New York. Mr. Shelby: He was quite severe to me. Interviewer: Now, didn’t they have a home in S--- Pennsylvania? Mr. Shelby: Yes, that’s, yes he did. Interviewer: He had two homes then? Mr. Shelby: He had two homes, first in Allegheny and then in S---. C--- they called the name of it. Had ___, which is a suburb of Pittsburg. There is quite a noted author person who came and lived there. I can’t remember her name now. She bought it. Interviewer: I can’t remember Women: Mary Reynold Reinhart? Interviewere: Mary Reynold Reinhart perhaps? Mr. Shelby: Oh yeah. She bought it. �16 Interviewer: Now, did he have the house in New York at the same that he had the house in S_ikcley (?) Mr. Shelby: I’m pretty sure, I don’t remember about that one, no. Interviewer: But you knew the address. Mr. Shelby: Well 52 West 57th Woman: That’s where you used to go and visit. Mr. Shelby: Right across the street was the sonspace (?). Tall, long stone apartment which was called an apartment building, it was rather unusual because they weren’t many of them in New York at that time. Interviewer: What was the name of it again, please? Mr. Shelby: The sauncee I guess. I don’t know how to spell it. It was an apartment building. Interviewer: How little would you have been when you weren’t to go see your grandfather? Mr. Shelby: Oh, well I think it would be fourteen or something like that. Interviewer: I see, well, now… Mr. Shelby: Now we sent down by our grandfather’s casket, we’ll get a little culture, we were considered a little build raw and wild having gone from Grand Rapids. Interviewer: Well you were going to St. Paul’s and Yale, but that was… Mr. Shelby: Later on… Interviewer: right, that’s right. Mr. Shelby: Preceding that I was groomed to walk down 5th avenue and to look like I belonged. Interviewer: I see. Mr .Shelby: I still had what I was considered a little wild compared with my cousin Kenny Wallen. I was a little more aggressive. He was quieter and a little bit bored. He didn’t have the help as I did or the buoyancy. And I suppose Sunday is full with very impressive the procession on 5th avenue, of people going to churches and the various churches, the various clubs you know. Interviewer: Where did your grandfather go to church? Mr. Shelby: Christ church. In fact he was a vestament (?). What do you call them? Interviewer: Yes, vestament. �17 Mr. Shelby: Yeah you know he was, he bought a beard of course, I remember that. He could be very quiet and very severe, and make you feel like a, you know, a shrimp. I was taken out there to try to get a little bit of the western blood out of me, don’t you know. In New York you have to baby yourself. You walk very sedately; hold your grandfather’s hand. Interviewer: Did you know your grandmother too? Mr. Shelby: Oh yes, she was invalid most of her life, but I knew her. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: Had nurses all the time and probably rubbings and you know…she was more or less in a state of invalidism. Interviewer: I see. Your grandfather lived to an advanced age? Mr. Shelby: Did he what? Interviewer: Did he live to an advanced age? Mr. Shelby: I think it was in the high 70’s I would say. Interviewer: High 70’s. I see. Mr. Shelby: Like 78 or some such… nothing like my father, my father lived to be 90, 89 really. Interviewer: 89. Mr. Shelby: My mother (life was)? Interviewer: Where was your mother’s, excuse me, where did your father’s family come from? Mr. Shelby: Kentucky. Danville, Kentucky. Interviewer: What about Shelbyville? Where does that figure? Mr. Shelby: Oh I think they just used them as names. They they they just liked the name Shelby. I don’t think it was… Interviewer: I see, so they are really from Danville, Kentucky. Mr. Shelby: Danville, yeah. Isaac Shelby was the youngest in Kentucky and he lived, I think in Danville Kentucky. Anyway, I’d have to…I’d been to that, to see the places over. Interviewer: Do you have any relatives left down there that you know or know anything about? Mr. Shelby: I don’t think so, no. �18 Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: No. Interviewer: Well now when, after you got out of Yale, did you come right back to Grand Rapids? Mr. Shelby: I went to Europe. Interviewer: Oh, you went to Europe. Well tell us about that. Mr. Shelby: Well we went out of Minneapolis. There was a boat that carried cattle. Took 15 days to cross and we were limited to about 15 or 15 or 20 people, 15 I would say, nice people. Interviewer: Did you go… Mr. Shelby: I mean I Interviewer: Did you go with your family? Mr. Shelby: No, just Harry Whittaker and myself and these people. There were some relatives of Yale families aboard this camp. She quite a stunning girl, I remember, she was a decent quarter camp she was very famous at Yale. Woman: I remember hearing about Walter Camp. Interviewer: Walter Camp, a big figure at Yale. Woman: A famous athlete, but I don’t know what sport. Was he football player, or what was he father? Mr. Shelby: Uh, I forget, yeah I think so. She was out there, and her mother. We had the whole ship the cattle were below you. You didn’t even know they were there. I mean there was, there wasn’t any contact with them. Interviewer: 15 days. Mr. Shelby: Yeah… Interviewer: Where did you… Mr. Shelby: Minneapolis Interviewer: Where did you land when you got there? Mr. Shelby: We landed in London. Interviewer: In London. �19 Mr. Shelby: In London. Then we had to take a tram up to London. Interviewer: Did you go, well maybe you landed in South Hampton? Mr. Shelby: Yeah, South Hampton. I think so, yeah. Right at the foot of the Themes River. Interviewer: Well, maybe you did land closer to London. Mr. Shelby: Once every 15 miles a trip up the tram was, they called it up to the town you know. And we walked right up to the Fogger (?) Square, I remember the hotel very well. North Umberland (?) Avenue. A very short street. There was a clubhouse across the street from them but it was a 7 story clubhouse I used to see club men go up in an out of that and that time I was there. So I went in there and I was, and at that time Harry’s sister, Mary and some woman from Kalamazoo had apartments up on one of the avenues. One of those fashionable streets, you know, up near the Arch de Triumph. Interviewer: Now wait, I lack, we got from London to Paris pretty quickly. How long did you stay in London? Mr. Shelby: Oh well I think we were there maybe 10 days or so before we went to Paris. Woman: They climbed up to the top of St. Paul’s and they… Interviewer: Now you, you went, you climbed up to the top of St. Paul’s? St. Paul’s cathedral? Mr. Shelby: Yes, yes we did. Both of us, that’s about 500 steps. Woman: Father, who was the man who took you around the dock? Where the… Mr. Shelby: Oh, oh that was later on when I was aboard a, I was on board one of these double decker buses you know, and a man sat down next to me and said ―You are an American aren’t you?‖ and I said, yes I am. Well he says ―I am William Louis‖, or what did I say? What did I say? Well he said ―I’m Good’s manager for London’s southwest royalty, perhaps you would like to see the London dock.‖ Yeah, then I said, yeah I certainly would. So he gave me a pass to go to the London dock. Which I did and everything under the sun that England brings by boat is stored there. Elephant tusks and rhinoceros horns, and hides and everything under the sun that comes from all over the world where England has got a count in it, there’s a store there on bond. You see and it’s drawn by order you know, the London dock can be very very expensive. Interviewer: Was this there, on the first trip you took? Mr. Shelby: Yes, this is then. Interviewer: You saw this on your first trip? �20 Mr. Shelby: Yes it is. There I was sitting on top of a bus when this man recognized me. I said, how’d you know? He said ―Well you are worried about both of you‖ he says, I saw that, a boater (?). Interviewer: Well then you went to Paris. Mr. Shelby: William Wilkins. Yeah, and then I went to Paris. And mother had a house there, and mother and my sister Violet had an apartment there too. But I spent my time in Paris roaming about the city like anyone would you know. Interviewer: You said that your sister Mary had a, no excuse me, Mr. Whittaker’s sister.. Mr. Shelby: Violet. My sister Violet. Interviewer: Your sister, but also Mr. Whittaker’s sister had uh... Mr. Shelby: Well she and a Mrs. from Kalamazoo, I can’t remember the women’s name had this apartment up near the Arch de Triumph right in the very center of Paris. Interviewer: And your mother and your sister also had a… Mr. Shelby: We were living on the West bank (?) Interviewer: Your mother and sister, were they there at the same time you were? Mr. Shelby: Uh, no later. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: Yeah. Woman: They were there when father was there though. They came over there. Interviewer: Did you Mr. Shelby: We were there in Paris for maybe a week or 10 days. We were booked for Howmagmiow (???) a fashion play down in Austria. And so Harry and I went to that and it was, and we had to go through Germany down into where the fashion play was. We saw that and it was all day long in the… Interviewer: Does that mean, would you have traveled all the way by train? Mr. Shelby: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Munich. Not which I would recommend that name I remember. Interviewer: And after the fashion play where did you go? Mr. Shelby: Then we came back to Paris and… �21 Interviewer: And you returned to this country from France? Mr. Shelby: Yes, I came back with my mother and sister. Woman: You went to Holland. Mr. Shelby: No, Holland is where we landed. Interviewer: I see. Woman: Ok yeah. Mr. Shelby: On our trip out from here, when we came from this side. Woman: So maybe from England. Mr. Shelby: That was very customary, the fashion play was believe it or not, wasn’t an annual thing as I remember but it’s still going on I guess. Interviewer: Well now when you got back from Europe, what did you do? Did you go to work right away, or…? Mr. Shelby: We would work in Papa’s office in the treasury department. Interviewer: And how long did you stay there? Mr. Shelby: Umm, quite a good many years. Interviewer: Where was his office? Mr. Shelby: In the GR and I building, the railroad office on Ionia street. Interviewer: the _LAD plant? Interviewer: Was that the building that was torn down about 10 years ago? Mr. Shelby: Yeah yeah. Interviewer: I remember it. Mr. Shelby: I worked in that on the books you know, oh agents agents were___ I would take them down to the bank you know. All the money that would come in from the ticket sales all along the line, from Richmond down to Mackinac. Woman: Then you went up to Al Gold Mine(?) and built the railroad. Mr. Shelby: What? Woman: When did you go up to Al Gold Mine(?) ? �22 Mr. Shelby: Oh that was later on. Woman: Oh. Mr. Shelby: Yeah later on. Woman: That must have been hard. Mr. Shelby: Later on the Al Gold (?) had sent the railway it was formed by the Canadian people from the Pennsylvania railroad thought that we might have some connection with it so they suggested my father they, so they said send a representative up to see how the railroad was getting on, and I was the boy that went there. And I was landed in the Sault and I took a boat, I took a boat from the Sault to this point where Montreal was it Montreal river empties in to Lake Superior. From there I was dumped all into the steamer, and the steamer into about 6 feet of water. Like a dungeon. I am like soaking wet you know, I made that trip with an Indian and a squall and they were down somewhere further further in the steamer and then I had to walk from there to where the camp was, about 12 miles inland. Interviewer: What year, what year would that have been Mr. Shelby? Mr. Shelby: Let’s see… Interviewer: Near the 1900’s we know that… Mr. Shelby: Maybe 19-6 or so, something like that. After I had been to the GR. So that Mr. Mckray was the president of the Pennsylvania Railroad at that time suggests to my father that someone will be up there looking after their interests, and I was the boy that was sent. Interviewer: How long did you stay? Mr. Shelby: Oh, I stayed until December. Interviewer: Was there a settlement up there, or a little town? Mr. Shelby: No, just the railway, just building the railway. Interviewer: Just the…I see, I see. Mr. Shelby: Laying the track. Interviewer: I see, actually building the railway Mr. Shelby: Right away, yeah Interviewer: mmhmm �23 Mr. Shelby: But it was quite picturesque spot right next to the Montreal River. They’ve since dammed it, to the lake there. But there was a waterfall right, we camped at a waterfall, we looked down the little waterfall. This you know, the Canadian engineer and his helper and I was timekeeper. I walked everyday about 10 or 15 miles to take the time of then on the job you know. Interviewer: Would this have been north of Lake Superior? Mr. Shelby: Yes on the north side of Lake Superior. Interviewer: mmhmm, mmhmm. Mr. Shelby: Yeah. Woman: There is a railroad there now an excursion. Mr. Shelby: Yeah, there is a complete railway now, it goes about 300 miles on the s---? Interviewer: Is that that new that excursion that goes from Sault Ste Marie? Mr. Shelby: Out over __ Hudson Bay. Interviewer: Quite popular now. Women: Quite mountainous. Mr. Shelby: Yeah we took we took last year a train there you know it was delightful. There’s a there’s a stone there’s …I think I picked up that stone at the canyon it’s over there that round, get it. Yeah that round stone. Well… Interviewer: Well we’ll turn it off… Mr. Shelby: It’s because I picked that up and bought a stone. Interviewer: That’s a very beautiful stone. Mr. Shelby: Isn’t it? I’m crazy about stones. It was from the ___ canyon. Interviewer: Does that weigh about 10 lbs? Does that weight about 10 lbs. Mr. Shelby: Yeah I’d say about that. They tell a story. That waterfalls and the cascades at that canyon. In fact I have got descriptive literature and pamphlets up here. Interviewer: Well now, were you married at this time? Mr. Shelby: I think so. Woman: Yeah if it was 19… �24 Mr. Shelby: No, no I wasn’t. Interviewer: Do you remember was it… Mr. Shelby: No, I wasn’t married. Interviewer: Do you remember the year you were married? Mr. Shelby: No, I wasn’t married at that time. I was single. Interviewer: I see. Were you married in Grand Rapids? Mr. Shelby: No, I’m not…I can’t remember… Woman: Was it Indianapolis? Mr. Shelby: …no I’m trying to… Woman: Anyway they went to visit that nice place down in Carolina. Interviewer: Well there are quite a few places. Woman: Ashville, Ashville. I don’t think they got married down there, I think it was someplace in Indiana. Interviewer: Where did you live after you were married Mr. Shelby? Mr. Shelby: Hmm, I was trying to think about it. Woman: Barkley, Barkley Street. Mr. Shelby: Oh yeah, on Barkley Street. That’s right. Interviewer: Whereabouts? Do you remember the number? Mr. Shelby: Yeah, well it was an apartment building. Did, did…a red brick apartment building. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: It was just a going down Fountain Street you could look glance up Barkley Street you could see the building from there. I wouldn’t know the number; it was a two story building. Woman: You have to take Clark to get there. Interviewer: Yeah, I think I know the building, right. Mr. Shelby: It’s still there. Interviewer: Mmhmm, yeah. �25 Mr. Shelby: You can see it if you walk up Fountain Street, you can see it. Interviewer: Yup. Mr. Shelby: Yeah. Interviewer: That was your first home? Mr. Shelby: Yeah, that’s right, that’s right. Interviewer: Well now, I understand you went to California. When did you go to California? Mr. Shelby: I’m not exactly, I’ve forgotten now. Woman: It must have been 1910. Interviewer: Was it about 1910? Mr. Shelby: I’ve forgotten exactly. Interviewer: Well… Mr. Shelby: I had gotten interested through the Santé Fe people in the establishment of a colony to grow fruits, you know? Interviewer: Mmhmm. Mr. Shelby: And they were retired to it later on. Then my money bought the tract. Out in Reedley California. Interviewer: Where was it in California? Mr. Shelby: Reedley. Interviewer: Where is that? Mr. Shelby: Well it’s right in the central valley, central to the San Joaquin Valley. Interviewer: How do you, how do you spell Reedley? Mr. Shelby: R-double E-D-L-E-Y. Interviewer: uh huh. Mr. Shelby: Reedley California. It was outside of that of a small town. Where the where the I named the tract after after my wife Annadelle Colony. And it was through, it was by the foot of Mt. Campbell was this tract of land, right at the foot of the high Sierras. Interviewer: mmhmm. �26 Mr. Shelby: The high Sierras began in the San Joaquin Valley right west of our land. You would look up at the high Sierras. Had a wonderful view of the mountains, the high Sierras. Interviewer: You raised oranges? Mr. Shelby: Yes, that’s what the idea, yeah, then… Interviewer: And how long were you there doing that? Mr. Shelby: Oh, say I was maybe 10 or 15 years I would say. Woman: 1922? Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: And those, Bill was born there, and Cameron. Woman: 1922? Mr. Shelby: But I was in charge, in charge of the development though you know this used to be Santé Fe employees when they retired would move out to their place to their rows and develop it. It was tracts you know, the colony was. Each owner. Interviewer: How much was it when you started? Mr. Shelby: I had 20 acres, and one or two men had 40 acres. Interviewer: Oh really? Mr. Shelby: But they. Interviewer: I’m going to turn the tape over. Interviewer: Now this is side 2 of the interview recorded with Mr. George Shelby on Thursday, January 16, 1975. Ok, you were talking about the grove, and you mentioned that you also grew figs out there. Mr. Shelby: Yes, 5 acres of figs, and 15 of oranges. Interviewer: Was there some sort of a central building, where people gathered? Mr. Shelby: No, no not... Interviewer: I see, your individual homes? Mr. Shelby: Individual homes. Interviewer: Mmhmm. �27 Mr. Shelby: There were 2 or 3 others that were small, we were cottages. I don’t think, that was our little house. Interviewer: I see it, yeah. Mr. Shelby: This was Mount Campbell. You can’t you can’t see the top of it. Woman: Many trees though. Mr. Shelby: That’s about a thousand feet high, and this is all level ground. And on this side there was another mountain, Mount Chomininee and there’s about, you go through the gap you’ve got the Fresno about 25 miles away that way. Interviewer: Hmm Mr. Shelby: And that’s Bill, Interviewer: That’s Bill. Mr. Shelby: and that’s Eleanor, and there’s County, the horse. Interviewer: Yeah. Mr. Shelby: And that was, that was that little house I put up and I think it was cost about 800 dollars. Interviewer: Really? Mr. Shelby: Yeah, put it up in about 2 days. I mean, the carpenters did it. Of course after that we enlarged it. We added a porch. Interviewer: Here’s another picture Mr. Shelby, Eleanor got. Mr. Shelby: Mmhmm, yeah. Yeah, that’s Bill, Eleanor and a little pool I built. Well, of course this after the first year and we kept embellishing it, all the time. Looks quite a finished place. Interviewer: How many people were there? Mr. Shelby: Nobody else at that time up until the time we left, except the hired men in the other 20’s and 40’s. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: They were there in the small houses you know. We were the only people who had a fairly sized place and kept enlarging it. Interviewer: In what year do you think you returned to Grand Rapids? �28 Mr. Shelby: Gosh, let me see. Interviewer: Sometimes during the 1920’s I would… Mr. Shelby: I think so. Woman: I think about ’22? Interviewer: Your daughter says… Mr. Shelby: My father and mother came out and visited me several times, but I find this sold out you know, can’t return to Grand Rapids and return to the railroads. Interviewer: How long were you with the railroads, again? Mr. Shelby: Oh let’s see, I can’t remember the dates. Well I remember we got them, I got to representing firms for insurance stock in Chicago. Billy Baker got me into that. I wasn’t doing anything for awhile. Interviewer: Who was Billy Baker? Mr. Shelby: Well he was just a Grand Rapids boy. Billy Baker, his brother was quite prominent. I don’t, they were in the brokers business. He got me interested, I represented, what did I do? The fire insurance you know that sort of stuff. Interviewer: Mmhmm. Mr.Shelby: Then I got into the investment business. Interviewer: Let’s go back to the your association with Mr. Baker, where did you have an office then? Mr.Shelby: In the Michigan Trust building. Interviewer: In the Michigan Trust building. Mr. Shelby: In the Michigan Trust building. Interviewer: Then you got into the brokerage business, or? Mr. Shelby: Yeah, I got into the, I can’t think of his name he was very prominent, he represented the LeeAgents (?) and Company, they were the top people in the United States in that in the brokerage business you know. Interviewer: LeeAgents and Company. �29 Mr. Shelby: They were nationwide. I mean, in the eastern part of the state. They, what killed them was the suicide of Iber Kreuger in Paris this was east liberty, between liberty and so Lee Havenson was ruined, and I’m trying to think of the man who got me interested in Lee Havenson. His son is also the trustee. What is his name? Tall, Arthur? What is his name? Funny I can’t think of it. Well anyway he he was a representative of Lee Havenson and he invited me to join them as a join representative of the Lee Havenson company. We were in the Michigan Trust building up on the 9th floor I think. And after this happened, when this man committed suicide, Lee Havenson finally went into bankruptcy I guess as a result of that, his suicide. Then a Mr. Mcmhoffan invited me to join their firm and I was there ever since. John Mcmhoffan invited me. Interviewer: Yes, John Mcmhoffan. Mr. Shelby: Mumbling. Interviewer: When did Sam Greenwalt join that firm? Mr. Shelby: When did what? Interviewer: When did Sam Greenwalt join the firm? Mr. Shelby: Well I guess they were original firm this, I don’t know that he joined it. He was he was the trader they called him, managed it. And John was the was the president he was vice president, Sam Greenwalt was vice president. Interviewer: Mmhmm. Mr. Shelby: I don’t know how many years they had been established when I joined them, but quite a few years, maybe 10 years. I think you could get some confirmation to that from Ms. Romence would know that. Maude Romence would know. Interviewer: Maude Romence? Mr. Shelby: Yeah Interviewer: R-O-M-A-N-C-E? Mr. Shelby: She would know all about it, she was secretary. Huh? Interviewer: How do you spell her name? Mr. Shelby: R-O-M-E-N-C-E Interviewer: E-N-C-E, oh. Mr. Shelby: She was secretary of the, Ray Brinn was the cashier, I remember him being small, short and dumpy. I can’t remember his association but he took care of the books. But anyway, I �30 was Mr. Mcmhoffan invited me into the firm and put on Greenwall’s told me which had been going maybe some 10 years maybe, I couldn’t tell you exactly when. Interviewer: Yeah. Mr. Shelby: …and I’ve been with him ever since. Interviewer: Where are they now Mr. Shelby? Mr. Shelby: Well Mr. Mcmhoffan, Interviewer: No, I mean where is the firm? Mr. Shelby: Oh it’s it’s, well it’s in the Michigan Trust building. In the old kindle. Interviewer: In the old kindle. Yeah. Mr. Shelby: Yeah, but it isn’t a firm anymore. We’ve off and died and sold us in. Suddenly it keeled over and…you know. Interviewer: I remember. Mr. Shelby: Yeah, very dramatically. And that’s the end of Sam Greenwalt and John. John got out of it and went south. John Jr. Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Shelby: John Jr. So there is no one left there except Jim Short, who was a salesman, as I was, and started the railroads and other things, transportation largely. And of course I sold them into, I thought it was good, you know consumer’s power they chose it. But I specialized in the railroad and I still have them. And they are the best investment on the market today because they don’t have any packaging (?) laws. Because they, they got oil. Santé Fe, Southern Pacific, and Union Pacific, all very prosperous I have 3 of them. Interviewer: Would you advise me to buy those today? Mr. Shelby: I certainly would. You couldn’t buy anything better. I just bought 10 more shares of Union Pacific. That’s about 70 years old of uninterrupted dividends. Interviewer: That’s pretty good. Mr. Shelby: Ha, can’t beat it. Interviewer: Who were some of the other tenants in that Michigan Trust building, when you worked there? �31 Mr. Shelby: Well there was that insurance office on the corner building. What was, who were they? Woman: Grenol Roll? Interviewer: Grenol Rol? Mr. Shelby: Huh? Who? Woman: Grenol Rowl? Mr. Shelby: Grenol Roll? Woman: Uh-huh. Mr. Shelby: I think they were. Well there were lawyers in there, quite a well Meryl Lynch was in there for awhile on the 6th floor. Until they moved over to that building next to the Prince Club, you know. It was full of lawyers and uh, let’s see, who else? Well there was the University Club, at the top. Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Shelby: Isn’t that the, Arthur Whitworth. That is the man who got me into the Lee Havenson Company. Arthur Whitworth. Interviewer: J. Arthur Whitworth. Mr. Shelby: Yeah. Interviewer: I remember I don’t remember him, but I remember the name Mr. Shelby: He wore a beard. Interviewer: Yes. Yes I think I do remember him. Mr. Shelby: That’s right; his son was made the vice president of the Michigan trust, very smart man. Well, no now it comes back clearly. I, Lewis Dewes was a small medium sized insurance company that Billy Baker got me connected with in Chicago. And I don’t know if… Interviewer: What was the name of that firm sir? Lewis… Mr. Shelby: Yeah… Interviewer: How do you spell it? Mr. Shelby: Lewis, Lewis. L-E-W-I-S. Interviewer: Yes. �32 Mr. Shelby: D-E-W-E-S, Lewis Dewes, they were an insurance business. And Billy Baker got me into going into that. I represented them for awhile in the insurance, selling insurance stock. And I had an office in the Michigan Trust on the 9th floor at the end of the building right next to the where Phil Fuller and other people were interested in the lumber business I and then I later on whatyama I just mentioned his name invited me in to leave. Interviewer: Whitworth Mr. Shelby: And I was with them until I was in South Bend stopping to see a friend there when I got the news in the elevator that Lee Havenson, that Koogerage had shot himself I mean. And then that came, and then after that it was a piece of chaos, gradually until the rest of them, they just simply knocked it all out. It was too big of a scandal worldwide you know. I think mother mother was in Europe at the time on some other trip. I’m not sure now. Interviewer: I called on your nephew Bud Kunuclip the other evening. Mr. Shelby: Oh yeah, Buddy. Interviewer: And he was, uh telling me that your father was had a nickname Dandy. Mr. Shelby: Yeah, that was just a pet name. Yeah. Woman: We all called him that. Mr. Shelby: He was just a marvelous man. My, wonderful father. There is a good picture of him. Interviewer: Yeah, I’ve seen, I saw the picture when I came in. Mr. Shelby: Yeah, he was a wonderful man. Interviewer: Were your parents quite active in society, or? Mr. Shelby: Yes, we… Interviewer: Or entertained the field? Mr. Shelby: We had a good many, we had a good many entertainments at Lafayette Avenue. And… Interviewer: What sorts of entertainments? Mr. Shelby: Well, uh reception was one kind of them, the connection with the art gallery, we we donated quite a number of things to the art gallery when my father died, which they have now. Some very handsome tables and things, mirrors. Interviewer: It was a big, big house. �33 Mr. Shelby: Oh yes, 12 foot high ceilings. Mrs. Young, Mrs. Sam Young bought those mirrors that were in the par, in the parlor. Those 12 foot mirrors, they came I think from New York, New York City, my Grandfather’s house in New York. Interviewer: Were these parties that your mother and father these receptions, were they very large affairs? Mr. Shelby: Yeah, yeah. Interviewer: How many people? Mr. Shelby: Oh 50,60, or 70. Interviewer: Mmhmm. And were they catered? Mr. Shelby: huh? Interviewer: Were they catered? Mr. Shelby: Yeah, they uh, what’s the name of the caterer? Woman: I remember, Jen Door? Interviewer: Dr. Jenoff? Mr. Shelby: Yeah, it had to be. Interviewer: Yeah. Mr. Shelby: Oh we had quite a lot of receptions. That was a big house. The library was 30 feet long and the dining room was 40. Interviewer: Ooh. Mr. Shelby: I mean the crossway. Interviewer: Yeah. Woman: I remember a couple…president. Mr. Shelby: 12 foot 12 foot ceilings that I love. Just think, I had to get rid of them and I got 6,000 dollars and they are asking 80,000 for it now. 80,000 is full like a rabbits worn it makes me sick… Interviewer: Who… �34 Mr. Shelby: …that a man would go buy it. Interviewer: ..were your neighbors on Lafayette Street? Mr. Shelby: The McNights. Interviewer: Yes, who? Mr. Shelby: Like Anna McNight. Interviewer: I remember her of course, but… Mr. Shelby: Well quite a number, what was the name of that big clergyman we had? Can’t think of it. His name was… Woman: Was it Campbell Fayer? Mr. Shelby: Huh? Woman: I’ve heard you speak of Campbell Fayer. Interviewer: Campbell Fayer? Mr. Shelby: No, he was he was back in the when I was a boy he gave me Baltimore. No, I…McKormick! Interviewer: Where did Mr. McKormick live? Mr. Shelby: He lived on Lafayette. Interviewer: I didn’t know that. Mr. Shelby: Yes, I think the church owned that building on South Lafayette. Interviewer: Oh, South Lafayette. Mr. Shelby: Quite a good size. Interviewer: Oh yes, I know I know where it is. Mr. Shelby: I think that is an Episcopal residence. Interviewer: Yeah, who who were some of the other people who lived on Lafayette, closer to you? Across the street for instance. Mr. Shelby: Next to us was the Gilberts. Interviewer: The Gilberts next door. �35 Mr. Shelby: The gas company. Beautiful home. Interviewer: And the Hazeltines? Mr. Shelby: The Hazeltines lived right on John street, right right through they’re joining our backyard. Interviewer: And you remember Dr. Hazeltine? Mr. Shelby: Oh, very well. Interviewer: Can you tell us a little bit about him? Mr. Shelby: He was a big old muffin top, I remember that. You know, size things you, he was a very closed mouth very severe type man. Dignified, you know. Stately, I’d say kind of a stately type. Interviewer: Was he tall? Mr. Shelby: No. Interviewer: He’s not tall… Mr. Shelby: Medium, we’ll say maybe 5 feet 9 or 10. Interviewer: Mmhmm. Mr. Shelby: No, he wasn’t a big man. He wasn’t big like my father. My father was, my father was 6 feet. No he wasn’t, he was medium height. Mrs. Hazeltine was a great beauty, very very lovely woman, beautiful too. He built that wall up that stone wall and then there was another house right at the foot where the elderly people Newman I think there name was. They lived there for years, a little wooden house. Interviewer: Would that be on Barkley? Mr. Shelby: Yeah, the foot of Barkley Street and John Street. Small,white house. Interviewer: You remember you spoke of Phil Fuller. Now he lived across… Mr. Shelby: Well, Phil Fuller lived across the street from us in a good size house on this way and the whole hold men came and galloped on the corner. Several families there, then the T.J. O’Brien house. Interviewer: Yeah, on the other side of the corner. �36 Mr. Shelby: Yeah on that side. Then the alley, and then the corner was John Lawrence, the lawyer. The house was still there with a bay window. I know of several people that have occupied that corner house on the, during the past 40 years. Woman: The family who was in the women’s city club they were doing so well? Mr. Shelby: Huh? Woman: The family? Mr. Shelby: No, the women’s city club belongs, who was that? Interviewer: Wasn’t it the Sweet family? Mr. Shelby: Yeah, yes. Woman: You would play in the attic with that peep hole? Mr. Shelby: Yeah, the peep hole. We used to play up in that. I did I used to play up there, you know build with building blocks and Mitchell was his nephew or grandson. He used to play up on that tower. Interviewer: Was his name Mitchell Sweet? Mr. Shelby: No, Mitchell was his grandson of the owner of it. Interviewer: Now, you must have known Thomas O’Brien well. Mr. Shelby: Oh, didn’t know anyone else better. He was the general counsel of the GR and I. Interviewer: Oh yeah. Mr. Shelby: Thomas C. O’Brien. And Catherine married a very old some old Englishman who lived inside the Orient for awhile. And Howard was and Howard and my brother Walter were great friends. Walter, Howard O’Brien and my brother Walter just my brother ahead of me, they were great friends. Interviewer: Didn’t Catherine marry… Mr. Shelby: Huh? Interviewer: Didn’t Catherine marry Sir Henry Kilton? I think that was his name. Mr. Shelby: Yeah, she married very well to a very prominent person. She was a lovely woman, Catherine. Interviewer: Can you tell me something about the Hope family. �37 Mr. Shelby: Well Hope wasn’t very popular with anybody. He was a very exclusive type of a person that thought a great deal of himself and I don’t recall him being particularly prominent or notable. He came from Kentucky, he was from Kentucky. He was a bit exclusive in his friendships and his manner of living and he was pretty well conceived by bushes over there. Otherwise I don’t think he was very well liked, he was kind of pompous and we thought he was not, well not worth all the agilation. Interviewer: But he was president of the country club for many years. Mr. Shelby: Yeah, yes. But he wasn’t a stockholder as we were. Interviewer: He wasn’t? Mr. Shelby: The O’Brien family and ourselves were the only stockholders. Interviewer: Oh really? Mr. Shelby: I didn’t get a penny for it, not a penny. And it was awfully extravagant and he drove it into debt, you know. Interviewer: What about Mrs. Hope? Was she…? Mr. Shelby: Mrs. Hope was very lovely but she had a lot of children and then Moosey was the name of one. I don’t know but they seemed to have a lot of 5 or 6 children there. But they lived by themselves and they weren’t friendly, not unfriendly, but they were just exclusive. They weren’t mixers. Interviewer: Well he was president for over 30 years at that club. You wonder how a man could be a president for so long. Mr. Shelby: Yeah I know. Well he had a good many dinners out there that I know. I don’t know I just have a feeling, just a little feeling I think between Mr. O’Brien and my father against Mr. Hope. What it was I don’t know. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: But socially why he was quite acceptable but exclusive. J.C. Hope. Interviewer: You mentioned the Earl family earlier. Mr. Shelby: The what? Interviewer: The Earl family. Mr. Shelby: Oh yeah. Interviewer: Tell me about the Earls. �38 Mr. Shelby: Well the, well I only got to know the Edward Earl who was and Fred was my brother Walter’s age. And Fred Earl had a big bob, about 30 feet long that we used to slide down hill on. And Mr. Earl was a quite type of man, a lawyer and they had proctor duty on their front porch in the summer time you could see them sitting there you know. Interviewer: That was Fountain and Lafayette? Mr. Shelby: Fountain and Lafayette yeah. Interviewer: Where the Davenport men’s dorm is? Mr. Shelby: Yeah Interviewer: Yeah I think it is now. Mr. Shelby: I I don’t know who is responsible for selling that. Interviewer: I don’t know either. Mr. Shelby: I said, I’m sorry that that residence is gone myself. Interviewer: It is a beautiful home. Mr. Shelby: Yeah, it’s spacious too you know. You know they had a stable in the rear of their lot. Interviewer: I called on Mrs. Knappen, Clara Knappen. Do you remember the Knappens? Mr. Shelby: Oh yes, they lived right in the middle of the block. A Crosby home I think. Interviewer: Yes, mmhmm. Mr. Shelby: Yes, Mrs. Knappen, very well. Interviewer: Her husband was an attorney I believe. Mr. Shelby: Huh? Interviewer: Her husband was an attorney. Mr. Shelby: Yes, that’s right. Oh yes, I remember them. Stuart Knappen, wasn’t it? Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Shelby: Jim Crosby lived in that too and Raymond he was a weird boy. He used to walk in a very mincey way. I can see him now, I think people made funny of him of sort of a feminine, because he would walk… �39 Interviewer: Don’t trip over there. (muffled laughter) Mr. Shelby: He wasn’t a real man you know; he was a Yale man too. Woman: Well you knew Ralph Bolton. Was that his name? He was a Yale man. Interviewer: Yeah we, what about Ralph Bolton? Did you know Ralph? Mr. Shelby: Well Ralph was the kind of a boy odd man that was trying to make him, make him refine him a bit. He was simply a good German, son of a German successful merchandiser. He was sent to Yale. He was kind of an odd man. I didn’t think he belonged to anything, any particular mark. He was just simply was sent there, that was all. He wouldn’t be the type that anybody would take up with, that he would be very chummy with, you know? He wasn’t attractive enough, I would say. He came in to see me quite a number of times just to do it. But I don’t know, he was just Ralph boy that was all. I don’t, I kind of amused the people that make so much of that house architecturally I don’t think there is anything outstanding in it. It’s just a very sizeable, a good size American architectural home you know. I don’t think it has any merits architecturally. I wouldn’t say that it has, but they made it into a museum now didn’t they? Interviewer: Yes, yes. Mr. Shelby: Yeah well, let them do it then if that gives them any pleasure. Women: I think it’s a good idea. Mr. Shelby: I don’t know how they characterize it, as a typical Eng-, American home. Well built, well designed, but I don’t know that it has any charm to it. I never felt like it had. I think the house that if you watchyamacallit, go around the corner, oh what’s his name? Interviewer: Edward Low? Mr. Shelby: Huh? Interviewer: Edward Low? Mr. Shelby: Not Edward. Some, it was right at the corner, at the very head of the street, it was the best looking house. Interviewer: Now which house was that? Mr. Shelby: Huh? Interviewer: Which house are we talking about? Mr. Shelby: Well on the corner of, is that College Avenue? �40 Woman: College and Washington? Mr. Shelby: Washington Street? Interviewer: Yes… Mr. Shelby: Yeah, right at the corner there. Is that, they had a fire there once. Their horses were burned up. Interviewer: Now which house? Is this the house that Henry Idema lived at later? Woman: Yeah. Mr. Shelby: Possibly. Interviewer: Yeah. Mr. Shelby: Yeah, I guess so. Interviewer: If you go up the street it’s on the right. Mr. Shelby: It did, yes. Interviewer: Yellow brick? Mr. Shelby: Yes. Interviewer: I see. Mr. Shelby: Right on the corner. Interviewer: That house I think was built by Edward, by Edward Low. Mr. Shelby: Yes, that’s right. Than who was at the top of the hill, the big tall house? Woman: The Waters? Mr. Shelby: Huh? Woman: The Water’s house? Mr. Shelby: No, not the Waters. Woman: The Thistle house? Mr. Shelby: Thistle was it? Yeah. Edward(?) Thistle? Interviewer: Yeah. �41 Woman: That was a pretty house. Mr. Shelby: Yeah. Interviewer: Well, what do you think? Is it, what do you think is going to become of us with the economy going the way it is? Mr. Shelby: You mean the present state of the United States? Interviewer: Do you think we will ever pull out of it? Mr. Shelby: God, I don’t like making any predictions. Huh, as the President said last night we are in mull of a hess didn’t he? Something to the effect of that? Interviewer: I would say so, yes. Mr. Shelby: Yeah, I don’t know where it all commends to, and I don’t know how we are going to stop it. We have ample occasions all over the globe for one thing. I think we should stop underwriting events and I think we ought to, bring us into, closer into ourselves and stop spreading around the world. As big as we are, as rich we are, and as successful as we are, we are not big enough for that task. I think we’ve over, over we’ve overreached the mark. With our associations and we have taken on too big of a load. Interviewer: Now that you have lived in Grand Rapids 96 years what, do you think you chose a good place to be born? Mr. Shelby: Was it a good place to be born? Interviewer: Do you think you chose a good place to be born? Mr. Shelby: Well a very comfortable place, but I wouldn’t, not too inspiring. It hasn’t any features that would give me any thrill. Not any geographical features, like San Francisco, or well even like Chicago on the lake front. It’s just a very comfortable pleasant little town that’s all. Very Dutchy, too Dutchy to suit me…don’t say that though. That, Interviewer: It’s alright. Mr. Shelby: They won’t like it. I uh… Interviewer: Well you must have known Arthur Vanderburg. Mr. Shelby: Huh? Interviewer: You must have known Arthur Vanderburg. Mr. Shelby: Oh yes. �42 Interviewer: He was Dutch. Mr. Shelby: Huh? Interviewer: Became very important. Mr. Shelby: He was, yes a little bit too much conceited I think. He was the top of a gang of men; probably tell them how to do the work. You know? That sort of thing. That was his, I think that was a characteristic of him, don’t you think, you know? He was, it was just an ordinary, it was well, I don’t know what streak of man that would be. If I saw a gang of men, uh 15 or 20 men doing a job on a hole, it wouldn’t be the last thing in the world that I would try and stop and tell them how to do to do the job better than they’re doing it. But that would be, he was a politician. He would draw attention to himself. I think that type of man, isn’t, is not very deep. He was too spectacular, and showy. Let me show you how to do that thing. That type, don’t you know? No don’t do it that way, is that the way to do it? He was that type of person. The ordinary conservative person wouldn’t just wouldn’t do that. He wouldn’t expose himself maybe to ridicule. They wouldn’t wouldn’t mix up with such a situation. They wouldn’t and that’s a perfectly natural thing. If there’s a gang of men that are cleaning up out of there, leave them alone. They are doing the job alright. There’s no reason why I should give them any directions how to do that. I’m not a politician I’m not after the attention. So I wouldn’t be the person to stop and tell them how to do the job. I wouldn’t, it would be the last thing in the world that I would do. I think he was, I think he was probably the type of man that wore external, that would keep themselves prominent and then the in what’s going on in the role play. But there were such demonstrations of his ability to direct others on how to do things. I don’t know how you would estimate him. Interviewer: Now you had a rather important political figure in your own family. Mr. Shelby: Yes. Interviewer: A long time ago, I believe it was your great-grandfather Cass’ brother. A Louis Cass? Mr. Shelby: Oh yes. Well I can’t tell you much about him except I know that he was, and must have been an extremely capable man, for his time. For the first place I think he had considerable ownership of land in Detroit. That I am not sure of, don’t you know. But he was a man that had outstanding qualities of his make up or he wouldn’t have reached the prominent stage that he did. Interviewer: Did your family ever talk about him, or your father or grandfather speak of him, or? Mr. Shelby: I don’t remember, recall any specific discussion about him. No, I don’t think so. Interviewer: I think he was the first territorial governor. Mr. Shelby: Huh? �43 Interviewer: He was the first territorial governor. Mr. Shelby: Well I think that they just accept him and know that he was capable and the proper man to be in that situation. He had the qualities of leadership. But I don’t recall that we indulged in any praise of him or anything of that nature, or did any boasting about our relationship. Woman: That he was an explorer, he liked exploring. Interviewer: Well he came to Grand Rapids when he was quite elderly; I was reading about him the other day. He came here in 1855 and there was a big turnout, a big crowd. And that reminds me, when we were sitting here before I turned on the equipment. Tell me, tell us again about the torchlight parade that used to figure in the political life. Mr. Shelby: Oh, well it was a very noisy spectacular demonstrations that paraded through the streets of the resident centrally the calling out of the candidates to their front porch to announce what they stood for. And to advocate that they elect elect them. There was the crowd that gradually approved of their presence and made a big fuss about them when they came out and addressed the crowd. Then they came out and addressed the crowd and they told them what a good Republican he was or what a good Democrat he was and how they ought to surely choose them don’t you know. Interviewer: Would this be a big crowd of people? Mr. Shelby: Oh yes, maybe 3 or 4 hundred. Yeah. Interviewer: And where did they stop? Who did they stop to see? Mr. Shelby: Oh they would stop as soon as they got out of breath. Interviewer: No I mean what houses did they stop at? Mr. Shelby: Oh, I remember them more particularly the Fountain Street. That Fuel was very prominent for years at that time. Interviewer: Mr.Martin, Mr. Edwin F. Fuel Mr. Shelby: Fuel, yeah. And from there they came to our house and then they went down to the congressman’s house. They would carry banners over their shoulders and torch lights. Interviewer: Do you think the Congressman’s name was Ford? Mr. Shelby: Ford, Ford, M. Ace. Ford. Ford, Ford, M. Ace. Ford. Yeah, that’s right. Woman: Was Ford a good politician? Mr. Shelby: Right down about where the Michinmckormicks? �44 Interviewer: I see right in there. Mr. Shelby: He was the congressman. Well they felt pretty keenly about it and they Doanlab Doanlab, Charles B. Doanlab. That was another one, I have forgotten what position he was after or what he was. But there was a big interest in politics then. The town was smaller, you know. They didn’t spread from Fairview to way up out 34th street it was very compact you know. Hall Street was our and you were out in the country, when you got to Hall Street. It was miles, it was miles away! That’s where the first circus came. You know, before they had their parade. And Sweet Street was I don’t remember there being more to Grand Rapids at that time. Then you were getting into toward North Park. That would be where the DMN Depot would’ve been don’t you know. Interviewer: Well we have covered quite a few topics, is there something you would like to add? Mr. Shelby: Well you mean as for the p- I think it I have resented the outlying shopping centers. Interviewer: You don’t like those. Mr. Shelby: I think they ruin Grand Rapids, from downtown. I, I don’t think downtown is the sand stool so cold is sunken just 2 blocks, just 2 or 3 blocks. It will never come back. And these other things are vast sums of money have been invested by realtors 8 or 10, 15 miles out and they what do they call those things? Woman: Plazas, the Plazas. Interviewer: The malls, and plazas Woman: Yeah. Mr. Shelby: Malls, you know, and well definitely they are robbing downtown. Interviewer: Oh yeah. Mr. Shelby: A tremendous purchasing power, besides the time and effort to get there. I think it’s, I just don’t like it to tell you the to be perfectly plain truth, I don’t like it. I’d rather have it like it was. Interviewer: Grand Rapids had good stores when you when you were younger? Mr. Shelby: Yes. And I still, we had the new dish light___ none of the ones we still got. Yes, we had a good tailor store, a good tailoring shop, yes. Interviewer: Did you buy ready made clothes or tailored clothes in those days? Mr. Shelby: Oh I did both, depending on my finances. �45 Interviewer: Who was your tailor when your finances were in good shape? Mr. Shelby: Oh, who was it? Why, he’s still there, in his name is still in that store… Woman: Lloyd? Interviewer: Lloyd? Mr. Shelby: Huh? Interviewer/Woman: Lloyd? Mr. Shelby: Who? Woman: Ll-Lloyd. Lloyd. Mr. Shelby: Yeah, Lloyd. Yeah, he was my tailor. Interviewer: Oh yes. Woman: …he never worried much about clothes in fact. Mr. Shelby: I know my father had clothing made by Berkley R. Merlan in New York City. He was. Interviewer: Berkely R. Merlan. Mr. Shelby: Yeah, he, he was, at that time 100 dollars was some money. And Father had thse 100 dollar suits built just for him. He had the money and the, a place to appear well groomed. So he had these Me- Merlan suits built for him. So this has happened to Grand Rapids, we’ve got 2 shopping centers Plainfield Avenue was a section and I think that they take too much time and effort, too much money away from the town. I don’t approve of them, so there you go. That’s just my own feelings. Interviewer: Ok. Alright. Woman: He misses the train too, and a closer train station. Mr. Shelby: What? I don’t think there is any very attractive, I think its lonesome and unattractive place that they have artificially set up those costly places, and they keep telling you to go out and get something that you can’t get downtown. Interviewer: You got any plans for the future? Mr. Shelby: Hmm? Interviewer: Do you have any plans for the future? �46 Mr. Shelby: No, I don’t know how I could have much future, to the point of years. This time, my plans are to enjoy continuance of the things that I’m fond of: travel, and good books, and enjoyable people. Interviewer: And your I suppose. Mr. Shelby: My what? Interviewer: Your work, right? Mr. Shelby: Well, yes. I am invested in financial work and I like it. I think I know something about it and I think I know a doable way and what to take. But I don’t I am not aggressive enough to purge purge a program on you. Interviewer: Well I think we’ll end…right now. Mr. Shelby: I think that I I was if I have a sufficient contact and experiences with the leading railways, the leading banks, the leading institutions to be able to recommend investments that are safe and sound and of quality and of a high grade. Stick to that and leave the rest alone. I know nothing about speculative wealth, speculation, I’m not a type that would to take any chances, I’m too cautious. I am too much grounded in safety. Interviewer: Well I want to thank you Mr. Shelby for…. Mr. Shelby: I don’t know if I could tell anybody what to do, how they could change, alter or change their lives I think that it depends entirely by their means, the situation, what they are after. What their interested in is what they should do. I’m interested in quite a lot of things, that probably others would not be interested in. That would be in good books, and good companionship, and good quality of life. Of the finer things of life I enjoy, if I had any advice for anybody else. Interviewer: Ok, well we’ll we’ll stop at this point. INDEX B Baker, Billy · 29, 32 Berguin, Mr. · 5 Bolton, Ralph · 40 Central Grammar School · 3 Coit, Dr. Henry · 8 D Dewes, Lewis · 32 Doanlab, Charles B. · 45 C Cass, George W. (Grandfather) · 1, 6, 7, 14, 15 Cass, Louis · 43 �47 E O Earl, Edward · 11, 39 O’Brien Family · 36, 37, 38 F R Ford, Gerald R. (President) · 45 Fountain Street School · 3 Fox, Charles · 5 Fuller, Phil · 32, 36 Reed’s Lake · 12, 13 Reedley, California · 26 Romence, Maude · 30 Rosenthal Family · 6 G S Gage and Benedick’s Dancing School · 11 Gilbert Family · 35 Gold, Al · 22 Greenwalt, Sam · 30, 31 Saint’s Rest Club · 5 Shelby, Bill (Son) · 27, 28 Shelby, Mary Kennedy Cass (Mother) · 1, 6, 17, 18, 20, 21, 28, 33, 34 Shelby, Violet (Sister) · 20 Shelby, William Read (Father) · 1, 3, 4, 6, 10, 11, 14, 15, 17, 18, 19, 21, 22, 23, 28, 33, 34, 36, 38, 44, 46 Short, Jim · 31 St. Paul’s School · 7, 16, 19 Sweet Family · 37, 45 H Havenson, Lee · 29, 32, 33 Hazeltine Family · 36 Hope Family · 37, 38 K V Vanderburg · 43 Knappen Family · 39 Kreuger, Iber · 29 M Major Watson (boat) · 14 McKormick, Mr. · 35 Mcmhoffan, John · 29, 30 McNight, Anna · 35 Michigan Iron Works · 15 Miss Reed’s Kindergarten · 2 Mount Chomininee · 27 W Westpoint · 15 Whalen, Henry D. · 6, 14, 15 Whittaker, Harry · 18, 20 Whitworth, Arthur · 32 Widdicombe Family · 3 Y Yale University · 8, 9, 16, 18, 40 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e0bab304adc7229ca740bfa5fa377400.mp3 6f417cde375feb3deb9b3cd819c74b66 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_46Shelby Title A name given to the resource Shelby, George (2 of 2) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shelby, George Description An account of the resource George Cass Shelby was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on December 5, 1878. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1975 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/449c9cb62ea1d65ab952ae6203820037.pdf aa1e6caf9fb4989866090f10ded2bdf3 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mr. John Widdicombe Interviewed on January 5, 1975 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #45 (40:42) Biographical Information John S. Widdicombe was born about 1907 in Grand Rapids. His death occurred in Keene, New Hampshire in late May 1989. A memorial service was held in Grand Rapids on 1 June 1989. John was the son of Harry Theodore Widdicombe and Gertrude Emily Sherwood. Harry was born 3 August 1876 in Grand Rapids and died 29 March 1957 at Blodgett Hospital. He was the son of John Widdicombe and Mary Frances Stocking. Harry married Gertrude Emily Sherwood on 14 March 1906 in Grand Rapids. Gertrude was born about 1882 and was the daughter of Alfred Harry Sherwood and Emily A. Jeffries (or Jeffrey). Gertrude passed away 20 May 1975 in Grand Rapids. Both Gertrude and John S. Widdicombe are buried at Oak Hill Cemetery. ____________ Interviewer: This is a recording of an interview with Mr. John Widdicombe, who is visiting his native city from New York where he presently lives part of the year. This is recorded at my home, the Hutchins residence at one-eleven Lafayette north-east, in the afternoon of Sunday, January the fifth, nineteen seventy-five. Now I’m going to ask Mr. Widdicombe to talk about his family, which has played an important part in the history of this city, for I believe well over a hundred years. John: Well my great-grandfather George with three sons, his brother, and his brother’s wife and they came, it was about eighteen forty-four, and they settled first in Syracuse, New York. And just why one brother came to Grand Rapids and the other stayed in Syracuse, I don’t know. After they had settled in Syracuse my grandfather, the youngest of the four sons was born there. The other three were born in England. William, the eldest, Harry, George (I’m not sure if that’s the right order of Harry and George) and John. All four boys served in the Civil War, and George died shortly after, of some, not a wound, but some disablement that he suffered during the war. My great-grandfather, the original George was a cabinet-maker from Exeter in England. Almost as soon as they got here they began to work in furniture and there were many permutations, George Widdicombe, and Son, and Widdicombe Brothers, and Widdicombe and Richard, the Grand Rapids Mantel Company, this is over the course of many years. And finally they started the Widdicombe Furniture Company that died recently. The elder brother, William was �2 apparently rather bossy and my grandfather the youngest got tired of the relationship; sold his stock in the Widdicombe Furniture Company and started the John Widdicombe Company. Interviewer: About what year was that? John: I’m not sure, I can find out. I supposed it must have been in the eighties somewhere in the eighties. And of course in nineteen twelve, I think it was eleven or twelve he dropped dead over his desk, and at that time was starting work, starting to build what would have been if he finished it, the largest furniture company in the world. But of course when he died all the plans went by the board. William Widdicombe married Esther Hewitt, and Harry Widdicombe married a sister who was known as Auntie Rye, what her real name was I don’t know. And William had six children, only one of whom had any offspring, Abbott, who married Leona Wurzburg. And they had four children, two girls and two boys. He died of pneumonia, when Abbott his son, the youngest son was unborn. Harry Widdicombe, not my father, but his uncle after whom he was named, married Auntie Rye Hewitt and his son was Ralph the furniture designer. My grandfather married Mary Stocking and her father was Billius Stocking, who was one of the real pioneers. He came here I think in eighteen thirty-four or five and took a quarter, took up a homestead I think you call it on the West side, a quarter section. And built his, originally I think it was a log cabin. And later of course the New England clapboard house that was still there when I was a boy. Stocking had at least three children, Theodore who died in his twenties, and was quite an artist, or somewhat of an artist, and another daughter Alida who was a spinster, and who died at an advanced age I can’t remember how old she was, never having married. And she of course, lived on the West side and she must have had two acres. She had her own house, she had a tenant farmer house, and she had a corn field and potato patch and a cow and so on, and in the twenties the early twenties the city wanted this ideal property for a whole school complex and they got it by condemning the property, it was several years of fight to keep it but in the end they lost. Interviewer: Do you know anything about Billius Stocking apart from your relationship to him or what did he do? John: He was extremely pious that I do know. Terribly pious, he was, my grandfather had four children, one who died as they did in those day died young, I don’t know what name it had, Mary, Alida, and Harry my father, Harry Theodore. Named for his uncle, the Theodore Stocking that died young. . And Mary Widdicombe went to Paris in the nineties where she ran a pensione (hotel) along with Mrs. Thayer, who she’d known as her teacher of French in school somewhere, she went where a lots of Grand Rapids people went, where Mrs. Douglas went. �3 Interviewer: When she went over to Paris in the nineties how old would she have been? John: In her early twenties. Interviewer: In her early twenties? What about eighteen seventy perhaps? John: Something, not before that, it must have been before that because she was at least mother’s age. Interviewer: When was your father born, what year? John: Eighteen seventy-five I think. Interviewer: He was the youngest? John: He was the youngest. Interviewer: She was born perhaps… John: Eighteen eighty. So it must have been before that, it must have before it must have been in the eighties or nineties maybe she was a bit older than I said. Anyhow they went to Paris to perfect their French, and had the idea of starting a pensione for Americans, immediately, Americans from Grand Rapids well they were their first guest. And eventually lots of other people, and she married a Mr. Lee, Mr. James Lee and they were divorced and she went to London and bought the Dysart Hotel which covers a whole block, if it’s still there. And in a course of her years in London one of the people who lived in there was Geraldine Farrar, when she was in London she always stayed at the Dysart. And in those days she married John Joass, and I found something interesting, I’ve seen the name Joass once, another time in Scotland and I know that J-O-A-S is a Norwegian name. Interviewer: So there’s a possibility that… John: They came across, they were originally Norwegians. He didn’t like his wife running a hotel so she had to give up the Dysart and she lived in England until they separated, not divorced, and she came back here to live and died in nineteen forty-two. Alida married someone called Crane, I’ve forgotten his first name, and that was a very short lived marriage, and subsequently married Douglas Ray. And my father married Gertrude Sherwood, whose father has invented that process of translating fine grain mahogany on pine. And his company was the Grand Rapids Panel Company. My parents had two children, myself the eldest, and my sister �4 Emily, who married David Schmidt. I found an interesting thing; do you remember the Jacksons, here who was Jackson at St. Marks? Interviewer: St. Marks. I never knew them but yes I remember them. John: There was Nancy Jackson, that was a member of that family, I think Nancy’s younger sister who is wife of the rector of Grace Church in New York and she’d been looking through the files and said I found a Widdicombe who is married in Grace Church, and I discovered that was when she married Crane, it was Alida. Interviewer: Why don’t we go back to your grandfather, John Widdicombe, and tell me a little bit about what you were saying about the house, which stood in, on the site of the present John Widdicombe Furniture Company. John: No, not on the site but in the El and open space that is still open. Interviewer: What time do you suppose that house was built? John: I don’t know. It must have been there, I think it was certainly there in the eighties, and I suppose perhaps he lived there, because of course, the Widdicombe Furniture Company was across the tracks. And he chose that spot to build his own factory. So that when the guess that he was perhaps already living there. Then as he prospered he came across the river as everybody did finally, who lived on the West side, and bought what had been the Wood house, which is the second house from College on the north side of Fulton Street, going west. I think that would have been after eighteen ninety-three, and this was the time when father and his sisters, my aunt were growing up, I mean getting to their teens and so on. Because they entertained a good deal of their friends; I’ve heard people speak of remembering them at that house. Then he suffered in financial reverse in the panic of nineteen seven, and one of the things he did was sell the house to Mr. Hodenpyl, and they moved back to the little house beside the factory. And when grandfather was prosperous again, Mr. Hodenpyl very nicely, offered to sell it back to him for exactly what he paid for it, but my grandfather apparently said I don’t need it anymore because my children are all gone, they’re all married and there was no need to have a big house, it was just he and his wife, my grandmother. So they continued for the next few years because in nineteen-twelve he dropped dead. And then grandmother moved on, over on this side, I think she, well that house going up College north on College, the first house on the left. Interviewer: Yes, beyond the Sherman house, what we call the Sherman house. �5 John: Well it’s not beyond the Sherman house, because the Sherman house is on Fulton street, and it’s an empty lot, then it’s the first house that way. Interviewer: It’s the Victorian house. John: Yes, it was turned into half, split up into two house, two halves, and grandmother lived in first there. Interviewer: Didn’t Mrs. Ray live there, your aunt? John: No, she lived in the middle of the block, the house that her father built for her, bought the lot and built it for her in the middle of the block, that again a New England clapboard, a little house I don’t know how to describe it, it’s fifty-three North College. All that pops into my mind from these many many years ago; it’s been a long time since I’ve addressed a letter to fifty-three North College, but that’s where it was. And she lived there with Douglas Ray, it was a wedding present. And eventually grandmother went to live with Alida, in that house and live there until she died. It must have been in the late twenties or early thirties. My mother’s family lived on the West side, on Turner Street. Again when they prospered they moved over to this side and grandfather [Alfred H. Sherwood] bought the house on the big white rather handsome house, where Eberhard’s grocery is on the corner of State Street and Madison, across from the Stuyvesant. Interviewer: I think it’s no longer Eberhard’s. John: Well it a big thing, and it was next door to Dr. Smith. Interviewer: Richard Smith? John: Richard Smith, Dick Smith yes, and of course across the street lived the Wonderlys, that one where the Stuyvesant lived or was it the next to it. Interviewer: I think it was the one next to it. John: It was the Blodgett house. Interviewer: The Blodgett house was on the corner and the next one was the Wonderly house. John: The Wonderly house right. This isn’t much for your record; that was where I was born, where the grocery store is now. I was born in that house. �6 Interviewer: In that house? That was your… John: That was my mother’s mother and father you see and apparently she came home to have the baby or… Interviewer: It was your grandfather and grandmother Sherwood? John: Yes. That’s where I was born. I think Emily was born in a hospital, I think. Interviewer: Tell us a little bit about your grandfather Sherwood, if you will John. John: He was Alfred Harry Sherwood, and his, I long thought he was born in Canada of a Canadian family. I now know that his father was born in Canada, my great-grandfather whom I never knew who came to Michigan and settled somewhere near Grand Rapids, not in Grand Rapids, that’s something I must ask mother where it was. And he sent his son back to Peterborough to go to college. And there he met my grandmother, Emily Jefferies, who had come from England with her sister; her father being a merchant seaman, out of Southampton. A merchant seaman is a man who owns his ship and sails it. They went to Australia for grain or whatever. And my grandfather Sherwood came back to Grand Rapids to teach school. But he was a budding inventor; he invented several things, one or two things he gave away to others. I think one of the funny things he invented was embalming fluid. I don’t know how he happened to get on that, but he gave it to a friend who had started a funeral home or something. Anyhow, grandfather invented, he started the Grand Rapids Panel Company, which provided the machinery and the technique for applying fine grain taken off beautiful pieces of mahogany or whatever they wanted, on to cheap wood, pine and so on. And eventually that was adapted to put graining on metal dashboards in automobiles when that was fashionable to have metal dashboards that looked like wood. He was very successful, he had one of the first automobiles in Grand Rapids and they had a boat on the lake, well they had a cottage at, they didn’t build it they bought a cottage from a man from Chicago at Macatawa Park, that my uncle said was designed by a man from Chicago called Wright. Now my uncle knew nothing about architecture, so he couldn’t have, he didn’t even know of whom he was talking, just a man called Wright from Chicago. Well you can look at it, pictures of it and see it looks as though it might have been one of Wright’s first ventures. Interviewer: Is the house still standing? �7 John: It still stands, the bungalow at Macatawa Park on the grove walk up there is very handsome. Interviewer: It is considered a Frank Lloyd Wright? John: I have talked to people who are authority on Wright and they won’t pick it because that’s all I can do is just say an uncle of mine who knew nothing of architecture produced the name Wright. You know he could have any, he just remembers that when his father bought the cottage it was said to have been by a man called Wright, from Chicago. He died in nineteen eleven, of cancer, when he was quite a young man, he was in his fifties. Interviewer: This was your grandfather Sherwood? John: Sherwood, grandfather Sherwood. Interviewer: Then your uncle carried on the business. John: And uncle Wallace, my mother’s brother carried on the business, but didn’t have his father’s capacity so it wasn’t terribly successful, and eventually went out of existence. The same sort of thing happened to my father when my grandfather died, dropped dead of a heart attack. Father was a lumberman up in the north. He has several lumber camps, and obviously his father must have given him the money to buy the timberland, but anyhow he was running these logging camps, walking around on snow shoes in winter and loving it. And he was up there when his father dropped dead. Interviewer: camps? Excuse me but what about you know, the approximate location of these lumber John: It was partly in the northern peninsula, the eastern end of the northern peninsula, but it was also, it must have been up in the area north east of Petoskey, in the northern end of the southern peninsula. Because he was there, in a logging camp when this happened and his best friend at the time was George Shelby. And Mr. [William] Shelby was president of the railroad. So they fixed up a caboose and a locomotive, and sent it with George Shelby on it from Grand Rapids up to Petoskey or where ever it was, and off on this logging road into the woods to get my father. Interviewer: Don’t you mean Mr. William Shelby, was president of the railroad? John: Yes, I said his father. �8 Interviewer: Yes I see he was… John: George’s father. And it was rather funny, there wasn’t any telegraph no way of getting news to my father that his father had dropped dead. Well everyone persuaded him to give up the lumber business, and to become head of the John Widdicombe Company, as the only son. But he again didn’t have all his father’s talents, and you know one has to keep adding ideas to a company to make it remain successful. I think my father had the idea that whatever his father had done was best, so it just went on being the same. And then the furniture business sagged in the twenties as you know, and the John Widdicombe Company faltered. And due to family feeling, father was removed from the presidency and went back to the lumber business. And various people took over, but the company must have had the will to live because it is still going. Interviewer: That’s right. I just wanted to say I think it would be interesting if you talked about your early recollections as a child and some of your childhood experiences, for your early educational experiences, things of that sort. John: I went to Miss Eastman’s school, it was a Kindergarten first, that’s the first school I remember. And then I was tutored for… Interviewer: Where was Miss Eastman’s school? John: Somewhere, I think it was one, what is that street that comes out by Rason and Dows? Interviewer: Jefferson? John: No, it doesn’t go through Jefferson, goes into Rason and Dows, it’s the street next to it. Interviewer: Oh, LaGrave? John: No, that’s down. Up the hill. Runs from the church that is next to the Masonic Temple. Interviewer: That’s Lafayette. John: No, that’s above Masonic Temple Interviewer: I’ve run out of streets. �9 John: Anyway, it was down there. And then I was tutored by Mrs. Field, so you want me to repeat the business about Jack Covode? She had four [students]; she divided her day, and nine to eleven, eleven to one, two to four and four to six. Interviewer: And where did she live John? John: She lived on Portsmouth Terrace. And she had a sister called Mrs. Herrick, who also did some tutoring, but was not nearly as good as Mrs. Field. Mrs. Field was really remarkable, ask Alexia Byrne, we owe her tremendous. She was marvelous about English. Well anyway, Jack Covode, Alexia Byrne, myself and Wilder Stevens at one point were the four that took those four hours, from four to six, five days a week. Then I went, my aunt Mary Joass, who came to this country at least once a year, if not twice to see her mother and her relatives and her friends. And one time in nineteen twenty-one, she suggested that I go back with her to England, because she was not only my aunt, but my godmother, and go to school, which I did for a year, almost two years. And then for various reasons I came back here and went to Central High School. From there when I graduated I went to the University of Virginia. When I finished there I went to New York and taught for two and a half years in Grace Church Choir School which was a resident school for boys who sang in the choir. They got it free for singing. And then I, that, the Depression was on and the church began to feel the pinch, and they turned the boarding school into a day school and cut the salaries in half. At that point my aunt Mary was coming through New York and said would you like to go to Oxford and I said that would be fine. So she gave me the wherewithal to take another degree at Oxford. From there I came back. Well, in London I worked on a newspaper for a while, the Sunday Referee, a sort of semi-scandal newspaper, as you know the English love those Sunday News of the World, the Sunday Referee. And then I met, had already known Lily Morris who was the wife of Ira Morris one of the minor meatpackers of Chicago and she had, she was a very extraordinary woman, when he was in Vienna not as Ambassador but in the Embassy, she got terribly interested in Maria Theresa. And she studied for two years in Vienna and she went as an undergraduate to Oxford in her sixties and finally finished this flight on Maria Theresa. And she was in the middle of shaping it up, you know editing and indexing and so on, and I came back to America to work with her and finish this book. But she was one of these women who needed only about four hours of sleep, and had a metabolism that left you gasping. So I, when the book was finished she wanted me to go on and do other things for her, but I said no I just couldn’t, it was just too taxing. She wanted to stay out all night and start work at eight o’clock in the morning and I just couldn’t manage it. �10 So I went to Virginia and by an accident, an accidental meeting a coincidence (which I won’t bother to go into) I got a job on the Virginia Writers Project at the WPA, as assistant state supervisor and spend five years writing a big Guidebook to Virginia and lots of other books, the book on Charlottesville on the University of Virginia which I did almost entirely. And a picture book on Virginia, which I did entirely. And from there I went into the war and went to Europe with the One Hundred Fourth Division, as a staff sergeant and a combat infantry division. And when the war was over, I for some months, I was idle not knowing what I wanted to do, and eventually got into U.N.R.R.A [United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration] and went to Poland as a special assistant to the chief of the under mission, a Canadian,”Bud” [Charles Alfred] Drury, a very nice guy, and had a absolutely fascinating time. And when that came to an end in June nineteen forty-seven, the still great unfinished business was the refugees, still in camps in Germany which we were responsible for. And we had handled the Polish; more than half of the refugees were Polish. And we handled the operation at the Polish end, and we had not authority but we had to deal with the trains that came in, which were not Polish We had many, many problems. And the man who had been in charge of that had to leave and go to England, and I had been his substitute, so that when U.N.R.R.A. came to an end, I was handling the refugee problems. And there were still nearly a million refugees in camps, so it was suggested that we open an office in Warsaw, much opposed by the Russians, because they didn’t want U.N.R.R.A. to come in, IRO the refugee organization to come into existence. But it did and the Poles accepted me as the chief of the mission to Warsaw refugee organization. I spent four years, three years more in Poland handling all that. Interviewer: Why don’t you talk a little bit about some of your friend that you got to know when you were in high school? You just mentioned to me that you lived in what is now known as the Morris manor, the house that is on the corner of Morris and Cherry Street, which was your father’s home at the time. John: Well I had known before I went to school in England, while I was being tutored during that period, I had known rather few. Should I name those few? Interviewer: Yes. John: Wilder Stevens, Lewis Reynolds, Ruth Denison, Cornelia Rood, well then when I came back from England and went to Central High School, I came to know people whom I, well came to know better as friends, people that I vaguely knew before because most of them, their parents were friends of my parents. Ed Dean, Jack Steketee, Sam and Bob Correll, Bob Oatman, Dew [DuBarry] Campau who’s Mrs. Serell Hillman now, Emily Wurzburg, …oh that nice girl who died… �11 Interviewer: ____________ John: No she was a bit too young. They lived across from Cornelia Rood. Oh dear, Kitty, her mother was Kitty. She was Kitty Seymour related to Mrs. Palmer, who was a Seymour. You know the Palmers? Interviewer: Yes I know who they are. John: Lanard, Mary Larnard, and the first Mrs., oh my memory is so bad, the man in the brokerage house down here, used to be in the Michigan Trust building. Bonnie Newcombe, who married who was a great big chap who was a broker, his sons went into it too. Cy[Cyrus] Newcombe, no Cy Newcombe was her brother, well never mind. And Barbara Vandenberg, and Catherine Handley, oh and Mary McClave and later I knew Bud quite well, but of course he in those years two or three years makes a lot of difference, and Mary was a bit younger than I and Bud was three or four or five years younger. Interviewer: Who were your parent’s closest friends during this period? John: My mother’s closest friend was Agnes Caufield, and Louise Long, and Emma Homiller and the usually the Duffys, another great friend of my mothers who died was Mrs. Shephard. Perhaps you never heard of Ned Shephard? Interviewer: Oh yes, I have. John: And Mrs. Ned Shephard and I can’t remember what her name was, she was a great friend of my mother’s but she died of pneumonia. And the other one was Lorraine McClave, not Lorraine McClave, Lorraine Bissell, who was Irving’s first wife. And the Pantlinds, Catherine’s mother and father, what was his… Fred, Fred and… Mr. and Mrs. Fred Pantlind. And the other Bissells, Olive Bissell, Mrs. M.R. Bissell, and oh dear it’s so far and so long ago. Interviewer: Of course she must have known Anna McKnight. John: Oh yes yes, all the Caufields. Anna McKnight, Marie who never married, Agnes who never married, Mrs. Hart, there were five of them, oh yes Chisolm’s mother. Interviewer: Mrs. Lichtenberger? John: Mrs. Lichtenberger and of course John [Caulfield] who … now we don’t need to go into the Peck business… John who married Clara Peck and they moved out to California. �12 Interviewer: When the depression came along I believe that your mother… John: Well my father having left the furniture business and gone into lumbering again was not nearly as prosperous as he had been and eventually my mother made an arrangement with a shop in Chicago, Blooms Bow a very nice arrangement because she had a shop in her own house, got a ten percent commission on everything she sold, and since she knew everybody in Grand Rapids and had great taste in clothing, she was very successful. And that went on for about fifteen years. Interviewer: That was the house on Fulton? John: No, a very wonderful scheme, she was first in strangely enough that house around the corner where I said my grandmother first lived, that Victorian house on College. And then she was walking down the street one day and ran into Camilla Shanahan, whose mother was very ill or had just died and she said, “we’re going to sell the house”, the Shanahan house, which was built by a Howard. Mrs. O’Brian’s brother, no I believe it was built by Mrs. O’Brian’s father. Interviewer: It could be yes. John: Either brother or father, I don’t know which generation. And then the Shanahans had bought it when they came with the Bissell Carpet Sweeper Company. And mother asked her how much they wanted, and she said, “well the real estate people were asking ten thousand.” Well mother immediately got on the telephone, she is quite clever sometimes, with Mr. Bloom in Chicago, and said, “what would you think of applying the same (cause he paid her rent) amount to amortizing a mortgage?” and he said, “fine, go ahead.” So, she bought it straight from Camilla and Florence, with no commission, so it was nine thousand five hundred dollars. And all that was paid, of course at the time, by Mr. Bloom. And when mother left it nine years ago, she sold it for forty thousand. Interviewer: It was a big house, the beautiful house. John: It was a lovely house, but the rooms were so arranged that it would have been very hard to turn it into apartments. They were big square rooms, well there’s no point in going into that here, and the plumbing was lead, it would have to be all redone, and the wiring would probably have to be all done, so mother sold it to that Institute. Interviewer: Davenport? John: Davenport. Well that’s about all I can do on that. �13 Interviewer: John I’ve noticed that you spell your name w-i-d-d-i-c-o-m-b-e, as your father did. Now the other Widdicombes have omitted the final e, what is the reason for that? John: I can tell you, I used to think that my great-grandfather had dropped the e, but mother tells me that William Widdicombe, who was the eldest son, dropped the e and persuaded his brothers to do so, and so the companies got started without the e. But it was dropped, and I know it was dropped now because I possess some letters written by the brother who stayed in Syracuse, rather the wife of the brother who stayed in Syracuse to her sister-in-law my greatgrandmother here worrying about her four nephews who were in the Civil War. So there’s quite a spate of letters. And she always signed them herself with an e. Interviewer: Well that explains that. John: But of course you can’t change the company. When the family had become more prosperous and were traveling to Europe, when they got to England they discovered that it always had the e. And so they put it back. And I have looked, I looked recently in my birth certificate and it’s spelled with an e. Interviewer: I see. John: So it was accepted with an e by that time and I was baptized that way, or rather, you know, registered. Interviewer: Tell us about your families religious affiliations over the years. John: Well I think that I, I think the Stockings were very pious and I think they were Presbyterian, but I can’t be sure. And if so that was the church I was baptized in. But my immediate family, father and mother were never particularly religious. My sister and I never went to Sunday school, a very Christian family if you like, a high sense of Christian ethic but my aunts were Episcopalians, and particularly Aunt Alida Ray went every Sunday to St. Mark’s. But I think that long ago the way we were brought up, my sister and I were rather disapproved of, because there wasn’t this emphasis on church-going. I think probably on the part of both my father and my mother a revulsion against Stocking’s piety, you see what I mean? Interviewer: Yes I understand. John: I don’t belong to any church. When I go to a church it’s for architectural reasons mainly. Interviewer: Now let’s talk a little bit about the Sherwood family who were related to you, they’re your first cousins, your generation which is still around in Grand Rapids. �14 John: Yes, all but one. My mother had a little sister who again as happened in those days, died young. But the other two grew up were my mother, and her brother Wallace, William Wallace Sherwood, who married Virginia Vevia. They had four children, Mary, Ann, Wallace, and David. Mary married, (of this is going to be hard for you) she was married three times, and consequently is no longer a Catholic, some boy who was the one from Holland? Interviewer: I can’t remember. John: Well anyway now she is married to Grindell McKee. Ann married Carl Schmidt, who was a brother of my sister’s husband David Schmidt, so those two are sisters-in-law and first cousins. Wallace married someone whose last name I don’t remember, and they have three children, Catherine, Virginia, and William (I think it is the other way around, Catherine, William and Virginia). Catherine just married Douglas Cramer, just a few months ago. David, the fourth child, never married and has lived for many years in California. Interviewer: Now why don’t you tell us about your nephew, your sister’s son? John: Oh yes, my sister has one son, William Widdicombe Sherwood Schmidt, which is rather a mouthful, who is about twenty-seven now, lives in Ann Arbor, went to the University of Michigan, and is now what do you call that, not a teaching assistant, he’s doing some teaching there while he’s finishing his work on a degree. And he married, I just said give my love to… to… it’s my age of course. Interviewer: Is it pertinent? John: No. Interviewer: He’s married you know that. John: He’s married and has no children. Interviewer: I was interested to note he is a member of Kent County Council for Historic Preservation and which saved the Voigt House which we toured together earlier this afternoon. John: This is I think though, he never mentioned it to me, but you’ve told me and one or two other things make me think he has quite an interest in old Grand Rapids and genealogical and family past history and so on. But he’s never mentioned it to me. But there are certain things that make me think he’s, privately from me, he does have these feelings. I think that’s about all, unless you can think of something else. �15 Interviewer: No, I just want to thank you very much. It’s been a delightful hour or so chatting with you. I hope you’ll be back in the not too distant future and by that time we can remember some things, you can remember some things you forgot to mention and we’ll have another session perhaps not quite so lengthy and put those thoughts and memories on tape. John: Well thank you very much. This is a new experience for me and as I’ve said it’s extraordinary to hear you played back when you’re not used to it. Interviewer: John. That never sounds like you, especially the first two or three times. Well thank you INDEX A D Auntie Rye (Eunice M. Hewitt) · 2 Davenport Institute · 14 Dean, Ed · 11 Denison, Ruth · 11 Douglas, Mrs. · 3 Drury, Charles Alfred "Bud" · 11 Dysart Hotel · 3, 4 B Bissell Carpet Sweeper Company · 13 Bissell, Lorraine · 12 Bissell, Mrs. M.R. · 12 Bissell, Olive · 12 Blodgett house · 6 Bloom, Mr. · 13 Blooms Bow · 13 Byrne, Alexia · 9 C Campau, Dew [DuBarry] · 11 Caufield family · 12 Caufield, Agnes · 12 Caulfield, Agnes · 12 Caulfield, John · 13 Caulfield, Marie · 12 Central High School · 10, 11 Correll, Sam and Bob · 11 Covode, Jack · 9 Cramer, Douglas · 15 F Field, Mrs. · 9 Field, Mrs. · 9 G George Widdicombe and Son Company · 1 Grace Church · 4 Grace Church Choir School · 10 Grand Rapids Mantel Company · 2 Grand Rapids Panel Company · 4, 7 Great Depression · 10 H Handley, Catherine · 12 Hart, Mrs. Esther (Caulfield) · 13 Herrick, Mrs. · 9 Hewitt, Esther · 2 �16 Hillman, Mrs. Serell · 11 Hodenpyl, Mr. · 5 Homiller, Emma · 12 Oxford University · 10 J Pantlind, Mr. and Mrs. Fred · 12 Peck, Clara · 13 Petoskey · 8 Jackson, Nancy · 4 Jefferies, Emily · 7 Joass, John · 4 Joass, Mary · 10 John Widdicombe Company · 2, 8 John Widdicombe Furniture Company · 4 P R Kent County Council for Historic Preservation · 16 Rason and Dows · 9 Ray, Alida (Widdicombe) · 15 Ray, Douglas · 4, 5 Ray, Mrs. Alida · 5 Reynolds, Lewis · 11 Rood, Cornelia · 11, 12 L S Larnard, Mary · 12 Lee, Mr. James · 3 Long, Louise · 12 Schmidt, Carl · 15 Schmidt, Catherine · 15 Schmidt, David · 15 Schmidt, Virginia · 15 Schmidt, William · 15 Schmidt, William Widdicombe Sherwood · 15 Seymour, Kitty · 12 Shanahan, Camilla · 13 Shanahan, Florence · 13 Shanahan family · 13 Shelby, George · 8 Shelby, Mr. William · 8 Shephard, Mrs. Ned · 12 Shephard, Ned · 12 Sherman house · 5 Sherwood family · 15 Sherwood, Alfred H. · 6, 7 Sherwood, Ann · 15 Sherwood, David · 15 Sherwood, Gertrude · 4 Sherwood, Mary · 15 Sherwood, Wallace · 8, 15 Sherwood, William Wallace · 15 Smith, Dr. Richard · 6 St. Mark’s Episcopal Church · 15 St. Mark's Episcopal Church · 4 Steketee, Jack · 11 Stevens, Wilder · 11 Stocking family · 14 K M Macatawa Park · 7 Maria Theresa · 10 Masonic Temple · 9 McClave, Bud · 12 McClave, Mary · 12 McKnight, Anna (Caulfield) · 12 Michigan Trust building · 12 Miss Eastman’s school · 9 Morris manor · 11 Morris, Ira · 10 Morris, Lily · 10 N Newcombe, Bonnie · 12 Newcombe, Cy · 12 O Oatman, Bob · 11 �17 Stocking, Alida · 2 Stocking, Billius · 2, 3 Stocking, Mary · 2 Stocking, Theodore · 2, 3 Stuyvesant Apartments · 6 Syracuse, New York · 1 T Thayer, Mrs. · 3 U U.N.R.R.A (United Nations Relief and Rehabilitation Administration) · 10, 11 University of Virginia · 10 V Vandenberg, Barbara · 12 Vevia, Virginia · 15 Voigt House · 16 W Widdicombe and Richard · 2 Widdicombe Brothers · 2 Widdicombe family · 14 Widdicombe Furniture Company · 4 Widdicombe Furniture Company · 2 Widdicombe, Abbott · 2 Widdicombe, Alida · 4 Widdicombe, Emily · 4 Widdicombe, George · 1 Widdicombe, Harry · 1, 2 Widdicombe, Harry Theodore · 3 Widdicombe, John · 4 Widdicombe, Mary · 3 Widdicombe, Mr. John · 1 Widdicombe, Ralph · 2 Widdicombe, William · 1, 2, 14 Wonderly house · 6 Wright, Frank Lloyd · 7 Wurzburg, Emily · 11 Wurzburg, Leona · 2 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/941c200dfd603ead13f2ba1970ac2445.mp3 8231dbed4bb65bcd49e300316161502b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_45Widdicombe Title A name given to the resource Widdicombe, John Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Widdicombe, John Description An account of the resource John Widdicombe was born in Grand Rapids. His great-grandfather came to New York from England, before moving to Grand Rapids. Mr. Widdicombe's grandfather Alfred H. Sherwood started the Grand Rapids Panel Company, invented embalming fluid, and had a cottage in Macatawa Park rumored to have been designed by Frank Lloyd Wright. Mr. Widdicombe's father was a lumberman in the north. Mr. Widdicombe attended the University of Virginia. He then moved to New York where he taught at the Grace Church Choir School. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1975 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4ef0a905ea534573d5cdb66ef520c62c.pdf 1a530d32e0bfc90a215cd576ec84ae2a PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mary Baloyan Interviewed on November 13, 1974 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #44 (1:10:47) Biographical Information Mary Baloyan was born 13 October 1899 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. She was the daughter of Martin (Mardiros) A. Baloyan and Nouvart Kurkjian who were married in 1897. Martin was born in Palu, Armenia (now Turkey) in 1868 and died 6 January 1931 in Grand Rapids at his home at 639 Cherry Street SE. Mrs. Nouvart Baloyan was born 3 December 1877 in Palu, Armenia (now Turkey). She survived her husband and died 7 March 1971 at Blodgett Hospital. Mary Baloyan died at Pilgrim Manor in Grand Rapids 21 January 1984 at the age of 84. The Baloyan family plot is in Greenwood Cemetery. ___________ Interviewer: This recording is made on November 13, 1974 at Pilgrim Manor on East Leonard, in the apartment of Miss Baloyan who is a lifelong resident of Grand Rapids. I’m now going to ask Miss Baloyan to tell about her family, her background and her early years as she recalls them in Grand Rapids. Miss Baloyan: Thank you. I am very proud to be able to talk on this subject because I’m so proud of the accomplishments of my parents and other relatives. My parents came to this country in 1897 from what was referred to as Old Armenia. I have seen their passport and it interested me at the time that they could leave the country but could never return. When some years later I took a trip abroad, my relatives were divided on the subject of whether I should revisit that part of the world or not. Since some thought it might be dangerous. My father always used to say, there must be great wealth and resources buried in the mountains of that area since so many Armenians buried their wealth rather than let the enemy Turks take it. My parents had to leave everything they possessed where they had come from, and these days it’s ironic that so many people ask for a hand out or easy access to a living where as I know from firsthand experience that my parents and family had to start with nothing, worked hard and availed themselves to the opportunities of this country. In time, they had three children. My brother was the first Armenian born in Grand Rapids, I was the first Armenian girl born in Grand Rapids and all three of us including, Alfred, my older brother. Alexi, my younger sister who eventually went into interior decorating, and I a middle child. All of us were given outstanding educations and special types of instruction such as in music, dancing, theatre training, interior decoration and my parents too took an active participation in so much of the civic life. �2 Interviewer: I just want to interrupt you a moment and ask, why did your parents happen to choose Grand Rapids? Was there any particular reason? Miss Baloyan: Yes, indeed. My grandfather, who had come to New York in 1890, which is my maternal grandfather, was a steel cabinet maker and as he attempted to work in his craft in New York, he was told he should be in Grand Rapids where the furniture industry was flourishing, and specifically, should be with John Widdicombe. He became the first Grand Rapids settler when he had promised Mr. Widdicombe that if he went into his employ he would never leave him. Widdicombe began taking an interest in him and a very old-fashioned and charming kind of loyalty came about because it was, in time when Grandfather wanted to bring his wife and grown up children to this city to join him, it included my maternal grandmother, my parents, newly married the year before, and a couple of the aunts and an uncle who came to be known locally as Armen Kurkjian. They came to Grand Rapids, Mr. Widdicombe had been instrumental in finding a home for Steven’s family to come too and it was in that home that my brother and I were later born. In time…. Interviewer: Where was that, Miss Baloyan? Miss Baloyan: Where? Interviewer: Where was that? Miss Baloyan: On Fifth Street, on the west side at that time, not too far from Grandfather’s place of employment, at that time. And so we three children grew up, on the west side, until I graduated from the University of Michigan, some years later. Interviewer: Could we back up just for a moment, I’d like you to describe your relationship to Mr. Armen Kurkjian whom I, whom I knew and rather well, because of my family’s early association with Fountain Street Church. Miss Baloyan: Yes, Uncle Armen had come to this country as a boy of 14. Interviewer: He was your mother’s brother? Miss Baloyan: He was my mother’s brother. He brought certain old-fashioned principles to this country with him. Such as the belief that young people shouldn’t smoke and other principles that he sometimes got laughed at. But he used to retain a very lofty kind of set of principles. Eventually as various members of the family joined local organizations, he got quite a good education partly through their encouragement of those who became interested in him. He met at the University of Michigan, eventually, a man named Melvin Baldwin, who became his college room-mate. They became very good friends. My uncle was in civil engineering and some years later, came to Grand Rapids. It must have been mechanical engineering, because he went into Oliver Machinery Company in which Mr. Melvin Baldwin’s family and the Tuthills had been very active. My uncle was, for many years, their sales manager and at one time, opened an office �3 in Saint Louis, Missouri for them. He eventually met, married the woman who left Grand Rapids as his secretary, whose maiden name was Elvestra Wurzburg and who became known as my uncle Sid did for her philanthropic work in the city. Both of them interested in both Fountain Street Church and crippled children’s work, Rotary Rehabilitation work. In the mean time my father opened an Oriental restaurant on East Fulton Street and an art goods shop, a block east of there also on East Fulton. They were quite, recognized as quality shops and in the summer-time when his children had vacation from school, he came to open summer-time resort branches in such places as Grand Haven or Muskegon, had even gone as far away as Cleveland, Ohio, Kalamazoo and Benton Harbor. However his primary interest was rugs and related art objects. My mother took a great interest in music, interpreting for less fortunate Armenians and in education her children. She herself joined the Lady’s Literary Club, eventually Women’s City Club and other broadening influences. She took a very active interest in church work. In this particular branch of the family attended Saint Mark’s Episcopal Church where I have been a member now fifty eight years. It has made a great many fine friendships for us among other values. For instance, through the work of my family, my sister and brother also went into related fields. Through the work of my family, we came to meet people in the various arts, so then we began taking an active interest. Eventually, I was encouraged to go into Civic Theatre work where I went on a board, worked in that area for twenty years, and became vice-president. Through our music lessons we became interested in concerts and help local concert campaigns. Also I became interested, after many years later, after mother’s death, in establishing some music scholarships on a college level for Interlochen in memory of my mother. There are also a memoriam of this at St. Mark’s church in her memory because while she was choir mother there, it was the consuming interest that meant a great deal to her. The other arts were not neglected. We had an interest in all of them. I eventually went to the University of Michigan after starting at junior college, became interested in English, along with several other hobbies such at the theatre, continuing as a hobby. After I had attained my master, masters in English at the University of Michigan I started teaching school six months in Zeeland. Interviewer: When was this, Miss Baloyan? Miss Baloyan: The beginning of my career was in 1923. As a matter of fact, when, the following year I came back, I came to Grand Rapids to start a career in teaching. It was the beginning of 42 ½ years in Grand Rapids in teaching—most of it at Ottawa Hills High School. The last thirteen years at Junior College, so that I taught English 43 years, 15 of those years also dramatics. Because I went for six years of education to the fine arts department of Yale University, where I was privileged to attend the famous Yale Workshop under George Pierce Baker, who used to be at Harvard but moved over to Yale when an enterprising philanthropist named Harkness built a good building, good theatre for Yale. So the work was transferred over there. I came back to Grand Rapids, established a laboratory theatre in Ottawa Hill High School which for fifteen years functioned under the name of mine. We sent out from that theatre people into many artistic areas. Some of them now professional and it’s a source of great happiness to me that many of the �4 people who participated and worked so hard, remember it and comment on it with joy to this day. Interviewer: Who were some of these people, could you tell who some of them are? Miss Baloyan: Yes, Jack Thompson, for instance, is on a college staff in New York, he appeared two or three years ago as the author of an article in the Harper’s magazine in which he attempted to recall his yesterdays in Grand Rapids, as his title was. “It was my privilege to have him name me in that article as his favorite teacher”. So, then Lloyd Matoon, he went into the commercial end of TV work, specializing for a while in the Chrysler ads. Out west, the man who is lighting the Lawrence Welk show did the lighting for me, in the laboratory theatre. His name is Wallace Stanard. His name is still seen on TV in connection with being technical manager for the Lawrence Welk program. There were others who went out west and there a some whose names I don’t just recall now, but many have commented. Several of the presidents of the local Women’s City Club have been former members of that group. Shall I name some of them? Interviewer: Yes. Miss Baloyan: Mrs. Birch, Mrs. Whittier, and Mrs. the present President, Mrs. Smiley I could be forgiven, I hope for some delight in their continuing to enjoy memories of those days because I believe so deeply that the extras in education such as contact with creativity, helped to give lasting joy in the memories of people who’ve experienced the creativity. Our work has included writing and designing of costumes, coloring of materials, making of patterns, make, designing scenery, making scenery, planning and & operating the lighting, and so many other areas. Ann Kleiner went to Yale after a number of years. She had been a student of mine in the laboratory theatre and she is now in Detroit doing creative lighting for Detroit businesses. Interviewer: Is that Bob Kleiner’s sister? Miss Baloyan: Yes, it is. When she comes to Grand Rapids, she contacts me sometimes. I take great delight in the fact that the students who had with me in dramatics, had invented the nickname “Chief” for me because they said my own name was a little long to say back-stage. Well, some amusing results followed, for instance the Kleiners were so use to calling me Chief at home, that their aunt Mrs. Seidman, now many years later, when she sees me downtown, says “Hello Chief,” and I love hearing say it. I am very proud of the viewpoint that my parents brought to this country from a place where there was so much tyranny. Their attitude was, that there are opportunities here, let us avail ourselves of some of the opportunities and let us help ourselves. I’m afraid I’m a little impatient with those who sit around and wait for help if they can help themselves because I’ve seen examples of members of my family including other cousins and uncles and aunts, members of my family, get through hard work and enjoy it and become contributors, not just absorbers, in society. One of the things for which I’m very grateful is that, though my family came from a land with so much tyranny, they welcomed the opportunity of freedom here. One evidence of it is that various branches of the family attended different �5 churches and became active contributors in different churches. Yet they didn’t sit in judgment on one another because it wasn’t the same as the old Armenian Orthodox Apostolic Church. I’ve always been very happy in the Episcopal Church. My uncle and aunt, the Kurchins, were always extremely happy in the Fountain Street Church. And this is just part of the freedom that they displayed all the way through. Some of them have been very funny. For instance, there was once a man who traveled all the way from California to this town because he’d heard there were unmarried Armenian girls in this town. He was a complete stranger, but he had once come here, during the Near East Relief War. He had come here to lecture and had seen some of us participating in programs and, decided, this was a good family to be attached to. So years later he came back, in order to try to make a match, went to my parents, and tried to persuade them to allow him to begin courting one of us, and to his amazement, instead of arranging a match, my father told him that they never interfered with the choices and decisions we made. So I’m proud that my family had acquired so much of the principles of this country. I’m grateful for them and, if sometimes, I fancy that some of the teaching I have done has been of some value, I cannot fail to give great credit to the family of character and intelligence that gave me a good start in life. Other subjects I should have touched on, perhaps, you would like to know, I moved from the West side to the Heritage Hill area. Interviewer: I’d like to ask you, I like to ask you some questions about how long did you live on the West Side and did you, go to school over there and if so, where? That’s the sort of thing, I’d like to go into now. Miss Baloyan: I attended Union High School as did my brother and sister both. I was given many fine opportunities there. Worked on the literary periodicals there, I graduated from Union High School in 1918. I started attending Junior College two years, where I made some of my life-long friendships, from other areas in the city and where I came to be a great believer in Junior College for giving a good foundation of an education. Then I went on to the University of Michigan for two years to get my BA, first. The year I was graduated from the University of Michigan, 1922. Our family who then had some stores on East Fulton for some time, decided to moved to the East side and selected a spacious place on Cherry Street, because it was not far from the downtown area. We found it a good central location to radiate from and as I taught in many different localities in the city, starting downtown at North Division two years, the Harrison Park Junior High on the Northwest, five years then in the Southeast at Ottawa Hills twenty-one years and interrupting the act for education and then eventually going downtown again to Junior College for thirteen years. And I radiated to the various schools and to the various Civic organizations, I had become interested in. Eventually I went on a board of directors and not only of the Civic Theatre and Community Concerts and Urban League, but I also did volunteer work. And my sister went into dancing and interior decorating. My brother stayed for awhile in my father’s business and eventually he opened a retail store of his own for rugs but later he started a rug servicing place on the side of the building. Mother joined an organization both for American and Armenian and both my parents tried to be good citizen in both, I feel that one of the �6 advantages of my background has been that I have been expected to be both a good American and a good Armenian and I have come to believe that this is for me at least, a better idea even, than the melting pot idea because I have seen that as various ethnic groups retain their customs and identity the various groups contribute a great deal of richness to American life. I have enjoyed living in the near downtown area. There are many advantages. There used to be even more. The streets are kept very clean in the winter because it’s a passageway through downtown. Those residences now considered old and large, used to be one-family residences and one knew one’s neighbors and there were many prime families and it was very…. Interviewer: Who were some, who were some of your neighbors…. Miss Baloyan: Well, across the street used to be some branches of the Alby family and next to them the Edwin Kleins who became active in a different kind of church, where he helped to spread the Giddeon Bible around. Next to them was a family whose name now escapes me but they lived in the brick house a very long time. Just west of us there used to be the Blanchards, there are many other old families whose names I would have to look up again to recall but, we all knew one another and it was a personal commitment to one another that I think was fine. It had another advantage that as people traveled towards downtown for business or religious purposes or other purposes, they had to pass houses such as ours and they often stopped and became acquainted and to this day they come and on the yards that are kept up well and the yards that aren’t. And I feel that I’ve been very many places in my life. I have never felt that the fact that I was from an immigrant family had handicapped me in the slightest respect because people of breeding and education apply these qualities to their outlooks and to the way they live. I’ve encountered people, we have been able to share ideas and laughter and an interest in causes. We have even found controversial subjects such as sometimes, politics and I have not felt any barriers to camaraderie and in fact, people of quality are actually interested in the different aspects of your life and background. Such as mine is full of unique customs and traditions. On New Year’s Eve, when my grandparents were living, they used to collect the entire clan, cousins, uncles, aunts, the children, into the living room which ran into the dining room. We’d all get down on our knees and our grandfather would lead us in prayer, for the coming year. We learned a great many customs that were unique to us. And I remember one time when I was in grade school, another custom that puzzled me for awhile, but I’m amused by now, because I was short of stature, I was to lead a wand drill in a program for relatives. Besides that the very charming teacher was dating my uncle at that time and I always wondered which was the reason that I was chosen. But I was to lead and my grandmother decides to come to the program. I was a little bit shocked when she kissed the hand of the principal, the teacher, and any other dignitaries around because since I had been exposed to a few of the customs and teachings in school I had decided very ardently that it was unsanitary for grandmother to kiss the hands of other people. As some years passed and I reflected what a sweet and loving grandmother I’d had, it seemed to me it was sweet and humble of her to do it because it was her way of paying respects and gratitude for what had been done for her members of her family. So though part of my bringing up has been �7 different, a considerable of it has been the same. I was fortunate enough to win a half scholarship in piano with Otto [(?) Molly], who started the symphony before the current Grand Rapids Symphony. He was a magnificent teacher and quite an interesting man, I used to take my piano lessons in the very room that is now the drawing room for the Women’s City Club. It was then his studio. Sometimes has as many as three grand pianos in it, usually Steinways. And he was tall, very strong man and sometimes, especially when I first transferred from an organ teacher to a piano teacher he felt I was still playing the organ on the piano and he put his knee under the piano board, would raise his knees and the board would leave my hands and would push my hands up and, he did many other interesting eccentric things that have to make him picturesque and that created great affection for him. He used to draw designs on music to show you either the way he wanted your wrist movement to go or the way he didn’t want your arm to go. He used to have other musicians come in from Chicago, where he had come from, to make records with him and if I’d had a good lesson because he knew I was enchanted by these informal sessions he used to reward me by allowing me to sit in the room on a stool quietly while he and a violinist and a cellist made beautiful, musical records. He had a hobby of photography that caused him to give the results of his picture making sometimes to students. Usually however, you knew if you’d had a good lesson because he wouldn’t say anything. If you didn’t have a good lesson he would point it out. Oh, I have been grateful not only to special teachers such as that, but, for instance to the Calle Travis Studio where I studied there from, with Harriet Blood, to study dancing and then years later after I had trained in dramatics I taught ballet and pantomime to some of Miss Travis’ senior students. It included such people as Marsha Travis, the Goodspeed girls, and so many other lovely girls whose names, I would have to look up but, some of the lovely young matrons of Grand Rapids. But teaching ballet, ballet pantomime in Miss Travis’ studio was a great privilege, since I always thought she had an outstanding ballet studio. I have covered several of the arts but our interests and activities were even more extensive than anything I have mentioned. So whatever else you would like to know I’d be happy to go into. Interviewer: Well, I can’t help but realize that, I run into you fairly often in the art museum. Have you ever had any special role in, in the life of the museum? Miss Baloyan: Only in the respect that, when a former director Otto Bach was here his wife Ciel (?) Cile Bach used to write skits sometimes which, I sometimes helped to perform for them. I remember too that a Dr. Rosenswag and I were together on an interview program one time. I can’t claim to have helped them in any other respect, except that we have always been interested in our family in helping in minor ways and just now I have presented them with some of my father’s fine ancient porcelain vases of Chinese make. Some of them are from the Chung Ling period, several centuries old. They have been appraised, it’s very valuable, has been accessed by the appraisers as extremely gorgeous and they will be at the museum in memory of my father. I have also promised to send them and, very soon, at the beginning of a new year, and send them and the public museum also, some silk rugs, since silk rugs are not very common here. The one that will go to the Art Museum is a silk Kashan(?) prayer rug of, some beauty and rarity. I can’t �8 say I’ve done a great deal for them, but I have enjoyed such contacts as I’ve had. And believe it is one of local institutions that should be helped. I have also felt that way about the Saint Cecilia Music Society of which I’m also a member and I wouldn’t know where to draw the line except to say all the educational and cultural, the artistic organizations in town receive our interest and support often. Interviewer: You want to stop for just a minute? I think we’ll turn the tape over at this time and proceed on side two. Interviewer: We stopped our interview for a moment and talked about a few other matters and Miss Baloyan has recalled that there are some other people she would like to talk about and I’m going to hand the microphone to her now and let her continue. Miss Baloyan: When my father’s store was on East Fulton the Grand Rapids Press and the Herald, the morning paper, were both within a block of distance from his store with the result that as we dropped into the store the members of the family became acquainted with some of the main writers in Grand Rapids including reporters, columnists, critics and even the editor of the Press, Mr. Booth and Mr. Frank Sparks from the Herald. They became of such interest to us that they actually influenced us in various ways and we were very fond of them. At one time since I had become so much interested in books, my mother used to make sure that when we were children we were always surrounded by educational material. Miss May Quigley, the children’s librarian used to tell me that every Saturday afternoon Mother used to walk to the library and say I would like a book of poems for my Mary and the result was I always had books around me and it became a lifetime interest so that gradually I became interested in writing. But I had so many other interests too. So I went to see Mr. Booth, the editor of the Press to interview him on what he thought of journalism as a possible career for a young lady who was attending the University of Michigan. And he said to me and he knew us well by then. He said I would like to encourage you to go into it but he said at this time you would have to limit yourself to obituaries and social notes and he said if you would find that sufficiently interesting then it would be well to go into journalism. When I think now of the changes in opportunities for women journalists I recall that with great respect for his honesty in that period of time. However, as I became interested in other area such as theatre, I attended various summer theatres, one in Booth Bay Harbor, Maine and one in the north of this state with one of the directors from Civic Theatre here. And since I had finished training at the Yale University Theatre, the Yale workshop department and since they didn’t allow us to specialize, it was a broad thorough training, and at that time as I wondered how I could use it, Miss Mary Remington, the well beloved drama critic of the Grand Rapids Press, said to me, if you decide to apply as the director of the Civic Theatre, we will back you. But by that time I was interested in teaching because I felt I could combine many of my interests in the teaching area. But to this day I have retained a deep interest in the work of our local columnists and critics. Don’t find them all equally good. For instance, Miss Margarete Kerns was a name I came to know well, and I hope that some of the newer people coming will match the contributions that were made by Mary Remington, Margarete Kerns, and others. I have also �9 come to respect the work of Jerry Elliot who writes with a distinctive style. And I think that some of these people who we have taken for granted have, made much more expanded contributions than we’ve realized. For instance, one of the special interests of the Cyprus situation to me last year was the fact that former Junior college student of mine, for I came to teach in Junior College eventually, was a boy who later became cultural attaché with the American Embassy in Cyprus. I wasn’t sure whether he had been returned to this country or not during the recent troubles and I knew that after his work at Junior College he had worked for a while with Mr. Elliot, Jerry Elliot and others at the Grand Rapids Press. I started to investigate and learned fortunately in May he had been returned to this country and there was a story within recent months of the fact that his wife and child had followed him. So you see reporters and columnists have not only done an interesting job for us but have trained some future journalist and government workers, who have contributed to our daily lives. I think some of fail to realize what a great town Grand Rapids actually is. Several times in the opportunities that I’ve had I have had tempting openings in other areas of this country but contrary to Mr. Butts, opinion of the area, I have loved Grand Rapids and I made the decision to come back here and to stay here and I’ve never regretted it. I know there are many others. Grand Rapids not too large, not to small and it’s had all the opportunities that the larger centers offer and it’s a good thing that some of us do prefer coming back to our town and bringing with us, experiences we have picked up elsewhere so that through our travels, we can bring a little of Maine, a little of Connecticut, a little bit of northern Michigan and so many other areas, back to Grand Rapids. I don’t think it’s an accident that Grand Rapids is foremost in some of the contemporary art projects of recent years and has shown leadership in other progressive areas I think it’s because, there is an interest here in good things. I don’t even think that the furniture industry has completely left us, for its influence on modern life can be shown in our continuing preference for quality in daily life. And I’m so happy to have known some of the people who have worked in connection with the arts in Grand Rapids and with furniture in Grand Rapids and with business in Grand Rapids. You asked, Mr. Hutchins, about my uncle Armen Kurchin one of the smart things he helped to do happened when the depression was felt so deeply here and some of the furniture factories were wondering what the future of the city would be. Well, the Chamber of Commerce and my uncle actively participating, used their skills for helping to bring in new metal industries and other new interests that have continues here and have helped to keep our commerce, successful as much as anywhere else in any period. Interviewer: You mentioned having written Secretary Butts in regard to his rather unfortunate remarks about Grand Rapids, if you would just like to comment on that. Miss Baloyan: I was indignant as I’m sure so were others, so I wrote Mr. Butts, that although I know Mr. Butts that you must have been at least half joking in your reference to Grand Rapids, when you suggested that, take away a furniture factory or two and the town could blow into Canada, I said there is a suggestion there that we are provincial. I said far from being provincial, this is a highly cosmopolitan town in many ways. Where else can you find in a middle-sized �10 town six colleges, an art museum that is sought out by neighboring communities, a public museum that goes in, that brings in many ethnic groups and it goes into other communities with its activities, this is a town of several hundred churches, this is a town which was smart enough when the furniture industry began suffering, weakening, smart enough to bring in other industries so that it could succeed if not always in the same way, then in new ways. This is indeed a cosmopolitan town with all the opportunities that one could find in the larger communities and so we’re not in the least provincial and I’m sure that although our new president may have compassion for workers in agriculture he is well acquainted with other aspects of Grand Rapids life too and so Mr. Butts in our community we like the authentic. Interviewer: Speaking of the president, do you know Mr. Ford or Mrs. Ford? Miss Baloyan: I know both, President and Mrs. Ford. In fact, at one time President Ford, as a choir boy sang in the Saint Mark’s Church Choir. His parents, his mother and his step-father, the Jerry Ford Seniors were extremely, highly respected both in our church and the community and they were wonderful people. In the later years I came to know Betty too as a dancer. In fact, in one of our local dramatic programs, she danced for us very beautifully, very gracefully. They are very fine people although one may differ with a particular political decision and practice, anybody who knows Jerry or Betty cannot doubt their integrity and good intentions. I will say they are very religious people, sincerely religious. I think we are fortunate that there are people of character who will try to help us out at a time character seems like a lost quality in this country, I don’t really believe that. I want to emphasize it just seems that way. Interviewer: Let’s turn it off a minute, Miss Baloyan, when you… I’d like to ask you, how you first became interested in the Urban League because that’s in, you were one of the first members, I believe? Miss Baloyan: I had been doing some work in dramatics when an old school-mate Marsha Marshall(?) who was in the Urban League work asked if I’d be interested in trying some dramatics with the minority group and whites working together. It sounded like an interesting project so I did one year of class work, in dramatics for both blacks and whites together. We met in the basement of the St. Philip’s Church which is called the Under-Croft and then at the end of the year, we gave a program at the local YMCA, where we were given an auditorium type of room with a platform and my students from classes at Ottawa Hills supplied the scenery and did the back-stage work and we gave a bi-racial dramatic program. Then at the end of that year, I was asked if I’d like to go on a board. I went on a board for three years at a time when Dr. Claytor was president at the end of that time I had a kind of collapse, at school and had to go to the hospital so I thought for reasons of health I should not consider returning to the board so I served one year of volunteer work in dramatics and three years on the board. And the Urban League work was most fascinating. One of the great benefits was that I got to know Paul and Ethel Philips real well and they are to this day among my very good friends and I’m still very much interested in the welfare of that project. This is just one of several of the civic groups that I �11 got interested in. The community Concerts Organization showed great promise for awhile because although there were New York agencies helping us, advising us and booking for us, the actual campaign work was done locally and we were able to bring international artists at a very low cost because many citizens helped to sell season memberships. You became a member by buying this season ticket. This work could have gone on indefinitely if the local group had not changed from the original plans, it fell through. I think probably the civic organization I worked for the longest was the Civic Theatre Group. Interviewer: When did you start to work for the Civic Theatre, were you, was it formed, when you were originally associated with it? Miss Baloyan: I joined in the year that Maud Feely was the director. She was a professional actress here with a professional troupe. Interviewer: In what year was that again? Miss Baloyan: Doing it from memory I would say roughly 1924. I was in the second play that was given called the Doctor, directed by Feely. For a time… Interviewer: How do you spell her last name? Miss Baloyan: F-double e-l-y. For a time it satisfied me to do character acting and when especially when Paul Stevenson came and the movement changed from the St. Cecilia building over on the west side in Old Germania Hall it was so colorful and the director was so talented that it became an enchanting and rewarding activity to act for him. In the meantime, he advised me, to go into some aspect of the theatre, possibly directing and I came to realize that directing would satisfy me most of all because although we the American public glorify the actors actually the director is one of those getting the greatest satisfaction because he has to be so creative that he can pull all the different arts together, that are involved in one unified production and approach and so because of Mr. Stevenson’s suggestion that I go on with work at Yale University, I did so and continued my interest in Civic Theatre when I returned as doing it as a hobby. I was on their board a long number of years and worked with them twenty years so with the work at several of the local buildings including the Ladies Literary Club, St. Cecelia, Germania Hall, before they began hiring public buildings when some of us gave our greatest devotion to it. The early days were colorful and interesting….. Interviewer: Who were some of the people in the early days that you remember? Miss Baloyan: Well, of course, the one that many Grand Rapids citizens would remember would be Mrs. Myrtle Coon Sherman. When her son who was a professional actor died, she decided to have a Saturday night salon, a weekly salon meeting in her apartment. And so she invited as a kind of memorial to him a group of local people which included Millicent Mackaway now Millicent Hubbard, Nacib Demusse, the former city manager of Battle Creek, Camilia Boone, �12 who married Nacib Demusse, Paul Stevenson, me and several other people who used to meet in her apartment weekly. We would meet professional people that came through the town briefly. We had a literary, artistic, theatrical interest and this group was part of the bowl work of Civic Theatre. Not the only ones but part of the bowl work and well, among some of the main people in later years, Mr. Phil Buchen was on one of the boards. Mr. A…I believe Harold Hartger was on the board, of course Allen G. Miller was an active member, it’s I’m afraid trying to go back without notes or doing and research leaves a great many gaps of important names, But these are some of the people. Interviewer: You must have known Louise Hirst? Miss Baloyan: Of course Louise Hirst, was a good friend of mine, and and a very active member, so was Mrs. Steketee and a…. Interviewer: Which Mrs. Steketee? Miss Baloyan: John Steketee’s mother. Interviewer: Oh, yes, yes. Miss Baloyan: And well, there were such well known names in Grand Rapids, such devoted, loyal people that’s it’s a shame that right now I don’t recall all the names too readily but, they worked hard in those early years. Interviewer: I like to ask a question, I know you’re a long, long time member of St. Mark’s Episcopal Church, are you, in any particular church group or guild in that, in that church? Miss Baloyan: I’m delighted you asked me this question because in the three years since my mother’s death, in the years that I’ve been alone, the opportunities at St. Mark’s Episcopal Church have meant survival for us. I am in some of the adult classes and they are taught by various members of the clergy. I am also in a Tuesday night discussion group, which takes up interesting, topics. I am also a member of Cathedral League, it was my mother’s guild and as I started taking her in later years, I was asked to join and did. Mrs. Harry B. Wagner is the present president of it. I have been extremely active in the classes conducted by the Reverend Mr. George Howell and the presently Mr. James (?) and presently the evening, Tuesday evening, group is being conducted by Mr. Peter Winter. So all three of our clergy are participating in a very fine learning opportunity for adults as the enrollment of the young people began dwindling. The so called task force planning, the educational program for the church created an enlarged program for adults and it has been extremely well received so that there are at least seventy-five adults enrolled in the Sunday morning classes now and I participate regularly, and feel that I have learned a great deal and one of the incidental bonuses is the delightful fellowship with church members. At one time when we were younger we knew the people in a young people’s group real well, but then as years followed we didn’t always have the opportunities to come to �13 know our fellow churchmen, intimately. These adult classes have provided fellowship together with what I consider a very beneficial part of our church program, the Sunday morning coffee following the church service which is an opportunity for visiting with one’s friends and I will say I have come to know dozens of church members well as individuals and they have come to be so important in my life. They’re so kind and considerate and thoughtful. And it’s such a joy to meet them out, say on a symphony night or other nights. One feels that one has acquired a second family. The church program has come to function very well. A part of it that I hadn’t expected to enjoy so much but do enjoy is the opportunity to serve on the community involvement committee I was asked to visit some of the agencies to which our church has contributed and I have interviewed their directors, written up reports of their answers and of the activities of these social agencies and we have started a file on some of the agencies that our church is interested in. We are going to make our next project the effort to get more individuals involved in active volunteering for some of the organizations that we feel are worthy. And this opportunity has been so interesting, so satisfying, as one gets so tremendously interested and then one reads in the paper that this or that group had to give up because they couldn’t continue financially. It became a personal disaster because one has become so much convinced of the worthiness of that project. Interviewer: Can you think of a particular one that has suffered, gone out of existence? Miss Baloyan: Well, the Baxter Community has, hadn’t releases and news stories saying that they’re having problems. I have heard a recent story that there may be funds coming to their rescue. But as a former teacher I am especially distressed because part of their programs consisted of the effort to educate all people of all races who live in a particular under privileged community, who wish to go to that center. The Baxter Community Center, offers education in so many areas and including some of the basic education work that may be found in quite a number of other centers also but it does not limit itself to that. I think that’s one of the most notable ones that has suffered for lack of funds. Interviewer: All right, I think we’ve covered quite a multitude of subjects, I’d like to ask you a question now, you just moved in the last few days I believe, Up to this new facility, the Pilgrim Manor, you lived, I believe, up to your move in the, your old family home on Cherry Street, is that correct? Miss Baloyan: Yes. We lived in that home fifty-two years. Interviewer: What was the address? Miss Baloyan: Six-thirty-nine Cherry Street. And I have now been at Pilgrim Manor two weeks and it has solved a number of problems for me. One certainly can no longer be alone and if one wishes to leave the group and other people one has one’s room and numerous places he can escape to lovely courts, with beautiful views and classroom, the activities don’t completely, fill one’s interest, some of us are allowed to drive, I continue to drive my car so that I can still seek �14 other areas where other interests of mine are but, this is a very friendly place to be with numerous opportunities, it is a concept that I was lucky enough to have in existence in my time. I shudder to think what people used to have to do in their retirement years a few years back. What a blessing that now, there are retirement homes often started by churches and sometimes built partly with federal funds, but what a blessing this particular retirement home has a hundred and fifty eight residents. There is a bus that is able sometimes to drive us to shopping centers or to other areas of the interest, if there are as many as nine persons interested. It’s easily available to downtown. There’s considerable freedom one is urged to continue attending their church of his choice, is urged to continue seeing his own physician and yet there is a good health center here too. It’s of course requiring some adjustments from a home that I have known for fifty-two years but, although many happy years were spent in that home, the time comes when one looks forward to the time when he may want and need more help, Thank God there is such a thing as a retirement home concept. And Pilgrim Manor is a very friendly one. Interviewer: I think that’s perhaps a good place to close our interview. I’m delighted to have had this opportunity to learn about many of your activities and interests over the years. You certainly had a fascinating life, and you’re one of the best beloved people in our community. I’ve heard that from many, many people. So, it’s now, I believe ten after three and, I hope maybe someday we can have another chat. INDEX A C Alby Family · 6 B Bach Family · 8 Baldwin, Melvin · 3 Baloyan, Alexi (Sister) · 1 Baloyan, Alfred (Brother) · 1 Baloyan, Martin (Mardiros) A. (Father) · 1, 3, 5, 6, 8, 11 Baloyan, Nouvart Kurkjian (Mother) · 2, 3, 9, 11, 13 Baxter Community Center · 14 Birch, Mrs. · 4 Blanchard Family · 6 Blood, Harriet · 8 Boone, Camilia · 13 Booth, Mr. · 9 Buchen, Phil · 13 Butts, Secretary · 10, 11 Cathedral League · 13 Civic Theatre · 3, 6, 9, 12, 13 Claytor, Dr. · 11 Coon Sherman, Myrtle · 12 D Demusse, Nacib · 13 E Elliot, Jerry · 9 F Feely, Maud · 12 Ford, President and Mrs. · 11 Fountain Street Church · 2, 3, 5 �15 H R Hirst, Louise · 13 Howell, Reverend George · 13 Hubbard, Millicent · 13 Remington, Mary · 9 Rosenswag, Dr. · 8 K Kerns, Margarete · 9 Klein Family · 6 Kleiner Family · 5 Kleiner, Ann · 4 Kurchin Family · 5, 10 Kurchin, Armen (Uncle) · 2, 3, 5, 7, 10 Kurkjian, Armen (Uncle) · 2 Kurkjian, Grandfather · 2, 7 Kurkjian, Grandmother · 2, 7 L Lady’s Literary Club · 3 Lawrence Welk Show · 4 M S Saint Mark’s Episcopal Church · 3, 11 Seidman, Mrs. · 5 Smiley, Mrs. · 4 Sparks, Frank · 9 St. Cecilia's Music Society · 8, 12 Stanard, Wallace · 4 Steketee, Mrs. · 13 Stevenson, Paul · 12, 13 T Thompson, Jack · 4 Travis, Marsha · 8 U Matoon, Lloyd · 4 Union High School · 5 University of Michigan · 2, 6, 9 Urban League · 6, 11 O W Oliver Machinery Company · 3 Ottawa Hills High School · 4 Wagner, Mrs. Harry B. · 13 Whittier, Mrs. · 4 Widdicombe, John · 2 Winter, Peter · 13 Women’s City Club · 3, 4, 7 Wurzburg, Elvestra · 3 P Philips, Paul and Ethel · 11 Pilgrim Manor · 1, 14, 15 Q Quigley, May · 9 Y Yale University · 4, 9, 12 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3dd900e17fcd265d94690c4b044354af.mp3 b03ddd1898ce3aed565de7606de81310 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_44Baloyan Title A name given to the resource Baloyan, Mary Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Baloyan, Mary Description An account of the resource Mary Baloyan's parents came from Armenia in 1897. She was the first Armenian girl born October 13, 1899 in Grand Rapids. She graduated from the University of Michigan in 1922. She later was a teacher at Ottawa Hills High School, JRCC, and in Zeeland for about forty-three years total. She was involved with the Urban League, Community Concerts Organization, and Baxter Community Center. She was Vice-President of the Civic Theatre, and established music scholarships to the Interlochen Arts Academy. Mary Baloyan died on January 21, 1984. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1974 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3b7081e6309993e6a0c3393468ee2f02.pdf 449f10165c59d9cb1e309aee80c6dd9c PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mrs. Stuart Knappen Interviewed on October 23, 1974 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #42 (1:10:47) Biographical Information Mrs. Stuart Knappen was born Claire L. Vesey in Memphis, Tennessee on 27 October 1880. She was the daughter of Marcellus Lauderdale Vesey and Kate Shropshire. Claire was first married to George H. Walker in Boston, Massachusetts on 12 August 1905. Evidently either George died or they divorced and Claire married as her second husband Stuart Knappen on 12 January 1916 in Chicago, Illinois. Mrs. Knappen died at the age of 102 years in Grand Rapids on 4 November 1982 and is buried in Oak Hill Cemetery. Stuart Edwin Knappen was born in Hastings, Michigan on 30 August 1877, the son of Loyal Edwin Knappen and Amelia Isabel Kenyon. Stuart was first married to Edna B. Pilcher about 1901 and they had a son Alvin and two daughters, Polly and Jane. Edna died at the Knappen home at 330 Washington Street on 3 February 1913 and is buried in Oak Hill Cemetery. Stuart married Claire and they resided at 322 Fountain Street. Stuart died at his home 14 April 1938 and is also buried in Oak Hill Cemetery. ___________ Interviewer: I‟m recording this interview at the residence of Mrs. Stuart Knappen. Her residence is located in the old Albert Stickley house which is located at Sixty Prospect, North-east. It was built before the turn of the century by Albert Stickley, one of the famous furniture men of his day and was occupied by the Stickley family into the nineteen twenties. At some point a, either in the nineteen thirties or nineteen forties this house was converted into apartments. Mrs. Knappen‟s apartment is on the second floor and is a very lovely apartment and you can see the traces of the old, this beautiful framework, on the, on the walls in this room. Was this a, perhaps a bedroom? Knappen: No, it, it was Mrs. Stickley‟s living room. And a, back there was… Interviewer: It was an upstairs sitting room or living room. Knappen: Yes. Interviewer: Well we‟ll start, we‟ll start by a, I should let the listener know that Mrs. Knappen is perhaps the oldest person we‟ve ever interviewed, or almost at least, and she will be celebrating her ninety-fourth birthday the day after tomorrow. This is the twenty-third of October so she‟ll be ninety-four on the twenty-seventh. Alright. �2 Knappen: Sunday. Interviewer: It‟ll be Sunday, I see alright now, Mrs. Knappen, why don‟t you start out by telling us where you were born, what was your maiden name, and tell us about your family background. Knappen: Well, I was born in eighteen eighty in Memphis, Tennessee. And my father was Judge M. L. Vesey. V like Victor. V-E-S-E-Y. And he was judge of the Chancery Court, in Memphis. Interviewer: Had, had the Vesey family lived in Memphis for a long time? Knappen: The Vesey family originally came from England and they were in New York, he was a minister at the church right at the head of Wall Street where he‟s buried now. Interviewer: That was the first Vesey. Knappen: Yes, the first Vesey. Interviewer: Isn‟t that Trinity Church, I think? Knappen: Trinity Church. And he‟s buried in the yard there. Interviewer: And your family eventually moved south then? Knappen: They eventually moved south. My father, before the war you know, he moved to Memphis and he lived there with his first wife who was killed during that war, you know what war. Interviewer: The Civil War. Yeah. Knappen: Civil War and a, she died then and he married my mother who was twenty or thirty years younger than he was, and a… Interviewer: Where was she from? Knappen: From England. She was English. And her grandfather was the Lord-Mayor of London. Interviewer: And what was your mother‟s maiden name? Knappen: Shropshire. Interviewer: Shropshire? Knappen: S-H-R-O-P-S-H-I-R-E. And her father owned a line of Steam-boats and we were next door neighbors to Robert E. Lee, you know. Interviewer: I see, when they lived in Virginia, I take it. �3 Knappen: Yes, Robert E. Lee lived in Memphis. Interviewer: Oh I, I didn‟t know that. Knappen: Yes, he lived next door to where our house is backed up together. Interviewer: I always assumed he lived in Virginia, for most of his life, but, I‟m obviously incorrect. Knappen: No, Robert E. Lee lived right there in Memphis. And he had a daughter Royene(?) Lee and another one Ora Lee(?) and the steamboats were named for those girls, as well as the boys. And a… Interviewer: Did you have brothers and sisters? Knappen: There were four of us. Two boys and two girls. Interviewer: And these were all by your father‟s second marriage. Knappen: Second marriage. And my youngest brother, I have a picture of him right here, he was very successful. And he was in the Piano business like what‟s his name, ya, you know.. Interviewer: I can‟t think myself. Piano business in Grand Rapids. Knappen: Yes. Well, down there on Monroe it was… Interviewer: You mean it was a retail piano business. Knappen: Yeah. He sold Steinways and all kinds of musical instruments. Interviewer: Would that be like Old Grinnell Brothers downtown or,… Knappen: Same thing, that‟s what I was trying to think of. Interviewer: I see. Knappen: That kind of business. And he died a couple of years ago at Christmas. He fell, in the bath, slipped in the bathroom tub and died. Interviewer: Were you the youngest? Knappen: I was the youngest girl. There was my brother Walter, then my sister May D. M-A-Y capital D. And then I came along and then John. And Walter was the sweetest, kindest, best person in the world. But he never could make a go of anything. He, and a, can you shut that off a minute, I want to… �4 Interviewer: Sure. Knappen: Well, I went to, I never went to public schools. I went to Miss Conway‟s Institute in Memphis and then I went to a Southern college, private college in Bowling Green, Kentucky. Girls didn‟t, Southern girls didn‟t go East to school in my day. They went to some local college, like right in Kentucky, few miles from Memphis, you know, and my brothers went to military school, Colburn and so forth and my sister went the same as I did. Interviewer: I see. I‟ve always heard that Memphis was quite a social place, especially many years ago. Do you have any special memories about that? Knappen: Yes, I got, I was elected the most beautiful girl in Tennessee! Interviewer: Well… Knappen: By popular subscription but you know, the prize was to lead the Cotillion at the boy‟s social club. Interviewer: I see. Knappen: …was “the” club of Memphis. And a, just very funny these were two girls that, a, Helen Whiteside of Nashville, and, I mean of Chattanooga, and I, we ran neck and neck up „til the last week or so. But I won… Interviewer: How did they select the beauty queen in those days? Knappen: By subscribing to the newspaper. Interviewer: I see. Knappen: With a subscription to the paper you‟d get so many votes. Interviewer: I see. Knappen: And in the Nashville, a, Chattanooga paper against the Memphis paper. Interviewer: I see. Knappen: And I, these sound so silly, my family felt they were disgraced when I tried on this silver slipper at the downtown shoe store, the one that fit three, size three, and I had little feet. And I went in and tried it on and won it. And the family was, when it came out in the paper that I‟d won the Cinderella slipper, they felt they were disgraced. It was so funny you know and what difference did it make? We young girls thought it was so funny but our families didn‟t this so. And, well let‟s see, I can‟t think of anything very exciting. �5 Interviewer: Well I take it you have a very pleasant a… Knappen: Oh yeah... Interviewer: …time in those days. Knappen: I certainly did. I had more attention than any girl you ever heard of up there in your life. Interviewer: Have you ever been back, I mean in recent years? Knappen: Oh, I‟ve gone back and when I married Stuart I was engaged to seven men. Interviewer: My heavens. Knappen: Ya, and I had, the boys down south used to give you a lot of jewelry and I had thirteen rings. Interviewer: My heavens. Knappen: I had the most gorgeous pink pearl and I had all kinds of marquis and emerald cuts and everything you ever heard of. And I had so much jewelry that it was, I didn‟t hold it very dear. I remember giving a girl a sapphire diamond ring to make a blouse for me in a hurry. Interviewer: I see. Did you have to return the jewelry that the boys had given you? Knappen: No. Interviewer: It wasn‟t considered necessary. Knappen: Well I got mad at one lad and threw all is jewelry in the wastebasket but he wouldn‟t take it out. And, but oh, oh I don‟t know, we just all girls had fun(?). And the main thing we used to do was to get a crowd together on our bicycles and ride out to the little town nearby where they had a beautiful dance hall. And well, and we had Cotillions and all kinds of things going constantly, but the most fun was when it snowed once. And we didn‟t have any sleds., One of the boys got a bath tub and he fixed seats across it and we slid in that, two and four and three couples… Interviewer: I see. Knappen: …two and three and four couples in the bathtub, sliding down the hills. And streetcars in my day you know would stop at your front door and they‟d get to know you and you would say stop at my house I want to get off or it‟s stop at my grandfather‟s and you don‟t have to tell ‟em who your grandfather is, they know, by then. Interviewer: How big a town was Memphis in those days? �6 Knappen: Oh it was, we thought it was an awfully big city. And it had a lot of skyscrapers and the one club that my father belonged to was up, way up on a building into the top floor of this building and it had a bar that turned and it would gradually turn all the time and sometimes you‟d see the Mississippi River and sometimes you‟d, you wouldn‟t see it, you know. And we thought that was… Interviewer: That must have been a first. I was out in San Francisco over a week ago and I was in an entire restaurant that revolved on the top of a hotel. Knappen: Well it, it was a club. Interviewer: About, would that be about the turn of the century? Or.. Knappen: No, this was when I was in my twenties. Interviewer: Well, a little after then… Knappen: Well that was, yes, yes. Interviewer: Yeah. Knappen: It wasn‟t too long afterwards. Interviewer: Was Memphis a pretty prosperous town in those days? Knappen: Yes. And when, I remember when my father reached ninety, he lived to be ninetynine, and when he was ninety all the courts in Tennessee convened and they had a Judge Vesey day. And so when they presented him with a gold handled cane and umbrella. And he accepted the umbrella but he told them they ought to give the cane to an old man. And he was ninety on that day. Interviewer: About what year was that? Knappen: Well I don‟t know, he‟s been dead, he was so much older than my mother. Interviewer: Yes, yes. Knappen: I don‟t know. I tell ya, I don‟t know what year it was. But it was after I married Stuart. Interviewer: Oh really? Well that would take it back to maybe… Knappen: I married him in nineteen sixteen and I know that Dad, he must have been … well, about forty years ago. �7 Interviewer: Um huh. So let‟s take that and see if my arithmetic‟s any good. Oh well, I‟m not really that good, he must have been born perhaps right about eighteen thirty or there about. Knappen: Well he was, he went to the Civil war. Interviewer: Yes. thirty years or eighteen forty or somewhere in there any ways. Knappen: Yes. Interviewer: Well, now did you do any traveling as a young person? I mean outside of the South? Knappen: Yes, I went to Europe. Interviewer: Uh huh. Knappen: Just once. Interviewer: Just once? Knappen: Uh huh. Before it was many times after I met Stuart, we traveled a lot. Interviewer: How did you happen to meet Mr. Knappen? Knappen: I came up here to visit Ethel Campau. Interviewer: I see. Was she from, where, how did you happen to know her? Knappen: Well her mother and my mother were sisters. Interviewer: I see, I see. Knappen: And she invited me up here to visit her and we went to Mrs. Waters‟ for a party and Stuart was there. Interviewer: Now who was Ethel Campau‟s husband? Knappen: Denny Campau. Interviewer: Denny Campau. Dennis I presume. Knappen: Yes. Denny Campau and his father, his grandfather was the Campau that came up the river and discovered Grand Rapids. Interviewer: Well he‟s probably a great uncle because I don‟t think Louis Campau had and direct descendents. �8 Knappen: Well… Interviewer: But he had brothers who did. Knappen: Well they must have been his brother‟s. Interviewer: Would he, would he have been an uncle or cousin or Tony Campau Knappen: They were brothers. Interviewer: They were brothers. I see. Well now I can figure that out. Knappen: Yeah. Interviewer: A, so you came up here in about what year to visit a, Ethel? Knappen: I came up here, now you know I never paid any attention to dates. Interviewer: Well. Knappen: Well, a, well it was two years before I married him, still. Interviewer: Did you meet Mr. Knappen when you made your first trip up here, or..? Knappen: Yes, when I came here on a visit. Interviewer: I see. Knappen: A, as I said at that party at Miss Waters and I came back over here several times and by then I was living in Chicago. I had an apartment that was owned by Welch‟s Grape Juice people and it was an awfully nice. It had a velvet swing in the living room that looked out over the lake. And Stuart, I would sit out, Stuart, it was so romantic with that swing you know. And it was fine but then, the night before we were to be married, I changed my mind, and told him I wouldn‟t marry him. And his mother and father and sister Florence, had all arrived in Chicago. And I said I wouldn‟t marry him and Stuart took the night train over to Chicago and talked me back into it. And I remember saying “Oh I can‟t get married now.” And Ethel Campau said “Well you have to because, I‟ve got to live in that town.” Interviewer: Were you married in Chicago? Knappen: Yes, married and I‟ve got a picture of the church. But I didn‟t tell my family that I was getting married. My father came flying up there and took me home, wouldn‟t let me be married and he said I‟d better wait and think it over. And I did, for twenty-four hours. And I don‟t think his mother and father ever knew that I had changed my mind. �9 Interviewer: I see. Well now then you came right back to Grand Rapids after you were married or did you go on a honeymoon at that point? Knappen: …(?) Stuart never forgave me, I don‟t think I had the honeymoon I took him down South to the school where my son, but oh I… Interviewer: Mrs. Knappen, when you moved to Grand Rapids in nineteen sixteen, after your marriage and honeymoon, where did you first live? Knappen: Fountain Street. Interviewer: The house that I know? Knappen: Yes. Interviewer: Between Lafayette and Prospect. Knappen: And now I just came around the corner here. Interviewer: You really haven‟t strayed very far. Knappen: No, I haven‟t. And well that place looks so awful now, on Fountain that I make a point never to go near it, where I have to see it. You know, we kept it up so beautifully inside and out and the outside never was anything special, but only it was neat and well cared for. And we had a beautiful flower garden and fountain and things like that formal rose garden. I belonged to the garden club here, and I was selected to go to New York to World‟s Fair and do a flower arrangement. Which I did, and I got a prize. Interviewer: Was that nineteen thirty-nine I can‟t remember for sure myself. Knappen: I don‟t know, as I tell you, I don‟t know but I went there and did an arrangement all white and Elna Cornelius followed me there the day after I did it and she thought it was very beautiful and it was. If I do say it is, you know. But it was. Interviewer: Can you tell me, do you know who built that house? Knappen: On Fountain? Interviewer: Yes Knappen: The Crosby‟s I think, Jim Crosby. Interviewer: Well, do you mean Mr. and Mrs. James Crosby, Senior? Knappen: Yes �10 Interviewer: I see. So that house must have been built before the turn of the century? Knappen: Oh I think it was. And the Clements lived right across the street from us. That brick house. Interviewer: The Uhl house? Knappen: Yes. Interviewer: Who were the neighbors that you were closest to up in this part of town? Knappen: Well, all of them. Everybody around here knew everybody else. The Dickenson‟s next door, your family, the Judson‟s next doors to them and the Stevens, and then these two square blocks we knew everybody in every house. They were… knew them well. And then the second house… Who lived in the second house on Lafayette catty-corner across from you? Interviewer: The second house? Knappen: The first house was… Interviewer: Campbells? You mean catty-corner from us? Knappen: Yes Interviewer: Well, that was the Wylie house originally. Well not originally but it was for many years. Knappen: The Wylie house. Then next door to the Wylie‟s was… Interviewer: Well, your house? On Fountain… Knappen: Yeah, on Fountain, but I mean on Lafayette. Interviewer: Didn‟t Curtis Wylie build a house right next to the old Wylie house? That Percy Owens eventually lived in? Knappen: Yeah. Interviewer: That‟s the house you are thinking of? Knappen: No the one next to that. Interviewer: Then that was the Holt‟s? John C. Holt‟s Knappen: Yes, the Holts and then the Fullers and the O‟Briens across the street, the Stevens and that funny old man, Mr. Shelby. I‟ll never forget one time in a movie he sat down next to me and �11 he didn‟t know who I was and he started patting my knee, and I reached over and caught hold of him and I said “Hello Mr. Shelby.” And he straightened up and he stopped patting my knees then about that time Interviewer: Did you have any trouble getting used to Grand Rapids? Knappen: Yes, I visited and knew about everybody but then I felt Stuart was trying to freeze me to death the first night I spent in Grand Rapids. It was January you know, and when he opened this great big double window and the snowflakes flew in on me I thought, „What on earth is this man doing to me?‟ It was so cold. And down South we didn‟t have any snow and we didn‟t have any really cold weather. We had one snow, the one I told you about with the bath tub. But I thought the weather up here was just awful. I thought, „How would anyone in their right mind live in this climate?‟ But you know I got so I liked everything about it, especially the fishing. Stuart and I, the first time we took a trip, I thought we‟d be going to Europe and I went down, got all the literature and I found out we were going to fish - fishing. That was funny and it‟s the truth. We rode through the country side, every time we‟d pass a bridge with a little water under it we got out and made camp and fished. Oh I thought it was so terrible. But you know we finally built our own camp and I used to go in the stream twice a day. Interviewer: Where was it? Knappen: It was in Middle Branch as you turned off of Kennedy‟s Corners going up to the Indian Club before you get to Baldwin. We had big iron gates up there. You go in and you have a little drive up to our camp. And we had a deluxe camp, with two men, one white and one black, and a Negro woman cook and when we had guests she‟d meet them at the door with a little tin cup and it‟d say: „Would you give me a donation for the church?‟ And the church donations went into her pocket. We had to give her fits about asking our guests for money before they got their suitcases. Interviewer: You say it was Little Branch River? Knappen: Yes Middle Branch. It‟s a part of the Pere Marquette. We built right on the river where you could look upstream and downstream. The whole front of the place was glass and the whole back. And our living room up there was forty feet and we had heat and had a bar in the basement. Stuart bought a bar from a firm that was going out of business soon. And he even got the brass rail and the spittoons that went into it; and he and his fisherman friends used to have a lot of fun down there. Interviewer: Judging from your description of it so far I take it, it was rather a large [cabin] and did you very often have house guests? Knappen: Oh yes, we could sleep twenty people and we had an upstairs which we never used. From the front it was a one story camp but from the river side it was three stories. The basement you see it was built on a slant. And the bar was in that basement. And then we had this great big living room then, it was paneled with solid wormy chestnut, whatever that was. And we had four bedrooms and three baths on the main floor and in the basement we had that… Isaac was the �12 white man that we had and he would have ice, his refrigerator turned on and ice made every weekend ready for us. And we had a garage for our guests and our own cars. It really was a lovely, lovely place and the pictures, you‟d think it was a hotel in New York but if you got very close you‟d find it wasn‟t at all. Interviewer: How many years did you have it? Knappen: Well we must have had it ten years. Interviewer: Until the late twenties or into the thirties? Knappen: Yes, well Stuart died in thirty-eight and the last time we were there was thirty-seven. I never went back afterwards. Interviewer: Did you have neighbors that you knew nearby? Knappen: Oh, Ed Johnson‟s. They‟re right across the stream around the bend so you couldn‟t see them. But Stuart had a little bridge built there and Ed and Stuart had a telephone line that went nowhere except to each other. And they had a lot of fun; they‟d ring the thing and then say New York‟s calling Mr. Johnson, or Mr. Knappen. And we used to all meet at that bridge in the afternoon to go swimming. And once, Jack McCray was a guest up there when a little garden snake jumped off the bank and into the stream and he shrieked! You‟d thought it was a woman and a mouse. He was so frightened. You know he‟s still living. Interviewer: Somewhere in British Colombia or out in that part of the world isn‟t it? Knappen: Yeah, I‟ve been writing to him for thirty years because he was so nice to Stuart and Jane. He was a funny little fellow. But all these lovely, big men, friends of ours have died and that little tiny thing is still going. Everybody feels so sorry for me because I have to write him. I started it, now I‟ve been writing him for thirty years. Every time I get a lette rout I think now maybe he‟s died, but he hasn‟t. He‟s going strong. Interviewer: Well I know that he came from a family with legal background. His father was Judge Loyal E. Knappen and there may have been other lawyers in the family that I don‟t know about. Knappen: His father was Judge Loyal E. Knappen, was a Court of Appeals and I know he went to Cincinnati twice a month, I mean for two weeks out of each month and when Judge Dennison died Stuart was offered that Court of Appeals position but he couldn‟t afford to take it you know. It only paid something like twelve thousand dollars in those days and we had an expensive family you know. Three girls all in school at one time for instance. And then when Father Knappen died they offered it to Stuart again although they had increased the salary he still couldn‟t take it. But another thing, he didn‟t want to be away from home two weeks out [of every month, we had to go fishing together. He couldn‟t go away for two weeks out of every month in the summer. But he was a president of the Michigan Bar at the time he died. And of course he was president of the Grand Rapids Bar first. And he represented all the, most of the railroads �13 and big concerns like Simmons Hardware and oh I don‟t know. At the time he died I got him these memorials I guess you‟d call them. And some of them were suede, done in suede and some in just paper-back. They‟re very nice. Interviewer: Who were some of his law partners? Knappen: It was Knappen, Uhl, Bryant, and Snow and Upham. And when Stuart died Mr. Snow died shortly afterwards and then it, the firm was Uhl, Bryant and Upham, and somebody else now. Upham and young Bryant Dick Bryant,I don‟t know many others. Interviewer: Were some of these men close friends of Mr. Knappen, in addition to being his partners? Knappen: Oh yes, Marshall Uhl and I guess they all were. Do you remember Snap Bryant? Interviewer: Oh well, I never knew him but I knew his brother and his brother‟s son and one of them I went to boarding school with, so I used to hear about my friend Steve Bryant‟s uncle Snap. But I never, I don‟t remember ever meeting him. I used to hear a lot of stories about him. Knappen: Oh yeah, well this one time Stuart was so mad at him, he was in some other state and he wanted to charge some gasoline to himself and they wouldn‟t charge it to him and he said he was gonna have him put out of business. And the gasoline people called Stuart up and they were quite provoked and Stuart had to explain to them that he had no authority. Oh, I want to tell you something funny though. You know this chauffer of ours, Shakespeare? Well he, they were Negroes of course and he had a brother Beethoven and another one Mathelius. So now Beethoven worked at the Pantlind and he gambled and won some money but he couldn‟t get off his job to collect so he had Shakespeare to go collect it for him. And while he was collecting, the place was raided and so they were arrested. And when they came up for trial, the judge asked their names and when Shakespeare gave his name, Shakespeare and Beethoven, the judge said, “Now you little smarties, I‟ll make an example out of you two young men.” And Stuart had to go over to court and tell that they were their real names. The judge thought that they were just being little smart aleks. I thought it was awfully funny. I was kind of wishing that Shakespeare‟d get arrested, really arrested and stay in because he was so proud of that name and I asked him how did they, the boys get those names? Mathelius and Beethoven and Roosevelt and he said well his old Uncle lived with the family, he didn‟t work and he just sat around and named the children when they came. I thought it was kind of cute. Interviewer: What do you know about the Sam Young family? Seems to me they were quite an interesting family in this neighborhood. Knappen: Yes. They lived across the street from us. And Lola, did you ever know Lola? Interviewer: Yes, I remember Mrs. Young. Knappen: Well she was a character. And old Sam Young couldn‟t talk without spitting you know. He sprayed you every time. They were nice enough. �14 Interviewer: Well I always liked Elvira. Knappen: Oh Elvira, I still like Elvira. She has this little retarded child and at first they wouldn‟t put her anywhere but they have now. She‟s grown up. They‟ve put her in an institution. Alice and John Doban(?) were kind of funny, weren‟t they? Lola wore such peculiar clothes and we all like Lola but we could never laugh at her because she would wear these funny, very fancy shoes and we were all wearing high heels in those days and she was wearing flats, you know. Interviewer: Did both Mrs. and Mr. Young come from the South originally? Knappen: Yes, they came from… I don‟t know where. Interviewer: I think it was North Carolina wasn‟t it? Knappen: I think it was one of the Carolina‟s. Interviewer: Seems to me they had quite a staff over there. Knappen: Yes. Well we had Betsy and Shakespeare and do you remember the Negro man down at the Union Depot in those days? Everybody knew him. That nice old Negro man? Interviewer: I‟m not sure I can, I know which one you‟re talking about. Knappen: Yes, well we had his daughter for the second, her name was Bea, she said it was Beatriz. We just called her Bea. She was the second maid, upstairs maid. And we had three regular servants and Grace Brown came two or three days a week to clean and do laundry. Oh, and I want to tell you what a smart woman I was. I never counted the laundry in and out you know, I paid no attention. And before we got, Betsy that maid we had for twenty odd years, this woman we had was having her whole family and her boyfriend‟s laundry done on my time. You know, Stuart‟s shirts went to the laundry and so did her boyfriend‟s. And once on her day out, the laundry came in and that‟s how I discovered it. Down South you can walk out your kitchen any time and find a couple of colored people sitting there. They just come for a meal, they think it‟s their right, you know. And no questions asked. A cook down there that my mother had, used to play the numbers, and every time I‟d go down to Memphis she‟d get me to play the numbers with her. Do you know what that is? I didn‟t know, I‟d never heard of it before. Interviewer: Do you hear from Mrs. Butterfield from time to time? Knappen: Yes, she lives in some little town, Waverly, Tennessee. And yes she sent me a glass of jelly, the other day and said that I liked it so much. I never heard of it before, but she had me mixed up with a couple of other people. But I didn‟t tell her that. She, I think, oh her mother has died? Interviewer: Yes, she died last summer. There‟s some talk that she might come back to Grand Rapids. �15 Knappen: I know it and I hope she does. Somebody said that she was coming back. Interviewer: It‟s quite interesting that over the years, that especially years ago there were quite a few people came up here from the South or married people from the South. Doctor Van was from the south and Dr. William Wilson down the street. And seems there was quite a group of people here at one point. Knappen: I remember we gave a party for the Wilson‟s when they were first married. And she said at the table that night, she met him when they were in the service. And she said when I was introduced him said “I didn‟t know that he was “the” Mr. “the” Dr. Wilson.” Then Jack McCray said: “What did you mean „the‟ Dr. Wilson?” I could have killed him. Because you know as far as we knew he wasn‟t “the” Dr. Wilson, but a very nice man. I used to go across the street and play bridge with them this last, a year ago. I was going to say before he died, well naturally. Interviewer: Did you know that Elizabeth Stuart Minor and her husband have moved, bought Mrs. McCleod‟s house across the street? Knappen: Yes, they‟re going to have a meeting there on Monday, and my daughter Betty told me about it. They‟ve done quite a bit to that house. You saw the building going on? Interviewer: Well, my sister when she was here about three weeks ago, we went over to see her, and because she and Helen are very close friends. She was naturally interested that Elizabeth had come back to the neighborhood where she got started. Now you, when you did your entertaining, did you do most of it at home or did you go out to other clubs? Knappen: Here you mean or down south? Interviewer: No, in Grand Rapids. Knappen: Oh we did at home, we entertained for the (?) at the country club mostly but there are tea dances and things like that, but no, we used to have as many as seventy people at the house. And we used to have these saw horses with the planks on them put up and tablecloths or and one time I remember we were having this party for around seventy people and the first course was oysters „down the hatch.‟ But we served so many drinks before hand, they forgot to serve the oysters. So the next morning the back porch was just covered with oysters „down the hatch‟ and that was funny. Interviewer: Who were some of the other people that you knew well in those days. Knappen: Up here? INTERVIEWER: Well not necessarily in this neighborhood but around the city here. Knappen: Well I think we knew just about everybody. I can‟t think of anybody we didn‟t know, our age people. The Stevens‟, the Lockwood‟s, the Everett‟s and the Guyhouses(?), nobody �16 wanted to sit by her and I‟d always put her next to Stuart and Stuart would get so he‟d go to the dining room and look around to see where he was. And he‟d change his place and put Guyhouse next to me. We had a lot of fun over that. Interviewer: You must have known the Booth family pretty well. Knappen: The Booth‟s, oh yes and let me see, and trying to think, Dee, Ella?, that family? Interviewer: The Hazeltine girls? Knappen: Yes, the Hazeltine girls. And of course everybody in this neighborhood, we called it Knob Hill in those days. We all knew each other so well, in every house. There wasn‟t a house that we didn‟t know, the Dickinson‟s, and then well we didn‟t know Mr. and Mrs. Stickley so well but Florence we did. And then the Cur and the Hudson‟s and the Curtis‟, different ones, and the Butterfield‟s lived next door here. And the minister Dean Higgins. And the Blodgett‟s used to live in that corner house. Interviewer: Was that Delos Blodgett‟s or the Jack, or the John Blodgett‟s? Knappen: The John Blodgett‟s lived there in that kind of funny stone house. And then were you old enough to go to the party they had out at the new home when the boy was, his bride, the party was given for his bride? Interviewer: That was the first marriage? No I wasn‟t, I wasn‟t old enough but I remember hearing about it later, in later years but I didn‟t go to it. Knappen: I didn‟t know whether you were old enough or not. Interviewer: No there‟s about at least twenty years difference in our ages so. Knappen: Yes, but that was quite a party. I remember a party that Mr. Jack gave out on the lake you know. And he had the whole front yard, every bush and tree had blooms and the lawn, had little tables on the lawn. Interviewer: That‟s Reed‟s Lake? Knappen: Yes, that home on that was such a pretty looking party you know. Interviewer: Not quite apart from your social life and I know there was a great deal of it in this neighborhood in those days, I am old enough to remember… Knappen: Yes. Interviewer: …Did you have some other special interests in Grand Rapids? �17 Knappen: I belonged to the Women‟s… well what‟s now Porter Hills? What was the name of it before? Interviewer: Oh you mean Isabella Home I think. Knappen: Yes, I belonged and Stuart used to die laughing at me because I‟d take those old women and have their hair done and all, and they loved it you know. And I also furnished entertainment for them on Sundays. And I‟d get all my friends that could do anything, sing, play the piano, to go out and entertain the ladies. And I‟d buy them shoes, instead of buying them nice, sensible shoes, I‟d get them pretty fancy shoes. And then I belonged to the Butterworth Hospital‟s Women‟s Board. I got Jack McCray to furnish the Infants Department at the hospital for me, and I got somebody else to give me a big soup kitchen for the hospital. I got all kinds of things. Mrs. Bender was the president, at the time I was on the board. We used to have a lot of fun because I‟d get so much stuff donated. Interviewer: Yes, so you remember some of the other people besides Mrs. [Charles] Bender that worked with you? Knappen: Oh yes. Well Mrs. Blodgett you know. Interviewer: You mean Mrs. Lowe? Knappen: Oh yes Mrs. [Edward] Lowe of course, not Mrs. Blodgett. I don‟t know, did she ever, Mrs. Blodgett never did any kind of work like that, never heard of it. Interviewer: Well she, I think she must have taken an interest in the Blodgett Hospital, I suppose. I don‟t know. Knappen: I don‟t know either. But Mrs. [Edward] Lowe did an awful lot. And I liked Mrs. Lowe, I thought she was a lot of fun. Interviewer: Did you go by her house quite often? Knappen: Oh yes, a great deal go out there. She used to have a lot of Sunday night parties. Interviewer: What did you do during prohibition for liquor? Knappen: Oh boy, what did we do? Well, Bill Wurzburg and a Henry Heel and Stuart and Foster Stevens were all making gin. And I drove an ambulance for the Motor Corps during the war and I‟d hear the people talking and I‟d tell on them to Stuart and the men that they were making gin and what happened to them, the police got them. I was making it up and kidding him and they took me seriously and they poured out all the hard earned gin that they and bought and made and they thought that I mean it. Bill had it all at his house and he, I never told him, they‟d have killed me. How would I know, they should have known I was joking. �18 Interviewer: Was that all you could drink was a home-made or bathtub gin whatever it was called? Knappen: Oh yes but you know father Knappen had a wonderful wine cellar and he poured it all out you know. And Stuart and Stuart‟s brother begged him to let them have it. No he said it was against the law. Just like the cook that caught the little mouse in the kitchen one hot summer day. And she had it, caught it in a trap and she, so she said to mother Knappen, “What‟ll I do with it?” And she said just take it and throw it, bury it in the back yard. Father Knappen said no, you can‟t do that, that‟s against the law to bury animals on the premises. And that hot day he wouldn‟t consider anything. But he went to the basement and built a fire in the furnace to burn up this little mouse. We always thought that was funny. He was a stickler for the law. Interviewer: Was Judge Loyal Knappen born in Grand Rapids or did he come here? Knappen: No, he and Mother Knappen both were born in Hastings. Interviewer: Raised here. And Mr. Knappen, your husband was born in Hastings then? Knappen: Yes, he was born there and he said that one cold winter day. Father Knappen‟s office in those days was upstairs over some place, and they had a stairway with an iron banister and Stuart stuck his tongue on the iron rail and it stuck to it one cold winter day and he couldn‟t get his tongue loose. And he pulled it away, took all the skin off his tongue. Interviewer: Mrs. Knappen, we traditionally think of people from the South as high-brow democrats, could I presume on your friendship to answer my question as to how you vote? Knappen: Well I‟d like to tell you something. My brother John the younger one, worked harder than anybody you ever heard of for the democrats of course and they used to say you couldn‟t get a job in Memphis unless John said so. And the last time Roosevelt ran, you know, was elected of course, my mother called me up on the phone and said, “John got Roosevelt elected again.” She thought it was all her boy‟s doing. Interviewer: Oh, the Knappen‟s were probably Republicans, were they not? Knappen: Oh yes, I just said go with Nixon and I still am mad because they treated him so badly. And I was so glad that he was pardoned. Interviewer: How do you like Mr. [Gerald] Ford? Knappen: I like him But they tell me I like everybody. But how do you like him? I won‟t tell. Interviewer: I tell this to posterity, I like him very much. Knappen: Well so do I. Interviewer: I happen to agree with him on a lot of things… �19 Knappen: I agree with him on everything. Interviewer: …but I think he‟s handled his new office very well and I think he‟s having an awful rough time right now. But I‟ve had occasion to be with him and rather closely know him over a period of years from time to time. And I know he‟s a man of great integrity and complete honesty. Knappen: I don‟t think anybody can doubt that. Interviewer: And I think he‟s much more able then we gave him credit for. I didn‟t come here to talk, you‟re supposed to do the talking. Knappen: No, no, no.But I just was so glad when he pardoned Nixon, and I don‟t care those other men were just jealous. I put it down, I really do, think they persecuted him. What I‟d like to know is why they didn‟t do something to that Edward Kennedy when he drowned that young girl. Interviewer: Well, many people will ask that question for a long time and I‟m sure that if he ever does run for president it would be a… Knappen: Well he better not. I said I was going to have them get out pamphlets and mail them to every state in the Union, because I think he was such a coward. Interviewer: Now the other question that sometimes people think people shouldn‟t discuss and I‟ll just throw it out, I gather you have an association here with the Episcopal Church? Do you remember Saint Mark‟s? And do you know the new rector there. Father Howell? You haven‟t met the new rector? Knappen: Yes, I have. When Laura Blackman died he performed the ceremony and you know now that I have difficulty in walking those steps. Interviewer: Those steps are hard to get up. Knappen: Going up is easier for me than going down, that‟s my excuse. Interviewer: Was your family an Episcopalian family in the South? Knappen: Oh yes, always. And my brother John, the one that remains. He was in the little boy choir as a singer for the time he was a little fellow. And he had a magnificent baritone voice. And he played the piano so beautifully. When he was a little boy, little tiny boy in his nightshirt he used to get out of bed and go sit at the piano and play. Interviewer: What are you going to do on your birthday? �20 Knappen: Well, now let me see. If I‟m lucky I‟ll be doing nothing. If they drag me out, Betty Knappen has gone to Oregon and she came down here, she just left yesterday. Interviewer: Who is Betty? Knappen: Betty Oakland. Betty Knappen married to Paul. Well she came yesterday and brought me a cake that I was to have for my birthday when she said if you have somebody drop in. I have never told anybody when my birthday is because I don‟t want them dropping in making work for me. And not long ago Betty and Cynthia, my grandchild, came here to see me one day and they couldn‟t get in. They knocked on the door and the telephoned and no answer and they thought I was dead. And Cynthia got to crying and she went out in the back and looked in the window, said, She hasn‟t even been to bed, she‟s probably just lying there.” I was out to the county club playing bridge. And they got the police up to break down the door but he wouldn‟t break down the door he went around the back and looked in the window and said that, the fact that everything is neat and clean doesn‟t look like she‟s dead. And he could see from the bathroom in through probably course he couldn‟t see over that but they got a ladder and put up in front and discovered I wasn‟t there. [Recording ends] Interviewer: Do you play in one of those bridge marathons? Knappen: Yes I‟m playing in that again this year. Betty Rango(?) and I won the place three years. Interviewer: Who‟s your partner now? Knappen: G.B. Vanberg(?), she‟s a good player but she plays her cards beautifully but I don‟t think, who am I to just talk about G.B., she‟s supposed to be one of the best. But I don‟t think she always bids so beautifully. Interviewer: Did you play bridge a lot when your husband was living? Knappen: Oh yes, well let me show you something. Can you open that drawer? Interviewer: Yes, here‟s a picture and I don‟t have a date on it, but it‟s a picture from the Grand Rapids Press. A yellow clipping and it shows four people playing bridge. Knappen: They are the Alexander‟s. Interviewer: Now were they from Grand Rapids? Knappen: Yes. Interviewer: I don‟t remember them. �21 Knappen: Well we didn‟t know then either. It started out with the city tournament. And there was, oh I‟ve forgotten how many couples. Interviewer: I‟m going to guess this was taken about nineteen thirty or maybe thirty-one or there abouts because the name Dykhuizen appears as the photographer and I think he was in the photography business along with a Mr. LeClear, and I don‟t think that‟s LeClear either, at about that time. Knappen: This was at the University Club, the last night of it and I just found that stuck in a book. And I used to have all kinds of bridge books, but now I don‟t look in them anymore. Well I‟ve been playing bridge for seventy years, I ought to know a little something about it. But, it changes a lot you know. But I gland through the latest book once in a while to make sure I‟m up on things, that‟s all. Interviewer: Well I think it‟s past the hour of five and I think I‟d better go home. But I must say it‟s been delightful. Knappen: Well it‟s been fun. Interviewer: I‟d sort of like to come back and start over again. Knappen: You just do that. Interviewer: Well, maybe one day we will get together again. Maybe I‟ll think of some other questions to ask you but I want to thank you very, very much for your hospitality and for telling me… Knappen: Oh my goodness, I never offered you a drink. Interviewer: Well, I don‟t think I‟ve got time. I‟ll take a look at the clock and if there is a little time I‟ll take one in a hurry, how‟s that? Knappen: Well, yes you do that. What would you drink? I usually drink scotch. I‟ve got some. Interviewer: And I‟ll close on… Knappen: … but you know what. I don‟t have any ice. Interviewer: That‟s alright, I‟ll be English. Knappen: Oh well, you be English. �22 INDEX B K Bender, Josephine · 18 Blodgett Family · 17, 18 Booth Family · 16 Bryant Family · 13 Bryant, Mr. · 1 Butterfield, Mrs. · 15, 17 Kennedy, Edward (Ted) · 11, 20 Knappen, Judge Loyal E. (Father-in-law) · 13 Knappen, Stuart (Husband) · 1, 5, 7, 8, 9, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19 C Lee, Robert E. · 3 Lockwood Family · 16 Lowe, Mrs. Edward · 18 Campau Family · 7, 8 Campau, Ethel · 9 Clements Family · 10 Crosby, Mr. and Mrs. James · 10 D Dennison, Judge · 13 E Everett Family · 16 F Ford, President Gerald R. · 19 G L M McCray, Jack · 12, 15, 17 Miss Conway‟s Institute · 4 O Oakland, Betty Knappen · 16, 20, 21 R Reed‟s Lake · 17 S Guyhouse Family · 16 Saint Mark‟s Episcopal Church · 20 Shelby, Mr. · 11 Snow, Mr. · 13 H U Hazeltine Family · 16 Holt Family · 11 Uhl, Marshall · 13 University Club · 22 Upham, Mr. · 13 J V Johnson, Ed · 12 Vesey, Judge Marcellus Lauderdale (Father) · 2, 3, 6, 8, 9, 13, 18 Vesey, Kate Shropshire (Mother) · 2, 6, 7, 15, 18, 19 �23 W Y Waters, Mrs. · 7, 8 Wilson, Dr. · 15 Young Family · 14 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2e22ed5052d7dfbcc953fc194c8bc7be.mp3 3da14399df38905c3e507d3428271566 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_42Knappen Title A name given to the resource Knappen, Claire Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Knappen, Claire Description An account of the resource Claire Vesey was born in 1880 in Memphis, Tennessee. She married Stuart Knappen in 1916. Stuart was part of a law firm in Grand Rapids and president of the Michigan Bar Association. Mrs. Knappen was a member of the Flower Garden Club and was on the Butterworth Hospital Women's Board. She died in 1982. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1974 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/75b7238857724d60ab0643af37325a8d.pdf 37c0115e6350f6dc2293113de2d007ea PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mrs. Earle Clements Interviewed on October 21, 1974 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape # 41 (46:06) Biographical Information Mrs. Clements was born Nellie Dorothy Calder in Chicago, Illinois on 12 August 1893. She was the daughter of Robert Gillon Calder and Emma C. Bluthardt. Her father, Robert Calder was born 16 October 1858 in Bathgate, Scotland and died 29 January 1946 in Grand Rapids. He was buried in Graceland Cemetery in Chicago. Her mother, Emma Bluthardt was born 27 December 1863 in St. Louis, Missouri and died in 26 December 1929 in Grand Rapids. Robert and Emma were married on 24 November 1886 in Chicago. At the time of Robert Calder's burial, the remains of Emma and daughter Marjorie Calder were removed from Graceland Mausoleum in Grand Rapids and re-interred in Graceland Cemetery in Chicago, Illinois. Nellie Calder was married in Grand Rapids on 2 May 1914 to Earle Arthur Clements, the son of Eilert Alfred Clements and Julia Jenssen. Earle was born in Niles, Michigan on 19 June 1891 and died on 18 January 1972. His father, Eilert Clements was born about July 1864 in Norway and died on 12 May 1934 in Grand Rapids. His mother Julia whom Eilert married in Chicago 7 September 1889 was born about July 1870 in Trondheim, Norway and died in Grand Rapids 20 November 1942. __________ Interviewer: Residence of Mrs. Earle Clements at twenty-five oh-six Normandy Drive, Grand Rapids, Michigan. Mrs. Clements had kindly consented to be interviewed and I‟m going to start by asking her a few questions about where she was born and her parents and her grandparents. Mrs. Clements: Well I was born in Chicago, Illinois on August twelfth eighteen ninety-three and moved to Grand Rapids when I was eleven years old. My parents, my father was born in Bathgate, Scotland, not far from Edinburgh and mother was born in St. Louis, Missouri. Her parents, they had come from Germany. Interviewer: I don‟t think we really need to hand this back and forth, actually we can just… I‟ll just hold it and watch the dial here. Now when did you come to Grand Rapids Mrs. Clements? Mrs. Clements: In nineteen, in nineteen four. Interviewer: I see and what was your father‟s, line of work? �2 Mrs. Clements: Well he was he was with the old Nelson-Matter Furniture Company and Michigan Chair Company. Stayed with them until they went out of business, and then he went to Johnson-Handley for a good many years - great many years. Interviewer: Had he worked in Chicago for the Nelson-Matter Company? Mrs. Clements: Yes, and in those days he commuted when there were no, there were no, furniture markets in Grand Rapids at the time and so whenever he would have a customer from the West Coast why, he would bring him to Grand Rapids to see the show rooms and finally, I think they decided that it would be better if he lived right here and so we moved over in nineteen four which was quite a, father was accustomed to Grand Rapids and had been a member, a nonresident member of Kent County Club and all and so he, he felt that he fitted in. But Mother had a, quite a time adjusting because Chicago was so far advanced over Grand Rapids in those days that it was pretty difficult. And I was thinking this morning when I was expecting Lee, I remembered when we took, we rented the house on Cherry Street between College and Paris Avenue and lived there for… until after I was married; and I remembered so well that Marshall Fields did all the decorating, the rugs and the draperies and the wall papers and all for Mother in Chicago because there was nothing available here that she had, that she could find out about anyway. And a, I remember when we‟d go back to visit we‟d come home on the train laden with English muffins and cream puffs and all the things we couldn‟t get in Grand Rapids to bring back for treats. It was, of course there were very little ready to wear clothing made in those days. Most everything was made in the homes or by dress makers and it was it was a very different life. When you went back to Chicago, everything was available and it took Grand Rapids quite a few years to catch up. Today I think our markets are as good as almost anyone. Interviewer: Is the house still standing that…? Mrs. Clements: No, they tore that down within the last ten years. The house was an old, old one. Dr. Lilly, I think, had built it originally and I think it was a fifty years old when we moved into it. And it deteriorated badly after we left and it was made into kind of a, well, it wasn‟t a rooming house, but kind of flats. They, I know that my bedroom and bathroom were one apartment and they divided the whole place up in that way; and it was deteriorating so badly that in spite of the nostalgia, I was glad to see it torn down. I hated to, to have it go to pieces in front of us. And that‟s where the doctors buildings are built today. [516 (430) Cherry Street] Interviewer: I see Mrs. Clements: It‟s that whole block between Paris and College. Interviewer: Paris, Paris and College. You probably knew my great Aunt, Mrs. Charles Wilson. Mrs. Clements: Next door, yes. Interviewer: Right around the corner on College. �3 Mrs. Clements: And you had a father down the block on College. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Clements: And College Avenue was a wonderful, wonderful neighborhood in those days. So many, many of our friends who are still friends, lived in that block and the block toward, toward Fountain, or toward Fulton I mean. Interviewer: When, when did your family decide to move? In what, what year do you remember? Mrs. Clements: I came to move here? Interviewer: No I mean you moved out of that house. Mrs. Clements: Out of that house? Yes, I was married in nineteen fourteen and I think they moved out about twenty-one. [In 1922, the Robert G. Calders lived at 122 Union SE] Interviewer: I see. Did you have any brothers or sisters? Mrs. Clements: I had a sister. Interviewer: I see. Was she younger or older? Mrs. Clements: Younger, younger. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: And it was interesting in those days. When you speak of a younger sister I always think because there was nothing from, from the corner of College Avenue, College Avenue was built up just Morris Avenue was just being opened up; and the, the Frank Deans had the only house on Morris Avenue, in the middle of the block there was nothing else. And there was a little path, it wasn‟t wider than two feet, worn, foot-path that we used to go to school, to Wealthy Avenue School from our house. And we‟d cut across, straight across from the corner of College and Cherry through Morris and over to the corner of Madison and Wealthy. Right through there were, there weren‟t woods but there were undergrowth. Interviewer: Was there a school on that corner? Mrs. Clements: Where, where Vanderbilt [Vandenberg] school is today, was old Wealthy Avenue Street School. Interviewer: Vanderbilt? [Vandenberg], not… Mrs. Clements: On Mad… on Lafayette and Wealthy. Interviewer: Lafayette and Wealthy. I see. �4 Mrs. Clements: Yeah and that was the old Wealthy Avenue school. I have some pictures of that in my scrap-book of the old school. Interviewer: Do you remember some of your classmates of…? Mrs. Clements: Oh yes, there were; all that College Avenue crowd. Interviewer: I see. Who were you‟re special friends? Mrs. Clements: Well, Mary Murray and Olive Maddox and, you should have given me a little warning. Interviewer: That‟s alright. Mrs. Clements: A, Ali, what was her name, Snow? You know... Interviewer: I think I do know, is that, Mills or… Mrs. Clements: Yes. Interviewer: Didn‟t they call her Nifty Mills? Mrs. Clements: Nifty Mills. Interviewer: She was a sort of a relative of mine. Mrs. Clements: Oh was she? Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Clements: She was a good friend and a, Mary Fisher and there were, there were a great many awfully nice people that were there. Interviewer: Can you remember your teacher at all? Mrs. Clements: Yes, Miss Keck particularly. Interviewer: Miss Keck? Mrs. Clements: And she was the principal. Interviewer: Is that K-E-C-K, K-E-C-K? Miss Clements: K-E-C-K and, that was interesting because I had gone to a little private school in Chicago, and had never been in a public school and Mother was very doubtful about this and the school was not up to our standards of today. The toilet room for instance, was a big room with a board with holes in it and that we all sat in and no heat down there. I can remember it very vividly. But Miss Keck, we moved in September and, school had started a few days before and �5 so when Mother took us to school, Miss Keck took [me] up under her wing and took us to our teachers and got us started. And she was wonderful to us there and helped us adjust to a new environment and years later when I was President of the Women‟s City Club I followed her; she had been president before me and then I came and that was quite a jump from a principal and a little girl to two ex-presidents together. Interviewer: Really. Did you go, did you as many of your age group, did you go on to Central High School? Miss Clements: No, I went to Miss Moffat‟s School. Interviewer: Miss Moffat‟s School? Mrs. Clements: In a private, in a private school. Interviewer: Now where was that located? Mrs. Clements: Well on Jefferson, down near Wealthy. Interviewer: Um hum. Mrs. Clements: And I went from, from Wealthy Avenue Street, to Central Grammar which was where Junior College was, is. Interviewer: Yeah Mrs. Clements: And finished the seventh and eighth grades there and then instead of going to Central High School, I went to Miss Moffat‟s for four years. Interviewer: For four years? Mrs. Clements: Then went east to School. Interviewer: Where did you go after, after you left Miss Moffat‟s? Mrs. Clements: I went to Spence in New York City. Interviewer: I see, how long were you there? Mrs. Clements: Just a year. Interviewer: Now that would bring you up to just about what year? Mrs. Clements: Nineteen thirteen Interviewer: Nineteen thirteen? And you said you were married in nineteen fourteen, I believe. Mrs. Clements: Um Hum. �6 Interviewer: How did you meet Mr. Clements or… Mrs. Clements: I met him on a sleigh ride, originally, and, and then I didn‟t see him for a year or so afterwards and then we were pulled together again and we were married in nineteen fourteen. Interviewer: And what was he doing at that point? Mrs. Clements: Well he was in, in, he was with the Globe Knitting Works; his fatherwas the head of that. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: And, he was with that for a great many years and, and was superintendant until he left and he left, left later on to establish a knitting department down in Tennessee for a big concern. Interviewer: Was the Globe Knitting Works or Globe Knitting Company, I‟m not sure of the correct name. Mrs. Clements: Works. Interviewer: Works, was that a family owned business? Mrs. Clements: Mr. Clements, and Mr. Liesveld, that was Herman Liesveld; and I suppose there were others have had some stock in it but those two had the… Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: …controlling interest. And they, they, they were, that went on until after Mr. Clements‟ death and then Roy Clements became president of it and then it was sold, oh in the forties I guess or fifties I‟m not sure. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: To some eastern concern and they liquidated it. Which was too bad because today even people come up to me and say, “Oh Mrs. Clements, I remember your husband so well. I worked at the Globe for so long and then there was no place for us.” And there wasn‟t, Because all those people who had been trained they had hundreds of employees, maybe five hundred and, they had been trained along that line and there was nothing around here in any little town or anywhere else that they could get employment, you know? And a lot of them were older that couldn‟t start to learn a new trade and it was rather disastrous. Interviewer: Yes, I can see. Do you suppose it was the Depression, or was it just they… Mrs. Clements: Well I think the Depression, I know that Mr. Clements, when he first left, he had planned to go into the hosiery business in Belding and it with the financing through the �7 Depression it was, the banks closed and there were, it just stopped everything, and so that fell through. And then later on he went to Tennessee, just as a temper…, temporary thing, I mean, we never really expected to just stay there the rest of our lives but it was fine opportunity to do something. Interviewer: Now, were, were your, was your husband, were your husband‟s parents natives of Grand Rapids or did…? Mrs. Clements: No, they both came from Norway. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: They came from Norway and they met in Chicago. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: Which was interesting. Interviewer: And when did they come to Grand Rapids? Mrs. Clements: They, my husband was born in Niles and they were there first and I think I‟m sure that Roy Clements was born in Grand Rapids, so that would have been about ninety-three, eighty-three, ninety-three, ninety-three. Interviewer: Ninety-three. Mrs. Clements: Yes. Interviewer: Was that when Mr. Roy Clements was born? Mrs. Clements: Um hum. Interviewer: I see, and then they came up to Grand Rapids somewhere just prior to that then? Mrs. Clements: Um hum. And they lived over on the west side, and I think they were driven out of the west side by the Big Flood [1904]. Interviewer: Oh yes. Mrs. Clements: And then they moved over to this side. Interviewer: Where did they live when they came to this side of the river? Mrs. Clements: Well they lived on College Avenue when I first knew them. Interviewer: I see. �8 Mrs. Clements: Down near Franklin and then they moved into the, the big house on Fountain Street, just two doors from you, you know the, the, what was the name of the people that lived at the corner across from you? Interviewer: Well, Mrs. McKnight and… Mrs. Clements: No, the other way, going up Fountain Street. Interviewer: Well, the, in the old days of course, Curtis Wiley‟s parents lived there for a while. Mrs. Clements: No, I mean the little house, the one story house. She was, she married Ted Booth. Interviewer: Oh the Earles, oh yes. Mrs. Clements: The Earles house then… Interviewer: Which is gone. Mrs. Clements: And then the Clements‟. Yes the Clements‟ house was gone too. Interviewer: I see. I thought the [Edwin F.] Uhl House was right there, Mrs. Clements: Well it was the Uhl house. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: Was the Uhl House. Interviewer: They moved into what had been the Uhl House. Mrs. Clements: What had been the Uhl house and they lived there for oh, until the family was all gone, then they took the smaller place. Interviewer: I see. Where did your husband go to College? Mrs. Clements: He went to Howe Military School. Interviewer: He to Howe Military School? And what is your education with Mr. Grover Good? I know there‟s some tie in there. Mrs. Clements: He was, he was married to Mr. Clements‟s sister. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: For a while, before… Interviewer: He, he was also in, in the knitting works was he not? �9 Mrs. Clements: Well he was brought here when he married Nora. Interviewer: Wasn‟t he the head master of Howe or, I knew he had some a… Mrs. Clements: Uh huh. Interviewer: He was, yeah. Mrs. Clements: But I don‟t know if you want all of this. Interviewer: Well we don‟t have to know all about everything. Let‟s just stop for a moment. I‟d thought I‟d like to ask you a little about the social life of the period when you were married and what, what, what did people, young married people do in those days? Mrs. Clements: Awful lot of dancing, awful lot of dancing, and we had a very good theatre. The, the New York plays came on, you know, Powers theatre was, was wonderful. We went a great deal, and there was a great deal of entertaining and very formal entertaining, very lovely entertaining. I was thinking the other say in connection with the Voigt house. I remember a big reception there, and today it would be fun to go back and see how they, how they‟re doing what they did in those days, but it was so very formal, and very, very lovely. Beautifully done. Interviewer: Who were some of the other people who entertained in a rather elaborate fashion? Mrs. Clements: Well, the, Robert Irwins and the Booths and, and oh I don‟t know, a lot of Mother‟s friends that did a great deal of entertaining, and very formal. Mother used to, had such, wore such beautiful clothes and, I wish I had them. I wish I had saved them for a museum today some of them. But, she would have a brougham brought around maybe once, or every other week or something like that and then go very formally calling all afternoon you know and, and on people who had entertained her and so forth and who had been kind to her moving to Grand Rapids and all. And it was very formal, with beautiful hats and all the ermine scarves the, all the lovely things that they wore. I, it, when I see my grandchild today I, I wonder what my mother would say. Interviewer: Did they have the dressmakers, is that where the clothes came from? Is…? Mrs. Clements: Yes, well, I remember was a wonderful tailor here, a man‟s tailor who also did women‟s clothes, and he made Mother some beautiful things. And the, the suits, I remember, a light blue broadcloth suit that went to the floor, long, afternoon suit you know and very formal, very dressy and very impractical. But you see there were no automobiles at all, and we‟d walk from, had to walk to school, where I went to Central Grammar, we not only walked up and back we came home at lunch. Interviewer: I see. �10 Mrs. Clements: And today when I can hardly wobble around well, why I think back at those walks and wonder how I ever did it. But they, the street-car of course ran up Cherry Street and then if you wanted to go downtown you were fine but to go visit anybody who lived over beyond Fulton or up on Fountain, there was no way of getting there. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: And we used to go out to Fran Russell‟s house for his ball-room for parties and we would take the bus and then we would have to transfer and take the old, little old Carrier street-car to get up to the country club, get up that way. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Clements: You know, to his house and all. Interviewer: Yes. Uh huh. That was pretty much out in the country in those days. Mrs. Clements: Oh, very far. We‟d carry our dancing slippers in a bag, you know, go in boots. I got boots, lace shoes I guess. Interviewer: Oh, I think the entertaining, in that family went on, right up through Janet‟s, teens or at least almost into her teens. Mrs. Clements: Oh, Mrs. Russell was wonderful. She was always open-housed. It was just wonderful. No matter what you wanted to go you could always go there. And we had many a good time. Interviewer: You spoke of dancing, were, was this usually in people‟s homes, like at the Russells for instance, or..? Mrs. Clements: Well, a great deal, but then they had, we had a lot of dances; there were a lot of, of charity dances and all. Interviewer: Where did they take place? Mrs. Clements: Well, now for instance one, I remember so well a woman‟s board entertainment that they had up in the, in the Press building. And then the first, when the Press building was first built there was a big dance, a big floor up on the top floor. And we had a wonderful party up there. With living models and, all the prettiest girls in town modeling, you know. And then they, then there was a dance floor on top of the Regent Theatre which is gone now. And we had, and I remember that the Junior League had a big dance up there. And there were, the Saint Cecilia of course was always available. Interviewer: Were you ever in any of Miss Calla Travis‟ classes? Mrs. Clements: Oh, yes, yes. I and my daughter and my granddaughter. �11 Interviewer: In what way was your life affected by the First World War? Mrs. Clements: Well, we‟ve been watching those pictures, the World at War, which of course is the Second World War but, of course we didn‟t have radio, we didn‟t have television. We had newspapers and extra-papers that were out about every hour of the day, you know, the boys yelling the news. Interviewer: Uh hum. Mrs. Clements: And, but we didn‟t visualize it the way we do today. I mean, you have Vietnam right in your dining room while you‟re having dinner every night and I don‟t know that, we read about it, of course. I was married in four in fourteen and my first baby was born in fifteen and the other one in seventeen so I was awfully busy with babies; and I wasn‟t as active. My mother and mother-in-law were both very active in Red-Cross work. But I didn‟t, couldn‟t „cause I had a handicapped child that I had to stay home with, and I don‟t think, I don‟t think it sank in, I was too young, and I, when I look back at it, I think maybe that‟s what‟s the matter with the young people today. I doesn‟t really, they don‟t really understand what‟s happening. We‟ve watched those pictures the last few Sunday‟s and we never visualized the war as it really was. It was so, so much worse. Interviewer: I think there was a great deal of a rather fervent patriotism. Mrs. Clements: Oh yes and, and, everybody was for it and everybody was together and singing all the patriotic songs you know and all. And there was a great deal of, oh and when the war was over the excitement was just terrific. Everybody swarmed downtown and so excited, and today we all take it with such apathy, we‟ve seen it all before. And it was that First World War but of course we had such high hopes it was going to end wars but when the Second World War came it disillusioned us so and was so much more dreadful. It‟s been hard to have much hope for the world since then. Interviewer: I want to go back and ask you to recollect a little bit about early automobiles. And Michigan of course is the Automobile state, or at least it still is to a very large extent, and you mentioned that you didn‟t have automobiles when you were small and didn‟t, weren‟t all, not around and you relied largely on street-cars for any long distances. Mrs. Clements: When I was in Chicago as a little girl, I can remember just before I left Chicago, riding in my first automobile. And that was kind of what they called the buckboard; just two seats with the board over the transmission up to the back. Interviewer: Uh huh. Mrs. Clements: And the, when I went back, maybe three years later, I probably don‟t think I was in Chicago again for three years, that interval, why, there were a great many automobiles in Chicago; and electric automobiles that some of my friends had. But in Grand Rapids there were �12 very few. The Welshes had a car and the Mac, MacCardners had a car and a few people. And very often they would take us for a ride on a Sunday or they would take us to the Country Club or there was something like that. But there were very few cars in Grand Rapids. Interviewer: Do you remember when you first, when they first began to become more prevalent, about what time would you say that, can you date it, when, when cars began to be fairly common? Mrs. Clements: Well, after the war. Interviewer: After the war? The nicest there was to be. Mrs. Clements: After the war. And I know my husband took an old Franklin and we modeled it into a Roadster and we thought it was just the ultra thing. And today even when you see a picture of it, it was awfully funny. Interviewer: Was that your first car? Mrs. Clements: That was our first car, personally. But of course his family had had cars. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: My father never had a car, he never learned to drive. Interviewer: Uh huh. Mrs. Clements: But the Clements had them almost from the beginning. But I drove for a great many years and then was having difficulty with neuralgia and I stopped. And I haven‟t driven for a quite a few years. So I‟m dependant on my daughter now. Interviewer: Surely. We, we‟ve mentioned, or you have mentioned on one of two occasions, in the course of this interview, Kent County Club. Can you tell us a little bit about what it was like in those days? Mrs. Clements: Very much like it is today. Just as lovely. It‟s never, it‟s never let go of that first feeling that you had there. It was just the nicest place there was to be. And of course the new building is, I think, ultimately, the ultimate. It‟s just perfect. But it was a lovely place and in those days we used it more for family groups, I think then they do [now]. Of course the prices weren‟t so high. But I mean, Fourth of July, New Year‟s Day, Easter, all the different holidays, we always were there for dinner, with the whole family. Interviewer: Uh hum. Surely Mrs. Clements: And fire-crackers on the Fourth of July. We sat on the veranda and watched and they had them down at the last hole there. And I have always loved it. �13 Interviewer: Well, it‟s quite an institution, goes back, I think into the nineties. I guess you probably know it was out originally where Mr. Bissell‟s house… Mrs. Clements: Well Mr. Bissell‟s house was the club house and where we built our house on the corner of Plymouth and Lake Drive was the first tee. Interviewer: I see, what‟s the, what‟s the address on Plymouth? Mrs. Clements: Five fifty-one. Interviewer: Five fifty-one? Mrs. Clements: Where Cath and Widwordy. [Cath and Woodrick?] Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: We built that house in about twenty-two , twenty-two I think it was. Interviewer: Where had you lived when you were first married? Mrs. Clements: First in an apartment on Paris Avenue. And then on Byron Street we bought a little new house after the war that was very modern, we thought, and we lived there for quite a few years and then moved, then built the house on Plymouth Road until we went to Tennessee. Interviewer: That‟s quite a beautiful house. Mrs. Clements: Well it was. It was wonderful for the family. It‟d be much too big today. But it was perfect in its day. Interviewer: I believe that one of the things that you could call an accomplishment or distinction at least, is that you were the first president of the Junior League, is that not true? And would you tell us how, about some of the other people who were associated with you in that, and whence it came? Mrs. Clements: Well, there was, there was an old guild called the Butterfly Guild of Butterworth Hospital and we took care of maternity cases and we sewed for the nurse, nursery and made curtains for the rooms and things like that. And one day one of the, one of my friends said, “Nellie, why don‟t you apply for membership in the Junior League?” And she told me a little bit about it and then Chuck Palmer‟s wife, Laura Palmer was here one day and she was a member of the Junior League of Atlanta and I invited her to my house on Plymouth Road when we‟re having a meeting to tell us about it. And the girls were all quite inspired and we all thought well, it‟d be a good idea. Well, a couple, maybe a month or so later I happened to be on the train going to New York with my husband and I thought this would be a good chance for me to go and see about that. So, without any authorization, I just went in, made an appointment and the AJLA was just being originated and the New York League of course was a going concern but the AJLA was �14 just, that‟s the Association for the Junior League of America. They had a roll-top desk, and old oak roll-top desk in one corner of the New York Junior League‟s Office and that office was upstairs in the, what do you call, not the Chauffer but the horse driver, where the horses, in the carriage shop. Interviewer: Coachman. Mrs. Clements: The coachman‟s quarters. Up in, in can old carriage house over, oh I think it must have been in the thirties over maybe past Madison Avenue and down in the thirties over there. I don‟t remember just exactly where it was. Anyway, I made, made an appointment and went over there. And they gave me all kinds of papers and a skeleton constitution to work on and so forth and I brought it back to Grand Rapids and we got to work. And Jo Bender and Dorothy Wilcox and I drew up the articles of the constitution and so forth. And within a year, we were admitted to the League, to the AJLA. Well in those days you, the retirement age of forty, which still exists, we had quite a time, because so many of our members didn‟t want to admit to being forty. And we had one family of three daughters who had the most remarkable mother because they all were within nine months of each other on the records. Well anyway that was all straightened out and then we were allowed to transfer some of our members who had been members in Grand Rapids to the leagues where they were then. Well we had a little difficulty with one of those. One league didn‟t want a certain girl. We had quite a time. But all those things were, they were details, but interesting. And then we worked out the, we divided the League into teams and we used the hour system, that they had to do a certain number of hours and all that. I don‟t believe that they‟d be able to put those rules into effect today. Nobody‟d pay any attention. But in those days everybody took them very seriously. And we were doing this maternity work at Butterworth of trying to encourage mothers to have their babies in the hospital. Today we‟re reversing the thing and wanting them in their rooms with their family around and all that. Well, in those days, there were very few admittances in the maternity department. And they, the doctors were urging it because it made it so much easier for them to do it at the hospital than at home. And we started that, we had a fund for the maternity fund and when we went into the Junior League we had to break our connections with Butterworth, which broke Mrs. Lowe‟s heart. I didn‟t think she was ever going to talk to me again, but she did. And we severed the relations and we turned over the money to Butterworth, it‟s now the Butterfly Guild Fund of the Junior League, or something like that anyway, at Butterworth. Then we went into taking care of part-pay patients. People who didn‟t feel they could afford to go to the hospital. And when they were referred by the physician as worthy and needing, we wools send a committee to investigate and refer back to our committee for affirmation and we took care of a great many mothers. Well that went on until medi…, until Social Security came in. (That isn‟t right). Interviewer: Well it went on for some time? Mrs. Clements: Yes. And when it was taken over you see, so that it wasn‟t necessary anymore, and now the guild is in such diverse agencies, they‟re doing, they‟re just overwhelming. I can‟t, I �15 read their reports and I just can‟t believe all the things that they‟re doing. They‟re doing a simply magnificent job. Interviewer: What year was the League founded actually, in Grand Rapids? Mrs. Clements: In twenty-four. Interviewer: And how long were you president? Mrs. Clements: Well I was president of the Butterfly Guild for two years and then two years of the Junior League so four, really four years there. Interviewer: Who succeeded you as president? Mrs. Clements: Florence Steele… Interviewer: Mrs. Steele? Mrs. Clements: …and then Jo Bender. Interviewer: Uh huh. Mrs. Clements: And we three were the ones who signed the articles of incorporation. Interviewer: You also spoke of, of having been a past president of the Women‟s City Club. Which I believe has just celebrated its Fiftieth Anniversary. When were you president of that, Mrs. Clements? Mrs. Clements: In thirty, nineteen thirty-one to thirty-three, thirty-one to thirty-three. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: I don‟t know if it was thirty Interviewer: Well that‟s close enough. Mrs. Clements: Thirty to thirty-two I guess it was. Interviewer: Was [it] in the present building at that, by that time? Mrs. Clements: Yes, yes they just moved in shortly before. Interviewer: Where were they before that? Mrs. Clements: Down in that little building on, across from Rood‟s on that little side street, Park Avenue. It‟s been torn down, it was an old building, I think… Interviewer: Is that the Godfrey house? �16 Mrs. Clements: Yes, yes. The old Godfrey house. Interviewer: Yeah. Mrs. Clements: Next to the Godfrey house, yes. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: And that, it owned by Dr. Barth and he leased it to us and they built a big dining room there to make facilities there available and they stayed there for two or three years and that‟s when Estelle Wolf was a manager down there. And then they bought the property which is the old Sweet house, first mayor of Grand Rapids. And Mrs. Waters and Mrs. Noyes Avery were the two who remodeled that and planned it all and gave a great deal for, toward it. And Mrs. Bowen was the first president of the Women‟s City Club and then Mrs. Hen, Mrs. Russ Hendricks and Miss Keck and then Mrs. Dudley Waters and then I; and then Mrs. Warner and Mrs. Avery. So you have all those original people. Interviewer: Yeah. Mrs. Clements: Although I wasn‟t in on the start of it because I was so involved with the Junior League in those days that I didn‟t think I was ever going to need it. But within a year of joining why I was Activities chairman and then vice-president and then president. They kept me going. But of course my, well I wouldn‟t say my, I think the Junior League is my first love causes I really have been so proud of that achievement; but the thing that, the place that I have really worked the longest is Butterworth Hospital. And that, I started when I first, when I was about twelve years old when I first came to Grand Rapids. Mrs. Millard Palmer was our neighbor, just two doors down Paris Avenue. And she started a little group of Golden Rule Girls. And we set out to earn a child‟s wheelchair which they didn‟t have in the hospital and it was to cost twentyfive dollars. And we worked, we made molasses candy, and we made pot-holders and we worked our little heads off to earn that twenty-five dollars. And while we were, just before we got to our peak, my Aunt from St. Louis came on. She was so intrigued with it and she said, “Well if you girls earn the twenty-five dollars I‟ll give you another twenty-five dollars so you can buy two wheelchairs.” So that started that, and from then on Mrs. Palmer was, Mrs. Palmer was on the board of Butterworth and she, I think, was instrumental in asking, getting me to go on that board; and I went, I have been on the board now fifty-two years. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: I‟m an honorary member now and I don‟t go very often but I‟m still just as interested. Interviewer: When you were, when you first as a, as a child, when you were twelve years old, what was Butterworth Hospital called and where was it located? �17 Mrs. Clements: It was where the nurse‟s home is today. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: And there were three little cottages that ran down through the park there, little wooden frame houses. And one was for medical care, I think and one was the obstetrical care and I‟ve forgotten what the third one was. But they had, we had all those mothers and babies in that little wooden frame house. And in those days if you got out of bed before two weeks you were going to die you know, you weren‟t allowed out of bed. And it was upstairs and the delivery room was downstairs and they carried you down those little rickety steps to the delivery room and back up. And the babies were left downstairs in cribs, a long row of cribs attached to each other. And many a night I lay awake thinking what would happen if they had a fire in that place. And it was great relief when that was discontinued. Interviewer: Was it called Butterworth Hospital then? Mrs. Clements: Um Hum. Interviewer: I think it was originally St. Mark‟s Hospital. Mrs. Clements: Well that was before Interviewer: An outgrowth. Mrs. Clements: Yes, that was, that was down on Jefferson, I think, or Sheldon. Interviewer: Well, I‟m not sure. Mrs. Clements: It started down there. And, but then when it was there where the Nurses‟ home is today then Mr. Lowe gave the property where it is today, and with the stipulation that the city match the funds, and he would give a million dollars if they matched it. I think that a million dollars is right. And they raised that money and built the original hospital. And it was built with those two wings going out this way to the west and the straight building and then there were supposed to be two more wings out here. Well, after it was working, I think it was Dr. Rags…, during Dr. [L. V.] Ragsdale‟s time when they decided they had to build an addition. And they found that that was so impractical that nursing stations couldn‟t see these four ends you see, they couldn‟t control it and it meant nursing stations at both ends. And so then they built it with that long extension out to the west to facilitate the nursing end of it. I have always said it looks kind of like a boiler factory because it‟s got so many partitions and things. And it was a beautiful building when it started. Interviewer: I want to stop for a second and make sure that we‟re recording; I think we are but I just want to be on the safe side. Well, we were, are still recording apparently. Did you have any other interests besides the hospital, the Junior League, the Women‟s City Club? Any other club interests or philanthropic interests? �18 Mrs. Clements? Well I was a member of the Junior Diet Kitchen Guild of Butterworth for a good many years and in those years we started the theatre trains. And those were very successful and were lots of fun. A great many people enjoyed them. But that guild had been disbanded because everybody was too old to work anymore. Interviewer: I see. I know that you attend Grace Church, here in Grand Rapids. Have you always been a member of Grace Church? Mrs. Clements: No not until about nineteen fifty-six. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: My parents were not members and there was a little division of ideas there and I waited until they were gone, and then I joined. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: I‟d always gone to Grace Church for Sunday school and for when I wanted to go to church but I wasn‟t a very regular member but today I get a great deal out of it. Interviewer: Well… let‟s stop for a minute. I‟d like to ask you some questions about the people that you and Mr. Clements knew the best over the years. Can you give me and idea of some of the, of the families, couples, individuals that you got to know very well? Mrs. Clements: Well the, the Bill Steeles I guess would top the list of my favorites. And the Harvey Clays, and the Fosterhouses(?), Paul and Megan, Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Clements: And the, you want couples, don‟t you? Interviewer: Not necessarily, no. Mrs. Clements: Well, Jo Bender of course has always been such a good friend and Jeannette Warner and Esther Booth and then the Admiral Brouwers, and the Walter Palmers and oh, there‟s so many of them. Interviewer: I heard that Nancy‟s moved back to Grand Rapids. Mrs. Clements: Right here in the building, in the next building. Interviewer: Yeah. You should have gone on that trip, last week to Ann Arbor to... Mrs. Clements: I didn‟t think I was quite up to it. I‟m better sitting still. Interviewer: I see. �19 Mrs. Clements: Nellie [her daughter] said that was a lovely occasion and she enjoyed it thoroughly. I was sorry not to have gone. Interviewer: Yes, it was very well done. I want to ask you a little bit about downtown Grand Rapids, when you were young. Do you remember any particular stores where you like to shop? Mrs. Clements: Well Spring‟s, what was it? Interviewer: Friedman-Spring‟s? Mrs. Clements: Friedman-Spring‟s was the nicest shop in those days and they really, they really did a thing. Of course Foster Stevens was a forerunner of Rood‟s, they were a wonderful shop. And then there were lovely dress-shops when they came in, the gown shop and the, that one up on the corner of Fulton and LaGrave. Miss… Interviewer: I can‟t tell you. Mrs. Clements: Oh, there were some really very, very nice shops, after clothes became well made and available. Interviewer: So you didn‟t really have to shop in Chicago anymore? Mrs. Clements: No, you, no. I think today that you can do almost as well here, right here as you can, you get into New York or Chicago, and you don‟t see a thing you haven‟t seen here nowadays. Perhaps more quantity but I don‟t think on the normal run of things that you do any better away from here. Interviewer: Where do you do your grocery shopping today? Mrs. Clements: Same old place that we‟ve been doing it for sixty years, the Daane and Witters. Interviewer: I sort of guessed that but, I didn‟t really know. Mrs. Clements: Well, I don‟t know what I‟d do without them, because they deliver even way out here today and I wouldn‟t be able to carry all those groceries. They and American Laundry still comes out and the stores deliver so it‟s wonderful but I don‟t know what I‟d do without DaaneWitters. And then another store that I used to love so was Herkner‟s. Those men are all gone, that‟s all changed. Interviewer: What were some of Mr. Clements‟ interests besides the Globe Knitting Works? Mrs. Clements: Just fishing. Interviewer: Just fishing? �20 Mrs. Clements: Just fishing; that took all his thoughts. He had a place up on the little Manistee River on, near Peacock there, between Peacock and Baldwin. He loved that I think better than he did me. Interviewer: I remember the triangle club that… Mrs. Clements: yeah. Interviewer: …that always had a party around Christmas time and it came to the point where the men brought their sons or sons-in-law. And I remember your husband being there and he was one of the organizers and one of the stirrer uppers. Mrs. Clements: Yes, oh and they had such fun when they were young. Those parties were great. Interviewer: Yup. Mrs. Clements: Well, he loved it because the boys did come in and take over at the end; but they had good times. Interviewer: Yeah, have you done much traveling in your life? Mrs. Clements: Very little cause I‟ve been, I‟ve had my Bobby to be around. Interviewer: Yeah, yeah Mrs. Clements: But we did have our first trip to Europe last year, Nellie and I went on the Women‟s City Club tour for just nine days and went to England and to London and to Edinburough, and we thoroughly enjoyed it. Interviewer: You, you had some relatives that came from Scotland? Mrs. Clements: I had, we still had one cousin left up in Scotland and we went to see her in Edinborough. Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Clements: And as I say we picked the coldest day in a hundred and two years. I never want to be so cold again. Interviewer: Do you play bridge? Mrs. Clements: I love it. Interviewer: You‟re a good bridge player I take it. Mrs. Clements: I don‟t play much anymore but I just really truly love to play. �21 Interviewer: We always have one question that we ask, I say we ask, you‟re the first person I‟ve interviewed but the previous people who have done the interviewing seem to have one question they like to ask and that is, what is the greatest change that you‟ve noticed since you were a small? What, what has changed the most in life? Is there one, one particular thing that has changed a great deal or, or what, what has…? Mrs. Clements: I suppose the morals. Interviewer: The morals? Mrs. Clements: What we were taught to believe and to do and to act on, don‟t see those things don‟t seem to matter much anymore. And I don‟t know whether it‟s for the, for better or worse. Interviewer: Why do you think it‟s occurred? Mrs. Clements: I don‟t know. It‟s a whole generation that has changed, because as I look back my grandmother, my mother, myself, my daughter, we all went along pretty much in the same pattern. Maybe improving on each other… Interviewer: Now I asked you before do you think that this project of, of interviewing older people who have lived in Grand Rapids most of their lives or all of their lives is something of value? Mrs. Clements: Oh I do because even if the children don‟t appreciate it today they will as they grow older and they‟ll look, they‟ll know that, while we probably have made up our mistakes, we have tried. Interviewer: Well I think that will conclude our interview. INDEX A Association for the Junior League of America · 14 Avery, Mrs. Noyes · 16 B Bender, Josephine · 14, 15, 18 Bissell, Mr. · 13 Booth Family · 9 Bowen, Mrs. · 16 Butterfly Guild · 13, 14, 15 Butterworth Hospital · 13, 16, 17 C Calder, Emma C. Bluthardt (Mother) · 1, 9, 11, 21 Calder, Robert Gillon (Father) · 1, 2, 12 Central Grammar School · 5, 9 Clements, Earle Arthur (Husband) · 6, 8, 18, 19 Clements, Nellie (Daughter) · 1, 10, 12, 13, 19, 20 Clements, Roy · 6, 7 D Daane-Witters · 19 �22 F Fisher, Mary · 4 Friedman-Spring’s · 19 G Globe Knitting Works · 6, 19 Golden Rule Girls · 16 Grace Church · 18 Michigan Chair Company · 2 Mills, Nifty · 4 Miss Moffat’s School · 5 Murray, Mary · 4 N Nelson-Matter Furniture Company · 2 P H Palmer, Mrs. Millard · 16 Harvey Clay Family · 18 Howe Military School · 8 R J Ragsdale, Dr. L.V. · 17 Robert Irwins Family · 9 Russell, Fran · 10 Johnson-Handley · 2 Junior Diet Kitchen Guild of Butterworth · 18 Junior League · 10, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 S K Keck, Miss · 4, 5, 16 Kent County Club · 2, 12 L Liesveld, Herman · 6 M Maddox, Olive · 4 Spence School · 5 Steele, Florence · 15 W Warner, Jeanette · 16, 18 Waters, Mrs. · 16 Wealthy Avenue Street School · 3 Wilcox, Dorothy · 14 Wolf, Estelle · 16 Women’s City Club · 5, 15, 16, 17, 20 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/46f7fd0da6c30151863c533c07d1289e.mp3 ec9fc828c8438e406bd553db2c7bf666 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_41Clements Title A name given to the resource Clements, Nellie Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Clements, Nellie Description An account of the resource Nellie Calder was born in Chicago on August 12, 1893. She married Earle Clements in 1914. She organized the Junior League with Josephine Bender and was at one time the president of the Women's City Club. Mrs. Clements traveled to Europe with the Women's City Club. She also worked with maternity cases at Butterworth Hospital. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1974 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c36bc9d4dae37038745de4db936fa09f.pdf 1fcb001ef20473faf77c6c0716062d05 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Miss Estelle Wolf Interviewed on August 6, 1974 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #38 (1:18:01) Biographical Information Miss Estelle Wolf was born in Evart, Osceola County, Michigan on 17 July 1886, the daughter of David Wolf and Amelia Rosenfield. Estelle died on 18 September of 1988 in Manhattan, New York City. Her obituary was published in the New York Times on 21 September 1988. She was well known in New York City. David Wolf, the son of Jacob and Clara (Newberg) Wolf was born on 4 April 1856 in Ogdensburg, St. Lawrence County, New York. He was married to Amelia Rosenfield in Rock Island, Illinois on 14 October 1885. David died on 17 July 1929 at Blodgett Hospital in East Grand Rapids, Michigan. Amelia died at the age of 101 on 13 January 1965 in Blodgett Hospital. The Wolf family plot is in Oak Hill Cemetery in Grand Rapids. The Wolf family lived at 333 (227) South Union Street in Grand Rapids in 1898. The aunt and uncle mentioned are no doubt Morris A. and Ida (Wolf) Heyman who lived with their family at 317 (213) South Union Street. ___________ Interviewer: This Oral History Project Interview is being conducted on Tuesday August 6, 1974. The interview is taking place in the home of Miss Estelle Wolf. We will pick up now from this point, Miss Wolf, however you wish to begin. Miss Wolf: I‟m Estelle Wolf; I was born in Evart, Michigan and came to Grand Rapids with my parents and brother when I was seven years old. My father was one of the pioneer lumbermen, in Evart, and we moved to Grand Rapids when he became involved in selling lumber to the furniture factories here. I think I was in first grade when we came here. I always liked to go to school. I don‟t remember too much about that first grade, but I remember very well where we lived on Union Street near my aunt and uncle, Mr. & Mrs. Heyman. It was a block that had lots of children and so I had lots of playmates. We played outdoors a good deal in our big back yards, and I enjoyed all the children around there. Interviewer: Do happen to remember the names of them? Miss Wolf: Oh, yes, I remember all the names. �2 Interviewer: Maybe you can tell us who some of them were. Miss Wolf: Of course, there were my cousins, the [Morris A.] Heyman children; and next door were the [Warren B.] Stimsons, who were a big family that we had very friendly relations with: the [John K. V.] Agnew children; and farther up the street was the [Everett M.] Radcliffes, and the [George G.] Clays. We were all very friendly. I remember George Clay helped me learn to ride the bicycle. My recollection is that my father won a bicycle, a child‟s bicycle, in a lottery of some kind, and I was the first child on the block to have a bicycle. That was a great event. And down on the corner, the other way down on Wealthy, was the [Charles E.] Mercer family. They had quite a few children too, I don‟t remember exactly how many anymore. I went to Henry Street School, and it seems to me that I was always friendly with children and had lots of playmates. One incident that stands out in my mind that I think is interesting is at the school, in those days the water for the children was in a bucket and we drank out of the dipper, and we stood in line for our turn at the dipper. Henry Street School had the only black children in the city I believe. The black people all lived around in that neighborhood. I don‟t remember any one special, but as we stood in line one day for our drinks, a little black girl took a drink out of the dipper, then the next child in line refused to drink. Morris Stimson got out of his place, and came over and took a drink, and then the line went on. That evidently made a great impression on me because my mother says that I came home and told her about it, and that then I said, “Morris Stimson was a hero.” Interviewer: Oh, that‟s nice. Do you remember any of the teachers you had at school? Miss Wolf: Yes, vaguely. There was Miss [Edith K.] Boynton, I remember her at Henry Street School. I think she was the kindergarten or the first grade, maybe. Also, there was a Miss [Estelle] Hazeltine. I think she was from the family that Lee Hutchins knows Hazeltine of Hazeltine and Perkins. Those are the two names I do remember. Interviewer: Did you have any favorite subjects in school? Miss Wolf: I don‟t think so. In those days I just liked school, and I do remember… my name began with “W”, and I always sat at the back of the room. That bothered me. In class after class I sat in the back of the class. So one day I said to the teacher, “Couldn‟t you seat us by our first names?” And she did. And I sat up front after that. This year at Christmas time, a friend of mine wrote her Christmas cards by an alphabetical list of her friends. So, this year she began at the end, so I got a Christmas card this year, and so I was reminded of this event, this school incident. Interviewer: Do you remember much about the way the houses looked in your neighborhood at that time? �3 Miss Wolf: Yes, because they look almost the same now. I remember the house we moved in on Union Street, was not in very good condition. It had been occupied by a prominent family here, who didn‟t take very good care of it. That annoyed my father very much to think that this family didn‟t take better care of the house. So, when we rented it we remarked about that. Interviewer: That was when you came here from Evart? Miss Wolf: Yes, in 1893, the year of the World‟s Fair in Chicago. Interviewer: By the way, did you go to the World‟s Fair? Miss Wolf: My parents went. Interviewer: Do you have any particular memories of the lumber activity that your father engaged in? Miss Wolf: No, except we talked a good deal about Evart when we first came here. The people he knew there often came down and came to dinner with us, or to lunch, and he kept in very close contact. He had helped establish an industry there called the American Logging Tool Company, and he was the director as long as he lived. It was a very profitable factory that employed quite a few of the people in there, and he kept in contact with them. We had a telephone that was quite unusual too, I guess, and my father used to call up sometimes to talk with Mr. Rose or Mr. Postel. The operator would say, “Well they‟re not at home, but we know where they are!” Interviewer: Your father was in business here? Miss Wolf: Yes, he became quite a well known businessman, Director of the Grand Rapids Trust Company, and I think got along very well with business community. Interviewer: Did he continue his lumber connections after he went into the Trust Company? Miss Wolf: Oh, yes, that wasn‟t full time. He always sold lumber to the factories here, not the lumber that they made their furniture of, but crating materials, and that sort of thing. He was very active in the Republican Party and often said that he knew somebody in every county in Michigan, and was sent around by the National Committee at election time. Interviewer: Did he run for office? Miss Wolf: No never, no, no. I didn‟t really know much about the politics; we didn‟t talk about local politics then, in my recollection. Interviewer: Were there other children at home? Miss Wolf: Just my brother, who‟s four years younger than I am. �4 Interviewer: You mentioned also an aunt and uncle. Miss Wolf: Yes, my uncle, Mr. Heyman, had a horse, and a carriage of sorts. That was a great pleasure to all of us. The children were taken on picnics and on rides: I remember that we went up over John Ball Park and saw the Halley‟s Comet [1910]. Of course I was probably much older then. We did all kinds of nice things because they used to include me very often. Then, I had an aunt [Esther (Wolf)] who had no children, Mrs. Abe M. Amberg. She and I were very good friends. She was quite an intellectual type of person. She was semi-invalid, but she used to do certain things, and every spring she took me to North Park and taught me the wildflowers. We didn‟t take too much interest in the birds, as I remember. There was some interest in the birds, and later on I became a bird watcher, which I still am. But that was, I think, a great factor in my life, going out there, because I‟m very interested in conservation now. I do remember, when I was in high school was the time that the Audubon Society had the campaign to save the egrets. Their plumage at breeding season was taken out to decorate the women‟s hats and I think that probably the first campaign the Audubon Society had for the preservation of wildlife. I was very interested in that. I don‟t know who interested me; maybe it was a school project. I never wore any feathers on my hat after that. Interviewer: Do you remember how you went out to North Park? Miss Wolf: Oh, on the streetcar. Yes, nobody had any automobiles, and riding the streetcar was very nice, too. That‟s what we did on hot summer nights. We‟d get on the streetcar, in the summer they had open cars with long benches, and we‟d ride around the city and cool off that way. Interviewer: Did you go out as far as the Ramona amusement park? Miss Wolf: Oh, that wasn‟t any distance, then, I don‟t think. We used to go to Reed‟s Lake to skate in the winter and I don‟t remember about the summer, not when I was that small. Yes, yes, I do. There was something out there, there was a merry-go-round, there was a carousel, and I always got sick on the carousel. So, when the neighbors took all the children, I would say, “I‟m not going on it.” Once in a while they would persuade me to go, to try it. I remember once I jumped off when it was going, and somebody caught me, because I was getting sick. Interviewer: And you went out there frequently during the summer, would you say? Miss Wolf: Oh, I don‟t think so. No, I think that was quite an event to do that. We went every place on the streetcars. Interviewer: Did your family keep horses, did they have horses? Miss Wolf: No, just my uncle; and that was very unusual, I think, and a great pleasure for the family, because they were generous about taking us. In the summer some of the family, not my �5 immediate family went out to Lamont, to a boarding house out there. I guess we used to drive out there, for the evening or daytime, to have a picnic. But I think I never stayed out there and I don‟t think my parents did either. My father didn‟t like to do that sort of thing. Interviewer: Was there a fairly good-sized Jewish community in Grand Rapids? Miss Wolf: Oh, no very small. There were almost no Jewish children in school. I wasn‟t at all conscious of any discrimination or anything. We did go to the services at the Synagogue, not regularly as I remember, on the holidays we went. But, my family was not religious. The Wolf family, some of them were, more or less. But my mother was not. She always said her father, who was born in Germany, started to have training as a rabbi, but he didn‟t believe in it and he discontinued, so her family never had any religious training, I believe. She was from Rock Island, Illinois. Interviewer: Now that was your mother‟s family? Miss Wolf: Yes. Interviewer: Do you remember any of the people in Rock Island? Miss Wolf: Oh, in Rock Island? Oh, yes: we went there. My mother was one of nine children, I think that grew up. It was very, very exciting to go to Rock Island. My grandfather was a wellto-do citizen of Rock Island, and there were other family members. She had a brother and a nephew there. So there were a lot of relatives. And my uncles were always very indulgent with me and bought me things, took me on excursions and played cards with me; it was very, very pleasant to go there. A big house with all these people; I don‟t know how anyone ever could have kept house with nine children. That‟s something I can‟t imagine. We used to visit occasionally; I don‟t know that we went every year. My mother had a lot of cousins; they were a very pleasant family, very interesting, many of them, and became quite prominent citizens in various places. My one uncle lived in Des Moines, and afterwards became a well-known merchant there. One uncle went to Chicago. So, we had a lot of family around. My mother‟s one brother was very, very short and very overweight. He lived in Chicago. He was very jolly; we loved being with him; he always had good stories to tell and was so good natured and a generous person. There was an actor named George Sidney, who later became a very wellknow director. He played in Chicago in a play called, Welcome Stranger. He looked so much like my uncle that when my uncle walked along the street in Chicago when Mr. Sidney was playing there, the people would say to him, “Welcome Stranger.” Well, a few years after that he and his daughter went to Los Angeles on a trip, and they went to some kind of party where there were a lot of the movie people. His daughter saw Mr. Sidney, so she went over and spoke to him and asked him if he would come over and meet her father, for whom he was often taken. Now, you remember, he was very short, and very fat, and not very �6 good looking. Mr. Sidney came over, and the daughter introduced them. There was a slight pause, and my uncle said, “It‟s alright, Mr. Sidney, I feel just as badly as you do.” In the winter in Grand Rapids, I always loved the snowstorms. I still like them in New York when there‟s a snowstorm that ties up the city, and the traffic is a mess, and the streets get so dirty and sloppy. You know, I used to say, “I just love this!” People think I‟m kind of nutty to like a snowstorm. We used to get awfully cold; I‟d come back and cry because my feet were so cold. We‟d lie down on the banks and make angels in the snow, and have lots of fun with the snow. I always did like that. Interviewer: Were there winter sports? Miss Wolf: Oh, I was never very athletic; I could never hit a golf ball, or a tennis ball, although I used to try. Interviewer: Did you go skating in the wintertime? Miss Wolf: Yes, we went out to Reed‟s Lake, on the streetcar. I wasn‟t a very good skater either, but I‟d go with all the crowd. I had friends always, and went with the crowds, as I remember. Then another thing I remember very well was when I graduated from high school, I had a very lovely dress that we‟d taken and got a lot of pains to have made. And there was a small pox epidemic in Grand Rapids, a very serious one, and no meetings of any kind, no assemblages were allowed. No church, no meetings, and no graduation exercises. So I never was in the graduation exercise from high school. Our diplomas were mailed to us, I guess. All the descriptions of our dresses were written up in the paper, but nobody saw us in our graduation dresses, at graduation. I guess we wore them later. I think I, in fact, I took mine to college with me. Interviewer: And where was that, that you went to college? Miss Wolf: I went to Simmons, in Boston, for two years, which I enjoyed very much. I don‟t know how Simmons was chosen. Well, yes, in a way I do. Anyway I didn‟t have anything to do about choosing it. There were a number of girls from Grand Rapids at Simmons, which was quite unusual because it was a new college, and not only a new college, but a new type of college, where it was a combination of academic and occupational things. I remember going down for the first time with the girls from here on a train. That was a great event. In those days it was lots of fun traveling on the train and having the sleeper, and going into the diner and it was very enjoyable. I loved Boston, and I made friends, my two best friends. One was from Providence, Rhode Island and the other one from Dubuque, Iowa. The three of us were very good friends, and I‟m still very friendly with the girl from Dubuque. The other one, the Providence girl has passed away. But I used to go to Providence very often for weekends with her. She belonged to a neighborhood �7 crowd that took me in as a wild Indian from the west, and I was quite a curiosity. They were surprised at my enthusiasm for the stone walls, the clam chowder, and the things I‟d never had. I kept those friendships up for many, many years. That was a great event in my life. Interviewer: Did you concentrate in any particular subject at Simmons? Miss Wolf: Yes, I was in the household economic department, and specialized in sewing and cooking. But I also took academic subjects and I remember my French teacher, and my German teacher. I took great interest in going to the symphony, to plays, and to the theatre. I became quite friendly with the, oh yes, and English I took. The English teacher and I became very good friends and I used to go to the symphony with her. She was a very good teacher, who interested me in poetry and things I had never known before. One or two of the Providence people are still living, I still hear from them occasionally. Then I remember when automobiles first appeared on the scene. The first automobile that I ever rode in was owned by neighbors of ours, across the street from us on Terrace Avenue lived a Mr. and Mrs. Hayes. They were a very friendly, nice couple that had no children. They had what we called, a one lunger Cadillac, with a rear entrance. That was the first automobile, I believe, that I ever rode in. Then one summer, Mr. and Mrs. Hayes went away for some weeks, and said we could use their car. Well, of course, none of us knew how to drive a car. So we engaged Fred Pantlind, for twenty five cents an hour, to drive for us, and he‟d drive us around town. And that was just great. Then one thing, I have thought about, trying to think of things we did, was on hot summer nights we used to stand down at the corner of Union and Wealthy (this is going back some years now from what I was just talking about) and gather pinching bugs. When people passed by, we‟d put pinching bugs on them, which I‟m sure they didn‟t enjoy. But, we had lots of fun. Interviewer: Did you say not many people had automobiles in that particular time? Miss Wolf: No, no nobody had automobiles. That was well, I wouldn‟t know the date. We had our first automobile in nineteen hundred and six, I believe. My father had an insurance policy come due, and he liked always to have new things, the things that were in vogue, and he bought a Model K Winton, with that money. Now, there were quite a few Model K Wintons in town: I don‟t remember now who owned them. But we knew the automobiles in those days by the sound of their engine. We could tell when a Winton was coming down the street, and who owned it. Seems to me that Dr. [Perry] Schurtz had one, I‟ve forgotten who else. But there were four or five. Interviewer: And you knew them all? Miss Wolf: We knew them all. In those days there were no fenders on the cars, there were no electric lights, they had acetylene tanks, and also changing the tire was an all-day job. In the �8 night, sometimes you heard pounding and pounding they had to pound because tires got frozen on to the rims, and it was a terrific job to take them off. And the shift was not just like it is now. That‟s the only car that we had that I never drove. I drove all the others. And I liked to ride, and I still like to ride. I would beg my brother who did drive the car, to take me for a ride. He‟d drive me around the block and then he‟d say, “Now, are you satisfied?” Interviewer: The automobile sounded, at that time, like they were lots of fun and there weren‟t so many of them, and that you knew all of them. Miss Wolf: I had an uncle who had great influence in my life. He was a widower, Uncle Gus [Gustav A. Wolf], a lawyer who was well known here. And he was a person of many interests, especially intellectual interests, who used to talk to me a good deal about all kinds of things. It was really an education to have him interested in you. He used to be at the house quite a good deal because he did live alone, well, later lived alone. He lived with his sister until she passed away. Interviewer: Can you tell us something more about Uncle Gus? Do you remember anything particularly about him, in addition to what you‟ve already said? Miss Wolf: I ought to remember… He liked to travel. I remember once I went on a trip with him to New Orleans, and Chattanooga, and he knew all the history and we did all the sightseeing in those places. It was very interesting to go with somebody who had an interest in all that history. He was also very interested in the Jewish religion, and in the synagogue. Later, much later, he got his two brothers to join with him and they put a Tiffany window in the synagogue in memory of their parents. Now, the synagogue was sold, and the window was not removed because Uncle Gus died before it was taken out. And this very day, it is being taken out and taken to the new building. Interviewer: Have you been instrumental in making that move? Miss Wolf: Yes, I‟ve tried for several years to do it and finally one of my cousins, who was interested as I was in it, kind of urged me on and I found a way to get it moved. I hope it is not broken and that it gets safely moved and placed in the new building. It‟s now very valuable, the Tiffany windows are not made anymore, and this is a big window and a very beautiful one. Interviewer: Can you describe it a bit, for us? Miss Wolf: Well, it‟s Ruth receiving sheaves of barley from somebody. Interviewer: It‟s a very large window? Miss Wolf: Yes, it‟s a large window to have to replace. We have to put another window in place of it. Of course, it can‟t be left without a window. Interviewer: Do you remember when that window was given to the Temple or the original one? �9 Miss Wolf: It‟s in the; there is a book that was published when the new Temple was built out on Fulton Street, and the date in that is nineteen twenty-six. So I guess that was when it was put in. That was very unusual to have a Tiffany window, in this part of the country, to have anyone know about them. But Uncle Gus kept track of things like that, and was interested. Interviewer: Now, your uncle had a law practice here, you say? Miss Wolf: Yes, he was a successful lawyer. He went to Michigan, University of Michigan Law School, and I guess was one of the early graduates. I did know, but I‟ve forgotten the date he graduated. His name is in the history that Mr. Baxter wrote of Grand Rapids. Interviewer: His full name was….? Miss Wolf: Gustav A., Gustav A. Wolf Interviewer: Gustav A. Wolf. Miss Wolf: He was born in Ogdensburg, New York. All the three Wolf boys were born in Ogdensburg, and the three girls, Mrs. [Ida] Heyman, Mrs. [Esther] Amberg, and Mrs. [Bertha] Levi, were born in Ionia. Interviewer: The family lived in Ionia then for a while? Miss Wolf: Yes. Interviewer: Do you remember what type of law practice your uncle had? Miss Wolf: Well. I think it was general. General is all, as far as I know. Interviewer: And, he was not in politics either? Miss Wolf: He was a member of the library board, and enjoyed that work very much. I don‟t know that he ever ran for office. I don„t think any of the Wolfs did. Interviewer: They were primarily either in professions or in business? Miss Wolf: And interested in welfare things, and civic organizations, all of them. My mother was active at Butterworth Hospital Guild, and there is a guild named after her. She was one of the founders of the Housekeepers Guild of Butterworth, and was afterwards on the women‟s board. I guess the Housekeepers Guild is named after her, the Amelia R. Wolf Guild. Interviewer: What were some of the other activities of a welfare nature or even general social activities? Miss Wolf: I think my brother once managed a drive for the Red Cross, and my aunt, Mrs. Heyman, was active in the blind association. I think she was active at Butterworth and Blodgett �10 Hospital and so was I. I was one of the founders of the Mary Free Bed Guild, which is still in existence. We had a very exciting time when we founded that, with Rosamond Rouse, and Isabelle Boise, and we put on a series of lectures, and concerts, a number of years and brought out all the big people. It was really a terrific undertaking for us. As I remember that first year, the artists cost five thousand dollars. Of course, one artist would cost that now probably… But that was something terrific for us to raise five thousand dollars. We sold tickets, had the concerts at Power‟s Theatre, and they were very successful, and it was lots of fun, and we entertained the singers, the performers, the dancers, and the musicians, and it was very exciting. I was the treasurer, and the artists, wanted to be paid in cash the minute the concert was over. So, I had to go and get the money from the bank, the day of the concert. That made my mother very nervous, to have five thousand dollars in cash in the house. She could hardly wait till the concert was over and I got rid of that money. Interviewer: Do you remember much about the Power‟s Theatre, at that time? Miss Wolf: Yes. In those days, all the good shows went on the road. We went to the theatre very often and saw very good plays. Then I remember, I think the first movie I ever saw was at the Power‟s Theatre was the… that fight, that famous fight, [Bob] Fitzsimons and, who was the other? And my father evidently was one of the backers of that, and we sat in a box and saw that fight. That was also a great event. Interviewer: Did they have what we would call legitimate theatre only, at the Powers? Miss Wolf: That was before any movies were existence. And you saw your friends when you went to the theatre. It was always very exciting, I thought. I liked the theatre, and all the good shows came here. Interviewer: That‟s what I understand. Others have said that so many of the good shows and the good actors and actresses… Miss Wolf: We saw everything; that was you didn‟t have to go to New York to see the theatre in those days. Now, there isn‟t anything good in New York. It‟s very disappointing to go to the theatre now. I don‟t know why, but the good plays are being written, and the successful runs are all revivals of old things that I saw years ago, that I don‟t care to see again: I have my recollections of them. Interviewer: But you still go to the theatre? Miss Wolf: Not very often anymore, I‟ve only been two or three times lately, in the last year, or couple of years. I remember we used to have all the children‟s illnesses in those days. There were signs then that were then put on the house, the green sign of measles, and then you were quarantined. And we‟d play. I liked to play dolls and sew for them. So then on the doll‟s house we would put a little green sign that said “measles”. �11 Interviewer: You mentioned that there was a smallpox epidemic when you graduated from high school. Did that touch any of the members of your family? Miss Wolf: No, but we knew Dr. DeLano, who was the Health officer then, and he used to tell us about it. He showed us pictures of people who were afflicted, and they were very unpleasant pictures I remember. He was a very, very nice person. Afterwards, I kept up my association with his daughters for many years, and they became teachers. Agnes especially was a very interesting person. She lived in Washington, and I used to go down to visit her. She died in Paris a few years ago. She was a real authority about art and literature. She was a very interesting person, and I enjoyed my friendship with her very much. Interviewer: Do you remember having measles, mumps and all of that? Miss Wolf: Vaguely, yes, I had measles and mumps, I‟m sure. I guess I don‟t know what else you had. I didn‟t have diphtheria or scarlet fever. Then another thing that was always interesting was going to the dentist, for some reason or another, I liked to go there; you got a free can of toothpaste; that was fun. Interviewer: It‟s somewhat unusual not to be frightened of going to the dentist. Miss Wolf: I guess that‟s true. Well, I probably never had anything very frightening done to me, or anything that hurt. I don‟t remember much about a doctor. Oh, I guess I was always very healthy. Interviewer: Good. And the family apparently was too? Miss Wolf: Yes, and I don‟t remember my mother really ever being sick, or my father much, until the very end. Interviewer: When did your parents die? Miss Wolf: My mother lived to be almost one hundred and two, just lacked a few months. She died in nineteen sixty-five, I think. My father died in nineteen twenty nine, just when the stock market crash was about to take place. That was very disturbing to him because he realized something very serious was happening. That of course, was a terrible thing for us, and I suppose for everybody else. All of our holdings became practically worthless. Interviewer: Was there an important change in your family life at about that time? Miss Wolf: Yes, my brother was ill, and was away in a hospital. I had moved to New York, not just when he died, but soon afterwards, and my mother was in this big house. Then she rented some rooms to teachers, some interesting persons, and she made quite an interesting life for herself and got a little income from the house, and wasn‟t too lonesome with all of us gone. That was quite a change, of course. Finally, things, I don‟t know, got straightened out; I don‟t know �12 how it all happened, because at one time we practically had nothing. But we did have timber land that was sold afterwards, and I guess that helped us. Interviewer: Were you living in New York by that time? Miss Wolf: I went to New York, to a school of photography, not intending to stay. I had no idea of staying, but I stayed, and I‟m still there. Interviewer: You‟re still there. Could you tell us a little about what you have done in New York? Miss Wolf: Well, I think I‟ve had an interesting time in New York. I made friends at the schools, some of my friends from the fraternity[?] school I still see, and gradually got acquainted. During the war, I had quite a lot of work taking pictures of babies, and men who were going in to the service. Then I always liked cats. I got so I took quite a lot of pictures of people‟s pets. But after the war it all kind of petered out. Now I don‟t take any pictures at all, and I don‟t have any paid job. I‟m a volunteer for the Friends of Central Park, which I consider to be a great privilege to work with the people I do. We try to interest people in the preservation of parks, and in parks in general. Of course now, the people are interested in anti-pollution, and conservation, and we get a great response. We have bicycle trips and tours, and walking tours through the city, not just through Central Park, but other parks, and in fact into some of the towns in New Jersey that have interesting architectural buildings. Also, I‟ve gradually gotten very interested in politics. Oh, I guess I‟ll have to go back and say I worked for WPA. That was when I, gee, I don‟t know, what year was the WPA? I can‟t think what year that was. Interviewer: In the thirties. Miss Wolf: Catherine Murray was the head of the women‟s division of the WPA, in Michigan, a very close friend of mine. Through her, I got a job with the Michigan WPA. And I lived in Detroit for a couple of years taking pictures, and I guess in that way I got interested in politics. Those were the days of Roosevelt, when politics were very exciting, and lots of new things being tried. Then in New York there was a big movement to reform the Democratic Party and get rid of the old bosses. I was quite active in one of those clubs, and got to know the young people who were running for office. I have still kept up my interest, and in recent years, the borough presidents have organized what are called community boards. I‟ve been on Community Board Eight, which is one of the good boards in the city for a long, long time. I think I‟ve been on longer than anybody else. The borough president keeps reappointing me. In that way, while we don‟t have any great authority, I know what‟s going on in the community, and take part in the discussions. I‟m on some of the committees: the park committee, the landmark committee. I enjoy those contacts, and enjoy hearing what‟s going on in the city, and we‟re always fighting �13 for what we believe in. Also, through the Friends of Central Park I have testified sometimes for the city planning commission, or the landmarks commission, and that‟s been a great education for me. I never thought I could get up before the Board of Estimate and talk, but I have done it. Interviewer: Good. So, you‟ve enjoyed your time in New York. Miss Wolf: Very much, yes, I know lots of people there now. I think I know more people in New York than I do in Grand Rapids now, and see I‟ve lived there a long, long time. Interviewer: Now you mentioned boroughs, which borough do you live? Miss Wolf: I live in Manhattan. There are five boroughs, and every borough has a president. The presidents, and the mayor, and the controller, and the president of the city council, form what is called the Board of Estimate. And then, besides that, there‟s the city council. The Board of Estimate decides on all the appropriations. Interviewer: And that‟s the one you‟ve appeared before. Miss Wolf: Yes. Interviewer: Now, are there other things about Grand Rapids that stand out, or that you wanted to mention? Do you come back…? Miss Wolf: I come back every year, at least once a year, I always have. I used to come back twice a year, I used to drive, but I don‟t have a car now, so I fly. And there‟s no train anymore. Interviewer: Well, there are very few. Miss Wolf: There are very few. Maybe I ought to have taken them. Of course there was a time when I worked at the Women‟s City Club. I helped found the City Club, and I was one of the charter members of the City Club. Now they‟ve just had their fiftieth anniversary. I can‟t believe it was fifty years ago that we met, as I recall, in a room in the Morton Hotel, and started to talk about forming the City Club. Then they rented the house next to Park Congregational Church. That was the first club house. Then, for some reason, which I don‟t exactly recall, the woman who was running it left; and they were wondering who they could get to take her place. I remember that meeting very well. The Board of Directors and Catherine Murray said, “What about Estelle Wolf?” So, I got the job. She got me two jobs; with the WPA, and with the Women‟s City Club. I think I was fairly successful. We moved then up to the present location. We raised a lot of money, and it was very remarkable how that grew, I think, and there were trials and tribulations trying to please sixteen hundred women. But I enjoyed it. One of the things I remember very well, was well… I considered myself a person with no affectations, but I didn‟t like the way the people said tomato, tomato all the different ways. So I decided I was going to say tomato. It was a great effort on my part to always say tomato, because the people around here didn‟t say it. But I heard people around Boston say tomato, and I thought �14 that was very nice. When I used to order the groceries or the provisions over the telephone, for the Women‟s City Club, for the dining room, the man from whom I ordered them always repeated after me. I would say,” I want a bushel of potatoes.” He would say” A bushel of potatoes.” ”One crate of lettuce.” “A crate of lettuce.” “I want a bag of cucumbers.” “A bag of cucumbers.” And “I want three boxes of tomatoes,” and he would say “Yes.” Interviewer: That‟s charming. Who were some of the other original founders of the club? You mentioned a meeting that took place….? Miss Wolf: Oh, my, Mrs. Born was the first president, I think. This has all been in the paper recently because of their celebration of their fiftieth anniversary. Mrs. Hendricks was a president, and Mrs. Waters. Grace VanHolten (VanHouten?) was a wonderful treasurer for many years, and Edith Dykema I seem to remember. (I think) she was very active: it was a very nice group of people. Interviewer: And what, as you think back, to what purpose, and or what was the principle thing that the club was going to do? Miss Wolf: Well, they never seemed to take the interest in the civic affairs, that, for instance, the Women‟s City Club in New York does. They‟re very active in what goes on in the city and take a stand, and have studies for different projects that are being considered. But here it seemed to be more social, meeting for luncheon, and they did have always a certain number of lectures, but in more of a cultural nature, I think. Mrs. McKnight, Mrs. William McKnight contributed greatly to the club in those early days, because she knew the theatrical people who came here. I remember she brought Katherine Cornell to the club and all the prominent people who came. She did it with a great flair, it was very interesting and very nice to meet these people and have them come talk to us. Interviewer: Your membership grew rapidly? Miss Wolf: Yes, and they have a big waiting list now, I believe. I was there four years, as a secretary. (Background Voice: Tell them about Mrs. Shanahan. I thought that was quite amusing.) Miss Wolf: Oh, well, the Shanahan family, of course, I always think lent a lot of interest to the community. They had a lot of style, humor and chic. One of the first days the club was open for lunch, I saw people come in to the dining room. Then for some reason I went into the kitchen, and one of the waitresses came out to the kitchen very excited. She said “There is a lady smoking!” I said “Yes, I‟m sure that‟s Mrs. Shanahan.” So she was one of the first women in Grand Rapids to smoke, maybe. Although I remember, this is a very, very long time ago, when Teddy Roosevelt came to Grand Rapids and brought his daughter Alice. She created a furor in Grand Rapids because she smoked. �15 Interviewer: Oh, my. Do you remember anything else about that visit? Miss Wolf: No, I didn‟t go to those meetings. I did not ever join the Republican Party, even though my father had. It amused my father very much that I voted for [Robert M.] La Follette, I remember. But I went to Chicago and went to the School of Civics and Philanthropy, which of course was very liberal and I guess they influenced me to be interested in the more liberal politics. That was a very, very wonderful experience, too, because I went to the school in its heyday when the prominent people were interested in social work, Sophonisba Breckenridge, Edith Abbott, and Graham Taylor, all very remarkable pioneers. Interviewer: Do you remember anything about Miss Breckenridge? Miss Wolf: Well, I just remember her as my teacher. Interviewer: As one of your teachers? Miss Wolf: Yes. Interviewer: Well, one of the young men in my department is writing a biography of her. Miss Wolf: Of her? Interviewer: Yes. Miss Wolf: Isn‟t that interesting? Interviewer: So I may tell him that he should talk to you? Miss Wolf: Yes, because she was a very good teacher. They were all very nice to me, I remember, and she gave me special things to do. Sometimes there was a study, that somebody could do, and I remember I did one or two of those. I think maybe I even got paid for them. I don‟t know. Edith Abbott of course, was a very prominent person. Her sister, Grace Abbott, was the first director of the Children‟s Bureau, in Washington, when it was very new: or maybe she was the second, and maybe Julia Lathrop was the first. Then there was a teacher named Victor Yarroughs, who taught economics. I enjoyed his classes very much. I was instrumental in getting him to come over to Grand Rapids once, to give a lecture. Interviewer: Do you remember any other recollections of your time at the school? Miss Wolf: Oh yes. That was a very wonderful experience for me. I had an apartment and a roommate, and I was very interested in what I was doing there then. Interviewer: Was it very well received at that time? �16 Miss Wolf: Social Work? Interviewer: Yes. Miss Wolf: Oh, yes, yes I thought so, anyway. When I lived here afterwards for some years, I became interested in the Jewish Welfare Society. Let‟s see, I went there one year and then there was the First World War, and my brother went in the service. So I came to Grand Rapids, and worked for the Family Service. Then the war ended, or I guess it didn‟t end, but I went back then after a lapse of one year, and finished my courses there, and graduated, so to speak. I stayed in Chicago and worked for the Red Cross, in the Veteran‟s Hospital for several years. Then Catherine Murray, who I mentioned several times, she said to me one day, “Let‟s go to Europe”. So I resigned my job, and we went to Europe. Then I went twice more, and had wonderful trips, which I enjoyed. I haven‟t been to Europe since nineteen twenty seven. Everybody says it‟s very changed, with high rise buildings and lots of traffic, and I wouldn‟t enjoy it as much as I did. I had three wonderful trips to Europe. We stayed a long time in those days, because we didn‟t fly. The life on the ship was always part of the trip, it was fun; you met interesting people and even though I got seasick I always went again. Interviewer: Do you remember any of the ships you crossed the Atlantic on? Miss Wolf: Well, I was trying to think of those the other day. The first ones we went on were the Red Star Line. I think it was an English line, the Kroonland, and I went on Holland-America once. Those last ships I don‟t seem to remember. Interviewer: What was life like on shipboard at that time? Miss Wolf: When I was well, it was very interesting, especially if you sat at a table with some interesting people. It was fun just sitting out on the deck, enjoying the ocean and the people. I don‟t think we did much drinking in those days. But you got acquainted with quite interesting people, as I recall. Some of whom I corresponded with for some years. I enjoyed the food. It was always interesting, good, different than you had at home. Especially the manners the people that were on the English ships. People were polite, and different from what you were used to at home. Interviewer: Where did you visit in Europe? On the continent, in England. Miss Wolf: Well, I did quite extensive traveling. The first time, Catherine and I went with a group, which we found we didn‟t really need. We were capable of traveling by ourselves. The last time I went to Yugoslavia and Egypt, and always to Paris, which I liked and got to know quite well, even though unfortunately, I didn‟t speak very much French. I liked Paris, I think better than London. There are lots of people who like London better. I went to Switzerland, but I always liked France very much. I think I liked the food, and I liked the people. But I also liked Italy. I liked the Italians; I liked their animation and their friendliness. The site-seeing of course, in Italy is just marvelous. There‟s so much to see, and I didn‟t know much of that history. �17 I went one time when (I guess that was the first time we went) there was a young woman on board, who was going to Germany for the State Department. Then we saw her in Berlin, and I always kept in touch with her. She eventually ended up in Athens; so that last trip that I made, I went to Athens. She made my stay there... I went to Greece, and she made my stay there very interesting. She introduced me to people, and we hired a car and went on some trips. She came to New York once or twice, and I saw her. Within the last few years, one day, in connection with the Friends of Central Park, I got a request for a map of Central Park, from Andrew Antoniadis. That was my friend‟s son. He‟s gone back to Athens and is in business with his father who is an architect. His father, the husband of my friend, was one of the architects for the United Nations, because they employed people from all different countries. Interviewer: Good. Now, all of these trips you made were before nineteen twenty-seven, did you say? Miss Wolf: The last one was in nineteen twenty-seven. That was when I went to Egypt, which I enjoyed very, very much. That was before the days of knowing too much about that trip up the Nile. I went as far as Luxor: I should have gone farther. I didn‟t know whether there were those trips then, and seeing those monuments that have since been destroyed or removed. I like the sight-seeing in Egypt; it interested me very, very much. Through an organization that I belong to, I got in touch with an English guide, a woman who had an encampment out at Geza [Gaza?]. I stayed out there with her, and she was very helpful in helping me go sight-seeing and telling me what to see and she took me around some, and to some of the restaurants. I remember that she went with me because I was alone there, and it wasn‟t too pleasant then for a woman to be alone in Egypt. Interviewer: Did you make two trips with Catherine Murray? Miss Wolf: Yes, I went twice with Catherine Murray, and once alone. The last time alone was quite extensive. I met some friends and went down the Yugoslav coast, with these people. We were on a ship that stopped at all the places. We started at Trieste, and it was soon after the war, and there were live sheep on the ship. They were reparations from Germany to some of those countries. So, that was a very interesting trip. I remember you never knew who, (after you stopped at a port, then you got back on) your companions were. I remember these young women, I was with; they stayed in Albania. So I get back on the ship alone, and I wondered who in the world would be on that boat with me, who I could be able to talk to. We sat down for dinner, and I didn‟t say anything for awhile, because I didn‟t know if they spoke English. Then a young man began to talk. He was an Albanian, but he was a graduate of Harvard. So we got along fine. Interviewer: I‟ll bet! Did he like clam chowder as well as you? �18 Miss Wolf: Well, I hope so. Interviewer: I imagine it would be both difficult and unusual for a young woman to be traveling by herself at that time, in Egypt. Miss Wolf: Well, I got kind of frightened by a woman. I went from Athens, or Piraeus, or whatever the port was, to Egypt with. This was all very new and strange to me. I bought a ticket, of course, for the ship. When I got on, the Purser said to me, “I noticed that your ticket is from Cook & Company and you‟re in a state room with a Nubian woman and some children.” He said “I‟ve taken the privilege of changing you.” I didn‟t know what a Nubian woman was. But I got into this cabin with an English woman, whose husband was in King Farouk‟s entourage. She wasn‟t allowed to travel with him. They had gone to England, so she had to travel alone. Well, she didn‟t like Egypt, and she scared the daylights out of me, about what to do and what not to do, so unnecessarily. There wasn‟t any danger around me at all. So, I was a little apprehensive about it. But also, when you were alone, an Egyptian guide wasn‟t necessarily an interesting companion, so that I would like to talk to other people. Interviewer: Are there any other things that you want to mention now? Any other things that have come to mind about your connections with Grand Rapids? Miss Wolf: Oh, I loved high school. I went from Henry Street, I went to Central Grammar in the seventh and eighth grades, and made friends there that were not just from my own little community, or neighborhood. Then I went to Central High School. I loved going to school, and I loved going to high school. I wasn‟t ever a very good student, but I liked going. Then I became a member of a Sorority, which was very undemocratic of me. But we were a very nice association. I didn‟t think anything about this sorority. I didn‟t know much about it, I guess. But I went home for lunch one day, or went home after school, I guess it was, one day and my mother said, “Hazel Amberg and Carrie Ward have been here to see you.” I couldn‟t imagine what these older, very exciting women came to see me about. But they came again, and invited me to join the sorority and that was a very nice experience for me, even though it was undemocratic. I got to know this circle of girls well. We did things together and had meetings. I remember most of my teachers in school, Miss [Agnes] Ginn, the French teacher, and Miss Stout (I‟ve forgotten what she taught.), Mrs. Heeve, and Mr. Bacon, maybe that was Central Grammar…… We had dances and danced a lot. We had a building that had been a stable that we made into a recreation room. We called it the Annex, and it was in the back of our house. We had a phonograph, what we called a phonograph in those days, and a dance floor. We had lots of dances. There was a very nice neighborhood there too, a very congenial neighborhood. We used to have picnics there, and it was even once a hospital. When one of my aunts was ill, she didn‟t want to go home, and she didn‟t want to stay in the hospital. So they fixed that [the Annex] up for a hospital. It was a very convenient building to have. My father had some railroad friends, and I guess they played cards. They used to bring a cook up from the Pullman, and roast pig. I �19 remember they would have great feasts there. The men loved to come up there to that room and play cards and have dinner. Interviewer: That was the house… Miss Wolf: That was the Annex that was on Terrace Avenue; later Prospect Street or Prospect Avenue, I believe. Interviewer: How long have you lived in this house? Miss Wolf: As I recall, my father bought this house in nineteen twenty seven, when I was in Europe. He remodeled it quite extensively. We had sold the house on Prospect and lived in a small apartment on Sheldon Avenue for two or three years, until this house was finished. I think we moved in here in nineteen twenty-eight. My father like this house very much. He enjoyed living here. He wanted to live near enough so we could walk downtown. Those were the days when people were first beginning to move out on the outskirts. But he didn‟t want to do that. Interviewer: Now, as I‟ve asked others this question, I thought maybe you now would like to respond to it. Your life in New York is very different. But, of course, today it‟s very much like life in most large cities. Outside of the location of your life today, things are very different than they were, say, when you were living on Terrace Avenue. The whole quality of life seems to be very different. I wonder if you have thought what was responsible, what, more than anything else, is responsible for the change in the life that we live. I know you mentioned the excitement of being a child when the first automobile came through, and you talked about the advent of movies, and things of that sort. Do you see any of these things as having much influence? You mentioned the Depression; do you see any of these things, or anything else, as being important as a thing that has changed the way we all live? Miss Wolf: Well, that‟s a very interesting question. I don‟t know; I‟d have to give it a lot of thought. I think it‟s just a gradual evolution, from day to day as things change, and as life has changed for most people. All the things we use every day. Sometimes you know, you think you don‟t like some of the new things. I don‟t like women wearing pants, for instance. But, on the other hand there are some things that you do like: Plastic bags and shopping bags; what did we do without those? And the automobile, so that‟s all just a gradual thing. Then I think of my early childhood. I think the Wolf family, perhaps my father not quite as much as my aunts and Uncle Gus, were very interested in what went on in the world. I remember sitting around in my grandmother‟s house and hearing my aunts and uncles discuss a popular book, Trilby. I remember that they were very excited about it. They were an intellectual group of people, and their friends were interested in the intellectual things too, more so than my parents. So, I was kind of drawn to sitting around and listening to that. I think, then as I grew older, that those were the kind of people I associated with. �20 My mother had a sister who lived in St. Paul, who also had no children. I used to be with her quite a good deal. She was very active in the suffrage movement, and in helping to form the Minneapolis Symphony, and was a prominent person there. So that all those things interested me. I presume that, that continued through my life, so that I kept on in my own way. I‟m a joiner, and in New York, there are many opportunities to join, and politics became more exciting than in the old days. The population increased, and activities increased, and the life changed. I think the automobile had a great deal to do with the changing of our lives. Looking at the size of the city, New York is a great center for so many things, and the things interested me in some way. Interviewer: How do like to live in New York now, as compared to when you first arrived. Miss Wolf: Well, New York is not as attractive as it used to be. Everybody says that. There was a time when I said, “I hope I feel the glamour of New York every time I step out on the street.” Well now, when you step out on the street you see the litter, the graffiti, and the people whose clothes I don‟t like. I think the people are as unattractive as the city. I don‟t like the new buildings. I think it‟s very sad to see them tearing down some very handsome buildings that cannot be replaced. There is a great fight to keep the landmarks, but it is fight, because of course money is involved and the taxes are high on the old buildings. But there‟s great, great interest in the old things; the good old things. There is a continuous fight to save them, and continual fighting against the Metropolitan Museum for their taking the Park land and adding wings that have no relation to the old architecture. People are very disturbed about these things, and so, you‟re glad to see that there is so much interest. There is more and more interest, I think; more interest in nature, and preserving the wildlife, the species that are endangered. You see that all the time, everyday in the Times. The New York Times is very good at alerting the people to what is going on in the way of conservation of nature, and the buildings, the landmarks. I think they‟re influential in that. Interviewer: You‟ve been working especially with the landmarks, is that right? Miss Wolf: Well, I‟ve done a little – not very much – some. But I‟ve been more interested in the parks. Interviewer: In the Park itself? Miss Wolf: I‟ve got to know quite a lot about the parks. I work with very interesting people, who have spent a great deal of time studying these things, and informing themselves. I‟m very privileged I think, to work with them. Interviewer: And you still enjoy New York, really? Miss Wolf: Oh, I still enjoy New York. Interviewer: All things considered? �21 Miss Wolf: I don‟t get around quite as well as I did fifty years ago, but I get around. Interviewer: Thank you very much! INDEX A Abbott, Edith · 16 Abbott, Grace · 16 Agnew family (John K. V.) · 2 Amberg, Hazel · 19 Amberg, Mrs. (Abe M.) · 4 Amberg, Mrs. (Esther) · 9 Amelia R. Wolf Guild · 10 American Logging Tool Company · 3 Antoniadis, Andrew · 18 Audubon Society · 4 F First World War · 16 Friends of Central Park · 12, 13, 18 G Ginn, Miss (Agnes) · 19 Grand Rapids Trust Company · 3 H B Bacon, Mr. · 19 Boise, Isabelle · 10 Born, Mrs. · 14 Boynton, Miss (Edith K.) · 2 Breckenridge, Miss · 16 Breckenridge, Sophonisba · 15 Butterworth Hospital Guild · 10 C Central Grammar · 19 Central High School · 19 Clay family (George G.) · 2 Clay, George · 2 Cornell, Katherine · 15 D DeLano, Agnes · 11 DeLano, Dr. · 11 Depression · 20 Dykema, Edith · 14 Hayes, Mr. and Mrs. · 7 Hazeltine and Perkins · 2 Hazeltine, Miss (Estelle) · 2 Heeve, Mrs. · 19 Hendricks, Mrs. · 14 Henry Street School · 2, 19 Heyman family (Morris A.) · 2 Heyman, Morris A. · 1 Heyman, Mr. & Mrs. · 1 Heyman, Mr. (Morris A.) · 4 Heyman, Mrs. (Ida) · 9, 10 Hutchins, Lee · 2 J Jewish Welfare Society · 16 John Ball Park · 4 L La Follette, (Robert M.) · 15 Lathrop, Julia · 16 Levi, Mrs. (Bertha) · 9 �22 M Mary Free Bed Guild · 10 McKnight, Mrs. William · 15 Mercer family (Charles E.) · 2 Morton Hotel · 14 Murray, Catherine · 13, 14, 17, 18 N Newberg, Clara · 1 P Pantlind, Fred · 7 Park Congregational Church · 14 Power’s Theatre · 10 R Radcliffe family (Everett M.) · 2 Ramona Park · 4 Reed’s Lake · 4, 6 Roosevelt, Alice · 15 Roosevelt, Teddy · 15 Rosenfield, Amelia · 1 Rouse, Rosamond · 10 S Schurtz, Dr. (Perry) · 8 Shanahan family · 15 Shanahan, Mrs. · 15 Sidney, George · 5 Sidney, Mr. · 6 Stimson family (Warren B.) · 2 Stimson, Morris · 2 Stout, Miss · 19 T Taylor, Graham · 16 V VanHolten, Grace · 14 W Ward, Carrie · 19 Waters, Mrs. · 14 Wolf family · 5, 20 Wolf, David · 1 Wolf, Gustav A. · 8, 9 Wolf, Ida · 1 Wolf, Jacob · 1 Wolf, Uncle Gus · 8, 9, 20 Women’s City Club · 14, 15 Y Yarroughs, Victor · 16 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/45f4d42cb954f3ad7af2ef1e97a2c89d.mp3 f668f5c265894abf1bc7563ad8dcdbe7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_38Wolfe Title A name given to the resource Wolf, Estelle Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Wolf, Estelle Description An account of the resource Estelle Wolf was born July 21, 1886. Miss Wolf spent two years at Simmons College in Boston, Massachusetts. She was one of the founders of the Mary Free Bed Guild in Grand Rapids. She taught school and photography in New York, and was active in politics in a Democratic club in New York during the Roosevelt era. She was a volunteer for the Friends of Central Park in New York, and worked for the WPA in Detroit. Miss Wolf died September 1, 1988. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1974 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c56fed701a4e518244923acf859564e1.pdf 19d8274fc7783db246a8a40d493b07c6 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Herbert Hefferan Interviewed on November 10, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #37 (55:16) Biographical Information Herbert Hefferan was born 16 January 1875 in Grand Rapids, Michigan, the son of Edward and Ellen (Laughlin) Hefferan. Edward was born in Michigan about 1842 and died in Grand Rapids on 1 January 1900 at the Kent County Jail. Ellen died 22 May 1903 at the family home on Quimby Street in Grand Rapids. Both Edward and Ellen are buried in St. Andrews Cemetery. Herbert died March 1972 at Blodgett Hospital and is buried in Woodlawn Cemetery. ___________ Interviewer: Alright. I suppose… Herbert: You will want to know my age first wouldn‟t you?. Interviewer: Yes, go ahead, how old are you? Herbert: I‟m ninety-six and a half. Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: I am the oldest man here. Interviewer: Were your born in Grand Rapids? Herbert: Yes, I was born on Monroe Avenue, two blocks north of the Pantlind Hotel, it was Canal Street then, only across the road, across the road from… it was called Canal Street. Interviewer: Were (there) homes down there? Herbert: No, there were buildings. Same buildings were up until they tore them all down. It was the Crisp(?) Block, I was in the Crisp(?) Block. Now I am thinking about that, that took place, we lived on the third floor, a tenant that lived on the second floor, a store on the first floor and in the basement where my father ran a saloon. Interviewer: Hmmm. Herbert: My father had, a man had a fight with a woman and he killed another man but not in my father‟s saloon, up on the street. And the man run across the road and ran upstairs to the hallway to the top of the third floor and hid behind a chimney. Well, they put my father who was six foot �2 one and a half weighed one hundred ninety-five pounds, they put him watching down the stairs. But he didn‟t have no gun, and this fellow on the roof had a gun, so my father wouldn‟t stay any longer, so he beat it. And ever afterwards, we would jolly him about it. We used to buy ten cents worth of peanuts and Mother, I, Father and all would go down and sit in this hallway and we‟d all kid him about running away. And here is the funny part of it, twenty-five years later I come down in an electric car and Joe Smith, do you remember Joe Smith?, [He] and [Dad] were [the] only two detectives and Joe Smith was standing in front of this same hallway when I got off this electric car. I lived up on the north end on Quimby Street came down on the car and I got off there and here was Joe Smith and he had a gun out and putting cartridges into it. I said, ”What‟s the matter Joe, what happened?” Well you know Lapman that runs the tramp boarding house, a tramp robbed him last night and killed him He is up on this roof and you are just the right man, that I want. I want you to stay down here at the foot of the stairs, and (this is twenty five years later), and watch it. I said alright Joe, but make sure to bring him down. When he went away, I ran over to the store, the Heyman Furniture Company, it was two hundred feet away and our night watchman had a gun. He carried it at night and he left it in my drawer, in my desk. So I run over and got this gun, and I got back there Joe had came down from the top of the roof, and he had the guy and had manacles on him. Interviewer: I just wanted to make sure it was being picked up (apparently the tape recorder). Herbert: I‟ll have to give you another; I was always mixed up in murders. In Los Angeles, did you ever see a man kill another? Interviewer: No. I‟ve seen a man get shot, but the man didn‟t die. Herbert: But he didn‟t die? Interviewer: No Herbert: I saw two and they both died. I was going down the street in Los Angeles with Mr. and Mrs. Stonehouse, we had an apartment together down there. We were going down Sixth St., down past Jack Dempsey‟s place and we were just going to cross the road and there was a policeman in the middle of the square, he rode this way and this way, and he was in a box. This is what they would do in the old days, they would turn this way, and they wanted you to stop and let the others go. This man ran out of a restaurant and he ran right towards this policeman, and we had just got within about ten [to] fifteen feet of him, when another man came out and begins to holler, “Stop thief, stop thief!” The fellow that was supposed to be the thief ran right towards the policeman. Now the policeman didn‟t have no jury, or asked him if he done it, or tried to arrest him or anything, he just picked up his gun and took aim and shot him right through the temple, dropped dead right in front of us. I was from here to that... Interviewer: The policeman shot him? �3 Herbert: Shot him dead. Interviewer: He shot him? Didn‟t even know if he was guilty or not? Herbert: Didn‟t know anything about him, never seen him before, took shot him right through the temple, killed him deader than a door mat. Aunt Mattie, I‟ll show you my Aunt Mattie, and I got Uncle Albert. This is my family in here. You come right up here. There is my Aunt Mattie when she was twenty-seven years old; she was eighty-five when she died. This is my sister in the center here, she died two years ago. Right back, my Aunt Mattie owned them vinegar quarts back there. They were all a hundred years old, every one; we bought them brand new and gave them to her. Then she gave them to my sister in here. Interviewer: I knew your sister. Herbert: Did you? Interviewer: Sure, Mrs. Thrall, that‟s her right there. Herbert: No, that‟s Mrs. Beaton. Interviewer: This is Mrs. Thrall. Herbert: That‟s Mrs. Thrall, that‟s my sister in the center, you see. That‟s Dr. Beaton‟s wife there, and that‟s Dr. Beaton‟s child. Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: This is Mrs. Thrall‟s daughter. Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: Now, we had the Indians, you know where the orphan asylum is? Well, you go up to College Avenue and go down the hill to the creek, you know? Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: Down there, that was been a woods. Now, the government had set up a place for the Indians at Ada along the river bank. They gave them tents and gave them food, but they didn‟t have any wood to burn. So they had to come down here and gather wood. Right there at that creek on College Avenue, it goes up one hill; there are two different hills there. You know how it is there? Interviewer: Right at Leonard, College and Leonard? Herbert: Right down from Leonard, College Avenue, you go down there .Well, they didn‟t have no wagon to draw it. What do you suppose they done? �4 Interviewer: I don‟t know? Herbert: They went to work and cut down two trees, the roots of the trees they cut off around like that and the narrow parts acted as fills(?) for the horse, and they put the horse inside the fills there and they had a box on top of these two trees and instead of the wheels turning around they just dragged on ground from the roots of the trees, two roots on each side and they could lead the horse. Well, they filled the box with wood and drawn it out to Ada, where they had their place. Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: Comical and really quite a thing to see what did with the knowledge that they used to get that. And some nights and then afterwards, they would sell… it will come to me in a minute, a common thing. I am beginning to forget a lot of this stuff. My age is going against me. Anyhow they took all that stuff and drew it out there. And then in the middle of the winter, they…in January, you know how there is a January thaw, well, they came back after more. It was warmer weather and all the snow would go and that is why they called it Indian Summer. They would draw the wood out. They had it on the other side of the river. Along the river bank was where they had their reservation. Interviewer: Now, that‟s not there anymore, is it? Herbert: No, but it was until up to ten or fifteen years ago, there were some signs of it; a sign up there told where it was. Interviewer: Yes. Where did you grow up as a child, on Monroe Avenue? Herbert: No, we lived on College Avenue, see we lived up on North College Avenue, where we had five acres of land. And black bears, wild black bears, used to come out and eat our strawberries. Interviewer: Where abouts was that on College Avenue? Herbert: The house is still standing. Interviewer: Where is that? Herbert: You know where Spencer Avenue is? Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: Quimby Street, right between them two, on the east side of the street. The house is still standing. Pages lived there last I knew. Interviewer: That was quite a ways out in the country then, huh? �5 Herbert: Well, no it ain‟t so very far from where they were down to Plainfield Avenue, about a half a mile or so. Interviewer: At the time your father built the house? Herbert: He had a log house, and in the winter time my father used to build a cellar like outdoors, he dug a trench outdoors and lined it with straw and then put cabbage, potatoes and stuff like that into the cellar. And then he covered it over with dirt, straw then dirt over it. He left an opening where he could reach in, on this side and pull out cabbage or this side he could pull out potatoes. Then when we butchered, butchered your hog, we had this neighbor, we knew him real well. I forgot his name now, knew it real well when we butchered the hog we would give them half the hog. Then when they butchered one, they gave us half of it. We put half of it down in salt pork for us, and the other half of it we used for fresh meat. I had quite an experience. In the olden times the horse thief was caught stealing horses, they took him out and hung him. Hi Doty was the greatest horse thief of my time; he lived across the road from us on Spencer Avenue. And they came to me one day, when I was about twelve years old and they said they were going downtown to do some shopping, they had two sons and they took one son with them and they‟d be back at five o‟clock. And I didn‟t know he was a horse thief, our folks didn‟t know he was a horse thief, but he had about twenty horses in the pasture up about half a mile from where we were standing then. Hi Doty, and Bill Doty and the son who worked with him, Jay Doty worked with the mother and didn‟t steal or anything and the other two did. Well, two men came along and wanted to see Doty. And I told them he would be back at five o‟clock. So they said, “Do they have any horses? We want to buy some horses. We want to buy some horses.” I said, “Sure come on I‟ll show you.” And I took them down, and we went to this field and I left them there and they were writing down stuff. I didn‟t know what they were doing. Five o‟clock they drove in, Hi Doty drove into the yard, I ran down to tell him there were men there and they wanted to buy some horses. Men stepped out from behind there with revolvers and took him and sent him to jail. They got life. It was written up in the Grand Rapids Herald. Did you ever hear of the Grand Rapids Herald? Interviewer: Sure. The Grand Rapids Herald? Herbert: Two or three times in was written up. Two or three write ups, must be in the library by now, didn‟t mention my name. Interviewer: Oh. He got life imprisonment for that? Herbert: He got life in prison for that. Both he and his son, they were the ones that stole those horses, instead of hanging them, he got life in prison. Interviewer: What kind of name is that, Doty? Is that Irish name? �6 Herbert: No, I think he was a Yankee, an out and out Yankee. The Press, the Grand Rapids Herald had a number of write ups about him. Jay Doty, the famous horse thief. Herbert: I, I went to work I went downtown to work in eighteen ninety-five, near as I can remember. I went to work across from the Michigan Trust Company. You know where the Michigan Trust Company is? Interviewer: Yes Herbert: The corner of Ottawa there, a carpet store Smith and Sanford, where the Michigan Trust Company is now was an apple orchard. I saw them cut the trees down and build the (Michigan) Trust Company. I saw them build the old City Hall, that they‟re tearing down and I saw them build the old Court House. Took them five years to build the Court House, they didn‟t have enough money. The last argument was they had to put a cupola on it, like a church on top and they didn‟t have enough money. It cost four hundred dollars. They were fighting it as much as they could, and finally decided to do it. And the ones opposing it said, now I kind of forget…., let‟s see the ones opposing it said it would be a home for the doves. And they argued it over and anyhow they got the four hundred dollars and built the cupola and that night the doves move in. Interviewer: Now the City Hall was built in the eighteen eighties, wasn‟t it? Herbert: Yes. Interviewer: Were you working downtown then, how old were you when you went to work? Herbert: I must have been about fourteen years old… Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: …when I went downtown to work. Interviewer: You used to go down as a child. Herbert: Now here is where I have the advantage over everybody that wrote any books was, that the city limits first extended to Wealthy Avenue and to Sweet Street and then they kept extending it, see, and anybody living down on Wealthy Avenue didn‟t know what was happening at Sweet Street, cause there was no way to go unless you had a horse and wagon to travel. But us kids went everywhere you see, we went down to the south end and went to the north end. And we went on the river when the ice, iceskating on the ice up to Plainfield and back. Use to build, used to get lumber, wood out of the yards from the factories, the logging companies, see they were cutting up pine. Pine was ten dollars a thousand, that‟s what white pine was. And I went to work in the grocery store Lafoyes for a dollar a week and they give me my meals. I had to be there at six o‟clock in the morning and had to stay until nine o‟clock at night. And I had to come down Sunday and take the horse out to give him a drink to the well, water for him, and curry him all, clean out the stable and everything for him for a dollar a week. I worked until nine o‟clock �7 during the week and twelve o‟clock on Saturday nights. Then I went downtown to work, and I worked in this carpet store across where I was talking about, that was there near College Avenue and North Avenue and Spencer. Then I got in to fracas ….that pretty near cost me my life. Mr. Heyman was head man, Mr. [A. Amos] Raven was the general manager, a man named Rankins worked in the, was manager of the carpet department. I worked in the carpet department under Rankins. They caught Rankins out, I just am mentioning this, but they let him go. They gave me the job of manager of the carpet department. I got up to fifteen dollars a week and after that, Mr. Raven was the general manager and he and I were very friendly but this Rankins and he were not very friendly, they were fighting all the time. When he fired Rankins, why he put me in place of him in the carpet department at fifteen dollars a week. I worked a couple of years that way, when Mr. Raven was taken sick and whenever he went out to dinner or he went away anywhere, he called me downstairs to take charge. So when, I was appointed general manager and received quite a larger sum. There was a Hollander, he was the oldest one there and as a salesman he drew eleven dollars a week. And when they made me manager he quit working, he was so mad because they didn‟t make him, they used to make the oldest person in the institution a head instead of the best man they thought for it. When they made me general manager, why he quit his job and went and bought a dry goods store. He and I were always friends but he was sore at, he didn‟t get the job, you see. Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: I came on one day, Mr. Heyman was headman I was next, Bill Decator was next and he had a credit man he was next to okay sales. You‟d come in and buy two hundred fifty dollars worth of stuff and paid fifty dollars down, so much a week; he could okay the sale, if everything else was satisfactory. One day he okay‟d a sale that was five hundred and fifty dollars and one hundred and fifty dollars down and he took fifty dollars down and delivered the goods without the… I wasn‟t there that day, and he delivered the goods without the other hundred dollars. And he did it with only fifty dollars down. Well, doubt, he‟d have permission had I been there, but he took it upon himself. Anyhow the people didn‟t pay it and he delivered the goods. Then it was up against me to take over from there and sent over after the goods. And in come three men and three women, they were tough looking guys. One of them was a big guy. And I didn‟t know at that time, but do you remember Dillinger that was shot down by the FBI in Chicago? Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: Well, this guy was Dillinger‟s right hand man, robbing banks and one thing and another. He came in to see why I sent over after the goods and I told him. [He said,] “Well, I‟ll have that money tomorrow.” And I said, “That won‟t do, you promised it today and we want it today.” He said, “How the hell you going to get it?” I said, “We‟ll have to send over after the goods.” He said, “You‟re going after the goods?” And I said, “I don‟t know, I might. I‟m not sure what I would do.” And he said, “That will be the last trip you ever take.” He said, “I don‟t like the looks of your mug.” And I said, “I don‟t like yours either.” He says, “What are you �8 going to do?” I said, “I told you just what I was going to do and I‟m going to do it.” He pulled a gun out and stuck it in my chest and said, “I will blow your god damn guts out.” The girl cashier sitting on a high stool toppled off, [and] the colored man and colored woman run in the back room and I was there alone. I pulled the drawer open where the night watchman‟s revolver was and I let him see it. He said, “Pull out your gat, pull out your gat, we‟ll take ten paces here. I‟ll kill you deader than a door mat. I should have let you have it in the guts anyhow.” The others came all running down then and they grabbed a hold of „im and pulled him away and they went up and pretty soon he came down and said, “Buddy I‟ve been drinking.” And he said, “I‟m sorry and I want to apologize.” And I said, “That‟s all right, we all get that way.” He said, “Well if I hadn‟t been drinking I wouldn‟t have done it.” We shook hands and I went up with him. He said he would come in and pay it the next day. The next morning when the Grand Rapids Press came out, there was a robbery of the bank only one block from where we delivered the goods. So I knew right away who done it. So I went up and told Ab Carroll or who I told, but Frank O‟Malley, I forget now which one it was I told about it. But he said, “Okay we‟ll take over from here Hefferan.” Waited all day, didn‟t hear nothing from him, so it must have been the wrong people that I gave him the tip on. So I took three rigs and six men and sent them over to the place at night, about seven o‟clock, it was dark. And I told two of them to go up to the house and the rest to stop a block away from the house and two of them to go up to the house, and tell them they were there to make legal demand for the goods. If they didn‟t give it to them, we put it so we could re(?) them, see? Is it alright? Interviewer: Yes, go ahead. [END OF SIDE 1 31:10] Interviewer: Five men came out of the bushes? Herbert: Yes, they‟re five men and they had guns, and put them in their backs and stood them up against the wall. They asked them, you know, who they were and what they wanted. And they told him. They said, “Did Hefferan send you over here?” They said yes. “Well, come on, get away from here, these are our men they‟re detectives.” Interviewer: They were policemen, huh? Herbert: I didn‟t think, I gave him the right tip, see? They were hiding in the bushes around there waiting for these fellows to come back. The man that got the money, the one that was going to kill me, he took the money and went out of town. They got our men away and at twelve o‟clock they came home, these two brothers and three women, and they arrested them. And those two got life. Interviewer: Did they ever catch the other man? �9 Herbert: Well, I don‟t know what happened, let‟s see, he was the one that was going to shoot me is the one that shot the sheriff down in Indiana, released Dillinger and another fellow from the prison; this fellow that was going to shoot me. Interviewer: Hmmmm…. Herbert: So afterwards, he got into a mix-up and he went over to Wisconsin and there was a summer resort closed up but the help was still there, see? He and five others came over and took possession of it and the FBI heard about it and they worked a man in. Sent him in delivering some stuff in there and they kept him in there. They killed this FBI man, but before they did, the FBI man killed him, this fellow that was going to kill me. Interviewer: So, were they quite a few guns around in those days? Sounds like everybody was packing a pistol. Herbert: Yes, everybody had a gun. I‟ll tell you what we had more of anything then was, when the Civil War was over, then men brought back their old muskets, and in those days, they loaded them with powder and shot and a cap. And these soldiers, now for instance there was a mother that sent five sons, one of them got killed, and another had his legs taken off. The way they shot off his legs was they put a chain with a cannon ball on each end and put it in the cannon and they shot it and it went around and around and took the legs right off of one of the men. They were the Pages, the Page people. Page Street was named after them up on the north end. Afterwards he had a job down to Washington, as a door tender. He had wooden legs. He could take a pail of water and go up to a fence and go right over without spilling a drop. He used to do that as a feat. Interviewer: What was downtown like when you were working down there? Herbert: Well, they were all, I knew Grandpa Steketee, Grandpa Herpolsheimer. I knew Henry Spring, did you ever hear of Henry Spring? He was a great lady‟s man. He ran one store, and he was always dolled up and had a bouquet on every day and was a great lady‟s man. Henry, erFriedman, I knew all of them in my younger days. Interviewer: Were there people living above those stores downtown? Herbert: Live in what? Interviewer: Were people living in those buildings along down town those buildings? Herbert: Yes, they lived upstairs. if it were three story building with a three-story store they didn‟t do it, of course, but they lived up above over the stores. Mom and Dad nearly owned one at one time, had all the arrangements made and then backed out. Let‟s see, what can I tell you, else? Well, I‟ll tell you, when I was working in the grocery store I had to wash the windows and trim the windows on West Leonard Street between Scribner and Front, on the south side of the �10 street. I had a bunch of bananas I had to take down, and it was only about „that much‟ bananas, but it had a long stalk, you know how it curls out like that? Interviewer: Yes. Herbert: Well. I went to take it off and you had a rope from the ceiling and you put a knot here and you put a loop thru the bananas, hang them under that knot, you see. I went to take them off of there. While I was taking it off I shook out one of these spiders - tarantula. Interviewer: Tarantula, yes. Herbert: I shook him out and my arm was bare up to my elbow and lit on my arm and before I could knock him off he bit me. That was nine-thirty in the morning and by twelve at night, they told me they would let me know at twelve o‟clock if I would live or die. I spent quite an evening, and I went up there and the poison went this way, it was this hand right here, the fingers all swelled up. If it would have went towards the artery the other way, it would have gone to my heart and killed me. But it went this way and it saved me. The next morning they lanced me right there and black pus came out, just from that time in the morning at nine-thirty morning to the next morning at ten o‟clock, awful pain. Then I had a dog and there were a lot of rattlesnakes and it was nothing for us, we used to kill four to five rattlesnakes a day on College Avenue from Spencer Avenue up to Carrier Street there, Leonard Street. It was all stone in there, big stones, big as that bed you know, on the surface. Hot sun would heat up the stones, the snakes would come out on a cold day and lay on those stones. We used to go down and kill them, it was nothing to kill five or six of them. So one day, I was standing there and a rattlesnake struck at me. And my dog jumped between me and the rattlesnake. I had knee pants on and he jumped between me and the rattlesnake and the rattlesnake hit him right on the lip. One place, you could just [barely] see it. You know how they work; they got a sharp prong that they dive right into you and they squirt this poison into that, following in with that prong. What gets me is I never could understand how the damn snake can carry poison in his own head and not poison himself. Can you? Interviewer: I don‟t know, must have a sac that it is stored in. Herbert: Herbert: Must be something that prevents it from going to any dangerous part, but they have it in their head. My dog died that night, the next day we killed ten rattlesnakes. You can tell about the conditions of the country at that time. Lots of Blue Racers, and lots of Garter snakes. By the time I was going to St. Alphonsus. I am the oldest member of St. Andrews Church, and the oldest member of St. Alphonsus and the oldest member of St Thomas Church living today. One day I went to school and I took a Garter snake in my pocket and let him out in school, the sister grabbed up the Garter snake, she knew how to handle it, threw him out of doors and she said, “What will you think of next, anyway, what will you do anyhow?” She started to laugh, “The idea of bringing that snake, now what did you expect to accomplish by that? I said, “He got away from me.”No, you put him on the floor…” �11 You want anything out of town? Interviewer: Pardon, no, I kind of like to stay centering around Grand Rapids, if we can. Herbert: Around Grand Rapids? Do you want me to tell you about the stage coach robbery? Interviewer: Was that here in Grand Rapids? Herbert: No, it was in Yellowstone Park. Interviewer: Who robbed the stage? Herbert: Two soldiers. Interviewer: Huh! Herbert: Two American soldiers, quite interesting? Interviewer: Yeah? Tell me the story. (both laughing) Herbert: Well see, we travelled there. About a dozen coaches, one after the other, one following every so often then we would get to some place where there was something to see, why we would stay two hours for dinner. We would have our dinner and then we would go out and see the different springs, you know, Old Faithful and all of them. Well we were coming down, we came down a long stretch and we were seventh in a row, and we were held up. They came down this way and then they turned this way - north. Well some of them had been robbed before, and we were the next one up, we were here, and the others went. The first ones got down to the soldier‟s camp and they brought five soldiers back with them, armed and these fellows saw them coming and they dove into the Yellowstone River and started to swim across. And these five soldiers come up and got down on their knees and took aim them and shot all around them but didn‟t hit anybody. Those guys had waterproofed guns and when they got to the other side they begin to shoot back. We had to get out of the coaches and climb under the coaches to, for protection. Well, after we were all through with that, we started north, and made that turn north. When we got up a ways, there was a place where you could buy bread. And when you go on farther and there was a place where the black bears would come down. And they‟d come up to the stagecoach, and you‟d break off bread and feed it to them, see. Well, we got up that far when I was driving the horses; I was driving the horses for them then. A fellow taught me on the way up. I was driving the horses, we got up and here was a black bear and three little cubs ahead of them, two black bears and had three little cubs. A man ran out there and grabbed a hold of one of these cubs. The driver said give me those lines Hefferan, and get a club and another man and drive that bear off or he will kill that man just as sure as the world. I run down and got a fellow and got two clubs and by hollering see, scared him more than anything else. Anyhow before we could get to him, this bear got to him, he was holding the cub, his face was all exposed like that and she took the whole side of his face off. We were yelling and waving the clubs, we scared her �12 off. We picked him up and carried him back. I got him, I held him in the stagecoach, bleeding terribly and we went up to the hotel and brought him into the doctor and that‟s the last I ever seen him. Left at eight o‟clock in the morning, I don‟t ever know how he ever came out. Interviewer: Hmm. When was that, when did you make that trip out there? Herbert: I don‟t know. I have pictures of all of it. Another thing I went to see, I was down in El Paso. Have you been there? Interviewer: No. Herbert: The Rio Grande River runs around El Paso and the south side is Juarez, and the north side where El Paso is all up high on banks and their down below. Well, I had a friend that lived down there and wanted me to call on her when I came down. Well, I was on my way to California. I went and stayed at their place and then her husband sold goods to the… what is the fellow say of fighting the great war? Interviewer: Pancho Villa? Herbert: Yeah, Pancho Villa. They expected that night that he would cross over the river, well, he had to fight and he drove the Mexican government soldiers across the river. And the Americans put up a place a mile square, in two days, had cottages and everything for the soldiers that were driven across from the other side. It was given out that they were going to come across and attack the soldiers in this place where they built for them; the Americans had built for them. My friend said to me now, you are staying at the hote, said you have been staying in your hotel at night and up here during the day, but now you must come up here and stay at night also. We got to have all the men we can get because they are coming across to attack, and it will be a day and a half yet before the American soldiers can get in from their encampment. I said, alright, so I went up in the middle of the night, and I heard a commotion outside. They‟d asked me if I could use a gun, I said sure I can use a gun. There was a commotion outside so I got up and dressed the rest of the way, I wasn‟t all undressed. Then I went outside and there was soldier, a sergeant and five men and he had a Gatling gun, that‟s what they used to use years ago, you know? Interviewer: Yes, Herbert: In place of a cannon. I asked him, how about it, I‟ve got a gun inside but I don‟t know if you can use me or not? The man said no, we won‟t need you. I have five men here now, and every block down on the street I have a Gatling gun. We‟re up high and they„re down below, if they start anything we have it checked out like a checker board. Mine is number five all I got to do is fire in number five and in five minutes we will have Juarez wiped off the map. But they didn‟t, nothing happened. So the next day, nobody was allowed to go over to Juarez on account of, when you went over there they, if you were a stranger they grabbed you and took your clothes �13 all off, leave your underwear on and rob you of the money you had. So Mr. Heath, that was the man I was staying with at his house, he sold for a wholesale grocery. He had a big order from him, they had to get it [and] so he wanted to know if I wanted to go across with him. I said “Sure I‟ll go with you.” And he said, “I‟ll take care of you, alright.” We got going over there and going along on the street and they would stop us, he would say something in Spanish and they would leave us alone right away. We went up to this house, and Villa had his headquarters in the opera house and nobody that I knew of had seen Villa, everybody wanted to see Villa. He went into the courthouse, but I couldn‟t go in there with him, I had to stay outside. There were two Mexicans guarding, you know Mexicans are short, like Japanese but heavier; all their clothes didn‟t fit them in those days. There were two fellows with general‟s suits on and hats. Their suits didn‟t fit them, twice to big for them. And they had gone there and so, when he went in they began to talk to me, trying to ask me something. But I couldn‟t answer them because I didn‟t know what they said. They were so disgusted. And then Villa drove up, and I was as close to Villa as you are [to me]. Interviewer: Hmmm? Herbert: Everybody wanted to see Villa, and I was there looking right at him, waiting for him to come out. When he came out I told him those two guys there with the general suits on asking me, were trying to get something out of me and I don‟t know what they wanted. He said something in Spanish to them and he said they wanted a cigarette. So I gave them each a pack of cigarettes, I was smoking then. I don‟t smoke now. They bowed and bowed. And then when I left, he didn‟t attack, you know; he didn‟t attack across there. When I left he attacked a town just a mile and half below there and he killed a lot of Americans on the train. When I went on the train ahead of it, I took the train ahead of it and was alright and came back home. Interviewer: Yeah….. INDEX A H Albert, Uncle · 3 B Beaton Family · 3 D Decator, Bill · 7 Dillinger, John · 8, 9 Doty Family · 5, 6 Herpolsheimer, Grandpa · 9 Heyman Furniture Company · 2 Heyman, Mr. · 2, 7 M Mattie, Aunt · 3 Michigan Trust Company · 6 �14 P Pantlind Hotel · 1 R Rankins, Mr. · 7 Raven, A. Amos · 7 St. Alphonsus Church · 11 Steketee, Grandpa · 9 Stonehouse, Mr. and Mrs. · 2 T Thrall, Mrs. · 3 V S Smith, Joe · 2 Villa, Pancho · 12, 13 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f5b1dc91a9515f4be79c621c16e3376b.mp3 6d4ba3b295654fa4e89cf173b95042a8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_37Hefferan Title A name given to the resource Hefferan, Herbert Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hefferan, Herbert Description An account of the resource Herbert Hefferan was born on January 16, 1875 in Grand Rapids. He knew Grandpa Stekete and the Herpolsheimers. He worked at Smith & Sanford. He traveled to California and had experiences involving Pancho Villa and John Dillinger's gang. He died in 1972. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a5cf2e9133281c0c91e0d8436e84e654.pdf 8e9ebcafff6f84f679ca743ac4d8b9a7 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 C. C. Travis Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Interviewed on November 12, 1971 Tape #36 (29:32) Biographical Information Charles Clinton Travis was born 5 February 1891 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He was the son of James M. Travis and Marcia E. Dunton. James was born in Virginia about October, 1845 and died in Grand Rapids in November, 1925. Marcia was born in Wisconsin about 4 February 1854, the daughter of William Dunton and Diana R. Wright. C. C. Travis was married to Rosell Thomasma in Grand Rapids on 5 June 1924. He died 21 November 1977 in Grand Rapids. His wife Rose was born about 1898 in Michigan and died 2 November 1972. C. C. and Rose are both buried in Woodlawn Cemetery. __________ Interviewer: This interview with C.C. Travis was recorded November twelfth, nineteen seventyone. C. C. Travis: Here, just a minute, may, let me, I wrote some of this down. Charles Clinton Travis, nobody knows me as Clinton. Everyone knows me as C.C. Charles… Known as C.C. Travis, born February fifth eighteen ninety-one. Home was the corner of Ottawa and Michigan. We had an artesian well in the basement overflowed down, so down Michigan or, that was an open stream Michigan right down to the river. Imagine what that was at that time. Then… Interviewer: It was actually open stream that flowed right down the hill? C. C. Travis: Yes, that was before the, then they had cobblestone and then they finally put a rail up there cobblestone, so the horses could have a footing to get up the hill, you see. Michigan was a steep hill. And with cobblestone, then finally put the horse carts on the, tracks in there, by then there was, they had the tracks which made better wheeling for the horses. Interviewer: What, what did they do with the, if that stream was flowing openly down the hill, what did they eventually do with that, where did that stream go? C. C. Travis: I don’t know, I don’t know. Our, I never actually saw an open stream down Michigan except in a hard rain or anything like that. But there was a drainage from our well, from the basement there that, that evidently did have a little trickle down, down probably the curb of the street or something like that there. Because they had to cobblestone. Ottawa’s was a cedar block pavement and the hill was a cobblestone pavement so the horses could get a better footing. And they had trouble when a flood came in there, the darn cedar blocks floated out, �2 floated out on top of Ottawa Street. They had to do a lot of extra paving there. Because that, didn’t work, that was too slippery, for the hill. But the cobblestone, that was a kind of noisy as hell, you can imagine, every once in a while the horses get tired or they run away, not a runaway, but a loose wagon would come down, clackety, clackety and on, down Michigan, and now that’s a long thing. The darn things would sometimes run right through to the river. And there was, then on the cobblestone, road it’s, the stones are only about that big, see? Interviewer: Yes. C. C. Travis: So that a…. Interviewer: Well, that flood you were talking about did that, the Grand River used to flood pretty frequently? C. C. Travis: Oh yes, periodically. Interviewer: And the water would come up as far up on the hill as….. C. C. Travis : No, it wouldn’t come up our, as far as we are but, dad had artisan springs, Dad had water in the basement of his store, on Canal Street and, I’ve seen several floods of Canal Street there which was Monroe Avenue, lower Monroe. But it never came up much farther than that. Interviewer: I see, what kind of a store was it, that your father operated? C. C. Travis: Well, dad came and, you would call it an antique shop but was a second hand store. He bought and sold everything, anything. And he had quite a reputation; he had three stores, three floors and a basement. You can imagine that, I think there probably more families here in, ‘cause they have some of their fine mahogany and antiques in Dad’s store many years ago. Blodgetts, and I don’t want to mention any names, but the, people that liked real antique furniture in, he had a little Dutchman there in the store that knew all the immigrants that came in. The first thing they wanted to do is get Golden Oak furniture and so they’d trade their mahogany and their walnut and their fine antiques, there wasn’t, there weren’t. Dad didn’t feel that he was doing them any justice with it but they got exactly what they wanted. They wanted Golden Oak. Interviewer: What is Golden Oak exactly? C. C. Travis: Golden Oak is just exactly what it is. It’s oak, oak furniture with a finish like this. [Knocking on table] And that was… Interviewer: Yes, I’ve seen a lot of this… C. C. Travis: …and carved, the, it was, a lot of it was very beautifully carved, because they had a lot of hand carvers, machine carving wasn’t known then. And everything was hand carved and it was really beautifully decorated and beautifully carved, but oak was, they weren’t importing a lot of mahogany, they did some. But that was called the Golden Oak Age and everybody had �3 beautiful golden oak. And the people that came over, a lot of the people brought their furniture, fine mahogany and walnut furniture from abroad and would, would want to trade it in for golden oak. And so Dad had three stores, a basement and bought a circus one time, he gave all the animals, alligators and bears and everything to the Soldier’s Home. And, but the furniture was beautiful furniture. Interviewer: What, what did the Soldier’s Home do with, do with the animals? C. C. Travis: Oh, they had a cage out there, they caged, that was our Sunday, that was when they had, finally had streetcars out there and we’d go out and see the bears and the raccoons and some of the animals that Dad had contributed to the Soldier’s Home. And it’s, he had trained bear down in the basement of the store. Interviewer: A trained bear? C. C. Travis: well, maybe a tame bear. And he gave it to the Soldier’s Home finally. Interviewer: Well, where did he keep the bear down in the basement for? C. C. Travis: It was for curiosity. Interviewer: Bring people into the store? C. C. Travis: The bear was a good friend of his. Tame bear. They’re funny, you know. A tame bear is, is really quite something, I guess. I used to go down and play with him. Interviewer: I’ve never seen one before. C. C. Travis: Well, they’d have a good collar on them, don’t you know and, but it was, it was so tame that, when you go out to Soldier’s Home why the bear seemed to know Dad I mean, he would come and pet him, and so I, as I say it was, it was a pretty well named, Everything on Earth. That was the, that was his slogan and my sister made a very nice, I wish I had one of the letterheads, a letterhead, ‘Everything on Earth Jim Travis'. And he’d buy a tent, you could buy, well is a, as your city grows, at that time when you stop to think of it, pre-Civil War and after Civil War, we had quite an influx of, of, very wealthy people come to Michigan. Your lumber industries and all that brought a lot of wealth to it. And, they brought some of their fine furniture out here, too. And they wanted to trade it, why or they got stuck with something, why dad would buy anything. And he would trade. Interviewer: Where, where did you, grow up as a child? Where was your family home located? C. C. Travis: Michigan and Ottawa. Interviewer: Did your father build that house there or was it, had…. C. C. Travis: No, his aunt was, one of his relatives built it. �4 Interviewer: When did they finally tear that, were there other houses in that area, too? C. C. Travis: Yes, all, right in the back was a, I think it was a relative of Dad’s. And then there was a shoemaker that was on Ottawa Street. It was next to us there. Then Dad, after the Civil War, and this, all of this after the Civil War, he started the store on, at that time Canal Street. And, he’d buy anything and sell it; he did a tremendous business in tools. Gee, some of the people would bring, over they’d have tools and stuff like that once in a while need money, they’d sell their tools and furniture and as I say he probably sold more antiques to the houses in Grand Rapids here, the Blodgetts and early families. Interviewer: This, when did the house on Michigan and Ottawa come down? C. C. Travis: When the brewery… Interviewer: When was that? C. C. Travis: Brewery took it over. Oh, was quite a few years ago. Interviewer: That… was that, what eventually became Fox Deluxe Brewery? C. C. Travis: Yes, yes that was the original brewery. That was Grand Rapids, I think it was Grand Rapids Brewery but we were right next door and Dad’s very good friends, friends of the gang. And, but it’s, they were, the brewery was formed there due to the spring. Due to the fine water they had. Brewery depends on good water. Interviewer: Yes. C. C. Travis: And, so that, and then we had, we had an actual artesian well in the, in the basement, got pretty wet there sometimes, too. But that was part of the thing, his, his relative, Aunt somebody, I can’t remember the name, but, built the house on, on, at that time it was Ottawa and Bridge and then Bridge was changed to Michigan. Interviewer: You have some brothers, or some sisters that you, did you have some brothers, too? C. C. Travis: I didn’t have any brothers, no, but I had, three sisters. Now, Calla, the older one, her, her dancing school started when she was in high school and lived on, Michigan and Ottawa. And she had taken dancing lessons and she was the only one that knew the, knew the range of, of social dancing and acting dancing and she had quite a school there. Original Travis School of Dancing was on Michigan and Ottawa. And then she had it, came to, out here on, I think the next one was on Madison and then a school here and she went to, she had a, she had a, school in, out in Lansing and Kalamazoo, Muskegon and sometimes she went to Detroit. Interviewer: So she, she had like a regular chain of dancing schools? �5 C. C. Travis: Yes. Very successful, Calla Travis, whenever think of Calla Travis, why they think of her dancing. Interviewer: Yes, was that a pretty important activity for the young people in those days… C. C. Travis: Yes. Interviewer…social dancing? C. C. Travis : Yes, it was and more people learned the, learned the social graces, she was quite, very exact and there wasn’t any fooling or anything like that and the parents well we are glad to have, you have our kids for a couple of hours and, and really teach them something we can’t teach them. Which are manners, I mean the dancing is, well she took over the Saint Cecelia, she kept the Saint Cecelia here busy pretty near five days a week. And she had the school there Saturday, two or three times. And then she took over the, all, whatever her, her studio was where the art institute is now. Interviewer: Was it in that… C. C. Travis: A little old stone building…[Truman H. Lyon house at 220 E. Fulton] Interviewer: Oh, the one next door. C. C. Travis: Well, she had, that was the original stone buildings there. And she has that as her studio for years. And which was a very interesting place. Interviewer: Well, that little stone building down there, that, would that where, have been close to all the residential areas of the city? I mean… C. C. Travis: Oh yes, there were residential, there was residences all, that, that was quite a resident area. Interviewer: Down along Jefferson and … C. C. Travis: Jefferson and Fountain Street, some of those very fine old homes along Fountain and Fulton. That was a very good area. We came out, well then, then it went, then it went south and we had one house, I don’t remember that, down here but, we bought here a few years ago. And these houses out here are built like the rock of Gibraltar, The, the timber that you see up in the attic here is, two-by-fours are really two-by-fours. It’s quite amazing the stuff that they built them with. Interviewer: Who built this house? C. C. Travis: I think the, I think the early people, [Martin] Dregges built it; lumberman must have built because the, the stuff in the attic there is beautiful pine. And… �6 Interviewer: You have it divided into apartments now. C. C. Travis: We have six apartments here. You can see the height of the ceiling; you don’t build a house like this anymore. Interviewer: How high is that ceiling? C. C. Travis: Well, I think it’s a good twelve, I think it’s a good twelve feet; twelve or thirteen feet. It had, it has a fireplace in the basement, has a fireplace on the second floor and next door apartment here on the other side. And we have six apartments here now. Interviewer: Was it divided into apartments when you bought the house. C. C. Travis: Yes, we did some of it but, the Dregges, the Dregges, owned it for awhile, the lumberman. And, but they didn’t build it, I’ve got a, I got some of the story out; I’m going to get it because it was built quite a long time ago and, beautifully built. Interviewer: Yes, what, where did you go to school when you were growing up? Did your family, how long was it that you lived down there on Michigan and Ottawa? C. C. Travis: I was, I went to kindergarten at Michigan and Ottawa and through, I didn’t go through the first, then we moved, on out, let’s see where did we move? Well, we moved out here and I don’t think I was there, then I went to Madison school for a while, yes, we had, we had, yes we did, we had, we bought the Dregges place. Did you know the Dregges in the lumber business? And it wasn’t, it wasn’t this house I don’t think, but the whole house was finished in beautiful sycamore and oak, from Michigan woods. And, I went to, I went to kindergarten at the Madison, or LaGrave Street School over there, had kindergarten, I went to kindergarten there and I think I had the first grade at Madison. And what else? Interviewer: Where did you go to high school, up to…? C. C. Travis: Central. Interviewer: Central? C. C. Travis: Central High, yes. Interviewer: Did you go to college after high school? C. C. Travis: What? Interviewer: Went right into business? C. C. Travis: No, no, I went, I was very fortunate. I had early experience in furniture designing. I worked, I was very interested in furniture, and I had, I got a job as an apprentice in designing with Arthur Teal who was one of the fine designers when he, he designed Stickley and several of �7 the other big factories here. And, I must have about five or six or seven years of furniture design and making rods and doing copies. I never actually had a furniture account of my own, but I worked with, with artists like Art Teal, who was a wonderful man. We had the Stickley account. And I worked with another one where we Berkey, some of Berkey and Gays work. And… Interviewer: What did you, after you finished your apprenticeship? C. C. Travis: Well, I was, I then went into, studied architecture and I had an apprenticeship with Pierre Lindhout in an architect, and then through that, we had quite a few houses to work out and I got interested in interior work and, I worked with Arthur Teal who was a furniture designer and a decorator. And, well I had my experience in decorating through him. Interviewer: This company that you mentioned before Applegate-Travis. C. C. Travis : Well Travis-Applegate Company then, I left, I left there and, had a opportunity through our experience with many of the furniture companies and I was offered a job of purchasing agent and I went from there to, I was head purchasing agent for Robert Irwin Company. Which is one of the fine ones, because I had experience in lumber and veneers and stuff that made good furniture. And I was purchasing agent there for about five years, at Robert Irwin Company. Interviewer: Well, then you spent a… C. C. Travis: Robert Irwin Company had, had Grand Rapids Furniture Company, the Robert Irwin Company, the Royal Furniture Company and the Macey Company, and there was a time there when I was a lumber and veneer buyer for all of them. And that was a good million dollar business, I mean we had quite a little responsibility to keep those plants in tune with their different specifications of lumber and veneer and plywood and, and so I had a very wonderful training in that. And then when an opportunity came to go out and think about doing your own business, George Applegate, who was with one of the other companies, and I hooked up together and formed the Travis-Applegate Company. Interviewer: What kind of business was that? C. C. Travis: Paneling, lumber, plywood and veneer. Interviewer: Well, then you spent, you spent all of your working life in or involved with the furniture business. C. C. Travis: That’s right…. Interviewer: What, can you tell me a little about how big the furniture business was at one time? And how important it was to the community? �8 C. C. Travis: Oh, it was very important, I mean, our companies were with, well one of our big companies of course, when I left the Robert Irwin Company and Phoenix [Furniture], I was on very good terms with Mr. Irwin and the gang there because I was purchasing agent there. I’d had experience as purchasing agent and that’s one, that’s really is a training because you have to meet a lot of people, you have to know your materials, and my specialty was lumber and veneer. So that I was well equipped as a salesman for that product. And we had some very good accounts. Interviewer: What was it that, well, kind of ended the furniture business here in the city, I mean it’s still producing furniture but, it’s certainly not the furniture capital of the world, anymore. C. C. Travis: Well, I think it was the inroad of the southern plants mechanizing, Grand Rapids, I think was, I don’t want to be quoted in that, but I think Grand Rapids was a little slow in taking up complete mechanization, in machinery. Although that’s a machine made piece right…is against the, the craftsmanship that Grand Rapids had become known for. We had some very wonderful carvers here, one of these, I’m I remember over a Robert Irwin Company when I was purchasing there, there they had a tremendous staff of very wonderful carvers. And some of the fine, Royal, Royal was the top line at that time. Royal Furniture Company was of Mr. Irwin. And you got to hand it to him, he has the, he had the, well I bought, he had the Royal, was the top, and the Phoenix, The Grand Rapids Furniture Company and Macey Company all fell in line of the with the Irwin, of the Irwin factories. Interviewer: Well, did they, I’m just conjecturing here but, if I mean Grand Rapids for some reason which I’ve never been able to determine, did attract a large number of Dutch people and a lot of these people that would come over and were craftsmen… C. C. Travis: That’s right. Interviewer: …would work in the furniture companies. C. C. Travis: That’s right Interviewer: Now were they a… C. C. Travis: They were good woodworkers and carvers. Interviewer: Where, what, what kind of wages, would they have made in those days? C. C. Travis : I don’t have too much idea, I don’t think it was too much I don’t, I don’t think that, I think they were paid a good, a good scale because they, they made a good living and they brought their family, they certainly had large families. And, not only that but their large families and, and they made darn good citizens. They didn’t have to go out and knock somebody over the head to get an income or bring them down they were, they were honest workers and they, I think, I don’t think they, I don’t think the scale of a woodworker was equal to some of the scales of that �9 later developed in the automotive field. I think the woodworking was, but it was, it was a pretty good scale and, and good craftsmanship, they were paid, the carvers in Grand Rapids were paid, very well for the, for their artistry. Interviewer: Did the automobile business have any effect on the furniture industry? C. C. Travis: Oh, yes, had a lot. I think, it raised the price of labor and, it was, can’t you can’t, can’t blame certain period, where there’s quite an exodus of talent from Grand Rapids into the automobile, because they had to have, they had, for a design of a new automobile. That thing would be blocked up with wood. And the carvers and the craftsmanship of a rod maker and a pattern maker was , was way up that was one, that was the highest, one of the highest scales, paid scales in the furniture, in the woodworking industry. Why sometimes the pattern maker who could, who could carve and shape the, because an automobile doesn’t have very many square corners in it you know. Interviewer: Yes. C. C. Travis: And that whole car is made first out of wood, with a pattern. So the pattern makers of, who, of the skill of the pattern makers in the furniture industry were taken up, very rapidly in the automotive. Interviewer: Yes, Someone, I think it was Mr. Siegel Judd, the attorney was telling me that, he felt that the automobile business also had an effect on the insurance, or on the furniture industry, in that they, paid, a higher wage than was offered in the furniture factories, and it attracted a lot of the young men that would have nor, in days before the automobile would have followed their father’s footsteps, learned the trade and, taken up the same trade as their father but they were drawn away from that, into the automobile business by the five dollars a day wage. C. C. Travis: That’s right, I think that’s true. On the other hand, you can say that, that influence wouldn’t be too bad on the success of any community to have a means of, of establishing a higher rate. I thought, I never, I never accused anybody of paying anybody too much. I think the, the furniture industry was something that had to meet that competition. Because a rod maker and a pattern maker in furniture is maybe they didn’t get the money that a pattern man made in the automotive but just due to that demand for that, stuff they, they had to pay them. Interviewer: Yes, C. C. Travis: And that’s, that was pretty, that was pretty steep competition because you can’t tell, you can’t furniture outside, well, for piano, piano work was probably the top piece of wood furniture in the whole field because that, that bent work in the, work on a piano there is really something. And a man who could get a job in a, in a piano factory was, felt himself pretty lucky. On the other hand, the fine furniture of the old Royal Furniture Company and, and some of these fancy carvers were very well paid. They were really artists. But it was a demand, just like any �10 business. The, the demand and the scarcity of labor or the fullness of labor was, set the pace. But the furniture man, the furniture management, I don’t think the furniture management ever saw, or ever took the initial step to make furniture a high paying industry in labor. Interviewer: Yes. C. C. Travis: In any, in any work it’s a supply and demand that worked it, but, some of the fine carvers and the fine artists in the furniture today were doing very well. And that was a trade that was very desirable. Interviewer: Why do you think that, a furniture industry here in Grand Rapids was slower to mechanize then southern factories? C. C. Travis: I don’t know; I don’t know the answer to that. I think it was, personally, I think it was, a man that has a factory and is going along with hand-made stuff, a lathe or a carver, they have, they have all, you’ve got automatic carving now that weren’t heard of outside of pattern. The pattern maker was the top man in the factory. You could make that pattern, make a machine to duplicate that carve or turning was an automated thing. Very, very little hand turning, so that the man that made the pattern did a good job and the man that just pushed a button and pushed it out, why, that was a second rate job. You know it, it’s a demand and, just like anything else, the demand for talent, or the demand for anything else, when there’s a scarcity of good talent why somebody’s going to come in there and a do a little more on it. Don’t you think so? I mean that’s, that’s my experience with the thing. And you’ve seen it in the furniture industry. Interviewer: Yes. INDEX A J Applegate, George · 7, 8 Judd, Siegel · 9 B L Blodgett Family · 2, 4 Lindhout, Pierre · 7 C M Central High School · 6, 7 Macey Company · 7, 8 D Dregges Family · 6 �11 R Soldier’s Home · 3 Robert Irwin Company · 7, 8 Royal Furniture Company · 7, 8, 10 T S Travis, Calla (Sister) · 4, 5 Travis, James M. (Father) · 2, 3, 4 Travis-Applegate Company · 7, 8 Saint Cecelia Music Society · 5 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bad21758a619c08edb12edf45e27ae34.mp3 74cf11e2e2f0816696517dafbddbdad4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_36Travis Title A name given to the resource Travis, C.C. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Travis, C.C. Description An account of the resource Mr. Travis was born on February 5, 1891. His father owned an antique and furniture store on Canal Street (now Monroe). Mr. Travis went to Central High School, but did not attend college. He was later a purchasing agent for Applegate Furniture Company. Mr. Travis died on November 22, 1977. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/715b8df24c4015422ac94ed6a17edba0.pdf 1262444b551bc9ac4117f8debdd2b219 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC- 23 Mr. David Hunting Interviewed November 12, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape # 35 (1:00:00) Biographical Information David Dyer Hunting was born in Grand Rapids 26 August 1892. He was the son of Edgar W. Hunting and Grace Emma Dyer. David died in Grand Rapids on 19 April 1992 and was buried in Woodlawn Cemetery. David Hunting married Mary V. Ives in Ann Arbor, Michigan on 25 May 1925. Mr. Hunting was one of the founders of Metal Office Furniture Company which is now Steelcase, Inc. Edgar, David’s father was born about August 1862 in Grand Haven, Michigan. Grace Dyer was born about May 1869 in Missouri. They were married in 1891. ___________ Interviewer: Were you born in Grand Rapids Mr. Hunting? Mr. Hunting: I was born in Grand Rapids on College Avenue between Wealthy and Cherry in eighteen ninety-two. At that time, there were no houses between College Avenue and Madison and there was a diagonal walk or path that ran across the two lots and across Morris Avenue to the corner of Madison which we used to go to and from the Wealthy Avenue School at Lafayette Street. Interviewer: That school, that school’s still there, isn’t it? Mr. Hunting: The school is still there. It’s been remodeled somewhat but, that was a school that served the entire area, that I grew up and played in. Interviewer: Were there, were there other houses in this block that you lived in? Mr. Hunting: At that time there was a Tetium house on the corner of Cherry and College and the Shaw house on College Avenue and between the Shaw house and Wealthy Street there was only one other house which was later occupied by the D.C. Scribner family. On the east side of College Avenue, there were several houses. The street was pretty well built up from Cherry Street down to the middle of the block. There was the Wilson house, the Gilbert house, the Maddox house, the Twing house, the Hunting house, the Waddell house and the Murray house. Those were all practically along in succession. And then further down were some other houses. When I was growing up, and was going to school there were forty-one children on that block. Interviewer: Did, did all the children know each other, play with each other? �2 Mr. Hunting: Oh, we played together constantly. Other Man: Tell them about the black girl you grew up with. Mr. Hunting: About what? Other Man: The black girl that you grew up with, that little black girl, the only one who could recite the poetry as well as you could. Mr. Hunting: Yeah. Interviewer: What’s her name? Mr. Hunting: Theola Ford. At that time, Paris Avenue was pretty well built up too and the Wilcox family moved from their farm out on Lake Drive into the city for the winter and took a house on College Avenue directly behind the Murray house. The other families lived along on Paris that we grew up with were the Palmer family, the Wilcox family, the Shank family, the Seymour family, and we all played together. Also the Spencer and Baker families were there. One of the things I most remember was building a cave in a vacant lot opposite us. As a boy we had a big table over there which served as a headquarters for a group of boys with a long tunnel exit to a clump of trees so we could escape if we were trapped in the cave. That was the type of activity that we seemed to have. And I remember at the time of the Spanish American War we were greatly discussing, among ourselves, what we would do if we were in Cuba or if Cubans invaded Grand Rapids, Michigan. Interviewer: What was this, that John mentioned to us, young black girl, Theola Ford. Mr. Hunting: Oh, going through school, at Wealthy Street, Miss Blanchard taught the first grade and Miss Martine the second grade, Miss Cole the fourth grade, and there at that time was only one black girl in school and she was the daughter of Joe Ford, the passenger agent, assistant porter down there. Theola Ford, and she was probably the brightest girl in the class. I remember one of our second grade requirements was to learn Hiawatha and she could recite the entire poem of Hiawatha verbatim. We always had a terrific competition between Theola Ford and myself, eee who could remember the longest portions. Interviewer: What ever happened to her? Mr. Hunting: I don’t know, I don’t know. She moved out of town. I don’t know. She went all the way through grammar school and then to high school with distinguished marks. Interviewer: Were there, were there very many black people in the city at that time? Mr. Hunting: Very few. But the ones that were there we all knew, and were very friendly with. Weren’t very many. �3 Interviewer: Did they, did they have a neighborhood of their own? Mr. Hunting: There wasn’t any particular neighborhood. It was mostly down on Sheldon between Wealthy and Franklin, and perhaps a very few across Division street but very few. Interviewer: What did you remember the first time you ever saw an automobile? Mr. Hunting: Yes, the first, about the first one, I had much familiarity with was when the Russell family, who lived out at Comstock Park bought a Ford and that was when I was in grade school. And I used to ride in that car with Fran Russell a good deal. Then the Keeler family bought a Lozier with chain drive and Mr. Will Gay bought a White Steamer, which rode up and down College Avenue and the Austin family started to develop a car called the Austin, which was an assembled car with coachwork mostly supplied locally but a very well regarded car. Always in white with brown trim. And for quite a while the Austins were a recognized automobile made in Grand Rapids. Interviewer: Where was that factory located? Mr. Hunting: That was on Division Street, between Cherry Street and Oakes, I believe. Right in that area somewhere. It no longer stands. I completed the eighth grade in Wealthy Street School and went into the old Central High School on the corner of Ransom and Lyon. We went at morning and afternoon to that school walking from College Avenue to Lyon Street and Ransom, four times a day. And then playing football we would leave the school in the afternoon and go to the old YMCA building, change in our football clothes, walk across Pearl Street Bridge to a vacant lot where there is a freight boarding station now, along Fulton and Front Street, practice there till six o’clock, walk back to the Y, take a shower, walk home up State Street hill to College Avenue. Interviewer: It’s a little different than today, isn’t it? Mr. Hunting: I imagine, I imagine we got more exercise walking than most people do today playing football. Interviewer: Were sports very important at that time in school? Mr. Hunting: Yes, we had a good sport activity. We had, our big game was with Muskegon. We played Benton Harbor, Kalamazoo, and in basketball we had a very good team and played in the YMCA gymnasium, and had a long season of basketball. Interviewer: What, what was this neighborhood that you grew up in? Was this a neighborhood of well-to-do families? Mr. Hunting: Well, I wouldn’t say they were well-to-do, but that were comfortably well-off. There were no very wealthy families there as I regarded at the time at least we weren’t conscious �4 of any, any distinction of that kind in that entire neighborhood. But up, we did feel that up on the Lafayette hillside area the more wealthy families had their home like the Hazletine's and the Holt’s and the Hollister's and the Lowe's and the Blodgett’s. Interviewer: So they, they lived all up on the, in the, what’s a really the hill district up on Fountain and Lafayette and that area? Mr. Hunting: That’s right. Interviewer: Did, did the children in your neighborhood, the forty-one children in your neighborhood associate with the children in the Hill district? Mr. Hunting: Oh yes. Interviewer: So there wasn’t any discrimination of… Mr. Hunting: No, feeling any way. The Bundy family, the White family all had children, we played tennis a lot together and saw each other quite a little bit. Interviewer: Were there very many parties when you were growing up? Mr. Hunting: There were a lot of parties and they were quite formal parties and Mrs. Bissell always gave a dance in the evening during Christmas vacation for all the young people. That was one of the big events we looked forward to at Christmas time. Interviewer: Then that was a formal affair? Mr. Hunting: That was formal, and usually in the St. Cecelia ballroom. Interviewer: Some of the people that I’ve interviewed have said that there was no liquor or very little liquor served at parties, really evidence of… Mr. Hunting: I, I never saw any alcohol served at any party till, well after I was out of college. Interviewer: So did, did the kids you grew up with drink at all? Mr. Hunting: Not at all. Not at all, and it wasn’t till after I got out of College that I saw any beer drinking in Grand Rapids. Interviewer: That’s curious. What, what did the young people do for entertainment outside of the parties? Mr. Hunting: They would organize small dances. We had a one group of dances which we called P A Y E group. Pay as you enter where we’d donate enough money to buy a little music, piano player and a violin perhaps and dance in somebody’s ballroom, usually in the Huntley Russell �5 house. We had picnics, we had treasure hunts, we had a great deal of social activity in skating. Skating and tobogganing was very popular. This was before skiing became a recognized activity. Interviewer: The Russell Family now, Huntley Russell where did they live? Mr. Hunting: They loved out at Comstock Park but a Francis Russell and Lucius Boltwood who lived there both came to the Wealthy Avenue School. And they would eat their lunch at one of their relatives on Madison or Morris. Interviewer: I see, the time, in other, no liquor well, no liquor at all I guess, How does that time compare, the time you were growing up compare to the time, for example, that your own children were growing up? Mr. Hunting: Well I think we had much simpler tastes and much less was done for us than was done for my children. I remember you could get an ice-cream soda for a nickel and when I first ate a banana split, it was fifteen cents, and that was quite an event to do that. When the summer time we had the Ramona Theatre, vaudeville. And that was an entertainment to do for an evening to go there and do some of the, some of the activities, in door skating rink, or roller coaster, features like that that were around the Ramona Theatre. Interviewer: What, what do you think that the time that you were growing up, was a slower paced way of living than today? Mr. Hunting: Oh it was much slower because you walked everywhere. When we first had our fraternity party at the new Kent Country Club out north of here at its present location, we would rent a street car to bring everyone home from the party and a great question was whether the car should run up Cherry Street or run up Wealthy in order to come to the nearest, to the homes of the people that went to the party. And at that time I remember we were, Sandy [Sanford] Wilcox, and I were taking two girls, the girl’s mother objected to her riding out in a Wilcox carriage. She thought she should go in the streetcar with everybody else. The girls always would carry their slippers in a bag and wear their regular shoes and overshoes till they got to the party. Interviewer: Well, I remember I was, I think it was Mrs. Avery that I was talking to, she was talking about, like dating customs, holding hands for example was considered, according to Mrs. Avery, was not the thing to do at all. Mr. Hunting: If you were able to hold a girl’s hand walking home why you thought you’d made quite a little progress. And certainly you didn’t want to be seen doing it. Interviewer: Yeah, what, what do you think that changed the way of living from that period of time to today. What, what was the big change? And when did it change? Mr. Hunting: I can’t tell because I haven’t been in a teaching business or any business where I saw the gradual change develop. It’s a complete change in, standards, conventions, and I see it �6 reflected in other ways that, there’s reluctance for people—unless they have to, to dress properly to sit down and eat, eat in the manner in which I was accustomed to eat, slowly and, everyone sit at the table until everyone was finished. It now has almost become a counter-grab and people do not like to take the time to go through a full meal in company with other people. I don’t, I can’t see where the complete change in young people’s relationships occurred. There seems to be a great desire now to show people their affection for each other and to act in a manner that normally they would feel, I mean that in older times they would feel should be reserved for privacy. I don’t know whether that really means a desire to be seen with people in affectionate poses, or in a boastful manner, or because they really can’t wait till they are alone. What do you think? Interviewer: I don’t know, it’s hard for me to, to talk about something like that because I never grew up in an, in an age where holding a girl’s hand was making quite a bit of progress. Yes, it’s very interesting that, that the way the society was then when you were growing up compared to the way it is today. It sounds like they had many differences. Mr. Hunting: Well it is, there’s, there’s a great difference. I… parents had much firmer control over their children; they knew what they were doing because the children were with them more. They couldn’t get out of sight. They couldn’t get in a car and disappear for the day and couldn’t be reached anymore. Now, you can’t tell where you children are because the mobility is so great that they can either go on their own or with somebody, and once gone they’re gone. And the activity no longer is centered in the house, like ours was. Interviewer: A question that I haven’t asked anybody yet, yet… I suppose it didn’t come along until a little later was, about the airplanes. When did, when was, do you remember the first airplane you ever saw? Mr. Hunting: Yeah, the first airplane was brought here by fellow named Bill Turpin, it was a graduated Phi Delta Theta in Ann Arbor and he would give exhibitions at the fair of flying an airplane and he just would go from fair to fair, to fly an airplane. That was before the First World War. In the First World War airplanes became rather common but it was six or eight years prior to the First World War, airplanes were infrequently seen and the only places they could fly from would be at a county fair or on a race track. Interviewer: Did you go out for the First World War? Mr. Hunting: I was in the First World War; I was in Europe for about eighteen months. I was first Lieutenant of infantry and I trained at Fort Sheridan, Camp Custer and spent the rest of the time in Europe. Interviewer: Was there quite a bit of patriotism? �7 Mr. Hunting: Oh yes, everyone, everyone volunteered practically, and the officers training camps were completely subject to volunteer enrollment. And I don’t just remember when the Brass started that. I was in the first officers training camp and felt very fortunate to be selected and I was very, had a, had a very high morale in the companies that I was with all the time. The attitude was terrific. Interviewer: After the war, what were, what were the twenties like, where they as wild as, they make it out to be? Mr. Hunting: They was a breakdown and there was, drinking became more common and they, they brought in dances that were not as dignified or as well recognized as the ones we were used to, but the participation was limited to few people and they were, were examples that were referred to, Fitzgerald group and, some of those and I would say that it was not generally through the society that I was involved with. Interviewer: Let’s see, I just have a couple more questions. How old were you when you got married? Mr. Hunting: Thirty three. Interviewer: Now was that common in those days for men, to, to wait until they were a little older to get married? Mr. Hunting: Well my brother was married when he was twenty one. Interviewer: Oh… Mr. Hunting: Best answer I can give you to that. And I know of the many that were married in their very early twenties. Interviewer: I see so that there was no, no set standard on that? Mr. Hunting: No, I think it shifted around a great deal. Interviewer: Ok good. We were just talking about schools, tell me a little about what the schools were like when you were going to school compared to the way they are now-- at least what we read. Mr. Hunting: Well the, in the grade school, particularly and also though high school, the teacher had complete control of the pupils. The discipline was excellent and it was imposed completely. You stood in line as you left properly, walked out properly, you came in to the school and into the class and you studied quietly. There were some occasional pranks played. I remember one time bringing in a lung-tester which my uncle made and which was filled with flour. When you blew into it the hand dial, hand on the dial which was supposed to go around didn’t but a lot of flour come up all over your face. And Miss Banister, the teacher, saw it on my desk and says �8 what was, and I said a lung tester. She said, bring it to my desk and you may have it after school, which I did. Well during the writing lesson I heard the damnest yell, Miss Banister stood up covered with flour. She kept me after school because I had no right to bring such a thing like that in the school. But the discipline was excellent and the teachers were uniformly older than the teachers are today. And teaching was their profession which was quite honored and quite respected and they, we did not have PTA groups then but the teacher would occasionally write a letter for someone to take home and have the mother answer or come to see her at a certain time. Interviewer: So then the big difference, the two big differences, one the respect for the teachers and two, the discipline within the school. Mr. Hunting: The students, I never saw a student show disrespect for a teacher or attempt to talk back to her or refuse to do what she told him to. And a teacher would occasionally send a pupil out into the hall to sit through a session if he’d been whispering or doing things that were wrong. Interviewer: Well is there anything else that… Mr. Hunting: OK, glad to talk to you. INDEX Ford, Theola · 2 A Avery, Mrs. · 6 G Gay, Will · 3 B Baker Family · 2 Banister, Miss · 8 Bissell, Mrs. · 4 Blanchard, Miss · 2 Blodgett Family · 4 Boltwood, Lucius · 5 Bundy Family · 4 H Hazletine Family · 4 Hollister Family · 4 Holt Family · 4 Huntley Russell Family · 5 K C Central High School · 3 Cole, Miss · 2 Keeler Family · 3 Kent Country Club · 5 L F Lowe Family · 4 First World War · 7 Ford, Joe · 2 �9 M Martine, Miss · 2 P Palmer Family · 2 R Ramona Theatre · 5 Russell Family · 3, 5 Russell, Fran · 3 S Scribner Family · 1 Seymour Family · 2 Shank Family · 2 Spanish American War · 2 Spencer Family · 2 T Turpin, Bill · 7 W Wealthy School · 5 Wealthy Street School · 3 White Family · 3, 4 Wilcox Family · 2, 5 Wilcox, Sanford · 5 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/91fb24701c0fec0d09c68dfd0f2721c3.mp3 d757e587e9b67ad33009042a01c9ce99 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_35Hunting Title A name given to the resource Hunting, David Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hunting, David Description An account of the resource David Hunting was born in 1892. He was a lieutenant during WWI. He married Mary Ives in 1925. Mr. Hunting worked in the office furniture manufacturing business and was founder of the Dyer-Ives Foundation (now Steelcase). He died on April 19, 1992. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/50d68415c30a8b24a6603493eb883684.pdf d43d5e882eb8d73cd837cfaf35e6b56f PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mr. George Shelby Interviewed on September 14, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tapes #3, 4 Biographical Information George Cass Shelby was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on 5 December 1878, the son of William Read Shelby and Mary Kennedy Cass. In 1903 George was married to Ann Miller about 1903. George died 31 August 1975 in Blodgett Hospital in East Grand Rapids at the age of 96. Ann Miller was born in November 1882 in Grand Rapids. She was the daughter of John Miller and Martha Nicholson. Ann died 26 April 1941 in Grand Rapids and both George and Ann are buried in Oak Hill Cemetery. The father, William Read Shelby was born 4 December 1842 in Lincoln County, Kentucky and died at his home at 65 Lafayette NE 14 November 1930. The mother of George was Mary Kennedy Cass, born in Brownsville, Pennsylvania on 22 March 1847. She married William Shelby on 16 June 1869 in St. Stephen’s Church, Sewickley, Pennsylvania. Mary died in Grand Rapids on 3 May 1936. _____________ Interviewer: How long have you lived in Grand Rapids, Mr. Shelby? Mr. Shelby: Well, with the exception of about twenty years in California, I was near Fresno where I had an orange grove with oranges, figs and so forth. I had money saved up and there was an enterprise in Santa Fe for officers preparing for the retirement days, don’t you know. I had the several thousand dollars on hand and I bought the land, and there was a colony [Annandale?], that was named after my wife, and so I moved to California in about, between nineteen….I can’t remember the exact date either, I lived out there about twenty-five years, and left there about nineteen forty, came back to Grand Rapids and sold the ranch, and put my wife in a sanitarium, because the nurses were so kind. Twenty years before she might have died, in nineteen forty. Interviewer: So before nineteen… you were in California for about twenty-five years, so that means you left Grand Rapids somewhere around nineteen fifteen. Mr. Shelby: Well, a little later, nineteen twenty-four I think I left then, so the period would be from about nineteen five to nineteen twenty-four. I was trying to develop this orange grove, Allendale colony. Interviewer: Were you born in Grand Rapids? Mr. Shelby: Yes, yes, I was born on Fountain Street, the house up on the hill, you know. �2 Interviewer: What’s the address of that house, do you know? Is that house still standing? Mr. Shelby: Yes, oh yes it is. Last occupied by Mrs. Booth. Elizabeth Booth. Because it had many owners in the meantime after we sold it and we moved along to Lafayette—sixty-five North Lafayette. Interviewer: Was your father William Shelby? Mr. Shelby: William R. Shelby, yeah. Interviewer: He was involved in railroads, wasn’t he? Mr. Shelby: He was the vice-president-treasurer of the Grand Rapids-Indiana Railroad Interviewer: What was the Grand Rapids-Indiana railroad ? Mr. Shelby: It was part of the Michigan Lines of the Pennsylvania Railroad, extending from Richmond, Indiana to Mackinac Island, about six hundred miles. Interviewer: Did your father, how did your father happen to come to Grand Rapids? Mr. Shelby: Well, he moved from Kentucky up to Pittsburgh and then married my mother in Sewickley, Pennsylvania. My grandfather George W. Cass, who was vice president of the lines west of Pittsburg, sent him out here to be the head of the G.R. and I Railway, that’s Grand Rapids-Indiana. And as a boy I was sent out to St. Paul’s which I just went out to this reunion, my seventy-fifth reunion, and I was leading the procession there. Interviewer: Are you the only one left from that class? Mr. Shelby: No, there are two others, but they are incapacitated. Interviewer: That’s quite a photo. Mr. Shelby: Well, here’s a little bit better one. This came the other day, yes. Interviewer: Oh, yes, class from ninety-six—eighteen ninety-six. Grand Rapids go away to school? Did many young men in Mr. Shelby: No, it was rather unusual. Let’s see there, well, there were three or four other Grand Rapids boys sent to that school: Fred Gorham and Edward Boise, Dr. Boise’s son, he attended it, too, St. Paul’s in Concord, New Hampshire. It’s a very famous Episcopal school, a hundred and fifteen years old this year. Interviewer: Did your family build what is known as the Booth house? �3 Mr. Shelby: Yes, my grandfather bought those three lots; one on Fountain, and one on the corner of Lafayette and Fountain and next to it, the three of them. We moved from that one on Fountain Street to Lafayette see. Interviewer: Was that your Grandfather Cass? Mr. Shelby: Yes, my Grandfather George W. Cass, yes. Interviewer: Was he any relation to Lewis Cass? Mr. Shelby: Yes, cousin, I think. Interviewer: What was it like growing up in Grand Rapids, when you grew up here? Mr. Shelby: Well, it was, it was really interesting in politics in those days. The cities used to have those torch-light processions that formed, you know, people turned their coats inside out and marched under a banner, you know, screaming out the candidates’ names, and they used to circulate around the neighborhood leading this torch-light procession yelling out ”Uhl, Uhl, Uhl, E.F. Uhl [Edward F. Uhl]; Shelby, Shelby, W.R. Shelby:” And we youngsters all marched in those processions; the banner and then the torch-light processions were quite characteristic of politics in those days. Interviewer: Where would the processions take place? Mr. Shelby: Well, in the residential districts. The candidates, like Mr. Ford, there was a fellow named [Melborne] Ford at that time, was the candidate for Congress I guess or something of that sort. There was quite a high feeling amongst the Democrats. We were Democrats in those days, whatever they stood for. Interviewer: There weren’t many of those around, were there? Mr.Shelby: Huh? Interviewer: There weren’t very many of those around here, were there, Democrats? Mr. Shelby: Yes, they was pretty active here. And in the winter time, of course, Fountain Street was a great street for sliding. Every night in the winter why, it was black with people just sliding down the hill. Bobs [bobsleds] thirty feet long, you know, and single sleds was riding right along right in front of us. Naturally I was amongst all the other youths that enjoyed that pleasure. The only trouble was we were, was for the hacks [cabs] that we used to get in our way a little. Interviewer: Wouldn’t [they] close the hill off for traffic then? Mr. Shelby: Yes, and on holidays especially. On Christmas and New Years, Bridge Street was the steepest street, that was closed off, policed. The city was young, you know, compared to what it is now, and very compact. I think the city, you might say, as far as residents were �4 concerned, ended about Union Avenue, Union Street, you know. Beyond that began the scattered homes and so on -- the country. Grand Rapids at that time was about sixty thousand people, and you were really outside of the town then after six or seven blocks going east from Lafayette, you began to get into country, don’t you know. Interviewer: What was out there? Mr. Shelby: Oh, just occasional farms, and residences, things of that sort, brickworks. The brickyard used to be quite a notable setting out there around Bridge Street and Fountain Street. That was one of the big brick yards of the city. Interviewer: Were there many brickyards in the city at that time? Mr. Shelby: Oh, just two or three. Interviewer: That brickyard was out on Fountain Street, beyond Union. Mr. Shelby: Well, Bridge Street. Interviewer: Now, that would be on the west side of town then? Mr. Shelby: No, it would be east side of town. Interviewer: The only Bridge Street that I know in town is the one on west side, was there another one? Mr. Shelby: Well, there’s East Bridge and West Bridge, of course, the river divides the thing. Interviewer: Then that would be where Michigan Street is today? Mr. Shelby: Yes, that’s right, that’s right. Interviewer: What were the neighborhoods like at that time in terms of social relationships? Mr. Shelby: Well, there was pretty much the center, the finest part of the town I’d call it that, the Hill District. Interviewer: Did the families have a lot of interactions together? Mr. Shelby: Oh, to a certain degree, they were members of the same club, like the President’s Club, you know or one thing, the Kent Country Club, and we were owners of that, stock in that, you know, that was the, you know where it is now, the Kent Country Club. It was a private club, membership club. We had interest in stock, interest in it at that time, don’t you know, used to entertain out there a good deal. Interviewer: That’s where most of the socializing went on then? �5 Mr. Shelby: Well, a large, largely although there was frequently amongst St. Mark’s church was a center of many occasions at our home. my father was a vestryman in St. Mark’s church, during those many years and quite a few occasions were held in our home, don’t you know gatherings two or three hundred people. Interviewer: Two or three hundred? Mr. Shelby: Oh, yes, Jandorf used to do all the catering in town, you know. Interviewer: What was the name of the company? Mr. Shelby: Jandorf, he was a caterer, you know, provided the food. He took and moved into a home with his staff and prepared all the food for the groups. Interviewer: Using your kitchen then? Mr. Shelby: Oh, yes. Interviewer: How long would he stay? Mr.Shelby: Huh? Interviewer: How long would he stay? Mr. Shelby: How long what? Interviewer:How long would Jandorf stay? He moved into the home? Mr. Shelby: Well, his location on Monroe Street, but he would just move in for those occasions, and provide all the food for the house he took over, don’t you know. It would be too much for a hired cook and others. Interviewer: How many people would he have on hand for an occasion like that? Mr. Shelby: Well, he had maybe ten or twelve people, cooks and waitresses for the meals, and then they help with everything else. Interviewer: Was there any dancing at those affairs? Mr. Shelby: Not particularly, I don’t know, no there wasn’t any dancing. Interviewer: Not at the church affairs? Mr. Shelby: No, it wasn’t frowned upon, but there wasn’t any occasion for it, mostly chattering and visiting. Interviewer: What affect did the automobile have on society, when the automobile came out? �6 Mr. Shelby: Very pronounced, very pronounced, I think it scattered people for one thing. They began to have homes and places other than, you know, cottages to go to, homes at the lake, resorts. It had a very pronounced affect. Not everybody owned cars, you know. Interviewer: Do you remember when you saw your first car? Mr. Shelby: Well, it started during that period and, say nineteen fifteen, twenty, around that, and then it kept growing in numbers when people bought cars, you know. It had a very pronounced effect in every way. People circulated a lot more than they did by streetcar. That’s all they had was streetcars then, in those days. They ended it pretty much ended at the, well going north, ended at Sweet Street and then took a dummy from that point and, you go out on the streetcar to Sweet Street and then the dummy carried you to North Park where the street railway had a building, you know, resort for dancing and parties, and everything else. It was the same way at Reed’s Lake. You took— on Eastern Avenue, you went to this corral and got aboard the dummy, and you went two miles out to Reed’s Lake. That time they had a lot of the pavilions you know and entertainment, picnics, very simple compared with the way it is now. Beer gardens also, which they frowned upon. Interviewer: Why? Mr. Shelby: Well, personally I never liked beer, I liked wine. But anyways we suppose to be, it was supposed to be looked as a scandal, to be seen over in that beer garden. Interviewer: The one at Ramona Park? Mr.Shelby: Huh? Interviewer: The one at Ramona Park? Mr. Shelby: Yes, that was quite a big one in those days. The more sportier elements in the town patronized that. But that was a swamp, the entertainment was largely professional at Reed’s Lake, don’t you know the troupes were brought in and entertainers. So, if you had the time and the leisure, the desire, well you went to Reed’s Lake. It played a very important part in the life of the town, and for leisure moments, you know. Interviewer: The people that lived up on Lafayette and Fountain and that area around where your family lived were they mostly professional men? Mr. Shelby: Well, they were largely heads of businesses. There was Mr. Perkins, Gaius Perkins, the head of the School Furniture Company, they called it at that time. He was living on the corner of Fountain and Lafayette and then they were all prominent people, prominent in the city, lawyers, and doctors and railroad officials. It was fairly compact you might say. So we might say that it set it apart from the balance of the city. That was the fine homes were built within that area. Interviewer: Do you remember the construction of your home on Fountain Street? �7 Mr. Shelby: Well, just dimly, but I remember playing around it, yes. Interviewer: built better? How about the home, perhaps you could remember the home on Lafayette you Mr. Shelby: The what? Interviewer: The home on Lafayette. Mr. Shelby: Sixty-five Lafayette? Interviewer: Could you tell me a little about, how were homes constructed in those days? Mr. Shelby: Well, bricklayers were the great builders of homes in those days. Large, all brick homes, they’re very spacious and space, space was some families were fairly large with five or six children, don’t you know, and they wanted big homes, which they had. Lafayette Avenue is three stories and an attic, which children used to play on that, fourteen feet high, the attic you know, until it was finished off and then we’d made it into entertainment for dancing, you know, and you give parties. Of course at that time there were about two professional dancing schools, which we children were sent to, you know, Gage and Benedict, as I remember the names. I learned to dance at those places, along with the other bluebloods. Interviewer: What kind of dancing was there? Mr. Shelby: Waltz and waltzes and round dancing, do-si-do and you know, those figures I would think in color. When you, Mr. Gage and Mrs. Benedict were the two teachers, one was a little runt and the other was a tall woman and they wore costumes. And that, I think Saturday as a rule was the weekend was the occasion for going to the dancing school, you know. Interviewer: Saturday afternoon? Mr. Shelby: Yes, Saturday afternoon. Interviewer: Did most of the children of the prominent people living in the area go to the school? Mr. Shelby: That’s right. That’s right. Interviewer: Was the business, you’ve been involved in the business community all your life, is the business of that time, the pace of business and the…. Mr. Shelby: Well, furniture, furniture and railroads I think were the key main activities, so we had a half dozen of these very large factories making furniture, you know. Nelson-Matter was very famous throughout the country for fine furniture, and Century and Phoenix and half a dozen of them. School Furniture, the one I mentioned, you know Mr. Perkins is head of that. So that was one of the things that kept Grand Rapids growing at that time, the name Furniture City. We �8 had the skilled designers here, through those years, you know, and then we had the annual exhibitions, those people come later on from all over the United States and that was once a year. We were very much on the map. Interviewer: Have you seen any differences in the way businesses operated in that period compared to today? Mr. Shelby: Well, there’s more or less corporations now, the giant corporations. As a rule though they pretty much, there was the single city in making the furniture, and nothing but furniture. So we didn’t have very many metal plants here, I remember that, the metal business, there wasn’t much of that. Mostly furniture, wooden furniture, and we slaughtered all the timber from here to Mackinac over the years, you know. We wanted a freight with larger furniture. Heavy wood, you know. Grand Rapids was the furniture capitol of the United States at that time and later on, of course, Chicago took the wind out of our sails and built the buildings over there and then people instead of coming here, they went to Chicago. Interviewer: Do you think that one of the reasons for the furniture industry here was the accessibility of lumber? Mr. Shelby: The scarcity of lumber, well it gradually gave out. Interviewer: I mean, one of the reasons why the furniture industry developed here; was it because of the availability of lumber? Mr. Shelby: That would be the main reason, and then we had a large population of Dutch here that worked in the factories, you know mainly Dutch at those times; and they were skilled men and they were, that was their activity. We had almost, we had national fame, as well as you might say abroad, as the Furniture Capitol; the design and execution, production. Interviewer: Who were some of the lumber men? Mr. Shelby: Well, Gay was one, Widdicombe, John Widdicombe and Nelson-Matter they called them. They were very prominent, and later on other men came into Grand Rapids that weren’t necessarily Grand Rapids people, don’t you know. But it was the main industry for the town for many, many years. Interviewer: Did they ever bring logs down to the Grand River? Mr. Shelby: Oh, yes, there were log jams there at Leonard Street, and Bridge Street, that’s where a number of them. Baxter’s [history] will show that. Interviewer: Do you remember seeing any of them? Mr. Shelby: Yes, I do; they were very visible. Interviewer: What was it like? �9 Mr. Shelby: The river was just jammed with logs, and they spilled over the dams, you know. And, it was almost an annual affair, in the Grand River. Interviewer: Where would they take the logs out? Mr. Shelby: Well, up there where the Rowe Hotel is, there’d be, you know where that is. There was a big dam there, you know. You could see it from the top of our house, the whole river in front and everywhere, you know. West side was often under water, good share of the west side of the city. Interviewer: It was quite frequent then? Mr. Shelby: Oh yes, I mean once a year, in the springtime. Interviewer: What could you see from the top of your house? How much of the city could you see? Mr. Shelby: Well, you couldn’t see too much to the east, but you could pretty well to the (wood pile?), I used to try and sneak and see Lake Michigan, but it wasn’t high enough, you know, you could look ten or fifteen miles. Oh yes. Interviewer: Do you think that a project like this is important; do you think it is valuable to go around and interview people that can remember those past days? Mr. Shelby: Well, I think that is a very interesting page in the history of the growth of the city, what causes it, what prevents it and where it reaches its summit, and then it sort of stagnates or goes downhill, you might say. Other types of this business come in like the metal, we didn’t have many metal industries as I remember, they decided to change over from wood to metal was gradual and persistent, and so we do have metal industries here of sizable proportion which we didn’t have in those days. Interviewer: Did many of the lumber barons and so on live in the Hill District? Mr. Shelby: Many of them? Most of them yes, yes, there was well along Fulton street and a where Mr. Blodgett lived on Cherry Street, yes, Cherry Street, Cherry and Madison, you know, and Widdicombe’s lived all along up on Fountain Street, just two blocks above us, you know. Interviewer: How did the lumber people, the lumber men, how did they manage to build their businesses? Mr. Shelby: Well, I’d say the distribution of the furniture you mean? Interviewer: No, how did they manage to get started and get concessions, for example, on land, for cutting timber? Mr. Shelby: I don’t remember other than, I couldn’t exactly describe how those started, except that the lumber was here, and building skill was here, the designers were here, and the money �10 was here, and so it became, it was a growth over the years, you know. It was the predominating industry of the city Interviewer: Why did the Grand Rapids-Indiana Railroad come into being? Why would they have tracks extending from Richmond, Indiana, to the top of Michigan? Mr. Shelby: Well, that was because there was business to be carried, The Pennsylvania Railroad felt it thought that there were opportunities to develop and get bigger, incentive in itself, but they were here because it was a natural location for them, nature furnished that, and so they centered here, don’t you see, and until later on, of course, and then part of their tonnage was agriculture, as a farm produced different crops, lumber was the principle commodity for many years, heavy commodity, don’t you know. I think the railroad has pretty well dominated the city for many years, with furniture, what they carried. Interviewer: Then your father must have been quite an important man? Mr. Shelby: He was.-About the head of everything you could think of. He took a great interest in the development of the city, he was a member of the board of Public Works, and he used to ride around in a hack, asking questions you know, seeing how things were going, that was a month or twice a month, that would occur don’t you know in the summer’s duration. Undoubtedly, his activities were important to the city in that time. He was a director of the Old National Bank, the old hostel, well, I guess we were the biggest customer there at the bank, the National Bank, became the [Old] Kent later on. I have a very good copy of the paper of my father’s and mother’s, and so on and so forth, grandfather, up to the house. Haven’t got it here, but I don’t know whether that would be interesting or not, Grant Schultz takes care of it. Interviewer: I’d like to see it sometime. Mr. Shelby: Yes, well, it’s right there. Interviewer: Did you go away to college? Did you go away to school, to college? Mr. Shelby: Yes, I went to St. Paul’s School, it’s Prep School in Yale. Interviewer: Did some of the other families send their young men off to school? Mr. Shelby: Yes, they did. Interviewer: Where did they go to college? Mr. Shelby: Well, some to Ann Arbor. I had one brother that went to Ann Arbor, one brother’s at Lehigh, because he was an engineer, and I went to Yale, I was of no particular bent, myself, just classics and languages and general education, you know. Interviewer: Did you return to Grand Rapids after college? Mr. Shelby: I came back here, yes, �11 Interviewer: What business did you go into then? Mr. Shelby: In the railroad. I worked in the treasury department. I was made assistant treasurer, assistant to the treasurer or whatever you want to call it. I found the work in subsequent years a little tedious and I got interested in California. I had the money, and I needed the break. [Side 2] Interviewer: What was this investment house in town? That you worked for, was that located, did it have an office here in Grand Rapids? Mr. Shelby: The what? Interviewer: That investment house? Mr. Shelby: Oh, no, they was national in Boston, New York, Chicago, those are the most prominent things… Interviewer: Well, where were you located with that company? Mr. Shelby: Here. Interviewer: In Grand Rapids? Mr. Shelby: Right. Interviewer: What happened to the company? Mr. Shelby: Well, I told you, Ivar Kreuger ruined the company by match-scandals… Interviewer: Could you tell me a little about that? What happened, and how it happened? Mr. Shelby: Well, it’s something, he committed suicide. He dealt on the New York-Chicago when this happened, there was panic in Chicago. I happened to go there that very night and there was panic throughout the exchanges when that occurred. Interviewer: What year was that? Mr. Shelby: It was in, I can’t be accurate about that, now. I’d have to look it up. Interviewer: Was panic the… Mr. Shelby: It was the stock exchange. It was, you know Ivar Kreuger. We’ve got plenty of sources that have written into that. Interviewer: What did, did that have an effect on Grand Rapids? �12 Mr. Shelby: Well, not exactly, no, I wouldn’t say that, although it did have an affect all over the United States, in the financial world. Quite a great affect. He was known as the Swedish match king. Interviewer: I’ve heard of him. Mr. Shelby: No, you don’t hear of them now, you know. I think ,as a matter of fact, I think one of his activities was making these, what do you call them, these university out east, you know, varsity-like these big football places and baseball places, you know. Interviewer: What do you mean stadiums? Mr. Shelby: Stadiums, yes. He was a brilliant, brilliant man in his day. That disaster ended him. It shattered a lot of people at that time. I was selling insurance stocks; someone came to me and thought I was a good material to sell insurance stocks, which I did. And then later when the Henry Higginson for Mr. Whitmer, was a prominent man in those days. You know I was associated with him and represented Henry Higginson. I made sales and often I would score in New York and so forth. Interviewer: What are some of the more memorable experiences of your youth in Grand Rapids? What are some of the things you remember most clearly? Mr. Shelby: Well, going to the circus was one of the things as a child, and the kind of got the city grew must have had one occasion when the city determined to pave Canal Street. Which was then nothing but dirt, you know. So Canal Street was paved, as a single operation, brand new to the city, don’t you know, and the whole town turned out at that time and went down and danced on Monroe Street, along Canal Street, they called it. Interviewer: What was it paved with? Mr. Shelby: Huh? Interviewer: What was it paved with? Mr. Shelby: Pavement, you know, concrete. That was the first time that it ever had happened to the city? We had wooden sidewalks, you know on Monroe Street, wooden sidewalks. Concrete was just coming in, so they were gradually replaced. You know, right ahead on Monroe Street there was wooden sidewalks and one place I remember in particular the dairy there the milk was spilled over the sidewalks and the sun would make it stink, you know. Pretty loud smelling, so that, as the years went on that was the place for concrete. Interviewer: Why was the circus memorable? Mr. Shelby: Well, that was the chief public entertainment. Barnum & Bailey, and the half of a dozen of those, some local, but Barnum & Bailey was the big organization and that was that. We �13 also made a big deal over the Fourth of July that, we saved up our money and bought firecrackers and bombs, and pretty well turned the town upside down on the Fourth of July. Interviewer: How would the circus come to town in those days? Mr. Shelby: Well, they had their own wagons, the railroads transported them; they had them these big lots. There were several lots devoted to holding the circus, and of course in the morning what they would do is have a parade through the downtown section. Interviewer: Was that quite a big event? Mr. Shelby: Was for us; that was enormous. Interviewer: Circus Wagons… Mr. Shelby: Sounds rather primitive now to you, I guess, but it was for me entertainment then, for youngsters, you know, otherwise we made our own fun. Walking on stilts - I used to have stilts, with blocks that high, you know. The gang would go over on Saturday afternoon [and maybe along the D and M tracks,] go out and kill frogs; that was a big pursuit is frog legs. You see, it was all very simple. Interviewer: That sounds different to me, different age… Mr. Shelby: Sure. Interviewer: Do you think there was any one particular event that kind of ended that age? Mr. Shelby: No, it was gradual. I think one, I think later on the success of the movies they had a pronounced effect on people’s habits and thoughts and interests. Interviewer: How so? Mr. Shelby: Well, it was a new idea, don’t you know, in entertainment. Then theatres begun to be built, and people formed the habit of going to see these clever actors. The theatre was, the Powers’ Theatre of course was the fore runner of that and most prominent actors would come to Grand Rapids during the season and this is, we were all interested in that— good plays. That would be a cultural thing, I presume, you could call it that, entertainment. And then later on the movies, of course, was the enormous influence on people’s habits, because they were perfected and more enjoyable. Interviewer: Was opening night at the Powers’ Theatre, when a new act would come to town a big event? The opening night? Mr. Shelby: Well, I imagine yes, the actors did have an unusual prominence in those days in the entertainment field. It just wasn’t very much other than as a competitor, don’t you know? There was people interested in plays and their presentation and their skill and ability and entertainment �14 ability of the actors was very succeeding and greatness to be up there and play: All of us, if there was any interest at all. Interviewer: Did any actors come and visit you at your house? Mr. Shelby: No, no, we never had any. No, I wasn’t that intimate with them, but we were exceedingly interested in their playing and their ability. Interviewer: That’s a little different from today; almost everything in that way in entertainment is the movies? Mr. Shelby: Yes, it is vastly different. It was more of course, it was the only people in the upper brackets would sustain the theatre in those days, compared with today. It used to cost money to go to the theatre, don’t you know? And Powers’ Opera House was the very center, and they had a second-grade Redmond’s Grand Opera House on the corner of Monroe, and they were cheaper things, you know, these opera companies, they called themselves, just singing and acting, and that was during the summer, that was quite a feature of the city. And we had a very low-down place as you were, you weren’t supposed to look at… Interviewer: Where was that? Mr. Shelby: Smith’s, that was a block off of Monroe…you weren’t even supposed to glance that way. That was a, you know… Interviewer: Did you ever go there? Mr. Shelby: No. Interviewer: You never did? Mr. Shelby: No, I didn’t have the occasion to be ruined; never more than looked at it, I guess. Moving shipees they called them then. Of course the morals of the town then were pretty open, they were, oh, whole districts of houses you know, there was a, oh, lower part of the town now along the river, you know. Interviewer: Is that right? Mr. Shelby: Oh, yes, houses, public houses of prostitution. Interviewer: Were they tolerated by the police? Mr. Shelby: Oh, yes, there were a number of them, you know, yup, that’s where they got rid of their excess energy. Interviewer: That’s interesting. �15 Mr. Shelby: It was unmentionable part of the town, don’t you know? The characteristic of all the countries at that time. Interviewer: You know, you never read that in history books? Mr. Shelby: No, you…. Interviewer: Baxter never mentioned it. Mr. Shelby: No, no I guess that’s one of the things they ignore. As refinement came about that was put to one side. Interviewer: How do you mean refinement? Mr. Shelby: Well. I mean refinement in place, in the public; rough and ready stuff was all out; people became more cultured, more choosy. They weren’t necessarily aristocrats, but they were supposed to be a cut above the common herd. Interviewer: What caused that, what would cause the change in…? Mr. Shelby: Attitude of the public? Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Shelby: Oh, I don’t know, just a gradual interest in better things of life, more enduring things, less animalism, more intellectual pleasures, so on and so forth. Things that wouldn’t interest you anymore because they were too rough and ready, and too crude. It was the growth of refinement, which was common in America. It was changing; things that were once very popular gradually lose their force. Other things were adopted, people generally had broader life. They began to circulate more and form more interest in sports, you might say, tennis, and golf later. I remember the whole growth of golf, when it first came here I remember Yale, a very famous Scotsman came over and we watched his performance and then on why the growth of golf kept growing and growing. I never took it up, I don’t care for it myself, I liked tennis. But it did, it became a sport that was adopted from Scotland, wasn’t it? But baseball of course was and it still is the chief passion of American sport’s world. Baseball, football. Interviewer: Was there any tennis clubs here in town where you could play? Mr. Shelby: Yes, quite a number of them. Interviewer: Were there? Mr. Shelby: There was a Cardinal Mark with a basketball. Interviewer: Where was some of those Clubs located? �16 Mr. Shelby: Well, let’s see there, up there around the Hollister family had several courts up there they allowed you to used by those who played tennis and elsewhere, like the Kent Country Club offered them. Other Clubs…. Interviewer: Where did the Hollisters live? Mr. Shelby: Where did the Hollisters live? Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Shelby: Up on, between Fountain and Fulton, they were very prominent people here. Head of the bank, head of the Old National Bank, and leaders in Grand Rapids, the Hollister family. Interviewer: Well, I think that’s enough. If I think of anything else I’ll come down and talk to you again alright? Mr. Shelby: Alright [PAUSES THEN CONTINUES] Mr. Shelby: But I was born in the Booth house on Fountain Street, that’s where I was born, well, that was my grandpa that bought these three lots and then my father built the one on Lafayette and Mr. Wallen, my uncle built the one on Fountain and Lafayette. The Booth house it was later occupied by a number of different people over the years, five or six, would you believe. In fact it was the Saints Rest Club that one time when bachelors, five or six prominent men lived there in the house on Fountain Street, many years after we sold it. It had a ballroom, you know, a beautiful ballroom upstairs, it’s just as substantial as the day it was built. Interviewer: That’s the house on Lafayette? Mr. Shelby: All of them Interviewer: All three. Mr. Shelby: The same characteristics. Interviewer: Why did you sell the homes? Mr. Shelby: Why did I sell them? I had to settle the estate. Unfortunately, there was no price for real estate at that time. I only got five thousand dollars and I was asking seventy thousand for it. Interviewer: When was it that you had settled the estate? Mr. Shelby: Oh, gosh, I don’t know, I’d have to look it up. Interviewer: One of those houses has three apartments out of your one bedroom? You got it partitioned into three different rooms? �17 Mr. Shelby: No, it was one room, my bedroom. Interviewer: And what’s it like today? Mr. Shelby: What? Interviewer: What’s it like today? They partitioned your bedroom? Mr. Shelby: Yes Interviewer: They made three rooms out of your one room. Mr. Shelby: That’s right, well three pretty big rooms though. Well, for instance, from the end of the dining room to the end of the library was about eighty feet, down on the first floor cause the dining room was about thirty-five feet long, the library, the living room was equal with that, then the hall there in front was very big, that; then the maid’s room off of that, the dining room. A big house; big. Mr. Shelby: Where did you want to put this stuff? Interviewer: Well, what we’re thinking of… [END OF TAPE] INDEX B G Barnum & Bailey · 12 Benedict, Mrs. · 7 Blodgett, Mr. · 9 Boise, Dr. · 2 Boise, Edward · 2 Booth · 2 Booth, Mrs. · 2 Gage and Benedict · 7 Gage, Mr. · 7 Gay, Mr. · 8 Gorham, Fred · 2 Grand Rapids-Indiana Railroad · 2, 10 H C Hollister family · 16 Cass, George W. · 2, 3 Cass, Lewis · 3 Century Furniture Company · 7 J Jandorf · 5 F Ford, Melborne · 3 K Kent Country Club · 4, 16 �18 Kreuger, Ivar · 11 N Redmond’s Grand Opera House · 14 Rowe Hotel · 9 S Nelson-Matter · 7, 8 Old Kent Bank · 10 Old National Bank · 10, 16 Saints Rest Club · 16 School Furniture Company · 6, 7 Schultz, Grant · 10 Shelby, W.R. · 3 Shelby, William R. · 2 St. Mark’s church · 5 P U Pennsylvania Railroad · 2, 10 Perkins, Gaius · 6 Perkins, Mr. · 7 Phoenix Furniture Company · 7 Powers’ Opera House · 14 Powers’ Theatre · 13 President’s Club · 4 Uhl, Edward F. · 3 O R Ramona Park · 6 W Wallen, Mr. · 16 Whitmer, Mr. · 12 Widdicombe family · 9 Widdicombe, John · 8 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ff6713a3f6b8a6e44bb3fe13f1fd634c.mp3 27dd93a856f48df8c36d29ea00efebca Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_3-4Shelby Title A name given to the resource Shelby, George (1 of 2) Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Shelby, George Description An account of the resource George Cass Shelby was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on December 5, 1878. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/11ea1869008f3d5bdbe74b6eca98ccb6.pdf 39b52b83ffbbfe3c6e9ac2cdbdccd697 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Miss Doris Robinson Interviewed on November 5, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape # 50 (1:03:49) Biographical Information Doris H. Robinson was born 2 January 1893 in Grand Rapids. She was the daughter of Albert Robinson and Jennie M. Baker. Doris lived in Grand Rapids her entire life. Albert Robinson was born in Salem, Massachusetts 12 March 1848, the son of Jeremiah A. Robinson and Harriet A. Brown. Jennie M. Baker was born about July 1858 in Wilbraham, Hampden County, Massachusetts. Albert and Jennie were married 24 December 1876 in Paw Paw, Michigan. Albert was a dentist and he died in Grand Rapids on 14 May 1898 when Doris was five years old. Jeremiah Robinson was also a dentist and he died in Grand Rapids two years earlier on 3 March 1896. __________ Interviewer: This interview with Doris Robinson was conducted November five, nineteen seventy-one. O.K. Fine. Miss Robinson: Alright, we‟ll begin with Sheldon Avenue where I lived for sixty years. I came there when I was about a year old, and that was almost seventy nine years ago almost, yes, seventy nine years next January, My father had built us a house in the second block down from Monroe, from Fulton Street. Kitty-corner from where the YWCA is now, was next to the corner. He had decided that it would be, he would leave his dental office down on Monroe Avenue and have a dental office in a house in which, which he would build. And, the house was completed in eighteen ninety-four and it was there until nineteen fifty-three when I moved, oh it was there until nineteen fifty-four when it was taken down by Mr. Ellis for a parking lot and a quick wash. Sheldon Avenue was very different in those days from what it is now. It wasn‟t a very busy street and it was quite an aristocratic street and it was a street on which people enjoyed living because they get down, they could get downtown, quickly and yet it was a very beautiful street. People today would never realize that it was as beautiful street as it is, as it was then. It was a street lined with maples and elm and the beautiful homes all along the sides, on both sides. The street was a dirt street lined with cobblestones and there were many hitching posts and horse blocks in front of each of the houses where cement parking walks went down from the sidewalk to the parking lots and that‟s the block. The horse blocks were made so that you could get out of your carriage easily; there were no automobiles in those days. People would be horrified to see �2 these hundreds of automobiles parked along the sides of the street and down the middle of the street. There were beautiful carriages going down the streets drawn by horses. I can‟t, we had a surrey, fringe topped surrey, with a horse and a carriage and a sleigh in the winter, the surreys were more family carriages and not, not so elegant. But down the street came many an elegant carriage with a coachman at the back, driving it or at the top, with the lady down below. In those days ladies wore long train dresses. And my, I can remember my mother‟s dress that she had when I was born, I‟m not, I couldn‟t remember it at that time but she, we kept it for a dressup dress. It had, it wasn‟t, it‟s, with, struts the ground. It was, and it had a bustle at the back. And there were large sleeves and then, there were trimming around it. It was made by a very elegant dressmaker; you didn‟t buy your dresses in those days in stores. They were, they, sometimes the dressmaker came to your house and stayed for two or three days or even a week and had her dinner there, her yes, a dinner at noon with you, and you paid her so much by the hour. But there were some very elegant dressmakers too in the house and my mother wasn‟t particularly fond of clothes but my father wanted her to have very lovely dress, so he, I can‟t, I don‟t remember the woman‟s name, of course, I wouldn‟t remember at that time. But my mother told me about the dress, who made it and I think she married a Winegar [Frank B. Winegar married Aurilla Pearl in 1893; lived at 203 Sheldon] who was quite a prominent man woman here, family here. He owned Winegar‟s store on South Division, right opposite, at the end of Cherry Street. It was a furniture store. And the Winegars lived on Sheldon. She had a carriage, I think after that with a coachman. But this dress that I enjoyed so much through my years - I was born in the year after she, she had it made - and she had to have it made to hide her condition. It was that she had extra piece of cloth, it was made of red, moiré, I think. It‟s in the museum today and it came, the piece of cloth from the shoulder down to the waist went over her. Now she was a very small woman and it came to here, the waist came to a point and was buttoned all the way up to the top. And that was all hidden, and so then she could let it out with strings. Well, when I used to wear it, I was so much larger and grew so much fatter than my mother ever was, that was it was very fashionable to have a small waist and by the time I was a young woman that wasn‟t, of course I wasn‟t so large as I am now but, I never was as small as my mother. So I had to wear it when I was dressed up with the, the piece of material that hid the front of the dress and I‟d let all the strings. I gave that dress to a museum and a lady is wearing it, a figure, in one of the shops in the Gaslight Station. I got quite a kick out of this. Well. Anyway, I think maybe you‟d like to know about different people that lived in the first block. On the corner of Fulton and Sheldon was the Watson home, Major [Amasa B.] Watson, I think he might have been major in the, I don‟t know. Interviewer: I think it was the Civil War. Miss Robinson: Was it the Civil War? Mrs. Watson was quite old then. It was a beautiful home and it looked like a castle with its turrets, sort of, a number of turrets, it faced Fulton Street and could look across at Fulton Street Park. The side, on the side was a porch and when I would go by the house, I would often see Mrs. Watson and her nephew Billy Mead, sitting on the porch, looking down Monroe Avenue because there was a beautiful view looking down the street. And people liked living downtown. They, they enjoyed that. On the front, between the house and where the Metz building is, was a large fence, a wrought iron, black wrought iron, and behind �3 that you could look through and see Mrs. Watson in her garden. There was a beautiful pond on which she raised lilies, beautiful lilies. It was a lovely, garden and she lived there I think even up to the time of the Metz building. When I was a little girl, every year at Decoration Day, the National Guard sent up, or the Watson Post, sent up a military group of people, I don‟t know, it wouldn‟t be a regiment, with a band and the parade it, this, they would play patriotic music before the parade began. And often the parade started on Sheldon. Sometimes up around on Jefferson. And I could, I‟d run down the street and see all the parades, as a matter of fact. Most of them started up there. Later on the Christmas Parade started up there on Sheldon and would go down. But that was after Sheldon was getting to be more of a business street. Mrs. Watson could look out on Fulton Street Park and she could look across the road at the old Godfrey, May Godfrey home, which was on the corner of Park and Fulton; a lovely old-fashioned home which should never have been destroyed. That‟s where, they have parking lot now. It… Interviewer: What was Park Street? Which street is that? Miss Robinson: Park Street is the street that goes… well there were two Park Streets, Park Street going down, past Park Congregational Church. Interviewer: Oh. Miss Robinson: And, next to the Congregational church was a second Godfrey home. I think it was Mrs. Godfrey, Miss May Godfrey‟s brother that had that. And there was a Georgia Godfrey and I don‟t know whether that, she was quite a lot older than I and whether there were some other Godfreys or not. They moved to California. They were quite wealthy people. May Godfrey was a very wealthy woman. And so was the Godfrey family. And there was another Godfrey family that lived up on Fountain Street, right southwest of Lafayette, about two, two or three houses down. I think it was the house that the Booth people later on, Esther Booth lived in later on. Yes I‟m quite sure that was the Godfrey built by the Godfrey family, related to these Godfreys. They owned, I think a block down on Monroe Avenue. Interviewer: Well the Booth family house was come to be known as, the Booth house was built by the Shelbys. Miss Robinson: Oh, it was? Interviewer: Yes. Miss Robinson: Well, then it was the house next to it because I remember definitely there was a Godfrey house. But could it, it had been later, before that? I use to go to Fountain Street School. I went up the hill every day past all those houses. Interviewer: It was, it could have been perhaps the house…. Miss Robinson: I think it was the Booth house back then but it had gone long perhaps quite a time before that. And the Shelbys lived on at, the Shelbys that in my day lived on the other side of Agnes Caulfield or Mrs. McKnight‟s home. �4 Interviewer: Yes. Miss Robinson: They lived in a brick house on? Interviewer: They built this? Miss Robinson: On Lafayette. Interviewer: Yes, they built the three homes, they built two facing Lafayette Miss Robinson: They did? Oh. Interviewer: And they built the Booth house. Those three are all Shelby houses. Miss Robinson: Oh, I see, Yes. Well, Mrs, another little interesting thing about Mrs. Watson was that she, after her husband died, she went into deep mourning. And that was quite customary of widows in those days. And she wore a veil, a black veil, over her face for quite a while. This custom was, well, then she was, well, she stayed in mourning for a long time and they, she had a cemetery up here, Oak Hill Cemetery; a beautiful mausoleum where her husband was buried. And she would go up there occasionally and have, and look at, he‟s, she‟d have the drawer where he was placed, opened, and she could look in at him. And that, my father thought was very, what was the word? Interviewer: Morbid? Miss Robinson: Morbid. My father felt that mourning was terrible but they, you would see widows going down the street in their lovely carriages drawn by horses with docked tails and mourning ribbons tied on their ears or around their necks. They stayed in Side one second section: Miss Robinson: …. mourning for a year. My mother, my father begged my mother never to do so, so she didn‟t. He would, he wouldn‟t even drive through a cemetery. Well, Mrs. Watson was the aunt of the mother of well, she was the aunt of Mrs. Tom Carroll [Julia Agnes Mead]. I don‟t know whether Mr. Tom Carroll was an adopted, she was a Mead. And Katherine Carroll inherited the Watson home. And that was called the Wa, when they built, a building, they built the building on there which was called the Watson building. And there were offices in it and little stores along the side later on. And now it‟s, of course, Jacobson‟s. Then, next door there were just two houses in that block. Next door to Mrs. Watson, on the other side of the alley that ran from Sheldon to LaGrave was Mrs. Putnam‟s [Caroline nee Williams; Mrs. Lemuel D. Putnam] home, that was built up quite high, it was a hill, a slight hill there and it had beautiful lawn all the way around it. Mrs. Watson is, when I was a little, young girl, was very old, at least she seemed so to me, and she was very wealthy. And, I don‟t know what her husband did. She had once been the president of the Ladies Literary Club and at one time I think she was a teacher at a time when St. Mark‟s had a school for young women. One of… �5 Interviewer: Was this Mrs. Watson or Mrs. Putnam? Miss Robinson: Mrs. Putnam, excuse me. Interviewer: OK. Miss Robinson: Mrs. Putnam. She was once the president of the Ladies Literary and had been a teacher in the early days. I think in the Saint Mark‟s School for Young Ladies. One of the first schools here in Grand Rapids. And, so she was quite old, she had a daughter called Carolyn and then she, no maybe her name was Carolyn, her daughter was Isabelle [Isabel W. Putnam died 14 July 1901], because the Isabelle home was given in her, the member memory of her daughter. And, it was a home for old ladies. At first, in the first place it was out on, well, they called it Central Avenue, and they later changed it to, calling it Sheldon. But when, Sheldon ended at First Avenue, First Avenue, is it Buckley now? Interviewer: I‟m, I don‟t know. Miss Robinson: I think it is, they‟ve changed all those avenues from First, Second, Third and Fourth and Fifth. Interviewer: OK. Miss Robinson: And gave them the, because on the West side there are also First, First Streets and so forth and so they, it was often confusing. Well, Mrs.Ca, Mrs. Putnam, was known as the American Princess. Because she took, she went to Algiers every winter and that was quite a thing to do in that day. Not too many people went to Europe, as they do today. It was very wonderful to be able to have enough money to take a European trip. Well, she would take not only herself, but she took a nurse and a doctor, and a doctor and his wife and a companion sometimes and they were known as the American Princess, who took this great number of people. Well, I, then we come to my block, the block I live in. I don‟t remember this but my father bought, I think my father bought the lot, it was the second lot from Weston and in those days that was called Island Street, because that street went down to the Island, that had been in the, years ago destroyed but it went down near the jail. They, I, I guess the market place was on the, you know the market place. Interviewer: Yes. Miss Robinson: I think that was, where the island was. Of course that was filled up. Well that was called Island Street, and I think it should be Island today. It was named after somebody, I don‟t know who Mr. Weston was, but he sometime or other, the commissioners decided to change it from Island Street to Weston. Well, I think that‟s too bad because that‟s really a historical name. And, my father bought the second lot from the corner and on one of the leases it says it was from Mrs. Putnam, so she must have owned that land in there. They built in eighteen ninety-three and we moved in there in eighteen ninety-four. His first office had been on Monroe Avenue where the, above Herkner‟s. �6 Interviewer: Your, your, I don‟t think we‟ve established your father just for the sake of this tape. Your father was a dentist? Miss Robinson: Yes, well, yes, I was going to. He had, he came with my mother from, they were Massachusetts people originally. Their ancestors were all New England people. And they had come out to Paw Paw; my father went there to practice dentistry. My Grandfather Robinson, he wasn‟t, he came and died here in Grand Rapids at our home but I wasn‟t going to bring him in because he, his home was Jackson. His home was Ca, he was born in Concord and my father had been born in Salem and they‟d come out to, early days to Jackson. They went first to Ohio and then up to Jackson and he in those days, dentists did not go to college. There were no college, no dental college, that‟s what I was going to say. There were no dental colleges. The university, I don‟t know the year that university established a dental college, but my grandfather was one of the earliest dentists in the United States, but he began at a time when it was called a trade. And he was known; he was offered the deanship of the University of Michigan, the first deanship of the dental school at the University of Michigan. But he wasn‟t able to accept it because it didn‟t pay enough for him to support his family on. And so, Dean Taft became the first Dean. Well what it in was. The reason I brought this up was that dentists, dentists as lawyers, learned their trade in another dentist‟s office and that is how my father learned his trade. He learned it from, it became a profession, but he learned it from his father. And my, his father taught dentistry to many another dentists and our family was a dental family, because the uncles and my pr and cousins become dentists. And, my brother later became a dentist. But he, by the time that he was ready to become a dentist, the school had been established, of course Grandfather had, it was in his day that the school was established. And he went to the university and he came back. Well, then father built this for his office and it was a very nice home, fourteen room home. The Barth, I think there was a family by the name of Barth that lived next door on the north, on the corner. We were the second house. The house where the Imperial is today had been the Amberg home. And, they moved away about the time that we came in. You see, Sheldon apparently was changing somewhat in its nature. It was a degenerating, deteriorating somewhat. Not, not too much but a little bit because it was near downtown. And the Ambergs went out to Cherry Street to live. That was Julius Amberg‟s and Hazel Amberg‟s family. The Hazel A. is named after her, are on, the boat on the lake, and of course on one of the boats on the lake was named after Major Watson. The, that was a red brick house and surrounded with an iron wrought… Interviewer: Fence. Miss Robinson: …fence in front of it. Then the next home was, belonged to a man by the name of General [Byron] Pierce. They moved away when I was a small girl and I don‟t remember too much about them. And the next house belonged to Charlie Leonard. And I think this is a rather attractive story. They were there when we first moved there and mother said that Mrs. Charlie Leonard told her that she couldn‟t sleep nights because of [Mr. and Mrs. Clarence] Peck‟s baby, that‟s Clara, and Johnson‟s cow who lived on, kitty-corner. The Doctor Johnson lived kittycorner from the Leonards and they kept her awake, the cow kept her awake at night and the cow evidently was pastured between the Johnson home on Sheldon and Division Avenue, in a vacant lot. Now I talked with Agnes about that, and Agnes said she didn‟t remember anything about the Johnsons having a cow but I know my mother told me that. But Agnes remembered that, the �7 [George H.] Longs in the third block up, had a cow and that, just was disturbing some, disturbing sometimes and they brought it in on, into their yard and milked it at night. And, so you can see what Sheldon Avenue, how different it is today. The corner, where the Leonards lived, they didn‟t stay there too long. Across the road was the old All Souls Universalists Church, where I went to Sunday School. And there were a good many prominent people going to that church. My mother was an Episcopalian but my family, my father‟s family who had come from Concord and had, they had gone to the old meeting house, that first old meeting house during, which had been built there in Concord, the very first one and where the Concord, well Massachusetts had a provincial congress that met there at that meeting house and they voted to separate from England, in that old meeting house, and my grandfather had been born there, right next door to the meeting house. Well, let‟s see, what was I going to tell you? Oh, All Soul‟s Church had in it Judge [Willis] Perkins and his wife, the [Eilert] Clements family, Earle Clements and Roy Clements went there. The [Albert] Hicks [family], there was Russell Hicks and Kenneth Hicks going there. Mary Louise Powers and her mother the per, Powers. She‟s a teacher here. They went there. She had my, one of the Sunday School classes. The [William] Collins no, the [Ralph P.] Tietsort family. Yes and I guess Helen Collins. Helen Tietsort and Helen Collins went there to Sunday School, and the Hilton girls they were friends of my aunts went there and Judge Perkins was the head of the Sunday School and wait a moment, Marion Sprague, no what was her uncle‟s, her father‟s name? They lived up here on Madison. He was prominent, I think it was Sprague. Yes. It was Sprague and very prominent people living up here on Madison Avenue. They came down to the All Souls Church and one of the early ministers there was a Mr. [Charles] Fluhrer, and he was very prominent, and mother who was an Episcopalian would go with Father there and of course they sat, and Aunt Molly [Mary B. Robinson] lived with us. Grandpa and Aunt Molly came to live with us from Jackson, Michigan. Grandpa, Grandma had died when I was, the year I was born at eighty-five and Grandpa came to live when he was eighty-five, and Aunt Molly came and lived with me until I was thirty years old, and I was only a year old. Aunt Molly was a singer. Well, she went there, she, her name was Robinson, her name was Mary Robinson and she hadn‟t married. And then, let‟s see who else went there? Of course there was Mary Perkins and Margaret Perkins and June Perkins; they were all children of Judge [Willis B.] Perkins. They were down there, and Willis Perkins, they were all down there at that Sunday School. And it was a nice Sunday School and I remember the chicken-pie suppers we used to have there and on Christmas night every year Santy Clause always came and I was so excited because everybody, we all got a box of candy, Christmas candy in a box that looked like a chimney and a Santy Claus gave us all a gift. Then I‟d go home to my home and mother would tell me I could have some bread and milk and go to bed because Santy Claus had to come and to, bring down the chimney and then while I was eating the taking my bread and milk, my brother who was fifteen years older than I, would go around and knock on the window and I thought it was Santy Claus that was knocking on the window, and I would jump up, I‟d knock my milk over and I‟d go to bed. And then when we‟d come down in the morning the grate is the fire, that we had a fireplace. We had a quite modern house for those days because a lot of my friends tell me that they still had oil lamps. We had gas and electricity. Electricity was somewhat new and we had a furnace, a hot air, hot water furnace in the house. It was a fourteen room house and the pressure from the city was not too strong so it just brought the water into the city water into the house on the lower floor. And so we had a hydraulic pump in our kitchen. And we had a cistern and there were two faucets on the hydraulic, pump and one, pump would, one faucet would bring up, the water to a tank, we had a tank room on the second floor, and the water would be carried �8 up from that pump to that tank. And then we had our water in the bathroom you see. From the tank that was on the second floor, in the, just back of the bathroom. And we all, we drew up the city water, from other faucet. And later the, the cistern we just had to, it grew so commercial down there, so much smoke that we couldn‟t use the cisterns anymore and we had to disconnect that. Anyway we disconnected, then we had a new pipe brought in and we had water sent up from the city without the hydraulic pump. And at the, in that house, it was modern enough so that we had a switch on the first floor that we could light the electric light in the hall upstairs. And I think that was, for eighteen ninety-three was quite, quite modern. And we also had, we had hot water in the winter. We had, in our bathroom upstairs, and later we had, one of those old, instantaneous heaters over the bathtub to bring hot water. But of course the first years in the summer, we always had to heat our water in the tea-kettle. In the kitchen we had gas, we had a range, a wood or coal range, and on one end of it there was a boiler for hot water that we used for our dishes. We did, and we had to heat our water in the, later we put in a gas, a gas stove. I can remember having leg aches; they called it growing pains in those days. I don‟t know what, what it was, I out grew it anyway I used to go and sit with my leg on the edge of that, oven. Then, up the next block there were, there were the, beyond the church was the Doctor [F. Josephus] Groner home and then the Foster Stevens. Mr. Stevens, Mr. Sidney Stevens owned a very lovely home. And he was one of his, the owners of Foster and Stevens stores down on, down on Monroe. That was a very large and very lovely store. Hardware on the first floor and beautiful china on the second floor, and the Mr. Rood, I think was the buyer of that china, up there in that, Foster-Stevens Store. The next, his brother was Wilder, but he didn‟t live on Sheldon. Next to it was Agnes Caulfield‟s home, or Mr. Caulfield‟s home, Agnes was the youngest of the children. There was a Mr. Caulfield owned a grocery, wholesale grocery store, a whole, not store, a wholesale grocery company. And he must have made a lot of his money thru real estate, throughout the city. And their home was a lovely Victorian brick home, and the children were; George, Marie, maybe Marie was the oldest, Stella, Agnes and John. John married Clara Peck, later on. Interviewer: What, could we, I think this tape‟s about all over so I‟m going to turn it over O.K.? Miss Robinson: Yes, Alright. Interviewer: You were saying who married Clara Peck…? Miss Robinson: Well, John, the youngest of the Caulfield family married Clara Peck after her tragedy with Arthur Waite. She first married Arthur Waite and, you know that story. I don‟t, don‟t know whether I‟d better put it in or not. Interviewer: No, it‟s that‟s alright…. Miss Robinson: No, most everybody knows… Interviewer: If anybody wants to know they can certainly find out… �9 Miss Robinson: Yes, but after her tragedy, John Caulfield courted Clara, she had gone to California to live, and had a very lovely home in Pasadena. Both John Caulfield and Voigt, Ralph Voigt went out to spend the winter out there and I think they probably both were, maybe they were, I don‟t know of course their intentions, I don‟t know was, the, I don‟t know Mr. Voigt‟s intentions, but he was out there with, with John during that same winter and almost everybody thought that the two people were, courting Clara, but John was the one that married her. And they lived in California from then on. One of the most prominent members of the Caulfield family was Anna and she was among, I don‟t know, I think, I don‟t know where she‟s, whether she was the oldest or not. I, I don‟t know whether George or she. I didn‟t mention her before did I? Interviewer: No Miss Robinson: Or Marie, she was a very attractive woman and a very brilliant woman and she studied art. And became a very authority, connoisseur would you say of in art. She brought to Grand Rapids the Alliance Française, or she started one and she also started a dramatic club. And she was president of the Ladies Literary which was right across from where I lived. The Ladies Literary Club must have been founded in eighteen seventy for it had its hundredth birthday last year in nineteen seventy. Agnes, Anna was, wore beautiful clothes and she was a very, gracious president. I can remember the Ladies Literary Club from a very small child, it had a great many of the prominent women of Grand Rapids in it and who, numbers of whom were presidents. Mother was a member and I used to like to go over there when, when there was no club going, where there was nothing when I was a little girl. And I, if the janitor was there I‟d go in there, sometimes, I‟d, the club was a little different than it is today, It‟s been made over. It was, it had a flat floor, today it has a raised floor, for, had a flat floor and all the chairs were caned bottomed, they were oak cane bottomed. And the platform now you have to go enter the platform from the back of the stage. At that time it was not as high as it is and it, you could, you could go up by steps. There were three wide steps that go up. And it was very pretty, very attractive. It had two lovely tables, I remember and two lovely chairs up there. They didn‟t have as many dishes in those days. There were two rooms back there as it. It didn‟t it, they haven‟t changed the plan of it, the auditorium and the stage had been changed. Mrs. [Loraine] Immen was a very prominent woman there, she had Shakespeariana; she was the head of the Shakespeariana. My mother was a member of that. Some of the, she‟s given a window in the Ladies Literary, a beautiful window in the, in the front room. It was given in, I don‟t know, I think she gave it. Her class, she was a very brilliant woman and her classes were very brilliant. Then there was a Mrs. Fletcher. Now Mrs. Fletcher I‟m not sure just how she was related to Mrs. Ward and Mrs. Ward is related to the Corneliuses. But Mrs. Fletcher was the second wife and I think Mrs. Ward was the daughter of the first wife. I don‟t know, she was the mother of the Corneliuses, wasn‟t she? I, I may not… Interviewer: Yes? Miss Robinson: I‟m not very straight on this. They owned the Fletcher block that was on the corner of Division and Weston, not far from me. Mrs. Fletcher had a Shakespeare group in the club. I don‟t know whether Shakespeariana was outside the club in those days or not but it is today. Mother belonged to both of them and Mrs. Fletcher thought that she was her star pupil because Mother was a very beautiful reader. When I was coming, Mother had to retire from the �10 Shakespeare Group and Mrs. Fletcher was quite disappointed when she had one of her star pupils leaving. Well, that, I can remember going down to the Fletcher Block. That was the corner, was a saloon there later, but I think there were rooms up there that Mr. Fletcher owned. People lived above buildings in those days. I mean they were not just scum, but quite nice people. In fact, I think my mother and father on Monroe Avenue, till he got started in his business, had rooms right in, next to his office, above the Herkner building. Interviewer: Yes? Miss Robinson: And, other people lived all those rooms are all empty now you know, but they, and there was a restaurant, a quite a stylish restaurant down there under the Herkner. But I‟m wandering, the Fletchers, I lived there and I used to like to as a little girl, run up into the Fletchers. I‟d go up the back door, on Island Street and Mrs. Fletcher would give me maple sugar candies. That‟s how I remember Mrs. Fletcher. But she was a very bright woman and carried on the Shakespeare group in the Ladies Literary Club. They had, at one time; Mrs. Russell was the president, Mrs., what was his name? She was a Comstock. Interviewer: He was a Comstock, Mr…. Miss Robinson: No, a Mrs. Russell was a Comstock, Mr. Russell, and Mrs. Boltwood was her sister. They were Comstock sister, Comstock was named hot little town, he owned all that land, out there now…. Interviewer: I think that, I think that the way it was, was because I‟ve interviewed the Russells is that Mr. Russell was the Comstock and Mrs. Russell was a Hopson. Miss Robinson: No that‟s, you‟re talking about the son. I‟m about the, Mrs. The older people. Interviewer: Oh, OK, I see. Miss Robinson: Mr. Russell and Mrs. Boltwood. Mrs., that Mrs. Russell was the father of Francis Russell, and Francis Russell married Lucille Hopson and they went to school with me. Interviewer: I see. Miss Robinson: Francis Russell was in my class in high school. And Lucille Hopson was probably the next class down, a year or so later. And no they‟re my, but this is the older group. They lived up, they lived out at North Park, not North Park, near the Soldier‟s home and we, in Mrs. Russell‟s home they had a very beautiful, ballroom and gave many, a young parties out there for the young people of the town. There was Francis Russell and his older brother, Charles Russell, he, they still live out in that home out there. And then, Mrs. Boltwood lived on the, there was Wealthy-Taylor bus that went out, out there and went right between those two houses. The Boltwoods on, near the river. Now the Boltwoods and the Russells owned all that river land and they gave it to the city and it, it‟s a park land. It was given on condition that they would redeem it from the swamps; it was in the swamp land. And maybe, at this time I‟m diverging from Sheldon Avenue but during the war, Lucius Boltwood was in the army. I suppose Francis was �11 too, I don‟t know, but I knew, I knew Lucius. And, Lucius was, tried to get in the army. He was turned down many times and then he was, he wanted to go into the Navy and he couldn‟t get in. This is the First World War. And then he went into, he finally got, he was finally drafted. He‟d been turned down time and again and during this time, he was engaged to a Marian Berkey, who married him and before, I think he went to war. Yes, I‟m sure because he died in the war. And she was, became Marian Boltwood. You see and then later, she‟s Mrs. Whinery now. She married Ingles Whinery, after a number of years after Lucius Boltwood‟s death. Well, I was telling, the reason I brought in the Boltwoods and the Russells on Sheldon Avenue was because they were, Mrs. Russell and Mrs. Boltwood were both presidents of the Ladies Literary Club at different times and as a little girl, the Ladies Literary Club, when it was first new, you know that was one of the first big clubs in the ladies clubs in the United States. It was known all over for its wonderful programs, they brought in such marvelous people and Anna McKnight, Anna Caulfield McKnight when she was president, brought a great many of the, she brought Mr. Roosevelt and Mr. Taft and many prominent people before, while most of the ladies clubs of the country were just having well, programs among themselves. Interviewer: Yes. Miss Robinson: What do you call them, what‟s the word I want to use, homemade programs, current events and so forth. Well, mother would go over to the Ladies Literary. I can remember this first, they had a janitor just half a day in those early days and we were right across the road and very convenient, and they didn‟t have many dishes and they would be going to serve the tea so or they would be going to put, bring flowers down. And they would come down to our home and they couldn‟t get into the club because the Janitor wasn‟t there so they would say “can we leave our things in your vestibule?” And they‟d leave a lot of these different dishes and /or vases in the vestibule and I always thought of it as well I think we were kind of an annex to the Ladies Literary Club. And then after the membership after the club was over, a lot of mother‟s friends would come over and we almost had a reception there, following the Ladies Literary Club. Well, then when Mrs. Russell and some of these people that mother knew became president, then she, they weren‟t quite so strict about letting people in those days, she would think of me , I was thirteen or fourteen years old and she would think of me and think, oh I wish Doris could go over and hear that program. So she would go up to some one of the ladies and say, “Can I get a ticket, a guest ticket for my daughter?” And they‟d say “Just bring her over.” So I remember that when Mr. Roosevelt, that is what happened when Mr. Roosevelt came to town. Anna McKnight was then president. Anna Caulfield McKnight and she gave mama permission to bring me over, and I sat on my front porch at the time be, before mother came over, and up the street came Mr. Roosevelt in a very elegant carriage, with someone driving and some prominent man beside him. And he went in to the club house, and then I, Mama came and got me and I went over and I heard Mr. Teddy Roosevelt talk and he was very much impressed with Mrs. McKnight. She was a very gracious woman, very, very educated, very cultured and a connoisseur. I told you before in art. Later Mrs. Knight, Mrs. Cau, of course Anna, she was Anna Caulfield; she married Mr. [William F.] McKnight, a prominent lawyer here and they built up on the, or they bought up on the corner of Fountain and Lafayette, right next to the Shelby home. That is where Anna, is living to, that is �12 where Agnes is living today. A Mrs. McKnight went later to France and lived there quite a while and met very prominent people there and she had photographs of many prominent people there where she had her, photographs of many prominent men that she had met here in America when, Agnes has them there I think on their grand piano. They‟re very, it‟s quite, I would say a very valuable collection of pictures. Well, then across the road, let‟s see if I can think of anything else, George, oh well Marie, Marie was a very attractive, oh I know what I wanted to tell you about, I can remember Marie and Stella, she, Stella was one of the children. Stella and, she was a friend of my mother‟s though quite younger, they, they would pass our house and I was a little girl and I can just see those girls with their trains and their lovely, full skirts, ruffled skirts and lovely picture hats with lovely parasols. Every, these girls in those days carried parasols and they looked just beautiful, I can remember that so well. And of course, John was older than I, oh I would say he was quite a bit older than I but he was and he was younger than my brother. My brother was fifteen years older. My brother, I think, maybe I‟d tell a little bit about my father and my brother in my home, there before I go get through. My father had been a prominent dentist and when he came to Grand Rapids, there were just nine dentists in the town. And he was quite aggressive in a way, he was, I think he was a popular man, I think he was very much liked because he died when I was five and I can remember him but I had so many people, Mrs. Russell, Mrs. Boltwood use to come to me and say, your father was such a nice man. And he had quite a big (practice?) at the time on Sheldon he had built his practice up to quite a good practice of quite prominent people. There the Voigts that came to him and the Russells and the Boltwoods, but of course I was so young I can‟t remember all the rest, I just remember my mother telling me, and I can remember that he died of diphtheria. Interviewer: How did he catch diphtheria? Miss Robinson: Nobody in this city no, had it and we don‟t know but we think it might have been a carrier because he practiced, you see, he was practicing dentistry and he worked over their mouths and he might have had it and it was very, very, virulent black diphtheria in those days. An antitoxin was just new. And I was taken out, I had had the grippe, and I had a nurse, and that nurse went right over to my father who had colic, they called it colic but what I think it was appendicitis. I don‟t think they knew what an appendicitis was, and I think he had actually, every once in a while he would have an attack of colic, and I think it must have been his appendix that were not right. And then so this, he had colic and then he went down to Dr. Randall, no Rankin. Dr. Rankin was a prominent throat man and a doctor, no he didn‟t go... Yes, Dr. Rankin operated on his throat. And I think, that was the worst thing in the world that may, he may he had throat trouble, and he didn‟t go for his colic but he went down there evidently for this throat that would, left a raw place and he had, he had, black diphtheria starts in the nose and they didn‟t recognized it and he was very, very ill when they recognized it. Well, they took me out and they took me to the Bradley, to the Bradford home, and it was a farm out on West Leonard that was all farmland there, no none of these houses. And the [Charles] Bradfords were very good friends of my mother‟s and father‟s and one of the Bradfords married an Afkin and the other Bradford, Leona, of course she was a child older than I at that time but, she married Mr. [Arthur M.] Godwin of the bank. What‟s his first name? Interviewer: I don‟t �13 Miss Robinson: Mrs. Godwin, Mrs. Per, Mrs. Godwin was here, Lillian, Lily Godwin, she was a Perkins, she married a Perkins and Mable Perkins is her sister-in-law. Well, Mr. Godwin‟s first wife, he was vice president of the Grand Rapids Savings Bank and his first wife was Leona Bradford. And that‟s where I was, out there on that Bradford farm at the time of my father‟s death. But I was five years old and, in those days it was, of course, that was quarantined. They had two nurses then and so Dr. [D. Emmett] Welch became his doctor and Dr. Welch was one of the prominent doctors in the throat, ear, nose and throat. He married Fanny McCrath, a very prominent family here who lived on Cherry Street near Jefferson. And right up on in the cemetery where my father is buried in Oak Hill, my family plot, is in McGraths, a large tombstone for the McCraths. Dr. Welch is buried there and Mrs. Fanny McCrath Welch is buried right next to where all my and then the Davises are, that live on Fountain are right next to us, and the Waters mausoleum is right there. I grew up there, I don‟t go very often, my father didn‟t like it, didn‟t want anybody to go. We go once a year. Well, now what else oh, I‟m up on the corner of the Caulfield house, I diverged there and told them a little bit about my family. Anything I want to tell anymore about that, I guess not. Across the road from the Caulfields was Johnny Burns home, now that, remember that‟s an older family. That isn‟t the John Burns that died later, that, the mother of Mrs. Alexi Burns, that‟s her grandfather. Well, they were a prominent family and they had a daughter, a son John Burns and a daughter who was Mrs. Hollow and they had s son, he, the grandson lived there. Well, he was quite a gay young fellow. They had a lot of money, they were very wealthy people you know the Burns. You know Mrs. Burns, don‟t you? She just died. Don‟t you know who Alexi Burns is? Interviewer: No. Miss Robinson: Oh, they were prominent people here and they were very prominent and very wealthy. An Irish family and there are I „m thinking why I‟m smiling a little bit, he was quite a friend of the McGurrin boys who lived up in the block on another side of the road. There was Mickey McGurrin and I can‟t think of the names. Tom sometimes I used to know him by, but that isn‟t the name I know. The Woodcocks lived on the corner and the Woodcock boys were Harold Woodcock and Robert Woodcock, they never married. But that was a big brick house, very in that this is the block that‟s just this side, that‟s I‟m talking about that‟s just this side of the Catholic Church. And this block had a number of Catholic families in it; quite wealthy Catholic families. Interviewer: Now that is which street? Miss Robinson: What? Interviewer: Which street is that? Miss Robinson: It‟s Sheldon. Interviewer: Sheldon. �14 Miss Robinson: It‟s on Sheldon, the corner of Sheldon and Cherry. The Woodcocks, and they were a wealthy family, they were across Cherry Street from the Caulfields. Johnny Burns was across the road from, on Sheldon Street. He was on the corner of Cherry on the west, the northwest corner of Cherry, and then the Turners who was the, who started, who owned the Eagle newspaper. Lived on the, I think his name was Aaron Turner, and who lived on the north, we, the southwest corner. Burns‟ lived on the northwest corner and Turner lived on the southwest corner and the Woodcocks and with their sons Harold and Bob, who many people will know here in this town, the one just died recently, lived on that other corner. The second house next to the Woodcocks was the, was the McGurrin House and there was Mickey McGurrin and we‟ll call him Gerald McGurrin. Gerald McGurrin. I think he‟s known by Tom too. Mickey McGurrin was quite a friend of Bern Halls. Burn Hall was the grandson of John, the Burns. They were, he was about my age, a little older, these and they had a gang. And up here on Cherry, on a Fulton Street lived Brandt Walker and Brandt Walker told me they had a gang. Brandt is dead now, he lived between Lafayette and Prospect and they had a gang. But they were not quite; they were a little milder than the McGurrin gang. And they were scared to death for fear the McGurrin gang would come up and attack them. And they had their barns filled with stones they‟d collected stones and they were ready for an attack. And sometimes they did, the two gangs got together, I guess and had good little fights. Well, Irene McGurrin became a music teacher in the schools and Mr. McGurrin was General McGurrin, a general in the Army during the War of 1812. Oh, the war, Spanish-American War. The Spanish-American War. And later he was made head of the Soldier‟s Home, out on the North end where the Veterans are now. It was the Soldiers‟ Home and he was demoted, well he was Colonel because that was the actual title that went with that home, that office. They were quite a colorful family, I think, and I can see him riding horses during the parades that came up Monroe Avenue on Decoration Day, he always led a company. There‟d be the coming those parades would have soldiers of the, GOP is it? Interviewer: G.A.R. Miss Robinson: G.A.R. Interviewer: Grand Army Republicans Miss Robinson: Grand, yes Grand G.O.P. is Republicans. Interviewer: Republicans. Miss Robinson: Grand Party of the Republican and then, they kept getting older and older each year and then they finally couldn‟t march anymore and they‟d come in carriages and then finally there were none at all. And then, there would be the second, army thing would come up would be a regiment of the Americans, Spanish-American War, and I can remember when that war ended, and all the Dewey‟s pictures that would be in all the windows and I can remember when Mr. McKinley died. They had his picture in the window draped in black. He was, of course killed by an anarchist at Buffalo. I can remember I was seven years old I think and I ran out and told the people next door that Mr. McKinley was gone. �15 Interviewer: How did you get the news? Miss Robinson: My mother. Newspapers, extras would come out, all the different newspapers; we had two, three papers in town. There was the Herald which had been the Eagle. Mr. Turner so got old, made his money I guess, he was the head of the Grand Rapids Eagle and he sold it or it became the Herald, I think he lost his money and he had something to do with and William Alden Smith was a Newsboy I think on that paper and they knew him quite well through that and he I think Mr. Turner lost his money and Mr. Smith recommended somebody to buy it and he sold his paper to him and he never got his money out of it. Interviewer: Yes? Miss Robinson: It was beautiful where he lived in that beautiful white house on the southwest corner. I don‟t know, I can remember one or two incidents that Mrs. Moser, she was the daughter of Mr. Turner and lived in that house. Interviewer: Now that house on the southwest corner of…. Miss Robinson: Yes, Cherry and Sheldon. Interviewer: OK. Miss Robinson: Across from Johnny Burns on one corner and Mrs. Woodcock on the other, and Gerald McGurrin, they were good Catholics and Gerald was full. Harry as I told you was the head of a gang and he went up in, he used to go up in that church and he‟d, the Catholic Church and he‟d get into pull the belfry bell and the priest would go after him and he‟d run and one day he ran down Sheldon Street and he got into the Turner home and he ran right through the front door an out the back door and down to Division and after, the priest, Mrs. Moser told me. She said we never gave Gerald away to the priest but he was the one that pulled the rope. Then there was another family on that side, another two families. There were the [George H] Longs right next door to the [Aaron B.] Turners. . Mr. Long was a lumberman and he made a great deal of money thru lumber. It was a beautiful red brick house trimmed in white and there were a number of daughters. He was quite, I don‟t know what to say here in public about him. Because he had a daughter, maybe you better put that out but he had a very lovely wife and very lovely daughters. There was Emma and she became Mrs. [John P.] Homiller. There was Helen, I can‟t remember what her name was but her daughter is Mrs. Kendall, out here. And then there was Anna and she married Alex McPherson and their daughter is Anna, Margret McPherson the music teacher here. And the youngest was Louise. I can remember Louise better than the others. Though I did meet Mrs., they were grown up you see when I was still little. But I can see Louise passing our house and she was educated in France, I think. And he was very strict with his daughters but, in some ways they were afraid of him, I think. They were a colorful family. Now I can‟t go into the all the details I‟ve just heard it repeated you know. Interviewer: OK. �16 Miss Robinson: Doctor Sinclair a homeopathic doctor was our doctor and he lived next door to the McGurrins, the third house down. It was the Woodcocks, the McGurrins and the Sinclairs. He was a doctor M.C. He had a brother in town here by the name of Dan. D. S. I guess Doctor D. S. and M. C., Sinclair and he was, I just loved Dr. Sinclair, he was, they don‟t have homeopathic doctors anymore. He was didn‟t believe, they didn‟t believe in the other, other doctors were allopaths and their idea, oh I think it was to give medicine that was of the same type. I‟m not sure, I might get it mixed up, but I know their medicines tasted good. There never was anything bad in that you tasted, they tasted of sugar and they even when they were water, put it into a glass of water they never tasted bad. He was a lovely man. And Jean his daughter married Mr. Curtis who was president of the Old Kent Bank at one time. And they lived up on Fulton Street here and Douglas Sinclair was the son. Interviewer: I think that‟s about it Miss Robinson: Alright. Interviewer: I think that was a very good interview though Miss Robinson: Was it? Interviewer: Yes. INDEX A F Alliance Française Club · 10 Amberg Family · 7 Fletcher, Mrs. · 10, 11 B G Godfrey Family · 3, 4 Boltwood Family · 11, 12, 13 Booth Family · 3, 4 Burns Family · 14, 15, 16 C Carroll, Mr. and Mrs. · 5 Caulfield Family · 4, 9, 12, 13, 14 Clements Family · 7 Collins Family · 7 D Davis Family · 14 H Hicks Family · 7 I Immen, Loraine · 10 L Ladies Literary Club · 5, 10, 11, 12 Leonard Family · 7, 14 �17 M Russell, Mr. and Mrs. · 7, 11, 12, 13 McKnight, Anna · 4, 12, 13 S P Shelby Family · 3, 4 Perkins Family · 8 Perkins, Judge · 7, 14 Putnam, Mrs. · 5, 6 U R Robinson, Albert (Father) · 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 10, 11, 13, 14 Robinson, Jennie M. Baker (Mother) · 2, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 16 Robinson, Mary P. (Aunt Molly) · 8 Roosevelt, President Theodore · 12, 13 University of Michigan · 6 W Ward, Mrs. · 10 Watson, Major Amasa B. · 2, 4, 5, 7 Winegar Family · 2 Woodcock Family · 15, 17 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2b7f136dcd276cee4d38435a209846b9.mp3 309fb3e1b9ad60260bb1524891f55f12 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_34Robinson Title A name given to the resource Robinson, Doris Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robinson, Doris Description An account of the resource Doris Robinson was born in 1893 in Grand Rapids, where she lived her whole life. Her father was a dentist. She once saw Theodore Roosevelt at the Ladies' Literary Club when she was fourteen years old. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e1953836938e284f806a35fcf641cb9e.pdf 7cf8c917b431f943bb72bc6210be4472 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Miss Evangeline Maurits Interviewed on October 5, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #33 (59:59) Biographical Information Marguerite Evangeline Maurits was born 30 July 1900 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. She was the daughter of Dr. Reuben and Angeline (De Bey) Maurits. Miss Maurits died 26 March 1986 in Grand Rapids at the age of 85. Reuben Maurits was born at Vriesland, Ottawa County, Michigan on 29 October 1870, the son of William J. and Grietje (Rychel) Maurits from Nijmegen, Netherlands. Reuben died 11 November 1947 in Grand Rapids. Angeline De Bey was the daughter of William and Eva (Takken) De Bey. Angeline was born in Illinois about March 1873 and died in Grand Rapids, Michigan on 3 February 1954. Angeline and Reuben were married in Chicago, Illinois on 25 November 1897. ___________ Interviewer: This interview with Miss Evangeline Maurits was recorded October 5, 1971. Miss Maurits, you mentioned where your father was born? Miss Maurits: He was born in Vriesland, Michigan, on a farm. And he was the only one of ten children that had a college education. And, he went to Ann Arbor in medical, graduated from medical school there, and he became a specialist in anesthesia. Interviewer: And where was this practice located in Grand Rapids? Miss Maurits: In Grand Rapids. He was on a board at Blodgett hospital mostly. But he gave anesthesia to all the rocky cases and all the doctors here in town, Richard Smith and all of them would ask for father if they had rocky case. Interviewer: What’s a rocky case? Miss Maurits: Well, if, has a, probably has a heart problem. Interviewer: Ok. Miss Maurits: Heart complication and he gave the first continuous spinal operation in Grand Rapids. Interviewer: Your father did? Miss Maurits: Yes, and he always was the first one to give any new anesthesia that ever came to town or ever came in use. �2 Interviewer: You mentioned in your home as well? Miss Maurits: In our home we, the first home they built, and I was born in that house on the corner of Lake Drive and Eastern,, and it was an old four story building and it was just made into apartments and my father had his office in the basement and it had a separate entrance. And he had his laboratory down there and two rooms. And he conducted his office there for a good many years. I don’t know just how long, till the Metz Building was built, I imagine then he went in the Metz. Building. Interviewer: How, you mentioned that he extracted teeth as well as tonsils? Miss Maurits: Well, of course at that time they didn’t have, they never went to hospitals, they, and they wouldn’t stay overnight for a tonsillectomy, they just took them out in the offices. And father pulled teeth and took tonsils out there for until they became, went to the hospitals for those things. And of course, father never did take out tonsils unless it was only when he was in this general practice, when there weren’t specialists in that sort of thing. Interviewer: It was quite a general practice wasn’t it? Miss Maurits: Oh, Yes. Interviewer: …teeth to tonsils? Miss Maurits: Everything. Interviewer: Someone told me that your family somewhere in your background, there was some… are you Dutch? Miss Maurits: Yes, on both sides. Interviewer: That your family came from the Netherlands. Miss Maurits: Both my grandparents came from the Netherlands. My grandmother’s parents came from Utrecht and my father’s parents came from Nijmegen right in Holland. But my parents were both born in this, this country. Interviewer: Were, were your grandparents, were they important people in Holland? Miss Maurits: Yes, they were, my grandfather, my great-grandfather on my mother’s side was, they were in Chicago when they came over and he was the large, Dutch Dominai as they called him, the ministers at that time were all called Dominais and he was the very famous Dominai of Chicago. And the name was deBey, small “de” capital “ B”, that’s French Huguenot. And my father is related somehow, I don’t know exactly how, to Prince Maurits in The Hague. And they, the Mauritshuis are in the Hague right now, and Prince Maurits picture is in the museum. Interviewer: Why did your grandparents leave Holland? �3 Miss Maurits: I really haven’t any idea. I imagine the same thing everybody did, for religious freedom. I don’t know. Interviewer: Did your, did you grow, spend all your growing years up in the house on Lake Drive…? Miss Maurits: On Lake Drive until I was, we sold it I think I was around twenty. Interviewer: What was that neighborhood like when you were growing up? Miss Maurits: Well, that was the edge of town at that time. We couldn’t get a maid because it was too far out, and it was just, well it was empty lots all around us. Across the street it was all empty lots and my father kept his car. He had one of the first cars in Grand Rapids, he kept his car across the street there because we didn’t have a garage at that time and since then we built a garage and I used to think that was an enormous yard but you look at it today and it’s just about ten feet wide. Interviewer: Was it wider then? Miss Maurits: No, it wasn’t it just seemed so big. Interviewer: Because of all the open space around it. Miss Maurits: Yes, it was more, wider than ten feet of course. Interviewer: When did your father get his first car? Miss Maurits: I think I was about three years old. We had a horse and buggy. Maybe I was younger. I don’t remember, but I know he had one of these cars with the rod that every time it turned around it hit you, you know just, not a steering wheel, just a rod, and a do-si-do seat. Interviewer: What’s a do-si-do seat? Miss Maurits: Back to back. Interviewer: Well, when did buildings start, when did other houses start to be built around you. Miss Maurits: Well, I imagine, probably in nineteen ten or-twelve, somewhere in there. Interviewer: Was your family very involved in the Dutch community here? Mrs. Maurits: Not too much so. We didn’t go to the Dutch church or anything like that, we went to the Bethany Church but it was the English speaking church, and my mother and father were quite advanced in their thinking and they joined Fountain Street Church long before, when I was just, well when Mr. Fuller was there. And, I don’t even remember him, but he was one of the first ministers there. Well, my family were a little more liberal than the Dutch at that time, they �4 were interested in advancing their thoughts on the liberal side of life so that’s why they joined Fountain Street ... Interviewer: That was quite a break… Miss Maurits: Yes, it was a great break, but they enjoyed Fountain Street Church and they enjoyed Dr. Wishart so very, very much and of course when, since Duncan Littlefair has been there (that was), my father and mother were very satisfied and very happy to be there. Interviewer: What were the, were there certain churches at that time that were “the churches to go to”? Were there certain churches that were more important in the activities of the city than others? Miss Maurits: Well, I think that the Fountain Street was the most liberal. It always had the most liberal, ministers and thoughts and every, in every way and there was, of course, the Park Congregational Church. And that has since split. Half of it is there and half of it is the Mayflower Church; and of course, the Episcopal Churches. But Fountain Street had all so very many lecture courses and everything that was interesting in the world today was discussed there, at the Fountain Street for years. Interviewer: Yes. I was going to ask a question, oh, your schooling here in town, where did you go to school? Miss Maurits: Well, I went to Congress Street School first. Then I went to Mrs. Eastman’s private school and then Fountain Street for a year or two and then I went to Ferry Hall in Illinois. Interviewer: Where was Mrs. Simpson’s school? Miss Maurits: Mrs. Eastman’s school. Interviewer: Mrs. Eastman’s school. Miss Maurits: She was on Barclay. A lot of the people here from Grand Rapids as children went there to school. Interviewer: Can you tell me a little about the school, was it in her house? Miss Maurits: In her house, yes, it was in her house. And she was a very lovely person and they were small classes, maybe two or three in a class. And she had all grades and very fine teachers. Interviewer: Did your course of study, pretty much parallel the same course of study in the public school? Miss Maurits: As far as I know, it did. Interviewer: Why did your parents choose to send you to Mrs. Eastman’s (school). �5 Miss Maurits: Well I was an only child and they just thought it was better to be in smaller classes. Interviewer: You, you mentioned, that you spent a good deal of time, studying music, voice. Miss Maurits: Yes, well you see my mother was, sang from the time as far as I, long as I can remember. She was a soloist in all the churches here in town and she started with Mrs. Loomis, who was a very famous musician here in town and she was an organist and they had a quartet at Westminster [Presbyterian] Church and she was there for a good many years. Then she was also the soloist later at Park Congregational Church. And then when Emery Gallup came to Grand Rapids, he was the organist at Fountain Street Church, I think it was even before that, that Mother was soloist there and she and I both sang in all the oratorios as soloists at Fountain Street. And I remained there a soloist for a good many years after Mother. Interviewer: Did, was she active in the Saint Cecilia? Miss Maurits: Yes, she was very active in the Saint Cecilia. She used to sing there on the programs and also at Mrs. Tom Irwin, who was a very good friend of hers. They used to sing duets. And Mrs. Nye who has since died, they both died; and then there used to be plays here with Miss Calla Travis and my mother took the part of the Queen Esther at one time. And we all as children took part in these dancing plays. We all went to Miss Calla’s dancing class. Calla Travis. And at Fountain Street we gave, all the oratorios, Christmas oratorio, all the Bach oratorios. And the Creation and all the oratorios there. And either mother or myself sang the solos. I sang the solos in the Creation, in the Christmas oratorio and in the Saint Matthew Passion. And I think Mother did some of those too. So we’ve been in that all our lives. Interviewer: What, can you tell me a little about Saint Cecilia, the importance it had in the town and… Miss Maurits: Well, the important thing was that these women were bound they were going to have a building of their own, that they had built and paid for; and there was a big article in the paper, last Sunday I think, did you see it? Which told how they took over the paper and they made, this was in the eighteen eigthies and they made money and it wasn’t, I think in the early nineteen hundreds when they finally paid off their mortgage and it’s about one of the only buildings in the United States that was put on by women and paid for by women. So that was quite a feat for them to do. And the building now of course is in pretty bad condition but it’s still there and still running. And they’re still having their concerts every Friday afternoon or morning. And they’ve kept that just by their own dues and so forth what they’ve made out of the Saint Cecilia. Interviewer: Are you a member of St. Cecilia now? �6 Miss Maurits: I’m not right at the moment because I have been working before and I haven’t had time, but I expect to again. Interviewer: How many, did most of the women in the society participate in that? Miss Maurits: They were, there were active members and inactive members. The active members had to take an examination to be an active member and that meant that they were a performer. And then they would appear on programs. They had members programs and then they also have always had artist’s programs so that, I think they have six or seven artist programs during the year. Interviewer: Yes. Do you think that the Saint Cecilia was more important to the city then, than it is now? Miss Maurits: No, I think it’s still important to the city. I think it’s very important to the young artists that are coming up and growing up, that they have a place to perform before an audience. Interviewer: Maybe, I mis-stated that question, what, what I was getting at was the opinion, the feeling of the people in the city for the Saint Cecilia. Do you think that the interest and excitement about Saint Cecilia was apparently very great at one time? Is it just as great today or…? Miss Maurits: Well, I think so, it, it’s a matter of comparison. You see the city was so much smaller at that time and that group of musicians were a greater number than they are today because there’s so many, there’s such a big city now. But there’s still a nucleus of musicians here that is very important to the city. Interviewer: Yes. Have you taught music in Grand Rapids? Miss Maurits: Yes, I’ve taught voice here for four or five years. But, I’ve taught out of town more. Interviewer: Do you think that, in your opinion, is music, voice as important to families? Is there as much participation by family members in voice and music today as there was when you were growing up as a child? Miss Maurits: Well, that’s hard to say. I would think so. If there’s talent in the family and they find it early I’m sure they would want to, go on with it, and encourage a child that has it. I don’t know because I have no children, I don’t know but I would think it would be the same. Interviewer: Did you have family recitals when you were a child? Miss Maurits: Oh, yes. My, my father played the violin and my mother sang. So we were a musical family. Hardly a day went by that we didn’t have some music. And the of course, we had records and they came out and, we were very much interested in music. And we had a great �7 many gatherings of people that were musicians. Some friends of mine (were) from Detroit that gave recitals here and we’d have musical gatherings for them. Interviewer: At your home? Miss Maurits: Yes, at my home. And many I’ve had, and many people here in Grand Rapids did the same thing. If they had artists that were friends of theirs they would have a group in and have a little supper and have more music. Interviewer: Did they have special rooms in their homes for this music? Miss Maurits: No, just their living rooms. Interviewer: Was that a fairly common? Miss Maurits: Yes. Yes, it was. There was almost always a party. We don’t have that as much as we had it years ago. There was almost always a party after a Saint Cecilia program or after a symphony program, at someone’s home. Interviewer: And there would be more music at these parties? Miss Maurits: Yes. Interviewer: How, can you describe what a typical Saint Cecilia evening program would be like, how the people got to the auditorium and how they were dressed and what they, in other words, was it exciting? Miss Maurits: Well, years ago, when we had an evening, of course most of the Saint Cecilia programs were in the afternoons, but once in a while, we’d have an evening program and that was always very dressy. But also some of the symphony programs were quite dressy. I mean, people wore evening clothes which we don’t do today. But at the Saint Cecilia they would always have a reception afterward, if it were in the evening and of course at time everyone wore evening clothes. It was quite festive and they had, at the Saint Cecilia, they have a third floor over the auditorium which was a dance floor. That’s where we had our dance lessons with Calla Travis. And if it were a big affair and a big reception, they would serve upstairs. But usually they had a coffee or tea downstairs in the halls. Interviewer: Well, then Saint Cecilia really was, if most of the programs were afternoon programs, it was really developed by women, mainly for women. Miss Maurits: Oh yes, oh yes. There were a few men, of course here, that the organist and some of the men teachers that belonged. But as a whole, it was women. It was an opportunity for women who were musicians and had no place to perform. And it gave them an incentive to work and to practice and to keep up with their musical world. And that is what the Saint Cecilia was founded for and that is what its function was. And it certainly filled that function. �8 Interviewer: Is that still the function? Miss Maurits: Oh, yes, very much so. Interviewer: start? You mentioned the symphony, when, when did the Grand Rapids Symphony Miss Maurits: Oh dear, I really don’t know the year. I don’t know. Interviewer: But it was, was it in existence when you were a child? Miss Maurits: Well, not as a child. But I can remember going to it, I think, when I was in high school. But I really don’t remember. Interviewer: Ok. Was that as important as the Saint Cecilia? Miss Maurits: Yes, in its own way it was. That also was by men, there were, there were men who lived in Grand Rapids who were musicians and started this orchestra. And, it has developed now they have a few outside concert maestros that are probably from other cities. Maybe Kalamazoo and Detroit, but as a whole, they are Grand Rapids people who play in the symphony. And it has grown and advanced greatly in the last years. We’re very, very proud of our symphony now. Interviewer: Well I think ………. INDEX B L Blodgett Hospital · 1 Loomis, Mrs. · 5 C M Congress Street School · 4 F Fountain Street Church · 4, 5 G Gallup, Emery · 5 Maurits, Angeline de Bey (Mother) · 2, 4, 5, 7 Maurits, Dr. Reuben (Father) · 1, 2, 3, 4, 7 Mrs. Eastman’s School · 4, 5 S Saint Cecilia Music Society · 5, 6, 7, 8 T Travis, Calla · 5, 8 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0696844b82ecef5ea8b050ba57358d9b.mp3 65dd9a7693f8ca8ae0580776faec84a4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_33Maurits Title A name given to the resource Maurits, Evangeline Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Maurits, Evangeline Description An account of the resource Evangeline Maurits was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/eb774fc5e5fe62a601ad44d374c46edd.pdf 6bddf84ae4c70d07960293d7837cb77b PDF Text Text Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Dexter, Emma Foote (Mrs. Clarence) Interviewed on October 5, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape # 32 Biographical Information Emma Howe Foote was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on 3 February 1885, the daughter of Elijah Hedding Foote and Frances Amelia Howe. She died 5 January 1983 in Grand Rapids and was interred at Graceland Mausoleum. Emma was married to Clarence S. Dexter in Grand Rapids on 16 January 1908. Clarence was born 4 June 1882 in Chicago, the son of George W. Dexter and Laura A. Sawyer. He died 4 April 1947 in Grand Rapids. Clarence and Emma had two daughters, Frances J. and Dorothy M. Dexter. Emma’s father, Elijah H. Foote was born in Olcott, Niagara County, New York on 24 March 1845, the son of Elijah Foote and Olivia Luce. He died in Lamont, Michigan on 9 September 1920 and was buried in Oak Hill Cemetery in Grand Rapids. Emma’s mother, Frances Amelia Howe was born 16 Apr 1843 in Ravenna, Ohio and was the daughter of Elisha Bigelow Howe and Celestia Russell. Frances died 23 March 1920 in Grand Rapids and was buried in Oak Hill Cemetery. ________ Interviewer: This interview with Mrs. Clarence Dexter was recorded October fifth, nineteen seventy-one. Ok, that’s going now. You, you were just saying your family has been here for approximately five generations. What was your, what was your family’s name? Mrs. Dexter: Well, my father’s name was Foote. My and my mother’s name was Howe. My father was born in Olcott, New York and drove out here and I don’t know when my mother came. She was born in Ohio and came from there to Grand Rapids. And I can’t go back too far but at the time of the Civil War, my Grandfather, and Grandmother Howe lived where the Peninsular Club is today and when my father came home from the Civil War, that’s where they were married and up on Lyon Street, Lyon and College and Fountain Street was the old Civil War campground. My father went from there to the Civil War. There’s a marker, it’s in the Central High School property now because they couldn’t put it in the middle of College Avenue where the old well was during the Civil War. And, it was guarded all the time by the Union Soldiers. Interviewer: The well was? Mrs. Dexter: Yes, and when Father came back from the war, he bought property in that district and built the first house that was built on the old campground and that was on the corner of Lyon �and College Avenue, the northeast corner there is another house, the old house still stands there, there’s another small house on each side of it now and all around the property at that time was larger, a good deal. Interviewer: Which, what’s the address of that house, do you know? Mrs. Dexter: When I, I think it’s five fifteen [505 Lyon is the Foote residence. 515 Lyon was the Dexter residence] Lyon. It’s a big grey house, next to the corner. And they lived there all their lives, and their four children were born there. I was the youngest one. Interviewer: Born in the house? Mrs. Dexter: In the house. Interviewer: Was that a, was the custom of the day for children to be born at home? Rather than… Mrs. Dexter: Oh, yes, yes. Interviewer: Did, was, was there a midwife in attendance or was it a doctor and a… Mrs. Dexter: Doctors. I don’t know, I never remember hearing anyone mention a midwife, I don’t know. Interviewer: When you say your father drove here, how did he, how? Mrs. Dexter: His family drove out from Olcott, New York, Interviewer: What did they drive, a horse and buggy? Mrs. Dexter: Yes, don’t think it was a covered wagon but they drove out in stages from there. Interviewer: Well then, you grew up on Lyon Street. Mrs. Dexter: Yes. When I was young the old UB hospital [United Benevolent Association] Hospital, which is now Blodgett Hospital, that was on the southwest corner of Lyon and College where the little Fountain Street School house is now until they built the new one over in East Grand Rapids. And, many of those old houses were built, the nearest house to that hospital property was Judge [Edwin A.] Burlingame., He lived on the corner of, well it was Lyon Place for awhile, now I believe it’s Goldberg[Goldsboro?] and Lyon Street. He’s quite a prominent judge here. And, Father, at that time was with Nelson & Matter Furniture Company that was down on the Canal and Monroe Street, it was called Canal Street then. And, then he was the, he left there and went to Grand Rapids Chair Company which was owned by the C.C. Comstock family and afterwards my father bought it from the Comstock estate. Interviewer: And maintained the name Grand Rapids Chair Company? �Mrs. Dexter: Yes, it’s still called the Grand Rapids Chair Company. After, let me see, my husband became the manager when my father retired in about nineteen seventeen. And he managed it until his death, no, he’d retired, he’d sold it to Mr. Charles Sligh then after that it was sold, to the Baker Furniture Company and now is in, is owned by a chain company that has a good many furniture factories. I don’t know the name of that, that chain. And then Father built the, when my oldest brother Stuart Foote came home from college he was with Father in the Grand Rapids Chair Company for a while and then they built the, Imperial Furniture Company and then my brother-in law Seal Reynolds, we bought, the family bought the old Kindel Factory and they had the Rey, the Foote-Reynolds Company. They made nothing but beds. Then afterwards, after our brother-in-law’s death it was sold back to the Kindel people. Interviewer: Why did, why did Kindels sell that company? Mrs. Dexter I don’t know. Interviewer: Was that, seems to me I remember hearing some, point that he, you know was very successful and then he decided that he was going to retire at a very early age and sold everything. Mrs. Dexter: Yes. Interviewer: And then after… Mrs. Dexter: That is so. Interviewer: …After a few years of retirement he couldn’t stand it so he bought it, bought it… Mrs. Dexter: Yes. Interviewer: ….Bought the company back. Mrs. Dexter: Yes. That’s true. Then another old building that I remember so well was the Methodist Church. That was at the corner, the where the Keeler building is today, the southeast corner of Division and Fountain Street. That was there for many years. Interviewer: What kind of church was it? Mrs. Dexter: Methodist Interviewer: What was the construction of it? Mrs. Dexter: Big red brick building, big red brick building. And then my sister, Ida Foote and Seal Reynolds were married there in nineteen hundred and four, I guess it was. It was so amusing it took so long to empty the church that the city fathers and fire department made ‘em put in two new exits to the church. Interviewer: What was it like growing up on Lyon Street? What was the neighborhood like? �Mrs. Dexter: Wonderful, everybody owned their own houses and we always, oh we had so many friends around it was, and we had big playgrounds and as we went to the, the old school that we went to as a grade school was on Fountain Street where Central High is today and then we went to High School down at Junior college (doorbell in background) so that we’ve seen the changes a great deal. And one thing maybe somebody might have told you, when we were youngsters and growing up here, mail boxes were on the all the street cars. Interviewer: I have heard about that. Mrs. Dexter: On the front and back. And you could stop a street car anywhere and mail your letters. They always said that it was a great advantage because they never could have a street car strike. Interviewer: (doorbell in background) Is that your front door? Mrs. Dexter: Can I shut that off, can you shut that off? [pause] Interviewer: Sure, yes. Do you think, what, what do you think of the Heritage Hill Association, and the work they are doing? Mrs. Dexter: Well, I think that it’s, it’s wonderful to have people interested and I think the different form of, architecture, architecture should be preserved because I think, I think anything in the early history of this city is important to the children growing up here. I think their background should mean something to them. But I think it’s maybe they, that’s their idea that they are just saving different styles of architecture. But there’s certainly a number of these homes are not the early homes in Grand Rapids. And I think it’s unfortunate, of course it’s late, there’re some of the homes that have gone that should have been preserved if they were going to do this kind of thing. And, that it is unfortunate, but, I don’t know how they can avoid it. If they want to collect samples of architecture, but I started to say it was unfortunate that people that own the property aren’t being allowed to remodel it if necessary because I think that’s going to be a hardship for some people. [Recording spotty at 10:32 through the end.] Interviewer: Yes, well they allow to remodel…. Mrs. Dexter: Do they? Interviewer: Yes, but what they’ve, what they’re, the reason why they put that rule into effect was that they, it’s not that they can’t remodel their homes but that when they remodel, if they remodel the exterior, they want them to, to maintain the, the style of the home instead of like a lot of these homes, they put up false facades on ‘em and one thing or another and you know they change the architecture on them. �Mrs. Dexter: Oh. Interviewer: So that the value of the home is destroyed, and they don’t want that done. Mrs. Dexter: Well that’s true. Interviewer: So, that’s why they put that rule into effect. I think that’s the reason why. But we were talking about your neighborhood and the number of children and that were, were the families very close? Mrs. Dexter: Well, just as it is today, there’s always some in the neighborhood that become good friends and some that are not. I think they weren’t anywhere near the number of (?) that there are now. People lived for long periods of time in the same neighborhood. Everyone owned their own homes and they were cared for in those days we had no slum districts. No inner-city problems. But that is bound to come with growth of a city. The changes that take place, people, large numbers coming in from different locations. Interviewer: How big was the city when you were a child? Do you know? Mrs. Dexter: I know we came out, out to the lake from, from Eastern Avenue on a little dummy line. Interviewer: Was that about where the country began? Mrs. Dexter: Yes, it was, it was, there was not much beyond that Interviewer: What was the country like out, out in East Grand Rapids at that time? Somebody was telling me that there was that it was kind of swampy or something around Wealthy and Lake Drive area, remember that? Mrs. Dexter: No, I don’t remember, it was all country because and of course we used to, what, later when the automobile came and we took long drives in the afternoon, why there was still beautiful country to drive in. But of course when I was very young, we didn’t do anything on Sunday. We didn’t even ride our bicycles on Sunday. It was a family day and the, we always went to church and had the afternoon at home. But as I say we all had large playgrounds and many of our friends some of my best friends, they are those that I went to school with from Kindergarten on. And that was the kind of city Grand Rapids was. And now there was, there was never rivalry you might call it, between the different manufacturers. The head of the, the heads of the factories were all intimate friends and remained always. We had I think it was at one time, fifty four large furniture factories here and, they, oh they always had beautiful flower gardens around them and there was always a prize given every year for the loveliest gardens. And there was a personal touch to the life of the city that you don’t have now. Which can’t be helped as a city grows. That’s bound to come. �Interviewer: Could you expand a little on that, on that, what the personal touch, what, can you give me some examples of that, how the city, why or I mean how the feeling of that was. Mrs. Dexter: Which was just a natural outgrowth. You see they were now they, for instance the two Mr. David Browns, they were no relation, but they were the owners and, of the Century Furniture Company and they, there was the finest furniture manufactures at the Century Company than any factories in the United States have ever been. But they had no sons and that proved true in many cases. There no sons to carry on the businesses. Now while my father, his, son was with him for a long time but then as I say built the Imperial, well he had no sons that were interested in carrying that on. So we sold it. And that was the case in many of the factories that after the original leaders died, the furniture, the factories were liquidated and sold to outside corporations. Now Mr. Robert Irwin of the Irwin Furniture Company had no sons to carry on, it was very pathetic because if they had had sons that were more were interested and could, capable of carrying on the business, I think the industry would have stayed intact longer. Interviewer: You think that it still would be in existence? Mrs. Dexter: Well it still is in existence with factories that we have, but not in the proportion that it was. We had, the, of course they had their big showrooms and their big sales in January and July. And several, well fifteen hundred to two thousand men came every season to buy furniture. They came from all over the United States and from even abroad. Then for years we also had a semi-showing in the spring and fall. Well, that finally was given up but those big showings were, oh, it was a friendly spirit always. Now the Grand Rapids Chair Company was the first ones that started serving dinners at their factory during the furniture season. The Chair Company was out so far from downtown that, if the men went out on the street car or had a hack to drive out, they would get nicely started and the noon-hour would come and so many times they’d go back down to the Pantlind Hotel and wouldn’t come back in the afternoon and my father said they’d have to meet that situation. So they started in serving sandwiches and coffee and bought some pies. Well eventually it developed into a much larger thing. They had a cook and screened off part of the showroom to make the luncheons, well one day the cook failed to appear and my father telephoned for me to come immediately and serve the luncheon. So I did. I went out and he gave me a boy from the factory to tend to my errands and run across to the grocery store across the street and it then developed more and more into a meal, finally my father built a great big dining room and kitchen on to the factory for me and I managed that, caterers and waitress as long as we owned the factory and that started the custom of the various factories serving meals, luncheons at noon. And I guess some of ‘em still do. But they knew it had been the custom that was started by Mr. Foote at the Chair Company. And he always had a great big New Year’s Dinner. That opened the furniture season and so out of consideration for him and their affection for him, they, none of the other factories ever served New Year’s dinner. They all went to the Chair Company. And it was quite an event. And, but then… recalls many memories. �Interviewer: What were some of the other memories about the furniture business and the furniture factory and so on? Mrs. Dexter: Well, there was always this feeling of cordiality, the manufacturers never hesitated to invite, the, their shows were always open to each other. They always went. There never was any question of hesitancy that they might copy their designs. There never was that feeling. It was always so friendly. And now that doesn’t exist. It’s almost impossible I believe, to go get into a factory to see a furniture design, a showing. Interviewer: Yes, was that a pretty exciting time, when the buyers would come to town for the shows? Mrs. Dexter: It was just thrilling. It was just as exciting as it could be. They had, the Furniture Manufacturers Association had beautiful rooms, dining rooms and lounges and things in the Pantlind Hotel. They used to have beautiful dinners there. They always held their meetings there. But they used to have beautiful dinners there for the outside, the visiting buyers. And they, they did a great deal to entertain the buyers when they came. Interviewer: How would the, what, how would entertaining go, how would they entertain ‘em? Mrs. Dexter: Well. Many of them became personal friends. And then if they were, if these buyers were friends of yours, why, you entertained them in your homes. As well as the dinners that they gave down at the manufacturers’ club dinner, so that, I don’t know… Interviewer: What form would the entertaining at home take in those days? Mrs. Dexter: Just a personal dinner party. Interviewer: Did it differ at all from today, the way people entertain today? Mrs. Dexter: Well, it wasn’t the same thing at all. Interviewer: How was it different? Mrs. Dexter: Well, you had a beautiful dinner party in your own home but you don’t have the help to do it now days. Now unfortunately most of us have to do our entertaining at the club, ‘because you just can’t get help. And it isn’t half as nice. Interviewer: Where, where did the help come from that was in the homes? Mrs. Dexter: Well, it, of course in those days we all had help that lived in. Or you there were a great many cateresses that would go, come to your home to get the dinners. Bring, have cateresses and waitresses that we had for years and years and years. Now at the Chair Company I always, for many years would have the same cook and the same waitresses. One of ‘em is, couple of ‘em in fact are still alive that used to serve. �Interviewer: What, what were their names? Mrs. Dexter: I don’t know. Interviewer: Ok. There’s something I wanted to ask you about those dinner parties. Mrs. Dexter: Well, it a, most everyone could entertain at. Twelve at their table and sometimes if they were having more they would have, they’d have sit down tables, in those days we didn’t have buffet meals. But you would have smaller tables. But the majority of them were a dinner of twelve. And they were lovely. Interviewer: Who was the most spectacular entertainer in town? Mrs. Dexter: Oh, I wouldn’t know. Interviewer: What was the most spectacular dinner party that you ever went to? Mrs. Dexter: Oh, I don’t remember that. There was so many that were really charming that it’s hard to say. Mr. Joe Griswold, who was the head of the Griswold Furniture Company, his son Joseph Griswold is still in the furniture business here. Their factory was sold so Mr. Joe Griswold travels for other factories. But, Mr. and Mrs. [Joseph G.] Griswold lived on Fountain across from Central High School and they did a great deal of beautiful entertaining and Mr. Robert Irwin did too. He had a big home on, on Fulton Street and there were a good many. Interviewer: Did the, was the society the people that had the most association with each other, was it, set up, like the furniture people, did the furniture people hang with each other mostly? Mrs. Dexter: Well, they were quite a large group of the furniture manufacturers that were very good friends but I, I would think you would say there were two or three groups, with the large number of manufacturer that we had here in Grand Rapids. Interviewer: OK, Mrs. Dexter: And then of course there were other very delightful social groups. Interviewer: Like, like what? Mrs. Dexter: Oh, well. Mr. and Mrs. M.R. Bissell in those days had a beautiful home life with their family and their friends and then there was the [S. L.] Withey family and the [Charles H.] Bender family, and so many of them. Interviewer: How does, how does living today, what, what’s the biggest difference, in living today compared to living then? �Mrs. Dexter: The speed that one, everyone, travels at now days seems to me. We lived a slower life in those days, you could get your friends together more quickly and saw more of them I think; there was more leisure. Interviewer: Yes, that’s interesting. They talk about the amount of leisure time that people have today. That it’s always increasing and so on. Mrs. Dexter: I think they, I think they have more leisure hours if they want to plan them leisurely, but now where they have time from their business they’re always rushing to go fishing and always rushing to play golf or something of that sort so that when you come right down to it, you don’t have the peaceful hours that you used to have. And then another thing, people travel a great deal more now than they used to. Everyone’s just departing for long trip of just getting home from one and in those they didn’t travel nearly so much. There weren’t the facilities, we didn’t have the airplanes. So we stayed home and enjoyed your friends, had more time to be with them. One interesting thing I remember about furniture business, it was so long ago but, it was after we started to have airplanes, why my husband was the first one that shipped furniture by airplane from Grand Rapids, I had the picture somewhere out the old airport out there loading furniture, crated furniture on to the plane to ship…by airplane. Interviewer: When was, when did that, occur? Mrs. Dexter: (I’m) trying to think, I don’t know. Forty years ago. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Dexter: Must have been. Interviewer: Well, that’s the kind of thing that could be looked up. Mrs. Dexter: Yes. Interviewer: Pretty easily. Mrs. Dexter: Yes, ‘because there were pictures, they had ‘em in the papers, that, so there may be records of them. But Fulton Street was a beautiful street in those days. There were so many trees of course, and the houses all the way up the hill were lovely homes. They’re gone, so many of them now. And Mr. [Robert] Irwin lived there then across from them was, they, Mr. [Morris] Cassard’s house and, all the way down. The house that’s now the Women’s City Club and the old Pike home which was the Art Gallery and I was president of the Art Gallery when we converted that building and built on the additions…. Interviewer: When was that? Mrs. Dexter: Oh, the before we built that building, we opened it our art gallery, had rooms on the upper, where Dean Witter used to be at two Monroe, right across from the park were, our rooms �were upstairs there. And then the, Mrs. M. J. Clark bought the old Pike home and we raised similar amount of money to convert it and built the Art Gallery and it’s been there of course ever since. Interviewer: I’m going to turn this tape over; I think it’s almost out. Mrs. Dexter: I think you’ve got enough. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/49bd2f13efa8484894c145e65c59c413.mp3 5ee57cfc98a9f10ca93bce6af80bc88e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_32Dexter Title A name given to the resource Dexter, Emma Foote Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dexter, Emma Foote Description An account of the resource Emma Howe Foote was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on February 3, 1885, the daughter of Elijah Hedding Foote and Frances Amelia Howe. She lived at the corner of Lyon and College, and attended Junior College. Emma was married to Clarence S. Dexter, prominent Grand Rapids furniture manufacturer and financier in Grand Rapids on January 16, 1908. She was the president of Art Gallery on Fulton (Old Pike's home) and a regent of the Michigan Daughters of the American Revolution. She died January 5, 1983 in Grand Rapids and was interred at Graceland Mausoleum. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/429a098549d9ceb5af40d5923b0c1973.pdf f9a1060d2a0ed993b73c9f216483164f PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mr. and Mrs. Francis T. Russell Interviewed on October 4, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape # 30, 31 (1:21:28) Biographical Information Francis Thayer Russell was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on 21 June 1892, the son of Huntley Russell and Clara E. Comstock. Huntley Russell was born on 1 September 1858 at New Britain, Connecticut and died in Grand Rapids on 9 December 1928. Huntley was buried in Fulton Street Cemetery. Clara Eglatine Comstock was born in Grand Rapids in April 1866, the daughter of Charles C. Comstock and Cornelia Guild. She died on 18 June 1935 and was buried in Fulton Street Cemetery. Huntley and Clara were married in Grand Rapids on the 1st of September, 1884. Mrs. Russell was born Lucille I. Hopson on 25 May 1894 in Grand Rapids, the daughter of William C. Hopson and Frankie M. Hydorn. Lucille died on 19 October 1973 and was buried in Woodlawn Cemetery in Grand Rapids. Her parents were married in Grand Rapids on 19 September 1889. William died in Grand Rapids on 9 March 1948 at the age of 91 and Frankie passed away in Grand Rapids on 18 November 1958 at the age of 96. ___________ Interviewer: This interview with Mr. and Mrs. Francis T. Russell was recorded October fourth, nineteen seventy-one. Ok. Go ahead; what were you going to say? Mr. Russell: I was going to start to remember, to begin with, give my location at birth at recorded in North Park Avenue and Terrace Walk, which, of course now Terrace Walk is eliminated but North Park Avenue is still up there. The house which I was born in was torn down and, turned into stores. But this is a rather unique location in that it was just across the street from the Amusement Pavilion that my grandfather had built in the eighties sometime, along the river bank for the amusement of people that might drive out from downtown, from the heart of Grand Rapids or else come out on the, this dummy line that in the early days or the streetcar later on. But the Pavilion was provided with quite a fleet of row-boats that could be rented and rowed up and down the river and in the early days he had this side wheeler steamer that took a group up to as far as the Plainfield Farm which was Grand Island. At present Grand Island’s about in front of the Blythefield Club and this Farm was up in that general locality of the Blythefield Club. But the, this Pavilion was a fairly good size and had a very large dance hall, had three storied, for one of the attractions, there was a switch-back that ran from the Pavilion itself to another building �2 perhaps oh, 150 yards away. And you’d get in this car and ride along as you would in a figure eight or a jack rabbit or something like that over to this building and then you switched back and then come back to the Pavilion again. Which was supposed to be quite thrilling at that time, I think it was because it had some pretty good dips in it, although they weren’t loop-the-loops or anything like that, but just a thrilling affair for grown-ups and youngsters at that time. But later on, after this switch-back was given up, several years later the Grand Rapids Boat and Canoe Club was established in the building just south of the Pavilion; which used to house the sidewheeler, the steamer that ran up and down the river. And the steamer went over great, so the Grand Rapids Boat and Canoe Club was formed and was very active in canoeing and shell racing and used to take some their best crew members out to Peoria and one place or another where they’d have some racing contests in the shells. Afterwards, the Boat and Canoe Club built north of this location. North of the bridge and where the present, let’s see, I think the American Legion is in there now, isn’t it. They used to be the last…… Interviewer: Who was? Who was your grandfather? Mr. Russell: C.C. Comstock and he came in eighteen fifty-three, moving out from New Hampshire. His father had been a farmer and sort of a half hearted carpenter, but he was never a very productive along the farming lines and as I gathered, the soil was not too productive, in that locality in which helped to encourage my grandfather at an early age to strike out west, which he did and looked this territory over, some almost the age of between eighteen and twenty and eventually moved out here and established himself in the lumbering business. At that time there was very little rail communication here. He originally arrived by a steamer through Chicago, then through Grand Haven and up the river. And then in his memoirs was one of the events coming up the river he tells about on the boat, when it blew up, the boiler blew up at Grandville and he was blown into the water. The helmsman was killed, but the other passengers seemed to survive alright and get ashore and he walked from there up to just south of the Soldier’s Home where he lived at that time. He had built out in the country there at rather an early age, or not an early age, early in his lifetime and his home was on Boltwood Drive, which was built in eighteen ninety, at that time. But this isn’t that I referred to when he was blown off the steamer he was residing on Ottawa Street. That was so it wasn’t quite the walk as it might have been if he’d been in the later house. He was interested in lumbering and later on building factory for the manufacture of pails and tubs on the corner of Newberry, now Sixth Street and Monroe; used to be Canal Street at that time. And that building is still standing on the northeast corner and his old office building right across the street on the northwest corner is still standing at this time. He was at one time, Comstock, Nelson and Matter in the manufacture of furniture and there was a great deal of difficulty in transporting at that time and getting the finished product out into the territories to be saleable. And it was eventually developed that he built some of his own railcars, his own freight cars, to transport the furniture out of town. That was later on of course when the GR & I, and some other roads developed into Grand Rapids. �3 Interviewer: He built his own freight cars, for what reason weren’t the railroads? Mr. Russell: Well, the railroads weren’t equipped to apparently meet the requirements that he thought should be necessary to take care of the product. And I don’t think that developed very widely but I can gather in his memoirs that there probably weren’t more than three or four cars that were built for that purpose. But his first interest in transportation apparently on his own hook was building a dummy line from Sweet Street up to North Park, where he had the entertainment enterprise. And this dummy ran fairly regular intervals between North Park and Sweet Street, which was the limit of the streetcar line at that time- went as far as Sweet and then back downtown. Then at that point they’d transfer to the dummy further north. And the later on as time developed, the dummy line was absorbed by the streetcar, Grand Rapids Street Railway, and electric cars were run on out there. But … Interviewer: How, how was his street car run? Did he run on electricity, too? Mr. Russell: Oh no, no this was before that, this was a steam dummy. It would carry a little tender behind it and a passenger car and in the summer, the open passenger car, in the winter it was closed. I think they had about, five cars was total equipment. But it afforded transportation for a number of years and by getting the people out to his amusement resort and bathing beach, which was also established out there on the west side of the river and they’d row across from the Pavilion, go over there and go in swimming where there was a sand bar and a sand beach and eventually that wore itself out. The swimming feature was given up and then it turned into just farmland over there…. Interviewer: The river was pretty clean then in those days for swimmers? Mr. Russell: Well yes, it was. I was always taught at that time that the river purified itself every ten miles. That, whatever happened to it, after flowing over the gravel and sand beds that it would be purified after ten miles of operation., We never thought of pollution at that time, nothing of that sort. You couldn’t say it was as clear as Lake Michigan, but it was a much clearer than we’ve been used to seeing it lately. I remember that the, the row boats, in front of the Pavilion were attached to a series of booms that were floating in the river and these booms could of course could, rise and fall with the variation of the river. And there was a tendency I recall a moss gathering on the booms so it showed some pollution at that time. But, you’d get out of those booms and then of course you couldn’t get too many of them [people] or they’d sink. You’d have to go down, just a few at a time to get in the rowboats and then, then row wherever you wanted to. Interviewer: Did you ever go out to the amusement park, when you were a child Mrs. Russell? Mr. Russell: North Park Pavilion? �4 Mrs. Russell: I think I was out there to Sunday School Picnics. I think we used to have Sunday School Picnics…I don’t remember quite so much. Well I remember all about its being there but I’m afraid I didn’t play around there as much as you did. Interviewer: Where did you grow up? Mrs. Russell: Well, I was born on North College Avenue about halfway between Leonard and what’s now Michigan Street, was then called Bridge. And it was a plat that my father had bought up there, a large piece of land; and our house was the only house on it. He built this house, establishing the plat. And we used to walk a good distance of a half mile up Bridge Street to school and think nothing of it. In those days, whether it (would) be summer or winter we’d go home for lunch and go back again. But of course that’s unheard of now. And it occurs to me that we used to go bobsledding right down those College Avenue hills. Either way, because we lived right just halfway between. Then a little later on ‘course there were lots of houses built, largely due to my father’s development. That whole section filled in, so we had neighbors, at that time. I lived there until I was probably twelve or thirteen years old and then we moved down on Lyon Street in one of these houses that are now being shown on the Heritage Hill tour, which intrigued me. I went in to see it Saturday. I hadn’t seen it since about the year, what did I figure that out? I think it was probably about nineteen eighteen. And I’ve never been in the house since we left it. It was very interesting to see five apartments in it. I couldn’t quite picture that because they hadn’t had that many people living there. Interviewer: Whereabouts on Lyon is that house? Mr. Russell: Four-forty. Mrs. Russell: Near College Avenue. It’s a block between College and Prospect. It’s directly back of Central High School. We, we owned the property, straight through from Lyon Street to the Central High School line. We had a big tennis court back of the house that about half the town used to make use of because there weren’t too many tennis courts then; and they’d all come and warm up for the city tournaments, the city tennis tournaments. And so we, we got a lot of circulation of people there while we lived there. And then at that time I attended the Central Grammar School, which was down, at the corner of Barclay and Lyon Street. And of course that’s since been torn down. It was a great big square building and very high on quite a hill that’s since been leveled down, considerably. Then of course the next step was to go to the old high school next door and then I eventually graduated my last year nine twelve I graduated from Central High School. And then from that residence, my father built down on Madison Avenue. I spent the rest of my life with them, I spent down there. I’ve always been around the parts here. Interviewer: Where, whereabouts on Madison was that? �5 Mrs. Russell: At the corner of Logan and it isn’t exactly the corner though, one house south of the corner of Logan on the east side of the street. Right next to, well it used to be Henry Heald’s house, a very old, old house, which was taken down, wasn’t it or is it still there? Mr. Russell: Yes, it‘s turned in to a school. Mrs. Russell: School now. Yes, it, it had quite a historical old house next to it. But, again my father bought a piece of land out there and then sold off the lots to the various people that built between our home and Logan and Morris Avenue and Madison. So we had a neighborhood that developed all at one time practically and ….. Interviewer: What was your father’s name? Mrs. Russell: William C. Hopson. People called it Hopkins or Hobson, it isn’t, it’s none of those, it’s H-O-P-S-O-N. I hate to have it called otherwise. He came here, when did I tell you he came here? Eighteen, hold that down here, I ought to, I hate to be inaccurate. (He) came to Grand Rapids in the spring of 1870. Now that’s right, that’s when he came, he came here from Ypsilanti; but he was born in Toledo, Ohio. And he came here with a widowed mother and he was of tender age of about twelve years old when he came here and had a very heavy degree of dependency on her part. So that, he used to go to night school and tried to pick up his education and I think he went to high school until he was seventeen and I doubt he ever graduated. I don’t think so. But he went heavily to night school. And then at that time he joined a metalworking firm called Shriver-Weatherly. And in the course and learned the trade... he learned the metal trade and worked hard at it I’m sure, because he was pretty vigorous at applying himself. Then his spare time on holidays and nights he used to run a popcorn stand down on the corner of Monroe and Lyon right beside of the Mays, where Mays is now. And he really could tell some tall tales about how much money he’d make on July Fourth, and how far he could make the lemonade go. Interviewer: Was that a pretty big day in Grand Rapids, July Fourth? Mrs. Russell: Evidently it was because apparently they had a parade. I think they always had a parade that got everybody downtown. Then if he could get them downtown then he could catch them for a popcorn ball or a glass of lemonade. I’m sure he said that he didn’t make lemonade out of a single lemon. I think he bought something called citric acid and turned it out of that, and consequently it was profitable. But he had kind of a struggle getting along. And he was sort of proud of some of his success. He helped put the roof on, I think the post office, ahead of the old post office. I don’t think this one was the one that was. Mr. Russell: Oh, no it was…. �6 Mrs. Russell: …the one that preceded this one. But he used to like to talk about having helped put the roof on the one, not the one, two ahead of our modern one; the one that preceded the court building now at the corner of Lyon and Ottawa. Is that? Yes, Ionia and Lyon. And it was the building ahead of that one I’m sure that he put the roof on. And or helped and he had some rugged occupations all right. Of course he went in business after he worked for ShriverWeatherly; he went in business for himself. And he got a man to back him with money, some money, and then after a period he was able to buy the man out and go out on his own. And he continued until it became W.C. Hopson and Company which is still operating under the name Hopson-Bennett now. And…. Mr. Russell: On Grandville Avenue, the building was built in nineteen-ten, that’s it was… Mrs. Russell: Nineteen-ten. He built the building and …. Mrs. Russell: He was a lover of automobiles and, I think the first time he ever saw an automobile for sale was out at the, what do you call that? Mr. Russell: West Michigan Fair… Mrs. Russell: West Michigan Park, West Michigan Fair. Is that what they called it? West Michigan, wasn’t there a park in there? Mr. Russell: No. it was at Comstock Park. Mrs. Russell: Out at Comstock Park. And they had a demonstrator of Oldsmobile, with a little, I think a single lunger. I’m sure it was because it went by jerks and, it had a removable rear. When we rode in it on Sunday why it had two seats, but all during the week when he was going back and forth to work in it he had just a platform and slide the second seat off and put this platform on. And the car wasn’t very dependable because they were the early days and the chain kept breaking, no matter what they did to it; nobody really knew how to repair it. And this chain would keep breaking so whenever we went for a ride on Sunday, the man who was the teamster down at the factory and lived fairly near us, took the horses, they had a team of horses there, had to stay home so he could be sure to come out and tow us in. So we spent, this poor man never got a Sunday out when we were out riding. My father finally said well I’m going to drive that car to Lansing because I’m going to take it right back to the factory. Everything in the world’s happened to it, and Adams and Hart was the automobile agency here. They worked over it and they hadn’t done very well by it so he got this teamster to say he’d go along with him and it took him four days to make Lansing, partly due to the fact that the roads were so muddy. There weren’t any paved roads at all. It was just all dirt roads. And they’d get stuck and then something would break and they’d get that put together and fixed up and then they’d go a little further. But they made Lansing. I don’t know whether he ever brought it back or not but he got to Lansing. I always thought it was so amusing to be towed in, and I was so embarrassing to have had horses �7 be pulling you when you had this good-looking car; and not very many cars in Grand Rapids. There were very few. Then later on he got a fancy, for just a notional fancy, he thought the Franklin car was the car. It couldn’t freeze and it was, oh it was just the car to have. So he stuck to that pretty consistently. Then he got a notion that my mother might drive an electric car. She wasn’t very brave about getting behind a wheel and so he got a Detroit Electric and, he jokingly said to my mother, “Now Mr. Steinman is our city assessor and he lives just a block from us here. Don’t drive around that way or he’ll raise our, what do you call it? Mr. Russell: Personal property assessment. Mrs. Russell: Yes, personal property tax. And so my mother went out with the man demonstrating it, who was trying to teach her to drive it and she tried to turn the corner from Fountain to College and she ran right up on Mr. Steinman’s lawn and, and the car stopped right in his yard, which we always thought was very humorous. Mr. Russell: It was a good start? Mrs. Russell: You know, at that time I lived there on Lyon Street, Blodgett Hospital was on the corner of College and Lyon. Only of course it was UBA Hospital before they changed the name. But that presented quite a different picture with that hospital on the corner. Less than a block away from us, it was. And of course that is right where Fountain Street School is now. That’s the location where UBA was. Mr. Russell: Fountain Street School? Mrs. Russell: Yes. Mr. Russell: UBA was United Benevolent Association. Did you ever hear of that? Interviewer: No. Mr. Russell: That was the hospital organization. Mrs. Russell: It preceded; it’s the same hospital except that the Blodgetts put a put a great deal of money into this hospital and in recognition they changed the name of it. I think they still, their annual meetings refer to it as United Benevolent Association. I think the name has... Mr. Russell: Oh, is that? Mrs. Russell: ….been fluctuated a little. I’m not sure of that, but I think so. Interviewer: What was the United Benevolent Association? Mr. Russell: I don’t know what denomination it was, do you? �8 Interviewer: Perhaps it had some religious affiliation then? Mr. Russell: Yes, it Mrs. Russell: I don’t think so. I don’t think it is. No, I think it was more like, something instead of the [Community] Chest; a group of private, contributors who united to build the hospital. I don’t recall there was ever any religious….. Mr. Russell: Well, now wasn’t Butterworth in operation at that time, too? Mrs. Russell: No. Mr. Russell: That was later on? Mrs. Russell: I don’t think so. I think, I think UBA was the first one. I think. I hope they don’t rely on my accuracy ‘cause I could be wrong and I could be corrected. I just remember what it looks like. I’m sure it was there, when I was there. Interviewer: Did your mother ever, did your father ever buy that electric car? Did you…..? Mrs. Russell: Yes, we had about three of them. We had one right after the other. They were very intriguing to operate because, in fact they created an awful problem for me to learn to drive a gas car when I got married. I had to drive a gar car. His idea was it would keep me out of the gas car, which he had, and the electric would be so much safer. And so I didn’t bother to learn to drive his car at all. So when I got married all Fran had was a gas car. It presented a great problem because an electric, all you did when you got in a tight place was pull everything off. Well, that doesn’t work very well with a gas car. So that every time I’d get any place that was difficult, I’d stall. The system was very interesting. It has two levers and that’s the two levers and the brakes is all there is to the whole car really. You had five speeds and of course they weren’t exactly racing speeds but you could, you’d operate with your right hand you did the steering (changing side of reel) that’s just what it was like. Mr. Russell: there was…. Mrs. Russell: And very clean cars. That was the nice part about it, there was no grease or oil or anything like that about it. The car always, then of course you had to have it charged. We had a charging arrangement in our garage and it would only go about, oh I think they said it would go eighty miles on a charge. It never would. Fifty miles was about all they’d go on a good full charge. So usually when you brought the car in, you put it right on the charge. And tried to keep it pepped up so that you could use it for where you wanted to go. Fortunately the first one we had, we lived on Lyon Street and we didn’t have a charger in the garage then. The garage being a barn, we didn’t have a garage at all; it was an old barn out in back of the house. And our source of electricity was down on Bond Avenue, that isn’t even there anymore, is it? �9 Mr. Russell: No. Mrs. Russell: Bond isn’t even….. Mr. Russell: It was the first block east of Monroe but it isn’t… Mrs. Russell: No, it’d be right in between the gas company and the Old Kent Bank, wouldn’t it? Mr. Russell: Yes Mrs. Russell: Isn’t that about where it… Mr. Russell: It was the first block east… Mrs. Russell: There was a very good garage there. The best garage in the town and they were rather, well they were kind of half ahead of their time, don’t you think they were? Mr. Russell: Well, C.J. Bronson’s Mrs. Russell: Bronson’s garage, yes, so that when we’d get out of juice, we could start at the top of Lyon Street hill and make the garage on Bond Avenue very nicely. Just slide into it. Deader than a doornail, because when an electric car is dead it’s awful dead. It doesn’t do a thing. Interviewer: Why did he think that electric cars were safer than gasoline cars? Mrs. Russell: They didn’t go so fast. They were slow, they were slow cars. Mr. Russell: The highest speed would be thirty, perhaps thirty five, it wasn’t…. Mrs. Russell: Well, then I think they thought they were safer because they had fewer adjustments; you didn’t have a clutch, you didn’t have to do anything about a clutch, you know. It didn’t have to mesh or anything of that kind. You could be awful dumb and drive an electric, and I don’t know, my father thought it was perfectly alright for me to drive that but he wouldn’t listen to me driving a gas car. I don’t know quite what all that reasoning was, do you? Mr. Russell: Well, when you’re limited to fifty mile radius you know, you can’t get very far away from home, because you’d have to be sure to get back. Mrs. Russell: I wasn’t that far away. I wasn’t trying to make distance. Mr. Russell: They, they never got up any speed unless you were on the right side of a hill, then you could do it, so like coming down Lyon Street or Bridge Street. But, then they’re very stable, they’d climb a hill in great shape…. Mrs. Russell: They’d go through anything. �10 Mr. Russell: If they were properly charged up. Mrs. Russell: They’d just, the application, electricity was almost more powerful then gas, the gas might jump you or something, but electric power just really, in fact I backed right straight through this garage door once without raising it, so I know what it can do. Interviewer: Do you remember the first gas station in Grand Rapids? Mr. Russell: Oh, no. Mrs. Russell: Let me see if I can think of an early one. Mr. Russell: I think that would be…. Mrs. Russell: Where’d you get gas? Mr. Russell: Bronson’s garage was where we….. Mrs. Russell: Bronson’s the first, there on Bond Avenue. I’ll bet that was as early, did we go way there for gas? Did you get gas from there? Mr. Russell: Well at our house, we had a fifty gallon tank and the tank, the gasoline tank wagon would drive up there and fill it up, periodically and then we’d have to pump out of that ourselves and fill our tank through a chamois strainer to be sure that no dirt or water or anything else got into the tank. It was very important to be sure that the gas was pure getting in there. It didn’t get through any filter, pump or anything of that sort as it does now. It came right off the tank wagon right into our tank and then we had to transport it in five gallon lots into our automobile tank. And of course in those days the tank didn’t hold more than about ten gallons anyways so. Our experience was the first Model-T Ford, ours was number seven ninety-nine of the Model-T. And, we had that, let’s see, we bought that in nineteen eleven and in about three months, it was so redesigned that we had to run ours back to the factory and have it rebuilt. They changed the details of it from a bent bearing to roller bearing from a pump driven circulation for cooling the motor to a thermo siphon and several refinements so that we sort of felt as if we’d helped them develop the Ford in an experimental way in having such an early number. And that car basically was quite reasonable at as I recall about six hundred dollars, but then you had to have the windshield added and the speedometer and the gas headlights and the gas tank as the acetylene tank, this was before electric headlights. And we had all these details added up you’re well over a thousand dollars. Interviewer: Oh, really? �11 Mr. Russell: …to get the thing operating. But they’d sell the thing with kerosene lamps if you wanted but that didn’t shine very far up the road. You really had to have acetylene gas headlights to give you the real light. Mrs. Russell: Didn’t you have acetylene gas in your house? We did. Mr. Russell: Yes, before electricity was…. Mrs. Russell: Before they had electric…. Mr. Russell: Yes, we had…. Mrs. Russell: ….make it out of carbide, didn’t they? Put in big tanks. Mr. Russell: Yes. Mrs. Russell: It had something, looked like a furnace, did it? Mr. Russell: Sort of, Yes and then, there were two systems…. Mrs. Russell: I can remember carrying buckets of carbide. Mr. Russell: The calcium carbide would be, in one system would be dropped into the water and then it forms acetylene gas and the tank would fill up. Then the other system was dropping water on a sort of container of calcium carbide and you’d raised acetylene gas by that method. The one method was you drop the carbide into the water and the other method was to drop water on the carbide. Mrs. Russell: What’s preferable? Why, why the difference? Mr. Russell: Well, just two different processes. I don’t know, we thought that the best one was the Davis process that we used at our house. Although at your house you had the Owens. Mrs. Russell: I think we did. Mr. Russell: Which was the, it is a…. Mrs. Russell: Do I remember seeing a tank, when it was full rise? Mr. Russell: Yes, in either case, when the water came in contact with the carbide, it would form acetylene gas and then the tank would rise and fill up and shut off the operation, so it wouldn’t go too far. Then as you used the gas, the tank would recede and so the mechanism would start the process again, dropping more carbide into the tank; or dropping more water on the carbide. Interviewer: Where, where was the tank located? �12 Mr. Russell: In the basement. Mrs. Russell: In the basement, yes. Interviewer: Was it in a…..? Mrs. Russell: Looked a little like a furnace in that it was a galvanized iron cylinder sort of, wasn’t it? Mr. Russell: That’s right. Interviewer: I see, it had a support…around it… Mrs. Russell: And it had a cylinder within a cylinder sort of, isn’t that right? Mr. Russell: That’s right. Mrs. Russell: And this one that would rise was the inner cylinder, you see, they’d seed this stuff into the bottom, didn’t they? Mr. Russell: Yes. Mrs. Russell: And then as it formed the gas it would shove this inner cylinder up and I suppose create the pressure that’d carry light around your house and was good light. Don’t you think it was? Mr. Russell: Oh yes, it was very, very nice… Mrs. Russell: Very steady, it was a very steady light. Mr. Russell: Bright light, this was in case you weren’t anywheres near the natural gas main, oh I mean the city gas company. Where we were out there, we’re a long ways away from service. Mrs. Russell: Now we weren’t very far. Why would we have had a ….. Mr. Russell: Well up on the hill, you’d be quite a ways from the central supply which was down on Market and Wealthy, you know. Mrs. Russell: They used to make that out of coal, didn’t they? Mr. Russell: Yes Mrs. Russell: Before the natural gas that they had. Mr. Russell: Yes �13 Interviewer: Do you, do you remember where the first parking lot was in Grand Rapids? Do you remember a parking lot opening? Mr. Russell: No, no I can’t, I can’t recall that ….. Mrs. Russell: You don’t mean a public one, just any one open to the public but not a city run? Interviewer: Correct. Mrs. Russell: Livingston Hotel…? Mr. Russell: Parking lot? Mrs. Russell: I thought that, when after that fire, wasn’t there one in which you drove in on the tile floor. Do you suppose, I’m not real sure that’s right, but you know they had, what kind of a room would you call it? Mr. Russell: Foyer for a wagon. Mrs. Russell: No, down under their basement room was a cocktail lounge we’d call it now but it wasn’t back then. No. It was, but it was that type of place. They had entertainment there, evening gatherings. Mr. Russell: The saloon you mean? Mrs. Russell: …then after the fire. I thought I remember driving in there on tile floor. They just left the floor, the floor didn’t burn. Do you remember that or… Mr. Russell: No, I don’t recall that. END of Side I – cassette CD is at Track 2 24:16 Mrs. Russell: I had a funny notion that was about as… I can’t re, I don’t think I remember parking lots though very much. Interviewer: Where was the Livingston Hotel located? Mrs. Russell: The corner of Fulton and Division, the…. Mr. Russell: Southeast corner. Mrs. Russell: Southeast corner. Interviewer: Where Davenport business building? Mrs. Russell: Yes…it, where they used to be, that corner. �14 Mr. Russell: Yes, then after the Press building went in there and then Herald and …. Mrs. Russell: Well, they didn’t go in after the Livingston. They were there at the time the Livingston Hotel was there. Mr. Russell: Oh, the Livingston didn’t extend up as far as Sheldon then? Mrs. Russell: Oh, no. The Livingston’s about, a little bit bigger than the Davenport building, and I think maybe the Herald took part of it and got a little bigger and maybe build... Mr. Russell: Yes, I guess that’s right. It was ….. Mrs. Russell: But, that, I’m sure that the Press and the Herald were there be, right along with the Livingston. Interviewer: Where did you, where did you first live when you were married? Mr. Russell: On Oakwood Avenue, just north of Coit. And that was, right after we’d platted the farm out there. You see, we had the Comstock Dairy Farm; it was a hundred and sixty acres, which is Riverside Gardens now and we had joined with Charles Sligh and Jay Post who had frontage up on Plainfield and we were able to make our street extensions continuous from Plainfield down to Monroe, in accordance with the drainage areas, like Comstock Boulevard, now is the drainage area and Sligh Boulevard. And in that manner you didn’t run into these deadend streets and things of that kind when you were able to plat this in conjunction with the adjoining owners, Mr. Charles R. Sligh and Jay Post. And this was the first street that we’d extended from the city up North to the 3 Mile Road, which was the city limits at that time. And our house was one of the first, three or four that were built on that street to open the plat. And then subsequent to that, different sections in Riverside Gardens were put on as they could be absorbed in the market. Mrs. Russell: Oh, that was your business when I married you wasn’t it for a good many years. In fact you still have a few lots haven’t you? Very few. Mr. Russell: Oh, we’re down to about our last half dozen now but it’s pretty well developed up there now But when we were married there was all open fields and we had one of the first houses to be built on the plat; although preceding that, my grandfather had built a very substantial residence on Boltwood Drive and my father and mother Huntley Russell and Clara Russell built the large pillared house that’s still standing out there now, just off from Boltwood Drive. But at that time these two houses were separated by the streetcar line that came by the Wealthy-Taylor car line that ran through there to Comstock Park. �15 Interviewer: Well now, as I am not familiar with that area of town in terms of the names of the streets. As you drive on Monroe Avenue towards well out to the Riverside Park area, where the park is, there’s ….. Mrs. Russell: They gave Riverside Park to the city, they, his family did. Interviewer: Really? Mr. Russell: Yes, that was known in our family as the flats and, we used to have to, in order to raise any crops there at all which was mostly corn, we had to establish dikes, at the river bank to keep the flood water out of that area. And we had pumps operating there pumping it out if it broke at all. After, as time went on, we gave up that section for any residential purpose at all and turned into, dedicated it to the city as a park. And Riverside, Comstock-Riverside Park developed after that. Mrs. Russell: Your plat would be directly east of Riverside Park. Isn’t that right? Mr. Russell: Yes. Mrs. Russell: The one that Riverside Gardens, that he’s talking about, where we lived. We lived on one of those lots east of Monroe. Mr. Russell: So Riverside Park is the property west of Monroe and Riverside Gardens is the property east of Monroe, which is… Interviewer: I see. Mrs. Russell: (?) …and Mrs. Boltwood gave it to the city, isn’t that right? Mr. Russell: Yes, Mrs. Boltwood did. Mrs. Russell: Mrs. Boltwood; they were sisters - Mrs. Lucius Boltwood and Mrs. Huntley Russell. They did, they did quite a lot. Well, this platting was done with both of them together, wasn’t it? Mr. Russell: Yes. Mrs. Russell: It was in their names, of course. Interviewer: When out in there off of Monroe, there’s a large old home that is totally unlike any of the houses that are built in that area around it. It’s a huge home… Mr. Russell: With columns? Mrs. Russell: The columns? �16 Interviewer: Did the columns face to the south? Mr. Russell: No, they faced west. Mrs. Russell: Yes, west. Let’s see. Interviewer: Well maybe, maybe they do face west, and I just never…. Mrs. Russell: White is it, a white house, sort of? Mr. Russell: Green roof? Interviewer: Yes, right, right. Mrs. Russell: There’s a drive going in around it. Interviewer: I’ve never driven over to look at the house up close; I see it from the road Mrs. Russell: I think that’s his home. That was… Mr. Russell: Well, the house really faces west, but you approach it off from Boltwood Drive on the south. Mrs. Russell: Boltwood Drive. The south would be the entry you, you’d come in off, from the south. So you probably thought that was the entrance you see. It is the biggest house out there and it’s startling and it’s a very fine old home. It’s very beautifully built and is yet a beautiful house. His brother lives there yet. Interviewer: Oh, your brother still lives there? Mr. Russell: Charles Russell, yes. And this was originally built on a five acre plot and the old Comstock home was built on a five acre plot just to the west. And then would be platting and of course this acreage was absorbed in lots and the lots on which these houses stood were materially reduced in size. And it looks entirely different there now than it did when they were originally put in in eighteen ninety and nineteen ten. It was just the days of those two original houses. And, the farm buildings were at the juncture of Coit and Guild The dairy barn there had over two hundred head of cattle and they had ran a milk route out of there to supply milk to certain sections of the city. Mrs. Russell: Isn’t that the... .wasn’t that right on the edge of the property that is now Riverside School out there? Mr. Russell: Oh, where the dairy barn was? Mrs. Russell: The dairy barn? �17 Mr. Russell: No the Riverside School is east of there; up on the rise, up on the hill. Mrs. Russell: But I thought it went down to Coit. Doesn’t it, go way down to Coit? Mr. Russell: No. Mrs. Russell: Oh, I thought it did. Mr. Russell: When you look back and think of that as a farm and supplying milk to the city, it’s awfully hard to visualize now with all the houses and development that has taken place. But it was , it was a very good, dairy farm and the property that adjoined it to the north and east, the Nason farm, was subsequently purchased by the Charles Sligh; not Charlie Sligh, but his father, with whom we collaborated on platting the property back in the, we were working on this in the twenties, nineteen twenty. Mrs. Russell: You haven’t said anything about the waterworks. Mr. Russell: Well that was a double enterprise that my grandfather Comstock established to take care of the water necessities of the pavilion and the dummy, which required a large amount of water. Of course, that’s that was the motor powered thing they had to have plenty of water to create the steam to keep the dummy going. And in order to keep the dairy farm up; [to] keep plenty of water flowing to the cattle all the time, he established the water wheel in Lamberton Creek where it crosses Coit, and pumped out of springs in the immediate locality of where the stream comes down through there. And pumped up to a ten thousand gallon tank that stood just south of Northwood, it’s known as Northwood now, and east of Coit. And from there, this water was distributed to the dairy farm and to the North Park Pavilion. Then as the community grew up, more people, more houses built and so forth, they attached on to this water supply and [it was] known as the North Park Water Company. And it gradually grew and grew until at the time, the city came out there and took it over we had about a hundred and fifty customers that [we] were supplying out through North Park. And then when the city grew, the city limits was extended out there, then this company had to be taken over by the city and of course the mains reinforced and distribution enlarged and so forth. Interviewer: Gee, your Grandfather Comstock was into everything, wasn’t he? Mr. Russell: I guess he was. For one time he had a…. Mrs. Russell: You haven’t told… Mr. Russell: ….five farms around town... Mrs. Russell: Fran, I always thought that was interesting that during the Depression, what was that in ninety-three? �18 Mr. Russell: Oh, yes in ninety-three... Mrs. Russell: He issued his own script. He had the Grand Rapids Chair Company, which he’d built; the buildings still there on Monroe. And… Mrs. Russell: Baker Furniture now, isn’t it? Mr. Russell: Yes. Mrs. Russell: Or else taken over by the…. Mr. Russell: I think…. Mrs. Russell: …subsequent merger, I don’t know. Mr. Russell: But he originally built those buildings and, it was called Grand Rapids Chair Company for years. Then across the street, across Monroe, he had a store, a general store, at which his employees traded and they ran into this, financial difficulty in ninety-three, the panic, they were shy of cash, as everybody was, but my grandfather established script known as Comstock script, that he would pay his employees in the factory. And then they’d go across the street and redeem it for groceries in the grocery store. And in this manner he weathered the storm there for several months, I really don’t know the exact period. But it was an interim affair that helped him keep going. He could still manufacture, he could still pay his employees. Mrs. Russell: And they could still eat. Mr. Russell: And still eat. It was a sort of self-contained unit there that made it possible for him to operate during that period. I don’t believe it lasted so very long; but I don’t think it was an extensive as our nineteen-thirty depression; but I really don’t know because I wasn’t around at that time. But it was an interesting operation to be able to work this out with himself instead of just laying these fellows off… Mrs. Russell: I was resourceful. Mr. Russell: …paid ‘em in the script so they could still maintain their domestic operation of families and didn’t starve at all. But he was the mayor at one time, of the city. And he was also a Congressman in Washington, for one term, on the Whig ticket; and in his memoirs he was quite put out with the time that was wasted down there. So much time was killed in talk and not accomplishing things. Mrs. Russell: You must be talking about now (?) Mr. Russell: And this, well that book right in back of you that was a written, his memoirs and we typed them, had them typed and it’s quite, interesting, his…. �19 Mrs. Russell: They’re very historical accounts… Interviewer: I bet it is. Mrs. Russell: He was quite outspoken. He had definite ideas. Mr. Russell: But he… Mrs. Russell: I think there’s one of those in the library isn’t there? Interviewer: Think so? Mrs. Russell: They asked you for one. Didn’t I remember your giving them one? I think there is. Mr. Russell: Z.Z. Lydens said that he had some good leads out of that in writing this last history of Grand Rapids. Interviewer: Oh, yeah? Mr. Russell: He said he got some good information out of that. But, he wrote that at the time he was in Congress because he had so much time on his hands down there. I guess he was not much of a speaker and of course he didn’t have any priority, just being a freshman. And with so much time on his hands he started writing this and followed through and in good shape so it’s made a very interesting history for the family to refer to. Interviewer: That’s it’s a nice… Mr. Russell: But I think there’s a copy of that in the (library). End of Reel I (#31) Mr. Russell: ….That stuff was all by the boards Interviewer: Where did they bring these logs down from? Mr. Russell: Well, this is when they were still cutting within an eight or ten mile area say of North Park, up around Rockford and Belding, Belmont and those places. And they’d, well, they’re a good size log you know and they’d just pile ‘em on these, actually just runners there’s a front runner and a rear runner, and get a pole connecting them - then these logs would really form the body of the vehicle. And they’d be stacked up there in great shape and it would take a good sturdy team of horses, only during the winter of course when they had a good snow on the ground. And then they’d take a load down there and our bobsled would hook a ride on this team behind, go down the road perhaps a half mile or so and then catch another team coming back. �20 Interviewer: Were those logs white pine? Mr. Russell: Oh, I really don’t know the composition; it might have been. Might have been oak or elm or whatever was hanging around p there. You know these good sized trees we have out here… Mrs. Russell: Did they ever float them down the river? Mr. Russell: Oh, yes. Mrs. Russell: Do you know anything about that? Mr. Russell: Yes, they floated them down the river and held them with certain booms down at where the dam is now at, there’s one log jam I remember seeing just a little log[jam] at Leonard Street when they got jammed up there one season. And there was in the spring when the floods would come along, that was the time to dump ‘em in there and bring ‘em down to the saw-mill which was down where the, about where the Grand Trunk Freight House is. And then my grandfather ran this, saw-mill there and a lumber yard. Interviewer: That was another enterprise, huh? Mr. Russell: Well that was in connection with his furniture and so forth. Had to have lumber for furniture to make pails and tubs; you had to have the lumber for. Interviewer: Would you tell me that, we were talking before about the fact that the streetcars had mailboxes on them and people could mail letters on the streetcar. Would you tell me again why they had the mail boxes on the street cars? Mr. Russell: Well, because they were afraid of strikes at that time on the railroads, on the street railways. Mrs. Russell: Street Railway. Mr. Russell: And this, I can’t remember who was superintendent at that time, but he got the bright idea that if we just turned this into a federal operation that would circumvent the strike. And I think that was basically why it was done. Not necessarily for the convenience of the populace so much as it was because it’d keep the railroad going. But it was a very handy thing, particularly to us out there. That was quite… ours was the longest line in town. The WealthyTaylor line came out to Ramona and ended at North Park. That’s quite a distance, going down through town, way out there and back again. And, it was… Mrs. Russell: How far…? Mr. Russell: I think eight miles from end to end. �21 Mrs. Russell: How far out do you think it was developed out this way really, along the railway line? Mr. Russell: Well now you see I didn’t know so much about out here because I was always in the North End. I was always a North Ender, Mrs. Russell: Well I can, it seems to me that about at Plymouth the car would just tear through the greater part of swampland and they’d always pick up speed and go, I thought…. Mr. Russell: Well, that was because there was, there was a slight decline there and … Mrs. Russell: Then, then kept going. Mr. Russell: Let’s see take from the intersection of Wealthy and Lake Drive. There’s a slight decline which was, more accentuated at that time because it’s been filled quite a good deal there to bring the street up. Mrs. Russell I don’t think there were very many houses at all…. Mr. Russell: Oh, there weren’t, no… Mrs. Russell: It was barren land that I remember. Mr. Russell: It was swampy really. Mrs. Russell: Between that and Ramona but Ramona was there a long time ahead of any houses, wasn’t it? Mr. Russell: Oh, yes. Ramona was an amusement park for the benefit of the railroad to bring passengers out there, you see. Mrs. Russell: And what was that beer garden that was there, it was a very famous one that was there just about at the beginning of Ramona, too. What did they call it? A German name, a real German name. Mr. Russell: Oh, yes, that was, that was a good attraction there. Mrs. Russell: Hubers. Mr. Russell: Hubers Beer Garden. Mrs. Russell: Hubers Beer Garden and there was a big one. It was a great big, well it was under cover, it was a building and very popular. That was quite a place of entertainment… Mr. Russell: Basically beer that. �22 Mrs. Russell: ...too you know they’d not hard liquor but basically a beer garden that sort… that’s what it was, all it was, wasn’t it? Mr. Russell: And I don’t think… Mrs. Russell: I don’t think they had food, I think it was just a beer garden. But I remember it always there on the grounds, and it was right close to Ramona. Mr. Russell: And then after that there was the Phoenix Beer Garden which stands where the, which stood where the Yacht Club is now, that on that side of Lake Drive, or Lakeside Drive and between Lakeside Drive and the lake. That was very popular beer garden too for some time. Mrs. Russell: I don’t know that one. Mr. Russell: But you see when they had vaudeville out there, they got a lot of patronage out of Grand Rapids on the streetcars, those would be filled right up with, right up to the roof. Mrs. Russell: Do you remember the… Interviewer: In other words the streetcar owners in that, in those days, were they would devise ways of getting the people to ride that train as much as possible? Mr. Russell: Yes. Interviewer: That’s why he built up Ramona, just to get people taking that long trip back and forth, huh? Mrs. Russell: It was done by the railway company, wasn’t it? Mr. Russell: Yes, they owned the operation out there and …. Mrs. Russell: Do you remember the Honolulu Car that Mr. Hanchett had? Mr. Russell: Yes, he…. Mrs. Russell: …had all the wicker chairs in it. Mr. Russell: Private car, called the Honolulu. Mrs. Russell: He’d take his best friends out for a ride on the street cart and maybe take ‘em to Ramona (and), but it was quite a car. It was shorter and smaller than most of the cars and very nicely decorated. Of course it’d probably look funny now, but it was all wicker furniture and they called it the Honolulu car. That was known all over town. Mr. Russell: That was a result of his having taken a trip over to the Hawaiian Islands…. �23 Mrs. Russell: Oh, I didn’t know that. Mr. Russell: And he brought back a couple of Filipino servants with him, you know. Mrs. Russell: Well, well they were serving on it probably. Mr. Russell: Yes. Mrs. Russell: But I’ll bet that furniture all came from over there too cause it (?) Mr. Russell: But you see that, it was Ramona at one end of the line and then the best days with the West Michigan State Fair, or Comstock Park at the other end, gee that… Mrs. Russell: That was a flourishing line. Mr. Russell: This was a line…. Mrs. Russell; And skating in the winter, there was lots of skating on Reed’s Lake. And that a street railway… Mr. Russell: Streetcars were very… Mrs. Russell: Streetcar was very busy, it really was. Mr. Russell: Well just imagine having one go by every ten minutes, as we used to have. Gosh. Better than any bus or anything else you see [now]. But you had to walk from here to the line to get it, wherever you were. But when you look back on that, and think of how important streetcars were gee that old stuff just phased right out. Interviewer: Looking back and remembering the days when you were growing up and so on, compared to today which age seems to be more pleasant? A better age to live in? Mr. Russell: What do you mean is to whether you’d… Mrs. Russell: Prefer… Mr. Russell: ...Prefer this age or that age… Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Russell: Oh, what age, what age would? Mrs. Russell: I look back about high school and college as, I don’t know, we had such a lot of this kind of slow fun. It was slower paced. The whole thing had to be slower paced. You couldn’t go tearing around at ten things instead of one; you did one thing and made a lot of it. But when I think of your cottage down there at Ottawa Beach and the house parties that you had there and �24 the fun we had going down and fooling around on the beach, now that wouldn’t be any fun, I wouldn’t want to do it you know. Well, because the crowds, the cars and everything else, but then there wouldn’t be anybody around then. Mr. Russell: Well, let’s see… Mrs. Russell: What do you think? Mr. Russell: I think between fifteen and thirty about, those fifteen years that are between fifteen and thirty…. Mrs. Russell: Well I think I’ve ….much older than too. I think I’d pick that out too. Mr. Russell: Liquor wasn’t so important to you. You didn’t… Mrs. Russell: You didn’t have it. Mrs. Russell: It wasn’t a bit important. Mr. Russell: You didn’t have any drugs certainly. And … Mrs. Russell: No, we lacked that. Mr. Russell: We had bicycles and roller skates, ice skates and then just boating. Mrs. Russell: I think we always had boating, lots of sail boating, I, we had lots of fun sailing, of course. Mr. Russell: And the river was made much more use of then, with canoes and row-boats and shells. You know what a shell is, don’t you? Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Russell: Single or double and four and so forth. And we had, well the boat club, they had a two or three eights there, as well as singles and doubles and fours. Interviewer: Did they have the, what are those, waterfalls, in the river then? Down, down… Mr. Russell: Rapids? Interviewer: Well, they were the, where now they’ve got little, I don’t know what you call ’em, they’re not a dam, they don’t hold the water back but they…. Mr. Russell: Obstructions. Well they, they’ve been there only, I don’t think they’re more than twenty five years old, I think they’re fairly recent. Because, I can remember a period when during the summer the riverbeds looked pretty punk there, so many rocks and everything �25 showing it, dried out rocks and moss and so forth and there was a period when they built five obstructions you can’t call them dams you see just an obstruction, way across the river to hold the water back in pools. And I think that’s what we’ve got there now, haven’t we? I don’t think they’ve, I don’t think they’ve all been carried out. Of course, the big dam up above, (has) always been something there. Mrs. Russell: Well now, where it’s at. Where’s the big dam? Mr. Russell: Well the big dam is at Allen Calculator and right across a … Mrs. Russell: I can’t place there, I don’t know if… Mr. Russell: Well, you know where Sixth Street is? Sixth Street Bridge. Mrs. Russell: Oh. Mr. Russell: Newberry Street? Mrs. Russell: Yes Mr. Russell: Just south of there; halfway between there and Bridge Street. Mrs. Russell: Bridge Street? Mr. Russell. Now that dam has always been there; and you know there were canals of either side of the river, from that dam leading down parallel to Monroe. I can remember when it was open there; an open canal, flowing under Bridge Street and then over into Bissell’s. It supplied them with motor power and also to, that was a little bit before my time, Butterworth and Lowe Machine Shop, south of Bissell Plant. Then on the other side it went down to the mills, to the milling companies. Oh yeah, then also there was a mill on this side of the river too; the Valley City Milling the rolling milling company, just north, well right where the post office is. Then on the other side it was the Voigt Milling that’s just been closed but they were both operated by what was known as runnel(?) stone; the water coming down this canal and they’d then take so much of that water off of there and I don’t know how, what the runnel stone is but I just heard so much about it. Mrs. Russell: What is runnel stone? Mr. Russell: Well. Runnel stone is a measure of water power. Mrs. Russell: Oh. Mr. Russell: Carried thru the turbines, don’t you see, to in place of steam power. �26 Interviewer: Did either one of you go off to college, after high school or did you stay in Grand Rapids? Mrs. Russell: No, we both did. I went to Vassar, Vassar College out in Poughkeepsie, New York. And I graduated from there; I was there four years. And you went to the University of Michigan, didn’t you. Mr. Russell: Yes, but I couldn’t get my grandson in the…. Interviewer: Who, Bill? Mr. Russell: Bill, yes. Interviewer: Where did he go to school? Mr. Russell: He’s down to State now. Interviewer: He didn’t want to go to the University of Michigan? Mr. Russell: He wanted to, they wouldn’t take him in. Mrs. Russell: They delayed so long in deciding to take him in, I think he heard about May or something like that, April or May and by that time he couldn’t wait that long so in the meantime, he got set up here. We were very annoyed about it. Terribly annoyed. We’re heavy livers here in Michigan, heavy taxpayers, and it doesn’t make me feel generous toward ‘em at all. Because he was a good student, he wasn’t …. Mr. Russell: Well, they took him in down there at State, he’s nicely located there, and he’s only been there two weeks or so. INDEX A C Adams and Hart Agency · 7 B Baker Furniture · 18 Blodgett Hospital · 7 Blodgetts · 8 Blythefield Club · 2 Boltwood, Mrs. Lucius · 16 Bronson, C.J. · 10 Bronson’s Garage · 10, 11 Butterworth Hospital · 8 Central Grammar School · 5 Central High School · 4, 5 Comstock Dairy Farm · 15 Comstock, Charles.C. · 1, 2 Comstock, Clara E. · 1 Comstock, Nelson and Matter · 3 F Fountain Street School · 8 �27 G P Grand Island · 2 Grand Rapids Boat and Canoe Club · 2 Grand Rapids Chair Company · 18, 19 Grand Rapids Street Railway · 3, 21 Guild, Cornelia · 1 Phoenix Beer Garden · 23 Post, Jay · 15 H Hanchett, Mr. · 23 Heald, Henry · 5 Heritage Hill · 4 Hopson, Lucille I. · 1 Hopson, William C. · 1, 5 Hopson-Bennett Company · 6 Hubers Beer Garden · 22 Hydorn, Frankie M. · 1 L R Ramona Park · 21, 22, 23, 24 Reed’s Lake · 24 Riverside Gardens · 15, 16 Riverside Park · 15, 16 Riverside School · 17 Russell, Charles · 17 Russell, Francis · 1 Russell, Huntley · 1, 15 Russell, Mrs. Huntley · 16 S Lamberton Creek · 18 Livingston Hotel · 13, 14 Shriver-Weatherly · 5 Sligh, Charles · 18 Sligh, Mr. Charles R. · 15 Steinman, Mr. · 7 M U Mays (store) · 5 Michigan Soldier’s Home · 2 UBA Hospital · 7, 8 United Benevolent Association · 8 University of Michigan · 27 N North Park Pavilion · 1, 2, 3, 4, 18 North Park Water Company · 18 O Old Kent Bank · 9 V Valley City Milling · 26 Vassar College · 27 Voigt Milling · 26 W W.C. Hopson and Company · 6 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/915db2a09cc37da9ce3a63df7a64951d.mp3 f59ba150004fa7ac70e04596cc1fca86 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_30-31Russell Title A name given to the resource Russell, Francis and Lucille Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Russell, Francis Russell, Lucille Description An account of the resource Lucille Hopson was born May 25, 1894 in Grand Rapids. She was a graduate of Vassar College. Mrs. Russell died on October 20, 1973. Francis Russell was born June 21, 1892. Mr. Russell's grandfather was C.C. Comstock, founder of Grand Rapids in 1853. C.C. Comstock was associated with the Grand Rapids Chair Company. The Russell's owned the Comstock Dairy Farm, which supplied milk to 150 customers until the city took it over. The family gave Riverside Park to Grand Rapids. He died on August 1, 1984. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4739087d25646afe11f960274d98adae.pdf e0c2f966821d4dc5f073ab25b4029a09 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mrs. John Hodgen Interviewed on October 4, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #29 (26:43) Biographical Information Ruth A. Grinnell was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan on 26 September 1890. She was married to Dr. John T. Hodgen in Grand Rapids on 28 January 1921. Her husband, John was the son of Harry A. Hodgen and Agnes H. Hart and he was born in 1884 at Rye Beach, Rockingham County, New Hampshire. Ruth was Secretary-Treasurer of Grinnell-Row Company for 62 years. Her death occurred 2 March 1978. Her husband preceded her in death in 1954. Ruth Grinnell’s father was Charles L. Grinnell born in August 1857 in Grand Rapids. His death occurred in July 1925. Her mother was Meena Baker, born in Canada about October 1860. Her death occurred in September 1931. Ruth’s brother, Henry L. Grinnell died in Reed City in October 1932. The mother of Charles Grinnell was Henrietta Squier. He was grandson of John Wickliff Squier who built the Squires Opera House that operated in Grand Rapids from 1859 until it burned in 1872. ___________ Interviewer: This interview with Mrs. John Hodgen was recorded on October fourth, nineteen seventy-one….. (put this on the floor.) You were saying you were born in Grand Rapids. Mrs. Hodgen: Yes, I was born in Grand Rapids and my father was born in Grand Rapids, Charles Lawrence Grinnell. And my brother was born in Grand Rapids, Henry Lawrence Grinnell, Olive Grinnell Merrell. And then my Grandfather [John W.] Squier built the first opera house in Grand Rapids which was Squire’s Opera House down on Monroe and it turned into the Grand Opera House finally. And that, I remember that, don’t you? Do you remember it? Interviewer: No. Mrs. Hodgen: Anyway, it was still in existence some years ago and then my Grandfather Grinnell built the Grinnell Block and it was one of the first sprinklered buildings in Grand Rapids, at the corner of Monroe and Crescent. Interviewer: It was a sprinkler building? �2 Mrs. Hodgen: Yes. It was sprinklered afterwards and it was one of the first sprinklered buildings downtown, so they told me anyway. Interviewer: What does that mean, sprinklered? Mrs. Hodgen: Well, it was the sprinkler system all through the building and if it caught fire the sprinklers worked. It was one of the first buildings in Grand Rapids and it was occupied by Wurzburg’s store for a great many years. And then when Wurzburg’s moved on into the Fuller Building which was built before they moved up on Monroe Street, let’s see here…Say Eloise, do you remember who were the people that were in the Grinnell Block Building, a men’s, men’s and boy’s store? Eloise: I know who you mean but I can’t think of the name. Wasn’t it George Booth…wasn’t in there was him on Monroe Street afterwards? Not the MBM? Afraid I couldn’t help you. Mrs. Hodgen: Well, then that’s terrible, because they bought the building…. And they owned it when it was torn down for the complex in there. Interviewer: Was that on the east side of the street? Mrs. Hodgen: It was on the corner of Monroe and Crescent, on the east side of the Monroe and Crescent. Interviewer: I don’t remember who that was either. But that’s, that’s not important exactly who was there. Mrs. Hodgen: Isn’t it? Interviewer: No, that’s alright. Mrs. Hodgen: Then the house on College Avenue was built, about eighty-two or three years ago. And is still is in very good condition. But that’s apartments, two or three apartments in it, I think now. Interviewer: Whereabouts is that house? Mrs. Hodgen: Forty-five North College, it’s in that Hill District there, between Fountain and Fulton. That was the loveliest part of Grand Rapids that many years ago. Interviewer: You grew up there as a child? Mrs. Hodgen: Yes. Interviewer: What was it, what was it like, growing up in that neighborhood? �3 Mrs. Hodgen: Well, it was just perfect, I mean everybody knew everybody else and it was beautiful houses all lovely houses in there and everybody went to Fountain Street School in those days. All the people belonged to the Gamma Delta Tau Sorority in the high schools would walk every Saturday night to Gamma Delta Tau Town meeting if you could believe it now. All the girls walked alone to that meeting. And everybody was interested in what everybody else was doing and it was perfectly delightful neighborhood to belong to. In fact, you knew everybody in the block and the next block and the next block. Interviewer: Was that a paved street then... College Avenue? Mrs. Hodgen: It was paved ever since I can remember it. But I remember after school we all used to, all used to catch bob-sleds first to home and take off our good clothes and put on old clothes and catch and catch bob-sleds. Interviewer: What were the bobs used? Mrs. Hodgen: Well, they were delivery wagons on, on a delivery wagons that had runners, I mean on bobs. We used to that was one of the things, and then I remember going out to the Wilcox’s, the Wilcox’s lived across the street and all that property there which was their farm. And… Interviewer: The one on Lake Drive? Mrs. Hodgen: Yes, on Lake Drive, that was their farm and then we used to go over to the end of the street car line then walk out to their farm for Saturdays. It was a farm. Interviewer: How far did their land, extend out there? How big of a farm was it? Mrs. Hodgen: Oh, I don’t know. It was all the property that they have now out there. All, Mrs. Wilcox gave the children their five houses out there now. And some of the Wilcox family, one of the Wilcox family I think, there’s one of them still lives there on the property. Interviewer: Who, which Wilcox is that, do you know off hand? Mrs. Hodgen: Well her, name isn’t Wilcox, she’s Mrs. Perkins, Mrs. Voigt Perkins was a Wilcox. Interviewer: OK. Mrs. Hodgen: She’s the only one that lives out there. Interviewer: I think she’s, they use that old house, the little old cottage. Mrs. Hodgen: Yes, she does. Interviewer: When you’d go out to that farm on Saturdays what …? �4 Mrs. Hodgen: Well, we used to ride the donkey and play on the way kids do on a farm. Interviewer: Was Lake Drive there at that time? Was that a street? Mrs. Hodgen: Well it was a street but we went, we went to the end of the car line and out there then walked the rest of the way. Interviewer: Where did that carline run? Did that, did that run along Wealthy Street? Mrs. Hodgen: Well, I would say it ran along, yes, I think it ran up Wealthy. It went Cherry to Wealthy. Interviewer: Then you’d walk up….? Mrs.Hodgen: Walk out from the end of the car-line. It went by, by the car barns there by that time, the car barns is on Wealthy now, isn’t it? Interviewer: Was, when you get off at Wealthy was, was that, did you get off where the Old Kent Country Club was? Mrs. Hodgen: No, that’s on Plymouth in and, that’s on Plymouth and Wealthy, isn’t it? No, to tell you the truth I don’t know where, I don’t remember where we got off. You see I have a very, I’m not. I can’t remember anyone’s name. That, and annoys me so not to think of that store that everybody knows in town, if fact I’m not sure that’s still in business. Interviewer: They are still in business somewhere else? Mrs. Hodgen: Well they’re up on Monroe, up, Upper Monroe, for a long time. I don’t know. Of course just as soon as you go, I’ll probably remember it. Interviewer: Did you go to college? Mrs. Hodgen: Yes, I went to, I graduated from high school and I went to Wellesley College. And then I came back here and was treasurer and president of our organizations and I went back and took a post-graduate course at Simmons and came to the office and I’ve been in the office fifty seven years. Here at Grinnell….Company. Interviewer: Who started the business, did you…? Mrs. Hodgen: My grandfather. Henry Grinnell and my father was in it, Charles Grinnell and then I came into it and then my brother had, Henry Grinnell came into it and he was killed in an automobile accident when he was only 38 years old. I’ve been here every since. In fact we have our hundredth anniversary in, in seventy-five. Interviewer: It’s always been selling insurance? �5 Mrs. Hodgen: Yes. It was Henry Grinnell and Son. It’ll be a hundred years old in seventy-five it’s over ninety years old now. Interviewer: Was your brother Henry older or younger than you? Mrs. Hodgen: He was younger. Interviewer: How long ago was that automobile accident that he was in? Mrs. Hodgen: I can’t tell you… a great many years ago. The family are all, all married and that, I don’t know whether you know [Henry’s daughter] Sally (Verney?) Do you know Sally (Virney?) Priscilla Miller was his wife. (?) is now Priscilla Miller. Interviewer: No, I don’t know them. Mrs. Hodgen: And [Henry’s daughter] Mary Swain, do you know the Swain’s? Interviewer: No. Mrs. Hodgen: Well, Sally’s married now to Herb Boschoven who’s one of the vice-presidents of the bank here. And Mary’s married to Bob Swain. Interviewer: I know… Mrs. Hodgen: Do you? Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Hodgen: My niece Sally Grinnell just married Herb Boschoven, a couple of weeks ago. Interviewer: I think I saw something in the paper about that. Mrs. Hodgen: Yes, they both were…. Interviewer: His daughter is Nancy? Mrs. Hodgen: Nancy’s the one she, she is with the State Department over in Thailand now, I think. Interviewer: We went to the same high school together. Mrs. Hodgen: Yes. Interviewer: What was, what was insurance like when they first started the business? Did it operate on the same principles that it operates today? Or was it….? �6 Mrs. Hodgen: Everything, everything was done by hand, then there weren’t any machinery and everybody I remember my father used to go down and deliver every policy. And it was just the way change, everything has changed from a family affair to machines. Interviewer: Who were some of the people that lived on your block? Mrs. Hodgen: Well, the Steketee’s, we were surrounded by Steketee’s . The old original Steketee there is Paul Steketee lived on the corner, around the corner, and Dan Steketee ,one of the sons lived on the corner of College and Fountain and John Steketee lived two houses from that and Paul Frederick lived next to us and Paul Steketee, senior lived on the other side of us around the corner on the corner of, the house is still there, Fulton and Prospect, Peter Steketee lived. In the next block the Putnam’s, Putnam house was a Lew[is] Withey house and the Waters, all the Waters’ property was the next lot down. And the Cole house which Howard Sherman, Howard Sherman still lives at the corner of Fulton and College is still, they still live there. The Waters’ house is torn down, the Putnam house is, and the Wilcox house, which is now the YWCA building. In fact I, remember somebody coming and telling me that if you ever wanted to be in Grand Rapids that you had to live in the property bounded by Union, Cherry, Lafayette and (Union) Fountain. They were all in that little district. Everybody that you knew lived in there. Interviewer: What was, what was that group considered? Were they considered the society of the town? Mrs. Hodgen: I would say so, they knew us…Yes. Interviewer: Is there a society today, right now? Mrs. Hogden: No. Interviewer: Why do you think that is? Mrs. Hodgen: Everything has changed, I mean all you have to do is to, of course in those days when the, all you have to do is go out to clubs like the Kent Country Club and that you. In the years when the country club was started Mr. J.C. Holt, Mr. J.C. Holt was probably a very prominent person … he was considered very high brow at the time and they started, and my father and other people to the country club. And you knew everybody out there. Now you go out there and don’t know anybody. I mean it’s just different people have taken over the different things, that’s all. There is no society like there was. The old timers, we often laugh about it, reading the Sunday society news and don’t know a soul in it. Well, it’s just changed that’s all. Everywhere. Interviewer: What were, what, what were the characteristics of society in those days that might not be characteristic of society today? Mrs. Hodgen: Elegance. �7 Interviewer: Can you tell me about that? Mrs. Hodgen: No, I can’t tell you about it. I mean everybody, everybody had a party in their own house you had everybody, everybody had loads of help and it was very dignified, very lovely and all the young people if you weren’t there at seven o’clock, they sat down without you and you, they used to the country club, if anybody, if anybody drank at the country club they wouldn’t be invited again. Interviewer: So there was very little liquor ever served at parties and stuff? Mrs. Hodgen: Very, just none. I don’t ever remember any when I was young. Interviewer: What was the most elegant party you ever went to? Mrs. Hodgen: Well, everybody used to have at Christmas time when they came home for vacation, everybody had a party. The Bissell’s always had a terribly beautiful party. And Mrs. Lowe always had a beautiful party. Those were the two I remember. Perfectly beautiful ones in Mrs. Lowe’s house which is now Aquinas College. That was their house and they lived there. Interviewer: Can you describe the parties to me, can you describe how they were, how they went. Mrs. Hodgen: I don’t remember one thing now, I haven’t any idea. Interviewer: What did people wear? What kind of outfits? Mrs. Hodgen: Very beautiful and very beautifully made. Everybody had a home dressmaker or a dressmaker. And they were very, very elegant, beautiful material and elegant. Interviewer: What about the men? What did they wear? Mrs. Hodgen: Tuxedos, I think they wore tuxedos. But I suppose different than they are now I don’t know, I don’t see them anymore. Interviewer: Were these, were these parties dinner parties or were they dances? Mrs. Hodgen: Dinner parties. Dinner and dance, yes. Interviewer: How many people would attend a dinner like that? Mrs. Hodgen: fifty or a hundred I don’t know one-hundred in the house, fifty at least. I mean all the young people, I mean there were younger, there were Bissell’s children and another thing that they did now is call. You properly, you weren’t invited again if you didn’t make a party call on anybody. You went around and had calling cards and made a party call on everybody or you weren’t invited to the next party. Interviewer: What’s a party call? �8 Mrs. Hodgen: Just going and thanking them for the party and making, make a calling on people. I mean they called them party calls then. Interviewer: If you were going to a party out at the Lowe’s, which was, I imagine out in the country then wasn’t it? Mrs. Hodgen: That’s where Aquinas College is, that was their house. The main part of the college that they used for the main building was the whole house. All that property the Aquinas owns now was the Lowe, was the Lowe property. Beautiful gardens and very elegant I mean. There was a great deal of help. Everybody had a great deal of help. There wasn’t anybody without help. You entertained in your house. Everybody entertained at home. In the, I guess the Saint Cecilia was in existence then, that was a very prominent place. And there was a German Club, which my mother was the president of all its existence which was a very, very interesting organization; and there was a French Club; the Ladies Literary Club; Women’s University Club which was started under Mrs. Clay Hollister’s who was one of the very prominent people in town. Somebody who can remember much about her, she was a great friend of Mrs. [Charles] Bender’s mother. The [Willard F.] Keeney’s were very prominent people. All the pop, all the people that were prominent then were, there were very few of them in existence even now. There aren’t any of the Lowe family here. John J. Blodgett is the only one of the Blodgett family here. There aren’t any of the Lew Withey family, well, one , maybe the younger Withey I don’t know where he comes in somewhere. Very few of the old families are left. Interviewer: What happens to families….? Mrs. Hodgen: What happens to what? Interviewer: What happens to families like that that are very prominent and have a lot of money and then suddenly they disappear? Mrs. Hodgen: Well, I think most of the Withey’s have died off. Most of the Waters family, I mean Tom Waters just died, the Waters family, they were, they were very well known in town, and had their estate there, used to be called an estate there on the corner of College and Fulton. Oakhurst, they call it, and the Barnhart family. There are few, there’s Helen Barnhart ,…. Only few of those left. Oh, I don’t, I don’t know if there are very many of them left. That’s all. Interviewer: Who was Edmond Lowe? Mrs. Hodgen: Who was what? Interviewer: Who was Edmond Lowe Mrs. Hodgen: Edward Lowe? Interviewer: Edward Lowe? �9 Mrs. Hodgen : Edward Lowe was the one that was, who was, he gave Butterworth Hospital or Butterworth or Edward and Susan Blodgett Lowe I mean. Edward Lowe, I think, I don’t know what, I don’t know what business he was in but he was married to Sue, Mrs. Blodgett, Susan Blodgett was the listed as the foundation of Butterworth Hospital, Edward and Susan Lowe Foundation or foundations for at Butterworth Hospital. And I don’t know anything about the Butterworth’s, but the Butterworth’s were very prominent people a long time ago. One of them gave Butterworth Hospital. Of course, the Blodgett family were a very, very prominent family that gave Blodgett Hospital. Interviewer: They, they actually just gave the hospital, and they built it themselves. Mrs. Hodgen: To start with, yes. Blodgett Hospital was given, or Butterworth was given by the Butterworth family to start with and Blodgett Hospital was given by the Blodgett family to start with, that’s, the reason they’re named after them. Of course, a great many people have contributed a great deal since. What they gave then would be just be a minor amount of what it takes to run a hospital now but they were the ones who started the hospitals. Oh, I don’t know, I’m not fair, there’s so many more, there were so many prominent people, well, well known people in town. But, like all older people, you forget everything. Interviewer: Why, why did you day that J.C. Holt was the high brow? Mrs. Hodgen: ‘Cause he was. Everybody knows…. Interviewer: What, what does that mean exactly? Mrs. Hodgen: Very exclusive. They lived on Lafayette Street and, and anybody he didn’t want in the Kent County Country Club, he would keep out. He wouldn’t let belong to the Kent Country. Interviewer: How could he do that? Mrs. Hodgen: Because he was boss, that’s why. I don’t know how he did it but he did. That was the reputation everybody had from him. You ask any of the old people, older people who, knew the Holt family and all and they know that’s the reputation he had all over town. Interviewer: Are they still here? Mrs. Hodgen: No, there isn’t a single one of the family left. Tom Holt, John Holt, .Bill Holt, Kate Holt and Harry Holt, all those families have all, they all, none of them in Grand Rapids anymore. The [W. O.] Hughart family was another prominent family, they don’t live in, there’s none of the Hughart’s live in town anymore. They owned the house at the corner of Fulton and Lafayette there where the insurance building is now. Mr. [John S.] Lawrence lived across the street from there. He was a very well known person in town. He used to have Sunday afternoon readings, use to read to people on every Sunday afternoon. Interviewer: Used to what? �10 Mrs. Hodgen: Used to have a read, read good books to people Sunday afternoons. Sunday Afternoon Reading Club, I guess you’d call it. Sunday afternoons. And then the Howard O’Brien’s lived across the street, I mean out there on Lafayette Street. And he was the Ambassador to Japan. Not the Howard O’Briens, what was his name? His [Thomas J. O’Brien’s] son was Howard O’Brien. Then the [Charles S.] Hazeltine’s and, some of that that family are still here. Karl Montgelas? The Hazeltine’s were very prominent people. They live on, big house on John Street. Hazeltine and Perkins Drug Company. I can tell you families that were prominent in those days but I can’t tell you much about them. Fanny Hazeltine was the one who married Count [Adolph] von Montgelas when she was visiting Mr. O’Brien who was the ambassador to Japan, to Japan. Interviewer: Count Montgelas? He was a count? Mrs. Hodgen: He was. Do you know who Karl Montgelas is in town? Karl Montgelas is their son. Interviewer: Who? Mrs. Hodgen: Karl Montgelas. Interviewer: Is whose son? Mrs. Hodgen: Mrs. Fanny Hazeltine and Count Montgelas. more than I did, she’s younger than I am. Jo? [Josephine Bender] remembers Interviewer: Well, everybody has like different reminisces and remembers different kinds of things and a lot of things that she remembered are different things than you might remember. Mrs. Hodgen: Oh really? Interviewer: Yes. Mrs.Hodgen: Well she was younger, she was a bit younger than I am. I think she was nearer my, my brothers age. She was between us, I guess, my brother was four years younger than I. She was just between us. She went to Vassar and I went to Wellesley. We were the same vintage; we’d all go to the same parties and everything together. Interviewer: Why did most of the girls here go up to Eastern schools that went to college? Mrs. Hodgen: That was the thing to do. Nobody went to Michigan. Michigan was looked down on in my day and age; I didn’t know anybody who went to the University of Michigan. That was, Vassar was very prominent, I was there only, Miss Mary Hefferan of the [Thomas W.] Hefferan family here were very prominent people in town. Mr. Hefferan was the president of the bank. Both Hefferan’s were presidents of the bank. And Miss Mary Herfferan was the first person from �11 Grand Rapids who ever went to Wellesley. I think and I was about the second person. Nobody went to Wellesley in those days it was considered high, too high brow. Everybody went to Vassar, in fact Grand Rapids is a great, great Vassar community. Interviewer: Why was it considered high brow? Mrs. Hodgen: Oh, it was considered too hard. I mean it was considered too difficult, I mean it was, well they used the word greasy-grind. I think that everybody that went to Wellesley was greasy, a greasy-grind. Interviewer: Well. Mrs. Hodgen: Well, that’s all I know. I don’t know what good that does you. INDEX Aquinas College · 7, 8 Hefferan Family · 11 Hollister, Mrs. Clay · 8 Holt, J.C. · 7, 10 Hughart Family · 10 B K Barnhart Family · 9 Bender, Josephine · 8, 11 Bissell Family · 7, 8 Blodgett Family · 8, 9 Blodgett, John J. · 9 Boschoven, Herb and Sally · 5 Kent Country Club · 4, 6 A L Ladies Literary Club · 8 Lowe, Edmond · 9 Lowe, Mrs. · 7, 8 F Fountain Street School · 3 Frederick, Paul · 6 M Montgelas Family · 10, 11 G Gamma Delta Tau Sorority · 3 German Club · 8 Grinnell, Charles Lawrence (Father) · 1, 4, 6, 7 Grinnell, Henry (Grandfather) · 4, 5 Grinnell, Henry Lawrence (Brother) · 1, 4, 5, 11 H Hazeltine Family · 10, 11 P Perkins, Mrs. Voigt · 3, 10 S Saint Cecilia Music Society · 8 Sherman, Howard · 6 Squier, John W. (Grandfather) · 1 Squier’s Opera House · 1 �12 Steketee Family · 6 W U Waters Family · 6, 9 Wellesley College · 4, 11, 12 Wilcox Family · 3, 6 Withey Family · 6, 8, 9 University of Michigan · 11 V Vassar College · 11 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/67aad407a29d5f56b4ec2b803dc8a4ec.mp3 3936df59b82bb3c11f12c7c92bcd4059 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_29Hodgen Title A name given to the resource Hodgen, Ruth Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hodgen, Ruth Description An account of the resource Ruth Grinnell was born in Grand Rapids in 1890. She graduated from Vassar College. In 1921, she married Dr. John Hodgen. She was the Secretary-Treasurer of Grinnell-Row Company for 62 years. She was involved with St. Cecilia's, the Ladies Literary Club, and the Woman's University Club. She died on March 2, 1978. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0d66a0a1eda90e49fd1f201283228171.pdf 7b93058f6b8cd3500d962902a9b038ca PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Mrs. Noyes [Eileen] Avery Interviewed on October 4, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #28 (2:00:00) Biographical Information Mrs. Avery, born Evelyn Leonard on 28 February 1883 in Grand Rapids was the daughter of Frank E. Leonard and Sarah E. “Sadie” Pierce. Evelyn “Eileen” was married on 5 June 1907 in Grand Rapids to Noyes L. Avery. Mrs. Avery died on 4 August 1972 in her home on Plymouth Road in East Grand Rapids. Mr. Avery had preceded her in death on 4 July 1947. They were both interred at Fulton Street Cemetery in Grand Rapids. Eileen‟s father, Frank E. Leonard was born on 8 April 1855 in Grand Rapids. He died on 25 April 1925 and was buried in Fulton Street Cemetery. He married Sarah E. “Sadie” Pierce on 12 October 1881 in Grand Rapids. Sarah was born in July 1859 and died at her home in East Grand Rapids on 7 December 1950. Noyes L. Avery was born in Grand Rapids on 18 October 1881 and was the son of Noyes Frederick Avery and Anna Haley Barstow. Noyes F. Avery was born on 15 January 1855 in Grand Rapids. He died on 19 November 1925. Anna (Barstow) Avery was born on 11 September 1858 in Paris Township (now Kentwood). She died on 1 September 1921 in Grand Rapids. The Averys are buried in Fulton Street Cemetery. ___________ Interviewer: This interview with Mrs. Noyes Avery was conducted October 4, 1971. OK, we can start. Mrs. Avery: I‟m, I‟m a Leonard, and I‟m also an Avery, I‟m probably the only one, that‟s a good Avery. The Averys came here in I would say eighteen forty. And you see Grand Rapids was not started until, I mean Louis Campau didn‟t come until eighteen twenty-six. And no that was only fourteen years when the Averys, and the Barstow family came and that‟s Mrs. Avery‟s, my mother-in-law‟s name. And her name was Anna Barstow. I don‟t know what to say anything here until I know what I‟m going to say…. (Voice in background: “you go on”) And, they came also at that time. Interviewer: Where did, where did the Averys come from? Mrs. Avery: The Averys came from Salem, Massachusetts. Interviewer: Do you know the reason they moved from there to Grand Rapids? �2 Mrs. Avery: I should but, people came here at that time, came to Michigan at that time and I suppose that‟s why the Leonard family came at that time, too. (It was) about eighteen forty, somewhere in there. Well, the Averys and Barstows were very important people here and they were friends of the Lowes, the Blodgetts. (Voice in background: “Let me think of something”) Interviewer: Well, you don‟t remember any particular reason why the, Averys and the Leonards came to Grand Rapids? Were they, what kind of business were they in when they first came? Mrs. Avery: I think Mr. Avery may have been in the real-estate business. Interviewer: I interviewed a fellow the other day, John Cary, and he told me that when his, I believe it was his father or grandfather, first came to Grand Rapids he bought five acres of land down approximately in the area of the old Union Depot was. Mrs. Avery: Yes. Interviewer: And he bought that from the Averys, bought five acres of land from them. Mrs. Avery: Well, now that probably was why Grandfather Avery came here. I never looked that up. This is interesting. And father Avery was born in eighteen fifty-five. And, my father who was Frank Leonard, Frank E. Leonard, was born in eighteen fifty-five. But Heman Leonard, that was his father, came also in about eighteen forty. So that seemed to be the time that they were settling Michigan. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Avery: Then there was a time, you know, when they were settling Ohio. And then, there was a time when they were settling other states. But this is Michigan. Interviewer: Yes. Where did your family live when you were a child? Mrs. .Avery: They lived on Prospect Street. Oh, in those days, you didn‟t have a house when you were married. You boarded with someone. And, Mr. and Mrs. Avery boarded with someone on Bostwick Street. There was a rooming house up there. They boarded there. My father and mother when they were married, boarded with the Charles Leonards on the corner of Oakes and Sheldon, in a house, I think in that, where Ferguson [Hospital] is now. And they lived there quite a long time. That‟s Mrs. Judd‟s grandfather too, that Leonard. She and I are Leonards. Interviewer: What relation, how, how are you and Mrs. Judd related, exactly? Mrs. Avery: Charles Leonard had a son, Harry Leonard, and Harry is the father of Mrs. Judd. My father was younger and he was Frank, Frank E. and I‟m his daughter. Interviewer: So then you‟re …. Mrs. Avery: She and I are cousins. �3 Interviewer: Well, when your parents moved out of the boardinghouse and bought a home of their own, where, where did they live? Mrs. Avery: They lived on Prospect. It‟s the third house from Wealthy, south on Prospect. It‟s still there. There‟s still a vacant lot by it and the house is still there. And, my mother sold it in nineteen twenty-six, that‟s quite a long time ago, too. Well…. Interviewer: What was it like growing up in the neighborhood? Mrs. Avery: Oh, you knew everybody. And everybody would stop for you in the morning to go to school. School was just one block west. It‟s the Lafayette Street School now. It used to be Wealthy Street School. And, they‟d all stop. The thing I remember most about all this is our wonderful games we used to have after dinner. We played hide-n-seek, over the whole block. All the neighbors, there were forty children in our block. That is four sides of the block. That‟s a lot. Interviewer: Yes, it sure is. Mrs. Avery: The Penneys lived there. They were a well known family. The Halls lived there. They were a well known family. Then on our street, the Stevens‟ lived there. They were a well known family, across the street from us. Well, we all went to school together. We didn‟t have any problems at all. Just came home from school and played. Interviewer: When you got to be a little older was there a lot of entertaining? Mrs. Avery: Oh sure, you mean when I was in high school? Oh yes, we used to have parties. Of course they were just kid parties. We‟d go at eight o‟clock; we didn‟t have dinner or anything. We‟d go at eight o‟clock and come home at ten, and our fathers would come after us. Heavens, we never went anywhere with a boy, whoever heard of such a thing. Interviewer: Going out alone with a boy? Mrs. Avery: Yes, there wasn‟t any reason for it except you just didn‟t do it. Your father went after you. Interviewer: Was that before the automobile? Mrs. Avery: That was before the automobile. When the automobile came in, Mr. Avery, my father-in-law had a car. I can‟t remember, I could tell you look it up probably and find out, because I used to be taken out for rides by Noyes Avery. And then he got a White Steamer, later. And we went way down to Gun Lake and we started at six in the morning, and of course that was the steam engine and every time we came to a farm he‟d get out with his rubber pail and fill …. What‟s that you fill? Interviewer: I am not sure, I‟m…. �4 Mrs. Avery: With steam. Interviewer: The boiler? Mrs. Avery: The boiler. And so we didn‟t run out of steam. And then you would run, when you saw a hill coming you‟d go awfully fast down that hill. Heaven knows how fast, maybe twenty miles an hour. And then you got enough steam to go up a hill. And then we came home and I remember my mother-in-law. She said she put a five dollar bill on my picture in Noyes room so he‟d have enough money for the day. That‟s my mother-in-law. Interviewer: Well, was your husband, did he live in the same neighborhood as you did? Mrs. Avery: No, they lived out you know, where the Fanatorium is? Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Avery: They have a beautiful house down there. Just a beautiful house, wasn‟t a mansion, it was just a home. And it had been built by somebody Taylor. And the Grandfather Avery had bought it and they lived there. And it had a barn for the horses they would have had at that time, but not in my time. They had this lovely automobile, about this long. Can you think of something else? Interviewer: How did you meet your husband? Mrs. Avery: I just saw him on the street one day walking a girl home, in high school. I can remember very well, I thought how handsome he was. He was. And that‟s all. Then you just met him at dancing school probably, Saint Cecilia Dancing School. We all went to dancing school Saturday afternoons. When we were young, we went to the two o‟clock class, Calla Travis. And when we got way up to seventeen or so, then we went to the four o‟clock class. We didn‟t have to get home until after six. Interviewer: What kind of dancing was taught at that school? Mrs. Avery: Oh, it was the two-step, the waltz, the square dances. Interviewer: When did, when would you have use for a square dance? Mrs. Avery: I don‟t know. I don‟t remember any, doing it outside dancing school. But we knew how to do it. And, we‟d go to dancing school out of town someplace and we‟d dance. [In] town when there‟s no way of getting out except by train. Everything is in town. We had a big crowd of young people. Interviewer: When you got older and you got married, when did you get married? Mrs. Avery: Nineteen oh seven �5 Interviewer: Nineteen oh seven? Mrs. Avery: Yes. Interviewer: Well, after you were married in the entertaining among married people? What kind, how was the entertaining done? Mrs. Avery: Well, when we got married we‟d have seven o‟clock dinner, if it was a dress-up one. Otherwise, I think it would be about six thirty and you‟d have four courses, had to have four courses. You see I lived on Barclay Street, near John Street, you know where that is? Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Avery: And there was a house down there, it‟s now a parking lot. That‟s where my husband and his two brothers were born. Because Father and Mother Avery evidently bought that house after they got through their boarding house, and lived there. That was forty-seven Barclay. And then you know all about the Hazeltine family? Interviewer: No. Mrs. Avery: No? I think you ought to find out something about these, these, great families. The O‟Briens? Interviewer: That‟s why, that‟s why we interview, we‟re doing these interviews, to find out about them because they‟re people today that are my age for example, you know you hear those names mentioned occasionally. Mrs. Avery: Yes Interviewer: But you don‟t know what they‟re referring to or who they‟re referring to. What those people are like, what they did in the town and so on. That‟s why, doing these interviews to find out about that and make a record of it. Mrs. Avery: Mr. O‟Brien. I‟m talking about John Street. The Hazeltines lived in the middle of John Street. The house is still there, on the north side of the street. And up on Lafayette, about a half block away, Mr. and Mrs. O‟Brien lived. And when the Hazeltine girl, who was a great friend of mine, Fanny Hazeltine, and I graduated from Vassar College, Mr. O‟Brien, was made the ambassador, appointed to Japan. And they took Fanny along. They were neighbors, within half a block of each other. And they went and she went with them and stayed a year, in diplomatic, and that was pretty great in those days, my goodness. So the O‟Brien family you should know about. The Hazeltine family you should know about. Interviewer: Who was Mr. Holt? �6 Mrs. Avery: Well, he lived right up there on the hill, too. Up, up on Lafayette, too. He had daughters. Well he was of the same generation that Mr. and Mrs. O‟Brien, Mr. and Mrs. Hazeltine. Mr. Holt and their girls were younger than I, but in the same crowd. We were all in one big crowd. When we‟d have a party at Saint Cecelia, it would be a big party because we knew everybody; we all knew everybody. Interviewer: I understand that Mr. Holt was, the… Mrs. Avery: Founder of the Kent County Country Club? Interviewer: I also understand that he was somewhat of a social arbitrator in the city. That he was the one who decided, who was in and was out. Is this right? Mrs. Avery: Well, I wouldn‟t know because I was too young to make any difference. I was in as far as that went. Not because of my family though. Just because of me I guess. Interviewer: OK. Mrs. .Avery: I mean my family was just a good family, the Leonards. And of course my father, now we‟re back to Leonard, my grandfather, his father, Heman Leonard came and I think it was about the same time, eighteen forty. You see, nothing happened here until eighteen twenty-six when Louis Campau came and everything grew from there. He started a grocery store; you know where Houseman‟s is? Interviewer: OK. Mrs. Avery: Well in that corner, and he was connected like almost all grocers were with the A&P coffee, tea and then if you bought that you got a saucer; you know they still do that, or a plate. And he was so successful with his china that he went into the china business. And my father had, when he, when he got to the, when his father died, china store Dick Zeyert and Sons. And that was the important store. You got your silver and glass there on the first floor, china on the second floor, hardware on the third floor, and toys on the fourth floor. Everybody went there for all those things. I mean it was generally, I can remember my, one time, my father saying that he always, when he sent a set of china which was a barrel of china, out I mean you had twelve of everything, that, if they didn‟t keep it, it might be a dozen plates, if they didn‟t keep it they brought it back, it was always, they always smelled of it, because if it has soap-suds on it, you knew that they borrowed it from the store long enough to have a party. Well, that‟s an amusing little bit isn‟t it? Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Avery: But they had beautiful china, the kind that Rood has now only even better. My father went to Europe to buy it. He was connected with a great big firm in New York and he went down there and bought. He spent three or four weeks every spring there, buying toys, china, �7 glass, silver. So you can see it was a very important store and the toy department they always had Santa Claus. He was in the window. And then I got old enough finally, to be a cash girl in the toy department and I‟d run back and forth to the office with money and things and that would be done up. Goodness that was important, Christmas time, the few days before Christmas. And then I got so old that I could be clerk. Boy, was that exciting? That is what you want to know. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Avery: Folklore. Interviewer: Yes. Mrs. Avery: Then of course, everybody came down there and you know everybody who came in almost. You knew people. You weren‟t intimate friends with them but you knew people. What‟s wrong with them in every way. There wasn‟t just parties; it wasn‟t just social, because we couldn‟t have parties all the time. We had a lot of parties. But you don‟t remember the parties; you remember the fun you had. You hide and seek after dinner, and then my mother calling “Eileeeeeen” till I got home. Eight o‟clock. Well, that‟s when you went to bed. And there wasn‟t any of this restlessness. Goodness we had everything we needed and we had fun and friends. It was a great life. It really was. Interviewer: What, what was society based on in those days do you think? If you were, assume that I‟m asking you to define how the society was set up, how did one become a member of society? Mrs. Avery: I don‟t know. You just got to know somebody and were asked in, it‟s asked that‟s all. There wasn‟t any caste about it. Interviewer: It wasn‟t based on money then? Mrs. Avery: No. Not at all, not at all. It was on friendship. Interviewer: Did people that lived in the Hill area, did they have, well when they had parties, for example did they invite people over that lived on the west side of town? Mrs. Avery: No, because they weren‟t their friends. They weren‟t their friends. Interviewer: In other words there… Mrs. Avery: There wasn‟t a caste about it but it was just that your friends over here in the neighborhood, and you had to walk for goodness sakes; you had no way of transportation. No busing. Streetcars, yes. You went everywhere on the streetcar. Oh, we went to the lake at Ramona, we only called it the Lake. We went to the shows every week; our beaus would take us to the shows. Beaus were just boyfriends. There was a very little romance about our high school days. I can remember. I mean it was all friendship and fun. Sound great? �8 Interviewer: Well, it‟s kind of hard for me to imagine I mean, high school today so much different than, just mere friendship. Was at adult parties, was liquor…? Mrs. Avery: No liquor, absolutely not. Interviewer: Why was that? Mrs. Avery: Well, it just wasn‟t done. Interviewer: When did it, when did liquor be, start becoming part of parties? Mrs. Avery: Oh, oh I don‟t know. Not while we lived over there. We moved from that house we built to the corner. And, we came out here in nineteen fifteen. Nobody served liquor at all. Interviewer: You said we came out here, where‟s here? Mrs. Avery: I say we built that house. Interviewer: The one that‟s on Lake Drive? Mrs. Avery: Yes. That big white house and we moved in nineteen fifteen. No, we never thought of it. It just wasn‟t done. We didn‟t even have wine. It just wasn‟t thought of. It just wasn‟t done. Well, it probably was in some circles but not in ours. I mean we went with everybody else but there may have been some people who like Lowes and Blodgetts who may have served wine. I wouldn‟t know. But we never did in our household. And mother and father never did. It‟s just one of those things that wasn‟t done. Interviewer: OK. Mrs. Avery: It‟s like kissing a girl before you‟re engaged. It just wasn‟t done. Or hand-holding, it just wasn‟t done. Nobody held your hand. You wouldn‟t think of walking down the street with somebody holding your hand. Goodness. Interviewer: Times have changed. Mrs. Avery: I, we used to have lovely hayrides. We‟d go way out to Cascade and have supper and come back. On the hayride, a boy put his arm around me and I didn‟t speak to him for a year. A whole year. I wasn‟t any different from rest of the girls. It just wasn‟t done. There‟re certain things that your generation doesn‟t do. I don‟t know whether there is or not. Interviewer: I can‟t think of anything. I‟m going to turn the tape over; it‟s almost done here… Yes, when did the talk about prohibition first start? When, can you first remember hearing talk about prohibition? Mrs. Avery: Oh, I don‟t because there wasn‟t any point in it. There was never any reason for it, for us. We‟d never had anything to drink. �9 Interviewer: How old were you when you took your first drink? Mrs. Avery: Oh, long time ago, I guess. But we didn‟t have it in our house over there. My husband died in forty-seven. Oh, I suppose that, I don‟t know „cause we certainly weren‟t having any whiskey at that time. I mean not how, you know, cocktails, the way we have it now. Interviewer: OK. Do you drink cocktails now? Mrs. Avery: Oh sure, just like everybody else. Interviewer: Well what about the, was this just, you said that you and your husband never had it in the house for example but what, was there somewhat of a double standard? I mean, was it just the women that didn‟t drink or was it also the men? I mean for example, were there saloons downtown where the men could go for lunch and so on? Mrs. Avery: Yes. Interviewer: And they‟d drink at lunch? Mrs. Avery: I don‟t know. Interviewer: Never asked? Mrs. Avery: Not my husband. Interviewer: Ok. Mrs. Avery: It was one of those things that wasn‟t done. When I say that I mean it, just that way. Interviewer: When you built that house across the street were there any of these other houses here? Mrs. Avery: One. One down the street on this side and one being built on the other side. Otherwise it was all woods like this over here. Interviewer: Ok. Now in nineteen fifteen you got back and forth to downtown in an automobile didn‟t you? Mrs. Avery: Yes, by then, we had an automobile. We had an old Tin Lizzy and of course no starter on it. So we left it up on John Street which is a steep hill. Parked it John Street and we‟d walk over and get it and let it run down the hill to start. When I came out here every day to watch them building the house, the men would always start it up for me. I never tried to, it was too hard. Interviewer: Why did, for example, why did you and your husband move away from downtown out to here? �10 Mrs. Avery: Oh, we thought it would be nice to be out here. I lived on Prospect and I used to walk out by myself often. And I liked that corner. Well, we decided that, that downtown was no place to bring up children. Interviewer: Who was Edmond Lowe, or Edward Lowe? Who was he, where did he come from? Mrs. Avery: Well he came from the east I think, I never knew where he came from, I never was curious I suppose, and he was a very important person. A very nice gentleman. And Mr. Blodgett we knew very well. He was, and they built that house out here on Robinson Road, that‟s now Aquinas College—beautiful house. Now if we were asked there for dinner, which we might have been, I don‟t remember, they wouldn‟t serve any liquor. You were invited for seven o‟clock. Got there and you sat down at the table at seven o‟clock. That was what parties were like then. Then they‟d go home at ten or eleven o‟clock. They didn‟t play cards in the evening. Now I‟m speaking of the people that I knew. I‟m not speaking of everybody, I don‟t if everybody… But we didn‟t play cards. My husband never played cards. Interviewer: What would you do after, after you finished eating? Mrs. Avery: Oh, you‟d sit around and visit. First of all the men would sit at the table, or maybe that‟s when they had some wine, I don‟t know. But they‟d sit at the table and then they‟d come out with the ladies. Interviewer: What, the ladies would retire to another room? Mrs. Avery: Yes. Interviewer: When did that, thinking back, when do you think that that kind of living, that kind of society began to change? Mrs. Avery: Well, I don‟t, I was trying to place it over there in that house. Cause we never had cocktail parties over there. And that was in nineteen fifty when I left there. I mean, when my husband was living. My daughter had a beau, who stayed with us, he lived in Cleveland. She married him. And he was an older person. He was twenty-five years older than… And, he had some whisky and in the bathroom, so he may have had some. But we didn‟t serve it. They were married in thirty-five, so it must have been since then. And I don‟t think they ever had any cocktail parties like, like we have now. I‟m sure they didn‟t. Interviewer: Was there any kind of event, anything what, when did society begin to change, when did that style of living and the closeness of the neighborhood that you experienced? Mrs. Avery: Oh. As you got away from it, you didn‟t have neighbors. You see down, down where I lived and where Averys lived they knew all the people around. Mrs. Warner we‟ve just been talking to, lived across from the Avery‟s house, exactly across and she married and we �11 never seemed to know her. We were too far to walk. Nobody had two cars in a family at that time. Interviewer: So what, what started bringing that style of living, living to an end was the dispersal of people? Mrs. Avery: That‟s right. Because, now in the Hill District, they all knew each other and on Lafayette and down John Street where the Hazeltines lived. They all knew each other. The Holts are down there, Campau lived there. Interviewer: This morning talking to a…….Pardon? Mrs. Avery: No. Huguenots, that‟s not their name, oh you know who I mean [Hugharts]. Lived on the corner across from the City Club in that corner brick house. Right across, up Fulton Street. The people knew each other on Fulton Street. The Gays lived up there and he started Berkey and Gay. I should think that would be a good place for you to start, too. Berkey and Gay and I suppose Mrs. Judd told you about the refrigerator company... Interviewer: Ok. Mrs. Avery: …Uncle Charlie Leonard started? He, Uncle Charlie Leonard ran the refrigerator factory and my father ran the store. Do you get a picture of I‟ve, I have given you a picture at all? Interviewer: Yes, fine we‟ll finish there then. INDEX A Aquinas College · 10 Avery Family · 1, 2, 5, 11 Avery, Grandfather · 2, 4 Avery, Mr. · 4 Avery, Noyes · 1, 4 B Barstow , Anna · 1 Barstow Family · 2 Berkey and Gay · 12 Blodgett Family · 2, 9 Blodgett, Mr. · 10 C Campau, Louis · 1, 7 Cary, John · 2 F Fanatorium · 4 G Gun Lake · 4 �12 H O’Brien, Mrs. · 6 Hall Family · 3 Hazeltine Family · 5, 6, 11 Hazeltine, Fanny · 6 Hazeltine, Mr. and Mrs. · 6 Holt, Mr. · 6 Hughart Family · 11 P J Ramona Park · 8 Rood · 7 Penney Family · 3 R Judd, Mrs. · 3, 12 S K Kent County Country Club · 6 Saint Cecelia · 6 Saint Cecilia Dancing School · 4 Salem, Massachusetts · 2 Stevens Family · 3 L Lafayette Street School · 3 Leonard Family · 2, 3, 6 Leonard, Charles · 3 Leonard, Charlie · 12 Leonard, Frank · 2 Leonard, Frank E. · 1, 2, 3 Leonard, Harry · 3 Leonard, Heman · 2, 6 Lowe Family · 2, 9 Lowe, Edward · 10 O O’Brien Family · 5 O’Brien, Mr. · 6 T Travis, Calla · 5 U Union Depot · 2 W Warner, Mrs. · 11 Wealthy Street School · 3 White Steamer · 4 Women's City Club · 11 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e3ef78f9df73fc48c40600c03abe2041.mp3 12eda69efa08d5d26b2080217c1ab727 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_28Avery Title A name given to the resource Avery, Evelyn Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Avery, Evelyn Description An account of the resource Evelyn Leonard was born in Grand Rapids in 1883 and grew up on Prospect Street. Evelyn (Eileen) was the daughter of the inventor of the refrigerator, Frank E. Leonard. Leonard was a Vassar graduate and married Noyes L. Avery in 1907. She was president of both the Women's City Club and Women's University Club in Grand Rapids. Mrs. Avery died on August 4, 1972. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9a750f938b8a45242b67abc0c1a7b33f.pdf 1b09bd3d64ad5a79e37c264bb1964c8d PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Blodgett, John Interviewed on October 2, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #27 (1:00:16) Biographical Information Mr. John Wood Blodgett, Jr. was born on 24 May 1901 in Grand Rapids, Michigan, the son of John Wood Blodgett and Minnie A. Cumnock. John died October, 1987 at the age of 86 years. John Wood Blodgett, Sr. was born 26 July 1860 in Hersey, Osceola County, Michigan, the son of Delos Abiel and Jane S. “Jennie” (Wood) Blodgett. John W. Blodgett, Sr. died on 21 November 1951. He was married to Minnie A. Cumnock on 16 January 1895 in Lowell, Massachusetts. She was the daughter of Alexander G. and Frances F. (Ross) Cumnock, born July 1862 in Massachusetts. Minnie died in 1931. ___________ Mr. Blodgett: Yes, Well, I was born on May twenty-fourth, nineteen one although now, that I have reached my, past my seventieth birthday. I don‟t recall that I ever knew whether I was born in the house on Cherry Street or whether I was born in the old UBA Hospital. But anyway my earliest recollections, of course deal with the house at what originally was known as three hundred and sixty-five Cherry Street. And then some time later, I don‟t recall the exact year that number was changed to four-0-one Cherry. I‟m in the same house you understand. That house is situated where the Stuyvesant Apartments is now at the corner of Madison Avenue and Cherry where State and Cherry run together. And the entrance apparently was always referred to as Cherry Street because the numbers were always Cherry and not State. Let‟s see well, most of my friends in those early days, lived on that block bounded by Cherry Street, Washington Street, Madison Avenue and College; and a great many of them have gone to their reward since then. One of my closest friends was Bill Rogers. I think his official name was Winfield and he was the son of Dr. John R. Rogers who at that time lived on Madison Avenue in the same house that Mrs. Dutcher the podiatrist has her shop now. And another of my closest friends and Bill died quite a number of years ago, I believe, of cancer. Another of my very closest friends was Stanley Barnhart who lived up the street on Cherry Street there and Stan passed away in nineteen hundred and nineteen. I think about late August or early September of nineteen nineteen, but anyway that‟s where my closest friends were. Also in that block was Theron Goodspeed and he‟s dead. Then across on the other side of Madison Avenue, about opposite the Roger‟s house was a fellow named Ed Moore, now I‟m not sure if at this juncture was name was spelled More or Moore. I just have forgotten. But he was never as close as I was to Bill Rogers and Stanley Barnhart. Dudley Cassard, who I believe is still alive last I heard which was a number of years �2 ago, he was living somewhere in the greater Los Angeles area. He was also quite a close friend but I‟d say Bill Rogers and Stan Barnhart were my closest friends; we did a lot of things together. A bunch of kids, I remember, we had a rabbit out in back of the Barnharts house and I guess it must have been a female rabbit, because, I remember she had a litter, if that‟s the correct term for a bunch of young rabbits, and then because she wasn‟t given enough water why she ate all her offspring or rather killed all her offspring and drank their blood and so forth. Interviewer: Oh. Mr. Blodgett: And then I remember along with Jerome Draper who lived on Washington Street, I don‟t know the address but I could, show you the house while we‟re down Washington Street. Why we all owned a hen and our dividends consisted of an egg every now and then. And about the only friend of those days were who was still living is Huston McBain, the retired chairman of the board of Marshall Field and Company, who used to live in those days at the Stratford Arms. Interviewer: Where‟s the Stratford Arms? Mr. Blodgett: The Stratford Arms is on the corner of Morris and Cherry and is still standing and is still called the Stratford Arms. And he lived there incidentally, he is probably the most illustrious of all the group I grew up with because I say he went right through the ranks of Marshall Field and Company and at some incredibly early age why he became chairman of the board and then retired as chairman of the board after serving, I don‟t know how many years. And since then he‟s, because very interested in Scotch things and he is now, written up in Scotch circles because although he is an American citizen, of course, he is the McBain of McBain. And anybody who knows Scotch history knows that that‟s the name of the leader of the clan. Interviewer: Oh. Mr. Blodgett: And so forth and so it‟s quite unusual for an American citizen to be a McBain of McBain. Interviewer: Did he, did he get his start in a department store work in Grand Rapids or did he go to…? Mr. Blodgett: No, he went, I believe to the University of Michigan and possibly some people who were in the University of Michigan, I suspect his class must have been about nineteen twenty-three in Michigan, but I‟m not sure of that. I‟m not sure whether he ever did any work here in Grand Rapids before moving to Chicago or not. I don‟t really know but I don‟t think so. But, Huston McBain can be, as I say is still alive or was last I knew, which was about a couple of months ago and lives over in Illinois. I mean in the greater Chicago area. I have his address downtown, I‟m not sure I have it with me. But anyway he is easily locatable. And… Interviewer: Did you all go to public school? �3 Mr. Blodgett: No, we had a teacher from New England, and later she became an old maid. She wasn‟t an old maid when she came with us. Her name was Lina Morton and up in the third floor of the house on Cherry Street, why we had a small school and I don‟t remember just how many people were in that school and, I think Elizabeth Rogers, Bill‟s sister was there, but Bill himself went to public school. And so I was taught by Miss Morton until I went away to Saint Mark‟s school at South Massachusetts in the fall of nineteen twenty-four. I‟m told that my family, for a couple of summers or maybe, two or three I‟m not sure, went up to Mackinac Island in the summertime but my earliest summer recollection s were down at York Harbor, Maine. And we stayed there until nineteen hundred and, summer of nineteen ten then we all went abroad, that is all. My father, mother, sister and myself to England, we sailed on a White-Star Liner called “the Adriatic”. Whether we came back on the Adriatic or not I don‟t recall. But I do remember we went over on her. And then, in the summer of nineteen eleven, nineteen twelve and nineteen thirteen we were down at Prides Crossing, Mississippi and then in the summer of nineteen fourteen, we all went abroad and of course as everyone knows that‟s the time when World War Onebroke out and at the exact day when mobilization occurred why I was staying with this Swiss maid of mother‟s who sort of looked after us. Her name was Rose Loamer, she was a protestant Swiss from a town of Neuchâtel and at least so I was told, and anyway I‟ve had some stomach trouble probably something I ate unquestionably, and so Rose Loamer and I were staying at this hotel at Avion, which is across in France. Well, Father, Mother and Sister had gone off in the Packard. We‟d taken a Packard touring car to Europe that summer. And anyway they‟d all gone off and so the morning of the mobilization occur why, Rose Loamer and I had a great deal of difficulty in getting anything to eat because not only was, were all the French waiters gone and so forth but of course Switzerland was right across the Lake Geneva and all the Swiss were there so about the only people that were left as hotel staff were Argentineans and other South Americans because everybody else naturally all of Europe was mobilized. And of course everybody knows Switzerland wasn‟t in the war but they don‟t think they weren‟t mobilized too. And so anyway Rose Loamer and I took the boat across to Lozan and then took the train to Lucerne and at Lucerne my Grandfather, Father and Grandmother Cumnock were there. That‟s my mother‟s family. And I believe an aunt of mine, we stayed there as I recall for several weeks. Of course Father, Mother and Sister joined us there a couple of days later and then at Lucerne and then later we all went down to Genoa and took a ship from Genoa to the United States. A ship called Principessa Mafalda. And that‟s a rather long and interesting story because my father had to charter this ship It normally, it was a ship, it was rather small by Atlantic ship standards even in those days because my recollection is it was only a ten thousand ton ship but it normally ran to South America but for some reason or other it was available in, in Genoa there. And so my father chartered it and we filled it up with lots of refugees who had congregated at Genoa, who had poured in from Switzerland, southern France, Austria and Italy and so forth. So anyway she had a pretty full load and she landed in New York. Interviewer: Were they American refugees or? �4 Mr. Blodgett: Oh yes, they were all Americans, but there were an awful lot of Americans stranded in Europe as I say at the outbreak of that war, just the way I suppose there were loads and loads of American stranded in Europe as when the Second World War broke out. Interviewer: Was traveling in Europe, did many people in Grand Rapids that were members of that were more well-to-do travel to Europe in those days? Mr. Blodgett: I would think so, but I naturally don‟t know exactly, but there must have been because… Well, I really don‟t know the answer to that question as to how many but of course as far as travel to Europe is concerned, why there were loads and loads of boats because I remember it wasn‟t till oh I guess just before World War Two that Cunard Line and White Star merged. The British government merged them and until then they were two separate lines. Of course, there weren‟t very many Italian ships going to New York at all I guess „til, I don‟t know, the thirties or something like that. Interviewer: I just wanted to correct something that you said; I just wondered about the date, you said you went off to Saint Mark‟s prep school in nineteen twenty-four. Mr. Blodgett: No, did I say nineteen twenty-four? No, no, nineteen fourteen. Interviewer: OK. Mr. Blodgett: Because after we got landed in New York why then I went up to stay with my grandparents in Lowell [Mass.] because there was, there were a couple of weeks so to kill before I went to Saint Mark‟s. And, incidentally it‟s rather interesting to note that one of my friends in Lowell there in those two weeks was White Vandenberg who later became I think a lieutenant general, maybe a full general in the Air Force and I believe Vandenberg Air Force base on the coast of California, north of Santa Barbara is named after him. But I‟m pretty sure he was either a lieutenant general or a full general before he died. Interviewer: OK. Mr. Blodgett: And incidentally he was related to Arthur Vandenberg here so although White Vandenberg, I think I‟m right in this but as a matter, I suppose of historical record that but I‟m pretty sure that I remember that being told much later that White Vandenberg, although he was a Lowell resident, he got his appointment to West Point from a Senator Arthur, the late Senator Arthur Vandenberg who I believe was his uncle. Interviewer: This school that was in the, on the third floor of your house, what kind of studies did you concentrate on? Mr. Blodgett: Everything but that you know from beginning to read and write, right up to getting ready for St. Mark‟s. Except that Miss Morton didn‟t, of course, teach me any French. And that I learned from Mrs. Charlotte Hughes who used to live on Fulton Street, part of the �5 property where the Reformed Church is now. A great many people probably still alive who vaguely remember Miss Charlotte Hughes because I think, she only died a comparatively few years ago. Interviewer: Why did your parents hire a private teacher for the house rather than send you to the public schools? Mr. Blodgett: That I don‟t know, that I don‟t know. I haven‟t any idea. Interviewer: Yes. Mr. Blodgett: Probably, Mother thought that a private teacher could do it better. That‟s my guess though I‟m not sure. And, yes, of course before going to St. Mark‟s I had to have some Latin and that was taught to me by the late Miss Jeanette Perry who lived on Fulton Street there. And I believe her father at one time was a mayor of Grand Rapids. But she was well known, Miss Perry was later on, in Vassar circles; but she taught me my Latin. Interviewer: How did your family happen to get started in Michigan? Where were they originally located? Mr. Blodgett: Well, that‟s all in those books that I pointed out there along with where my grandfather Delos Blodgett was born in New York State and where he migrated and when he went to Michigan and so forth and so that‟s in all those books. And about the only thing that I can add to those books is that my father always told me that to the best of his knowledge and belief he was the first white child born in Osceola County In other words, Michigan was pretty wild when, he was born in eighteen sixty way up that far north. Interviewer: Well, then lumber is probably is what lured them away from New York State, the lumber business. Mr. Blodgett: No, no it‟s all written up in my grandfather‟s thing there and I‟d much prefer to have you quote that than rather quote me on that subject. Interviewer: OK. Mr. Blodgett: On that, it‟s a matter of historical record because I studied it in college that the stock of which my grandfather was a member is known in American history as the New York, New England stock. I think it‟s called New York, New England rather than the other way around. But anyway, all the people of New, or not all the people naturally, but a great stream of migrants went west from the New England states and poured into the west and a great many of them poured through upper New York state. As a matter of fact, probably one of the most illustrious of that group was Joseph Smith, founder of Mormonism and I believe Brigham Young was also of that same western moving stock. And it was quite a well known historical movement. Interviewer: How did an early lumberman in Michigan get concessions to cut timber? �6 Mr. Blodgett: That I don‟t know. That I don‟t know. Interviewer: Ok. Mr. Blodgett: You see, by the time I came along and got actively interested in the business and well, in nineteen twenty-four after I got out of Harvard why, I wasn‟t really quite active in the business because I was very busy learning to keep books and so forth. I went to DavenportMcLachlan Institute as I think it was then called down on that now vacant lot there that is on Pearl Street about opposite, the Midtown Theatre which used to in my days be called the Powers Theatre. And so learning bookkeeping you might say I really didn‟t get too involved in lumber business until about a year later, because I was just having to learn how to keep books and so forth. I learned to set up my own set of books; of course it was simple in those days and everything like that. Interviewer: When they used to timber here in Michigan and bring the logs down the river was there much theft? Mr. Blodgett: I wouldn‟t know. I wouldn‟t know. I started to explain that by the time I came along of course the family hadn‟t had any timber interests in Michigan for I don‟t know how many years, maybe it was twenty, maybe it was thirty and so forth I mean that‟s a matter of back family history which I don‟t really know about. I mean in other words if somebody asked me if or if you asked me when the last stick of timber cut in Michigan when the Blodgett family were interested in I wouldn‟t be able to answer that at all. My guess is it was somewhere between about eighteen ninety-five and nineteen hundred and five but that‟s just a guess, I wouldn‟t know. Interviewer: Where did, where did your family expand their operations to after they went to Michigan. Mr. Blodgett: They expanded them in two directions down south and then on the Pacific Coast. Interviewer: Are you still involved in the lumber business? Mr. Blodgett: I call myself retired or semi-retired, because thank God I don‟t have to run any lumber companies these days, but I‟m still interested in financially in two companies. One is the Michigan California Lumber Company in El Dorado County, California. That‟s a pine company primarily although there‟s so much white fir up in that country that I think usually the largest single species cut is white fir. And the other is the predecessor. well the other let‟s say is the Arcata Redwood Company which is now the lumbering branch of Arcata National Company which is listed on the big board. And the lumber interests of that company go way back to a tract of timber which was owned I believe somewhere back in the nineteen hundred and five to nineteen hundred and ten era. Again, of course I was a small boy and knew nothing about this. But it was called Hill Davis Company Limited. And the books in the early days were kept in �7 Saginaw, Michigan. The Limited, by the way that‟s used by a great many companies, is that Michigan in those days and until I was thirty five or forty had a law that I‟m told that was quite unique in that you could form things that were called Limited Partnership Associations I think that‟s the correct term. And you‟ll have to consult a lawyer as to what those could do they as I understand it enjoyed most of the advantages of a corporation and most of the advantages of a partnership but without the disadvantages of either and so that‟s why a number of these concerns that we were with were called, had the Limited after it, in other words a great many people looked at, look, used to look at the Limited after these concerns and they‟d say, well this must be a Canadian concern because of course they used that Limited up in, a great deal there. But no, there was the Arcata National that grew out of a tract of timber which was I say formed a long time ago presumably somewhere in around nineteen and five to nineteen ten, called Hill Davis Company Limited and their books were kept as I recall it from the story in Saginaw and then they were, the books were later brought over here and kept in our office. And let‟s see, well I vaguely remember when my father had his office in the Michigan Trust building but, he moved into the present building in which I believe was built and occupied by nineteen sixteen. Of course, that present building as you know on Monroe Avenue there has had three different names. Let‟s see I think it was originally the Grand Rapids Saving Bank Building, then the Grand Rapids Savings Bank, I believe, folded up in the bank holiday and bank depression in thirty-two or thirty-three, and then it became the People‟s National Bank and so then the building became the People‟s National Bank Building. And then when the People‟s National Bank was merged into the Old Kent. Why, since there wasn‟t any more People‟s National Bank, why they just called it the People‟s Building. I had to narrate this story to quite a few people because every now and then in the last few years when I‟ve started new charge accounts, somebody somewhere why people says, “People‟s Building, how did it get that name?” So I‟d have to explain the story to them. It‟s rather amusing. Well, let‟s cut this off a minute, let me have a pipe. Interviewer: Ok, I‟m about ready to exchange tapes, anyway. Mr. Blodgett: Yes Interviewer: You were mentioning that when you were young you were quite interested in fire engines. Could you tell me a little about what the fire engines were like? Mr. Blodgett: Well, the fire engines when I first knew them, of course, were all horse drawn, I don‟t know when the, don‟t remember when the first motorized one came along. But the point is that the Number One Fire House, which of course is where the present Number One is, down there on LaGrave. When they used to come going up Cherry Street why, because they were horse drawn and because the fire engines naturally all didn‟t proceed with the same speed. Why, we small boys would follow them up Cherry Street and if the fire was very near why we‟d stand around and watch it. But, as I remember it, the little chemical wagon, as they used to call it in those days, just had a small tank of chemicals. That was the lightest and so that would usually be first and then would probably come a hose cart with lots of hoses. Then would come the hook �8 and ladder and then the steamer which I remembered was only drawn by three horses. It was considerably slower so if you started up Cherry Street and let‟s say the fire was two or three blocks up Cherry Street or something, why by the time the steamer came along you‟d usually you‟ve been able to run at least a couple of blocks and maybe three up Cherry Street. Follow the fire and so forth. No, as I say I don‟t remember exactly when they changed over from horse drawn to engines. But yes, that was a usual sport in those days. Interviewer: I was just noticing as, we‟re sitting here in this den that this beautiful woodwork. When, when was this home built? Mr. Blodgett: Well, this home was completed and we moved in very early January of nineteen twenty-eight. And I should explain that, after the fall of nineteen twelve, no about August of nineteen thirteen why the house on Cherry Street burned out. I think it‟s more correct to say out than burned down because there were several rooms in it, after the fire, that were perfectly livable in as far as if you didn‟t mind the smoky smell. I mean they weren‟t damaged that much. But anyway, the house was burned out pretty well and so Father and Mother decided not to rebuild and so, we were at Pride‟s Crossing [Massachusetts] at the time the fire occurred and Miss Morton, the teacher and a couple of maids, I believe were in the house. They had no trouble getting out, of course. And then we moved temporarily to the Philo Fuller house on Lafayette Street for a little while. And then we were able to move into my grandfather‟s old place, on the corner of Prospect and Fulton Street. The old D.A. Blodgett house, as I always knew it. And then we lived there until this house here on Plymouth Road was completed and we moved in and, as I say in very early January of nineteen twenty-eight. Interviewer: Who did the woodwork? Mr. Blodgett: This room? Gosh, I can‟t remember, we‟ve got a book in the other room somewhere, all about, quite a number of features of this house. But twenty five years ago, I could have told you a lot more about the house and all that than I can now because frankly I‟ve forgotten a lot of it. The house was designed by Stewart Walker. I think his name was spelled S-T-E-W-A-R-T. Stewart Walker of Walker & Gillette in New York. And this house I believe is one of the better examples of what you might call Modern Georgian architecture in America. Stewart Walker was a great perfectionist and so was my mother and so that‟s the reason for this kind of house. Interviewer: If you don‟t mind me asking, how much would a house like this have cost in nineteen twenty-eight to build? Mr. Blodgett: I haven‟t any idea. I was not a small boy in those days, as a matter of fact I was a budding young businessman, but I never inquired and so I don‟t know to this day, how much this house cost. [I] haven‟t any idea. Interviewer: It‟s really a beautiful place. �9 Mr. Blodgett: Yes. Interviewer: Why in our conversation here this morning you mentioned that summers you spent mostly in the east, was that because you had family out there? Mr. Blodgett: Yes, I suppose that was it and although as I remember, we didn‟t see too much of my grandparents in Lowell, Massachusetts. They usually stayed in Lowell all the year around. Although some summers they would rent a house for a short time but for some reason or another, my mother wanted to go east and so that‟s at least I guess that‟s the reason why we went first to York Harbor and we went to after that to Pride‟s Crossing. Interviewer: Now, with a business such as yours did from what I gather, is somewhat widely dispersed, why have you kept your base of operations here in Grand Rapids? Mr. Blodgett: Well, that‟s just because Grand Rapids has always been home and so forth. But, over the course of the years, between say nineteen thirty-five and nineteen sixty-three or so why I did spend a great deal of time out on the Pacific Coast. I‟ve just recently had to try to find out when my father established his office in Portland, Oregon, and so I‟m not sure of that exact date, I think it was around nineteen hundred and five or nineteen hundred and seven. And the office just consisted of one man was named Peter Brumby, a Canadian and Pete shared this, there was not very much there to do, you might say in one sense of the word. And so Pete Brumby didn‟t even have an office by himself as I remembered in the early days, he shared it with some other fellow. Interviewer: When did your grandfather die? Mr. Blodgett: Well, that again the exact date I think is in the book. I think that was nineteen hundred and seven. But again, that‟s in one of these volumes there. Interviewer: Yes, that‟s when you and your friends had your little mock funeral. Mr. Blodgett: Yes, that I can remember, that‟s one of my earliest recollections that we went to the funeral service at my grandfather‟s house on Fulton Street there and I remember that when I was told I could have my last look at my grandfather Blodgett, why there was a footing for the thing that hold the casket. Of course, I, would being, a very clumsy boy, stumble over that and so forth, much to everybody‟s consternation. But, I didn‟t go out to the cemetery. Father didn‟t think that was advisable and so I remember that somehow or other, Bill Rogers and Stan Barnhart and somebody other, else or maybe a couple of others conceived the idea we ought to have our own funeral and so we went in to the Goodspeeds, I guess, no, you‟d hardly I guess still you‟d call it in those days, carriage house attic and we get a couple of boards, a couple long boards and we nailed an ordinary bushel basket, of which there used to be a great many in those days, ‟cause, that‟s what you put leaves in the Autumn and so we nailed that in there and the rest of us carried Theron Goodspeed around the block and some enterprising mother saw us and �10 knowing that my grandfather‟s funeral had taken place just a little while earlier that afternoon, suspected what was up so they promptly whoever it was promptly called a few other parents and our mock funeral came to an early termination. I don‟t remember that I was punished particularly for that thing probably because we were so darn young. Interviewer: What, how old were you when you went away to school to St. Mark‟s? Mr. Blodgett: Well, let‟s see I was born in May of nineteen hundred and one and I entered in the fall of nineteen fourteen; let‟s see I‟d been thirteen. Interviewer: From that time until you came back to Grand Rapids, after you‟d completed your studies at Harvard did you spend very much time here? Mr. Blodgett: No, very, very little, very little. Interviewer: Did you come back in the summer? Mr. Blodgett: No, we were elsewhere in the summer so I spent very little time in Grand Rapids between nineteen fourteen and fall of nineteen hundred and twenty-four. Interviewer: Did you ever, when you did come home, did you ever attend any parties here? Mr. Blodgett: Yes, yes but I can‟t remember who gave „em or where they were or anything like that much. I remember we were almost always in New York for what you might call Christmas vacation because my mother rented a house in New York and lived there while my sister went to Miss Spencer‟s school in New York. And then my sister came out in New York and so forth and then after that while I was in college we always spent all our Christmases in New York City because so many relatives were either there or in the vicinity Interviewer: I see. Mr. Blodgett: And my sister, after she and Morris Hadley were married, why they lived in Boston or in Cambridge. I should say for a couple of years, because Morris still had two more years to go in Harvard Law School. The war interrupted his education as it did a great many other people. And then, she, my brother-in-law and sister moved to New York because immediately after graduation from Harvard Law School, he went into a firm in New York so he was there. And my Aunt Mary and Uncle Arthur Cumnock always lived in New York and then by that time my mother‟s sister, my Aunt Grace was married and she was living in, she and her husband were living in New York. So actually we had more relatives in New York City then we had in any other place so I think that‟s one reason why we were always there. So I spent many, many, well I suppose that‟s a get out and visit, you can‟t call it a Christmas vacation by, certainly during, while I was in boarding school and while I was in boarding school and while I was in college and that and so forth. Christmas vacations were always spent there and then after I got into business, why since the family were there, and so forth, they wanted me to naturally �11 be there rather than sit here in Grand Rapids by myself and work. I was usually, well I can‟t remember just what year was the last year that I spent a Christmas in New York. I‟d say it must have been as late as nineteen thirty-four probably. Interviewer: That‟s why it intrigues me, why you still maintain your home in Grand Rapids, after having spent so much of your life elsewhere. Mr. Blodgett: Well, I never went down South but twice to the Mobile office. And unfortunately I can‟t give you the exact years I would say this is just a guess though. I first went down in about nineteen twenty-six or twenty-seven and then again about nineteen thirty, I would say. Both times I spent about two or three weeks down there. Incidentally, it is an interesting thing to record for posterity that Blodgett, Mississippi was named after, I suppose, my father rather than my grandfather. I can‟t remember which railroad that‟s on now and I don‟t think it‟s on any Mississippi maps anymore. There was a saw mill there and they were cutting Blodgett timber. But Blodgett, Oregon is not named after any member of my family, contrary to what a great many people think. Interviewer: Was your family, always, members of Fountain Street Church? Mr. Blodgett: No, no we were Park Church people, although my father was not a very devout churchgoer. As a matter of fact, he usually went horse-back riding on Sunday mornings. Interviewer: Do you, do you remember Doctor Wishart? Mr. Blodgett: Oh, very well, very well indeed. Yes. Interviewer: What kind of man was he? Mr. Blodgett: Oh, he was a great man, great man and a wonderful preacher. If you want me to go into that for the benefit if posterity I‟d be delighted to but because I think it‟s rather interesting. Now the year of course would be the year when Doctor Wishart came here first. And that‟s a matter of historical record, down at the Fountain Street Church. I don‟t remember, now just what year it was, but anyway the former pastor of the Fountain Street Church had either retired or died, again that‟s a matter of historical record and so the church had to look for a new pastor. And according to the story I‟ve been told, and which I believe to be quite reliable, they scouted around at the east and they reported that there were two very promising young men. And so promising they didn‟t think the church would make any mistake hiring either one of them. But of course the church naturally could only have one pastor in those days because it wasn‟t until many years after that we even had an assistant pastor. And so the church finally chose Alfred Wesley Wishart. And a matter of historical record I think down at the church where he was preaching before he went to Fountain Street. But, the other man, the man that they thought was very, very good, but they didn‟t quite like him as well as Wishart, was Harry Emerson Fosdick. �12 Interviewer: That‟s interesting. Mr. Blodgett: Now, as I say I‟ve been told that by several people and who were in a position to know and I‟m pretty sure that the old records will bear that out. It seems to me now, let‟s see one of the, one woman who was a great deal older that I was still alive oh way, way until my forties, and I was trying to remember whether that was a Miss Ball or not. I don‟t think that was the name though. But, she was one of the ones that told me this story about picking Doctor Wishart. Interviewer: Are there any Blodgett sons? Do you have any sons coming along that…? Mr. Blodgett: No, I have no sons. I have three daughters by my second marriage. Interviewer: So then they…? Mr. Blodgett: But they are all living in the east, if you can call New Orleans east. My youngest daughter and her husband, he was studying foe a PhD at Harvard in medieval history and they lived at Chatham, Mass. But anyway, he decided to pursue his graduate studies at Tulane and they‟re just this past August why they moved from Chatham down to New Orleans. But until then I had two daughters both married in Massachusetts and one daughter married and living in Washington, D.C. Interviewer: Is the city how, how is Grand Rapids changed? What‟s the most dramatic change in Grand Rapids that you can think of from the time when you were a boy to the…? Mr. Blodgett: Well, I suppose the most dramatic thing is the automobile. I can still remember as a small boy, going down, we had some sort of carriage that had three seats on it you know, I mean three parallel seats. Of course, the coachman a man named Gilbert was in the front one and then I don‟t know where the rest… But anyway we used to load that up every Memorial Day and we would, well the they didn‟t use the term park in those days, cause that‟s an automobile term, but anyway would stop somewhere right around Veterans Park there and we would watch the Veterans march past and of course in the very early days of my recollection why a few of the Civil War Veterans still walked, although most of them rode. But of course the Spanish War Veterans were probably still in their late twenties or early thirties and so they always marched, of course. And so, I‟d say that the greatest single change that I can think of in Grand Rapids although of course it came gradually, was the advent of the automobile. Interviewer: What about servants, people that help out in houses; how has that changed? Mr. Blodgett: Oh that, that‟s changed a very great deal and since the early days. Interviewer: Did you have, did your mother and father have help in the house? Mr. Blodgett: Oh yes, oh yes. Usually a cook and a couple of maids and so forth. And then of course we had the coachman and a man named Gilbert, I‟ve forgotten what his first name was. �13 Gilbert was the last name, I‟m pretty sure. And the later on of course we had a chauffeur. My mother never did learn to drive a car, which was the case with a great many women in those days. Interviewer: Did, did that help live in the house or did they live outside the house? Mr. Blodgett: No, they lived in the house. Interviewer: How, how is the, how it has changed, in terms of the help from then until now? Mr. Blodgett: Well, they, the great change of course has been, it‟s very much more difficult to get anyone. Interviewer: Why is that, do you think? Mr. Blodgett: Oh, gosh I don‟t know. I think maybe my wife would be able to better answer that question. I think it‟s just that people don‟t like what‟s called domestic service anymore and it‟s very hard to get them. That is rather amazing when you consider the unemployment rolls because the wages of course are very good naturally. The wages have gone up a great deal. But of course, speaking of that and changing the subject rather abruptly, I remember when my father paid Miss Welch the secretary there who was with us so many years. I remember when he raised her to two hundred dollars a month. When that was almost an unheard of salary and I don‟t know how much you‟d have to get some economist to do a study the figures to tell you what the buying power of two hundred dollars a month was. I don‟t remember what year it was that father raised Miss Welch to two hundred dollars a month but as I say, the buying power of course in those days, I don‟t know whether it‟d be equivalent to seven hundred dollars a month or eight hundred dollars a month. But that was incredible. Well as a matter of fact, this is a rather interesting point. In the summer of nineteen.., let‟s see, wait a minute, my sister married in the summer of nineteen and nineteen, nineteen twenty we were abroad or I mean we were out west , the whole family. The summer of nineteen twenty when I worked, started my lumbering career really by working in the survey party of the Michigan-California Lumber Company. And a common laborer was paid forty cents an hour and my salary was thirty cents or compensation, wasn‟t a salary was thirty seven and a half cents an hour. That was an eight hour day of course. And, on the other hand, we had to pay I think thirty five cents a meal. Of course we worked six days a week and if you‟ll do a little sharp pencil work I think you‟ll discover that naturally I had you pay for your meals at the thirty five cents a meal, a rate which was, I believe that‟s a dollar and five cents a day. You had to pay for Sunday too. But, anyway, thirty seven and a half cents an hour, I managed to save quite lot of money. Because there wasn‟t very much, that you could spend it on. Of course you had to buy your own overalls and your own shoes those two things that wore out faster than anything. And then, I‟ve always had a sweet tooth and since I was expending a great deal of energy in those days why, I used to eat quite a lot of Ghirardelli Eagle Brand Chocolate made in San Francisco in one pound bars and so forth. The reason for expending energy was that you worked an eight hour day but you walked to and from work and �14 depending on where the job was out in the woods. That was either, I‟d say the nearest we ever worked to the sawmill where I lived was about two and a half miles and usually it was more than that and I recall it was not for more than four miles away. So you can see you‟d have to walk eight miles a day or call it an average of six miles a day to and from work. And then you‟d put in eight hour day on your feet. Of course which it‟s all footwork in the survey party. Footwork and handwork and so forth, I mean you don‟t sit down so you would use up a quite bit of energy. Interviewer: Well, I think we‟ve covered about everything. Mr. Blodgett: OK, fine. INDEX Fuller, Philo · 9 A Arcata National Company · 7 Arcata Redwood Company · 7 G Goodspeed, Theron · 1, 10 Grand Rapids Saving Bank · 8 B Barnhart, Stanley · 1, 2 Blodgett, Delos A. · 1, 5 Blodgett, John Wood · 1 Brumby, Peter · 10 C Cassard, Dudley · 2 Cumnock family · 3 Cumnock, Alexander G. · 1 Cumnock, Arthur · 11 Cumnock, Minnie A. · 1 H Hadley, Morris · 11 Hill Davis Company Limited · 7 Hughes, Mrs. Charlotte · 5 L Loamer, Rose · 3 M Davenport-McLachlan Institute · 6 Draper, Jerome · 2 Dutcher, Mrs. · 1 McBain, Huston · 2, 3 Michigan-California Lumber Company · 7, 14 Midtown Theatre · 6 Moore, Ed · 2 Morton, Lina · 3 Morton, Miss · 3, 9 F P Fosdick, Harry Emerson · 12 Fountain Street Church · 12 Park Congregational Church · 12 People‟s National Bank · 8 Perry, Miss Jeanette · 5 D �15 Powers Theatre · 6 V R Vandenberg, Arthur · 5 Vandenberg, White · 4, 5 Rogers, Bill · 1, 2, 10 Rogers, Dr. John R. · 1 Rogers, Elizabeth · 3 Ross, Frances F. · 1 W S Smith, Joseph · 6 Walker & Gillette · 9 Walker, Stewart · 9 Welch, Miss · 14 White Vandenberg · 5 Wishart, Alfred Wesley · 12 Wishart, Dr. · 12, 13 Wood, Jane S. “Jennie” · 1 World War One · 3 World War Two · 4 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bfded6847212bd876fd276d7daef113f.mp3 cc5f0509e5ed12c10d1ca1453a5fc599 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_27Blodgett Title A name given to the resource Blodgett, John W. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Blodgett, John W. Description An account of the resource John W. (Jack) Blodgett was born on May 24, 1901 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. In addition to continuing the lumbering business of his father, he was a banker. John married Minnie Cumnock in 1895. Apart from the Blodgett Memorial Hospital in East Grand Rapids, they helped found the Clinic for Infant Feeding, the Association for the Blind, the Grand Rapids Child Guidance Clinic, and the D. A Blodgett Home for Children. Blodgett died on October 27, 1987. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1b61b1fc1cfe84acbb5dffe036fa2b85.pdf 6665751455d5ab2218b2c41a21e32c45 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 Robert Davis Interviewed on October 1, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape # 25, 26 Biographical Information Robert Leland Davis was born 4 May 1894 in Grand Rapids, the son of George Albert Davis and Alice Barnard. Robert died 21 December 1979 in Grand Rapids. Coming to Grand Rapids in the 1880‟s from New England, George A. Davis was a founder of the Stowe & Davis Furniture Company. He later was president of the Grand Rapids School board for many years. George was born on 3 January 1853 in Windsor County, Vermont. He passed away on 27 March 1935 at the family home on Fountain Street. George was married to Alice Barnard in Springfield, Vermont in September 1882. Alice was born on 3 October 1853 in Springfield and died at the age of 85 in Grand Rapids on 30 March 1939. ___________ Interviewer: O.K. Yeah, you were saying about Fountain Street? Mr. Davis: Well I‟m one of the few people in the city living in the same house I was born in. There at five thirty-five Fountain Street. My father was, I can talk about it now, came west and bought the place about eighteen oh, eighty-five or there abouts. Oh, the next, the nearest neighbor was on the south side, a Mr. Charles W. Pike who has passed and his family has moved out. On the east side was a vacant block and, I‟ve forgotten, I think it was a family by the name Lamoreaux [William T.] that bought the place on the east. The neighbors around there, across the street were the Bundys and other, which were related to the Hollisters and Hollister was, well the mainstay of the Old National Bank, it was called the Old National in those days. The Old Kent is the name they‟ve taken on when they combined the Old National and the, oh I guess it was called the Kent County Savings Bank. And they were then in the corner of, now I wonder if they moved out of the Pantlind Hotel, that place now called the… Interviewer: Known as the Bank? Mr. Davis: Yeah, of course that‟s all new there, I mean when they built the Pantlind Hotel they, they had a corner built on there, just like the oh, Kent County Savings Bank or the Kent had the north, no the southwest corner of Lyon and Monroe. That‟s where WZZM or something like that, are in there now. But that was a, originally a bank. That was the one Old Kent formed they went in with them at that [ ? ] I mean it was the south of the other place now called the Bank, which [drinking started] and see the Pantlind Hotel, as I recall was built, the present Pantlind was about nineteen between twelve or �2 eleven or maybe fourteen or somewhere along in there. And that was quite a place built in those days. It‟s still quite a place, but on the other hand it isn‟t as new as it was, when I remember it then. And, now as I say, my father bought the place on Fountain Street and now I have lived there all the time since. I say that with reservations. I was an engineer in Westinghouse, living in Pittsburg for a number of years, I lived in Massachusetts for a number of years, but I always kept my legal residence in Grand Rapids. I might have lived in an apartment and had all the outward appearances of being a citizen of Pittsburg but when I wanted to vote, I voted here. Ganson Taggart our attorney, family attorney, was city attorney and he said well if you‟re interested you better keep it here and I said what do I have to do and he says just vote every time and I had this absent voters laws so I could vote by remote control you might say, here in Grand Rapids. Of course I was interested in the Grand Rapids activities because my father was on the Board of Education. And also in, had connections with other things around here such as StoweDavis Furniture Company and things like that. Interviewer: Did your father, was he one of the founders of Stowe-Davis? Mr. Davis: I wouldn‟t say he was a founder but he came here and bought into it, bought, when he moved into town in eighteen eighty-five. It was then a concern called Stowe and Height [Haight], I think. H-e-i-g-h-t or something like that and a, Height [Thomas D. Haight], my father bought him out and then a number of years later, I think L. C. Stowe was, see there‟s several Stowes around town here so, sold out but then he had the major stockholding in the company. Then of course when he retired, why that‟s now gone over to well the Hunting family I judge. That is the Steelcase and that crowd. Hunting in those days was one of my father‟s, associates. Interviewer: Which Hunting was that, David or the old man? Mr. Davis: Well, I don‟t know who you call the old man. The old man that I knew, I meant the, I think it was Edgar Hunting. He was well quite a bit older than I was, naturally and David Hunting I think the one you referred to, I‟m not too sure of him. I think a, he was a little bit older than I am. He graduated in the high school a year or two before me. But he was, and then of course was a series of other Huntings coming along… Interviewer: Well, your father served on the board of education. Was he connected at all with Davis Tech? Mr. Davis: Well, you can call it that. A, he was very much interested in promoting, a well [whether] you call it, technical high school. But you see he had an awful time with me. I cordially disliked school and one of the things he seemed to realize was that there wasn‟t enough technical stuff to keep me interested. And this Latin and all that line of stuff, well my mother who was very much, what do you call them, classical person, she made me hang on to that and he saw to it I kept on going to school. But he realized, I guess that it‟d be better to have a sort of technical school. I don‟t know if you call it really technical, not in my line of thought I wouldn‟t call it that but anyway it was �3 something. And I know he stated one time, it should be a type of school so if anybody quits for any one week, he could feel that the week before he had learned something of practical value. In other words if he had to quit at any time and go and get a job, why he‟d picked up something in the previous weeks which would do him some good. Rather than waiting for the Latin and the Greek and the corruption of that kind, that‟s what I called it, to do some good. Oh I can remember back in those days. You took a lot of English, Ancient English, what good did Chaucer do me? What good did all that kind of stuff do me? See, I‟m an engineer. I happen to be one of the few professional, and I don‟t say few but one of the professional, registered engineers in the city. I‟ve been a college prof[essor] and taught engineering and I‟ve got degrees from Massachusetts Institute of Tech and University of Michigan and I‟m an engineer inherently. All the rest of my family are lawyers. I‟m the only black sheep in the family. I‟ve no objection to lawyers but after all, they‟re the kind that stick to the commas and semi-colons. They don‟t concern themselves with, well, should I say the facts of life. They‟re going go with the law. The law. Well, I probably shouldn‟t be quoted on this but, in my mind I think the lawyers need to have a going over somewhere. Here‟s a thing somebody said as a joke but I can well believe it about true. It was said that one of the later states that is new, Arizona, New Mexico came in, or applied to come in or applied to come in and they set up their, oh what do you call it, laws and regulations and things like that. They had in there, whatever it was, a rule that the circumference of a circle should be three times the diameter in that area because that was convenient. Now, anybody who would do that is just so darn dumb and I don‟t know whether they‟re going or coming because there‟s nothing more fundamental in the universe, than that constant of pi. Just as a thing that is rather interesting, it is said that somewhere over in Europe, some monk or somebody like that who was secluded, he worked on a series to work out the value of pi and he carried it on out to seven hundred decimal places. It never comes to an end and never repeats, so trying to say it‟s going to be three times and that‟s all, why you might just as well said the length of the year is going to be something else. You can‟t change it. And pi is more fundamental even than the length of the year. A few million years, the length of the year is going to change. Nothing‟s ever going to change pi. Interviewer: Yeah… Mr. Davis: Now of course, somebody said that that‟s a joke to show that the lawyers stay with the as a, that‟s the law, well that‟s what it‟s going to be. They‟re going to decide cases on that. It couldn‟t be any cases are decided on that, well what are you going to do? It‟s not right but they have it set up that way. Just like they could go and call red green and green, red. That‟s the law. You see, I got my background of, oh I wouldn‟t say antagonistic to lawyers but, it amuses me how they operate. For instance, I had a cousin who was quite a high powered lawyer, he in his days in college, he was a great football player. And he liked to cite how he played and he won this game and won that game and he did this and he did that. Then he got through the law, high school or college and so on and took the law, then he liked to cite how he got to be a prosecuting attorney. And he likes to say how he won this case and he won that case, and he did this and he did that. Well, I said maybe you shouldn‟t have. Oh, but he says, that‟s what I got to do. Now, what do you do? That shows my attitude towards lawyers. They‟re more �4 concerned with the commas and the semi-colons than they are with the spirit of things. Gee, whiz look, you‟re recording all this stuff. Look what you‟re going to do to me, I‟ll be in jail… Interviewer: …Well you were, you were just talking about change and, you know, talking about change, how has the city changed since you know when you were [alive] growing up? Mr. Davis: Well, of course in those days we had practically no well-paved streets, I mean it was, well I might call „em macadam. But they weren‟t like they are now. So after a rain, why the streets had irregularities and a lot of puddles around. And of course we had streetcars then. And, oh I would say they were more convenient than they are now with the present buses. Fact is the streetcars used to run on a schedule in the middle of the day at every six minutes. You‟d go out and stand on the corner and just like that a car would be along for you. Of course, as an engineer I‟m very much interested in the streetcars.. The Lyon Street Hill Line had a special breaking system because it was steep and, oh there was a lot of things that I got interested along that line. And I think it‟s very unfortunate that, well, what should I say, situation is not suitable for fixed transportation like streetcars. That is you can‟t expect people to go out and stand in the street with the auto traffic these days. On the other hand it had been much better if we had equivalent of the street cars, well you might even say trolley-buses. They, they had those in Detroit for a while. They‟ve had „em in a lot of cities but, oh I don‟t know the economics and things don‟t seem to be too good. They can draw up at the curb, but of course they have the same trouble as the streetcars, they had fixed routes and well if something happens, well you‟re stuck on your fixed route, you can‟t go on around the block like on a regular bus can. And, well things like that I think it‟s very unfortunate we don‟t have more viewpoint of that type of transportation. Poor old city of Grand Rapids, well here again, of course it‟s my native town, I feel like I can take it apart if I want to. I think it‟s about the poorest operated engineering town of any place I know of. An illustration of that, as I mentioned this before, I looked up the number of engineers, registered engineers, professionals, in the city and there‟s fewer engineers per unit of population here in Grand Rapids than any other city in the state. In other words we‟re, we‟re just, well, I‟ll almost say a kind of an enlarged Rockford or something like that. We‟re just a bigger town. The companies that really do business here do most of their engineering outside. Bell Telephone Company, the other companies, they‟re all engineers from either Detroit or some other place. Grand Rapids is just a place to live or exist or something like that. And that‟s too bad, too much of a common attitude. We ought to have more people on the city commission say, that have an engineering background. They don‟t. Look we‟re full of insurance guys and oh, people [of] that kind, I was going to say, undertakers and whatnot, the undertaker‟s gone, but that‟s about what it is. What do they know about anything? They don‟t know anything. Interviewer: Was it different when you were growing up, the city commission, the composition of the city commission? �5 Mr. Davis: Well of course in those days we had the city, that‟s the thing I would like to, gee whiz you‟re getting me into awful mess. I would like to feel that we‟re going to have a return to what we used to have, namely aldermen and a mayor. My youngest days, up to the time I was about a senior in high school, I graduated in twelve[1912], we had the aldermen, 12 wards, two aldermen from each ward. Well, you know how things go in cycles. All of a sudden they got excited and they said we‟ve got to have a commission form of government. Some of it good. But look what happened, look what we got. As long as it went along on a good form of commission form of government with proper people in there, I think it wasn‟t too bad. They got a lot of us young fellows in high school to go out and stand on corners and hand out stuff and promote the city commission. Well it apparently got in. Now I‟d work just as hard to put it back out again, because we need more representation of the people. In those days, you had aldermen around, two aldermen for your ward. Of course he had a smaller group to look after, you might call it that. If you wanted something, I mean felt something ought to be changed, you could go down and talk with him and he was, why I don‟t mean to say he could do an awful lot, I mean he might not upset anything, he would at least be more, well I won‟t say more polite, but I mean more cognizant of what you were, willing to be cognizant of what you were doing. Now you go down and talk with the city commissioner, well, that‟s in the hands of the city manager. Now I‟d have thrown that city manager out there so far he‟d never come to surface. They have no business having a manager like that, who‟s little king god in the glass case down there, and he runs the town. I don‟t know which side of the fence you‟re on, I can see you‟re laughing, he acts as if he ran the town. He, the city commission rubber stamps what he wants. Now I got no use for that. I‟d say that maybe we need a city manager, a fellow who would be kind of a high grade book-keeper and well not exactly a lawyer but look at the things with the city man, the city commission tells him what to do, want the city commission to be enough of „em so that if they‟re going to look after you in your ward when you‟re, represent something, or want something, they‟ll say yes, we‟ll think about it, we‟ll do what we can. We‟ll give it consideration. Now they say that‟s in the hands of the city manager. Interviewer: Well who ran the town? If the city manager is running the town today, who ran the town a…? Mr. Davis: Well, it [goes] to the city a, the alder-man and the mayor. Now of course there used to be squabbles, and they said that the aldermen got crooked. Hell, my attitude is, if they got crooked, that‟s just up [to] the citizens to throw „em out. You used to hear about some petty graft of one kind or another, anything from garbage collection to what not, which they‟re squabbling over now. They, who got it, well they‟d be saying so and so‟s working and he was well associated with such and such and I don‟t know what [I‟m talking] you know. Well, I‟d rather have it in the shape of somebody who‟s gonna be interested in what you want, rather than what we got now. Now, being of course an engineer I‟ m all strong for having better engineering. And poor old Grand Rapids don‟t seem to have enough sense to know what to do. Let‟s cite a couple of things. I‟ve been a member of the Engineers‟ Club for a number of years. Oh I don‟t know, about in the late thirties when I came back here, that was because my father was in his last days and he, �6 they said you got to come back, to look after some of the family affairs. So I came back to Grand Rapids, and doing what I could of course, then I, I got mixed up in the Engineers‟ Club and they were then getting ready for the pipe line, they were fussing about it. And, well we said that they ought to have some engineers studying the thing and then, the mayor then went and appealed the Engineers‟ Club and anyway he got a committee started. I happened to be on that committee. And we recommended then to put in at least a sixty-inch pipeline and perhaps bigger. Look what they did they put in a forty-six. We knew it was gonna, was going wrong, but that‟s what you got. Well, I mean the type of, remember that‟s the city commission and, and aldermen. That‟s what they said you got to do. Another illustration of how they, they sort of needled us over it, obviously when they lay out a pipeline you try to lay it out according to engineering principles and grades and things like that. They said to me later on, are you working for Frank McKay? And I said no, what makes you think so? Well you got that running across some of his land. Well I tell „em I can‟t help the geography of the place. If the pipeline ought to go along that place because of the grades, well that‟s where it ought to go. Well that‟s part of Frank McKay‟s land you‟re recommend that he get some sold or you know. They made me so peeved one time that I went and told this bird, I said look if you, I‟ll quit the city entirely and I don‟t care whether it burns down or not. But if you‟re gonna look at things that way. Interviewer: Well, before they had the pipeline, where‟d they get their water? Mr. Davis: Oh, out of the river. And it was a pretty dirty mess. Why perhaps I shouldn‟t say that. Back in about nineteen eleven or twelve, I can remember as a youngster, they built the filtration plant that‟s down there where it is now. And they took water out of the river. Prior to that they‟d taken it right out of the river with no filtration. And I can remember in my youngest days, which is about nineteen hundred when I began to remember things, they used to have to boil all the water. It was all the health authorities recommended, any water used for drinking, you boil. Well, I don‟t know. I guess most of us did, at least that was up to my mother to run the kitchen department. I don‟t know what she did but anyway that was one of the things. Interviewer: Was there any sickness or anything that… Mr. Davis: Oh yeah, typhoid fever was much more prevalent than it is now. I guess we‟re fairly healthy now. But even at that, it‟s not too good a water supply because on the basis of what we figured it, you needed a bigger pipeline. There‟s not enough water in the city despite that, in the summer, despite that report that came in that we could get along for a while because during the summer months, they take water out of the river, to augment what they get over the pipeline. And of course they, they treat it some, but it still, is much harder than Lake Michigan water would be on a normal basis if we had straight Lake Michigan water. Well anyway it just shows that poor old Grand Rapids has got no engineering background. Another thing that griped me [to] no end, as an engineer, I‟m [an] electrical engineer, I believe in running everything electrical that you can. But there‟re some things that you got to be very fundamental about. Water is one of ‟em. You need water whether the juice fails or not. You can‟t run a hundred percent safe on �7 electrical pumps. Pipeline can be, I mean the transmission lines can get knocked down, or they can have sub-stations get knocked out, things like that. When the water works ran by steam, and there‟s a lot of good size cities that still do that and it‟s fundamental, you‟re independent. Maybe you can‟t furnish all the water they want but at least you‟ve got enough so that the power company can‟t close up for half a day while the Russians knock „em out or something like that. And you‟re dependent on the water. Of course they say, well we got storage. Yes, but that storage wouldn‟t last ya very long if we‟re totally dependent on outside power. A corollary end to that is that not too many years ago all the hospitals around here, the bigger ones used to have their own power plant, I can remember Butterworth out here, had its own power plant. Well, that‟s an ideal thing, make juice and then you have light and they run the elevators and it gives all the service you need and then you have heat from the exhaust when you need it and it‟s a very nice thing. Well, that costs a little more, the cost of labor‟s getting so high to hire engineers, I mean operating engineers to run the place is getting to be expensive. So the power company and I guess the board of directors of the hospitals says, well alright we‟ll buy power. And they went over and the power company went on a basis we‟ll furnish you two circuits, if both of „em won‟t get knocked out. Sounds good, but it wasn‟t too long before the power company and the people got together and they says look, we‟ve got to be sure about this. The telephone company, they want to be fundamentally supplied. They got a diesel engine down there to be used for auxiliary. Well, they recommend that the hospital put in a diesel and I think Butterworth has one. It won‟t furnish everything but it won‟t put „em black. Things like that, you got to think about. You might say, well it costs more. Well gee, insurance costs you more, why have insurance? Just get along and say I don‟t need insurance. But you buy insurance because you never know, you might want it. And to pay a little extra for auxiliary power, that‟s like the insurance. I‟m afraid I‟m getting off the track. I‟m just… Interviewer: Well, talking about electrical, what kind of electrical system did they have when you were a kid? Mr. Davis: Around here? Interviewer: Yeah. Mr. Davis: Well a, the water works had an auxiliary, I don‟t mean auxiliary generator, but a little generator and it made power for some of the, for the street light, on a, first place it had quite a plant for making street lights. They were the old arc-light type. The plant, when I first remember it, was down on the river way over on the east bank of the river between Fulton and Wealthy. Down where the market is and about in there. And it furnished juice to run all the arc-lights around. And, well at one interesting corollary on that, somebody had the idea that you ought to light from overhead and so they had some of these high towers. I don‟t know if you ever heard of them, towers about a hundred feet high and they had four arc-lights up on the top of those. And they would, supposed to cover the neighborhood. Well it didn‟t, „cause the trees covered up [?] fundamentally it was probably a good idea. But after a while the towers got kind of questionable and they took „em down and then they distributed the lights around the neighborhood but they still �8 were lacking plenty of light. We‟re gradually improving it, but I can‟t kick too much on that. Poor old Grand Rapids can‟t scrape up enough money to light the place the way it ought to be but I do hate to see „em get totally, and I‟ve no objection to the power company, I‟ve got a lot of good friends down there, I don‟t like to see a thing like a city get totally in the clutches of a company and say look, at such and such a time we‟re gonna raise the rates, well and , go on that kind of a basis. If they had their own power plant down there, even though it‟s standing still, could say alright, we‟ll take over whatever load we need and make it ourselves. Now on that basis, that‟s another thing that gripes me to no end. They went and tore down the smokestack on the waterworks. You probably remember when that stood up there, a big tall smokestack. They tore that down, oh I don‟t know, somewhere in the last two-three years. It was a good smokestack. Probably hadn‟t used it for several years because it had gone over to electric power. But on the other hand it needed some proper touching up. That is you know, pointing, as they call brick work. They should have been pointing up. So somebody says oh well it‟s getting to be a hazard now. It isn‟t safe. It wasn‟t so old, there‟s lots of older smokestacks than that around town. But they didn‟t pay any attention to it. They didn‟t do anything. Interviewer: What did , where did the homes get their electricity? Mr. Davis: Oh, we bought that from the power company. That was quite common in those days. I mean that‟s about all you could get. You didn‟t want to make a power plant in your own home. Although I had that kind of a rig. I lived out on Silver Lake, out here in the summer time and of course then, I‟d gotten away from town, and with Westinghouse, and I had a chance to buy equipment. So I went and bought what they called farm light equipment. Remember those things they used to call farm lights? Farmers used to have those because they wanted light and power, small amounts. So I went and bought farm light equipment, or had it shipped up here, put it in the cottage, and for a number of years out here we lit the cottage on our own power plant. I like that kind of stuff. I got the generator for the place down I my cellar right now. And the engine is still out in the summer, the cottage. I don‟t know what to do with it, I‟ve been thinking I might give it to the library, I mean the museum, a place of that kind. Interviewer: Did you, did your family home have electricity from the time you can remember? Mr. Davis: Oh, no no. Interviewer: What, what did they have? Mr. Davis: Well, they had gas. Gas. And still, I go on the basis if I want fundamental things in there, so the gas piping is still in the house. I think possibly I should cut it off but I, I don‟t want to do that. I like to have it there. Now, of course we use gas for water heating. No question about it, gas is cheaper, for just pure heat. It, you can make, I mean BTUs per dollar are cheaper with gas than with electricity. No question about it. �9 Interviewer: How did those gas lights in the home work? Mr. Davis: Well, you see „em around the streets now. They, they‟re putting „em out here, they‟re mantel lamps. Once of course they had the old fishtail lamps at one time. You go down to this gas light village down here and you can see a lot of „em. Fish tail lights were just jet on the end of a fixture you might say, a fixture arranged to be artistic and things of that kind, glass globes and all kinds of thing on „em. But the gas lights made a mild amount of [?]. They were better than kerosene lamps, let‟s put it that way. We had some kerosene lamps in our house; I can remember early days the kitchen had a kerosene lamp out there. Why, I don‟t know but it had, they never put the gas out there. They had a gas stove for cooking and it also had a, well I guess you‟d call it, coal range. You could cook on that and heat the oven and do that sort of stuff with a coal range in the winter. Interviewer: They burn coal? Mr. Davis: Burn Coal, small [?] of coal. Interviewer: I was talking to a fellow this morning who was involved in the fuel business in Grand Rapids and he was saying that most of the homes at that time were, in fact all the homes heated with coal. What was the air like in the city then? Mr. Davis: The air? Oh you would never know it. It‟s just as good as it is now. Probably better. We, this furor over pollution, I‟m all in favor of reducing pollution but let‟s go at it on the basis of knowing what we‟re talking about. There‟s a lot more smoke and stuff coming out of big places, which they don‟t fuss about, than there was probably was in all the the coal smoking days, I mean coal burning days of the city. Now it‟s not as bad here because they usually burn hard coal. That‟s more or less smokeless. If you lived in Pittsburg a while, you‟d know what it is to burn soft coal domestically. It‟s rather amusing down there, at least when I was first there. The coal is so plentiful it‟s practically in every farmer‟s backyard. And I boarded, that was before I was married, I boarded in a place in the, heard the man of the house say one time, along about this time of the year. Well, we‟d better call up the farmer and have him bring in some coal. Well I thought that was kind of funny and I asked him about it and he said oh yes he had a side hill out here and he brings in coal. I don‟t, it wasn‟t very good coal, I know that and they, you bring it in and dump it [in on] the sidewalk or I mean in the curb and then he‟d hire somebody to shovel it up and put it in the cellar for him. Interviewer: [When] hmm Mr. Davis: And, but it was, oh I mean they got along, but it was rather interesting though. I used to travel quite a bit between Pittsburg and New York City and they‟d come in from New York City on this train at night, I mean the sleeper car and get there in the morning, and as you‟d come into the city from the east, as you came into the town there‟d be a kind of a haze over the whole city; because practically every house was, letting out a little cloud of smoke. Not, I wouldn‟t call it smoke, but a kind of a haze. �10 And you could definitely notice it. Very definitely as you came into town, clear outside in the country, and as you came into the city, an awful smoke. Of course Pittsburg has a horrible problem, or did in those days. They‟ve cleaned up a lot now. The mills made a lot of smoke. Coal mills, I mean a, steel mills, all those things. They used to make an awful mess around there. You got so you, well you‟re just accustomed to it. Well when I got married and went down there and lived there awhile with my wife, well you couldn‟t [just] go out in the evening. You‟d put on a fresh shirt, because the one you‟d been wearing during the day time was sooty. [went up] ? ? ? wife says oh you have to clean tonight. And things like that. I mean it showed up. Interviewer: But Grand Rapids never had that…? Mr. Davis: Never, never that bad, no. It wasn‟t, oh I don‟t know, the biggest problem I had from it, of course that was after I got back here, the Central High School, was really quite a boiler plant down there, used to burn coal. And they were very careless about it and they used to make a lot of smoke. I worked with Boelens who was then smoke inspector, and took pictures of the place and I don‟t know as that had any results, well anyway, not too many years ago they changed over to gas. That‟s good, as far as the neighborhood was concerned because they‟re not so dirty. Used to be that, under the eaves of a house, where the rain didn‟t come down and wash it off, why it‟d always be dark there, I mean dirty. Because the smoke had drifted in and deposited the soot and that was that. Now they don‟t have to paint quite so often, as we used to. On the other hand though, the gas is a big problem. Most people don‟t realize that, on the, for instance we live in a very old house as you can appreciate, not very old, about a hundred years old but anyway it was built before the time of chimney specifications which required a ceramic liner. Now then, if you burn coal, the coal gas was dry. Now you burn gas and the gas comes out with a lot of water vapor if you know how the exhaust of a car is in the winter, a plume of steam. Well, that‟s just the nature of the stuff. If you put that gas, I mean a burner big enough to heat your house, into an old house, with an unlined chimney like I have you can‟t get away with it because it‟ll, the moisture in the course of two or three years will go through the [?] Interviewer: Ok. Mr. Davis: And the, well I can‟t do it in my house because the chimney runs right up through the living room. We got bookcases around it and all that sort of stuff. It‟d take the plaster off the walls and I couldn‟t tolerate it so I‟m still burning coal but I got it all automatic, it‟s got a stoker, as you call it, though it may be a little smudge out of it once in a while, you can oh, at intervals between stoker firings you might call it that, why there‟d be a little haze come out of the stack but there‟s not dirty around there like it used to, I mean it would be if you‟re burning coal raw or with the high school burning coal, I‟d get over to gas if I could and I have a lot of good friends down in the gas company I‟d tell „em, will you fix me up [an] arrangement so I can burn gas without [ruining] my house. And they say, oh no, we can‟t guarantee that. I say you‟ll have to put up a bond if you want to do that. And oh no we wouldn‟t do that. So here I am running along with coal for the fire and I might say it‟s something of a chore because I‟ve gotten to the point �11 where the doctors now tell me I shouldn‟t shovel coal to any great extent, and I have to hire a fellow in the winter to put the coal in the hopper. Well that takes effort. It‟s not the best thing [?] I‟d switch over to gas anytime. It‟d probably cost a little more but then I wouldn‟t have to pay a guy a, oh eight - ten dollars a week to come in and keep the coal hopper full. Particularly when we go out of town, why it‟s something that has to be taken care of, you can‟t just go along and forget it. But even at that I wouldn‟t recommend any-body with a gas heating plant to go along and I hear a, people going oh I just went south and I left it running. As an engineer I wouldn‟t let that thing run without attention at least once or twice a day on any account. Something could fail. Then what would happen? I wouldn‟t take long for in zero weather for the house to freeze. Then it‟d be several hundred dollars of plumbing repair. Interviewer: Um hm. Mr. Davis: For example in my house, too. When we go out of town, even though we have a fellow looking after it I have a light in the window, under the control of an auxiliary thermostat which is set at about fifty degrees. If the temperature ever got down to fifty degrees, that light would light, then the neighbors are supposed to gallop in and find out what‟s wrong. Well, why not? Interviewer: That‟s a good idea. Well, they say most of the air pollution today is caused by the automobile. Do you remember the first car that you ever saw? Mr. Davis: Oh yes. Interviewer: What kind of car was it and who had it? What was the effect on the city when the cars started coming in? Mr. Davis: [?] it was always a novelty to see this damn thing chugging down the street. There was a one cylinder Cadillacs and Oldsmobiles one cylinder running along underneath. You cranked it on the side by putting the crank on auxiliary. You had a chain drive running from the engine shaft to the rear axel, and you‟d get in there and you‟d steer it with a tiller. They used to have the cold, curved dash, Oldsmobile had a curve on the bottom of it, sleigh you might say. Oh they‟d run around. Sure they had, interesting, they gradually got more and more and they got the cars so you didn‟t have to…, there used to be the joke, every now and then they get stuck and somebody‟d go by and yell at „em, “Hire a horse.” Oh but that lasted, the first cars I remember were oh probably nineteen two and three and four, somewhere along in there. Some of „em were steam cars. I had a great respect for steam cars. The old White Steamer, was a steam car. It had a boiler under the seat. The engine in the first ones was right alongside the boiler, it drove with a chain drive. Then the better White Steamers, I mean newer ones came out with the engine under the hood, the boiler was still under the seat. But they were quite a car. They would outrun most anything that you could imagine these days. I know I had a test ride in one one time. A fellow came in the factory, a neighbor of ours had one and went out and drove down the Cascade road. That was about the only passable road out of here. And they used to have a lot of pumps along the dash, if you‟d pump awhile and do �12 different things with „em and the fellow was in there and he was steering with one and he was looking at the road and pumping these things and she was running sixty and he says, “She ain‟t steamin‟ quite like she ought to.” Well, I thought it was just as well she isn‟t steaming [?]the thought of goin‟ much faster over that rough road and him steering one hand and twiddling his pumps and looking at his gage and just sprinting down the highway. Interviewer: What year was that? Mr. Davis: Oh, that was probably in nineteen hundred and three or four. Interviewer: That was a pretty fast car, wasn‟t it? Mr. Davis: Yeah, the White Steamer was a very good steamer. They could run anywhere. Interviewer: Did you ever have any accidents with the boiler blowing up? Mr. Davis: Oh no. I don‟t think so, I never heard of any. The worst thing about the steamers, and is still the reason that prevents them from being common these days is thefact that it takes a few minutes to get on steam. If you leave it sitting in your garage and you want to start the next morning, you‟ve got to allow, oh I don‟t know what it might be, ten, fifteen minutes to raise enough steam to run out of the barn. Interviewer: Um hm. What kind of an effect on the city did those early cars have? Mr. Davis: Oh, there were, there was just a joke, annoyance for the most part. The steam cars, they weren‟t bad, some of „em did exhaust direct into the air but that was steam that came out then. And, oh they‟d go along down the street leaving a fizzling kind of a steam out behind, was kind of a joke. I know one time, even quite more recent than that we drove east down to Massachusetts, the family places. And we used, I think it was an Oakland then, it was a good gas car. Then it had a maximum speed of about 40 miles an hour, and we drove down and came back, and on those good roads in Massachusetts, I came up behind a steamer, a Stanley Steamer, that was different type, but it was a good car, very good. But they couldn‟t maintain their speed; the boiler wasn‟t quite big enough to keep „em running as fast as they‟d like to run. I mean they might try to run. And I‟d come up behind „em then he‟d really open up and run away from me leaving this big cloud of steam out behind. And then he‟d re-use up about all his steam and perhaps my speed a run thirty-five forty miles and hour and oh, two [or] three miles, I‟d catch up with him again. Then he‟d do the same thing again. Just run away from me like nothing. That steam engine, well that boiler with that steam bottled up in there could run way from practically anything that was going on in those days. Some of the world‟s records for steam were made by the Stanley Steamer; I think a hundred and twenty some miles an hour down on the, well the Florida beaches. Interviewer: Daytona? �13 Mr. Davis: Down there somewhere. Well there, they did the high speed work. It‟s too bad the Stanley went out of business. There‟s quite a story on that. If you go to the library you‟d probably get a book down there called the Story of the Stanley Steamer. I think you‟d enjoy reading it. It‟s really worth while. And well I used to enjoy the Stanley Steamer; I‟d like to see that again. I hear oh that Bill Lear is planning one. I hope he gets it going. I‟m kind of afraid he may not because, well for what I know of Bill Lear, he‟s a kind of, oh a, visionist guy. He can imagine doing this, and he can imagine doing that and that was about it. I knew him, I mean I knew of him because that when I was at Westinghouse, he was in competition with us trying to furnish government equipment. And he didn‟t have enough background and enough sense or enough anything so when it come to making competitive bids, he couldn‟t make „em equal to what we did. But on the other hand he would under bid us „cause he‟d just say we‟ll make it for so much. I don‟t know what he did. I don‟t think he ever made anything, get very many contracts. Sometimes I know we would lose a contract but of course when you bid on government stuff you got to turn in all your specifications. Then of course, they‟re common property. He probably then could pick up these specifications I mean the things we had and build around our specs and do it for a lower price, and we did, but you notice he‟s not in business doing too much of that. I mean he didn‟t stay in it. Then he came here to Grand Rapids and, oh then I think he got other people in conjunction with him who kind of gave some ballast to hold him in control although he used his good ideas and they worked that way. I don‟t know. It used to amuse me and when I was here first there were a number of people I knew moved down there at Lear‟s and, yet every practically every year they‟d change. They couldn‟t stand it apparently, to stay with him. I know one time was a joke told about he had a conference in his organization somewhere, at least this was the story I heard, that he said, that we ought to do something this way; it was rather fantastic and the engineers didn‟t think about much of it. And a couple of days later, he went out into a development lab and he asked one of the fellows, “How‟d you come along with what I was outlining the other day” And the fellow apparently wasn‟t too diplomatic, he says, “You didn‟t expect I was gonna do that fool thing, did you?” He got fired right away. But Bill Lear was accust…, might do things which would be fantastic, which an engineer wouldn‟t do, but he ought to be diplomatic enough to say, “Well look, we‟re thinking about it still.” Or stuff like that He wouldn‟t go and tell the boss, look I wouldn‟t try that fool thing. Interviewer: Yeah, what was your family a prominent family in this city? Mr. Davis: Oh, I don‟t know, you might call „em that. That is Stowe-Davis, and my father being on the Board of Education for some thirty-five years. He went on the board when, oh I was about the fourth grade in school, or fifth grade, somewhere along in there. And I couldn‟t do a thing out of line which any youngster would do. He had a pipeline virtually from the teachers right into him. And he knew about it when I got home that night. He knew about it and I was in for trouble then. So it was a heck of a job, about bad as being a minister‟s son, living with a situation like that. „Course he was on there until, oh, well he died in thirty-five and I think technically he was still on the board when he died. He didn‟t do much the last six months. But anyway he was on the board and all �14 that time, when I graduated from High School And then I went on to College and stuff like that, and of course he didn‟t have to do about the college end of things but in the high school he, well, still had his say. The only time he ever did anything for me, you might call it, was, I was no good in languages. It was, my mother said I had to take some German. We had a German down here who really was German, at least she acted so much like it. And when we‟re taking the courses in German she insisted to learn the rules for German grammar in German. Well just imagine that. I didn‟t know anything about German, how was I going to learn the rules? Well I, I got, passed it off as next to nothing then I got flunked in the course. Well apparently that stirred up my mother enough, so she talked to my father and said look, you better do something about this. Well, the next thing I knew, he had it arranged that I would not continue with German course in high school here. But I would get a tutor. A tutor was, well a professional tutor who‟d had, was recognized, they had some around town, for various subjects, by the public schools and I finished the course by tutoring with her. I got my credit for that year of German, unofficially, but it counted. So when I went to the university I got by with it Interviewer: You mentioned the Bundy family lived in your neighborhood. Mr. Davis: Yeah, the Bundys lived right across the street. Bundy was, I can‟t say positively, but Mrs. Bundy was a son of, well Hollister, I‟ve forgotten his first name. He had a son, Clay Hollister, you may hear about. And then of course he had several sons younger than that. I‟m not so sure but one of „em is you about him there is a Bundy down there in Washington doing something. That might be some of the family, I don‟t know, „cause they‟ve all pulled out of here. But I can‟t quite imagine that crowd going over to the Democratic [?] Interviewer: What, what kind of business was Bundy involved in here in Grand Rapids, do you remember? Mr. Davis: I think he was an attorney. Interviewer: Well, the thing I was going to ask you about your family, if they were prominent, did they a, socialize with those families that lived in the Hill District there? Mr. Davis: Oh, I don‟t know, I didn‟t pay much attention to what they was going on. I don‟t think they had too much contact with „em. I know they used to talk about the Hollisters and the Bundys. My mother used to know Mrs. Hollister, and she used to talk about Clay Hollister And he was known, see he went to the bank with his father, was quite an official in the Old Kent Bank, not the Old Kent but the Old National. And well they were well, they know their way around [?] My mother was quite, well both my father and mother were active in Park Church. My father was a deacon down there for a number of years, which added troubles to me, and my mother was very active among the ladies societies. Oh boy you want to live in those days. You went to church on Sunday morning and before you knew it you had to go to church in the Sunday evening. Want it? No. I didn‟t want it. You went to church. �15 Interviewer: What kind of organizations was your mother involved in? Mr. Davis: Well, a lot of missionary work, she also worked with the LLC, that‟s the Ladies Literary Club down there on what is it, Sheldon or something like that? Interviewer: LaGrave I think. Mr. Davis: Yeah, it‟s down there still. And my aunt was also, lived with us part of the time. She was active in the, I wouldn‟t say active, but I mean took part in the thing. And oh things of, they were doing their share in a mild way, around town. I don‟t mean to say they were very prominent, like being wives of senators or something like that, but they did their stuff around town. They were known. Interviewer: What was living up at, what was living in that neighborhood like as a kid? Mr. Davis: It wasn‟t so crowded as it is now, and you could do lots of things. Of course our big lot, that‟s the thing that amuses me, now you can‟t get youngsters to mow grass. My father says look, you mow that grass, and you mowed that grass. You raked it and did all this kind of stuff. There‟s a lot of things that youngsters don‟t do these days. My very youngest days, the family had a horse. They had, before I was born, had a horse that they kept in what we call a barn now. But then they decided it was too much of a job to keep the horse up there and so they kept the horse at a Livery stable downtown. And when you wanted the horse, you‟d phone down - the phones had been established by then - oh, you‟d call up whose livery stable it was, they had changed around at different times. The one fact [?] place called Albee‟s, Albee‟s Livery Stable, and we used to keep the horse down there and they would bring the horse up and a fellow bringing the horse up would hitch his bike on the back of the buggy and would ride the bike back downtown and after I got to be a little older, perhaps, a middle high school age when we got through with the horse that afternoon or evening you‟d drive, I‟d drive the horse downtown. Then it was up to me to my own shift to get back up the hill. Albee‟s Livery Stable was on Crescent, oh I should say it was about where the Regent Theatre used to be. Do you remember the Regent Theatre? Interviewer: Um hum. Mr. Davis: That was in, about in there. Typical horse barn and stable. They had probably thirty [or] forty horses in there. Well taken care of. Interviewer: Did you spend much time downtown when you were a, young? Mr. Davis: Gee whiz. I was busy doing things around the house and oh playing with other kids around there, and things of that kind. Interviewer: Did you do a lot of tinkering when you were a kid? �16 Mr. Davis: Oh yes, I always tried to do that. See, that‟s one thing that gave me a good start on most youngsters that didn‟t have the advantage. My father was Stowe-Davis Furniture Company, of course that was when plants ran on the steam engine, Every Saturday afternoon, cause they ran Saturdays, except right straight through to five o‟clock Saturdays, not only five days a week, I‟d go down to the engine room, hang around the engine room down there and just hanging around with the engineer, I‟d get accustomed to doing things. Starting at first, well probably just sweeping up a little bit, then doing more things. I know one of the first things that amused me was at night, when they‟d quit, you‟d blow the whistle. And I wasn‟t big enough then to reach up by the whistle cord so I‟d take the stool over and stand that on that by the wall when the whistle cords came down and he‟d signal to me and I‟d pull the cord and blow the whistle. You don‟t hear whistles these days. I don‟t know as there‟s hardly one in town. But it used to be quite a thing, At five o‟clock or six o‟clock, the whistles would blow here in Grand Rapids from various power plants. Now they got practically no plants that got a whistle. That was quite an interesting thing and then New Year‟s Eve or New Year‟s Night you might call it, there‟d be quite a, I wouldn‟t say a ceremony, but nearly every plant that had a whistle would blow it at midnight. No, I enjoyed my work at the factory. I don‟t call it work; I just hung around over there. Oh but I did have to do work one time. He got, I don‟t know if you‟ve ever been in a furniture factory much, you know they have planers, with plane oh surface boards, like this, big wide ones long, tops of tables and oh things like that and oh, I probably was fourteen maybe. He says, “You‟d better go to work” and so he says. One of the jobs in the factory that I got was tending the planer. That is the fellow runs the planer, he puts the boards in the front there and runs through the planer then they come out the back side and you had to pick these things up. I mean they, they just come through, they don‟t let „em fall on the floor, that‟s part of the job. And put „em on a hand truck where they can be carried away and do something else with them. And a, so he says, “You‟re gonna work over there this summer.” And the superintendent put me to tend the planer. The amusing part about it was, I mean that showing how things have changed, they had a regular kid who did it. I don‟t know what they did with him when I was, when they gave me a job of doing it, during the summer, but anyway, he was around there. Once or twice they had him, when they had some very heavy tops in there, they had him help me pile these big heavy tops on a truck to get them away. Now when I say truck, I mean one of these trucks, you know, industrial, not a power driven truck. But the thing I think is humorous about it was that he says, “Well we‟ll pay you eight cents an hour.” He says, “I can‟t pay you as much as the regular guy. That wouldn‟t be right for the boss‟s son to have a salary equal to a regular guy. He was getting I think twelve cents an hour. But we‟ll give you eight cents an hour.” So I worked all that summer for eight cents an hour. Interviewer: Was that, was eight, what, the guy that was working for twelve cents an hour, he was working at what, a ten hour day? Mr. Davis: I suppose so. Interviewer: Was that, I mean could you live fairly well on that? �17 Mr. Davis: Well he was just a kid in high school, just I mean in school, like I was He wasn‟t living, I mean his family probably took care of him. I mean wasn‟t, oh the regular rates weren‟t very high, no I should say not. Well, I can remember my father used to talk about some of the higher paid men over there make sixty cents an hour. That was good pay for those days. Sixty cents an hour. We used to say a penny a minute. The kids, the rest of „em got, oh probably after they got along, thirty-five, forty cents an hour. It wasn‟t very much, but they used to live, and be quite happy I would say. Well I got eight cents an hour. Interviewer: Where did the furniture factories get their workers? Mr. Davis: Oh just all around town. Interviewer: Was, as I understand a lot of Dutch … Mr. Davis: Yeah, that‟s right. Oh yeah, most of the factory men were Dutch. Interviewer: Do you know the reason why so many Dutch people migrated to Grand Rapids? Mr. Davis: No, I don‟t know Interviewer: Why they chose this town? Mr. Davis: I often wondered. They just came in here. Well why‟d the Poles come in here? They, came in here too. I don‟t know. They just migrated West and some of „em stopped here. Interviewer: Where did your family come from, Massachusetts, did you say? Mr. Davis: No, Vermont. But even a generation or two before them they came out of Massachusetts and so on. Interviewer: Why did your father come to Grand Rapids? Mr. Davis: Well, I don‟t know exactly. One story I heard was that my mother didn‟t like living in Massachusetts. It was, they were then living down near Boston, it‟s kind of a sea-coast atmosphere. And she said the, at least the story I heard was that she told me the general sea coast attitude and moisture and all that kind of stuff was tough on her throat. She didn‟t like it. And so next, what she told me was she says they decided they‟d go West and, oh one story I heard was that they thought of once about Omaha. But she did have a brother who‟d already got into business in Detroit. There was no automobile business then. That was just business. And he I think encouraged them to come to Grand Ra.., come to Michigan and, oh Michigan was only probably, I mean Grand Rapids was only about seventy thousand or something like that. And they took over, I mean they bought in then. They boarded downtown here, I used to joke about, it was quite a fancy �18 boarding house you might call it that. It‟s where the police station used to be. Do you remember where the police station used to be on the, Ottawa Street down here on the corner of Ottawa and Crescent? Alright, about a house or two up from there, of course the police station wasn‟t there then, was where this boarding was. And they lived there a year or so while he was looking around the town and getting started at Stowe-Davis and stuff of that kind. I used to tell her, yeah, they kept you right close to the police station, didn‟t they? And well she used to get kind of aggravated about that but anyway, it was downtown then, is still, I think it was quite a place. Well, you can see kind of a remnants of it, you know what is it Bostwick Street, the one that goes up from oh, past the front of the Butterworth hospital? You know on Bostwick Street between Crescent and Lyon, there‟re a couple of old brick buildings in there. They used to be more of those downtown. They were boarding houses, I mean you could live in that. Well it was quite a thing. People in Boston lived in, I wouldn‟t say boarding houses, I mean they lived in, houses which were built right along in rows. Not from what you call those row houses these days, but I mean, there‟d be individual units in a series of perhaps four or five houses, usually built of brick, anyway pretty well put together. And you could live in there and you didn‟t have the responsibility of a lot of stuff. It was good living I guess, for those days. I don‟t think I‟d like it now but I mean that‟s what people did. Interviewer: Was there very much crime in the city, when you were growing up? Mr. Davis: Oh, I don‟t know about that. I never had any experience with it. I guess about the way crimes were was on Halloween night us young fellows used to go out and do out stuff of dumping garbage cans over and a few things of that kind but I don‟t suppose you‟d call that crime. No, Grand Rapids I was satisfied? was a model city, if you might call it that. But I suppose there must have been the usual stuff going on. But then it was I would say a safe city. Nowadays you won‟t dare go out on certain streets after dark. Then you could walk or drive anywhere. I wouldn‟t trust… I mean the city isn‟t nearly as good as it used to be in those days. I don‟t know what they‟re gonna do with the city now. It isn‟t safe. Well… INDEX A C Albee’s Livery Stable · 16 Central High School · 10 B D Barnard, Alice · 1 Bell Telephone Company · 5 Boelens, Inspector · 10 Bundy family · 1, 15 Butterworth hospital · 7, 19 Davis Technical (school) · 3 Davis, George A. · 1 E Engineers’ Club · 6 �19 H P Hollister family · 1, 15 Hollister, Clay · 15 Hunting family · 2 Hunting, David · 2 Hunting, Edgar · 2 Pantlind Hotel · 1, 2 Park Congregational Church · 15 Pike, Charles W. · 1 R K Regent Theatre · 16 Kent County Savings Bank · 1 S L Ladies Literary Club · 15 Lake Michigan water · 7 Lamoreaux family · 1 Lear, Bill · 13, 14 Lyon Street Hill Line (streetcar) · 4 Stanley Steamer · 13 Steelcase Company · 2 Stowe family · 2 Stowe, L. C. · 2 Stowe-Davis Furniture Company · 2, 14, 16, 19 T M Taggart, Ganson · 2 Massachusetts Institute of Technology · 3 McKay, Frank · 6 U O Old Kent Bank · 1, 2, 15 Old National Bank · 1, 15 University of Michigan · 3 W White Steamer · 12 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/132e520c7707c8a5c9a353930e1007cb.mp3 b53a818c8a514af2a475310f9e427223 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_25-26Davis Title A name given to the resource Davis, Robert Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Davis, Robert Description An account of the resource Robert Davis worked as an engineer for Westinghouse and was a professor of engineering. Mr. Davis had degrees from Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) and the University of Michigan. He was active in the public schools and was a local historian. He died December 21, 1979. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c3a049d0e33c849ec1c1a34e316ea311.pdf 83c691670db4a70b95058e576585d971 PDF Text Text 1 Grand Valley State University Special Collections Kent County Oral History collections, RHC-23 C. Bennett Ainsworth S. P. Bennett Fuel and Ice Company Interviewed on October 1, 1971 Edited and indexed by Don Bryant, 2010 – bryant@wellswooster.com Tape #24 (31:59) Biographical Information Calvin Bennett Ainsworth was born 3 December 1890 in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Calvin Bennett Ainsworth married Agnes M. Warnick on 20 March 1922. He was married to Emily L. Hine about 1926. He died 6 October 1974 leaving a widow, Florence J. He is buried at Oak Hill Cemetery in Grand Rapids. C. Bennett was the son of Arthur Sardius Ainsworth and Ella Elizabeth Innes who were married 18 August 1887 in Grand Rapids. Arthur was born about July 1862 in Rome, Henry County, Iowa the son of Calvin and Harriet (Fairchild) Ainsworth. He died in Grand Rapids in January 1950. The mother, Ella Innes was born 18 March 1861 in Pueblo, Colorado, the daughter of William and Elizabeth (Brennan) Innes. Ella died in Grand Rapids 11 April 1916. As his second wife, Arthur married Amye Firth on 5 October 1918. Amye died in Grand Rapids in 1940. Interments in Oak Hill Cemetery in Grand Rapids. ___________ Interviewer: Were you born in Grand Rapids? Mr. Ainsworth: Yes, yes I was. I was born in Grand Rapids. I don‟t remember the house because I was too young, moved away from there as a small boy or as an infant probably. It was on Washington and we moved away from there to James Street, two fifty-four James. And that is where I grew up-my early, early days of my life. In fact I… after I left college, my family moved to five forty-nine South College, and we lived there and sold that house to the Park Congregational Church. It‟s kind of unusual because I had another house on Madison. I sold that to the church-the colored church and Mayor Parks lives there now. He‟s a minister of this church and also the mayor of the city-a very nice house. Well, then I moved out here three years ago and been living here ever since. I can remember many of the old things about the city. I can remember Cherry Street, which I was kind of close to on James, being paved with blocks-not blocks- they‟re some circle pieces of wood made from a tree. They‟re about six inches deep and maybe a foot in diameter or so, depending on the tree that was cut. This was packed in with gravel, as I remember, and then… and then covered with tar. And that was a street. And Lower Monroe was a… had the same sort of a pavement and, I don‟t know, maybe other streets were paved that way but I can remember those. And when it… when they wanted to do away with the street and put asphalt or cement in, they tore it up and anybody who �2 wanted any of these blocks of wood would get them free and they made good firewood because they were certainly well-seasoned and they had some kind of oil or tar in them. Interviewer: When was, when was that street torn up? Mr. Ainsworth: Well, I don‟t know but I would guess, let‟s see I can only guess from my age, probably I was twelve or thirteen and that would make it nineteen hundred and two or three-around in there. Interviewer: What kind of a street did they put down after that? Mr. Ainsworth: Well, I‟m not sure. I think it was probably brick or tar some kind of… it was an improvement on the wood street. Although a street made of wood like that was awfully nice for the horses, and they had a lot of horses in those days. Milk trucks and people were going around in, in vehicles hauled by horses and it‟s a lot better for them than the paved street. Interviewer: Why, why is that? Mr. Ainsworth: Well, on account of their hoofs. I was always taught that you shouldn‟t run a horse on a hard paved street if you could avoid it. It‟s hard on the shoes and on their legs. It‟s so hard whereas the wooden pavement would take up some of the shock and it‟d be a lot better. I also remember about the lighting system in Grand Rapids in … I think that would be about the same period. We had steel towers and there were quite… oh, I would say they were t- at the base anyway, they were probably twelve, fifteen feet in diameter and they rose to maybe, oh I‟m just guessing but I would say, four to five hundred feet. And they had several lights up there that were made with carbon- carbon sticks they looked like. And they‟d have to replace these every once in a while and they would throw them down to the ground below and we boys would pick them up and use them in place of crayons-except they made a black mark instead of a white mark. But they tore that… I don‟t know when they tore those down and replaced them but, at that time, it was a good lighting system although I don‟t think it ever was quite as good as they claimed it would be. You would be able to read a newspaper anywhere in the citythe city then being probably one-fifth the size it is now. I remember at one time there was a flock of geese that came either going north or south I don‟t know which, but there was a fog and they flew into this…one of these towers and I think it was on the corner of Paris and Logan. I‟m not sure of that, but anyway, the… it killed several of the geese and they were dead at the bottom of the tower and they were there for the grabs-anybody that wanted them could have them. I don‟t know, maybe, that‟s about all I can think of. Interviewer: These towers… were the towers kind of ringing the city or… Mr. Ainsworth: Well, they were spaced in logical places so that they would distribute the light throughout pretty well. But I don‟t think it was nearly as good a system as it is now and they claimed a lot more than they claim now. But we had a lot of trees and these lights were way up and the trees would shadow them and make dark places so I‟m sure �3 they would have left them up until now if they were practical. But they‟re gone and, of course, they have a different system of… we don‟t have any carbon lights, maybe you can remember those. They kind of fizz once in a while. They‟d make quite a loud singing sound. There was a spark going between the carbons is what it was-that made that noise. Interviewer: Well, when you were growing up on James Street, was that on the outskirts of the city? Mr. Ainsworth: No, but Eastern Avenue was pretty well on the outskirts. I suppose it was named Eastern because it was the east, more or less, the eastern limits of the city. And I remember just beyond there on Wealthy, they used to have a big open space there. That would be from Eastern east of there and well east there-pretty close to Diamond. Where Diamond is now was all open and they use to have the circus that came to town would put up tents there. There was plenty of room for them. It was… it was all open territory. Interviewer: Would the shows be there? Mr. Ainsworth: Yeah, the shows-they put the big tent there and the show would be there. Interviewer: How would, how would people get out to the circus if it was on the outskirts of town? Mr. Ainsworth: Well, they had streetcars, I suppose. I know… I know they did because they had streetcars running out to Reeds Lake. As a boy, I use to go out to Reeds Lake in the summer and my mother would put up a sandwich or two and some milk and then we‟d go out to Rose‟s swimming beach and take our lunch and we‟d stay in the water all day long-swim all morning and afternoon. The water was clean and clear. And then in the winter, we use to do the same thing only we‟d take our skates out and they cleared a space out there and we were in…I can‟t tell you the name of it, but it was a big open saloon, that‟s what it was and a couple of stoves in there, these pot-bellied stoves and we‟d get cold and come in there and we‟d…I think we had our lunch in there. They let us have our lunch there. I can‟t remember much about it being a bar but I‟m pretty sure that was what it was. And we‟d put up our… put our feet up against this iron stove with our skates on, you know, and it would thaw them out and get warm then go back out and skate. It was quite a trek out there for us, either bicycle or streetcar. So you wouldn‟t go out there for just a little while, you go out there for the whole day-the entire day. I remember shooting squirrels right down by Fisk Lake and around in there. It was beginning to be a little inhabited there and this-right here where I am used to be a track here. Mr. Bonnell, as I recall, had some horses, and he had a track which he would run „em around here. Jefferson Avenue was-in the winter- was a place I think they blocked it off and some of the rich people with horses and sleighs would have races down there. They raced down Jefferson Avenue. Interviewer: Did you ever go down to see them? �4 Mr. Ainsworth: I don‟t think I did. I remember hearing about it, but I wasn‟t particularly interested. But on Washington Street they used to block that off for us kids and we‟d start at Madison with bobsleds and slide down there and then walk back up. We use to do that a lot. I can‟t remember those horse races at all, seeing one. I can remember hearin‟ „em, talking about them though. I‟m sure they had them. Interviewer: Did you go to school in Grand Rapids? Mr. Ainsworth: Yes, I graduated from Central High School in nineteen-ten. That was the last year of the old high school. Then there was the new one which I guess is the one standing now-was built in, I think the class of eleven [1911] got into that school. I was the last one there and… I graduated in nineteen-ten and remember hearing I was the last class in the school. Interviewer: Did everybody in those days graduate from Central? Mr. Ainsworth: I think they did. I don‟t think we had another high school. Interviewer: Another four year school? Mr. Ainsworth: No, I don‟t believe we did. Of course, you got how many now-three, four…? Interviewer: Well, there‟s Creston, Union, Central, Ottawa Hills-I guess they‟ve got four, plus the Catholic High School. Mr. Ainsworth: Well, I guess there weren‟t a lot of kids never went to high school, you know, in those days. I don‟t suppose over half of them went. And so, of course, the city was so much smaller so that you didn‟t need as many. Interviewer: Who were the kids that went onto high school and who were the ones that didn‟t? Mr. Ainsworth: Well, some of them had to go to work and they didn‟t. Some of „em just weren‟t interested. There wasn‟t the importance put on an education in those days as it is today. So… and the world wasn‟t as sophisticated. I mean you… you have to have an education to run these machines now and the computers and everything. Most every kind of work there is takes a good deal of education. In those days, we didn‟t have those and the work that was open for you didn‟t require it so you just didn‟t spend the time and money on it. I went over to the University of Michigan and it seemed to me there were nine thousand there then and they thought that was a big, big school. My granddaughter is going over here to Central Michigan at Mt. Pleasant, yeah, Mt. Pleasant. And I think she said there were something like twelve, fourteen thousand, and they, they consider that a small school now. I never, I really never heard if it until she went there. And yet that‟s �5 much bigger than the University of Michigan was in those days. And the University of Michigan was-and is today-well recognized as a big and good college. Interviewer: What… what kind of business were you in in Grand Rapids? Mr. Ainsworth: Well, I was in the coal business-the Bennett Fuel Company. My father worked there first and got to own the company, and then I took it over when I came back from college and I ran it until sixteen years ago when I retired. It‟s about that time gas kept came in and there‟s very little coal sold in the city now, very little. Even the industries are not buying it because of the smoke that they‟re creating. So, it‟s been hit very hard but my son is running the company as best he can and he‟s gone into oil… selling oil along with coal for heating and other purposes. So he‟s struggling along with it still in the city. It‟s over-it‟s about ninety-eight years old now. It‟s almost a hundred years old-the company is. And we had an interesting thing about that. We were on the corner of Fulton and Ottawa. I think we were there for eighty-eight years and the property was owned by the Pennsylvania Railroad. We rented it from them and we rented it for eighty-eight years and all we had was month-to-month lease. The railroads are a little different than other people. If you ship over their lines, they won‟t sell to you and they give you cheap rent. They won‟t sell to you because they want to hold you on their… they want to have something over your head. It‟s to make you stay there and ship over their road. And on the other hand, they give you very, very reasonable rent. In fact, they‟d give it to you for nothing if they could but the Interstate Commerce Commission won‟t let them do that. They have to charge at least, as I understand it, six percent the valuation, assessed valuation of the property. But that‟s all they charged. Well, I think that‟s all they charged us. Now, now that the railroads are having a hard time, maybe, they‟re… they‟ll get into the more equitable rent. Interviewer: Well, if people were burning… would that be the predominant fuel in homes-coal? Mr. Ainsworth: Yes, it was up to about nineteen forty, I‟d say. nineteen forty then gas started coming in, oil, there was, some oil in… there was some gas but not anything like what it is now. Though I would say an eighty percent or eighty-five percent of the heat was generated from coal at that time. And there were over a hundred coal dealers in this city at one time-at least a hundred licenses taken out. Now there is just our own, that‟s the only one left. And we‟re… we just can‟t, I don‟t know how he can live off what he gets there. There‟s just nobody‟s burning coal. I don‟t burn it myself …and fewer every year. But he‟s got little other outlets that, like oil, trying to go into the fertilizing business, too. Doing a little of that he can, that goes a very little investment necessary if you have oil trucks, you can just clean „m out, put the water and the chemical in there and then you got your own pump, your spray and the whole thing so all throughout the country quite a few coal yards have gone into fertilizing by liquid spraying. Interviewer: Well, if most of the homes were burning coal, was there… was there much smog or smoke in the city? �6 Mr. Ainsworth: Yes, there was, there was no complaint about it but there was at times. I know that in the winter you get a nice clean fall of snow and all, everything would be just as white and pure and clean as it could be in the morning maybe, and then by the next morning you‟d see these globs of soot around. And the snow would get real dirty mostly from… of course, it gets dirty now but it‟s largely from coal. It seems to me as though the air should be much cleaner now than it used to be due to the fact that there‟s no coal used but, of course, there weren‟t very many automobiles in those days and they say they‟re responsible for 60% of the pollution-air pollution. So maybe we got a worse victim in the car than it was in coal. I don‟t think coal will ever come back as a home heating. Interviewer: Well what, what, how would these homes that were heated on coal, what was the operation involved in keeping your house warm. Mr. Ainsworth: Well, at first it was really just hand fired. You just didn‟t… you never had a fire furnace with coal? You didn‟t? Interviewer: Well, I did at my parents‟ cottage at one time. But… Mr. Ainsworth: Well, it‟s merely shovel in the coal usually in the morning and set your drafts and you‟d get over-runs and under-runs and, it was good, good and cold you couldn‟t keep the house at an even temperature-or it was very difficult to. Then they had the… they would get an automatic thermostat for the furnace and it was much better than without one. It would open and close the draft itself. When the temperature went over a certain degree, it would drop the draft so that the fire would die down and when it got cold it would be the reverse. And then… then they introduced the stoker and the stoker is much cleaner burning. It burns fuel much cleaner than the hand fired by means of a screw it pushes the coal in so that the fire is fed from below and as that fresh coal comes in from below, it gets hot and it begins to release its volatile matter as smoke. The smoke has to go through the bed of flames and it gets burned off. So it burned the coal more efficiently and cleanly-but it isn‟t. I hate to say it as a coal man, but it isn‟t as clean as the gas or oil. But, of course, you‟re just practically unconscious of the furnace and then I… just, your house is held at seventy-two degrees with either coal or oil. So you‟re unconscious of it. Interviewer: Well in other words, before they developed the thermostat, it was pretty difficult keeping your house at an even temperature. Mr. Ainsworth: Yeah. You had a little dial up here that you could operate around and it had a chain on it and the chain would close or open the drafts down below. So if it gets cold, well, you walk over to this operator and just turn it one way or the other and it would adjust the drafts instead of having to go down below to do anything. You boys missed a lot of hard work. Interviewer: Well were there, when people were burning coal in their houses, were there any coal strikes? �7 Mr. Ainsworth: Yes, I can remember one but they- the contracts were all written so they expired, I think, on April first. And we did have coal strikes but the season was pretty well along for one thing and we could load up on another thing and I remember one year they had a strike and they had this coal… they loaded cars. Of course, the miner was anxious to get all the money he could so he was trying to put in all the time he could and some-so most of „em were on a tonnage basis so the more tons you got out the more you got paid. And he was trying to build up a nest egg to protect him against the strike. So they were trying to get a lot of coal out in shipping and we‟d load up and they‟d have sometimes… there‟s every miner had maybe a hundred cars loaded with coal and they would… all during April they would ship that to you. And I can‟t remember any time when, oh yes, I did too, was that a strike? There was one time here we were in real bad shape one winter. We…we had the supply turned over to the city. I think that was… that must have been a strike. I remember George Welsh was mayor, I believe, at that time or city commissioner and the city confiscated all the coal there was in the city. I mean they came to your yards and now, “You cannot deliver any coal except on an order from the city.” And then the people had to go to the city hall and declare their need of coal and they‟d get a certificate and they… we‟d come down and deliver them a ton. We did have quite a serious shortage one year, I can remember. Interviewer: Do you remember what year that was? Mr. Ainsworth: No, I can‟t. No, I can‟t. I just have to guess it was the late thirties or in the forties. We did have quite a serious shortage at that time, but I don‟t think anybody froze. I remember greenhouses got preference, hospitals got preference and some institutions that were vital were… got the first chance. There were… there always… when they have a strike, there‟s always a few miners at work-they‟re not unionized so there‟s a trickling of coal that comes out always, even in spite of a strike. There‟s a strike on right now, isn‟t there? I know that their contract expired last night at midnight. Interviewer: Oh, I don‟t know about this. Mr. Ainsworth: I, I didn‟t turn it on there… the television this morning… and so I don‟t know what happened. Interviewer: Was the Grand River used for anything when you were a kid? Mr. Ainsworth: I can‟t remember any of those boats going up and down. I… I can remember seeing pictures of the boats and I think there were some boats there and they docked right down there by Fulton Street, but I can‟t remember very much about them but I‟ve seen pictures. I think maybe most of my memory of that is from pictures rather than from the actual boats although I can remember a very bad flood we had one year. I was only a kid. Gosh, I don‟t know. It was probably nineteen-I‟m guessing again but probably in nineteen-let‟s see, probably nineteen hundred and five or six… around in there. I remember the… in the Pantlind Hotel in the barber shop-in the basement-they, they had water right up to… almost to the ceiling. And they used to have a mark there �8 and then years afterwards they‟d come in and say, well, right up there is where the water was on such and such a date. And the west side was quite badly flooded. There was some water over there. Interviewer: What did… what did happen? Why were there such serious floods then and not now? Mr. Ainsworth: Well, if you don‟t, there was no wall there at that time and it was the year in which we had a lot of snow and it melted all fast. Maybe even today it comes up pretty high. We have walls of protection but if you get a lot of snow and then you get a warm rain with this two or three feet of snow on the ground, it‟s just running off everywhere, just in rivers. All over the country, every tributary is feeding into Grand River and it goes way up and it depends on the condition at the time and at that year. We were not protected as well as we are now and we had a big run-off of snow and water. Interviewer: You said you mentioned that your family had a home down on South College, five forty-nine South College? Mr. Ainsworth: Yes. Interviewer: Did you grow up or did you spend any time… Mr. Ainsworth: Well, I spent a few years there, yes. Most of my time was spent on James Street. Then they moved out to eighteen thirty-nine Lake Drive, but then I was married and I didn‟t live at eighteen thirty-nine Lake Drive. They kept going east as most of us do-east or out in the outskirts. Interviewer: What kind of a neighborhood was James Street, what kind of people lived there? Mr. Ainsworth: Well, there were colored people on the south side of Wealthy and they used to have what we called the Wealthies and the Cherries. I belonged to Cherry Street and most of the Wealthies were the people on the Wealthy side. South of Wealthy were colored… were half, about half-colored and half white at that time. And we used to have snowball fights and so forth. At that time was more or less a pleasant relationship. There was rivalry and then sometimes it resulted in bloody noses and so forth but that was the extent of it. But we… we were… we were divided even then in those days between… and Wealthy Avenue divided us off. And we got our names from the…from the two streets, Wealthy and Cherry. Interviewer: Did they go to the same school? Mr. Ainsworth: Yeah, we went to the same school. It‟s there now, Henry Street School. It runs from Henry over through to James and just a little bit south of Wealthy. It seems to me… I know it‟s there yet, isn‟t it? �9 Interviewer: Henry School? I think so, yeah. Yeah, I‟m sure it‟s there. Did, well… did the… the Negroes and the whites get along alright together? Mr. Ainsworth: In school we did. I can‟t remember anything… any difference or having problems or even giving it a moment‟s thought. We had no serious trouble, we accepted each other as we were and we didn‟t have a football team or baseball team I don‟t think…at least I know I didn‟t-wasn‟t in it. But I had some friends. I can remember two or three of „em down there and later they got to be waiters at the Pantlind Hotel and I used to get pretty good service over at the Pantlind Hotel. The boys would… quite a few of them became waiters in various places. Do you have this thing going? Is anybody going to listen to all this? Interviewer: Oh, yeah. Mr. Ainsworth: Are they? Interviewer: Yeah, I think so. INDEX A I Ainsworth, Arthur Sardius (Father) · 5 Interstate Commerce Commission · 5 B M Bennett Fuel Company · 5 Bonnell, Mr. · 3 Mayor Parks · 1 C P Pantlind Hotel · 8, 9 Central High School · 4 Central Michigan · 4 R F Reeds Lake · 3 Fisk Lake · 3 U G University of Michigan · 4 Grand River · 7, 8 W H Henry Street School · 9 Welsh, George · 7 �10 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8c09728a2dc129661aa8a36f3e572527.mp3 a44bf0baae9471a406f703cd9bd0f7eb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Grand Rapids Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Local histories Memoirs Michigan--History Oral histories (document genre) Description An account of the resource Taped and transcribed interviews conducted in the early 1970s primarily of the children and grandchildren of many of the founders of Grand Rapids, Michigan; many of whom were residents of the Heritage Hill neighborhood. Interviews were collected to develop a significant collection of oral resources that would supplement other primary and secondary local history materials. Initially funded as a private project, Grand Valley State College (now University) assumed responsibility for continuing the project until 1977. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Various Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/452">Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf; audio/mp3 Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text; Sound Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1971 - 1977 Sound A resource primarily intended to be heard. Examples include a music playback file format, an audio compact disc, and recorded speech or sounds. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-23_24Ainsworth Title A name given to the resource Ainsworth, C. Bennett Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ainsworth, C. Bennett Description An account of the resource C. Bennett Ainsworth was born in Grand Rapids on December 3, 1890. He graduated from Central High School in 1910, and attended the University of Michigan. He was the owner of Bennett Fuel Co. He died October 7, 1974. Subject The topic of the resource Michigan--History Local histories Memoirs Oral histories (document genre) Grand Rapids (Mich.) Personal narratives Heritage Hill (Grand Rapids, Mich.) Grand Valley State University Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Sound Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf audio/mp3 Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Rapids oral history collection (RHC-23) Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1971 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives