796 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c322c0b2e137473efb65bd982632f657.pdf cf118a48fc963659b6dd0de1c1bdd75e PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Lucia Rios Interviewers: Bethanie Billing Supervising Faculty: Liberal Arts Department Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/20/2012 Runtime: 01:35:10 Biography and Description Lucia Rios discusses her experiences with Spina Bifida and life in western Michigan. Transcript Bethanie: Ok, so my name is Bethanie Billing and I am here today February, Monday, February 20th, 2012 with Lucia Rios at Grand Valley State University downtown campus – Pew Campus. We are here today to talk about your experiences with civil rights in Western Michigan and now I’m going to read you the Oral History release form. Speaking Out: Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories. I, in your case Lucia Rios, hereby agree to participate in an interview in connection with the Oral History Project known as Speaking Out: Western Michigan’s Civil Right Histories at Grand Valley State University. I understand that the purpose of this project is to collect audio recorded oral histories as well as selected related documentary materials such as photographs and manuscripts from those knowledgeable about civil rights and civil rights activism in Western Michigan with the goal of preserving these materials and making them available for teaching and research. This may include publication in print, multimedia programs such as radio and television and the WWW among others. I understand that I may be identified by name subject to my consent. I may also be identified by name in any transcript whether verbatim or edited of such interviews subject to my consent. If I choose to remain anonymous, I know that audio recordings of my interview will be closed to use. My name will not appear in the transcript or reference to any material used in the interview. I know that in the case of choosing to remain anonymous, my interview will only be identified by an internal speaking out project tracking number. I understand the interview will take approximately two hours and that I can withdraw from the Page 1 �project without prejudice prior to the execution and delivery of this release form. In the event that I withdraw from the interview, any recordings made of the interview will either be given to me or destroyed and no transcript will be made of the interview. I understand that a photograph of me may be taken or borrowed for duplication and that if I withdraw from the project the photograph will be given to me and any copies made for the project will be destroyed. I understand that upon completion of the interview, subject to all of the other terms and conditions of this agreement, GVSU shall own the copyrights to this work and will be able to use it any manner it chooses including but not limited to use by researchers and students in presentations and publications but that I shall be given a perpetual license to use my contribution in any manner or any medium as long as I notify GVSU prior to such use. I understand that any restrictions as to the use of portions of the interview indicated by me will be edited out of the final copy of the transcript. I understand that upon the completion of this interview and signing the release, the recordings, photographs, and one copy of the transcript will be kept in Grand Valley State University’s Libraries Special Collections in Allendale, Michigan. If I have questions about the research project or procedures I know that I can contact Dr. Melanie Schellweis in the department of Liberal Studies, 227 Lake Ontario Hall, Grand Valley State University, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI 49404. Phone number (616) 331-0859 or via e-mail at shellm@gvsu.edu and then umm… you can choose to initial where you would like if you agree to be identified by name in any transcript or in reference to any information contained in this interview or you wish to remain anonymous in any transcript or reference to any information contained in this interview. Bethanie: Alright. So then we have to date them and sign them and then umm, we’d also like your address and phone number and then umm we’ll sign our names or I’ll sign my name. Lucia Rios: Ok. (laughs) Ryan: Also, just so you know the interview might not last the full two hours. Lucia Rios: Ok. Ryan: Our teacher said anywhere between 60 minutes to 90 minutes. Bethanie: However long we feel comfortable or you had a chance to tell us your story. Lucia Rios: Ok. Do I sign these too? Bethanie: Yes, please and then can you also sign this one because errr… Page 2 �Lucia Rios: Do you want me to put all the information down again? Bethanie: Umm, I think if you just sign yours and then I’ll and then your name and then I’ll sign my name because you get to take that copy with you. Lucia Rios: Ok. Bethanie: So that you know what you agreed to. (Laughing) Ryan: Plus you know where you live. (Laughing) Bethanie: Yeah. Lucia Rios: Yeah, I know. Ok. (silence, signing papers) Bethanie: Ok. So, ummm, do you want to start off giving us some background information about you like… Lucia Rios: Yeah. Bethanie: When you were born and where you were raised and… Lucia Rios: Ok. Bethanie: What it was like… Lucia Rios: Ok. (Laughing) Umm, well my name is Lucia Rios and I was born on March 26th, 1980 so I’m a little bit older than you guys (laughing) and I was actually born and raised in Holland, Michigan. And so umm, my parents are both Mexicans, American raised. My dad was born in Mexico but my mom was born in Indiana but my dad ended up becoming a U.S. citizen when he was, when he was I think younger. So then he moved here when he was like 6 so that’s kind of that. So umm, but I actually am the 3rd of 4 children. So I have two older sisters and then a younger brother and we are all two years apart so my mom and dad were very… (laughing) Julie: Consistent. Page 3 �Lucia Rios: (laughing) Consistent, yeah. So umm, but actually I’m the only one in my family, in my immediate family that has a significant disability so I was born with what’s called spina bifida Julie: Ok. Lucia Rios: And you’ve probably heard of it because it’s actually, umm, one of the most common birth defects. Umm, that’s been around. I mean, that’s very common so umm, it is umm, can be so severe that babies die when they are born and or but it can be very umm, not as severe where people don’t even notice it right away maybe until later on in life, I mean. You know it can be to the effect of where a baby can’t walk to people can walk but maybe they have some of the effects of the spina bifida. So, at one point while I was forming in my mom’s womb umm, my spinal cord opened up and so that was, everything was affected because of that. Umm, but luckily, my spinal cord closed where as some babies are born with open spines so they may have to have surgery right away and that type of thing. So I am pretty fortunate, actually. Umm, because I, I do use a wheel chair and I use crutches but ummm, I have a lot of mobility and I mean I wasn’t paralyzed and I’ve never had surgery on my back which a lot of children have and part of what’s spina bifida is a common thing is that babies are born with hydrocephalis, which is water on the brian. And so, ummm… Julie: Right. Lucia Rios: So I didn’t have to worry about that. I was not born with that. So I, I mean people kind of think that it’s funny when I say, “I’m actually pretty fortunate” because I am. I mean, it could have been a lot worse. Umm, but ummm, yeah. So I was born and my mom did not know until I was born. It’s funny because she says that she knew something was different because she said that you know how when babies are in the womb they kick… Ryan: Right. Lucia Rios: And I wouldn’t kick. I would just more like swim, it was like swimming… (Laughter) she could feel me swimming in there but I wasn’t like kicking. And so, but the doctors were like, “No, no. It’s ok. It’s ok.” Calm her down. But when I was born you know, she said that, you know, right away she knew something was wrong because umm, it was a long time, the birth. And then, the doctors she just kind of said, swarmed in like, “Ahhhh” you know and so you know, I was born with broken hips and my Page 4 �legs were kind of messed up (laughter) so I did have to have surgery on my legs when I was older though, not right away when I was a baby. So, ummm, but right away my mom just treated me like I was just a quote un-quote normal child. Ummm, but you know, she was, from the moment that I was born she already got a lot of people saying well she’s not gonna live, ummm, we can’t bring her into the room because she’s going to upset the other mothers who just had their babies. You know, things like that so right away she was, ummm, had to deal with the attitudes that people had against her child who was just a baby. Julie: Mmmhhmmm. Lucia Rios: Ummm, and so and against her for having the baby. So, umm, but you know, the doctors said, you know, you can put her in a home, you can leave her, and this is back in 1980 so it’s not like it was like the 60’s or the 50’s, you know. (mumbling in background) Lucia Rios: I was actually surprised that that was still going on. Umm, but you know, she took me home and just kind of raised me. So, ummm, but they were worried when my brother was born that he would have spina bifida as well but he turned out healthy, you know. And so, now they tell a lot of people eat folic acid. Take things with folic acid because they think that that might help prevent it. And I don’t know if it does. My mom says that she, she had a lot of foods with folic acid but you know it still ended up that way. Umm, so I think it is just kind of, I personally believe that it was, it was an event that happened and really it’s no one’s fault. Julie: Mmmhhmmm. Lucia Rios: I never blamed my mom. And I mean, I blamed God sometimes but that was sometimes when I was in college. (Laughter) But as far as, you know, it’s kind of something that happens so ummm, but you know that, they, they do try to bring more awareness about spina bifida but ummm, you know they don’t know if it’s genetic or not. Because like I said, no one in my family has it. The only other person in my family with a disability is more of a mental, well, cognitive disability. Ryan: Yeah. Page 5 �Lucia Rios: My aunt has a pretty significant, she’s more lower functioning. Umm, but with my dad’s side of the family they kind of put her in a home right away. So it was really interesting how that side of the family was like, “well, let’s just put it away” Julie: Yeah. Lucia Rios: And then, you know… Julie: Kind of sweep it under the rug. Lucia Rios: Yeah, sweep it under the rug. It was kind of like, and that was, well she was a lot older than me so that was back you know when you would expect that. So, but ummm, anyway, yeah, I mean I was umm, I guess, I mean, the whole ummm, I mean growing up, just you know, I never didn’t really know any differently because you know, it was just the way it was. Sophie: Did your mother ever like make it apparent to you that you were any different? Like, were you aware that you were different than other children? Lucia Rios: No, well it was when I started getting to be in middle school. Not, middle school, in elementary school. More when, I was getting older, umm, where kids umm, you know, would tease me sometimes, or you know I couldn’t play certain sports or do certain things. But, luckily, because of the community I grew up in and I grew up with, you know, I was in school by the time I was three years old. They thought, oh she has a disability you know, she has something wrong cognitively as well but that wasn’t the case. (Laughter) But, I mean, it did help me because umm, you know, it got me ahead. So, I was put in preschool when I was three and so luckily a lot of my, the people I went to school with, they grew up with me. So, I didn’t have to explain everything all the time. Umm, but I was in like kindergarten, I remember umm, bringing in my brace to show all my, ummm, all my, the classmates Interviewers: Mhhmmm. Lucia Rios: What it exactly was because the brace was like from mid chest all the way down and I was like a robot. (Laughter) But so, you know, there was a lot of education on my mom’s part and my teacher’s part to make sure that the students knew what was going on so that they wouldn’t tease or be scared or not be afraid to ask questions. And that, I think helped because I know that doesn’t always happen. Ryan: No. Page 6 �Lucia Rios: Umm, but you know my mom never told me that I was different. I never really felt like different until it was actually, like the actions of others that made me feel that something was wrong with me. And so, ummm, that’s kind of where it was especially in, I remember it starting in middle, elementary school which felt a little bit different or people looked at me a little bit more or people would tell me that I couldn’t do something or ummm. Or then, umm, when we’d go shopping and Holland is very conservative. Ryan: Right. Lucia Rios: And people would want to pray for me. (Laughter) People would want to pray for me and you know, people would come up to my mom and me in the grocery store and say, “If you have faith, she’ll be healed” type of thing. Interviewers: Oh. Lucia Rios: So that is kind of where actually, I started realizing that something is different with me. Because, you know, I was main-streamed when I was young. Umm, you know, the doctors appointments and things like that, it was just kind of that’s the way it always was. Umm, you know and I think the difference between me and maybe someone else who acquired a disability is that it is all I’ve known… Ryan: Right. Lucia Rios: So I don’t know what life is like without it. Where as, someone who maybe gets a spinal cord injury, they understand what life is like beforehand and then it is probably that much more harder to, to live with it or just to accept it. So, I think that’s kind of the way that it was. Ummm, my siblings all treated me the same and so did my cousins and I think they just kind of, they just, it was just the mentality of it’s just “Lucie” that’s what they called me. (Laughter) So you know, you know we’ll just accept her and that was really good. So I never really felt different from my family in that regards. Sophie: Was there ever a certain event that happened that you can remember, that you can remember distinctly when you realized, “oh well, like, I know that I’m different now” because of this certain event? Page 7 �Lucia Rios: Yeah, well I think it was when I was, ummm, as I was getting older and I was actually about fourteen years old. You know how when you’re young you daydream? You know, I was like oh I want to be a writer, oh I’m going to move to New York, oh I’m going to… (Laughter) Lucia Rios: But all those dreams that we had. And for some reason, I really thought it would be different when I grew up that I would not have the disability anymore, which is really weird to think because. And I think it partly because, I knew, at that point I knew that I was really different. You know, in middle school, I wasn’t the one that was into boys or into make-up because I was more focused on: oh, I’m gonna go to the doctor or this is going on or I had to miss school because of this. And so, I was more focused on that. And very, just like, it felt like I was a little bit, ummm, I had to think of things differently than some of my, my peers as well. But when I was fourteen years, I actually went to, umm, and I’m of shorter stature, and part of that is because of I’m, ummm, missing vertabraes in my neck and my spine. Umm, which you know, would make me a little bit shorter. (Laughter) Lucia Rios: And so, but I think that I always thought that I was going to get taller too and I don’t know why. And so, but when I was in the doctor’s office there was something, ummm, he had left and I don’t know where my mom was, she might have been there too, but I looked at my chart. And that’s the first time that I ever looked at like one of my charts and my chart was really thick. But on it, there was a word, and I can’t like, for the life of me, remember the word, but I know it was like, one of those things where it was like indefinitely, definitely – it’s gonna stay. It’s permanent. And when I saw that word it was almost like, ummm, it was almost like, it was, it was like the turning point as far as when I thought wow, this isn’t going to change. And I know it’s kind of, people think like, oh you were fourteen you should have known but… Ryan: Did that, did that hurt? Lucia Rios: I mean, that did. Ryan: Or like was it like this is how that’s going to be? You know, people can take that different ways. Lucia Rios: I think it did hurt at first because I thought, “Oh my gosh! You know, I’m not going to get taller. (Laughter) You know, and I’m not going to, and you know, wow, people are going to treat me Page 8 �differently forever.” And that’s where it hurt. It wasn’t me. And I always tell people this. I don’t feel like it’s the disability that’s a problem. Or umm, my problem but it’s the attitudes and the way others treat me and react that make the disability, ummm, a barrier. Ryan: Yeah. Lucia Rios: Because, you know, I go about and I do things. I can drive, I work, I have my own place. You know, I’m doing all this stuff. I’ve gone to college. So I haven’t let it affect me. But then, the people who are out there who say, “oh are you sure you can do that? Or, oh do you drive? Or, you work part-time, right?” Those are the things that really… Ryan: Yeah. Lucia Rios: Those are the things, that really, that cause the barriers. Ryan: Yeah. Lucia Rios: Because of the attitudes. Or a facility, an inaccessible building. If there is not an elevator, I couldn’t get up here. Or, you know, if there are stairs to a good, a popular restaurant, I can’t go in that is the barrier, not the disability. And so, umm, I think that’s kind of, how, how my view point is now to it. I don’t have a problem with it. It’s more others have a problem with it and sometimes I wonder why because I’m the one that lives with it, you know. (Laughter) Lucia Rios: So, I mean, but I mean, that, that when I was fourteen that was the moment that it changed. I remember going home and being so upset. And looking at my jeans and saying, you know, I’m never going to wear, like, adult jeans. You know, things like that. I mean, the little things. And then I thought well, you know, also, at that time I was told that I couldn’t have children either. Sophie: Really, wow. Lucia Rios: Yeah, at fourteen. So I mean, so then, that stuff too. And you know when you are little you think, oh I’m going to have a family, I’m going to have this… Sophie: Yeah. Lucia Rios: So just all of that stuff combined just kind hit home with me. Page 9 �Sophie: Yeah, are you really family oriented? Like I feel like you would be… Lucia Rios: Yeah. Yup. Yeah. Sophie: How did that information affect you because I know, like personally, family is a big thing for me too? Lucia Rios: Yeah, I mean it was, it was hard because I was, because you know you dream of all these things when you are young and you know, you talk with your friends and say, “oh you know, you’re gonna have kids…” and oh! I’m sorry! You’re a boy… and girls having periods and… (laughter) that type of thing and I didn’t have those. You know, those types of things just made me feel a little bit more different, you know, kind of like not as part of the group of people. So… Ryan: How do you feel, because I know you said that from the get go, you said that in middle school that was when you could really tell that you, that you felt different? Lucia Rios: Mhmmm. Ryan: Are you thankful that for that? Do you think that helped you in any way? Lucia Rios: Yeah, I mean… Ryan: Are you able to see things from a different point of view? Lucia Rios: Yeah, I mean, you know, it’s ok. It depends on the day, but yeah. For the most part, my attitude is I really believe that I am a spiritual person, you know, but I believe that there is a reason for my, you know, having a disability. Ryan: Right. Lucia Rios: You know, especially, because you know, with my four siblings, I was the only one that actually went to college and graduated from high school without having children. A lot of my sib… my cousins all had kids right away. So, I was the one who actually followed their dream of what they wanted to do and I think that if I didn’t, if I didn’t have the disability I wouldn’t be, you know, know that I really love writing. I wouldn’t, ummm, be as sensitive to other people as well. Ummm, and also, wouldn’t use my mind to get myself to different places, and also, yeah. I mean, because I would be like, kind of how my, my family is from generations has been working in a factory, hating my job, you know, that stuff. Bethanie: Mhhmmm. Page 10 �Lucia Rios: So I think that I had to use my mind more than I had to use anything else because I knew that I couldn’t just go into the factory and get a job. Ryan: Yeah. Yeah, to me, it seems like it’s a bit of a blessing. Lucia Rios: Yeah, I do believe that. And people think it’s kind of… people wonder why. People ask, “if you had a magic pill, would you change it?” and I’m like, “I don’t know if I would” because it’s given me a lot of opportunities and it would be very, ummm, I think I would be very naïve about the world as well. Ryan: Yeah. Lucia Rios: I mean, I see people at their best and I see people at their worst as far as the way that they treat others. Ummm, I’ve never been discriminated against because of, ummm, being a Mexican. I have been discriminated against a lot because of my disability. So… Sophie: I feel like you are a very strong person. Like you are a person who you are given an opportunity and you actually go after it… Lucia Rios: Mhhmmm. Sophie: Was there any point in your life where you, you had, like, a turning point where you had to decide, like, I can either get over it or I can use this, like, in your life? Lucia Rios: I mean, yeah. It was, it was actually in college. Sophie: Was it? Lucia Rios: It was. I mean, because I think at that point, you know, don’t get me wrong, I was very independent when I was young. My mom always made sure I was, but I still was very coddled as well. Ummm, you know, I was very, you know, my siblings took care of me, my mom took care of me, ummm, people around me took care of and at that school. So actually, when I went off to college I went to Western University in Kalamazoo, actually, I had to kind of fend for myself. I say it was a real eye opener because I had to get to class by myself in my wheelchair, use transportation, ummm, figure out how I was gonna eat, where I was gonna eat. You know, all of that stuff, and so, I think that was where it was like, I was, I did go through a lot and I won’t lie a lot of depression during that time (laughter) you know, like any student. But, I think that especially, and I kind of joked, that was when I kind of blamed God, you know because I was still trying to figure out, I mean, especially with all, I mean high school, I was so glad Page 11 �to get out of high school, but college is such a different story. I mean, you still try to fit in and you’re not the ideal looking person like everyone else is blonde haired and blue eyed. (Laughter) Ryan: Yeah. Lucia Rios: I mean, it’s just not, there’s so much people look at you and they are like, “Oh my gosh!” You know, where as, you know, and I joke around with my nephew because you know, he’s a teenager now and we talk about how people treat other people. And I say, “you know what?” I said, “I’m like ‘F’-ed up on the outside , you know…” (Laughter) Lucia Rios: And that’s what I say, “that’s how some people feel on the inside. So mine is on the outside, I can’t hide it, you know.” And he’s like, “no, you’re not.” But I think it’s kind of funny because it’s true. It’s like people can see it. I can’t hide anything, where as, other people can hide what they are feeling or how they feel or how they feel that they look, you know. So, ummm, yeah, college was that time where I was I had to come to terms with it. And finally, and a friend actually told me, he was like, “you have it. You need to deal with it.” And he didn’t have a disability and he was like, “you need to get over it already!” (Gasp. Laughter) Sophie: Really? Wow. Lucia Rios: Yeah, you either dwell on it forever or you need to accept it. So I had to accept it. And so, it was hard. It is not like I did it over night. I wrote a lot of sad poetry and I wrote a lot of blogging. And I did all that stuff. I did blogging before it was cool. (Laughter) Lucia Rios: So, you know, but I mean, I was a journaler so I’d write a lot and so now I look back at my, my, at those journals and I’m like, “Oh my gosh! I was so depressed!” (Laughter) Bethanie: Awwww…. Lucia Rios: But you know, it helped me though. It helped me know and to be not afraid to express how I feel. And I think I try to do that when I talk to people, especially other’s with disabilities or people to try to help them understand about disabilities is that it’s not ummm, I’m not gonna try to hide how I felt. Page 12 �You know, I’m not this, you know, I know people have the impression that people with disabilities as 1.) either very bitter, mean, (Laughter) don’t want any help. Or they see them as you know, like super gimp, like someone who is just like an inspiration, over come the odds, all of that stuff. But you know, I feel like I’m kind of in the middle. I’m like I have these different things that I’ve dealt with but I also, I’m just trying to live my life. And so, you know, so, you know, when people talk to me, when I talk to people about it, I tell them how what I’ve experienced and stuff because I’m not gonna pretend like I was happy all the time to have it because I wasn’t. And I think if you talk to a lot of different people with disabilities, even hidden disabilities… Ryan: Yeah. Lucia Rios: People will tell you that it’s not easy and there is an internal struggle. And so, I mean, and like I said, some days I, I still get annoyed and I still get upset but sometimes, it’s those constant things like, you know five people asking if I need help just as I’m walking down the sidewalk. Bethanie: Mmhhmmm. Lucia Rios: Or someone looks at me, and it’s not children that bother me, it’s the adults. (Laughter) Lucia Rios: Or someone will say something like, “Oh you need a snowblower on that thing!” or you know, things like that. Like, seriously?! Those types of things. That’s when it really picks at me and then I’m like, I just wanna… Sophie: Yeah. Lucia Rios: I just wanna get upset but then it’s kind of like, I don’t do it in public if I get upset. But then, I’m usually better afterward so… (25:12) Bethanie: Did you notice once you went to college that it was a little bit more difficult because you weren’t around the same people all the time... Lucia: (Interrupted): Yeah... Bethanie (continued :) Like, you said, like going like though like elementary, middle school, and high school Page 13 �Lucia (Interrupted): Yep Bethanie (continued): You had lots of the same kids Lucia (Interrupted): Yep, Yep Bethanie: So... Lucia: (Interrupted): Yep, same kids, same teachers. And when I went to, um, college I actually experienced discrimination for the first time... (Background): Okay Lucia: And I think that was what, you know, eh, discrimination for the first time but also accessibility issues experience like what it was really like to be someone with a disability, trying to be independent. Sophy: Uh-huh Lucia: But, um, you know, the fact that the discrimination was from a professor of mine, my English professor, and Sophy (Interrupted): Really... Lucia: Yeah, so it was really, um, it was really difficult, um, just because, um, he would do it, I don’t know why, I don’t know if he felt uncomfortable with me or what but he would say inappropriate comments to me, uhmm, you know he’d call me crippled, um, he said I had that going against me along with being a woman and a minority. You know, things like that, um he would say things about my, about the things I wrote as well, as far as like, writing about my disability even though this class was like an English 101 class and we were supposed to write about you know, what it, it was my first semester, like what it, write about what it was like to be away from home. Sophy (Interrupted): um-hum Lucia: You know so things like that, so you know. So um, he’d do a lot of it in private, cause he’d always wanna meet, he was kinda a weird guy. He’d always want to meet with his students in private for meetings and so he’d always want to do it in private. He’d write on my papers different things saying that I was trapped in a mental wheelchair, you know, things like that. It was just really weird and so actually, it actually helped me though. I, um, didn’t let him continue to do that, and it was through the Page 14 �help of another friend who encouraged me, and we actually went to the head of the English Department to talk about him, and what he was doing and I brought her all the evidence and everything. And... Sophy (Interrupted): That’s really good... Lucia (continued): And so, I was glad that I didn’t let that get me um, I didn’t let him continue to get me like that, um, I still went through the class, um you know, I got a C in the class and I felt like it wasn’t the dis- grade I deserved, so I ended up taking the class by a different professor the next semester and I got an A. (Giggles) Lucia: So I mean, you know, but I think that was actually helpful because I don’t think I would have known about advocacy for myself because I had never had to do it myself. Sophy (Interrupted) um-hum Lucia: Um, because my friend went with me but she didn’t talk for me, she didn’t do it for me; she just could see what it was doing to me and what it was like... (Interrupted): yeah... Lucia: Um, so I think that was the part, and the thing is that wasn’t just, because at first I thought I was just being sensitive, but um, other people in the class were noticing it, as well because he would also say something’s in class and they would say something to me like, “what is he doing?”. So then I knew, “Okay, well then, it’s not just me” type of thing, but you know my mom at that time, um, she really missed me and she kind of, in that too, she really was a caretaker of me, and so she would encourage me to come home, “oh, it’s okay, you tried, come home” you know and I didn’t let you know because a lot of the time I wanted to, but I didn’t let it though, (Interrupted): um-hmm Lucia: …and I’m glad I didn’t though you know. And so after that first semester, I started doing more on campus, getting more involved, um, kind of being more, looking out more for barriers, and writing about what barriers people with disabilities faced. So... Bethanie: Did you find, like what sort of barriers did you like, face like, as far as accessibility and stuff Lucia :( Interrupted): Yep, eh Page 15 �Bethanie (continued)...In college? Lucia: Um, you know, um buildings you know Western was really old. Some of the places were old, some of the buildings that lacked accessibility, elevators that weren’t’ working so sometimes I couldn’t even get to my classes, um, you know the automatic door openers were broken, and that wasn’t like necessarily I wasn’t upset about that because of me but then I started meeting other people with disabilities and realizing some of the limitations that others had as well. Like one of my friends, who has othoratory arthritis, and I’m still friends with her today, and she um, if the button wasn’t working she had to wait outside for someone to open it for her. Rain, snow, sunshine, whatever (Background): um-hum Lucia: And that frustrated me and angered me more than myself not going and being able to go and open it myself because I had the strength to open it she physically couldn’t go over there and do that. So that’s kind of what, what I did, um like what prompted me to get more involved and um, I started, um and was really um, the person from the disable student services at Western, she knew me very well.. (Laugh) (Background laughing along) Lucia: Um because I would call there and she then she would give me numbers to call if like people to fix things and stuff like that. Snow removal was a big thing, not just for students who, I mean for any student who, I mean for everyone, it was a big deal but especially if you had to use a wheelchair, crutches or something like that so... Bethanie: Were your classes really spaced out? I mean I know Grand Valley sometime, I complain about a ten minute walk and then like if you have to go from like mackinaw to the ones on the far side... Lucia: Yeah Bethanie: Like Lake Ontario... Lucia: Yep... Bethanie: Or whatever, in the snow. Is it spread out? Page 16 �Lucia: Luckily is it, luckily I was able to use the disabilities services, which I didn’t even know that there were places like that which helped people with disabilities until I got to college. Um they, I was able to register early so that I could space out, get my classes the way that I needed them... (Interrupted): okay... Lucia: So I could get to class to class in time. So it was kinda nice so I didn’t have to take the morning classes... (Laughing) (Laughing in agreement) Lucia: You know the Friday 8 AM things like that. But it also helped me so I knew how much time I had to get to class, but like sometimes, in some of the buildings, the bathrooms weren’t accessible so I would have to go before I went to class, and if you had a three hour class, or two hour class, I mean Sophy (interrupted): Oh, that‘s a, long time.. Ryan (Interrupted): You could be uncomfortable. Lucia: Yeah, exactly, so things like that and you know my degree um, I was going into Journalism, so I had a lot of writing classes, so what I would do was um, when we were able to pick issues, I would write about accessibility because I thought, “well I can’t just complain about it, I need to educate others about it”.. (Background): um-hmm Lucia: And so I stated educating others through my writing, through my articles and then they’d say, “What can we do to help?” And I would say, “Call too!”... (Giggles) (Laughing) Lucia: “Here’s the number, say something. It’s, it doesn’t have to be just me doing it”, so. That’s where I started to get more involved in the whole disability movement; I guess you can say (laughing) (Laughing) Bethanie: Um, did you have to do any, like internships for school or like work with any organizations, like um, I know you work with Disability NetLucia (Interrupted): Network, uh-hmm Page 17 �Bethanie: …now how did yo- how did you get connected to something like that outside of school? Lucia: Okay, well you know when I was in school, I did this really big paper about accessibility in Kalamazoo and I was a- actually a- able to connect, because Disability Network is based on what’s called a Center for Independent Living so there are about 5 to 6 hundred throughout the United States. Bethanie: OK. Lucia: And so everywhere you go, you can contact your local, CIL, that’s what they call them. And so it actually started back in the 70’s in Berkley, California and kinda like just spread across the, the whole united states, and um, helping people in different, different types of people access the different resources that may- that they nee- may need, whether it’s employment, whether its housing, whether its nursing, getting out of nursing homes. You know that’s kinda the big- where it started at. You know people were um, in Berkley there, they weren’t able to go to school or they weren’t able to live in the dorms and they were forced to live sometimes in nursing homes, they didn’t have a tenant care. So that’s kinda how it all started with these individuals with really significant disabilities. Like I’m talking like people that were paralyzed from the, you know, from the head down, that started that because they wanted the same rights as people without disabilities on campus. And so it just turned into this whole big movement that is still, goes on today, and um, like in Michigan there are about 14 centers for independent living. One actually is in, um, Kent County which is Disability Advocates of Kent County. And so each Center for Independent Living focuses on their own ar-areas, so our, ours is Ottawa, Allegan Counties... (Background): okay Lucia: Um, you know Kalamazoo has one where they focus on some of their counties, so um, you know were not like territorial, we’re not like, “Oh, we’re better than you” ..(Laughing) (Laughing) Lucia: But, each community is just different, as far as what there, there need is. Um we do a lot in our organization for community work that is not just good for people with disabilities; it’s good for the whole community. Whereas, in Kalamazoo, they do a lot of case management with some of their, their clients, because that’s what’s needed there. Page 18 �(Mumbling) Lucia: So it really depends but um, actually when I had that paper, I um, found out about the Center for Independent Living in Kalamazoo and I had never heard of it, um and I was like maybe a junior when I first found out about it, so it was like, you know it as like small steps... (Agreeing): Hmm-hmm Lucia: Um, but then I also found another group actually that um, was a, a group that started in Kalamazoo that they helped people with disabilities and they, you know, they helped with certain basic needs, but also worked as advocates as well, and I can’t remember what the name is now, but I know that I um, stayed- I went there for a whole day, interviewed them all and just like, was so like, “WOW“ you know , people actually do this.. Um, so it’s- but I got my job is um, though, when I was in high school, I- one of these, (stutter) I was(Giggle) Lucia: There’s an article written about me about overcoming the odds, type of article you know, people write those as far as like, “so and so was homeless and still they- and still they went to school”. You know mine was, “She had a disability and she’s going to college now” so that was what the article was. So, the same writer who wrote about me when I was in high school, um, was looking for Thanksgiving Day stories because I graduated in December, um o I went to school for 4 and a half years and so she was looking for Thanksgiving Day stories, and so one of my, like she’s like my second mother, works in the school district in Holland, and she saw the e-mail and said, “Oh My Gosh, you need to write about so and so” you know, that type of thing, and the woman’s like “oh I remember her, I wrote her in high school”.. (Giggles) Lucia: So she thought she’d write an article about, “oh, a girl who overcomes the odds” you know “from high school and graduated from college now and an aspiring journalist” and you know that type of thing. So she wrote this article and actually it was kinda cool cause a photographer followed me around and um, you know she talked to teachers, she talked to different people. You know it was just a really big article and it was really nice ad it ran in the Kalamazoo Kazett and the Holland um- The Grand Rapids Press, but at the time, they had a Lakeshore Edition, when you know when the newspapers were a little bit more thriving …(laughing) Page 19 �Sophy (Agreeing): uh-hmm Lucia: And had a Lakeshore Edition that went all around the Lakeshore. Well the executive director in it, she talked about how my- I was advocating for accessibility on campus and how I was involved in student council and how you know, I kind of, got my voice though school, and was very passionate about people with disabilities and that I and that I had my own disabilities as well. Well the executive director saw it and um, for Disability Network, and she called me as I was working one day at school an said, “So, uh, we have an opening for a job, would you like an interview?” and I was like “Sure, why not.” (Giggles) Lucia: Because I didn’t have anything going on at the time, you know I was just ready to be done with school then I was just going to focus on, what next because at the time, I still needed to get my license... Because I was waiting until I was done with school to get my license and you know all that stuff, so I was waiting until all that was done. So I got a job- well I uh, interviewed two times and she offered me a part time position doing accessibility work in Holland- and Ottawa and Allegan counties. And so that’s kinda how I started and I’ve kinda been there- I started part time but then um, was also able to work at the Newspaper as well, the Grand Rapids Press for a short time, um. So I was doing both jobs, taking drivers training, I finally learned how to drive, which is good. And then um, I took it in Grand Rapids, so um, (laughing) (Laughing) Lucia: It was horrible, but- and I drive with hand control, so I was able- that gave me more independence. And so I was working both jobs and my boss at Disability Networks, said “I’d really would like you full time” and I said, “well, no I can’t” cause I wanted to do both. Writing was my first love and so I thought “no I can’t” but then, that, that desire to do more in the community um, was so great that, the second time she asked me, I said “ok”. Sophy: Hm-hum Lucia: And since I’ve been full time, and I’ve been there now, 9 years. Bethanie: That’s a long time... Lucia: Yeah...it’s a long time... (Interrupted laughter) Page 20 �Lucia: I know... Ryan: time flies by... Lucia: It does yeah, and the thing is, through that I’ve actually been able to do um, I’ve seen community change. I mean, accessibility, it can take years... Sophy: Mm-hmm Lucia: Forum, um, to be completed. But for people to finally get- oh yeah that’s a good idea, uum. So I’ve been able to see the change happen, but also, um because of the opportunity, I found out so much more about disability um, his-the history, but also what’s going on in the state of Michigan, regarding um, the disability rights movement and how-you know, I was excited when you sent the e-mail to me because that’s kind of something people don’t think about right away.. Sophy: Hm-hmm Lucia: They see the oh, there’s the civil rights, which the disability rights movement spawned off the Civil Rights, you know the whole, with that all came, you know so. Um then of course, the LGBTQ movement, all that stuff then they have the Woman’s Lib type stuff. But disability is just a little, little thing that people just don’t think about, but there have been a lot of big- great strides, but there’s still a lot more that needs to be done. Um, so I was excited to be involved in that, and um, you know and I mean I was still happy to do my writing thing but just in a different capacity, so. Bethanie: Um, did you find it, um, more enjoyable, err, um, exciting because it was happening in your home community Lucia: Yeah Bethanie: Like in Holland… Lucia: Yeah Bethanie: Or in that area where you grew up? Lucia: Yeah. I was, I was excite because um, you know I came back um, and left like a little girl, you know and not really knowing anything and then I came back um, with just, um, so much desire to change the world, you know I mean, and especially my community. And I had a voice too, like I wasn’t afraid to speak my mind, I wasn’t worried about what people would think, um, so I think that was, um, that that Page 21 �was the change as well, but I was able to um, yeah that made it exciting that I was able to um, that I was part of this bigger movement than just- you know I felt like I had a purpose in some of it. That I could educate people, and that’s actually what my job, I’m able to do a lot of education and teach students about um, disabilities, employment. I work a lot with youth and disabilities you know, um ad so you know I do a lot just to educate so, um, educating just by giving presentations to people all in business suits and stuff. And it feels good to be the person people look to for answers in that respect, you know, because you know, they actually want to know what you have to say. Where before I hated speech class, I hated talking in front of people; I could never do it. Because I thought my voice wasn’t, didn’t matter. It gave me more of a purpose. Bethanie: Do you like getting or interviewing, err, not interview um, presenting and talking to kids more or like people in like what you said, in business suits... Lucia: Yeah... Bethanie: Like what did you find more enjoyable? Lucia: I um, I really liked the teenagers, um, and that’s what I work a lot with. I have a program, we call it the um, the Yes Program. What it is, is it teaches children how to get and keep jobs, um, art-particularly kids with disabilities. Um, and a lot of them, you know adults; you know are kinda setting their ways, so they’re- they are scared, of the unknown. Whereas teenagers, especially, the teenagers who we deal with are more the rougher, at risk kids, they will accept you for who you are right away. If you’re open with them, they’ll be open with you, and so right away I just come out and say, “Alright, I’m in a wheel chair” you know, “this is what- why it is, if you have any questions, let me know, but make sure you ask questions that you wouldn’t mind answering too”. And so that usually clears it up and then they have that respect and they, you know, its not- they never- it’s never brought up again. Whereas adults (chuckles)... (Laughing) Lucia: It’s a bit different. You know, as far as, they’re still not sure if they should ask me the question or they say inappropriate things or if they should avoid me because they don’t you know- or some of them get really excited about it and say “oh my gosh, thank you so much for teaching me this”, so. I’d say I enjoy the teen a lot more but I don’t mind the adults. I think some of the time I think it’s funny because some of the things that come out of their mouths (chuckles) Page 22 �(Laughing) Lucia: And then it’s like, “oh my gosh” so. But yeah I mean I just like educating people about differences because I think everyone’s different, but um, you know. And some of it seems so common sense too Sophy: Yeah Lucia: But people need that I guess (chuckle) Bethanie: Did you have a certain mentor who educated you, as far as like certain things you can do to be more active, err... Lucia (Interrupted): Well, IBethanie (Finishing): or encouraged you to go to school or things like that? Lucia: Yeah, I mean growing up I um, there was a, a, a woman I still- her name’s Ellen Westvier and she um, was a social worker through the Holland Public Schools, and they made me talk to her , like when I was like in 3rd grade, because I didn’t talk, or I wouldn’t talk to them or I wouldn’t tell them what I needed so they were afraid that my needs weren’t being met because they wanted to make sure I was okay in the classroom and all that stuff. Sophy: Hm-hmm Lucia: So they made me talk to her and stuff because they thought, “okay, maybe she needs you know, some help with that” and we actually just you know- she actually treats me like her daughter now and she’s like my second mother. And, but she really, um always encouraged me growing up and you know, we talked about the disability as well and um, I still- I still see her as a mentor, you know she is successful in her career and so she just you know she just encouraged me you know when my mom said, “oh, come home” Ellen would say, “You better not go home!”.. (Laughing) Lucia: You know, type of thing, “no!” you know, that type of thing. So as far as disabilities, I’m just really encouraged and inspired, and I hate that word, “inspired” but it’s true. By other people with disabilities have done so much more than even, anything that I’ve done. I mean I’ve been able, through this job I’ve been able to meet a lot of different people because through conferences or through the state, um, and I’m on different committees, so I’ve been able to meet a lot of other people with disabilities who have, Page 23 �you know, just a feel of don’t so much. And that really encourages me as well, you feel some sort of connection as well, but understanding too... Sophy: Uh-huh Lucia: You know, where there’s disability conferences, I’m so excited to go to some of them because it’s almost like going to summer camp. You know, you go to summer camp, and everyone’s like you… Sophy: Yeah Lucia: … And you talk about the same thing; you don’t have to worry about anything. It’s kinda like that, and so... Sophy: That’s really good Lucia: And I never had that before, um growing up, you know. Ryan: not at all, being... Lucia: So... Ryan: Being a minority... Lucia : (Interrupted) yeah Ryan: like it, mi-mi- minority in the sense that whi- you know with the disability whereas the majority of people do not have disabilities... Lucia: Yeah, exactly... Ryan: you know eh, it- like you said, being around people that, you have not similar interests to but you share characteristics of... Lucia: Yep exactly, yeah. You do yeah, and it- It’s fun too, when you go to these, like we all went- there was a conference, it’s the Adiam Symposium, which I’ve gone a few times and it was in Las Vegas... (Laughing) Lucia: It was like, it was so fun though because there were so many people, and it’s like disability galore there! Page 24 �(Laughing) Lucia: It cool, it’s like we just- you hang out, you just get to know people, you hang out with them you get to know them, you meet them, and you still connect. And so at the conference it’s like every otheryou know it’s just normal to see someone walking with a cane and someone who’s blind walking together talking. You know it’s just normal to see someone in a wheel chair and someone without in a wheelchair talking together you know. And I’m just- when I-you know some of us had talked about, i wonder what people must think, especially these visitors from the other- other countries... (laughing) (Everyone laughing) Sophy: yeah. Lucia (continued): ...like oh my gosh, Las Vegas is like, (laughing)... there's a lot of people there like that... you know so. But it’s fun though because you know, you know when you're with people that youi don’t if any of you guys are in sororitiesSophy (agreeing): Mm-hmm, yep... Lucia (continued): or fraternities Ryan (interrupted): different groups and organizations... Lucia (continued): different groupsRyan: yeah... Lucia (continued): Okay, and how you feel some sort of connection with those people Sophy (agreeing): Oh yeah... Lucia: Um, its kinda like that, and you don't care what anyone thinks, you just are together and err, it's kinda like, so.. Sophy: its' kinda like unity, like with- power from unity... Lucia (interrupted): yeah, exactly, yeah so... but it’s also kinda fun to see peoples looks too... and everything like that so(Background): yeah... Page 25 �Lucia: yeah, so... Sophy: I’m curious, um, you seem like really really busy and like, okay by yourself but do you think you have any disconnect from like, your personal life? LikeLucia: Oh, (laughing) Sophy: Or I mean, likeLucia: well you know, I (laughing)... (All together laughing) Lucia: I think I do really keep busy, you know, and i, i ha- I actually... (Laughing) (All together laughing) Sophy: sorry (laughing) Lucia: oh no, no it's fine. It’s funny because my family tells me all the time that like, 'we never hear from you...” (Together laughing) Lucia (continued): you know. "You’re always so busy" and I am, I-I think I get bored if I’m not... busy... Sophy (agreeing): Mm-hmm Lucia (continued): like, i-i- have to do things, like um; right now I do freelance writing too... (Agreeing): Mm-hmm... Lucia (continued): you know... (Laughing) (Group laughs) Lucia: I do that stuff to you know you, I like to be involved in the community, and I like to spend a lot of time with my nieces and nephews for now, getting to be teenagers. And i did have, for a while there, for like four years, i had uh- I was in a relationship. You know, but unfortunately that didn't- we didn't um, you know... Sophy (agreeing): yeah... Page 26 �Lucia (continued): work out, but... um, I don't know, i mean I’m just always- I’m very social, so i always wanna be out and about and meeting new people and doing things. So, but yeah that is something that I do need to work on too, is just... Sophy (interrupted): balancing... Lucia (continued): Balancing it, yeah. Because sometimes i think it’s so run down... (Background): yeah... Lucia: ... and my sisters are like, "oh my gosh you need to stop, you're so busy"... (Group laughs) Lucia: but i think that um, i don't know if it feels like um, it gives me purpose, or I’m trying like- and i-I thought about this too, when I was little, people would say, 'oh you can't do that' and I would say, 'oh wanna see me?' and I’d do it.. (Group laughs) Lucia: and i don't know if i still have that mentality, where people say, 'oh, you can't do that' and I'd say, 'well, yeah wanna see me?'... (Group laughs) Lucia: so i think some of that is still there, you know as far as that... Sophy (agreeing :) yeah Lucia (continue)... so yeah. Yeah. Bethanie: As far as giving you a purpose, um, do you-I know you said earlier like, err, you're very spiritual and stuff... Lucia (agreeing): mm-hmm Bethanie (continue): like how does- how do you think that connects into how you've dealt with it... Lucia: yeah... Bethanie: or how you've, accepted it or how you've uh, you're going to uh, do good things and like... Page 27 �Lucia: yeah... Bethanie: advocate for it instead of being bitter about it... Lucia: mm-hmm, yeah. Bethanie: or mad or angry like you said. Lucia: well i think that like, I-I without, you know, without... because i think if i didn't have like some sort of spiritual, or if i didn't believe that there was a purpose, I wouldn't- I wouldn't probably wanna exist. (Background): mm-hmm Lucia: You know, because like i had said before, disabilities is very difficult because, um, more of it is other people, and the way that they see you, um and those things, and how they can really affect you, and make you really not want to be around.. Bethanie: mm-hmm Lucia: you know, so i think that-I had that hope that there is someday, that I will know, that there is a bigger purpose than just being here. There’s a purpose that He has for me... Bethanie: Mm-hmm Lucia: for the way that this was. because for a while there I drove myself crazy wanting to know why and that gives me some sort of relieve that I will know eventually and If i didn't, i would like very, yeah. Like i said I would s - yeah... (Bethanie laughs) Lucia: you know i also feel it because you know a lot of people- my mom said that, 'you wouldn't live overnight', 'you wouldn't live here', 'you wouldn't live to be a teenager', 'you wouldn't live this-' and finally they said, 'oh i think she's okay now'. (Group chuckle) Lucia: you know also, I guess um, yeah i don't know, I just, um just the feeling too. You know ju-just knowing that... I just feel... I just feel it-I don't know how to explain it... Ryan (interrupted): being fulfilled? Page 28 �Lucia: Yeah, i guess being fulfilled... Ryan: (interrupted): being rewarded... Lucia: Yeah... Ryan: by what you do... Lucia: Yeah, and I guess, I guess, like I said, if i didn't have that hope that someday I will know, then we all-because we all wanna know, what’s your purpose'.. Bethanie: mm-hmm, right... Lucia: what’s your purpose, what do you- what's why? You know and if i didn't have that I would be you know... (Group agrees): yeah... Lucia: I would be so... I would not wanna... exist. Bethanie: Did you find your spiritual community to be more encouraging or discouraging because I know you said, 'if you prayed for her, then she'd be healed', err, other things like that? Lucia: yeah that's always been something because I was born and raised Catholic, but I-I don't practice Catholicism, which my mom’s like, 'what have I done wrong?’... (Group chuckles) Lucia (continues): it’s not like I’m a Satanist or anything... (Laughing) (Group laughs) Lucia: you know I just don't practice Catholicism, you know- you know I’m a Christian, you know but. So anyways, it’s just kinda funny but uh, um, yeah, that’s the struggle too, is that people, um, you know dating back to when I was little um, in my first um, um, what’s that called, um what’s that called, confession, you know where the-the priest said, you know I told him what I’d done, i don't remember i was like eight or nine, you know.. (Laughing) (Group laughs) Page 29 �Lucia: and he said, he seemed so, just very like, disappointed and he said, 'don't you want to walk with god in heaven?' And i didn't walk, the regular way, and that really upset me because what are you saying because that- he told me I wasn't going to walk with God when I went to heaven. You know, that type of thing because I didn't even know if after this life, if like i said, you know, I am fine in a wheelchair in crutches, I get around, i move around, that type of thing. Um, I’ve never wanted to walk regularly, i guess, you know cause I can; i just do it in a different way. Um, but um, i know people have said, 'do you think you'll be healed in Heaven' or 'what’s healing like?' 50:30 Lucia: “…with God? In heaven? And I didn’t walk, like the regular way, and that really upset me because I’m like, uh, what are you saying? You know, that lie that I told? That I’m not going to get to walk in heaven? You know, that type of thing. Thinking that, you know, cuz I don’t even know if after this life, if, you know, like I said, you know, I am fine in a wheel chair or in crutches, I get around, I move around, that type of thing, um, you know, I’ve never wanted to walk regularly, I guess. Bethanie: Mhm Lucia: You know, I mean, cuz I can, I just do it in a different way, um, but,um, you know, I know people have said, do you think you’ll be healed in heaven? Or what’s healing like? And that’s really what’s really something where I, um, the church I used to go to, people would constantly ask me if I wanted to get, if they could pray for my healing, and that annoys me cuz it’s like, well what’s wrong with me? God made me in his image, right? Bethanie: Mhm Lucia: We’re all in his image. But, you’re saying that I need to be healed, from what? You know? So I think that’s where, that’s where I’m conflicted, as far as, you know, spiritually, I know where I’m at and I, I read the bible, I do devotions, I do that type of thing, but as far as other people and how they are, um, in that context, in a spiritual, in church, and stuff like that, um, they make you feel like you are, um, because you know, God would want you to be healed, because, um, He does it in the bible, but you know also, He needed to show His power and part of that was through people, I don’t know necessarily, I think that if God wanted me healed, He would heal me, right now. Bethanie: Right. Page 30 �Lucia: But that’s not what He has in mind for me, so… Ryan: And that doesn’t take away from what kind of person you are, the things you do… Lucia: No, yeah. Ryan: Cuz it hasn’t stopped you yet, I mean. Lucia: Exactly, so yeah, I think that, I think that’s a big issue that I have with the church (group laughter) and stuff is people want to heal you, they think that something is wrong with you. Um, I’ve had people come up to me, one woman came up to me in Target one time, and I was shopping by myself, and she comes up and she says, “Can I pray for you?”, and I don’t mind if people want to pray for me, or I pray for people, whatever, um, but, you know, at that point, I’m like, what gives you the right to do that to me? And other people were like, looking to see what I’d say, and I said, “Why?”. You know, and that was the first time I had ever stuck for myself, like, why? Instead of saying, “oh, no thanks” or “okay”, you know, cuz that’s uncomfortable, you know? Um, and she went on in this long story about how she was diagnosed with, I don’t know if it was like, MS, and how she, um, had, um, people pray for her, and then she was healed, and she didn’t have to use a wheel chair and all this other stuff. So she would like to pray for me, and I told her, “No”. And she looked at me like I had slapped her. Like, I had offended HER. And she left, and I’m like, seriously? Why would you do that? I mean, you know, you say you’re some, you know, person who wants to pray for people, but then I was thinking, why not her, over there? She might be struggling with something. And you’re not asking her, you’re asking me, because of the way that I look. When really, I was fine, you know, going about my day. So, those types of things happen. Um, you know, people who say, “I’m going to pray for your healing” and point to my legs. And I’m like, that’s not what…that’s not what needs to be healed, it’s more inside that needs to be healed. It’s not the legs. It’s not the, so I can run around. It’s other things. And so I think people don’t understand, people don’t understand that, and that’s what bugs me a lot. And so, I don’t, you know, ‘the healing’… I hate the healing thing, cuz I’m just like, if He wanted me to be healed, He’d make me….He makes me the way that He wants me to me. Bethanie: Right, it’s not going to be because you – Lucia: Pray hard enough. Bethanie: Yes. Page 31 �Lucia: And it’s, yeah. I mean, so, that’s something that I struggle with a lot in college too, as far as that whole, you know, wanting to know why, kind of, and I think everyone struggles with that spiritually. You know, I don’t think it’s uncommon. Bethanie: Mhm Lucia: Um, but we all have our different ways of doing it, you know, and, um, you know, and I believe that He told it to me through a dream, actually. I hope I don’t sound crazy, but, when I was growing up, until I got to college, November, in college, cuz I wrote about it, and I remember the day that I woke up, and um, I always dreamed of myself walking, and doing all that stuff, and, um, I woke up one morning and I had dreamed of myself in a wheel chair. And ever since that day in November, uh, when I was a freshman, I never dreamed of myself walking ever again. I’ve always been in a wheel chair or on crutches. So, it’s just kind of interesting how, and it’s weird, how it’s changed, like that. Ryan: Was that a good day for you? Lucia: Yeah, I was like, oh my gosh! Ryan: Yeah, it seemed like it would be… Lucia: It was. I was really surprised. I never noticed it until then (group says, “mhm”). And it’s not like I wanted myself to sleep so I could dream of myself walking. It was just something that happened. So then all of a sudden that day I woke up and I was like, “oh my gosh”, I’ve never dreamed of myself not being in a wheel chair or crutches again. So it’s kind of, I don’t know, some of that stuff is, you know, and I think everything, its, its all, there’s a purpose. So. Bethanie: Did you find it different, I know, like, I don’t know the Kalamazoo area very well, but I know, like, how Holland, like, Ottawa county is very famous for the religious community, so, did you find a lot more people asking you, um, up here, rather than down there? Or was it about the same? Or? Lucia: No, it’s in the area. You know, in Holland, that area, and even in Grandville area, that type of thing, but um, I used to go to church in Grandville, so that’s kind of what, yeah. But in Holland, I mean, it’s very, you know, reformed Christian, and all that stuff, um, and just very…s…strict. But I also think that, I don’t know, I think its hard, I think its hard for a person with a disability to understand the reason’s why, but I can’t imagine what it’s like for other people to want to know why too, you know? Outside, kinda like, why? But um, you know, I guess, like I said before, I just feel like I’m beating a dead Page 32 �horse sometimes, cuz I say, you know, I’m the one that lives with it, and other people are so bothered by it. But I’m the one that lives with it. You know? Why does it bother other people so much? It’s my… it’s mine to deal with. Like, my cross to bear, or whatever you say, but I mean, that’s kind of what annoys me the most and what makes me upset. Is that other people are more upset by the way that I look or the way that I was born than I am. (silence), and you know, I think I just want to know why. (laughter) you know, I mean, I guess I don’t know, I mean, it’s not like, I know other people get jealous of each other, it’s not that though. It’s more, “you’re different, and you shouldn’t be that way”, and so, how would that make you feel? If someone constantly told you and let you know how different you were, and why were you like that? How do you think that would affect your self esteem? And your ego? And everything? Effect you as a person? To say, oh, maybe I’m not worthy, maybe I’m not like that person, so, it does eat at you, and I’m like, you know what I mean, I am, I try to be a very positive person, but, you know, like I said, somedays, you just can’t be positive. And usually those days I’m just quieter. I write, I journal a lot, or I talk to someone, or I just you know, just do something productive. Ryan: Very therapeutic. Lucia: Yeah, yup, exactly, and I think I feel it a lot more because I work in the disability community too, cuz I have to live it, but I also have to work with it, so sometimes it can be overwhelming and sometimes I just have to take time to do anything not disability related and do something different. Bethanie: Do you think that’s part of the reason why you started doing more free lance writing again so you have a little bit of a break sometimes? Lucia: Yeah, I think so. Bethanie: What sort of things do you write about when you do free lance writing? Lucia: Okay. Well, I work for a marketing company, and it’s all internet blogging and website content, so I write for doctors, um, in particular, pediatrists (laughter) Ryan: Pediatrists are what kind of doctor? Lucia: Foot doctors (laughter) Ryan: Oh, okay (laughter) Page 33 �Lucia: And, um, some CPA’s and things like that. So, um, yeah, I do all that, which, which is nice cuz it’s different and I’m still kind of getting my fill with the writing, I do writing at my job, too, but its more like, writing down about accessibility and disability related, so yeah, I mean, it’s different, I like it. Bethanie: Do you have to do writing for grants for your job? Lucia: Um no, not anymore. I used to have to do it a little bit, but, um, no, usually, um, you know, whoever’s taking on that particular program does grants do I don’t have to do that as much. A lot of my stuff has been the same for years, it’s just…I’m able to tweak up what I do. Kind of, yeah, so its glad (laughter) cuz then usually they’re looking for, “sorry, needy” “we need this help to do this” and so… Ryan: You were never like that in the get go, so that kind of goes against you’re whole positive ‘this is for a reason’ mentality. Lucia: Yeah, yeah, I mean… Ryan: Which is why I feel that personally, but I feel like everybody could be a better person… not … I guess just accept things the way they are and be positive, you know? Share experiencesLucia: Yeah, and just learn from each other. You know, I think, I try to look at people, cuz I want people to look at me with, and see the person first, you know, and that’s what we talk about in first language in the disability community, you know, but that’s how everyone wants people to see them, as the person, not what you look like, or how you dress, or who you dated— Ryan: The shoes you’re wearing Lucia: Yeah! You want people to look at you as a person first. So I try to do that to others, too, how would they, who are they as a person? Not necessarily what they look like, or how they act, and um, you know, and so I try to base it off of that and if I find that they’re weird then it’s different, ya know? (group laughter), but I mean, it’s just, you know, that’s a different story, but, you know, I guess, I always encourage you to do that too, look at the person first, don’t look at everything else, the exterior, because it’s all inside. Which is true, and a lot of times people, um, you know, I mean, I’m a magnet for weirdo’s, you know, cuz people, I don’t know if it’s because of the disability that people feel like they don’t have to have their guard up as much, but um, sometimes, I get people, nice people, coming up and sharing their stories with me, or wanting to talk to me, or ask me questions, and then I get some weird Page 34 �people too. But, um, you know, and I think part of that is because, you know, they don’t feel like, I’m not this, I guess, outside you can tell that I’m not, I’m, um… Ryan: …Judgemental? Lucia: No, maybe broken? You can tell that I’m not the norm. Something different. So they feel like they don’t have to have their façade up, so. And I think that’s cuz, I’ve had people tell me that too. Like, I don’t feel like, I don’t feel intimidated by you. Ryan: Right, like I can share anything with you. Lucia: (laughs) Right, like sometimes that’s too much. Ryan: Because if you can do it, and if you can make it this far, and you can be this happy, and feel this rewarded….hey, maybe I can share my experiences and we can learn from each other. That is very important Bethanie: Do… I know you talked earlier about um, I didn’t write down her name, but ‘wesveer’….? Lucia: Yep! Ellen Westveer. Bethanie: Um, do you have someone you feel like you mentor too? Like, you um, talk with them, especially the kids in school and stuff? Lucia: Yeah, um I guess not one in particular that I can think of, but you know, I’m always willing to talk to students, like, I create friendships with students, as far as, like, you know… as far as like I have students coming in and saying, ‘hey, I just got this job’, or ‘hey I need to talk’, or um, you know sometimes we’ll meet up for dinner or something like that, so , I try to be encouraging to those others around me, um, you know and try not to ‘save’ people either as far as like, I wanna help but not to the point where I’m enabling them, or coddling them, because I mean, I’m like that with people with or without disabilities, too. It’s like, I’m not gonna do something for you that you can’t do for yourself. You know? I mean, so , um, but, you know, no one that I know, I mean, that I can think of, you know, I’m just, I just, you know… but I guess that’s not unusual for me to come into work and say, ‘oh I took one of my teen’s out to dinner’ or ‘one of my teen’s need to look for interview clothes so I volunteered to take them’… they’re like, ‘oh my gosh! Why would you do that?’ we spent two hours at JCPenney’s looking for interview clothes… so I guess that’s not uncommon that people would find that I did that because, you know, especially if I see like they need someone to talk to, or , you know, I try to share my Page 35 �experiences with them, especially those at risk youth, the ones that are um, you know, doing really bad in school, people have, you know, they have criminal records, stuff like that, um…. Ryan: Or come from broken families… Lucia: Yeah! Broken families! Ryan: These external factors that they don’t have control over Lucia: And say they hey, ‘people said this about me’ but look at what I did with my life, and look, you can do the same. So try to relate it back to them, saying, um, hey, I had a lot of barriers too, but, you know, don’t listen to what other people say, and you know, so…so that type of thing, and I do a lot of that in the class room, and one –on-one, so I don’t know if there is one particular person, but, like I said, I mean, you know, like my co-worker Catherine, she’s always like, “oh my gosh I can’t believe you took that kid out”, you know, and I’m like “well, she needed someone” or you know, or, “I wanted to be nice”, you know. So… Bethanie: Does it ever make you feel like your work never ends? Because, even outside of work, you’re doing things? Lucia: Yeah, it does, I mean sometimes, you know, I guess one of the things is I guess I love spending time with my niece and my nephew, who are teenagers right now, and so um, doing things with them, and one of them, my niece is finally coming around a little bit more. You know, my nephew thinks I’m the coolest person ever, so, I like that, he’s 14 and my niece of course, she’s seventeen, she thinks like, I don’t know anything but she’s coming around a little bit more. But, you know, it’s fun spending time with them and hearing about them, and what they’re doing and being able to share my experiences with them, experiences growing up and stuff like that. So.. .um, yeah, I mean, so … I got that Bethanie: So even mentoring things like that, like, “you should go to school” … Lucia: Yeah, and my niece struggles with that too, so we talk about that and um, what that’s gonna look like for her future, and you know, like, I talk about that generational thing that happens in my family. Her mom had her when she was 15. You know? She is 17 and struggling with certain things, she’s not pregnant, I mean, which is great, but she’s struggling with that teenage ‘stuff’, like, not wanting to go to school, having friends, you know, mom not understanding her. Ryan: Possibly seeking outlets for, you know, frustration and stress. Page 36 �Lucia: Yeah, exactly. So I mean, you know, I try to talk to her about that stuff, and be open about it and stuff, and you know, yeah, and tell her I expect, you know, I expect good things for her, because she’s, you know, a part of my family, you know. So. Yeah I mean, it’s still kind of interesting cuz like, my siblings, um, you know, my sister, my older sister, is trying to go back to school now, which is good, you know, my siter and my other sister, you know, I was the first one in my family from my parents from all sides to get my high school diploma, my college degree from both sides of the family, their grandkids, and they have a lot of, you know, but now other people are starting to get it too, which is cool! So now it’s not like it’s just me, but um, you know, now my mom went back to get her medical assistant, you know, to be a medical assistant, my older sister’s going to college now, my other sister’s going back to get her medical assistant certificate, so I mean now, people, you know, I try to be encouraging to them too. You know, as well, because you know, some of them fell into that hole. You know, have kids right away or go into the factory, or, you know, that type of thing. Ryan: Maybe an unfulfilling job, where as you’re the complete opposite, everything you do is for fulfillment and for this purpose. Lucia: Yeah! And sometimes it gets you know, tiring, but you know, I don’t know, and like I said, if I don’t have something to keep me busy, I get SO bored! (laughter) Like, I can’t just sit still. So, um, but I don’t know, but it does create anxiety as well. And stuff. But. I don’t know. I guess I feel like I just have to , I don’t know, I always, I don’t know, I’m more of the type, I wanna leave this earth knowing I’ve done some good for it. You know, whether it’s just one person or making sure that an automatic door is you know, around, or you know, something, I think we all have a purpose, but I think people aren’t always… Ryan: Proactive? Lucia: Yeah, proactive and trying to go and seek that. And we may never know what it is, I don’t know, I just feel like I can’t… like I just can’t sit around. And I think that it’s because people just expect me to sit around (group laughter). And that might be part of it! Those expectations that people have for me, I mean, cuz people um, growing up, you know, even aunts and uncles, some of them, you know, are like, ‘wow! You’re the one that went out and made something of yourself’ and people that I run into are like, ‘oh do you live with your mom?’ …’no?”, or “you have a full time job!? WHAT? “ you know, people don’t expect that, and so I think I like to prove to people that I CAN do it, and I think a part of it’s that. People just expect me to just sit around when I barely…I don’t. So. I don’t want any part of that going on. Page 37 �Bethanie: Do you find it , like, emotionally draining to like, encourage other people all the time? Or is it, kind of , like, empowering too? Lucia: I think sometimes it can be emotionally draining, you know, I think it’s when you can see what other’s can do and they give up so easily. And you’re like, seriously? It just makes me, I don’t know, it makes me super uncomfortable to be around those people, because, um, who are very negative all the time, or er, always have excuses, and you’re like, really? Cuz, I mean, I bring this up because my brother’s notorious for this. He always, and he’s the baby of the family, he’s 30, but he always makes excuses for everything and I’m like, seriously! I know people that can barely move their arms that are working. You know, why can’t you get a job? (pounding first on the table) , so I mean, I feel like I have high expectations for the people in my life because I know what they’re capable of, I can see it. And I’ve done it too, you know, I’ve done it before and I don’t know, maybe the expectations are too high? Cuz I get annoyed by It when they’re not doing it? And so it’s like, I don’t know, but yeah, I guess it can be draining too. Always trying to encourage people, or, oh! When I’m not happy, people are like, “what’s wrong?” and it’s like, I’m having a bad day! We can all have one of those. You know? Ryan: It seems like, though, um, like you said, um, about making a difference and in anybodies life whether it be putting in an automatic door opener, or taking someone out for clothes, it almost seems like it’s almost kind of a motherly role. Like, not necessarily that, but even more like, a mentor, I mean, I don’t know, not one person has to be mentored… but lets say you mentored an entire group of children that assembled in a gym. That’s gotta feel great! Just knowing that you change, or broke some stereotypical wall… Lucia: Yep yep. So even if they’re okay to ask someone later on, you know, instead of staring at the person, saying, “oh, hey can you tell me what life’s like for you?” you know? Yeah! That’s great! That’s something that I want. I don’t want people being rude or being afraid to ask those questions. You know? So even that, I mean, yeah. You know. Mmhm. Bethanie: Um, I know you said you went to, um, a conference in Las Vegas, with lots of people with disabilities (Lucia laughs) and you mentioned you work with people with lots of hidden disabilities, did you, how, um, like, do you just, like, what sorts of things are hidden disabilities? I guess I don’t know, like… Lucia: Yep! Like ADHD, ADD is a disability… a learning disability, whether it’s reading or writing, autism, um, Aspergers is a big one right now, um, the whole autism spectrum disorder, um, also, um, mental Page 38 �illness, depression, anxiety, really severe diabetes, as well, um, people that have trouble remembering, or concentrating…well that’s a part of the ADHD, concentrating, you know, fibromyalgia, it can be, um, you know, chronic pain, arthritis, I mean, there is just a whole bunch. Ryan: So would you say hidden disabilities roughly could be defined as anything other than physical? Lucia: Yep! Anything that impairs one or more of your major life activities. Is what a hidden disabilities is defined as. So anything, that um, like, walking, talking, speaking, thinking, sleeping, concentrating, you know, I mean, anything ‘-ing’? So what do you do with your daily life? Bethanie: Do you think things along the lines of OCD could be considered a hidden disability? What sorts, of, I don’t know if I’m allowed to ask this, but, teens that you work with, with hidden disabilities, like, what sorts of hidden disabilities do you help them with? Lucia: Well they have, a lot of them have a lot of the mental illness, so, all of the anxiety, all of the depression, um, bipolar, schizophrenia, those types of things, um, I’m seeing a lot of students with Asperger’s syndrome. Ryan: My roommate had that! And we went in blind, it was kind of refreshing to see, cuz like, you know, with, as you know, Aspergers is a social thing, but many Aspergers, um, effected citizens are like, high functioning. They’re like, really smart, brilliant. He was like, couldn’t really have a conversation, but he was excellent in school. Lucia: Yep, hyperfocused on stuff too, so maybe there are just certain things that they are drawn to, um, yeah, I mean, especially with Autism too, sometimes, I mean, it’s a social thing, so you might find someone that’s a little bit quirky, and you’re like, “something’s not quite right”… that’s not just autism that’s just mental illness, that type of thing. Whatever that might be. So you’re like, um, what’s going on with that person? Um, but, yeah, that one’s a big one as well, um, and learning disabilities as well. Students have trouble with reading, writing, math, um, dyslexia, all that stuff, so that’s what we find a lot of, is mental illness and learning disabilities, and that could be from a variety of things. You know, a lot of the kids who are , um, seen as bad kids, a lot of those kids have hidden disabilities as well but they act out because they don’t want people to know what’s wrong. - recording was cut off due to battery- Page 39 �Bethanie: So when you work with these teens that have like, hidden disabilities, um like what sorts of things do they struggle with like the most, or what sorts of things do they tell you that they struggle, besides like their disabilities, like how people treat them and things like that? Lucia: Yeah I think part of it is that just um, people knowing about them having a disability. Like they want to hide it. They don’t want people to know because of the stigma the disability has. People think that you’re dumb or that you can’t do certain things. And so they don’t want to stand out any more than they already do, or they try to stand out in other ways. By the way they dress, the way that they act, by the trouble they get in to. So I see a lot of that, as they don’t want to disclose very much, that they have a disability. So, but we try to talk to them that it’s important to disclose because that’s going to help you in college, to get support, that’s going to help you for your job to get support and accommodations, if you need help, um, writing or reading something, then you’re going to have to ask for it yourself, someone’s not going to go up to you and say: “hey, do you need help?”. So, and it could cost you your job. So that’s kind of where we come from, we’re not saying that you have to announce it to the world, but you need to know about your disability and how to best advocate for yourself. Ryan: That’s like really important though, you know, being able to trust someone enough, I mean it’s a little bit easier when someone can vouch for, “hey I’ve gone through this, or something similar” you know, because that’s a big thing, if you don’t want to share things, because you don’t trust somebody, like you said, you’re going to act out potentially, or you’re just going to ignore it and its going to hurt you down the line. Lucia: Well sometimes, I know that one of our interns at our office, and this is before (talking to Bethanie) your mom had come there, she actually went to Grand Valley State University and one of her professors didn’t believe her, that she had a significant learning disability. And so, he thought that she was lying. So, when she had talked about it, she said that sometimes people don’t believe you when you have a disability. But why would you lie about having a disability? Group: Mhmmm. Lucia: You know, that type of thing. So I know that she struggled with that, with a particular professor here, I don’t remember who it was. But he was also, uh, was a professor from another country as well. So, also when you think about disabilities in other countries… Page 40 �Ryan: Some kind of disconnect there. Lucia: Yeah. Ryan: Or you hope there’s a disconnect there (haha). Lucia: I mean usually I try to think that people hopefully don’t know or just don’t understand. So I would hope that people don’t do it just because they’re jerks. Ryan: Right, exactly. Lucia: So yeah, she um, so I know she had that issue here on campus, but disable student services helped her out too. So. Bethanie: That’s cool. Lucia: Yeah. Bethanie: Um. Lucia: Well I know that Grand Valley has been really involved, especially the Allendale campus, making their facilities accessible and available to people. Um, since I’ve been working at Disability Network, a couple years after, I know we were involved in accessibility stuff here on campus and some of our interns did stuff on campus here. I actually met with a guy a couple weeks ago who had an app, that he has and it shows and tells you of all the accessible areas of campus, and he’s trying to get it in other places. I’m trying to think, I believe his name is James Albright. And I know he started it here and there are students who actually went around and did assessments and stuff to put the information into the app. So, I mean there’s a lot of good things that are happening here. I think that even that Change U class I was telling you that I was involved in, they really did promote not only social, I mean all social justice issues, including disability, which is one of the reasons why I excited to be a part of it because most places, like I said, don’t think of disability. They just kinda think, “eh ya know, we’re not gonna” type of thing. Ryan: that it’s not important. Lucia: Or that it’s not important enough. If you think about it there’s a lot of other issues going on now too, everyone wants their issue to be front and center. Page 41 �Ryan: It probably drives people like you even further to spread the message, well not ‘the message’ but to influence as many people as you can in a positive way. Especially in kids, like you made the point earlier about if you can influence a child or a young adult versus a pretty set in stone with their thought process adult, it might not change. You know maybe you can mold their future a little bit, for the better. Lucia: Or if they treat someone else with respect when they come in contact with that person. Bethanie: What sorts of connections do you find with other people that experience discrimination, like the LGBT community? Lucia: I think with that, you feel some type of comradery, a little bit, especially in Michigan there are some groups that really align themselves, like disability groups, that really align themselves with the LGBTQ community. Michigan Disability Rights Coalition is a big one. Because they feel that what they experience is similar in a lot of ways, people could argue that a difference would be that disability is not a choice, and some people feel that LGBTQ is a choice. And that’s where some disability advocates are not so excited about being aligned in that way because they don’t believe in those things. I feel that in both of those groups, discrimination is powerful in both of those groups. I have friends involved with the LGBTQ community and we talk about how people view both of us, and one of my friends is a lesbian and we talk about how with her it’s so hypersexual, with her it’s “sex, sex, sex” but with me you couldn’t possibly have that stuff and we just think it’s funny how in both groups there’s this and that, but that we’re just people together, we’re just people in general. And so it’s interesting talking about the ways that discrimination takes place in both of our lives, because they can’t be similar. People have discriminated against her because of the fact that she’s lesbian, and people will discriminate on me for the fact that I use a wheelchair/have a disability. You know, those hurtful words too. “Gay/Retarded”, Retarded is a big one that the kids say. People say “that’s gay” and those are words you just don’t use. But if you go out and call someone the “N word” then that’s like oh my gosh! But if you call someone retarded, that’s okay, or if you call someone gay or using another derogatory word, that’s okay, but you can’t go out and use the “N word” because people are like oh my gosh! So why is one acceptable over the other. Or people that call little people midgets. Or they say things to them. We always have good conversations because the discrimination is so raw for both. Very hurtful. END OF INTERVIEW Page 42 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/99daf628cf05b6909e8e6ada80153a63.mp3 c219bd2aca9fa5332a98c6305d9526d5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Rios_Lucia Title A name given to the resource Lucia Rios audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rios, Lucia Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Billing, Bethanie Description An account of the resource Lucia Rios discusses her experiences with Spina Bifida and life in western Michigan. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination against people with disabilities People with disabilities--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-20 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2dfa906588273768e52129cec00ee861.pdf 5d76a774a6ab3644b5ac4d2139fa8e46 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Robert Perra Interviewers: Collin Wojtowicz, Bradley Bordewyk and Megan Perra Supervising Faculty: Liberal Studies Department Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/7/2011 Runtime: 00:49:33 Biography and Description Robert Perra discusses his perception of the history of civil rights in western Michigan. Transcript Collin- What is your first and last name? Robert Perra- (laughter) Robert Perra Brad- Can you tell us about your family members? Robert Perra- Are you talking about family of origin or are you talking about uh current family? Brad- Both. Collin- I guess uh, yeah I guess just start with origin and move to current. Robert Perra- Well uh, my family of origin, my mother was a mountain girl from Arkansas. My father was a little town uh guy from Westerly, Rhode Island. Um, war broke out, my father decided to drop out of high school and become a pilot. He was taught how to fly in a box with a stick believe it or not. And uh, his first plane was a triwing, so not even a bi-wing they had three wings to hold a guy up in the air. So he became a pilot in the US Army Air Corps and met my mother in Texas she was working for some company there. He knew her for a week. He went off to the Pacific to fight the war after marrying her after knowing her for one to two weeks. She went to Rhode Island. They had several children of those that are current or those that survived birth would be my oldest brother Frank, my sister Santa immediately, my brother Jim, myself, and then my youngest sister Ovita. Grew up in a military family, my father traveled all over the world and we kind of tagged along. He remained in the military for some thirty years, always found it interesting he retired flying, well he was in charge of communications at the Pentagon but worked in the communications field but he was Page 1 �also a pilot. From the tri-plane that he started at the beginning of the second world war he was flying B-52’s and F-16’s when he ended his career at that point. Is that the kind of information you were looking for? Collin- Yeah, yeah I think so. Yeah. Robert Perra- So that’s at least some of my background. Did my living or growing up in different places in the United States; Omaha, Nebraska, Massachusetts, California, Washington D.C., Spain. Traveled Europe, North Africa, so just kind of never stayed in any one place more than uh 3 to 4 years maybe. Brad- I guess we can jump around then. What places have you lived in throughout your life? All the different places. Robert Perra- Oh my. Well the ones that I would call, ya know, my major places, the ones that I really have some real strong memories off at air force base. Omaha, Nebraska my father at the time was part of the strategic air command Torhone air force base Madrid, Spain uh was before that. Eureka, California, Westerly, Rhode Island, Washington D.C., did uh three maybe four tours of duty there. So I mean those are the places that I can really recall well, um we did an awful lot of traveling as kids. Collin- Okay, um so I guess going off of that um. Like in terms of the places that you have lived, what was society like in that point in time? Robert Perra- What was society like? Collin- Yeah, I guess. Robert Perra- Well it depends upon my age and it depended upon where I was. Uh, in Spain, I was born in 1952 uh so I’m coming up on my 60th year. Uh, we were in Spain we started there in ’58 so that tells you, ’59, so that tells you that early on I was six or seven at that time. Uh, Spain had uh just come out of a uh revolution, a civil war to be specific. Uh, that particular civil war was over in the 1930’s uh and of course in the 1950’s the aftermath was still there. We were one of seven American families uh that were uh going to Spain if you will to try to forge a relationship from the United States and Spain. Um, the United States had just finished getting out of a conflict called the second world war, it was in the newspapers you might have read about it. Um, that was before obviously I was born, but uh that war was a war against fascists and fascism. Uh, I don’t know if you know what fascism is but basically uh fascism is when the government has all the answers and if you don’t uh believe in what they believe is the answer uh then you are either marginalized or in the case of uh uh Germany, uh killed. And the programs that they used were called eugenics. I don’t know if you know anything about eugenics? But, uh eugenics was the betterment of society and that meant that the group in power got to say who was the better. Um, all of that is kind of Page 2 �important in the sense that in Spain they were a little asyncratic with the rest of the world and um the guy who won the war in Spain uh was fascist. So the winners who had just um beat fascism and destroyed fascism were now going into a fascist country to try to become friends. And um, if you knew anything about Franco he was a good buddy of both Mussolini and uh Adolph Hitler. Uh, in fact if it had been later in his civil war he would have uh gone into the war on the side of Germany. So that kind of makes it a schizophrenic country. So I grew up early on learning a lot about what you are not allowed to do in a fascist country. Uh, if you weren’t Roman Catholic you were uh, you better keep your mouth shut. If you were not um, if you didn’t have all the answers, you can uh, you can kind of kiss it goodbye. Uh, the first person I saw killed was when I was 10. Um, I was walking away from the University of Madrid uh and a guy in a trench coat, I mean this sounds so surrealistic, uh comes over and picks me up and carries me away. So obviously I was being watched; they knew who I was. Um and when you looked over the guys shoulder um there were some protesters at the university, university students about your age. And a group of people came in with uh submachine guns and just opened fire. So you didn’t want to tell anybody in power that they were wrong. It was an extremely uh authoritarian country, very safe I mean it was really simple you knew that nobody was gunna hurt you because the penalty for that was death. So don’t j-walk. And uh the Spanish at that time were uh, were terrified of them. Uh now, just til the uh, this is kind of jumping to today because they’re just, but it gives you an idea of the, the mentality of the people in that time of the, the world. Um, and it was wonderful by the way to be in Spain. I loved the people, I loved being there. But as a kid a lot of what I learned I had to put together into what the hell does this all mean because that’s not, that’s not the way that I I grew up in this country understanding. And uh, if you were been listening to the news over the last uh four or five weeks uh it has now come out under Franco that if you were a nun, or priest, or lawyer, or a majestrate, or anyone of power. If you happened to be a pregnant woman during that time period, uh if they decided that you weren’t really fit to raise the child, they were able to mark you. And when you had the child, they would take the child from you and tell you that the child died in uh child birth. And then they would sell the child to somebody who they thought was more fit. Ya know, a good Catholic family, somebody with money, uh people that looked like them because if you didn’t look like them you were no good at all. Uh, and then the state would rearrange the uh birth certificate so it looked like you were just given birth. This is what a fascist country does, ya know, they make it up. And uh, that went on until 1973, so you have to understand that is part of their eugenics process. Um, the United states eugenic pro, eugenics processes started to die out in 1973 as well. That is when we would sterilize drug addicts, prostitutes, criminals, anybody that we didn’t think should have kids; we just ripped their ovaries out or take off their testicles. Uh except in North Carolina and South Carolina, they continued to do that until 2003. But, you have to understand what it means when we talk about fascism. Because that is the background of what I grew up in, and why when Page 3 �you start asking me questions about the civil rights movement. All of a sudden what I am looking at, this is, this is through the eyes of a 10, 11, 12, uh 13 year old who is looking at a world that people not only are telling you what you are believing, telling you what you should believe, but will either kill you or rip your balls off, or rip out your ovaries, or imprison you. If you don’t agree with them. Uh, this is the time in which uh Amnesty International was founded because in Portugal two people just raised a glass of wine and said to freedom. Both were arrested and never seen again. So does that giving you a little bit of the social culture that I grew up in? In Spain and in the United States. Collin- Definitely. Robert Perra- So in the United States uh ya know, from Spain we came to Washington D.C. And Washington is really the city that I remember the most because of uh my father’s three tours of duty we always came back to there. But the world was the same, same structure. Um, famous people who agreed that this was a good thing: uh Woodrow Wilson, Oliver Wendel Holmes (the jurist), Alexander Graham Bell, Lindberg, President Bush’s, the last one’s grandmother was a eugenicist. Collin- Really? Robert Perra- Um, yeah. I mean these, well ya know, the last President Bush was a fascist. He uh, he just, he had all the answers. He was, but he was he really was an effectual it doesn’t matter, he was also lazy. He took more vacations than any other president ever since the country was founded. Uh so, but but I’m jumping too many decades. The decade we are talking about is the late 50’s and early 60’s at this point. And uh, that’s what was my foundation if you will. That’s, that’s the world that I looked at. And uh, grew up very much becoming a uh in that period of time a radical uh inclusivist. That every human being has the right to hear and say what they wish to say and as long as it doesn’t infringe on the uh respect and or honor of other human beings that’s their right to do so. That there are multiple answers and that uh, that’s, that’s not quite what the American dream was at that point and still isn’t. But, uh that’s what we were hopefully moving toward. So I was there for four years. Um, society. I bought a baby lamb, from there was a lamb, uh uh a herder, a sheep herder next to the high rise that we lived in. And I bought one of the lambs and I brought it home. I paid a loaf of bread, if you are getting an idea of how starved people were. My mother brought in a ward from the uh orphanage, who used to steal the mashed potatoes and stick them in his pockets because he was only allowed to, could only afford one meal a week. He was, he roomed with me when he stayed with us. Um, my mother and I being the youngest, she would go and buy food and bring it to the orphanage. And uh, I remember once she left the box alone and uh one of the children uh trying to get at a Page 4 �can of beans and basically tried to bash another kids head in. That’s the society I grew up in. What does your society? Collin- Not quite the same as that. Robert Perra- Hmmm. Collin- (Laughs). Grand Rapids, Michigan, I’ve lived for my entire life so. Brad- Yeah. Collin- Yeah. Robert Perra- But you can imagine as a yound child food, equality, um that became passionately important to me. And the amount of, when we came back to the United States, let’s see it would have been four years so ’59, ’62, ’63, um the prejudice in this country or the segregation in this country was unbelievable. Uh, just so that you get a sense of of what that means. Uh first of all, my daughter who is sitting with you wouldn’t be allowed to be in this room. In fact she wouldn’t have been allowed to go to your classes. That's one. Umm, I was walking down the street a little town called Marshall, Arkansas. People were still wearing sidearms at this point, this was the 1960s. I had a cousin who was shot because he was cheating at pool, coroner said he had it coming, so I guess he did. Shouldn't cheat at pool. But I remember walking down the street, I must have been, eleven? An old woman walked by just, you know, like any town. She dropped a can, I picked it up, I put it in her bag, said good day and walked on. I was later pulled over, told that I should not interact with blacks. Collin- Really? Robert- Blacks were not allowed to be at my high school. My uncle probably insulted me the most when I was in eight grade and didn't even know it. Uncle Leo. Thought he was being a nice guy, but it gives you an idea of what we call “comfortable couch prejudice.” Umm, I went to a Catholic church at that time and uh, that was an important part of my life. Uh, t was Blessed Sacrament in Alexandria, Virginia. And the old Monseigneur who was Irish, and Irish kind of people are questionable too, you know, uh, they were, they assimilated because they were white but they had a hard assimilation. Umm, but Quinn, Monseigneur Quinn was a heck of a guy. He always believed that if he could spend a dollar twice he outta. And there was this little Baptist church across the street from Blessed Sacrament. And he hired the Pastor there to be the janitor, uh, at the church which I/he thought was a great idea and as an adult I'm thinking “very clever.” Uh, you know, if you really believe in church kind of stuff you're kind of spending your money twice [Collin-right] you're taking money from your church, you're giving it to another guy who's gonna run another church I mean that's pretty clever. It's kind of uh, his own little pyramid scheme of sorts but, uh, I just thought it was very clever. And uh, in doing this, um, the guy was always nice to us you know the guy all he did was he cleaned the damn church and the school, you know, but he always had a nice thing to say and he was just a really nice guy. And so in the Roman Catholic tradition uh, at Christmas time they have the uh, a midnight service, Page 5 �you know they just kind of get together and light some candles, throw some incense, do some songs, that kind of thing and uh, midnight mass, and that's not a very Baptist kind of a thing. You're not gonna burn incense in the Baptist church across the street. So this guy and his wife would come over to the midnight mass at Blessed Sacrament. And my family would have uh, a meal, um, after midnight mass so that means everybody from church or anybody who wanted to, would come over to our house for uh, a breakfast. And uh, we just invite anybody. Well I invited him and his wife you know, why not? And he came over to the house for breakfast and, delightful time, great guy. My uncle, the great liberal, uh, about three days later pulled me off and to the side, he wanted to congratulate me and tell me how proud he was of me that I could invite a black man and his wife to my home for breakfast without asking my father. And he never had an idea in his head what kind of a bigoted statement that was, or how insulting it was, because that had never crossed my mind, it wouldn't, uh, you know, but in his mind, you know, it was so subtle, that that idea of bigotry, of of exclusivity, of pushing aside. And uh, what can I say, that's that's the society on this side of the Atlantic. If you were poor you obviously had done something wrong to piss off God and you were actually worthless thank you very much good morning. And I remember my father and family actually getting up more than one time, well, twice where we'd be in a restaurant and a black family would come in and be told to leave, we don't serve your kind here. And it didn't matter where we were in the dinner we would get up and leave, we'd just pay the bill and leave, even if we hadn't received any food yet. So, my wife went to a segregated school in Sanibul Island, Florida, I went to a segregated school in Alexandria, Virginia. There's the society on both sides of the Atlantic, now, what do you need to know about it? Brad- Um, well I guess you left off with school, what was school like for you? High School and College. Robert- Wow. Well high school, um, by this time I guess I was a, by this time I was pretty, pretty aggressive and pretty much a of an activist, um, I went to a Catholic school for the first two years. Bishop [Ierton](sp). Um, my grades were okay, but I wanted to take French, they told me they couldn't give me French um, because they didn't feel that I fit the profile to take that course, so I figured they don't need my father's money, I left. Again, profiling was something by this time that angered me and I was a real jerk, I had my ideas of what the world should be and when it didn't go my way I flipped people off and walked on, pretty much like I do today to be honest. Um, so not too too different. So I went to a public school, Hammond High School where I enjoyed that. The end of my junior year my father retired and I moved to Westerly Rode Island um, and at that point I went to Ward Senior High School. I had a really hard transition um, Hammond High School was a couple of thousand students, it was a large school, uh, it was all white as I said and the same held to true I think with Ward Senior High School. Of course I couldn't imagine a black person in Westerly at the time, there may have been one or two I don't know. Uh, but uh, it was, I think my entire graduating class was under a hundred and so it was a real, real shock to move from a school that was inclusive to one that was very, very exclusive. Uh, very Italian and very Catholic. Um, joined the football team, uh at the first game we were forced to say the Lord's prayer so I wasn't part of the football team anymore. There was a Jewish kid on the team, they didn't give a rip that he didn't uh, wasn't Christian, they were gonna Page 6 �force him so I wasn't gonna be uh, associated with that. So the school immediately put me into counseling and told me my problem was that my father was a football player and that I couldn't live up to it. And I thought, well, this is an interesting psychologist. Asked my father if he had ever played football and he said no, he went to war. But, the psychologist had the answer for me. And uh, I finished uh, that year um, I was, the Vietnam War was going on at this time, that was a major issue. The uh, draft was going on. Uh, I had been eighteen so I applied for my conscientious objector status uh, that particular draft board as far as I know it never given anybody a CO. And uh, I think that was part of my, oppositional disorder that I had at that point in my life, that I still have. Um, and my father uh, I remember coming to the uh, the hearing, cuz you had to prove that that you didn't believe in war to be able to be giving a conscientious objector status, because Catholics believe in killing and so, if you're Catholic of course you're going to be a military you know, and uh, if you're Protestant they know you believe in killing, so, didn't matter you know? Uh, Quakers, there were a few Quakers in Rode Island they were given status but usually not very often, and not in Westerly. But my father came and gave testimony for me and I was given uh conscientious status conscientious objector status. I worked on campaigns I was politically very active, uh, at that time a democrat. Um, my uncle was the sergeant at arms of the United States senate, uh Hubert Humphrey was family friends, uh, with him and had met him. So you kind of get a sense that political life was something that that was not something that uh, feared us, or feared me at least. And when I graduated I uh, joined the Franciscan Order and I started being a postulate in the monastery or to be more accurate a friary and went to Saint Thomas More Scholastica to Catholic university and so that started my college education. Um, you have to jump years ahead after that I uh, decided that the monastery wasn't for me, moved back to Rode Island, met my wife she was my boss, I was working at a camp for the retarded, uh, children. Um, got married, took off to uh, Albertly, Minnesota. During all this time I had sang as a musician on a stage, I did church music , I had, you know, did whatever I wanted actually I was a cook and a chauffeur for a while to a priest, I mean, we paid the bills. And uh, Tom Driscoll was a great guy, that's the priest. Um, then a guy by the name of Curtis, uh, Father Curtis, uh, brought us to Albertly Minnesota, took a job there and decided that I really needed to get uh, more education. So, I was being a church musician and liturgist during a time immediately following uh, something called Vatican two, which was a, a change in the Roman tradition to become inclusive instead of everybody going to hell, maybe everybody has something to offer, and uh, so the Vatican two changed the liturgy from Latin to English or the vernacular. And while I was in the church in Albertly during the summers I drove to Collegeville, Minnesota about 250 miles north and I got a uh master's degree and bachelor's degree from Saint John's University in Collegeville in pastoral arts and liturgy. There's my college background at that point. From there I was hired by the Diocese of Kalamazoo. Uh, new Diocese, just founded and they needed somebody to run the office of Christian Worship so I came to Kalamazoo, Michigan. Didn't like the job, liked the place. Uh, went back to school, um, studied um, counseling at Western Michigan University, uh, still liked working with the down and out so uh, was the clinical director at a methadone maintenance clinic, worked with addicts and street people, um, got my doctorate in Clinical Psychology. Needed to do an internship so my wife and I moved to London, England and did my doctoral internship with the National Health Service of Great Britain. '86 came back worked for Blue Cross Blue Shield for a while, decided that they really weren't interested in people, left them real fast, uh, worked for the Page 7 �substance abuse counsel in St. Joseph county, and then uh, opened twenty years ago my own practice and have been in Sturgis ever since as a Clinical Psychologist. And for the last twenty years have uh, taught part time, Addictionology and Addictions at Western Michigan University. So, I don't know how you split, give me your education out from your life, but there it is, pull it out. Collin- Several answers have been questioned [questions have been answered] in one so we're kind of moving around. Robert- I'm sorry. Collin- Huh, no it's fine it it actually works out really well. Brad- Yeah I was gonna say we're down to like three or four left. Collin- Okay, um, okay, so, how about, you wanna do this one? Robert- How bout those Mets? Collin- Yea Brad- Did we already do that one? Collin- We might of yea. Collin: How was the way that you view yourself and your identity changed as you’ve grown older, like how have you identified yourself like 20 years ago compared to today? Robert Perra: I’m more sad and less angry. I think that one of the, one of the things about being a radical inclusivist and trying to be an activist is coming to an understanding of when a inclusivity and tolerance has a tendency to fail, um things that a would irate, make me irate as a child and young man, uh everybody just seems to think that’s how it is today, and so they don’t seem to have very much passion. When I was 15, as an example, this would have been 1987 [1967] when I was 15 um a guy who that you would probably only know as the name of a street uh was alive, his last name was king, and most people don’t really know what his message was, they thought it was a black thing, and it really wasn’t, it was a people thing, he believed very strongly that people should be viewed by their integrity and their creditability not by artificial factors, blacks were put aside but not only blacks, my goodness we throw people that were from Japan and descendents we had them in concentration camps we marginalize Jews, anybody who was not uh part of the main stream, you know, it’s a little like being in Grand Rapids and that phrase if you’re not Dutch you’re not much. Well add that little bit larger, because that phrase is that type of exclusive and its if you’re not us your nothing, and that’s what he was fighting against. When he was assassinated, first of all what he was working on when he was assassinated was a few months, what came to fruition came a few months later, but when he was assassinated a lot of cities went up in smoke. Um this would have been in 87 [68] and this is much different than the Detroit riots of 86 [67] that was a different powered kick that was um when a cop and 4 or 5 police officers were sanctioned to go beat up the blacks and that riot started because they were holding a funeral for a young man who was killed in Vietnam and the police decided to break it up and took the mother and the father of the young solider into Page 8 �custody and beat up his brother and the black community there so that was a very black thing but in in this when when Washington DC blew up uh congress ordered that no food could be sold in Washington DC because they were going to starve the uh um rioters out and uh that infuriated me uh as a 15 year old who didn’t even have a drivers license it really pissed me off so uh I ran down to the blessed sacrament of the church uh grabbed the white van we had a food pantry I filled the van along with two other people full of baby food, dippers, uh formula and uh choose to come into Washington DC through Rosslyn, if you had money you’re always going to be safe so if you go in through Georgetown you knew darn well the soldiers are going to be real careful because you’re probably either a senators son, a lawyers son, or a doctors son or somebody that’s important. If you come in across the bridge it’s too close to the White House you’re going to get shot. Now a lot of people did get shot bringing food in um so I came in through Georgetown then I broke through the barricades there to take food downtown uh in Washington I remember driving by the uh um White House of course there were machine gun nests all over the White House uh same over congress I mean we are talking about 50 calibers uh they’d rip you apart and uh uh national guard were out of course I’ve never driven before so I was stopping at stop lights as buildings were blowing up but that’s a different story that’s kind of just insanity but I was incents uh got the food took it too St. Stephens in the incarnation which was an Episcopal church downtown um unloaded it um got the truck a little bit further was pulled over and clabbered by a couple of police officers and thrown in jail uh the Swiss Embassy got me out because I was uh under the armband of the American Red Cross but by that time the American Red Cross had uh disavowed us feeding children they were of course apart of congress and congress was still wanting us to starve out the city (cough) international red cross they changed our armbands so it had something weird on it pulled me out of jail, got two more runs then they found out I was only 15 so I got shipped back to Alexandra where my father picked me up. Um but there’s passion, today 1 out of 6 children go hungry out of the United States and nobody gives a flying shit. That’s a difference, the initiative for the poor people’s campaign which was what king was working on when he was in Atlanta getting ready for it. I went downtown I, I brought people it I was building shanties on the uh, in, in the city we were building temporary housing for poor people, uh the campaign of course was attempting to have legislation uh past an anti poverty legislation, an anti poverty legislation occurred uh you know would occur what that basically was saying not that poor people would be given money but that every American would have the right as any other American to compete on their credibility, their value, and their quality and that just because you were born poor your shouldn’t remain poor, that’s in essence what that entire group legislation meant and uh it was flawed and I mean I kept building the houses uh I was very much an activist and fighting for that. I remember Abernathy coming by uh I was just putting some nail in, told you I was always oppositional his aid looked at him and said they needed to get back to the Georgetown which is a 4 star hotel, pissed me off, he awet to be down in the shanties, I was so I yelled out to him and said “oh Rev. Abernathy, this one’s for you, ready for you to move in.” Got some real filthy looks, of course I’m just a white kid what the hell do I know. But there’s injustice everywhere in that sense and he went back to his 4 star hotel. The Legislation didn’t pass, and what people don’t recognize or understand and and I guess I was lucky because uh I remember my uncle talking about it I remember Hubert Humphrey talking about it, I remember my father talking about it, it basically said that in the law and under the law all people are treated equally as much as humanly Page 9 �possible because back then as even a lot today white privilege is what counts or right now we don’t have white privilege anymore its green privilege and uh that’s the direction that it’s been going well it failed and I’ve still worked for justice as far as I can but people don’t seem to have the passion. In the 1990s I had a little bit of hope uh the SNL crisis uh that’s when some bankers in the savings and loan um fraudulently ripped off a good number of Americans and uh the attorney general went after them um put a quit good number of them in jail. The paper trail when you do banking is always clear so I mean when you screw up in the banking, if they are interested they can put you in jail. Its its its very clear um now we are in 2009 we have another banking crisis its 70 to 700 times worse than the SNL there were three FBI warnings to congress. Bush didn’t give a crap, so guess what you know how many people have been legislated against or I mean uh uh taken to court for that action under Mr. Obama’s rule? Zero. It’s ok under Bush it would have been zero too. Um they screwed up how many millions of people, made them homeless and the attorney general of the United States, the President of the United States and the Legislator of the United States and the judiciaries of the United States don’t care. That makes me sad, because you see the paper trail is there. A first year law student can follow it you don’t have to be a lawyer and that’s the end result of the whole issue of the poor people’s campaign and the poverty, anti poverty legislation that’s what it was trying to attend to but today in this country that’s why you get the match on Wall Street at the moment. And they call 99 1 percent of the people have the green and there above the law. And according to the President well as far as we can see his eyes are green and his attorney general has green eyes too and so do all the republican candidates so this isn’t uh Democratic bashing exercise. So how have I changed? I guess I’ve changed by becoming instead of passionate and angry, sad and cynical, I think I liked myself better when I was angry and passionate. Don’t know if that really answers your question. Collin: Nope yeah mhm. We are very organized Robert Perra: I’m sorry I must be boring the crap outta you. Bradley: How does living in West Michigan, How does is it different then the other places you’ve lived? Robert Perra: Well when we moved to Kalamazoo and decided to have children there were two things I wanted for them that I didn’t have, one was I wanted them to have stability, I have very in fact I have no childhood friends, I am a nomad um I have no roots, um I have family I don’t see very often, uh we were made hyper independent and um not very interdependent on the society and what I wanted for my children was to have roots to say I’m from here you know, uh I have kids that I went to school with, I know who I went to my elementary school with my high school my college. Um I wanted people, I wanted them to have a sense of lifelong understanding so I made a choice to live in Western Michigan because number one it was small It was quiet, and the Alexandr, uh Richland and Kalamazoo area, uh It was relatively safe. Um when I was in high school in uh uh Alexandria, Virginia um there were some interactions between blacks and whites. uh uh whenever Hammond High School or TC Williams um played George W, George Washington uh there was always a riot afterwards in the stands, blacks and whites would be beating the shit out of each other, didn’t matter who won. And so you would get things in the newspaper uh “TC Williams won on field GW won in the stands.” I mean it was that Page 10 �that’s craziness, people were shot fairly regularly in Washington DC. And it never even reached the news paper. uh Washington DC growing up was one of the most corrupt cities in the world had to many police officers and to many police forces and none of them did anything because not only did you have the FBI but then you have the secret service and then you had a military service for each branch of the government and then you have Washington DC cut in four and each of the four had their own police department now half of Washington is from Virginia so the Virginia state police would come into one half and now the other half is from Maryland and so the Maryland state police would come in, now we also had the executive police because the executive police were responsible for the diplomats and of course they have authority there and then of course the white house has its own staff so we have there protection. And the judiciary. Well you have so much you have none. And so when I decided to come here I wanted to be in a place where I was somewhat comfortable that my children would wake up one morning and still be alive. Now that sounds very really strange, but that’s why I grew up and raised my children in Michigan because drive by shootings although they happen they don’t happen often. And uh the wagon train with the Indians doing the drive by shootings uh uh with arrows that hadn’t happened sense the 1880s so it seems safe. Now once my children all grow up and leave, I’m not certain where my wife and I will uh move too. I’ve always liked North Africa and London was great fun and we like Florida and but we stayed in this part of the world for the safety of our children. Is that what you really wanted? Bradley: yeah, that kinda answers the last one too. Collin: mhmm, I think, I think that’s it I believe that concludes the interview Bradley: yeah Robert: Now did you get anything that you can use out of this? Collin: yes we did. Robert Perra: Good! END OF INTERVIEW Page 11 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4366b1146376d5f6535fe8b073446aff.mp3 4ad6d35e22cbb5dbfa94840219bcec08 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Perra_Robert Title A name given to the resource Robert Perra audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Perra, Robert Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Wojtowicz, Collin Bordewyk, Bradley Perra, Megan Description An account of the resource Robert Perra discusses his perception of the history of civil rights in western Michigan. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-07 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b1c0b68ede4de520b37a6a69daa6608a.pdf d8d9bddd88c90ede36718c3e84dfeae4 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: James Morton Interviewers: Seph Morkes Supervising Faculty: Kim Buechek Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/16/2012 Runtime: 00:41:58 Biography and Description James Morton talks about his family’s experience immigrating to the United States during the big flight of Puerto Ricans of the 1950s. He also discusses his experiences with discrimination in both Queens, New York and West Michigan. Transcript Seph: I am Joe Morkes. I am interviewing James Morton. James, would you, uh, be so kind as to tell me about yourself? James: How much do you want to know? Seph: Well, I’ll probably go through it, but um, any, anywhere you want to start. Because I’m going to ask you where you were born, family life, stuff like that. So you could just take it from the beginning. James: Well, I was born November 11, 1986, uh, in Saint John’s Hospital in Queens, New York. But I was raised from the very next moment in Manhattan. I stayed in Manhattan until I left for college at the University of Buffalo in New York. And then I currently live in Allendale, Michigan pursuing my Masters Degree at Grand Valley State University. I am the son of James Edward Morton, Sr. and Carmen ***. Uh, my mom is of Puerto Rican background born in, um, Guadal, Puerto Rico. And my father is of African American descent and was born in Brooklyn, New York. My parents split when I’m.. Must have been around 2 or 3. So I was raised in a primarily single parent household however my dad was still around, so.. Weekends and that kind of thing. Uh, raised predominately by women. Ah, my mom, my older half sister, and my grandmother, and an assortment of cousins and aunts. Seph: Ok. Um, now you said, uh, your mom was of Puerto Rican descent? James: Uh huh, yep. Page 1 �Seph: Now, is she a first generation, um, Puerto Rican? Um, how was that, like how? James: I guess I would be technically first generation, born here. Seph: Ok. James: I guess I don’t really know how the first and second, um, works. I guess I would be first generation, American born, Puerto Rican. But she was born there, again, in Guadal, Puerto Rico, and I think she moved here, I think she moved to New York when she was 8 years old. Seph: Ok. James: So, during the 50s, during that big flight of Puerto Ricans… Seph: Gotcha. James: … to the United States. Seph: Ok. Um, now, um, are you bilingual, then? James: Naaa, not officially, I wouldn’t say I’m fluent in Spanish but I know when it’s being yelled at me. Seph: Ok. James: No, I mean I’ve obviously picked up some given that half of my family speaks it but I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t claim that I’m bilingual but as far as Spanish, that’s the closest other language that I know. Seph: Mmm hmm. Ok. Um. Now I guess, um. Do you know where, um, your parents met? Um. James: Yea, um, they actually worked, um, I think it was landlord and tenant court for Manhattan. Um. My dad, actually, I believe substituted for her supervisor one day, something like that, and that’s how they initially met. And then, um, they met, um, in the criminal court system. The United Courts of New York. Seph: Ok. Very cool. Um. James: Oh, the Unified Court System of New York. I think that’s what it’s officially called. **** Umbrella companies. **** Seph: Now how about, um, childhood, like as far as schools? Um. Did you go to a public private school? How about telling me a little about that? Page 2 �James: I guess for my first bout with schooling, I went to this program that they had started because my mom worked for the court system so they had this program called “Fed Kids” which was essentially a day care program for employees of both New York State and the Federal Government, uh, essentially day care for civil servants. And, uh, I must have started that, I mean, I may have been, two or three I guess, it’s at whatever age you start interacting with people. And, uh, I mean, that was obviously finger painting and toys. But then I started going to Catholic school in pre-kindergarten. And I assume that must have been, maybe, that might have been three, maybe three into four, because I have a late birthday in November, so. I was always the youngest kid in my class for the most part. And um, did pre-K and Kindergarten at Immaculate Conception School, which was very old school Catholic, and complained about it pretty much every day. I used to stage escapes. I was once found, uh, trying to push open the door at the front of the school. Meanwhile my class was on the 2nd floor, so, no one knows how I got away. Um, and then went to public school for 2 years. That’s where I learned how to fight and to curse and how to be a terrible human being. So I actually volunteered to go back to Catholic school because I realized I was pretty much on the fast track to hell at that point. And, uh, in 3rd grade returned to Immaculate Conception School. It was a K through 12, no a K through 8, and stayed there until I graduated in 8th grade. Then I went to LaSalle Academy, which was a Catholic High School, um, run by the Christian Brothers, which were started by, uh Saint Jean Baptiste de LaSalle and, um, I really enjoyed it. Um, my four years it was one of those, it was, it was very tough obviously, it was a very particular years in a person’s life. Definitely grow and learn a lot. Um, girls were introduced into the mix sorta, but it was an all boy’s school, so, uh. Actually, it’s in hindsight, I actually appreciate that because I feel like it actually kept me focused. And um school wasn’t so bad. Then after that, I went to the University of Buffalo for 5 years. Now I’m at Grand Valley for grad school. Seph: Ok. Um. Then, uh, I’ll probably get a little bit more specific with that, um, as, I might, I might jump back to, um before college, but uh, as far as University of Buffalo, uh, what made you decide on that? What made you decide to go to the University? Was it something that was expected? Was it something that you… *** James: Essentially, uh, I feel that universities and colleges, at least from, I guess the New York perspective.. From like a city like New York where there’s a high demand for higher education, um, and is such a financial center of the world that going to college, it was expected. I mean, I uh, I would have to say that I went to school with a lot of people at, um, at Buffalo that probably were not cut out for college but you weren’t really given too many other options. I remember even for my graduating class I think there were only two or three guys that were just going straight into the work-force, you know, like obviously, I feel it is generally less common, um, but I feel just like in a Metropolitan area like that that Page 3 �it’s, even, you know less so. And um, I actually chose Buffalo kind of, it sounds terrible, but um we have the State University of New York application, but um, because we have our state schools, and you’re supposed to choose 4 schools. I had Stonybrook University was my number one. Um, the University at Albany was my number two. And, uh, SUNY Gennesea *** which was in the middle of nowhere but is a fantastic school was my third. Those were the solid three, like, those were the ones I really wanted to go for and then I was all like, I need a fourth one and I heard Buffalo was alright. So I put down Buffalo and um I get in. They’re interested. They think, um, they think I’m doing um, I could do well. And I got into, um, well I got into all of them actually and just decided… I feel like Buffalo would be a nice change, that it would be different and um, and it’s also the second largest city in New York and I felt um it would be less drastic of a change from home to Buffalo. Uh, that was entirely incorrect. Um, the difference in population, I think… New York City was somewhere around 9 million and Buffalo was about 2 or 3. Seph: Right. James: Which is sounds foolish, but. But uh, it made a huge difference. Also it was an entirely different walk of life. But um, I mean, it was interesting and I’m glad I ended up there. I mean it obviously had its ups and its downs, but. I would say generally it was a nice second home, you know, I’d say for the time being. Seph: Um. When you were in high school, did you play any sports? Or even before? James: No. I guess, um, as far as through the high school, um, theater club, um like drama club was actually my big thing. But, if I had a say a sport throughout high school, um, martial arts I guess would be my sport. Um, I wasn’t really into it for the competitive purpose. I was more into it, I guess, I mean obviously for self-defense. Not that I had really any, any issues with that. It wasn’t like I had the uh hard knock life upbringing, but, um, I really respected the idea and the culture that kind of came along with it, so. It became a really big part of my life. I kept up a little bit during um, my undergraduate at Buffalo, but, just through all the other stuff that I had to do, it kind of died down a little bit. Seph: Was that, um, something you did outside of school? James: Yea. I, uh, I took Kung Fu at a school. It was, um, it was called **** Kung Fu, it was out of Chinatown. And um, I think their system is like the Black Tiger system or something like that. That was like their specialty. But, um, almost every Kung Fu school does like the, they almost have like the geneds of, you know, like Kung Fu, and then I, um, actually started taking up this martial art called ******** from Indonesia. And um, I learned that. One of my sister’s really good friends, he was a uh, a teacher from the Warrior System. Which is this international group of martial artists that, basically take a Page 4 �little bit from different forms of martial arts and put them together because they feel that all martial arts systems for the most part are pretty incomplete. So, put the strengths of all of them together and put a little bit from here and there and you’d make one martial artist that is better rounded than someone who is married to one system. And uh, eventually got exposed to ****** and it’s such an, it’s such a little known system here that he uh basically started hand-picking students to kinda just start working sort of like out of his house was like the original studio. And um, that’s, uh, that was the last system that I learned from. And I really enjoyed it. I still like, remember some stuff, but um. Yea. So that was my sport, I guess. No football. Unlike everyone, uh, every other guy in Michigan. Seph: And that, um, last system… That was when you were in college? James: No, no, no, that was, uh, I’d say junior and senior year of high school. Seph: Ok. Um, now theater… Is that something that uh, you did all throughout high school? James: Yea, for the, for the most part, uh, I was pretty heavily involved from the get-go. I heard it’s where you met girls, so… Kinda jumped at that. But acting had always been something that I liked doing. I did it a few times, actually, before high school. Um, and I don’t know. I guess it just drew me in and I felt like I was actually pretty good at it so. It was something to do. Seph: Ok. Very cool. And now you said a way to meet girls was a, but you were at an all boy’s school.. James: Right. We had girls come from the other, come from the all girls’ schools. ****** girl spots because…Yea, we didn’t want any guys in dresses. Not that there’s anything wrong with that. Seph: Um. Ok. Let’s uh, I might be back to some of that stuff in a little bit. James: Ok. Yea, that’s fine. Seph: Um, but, as far as Western Michigan goes, how did you end up coming to Michigan? How did you end up figuring on Grand Valley? And just tell me about that. James: Uh. I guess I would have to say, uh, embarrassingly enough, my biggest motivation was, I saw Grand Valley compete at a cheerleading Nationals in Daytona. Uh I guess it was what? 3… Yea, about three years ago, I guess. And um, I just saw them and kind of thought cheerleading was a sport that I got into really late in college. Um, I played rugby before that, as you know, and, um, I just thought, well I mean I had thought about obviously school after college, especially because I was a history undergrad, so… There’s not much that you can do with that by itself and I decided that well, maybe I can get this cheerleading thing to start paying for some of my education and I looked into Grand Valley and found Page 5 �that they actually had a Masters of education program for adult and higher ed. It was basically half education, half history. I thought “Wow, that’s actually pretty perfect.” Because I think that I should have some sort of education background as well as history. And, um, I basically, I had a talk with one of my old teammates. I was just looking for something new. I mean at that point I had pretty much outgrown Buffalo. And I wasn’t ready to go back home yet. Not out of an I don’t want to move back in with, you know, my mom, but more of a, I felt like I still had some growing to do and I didn’t think, I didn’t think I was going to get, um, I was going to get back home, so… I had even contemplated just moving somewhere, like maybe like Nebraska, or you know, like one of those white states that we don’t know much about. And then Michigan came up with Grand Valley, so I thought “Grand Rapids? Michigan? Never heard of it. Maybe I should.” ***** should do it. I wanted to see if I could transplant myself to some place and um, you know, make it work. Work around it and see how the rest of the country was and get out of my New York state of mind, so… That’s essentially how I kind of ended up out here. Seph: Ok, and uh… I don’t mean to take a step back, but you mentioned that you cheer. James: Yea. Seph: You mentioned rugby. Um, and a little bit about outgrowing Buffalo… But um, taking a step back to Buffalo, um, how was your experience there? Um, your undergrad experience. Uh, you know, can you tell me any funny stories or anything you want? James: Right. Seph: About how you got into dabbling with rugby and how’d you get into cheer? James: Well, I guess I’ll tell the rugby and cheer stories first because those are, I feel like, the easiest ones. Um, rugby had been one of those sports, growing up in New York City, we had field sports, but not to the same degree as like, I guess, places with space for them. So, rugby had been um that sport that I would randomly catch on tv, you know, like, other like random cable, you know, ESPN like channels that show, those kind of, those kind of channels. And um, I saw rugby and every time I saw it, it was just so exciting. You know, I instantly was just instantly enthralled, just completely, just, it would, all my attention would be invested in rugby and I thought it was the most amazing sport. But, I guess in a sense, coming from the United States, it’s not around the corner, you have to kind of look for rugby. It’s a little more difficult to track down. And um, I would have to say a big downside to places like New York City is because of how, I guess, urban they are. It’s so expensive to do quote unquote like special sports. Like hockey, um, I think to just to join a league is like $3,000 a year or something like that. And that’s just, Page 6 �that’s just hockey, which is something people around here just do for fun. So, um, so rugby had always been something that interested me and then I ended up in Buffalo. Found out that they had a rugby team. And um, one of my fraternity brothers was on it. And so, talked to him and he was just like “Oh, you could come out to a practice.” And that’s how, you know, I got involved. Uh, really loved it. Had nothing, nothing negative about it at all. Like I mean, obviously, there’s like that rowdiness that comes along with rugby but, I didn’t mind it with them so much because they were rowdy, but they were good. So, it was nice to, it was, it was almost like cheating to instantly like walk onto a good team. And, um, obviously, I wasn’t on the A team, like you know, initially, just, you know, kind of went on and the coaches just said to go out there and figure it out. So… I mean it was fun. Um. It was a good season. And then, I, uh, dabbled in um, stand-up comedy, actually, for a while. And the president of our University of Buffalo Stand-Up Comic Society, the acronym UB SUCS, which they never caught on, um, he shows up to one of our meetings one day and he’s telling us, he’s like “Oh, I’m gonna go out for cheerleading tomorrow.” So we’re just like “Wait, what are you talking about?” and apparently his roommate had gotten approached by a girl in the gym. She said that she was a cheerleader and he should come out. So he goes home, and he’s like “This girl asked me to try out for cheerleading so this kid Andrew is all “I’m gonna go out and do it, you know, tell me the time.” So I hear about it, and I’m just like “That’d be brilliant for material. Like I should go to, like I should have a story about cheerleading tryouts that’s like ridiculous, obviously.” So I went there totally for the wrong reasons. Went there entirely to just drudge the hell out of them and make jokes about it and like, actually, you know, just try to push this, like, comedy career, um, off of it. And, um, from day one, it was one of those, like wow, this is actually pretty cool *** and, um, eventually and I didn’t know *** These are teammates that I still value their friendship, like amazingly, today. They’re just, um, some of, I would say, the best friends I ever made in my life and it’s probably how I got pulled into cheerleading. It was basically on a, not even on a, not a dare, just like on a joke, essentially. It was a joke and then I stuck with it. Um, but as far as my experience in Buffalo, I mean, I feel like, for the most part, it was definitely a generic experience, you know, you get like exposed to drinking and stuff, you know, very early. And everyone is like “Oh my God, this is awesome!” But I was part of that, um, small number of people that, I would say after a little bit, I was all like “I’ve had enough of this and I think there’s more to life than getting drunk every night.” And um, it definitely put a lot of weight on me to better myself. Um. Not like I was going down a bad path, but just, um, it definitely gave me the realization that if there was something out there that I wanted, I just had to go out and take it. And I had to work at it. And, if you put the work in or you put, or if you have the drive enough, like anything is possible. Um, I would have to say Buffalo, the University of Buffalo, was a fairly diverse school. Um, majority white, as, I would say that Buffalo is almost like a mid-west colony. So it kind of reminds me of schools around here. But, um, very diverse. Even Page 7 �internationally. Um, my freshman year, I lived on the international floor of my dorm which was because they ran out of rooms for normal people, so.. I ended up there and my roommates- one was from Turkey and one was from Hong Kong. And that was sweaty, so… ** laughter ** So I mean, it was, it was a little rough- the transition in the beginning. It was, I would have to say, one of those first nights in college. Just wasn’t awesome, but, um… I remember, actually, the 2nd night of my college career, um, my roommate had gotten invited to a party at the German house, um, on campus, well, not on, like right off campus and that was, I guess, if anything, that was essentially, like my first party of my freshman year, and everyone was from a different country and like it was, but it was cool. You know what I mean? It was just very different, um, and obviously I thought that I was going to meet like different people at college. Had no idea that it would be like that different so quickly. And, um, then, once I started getting into the swing of things, I started meeting everyone, made stupid freshman mistakes that I will spare from this interview, but, uh… I mean it was, it was good. There was no, um, I didn’t have any I guess, terrible situations, um… I tried the fraternity thing my first semester. You weren’t supposed to because first semester freshman aren’t supposed to pledge at UB. Um, so I thought I was such a bad ass, and… But then I mean, it was weird though, because I remember being in it, and I was in there for maybe 2 or 3 weeks, and I mean, we’re talking about like sleepless nights, just up late doing stupid shit the entire time and um, I like went to, uh, … the fraternity I was pledging had a party and they were just um, ripping on these girls like for no reason. Just ripping on these girls going just like *** our pledge master actually came down and he was like super drunk and he was talking about like these girls that he just, like, “Oh, I got her to blow me, you know, and I just tossed to her the side and like whatever…” And I realized, and I was like “I think the fraternity thing is really cool and all but *** misconstrued notions on how awesome it is.” Um, but I just thought, um, what means more to me? Getting letters on a shirt or being associated with these guys and I told *** “No disrespect, but I don’t think this is for me.” I mean, it was primarily because I thought that they were just terrible people and I figured, like, a fraternity is, like, it, it runs deep. It’s like the closest thing to a family that you have. I don’t want to be “your” family. It’s just not, I don’t, I don’t stand for the same things “you” stand for. So, um, I quit them. Obviously, I was like blacklisted from them the rest of my college career. And uh, then I ended up joining a business fraternity the next year. Um, the next fall, actually. And that was Alpha Kappa Psi (sp??) and I finished through that one. Um, it was co-ed so it was a little bit different. A lot cattier. And um, I mean I liked it because it was a fraternity and I still got that sense of brotherhood and had hilarious stories. I mean I, I feel like I have like classic fraternity stories with um AK Psi (sp??). Um, but I felt like it was a fraternity with purpose. You know, I mean, it wasn’t just a matter of, it wasn’t just a social group, it was a uh, it was a coming together of like-minded people for, I guess, to ah, pursue like personal passions and personal like motivations and um… I really enjoyed it and… Yea, I mean Buffalo was interesting because it wasn’t New York. It Page 8 �wasn’t like New York City at all. Um, it was an entirely different walk of people. Um, one of the girls, actually, from AK Psi (sp?), she told stories, joked around, but she wasn’t joking about how I was her first black friend. And um, actually, um, I dated one girl while I was up there and she was saying that I was pretty much like her third black friend or something like that. Like it always came up. *** Yea, exactly. And um, you know? It was, it was, it was the time, I mean, it was one of those… Yea, I guess class happened, um, for the most part, I was just figuring out who I was and stuff. And um, I guess ironically, um, I kinda became who I was while I was there but I didn’t realize it until I got here. Because, if anything, Michigan has been like the final exam and it’s… I would have to say it’s tough to go somewhere new and not… I guess, and not assimilate completely because, I guess I’ve reached a point in my life where I know certain things about myself that I like or at least I, that I value in my head as good. And… Those are things I just won’t let go of, you know what I mean? I mean it’s… on some degree it could be considered stubborn but I feel… I guess because I’ve been transplanted a couple of times now… You start to grab onto the things you feel identify yourself. You know what I mean? Um, I mean… My skin’s brown, so that’s always a *** for the identity issue but there are certain ideals and certain things I hold, I guess, I guess, I would say I hold dear to my heart that I feel um, you know, define me as a person regardless of like I guess the obvious stuff or you know, like, where I’m from. There’s just like the characteristics or the, uh, principles I hold… that um, I guess you don’t find everywhere. I didn’t realize that was one of those, I thought, I just assumed everyone learned the same set of values— some people just choose to ignore them. But, I have also learned that’s not always the case. And there are other values, you know, there are other values out there that, I mean work for some people, and there are others things that I’ve seen that are good, but, you know, aren’t for me necessarily, so… Seph: Um, actually that leads *** into, um, I mean, how would you, how would you uh, describe your own identity? James: In what respect? Seph: I mean, um, well you were just talking about how there’s things you hold onto and uh make you, I guess, the person that you see yourself as… James: Ok, yea… Seph: And I mean honestly, that could be whatever you want to do with that question. James: Well, I mean, I guess, uh, I’d have to say, I guess there’s, there’s two identities I feel we all have. We all have our American identity and then our universal identity in my opinion, um… As far as identifying myself, I’m… African American, Hispanic American, American American. And uh, I mean, Page 9 �but I would have to say, universally I’m I guess, in a sense it was like hard to accept, but like at the end of the day, um, as far as like upbringing goes, it was very ordinary, um, you know, I feel like I, I could be wrong but I feel like I had an upbringing just like anybody else, um… You know, forced to go to church every Sunday. You know, hating on it every Sunday. Um, you know, learning about all these traditions and all these, I guess, um, traits of gentlemanly conduct that were like infused into my brain and the thing I didn’t get was I didn’t see it anywhere else and I didn’t know what was like going on. And um… Oh, I forgot to mention this before… My dad is, um, my dad is 88 years old, so.. my dad’s up there. And um, I mean, truth be told, it was like one of those things that, when I was younger, you don’t notice the difference but I realize, now that I’m older, THAT definitely was like a huge thing because like my dad’s coming from like literally the old school. He’s coming from a very, like, almost structured gentlemanly uh code of conduct, you know, that we don’t have anymore and you know, I mean it really is.. um… And now we do the whole “We know what you meant.” Or you know, just get to the point… Like we almost have less patience for this almost societal dance, I guess that *** you know like being a gentleman is. And um, a lot of it communicates in the way that I dress and a lot of it communicates in um, like formal attire and stuff. Like I don’t *** all the weird little rules and stuff, and I don’t mean this in a condescending way at all, most people my age don’t know that they would even have to look for rules, you know, regarding this. Um even uh, even I would have to say, uh, like dating… There are certain things I just um, won’t do.. One thing that apparently blows the mind of everyone around here is um, I guess I come from a background where, let’s say I have a friend and he’s in pursuit of Girl X, or something like that. No matter how beautiful, or how amazing Girl X is, my friend has made it clear that is the girl for him and he’s chasing after her… I’ll, I’ll help him… I won’t pursue that. I feel like it’s ungentlemanly to go for another man’s girl, in a sense. And I don’t mean that in an ownership way at all. But I feel that it is more like a respect from one individual to another. Um, also, um in treatment of women… I feel like there’s, I’d have to say I’m an owner of like a modified chivalry. Um, I feel that women should be respected. Uh, and as far as, uh, female roles in society, I’m entirely against subservient women, um, I mean, I came from an all women’s household so, um, I obviously have a different view of the abilities and strengths of women and um… I truly feel that there, um, biologically obviously there’s a lot of difference, but, as far as ability goes, I mean if you’re thinking about sports, yes there’s a few hurdles that girls have to get past that, um, men don’t, but… um, for the most part I feel, you know, they’re, I guess almost to an extent *** should almost treat women better than men because I’m coming from a different, I’m almost educated from that old school on how to treat women. Um, but even in, um, the way you approach people, um, like not gender specific at all, uh, one thing I notice I do is, if I’m wearing a baseball cap or like that… When I talk to someone, like, let’s say at a store and I need to ask someone a question, I always take off my hat. And it’s a very weird thing. I mean even I noticed it Page 10 �like once in a Subway, you know, like restaurant. I take my hat off and ask someone a question, or like I tell them my order type of thing. I just feel there are certain little, there are certain little like, quirks to me that I um attribute to my upbringing and stuff. I mean it’s one of those, at first I thought it was weird, but I guess now, I guess now that I don’t see it so much I kind of value it as being a part of me. Um, little stuff like that. I’m sure there’s thousands of more little instances but, I mean I guess I’d have to identify myself as a generally good and moral person. Obviously not perfect at all. Um, but I feel that generally my motivation is the betterment of myself on the, you know, universal scale- like, so, morally, academically, professionally, etc. Um, and, I mean, as far as cutthroat nature, especially in the business world today, I’m just not about that. I, I’m.. I guess I’m more, I guess I’m more focused on like harmony and peace… Not in a hippie way, but, obviously I accept that, you know, things can’t always be happy… Things can’t, no, everyone can’t always win. But, you know, there’s no excuse for mistreating other people. I mean, even if they deserve it sometimes, I mean, essentially there’s, you know, there’s some occasions where there, *** essentially but, um, like just little stuff like being rude.. I just feel life’s too short to treat anyone less than anyone else in a sense, you know. Don’t just talk to people when you want something from them. Don’t just talk to people when you want their money. You know, just talk to people. In a sense, just enrich your human experience. That’s kind of, I guess, how I identify myself as just being a, I guess, in a sense, almost like a humanist romantic kind of thing, like… Everything is beautiful. Everything is terrible but you just have to make it work and get along, you know, make things keep going. Essentially. Seph: Ok. That’s awesome. Um. And then, I mean, I guess, I’m going to ask you a few more things. I don’t mean to pigeon hole you but, it’s just uh. Um. That was great. Um. But I guess, um, you mentioned a little bit um, on sort of religious upbringing. Do you… uh… how do you feel about your religion? How would you say *** ? James: Religious upbringing was uh, it was a little, it was a little awkward, I guess, because I was born and baptized Catholic. My mom was Puerto Rican, so… Obviously any place in the world that is Spanish influenced is Catholic for the most part. They were very good on selling Jesus and Company. But, um, when I was about, I must have been 5, my uh, one of my mom’s good friends invited her to her church and it was a, uh, nondenominational church. Um, however, I believe it had more of a Pentacostal style so, Protestant, and um… My mom went to it. And my mom is very, very religious. Very, she was very strict Catholic but she played it by the book, you know, she was very structured, you know, everything had to go along with uh what the Bible said. Once she got this experience of this more, in a sense organic, religious experience to her, she converted to Protestantism and um, I was caught in the middle because I was going to Catholic school. So I’m going to Catholic school 5 days a week and then I’m going to Bible Page 11 �school at this new place one day a week trying to relearn everything that I just learned over the last week essentially. And um, obviously when you’re 5, you get dragged into whatever your parents get dragged into, so… I, uh, became, uh, Pentacostal eventually I was baptized in the Pentacostal church. And, um, I would say up until high school is about when my mom was a little, I guess, less adamant about me going to church. Made it more about oh, if you want to go. And um, it would be one of those things where once in a while I’d like go, um… Actually just had a flashback to the one night, there was a very special like teen focus thing, um, I must have been 16 and I think that was the first night I ever got drunk. So I didn’t go and I felt really terrible cuz when my mom asked me how it was and I said “Ya had to be there,” and… Which is the most, uh, appropriate lie, but… *** (laughter) But it was um, I guess it’s one of those things where, um… Went to Buffalo *** obviously more churchy things. I eventually just kind of just lost the taste for um my mom’s church. I, I didn’t really like the people that were there. At least the more obvious people that were there and I, um, kind of resting in a school of thought where, I mean, I went to Catholic school my whole life. I, um, I know all of the moves, um you know all of the ideas, I know all of the principles and… I always, I guess, I always refer to myself as a freelance Christian, where if anyone were to ask me what am I, I would say a Christian. I wouldn’t deny it or anything like that. It’s like, nothing ever changed but I am less vocal about it because, for me personally, it’s kind of just my personal guide. It’s just how, it’s, if anything, it’s a system of morals that I choose as, um, as like my, um, moral structure but… um, I just, I guess I never mix with a group that I’m like that very big into and… Church always gets too religious. It becomes, just, um, it becomes just very routine and very perfunctory. Part of me thinks that’s not really the idea. You know what I mean? I mean I feel like we’re supposed to believe in a living deity doing the same thing at the same time every week may not be exactly what he’s into. And I mean, uh, it could be. I guess that’s like obviously the idea that most people like have. But I feel, if you live your life and, I guess, I, let’s say, let’s take a week out of your life and you can reflect and you see that every interaction you had with someone, a stranger or someone from *** and look at how you dealt with the situation. Look at how you deal with situations placed upon you. What did you act.. I feel if you act kind of with that, um, Christian background, that kind of like moral push behind you, I feel in a sense you’re always at church in a sense. You know what I mean? Like, you don’t just have to just be good because you’re singing songs and you know, doing all the prayers in front of other people. Like if you kind of have that, um, that Christianity in your life and in your normal actions, I feel essentially that’s like the main point, you know what I mean? So… Seph: Awesome. Um. How about, uh, politically? James: Politically what? Seph: Which way do you swing? Page 12 �James: Oh. I mean, it’s weird, actually. I guess if I had to choose for myself, I would have to, probably claim moderate. Which is weird because I’m black. But, um, I feel as far as liberalism goes, I’m definitely more into *** well, I once took a class that was divided into liberalism and conservatism *** Being a conservative is like being a father. You’re not as forgiving as the mother. You want people to kind of like toughen up and get themselves like out of their situations. And then liberalism is more like the mother, the nurturer, the one, oh you know, you fell down, let me help you up… That kind of thing. So obviously programs like welfare, that kind of thing would be under the Liberal umbrella. But, personally I feel there’s a mix. I mean with every dichotomy you can’t ever truly pick one side. I mean, even, I mean even between things like good and bad. I mean yea, you can try to be good all the time, but there’s some situations where you have to be a little rough. You know, you don’t necessarily have to do the nice thing. Well, nice and mean, I guess, would be a little more appropriate than good and bad. But, um, so I would say moderate. I agree that some people, well, I guess that all people should be given the opportunity to have some sort of assistance, uh, especially, I mean economically, like obviously it happens, you know, I mean as far as programs like *** what welfare used to be and like um, obviously are very good in my opinion. I do feel that while given assistance, people should not necessarily be held unaccountable. So, and more of like, I guess like a Republican or a Conservative view… You still have to get yourself out of it, but we’re willing to help you. It’s almost like… It’s like I am a fan of helping those that will help themselves kind of thing. So… I’m kind of right in the middle where, especially, um… Like, uh, I guess, uh, I guess since we’re in Michigan, the whole auto industry situation. Um, I understood and didn’t understand the whole bail out thing. However, I guess, in the long run, I guess I appreciate that it happened because… On the one hand, you can’t, you can’t disregard the well-being of thousands, hundreds of thousands of people based on the wrong-doings of certain corporate head men, you know. But, um, by helping them out, things have actually kind of turned around, so… Like you can’t punish them because of them, but you have to give them the money in order for it to get to them. So there’s almost like a catch-22 type of situation where the people that mishandled the money are the ones that are getting the money again, which, you know, doesn’t make sense, but, um… It sounds as though the federal government held them a lot, um, very accountable for everything that’s going on. I heard that, um, GM is now, um, back to number one car producer, um, brand in the world again. So, I mean, it’s one of those… It worked out, though, I would say it was more of a Liberalist idea. Um, and, I mean as far as the whole, I mean like the big Republican thing is like picking yourself up from the boot straps. Like, oh my family was poor, my grandfather worked really hard, so that’s how we got our money. That kind of thing. I mean that’s like the generic, like, you know, Conservative, like background story. And, um, I guess it’s like one of those things where I’m *** I’ve been in a lot of situations like where uh, you know, I’ve been blessed with a lot of assistance, like, from my family and just like a lot of support, but… when Page 13 �it comes down to actually doing things, like nothing was like handed, you know, to me. Like you have to actually work at it, you actually have to put the effort in. And, um, I guess… Seph: Well…I heard you were a vegetarian… James: well a pescetarian; I had the unfortunate duty of cleaning out a meat locker filled with rotten meat. Back in August my mom got our apartment painted and the painters forgot to re-plug the freezer and I am the one who discovered it and so obviously as a service to my mom, I cleaned it up and it was terrible. So ever since then I chose not to eat meat; just one of those…I was kind of traumatized and just thought: I don’t feel comfortable eating anything that could become what I saw so…I am a pescetarian, and I guess I realized that in a weird way, I kind of justified being a pescetarian after the fact of becoming one, just to see if there were any good enough reasons to return back to it; to meat eating rather, and I actually realized it sounds dumb...but I guess…you always hear about all the hormones and additives that they add to...rather that they put into beef and chicken and um I’d have to say in my daily life I feel: I guess I feel better, its easier to wake up in the morning; you don’t feel so crappy or lousy the next day and I mean its one of those where it could be a placebo effect or I guess I like to think that its not given that I wasn’t expecting it and then after a while I just kind of felt: ohh I feel a little better, um I don’t feel as lousy, I mean not that I woke up every morning feeling achy, but I just didn’t really feel…I guess as held down as I had previously and uh I like to attribute that to the… I guess lack of all the other stuff in my diet and being a pescetarian had an inadvertent advantage where as far as going to McDonald’s and stuff there is nothing for me there…so you kind of just cut out your crappy eating just by getting that. And I mean again, that just comes down to food and regulations and that kind of stuff but I mean I guess if I had to have a view on it: I understand that obviously preserving food but I guess I disagree with the effects on my body, that I assume are occurring…so I am not an obnoxious vegetarian. I don’t bash people that eat meat; I don’t try to talk people out of it at all. If I have people ask me, I’ll tell them but I mean I try to keep it pretty flexible; its easy to eat around stuff…I mean every restaurant has salads luckily and usually does have fish, so its pretty easy. Seph: Uh…well I guess last question on identity and this can be background or economically…how was growing up? What kind of…I guess…you know, rich? Poor? James: well, I guess from what my mom used to hint, we were the middle-middle class; we were at that point in the middle class where I mean obviously I guess that upper-middle class is not even a bad place to be now a days; like upper-middle class you’re doing really well, living comfortably, you know…you can afford to do things you like to do, but I guess in a sense you still have that discipline where you know…you obviously cannot spend frivolously. Then there’s lower-middle class, where it’s like yay! We Page 14 �live in a good neighborhood but we still live paycheck to pay check. Then there’s middle-middle class, where everyone neglects you; you are not comfortable enough to live like the upper-middle class but your not poor enough to get any help like the lower-middle class, and so it was definitely a struggle…I mean on my mom’s part…like it wasn’t like one of those things where I’ve been working in a store since I was eight years old or anything like that. Um…my mom was very big on providing for my sister and myself…I mean I guess I would have to say as far as how I was raised…I don’t know if it was a product of my upbringing but I guess I never really grew up wanting more but I also didn’t ask for stuff all the time…you know what I mean? Seph: yeah James: So…I guess there’s really nothing else that could have been added to my childhood that I thought would have made it so much better. But I guess I wasn’t the kid who was asking for a playstation…playstation 2, at every holiday when one came out…you know what I mean?...so I would say I was happy; like I said there was never a time when I was just wanting anything just because…I guess it was instilled in me to appreciate what you have…so it was easy like as far as eating and stuff; like there was always food on the table…you know…always family around, so it wasn’t a bad cake to be born into. Seph: Okay, were gonna take a slight change in pace…I want to know about how much you’ve traveled…and if traveling has basically affected your identity or just uh…affected your life…? James: well, I guess as far as far as the obvious travels: moving from New York to Buffalo and Buffalo to here; uh they were different. I guess as far as moving here particularly, it added to my identity because it in a sense identified my identity; it really gave it shape because I was able to contrast it with what was around me. In my life I’ve traveled…I guess I’ve traveled a bit. I have family in California, went over there. I have family in Atlanta…around Atlanta, so I’ve been down there. I’ve been to Philadelphia a few times, went to Texas a couple of years ago, just went to Hawaii last year. I mean I guess as far as the United States goes I still have a lot of sight seeing to do…but uh I’m interested in it, I feel when you…its one of those…traveling is one of those interesting things where yeah there’s people everywhere but its kind of different when you see them everywhere. You know what I mean…and its weird to think that were all human beings, were all built the same way but were not the same in any way, shape, or form. When I was 10 years old I went to London, actually I went to England for the first time, I haven’t been back there since but that was the first time out of the country…and obviously been to Canada a few times. And Canada was a good time; in Canada we had some good family friends and met some people up there and uh, London the same thing; actually London was a weird situation because my dad and his uh Page 15 �girlfriend took me and every…I was 10…so as far as eating goes all I ate was pizza and chicken nuggets…you know what I mean…like you’re a picky eater, even though you don’t really know what you like and you think you hate everything. I found uh…there was a pizzeria at the base of our hotel that served…well in England I guess the rest of Europe…what we know as a plain slice, is a margarita of pizza. Has nothing to do with margaritas but…you know…so I was like oh margarita! Cause I look at it…and I look at the description and I'm like this is normal pizza…and I uh ate every night that we were in London, by myself, at this one place because they had pizza. And like my dad and I went the first night, and my dads like “I’m not gonna come to London and eat at the same place every night”, so he sends his 10 year old son into the world by himself to do this. And, I remember…I don’t know if it was my first taste of…what do you call it…I don’t know…maybe socializing with the opposite gender. But I remember I had this one waitress every night, then like the day before I left I was like I’m leaving soon, and decided to start talking and um I guess that was one of the first times I was out of my element, had sort of gotten a little bit comfortable, and decided…what’s the worst that could happen if you just talk to people. And I mean your 10 so its not like I’m trying to sleep with her…you know what I mean…you can just talk to people. Uh…and I guess the next big trip. I used to go to Puerto Rico as well…I forgot to mention that; I used to go to Puerto Rico almost every summer and spend some time with my grandma for about 2 or 3 months every summer. How I don’t know Spanish is embarrassing but it kind of happens…so uh what do you call it…well I guess my next big trip was when I was 14...no I was…yeah I must have been 14; I went to Australia and New Zealand, which was really exciting and also with the rugby thing it was a little bit more prevalent over there so it was exciting to watch that and soccer. And I…uh well I mean Australia was a blast, but one experience that’s always been with me is…I went to stay with the Mayoree people when I was in New Zealand, and we stayed there for 2 nights and it was actually really interesting; we had a big group, I think there was maybe 20 of us or something like that. And we all slept in one room on the floor, I mean it was a big room…but we were just like on the floor, just like a communal hall type of thing and um the Mayoree people that we stayed with were just …it was the strangest thing…I have never had such a familiar feeling with people…like I met them and they kind of felt like family type of thing; like very easy to talk to, very friendly, just like very caring. And in my head I'm just like wow I am meeting you for the first time and we are getting along; like it is going both ways and it was I guess in a weird sociological way I'm just like wow people are pretty awesome you know what I mean…you can go all over the world and people are just people…you know…I don’t know anything about them and they don’t know anything about me, but we can get along and realize that we have things in common; like meanwhile our backgrounds are entirely different and I guess in a sense that was a part of…that may have been one of the things that I started emphasizing who am I, what am I offering the world in a sense, and also I guess as more as a support it kind of makes me think and reaffirm Page 16 �the fact that alright maybe I am doing something right, like I am meeting these people for the first time and their like alright with me type of thing…you know…I wasn’t trying to like kiss ass cause I was 14…you know…but yeah like I would have to say traveling has definitely added a lot to my identity because it reinforced the need for an identity as well as maybe even pushed me a little bit to be more concerned about what my identity was as far as what other people were seeing. Seph: very cool, and then going on the subject of identity…I guess growing up or in adulthood did you ever feel like you were treated differently? James: oh absolutely! I mean, I would have to say the story of my life is: I was never black enough and I was never Hispanic enough…like definitely a huge thing and then obviously I wasn’t white so I couldn’t play with them…but I mean…whoa…uh..but I mean its not like I grew up in Jim Crow south or anything like that. But it was one of those things were I guess when I was really young, you were…I was always the black kid playing with white kids; it wasn’t like a kids playing with kids type thing. But my neighborhood was actually very diverse, which I appreciated; id have to say the 2 most prominent nationalities…not nationalities…I’d say ethnicities were um…Irish and Pilipino actually. Which were obviously different ends of the spectrum, but I feel like if anything that definitely eased me into everything a lot easier. Hanging out with my dad on the weekends, I guess my weekends were a little more ethnic for me, but then my Puerto Rican side of my family has always been very involved. And it’s a very big family as well so; I mean that was always awesome. I would have to say I would have to identify more with my Puerto Rican roots then my black roots but, that’s also because my Puerto Rican roots are a little bit fresher because my mom is from Puerto Rico, so it’s a little bit easier to connect to that. And as far as growing up in high school, yeah, like it was one of those: oh, you’re black but you’re like not that black, like you act white you know that kind of thing, or like oh!, you’re Puerto Rican but you’re kind of black so, eh, you know what I mean. So like basically because I didn’t speak in the same, I guess, tonovenacular as everybody else, so that off the bat was a little bit weird. But, my mom; its almost like her mission in life was to make sure that I spoke properly, and I guess I feel like coming from where she’s coming from type of thing; to have someone speak properly and if anything, kind of like assimilate socially as far as like having tools to succeed, I mean like I would have to say in a messed up way, I think it has given me an advantage because lets say I have the same requirements as someone who is ethnically exactly like me but they talk with a little bit more of a, like you know, they have like a, they act like you know I’ve got a little bit more swagger, I have a little bit more, like you know…attitude in their speech but I can speak the language and speech properly. Eh I’m gonna have that little bit of that like, off the bat, like kind of like a push and personally I guess I really admire language and I think that language is very important and I also feel when you learn enough about language, you…like, I don’t know…language in Page 17 �itself is its own art form. And I feel that you can continuously learn more about a language which is in a sense I feel like my bastardized justification for why I don’t speak any other languages; is because I’m not done learning English is how I guess I kind of face it, you know what I mean so uh…its just one of those weird things where just growing up; I guess I’ve always been different and just because, like I said, I wasn’t black enough and wasn’t Puerto Rican enough, but I wasn’t trying to be anything else either so…for I guess a long part of my identity, I just thought that I was like by myself, you know what I mean and its kind of…but its like I worked with other people but I was never really part or anything else. I mean I guess its one of those: something that’s kind of carried on with me a little bit more, you know, my entire life, but I mean I guess its one of those that used to bother me a lot but now not so much. I guess I just figure there…like I said it is part of my identity; its part of who I am, and I can obviously mix with other people but there are going to be some things that are just for me, which I guess isn’t a bad thing… Seph: Going kind of on that same line, not to kill that subject, but uh…moving to West Michigan, was there a shift? Did you notice maybe a different sort of treatment? James: I noticed, well I would have to say one of the things I noticed right off the bat was that I felt that well generally the population is much whiter over here which…um…I mean, its like I’ve been to white towns before and stuff like that so it wasn’t even a matter of like oh, I don’t feel comfortable here, its just like oh, I happen to notice everyone here is white, that kind of thing. And one thing I noticed when I started coming here though, is I felt that everyone that saw me at a public place like a supermarket or something like that was… (door creaks open) Seph: what’s up? Ha, of course I'm doing an interview. James:…everyone that saw me, I felt was like very nice, so I felt that like especially, with me rolling in: my car has New York plates, I don’t look like I’m from around here or anything like that so I guess in a sense I stuck out, but people were…like overly nice to maybe compensate for it, which I don’t know if they were maybe other motivations for it but it was just like one of those: oh, everyone here is like really nice, I guess, you know its kind of how it worked. And I guess there were just simple traditionalist and ideological differences I noticed when I came to west Michigan, such as I mean, well I guess its like really religious based around here, which is cool, I mean whatever works, and um…everyone gets married when they are like 17 which is kind of different, I mean…kind of weird but um…I mean if anything I guess I was like walking in…it was almost like…okay it sounds dumb: its like whenever you see a sci-fi movie; I felt like I was the guy, who like came from the past or from the future, you know, I’m the guy who’s here so everyone has to explain what’s going on. I’m a straight man so that everyone can Page 18 �explain, oh this is how things work around here and have them explain to me. And it um, baffled my mind; I'm just like what is happening? What is this place? …It was very strange, I mean especially learning different things; one thing that blew my mind was the amount of confederate flags in this union state you’ve got here. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Its one of those hahaha, Michigan…you’re in the union…kind of. In fact, my roommate my first year…he had a big confederate flag over our couch and it said “redneck” on the bottom and I realized this is home but not really. It was just like one of those: this is really happening; it’s a little strange but you know.... alright I guess, and I mean at the very least I…my yearning to be open-minded I guess was very tested here and I mean its like one of those like...obviously I have no negative views of white people in general, but I realized that there are some pretty trashy confederate white people around here, and which is…well that’ll happen. And then on the other side too, which I feel like Grand Rapids is particularly guilty of …I feel like with the black and Hispanic population I mean, I feel like everyone wants to blame the media but I…every time I see a hood part of town in like Grand Rapids, it seems like a scene out of a movie and I’m just thinking: are you like this? Or are you acting like this, because it’s how you’re supposed to act? Cause Grand Rapids you’re not hood! I’m sorry; you know what I mean? Like Grand Rapids does not know struggle the same way that like places like Detroit know struggle, you know what I mean? And it’s one of those; oh we’re from Michigan, Detroit’s hard, so let’s be hard too. No that’s not they way it works; if you’re happy smile, you know what I mean, like if you’re having a good life you don’t have to pretend you’re not, kind of thing. Its one of those things; like I came over here and I feel like everyone kind of has their roles that they feel are…they are dealt in a sense, and I mean I’m kind of learning it, and learning to get along with it and work around it, but I mean its been different, it’s been very strange. I’d have to say; like I’ve been to Australia, New Zeeland, and Michigan is definitely the weirdest place I’ve been to yet, and its baffling, but I truly feel like its um…it’s definitely…what’s emerged at the other end of everything is a little bit more of who I am, and like I said I realized which principles I’m not willing to give up, you know? And it’s been a little bit difficult but um…I mean looking back at it now; it’s just like, I’m glad, you know; I could’ve just changed and been like everyone expected me too, or you know…done what I needed too to fit in. But I don’t fit in, so I pretend that I do. Seph: All right, well you got a couple more minutes? James: yeah. Seph: okay. I guess I’m going to just to civil rights, cause were dealing with that a lot in class right now…so were gonna move into that real quick to finish. But, I guess when it comes to thinking about race or ethnicity, are there any articles, books, films, features, performances…that stand out or maybe influenced you? Page 19 �James: ewh..uh… Seph: well…I mean you mentioned media and how it’s like how were supposed to act in Grand Rapids, but I mean is there like anything that was ever uh… James: ehhh Seph: we can come back to that. James: well I guess…well no. I’ll stick to it, I won’t pass, I’m not a pussy. No I guess…it sounds dumb…but…I guess I’ve avoided letting other ideas or I guess other influences define who I am. Um...growing up I’ve I always been like lone wolf status; always into things that other people weren’t, always just interested in different areas. And I mean; I guess if I had to say…I couldn’t pick a particular art form or piece of work that maybe helped me with my identity, but uh…I guess I would have to say; things that interested me were unlike what everyone else was into, not necessarily weird different, just not…I mean I didn’t meet too many other people for instance when I was younger…I guess its like I just cant close on a genre or a type but I guess the fact that I was always a little bit of a nonconformist and a little bit…uh well walked to the beat of a different drum, that, helped define me. But I could say that there was any piece of work that pushed me to better myself; in an identity point of view, you know. Seph: a couple more, bear with me. James: that fine. Seph: About discrimination…did you ever face any kind of discrimination growing up? Or even more recent? James: Eh, not to my face I guess, I mean I’m sure it was there; it’s always lurking in the shadows. But…uh…one time…my old teammate and I…his name was Wiccub (not sure if that is really what he says..?); I don’t know if you can use that so we’ll call him Joe, so me and Joe were in the car going from New York City back to Buffalo and we got pulled over by a cop and it was…we had been speeding…but it was one of those things where it was early in the morning, and I didn’t realize I was speeding and I was kinda just like keeping up with traffic and it was just one of those; ohhh in my head and he was like oh you were speeding so I’m thinking oh wow that sucks but what can you do…I got caught speeding; you know what I mean; like I wasn’t trying to be…you know shifty about it at all and um…so the cop checks my i.d. but then checks Wiccub’s i.d. and its just you know…which is weird cause… Seph: cause he’s a passenger… Page 20 �James: yeah as a passenger; you know checks his i.d. as well. So he runs us through the system. He comes back and then he uh…he says…well he basically asked me to get out of the car and I’m like okay fine, its not a big deal; all my papers and stuff were up to date and he just goes…uh…can you come to the back of the car; so I’m in the back of my car, I mean like behind the car…um which I thought was alright because of like the dash-cam thing so I’m not going to do anything; and the video will show that I’m not going to do anything and um…he’s like “I couldn’t help but notice that when you rolled down the window I was hit by the overwhelming odor of marijuana” and so…and I didn’t smoke, like I didn’t and so I was just like ohhh that’s weird cause I don’t smoke…and I guess the cop was like trying to…I assume the cop was trying to trick me into giving him permission to search my car cause he says “oh so if I were to look through your car I wouldn’t find anything” and I go “officer there is nothing in my car” and he’s like “but if I were to look through it, I wouldn’t find anything?” and I go “sir there is nothing illegal in my car” and so he’s like ohhh okay. It’s just like one of those why are you asking that over and over. I feel like he probably just wanted me to be like “fine go look through my car”, you know what I mean, but I know my rights a little bit better than that and um we weren’t giving him any time of reasonable cause or anything so…uh…yeah he gave us like a really hard time and um…were sitting in there car just like; what is going on? As cars are going like 90 past us; we’re just like, you know what I mean; like what is happening right now?! So we’re just sitting there and I’m like wow I’m actually kinda pissed off about this; cause it’s one of those; I never actually play the race card, cause I think it’s dumb, but I was like actually just seemed really fucked up, you know. And so I would have to say if there was one situation; that was…that was the one what was pretty…I guess black and white as far as…you know whether or not there was any discrimination…like I said I guess if anything its been more interracial versus interracial; as far as oh not black enough or not Hispanic enough, you know what I mean; you’re like ohh…you’re not really down with us; so in a sense I’ve been discriminated on all fronts, which is exciting, not many people can say that; usually you have one race to run back to, I had none, so… Seph: any discrimination for being a cheerleader? James: usually well um…I was a bouncer at Raggs to Riches, in down town Grand Rapids and I actually found out when they saw my resume, they saw cheerleader, and they initially were just like, NO! hahaha until one guy goes wait a minute these guys are usually kinda big; they’re usually kinda strong cause they have to like toss these girls; so then they’re like alright we’ll go check him out and I walk in and they’re like “big guyyy!” and then they’re like that’s who we’re hiring and I’m like and I have martial arts experience and they’re like alright that’s cool…um but that’s really the only instance that I know of particularly. But people usually look at me and are like ohh you look athletic, its not like ra-ra-shish-kebah like everyone assumes I do… Page 21 �Seph: okay, how about family? Did your family ever experience discrimination? Mom or dad? James: oh yeah. Um my mom when she first moved here she didn’t speak any English; so I mean like kids find any reason to make fun of other kids…so she was pretty much…she was screwed over when she showed up, she was made fun of; she spoke Spanish, broken English, you know, she like really didn’t know anything but um…however I guess on the inverse of everything there was a girl in her class that was like “Carmen, I’ll teach you how to…like after school let’s hang out for like an hour or whatever and she was like teaching her how to speak and stuff like that…so um yeah…my mom had good and bad experiences as far as like getting to school without any type of you know I guess formal instruction for speaking but I mean just imagine going anywhere and living there you know…and not knowing the language…like that’s one of those things were you can sort of think about it…but if you really think about it in an instance you think like oh that would be annoying but then you got to think about it as like a lifestyle; that’s entirely different, like its…baffling so…I’m sure that’d suck but you can’t really explain it any other way. Seph: All right, and final question: what comes to mind when you think of civil rights? And do you have any civil rights heroes? Local or national? James: well, I mean I would have to say when it comes to civil rights; civil rights are right up there with common sense; like I guess in a sense my problem with civil rights is I feel like when you start making a legislation that is assigned to a certain type of population while it does grant them certain powers it also alienates them because when you write and law and it says like “all men are created equal” type of thing just like very simple like tenants of American society; that should mean all men, are all mankind, you know what I mean, like some type of language use for everyone, but when you start specifying: alright this is for African Americans or this is for you know homosexuals and marriage now, its one of those: well yay! to do the right what everyone else could but you’re also writing a law that’s naming them as a type of person which I feel like that’s kind of…it’s one of those two steps forward, and one step back kind of thing, you know what I mean so uh…as far as civil rights I guess legislation wise, I would hope it was unnecessary but since it is necessary, I’m all for it but I don’t understand…I guess I don’t understand putting any type of human being down; like that’s just a concept that doesn’t register to me at all. As far as civil rights heroes...so stereotypical, I guess I don’t have to pick a celebrity, but whatever, one activist that stands out to me is Malcolm X. Solely on the fact that a lot of people are into Malcolm X because of how powerful of a speaker he was, how adamant he was with his beliefs; which obviously are very good points but he was able to, I don’t know how familiar you are with Malcolm X but his…the first, I would say…the fist major portion of his career he was very militant, very aggressive, and thought; he truly thought that blacks and whites could no co-exist; he felt there should be a black America and a white Page 22 �America, and you know kind of figure out the paperwork later, you know, and he wouldn’t deal with white people, he wouldn’t even mix with the population and he went on the Hajj to Mecca and while he was there was with Muslims from all over the world and he realized there were some darker than me, some my completion, and some white with blonde hair blue eyes and he’s like you know white people were Muslims; and he’s like their faith was at his level, you know what I mean; like at his level or more, so it wasn’t just like oh they’re tourists, they’re not just like checking it out, they are thoroughly invested in a belief system that he is thoroughly invested in. and I guess I admire him because he came out and was basically kind of like “I was wrong”, you know what I mean…and changed his views on everything and went about making those views more public, as far as what should be done. So I guess I admire him for being such a prominent figure in pretty much saying I was incorrect, you know, which no one does that; no one ever says that they’re wrong. So I guess as far as what’s been dug up and exposed about him: he was always what he said he was…you know what I mean…it’s not here’s the Malcolm X we thought we knew, here’s random exposé, you know that kind of thing. No, like he changed who he was but he stayed who whomever he said he was, that’s who he was at the time; you know and especially a man of his stature and position that’s very difficult to do; to say that, I mean essentially he lost his life as kind of a result of it. So, I guess if I had to pick one I would say him, and then obviously I guess another example would be Gandhi, who I guess would be a very general one. He’s another one who is a very generic answer and I mean obviously Martin Luther King was a big fan of him as well, but…he…I mean I guess in a similar light to Malcolm X, he was another one where; he was born and raised in India, educated in England, its when he moved to South Africa that he became invested in civil rights. He didn’t realize there was a difference in a sense, of the way people were treated because in India; Britain may have pulled the biggest, fastest trick on every body by convincing Indians that they had equal stake in their own country. And so Brittan realized there are so many Indians here, we have to get them on our side and working for us, versus a partite where it was very segregated and very like militarized on how they separate everything; they had to kind of work a little bit of a different system, and his experience was he went to South Africa because he was of Indian decent; I mean he was pure blooded Indian, and he was mistreated because he was brown, he was not a white person. So you have whites and non-whites essentially was how South Africa worked during the partite and he basically, once presented with the situation in seeing it; things literally black and white changed his views on everything and made it very, very vocal about it. It was almost like an over night change; where he goes “people should not be getting treated this way” and I mean, it’s one of those, he wasn’t as vocal about civil rights prior to this situation but once it happened that’s when he became I little bit more…he became louder and publically changed his views and really…you know…started his quest in and again eventually lost his life again because of it. Page 23 �Seph: All right sweet. Thank you, that is all the questions I have. And James, thanks for doing this and letting me get to know you better. James: No problem. END OF INTERVIEW Page 24 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/78289888f09488506831e83e45151990.mp3 8a63606f7a06519687c6130861b35702 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Morton_James Title A name given to the resource James Morton audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Morton, James Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Morkes, Seph Description An account of the resource James Morton talks about his family" Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Discrimination against Hispanic Americans Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-16 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/723b9814a67b9b5c7f2bb1cc4b242621.pdf 003e1e835200ba03ec77bfc7bdf8b7be PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Anthony Moore Interviewer(s): Brandon Golden Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: October 19, 2011 Runtime: 01:03:04 Biography and Description This is an interview conducted to evaluate the successes, failures, and impact of the civil rights movement at home and abroad; as well as the prospect of how one man wishes to make an impact while serving his community as a future law enforcement office. Transcript BG (Brandon Golden): So first just tell me who you are and just a little bit about yourself. And we will start with that AM (Anthony Moore): My name is Anthony Allen Moore, I’m 36 years old and I am married. I’ve been married for 16 years and have a 12 year old son . I’ve been a resident of Michigan for most of my life and a resident of Grand Rapids, MI for a good portion of my life. I also go by the nicknames Tony, Antonio and some other names that we will get into later. BG: Alright, some conversations that we have had before you have mentioned some of your experiences in Benton Harbor and Chicago could you elaborate on those just a bit? AM: I was born in 1975 in Benton Harbor/Saint Joe area to my mother and father. From there I moved and grew up in Chicago, Benton Harbor, then Grand Rapids. Most of my time spent when I was younger in Benton Harbor then in Chicago. My Dad’s side of the family is from Chicago and my mother’s side is from Benton Harbor. Both me and my twin brother, oh I should say I have a twin, me and my twin brother stayed with our grandparents off and on for most of the years. BG: Ok. Growing up in Benton harbor and Chicago, could you elaborate on some of your experiences with the education system? AM: I didn’t go to any schools in Benton Harbor. I did start my early educational history in Chicago, spent a little time in Chicago. The school system there… we went to school in the same area that we went to projects, we lived in the projects, Alden Gardens in Chicago, and there was a school there. I can’t remember the school name, and I think that is where me and my twin brother started our education. The educational system in Chicago at the time was not a great educational system for African Page 1 �Americans, or inner city, or poverty level people. It was not geared towards that it seemed like, I remember not getting a good educational background there. There is an incident that I remember, when it came to counting, counting from 1 to 100, and we did it with Trix the cereal, and we would, every time you count you would fill the bowel up with a Trix and I could never get up to 100. It was always everyone else would have a full bowel, I would always maybe get up to 30 or 40 or something like that and couldn’t go any further. Um and then not being able to read well, not really doing anything quite well. I remember everyone being able to read if they were, especially if they were not black they usually seemed to have a better education than myself or other folks from the same area that I grew up in. We never got the help that other kids got. Even though the school itself was in or near the Projects, it was a public school so everyone went there, but it just seemed that if you came from the projects or were African American, you never really got the same attention that the other people did. I never got the one on one attention that I saw other students get. I remember kids coming in with backpacks and good school clothes especially again if they were not black or didn’t come from the projects that I came from. You know they had lunch boxes I didn’t have a lunchbox I always had the paper bag. We didn’t have backpacks you know, we just kind of carried you know whatever we had, then we had the same backpack for a couple years or whatever. We didn’t get new clothes every time school year came around or even different seasons we’d start off in the spring and usually you know, I remember having the same pair of the pants all the way through to the end of the school year. You had you know your pants you had during the week and then you had your shoes and your one pair of boots. You had to make them last, you didn’t get that. Me and my twin brother, my mom had to do two of us and she really uh didn’t have money to spare. And actually at that time we were living with my father’s mother during that time and she was not a wealthy woman by any means. So she did what she could, she made pretty much a lot of our clothes, I remember her making our own coats she made some of our shirts. She tried, she did a lot, actually some of our, she would try to help us with our studying. For me, it was not a good time because I didn’t learn, I don’t remember too much anything that I learned then I remember always asking for help and acting out because I never really got that help. I remember my mother was always talking to me about my behavior, or why I wasn’t doing what I supposed to be doing in class. Then I remember my mother always trying to uh find some means of getting me more help, and that really just wasn’t a good fit for me. I have told this to several people as I’m older now, I’ve said that I would never ever go back to Chicago for education nor would I put any of my children in that system. I do admit now that they have some of the best programs in the nation, but so far as their education goes especially high school and some of their academies their specialty schools and private schools and their universities, admittedly they do have some of the best programs, but when I was coming up they just did not have that and it seemed like it was just not geared for us especially if you came from the projects, black and uh you didn’t have money. It seems like whether you were affiliated with certain groups, gangs or whatnot you really wanted… it didn’t seem like you were expected to do much. I didn’t get the attention that every other kid did, especially if they were not black and from the project or especially from the area I grew up in. BG: Gong back a little bit, growing up you had mentioned gang activity could you elaborate on that and some of those experiences Page 2 �AM: Pretty much since I can remember, I’ve been affiliated or had experience with gangs. My family on both sides, my mother and fathers side had experience with gangs in both Chicago and Benton Harbor. Benton Harbor was more of a country, kind of a throw back from the south, where it was a small community and the gangs mostly developed based on family orientation and where you grew up. And we were in the kind of on the country side of Benton Harbor, more of the farm side of Benton Harbor so not a lot of industry going on at the time and they were going downhill losing a lot of industries and a lot of factories so we kind of grew up in the… matter of fact we lived on Main street in Benton Harbor, the main artery into Benton Harbor from the highway and that’s how we was known as far as the gang goes. In that respect my family were known for being in that area, and we had a lot of family members in that gang there a lot of cousins, young young young Uncles and they were all known for being in that area. And we really kind a took care of our own there. And really other than the exception of every now and then getting into it with other folks we really stayed to our own and usually made a living selling some type of narcotic or marijuana. But in Chicago it was more of your typical large scale crimes when it came to gangs. My father was in a gang, he started off before I was born, started in a gang with his brothers in the same projects where I grew up. He belonged to The Black Stone Rangers, who came originally from a mixture of The Bloods and The Black Panthers, they kind of, people who kind of came from both of those two groups and formed their own gang that also did, were involved in some motorcycle clubs as well. Through The Black Stone Rangers, I and my twin brother and I grew up knowing my father’s friends and other gang members and we just kind of grew and up and were automatically were accepted into that life style. Again because a great many of our family were in the gang on my father’s side and we just kind of followed the same path and we really didn’t know any other way. Where we were living was kind of segregated from the rest of society, the way most people were accepted to live so being in the gang made us feel like we had a sense of belonging. We were all poverty stricken, if you will call it, and we felt like being in the gang made us have strength in numbers. So far as the ability to survive when you don’t have a lot of money or a great education. We didn’t rely on those things. We didn’t rely on a job because we weren’t able to get those jobs and our parents weren’t able to get those jobs. That was the way of life. We fought for what we had. At a young age, we learned that where we were was what we had and we had to fight for it. We didn’t have money or jobs or think about moving out of the area that we lived in. To white upper class Americans, we were known to only be the poor Black youth because we had a lot of young mothers, I remember that, we had a lot of single parents and mothers. We did what came easy and that was learning to make a hustle. We learned to make money off out what we had. We did a lot of stealing and drug distribution. Being runners, as we called it. Making sure those other gangs or other groups didn’t harass our neighborhoods or that other gangs didn’t bring drugs into our neighborhood that we weren’t bring in. In the gang world, you are not allowed to bring drugs into another gang’s neighborhood because that violates certain codes within that gang life. You didn’t go to another hood because that would mess with that gang’s ability to live and to make money, the ability to survive so sometimes that would spark off some tensions between gangs in different neighborhoods. You definitely learned that way of life, almost like a hierarchy system, in some cases a militant type attitude you had your generals, your infantry, your foot soldiers. You had your O.G.’s , what you would call infantry, the guys that did what the O.G.’s told them to do. They were the ones that went in and dealt with anyone you had issues with. Then you had your drug runners or scouts for that matter, guys who would just check and see what was going on in the neighborhood. They wouldn’t necessarily get Page 3 �involved in anything. They would tell us if someone was doing something they weren’t supposed to be doing or if someone from another sect was in our neighborhood. We learned a lot of rules growing up especially at an early age. We learned how to negotiate the law and how to get around that and how to keep the law from getting involved in every day dealings. Sometimes it only meant if we got the Cops involved that it would only be harder to conduct business and make money. It was almost more of a danger than the other gangs we had to deal with. It was just a way of life, set in and something you learned at a young age, you know, how to conduct yourself in a gang and your ability to survive. You wanted to out age the statistic of dying before you got to adulthood. It was tough, to say the least, but you either adapted, or you died. BG: How about race relations and segregation. Any personal experiences, experiencing any of that? AM: Yeah. I grew up in three different cities, well one town two cities. In all those areas, there were different levels of segregation. In Benton Harbor, you know, Saint Joe and Benton Harbor are buttoned up right next together they are split by the Grand River right there, I mean Lake Michigan, I’m sorry and they have a, you know, a bridge that goes over one of the quarries and that’s pretty much the separation between the two. And everybody knows if you are from Benton Harbor, you are usually are a poor black African American. There were whites and Hispanics, but mostly poor African Americans. Again, a throw back from the south. There are a lot of southern people in Benton Harbor for some reason, I don’t know the reason, but everybody knows if you are from Benton Harbor you are black and poor. You usually worked in a factory of some sort or you had a farm. You know, you were on the low of the totem pole .If you were from the factory you were usually maintenance or janitorial or something like that. If you lived in Saint Joe, across the river, you, or right across the bridge, you were higher education white, higher income you also would have worked in the factory but as higher production, management, corporate banking, those type of deals. It was understood that not a lot of black people lived in Saint Joe. We were looked at as tourists. A lot of times, we didn’t even go over to that side unless they had a parade that went from Benton Harbor to Saint Joe and went back. Or if you were going to the beach you would go to Saint Joe. That’s pretty much the only time we would go to Saint Joe. It was literally down the street from my grandparent’s house, you go down the street and cross the bridge, but we didn’t go there. You knew, you automatically knew as soon as you crossed the bridge you had the Benton harbor police, right there. They usually made sure you stayed separated. You definitely made sure that you stayed in your own area and I had trouble with that. BG: So what about Chicago then? AM: Chicago, Chicago is interesting as far as segregation goes. It was different. It was within, Chicago being a big city, it was segregated more so not really rather you are black or white or class it had more, if you were Black, everyone was on this side of Chicago. If everyone was Italian they lived on this side of Chicago. If everyone was Irish they lived on this side of Chicago. There was a lot of different social groups in Chicago. If you were to ask anyone where the highest crime area was, they would naturally say the black area. I remember lots of time, where if we went to downtown Chicago in the entertainment district or business district even navy pier we were assumed to cause trouble. WE were assumed to have drugs on us. We were assumed to be looking for a rival gang to be getting into trouble with. As long as we stuck to our own side or our own area and we followed this kind of unwritten rule, especially when it Page 4 �came to law enforcement, if we outside of where we were supposed to be we ran into a lot of opposition whether it was law enforcement or other groups. For instance, Chicago has one of the biggest China town or Asian Americans places in the nation which was not too far from where I lived, but we were not allowed to visit there. If we did it was automatic trouble which involved a lot of fights. To give you an example, I had a martial arts instructor, my father brought me to this school to learn from this Asian American and I was going to learn Karate and I can remember where the school was it was not in Chinatown but close to it and it was also was not in our area of the projects or the gardens. My father took me to the school to train and you could just feel the tension in the room where it wasn’t accepted yet for the two groups to be together it was a monetary thing. It was ok for us to spend money but it wasn’t ok for us to be there without any reason or to socialize in that area. It was very,very interesting. It caused a lot of stress between the two, a lot of tension between the two. You would work or train with an Asian American right next to you and you would spar, but you wouldn’t talk. You would, you know, do all these exercises together but you didn’t say anything to that person and you didn’t say anything before or after. It was very far down the line from what was expected. Even though you had the two groups there you would stick to your own and there was no mingling, there was no hanging out. When we done we went back to our neighborhoods. I didn’t have Asian friends, as a matter of fact, I didn’t have any friends outside of my own race when I was a kid growing up at that time in Chicago. In my area even though there were white individuals in the Projects I grew up in in, it was highly unlikely if there were going to hang out with us. I do know that I had a few, but not many what so ever, very few white and Asian friends. There were not any Hispanics, they kind of just, stayed to themselves. Unless you are accepted as an individual there were no mingling of cultures not like there is now. The society of Chicago was much different when I was growing up there. BG: How about your experiences with law enforcement? AM: My experience with law enforcement, umm, well if there was any experience with law enforcement at the time, it wasn’t good. My experience was very negative. Very, very negative. I did not have a good relationship with them. Because of the fact that I grew up in the gang, the way that I viewed life was based off of, take everything and don’t give anything. Everything in my life was, I was taught to, fear the law, oppose the law, and the law is not my friends and they are not there to support me. Do everything you can to outsmart the law, run faster, be stronger. The law was the boogyman to all of us in Chicago and Benton harbor. They weren’t the protect and serve of law enforcement today. They didn’t care what happened to you, where you came from, how much money you made, your parents. Your life meant nothing to the law, the law, I never once in Chicago or Benton harbor just stop and instead of, just pulling me out of the car and putting me against the wall or always saying hands up first gun out second or excuse me, gun out first and hands up second. I never had a cop once say hey how are you doing today. To this day in Chicago and Benton harbor, never have I walked in the street and they just say Hi and they politely give me a nod. I never grew up asking for help from a cop. I have never once asked for help from a cop. I’ve been thrown on the ground, put up against walls. And knowing what my history was then, some of the choices I made were self- inflicted, but I always wondered why we were always told, why cops were made out to be such a bad guy. Growing up, I never saw that they were good or what they could do for me. My earliest memories of a cop is my mother, I was running the streets at the time, at that point I had good reason to stay away from the cops, my mother her car broke Page 5 �down in the middle of the street and my mother asked a cop if he could help stop traffic or do something to assist her to get the car into the driveway. I remember exactly what the cop had said “No I’m not going to help you, you need to get this out of the road before I write you a citation.” This cop was going to write us a ticket even though we were right by our house. I didn’t see any good come out of that situation with the cop. When I was growing up, the only time the cops came is when they were looking for you. And there have been many times when someone needed help for some reason or another and they never helped or got that. A lot of people were afraid of the cops and were afraid to report crimes they just weren’t there to help. When you only get one idea of what a cop is, especially when you aren’t doing all the right things, it helps to see a cop help. I know that I have done enough running from a cop to understand how to get a cop to chase you and how to get a cop’s attention, but never in a good way. A lot of times in Chicago, Benton Harbor and Grand Rapids you never, I never felt safe. I never felt the cop had my best interest at heart. A lot of times I’ve been walking on my own going to the store, a lot of times, especially in Chicago if I was in an area that was not my own I’ve been pulled over or walked over to and patted down and wasn’t even asked one question. They didn’t ask me one question before they patted me down and that was my experience a lot of the time growing up. In Benton Harbor, you were told by not only your peers, but even my elders, my parents, aunts and uncles, they would always tell you, don’t get pulled over by a cop. If you get pulled over by a cop, you better have money on you. There was a joke in Benton Harbor, if you get pulled over by the cops, you better hope that you go to jail. A lot of times you didn’t make it there. And in Chicago, kind of the same thing went and to this day there are a lot of unsolved crimes where cops have been suspected of abusing, and or and, doing crimes against people that they detained or arrested. And just let go. They would arrest them, drive somewhere and we would see those guys a few days later and they would be all beat up and you would ask them what happened and they would just say “Don’t get pulled over. I’ve gotten pulled over and any time I did something, I had a bad feeling, but you never wanted to get caught by a cop. I’ve crossed highways, ran away, hid in abandoned houses, I did anything not to get caught by a cop. That’s my young life. There’s still things I worry about now as an adult when it comes to the law. It’s abundantly clear that certain things haven’t changed. BG: Now you’re going into law enforcement yourself, you’re going to school for it. How do you hope to effect that? Do you want to make an impact on today’s youth? AM: I really do want to make an impact on today’s youth, I really do. I want law enforcement in general, to be viewed in a different way. I don’t want law enforcement to be viewed the way I viewed it when I was growing up. I have a better understanding of the way things work now than I did when I was younger. I believe, I truly believe, the only thing that keeps our society working is a couple of things. First of all, our parents, I believe they have a great impact or a huge impact on how our society works. Second, is your own beliefs. Third is law enforcement and then the government. I think law enforcement has a huge impact on the way society works. Usually they are our first defense when it comes to crime. I believe they play a bigger role than just crime prevention that they play a huge role in just keeping society safe and serving as a public servant and really just helping society in its day to day life and procedures. What I think could help with that is if law enforcement in itself, can learn to view people as more than just a demographic or an area of society. There are so many different kinds of people out there with different beliefs, religions, colors, etc. and law enforcement just needs to adjust to these Page 6 �different types of groups in today’s society. I see myself getting into law enforcement to change how people view law enforcement and how law enforcement views people. I go into this knowing that I still have a certain judgment of law enforcement and I still have a certain uneasy feeling or distrust of law enforcement, more so a distrust toward law enforcement, it’s not like it just went away. I still have things happen to me on an everyday basis based on my color that makes me, in some ways, still fear law enforcement. I still tell my son, to this day, to fear law enforcement first. Not because they deserve that fear, it’s because there are certain individuals in law enforcement who are not there for the betterment of the individual. I tell him, I teach him how to deal with law enforcement in a way that gives him the best chance of a positive outcome. Not because law enforcement is there to help us in every instance, but because I want him to survive and get himself out of what could become a worse case scenario. I think if we as a people, a lot of African Americans need to get into law enforcement represent us, law enforcement to this day still doesn’t have a good amount of African Americans to represent the community that their in. We don’t have very many black officers, female officers, or black female officers. None of these groups are very available in our communities and we need them in order to help law enforcement understand the background, understand the mindset, understand the cultural differences, the pre conceptions, the notions that African Americans have about law enforcement. I think we can break that and find a way around this gap between trust and fear and not only from the black community to law enforcement, but from law enforcement to the black community. There are a lot of law enforcement officers who assume that every time they pull and African American over, they are going to find drugs. Or when they stop us we are going to have a weapon that’s unregistered or when they get called to a domestic there will always be a case where a black male is beating on either a black female or a black female which is more common now, the white female, who is a target of domestic abuse in the community because there are so many interracial couples in the community. A black male, in my opinion, just based off of experience is still one of the most dangerously viewed encounters that a white officer is going to have, that is the biggest fear. I’ve talked to many white officers, since I’ve been working in this industry, that their biggest fear is the black male. I’ve been a target of that many times. We need to change the theory that if you go into an inner city and run into a black male who stands over 5 foot 7 and happens to be over 200 pounds that you are going to have to do something to them instead of talking things over first. I think the media has played a big role in making that easy. For me, it has made it somewhat harder for law enforcement and the black community to get along. For any positive outcome that has ever come from race relations between African Americans and law enforcement, and there’s some black guy running away from the cops for some reason or it is just assumed that every time there’s a robbery or something bad has happened there is a black guy who is being hunted down. It seems like every time you turn on the television all these crime shows, they are usually after black male. In the movies that come out, the villain is usually a black male. Who plays the pimp? Who plays the thug? Who plays the prostitute? I think the media to this day, still has not done enough and has sometimes helped to instill this notion in these officers about black males that by the time they graduate, they think they already know what they are going to have to deal with as far as African Americans. I know this from experience because as to this day, I’ve been that guy who’s been pulled over and law enforcement assumes that something bad is going to happen. I believe that law enforcement learns, they’ve been taught that, basically to come in with an idea of how to deal with racial tensions and I don’t think their taught well enough yet to think of the individual or to Page 7 �treat people as an individual. Not as a black male or a black female who doesn’t care for themselves enough to get out of an abusive relationship or you know, all these things. I think there has to be more reflection of what the true situation is in the black community. That’s why I think we need more black officers out there, not just of the African American creed, but just white officers who understand the situations being faced by the black community. Not that I believe that all white officers have the same ideas, but I think if we get more people from different backgrounds, we can help to broaden the idea of how to treat the members of the black community. We need to do that. I think that is why I have been so interested in law enforcement for the longest time because we need a different system of safety and enforcement and some sort of service that is there to protect us as a community. Despite my own hesitations or my own judgments on law enforcement, there is no way to make changes without joining the ranks of law enforcement. BG: Looking back, you know, on the way you grew up and the way things were then do you think we’re heading in the right direction or were stagnant or they are improving? AM: I think we are heading in a couple of different directions .I think America in itself has a selfcontained idea of how society works in America. I think that there have been many improvements in relations, but there have also been many setbacks as well. I think that certain individuals with the media, you have to remember the media is so big now, it shapes our ideas of life. The news, television, the internet, all of things have a huge impact on the way people think. In general, there are many people who made changes and improvements on how race relations go. We don’t have Martin Luther Kings, we don’t have, uh, many people. The Kennedys and other people. We don’t have the leadership or people who are willing to say the world needs to change like we had, you know, a couple of generations ago. But I think we do have a new group of people who are willing to step up, some of the younger ones, a new group of people who want to step up to the rest of society and say, you know, enough is enough. We need to get beyond this idea of separation and beyond this idea of who is better than who, uh, religious backgrounds, even based on if people are gay or lesbian. I think the world is trying to say, you know, for all of our differences, that’s what makes us the same. I think, through the media, unfortunately, that when something bad happens it is often publicized way more than all of the good that has been done. There are still many people who believe in that old system who are not willing to take part in change. There are many people who believe they have the power to change or to not make change, based on their beliefs. I think those are the people we have to worry about. I think there are people that are in power now and if they had more, we could go back, we could end in the same situation that we were in during all of the riots and the mass killings and bombings or church burnings or all of those things that made things happen. We could go back. I was just the other night, told a statistic, that is kind of scary where I think it was like 46% of all Mississippi Republicans think that interracial marriages should be banned. That’s a scary thought that, that many people think that race is so much of an issue that they need to put a stop to it. And I think there are many people who still believe things like that. I believe that in this country we still have this internal identity crisis or this internal struggle to identify who we really are as a people. I think it is very evident in race as far as race relationships and sexual orientation. We, as a country, believe in freedom of speech and freedom of how we should live , but we don’t understand that what we believe is our choice to believe and that we cannot contain it to ourselves. We think we need to press that belief onto others and we haven’t gotten beyond this idea of, Page 8 �you know, we are individuals first. We can’t put our beliefs on anyone or force that. That is what this whole country was founded on or was supposed to be founded on. The fact wanted to not be controlled and not be pressed by someone else’s or one individual’s idea. So we come to a different country and you know, we can say that we conquered this country, but in a way we left one country to come to another country to find our own identities and be free of someone else’s. I think we still struggle with that. I think internally we still struggle with that. On a broader scale, on a national scale, I think every other country has looked at us as, because we’re a young country yet, especially given the fact that other countries have been around and their societies have been around longer than America as a fully functional country. The rest of the countries look at us as we are immature, still young and how we perceive our way of life, our culture. We’re not identified as a single culture as other countries are. We’re looked at as many different cultures trying to co-exist. I think we have a long way to go to respect it, to truly respect it not as a military or industrial superpower and we’re not even that really anymore, but as a culture. America has not been defined as a culture yet and I think that’s unfortunate because we do have so many different cultures here and so many possibilities, because of that that we truly haven’t embraced yet. BG: is there anything like last thoughts that you want to add AM: Yeah I think that just for anyone it doesn’t matter what color they are, I think what it boils down to, we talked about race relations as a separate entity as a relationship just between people. I think one of the biggest problems we’ve had in this country is to identify that our culture and our history is based off one of same. We have had an identity crisis for way too long, and I think that we should not still be held up by what religion you are, what color you are, what sex you are, what orientation you are, um… we have to coexist. This country, as well as this world in fact, are not going to improve as making things better or making our lives more fulfilled unless we understand that it takes each other to do that. I want a world where my son, and his children, are going to prosper because everyone wants the same thing. Everyone wants to be prosperous, everyone wants to be fulfilled and healthy in every aspect. I think we are so far behind, we allow money, we allow greed, we allow control, we allow fear to dictate how we treat others. We need to go back to the beginning and understand that the only reason that we are a higher intelligence, on this planet, to this date is because we had to rely on each other. There is no separation when it comes down to it. There is no who’s better than who, there is no cultural difference. We are, in fact, a human species, so therefore there is only one culture in that. We are not a separate species, black, white, red, brown, yellow, we are still a human species. You know, uh, we look at the animal kingdom, we are so fascinated on how all these different types of animals within the same species, we look at cats and there is everything from a cat to a lion. We are amazed by the fact that, you know, there is so many different kinds out there we are amazed by, a parrot to a hawk. And we are fascinated by the fact that they are so diverse in every way. There are so many different kinds of everything out there, so many different colors, so many different sizes, so many different shapes, and we are amazed by the fact that this plant has so much to offer us in variety and we can’t see that same thing in ourselves. And I think once we can understand that there is so much we can gain by allowing ourselves to be one culture. And understand that there are so many gifts out there; there are so many things to learn about ourselves, by learning about each other. That once we get beyond those short comings of why we are different that we will truly then be able to embrace ourselves as a human Page 9 �species and be able to move forward from this point. I think we are stuck, I think we are, for so many different reasons we have not gone forward. Since the invention of the wheel we haven’t found anything other than … the wheel. The wheel is still one of our biggest successes. We haven’t gone beyond that, and medicine, for all these things we’ve done with medicine we still can’t cure the common cold. What’s stopping us from being a better people? What’s stopping us from saying, you know waking up one morning and saying, you know, “I’m not going to let anything stop me from being a better person.” When is the last time we went outside our front door and saw someone of a different color and say, I’m just like that person? That person has the right to live, right to breath, the right to be who he wants to be, he, she, who they want to be. When’s the last time someone has stand next to someone of a different background and said, “That’s ok”. I often wonder at times what we would do if we were all the same, if we were all the cookie cutter copy of one another. Would it be ok? Would we not have war? Would we not have class differences? If we all had the same job what would we do? If everything was a white sheet of paper what would we use as paper? Why do we have pencils and crayons and paints if it wasn’t meant to have an abundance of color? Why have trees that turn color? Why go to a forest, if not to look at all the different things out there? Why do we go to the museum if not to see what’s different? I think we need to understand that we have so many examples of why different is good, we don’t see our own success. We are so afraid of what comes after that. We’re so afraid of what happens if we are willing to give instead of take. I just hope that one day that we can finally come to a plan, and just embrace the fact that we are different, that we are going to be different and enjoy what comes next and not be afraid of it. And that’s pretty much all I have to say about that. BG: Alright well thank you and it was good. Page 10 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d2f8e3b61be44bd940da241d487c5b71.mp3 46a4e8cc387c7a9e64bc411b0331a481 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Moore_Anthony Title A name given to the resource Anthony Moore audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Moore, Anthony Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Golden, Brandon Description An account of the resource This is an interview conducted to evaluate the successes, failures, and impact of the civil rights movement at home and abroad; as well as the prospect of how one man wishes to make an impact while serving his community as a future law enforcement office. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-19 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/219f62b64221bf0a5602606da6931317.pdf 698cdcb55628d91b7d24721eb0dd4f6f PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Doug van Doren Interviewers: Shae Johnson, Daniel Gotshall, Derek Wolff Supervising Faculty: Joel Wendland Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/13/2011 Runtime: 00:58:09 Biography and Description Doug van Doren is a pastor of Plymout United Church of Chrrist and he is involved with the community in a number of areas. In this interview he describes experiences of discretionary practices and prejudice toward people of color in the West Michigan area. Transcript Derek Wolff: My name is Derek Wolff. I’m here with Dan Gotshall. Today is December 13, 2011. We are here with the Reverand Doug Van Doren. (To Doug) We are here today to talk about your experiences within the Civil Rights Movement in West Michigan. DW: Before we can do that, we have to get to your basic information. For the record, could you please spell out your full name? Doug Van Doren: Douglas, D o u g l a s Van V a n Doren capital D o r e n. DW: Thank you. Could you give me the date of birth and the place that you were born in? DVD: I was born in Adrian, Michigan, July 13, 1952. DW: Thank you. Could you just tell me briefly about your parents and any sibling that you might have? DVD: Parents are deceased. I have two older brothers and an older sister and a younger sister, so there are five of us all together. DW: What are their names? DVD: Chuck, Carol, Steve and Pat. DW: Ok, thank you. Are you married? DVD: I am married to Colleen Mahone Van Doren, and we have a fourteen year old son, Aiden. DW: Ok, thank you. Your education, going back to high school and did you attend college at all? Page 1 �DVD: Graduated from high school in 1970, attended Eastern Michigan University, graduated with actually a bachelor’s of social work from there in 1975 and then went to grad school at the University of Chicago at the Chicago Theological Seminary. Graduated with a Master’s in Divinity from there in 1978. DW: Ok, your community involvement, professions and any political affiliation or preferred political party. I’d imagine, and I’m sorry to cut you off here, your community involvement and profession that a lot of that is going to revolve around the Plymouth United Church of Christ. DVD: Right, I’ve been a pastor of Plymouth United Church of Christ since 1978 and I’ve been involved with the community in a number of areas. I’ve been a board member and am currently still a board member of the Grand Rapids Urban League. I’ve been involved with the board of and chaired Planned Parenthood of West Michigan. I’ve was involved with Concerned Clergy here in West Michigan and over the years a number of other local organizations and issues. DW: Ok, thank you. I guess, when did you first come to the West Michigan area. I came in 1978. DVD: I was born on the south-east side of the state, came here in the fall of 1978. DW: Ok, and you’ve basically been around the area with regards to, well essentially all of your life except for time spent away at school, correct? DVD: I’ve been in Michigan for that time. The first part, until seminary, was south-east Michigan. DW: All right, thank you. That clears that stage of this process. I guess what I’d like to talk to you first about is just your personal history within the civil rights movement as well, so can you just go back to a time; do you remember the first instance or involvement that you had within a civil rights movement? DVD: First direct involvement, I was after the big civil rights movement in terms of racial justice. I was a child, or at least Junior High, when King was active, so probably my first organized involvements were in seminary working with a number of African-American students just dealing with what appeared to be discretionary practices and prejudice in relations to how people of color were treated in UFC and parts of the seminary community. DW: Ok, I guess, how have you relayed some of those experiences to discrimination of sorts within the Grand Rapids community? DVD: Well, the more you see, the more you learn. And so, having direct involvement with people of color and their perspective began to shape my understanding; as a dominant class person you can’t experience or know those things directly, but if you listen carefully and if you’re trusted by minority folks in these situations then you can get a glimpse of what it’s like, how they see the world and stuff that we dominant culture people miss. So, I think that was probably, that learning process that is still going on of course, at that point. That also branched out into, we were working very hard with divesture issues in South Africa and I was working with that in seminary, which has a lot of links to local discrimination, to discrimination of African Americans here (U.S.). So when I came here I also continued the work, trying to get corporations and so forth to divest from South Africa, which we were successful with the city with some of its funds. Page 2 �DW: Thank you. Dan Gotshall: I guess what it is you think that you think kind of influenced you to go into this kind of area? DVD: That’s a great question; it’s a tough question of course. It’s a basic culture. My parents are, my father especially, they were politically in a different place, politically more conservative but socially they were, for them it was all about fairness and equality. In that regard, they both had a great sensitivity to that. Probably my mother especially, and so even though I don’t remember specific lessons about people of color and where I grew up there were very few people of color. I grew up in rural Michigan; still, that culture of fairness was really, really important in my family and then, my Christian beliefs, as a clergy, for me that is basic to the gospel. Justice, all are God’s children and so discriminating against people and setting up systems that discriminate against people is just anti-biblical as well as far as I’m concerned. DW: Do you ever infuse any of these personal beliefs and also, when you talk about Christianity, it’s just doing the right thing, trying to send the right message; do you infuse any of these into your sermons when you preach? DVD: Oh sure. The church I pastor is very socially active and it understands Christianity to be a liberation kind of a perspective and that Jesus really is the liberator in many kinds of ways. So, it’s central to my understanding of the gospel, therefore to my preaching. Hopefully it goes that way at least. DW: Let’s see here. Let’s talk about your upbringing a little bit as well. You mentioned you have multiple siblings. When you were growing up, did any of your siblings; did any of your family members, any of your friends, really just go through any discrimination against them, or anything along those lines? DVD: I grew up on a dairy farm in a rural community, a sizeable dairy farm. My oldest brother and sister are adopted, which may be, you know, sort of right from there it was clear there was no difference in terms of how valued or loved they were as compared to us, so maybe right from the beginning there was that sense of, you know, it didn’t matter ones origin and so forth, we were equally valued. I don’t remember, and in my family, we were dominant culture people, you know, we’re white, we were rural people. but were dairy farmers and the hierarchy of farmers is just crazy, but there’s a hierarchy there to so the dairy farmers were, as I look back at it, probably at the top of the hierarchy in that community. But, interesting, and actually I went to a one room school house for the first four years of my life, and in the Adrian area there is a fairly large number of people who settled there having been migrant workers, so there’s a fairly large Hispanic, particularly Mexican, population there. There was a family that went to the same one room school house that were on the other side of the school a few miles away and they had a bunch of kids, and some of them were my age. We were allowed, as kids, their parents spoke no English, and I would, I remember going to stay with that family, I’d stay overnight with my friend there, they had chickens in their attic and so forth and culturally were very different from us. But my parents allowed us to do that. We didn’t think anything of it because I was pretty young. That was a really helpful early cultural experience and my parents had no qualms at all about going in to what was the Mexican community for restaurants and it wasn’t like I had a sense that some people stayed out of that Page 3 �community. I think those are just subtle ways, or I guess not so subtle ways that I didn’t understand at the time as a child, but that I took in. DW: Also, when you were growing up, was there anyone that you looked up to within the Civil Rights Movement, or going to college anyone along those same lines? DVD: Well, certainly as I got into later high school and college, certainly Dr. King because that was very vivid at that point, but also Malcom X. I think Malcom X is really underrated in relation to the whole Civil Rights Movement. I think his legacy, it wasn’t a challenge of Dr. King but is was expressing that that whole era of black power and so forth was a really important expression and Malcom X was really key. I still think his autobiography is very powerful and everybody ought to read it. It goes through his transformation and his early influences and Marcus Garvey, going back, certainly W. E. B. Dubois but also Howard Thurman. Howard Thurman is really kind of a mystic, very powerful figure who started the Church of All Nations in San Francisco. He did a number of writings and in fact he wrote Jesus and the Disinherited in 1947. It was really a precursor to the African American liberation theology, powerful, powerful stuff so he’s one that I very much admire. He doesn’t get any credit in terms of the whole justice struggle for African-Americans but he was really very key I think in that. DG: As your career moved on and as you moved into this area, how did your thinking about your identity change and grow? DVD: I guess it grew and solidified as an ally. That’s really because really early on, I was also involved with… even I was out of high school for a year after college, I was out a year before going to college and then that year I was involved with wider church things and got very involved in justice for gay and lesbian people. So I was a youth leader in our denomination state wide structure and so at that annual meeting I was really involved with that so I began to see the need for and the role of allies in a number of liberation studies. You know, that, that role and the identity, the need for that, but also the identity, clarity about the identity in terms of white privilege, because one can’t do this work without doing work on yourself, that’s where most of the work happens for dominant culture people so I think doing that work, understanding that work needed to be done and continues to need to be done is a big part of it. My identity as part of that white privilege class, that takes a lot of work. DW: I’m glad you brought up the concept of the ally, because one of the things I had planned on asking you, and this is one of the things I’m trying from Colette as well, is do you consider yourself to be an ally of the LGBT community? DVD: Oh definitely, definitely. That’s, for whatever reason, just early on it seemed to me that the way people are is the way people are and what threat is that to others. So being able to stand with LGBT people is really important. That’s certainly an area where the church that I pastor has been very strong in as well. We’ve influenced each other I think, and the church’s very, very early public stance of openness toward LGBT people. DW: And for you personally, has that always been a mantra that you’ve had, since a young age, or has that developed in time? Page 4 �DVD: Well it’s developed. You know, at a young age you don’t understand those kinds of things and I was at time when homophobia was rampant, especially amongst high school kids when you’re dealing with your own sexual identity and so forth. Then, even more than now still with many people misunderstanding what orientation is as opposed to same sex attraction from time to time, which everybody has along the way. All that confusion is rampant within adolescent kids; that was the case in the culture that I grew up in. But by late high school or certainly by early college in that year I was off, just came to understand and I guess got to know a few gay people, though I don’t think they were “out” gay at that point, but I just had a sense that that was the case. It was early 70’s, it was just beginning to be kind of an issue, at least amongst folks who were not gay or lesbian in that community, among straight folks, it was just beginning to be a justice issue. So from there on, it was important. In seminary, I went to a very progressive seminary with gay folks there, as well as people of color. It was really a heady mix. So, I think I just continued to grow, and as I grew in terms of my biblical understanding it also deepened, I think, that conviction for justice. DW: When you say that this is something you personally believe in, and that your church is behind this, how has that been received by your congregation? DVD: Well the congregation actually made it happen. In my church that I pastor and the denomination that I am in is pretty much structured from the bottom up, so there’s a great deal of local church autonomy so the church votes on everything. If it’s going to be a policy of the church, the congregation votes. So, really in the late 90s we had no openly out or gay people in the congregation at that point. We had parents and siblings and so forth of gay folks. We decided that this was an issue that we really needed to look at very carefully. So, we did a yearlong study on what we called then homosexuality in the church. Then, after that, we did another year of study on becoming an officially open and affirming congregation. Having done that, we went to the congregational meeting having a resolution to become open and affirming, and the congregation voted. There were two extensions of one “no” vote to become open and affirming, and that was in 1998. Part of that means that you are open , not just with LGBT people, but you’re clear with the community that that is your stance, the feeling being that, because the church has been and in many quarters is still a big part of the problem and the discrimination against gay-lesbian-transgender people, then it needs to be clear if it’s not. It needs to be open and affirming of them just as they are, just because we’re assumed to be against LGBT people if we don’t. So that was what happened and we continued to grow in that regard and with that understanding and even though, as I said, we started out without any “out” gay people in the congregation, 25-30% of our congregation now is LGBT. It’s become who we are; LGBT folks are part of the full life of the congregation, serve every place and there’s absolutely no discrimination about who serves where, including nursery and youth groups and all that kind of thing. DW: So now within the congregation itself and within the community, have you received any negative backlash because of it? DVD: Well, within the congregation when it happened a few people decided to leave, though actually more people decided to come, because that was what they hoped and expected out of a church. Yeah, we certainly, it’s amazing the kinds of negative stuff that comes from the community and people who claim to be , in this case, Christian, but just say all kinds of God-awful stuff in the tape machine and Page 5 �quote scripture to me like I’ve never read it. And, you know, a few threats, but it’s not a few threats toward everybody. I’ve had a few threats doing racial injustice work differently, that I have to work with LGBT issues, so yeah you get that and people who think you’re just crazy and can’t possibly be Christian, but truthfully, I’ve gotten much more support than negatives by folks, and they tend not to be church folks, some of them are, but a lot of them aren’t because they’ve given up on the church, but at least say “yeah, that’s what the church ought to be doing.” So, really probably overall more positive than negative. DW: Have you ever felt that your personal safety has been an issue with this at all? DVD: My general motto is, if people make the threat, they’re probably not going to follow through on it. Only one time with a threat and this is in terms of racial justice issues, I showed a copy of what I received to a fellow clergy, and made a copy of what I’d received just in case something happened. At that point I didn’t feel that it was appropriate to go to the police with it but I definitely wanted somebody else to know and I didn’t share it within the congregation because I didn’t figure that it was, you know, it gets everybody nuts and takes it off what the real issue is and that’s the justice part of it. If there would have been threats made against my family or anything like that, and we live a little ways away from the church in our own home, and it didn’t feel like I wanted to give it any more credence at all really. Fortunately, that turned out to be right. DG: Going with some of the past things you’ve said, what kinds of changes within the community have you seen throughout your involvement? DVD: Well in terms of racial justice issues, really early on part of some of the instances I was involved with were a school superintendent here who is African-American, and this was the early 80s, who is pushed out, and all those issues, there are a lot of issues going on in addition to perceptions caused by one’s race, but that highlighted some of the racism in the community. What I’ve seen is many, many people in the community becoming now really aware of what racism looks like, especially institutionalized racism, which is the definition of racism as far as I’m concerned, and doing a number of things to try and combat that. The business community really, Bob Woodrick was early on really involved with that. I chaired a committee, the Grand Rapids Urban League, which began to really look at racism in the community and out of that, David Bach was a part of that, and out of that came the Institute for Racial Justice, out of race the Grand Rapids Center for Humanism and they did a great deal of really, really fine work with the Racial Justice Institute. Bob Woodrick was working in terms of hiring and in terms of the number of businesses, and so now in the community there are a great number of businesses who are very involved in hiring in non-discriminative ways, putting their law firms, other kinds of firms, businesses of all kinds putting people through cultural sensitivity, all kinds of courses. So there’s a lot that has happened in that regard and I think many more people of color in leadership positions and in positions of more power, influence and responsibility in corporations within the community. Is it a thing in the past? Of course not. You look at economic issues-it’s alive and well .A lot of people’s perspectives, still the discrimination differences based on color is there, if you look at school system and the lack of support by the public school system of Grand Rapids by a number of people especially a number of folks with means. I think you still see lower expectations of people of color within the general public, which is still racist. Page 6 �DW: Going back for a sec, could you please give me the dates served with the Grand Rapids Urban League that you were a member of? DVD: Well, I probably began in the Urban League in about 1981. I’ve been on and off, more on that off most of the time since, including I’m on now. I chaired the Urban League two years, and that was probably…2003, 04 maybe, 2003-2005, somewhere around there. DW: Thank you. Let’s talk a little more about your church right now. Have there been things that you guys have done, to just, reduce discrimination within the surrounding area aside from just hunger drives or to fight social injustice as well? DVD: Well, we’re socially active in terms of mission, which we see in terms of helping individuals and social justice, which we see as trying to change systems. We have a just peace task force that continues to be very active, and the biggest thing that we’ve done, which was local in one way but was really opposing the involvement and the invasion of Iraq. We began with a whole wage peace initiative so we were very involved with that. Beginning with that and still we’ve been very involved with a number of groups and agencies that are involved with anti-discrimination and teaching peace. In addition we’ve used church property to build housing for people with chronic mental illness. Talk about a group discriminated against, in all kinds of ways, in terms of public perception, housing, just everything. So, (we’ve been) directly involved with that group in terms of finding housing and then advocacy on their behalf, or with them. I hate to talk about “on people’s behalf” because it makes them sound like they don’t have power. They do have power; it’s more a matter of standing with them. We also, it terms of more direct kinds of ways we’re also a host for Family Promise, which is a group that houses homeless families in churches on a rotating basis. That’s more of a direct service but it’s working directly with many people. Many people of color are caught up in the whole economic disparity that has been rampant, especially for people of color, for a long time. Other than that we try to be as a congregation very involved with local proposals, like when Grand Rapids included sexual orientation in terms of protected class, in terms of non-discrimination. When things come up in the community that are issues with racial injustice, we tend to be both as individuals in the congregation and as a community, we tend to be pretty involved with that. DW: Thank you. DVD: In terms of talking about the church, and this is an extension of the church, an extension of me, I was part of the group that organized Concerned Clergy, which organized in 1995, 96. There was a whole lot of discrimination at that point against gay folks, so a few of us got together and decided that as pastors, we really needed to take a stand and speak to our churches, to our church communities and to the community at large that LGBT people ought to be part of the full life and ministry of the churches and the community. Not as objects of mission, but as full particiapants. We began gathering clergy and had a sizeable group that did a letter to the community that was published on the front page of the Sunday issue in, it must have been spring of 96 or 97, and at that point, talk about shifts within community’s perception. Prior to our letter, which was signed by about 60 or 70 clergy in West Michigan, and people were amazed that there were that many clergy who were 1) supportive and 2) wanted to sign. Letters to the editor, prior to that, were very anti-gay and they acted like they were Page 7 �speaking on behalf of everybody, that their perspective was the community norm. People who were supportive of LGBT people were writing more defensively. After a year, after our letter to the community came out and we were doing much more support and a number of other things for people, letters to the editor written by people against LGBT people seemed to be defensive, they were no longer speaking on behalf of the whole community. If you weren’t looking for it maybe you didn’t see it, but it was a very clear shift in the community’s perspective, and right around that time is when I take that this community began to shift from just assuming that the Bible and everybody was against LGBT people to having to think about that differently and at least begin to question that that’s not the case. There are some times when you see community shifts and that one for me was pretty clear, that moment in time. DW: Have you ever taken, or thought about taken these beliefs that you’ve certainly infused within the community to sort of a national level? DVD: Well, we’ve been involved and I’ve been involved with, especially our denomination and other denominations in terms of our church’s experiences as well as being involved in advocacy levels on the national level both with our own denomination and with the welcoming movement. I’ve attended a couple times; it’s called Witness our Welcome which is a national gathering of welcoming individuals and welcoming churches. I’ve had a role of speaking there with strategizing and our experiences, so that’s an important thing to try to do this at whatever levels can be done. DW: Gotcha. Sort of just the fight against discrimination today is a lot different than the 1960s. Then it was more of a racial thing, today it’s more fighting for causes, more anti-war, as we’ve been talking a lot about the LGBT movement. Can you sort of compare the two at all or is it more of a different era. DVD: Well, it’s, discrimination and prejudice discrimination and how they’re institutionalized have many, many common threads. All of them at baseline are devaluing people, based on something that is a bias of the dominant culture and so in that they have a great deal in common. As a dominant culture person, I can say that they have a lot of things in common, but I can’t speak for, I can speak for differences I observe but I can’t speak authoritatively for the differences that people in those various groups that have been discriminated against can. A lot of folks sort of lively put the struggle for gay rights and the struggle for racial justice in the same place, and they are very different. There are allies in both of those communities. The dominant culture wants to either put them together as the same struggle or they want to pit them against each other, neither of which is appropriate. The bottom line is the dominant culture’s desire to keep things the way they are and it’s usually, or often an unexamined assumption on what’s most valuable, what’s most important, and then those have become institutionalized. Some of the best people and some of the most non-discriminative people I know are the heads of some of the most discriminative corporations I know, because that’s where racism is institutionalized. The call in all of these areas is to be anti-racist or anti-sexist or anti-orientation bias in that regard. Some of the people in cultures, some of the cultures that have been most discriminated against, like African-American cultures, say yeah, these issues of liberation and discrimination are much the same. There are also some big differences but we of all people ought to be sensitive to other people’s issues around those issues. For me, it’s an issue of justice overall and the step that’s further for me is well being for the whole community because the whole community, including the dominant community suffers when the gifts of various people and cultures are not included. So we need for the best of the whole culture overall, we Page 8 �need the gifts because hopefully there is a selfish part of it as well that really sees the value of those, from the gifts that people bring across the board. That’s what makes these issues and this movement partnerships rather than missions or “on behalf of”. Nobody wants to be, nor should they be, objects of missions. That’s a subtle but really powerful form of discrimination as well. It says, “We need to do this for you, or to you”, we need to do it for ourselves as well and we need to do it in partnerships so everybody gains. DG: So you feel like in the community as a whole you’ve seen a lot of progress? DVD: There has been, there has been a lot of progress. I don’t think can be denied. Certainly, overt racism is much less than it was. There’s still a lot of overt individual prejudice and prejudice that gets mouthed so that people of color certainly get called names or get turned against or turned away from, devalued in many settings, both institutionally and by individuals but not as much as has been the case in the past, so there’s progress being made but that’s not to say that it’s not happening. When it becomes ingrained economically as well, it’s really a component of economic issues and poverty but it’s hard to see where all those threads run and how exactly, clearly there’s that legacy of discrimination and its taken root in disparities, economically as well. In terms of the LGBT arena, certainly great progress made there as well. There are many, many people who are willing to stand up and say, “Discrimination against LGBT people is absolutely wrong”. There’s a lot more places where LGBT people can feel safe and welcome. A lot more church communities now. When we became open and affirming we were the only church outside of the gay-denomination church in town who was openly welcome to an affirming stance of the church. Now there are a number of them and there are more who are welcoming or at least gay friendly. So again, there’s a lot of change in that regard as well but you still get the backlash. Look at Holland. They weren’t willing to pass a, to include anti-gay in their protective class and state-wide, the referendum that made it clear that only between a man and a woman was an official marriage so there’s that backlash, there’s still a lot that still needs to be done. DW: This might be a difficult thing to answer but is it possible for you to measure success in terms of fighting against racial discrimination, social injustice and just the protests of anti-LGBT community? DVD: Well, it’s possible; it’s probably not advisable. It’s possible in the sense that yeah, you can look back and say, “Some things have changed, and some things have changed for the better.” There are times when unfortunately you look back and say, “Gee, things have not changed for the better,” but for me, and I suppose this comes out of my religious stance as well, you don’t do it because you’re certainly going to make a difference, you do it because it’s the right thing to do. There was a great interview, I think it was Daniel Berigen, who was very involved from early on pre-60s but 60s and 70s, all the way through with anti-war, justice of all types and as he was getting older, his years, and this was probably in the late 90s, he was asked, “So many other people who were involved with you early on have dropped out of the movement. They got discouraged. Why are you still involved?” And he said to them, “Well, it wasn’t because I thought I could make a difference, that was what I was called to do.” So for me, trying to work on behalf of, in my religious language, trying to work on behalf of the world you think God intends is what I was called to do. So it’s really nice if you can see progress because that keeps us going. Everybody wants to think they’re doing something worthwhile, but these are huge issues and there is urgency but they also can take a huge amount of time and so continuing that urgency that any more Page 9 �time of discrimination of victims is way too many-that was Dr. King’s point in The Grand Urgency of Now but one also has to realize that sometimes things change slowly. DG: Are there any works or any writing that you hold very highly and represent what you do very well? DVD: Oh boy, yeah but the titles always leave my head. For me, the liberation theologies are really important, the early African-American liberation theologies, the central-American ones, Gustavo Gutierrez, his writings. Women, minority women, This Bridge Called My Back I recall, that was in the early 80s was a really powerful book for me. Walking on Thorns by Ellen Busack was in the middle of the anti-apartheid movement. Further back, Paul Tillick’s Love, Power and Justice was really, really key for me. A number of more recent writings by gay and lesbian people, a number of them now that they’re particularly important. As I said, probably the first book that really began to shift perspective for me was, as I referenced before, Howard Thurman’s Jesus and The Disinherited and there’s a very early writing by Olive Schriener who was a white south-African woman, late 1800s early 1900s who did some writing on women and women at labor on African farms. They’re out of print now, but just amazing things, not as much by what they said, though that’s some of it, but also by who said it out of what era and so forth. Desmond Tutu’s book about hope, really another good one. I try to do a lot of reading in those areas and things that go together in relations between titles and authors, but yeah, there’s a lot of really powerful stuff out there. DW: Thank you. We have talked a lot about the progress that has been made both by you personally, by your church, by the community. Are there any areas that you feel are still lacking in progress or that the least progress has been made in terms of just fighting social injustice? DVD: Well, I think in schools. It’s an entrenched, devaluing of urban school and urban children and I just think that is an area, I think urban children are highly discriminated against. You don’t have to say that it’s intentional or that people are consciously against, but I think if you look at lack of support for, lack of valuation of urban school districts including Grand Rapids, that’s an area that you just can’t deny. Urban kids are devalued. That’s all one needs to know when you’re dealing with discrimination, that a certain group of folks is devalued. And so, that’s cause enough to try to deal with that devaluation, since there’s discrimination, prejudice there that is the root of that. So that’s an area that certainly needs to be. An area that’s beginning to get a little progress, but a huge amount more needs to be made in terms of understanding and non-discrimination is transgender people. There is a much, much larger transgender or what the dominant culture would call gender variant community out there than most folks, especially most straight folks, would understand. They’re in a particularly difficult place because they’re lumped by the dominant culture with gay and lesbian and bisexual folks, but that’s a very different reality. LGB folks aren’t transgender, don’t want to be identified as transgender, transgender folks have a whole different set of things so I think sophistication in that regard, both in understanding and non-discrimination for transgender folks really needs to be, more progress needs to be made. It’s just beginning to happen. DW: I guess to, how do you feel that society will in time, or do you feel that society in time will stop devaluing some of these groups of people? Page 10 �DVD: Well, in relation to LGBT folks, that’s moving very fast; that genie is out of the bottle. So, you see, one has to be careful historically, you see that cultures do go backwards sometimes and the backlash, you see how strong it is with groups like the American Family Association that focus on the family and so forth and even some well-moneyed people in West Michigan giving up a lot of money to those groups that want to turn the clock back on gay rights so you have to be careful and keep working and not assume that this is just going to go forward. But, that as I say, is not going back in the closet, so I think you can see how fast that is moving, surveys in relation to the people who are favor of legal marriage for LGBT people, those have moved up very fast. You see the places and states where that has happened. I think that your generation and people younger than you, so college kids, traditional aged college kids and younger are much, much more open to various people of color, culture, various cultural expressions, so I think that if we can keep the older generations from effecting them too much, and help both the older generation and that generation to see how this is perpetuated in systems that they need to combat, then we’ll continue to make progress on a racial justice scale as well. DW: Kind of the track a little bit, but have you seen the campaign video by Governor Rick Perry of Texas? DVD: I haven’t. DW: Basically, he has this, “Strong” is the title of the video I believe. It’s an advertisement where he goes off against the gay community, and it’s had a huge negative backlash for him personally, but what is your response when someone with political power like that, he’s running for President next year, what’s your response when there is still that sort of ignorance within society, at that kind of level? DVD: Well, it’s scary for one. It makes me angry for another. It’s used for political gain, it may well be his beliefs but it was clear when Bush won his second term that the issues that were put on the ballot had to do in many states, especially the states that were very important in his winning, were ones that dealt with homosexuality especially because they were trying to get out that right wing vote, and it worked. If you look at Ohio, Michigan I believe it was that year, but certainly it was Ohio and some of those key states, so it’s a political strategy as well. He probably believes that, but they’ve seen that they can get mileage out of it. It worries me about what do they perceive that they’re buying into or rather pulling out of the electorate and you know, they’re playing into those prejudices, those fear tactics that the US that we once had, which is probably a fantasy for most people, will come again if we just keep these bad people outside. It worries me on several levels that there are enough people to buy into it along with some other sort of ideological issues that can get somebody, hopefully not that extreme but still same kinds of people who would vote for him would vote for a person who is a little bit less extreme and have that power in the nation. I think you see that in the Michigan legislature. I think it is certainly not at all friendly to LGBT issues, so I find it scary. I would like to find it laughable but I think one needs to take it more seriously than that, but I hope it really does backfire on him. DW: It’s got several hundred thousand dislikes on YouTube now, I believe, compared to just hundreds of likes. DVD: Yeah, but who is sitting there who never gets on their computer who is going to vote for somebody who represents those kinds of views. But that just means that the people who aren’t, the Page 11 �people who think that that is just nonsense need to stand up, you can’t assume that others think that’s nonsense; you got to say that too. DW: Gotcha. That’s really all I’ve got. (To Dan) Is there anything else you’ve got? DG: Yeah, I think we’ve gone over pretty much everything? DW: Okay. (To Doug) Is there anything else personally you’d like to add for the project? DVD: Umm, no. I guess not. It’s been interesting to think of the sort of parallel tracks but not much intersection of the anti-discrimination issues in terms of civil rights for people of color and LGBT rights. I’ve been involved with both of those and people who know I’m involved with both of those, especially even in the black community, are supportive of me in that regard, but it would be, hopefully as we move along there will be less separateness to those two struggles than there is now, so that’s happening but the racial justice struggle really needs to continue, it can’t be overshadowed by anything else. It needs to continue with strong support and advocacy all the way through. It can’t be overshadowed but other ones need to be on parallel tracks so hopefully they will see themselves in concert with each other as well. DW: Gotcha. DVD: All right. DW: Thank you very much. DVD: Yeah, you’re very welcome. DW, DG: We really appreciate it. DVD: It was nice to meet you both. END OF INTERVIEW Page 12 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/12ec7e39525f1491b4913ec11a005e7a.mp3 54534662bdc4d92bc6821d60ca1717c5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Van_Doren_Doug Title A name given to the resource Doug van Doren audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Doren, Doug van Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson, Shae Gotshall, Daniel Wolff, Derek Description An account of the resource Doug van Doren is a pastor of Plymouth United Church of Christ and he is involved with the community in a number of areas. In this interview he describes experiences of discretionary practices and prejudice toward people of color in the West Michigan area. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-13 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6fae1e2c06a3e43e12526ebad874b016.pdf 31fb909e16d9b31f48c40c90b84f1dd3 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Raymond McVeigh Interviewers: Saidah Miller and Lauren Biggs Supervising Faculty: Liberal Studies Department Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 11/29/2011 Runtime: 01:25:28 Biography and Description Raymond McVeigh discusses his involvement with the Pro-Life movement as a Catholic. Transcript Saidah: Ok. So could you give us some basic information about yourself? You name? Your place of birth? RJ: Uh…My name is RJ McVey. Raymond. Everybody calls me RJ. I’m…born near Detroit, Michigan. I’m nineteen years old. Saidah: Alright RJ: I’m from Lansing. Where I was raised. Saidah: Ok. Are you apart of any specific religion? RJ: I’m Catholic. Saidah: Ok. And are you currently employed? What profession are you interested in? RJ: Um…Well… I worked part time with Grand Valley tutoring center. But I’m studying premedicine. Hope to be a medical doctor someday. Saidah: Awesome. Are you apart of any political party? RJ: Not officially. Saidah: Alright. And so you are involved in the Pro-Life movement. What exactly is Pro-Life? RJ: Um… the Pro-Life position would be that human life is intrinsically valuable at all stages of development. Um… that we seek to defend life from conception to natural death. Page 1 �Saidah: Ok , and did you grow up in a Pro-Life household? RJ: Not… I grew up in a Christian household. It wasn’t even really predominantly a Catholic household really. My mother was Methodist and my father was raised Catholic. But it never got spoken of in my household really. I’ve really initiated it within my own family. Now I definitely say we’re, my parents and my brother who still lives at home, I would say they’re definitely a Pro-Life household. Bu it never really was an issue that was discussed growing up. Saidah: Ok. So, what got you involved in the Pro-Life movement? RJ: It really was a combination of a few things that all happened simultaneously. I would probably say it was my senior year of high school. Um… I went to a private Catholic high school and we took, I signed up for the honors Philosophy class for my last year of Theology because we were required to take 4 years of Theology. And so, um, the Philosophy class really was an awesome experience, it was like a small class of just some of the more academically advanced students, (Clears throat), who, it was optional, whether to take the honors Philosophy, which was a year long course or take regular Philosophy which was only a semester long and so it was only people there who wanted to be there and I had an awesome teacher and it really turned into an apologetics type course a lot. Um…And just kinda like logical arguments for why we believe the things that we believe. And that really kinda sparked my interest in just the Philosophy aspect in general and being able to defend my beliefs. Cause you know I had always been Catholic, but really learning how to, why we believe what we believe and how to defend things and during that whole process I really started to realize that Pro-Life issue, there is a few Pro-Life issues. I’m assuming that we are talking specifically about the issue of abortion. Is that, the issue with abortion is that I think that the it’s the most easily, to me it’s the most obvious position that is being an injustice in our society right now and that is the most easily defended, logically, of why we should not be able to take the life of unborn human beings. And so seeing that it could be so... effectively defended, the pro-life opinion on abortion, and that there is such injustice being done by that, really that injustice got me emotionally involved in wanting to act out, to become active in that stance. And then the other thing that happened was about the time I started dating my now fiance, who was the founder of her pro-life group at another university and was president there and really involved and so spending more time around her and at the same time realizing, ya know, really kinda starting to have it sink in what an injustice was being done by this. Those two things really combined into making me really want to devote lots of my time and energy towards this. Saidah: Ok. So your girlfriend, excuse me, fiance, is a definite person who makes you stand strong in your pro-life belief? RJ: Mmmmhmm. Yeah. Page 2 �Saidah: Ok. So, do you have any pro-life heros locally? RJ: Um... Yes. I’d say that I’m the president of Grand Valley’s students for life group but really there is a, a circle of people in our group who are all extremely active and awesome at what they do. And um, they’re all really kind of, they keep me going and I hope that I keep them going and they’re pushed to remain active in this. Ya know my fiance is probably one of my prolife heros, there is a lot of things she does, a lot of types of discrimination that she faces for holding the positions that she, ya know, for being active the way that she is. And being so... I don’t know what the word is... I guess charismatic would kinda be the word I’m looking for, and the way that she is so active and courageous in that, there’s a lot of things she does that I don’t think I’d be able to do and that’s an inspiration to me. Saidah: Ok. Do you have any national pro-life heros? RJ: Yes, um, I’ve actually had the privilege to get to know one of them personally recently. I was **six-upped** into a fellowship for students for life of America, which is the national organization. And they, as a part of that fellowship, is they set you up with like a mentor, of a national pro-life leader of your choosing. And so I’d mentioned earlier that I’m really interested, my thing I feel most passionately about is the apologetics of everything, and so I’d requested a pro-life national apologist who’s name is Scott Klusendorf as my mentor and I get, uh, through the organization they asked him if he’d be interested and he said he was, and so I’ve had the privilege of getting to spend time talking to him. Couple hours every couple weeks and so gotten to know him pretty well. He’s one of my national heros. Along with the people who help run students for life of America ‘cause I really think the students, there’s lots of national pro-life groups but I really think that the students for life group is one of the most important because our age group are the ones that have to face this type of decision the most. Both men and women I think. Saidah: Ok, could you explain a little bit more about the apologetics? I’m not really familiar with that. RJ: Like what? What the apologetic argument would be? Saidah: Yes. RJ: Ok, so you could have me talk for more that two hours on this. Saidah: Take your time! RJ: Ok, so the question that it begins with is you have to realize that the question of abortion is whether or not we can kill the unborn. Alright, but before we can ever hope to answer the question, you know, is is morally ok to kill the unborn, we have to address the question, what is the unborn. Alright, just like if you had a five year old boy walk up to you and ask can I kill this, Page 3 �you would ask ok, well what is it? If he’s got a spider then sure. If it’s his brother by the throat, that’s a problem, the answer I hope would be no. So once we realize that we have to identify what is the unborn. We can look to science to answer what it is. Alright, science doesn’t how we can, how we should treat it, ya know, we’re just looking to science to identify what the unborn are. And so I could go, I could pull out of my bag a bunch of sources for this right now but, I mean, indisputably, scientifically from the moment of conception a new human organism um, is created. It’s a, I forget the technical term right now but it’s something along the lines of reproductive genesis, that species only reproduce other species of their same species. Ya know, humans reproduce humans, chimpanzees reproduce chimpanzees, and so it’s really kinda basic biology that two gametes, two haploid cells from a women and a man come together and that forms what, the first cells, called a zygote and that is a new organism. And what species is it? It is a human species. It is a unique human organism. Alright but that doesn’t tell us how we should treat it, that just tells us what it is. And so, now that we know that it is a human organism we, I’ll assume that most people I talk to will agree, that born humans are intrinsically valuable. Ya know, that we shouldn’t kill toddlers, that it’s wrong to kill people. Alright, people generally agree with that when we’re talking about people like you or me. And so the way we address this is ok, well what’s the difference between that first unborn, ya know that first cell that is a human being, what’s the difference between that unborn human being and a born human being that would make it ok to kill the unborn human being but not ok to kill the born human being. And so if you can find one of, a difference between the two that we agree does change their intrinsic value, well then you could conclude that abortion would be ok. But so, I can identify four differences that I think sum up all the differences between an unborn human being and a born human being. And those are size, their level of development, their environment, and their degree of dependancy. Alright. And I could go through each, all four of those in depth to try to explain why those don’t change a human being’s intrinsic value. I think size and environment are the most obvious. Alright. Bigger human beings aren’t more valuable than smaller human beings. I’ve never met a person who would disagree with that. So that’s the size one. Environment, I think is also pretty easy. Ya know, if I’m standing here I’m the same worth as if I were standing over there. Ya know, we don’t generally believe that your location changes how much you’re worth. And the other two differences are the level of development and their degree of dependency. Now these two you’ll sometimes ya know, have some people dispute these. I think the level of development is... pretty, you can get people to understand that that does not change your value when you, because where, we change in our level of development our entire lives. Ya know, five year old girls are much less developed than eighteen year old women. Eighteen year old women have a fully developed reproductive system, they have a more developed brain, they’ve developed life experiences, where as the five year old girls doesn’t have any of these things. Yet we all agree that the five year old is of the same intrinsic value of the eighteen year old. It’s just as bad killing the five year old as it Page 4 �would be killing the eighteen year old. So I, using examples like that I think that we can conclude that the level of development doesn’t change the value of a human being. And then the last difference is the degree of dependency. Now this one you probably will spend the most time discussing with people if you’re talking about the apologetics. People will, most pro-choice people will cling onto this and say the, how much a human being is dependent on other human beings does change their value. I would disagree and I think I can provide examples why. Because, you could use an example of like an infant. An infant is dependent on their parents for just about, as much as an unborn human being. An unborn human being fetus, if you removed all of it’s dependency on it’s parents, it would die. If you removed an infant from all their dependency on their parents, it would die. If parents neglect to feed their infant child, they’ll get convicted of murder or the equivalent thereof. And so if we believe that’s wrong to kill an infant, well then, and it’s wrong to kill a ten year old and the difference between those two are the dependency on their parents, well then I think we can conclude that the dependency doesn’t change how much they’re worth. And also, since this dependency one is usually harder for a lot of people to agree on, I also like to use the example of we’re all dependent on each other on some level. Maybe it’s not the same exact amount, but none of us are perfectly independent. Ya know, just by the nature of the types of beings that we are, we’re social creatures, we’re dependent on each other. And we’re all dependent on each other in different amounts. And so if we were to dictate that our dependency on each other changes our value none of us would be equal because of that fact that we all depend on each other in different amounts and so then we can conclude that you can’t consistently hold a view of human equality if our dependency on each other changes how much we’re worth. And so since most people at least in our country agree that people are equal, I think you can point out that you can’t consistently hold that view if you’re going to say depending on other human beings changes how much you’re worth. And so with those four differences pretty much every objection that people bring up about the differences between an embryo, or a fetus, and a toddler fall into one of those four categories and I think you can show that none of those things change how much a human being is worth. So that’s a kind of quick version for me anyways. Saidah: So how has being pro-life shaped or changed your life? RJ: Um.... a lot of the relationships I have, a lot of the friends that I have, through the pro-life activism that I’ve done, like Lauren here, it’s really gotten, it’s helped me become even firmer in some of my beliefs outside the pro-life issue too, just because you know, I’ve been in debates and things, on abortion and so um, I mean anybody who knows me really well knows that I don’t like to do things unless I know I can succeed at the them , it’s almost a problem that I have, that I don’t like taking risks, so in order to go into a debate, you know when you go into a debate you’re risking a lot, you can be embarrassed, people laugh at you, um, you could fumble over your words, you might just kinda forget what you wanted to say, it’s like I know I had a Page 5 �rebuttal to this, I just can’t think of how to put it together right now! You’re risking a lot, so when I’m like preparing to go into a debate or something, I was in a debate a couple weeks ago and I spent like weeks and hours a day ahead of time going over my stuff, making sure I have all my facts straight, especially when you’re going into a debate arguing the side that is politically incorrect. ‘Cause if you’re going to argue something that’s politically incorrect in front of, ya know, over a hundred people, you better have your stuff together otherwise you’re in trouble. Um, and so just having that almost tediousness of wanting to make sure I have my, that my logic is founded well and that I know how to respond to objections to things, um, having that type of focus on one issue really kinda broadens into my other issues too, like my belief in God, would be an example of one of the biggest ones obviously. Um, and I want to make sure that I understand, ya know, why I believe this and to be able to conclude that it’s not crazy for me to hold this belief, that I have reasons why and that it makes, that it’s better reasons than the counter argument. And so it’s really helped me with that and being founded in all of my beliefs. Saidah: All right, and I know we kinda talked about a little bit about abortion. So, could you give us like just a general overview of what you know about abortion. RJ: Well there is medically two types of abortions, a spontaneous abortion and a induced abortion. Spontaneous abortions obviously you can’t really do much about, they’re spontaneous, nature does ‘em. Ya know, that’s nature doing it. Saidah: Is that also called a miscarriage? RJ: Yes. There’s been some, uh, dispute recently amongst the medical community, some people really want it to, officially change the term from spontaneous abortion to miscarriage because of the bad connotation that comes along with the word abortion now. With, so miscarriage versus abortion, sort of the same thing. One happens spontaneously uh the other one is you’re doing it on purpose. Um, it removes an unborn human being from it’s mother’s womb, except most of the time it really does more that just remove it. People often times like to think, ya know, it’s just like removing life support, but most abortions are done through suction, which tears apart the unborn human being. Or chemicals which burn it, basically dissolve it, and so I mean there are some cases where it is kinda more like simply removing, but the majority are done where it’s more really actively killing and um, so I mean like, the analogy that I have that I think makes a lot of sense, it’s a little bit gruesome but people like to think that it’s like removing life support but its more like removing life support by first shooting the person in the head. Um, really. If you’re going back to this, that argument that human beings are the same, it’s not merely removing life support. It’s actually killing them and then removing them. Which I think is a significant difference. But so, uh, does that answer the question? Saidah: Yeah, definitely. Could you kinda talk about how abortion affects women from what you read and learned in your life? Page 6 �RJ: M hmmm. I know that um having an abortion, this has kinda become a controversial statement, that having an abortion increases your risk of breast cancer. Which to the best of my knowledge, best of my medical knowledge, is true. I’ve tried to become educated on both sides, some scientists and people say that there really isn’t any connection btw the two where as scientists on the pro life side have tried to explain that having an abortion does increase your risk of breast cancer. To the best of my knowledge that’s true. Other side effects is that it increases your risk of having spontaneous abortions in the future, which I think makes a lot of sense. Post abortive stress syndrome is another one that, it’s another thing that’s disputed. It’s not recognized by some organizations. It is recognized by some other organizations. I mean, I know personally I’ve meet women that have had abortions and suffer from the guilt of what they’ve done and that never really seems to go away. Ya know, I’m not going to say that’s going to happen to everybody who has an abortion, I’m sure there are people that have abortions who don’t feel that way afterwards, whether or not you feel that way, I don’t think changes what an abortion is and what it does. So when I’m discussing with people why I believe in that abortion is wrong, that’s not necessarily something that I would bring up because,ya know, I think as a **(inaudible)** it’d be a reason not to, but it doesn’t really come into play when you’re talking about why abortion is wrong. But, I mean, these are a few of the negative side effects, I’m sure there are some women who have abortions, don’t have any side effects but I know there are women who have abortions that do suffer from a lot of side effects. So. Saidah: Ok. Do you see an end to legal abortion? RJ: Like do I perceive one in the future? Saidah: Mmmhmm. RJ: Yes. I believe it’s possible. I wouldn’t be doing this if I didn’t think it were possible. It’s become very close, and ya know, we’ve come very close to it in the past. I mean the real reason of why I don’t think abortion is illegal already is because of the fractions within the pro life movement. If all the organizations that are pro life would all come to agreement and stop vying for kinda like popularity or ownership of the issue and just be able to submit it, ya know like this isn’t about me personally getting acknowledged for anything, I just want to help end this. I mean abortion would have been outlawed like in the eighties, there had been pro life majorities in congress enough for an amendment because at this point that’s basically what it would take. It would take either a judicial review of Roe V. Wade or it would take a constitutional amendment in order to outlaw abortion. If we went the judicial route, or were able to get the judicial route and throw out Roe V. Wade then they would go back to, then it would be a state’s issue on whether or not abortion would be legal. Where as if you went the amendment route, then it would be nationally outlawed. But yes, I think it’s possible. Lauren: Do you see it in your lifetime? Page 7 �RJ: Uh, Yes. I believe it’s possible. But uh, if someone came here in a time machine and told me it’s not going to be in my lifetime I would be any less active. I had some people give the analogy of the abolitionist movement. That push to outlaw slavery. In that it’s kinda like passing on a candle from generation to generation. If any generation down the line drops the ball, and doesn’t pass it on to the next generation, then we’d still have slavery. So I mean whether or not abortion is outlawed in my lifetime, does not change my motive to be pro life and to be actively pro life but obviously that’s the goal. Saidah: Alright. So what do you think women can learn from the pro life struggle? RJ: Um...There...I mean as a man, there’s, I’ve, I can’t help but notice that there’s this... I guess you’d call it a stereotype from the pro choice side, that tries to paint all pro life men as trying to control women. I never quite understood that because I’m not sure what I would gain from it. I mean, I’ve honestly sat down and tried to think, ok what would personally be in this for me by changing this. The only thing I can honestly think of would be that someday down the road when i’m working, not in school any more and my supervisor of boss was a women who becomes pregnant and would otherwise have had an abortion but if abortion were illegal could not and then had to go on maternity leave and then I would maybe have a chance to take their supervisor job or something like that. I mean, other than that I honestly can’t think of anything that I would personally gain from outlawing abortion and frankly I think that’s kinda far fetched and maybe this is me being prideful but IF I wanted to control women i’m pretty sure that I could do something that would be better at controlling women than that, (Chuckling from interviewers) than you know, putting in hours, ya know, into this every week during my college education. I just don’t, that’s the one thing I guess if I could, like send a message for women to learn I guess, it’s just that pro life men aren’t trying to control you. It’s really just because I believe all human life is valuable. But other than that just that, um, what women can learn from the pro life struggle...it’d just be that, I mean one of the most common reasons women cite for having an abortion is that they feel like they have no other choice. Which I think is kinda ironic. And I can see that, ya know, that women are pressured by their boyfriends, by their husbands, by their families, especially young women, teenagers pressured by their families. And I think that something that I’d like them to learn from the pro life struggle is that, ya know, we’re here because we want to support you. We want to support your family. Ya know, when pro life people are, ya know, protests are outside abortion clinics, it’s not to condemn you it’s to show you that, ya know, we support your other option, as to have your child, we want to support you in that way. Saidah: Ok, so if you or a friend was faced with a crisis pregnancy what would your advice be? RJ: Luckily I’ve really only been faced with this situation once and my friend chose to have her child. And I’ll be the first to admit that this probably isn’t my forte, this isn’t what I feel that I’m Page 8 �great at, just kinda general of giving advice, I don’t think I’m the greatest at giving advice. And because it’s much different there because ya know I’ve pointed out I’m really into the apologetics thing, ya know where as when somebody’s actually faced with the situation that’s usually not what you want to do. (chuckles) Is,ya know, provide out logical arguments and things like that because that’s not what it is about anymore, it’s an emotional issue at that point. I think the apologetics stuff I much more suited for an academic level, like debate, conversing amongst people who don’t really have any personal stake in the issue at that point when they’re discussing it, where as when there’s somebody actually facing the crisis of pregnancy, it becomes much more personal and much more emotional and that’s really when, just kinda like emotional issues in general, it’s more important just to be there for that person and support them. So I guess if I had a friend who was faced with that situation I would tell them that I care about them no matter what they do, that their decision doesn’t change their worth, that they’re still a valuable person regardless of what they do but that I do believe that abortion is wrong and that if you’re willing to listen to why, I would be happy to explain to them why I believe it’s wrong. I’d be sure from a medical perspective to point out that, just how, it’s really, like I said, it’s basic biology but people just kinda seem to, it’s almost like a willful negligence or willful ignorance of the facts. Just explain like, ok, scientifically this is a human being who by definition is your, I mean you can use the word offspring, it’s your child, just scientifically say like I know that you believe in that people are valuable , I believe people are valuable and I believe that your unborn child is a person and that I would encourage you to give your child life and i’d love to be willing to support you in making that decision and maybe and find other people who have the means to support them in a more concrete way, ya know, financially or something like that. Lauren: Pro life groups and I know students for life of Grand Valley has been quoted saying “Eliminate the crisis, not the pregnancy.” Could you give some examples of places in western Michigan that you’re aware of that can help women in a crisis pregnancy? Saidah: I mean, the first one that I know of, because we work closely with them is Lakeshore Pregnancy center. Which is right outside, right off Grand Valley campus. Speaking as a catholic, I know that most catholic churches, if somebody went to them and said hey I’m facing this tough situation that they’d have people who’d be more that wiling to help and show support. I mean, outside that just basically any pro life group. In the pro life movement there’s kinda two sects. This isn’t the division that I was talking about before, there’s just kinda two groups that focus on two different aspects. There’s the crisis pregnancy centers which focus on that more personal, emotional aspect I was talking about and those are the groups that I would refer to a friend who was in this situation. And so the local one is the Lakeshore pregnancy center. And then the other group within the pro life movement is the more right to life groups. Which are more about the activism, to people who aren’t necessarily facing this right now but just Page 9 �showing them what abortion is and why we should be against it. That’s more about, along the APOLOGETICS type line, the more, like the legal aspect and things like that, where as the crisis pregnancy centers are the ones who personally work with women who are, and families really, who are faced with this situation. And so those are the types of groups that I would refer people to. Does that answer the question? Saidah: Yes. Yes it does. So we know your involved with students for life, how long have you worked with this organization? RJ: Students for life of Grand Valley, two years, a year and a half now. Well I guess sort of, if we’re talking about students for life in general, I started in high school. ‘Cause I went to a catholic high school and we had group of students who were pro life. We didn’t officially have a group then, I think at my high school they’ve now started an official group but I mean students for life of America, the national organization, a year and a half. Saidah: Alright. So could you give us some of the goals and purposes of this group? RJ: Well, I mean the technical goal, as stated in our constitution is to provide an outlet for students to express the belief that abortion is morally, ethical and socially wrong. To promote values of life that value human life from conception to natural death. So those are kinda like a big picture goals. Some of the more smaller, concrete goals would be, like what we do is we every year have an event to for, like a fundraiser for the local crisis pregnancy center that I was talking about a second ago. We go to the national march for life every January on the anniversary of Roe V. Wade to be active in demonstrating ya know that’s more along the legal lines of protesting, saying that we as a, we as individuals of this country don’t believe that we should be allowing this to happen. We also do things like participate in 40 days for life. Which is a nationally organized event but the way we get involved is through locally, spending time and prayer outside of the local abortion clinic. We try to initiate dialogues between students on this issue, we try to initiate dialogue between our group and the pro choice group on campus, not always successful, but we always try to initiate those conversations. Saidah: Is students for life a religious group? RJ: Students for life is NOT a religious group. While most people in are group are, you could say religious, I don’t really like the word religion in general kind of. I don’t believe in a religion, I believe in the truth. But um, (chuckles) but no, we are not a religious group. We can fully and completely make our case without any sort of religion at all. I think that might be seen in the apologetic argument I put forward earlier, in that faith, religion wasn’t brought into that at all. We simply start with the assumption that we all agree that we shouldn’t kill people, that we shouldn’t kill born human beings so that’s not necessarily a religious claim, that’s kinda just a Page 10 �common agreement amongst people, and then we build our argument from there using science and philosophy. And logic. Saidah: Ok, so what as a student for life organization done in the community to help spread the pro life message? RJ: We regularly bring in speakers, hold events on campus. Typically every year we have at least one cemetery of innocence, which it’s what we call our demonstration where we will set up a certain number, like kinda reserve a space of grass outdoors and we’ll set up a certain number of crosses usually, and then have signs that say ya know, each cross represents blank amount of human beings aborted every day or every year, type thing. To kinda demonstrate the number of abortions that take place and how many human lives are being taken. So that’s one of the things we do to try to publicly get the pro life message out. In addition to the speakers, we do tabling. And a lot of those events are part of what we call fire and ice week. Just kinda like a co-hosted event with our pro life group and the pro choice group on campus. Originally the idea was that both groups would cosponsor each others events to like, student government, to maybe get like more funding for each group’s individual events. And then it kinda becomes like an abortion awareness week where both groups everyday of the week hold extra, like an event every day to advocate their cause. When this first was initiated here on Grand Valley’s campus, it ended with a debate at the end of the week between the two groups. That was the original idea it’s kind of changed since then, so that’s when we do things like the cemetery of innocence, we bring in lots of speakers and a couple other things like we’ll bring in a speaker who has a personal testimony on abortion maybe that they received or that they had type thing. We’ll bring like a pro-life obstetrician slash gynecologist who will speak on medical aspects. So we do a lot of those events during what we call the fire and ice week. But we periodically have these type of events all year round. Saidah: Could you describe an experience that caused you to be pro-life? RJ: You know really, I haven’t had, I have been blessed to not have been personally connected to that many people facing that type of situation to my knowledge anyways. Really, the most personal experience would be the two things I said in the beginnings. One, my philosophy class my senior year of high school. And in particular the personal relationship I had with the teacher, and then my relationship with my fiancee. Saidah: Could you, you had mentioned previously that you had done some type of prayer at an abortion clinic. Were there any experiences within those sessions that you came face to face with talking to a woman facing an abortion and if so how did that affect you? RJ: Yeah, when I’ve spent time praying slashing protesting I guess you could call it at the clinics I personally haven’t really spoken to any of the women going in or coming out. And a big part of Page 11 �the that is just tactically being with other people who are there for the same reason and women who are faced with the situation probably don’t want to be speaking to some stranger college guy. You know, if I was faced with the situation where a woman was going to get an abortion and I was the only one there, like it was a friend of mine, yes I would initiate talk to them about this, try to be compassionate. But you know when I’m there with a group of people, like I’ve done this with my fiancee before. She will try to initiate conversation with the couples, with the women going in and out. She has started communication with people like this. So personally I have not. I’ve seen it happen, i’ve seen couples come out of the clinic because you know sometimes it’s just because me and the group of people were there, just because we were there that we were showing support basically, they changed their minds, they didn’t get an abortion just because they saw people there. And then other times I’ve seen it happen because people have gone to them and talked to them and ya know, kinda been there for them. I think it means a lot to people when they realize that people, when the pro life people are outside the clinic because they care, I think when they realize that, they maybe even if they think we’re wrong in what we believe, just when they realize that we’re there because we care, I think that means a lot regardless of whether or not you think it’s a human being that’s being killed or not. Just to see that somebody feels so strongly about that that they want to be there to show compassion for you. I think that means a lot to people. Saidah: Ok so are there any particular experiences that you’ve had with the pro life movement that have been monuments to you or that has really shaped and defined your belief? Lauren: That’s a good question. RJ: Yeah. The most powerful experience I think I’ve had was the time, the first time I was at the clinic. The one I’ve been at the most is near Flint, Michigan which is where my fiance’s from. And I was with there with her and her student’s for life group and some people from the local right to life group and that clinic, the time that they do abortions are early Saturday morning. And the reason they do this is to discourage people from coming out and being there. And so when I’ve gone with them before it’s kinda gruesome because you literally got to get up at like six o’clock in the morning on Saturday to go out there because they do their abortions between seven a.m. and ten a.m. on Saturday morning. And so sometimes it’s a little gruesome, you usually don’t want, not gruesome but grueling is the word I’m looking for. Ya know, you don’t want to, you want to sleep in. But I’ve dragged myself out there with them a couple times and the first time that we had a couple come out of the clinic and, we hadn’t talked to them beforehand, we had had the people try to talk to them beforehand but they had ignored us and just gone to the clinic and twenty minutes later came out and we didn’t know what was going on, they just went to their car but then they pulled around by us and asked, hey do you have any information, we usually have flyers with information about pregnancy support group flyer type things, came around and asked do you have any information that we could take, and we Page 12 �were like Yeah! Sure! We were excited because we don’t always get people come up and be willing to talk to us. And we asked do you know anybody who’s faced with an abortion and the women was like yeah, I was supposed to have one today. And they said, we’re not having one anymore, and they both just looked so happy and it was the day before mother’s day which was really cool. Saidah: Oh wow. RJ: And honestly they looked, and this isn’t me just being biased, they looked happy. They were both smiling. That was probably the coolest...and everybody, our group was there, there was probably like six to eight of us that were there, we were all so excited. And then my fiance Brianna started crying because she cries whenever she’s happy, that was pretty, that was a powerful, emotional experience that kinda keeps me going sometimes when I don’t, when I’d rather put more effort into something for myself. That keeps me going with giving up that extra time and effort for those couples that are faced with those decisions and those lives that are in the balance. Saidah: Have you had any personal experience like those on campus when you’re having any type of events? RJ: Not from people who were facing this decision or had faced this decision but I have had people come up to me who are just really encouraged to see such support on our campus for the pro life movement. None of them were like, really impacting, they were always encouraging and really appreciated but not like that other experience I was talking about. Those are kinda, ya know, because they mean so much to you they are rare. They wouldn’t mean as much to you if they were common I don’t think. Saidah: That’s true. So have you ever had any type of repeat type experiences like that? Have you ever had any really bad experiences with the abortion clinics? RJ: Uh, yes. (All laugh) I kinda like the bad experiences stuff sometimes. Because I, one of the experiences, it was just like a month or two ago when we were doing 40 days for life we had a few people from our group go, and there’s this guy who was walking towards us to go past us on the sidewalk and he looked like a college aged guy, and so there were probably three or four of us kinda lined up, side to side, in front of the building. And he walked by and as he passed each of us, he turned, about this far from our heads and, what did he say?... He said something pretty vulgar. He had the F word in there and he said like, you’re a f’ing idiot or something like that to each of us as he walked by and just kept walking. Oh and then when he got to me he changed it up a little bit, he said that to like the other three people and then he got to me and he changed it up and threw the f word in there twice or something. To me it’s just so Page 13 �outrageous, I don’t even get angry, I just kinda laugh and, I mean, to be honest, I think i’d rather have everybody respond that way then to have everybody just walk by. Saidah: Mmmhmm. It lets you know that they’re paying attention. RJ: Right. To know that people notice. I don’t know, it doesn’t bother ME if people say that. Doesn’t change the facts, doesn’t change what I think is true. You know, I’m not doing this because I think it’s going to make me popular. So that’s definitely not a factor, when people say negative things toward me. I’m just doing this because I’m following what I honestly believe is true, ya know. I mean, I’m open to anybody showing me reasons and evidence for why what I believe is true isn’t true but until that happens i’m going to follow it. And so when I have those negative experiences it doesn’t really discourage me at all, it kinda Encourages me, to notice that people are noticing and that we’re getting to the people that disagree with us. So. (chuckles) Saidah: So was there, besides that one, any other moments that you had in your life that you remember being treated differently for for your pro life stance? RJ: Oh yeah. I like it when we table. ‘Cause I think one of the things that, when we table, obviously like I said earlier we’re a politically incorrect group basically. Saidah: Could you describe real quick what tabling is? RJ: Ok. Tabling is an event, or is an activity that all student organizations on our campus and on most campuses can do. And they just reserve a time in a big, social building, for us it’s Kirkoff, where you just kinda get a table off to the side of the hallway and you can set up posters and everything for your cause and it’s and opportunity for anybody who sees your group, says hey I might be interested in getting involved with that group, to come over and talk to a couple of people from the group about what they do, what that person would do to get involved, that type of thing. That’s something that we do periodically. Usually once every couple weeks, just for a few hours. Usually it’d be like in the University student union building type thing. Kirkoff is basically Grand Valley’s equivalent. As to being treated differently, when we table we have this box of fetal development models, of lifelike, to scale kinda rubbery models of the development of a fetus every few weeks. And so part of our posters and stuff we put on our table when we table, we have these out there, sitting out and we get so many weird looks. (laughs) Because they basically look like little naked babies. Especially when we’ll just schedule people to table from our group, take like one hour shifts type of thing, and every now and again it’ll end up with just, we usually try to have two people at a table at a time, every now and again we’ll end up having two guys at the table and whenever we have to guys at the table is the best. (chuckles) ‘Cause so many people give us weird looks and i’ve heard people, i’ve seen like a couple girls walk by and one whispers to the other, it’s always a couple of guys. Sometimes it Page 14 �makes me feel a little, it doesn’t make me feel embarrassed or anything because it’s not like I think that people are going to judge me differently by, it’s only fear that it is going to, that people are going to take it as reinforcement of that stereotype that I was talking about earlier of men trying to control women. That’s really my only apprehension when that happens because I honestly, I can say personally that’s not true for me, I guess I can’t speak for the personal attentions of every pro life man out there but it’s not the reason that men are pro life. So, ya know, people see what they want to see though, if somebody’s already pro choice and they think, ya know, they’re telling themselves that and then they see two guys at the pro life table sometimes I worry that we’re just reinforcing that but that’s the time that I’m definitely treated differently. Saidah: Alright, are there any other experiences that stick out in your mind that you’ve had with the pro life movement? Were they good, bad, indifferent? RJ: I mean there’s a lot of frustrating examples. Because, I mean... Saidah: Tell us about ‘em! (chuckles) RJ: Alright, well this kinda goes along with how people tend, there’s another stereotype that all pro life people are just religious nuts. Ya know, that pro life people are pro life because their bible tells them to be, is a stereotype that is completely untrue. Crap, I kinda forget where I was going with this. (chuckles) For example we, I was in a debate a few weeks ago on another university’s campus, on my fiance’s campus and when they met with the pro choice group, it wasn’t purely a pro choice group, but it was like a secular students for free thought group who were going to be arguing the pro choice side.When they met to get together to just kinda discuss how they were going to set up the debate and everything, somewhere amongst the conversations, I wasn’t there, but I was told that somewhere amongst the conversation it got mentioned that we weren’t going to be talking about religion and the other group was shocked, like they couldn’t understand, like what? the pro choice group isn’t arguing about a religion? And they were like, no, we use science and philosophy and they were like, they couldn’t understand that. That’s a time when it’s a little bit frustrating but at the same time satisfying because you’re breaking stereotypes but, I remember where I was going with this originally though, is that there’s this idea amongst pro choice people that I’ve experienced, you know, I’m not going to claim to know what all pro choice people think but there definitely is this general consensus that being pro choice is kinda like the more enlightened, I guess you could say, this is really in the media, that being pro choice is the enlightened, tolerant individual who, and is kinda anti-religion, because there is this idea that being pro life IS religious, and so it’s kinda this idea that it’s the anti-religious, enlightened position that fights the power of the church or something. But the people who tell themselves that, that they’re somehow being kind of rebellious and strong by being pro choice is completely false. There’s nothing more anti- Page 15 �establishment then being pro life. I mean if you want to fight the establishment join the pro life cause. Ya know, especially in the universities and just in the government and the policies it’s all directed towards why abortion should be ok. If you want to have something to be antiestablishment it should be pro life. And so the most obvious example that I’ve had of this personally is right now I’m taking a human genetics course and there was a section basically on genetic and chromosomal abnormalities. And so examples of this would be like down syndrome. Down syndrome is caused by an individual having three copies of the chromosome 21. You’re only supposed to have two. And so during the section we were supposed to study the causes of down syndrome and a part of this was how to detect down syndrome and so it’s common practice for many doctors, for many women that are pregnant, is that they’ll test the fetus before it’s born to see if it has down syndrome. And so, I mean, that in and of itself, testing to see if your unborn child has down syndrome is’t necessarily bad. If you’re doing it with the intention of, ok, if it does I’m gunna kill it, that’s a problem. But there could be legitimate causes, you know, if anything, you just want to know, so that you can prepare so that when it’s time to give birth you’re not all of a sudden shocked to find out that your newborn child has down syndrome, that’s understandable, to be mentally prepared for that. But so a part of this in my genetics course was that we’d have like a sample question that says, ya know, it’s supposed to be like a clinically orientated question, where it’s like, ok, say you’re the doctor and a women comes to you and she’s two months pregnant and she has, say an uncle with down syndrome and she has a two year old son already who has down syndrome. And so what you’re supposed to answer is what should you do as the doctor about this. And so it was a multiple choice question and one of the possible choices for answering was order an immediate induced abortion. And that really upset me. There were a few questions like that on the worksheet that we had. Granted it wasn’t the right answer that you were supposed to get but it was still there. The right answer was to basically, to test to see if it has down syndrome and then that’s almost implying oftentimes that, ya know, well if it does we shouldn’t let it live. So I mean that’s just one of my personal examples of how being pro life is anti-establishment. Other frustrating circumstances... there’s a lot of circumstances like that one I said about the being protesting at the clinic. I mean, I’m usually surprised if we’re there and we don’t have at least one car drive by and honk at us, in a bad way.There’s good honks and there’s bad honks and you start to, after you do it a couple times you figure out the difference. Usually good honks are one or two quick ones, bad honks are “EEEEEEENNNNNHHHHHH” (makes obnoxious honking noise) as they drive by and sometimes they’ll like slow down to like ten miles per hour as they go by so that they can honk at you longer. It’s happened. (Interviewers chuckling) Other frustrating ones are, I’ve had frustrating circumstances when I’ve got on to this topic with like some of my roommates, some of my closer friends that I’ve gotten to know through college. It’s just frustrating because to me it seems so straightforward, but I know that’s because I’ve spent so much time going over why I believe this. And so to me it seems straightforward but, then Page 16 �when other people, like when I say two gametes form a zygote, that’s a new human being, to me that’s a scientific fact. When people are like, ya know, I don’t know if that’s true, I’m like ugh! When we live in a society that’s so dominated by the bias of scientific materialism, basically the belief that science rules all, and yet the one or two times, the one time when that is in our favor people are questionable about it. (chuckles) To me, being a more kinda intellectual, science, philosophy, apologetics orientated guy that that’s really frustrating to me. Saidah: So could you give us some historical events that have happened in your lifetime regarding the pro life movement? RJ: When you say historical events, you mean like nationally historical or like historical in my past? Saidah: Both. The progressions that the pro life movement has made. RJ: Well, I don’t, I’m probably not the best person to talk about that because I’ve only really been active for a few years. Ya know a big part of it takes place on the political stage, since that’s how legal action gets done. And I’ve really only started to follow politics or anything for like maybe a year or so. Now I feel like I follow stuff pretty regularly, like in the news and politically and stuff. But, I mean I know that just a few weeks ago like in the state of Mississippi there was a proposal that they called the personhood amendment or something like that, that would establish in Mississippi’s state constitution that personhood begins at conception, basically saying that all human beings are persons. Because that’s basically what the conversation becomes about is human being versus person, you have to start drawing a line in between there when you, when everybody agrees on the scientific fact that a zygote is a new, unique, human organism. Scientifically the fact is that is a human organism that belongs to the human species. And so the pro choice groups have to start coming up with reasons why that’s a human but why it’s not a person when they start drawing this line between being human and being a person. Which I think prior to this or if you were to ask, like a child who tends to have a simplistic view of things, I think it’s kinda more common sense to say that well that all people are people, all humans are people. So basically what this Mississippian amendment tried to do a few weeks ago was define that saying personhood begins when the human begins. And so this was faced with a lot of controversy and the group who organized this legislation wasn’t actually the politicians, it was one of the right to life groups I talked about earlier who focus on the legal aspects. They purposely went to Mississippi into this because Mississippi is one of the most conservative states. And they tried to push this into their constitution so that could defend, so that they could basically try to outlaw abortion within their state. They were purposely doing this because they knew it would be in contradiction to Roe V. Wade. And so their goal was to pass this law, put it into effect and people will challenge it and then their hope was that it would appeal up to the supreme court and then that would prompt a review of Roe V. Wade Page 17 �was their goal basically by trying to pass this amendment in Mississippi. And so I had been really hoping that that would succeed, it did not succeed. Not for reasons because people thought that unborn human beings should not be valuable, it was because, from what I understand, because people were afraid of how it would affect issues of in vitro fertilization, how it would affect some forms of birth control , because some forms of birth control do have the intention of not allowing an embryo to implant in the womb, which would result in the death of a human being. Ya know, that’s a fact. Whether or not the human being is valuable gets back to the issue of, well, personhood. And so that was the concerns that I heard cited most among the people who were against that Mississippi amendment. That could have been a very historical event. My understanding is that they are going to try again, possibly word the amendment differently so that those concerns won’t apply but that would still have the same effect basically. I feel like there was something else recently... Oh, I know Michigan recently outlawed partial birth abortions, which I think is a very good thing. It’s not enough, but it’s a very good thing. Saidah: Sorry to interrupt. What’s partial abortion? RJ: Partial birth abortion is, I honestly can’t believe anybody thinks this is ok, partial birth abortion is treading the line of what is legal and what is not legal. Legally, a human is born when the head is removed from it’s mother’s body. The head, specifically. Ok, so partial birth abortion is a late term abortion, meaning that it’s done like eight. nine, seven weeks into the pregnancy. And they induce labor, remove the child from the womb, they remove the legs, the torso, the arms, everything except for the head. So they literally hold the baby so that only it’s head is still inside it’s mother and then they’ll take scissors and put it into the child’s neck and pierce it and then put a suction into that incision and literally suck out it’s brain. To kill it. Because it’s not legally protected until the head is removed. So they remove everything except for the head and then they kill it. This happens. In our country. Saidah: Seems more gruesome than just regular abortion. RJ: Yes. And it was legal in the state of Michigan up until a couple weeks ago. It’s legal but there has to be certain circumstances of risk of health to the mother, not necessarily certain death but just risks to their health. And then when they define health, they use the United Nations definition of health which includes like economy and proper food and things like that. So it’s not necessarily a risk to their life, it’s a risk to their health. So like if I have this child i’ll have to spend money on it so I won’t be able to buy proper nutrition, ya know, I won’t be able to buy food that is as nutritious as the food that I have right now so therefore having this child is a risk to my health. So I could decide if I were a women and eight months pregnant that I, and there are doctors who are so pro choice that they’ll say ok, just come up with any reason and I’ll do this for you, ‘cause I don’t really think that there should be any rules against this so just come up with some excuse and I’ll be ok with it. And there are doctors who will preform this. There Page 18 �have been many documented cases, the most recent one was in Philadelphia, with an abortion doctor who , sometimes this partial birth abortion procedure goes wrong where the baby might be too slippery or the head is too small and so they’re trying to remove it up to the head but then it all comes out. And so now, legally, it’s a person. Now it’s protected but they wanted to kill it so nobody’s watching so they’ll just kill it anyway, after it’s been born and nobody knows the difference. And so there’s been documented cases of people getting caught doing this and they get charged with murder. Where as if they did it thirty seconds earlier with the head still inside the mother, then it’s ok. This is still legal in most places in the United States. There’s been push back, they tried to ban it nationally and they actually got it passed I believe, during Bill Clinton’s turn as president but he vetoed it I think. I don’t, i’m not sure if that’s correct, that’s what I think happened. So that’s partial birth abortion, it’s now banned in Michigan, thank god. And the thing about this is, the most common excuse for doing that basically is that usually when you’re delivering you want to remove the head first because the head is usually the largest and so if it doesn’t fit basically there’s not an immediate, urgent problem, you can do other things to try to get it to fit. So if you, but it can cause problems for the mother, it can be a risk. And so they’ll say ya know, well the head might be a little too big so this might be a risk, and so then that’s an excuse to do this. Saidah: Alright. Are there any articles, books, films or speeches that made your pro life stance even stronger? RJ: There’s one book that I read recently, by my mentor who I mentioned earlier, his book, he’s an author, called the case for life. Which basically kind of outlines that same apologetic thing that I was talking about earlier like the size of the home environment, degree of dependency type thing. He didn’t coin that, that’s not his, he cites it for who came up with that way of presenting the argument. That book was very good. It also touched on embryonic stem cell research because embryonic stem cell research kills a human being in the embryo stage of development. And that same book kind of addresses, preemptively addresses a lot of pro choice arguments. I mean, that’s the best way to prepare for trying to persuade somebody is to think about your case, think about how people might object to that and then be prepared to address their objections. You gotta be able to play both sides in order, I think, to fully understand an issue. And then that book’s called The case for life. Read that one recently, really liked that one. That’s probably the only book I think I’ve ever read that is specifically about pro life issues. Saidah: Ok. So what is your stance on pro life and rape victims? RJ: In cases of rape, I do not, it does not change what an abortion is. If who I’m talking to accepts, if my roommate is correct that an unborn human being is of the same value and worth as a born human being then it’s basically like saying the mother was abused in this terrible way Page 19 �and therefore we’re going to kill a third party person in order to relieve her suffering. I don’t think that’s ok. People, ya know, will put it as it’s killing the child for the mistakes of the father. I think that is a true explanation of what you’re doing, I think, if you’re actually trying to explain that to somebody you need to go a little bit more in depth than that. I mean, it’s obviously a terrible situation but it still doesn’t make killing a human being ok. There are very rare cases where killing a human being is ok. I’m not saying that it’s completely impossible. Sometimes it is the lesser of two evils. But I don’t think thats proper justification for killing a human being. Obviously those women need and deserve all of our support, ya know I’m not going to say tough luck, ya know that’s obviously not the response that I give. It’s a gracious no I still don’t think it’s ok, I want to help you type of response. Saidah: And students for life would throw out the option of adoption and things of that nature as well correct? RJ: Yeah, that’s always, I guess I probably should have stated that because that’s always just and assumption in my mind that adoption is always an option. Personally, I’ve been affected by the option of adoption (chuckles) heh, that rhymes, I have a little two year old cousin who was recently adopted into our family. He’s going to be the ring bearer in my wedding next summer. I love him and adoption really is beautiful. So it’s, if you were raped and conceived, it doesn’t mean that you’re being condemned to being responsible for another human being for the rest of your life, ya know, like you would be raising a child. There’s that option to allow another couple who wants them to adopt them. And there are enough couples who want to adopt. There are often, like in the debates I’ve been in, they often cite like there are so many children here who don’t have adopting parents yet. But the main reason for that is adopting parents generally want infants and newborns , where as the children who are in foster care and not being adopted are generally more like five, six, seven, teenagers and those, at those ages there are not usually enough parents who want to adopt teenagers. But I mean for newborn infants there are many parents who want to adopt. Saidah: Alright. How do you feel about pro life when it relates to the mother’s health, whether it’s a rape victim or someone who is actively pursuing pregnancy? RJ: So you’re saying like with risk to the mother’s life right? Ok. So this is where we kinda get more into the, I was talking about earlier, sometimes there could be reasons to take the life of a human being. This kinda gets into the stage where people start to think well maybe it is. So and what, this is more kinda, my understands of the catholic church’s position on abortion, these issues. I think most people agree with them, it’s what I believe makes a lot of sense and is just. Ok so lets say that there’s a pregnancy that is developing complications that is, there is some risk of the mother dying because of it. Alright, so lets say that to the best of our medical knowledge we can say that this pregnancy has a lets say one third chance of taking the Page 20 �mother’s life. Alright, so if the pregnancy were to take the mother’s life it would then take the life of the unborn child because the child can’t survive without the mother. Right. So both the mother and the child have a one third chance of dying in this case. So we can ethically preform a procedure to try to remove the complications as long as the purpose isn’t to just directly kill the unborn human being. The solution can’t be to kill this person to save that person. We can do a procedure that has a chance of helping both of the human beings survive and so if there’s a one third chance you can preform a procedure to try and help the mother that has like up to a one third chance of resulting in the death of the unborn human being because the unborn human being already is at a one third chance of dying. And so any procedure that has the potential of helping it that still has that one third chance of resulting, ya know, might accidentally kill the unborn child hasn’t put the unborn child at any greater injustice, it’s had a, it’s been an effort to try to help both human beings survive. Saidah: Would an example of that be the new medical advances, for example in utero surgery and things of that nature? RJ: Mmmhmm. I guess I kinda jumped right off to the complicated answer. I think the simple answer is I think every effort should be made to save the mother and every effort made to save the child. I believe they are of equal intrinsic value. Because none of the differences between them change how much they’re worth. So they both, so there’s two lives here that we’re trying to save, we should do everything we can to save both of them. And so there’s a difference here between having a risk to the mother’s life and a certainty of taking the mother’s life. If there’s a certainty that the pregnancy is going to end the mother’s life, which is really more kind of a hypothetical situation, then there’s also a certainty that the unborn child is going to die as well. And so if you do a procedure that has almost a certainty of killing the unborn child but that isn’t the goal of it, like if there’s just a minute chance that the procedure may save both lives, even if there’s like a 99.9% chance that it’s going to kill the unborn human being, there’s still that .1% chance that you’re aiming for in doing this, then it would be moral to do that. Basically, it’s as long as the intention isn’t to actively kill the unborn human being then it’s an ethical procedure. Saidah: Ok. And so why do you think abortion is still legal when media and movies are always advocating having the child? Do you think the media will help the pro life cause? RJ: I think that the media does not help the pro life cause overall. Specifically like in the news media and things like that. This kinda goes for all issues that are deemed liberal. I think it’s pretty obvious that most of the media is liberally biased. That’s debatable though. Like in T.V. shows and things like that, your right in that T.V. series that have had pregnancies worked into the plot, they’ve realized that ending the pregnancy with abortion isn’t good for ratings. People don’t like that. The reason I think abortion is still legal is because, well there’s a couple different things. I think one of them, which is a kinda even bigger issue of why things are the way they Page 21 �are is a belief in subjective morality and that people, there’s this pretty dominant belief amongst like the youth in particular that there’s really no such thing as right and wrong, and that it’s up to each individual to determine what’s right and wrong. I would love to have a conversation with somebody about that by itself. That’s another one of those issues I was talking about earlier, where my focus on pro life apologetics has branched out into these other issues and this belief of subjective morality. I really like to have that conversation with people and the apologetics of that and whether or not that really is true. And this is seen in things like you shouldn’t force your beliefs on other people, is something I hear people often say. I think that’s a contradictory statement. I could go into a long schpeel about why that’s a contradictory statement but that’s a very dominant belief and so the problem here is even people who believe abortion is wrong think that it should be a personal issue to everybody. Ya know. I think that’s one of the big reasons people who, and another one of the reasons is because there’s really kind of a spectrum of where peoples believes fall. There’s people who are extremely pro choice and say all nine months of pregnancy shouldn’t have to have any reasons, you can just have an abortion for whatever you want. Versus the very pro life end which says no. You should never have an abortion, it’s never ok. And one of the problems is I think most people, I feel safe saying that most people believe that abortion out of convenience is not ok. Alright. And the fact is that most abortions are out of convenience. Convenience being like social, economical reasons. Well, like, ya know I could support this child but I’d be very poor if I did so I’d rather kill it would be a social economical reason. So most people agree that abortion out of convenience is wrong but they still hold onto well, in cases of incest, rape and threats to the mother’s life, then it’s still ok, is what, I think there’s a pretty good chunk of the American population holds that type of position. And the thing is, is that if you have that type of position you are pro life on 99% of pregnancy cases. Alright. But since they still hold onto those few exceptions they consider themselves pro choice and then therefore when it comes to like a vote or politically, they agree that we should have the choice to have an abortion. So I think one of the problems is that on this big long spectrum, people that are even on the pro life end consider, they call themselves pro choice. I think that’s one of the problems. So that, subjective morality, media bias, I’d probably say those are the three main reasons. Saidah: Ok. Does the pro life movement support or advocate abstinence? RJ: No. We don’t really take a position on abstinence versus... I don’t know, what’s contrary abstinence? Promiscuity? Promiscuity? (all chuckle) We don’t take a stance on that. I think that if we were all to come to the conclusion that having sex results in a new human being we would all take it a lot more seriously. I think it, I think that being pro choice encourages the nonabstinence only lifestyle. Because I mean if reproducing doesn’t really create another human being and you can just get rid of it if you want, well then there’s not much responsibility involved in it. Right, then the only issue becomes not getting a disease. Which I guess if you Page 22 �really, i’m not speaking from experience, but I mean I guess if you were really careful you could avoid that pretty well and so it kinda becomes more of a thing for pleasure. I don’t think it’s just a thing for pleasure. Personally I would encourage abstinence before marriage but i’m not going to argue for that as strongly as I will for the pro life cause because I believe that abortion takes the life of another human being, where as I think that if you have sex outside of marriage without the abortion part related to it, I really just think you’re kind of hurting yourself. I think in the end you’d be happier if you didn’t do that. I mean, you’re only hurting yourself so I’ll defend your right to choose to do that, where as I will NOT defend your right to choose to take the life of another human being. Saidah: Ok. So the pro life movement’s more of a let me help you with the decision you’re faced with right now, not a preventative type of measure. RJ: There are some pro life groups who probably do purposely encompass the more preventative stuff, but we don’t officially take a stand on that. Saidah: Well thank you very much R.J.. We very much appreciate it. RJ: You’re welcome. I enjoyed it. Saidah: Yes, thank you. Are there any other, you know, last minute comments you want to give us? RJ: No, nothing. (chuckles) No, not really into this. Saidah: Well thank you R.J.! END OF INTERVIEW Page 23 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/403d33c69c30ae5983a093494c6d0924.mp3 7f7a1eb95aedae53aec09044a8258be1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_McVeigh_Raymond Title A name given to the resource Raymond McVeigh audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McVeigh, Raymond Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Miller, Saidah Biggs, Lauren Description An account of the resource Raymond McVeigh discusses his involvement with the Pro-Life movement as a Catholic. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-11-29 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f28159584cc73be7011c640549a7ebcc.pdf f66a31314adabbfe77a21d198578a238 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Bryce Kyle Interviewers: Melanie Shell-Weiss Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/11/2011 Runtime: 00:06:26 Biography and Description Bryce Kyle sings a song entitled “The Mankind of Struggle.” He is accompanied by guitar. Transcript 1910 to 1930 Two million black men moved to the city Red yellow black and white, that there’s a difference is histories great plight Ida Mae Brandon’s great fight, which man to pick, man their all alright Robert Joseph Pershing, served his country, yeah alright -ChorusJust look around and see, your no different then me The fear in your eyes yeah, it’s no different than mine I feel your pain love yeah come closer and see Stop standing idle love, yeah that’s no good to me The orchard fields boxed up all nice and tight, they too will go on the great flight Page 1 �Give me a hog and give me some land sir, I’d ask for dignity but looks like you got none to spare Simmons girl tell me what do you see, the price for freedom, I hear it’s a high fee Butler girl damn you have quite the voice, take it to Washington, let them hear you rejoice -ChorusJust look around and see, your no different then me The fear in your eyes yeah, it’s no different than mine I feel your pain love yeah come closer and see Stop standing idle love, yeah that’s no good to me A man with a dream speaks out into the crowd, shots fired I suppose he was to proud They know what to do when we get out of place, there’s no room for us in their idea of grace Malcolm X I hear you my good sir, scream loudly and you might get some to care Speak boldly and then you’ll see, they’ll take a shotgun to end your cry and plea -ChorusJust look around and see, your no different then me The fear in your eyes yeah, it’s no different than mine I feel your pain love yeah come closer and see Stop standing idle love, yeah that’s no good to me Page 2 �LORD you are my shepherd and you lead me right Restoreth my soul LORD in you I take flight Give me your righteousness O’ I know you care I pray your equity sets us in all that’s fair Restore the innocent God I know your love Let your power come, Lord Jesus I need you now Isa 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. END OF INTERVIEW Page 3 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6cc09ad654c6086a5016f34007113070.mp3 d30bda494e61e0258988cee8ec15ecea Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Kyle_Bryce Title A name given to the resource Mankind of Struggle, The Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Bryce Kyle Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Melanie Shell-Weiss Description An account of the resource Bryce Kyle sings a song entitled "The Mankind of Struggle." He is accompanied by guitar. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-11 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c3759c082fb95b408f14ad4377331109.pdf b8a72c2bf8092f2d6e9d67d7b58432a9 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Jordan Serla Interviewers: Julie Doescher, DeVonte Jones and Krysten Velderman Supervising Faculty: Liberal Arts Department Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/15/2011 Runtime: 01:05:44 Biography and Description Jordan Serla discusses growing up gay in a small town. Transcript Julie: How old are you? Jordan: I’m 18 Julie: And, what is your gender? Jordan: Uhm… male (laughs loudly). Julie: What is your sexual orientation? Jordan: I’m gay (laughs). Julie: If you could describe yourself, uhm, how would you like, identify yourself? Using anything you can think of by using 3 or 4 words. Jordan: Definitely diva, uh, I can be a bitch (everyone laughs). Uhm, I’m a riot. I’ve never had someone hang out with me that didn’t want to hang out with me afterwards (laughs). Uh, you can ask Rachel I’m a riot (laughs). And, I’m crazy. Julie:(laughs) Okay. (all laugh). Julie: Tell me a little about your childhood, what it was like growing up. Jordan: Uhm, I grew up like, like, if you saw me now, you would not even dare to think that I grew up the way that I did. Uhm, I grew up in, well I started out in Saginaw Township, which was a nice little town, I mean if you get to the wrong side of Saginaw it’s a little bit iffy there, but (laughs) I grew up in the Township area, I went to school there blah, blah, blah. Had an awesome childhood in, for the most part, but I mean uhm, and then I moved to Decatur, do you want all of the childhood details? (laughs) Page 1 �Julie: Yeah, definitely! Jordan: Okay (laughs). Because uhm, I mean, when I was little I, in probably 2nd grade, I filed child abuse on my dad, my step dad because he was very, very like, aggressive. Julie: It was your step dad? Jordan: Yeah Julie: Okay Jordan: Like, I mean there were lots of times, where he would just like. I remember one time I left my coat on the floor downstairs, and he just picked me up and whipped me down the stairs and I smacked my head on the back, on the table that was down there. Julie: Oh my gosh. Jordan: Yeah, it was bad. Like, any time he came around me, like one time he chased me down the stairs and picked me up, and I just pissed my pants because I was so scared (he laughs). Julie: All gasp, oh my gosh. Jordan: I was pissed cause I loved those jeans (laughs) (Everyone laughs loudly.) Jordan: But uhm. Julie: And was your mom and real dad present or? Jordan: Uhm, my mom and real dad separated when I was one. So, my step dad came into my life when I was 3, married my mom when I was 5, uhm, around 6 is when he started getting like, aggressive, and violent towards me and my brother. And uhm, like uh, it was just… I knew it was wrong and my brother just like, never did anything about it. Like, any time child protective services would try to help, he would deny it and then like, my mom would go in and tell them I was crazy. (laughs) Julie: Is your brother older or younger? Jordan: Yeah, he’s 21. Julie: Okay Jordan: Yup Julie: But, uh. Julie: So your mom didn’t do anything or? Jordan: Nope, she denies it to this day. Julie: And your dad, does he know anything? Page 2 �Jordan: Yep, yep he knew about a lot of it, he tried to do what he could, but uhm, I mean when you’re, he’s a cop, so you can’t really do anything. Julie: Yeah.. okay. Jordan: And uhm, so that’s how that went. Uhm, it continued for a long time until I started getting older and he started calming down. Stopped doing it as much, like, stopped all that. Uhm, like, it happened a few times when I was in, like 7th and 8th grade. That kind of stuff, that was after we moved to Decatur. Julie: Okay Jordan: I went from like, a normal suburb life to like, hick town in the country (groans) (All laugh quietly) (He laughs.) (We all laugh.) Jordan: Uhm, that was kind of an interesting place. It just, like I think that’s the place that made me strong. Uhm, Julie: And why is that? Jordan: Uhm, just because like, being the way I was, like I mean, I wasn’t open. But, I still, you could kinda tell. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like, I wore fashionable clothes, and, like, my hair was always done up and stuff like that, you could tell but I still reached my way to the top of the popularity pyramid at a hick town. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like, high school. Like, if I can do that, then what can’t I do. Julie: Is your, do you talk to your step dad? Jordan: Uhm, Julie: Like, right now or? Jordan: Uhm, if I go over there I’ll say high and that’s it. I don’t talk to him unless I need him. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: For various cop stuff, (laughs) Julie: And, would you say that your family is close? Or your you know, with your brother, you only have one brother? Page 3 �Jordan: I have 6 siblings. Julie: Oh wow. Okay Jordan: Eh, yeah. Jordan: And the thing is, my dad, uhm, he had my older sister. She’s 26. She’s heavily into meth (laughs). Julie: Okay. Jordan: Everyone’s got their problems. (Everyone laughs). Jordan: Uhm, she, she does, yeah we don’t really talk to her right now, because of all that, but yeah, uhm. And then I have two half brothers from there I have a step brother that’s from my dad’s new wife, uhm, and then I have two little sisters that my mom and step dad had, uhm, like, when I was 7. My little sister was born when I was 7, yeah. And then the other one when I was 10. Julie: Okay. And then are you close with them, or Jordan: Not really. Julie: Okay Jordan: I mean I was really close to my sister, she was my idol, and like, growing up it was like Shawna… she was there. She was the coolest sister ever, but now it’s like… Julie: Oh. The one that Jordan: Yeah… that one. Uhm, yeah now it’s like, I can’t believe what you turned into because you had so much potential. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: And that kind of thing, but uhm, my brother is the one that I’m closest with. Julie: Okay Jordan: Uhm, he’s actually, like, cause we grew up every day together. Like, he was my only, he’s my only full blood brother. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like all my other siblings are half siblings, and uhm, well… yeah so that’s the ones I’m close with. As far as my other family goes, I’m not really a family person. I’ve always felt closer with my friends than I ever have with my family. Uhm, my mom even though all the stuff with my childhood I try to move on with it because, when no one else was around, me and my mom had a bond that was like no other. Page 4 �Like, we just get each other we have the same sense of humor, like, just do the same things. Like, both hard core bitches (all laugh). Julie: And your dad? Jordan: Uhm, my dad. I got a pretty good relationship with my dad. Uhm, I just saw him a couple of days ago. Like I mean, I’ve been around my dad, when I was… uhm sophomore year, my whole life, ever since, probably like 8th grade I’ve gone down to Saint Joe, and, uhm, stayed with my aunt and uncle, like all summer, and like the weekends and stuff like that. Like the weekends after I got my car and I could drive down there. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: But, I would go and stay the whole summers, and they gave me a job so I could make money, uhm, they put me in a good environment, uhm around kids where I could learn and like, they just taught me a bunch of stuff that, you know, like your parents, my parents didn’t give a shit enough to tell me, and my dad couldn’t be there for me, so, Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Uhm, there was that. So that’s how I ended up in Saint Joe. Uhm, how I moved, I moved junior year to Plainwell, and that was pretty much the breaking point of that was going to Saint Joe and seeing my uncle and living with them for the summers and weekends was like what kept me going in life. It was just, it kept me motivated. And uhm, let me know what I wanted in life. And, uhm, my step dad uhm, didn’t like that, and we were seeing a therapist, a family therapist at the time. Because… they thought I was crazy (laughs nervously). But, uhm, and then the therapist said that he needs to spend more time with his family, and that’s the last thing I wanted to because I hated them. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: And, so, I told my dad that they weren’t going to let me go over to my aunt’s house anymore, and, he’s like, well that’s it and he told my step mom, and my step mom’s like okay, you can move in with us next year. Start school over here, and uhm, that’s what I did. I moved to Plainwell, bigger school. More opportunities, loved it. Graduated early, I haven’t been in school (gasps) for like 9 months now, (laughs). (All laugh) Jordan: It’s been awesome. Julie: Uh-huh. Jordan: I start school in December though, but it’s a school that I actually like. Julie: Okay. And, uhm, what would you say your hobbies are, what do you like to do? Jordan: I like to draw (quietly laughs) Looks around because there are paintings up on his walls of his artwork. Page 5 �(All quietly laugh). Jordan: I like to paint. Julie: Uh-huh (laughs) Obviously. Jordan: I love to shop, and I love to spend money. (All laugh again). Julie: that be something… painting… that be something that maybe would be a possible career choice? Jordan: Uhm, the arts is a career that I’m going into. Julie: Okay Jordan: If, like, you look at the artistic point of view, I’m going into cosmetology. Julie: Okay. Jordan: Uhm, my dad’s best friends daughter is a runway model out in L.A. Julie: Wow. Jordan: So, as soon as I finish school, I’m gonna go to Chicago next year, get some experience, like learn how to do what I need to do, and then I’m goin straight out to L.A. and work my way to the top.. A-List, here I come! Julie: (All laugh) Awesome, so what would you want to do as your career, like, be a hair stylist in L.A.? Jordan: Yeah, for celebrities. I’m gonna be a platform artist I never wanna work in a salon, after I get my experience because I’ve worked in a salon as a receptionist and I’ve seen how evil those bitches are. And I do not want to live a life where I have to go to that every day, and deal with that, and just, the petty, stupidity. So I’m gonna be a platform artist, and do my own stuff. I’m gonna do hair shows, celebrities, that kind of thing. Runways, all that stuff. Julie: Okay, awesome. Jordan: That’s the stuff that I like. I don’t want to be tied down (half laughs). Julie: Uhm, so you said that, uhm you were really close with a lot of your friends, as oppose to family, uhm, so what kind of people did you hang out with? Has it changed from who you hang out with now in high school, or? Jordan: Uhm, I’ve always been really good at finding like, legit friends. Julie: Mhm-hm. Page 6 �Jordan: Like, uhm, I’ve had the same, I’ve always like, because I am gay, I’ve always needed a guy best friend and a girl best friend. My guy best friend I found when I was in 6th grade. We’re still friends to this day, like, talk to him all the time. Julie: Wow Jordan: Uhm… so, it’s been a long time (laughs) Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: So, but I’ve always switched girl best friends because I’ve never found the right fit. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: And, but when I do pick em, I pick them really good. Like, all my best friends that I have had, I still talk to em. Like, I still talk to them and I’m still close with them it’s just there not.. there. Right now I’ve I’ve found the one. (All laugh). Jordan: Like, it’s Tara (laughs). She’s my best friend. Like I could talk to that girl about anything, so comfortable around her. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like, we do the most stupid shit ever (all laugh). We just sit there and laugh. (Laugh again). Jordan: Uhm, so like as far as friends go, like, I mean, the kind of friends that I hang out, have all varied, uhm, I’ve figured out that, although I listen to pop music, and I love country, and like, all that bubbly like, like (laughs) dancin music, uhm.. I love all that. And all, my two closest friends are all like into die hard death metal screamo, like nasty like I feel like Satan’s gonna come out of my radio (all laugh again). Uhm, so there like, there kinda rocker-ish. Julie: Uh-huh. Jordan: Yeah. Julie: So they’re different from you? Jordan: Yeah. Julie: You like that? Jordan: Yeah, they’re like opposite of me. Uhm. Like I don’t get how I can become such good friends with people like that. But, it just happens (laughs). Julie: Yeah Page 7 �Jordan: Love it Julie: Uhm, are you religious? Jordan: Uhm, I’m not really religious. Julie: Okay, have you ever been or are your parents? Jordan: Parents, definitely. My mom always told me that gayness was devil spirits in your brain possessing you. Which now, just sounds crazy to me. Julie: Uh-huh. Jordan: Uhm, I don’t believe in the Bible. I believe that uhm, if you look it up; the opposite of godly is religion. And uhm, so I’ve just I kind of believe what I believe. I believe that there’s a greater thing up there. Cause, like I mean, when I’ve been in shitty situations I pray, and, everything gets resolved so, it makes me feel like there’s something up there, and just the thought of it makes me feel more comfortable. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Knowing that, there is something. But as far as like, the Bible goes, and sinning. I don’t believe in sinning, that’s crazy. How can, how could you just be put on this earth, and, then given, how is a man supposed to die for your sins and, like, now like, you can sin and be forgiven? Like, I don’t believe there are sins, I believe that there is choices that you make, and there’s right and wrong choices, of course, but as far as sins go, and there’s something wrong, and like, God’s just frowning down on you for doing that, like, that’s just crazy. (Laughs). I just don’t believe in that, and if you do, that’s fine. But, that’s just not something I believe in. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like, I mean, I believe Jesus is there. I believe God ‘s there, but, as far as like, God doesn’t like that, that you did that, like, I don’t like that. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: I mean I do believe in karma, what goes around comes around. And, I mean I’ve definitely had my fair share of bad karma, and I’ve had my fair share of good karma (a horn beeping goes off from his cell phone) and I’m at that point in my life where I realize, doing stupid things like stealing from people, like that (points to a gnome he stole) brings bad karma. Like, I mean, that’s not something I want in my life, and you know, I’ve gotten a couple doses of good karma in my life and I like it too much to give it up (we laugh) (he laughs), so ha. Julie: And when your mom did tell you that uhm, she didn’t, you know, uh, did you believe that at the time? Were you young? Or, like does she still think that, tell you that? Or has she changed? Jordan: (Laughs) Uhm, she won’t tell me that now because I’m pretty sure she has an idea (we laugh). She’s always asking my brother, and my brother’s like “Uh I don’t know ha ha” Page 8 �(We laugh). Jordan: He’s like, it’s not my decision to tell her. Julie: Uh-huh. Jordan: Cause it’s not, but uhm. (Laughs). Well, uhm… like I mean it was always in the back of my mind growing up. Like, just like, uhm. I was actually home schooled for two years. I missed that part in my schooling debate that I was telling you about. (All laugh). Jordan: Uhm, 7th and 8th grade I was home schooled which I look back, and am so thankful I was because that’s like your awkward stage where you have time to grow, and I was like, the, I was the, really big like loser, like dirty kid, like uhm. I just, like, the bad kid that’s always gettin into trouble at school. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: And, like, 5th and 6th grade, and then 7th and 8th grade I had time to grow and like find myself without all these other kids around me judging me all the time, ya know, that kind of thing, I got a chance to kind of like, figure it out, and what I was doing, and like, stuff like that, so. When I went back to high school my freshman year, I was, uhm, it was like my year of adjustment like getting back into everything, and ya know, I was, I made a lot of other friends, and like, some of the people I grew up in 5th and 6th grade like, like, they were a lot different towards me now, and somehow I worked my way up from the chain, and everybody loved me now. Like I can still go back, like I can go to a football game, and they’ll all be there. And I’ll walk through, and they’ll be like AHHHH, (laughs), like they’ll still be all like crazy towards me. Julie: (All laugh). That’s awesome. Jordan: Like they’ll still be all crazy towards me. Julie: Uhm, when did you first know, was there a point? Jordan: I’ve always known. Julie: Okay. Jordan: Always. Julie: So like, really young? Jordan: Yeah. Julie: And what, why happened? Was there any significant moment, or no? Jordan: Uhm, I don’t know you know you can tell that I’m really girly. Julie: Mhm-hm. Page 9 �Jordan: Like, I’ve just always been that way. Like when I was little, I used to dress up like a girl. Like I mean I know that’s really weird, but yeah I totally did. And all the time so. My whole family just thought it was weird, but they thought maybe we just have a weird kid. Like, so I’ve always known. Uhm, I don’t know I remember watching tv and like, stuff was getting more sexual and there were guys on the tv that were shirtless and I was like, damnn (laughs). (All laugh loudly). Jordan: So, like I mean I just kind of, like girls, like when you, when you start liking boys you don’t like boys when you’re little, you know, you just don’t. But I remember being little and like being in love with Nick Carter from Backstreet Boys. (All laugh). Julie: Uhm, so, do…have you told your, have you, you’ve told your parents? Or no? Or do they just have some kind of clue? Have you told your brothers and sisters? Jordan: My mom is on to me (laughs). My brother, he, I have like, when I was 15, well since I was 15 I’ve had like an iPod Touch, and I always have these gay apps where I was able to talk to people, and stuff like that, so one time, and I always kept my iPod locked, and then one time I let my brother into it, and he found it, and like with my friend Holly, who lives with me right now, (laughs), so, well she doesn’t live with me right now but she lives like over there in the same apartment complex, but, uhm, but, uhm… oh snap what was I saying. I hate that I get sidetracked, stoner mind. Julie: About Holly, and… Jordan: Oh, well they found that, and like two years went by. And never, never said anything to my brother, even though I knew he knew, because Holly told me of course, and uhm like, him and Holly dated for a while, and like had a little thing, but never really dated, but that’s how I know her and now we’re like tight. She comes over here every night after work and we have girl talk. (All laugh). Jordan: Like, she’ll come over here tonight. Uhm, but… my brother and me, I don’t even remember exactly how it went down. I think he said something and I was just like whatever, because my junior year of high school, I moved to a new school. The way I looked at it is, like Decatur, I already ran that school. Like I already know what it’s like to be the most popular kid in school. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: And like, I knew what it was like to be that, you know when I moved to Plainwell, I just wanted real friends. You know? Like, I didn’t, I didn’t want all the showboaty every time I walked down the hallway. Like, I didn’t care about that anymore. I just wanted to have a good high school experience for the time that was left there. Julie: Mhm-hm. Page 10 �Jordan: Uhm, so when I got there, I didn’t like seek anything out. I still became pretty popular there just on my own, but I didn’t like, I didn’t like go to all the parties that they went to or stuff like that. Uhm, I didn’t like go to the football games or anything, I just hung out with my friends. And like, I had a really close group of friends. Like, one of my closest friends that I used to sit with at lunch every day, every time like, we had trimesters, and we’d always switch lunches and stuff like that, and somehow he always ended up in my lunch, but Drake Black goes to uhm GVSU, and we went to high school together. Uhm, but yeah, he was one of my close friends. I just had this close circle, like, if we hung out after school we’d all hang out, like a bunch of stoners. (All laugh). Jordan: But, like we’d just hang out and do our thing, and uhm, but it was a lot of fun. I found a lot more enjoyment with life by just enjoying it, instead of seeking it out and throughout my high school years when I was living with my mom I was so angry all the time, like, I was such a bitch. That’s how I got to popular, because there were like these girls that would like, think they were all that, and I would just go up and say it to their face, you’re fat and you’re nasty and you’re a piece of shit get the heck out of here. Ya know, I’d just like, I would just give it to them and everyone loved that. Like, they loved having that person who would just say it to their face because no one else would. Ya know, you’d be like “Oh my god I hate that girl, she’s so stupid. I wish someone would just go up and tell her”, and I would be like, I’ll do it. (Everyone laughs). Jordan: It was just all my anger, and I’ve always been ruthless like that. (Laughter again). Julie: And did your friends, and your friends knew. Did you ever talk to them about it? Or they just knew? Jordan: Uhm, my friends at Decatur didn’t know. Julie: Okay. Jordan: Like, I mean I’m sure they had their suspicions. Julie: And you never talked about it? Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Now they know. I mean, if you saw the outfit that I showed up in for graduation there, like I went back and watched all my friends walk, of course. Uhm, but if you saw what I wore, it was pretty obvious. And like, I just, once I moved to Plainwell I stopped caring what people thought, and so I just kinda like, if people asked if I was gay I would be like, yeah (laughs) I am. Julie: But, before uhm, you moved there, you said you would say no? Or would you deny it? Jordan: Yeah, I would totally deny it. Page 11 �Julie: Uh-huh. Jordan: I wasn’t comfortable there. And plus it was like a total hick town, but, the thing is like I’ve gone back totally openly gay, and like, when I wear shorts, I wear short shorts. Like, ya know and like, in the summer, I’m totally dressed like a slut, but. (Everyone laughs). Jordan: Like I went back there, and like, they all still like, treat me the same. Which just goes to show ya, like the people that lived there. They were good people. Julie: Yeah, definitely. Julie: Uhm, so, who was the hardest person to tell in your life, or, Jordan: Is going to be? Julie: Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Jordan: Uhm, probably my dad because he is so oblivious. Julie: Really? Jordan: Yes, like. I, I’m the biggest girl in the world. He likes to hunt, and like do all this stuff. Like don’t get me wrong, I can shoot a gun like no other. I was down, I went shooting down with Greg at the shooting range, like when you shoot the clay pigeons, well, I went down there and there’s just like all these manly men with their guns and I’m like walkin up in some tight ass jeans with Ugg boots and my hair and a scarf. And like, they’re just looking at me like, what the fuck is this kid doing here? (Laughter) Jordan: I get out there with my gun, just, bam bam bam! (Laughter again) Jordan: And they’re just like, (mouth open). Cause I shot better than like most of them. Like my dad’s always taken me shooting and stuff like that. He tried to get me into hunting but, my first time deer hunting I swear to God I just sat there, I was just like (crosses his legs and looks up in the air and sighs many times). Jordan: (All laugh). Really? I’m goin back, I’m gonna eat (he laughs). Sat out there for maybe an hour (we laugh). And then I was like, this is stupid. Julie: But you don’t think that your dad knows? Jordan: Umm, like, my, my step mom has like said things to my siblings, and my siblings have said things to me about her saying things to them about it, and like, my dad is just so oblivious to it. And it’s like so weird, like because, any time he wants to do something. Like, he likes to garden and I’m like ew dad, no. I don’t like dirt; it gets underneath my fingernails (we laugh). It dries out my hands, and it’s disgusting! Page 12 �(All laugh again). Jordan: And, uh, it’s just so bad because he’s seriously like, sooo straight. It’s ridiculous. Like my dad’s a whore. Well, like not right now but he was. (Laughter). He’s just like, pussy pussy pussy. And he’s always talking about it still, still to this day. And I’m just like, ew. (All laugh again loudly). Julie: Uhm, who would be the easiest person to tell and why? Jordan: Like, that I haven’t already told? Julie: Yeah. Julie: Or who was the easiest person, that you just knew from the minute that you were gonna tell them, it was gonna be okay? Jordan: The easiest person to tell was probably my best friend in Plainwell High School. Her name was Kelly. Have you met Kelly? (Looks over at his friend). Ginger, long hair. Red hair, she’s like the prettiest ginger you’ll ever see, because a pretty one doesn’t come around that often. Uhm, but yeah, she’s probably the easiest just because like, as I said, when I moved to Plainwell I just didn’t care anymore. Like I just wanted to be liked for me. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like.. Julie: And what happened, how did she react? Jordan: She loved it. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like, have you ever met a girl who doesn’t want a girl best friend? Julie: (Everyone shakes head, agrees) I know, what? (Everyone laughs) Jordan: Like I.. Julie: So true. Jordan: Like, when I was in high school I’d get all these girls that would like, wanted to go shopping with me, blah blah blah, and stuff like that, and to me, like, that’s not what makes a friend. Like my best friend Kelly, like that, we were best friends through high school, we were still just talking today, she texted me but I ignored it today because I was out, but, uhm, like we still talk all the time that’s where I got the cat from. And like, we’ve been shopping together once. And it didn’t happen until two years after we were best friends. (All laugh). Page 13 �Jordan: Like, that just goes to show you all these girls come up and go, let’s go shopping blah blah blah, it’s just like, I’m lookin for real friends, not these girls that just want me to go shopping with them just because they think I have good taste. Like, you can just tell, everyone wants a best gay friend. Julie: Okay, uhm, are you involved in anything like, community outreach, or something like that? Or were you in high school? Jordan: Uhm, I did not do anything in high school. Extra curricular was not my thing. I hated high school with a passion that burned like the sun. I loved friends, I loved going in there every day like and, seriously throughout entire high school I didn’t care where I was, never wore sweatpants to school. Always in jeans, always dressed up, always did my hair, like a bad hair day happened.. twice in my entire 4 years. Julie: Oh my gosh. Jordan: Yeah, like I never just put it up in a clip or something. Like I always, I always did it. So it was just like always perfect there. And like, uhm, I just, I went for the friends. I hated high school and I didn’t want to help out my school at all. I didn’t do any of that. Depending on the job that I get when I’m up here, because of what I’m looking into, uhm (chuckles), it will determine. Because I thought, maybe getting into some charities, for uhm, people who have had siblings or something that are involved in meth, or helping a little bit in the gay community, but I believe that the gays are fine they’re just big drama queens. (All laugh). Julie: Uhm, how did you feel after you told people, uh, did you think it was a mistake? Do you have any doubts, or? Jordan: Uhm, the first person I ever told was my best friend Matt. Julie: And, how old were you? Jordan: I was, in 7th grade. Wait no, probably 8th grade. Because we were friends all throughout 6th, and like what not, and like we were just best friends so I mean, I knew I had to tell him. So basically I just started toying around with him, because I was always, always very “toyative” with people. Uhm, I don’t even know if that’s a real world. (We all laugh). Jordan: But it described and uhm. Like that’s what, I uh, kind of toyed around with the idea. He thought I was just joking at first, and then I told him and he took it really well so eventually he kinda just found out that for, legit I was and he took it just fine, so after that, I mean I still went through high school with an indicator like, trying to like, just keep my rep the way it was. Keep myself at the top, cause in a school like that you don’t want to fall down to the bottom. Julie: Mhm-hm. Page 14 �Jordan: And uhm, (laughs), yeah. Julie: Uhm, have you dated anyone, like, for a long time, or recently? Jordan: It’s funny that you, brought that up because, 3 days ago was my anniversary for being single for 3 years. (Laughs) So way to bring that up! Julie: (All laugh), sorry! Jordan: No, the way I look at it is, the only thing that I’ve ever had is a one night stand, which, I mean, that’s just the kind of person I am. Julie: And, do you like that? Is that, would you want a relationship? Jordan: Eventually. But where I’m going in life, I don’t want anything gettin in the way of that. Like I see all my girlfriends that like, go out and they date these guys and then they feel like shit afterwards and then like, they fuck with them and it’s just so much boy drama… I don’t want any of that. Like, right now Julie: You just want to have fun. Jordan: I just want to have fun. Honestly there’s nothin wrong with me being the way that I am I don’t think. Like, I’ve never really felt the urge to, like I mean I went on a date today, but, like, just out to lunch, but. Julie: But you do date people? Jordan: I mean, it depends. Like, I’m waitin for the right one. I’m very picky. I mean I’ve gone out with people, but I’ve never dated them dated them. Like, this is my boyfriend. (Ha). Like I’ve never had that, I mean, basically when I get a little bit tipsy I get a little slutty, and one thing leads to another, and I have a night of fun and that’s it. And then I’m content for awhile. Krysten: How do you meet these people? Jordan: I’ll meet them at a party, online, whatever. Like, don’t worry, online I’m very careful. (He laughs). I’m not like, okay let’s meet right now! You can come over no one’s here. (All laugh). Jordan: No, it’s like, I’m very careful. I make them send me like multiple pictures, and if any of them look photo edited, or like, like, like, you just went to Google and googled someone hot, and like put them on there. Hell no, you’re not comin anywhere near me. Like I’m very careful about it, but cause like I might be a blonde, and I might be a little bit ditzy, and I mean, but I got a brain on me. (Laughs) Krysten: That’s good. Jordan: Not gonna lie about it (he laughs). Julie: Uhm, what is your definition of discrimination? Page 15 �Jordan: Like, what do you mean? Julie: Just, whatever you feel like, if… if anyone’s ever discriminated against you, and what you think? Jordan: I’ve never been offended by much. As I said, I feel like the gay community’s just a bunch of drama queens and they just need to chill out. Like, I went to hick town high school and I was just fine there. Like, if I can make it through that then.. they can make it through crap. I mean, the word “faggot” pisses me off, only if it’s said multiple times. Like, but that’s a fightin word. If someone called you a faggot wouldn’t you like, get ready to beat their ass? (We laugh). Jordan: Yeah, if someone came up and was just like, faggot, like, no one likes that word. But, that’s probably the only word like, gay discriminative that I don’t like. But if like someone just says it to me when I’m walking past them, then I’m just like, whatever. But, no one has ever really discriminated against me in a way that’s really upset me. Julie: Okay. DeVonte: Have you ever been mistreated, like after you came out? Jordan: Uhm, I mean, like when I went, in high school at Plainwell, I had this like, class, and it was just like, oh my God it was wretched. It was a math class, and of course I got stuck with, and it was the only class that I’ve ever had to take for an entire year at Plainwell. Uhm, because we run on trimesters so every twelve weeks we get new classes, new schedules, new teachers, new everything. Which I loved that about it, because it was more collegy. Like, less prisoney. (Laughs). Jordan: And uhm, these, this class of people was the one that I got stuck with for 3 trimesters because it was, uhm, a 1.5 credit class and uhm, which is just awesome that I got an extra credit for doing stuff that people would only get one credit from, but, like, there was me, and then there was this weird girl that sat above me, in front of me, or no it was this kid, and then this weird girl, and then there was just weird people. Ya know, like just those nerdy kids that no one talks to. (Laughs). Well they all sat around me and I kind of sat in the back of them, and there was like the punk ass kids that thought they were too cool, in a little L, and there was probably 4 of them. And then on the other side they would all move their desks to the other side, it was like, oh my god, it was like, the trailer park, like, nasty, like redneck hillbillies, oh my god, they were completely wretched (laughter). And they would sit there and make derogatory comments about everything and about everybody, and the stuff that came out of their mouth, you could tell they were just so uneducated, and like, like, half of them failed the class. It was just really, really dumb. Like, I mean, and, they’d sit there and some of them would bash on me, and like, I’d just smile, and be like “stupid idiots”. Because I got the highest grade in the class. I passed Algebra II with a fucking 98, beat that (laughs). Page 16 �Jordan: Uhm, like I’d always wear Uggs, and they used to like say, “girl boots”, and like, like, just like, say something, like, crap what would they say. Something about I’ll whoop your ass in your girl boots, or whatever, but then I just think to myself and say, why the fuck do you even care? Julie: Mhm-hm. Julie: And what did people around you say, like what did they think or did they do anything or did they just like? Jordan: I have like, like Tara, when she sees people look at me bad, like she goes full force, like bitch on them. Like we were sittin at Cedar Point, and there were these two little girls and they were (laughs) 9 or 10, (all laugh) and they like look back at me, and the one goes up to the other one and goes, “he’s gay”. Tara’s like, “YES, he is”. (Everyone laughs loudly). Jordan: And then they’d like, keep looking back, and then Tara would just be like “What bitch”? Her parents are right there and they kind of look back, and I’d like look at them like, “what, do something bitch”? Like, she fires me up about it. I don’t usually notice anymore, cause like I just live my life and focus on what I’m doing, and like, that’s just how I am but she’ll point it out to me and be like, “that bitch over there just gave you a dirty look” and then I’ll be like (covers his mouth) Oh my god (all laugh). And just stare her down, and make them feel so comfortable that they have to leave. You’re pathetic (laughs). I win. (we all laugh). DeVonte: Do you think you have like, influenced other people to come out? Jordan: No. Julie: Do you have any friends..? Jordan: Uhm, my friend Drake that I was telling you about that goes to GVSU, he’s probably my only gay friend. Uhm, the thing is, like, have you noticed that girls hang out with girls, and guys hang out with guys. Well, I’ve always been like a girl so, I’ve always hung out with the girls, so when it comes to gay friends, it’s like I don’t really have any because I don’t really hang out with boys. And like, the, extremely flamboyant like, gay people, like I just don’t like them very much because I feel like, I feel like they’re kind of annoying, (laughs) just a little bit. And I know I’m annoying to some people, because they can’t, they don’t like seeing that, but ya know, I feel like they’re always out for drama and like, always out to see who did this, who did that, and like, they’re attention seekers like no other, and it annoys me. So, I don’t have a lot of gay friends. Julie: Is your friend Drake, uhm, did he come out before you, after you? Jordan: Before I think? Julie: Okay, so you knew him. Jordan: But, I give him props for that because he was at that school his entire life and he did it. Page 17 �Julie: Wow. Jordan: Where, I moved schools, and then did it. Which, moving schools is scary, but, the people you grew up with, having to tell them that, like after, like hiding it for so long. And he’s not the kind of gay kid that you can tell is gay. Like, he’d have to tell you. Like, and those are the kind I like. I just like real people. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: You do what you do. DeVonte: So, when you came out, how was it? Were you relieved, or like? Jordan: It kind of just happened (laughs). Julie: It’s just kind of new still? Jordan: No, it’s just a part of who I am, I mean like, you don’t go up to someone and like, I would never go up to someone and say, “Hi I’m Jordan, I’m gay”. (All agree). Jordan: Just like you wouldn’t go up to someone and say “Hi I’m Rachel, I’m straight”. (All laugh). Jordan: Like, you just don’t do it. Like, it’s just a part of who I am. Like I mean, if you want to know, I’ll tell ya. Like, it didn’t really change a lot in my life, other than the fact that I didn’t feel like I had to hide it anymore. I was able to become more myself than I ever was. And like, my friend Holly, she knew me before and after. And like, she sees me after, and she’s like, “I’m so glad, cause it’s not like you weren’t fun before, but you’re like ten times more fun now just because you let go, you let loose”. Uhm, so I’ve always been kind of like a loose canyon, just letting it go, and doing what I want to do. I don’t care what people think. Uhm, except old people. I don’t like to be around old people. (Laughter) Jordan: Like, I feel like there always lookin at me. (Laughter again). There always sittin there and watchin me, and those are the kind of people that I mind being judged by (he laughs). It’s like oh god! So, I, will never work at nursing home, or like Julie: You would never do their hair? Jordan: No! I just don’t like old people. Like, and that’s another reason why I would never wanna work in a salon. Like, old people come get their hair permed, and stuff like that. And then like, the last when I was working reception at Rivé, I got Connie’s client Wilma come in there, and she was tryin to convert me to born again Christian, and I was like, lady I’ve been through all of that (laughs), and she was like “Well you just give me a call when you go to church” and I’m all like well I’m gonna be busy the next couple of weeks. (All laugh). And she’s like, “well the Lord is, you don’t make time for the Lord he’s Page 18 �gonna come get chu”. Or something like that, and then like, like, it was just crazy and I never called her. And then like, last time I went into Rivé I brought my friend Haley lunch cause we were really tight when we worked there; she does hair there and uhm I brought her lunch, and I like call her and I’m like, fuck it’s Thursday, is Wilma comin in? (All laugh). Cause I mean, I still remember like, the, weeklys, like the people who come in and I’m like, oh crap it’s Thursday. Aww, she comes in to get her hair done on Thursday and I just had to call and make sure she wasn’t comin in cause I didn’t wanna run into her. “You never called me, the Lord shouldn’t have to wait for you”. (All laugh again). And like, it was just too much, it’s just like, I live my life the way I wanna live it. That’s another example of my, religious beliefs (laughs), so. DeVonte: Do you think your parents would like, accept the fact that you are a homosexual? Jordan: Yeah, I just don’t want to deal with it right now. Like it’s just not something that I want to do right now. Right now I’m very content keeping them out of my life, like I don’t expect them to like, like if one day I get married, I don’t want them there. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like, that kind of thing. It’s just weird I don’t want them there. Julie: Why though? Jordan: I don’t know, like, I shouldn’t really care because, I mean I don’t care what people think, but I believe that gayness is passed down, uhm. I believe it’s genetic. I don’t know how it started spreading so fast lately, I think it’s because everyone’s just like not scared anymore, but I feel like it’s always been there. Uhm, because my grandpa, who is dead (laughs) now, he was gay. And uhm, he grew up back when that wasn’t okay, so, he married my grandma and everything like that and they were married their whole lives cause they were very strict Catholics. Uhm, but, she used to own a store in Grosse Point, where they sold baskets, flowers, and stuff like that. I don’t know, they just did it cause they liked it they were already like multi-millionaires and like, lost it all because they were stupid. (All laugh). Jordan: It’s cause they were selfish, they gave us like 15 bucks for Christmas every year, I was like fuck you bastards. You have a $20 million dollar house and you’re giving us 15 bucks for Christmas. (Laughter). Jordan: But uhm, Julie: And when did he come out? Did you know? Jordan: He didn’t. Julie: Okay. Jordan: Uhm, my grandma caught him with a man. At Grosse Point, made him pick everything up and that’s how they ended up in Harbor Springs. Page 19 �Julie: Uh-huh. Jordan: Which is where my grandma still is. Julie: And they didn’t stay, they stayed together? Jordan: Yep, Catholics… crazy. Julie: Did you know him? Jordan: Yeah, oh yeah. He just died last year. Julie: Okay. Jordan: But (laughs), sorry his funeral was hilarious. (All laugh and are confused). Jordan: I know that’s like sick sounding, but, oh my god it was just funny. Like I was sittin there just holding the coffin, and like, the priest or whatever comes up and there are like little boys in white robes and he like rubs his face and sprinkles the holy water at my grandfather’s coffin, and he turns over and rubs the other little boy’s face and sprinkles more on their with his little thing and I’m just like sitting there holding my dead grandpa’s coffin, and I’m like (starts cracking up). I had soars on the inside of my mouth that day from holding my laughter in. (All laugh). Cause like, and they would change like, “bless the father, bless the mother” all together and I was like, what the hell? Then they’d be talking some jibberish and it was like, scary, it was like what the hell is going on? I’m like, I had my nails painted and everything for that one, so I’m goin up to take communion and I like took the bread, and I’m like this bread is gonna be like dry as fuck I’m gonna wait until I get to the wine to eat it. And then he like stops me and is like “No! You eat it here!” And he looked right at my nails and he was like, like, I should’ve just been like, yep that’s right! (laughs). It was just like, that thing. But my Uncle, uhm, which is my dad’s brother. He lives over in Detroit, he’s also gay. So far it’s hit every generation for the last 3, so I told my brother, you’re gettin gay kids (laughs). Ha Ha! Julie: Are you close with your Uncle? Jordan: No, no he’s, he kind of lives in his own little world. Which is what I want someday. Like, I mean they get together for thanksgiving and Christmas, and his partner comes with him. He’s got a partner, and his partner’s kind of a bitch, but he’s really funny. But uhm, like that’s just what they do. They show up for important events. And that’s what I’ll plan on doing some day. But, as far as having my family live next door and see them all the time, and have them come play with the grandkids, like that kind of stuff, like that’s not happening. That is not happening; I’m livin my own life and I don’t want you guys all over in it (laughs). Julie: Do you want to get married? Jordan: Yeah. Julie: So you see yourself getting married and having kids? Page 20 �Jordan: Yeah, I have my fantasy planned out like every teenage girl does. Julie: Would you mind sharing? (All laugh). Jordan: Uhm, I, I mean, when, when I am where I fully wanna be, uhm. Actually I had a dream the other day, and it was really scary because I ended up getting killed in it. But it was like everything I’ve ever wanted and then my husband tried to kill me and then he eventually did but. And then for some reason I, okay no I can’t get into the details of everything (All laugh again). Jordan: But uhm, not sexually (laughter), but it goes on forever there’s so many details. But uhm… uhm.. what I want someday is, like.. just like the perfect family for me. Like, I want two kids, boys cause I hate little girls. Like I mean if I could just skip like, if they could start out as a baby, and then like, skip like 4-14 with a girl, I’d take a daughter but like you can’t skip those ages and I absolutely hate them through those ages, like, I mean I didn’t even like Charlie (looks to his friend). Like I really didn’t like Charlie and the only reason I could tolerate Morgan was cause she was so dumb (everyone laughs). But uhm, yeah, so I want two sons that’s it. Uhm, I already have them named. But uhm, and then I wanna wake up in the morning, and just, get up, get my kids ready, take them to school, go do some celebrities hair, like go work out and run some errands, go pick up my kids, and then just spend the rest of the day with them. Like, cook dinner, wait for the hubby to get home, like that kind of thing. Julie: But you want like, a kind of more traditional, it sounds like you want more of a traditional, like go cook dinner for your husband, take care of the kids.. Jordan: Yeah, I mean, that’s how I feel it should be. Julie: Okay, is that how your family was or? Jordan: In a way yeah. I mean my mom and step mom have always cooked for my dad and stuff like that, but I mean I want to be able, like my mom was very neglecting. Like I don’t think she liked to be around very much, especially when I was home schooled she was never really around. Which was weird because she was supposed to be home schooling me (laughs). Uhm, like she was never around and like, I mean I feel like that’s, that’s why I was so, like fucked up for awhile. And like seriously, I, I had a drug addiction when I was like 16 that I got myself out of. Like I was snortin adderal up the nose, every day, all day, 3 times a day, never slept, never ate, and then in between adderals I was taking vicadin up the nose. I was just, totally crazy and people would see it, and like, eventually someone told me, but I don’t want my kids to ever have to do that and like, I’ve hidden my whole life from my parents. Like what they see is just, my bedroom and like, and what I go out in, which sometimes I would have to change in the car because I was not going to dress like that when I went out, and like that kind of thing so, like I mean I know, like I started wearing short shorts around my dad, which is kind of weird but I keep them at a decent length. Like up here (points to the middle of his thigh) instead of like right there (moves his hand slightly up). I have changed in my car, like after I left my house so they didn’t ask or anything, and like, say something about what I was wearing. That kind of thing. Uhm, but I have had to hide my life Page 21 �from them and I don’t want to do that with my kids. Like I want them to tell me everything if they’re going to go drop acid with their friends I want them to tell me. Like, (laughs), like I mean… and I just want that, that, nice bond. Like that’s more of my traditional views on that. DeVonte: Uhm, would you ever consider getting an operation done? Jordan: No. Julie: Why? Jordan: When I was in my mom’s stomach she got an ultrasound done. Sorry, I’m gonna open a window I’m hot. (Opens window and talks about it locking). Jordan: But uhm, I would never get that done cause I feel like I was made this way. When I was in my mom’s stomach she got an ultrasound done and I was supposed to be a girl and I came out a boy, like, Julie: Oh really? Jordan: Yeah.. that goes to tell you something. And, I feel like I mean if you’re gonna go get an operation that’s your business, but I feel like you were put on the earth the way you are for a reason, to fit someone’s puzzle. Ya know? Like I mean I feel like everyone’s a puzzle piece just waiting to fill up someone’s puzzle. Like ya know? And that’s what I’m waiting for that’s why I don’t really date. (Laughs). Cause I haven’t found the right one. Julie: Mhm-hm. DeVonte: Do you think it was more of a friendly environment in Plainwell than it was in Decatur? Jordan: Uhm…. Yes and no. I felt like in high school there were more assholes at Plainwell, but uhm, I just did my own thing. So I didn’t pay attention to them. Like, I mean I just, like I got bothered less, just because I didn’t pay attention to them, but. I mean after my brother’s class, my brother was in high school, he was a senior when I was a freshman and we were in the same school and after he graduated, like all those like assholes left, and then I was fine. So, I mean… they were, they were probably equal, like I never really got bothered that much. My dad’s a cop, everyone knew it. You don’t fuck with the cop’s kid. (Everyone laughs). DeVonte: Do you currently have a job right now? Jordan: Uhm, I don’t. I’m really workin on it. What I’m getting into is, webcaming. Uhm, I know that sounds like, bad, but like, for the money I’m gonna be making from it, it’s not that bad and uhm, basically what’s gonna happen is I’ll sit there and talk to people, and if they want to take me into private they’ll have to pay $8 a minute. Like 8 something a minute, and basically they can see what they want, but. And then they can call me anytime, uhm, they just call an 800 number and uhm, it’ll be directed towards my phone number so it’s kept completely private. Page 22 �Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: And it’s 3-4 dollars a minute for every minute that they talk to me on the phone. So, uhm. Julie: Wow. Jordan: Yeah. Julie: Where did you think of this idea? Jordan: Dr. Phil (everyone laughs). Julie: And are you like, gonna start it up soon or have you been thinking about it for awhile? Jordan: Well, I just sent in my papers yesterday. Julie: Okay. Jordan: Uhm, for them to prove that I’m 18. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: So I can start doing that. Checks come in the mail every Tuesday. And, like, seriously you work whenever you want, you just go into your bedroom, turn on the webcam, and at the end of it you walk away with $300 and some bucks. I, I mean, there’s people that sit on that for 3 hours, and they make just under a grand. Julie: Oh my gosh. Jordan: Could you imagine working for 3 hours and making that much money? Julie: That’s crazy. Jordan: That’s why I’m gettin into it. I mean, I knew I was gonna end up doin something dirty. I’ve checked out stripping, but, I mean it’s just I’d rather have the privacy of my own home. And, choose who gets to come into my sanctuary (he laughs). (We all laugh). Jordan: Uhm, even though stripping is something that like sounds really fun, the thing about me is that, like, I was a die hard partier. Like I was 16, just got my car, ya know, just escaped my mom. I was die hard partier. Partying every night. Like, just, that was when I had my problem (laughs). Uhm, so like I’ve always been a partier, I’ve always been a little bit crazy. Uhm, I have one-night stands so, it’s like, I’m clearly not that conservative about those kind of things. Like, I feel like that does come a little bit with the gayness, but at the same time, not everybody’s like that. So I don’t know, I think it’s just my personality, I mean, I, I don’t think of myself any less for it. Jordan: (He laughs). You all shook your head at the same time, that was really funny. Jordan: Haha yeah that was weird. Page 23 �Krysten: How did you move up to Grand Rapids? Jordan: Uhm, I moved up here for school. Uhm, Aveda Institute is right downtown it’s where I’m going. Krysten: Oh, I’ve been there it’s nice. Jordan: Yeah. Julie: It’s so nice. Jordan: Yeah when I saw it, I fell in love with it. Uhm, come get your hair done by me. (He laughs). Jordan: Cause then, when I become famous you can be like, “he did my hair”. (We all laugh). Krysten: It’s pricey. Jordan: Yeah, it will be pricey someday; it won’t be when I’m in school. Krysten: Well, for me to go in and get it done it’s still pretty pricey. Jordan: Oh, yeah, (laughs). I mean, I’ve got a bunch of fake hair glued to my head so, yeah (laughs). My salon bill’s not very nice either. (We all laugh). DeVonte: Are there any books or movies that you feel are most connected with? Jordan: Uhm, (looks confused), no Brokeback Mountain! Just kidding. (We all laugh). Jordan: As far as movies go… I’d have to say my favorite is Easy A. (The girls agree). Julie and Krysten: That is a good movie. Jordan: She is so like.. like I feel like that sums up a little bit of who I am. Like, minus the fact that of like, like, how conservative she actually was. Julie: Mhm-hm. Jordan: Like, I’m the kind of person who could do that. Like, I mean, I just don’t have that emotion. Like that, that, guilt factor. Ya know? I just loved her in that movie, like I felt like, that was just, wow! (Laughs). As far as books go, I don’t read. Ever (laughs again). No, scratch that. I have read a series it’s called Pen Dragon but it didn’t really relate to me at all. It was just really cool ha. Like it put Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings to shame (we all laugh again). Page 24 �DeVonte: Uhm, when you go to the restroom do you go to the male or female? Jordan: I do go to the girls, and that is strictly for comfort reasons. I am ten times more comfortable peeing in a woman’s bathroom than a men’s. Uhm, depending on my level of intoxication, is whether or not I stand up or sit down. (Everyone laughs). And, what I feel like, it’s basically what I feel like. If I go in there, and it’s a bunch of girls in there I’ll sit down so they don’t question because… ya know if you see the feet pointing the other way you’re gonna be like, what the hell? Julie: Yeah. Jordan: But uhm, yeah, so that’s basically that. Just out of comfort. Julie: Do you ever go into the men’s, or did you ever? Jordan: When I’m with my dad I’ll go into the men’s. DeVonte: And does it feel awkward going into the men’s? Jordan: Oh yeah. I see urinals and I’m like what the hell? Julie: Do people look at you differently or? Jordan: No, but when I’m with my dad I usually tone it down. Julie: Okay. Jordan: Yeah (laughs). Julie: By the way you dress, and so on. Jordan: Yep. Julie: Okay. Julie: So, what do you hope, or what do you feel like politics, and gay marriage and everything that’s going on right now. Do you ever watch the news? Do you think it interests you? Jordan: I feel like the news to me is one of the biggest wastes of time. Because me being the single person that I am, there’s nothing I can do. Like I’ve watched my whole entire life my dad, and my step mom, and everybody watch the news, and get pissed off as hell. Like, just pissed, and like, stressed out over it, but you know what? At the end of the day you can’t do anything, so why worry yourself with it. So like, I don’t watch the news. I don’t pay attention to politics. As far as gay marriage goes, uhm, I feel like, there needs to be something. I mean, maybe if you think that marriage is between a man and a woman, it’s that. Maybe you should come up with something new for the gays, I don’t know. I don’t care. It’s just when it comes down to it I want something like.. like that, says, listen this is my man, and if he leaves me I’m gettin half his shit. (All laugh and agree). Page 25 �Jordan: If you cheat on me I’m gettin it all. (Laughter again). Jordan: I also have a very unique cheating possibility if you want to hear that. Julie: Yeah, definitely. Krysten: Sure. Jordan: Okay. Uhm, when it comes to that, I feel like, like after awhile human beings are very sexual beings, considering that humans and dolphins are the only like, things that have sex for pleasure. Krysten: I’ve heard that. Jordan: Yeah, so I feel like humans are really sexual beings, and I feel like your first five years of marriage should be completely special and you should be completely loyal to your partner, uhm, but after that, if you feel the need to cheat, or like go sleep with someone else, like you just can’t get it out of your head and it’s all you think about, stuff like that. Uhm, I feel like, you should be able to do it. But, rule 1, you’re not gonna spend the night over there. You’re not gonna sleep in their bed with them. It’s gonna be sex strictly and you’re gonna come home and look me in the eyes and you’re gonna tell me exactly what happened and if you can’t do that, then it’s obviously not that important to you. Like you know.. like that’s just how I feel about it cause like I’d rather have someone, like, tell me it’s gonna happen and like, I need to do this, I need to do this to get over it, and if you can look me in the eye and do it, then obviously it was at that point, but I don’t feel, I feel like the divorce rate is so high because of that. Because people can’t realize how much of a sexual being humans are and the needs that they have. The needs, the desires, like, civilizations have fallen from peoples desires and wants. Like, I mean, just give them a little space, give them a little wiggle room (laughs). Julie: Uhm, but, so, do you, you don’t really care if there was gay marriage legalized nationwide? Jordan: Everywhere where I wanna live it’s legal (laughs). Julie: Yeah. Jordan: New York, L.A. Jordan: Like, I mean I’m good with that. If they wanna call it something else, go for it and make the little Christian people happy, but, Jordan: As you’re wearing a what would Jesus do bracelet (he laughs). (We all laugh). Jordan: Yeah, it’s no big deal I’m just messin with you. (Laughter again). Page 26 �Jordan: I’m sorry, but uhm, I mean I think that’s the biggest thing, with the gays right now. Like I mean, marriage. Like, I don’t think it’s a big deal. Like I mean, and as I said, gays are drama queens. Like, just get over it. I mean, I do think they need to fight for the right to be bound together, but, I mean call it somethin else, make it somethin else, cause, initially marriage is supposed to be between a man and a woman. And I do, believe that. But I mean, will I get married someday? Hell yeah. But. Julie: What advice do you have to anyone, for someone, that is coming out? If you have any? Jordan: Just do it. Do it on your own terms, do what feels right. Suck it up and just do it. Like, cause honestly it’s who you are and if you can’t live as who you are you’re not livin. Julie: Yup. Julie: Uhm, do you have any regrets about coming out, or telling people, or what their reactions or anything like that or no? Jordan: No, I’ve never had any regrets. I mean, I am who I am. And like I’ve gotten to that point where uhm, just the way I grew up, with the childhood, moving around, like all that stuff that I’ve grown into. That’s a lot. That’s a lot than what most like people, go through, as like, growing up. Uhm, like, just the way that my life has been set up, I’ve lived a lot more than most people would. So I’ve had more experience, I have that knowledge so I know that I just don’t live with regrets. Like I’m completely happy, living like this. I don’t know, I think I got kind of sidetracked in this. Julie: (Laughs). No that’s good. Jordan: Okay. Julie: Do you have any other comments that you want to say? Jordan: What’s it like to be straight? No (everyone laughs). Julie: I know now you’re going to ask us questions. (Laughter continues). Jordan: No, I’m just kidding I know what it’s like to be that. Uhm…. Julie: Have you ever been with a girl? Jordan: Yeah. Julie: And, did enjoy it or? Jordan: I mean.. Rachel: (Jordan's friend) Do you remember how you told me? Jordan: About what? Page 27 �Rachel: Like when you were with a female rather than a male, ya know like the feeling or whatever. Like that feeling you get. Jordan: Yeah, I mean it still feels good, it’s a vagina. Rachel: No, I mean remember you told me, like you said like, you know how like, when you’re with someone, and you get like, not like the feeling of like, sex, or whatever, but like that connection or whatever? How you said that you didn’t get with a girl. Jordan: No, yeah you just don’t get it. Like when I see a hot guy I’m like holy shit. Like you know when you go out with someone for the first time and you’re like really into him, and like, you get those butterflies and you feel crazy, stuff like that. You don’t get that. You don’t get that sexual build-up, the sexual tension, just being like, just, ah. Basically, you don’t get that. And that just goes to show that it’s not a choice because like I mean I’ve tried. Like, who hasn’t tried? Honestly? And, you know what, that’s probably the one thing that I regret… is hiding myself for so long. Julie: And trying to feel, were you trying to like the person that you were with or something? Jordan: Yeah, I mean like I liked them, and then like there were times when I like, I was like, I want to date this person. But the more I thought about it, is like, I mean, after about a month I’m gonna lose interest in them and not want to go any farther with this person and it’s not fair to them, so yeah. That’s another reason why I haven’t dated because after awhile I’ll just lose interest and not even want too. END OF INTERVIEW Page 28 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b0f462f9fa755005c9fdebd71401a7fd.mp3 3addb888916f0006ef1c95fe22975e35 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Serla_Jordan Title A name given to the resource Jordan Serla audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Serla, Jordan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Doescher, Julie Jones, DeVonte Velderman, Krysten Description An account of the resource Jordan Serla discusses growing up gay in a small town. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Gays--Personal narratives Homophobia Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-15 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/563c4b04a27394be1f977baf81163178.pdf 1075825fe6b17e1be43d5a4bd40be3f7 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Cynthia Mader Interviewers: Kailey Rosema, Stephen Pratt and Erica Immekus Supervising Faculty: Liberal Studies Department Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/13/2012 Runtime: 00:49:36 Biography and Description Cynthia Mader is an outstanding woman who is an advocate for the advancement of civil rights for the LGBTQ community in the West Michigan area, as well as a professor in Grand Valley State University‟s College of Education. Recently, Cynthia was awarded the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Women's Commission, March 13th, 2012. Cynthia‟s involvement for social justice led her to be the First Board of Directors within the Lesbian and Gay Community Network Incorporated, in which she organized Grand Rapids‟ first pride celebration, and fought with local public administration offices for the passing of laws that banned sexual orientation discrimination Transcript Kailey Rosema: Okay my name is Kailey Rosema and I‟m here with Erica Immekus and Stephen Pratt. We are interviewing Cynthia Mader downtown Grand Rapids at Grand Valley‟s Pew campus in the Eberhard building. It is Tuesday, March 15, 2012 at 11:30 A.M. So Cynthia if you don‟t mind starting off maybe telling us a little bit about your family, your background, childhood, growing up life... Cynthia Mader: It was pretty ordinary, umm nothing, nothing out of the ordinary. Umm I was raised on the other side of the state. I was born in 1942, umm so I‟m nearing retirement here at Grand Valley. So as I said, I was born on the other side of the state in Bay City, Michigan. Small family, mother, father, one sister. Umm, Catholic family. I went to Catholic schools, Catholic grade school, Catholic high school. And then I went to Aquinas College here in town, I moved to Grand Rapids, which of course is a Catholic College. And then, for 23 years I taught in a Catholic high school here in town, Catholic Central and West Catholic. So umm, as far as childhood, it was I‟m sure as ordinary and, umm, there was nothing uncommon about it. My parents were married, stayed married. They were middle class, maybe a little bit more comfortable than just middle class, but certainly not wealthy. I had good friends, got along in school. I wish I could tell you some horror stories and I don‟t have a single one to Page 1 �tell you! So, I don‟t know, are there other things that you would like to know about childhood and growing up? I did all the things that kids do. You know, and in high school, student council and all those Girl Scout kinds of things. Umm, I dated, the usual. KR: When you moved to Western Michigan, was that specifically for school? CM: Yes, that‟s what brought me here, was Aquinas College. And I never moved out again, I mean I never moved back to my hometown. I did go back there a lot, but I‟ve lived in Grand Rapids ever since. I love Grand Rapids, I think it‟s just a perfect town, perfect town for me anyway. Umm, but yes, I‟ve lived here all my life, and worked here all my life in the Grand Rapids area, but that‟s what brought me here. KR: Okay, good. Umm, so can you tell us a little bit about your education? CM: My education... Well, I‟ve had the good luck of being able to go to school a lot, I like to go to school. And I‟ve been able to because I‟m single, have been single. No family, no children. I don‟t know how people do it. I really don‟t know how, especially women, I don‟t know they do it, when they‟re working and have a family and try to get advanced degrees. But at any rate, I got my undergrad degree from Aquinas in English and education, and French and social studies too. Although I‟m certified to teach those, but it would be just a travesty if I ever tried to teach French! That was my undergrad. After that, again as I said I had the time and interest, I went on and earned three Masters degrees after that. A Masters in English, a Masters in library science, and a Masters in counseling. All of which helped with a teaching certificate because you can do all of those things in schools. And then, umm, I was teaching high school at the time during all of that, and then I began my PhD and finished that in 1994 I think it was. I had already come to Grand Valley to work by that time, but right around that time I finished that degree and I haven‟t stepped foot into a classroom as a student since then. Stephen Pratt: So was all of your college classes, Undergrad and Graduate, all at Aquinas? CM: No, umm, no, the undergrad was all there. Graduate was at Michigan State and U of M. SP: So you did bump around from Grand Rapids a little bit. CM: Oh yeah, yeah. And if I weren‟t working full time I probably would have gone further afield, but its pretty hard to do that and work full time. And for some reason it never occurred to me to take off time, you know as many many people do now, just go to the school that you want to go to and get a graduate assistantship and go full time, but that never occurred to me. I was always on a commuter basis. KR: Alright, so how did you start becoming involved in the LGBTQ community? CM: Well, I was relatively old before I became involved in the community. I always knew I was gay, I mean, as early as anyone knows anything like that. And I certainly had individual relationships during my adult life. Very stable, very good relationships. But I wasn‟t involved Page 2 �in the community at all. Teaching in a Catholic school, [CM chuckles] kind of, well, militates against that. You just don‟t. So it wasn‟t until I left K-12 teaching and went into higher ed that I had began to be involved in the gay community in town, and began to realize what a huge community it is. I think most people would be surprised how many men and women there are and how many close friendships and groups and activities... and well close friendships I guess is really...and long standing relationships. So at any rate, I became involved during a time when, lets see, it would have been... hmm, the 80‟s or early 90‟s, when the gay movement, it was a movement by then. It had not been a movement, there was just people, individual people. But by then it was becoming a rights of a gay movement for civil rights. And I happened to become involved around the time, of I don‟t know if you‟re aware of the Gay March on Washington? SP, KR, & EI: Yes [All nod and answer in agreement] CM: Are you? Okay good for you. Yes, so it was right...well you tell me the year, „87 perhaps? I can‟t remember. But that was exactly the time when I became involved. I was not on the march or anything, but people came back to this area absolutely fired up, having been on that march. And decided „Hey, we can put something together in this community!‟ Something that is formalized, something that is visible, something that is political and social, but something that gives a face to the community because there had been nothing of course as I said, just individual people. And so, at that point, many people joined together, coalesced around two men who had recently moved here from San Diego and were much more involved and politically savvy [CM laughs] than we were in Grand Rapids. But they were kind of the center of this. And from that grew the, umm, Lesbian and Gay Community Network Incorporated. I don‟t know if you‟re aware of that organization. Most organizations like that, that are small and grassroots, they just don‟t last; I think two or three years is the average life, but that is still going strong, about 20 years I think it‟s been in Grand Rapids. It serves as kind of an umbrella organization, and a political organization, a political wing to meet with politicians, to meet with city officials, with schools, and just all sorts of things- It‟s an outreach kind of organization. So that‟s when I became involved and that‟s how I became involved. I was on the first Board of Directors for the first couple years- the first couple of terms I guess for about six years or so. I have not been as involved in it, aside from being a member since that time, but it is flourishing, it‟s very very active. It met with a lot of resistance at first, umm, as you can imagine Grand Rapids in 1989 or whatever that was, 1990 was not particularly hospitable to any organization like that- let alone one that had a building, had a face, had people out interviewing with the news and things like that. So that‟s the involvement. From that point on, I became less directly involved with that, and more personally involved with friends- large large groups of friends. And probably more politically involved with women‟s issues, which is often the course I think that women in the movement take. For some reason, who knows why, it seems to happen that in these local movements, umm, they tend to be gender balanced at the beginning, but then I don‟t know whether the women kind of drop out, or the men step in [CM laughs]. I‟m not sure what it is, but they tend to be pretty male, I Page 3 �don‟t want to say dominated because that‟s kind of a negative connotation, but male-led after that. Umm, I think it‟s probably because women are maybe more interested in women‟s issues: Family care, child care, things that the YWCA would be doing, rather than the gay movement. I think that men are more tuned, boy talk about stereotypes [Subtle laughter from everyone], men are more tuned to political edge. And certainly women want rights too, I‟m not in any way denying that. But I think I‟m a little far off topic too [Everyone laughs]. So that‟s how I got involved. KR: Okay, when you were, umm you said you were the First Chair of Directors. What kind of stuff did you do for the... CM: For the network? KR: Yeah. CM: Oh yeah, First Board of Directors. Oh my Lord, well first of all just to get an outfit like that up and running is just an enormous volunteer task. We worked night and day, night and day to, you know, I mean it‟s just stuff like bylaws, mission statements, vision statements- All of which is kind of peripheral, but the first main activity was the pride celebration. Now it‟s an annual celebration in June downtown. I think now it‟s around the Ford Museum, I think, although it might be elsewhere. I haven‟t gone in a while. But to have a pride celebration in Grand Rapids, a gay pride celebration in Grand Rapids at that time, Oh my Lord, umm gay people were being shot at ya know, for organizing and being visible. That of course didn‟t happen, it was down at the Calder. Music, crafts, food, it was truly a celebration. And people kind of, [CM pauses], it was a real risk. You thought you were taking a risk to go down there. And it turned out to be very calm, entertaining. There were a lot of protesters around, but they didn‟t bother the group too much. It was, [CM pauses], It‟s almost like a test of whether those fears were accurate or not. And they were accurate, people were getting killed elsewhere, but I think in the gay community a lot of people didn‟t want to be visible because they were afraid of being discriminated against, losing their job, losing their family, whatever. So it kind of became an inner test of “Is anything bad really going to happen?”. And for the most part, no! For the most part it was a nice news story. And it has continued on ever since, that particular celebration. That was the first visible event that the network decided to do. Beyond that, oh gosh, we did a lot of organizing around a city ordinance with sexual orientation as a protected class. And that took several years with a lot of debate in the newspapers everywhere. A lot of debate, a lot of talking to city officials, umm, it just went on and on and on. And finally the city commission did indeed put in the sexual orientation ordinance that says it‟s illegal in Grand Rapids to discriminate in housing and employment, so that was a huge step. Beyond that it was ongoing activities. Umm, service projects, speaker groups, education, you name it, the network was there, and still is. Page 4 �SP: Was there any point where there was just a large amount of protesters or a large push back towards the gay community? CM: Over the ordinance there was. Yes a lot of businesses got together sending out, well you could call it hate literature if you wanted to, so there was that. But by the time the network began, the worst had happened in Grand Rapids. Again, it‟s hard to say the worst had happened because it was such an invisible group. Prior to that nobody came out, it was just, I mean you simply didn‟t. There were a few gay bars, and I, I was just kind of at the edge of that, in the sense of I was too young to have been in that particular era, but I certainly know many people who talk about raids on the gay bars, and fear and arrests and things like that. As I say I was a little too young and just missed that period. By the time I got involved, the sixties had happened, the black civil rights movement was well underway, the women‟s movement was well underway, so there was a little bit more awareness. So I can‟t say that there was ever violence by any means, there was a lot of hatred though, at the visibility. And of course, ya know, West Michigan is a very nice area, and the feeling in West Michigan has always been: “I don‟t care what you do, I just don‟t want to see it, I don‟t want to see it”. Well, that‟s not the best message to send a human being [CM chuckles]. So anyway... SP: What did, uhh, what did your family and friends think and what did, uhh.. were you still Catholic at this point? CM: ..mhmm.. Still am, uh huh. In kind of a cultural sense… SP: So what kind of feedback did you get back from… CM: ... None from my family. I never spoke about it to them…[SP says an understanding “no”] never spoke it about it to them… Um, I lived 150 miles away so it was easy not to talk about it. Um, they would visit here, and, you know, for a week and a half you can… you can live any way you want and not have your friends around or anything like that. Um, my friends by then… friends were friends… there was… [CM stutters while thinking of what to say] I‟ve never had a bad experience. I really have to say that. And I wish I could give you something juicy for your, for your tape here [group laughter] but I‟ve personally never had a bad experience. Maybe I‟ve protected myself, I don‟t know, maybe I‟ve isolated myself and not put myself out there, I don‟t think that‟s the case though. I think I‟ve had extraordinarily good friends and extraordinarily um, oh, well informed friends. So for me, that hasn‟t been much of an issue, however, there‟s something, I…I… I can‟t quite explain it and you‟re young enough so you might not get this but there‟s something just weird about saying I am gay, because all it talks about is who you fall in love with, that‟s all it talks about. And yet it becomes for some people, such an identifying trait and, you know that, “that‟s my gay friend” [CM laughs] um, rather than that‟s my friend. So, its, its just, it was a weird feeling all of that time and still is to a certain extent. I, um, I happen to teach grad classes that have a lot to do with social justice issues just like your U.S. diversity. And when we get to um, sexuality, I articulate the fact that I‟m a lesbian. [CM chuckles] It‟s kind of interesting, over the years, because I‟ve taught the class a long time, over the years, the Page 5 �reaction is different. It‟s much calmer, there‟s not, “Oh my God!”, you know, which it used to be. Um, people are much less, you know on the discussion board, much less vitriolic and I uh… gay people… [CM mocks former anti-gays views on keeping their sexuality out of the public‟s eye] “I don‟t care what they do, just keep it out of my face.” There‟s much, much less of that. So, um, the times have changed, really, times have moved forward. It‟s not there yet by any means, I don‟t know if it ever will be, but, but it‟s improving. KR: Um, when you were growing up, was there anything that further influenced you or your involvement or your identity like people, articles, news? CM: It was so oblivious. I mean I knew I wasn‟t experiencing the same things my friends were. I knew I wasn‟t falling in love with that boy in geometry [CM chuckles]. But, that was about as close as I came to, to realizing anything. I don‟t think it was until, I don‟t know, maybe late college, early… excuse me, late high school, early college, that I even put a name to what that difference was. All I knew was that, I knew enough not to talk about it. I guess I knew something, didn‟t I? I knew enough not to talk about it. Um, but mostly I just knew that I was not experiencing the same feelings that they were experiencing and talking about. And so, as far as influences, that too is hard to say. Um, there was nothing… the subject was never spoken of. Neither plus nor minus in my hometown which was a small hometown, catholic school, um, so it wasn‟t spoken about… I knew, I knew something was wrong, I thought I‟d outgrow it [CM chuckles]. Uh, so I can‟t name in influence at all. I can name good influences on, on, on the way that I grew to think about things. And the fact that I‟ve never really experienced that so called catholic guilt. I think my catholic upbringing was a little bit different then many people. It was quite enlightened, it was quite forward thinking, and so I… I kind of experienced social discomfort. Worrying about what people would think, but I never experienced that guilt, that religious guilt. So… and then beyond that, college… of course, after… by that time you know, you start to read, you start to talk, you start to inform yourself, and so yeah, those were influences on me. But, beyond that, I don‟t think… I just read widely and have followed the movement for, even before it was a movement and evolved with it. And, um… that‟s, that‟s it as far as influences. My own reading has been the biggest influence… and then um… But not growing up, there, I can‟t say one way or another at all. [CM shakes her head in disbelief of having any influences] KR: When you were working in the network, was there anyone, or anything, or an event that empowered you to become more involved or take more actions? CM: I think it was the whole series of events of just being out there. Because what it does is it tells you, nothing‟s going to happen. [Cynthia chuckles due to her ironic realization]. And not only does nothing happen, it, I think the biggest thing that happens internally. Because to go through, you know I look back to when I was teaching high school 23 years, 23 years of not being, of not identifying, not articulating who I really was, not talking about any of my outside work friends or anything like that; I think it sends a terrible message to yourself that there‟s Page 6 �something about you that can‟t be spoken about, that can see the light of day. So my involvement with the network and with that growing community of friends [Stephen Pratt coughs] allowed me to, to just abandon that way of life, I never, never ever repeat that again. KR: Um, let‟s see. Was there um, before you became involved you said there wasn‟t much, um, going on for civil rights… [in the LGBTQ community] CM: Not in the LGBT community, right, yeah. Definitely the, uh, the black community and I was very involved with that. And if you want an influence, probably that was, the whole civil rights, black civil rights movement influenced me deeply and, and made me realize, um, the political possibilities, um, how, how you could make change, how things have happened, how, how sometimes power is so subtle that people don‟t even realize that they‟re being subordinated, all of those things. The civil rights movement had a huge influence on me. The women‟s movement after that had a big influence on me also. In many ways, in many ways they‟re parallel, in many ways they‟re not, but in many ways they‟re parallel. [CM hums in agreement with her thoughts] SP: So between the two movements, there was, you had, did you have a lot of involvement in both at the time? CM: Yes I did, yes I did. It gave me a way of thinking. So that, but even then, you know, I thought well, but, but being gay is different; that‟s not, that‟s not civil, that‟s not African American, that‟s not women‟s movement, that‟s something different that‟s off to the side, don‟t, there‟s nothing to be involved there because that‟s quiet, silent, invisible. But it began to give me a way of thinking, mhmm, it allowed me then to pursue that. [CM hums in agreement with her thoughts] KR: How are you involved in the African American communities, like you were saying? CM: Yeah, well, bear in mind that that didn‟t really flourish until, well, it flourished, but it didn‟t come to the general public‟s attention until in the late fifties and sixties. At that time I was in college and I was at Aquinas [college] and Aquinas [college] is a very, very, um, good institution when it comes to social justice issues. So, uh, we marched, we sang, we licked envelopes, we did all sorts of things in that, uh, in that period of time. And then, after that I was teaching high school and so there were involvements there also, with, you know, African American student groups and, and, oh gosh, there were workshops, there was, oh it was the Vietnam war. I mean you talk about a time that was exciting, and, and just “wow” something going on all the time regarding civil rights. [CM hums in agreement with her thoughts] KR: Um, going back to your work in the LGBTQ community, [CM says “mhmm”] um, did you ever do any work outside of Grand Rapids at all? CM: No. Um, I don‟t know if you‟d like to get into this, but Grand Valley, would you like to talk about work at Grand Valley? Page 7 �KR: Yeah. SP: Of course. CM: Okay, um [CM clears her throat], well, hmm hmm. When I came to Grand Valley… I knew a lot of people here already because I lived in the area so I already had a lot of gay and lesbian friends here at Grand Valley already. But, again, a very invisible community, very invisible. And, and now, things like domestic partner benefits are a given. Things like um, protection, sexual orientation, and the affirmative action and equal protection clause, absolutely a given. But at that time, I don‟t think anyone breathed the word, um, it was just circles of friends, obviously. But as far as the university, there was nothing. And you may be familiar with some of the climate studies that have been done here at Grand Valley. I don‟t know that within your time here but about every, I don‟t know, every five to ten years, Grand Valley has done a, a so called climate study. Mostly to kind of gauge the temperature on women‟s issues and, uh, race issues and things like that. Well the first one was done shortly after I was here. And through that study, it became obvious that there was a fair population of, of gay and lesbian people, staff and faculty, who were not particularly, who didn‟t really feel like the, the… [CM chuckles] Grand Valley family, that, that we all talk about, you know, we really kind of felt second class. Because there were no benefits, none of that for families and things like that. So, as many of these things happen, it happened with a few people. I and… I‟m not going to name names because, just because, um, I don‟t know if they‟re interested in being online with this. But I and about four other women started to approach the president, uh, President Lubbers at that time. And bless his heart, President Lubbers is a good man but I think he was… pardon me President Lubbers if you listen to this [EI chuckles] but I think he was a little bit clueless uh, that there were even people on his campus… [CM laughs] And, and I think he wanted to do the right thing but of course, politically, it would be very, very difficult for him to back any kind of gay/ lesbian stuff in this town. Not with the donors that donated to Grand Valley which were very, very conservative group. And so, he encouraged us, but, I can‟t say it was out-front. We then began to expand into a more formal organization which has now become the Faculty Staff Association of Gay and Lesbian faculty and staff and we started to get together and talk about can we do as a group, not anymore as individuals, but what can we do as a group. One of the things we wanted, because every other institution had it, is domestic partner benefits. I don‟t know if you‟re aware, aware of what domestic partner benefits are just as in, um, um, straight couples. The spouse or partner, spouse, um, can get health benefits and all the other health benefits that the university affords. Um, we of course couldn‟t. And so we really began lobbying for that. We started talking to board members, we started talking to the various organizations on campus; the faculty senate, the AP association, um, women‟s commission. Every possible, conceivable organization and got their backing. And finally, after about two years of talking and saying “here we are, we‟re decent people, ya know, we‟re okay” uh, and there are about fifty of us, finally President Lubbers decided he that would back it, he would back the request for domestic partner benefits. The only thing is he wanted it to be kept fairly quiet so that the newspapers didn‟t jump on it before it was done and just ruin the whole thing. So he was, um, all set to put it for a word to the Page 8 �board of trustees and somewhere in that week in between, the newspaper did get a hold of it and there was a front page story saying Grand Valley is going to start to give domestic partner benefits. And I guess, from what I understand, he was inundated by donors. Saying, “uh uhh, [CM laughs in disbelief] our money is out of here, if you, if you do that, we will not allow that. If you go ahead and do domestic partner benefits, we‟re out of here, you will get no more money from us”. And they were big names, and you can imagine who some of those big names were. Many of our buildings are named after them. And he backed down, and it was a very difficult time, I‟m sure for him, because he had to back down publicly. After being quoted in the Grand Rapids Press as saying it was the right thing to do, six days later, he had to be quoted in the Grand Rapids Press as saying, well, perhaps I was hasty. And it was a very sad time, I‟m sure for him, and it certainly was for us. Then, there was a new president, and this goes on forever… There was a new president, new change in administration and they were no more willing, no more. That was President Murray‟s administration. He was only here for two years. He was very in tuned with the business community and just did not see it as a very wise thing to do. So… Um, we kept talking and talking and talking and finally about five years ago, the board, with very little fan fair instituted domestic benefits for LGBT in faculty and staff. And that was a huge victory. [It] sounds like such a little thing but we were; I think Grand Valley was the last in the state to do it. It might‟ve been second from last in the higher education institution. So that‟s one example here at Grand Valley. And things have just done a complete turnaround! I‟m not saying that it‟s perfect here for, um, especially here for students, it might be tough. But for faculty and staff, it‟s light years different from what it used to be. There‟s no, there‟s no negative feelings, there‟s no need to be invisible, there just isn‟t. It‟s a totally different environment. Some people may choose to for whatever reason, but totally different environment with a very active association. Uh, there‟s the LGBT center; that in itself took, uh, five years I think to convince them to get. Uh, yeah, they agreed to it in principle… [CM mocks the former Grand Valley politics] “yes yes yes yes, it‟s needed in principle…” But for the… We joke, for the first two or three years, the center, the center bear in mind, was a bookshelf [CM laughs in disbelief] over in, over in Kirkoff, or over in student services, I can‟t remember. And then, as you probably know, Professor Milt Ford really took it in hand and became the director; he was appointed director and then it became a center. Colette Beighley is the director now… It‟s a wonderful, wonderful resource. Sometimes I look at their programming; the movies and the speakers they‟re bringing in and I think, my gosh, ya know, it‟s like U of M, we‟re big time! Really fascinating programming and kind of, um, kind of, some of it‟s on the edge, ya know, they do a wonderful job. KR: Are you involved with them at all right now, currently? CM: Uhm, oh I certainly uh support. I am a member. I uhm, Being here in uhm, Grand Rapids makes it a little tough to be as involved on campus as I used to be and as I wanted to be. I, we used to be on campus, and you know you were a short walk away from everybody, it‟s a little bit different here now but, so no I am not as involved no. But I am certainly, not as directly involved, but very involved supportively. Mhmm. Page 9 �KR: Awesome, uhm, do you know what kind of projects they are currently working on at all or... CM: No, I think it‟s mostly to improve to, to just do more of the same... oh by the way are you familiar with the film, the LGBT history of West Michigan? SP: Ya, that‟s what we watched in class CM: Oh you did watch that SP: Actually we watched… [All talking at once] CM: Okay..I was, I don‟t know if you recognize.. people come up to me on the street and they say “those glasses, where have I met you before?” and we finally realized it was in that documentary! I‟m serious it has happened more than once! Which shows you how often I get glasses, get new glasses. [laughs] But yes, yeah that uhm.. but oh, what a wonderful documentary that was and the center was part of that. SP: I know that that video kinda touched on uhm, a lot of, a lot of people in the gay community that were involved with… CM: Oh, yes! SP: AIDS and STDS and… CM: Oh, yes! SP: Things of that sort, what kind of impact did that have on the Grand Rapids community? And especially personally? CM: Well, I certainly lost of gay male friends. A LOT. I can‟t tell you how many, [sighs] uhm memorial services and funerals that I might speak at or attend. A lot.. Uhm.. This might sound odd because I‟m on the one hand, AIDS was oh, in some ways it convinced the bigoted community that, this was God‟s punishment on gay people. That there you would see bumper stickers uhh, “AIDS IS GOD‟S PUNISHMENT” you‟d see bumper stickers saying that! [Explained in astonished voice] So anyway, on the one hand it had that just devastating affect politically in the community on the other hand I don‟t want in any way to at all call it a blessing but it gave a human face [pauses] to the gay community. Once people started realizing, oh my gosh. The guy I used to work with, just died of AIDS. Oh my god, I loved him. [mocking demeanor of such surprised individuals] And that of course happened, over and over and over again. I think people began to realize its not some fringe group, these are people that are integrated in my life, these are people I know. So, I would never say AIDS was a blessing on the gay community but it sure had some good results, I think. Mhmm. Uhm, and and its another group here in town as you have said, in the documentary, that the AIDS resource center was mmm, the work that they did at that time, that nobody else would, nobody would even visit those Page 10 �men. Who were sick and dying in their homes, uhm, AIDS resource center was just a magnificent work. KR: Were you involved with the AIDS resource center? CM: No, I‟m sorry to say that I wasn‟t, no. I mean as part of the network we have supported all of that, publicized all of it. But, no as far as directly working with it I didn‟t. KR: Uhm, how do you think the movie or documentary impacted people, [CM placed coffee cup on desk] not only at Grand Valley, but within our community. CM: Well you know, I, I would almost ask you that question. When I first saw it I was at the premiere showing of it, here on campus. It was over at Lucemore, it was just this fall. And it was I don‟t know if you have been told this but there was 700 people. It was uh, uh not a sellout, it was free had nothing to sell but it was an overflow audience, 200 had to watch it from another room or something like that. It was of course beautifully received there because a lot of the people who were there are knowing that it was going to be shown for the first time were people who had been involved historically for all of those years. I happened that night, to be sitting next to a student I had taught in high school. Uhm, she was a person who has been quite active in the Grand Rap… She was a straight woman, uhm but very active in the Grand Rapids community within theatre and things like that. Well I happened to be sitting next to her I mean we had [stammers] knew I mean we had seen each other through the years [breath] uh and she had probably knew that uh that I was gay, uh but her reaction was more interesting to me than the reaction of all the other people, they loved it. But after, she said I had no idea to think that when you would come in and teach us Shakespeare, [CM chuckles] that that night you were out there doing all these political things and meeting with the mayor and signing city ordinances and things like that. She said she had no idea that any of that was going on at that time, she just found that fascinating. [breathe] so uh, the time that I saw it it was very well received, I haven‟t I have shown portions in my class uh, oh the portion I show is the Jerry Crane portion. The teacher, the teacher in Byron Center that was fired and who subsequently died, I showed that and the minister who was talking uh, I knew Jerry Crane, not well, but I knew him a little bit, and his partner Randy. Uhm, so. What was the reaction when you saw it in class? KR: Uhm, I enjoyed it personally. I just thought that it was cool that people in the community at Grand Valley were spreading awareness and… CM: yeah, yeah. I was just delighted that Grand Valley had a part in it. And that‟s, that‟s the LGBT center, that‟s Collete Bagley, Bigley. Who is responsible for getting this out there, all the time. She‟s really, she‟s a dynamicist really. SP: It was definitely an eye opener, that‟s for sure. CM: Ah SP: I‟m sure it was to a lot of people Page 11 �CM: Really!? SP: Especially in our class CM: Huh..In the sense that?... SP: In the sense that, I was just unaware and that I had no idea CM: Uh huh, of all that had been going on SP: Right, yeah especially how far it had gone back into the history of Grand Rapids… CM: Oh, yeah SP: .. and community CM: and..and of course the people, that you may not recall, but the very first person talking, uh, she was just sitting alone in her room, and she had shorts on, and I can‟t remember…she was talking about the gay bar scene for women, uhm, very good friend of mine, and she had been involved during that period. Pre-dating me, she she‟s the same age as me, but as I say I kind of got involved in the community later. I wish that somebody could do a documentary on that scene, that prehistory of Grand Rapids where everybody was closeted. Uhm, and the only place that you could meet, was in the, in gay bars, and homes of course. Jeff Smith the person who did the documentary says he is thinking of doing that, probably would need to do it fairly soon because that that‟s an older population, older even than even I am, or older than even she is you know. For the most part, those women would now be in their 80s maybe, most of them, late 70s and 80s.. [pause] so, well I‟m glad that you like the documentary. KR: Mhmm.. uhm, lets see. How do you think that, like throughout the years of being an activist, uhm.. how do you think your views, did they change at all or… CM: No, I think they just became more uhm deep rooted, deep seeded, yeah. And in class when we talk about it, students often ask me if I would change, if I could. Uhm, uhh [breathes out in awe], No the answer is absolutely not. I said uh well ya know, it would be a whole lot easier for you if you did, or it would have been a lot. I think it had, I think it has given me, again I don‟t want to say that it‟s a blessing but in a way it is, I think it‟s given me kind of uh, uh a double vision. Uh, when I was growing up and younger people would say things about African Americans they would say things about, in my home town, Mexicans, they would say things about uh, single mothers, illegitimate children [laughs] and they would say things about gay people. And I, I can remember thinking, hmmm I know that‟s not true what they are saying, I know that‟s not true about me, and I know that‟s not true about what they are saying about my friends, maybe it‟s not true what they are saying about black people, or Mexican people or illegitimate children, which is what they were called, or single mothers uhm. Or welfare, maybe its not true about them either. So it has kind of given me uh, uhm like a second lense almost, to Page 12 �look through. So, no. My my answer feelings haven‟t changed, or my thoughts, they‟ve just grown more convinced. SP: Whenever students would ask you if you could change would you, did you ever, has there ever been like uh, a jealousy of not having a family like a like the normal [sarcasm], the American family CM: The American dream? [Chuckles] SP: Yeah, the American dream type of deal CM: [laughs] it really has never bothered me, I think it might some people, although with things developing as they are now that‟s gonna be possible, it already is many, many people are already living lives made it possible. But no, it‟s never been uh, a regret of mine or anything. Uh, uh. Sometimes, as I get older I wonder, hmmm who‟s gonna take care of me when I‟m in the hollowed home [sarcasm and laughs] things will work out. KR: Uhm, let‟s see. [pause] Is there uhm EI: I know you talked about how you said that you can like see changes occurring, uhm what within the community can you like truly like see a difference in like in especially like within Grand Valley if you have seen anything CM: Oh, just the openness EI: Just the openness? CM: Oh my Lord Yes. [With enthusiasm] Yeah. Just the openness. Uh, there is no other way to say it. It‟s, uh a non-issue now. And, and, and its not that its not supported I mean it it‟s an issue at the LGBT center and its an issue whenever there is harassment and stuff like that, its… it it its [stammers] just like its different era we‟re breathing. In uh, in society in general, I think that to me the biggest difference, I never [emphasized] would have in million years dream that we would talk about gay marriage. Ever! [laughs] uhm, I don‟t it will happen, it will certainly happen in our lifetimes, but ah, who would ever have thought that when you consider 25, 30 years ago, and even today some people are afraid to self-identify and now we are talking about the possibility of gay marriage, woah! Its, its remarkable and when you get discouraged, it‟s helpful to look back at at things. Doesn‟t mean there‟s any less resentment and hate out there, because there is a lot of it, but it‟ll change. Mhmm. KR: Where do you see uhm, the civil rights of the LGBTQ community going in the future. Like what topics may be.. CM: I think gay marriage is the ultimate KR: Mhmm Page 13 �CM: Mhmm, [breathes] in fact [laughs] those of us who came up through the harder times, ya know when you come up through hard times you kind of develop a sense of comradeship and we‟re all in this together against the world some, of us have said oh, when we‟re like everybody else [chuckles] maybe we‟re gonna miss that, that comradeship but ya know for African Americans it was known as black pride at that time uhm, gay pride, maybe we‟re going to miss kind of fighting against the world. Just us against them. But if so, it‟s worth it for civil rights. I mean it it it it [stammers] if we did miss that, that‟s a small thing to miss, yeah.. it‟s a good trade off to have civil rights, SP: So I know that you said that it throughout, that you‟ve seen a change throughout the straight community where they have become more accepting… CM: Mhmmm SP: ...is that, what is your reaction to the west Michigan lifestyle, if you will, that that community has become more accepting of the gay community CM: [stutters] change in them or change in? SP: A change in them, a change in... CM: In them? SP: ...how do you think, how do you feel that they, that you‟ve gotten the western Michigan people to become more accepting CM: Uhm, it was never overt hatred before, so its hard ya know its hard to say SP: Mhmm CM: Now that there is, because it was never overt before all I can say is, it it theres not the tension. Uhm, nope. Uh, you you might think twice before you self-identify, or or or are open, you might think twice, but..but by the time you think the third time you think, who cares. [laughs] they‟ll, ya know like what are they gonna do. Now that‟s not everybody. There are a lot of people who have a whole lot at stake and who, simply can‟t, I mean I‟m not in a perfect position for heaven‟s sakes, I‟m tenured faculty, you can‟t get much more safe than that. I really mean that I‟ve never had to worry about employment. Employment is a huge issue, uh in some cases uh, custody battle. Huge issue with some parents worry „I have to give up my children‟ if I‟m open. So, mhmm. KR: Uhm. So, do you have anything else you would like to share with us, any of your stories or…? CM: [laughs] Uhm, [pause] I was saying to my my partner we‟ve been together about 23 years now. She says „what are you going to say this morning, when they interview? [laughs] You‟re not going to say anything you‟re not supposed to are you, what are you gonna talk about?‟ uhm, Page 14 �actually we‟ve covered a whole lot of ground. Uhm. Nothing comes to my mind, although I am more than happy to share anything else that you can think of. KR: Uhm, do you guys have any more questions? SP: I‟m out of questions. CM: out of questions? KR: Alrighty, well uhm thank you so much. CM: Absolutely! KR: This concludes the oral history. CM: Absolutely! KR: Yep, Thank you, for your time and also thanks to Grand Valley for putting on this program. CM: Yes. Absolutely. Yes, absolutely that also. Should I be…should I sign this as far as a release form… END OF INTERVIEW Page 15 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b16f9b03fcbc64efb7da5844ef188e4c.mp3 bfe1209a2739b884102ec073862bb5dc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Mader_Cynthia Title A name given to the resource Cynthia Mader audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mader, Cynthia Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Rosema, Kailey Pratt, Stephen Immekus, Erica Description An account of the resource Cynthia Mader is an outstanding woman who is an advocate for the advancement of civil rights for the LGBTQ community in the West Michigan area, as well as a professor in Grand Valley State University's College of Education. Recently, Cynthia was awarded the Lifetime Achievement Award from the Women's Commission, March 13th, 2012. Cynthia's involvement for social justice led her to be the First Board of Directors within the Lesbian and Gay Community Network Incorporated, in which she organized Grand Rapids' first pride celebration, and fought with local public administration offices for the passing of laws that banned sexual orientation discrimination Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Homophobia Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-13 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3c505f6863f004afd609f583bd32caa1.pdf 5bb9124d21c881e7eacf778241323098 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Jacqueline Decker Interviewer(s): Emma Jack Supervising Faculty: Danielle Lake Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: October 26, 2011 Runtime: 01:08:05 Biography and Description Born March, 3rd 1959 to parents Richard and Eve Holland. Youngest of three children with brothers Gary and Terry. Grew up in Grand Rapids, graduating from Crestwood high school. She then continued her education at Central Michigan University with a major in English and a minor in psychology. Ran cross country and track and field on the varsity teams. Met her husband (now of 30 years), Steven Decker in the dorms on campus in her freshman year, his sophomore year. Was married at age 22 and moved to Fremont, Michigan following her husband’s job at Gerber, while being a sports journalist for the Grand Rapids press. After several years she felt a calling to return to school and become a teacher. On July 18th, 1989, her first [adopted] child Zachary Michael was born. She and her family then moved to Rockford to start her new job as a teacher. On July 22, 1991, her second [adopted] child Andrea Lin was born. On August 16th, 1992 her last [biological] child Samantha Louise was born. She has been an English teacher at Rockford High School for 20+ years. She has also provided a home for several pugs over the years, those now being Molly (8 years old) and Crissy (11 years old). Transcript JACK: Hi, my name is Emma Jack and I’m here today with: Brooke Davis, Brittany Renninger, Kevin, Samantha Decker; and we are going to be speaking with Jackie Dekker today at GVSU. We are here today to talk about your experiences with education in west Michigan. DECKER: How are you today? JACK: I’m great, how are you? DECKER: I’m great, thanks JACK: So tell us a little bit about yourself and your background. Page 1 �DECKER: My name is Jackie Decker I was born in Blodgett Hospital in East Grand Rapids on 3/2/59. My parents were college sweethearts form Comstock park, I have two brothers one 9 years older, one 5 years older, from Comstock park and Byron center respectively. JACK: What was it like to grow up in west Michigan? DECKER: It was a typical 60’s lifestyle. Two parent homes and my elementary was just a neighborhood school until 4th grade and then a bunch of kids were bused in. 456 grade were an integrated school. Middle school was typical only two families that weren’t Caucasian. One family was black, and one family was Asian. I went to Creston high school, which was pretty much considered an inner city high school, which was 2/3 of the neighborhood. JACK:x What made you decide to stay in west Michigan? DECKER: I didn’t think I would because Grand Rapids was a dying town when growing up, and I wanted to move as far away as possible. But once your from west Michigan its hard to get away. I currently live in Rockford with surprisingly a lot of my classmates from Creston High school. I believe a lot of people like west Michigan not only for the lakes, which are great. It has changed a lot since the 50’s 60’s lifestyles but the same family values that I grew to appreciate are still intertwined in society. JACK:x How would you describe your own identity? If you were to describe yourself to someone else how would you describe yourself? DECKER: I grew up congregational, I now go to a Methodist church, but I could probably go to any Christian church and feel good about myself while doing so. I have strong family values, I like it when people get married and have children and family life. I wouldn’t discriminate against people who don’t live that way but I still have some of those same strong family values. Very strong work ethic put forth the very best effort I can. Its still surprising that some people can get away with what they can by doing so little work. JACK: How would you describe your identity in the school system? DECKER: Probably in the same way. I usually don’t leave the school until about 4:30 compared to some others who take off right after class, etc. They know that I participate in students’ athletic events, speaking at special events (fellowship Christian athletes). I have the gay/straight association in my classes. Most kids would say that I’m a very challenging teacher because I make them work hard but at the same time they would consider it a safe haven. JACK: What do you teach? DECKER: I teach honors English 10 and regular English 11. JACK: Can you explain a little more about the fellowship Christian athletes? DECKER: It’s not always athletes; we have a huge contingent of students in the school who really go to a Baptist church. A huge mega Baptist church, and a lot of them start and have gotten involved in that. They get together pray. We get together talk and ask how I got into teaching, and I felt led to go into Page 2 �teaching. They meet on wed and I have two groups of kids that meet in my room on Mondays. On Fridays about 20 kids come in and sing praise songs. JACK: So you really have open doors to any organization. DECKER: Absolutely. JACK: Would there be any kind of organization you’d keep your door closed to? DECKER: The anime club, because I don’t know how to draw hahaha just kidding JACK: Was there a particular moment either growing up or in your adult hood where you felt you were treated differently because of your profession or your gender? DECKER: I would say even though there are more female teachers in our school system at Rockford it is a male dominated school system. The principal at my building is a female, and most buildings have female in some capacity in a leader figure. JACK: How would you describe the differences between men and women in the school system? DECKER: Men get away with so much more than women. If I swore at children or made a racist joke I would get in a lot more trouble than a guy would get in trouble for. JACK: Did your school system have a male superintendent or a higher up male personnel? DECKER: We never had a female in any of those higher positions, we have a superintendent and two assistant superintendents, both male. People are almost fearful to speak out a lot with these issues. JACK: So its something that has been noticed in your community? DECKER: Our school board is eclectic. But any time someone runs for the school board they all say they’re going to make changes, but they just ultimately do what the superintendents want them to do. JACK: Do you feel like that inhibits you from doing the things you want to do in your classroom? DECKER: It doesn’t inhibit me from doing things within my classroom for the most part. I’m not a buddybuddy with the principal. Him and the other teachers know what I stand for and they know I’m doing a good job so they leave me alone. I’m in a hallway with only one other teacher. JACK: I know your in a system where all the other English teachers are all male, do you feel like that inhibits you from doing the things that you wish you could do, do you feel intimidated? DECKER: No not really. They’re big sci-fi fans so they want to read all these sci-fi books, but I’m not afraid of them at all. This past year some of them honored me for teaching and said I really deserved it. In there own way they have there own little boys club too. JACK: But they respect you? DECKER: Absolutely, I don’t have that at all from any of the men in our department. Page 3 �JACK: Is it true that you did not start your career in education? DECKER: Nope I started my career as a sports reporter for the Grand Rapids press covering high school sports. JACK: What do you think led you to become a teacher from that? DECKER: I just got a feeling that god wanted me to be working with high school students in a different way. When I was in high school I didn’t like the other students because I had brothers that were much older and parents who were much older. I thought they were kind of stupid and did dumb things. I kind of grew up old. I felt that there was need there and this will be my 22nd year. JACK: Were there people in your life that encouraged you to think about the treatment of diverse individuals in society? DECKER: I had an uncle who he really had a negative view of people that were diverse. He said a derogatory statement at the table, and I ended up standing up and leaving because I was really mad. He had a very negative view of blacks. I had a great 5th and 6th grade teacher, he really made an impact on me on how these people are just different than I am with really no difference. About 5 years after i moved onto high school he became a defense attorney in grand rapids and defended the people who couldn’t get anyone else to defend them, he really changed the way I look at people. JACK: Have you kept in contact with him? DECKER: I used to seem him at road races (we were both runners.) I haven’t seen him in a long while, but every now and then there’ll be case where nobody wants it and he’ll swoop in and take it on. He is a champion for the underdogs and different races. He really changed my life. JACK: Would you say he’s a big impact on how you treat students today? DECKER: I would say so. Just the way he looked at people, I look at people differently because of that. My parents had prejudices, but they didn’t have mean prejudices, they just had prejudices born on ignorance and I wouldn’t say that they were like my uncle. But they were prejudice. One young man asked me out on a date that happened to be black, and I said it wasn’t a very good idea because of the fact that neither of our parents were going to think that it was a good idea. But I would say that Mr. Dorian? Changed my view of things. JACK: Is it difficult for you now to come into a society where everything is so mixed and you have to be accepting? DECKER: No. Teaching has been a great place for me to be. I see all different types of students that really open my eyes to how diverse people can be. I have grown to be accepting of these students, because they’re great kids. I have a daughter (not Sam) that came home a month or so ago with a pierced eyebrow and now kids are piercing their ears, and various other facial parts. We are adoptive parents. Our son was adopted when he was 2 days old from Tacoma Washington. He’s Caucasian. Our daughter Andrea’s birth mom is 100% Vietnamese, and she was a student at Calvin college. She gave birth to Page 4 �Andrea and now she is a part of our family. My mom lost a brother, he was in a control tower on a naval vessel, and a kamikaze hit the control tower so she had a total distrust of people who were Asian. In 9th grade my dad had surgery and his doctor who saved his life was Asian. I think that was all healing and when our daughter Andrea was born we asked “are you going to be able to love an Asian child?” and she said this may be really good for me. Unfortunately she only lived to when Andrea was 2 and Sam was 1. She didn’t get a chance to really meet them. I’m very accepting to everyone. I’ll admit that some people who make decision like gauging out their ears I think to myself “woa, can you sew that back together?” But overall I have to be very accepting with the position that I’m in. (starting at minute 14)-----and Sam was one so…she didn’t get a chance but I am very accepting of—but, I ya know, people have big holes in their ears I admit and it’s like, woah, can you cut that thing off and sew it back together? (laughs) But I have to be very accepting in the position that I am in. JACK: Would you say that there are still some teachers today even in your school system that are not very accepting of those students? DECKER: Absolutely. And the kids know. The kids know who cares about them and who’s accepting and not and I would say one of the issues, one of the issues that is still fairly big, probably, is kids in Rockford who are gay. You know? And kids—most of them just try to fly under the radar. They just—I mean I, ya know, fly under the radar. And we have the Gay, Straight Association and stuff like that, but there’s only about seven kids who go to that. You know, not that many kids go but they find acceptance there—but, ya know, I—and I know that, you know, there are a lot of jokes made and things like that and I always feel for those kids. JACK: Do you feel that their studies suffer because--? DECKER: Oh yeah, I’m sure they—they’re always just trying very hard not to be gay—to show that they’re gay. JACK: So you think that there is a lot of stress there that is taking away from what they could be because they’re just trying not to be something that society doesn’t want them to be? DECKER: They don’t want to be noticed. They really don’t want to be noticed. So I would say yeah, absolutely that’s stressful. They don’t want to go to school—and, and these aren’t even the kids who have identifies themselves as gay. They are just, just trying to get out of there as quietly as possible. And then there are other kids that are really embraced—the king, they boy who was just nominated homecoming king is gay. And a couple years ago—a couple years was? Yeah. So it’s not like the student body is not accepting. The student body is fairly accepting—you know, overall—I think they’re even more worried about some of the teachers not being accepting. It’s still West Michigan, conservative West Michigan. So yeah—but the student body will vote for 12 guys [for homecoming court] and pick the guy who is gay for their king and he’s pretty accepting. JACK: Do, like, some of the teachers openly, like, make statements that are derogatory to them? --or so they know which—or is it making the student uncomfortable if they were in their class? Page 5 �DECKER: I—I think people will try to be very politically correct—I think they just let kids say things that, you know I would say, “hey, don’t say that.” Um…um and you know, I think that’s more—I think that kids, um, it’s not that teachers necessarily will say things, um, ‘cause they’ve been trained not to say anything that’s not politically correct. But I think they’ll let the kids get away with things. JACK: Do you feel that you are trying to stand up for the kids because some teachers won’t? Like you said, some teachers will allow students to say things or let students get away with things, but do you feel that you try to go out of your way to help these students because your faculty members don’t? DECKER: Probably—it’s funny that, you know, that I’m going to talk at an FCA, but then you’ve got GSA, and in—in some ways—and I’m—I’m thinking that I might talk to the FCA about—Fellowship of Christian athletes—about hey, love everybody. You know, don’t just love the kids who go to your church, and that’s easy to do, but to love everybody, you know. Really, how are you reaching out to the handicap kids in our building? We had a girl last year who was blind—and I don’t think there were very many people who even said hi to her and it’s like, you know she was a really really smart girl and very nice and I just think that, um, I just want—I just think—I guess I’ve always just kind of loved people and—and want them to feel safe. I think that’s the best way to put it. JACK: Have you experienced things that—where there has been, say, a specific situation where there has been discrimination against a student that you have been witness to? DECKER: Particularly, I don’t think so. I haven’t, like, seen anybody get beaten up. I haven’t seen anybody, um—we are a—at Rockford High School, I brought something with me that said that…we have 1881 white kids in nine through twelve. We have 40 Hispanic, 39 black or African American, 21 Asian, three American Indian-Alaskan, and then I think we have 2 Hawaiian or Pacific Island. So it’s really a white school and I—I haven’t seen, like, any of the white kids picking on the black kids or the Hispanic kids…but over the course of the years I think the kids have become more politically correct too—I haven’t seen that, haven’t necessarily seen anyone pick on anyone who is gay, or Asian, or anything else like that—haven’t seen anyone pick on anything like that but you know, I just—I want to make sure that my room is a pace where anyone can come in and feel safe. So I haven’t seen any particular incidents where kids were like, you know, I mean like I said, we have a king who is gay—people aren’t going to boo.—they’re not going to boo or anything they’re very polite…it’s a polite community. JACK: So would you say that’s changed over the years? We’ve become—that our society has become more tolerant towards them? DECKER: Oh yeah—you’re generation is so much more tolerant than ten years ago or twenty years ago when I first started teaching—I’m more tolerant. I would’ve let those jokes go twenty years ago, I admit it. And you know—and my family they used to make—there used to be, like, racial jokes or stuff like that and I would—I—it’s only as an adult and the more I’ve worked in the school system that I’ve become more open minded myself, you know? But I don’t know, your generation’s a whole lot different than my generation was—and I went to a school that was integrated…but there were fights sometimes and that—there wasn’t a lack of safety but it wasn’t—there was always a lack of ignorance. I don’t think you’re so ignorant of each other anymore. And I push not being ignorant of each other—okay so it’s like, Page 6 �so, so that person’s black? He’s got more pigment—we’re always trying to get tan (laughs) I mean really? Why does this matter? You know? So, I guess I think your generation is a ton more tolerant. I’ve seen a lot of change—Rockford when I first started was class size of about 350. And my *first+ daughter’s class was 680. I think this year we only have 600, but, you know, when you go from 350 who all grow up on farms around Rockford and the few people who live in downtown Rockford, um, and then all-asudden you start bringing in this diversity of economics …we have some really really rich people there and some really really poor people and we have a lot of people in the middle—we have school of choice—we just have to be very flexible. JACK: Do you think that a lot of the different racial or ethnic groups kind of clump together? Is there a lot of mixture with the students? DECKER: There’s a lot of mixture—they don’t have a choice. There are only 39 black students in the school? They can’t all just hang out with black kids. I mean, truly, they don’t—and Hispanic—I’m thinking really? We have 4000—you can’t tell! Everybody mixes. I mean my one daughter’s Asian—she really grew up white. You know it wasn’t like there was a bunch of Asian kids to hang out. So I think they have no choice—they have to—when—as I was telling my friend when we had dinner, kids who come in who are black, if they come in from outside the community, they may act like they’re inner-city for about a year and then they’re Rockford. Everybody just mixes…I don’t think that’s the big deal. It used to be a big deal but it’s not a big deal anymore. JACK: What kinds of organizations are available for kids at Rockford that really promote diversity within the student body? DECKER: We have a diversity club, but I don’t know if it’s met at all this year. Then I said, we have GSA, Gay-Straight Association?—or I think its Alliance—I think that’s what it is. Um…and then like I said, the anime club which sometimes will get, like, your skaters and people like that—but, um, I mean— they’re—and we have FCA and we have chess club and eco club and stuff like that so there are a lot of different clubs—but as far as diversity we just have the one diversity club. So…there isn’t a lot—what else is out there that’s available. JACK: Do you think it’s important for students to really, kind of up that? Or make it better? DECKER: You know, I think that would be probably helpful. I think—umm—the entire student body has been trained with guest speakers and things over the years to kind of look at each other as oh, yeah we’re just all equal. We do a good job of bringing in guest speakers. JACK: I have heard that at Rockford you have to be either really good at sports or really good-looking or really good in the arts or music or something to kind of… I guess, get along there and if you don’t have one of those, you’re going to have a tough time at Rockford. Would you say that that is true? Would you say that it was true and it’s changing now? Do you have any opinion on that subject? DECKER: I think it’s changing now…when you mention sports…or, like we have band…a lot of band kids hang with band kids and a lot of choir people hang with choir people. Um—I think it’s changed a lot though over the years…um I think if kids spend time doing those things in which they have to be good Page 7 �at—it’s just they spend so much time with those people that they become their friends but I think it—I think there’s a pretty decent mix—I don’t think people are necessarily prejudice. When I put groups together I always try to put people of different—you know, groups together but I don’t think it’s as…mmm…. Let’s see but I’m not in it, I’m not in a click, I don’t have to worry about “clicky-ness”. I don’t notice that so much…you may know more about that than I do JACK: How has your faith influenced the way you think about diversity and the way your present yourself in situations? DECKER: Um, you know, what I think that my faith has a lot to do with it because I just grew up when, you know, “Jesus love the little children” everybody, you know, we’re supposed to love each other and do unto others as you would have others do unto you and so i think my faith has a lot to do with it. Not to say that people who don’t have faith wouldn’t have the same attitudes towards people. I think sometimes if kids realize, you know, I’m a Christian, sometimes I think people might go, “oh, well she’s going to be like, judgmental” and things like that and I’m not and then it takes them by surprise and they’re glad about that. And so then I think we get along quite well. JACK: Can you tell us more about your schooling when you were younger and maybe about things that you came across with diversity? DECKER: Well, I went to Aberdine Elementary School …um which was three blocks from my house and as I said, it was just a neighborhood school until fourth grade they—um many kids were bused in—I’m not even sure where they were bused in from, but somewhere else in Grand Rapids. Um, and it was a mixture, it wasn’t just…um…busing in black kids, but it was to integrate the school system and the law said integrate the school system and um, so—you know when you’re a little kid? And kids are kids are kids, you know? You’re not even like, “oh my gosh” you know, it’s not that big of a deal, it’s more what your parents say that you start to notice things. But, um, you know, so I think growing up in that elementary and then—and I went to a junior high that was back to being a neighborhood school, you know, and there was the one Asian family and they were really smart, and there was the one black family. And then we went to the high school and that was very integrated. So, I think that I just realized—and I went on to college and was on teams, you know, I was on track in high school and in middle school and then in college I was on sport—I was on track and cross country and track was a very integrated sport. So, I think I just kind of grew up knowing that, you know—you know we’re all just athletes at that point. So—I don’t think I—but I, you know, there are still a lot of people who still have prejudices and things like that. JACK: Was there anything that stands out to you—I don’t know if you remember—in like, when you were growing up in like, elementary school, you said that you went to a, um, integrated school—was there any, um, like with the adults, like the teachers there, did they have any, like, that they were against it? Being—? DECKER: I think my fourth grade teacher she was – she did not have good control of the unique classroom that we had, she probably had decent control over, you know, when it was all just this whiteneighborhood kids and things like that. When you bring in a different culture, she did not have—she did Page 8 �not have good control over that. But then that fifth and sixth grade teacher that I had—he was a champion for the people—and I know our class was—had some integration in it and so I would say that his influence probably filtered down to some of the other teachers. But sure, there were some teachers who didn’t want to be teaching at an inner-city school. So, Aberdine was one of the farther north elementary schools, and so I think that was a big shock for them and hard to control. In high school, I don’t remember…I mean I do remember a couple fights between kids, but I don’t think the teachers…I don’t remember anything. And we had—we had more------------ non-Caucasian teachers when I graduated in 77 at Creston. We have, we don't have any non-white teachers at Rockford that I can think of in the whole system. We have a couple of security guards who are non-white and we have a pool manager who is non-white. And every teacher in the system, that I can think of is white. That says something. JACK: Is that including like the school board and superintendent and everybody? DECKER: Absolutely. JACK: Wow. Do you think that has an effect on the students? DECKER: Absolutely, I think, you know, if I was black and the only people I ever saw at the building were white I think that would make me have to be somewhat white because I don't have anyone from my culture. Although we bring in speaker and stuff we still don't understand each other's cultures so when people come into our school they have to basically become white. JACK: Do you think it would be good for you school system to bring in some diverse teachers? DECKER: Yeah, there's got to be someone who has applied for a position in Rockford, who isn't white, who maybe is in a wheelchair or something you know so that people can say that people who have handicaps are able to have positions and someone who is um Asian. I mean when I was in high school we had some foreign teachers who were in there who didn't quite speak English the same way we did. And I'm just amazed that there is not some rule that says you have to have some diversity. JACK: With who's running the school system now do you think that's going to change? DECKER: If somebody different was running it? JACK: With who you have now. DECKER: O, no, I don't think so. I don't think there will be a push for that. And right now there is a hiring freeze for the most part so no one is hiring anybody. I was hired in with about 30 people in 1991 and we were all white. and... JACK: So even your, I didn't mean to interrupt sorry, your foreign language teachers, they're not like, or your Spanish teachers, they're not like Hispanic or anything like that even? DECKER: No, we do have a Hispanic teacher at our building, Mrs. Shordsma, you know who she is? no, no, no, she teaches social studies. And she was the one who had started up the diversity club, and she is the only Hispanic in our building. Page 9 �JACK: Well we have a Japanese teacher DECKER: O yeah if forgot about her, she teaches English. She struggles but, she's not very good with English but she's a great Japanese teacher. I forgot about Meg. Yeah, other than that but, our German Teacher, he's not German, none of our Spanish teachers are Spanish, the French teachers, they're not French and they are very white. Women, for the most part. JACK: That's really interesting, like for me where I went to school we had at least two out of the three Spanish teachers were Hispanic, they knew the language very fluently. And not to say that your teachers don't know the language fluently. DECKER: Well they don't know it in the same way. JACK: Right, but and the culture. DECKER: Well they can talk about the culture but... JACK: They don't know it. DECKER: They don't know the culture. They've never lived the culture. JACK: Do you think that maybe the teachers and the faculty should kind of join together to bring more diversity, or do you think that it's kind of between a rock and a hard place in that situation? DECKER: We're always, you know, and often we've had meetings that we've had to go to that were about diversity. That's just, well look at us you know, we look around there, if we get the whole staff together from the district, there are probably about 500 teachers, and they're all for the most part like I said, a bunch of white people. Who, most of whom probably grew up in West Michigan. So, um, it would be nice to have diversity but probably, I mean truthfully nobody would push for that. JACK: That's very interesting. DECKER: uh huh JACK: Teaching for the past twenty years have you witnessed changes in diversity being the amount of it within the school and the amount of it becoming more prominent? DECKER: I think school of choice is going to continue to impact a lot of schools. I think Rockford will get more and more diverse, um, I don't want to say clientele which sounds kind of weird, um, but I don't think we will ever, I don't think our district will ever be diverse like Kentwood, or the Forest Hills Northern schools, when, when, people move in from foreign countries like Bosnia and things like that, they are not going to pick Rockford. We don't have the, um, we don't have the manpower to help them learn the language. We have a Spanish Immersion class that started in Kindergarten and now, I think, those kids are up to 8th grade. But those are still white kids learning Spanish. And there actually might be a couple of Hispanic teachers in there. But see I'm not in elementary school, so I haven't seen it. I, I think that school choice makes a difference, but I don't think that we are ever going to become diverse. Like even, my brother's at Comstock Park high school, they have become, that used to be just a middle Page 10 �class white school system. And with the influx of students who are living on Alpine like in York Creek or something like that said it's very diversified, I have a friend I met with tonight that teaches at Sacred Heart Elementary she says that her population went from mostly middle class white people to Hispanic, because the neighborhoods have changed. I don't see that happening at Rockford. I say, that if you talk to me 10 years from now and I'll say we have 59 black students, maybe more, but not, not, it will not become a diverse school system. So, not for a while, I'm not quite sure why maybe there is not jobs out there or something. JACK: Why would people choose Rockford as a school choice? DECKER: Great education. I mean, I talked to somebody last week and he said that you know, we ,we did not, my wife and I were not in private education, we were pretty eerie about putting our kids into a school system and he said I have no complaints with Rockford, the teachers all care about kids and they want them to have a good education so that's why people would want to move to Rockford so I'm just surprised that more people don't come North to Rockford, they just don't. JACK: Do you think it's, um, people aren't choosing that because education isn't as important to people as maybe other things as like sports and stuff like that? DECKER: Well it's a huge sports school though, I mean we have, you know, we joke about how many state championships we've won over the years and things like that. Um, I think that maybe people are afraid maybe that if they come to Rockford they won't be accepted. And I think that, you know, we don't have any choice I mean you're going to accept people because you do. That's just the way the world is, it's a, you know it's a very accepting world so I think maybe that's the reason, a lot of people at Rockford actually has a little bit of a bad reputation because we are so good in sports, kind of like Grand Valley, and um, know that our sports teams, you know everybody is successful and things like that. Um, but I think that people are afraid of the lack of acceptance, but, I don't think, It's harder I think for kids who are poorer and for kids who are of a different race. At Rockford. JACK: Do you think Rockford prepares like most of your seniors who are going off to college, do you think that your school prepares them for the amount of diversity that they are going to experience in college or do you think that? DECKER: I think we try but I don't think we can do that, I mean, my daughter when she left Rockford and went to Michigan State, she said all these Asian people were trying to say hi to her and make conversation with her. Well she couldn't do that because well, you know she speaks English. But she never said it was a shock for her, and Michigan State is a lot more diverse than Grand Valley is, Grand Valley's a lot like Rockford. Um, Michigan State is really diverse but I don't think she's ever said that she's had any problem with anybody of different race. So I don't think, I think she was prepared; we do the best that we can with what we have. JACK: Have there been any landmark events that have changed your opinion dealing with diversity? DECKER: You know, um, landmark as in my own classroom or landmark like something that happened in the nation? Page 11 �JACK: Basically anything that you, I know you discussed more of your family when you were younger but in the nation or... DECKER: You know, landmark events that kind of changed my opinions, really, um, would be the "I have a dream" speech by Dr. Martin Luther King I was probably 8 or 9 at the time, that made quite an impression on me, um, in my classroom I think just, you know, seeing, seeing that it doesn't matter what kids look like they're still kids, um, I think that's made a huge difference in my life. But, as far as like something, you know like, getting or having a black president or something like that will you know, I'm like, it's about time. You know, are you kidding me, you know, slavery ended in 1860s so you know, um, I guess that, you know, the big things for me would have been like my teacher and Dr. Martin Luther King's speech. JACK: Do you have any students that in particular stood out to you or I know over the years you said that your own children have changed your views on teaching, or, how you deal with students in the classroom, anything like that? DECKER: um not necessarily just... Just you know, like I can remember this one guy he had hair longer than I ever dreamed of having and there all the boys were wearing their hair short. I just remember thinking, I mean that changed my way of looking at people with long hair, guys with long hair. And having a student, you know say, you know my dreams for my future are this and knowing that this kid is one of those gay kids who's just trying to slide under the radar so he's making up what he thought I would want to hear, but you know that makes, that changes the way I feel about kids and I just think you know, just being with kids all the time. As I said, kids are kids are kids and I felt that way around the world; people are people are people nobody's my enemy necessarily, um, you know just because they come from a different country doesn't mean they're my enemy, their government might be an enemy of my government but people in Afghanistan are not my enemies. JACK: Would you say your views are constantly changing or your... DECKER: They're improving. JACK: Yeah. DECKER: Growing, yes, I have a lot of years left hopefully to grow but I'm getting better and better. Like I said, when I first started teaching I probably have some of those same prejudices and things like that and now I'm not afraid to say to kids, hey you know, why, you know that doesn't fly here. We don't talk like that, or you need to apologize or you're not going to act that way. And it's not o.k. that it's o.k. with you and him between you to say those kinds of things, it's not o.k. with me. You know, but I say it in a nice way. You know, instead of, I mean, maybe years ago I would have said it in a meaner way, but now I say it in a very nice way. JACK: You said that there were people in your family that used to be prejudice towards other people, have you seen them change at all? DECKER: Um, one of my brothers would probably fly a Confederate flag if he could. Um, but, you know and it's funny because my mother in law, I wouldn't say she's a prejudice person but she still refers to Page 12 �people that are black as colored. And you know she just never evolved with the times. I had a student last year though, her dad is black and her mom was white and this girl's quite, she's quite white actually and she said I would identify with black and would you want to be called African American and she said no, I'm not African American, I'm an American; a black American and I don't want to be called African American which has been really interesting. But as far as family members go I don't think really, I mean, besides this one brother of mine and I think he's had to evolve, um, he still will say things but not in the same way that he used to because he's had to become more politically correct. My other brother, he's a counselor and he's, he's, he's fairly open minded so, I think that um prejudices, there still are more prejudices toward gender identity and things like that, but I don't anybody would be so rude to in the family to say things. JACK: I know in education a lot of times teachers have to deal with parents, has there been any issues with parents or have you connected with any parents over diversity in school? DECKER: I, um, I think most parents know, I, I, I, a good thing. They know that um, it's a safe place to be, in my room and things like that. So I haven't had to deal with that, um, in a negative way. Just in a positive way. But mostly everybody's just like well thanks for making them work really hard and that type of thing. JACK: Have you had any students come to you and thank you for what you've done and opening your doors and things like that? DECKER: Oh yeah, this one girl gives me a hug like every single day. (Laughing) Oh hi Mrs. Decker. This one junior that I had last year, she is part of GSA, and I am like your fine its great your fine and I think that that group it’s kind of weird for me to connect with that group not because I’m prejudice or anything like that just because you know I am not the teacher in charge of that group but I think that group and the kids in that group have connected with me a lot, and it is like I said this one girl gives me a hug every day and hangs around my room and stuff like that. But I have kids who will come in my room and just eat at lunch. I mean because they don’t have anywhere else to go and I am like ok yeah know come on in my room and eat and sit there. And yeah know this year I don’t, but I have had like foreign exchange students who will just hang out until they got a group they could meet and things like that. So, I think that they just know I am a friend, and I am a teacher, and even though I work them really hard. Most kids I tell them they are not going to like me when they have me, but the year after they have me they will like me. But no, I think most kids know I am very safe. I guess the only prejudice I have is that they are not allowed to wear Western Michigan stuff in my classroom. It was college day today because it is our spirit week, and this one girl walks by and says Mrs. Decker I almost wore my Western Michigan shirt just to bug you. I went to Central and Grand Valley. But no, I think that you know I do have kids that come to me and kids feel comfortable with me. And I like I said I but a GSA sign up and I put and FCA sign up if I had to and a diversity club sign up, so I just think everyone feels pretty comfortable. But, I don’t know that that was true twenty years ago. So, I think I have changed. JACK: I know that you mentioned that you have adopted children. What led you to adoption? Page 13 �DECKER: Umm…You know even when I was little I think that in the back of my mind I thought I would do that. I thought I was going to grow up and be a missionary or something like that. But some of those countries have really big bugs. And that’s the truth. But you know when my husband and I weren’t able to have children we had no problem; we wanted to have children so we were willing to adopt. But I’ll have to say that before our son was born and he is twenty- two the doctor who had been my OBGYN person moved out to Wautoma, Washington and she called us with a possible adoption, and the child was going to be black. And I said we can’t do that. And she said I am so surprised I thought you could love any child. I said I could love any child but we were living in Newaygo we weren’t living in Grand Rapids. We were living in Newaygo, Michigan and I don’t think that child in Newaygo, Michigan in this day and age can be accepted. I said I will not do this to a child, and at this point in time we had no plans to move anywhere else. My husband worked at Gerber in Fremont and I was a sports reporter covering sports in that area and we had no plans to move. So, then I said no I won’t adopt that child just because it won’t be good for that child. Now living in Grand Rapids and Rockford it would not have been a problem at all. Then, when our daughter when she was going to be born and we were chosen to be her birth parents we went through Bethany Christian Services for Andrea. I said the only person who we need to call and say is this ok is my mom. I said can you love this Asian child or are you going to reject this Asian child. So we just wanted to have children and things like that. And race would not have made any difference, but location made a difference. We had a pretty honest feel for that situation; there were no black kids in Newaygo. So, being a black child at that time was not going to be well received. So, we just knew that. JACK: Have you felt any discrimination toward your adopted child Andrea? Is that… DECKER: You know I did not. I did not. And I had known about it till years later that a parent said did you know a student called her a derogatory term. And she never told me that. She was always very good at handling her things and things like that. And I said no. So then I asked her about that and I said well what happened with this; this like last year and what happened and she said yeah so and so called me a spic, and I said she didn’t even get her derogatory term correct you’re not Hispanic yeah know. That’s a derogatory term for someone who is Hispanic and that. So I said well what was your reaction and she said well I just decided that that person wasn’t really a friend. Then, a couple years later I found out that there was a little bit more to it than that because she wrote a paper when she was a senior and I said you never told me any of this. And so there was not necessarily that kind of terminology and it was some other things like that, but she was always good at handling that. But I think she pretty much grew up white. Yeah. And not because we didn’t like when the girls were little I put them in summer class for a week and they learned Vietnamese. Do you remember that at all? JACK: No DECKER: No. (Laughter) Andrea learned the Vietnamese, and she has connected in the last years with her birth mom. Who lives in um Texas and she a half sister and two half brothers, and she met the half sister this summer that is fifteen years old and things like that. But their white too because their birth mom was adopted straight out of Tycoon and was raised in the US by a white, English School teacher. So, she was raised pretty white too. Not like we tried to take her to Buddhist temples and things like Page 14 �that. Yeah know we never did anything like that. And our son is Caucasian. So, um but I don’t think she felt really prejudice against do you? You’d no better than I do. JACK: She said she feels like a white person. DECKER: Absolutely I am sure she feels like a white person; she grew up very white. JACK: And she went to Michigan State? DECKER: She is at Michigan State. JACK: She is. DECKER: And her dorm; her first dorm was totally integrated. People from everywhere. But I don’t think she met many people. I think pretty much her roommate was dad was white mom was black they got along great and things like that. I think she mixes well with various races. But she is still probably hanging out with white people because she is living with white people. So. Is there anything else? JACK: Where do you think the members of the diverse student body have made the most progress in the school system? DECKER: I would probably have to say acceptance. Right. It is interesting, we used to stereotype somebody, if you’re this color your good at this sport or that sport or something like that. And I just think that it’s a huge mix and everybody just mixes in at Rockford and I think just that just being accepted is where we have made the most progress. JACK: Where do you think the least amount of progress has been made? As far as you said that most gay kids still try to fly under the radar. DECKER: Yeah I think that is where the least progress has been made. For somebody who is a different gender identity. Racial isn’t a big deal, but genderism is a deal. JACK: So you would say this community has become a lot more tolerant. I don’t know if you would go as far as saying that don’t mind but they like a gay or lesbian population or something like that. So, why would you say that these students are still just trying to get out of there without being noticed? DECKER: I think it’s a societal thing. I think it’s still that society is not accepting or the different and I don’t think it is so much the students. We have had some kids that are openly gay, who were incredibly popular. So, I don’t think it’s the students so much, it’s a societal thing. I don’t think you are going to get beaten up in the bathroom because he’s gay or she is gay. And I would say it is probably the guys who are gayer that slide under the radar and the girls don’t really care. It is hard to know, girls are friendly with each other anyways, I mean it’s not just like you will see someone who is just best friends hanging out or putting their arm around each other. So I don’t think it is as noticeable with girls as it is with guys. Looking at it is a societal thing. JACK: Would you say that that is less in Michigan? You know compared to a different state like California, or Chicago. You don’t think that that would have much of an issue as in west Michigan? Page 15 �DECKER: I would say I think it is huge in west Michigan. It’s just a real conservative this side of the state. Which is good and which is bad. But it is changing, because we are forced to change. I would say your generation changes the most because of the media influence. With the media it is no big deal. The shows that are on today that you watch would have been unheard of when I was growing up. The people, the people you see living together and you see people who are actually gay or are pretending to be gay you see that a lot. And so I just think that your generation is changing things. JACK: In a good way? DECKER: I think it is a great way. Absolutely. People are People and People. Somewhere I learned along the line that judging is not good. I am not going to be judging someone because of who there are. I really don’t try to judge people because of their gender identity or something like that. I try not to. And yeah I still want people to have some of my same conservative views, but as far as…people are meant to be loved. JACK: So you don’t think bullying is a problem in Rockford or west Michigan at all? At some schools they bullying this huge thing; I never really saw it at my high school. DECKER: I don’t think so. I mean I have never had someone come to me and say I have been bullied or anything. I mean I don’t think so. I don’t even think when we have a three or four classrooms with special education kids and I don’t think those kids are bullied. They are just maybe left alone. But I don’t think they are bullied. I don’t think kids are mean to them. I think overall we are a pretty nice society. JACK: What kinds of changes do you hope to see in the future? DECKER: Well I would like to see more diversity as far as staff. Uh, I think that’d be great, you know, I would feel really uncomfortable if I like went to a school and everyone was not my race; you know it would be nice to have somebody, a secretary, somebody in the counseling office, somebody, you know, coaching; I think I think all the coaches are white, even, even all the football coaches, the basketball coaches, you know, you name it, whatever we have, everybody the custodians, nothing that’s all pretty homogenized. So, I think it would be nice to change; bring some people in that are qualified. See somebody, see a teacher in a wheelchair, you know, and um we had somebody apply one time, that’s all I remember, I don’t even think, I don’t think people even apply to Rockford sometimes; they probably think it’s a real white society. I would like to see that change. JACK: How do you see that change taking place? DECKER: Very slowly. The only way it’s going to change is if people just start, people who are more diverse than what we have just start applying and applying and applying and eventually, you know, you have got to say, “come on, these people are qualified.” I mean you can’t be turning those away. But, I think that maybe if we had somebody different in, um, the administration or something like that, um, but, I don’t know; it’s just going to change really slowly, because it’s just the way we are. I don’t think we are necessarily not hiring people who are diverse, but I think most diverse people would probably not apply at Rockford or they aren’t related to someone who is already in the system, to tell you the truth, I mean we have a lot of people – there is a lot of nepotism at Rockford, you know like an assistant Page 16 �superintendent whose son is a principal and whose wife does this and this and then they have family friends that they get in, I mean I’m not even sure how I got in… yeah, I know that I got in because the principal at one of the middle schools had gone to my high school and the principal at the high school was a teacher at my high school: they knew me and they knew me as a sports reporter. And they knew, well she was a decent sports reporter, we will get here in and it looks like a choux. So, I think that’s how I got in, I don’t know. Um I don’t know. I was one of the people hiring, or interviewing people for hiring and it was all white people. So, the only way it will change is if people start applying, and keep applying and keep applying. We had a student teacher last year, one student teacher, and I have had an assistant teacher one time that was a really nice girl. A gal who was black, and we had a student teacher last year; and I thought for sure that we would hire her. She was really great, but we are not hiring anybody. So that makes a difference too. JACK: Do you think that maybe Rockford doesn’t have the diversity in teachers and the staff at the school because the community isn’t diverse? DECKER: Probably, probably not even with school of choice we are getting a few people coming in, but the community is not very diverse either. No, I don’t think there is much diversity at all; do you? So, that’s probably it. It would be nice to see the community become a little bit more diverse; people move in. It’s a really nice small town. <pause> Do you want me to say something controversial? [Laughing] JACK: Do we want to talk about education a little bit too? Well, we discussed in class about the education system and some faults and some positives, but we were wondering maybe some of your views of the standards that you have to live up to as a teacher… and the government standards if they are different and the government influence on the system. Just elaborate. DECKER: First of all, I don’t think that some of the people in the government who are coming up with these standards really have any understanding of what it is like in the classroom. Now they have decided that the principal should evaluate each teacher twice a year. So, we have three principals in our building and we probably have about 130 teachers. So, if you look at that, and they are dividing it up, you know you get thirty, you get forty, you get forty, you get forty-five or whatever. So it means that they are trying to come into the classroom twice a year. And it sounds great, it really sounds like, woah, yeah those teachers should be evaluated twice a year; but they also have all of their other administrative positions too. And like last year I was evaluated and they are supposed to spread in out throughout the year. So, the assistant principal; I said to my husband with nine days to go, “He hasn’t been in yet, I bet he is not going to come in because he is going to be going over to an elementary and becoming a principal.” So I saw him on like a Thursday and I said, “Are you planning on coming in to my classroom at all?” and he said, “Yep, I’ll be in tomorrow. What are you doing?” And I said, “Okay, well we are going to be doing a quiz and we are going to have food because we had this one thing going on,” and then I said, “and I will be talking about Lord of the Flies with my tenth graders.” And he said, “Okay, great. I’ll come in.” So he came in and sat through the quiz, had a doughnut or something like that; and then he never stayed to see me teach. And so then, the next week; we are running out of time. We are basically to exam week. And I saw him again and said, “Are you coming back in?” and He said, “Yep, what are you Page 17 �doing tomorrow?” And I said, “Well I’m giving the test. We just finished The Things They Carried and we just finished Lord of the Flies, so I’m giving tests in those classes.” And um, he said, “Well, what about Monday?” And I said, “Well, we are going to watch the Lord of the Flies and we are going to be watching a movie on the Vietnam War because now we are at exam week. We are not going to teach two days before exams, you know. We are going to do something low key. And he goes, “Okay, well I will come in for the test.” Well, I’m not teaching during the test, I hand out the test and oh she did a great job like that (motions applause). So he evaluates me and I said, “You got this wrong.” I said, “You praised me on an area I’m not that strong at: contacting parents; because once we went an automated system where all the grades are online and the parents can see things, they basically told parents: the principal basically said, “If your kids are doing well in school, you don’t have to come to conferences.” So people quit coming, and now everybody can see everything online. The kids know, they come into class, I put grades in before school and they come into class second hour and say, “I saw my grades online.” So everybody knows everything. I am not great at connecting parents if their kids aren’t doing well. You know, if they’re failing yes, but if they are getting a D I don’t necessarily contact them because they can see it. Why do I? You know, if they are interested they can contact me, and I said “but you messed up in this one because I am very proficient on how I evaluate them in many different ways.” And I said, “So you messed up on that one.” He had the dates wrong and everything because I think he was trying to cover his tail because he was supposed to spread them out and he came in basically like five days apart. And I said that I am going to impend a letter to tell you those things that you do not have on this sheet that qualify me, you know, as a proficient teacher. And so now they are supposed to come in twice a year, one announced and one unannounced, and one of the math teachers said, “You know we are going to have to provide every one of the benchmarks that we’re meeting with the states says we are going to meet.” Rockford is an excellent system, but we don’t all have these benchmarks memorized that we are supposed to. So now, if he tells me that he is coming in on Thursday or if he doesn’t tell me, and he walks into my class and he says, “You’ll have those benchmarks on my desk by the end of the day.”, I can’t do that because I don’t- that is not how I do my lesson plans. I have these huge folders and there are things that I add every year or change every year, but I don’t necessarily qualify them by a bunch of benchmarks; but I know that when kids leave my classroom I am doing a good job because I’ve asked them: “Is there anything? What can I do differently?” I just had an email with a girl who is at Western. I said, “Mary, let me know what I could do differently to make you that much better of a student.” You know, she is a freshman, so I haven’t heard back from her; but I always ask kids, and I asked this one kid and I said, “Did I prepare you for college?” and he said “No, Mrs. Decker.” And I said, “What do you mean?” and he said, “College is so much easier than your class ever was.” So, it’s like why do, I know I am meeting those benchmarks. And there are ninety-two benchmarks where there used to be for English, and when I was at the Rockford Freshman Center, our principal told us we had to meet all ninety-two that year. We’re like, “You’re nuts!” We can’t do that. This one benchmark has like ten different areas of writing that you are supposed to cover. That would be a year’s worth of benchmarks. You know like: character analysis, autobiography and narrative, a research paper, you name it. One benchmark could take the year to cover. And there were ninety-two of them. And now they say, “Well, no. You cover those ninety-two in four years.” Well okay, but what qualifies, because my students are reading The Crucible aloud; so does that qualify as I am teaching them how to speak? Not really; but, they are learning intonation, things like that. So, I think it’s nuts. They just told us that all the M.E.A.P. Page 18 �qualifiers or the M.M.E. qualifiers: how Rockford did last year, how many of our kids were proficient last year; next year or this year when they take it because the standards have been raised this high, only 76% of them would be proficient versus 93% of them. Now if Rockford, which is a fairly consistent, stable society and community; if we can’t meet those benchmarks - how is inner-city Detroit going to meet those benchmarks? And plus, we have computers, and our teachers have computers in our classrooms; most my kids have, you know, cell phones and iPhones and stuff like that. I talked to my friend who is a teacher at Sacred Heart, and they do not even have computers in their classrooms for the teachers. And it is like if we have that and somebody up in Everett, Michigan doesn’t have that; how can they meet those benchmarks if we’re worried about them. Inner-city Grand Rapids-- You know; how can they meet those benchmarks? Yeah, it’s great, but you’re not changing the family structure; so how can you expect the teachers. We’re expected, our special ed. kids are expected to as well as our regular ed. kids on the ACT. Really? I had a girl last year with a seventy-four I.Q. She could read a paragraph and not remember a thing that she read at the end of it; and they are supposed to meet the ACT requirements or else our school is not proficient and if my special ed. students don’t get the same score that you would get on the ACT than I am going to be evaluated differently? You know like, you’re not a very good teacher. She has a seventy-four I.Q.! And I can’t help if people have lazy butts either. I have slums in my classroom that sit there and ask me to entertain them. So, I just think the state: good intentions, we lost our manufacturing so now we are going to be a smart state, gene pool hasn’t changed, you know, let’s be realistic here. So, I just think the government should be taking care of the economy and work on the bad schools and let the good schools continue to do a great job. JACK: Do you think that maybe, with the state having such high standards is, in a way, hurting us? DECKER: Yeah because I don’t think that we can meet those high standards. This is a manufacturing state. And, I think we have, years ago, a lot of people would go through school and kind of get through school and then go to manufacturing positions and things like that, and I think that nation-wide I think the standards are hurting us. We are competing against people; I think like Switzerland has some of the highest standards and they meet those, but they don’t ask their special ed. kids to take those. When you see those polls where the United States is way down here and those other countries are way up here, they usually take just the cream of the crop and give those kids the test. And I think the standards are hurting us. I just think it is making us look dumber and dumber and dumber. And in some ways society is getting dumber. JACK: So you’re saying that at Rockford they make all the special ed. students take the ACT, even the ones with like Down syndrome? DECKER: No we don’t have any, I think we have one student that might be slightly downs; um, other than that they have learning disabilities and some low I.Q.’s. We do have a couple self-contained classrooms. They get-- Somebody will like read it to them or something like that, but it’s still the remembering. If you would have to study a month’s worth of notes before any exam, you know how hard that is. Now we are asking them to read and just cognitively understand something that they might read the sentence and they don’t even understand it. So, I think the government is well meaning, but I don’t think it is necessarily realistic. Page 19 �JACK: One of our big focuses in class lately has been about textbooks and information being altered or changed or showing the positivesDECKER: Oh instead of showing some of the negative things JACK: And I know that you’re an English teacher, and you read a lot of books- do you notice that? DECKER: The books we read are fairly old books. JACK: Sadly, this is where our recording device died. The remaining part of the interview, we discussed how Jackie did not really see that the books her students read in English class were biased, but she did agree to the idea that all textbooks should relay all of the facts, not just a positive portrayal of history. END OF INTERVIEW Page 20 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1e24581e1e75528d1ec66da24b68fab7.mp3 261bc57128a099ad8d34bb05bcad4d11 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Decker_Jacqueline Title A name given to the resource Jacqueline Decker audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Decker, Jacqueline Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jack, Emma Description An account of the resource Born March, 3rd 1959 to parents Richard and Eve Holland. Youngest of three children with brothers Gary and Terry. Grew up in Grand Rapids, graduating from Crestwood high school. She then continued her education at Central Michigan University with a major in English and a minor in psychology. Ran cross country and track and field on the varsity teams. Met her husband (now of 30 years), Steven Decker in the dorms on campus in her freshman year, his sophomore year. Was married at age 22 and moved to Fremont, Michigan following her husband. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Age discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-26 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/14615bee1536364574dd0ee44c6caaad.pdf 41887eaaf761245ce30baedb863352f1 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Kristine Skippergosh Interviewer(s): Adam Cutler, Michael Miller and Rebecca Stow Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: December 17, 2011 Runtime: 01:13:46 Biography and Description Kristine Skippergosh is a junior at Grand Valley State University. She is of Native American descent and her father works for the city of Wyoming in Michigan. She discussed the difficulties her father faced regarding race in his early years, as well as some of her own challenges. Transcript STOW: So… Could you start by just giving us some basic information about yourself, Full name, and date and place of birth? Also your parents and siblings. SKIPPERGOSH: Ok. Well my name is Kristine Skippergosh, um, I am originally from Grand Rapids. I was born and raised in Grand Rapids. Um, my dad is Gary and my mom’s Laurie. Um, I have three brothers. Uh, they are thirty-six, thirty-four and fourteen [laughing], big age difference. I have a niece and nephew who are three and one and a half. Um, they all live in Boyne City though…so… far away. Um, I went to Kenowa Hills high school, it’s in Walker…um, yeah *laughing+. STOW: So wha… what exactly is it that your parents do, or your dad (SKIPPERGOSH: oh um) what he does for a living? SKIPPERGOSH: He is an electrician for the city of Wyoming so… STOW: Ok SKIPPERGOSH: Yep, um, he went to an Indian Trade School for that, so… CUTLER and STOW: ok SKIPPERGOSH: Kind of interesting. Um, that’s where the Native American heritage is from, it is onehundred percent Native American so, CUTLER: Ok SKIPPERGOSH: mmhm. Page 1 �STOW: What about your mom, is she…? SKIPPERGOSH: Um… she is *pause for thinking+ Dutch and French. *Laughing+ STOW: A pretty good variety. SKIPPERGOSH: Yep. STOW: Um… so, do you know what the Indian Trade School was like, for him? SKIPPERGOSH: Um… well, *multiple people talking+ he originally started at Northern Michigan University. He went there for his first semester. Um, I think he was actually going into elementary education…but, over his Christmas break my grandpa passed away. So then he moved to Arizona and he got married not long after he went down there. It was um… They were high school sweethearts. So (CUTLER: ok) and he went to the trade school down there and played baseball on their baseball team and I know he has an award down there, I’ve never actually seen it, but um, for outstanding academics and athletics, and he also has one at his old high school too, so… *laughing+ CUTLER: How many, how many years did he complete at Northern before he moved? SKIPPERGOSH: Just the semester CUTLER: Oh, so it was one semester… ok. SKIPPERGOSH: Yep, um… My grandma passed away when he was like, eight, so… when my grandpa passed away, he… decided to go elsewhere I guess, explore a little bit *laughing+ CUTLER: So did you have any family in Arizona or did he (SKIPPERGOSH: no) just decide to move out there. SKIPPERGOSH: Just went out there to the trade school… CUTLER: Wow alright. SKIPPERGOSH: mmhm, yep. It was… I don’t know if it was in Albuquerque… or just near, actually it was Mexico first. He was in the trade school, then he moved to Arizona for a little while, so… yep. STOW: So is that where he, like, completed his college education? SKIPPERGOSH: yep STOW: So how did he end up back in Grand Rapids? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, he first went… he is originally from Charlevoix, I guess I probably could have said that first [laughing]. Um, he was born and raised in Charlevoix, and he went back up there first to, I guess, look for work. Um, by the time he got back up there he was already, um, divorced, so he had two young kids, and was divorced, and, um, so he went back up there to look for work. There wasn’t really much of anything… and, he had friends in Grand Rapids, so that’s when he came down here. Page 2 �CUTLER: Ok SKIPPERGOSH: So… mmhm. STOW: Um… so… um when his first marriage got, um, so was that to your mom or was (SKIPPERGOSH: no) was that someone else? SKIPPERGOSH: Nope, that was to someone else. My older brothers are half-brothers. CUTLER and STOW: Oh ok. SKIPPERGOSH: That’s why there is big age difference. (CUTLER and STOW: ok) Because we are thirteen and fifteen years apart… so *laughing+ STOW: So then he met your mom in Grand Rapids? SKIPPERGOSH: mmhm, yep, um… It was through a mutual friend that they had, it was another Indian guy. And he was dating one of my mom’s best friends. So… (STOW: oh ok), they met through… through them. CUTLER: Ok… and what did he, um, complete his schooling for… like SKIPPERGOSH: Um it was actually, it was originally, he has a… like license in electronics. And then he also, um… it’s an extra license to do, like, traffic signals. So… (CUTLER: ok), he got that too. CUTLER: And then he moved back to… he found a job in Grand Rapids? SKIPPERGOSH: Yeah, um, he actually… which, I didn’t know this until I interviewed him, but, he um, he did have a lot of trouble at the time because it [long pause] late seventies, early eighties there was, you know, there was still a lot of discrimination (CUTLER: yeah) and he had trouble finding work up North. So, when he came back down here he applied for a job, and I guess he got the job, like, on the spot… like through the interview. The guy just asked him. It was on a Thursday and the guy asked him if he could be there Monday morning. (CUTLER: Wow)… Yep! *Laughing+ CUTLER: So about the, about the discrimination… do… has your dad talked about anything like, that he, like about not being able to get a job? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, there’s actually… all through growing up he went through, I guess, he experienced a lot of discrimination (CUTLER: uh-huh). Um, he is one of seven kids, and in Northern Michigan there are a lot of Indian reservations. CUTLER: Ok SKIPPERGOSH: And there is one in Harbor Springs. It’s right near Petoskey and Charlevoix. And that’s actually where we are, like, tribal members. Um… When my grandma passed away, since sixty-three I think, they said that um, like the government came and said my grandpa was un-fit to take care of the kids by himself. Because first he couldn’t provide enough money, but my grandma didn’t work, so… even when she was alive he was the, you know, the soul provider of income. Um… but, one of my Aunts at Page 3 �the time, I think she was already twenty, so she was out of school…and everything. And she offered to take care of the younger kids. CUTLER: There were seven kids? SKIPPERGOSH: Yes CUTLER: wow, ok. SKIPPERGOSH: Um, they are all about two years apart (CUTLER: ok) Um so there were still a couple of them. My dad was like, eight, and my other uncle was six. And I think my aunt was around ten so there were a couple of them still. Um, but they were also told that she couldn’t take care of them, so the younger ones went into foster care [long pause] yep. STOW: So SKIPPERGOSH: So I guess that was like part one [laughing] STOW: So what ended up happening with the foster care, how long were they… involved with that. SKIPPERGOSH: Um… my dad was thirteen when he got to go back to live with my grandpa so… not too long… but a few years. They were originally separated, and then they were finally like, found homes, where all three could be together. Because most families wouldn’t take in three kids because they said they would only take in one at a time or two. So they were originally apart for a while then they found families that would take all of them together. So… STOW: So, then what was it that allowed them to be able to go back to your grandpa. SKIPPERGOSH: Um… I’m not really sure. My dad’s not too sure. I mean he was still young. He was around thirteen, so… I guess they were just told that they could go back. Maybe it was just because it was only the three of them that needed taking care of. But, I mean they were going into high school or in high school already so… I mean being a little bit older, so… mmhm. STOW: So you said that was kinda part one, so was there anything in high school that happened? SKIPPERGOSH: In high school my dad was… I guess you could say he was quite an exceptional athlete. He still has track records that haven’t been broken yet. Um… and I mean he graduated in seventy-four. CUTLER and STOW: wow SKIPPERGOSH: So they have been standing for many years now. Um, but he played varsity basketball and football all four years, and in basketball, I don’t know about anything else, I don’t know if it was ever challenged. But at one point there were three Native Americans on the team. And they were told that there can only be two. CUTLER: Wow SKIPPERGOSH: So, um, my dad, obviously, ended up staying. But one of the other guys had to leave. And I think he wasn’t originally from up there, so he went back to wherever his family was. So… mmhm. Page 4 �CUTLER: So that was just the basketball team, but was there any other incidences other than that? SKIPPERGOSH: um, I don’t think it was… my dad has said before that there were always like teachers and stuff who would, you know, try very hard to keep them down and if they could, you know, keep them off the teams, like via grades and stuff, but, um… my dad has like a special reward, like, I guess it would be a replica of it, but it’s for outstanding academics and athletics and it was presented to him by the athletic boosters of the administration of the school because he was incredibly smart and solid in academics and also in sports. CUTLER: yeah SKIPPERGOSH: I guess he kind of got lucky. It was hard for them to keep him down and keep him out of everything because he was, you know, he was needed, especially in like track and football and (CUTLER: yeah) so… STOW: um, so, when, like with like teachers were there any that actually. I guess I don’t know how to phrase it. If he was being singled out I guess or were there like other people that he was friends with maybe that were going through the same thing. SKIPPERGOSH: Um, I’m not exactly sure about being singled out, but I know there was just a lot of discrimination in general against Native Americans. Like if they could stop them from graduating they would and, um… the biggest problem at the time was like during the seventies… I don’t know if you guys know too much about it but, um, but that was like the Native American movement, when it was all happening. And that was when the biggest turnover was like when it comes to laws and regulations. And um, the… um, reservations now have their own tribal police and all native American reservations are technically independent nations where the federal law does not apply unless there is a felony committed. So they have no jurisdiction (CUTLER: ok) So anywhere up there is tribal land and they were first establishing their police department and it was a big problem because as a tribal member, like even now, if I were to like, get pulled over for anything, all I would have to do is demand a tribal police officer, and the state police or whoever couldn’t do anything until a tribal police officer came. And they would have all authority. So it was… a really big deal up there. (CUTLER and STOW: uh-huh) because there were quite a few Native Americans. (CUTLER: yeah) And, you know, that’s where the majority of the reservations are from there to the UP, so I mean our tribe was just establishing all… you know, their rights. And you know, all of the financial situations were being settled because, um, if you live on or within a certain distance of the reservation up there, the Native Americans do not have to pay state taxes (CUTLER: ok) or the city, or like the village or whatever it is taxes. So, and it’s for anything… like your home, or buying a car, for gas or anything like that, so… it was… a lot of people didn’t like that (CUTLER: yeah) especially at the time. I mean. So it was, you know, anything they could do, like my dad always had trouble finding jobs and stuff, even when you were younger, and he worked on a lot of farms and did farm work. So, it was just a lot of the little things. CUTLER: So I don’t know if we’ve established this, but what tribe is your dad from? SKIPPERGOSH: Actually he is half Ottawa and half Chippewa, were members of the little Traverse bay band of Odawa Indians. (CUTLER: ok) It’s in Petoskey and Harbor Springs. And then, um, there is also Page 5 �another tribe that’s like associated with us and that’s the Grand Traverse Bay, and that’s in Traverse City. Um, I don’t know if you guys have ever been to the casino up there, but *laughing+ the casino is their casino. CUTLER: Um, so, during that time period, uh, where there was a big legislation that passed, was your dad a part of like, any groups that like groups that helped get that passed or like, any advocate groups er? SKIPPERGOSH: Um… not too much, I know my grandpa and um… and we have family members now that are on like, that are board members of the tribe and stuff like that or work in different members of the tribe. And one of my brothers is like, high up in the casino and so, um, but my dad’s he’s not too much, effects him personally. He kind of just let others take care of it so. And I don’t know if it really came down to there needing to be too much of a fight just because it was like Federal law that was passed. So there wasn’t really too much anyone could do but be mad about it and limit as much as they could. But otherwise it was not, you know, there was not much fighting that was needed because it was what it was. STOW: um so, just going back to the tribe. Was your dad always a part of that and then you… like when did you become a part of it SKIPPERGOSH: um, it was, the way it works is um, like when you’re born, there are forms to be filled out. And they have to be turned in within two months or so, of um… birth. And I’m pretty sure my dad was always a part of it. um, We don’t know too much just because my Grandma died, you know, he was so young, he doesn’t really remember her. Um, but her tribe, she was Chippewa, her tribe is in Berega, it’s in the UP near Marquette. Um but he doesn’t know too much about it. Um, most of, well I guess, just about all of my family is also a part of the same tribe. I just have some cousins who are part of the other one just cause their dad was originally was a part of it. So if you have like two parents who are both Indian and part of a Tribe, the parents can choose. And a lot of it comes, it obviously comes down to money and what has better benefits and stuff. Otherwise there is not too much choice, and to be a full tribal member you have to be at least a quarter of the tribe. STOW: Ok, So then what sorts of things are involved with being a member of it? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, well, I have an, I mean I have like a tribal ID card. It’s like a picture ID, I mean it’s very similar to like or Grand Valley IDs its not like super official. But It does like scan stuff, um. I can use it up there, there are two gas stations I can use it at, and I don’t have to pay the state taxes, on gas when I use it, um. Which is really nice. *laughing+ Um, they’re like I have a tuition waver through the govern, which like the government pays the state of Michigan pays um to go to school and I just have to be a full time student and I think I have to maintain a 2.0 GPA. So as long as your… passing I guess *laughing+ I mean, its not, you know, unfortunately it’s not too much of a big deal, but um, I also would get for grad school, they pay for that [CUTLER: ok, wow]um, I get a, I guess its more of a private scholarship its through or tribe specifically, but most of them have them, for, it’s like for certain people. Um, mine is the Michelle Chinglaw scholarship. She was one of your tribal board members and she passed away of cancer so they started a fund in her name, and it’s a per credit hour scholarship so depending on how Page 6 �many credits I take I get a certain amount of money and also it depends, I think there are four different ranks for schools um, there’s like, the smallest amount is for like a junior college or community college, then there’s more for a trade school and then slightly more for a four year university, then the highest is for a grad program. And then um… *whispering: oh what else+ um… there are a lot of, I guess for, its called the elders program. Once you reach 55 you get you can get free health care, dental care, all of that. Um, there um, they get like, its for heating and electricity bills and all you have to do is send in the like stubs for what you have paid for the year and they reimburse you five hundred dollars for it. Um. They will reimburse them for medications and stuff, if they hang on to those stubs for everything they have paid for medication, um they’ll reimburse you a certain amount towards that and I think there is also something with groceries, as well. As long as you hang onto, the, you know, again, the receipts and stuff, and what you’ve paid, it all just has to be mailed up there. I think it’s around Christmas time or something. That’s when like they pay out everything. It just all has to be sent up there by then. And I’m not exactly sure how much it is. All I know for sure is heating and electricity is five hundred dollars, um per year. Um, there is also which they’ve actually stopped it now, there was a trust fund set up for um tribal members and you didn’t get it until you were eighteen, and it like started out, um, I know it changed a little bit but it was originally just one lump sum and that was what you got and then they changed it. And it was, it started with that amount of money when you were born like when you were signed up for it and gained interest through that, so [CUTLER and STOW: ok] But that, I think they stopped doing that in ninety-seven because my little brother just missed out. On it. But there are still like you can open, you can like use the tribe for, like bank account type purposes, like you can set up a trust fund yourself through them and the interest rates are really, really high, so, um that’s what my dad has done for my little brother, so, he will still at least get something [laughing] when he turns eighteen. So STOW: Um, so, for you personally, did you ever experience any sort of discrimination when you were growing up or even now? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, every now and then, I mean, I try to be I guess as modest and humble about the things I get you know like I rarely talk about, you know, getting the scholarship that I get and the tuition waver. I mean, in all honesty in the end I essentially make money for going to school because of the scholarship is worth so much money. I have a lot that I hang on to in the end, which I save, I’m not out like spending it ridiculously [laughing], um, but um, I mean, there are some people, who, you know, I guess it’s, I feel like It’s somewhat common knowledge that people know or assume that Indians go to school for free, but I’ve had people like, almost make like snickering comments, about “oh you go to school for free” and, you know, when I mention that I’m Native American, so, um, but its, you know, that’s one of those things where… like at first I kind of cared, it kind of bothered me, but now it’s just one of those things where I’m like “whatever” *CUTLER: yeah+ you know, I mean, it doesn’t matter to me. I mean I’m going to, I mean it’s not going to make me not want to accept the money. I mean it’s a great opportunity, I mean it’s an incredible opportunity, to be able to go to college for free. And um, I’d rather not take advantage of that, I know a lot of people do which also gives like a negative stereotype because, essentially I could be going here and just, you know, squeezing by with bare minimum and continue to, you know, get my way though, I would probably not get a degree with that [laughing] Page 7 �SKIPPERGOSH: ...but um, also, sometimes people make comments about the whole casino thing because like we do make money off the casino but, people assume that, I mean there are tribes out there, don’t get me wrong, that their members are making sixty, seventy thousand dollars a year, I mean it is enough money to live off of, you essentially wouldn’t have to work but, I mean there are very, very few of them [CUTLER: Yeah] um, you could probably count on one hand how many there are in the entire nation, um, but I mean people just assume that I’m like, taking in all of this money every year and it’s, it’s not much money I mean, I get five hundred dollars annually, which I mean, it’s five hundred dollars, but still it’s, it’s no you know, ten thousand dollars a year or anything so a lot of people like, have I guess assumptions about it, and I think it makes them feel negative about it um, I think the biggest thing would probably be like, it seems like a jealous factor almost, like I don’t wanna talk it up that much like make myself out to be, you know, someone that I’m not but um, yeah I mean it’s mostly the comments that have to do with the whole money factor and um, I, I mean I haven’t had to deal with it as much but I still have family in Charlevoix and I know some of them have run into problems where, you know, where being Indian still isn’t ok, which you know, it’s either older people that feel that way you know, who when they were younger, you know, were I guess prejudiced towards Indians and still are but, I mean I try not to let any of it bother me because it’s not really affecting me, and there’s nothing anyone can do *laughs+ about it so, I mean I’m going to accept what I’m given so, um, but yeah I would say the biggest thing is just with money so, and I mean I’ve heard, people have made comments too about like my tuition waiver, how it’s their tax dollars paying for it and they don’t think that’s ok that they have to pay taxes for people to go to school but, again I mean, I’m not gonna not accept it *laughs+ and it’s not like I was, you know, I didn’t come up with these rules they were come, you know, the laws were established many years ago and they’re federal laws it’s not a state law it’s not, a city law so um, I mean I guess that’s the biggest thing. STOW: Ok... *clears throat, brief pause+ um, I’m trying to think do you have anything you wanna ask about? [directed towards CUTLER] CUTLER: Do you think, uh I guess do you think it would be different if it were not in West Michigan like do you think, do you think um, like there would be less discrimination somewhere else or is it like, is there more because it’s West Michigan or... SKIPPERGOSH: Um, I actually feel like in West Michigan it’s...less than it could be *CUTLER: Ok+ other places, um, there’s such a small Indian population just in the first place and um, I feel like a lot of people around here don’t, like probably couldn’t say they know very many Native Americans, if any at all [CUTLER: Mhmm] um, I mean I was one of...three that I knew of in my high school [CUTLER: Ok] and I graduated with over four hundred people *CUTLER: Wow+ so our high school wasn’t small. But, I mean there were, you know, it’s, they’re few and far between I don’t think there are very many that go to Grand Valley [CUTLER: Mhmm+ I don’t know the exact statistic but, um, I know they like push to get, you know, of course they’re pushing to get diversity anyways, but um, I feel like there are a lot of places where it would be worse but there are also a lot of, I mean I’ve learned a lot about it just this year too, a lot more than I knew before um, from my sociology class but, like a lot of the reservations, especially in South Dakota, and like more out west um, there’s one, Pine Ridge, their unemployment rate is at about eighty percent right now [CUTLER: Wow] um, their like casualty rate due to alcohol or like, car accidents Page 8 �with alcohol is above and beyond any other *CUTLER: Mhmm+ um, their suicide rates are obscene it’s just, I mean they don’t, they don’t have work, the government refuses to help because the way the laws are, the federal government does not have to help them [CUTLER: Mhmm] so, I mean their houses are falling apart, they don’t, they don’t have food, they don’t have anything their schools are you know, below any sort of regulation, and I mean out there it’s, the alcoholism rates are, you know probably higher than their unemployment rates unfortunately and um, it’s one of those things where, unfortunately it fuels the negative stereotypes, and makes especially people out there feel even worse about it and um, still the government you know, I mean I feel very fortunate to live in Michigan because the government is very accepting of Native Americans [CUTLER: Yeah] and very helpful but out there they refuse to do anything like on the tribal land they can’t get welfare or anything like that so in order to, you know those families who are struggling, they can’t get the financial help that they need unless they go off the tribal land, but they still have a lot of like sacred rituals out there and they still try to live you know, the way they’ve always lived and it’s, you know, it’s hard because you can’t have it both ways, so...um but yeah I feel very fortunate in West Michigan too, I mean I’ve never experienced anything like that’s truly affected me, um, I mean like I said at first you know, I didn’t really like the way people I guess reacted towards like the financial situations but now, I mean I can’t, I guess I’ve just realized I can’t feel bad for it, um, I can’t, you know, feel sorry that I’ve been given a great opportunity, so, and I’m not gonna, obviously I’m not going to pass it up just because other people don’t like it *STOW: Mhmm+ there are a lot of people who really think it’s great and really, you know, are like happy for me and other people but it’s just, I mean there are a lot of things and it, um...I guess in a way it makes me angry that there are so many people who just continue to fuel the stereotypes, um like I’ve said my family’s very big I’m one of forty one first cousins *STOW and CUTLER: Wow+ so it’s, it’s I mean it’s huge and I honestly can’t say I even know all of them *CUTLER: Yeah+ um, I, half the time I can’t even remember their names *STOW laughs+ just because there’s so many of us *CUTLER: Yeah+ and um, I’m probably one of less than ten who have actually gone to college. [CUTLER: Ok] So, I mean, and we all have the same opportunity [CUTLER: Mhmm] all being from the same tribe. So it, it you know it frustrates me that like, there are others who have the same opportunity but aren’t taking it and you know I have a cousin who’s, he graduated a year before me and failed out of the community college up north and actually has to um, he has to pay the tribe back, for all [CUTLER: Oh, wow; STOW: Wow] of his tuition fees because if you, you know, I mean the money does come through the tribe, but essentially it comes from the state of Michigan first [CUTLER: Yeah; STOW: Mhmm] and if you fail out of all of your classes, they shouldn’t have to keep giving you money *CUTLER: Yeah; STOW: Right+ but, I mean and he’s angry that he has to pay it all back but I mean, if you can’t keep the grades, and like, it’s even more sad, he took a guitar class and a ceramics class, and just like, classes that weren’t going to get him anywhere, he had no direction and he failed all of them! I mean, how do you fail a ceramics class [STOW: laughs] and guitar class when he plays the guitar already? *CUTLER: Yeah+ So, you know it’s just, it’s like I, in a sense I understand why some of the stereotypes are there and why people are angry, so, it’s, I almost, it makes me not be able to be mad either and not be able to be affected by it because, I mean, people think what they think because of what they see and obviously there’s not very good representation of things you know, going well and even, you know, in filling out, because I have to do all of my paperwork at the tribe, I have to go up there and get it all figured, filled out and like, set and everything like that and um, even there, like it’s, it’s almost sad how like proud they are and happy they are to have a tribal Page 9 �member going to school like I was kind of stunned by the way they were like, treating me and how excited they were for me just to be going to school and I just feel like it’s not, I mean, shouldn’t we all be going to school? [Laughs] You know, I mean, so um, in a sense, like, you know as unfortunate as no one should be discriminated against at all whatsoever but, there are reasons and you know I do understand why some of it is, why the negative stereotypes exist, because people continue to fuel them and, so... CUTLER: So, are you the first one of your siblings to go to, uh, to go to college? SKIPPERGOSH: Mhmm, uh my oldest brother did go to a trade school [CUTLER and STOW: Ok] so um, I mean that was, you know that’s as good as anything *CUTLER: Yeah+ he has, he does have a very good job, um, he is, actually I don’t really know how to word it, um he’s I guess the second supervisor of all maintenance at our tribe’s casino, so he oversees everything going on in the casino and in our resort as well [CUTLER: Ok] um he, at one point he owned his own plumbing business but, when the economy really started to fall it, you know, it wasn’t working out for him so that’s when he went to work for the tribe and um, he just actually over the summer got promoted to the position he’s in now um, but, um, my other older brother, again, like I’ve said it fuels the stereotype, he’s almost thirty five years old and doesn’t have it together, he doesn’t have a high school education either, he never graduated, so, um, uhhh it’s, it’s, it’s kind of almost, I feel like it, in a way it’s backwards from what most families are like just in general because usually it’s the kids are the first to go to college *CUTLER: Yeah] I mean my dad you know, has a good education and he has two different licenses from a trade school and um, he’s only, he works with the city of Wyoming, there are only three guys who have this license who work for the city so actually there’s only two now because one of them retired so my dad’s only one of two who is actually qualified to do any of the signal work [CUTLER: Ok] um, and the stuff that he does out there and um, I mean there’s a lot, a lot to know *CUTLER: Yeah+ so it’s like it’s, um, there’s a lot of, I think it’s physics and stuff that are involved and you know, a lot of math and all that stuff so, but um, yeah so I mean it really became a big deal for me to go to college and so, um, I feel like it, I’m sure my little brother will too because I’ve set the bar kind of high *Laughs+ for him so if he doesn’t um, I’m sure that’ll be an even bigger deal *CUTLER: Yeah+ but he’s, he’s an incredibly smart kid anyways, so hopefully! [Laughs] STOW: So why is it do you think that so many people don’t take advantage of the opportunity? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, I really, I don’t, I have no idea, I mean...I don’t know how you couldn’t really, um, I can’t imagine passing it up, I don’t know how, like what there could be to justify *CUTLER: Yeah+ not, I mean you can go to any school in the state of Michigan whether it be the smallest community college, the smallest trade school or the absolute biggest university. Um, there’s no limit to it, you just have to be a full time enrolled student, um, you can go back to school with it, um so I’m really not sure why people don’t just take the opportunity especially I mean with the economy today you have to have a degree *CUTLER: Yeah; STOW: Mhmm+ to do anything even, you know there are a lot of things like I’m going into psychology and I know that a bachelor’s in psychology does not mean anything anymore so I’m already you know, prepared to go get my Master’s if not higher like there’s no question about it but um, I mean, there aren’t, there really aren’t any like loop holes that could hold people back um, all of the tribes as far as I know offer scholarships so you can, you know, if you wanna go away to school you can have at least some money towards housing, it may not be everything but I mean, you can still take Page 10 �out loans like everyone else who goes to school *Laughs+ I mean it’s, it’s just one of those things where I just, I really can’t come up with a logical reason why, I mean everything’s there for you all I have to do for my stuff and I mean, it could be a little different for other tribes but I literally have to sign my name on a piece of paper. Every, I think it’s every school year I have to resign but, um, that’s about all I have to do. I have to put my birth date and my social security number and my address...um, and then I just, I have to get, Grand Valley has to send a transcript now every semester like obviously after your first semester of going you have to have a transcript sent up there and a, um, schedule for the semester, for each semester and it’s just so they can, they have proof that you are going to school for at least, you know, at least twelve credits or whatever it is at you know, other universities but I mean, it’s not hard I, I hand a form to Grand Valley and they take care of it, the registrar’s office, because it has to be officially sealed and signed by a register but, I mean, all I have to do is give it to them with my information on it and it’s, it’s just like it’s stupid easy *Laughs+ is the problem like it is stupid easy and people still don’t do it and I feel like it’s very frustrating for, you know for me as well because I don’t, I don’t, I can’t see why someone wouldn’t take the opportunity and you know and then they don’t take the opportunity and they don’t have work and they can’t, you know, I mean I can’t imagine anyone finding a job you know if you don’t have some sort of education because I think now even at McDonald’s you have to, you have to either be enrolled in high school or have a GED or diploma to work there so, there’s nothing that people can do anymore [CUTLER: Yeah] and why you would want to not go about it, I mean, do you guys have a better idea? *Laughs+ I’d love to know, but I, I can’t come up with anything and so...yeah. CUTLER: So, so where do you hope to work after you complete your schooling? SKIPPERGOSH: Um...I’d like to work in a children’s hospital. *CUTLER: Ok+ Um, like with the children and their families as a counselor um, I don’t have anywhere specific um, I mean I, I’ve grown up in Grand Rapids and like I don’t know if you guys are from the area...? *CUTLER: Uh, I’m not+ No? Um, well, I mean I didn’t even really know this until recently but Grand Rapids is, is the second largest city in Michigan *CUTLER: Yeah, yeah+ um but I’ve always felt like Grand Rapids is small, maybe it’s just from growing up here *Laughs+ um, so, I don’t know how I’d feel about being somewhere too much smaller, um, but, I’d like to feel open about it, I used to be very like, close minded, like didn’t really wanna leave too much but just as long as I’m in like a children’s hospital and you know, wherever the opportunities are I guess that’s where I’ll go and, so, I mean it also depends on where I’m at in my life at that point too, whether, you know like, married or what not [STOW: Right] but I mean, so, yeah just wherever it takes me I guess, wherever the opportunities are! [Laughs] [CUTLER: Alright] Mhmm. [Brief pause] STOW: Um, so, you said before, is most of your family, they’re all in the state of Michigan? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, there are a couple who aren’t, um it was actually after my grandma passed away, some of the older ones moved out of state, uh, my oldest aunt and my two...no...my oldest aunt and then, it was not the oldest uncle because there are only two girls but the next two uncles, they left the state and then my oldest uncle stayed to make sure everything was ok with um, my dad and the younger ones who were in foster care. Um, but they started in Chicago, and that’s where one of them stayed and so that’s where um... *Interruption of people walking through our room into a meeting room next door] Page 11 �Um, so...what was I saying...oh, um [CUTLER: About Chicago?] yeah, so one of them stayed in Chicago and that’s where he um, was married and like raised his family and so a lot of my cousins still live there, they’re mostly older though, they’re actually the oldest cousins, they’re in their early forties now, so it’s a very big age span too, um, but um, and then there are two of them now, one of my aunts and my uncles are in Arizona [CUTLER: Ok] so, um yeah and then the rest are here in Michigan. One of my uncles, it’s actually the oldest uncle, he never left Charlevoix, um, he went into the Navy for a while but always ended up back there, um, my dad is actually...he is, it’s kind of an ongoing debate/decision right now because the city’s making a lot of changes and my dad has enough years with the city to retire *CUTLER: Ok+ um, so he may do that and go back to the company he started working at because he’s only had like I guess two real jobs since he’s gotten his licenses, and um, so he may go back and work for them because they’re a contract company um, and he might just retire and then he wants to wait until my brother graduates, which is only four more years, and then he wants to move back to Charlevoix *CUTLER: Oh, ok+ so um, he doesn’t, I guess, I mean he’s become accustomed to the city, he’s been living in Grand Rapids for probably thirty years now, right around there but, he um, he doesn’t call Grand Rapids home, he still calls Charlevoix home *CUTLER: Ok+ so, he wants to go back up there and that’s where, um I guess, I don’t know if you guys know Northern Michigan very well but Boyne City is right next to Charlevoix *STOW: Mhmm+ and that’s where my oldest brother and his wife and kids live so, my dad is kind of at that point in his life, I mean he’s gonna be fifty six next week so he’s kind of like into that grandpa thing, you know, having the grandkids, like it’s a bigger deal than us now you know, he’s moved on from the whole kids business [laughs] so um, he really just wants to get back up there so... CUTLER: And is that in Northern Michigan or is that in the U.P.? SKIPPERGOSH: Nope, it’s in Northern Michigan *CUTLER: Northern Michigan+ um, it’s about, um, around an hour from the bridge. *CUTLER: Ok+ So...mhmm yup it’s really really nice up there *CUTLER: Ok+ so I guess I’m guessing neither of you have been up there? *CUTLER: No... STOW: I have!+ Oh, you have? *STOW: Yeah, mhmm!+ Oh ok, um, but yeah, it’s I mean they’re all smaller towns but they’re very, very touristy. [CUTLER: Oh, ok] STOW: So if you were to move out of Michigan like after college how would that effect your tribal situation? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, it wouldn’t effect...no, the only thing um, I guess the only like, restriction is when you’re in college, um, unless I can come up with an incredibly good reason and pitch it to the board why I would need to go out of schoo--out of state for school, otherwise I would have to stay in state in order to get, um, the like scholarship money and stuff and the tuition money, but otherwise there are really no limits to most of it. The biggest benefits are in um, like if you live up or near the reservation that’s where like the tax waivers and stuff like that come into effect, but um, there just aren’t very many opportunities anyways in Northern Michigan right now. So they’ve–my sister-in-law works in the hospital up there and um if I were to work up there I would get more money...like my income would be higher per year, but the opportunities anyways are limited, they’ve made major cuts to their hospitals and they don’t even have um like a nice anymore, if they’re you know, like the newborns when there are problems they have to– Page 12 �they’ll helicopter them to traverse so I mean they’ve cut just about everything they can, so, there just isn’t too much to do up there otherwise I might consider you know, toughing it out, getting used to like a smaller area but, otherwise I mean, like there are some things that, like i guess if I went to med school and became a doctor I could work for the tribe, like we have our own tribal doctors and um, there’s a dentist and all of that but otherwise I mean might as well go where life takes me [Laughter] so... STOW: Um, have you traveled much outside of Michigan? SKIPPERGOSH: Um...I mean I’ve been to like Florida a few times, I’ve been to Washington DC, I’ve been to Missouri a few times um and...I mean I’ve been out of the country just only a handful of times I’ve been to um, I’ve been to Canada quite a few times but that’s not a really *Laughter+ that big of a trip um, and then I’ve also been to the Dominican Republic once...um, yea that’s about it. STOW: So did you experience any sort of discrimination when you traveled or anything? SKIPPERGOSH: Um...no I feel like not very many people know that I’m Native American um, a lot of times if i have to go somewhere like going out of the country you need two like two picture ids besides your passport so getting into the dominican I did have trouble because usually I give them my licensee and tribal ID because I mean my tribal ID is probably my second best like legal document but um, in the Dominican they didn't know what it was i guess they didn’t really understand it so I had to give them my school id instead, um so that was kind of interesting but otherwise i think there are quite a few indians in canada so um they’ve never really questioned it i mean I guess getting in and out of Canada isn’t that big of a deal anyways I don’t know if either of you have been but... CUTLER: Yea only once. SKIPPERGOSH: Okay, I mean it’s not a huge deal...um I don’t know if it’s helped but when I’ve gone I went with my boyfriend and he’s from Mackinac City so and um his dad is actually a retired state cop and FBI agent, so they’ll ask him why he lives in Mackinac and he’ll say it’s because his dad retires from the state police and usually that’s all they need to know *Laughter+. But yea um, I don’t think that many people like with my dad he looks very very Indian, I know there’s something on here about pictures I’m sure I could get you guys pictures if you wanted like pictures of some of our family um, my dad and like my aunts and uncles look very Indian but I don’t think I do too much most people don't know um I’ve actually I’ve only had one person that I can recall tell me that I look Indian which I was very shocked, I was like “oh my gosh, you...you noticed that!” so, um, yea the discrimination isn’t too bad, I’m sure if I went out to South Dakota or something like that it would be much different because it’s a whole other world out there when it comes to like the Indian reservations and stuff so... STOW: Um, do you have any experiences with other people like within your family that were being discriminated against? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, well, I guess something more recent, I did wanna make sure that I talked about this too um...within the last I wanna say like may around 10 years ago not long after my dad started working for the city of Wyoming um, he did run into, I guess you could say, a major discrimination problem. Page 13 �CUTLER: Okay. SKIPPERGOSH: He ended up suing the city of Wyoming and um, like now, the way everything works, in order to get a civil rights case, like to actually sue someone for discrimination, it has to be approved by the sate government, like the governor and everyone actually has to actually approve it, it has to be voted on like through whatever there um, and he was able to come up with a civil rights lawsuit. CUTLER: So he got all that passed? SKIPPERGOSH: Yep, he got everything approved. What had happened was, um...I guess they way they hire like in his department in the city is very much there’s no...no matter how long you’ve worked, you know, as an electrician everyone or whatever, it doesn’t matter, everyone starts at step one and there are three like levels of...I guess like it, you know, it has to do with like pay too, you get paid more as you move up but you also like every year my dad has to go take like more classes and they have to, you know, with a trade school like with a licensee it’s very similar to like a teacher’s license with how they have to renew it every so many years, they have to go take, you know, a couple classes and stuff and so he has to do that every know and then. Well, they hired another guy in who was just coming out of trade school and um, my dad was already like, you know, had already moved up in rank well they put him at the same level as my dad. And um, I know there were other issues with the discrimination thing and um you know, he tried to just bring it to the city and you know, my dad is a very civil guy, he’s not gonna trow a big fit about it or anything but you know, he tried to respectfully ring it in and say “this isn’t ok, I had to start here, no one else should be able to start at the same level, at the same pay” and it’s an understandable argument obviously. And they denied his request so he got a lawyer and um, they came up with, you know, how it could be a civl rights case and you know, it had to be approved by the state and it was and he ended up winning against the city and um so, that was...I don’t remember too much, I was younger, I do remember him having a lawyer and um, having to go to court and stuff for it but, um, I guess I didn’t really know the extent to it but yea um, he did win the case against the city and so it was kind of a big deal and the guy had to be moved back down and my dad still doesn't like the guy *Laughter+ but that’s for other reasons too. Um, I guess, you know, I mean it wasn't fair just in general for it to happen so um, yea, that was probably one of the most significant things that I mean, it was only a few years after he started working for the city and he’s only been working there for fifteen years so it was very recent. CUTLER: So was that a really big deal throughout the city and stuff, the case? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, I’m not too sure, I mean I’m sure in the sense that, you know, the like extent to which you have to like work to get a civli rights case, I mean that’s big in general so just ot have that against the city is a big deal and um, I mean to win it, you know it’s..like I know my dad, you know like because of that was slightly promoted but he didn’t take any money for it or anything like he didn't...it really had nothing to do with making money or profiting off of like winning this case or annoying like that but um, you know he..., um, you know he...um Someone enters room and interrupts interview. Page 14 �SKIPPERGOSH: Yea I mean the lawsuit the lawsuit wasn’t about like gaining money off it, he just wanted the respect and recognition that he deserved for what he had worked for. STOW: Um, so okay, you said that you’re a junior, right? SKIPPERGOSH: Mhmm. STOW: So, do you think that your experience at grand valley has been influenced at all by your background or any of those experience that you were talking about? Or how would you describe it in general I guess? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, I mean I definitely like being at Grand Valley, um it was...I really wasn't sure where I was going to go to school originally like it was between here and state and Western and I’m really not sure why I chose Grand Valley but I did and I guess I...I guess I really liked the opportunities that I had in general I mean its very, there’s not a whole lot of diversity but there are, like they promote different things. Like actually this month is actually um, I’m not sure of the politically correct term for it but it’s like Native American history month or whatever it is um, so, they have like a lot of speakers coming to Grand Valley for it and there is like a Native American student organization or something but I’ve never actually been...I’ve found a lot of people to be very interested like especially professors and um, stuff like that um, I’ve learned a lot in a lot of my classes, like I was really surprised by the things I've learned like from my professors too about the Native American history and even in my sociology class right now it’s just an intro class but I’ve learned a lot of things that I never knew and my professor's like a really big advocate for minorities and you know for him its like a really big deal and um, so it’s been really very interesting like learning a lot of this stuff and um I definitely like that there are a lot of different cultures here, and I don’t feel like i stand out or anything I mean I don't fell like most people know that I’m Native American anyways but um, I think it’s just like, its a conversation starter, like I’ve met a lot of people who have never met someone who is Native American and are like incredibly shocked and surprised. I’ve also met um, he was an international student and he was I guess technically studying abroad for international business um from Spain and um, he did not believe at first that I was Native American, he did not think it was possible. In Spain they learn that there are no more Native Americans in the world, they are completely like, an extinct race. CUTLER AND ST OW: Wow. SKIPPERGOSH: Um so, yea it was, it was very like, moving to know that that’s what other countries teach and I mean it took a lot of convincing and like he originally took it as a joke when I told him that I was Native American and I really didn't understand that either and he kept telling me that it wasn't possible it wasn't possible, and so yea, I mean it was, that was different it was very very different, I mean like I knew that other countries teach their history different because it’s based more on their own history but I really really was very surprised that I mean they have no idea that Native Americans exist anymore and like it is a dying race, there are less than 2 million in the entire world like actual like I guess North American Native Americans, but yea, um I found that very interesting, so there are a lot of things we learn here [Laughter]. Page 15 �STOW: Um, so were you ever involved with anything, I guess, before college like with Native...besides your tribe, with anything along those lines? SKIPPERGOSH: Um, no not really um, I mean I’ve always wanted to do more with the tribe essentially. There’s actually, they have a class but it’s only taught up there um, but it’s to learn the native language which I think that would be incredibly fascinating um because its a very difficult language to learn and it’s not...I don’t know of any schools that teach it like any universities or anything like that and my family doesn't...one of my aunts knows it a little bit and um her husband knows it quite well he’s actually um, well he's now technically retired but he’s a native pastor so he knows a lot of prayers and stuff and he does um, like he’s done all of our, like he’s married all of our cousins and um you know weddings and funerals, he always does all of that, and he says like a lot of native prayers and stuff so that’s really interesting. But um, my dad doesn’t...he used to know the language, I guess my grandparents used to speak it a lot and like my grandpa and my uncles spoke it all the time I guess my great uncles, I guess my dad only knew it through hearing it, he didn't really know it besides that and he’s lost it all by know. I don’t really know too much going on, I mean this project is actual first thing I’ve been really involved in, um, so yea, because Melanie approached me about it last year when it was...they were just like talking about it and coming up with what to do for the project, so, you know, I was kind of excited to have the opportunity to finally like talk about it and I mean I don’t know if I have really too many interesting things but you know, I mean it’s kind of cool to finally be involved in something. STOW: Um, so some of the things that you were talking about like with your dad’s lawsuit and all of that, did any of that kind of shape how you viewed yourself, like when you were younger were you really aware of your heritage? SKIPPERGOSH: I guess the first time I really became aware of um, like almost being a minority and like how, I don’t know if I would say how different I was, but like it was um, we did a third grade project and I remember it so specifically, but it was like, it was when we were learning about like cultures and origins and stuff and stuff like that and we each you know, especially people who were in all–just a little bit of everything around the world, you had to pick one that you were most likely to identify with and we got these little printed out pictures and it was someone dressed like, like that, whether it would be German or Polish, or Chinese, or Native American so they were dressed in what you would almost–not stereotypical but I guess like the ancient or old or very cultural way. So we were each to like color them and decorate them and, you know, they had our names on them and they would hang in the hall and it was to show how we were all like diverse and we were all from different places and I was the only Native American. So it was, like I remember there was like a small part of me not wanting to be the different one because of course in third grade your like ten years old and no one wants to be different. So I kind of struggled with that and I remember my dad like kind of, talking me through it, like this is who you are and you know you can hide it or you can just be who you are and so I choose to just be who i was, and I remember like most people just colored theirs in and um, my dad’s always, you know, been like big into our educations and stuff and so we took one of his old old leather coats and we cut like a piece of it out and we put the leather on there like on the girl’s Indian dress that she had on and I put like real feathers on top on her little headband, so yea that was like the first time that I had actually like realized that I was different from everyone else and that I wasn’t the same because I mean I’d always Page 16 �known you know, like I could recognize myself even then people who were like African-American or Asian but I didn't exactly see myself as different then, so, that was the first time where it was like eyeopening especially at a young age and it was hard to deal with for a minute, you know, I mean, being different isn’t, like I said, you know, I’m sure we all remember it’s not fun being different at that age, but, it was, it was an interesting experience, I still remember it so specifically, so...yea. If you guys have any other questions that aren’t on here feel free to ask anything, I mean I’m pretty open about whatever. STOW: Um, I’m trying to think. Um, CUTLER, do you have anything else? CUTLER: No, I don’t really have anything else. STOW: I think we’re probably good. CUTLER: No, I don’t really have anything else. STOW: I think we’re probably good. CUTLER: Yea, I think so. SKIPPERGOSH: I mean, if you guys feel like you have enough to use to write your paper, is that what you were–do you just have to write the paper? STOW: Yea, we’re just transcribing it and then we just have to do a short presentation. Oh ok, so, I mean, if you feel like you have enough for it, if there’s anything else, I mean you could always email me and...if there’s anything else then, um yea that’s about it. My last name is Native American so, that too. I don’t know if that’s interesting, but people ask that all the time *Laughter+. STOW: I think that was really good though. CUTLER: Yea, thank you very much! SKIPPERGOSH: Yea no problem, I’m glad I could help you guys and sorry I wasn’t getting back to your emails very quickly, I was–I’ve been so busy lately and I’ve been trying to talk to Melanie too and get back to everyone so... STOW: Oh, that’s fine. SKIPPERGOSH: Well good luck transcribing it! CUTLER: Thank you! STOW: Thanks! END OF INTERVIEW Page 17 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/27101735b8e430db2cfd00c3e1fda3b9.mp3 bc8730775b653d3fc6a962432ff90e64 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Skippergosh_Kristine_1 Title A name given to the resource Kristine Skippergosh audio interview 1 and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Skippergosh, Kristine Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cutler, Adam Miller, Michael Stow, Rebecca Description An account of the resource Kristine Skippergosh is a junior at Grand Valley State University. She is of Native American descent and her father works for the city of Wyoming in Michigan. She discussed the difficulties her father faced regarding race in his early years, as well as some of her own challenges. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination against Indians of North America Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-17 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f194e37cf293c95758d9a0eed9b945c3.pdf 8a2657f06a87aca869a86efc53ba58f6 PDF Text Text R.C.A. Identity: A Call to Ecumenical Community Article by Richard A. Rhem Minister of Preaching and Theological Inquiry Christ Community Church Spring Lake, Michigan Published in New Brunswick Theological Seminary Newsletter Spring 1987, pp. 11-13 Since my mentor and very good friend, Hendrikus Berkhof, has suggested in an interview for Perspectives conducted by Paul Fries that “identity problems might be both a sign and fostering of spiritual decline,” I have reflected on this endeavor in the Reformed Church and recognized that the question of identity has been consciously or unconsciously with me for the past fifteen years in my pastoral ministry at Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan. Berkhof’s response to Paul Fries’ question about identity convinces me that he taught me well in the four years I spent with him, for it was immediately following those years during which I glimpsed the broad spectrum of Reformed thought, far broader and grander than my own Midwestern roots and training had led me to believe, that I returned to the local parish and led the congregation of the First Reformed Church of Spring Lake to change its name of 101 years to Christ Community Church. In 1971 identity was a major concern. Our name change was a deliberate and intentional decision to be an ecumenical community constituted by the blending of traditions and the moving away from parochialism and narrow denominationalism. We were very careful to emphasize that we were not a community church organized around a credal base which was the lowest common denominator of those assembled. We were seeking to become Christ's people, Christ's community and to define Christ we were shaped by our Reformed heritage and sought to be enriched in our understanding by the other great Christian traditions. We drew from the whole spectrum of Christian tradition. Paul said, “everything belongs to you!” and so we mined the gold of several traditions. Thus we honored the past but we determined to define ourselves by a new name which pointed not to the whence from which we had come, but the whither toward which we sensed the Spirit was leading us. Identity was a major concern. We used the new name to create a new sense of identity. That new identity prepared us as a congregation to be open and ready to receive all who came, © Grand Valley State University   �A Call To Ecumenical Community Richard A. Rhem Page 2   encouraged to come because the new name projected a new image into the larger community, an image of openness offering the healing grace of Jesus Christ. Identity Arises Out of Vision Identity as Christ's community, a genuinely ecumenical expression of the Body of Christ, was not arrived at through careful study and introspection, but rather arose spontaneously out of the vision of being an ecumenical community. That vision is true to our Reformed heritage at its best. Calvin was deeply concerned for the reunion of the Church. In his book The History and Character of Calvinism, J. T. McNeill writes: His warm response to Archbishop Cranmer's proposal for a consensus (1552) (He would cross ten seas if he could be of service), and his return to this project in a letter to Archbishop Parker (1560) suggesting the summoning of a meeting of Protestant clergy 'wherever dispersed', are among many proofs of his constant readiness to promote the consolidation of the Churches of the Reformation. Late in 1560 he proposed ‘a free and universal council’ to end the divisions and ‘reunite all Christianity!’ He even declared his willingness that the pope should preside in the Council on condition that he undertake to submit to its decisions. (p. 200) Over the years of our history we have not exhibited the same passion for unity as we find in Calvin, although, along with much parochialism and fearful defensiveness, there has always been an ecumenical impulse. On the basis of the past fifteen years at the local parish level I can say without qualification that a Reformed heritage can find true expression in the creation of a genuinely ecumenical community that embraces the whole spectrum of Christian tradition. We have become a truly ecumenical community. Diversity is the consistent hallmark of Christ Community. We have grown with persons from a wide diversity of traditions and confessional backgrounds. We have maintained a marked theological posture shaped by the Reformed tradition, the very personal nature of relationship to God out of our roots in Protestant pietism, the radicality of Grace of the Lutheran tradition, openness to the Spirit's manifestation from the Charismatic community, and the richness of liturgy and sacramental understanding of the Catholic and Episcopal traditions. Such diversity has been self-consciously embraced and cultivated. There is a little something to remind everyone of their roots and thus to be “at home.” Yet the central focus on grace and the real embodiment of grace — the possession of all the diverse traditions — is so dominant that diversity is transcended in a deeper sense of the unity that makes us one in Christ Jesus. The blending of traditions has made for a rich tapestry: we have become a “Christ Community!” It was that vision that captivated us in the beginning. The vision was the catalyst, the driving force. It has been realized through the breaking up of traditionalism, © Grand Valley State University �A Call To Ecumenical Community Richard A. Rhem Page 3   what Jeroslav Pelikan calls the dead faith of the living and the forging of a new tradition, what he calls the living faith of the dead. Vision Must Be Intentionally Implemented Forging a new tradition, bringing the Eternal Gospel to new expression is precisely the genius of the Reformed Faith at its best. It must be worked at selfconsciously and intentionally. In honest confrontation with the Scripture and in obedience to Christ, a church must determine what the Spirit is calling it to be and then work self-consciously to that end. Some years ago we attempted to articulate what we felt we were being called to be. This is how we perceived our identity: Christ Community is theologically self-conscious; it is catholic, evangelical and reformed. It is firmly rooted in the historic Christian tradition: catholic in that it seeks to express the one, holy, and apostolic faith symbolized in the Apostles Creed; evangelical in that it believes that God's supreme revelation of Himself and the Good News of His grace appeared in Jesus Christ — “Our message is that God was making friends of all persons through Christ”; reformed in that its articulation of the faith finds its authority in the Scriptures and is never finished, but rather needs constant reformation and new translation, that it may be understood afresh in every age. Believing in God's eternal purposes of love for the whole created order, ours is a theology of Grace. Grace is the heart of our theology, and the Church is that community of persons who have received God's grace in Christ and who extend that grace to one another in Jesus' name. In the proclamation of the Word in worship, the nurturing of the community in study, the life of the community in fellowship and the action of the community in mission, grace is the keynote, the needs of persons primary, and the healing and wholeness of persons realizing their full human potential to the glory of God, our goal. Believing in the Sovereignty of God in the totality of the created order, and in the Lordship of Christ in the full range of human existence, we are seeking to bring the whole of life under the aegis of God's gracious rule — fashioning here a center for creative Christian living, enabling a fully human existence.... We sought to envision our ministry as we entered the present decade. The following posture has informed us: Our world has become so small, the means of communication and data processing so sophisticated and effective and society so dynamic that it is very difficult to foresee very far into the future trends and movements which may develop. Thus, it is not fruitful to project with fine details the shape of the future ministry of the Church. In such a rapidly changing world it is imperative that a congregation have a clear sense of identity, knowing who it is, what it is seeking to become and the mission to which it is committed. Having set that forth in the previous section, we seek here to affirm that it is our intention to be sensitive to the shifting scenes of the © Grand Valley State University �A Call To Ecumenical Community Richard A. Rhem Page 4   religio-cultural spectrum and flexible in our structure and program, ready to engage the human situation at any point at which the Good News can be proclaimed and incarnated.... Believing that God is ahead of us and beckons us from the future, we will test the spirits of the age, open ourselves to the expanding horizons of knowledge and encourage the pursuit of truth along the whole spectrum of human endeavor. Faithful to Jesus Christ and true to ourselves, we will shape our structure and our program and execute our mission with openness, freedom and confidence in the coming Kingdom of God. Such a posture finds expression throughout the life of the congregation. Perhaps the most visible expression of what we have become takes place in corporate worship. Here we have sought to be true to our Reformed heritage while enriching it by reaching back into the Catholic tradition. We have made a self-conscious decision to move from the principle of catechetical preaching which is the rule of our Book of Church Order, to the celebration of the Christian Year. Rather than systematically treating the heads of doctrine contained in the Heidelberg Catechism once in four years, we celebrate the cycle of the Christian Year bringing us from Advent in December through Pentecost in June, focusing on the themes of Incarnation, life of Christ, passion, death, resurrection and ascension and the gift of the Spirit. Throughout the summer we deal with the Old Testament and in the fall celebrate our Reformation heritage. Adopting the Christian Year as the determinant for our worship, we have — again, self-consciously — combined the strength of the Reformation tradition with the strength of the Catholic tradition… In seriousness of preparation and care in execution we have sought to have the mark of excellence on all we offer to God in our worship, recognizing that worship is recognizing His “worth!” Our worship is theo-centric, reflective of our Reformed heritage. Emotional stirring, warm feeling, inspiration, comfort and encouragement are certainly important byproducts of worship, but they are byproducts of offering praise and adoration to God. It is in drawing the worshiper out of herself/himself into self-forgetfulness and into God-consciousness that the people of God are truly blessed — a joy and peace grounded in the truth of God’s being and His grace in Jesus Christ. If the glory of God is kept in focus, then the drama of redemption which we remember, re-enact, anticipate, will sweep the worshiper along and, becoming God-intoxicated, will find his/her life inspired, spirit renewed, hope restored, faith quickened. Then one will find new courage to go on again, new insight whereby to gain meaning, understanding. © Grand Valley State University �A Call To Ecumenical Community Richard A. Rhem Page 5   Identity and Context of Ministry Identity arises out of a vision and then the vision must be brought to expression deliberately and intentionally; and finally, the contours of the vision must continue to be adjusted in terms of the historical context of the Church. At times the tides of society may reinforce the vision and aid in its implementation. At other times the vision may have to be pursued against the tide. We have found the latter to be the case. In 1972, Dean Kelly's book, Why Conservative Churches Are Growing, painted the portrait of what kind of church could expect to grow in the present sociological climate. The portrait was diametrically opposite of the vision which we were seeking to realize. Kelly has proved to be a prophet. As the authors of Habits of the Heart declare: ...To the extent that privatization succeeded, religion was in danger of becoming, like the family, “a haven in a heartless world,” but one that did more to reinforce that world, by caring for its casualties, than to challenge its assumptions. (p. 224) In a recent national sampling of Catholic opinion, the two things most desired were “personal and accessible priests” and “warmer, more personal parishes!” The authors [of Habits of the Heart] comment, The salience of these needs for personal intimacy in American religious life suggests why the local Church like other voluntary communities, indeed like the contemporary family, is so fragile, requires so much energy to keep it going, and has so faint a hold on commitment when such needs are not met. (p. 232) RCA Identity? The search for identity in the Reformed Church in America must be an endeavor to discover who God is calling us to be that we may move toward renewed faithfulness in our witness to the Gospel of His grace. It must not be an attempt to shape a community of convenience for a people wanting to feel good in an association of warm hearted, like-thinking others. To cater to that impulse identified as increasingly prominent in our society by Bellah and the others in Habits of the Heart would be to prostitute the Church and deny her Lord. We ought never to live easily with the reality of denominationalism and the tension must be kept on us as we search for our identity as a denomination. In his recently published book, Foolishness to the Greeks, Lesslie Newbigin calls for a confrontation of Western Culture by the Gospel. In the final chapter, “What Must We Be? The Call To The Church,” Newbigin writes: © Grand Valley State University �A Call To Ecumenical Community Richard A. Rhem Page 6   The Church is the bearer to all nations of a gospel that announces the kingdom, the reign, and the sovereignty of God, and so to become corporately a sign, instrument, and foretaste of that sovereignty of the one true and living God over all nature, all nations, and all human lives. It is not meant to call men and women out of the world into a safe religious enclave but to call them out in order to send them back as agents of God's kingship. (p. 124) What does such a calling imply? Newbigin asks. Believing we are at a major transitional point in Western Culture not unlike the upheaval in the time of Augustine when he formulated for Christendom a vision based on the twin dogmas of Trinity and Incarnation in place of the classical vision that had lost its power, Newbigin lists seven essentials for the Church if it is to engage the culture with the Gospel. I cite only one essential — The necessity of a radical theological critique of the theory and practice of denominationalism. He writes: It is the common observation of sociologists of religion that denominationalism is the religious aspect of secularization. It is the form that religion takes in a culture controlled by the ideology of the Enlightenment. It is the social form in which the privatization of religion is expressed. The denomination provides a shelter for those who have made the same choice. It is thus in principle unable to confront the state and society as a whole with the claim with which Jesus confronted Pilate — the claim of the truth. It is not, in any biblical sense, the Church, (p. 145) Such a Church, either as a denomination or as several denominations joined in “reconciled diversity” cannot be the agents of a missionary confrontation with our culture, Newbigin claims, for the simple reason that they are themselves the outward and visible signs of an inward and spiritual surrender to the ideology of our culture. They cannot confront our culture with the witness of the truth since even for themselves they do not claim to be more than associations of individuals who share the same private opinions. (p. 145ff) What is needed? A genuinely ecumenical movement...a movement seeking to witness to the Lordship of Christ over the whole inhabited oikoumene cannot take the form of a federation of denominations. It must patiently seek again what the Reformers sought — “To restore the face of the Catholic Church!” (p. 146) That is precisely the genius of our heritage. Perhaps we will recover that sense of being the one holy catholic Church, demonstrating in our life an inclusiveness which embraces diversity and offering our life for the realization of the unity of © Grand Valley State University �A Call To Ecumenical Community Richard A. Rhem Page 7   the whole Church and the recovery of the true identity of the People of God in the world. References: Robert Bellah et al. Habits of the Heart: Individualism and Commitment in American Life. First published 1985; University of California Press, New Preface edition, 2007 Lesslie Newbigin. Foolishness to the Greeks: The Gospel and Western Culture. Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 1986. © Grand Valley State University � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. References Robert Bellah et al, Habits of the Heart, 1985, Lesslie Newbigin, Foolishness to the Greeks, 1986. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RA-4-19870301 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1987-03-01 Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Title A name given to the resource R.C.A. Identity: A Call to Ecumenical Community Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available New Brunswick Theological Seminary Newsletter Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource eng Description An account of the resource Article created, delivered, or published by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on March 1, 1987 entitled "R.C.A. Identity: A Call to Ecumenical Community", it appeared in New Brunswick Theological Seminary Newsletter, Vol 15, pp. 11-13. Tags: Ecumenical, Reformed Church, Diversity, Liturgical Year, Community of Grace. Scripture references: Robert Bellah et al, Habits of the Heart, 1985, Lesslie Newbigin, Foolishness to the Greeks, 1986. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Community of Grace Diversity Ecumenical Liturgical Year Reformed Church https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6d849180ee042e274227ca09da5896cc.pdf e4ad402279d58bd9cd5f11d405cd1975 PDF Text Text Re-Imagining the Faith: A Theological Pilgrimage Richard A. Rhem Page 1 Re-imagining the Faith: A Theological Pilgrimage Richard A. Rhem Introductory Reflections for the Articles Page December 12, 2012 At my retirement in 2004, Christ Community Church was exceedingly gracious in so many ways, one of which was to collect a number of my sermons and publish them under the title Re-Imagining the Faith. I could not have named it as well; it succinctly expressed the story of my thirty-seven years as pastor of that congregation. It was at the First Reformed Church of Spring Lake, Michigan, that I was ordained to the Christian ministry on June 30, 1960. From 1960, just out of seminary, to 1964 I served that Spring Lake congregation. During those four years I was in no way seeking to re-imagine the Christian faith; in fact, I would have been threatened by the thought. My understanding of Christian faith was orthodox, evangelical in the Reformed tradition as conveyed by the Dutch Reformed Church rooted in the Netherlands and brought to this country in the nineteenth century emigration from the Netherlands. It was, however, in those four years through pastoral experience that my orthodoxy was being tested. That whole story is critical to my theological pilgrimage, but I won’t go into it here, except to say that a move to a very conservative, evangelical Reformed congregation in New Jersey [in 1964] only accentuated my struggle, which was really about the view and authority of Scripture. I left New Jersey for the Netherlands to pursue post-graduate studies. I was indeed fortunate to be received and accepted by Professor Dr. Hendrikus Berkhof, Professor of Dogmatics at Leiden University. As I was leaving his study after my first appointment with him in the early Spring of 1967, I saw a piece of paper pinned on a drape, on which was written: Our little systems have their day; They have their day and cease to be; They are but broken lights of Thee, And Thou, O Lord, art more than they. In those lines by Alfred Lord Tennyson I knew I had found my teacher and my task. My little system had had its day; I longed to find the Sacred Mystery toward whom my little system, now broken, had pointed. Though I had earned a Master of Divinity and a Master of Theology following my BA from Hope College, I was about to embark for the first time in my life on an intellectual and spiritual quest with an open mind and heart – seeking truth wherever it might lead me. For the first time in my life I began with questions rather than answers to be proven and confirmed. It was a liberating moment; finally I was ready to learn. © Grand Valley State University �Re-Imagining the Faith: A Theological Pilgrimage Richard A. Rhem Page 2 Lest I be misunderstood, my failure to gain an education, to learn, was not the fault of the institutions from which I attained degrees, nor the teachers who taught me. To be sure, a denominational seminary has not the task to lead students to new visions of the faith but rather to teach the faith system, the confessional foundation of the church that supports it and governs it. That being said, I must confess the problem was mine. All my energy and intellectual gifts were committed to learning and then teaching evangelical Reformed faith. The last word had been spoken; now it was my calling to proclaim and teach it. And I was deadly serious about it. But no longer. After my little system began to break in those seven years of pastoral ministry, I knew I had to begin again to see if indeed I could come to new insight and understanding that would enable me still to be a Christian minister with a message in which I could passionately believe and proclaim. The fact that at my retirement a book of my sermons was published with the title ReImagining the Faith is the finest tribute I could receive, witnessing to the journey that began in the late 60’s under the guidance of Professor Berkhof and that continued all the years after my return to the Spring Lake congregation in 1971. Through all those years I was about re-imagining the faith and, even in retirement, the journey continues. As I look back over my ministry that continued in Spring Lake following my four-year European sojourn, I realize that what I essentially gained was an ability to think theologically, to think critically. No longer was there a set confessional system of theological propositions to be explained and defended. I was full of wondering, of questioning, of questing for a deeper understanding of biblical faith in the context of contemporary culture. My new posture found expression in preaching and teaching but it was with the birth of the journal Perspectives, a Journal of Reformed Thought in 1986 that I began to articulate that new posture on central theological/biblical themes. My first article was on the theology of Robert Schuller as I will describe below. But from then on I addressed some critical themes that reflected my own groping for a new understanding of biblical faith. As I was working on the thread of those pieces I received a note from Professor Dr. Hendrik Hart who had begun reading the articles I had given him. In response to questions he raised, I gave some background about my experience in the RCA. Our correspondence I include here: Email from Hendrik Hart, November 20, 2012: ... I’m reading Dick’s articles in Perspectives. I was entirely unprepared for them because Dick keeps saying that he was a latecomer in moving beyond conservatism. But the first piece, from 1987, digs into the God-Jesus-male cluster with a vengeance. And so it is with most of the pieces. They are radical in choice of topic, position and approach. They © Grand Valley State University �Re-Imagining the Faith: A Theological Pilgrimage Richard A. Rhem Page 3 are not mealy-mouthed either. The language is clear, direct, and hard-hitting. I would have thought that, early in the game, the pastoral side might emerge, knowing how upset conservatives might be. Not so. So where’s the conservatism? The only evidence for Dick’s pleading a late start in getting beyond conservatism is that the style of argument has not been touched by the then rising postmodern spirit. But that took time for all of us. OK, if I’m near the mark with this, how would you characterize where you were in 1987, Dick? What readings or experiences would have spawned those articles and how did you expect they would be perceived? By your congregation, by your classis, by Perspectives readers? I am curious because, if I go by my own memories, I think there was a mixture of urgency and naiveté. In 1983 I wrote “Must I Believe in God as Father?” in The Banner. It was a soapbox piece and the editor and I had previously discussed at length how this should be done. I think I wrote very carefully, so I was fully unprepared for the storm of invective that broke over me, as well as for the complete silence of supporters. Only now (right now!) does it occur to me that the problem may well not have been the piece as such (it was about praying to God as Mother), but the heading. Why did I not see that 30 years ago? So, if you can, tell us something about why you may have written things possibly unaware of how they would be perceived or of how you would endanger yourself. Did you know you were taking risks? Reply from Richard Rhem: Henk, great to hear from you and I am pleased you are reading the articles. It so happens that I have spent over a week gathering my writings over the years of my ministry post Netherlands. (I have a few more for you, especially two pieces that appeared in The Reformed Review, Western Seminary’s journal. In 1972 I gave a lecture at Western which was published in The Reformed Review – “A Theological Conception of Reality as History – Some Aspects of the Thinking of Wolfhart Pannenberg.” Then in 1986 I wrote in a [tribute] for Gene Osterhaven – “Theological Method: The Search for a New Paradigm in a Pluralistic Age” – which dealt with Küng’s paradigm change in connection with Tracy and referring to Gadamer, etc. Those three pieces were received quite well. Then the RCA founded Perspectives. I just found the first editorial by Rev. Dr. James Van Hoeven – first editor and major figure behind the project. (That he was brother-inlaw to Ed Mulder, General Secretary, got the Journal underway.) Jim wanted me on the board of editors and immediately asked that I write about Schuller’s new reformation. I had been inspired by Bob Schuller upon my return from the Netherlands - my leadership people felt, having been out of the country for four years, I needed such exposure. It worked. Within four months of beginning again in Spring Lake, the First Reformed Church became Christ Community and a second service in the morning was added (and eventually a third). About 28 of our people attended Schuller’s Institute for Successful Church Leadership. But Bob Schuller was under fire for his book New Reformation and being too easy on sin!! Therefore Jim Van Hoeven thought I should do an article on Schuller. It was quite well received. You ask about whether I wrote with awareness of reaction from the church. I’m sure I was naive but, according to Jim’s first editorial, this new journal’s purpose was to “engage issues that reformed Christians meet in personal, ecclesiastical, and societal life.” It also aimed to be in conversations that “help shape the identity and mission of the Reformed Church in America.” © Grand Valley State University �Re-Imagining the Faith: A Theological Pilgrimage Richard A. Rhem Page 4 Jim continues, “If in the process, Perspectives can enable a community of scholars to be formed – women and men from within the church who bridge race, region, and discipline, who enjoy the give and take of thoughtful discourse, and who do not mind if their Sundays sometimes get pretty rough [an allusion to a Mark Twain quote with which he opened] – this enterprise will have fulfilled its expectations.” The editorial moves to a quote from Robert Bly: “Certainty lives on either side of the border, but truth lives on the border.” Jim continues, “The editors of Perspectives will push themselves and the church toward that border, theologically. This means, on the one hand, Perspectives will affirm and deepen the richness of the Reformed tradition. Tradition tells us who we are, gives us a definition, a point from which to set our course, and reminds us ‘we belong...to our faithful Savior Jesus Christ.’ And yet truth lives on the border. The danger of too much tradition is that it turns a good thing into idolatry. The church’s faith and life must always be creative. …holding to the tradition, being creative, living on the border is part of what it means to be Reformed, according to the Word of God.” That was January, 1986, the first issue. Perspectives was initially sent free of charge to ministers, members of boards and agencies, elders on request. It was to engage the leadership of the RCA in creative conversation. I really believed that, naive as I was... It is coincidental that you raise the questions my writings raised as your brother Peter has asked me to write an overview of the thread that runs through my articles to introduce them on a Web site of an archive of my work. I have begun writing after sorting through piles of files. That piece will answer some of your questions, but let me respond to your questions regarding my being a late bloomer. Throughout my education I was trying to reinforce the faith structure of my childhood. I never challenged or raised a question. Yet, beneath my sturdy dogmatism, there was an insecurity: I wondered if the faith/church would survive – not because it wasn’t God’s truth but because the darkness arrayed against the light was formidable. A pastoral experience in Spring Lake showed me that an inerrant, infallible Bible wasn’t enough. During my last year there, the Covenant Life curriculum from the RCA/Presbyterians came out. I taught the foundation papers in Spring Lake and then introduced the curriculum to the New Jersey congregation. It created an uproar from a few who felt it was weak on Scripture [long story]. For me – finally owning my own questions – it was very helpful. I knew I would have to spend years bringing that congregation around or make good on my desire to go to the Netherlands for postgrad work. Berkhof accepted me and proved a great mentor and friend. Thus began my first real education because finally I was open to the quest. But, Henk, I was 32! Four years in Leiden and my return to Spring Lake where I began to preach out of the reservoir of the Leiden years. This I knew: the orthodox view of Scripture was the bottleneck. I felt a real freedom to explore in that marvelous community. I taught Berkhof’s Christian Faith, Küng’s On Being a Christian and Does God Exist? Coming from a serious study of Pannenberg, I was ready for Küng whom I came to appreciate deeply. I mentioned my writings/lectures in The Reformed Review in 1972 and 1986. These were about the theological method. But, as I wrote earlier, it was Perspectives that gave me the occasion to address issues before the church. Yes, I was naive, but I was also totally free in bringing to expression © Grand Valley State University �Re-Imagining the Faith: A Theological Pilgrimage Richard A. Rhem Page 5 what I had been thinking about. Now I was 51, Henk: no youngster, but just finding my voice. I was blessed with a congregation that allowed me to “think out loud”. That was my preaching style and it was a safe and honest place. Thus when Perspectives came along I expressed myself quite honestly. The “Habit of God’s Heart” piece I knew was treading on dangerous terrain, but I tried to be careful, wondering but also being honest about my hope that God’s grace was universal. As time moved on I got the assignments that were controversial because I was a pastor in a safe place. I think there was only one other pastor on the board of Perspectives. The rest were professors at colleges or the seminaries and were reluctant to take on the themes I tackled. So, my conservatism in the traditional form ended when I left for Leiden in 1967. From there I had to begin again. I consumed book after book. Berkhof would say, “You must begin to write,” but I said, “I just found six more footnotes leading to a dozen more books!” Trying to answer your questions: by 1987 I had been engaged in serious theological reading/thinking for 20 years. Perspectives gave me the opportunity to bring to expression all I had been thinking/teaching/preaching about. I felt safe and confident and thus put myself on the line. Perspectives was not the Church Herald, read by RCA lay folk. The Banner was something else. You wrote in a very much more conservative context to a well-informed readership in the bastion of Calvinist orthodoxy. As for “the silence of supporters,” I know that well. When my Grace article appeared, I was teaching homiletics at Western. A colleague also on the board of editors, present and participating in the discussion about the theme, in favor of my writing...but when the storm rose, in a faculty meeting asked, “Why did you feel you had to write that piece?” He also, I’m told, said if I had changed six words there would have been no problem. I must say, Henk, it never occurred to me that I would get into trouble. My congregation was solidly supportive and I had fine collegial relationships with the RCA leadership and I honestly felt I was being a positive influence for good in the RCA. In the end it was not RCA leadership but young, threatened pastors in the Muskegon Classis that spelled my demise in the RCA. It is all quite a story. And now to return to the thread of my articles. My second Perspectives piece was entitled “Karl Barth: Preaching and Theological Renewal.” I set forth Barth’s own experience of preaching and the high regard he had for the preaching moment – very inspiring. But then, in a series of articles, I addressed contemporary issues in the Church and my own deepening grasp of those issues. February 1987, pp. 4-6: “An Accident of the Incarnation.” The issue was the male domination of the church. I argued that the maleness of the Incarnation was an “accident,” not of the essence of God’s revelation in human flesh. In the January 1988 issue, I wrote a piece, “Purgatory Revisited.” Hans Küng at the University of Michigan in the Fall of 1983 lectured on questions surrounding death, © Grand Valley State University �Re-Imagining the Faith: A Theological Pilgrimage Richard A. Rhem Page 6 heaven, hell and the future, subsequently published under the title Eternal Life. Küng got me to thinking. I suspect it was a beginning step toward the hope of universal grace. In the September 1988, issue I brought to full expression my hope and growing conviction that God’s grace would finally bring all God’s children home. The piece, entitled “The Habits of God’s Heart”, elicited major responses from RCA ministers and the public readership – positive and negative, the latter predominant. In the April 1991, issue I became even bolder. I wrote of my growing conviction that my faith community, the community of Reformed faith issuing from Calvin’s Geneva by way of the Netherlands had never come to terms with the Enlightenment - the place of critical rationality and historical consciousness in the understanding of the Christian credal tradition as espoused by the Reformed community in this country. It was Hendrikus Berkhof’s Two Hundred Years of Theology that made me aware that the community of which I was a part “was not even engaged in the struggle.” The article was entitled “Sleeping Through a Revolution.” As one can well imagine, I got some serious response, including from my beloved theology professor, Dr. Eugene Osterhaven – who treated me gently however. Someone challenged me on biblical grounds, on my use of Scripture. That drove me on to my next piece, “The Book That Binds Us” in the December 1992, issue. My bold contention was that the Bible is being misused. It is being asked to function in a way it can no longer be expected to function, a way it was never intended to function. In the March 1993, issue I returned to the theme of “An Accident of the Incarnation” with a focus on God language. I wrote in collaboration with my colleague, Colette Volkema De Nooyer, who did the major work. In the May 1995 issue, I “completed” as it were the thread I was weaving with an article “Interreligious Dialogue – What is Required of Us?” I had recognized long since that the orthodox understanding of Jesus’ death as atonement blocked openness to the other in interfaith discussion. In this piece I gave that full expression. The article concluded: My intention is not to advocate Hick or Ogden or any other thinker who is addressing the matter of interreligious dialogue. Rather, I wish to point to the necessity of honestly drawing out the consequences of the recognition that human grasp of the truth develops, evolves, and needs ongoing assessment and adjustment – and sometimes conceptions need to be rejected. By use of historical imagination, the originating experience that gave rise to a theological formulation needs to be recovered in order to express the same reality differently, in order to make the experience available in a totally different cultural context. Rather than seeing this as a burden, a cause for fear and defensiveness, it should be seen as an exciting challenge. Is not such a pursuit of the truth to love God with mind as well as heart? And is not the recognition that every biblical and theological expression is marked by the human and historical limitations that adhere to all human thought the © Grand Valley State University �Re-Imagining the Faith: A Theological Pilgrimage Richard A. Rhem Page 7 reason there is need for continual reformation? To be Reformed is not to be in possession of a set of timeless and eternal truths but, rather, to refuse to absolutize any human arrangement or formulation. It is not to be saddled with a set of truths that were once new, innovative, and destabilizing of the established order of the sixteenth century, or the first century. It is an approach, a spirit, a posture that is open to new knowledge, fresh insight, and cumulative human experience within historical development. The church has managed to spend the century in a state of schizophrenia, pursuing research in the academy and sharing the results in the lecture hall, while the liturgy, prayers, hymns, and sermons have given little evidence of the honest engagement with insights of the modern period. My mentor, Hendrikus Berkhof, claimed the only heresy was to make the gospel boring. I would add another – the heresy of orthodoxy, the evidence of a failure of nerve and lack of trust in the living God. It is the heresy of an inordinate lust for certitude that seeks premature closure, the shutting down of the quest for truth and growth of knowledge in the magnificent and mysterious cosmos by the creatures whom the Creator calls to consciousness and embraces in a Grace that pervades the unfolding cosmic process. © Grand Valley State University � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Series Introduction to Articles Page in Web Archive Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RA-4-20121212 Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Title A name given to the resource Re-imagining the Faith: A Theological Pilgrimage Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource eng Description An account of the resource Introduction to the Articles created, delivered, or published by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) entitled "Re-imagining the Faith: A Theological Pilgrimage", as part of the series "Introduction to Articles Page in Web Archive". Tags: Spiritual Quest, Reformed Theology, Authority of Scripture, Critical Thinking, Universal Grace, Orthodoxy, Nature of Religion, Sacred Mystery. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-12-12 Authority of Scripture Critical Thinking Nature of Religion Orthodoxy Reformed Theology Sacred Mystery Spiritual Quest Universal Grace https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/93aed9789a39f61b02a11edf6161b98a.pdf 206ce9e3f9177d7e4dccb6bfa35ace3c PDF Text Text As One Without Authority Article by Richard A. Rhem Minister of Preaching and Theological Inquiry Christ Community Church Spring Lake, Michigan Published in Free Spirit A Quarterly Publication of Fountain Street Church, Grand Rapids, Michigan Summer 2001 During a brief stint when I taught Homiletics, I gathered a number of books on the art of preaching, one of which had a title which struck me and has always remained with me - As One Without Authority. It was authored by Fred Craddock, perhaps the premier professor of preaching in the country for over three decades. The title registered so deeply with me because it was the most concise and profound description of the preacher I had ever encountered. First published in 1971, the book was Craddock's response to the “crisis of preaching” which was being widely discussed at the time. Preaching had been receiving very negative press, the whole discipline called in question, and there was experimentation in alternatives to the traditional sermon. In the wake of the tumultuous sixties and the challenge to all of society's structures and institutions, including the church, there was serious doubt as to the viability of the church in general and especially the sermon as an effective instrument of communication in particular. Craddock addressed the issue head on, acknowledging the legitimacy of much of the criticism of traditional preaching, but affirming his continuing confidence in the place and power of the spoken word. But the only hope for preaching in the present historical context was for the preacher to recognize that he or she was “as one without authority.” Of course, this had been true since the rise of the Modern age, especially in the wake of the Enlightenment, and classical Liberalism of the nineteenth century was an attempt to accommodate the Christian faith tradition to the knowledge of the modern world. The Liberal movement was a recognition of the loss of all forms of authoritarianism - of tradition in Eastern orthodoxy, of the church in Roman Catholicism, and the Bible in Protestantism. Still, in large measure, these respective confessional traditions managed to ward off the acids of modernity and operate as though the traditional sources of authority remained in place. © Grand Valley State University   �As One Without Authority Richard A. Rhem Page 2   That was my experience. Graduating from seminary in 1960 and assuming my first pastorate in Spring Lake in the congregation I now serve (although after four years I left for a period of seven years, returning in 1971), I came armed with “the authoritative Word of God.” The Bible, inspired by the Holy Spirit, was inerrant and infallible. The preacher's authority lay in the faithful exposition of the biblical text. Even though serious biblical criticism had been around since the late eighteenth century, it was not seriously engaged in the conservative evangelical tradition. But, after seven years of pastoral experience and preaching, I found my authoritarian foundation crumbling. As I became aware of a critical approach to scripture, it was no longer possible for me simply to assert, “The Bible says ....” I had to begin again. I needed a new foundation if I were to continue in a preaching ministry. A European pilgrimage that lasted for four years was not simply a quest for an academic degree, but an existential quest for a religious faith I could believe in with intellectual integrity and preach with authenticity. My search and research were intensive - and the quest continues, but of this I became convinced - there is no authoritarian claim that can ground authentic religious experience, whether the claim be grounded in tradition, church or scripture. The witness to religious experience - in my case, the witness of the preacher, is precisely that - it is witness. One stands within a valued tradition, the tradition is embodied in a community, and the community has a founding story which is the font of the tradition. One may believe the founding vision or event was the revelation, the manifestation, of the Sacred, of the Mystery that grounds Reality, but the expression that gives witness to the vision or that relates the event is human expression. All of the great religious traditions are human, imaginative constructs issuing from the founding experience. Someone has written that all of our present religions are the ossified remains of past prophetic and ecstatic visions. This being the case, one who preaches does so as "one without authority" - one witnesses to that of which one is convinced is good and true and beautiful in order to challenge, inspire, encourage, and comfort those who constitute the community. The preacher knows the tradition through long study and experience and seeks to understand the wisdom and insight that have come to expression in the tradition. And one must know one's own world, as well, having a sensitivity to present human experience, an awareness of what is playing upon one's contemporaries. Only then is one ready to address the community gathered in worship hoping to hear some word that will illumine the human situation. That word must come with authority, but without authoritarian claim. Dietrich Bonhoeffer described the difference thus: Someone can only speak to me with authority if a word from the deepest knowledge of my humanity encounters me here and now in all my reality; any other word is impotent. The word of the Church to the world must therefore encounter the world in all its present reality from the deepest © Grand Valley State University �As One Without Authority Richard A. Rhem Page 3   knowledge of the world, if it is to be authoritative. The Church must be able to say the Word of God, the word of authority, here and now, in the most concrete way possible, from knowledge of the situation. One can see the distinction between authority and authoritarian claim in the comment in the Gospel of Matthew at the conclusion of the Sermon on the Mount: Now when Jesus had finished saying these things, the crowds were astounded at his teaching, for he taught them as one having authority, and not as their scribes. The scribes represented the professional religious leadership, guardians of the tradition, whose office had authority, who operated within the established structures of an official religious institution. They made authoritarian claims, but something about Jesus' teaching outside the authorized system carried its own intrinsic authority - Jesus spoke to people and the word found resonance within them because he touched the vital nerve of their present existence. He pierced through to their soul; though he was one without authority, the integrity and authenticity of his word carried weight. Religion in general and Christianity in particular have been marked by authoritarian claims and have sought to control the people. Dostoevsky has the Grand Inquisitor in The Brothers Karamazov rail at Jesus, Thou didst desire man's free love, that he should follow thee freely,... there are three powers, three powers alone, able to conquer and to hold captive for ever the conscience of these impotent rebels for their happiness - those forces are miracle, mystery and authority. Thou hast rejected all three and hast set the example for doing so. Authority in the sense of an authoritarian claim has marked much of the story of the Church, but its day is past and, where it still exists and even seems to thrive, it is the shrill last gasp of a dying enterprise. What is true for the preacher who is as one without authority is true for all areas of religious leadership if we are seeking a spiritual religious experience, or a religion of Spirit. After some fifteen billion years this amazing cosmic drama on whose stage we have appeared relatively so recently has seen the emergence of Spirit. Whether one would speak of purpose and intentionality or prefer, rather, simply to stand in awed awareness at the creative process and revel in the mystery and miracle of the gift of life and of consciousness that enables one to contemplate the wonder of it all and be grateful, the fact is we know of a spiritual dimension as part of our human existence. And where there is Spirit, there is freedom. Where there is Spirit, there is non-coercion. Where there is Spirit, there is no authoritarian claim. © Grand Valley State University �As One Without Authority Richard A. Rhem Page 4   For the preacher, for the religious leader, for the whole enterprise of the Spirit, one must be as one without authority. In the Spirit, one bears witness to one's truth and it will find resonance or not; one offers a vision or a dream and it is embraced or not; to enforce one's word or demand adherence to one's plan can occur only in the absence of the Spirit. One will see it or not, understand it or not, offer allegiance or not. The Spirit's word and way must be embraced freely, affirmation being elicited without threat or coercion, for the Spirit has no power, is completely vulnerable - helpless unless one sees and freely follows. The Spirit is as one without authority and all that is spiritual is defenseless against contradiction. Spirit needs form and too often form is the death of Spirit. The institutionalizing of the Spirit in structures necessitates order and power and thus the dilemma and the question whether a spiritual institution is possible. The greater the success in terms of numbers, facilities, and staff, the greater the threat to the Spirit. The larger the program, the greater the need for large budgets and administrative oversight. Strategies for success seldom begin with the imperative to guard and protect the fragile and vulnerable Spirit. Yet, just as from matter has arisen Spirit embodied in the human, so the human needs community as the embodiment of Spirit. There is no other way. But, let the one who would address a word to such a community and one who would lead such a community recognize that such a one will always be as one without authority. That strong and vibrant religious institutions are possible is without question. History is replete with examples of dominating, controlling institutional religions ascribing their prosperity and power to the blessing of God. Triumphalism and arrogant assertion of divinely vested authoritarian rule have been ever present in the annals of religious history. Whitehead, in his Process and Reality writes, When the Western world accepted Christianity, Caesar conquered ... The brief Galilean vision of humility flickered throughout the ages, uncertainly ... The Church gave unto God the attributes which belonged exclusively to Caesar. Speaking of the Galilean origin of Christianity, Whitehead claims, It does not emphasize the ruling Caesar, or the ruthless morality, or the unmoved mover. It dwells upon the tender elements in the world, which slowly and in quietness operate by love; and it finds purpose in the present immediacy of a Kingdom not of this world. Love neither rules, nor is it unmoved; also it is a little oblivious as to morals. It does not look to the future, for it finds its own reward in the immediate present. (pp. 519f) © Grand Valley State University �As One Without Authority Richard A. Rhem Page 5   Surveying the religious landscape, one wonders if the fragile flower of the Spirit can survive, whether there will be eyes to see and ears to hear that truth that comes to expression without authority. © Grand Valley State University � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. References Fred Craddock. As One Without Authority, 1971, revised edition 2001. Alfred North Whitehead.Process and Reality (Gifford Lectures Delivered in Ediinburgh University1927-28), 1929, 2nd edition 1979. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RA-4-20010705 Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Title A name given to the resource As One Without Authority Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Free Spirit Journal Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource eng Description An account of the resource Article created, delivered, or published by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) entitled "As One Without Authority", it appeared in Free Spirit, Fountain Street Church, Summer 2001. Tags: Nature of Religion, Spirit, Freedom, Community of Faith. Scripture references: Fred Craddock. As One Without Authority, 1971, revised edition 2001. Alfred North Whitehead.Process and Reality (Gifford Lectures Delivered in Ediinburgh University1927-28), 1929, 2nd edition 1979. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2001-07-05 Community of Faith Freedom Nature of Religion Spirit https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9b1e3b6bf92dc4352d3a2c9168d15c49.pdf 126f2cdbdc0934a36a55a28aec8fcf98 PDF Text Text Jesus Article by Richard A. Rhem Minister of Preaching and Theological Inquiry Christ Community Church Spring Lake, Michigan Published in Free Spirit A Quarterly Publication of Fountain Street Church Grand Rapids, Michigan May 1999 In a recent study, The Human Christ, Charlotte Allen writes, In 1909, the Modernist Catholic theologian George Tyrrell complained that the liberal German biblical scholars of his day had reconstructed a historical Jesus who was no more than "The reflection of a liberal Protestant face, seen at the bottom of a deep well." In other words, the liberal searchers had found a liberal Jesus. The same can be said of the Jesus-searchers of every era: The deists found a deist, the Romantics a Romantic, the existentialists an existentialist, and the liberationists a Jesus of class struggle. Supposedly equipped with the latest critical and historical tools, the "scientific" quest for the historical Jesus has nearly always devolved into theology, ideology, and even autobiography. (P. 5) This has been widely recognized as being the case and I readily acknowledge it to be operative in my own reflection on the identity, life and teaching of Jesus of Nazareth. This criticism has been met head on by a contemporary Jesus scholar recognized for both the breadth of his research into Christian origins, cross-cultural studies, and carefully articulated methodology. John Dominic Crossan, in his The Birth of Christianity (1998), cites a poem, "For Once, Then, Something," by Robert Frost, Others taunt me with having knelt at well-curbs Always wrong to the light, so never seeing Deeper down in the well than where the water Gives me back in a shining surface picture , Me myself in the summer heaven, godlike, Looking out of a wreath of fern and cloud puffs. Once, when trying with chin against a well-curb, I discerned, as I thought, beyond the picture, © Grand Valley State University   �Jesus Richard A. Rhem Page 2   Through the picture, a something white, uncertain, Something more of the depths - and then I lost it. Crossan comments, There is an oft-repeated and rather cheap gibe that historical Jesus researchers are simply looking down a deep well and seeing their own reflections from below. I call it cheap for three reasons. First, those who use it against others seldom apply it to themselves. Second, it is almost impossible to imagine a reconstruction that could not be dismissed by the assertion of that gibe. Your Jesus is an apocalyptic: You are bemused by the approaching millennium,... What could anyone ever say that would not fall under that ban? Third, those who repeat that taunt so readily must never have looked down a deep well or heeded Emily Dickinson's warning (3.970, no. 1400): What mystery pervades a well!... But nature is stranger yet; The ones that cite her most Have never passed her haunted house, Nor simplified her ghost. Crossan continues, Imagine two alternative and opposite modes of historical reconstruction, one an impossible delusion, the other a possible illusion. The possible illusion is narcissism. You think you are seeing the past or the other when all you see is your own reflected present. You see only what was there before you began. You imprint your own present on the past and call it history. Narcissism sees its own face, and, ignoring the water that shows it up, falls in love with itself. It is the first of the twin images in Frost's poem. It is when, …the water Gives me back in a shining surface picture Me myself in the summer heaven, godlike, Looking out of a wreath of fern and cloud puffs. The impossible delusion is positivism. It imagines that you can know the past without any interference from your own personal and social situation as answer. You can see, as it were, without your own eye being involved. You can discern the past once and for all forever and see it pure and uncontaminated by that discernment. Positivism is the delusion that we can see the water without our own face being mirrored in it. It thinks we can see the surface without simultaneously seeing our own eyes. It is the © Grand Valley State University �Jesus Richard A. Rhem Page 3   second of the twin images in Frost's poem. It is when, even if only once, uncertainly, possibly, and vaguely, I discerned, as I thought, beyond the picture, Through the picture, a something white, uncertain, Something more of the depths - and then I lost it. But, I would ask, if the poet's face is white, how did it see "through the picture" of itself “a something white” that was also "beyond the picture"? Maybe what it saw was its own face so strangely different that it did not recognize it. That introduces a third image not given but provoked by Frost's second image. There is, therefore, a third alternative, and I'll call it interactivism, which is, incidentally, the way I understand post-modernism. The past and present must interact with one another, each changing and challenging the other, and the ideal is an absolutely fair and equal reaction between one another. Back to the well: You cannot see the surface without simultaneously seeing, disturbing, and distorting your own face; you cannot see your own face without simultaneously seeing, disturbing, and distorting the surface. It is the third image begging to be recognized behind the two overt ones in Frost's poem. What the poet saw was his own face so strangely different that he did not recognize it as such. It was., indeed "something white" and "something more of the depths." But it was not "beyond the picture" or even "through the picture." It was the picture itself changed utterly. That is the dialectic of interactivism and, as distinct from either narcissism or positivism, it is both possible and necessary. (Pp. 40f.) After illustrating his claim, Crossan writes, Historical reconstruction is always interactive of present and past. Even our best theories and methods are still our best ones. They are all dated and doomed not just when they are wrong but even (and especially) when they are right. They need, when anything important is involved, to be done over and over again. That does not make history worthless. We ourselves are also dated and doomed, but that does not make life worthless. (P. 45) Crossan does not speak of "search" or "quest" of Christian origins. That he sees as positivistic. Rather, he attempts a reconstruction and that, he says, must be done over and over again in different times and different places by different groups and different communities. I cite Crossan and Allen to acknowledge that "my Jesus" is not "The Jesus" of history. That Jesus cannot be definitively recovered. Allen's comment about the well has been the easy way to write off the quest. Crossan knows the danger but I © Grand Valley State University �Jesus Richard A. Rhem Page 4   think has, through careful method, eliminated some of the naiveté of earlier efforts. Even before the critique of mentors Duncan and Lester, I was aware that I was replicating the 19th-century liberal Jesus in some respects, but I was also aware that I had to move through that stage. It is not quite accurate, however, to identify the Jesus I have been attempting to reconstruct with that "Jesus, meek and mild." Several issues are involved in my movement from the classical Christological creedal affirmations to Jesus as a human being as the incarnation or embodiment of God or Spirit. I have been working at dismantling the creedal Christ for some time. (Theological reflection is really my focus rather than historical research or even biblical research.) But to dismantle the Christological formulae leaves me with an historical figure and the need to give some content to this figure. Another piece of the traditional orthodox understanding that I have for some years now moved away from is the idea of Jesus' death as atoning, making salvation possible and available. If Jesus did not come into the world to die for human sin, that is, if he is not a salvific figure, what came to expression in his life and teaching and why was he executed? Here is where the work of Crossan and Borg has been helpful to me. By recognizing the Jewishness of Jesus, putting him in his historical context through reconstruction of first-century Judaism under Roman domination and crosscultural studies, there emerges a picture of Jesus as social prophet in the Hebrew tradition who, through non-violent protest, stands against the structural injustice and systemic evil of his society in the name of the God of Israel who is marked by the demand for justice and compassion. This is not the highly moral and gentle Jesus of the 19th century. This one dies the way he dies because he lived the way he lived. I will not go on to argue this, but I think it can be given good biblical support as well as being consistent with our best sense of his social/economic/political context. Why bother so strenuously with Jesus? It is claimed the idea, the meaning of the whole historical/legendary/mythological phenomenon could simply be "thought," conceived by one who contemplated the whole human-divine relationship. Perhaps so. It is claimed Newton's whole grand mechanical model of the universe was a product not of empirical experimentation but of pure thought. But, as a matter of fact, the whole Christian tradition (including its Jewish womb) emerged in history. The "story" is rooted in history and the liturgical and ritual practice represent history as shaped by the early (biblical) interpretations. And story and ritual are critical for creating community -meaning is conveyed in the © Grand Valley State University �Jesus Richard A. Rhem Page 5   telling and action. As Whitehead claimed, it takes centuries to form such tradition. Thus, it seems to me that it is valuable to re-tell the old story and through serious research I think we can uncover that which provides the data by which to reconstruct this historical person who can credibly be offered as an embodiment of the love, grace, compassion and justice of God. The canonical Jesus, however, is no longer believable to one for whom biblical authority in the sense of authoritarian claim is no longer valid. We know the Jesus of the Gospels is the post-Easter Jesus of the early communities. The Christological titles ascribed to him post-Easter are ascriptions of faith arising out of the experience of those early believers. This is where biblical criticism becomes crucial. To be sure, determining which words and deeds go back to Jesus and which are "history metaphorized" by the biblical writers is an inexact science and total agreement will never be achieved. And it is also true that here one's presuppositions - maybe one's intuition - will operate in the selection process. But the moment one decides that the biblical text is not the word of God given by whatever process to the writer, but rather, a human book reflecting the religious experience or revelatory encounter of the writer, one cannot avoid such a discriminating approach to the text. The reconstruction will be the result of the engagement with the text, interaction with the text and the best one can do is be aware of one's pre-understanding and endeavor as honestly as possible to hear the text. Now, in regard to the concatenation of texts gathered by Lester, I obviously hear the voice of the early communities. There is sharp debate as to whether Jesus held the apocalyptic view. I think he moved away from John the Baptist because he did not share that view. If he did think of himself as returning in clouds of heaven soon, of course he was simply wrong - as was Paul! In any case, I would argue that the Jesus of my reconstruction is not a candidate for Rotary. I have explained above why I do not simply shake loose of Jesus - he roots our story, concretizes the image of God. But, I think the Spirit has been embodied in others whose lives shine with revelatory luminosity. And further, I believe that which came to intense expression in him is the truth for all of us - if we have eyes to see it, and seeing it is salvation here and now, knowing the miracle, wonder and glory of being alive, and that's not bad for one without Christology, an authoritative scripture, doctrine of atonement, or ecclesiastical credential! References: Charlotte Allen. The Human Christ: The Search for the Historical Jesus. FreePress, 1998. © Grand Valley State University �Jesus Richard A. Rhem Page 6   John Dominic Crossan. The Birth of Christianity: Discovering What Happened in the Years Immediately After the Execution of Jesus. HarperOne, 1999. © Grand Valley State University � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. References Charlotte Allen, The Human Christ, 1998, John Dominic Crossan, The Birth of Christianity, 1999 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RA-4-19990501 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1999-05-01 Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Title A name given to the resource Jesus Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Free Spirit Journal Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource eng Description An account of the resource Article created, delivered, or published by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on May 1, 1999 entitled "Jesus", it appeared in Free Spirit, Fountain Street Church. Tags: Historical Jesus, Reimagining the Faith, Critical Thinking, Postmodern, Justice. Scripture references: Charlotte Allen, The Human Christ, 1998, John Dominic Crossan, The Birth of Christianity, 1999. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Critical Thinking Historical Jesus Justice PostModern Reimagining the Faith https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2308a79f451e0b7b398aae5a37b33baf.pdf 759320894839a494b0e424d7e7761f03 PDF Text Text The Analogical Imagination: Christian Theology and the Culture of Pluralism By David Tracy (The Crossroads Publishing Company, 1998) Review By Richard A. Rhem Minister of Preaching and Theological Inquiry Christ Community Church Spring Lake, Michigan Publication of Review Unknown In the Preface to his study David Tracy states the task he sets out for himself: The need is to form a new and inevitably complex theological strategy that will avoid privatism by articulating the genuine claims of religions to truth (p. xi). He claims that theology, by its very nature, asks fundamental existential questions because theology reflects on the reality of God, but it must develop public, not private, criteria and discourse. Recognizing theology addresses three publics: society, academy and church, each of which demands public criteria and discourse, Tracy’s main focus is on Systematic Theology, which he understands as fundamentally a hermeneutical enterprise and his development of that understanding is to claim, The issue of both the meaning and truth of religion is related to the analogous issue of the meaning and truth of art. The central claim advanced is a claim to both meaning and truth in our common human experience of any classic. (p. xii). Tracy recognizes the contemporary emergence of a sociological imagination which he sees as analogous to the earlier rise of historical consciousness and it is in such a social reality that the theologian must work. In such a context the theologian makes his claim. What is that claim? A claim to public response bearing meaning and truth on the most serious and difficult questions, both personal and communal, that any human being or society must face: Has existence any ultimate meaning? Is a fundamental trust to be found amidst the fears, anxieties and terror of existence? Is there some reality, some force, even some one, who speaks a word of truth that can be recognized and trusted? Religions ask and respond to such fundamental questions of the meaning and truth © Grand Valley State University   �David Tracy, The Analogical Imagination, Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 2 of 20 of our existence as human beings in solitude, and in society, history and the cosmos. Theologians, by definition, risk an intellectual life on the wager that religious traditions can be studied as authentic responses to just such questions. The nature of these fundamental questions cuts across the spectrum of publics. Lurking beneath the surface of our everyday lives, exploding into explicitness in the limit-situations inevitable in any life, are questions which logically must be and historically are called religious questions. To formulate such questions honestly and well, to respond to them with passion and rigor, is the work of all theology. (p. 4) With such a vision of theology’s work, Tracy sets out to create a space in human endeavor for such an undertaking. Claiming the common human experience of encountering a classic in the spectrum of human culture, Tracy points specifically to the classic in art which is universally recognized. He then claims the same holds true for the religious experience; there have been religious expressions that can rightfully be designated classic. As cited above, The issue of both the meaning and truth of religion is related to the analogous issue of the meaning and truth of art. For Tracy, a Christian theologian, the classic religious expression is the event of Jesus Christ. In Part I Tracy will develop his claim that a religious classic can be portrayed through reasoning that is publicly recognized – there can be no appeal to an external norm or private vision. This section he entitles “Publicness in Systematic Theology.” From there he will go on to apply what he has claimed to the event of Jesus Christ. Section Two he entitles, “Interpreting the Christian Classic.” The Preface announces the major question of Tracy’s The Analogical Imagination: “In a culture of pluralism must each religious tradition finally either dissolve into some lowest common denominator or accept a marginal existence as one interesting but purely private option?” Tracy is not willing to accept either option. A theological strategy must be found that can articulate the genuine claims of religion to truth. This is the task he sets for himself: a responsible affirmation of pluralism through the discovery of public criteria by which truth can be affirmed. Theology must develop public criteria of truth and discourse because it deals with the fundamental questions of existence and because it speaks of God. Recognizing that the theologian addresses three arenas, society, academy and church, Tracy insists that the criteria of publicness applies in all three areas. Theology is the generic name for three disciplines: fundamental, systematic and practical theologies. Publicness is demanded of each. The primary focus of fundamental theology is the academy, of systemic theology, the church and of © Grand Valley State University �David Tracy, The Analogical Imagination, Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 3 of 20 practical theology, society. They differ not only in their primary reference group, but also in terms of their modes of argument, ethical stance, religious stance and in terms of expressing claims to meaning and truth. On the way to a responsible pluralism all conversation partners must agree to certain basic rules for the discussion. Two constants are present: the interpretation of a religious tradition and the interpretation of the religious dimension of the contemporary situation from which and to which the theologian speaks. In regard to the first, it is incumbent upon the theologian to make explicit his or her general method of interpretation, to develop “criteria of appropriateness” whereby specific interpretations of the tradition may be judged by the wider theological community. In regard to the interpretation of the contemporary situation, there must be an analysis of the “religious” questions, the question of the meaning of human existence in the present situation. There are major differences as well. Tracy addresses the question as to what constitutes a public claim to truth in the three sub-disciplines of theology. Fundamental theology’s defining characteristic is “a reasoned insistence on employing the approach and methods of some established academic discipline to explicate and adjudicate the truth claims of the interpreted religious tradition and the truth claims of the contemporary situation.” (p. 62) Various models are available but whichever model is chosen fundamental questions and answers are articulated in such a way that any attentive, intelligent, reasonable and responsible person can understand and judge them in keeping with fully public criteria for argument. Personal faith may not enter the argument for the truth claims in fundamental theology. The systematic theologian’s major task is the reinterpretation of the tradition for the present situation. Where the fundamental theologian will relate the reality of God to our fundamental trust in existence (our common faith), the confessional systematic theologian will relate that reality to their arguments for a distinctively Christian understanding of faith. (p. 65) Christian theology…consists in explicating in public terms and in accordance with the demands of it own primary confessions, the full meaning and truth of the original “illuminating event”…which occasioned and continues to inform its understanding of all reality. (p. 66) Thus the task of the systematic theologian is an hermeneutical task. The “illuminating event” Tracy calls a religious classic. As in a classic work of art, the religious classic contains the possibility of ever new “disclosures.” Classics Tracy defines as texts, events, images, persons, rituals and symbols which are assumed to disclose permanent possibilities of meaning and truth. The hermeneutical theologian seeks to articulate the truth – disclosure of the reality of God embedded in the tradition for the contemporary situation. © Grand Valley State University �David Tracy, The Analogical Imagination, Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 4 of 20 There is today a strong case being made by many theologians for the necessity of any theological theory or argument yielding to the demand of praxis. Praxis…must be related to theory, not as theory’s application or even goal as in all conscious and unconscious mechanical notions of practice or technique. Rather praxis is theory’s own originating and self-correcting foundation, since all theory is dependent, minimally, on the authentic praxis of the theorist’s personally appropriated value of intellectual integrity and self-transcending commitment to the imperatives of critical rationality. (p. 69) Tracy states his response to the theologians of praxis as follows: The very notion of praxis is grounded in a distinction, not a separation; truth as transformation always also involves truth as disclosure; speaking the truth is never separable but is distinguishable from doing the truth; cognitive claims are not simply validated through authentic praxes any more than causes are validated through the presence of martyrs; the crises of cognitive claims does not simply dissipate when the shift of emphasis to the social-ethical crisis of a global humanity comes more clearly into central focus…. (p. 79) In sum: fundamental theology seeks metaphysical and existential adequacy to experience; systematic theology seeks the disclosure of the original “illuminating event” in the present situation; practical theology emphasizes the necessity of truth as transformative. Tracy hopes for the possibility of collaboration between these sub-disciplines and the communal recognition of the real need for all three. Tracy moves the focus now to systematic theology asking from the perspective of fundamental theology what one can argue on obviously public grounds for the public status of all good systematic theology. The question is simply, “Is systematic theology public discourse?” It is Tracy’s contention that systematic theology is hermeneutical. This means that systematic theology’s task is to interpret, mediate and translate the meaning and truth of the tradition. Where this is not the case, where the notion of authority shifts from a truth disclosed to mind and heart to an external norm for the obedient will, theologians can no longer interpret and translate the tradition but “only repeat the shop-worn conclusions of the tradition.” (p. 99) Eventually, the central, classical symbols and doctrines of the tradition become mere “fundamentals” to be externally accepted and endlessly repeated. (p. 99) Tracy points to the contrast of an hermeneutical theology: © Grand Valley State University �David Tracy, The Analogical Imagination, Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 5 of 20 The heart of any hermeneutical position is the recognition that all interpretation is a mediation of past and present, a translation carried on within the effective history of a tradition to retrieve its sometimes strange, sometimes familiar meanings. (p. 99) How is this done? Recognizing that one begins within a tradition which has shaped one, that one is socialized, acculturated and thus without the possibility of finding some position “above” one’s own historicity, …the route to liberation from the negative realities of a tradition is not to declare the existence of an autonomy that is literally unreal but to enter into a disciplined and responsive conversation with the subject matter – the responses and, above all, the fundamental questions – of the tradition. (p. 100) Tracy refers to Hans-Georg Gadamer’s model of conversation as a model for understanding the dialogue with the tradition. Real conversation occurs only when the participants allow the question, the subject matter, to assume primacy. It occurs only when our usual fears about our own self-image die….That fear dies only because we are carried along, and sometimes away, by the subject matter itself into the rare event or happening named “thinking” and “understanding.” For understanding happens; it occurs not as the pure result of personal achievement but in the back-and-forth movement of the conversation itself. (p. 101) …The word “hermeneutical” best describes this realized experience of understanding in conversation. For every event of understanding, in order to produce a new interpretation, mediates between our past experience and the understanding embodied in our linguistic tradition and the present event of understanding occasioned by a fidelity to the logic of the question in the back-and-forth movement of the conversation. (p. 101) Using the model of conversation Tracy shows how one enters into the history of the illuminating event. When interpreting a classic one recognizes its “excess of meaning” demands constant interpretation and is at the same time timeless – “a certain kind of timelessness –namely the timeliness of a classic expression radically rooted in its own historical time and calling to my own historicity. That is, the classical text is not in some timeless moment which needs mere repetition. Rather its kind of timelessness as permanent timeliness is the only one proper to any expression of the finite, temporal, historical beings we are….The classic text’s fate is that only its constant reinterpretation by later finite, historical, temporal beings who will risk asking its questions and listening, critically and tactfully, to its responses can actualize the event of understanding beyond its present fixation in a text. (p. 102) © Grand Valley State University �David Tracy, The Analogical Imagination, Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 6 of 20 To be understood a classic cannot be repeated; it must be interpreted. Thus Tracy claims All contemporary systematic theology can be understood as fundamentally hermeneutical. This position implies that systematic theologians, by definition, will understand themselves as radically finite and historical thinkers who have risked a trust in a particular religious tradition – They seek, therefore, to retrieve, interpret, translate, mediate the resources – …of the classic events of understanding of those fundamental religious questions embedded in the classic events, images, persons, rituals, texts and symbols of the tradition. (p. 104) Tracy moves on to the normative role of the classics. He begins with the assertion “classics exist.” It is true of all cultures. He claims, We all find ourselves compelled both to recognize and on occasion to articulate our reasons for recognition that certain expressions of the human spirit so disclose a compelling truth about our lives that we cannot deny them some kind of normative status. (p. 108) Such expressions we call “classic.” Tracy defines the classic thus: My thesis is that which we mean in naming certain texts, events, images, rituals, symbols and persons “classics” is that here we recognize nothing less than the disclosure of a reality we cannot but name truth….some disclosure of reality in a moment that must be called one of “recognition” which surprises, provokes, challenges, shocks and eventually transforms us; an experience that upsets conventional opinion and expands the sense of the possible; indeed a realized experience of that which is essential, that which endures. (p. 108) The experience of a classic work of art is used as an illustration of Tracy’s point. Citing Gadamer, he writes, The actual experience of the work of art can be called a realized experience of an event of truth ....when I experience any classic work of art, I do not experience myself as an autonomous subject aesthetically appreciating the good qualities of an aesthetic object set over against me. Indeed, when I reflect after the experience upon the experience itself, shorn of prior theories of "aesthetics," I find that my subjectivity is never in control of the experience, nor is the work of art actually experienced as an object with certain qualities over against me. Rather the work of art encounters me with the surprise, impact, even shock of reality itself. In experiencing art, I recognize a truth I somehow know but know I did not really know except through the experience of recognition of the essential compelled by the work of art. (p. 111F) © Grand Valley State University �David Tracy, The Analogical Imagination, Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 7 of 20 I am transformed by the truth which I encounter. I experience self-transcendence not as an achievement; rather it happens, it occurs. I am caught up in the disclosure of the work. Gadamer uses the phenomenon of the "game" to describe this encounter. In playing a game I lose myself in the play moving into the "rules" of the game. The game becomes not an object over against a self-conscious subject but an experienced relational and releasing mode of being in the world distinct from the ordinary, nonplayful one. In every game, I enter the world where I play so fully that finally the game plays me. (p. 114) This is what happens when one encounters a genuine work of art. One finds oneself in the grip of an event, a happening, a disclosure, a claim to truth which cannot be denied. Tracy notes the process of encountering the text. The first movement is the reception of the text. Secondly, if the text is a classic it will carry a force that will claim attention. The third step of interpretation involves the "game" spoken of above. The dialogue will demand that the interpreter enter into the back-andforth movement of that disclosure in the dialectics of a self-transcending freedom released by the text upon a finite, historical, dialogical reader and received by the text from a now dialoguing reader. (p. 120) The fourth step involves the larger conversation of the entire community of inquirers. To illustrate our claim that an encounter with a classic work of art demands our attention and discloses truth which we cannot but recognize as an encounter with reality, Tracy describes the production of a classic. The discussion of that creative artistic process leads him to conclude: In the paradigmatic expressions of the human spirit - in those texts, events, persons, actions, images, rituals, symbols which bear within them a classic as authoritative status, we find in our experienced recognition of their claim to attention the presence of what we cannot but name "truth." ... That truth is at once a disclosure and a concealment of what, at our best and most self-transcending in interpreting the classics, we cannot but name "reality." (p. 130) Tracy therefore argues for his contention that the systematic theologian is the interpreter of religious classics. Systematic theology intends to provide an interpretation, a retrieval (including a retrieval through critique and suspicion) and always, © Grand Valley State University �David Tracy, The Analogical Imagination, Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 8 of 20 therefore, a new application of a particular religious tradition’s selfunderstanding for the current horizon of the community. (p. 131) Applying this understanding of systematic theology’s task to the specific task of the Christian thinker, Tracy declares, In Christian systematics, that self-understanding is itself further grounded in the particular events and persons of Jewish and Christian history: decisively grounded, for the Christian, in God’s own self-manifestation as my God in this classic event and person, Jesus Christ. (p. 131) But now the crux of the matter is reached: how does the systematic theologian address the wider public with discussion characterized by “publicness” thus stopping the retreat of Christian faith into the sphere of privateness and yet remain faithful to the radical particularity of the relationship of my gift’s disclosure to the particular events of God’s action in ancient Israel, in Jesus of Nazareth, in the history of the Christian church? (p. 132) Acknowledging the dilemma, Tracy believes it can be overcome. The means of overcoming the dilemma is the recognition of the public nature of the classic: grounded in some realized experience of a claim to attention, unfolding as cognitive disclosures of both meaning and truth and ethically transformative of personal, social and historical life. (p. 132) Tracy therefore contends, Whenever any systematic theologian produces a classic interpretation of a particular classic religious tradition (as both Barth and Rahner have), then that new expression should be accorded a public status in the culture…. (p. 132F) Every classic…is a text, event, image, person or symbol which unites particularity of origin and expression with a disclosure of meaning and truth available, in principle, to all human beings. (p. 133) And again: Any person’s intensification of particularity via a struggle with the fundamental questions of existence in a particular tradition, if that struggle is somehow united to the logos of appropriate expression, will yield a form of aesthetically sharable public discourse. (p. 134) Chapter four deals with the interpretation of the religious classics. The classic, Tracy claims, has these two marks: permanence and excess of meaning. They © Grand Valley State University �David Tracy, The Analogical Imagination, Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 9 of 20 demand interpretation, never mere repetition nor simplistic rejection. The interpreter must plunge in, get caught up in the subject matter of the classic. Engaging a major classic or being engaged by it is to be engaged by the questions of the truth of existence. This is the task of the systematic theologian – to interpret the religious classics of a culture. While many in contemporary culture relegate religious questions to a primitive state of the race’s development, Tracy raises the question, Yet what if the authority of religion is not the authoritarianism in our impacted memories of “religion” but the authority of those authentic, indeed inevitable fundamental questions about the meaning of the whole codified in the questions and responses of classical religious texts, events, images, symbols, rituals and persons? (p. 155) To be sure, the religions have been purveyors not only of authentic truth but demonic destructive power. There is a great deal of conflict of interpretations on the meaning of religion and in the modern period the claims of Feuerbach, Marx, Nietzsche and Freud that describe religion as “projection” and “illusion” must be faced. Arriving at one definition for the essence of religion is not possible. Yet Tracy will not back off; he claims, The questions which religion addresses are the fundamental existential questions of the meaning and truth of individual, communal and historical existence as related to, indeed as both participating in and distanced from, what is sensed as the whole of reality. (p. 157F) Religion, Tracy argues, is not just another cultural perspective alongside morality, art, science, commerce and politics. In its own self-understanding, a religious perspective claims to speak not of a part but of the whole. (p. 159) In a very technical philosophical argument Tracy maintains An ability to partly state – more exactly, to metaphysically state – the abstract, general, universal and necessary features of the reality of God as the one necessary existent which can account for the reality of a limit-of, ground-to, horizon-to the whole disclosed in earlier phenomenological accounts. (p. 161) Religion has essential characteristics even apart from a single definition of its essence and chief among them, Tracy claims, is "a limit-character." There is both a "limit-to" dimension: a dimension present in the "limit-questions" of scientific inquiry and moral striving, and in those experiences (either negative, like anxiety as © Grand Valley State University �David Tracy, The Analogical Imagination, Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 10 of 20 distinct from fear, or positive, like fundamental trust, wonder and loyalty as distinct from trust in and fidelity to a particular cause), disclosive of the "limit-situation" which is the human situation. (p. 160) and a "limit of" dimension: The philosophical analyses of fundamental theology, therefore, free the inquirer to study the possible meanings of such recognized "situational" limit-experiences as finitude, contingency, mortality, alienation or oppression and thereby to explicate, indeed to state, the character of that reality as a limit-to our existence. In that explicit stating of a limit-to, the inquirer may also be able to disclose or show the existence of a reality here named a "limit-of" (alternatively horizon-to our ground-of). In its metaphysical or transcendental form, the analysis can also partly state the character of that reality of the limit-of. This is the case, in the Western tradition, when the metaphysical reality of God as the one necessary existent grounding all reality is explicated as the referent of just such limit-experiences of a religious dimension to our lives", (p. 160) Tracy uses Karl Rahner's work to illustrate how this philosophical analysis of fundamental theology relates to the Christian conviction of the revelation of God in Jesus Christ. For Rahner, the philosopher of religion can provide persuasive philosophical arguments for the necessary existence of an absolute mystery as ultimate horizon to all thinking and living. If that argument holds, then Rahner is correct to insist that the human being, now understood as always already within that horizon of ultimate mystery, can be redescribed, in his now famous phrase, as a hearer of a possible revelation from this horizon, i.e., a self-manifestation by the power of ultimate mystery itself. In the actual experience of that self-manifestation of God in Jesus Christ, the Christian believer now, according to Rahner, recognizes that the concrete revelation is a pure gift or grace from the incomprehensible God of Love. Then the believer "recognizes" that all reality is graced by that gift: that all reality partakes in a "transcendental" revelation disclosed in the categorical revelation of God's own self-manifestation in Jesus Christ; that revelation, as "transcendental," is always already present in this concretely graced world; that revelation as "categorized" is present in the gratuity of God's self-manifestation in the events of "salvation history," decisively present, for Rahner, in the event of the manifestation of who God is and who we are in Jesus Christ. (p. 162) Thus we are hearers of a possible revelation or self-manifestation of the absolute mystery and for the Christian believer that manifestation has taken concrete shape in Jesus Christ. In these terms the religious classic © Grand Valley State University �David Tracy, The Analogical Imagination, Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 11 of 20 may be viewed as an event of disclosure, expressive of the "limit-of," "horizon-to," "ground-to" side of "religion." ... religious classic expressions will involve a claim to truth as the event of a disclosure – concealment of the whole of reality by the power of the whole – as, in some sense, a radical and finally gracious mystery. (p. 163) An experience of such a classic religious expression will carry an authority which will give to the religious person the conviction that their values, their style of life, their ethos are in fact grounded in the inherent structure of reality itself. (p. 163) Tracy summarizes his contention in this discussion of the interpretation of the religious classic as follows: First, a defining characteristic of the situational "religious dimension of common experience and language" is the "limit-to" character of the experience itself, whatever its particular existential focus. Second, a defining characteristic of any explicit religion – more exactly any classic religious expression – is a “limit-of” character bearing the status of eventgift-manifestation of and from the whole, and experienced as giving the respondent wholeness. (p. 165) His approach in pursuing this line of argument – that the religious classic exists, claims our attention and discloses truth which we cannot but name reality – presumes an appropriate preunderstanding for the interpretation of religion. He argues: If one is guided by a sense for those fundamental questions, if guided as well by that great modern tradition of interpretation of the sui generis character of religion ... The interpreter is likely to find relative adequacy in the kind of interpretations of the appropriate responses to the religious classics described in different, sometimes conflicting ways by these great modern phenomenologists of the sui generis character of religion. (p. 168) ... The kind of claim to attention that a religious classic, as religious, provokes is a claim that discloses to the interpreter some realized experience bearing some sense of recognition into the objectively awesome reality of the otherness of the whole as radical mystery. The genuinely religious person (James' "mystics" and "saints"), it seems, do experience that reality of mystery as the reality of the holy bearing overwhelming and life-transformative force, (p. 168F) The religious person speaks of revelation, the self-manifestation of an undeniable power not one's own or at one's disposal. They cannot but acknowledge the eruption of a power manifesting itself – a power of the whole revealing the whole. © Grand Valley State University �David Tracy, The Analogical Imagination, Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 12 of 20 For the whole experienced as radical mystery is experienced as giving itself in the religious response. The whole, in manifesting itself, is also experienced as freeing the real self of the respondent to its true freedom; a freedom where the self's new ethos is experienced as grounded in reality itself – a reality both disclosed and concealed as the whole by the power of the whole. (p. 175) Again Tracy explains the experience thus: The same sense of radical giftedness both fascinates and frightens as it shocks and transforms the self to believe what one dare not otherwise believe: that reality is finally gracious, that the deepest longings of our minds and hearts for wholeness in ourselves, with others, with history and nature, is the case – the case granted as gift by the whole; the case expressed with relative adequacy determined by the intrinsic inadequacy of every classic religious expression. (p. 177) We approach now the heart of Tracy’s argument as he discusses the religious classic under the sub-divisions of manifestation and proclamation. Here he makes a creative and passionate appeal for a genuinely ecumenically Christian witness which brings together the strengths of the Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant traditions rather than the more narrow focus of any single tradition. Tracy's argument rests on his contention that truth becomes a realized experience through the encounter with a religious classic. A classic expression encountered frees oneself from the ordinary attempts to distance the self from any claims that cannot be controlled as objects over against its own subjectivity. ... The interpreter of religious classics may admit that this classic testimony bears a claim to truth. That claim is, more exactly, a nonviolent appeal to the instinct of the human spirit for some relationship to the whole. (p. 194) The truth experienced in the classic has the character of event. When technical rationality reigns, no recognition of the event-character of truth can occur. Any interpreter of the religious classic must early decide whether to impose some standards of technical rationality upon all classical expressions or risk exposing oneself to another mode of rationality; a mode proper to the thing itself as it discloses itself to consciousness. We cannot, in fact, verify or disprove the claims of classical religious expressions through empiricist methods….truth here becomes a manifestation that lets whatever shows itself to be in its showing and its hiddenness. (p. 195) Neither the Enlightenment model of rationality nor traditionalist models of heteronomy are capable of dealing thus with truth as event, occurrence. They © Grand Valley State University �David Tracy, The Analogical Imagination, Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 13 of 20 both interpret all claims to truth through the restrictive lenses of techniques developed by autonomous and heteronomous interpreters. Just as one approaches a classic in any field, so in religion one must be open to being caught up in the "conversation," the "game," open to being transformed by the truth of the whole which finds expression or which discloses itself through the concrete religious expression. Fundamental theology warrants the claims to truth of the religious dimension to existence on ordinary public grounds; systematic theology as interpretation warrants the claims to truth of a concrete religion on those kinds of authentically public grounds appropriate to the kind of disclosive publicness expressed in all classics. This is the case, moreover, for radically experiential reasons: the realized experience of the truth-character of the religious classic is an experience of its purely given character, its status as an event, a happening manifested to my experience, neither determined by nor produced by my subjectivity. (p. 198) Tracy describes the structural similarity between the encounter with religious classics and other classics. Any classic will produce its meaning through the related strategies of intensification of particularity and intensification of distanciation in expression. The first journey of intensification into one's own particularity will ordinarily free the person (or community) from the limitations of selfconsciousness into a sense of a real participation in, a belonging to, a wider and deeper reality than the self or the community. That experience of intensification, like all experience must involve some understanding and some expression. When the struggle for expression – the second, selfdistancing journey of intensification – finds its appropriate genre, style and form, then the self is positively distanced from the original experience in order to express the meaning of that experience. Then a person can communicate the disclosive meaning to others who may not now share it, but can share its meaning through experiencing the now-rendered expression. (p. 199F) There is a difference between religious classics and other classics, however. It has to do with intensity. The religious classic is an expression of the whole itself by the power of the whole. ... The authentically religious impetus is one where the intensification process is itself abandoned into a letting go of one's own efforts at intensity. One lets go because one has experienced some disclosure of the whole which cannot be denied as from the whole. (p. 201) © Grand Valley State University �David Tracy, The Analogical Imagination, Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 14 of 20 Finally one experiences a sense of resting in the radical and gracious mystery at the heart of human existence. Such an experience demands expression: a demand to express that experience and its meaning and truth in a form – a text, an image, a gesture, above all, a style of life. The demand to express, to render, to communicate sets in motion the distanciation process whereby the self distances itself from its own self-consciousness and finds the proper genre for some expression of that meaning and truth. (p. 201) Summarizing the process, Tracy claims, Both the expression and the experience of a religious "limit-of" disclosure and concealment of and by the whole remains, therefore, intrinsically dialectical throughout the entire process. The demands of the journey of intensification into the fundamental questions of the meaning of existence imply their opposite: a letting-go, a being-caught-up-in, a radical belonging-to some disclosure of the whole by the whole. And the very radicality of that belonging-to the whole posits itself by implying its opposite: I as a self recognize that I am absolutely dependent upon the whole, recognize myself as in actuality profoundly ambiguous in all my experience, my understanding, my ability and willingness to live by and in the radical mystery which envelops and empowers me. As the dialectic intensifies, this recognition of the disclosure of radical mystery posits itself as disclosure by implying its opposite: The mystery is also concealed from me by and in its disclosure as mystery. The revelation is also a revelation of hiddenness; the flooding, white light of its comprehensibility frees me to recognize the dark impenetrable incomprehensibility of both the whole and myself in the whole. (p. 202) Then comes the command to communicate by incarnating that reality in a word, a symbol, an image, a ritual, a gesture, a life. Tracy moves now to discuss the classical forms of religious expression: manifestation and proclamation. The dialectical process just described, an existential intensification of particularity, expressing itself through distanciation in a sharable form – will operate dialectically at every moment in the process. (p. 203) But now Tracy makes another proposal regarding religious expression. When the dialectic of intensification of particularity releasing itself to a radical sense of participation predominates, the religious expression will be named "manifestation;" when the dialectic of intensification of particularity releasing itself to a sense of radical nonparticipation dominates, the religious expression will be named "proclamation." (p. 203) © Grand Valley State University �David Tracy, The Analogical Imagination, Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 15 of 20 The words "sacrament" and "word" are usually used to make this distinction, the former being the predominate expression of the Catholic and Orthodox traditions, while the latter has been characteristic of Protestantism. The difference is also pointed out by the terms "mystical-priestly-metaphysicalaesthetic" and "prophetic-ethical-historical." Both types are found in the Hebrew Scriptures and in the Christian tradition. Judaism, Christianity, and Islam contain both expressions although from the East they may appear more in the proclamatory mode. Likewise, although the Eastern religions are thought of as mainly in the mode of manifestation, they too must be understood in the dialectic of manifestation or proclamation. Tracy moves away from the common theological designation of the difference – word and sacrament – and uses instead the terminology of Paul Ricoeur – manifestation and proclamation – in order to see more clearly how the religious live in this dialectic and cannot be placed on one side or the other, although, of course, they lean to one pole or the other. He contends that the manifestation-proclamation dialectic is fruitful for understanding the complexity and the conflicts in Christian self-understanding, which is the focus of Tracy's work. This distinction provides the main rubric for the thought experiment Tracy is setting forth. Tracy argues that the very positing of manifestation or proclamation implies the other; each needs the other. He begins his examination of these poles with a discussion of manifestation. He uses the work of Mircea Eliade as the clearest example of religious expression as manifestation. ... Eliade' s classic achievement ... paradoxically serves a prophetic religious role to challenge the dominant prophetic, ethical, historical trajectory of Western religion in favor of its grounds in the power of manifestation.... The "archaic" ontology articulated by Eliade becomes the focal meaning for understanding religion as an eruption of power of some manifestation of the whole now experienced as the sacred cosmos. … By entering the ritual, by retelling the myth, even by creatively reinterpreting the symbol, we escape from the "nightmare" of history and even the "terror" of ordinary time. We finally enter true time, the time of the repetition of the actions of the whole at origin of the cosmos. In illo tempore, the power from the whole was first disclosed as sacred. ... only by entering into the originally nonlinguistic manifestations of power of the sacred in the ritual, the symbol, the festival, the myth, can we participate in, belong to, a realm disclosed in the other side of the ordinary: a realm which has manifested itself as sacred, which exposes the ordinary as profane, a realm which at the same time chooses any ordinary reality – this rock, this tree, this city, this mountain, this rite – as the medium for the saturated power of the sacred – the "center of the world." ... (p. 205F) © Grand Valley State University �David Tracy, The Analogical Imagination, Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 16 of 20 Thus the realm of the sacred can be experienced by being willing to enter the purely given, that sheer event of manifestation. Tracy maintains that Eliade has effectively challenged the Western Augustinian assumptions through his retrieval of the genius of Eastern Christianity: a theology oriented to and from, not history and ethos, but the cosmos and aesthetics; a style of religious practice oriented not so much by the word of scripture as by the manifestations of the sacred in image, icon, ritual, logos and cosmological theologies; a way of being Christian that both demands a radical separation from the ordinary via the rituals and myths of the repetition of the origins of the cosmos and allows real participation in the manifestations of the sacred available to our "divinized" humanity. (p. 208) But there is another pole; the pole of proclamation: Those religious expressions where the power of a word of proclamation from God in an address to an ambiguous self occurs as the paradigmatic disclosure of religious reality. (p. 208) The pole of manifestation brings to expression the sense of participation in the whole. Yet the very sense of identity in the moment of manifestation implies the non-identity of the individual, finite self. Therefore the estranged self may be addressed by a word of proclamation: A word of defamiliarizing proclamation now experienced by the self as the transcendent, unnamable Other which has now disclosed itself in word as like a who: the self of God. ... This God speaks a word of proclamation whereby and wherein the whole discloses itself in a new manifestation by the presence of a personal, gracious, acting, judging, proclaiming God. This God acts in the word-events of ordinary history and time. (p. 209) This word shatters our sense of participation, disconfirming any complacency in participation. To shatter any illusions that this culture, this priesthood, this land, this ritual is enough, to defamiliarize us with ourselves and with nature, to decode our encoded myths, to inflict its passionate negations upon all our pretensions, to suspect even our nostalgic longings for the sacred cosmos, to expose all idols of the self as projections of our selves and our mad ambitions, to expose all culture as contingent, even arbitrary. …To make us recognize that Judaism and Christianity disclose a radical worldaffirmation only because they have first undergone a radical, decentering experience of world-negation in the kerygmatic, proclamatory word of address of prophetic religion. (p. 209) … © Grand Valley State University �David Tracy, The Analogical Imagination, Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 17 of 20 The self finds that the response to that proclamation by the self and the people to whom the self belongs is that radical paradigmatic response of trust and obedience called faith. (p. 209) The proclaimed word will be expressed in the realm of the secular which was formerly thought of as profane but now is recognized as the arena in which the power of the word must be heard. ... The very power of the proclaimed word – a word addressed by God to both a community and a self, a word of address shattering their security and their idols – demands that the major expression of one's religious experience now be found in fidelity through word and deed in this time and this history to the God who gives that word as enabling command. (p. 210) The paradigm of proclamation does not eliminate the religious expressions of manifestation. Without them there is no place for the word to be heard and do its work. Yet the focus has definitely shifted. The language of radical participation in the religions of manifestation will now seem extravagant, sometimes even idolatrous. The rejection of the ordinary as the separated profane will now, in the proclamation of the word about the extraordinariness of the ordinary as the central expression of God's word and action, will now itself be rejected in favor of a classical, paradigmatic religious ethic of the secular. (p. 211) The affirmation of the secular in contemporary Jewish and Christian theology, therefore, is not properly understood as some collapse of Christianity and Judaism in the face of contemporary secularism. Rather a secular Christianity and a secular Judaism are, in fact, faithful to the paradigmatic eruption of a proclaimed and addressing word-event which founds these traditions and drives them on as their religious focal meaning. Some desacralization of the claims of participation via manifestation must occur whenever this kind of world-shattering and world-affirming paradigmatic religious experience of proclamation happens. For the very proclamation which affirms time and history and demands expression in and for ordinary time and history frees Jews and Christians in and for the world. When the paradigmatic religious power of that word has become a nostalgic echo, a presupposition that is no longer an impulse, then the great danger of a merely secularist Judaism, a merely secularist Christianity, a finally secularist culture emerges. (p. 211F) But where the proclaimed word is remembered, the word of world-negation and world-affirmation, the Jew and the Christian are freed for the world. This was the case in the Reformation according to Tracy. He calls it a classic religious event. The Reformation was a response to the graced freedom of the Christian before God's Word in Jesus Christ. © Grand Valley State University �David Tracy, The Analogical Imagination, Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 18 of 20 Where the paradigmatic power of that word saturates the religious consciousness with its power, then the negation of all over-claims to participation, the religious negation of the focus of "magic," "superstition," "legalism," and "ritualism" will burst upon any complacent resting in any religion of manifestation, any non-dialectical solace in a too easy humanism or any hardened priestcraft. (p. 212) The word exposes the world's real ambiguity, its possibilities for both good and evil and it points to a new time, a time of genuine newness, not just the repetition of the origins of the cosmos. If liberal Christianity loses its sense of the word of proclamation it loses its religious vitality. It loses its religious dialectic of the world and the secular and becomes another decent, ethical vision living in, by and for a world which sets its agenda and writes the words for its decent, ethical, but ultimately irreligious tunes. The liberal churches are always in danger of losing their paradigmatic religious dialectic and becoming only psychological counseling centers or resources for societal causes. And yet the fidelity of the liberal churches to the world empowered by their listening to the Christian word of proclamation compels them, as it must, to aid all authentic causes of personal wholeness and societal justice. (p. 212) Tracy points to Karl Barth and Dietrich Bonhoeffer as leading examples of the ministry of the paradigmatic word which shatters the idols of culture. Barth so feared any claim to participation in the transcendent reality that he wanted to admit of no point of contact; such a view sees a word-centered Christianity devoid of all manifestation apart from the erupting power of the Word. Commenting on the two poles, manifestation and proclamation in their recent exponants referred to here, Eliade, Barth and Bonhoeffer, Tracy declares, With the same kind of radicality as Eliade, Barth and Bonhoeffer will also insist, "Only the paradigmatic is the real." Yet their paradigm of the proclaimed word will drive them into a direct confrontation with the equally radical "only" of Eliade through its dialectic in and for the world, in and for time and history. For Eliade, manifestation discloses not an entry into the secular but an escape from the terror, the nightmare, the banality, the latent nihilism of ordinary time and history. Not the profane, not the secular will save us; only an entry into the religion of manifestation, the worlds of sacred space and the repetitions of sacred time can do that. Eliade's work serves in the contemporary period as a classic expression of the power of religion as manifestation releasing its dialectic of the sacred and the profane and its passionately religious sense of radical participation in the cosmos through the saturating repetitions of myth, ritual and symbol. His is recognizably iconic consciousness. In an analogous manner Barth and Bonhoeffer, with their distinct and sometimes conflicting positions, represent two contemporary classic expressions of Christian © Grand Valley State University �David Tracy, The Analogical Imagination, Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 19 of 20 faith as a faith living by the power of the proclaimed word releasing its dialectic of the word and the secular and its suspicion of "religious participation" and repetition. (p. 213F) It is Tracy's contention that we must not be forced to choose one pole or the other. Christianity does not live by the "only" of Eliade or Barth. It is his purpose to push beyond these oppositions to find a place where both can be embraced. Both manifestation and proclamation are necessary to Christian religion. The dialectic of the Christian religion is one in which the word does negate any claim to a mode of participation which logically approaches identity or existentially relaxes into complacency – a dialectic which, in fidelity to the word, must radically negate all idolatries, yet a dialectic which implies, includes and demands genuine manifestation. ... Christianity embraces nature in and through its doctrines of creation – transformed, to be sure, in the light of the doctrines of redemption and future eschatology. Indeed Christianity celebrates nature in and through its doctrine of incarnation as theophanous manifestation – understood, to be sure, only in the light of a shattering, defamiliarizing cross and a transformative resurrection. (p. 214) Tracy contends that a Christianity of word without real manifestation stands in peril of becoming either fanatical or arid and cerebral and abstract. Barth understood this dealing at length with the doctrine of creation. Manifestation, Tracy argues, is always the enveloping presupposition of the erupting word of proclamation. Manifestation envelops every word from beginning to end, even as it allows itself to be transformed by the shattering paradigmatic power of the proclaimed word. But manifestation returns, thus transformed, to reunite even the secular, the historical, the temporal, the self with the whole disclosed in nature and the cosmos. A Christianity without a sense of radical participation in the whole – that sense which Schleiermacher named the "feeling of absolute dependence," which others name a fundamental trust in the very worthwhileness of existence – is a Christianity that has lost its roots in the human experience of God's manifesting and revealing presence in all creation, in body, in nature, in spirit, not only in history. (p. 215) The powerful, eruptive word of proclamation that defamiliarizes us from the world is yet itself rooted in the enveloping cosmos. To speak Christian eschatological language is to speak a language where the religious power of the whole has entered time and history in the decisive proclamation of this particular word and event, where that power has freed the "profane" to become the "secular" and has liberated the present and the future from the exclusive hold of the sacred time of past © Grand Valley State University �David Tracy, The Analogical Imagination, Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 20 of 20 origin by empowering history and ethical action with religious power. (p. 216) Tracy points to the sacramental view of Catholic Christianity: Nature and the secular become sacrament in their transformationsublation by the word, the "prime sacrament" and decisive manifestation or representation named Jesus Christ. There can be no negation of the cosmos or nature. Indeed a sacrament is nothing other than a decisive representation of both the events of proclaimed history and the manifestations of the sacred cosmos. (p. 216) If the kerygmatic power of the word in the sacrament is lost, the sacrament becomes magic. But if the paradigmatic power of real manifestation is lost, the word alone will not meet the deepest needs and satisfy the deepest longings of the human heart. Christianity then becomes a righteous rigorism of duty and obligation. How can we hold on to both poles and not lose the necessary experience of either manifestation or proclamation? Tracy believes it can be accomplished but only a radically ecumenical Christianity can accomplish it. By themselves, Protestant, Orthodox and Catholic Christianity seem trapped in historically hardened emphases: unable alone to restore the power of both proclamation and manifestation in a manner that does not seem some uneasy compromise. ... This demand for both manifestation and proclamation is incumbent upon all Christians who recognize the reality of Jesus Christ as the Christian classic, i.e., as the decisive representation in both word and manifestation of our God and our humanity. Thus will Christocentric Christians recognize that the paradigmatic Christ event discloses the religious power of both manifestation and proclamation ... both Christian manifestation and proclamation are ultimately rooted in that God whose radical otherness in freedom posits itself to us as the radical immanence of an all-pervasive, defamiliarizing, shattering, enveloping love in cosmos, in history, in the self. (p. 218) Part II: Interpreting the Christian Classic Tracy applies the methodological argument of Part I to a distinctively Christian systematic theology in Part II. He has argued that there is a distinctly religious classic among the other classics generally recognized and he contends that that classic status means that the religious classic too has public status. Such religious classics are “expressions from a particular tradition that have found the right mode of expression to become public for all intelligent, reasonable and responsible persons.” (p. 233). He asks then what are the classic texts, events, symbols, images and persons in a tradition. While in the Christian tradition there © Grand Valley State University �David Tracy, The Analogical Imagination, Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 21 of 20 are several candidates for classic status, there is one which is the norm of all others and which provides the focus for understanding God, self, others, society, history, nature and the whole from a Christian perspective: the event and person of Jesus Christ. Tracy claims, One need not be a believer in Christianity to accord it (and thereby its central, paradigmatic, classic event) authentically religious status: a manifestation from the whole by the power of the whole. (p. 234) Christology is the attempt to respond through some interpretation to the event of Jesus Christ in one’s own situation. …The Christian interpretation of this classic event recognizes in some present experience of the event – more precisely, in the claim disclosed in that event (paradigmatically in experiencing that event in manifestation and proclamation) as an event from God and by God’s power. To speak religiously and theologically of the Christ event is ultimately to speak of an event from God. )p. 234) The Jesus remembered by the tradition is experienced in the present mediated through the word, sacrament and action. Jesus remembered as the Christ is the experience of the presence of God’s own self. The expression “The event of Jesus Christ” means for the Christian tradition…that we recognize Jesus in the Christ event as the person in whom God’s own self is decisively re-presented as the gift and command of love. The always already reality of a graced world is made present again decisively, paradigmatically, classically as event in Jesus Christ. The event, as re-presentative of reality always already present to us as human beings, is present again as the decisive that it happens. The event as command is also present as the not-yet-actualized reality internal for each person and for all history responding to that one decisive event of God. (p. 234) Tracy will now examine this position to see if it is a relatively adequate interpretation of the event and, secondly, to understand how this interpretation differs from alternative interpretations. The key for the interpretation of the event of Jesus Christ must be the claim exerted in the present by that event as the claim that it happens now. © Grand Valley State University � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. References David Tracy. The Analogical Imagination: Christian Theology and the Culture of Pluralism, 1998 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RA-4-19980101 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1998-01-01 Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Title A name given to the resource The Analogical Imagination: Christian Theology and the Culture of Pluralism Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource eng Description An account of the resource Book Review created, delivered, or published by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on January 1, 1998 entitled "The Analogical Imagination: Christian Theology and the Culture of Pluralism ", on the book The Analogical Imagination: Christian Theology and the Culture of Pluralism , written by David Tracy. Tags: Theology, Pluralism, Truth, Meaning, Sacred, Religious Tradition, Nature of God, Nature of Religion, Ecumenical, Karl Barth, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, Mircea Eliade, David Tracy. Scripture references: David Tracy. The Analogical Imagination: Christian Theology and the Culture of Pluralism, 1998. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf David Tracy Dietrich Bonhoeffer Ecumenical Karl Barth Meaning Mircea Eliade Nature of God Nature of Religion Pluralism Religious Tradition Sacred Theology Truth https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2e77299cfd9d97c25c0133fb43b0b169.pdf fb2dd89eada85e918d593461a9395bdd PDF Text Text   Jesus and the Other Names: Christian Mission and Global Responsibility By Paul F. Knitter (Orbis Books, 1996) Review By Richard A. Rhem Minister of Preaching and Theological Inquiry Christ Community Church Spring Lake, Michigan Publication of Review Unknown In his foreword to Jesus and the Other Names, Harvey Cox speaks of “two urgent movements” in Christian theology which “shook him to his roots”, requiring him to completely rethink his theology. The first, impacting him in the 60’s, was liberation theology. The second, a decade later, was the persistent question of a Christian response to other faiths. For too long he felt that those two movements were like two separate conversations. Those interested in the one concern, had little interest in the other. Paul Knitter, he suggests, has found a way to blend the two conversations – conversations concerning the religious other and the suffering other. Jesus and the Other Names focuses Christian theology on the issue of “globally responsible, correlational dialogue among religions”. His discussion bears the hall marks of the classic liberal persuasion, as do the discussions of John Hick in The Metaphor of God Incarnate and S. Wesley Ariarajah in The Bible and People of Other Faiths. And like them, he draws heavily upon his own human experience. This I believe has always been the strength of the liberal position. Paul Knitter knows the discussion of Christian mission in a pluralistic society from both ends of a spectrum. In the late 50’s after four years of Catholic seminary high school, he officially joined the ranks of the Divine Word Missionaries (“SVD” or Societas Vergi Divini). Those were the years of missionary “adaptation” and “accommodation” in Catholic circles. Missionaries on furlough were often invited to speak to the novitiates. Knitter was struck by the time spent in speaking appreciatively of the other faiths and other ways encountered on the mission field. Such appreciation and accommodation disturbed the ardent young Knitter. Yet by the time of his college graduation in 1962 it was becoming clearer, “that the old exclusivist model of Christianity as light and other religions as darkness didn’t fit the facts” (p. 5). What to do with that dawning realization became clearer to Knitter at the Pontifical Gregorian University. He arrived just two weeks before the opening of © Grand Valley State University   �Paul F. Knitter, Jesus and the Other Names, Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 2   the Second Vatican Council. There Knitter took a course from Catholic theologian Karl Rahner, who was a visiting professor at the time. He was deeply impressed by Rahner’s concept that even those individuals who did not know or profess Christ, even those followers of another religious persuasion, were nonetheless saved by Christ’s sacrificial death. Thus they were, without at times even being aware of it, “anonymous Christians”. Knitter chose to write his doctorate under Rahner on the theme of Catholic attitudes towards other religions. A year and a half later, to his “devastating surprise” he discovered that someone else had not only chosen the same dissertation topic, but had published it that year in Rome. It was this which prompted Knitter to apply to Marburg University (and was the first Roman Catholic ever admitted to the Protestant Marburg), in order to pursue the topic of a Protestant theology or religions. Though he must admit to a biased Rahnerian Catholic perspective, Knitter does not deny the validity of his conclusion: In their efforts to recognize the value of other religions, Protestant theologians, I claimed, were stymied by the Reformational insistence on “faith alone” through “Christ alone” (see Knitter 1975). Protestants such as Paul Althaus, Emil Brunner, and even Wolhart Pannenberg, could recognize “revelation” in other faiths, but never “salvation.” This was, I concluded, to go only halfway in their efforts to reach out to other religious believers (p. 7). This move towards an “inclusive” understanding would ultimately be but a bridge to “the other side” - where lay a more pluralistic understanding of world religions. To move across this bridge he found he must sublate a christocentric approach with one that was theocentric. Thus in his book No Other Name (1985) he would claim “the possibility (and nothing more) that other religions may have their own valid views of and responses to” (p. 9) the Divine Mystery we call Theos or God. Now in Jesus and the Other Names he attempts to correct some of his earlier conclusions (seeing a need to emphasize the soteriological issues rather than theocentric), as he continues to move in the direction of pluralism. In the midst of his wrestling with “the religious other”, Knitter, like Cox, was impacted by the issues of “the suffering other”. Becoming involved with the Sanctuary Movement, he entered into discussion with those for whom suffering takes precedence over doctrinal disputes. He found himself increasingly aware, along with friend and colleague Hans Küng, that as religious persons we bear responsibility for a global ethic. Inter-religious dialogue becomes not simply a question of how to discern God, but even more urgently the question of how to bring about God’s reign. ...the avalanche of dangers forming on the slopes of economic injustice, environmental devastation, and military build-up will not be stayed unless the nations of the world come together to formulate and endorse some kind of shared ethical convictions and guidelines. But such a task will not © Grand Valley State University �Paul F. Knitter, Jesus and the Other Names, Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 3   be accomplished unless the religions of the world, in dialogue, make their contribution. In other words, inter religious conversations must make their most pressing agenda the ethical issues behind the mounting suffering of humans and Earth (p. 12). Having described the autobiographical journey which led him to a pluralistic (he prefers the word correlational to pluralistic) perspective, Knitter turns to the theological underpinnings which support such a view. He suggests that all of our theological understandings must be defined and shaped both by human experience and Christian tradition. Human experience has some common aspects Knitter believes, at least in Western cultures. Whether interacting with co-workers, gathered socially around a dinner table, attending our children’s school programs, or sharing a marriage bed, we are becoming more intimately and acutely aware that there are others for whom another faith persuasion has enriched and transformed their lives. To suggest that ours is the only possibility for grasping religious truth is no longer possible. Pluralism, whether we advocate it or not, is a cognitive reality for most of the Western world. Thus awareness of “others” is one aspect of our human experience. A second is a historical consciousness that recognizes the limitations of knowledge. Says Knitter, “There is no such thing, we know today, as factual knowledge; it is always interpreted knowledge” (p. 29). He quotes Langdon Gilkey: ...in order to preserve their integrity, they must accept theologically what they have long accepted culturally. Given the context-conditioned, “theory-laden”, socially constructed interpretative limitations of every grasp and statement of truth, and given also the ever-changing, always confining flow of history, Christians (and all religious persons) have to admit honestly that, within our human condition, there can be no final word, no one way of knowing truth that is valid for all times and all peoples (pp. 29-30). George Lindbeck (The Nature of Doctrine, 1984) and David Tracy (The Analogical Imagination, 1981 and Plurality and Ambiguity, 1987) are also cited: (They) remind their fellow Christians that to think that they have a fixed source of truth, an unchanging criterion they can apply in all cultural situations in order to decide what is true or good, a foundation that transcends the process and pluralism of history, is to fly in the face of reality, to lust after the unreal. There is no fixed place of truth outside the fray of historical process and continuous dialogue...which means that Christianity is one of the many, limited religions of the world (p. 30). © Grand Valley State University �Paul F. Knitter, Jesus and the Other Names, Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 4   A third component which supports a pluralistic or correlational theology is the moral imperative. Knitter insists that we cannot know our own truth except in dialogue with others. To know only one religion is to risk that it will tend toward a “barbarous or self-indulgent abuse of our own truth” (p. 32). Humorously, Knitter suggests that, just as we need someone to tell us when we have bad breath (!), we need the dialogue partner, the other perspective, to open our eyes - to enable us to see not only how others see our “truth” and also how it affects them, which is perhaps even more important. And finally, human experience recognizes our responsibility for the welfare of the world. Knitter believes that we have a moral obligation, bequeathed to us by God, to participate in the coming of the reign of God. We are God’s physical hands and heart in this world and thus are obligated to aide in the Divine work of Shalom. Aspects of the Christian tradition which support a correlational dialogue are again four in Knitters listing. First, says Knitter, the traditional understanding of the nature of God requires such a pluralistic posture. God is beyond our comprehension. Hence, to say that we have a final or exclusive understanding of the Mystery that is Theos is idolatrous. Moreover, Knitter contends that our understanding of God as Trinitarian implies plurality. Christian ethical incentives provide a basis as well, he claims. Here he relies almost exclusively on the commandment which calls us to love our neighbor as God loves us. To exclude our neighbor from salvation seems to Knitter the epitome of inhospitableness and lack of love. Whenever we hold up a truth or a revelation and insist that according to the will of God it is the only or the absolutely final norm in which all others have to be included, then we cannot treat them as our brothers and sisters in God. Such a norm does enable us to confront them, as love sometimes requires, but it does not allow us to be confronted by them, as love also requires. Whenever we are not disposed to learn as much from our neighbors as they can from us, we cannot love them. We may help them, we may build hospitals and schools for them, we may lift them from their poverty - but we are not loving them (p. 39). Pastoral concerns must be honored in conjunction with supports of the Christian tradition. We do a disservice to those who struggle with these questions if we simply cite doctrine and creed as final answers. We must wrestle along with them in order to give satisfaction to their “cry from the heart”. And then there are the scriptural incentives for correlational dialogue. Along with Krister Stendhal and John Hick, Knitter suggests that we must understand much of the biblical language as metaphor. The grand and divine appellations are really “love talk” (Stendahl). And while he wants to honor and respect texts such as Acts 4:12 – “There is no other name given to human kind by which we can be saved than the name of Jesus Christ”, he begs we remember the context (these © Grand Valley State University �Paul F. Knitter, Jesus and the Other Names, Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 5   words for example are spoken in connection with a specific healing), as well as the polemic nature of other passages such as “I am the way the truth and the life...”. We must always distinguish between the universal and the particular, says Knitter, citing Schubert Ogden’s understanding that we must locate “the particularity of Jesus within the universality of God’s self-revelation, rather than locating God’s universality within the particularity of the historical Jesus”(p. 42). It is that understanding of universality that drives us towards correlational dialogue. Why the term “correlational”? Here Knitter honestly admits that inter-faith dialogue is not easy. He takes issue with those who suggest that we come together easily around issues of “common essence” or “common experience”. Such suggestions are “gossamer theories spun out by academicians who most likely have never felt the hard, obstructing reality of otherness” (p. 13). And yet, his actual inter-faith dialogue experience has convinced him that, despite what are often chasms of perspective, there remains a relatedness. This, he trusts, is a sign from God to persistently pursue areas of “correlation”, and those ways in which we can go forward together in the global work of peace and justice. In the face of his critics’ real and valid concerns ( 1 - that the ambiguity of pluralism jeopardizes a firm foundation of meaning and purpose, 2 - the difficulties of prophetically resisting evil in Christ’s name, 3 - the corrosion and possible destruction of missionary outreach), Knitter maintains that he is still able to conceive of Jesus as unique for Christians and for the world. Stressing ortho-praxis (doing as he did) rather than orthodoxy, Knitter claims that Jesus is truly & fully all that the Newer Testament witnesses profess that he was. Yet this does not require that he was the only one, who solely embodied the selfrevelation of God. Whatever it is that brings a person to be a Christian and follower of Jesus, by its very nature it must enable the person to say that Jesus is truly and effectively the vehicle of the Divine Presence in his or her life. For this person Jesus is truly the Son of God, the savior, mediator, word of God, messiah, the living one. Without the feeling - without an experiential awareness - that inspires the “truly,” one cannot be, one would not want to be, a Christian. But I don’t think that is true of “solely.” When one knows that Jesus is truly savior, one does not know that he is the only savior. One’s experience is limited and has not been able to take in the experiences and messages of all other so-called saviors or religious figures. But if Christians do not or cannot know that Jesus is the only savior neither do they have to know this in order to be committed to this Jesus. The experience of Jesus that has enabled them to say “truly” enables them © Grand Valley State University �Paul F. Knitter, Jesus and the Other Names, Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 6   to keep following him. That there may be others is not an impediment to faithful following. Discipleship requires “truly”; it does not seem to require “solely” (p. 73). With similar logic he concludes that Jesus need be neither fully definitive nor unsurpassable. Rather he proposes that Jesus is universal (not limited to one people), decisive (in that he challenges us) and indispensable (which flows naturally from acceptance that he is universal and decisive). Christians bring to the table the uniqueness of Jesus’ interest in inclusivity and relationship. In representing that Christ-like uniqueness they will share with others the Christian value of contemplatives in action, says Knitter. Prompted by love of neighbor (which is, according to the first commandment, the manifestation of their love for God), Christians believe in the value of “historical involvement”. Believing that the God whom Jesus served has a preference for the poor and oppressed, Christians are concerned for those who suffer due to injustice, engaging in work to alleviate that injustice as they are able. And to the dialogue Christians bring a deep and abiding hope, a hope that enables them to believe that the world can be saved. Says Knitter, a “distinguishing mark of the disciples of Jesus and co-workers in God’s reign is that they don’t give up” (p. 97). To enter into dialogue with other faiths does not require that we abandon our understanding of Jesus’ uniqueness, or abandon a conviction that his way is an ethically important way. Insofar as Christians proclaim the “pure, unbounded love of God” at work in the world and therefore do not insist that Jesus is God’s full, final, or unsurpassable Word, they expect that for the most part their relationships with sincere believers of other paths will indeed be complementary. But insofar as Christians also experience God’s presence in Jesus to include universal, decisive, and indispensable claims, they will also be ready to take strong stands, sometimes in opposition, to the claims of others. (p. 82). But what of missions? This is perhaps the most critical issue for those who fear the goals of correlational or pluralistic dialogue. Throughout the centuries the Christian church has been motivated and animated by a sense of having been “sent” with good news of salvation. It believed it had a necessary role to play in God’s unfolding drama. But if the content of that good news is not for all people in all times, then is the missionary focus of the church still necessary or vital? Knitter claims that it is. And he contends that a pluralistic or correlational posture is still able to beckon disciples who will be sent out to speak good news that they believe is for everyone. It will however require a revision of the missionary mandate. © Grand Valley State University �Paul F. Knitter, Jesus and the Other Names, Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 7   Knitter contends that pluralistic missionary disciples will still continue to affirm Jesus’ divinity. But by this he means (along with Karl Rahner, Paul Tillich, Edward Schillebeeckx, Hans Küng and Monika Hellwig) that To feel and proclaim that Jesus is divine is to encounter him as God’s sacrament, as the embodiment, the historical reality, the symbol, the story that makes God real and effective for me (p. 105). The message of salvation that they bring will encourage others to join in bringing about God’s reign (as opposed to desiring that they join the Christian church). The wellbeing of all creatures must be the mission’s foremost goal. More than Christological missiology, they will be concerned with pneumatological missiology which, Knitter believes, allows one to grasp the universality of God’s saving purpose, without dissolving the distinctive uniqueness of Jesus for Christians. Pneumatology allows for the moving of God’s spirit into realms and through mediums that doctrinal Christology disallows. Though it is a revisioned understanding of missions, Knitter believes that his missionary passion is as ardent today as it was in his earliest years of missionary work. The urgency of its goals can indeed beckon future generations to bear witness to the way of salvation and the good news that God is still engaged with us in saving work, albeit through a multiplicity of religious mediums. Missions as dialogue then, is Knitter’s image of missiology into the third millennium. Perhaps Knitter’s most intriguing and practical suggestion is his call for a dialogical model of theological education. Seminary students need opportunities to learn about traditions other than their own. In as much as dialogue with those of other faiths will become more and more the norm, there should be required courses in Islam, Asian religions and indigenous spiritualities. These courses should be taught not in an abstract informational way, but by professors and guest speakers who can present material experientially. Students must be called to enter “the other’s world of experience” (p. 162). There should be personal encounters fostered by “experimenting with the truth of - or at least observing the spiritual practices of other religions” (p. 162). Another way of engaging the “other’s” voice might be to engage certain issues from a variety of faith perspectives - “Courses on ‘Religions and Peace’ or ‘Buddhism, Christianity and Ecology’, or ‘Feminist Voices in Muslim- Christian Dialogue’ (p. 163). Such perspectives should be mainlined into all courses of Christian history, doctrinal, ethical and social issues. By this, Knitter means...that in teaching a standard course on evil or redemption or church or the question of God, teachers will inject into the discussions what other religious perspectives hold, how they sometimes radically differ, and how they provoke Christian tradition to further reflection. Naturally, given the expertise and general background of most theological faculties, such dreams of mainlining an interreligious conversation into the general curriculum cannot be realized overnight. But they will never be realized at all unless the ideal is affirmed (p. 163). © Grand Valley State University �Paul F. Knitter, Jesus and the Other Names, Review by Richard A. Rhem Page 8   To this end, he would propose that all seminaries should include one or more faculty members trained in a non-Christian tradition. And students should be encouraged or required to sub-specialize in the “history, beliefs, and spirituality of another non- Christian religious path” (pp. 163-164). Paul Knitter envisions a new world of missions, one where the ultimate goal is no longer salvation through Christ to eternal life. Rather, the focus is on the reign of God emerging in our here and now. “The Kingdom of God is among you,” Jesus is purported to have said. Paul Knitter is eager, as a Christian, to join hands with those of other faiths in order to realize that very possibility. © Grand Valley State University � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. References Paul Knitter, Jesus and the Other Names, 1996 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RA-4-19960101 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1996-01-01 Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Title A name given to the resource Jesus and the Other Names, Christian Mission and Global Responsibility Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource eng Description An account of the resource Book Review created, delivered, or published by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on January 1, 1996 entitled "Jesus and the Other Names, Christian Mission and Global Responsibility", on the book Jesus and the Other Names, Christian Mission and Global Responsibility, written by Paul F. Knitter. Tags: Theology, Interfaith, Pluralism, Non-exclusive, Love, . Scripture references: Paul Knitter, Jesus and the Other Names, 1996. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Interfaith Love Non-exclusive Pluralism Theology https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4258e32ac42487d3f89d949f71c2ea32.pdf a7eddff54faf48f1e26febdc07ee419e PDF Text Text Interreligious Dialogue: What Is Required of Us? Article by Richard A. Rhem Minister of Preaching and Theological Inquiry Christ Community Church Spring Lake, Michigan Published in Perspectives A Journal of Reformed Thought May 1995, pp. 10-15 Pilate’s question, “Then what should I do with Jesus who is called the Messiah?” demands an answer as urgently today as two thousand years ago. By travel and the ubiquitous beams of communications satellites the world has shrunk to a neighborhood, and the devotees of the great religions of the world no longer live in isolation. Increasingly they practice their respective faith traditions in close proximity to each other. Not only the interweaving of the world’s religions within the fabric of the global community but the rise of militant fundamentalisms, fueling ethnic conflict and spawning terrorism, make it imperative that interreligious dialogue take place for the sake of the peace of the world. Political leaders and parties will always attempt to Co-opt the respective religious traditions for their own purposes, but at least the religions in their authentic expression need not condone such misuse, and, with genuine dialogue, a deeper understanding of other faith traditions would be a force for the creation of a more secure world—and a movement toward a reign of peace, surely the intention of the Creator God. For the Christian religion, interreligious dialogue calls for a serious engagement with Pilate’s question. Until we come to a new appraisal of the place of Jesus in the purpose of God and the revelation of that purpose, we will not be able to enter into real dialogue. Beginning with the absoluteness of Christianity based on the finality of God’s revelation in Jesus and a salvation constituted exclusively through his atoning death, we may enter discussion and evidence a civil tolerance but without the openness to new insight that alone makes for serious and honest dialogue. Tolerance may be present in people who are convinced that they possess the final truth but are unwilling to impose it on another. But such an attitude also precludes that such people will learn something from the other since they begin with the assumption that theirs is the exclusive truth. © Grand Valley State University   �Interreligious Dialogue Richard A. Rhem Page 2   Whatever revisioning interreligious dialogue may demand from other faith traditions, for the Christian tradition, a rethinking of its core creedal Christological formulations and their salvific implications is of first importance. The Quest of the Historical Jesus As I look across my desk at the shelf of books, the name of Jesus is prominent. Book after book published in the last few years seeks to uncover the mystery and meaning of this one who “comes to us as One unknown...,” to use Schweitzer’s familiar designation. Studies emanate from the Jesus Seminar people, as well as many beyond their ranks, such as the Catholic scholar Raymond Brown and the highly respected Jewish scholar E. P. Sanders. My eye catches the title of an older bundle of essays by Marinus de Jonge, Jesus: Inspiring and Disturbing Presence. Indeed. I move to the shelf and pull down the classic study by Albert Schweitzer, The Quest of the Historical Jesus. In his preface to the English translation, F. C. Burkitt refers to the sharp controversy that had been raging on the continent in the late nineteenth century over the attempt to discover the historical Jesus behind the Christ figure that appears in the writings, particularly of Paul. Such sharp battle, he notes, is somewhat foreign to the more genteel English, but even those whose lives of Jesus were “written with hate” have performed a great service in bringing to light an understanding “of the greatest historical problem in the history of our race.” The new understanding, Burkitt claims, makes clear that the object of attack was not the historical Jesus after all, but a temporary idea of Him, inadequate because it did not truly represent him or the world in which he lived, (vi) Schweitzer’s work brought the first quest to an end by pointing out the eschatological center of Jesus’ message in contrast to the portrait that portrayed Jesus as the ideal person of nineteenth-century, European society. With the rise of historical thinking, it was being recognized that historical research must seek to uncover the context of the first and second centuries if it would discover Jesus of Nazareth. Burkitt was confident that such an understanding would be taken for granted in the ongoing research into Christian origins. He cites a contemporary, Father Tyrrell, who claimed that Christianity was at a crossroads, but Burkitt little doubts that the church would come to terms with the results of historical research and bring the significance of Jesus Christ to fresh expression. That the eschatological prophet of Schweitzer’s description would need to be translated into another image if he were to be meaningfully appropriated in the twentieth century went without saying. The dawning historical consciousness was leading to the recognition, in Burkitt’s words, © Grand Valley State University �Interreligious Dialogue Richard A. Rhem Page 3   that absolute truth cannot be embodied in human thought and that its expression must always be clothed in symbols. It may be that we have to translate the hopes and fears of our spiritual ancestors into the language of our new world. (vii) That the Absolute can be expressed only in symbol, in metaphor, has been widely recognized through linguistic studies in the last half of the present century. Metaphor in its common understanding is a figure of speech in which there is a transfer of meaning—one term is illuminated by attaching to it some of the associations of another, so that metaphor is “that trope, or figure of speech, in which we speak of one thing in terms suggestive of another” (Soskice, 1985, 54). In this sense, all religious language and speech about God is metaphoric. That does not take away from the truthfulness of what is communicated; indeed, picture language often conveys a truth far better than a formula or abstract definition. It does, however, mean that the truth being conveyed and the linguistic form, the particular figure of speech, are not necessarily tied to each other. The same truth may be able to be conveyed by a different figure of speech, and in another culture or time a figure of speech that communicates the truth at issue may fail to bring that truth to expression with clarity. In other words, the symbols used to express the truth of the Absolute must not themselves be absolutized. The symbolic form of expression points beyond itself; one must “see through” the symbol to the reality symbolized. The form of expression, the specific figure of speech chosen to disclose the reality may be adequate or inadequate; it may disclose or it may mislead. Only those metaphoric forms that prove themselves in usage will last. But even those that prove valuable over the ages and generations must not be understood as identical with the truth or reality signified. There may arise in evolving cultural experience reason to cease using a metaphor or to modify its use if it becomes evident that it has conveyed not only aspects of truth but also misunderstanding that has proven detrimental – for example, the metaphor of God as Father in current feminist critique of patriarchy. When a metaphor for the Absolute is challenged, it must be recognized that it is not the Absolute that is challenged, but only the symbolic form used to disclose the truth of the Absolute. The Rise of Historical Thinking As he wrote the preface to Schweitzer’s The Quest of the Historical Jesus in 1910, Burkitt pointed to the growing recognition of the symbolic character of religious language in the wake of the rise of historical thinking in the nineteenth century. It was in that cultural context that the first quest of the historical Jesus took place, which Schweitzer showed to be naive. Further historical-critical research revealed the inadequacy of the historical methods employed and of the understanding of the nature of the biblical documents examined. Nevertheless, © Grand Valley State University �Interreligious Dialogue Richard A. Rhem Page 4   thinking historically is the mark of modernity and remains so in post-modernism which, in general, denies the possibility of formulating principles or doctrines identical with foundational reality, along with rejecting the Enlightenment claim that there are universal truths of reason. We can see the implications of this new way of thinking—thinking with historical consciousness—if we examine the work of Ernst Troeltsch. He is best identified as an exponent of historicism, a term used here to define the interpretation of the totality of cultural development (including the Christian tradition) as phenomena of the historical process. Troeltsch recognized that the advent of the historicalcritical method signified more than just a new means by which to gain knowledge of the past. Far more, it symbolized a revolution in the consciousness of the person of the West. He was convinced that the employment of this method was incompatible with the traditional Christian faith based on a supernaturalistic metaphysics. This clash was most evident, as we have noted above, in the area of biblical criticism. Troeltsch did not point to particular results of scholarly research that was troubling to believers; rather, he pointed to the method that yielded the disturbing data. The assumptions of the method, he claimed, were irreconcilable with the traditional dogmatic method. Traditional dogmatic formulation regarded the Scriptures as supernaturally inspired; the historian assumed they must be understood in terms of the historical context in which they arose, subject to the same principles of interpretation and criticism applied to any ancient literature. The historian, following this method, according to Troeltsch, could not assume events recorded in Scripture were supernatural interventions by God; rather, the historian must treat them in the causal nexus of their times. And rather than granting uniqueness to the central redemptive events to which the Bible pointed, the historian must treat them as analogous to all other historical events past and present. Further, the historian’s research can yield only probable results, an inadequate ground for faith. Troeltsch’s ability to recognize the revolutionary nature of the employment of the historical-critical method revealed to him what remained hidden for many theological thinkers, namely, that one has to make a choice to accept the method and its consequences or to reject the method as inappropriate. What could not be done was to use the method as long as the consequences were compatible with one’s theological presuppositions and reject it when they went counter to one’s prior belief. The church must choose, Troeltsch was certain, to employ the method and accept the consequences, letting burn what must burn and then building again a truer, if more humble, foundation. It was his conviction that historical thinking had penetrated the mind of the Western person so deeply that it was no longer possible to think in any other vein. Either the Christian tradition would © Grand Valley State University �Interreligious Dialogue Richard A. Rhem Page 5   accommodate itself to the spirit of the times or it would become a relic of the past. In his discussion of the significance of the historicity of Jesus for Christian faith, Troeltsch included Schleiermacher, Ritschl, and Herrmann in his criticism, for while the liberal Protestant tradition recognized the validity of the historicalcritical method for the investigation of Christian origins, it failed to recognize the relativity of all historical phenomena including Jesus of Nazareth. Consequently Troeltsch could but condemn their view that Jesus is the absolute Savior for all people of all times and places (cf. Die Bedeutung der Geschichtlichkeit Jesu für den Glauben p. 51). In Troeltsch’s view the very historical-critical approach to Christian origins, especially to Jesus himself, undercut any attempt to salvage from the uniformity of history a final and absolute revelation of God. Thus Troeltsch was convinced that the theology of the future would have to purge away the last vestiges of the old dogmatic approach and carry through more rigorously the requirements of the historical-critical method that draws all historical phenomena, Jesus of Nazareth not excepted, into the movement of historical process, allowing for no absolute uniqueness in the midst of the relative. Paradoxical as it may appear, Karl Barth quite agreed with Troeltsch—agreed, that is, that to subject Jesus to historical-critical research behind the witness of the New Testament is to level him down to one historical person among others, in whom there cannot possibly be found the final and definitive revelation of God. Of course, agreement with Troeltsch that having followed the path it did, there was no stopping halfway, does not imply that Barth advocates with Troeltsch that their successors should draw the logical conclusion as Troeltsch advocated. On the contrary, Barth discovers their fatal error in the course they chose to follow in the first place. It was not their decision to grant recognition to the use of the historical-critical method and then fail to draw the conclusions to which it led. Rather, it was their understanding of religion as an innate potential of the human spirit and their failure to see that, defined in such terms, the Christian faith was not being spoken of at all. If Christianity were a phenomenon of the religious capacity of the human person, then it would be one religion among others and could be understood only, as Troeltsch maintained, by a comparative historical study. In such an instance there could be no talk of an absolute and definitive revelatory significance or meaning in history. If one started where Troeltsch started, Barth maintained, one would end where Troeltsch ended. But then, according to Barth, we have to do not with the religion of revelation but with the revelation of religion (Church Dogmatics I, 2, 284), and the application of the historical-critical method will discover in Jesus no more than a man among other men and in Christianity no more than a religion among other religions. The History of Religions school is only the logical outcome of a theology that speaks of the believing person rather than of the revealing God. Theology that takes itself © Grand Valley State University �Interreligious Dialogue Richard A. Rhem Page 6   seriously can speak only from the revelation of God that has grasped it, paying homage to no worldview, be it ancient or modern, to no philosophical system, and to no anthropological analysis of the human religious capacity. Theology must speak from out of the revelation of God in Jesus Christ. Thus Barth completely repudiated the method of Troeltsch, and, to the dismay of the academic world, pursued the traditional dogmatic method, reducing historical-critical research to a secondary, helping role in the explication of the biblical witness to Jesus Christ. Barth’s repudiation of Troeltsch and the whole project of nineteenth-century liberalism prevailed. A whole generation of theologians was shaped by the theology of the Word that, while not a uniform movement, was at one in removing the truth of Christian faith from the results of historical investigation. But as the twentieth century nears its end, Troeltsch is being studied anew. Garrett E. Paul in a 1993 Christian Century article asks and answers in his title, “Why Troeltsch? Why Today? Theology for the 21st Century.” Dietrich Bonhoeffer had exposed the Achilles’ heel of Barth’s dogmatic method with his recognition of Barth’s “positivism of revelation.” Writing from prison to his friend Eberhard Bethge, Bonhoeffer pointed out that Barth was the first theologian to begin the criticism of religion but that he replaced it with a positivist doctrine of revelation that says in effect, “Take it or leave it.” In a later letter he affirmed Barth’s ethical observations as well as his dogmatic views, but went on to write: it was that he gave no concrete guidance, either in dogmatics or in ethics, on the non-religious interpretation of theological concepts. There lies his limitation, and because of it his theology of revelation becomes positivist, a “positivism of revelation,” as I put it. Bultmann, who joined Barth in the removal of Christian origins from historical investigation, claiming the necessity only of the “dass” of the historical Jesus for faith, also saw his disciples move away from this view as they engaged in “the new quest of the historical Jesus.” Presently the flood of studies being published, including the work of the Jesus Seminar scholars, indicates that the implications of historical thinking recognized and applied by Troeltsch will not go away. Karl Barth, arguably the greatest theological thinker of the century and among the greats of all time, was able by the power of his thought and the circumstances of his historical moment to stem the tide of historical thinking applied to theological formulation for a generation, but the kerygma sheltered in a safe haven denying investigation of historical foundations cannot finally be maintained no matter how brilliantly and powerfully proclaimed. Hans Küng in Great Christian Thinkers (1994) identifies Barth as one of a line of theologians—Paul, Origen, Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, and Schleiermacher— © Grand Valley State University �Interreligious Dialogue Richard A. Rhem Page 7   who effected a paradigm shift in theological understanding. But in his analysis of Barth, Küng claims that he initiated the paradigm shift to postmodernity but did not complete it. With great regard for Barth’s accomplishments, Küng nevertheless confirms Bonhoeffer’s claim made a half century ago. Recognizing that the later Barth was reevaluating the knowledge of God available from the world of creation, natural theology, and world religions, Kung maintains that in the end this dogmatic edifice conceived on such a large scale, stringently constructed and carefully built, had at least in principle (though most Barthians hardly noticed) been blown up! It is Küng’s contention that if Barth could start over, “he would attempt to work out a Christian theology in the context of the world religions and the world regions.” How would Barth go about this, according to Küng? He would have attempted to work out a responsible historical-critical dogmatics in the light of an exegesis with a historical-critical foundation, in order in this way co translate the original Christian message... for the future that had dawned in such a way that it was again understood as a liberating address from God. (120) And, Küng contends, the “historical Jesus,” apart from whom the “Christ of dogma” becomes a myth to be manipulated at will, might “again become of the utmost importance and urgency.” We have come, it would appear, full circle during the course of this century. The current reconsideration of Ernst Troeltsch stems from his early grasp of the implications of historical thinking for theological formulation. He was an interdisciplinary thinker at home in various realms of inquiry. He faced up to the demise of Eurocentricism and the relativity of all historical events and human knowledge – religious, philosophical, and scientific. Thus he acknowledged that Christian faith was relative to its largely Western orientation and environment. At the beginning of this century Troeltsch foresaw the global pluralism with which we are finally beginning to come to terms. In 1910, Burkitt was expressing the implication of a new way of thinking, thinking historically, thinking in terms of development, the evolving conception of truth. Such a way of thinking is widely accepted in our world, but it has been resisted in the conservative sectors of the church because it can lead to the morass of relativism and the denial of the Absolute and of absolute truth. But such a result is not the necessary consequence of historical thinking. Rather, it can simply lead to the recognition expressed by Burkitt—that every human attempt to express absolute truth is only a relative expression—relative to one’s cultural context—a partial grasp of the absolute that will always transcend any historically conditional expression. Further, that expression is possible only in symbolic form, by use of metaphor. © Grand Valley State University �Interreligious Dialogue Richard A. Rhem Page 8   My purpose in introducing the limits and possibilities of historical thinking is in order to point the way to authentic and fruitful interreligious dialogue. Such dialogue is imperative for our world. The frightening prospect of a world in the throes of religious conflict makes it incumbent upon us to find a way to effect communication and mutual respect among the world religions. That will not be possible unless we are willing to apply the insights of historical thinking to the core credal development of Christology, including the various theories of the atonement that have been formulated throughout the centuries. The Development of Doctrine Burkitt was too confident in 1910. The twentieth century has not seen a fresh expression of the meaning of Jesus Christ in the church. Rather there has been strenuous resistance to any revisioning of core Christological formulations. This resistance to revisioning has been pointed out by the Anglican priest John Bowden in Jesus: The Unanswered Questions (1988). He is troubled by the church’s refusal to engage in serious discussion of the unavoidable questions surrounding Jesus that have arisen as our knowledge of the cultural context of his life and the checkered history of credal development have become apparent. Bowden writes from the perspective of faith, from within the tradition of the Christian church, and for love of the faith and the church. But he raises the unanswered and disturbing questions that must be addressed if the church is to engage the spiritual quest of those for whom responsible, intelligent inquiry must accompany the commitment of faith. Thus, his purpose in writing is pastoral and positive. From a broad spectrum of research he has distilled the critical questions that demand a hearing. Reflecting on his own theological training, he finds it remarkable that, after a thorough immersion in the historical-critical study of Scripture, he found quite a different approach to the history of Christian doctrine up to the year 451, the year of the Council of Chalcedon and the formulation of the classical statement about the natures of Jesus Christ. The theological reasoning and philosophical argument of those early centuries used the Bible in quite another fashion than he had learned to use it in his biblical studies. While the different cultural patterns of the early centuries of Christian dogmatic formulation were recognized, the conclusions of the church fathers were not to be questioned after Chalcedon; they were a given. But, Bowden contends, the conclusions of those early centuries need to be questioned as seriously as the gospel record has been. Biblical criticism must be joined by doctrinal criticism that will examine the historical development in those early centuries that culminated in the classic credal definitions of Incarnation and Trinity, an historical development about which we have data enough to trace the interplay of cultural forces involving not only concern for the truth but political power plays and ecclesiastical intrigue. We really know the story. We © Grand Valley State University �Interreligious Dialogue Richard A. Rhem Page 9   have simply refused to draw out the implications for this core credal affirmation. But until we do, we will not be able to engage in honest interreligious discussion. Doctrinal formulation is a human enterprise. Human thought forms and human language are the tools of such formulation. To acknowledge that as fundamental for historical thinking is not a denial of absolute truth, as previously stated. It is only to recognize that any particular articulation of the truth cannot be absolutized and be raised to a status beyond further reflection and possible reformulation. It is simply to acknowledge that it is a given of our human historical condition that we are limited to relative apprehensions, partial understandings that need always to be adjusted in light of new information gathered from research and ongoing historical experience. John Hick is a Christian thinker who has utilized the distinction between the Absolute and the respective relative apprehensions of the Absolute in the great world religions. Being a Christian, he has applied that insight to the development of the Christological formulations of the early centuries in the interest of developing a Christology in a pluralistic age. Christology Revisited John Hick has a ready grasp of the development of the Christian theological tradition as well as a deep knowledge of other religious traditions. For him, the window to the Real, to God, is Jesus and the Christian tradition. But he believes that the Real is apprehended through other traditions as well. Thus he believes there is a pluralism of ways of salvation. He argues his case in The Metaphor of God Incarnate (1993), in which he contends that the necessary revision of Christological understanding that alone can make way for genuine interreligious dialogue will involve “liberation from the network of theories—about Incarnation, Trinity and Atonement….” Hick contends that divine incarnation in its standard Christian form, in which both genuine humanity and genuine deity are insisted upon, has never been given a satisfactory literal sense; but that on the other hand it makes excellent metaphorical sense….We see in Jesus a human being extraordinarily open to God’s influence and thus living to an extraordinary extent as God’s agent on earth, “incarnating” the divine purpose for human life. He thus embodied within the circumstances of his time and place the ideal of humanity living in openness and response to God, and in doing so he “incarnated” a love that reflects the divine love. (12) Hick, in a sense, is attempting to fulfill the task that in 1910 Burkitt foresaw as necessary if the church were going to face the consequences of the historical study of Christian origins and translate the figure of Jesus into an understanding meaningful to the twentieth century. © Grand Valley State University �Interreligious Dialogue Richard A. Rhem Page10   Yet, the work of translation does not proceed without resistance, as Bowden points out. In his opening chapter, Hick himself reviews the explosion that erupted following the publication in 1977 of The Myth of God Incarnate, a volume of essays by leading New Testament scholars and theologians, of which he was one. “Thundering sermons and clerical pronouncements,” along with articles in the British press called for the Anglicans among the authors to resign their orders, and publication of a flurry of conservative retorts erected a wall of opposition to the insights and implications as they were articulated in The Myth of God Incarnate. From the tenor of the responses, one would have thought nothing in the church’s understanding had been affected in spite of two hundred years of intensive research and discussion. While the results of the historicalcritical study of the Bible had gained some acceptance, there obviously remained a formidable barrier to the same kind of investigation of the historical process that transformed Jesus of Nazareth into the ontological Son of God, second person of the Trinity, in the credal development of the fourth and fifth centuries. Hick addresses the third element of the doctrinal triad he contends needs revisioning, the understanding of the death of Jesus as an atoning sacrifice. He traces the history of the development of the doctrine, pointing out the cultural contexts that influenced the respective theories over the centuries. Then he asks, as in the case with other doctrines, what was the original experience out of which atonement theory arose, for it is that same gracious, liberating experience that we seek in our day. Rejecting the idea of an objective justice requiring punishment for wrongdoing, a moral law that God can and must satisfy by punishing the innocent in place of the guilty, Hick searches for a way to express the idea of atonement in the broad sense, in the etymological meaning of at-one-ment becoming one with God—not ontologically but, rather, being in right relationship with God, being in a state of salvation. He points to Eastern Orthodoxy as a valuable source for understanding with its idea of restoration to the divine image, salvation as a process of transformation. In such a view, “Jesus’ death was a piece with his life, expressing a total integrity in his self-giving to God; and his cross continues to inspire and challenge on a level that does not involve the atonement theories developed by the Churches.” With such an understanding of the death of Jesus, Hick is able to find similar meanings of salvation in other religious faiths. Thus he contends, these different conceptions of salvation are specifications of what, in a generic formula, is the transformation of human existence from selfcenteredness to a new orientation centered in the divine Reality.... The great world religions, then, are ways of salvation. Each claims to constitute an effective context within which the transformation of human existence can and does take place from self-centeredness to Realitycenteredness. (136) © Grand Valley State University �Interreligious Dialogue Richard A. Rhem Page11   With such a perspective, genuine interreligious dialogue can begin. It will become an empirical process of seeking to discover the fruits of the respective religions in human life. The alternative to such a stance is to bring to the discussion an understanding of atonement that necessitates a Christian absolutism of the exclusivist variety—that outside of the knowledge of and faith in Jesus Christ, his death and resurrection, salvation is not possible, or, an inclusivist view that salvation is only through Christ but explicit knowledge and trust are not necessary to receive the benefits of his death and resurrection. The ranks of the exclusivists are thinning. Evangelicals are increasingly trying to find a broader arena for God’s saving embrace. Clark Pinnock’s A Wideness in God’s Mercy: The Finality of Jesus Christ in a World of Religions and John Sanders’s No Other Name: An Investigation into the Destiny of the Unevangelized attempt this, although they thread a tortuous way because they have not yet shed an earlier view of biblical authority nor questioned the core Christological formulation. Schubert Ogden suggests an alternative to Hick. In a 1993 address at the Divinity School in Chicago, he argued against the pluralists’ claim as well as rejecting the claims of exclusivists and inclusivists alike. But in his approach there is also a revisioning of the classical Christological formulations in which salvation is constituted through Jesus Christ alone. Rather than a constitutive Christology, Ogden argues for a representative Christology. In this view, the Christ event represents the claim that “salvation has always already been constituted by what Christians are wont to think and speak of as the primordial and everlasting love of God.” Whether and where that love of God might elsewhere be represented is to be determined in the discussion without prior commitment to exclusivism, inclusivism, or pluralism. One simply enters the dialogue open to the truth claim of the other. My intention is not to advocate Hick or Ogden or any other thinker who is addressing the matter of interreligious dialogue. Rather, I wish to point to the necessity of honestly drawing out the consequences of the recognition that human grasp of the truth develops, evolves, and needs ongoing assessment and adjustment—and sometimes conceptions need to be rejected. By use of historical imagination the originating experience that gave rise to a theological formulation needs to be recovered in order to express the same reality differently, in order to make the experience available in a totally different cultural context. Rather than seeing this as a burden, a cause for fear and defensiveness, it should be seen as an exciting challenge. Is not such a pursuit of the truth to love God with mind as well as heart? And is not the recognition that every biblical and theological expression is marked by the human and historical limitations that adhere to all human thought the reason there is need for continual reformation? To be Reformed is not to be in possession of a set of timeless and eternal truths but, rather, to refuse to absolutize any human arrangement or formulation. It is © Grand Valley State University �Interreligious Dialogue Richard A. Rhem Page12   not to be saddled with a set of truths that were once new, innovative, and destabilizing of the established order of the sixteenth century, or the first century. It is an approach, a spirit, a posture that is open to new knowledge, fresh insight, and cumulative human experience within historical development. The church has managed to spend the century in a state of schizophrenia, pursuing research in the academy and sharing the results in the lecture hall, while the liturgy, prayers, hymns, and sermons have given little evidence of the honest engagement with insights of the modern period. My mentor, Hendrikus Berkhof, claimed the only heresy was to make the gospel boring. I would add another—the heresy of orthodoxy, the evidence of a failure of nerve and lack of trust in the living God. It is the heresy of an inordinate lust for certitude that seeks premature closure, the shutting down of the quest for truth and growth of knowledge in the magnificent and mysterious cosmos by the creatures whom the Creator calls to consciousness and embraces in a grace that pervades the unfolding cosmic process. References: John Stephen Bowden. Jesus: The Unanswered Questions. Abingdon Press, 1989. F.C. Burkitt, Preface to The Quest of the Historical Jesus by Albert Schweitzer. Dover Publications, Dover Ed edition, 2005. John Hick. The Metaphor of God Incarnate: Christology in a Pluralistic Age (Second edition). Westminster John Knox Press, 2nd edition, 2006. Ernst Troeltsch. Die Bedeutung der Geschichtlichkeit Jesu für den Glauben. © Grand Valley State University � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. References John S. Bowden, Jesus: The Unanswered Questions, 1989, John Hick, The Metaphor of God Incarnate, 2006, Albert Schweitzer, Quest of the Historical Jesus, 2005, Ernst Troeltsch, Die Bedeutung der Geschichtlichkeit Jesu fur den Glauben. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RA-4-19950501 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-05-01 Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Title A name given to the resource Interreligious Dialogue: What is Required of Us? Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Perspectives: A Journal of Reformed Thought Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource eng Description An account of the resource Article created, delivered, or published by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on May 1, 1995 entitled "Interreligious Dialogue: What is Required of Us?", it appeared in Perspectives, pp. 10-15. Tags: Global Community, Pluralism, Interfaith, Historical Jesus, Metaphor, Grace, Mystery, Incarnation. Scripture references: John S. Bowden, Jesus: The Unanswered Questions, 1989, John Hick, The Metaphor of God Incarnate, 2006, Albert Schweitzer, Quest of the Historical Jesus, 2005, Ernst Troeltsch, Die Bedeutung der Geschichtlichkeit Jesu fur den Glauben.. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Global Community Grace Historical Jesus Incarnation Interfaith Metaphor Mystery Pluralism https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c4c20c42bf96629eb62ee2b7b5a17b05.pdf fe18060ae9231b42e53bab0b4ec7062c PDF Text Text Life Through Dying An Article By Richard A. Rhem Minister of Preaching and Theological Inquiry Christ Community Church Spring Lake, Michigan Published in Perspectives A Journal of Reformed Thought November 1994, pp. 3-4 “Life, what a beautiful choice!” So goes a commercial for pro-life in the culture war over abortion. The ads are tastefully done featuring beautiful children frolicking in idyllic scenes of delight. Fair enough as long as it is recognized at the same time that there are also children born into horror whose existence is to be marked by dehumanizing tragedy. Recently I have been, as pastors often are, thrust into the drama of real life-anddeath choices. Not choices about whether to bring a fetus to term but, rather, whether to keep a body alive by means of medical technology. Three times within a four-month period I walked with families through the anguish of making the decision to let go, to allow a loved one to die. The three had been my people over many years; they were dear to me, as were their families as well—spouses, children, grandchildren. In periods of five days to ten days I watched and waited with the families. The experience was as filled with beauty as it was filled with anguish. The bonding of children and grandchildren in solidarity with a parent or grandparent was moving. Thankfully, in all three cases there were living wills in order, and the desires of the person in question were clear. Those desires were honored. The deceased had, while in good health, chosen not to be sustained in a less-than-human condition. Two of the three died in the hospital; the third had been sent home to die. During the five-day vigil at the home, we watched life ebb. The two grandchildren stood on either side of the bed, rubbing their grandfather’s arms, intensely monitoring each labored breath. The love was palpable. After a time, I went to this dear man and took his hand. In his ear I spoke the benediction. I spoke his name, asking him, if he were able, to squeeze my hand if all were well. There was a feeble but certain response. I kissed him and left. Within a couple hours he entered that eternal light. It struck me then, as it had in the hospital earlier, that in honoring his choice to die without radical intervention, he (as they) had in actuality chosen life. © Grand Valley State University   �Life Through Dying Richard A. Rhem Page 2   Of late I have been preparing a series of sermons on the wisdom literature of the Hebrew Scriptures. Israel’s wisdom teachers were careful observers of human experience. With clear-eyed candor, they recorded their observations of how life really is, not how we long for it to be. Their legacy is the wise counsel of sages who have discerned a way that leads to well-being. Their teaching contrasted the way of wisdom that leads to life and the way of foolishness whose end is destruction. The challenge is to choose the path of wisdom, thereby finding life. Choose life! In an early writing, In Man We Trust, Walter Brueggemann says, The man of Proverbs is not the servile, self-abasing figure often urged by our one-sided reading of Scripture in later Augustinian-Lutheran theological tradition. Rather he is an able, self-reliant, caring, involved, strong person who has a significant influence over the course of his own life and over the lives of his fellows. (118) Thus the challenge of the Deuteronomist: ... I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live.... (Deut. 30:19) The human person as understood in the wisdom tradition was both capable and responsible to choose wisely and thus to find the way of life. I had never spent much time with the wisdom literature. But in preaching from Job, Proverbs, and Ecclesiastes I have become aware of a rich vein of biblical teaching that calls the human person to maturity, to take responsibility for one’s life by making responsible choices, choices that at either end of life’s spectrum are choices of life and death. Paradoxically, I am realizing that a choice for death sometimes means a choice for life. In the current cultural war raging on questions of abortion and euthanasia, one hears that life is sacred, God’s gift, and thus that it is wrong to abort a fetus or to end a life of irremediable and terrible suffering. These are exceedingly complex matters and simplistic slogans will not do. But, that we are called to make very difficult choices cannot be denied. The question is not whether life is sacred; it is. Life is God’s gift. But the more we understand about the mystery of human existence, the more medical technology makes possible intrauterine procedures and life-sustaining measures at the end, the more incumbent it is upon us to make choices that lead to life, wise choices made upon careful, serious reflection and discussion before the face of God. One sometimes hears the argument that life is a continuum from conception to death. Biologically, that is irrefutably true. But is biology the measure of life? Is that the life spoken of by the wisdom teachers? If so, then there will be no real © Grand Valley State University �Life Through Dying Richard A. Rhem Page 3   choices to make. But if life involves more than biological reality, if life involves also some quality of humanness—humane existence—then, given what is possible through the advancement of medical science, the choice for life will demand serious thought and prayerful contemplation. And the choices will be made, not simply regarding the immediate subject whose situation calls for decision, but the larger implications touching the others immediately involved, indeed, the community. Resistance to making decisions and taking initiative is a refusal to be responsible and accountable as a human person, a human society before the face of God. I found the wisdom literature a strange new world in the Scriptures. As Brueggemann points out, at first blush it may seem that wisdom threatens the traditional idea of God’s sovereignty. Not so. What is at issue is not whether God is sovereign but, rather, the tenor of that sovereignty. It is not the more traditional sovereign who appears angry or at least grudging. The sovereignty of God affirmed in wisdom is that of a God who accepts the legitimacy of his rule and therefore the legitimacy of the freedom of his human subjects. (119) The church has too long kept people in spiritual adolescence rather than calling them to maturity, to decision making grounded in honest observance of human experience, cultural development, and growing insight into cosmic reality. In Brueggemann’s words, the church has fostered a kind of piety that “places it all in God’s hands” and an understanding of prayer which looks blindly to God for guidance and answers. Too often this is a not very subtle form of copping out so that we don’t have to make our own choices and exercise responsibility. (20) Life is a beautiful choice—life as humane existence. To choose for life is sometimes to let go, to let die, in the confidence that in life, in death, the Lord and Giver of life will never let us go. Reference: Walter Brueggemann. In Man We Trust: The Neglected Side of Biblical Faith. John Knox Press, 1973; Wipf & Stock Publishers, 2006. © Grand Valley State University � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. References Walter Brueggemann, In Man We Trust: The Neglected Side of Biblical Faith, 1973, 2006 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RA-4-19941101 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1994-11-01 Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Title A name given to the resource Life Through Dying Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Perspectives: A Journal of Reformed Thought Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource eng Description An account of the resource Article created, delivered, or published by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on November 1, 1994 entitled "Life Through Dying", it appeared in Perspectives, pp. 3-4. Tags: Hebrew Scriptures, Wisdom Literature, Death, Life, Nature of God. Scripture references: Walter Brueggemann, In Man We Trust: The Neglected Side of Biblical Faith, 1973, 2006. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Death Hebrew Scriptures Life Nature of God Wisdom Literature https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f6c9d7442b0329a1599ff0235ca04423.pdf 90d977968c1498f6521b610cfaa0cb70 PDF Text Text The Vision Must Not Die An Article Reviewing the Vision of Arie R. Brouwer As Shown in His Writings by Richard A. Rhem Minister of Preaching and Theological Inquiry Christ Community Church Spring Lake, Michigan Published in Perspectives A Journal of Reformed Thought March 1994, pp. 11-13 On October 7,1993, the Rev. Dr. Arie R. Brouwer died after a ten-month struggle against cancer. His death was noted in the New York Times, recognizing the worldwide dimensions of his ministry. A brief memorial piece appeared in this journal in the December 1993 issue. With his passing the church has lost a significant leader, one of the most significant leaders in the last half of the century. This is true for his own denomination and true as well for the world church as it has come together in the ecumenical movement. Arie has died but the vision by which he lived must not die, a vision for “the unity and renewal of the Christian community as sign, instrument, and foretaste of the unity and renewal of the community of humankind and the whole creation.” Ours was a long-time friendship going back to college days. Our paths continued to cross though we journeyed in divergent directions, he holding the top executive posts in the Reformed Church in America and the ecumenical councils; I remaining essentially in one congregation. But over the last four years of his life we were able to spend meaningful time together and be in frequent communication. In a most remarkable way, from divergent paths, we discovered to our mutual delight that we shared a common faith, understanding, and vision for the church. I know of no one who worked more faithfully and consistently to implement that vision than Arie Brouwer. I know of no one who articulated it with greater clarity or passion. As tribute to him, out of my profound respect for the ministry he carried out, I want to lift up some aspects of his vision. The aspects I have selected reflect the areas about which we reflected together and about which he has written. While making no claim to present the full spectrum of his vision and passion, I am certain what follows is faithful to that vision and passion at its heart. © Grand Valley State University   �The Vision Must Not Die Richard A. Rhem Page 2   That the Church Be One Arie’s commitment to the ecumenical movement was unwavering to the end. Even following his resignation from the office of General Secretary of the National Council of Churches of Christ he remained convinced that the only way into the future for the church lay in a movement toward unity. In an article that appeared in The Christian Century (Feb. 23, 1990) he raised the question Can the mainline find new life on the ecumenical way? He answered with a strong affirmative. He was well aware of the obstacles to a truly ecumenical Christian church. Indeed, he had faced them head-on, daring to confront entrenched power and vested interest that obstructed the way to renewal. In chapter 9 of his journal, dated June 11,1993, he entitled the entry “Unfinished Business—My Ecumenical Vocation.” He referred to some correspondence he had received that gave him occasion to speak positively of his own opportunity to use his positions of influence. He felt fortunate to be able to use that influence in order to empower the institutions he administered to serve their respective constituencies for the well being of the human community. He expressed the hope that “somewhere beyond the far horizon” there are church leaders in formation who will have “the will, wit and wisdom” to lead the church to the realization of the ecumenical vision. He recognized the present survival posture of the mainline denominations. Simply taking measures to survive, their leaders are distracted from the ecumenical vision, and the resources available to the councils are drained away. It is now widely recognized that the respective mainline denominations are in very serious trouble, their future in the present configuration in doubt. He wrote an appendix to that journal entry, cited above, which he entitled “A Few Notes on Ecumenical Immobility.” There he pointed to the fact that the ecumenical councils of churches, the main instruments of the ecumenical movement, are now almost completely captive to the churches. In The Christian Century, June 27July 4, 1990, Arie documented the resistance to restructuring he had encountered, listing the ecclesiological claims of the churches, the institutional interests of the denominations, economic control, and ideological alignments within the churches and the Council itself. Writing with the intimate knowledge of an insider, he contended: With the churches in control, it follows that most of the leading participants in most council meetings are either ecclesiastical bureaucrats or hierarchs, who are mostly prisoners of their positions. Real movement toward unity would render most of their present positions redundant. ... Very few bureaucrats, church bureaucrats included, are willing to put their positions at risk—even in the face of open violation of truth or justice, much less for the sake of a vision only dimly perceived. (Journal, 47) © Grand Valley State University �The Vision Must Not Die Richard A. Rhem Page 3   Confronted by such a sobering realization, Arie yet remained hopeful; his vision did not waver. If the present institutional framework of the Councils offered no possibility of renewal, then another way must be found. That was part of his greatness. He recognized the historical imprisonment of church structures. He worked with a certain freedom as a church executive, freedom from the numbing paralysis that immobilizes lesser leaders who expend their energy shoring up outworn structures. In an article published in The Christian Century, he indicated that he was aware already a decade earlier that the dwindling away of national denominational program bureaucracies was inevitable and the trend irreversible. Not happy about it, he nevertheless neither went on the defensive nor threw up his hands in despair. Rather he plunged into the leadership of the conciliar movement with great energy and hope. The future he felt would lie in ecumenical relationship—the churches needed more than a new way of acting; they needed a new way of thinking, a new self-understanding. “Only thus,” he contended, “can they be set free from cultural captivity, ecclesiastical enchantment, institutional survivalism, traditional confessionalism and other ‘isms’ that bind them.” Arie gave this effort his best wisdom and strength of leadership but finally concluded renewal could not come as long as the present framework of the councils remained in place. Still he would not give up the vision; he sought yet another way. In the last months of his life he served as interim pastor of the Glen Rock Community Church in New Jersey. His excitement about returning to the parish, to preparation of liturgy and preaching was evident. Here he saw the arena for renewal for the whole church “from below.” The Ecumenical Congregation In his journal he spoke of his vision for an ecumenical congregation. He noted the number of congregations that have represented in their membership a plurality of diverse traditions and saw these concrete communities as an “interesting ecumenical opportunity.” If the diverse traditions could be consciously articulated in congregational life ... their particular contribution to the fullness of the Gospel (the tradition) recognized and affirmed and then integrated in a recognizable way into the life and worship, particularly the worship, of the congregation, then I believe we would create, yes create, congregations with a sturdiness and attractiveness that would give them a burst of new life, perhaps even ending the mainline malaise. (42) His focus turned to the local congregation, not as withdrawal from the ecumenical enterprise, but as the instrument through which to bring renewal to the whole church. He became convinced that the way forward in the ecumenical movement was to be found in a movement from below. He cites the example of the base communities of Latin America but sees it as a mistake simply to adopt © Grand Valley State University �The Vision Must Not Die Richard A. Rhem Page 4   that strategy. Rather, he contends, “we must create the forms for such movements from below appropriate to our own culture” (43). For the United States, he was convinced, the model was ecumenical congregations. He speaks of his first efforts at creating such a congregation, efforts cut short by his cancer. But his passion for the vision is evident as he writes, From such ecumenical congregations could, I believe, eventually grow a National Christian Council that could gradually transform the anachronistic and divisive denominational structures that are now stifling the ecumenical movement. Deprived of their determinative divisiveness, the denominations could serve a function in such a council much like that of the orders within the Roman Catholic Church. (43) In his recognition of the congregation as the instrument through which renewal would come to the whole church, Arie clung to his ecumenical vision but demonstrated again, as he had throughout his various executive leadership roles, his ability to let go of anachronistic structures and trust the Spirit to create new wineskins—and new wine. In his last work in a parish he was realizing a deep longing, “the longing to rearticulate my faith—not in an academic work of theology, but in song and sermon and liturgy—in precisely such an ecumenical congregation.” A Spirit-Seeking Tradition As he was gathering his writings and speeches from the decade of his ecumenical leadership, he found three themes recurring—elements of renewal that he stated thus in a speech he delivered at that time: A life-celebrating liturgy (worship and faith), A community-building structure (order and life and work), A Spirit-seeking tradition (theology, doctrine and dogma). When he was forced to lay down his work in the spring of 1993 he was deeply engaged in the first element, creating a life-celebrating liturgy. Much of his vocational life was given over to creating community-building structures, but that I must leave to others to record. Here let me lift up that third element of renewal —a Spirit-seeking tradition. Arie’s theological pilgrimage brought him to an ever-greater appreciation of the Spirit as the source of the living tradition of the church. His ecumenical encounter with orthodoxy impacted Arie deeply. In a lecture entitled “On Being Reformed in the Ecumenical Movement,” he quoted the Greek Orthodox theologian Georges Florovsky who claimed that © Grand Valley State University �The Vision Must Not Die Richard A. Rhem Page 5   loyalty to tradition means not only concord with the past, but in a certain sense freedom from the past.... Tradition is the constant abiding of the Spirit, and not only the memory of words. Tradition is a charismatic, not an historical principle. (Bible, Church, Tradition, vol. 1, 80.) Arie admits that following the Spirit is a risky journey, a risk Reformed scholasticism did its best to reduce. He writes, The scholastics defended the deposit of the tradition but did not sustain the dynamic of the tradition. They stressed the testament of the Spirit, but neglected the testimony of the Spirit. They followed past confessions but did not lead in present confessing; they preserved the Reformed faith but did not pursue reforming the faith. (Ecumenical Testimony, 310f.) The tradition congealed, he points out, at the Great Synod of Dort (1618-1619), and immediately thereafter the Dutch delegates, meeting in a separate session, “froze the tradition solid,” declaring that the creeds were “in all things conformable to the Word of God.” The die was cast – ongoing theological inquiry was ruled out of bounds from that time forward. Arie describes the disastrous affect this absolutizing of an historically conditioned credal formulation has had on the church. It will not do, he claims, simply to chip away at the frozen forms. Rather, If we want the tradition to flow freely and clearly as the water of life for a thirsty world, we will need to thaw it out. (311) The lecture, delivered at Western Theological Seminary, was printed in this journal (October 1990) and three persons were invited to respond to it, one a Christian Reformed pastor-theologian. Dr. Clarence Boomsma, for whom Arie had profound respect. Boomsma was very affirming of the lecture but claimed that the place and authority of the Bible needed to be firmly established and, further, he maintained that the role of Scripture was “muted and unclear” in the discussion of both our Reformed tradition and the ecumenical movement. In response to that critique, Arie wrote that the place and role of Scripture was indeed a difference between them. I have long struggled with what I have come to think of as the fundamental irony of the Reformed tradition: While insisting that the Word of God written has been given to us by the Spirit, we have often made the Spirit captive to that Word. And this in the face of the Scripture’s own clear testimony that the Spirit cannot be bound. We can transcend the irony if we affirm that even as the Canons of Dort cannot bind the Word of God, so the canons of Scripture cannot bind the Spirit of God — The church is reformed by the Spirit of God and according to the Word of God. (Perspectives, Oct. 1990, 13.) © Grand Valley State University �The Vision Must Not Die Richard A. Rhem Page 6   For Arie, the sense of the Spirit as the source of the living tradition of the church was a growing edge. In Ecumenical Testimony he published an article that had appeared in The Reformed Journal in the mid-seventies under the title, “Worship in the Reformed Church in America.” He retitled it “A Life-Embracing Liturgy,” and in his introductory comments noted that if he were to write the article in 1991 he would write one key paragraph differently. I would not say, “The Word of God renews the Church,” but rather the Spirit of God. According to the Word, to be sure, but in the power of the Spirit, who is “The Lord and Giver of Life.” Already then I mostly thought that, but apparently not yet firmly enough to challenge the safety devices of Reformed scholasticism that have so long subjected the Spirit to the Word—especially the Word written. That subjugation I believe to be the major impediment to the renewal of the tradition. (Ecumenical Testimony, 226) In the end it was the renewal of the whole church for which Arie longed, and it was his conviction that the Reformed community was strategically positioned to spearhead such renewal through openness to the Spirit. Precisely because we have understood ourselves at our best as a reform movement in the one Church of Christ—not as something separate and apart—we are committed at the core of our being to a church: one, holy, catholic and apostolic. Our calling to reform the tradition then can be accomplished only by engaging the whole tradition of the whole church in its mission to the whole world. (Ecumenical Testimony, 313L) The Vision Must Not Die In the Foreword to Ecumenical Testimony, which Arie invited me to write, I expressed my profound respect and admiration for the leadership he had given to the church, noting that his solid rootedness in his own particular tradition combined with the breadth of exposure he experienced in the world church resulted in a clear-eyed view of the promise and peril of tradition. Deep formation in his Dutch Calvinist pietism and mysticism combined with an historical sense and the dynamism of the Spirit to create newness made him a rare visionary leader. Only God’s Spirit, “The Lord and giver of life,” can renew the church. That, Arie Brouwer knew well. Yet his sturdy Calvinist spirit understood that not as a passive acquiescence to the inexorable drift of historical trends and circumstances from which he could not escape. Trusting the Spirit, Arie acted, led, sought the will of God. Of God’s will he wrote, We seek it; we search it out with a passion. As we discover the will of God, we strive to do the will of God in order that in our doing what we know, we may learn what we do not know. (Ecumenical Testimony, 317) © Grand Valley State University �The Vision Must Not Die Richard A. Rhem Page 7   To lose such a leader is a very great loss. Arie was my friend. I miss him. But my grief is greater when I think of what the church and world have lost. However, he has left us a legacy of writings and sermons in which the vision shines forth. His life was fruitful, indeed, but if we would return to his words and open ourselves to the Spirit that animated his vision, his life may prove even more fruitful in his death. He would not be the first for whom that is true. Arie has died; the vision must not die. References: Arie R. Brouwer. Ecumenical Testimony (Historical Series of the Reformed Church in America). Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1991. Arie R. Brouwer. Overcoming the Threat of Death: A Journal of One Christian’s Encounter With Cancer. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1994. © Grand Valley State University � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. References Arie R. Brouwer, Ecumenical Testimony, 1991, Overcoming the Threat of Death, 1994 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RA-4-19940301 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1994-03-01 Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Title A name given to the resource The Vision Must Not Die Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Perspectives: A Journal of Reformed Thought Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource eng Description An account of the resource Article created, delivered, or published by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on March 1, 1994 entitled "The Vision Must Not Die", it appeared in Perspectives, pp. 11-13. Tags: Ecumenical, Church, Diversity, Liturgy, Spirit, Reformed Tradition, Nature of Scripture. Scripture references: Arie R. Brouwer, Ecumenical Testimony, 1991, Overcoming the Threat of Death, 1994. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Church Diversity Ecumenical Liturgy Nature of Scripture Reformed Tradition Spirit https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/74362c1eae2c092fa2a66182e6759314.pdf 549f5dfc9440dca312e0f7a2725295ad PDF Text Text   Hermeneutics for Preaching: Approaches to Contemporary Interpretations of Scripture Raymond Bailey, editor (Nashville: Broadman Press, 1992} By Richard A. Rhem Minister of Preaching and Theological Inquiry Christ Community Church Spring Lake, Michigan Published in The Princeton Seminary Bulletin, Volume XV, Number 2, New Series, 1994, pp. 230-231 This is an important volume because of its strong insistence on the necessity of executing the hermeneutical task in the preparation and delivery of the sermon. The insistence rules out a naive, “I simply preach the Bible.” Following an introductory chapter, “Hermeneutics: A Necessary Art,” by the contributing editor Raymond Bailey, there follow seven chapters, each describing a hermeneutical model, putting the model into practice in the interpretation of a biblical passage, issuing in a sermon on the passage exegeted, and concluding with a brief reflection on the whole process. The seven models described and put to use are as follows: historical, canonical, literary, rhetorical, African-American, philosophical, and theological. The format of these chapters is well conceived. Besides Bailey, six other writers contribute an essay and a sermon each. As is often the case in such collections, there is an uneven quality in the contributions. James Earl Massey executes the intention of the format most successfully with an excellent discussion of AfricanAmerican preaching and an equally excellent example of the hermeneutical perspective put into practice in the sermon. One hopes his review of black preaching might impact all preaching. The other sermons disappoint. Even though the volume as a whole and the individual contributions evidence a familiarity with hermeneutical theory and practice from Schleiermacher to Gadamer and Ricoeur, one fails to find the best insights of the respective models becoming fruitful in the sermons. Rather, the sermons for the most part smack of a kind of individualistic pietism that could be preached with little regard to the interpretive models set forth. The idea of the volume is excellent; the call to hermeneutical consciousness and responsibility imperative; the format is well conceived; the concrete execution is disappointing. © Grand Valley State University   � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. References Bailey, ed., Hermeneuticals for Preaching, 1992 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RA-4-19940101 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1994-01-01 Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Title A name given to the resource Hermeneutics for Preaching: Approaches to Contemporary Interpretations of Scripture Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available The Princeton Seminary Bulletin Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource eng Description An account of the resource Book Review created, delivered, or published by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on January 1, 1994 entitled "Hermeneutics for Preaching: Approaches to Contemporary Interpretations of Scripture", on the book Hermeneutics for Preaching: Approaches to Contemporary Interpretations of Scripture, written by by Raymond Bailey, editor , it appeared in The Princeton Seminary Bulletin, Vol. XV, No. 2, 1994 pp. 230-231. Tags: Preaching, Hermeneutics. Scripture references: Bailey, ed., Hermeneuticals for Preaching, 1992. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Hermeneutics Preaching https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f13c203c8ab368167affdf89cc3e622e.pdf 1ff1aca48475a49a4c18d189df6ac7cb PDF Text Text In Memoriam: The Reverend Dr. Arie R. Brouwer, 1935-1993 Article by Richard A. Rhem Minister of Preaching and Theological Inquiry Christ Community Church Spring Lake, Michigan Published in Perspectives A Journal of Reformed Thought December 1993, pp. 7-8 Dr. Arie Brouwer died at his home in Teaneck, New Jersey, on October 7, 1993. Arie had served in pastorates in the Reformed Church in America before moving to executive positions in the RCA denominational structure from 1968 to 1983, holding the top leadership position, General Secretary, from 1977 until he moved to Geneva, Switzerland, to serve the World Council of Churches as deputy general secretary in 1983-1984. He returned to this country to assume the position of general secretary of the National Council of Churches, which he held from 1985 to 1989. Arie had been asked to reorganize a failing, faltering National Council of Churches. Yet, as is often the case, the call for reform encountered strong opposition from entrenched power blocs with vested interests in maintaining an inviable status quo. In a speech before the governing board of the NCC, Arie dared to “speak truth to power,” setting forth his vision for the council's future through the restructuring he had been mandated to effect. With the governing board deadlocked and movement toward reconfiguration at an impasse, Arie resigned his position. Arie was sad at this turn of events but never doubted that he had done what he was charged to do—and, failing to effect the necessary reforms, he would not have been content simply to manage an institution in a maintenance mode, for the ecumenical vision of the Church of Christ was the passion of his life. That same passion plunged him into a new effort for justice and peace. Recognizing the critical nature of the Middle East conflict, Arie established Middle East Peacemakers. His hope was to lift the issues that divided Jew and Muslim, Israel and Palestine and the Arab states, in order to build bridges of reasoned discourse and understanding. © Grand Valley State University   �In Memoriam: Rev. Dr. Arie R. Brouwer Richard A. Rhem Page 2   And then in December of 1992, Arie was diagnosed with a serious cancer. During the struggle against the disease that finally took his life, he wrote several journal pieces that he shared with a circle of friends and that will soon be published by the World Council of Churches. In one entry he was asked what his faith meant to him in the midst of his illness. He responded: Long ago Horace Bushnell argued that children growing up in the church should never know themselves to be “other than a child of God.” That has been my experience. I recall it now in the hymns I especially treasured at various stages of my life, “Jesus Loves Me,” “What a Friend We Have in Jesus,” “God of the Prophets,” and “God of Grace and God of Glory.” From love through service to justice and hope, my whole life has been a love affair with God. I do not intend to give that up just because I have cancer. My last visit with my friend Arie Brouwer was on July 8 of this year in company with another mutual friend of college and seminary days, Dr. John Richard deWitt. For us all it was a sacred time as we reminisced and reflected together on the diverse ways of our pilgrimages. At one point I suggested that while our ways had become diverse over the years, we yet shared something very deep for we knew that we would each face our final moments in the same way, trusting the good and gracious God. There was a nod of agreement among us, acknowledgment of that deep trust that undergirded us all. It was a difficult parting. I was so poignantly aware of the wealth of experience, insight, wisdom, and gifts of leadership possessed by my friend, now a ghost of himself. He had so much to give to the church in these days of faltering structures—and to the world with whose presidents and prime ministers he had conversed. Three weeks before his death the event of the accord between Israel and the Palestinians energized him with hope and with a sense of what was now necessary in order to effect a lasting peace. Death came with a good deal of suffering, but finally as the strains of Handel's “Hallelujah Chorus” came to a close, Arie Brouwer bade good-by to his beloved wife, Harriet, and his daughter, Pat. He closed his eyes and moved from life through death into the presence of the Lord of life. Arie Brouwer has left us with a model of one who was a faithful servant of Jesus Christ, a fearless leader and spokesperson for truth and justice, a believer whose hope was undiminished in the face of death. His legacy is ours to examine and to act upon. We have lost a significant leader, but the years and fruit of that leadership will not be lost. © Grand Valley State University � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RA-4-19931201 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1993-12-01 Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Title A name given to the resource In Memoriam: The Reverend Dr. Arie R. Brouwer, 1935-1993 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Perspectives: A Journal of Reformed Thought Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource eng Description An account of the resource Article created, delivered, or published by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on December 1, 1993 entitled "In Memoriam: The Reverend Dr. Arie R. Brouwer, 1935-1993", it appeared in Perspectives, pp. 6-7. Tags: Ecumenical, Interfaith, Hope. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Ecumenical Hope Interfaith https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/85aba223d3b2f92a6e7e791a8c2dd8d4.pdf 659494314d17a742939f4883366da7ef PDF Text Text   God Language: The Deeper Issue Article by Colette Volkema DeNooyer Minister of Faith Development and Richard A. Rhem Minister of Preaching and Theological Inquiry Christ Community Church Spring Lake, Michigan Published in Perspectives A Journal of Reformed Thought March 1993, pp. 18-21 A decade ago, in the early 1980s, Richard Rhem preached a sermon entitled “The Gender of God: The Humanness of Jesus.” The message brought that day pointed to the wonder of the incarnation being not that God had visited us in male flesh but that God had “pitched a tent” in human flesh. Then in 1986, in this journal, Rhem developed that theme further in an article entitled “The Accident of the Incarnation” using accident in its philosophical sense of not belonging to the essence of the matter. Never in the decade of the eighties was there a ripple of consternation from the Christ Community congregation. That the incarnation transcended human gender differentiation seemed apparent to all. That God was not choosing maleness over against femaleness in this revelatory act appeared to stand uncontested. Then in the Epiphany season of 1992, we determined as a ministry team that the community’s commonly held biblical-theological understanding should find bolder and more obvious expression in both our worship experience and our liturgical forms. We had been sensitive to sexist language—using masculine pronouns less and less in prayers, sermons, and hymnody, publishing in bulletins our intention to be an inclusive community. But on a fateful Sunday morning in January we proposed that the community join us in addressing God as “Our Mother/Father who art in heaven...” The reaction from a vocal few was immediate and sharp. We had touched a nerve and discovered that many had not truly understood the implications of our earlier theological conclusions. We had been naive. A good friend, learning of the rumble we had caused and our dismay, chided us gently for failing to see that a little tinkering with language was © Grand Valley State University   �God Language: The Deeper Issue, Colette Volkema DeNooyer & Richard A. Rhem Page 2   hardly sufficient to get at the larger issue of male domination in the church, reinforced perhaps by sexist language but hardly caused by it. He wrote, True, we need to change our language. But I am not as hopeful as you seem to be about language changes constructing a new social reality. An emergent reality (a true novum) will forge its own language (as has always happened, from the emergence of Christianity to Marxism), but I am not sure, especially in our age when we play fast and loose with words, that a reformation in language will bring a reformulation of social reality. Rescripting the present “paradigm” merely relieves points of potential rupture and allows the old story to continue. He was alerting us to the painful reality that little real change happens until there is a reduction to chaos. He cites Simone Weil who wrote of the necessity of “decreation.” His final shot was a suggestion that we fully engage the issue, for it might just be time for us all “to chaoticize, deconstruct, decreate.” After such a cogent puncturing of our noble project we were forced to plunge more deeply into the relationship of language and social reality. Our friend is quite right; we are dealing with a paradigm shift of major proportion. In Speaking the Christian God, Janet Martin Soskice cites Rosemary Radford Ruether making the point sharply: We cannot simply add the “mothering” to the “fathering” God, while preserving the same hierarchical patterns of male activity and female passivity. To vindicate the “feminine” in this form is merely to make God the sanctioner of patriarchy in a new form. (“The Female Nature of God,” Speaking the Christian God, 66) Soskice adds, Similarly, tinkering with the language of the liturgy, changing “he” to “he and she,” may be a cosmetic change which, from the feminists’ point of view, conceals a more profound and idolatrous teaching to pray to a male God. (Speaking the Christian God, 86) What this foray into language has revealed is the critical challenge that feminist theology throws out to the classical Trinitarian and Christological creedal formulations that came to expression in the philosophical language and conceptuality of the first five centuries of church history. Such an expression was a proper and necessary translation of the life and ministry of Jesus of Nazareth and the experience of the apostolic community, but it was a culturally conditioned translation fully as much as any contemporary theological formulation in the post-modem paradigm (e.g., liberation, black, or feminist theology). © Grand Valley State University �God Language: The Deeper Issue, Colette Volkema DeNooyer & Richard A. Rhem Page 3   Hans Küng contends that, ironically, it was Karl Barth who inaugurated the postmodern paradigm that is so explicitly grounded in human experience (the experience of suffering and oppression). Barth had turned sharply from experience as the ground for knowledge of God. His particular target was Schleiermacher, who grounded faith in God in the “feeling of absolute dependence.” Barth found the Protestant liberalism of the nineteenth century so in tune with European culture that there was no word of judgment or grace to address to the social chaos in the aftermath of the First World War. In his struggle to find a word for preaching, he wrestled with Paul’s “Letter to the Romans.” He found there the God who is “Wholly Other.” His conviction about the deceitfulness of human experience was confirmed when he witnessed his esteemed professors of theology sign on with Hitler’s National Socialism, the movement that led to the Second World War and the horrors of the Holocaust. His whole great theological project was posited on the conviction that only God reveals God; knowledge of God is the gift of God effected by the miracle of the Holy Spirit. Against Brunner he denied that there is anything in the human person that provides a “point of contact” for divine revelation. Such a radical position drew criticism. Bonhoeffer spoke of Barth’s theology as a “house without doors.” There was no way to get in if one were not already in. Bonhoeffer called it “Revelational Positivism.” Paradoxically, from the perspective of the present it is evident that Barth’s theology did not arise apart from his own personal, existential experience; it was precisely in reaction to that experience that his theology took shape! After Barth turned the tide of European theology in the first half of this century, the pendulum began to swing back to the pole of experience. In the revision of his Christian Faith (1985), Hendrikus Berkhof added one entirely new section— paragraph ten—entitled “Revelation and Experience.” The place of experience also played a considerable role in his Introduction to the Study of Dogmatics (1982). He points to some theologians through the centuries who have a special gift for sensing shifts taking place in a given culture and in human perception— people like Augustine, Luther, Wesley, Barth, and Küng, who experience existence very differently from previous generations. In such instances new experience calls forth a new language of faith. In former times such prophetic voices have been labeled heretical. But today there is a growing recognition and acceptance of a plurality of faith formulations. For, as Berkhof writes, “someone may be so driven by a series of experiences that his personal faith and theology affect the very nerve of the tradition of faith.” He speaks of “ahead-of-the-pack” thinking arising in recent decades from unexpected sources: The unheard-of phenomenon of groups of believers, previously not at all part of the dogmatic process, who began to intervene in it. Pacesetting dogmaticians ... giving expression to the faith in a way that was hardly recognizable to those who had learned to read the Bible from the perspective of a very different set of experiences… In their best works they © Grand Valley State University �God Language: The Deeper Issue, Colette Volkema DeNooyer & Richard A. Rhem Page 4   give evidence of new discoveries made in Scripture. To the “official” practitioners of dogmatics they pose the question of what unconscious conditioning factors have had their distorting or inspiring effect on them. (26) We have come to recognize that it is not enough to refer to Scripture, the creedal tradition, and the transconfessional dimensions of ecumenicity “as the funding sources of dogmatics.” This becomes evident when these are held in common, yet opposite experiences may make our respective interpretations of the gospel mutually unintelligible. This is, of course, the flash point of contemporary controversy. Berkhof raises the question, “[I]s it our duty radically to exclude the factor of our life experiences?” But he then further asks, “Who can jump over his own shadow?” Of course we cannot. The call for contextual theology has simply made us aware of our own contextuality—the fact that no theology arises out of a cultural vacuum devoid of experience. In reference to the claims of Third World theologians and First World feminist theologians for whom experience is the key to theological understanding, Berkhof contends, We cannot cancel out their bewilderment by proclaiming: “Not what we say is important but what the Scripture says” or the question is, “Who is Christ himself?” All our central words such as “salvation,” “Christ,” “Church,” and “Scripture,” have a much more contextual shape and focus than we are aware of. (71-72) Rosemary Radford Ruether in her seminal work, Sexism and God-Talk (1983), asserts: What have been called the objective sources of theology; scripture and tradition are themselves codified collective human experience. She further declares: Human experience is the starting point and the ending point of the hermeneutical circle. Codified tradition both reaches back to roots in experience and is constantly renewed or discarded through the test of experience. “Experience” includes experience of the divine, experience of oneself, and experience of the community and the world, in an interacting dialectic. Received symbols, formulas, and laws are either authenticated or not through their ability to illuminate and interpret experience. Systems of authority try to reverse this relation and make received symbols dictate what can be experienced as well as the interpretation of that which is experienced. In reality, the relation is the opposite. If a symbol does not © Grand Valley State University �God Language: The Deeper Issue, Colette Volkema DeNooyer & Richard A. Rhem Page 5   speak authentically to experience, it becomes dead or must be altered to provide a new meaning. (12-13) What the feminists have uncovered is the sociology of theological knowledge putting the lie to the claim that its ground is an objective, divine, and universal authority apart from human experience. Here, of course, we arrive at a watershed of understanding. With our present knowledge of the development of dogma, our knowledge of that process in the early centuries of creedal formulation with the intervention of emperors and the political motivation of popes and patriarchs, one can hardly deny an historically conditioned understanding of all theological formulation. In Theology for the Third Millennium, Hans Küng reminds us that new prophetic traditions are not born in a cultural vacuum. New paradigms, while incorporating the truth of the old paradigm, break through with new revelatory insight. Then at some point in the process this new insight comes under the control of leaders who institutionalize the inaugurating vision. A series of criteria are imposed to determine the correct interpretive line, and soon the new paradigm begins to ossify. If, however, present experience is sidelined or denied a place in the continued development of theological understanding, those for whom the symbols no longer illumine their experience of being human may well drop out, abandoning the faith of their foremothers and forefathers. Janet Soskice asks, “Does the ‘father God’ have a future?” She answers: If Christianity has a future, then the answer is probably “yes.” But it would be reasonable for a dispassionate student of religions to wonder whether Christianity will survive the rapid changes taking place—around the world, not just in the privileged West—in women’s self-understanding. In my opinion, Christianity now faces a serious challenge, and one that addresses core metaphors, narratives, and ideologies. ... It may be that Christianity will not meet the challenge or will linger on as a pleasing anachronism distant from the life of the cultures it inhabits. You may well think we are watching yet another stage in the death throes of a dinosaur. (Speaking the Christian God, 94) Christian faith need not die unless we cling to symbols and forms that no longer mediate the truth in compelling fashion, idolizing the medium and confusing it for the message itself. In his journal, Morning Light, Jean Sulivan writes, Your certitudes—are you so blind? What are they generally based on? The failure to deepen your knowledge. We rush past questions in order to avoid anxiety.... Some weep for the certitudes of the past. We must preserve, they say, this or that which was beautiful and good. Perhaps that’s true, but those who © Grand Valley State University �God Language: The Deeper Issue, Colette Volkema DeNooyer & Richard A. Rhem Page 6   complain like that are weeping for themselves. In the last analysis, we shouldn’t weep but create. Gothic churches were built over Romanesque structures, which were built over pagan fountains and temples. To create is the only important thing, to rediscover the fervor that produced the thing you’re weeping for. (123-24) The legitimate place of experience in theological formulations given voice by Küng, Berkhof, Ruether, and Sulivan among others seems to us beyond refute. But refuted it is. An example is Speaking the Christian God, subtitle: “The Holy Trinity and the Challenge of Feminism,” eighteen essays addressing the question of the use of Father as a designation for God. Covering the spectrum from moderate to strident, the necessity of the Father designation is defended as the sine qua non of classical, Western, Trinitarian theology, indeed of Christian faith. This is an excellent collection of essays for identifying that the stakes in the feminist challenge run deeper than a superficial adjustment of pronouns. What is maintained almost uniformly throughout from various perspectives—language theory, worship, as well as creedal formulation—is that feminist claims must be denied because they undercut cherished creedal paradigms as well as a traditional orthodox reading of Scripture. Without the slightest apology or concession for possible human fallibility, the opinions of Church Fathers and early Christian councils are cited as pronouncements of eternal and divine truth. Present experience of ecumenical councils, popes, bishops and church leaders would seem to alert us to the ever-present political and personal agendas that dog very human leaders. Our contemporary understanding of parliamentary procedures and authorized committee reports should caution us that as Ernest Campbell has noted, “There was a lot of good stuff left on the cutting room floor!” Many of the writers in Speaking the Christian God seem to forget that the distance of centuries removes us from the passionate conviction of the opposition’s arguments as well as votes that at times were almost too close to call. That is precisely the claim of Reuther. And her exegetical work is impressive. It is remarkable that the appeal for preserving the Father designation in Christian usage in Speaking the Christian God is replete with references to the writings of the Church Fathers and the ecumenical councils but wrestles little with biblical material. The defenders of the classic creedal formulations have not gone back far enough! In absolutizing the formulations of the post-apostolic period when the gospel moved out into a Hellenistic world, the writers in Speaking the Christian God attribute an authority to those formulations that failed to recognize that these were already translations of the revelatory events. These formulations pulsated with passionate human experience in a cultural context that supplied the linguistic and philosophical tools by which to bring that experience to expression. But the experience of the post-apostolic age is hardly ours, and the language and philosophical conceptuality are alien to us on the threshold of the third millennium. © Grand Valley State University �God Language: The Deeper Issue, Colette Volkema DeNooyer & Richard A. Rhem Page 7   Stephen M. Smith in “Worldview, Language, and Radical Feminism: An Evangelical Appraisal,” (one of the essays in Speaking the Christian God) writes that we live in a time of massive cultural conflict. This conflict, he says, “is in reality a clash of worldviews.” Right! And is it not about time? There was no significant threat to the philosophical worldview within which the classic creedal formulation came to expression until the eighteenth century. But consider what has happened since. Not only have there been revolutionary breakthroughs in our understanding of the physical universe, but even more significant for our present focus, the rise of historical thinking has illumined the process of development of human understanding. Could it be that the classic paradigms, once the Spirit’s medium for the revealing of the living God, must be dismantled to make room for a new paradigm that takes up the truth of the old but makes space for the emergence of the new? One theologian who is seeking to bring to expression a new understanding of God in light of contemporary experience is Sallie McFague. She receives sharp criticism from Smith for holding a monist world view, which she acknowledges, but in the sense of panentheism, which The Oxford Dictionary of the Christum Church defines as “the belief that the Being of God includes and penetrates the whole universe, so that every part of it exists in him, but (as against pantheism) that his Being is more than, and is not exhausted by, the universe.” The issue must not be whether McFague challenges and undercuts the orthodox world view, but whether or not her models of God are able to illumine more adequately our present human experience as she wrestles with the biblical story and the revelation that was en-fleshed in Jesus. In her probings, McFague is engaged in the very process that is the responsibility of every serious theologian—testing the received tradition and bringing it to fresh expression. Otherwise dogmatics becomes fundamentalist, the mere reiteration of formulations that illumined yesterday’s experiences, and that is idolatry. A much more sympathetic reading of McFague comes from James Fowler who writes, She ... makes clear that we require new metaphors if our faith is to enable us to make sense of our contemporary experiences.... In our religious language we are naming ourselves, one another, our world, and our relatedness to God in terms from bygone times. Such anachronistic names, helpful in earlier times, are distorting and hurtful now. (Weaving the New Creation, 61) Brian Wren, a minister in the Reformed Church of England is well known as a writer of meaningful contemporary hymnody. In his book What Language Shall I Borrow? he addresses the concerns and issues that motivated him to write such hymns as “Bring Many Names,” in which he expands our language horizons by referring to God as: © Grand Valley State University �God Language: The Deeper Issue, Colette Volkema DeNooyer & Richard A. Rhem Page 8   Strong mother God, working night and day, Planning all the wonders of creation... Warm father God, hugging every child, feeling all the strains of human living... Old aching God, grey with endless care, calmly piercing evil’s new disguises... Young, growing God, eager, on the move, seeing all, and fretting at our blindness ... Great, living God, never fully known, joyful darkness far beyond our seeing ... The poem that opens What Language Shall I Borrow? a poem written by Wren, sums up his understanding that language can be one step in the process of freeing ourselves from idolatrous attachment to earlier faith expressions. The Main Question If every naming of God is a borrowing from human experience, And if language slants and angles our thinking and behavior; And if our society makes qualities labeled “feminine” inferior to qualities labeled “masculine,” forming women and men with identities steeped in those labelings, in structures where men are still dominant though shaken and women still subordinate though seeking emancipation... Then it follows that using only male language (“he,” “king,” “father”) to name and praise God powerfully affects our encounter with God and our thinking and behavior; So that we must then ask © Grand Valley State University �God Language: The Deeper Issue, Colette Volkema DeNooyer & Richard A. Rhem Page 9   whether male dominance and female subordination and seeking God only in male terms are God’s intention or human distortion and sin; For if these things are indeed a deep distortion and sin, So that women and men are called to repent together from domination and subordination, Then how can we name and praise God in ways less idolatrous, more freeing, and more true to the Triune God and the direction of love in the Anointed One, Jesus? His prolific production of hymns for worship is his answer to “The Main Question.” And that brings us back to where we began. The letter from our friend is full of profound insight—a little cosmetic tinkering with the language of worship is not enough. We have to do with a far more profound issue, indeed, with the necessity of a whole new paradigm for our speaking of God. And that will probably come about only through chaos and decreation. But in the meantime it is not unimportant to watch our language as a sign that the Christian community is honestly listening for the ways in which God may be coming to us through the voices of experience. References: Henrikus Berkhof. Introduction to the Study of Dogmatics. Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co., 1985. Rosemary Radford Ruether. Sexism and God-Talk: Toward a Feminist Theology. Beacon Press, 0010 Anniversary edition, 1993. Janet Martin Soskice, “The Female Nature of God” in Speaking the Christian God: Holy Trinity and the Challenge of Feminism. (Editor Alvin F. Kimel). William B. Eerdmans Pub. Co., first edition, 1992. Brian Wren. What Language Shall I Borrow?: God-Talk in Worship: A Male Response to Feminist Theology. First published 1989; Wipf & Stock Pub., 2009. © Grand Valley State University � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. References Hendrikus Berkhof, Introduction to the Study of Dogmatics, 1989, Rosemary R. Ruether, Sexism and God-Talk, 1993, Janet M. Soskice in Speaking the Christian God, 1992, Brian Wren, What Language Shall I Borrow?, 2009 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RA-4-19930301 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1993-03-01 Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Title A name given to the resource God Language: The Deeper Issue Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Perspectives: A Journal of Reformed Thought Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Colette Volkema DeNooyer & Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource eng Description An account of the resource Article created, delivered, or published by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on March 1, 1993 entitled "God Language: The Deeper Issue", it appeared in Perspectives, pp. 18-21. Tags: Nature of God, Creeds, Historical Thinking, Metaphors for God, Nature of Religious Development, Theological Paradigms. Scripture references: Hendrikus Berkhof, Introduction to the Study of Dogmatics, 1989, Rosemary R. Ruether, Sexism and God-Talk, 1993, Janet M. Soskice in Speaking the Christian God, 1992, Brian Wren, What Language Shall I Borrow?, 2009. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Creeds Historical Thinking Metaphors for God Nature of God Nature of Religious Development Theological Paradigms https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bd409e4b0ac831607e1014339fba5651.pdf 3aa0fa32066e21470ff6490fadc3df92 PDF Text Text The Book That Binds Us Article by Richard A. Rhem Minister of Preaching and Theological Inquiry Christ Community Church Spring Lake, Michigan Published in Perspectives A Journal of Reformed Thought December 1992, pp. 12-17 The Bible is the book that binds conservative Reformed orthodoxy, binds not in the sense of holding us together but, rather, in the sense of shackling us, immobilizing us as we attempt to address the Word of God—the Word of judgment and grace—to our contemporary situation, to present human experience. The 1992 Synod of the Christian Reformed Church, in its anguishing debate and failure to move forward on the question of women in office, is only the most recent instance of our inability to bring the scriptural witness into fruitful dialogue with present human experience and the knowledge and insight available to us from the various disciplines of human research. The Bible is being misused. It is being asked to function in a way it can no longer be expected to function, a way it was never intended to function. Until there is a radical revisioning of our understanding of the place of Scripture in shaping our faith and forming our practice, the church will be deadlocked, at an impasse, firing salvos of accusation and recrimination from opposing camps while the body bleeds and languishes. It is painful to read the account of the Christian Reformed drama as it has taken shape over the past two years since the Synod of 1990. A similar drama was played out in the past in the Reformed Church in America, which now has opened its offices to women but continues to be a house divided, living in a coexistence filled with dis-ease. Advocates of both positions in the Christian Reformed Church cite Scripture and claim to be faithful to its authority. But a great gulf separates the two sides, and it is difficult to imagine them reaching agreement. Cultural…climate of opinion does work its ferment on the staunchest of orthodoxies, and time is on the side of those who seek to open the offices to women. That will come. But the Christian Reformed Church will be much like the RCA at present—of two minds on the issue. The church will live with a pragmatic © Grand Valley State University   �The Book That Binds Us Richard A. Rhem Page 2   accommodation but without a unified, joyful vision of truth, of justice, energized by fresh insight and understanding. In this journal April 1991,I wrote, In theology old paradigms keep their adherents even when theological development has left them behind. But they can do so only by some form of authoritarian claim. In the case of Reformed orthodoxy, the authoritarian claim of the Bible has held theological movement hostage, hindering meaningful dialogue with the sciences and philosophy. We are theologically stuck, and we will not become unstuck until we learn to value Scripture as authority, but break loose from its authoritarian use. In that same article I referred to a statement of Hendrikus Berkhof in his Two Hundred Years of Theology that Herman Bavinck turned away from dogmatic theology in his later years, sensing that the modern period needed a much more vigorous renewal of theology than he was able to produce. And I raised the question whether he might not have recognized that his own objective principle of knowledge—the Scriptures—blocked him from fruitful engagement with the rapidly expanding horizons of knowledge in the modern period. I stated again that the orthodox Reformed view of Scripture and its hermeneutic make it impossible either to engage the cultural assumptions that are the legacy of the Enlightenment or to be in dialogue with the probings of the present, postmodern period. The current dilemma of the Christian Reformed Church confirms my contention. The question of women's ordination cannot be solved by appeal to Scripture alone. What must be recognized is that the Bible is not a book of propositional truths, timeless and eternal, covering the full spectrum of cosmic reality, to be applied objectively to questions of faith and practice. Rather, it must always be heard as a cumulative witness of those encountered by the God of Creation who came in judgment and grace to Israel and in the humanity of Jesus. The canon of Scripture includes that witness spanning centuries, but the canon has been closed for subsequent centuries to the present while the human story has continued on with dramatic development and amazing breakthroughs in the understanding of the cosmos, of historical development, and of the human person. In the present debate in the Christian Reformed Church we can see the failure on both sides to acknowledge the legitimate place of contemporary experience in the discussion of women's ordination. Each side is claiming biblical authority for its position. Obviously, something is wrong, and what is wrong is the view, shared by the opposing sides, of how the Bible functions in such a discussion in relation to present experience. It is my contention that the failure to engage contemporary experience stems from a failure to recognize the function of a living tradition of faith. © Grand Valley State University �The Book That Binds Us Richard A. Rhem Page 3   Let me say clearly, I stand unreservedly with those who advocate opening all ecclesiastical offices to women. They can mount a biblical case for their position. But their opponents can mount an equally strong argument against women's ordination if it is assumed that the Bible must provide the answer for or against that ordination. It is clear that what is at issue is not women as women in office, their giftedness, leadership capacity, or spirituality. The issue is the Bible, how it functions in the life of the church, where its authority lies. Until the church wrestles with the authority of Scripture in determining the shape of its faith and the form of its practice, it will not be able to make progress on any theological front or come to consensus on any doctrinal debate. The apparent issue being debated will never be the real issue; lying behind it will always lurk the question, “But what does this do to the authority of the Bible?” In Reformed orthodoxy, the Bible carries not only authority; it is used with authoritarian coerciveness and uncritical literalness that brings every new discussion to an impasse whether the question be the ordination of women, the status of homosexual or lesbian persons, of creation versus evolution, of ethical issues such as abortion, genetic engineering, or euthanasia. In Bondage to the Bible The Bible is the book that binds us. In our academic, theological institutions we acknowledge that the Bible is not a scientific text, not a chronicle of history in the modern sense of historiography, that it comes to expression through human persons with all the limitations that entails. But we have never been honest with the church about the implications of our recognition of the nature of the Bible. Somehow the critical study of Scripture, the results of two hundred years of intensive study of its formation and its contents, has never trickled down to the people. We have continued living in the paradigm of Protestant orthodoxy deriving from the Protestant scholasticism of the seventeenth century. By that time both the Roman Catholic and Protestant Churches had battened down the hatches and set themselves against the emergence of Renaissance humanism, which came to full flower in the Enlightenment of the eighteenth century. Rightfully, the church resisted the drive for human autonomy and the enthronement of human reason, but it fought fire with fire; the theological enterprise took on a strongly rationalistic character and attempted in intellectual formulation to ground certainty, buttressed by an authoritarian church (Roman Catholic) or an authoritarian Scripture (Protestant). The historical-critical study of Scripture created a crisis for the churches of the Reformation, and a battle ensued that our churches have yet to settle. It is incredible, in light of what is widely recognized about the nature of the © Grand Valley State University �The Book That Binds Us Richard A. Rhem Page 4   Scriptures, that there should be such a prevalence of literalism in our understanding of the Bible. In his Dynamics of Faith, Tillich distinguishes two stages of literalism. The first is the “natural stage” before making a clear distinction between the symbolic and the factual; it consists “in the inability to separate the creations of symbolic imagination from the facts which can be verified through observation and experiment.” This represents the first naiveté, and such literalism creates no problem for the mediation of meaning. But when the symbol system is broken or seriously undercut in the continuing growth of knowledge and understanding, to continue to assert literal correspondence between symbol and fact is to fall into a “reactive literalism.” Literalism in this second stage is “aware of the questions but represses them, half consciously, half unconsciously.” This path is chosen by “people who prefer the repression of their questions to the uncertainty which appears with the breaking of the myth.” Reactive literalism cramps the figurative language of the Bible into the narrow framework of interpretation appropriate only to the literal usage of modern science. The desire is for certainty, but not, as Barth says, the certainty of faith that is given and given again, but the certainty of human control. Identifying the Bible with revelation, elevating the doctrine of inspiration so that the written word is inerrant and the truth infallible represents a “lust for certitude.” That phrase comes from Charles Davis. In his Temptations of Religion he discusses the social construction of all human knowledge, which excludes the possibility of “a revelation insofar as that implies an a priori claim to absoluteness and universality.” He contends, Revelation in that sense is given as an absolute in the order of knowledge; it is regarded as a set of unquestionable data, from which all opinions may be evaluated. It represents an attempt to limit criticism, to put a stop to the endless questioning of human thinking by establishing an a-critical point, a point not subject to criticism because beyond criticism. (18) To reject revelation in that sense is not, he claims, to exclude God's manifestation in our midst in word and event. It is, however, to exclude an a priori absoluteness and universality as violating human intelligence and freedom. Davis quotes Peter Berger: The theologian is consequently deprived of the psychologically liberating possibility of either radical commitment or radical negation. What he is left with, I think, is the necessity for a step-by-step re-evaluation of the traditional affirmations in terms of his own cognitive criteria (which need not necessarily be those of a putative “modern consciousness”). Is this or that in the tradition true? Or is it false? I don't think that there are shortcut answers to such questions, neither by means of “leaps of faith” nor by the methods of any secular discipline. (The Sacred Canopy, 187) © Grand Valley State University �The Book That Binds Us Richard A. Rhem Page 5   Davis recognizes how fearful such a recognition of the social construction of our reality is. To become conscious of the extent to which our “knowledge” and “values” are social fictions is “to look into the abyss, the void, surrounding human life in every direction.” Such honest recognition is very rare in the church; rather, theologians and preachers reinforce reactive literalism, feeding the lust for certitude. But should there not be an honest facing of what is widely recognized in our postmodern world—that human knowledge is socially constructed and symbolically expressed? When we do so, we are faced with an alternative. According to Davis, We can respond to the nothingness by a nihilism that interprets it as chaos, as meaninglessness, as the ultimate absurdity making everything absurd. Or we can respond to the void as positive nothingness, as mystery. That is the religious response. Faith in the last analysis is a basic trust in reality, an openness to mystery, a being drawn toward the abyss in selfforgetfulness and awe and love. Faith acknowledges the relativities of finite human existence without the nihilistic denial that these do, however gropingly, lead us toward absolute meaning and value. (21) The Bipolar Reality of Scripture And Present Experience The Bible contains the words of those in Israel and in the event of Jesus Christ who were encountered by God in judgment and grace, who witnessed to the Word of gracious salvation more or less adequately in their stammering words and historically conditioned understanding. But God is not dead. God still encounters us. God's Spirit still illumines the human understanding, not only in reference to the biblical witness but in the larger landscape of human experience. In the ongoing life of the church we must take seriously not only the Bible but also authentic contemporary experiences of being human in this world. We are people rooted in history, creatures of the cosmos, whose secrets scientists are probing, bringing to light fascinating findings. What of our knowledge of history and the awesome development of human knowledge in the respective disciplines of science? Because it lies outside the Bible's primary focus and purpose, is it therefore of no account in shaping our faith and forming our practice? Is it reasonable to assume that we can engage critical questions of ultimate human concern and determine crucial action and behavior as a human family living together on Spaceship Earth by reference alone to the Bible? It is precisely the theologian's task to coordinate the bipolar reality of Scripture and present human experience. Theology performs a hermeneutical function; its task is to interpret the biblical tradition in the present context of the church's life—an ongoing process that is never finished, always provisional, necessarily open-ended. All interpretation is a mediation of past and present within the history of a faith tradition. And the present is a moving target. Breaking the Impasse: Scripture and Tradition © Grand Valley State University �The Book That Binds Us Richard A. Rhem Page 6   How can the church move forward with theological discussion that will illumine contemporary human experience and shape the faith and practice of God's people in the image of Jesus Christ? What connects the canonical biblical witness to the present? What forms the bridge between the revelatory events in Israel's history and in Jesus Christ—to which the biblical story witnesses—and our present experience of being human in this world? We need a new understanding of the place of the living tradition of faith as lived out in the community of faith. We must recognize the elements at play here: the revelatory events, the witness to those events in the biblical canon, the church as the community constituted by that witness and the place of ongoing witness, and the whole spectrum of human knowledge and cumulative historical experience that continues to grow and develop. As I engage anxious folk in our churches who fear faith is being diluted and biblical Christianity is being jeopardized, I get the impression they assume that there was a time of pristine revelation infallibly recorded in the writings of the New Testament and that apostolic truth was rather quickly overlaid with church tradition that distorted that truth. Then, it is claimed, in the Reformation of the sixteenth century, the apostolic Christian faith was recovered and brought to expression in its original clarity in the creeds and confessions of the church, reformed according to the Word of God. That is a delusion, a colossal distortion of the way of the gospel in the church over nearly two thousand years. Yet it is still cavalierly asserted for popular consumption. A more accurate portrayal of the situation must recognize the interpretation of the revelatory events in Israel and in Jesus Christ by the witnesses to those revelatory events; that interpretation was instrumental in constituting a faith community. That faith community (Israel and the church) was formed out of the witness to revelation and, in its ongoing life, that community reinterpreted its understanding of the original revelatory events and continued to translate its faith understanding in ever new historical circumstances. We can trace the process already in the canonical Scriptures. For example, Israel's faith is reinterpreted by the prophetic word in terms of Israel's ongoing historical experience. Development can also be seen within the New Testament in Christological understanding. The primitive Christology of Acts is not at all the full-blown incarnational Christology of the fourth gospel. With the setting of the limits of the canon, such reinterpretation and development did not cease. We distinguish the biblical witness from the postcanonical tradition, but it was a historical decision of the church that determined the breakpoint. And the lines are blurred. Common agreement as to the canonical books was not reached until around a.d. 400. © Grand Valley State University �The Book That Binds Us Richard A. Rhem Page 7   The problem of the canon reopened at the time of the Reformation. The Protestant churches excluded the Apocrypha, a whole series of Old Testament writings that had been recognized as canonical for over a thousand years. Luther, in his September Bible of 1552, openly separated Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation from the other New Testament writings, thereby constituting a dual canon. Erasmus questioned the authenticity and authority of Hebrews, James, Jude, and 2 and 3 John. Zwingli thought Revelation should be rejected, and Calvin's expositions cover every book except Revelation. In the introduction to his commentaries it is clear, according to Barth, that he had doubts not only about the books mentioned by Luther, but also concerning 2 Peter and 2 and 3 John. The history of the canon indicates a shifting and a questioning that denies the possibility of a claim of absolute certainty regarding its limits. But even within the present Protestant canon we can see the process of translation and reinterpretation of the faith traditions, as stated above, and that process has never ceased. The preaching of the church is the bridgehead where the biblical text comes to contemporary expression. The heart of the preaching task is the hermeneutical moment when the words of the text that witness to the Word that once sounded find fresh expression in the hope that through the preacher's stammering words the Word might again be heard—that the living God might speak here and now. Every historical formulation is provisional; to absolutize an interpretation at any point on the historical continuum is idolatry. The historically conditioned interpretations of the Christian faith through the centuries vary in the degree to which they express a faithful interpretation of the originating revelatory events in Israel and in Jesus Christ, in the degree to which the original revelatory luminousness shines through. Sometimes there is clarity, sometimes distortion. There is action and reaction; the pendulum swings. In the nineteenth century the climate of opinion dominated by Newtonian physics and historicism smothered the witness to the newness and freedom of God's engagement with our world. Against a truncated, liberal faith expression, Barth boldly proclaimed the “Wholly Other,” the God who shatters “our little systems.” In the wake of the renewal of the church and the rediscovery of God's liberating grace in the sixteenth century, Reformed orthodoxy fell into the sterility and rigidity of Scholasticism. It absolutized its interpretation of the faith as though it were a statement of timeless and eternal truth unalloyed with the cultural assumptions of its day. Reformed orthodoxy failed to recognize that this interpretation was forged out of the crisis created by the ascendancy of rationalism as the Enlightenment was coming to flower, and so it declared the autonomy of the human person and human reason as the measure of truth. © Grand Valley State University �The Book That Binds Us Richard A. Rhem Page 8   What we must recognize is the constant interplay of the biblical witness and contemporary interpretation and the fact that we are part of a faith community that is living out of and carrying forward a living faith tradition. We have an anchor in the past; the church has demarcated certain writings as canonical. Present interpretation of the Christian faith and shaping of Christian practice will always involve serious listening to the biblical witness. But the present determination of faith and practice will not treat the intervening centuries between biblical times and our own as a vacuum. The history of the transmission of the faith will also be mined for wisdom, insight, and guidance. But neither do we live in a vacuum. Our contemporary expression of the faith and the shaping of our practice will finally have to be our truth. Finally, our witness and life must be authentically our own, our voice bringing to expression the living tradition. Jaroslav Pelikan differentiates that sense of the living tradition from traditionalism. Tradition, he says, is the living faith of the dead; traditionalism is the dead faith of the living. If we would move forward in our understanding of all reality before the face of God, we must come to a new appreciation of the living tradition of biblical faith as a dynamic movement. Hendrikus Berkhof acknowledges that as a rule Protestant dogmatics has no separate chapter on tradition. But this disregard of the concept of tradition cannot be maintained, he argues. In Christian Faith he writes, Revelation means that God enters the field of history to bring about an encounter with men which transcends human history, and which therefore goes far beyond the temporal spatial bounds of the original field of revelation. The encounters which took place at that time were means and suited for leading to further encounter in other times and places. Hence the revelation of Christ in the New Testament, in spite of, or rather because of its definitive nature, is not the end but calls forth as its sequel the coming and the work of the Spirit. The Spirit proceeds from Christ to continue and interpret his saving work world-wide. This coming of the Spirit is a new redemptive act, of the same importance as the coming of Christ of which he is the complement and counterpart. It is one continuous revelational event. Fixation without interpretive transmission petrifies the faith…. Berkhof contends that if the concern of revelation is the continuing encounter between God and humankind, then tradition is theologically of the same importance as Scripture. The redemptive work of God must be “handed over,” faithful to the fixated form (Scripture) but verbalized such that it becomes intelligible in other times and places. © Grand Valley State University �The Book That Binds Us Richard A. Rhem Page 9   The current impasse in the conservative Reformed churches is the result of fixation with the biblical writings and a failure born of fear to find fresh expression for contemporary faith. Sola Scriptura. That was the clarion call, the battle cry of the reformers. Faith will be shaped, practice formed by reference to Scripture alone. The claim can be easily understood given the historical context, and the return to Scripture as the authoritative witness to revelation proved fruitful in the life of the church. But there was a loss as well: it was the sense of tradition as the living, ongoing, mediating, and interpreting expression of biblical faith as it is confessed and lived in the community of faith, the church. Tradition. In Fiddler on the Roof Tevye booms out the word claiming that life is as precarious as a fiddler making music on a perilously steep roof and that balance is maintained by tradition. According supremacy to tradition over Scripture in the Roman Catholic Church allowed it to drift from testing its faith and practice by the Word of God and to lose the clear sound of the gospel. Tradition and Scripture were a dual source of authority, but tradition had the ascendancy. The recovery of the authority of Scripture to exercise its critical function was a great contribution of the Reformation. But such movements as the Reformation are reactionary; often there is such a strong reaction to the status quo being attacked that the pendulum swings too far. How does the cumulative, growing experience of humankind become incorporated into faith's vision and practice? The witness of prophets and apostles continues to be heard in the pages of the Bible. But what of the ongoing encounter of God's Spirit with the church as it moves through history confronted by new questions, immersed in circumstances beyond that of the biblical world? It is in the living tradition of the faith community that new experience and fresh discoveries are brought into dialogue with the biblical witness. The tradition, like a fiery river of lava, moves with the current of history, a stream continuous with the erupting volcano, yet ever moving through new landscapes. This function of tradition was brought home sharply to me by the New Testament scholar Krister Stendahl, who joined Rabbi David Hartman in an all-day, JewishChristian dialogue on the theme “Faithful Interpretation.” Stendahl spoke of tradition as an instrument of continuity and change. Continuity was obvious to me; tradition connects backward to the past. But is tradition an instrument of change? Indeed, he argued. By means of the tradition we enter the new and negotiate the future. Stendahl spoke warmly and charmingly of a visit to Swedish relatives in Minnesota. There he experienced life as he remembered it in Sweden when he was a child and visited his grandparents. In Minnesota the Swedish tradition is frozen, as is true in most immigrant ethnic communities. If you want to see a piece of Sweden past, he said, visit Minnesota, for there the tradition has become a museum piece. But Stendahl has recently returned to the United States after © Grand Valley State University �The Book That Binds Us Richard A. Rhem Page10   serving for a time in Stockholm as Bishop of the Swedish Lutheran Church. If you want to experience the living tradition of the Swedish people, you must go to Sweden where the dynamic tradition is continuing to evolve, he pointed out. Stendahl offered a vivid image: a boa constrictor periodically wriggles out of its skin, leaving the skin behind, an empty shell. He pictured a biologist taking the skin, measuring it, analyzing it, and then having it stuffed and mounted—a museum piece. Someone exclaims, “There's a snake!” But, says Stendahl, that's not the snake. The snake has wriggled out and away and is still living—in new skin—still making history. The living tradition of Christian faith is the contemporary reinterpretation of the biblical witness in light of the cumulative historical experience of the church and the growing store of human knowledge. In Words Around the Table, Gail Ramshaw writes, Tradition is not like an obsolete edition of the encyclopedia, full of half facts, and old prejudices. Tradition is not like a 1948 etiquette book that lists the activities and even the fabrics forbidden a widow in deep mourning: All we can do is grimace and ignore it. The tradition of the church lives. We can read medieval books being discussed, we can unearth attitudes that were subsequently buried, we can make tradition different tomorrow than it was yesterday or today. Where “tradition” repeats tired slogans out of context, when “tradition” yells louder and louder to drown out queries, it becomes a sarcophagus that the dying church deserves. But when tradition is the history of the movement of the Spirit, darting here, hiding there, migrating halfway around the world, it can serve as one expression of God's Truth. As much as any contemporary theologian, David Tracy has addressed the question of the faithful interpretation of the Christian tradition to make it accessible to a serious and reasonable public. As I have been contending, he sees systematic theology's task to interpret, mediate, and translate the meaning and truth of the continuing living tradition in dialogue with the biblical witness in light of present human experience. Where this is not the case, the notion of authority shifts from a truth disclosed to mind and heart to an external norm for the obedient will. Then theologians can no longer interpret and translate the tradition but “only repeat the shop-worn conclusions of the tradition.” Eventually, the central, classical symbols and doctrines of the tradition become mere “fundamentals” to be externally accepted and endlessly repeated. (Analogical Imagination, 99) In an earlier work, Blessed Rage for Order, Tracy calls for a revisioning of the Christian tradition. He explains: © Grand Valley State University �The Book That Binds Us Richard A. Rhem Page11   [T]he revisionist theologian is committed to what seems clearly to be the central task of contemporary Christian theology: the dramatic confrontation, the mutual illuminations and corrections, the possible basic reconciliations between the principal values, cognitive claims, and existential faiths of both a reinterpreted post-modern consciousness and a reinterpreted Christianity. (32) The revisionist theologian is not motivated by the desire for relevance, Tracy argues. Rather, The reality of the situation is both more simple and more basic: when all is said and done, one finds that he can authentically abandon neither his faith in the modern experiment, nor his faith in the God of Jesus Christ. (4) The church lives in a creative tension because it lives in a bipolar reality of Bible and present experience, an ancient faith and the undeniable reality of the modern experiment. We need a new understanding of the Bible and a new appreciation of tradition if we would be faithful to the Word and present to our world. In An Essay on the Development of Christian Doctrine, John Henry Newman describes the church, tradition, the cosmos itself after the manner of an organism. Their development is seen as an organic process. This view was in contrast to a fundamentalistic view that regards revelation and tradition as a fixed, unchanging body of truths and rejects all change and pluralism. Newman was able to accommodate ongoing human experience in his organic view of tradition. In What Is Living, What is Dead in Christianity Today? Charles Davis comments on Newman's view: The result was a concept of tradition as cumulative experience, subject therefore to change whether as development or as decline, which distinguished [him] as conservative, from reactionaries, who did not acknowledge history and development. In a religious context the conservatives... were those who saw tradition as a dynamic process rather than as a static deposit. (33) This is not enough for Davis to meet the situation we face today. He calls for a more radical revisioning of faith, raising the question, Are we not in a situation that cannot be met by an orderly development of traditional categories; but which demands something radically new? (34) One may lean more to Newman's view of a growing organic process or to Davis's with his call for radical revisioning, but the option not open to an honest facing of the present crisis of the church is a conception of the Bible, theological © Grand Valley State University �The Book That Binds Us Richard A. Rhem Page12   formulation, and Christian practice as fixed, into which contemporary human experience and present human knowledge on all fronts must be crammed. In a recent issue of Context, Martin Marty lifts a quotation from Newman from Ian Ker's Newman on Being a Christian. Marty writes, “With development and change in mind—over against a static picture of God, the human, faith, and doctrine—we read: It is indeed sometimes said that the stream is clearest near the spring. Whatever use may fairly be made of this image, it does not apply to the history of a philosophy or belief, which on the contrary is more equable, and purer, and stronger, when its bed has become deep, and broad, and full. It necessarily rises out of an existing state of things, and for a time savours of the soul. Its vital element needs disengaging from what is foreign and temporary.... It remains perhaps for a time quiescent; it tries, as it were, its limbs, and proves the ground under it, and feels its way. From time to time it makes essays which fail, and are in consequence abandoned. It seems in suspense which way to go; it wavers, and at length strikes out in one definite direction. In time it enters upon strange territory; points of controversy alter their bearing; parties rise and fall around it; dangers and hopes appear in new relations; and old principles reappear under new forms. It changes with them in order to remain the same. In a higher world it is otherwise, but here below to live is to change, and to be perfect is to have changed often. References: © Grand Valley State University � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Richard A. Rhem Collection Description An account of the resource Text and sound recordings of the sermons, prayers, services, and articles of Richard Rhem, pastor emeritus of Christ Community Church in Spring Lake, Michigan, where he served for 37 years. Starting in the mid 1980's, Rhem began to question some of the traditional Christian dogma that he had been espousing from the pulpit. That questioning was a first step in a long and interesting spiritual journey, one that he openly shared with his congregation. His journey is important, in part because it is reflective of the questioning, the yearnings, and the gradual revision of beliefs that many persons in this part of the century have experienced and continue to experience. It is important also because of the affirming and inclusive way his questioning was done and his thinking evolved. His sermons and other written and spoken materials together document the steps in his journey as it took a turn in 1985, yet continued to revolve around the framework and liturgies of the Christian calendar. Subject The topic of the resource Clergy--Michigan Reformed Church in America Christ Community Church (Spring Lake, Mich.) Religion Interfaith worship Sermons Sound Recordings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Rhem, Richard A. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/514">Richard A. Rhem papers (KII-01)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kaufman Interfaith Institute Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource English Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context KII-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1981-2014 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 text/pdf Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RA-4-19921201 Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1992-12-01 Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Title A name given to the resource The Book That Binds Us Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Perspectives: A Journal of Reformed Thought Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Richard A. Rhem Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Language A language of the resource eng Description An account of the resource Article created, delivered, or published by Richard A. Rhem (Dick) on December 1, 1992 entitled "The Book That Binds Us", it appeared in Perspectives, pp. 12-17. Tags: Authority of Scripture, Experience, Faith Tradition, Critical Thinking, Faith, Mystery. Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Authority of Scripture Critical Thinking Experience Faith Faith Tradition Mystery