795 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/94d79f02423858a8258b19408d9aa3a0.pdf 7da630bdf7af9b47c15fb2e7ae3c1f3b PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Debra Sawinski Interviewers: Brian Schreur, Laura Sawinski, Marcus Bell and Robin Moening Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 11/28/2011 Biography and Description Debra Sawinski discusses how she started the first all girls track team at her high school and the struggles that came along with in. Transcript LAURA: Oral history project. We are here on November 28, 2011. I am Laura Sawinski and I am here with Debra Bussing Sawinski to talk about her involvement in the formation of the track team at Fruitport High School in Fruitport, Michigan. First I need you to sign our consent form. This states that you agree to participate in the interview and that you agree to have your name published and if not you can state that now. DEBRA: I agree. LAURA: It also says that you understand the interview will take approximately 2 hours and that you can withdrawal from the project whenever you feel necessary without any prejudice. You also agree that upon completion of the interview the recording and consent of that recorded belongs to Grand Valley State University. You understand that any restrictions to use of portions of the interview indicated by me will be edited out of the final copy of the transcript. You understand that upon completion of this interview and signing this release the recordings, photographs and one copy of the transcript will be kept in Grand Valley State University library special collections in Allendale, Michigan. So here you can wish to remain anonymous or to be identified by name. DEBRA: Identified by name. My initials? LAURA: Yes. To start this interview and to find out your experiences with starting the track team and how you got to that point.. .11 you could tell us about your childhood, what it was like growing up, and just the background of you as a child. DEBRA: Well I grew up in the country and our neighborhood was kind of unique. My grandfather had owned all the land and he divided it up so all ofmy neighbors were also related, my aunts and uncles, cousins and I.. .wejust did everything together and maybe that’s where I got.. .to the point where I liked running because we had to run in between each other’s houses all the time to- - because we had no Page 1 �tel—in our house we had no telephone so in order to use the telephone we ran to somebody else’s house. LAURA: And explain your family, how many siblings you had or what it was like growing up being so close to your family or extended family. DEBRA: I have four sisters, two of them are older two of them are younger. Probably the two older ones we did more things together because we’re closer in age. And I. ..being that close to our relatives we had a shared feel that we did a lot of different things, activities. It was just a good neighborhood. Everybody watched out for everybody else and we did lots of things together, we-- that’s who we played with, had baseball fields set up, did all kinds of things together. So it was a really—just a really neat experience growing up. LAURA: And how long did you guys live in the same proximity was it until you graduated high school or did some move along the way? DEBRA: Well some ofmy older cousins moved away but we all basically lived here and all of us went to the same high school and graduated from the same high school. LAURA: And where did you attend school throughout your whole year, where did you start with your first year until the year you graduated? DEBRA: Went to Fruitport Elementary, Fruitport Middle School, and Fruitport High School. LAURA: And what was your experience in general? Did you like school, did you enjoy going and what part did you enjoy the most? DEBRA: For the most part I liked school; it was a good experience all the way through. Of course there are parts that you don’t like more than others.. .let’s see. I didn’t like Spanish very well but I did really well in social studies. I took every history class, every geography class that there was available so, I liked English classes. I have—I was accepted into honors lit which was a really fun class and had a really good time with that and... For the most part I did very well in school and liked it. LAURA: What kind of treatment did you receive during your school years? Did you feel that you were treated fairly well or were some kids treated better than others? Or with you being a female did that ever effect how you were treated or did you feel like it was pretty equal across the board? DEBRA: I think some kids were treated better than others, just their personalities or whatever it may have been. I know that I had to ride the bus and I know even our bus driver had her favorites and— LAURA: Were you one of them? DEBRA: No. I was not. Usually it was the boys that were a favorite, only certain ones. And. . .but for the most part I feel I was treated fairly. I don’t remember ever being.. .not.. .because I was a girl not being treated fairly. I think that across the board it was pretty equal. Page 2 �LAURA: And what year were you when you decided or thought that you would want to start a girl’s track team? DEBRA: Senior year of high school. LAURA: And why did you decide that you wanted to start that track team even though in Fruitport there hadn’t been a girl’s track team? DEBRA: There were about four of us seniors who all liked some portion of track whether it was running or shot-put or whatever it may have been. We all liked that part. In gym class we did very well in those areas. And when we were seniors, and especially one of the girls was--had a boyfriend who was on the guy’s track team and we thought it would be fun to have a girl’s track team and a good experience for us. LAURA: Do you have a main motivation for starting the team or just was it something you guys enjoyed and thought why not? DEBRA: We thought it was time that the girls had a track team. Other schools had girl’s track teams and Fruitport had never had one. So we thought it was time that they had one and if we were going to have anything to do with it we had to do it quickly because we were all seniors and.. .so we just started to move forward in that just kind of talking about it among ourselves and then figuring out what to do to get one going. LAURA: So is there a reason why you waited until you were a senior to start the formation of n a track team? DEBRA: I think we just didn’t, we didn’t think that we could do it, that most the sports werem started by either a faculty member or the need to have it and I don’t think that any of us thought that we would— could or would be able to do what we did in starting the team. LAURA: Who was the most influential you think in helping you start the team. Like you said there was faculty that normally had started it was there a faculty member that had helped you? Or anyone in particular? Or did you feel like you as a collective group kind of had to head it up and convince others that you guys needed a track team? DEBRA: I think that there were the four of us and we went to the athletic director at that time was Dale Levondowski and he told us that there was no way that we were going to have a girl’s track team that year. So at that point we went to the guys coach, the boy’s track team coach, and we asked him ifwe could run with the boy’s team and he said yes. LAURA: Were there other girls sports at that time or what options did girls have? DEBRA: There were I believe girls softball, and cheerleading, and I. . . girls basketballLAURA: So why— DEBRA: Oh swimming and gymnastics. Page 3 �LAURA: So why did the athletic director say no way to a track team for girls? DEBRA: First of all he said that we wouldn’t be able to get a coach, we didn’t have the schedule set up, there was no money for uniforms, there.. . it would be a problem with bus transportation. He gave us all the--all the things that involved mostly I believe it was money. That all the things were rooted in that, beside the fact that. . .1 think it would have been more work for him and he just didn’t feel like that-that he didn’t want to do that at that time. LAURA: So with the guys track coach was his idea that yea just come run with us or was he influential or did he try to help you form a team of your own or did he just figure you can just join us? DEBRA: Well he said that if we couldn’t have a team of our own that we could run with the guys and because it was a non-contact sport that would have been allowed. LAURA: So when you went to high school you couldn’t play, like a girl couldn’t play football? DEBRA: No. LAURA: Or wrestling? DEBRA: No, because it was a—it could only be a non-contact sport. And so he said we could run at— come and run with the guys and—and he didn’t cut us any slack for being girls. LAURA: Should he have? DEBRA: No, but I mean we—we had started out a little later with practice than the guys, and I just remember our first—our first practice with the guys it was a five and a half mile run, and some of us made it. So—and it was really interesting because the coach, the coaches, there were two of them, Mike Thompson was the head coach, they drove the car and followed us, we ran on the roads in Fruitport. No, he was, I believe the guys coaches were very, very supportive of us having a girls team. Thought we deserved one, should have one, and that’s why they said that they would go along with us joining the team and supporting us in any way that they could so that we would be able to get a team eventually if it wasn’t that year then hopefully the next year. LAURA: And so you were allowed to practice with them. Were you allowed to run in meets with them, or did you get a team before the meets occurred? DEBRA: We ran with them in practice and worked with them and—and I have to say all the guys were very supportive of us and gave us helpful hints and different things. They were still telling us that we could not have a girl’s track team. So this meet came up, it was an invitational, actually it was held at Grand Valley, the indoor track, and we rode with the guys on the bus and we got to the—the track and there happened to be a few other schools that had girls track teams that came too. And I remember that we had to wait outside the locker rooms until the boys were all done in the locker rooms before they’d let us go in and get changed for the meet. And then we ran in the meet with the guys. They did have separate heats for the girls but we were able to run in the meet and it was after that, that the Page 4 �administration of the school and especially Mr. Levondowski, figured that we were serious about having a girls track team. LAURA: So at that invitational how many guys would you say were there? DEBRA: Overall.., all the schools? LAURA: Yes. DEBRA: Hundreds.. .hundreds. LAURA: And how many girls? DEBRA: Oh less than a hundred, maybe fifty. Of all the teams together because we went into one locker room but there were hun—there were multiple schools and so there were hundreds of boys there to run. LAURA: And at that particular invitational did you feel like there was one school who had way more girls than others or was it kind of a few on each team? DEBRA: There were a couple of schools that fielded a whole team just about for girls. A few others had a pretty good amount. Our school we probably at that one, we—there were, at that point probably five or six from Fruitport that went. LAURA: So as you guys came up with this idea, how did you, the group of you so there was five of you? DEBRA: There was four of us that started out. LAURA: Four of you. Were you friends prior or how did you kind of come together to say hey wouldn’t it be cool to have a track team? DEBRA: We were all friends and we were in this one class together and we sat together—we had to go the library a lot and we ended up always at the same table and talking amongst ourselves I think that that’s really where the formation really started to take place just because we were talking hey we would like to be able to do the—we would like to be able to run and to have a team. LAURA: With the administration did the athletic director ever say hey we have a few sports for girls can’t you just join one of them? Why do you have to make your own team? DEBRA: No. I don’t remember him ever saying that and we found out later that actually there was an equal rights amendment or something along that line that legally they couldn’t tell us no you can’t have—we won’t give you a team but it was the consensus that they would do everything for us not to have a team. Telling us there was no money, there was nothing but ifwe would have taken it to court and even though we didn’t know about it we didn’t know that there was that—that equal rights thing. We had no idea at that time because it had just passed and now of course they even have more rights, the girls do to play sports. Back then it was something new and I think they used the fact of the financial part of it to—to stop us from having a team. Page 5 �LAURA: And do you think for him or others who opposed you that was the main thing? Not that they thought girls shouldn’t or couldn’t run but just the money? DEBRA: I think money was the main thing and then trying to put it all together in a short amount of time would have been—was more work. LAURA: And how long did you have? What was your time frame? Just your senior year? DEBRA: Yes. We—well we started early spring asking for a team and of course it’s a spring sport so had to be done fast. LAURA: So what was your first step in forming the team? Was your first step going to the athletic director? DEBRA: Yes. LAURA: And did you have anything prepared for him or did you just go in there with these ideas you had talked about? DEBRA: I think we just went in with our ideas and asking ifwe could get a team. LAURA: And his first response was? DEBRA: No way. It wasn’t going to happen this year. And that’s when we said—actually the words were used ok we’ll run with the guys. LAURA: And what did he say? DEBRA: He goes—he shook his shoulders and said ok. But I don’t think that he thought that we were going to stick it out and I think that that’s—he wasn’t going to go to all the work when he didn’t think that we would—we would stick it out for the season. LAURA: So he didn’t feel like you were actually committed to this. DEBRA: Yea. LAURA: So how did you feel when you couldn’t have a team when he told you no and you had to run with the guys? Did that anger you or were you like well, we’ll just do this for now? Or did that motivate you more? DEBRA: Yes. We were more determined than ever to prove that we were going to run with the guys and that we were going to make it work, that Fruitport was going to have a girl’s track team. And at that point I think that’s when we enlisted more girls we had a. . . like a little petition so to speak ofhow many—we went up and asked girls if they would like to run, if there was a team would they be interested in running and we did that. LAURA: Was there a number that you had to get to form a team? Page 6 �DEBRA: No, but the more we had the better because there were a lot of events and that we knew that ten of us it would be hard to have a team and be able to even have enough people for the events so we knew we had to get more than that. LAURA: So at your first meet how many did you have? DEBRA: The invitational when we went to Grand Valley? Or at the first— LAURA: When you had a girl’s team. DEBRA: We probably had, well I want to say around twenty. We ended up for the season having 22 all together that stuck it out. We doubled up and made sure that we had somebody in every event. LAURA: So you were able to cover every event? DEBRA: Yes. LAURA: When you first started running with the guys were any of the girls better than the guys? DEBRA: Yes. LAURA: Any how did the guys feel about that? DEBRA: They ma—they would tease us. Saying that we were fast or whatever and back then that, that meant that you weren’t always a nice girl but they, they, though they were really good. They really pushed us and wanted us to excel and so I don’t think any of them were very.. .oh down us or anything and if we beat them they thought that was pretty good. LAURA: So you ran in the invitational at Grand Valley with the guys but in separate heats. Were there any other meets that you ran with the guys? Were you ever combined like for relays or were they always separate even though you were at the same meet? DEBRA: It was always separate. We never run a combined guy run one leg and a girl we never did that, no they were completely separate. LAURA: How did you do that with only five girls then? DEBRA: Because by the time the first meet, dual meet, came we—we had a team. LAURA: But at Grand Valley you just ran...? DEBRA: We ran what we could. There was a—a relay team and then a couple of other events that we were able to run in. LAURA: So you just weren’t able to run in everything? DEBRA: Right. Page 7 �LAURA: And how would you say your support from your family was kind of from the beginning of the first formation of the idea and then when the team actually formed and after that. What would you say the progression of support from your family and other friends who weren’t on the track team? DEBRA: I would say our support from our friends was good and they came out to cheer us on. Me personally I did not have much support from my family. I had to go to someone else—actually to get to a practice a lot of times if the practice wasn’t right after school if it was a day when school wasn’t on because we did often have Saturday practices, I would have to run to my friends house that lived on the next road over and hitch a ride with her into school with her because I wasn’t able to use my parents car. The only one from my family who ever saw me run in the—in track was my youngest—younger sister Penny. Neither my mom nor my dad ever saw me run. My mom wasn’t very supportive of it at all. She thought it was foolish and didn’t know why a girl would want to run track. My dad was a little bit better about it. He—he worked at night so he couldn’t come to the meets because he had, was either at work or going to sleep. But he did ask me about it and so each time we had a meet I would tell him about my race and how well I did and that and but as far as the rest of it—my one older sister Denise probably would have done very well if there had been a track team when she was in school because she could always beat me no matter how much I practiced or anything in track, she was, she was very very good and would have done well and I always have wished there had been a team for her because I think that that would have been a very neat thing for her so other than that I don’t—a lot ofmy other friends especially Barb Vennema who was one of the main ones in starting the team, her—her mom was really supportive of us and she was at most of the meets and really encouraged us on, and like I said a lot ofmy friends were really supportive of it. LAURA: And you said that your mom wasn’t necessarily supportive or thought it was foolish. Can you describe kind of her thoughts on a girl and what her role should be? DEBRA: We should go to school and do the work that we need to do and come home and do the chores that she gave us to do. And I still had to all ofmy work at home after I got done with practice whether— and part of that was cleaning up the supper work or whatever even if I hadn’t eaten even if I had missed the meal. It was my job to do the dishes and clean up the supper table and that’s what I had to do no matter if I had just come from a meet and were later or whatever it was. I just had to get all ofmy work done and—and that’s how it was. I mean she just didn’t— she just thought it was all foolishness and couldn’t understand why anyone would want to run around a track. So, she—she did not grow up with the idea that girls should be involved in sports or any of that so she just couldn’t figure out why one of her daughters would want to be interested in that. LAURA: Did your older sisters play any sports? DEBRA: No. LAURA: So you were the first to be in a sport? DEBRA: Yes. I was rebellious. Page 8 �LAURA: Airight. And do you feel like your dad would have possibly gone to more if he wasn’t working at night? Or do you think that he kind of distanced himself as well thinking that it’s not necessary? DEBRA: No, I think he would have come because he always asked me about them and always had me run through—it was like running my race for the second time and telling him how we did and all ofthat. He made sure that he always asked me and I felt that he would have come if he would have been able to. My one sister did play the clarinet in the band and he always went to her concerts when he could, so I knew that he would have come if he would have been able to. LAURA: And what did your dad do for a job? DEBRA: He drove a truck. LAURA: So he was gone at night? DEBRA: Yes. He—he—actually he was gone a lot and so sometimes he would work until late in the evening—and then he would. . .he would get up, he’d have to sleep a few hours and then he got up and would have to be on the road again by midnight or a little bit before. So it was at that point, it was impossible for him to go to a meet. LAURA: And did your mom have a job? DEBRA: No, she was the housewife. LAURA: So do think that in any way that disappointed you or how did you just feel like this is what you wanted to do so you would do it or—were you wishing for more support from your family or how did you feel that that experience with your family not being 100% supportive, how do you feel like that affected you, if any? DEBRA: Well it didn’t change my mind I still wanted to be on the track team, to have a track team. So it didn’t change my mind at all. It would have made me feel probably better to know that there was more support and that they were behind me 100% in doing it but it didn’t change my mind I still wanted to do it. LAURA: And with your friends you mentioned one in particular, Barb, who was close with you and helped start the team with you. Do you feel like you guys had a special bond or you guys created a bigger and better friendship because of being involved in something like this? DEBRA: Yes and—and the fact that we were together every day in practice and running and had a common goal together especially those that were seniors and that were on the team. There were four of us that started it, Barb Vennema, Beth Cummings, and Pam Straight and each of us did a different event we didn’t even run the same events or anything. And—but yet there was always that common goal and we were always there to help each other and I think that that made our friendship stronger, and especially for Barb and I. We just, it was just one of the best experiences that we had that we could—and, and making a difference and starting something new and knowing that maybe the next year they would even do better the girls track team, than what we were—we were able to do. Page 9 �LAURA: With you four was it a coincidence that you did not run the same thing? DEBRA: I think... No. LAURA: Or based on different abifities it just kind of happened that you were not all milers DEBRA: Right I think it was our different abilities and also we started with guys and figuring out the events we were going to have, barb was the miler, and Beth ran shot put or did shot put and ran a couple of long distance events, Ann ran hurdles why we don’t know she just liked them, and I did middle distance the 880 and 440 which today is the 800 meter and 400 meter so it was just what we thought we were good at and what we like of course it helped that barbs boyfriend was a miler on the guys track team so she trained a lot with him so maybe that’s why she chose that one. LAURA: Did any of you hold any records in the races that you ran in the short time you were there? DEBRA: Well we all set records and they were all broken the next year but no for mine in the 880 I held the record for two years and I think that there was one other one but I’m not sure but I know that one but the goal was to have somebody break our record because in all actuality we were not very good and so the goal was to each year to improve and that is what happened. LAURA: And in forming this team and you necessarily did not have the support from the administration because they didn’t want to put the time and money into it how did you go about organizing the meets once you had a team established with different schools was that something that you were responsible for? DEBRA: No what happened is that when, I believe that when the administration the athletic director in particular saw that we were serious and that we were going to run with the guys team whether we had a girls team or not things started to take place I remember being called into his office and being told that because they saw that we were going to run with the guys that they had found somebody who would coach and actually it was going to be a team they did the girls swim team it was Linda and Roger Harriman.. . linda would be the head coach for the girls track team and roger would assist her and we thought it was funny because we knew that they were interested in it from the very beginning but the administration kept saying no we couldn’t have one so it was within a matter of a couple of weeks we had a coach we had new uniforms the schedule was set up busses were arranged and for the rest of the season it wasn’t like we had to set up the meets ourselves or anything Mr. Lovendowski had to go ahead and do that and we just always marveled that they were adamant that we weren’t going to have a team and then that was put together within a couple of weeks and I mean all of the things that needed to be done the meets he called other schools and got the meets because almost all of the other schools that the guys ran against had girl track teams so it was just the matter of us having another bus maybe to go to that meet there were a couple of meets that we went to that the guys didn’t go to that they set up separately so that we would feel enough events to if it was at all possible to qualify for states or conference but for the most part it was all done by Mr. Lovendowski once I think they saw the we were really serious and there were girls that were going to come out for the team. Page 10 �LAURA: So did you feel that he wasn’t against you personally he just didn’t want to put time and effort into something that wasn’t going to happen? DEBRA: Right I don’t think he was ever against us personally he just said it wasn’t it wouldn’t happen because of the timing the fmancial reasons and just the work that had to go into it Ijust don’t think he thought it was going to be worth it. LAURA: So you didn’t get uniforms until the track team was officially started correct? DEBRA: Correct. LAURA: So what did you wear before you had an official girl’s team? DEBRA: We wore some old basketball girls basketball teams uniforms which if anything about sports they are completely different from track uniforms so they were a little awkward but we were happy to have them we used them. LAURA: So you felt since other schools had already had a girls team there was no opposition from other schools and it was fairly easy to collaborate with them to get a team going and do you feel they were supportive of you guys getting a team as well? DEBRA: Yes some of the schools were really glad because they had girls teams and it made it a lot easier if they could run it in conjunction at the same day with the boys teams because they would run one race for the guys and then we would run a race as girls or whatever it was and then in the 2 mile and the mile they would run together and just have different timers but it worked out well and a lot of the schools were glad that we had started the team. LAURA: What were some of the schools that you ran against? DEBRA: Spring Lake, Muskegon, Mona shores, kellogsville, I can’t even think of all of them that we ran against. LAURA: Are they fairly the same conference that Fruitport is still currently in? DEBRA: Yes well a lot of it has changed since then because they have changed the boundaries and the rules and all of that but for the most part it would be the same o we ran against orchard view Fremont Fremont is where we held the conference was held that year at Fremont Reese puffer LAURA: And the other girls track teams did they have uniforms at first did you ever feel inadequate when you would go against established teams or were you just ready to run? DEBRA: I don’t know if the word inadequate would be the word we felt kind of a little bit awkward because they weren’t track teams but we were so excited to be running that we really didn’t care if we had to wear are own shirts t-shirts or whatever we would of done that but at least we looked like a team because we were all in a uniform even though they weren’t the correct ones. LAURA: In terms of running shoes what did you wear for shoes just regular tennis shoes? Page 11 �DEBRA: I did there were a couple of girls that we had that were sprinters that got a hold of some cleats but I ran with tennis shoes just regular tennis shoes because that’s all I had at the time a lot of us did we ran with tennis shoes but because we knew that our shoes weighed differently what we would do is run with weights at practice and then they felt lighter when we got to the meets. LAURA: And how did you figure that out was that something you guys came up with or did the guys help? DEBRA: The guys helped because they all had a lot of them had their track cleats and things and we knew that there were other shoes out there because we were interested in track so we learned things and read things and got information so we knew there were other things out there but a lot of us didn’t have extra money for that and of course the school didn’t provide for any of that either. LAURA: So when you started the team you had 4 girls and when you had an official girls team how many did you have? DEBRA: About 22. LAURA: And how long did that take you to get or did you find that it was hard to or were girls eager to join the track team? DEBRA: I think they were eager to join the track team there were a couple we would of liked to of had but their fathers said no that they couldn’t run track was not for girls so we had but for the most part we had ones that were really interested and really committed to it we got juniors and sophomores on the team so that we knew it would carry through to the next year we had a couple in fact our one sprinter actually qualified for conference and regional’s that year even and she was very good and the next year went on to win other things but we just went around asking as many as we could plus others had different commitments so the next year it was even bigger but that’s what we ended up with was 22 for the year. LAURA: Do you know approximately how many today run at Fruitport? DEBRA: No I don’t know for sure the team is a lot bigger they fill a couple 2 to 3 for each event and so the team is a lot bigger and has done a lot better in fact a couple of years after I was there they had quite a few that even qualified for conference and states and that so it’s grown over the years. LAURA: Did either one of your younger sisters run in the track team? DEBRA: No they didn’t my next younger sister probably would of but I don’t know that she really liked running she did powder puff football and that kind of thing and then my youngest sister had rheumatoid arthritis and was never able to run very well so she did not run on the track team either. LAURA: Is that something you would of liked for them to do or were you just happy to do it yourself? DEBRA: Well I was happy to do it myself but I would of liked to have see one of them do it I tried to encourage my sister penny to go out for the team but it just didn’t work out for her to do that. Page 12 �MOM: In our year on the track team was a harder year to the coach they had set up Linda Herrmann on our sports we had a sports banquet with the team and that night her daughter hit her head and had a brain aneurysm and she died so our last couple of regular meets plus the conference regional’s were with a different coach just one of the teachers he was math teacher Mr. Carison just stepped in and also one of the counselors Mr. Broderick stepped in to help the team going with us as a coach and that so it made the season a little bit more difficult and we were very determined after that because we wanted to not only do well for ourselves but to honor Linda and the effort that she had put out as our coach and losing her daughter and not being able to finish the season with us. LAURA: Was she ever the coach again? DEBRA: No her daughter’s death hit her pretty hard and so she didn’t come back as the swim coach or the track coach. LAURA: Do you know who then took over? DEBRA: Nope I don’t. LAURA: Do you feel like after you guys had your season that the rest of the school body and the administration were behind you and backed you? DEBRA: Yea I think that they did we got a lot of good comments from people staff members other students who think it was something that students saw that even though they were told no that things could still happen and I think that they were all very supportive and very glad that we did that and proud that there were some students that took action on their own we had a number of guys later that kept saying that there should be a plaque put up in the school for us because we went against the opposition and even though at the time we didn’t think it was any big deal but I guess other people thought it was and girls that ran afterwards were glad that we did that because even though the school would eventually I believe had a girls track team because that would have been what they did for sports I don’t know how many years it would of been before they would of done that. LAURA: So how do you think your impact on others was or what do you think your impact was in terms of those who ran track as well as those who did not do you feel like you guys had an impact on them? DEBRA: You mean on other students. LAURA: Yes. DEBRA: Yes I think we had an impact girls saw that they could have a sport even though if it wasn’t established at that time since then of course there is volleyball and all kinds of sports for girls and fruit port girls have done very well I think that it made a difference and kids believing that they could have a voice in the school even though they were told at first no and that if they showed detennination and stuck with something things could change. LAURA: Overall do you feel like you were satisfied with the outcome of what you four started? Page 13 �DEBRA: Yes overall we were glad the next year our records were broken and the next year more records were broken and as we could see that girls became more interested in track and ones that could excel at it because track is a team sport but also its an individual sport so girls that maybe weren’t really good in a gymnastic setting or even swim team were able to go out on the track and run around and they could do really well or they could high jump or even shot put or whatever it was it was a whole different kind of sport then gymnastics or swim team and so they could do something that maybe they could excel at. LAURA: So even though you were satisfied with the outcome what would you say were some of the greatest obstacles that you faced in developing the track team? DEBRA: Probably the greatest obstacle was just proving to those in leadership that we were going to stick with it and fmancially the opposition there being told that there was no money and we never were told where the money came from when they finally decided to let us have the team we all of a sudden the money was there so I think all along the money was there they just didn’t want to use it for that because they didn’t think that we were going to stick with it and so I think that was our greatest opposition was the administration it wasn’t the boys on the team it wasn’t the coaches themselves the guys coaches were great about it and so it wasn’t them I think it was the administration was our greatest opposition and using the funds for that. LAURA: In terms of the community or media did you get any media coverage or how do you feel the community felt what you guys were doing was right or wrong did you feel that you got support from them? DEBRA: I think for the most part we did get support from the community I know that there were a couple articles in the local newspaper in Fruitport and then also in the school newspaper of course you are going to have opposition from those who weren’t supportive of girls sports in the first place and like I said there were a couple girls their dads wouldn’t let them run and that kind of thing but overall the community support was good and I know that in the next years that followed there was a lot of support for the girls track team. LAURA: Did you feel like the team had a following if you went to different meets were people there to watch and support you? DEBRA: There were a few parents that did come regularly to the meets there were some of our friends who came and usually were there to support us but for the mostp it was if there were people at the meets they were there to watch the guys and even though they supported the girls we knew they weren’t there just to see us there were a couple on the guys team that were very good and they had a lot of fans you could say but I don’t think we really even thought about it or even cared who was there to watch us we were there to run and that’s what we wanted to do. LAURA: Were you involved in any other extracurricular at Fruitport or did track take up most of your time? Page 14 �DEBRA: I worked on the school newspaper and then also the yearbook although at that time the school newspaper was a class so I did that during the class time yearbook took up so time for me once I became involved in track that took up a lot ofmy time. LAURA: And in track or the other activities that you did, did you feel like that helped you as a person or in leadership roles do you think that did it take you out of your comfort zone or were you very comfortable in taking the role of a leader? DEBRA: Before that track team I didn’t know that I could lead I think it did take me out of my comfort zone for the most part I was pretty quiet in school until I had to go to the athletic director and talk to him about the track team and I remember that I somehow became the spokesman and when he needed something or wanted to talk to somebody I got called to his office about the team and how that happened I’m not even sure but I believe that the experience with the track team gave me a lot more confidence as an individual and helped me in going off to school and thinldng that I could take on things that I hadn’t taken on before and after school and working at a public school I was able to coach assistant coach for one year and coach the next year the girls track team which was a new venture for Comstock Park also at that time the girls track team was a new thing for them and that was pretty neat to get to see these girls trying to make the team work in their school to and working with them so I think the experience of starting a girls track team at Fruitport was life changing for me. LAURA: As the coach at Comstock Park did you share with them what you had done and did you feel they were more inspired by what you had done to inspire them? DEBRA: I think so I was able to talk with a lot of girls and say you got to keep trying you got to keep pushing and even though they were new and actually for being a new team they had quite a few girls that came out for the team and then of course talking to them because unless you have a vast amount of talent in the school the first year as a team in any sport will be a struggle and just fmding out where you fit in and different things like that so I think I was able to talk to the girls at Comstock Park because there team was new and encouraging them that it wasn’t always going to be like that they would have each year improve and more girls would be interested and more girls would come out and so then you can specialize in your events and you don’t have to run or fill in so that you have enough to fill the events and that’s what I think our first year at Fruitport because we didn’t have as many and we had to fill in and maybe we couldn’t focus on just one event like some of the schools that you run against girls would only run one event I remember I would have to run against girls in the 440 that were fresh coming out to run the 440 and I’d already run an 880 and so I never came out on my 440 fresh and not already used up a lot of energy for that so I had to and that makes a difference and that part I could encourage others and that say keep working at it and it will happen. LAURA: Are you glad that you were in the place you were at Fruitport to start the team or does a part of you wish that you could have specialized in an event.. .had it already been established? DEBRA: Sometimes I wish I would have been able to specialize, I would have liked to have seen what I could have done. But yet, as I said, the whole experience of starting a team, working administration, Page 15 �standing up for something I really thought should be was life changing and I wouldn’t have wanted to change that even if I could have focused on one event. LAURA: Although it was life changing for you did you think about the impact that it would have on future generations of girls pretty much forever? DEBRA: Not a whole lot. We knew that, the next year the girls were going to be able to have a team and it would be kind of neat to see. And it wasn’t until I was coaching and we went to a regional meet, where I saw girls from Fruitport running and it was kind of neat to see girls from Fruitport in Fruitport uniforms.. .by that time they had new uniforms.. .and just be able to see them run and win events and stuff and think “I was part of that, I had a part in letting them run.” LAURA: Do you think that they knew what you guys had done for them? Do you think that necessarily girls think about that? DEBRA: I think the couple years after we graduated I think they thought about it. But after that, no. Because the stories die down and they don’t know you as much. I think those that were freshmen when we were seniors in running, they still remembered it when they got to be seniors. But after that no. Even though there were, like I said, those guys kept saying that a plaque needed to be put up. LAURA: Is there? DEBRA: No. That was never done. LAURA: So there’s nothing a Fruitport High School to show that you guys started the team? DEBRA: No, just in the archives that will say when the team started and the records that go back. And I guess the athletic director will have the archives or the yearbooks are in the libraries. And that’s pretty all that, except for our memories. (laughs) LAURA: Do you have any advice that you would give to others that face adversity? DEBRA: I guess my advice would be, first determine is what you’re doing or what your faith, is it worth standing up for. And if you believe that it is worth standing up for that, and that it will make an impact later than, to stay with it. And eventually things will change. They may not always change to the way you want them to or exactly the way you pictured it. But things will change and to just stay with it. LAURA: What do you think the key factors were for you personally to keep with it? What drove you to stick with it and what determined you to start this team? DEBRA: Well I always liked running. I thought I was good at it. And I wanted to win a first place (laughs), I guess that motivated me a lot to want to do that. But also for the fact that I guess.. .because we wanted a team... guys had team, and why couldn’t girls have a track team in school. And just that they told us “No, we couldn’t have one”, and that we just wanted to show people that we could. And that kept us going and when the guys coach told us we could run with them and the fact that when we ran with guys they were very supportive of us and kept us along with that. Page 16 �LAURA: So do you think without the support of the guys it would have been a lot harder? DEBRA: Yes! Yes. Because there was...I mean just little things that they would tell us. How to keep hydrated. How to.. .you know something, if we had pains, how to stretch. How to do just things that they were always.. .that they got told by the coaches and had been working at it. They had already had a team for years. And just little things that they did. I’ll never forget.. .a funny thing. They told us to have orange slices but oranges go fast. And so one kid told us have a grapefruit. He always brought a grapefruit and that’s what we started doing (laughs). And grapefruits lasted through the whole track meet. LAURA: Do you think that the difference in the community and how close knit some people were, do you think that affected their support or did they just want to see you succeed regardless whether you were a close knit community? DEBRA: I think they just wanted us to succeed. I don’t think at that time we were really.. .1 don’t know if close knitted community Fruitport is.. .buy yet I think there would be support for the team. It was just the right time. LAURA: So after you graduated where did you.. .you coached at Comstock Park and where did you go after that? DEBRA: Well I went to school to Grand Rapids School of the Bible in New Zeek. And there I ran.. .which was interesting they had a cross country team for the guys but did not for the girls. And there was a couple of us that did run with the guys at a couple of the cross country meets. To me that was just a usual thing at the point. And we didn’t get a whole lot of support there but we still did it. One of the girls happened to be from the Ludington area Scotville, who came from the school with a tremendously big girls school track team. And she was this All-State champion. And her and I hooked up together and we ran cross country with the guys there and ran with the school of Bible Music. And it was after that the.. .1 was working at Comstock Park Public School. After that, got married and moved away. Continued to run for a number of years and finally let it go. But always been supportive of track teams. Had a daughter, have a daughter who ran track and was always real proud of that. Felt that in some ways it was just cool to watch my daughter get to run on a team and not have to question whether she would be able to or not, it’s an accepted thing now for girls. And that’s a cool thing to watch. LAURA: Do you think even if it wasn’t socially acceptable with your experience would you be supportive of your daughter even though your mom wasn’t fully supportive of you? DEBRA: I think so I... We all have our individual taste and even though it might be something that I might not be fully liking but that she would like it I think that I would be supportive for her. LAURA: Did your mom ever later have more support for you or after you started the team, did she show more support or was she still distant? DEBRA: I would say no she’s never been supportive of it. In fact I talked to her not too long ago about it. She just always brushes it off as, well she has other things to do. And she flatly told me that she didn’t think girls should have been involved in that. So that’s the way it stands and probably always will be. Page 17 �LAURA: Do you think with that experience that you were more supportive of your children or did you try to attend more activities they did? DEBRA: Yes, I never wanted one ofmy children to ever say that my parents never saw me do something. So I made the determination at that point that I would go to what my children were involved in and watch them, whether it was something I really liked or not. I don’t always understand some of the games but I was there to support them no matter what because I did not ever want them to look up in the stands and wonder what it would be like to have mom and dad there. I never wanted them to wonder that. I wanted them to know that I was supportive of them and I would be there for them. LAURA: So, although track was a big part of your life, you said that you think that it gave you the confidence to do things that helped you in other areas of like and if so, what? DEBRA: I think it did give me help in other areas of my life, it gave me confidence that I didn’t know that I had. Because I could stand up for what I believed in and for what I wanted. I could voice my opinion. And in what areas.. .1 just think an overall in life. I mean even just going to job interviews later on, and just meeting different people and talking to different people. It gave me the confidence to know that I was capable of doing things I hadn’t tried before. And it helped me want to try to do other things that I hadn’t before. LAURA: With your children did you ever share your story of starting the track team in hopes that they would have the confidence to stand up what they believed in? DEBRA: I did share it, I don’t know if they ever did something with it (laughs). But yeah I did share it in hoping that they would try something new, to go out there and maybe it’s not always easy, life isn’t always easy. And just to, to try it. Even though there is opposition sometimes that it’s not the norm thing. LAURA: Have you been back to Fruitport since you graduated? DEBRA: I have not. Oh, I take that back. I did come back to Fruitport, there was one meet that I did go to while I was still in the Grand Rapids area and after that I moved away. So I haven’t been back since then. But I did come back and try to keep track of it. Especially when my sister was in school, my sister Penny and my sister Jennifer, I tried to keep track of what was going on and how the track meet was or how the track team was doing. But to come back for a track team after that for a track meet, I haven’t. LAURA: Did you ever think that you would stay in Fruitport and coach the track team or wasn’t that some that you necessarily wanted to do? DEBRA: Never thought about it, never thought about coming back and coaching there or even.. .1 left shortly after I graduated from high school and really have not lived in the area since. So I really never thought about coming back. LAURA: Do you have any ties to the Fruitport area still? Page 18 �DEBRA: Yes I have my sister. In fact now that you.. .my sister’s youngest daughter is running track and did last year in middle school. And she has another year in middle school and hopefully she’ll stick with track and go on to run for the high school. That would be pretty neat to see? LAURA: Does she know that you started the track team? DEBRA: I told her! (laughs). I said “Kelsey”. I told her that little story and hopefully she’ll remember that. And I know that my sister Penny remembers it, she was the one who came and watched the few times when she could. Staying after school, she had to stay after school and come over to the track meet. So hopefully, Kelsey will continue to run and maybe I’ll get to see her run in a high school meet. LAURA: Did you feel that because of what you accomplished that people or your sister in particular looked up to you? DEBRA: Penny, to a certain extent, looked up to me and that always make you feel good when someone looks up to you. But I think that the one thing that made a difference for me in thinking about it, is because my sister who, next oldest to me Denise, was always very good at running and everything. And I remember her always saying, “I wish there would have been a team for me, I wish I could have done what you did.” And that was always kind of neat because a lot of times when you’re the younger, you don’t hear that for the older siblings very much. And it was neat to have Penny, one of the younger ones look up to me, but it was kind of neat to have an older sister say that. LAURA: Did you feel the impact of people being inspired by you or were you just happy with yourself and not really worried what others thought, positively or negatively? DEBRA: I don’t think I really thought about how other people were going to see it. I was just happy that I could run and participate in the meets. I really didn’t think about what other people were thinking about it. LAURA: And in terms of accomplishments did you receive any varsity letters or medals? DEBRA: I received a varsity letter and numerals also. Did not receive any medals. I never was able to place first in any of the events that I ran. I was close, I was only a tenth of a second against Muskegon. So even though that would have been nice, it was just the fact I was able to run and 4. come that close. So yeah got my varsity letter and numerals. And I hadn’t been able to do that in any other thing because I wasn’t involved in any other sport so it was kind of neat to be able to accomplish that. LAURA: And was there a specific leader or.. • was there one person that was the point person or the.. .kind of the head of the track team besides the coach or did the four starters kind of take the role? DEBRA: I think it was mostly Barb, Venimu, and I that were the leaders. Pam was kind of a quiet girl, so she didn’t really take that much. And Beth, she was kind of crazy (laughs) and she just wasn’t very organized or anything. So I think it was mostly Barb and myself that became the point people or the spokespeople when there was an issue or something that needed to be handled, the athletic director would ask for one of us. Or when Linda.. .the Haremans, when her daughter died. It was Mr. Carlson and Mr. Broderick who would ask us for information, or who was running what or whatever it was. So that Page 19 �we helped a lot of that. We even ran... one of the meets was on Senior Skip Day and we were told that the seniors didn’t have to show up. But every one of the seniors showed up to run. And that kind of cool because they didn’t have to, but they did anyway. LAURA: Did you receive any special recognition for being one of the two main leaders? DEBRA: Not really.. .1 got larger numerals (laughs) from the athletic director because he said we had helped out with the team so much. But other than that, no. Just at the sports banquet. It was mentioned it was the first year for the team for those who had started it. LAURA: And... DEBRA: I don’t think. LAURA: Are you still close or are you still friends with any of the girls that you first ran with on the track team? DEBRA: With Barb. Pam I haven’t seen since high school. Beth Cummings I saw at our 20th class reunion, she is now a doctor out east at one of the big hospital back there, so she doesn’t come back much. And the fact that I moved away and really have not lived around here since high school made a big factor, (inaudible). There are a couple, Sherry Lenard ran on the team and I still have contact with her. I think that’s about it. I’ve seen a couple of them, but not to have stayed real close in touch with any of them. LAURA: And do you feel that girls today are treated equally in terms of sports? DEBRA: No, I don’t think girls are treated equally. I think boys sports will always get, to a certain extent more recognition, more money, more support. Especially football and boys basketball. Even though girls a lot of times excel at that their sports, I don’t think it’s equal. And I don’t know why that is. But, in any school system that I’ve been involved with or that my kids have been in, I’ve never felt that girls sports are equal to the boys sports, in any way, financially or supportive by the parents or any of that. So I just think it, no I don’t think it’s equal. LAURA: And how many... do you have sons? DEBRA: Yes. LAURA: How many? DEBRA: Two... and one daughter. LAURA: And when watching them did you, felt the same that girls’ sports didn’t get as much recognition as boys and as a parent, does that bother you? DEBRA: I don’t think girls’ sports get as much recognition, even if they win state championships in their division, in their sports. I don’t think their recognized as much as the guys are. I don’t think the attention is focused on girls’ sports. I don’t think that financially the money goes towards girls sports. One school we were in they setup a whole weight room and everything. They told us it was for the football team, even though it had been used for a lot of different sports. It was mainly put there for the boys’ football Page 20 �team. Which was a lot of money and yes, football team players could use it. But I thought it was very unequal to the girls because so much money is put in the boys’ sports and not into girls. I just wonder what it would be like if more money was put into girls sports. The coaches were scrutinized like they are for the boys, especially for football and basketball and that kind of thing. LAURA: So even though you have come so far. ..help Fruitport come far and girls sports as a whole, are you at all disappointed where girls sports are versus boys or do you feel that girls are in a better place than what they used to be? DEBRA: They’ve made a whole lot progress. They’re in a better place than they used to be. Could they be in a better place? Yeah, I think so. Fruitport has a fantastic girls’ volleyball team now. The girls track is better and bigger than it ever was. But I think it could do better, but it doesn’t have the financial backing that boys’ sports does. LAURA: And in closing and further advice or any comments you would like to share? DEBRA: I don’t think so. Just that be supportive of those sports, and if you see something that’s being unfairly done, speak up. Let’s see ifwe can make them equal. LAURA: Airight, thank you. And that concludes our oral history with Debra Bussing Sawinski on November 28th, 2011. END OF INTERVIEW Page 21 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e21dfc76d2c673cc683308457c6476cd.mp3 ce760d719b0e6dd83eb853d19bd1b14d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Sawinski_Debra Title A name given to the resource Debra Sawinski audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sawinski, Debra Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Schreur, Brian Sawinski, Laura Bell, Marcus Moeing, Robin Description An account of the resource Debra Sawinski discusses how she started the first all girls track team at her high school and the struggles that came along with in. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives Discrimination Sex discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-11-28 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7bb38fdc07b797cf3c4580523881c67a.pdf 82a486e39f1a4786c702490a90dabd09 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Robert Robson Interviewers: Kyle LeMieux, Amanda Hengesbac and Tara Yax Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 10/26/2011 Biography and Description Robert Robson is a military veteran who was born and raised in Grand Rapids. He signed a contract with the navy in 1962 and spent 4 years in active duty and 2 years in the inactive reserves. He has a lot of memories from his time in the navy and talked about his views on the military and being a veteran in the United States. Growing up in Grand Rapids he had a lot of stories about some of the things that have been changing in the area including diversity. Transcript YAX: Ok here we go. Hey. Ok so I’m here with Robert Robson, Yes? Ok. Here we go. So where did you grow up? Where were you born? ROBSON: About a mile from where we’re at. YAX: Really? ROBSON: Yeah YAX: Born and raised in Grand Rapids? ROBSON: Yep YAX: How was that? ROBSON: I started out in Gailwood, is where the first home that I remember. it was a middle class low income middle class at the time because that’s what everybody made at that time. You know I mean it wasn’t as the middle class obviously progressed over the years you have the income increase too. But it was it was just a middle class neighborhood. Everybody was equal. my parents we kind of went through, kind of went through the depression and everything. when just before I became school age about four and a half years old and we moved about, about a mile and a half, two miles from where we, where I was raised. And I stayed there until I left home. and I graduated from Lee High school. YAX: Oh ok ROBSON: In 59. So. Page 1 �YAX: So what was it like going through the depression? Do you remember a lot of it? ROBSON: Well I was really really young then. I just remember that, I remember more of the war being over cuz I was, well because I was born in 41, so I, I, but I remember more of the war being over. I remember, vaguely remember fireworks and guns being fired when the war was over [laughter] Of all things. There there’s sort of a you know an oxymoron you know. Guns being fired the war is over. but and, and I remember when we would play we had the tokens and different things. The scrips and different things that we had, my parents had during the war and, and, and through the depression they had little tokens that were worth 5 cents or 5 dollars or a dollar or something. Then they had the, the scrips, which were small little paper chips like and they had values written on them in place of money. And so it’s, it was kind of like, it, it, it was kind of like a forerunner to the food stamp thing. my parents had to pay a certain amount, then they would get these chips and then they could go to the grocery store or gas and buy produce or other stuff with it. YAX: Oh ok ROBSON: And I remember running across a book after my mother died of prices that she paid at a second hand store for, for clothes for us kids. I had two younger sisters and two older sisters and there was prices in there like a pair of socks for a nickel, blue jeans for like fifteen cents, you know. And I would just, just page after page in this book, which was about an inch and a half almost two inches thick. And it was a daily recording of everything that she spent. it just that they had to watch their pennies that closely. YAX: Wow ROBSON: my grandparents actually are the ones that bought the house for my parents. at the time there was a lot of money. I mean the house that we lived in was a very large two story. It had 3 bedrooms, and a bathroom full bath upstairs, and then down stairs you had a, a kitchen and a half bath, a sunroom, and a breakfast nook, and then you had a dining room and a living room. And then the basement was the basement [laughs]. There wasn’t furnished, but it wasn’t a Michigan basement either. It was just a low basement made out of cement blocks and stuff. But that house and it sat on a lot and a half, it was on one of the bigger lots on the street and they paid 5,000 dollars for that house, YAX: Wow ROBSON: Which at that time was a lot of money for a house that big, but we had we figure 5 children and 2 adults living in that house so we needed all the room we could get. And it had a sun porch on the back, which eventually my parents had made into a closed in room. And my mother moved all of her sewing equipment up there. But it also, it also served as an extra bedroom and stuff. YAX: So you lived in a three-bedroom house with five kids? ROBSON: Yeah it was a little crowded [laughter]. Yeah it was a little crowded. But it eventually as my two older sisters got out of high school, my oldest sister, she and her fiancé, he was in the army and he came home eventually they got married and then my other older sister she moved out on her own so then it was just my two younger sisters and myself at home. But still it was, it was it was tough because Page 2 �things were starting to change businesses were, my dad really didn’t have a good trade at that time and he met a man who became a friend and he owned, this man owned the tool and die shop out on 28th street, which is no longer there, the building is no longer there. And he taught my dad how to be a tool and die maker. And so, and my dad was very good with numbers so he caught on pretty quick. so he, he he learned how to be a tool and die maker and then from time to time he worked at American seeding at one time. He worked at Reynolds aluminum, which is now down there on [unintelligible]. It’s a conglomerate now with smaller, with smaller businesses in there, but it used to be Reynolds aluminum. Reynolds metals company originally. He worked there as a tool and die maker and then he, he got, aluminum kind of took a dive for a while there and so he got laid off for a short time and then he ended up working at Steelcase and he retired from Steelcase as a tool and die man. he quit school when he was 16 so that tells you, and he was from a farm he was from the wayland area, which is about what, 30 miles south of here, so 25 30 miles south of here. And, and because he lived on a farm it was the thing for most of the boys to, most boys anyways to go to school until they were about 16 17 years old and then they would quit school and then spend their time helping on the farm. Well he was an only child so his extra hands were needed on the farm. But it was you know his, his grand, his parents lived on this big farm, and they didn’t have a lot of things either. They had a the most modern thing that I remember down there was that they had a a propane tank and that they had a gas stove. That was probably the most thing. Because their, their water, they had a hand pump on the sink you know. they had they raised a lot of their own vegetables and stuff. My grandmother would, would can and they had a what they called a fruit cellar. And that fruit cellar was actually nothing more than a hole dug in the ground, under the house, [laughter] and back under the house a ways, so that there was no heat in it. But in the winter time it acted as cold storage, [laughter] and they would have, she would have all of her stuff, all of her things that she canned during the summer would be sitting down there and so they had food all winter long and then they had this big garden and they always had a lot of potatoes and stuff so they would throw them down there. And there’s nothing worse then spoiled potatoes [laughter], But they had a small farm. It was an 80-acre farm and they did a lot of bartering. Now we’re talking, I was born in 41 so this is the end of the 40’s, early 50’s, and they still bartered with the neighbors. my, my grandmother might have some excess, they might have some excess food out of their garden so if, and they might want to get some eggs so they would take some vegetables or my grandmother would do sewing and they would take that to another farmers house and they would exchange that for say butter and eggs. they didn’t need milk because he had his own milking cows, and he had, he had, we had, they had some chickens, but they only had like a few. Every once in a while one of them would upset my grandfather we’d have it for supper [laughter]. So, so the eggs, so the eggs came out kind of short once in a while. But they had a, they had a pig you know a couple pigs, you know. It was a typical small, small farm really. He farmed, with horses, he didn’t have any machinery, modern machinery you know like tractors and stuff. The first time I saw a tractor on his farm was when they were gonna move from Wayland to Middleville, and what they did was they, they swapped with a man and his family in Middleville who had an 80-acre farm but it wasn’t farming, and what he wanted was a working farm, so they just swapped. And my grandfather wanted to get out of the, because he was getting up there in age, so that’s what they did. And then but they brought over all kinds of people to help harvest the wheat, and the grain and stuff that summer, and do the baling and all that so that all of this stuff could be figured into the costs of the farm, and how much of it you know money wise my Page 3 �grandfather was going to get. Because it was a working farm vs. a non-working farm he had a little bit more of an investment then this other guy did. So he had to, this guy had to pay him some dollars in cash. But so when they moved it. But I remember I never saw so many people, I never saw so much food, [laughter]. And that’s the first time I saw tractors and baling machines. And, and mechanical thrashing machines. YAX: Wow ROBSON: Otherwise my grandfather did everything with a team of horses. He would plow, plant, harvest, everything with his horses. and I would, I got around five or six, about five years old, four or five years old my parents would, I would go down on the farm, and when I was about five or six years old I knew how to drive a team of horses, you know. Which I thought was pretty cool [laughter]. And you know, how many kids in my neighborhood back home that were older then me, they couldn’t drive horses, but I could, you know. So, but It was it was that’s the kind of the way the lifestyle was you know. then, oh and then right across the street there was a lake so they did some fishing. They had fresh fish, and my grandparents had a well YAX: Wow ROBSON: A fresh water well on their farm, which was about four feet, or about, I don’t know, six to eight feet long, about five feet wide, and about eight feet deep about half full of water. And that water in there was clear as glass, and it was just as cold as can be, about forty some degrees. YAX: Oh ROBSON: And it bull heads in the bottom of it to keep the algae out. They would eat all the algae. So they kept the water clear. They had Indians that came over that were in the area down there in Wayland, that picked pickles for some of the neighbors, and they would come over to my grandparents and get fresh water from them. YAX: Oh wow. ROBSON: And these people didn’t have, these people had absolutely nothing to speak of. My parent, my grandparents were rich compared to them. But these people were proud and they would come over and get the water, but they wouldn’t just take the water. They’d get something in return for it. They would do it, and this goes back to the barter thing. they would sharpen grandma’s knives that she needed sharpened in the kitchen or they would take care of grandpa’s tools for him, you know, sharpen tools that needed to be sharpened or and then they would, but they had these huge crocks that you see where they would have the yolks and they would have these two big, on the neck yolks you know, and they would have these big crocks filled with water. These things held about ten gallons each. And there would be women that would carry them on their heads, you know, and hey would take them over to the fields and then they would have that cold water, and these crocks were, would keep that water cold as long as the kept it out of the sun, and the crocks didn’t heat up. You know. but I remember one of the Indian families had a death in the family, and my grandparents took some food over to them, and I remember there was an awful lot of people living in one small house. It was probably, the house was Page 4 �probably twice the size of this room that we’re sitting in, length and width wise. And it had a loft up above. That’s where all the children slept, were in the loft. And it had some rooms down below for their parents and it had a fireplace. That’s where they did all their cooking was in the fireplace. YAX: Ah ROBSON: it had a dirt floor in most of the cases, and it was a paper tar shack, but it had real windows in it, real glass windows in it. But they didn’t have much. Those people didn’t, and but they were good people. They I mean I thought it was really an honor to know real live Indians, you know, and, and know the, I, I knew the chief. I can’t tell you their names cuz I don’t remember them it was so long ago. But they but they were really nice people, you know. but that was how my grand, my great grandfather lived in the reed city area and I went to his farm one time and you talk about something that would, that was desolate. I don’t know how he made a living on that farm, but he did. You know. I mean that farmers in, in, my background being from the farm, these people were, were rugged individuals but they were and tenacious. They wouldn’t give up. You know. And they, they would just as time went on you know, and things got better and better my, my mother and father finally after my dad retired were able to have save enough money and go places. Visit you know, and see some of the world. You know, they and but it, it all came with time, you know, as, as these things advanced and things got better for us kids. We had better clothing we could, we could get dress up clothes [laughter] you know, that we didn’t have before, and so it, it all, it, it you know as, as, as it evolved, as the economies got better and everything after the war and that things got better. The neighborhood was nice I go to that neighborhood now today and it doesn’t look any different then the last time I was there as a kid. YAX: Really? ROBSON: it doesn’t, it hasn’t changed that much at all. The same houses, and I could go down there and name the people that lived in the houses you know. It’s really wild. but it but still it hasn’t changed that much. It’s still a blue-collar neighborhood and it most of the kids still go to Lee. there’s some of them that go to Holy [unintelligible], which is the catholic school over on Godfrey there’s a few of them that, that when I was growing up, up on Grandville avenue there was a Christian school called southwest Christian, and it was a went up to the 7th or 8th grade and then from there they went downtown to Christian high school, which is now I believe where the state now has welfare offices in there, its on Franklin I believe it is. at the top of Franklin and its, its that’s, that school up there is was transformed into a, a welfare office and stuff, and then, because then they built South Christian out south of town, and then the other Christian school over off in Plymouth. YAX: Right. ROBSON: So they didn’t need that big building downtown anymore. So the state bought it and that’s what they use it for. So it’s been a lot of changes and stuff you know, YAX: Right. Page 5 �ROBSON: Around, but it but that’s how my beginnings were, basically my, my parents, my grandmother and grandfather on my mothers side were farmers they lived in Burton Heights right across from Burton school as a matter of fact, and that house is still there. But they had a huge garden in the back too. YAX: H. ROBSON: you know, and you, the amazing thing about my grandfather was he was about 6 foot 3 or 4, he was a big man, but he didn’t drive. And he got a job at Steelcase. YAX: Hmm ROBSON: He would walk everyday to work. From Cutler and Buchanan all the way down to hall and Buchanan to Steelcase. At, actually he’d walk down there to Century and Hall is where, is where it was. Everyday, unless the weather was really, really, super, super bad. And then my grandmother might drive him down or someone would pick him up as he started to walk down there. But, they didn’t have a whole lot either. Their house is you go into that house and its quite small. YAX: Mm hmm ROBSON: It had, I’m trying to remember, I’ve only, I was only upstairs in that house a couple times, but I think it had a a storage space and a bedroom upstairs and then it had, then downstairs was another bedroom and a kitchen and a dining room and a living room and then it had a Michigan basement under it. And it’s, I remember one thing about the house, the stairways were very narrow YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: Really, really narrow. so it wasn’t and course they’d be, being in the city they had gas my grandmother didn’t have to use a, a coal stove or anything like that. She had a, but it was an old fashioned kitchen stove YAX: Mm hmm, ROBSON: I mean compared to what we have today. But, one of the things I’ll say about my grandmothers, both of them, they could cook! [Laughter]. They were excellent cooks. and, and my mother and, and my mother and my sisters, older sisters I think gathered something from those ladies and the way they did cook you know. these ladies could cook without recipes and the food was you know, really good. And bake, oh man they made the best pastries in the world. I know my, my dad’s mother used to make sugar cookies that were probably oh 6 inches in diameter, [laughter] and they’d just melt in your mouth and then my, my mother’s mother she made the best peanut butter cookies in the world. And they were just really good. But those, they, both those ladies could cook, so the food was good. My mother had to learn to do all that stuff. She would go, my mother and 3 of her neighbors [laughs], this was always room for, they would go through the paper and pick out sales that were going on, at Kroger, or A and P or, whoever the stores were around, and then the 4 of them would go shopping together. But what was funny is they might travel, they might spend, use up 5 gallons of gas to save a dime on food or something, which was kind of funny. But they would do that, I mean that might be an exaggeration a little bit, [laughter], but, but that’s what they would do. They would go from, they Page 6 �might go to one store and only pick up 2 maybe 3 items, and then go to another store and get a bunch more, but when they came home they had all the groceries that they went out to get, but they got them at, on sale. Also, we, where my, my parents lived over there, off in Gailwood there over by Lee school there, there was a man named Noel. He lived on the corner of prair [pause to think], what is that prairie, no not prairie anyway down there in Burlingame right on the corner, I cant quite think of the name of the street right now, Beverly I think it is, or right near there, and he had a muck farm, a truck farm, and he would pick fresh vegetables and stuff, and he had a big truck, and he would load it up with ice and put all these vegetables on it and he would go through the neighborhood and sell these fresh vegetables. And you could buy bunches, you could buy a watermelon that was as big as you were you know, YAX: Mm hmm ROBSON: For 15 cents. you could buy a dozen ears of corn for 15 cents. You could buy lettuce, either leaf lettuce or head lettuce, either one for leaf lettuce was maybe 4 cents, and head lettuce was maybe a nickel. Or you could get he had everything. He had fresh beets, he had just you name it, he had it. He had Carrots, radishes YAX: Right ROBSON: You know the whole thing. And it was all fresh. And you, and he would come down the street you know, and the women and other, everybody would come out you know and buy stuff, [laughter], and he’d go on until he sold all of his produce for that day. And that’s how I mean that’s kinda how he got started. He, he, he evolved, I mean he had several boys, and a couple of daughters I think, and they, they farmed the land for him and stuff. And their boys, I know a couple of their boys and they all turned out to be very hard workers. he they, I cant say that they had a lot. YAX: Mm hmm ROBSON: but they were all very, very hard workers. Most of them spent a good portion of their life with produce like that, bringing it around to the neighborhood. So that’s all still part of, of the post war period, right after, a few years after the war. YAX: Right. ROBSON: Before things really started to change. And, and you know or big time. It was, you went through a lot of other changes and stuff in there politically and so forth but it was, it was a whole lot different then. you didn’t have anywhere near the crime that we have today, mainly because I think of two things. One everything you wanted you could get at a reasonable price. And, and two I don’t think you had to be, everybody was equal. You know, they didn’t have, you weren’t you’re neighbors had the same thing that you did. Ah yeah maybe they, they saved their money a little bit differently and maybe they were, they might dress a little bit better, but not that much, you know. and their job might be a little better, but it was all basically on the same plane, YAX: Mm hmm. Page 7 �ROBSON: Same scale, same level. So you, so you you were all pretty equal, so you didn’t need to steal from anybody, or, or anything like that. Its not to say that you weren’t mischievous [laughter], but I, but yeah. I and my neighbor boy buddies, we got in our share of trouble for doing things we shouldn’t have. But the for a ling time Wyoming was a township. And so it didn’t, it, its, its police department was a branch of the Kent County sheriffs department. So even though for a long time it wasn’t a for, it was quite a few years before they kinda can honestly say they got their own police force. But then, I was away when I graduated in ’59, and then shortly there after I went to J C for a short period of time and then I went into service. And then it was while I was in the service that Wyoming incorporated into a city. and then, a lot of things changed then obviously. a lot of the, the neighborhoods that were individual neighborhoods now were all one, and if you go down on Chicago Drive between Burlingame and Godfrey or between Burlingame yeah, well, actually it, its not just between Burlingame and Godfrey, but if you, you start at Burlingame pretty much and go East on Chicago drive, you can see what was there. A lot, every, practically every business that is there today was there when I was a kid, but it might have been something different. some places there’s a used car lot that used to be a standard gas station. There’s a barber shop where there used to be a Clark gas station. There’s a restaurant where there used to be a dairy and I don’t know, what’s in that big, at the big store there that used to be a general store that was run by a woman and it was like a nickel and dime place for us. We’d go in there you know and if you had 10 cents in your pocket you’d go down there and buy yourself a bottle of pop or something. We used to sit on her front step and go in and buy a vernors ginger ale and see who could shoot it the farthest. [Laughter]. But because it was so carbonated. YAX: Yeah. ROBSON: like down through, you could go down through there and you could see the different buildings. There’s, there was one place that used to make donuts or something like that, I think it’s an awning shop now. There’s another gas station that does something different. There’s a place that used to be a bike shop that I don’t know what they do there anymore. There’s a body shop that used to I don’t know what they do anymore either but right next door used to be a restaurant, well that’s gone now and there’s a funeral home that took up that whole property. then beyond the funeral home there’s a drug store that’s been there for years and its gone form one thing to another. and as you go on down through there and then you work you’re way down Grandville Avenue up Grandville Avenue, and then down into the city of Grand Rapids. Matter of fact at Clyde Park is where the city of Grand Rapids and the city of Wyoming meet. YAX: Oh ok. ROBSON: And so there on the corner used to be a a hardware store that it was the dpiest, junkiest hardware store you’d ever seen in your life. But if you wanted anything, if they didn’t have it upstairs they would find it in the basement. and it burned to the ground one time. And then behind them used to be Calvinators, which was, they used to make stoves, refrigerators, YAX: Oh ok. Page 8 �ROBSON: And things like that. and they that was a big company in there. Matter of fact for the Lee school district that was one of their big tax people, that was one of the properties that helped Lee school for many, many years and then they had Calvinators kind of fell on hard times, and then the main building, which was about 4 stories high they caught on fire, actually it was set on fire by, by somebody living in there or something, and it burned down, they tore it down so now if you go down there there’s, there’s quite a big vacant area. But some of the smaller parts of the factory are back in there and they’re all individual buildings now, but they’re all still parts of the original factory. and then right across the street there’s a big cement building, it looks like a bank, but that used to be the corporate headquarters for Calvinator in there. I don’t know what’s in there now. But there’s, it’s changed around there a lot. There’s some stores in there now and the used to be up on Grandville Avenue it was you’re white middle class was most of it. And it’s now changed quite a bit too. There’s a lot of Hispanic up in that area. there’s also some, some of your the blacks are up in that area. and that kinda continues on pretty much all the way down towards Grand Rapids and to the east toward what used to be South High School, which is now also a building that, that was a public school but, it has some department of help of some form in there you know that take care of families and stuff like that in there. and they do do some educating there too I understand but I don’t know how much. My, my cousins graduated from there. YAX: Oh ok. ROBSON: my mother went to school there. That’s what used to be South High School. Matter of fact I have a cousin who when he graduated he was the last class that was there. And, they had a chimney right, and this chimney it was a tradition for many years for the senior class to write their class year on it. Well when my cousin Russell was there they cancelled that. But somehow his graduating nber got written up there on the chimney. And nobody knew how it got there. YAX: Hmm. ROBSON: So Russell I’m gonna tell on you, [laughs]. My cousin was the one that did it. He went up there and painted it [laughter]. But, he, he he had 3 brothers, and a sister. they were my mother’s nieces and nephews, my cousins. 4 of the smartest kids I’ve ever known in my life. first of all my uncle was extremely smart. Unfortunately he ruined his life because of alcohol, which was too bad. His wife was just an absolute genius. I, I think that any, any, I mean she was just incredibly smart, and fortunately all the kids gained that. to be honest with you I don’t know where any of them are today. I know that they’re all still alive. There’s one of them lived in Hudson, er Byron center. The last I heard my, my cousin Russell I think lived, was retired from the navy and he was living I think in California or Florida. I don’t know, maybe he had a place in both. And I don’t know where the other two boys went. One used to live out on 68th street someplace, but he moved so I don’t know where he went. so I, I don’t keep real track of my family but I just know that, that most of them are middle income people. YAX: Do you keep track with your sisters? ROBSON: Yeah, yeah. Cuz they live close by. YAX: Ok. Page 9 �ROBSON: I have one that lives in, well, well, with one exception, which is my sister Martha. She lives in, in Florida. But occasionally we call once back and forth on the phone or something. and she is, she is actually my father’s daughter she is not my mother’s daughter. YAX: Mm ROBSON: and she was given up for adoption by her birth mother. And the thing about it is, is that she lived right here in Grand Rapids for a nber of years, and I even knew some of the same people she did. then my two older sisters, one lives in, in Hudsonville, the other one has passed away. But, they were my mother’s daughters. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: and then my two younger sisters and myself we all had the same mother and father. And so there’s quite an intersession of families in there. my, my sisters, the two older sisters they’re father was in vaudeville. and he knew all of the big names in vaudeville. But, I, I tried to talk to my oldest sister and she, about what, and she was pretty young then so she didn’t, she couldn’t tell me a whole lot about them. Which I, I found, which too bad. Because a lot of the people that, that he knew, I mean I’ve heard them myself you know. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: And some of them might be even heard, they’re, they’re entertaining you know. Fred Allen for one. Jimmy Durante for another. YAX: Oh wow. ROBSON: and a lot of the people that went through vaudeville George Burns a lot of the bands, I don’t remember all of the band people, but he, he, he knew a lot of the musicians at that time too. so he, he had you know, quite some connections. And, so it would have been, I wish I could have gotten or my sisters would have gotten more information you know, but that’s the way it goes. But just knowing that, that they knew some of the, some of the people that were the starters of the new, YAX: Yeah. ROBSON: Business of show business is quite, quite a shock when I knew about it you know, and I found it to be quite quite nice. quite interesting. but the family as a whole, my family, myself I’m middle class, by no means am I rich. I got some money yeah, I worked for a long time to get that money but I got some money. I have two daughters that I, I help out quite a bit. I would have had more money if I didn’t have to do that, [laughter] but, but I consider myself the dad and that’s what I have to do. You know, I have to help my family. I’m divorced. My, my ex wife’s family is all middle class farmers by nature most of them. They were Dutch they can, they can trace themselves to Dutch immigrants, from from Holland. I don’t know a lot about them. I just know that, I know her mother and father’s backgrounds a little bit. And we had a lot in common, you know as far as the background and stuff goes. her brothers were very smart, all of them. her sister who had a birth defect but it didn’t get in the way of raising three boys, and teaching school. she was a very good schoolteacher she retired from the white hall Montague area. and Page 10 �she just passed away here a few months ago. But the boys, one of her sons is extremely smart and he has a very good job writing programs for computers. He’s self-employed. she has another son that is, he is my daughters cousins that he lives in Florida with his wife. She is into the medical you know like elderly, helping the elderly you know as a nurses, as a nurse. and David is a, is very handy with his hands. He can do a lot of things, but, he suffers severely from arthritis. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: Which is too bad. and their youngest brother lives up around the White hall area, even today and he has a good job at some company up there, I don’t know which one it is anymore but he has a good job and his wife is a schoolteacher. their they have some other cousins that, one of them I forget what he does but he’s got a, it’s a good white collar job, it’s in an office. He has another one that, that is very artistically inclined. For a long time he went out to Connecticut or somewhere, yeah I think it was Connecticut, he built furniture. YAX: Oh. ROBSON: as a request. You know specialties. You know one of a kind. U, he built some stuff for his mother and dad that was incredible. Just, and he, he graduated from what’s that design school here in Grand Rapids? YAX: Kendall ROBSON: Kendall. and he’s the one that doesn’t let any grass grow under his feet. [laughter]. He’s something else. [Interruption]. ROBSON: Sorry bout that. YAX: it’s ok [laughter]. ROBSON: but he, and he, he is moved back to Michigan now but he still works, or no he still lives out east but he, someplace, I don’t know. But anyway he still works with furniture, but he works more on a, on a, in a design portion of it now rather than a building part of it. And then their sister, their oldest sister, she graduated from nursing school and then she went on and got a masters degree in nursing I guess it was and then she, she does transcripts at home. taking and correcting insurance papers and, and medical papers so that the wording and stuff, and she does that at home. she has, she was married, she had two boys and now I think she’s got a, I don’t know if she’s married again but, I know she has a new, a new friend. but her mother and dad, he worked for Consumers, and Mary was a nurse. YAX: Wow. ROBSON: So you know, but, out of all of, all of these people that are, I’m related to, we’re all pretty much at the same level as far as we’re in the middle class I got one cousin that plays in a Dallas symphony but what his younger brother does I have no idea. but I know he has, he has a family and he works but I don’t know where it is. I’ve had I can’t say that, that they’re, there isn’t, I know there’s some Page 11 �parts of my family that have money, but they don’t flaunt it. They don’t you know, they use it for whatever and but, we all pretty much stay about the same and I, I tribute that to the way that most of us were brought up. We were brought up in that middle class white neighborhood you know. I remember going down to Ann Arbor visit my sister down when my brother in law was going to the University of Michigan. and that’s where I came in contact with my first black people on a daily basis. There was kids down there that we used to play on the playground with all the time. Come time to go home they’d go their way, we’d go ours. Next day we’d come back, and we’d play on the playground. YAX: How old were you at this point? ROBSON: At that time I must have been 8, 9 years old. but, I never, I don’t ever remember racial things being spoken in my family. or disregard for anybody. we had my, my, one of my older sisters, one of her best friends was a black girl that lived out West of, out off of West Chicago Drive. The street isn’t even there and neither are any of the 6 houses that were on that street. [laughter]. But they all used to be, when I, when I delivered the paper, the Grand Rapids press, they were all my customers. And I knew this family really well. They were really nice people. so you know, racially I didn’t, I was really quite ignorant about what was going on around me. we had some black kids at school. I didn’t, one of them was in the band played a saxophone I thought, and he was really good. I don’t, I remember when we had minstrel shows at, in high school. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: but I don’t remember being actively aware of racial discrimination in those days. it just never occurred to me. or I don’t, and I don’t know if my parents were or not. I don’t know cuz I, like I say it was never and all my sisters and everything it was never discussed. They had, they had black, a black girlfriend. She, she had been to our house so it, I, that portion of relationships never bothered me until I got to be much older. then I found out what was going on and studied it more and, and I think I waffled between being a racist and a non racist like everybody else did and started, until I got to the point where I could really start rationalizing what was going on and so, well for heavens sakes all this time I thought we were already equal. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: And it didn’t turn out that way obviously. Ha still hasn’t as far as that goes. But it, it was, it was I mean I played football with, with guys that were, we played against at the time we played against Reese Puffer from Muskegon area. YAX: Yeah ROBSON: And at that time Reese Puffer was primarily a black school. It was another football team. We didn’t care what color they were, we went out there and played football. YAX: So you had a mixed high school? Or ROBSON: Yeah it was. It only, was only one black family but they had I think they had, it was the Jones family. They had a daughter, and I think the two boys. Page 12 �YAX: Mm hmm ROBSON: And that was primarily it. Now the school is, is integrated with Hispanic, black, everything now. I think. I don’t know, I haven’t been over there in years but, it’s pretty much integrated to, to all of that today, that, a lot like I said earlier a lot of that, that area now is Hispanic and black mix. so that’s, that’s in the school over there now but my kids are, are both of my daughters went to Rogers and they, that was a mixed school. and I don’t know that they had a lot of problems there. Matter of fact one of the stars of the Rogers football team when Becky was a senior was a black kid. YAX: Hmm. ROBSON: and, and I know that, that he was, he was thought of very highly by everybody. I don’t know if it was because, if it was more of his talents or whatever, but he was a good kid. I mean I met him. I talked to him. He was a good kid. We had, then both of my daughters were in the band and they had mixed races in the band. and the black kids that they had in the band, I, were really good people. matter of fact I was in the band in high school, I played football, and ran track and stuff, and, but we had a, I remember one time we had three rivers band came up here. and we were gonna march in the tulip festival and enter into a competition at the, the Holt College football field over there after the parade and they were too. And it just so happened that we found out later on that we were both in the same flight. And but they needed, they were gonna come up here and they played a concert at our school and they, they were a pretty good-sized band, and they needed places to stay. Well at that time we had a house trailer YAX: Mm hmm ROBSON: For going camping with and we had all kinds of room. I mean that house that my parents lived in was pretty close to a hotel [laughter]. I mean we had, I don’t remember how many kids we had there. But three rivers had several blacks in their, in their band. And some of them didn’t come up here YAX: Hmm. ROBSON: But one of them did and he stayed with my parents. they didn’t have an assigned family for him and my mother says he will stay with us, and he did. The kid was more fun than you could shake a stick at. He played piano by ear, YAX: Wow. ROBSON: And my mother had a piano in the house so we had a great time. We had all of these kids, all of these girls, we had some of the, some of the kids from my daughter, er my sisters classes along with these girls, you know to help show em things and we had a great time. and this, out of all the kids that came up here the black boy was the only one that came over to my mother and father and hugged my mother and shook my fathers hand and thanked them for the hospitality. The rest of them said thanks but it was like you and I would say thanks to somebody. YAX: Right. Page 13 �ROBSON: But he went out and he, he emotionally got involved with them by shaking their hands and hugging my mother. And that was quite a bit. Quite something. but it still didn’t, it didn’t dawn on me personally that there were still problems. YAX: Yeah ROBSON: You know. Until we got into the what, the ‘60’s and stuff when the marches and things started to take place and, and it, it, it came around then and I was, by that time I was in the service and that. But we didn’t even seem to have that much problem in the service. [clears throat]. Our ship when I was aboard ship, we had blacks and Hispanics, and whites, YAX: Mm hmm ROBSON: And Jews, and everybody else. We’re all kinda you know, here’s Heinz 57 variety and we had one, one goal and that was to protect the United States. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: You know. And so I didn’t think too much of it. I didn’t really didn’t think too much of it until after, actually I came home from California. Is when I seem to, maybe because it was, more people were talking about it. I had a supervisor at work make, make a, a remark one time in a meeting about equality and he said that in a meeting that he was in someone asked that if if I was a, if we were asked to work with a black guy you know that’s the way it had to be but they said what if a black guy refuses to work with a white guy. And my supervisor said well then you discuss it, and he used the n word. And and that was the first time that I can honestly say that I got kicked between the eyes when that, when I really started to pay attention to what was going on. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: but even then I can't say that, that we had a problem with it blatantly, in other words out in the open, but it was there. it was obvious. Certain things that would happen at work you could see it. But what you did is like everybody else at the time, you just went about doing your job and let, YAX: Yeah ROBSON: Kind of hope that if you closed your eyes to it, it’d go away, you know. YAX: So how old were you when you went into the service? ROBSON: 18. YAX: So just right after high school? [Mood changes with change of topic from childhood to military] ROBSON: Yeah, yeah. I, I went in, I went, well, I was, yeah, yeah cuz I graduated on my 18th birthday, so I I went to J C for a short time to the first marking period. Well I played football down there too and then the grades came out and then I decided I wasn’t really going to be much good at college [laughter], at Page 14 �this point in time so, a friend of mine he and I, and he, I used to run against him in track. He went to Rogers but he was a friend of mine. [clears throat]. And we went down and signed up in the navy together. YAX: Why did you choose the navy? ROBSON: Well the Air Force wouldn’t take us cuz they wanted college education, YAX: Mmm ROBSON: And neither one of us wanted to be a ground pounder and neither one of us wanted to be a marine, so we just decided we’d go in the navy. [laughter]. And when we talked to the navy recruiter he made good on some things that we could go to school and stuff and get some education there too also. Not realizing that what he meant was they were navy schools for navy work. But still, they were good schools and he, he guaranteed that to us. YAX: Mm hmm ROBSON: And the other ones didn’t do that. So, with the exception of the Air Force that they wanted you to have a four-year degree. But, and I understand. But, so we went in the navy. He ended up on nuclear submarines. YAX: Ooh ROBSON: on the Polaris submarines and I ended up on the ships that look for submarines [laughter]. And so that’s the way, and you know I got, I got a lot of electronic schools and training while I was in the service leadership schools and stuff like that, that were valuable for military and stuff. and then and he got a lot of computer training, working with the, the polar, Polaris missiles and stuff. YAX: Mm hmm ROBSON: So he, he had he had a good education and I, and I got a good background to do what I did when I came back and joined a phone company. And he, he ended up last I knew about Ron, he was working for IBM. Now where he is today I don’t know. I haven’t, I haven’t heard from him in a long, long time. YAX: So how long did you serve in the navy? ROBSON: 4 years. 4 years active duty and then 2 years in the reserves but that was inactive reserve so I didn’t go to meetings or anything. YAX: Oh ok. ROBSON: The contract that I signed was a 6-year contract so I had to, I had to decide how, what I wanted to do you know. YAX: So that was early ‘60’s? ROBSON: That was 1962 through 64 was my active duty, Page 15 �YAX: So nothing, ROBSON: So I was officially out of the army, er out of the navy in 1966. In February ’66 is when my, is when my obligation to the navy ended. YAX: So there was nothing going on then was there? like, ROBSON: Yeah, there was. YAX: Was there, was there Korea or Vietnam? ROBSON: well I was in when, when Kennedy was killed, YAX: Oh! ROBSON: Matter of fact we were out in the pacific on an operation when the word came over that Kennedy had died and had been killed, had been assassinated and that a radio tower had been blown up in Arizona. And the, the group that we were working with were given immediate orders to head for the Panama Canal. YAX: Ooh. ROBSON: And we just made a u-turn and headed straight south. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: by the time we got on station and got everything organized and everything, word had come that there was a single person that shot Kennedy and that that person had been killed. and then, but they, what we did is they asked us to stay on location for I think it was 32 hours, 2 days roughly. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: A little over 2 days, day and a half, something like that. And so we did. And then we went back to our exercises and stuff. But, we immediately set to getting the ship war ready. Cuz we, no we didn’t have any, you know, the, the group did not know all of the details and so it just became straight go to this and be ready for anything. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: So that’s what we did. And that was kind of nerve-racking. but the ship that I was on had been blown up during world war II, I mean it had hit a mine so. But it was ok. It floated. [laughter]. But YAX: You’d think they’d get new boats for that. ROBSON: Yeah. No they rebuilt this one. [laughter]. Put a new bow on it and everything. But yeah that was and then I think, [pause], I was stationed in Pearl Harbor when the first rangers quote advisors went to Vietnam. YAX: Mm hmm. Page 16 �ROBSON: These guys were, were something else. They were, they were, I remember seeing some of them go over on the, on the beach of liberty and stuff and you could comb your hair in the buttons on their, their uniforms. These guys were spit and polished. And they never went anyplace alone. There was at least two or maybe three of em together at all times. YAX: Hmm. ROBSON: but they were, they were the first Green Beret’s that went over there and we, I was, at the time I was stationed at the submarine base and 5:00 in the morning you’d hear those clowns running through the base [makes sounds to imitate the running], you know doing their calsenic’s or running through the base. But, they were good guys. They really were. All of them were, had to rank a sergeant. YAX: Mm ROBSON: And but they were really good guys. Yeah, you go to talk to these guys and you could talk to them anytime you wanted to, you know. if we’d meet, if we’d meet them on the, on the beach or something we’d sit there and I’d, I don’t know about the guys with me but I always liked talking to them, finding out where they were from and stuff. And, these guys were, were good guys. They were they knew that, where they were going, they knew what their job was gonna be and, and they knew that some of them probably wouldn’t come home. But they they were really good people. and they were very military people. I’ll say that much for them. [laughter]. But they were, their uniforms were spotless. I mean absolutely spotless. You couldn’t find a lint on their uniforms anyplace. Their boots, you could see your face in them, in their boots. YAX: My goodness. ROBSON: But they were, they were really, really squared away people. and they didn’t get in any trouble nobody gave them any trouble either. but they were good people. YAX: So you said you were in, ROBSON: I was stationed in, YAX: California? ROBSON: California when, when Kennedy got killed and I was stationed in Hawaii when Vietnam started. YAX: Now did you ever have to go over to Vietnam? ROBSON: No. No. No. when I was in Hawaii we went to what we called west pack. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: Which was Western Pacific and that included a 6 month tour over there where we would go to, where did we go? We went to the Philippines, we stopped at the Philippines. We stopped at Hong Kong and then Japan. And and then back home to Hawaii. Well, I was also in when they did the atomic bomb test. When I was stationed in Hawaii they did the atomic bomb test in the South Pacific and blew up an island. Page 17 �YAX: Did you get to see it? ROBSON: Oh yeah. That is one thing that having seen an atomic bomb go off, is that I don’t ever, ever, ever want to see anyone, another one go off. I saw 2 or 3 of them go off and the best place to be if one goes off is right there underneath it because you won’t even know what hit you. It’ll, you’ll be a cinder in a blink of an eye. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: [pause]. The first one we saw was set off at night and we were, I don’t know how far away we were. I know we were beyond the horizon. Horizons are 10 yard, 10 miles. YAX: Ok. ROBSON: Cuz that’s, the earth curves every, about every 10 miles. And, when that mushroom cloud came up over that horizon, first of all it was one of the most spectacular, and beautiful things I ever saw in my life. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: The colors in it were so vivid, it was just hard to explain. And then you think about, that was the energy that was released, I mean that wasn’t all the energy that was released. That’s just the energy that burn up. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: it was scary. It really was. It was scary. they dropped, the biggest one that they dropped turned out some of the lights in Honolulu, from the flash. It was in the newspaper out there that, that some of the traffic, er some of the lights were affected by it, which is incredible that man could make something like that. And the last one that, that went off they dropped from a B 52, and it went off 500 feet above the ground. YAX: hmm. ROBSON: And, when they let us come out topside it looked like daylight but, it was green. The, the color was green. Cuz it was overcast. YAX: Mm hmm. ROBSON: And it actually was about 4:30 in the morning. [laughs] YAX: Wow. ROBSON: There wasn’t supposed to be any sun. And then it slowly faded away, and I mean really, it was, it faded away so slowly that your eyes didn’t really realize what was happening. YAX: Mm hmm. Page 18 �ROBSON: until all of a sudden it was dark again. And, we were quite a ways away from that but the first one was enough for me. I, I know, I know I’ve, I’ve thought about it many time. About an atomic bomb, and every time I see the ones that were dropped during World War II I, this is gonna be hard to explain but I, I think how lucky the people were that were at ground zero versus the people that were 10, 15, 20 miles away. YAX: Right. ROBSON: Because those people are still suffering YAX: Yeah. ROBSON: From the radiation burns and stuff. [phone call] YAX: So why were they setting them off, I mean if it was after World War II? ROBSON: In World War II they were setting them off to end the war. YAX: Right. ROBSON: They were setting them off to make the Japanese surrender really. YAX: Yeah. ROBSON: Because if the allies had invaded Japan the loss of life would have just been catastrophic. And, Truman made the decision to drop the bomb, and they dropped the first one but the Japanese wouldn’t give up so they dropped the second one, and the Japanese instantly decided that enough is enough. YAX: Yeah. ROBSON: And that’s why. And then, in the sixties when they were doing it, when they were testing them, it was because it was before the nuclear test ban treaties and stuff went in. YAX: Oh, OK. ROBSON: So everybody was testing. And then we tested some out in Utah and some of the other places in the silos, and in underground bunkers. They were blowing them up under there. But there underground, less radioactivity was released into the air. YAX: Yeah. ROBSON: And they dropped a couple of hydrogen bombs also. But the atomic bomb, people talk about it like it’s a pill. And it is. It is a very deadly pill. Like I say, the best place to be if one goes off is right at ground zero. Because at least it will be over for you, but the people who are out at the fringes will suffer for years and years and years. As a matter of fact, the one island, Christmas Island, out there where they had people that used to live, and they moved the people off the island to another island. And they Page 19 �won’t let them go back there because it’s still radioactive. And the half-life of radioactivity is twenty-five thousand years. That’s the half-life. So when you reach twenty-five thousand years, that’s half-life you’ve another twenty-five thousand for another half-life, and another twenty-five thousand for another half-life. In other words, nobody will live long enough to see that radioactivity be nothing. YAX: Wow. ROBSON: That’s why it’s so dangerous, that’s why it’s terrible. Nasty, nasty stuff. But yet, you can harness it and do good things with it. But at the same time it’s just [moment of silence] Yeah every time I think about it I don’t wanna see one go off. YAX: So do you disagree with the decision to drop them on Japan, or what are your thoughts on that? Since you’ve seen what it can do. ROBSON: Well, what I saw in the sixties, that one bomb was more powerful than both of those put together in Japan. However, the bomb that they dropped on Japan wouldn’t fit in this room. YAX: Right. ROBSON: It was hungous. Because of all of the electronics and everything that had to go inside of this, in order to set it off and to get the chain reaction going inside of it. And those bombs never touched the ground. They went off above the ground. Because it sent the force down and then the shock waves went out. YAX: Oh, OK. ROBSON: And everything went with it. I mean that’s why, if you’ve ever seen some of the videos from the cameras where they had a simulated village, and they dropped on and it looks like a wind storm. And that’s all of the radioactivity, carried with all of the power of this thing. And, it just blows things over. I guess, I mean I was just a child at that time, when they dropped the bomb. I know that I had a brother-in-law that was in World War II, I had an uncle that was in during World War II, both of them came home. My uncle trained pilots, even though he was an enlisted man, he trained pilots. In propeller planes, because they didn’t have jets to speak of. And my brother-in-law worked in an ammunition depot. Well he only had one eye, he had a glass one. He got shot by his dad hunting, it was a hunting accident. And he accidentally got shot by his dad and it put his eye out. So they couldn’t send him overseas so they kept him on, and I had a brother-in-law who served in Korea, and he was on a gun crew. He was a spotter for a gun crew. They were all killed except him and the other guy who was him down below. And they said he was a different person when he came home, cause I didn’t know him previously. I had a brother-in-law who was in the air force during Korea. But he had a desk job. But it was handling important stuff. And I had a brother-in-law who was in during Korea, or just towards the end of Korea. And he was at a supply depot, because that’s what his background was in. And he was good at it and they needed people who were good at that for logistics and stuff. My cousin, that I told you about from high school, he was an officer in communications and he had a top secret clearance. And when Vietnam broke out he was called back to active duty. And that was when he retired, he was from the Navy. These guys, none of them had, none of them, witnessed an atom bomb. I don’t know all Page 20 �the truth about the atom bomb in World War II. I do know that one of the biggest reasons was to end the war, they knew it would end the war. It killed thousands of people, innocent people. And it maimed even more. Ground zero is still there, they haven’t restored it. It looks just like it does in the pictures. It did end the war that’s what they wanted them to do. That’s what both bombs did. They ended the war. One of the stories was that because the allies were getting closer and closer to Japan, they had pretty well beat up their air force, and had pretty well beat up their navy. But they had hundreds of thousands of people that they could put in as infantryman. And the casualties to invade Japan, like I said, based on history, would have been catastrophic for both sides. It probably would have gone on longer, obviously, if they hadn’t dropped the bomb. But the allies probably would have won out. Because we had everything the Japanese didn’t have. We had more resources than they did. Based on history, I didn’t have to make that decision, but I’m sorry, to a point, that it was the United States that used it the first time, but it was the United States that used it the first time. Because if any of these other dictators or countries that have or want to build a nuclear bomb want to see what it does, look at the films. As far as a nuclear proliferation goes, I agree with that. I mean we have guns that can shoot an atomic bomb shell fifty, sixty miles or a hundred miles. I mean it’s stupid. We got ships that can launch thirty-two missiles. Each one of them could be equipped if we had to. It’s stupid, what do you gain by blowing up half the world? Then you can’t live in it anyway. You know? So you go the biggest and the loudest toys, big deal. I don’t see a single conqueror that wanted to rule the world ever succeed. I don’t think any of them succeeded. And had they, the Roman Empire was probably the closest anybody came because they controlled so much of Europe. And look what happened, they folded from the inside. The British Empire, for years the sun never sat on the British Empire. It does now. YAX: [laughs] ROBSON: Because most of those countries are now independent. So you don’t gain anything by ruling other people. I don’t see any positive stuff coming out of it. All I can see, is thank God that the bombs that we did drop are not the bombs we have today. YAX: Yeah. ROBSON: So you know we got ships floatin’ out there all over the world. We got airplanes, we got so many ways of delivering atomic weapons. Just conventional bombs, for crying out loud, will kill hundreds or thousands of people. We don’t need atomic weapons to do that. And the fact that people, Japan is a good example of that when they’re, when that powerhouse got hit by the tsunami. We really don’t know all there is to know about atomic energy. We know it can be useful. But at the same time, it’s kinda like how long before it turns around and bites you. It’s kinda like a rattlesnake, you can pick it up for a long time but eventually you’re gonna get bit. And then you hear that the United States has one hundred and four of them built over faults, and they knew the faults were there when they built them. What does this tell you? You know? The newest one that was built, that I know of, in Michigan was up north near Charlevoix. What is it Flat Rock or whatever they call it? Little Rock. The other one, they tore it down because it was too small to serve the area, plus it was one of the first ones built. And it was falling apart anyway. So they built a newer one, bigger one, more efficient one, to feed a bigger area up there. A B-52 crashed in Lake Michigan, making a bomb run. On that one up there. Strategic air command used to practice bomb runs, and it crashed up there off of Lake Michigan. The said there Page 21 �were no nuclear weapons on board that plane. Nobody ever bothered to argue about it. But they did get all the weaponry off the plane. Even though it was laying in the water. So they’re vulnerable, you can’t protect them all. South Haven, for crying out loud, it’s built right on the beach for Pete’s sake. YAX: [laughs] ROBSON: The reason why is it was built so close to the water was just for that reason, it was close to the water. YAX: Right. ROBSON: They could pump the fresh water in, keep it cool, pump the hot water back out. Well they’re doing the same thing with the power plant over by Grand Haven. The Conser’s plant over there, it’s a coal operated plant, but they’repumping water in, and they’repumping water out. And it’s changing the environment in the Great Lakes. You have the big one up by Ludington up there, where they pump all of the water up into the reservoir, which is humongous, it’s one giant lake. But it goes up through big screws, kills all kinds of fish. And then when they want to generate electricity they release it and let it flow down, spin the turbines and generate electricity. We have power that comes from up there. So we got a lot of things we got to try and answer. But nuclear bombs are probably the one answer I don’t want to see anybody use. YAX: So what are your thoughts compared to when you went into the service to now, on the U.S. as a country? Did you have more patriotism when you went into the service, and then lost it as the U.S. has developed? ROBSON: No. YAX: Same thing? ROBSON: I don’t feel any different. I mean, it’s like anything I’ve done in my life, there are always things that I don’t like. Decisions that people have made that I don’t like. When you’re in the military you may not like the decisions, but you kind of, sort of, have no choice but to follow the laws. YAX: OK. ROBSON: And especially if you’re in the navy, the shortest distance to land from that ship is ten miles at any given time. And it is usually straight down. So you don’t have a lot of choice[Both laugh.] You know? But, I get very upset when I see Americans destroy the American Flag. I get very upset when I see Americans cuss the government. I get very upset when I see people, in our own country, disrespect our president and even our congress. And I don’t like anything that’s going on right now, but that doesn’t mean I have to disrespect the people that are there. And I probably do. [Both laugh.] By some of the things I say, you know? But, basically it’s not the people, it’s the position that they hold is what deserves the respect, you know? The president of the United States, that job doesn’t come with a hand book. Congress, to be a senator doesn’t come with a handbook. To be a representative doesn’t come with a handbook per say. But, what it comes with is an expectancy to be an adult at all times. Page 22 �YAX: Yeah. ROBSON: You know? And to understand, to make it a point to understand what the constitution says what you can do and can’t do, what the laws read. There was a discussion the other night on T.V. about when Ford pardoned Nixon. I understand why he did it, I didn’t agree with it, but I understand why he did it. The thing is, is that there is nobody that I know of, in this country, that’s a citizen or a non-citizen, that is above any of those laws in this country. I don’t care how much money they have, or how little money they have, nobody is above the laws of this country in my opinion. And I feel the same way as I always have, it’s my country, if I want to kick it I’ll kick it, but at the same time, don’t try and take it away from me. And that’s kind of the way I felt when I was in the service, it’s my ship, I live on it. And I’ll fight with the guys aboard my ship, but if you fight with one of the guys aboard my ship, you’re going to fight with me. YAX: Right. ROBSON: I think that’s the way it should be. I don’t expect everybody to like what’s going on, but I expect everybody to be respectful of the people. Just like I don’t like what the cops are doing, or the local governments are doing about these people that are, peacefully, demonstrating. Using tear gas and things to get people to move. I also don’t think that if they were told “you can’t be in this section of town because it hinders the business of the overall town.” YAX: Like downtown? ROBSON: Yeah. I don’t think they, well I mean, in some places like in Chicago they used tear gas and stuff. YAX: Oh, like the recent protests? ROBSON: Yeah. They used the recent protests because they I agree that there was a lot more that should have been done, when the crash came. There is obviously some things that were not done according to Hoyle. They may not have been outright crimes. But they definitely should have been looked into, to make sure that what they did was out of stupidity, and not out of want and disrespect for the law. That any one of those CEO’s, or CFO’s, companies, any one of them I think should have been taken out of office. And I think some of those big banks should have been broken up. They broke up AT&T because they were afraid of AT&T, they were making a billion dollars every quarter. They were huge, and they broke them up. But, they made kind of a mistake. They made seven AT&T’s. [Both laugh.] ROBSON: And they didn’t put anything in the restrictions about getting back together. In other words, buying each other out to make them bigger. And that’s what has happened, you don’t have the seven operating companies, per say, anymore. Ameritech, or SBC as they were then, bought AT&T for sixtyfour billion dollars or something like that, it was a steal. Because we paid four hundred million dollars, or billion dollars whatever it was, for Southeast Bell, just to get the cellular part of it. Because that’s the way the deal was. And also, the CEO, at the time, of SBC was a true in the wool AT&T man. And at the time the present management of AT&T was running them into the ground, and he couldn’t stand it. And Page 23 �that’s why we bought AT&T. And that still isn’t complete, that’s still going on. In fact, I used to laugh when I looked at my pay check because it said up in the corner “Michigan Bell”. [Both laugh] And it was drawn out of a bank in Louisiana. But what it comes down to is that, all of the franchises and stuff were in Michigan Bell’s name. Even though you change the name of the corporation, you still have all of these individual things that don’t change because it would cost too much and take too much, you wouldn’t be gaining anything anyway. But, I always used to laugh and say “ah I’m still working for Michigan Bell”. YAX: So, going back to like service and stuff, a couple years it was really big, people protesting service peoples funerals. ROBSON: Well, that particular group, I don’t know if they had any of their members die in the service or if their members had objections to going into service, I don’t know. YAX: Well what they were protesting… ROBSON: I didn’t agree. I knew what they were protesting. They were saying God was allowing Americans to die because of homosexuality and other things, but I think homosexuality was the biggest thing they were using at the time, or was one of the things. And I’m thinking to myself, “what’s that got to do with it?” But, I don’t, as far as the first amendment goes, the freedom of speech and the right to assemble, yeah OK do it. But remember that you and I have a right to bury your dead in a peaceful matter, as much as I have a right to demonstrate. But, even if I demonstrate I don’t have the right to interfere with what you do. Because then I have crossed a line. Or vice versa. And when you’ve crossed that line, then I think it’s time that you, that one should have legal sanctions. I don’t care how much noise they make, as long as, if they have got to stay on that side of the side walk. I don’t like it, I don’t like it at all. I think it shows total disrespect, and I think what it is, it’s one man it’s another Waco, Texas all over again. The way I look at it. YAX: another what? ROBSON: Another Waco. Where they had the one guy, he got all of these people in there and then the house caught on fire and they all burned up; in Waco, Texas. YAX: When was that? ROBSON: Just, not too long ago. A few years ago. YAX: Oh, I don’t watch the news very often [laughs]. ROBSON: I forget what this guy’s name was. But anyway, he thought that he was the messiah or something, was God or something, and he got all of these people in there and all of these girls in there and was having relationships with young girls, and all the children that were in there. But they had fifty caliber machine guns and they were armed to the hilt. Well I don’t know that the people in this church are that way, but this is the same guy that was going to burn the Quran. This group that’s been protesting the cemetery, or the funeral, and he was the same guy that was going to burn the Quran. And he didn’t do it. I think there was a lot of pressure put on him not to do it, and because he thinks that these people are all heathens and everything else. I don’t agree with the war, I didn’t agree with it Page 24 �when Bush started it. I thought it was a case of trying to save face because his father was, when his father was in war he was forced out, you know, and he didn’t finish the job or whatever.And personally I’m getting a little sick and tired of the U.S. going into these limited wars and letting the people in Washington run them. It has been that way since Korea. Truman wouldn’t let MacArthur go beyond the thirty-eight parallel, which divides the country so we ended up with two Koreas. And in Vietnam, Johnson didn’t want to blow up the country and go after it full hawk the way they should have. And that was an unpopular war just like the ones were going into now, the only difference is, is that were welcoming the soldiers back now with a little more enthusiasm and appreciation than we did for the guys and gals from Vietnam. And that’s too bad because I had some friends in Vietnam, and I know what they went through over there, I was glad they came home in one piece. YAX: Right. But I wish people would go back to the days of civility and honoring your neighbor. I know it sounds a little biblical, but it doesn’t take that much, it really doesn’t. I don’t like everything that I do. This sounds like a self-incrimination, which it probably is, but if I haven’t hurt anybody when I did it, then I don’t feel too bad about it. Because most of the things I do, I do more to just break down some stress, it’s my way to deal with stress. And I figure if I go down I’ll take everybody with me, and we’ll all have a good time doing it. [Both laugh.] ROBSON: But I don’t like the way they did it, and you haven’t heard too much about them lately. But they’ve had some pretty serious losses filed against them recently here, and it has kind of quieted them down here. Kind of like the abortion issue I think is one that can really become a sticky wick. We got the law that abortion is legal. OK, fine. We’ve got laws that say that you can’t use federal government money. OK, fine. That’s the law. And now everybody else wants to add their two cents worth to it. Which, to me, is nothing more than duplication, and time wasted. I don’t agree with what happened out west, when that guy went into the church and killed that doctor. I don’t, I can’t even condone that. That guy had no right to take that doctor’s life. Just like I have no right to take yours or any other. I don’t believe that destroying a person’s private life by publishing their phone numbers and their address, and their children and everybody else. I don’t believe that’s the way to deal with an issue. These people are trying to put themselves above everybody else, using the old quotation, they’re holier than everybody else. And they’re not, they’re not different than you and me. They put their pants on one leg at a time, you know? So I don’t know where they get off trying to be so radical. In the paper, recently I read about a young boy, nineteen years old, killed an eighteen year-old. Because he thought that the eighteen year-old had taken advantage of his ex-girlfriend. So what does he do? He stabs the guys twenty-five times, but that isn’t what killed him. What killed him was when he cranked him in the head with a shovel. So what did the kid gain? Not a thing. Like the boy’s father said, “all you have to do is call the cops if that’s what you think”, it would have solved the problem. You know? Your family wouldn’t be feeling the way they do because you’re going to spend the rest of your life in prison, my family wouldn’t be without a son. And there’s a girl out there no that can’t feel too proud of herself, because of what he did. So there’s a minimum of three families that have been affected by this. Anytime the radicals decide to do something it is narrow, and I don’t think they look at it from a broad picture point of view. And I Page 25 �don’t think they intend to. Just like the animal rights people who burned down that laboratory in Michigan State a few years ago. That’s a crying shame they did that. They destroyed a lot of medical information. We were here to be put in charge of the animals, and whether it sounds right or wrong to use animals as guinea pigs, no pun intended. [Both laugh] I didn’t create the animals with some of the DNA that they’ve got in them, and that’s close to you and me. But, if it helps to make my life easier, and if one of those little critters dies, I’m sorry, but that little critter can take credit for saving a lot of lives. It might seem inhumane, but take one of those people and do one of those experiments on them once. And if they think it’s inhumane, look what they’d have to go through. And chances are, the human body being what it is, they’re not going to find a cure out of the human body anyway. YAX: Right. ROBSON: Although there are people out there that have certain strains of DNA in them that do have some positive things that could be used. I understand radicals have their place, they have their rights just like I do. But, I don’t agree with all that they do, especially when it comes to taking life. And when it comes to, I brought up about the abortion thing, I think that a woman should be able to go to her doctor, with her husband, and say, “We don’t want this baby. It wasn’t planned.” And it’s early enough, I think abortion would OK that way. And I think the husband should have a word in it as much as the wives do. And maybe that’s why so many men are the radicals, I don’t know. [Both laugh.] But, tomorrow my opinion of that could change, I don’t know. I’ve had sisters who have had miscarriages. My ex-wife had a miscarriage. I know what it did to my wife, mentally for a while. And, I know what it did to my sisters, mentally for a while. And, if they had, I know my sisters well enough, I don’t think they would have had an abortion if their child could have lived. I don’t think there was anything wrong with the child, it was just that their body wasn’t ready to have a child. I don’t know. And, in the case of nowadays, I think spina bifida is one of the things that if they catch it early enough in a fetus they can fix it, and the child will be born without it. That hole will be taken care of and the child will progress through pregnancy normally. I read that in the reader’s digest, or someplace, I don’t remember. But they can do that, if they know that the baby has that problem. And there’s other things that they can do with the fetus, that if they’re aware of it, they can fix it while it’s still in the mother’s womb. And the child will be born normal. One of the things with abortion is that people want a perfect child. When you decide to have a child you always flip a coin, and it always lands on the edge. It doesn’t land on heads or tails, it lands on the edge. And that is just the coin’s way of saying “I don’t know either.” You know? I remember when my wife was pregnant; they asked us, “what do you want, a boy or girl?” And we said that we didn’t care, as long as it was healthy. So we had two girls. Which just adds the toll up of people in my life that are female. [Both laugh.] ROBSON: So it doesn’t make a whole lot of difference. YAX: So you should understand women fairly well then? ROBSON: No I don’t. [Both laugh.] I sat one day and figured out all the women in my family and all the women on the outside of my family. And I sat there, looked myself right, square in the eye and said, “You know, I have absolutely no idea what women are about.” [Both laugh.] And I’m not going to lie, I don’t know. I mean I know some of the things that women like, but I don’t know what goes on in a Page 26 �woman’s body or in her mind. I know a lot of things that go on in a woman’s body because I went through it went I was married, and I have five sisters and two daughters; two mothers and two grandmothers. I mean, mother and mother-in-law. I can’t even count all the nieces I got. And all the young ladies in my life and all the young ladies that I’ve known up at Applebee’s, you being one. But, I don’t know there’s things about you ladies that I don’t know, and there’s things about you doctors don’t even know. [Both laugh.] ROBSON: So I don’t feel too bad. Sometimes it’s true, you can’t live with you and you can’t live without you. You know? And it works both ways. So there’s when women can’t live with men and there’s times they can’t live without them. Women can’t figure out men, and don’t feel bad because we can’t either. [Both laugh.] YAX: Alright last question; it’s kind of a big one. Looking back at your life what are some life lessons that you’ve come up with, and is there anything in your life you wish you could take back or do over. ROBSON: Oh boy. [Both laugh.] There are so many things that I would do over. But, I think [silence and indiscernible words]. I remember there was two young girls in my life who I really cared for. One of them got pregnant by another guy while we were going steady, so that hurt, and then another girl that I was going with, when I went into the service, I told her not to wait for me. Because I didn’t know where I was going to go, or when I was going to come home. I knew I was going to be in for four years, but that’s a long time to ask somebody to wait. And I wish that I had, in a roundabout way, I had asked her to stay for me. But I didn’t. And one of the mistakes I made was when I got married right after I got out of the service. And that was a bad mistake. I wasn’t any more ready to get married than the man in the moon. YAX: So you were twenty-two or twenty-three? ROBSON: Yes, I was around twenty-three, twenty-four somewhere around there. And that marriage ended in a divorce, I left her and came back here. I was single for four years, so I played the field quite a bit. That’s when I did a lot of stupid things. When I finally met my wife I thought, when I first met her I didn’t know she was married. She was going through a divorce and I didn’t know that, it was a couple of months before I found out. So we kind of played it sort of cool. I like her mom and dad. The amazing thing is that I knew one of her older brothers, I knew him from high school. YAX: And you guys met in California? ROBSON: No I met her when I came back here. YAX: Oh, OK. ROBSON: But I knew him from high school because I ran track against him. He went to Comstock Park. But my first marriage I did a lot of dumb things; a lot of dumb, stupid, immature things. And the best thing I did was when I left her, I did her a favor and I’m sure she knew that. And, for four years I just sat around, I kind of played the field, but I did a lot of thinking. In the meantime I had gotten a good job with the phone company. I was living at home, I was the only kid at home, both my younger sisters were married by then. I had a lot of time to think and do things on my own, and I decided it was about Page 27 �time to grow up a little bit. The military helped me a lot, to grow up, it did a lot of good things for me. But anything you do in life, I’m sure that if you meet any of your high school friends who didn’t go to college, you can feel a difference. You feel different. Not about them, but mentally you know there’s something different between the two of you. And that’s how I felt. So I made up my mind that I was going to do everything I could not to make the same mistakes that ruined my first marriage, when I married my second wife. And, I honestly, truthfully don’t know why she left me. Because I was working really hard not to be a pain in her neck, but I know I became one, just out of frustration. So we got divorced and we had the two girls. Well fortunately, the two girls, one was out of high school and I think on was a sophomore or a junior then. But one thing I learned about divorce was that the older the children are the harder it is on them, it makes no difference. It’s hard on young kids, but time will heal youngsters I think a little better. Unless there’s a lot of physical things involved, or a lot of abuse, physically or otherwise. I know a lot of the decisions my girls made was based on what they felt they had to make, because they didn’t know if they could trust my decision, or their mother’s. And I know, based on that, is partly why I do what I do today for my kids. But, it’s also because my mother and father never asked me any questions, they let me stay at home, they didn’t ask me why I broke up with my first wife, they didn’t make over demanding demands on me, they left their door open for me, and I have done the same thing for my girls. Up at Applebee’s I do a lot of listening, if you watch me, I’m not always talking. And I’m just watching and listening to what is going on around me, and it has helped me a lot. Knowing that the way they were talking is the way I was headed that same way so why don’t I change? Or, “I wonder if I was to ask this person a question, would I get an honest answer?” or “why don’t I just tell them I’m your friend and I’ll be here if you need me.” YAX: Yeah. ROBSON: I’m finding out that, as I get older, that means more than anything. And the mistakes I’ve made I can’t really correct them. But, I can do my damnedest to not make them again. And, sometimes I get a little carried away, but overall I try hard. That’s one of the reasons why I do some of the things I do in church. I like doing the sermons when they ask me to, I like doing the readings when it’s my turn. I don’t know if I like being on the church council or not. [Both laugh.] Because I was on it before and I found it to be a small, you know, it’s good, good things happen. And I’ve always said anybody that belongs to a church, should be involved on their church council somehow, if they want to know anything about their church. I’ve had a couple of pastors here that are good friends, one of them, his wife was a good friend of my wife’s. The pastor that’s in the nursing home right now, is a retired colonel from the army. He was a chaplain. I consider him a friend of mine and the present pastor we got is a friend of mine, I consider him a friend of mine. So I do like that, and it helps me sometimes to remember. YAX: Very cool. Well, thank you so much Bob. END OF INTERVIEW Page 28 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/05e8e38e9243d22c5d94c0e2ddeab3b0.mp3 7228e6e9ba7e061ed824f60fca4ec970 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Robson_Robert Title A name given to the resource Robert Robson audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robson, Robert Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource LeMieux, Kyle Hengesbac, Amanda Yax, Tara Description An account of the resource Robert Robson is a military veteran who was born and raised in Grand Rapids. He signed a contract with the navy in 1962 and spent 4 years in active duty and 2 years in the inactive reserves. He has a lot of memories from his time in the navy and talked about his views on the military and being a veteran in the United States. Growing up in Grand Rapids he had a lot of stories about some of the things that have been changing in the area including diversity. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Veterans--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-26 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/549c5df124bc6cf7dcdc7b0bdc927b88.pdf 75a407b1116eb73b20a42e430a6b3c45 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Richard Robinson InterviewerCARBAJAL: Samantha Carbajal, Arianne Espiritu and Laura Wilusz Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 10/26/2011 Biography and Description Richard Robinson is a 26 year old homosexual who grew up in Clarkston, MI. He attended Oakland Community College from 2003-2005 and GVSU as an undergrad from 2005-2008. His undergrad was in Philosophy and anthropology. He is now a grad student studying public administration. He discusses his activesim with the LGBT community. Transcript CARBAJAL: Okay, my name is Samantha Carbajal and I’m here today, October 26th around 1pm with Richard Robinson... at Allendale, Michgan in Kirkhof and we’re here today to talk about Richard’s life here in Michigan.and then.. if you could just tell me about ..yourself? ROBINSON: Okay, do you want the general.. .. coming out “schpeil? “or to you want the the.. the the early details? later details? CARBAJAL: You can just start out with your name– ROBINSON: Just go for it? CARBAJAL: Birth.. parents.. ROBINSON: Sure! my name is Richard Robinson and I my parents are Kathleen Certell (sp?) and Brian Robinson.. ... I have 3 siblings.. a half older sister named Christina, whose 30, my younger brother– first younger brother is Robert, hes twenty.. four, and then my YOUNGER younger brother is 7.. had another kid after the divorce.. and I’m 26 and hopefully I got through there ... (to Samantha) again, just going through the schpeil? CARBAJAL: Yeah! ROBINSON:Does that work okay? CARBAJAL: However you feel comfortable ROBINSON: I knew.. for certain, that I was gay and that I knew what that was, when I was thirteen. But, when I was 5 years old, I remember I, I kissed a boy’s hand, like I had seen in all those Disney movies.. Page 1 �[pause] and when I.. finally found out what that was–what that meant–it was a 2 step process to me understanding what my life was gonna be.. It was, first, it was... ‘wow.. I’m gay’ and then immediately after that it was, “ohhh shit. I’m GAY.” So now I understood I was a part of this ‘group’ of people.. that would .. that face.. being ostricized.. and every time someone says that’s ‘bad’ or that’s ‘db’, they immediately say that’s ‘gay’ or ‘your a faggot’ and immediately that.. affected me.. like now I knew I was that thing that everyone was using to degrade other things... and between the ages of 13 to 17, when I finally came out, officially, I don’t remember much.. there’s.. just this blur of depression and everything that sucked... I remember the.. the really bad times. I don’t remember really any good times. unless they happened frequently, and then, they, they really didnt. I was going to come out at 16 years old. but that was the year my parents were going through with the divorce.. and.. when I heard that that was going to happen, I decided to stay in the closet another year.. pause.. and I told my mom after that was finalized the next ser.. about three days before my 17th birthday.. pause.. and just before my senior year of high school.. [clears throat] I got lucky in that in that senior year I didn’t LOSE any friends necessarily.. people started to look at me funny.. and .. but largely I was avoided.. and people didn’t mess with me anymore. I don’t know why, but they didn’t. I was severely bullied all through school before that year, then that last year when I came out and suddenly things got better somehow and i really don’t understand why. I– after high school Clarkston High School, [cough] I went to Oakland Community College in Auburn Hills where my GPA immediately jumped 1.4 points, from a 2.1 to a 3.5.... and in two years there, got my Associates of the Arts.. took anthropology and philosophy classes, computer programming everything I could grab.. to just.. fulfil the macro agreement and get my.. my gen. eds waved wherever I went to school.. and I heard about Grand Valley through a friend.. it looked like a calm, nice campus.. whereas I saw my sister go to MSU where I saw nothing but couch burnings.. riots.. and .. late night drunk calls from her attending keggers.. it wasn’t exactly the environment I was looking for for higher education... So I applied to Grand Valley, got in, I did a major here in undergrad for philosophy and anthropology.. in 3 years.. with an associates degree, so 5 years total for undergrad.. after that I–after that graduation I .. I was an archeologist for the forest service.. in Stanislows (sp?) National Forest.. which is.. a surrounding Groveland, California.. just ohh.. about 100, 200 miles in, not very far in from Nevada. Really close to the border.. right next to Yosemite.. and then I lived in San Francisco for a while! working in a publisher, then that fell through, and I moved to North Carolina where I worked as a bartender at various bars, restaurants, and strip clubs.. in North Carolina... that was fun.. af.. after that I.. found my way back to Michigan on on very little.. I had a car, that was falling to pieces.. it was duct taped together in 3 places.. .. by end.. I stayed with friends.. bounced around.. used tax return to pay rent for 2 months til i found a job at a milk factory.. lost that after a few months tried coming back to school.. didn’t work out.. got a job door to door and then 3 days before grad school started, my first semester of grad school, I got my letter of acceptance. that i was in. that that was wednesday.. on thursday i signed up for cla–I got financial aid. On Friday I signed up for classes and on monday night I was in class. my life has been by the seat of my pants, many times, but nothing says it more than 3 to 4 grad schools when I got in.. and I’m studying public administration, with an emphasis in non profit management and leadership.. so thats the general timeline of my life and education so far.. and the education really sticks out because I’m still in school! I’m 26 years old but I’ve been in school for 6 or 7 times as long as I’ve been out of school but going back.. a couple of things really stick out about being in the closet.. couple of things. One was when I was 15, about to turn 16.. [pause] same ser my parents- I think if was the Page 2 �same ser my parents decided to get the divorce, might have been the year before. So that might- would have been when I was.. about to turn 15, I was probably 14 years old, about to turn 15, I was at a Certell (sp?) family reunion. From my mom’s side, and I was .. a snot-nosed nerd at the time, and I had just gotten a new *cough+ video game.. a new thing.. and I brought the, the ‘game manual’ with me to the, to the.. reunion. I just wanted something to do with it, I didn’t want to be there, I wanted to be at home, playing. And so I brought the, the manual along. And its this.. dungeon crawling, demon slaying, thing.. so the, the pictures are pretty.. demonic.. in their art work, its pretty.. the classic, evil sense of Dante’s Inferno kind of thing, in the imagery. my great uncle Val, my mom’s uncle, comes over.. and he sees me in a black shirt, long-ish hair, reading this thing and he asks me if he, you know, if he could see that.. and he does, he takes it, and he looks ,WHAT- And then he goes ‘okay’ and he walks off, and apparently what he did was he went over to my mother, and he started describing this time how he and his church friends got together and got this kid who dressed in all black from the local high school. He might have been a relative or he might have been someone they knew, I don’t know. And they performed an exorcism on him.. sort of an ‘ad hoc’ exorcism.. and he offered my mother the same service. And at the time it was hilarious. Cause you know its just so ridiculous to me that he would do this. But later, upon reflection, I realized that that could have been so much worse had people known at that reunion that I was homosexual. and that scared me. And I suppose those are the things that keep people in the closet.. is that if you were out, and people knew, how much worse could it be? you know like, how lucky you are at times to be hiding. Cause otherwise you could’ve- I could’ve been in some bad situations, in high school and other times, even around family.. it could’ve been bad.As for Grand Valley, I never really had any bad experiences here.. except to say that I’ve been sneered at by Christian groups on campus sometimes.. kind of after well one I confronted the 7th Day Adventist group, so that was.. [laughs] that was fun.. but also, while walking between the blue arch, and the and in front of the arboret I was walking by one day with my silver bag that I had a pride thing on, and it was a- there were people around a table so I went over to see what was going on and I was like “oh, Christian group.. oooh don’t want anything to do with that!” Then the guy was like “nooo come on over!” and I was like “oh well alright” and I turned and I.. like the badge.. showed at him and the look he gave me was that of utter disgust was like alright yeah, made the right decision, I won’t go talk to those people. I’ll stay away from them, they don’t like me. I’ve gotten off quite lucky.. in my coming out experience. I didn’t lose anybody, I’ve never been the subject of violence, I’ve never been.. confronted, or torn down for it, not really anyway. There’s a couple of vague instances I almost remember but they’re not REALLY clear about what was going on anymore. .. and so I think one time I was I was having an argument with my sister, and I think there response to me, was something just to just shut me up was “Well at least I’m going to heaven.” and I believe that was a response to me being .. gay at the time. I think that’s what it was.. I couldn’t be certain.. but I didn’t spend the night at my house that night. I went to a friends house and stayed there. my good friend Tony. So, those kinds of things sort of stick out but I don’t really know if she, if she was saying that. I can’t say for sure, I believe she was, because I don’t know anything else that, within her strange theology, that that would cause her to say that to me. She’s since grown up a little bit, but... its still painful... So thatsCARBAJAL: So how did your parents react? Page 3 �ROBINSON: I told my mother after the divorce. I told her, and [recalls quickly something unintelligible] ..yeah because I told her, and then she told my dad during the divorce. That was kind of manipulative, I don’t know exactly why she did that.. other than she’s just a blabbermouth and told EVERYBODY. You know, once I told her then *snaps+ “oh off to the family!” Everybody knew. Her brothers, sisters, grandmy grandparents... everybody. and ... I sort of function the same way.. I, I don’t know how to react to things sometimes, so I tell the story to other people and see how they react. Just like to be sure I’ve gotten it correctly. [laughs] I get that trait from her.. But I di-didn’t talk to my dad about it for.. about 5 years... 5-6 years.. cause I didn’t talk to him about it til before I, until just before I went to California which was about 4 years ago.. yeah so about 6 years between telling my mom and talking to my dad about it, even though he knew.. and what I what I’m angry about still and what I haven’t really forgiven her for is that she took away my ability to talk to him about it. If I had gotten to break the ice with it and tell him, I could’ve done it. But it hanging over us now, being held over us, by like the .. it was something neither of us wanted to bring up. And so we were both sort of waiting for the other one to. So we had a.. a.. an okay relationship.. as much as you can.. being a kid, going through a divor- go, going through a parent’s divorce and blaming the one for it. Everybody in my family blamed my dad.. and I don’t really care anymore, but at the time it still was difficult to talk to them. Its not easy. and .. and if I could have, could’ve pressured myself into bringing it up and saying it so it just took telling and it would’ve, it would’ve happened like that, but I couldn’t do that because it was taken away from me. So it wasn’t a bad reaction.. it was unfortunate, and .. it wasn’t as good as it could’ve been. And a few things when wrong, but not so wrong that I was kicked out of my home. or so wrong that I lost family, or that I don’t talk to anybody anymore, but nope I still have everybody. Generally it took them a while to get over it. It takes them a while to get over the black thought that this one of their children isn’t going to provide them grand kids. There’s that. CARBAJAL: And you said you were.. bullied? ROBINSON: YeahCARBAJAL: Like throughout school? ROBINSON: Very badly, terribly, .. in middle school one day, ... people were handing out dollar bills for everybody who punched me.. they were PAYING others to hit me in the arm, through the halls of the school. And I never saw oh- and the only reason I knew that was happening was because, someone told me. So I don’t know how much money changed hands or exactly what happened, I just remember I got punched a lot in the arm in that hallway that day. CARBAJAL: And that was just becauseROBINSON: Just because! *claps+ just because I don’t know, they got a reaction outta me.. cause I cried.. I don’t really know. But .. my right arm specifically got punched a lot.. through middle school. And when I found out- that was spurred on the, when I found out that I was ge- that this needs to be not talked about. It just needs to be hidden as much as possible. .. and to never.. never ever mention it.. and it was actually kind of easy because I was a, I’m a.. a.. a bit of a nerd I hung out with people who were already ostracized.. were already not part of any ‘in’ group.. who were al- who were connected by the Page 4 �commonality of being out of other cliques and out of other groups of people. And so that made it easier to hide.. cause then I could just be seen as awkward. If I was just seen as awkward, people wouldn’t think, “Oh he’s not straight.” They would just think, “Oh he’s an awkward nerd..” And they did! And it worked. It wasn’t on purpose, that was just a fortunate thing.. and once I was surrounded by other people, the.. bullying kind of let up in high school, but not really.. Anytime where I could be isolated was a chance for me to get something, from somebody.. whether it was being jumped on.. in gym, people were jumping on my back and trying to... essentially ride my back. That happened a couple of times, in gym class. Or we were just looking for a way to be the funny guy at my expense. sss- looking at it from now it probably the character of most of it- someone looking to be the funny guy on my expense. CARBAJAL: And that all got better after you came out? Did it let up a little? ROBINSON: Yeah.. somewhat? I think some of it was.. I finally.. grew up.. and out.. and nearly 6 feet tall, rather broad shouldered.. you know.. I was just so- I was just physically larger than many other people who were bullying me before. And so I think that at least a little bit intimidated them. And.. I had lashed out a few times. its, it was, its tough in schools when they, when they have no.. no tolerance policies.. for fighting.. or for cursing of any sort. its just if your seen doing this you either get suspended or expelled. But when the bullying is subversive, and its minor, and button pushing.. they don’t need to be loud.. to get at you. They don’t need to be noticeable to make it affective. But the, inevitably, the boiling over, the lashing out, the.. the steam from the kettle.. That is always loud. The person who is finally- they’ve been pushed too far and need to lash out a little bit. I once flipped a kid out of my .. seat, in Japanese class, because it was MY seat, next to MY friend and.. he was not there for any good reason. And so I flipped the desk over and leaned in really close and told him to fuck off. And.. incidences like that, where I was able to do those things.. to provide enough of a physical presence that I shouldn’t be messed with on certain levels. That was more protective than anything else. People only mess with you to the point where they think that you won’t fight back. As soon as you do, they, they let off. But, the person who’s fighting back has to.. be just as subversive or just as quiet about it, as the other way. So I think theres this underground of.. of barely restrained violence at times. In in when you’re being bullied, theres just, you really, you want to! You want to get it to stop, whatever it takes to get it to stop. Cause those years, between 13 and 17 I was near suicidal. I didn’t want to go out, I didn’t wanna be around people, I... [pause] I did things just to keep up appearances but there were multiple incidences where .. again the bad things are all that I remember, where I just.. I was close. I was close to the edge. And the only thing that kept me from it was I knew that it would hurt my family and friends more than if they knew I was a homosexual. That would be a greater pain, and a burden, than, than knowing. And that was it. That was the only thing that kept me from it. Wasn’t hope for a brighter future, wasn’t thinking that my life would get better later on.. It was only that I would cause more pain by not being here., Than than I would be, than I am suffering myself. I didn’t want to inflict that on anyone else. So I, I took it as my ‘cross to bare’ so to speak. And I didn’t burden anyone else with it and it didn’t let on. But that’s just the same, psychological environment. The same state to be in, that brings people to suicide.. and that makes people lash out. Like I did in high school. I wish somebody had put the pieces together, but nobody ever did. When I came out it was a surprise to everybody. Everybody knew I was depressed but they didn’t know why. They didn’t know what for.. they had no idea to even ask! Which is stupid, because if you look back at a photo album of me, from the ages of like 5 to 17, 80% Page 5 �of my pictures are of me standing in jazz hands, or with one foot up on its toe.. or something what you would consider pretty homosexual, pretty gay at the time. But I don’t know.. I don’t know what people thought of me.. I just, I can’t see that they couldn’t have known something.. cause looking now I know I wasn’t that good of hiding it. CARBAJAL: When did it start to get better? Like your life right now? ROBINSON: It was mildly better in college. I tried to get in touch with the LGBT community here. didn’t work out. It was still kind of cliquish. It was still kinda the same mentality that kept me ostracized in high school. Here’s the “in” group that I’m not part of right now and becoming part of it’s very difficult. And it…and my undergrad experience was not what I was hoping it was going to be but it was at least filled with studying something I really love studying. I am, to my core, a philo philosopher and anthropologist. studier of the human condition like those are what I care about and I’m going through nonprofit work cause I wanna do something about it. And, that’s, that really informs my professional career, my my future, and what I wanna do with my life, but that’s all instead of really having any meaningful relationships or friendships with the gay community and undergrad. Very few. Very few if any. and just looking for something, some way to connect with the people in my own community. I, cause that was my, my jump out to California. I had family who lived in North Bay. Which is Corte Madera. So San Fransisco’s on the end of a peninsula and the bay curves the whole thing. So North Bay is the, the area directly across the Golden Gate Bridge. That’s where my family lived. My uncle’s an architect. I lived with them for a few months and I got a job at that publisher and I lived in San Fransisco…and it and all I knew is that was the A gay epicenter in the United States. That was a place I could go where I didn’t even havet, where no one would bat an eye. That my existence was what I wanted. And it, and it worked. It was, it was good for a time. I, I really. I hated leaving there, but I had to cuz I couldn’t afford it. I was trying to live in a city like that for under $30,000 a year. It was impossible. Like I couldn’t keep it up. Had to leave. And, I dreamt about that city for every night for a good six months. Every night was the same dream. I was back. That’s how much of an impact it was. And it wasn’t until just now in grad school that things finally really took off. In in being a peer in the community, in the group and being part of it. And I don’t know why that is. I don’t know if that was just the people I was trying to get in touch with in undergrad, if I was just not ready for it. If I was just too much of the awkward nerd to be part of it or not but, I guess that means I’m a late bloomer of some sort but I’m just happy it’s working out now. CARBAJAL: What like type of experiences made San Francisco so great for you? ROBINSON: Castro is in interesting place (said with laughter). There’s a bit of a small history about San Francisco. In the 1940’s, the navy discharged every soldier, it was every sailor it found to be homosexual, into the port of San Francisco. That is why during the subsequent fifties and sixties there was such a large uprising of gay men in San Francisco. There is not a large group of gay women in San Francisco, it doesn’t exist. There are some who are natives but it’s not as if gay women and lesbians are flocking to San Francisco. They never did. Gay men did…because there was already a large population of them there and they took over what was an Irish Catholic neighborhood, the Castro. And, that became the epicenter of everything. Of Harvey milk, of of the LGBT rights movement of California that, that because of a policy in the Navy is why that’s there. Jump to 2008, 2009, when I’m trying to move there, when I’m trying to live there, I’m 23 years old and…much too young for it. Twenty years too young to really be Page 6 �part of that community in that city. The young community of homosexuals there isn’t very vibrant because the exodus stopped there many years ago. As fabulous as the city is, it’s an amazing place. It’s not the same gay epicenter that it once was. But just because it was there made things better, walking down the street and having every lamppost rainbow flag on it. Walking down another street and have it covered in leather pride flags. Gay men’s community at least has subdivided itself into many subsequent smaller communities and they all have their own flag of a sort. The leather one is a red heart with black, white, and blue stripes on it and that’s on Fuller Street I believe they have a leather parade there of guys in leather chaps and harnesses and like leather biker caps all covered in studs. It’s kinda the idea. And it’s just because that place is so diverse even within the gay community there, that made it more welcoming. But the problems were it could be reduced to a series of dance clubs and meat markets so to speak. And, outside of that there wasn’t much more of political solidarity and there wasn’t much for me trying to find any … common interests groups to join with. Those just weren’t there anymore. But you could still go to the Castro on a Saturday night and find people walking around naked. That’s just how the part of the city worked. There were they had apparently passed ordinances where public nudity in the areas were were allowed and…people made use of it. So every weekend, it didn’t matter how cold it was outside, that’s the thing you could find. And that’s sort of freeing to see, but none of it was what I expected. And so it got a little better just because it was easy to be out and not worry about it, but it was still alien. It was still strange. It was still not what I was expecting. And that’s been, that’s been a theme for me. That’s been something that’s been pretty constant. A lot of things, I come across a lot of groups I try to become part of are alien to me and strange and I don’t understand them quite. And it’s partially because I hold myself apart from them but also because I don’t really thing they’re as welcoming as they think they are. Of other people. CARBAJAL: Is that the same, like when you went to North Carolina and.. ROBINSON: North Carolina just sucked. I went to North Carolina because my mother and sister were living there and I could crash at their houses for a few months. And I was in North Carolina for nine months total. six months in Winston-Salem, the home of cigarettes in this country. Winston Cigarettes Salem, yeah. Winston-Salem. And then just outside of Charlotte in Matthews, North Carolina and I hated it. I hated every minute of it. I’m never living there again. I don’t get along with my sister well, and to get outta there my mother ended up giving me that shitty car, buying herself a new one, and said “just go, just take your stuff and leave, just get outta here there’s nothing for you here.” I didn’t have a job anymore, I didn’t have anything I could cling to. The only reason I could be there because my family was there and we weren’t getting along well anyway so the only option was to just leave. And I did. And I took a really big risk coming back to Michigan. The unemployment rate was worse here, and I didn’t have any plans for graduate school at the time. I didn’t know I was gonna be in grad school til two months before the semester started. That’s why I applied, and my, and and it worked. I don’t know why (said with laughter) I’m glad it did, I’m doing well but…that’s everything since undergrad has been by the seat of my pants. Taking risks and trying to make things work out. Some of them have some of them haven’t. San Francisco didn’t and I ended up in North Carolina, and so I really hope grad school works out because I don’t know where I’ll end up if this one doesn’t. No, no gay community to be spoken of at all in North Carolina that I could find. Charlotte didn’t have anything for bars that were consistent, they were always closing down and opening up so there was no place that I could really depend on to go. I Page 7 �didn’t go anywhere cuz I was also out of money. And up in Winston-Salem there was one which was a really bad. It wasn’t any good. It was always empty. But it was huge. It was just a, was just a gigantic empty space and no one was ever there. So there was no way for me to meet anybody. Do anything. CARBAJAL: So it’s when you came back up here that you started meeting people and getting involved? ROBINSON: I, came back here and I reconnected with some old friends asked if they were still at Grand Valley. And I found that the LGBT community here had grown significantly. That there was two new student groups, that what once was the women’s center here became the LGBT resource center. This used to be the women’s center. These three rooms here. And that we colloquially developed what we call the “queer corner.” Where that, where that piano used to be if you remember that circle of chairs and couches out there . There’s a group of us that are in the student groups and otherwise who are all who are 90% of us are part of the LGBT community in some way. A few people, three or four, out of the 20 or so that show up, aren’t. And so we’ve called it the queer corner because that’s our “space.” We’ve claimed it. We needed a space to be where we could be a community, be a group of friends and not worry about people harassing us. Cuz once we were in a big group like that, we were left alone. Nobody bothers us, no one’s ever come in a confronted us over there. There were stories of a couple of of people coming over there and reading really loudly, the passages of the Bible that condemn homosexuality and talking about them around us. As if to say, we know you and we object to you because our Bible tells us so. But I didn’t see any of that. And, had I seen it I would have confronted them. But, that’s been the bigger part, is having a space for the LGBT student population that we’ve claimed as our own. Has been probably the most helpful. And there’s two rules to the queer corner, unspoken rules, one everyone’s generally welcome but no hate speech. Hate speech at all of any sort against any group of people is not tolerated and you will be ostracized and kicked out of there cuz we’ve all gone through it and we’re never going through it again. Especially not for some jackass who just thinks it’s funny to come over and do that. CARBAJAL: You say you had problems with the SDA activists? Seventh-day Adventists? ROBINSON: I went up and I confronted, I was a philosophy student and I had no idea who the Adven who the Seventh-day Adventists were. But I knew enough of Christian theology that I could place them in the splintering history of Christian churches and I went in there and I specifically asked them what their views on homosexuality were and they told me. And all hate the sin not the sinner. Well, great but I really don’t think you guys understand what your words mean when you say that because you are in fact hating on the sinner when you say that. That’s the point. That’s how words work. You know, that how you make sin into a noun of somebody who performs it. Is to call them the sinner in the first place. they didn’t quite understand that and I just walked away. I was just trying to be there, philosophically challenge them on and just decided not to in the end. CARBAJAL: Besides the LGBT like center here, was there anyone that really supported you? ROBINSON: I never had a problems in the academic departments of any of my teachers. Generally everybody knew. I was pretty open about it and . I got left alone about it in those classes. And but . For actively supporting me? Not really. I tried being part of the student groups but again I didn’t feel, not Page 8 �necessarily not welcome just not part of it, and what friends I did have here I knew some of them from high school. I followed a friend here and his name was Carl. He was a good friend of mine. Who he would become my roommate was when we moved off-campus and we went through anthropology together. And he’s still actually serving in that same forest as an archaeologist that I served in. He keeps going back ser after ser and he’s slowly becoming a federal employee. But, no support groups here. I even count Milt Ford, the man who started the resource center. I spoke to him a few times in his office in the Liberal Studies Department over in Lake Ontario. But again, that’s part of the resource center he started, so other than that no there wasn’t much. CARBAJAL: Are there any activities that you yourself like. Civil rights movements or anything that you participated in? ROBINSON: (with a smile) I was in San Francisco when Proposition 8 passed for California. And Prop 8 was the anti-gay marriage amendment to the state constitution in that state. And so I got to be part of a march there against it you know, 10-15,000 people walking down market street. Walking from Dubous Park to the city hall. But it was, it was very strange. I we were following the this group. And the person at the head of it apparently when we got to the park, the first stop, was this very large golden drag queen. Gold hair, makeup, dress, all of it. And every other word out of her mouth was community. “How dare these people come into our community and hate on our community”, “we need to stand up as a community, and fight for our community, against the oppression against our community”. Like just repeating the same word to drive home the community part for some reason over and over and over again. And, then one of the local bars had brought a generator and a dj stand and a small dance party began. And I just thought that was, it was absolutely absurd. You’re going to have this political march here and at the end this is what we see? A dance party? Now partly you can see that this was a plan to be celebrating the defeat of Prop 8 as it won only by three points. You know less than the standard error in a poll for for politics was how much it won by so it coulda swung the other way. Not a very big margin. And so there was just this weird sense in San Francisco where Barrack Obama just won, this person that San Francisco absolutely loved and voted for in some crazy 90%. But then Prop 8 passed, and everyone’s going “what do we do?” “How do we handle this? How do we deal with this?” And part of the answer was just go on as the party had. And the chanting the things that had happened at that time were kind of half-hearted. Out of the bars into the streets, out of the bars into the streets and all the old-timers in the bars are goin “whatever, we’ve been defeated before this is just another defeat on the notch”. “It’s another notch on the headboard who cares?” It’s just strange to witness and but other than that for civil rights I mean there’s not that much I’ve been personally involved in. I’d like to have been but I was just always in the wrong place at the wrong time. I was never around it when it was happening cuz some of it’s pretty organic. I was never part of the groups that were starting it. You know part of being an outsider in many ways is that you don’t get to be part of these things because no one’s you don’t have any social connection to it. You know you can say well you just go out and do it anyway if you don’t have social connections there that is making social connections. Yeah, well how many people hadn’t had been at protests alone just because they went there and not with four or five friends that they want that they dragged along. How many people who are there aren’t being supported by anybody else they know and are just alone without anyone else in the crowd that they know? I, I doubt that happens much. I, I bet people are there in groups already made and coming together with other groups Page 9 �of people under that same banner. But since I wasn’t part of that in many ways around when many things were happening I didn’t get to be part of it. Because I would just feel awkward and alone and strange and separated again. CARBAJAL: Do you have any heroes like who conducted these movements, anyone you look up to for doing it? ROBINSON: Go Harvey Milk, good for him being the first elected openly gay politician in the country. Elected city commissioner of San Francisco sometime, I don’t remember the dates. I don’t much have, no, haha Barney Frank. That guy’s cool. senator of Massachusetts. first openly gay senator, I believe, and who was outted during a scandal and kept office through it and stayed there. But he’s also my political hero for what he tries to do in terms of senate in terms of finance for the country. There’s might not be any too many people that I’d look up to as as leaders of the gay community right now. There’s not many, and it- the only times there have been where when the pressure against us has has been so great that one person could rise above it (two women talking in the background) and be seen publicly. And that’s part of the legend of some like cardinal who was an assassinated city commissioner. who was assassinated by some other commissioner. Him along with the mayor, so there’s a story that’s come up a-around that but… because one the one thing that keeps the LGBT community together is the similarity in our impression by other people… that’s what keeps us together,(someone in the background putting something in the microwave) because if you look you look at groups of older gay men and lesbians, they don’t want anything to do with each other, (a couple of people walk into the room and start talking) the common goal, because were treated similarly.. (someone in the background putting something in the microwave) and without that it’s hard to (some papers crumpled in the background) being organize us, there isn’t a collective experience, there sort of is but not really, everyone’s story is unique, being because were the random minority we show up everywhere we show up in every other minority group we show up in every other group of people, were there, this one thing about who we fall in love with and have romance with and have sex with that that’s are one guiding connection (two ladies talking in the background) its very tenuous when you compare with other civil rights groups I don’t think it’s as strong as the connecting thing in the black community in the united states. First, because their impression first was something else entirely and it’s still very real, too many of them… I wish there was more. And I’m really happy for the victories that we have been getting, but it’s so splintered (microwave beeping) when viewed from within that it’s hard to say even organizations that are doing good work cause you think the human rights campaign with some fantastic organization but you could look at the criticism of it from within its not it’s not you know john salnees the current president of the human rights people that yellowy quality signs them, they’re just a gala organization, they throw on big gala fundraisers so they can throw more *clap* big gala fundraisers so they can pay money to people *clap* who won’t give us everything we want. There is just this test they are going to support the Democratic Party and fundraise for them through the gay community and they’re not actually doing very many good works. That’s what we see more of than strong leaders, we see a lot of splintered groups and people doing things for their own local communities but not any large individuals that are taking charge, so it be hard for me to say that there’s many heroes. CARBAJAL: Now today, what are—you’re a spokesperson? Or you speak to your people about? Page 10 �ROBINSON: I *chuckles* perform public therapy ha-ha, even being here telling this story of mine telling what I’ve been through, and what my fears were all makes it easier to deal with than it was before I had done that and so every time I go do a- analyze an advocates training or I can do anything for the-for this organization, it makes me just feel a little better about it. And so I just say I’ve always engaging in open therapy for it, because talking about it and getting it out in the open makes it easier because sunlight’s the best disinfectant. So those emotional scars and that pain (someone getting situated in their chair) I’ve been through is a little bit lessened every time. It’s like a small pain killer, and as if if I keep taking them maybe it will go away completely some day. So this isn’t really to bring people over to my side or get them to understand, this is just more for my own benefit, that…This makes my life easier, doing these things and being open about it. CARBAJAL: Who have you talked to? Like what types of groups and people? ROBINSON: No like I said before the tape recorder was on, I spoke to Greek guys and advocates I’ve done faculty staff, a couple this year and a couple last year I’ve done others for general student body I’m also the treasurer for out n about right now the LGBT community group on campus now, so well I wasn’t part of the community before I am now ‘cause I’m trying to run the organization, at least the money side. And *claps twice*… I think that’s it, I think that’s what I’ve done. And so I’m grabbing every opportunity I can to do these things, just ‘cause ….. Want to… makes me feel better. CARBAJAL: That’s good… for when you present to professors and things like that do you just tell-talk about your life experiences? ROBINSON: Yeah there’s a general spiel I give out, there’s many- it’s certainly much shorter than the one I gave earlier here It includes the when I found out, my first experience when I was five… the times I’ve butt up against the religious organizations, including my great uncle, the student groups here… and how my time at grand valley has been. because that’s the focus of those things, is telling them how my time at grand valley has been and how it could be better, and there has been some pushback against my … people have seem to be as anti religious stances and anti religious organizations stances I’ve had and there’s Benjamin minor but it’s there and I tell them that were the ones that were victimized, it’s understandable for us to be on the defensive and for us to not exactly be open to people coming to that stance, trying to help us, it was about 30-40 years ago that we were still being tortured by the Mormon church with electro shock therapy. And we are still currently being hunted down and killed in other religious countries around the world so it’s not like it’s my fault that I have a (two woman start talking in the background) negative opinion of it in general. CARBAJAL: So what types of things are you doing, like today, with the LGBT are your trying to control money aspect of? ROBINSON: I supposed to run the fundraisers I hold the card in my name and the advisors name I’m just the treasurer you know as much student groups, as much their as officers stick to their roles, it’s just really my name is just on the paper is doing that, I don’t think there’s anything- there’s nothing specifically that I do as treasurer that nobody else couldn’t do, other than I have to sign the receipts, Page 11 �but you know it’s a student organization account it’s not very big, it’s not something that’s *chuckles* ever a problem that I couldn’t keep track of and do. CARBAJAL: What types of fundraisers are there? ROBINSON: We haven’t done any! Ha-ha we’re working on it, as a student organization. It’s again the seed of our pants *chuckles* If you have ever been part of an undergrad organization they’re not exactly the most well run things on campus… Yeah. CARBAJAL: What types of- where would the money go for the fundraiser? ROBINSON: What we do is every spring, we buy and hand out free t-shirts, for national coming out day, April 15th, but we put on the closest Wednesday, to it. No National day of silence what it was national day of silence. And we cycle through the rainbow colors on our t-shirts and we ask organizations to be co-sponsors and we offer them a space—a name their name on the back of our shirts as being a supporting organization for whatever donation they can give us to buy whatever t-shirts and we get them .. I think last year we got them for… a few dollars each. Some really small amount we got 151 tshirts for 700 dollars 600 dollars something like that? That’s like 4 dollars a shirt somewhere around there? I don’t remember. That’s where the bulk of our fundraising money goes to, is to doing that, the rest of it we just run through the school we ask the school to pay for whatever we want, they do. CARBAJAL: You just hand out the shirts or do you have an event? ROBINSON: Yeah we hand them out, no we hand them out. We try and say group members first but that’s what they show up first. You know, Last year was our smallest handout 150 we usually hand out 300, 400 get up to the cost of 1200 dollars of t-shirts. We found a pretty good group to go through last year, and they’re willing to cut down the price by allowing them to put their logo on it and also to … they give us a discount on the cost per shirt because they’re like supporting the organization, the events like that… It was Ann Arbor t-shirt company that did that for us I drove out and picked up the shirts myself. And it’s a good time. CARBAJAL: Are there any other events that they do too? ROBINSON: We did we do an amateur drag show every fall that was just a few weeks ago, we had bout 2-300 people in attendance up in the Pere Marquette room. Ha very small cramped space filled with people. And it was a huge hit. We got a bunch of our students able to put on drag and walk on a runway and back… and we have a door we call it’s our closet door and put a rainbow flag over it, walk through it and stuff. It’s this this fun little metaphor thing they get to come out (two woman talking in the background) in then they’re in drag and they do the runway walk. We partner with a Transpectr, the transgender support group on campus and we do that for national transgender day of remembrance. We do a candle light a (someone opens the door) visual form out around the clock tower, we put on a pride prom in the spring were we provide the LGBT students (people in the background talking) who didn’t necessarily get the chance to be at prom the way they wanted to in high school, we give them the new chance to do it how how they would like.. here. And then day of silence those are our four major things we do. Then other than that we put on education pieces for them community keeping people up to do date on the current political situations we find ourselves (someone slams the door) as well as Page 12 �doing general outings. We’re going to a an orchard this weekend, to have a big gay hay ride where we’re going to freak out some farm owners ha-ha, by coming and being flamboyant as possible on their hayride and there corn maze, eat cider and donuts and do a very Michigan thing for the fall together. The organization is really just is just for that, keeping the community together and keeping us visible on campus making sure people know that gay people are here and that were part of this campus. CARBAJAL: Is there anything that you want to like to see the group do? Like any strides, specifically? ROBINSON: I would like the group to have a specific way, (he moves in his chair) a specific program that it does in the early fall semester to get in touch with the incoming freshman and incoming transfer students and let them know that we exist and let them know that support is here and give them the information they need to get in touch with all of it. Because frankly the the student life night isn’t good enough… people in the closet… aren’t that social, to go up to a big gathering like that, that public and it is so to approach a table for- covered in rainbows and about the LGBT community here, that makes us that would make me nervous had I been in the closet and seen that, I would not have approached it and I get the same response when I ask the people in the group, would have you approached a table surrounded by the student body in general which was presenting as a LGBT organization and they say no. we need a way to get in touch and show the kids who may be closeted who are coming in to the first time to a a 4-year university and show them that we’re there. And that we can be used as a support group and that we can be used as a safe place and that were a safe group of people that you can finally be yourself with… And but finding the means to do that’s difficult, do we do it with just an ad campaign were we just put out flyers everywhere and pluggers and point to that you don’t have to be out to join us… you know something like saying something like that you don’t have to come out to be a part of this community, please please join us. So the we got to find a way to be visible, and present and friendly without exposing ‘cause that’s the greatest fear when you’re in the closet and when you’re in that place is being exposed and seen. On something other than your own terms, coming out can be fantastic as long as it’s on your own terms. It’s not on anybody else’s terms ‘cause those are usually bad. So we need to find a way to be that resource…and specifically because I don’t want to see an LGBT student be the one found at the bottom of the ravine one year, because nearly every year I was here as undergrad there’s someone that has jumed off that bridge between Mackinac and the lake halls and there’s enough of a precedent of suicide in the LGBT community that I don’t want to see happen here on our campus. Last year with that group of those 5 or 6 LGBT kids who killed themselves rapid succession last fall, there has been a couple this year that gotten national attention but… it shouldn’t happen here, not when we have this not when we have three student groups and I want us to be seen more for that,(someone talking and moving in their chair in the background) I want people to know who out n about is, I want them to know what it’s for and I wanted us to be recognized almost invariably by the campus because we’re so visible… But that’s a long term goal, and I don’t know if I’m able to complete it, I hope I can just lay the seeds for it while I’m here. But I don’t I won’t be part of the—I’ll be graduating next year before maybe before the next school year starts so I won’t be a part of whatever, they’re doing… next year. Not just I hope I get them to do this while I’m gone. CARBAJAL: Will you ever come back? And see how it’s going? Page 13 �ROBINSON: Oh I’ll be in grand rapids, but… but grand valley will no longer have a program for me to take I will have gone as far as I can in my education at grand valley I can’t do a PhD here because they don’t have it for my program. There is no other masters I’d like to get, because I don’t want to get a second masters it’s pointless. I have one, I don’t need another… and… I don’t know, I’d like to think that I could to stay in grand rapids I’m going into non-profit work in grand rapids is the second largest center for philanthropy in the country, by GDP and so it’s possible? But that’s large because of Bandandels and the other big rich Dutch families in the area… and everybody has to get my resume. you know I left Michigan before for the same reason I couldn’t get a job here, and I had a job somewhere else, so if I send my resume out to every government agency I’d like to work for every non-profit foundation whichever I’d like to work for in the country, I have to be ready to move. You know if I’m willing to go off and work with the consulting firm, I’ll be sent around the country, I’ll be out. I’ll be off consulting, working with people and who knows how large the geographic area? I would love to stay in Grand Rapids, I just I can’t say if I will or not, it’s unfortunate but it’s true. CARBAJAL: Is there anything el-anything else that you wish happens with, anybody that needs to come out or? ROBINSON: I would like to hope that it the the what’s the bad things that happen to you I would like that to even out across the LGBT groups. Right now we’re four times as likely to attempt to suicide growing up. Than just your average teenager where one in four of us get kicked out of our homes and we come out before we’re independent of our parents and thus we account for 60-70% of homeless youth in this country so what I would like to hope is for those numbers to go down. That your not longer 1 in four are kicked out 1 in 5, 1 in 6 and up to none, are kicked out for it. And I would like to hope that Grand Rapids continues to grow and gets better at it, because right now it’s pretty good for what you’d think about a west Michigan city, grand rapids is pretty good, it’s got four gay bars which is incredible that there’s the economy could sustain four of them… and there’s a few friendly gay churches, good. As much as I don’t want to be a part of them, good I’m glad they’re there, ‘cause I can’t speak for all of us. And so yeah Grand Rapids is good, it’s getting better hope it continues to get better, and I hope all of our statistics start to get lower, at least regionally but not completely. (Someone in the background moving in their chair) CARBAJAL: Is there anything else, anything more you want to share? ROBINSON: Any closing tagline any, any bit? No I think it’s depressing enough ha-ha CARBAJAL: Depressing note to end on ha-ha ROBINSON: I think that spiels, think that’s a good way to end it seriously without that end you could put it on MPR ha-ha-ha. CARBAJAL: Ok well thank you for coming ROBINSON: Thank you END OF INTERVIEW Page 14 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/199f33d3ba1eac40d2f7e9f16788f905.mp3 d9d0cdfd05971004cda4b32190a05160 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Robinson_Richard Title A name given to the resource Richard Robinson audio interview and transcript, interview 1 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robinson, Richard Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Carbajal, Samantha Espiritu, Arianne Wilusz, Laura Description An account of the resource Richard Robinson grew up in Clarkston, MI. He attended Oakland Community College from 2003-2005 and GVSU as an undergrad from 2005-2008. His undergrad was in Philosophy and anthropology. He is now a grad student studying public administration. He discusses his activism with the LGBT community. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Gays--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-26 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ca178fb931566331b28f89a05db3d655.pdf 8771be6ce4360bf82edf83fc8a54ac2e PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections IntervieweOMOH: Esiloza Omoh Interviewers: Briana Burke Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections DatOMOH: 9/30/2011 Biography and Description Esiloza Omoh was born in Legos, Nigeria, raised in Chicago, Illinois, and attended Grand Valley State University. She graduated with a degree in Biomedical Science. She discusses her experiences with discrimination because of the color of her skin. Transcript BURKE: We are here today, Friday September 30th, with Esiloza Omoh at Allendale, Michigan and here to talk about your experiences with civil rights in western Michigan. To start off could you please give us some basic information about yourself; where you are from and your family and some background? OMOH: Well, my name is Esiloza but I usually go by Esi. I am twenty-three years old and I recently graduated from Grand Valley with a Biomedical Science major. I was originally born in Legos Nigeria, and my family immigrated to the United States about thirteen years ago. And we lived in Chicago for about eight or nine years before I moved to Grand Rapids to go to school. BURKE: OK. So what about your family? Tell us about your family, your parents, siblings... OMOH: I have two brothers and two sisters and my mom was in Nigeria and my father recently passed away in February, so he’s no longer with us but he was also living in Nigeria. I have two older sisters, one older brother and one little brother. I have family, they live, I have two siblings that live in Chicago, one in Memphis, Tennessee and another one in Dekaib, Illinois. And they’re pretty much done with school except for my little brother who’s in college in Northern Illinois. So I’m the only one in Grand Rapids Michigan. BURKE: OK. So what about your ancestors and your community involvement? OMOH: Would you like me to talk about the ancestors first? BURKE: Sure. Yeah. OMOH: Oh, well I don’t really know too much about my ancestors. I do know that I have a lot of aunts and uncles. My father’s, my paternal grandfather married four wives... Page 1 �BURKE: Wow. OMOH: And my maternal grandfather married five wives? So I have a lot of extended family... (laughs)... yea BURKE: (laughs) Wow. OMOH: And we’re all related through my grandfather so yea BURKE: OK. OMOH: I don’t think we would call his wives step-mothers because they really weren’t step mothers they were just other wives. BURKE: Right. OMOH: So, yea. My maternal grandparents died before I was born and my father’s father died when I was about two and my father’s mother passed away when I was about six or seven. So, I don’t really know a lot about my grandparents or extended family and then at a young age I moved to America so I was removed from them I have no family in this country except for my siblings. So, I’m further away from them. But it was a good chance to meet them like I said in February. My father passed away and I had to go back to Nigeria for the burial and I was meeting cousins and aunts and uncles that I have never meet in my entire live before and I believe I have about eighty or ninety uncles and aunts and I’m not even gonna’ talk about the cousins .. . (laughs)... I don’t even know and its crazy cuz’ we all look alike (laughs) and its weird because it’s like I’ve never seen you before in my life and I’ve never heard about you and this big large group of people are family... BURKE: Oh, wow! OMOH: So... gotten’ used to that I don’t remember half of their names but we still keep in touch with the Facebook ... (laughs) ... it’s a good social media type of tool to use. BURKE: Right, Yea. (laughs) OMOH: But, yeah, apart from like my immediate history like I knew where I grew up... my father was the first child to go to school period. BURKE: Wow. OMOH: In his family, so he grew up in the village and um his father and mother were slightly, not slightly, but mostly illiterate. So he said that he was also the first child of all of the wives. So he was kind of like a father when his father passed away. So he had to go to school, he had to move, he left the village to go to the city to go to school because you have a better education there. And he went on to go get his college degree, his masters, his doctorate everything, he has so many different degrees in law and finance and everything. And um, since he became the father because Nigeria back in the day and still kind of right now is mostly male dominated BURKE: OK.. Page 2 �OMOH: So... when his father passed away he became the “husband” to the wives, so if anything they had that needed to get done they had to ask his permission. So he became in charge of sending his brothers and sisters to schools and his immediate brothers and sisters sent his half brothers and sisters to schools and be sure that they didn’t get into trouble and try and support them in what they wanting. So it was kind of... kind of weird because he came, he had his own kids which me and my siblings but then had twenty or thirty other kids also. BURKE: Right OMOH: Actually, I met an aunt that’s younger than me (laugh) OMOH: (laugh) So I was like.., interesting! So he, he has been taking care of a lot of stuff. So. BURKE: Wow. OMOH: Don’t really know too much more about his side of the family, I know more about my mom’s side of the family because they were more active in my life. And I have a lot of cousins and aunts there on her side also that I met more of when I went to Nigeria in February. It’s kind of over welcoming because it’s not like the customary “Oh, I have five six cousins or maybe ten cousins...” Just on both sides it’s like there’s sixty cousins here and then one-hundred and fifty here. Cuz’ each, each wife like say has like five or six kids, BURKE: Right. OMOH: And my mom was telling me back in the day that they tried to have a lot of kids so that they have more kids working and helping you around the house or the farm or whatever. So each, imagine, each child having six kids and then one of those six going to make six more... BURKE: Mhm OMOH: It’s a lot. Actually we only have, my mom only has five kids and that’s kind of small compared to her other brothers and sisters (laugh) So BURKE: (Laugh) wow OMOH: Not to many Nigerians these days have big nuclear family. Most of them keep like two three, maybe four kids. But kind of like I was learning the history here, down south mostly like it wasn’t uncommon for someone to have twelve, thirteen kids. I was like wow that’s a lot because usually because of lack of health care back in the day it wasn’t uncommon for a child to day in child birth or maybe three, four years old it would die because of some sickness... BURKE: Right. OMOH: So, everyone’s just poppin’ out kids (laugh) helped them out. So, just trying to keep my answers straight here, what was the other question you asked? Page 3 �BURKE: About the community involvement OMOH: You mean like my volunteer experience? BURKE: Yeah, anything! OMOH: Well, I try to stay, whatever community I’m in, I try to stay very involved. Like for example, I currently tutor math to kids at the Gerald Ford Job Court. BURKE: OK. OMOH: I don’t know if you’re familiar with that... its a center for at risk youth between ages of sixteen to twenty-four, where they usually go there basically if they’ve dropped out of school or they’re trying to reorganize their lives. So we help them get their GED or get their H.S. credits. Usually these kids are, like I said dropped out, or been gang related activity or been bused for drugs or something and it is kind of like a fresh start for them to get to live on the facilities so they don’t have to worry about housing because some of them might have been homeless or been in some situations where they don’t want to go back. So which actually made them go in the streets in the first place, so they don’t have to worry about food or housing. They don’t have to worry about paying for GED, pre-testing, or ACT classes so they get their GED, high school credit and also help them apply for college and also get ajob. So we also have training modules, like training to get a CNA positions or different trades. We also have a trade’s school. So I volunteer there, and I also work at Cross Roads High School, which is an alternative high school where kids also similar to the kids at Gerald Ford Job Court. Except these kids haven’t been kicked out of high school they’ve just been kicked out of their community high school because they got into trouble, violations, got into fight or were at risk or injuring themselves or other students. So they are trying to get back the credits so they can graduate on time or just graduate period, because some of them they’re still attached to getting a GED versus a high school degree. So we’re helping them with that and the after school program is from 2:30 to 5:45, I’d say 5:45, so that after they get from school we provide them with another snack because some kids don’t have food at home. So we give them that, and then we have some kind of activity to make them involved and show them that you can still have fun without any violence or illegal activities. hat word am I looking for? Incorporate to their activities that they do. And then we give them free time from them to either play basketball or we bring out the wii system or something so that we can also reinforce so that the healthy living aspect to where you have to have some healthy physical activity so you have a healthy youth. Excuse me, so after that we also give them a school bus system to get back home so they don’t have to get on the city bus where they might meet somebody that they might get into a fight with. Again because these kids, we try to get them out of their atmosphere of violence and from that community of people they might know of people that might make them go back to their habits. And what else do I do... I used to do a lot more when I was at Grand Valley because I had a lot more time but now I try to be limiting my volunteer activities to a minimum so I can actually get a job. So apart from that, that’s basically what I do... Oh Yea! I have one more thing actually, I might become affiliated with west Michigan non-profit something.. .collation for a non-racist environment. Where we are basically going to be pushing different initiatives for students and community members to become familiar with the effects of racism, poverty, homelessness and all of that and seeing how we can come together as a community strengthening Page 4 �ourselves and help the less fortunate. So... there’s a lot of words in the title, I’m gonna get it right one day. But that’s what I’m looking into becoming involved with, actually I had an interview for that today so, I try to stay involved in my community. BURKE: Very cool, so now do you want to tell us about your actually move to the United States? Like what was that like for you and your family? OMOH: Oh, yea I could do that. I can’t even explain it, we went from being overwhelmed, and to culture shocked to a whole different sensations it smelt different here. I grew up around a lot of trees so we had fresh air and then coming into Chicago you could smell the congestion. We have European people in Nigeria so I didn’t really come across someone who wasn’t black. So either most people were black or brown or some variation of that skin tone. So coming here where I saw white, I saw Asian I saw Hispanic and a whole bunch I was like ‘oh my gosh people look so different!” I used to go like, I came here in the fifth grade, so I used to touch peoples hair a lot which in America I learned there is personal space (laugh) OMOH: You can’t just touch people hair! Cuz I’ve never touched anyone else’s hair that wasn’t like mine. I thought it was amazing when I first saw somebody with green eyes. It was kind of scary because I couldn’t believe somebody had colored eyes! (laugh) But I mean in Nigeria we have cable we weren’t like back woods people. I’ve seen on TV that people have blonde hair but I’ve never in real life seen the green and blue eyes except for like brown eyes. So that was amazing! And then I finally got to eat pizza! So when I was younger we had cartoon network in Nigeria and I used to wish I had this magic ring (giggle) where, cuz you have the Chucky Cheese commercials, I would just rub and pizza would appear! (laugh) So (lots of laughing!) OMOH: So my first experience with American food, when we got off the plane my Uncle picked us up, and we went to McDonalds. And my brother had chicken nuggets, which he thought, was like foods from the Gods (laugh) and then I had pizza! It took me awhile to get used to it, I wasn’t expecting it to be as wet, with the sauce! BURKE: Right! OMOH: Because on TV I saw like oh yea pizza cheesy but I didn’t expect the sauce! So I got used to that, but the food its, well for a lot of time I wouldn’t eat chicken here because I don’t know if you guys grew up on a farm or seen what an actual chicken looks like and a farm not like genetically enhanced, a chicken is very smaller than the chicken in Mejier! So I was just thinking this chicken is nasty like on drugs! Cuz it wasn’t like chicken in Nigeria! (laughter from both) And then eggs are like white! I grew up eating brown eggs! So I was like “oh my gosh!” The chicken and the eggs are different in America! So I didn’t wanna’ eat that. The water tasted so different, because in Nigeria we can’t just drink water out of the faucet. Ya know, like we have to get water from the tap, boil it and let it cool down then scoop the top because all the sediments sink to the bottom so you don’t get sick. So you take the scoop from top and put it in the refrigerator. So I had a ball drinking water from the tap! (laughter) Page 5 �It’s just the little things people take for granted. And then we came like around August, and then two months later it started snowing. I had never seen snow in my entire life! So (laughter) grown adults, me, my mom, my dad, brothers and sisters we just went outside and stood in the snow and had like our tongues out, the snows dripping and people are walking outside Chicago and was like what’s wrong with these people? Little did they know we had never seen snow before! So that’s one of the experiences I had in America, one of the few things that I do cherish. what else shocked me? Before coming to America I had never been on a plane before. BURKE: Really? OMOH: So we had one of the longest flights ever so I boarded and the plane’s flight was like sixteen hours. And so we finally came here and potato chips, never had potato chips before. when we talk about chips, at least in my family; we refer to potato’s that have been cut up, like homemade fries. But never had potato chips so experiencing the whole cookies and all those junk food because we weren’t really big on junk food. Especially not in my village at least, we had candy but the candy we had was like one hundred times less sugary (laughter) then the candy here. Like one jolly rancher is like three packs of candy in the ones I grew up with. So getting sugar, my first ever sugar rush was amazing! (laughter) What else did I go through? like I said the culture shock , in reference to culture shock they always talk about like for an example stereotypical white person teaching them to deal with the black person . So you might go to college, you might see more Native Americans or Hispanics but they never really talk about the reverse. like they always take for granted just because you’re a minority you’re “diversified.” And that’s not true at all! Because I went through a culture shock, the biggest culture shock of my life when I came to America! Seeing so many different languages, so many different cultures, so many people that look so different! Because I feel that and culture is not about race; it’s about who you are what you have to bring, it’s about music, it’s about culture, it’s about your perspective and I had a very ignorant perspective on life. I knew based on TV that there was American’s, there were Europeans that looked different but based on TV I had never been to America before. I always saw, I always thought that everybody in America was rich, everybody was white, mostly, and that everybody was happy. And then my reference to black American’s was that they were always fighting amongst each other, only wanted to do rap and didn’t want anything to do with good things. And I came from that by watching TV! because we got CNN in Nigeria and we get cable so I see all these movies and a typical movie black people are in usually for a while they had all those movies in the nineties that came out about that it was always, always the black high school student and here comes the white teacher in to save the horrible kids and so they can go to school and try to help them read, that’s all the movies that we had! And on TV we saw that black people was always wanting to shoot and blood related movies and then you turned on MTV and always saw black people rapping so that’s what our view was. And it was very ignorant. I never knew the first black person that I met, the first black American that I met I asked him. It was very ignorant and I offended a lot of people. But I mean, I tried to apologize like I’m sorry I just came to America I don’t know what’s going on. And then the reverse thing happened. I used to feel really bad for being ignorant but then I stopped because (laughter) America is ignorant too. I had people tell me, not ask, tell me that, (I think I’ve told you this before) that I was a savage and that all my people lived in caves and we walk around naked and we hunt our own food. And I said regardless, I don’t know what part of Africa does that, I’m sure there’s some people who hunt their own foods but in Nigeria we Page 6 �have supermarkets (laughter) and we have forks and knifes and we also live in houses. There some people who don’t live under a house or an attached roofs, they might be poor they might live in an area where they are using their resources. Like in the village our house was made from clay. the red sand and then you mold that into brick and everything and used that. Why would you spend thousands, our currency is not that, but why would you spend thousands or Nira to ship cement from the city or buy cement blocks when you could just use your resources. BURKE: Right. OMOH: But, from an outsider looking in, because it’s not cement or plaster or whatever we are poor. So I was told that and it was very, well really shocke me was my experience with black American and white American’s. And I hate to always say black and white, I know there’s Hispanics and Asian decent but my experience mostly is with black and white. And I was really shocked when my white friends, I had to keep saying white, um do you prefer Caucasian? BURKE: No you’re fine OMOH: (laughter) Sorry, I don’t wanna offend anybody! (laughter) My experience with white people is so much more better than my experience with black people. It was not until I attending college here that I saw black people were “not as friendly.” I started learning about America’s history, black history, the black on black crime, the hatred, and all the things going up to the typical black male the typical black woman. And I had a lot of black people tell me to go back to Africa. That, they hated me because they thought that I didn’t know their heritage so they hated me based on relationships with other Africans who previously had said they weren’t real “blacks” because they didn’t know their mother land or something like that. So, growing up in American I gravitated more towards the Hispanics, the Whites, people from Asian descent, and really stayed away from black people until I came to high school. I had no choice I grew up in an all-black neighborhood, and I was referred to as “African booty scratcher.” I don’t even know what that means! Like you have to be African to scratch you’re booty!? BURKE: (laughter) I don’t know! (laughter) OMOH: I don’t understand! (laughter) So, I was referred to as “African booty scratcher” and other derogatory words and they would hate me on site. BURKE: (sorrowful) wow. OMOH: Not just I don’t like you. This is hate, hatred. And they always say when you think about racism, what do you think of? Do you think of white racist against blacks? They don’t really talk about black racists against white or black racist against black. And its racism, it’s not a dislike when an African doesn’t like an African American or vice versa. So, I never dealt with racism my entire life growing up in Nigeria. And I’m sure, there’s there is rivalries between each clan or the most I ever dealt with in Nigeria was like how the Christians and Muslims and the religious wars but at far as race it can’t really be racism because we are all the same race! We just have different ethnicities. BURKE: Right, OK. Page 7 �OMOH: Coming to America, I’d never hear of anybody hating on site just based on your skin color. And I had more racism from the black American’s and til this day I’ve still had more racism on black Americans ever then on white Americans! And, I can’t understand that because reading in the textbooks or I have a lot of African American classes and a lot of African American professors they talked to be about their struggles and I learned that I’m very appreciative to learn about the history. But they never really touch on it and what I would like to know more about is why black people might see African’s as a threat? But yea that would be my experience with culture shock. I don’t know I kind of rambled on a little bit (laughter) BURKE: (polite) That’s OK. So do you… off of what you said do you ever remember family members or any other friends being like specifically being discriminated against, like in your education, or employment or socially? Something like that have an effect on you? OMOH: Yeah. I mean I grew up in an all-black neighborhood and I saw, I saw it all. Especially, like, I grew up on the south side of Chicago so I don’t think I sound like I’m from Chicago; I’ve adopted this generic accent, American accent. I learned early on and also my family members did that if you do not speak correct American English it can be seen as a weakness, as a form of you as a dark tally against your intelligence. So, our family incorporated this accent, so that we could blend it sort of like a chameleon so that we could blend in with the citizens so that we don’t stand out. And in an all-black neighborhood, if you wanna pick up an accent it’s kind of like survival. If you sound like you’re not from around here they are like whatch’ you doing over here? And then you get picked on and stuff like that and probably robbed or whatever, just not to fit into stereotypes. So I picked up this accent, being like a black person I was able to I don’t know the word, filterate, is it filterate? I don’t know it’s a word that sounds like that. I’m trying to use big words (laughter). Into the black society around my neighborhood and if we go in groups like for example the Gerinoso which is like a version of Meijer here kind of. If we go to a store or like clothing store nobody would ask us for help. And if they did ask us if we actually needed help it was very cut down like this is what it is and then leave us alone versus if a white person came in they’d be like “oh are you ok are you ok” and everything. And then I had a white friend who thought it was funny to play these jokes where she would walk in and she would get helped and I would walk in and I wouldn’t get helped. And we both applied for ajob and I was more qualified than her and she get it and I didn’t. And she’ll go into these interviews and not even dress up! Like don’t even have a suit on and I would be like suited up and everything! Smelling good and everything! (laughter) Wouldn’t get the job. And she thought it was funny and least to say we are not friends anymore (laughter). But I was, I’ve experienced it, but it was kind of like experiencing what my friends were experiencing but it was like an out of body experience because we somebody was being racist or having racial slurs thrown out, it was like I knew it was bad but it didn’t hurt me because I didn’t grow up here! Versus my black friends would get upset. So, like going to the supermarket and then the owners trail you around trying to make sure you’re not stealing anything. I’ve been through all of that but I didn’t know what the meaning of it was, as far as my friends getting mad and saying oh because I’m its because I’m black. I didn’t grow up feeling like I had to prove myself in a white community. So, I don’t know I don’t think I am the best one to answer that question because when I think about racism I only know racism in learning about it and experiencing it, but not growing up in it. Does that make sense? Page 8 �BURKE: Mhm. OMOH: Yea. I don’t have like family or my grandparents tell me what they went through in the civil rights movement I’m just for it and learning about it. So, sorry (laughter) Sorry I don’t know what else to say. BURKE: (laughter). It’s OK. So, how would you describe your own identity? OMOH: Hmm. As what? As an American as a women? As a Nigerian? BURKE: Anything. How you perceive yourself. OMOH: Hmm. I perceive myself as (sigh) I would like to say strong black women. And when I say black I don’t mean African, Jamaican, or black American, just black because that’s my race. I used to always say that I was, I went from identifring as Nigerian, to African, to Black and vice versa, like it depends on how I feel. I do wear, my personality on me so, I do, you’ll always see me with some African jewelry on or my family we always grow up with bright colors so I’ll always have bright colors on me. Or something with flowers! Something just like that’s how I express myself! But since I’ve been in American, I’ve felt like the more years I spend in America, the less I can identified as being from African descent. I don’t really have a lot of “African” friends, I didn’t; so I feel like I’m losing myself which is why I pressingly cut my hair so that I can get back to my roots, and even that I felt was kind of like was making me a laughing stock because why would I have to cut my hair off to feel Africa-, I should always feel African. So, being born in one country and then growing up in another, messes with your head. And then I have another friend I don’t think she’d prefer, I’m not even gonna’ say her name... BURKE: That’s OK. OMOH: But she was born in Ethiopia but she grew up here. And I’ve had multiple talks with her and I highly respect her and so far she’s the only one that can understand me when I say that I identify as being African feeling kind of loss. Because there is core values that you learn in your ancestry, who you are that, you learn at a certain age. And I moved from Nigeria where I could attain that. So the only thing that I know, the only thing that I can identify as African is my name, how I look cuz’ we do have a look (laughter). It’s stereotypical! Nigerians you can’t really tell if they’re African because we can blend in with the normal American blacks, but some Africans you can just look and they’re African! And I am so jealous about that, because I want to be able to walk down the street and somebody look at me and say look she’s African. I don’t, I look like a black American. So, growing up in another country, I just feel like I’ve lost my roots, So, I don’t know yet how to identify. I identify as an adjective as strong, motivated, and independent. But as far as my cultural definition, that is something I am striving to complete, within myself. So (laughter) You’re laughing at me! BURKE: (polite laughter) I am not laughing. OMOH: So yea I don’t identify with that yet. BURKE: OK. Was there a particular moment either growing up or in your adulthood where you felt you were treated differently because of your identity? Page 9 �OMOH: (long sigh) Yea... I don’t wanna talk about them (laugh) ... BURKE: If you don’t want to that’s OK. OMOH: I mean I could... it’s just... growing up in American has been rough. So rough. It’s like I don’t fit in with anywhere. I feel like I’m just this zombie... and to give you a heads up, it’s like to Americans, Americans see me as black. They don’t say that in Nigeria. Black Americans see me as being African they would never claim me as being a black American. But Nigerian, and most of my African friends don’t see me as African because I’ve been here for thirteen years and I can turn off my accent, turn on and off; but the strong edge of my accent has been lost because it’s been dulled down by the )American accent. So, I am neither American, black American or African, to them. I will always know what I am but speaking in my “accent” to like my Nigerian or African friends, they’ve said that multiple times they don’t even consider me Nigerian or African because once you come to America, apparently you lose that. And speaking in my accent I actually had a friend, a couple of friends tell me they couldn’t take me seriously because they thought that I was faking my accent. I had to prove with birth records, to a couple of other African friends that I was African. So just imagine that it’s like you aren’t American because you aren’t born here, other people see you as black American, the black American’s or African Americans, I don’t know which one to say because sometimes I’ve had friends who prefer to black and prefer to be African American so I say black American, kind of in the middle (laugh). So the black Americans don’t see me as being black and would never claim me as being black, and my African people don’t claim me as being African. So in a situation where you say based on my identity, there’s a lot. But to sum it up it has just been a learning experience and I feel that I would never want my child to go through what I’m going through. I mean I’m very grateful for what the sacrifices my parents made so that I can have a very good education and bright future. But sometimes I don’t know if it’s worth it, identifying as being African. I remember one day, high school they have say culture day and you get to wear your countries clothing or if you’re Irish you wear your Irish clothing or if your Hispanic, I know a lot of my Hispanic friends they always wore their favorite soccer team jersey or Africans or the Asians we always wear our culture guard. And I remember I was just so happy to finally wear that and be in a safe environment. Because when I first came to America, in Nigeria we have what you call English clothes which is what you wear like T-shirt and jeans and then you have your culture clothes wear BURKE: Mhm. OMOH: and I always like wearing my cultural clothes and when you wanna’ impress somebody you put on your culture clothes, what I’m saying. So I wanted to impress my classmates! And I walked in full on we call it Bubira above my head tied and I was like woo I’m about to do it looking good! And the silence that met when I first came to class was like deafening. It was heartbreaking because I was so excited to share my culture and it was like animosity. Somebody told me that I looked like I had stolen a tablecloth and wrapped it around myself. (sigh) it was just rough. And then at such a young age being so proud of who you are and then that kids in high school and elementary school they’re rough they’re mean but that’s all so you think that everybody else is like that at such a young age being met with such a negative response for showing who you are kind of just makes you not want to show the world who you are anymore. So, I don’t know still trying to working on who I am (laughter). But I feel like I’m getting better. I just wish that I didn’t have to go through that. I hope I answered your question (laughter). Page 10 �BURKE: Yeah, yep! Were there people in your life that encouraged you to think about the discrimination in society? OMOH: Oh yeah! Especially like my teachers, my professors, church members they always encourage me especially when they knew that I wasn’t from America. They always believe that knowledge is power and empowering yourself like even though I didn’t I don’t identify as being black in America I am going to be judged as being black American because of my skin tone. So I need to know quick, very quickly the history of black Americans. I remember I took a gen-ed course here, perspectives on African American gender males, and they were talking about all these famous black people and the struggles of the civil rights movement and I’m just like asking questions. And then they’re like yeah such and such and I’m like. Everybody like and the professors picking on people like yeah what did this person do and I’m like studied the book (laughter). And he got so upset with me! And oh, he made me cry. BURKE: Awh. OMOH: And he was like you should know you’re history, you’re in college and he was like, oh who’s that guy, George Washington or somebody with the black panthers? I don’t know who these people are! This is not my country this is not my history. And he was like you should know your history! Basically saying I was a failure to the black people and I was just like I got so upset. One of my friends in the class she had to stop me because I started crying because I was so upset! I was like this is not my culture! And he was like what do you mean, you are a black American? No! I am Nigerian! I might not look like the stereotypically African. But I took this class so that I could learn more about black Americans. And he was just like, he was stunned. And I was like you have a doctorate degree but you are very ignorant. You just assumed because I was black in this black American class I had to be an African American. So, that’s only one of the few negative responses. But after he knew that he came around and he was very patient with me and it was kind of, kind of embarrassing to only know that there was these people that helped free some slaves. They really don’t tell you a lot in high school about civil rights movements and all that slavery and expeditions and all that . So, he taught me and he was like , I’m sorry, well he never said I’m sorry I take that back. (laughter) Well, I felt like he was sorry for judging that and I think the way he apologized was to be patient with me and challenge me throughout the whole semester about like learning about black history. Knowing about what racism is and that there’s not just white on black there is black on white, there’s black on black there is Hispanic on white, Hispanic on black, racism is racism! You define it to the very minimum; I didn’t know there were so many different definitions for racism. Like racism it’s just not hating another race, it’s that feeling your race is superior to another one. I never knew all that. So I learned about that and I had a lot of church members sit around and say back in my day we couldn’t ride in the front of the bus and now ya’ll just don’t wanna’ sit in front of the bus . Stuff like that so, I had a lot of people influential in my life and know about such things. BURKE: Were there any articles or books films or speeches or anything that influenced your thinking about race or ethnic issues? OMOH: I wouldn’t say films or books would tribute to the way I look at race, more to my upbringing. I didn’t grow up in a house of hate. I know people always say I didn’t grow up in a house of hate, my people my parents are very tolerant. I just didn’t grow up like that, and I don’t even think people realize Page 11 �off the bat what they are saying is racist. But derogatory because their parents are saying it to them and that it’s OK. My parents brought me up to see people as individuals regardless of their skin color. BURKE: Mhrn. OMOH: So, I don’t know. I just feel like everybody is equal and I am going to dislike you if you give me a reason to dislike you. I’m a very fun-loving person; it takes a lot for me not to like you. So I don’t know, a lot of people, especially in America, which I don’t understand because I could understand were in a country everybody looked alike for you to be racist against other people, but in American where nobody looks alike and we have so many middle and in between races, why people hate you on site based on your skin tone. I mean I’ve read a lot of books that , especially working as a resident assistant having those conferences and seminars about equality and diversity and all that stuff, I’m sorry I don’t really. Some people do need diversity training and nobody is above that (sigh) I don’t know I feel like it is a problem where in a country you have to teach people to like each other. Why don’t we just like each other? Are you telling me that if you first saw me and I had the stereotypically blond hair and blue eyes you would like me versus brown hair, brown eyes? I don’t understand. So, I don’t know I don’t like reading about race because you never find anything good about race. Like you always saw oh the culture but if you Google racism or race you always see articles about whathappened in 60s 70s 80s or before that and its really bad and I don’t really read books about racism. I’m sorry, this is very depressing. So the way I feel about my communication with different races with how I grew up and how I was raised I respect every person despite whichever age ethnicity or race they are. BURKE: Has this changed since you moved to western Michigan specifically? OMOH: No. But what has changed is um my tolerance level (laughter) BURKE: OK. OMOH: goodness. I’ve gone up and down in my tolerance level in dealing with people who are not as open-minded. I still don’t understand why people refer to as like oh west Michigan. Apparently west Michigan is like not as open-minded as east Michigan? I don’t know the difference; I grew up in Chicago so I just do the Michigan thing that people usually do. I do know that something simple as even going to Meijer and walking across the street I get looked at! Especially since I cut back up my hair. It’s not just like oh there’s people walking across the street I’m bored so I’ll look. No I get stares of death! Especially, from the older generation. And I still can’t get used to it I’ve had professors, you can always tell how professors are going to react to you based on their age. And the ones that are mostly in their 40s or 50s are like oh yea equal opportunity and like yea all equal opportunity! And once you start getting into the57, 58 and 60s you start seeing, cuz if they’re like 60 or 70 they were probably around during the civil rights movement and all that and those kind of ideals don’t just leave. And I’ve actually had to report one professor! BURKE: Really? OMOH: Yea and he got investigated and found out that it wasn’t just me that he was being racist to. Because I had a lot of professor and teachers in high school that I know didn’t like me and treated me Page 12 �differently because of my race but that’s just character building. And I always felt like if I reported it. nobody would do anything about it. But this one like I just couldn’t let go. Its one thing if you humiliate me in private and down my intelligence but if you do it in front of a class of 70, 80 people, like biology and science classes are huge! And it’s like only three black people in there and you pick on them and make us look like fools and feel insignificant. I knew I had to say something when my friend she was also in that class, she was black and the black people always sat in the front cuz we try and give the professor no reason that we’re not smart by sitting in the back. We’d sit in the front and she came to me almost in tears because she couldn’t look her professor in the eye. It was the same professor that I had. Every time that he would look at her she would turn her face away because he made her that scared. All three of us were scared to say anything to anybody because we didn’t want our grades to suffer. BURKE: Mhm OMOH: So... Gosh I think I might cry... I’m going to relax; it’s okay, sorry. Alright BURKE: I finally worked up the nerve to go and report how we were being treated and nothing came of it. BURKE: Nothing? OMOH: Nothing. He was investigated, they found out and said that he has some social disability because he is always doing research and he hasn’t come in contact with minority students and that so he doesn’t know how to deal with that. So basically what you’re telling me is schools like Grand Valley promote racism as long as you’re over sixty years old. And what really got me so jaded and upset was the fact that the supervisor told me that she cannot guarantee my safety. BURKE: Wow OMOH: I don’t have words, almost she said she couldn’t guarantee if I could be safe if I made it public, cause they were investigating underneath the radar. And if I actually put my name on paper, she couldn’t guarantee my safety, and she couldn’t guarantee that my grades would not suffer. She told me that it would be in my best interest to wait until I graduate, wait until I left the class to make a formal complaint. BURKE: Wow OMOH: This is at Grand Valley in this day in age. So I went home crying and I was just so upset, and finally after the class, I went back and said okay I’m ready, I’d like to make a complaint. Ohhhhhhhhh we can’t make a complaint they gave me some silly run around about how he had some social disability and they investigated and blah blah blah and it was ok. Found out from other sources that because I had said something, other students started to say things, other black students. Still wouldn’t say anything. I had other students in my class that I didn’t know, white students, who would raise their hand and ask a question, and he will answer. And then I would ask a question and he would say, “I’m not answering that right now”. And I had another student, we weren’t really close but she knew me, I asked a question and he said he wouldn’t answer and would have nothing to do with this, and I tell you I’m not lying, said the same exact question flow verbatim and he answered it and she was so upset that he answered, that in Page 13 �front ofthe whole class called him out. And said, “When Esi asked you this question youwouldn’t answer it, why would you answer it for me right now? And what he said? “I don’t want to talk about that right now.” And turned around and went back to theboard. She was so upset; she went and reported to the same person that you report to, the advisor. And it wasn’t until she and some other students from like my lab class, I also had him for lab. BURKE: Mhrn OMOH: Revolted, and were like “we aren’t going to stand for this!” and it kind of warmed my heart because I didn’t know half of these people and made a formal complaint that they finally said they were going to do something about it, this was like a semester later and I was like no, no, I don’t want to do anything about it. This is the reason why, I don’t know if you heard anything about this, but a lot of black people don’t have any faith in the police, they feel like if something goes wrong and they report it, they are either not going to do anything about it or believe them, and nothing is going to come of it. Like if you call the police in a black neighborhood no one is going to come versus, an hour later, versus if they call in a rich neighborhood they will be there in like five minutes. So they just reinforced the whole idea that me and my other friends in the class that were black were like well you should of known better, they wouldn’t have done anything and it took people from another race to say something for you to come back and say okay now we will pursue it, and I was like no, out of your own words you could not guarantee my safety. So, my experiences in America as far as race, coming to west Michigan, have been different. There has always been racism everywhere, , but there’s never, I’ve never dealt with it as much as I came here. Living here. More ignorance than racism though, I’ll say that. But me being an R.A. actually put me in that position where I could serve as a resource to teach people. I know a lot of programs, a lot of students didn’t want to come because they’re like oh its race, all they are going to talk about is white and black racism, but I’m like no, I’m just trying to let how to recognize the signs of racism. Like if you see a peer being picked on by a professor from another race, that doesn’t mean you have to think “Oh racism”, but you have to be aware to see the signs, like if that person is constantly being put down by that professor of another race, you need to be able to see that and a lot of students I find out that they never saw it like that. In Michigan, especially west Michigan people, that live in Holland or Hudsonville, those are the people that I struggle more with because they’re just like I cannot know that, why can’t I just say that the professor doesn’t like the student? BURKE: Mhm OMOH: Just teaching them that and my tolerance is high for ignorance. BURKE: Were there any other times that you confronted any discrimination? OMOH: Yeah.... Ha-ha, yeah .... Ha-ha I’ve confronted a lot. The most stressful ones were when I was an R.A. between residents. The N-word, I’ve never liked it, I’ve never said it, and I don’t know why people say it to each other. But the N-word being tossed around a lot, the derogatory remarks based on race, not just race too, sexual preference and all of that. But the one that happened to me that really hurt the most was my junior year of college and it was back then when Obarna was running for president, and , it was like when the decision finally came out that he was going to win the election, it was a whole bunch Page 14 �of people at Kleiner, like , watching on big screens on the T.V. and you could just see right when they said it, the black people were like EEEEEEEEE and then I’m not going to say all the white people but they were like in race caps, like the blacks were over here and the whites were over there and I’m telling it was no joke, I don’t even know why you had to be black against white but it was like that here at Grand Valley, and you could just see their faces, it was just like “oh wow...” the racial slurs started to be thrown around, I think they closed Kleiner early that night, because people were just crazy and people were sitting there saying that they were going to move to Canada, which I don’t know why they were saying they were going to move to Canada, I don’t understand the significance of that, something about they don’t have a black president, I don’t what they were saying, but I walking and how far Pickard is from Kleiner, and I’m walking back and three girls from Kistler opened up their window and just started throwing racial slurs at me, as I was walking, and it was kind of dark, and how those lamps illuminate you. So they were like “her you black girl blah blah blah, n-word, f-you, blah blah blah, Obama should’ve never won, I’m gonna come get you, blah blah blah”. I was like, I was so upset because for like 5 seconds I forget I was an R.A. and my instinct was to go up to that room and beat the mess out of every last one of those females. But the voice of reason came in and I went to my other co-worker and this was before your time, she was a multicultural assistant to my resident assistant, she was like the race issue person, and talked to her about it. And then they called Dewyon, and he was upset and was like “I’m really sorry that you had to go through all that.” He knew that as an R.A. I couldn’t respond the way I should’ve responded so they had this big investigation and they tried to find the people, and they never could. how those windows are, and you could never place a room to a window, and it was dark, oh am I going too much? BURKE: Nope OMOH: Okay, so they never placed a room so they could never find the people but I just felt targeted and singled out, and just because Obama was president. I never have voted in my life, and one of the reasons that I have never voted is because, well there are two reasons. One is because I don’t really feel like I’m an American, I don’t feel like I should have a say in what goes on even though I am a citizen and applied for that citizenship, I wasn’t born here and I don’t feel like I’m invested here. I feel that I am invested in my community but I don’t feel like I should have a say in the American Government. And secondly, I don’t vote for people that I don’t know anything about. I feel like I should be able to do research, and if I like your views then I will vote. But I’m not just going to vote because you’re a democrat or you’re a republican, or you like schools or you want to give woman health care, I want to be able to do research and I don’t know how to do research and either way I’m always like I like what you’re saying, I like what you’re saying, I like what you’re saying, but I can’t just pick. I don’t like what you’re saying sometimes, or I don’t like what you’re saying sometimes, it just never makes a difference so I don’t vote. And me being targeted, I didn’t even vote for the man! I felt like I was targeted because apparently every black person voted for Obama, so the people were against Obama, or targeting, the whole week there were targets on peoples white boards, people getting into fights, I think there was like a gun incident too. BURKE: Wow Page 15 �OMOH: A lot of stuff happens at Grand Valley but they are very hush-hush. I think they surrounded a black guy and it was like three white people confronted the black guy and told him, something that had to do with the election and were calling him the n-word, and said they were going to letch him. BURKE: This was at Grand Valley? OMOH: Grand Valley girl. BURKE: Wow OMOH: So, haha I try to put it in the back of my mind so I don’t think about it but you’re questions are very deep haha. BURKE: haha I’m sorry! OMOH: It’s okay, it’s okay! I think we should go to the next question! BURKE: Will you describe any personal hero’s that have had an influence on your life? OMOH: Heros 9 hhh... I don’t think I have any hero’s. I think I have people that I greatly admire. BURKE: Okay OMOH: And um, I admire, can I say names? BURKE: Yeah! OMOH: Okay, Dewyon White? The purposes living center director of Grand Valley housing, I admire him a lot because I was I became an RA my junior year, my freshman and sophomore year I was very angry, not as angry as I was in high school, but I was a very angry woman about all the same things, especially about racial stuff happening, I was very angry about how things were turning out to be in this world, and he took me and groomed me basically he was one of the people that, also Tacara Lyn, she was his supervisor, they basically groomed me to the woman that I am today and being more tolerant and understanding of people. Yeah, pastor, couple of co-workers, family, they’ve all played an instrumental role but my hero, I don’t like that term just for the fact that hero can be sin ominous worship sometimes, I don’t really have a hero, because it’s like put this person on a pedestal and I don’t think it’s fair to put anyone on a pedestal because then when they can’t meet those standards their world comes crashing down and I always hear people who have hero’s and for example they say this man who has a wife, but then he cheats on her, now that affects you because you felt this man was on this pedestal and that backlashes and that’s just a way I protect myself. I have a lot of people I admire who play an instrumental role in my life but I don’t have any hero’s. Sorry! BURKE: No that’s fine! Were you involved in any civil rights organizations or anything like that while at Grand Valley? OMOH: No, the most ethnic thing I ever did was got involved in the ethnic council, quite honestly the last thing you could say but I really don’t like black history month for the simple fact that, well I wouldn’t Page 16 �mind celebrating black history every month it’s just to have that one month, February, like I told you I don’t really like learning about what the slaves went through, I’m just a very emotional person and when I hear about all of that, it’s just like wow! In this country, are you serious? And then the same thing is happening in my country and it’s not more of a slavery thing but it’s more of genocide, up north in Nigeria the Muslims are killing Christians because they see Christians as not worthy. I’m not saying all Muslims but the terrorist groups, they always say Muslims but terrorist are only like 1%, and you never hear about the God loving Muslims, you only hear about the terrorist. Actually, in one of the villages that my mom grew up in, they actually went there and killed everyone in the village, it wasn’t just shootings, they took a machete and chopped people up. Babies, headless babies. So I don’t like black history month because when it’s on TV. They always want to show something about hangings and I understand that you need to recognize that but I try to stay away from civil rights because that whole inequality stuff is too emotional for me to deal with. I support it from the outskirts like the civil rights walk but as far as actively involved I stay away from it. BURKE: Okay, can you describe the involvement in your church and how that has had an influence on your life? OMOH: I grew up Roman Catholic but a couple of years ago I started going to this church named Grace of the Nation’s Church and it’s a Cogic church which means “Church of God in Christ,” I’ve worked there in an organization where they help international students and international members, because it’s an international church. We have people from Jamaica, people from Nigeria, , people from South America, Mexico and even Korea. So we have a ministry that deals with international people and also we have different ministries where we raise money and donations for a little ministry that we have in Benisala, in Haiti, and in Iraq and in South Africa. We actually have one of our South African pastors that we support coming up to grace, so me being directly involved in that kind of keeps me grounded in trying to get back into my roots of helping international students and everything, and I also do hospitality which I really like because I am in front of the house greater so I’m the first person they see before they enter to the church, which is kind of cool because you can always the newcomers they are kind of nervous and I’m like “Hi welcome to Grace!” and then they totally get into the grooves of things and get welcomed. So me having involvement in my church gives me another avenue to get involved within my community and also it will keep me grounded with people who are international and who might have went through the same things I did and try to let them know that there is light at the end of the tunnel, and that not all Americans have you haha. And I’m like , don’t listen to everybody. When I first came here I had a lot of black people say, “don’t trust white people!” “They’ve got it in for you” “They are all racist!” so I’m letting them know to make their own decisions about people. BURKE: Have you ever experienced any discrimination towards your religion? OMOH: Yeah, it’s kind of sad though because I understand why, I have a lot of friends that do a lot of things and the one that I clash the most with is my gay or lesbian friends nine times out often I’d say all of them totally dislike Christians, most of them have had really bad experiences with Christians and I feel like because of that there is going to be a part of intimacy within my friends that I can never reach because they have this preconceived notions about Christianity. And I don’t blame them, not at all because I’ve also had Christian friends who are very unchristian who don’t accept people for who they Page 17 �are, so I’ve had a lot of friends, for example, like I said I am very active in my church and I like to invite people to come to my church, and when your friends are not church goers, they don’t really want to go and always say some kind of religious slurs, like “that’s too Christianity for me”, and it hurts. They might feel that they have problems in their gay or lesbian relationship and feel like they can’t talk to me about it because of my Christianity. But as far as people who hate me because I’m a Christian, no I haven’t had that happen. But once they find out they are bias towards me. Yeah, I have a lot of Muslim friends too, my closest friend, she is Saudi Arabian; I have a lot of friends that are different. Some of them might think that their religion is superior to mine. I just let them keep thinking that, whatever floats your boat because I’m secure in my religion. But as far as discrimination as in I don’t want to talk to you or be around you because you’re a Christian, no I haven’t had to deal with that. BURKE: How was it different going to high school in Chicago versus your school in Nigeria? OMOH: First of all, a lot more of racial diversity in America than in Nigeria. School here is a lot easier, which is good for me. We start school at a very early age and its education, education, education, I don’t ever remember relaxing. But it wasn’t bad and I didn’t complain because it was what everyone did, they went to school at 7:30am and it was over at 4:30pm and had tutoring, which was basically another school from 5:00pm to 8:30pm and then do homework and chores and start it all over again. I don’t think I ever relaxed and I didn’t have weekends, it’s been a long time, but I didn’t have to go to school on Saturdays but I had home school on that day, and Sundays I went to church, eat and then study because I had homework from regular day school and from tutoring also. But everyone else did it, so it wasn’t like I was the only one so I never complained. It was a social norm. The difference here is that I learn about different cultures such as European history, American history, but in Nigeria our history was focused on Britain, because we were colonized by the British, so we learn more about that. Difference that I don’t like here that I liked there is the option of learning of learning my own language, I feel that I would be a lot more fluent in it, so that’s another thing that I need to work on. Not being able to practice your language doesn’t necessary mean you’re going to lose it but you start thinking in a language, such as English. For example my parents used to ask me questions in my own language, but I would respond in English. I was never really 100% fluent, but I was speaking the equivalent of Spanglish, half Spanish half English, but now I can’t even do that! I just respond back in English. I wish they had more variety, instead of options for European but African. I’m happy they have Japanese, which isn’t very common, Chinese is more common than Japanese, but just a variety of languages is something that I miss. BURKE: Based on the different schooling systems that you have been a part of, can you describe any differences in the structure of learning? Such as critical thinking skills? OMOH: In Nigeria we push math and science. BURKE: Why is that? OMOH: Both of my parents were educators, and their theory on this, which I believe, is that they pushed math and science because we are a developing country. So we push and start school early, you graduate high school when you are 16, and you go on to college where you learn math and science, stereotypical Page 18 �but most Africans are either doctors or engineers, something math or science related. You go and get these good degrees and then give back to the community. So the high school college generation is the future of the country, what they specialize in will be what our country will develop in. The reason why the United States developed is because they have all this technology and resources, well it took someone to go into a higher level in college for them to invent all of these things. So we hope that one day, when we give back to our community that most of these people who went to other countries to get their degree in other things will one day rule our country, but they never end up coming back. If they came back with all of their education, and with enough people doing that, we would eventually rise as a nation. But people never do, so the solution is to focus more on math and science so one day we will do something very successful. BURKE: So how is that compared to finishing school here? OMOH: here is total opposite. In American they focus more on English literature, how you speak, more of life skills then technical skills. You always know your hard math and science, but they always stress and say oh if this math and science is not for you, then that’s okay! You can be a professor in psychology or English or something like that. In Nigeria you don’t have an option. Especially from your parents, you have to do well and success is only measured on whether or not you do something in the math or science field. I’m sure there are very success English professors, but for Nigeria success is only if you become a doctor or engineer or business. You don’t really hear people who are happy that have other careers, even if they are giving back to the community, they only want people who are successful. So there’s a lot more stress on you getting good grades in Nigeria than there is here. If you’re not getting good grades, than you’re not making the best of what you’re given. If you are a C average student, you better be the best C average student that you are. In Nigeria, if you get a B or B+, that’s just as bad as an F. I’m so serious. I went to sleep so many times crying, I remember I had my first B that I got in college, cried for days. My mom and dad yelled at me, you could have sworn that I got an F on my report card or something. They said “are those other people better than you? Why can’t you get an A?” I was crying because it’s not bad getting a B on your transcript, but when your parents see that B, they are going to be very upset with you. So I like America better, it’s a lot more stress free. BURKE: So we know that you went to Grand Valley for school, but is there anything else you would like to talk about within your experience? Such as the environment, we talked about student organizations already, but are there any other networks that you did? OMOH: Give me an example BURKE: Was the student body interested in civil rights, or did you ever network or attend meetings with students who share your identity from other colleges? OMOH: From other colleges no I’ve never really met with other Universities, but the African student council; we do a lot of events and people from Michigan State University or Western University, people from other major universities. But as far as building relationships with people that identif with the way that I do from other universities, not so much. I could barely even do that here! Like I told you, African student council. It is a very good part of my life here at Grand Valley but I also felt that I was very limited Page 19 �there. It was nice to have a group of people; we had whites, Africans, Hispanics and even Korean! But identity is such a fragile thing and I thought I finally got over it, airight I’m me, I’m part of the African student council so that’s like got to be African, and then having to work through stereotypes within your own people is so rough. So I think that inhibited me from seeking deeper relationships. And then, I was really upset because I was going to get more familiar with the African refugee center, this year since I no longer have school and I could really dedicate working with individuals who first come under a refugee status and I found out a couple weeks ago that they had to close down because there wasn’t enough interest. As far as I know that was the only one in West Michigan. Hopefully one of these days I will have enough guts to start one in Grand Rapids, but I don’t plan on staying in Grand Rapids, I don’t know. BURKE: Where do you plan on going? OMOH: Somewhere down south, I like to travel. Obviously I came to America, and then I came to Michigan by myself, I want to go down south, I’ve never really experienced anywhere in down south before. I’ve been to the east coast; I haven’t been to the west coast. I think I’m more southern than I am western. I don’t think I have the personality to move to California, I want to find a nice little town down south with just the right amount of people. Not too big, not too small. Happy people. I heard there are a lot of happy people down south and I’m very big on hospitality. I know it’s kind of a silly reason to move but I like people that smile, ? I’m the kind of person that gets my energy from happy people, if you’re sad I’m sad and if you’re angry, I’m angry. I don’t become physically angry but I become tense. And I’m young and I want to work with refugees. I’m also going into the peace core. I was supposed to be going to Kenya for 27 months for the peace core in October, but they did the budget cuts and postponed it until March. And then I found out that they picked 7 people out of thousands and I was one of the people that they picked, but now they don’t have money for 7 people, only 3 or 4. So now I’m back to square one, trying to re-interview since I made the cut the first time. But I might not be doing it anymore because it takes a lot of emotional investment and they already took it away from me once, I was really depressed and don’t want to go through that again. My dream is to go back and open up a dentist for single mothers, less fortunate people that cannot afford health care. So within the peace core I was going to teach math and science in Kenya, and having that under my belt would give me essential life building skills to move on. But the government is jerking my chain so I think I will just go work in a refugee center, it’s the next best thing. BURKE: What made you decide to come to Michigan by yourself? OMOH: I think I’ve also told you this before, but it was the grass! BURKE: The grass? OMOH: ha-ha yes the grass! I played soccer in high school, and I mean I was good but I wasn’t that good so I was surprised when I got full scholarships to schools. I had a full ride soccer scholarship, and then two academic based scholarships. So I went to the schools and said okay I don’t have to pay for anything, but on the other hand I didn’t want to be stuck playing soccer for my whole college experience, and I was going into sciences and it would have been really hard to juggle all of them, and it was a private school. So then it was Grand Valley State University, University of Toledo, University of Page 20 �Illinois, I went to Champaign and it was too big for me, and Toledo was in the hood, it was good but it was surrounded by hood areas. And I grew up in the hood in Chicago and I’m trying to leave all of that. I want to go to an academic community! I had a vision and I came in the summertime, where it was so pretty with the grass. I guess the grass in Michigan is different from the grass in Illinois. Our grass doesn’t green like this, this is like good earth. My parents were just blown away by the grass, the trees and the flowers. I would rather come here with a class of only 30 people and I need to be able to have a teacher that knows my name, that when I go to their office hours, you recognize me and I’m not just another face. That was one of the reasons; the biggest one is still the grass though. BURKE: So what were your expectations for your education, did your parents have an influence? OMOH: My parents influenced me a lot on my decision, I always knew I wanted to do something in science, but my father wanted me to be a lawyer and my mother wanted me to be a medical doctor. It wasn’t until my sophomore year when I said I’m not being a doctor or a lawyer! I am going to be a dentist! That’s when I was getting my braces off and said I want to do something with the dentist now. Still to this day organic chemistry is my favorite chemistry in the whole wide world, you’re going to love it. I’ve always been interested in organic structures, but my senior year I realized that I get my energy from human interaction and even though I would be interacting with my patients, I want to be interacting with them on a personal level. So I still want to do something with my degree but I realized that dentist school isn’t for me. It’s not enough to just make people smile and happy, I’m not going to get enough interaction. iVy parents were very disappointed, my mom threatened to disown me. She is still upset with me for not going straight to dentist school; it was a big family argument. I’m not sure if it is like that in other African societies but I know that in Nigeria, from my experience, your parents set your role. They push you towards the math and sciences. I also lucked out that I liked it; if I didn’t like it then it would be a problem. BURKE: How did that vary within your siblings? Like with their college degrees? OMOH: No variation, but I will be the only science. My older sister has her masters in finance, my older brother is a computer engineer and my other sister is an industrial engineer and it’s me and my little brother who are going into business. I would be the variation within the social service job because obviously there’s no money in that, and if there’s no money than there’s no success. But I don’t see it like that. BURKE: Can you describe any historic events either in western Michigan or Nigeria that had an impact on you or your family, which you remember? OMOH: 9/11, I was in the 8 grade when it happened. It didn’t really impact me because I didn’t have any family there but it impacted me by the way the country as grieving, andhow to this day when 9/Il passes here and people are still recovering and crying. Like Isaid I don’t like stuff like that because I’m very motivated by my emotions, so seeing how the country all came together to get through that was very inspirational for me. Everyone was grieving, it didn’t matter what race, color or disability, everyone was grieving and it showed that even though we’re all different in some ways, it showed that as humans we Page 21 �support each other. I thought that was pretty cool. Actually one of my friends decided to be a firefighter because of that. BURKE: How has your perception of your identity changed as you grew older? OMOH: Like I said it’s changed, every couple of years I change how I identify myself. When I think of identity I think of race, I never think gender or sex, I always think race because that is such a big thing for me. My identity is always going to be from high school student, college student, grown adult, middle class to hopefully comfortable class. As far as status, single American. I never think that, I always think race. Right now I just consider myself black. If people ask me to tell them a little bit more, I say I actually have roots in Nigeria. But for now Ijust consider myself black. That might eventually change because I go through stages where I am like full on African! I wear all my African gear and tell the world. But right now I am just black. BURKE: So you think it will change? OMOH: Oh yeah most definitely. My identity changes with my maturity. When I first came to America I was like “I’m African, I need to separate and be an individual!” so I wore my Africanism quote on quote as a cloak for security to separate myself from people so I could be an individual. in high school, you don’t want to be the individual; you want to be the one with the coolest hair and a certain kind of style. So that was my token of individuality. In college I was Nigerian, not just African. Nigerian-American, I set myself as somebody who could be between African and African American. Now I just consider myself someone from an African descent, which is black. I can talk to Africans comfortably, I can talk to blackAmericans comfortably, I can talk to whites, and I can talk to anyone. I am just a woman from African descent. BURKE: Do you feel that members of your community have struggled from any civil rights in western Michigan? OMOH: Seeing as how I just moved to Grand Rapids, I don’t really know too many people in my community. Most of friends didn’t grow up in west Michigan; most of them grew up in Detroit or flint. So I don’t know, I can’t answer that question. BURKE: What issues do you feel still need civil rights advocacy? OMOH: Civil rights in reference to what? BURKE: Anything. OMOH: Gender discrimination, I am a little controversial in my definition of civil rights but I think everyone should be equal. Within race, ethnicity, gender, sexual preference. I think that at the very basis of it that we are humans and the bible teaches us to love thy neighbor as thyself, so I feel that we need more work. I think there’s been a lot of work gone towards racial civil rights, and I know a lot of my friends think that it needs more work and I agree. But I think that sometimes civil rights only eclipses racial issues instead of conflicts with gender, sex, and sexual preference, to things like woman in Page 22 �different work fields. I’m always about equal opportunity. When I hear civil rights I think about race, I think that when people think of civil rights they shouldn’t only think of things that are racial related. BURKE: Is there anything else that you would like to add or comment on? OMOH: No not really, I think we summed it all up. I appreciate you interviewing me; it makes me feel that you value my opinion. BURKE: We do! Thank you very much. This concludes our interview. END OF INTERVIEW Page 23 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ca85e264db454a02aaa0faeb3a3be379.mp3 d4def79b0b0387a626b47f90ac928f50 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Omoh_Esiloza Title A name given to the resource Esiloza Omoh audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Omoh, Esiloza Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Burke, Briana Description An account of the resource Esiloza Omoh was born in Legos, Nigeria, raised in Chicago, Illinois, and attended Grand Valley State University. She graduated with a degree in Biomedical Science. She discusses her experiences with discrimination because of the color of her skin. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-09-30 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/12c40449e4fc9e1defbff92f471c7e1f.pdf 427557416c790d55c04b422ffe6b296d PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Richard Robinson Interviewers: Iris and Christa Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 4/5/2012 Biography and Description Richard Robinson discusses his experiences with discrimination as a gay male. Transcript IRIS: Okay, we are here today on April 5, 2012 in the LGBT Resource Center with our friend Richard Robinson conducting an interview; and Richard, we, obviously as I kind of laid out, we just really want to hear your story and our objective is to talk to someone who has been perceived as different by others or by society. So, to start with, how do you think that and why do you think that others perceive you as different? RICHARD: For a while, I didn’t know why people perceived me as different but there were just instances; I was bullied a lot in elementary and middle school. Particularly in middle school there was an incident where people were paying others to punch me in the arm because they knew it would get a reaction out of me. Why they perceived me as different, I could think that because I was sort of an introvert; I was kind of nerdy and I didn’t want, I didn’t.., act like the other boys my age did. I wasn’t into the same things they were. I really didn’t care about sports then; it never happened that I started caring about girls ever. Turns out that later, oh hey, you’re gay, that’s why and so I imagine for a while it was just I was a strange little queer kid and people didn’t know how to handle that; and so they, that sort of social normalization of pick on them until they do what everyone else is doing. That if you’re not acting the way everyone else is acting that you will be perceived as different and they will come after you for it. + IRIS: So what kind of things, I mean when you were little, do you think that really set you apart, I mean at a young age what.., how really different can you be? RICHARD: I was a little ham, I have a, I have a photo album of me flirting from that my mother gave me of all the pictures of me and throughout the ages of oh, 3-4 years old to like 16, 17. I just thought it was clever or funny but for whatever reason ever single picture has me with jazz hands in it. Not a single one was different. IRIS: What’s jazz hands? Page 1 �RICHARD: Yea, the hands are out and up in here. Except for one, there’s one that’s even, that’s even gayer than that. There’s this photo of me about to go on my first day of kindergarten or something and I’ve got my, I’ve got my arm in the crook of my backpack’s shoulder strap. I have my right leg up on one toe, and my knees bent and my head’s back going ‘Yayyy’ *Iaughter* It’s, it’s... I don’t know, I couldn’t teN you why I thought any of that was, was clever or a good at the time, it just was and everyone thought it was adorable so I think I just kept doing it. Oh it’s funny that one time it’s really good you should reinforce behavior in a child once, it’s going to keep going and going and going. It was never corrected, it was never told to stop, it was never tod anything and there was even pictures of my brother mocking me doing the exact same thing I’m doing. Hands on hips or whatever, and he’s but he’s scrunched his face up and he’s brought his eyes towards his nose doing a kind of fish face of what I’m doing; just to be funny, just to sort of poke fun at his older brother. IRIS: So, from a very young age then, you kind of felt this identity... RICHARD: There was something, something going on but I, I I have an aunt and uncle that live in San Francisco for a long time and I showed them that album when I went to visit them for a few months. They, they, my aunt looked at that and she said ‘Rick I’m sorry, if I had seen this, I would have told them’ *Iaughter* IRIS: Told your parents? RICHARD: Told them, that I was, that I was gay. *Iaughter* I eventually did come out when I was 17 years old going into my senior year of high school. I decided that I wasn’t going to do it anymore; I screwed up my courage and I told everybody. I just, I shot gunned it. Before that, there were too people that knew sort of to let the pressure off but at that time I just, I emailed some friends, I spoke to some over the phone, I told some in person. But all that was after I told my mother, I told her first and then everybody else found out from that. IRIS: How did your mother react? How was your family? RICHARD: I came to her... I was going to do it the year before but turns out that my dad wanted to get divorced and so that put pressure on the family and so I didn’t. I guess I sort of held back because I didn’t want to make it worse on people; I didn’t want to go ‘Oh their getting a divorce oh and by the way’. IRIS: Oh, but that’s so sad that that would make it worse. That’s just a fact of life. RICHARD: Yea it is, it is but I’m in Grad school now and I’ve always been sort of a little researcher. If I don’t know something I know how to look things up; and so when I figured out that I was homosexual the internet was just around. I was, it was 1998-9 that I started figuring it out and so... The internet was really just starting but there were already a couple resources on-line. There was a couple websites I frequented, coming out stories, how to come out, you know those things. And all the statistics on what that is... You might want to pause for a minute while we wait for it to get quiet. *turns off recording device* Page 2 �IRIS: Ok RICHARD: Resuming recording. IRIS: Yes, so as we were saying Richard you knew that there was always something maybe a little off. When did you, when were you able to put words with this? RICHARD: There’s, there’s three events that I remember quite clearly that lead up to it. One I was five years old in kindergarten I was, I had been transferred to a different kindergarten than I was in originally because the teacher had accidentally left me in the bathroom when they took the rest of the kids out to recess. So I come out of the bathroom and then there’s nobody in the kindergarten trailer room. That was rather frightening, I panicked. I was only reminded of that But only at my new elementary school and there’s this , there’s this other boy whose house, was sort of friends with, his name was Phillip and for whatever reason, I don’t know why but I did the whole grab hand, knuckle, kiss thing. That I had seen in Disney movies or elsewhere; and three years later or so about seven or eight years old I’m at the bus garage with my mom because she’s a bus driver and my brother’s there we’re both in the same school and we ride the bus home with her to the garage and we go home in her car. And, my brother asks my mom ‘What does gay mean?’ and I pipe in because I loved answering questions and I say ‘Well it means you’re stupid or something’ and my mom goes ‘No, it’s when men like other men and women like other women’. And we’re like.. ohh. We thought it was kind of weird, but we didn’t think aboutto for too long we just sort of went about our day; no big deal whatsoever to either of us. But that is one of those instances where I was first able to connect... well then that mustbe bad. Because why would people use it in this way without it being bad; there’s no reason too. It’s either its bad or these other kids are all idiots, which is true but (laughter). And then I’m thirteen years old, oh geez when was this? Freshman high school, so that was makes me yea about thirteen, fourteen years old and I’m in gym class and my eyes lingered a little too long on some of the guys playing basketball and I go ‘Ohhh crap’ and that, it was just very clear right then and there that that started about three or four years of really bad depression. Really really bad depression because every single, because I’m still hearing faggot, fudge packer, gay, queer all day long everywhere. Every five seconds there’s another shout in the hallway or someone saying something completely ignorant around me and once I had had made the connection that what I am is bad, I got really worried and by only and when I get worried about something like that I research. I look up everything I can, what is this? What does this mean? What’s going and the internet had just come around, so I’m going online, I’m looking up comingoutstories.com, other places like that and I find the statistics about what happens to kids who come out before 17, 18 years old and it turns out its scary things like I out of every 4 of them is kicked out of their homes that were 4 times as likely to attempt suicide. That were 10 times as likely to be bullied in school; that was already happening, was already happening. I was already a target for a lot of people. And when you, when you’re bullied like that there’s no way to fight back because their being subversive about it; their being quiet about it, their being... their doing it in ways that can’t be seen and the only response that you can give back to them is to try and humiliate them in return but the only way to do that is to do it more openly, publicly and to actually fight back. When you fight back, you get in trouble because you started something. There was, there’s no finesse amongst, amongst teachers that I had were about dealing with bullying. It was only Page 3 �whoever was the most overt about the incident; they were the one who’d get in trouble. So you don’t do anything, you just sit there... IRIS: So you didn’t do anything? RICHARD: You grin and take it, for a long time and you grin and take it. I ended up later getting some piece about casting the right people out, flipping over a couple of desks. But here’s someone sitting in my chair and (told them to move and they didn’t so I flipped them out of it because that’s the only way to deal with it. If you don’t respond physically, if you don’t show them you won’t be a target, you will be a target. And that’s sad but that’s just the way it had to work out but anyway there’s all these bad things that happened. That if you come out and, you can say, I can say things oh I know my friend wouldn’t do that to me or I don’t believe that would happen or that would be really bad it’s still a 75% chance that I won’t happen if I tell them. But it’s.., it was no comfort that because it’s not true that I knew them well enough to say that because how many of those kid who were kicked out could say they knew their family well enough to say that ‘No they would never do that to me?’ It happened anyway; how many loving families are split up by this because who knows who’s secretly in the back of their minds going ‘I can’t handle the thought of having a gay child’. IRIS: That’s a lot, I mean and so you said you came out when you were 17. RICHARD: Yea IRIS: And you had been hiding this for a couple years. RICHARD: Yea, four years at that point. IRIS: and how, I mean, really how deal with that? RICHARD: Grades were shit... IRIS: Really? RICHARD: My graduating high school GPAwas 2.1. IRIS: Wow RICHARD: And to say that I’m now in grad school it’s like you can see what a big of a gap that is. My ACT score without doing a thing; without studying, without caring, without really knowing what was on the test was a 27 that was about an hour before the test began. My reading comprehensions were 31 so I’m in the 90th percentile for at least one metric on that test. But my grades were shit and that wasn’t the only reason. I was kind of contemptuous of the, of the material there were giving us. Where I would, I would get... I would not do any homework then I would ace the exam and be passing the class whereas the person next to me would have done all the homework, had failed the exam and weren’t passing the class. So I didn’t see a need to do a lot of the work to get by was one and it wasn’t challenging, it wasn’t interesting and I didn’t care not to mention I had so much other crap to deal with. So I’m stuck in this prison for 8 hours a day where my worst hated enemies who don’t want to be around me, I don’t want to be around them; but we’re stuck in classes together, we go to the same lunch hour, we’re we use the Page 4 �same locker room for gym. But the way to deal with that is just I got into a, I found a few safe people to be around that didn’t, that weren’t cruel to me and then I just spent as much time around them as I could. IRIS: That was going to be my next question. Do you have any friends from high school, people that you still talk to? RICHARD: Of course, I have three I have three really good friends. Tim, Tony and Justin; Justin is still the best friend to me in the world and we, we talk every week. Tony and Tim both joined the military afterwards and Tony’s got an interesting story. This was one of those things that could have gone really poorly for me. I came out to him by email and I called him up tried to tell him to check his email but he wasn’t there so I had to give his stepdad the message so like ‘Could you ask him to check his email’ he’s like ‘Yea, airight got it’ and he closes the phone. Airight so I’m worried here that would throw a curve but that wasn’t who I was coming out to anyway and I wait til the next day, I barely sleep that night, wait til the next day, call Tony and go ‘Tony did you check your email?’ And his response was ‘Yea, I’ll be right over’. And he’s coming over my house and I got maybe, ten minutes to think about what’s going to happen? What is it? Is he going to come over with a baseball bat? What’s in his hand when he gets to my door? And I open the door and he’s just got the same goofy expression that’s always on there and we chat for a while; we talk and he comments that I seem much happier now that I’ve told people and I was. I was much, much happier that I told people but I didn’t know what he was going to show up at that door with... and so it really freaked me out for a little while and what was really funny was there’s another incident with his stepdad. Where, I’ve been friends with Tony since middle school. It’s already been five years that I’ve known Tony and I’ve known him for fifteen at this point and , I’m going over to his house and we had slept in the same room, the same bed just as a sleepover and having fun, play video games, guitar, that sort of thing. But the first time I did that after coming out to him, Tony told his stepdadand his mom and his stepdad’s kind of, kind of weirded out by it, kind of weirded out that Tony’s sleeping in the same room let alone the same bed as the gay kid and he’s going ‘Should they be in the same room?’. Like but really, really really tapping around it but not really forcing to say it, like should they really. But Tony’s mom pipes in saying ‘What is he going to do Dave?’ (laughter) I don’t know, ‘What is he going to do Dave, it’s Richard, Dave’ (laughter) IRIS: And of course it was the man who would say that and the women who would say ‘Come on’. RICHARD: Well... Yea, there’s some truth to that but it was just... It was an interesting view, into the dynamic of those two... so, it was hilarious. It was one of the funny things that happened to me but when I say I came out at 17, I really want to get this part in. There’s incidents of before that, that happened to me that would have been worse had people had known. Was at a family reunion when I was fifteen, just before I turned sixteen; so about maybe 4, 3 or 4 months before my dad says he wants a divorce. I think, I think so and I’m at a family reunion and a video game that I liked had just come out. I had my own computer and I had this game, Diablo 2, and I had the collector’s edition. I had the game manual and this thing had come out three days prior and I am forced to go to this family reunion. I did not want to go to this family reunion. I wanted to sit home; I don’t know who those people are. I don’t know any of their names, they’re not my family; they’re sort of my parents family, in a strange way. Page 5 �Even they don’t like the very much, but no, we’re going to this family reunion, fine. Alright, I’m bringing this book. I bring the game manual and I’m wearing one of my snarky, black nerd T-shirts because I’m a 15 year old kid who’s questioning his sexual orientation. I don’t know what else to do but to wear a black shirt (laughter) With some silly nerd comment and it might have been the yellow sign with that, says land party animal with people sitting at computers, I don’t remember. But my great Uncle Val sees my sitting over there all alone all by myself, sort of moppy, sort of pissed off; kind of like ‘, I really don’t want to be here’. And he asks to see the book I’m looking at because the front of it has got fiery letters and gold trim and spikes and it looks all demonic because that’s the game, that’s what it is. And he asks to look at it for a while and he flips through it and he sees all the artwork in there and he sees what they’re talking about; demons and hell’s spawn and it’s the worst kind of video game you could show to an apparently Evangelical Christian. He proceeds, to slide that back over to me, goes to my mother and starts offering her an exorcism for me. No joke, tells her about this time that he and his other churchier friends or whatever held down this kid who dressed in all black and gothicy from the high school and sprayed holy water at them. That’s the kind of people that are on my mom’s side of the family and we left immediately. Much,much praise to my mother for just making that decision to just getting us the hell out of there at that point. But it was, I think back on that; the thing was kind of funny at the time, it was absurd but if people had, if it had been known that I was homosexual at thatevent, that could have gone much much much worse. That could have been much worse for me and I think would my parents would my parents have made the same decision that they did without having regards to his offer. Yea, they probably would have. She changed contacts, she changed information and who knows. And so I’m kind of frightened now thinking back on that day.. I could have, that did not always go my way. Not in the different scenarios I could run, it’s true that that could have been bad. But my parents were worried about me but they weren’t that worried about me. IRIS: I know you said you had a brother, a mom and a dad.. RICHARD: And a sister. IRIS: And a sister. So what kind of conversations did you have with them? RICHARD: I didn’t. I didn’t. I told my family after the divorce, my mom was a bit of a gossip so I tell her and she tells everybody. And then I proceed to not talk to anybody else about it for years. Because everyone just goes ‘Oh’ and them no one talks about it. It was, it was the one of the most dis-heartening parIs of things that happened. She tells everyone and then nobody ever bothers to ask me about it. I didn’t want to get to tell the story about what had been going on with me to any of my family. Not my brother didn’t ask, my sister didn’t ask... they still haven’t asked. My dad, she told my dad during the divorce proceedings, before the divorce was finalized my mother told my dad this thing that I had told her and what I really don’t know is I don’t know if she told him out of malice; I don’t know if she told him to make him feel guilty. But then he never came to me for four years I didn’t talk to him about it, we didn’t mention it. I knew he knew, he knew I knew he knew. IRIS: But not a word was spoken? RICHARD: Not a word was spoken... not any contacts. Page 6 �IRIS: That’s not healthy. RICHARD: It wasn’t and it really depressed me a little bit more but I was out, I had friends and people knew and I didn’t have to hide it from anybody else anymore. I didn’t have to worry about me giving back to them; so if they didn’t want to talk to me about it 1 kind of had this ‘Screw them ‘approach about to it. If they don’t want to, if they’re interested enough to come and talk to me about it then fine. And they since have said ‘Well we just don’t know what to say’. Anything, say anything; ask me a question. Ask me something that you’re comfortable knowing; I will answer it truthfully. You can ask me anything; I’m supposed to be your son, your brother whatever but nope, I didn’t get much of anything out of them. And we’ve sort of made peace out of that it’s just so far in the past now, it was... God, I’ve been out of the closet for, this will be ten years this July. IRIS: So, when did you feel comfortable enough to start relationships openly, open relationships with men? RICHARD: Well, there’s the other kicker because it’s hard enough meeting people when you’re gay, we’re dealing with as much smaller portion of the population. Grand Valley here is a much higher percentage of the population here is women than it is men at Grand Valley alone. IRIS: It is, it really is. RICHARD: It’s like 60: 40 or something like that. Reality I should have gone to Tech which is like 30% women 70% men but anyways, I was bit of a reclusive nerd in every other sense so not only was I gay in a small population, I was the reclusive nerd. My masculine.., what do I want to say? Not mentors but peers were intellectual, largely unsexualized, competitive, compassionate men. Other, other nerd, other people; it was all about seeing who’s smarter than the other ones. It was all about seeing who could figure out this puzzle or who can beat this person at this game, this very, very intellectual game. IRIS: So all your friends were nerds? (laughter) RICHARD: Yea, all my friends were nerds. I was a nerd, my friends were nerds and we already... there’s this thing where because when you grow up and you’re a teenager you supposed to learn to sort have relationships; we had little stupid relationships. When you’re gay, you don’t get those. We don’t learn how to date in high school; we don’t learn how to approach people in high school; we don’t know how to say those things in high school because we’re not given the opportunity to because if we do, there’s a good chance that we’re going to get assaulted from it. There’s a good chance we’re going to hit on the wrong person and it’s not going to go well for us. So we don’t and on top of that I already don’t know how to talk to people because I’m a nerd; since gotten over it but I was... talk about socially awkward people... look at a table of kids who are only brought together because they’re outcasts or because they’re all a little bit smarter than the curve. That’s the group of people I came up in so I really didn’t have any... in high school, community college, undergrad. I really didn’t start having relationships until I got of undergrad and I got my, I moved to California. My aunt and uncle were the ones who lived in California. I did my undergrad here at Grand Valley in Anthropology and part of that was I got to do an archaeological field school which qualified me to be an archaeologist and I was. I joined the forest service for a service as an intern, and I was an archaeological field technician intern. I got paid to hike Page 7 �around the Sierra Mountains for a summer and it was one of the best times of my life. But after that, I had family that lived just north of San Francisco and they let me stay with them until I found a job and I got to live in San Francisco. lt wasn’t the great... it was sort of this really ignorant thing I did because I think, ‘Aha’ I just came to the gay city; I just came to the place that is the place for it. But I get there and I find out it’s not younger people, it’s the gay men’s population there is in their 40s now so it’s much older than I am. I was 23 at the time but whatever I had fun there. I was there for seven months; I lost my job and the city’s so expensive. I was paying twice the Michigan mortgage for an apartment making less than $30,000 a year so it was not going to no... And I moved back... I moved in with my mom she was in North Carolina at the time. So I go from San Francisco to Winston Salem, North Carolina *Iaughter* IRIS: Yea, that’s a big jump. RICHARD: Right it’s just, it’s not the... it wasn’t a very good, wasn’t a very good move for me but I eventually made it back here got into grad school. IRIS: I’m just checking on the time. RICHARD: No it’s fine. IRIS: So when you came back here, when you came back, I’m just interested in like what kind of relationships have you had? RICHARD: Not many, none that I would call serious boyfriends, just a couple flings here and there; nothing that’s... kind of once, nothing serious now but that’s always been... there was no point in my life where I knew where I could see far enough ahead where I could see something. Since the divorce.., since my parents’ divorce, about 11, 12 years ago now, I have moved on average two or three times a year. Either in the same city because the apartment we couldn’t keep it or something happened or we needed a cheaper place or whatever, it just happened that I lived in 16, 17 different places since the divorce 12 years ago and right now. In some of those years I moved 4 times; a couple of those years I didn’t move for the whole year but a bunch of those years I moved a lot and.. IRIS: *fly interrupts interview* Oh that fly is going to bug me. RICHARD: Yea, it’s getting to me too. But I never thought that any of that was conducive enough to actually finding something that was longer term or serious because why? I don’t know what my life’s going to be; I don’t know where I’m going. I went from Grand Rapids, Michigan to the Sierra Nevada Mountains to San Francisco for seven months to Winston Salem, North Caroilna to Charlotte, North Carolina to Detroit for a little bit, back to Grand Rapids. I lived in Holland for a month, found a job at a milk factory. Moved to Standale to my friend’s parent’s house; paid them rent for a bed. Lost that job, got back into Grand Valley to finish off a minor; ran out of money and got a job selling natural gas door to door. This, so right up until a couple years ago, just before I started grad school, I did not know about this program that I am in until two months before I was in it. Two months before grad school started in that fall, I found out about the Massive Public Administrative program and I did a bunch of research into what Public Administration was and I go ‘This is cool; I want to do this. I want to study this stuff; this Page 8 �sounds great’. And my job in San Francisco had been with a non-profit, I had just worked for government. And then I go and talk to them about it and I’m saying m graduating GPA from here was 3.2 and I tell them that I had this experience in government work and the non-profit sector and I would like to pursue that and they go ‘Oh you’re a shoe-in. Just get us your letters of recommendation and we can get you in for the fall. And I tried, and I tried, and I tried, and I tried, and I tried, and I tried, and I tried, and I tried but it seemed as if, that it wasn’t going to work. It seemed as if I had missed my opportunity that something wasn’t going to come in on time and in the, the Wednesday before classes started I got my acceptance letter. I got my admittance letter that I’m in grad school now. And I’m like ‘Holy crap. What can I do?’ and the next day and I’m in the graduate student office and I’m going ‘Can I do this?’ and their like ‘Yes, go talk to Financial Aid.’ So I go talk to financial aid; I sign-up for financial aid on Thursday. I sign-up for classes on Friday; I borrow money from a friend on Monday to buy a book and I’m in class that night *Iaughter* And that’s was my entry into grad school and it’s been indicative of my entire time since high school. I have never known where I was going to be; it has been so tumultuous that I have never felt ready to be in anything. I’ve never known anyone. When you move that much; when you move from different towns, from different places, you never get a chance to be a part of a community. IRIS: So are you from Grand Rapids? RICHARD: No IRIS: Where are you from? RICHARD: I’m from Clarkston, Michigan. If you know where the DTE Energy Music Theater is? CHRISTA: No IRIS: No, I’m from Ohio. *Iaughter* RICHARD: Oh, it’s a Detroit suburb in northern Oakland County. IRIS: Okay and that’s where you went to elementary and high school? RICHARD: That’s where I went to elementary, high school, middle school, the whole thing. My entire, my mom’s from that town. My entire families from that town, except my dad; my dad’s from Ypsi... Ypsilanti which is closer to Detroit but more about Ann Arbor area. I didn’t even know about Grand Valley until several months before I came here the first time. It’s been by the seed of my pants, doing this whole higher education thing and... IRIS: Yea, I completely understand that’s kind of how I am too. This is the third university that I’ve gone to; I’m always moving about, trying to find the next best thing. But that’s really interesting.., but where do you see yourself? What do you plan ondoing? Do you want to live in Michigan? Do you want to live in Grand Rapids? RICHARD: Yea, out of anything else, out all the places I’ve been, California’s beautiful but there’s something about Michigan that I just find so endearing. I love, I love this state. I love all the trivia, I know Page 9 �about it. I know so many little things about this place that are just so strange. I go elsewhere like if I went to Ohio I don’t know if we’d find the same sort of strangeness about the state. Like for instance, this has nothing to do with the interview but it’s funny. There’s this town in Michigan called Novi; Novi is the number six stop out of Lansing from Lansing to Detroit. So Novi, N-O-V-I is the number six stop. IRIS: Oh so you just randomly know that? RICHARD: The name of the town, the name of the town in Novi it was the number six stop. They sort of built a town around a train station and caHed it Novi. (laughter) IRIS: What does Novi mean? RICHARD: Let me write it out for you. This is why it’s hilarious. Number six.. Iris & CHRISTA: Ohhhhhhhh. I get it. Really, that’s why they named it that? RICHARD: It’s called Novi. Michigan is full of liftle shit like that and it’s just, (just find it so amusing that that stuff exists. That’s why, that’s why that’s the number six stop. IRIS: How do you feel, I mean I know you said you’ve been to a lot of different places but as far as like culture goes, I think people are different everywhere.. RICHARD: Well yea, there’s... for the lower belt line of Michigan, there’s largely three groups that you can vaguely discern. There’s people who live around Detroit, auto industry. Every single one of my uncles, my dad, my dad’s family, all of them – auto industry. I have connections to GM, Chrysler, Ford. I have people who work in the UAW just as part of that organization. Every single family out There is completely, inextricably linked to that industry. You get to the middle of the state, it’s state workers. You ger around Lansing, the people that work for the state. There’s this middle bit around Lansing, Ann Arbor that’s much, much different than the Detroit suburbs in the Detroit area. And then Western Michigan that’s this whole other culture in its own. I mean these middle two are similar but within Michigan itself just the lower ha’f of the lower peninsula is three completely distinct culture groups and more if you want to start dividing by ethnic lines and insular cultures and specific countries of origin. Michigan itself is so incredibly varied within it, even if it is mostly white people. IRIS: Especially west Michigan. RICHARD: Yea, especially west Michigan. But yea, I think I interrupted the question that Michigan, that other places are so different. IRIS: Oh yea, so I mean do you, do you feel like there’s more out there? I mean I feel like especially west Michigan, just coming into Grand Rapids I feel like I’m coming from a big bubble a smaller bubble. I mean I’m just, my question, I feel like you have all these ideas and your very inspirational. RICHARD: There’s a couple interesting things about Grand Rapids itself. Grand Rapids is the second largest city for philanthropy per capita in the country. Some west coast city, whichever Bill Gates lives in. Page 10 �IRIS: Seattle? RICHARD: Yea, so I think Seattle counts as the highest place for philanthropy per, as a percentage of the city’s GDP is there and then Grand Rapids is second in line. So if I’m doing non-profit work, Grand Rapids is one of the best places to be but there’s also a lot of competition. I mean, largely my plan is to take a job wherever I can get it. If I have to move to get work, I will. I have no compunctions about leaving the state; I’ve left it before. I’d love to stay, love to stay but if someone hands you an offer ‘Here’s $45,000 a year’, I’m going to leave. IRIS: So your main concern is work then and not so much finding those new people, different people building different relationships? RICHARD: I have preferences; I’d love to live on the coast again; east coast, west coast. On the water, as close to the ocean as I can. And this largely is the same here I mean I live reaHy close to the lake. If you haven’t had a chance to go out to Lake Michigan, wait til the summer. IRIS: I can’t wait; I’ve never been. RICHARD: it’s amazing. Absolutely fantastic beach; really smooth sand, clear water and you get in and it’s not salty. Its fresh water and you’re like ‘Holy crap, this lake is gigantic’. IRIS: It’s cold though. RICHARD: It won’t be warm enough til about late July. 1aughter* Til then, it’s still going to be about 40 degrees that water, it’s crazy. But I loved living in San Francisco; I love being that close to the ocean. I worked in an office where I overlooked the bay from my window that was five feet from me and I looked out one day and there was a pirate ship. Someone had a mock pirate ship; it had a mast, sail, mooring lines and all that. IRIS: See that’s my thought that people who are weird, are different you like to push theboundaries, they can do that. On the west coast like no one would think anything of it whereas here, it’s ilke someone. I say, one of my friends came to class, he’s going through his transition this summer. He came to class in a kilt, a skirt and everyone was like ‘Oh my God’ what I mean like I just knew. I mean, I just, I don’t know. How do you feel? RICHARD: Grand Rapids is getting better. I mean look at how small this city is and you realize there’s four gay bars downtown. Four. So this place is small it’s insular but there’s a community here and Grand Rapids was, in 1994 one of the first cities to enact any ordinance barring people from being evicted from their housing for being gay. That was 1994 that Grand Rapids did that. The current mayor, he was on the board; he signed that. He put that forward through the city; he was on the city board, city council then so he did that and that, so he’s still there I don’t care that he’s Republican at all but he signed that; he got that through in 1994 and he’s still an ally now. And so what we can ma e some broad strokes about it but I really.., you’ve got to dig into the city to know that for certain. And not to mention, Grand Rapids is fantastic for food. It’s a foodies paradise here if where to look. Page 11 �IRIS: Peppinos? RICHARD: Oh no no no, you haven’t even scratched the surface. IRIS: I think I found my new favorite pizza when I had Peppinos it was so good. RICHARD: Yea and it is extremely good but you haven’t scratched the surface of Grand Rapids food; it’s amazing. There is a woman named Olga, she opened, she’s Haitian and she opened a Haitan-Creole restaurant in Easttown called Shea Olga. And it’s this absolutely amazing food! It’s absolutely amazing. You can get black rice mushroom gumbo there. You can get, you can get lamb in fried plantains. You get Haitian coffee and ginger tea and it is the best food I have ever had. It’s in Easttown. IRIS: My mom’s Dominican so that’s my favorite too. RICHARD: Go to Shea Olga, you will not be disappointed; absolutely, amazing and the little things like that are everywhere. There’s two Papoosarie’s in town. There’s a Papoosarie from Honduras and there’s one, I think they’re from somewhere South American but there’s just a fantastic variety of food from all over the world is in the middle if Grand Rapids and people wouldn’t know it when you look at Grand Rapids but if you start branching out a little bit from downtown, you start looking around, it’s there. And it’s getting better, it’s getting so much better in Grand Rapids and as long as the metropolitan city, there’s very little you can discern between them. I mean yes cities have their cultures and cities have their own places but if cities get big enough, there’s going to be two things happening. The gays are going to show up and there’s going to be better food. *Iaughter*Thats really the only two things I require. (laughter) Which is another reason why San Francisco was awesome because there was more bars and restaurants per person in San Francisco than anywhere else in the planet. It’s a tiny city that seven miles by seven miles wide with only 700,000 people in it but the bars and restaurants per person is more than New York, is more than Beijing, is more than any other city anywhere. IRIS: Have you ever been to Washington, D.C? RICHARD: I have, it was a middle school trip I was about eleven years old. I went to Washington, D.C. IRIS: Really? I went there recently. I think you’d really enjoy it. RICHARD: I think I would too. There’s sort of this political environment that I’d be really happy about. I even told a few professors that I should get into politics eventually but I’m a gay atheist in West Michigan. There’s no chance for me to be elected locally here; I’d have to move. IRIS: Yea, you might have to move. RICHARD: I might have to move. IRIS: Wow, that’s funny. Alright well let’s see what else we want to talk about. RICHARD: We’ve gone over where I’ve been; we’ve gone over where I’m from. I gave enough, I gave all the pieces to my little progress. Not necessarily in order but close enough. Page 12 �IRIS: Yea not in order but that’s okay. airight, well, I think, let’s talk now about kind of what you’re doing at the moment. I know we met you at the Transpectrum Transforum. So you’re a member of what exactly. I know transgender that you were saying is an umbrella is an umbrella term but how do... RICHARD: Yes, I’m not at all a member of their community but I am, I try to be a strong ally. I try not to draw too much attention to it. Because 1 don’t want, I’m really conscious of not trying to make, trying to be an ally without making their pain about me. Like I’m just going to be there and I’m going to support as much as I can because if you talk about pain people go through. Theirs is so much worse. So much worse and just to measurably statistics are so much worse. The things you can see; the rate of suicide, the rate of homelessness; the rate of poverty all the soulful metrics are far worse if you are transgender in this country versus just being a member of the LGB community. And somewhere in the sexuality spectrum if you start breaking through the gender spectrum, things get worse pretty quickly for you. IRIS: Where so you see the LGBT community going? I mean I personally through even coming to Grand Valley and taking something these classes on diversity and women and gender studies, I feel like these future generations are getting more and more educated. No one thinks.., no one would openly say ‘Yes, I’m racists’ in myopinion as we’re progressing throughout time. So I feel like there’s only a matter of time before everyone is equal, no one can be excluded and no one can have their rights taken away from them because that’s wrong. 1/ RICHARD: We’d hope so; we’d hope so but our history tells us something different. We must always remain vigilant about the victories we have gained because if you look at the area that is now Germany, in the I 880s and 90s, the Jewish people were getting voting rights, property rights, and protections from the government. They’re starting to make all the gains that gay people are making right now. Civil rights protections, ilberties; they advert, they participate more openly in fully in government and then 50 years later, look what happens. Not even 50 years later shorter than that. Within a generations lifetime, things completely go to hell for them and we’re There living there in that part of the world. Yea, we can say that it’s wrong for them to take these things away from us but by no means that relieve us of the responsibility of making sure that the victors we gained aren’t lost further down the line. It only takes the right set of circumstances or people to start fear mongering and grab the other again and to put all the blame for all societies’ ills all on a group of people. Number one, we can stop them then we all would be better off and so, I disagree on that point but I... IRIS: I just feel like that once all these old people kind of die off. (laughter) all the stubborn old people will give up. RICHARD: It’s not.., we sort of want to put the blame on an older generation that’s that didn’t know any better. But I’ve met enough of that generation who do sort of know better that it’s just a cultural thing. It’s just a piece, it’s just an idea that’s been spread generationally and yes young people are disproportionally to be more supportive. But it’s disproportional, it’s not all of it. It’s not everybody. So those gains that we’ve made with the older generation, we made with them and you keep making with their grandchildren, we should. But, I totally understand. My grandma blamed the internet; she said I was gay because I was up on that computer and he saw those guys and he’s like that and he said I want to be like that, that’s what he did. I see that but where I see it going is, I’d like to see it go this direction. Page 13 �Right now we’re sort of tacking letters onto the LGBQTIAIAA bit and it’s creating this long alphabet soup list because everybody with a different starting letter or even the same starting letter on the sexuality spectrum feels the need to put it in there for our presentation. Just for sake of simplicity, I’d like people to start saying gender sexual minorities; GSM. GSM, GSM, GSM, GSM,GSM. Alright, covers everybody alright every area that we’ve discovered that’s part of the human sexuality spectrum, fine. It’s in there. IRIS: I’m sorry, you said gender... RICHARD: Sexual minorities. IRIS: Minorities. RICHARD: Gender and sexual minorities. So it’s just anybody who’s off the norm in these two axis of human experience. We can talk about in this way but really what where it needs to be is it needs to be something that doesn’t have to be talked about. It needs to be something that doesn’t have to be mentioned. That, where people don’t assume that you’re straight until you say otherwise. IRIS: I completely agree. I think it’s so sinful. It’s sinful to judge other people just because they’re different from you. You know what I mean? Their life and what they do had absolutely no effect on you so why are you blaming them? Why are you showing so much hatred? And it’s just I don’t understand why people care so much. It’s really disheartening; it’s really beyond me. RICHARD: It’s sexist but in the end it’s about male privilege more than anything else. They see a gay man as being less than, less man than, other than, other men. RICHARD: What you do when someone is showing less masculinity is that you provoke them into being masculine again, it’s that bullying thing. Women who are homosexual, its almost seen as where lesbians are sorta more accepted in a weird way, sort of, by the straight male people most because oh that sexy. They like looking at it but they’re completely unwilling to make that sort of the same thing as gay; but they see women trying to be more like men because they’re dating women, but they see men trying to be more like women because they’re dating men and that’s bad. Women are rising on that masculinity spectrum and gay men are lowering on the spectrum and so they see this level and that sets that’s where the whole hornophobia comes from especially, for transgendered people, especially against male to female transsexuals where they’re literally changing themselves. IRIS: So you think that homophobia comes from this emasculated point of view that our country has? RICHARD: Everything, every trait that you could supply to masculinity is something that could not be applied to a feminine perspective as well unless it’s just not feminine. There are no positive traits to masculinity it4s always things that are just not feminine; you’re strong not weak, don’t be weak, don’t show weakness. It’s not be strong as much as don’t be weak. There’s no, there’s nothing that’s that we can point to and say ah hah that’s a strong masculine idea that we should be to be men, no it’s all just about not being feminine. And so when we do say as the sexual minorities that’s not our experience, it’s certainly not the normal masculine, it must be feminine. It’s really its strange and it’s stupid. If we can Page 14 �just get over that and break through that sexist boundary with more people, I think that things would be a lot better. IRIS: So 1 was reading an article, it was called the erotic and it was in in my Women and Gender Studies class, it was talking about how we are so trained to suppress our erotic, meaning ourselves, our true colors, loving affection that everyone and anyone can show, fear, just love in all of its forms and how especially men are trained to just say no. Do you feel like you are more freed because you’re not held to that standard of masculinity and how do you think we should go about future generations so men don’t have to suppress so much? Boys already know that they’re not supposed to cry and little boys already know to not be a sissy. RICHARD: 1 don’t know that sounds flowery to me and so I don’t know how much I can say about it without reading what she said but it sounds like an appeal to emotion at that point, and oh yeah this natural state of everyone being happy and lovey dovey towards each other, mmmm, I don’t buy it. As an anthropologist 1 don’t buy it, as someone who studies human cultures I don’t buy it. I don’t buy it because that’s going to bring the heart break that going to bring powerful emotions in the other direction as well. As much as we say just love each other, love each other, there’s only so much you can do. Some people you don’t necessarily like you, don’t have to like you, and you should be free to express whatever emotions you have. Whatever its sexual orientation you have with other consenting adults great, but to say that there’s something blocking people from experiencing them that themselves, I don’t really know how true that is and it would be very hard to say how true that is so it sounds good so I think she gets away with saying things like that. But what I would just like to see is, I would just like to see, whatever’ you’re sexuality is, to not be so demonized and put down by others.f we can just allow people to grow in their teenage years to just sort of not care that would be great. IRIS: How do we do that though? RICHARD: I have no idea, but just people coming out and saying I’m not straight, do that enough times and suddenly everybody in this country would know that they know somebody. I don’t care how small your family is, I don’t care how small your circle of friends is, somebody you know is somewhere, somehow off straight on the sexuality spectrum, and that personal connection is what bridges the boundary and because we can show up anywhere, at any time, with any family, at any moment, the child that you have, that child might be gay any child that’s born might be gay. It doesn’t matter there’s no positive correlation in any ethnic group, there’s no change in any country of origin, there’s no change anywhere; we are the hidden minority, we are the surprise minority, we show up ha ha and guess what. It can’t be seen, it can’t be tested for, at least not yet, but when we get there, when we get to where people can just be more and more comfortable as we break through that line of just being more and more comfortable with saying yes, and staring down those who say that we should be quiet, say that we shouldn’t do that, that’s where we make victories; and how ever it turns out, if it ends up being that everyone loves each other and the be happy thing that sounds like what she’s, talking about, great that’s fine, but I don’t think it needs to be talked about in that way. We just gotta be careful about those appeal to emotion bits because there’s sort of this line in the LGBT community because the gay rights movement started in the 60’s and 70’s free love era, I think there’s some hold overs about what this Page 15 �means, and I don’t think there all right I think there’s some things that are in fact not true about that sort of everybody love each other, everyone be happy free love, everyone’s sort of bisexual; like, no It’s not, never. IRIS: So you’re a realist? RICHARD: I care about data and what’s happening and I want to know what’s real. Everything else I could care less, I’m atheist; can’t show me evidence, I don’t want to hear about it. IRIS: Do u have any other questions? CHRISTA: I think we got mostly everything IRIS: Actually one question, do you think that if you would have come out at an earlierage, I know you said things definitely would have been different, but do you think everything would have been worse or, because I mean you were really, really depressed hiding this feeling like I don’t know, I don’t have anyone to talk to, what do you think realistically would have been better or worse? RICHARD: On the one hand I would hope it would be better, but in the end I’m not exactly unhappy with how it turned out. Those 4 years where I was depressed were spent being even more introverted than ever before. I was doing nothing but reflecting and thinking about myself, who am I, what is this, what does this mean, what’s going on, what am I going to do with my life? All that I’m not going to have go down the regular path, I’m not going to get married and have kids, that sort of wedding where there’s a woman across from me at the chapel, that’s not happening and all those little things about your future are different when you realize you’re homosexual, and I spent those 4 years thinking about it, I spent hose 4 years just being an amateur philosopher about my life and so it was no surprise to me when I got to community college, took a philosophy class and feel in love with what it was talking about because here’s how we know things, here’s how we think correctly, here’s how we can identify poor thinking, and getting things wrong, here’s how we can be sure that when we say we know something we really mean it and the tools that that gave me for further reflection, for further thinking and further work on it was really, really good. I really am happy that I have a philosophy undergrad as much as people say that is a worthless degree, absolutely not. I know so much about myself and my opinions are more formed now because I was a philosophy major because I know what bad thinking and what bad rhetoric looks like. IRIS: So it’s very pertinent to your life. RICHARD: Absolutely, everyone should take one philosophy course, it should be required freshman year of college, take a philosophy course. IRIS: I took a philosophy course and it ended up being a feminist ethics class. RICHARD: You wanna start with Socrates, everyone should have to read all the dialogues all through the Republic to become a citizen, it should be a required reading to become a participant in democracy. Page 16 �Uris: Then maybe just to wrap up, how do you, how confident are you in yourself right now, I mean honestly I don’t want to sound like stereotypical, but no one really knows you’re gay. It’s not like you said, I couldn’t pick you out of crowd, but do you think that people interact with you differently, look at you differently know if they do know you’re gay and how are you comfortable with that? RICHARD: I have always had to tell everybody, everyone was surprised, they shouldn’t have been if they had seen that photo album, they should not have been surprised, but I was I did a similar one of these things because I’m an ambassador for the resource center, and I went and I spoke in front of Greek life I spoke in front of some fraternity students and one of them had the balls to ask me, why is you’re voice so deep, because he was wondering cause all the gay guys he had seen were Jack’bn Will and Grace and everyone talks in a little higher voice and being flamey about it and no my voice is very comfortable on the baritone register because my vocal chords are just that long, but it’sone of those questions that people don’t pick up on, people don’t think about. I am presumed straight even though I am really gay, I mean it, I know what I’m talking about, I know what I like, I know who I want to date. I’ve always had to tell everybody it’s never been, people don’t look at me and say oh that’s a homosexual man, people look at me and think oh that persons gone through the whole sexuality issue in high school. IRIS: So you prefer to tell people? RICHARD: I have to! It’s not even, not even prefer, I really wish people would pick up on it. I’ve thought before, why don’t I dress a little bit more gay, why don’t I just put out more signals that I am. So I have a couple of pride shirts and I do what I can but it’s in the end 1 just whatever they’re all wrong but if that means I don’t get approached by some guys that would be interested would they know? I don’t really know if that’s ever happened, I don’t if that’s going to happen, there’s nothing I can do about it and so right now I’m still I’m about to graduate, I have one more summer class to take, but after that I really don’t know where I’m going to go, I don’t know where I’m going to live, I don’t know what city I’m going to be in, I don’t know what kind of job I’m going to be able to get. I can hope for all these really good things to happen to me because I’m getting a professional degree from Grand Valley and if you haven’t heard, Grand Valley master programs are phenomenal they’re all practical, professional programs; none of them are academic, they’re MBAs MPAs the only PhD is in physical therapy. Everything Grand Valley does at the graduate level is practical, pragmatic, and with careers in mind and its known for this so my degree is going to incredibly valuable when I leave his university, but that doesn’t mean I’m going to be able to find work immediately. It doesn’t mean I’m going to be able to find work that will provide me a moving stipend to help me get to where the job is. If I have to leave the state I require one so I can’t know, again I don’t, I’m still not in a place where I feel comfortable getting in a relationship or approaching people about it because I just don’t know where my life’s going, I just don’t know where I’m going to be and I don’t feel comfortable doing anything until I know that, until I have my own, I’m more independent than I am now which is still living off of student loans. I’ve been doing this for ten years I’ve been in college. I did it right out of high school, I did five years and I got my undergrad degree, an associates and bachelors, two years off, two years master’s degree, there’s 9 years out of high school. But that’s all I’ve been doing and at no point in there and at no point right now do I Feel comfortable saying yeah I know where my life is going. I have no idea, there’s no way to tell. It’s hard now a days and we all walk out of here with 5, 6 figures worth of debt’ I’ve got 6 figures worth of debt because I went to Page 17 �grad school, grad school is expensive! It costs me $30,000 a year to do this just in student loans that’s what I take out’ oh yeah tuition is 15 yeah but it cost me 15 just to live, just to get by, rent, cell phone, car, insurance. It cost me 15 thousand a year just to survive right now, so any job that offers me more than 15 thousand dollars is fine that is more than what I’ve got right now. IRIS: I think it’s really inspiring that people who, I feel like people might look at me difterently because I’m Hispanic, people in high school especially they thought I was black, ignorance, but I just, it’s really inspiring for me that people who, obviously you have to deal with this every single day, this homophobia, it’s really inspiring that hey, it is what it is, I’m so proud of myself, and I’m so content with everything. RICHARD: Thank you. IRIS: Thank you! CHRISTA: Thank you for talking with us. RICHARD: Absolutely, this is sort of therapeutic. When I started doing it, I wasn’t always as comfortable with it but as I do this more and more I start telling people and I see the reactions and it gets easier and easier every time I tell people, so I’m more than happy to talk about it. IRIS: I’m glad that you enjoy it because honestly I love hearing stories like this. One thing that I wrote on the Transpectrum survey was that I would love to hear more personal stories and I know that is not always easy, but how inspiring is that, you know what I mean, and educational. I would have liked to hear a lot more about the transitions that some of them went through or what they were dealing with. RICHARD: The LGBT student group is having elections tonight so I’ll put that forward that people like hearing that and maybe we can work with something. IRIS: I mean maybe it’s just me but I feel like hearing someone’s story like that, it really opens your mind, like wow I really have it good, I don’t know what’s going on around me, need to open my mind. It’s amazing. RICHARD: Yeah recognize privilege and deal with it. Not everyone’s life is like that. I’ve got a lot of privilege in a lot of ways, but you just try to recognize it. IRIS: And not enough people do it and that honestly I think that would be the solution for homophobia, for racism, for sexism is for people to open to their minds and realize that gay people aren’t going anywhere, it’s real so what are you going to do about it, it’s crazy. RICHARD: I hope you stick around for Grand Valley cause next year were trying to bring in somebody who’s been through reparative therapy to speak. Reparative therapy is when people try to change someone from being gay to not through various means, the Mormon church did this a lot with electroshock therapy in the 70’s and 80’s. IRIS: Wow. Page 18 �RICHARD: Yeah there’s a lot of it out there so were looking for someone who’s been through one of the ex-gay groups or has been through that sort of thing and is willing to tell their story, so were putting out feelers for people but hopefully we’ll find someone whose willing to speak out against those organizations like Exous international and a few others that are still functioning to this day. IRIS: Try to straighten out gay people? RICHARD: Right now there are places where a parent can send their child to pray the gay away. IRIS: I’ve heard that before. RICHARD: Yeah and it’s legal, it’s not child abuse, it should be, but it’s not. IRIS: Yup, wow that’s amazing. RICHARD: So were trying to bring that next year so stick around stay at this university and keep going to things. We have pride prom in a couple of weeks it’s going to be fun. IRIS: Like a dance kind of thing? RICHARD: Yeah because we don’t, gay people don’t get prom in high school. We don’t, we can’t bring a date to those things, are you kidding me, that’s asking for trouble. IRIS: You can’t wear what you want to either. RICHARD: Nope, so we put one on once a year and this one’s going to be good. IRIS: Well if aN goes well I’ll be out of here by next December, graduated but knock on wood. RICHARD: Well good luck. IRIS: Thank you, thank you so much for coining I really appreciate it. RICHARD: No problem. END OF INTERVIEW Page 19 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/29fa15a8c94c7f84601475edb7d2e25d.mp3 9264ca98f31c792e92d44d4f15ff45f9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Robinson_Richard_2 Title A name given to the resource Richard Robinson audio interview and transcript, interview 2 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Robinson, Richard Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Iris Christa Description An account of the resource Richard Robinson grew up in Clarkston, MI. He attended Oakland Community College from 2003-2005 and GVSU as an undergrad from 2005-2008. His undergrad was in Philosophy and anthropology. He is now a grad student studying public administration. In this interview, Robinson discusses his experiences with discrimination as a gay male. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Gays--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-04-05 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/738c229cd7fe58605a44c020a60a18b7.pdf 94b51d5bdaa6bce0360e7a27754c9c44 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Mirta McGee Interviewers: Christina McGee Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 10/22/2011 Biography and Description Mirta McGee was born in Cuba and raised in the United States. She is currently an elementary school Spanish teacher. She discusses balancing Cuban culture with American culture, discrimination based on language barriers, and the differences between when she was growing up and her students now. Transcript CHRISTINA: Could you please introduce yourself and tell me a little about yourself? MIRTA: My name is Mirta Maria McGee. I was born on February 9th, 1960 in Cienfuegos, Cuba. My parents were Eduardo and Mirta Irueta and I have one sister, Concepcion Irueta and goes by the name of Connie. I am married and have three children. My oldest is Christina at nineteen years old, Nicholas at seventeen years old, and Caitlin who is fourteen years old. CHRISTINA: And where did you do all your schooling? MIRTA: I graduated from the University of Michigan with a BA in education and then I went back to get my Masters in Education at U of M. I also vent to the University of New Rochelle in New York to get my Montessori training for six to nine year olds, and that’s kind of like first, second and third grade, you teach all three grades in the same classroom. And currently I’m getting my Spanish endorsement from Wayne State for grades 12 through... I mean I’m sorry kindergarten through 8th grade CHRISTINA: And what are you doing now? MIRTA: Right now i’m teaching Spanish to grades third, fourth and fifth. CHRISTINA: Explain coming from Cuba to America. Or if you don’t really remember that how was it from living in Florida to Detroit, how was the transitions? MIRTA: Well I left Cuba when I was 2, and we lived in Florida for about nine months so I turned three in Miami and then we moved to Detroit. So I don’t really remember anything from Miami or Cuba because I was too young. But 1 do remember the different houses we lived in when we moved to Detroit. We lived in one neighborhood that was near All Saints. My sister who is seven years older than me went to Page 1 �AU Saints. And then we moved to another neighborhood where we were closer to Saint Gabes and that’s where I went to school. All my schooling from first through to high school was catholic schools, they were private. So one school was first through eighth and then 1 went to Holy Redeemer for ninth, tenth, eleventh and twelfth grade. CHRISTINA: And how were the Catholic schools, how was that compared to what you see now in the public schools? MIRTA: Well it was more disciplined, they were stricter. We... I loved the uniform. I wish more schools had uniform. But it was more restrictive, you had certain things you had to do or you couldn’t do. We had religion every day. There was more of a sense I think sometimes of family than there is now. There were the priests involved in your training. All the Nuns that we had, because being a parochial school a lot of nuns did the teaching, now a day you hardly see nuns. There are so few of them around. My neighborhood was very diverse so we had lots of nationalities living together, learning about each other’s nationalities. CHRISTINA: Were they mostly catholic or was it all different types of religions? MIRTA: No all different types of religions. A lot of the kids I hung out with where Catholic only because we all went to the same school so you usually stick to the friends you go to school with but when we were in middle school and high school and a lot of us worked in the neighborhood tasty freeze. And there, there were all kinds of people. Kids who went to the public school, as well as kids who went to the parochial schools so there were a lot of different religions we were hanging out with at the time. CHRISTINA: So I know you described what it was like growing up but do you have any distinct memories? How was it growing up in the sense that you weren’t necessarily born in this country? And of course people would hear about that and... MIRTA: Well. . we... My parents still followed all the Cuban traditions but then we tried to follow along some of the newer American traditions. We as Cubans don’t celebrate Christmas Day we celebrate Christmas Eve. We still stuck to the Christmas Eve going to church on Christmas Eve and celebrating it after that. Then St. Valentine’s day that wasn’t really a big holiday for us. Halloween wasn’t a really big holiday but because all my friends were doing the Halloween and the trick or treating but so it was a meshing of cultures. Of our culture that we didn’t want to lose sight of and the new host culture of the country we were now living in. CHRISTINA: So did your parents feel that because you were in a new country but obviously you guys stuck to what your customs were but did they change it more because of you or just to fit in? MIRTA: I think it was a little bit of both, to fit in and to make me feel like I was a part of it. And more comfortable if all my friends were doing something and I won’t have been doing it then maybe I would’ve been more left out. More than anything it was more in stuff like holidays or stuff like that. There were still stuff that they... I wasn’t allowed to say like sleepover at friend’s house because my parents didn’t know; they basically didn’t know other parents. And since they didn’t know them, they didn’t feel comfortable with me spending the night over there. I mean I could still go over to friend’s Page 2 �houses, they could come to my house but we didn’t do that whole sleeping over routine and things like that. CHRISTINA: I see, and can you ever remember when you were in school or a time when you had difficulty or you were made fun of or you personally or your sister personally discriminated against? How did you respond to that? MIRTA: Well there were kids that would tease you and call you... . all they knew about Cuba was Castro so they would call you mini Castro or stuff like that. We would get the, since our culture we kinda as babies get our ear pierced. So we had our ear’s pierced and our earrings, and we would kinda get... it was kind of a new thing that Americans were not used to seeing. So we were made fun of for that saying we were barbarians because we had holes in our ears. And being a prochial school we always had a uniform but once a month we had a free day let’s say that you could wear whatever you wanted like a causal day. So naturally all the kids would wear jeans but Cubans don’t wear jeans because Cuba’s a hot tropical island and jeans would only make you hotter. So we wore cotton dresses, cotton skirts, linen, and things like that. So if we wore something like that for casual day then that was also another way for us to be standing out and being made fun of saying that we were freakish because we weren’t dressing like the norm. MIRTA: So how did that make you guys feel? Did it make you guys feel like you weren’t fitting in or was it just like kids will be kids. Or was it different because you were not... CHRISTINA: Well I guess it was a little bit of both. I’m sure there was sometimes when you thought about kids just being kids but other times it kind of upset us because... I guess we felt like we weren’t, our feelings weren’t being taken into consideration, because it was almost like as long as there was something different about you then its ok to make fun of. I guess we were used to other cultures, it wasn’t,.. I mean we didn’t feelthe same way. And our high school there was a huge melting pot of different nationalities. We had the Muslims, we had a big group of Hispanics because there were Mexicans and the Puerto Ricans so there was that big community. And Holy Redeemer is in a Hispanic neighborhood so there was that group and we had a huge group of Arabic people. So they were all doing their thing but I think that on the whole that everyone got along. Everyone kinda realized there were different religions and then at our high school we also had to take religion courses which were world religion that kind of gave you the, taught you all different kind of religions. We looked into the Muslims, the Jewish andwe had field trips where we visited the synagogue and different churches. So I think that also gave us an awareness of other people, their beliefs and their customs so I didn’t feel that, at least during my high school years that people kinda made fun of you. I think by the time we go there, there was so many different cultures all trying to get along that it was a lot easier. I think that in elementary school we kind of stuck out as being different. So it was a little more difficult plus we were new to this country so it was getting used to all that and being made fun of But as we got older and you’re kind of thrown in with a lot more different groups that then you kind of learn to get along better. CHRISTINA: So you feel like once you guys all grew up and you went to school generally with the same people? Page 3 �MIRTA: Yes for like 12 years. CHRISTINA: You all got to know each other and it was bad at first but then it slowly just everyone understood each other got along. And you were more open to cause usually the grades are smaller when you are in elementary and middle school and once you get into high school everything opens up and everything opens up and they realize that its different MIRTA: Yeah and I guess that would probably be, in my case that it probably helped a lot that Holy Redeen er is in or close to Mexican town. So there was a lot of Spanish speaking people, there were a lot of Spanish speaking shops around, bakeries so it kinda it made it easier I would say. Holy Redeemer had a Spanish mass; it had a huge group of Spanish speaking members so… CHRISTINA: It made it easier MIRTA: It made it a lot easier, but even so with any fights that ever broke out in our high school was never between different racial groups. it was always like you know just over silly dumb things but between friends and between groups but it was never raciall motivated. CHRISTINA: Ok, so was there ever like family, how did your parents respond? Because they had been living in Cuba obviously for a long period of time, so the transition would’ve been probably a culture shock, a lot different coming from Cuba to America. MIRTA: Yes I will have to say I always felt that I had to give my parents a lot of credit that leaving when they were... My dad was in his 40’s when he left Cuba to start in a new country, a new job, basically a new language because they took English in Cuba but as anything when you learn the language and then you are immersed in it, to speak it it’s a bit different. When they first came here they had to get used to the language because everybody, in any language they speak faster than when you learn it. When you learn a language everything is ‘how are you”, and no one speaks like that. So a lot of the slang and stuff they had, they didn’t know, and they had to pick up and so it was difficult for them. Beside that, also picking up and starting in a country whose culture is completely different, The climate is completely different. Michigan with its cold and its snow is a drastic change from Cuba which is tropical and warm all year round. And so that was a big transition for them. They left all their family, their friends and all heir possessions. All their keepsakes and pictures and photo albums, everything, to start all over and try to make a better live for themselves. So I think they would’ve had a harder time because my mom had been a teacher in Cuba but her degree was recognized to a point but she had to go back to school to get an endorsement so she could teach Spanish and she almost had to get another degree so she could be able to teach here. So that was also an adjustment, having to go back to school and start all over as well as learn every CHRISTINA: Everything that about America MIRTA: Right CHRISTINA: Where they discriminated against? Did they ever get the rude comments and the... Page 4 �MIRTA: I do remember every once and a while. I remember one day we had just come back from church and we were on our way back home and we stopped at one of those corner mom and pop type stores to get some milk and bread or something like that, to pick up something. We were leaving the store talking amongst ourselves in Spanish and a little old lady stopped us and started yelling at my dad, saying that now that we were in America we should speak English and not any other language. And I remember my dad getting mad and it was a little polish lady. I remember my dad telling her “I’m sure when you go home you speak in polish and nobody is telling you what to do.” My dad felt strongly that just because we were here didn’t mean that we didn’t have to our culture and our language. And the only way we would kept that is if we kept speaking it, and he didn’t want my sister and I to forget the language to forget our nationality and all our traditions. So we still spoke in Spanish, that’s not to say that we didn’t speak in English too but he didn’t want us to forget that. So we did that at home, and that’s how he would make sure I spoke in Spanish so I won’t lose it. So that kinda upset me because I guess, I would hear Arabic being spoken by this family, I would hear Italian by this one, Polish by this one. And to me that never really bothered me, I always thought that it was neat that other people and their language and their customs and their traditions. So I guess I never really understood why somebody would be offended by that but I guess it’s their own I think that when people hear you speak in another language it’s that narcissistic tendency to think that they think you are talking about them. The whole world revolves around them, no we are not always talking about you. It isn’t about them. We are talking about whatever we want to talk about but since they don’t know what you’re saying they assume that you are saying something about them. CHRISTINA: So they didn’t have as much as a problem you would say because you were immersed in the schooling and you were... MIRTA: We still had, I do recall my mom maybe because she spoke more English because she was teaching and she still had an accent, but my dad’s accent was stronger than my moms, and basically it’s because if he didn’t always have to speak it he spoke more of the Spanish. My, not that he didn’t understand you, he understood the English and he spoke it but he didn’t speak it as often as my mom. So I remember going into Sears, and we were buying some kind of appliance, I don’t remember what, but I remember my dad going in there and right off the bat saying excuse me, something about a strong accent or his English was not as good. 1 remember the salesman gushing all over ahhh no you speak perfect English. Which you kinda knew it was a big lie because it wasn’t perfect English you know it wasn’t bad English but it wasn’t perfect English. So he was just buttering him up so he could get his commission and his sale, And he would just go on and ooze about how wonderful my dad’s English was and blah b!ah blah. And then I remember we purchased something and it was a big ticket item and we brought it home. Something happened and it wasn’t working and we had to have a repair or something. I remember going back with my dad and the salesman going “what? I don’t understand you. What do you want? I don’t understand a thing you are saying.” I remember my dad looking at him saying “funny when I came in here to purchase it my English couldn’t have been better but now that there is a problem with something you claim to not understand me.” So I did notice the instances like that, where there would be, their nationality or their English would come into play and then they were treated differently. Also because my dad had the thicker accent people would always assume, because you had the have an accent for some reason you are lacking in intelligence. Or that you’re deaf, so they scream Page 5 �when they talk to you. I’m not deaf I have an accent. I always look at it as no I would think that if you know two or three languages you are a heck of a lot more intelligent than one who only speaks one. So instead of talking down you should try to listen to what they are saying and not treat them like they are ignorant. That I always found to be pretty annoying hut then I think I when I.,. The first job I ever had was working at the Tasty Freeze and the couple who ran it were German. So I was always exposed to them talking to each other in German and I got used to listening to accents. Like my parents had their accent, they had their accent, my best friend was Maltese and I always went over there and I would always like to listen to her mom and dad talking Maltese and so there was all different languages that I was exposed too growing up. CHRISTINA: I see. Now you live in a predominantly white community, would you say that it’s been different than where you grew up, where you were surrounded by so many Hispanics? I mean now you are older and it’s different and times have changed do you think there is a difference? MIRTA: Yes I would, because I think this community (as wonderful as I like where I live) I see where, umm, people are not used to anyone who is different than them. I see how they look kind of differently on the Asians, Indians, Hispanic, and I don’t think they quite know how to deal with them because they haven’t had to. This is a really small community with one high school, two elementary schools, and one middle school, and they really haven’t had to deal with a lot of diversity and I don’t think they know how to deal with it. You hear the adults, you hear the kids becauseobviously they’ve been exposed to it with there parents how they don’t go into the city, because of the crime, they’re afraid to go into the museum, and its really kind of sad because they separate themselves like that. It’s like they’re only comfortablebeing with there “own kind” and frankly I kind of think my childhood was better being exposed to all kinds of people, because there you learn from each other, you learn from their traditions and culture. You learn how to get along as opposed to being strictly with all, lets say white Anglo Saxons and then its like there not used to dealing with anybody else, and if anyone’s just a little bit different they don’t know what to make of it CHRISTINA: Right and I know going to school in the community, if there was one black kid everyone knew who he was and everyone know everything about him just because he was the only one. I mean I never really experienced anyone being discriminated against or racially profiled. You have your Middle Eastern kids that would make jokes about themselves. They would call themselves “the brown kids.” They would joke and talk about themselves. You being a teacher have you seen any bullying or comments being made or anything in the younger grades? MIRTA: No. I would have to think about that but I haven’t really umm what I do whenteach, I mean I, I not only teach them the language, I try to teach them about the culture, because unfortunately when they hear, ok where going to learn Spanish and we talk about Spanish, they unfortunately think the only other country that speaks Spanish is Mexico and they don’t have a clue that there are tons, there is Puerto Rico, South America, Central America, there is the Caribbean, and so I try to open their eyes so they are more culturally aware. So maybe each month we do a country. One month we do Spain, and we learn about what life is like in Spain. What is there music like, what is there dance like? So I show them the flamingo, and what that music is and how it came about and the dancing and how it’s similar. And we do Mexico, and we learn about the mariachi and how it came about. Then we can go and learn about Page 6 �Argentina and the tango, and their culture because you want them to be culturally aware and know that there is a whole world out there and there are different traditions. You know we talk about the DIa de los Muertos and how did that came about. And typically, a lot of our traditions, are Hispanic traditions, come from Roman Catholic faith, because the majority are catholic. I’m not saying every Hispanic is, but the major religion in Spain is Catholicism, the major religion in Cuba is Catholicism and in Mexico. So a lot of these traditions where based on the church. So El DIa de los Muertos was to honor the dead, we didn’t do Halloween, we did that. So during Christmas we do the Posadas, which is the re-enactment of Christ going from inn to inn, not Christ, I should say Mary and Joseph looking for a place to stay and finally finding it at the stable. So all of these are religious holidays. So I try to tell them, this is how this culture celebrates these things because they are all religion based. CHRISTINA: So you’re saying kids now a day are more sheltered than they were in the past. How you were raised and everything, you are culturally aware. You had all the different ethnicities and languages around you. I know you had some white friends, and obviously they were more culturally aware. You see kids now a day and they’re telling you they only think Spanish comes from Mexico, would you say kids are more sheltered now than they were before and they don’t know what’s going on and they are more ignorant if you will, and the parents are to blame because they don’t want their kids to be? MIRTA: I don’t know if they don’t want or if they don’t feel comfortable with or they don’t know enough about. Which is surprising when you think about all the technology out there; you’ve got YouTube and all the different things in the computer, you would think the world opens up more for you now because of all that. I guess to a degree, with the music, they can be more aware. You have your different Hispanic groups and they are opening up and crossing over to the American scene and are more pop. So that kind of teaches them. We had Gloria Estefan and theMiami Sound Machine, which really opened up the Cuban music and brought it to the American scene, and now we have Pitbull doing his rap and that kind of also makes them more aware. So I guess in a way that helps a little bit but otherwise people kind of didn’t know what was going on, so I guess it depends. If you haveparents that are making these kids more aware and are teaching them about thisand are taking them places, if they only stay in their little community and only go to the same kind of places then they aren’t going to know any better. We have a family in my school, they go to Coasta Rica every year for spring break. And so now the kids just love it and they say “we can practice our Spanish there” and they have come back with so many souvenirs that I told the mom who is always bringing me stuff, and I said great because one of my months we are doing a unit on Coasta Rica. And so that also gives them another sense of what’s out there, how people live and what they do. CHRISTINA: And do you think that class has anything do with it? Like social class and the income that people make. Is higher class or lower class more or less aware? MIRTA: Well I suppose class will have something to do with it. If you are better off and you have the funds to be able to travel and you do travel. I mean you may have the money to travel but you never leave and never go anywhere and then of course that doesn’t help. But these people that are traveling and seeing the world that opens up their horizons and opens up their ideas so that they are able to communicate with people and see the differences and if you never leave your back yard then you don’t know what’s out there and you can’t really relate to people because it only what you know and a lot of Page 7 �times what you don’t know and what people don’t know scares them and therefore they shy away from it or sometimes people make fun of what they don’t understand or don’t know. CHRISTINA: Do you see any changes being made in your community in regards to the minority groups that are here? Or are they accommodating them better? MIRTA: Well I think, you made that reference to them calling themselves “the brown group”. I think as the kids have become more outspoken, which is a good thing, they feel more comfortable about themselves that they can be outspoken. That kind of brings the attention to themselves but in a humorous way. They are talking about themselves... CHRISTINA: But not taking themselves to seriously? MIRTA: Yeah, and so that other people can see them. Instead of them fading into the wood work because they don’t want any attention brought to them because they don’t want to be made fun off or they don’t want to be whatever the reason may be. By them pushing themselves in the fore front, they’re trying to make a stand that, “Yeah we are different in these ways, but in other ways we are the same as you”. I do think though that sometimes people mistake when you say something, I don’t want to say criticism, but people get offended if you say something that you do not like about this country or something in that f... as soon as they know that your not from this country they take offense. When really every body has their opinion. I mean, no country, no place that you live can be totally perfect. So there is always something, o this is great but you if you could improve this it would be even better. Its healthy criticism. And I think sometimes people take offense when you say something like that, because right away they want to say “well you don’t have a right to criticize, you shouldn’t say anything.” They might have thought the same thing but they don’t want to hear you say it. I remember when I was in school my sister was in high school and they had a civic project. The class project was that they had to write about/find something that they did not like about Detroit. What problem Detroit had and what they could do to fix it, and Connie wrote about the pollution in Detroit, meaning pollution of the garbage and how the streets were littered and what they should do and how they should clean them up etc. I remember it was an evening andthe principal and the pastor of our school knocked on the door and the principal basically told my sister if she was so unhappy with Detroit and if she thought it was so dirty or had so many problems then maybe we should go back to where we came from. Because if we were criticizing it, then clearly that meant we weren’t happy here and we shouldn’t be here. And first of all I found that to be really rude andoffensive because my dad said to the principal “and are you going to everyone’s house that wrote that paper because that was the class assignment, to find a problem and talk about it and how you would correct it.” And surely they didn’t go to everyone’s house they only went to our house because we were Cuban and not America so we had no right, according to them, to criticize this country. And I just found that to be first of all, in bad taste. You were supposed to be religious people, and that was intolerant and it showed their intolerance. And second of all, if you didn’t want anyone criticizing you country, you shouldn’t have made that assignment, that what the assignment was, so in that case I thought that was a definite case of discrimination, they didn’t like what we had said so they came. CHRISTINA: And they personally picked you out? Page 8 �MIRTA: Yeah CHRISTINA: Is America what you would expect it to be? I know you don’t remember when you came here, but is the image of America, you know, you’re told the melting pot, everyone is mixed together, it is the land of the free, home of the brave, there is opportunity and jobs. Is that what you see it to be? What they tell foreigners is the image of America that what you see it to be? MIRTA: Yes. I believe that you can come to this country and make something of yourself. There is people that leave for religious persecution, people that leave because of the government, which was the case for us. We left a year after Castro took over, because my dad had already been following closely enough to know that he was steering toward communism and he knew it would only get worse. It was bad when we left but it only went down hill from there and he didn’t want his children raised in that environment so he chose to leave and try to make a better home and a better life in a new country and that’s what he in turn did. I do think that other nationalities and other groups of people can be very successful. For instance, there’s different kinds of communities that have come up and have become very successful. If I talk about the Cuban community, the Cubans made Miami what it is today. Miami was a little city no one knew anything about. Older people went there to retire and that was the extent of that. Cubans are the third highest minority in education and social economic status. Turning Miami into a Little Havana and opening up all of their little shops and businesses. They have a Cuban mayor and a Cuban governor. That pushed the city to become famous in all the things that it did. You had Miami Beach that was just strictly a beach that people went to and then what did they do? They turned it into a little jazz area, with little shops, and different Cuban establishments, so yeah, they became very successful and to them that was the American dream. They became successful and they still had part of their culture and they also became Americanized and used part of the American culture but they made that successful and made it there own and they started that whole Calle Ocho, which is 8th street, their little festival. And it started out as a little festival, and as it got bigger and bigger the recruited big names in the jazz community, in the rock and roll community. The Cuban stars as well as other stars and made a name for themselves and kind of opened it up to the world to say “hey, this is who we are and this is what we are about, to learn about it.” It’s a free concert, yeah people go around and buy food and souvenirs, but you got all these big time musicians that they would bring in that were, whether they were jazz or singers, whatever they were that were big names kind of taught a little bit about there culture to the rest of the world. CHRISTINA: So you would say that the American dream is obtainable to those that are not American. It is a possibility; it’s not just something that the Americans just throw out there to get you to come over? MIRTA: No it takes a lot of hard work and it takes dedication and you can’t have the mentality of “you owe me this” and getting free handouts. You know a lot of these people started out small with low paying jobs and they just kept working and earning trying to get to the next best job and just kept working at it until they made it a success. I’m sure it was a lot of hard work, but it was like anything a lot of them went to school and just new that the more education they got the better it would be for them. Page 9 �CHRISTINA: Would you say that when immigrants come to America they take on a new identity, new cultural beliefs, just the way they do things? I know you mixed you Cuban tradition with the American tradition, but do you think that they try to change or do they want to preserve their culture? MIRTA: I guess it depends when they came over and what their feelings are. Depending on the generation, there was the generation of the Italians who came here and were given a lot of problems and so they didn’t speak Italian. I had a lot of friends, depending on when they came; their parents wouldn’t speak to them in Italian so therefore they never learned the language. The parents spoke the Italian but they didn’t want there kids to learn it because now they were in America they had to learn English and they wanted to blend in and didn’t want to stand out because they were made fun of and given a lot of grief because they were a different nationality. And while I understand that and sympathize with that, I think that is really sad because then you are losing a vital part of who you are and those traditions and those beliefs and that language is what your made of. It forms your basis, and to deny that and to forget about that your kind of inhibiting your future, and your children because their losing that richness. They’re not being exposed to the language. They’re not being exposed to that wealth of tradition and culture that there parents where, and it’s wonderful to have these traditions to be passed down form the grandparent, and great grandparent, and this is what we do and believe. Kids love that kind of stuff. Kids love to know the kind of things you did when you were a kid. I think your short changing you children if you just think that because you’re here, you have to be so Americanized. When you think about it, there really is no true American. The only true American is the Native American Indian because everyone from this country came from a different country, like Ireland and Germany. So there are all these different cultures and nationalities here that are blending and I think it makes it richer when you can learn about all these different cultures. “0 wow this is what we did when we were growing up. What did you do?” I just think it makes you a more well-rounded person. CHRISTINA: Would you say minority groups are becoming more outspoken, and they are not just going to conform to what everyone’s doing? They aren’t going to be forcing it down people’s throats but in general, they want to preserve their culture. MIRTA: I would say so because I think now we have so many and there are so many cultures and so many different churches and have festivals, and downtown they still have festivals, like in Hart Plaza they would have different festivals. People go down there and see the Polish festival and Arabic festivals, and I think you learn about their food you learn about their beliefs. I think that opens up a whole new world and I think therefore because of that, I do believe people are more outspoken. Of course we have our times that there were some difficulties like after the terrorist attacks. I felt bad because Arabic people were being singled out because they were suspicious because they could be a terrorist which is not fair for them as a whole because you have a few bad apples that are ruining it for the rest and so anytime there was anybody that looked Arabic then “oh my god lets look at them closely because they might be a terrorist.” And it’s a shame that its come to that, but as well as I understand it, sometimes that’s when people are scared, and we had the same things when there was the bombing of Hiroshima and all of that. We were leery of the Japanese, depending on what happens we have those times that I guess a certain minority group does gets singled out for being untrustworthy and suspicious and I guess to an extent that will always happen I guess, depending on the circumstances. Page 10 �CHRISTINA: So if there is one thing that you could change about how people view you or just minority groups in general, what would you like to see happen? MIRTA: I guess people should be more open minded, be willing to learn new things, be exposed top new ideas. I remember when I was in 8th grade, and we were learning the metric system, one of the 8tI grade students, was complaining, “why do we have to learn the metric system why don’t they learn our system”, and I remember telling him “the majority of the world knows the metric system, we are one of the only countries that doesn’t” and why do we have to learn a new language why don’t they just learn English. When you think about it, most countries, besides aside from the United States, they know their language and they know sometimes two and 3 others. They learn English and sometimes a third and fourth language. I found that to be a really close minded mentality, that the world revolves around me. We are super power therefore why should we have to do that? But as a super power, then we should be able to know more languages, be more tolerant, and sometimes I think we are less tolerant. So I think that if they could learn from that that then it would make them stronger and better, and because of that they would be more well rounded and more tolerant and they would be able to get along better with others. END OF INTERVIEW Page 11 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/99419e270d9df04fa39e80fa539e2b85.mp3 3ab50447ba16bfb65313ee95303a4f16 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_McGee_Mirta Title A name given to the resource Mirta McGee audio interview and Transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McGee, Mirta Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource McGee, Christina Description An account of the resource Mirta McGee was born in Cuba and raised in the United States. She is currently an elementary school Spanish teacher. She discusses balancing Cuban culture with American culture, discrimination based on language barriers, and the differences between when she was growing up and her students now. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-11-22 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6b6c94223593ef444dd1fbb5c600040f.pdf 86b056b10ddabb5a21be8d09deca3497 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Christina McAllister Interviewers: Philip Matro, Douglas Brunner and Chelsea Vanbiesbrouck Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 11/7/2011 Biography and Description Christina McAllister grew up in Lowell, Michigan. She was raised in a Christian home. She discusses her interracial relationship. Transcript VANBIESBROUCK: My name is Chelsea Vanbiesbrouck and we are here today on November 7, 2011 and I am Interviewing Dennis Jones and Christina McAllister about their experience of diversity in West Michigan. Okay, Christina if you would give me some basic information about yourself like where you grew up, your siblings, what’s your family like. MCALLISTER: Okay, I grew up in Lowell, Michigan. It was kind of a farm town. I have six sisters. Both of my parents came from...were married previously, had children, and then had me and my younger sister. So lots of kids, all girls. I was raised in a Christian home, so church and religion and all that was part of my upbringing. My parents were very conservative. VANBIESBROUCK: And what ethnicity are you? MCALLISTER: I am white. VANBIESBROUCK: Okay, and when is your birthday? MCALLISTER: May 29, 1989 and what else do you want to know? VANBIESBROUCK: That’s good for now. Okay, Dennis, where did you grow up, what’s your family like? JONES: I grew up in Waukegan, Illinois. It’s pretty much 45 minutes dead north of Chicago. I actually was closer to the Wisconsin border. But I grew up. I am the youngest of four siblings and my older sister, that is my half sister. My mom, she was in a previous relationship, marriage, and that’s where my oldest sister came from and then me and my brother and my other sister are all from my mom and my dad. Waukegan is kind of an interesting place. I lived on the border of two cities, Waukegan and Beach Park. Beach Park is more of a richer area and Waukegan is like, I guess, the poorer side of the city and so I got to see a lot of both areas, but I also grew up in a Christian home. My dad was a pastor from the time I Page 1 �could remember, so he’s been doing that. And my mom grew up in a Christian home. Her dad was a pastor. My dad didn’t grow up in a Christian home. He was kind of in and out of church and kind of doing his own thing and then he was in the Army for awhile and then he got hurt and that is when he came to know Christ. So he hasn’t always been a Christ-follower, but all my life I have known him as one. So I ended up, I mean, I am black if you wanted to know that. VANBIESBROUCK: Thank you. JONES: No problem. So it’s been kind of funny. I have grown up around all different types of ethnicity with being on the border of two cities with Waukegan and Beach Park. And then also being in the public school system for awhile there from kindergarten til sixth grade and then I started going to a public school from sixth grade on and then I was predominantly around Caucasians. And so it’s never been anything new. Huh? MCALLISTER: You went to a private school. JONES: That’s what I said. MCALLISTER: Oh, you said public. JONES: Yeah, public from kindergarten to fifth grade. MCALLISTER: And then private after that. JONES: That’s what I said. MCALLISTER: Okay. JONES: I love you, too. This is my part of the interview. So, yeah, for the most part I have always been around all different types of races so I have never been the type to kind of shy away from any type of race or just somebody else because of skin color. And I grew up, I have mixed cousins. I had a white cousin there for awhile before they got divorced, if that makes sense. Cousin-in-law. So, yeah that’s kind of a little bit of my story. VANBIESBROUCK: Okay, what about you Christina? Have you always been around Caucasians cause you’ve been in West Michigan? MCALLISTER: Primarily, yes. I went to a Christian high school that was close to Muskegon, which is a lot of black people. And so we had a few black students there. I was not really good friends with any of them. They weren’t the coolest people to hang out with. But my parents always raised me to never look at color when you’re meeting someone, that you get to know their personality and who they are and it’s their morals and qualities and characteristics that count. So even though I was not exposed to a lot of different races, that was something very important to my parents because it was. VANBIESBROUCK: So growing up, did you guys, like, what did you want your boyfriend or your girlfriend, like what qualities did you want them to have and did you think about dating someone from a different Page 2 �ethnicity? Was that part of what you considered or did you not even think about that when you were younger? MCALLISTER: Well when I was younger I never thought about that. I never expected to be with a black guy because I didn’t really know any black people and I certainly was not attracted to any of the ones that I did know. So, my ideal man was tall, dark and handsome which I ended up getting in a little different form. Just kidding. So I guess the most important thing to me was someone who was hardworking and who was going to love me, who loves Jesus, and those are pretty much the most important things to me. VANBIESBROUCK: And Dennis? JONES: For me, I think it’s funny because just the way, ever since I grew up I was kind of the more different one out of my family. “You’re so proper, you’re so this, you’re so that” which I thought was funny. And they always would say, “Yeah, you’re not going to marry a black girl, or you’re never going to be with a black girl.” And I was like, “Yeah I probably won’t.” So I always grew up knowing that I probably wouldn’t date someone within my race or, I guess not knowing, but I always just. I never really always looked at other cultures or other ethnicities before a black person or a black girl if that makes sense. And it’s not like I had anything against them, it was just, I don’t know, being wired that way as a kid and always interested in other cultures and other different looking girls. I remember like in fourth grade, I really liked this Asian girl. That was kind of funny. So that’s never really been an issue for me, like race or anything like that. But, like one of the main things I really grew up wanting out of a girl was a Christian-based faith and grounded foundations in that cause that’s where my family came from, very strong Christians, and just good morals and values about herself and someone that wasn’t, my mom said, “Loose.” I never knew what that meant, but she always said it and I guess I know what it means now that I’m older. So, that’s kind of my story of choosing a woman. VANBIESBROUCK: Okay, Christina, could you tell me how you guys met? MCALLISTER: Yes. We met at Cornerstone University, which is where we both went to college. Dennis was a year ahead of me. It was my Freshman year, his Sophomore year. In the winter time, Dennis was coaching...not coaching...he was helping out with intramural volleyball. He was reffing. And we had seen each other around and stuff and I guess I thought he was cute for a black guy but I was not really interested in black guys, so I never really thought about dating him but we ended up kind of hanging out one night after or during the volleyball games and we had a lot of fun, we really connected. We just kind of like, our personalities like immediately, like it was just so easy to hang out with him and have fun with him and stuff. I guess that was the first time I was like, “Oh, I actually kind of like you.” VANBIESBROUCK: That’s good. JONES: I guess my version is a little different. I remember the first time I met her. We both played sports at Cornerstone and it was near the training room and she was in there and I was getting my ankles taped for practice and she was... I don’t know what she was doing. And I knew her friend Hellen before I knew her and I saw Hellen and I was like, “Oh Hellen, how you doing?” And then in the hallway I met her and she was like, “Oh yeah this is Christina.” And I was like, “Oh hey Christina, how you doing?” And the next Page 3 �day I saw her and I actually forgot her name and I was like, “Oh hey, you. How are you doing?” And then she was like, “My name’s Christina.” And I was like, “Yeah.” And from there I always thought she was a cute girl and stuff like that but at the time she was kind of dating someone else and I was like, “Yeah, whatever.” So I did not really think anything of it and it was a couple weeks later, a month later or something. I don’t know, it was awhile after that and I was just doing the intramural stuff and I was just hyper that night for some reason and then she ended up being around and she ended up falling to my wrath of someone I started talking to. I talked to a lot of people and she ended up being that person that night. I guess it was a blessing? I’m just kidding, it was a good thing. VANBIESBROUCK: So like once you two started getting serious, were either one of you kind of intimidated or scared or nervous about the fact that one of you is white and one of you is black? Or did it just not even cross your mind? JONES: Well for me it didn’t cross mine initially I thought this thing was never going to work out after we had our first couple dates. We both thought we were just like “Alright this isn’t going to work out.” We were really.., the night we met we really had a lot of fun and stuff like that and then when we went on a couple dates it was just like, “Ooo, so..” and that kind of that awkward funk in the air. But as far as being intimidated or anything like that with like race or color, it never crossed my mind initially at all until I guess when I met her family. But that didn’t really bother me. Instead I always, even in high school, I was always the minority so I was always around people of different color and so for me it was easy to just bond and talk to other people and their families. Especially playing sports through high school, always like around my friends’ families, like with my dad being a pastor, it was hard for my mom and him to get out to games and stuff like that or make the long road trips cause they were always involved with church and stuff like that so I always spent a lot of time with my friends’ families or would go over there before practice and hang out with them and their family. So it was always easy for me to get along with a friend’s family, so to speak cause it was just like, “Oh yeah.” It kind of reminds me of high school, so even watching a lot of my friend’s family, like same thing in college with sports and stuff, my family never got the chance to come out a lot, especially being away from home and playing sports. It was always easier to connect with other families cause that was my family at the time, so me meeting her family and being around her never really intimidated me. VANBIESBROUCK: Same for you? MCALLISTER: No, it was very different for me. Dennis was the first black friend I’d ever had and, really, like a genuine friend and so it was really all I actually thought about really was that probably for the first couple months. And I mean I really like Dennis as a person and it obviously didn’t stop me from dating him but it was something I was very like unsure about. I don’t know, I was just curious, because, something I really hadn’t hardly been exposed to at all. So, I stuck with Dennis for the first couple dates cause I wanted to kiss a black guy. JONES: That is exactly what she told me. MCALLISTER: It’s really true. I’ve come this far, I might as well, get to the date where we kiss and... JONES: She told me that after we had been together for awhile. It must have been a good kiss. Page 4 �MCALLISTER: I had a lot of encouragement from my friends and people who knew Dennis that, “Oh, it’s a good thing and it doesn’t matter about color, and all those things will work out.” So all the concerns I guess that I had initially I had a chance to work through and process on my own. And then on my own and kind of with my friends and people who knew Dennis. So by thetime a couple months in when I was really...it was starting to get serious, I knew that I wanted to do it and was committed and that color and stuff doesn’t really matter and those things that could be problems or something in the future, even if they ended up being a problem, I was willing to, I guess, sacrifice or work through it or whatever. . JONES: For me it was just like “Hey, let’s do this thing.” I didn’t like.., nothing crossed my mind about like how people perceived me or if we got looks or anything like that cause it was just normal to be for some reason. Just cause of the way I grew up, the people I was around, the school I went to when I was in high school, being a private school, being primarily around white people and a few other races. But, I mean for me, I guess it was normalized for me at a young age so it just never really bothered me. VANBIESBROUCK: So what was your family’s response to each other or to you? Or their attitude? JONES: My family didn’t care. They were like, “Oh, nice. Bring her around.” “Alright, if I can. Kind of busy.” I don’t know. It didn’t... my family, it wasn’t an issue, it wasn’t a big issue at all. VANBIESBROUCK: Was that partially because you already had people in your family who had already been with white people before? JONES: Yeah, that too. Plus our family background, it’s just always been, “It doesn’t matter,” especially my mom’s side of the family. My dad, a little bit different, because he’s from down south. But with him it was no big deal. It doesn’t matter, so I guess with my immediate family it was like, “Oh, that’s cool. Make sure she’s the right one, make sure you’re looking for all the right things and not just dating her to date her.” They were more worried about the person than the color. VANBIESBROUCK: That’s good. Christina? MCALLISTER: My family’s response was a little bit different. Actually it was really surprising to me because of the way my parents had raised me and taught me to be so open-minded to color and to culture and that kind of thing. I waited awhile before I really brought Dennis home. We kind of don’t bring a guy home unless you are serious about him. It is kind of the family rule. So I brought him home and told some of my family I was serious about him. My mom especially definitely had some concerns about us and our relationship. And that was probably the biggest hurdle as far as this stuff goes, with the whole black-white thing that we had to get through. she...this was before she really got to know Dennis, just kind of going off the whole color thing, basically. VANBIESBROUCK: So like a stereotype? MCALLISTER: Yeah, the biggest thing that tripped her up. JONES: Always fighting the stereotype. I’ll tell ya. Page 5 �MCALLISTER: Well it wasn’t really...it wasn’t really concerns like, “I don’t like a black guy.” It was mostly the cultural differences and marriage is tough already and relationships are tough. And you are going to have to think about your kids and what they are going to have to go through. And you have to think about how it is going to put a lot more pressure on your relationship with something that is already tough. And different...just adjustments between coming together and being married and we had only been dating for a few months, so it was like we were jumping to marriage. But that is what we think about long-term. Anyways, so... but she was just if we are coming from two different cultures to try to bring that together and form a family that has a lot more stresses added to just coming t gether and being a family. So those were their concerns initially. And that was really hard because at that time I was preset on dating Dennis and I really loved him and I wanted that to happen. And my mother’s a very stubborn woman, so my dad being the practical one, they both talked to me and said, “Well these are our concerns about it.” And I told them, “I understand that. I think that things are changing. I don’t think things are going to be as tough as you think it’s going to be. Dennis’s background is probably not as different as you think it is.” So just kind of like I guess setting at ease some of their concerns. And then I continued to date Dennis and do that relationship and that was...my mom has the My Way or the Highway policy, so that didn’t really go over well for her, at first. She really thought the longer we were together, the more it was kind of eating at her that this was a bad thing and she was so concerned about all these things. So that was really tough for us because it got to this point where she was just like, “well we don’t approve of this relationship,” and blah blah blah. So we had to get through that. And my response was, “just get to know Dennis because I think you might change your mind.” And that is how my dad responded, of course, because he is the practical one and the other side of it was Dennis. I think it was hard for you to kind of go through that, but Dennis’s attitude was just that he was gonna just show him who he was and try to win them over, I guess. And he did that. And now, my family absolutely loves Dennis and can’t imagine him not being a part of the family. VANBIESBROUCK: So, Dennis, how did you respond or did Christina tell you what her parents were kind of feeling or did you kind of assume? JONES: At first, I didn’t assume at all but then she told me. I was guess I was taken back by it because I had never been in a situation like this. And for me it was like there was not much we could do. It is what it is. And I think I remember telling her... she was...l remember one night she came to me and she was crying, talking about how she was really upset with her mom and I said, “well, it’s okay. I will just prove them wrong.” I think those were pretty much my words. And I said, “it doesn’t matter.” And I said “from what I can see, your family’s great, but it was probably something they never had to deal with before.” And I was like, my family this is not an issue at all. I reassured her that it’s... we don’t really care about color. And my mission was to kill them with kindness and love and be myself. Like me her dad, we got along really well initially and I think him, the way he acted around me and that way he accepted me was kind of the biggest one, always the boyfriend4ather acceptance thing. And that was huge for me. And then for her mom, it was just like it is gonna be a tough one but we can do it. So that one was just a lot of work and I remember... now thinking back to it, I can see that there was times when she was a little more kind of cautious and stuff like that. But now, it doesn’t even matter. MCALLISTER: Now he’s the family favorite. Page 6 �JONES: I am the family favorite which is pretty sweet. Usually they go through a ranking like, “oh, Pat, Dan, Dennis.” And I mean, it’s usually, I’m at the top, so I take the cake. MCALLISTER: The boys have a ranking system. JONES: Yeah, usually as a family. Usually your youngest sister, her boyfriend always comes in last, but we won’t talk about that. But usually I finish at the top. The only reason I am in second right now is because the oldest daughter had kids. MCALLISTER: Can’t compete with the grandkids. JONES: I can’t compete with the grandkids. But I am a damn close second. We usually talk about it sometimes too, me and Pat. MCALLISTER: That is ridiculous. JONES: Pats really fighting hard for the first place but I can’t do anything about the grandkids. Just give it a while til we have our kids, we’ll be in first. VANBIESBROUCK: So for a while it was kinda like they just didn’t know you so they were hesitant, but once they got to know you. JONES: Yeah I think that was the big thing. MCALLISTER: Yes. My dad grew up in West Michigan where there wasn’t a lot of diversity back in the day. And my mom grew up in California where there was a lot of diversity but moved to Michigan when she was probably late twenties early thirties so this a long time ago and things were really different then. So the diversity she got exposed to was kind of more, I mean times were different back then a lot more people were racists and had those kind of thoughts and didn’t accept people and were segregated. So I think that their background and not being exposed to that was the biggest thing that freaked them out. It wasn’t even necessarily because of the way they raised us they were definitely always you shouldn’t think about people’s color it was definitely something that they were always adament about but I think it was when it actually like happened and came to be that they were like whoah, now what. So it just took a while but I think once they kind of got used to the idea and yeah get to know dennis so. VANBIESBROUCK: Were your friends kind of the same way? MCALLISTER: I think our friends were.. VANBIESBROUCK: Well I mean most of our friends knew Dennis before from school. MCALLISTER: Yeah most of my friends did know Dennis before JONES: I think I knew most of your friends before I knew you. Page 7 �MCALLISTER: Yeah. I mean everyone was really accepting, as far as friends. I don’t feel like anyone like in our age group has ever been weird about it or concerned or anything it’s always like “oh yeah we love you guys!”. So that was good, lots of support that way which is good. VANBIESBROUCK: And your grandparents were the same way? JONES: Well my grandma was the biggest one, she didn’t care who she was. My grandma was like as long as she knows Christ, your fine with her. If you didn’t get out of there so my grandma never really, she was the biggest one, she never saw color ever since I have known her she never cared. Her biggest thing was, like I was saying we have a huge Christian background, it was Christ your good in her book or even if you didn’t it’s not like she hated you but she definitely let know Jesus was the way type of deal. She would sit out on her porch and talk to any and everybody that came by, like all the kids in the neighborhood loved her, she was that type of lady. So color was never an issue she I mean she worked for a white lady for a while if I’m not mistaken, like cleaning her house and stuff like that. So it was not like slave labor or anything like that it was definitely like they were good friends and she just helped her out like that. One of her best friends I can remember was a white lady. VANBIESBROUCK: So like your parents and grandparents are they like the main reason why your so open to different ethnicities or is that just how you are as a person? JONES: I think it’s a little bit of both. I mean, my family has always told me I was different when I was younger ha and they still tell me I’m different like they don’t understand me. Just because I’m a lot of off the wall stuff but just personality stuff they don’t understand, like if you put me in the middle of a forest with a bunch of Indians and ask I could probably start talking to them about a bunch of stuff haha that’s just the way I am. So they don’t understand where I got that from because my dad is a fairly quiet man and my morn is I don’t know she is kind of shy when she meets new people and stuff like that but for me its just like whatever. I don’t know it’s a combination of the way I was raised and developing into a new person. MCALLISTER: My dad’s grandma is really quiet, she doesn’t say much but she has always liked you. JONES: Yeah she has always been nice to me, she never really said anything. I don’t know I’ve always been, unless she hates me and I don’t know about it. MCALLISTER: Ha yeah she is really quiet, she doesn’t really say a lot but she has always been nice to Dennis. JONES: She gives me hugs. MCALLISTER: Ha yeah she likes Dennis. You’ve never met my grandpa. JONES: No I’ve never met your mom’s dad. MCALLISTER: He married a very southern woman, remarried. My grandma died and then he remarried this lady and I know she doesn’t approve of our relationship. She has never met Dennis and neither has he but she likes to speak her southern piece about it. She’s kind of crazy. But um we had a family Page 8 �reunion this last summer and Dennis met my great uncles and aunts, so my grandpa’s brothers and sisters, were all there and then my uncles and aunts. Everybody like loved Dennis so, even my great uncles and aunts, we talked about it like they are from anothergeneration they are all in their gosh sixties seventies, no they have to be older than that now. JONES: yeah seventies. MCALLISTER: At least seventies some of them are in their eighties I think. So totally different generation and we talked about it like it might be a little weird. JONES: And my response was yeah I don’t care haha. MCALLISTER: Yeah. but they loved him, he was there for the first like day or two and then first two days and then he left because he had his own family reunion and the next day when Dennis was gone they were all like Dennis is so great we really like him blah blah blah. My great aunt invited the two of us up to her house in Canada so ha were gonna go up there sometime. But yeah, I was actually really surprised with how accepting they were. Not that I would expect them to be different but just that generations are different and sometimes you never know, people have these strange opinions. VANBIESBROUCK: So like when you two were talking to your parents about each other what was the first thing you told them like Christina did you tell your parents like the first thing you told them was it Dennis is black or was that like the last thing? MCALLISTER: No I actually didn’t really say that at all. I kind of thought that they would just be like that they wouldn’t care at all. And that’s probably me being a little bit naive because of the fact that I never had any black friends and here I am bringing home this black guy, yeah I really like I want to date him haha. They of course are probably going to be like wait at minute. so no obviously I don’t even think I told them that at all and then when I brought him home, they were like oh he’s black ha ha. JONES: Yeah my family just assumed she was a different race. MCALLISTER: Hahaha JONES: They were just like, they knew like ah she’s white huh, and I was like yeah type of deal. But it wasn’t a big thing it was kind of like family joking and fun but it wasn’t a big thing. They were happy, they were pretty happy. They have never said anything about race or anything like that. But yeah, they literally just assumed. “Hey morn I’m dating somebody”, “Oh alright she’s white huh”, “Yup” haha. VANBIESBROUCK: So was it frustrating for either one of you, or Dennis for your family that Christina’s family kind of had reservations about it? JONES: umm VANBIESBROUCK: Or about you two? Page 9 �JONES: I actually, it was kind of one of those things I decided to keep to myself. I didn’t want my family to pre-judge her family. Unless they asked I said something, my morn asked and I think that was one of my biggest, or my mom’s biggest concerns, was them being accepting of me. And she was kind of like, well my mom is kind of one of those conspiracy theorists I like to think. My dad was just like alright make the right choices, see you later. My mom she will talk to me for 15 hours about the same thing. I think her biggest thing was well how those things can go. Something happens with you and her and they will blame it on you and try and go after you and I’m like mom it’s not like that at all haha, oh my gosh she formulates all of these crazy things, its kind of funny but ridiculous at the same time. And that was just her biggest concern, if anything big ever happened like what would they do, would they kind of hold a grudge against me not only because I did something to their daughter their baby but it was a black man that did it. So that was my mom’s biggest concern and I was like ahh it’s not that big of deal. I’m not stupid I’m not gonna do anything crazy. If anyone breaks up she will be the one who breaks up with me. I don’t know why I thought that haha but that’s just the way I thought of it. VANBIESBROUCK: So like in the beginning of your relationship would you guys say you, was like harder because her family was kind of hesitant or was it just one of those things where its something they thought it might be hard whereas a Christian family might think it’s hard to dat a Catholic but you get over it. Was it the same thing? JONES: In a way. I think it was mainly for me, her parents. I wanted to make sure her parents were ok with me and winning her parents over. Her sisters were, they just didn’t care. They were like oh yeah he’s great type of deal, and so for me it was just her parents. I just wanted acceptance of the parents. MCALLISTER: I mean it was hard for a while. But they did get over it and pretty quickly. And my family really does love Dennis now. VANBIESBROUCK: So is it weird going to a white household for a while, have you learned any new traditions or like weird things that your family doesn’t do? JONES: Haha yeah there are a few, I can’t name them, but there was one thing I don’t know. Like just, I guess Thanksgiving we call it “soul food” haha. We call it dressing, what you guys call stuffing. And I remember my mom, like parents told me “your like a chameleon you can take on the attitude and shape of anybody your around. If your around Mexicans you will somehow try and speak Spanish. Or if your around white people how to talk like a white person and be like a white person. If you’re around black people, you may not know how to talk like a black person but how to sound like, bionics, be around them and how to hold a conversation”. VANBIESBROUCK: Like fit in. JONES: Yeah. And then so I don’t know I went home and like unconsciously I was like yeah I’ll get some stuffing and my mom goes “what did you just say”, I was like “ah I meant dressing sorry”. Haha like I know it’s a taboo but just simple things like that with food and stuff. I don’t think like cultural things. I think this is funny, like, face towels-we use face towels all the time at home to wash up and take showers and stuff like that and every time I’m like you don’t use face towel? No I don’t need a face towel why would I need a face towel to wash up, a face towel is for your face. That’s kind of one Page 10 �different thing, and they are like you picked that up off those white people. I’m like no I didn’t I’ve always been that way! Anyway. I think that for me is just kind of the funny things. VANBIESBROUCK: Any for you? MCALLISTER: Yeah. The first time I went to Dennis’s house it was really crazy. I couldn’t understand what anyone was saying like the whole time I was there. Well his dad has a really deep, southern accent so he is like impossible to understand, well he was at first. JONES: I’m like the only one that can understand my dad. Most people, like my brothers and sisters, after he comes back from being down south they can’t even understand him. But for me it’s like oh yeah I’ll go get that for you and they are like what did he say? So I knew my dad would be a tough person for her to understand in the first place anyway. MCALLISTER: Yeah but , it was definitely like a lot more of a culture shock than what I thought it was going to be because like spending time with Dennis I knew his habits and things like that about him but he is like a white black man and I didn’t really realize his family is not that way haha. VANBIESBROUCK: How long had you been dating Dennis before you met his family? MCALLISTER: Four months. So, gosh I can’t remember. Yeah it was hard to understand them, they always liked to talk about past experiences and like family stuff. They have all these like family stories and secrets, not like secrets but jokes or whatever. And so I like didn’t say very much at all the first time I was there and um, and then we went to let’s see, we went to their church and that was really crazy haha. Um I had never been to a black church before and it was very interesting. It was really loud, everyone was singing and dancing. Lots of amen’s and thank you Jesus, lots of that kind of thing. I had never seen his dad talk like that before. JONES: Yeah my dad is super quiet at home, doesn’t say much, but when he talks its like very profound and so wisdom filled and your like man! And then when he gets in front of the pulpit he will talk for hours and hours upon end and your like shut up I want to go home and watch the bears game. Sometimes by brother and I will sit in the back and kind of give him the cut throat like you need to stop. MCALLISTER: Ha well it’s not just talking he like goes on rants. JONES: Yeah he takes a lot of rabbit trails when he’s preaching so she was like I didn’t understand a word or I didn’t understand the message at all. MCALLISTER: Yeah it was very different. I was used to like teaching out of scripture he was just going on. VANBIESBROUCK: Or like an outline to follow? MCALLISTER: Yeah, which I later learned that’s what they do in their bible study. They do that before but the service we went to, I don’t know, was like a praise and worship service. That’s what it seemed like to me. Page 11 �JONES: A lot of church in my family growing up, they have so many different services I can’t even remember them all its crazy. MCALLISTER: So that was probably the craziest thing that I experienced first. JONES: That was my biggest fear, was taking her to church with my family. I still am like I don’t want you going to church with my family) don’t want you to like run away haha. Seriously. MCALLISTER: (didn’t’ run away, I was clapping and singing and I got really into it! JONES: I still am afraid to take her home, to church and we’ve been dating three and a half four years. VANBIESBROUCK: So that’s not the type of church that you would want to go to as a couple? Or Dennis you just like white people’s church better? JONES: For me, it doesn’t bother me I just want her to be comfortable because I’ve seen everything being in a black church. So I think for her (just want to see her comfortable and I can pretty much fit in with any scene. I like the church that we go to now. MCALLISTER: We go to my family’s church now. JONES: That was funny, I was terrified to bring her home. I was like man I don’t know what my family’s going to do, they are going to embarrass me. (think that was my biggest thing rather than race I was like I hope they don’t say anything stupid. VANBIESBROUCK: Did they make jokes about Christina being pale or anything? JONES: My mom made a couple of jokes. MCALLISTER: Yeah actually the first time I was there they did. It was funny. JONES: My family is very like joking, like we make fun of each other all the time. I think that’s typical with a lot of black families. That’s kind of how we express our love. We just make fun of each other haha. Like me and my brother, we never really tell each other I love you but it’s kind of one of those things . Me and him always grew up making fun of each other, my sister too. Like I’ll call her and be like “hey what’s up ugly how you doing”, she’s like “oh hey stupid” its just like oh ok like understood that we love each other. Even bringing in the way I grew up, that was kind of one of the tougher things because my family doesn’t really express a lot of love and we’re not like super touchy feely. And that was actually kind of the way I was raised and seeing my dad express his love for my mom and that was tough because that’s what I grew up around and thought it was normal, apparently it’s not. I mean not that it’s not normal but a different way of, like I would show her my love through just acts and stuff like that. MCALLISTER: Slapping me on the shoulder ha. JONES: Yeah and uh for her it was like “why don’t you tell me you love me, why don’t you do this for me, or take care of that for me”? And I’m like what I thought I was showing you I loved you. So I think it was, Page 12 �just being around that too growing up, was kind of one of our tougher hurdles. Learning the love language. VANBIESBROUCK: So was it, I mean is Christina like anybody else you’ve dated before? JONES: No actually. I don’t think I ever really haha. MCALLISTER: Normally he is really into chubby blonde girls haha. JONES: That’s not true at all! Couple blunders in my dating career but I got a couple lookers in there. I’ve had some good-looking girls, maybe not dated them but hahah but it’s not a big deal. You haven’t had quite the greatest dating career in your path either have you. MCALLISTER: I’ve had lots of great guys. JONES: A lot of questionable decisions there huh. No but I forgot the question haha. VANBIESBROUCK: Ha, if she is like anyone you’ve dated. JONES: Ah no she’s not. Totally different from any other girl I’ve dated. VANBIESBROUCK: Personality-wise? JONES: Yup, personality-wise, yeah real different. And I think that’s what drew me to her. I was like oh she might be a keeper. And then haha, also the also her faith and everything. That was something that really kind of got me. My mom was like “if you find a girl that believes in God and trusts in God that’s really rare in this world now a days and she’s like if you find a girl that, you need to keep her”. And I remember those words. And I remember one time I was home for a holiday and my uncle who, which I thought was kind of funny, was kind of a ladies man and like kind of a player/dog. And he was just a dog, dirty dog, but I love him. He was like “well son I’ll tell you one thing, if you find a girl that can make you change then that’s a girl you need to keep” and I remember those were two big things that made me really search in her to make to be like is this someone I want to keep in my life and marry. And I still can say I hold true to those words and she has definitely lived up to those. MCALLISTER: Aww JONES: Oh geez now I’m getting mushy haha. VANBIESBROUCK: And Dennis is nothing like a guy you’ve dated before? MCALLISTER: no not really. He is a lot different I guess, there are certain traits that are similar to certain guys but I guess overall in general he is pretty unique. obviously I’ve never dated a black guy before so that was new haha. I guess the things that I liked about hirn was that he was always really friendly, outgoing, really easygoing, really easy to get along with. Probably, the guys I dated before were a lot rnore emotional and like crabby. JONES: She liked pretty boys and skinny Jean type guys Page 13 �MCALLISTER: No I didn’t JONES: Yes you did. You liked the emo kids. MCALLISTER: That’s not ever true. I never even dated an erno guy. I dated a country bumpkin, and an athlete. That’s pretty much it. JONES: doesn’t count as an athlete. Hahahaha. MCALLISTER: He doesn’t count as an athlete. He doesn’t count as anything. I didn’t even put his narne on this recording. JONES: She can ‘X” it out. Hahahaha MCALLISTER: anyways, yeah I forgot the question. VANBIESBROUCK: So I guess like, you guys’ personalities kind of trump the fact that, that you are different ethnically? JONES: Yup MCALLISTER: Yup definitely. JONES: for me yup. MCALLISTER: yeah. JONES: I would have to say, that is definitely the biggest part for me that was the biggest one. MCALLISTER: Our families met this summer. JONES: Yeah thats wierd that our families actually met for the first time after, well being so far away and, being 4hrs. away is always tough to try and coordinate something, yeah. MCALLISTER: Both busy. JONES: Yeah are families met for the first time this summer it was, I though it went pretty well. MCALLISTER: Yeah it went great. My ah, JONES: My mom was kind of quiet, kind of I thought. My Brother does, he always talks. He did a lot of talking. I kind of wanted him to shut up, but thats fine. You’ve met my brother before. Like before you met my whole family, you met my brother. Cuz he was running track and we went to one of his track meets in Grand Rapids. It was me, you, ted and Hilary. It was, never mind I won’t put that on tape. I was going to say it was the first time I farted in front of you. Hahahahaha. MCALLISTER: oh yeah, umm. JONES: It prolly caught it. Hahahaha Page 14 �VANBIESBROUCK: Probably. MCALLISTER: No it went, it went really good. I think we both were a little bit nervous for. I mean my side of the family with our history and then. Even, even with Dennis’ family, like his mom is pretty quiet and can be kind of, I don’t know, introverted I guess. VANBIESBROUCK: Like she knew how your family felt about it? MCALLISTER: Yeah, I mean, I don’t know that that was really a concern at that point. JONES: I don’t know, My mom is kind of, I, I don’t know. MCALLISTER: maybe. JONES: It could have been. I don’t know. I can say that my mom kind of does have a tendency not to forget things. That could have been it. But my dad he’s just naturally quiet so he wasn’t going to talk anyway, unless. MCALLISTER: He, he was talking. JONES: but yeah, yeah he was talking. I think he is more worried about if, His biggest thing is if people can understand him. He, He’s got a little bit of a slur. When he grew up, he had a slight speech impediment, and his brothers kind of had to translate for him alot. So he, he is very conscious of the way he talks and stuff like that. So my dad is a little more quiet unless he is over the pulpit which it should be reversed. Um and then my mom she is usually very outgoing. But she is very shy when she meets new people or is in a new setting and she is. First of all she is deathly terrified because she thought we were going to go out on a boat and she hates the water. And she was terrified that they had dogs, and she hates dogs. And I’m like you are ridiculous. Like my dad he doesn’t care about dogs, but my mom is “Oh my gosh they got dogs can you ask them to put them away”. I was like mom, you’re going to visit over to someone’s house are you going, Luckly, I know them well enough to where they would do this for us and I was like I’ll ask ‘em. And so for me I was like you have all these reservations and questions, ugh. I think they briefly met at my graduation, but it wasn’t like for an extended period of time. Everybody was kind of out in their own worlds. So. But. VANBIESBROUCK: Didn’t your mom say something that was.. MCALLISTER: oh yeah (Laughter) First of all, what did she get, yeah she got orange pop, I told her, she was asking what, well do they like to eat? What do they like to do? And I told them like, Dennis’ mom don’t do a lot of water sports, she’s afraid of the water. She doesn’t like dogs also, so we put the dogs away and all that stuff. And then she’s like what do they like to eat? Well, they eat a lot and they like just about anything but, I was saying a few things that I knew that they liked that we had before, and I was like they like grape drink. I know it’s a stereotype but they really do like it. So she went out and bought orange pop, she didn’t even buy the right thing. And then at dinner she was giving drinks to everybody she’s like “Christina told me that you guys like orange pop”. And I was so embarrassed... JONES: She said “you guys”. I was like aahh. Page 15 �MCALLISTER: I mean, no one was offended but it was funny. JONES: She is very hospitable and nice. And her mom just has a tendency just to say things, and that was just one of those things. That was pretty funny. I was just like “ooohh..’ (laughter) MCALLISTER: My niece and nephew loved Dennis’ mom. They were snuggled up to her for most of the night. JONES: Yeah, Cameron, he was just sleeping. Maddie had a ton and ton of stories for my mom. My mom didn’t understand a word she was saying probably. But... and then she was like “ooh this is the little baby you always talk about.” And I was like yeah, she’s adorable. My mom used to run a daycare so she really loves kids. VANBIESBROUCK: So after they met, did either one of your parents tell you “Oh, I was expecting it to go this way, but it was really great, or...” JONES: To tell you the truth I haven’t really talked to my parents. Or, I’ve talked to them since then, just haven’t asked my parents what they thought. My brother and my sister were like “Oh it was really great I loved it, it was really good to sit down and talk to them and get to know them a little better.” So my brother and my sister were excited and happy about it. I guess I should probably talk to my parents. I think it went good, in my opinion. I don’t know, maybe I’m overlooking stuff. But I thought it was good. Sounds like a business meeting. (laughter) MCALLISTER: Um, no, my parents were good. I think my mom was nervous about... She was nervous about having people over anyways... And I think she was nervous aboutJONES: “My house is a mess, oh my gosh!” MCALLISTER: -Yeah, I mean, impressing them, well not impressing them, but making them feel comfortable and welcome. like a hostess I guess. She’s like that with everybody. But I think because it was Dennis’ family she felt a little more pressure. So, I don’t know. I think it went really well though. My mom said “Oh Dennis’ family is so nice and it was so nice to spend time with them.” That’s pretty much what everyone in my family said. So she invited them back up for another time. (Laughter) VANBIESBROUCK: -For more orange drink... (Laughter) MCALLISTER: Yeah for more orange drink, and for a ride on the lake. Page 16 �JONES: My dad would go, but my mom would just freak out. She’s like “we’re not going on the boat right?” I was like I told you three weeks ago that we’re not going on the boat. I don’t need to tell you again, If do i might take you on the boat just to scare the crap out of you. (Laughter) VANBIESBROUCK: So have you guys noticed that whenever you go out on a date or you go hang out with people have you noticed that people treat you different? Or do the people that you see in restaurants and stuff, they just don’t care? JONES: To me, in my perspective, I don’t know about Christina, but to me the people in west michigan... I don’t know, I guess it depends on the area, where you’re at. But most people it doesn’t seem like they really care. I don’t know we’ve never really received any snide remarks, I guess a couple of whoops from black girls. Like “what is he doing with her?” (Laughter) VANBIESBROUCK: They’re just jealous. JONES: I don’t know but when we’re out, I guess I never really pay attention to people. This is just who I am, I always keep my head down when i walk and i’ll put my head up when i see someone, kind of make eye contact. But, I don’t know. I always keep my head down or look at her when we’re out and walking and stuff like that. And then I think with society and the way we were raised and our generation, it’s normal. So I don’t think a lot of people care. VANBIESBROUCK: Yeah, so you expect it more from older people. JONES: But yeah now i think that even more older people are starting to say “Ahh, what the heck it’s no big deal.” I mean if I went down south I’d probably get lynched... (Laughter) No I’m just kidding, I’m kidding. That was a joke, totally too far, I know. VANBIESBROUCK: What about you Christina? Have you noticed... MCALLISTER: No, I don’t notice those things at all anyways. But , I definitely haven’t noticed anything like that. JONES: I don’t think we’ve ever received like a... VANBIESBROUCK: We’ve had a lot of people like, well, in church, Dennis is the only black guy in our church (laughs). And I was actually kind of nervous about that. Because. Not nervous that it would go badly but nervous that he would feel uncomfortable or awkward. But we had so many people come up to us and like “Hi, so nice to meet you” and whatever. And people who know Dennis now love him. We’re helping out in the youth group now. The leaders are all about him and the kids all love him, I think it’s cool he’s black. JONES: I think it’s funny, the youth retreat we went out on it this weekend. And I think just like being out towards Grand Haven/Spring Lake area there’s not a lot of black people. But all the kids were kinda Page 17 �telling jokes and I tell a black joke and they’re all like (gasp) and I’m like “no it’s okay, you can laugh!” And they’re like “okay!” (laughs) To me honestly I think it’s hilarious when people are really cautious about saying black or african american... I could really care less. I remember like for me, I don’t know why they see it as a challenge and they’re like “Oh yeah, let me go talk to him” (laughter). Like we were just at a wedding and the guy goes “yeah my grandma, she’s kind of racist.” And I go “really? Can I meet her? Like I want to talk to her.” And he’s like “sure but I don’t know...” I was like “I don’t care, I want to talk to her and just see what happens.” Like that’s just really, I guess I kind of see it as a challenge. And (laughs) I don’t know, that’s just kind of my attitude toward everything. Like I mean, to me it’s like I don’t see any reason to put skin color above a person. So, I don’t know. Ever since I’ve been growing up between me and my group of friends we’ve always got racial jokes and stuff like that. Not just about black people and stuff like that but about other races obviously it’s joking amongst friends and stuff like that (laughs). VANBIESBROUCK: So Christina you mentioned how your mom was saying how it would possibly affect your kids. Have you guys talked about that? Or do you think it would even be an issue in the years to come? MCALLISTER: Um, I mean we’ve talked about it, But I don’t think it will be a big issue. I think that the longer we’re together, the less that I see color in Dennis and the more I see just us in our relationship. And those fears just kind of fade away as we’re kind of bringing our lives together and as we’re deciding how we’re going to, as a couple, raise our kids. And i think that’s kind of everyone’s concern is just making sure that we raise them how we wanna raise them and not really worrying about race. Because if we bring them up right then it’s not even going to be an issue. So I guess that’s kind of... We make jokes about, “well what if they marry black kids? Or what if they marry white kids?” (laughs) But , I don’t think it would matter either way for us. JONES: No. I guess to me i kind of see that it is, nowadays, you always see mixed kids. I mean when I was growing up in public school I was always around a ton of mixed kids. you get the looks like “man why are your eyes green and your hair is kinda course like a black person?” (Laughter) Or like, those types of things you wonder. But growing up around it and , seeing it more prevalent, in Hollywood and more now around our age, and once we’re starting to recognize the differences in people... It doesn’t really dawn on me what will my kids think. To me, they’ll fit in just fine. MCALLISTER: People have talked about as mixed kids, do you identify with the black culture or the white culture? I think the cultures are mixing in together a little bit more. And I think our focus is just going to be on raising them in I guess a culoture that we feel is healthy and right and appropriate. And hopefully they won’t identify with... Hopefully they’ll be chameleons like Dennis. That they’ll feel comfortable around anyone and everyone. that they won’t see that. They will just see people. JONES: I think more or less, once you stop focusing on skin color you kind of forget. “Oh yeah I forgot you were black. Or I forgot you were Mexican.” (Laughs) I remember in high school our coach was black but he is married to a white woman and one day we had this huge team sleep over, kind of like a team building thing. And we were going through their house and we were like “Oh yeah,” Like we saw a picture of our coach, our coach was black, and we saw a Page 18 �picture of him and his family and they were all like “Oh, yeah” It was one of those things that dawns on me like it’s one of those things where you really see a person for a person, and not skin color. You really do forget, to me I forget, and I’m like “oh yeah that is right, they really are different than I am.” Skin color-wise. MCALLISTER: I’m a little worried about our kids’ hair. JONES: Yeah she’s always like “You’re gonna have to do their hair, ‘cause I don’t know how to do it.” Like if it’s a boy it’s alright ‘cause I know how to cut hair. I’ll cut his hair right off. MCALLISTER: That’s our biggest concern right now. VANBIESBROUCK: Is hair? (Laughter) JONES: Yeah, I’ll have to teach her the ropes if they come out with coarse hair like black people. I’ll show her how to do it. If they come out with white people hair that’s totally up her alley. MCALLISTER: The poor girls are gonnna be hopeless. JONES: Ah no, my cousins came out with good hair, with white people hair. I don’t know why we say white people or black people hair. fine hair. Non-coarse hair. There ain’t nothing wrong with my hair! (Laughter) VANBIESBROUCK: So do you guys have anything that you would want to say to someone who was against interracial relationships? Or is it kind of like you have to be in one to really understand? JONES: Hmm.. Give it a try. No I’m just kidding. (Laughter) No I guess coming from, I mean I’ve had my times were skin color is an issue and I’ve seen both sides where people accept you and people reject you. And I think my biggest thing is , it may sound kind of cliché, but it was so long ago. like give it up. If all you see is color then you’re just, in my book, just kind of lost. Of course that’s how society is raised, that’s how society sees people, as their skin color. It’s stereotypes. But if you don’t get to know the person then you’re doing yourself a big disservice basically by judging a book by it’s cover. If Christina had never talked to me, she’s never been around black people, she’s probably just like he’s another one of those ghetto people just trying to chase basketball dreams (laughs). But not me! I was ready to give up basketball for crying aloud. But , it’s just one of those things where I think to me, this is how I see it. You’re not doing anything to me, you’re just doing more harm to yourself by harboring that hatred and harboring those feelings. To me, I’m fine. You can look at me all day and say “Oh my gosh blah blah” it’s not doing anything to me. It’s hurting you more than me. MCALLISTER: I don’t know, I guess with me it’s the same kind of thing. I haven’t had to deal with any of that kind of stuff my whole life so I guess it’s not something I’ve been real passionate about. Haven’t had a lot of personal experience, just in this relationship and with our families a little bit. I can say that when my parents were having a hard time with it I told them that they just need to get to know Dennis. I said Page 19 �“to me, this is worth whatever problems we might have because of this. This relationship is worth it. that’s all. END OF INTERVIEW Page 20 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/44cabebbd26511771c337b16da8e3465.mp3 c0c1ce94fa97fa75a004fc24da4c4e7e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_McAllister_Christina Title A name given to the resource Christina McAllister audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource McAllister, Christina Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Matro, Philip Brunner, Douglas Vanbiesbrouck Description An account of the resource Christina McAllister grew up in Lowell, Michigan. She was raised in a Christian home. She discusses her interracial relationship. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-11-07 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a439aced87ed7185d2660dff223507f2.pdf 9675f36ea32682280c9efbd63811f95e PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Jose Jimenez Interviewers: Timothy Robertson, Ashlie Hood and Angelica Perez Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/24/2012 Biography and Description Jose Jimenez was born in Caguas, Puerto Rico and lived in Chicago. He discusses his experiences as the leader of the Young Lords and an activist for Latin Americans. Transcript JIMENEZ: So the name of the class is what? HOOD: US diversity, diversity in the US JIMENEZ: Oh diversity, ok ROBERTSON: So we will essentially be conducting an oral history which I’m sure you have way more with experience than we do JIMENEZ: No I don’t have any experience this is my first time that I’m doing the history, the oral history ROBERTSON: Oh nice, right on JIMENEZ: Yeah I don’t have any experience ROBERTSON: Then it will be a new experience for the both of us; essentially we will be running through basic history about you JIMENEZ: Ok ROBERTSON: Integrating a few points of what kind of built you personally and then like your opinion of home JIMENEZ: Ok where do you want to start, what’s your name again? HOOD: Ashlie JIMENEZ: Ashlie? Ok I’m José, ok ROBERTSON: To start actually if we can get some basic information about you Page 1 �JIMENEZ: You do have a lot of questions? Or is that ROBERTSON: Well these are… JIMENEZ: Background stuff ROBERTSON: Yeah, they JIMENEZ: Ok ROBERTSON: Just some basic questions JIMENEZ: (laughing) ROBERTSON: We kind of developed our own from this so JIMENEZ: Ok so you want some basic personal questions first or ROBERTSON: Yup. Yeah the first, if you could introduce yourself JIMENEZ: Ok, I’m José Jimenez, the nickname I’ve had for most of my life is cha cha, C-H-A C-H-A (spelling out cha cha) and I got that, it was more like a people in the neighborhoods usually get nicknames in a negative way so they were kind of little racial in nature because this guy used to call another black person sambo and he called me a cha cha cha, and so as more, I was just a little kid, but as more Latinos came into the neighborhood. I, I kind of liked the name cha cha so I just kept it, some people get called frog face or whatever, (Ha-ha) I just kind of liked the name cha cha ROBERTSON: If you could tell us date of birth and location JIMENEZ: Ok, I was born in Caguas, Puerto Rico. My family is from the country but of course I was born in the city, in the town because my older sister had died and my mother was worried because there was no medical treatment in the country so she moved to the town of Caguas but us when I went back to Puerto Rico when I was fifteen years old, all I knew was the country. I came straight from Chicago back to the country there. It was actually a good experience because I spent a lot of time with my grandfather, Egragrorio Jimenez, and I mean I had to use the two bulls to turn ground and… ROBERTSON: Oh wow JIMENEZ: And coming from Chicago there was real whole awakening for me. The whole country, the whole culture, the music of the people that they had there so I was able to catch a lot to really appreciate the country life of Puerto Rico there ROBERTSON: Kind of to bounce off that, what kind of ancestry did you have? JIMENEZ: I had, well my great grandfather and my great grandfather, they’re all Puerto Rican so. On my mother’s side there’s a lady that comes directly from Spain but basically we’ve been Puerto Ricans for generations. We came when I was two years old, my father did not own his own property, he did not own his own farm so he worked on other peoples farms. At the time they called them agregaros, so Page 2 �aggregated or connected because they were able to get some space for their house in somebody else’s land and that’s how you make a living, you work for the farmer and so there was a large farmer named Jimenez which is my last name and he worked for him, a lot of people worked for him at that time. Later on my grandfather was able to purchase a lot a large a lot where his sons and daughters were able to work because there were about 13 or 14 of them, brothers and sisters so siblings. So they were able each of them to have their own section, and so things improved later, after this large land owner Jimenez left the area. Ah, well that was just the way of life. People were not angry with him, it wasn’t like slavery or anything like that it’s just that he had money and he was able to provide for other people at that time, it was his business. from my father, because he worked at the farm it was easy for him to, when the united states was having trouble with Mexican workers because of their documentation and their papers and that Puerto Ricans were citizens of the united states so the united states, the US companies went to Puerto Rico to bring Puerto Ricans here to work in the fields, so my father came and he worked by concord Massachusetts when there was still farm land at that time and he did that since 1945-46 and then he moved up and they let him drive a tractor because he spoke a little English and so he went back and brought other people to, to near Boston to the Andy voy farms. Andy voy farms were connected, they were the farms providing vegetables to Campbell’s Soup Company because I tried to do some research on them and that’s what I found out. But so he was bringing in people so, but the conditions were not that well because they would come and they would have to work from early in the morning to late at night and they had nothing else to do to socialize, I mean a lot of them started drinking alcohol became their way to relax on the weekends because on the weekdays they had no time to relax and they and they didn’t know anybody. ROBERTSON: It certainly becomes a social conflict JIMENEZ: Yeah yeah, so he did that for a few years and then he brought my mother and myself to concord and then my sister Juana was born there and from me moved, after he brought us here. I guess even though we had our own little cottage life, I guess he didn’t like that environment for us, for the family environment. It was mostly just men working there. Although my mother, she started making money ironing clothes, and she was making more money that he was. Because she was ironing clothes for the men and the place ROBERTSON: Mmhmmmm JIMENEZ: But there were more family in Chicago so his sisters and brothers were I Chicago so he decided to move to Chicago in 1950 and that’s when we lived in a, what they called a new barrio, a neighborhood a new community because it was developing in Chicago at that time. So everybody kind of knew each other, I would say there was maybe ten thousand Puerto Ricans at that time in the city and they were kind of spread out like Clark, around Chicago avenue, Clark was a neighborhood developing, it was a Puerto Rican neighborhood, it actually was it actually was a skit row area because there was a lot of hotels that they were converting into apartments and rooms and stuff like that it was a little rent. They were ready to tear down the buildings and so there was low rent and that was where Puerto Ricans can go. I mean most of them were migrant workers anyways so they were just coming Page 3 �there to work for a few years and to go back, the same as my father was doing in concord Massachusetts ROBERTSON: Right JIMENEZ: But this time it was in a city and factories and they were trying to make enough money to go back but the plane fair was very expensive and then it wasn’t just the plane fair but when you went back to Puerto Rico, you had to put a fassad, like you had money. So you go there and everybody’s expecting you to buy drinks and everybody’s expecting you to wear the best clothing and everybody’s expecting you to act like your upper class because you have money and you’re an Americano, you’ve been to the united states and so those things were hampered with the travel back and forth because people had to put their fassad to pretend that they were something that they weren’t. ROBERTSON: That’s an interesting condition though, I mean to me essentially what you’re saying is that the condition I Puerto Rico was just a lack of employment and that’s what drove you to the states JINENEZ: Exactly that was very you k know when there is employment here at 90% you’re looking at even at right now 30% in Puerto Rico so it’s definitely by triple the amount that it is here so those were bad times there in the early 50’s, late 40’s and people were looking, there was a big migration at that time of Puerto Ricans coming not only to Chicago but to the Midwest and the steel mills and to the hotels they had a, my uncles had a favorite quote that they used to talk, if you asked them what kind of work they were in they would say that they were gravando discos making records. What they meant by that they were spinning records, what they meant by that they were washing dishes (Tim and Ashlie begin to laugh) because there were so many of them that were living in the well they were working in the hotels in Chicago we lived like six blocks away from the downtown so I mean that was and that kind of created a bad problem later because it was prime real estate so the few Puerto Ricans that were able to buy some houses cheap resold them cheap then there was a whole land grabbed in that area of downtown which is where we came in later, we were, cause we kept moving, we didn’t know, I mean we were not connected to the city at all, we were not connected to the politicians or anything like that or we didn’t pay attention, our parents didn’t pay attention to the news or anything like that because they didn’t speak English ROBERTSON: Right JIMENEZ: And we were young we didn’t care about it and we were like disconnected from the city. Like Mexicans are today, a lot of Mexican people immigrants, are today they are kind of in their own world they’re disconnected and that went like that for a while through generation until we started to go to school and making our own little connections and that but, so we kept moving from one place, we lived there for a few years then we got pushed out of there and moved to another place and so you read in some of the books today that Latinos or Puerto Ricans moved a lot but what they didn’t say was that it would be renewed and being pushed out from on, I mean because we didn’t know that they were trying to re develop the whole lake front ROBERTSON: Okay Page 4 �JIMENEZ: So we just kept moving north along the lake front and so we kept on being pushed out ROBERTSON: So that that berry field then pushed you farther away from downtown JIMENEZ: Right and then they were trying to develop the downtown and the lake front so we were always near downtown I mean because of our jobs because we were with the dishwashers, the women with the hotel, with the maids, with the rich people, they cleaned people’s houses and companies were recruiting women from Puerto Rico to do that and they I can’t think of the name right now of one of the companies but they actually they companies and it was cheap labor they were looking for that and you’re dealing with citizens, you’re not dealing with someone that is not a citizen. Puerto Ricans were born citizens. In 1966 we were getting were for our first world war, and so we were made citizens of the united states, there was no vote or anything like that, they just said you we’re giving you this right to be a citizen and the next day you got to go to war ROBERTSON: Of course JIMENEZ: But it’s true, why would you become a citizen in 1917, what was going on was the war you k now ROBERTSON: Right JIMENEZ: So anyway we were citizens and it gave us some benefits it’s not, so yeah there were some benefits that came with that those benefits made us more independent but you’re talking about food stamp benefits, that we didn’t have before so those benefits were good. We have a lot of companies in Puerto Rico but the owners are over here I mean if you own a business and you’re over here, you’re the one that’s making the main money I mean you’re giving jobs to some people, but you’re the one that’s making the profit so it was like that but, I’m saying that because the whole fight that happened with the young lords later was about self-determination of like Puerto Rico. We believed that Puerto Rico should determine their own destiny and it nothing against the United States believes the same thing I mean they fought their war against England so I mean we believed the same thing. We don’t disrespect the American flag we can’t because we want to respect our flag; we want to fly our own. Right now you have to fly both flags, there was a time in the 30’s when Puerto Ricans were made, they were forced to speak only English in school, that’s crazy. Somebody’s not going to go to Germany and tell everybody ok, you got to speak English now (laughing). ROBERTSON: Right JIMENEZ: What I am saying, no more German allowed that’s what they did to Puerto Rico not everybody but the people in charge. We definitely don’t blame the American people, just the people in charge and I grew up over here so but anyways I got off on in a tangent here ROBERTSON: It’s all right JIMENEZ: So we came to Puerto Rico to la Clark, was the neighborhood we called it and then there was another community called la Madison which was right around down town on the other side, on the western part of it but they actually were together except there was an express way that divides or the Page 5 �Kennedy, that divides up the two neighborhoods so basically we lived downtown and we lived near the lake front, basically we lived in that community. But there was two barrios, there was two neighborhoods that were being built at that time, one was la Clark and one was la Madison. Now people from both la Clark and la Madison moved into Lincoln Park or Wicker Park. And that is where my generation grew up, in either wicker park or Lincoln park and so that’s all knew of Puerto Rico again I can’t remember I was only two years old and most of us came when we were young so we didn’t know anything about Puerto Rico but in our neighborhood here in Chicago and so to us that was our Puerto Rico and all of sudden after were there for like 15, 20 years, here comes the bull dozers again and here comes the urban renewal program and they wanted to evict us again, except this time they’re not evicting our parents, they’re evicting us and we grew up here ROBERTSON: Right JIMENEZ: And so were saying we can’t go for this anymore, we have to do something and that’s kind of how the young lords started. We were just hanging out on the corner I mean we didn’t care about anything, we wanted to listen to music, smoke a little weed, drink a little wine, and have a good time and some of us were soldiers, we went to the service and once in a while we got a little mischief. We would cut the hippies hair (Tim and Ashlie laughing) or jump on the sailors. Some of us probably, I remember going to the dances and there was about eight of us with different stoning cars that we got to just go to the party, if wanted a new car, we couldn’t afford it so we just took it. So we weren’t even taken it to, some people would take it to get the hop cats and sell them or whatever. We would just take it to go to the parties. We weren’t the only ones getting into trouble. I mean we had our fights; we won some we lost some. So I mean that’s all we were about. We weren’t political, our parents were sure not political, they came from the farms from the field of Puerto Rico where there were farm workers. They didn’t have any education, we didn’t have any education, most of us dropped out at eighth grade or ninth grade of high school so we definitely didn’t have no education, our parents had no education. My father was on welfare and my mother worked in a transformer place where she got minimum wage almost and then my father had to say that he didn’t live with us so got welfare, first he got unemployment I guess then he got welfare but he did work for about 13 or 14 years for Oscar Meyer it was a meat factory, he worked in a meat packing factory but then they fired him, they moved the company and so he lost his job and he didn’t want to work again he started hanging out at the bar, became a pool shark and that’s how he made his money I guess but then he sold the numbers, that was another way of making money and the neighborhood was to, now its legal, the lottery is legal but at that time there was no lottery ROBERTSON: Okay JIMENEZ: But in Puerto Rico they did have a lottery that was legal and so they just thought it was okay to sell the numbers but it was not legal because there was no taxes being paid ROBERTSON: Right, right JIMENEZ: But today they didn’t distinguish it too much so I wouldn’t say that my father was a gangster, he did belong to a little club like the old hatchets, it was a name that they chose, but they would get into Page 6 �bar fights, bar brawls but it wasn’t really as gang if you compared to gang stuff its nothing like that. And I think he went to jail twice because I went with my mom to bond him out for fights and he was definitely afraid of jail, he didn’t want to go. Not like me I went a lot of times but he, so he was just more of a family person. In fact Jackie glease, the honeymooners was his favorite show ROBERTSON: Yeah, so you would say that one of the biggest draws for Chicago was your own people there JIMENEZ: The draw, you mean for myself? ROBERTSON: Right, well with you and your family even I mean you were saying that there were more job opportunities JIMENEZ: Right and our families were there we were closer to our family versus being in some farm, in a field farm in the fields and stuff like that but yeah so one of the draws with living in Lincoln park was that there was families growing up together and it became a tight knit neighborhood, just like any other neighborhood ROBERTSON: So would you say it helped maintain a sense of your culture? JIMENEZ: Right and maintain the culture, that’s what I’m saying because it maintained our culture and it made, that was my Puerto Rico, that’s what I knew of Puerto Rico. I loved Puerto Rico today but I never, I didn’t live in it that much what I’m saying. My sisters were all born here and they lived there for several years they loved it there. And I loved it there too but I can’t find any work but their husbands were raised there so they’re kind of used to their economy, their culture and I’m not. I was raised here so I’m used to here more. Even though I love Puerto Rico and defend it I had to me my Puerto Rico was Lincoln Park and that neighborhood and that community and then because we did the bad thing and we did the good things. Think of the new immigrants moving there, like pilgrims ROBERTSON: Mmhmmm JIMENEZ: Because they came in there and actually acted like pilgrims cause they came with a religious fervor from Puerto Rico and when they saw that a lot of the older people, the man would get into gangs and start selling drugs they used religion, they used Catholicism to preach when they saw that the youth could not afford to go a catholic school, my mother had her own catechism in her own house, she had an altar in the house but basically, she would have our living room was about 30 chairs, and the kids would come in there and she would, they would have to memorize the book because she wasn’t a good teacher, she never went to school and she only went to, I don’t think she even went to the 1st grade because she was raised in an orphanage but her mother got ill land so she was raised in an orphanage near san Juan until she was like 15 or 16 then she got connected with my father and they got married but she had catechism classes and they would graduate and she worked it out with the local priest and they would go and do it there. She would have catechism classed and they would have to recite word from word yes ma’am god raised on the third day no mam, yes mama. That’s the way they had to answer that was the way she trained them and she was excited when the priest would come and ask them questions because they would graduating at that time and the families were excited, they would Page 7 �go them like a little suit and fine dresses and that and they would go and receive their first communion and I saw that, I was going to catholic school at that time and it was like one of those where your mother is the minister and you don’t want to be connected to the class, you’re always on the sideline. But I appreciated what my mom was doing and I learned her organizing skills and how she had to talk to the parents and stuff like that. And she did that for, she had a few classes that graduated (Jose’s phone starts ringing) I should have turned this off, sorry ROBERTSON: It’s alright; do you need to take that? JIMENEZ: No, (Jose is trying to turn his phone off) and Tim is trying to help him JIMENEZ: Where were we? ROBERTSON: You were just describing your appreciation with what your mom was doing JIMENEZ: Well I need to also say, because I said we had a little altar, she my mother also, in Puerto Rico there is different customs, so even though 99% are catholic, there’s still old customs from the Indians and from the Africans, so you have their religions also a part of the thing. And my mother had, today she is what you call a charismatic Catholic so that means that they pray to the saints and she’s very into, well the Africans have the santaria, which is what we say is more like voodoo but it’s just a religion from Africa but it’s in the music you here songs like changu, and all that so my mother wasn’t into that, she was more into Indian, she said I’m an Indian. But even though she was catholic she doesn’t say it because she would get criticized even with the community. But I know that she believe, she says I believe in the tongues and the holy spirit, which is catholic but I know for her is was little bit more. But I don’t think she understand the whole religion part of it, she’s just like, you go to any Puerto Rican neighborhood and they have what they call botanicas, so you can go in there and buy candles and different things and that a regular store and they make good money because there’s a lot of people that buy that stuff. So m my mother was just kind of picking from that, she’s like one of those people that would pick a candle. Right, so she did believe and that so I wanted to say it, because it is part of our culture I mean it’s not just a religion, its apart of our culture, it’s a part of the fact that Puerto Ricans are Indian, African and European Spanish, so I have my light features because from the European Spanish. But even within our own family for 500 years we’re mix. So there’s also a saying in Puerto Rico that says y tu abuela donde esta? And your grandmother where is she? Meaning that all our grand mothers were from Africa. I mean that’s what they’re trying to day by this saying. Even though they weren’t all, what they mean is that we’re all mix; we cannot be prejudice against anybody, because we’re, we’re all, we’re all mixed people. So we’re mixed for 500 years, so talking about diversity… ROBERTSON: You were ahead of the game? JIMENEZ: We were ahead of the game a little bit, I think. But the problem also—it says that in the United States we don’t get our history. And, and so we’re, we’re not being taught that, although that’s common knowledge among Puerto Ricans that, that went to school in Puerto Rico. So, the Puerto Ricans that grew up here don’t [pause] don’t have that knowledge. We were, what the Young Lords were doing [pause] was to try to teach people about their history and, that’s one of the things that we, we promoted that we still promote. Page 8 �ROBERTSON: Say, I’m kind of curious moving onto that point… what was it like actually organizing and assembling the Young Lords? JIMENEZ: Well, that’s [pause] it wasn’t easy. I mean it’s still not easy today, I mean, ROBERTSON: Certainly. JIMENEZ: You kind of have to keep one step ahead of yourself, even today. [Pause] I mean, part of the reason I’m in Michigan has to, has to do with some of that, too. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: But [pause] I got in, in, I went to jail, I got from the gang we went, we, there were different stages in the gang. We were first starting out; we’re just kind of just drinking and having a good time… ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And then we started organizing ourselves and then we started trying to get a name for ourselves so we go to [pause] to other neighborhoods, to challenge them right in their own neighborhoods. to, to let ‘em know we can kick their butt in their own neighborhood. At that time it wasn’t like today where you just are shooting, but some of us had, some weapons, but just some of us. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: Well we were going to another neighborhood. I remember going with Orlando one day and, and we went, and we used to have to walk around this one neighborhood because The Corps used to hang around there and The Corps was a [pause] was a grouping of a lot of Italian, Irish, Polish gangs, and they all… ROBERTSON: Okay. JIMENEZ: They used to be the Saint Michael’s Drum and Bugle Corps but they [pause] they changed into a gang. They, they, they started The Corps themselves became a gang. so we used to have to, to go to… we had a branch in Old Town it was like ten blocks away from our other branch, so me and Orlando, Orlando was the founder of the gang—Orlando Davila—was the founder of the street gang. I was the founder of I was one of the original founders with him. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: But I was the founder of the political group the Young Lords. So I transformed the gang into, into the Young Lords as a political movement. So anyway, we, we walk, one day we’re walking and we would always have to go around the churches. Orlando said, “what, I got my pistol from my father, we’re gonna walk—me and you are gonna walk right through there. And I’m going…[all laugh a bit] And I’m going to let you; you better protect me because I don’t have nothing. ROBERTSON: Right. Page 9 �JIMENEZ: I had like a little knife and that was it, but, we’re talking about like eighty people that we’re going right… ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: Going through eighty people on the playground, so we’re, we’re walking in there [pause] and, I mean, there was like a big pride in us because I knew he had that, that, that weapon. I knew that he had that, and, and at that time there weren’t that many people carrying guns like they do today. ROBERTSON: Yeah. JIMENEZ: And today that wouldn’t work. [Chuckles] ROBERTSON: Yeah, I bet. JIMENEZ: But so usually they would have bats and sticks and stuff like that; throw rocks, whatever—or, cut you up or something like that. So anyway, we’re walking through the middle and I can see these, these, these guys are, you can hear them. “Whoa, look at these Puerto Ricans here, they think they’re bad. Look, they’re walking through our neighborhood,” that kind of stuff; ROBERTSON: Yeah. JIMENEZ: And I’m just glowing, like I know they’re not gonna... No, but they’re kind of afraid; they don’t know what we got. They don’t know what we got, but finally they kind of surround us and that, and they go, “Whoa, you guys are bad,” and, I don’t know what Orlando told them. He just said something, but, all of a sudden, “We should kick your butt,” and that, something like that. Orlando said, “Well, come on!” and that… [Fumbling over words] when they took out the pistol he started shooting, like in the air, and it just emptied out—the whole playground emptied out. [Sounds of shock/amazement] JIMENEZ: But, I mean after that, [pause] after that we would walk through there; it was like, everything was okay. I mean, we, ‘cause we went to school with some of these people, so the next day I got to the school and then after that there was no more, like we couldn’t walk through there. Now, to, to some people they would say that that’s prejudice that we can’t walk through there, ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: But we were looking at it more like from a gang point, point of view; but you can, today you can kind of look at it and say—well, what Puerto Ricans… ‘Cause we had the same problem at the beach; we couldn’t, Puerto Ricans couldn’t go to the beach, so it wasn’t just the youth, it was the adults. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: We couldn’t go to North Avenue Beach in Chicago, and that was in our neighborhood, so we had to go to Fullerton Beach, and, so the beaches were segregated. Chicago was a, was a segregated town at that time. It’s still somewhat segregated—where you have different, Puerto Ricans in one area; Mexicans in another; Page 10 �ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: Italians in another; Irish in another;, Polish in, in another; so, so there in Lincoln Park it was like that, but, and, and blacks. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: So these three blocks would be Polish. These three blocks German; like that, and we couldn’t, like African Americans couldn’t move north of North Avenue. In Chicago, there’s a street called North Avenue; and you would hear that, I mean, I would hear that as a kid going to the barber shop I heard [pause] because I was light-skinned, they didn’t know I was Puerto Rican [laughs], ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: So I’m sitting there getting my hair cut, I’m just a little kid, and I’m hearing these adults talking about, “Mayor Daley, he’s not gonna let no blacks move past North Avenue. We don’t have to worry about that,” So, this was during the time of Urban Renewal, but I didn’t know that. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: So there, so, so Urban Renewal to us was it was like a master plan for that city for—a fifty year master plan to clean up the lakefront and the downtown area. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And we were just caught up in the middle of that—the Lincoln Park neighborhood and Wicker Park later. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: Because now Wicker Park no longer exists as we knew it then. That was also a Puerto Rican community, and it was wiped off the map. and I’m saying, you’re talking about thirty or forty thousand people to sixty thousand people in a neighborhood. ROBERTSON: They just had to up and relocate. JIMENEZ: Right, I mean they were like sixty thousand people, but let’s say a good thirty percent of that were, were Puerto Rican. That’s a good percentage, and we were all centered in the central part of the area. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: The rest were, were the lakefront that was always the same way. They called it the Gold Coast, so there was no urban renewal there. but in our neighborhood it was completely wiped out and just robbed; it was a land grab. I mean, they took they tra… they bought—they did it— legally, it was legal, a legal land grab. so, [fumbles over words] everything was done legally, if you, if you think that out of, out of a city council with fifty elder men and forty-nine of them are democrats, so if that’s legal to you [all laugh] Page 11 �JIMENEZ: Forty-nine out of fifty are voting one way, with Mayor Daley. So, if that’s le… if that’s called laws, making laws, I don’t know where to… [Laughing] I don’t know where it’s democracy; it’s definitely not the Americas. And they call themselves democrats; that’s the other thing, see. Here, it’s, it was strange for me to come to Michigan because everybody’s Republican, ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And I’m going like, “I can’t tell the difference.” It’s, [all laugh], we’re still in the same boat. But, [pause] but anyway, I got off track again, I, I don’t know maybe we’ve got another question. ROBERTSON: Let’s see… yeah just I mean that process of organizing… JIMENEZ: Oh, organizing; okay, yeah. Okay, so we were in the gang—we’re gang banging, we’re doing all this stuff—I come out of jail, I’m in jail and I start reading, I got put in the hole, ROBERTSON: Okay. JIMENEZ: And they said, we go to jail and, and all the Puerto Ricans hang out together, that’s just common. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And so there was some, some gangs there and they said “Those guys are a gang and they, and they want to attack us,” so they’re telling the guards; and then they’re talking about escaping because this one guy, we were joking and he’s, he’s putting his head through the window. So they say, “If you can put your head through the window, you’re gonna put your whole body,” So he’s, but he’s just joking; we’re not talking about escaping. He’s just, playing games. We’re just passing the time away; ROBERTSON: Yeah. JIMENEZ: And so anyway that night they, they took us all downstairs, strip-searched us, and, took us to the hole; and that was a, a, a city jail so, so it was a, the house of correction? ROBERTSON: Mmh. JIMENEZ: So the most you do there is a year, and but, and I was doing sixty days and everybody else was doing like ten days, or something like that. So I had the most time; I had just come in, and now I’m like, they’re saying that I’m trying to escape so they’re putting me in maximum security, which is the hole, which means I don’t get out of my cell but once a week for a shower, and that’s it, and that’s with a guard. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: So, you’ve got a lot of time to read; there’s not, no, nobody else there but you. I mean, it’s an old Civil War, Civil War cell house, so the catwalk, instead of being steel, it was wooden; and they had, they had big cats to get the rats, ‘cause there were rats, and there were roaches. ROBERTSON: Wow. Page 12 �JIMENEZ: I mean can you imagine going to jail [all laugh] and you gotta deal with roaches in jail. [Laughs] Oh, man; but, and then it was real cramped up cells and stuff like that. So I mean, you had nothing else, you’re spent most of the day in your underwear and, and, and you listen to the radio which is on a loud, those loud speakers like on M.A.S.H. that t.v. program. They had like loud speakers that you would hear the radio all day; and [pause] so you had a lot of time to, to, to, to think there. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And so, I’m coming with my family—my mother being religious and that, and, and she had tried to convince me to become a priest anyways, at one time, before I got into the gang thing. I started trying to reflect and, and I wanted to go to confession—, as a Catholic you want to go to confession— and confess my sins and, and then I was using. I went from the gang to the drugs. That’s what, what you lead to; it goes from the gang to the, to the hard drugs. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And so I said, “I don’t want,” “I don’t want the hard drugs,” I want to get away from that. a little beer and that, that’s fine. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: [Pause] But I don’t, I didn’t want to be involved with the, with the drugs, with the hard drugs. So, I went to confession and then they, I wanted to go to confession and the guard says, “Well, what you’re trying to do is just get out of your cell;” so, “we can’t let… you can’t go to confession.” I said, “What do you…” so I start trying to get legal on him, “You’re trying to,” you’re trying to well, I mean not legal, I just tried to tell him, “All I want to do is go to confession. Can I have the priest come here?” ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: He said, “I don’t know if we can do that.” So I said, “Well, I’m asking,” . So he told me, “Put a note, and we’ll do that;” so that’s what I did, and then all of a sudden the priest came and, —, I it took a little bit because I had, you’re in a p-prison-like environment, [pause] and, you’re gonna go to confession, that’s like drinking [laughing] cookies and milk, what I’m saying? ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: It’s like, “Are you trying to be a Cub Scout in here? You can’t be a Cub Scout. You gotta… you’re not going along with the program.” But anyway I didn’t care; what I’m saying? I was, I was, … it was… when I believe in something that’s the way I, I was ? I, I didn’t care. That’s what I learned from my, from my mother and from her religion and stuff like that and so I said, “I don’t care. We’ll go to confession right here,” and, you feel like an-anybody when they go to confession. You feel pretty good afterwards and, and so I start… so now I’m hearing all this stuff about the Black Panthers, and I’m going to confession and then I hear the Black Panthers are on the radio and they’re taking over a courthouse in Alameda, California and they’re going with guns and everything to take over, and I’m going like, “Wow,” “this is great! This is what we need to do.” [all laugh] So I’m gonna change my life. I’m gonna stop gang banging and I want to become a revolutionary; what I’m saying? I don’t want to, … so then, Page 13 �then at the same time they’re bringing Martin Luther King… is, is, is killed, and so they’re bringing in the people that are riding, they’re bringing them into our cell house. ROBERTSON: Okay. JIMENEZ: So we’re looking at them from the top of, our cells. We’re looking down as they’re being [pause] shaken down, to see if they’ve got that… anything in there. Then they’re being asked questions diagnostic… questions, when they come in. So they’re bringing in riders and all of a sudden they’re also they’re doing raids on, on Mexican undocumented workers. So they’re bringing them in, and now there’s black guards--there’s not that many Spanish guards—but there’s black and white guards mainly. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: But I’m looking at the black guards and they’re pushing the, the Latinos, and even though they’re Mexican or Puerto Rican—but they’re still Latinos, just like me; and so I’m going like, “Why don’t you leave those people alone? You don’t, you don’t,” I’m yelling; we’re yelling—the few Latinos that are up in the jail. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: We’re yelling out, “Why don’t you leave them people alone? They’re not messing with you. They don’t understand what you’re talking about.” So, they would start asking a couple of qu- they would ask, the couple of black guys that were pretty good they would ask us a couple questions so we could help them translate. So then, I asked them, I said, “ what, I’ll translate,” “there’s not a problem. I’ll…” “Oh, you want to get out of your cell again.” I said, “No, no, no, no; I’ll do it from here.” [laughter] So I started yelling the questions and answers, back and forth and, that kind of helped me, also. I was like, I’m, I’m, I’m kind of serving my people or something like that, or in a way. so, so the riders and the Mexican, undocumented workers that were coming through there… and then I’m reading about Martin Luther King. The first book I read, though, was Thomas Merton, and I found out later he, he, he was a Trappist Monk, and I felt like a Trappist Monk [all laugh] in the cell, so he was, like, going through the same kind of stuff. So then, [pause] so I read that first, so that’s why I went to confession. I mean, that made me go to confession, the fact that he was religious and all that. But then I started reading Martin Luther King, ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And then I read Malcom X also. so that was two different philosophies: one was for peace, and one was for by any means necessary. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: [interviewee coughs] Excuse me, and then I’m, I’m hearing about the, the Panthers on, on the radio at the same time, and then... Anyway, I get out, I said, “What I need to do, what we need to do is to, to do the same thing for Puerto Ricans, ; ‘Cause we don’t have nothing like the Panthers. This is what we need to do.” Page 14 �ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: So I came out with that idea, I’m gonna come out and I’m gonna try to ‘cause I was still the leader of the Young Lords at that time. So, I’m gonna try to do something with the Young Lords and do that, because I knew every time you go to jail they, the, the gang kind of breaks up a little bit and… ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: They don’t break up but they don’t, they don’t meet. There’s no meetings in there, … ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: That wasn’t to meet; and so, I came out but I had to deal with other stuff. I had to deal with— [laughing] I didn’t have a job, ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: What I’m saying, and so I, I got into this, program at the Argonne National Laboratory where half of the day I would be a janitor and the other half I would study for my GED. ROBERTSON: Nice. JIMENEZ: So, [pause] that was a riot, too. [laughing] But I mean, that, that, … we used to hide out and everything like that [all laughing] from our work, but we did, but we did… Anyway, they took us on a [pause] on a field trip to the Democratic convention and we saw the hippies getting beaten up; and before that, like I said, we used to cut the hippies’ hair. I mean, we just, just… they were there in Old Town, so they were there with us. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: It… Many of them were our friends, but we would do it just, just as, as a prank. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: And like I said, we fought with the sailors and that so it wasn’t no big thing, but [pause] but anyway, we went to the Democratic convention and now they’re… we’re all former gang members or, or, or we’re still gang member’s but we’re studying for GED. So in there we’re getting along, everybody gets along because we’re all for the same thing. We’re trying to, get our GED. So we go to the Democratic convention and the police are running to get the hippies and they’re beating them up, but they’re beating up reporters, and we’re saying to ourselves, “If they come to us,” everybody’s saying, “Is everybody going to stand for themselves?” and everybody said, “Yeah, we’re ready.” so I mean you could tell that we were, we, we were going to fight. Our thing was not peace. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: We were [laughing] we were gang bangers and we don’t know anything about what’s going on, we just came on, on a trip, a high school trip here. Page 15 �ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: They’re not going to beat us up, so… So anyway, when they came, we just kept walking straight. I remember about five or six of us, and the, and the professor—the teacher—and the police ran around us. They did… they, they could, I mean the way we were dressed, they could tell that we were not part of that, that crowd. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: So it wasn’t that we put fear in them, [laughter] it’s just that these guys are not any part of this. They kind of let us go, but that kind of stuck [pause] seeing people getting beat up, that kind of stuck in my, in my head ‘cause we would get beat up by the police, too. that kind of stuff, and all this kind of stuff that I was reading. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: So, anyway I had, I… On a different day, I met this lady, Pat Devine, and she was with some— two other people from the Concerned Citizens of Lincoln Park, and I’m talking to Benny, who was a Young Lord, and he was in his uniform and he’s proud that he just… he’s on leave from Vietnam, ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And this lady comes in, and I’m looking at the neighborhood since I got out—I was only gone sixty days ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: And I could see the changes ROBERTSON: Wow. JIMENEZ: and this lady, I mean, they would… I mean, one-way streets, two-way streets, or one-way streets, you could see people getting thrown out by the sheriff and, and I’m talking to Benny, my friend, my best friend. He’s a Young Lord and he’s in a uniform and he’s proud. He’s a, a Vietnam veteran and all this stuff, —the Vietnam War because we were the ones who were put in the front lines. our, our people, … and this nice lady is telling him, “You’re killing the, the, the [pause] Vietnamese people,” and all this other stuff. I’m going like… so I go to his defense. To Benny’s defense and I used… I don’t mean any disrespect—I go, “Look, you [laughs] white bitch,” ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: “who the heck do you think you are? You’re kicking us out of our neighborhood, and this man is fighting for our, for our people; and you’re kicking us out of our neighborhood against…”, “You’re a Communist,” and she goes, “I’m proud to be a Communist.” I go, “Oh no! [laughter] This lady’s crazy. This lady’s way out there; this lady’s crazy.” So, … so, anyway she, she hit me hard; harder than another guy would hit me—I mean she knocked me down with the way she, the way she could express herself and stuff like that; Page 16 �ROBERTSON: Okay. JIMENEZ: And, so it made me stop to think, and then, then I was a-already thinking about urban renewal and she says, “, we’re f… we’re… our organization is trying to fight to help people stay here,” . So, I mean, it started making sense to me. You get what I’m saying? So anyway, that night the, the other guys that were trying to rap to her and to her other friend and, and trying to, they were just trying to just rap to her but I was interested more in what she was saying; ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And, anyway, she invited me and Benny and, and everybody else to go to her house. just to relax and stuff like that—have a, have a few beers, stuff like that. So we did that, and we… I remember we were just talking all night, I mean we were sitting there talking and, and, and I’m asking her questions about it and stuff like that; and so she invited me and … me to, to, to come to a meeting. She said, “Well, can you bring any people to come to the urban renewal meeting,” ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And I’m going, “I can bring a thousand people. I’m the leader,” [laughter] that kind of stuff. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: So she said, “Well it’s going to be in about three weeks,” “just, whatever you can come… whatever, as many people as you can get just bring them,” ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: “Because it’s an important meeting about the neighborhood.” it was the Department of Urban Renewal was coming in. So that’s… this is a long story, but it’s… that’s when I started organizing and then I found out that, that to get people to come to a gang fight was a lot easier than to get ‘em to come to a meeting. [all laugh] what I’m saying? I mean, I, I went, I, I… people are supposed to organize like in the houses and stuff like that—well I didn’t know—I organized on street corners and in the bars. ROBERTSON: Okay. JIMENEZ: That’s all I knew. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: The street corners and the bar. So I, I remember going to the bar of, of another gang ‘cause I’m trying to reach out to everybody, ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: All the different gangs, and I remember going into the bar and they go, “Oh, here comes that nut again, Cha Cha,” [all laugh] and, and, and even the bartender didn’t want me in there. ROBERTSON: Wow. Page 17 �JIMENEZ: And I’m talking and I said, “man, they’re kicking us out of our neighborhood,” and, real basic stuff. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: I… “You see these one-way signs,” and all this, real basic stuff. “Oh, you’re a Communist,” and I go, “I’m a Communist? Come on out and tell me that.” [laughter] So I would go out and get beat up [laughs] and then they would buy me a drink and, it went like that. like I said, I got beat up a lot of times and put down and, and and, basically they didn’t want you there. The bartender didn’t want you there, you’re messing with his customers. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: The guys didn’t want to hear, they don’t want to talk about that. they… politics, they don’t want to… and they thought I was crazy and stuff like that. So it was like a, … but I learned that from my mom. I mean, I learned that you had to be, you had to be committed. You had to stay, stay with it; that it takes time to, to organize something. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: I mean, it wasn’t easy. Those kids come into the house, for catechism, wasn’t just they did a lot of stuff; they did the catechism, and then they did, rosaries like because what their goal was to get Spanish mass… ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: In the churches. There was no Spanish mass. ROBERTSON: Okay. JIMENEZ: And, their goal was also to get them… they would have, they finally got some Spanish masses, but then they put—they did the mass in the hall instead of the regular church because it was offensive to the, to the regular parishioners; and there was, there was not enough Puerto Ricans to, to, to… They felt that there was not enough Puerto Ricans, but actually the hall was getting more filled up than the church. [laughing] what I’m saying? ROBERTSON: Right, right. JIMENEZ: but they did a lot of good stuff; and then they worked with the gangs. I mean, the, I mean they, the… It became a community, because when there was a big gang epidemic, when we started fighting and stuff like that, they started organizing dances—weekly, weekly dances. So they were smart; they made money [pause] and they work, they work with their kids. They were, they could see their kids, so I mean… and they could promote, proselytizing, that’s what you call it. they could promote their, their church, also. out of that community, Lincoln Park came the first Puerto Rican parade of Chicago; out of this, this group called, the Knights of St. John, which was equivalent to the Knights of Columbus; ROBERTSON: Okay. Page 18 �JIMENEZ: And the Damas de María, Hijas de María, “Daughters of Mary”, in Spanish… [pause] But out of that they’re organized; my parents became that, and then we did our own organizing as youths, the Young Lords; because we didn’t just… When we, when, when we started to grow as Young Lords we didn’t just organize the Young Lords, we organized all the other youth in the area, ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: All the other youth groups and stuff like that. But yet, the, the organizing part was, … I took you on a whole trip [laughing] to tell you that I was getting beat up every day... [all laugh] that it wasn’t that easy, that, the organizing; and, and, and then we got beat up by the cops later, so that’s, so that’s a different story. I mean, after we get organized we’re thinking that we’re doing good, good things, right. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: ‘Cause we’re, we’re not fighting. We’re refusing to fight any, anybody. we’re not, we’re trying to stay away from drugs; we don’t, we don’t want… we’re opposed to drugs. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: We are for discipline; we want people to give more discipline. we want people to go to school; I mean, we thought we were doing everything the right way, but we begin to get attacked, by the police. for doing the… now they hate us more than when we were in, in a gang. They literally hate us more; I mean, they’re… anybody that’s wearing our button, they’re putting them against the wall and shaking them down, and these are community people who are wearing our buttons. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: They had a car parked twenty-four hours a day in front of our, our, our church; we did take over the church, but it became our headquarters and we had a daycare center there. We had a free breakfast for children program; we had a free health clinic; and we had cultural educational classes that were taught in the church. So, before it was empty. So we did take it over, and then, but right away the next day after we took it over… because the pastor had been working with us, ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: It was the congregation that was opposed to us. We told them it’s not really a take-over, we just want to work together with, with the church for the community; and that pastor was later killed about six months later because it’s a cold case. It hasn’t been, [pause] proven who killed him or why. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: But we know that, during that time he was killed, another pastor was killed, and Fred Hampton from the Panthers were killed. So we knew that it was some kind of pattern going on there at the time but we, but we can’t prove it. I mean we, we know that; and, and out of respect for the family we, we didn’t promote it at that time. we didn’t talk about it that, that, that much. just out of respect for them, but by not talking about them people thought that we had something to do with it; because they used knives and all Puerto Ricans are supposed to carry knives. I mean they, but, it was a, … Page 19 �ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: People that, that, that read about it they could tell that it was something related to passion [fumbling over words] because of the way he was stabbed; he was stabbed seventeen times and his wife nine times. so it was, that was passion that tells you… it had to do with passion. ROBERTSON: Certainly. JIMENEZ: Now, when we took over the church we put Che Guevara as a mural; we put out Lisa Compos, which is another, Puerto Rican—nationalist from Puerto Rico; we put Lolita Lebrón, another Puerto Rican nationalist woman; we put Adelita, a woman from Mexico; and we put Emiliano Zapata on the wall. We put, like I said Che Guevara was on, was on the wall; so that could make somebody in the congregation… because the congregation was mostly Cuban exiles, so that could make Cuban exiles angry. We didn’t think about it because, we were thinking, “We’re Puerto Ricans,” and the community was mainly Puerto Rican; ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: But, I could see why that would make them very angry that they’re first to put a mural of Che Guevara on their church wall. I mean, today I wouldn’t do that, I mean, … ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: But we, we didn’t … We didn’t mean any harm by that, but I mean, … but I’m saying that could be one of the reasons. Now another, another thing was that we protested against the local mafia because he had put a sub-machine gun on a Puerto Rican business owner, because he, the business owner owned a restaurant and couldn’t afford the rent at that time. So the, the, the real estate office, who was, who was also the local mafia guy—and the reason I know he was the local mafia guy was my father. He used to sell the, bring the money for the numbers to him. So I knew, [laughing] so I knew that personally. Yeah, he was the local mafia; but any… but we still picketed in front of his place and, and I went with some, with some people that had a local tabloid newspaper, ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And, and they took pictures while this guy put his sub-machine gun on me. All I did was put my finger in my pocket, I didn’t [ROBERTSON: Wow.] have a weapon. So I put my finger in my pocket because I didn’t know what else to do when he put the sub-machine gun… and he ran into the back office that had a window and started calling the police. The police comes in, he comes out with his submachine gun and the police is there, and they’re frisking me [ROBERTSON: What?!] while this guy’s holding a sub-machine gun, but we’re taking pictures. So we took pictures and we, and we put those on the newspaper tabloid—about twenty pictures all around the front page; ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: And then we, we, we split about twenty thousand copies of them, we spread through the neighborhood; Page 20 �ROBERTSON: Yeah. JIMENEZ: And so, after that we didn’t, we didn’t break his windows, [laughs] but the adults were breaking them. Every Friday night they would break his window. He started with a big picture window and then… little, little, little blocks of windows; but, so it could have been, it could have been them too. I mean, it could have been the local mafia that we had to deal with, because the local mafia was the one pushing real estate with the city. It could have Lee Alderman, because Lee Alderman had an organization called United People to Inform Good-Doers and they were going through our garbage cans and stuff like that trying to find any information that they could to use against us. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: And that they could publicize to the… they thought we were getting funding from the Methodist churches in the suburbs, so they, they publicized a few things in the suburbs, Lee Alderman did. Now, we also broke into Lee Alderman’s press conference and, and exposed them because he had gotten caught with a prostitute in the neighborhood, so we exposed him right in front of the media. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: So he wasn’t too happy with that, either; [laughter] so we were making enemies, I mean is what I’m saying, and, and they, they were, our target was, was the pastor who was allowing us to… Oh, and they were also trying to, … there’s letters at DePaul University where they, they were sending letters to the bishop, trying to get the bishop to kick us out of the church; ROBERTSON: Okay. JIMENEZ: And he was saying no, that he was not, going to kick us out and the bishop was with us. he’s saying, “No, no,” “that’s his ministry and, and, and we’re gonna let him work with the youth. He’s working with the youth, so that’s his ministry.” So, so Lee Alderman and the committee, the uptight United People to Inform Good-Doers was definitely… had a campaign to try and get us out of there; and they were connected with the local mafia and the police and everybody else, so, so I don’t know… but then we also had the fact that we were part of a a rainbow coalition with the Black Panther Party and the Young Patriots, which was, an Appalachian white group that, that was, that we were working together with, and, so they… the Black Panther Party was being investigated by COINTELPRO, the Counter-Intelligence Program. ROBERTSON: Mmhm. JIMENEZ: So anybody that was connected to them—and we definitely were—I mean, I was going to speaking engagements with, Fred Hampton many, many times and many days. We spent a whole day with him because he was helping train, train us also. ROBERTSON: Right. JIMENEZ: We were learning from… so the- we had a lot of enemies at that time. We were in cir- what you call in circles, they were circling… we were the wagon and they were circling us. and we didn’t… and Page 21 �all we were trying to do was just, like to save our community; I mean, that’s all we were trying to do. We were probably saying too many things we didn’t need to say, but, other things, but I mean that was the main reason that, that we started was to save, to save the neighborhood;, save our ‘hood, save our neighborhood… but, [pause] but anyway, that’s how… That was a long one, right? [all laugh] JIMENEZ: I mean we did not understand how at that time I was well liked by a lot of people at that time and I know I should be liked more because I went through a program substance abuse programs and everything to change my negativity right. ROBERTSON: Mhmm JIMENEZ: I should be liked more, but I am hatted more ROBERTSON: Hmm? JIMENEZ: So that was we are saying was a concerted effort. To discredit me and what we were doing to people and that was one of the reasons that I ran for alderman and in nineteen seventy five it was more so that we could stay alive. As a movement and so that I ran in the neighborhood north of Lincoln Park which was lake view uptown because there were no more Puerto Ricans left in Lincoln park and in uptown they were starting to kick the Puerto Ricans out of there as well as like I said we kept moving north and west. So the aldermanic campaign I remember because we had to go underground and I went underground because I got arrested eighteen times in a six week period and for all felonies and so they were it was clear that they were trying to destroy the group in that way so I got a year and asked for a little time to straighten things out with my family and I took off and just went underground that meant that like today I could say that I am underground but because I am not in Chicago I am not in public or anything. But so we did that for like two and a half years which was I would have liked to looking back at it today I would have rather done two and a half years in jail then to be underground for two and a half years because at least in jail you have communication but I could not even communicate with my own family for two and a half years so that that’s why it was more difficult in that way but next time I would just take the jail time but anyway the while I was underground we organized a couple of movements a few more chapters of the young lords like in Los Angeles and San Diego and Hayward and Boston we worked with a group there so we were keeping a little busy while we were underground then what I decided was we needed like a training school for the leadership because I found out that Chicago was kinda falling apart a little bit m and they were starting to put drugs back in to the neighborhood so when I heard a lot of that stuff I said let’s get a group of people and we will rent a farm in Tomah Wisconsin I considered that because no one is there but we rented a farm in Tomah Wisconsin and about twenty three of use lived together like a commune but not really we had structure we would wake up in the morning and every one would have chores it was like a program and then people had to read. Like my mother I was not a teacher so I would tell them to read the book and discuss it I want I didn’t really have a plan you just have to read this book so we read it so read books like Frantz Fanon and books like that and some Lennon books but m we were mainly concerned with what they call the national question so that was the whole question of Puerto Rico, self-determination and how to organize that and in other words it was a two-step process because people were saying that we have to talk about the class struggle the poor vs. the rich and we were saying that we also have to talk about Puerto Rico we have a Page 22 �nation called Puerto Rico so it is ok to be a little nationalistic as long as you are also internationalist as long as it is not racist because we were against nationalism because that was racist but we said its ok to talk about that and be proud of that as long as you are still an internationalist and you respect everyone else and so that was to us the national question so said that before you can talk about class struggle m it is all collectivism or whatever but it’s all the same thing it’s all mixed up anyway but before we could even get to that point, but at that point everyone was talking about the class struggle or organize the workers and stuff like that and I’m going we can’t even get in to the job you want us to organize the job but we can’t even get in the plant so we are going to organize with in the community so that was what we decided that we needed not in the factory but in the community but I am not saying not to organize as an effect but our goal as an organization is to organize the values(27:55) to organize the communities and to look at it geographically to go door to door and that what we learned latter on with the aldermanice campaine and the mayoral campaine of mayor Washington was to go door to door that that was the best form of organizing we had programs but if you go door to door you don’t miss anybody and so our goal then became clear what our job had to be it was to go to each latino balto and try to organize door to door and stuff like that but we were never able to because of funding and other stuff we were never able to accomplish that goal completely, but it did spread and it did spread to other cities like that like creating base areas we called it but that was the kind of stuff that we started at the training school and that we did that for about two years and then from there we started doing target practice because we though that the revelution was going to be the next day and this guy blew his thumb off (Ha-ha) so we had to close down the place we had to get out of there because I was wanted by the law and so every one could have gone to jail but I had to so we moved from there to millwalky and we put out a newspaper and then whent back to Chicago and got appartments and people lived togeather and today when I am doing these interviews today there are still living togeather in the same apartment you go to one apartment house and everone in the building is an organizer that works togeather but they are not all young lords they are in different group but they learned from us because that is what we did so we went back to Chicago and we I actualy was livng a couple of blocks from the police station were I turned myself in laterbut we planed the turning of myself back in, turning my self in. but it is like they are not going to do this for us we have to do it aurselfs so passed out flyers all over the neighborhood and we sent them to peole in the media to make sure that they would be there and stuff like that and then we had about five hundered people when it was like four below zero(25:36) and there was like five hundered people marching when I turned myself in and basecly I wwnt downtown and took a cab and drove up to the police station and the marchers are on this side and I am paying the cab driver and I start to walk in to the crowd and I start shaking hands with every body and the loyers were there and the police grabed me right away but I was able to shack hands with a few people and then because of the layers they let me talk through a loud speaker to the crowed and stuff like that and so that was good I mean it was a good event but the fact that we had five hundered people show up at four below zero was pretty amazing that was pretty good and then right away they took me and I started my year in jail and wial I was doing the year in jail we were planning the alderman campaign and so when I can outit was easy because people know that I had just came out of jail and I am running for alderman(24:35) so I mean that brought news but we did a good campaine we had 39 percent of the vote for the first time and all you need is 51 percent to win and usualy the first time people get like one percent but I mean we did pretty good. And the second time it was not me running but the major and Page 23 �we helped him win the election so it was a different feeling from picket signes to, I think two hours are up, right (Ha-ha) from picket signes we went to a victory we won a majors we won a majors race and it was a different fealing because I could wallk in to city hall and see the major when I want just callhim up and say that I am on my way I did not have anything important to talk to him about it was just to say hello (Ha-ha) but it was a great fealing. I remember that night when we won because see our office was the fullerton office and it was mixed it was divers and latino were atomaticly going to go vote for herald not attomaticly I mean that we had to do our work but we were winning eighty to ninty present for herald Washington major the first African American major and in the purto rican area and in the anglo community in the white community they did not do that well but still with out them getting any vote we would have not have won and so I remember how hapy they were too I mean it was like hay we won like yea we did it. So it was a good fealing I am telling you I i remember my cousin I had submitted his name for the some liberary board and and I walk in to city hall and there was a couple of other people there with me and I see him and I great him an I go hay how are you doing Carmelo and he goes hay cha cha how are you and I says if you cant he says that if you came to see that major he is out of town you will not be able to see him and I’m going like I’m thinking that he is out of town I just talked to him but I did not tell him that so I said ok he said that I have been here a couple of hours and I am going to see the cheaf of staff because they are going to put me on the library board and I am going I know because I put your name (Ha-ha)ha but anyway so I’m going in there and this guy herald safical the security guard he is a cop major safle but he is a progressive cop he was with the he was for the panthers and things like that. And he goes hay cha cha so I say ok and I go in to the back and sure enough halrald Washington in in the back (Ha-ha)ha he was not out of town we was in the backbut I had gone to see him because I had went with some bills to his office and I sayed who is paying for this because I don’t have no money (Haha)so that was pretty pretty amazing times at that time and then he won again the second time but I did not work on that I was in Michigan during the second time but that was a victory for us because what happened is because we were the first group, latino group in the city to indorce him we did not ask for money you see our thing was more poklitical and we did not ask we were conserned about the community we were we vote we worked on his campaine because he rep… in fact it was called neighberhoods vs. downtown so that is why it fit in with what we were in to (20:37) so we were for his campaine and we know he had that he was very progressive person and we wanted anyone to defeat the daily machine so he was against that so so when he won he he organized he we did we and the office of special events for Chicago organized an event in the purto rican neighborhood of humble park and there were a hundered thousand Puerto Ricans in that park I mean wall to wall Puerto Ricans in that park and I was the only one on stage introducing the major at that time and he and he we were able to be able to choose that band that played it was willy colone and when he came to town people would pay like 40 50 dollars to see him and so they were seing him for free so that loded it up plus we did media on the radio and stuff like that that was payed from the budget of the office of special events so we were kind of directing it but they were kinds supling the money and the expertise to quordinate it because he had invited all of the community leaders to sit in a band shell or what ever but I was the only one on stagewith introducing the major but that is that whole speech in in the wikipidia article it’s a hole little two minite speech that I gave. Introducing him cus there that to use represented the victory we had went from a gang or what ever from an…to to becoming the young lords picketing protesting to taking over occupy they use the word occupy to day but we were calling it takeovers then and and our Page 24 �takovers we won we did not leave till our demands were met and and we were so unpredictabale that they wanted to give us the demands so what ever you want you can have (Ha-ha) because they did not know were we were going to come from so there was a few of us running around with guns (Ha-ha) and we are not leaving so I mean but and the families but we would have got killed but the families that were in side wial we took over micormic seminary for example we were there for a whole week the demands were $605,000 for them to invest in to low income housing, $25,000 for the health clinic for two health clinics so that was $50,000 and then another $25,000 to open up a peoples law center. (17:57) because the loyers were helping us negosheate we were there for a whole week we took it over the young lords and the next day and we did not even plan for food for provitions so today they would havewiped us out that is what they do today they some body took over some other place the other day in Chicago and they would not allow any food in. but you see what happened with us the community came and brought food the net day and then we let them come in so the next day we had three hundred and fifty people and and what happened is that when the police were wanting to attack us they decided to bring in the kids not us we did not want the kids to come in side but they said no no we are going to bring the kids so that that way they wont attack they wont come in and then the students were in the front of the building the students were our security in front so it was a seminary it was a complex like this it was a big complex we are talking about depaul university and it is today at that time it was called micormic theological seminary so it was a big complex like this and we took over the administration building a three level three story administration building and we were there we lived in there for a week in fact we won all of the demands and I told everybody that ok we can leave now and they went I am not leaving I have an office and no we got to leave (Ha-ha) we got to leave we did not leave but we had fun doing that they had music they had a lot of descution groups nothing but talk everyone was just talking all day and so every one came close by talking and became close and then we won all of the demands and we thretone to burn down the liberary because they were thretining to come in so we said we are going to go take over the liberary and then we are going to burn it down if we have to burn it down we don’t care that night is when they called us for the meeting “cough excuse me” that night is when they called us for the meeting but about two oclock in the morning and they said what what ever demands you wantwe will sign we will agree to your demands they had a little we had just read your demands and if thoughs are your demands then we will give you all of the demands you ask and I sayed ok so than the next day we were but I remember having press conferenses every day on top (Ha-ha) of the thing they had a little window sill that we would have press conferences out of there is a picture of that some were there is a picture but I have it some were but anyway so that is I don’t remember were we were at there a tangent I guess. ROBERTSON: (Ha-ha) Yea its like your saying coming from that level of street corner talk to political standing. JIMENEZ: How much time do we have left. ROBERTSON: Well we have as much time as we need. JIMENEZ: Ok Page 25 �ROBERTSON: As far as the questions. I was curious, I mean like you were saying, born in Puerto Rico, never really knowing it to much coming hear like you said when you were two years old and just moving around as much as you have like what are essential elements for you to consider some place home? JIMENEZ: Well my home is been Chicago that has been my home but my home is also but it does not exist any more I mean linken Park does not exist anymore I really don’t know when I was fifteen years old I went and stayed for about a year in Puerto Rico and and that was I was put on the plan in handcuffs and sent to Puerto Rico they were trying to deport me because I was the leader of the young lords and I had got some kind of case were we broke in to a house or something at the time and and I was not even good at that but that was something from the gang days and anyway I was still a juvenile and we will either put you hear and I was fourteen or something we will put you in a sharaten and shareten was a juvenile prison until your twenty one like juveniles htat have commited murders or something would go there or dangerous criminals they thought that I was a dangerous criminal or I don’t know I was never the fighter Orlando was the fighter in the group I was more always the organizer but Orlando never wanted to lead so I was the leader of the group. (12:48) but anyway so my mother said that I don’t want my son to go to jail till he was twenty one years old I will send him to Puerto Rico but I was balling I was crying I did not want to go but they took us in a pady wagon from the jail to the airport and at the airport they watched us from up above ant they let me talk to my parents and they walked me to the door and I I was that was when I started crying cuz I could not control myself cuz I did not know were I was going I’m like cheradin I knew were I was going and I will find friends who are there in jail I mean it is a life of jail so people but in Puerto Rico I didn’t know anybody or I thought I didn’t know anybody once I got there my uncle who met me he had come back and forth to Chicago several times so I did know him and other uncles and ants that had come back and fourth because we are like a shudle culture so we travel back and fourth all the time but I did not know that at first so but I went there at first and right away they said gangster from Chicago alcapone (Ha-ha) right away that was what everyone was thinking so but I remember hanging out with the priest because he was the only guy that I could talk to in English and I remember smiling because my grandmother would ask me stuff and I would just smile because I did not know the heck what she was saying and my grandfather woud get mad he would say he knows he knows he is just pretending that kind of thing but he was the backwards guy my father was bad he was wors but he was the one who tought me about the country and stuff like that I would hang out with him and go up to him on the mountain because the farm was a mountain the farm was not flat land it was on a mountain all of Puerto Rico is like that it is all hilly so the farms are all hlly and stuff like that so you have to climb and it is good because you climb to the top and there is fresh airy cool fresh air (10:37) when you go to the bottom it is all hot and but I got to know slowly I even went with one pare of shoes and had to save them for like Sunday so I walked around like what do you call it huckel berry fin is that with out shoes I mean I walked around that is what we did at that time we could not people could not afford shoes and that so they would save there shoes for like Sunday and that but I hung around witht the prist and I remembered I did not get in to any real big truble all though I did steal his hourse (Ha-ha) and his jeep one time because I fell in love with this girl in another bouyo another part of Puerto Rico and I was hanging out with and I was not trying to steel it I was just trying to barrow it (Ha-ha) butthat is what guys do when they are young and in love. So I I took his hourse one day and the jeep and then every one in the hole the thing is that every one goes to church on suday so if you do Page 26 �not go to church on Sunday you have to hide you don’t let anyone know that you are not at church cuz its like a country and its just one church and every body for miles away you can see form all the hils so we would go I remember cause he made me go to confection in front of everybody and that kind of stuff and that but he became like a friend of mine he got me a job in a in a hard wear store a ferreta they call it and I remember I met a guy from New York that was helping me because I would just sit there and stand in the front counter and people would come there and ask me something like a nail or something and I would not know but hten they ask me for something like a fouset and I right away I would have to go to my friend from new york whats this mean calesa what is he saying but I learned Spanish I had to learn Spanish that way and I even learned the song and stuff like that and in Christmas time that’s a big holiday in Puerto Rico the the three kings but it because of the American culture it starts like on crismas eve and then it last till January six which is the day of the three kings and everyone goes house to house and there like trubidors so they like sing and they improvise and so all my uncles and stuff like that they know how to improvise and before they had radio that was the way that they that was there music after they work in the fields all day they would come back and at night time and I learned it from my mom from researching her and at knighting like that my brothers and that we would just hang out on the purch and the vatey the yard ike hear like the yard hear they were not that big but they would there was a clearance because the rest was jungle you are talking about a tropical place so there was a little clearing in the front called the batay and they would sing there music there that was there radio that was how they relaxed at night and stuff like that but today it is only used mainly at Christmas time but before it was used for any holiday if you die you get a batranda they call it if you a birthday you get a bathranda wedding baptism whatever you get a bathranda but now it is just mainly done for Christmas for Christmas time and stuff like that but it is they are really celebrating the the three kings verses santa clouse and in fact they have an improvisation were one guy( 6:52) would say well I believe in Santa clause and the other would say no I am Puerto Rican I believe in the Three Kings but they are both Puerto Ricans but because we believe in both because of the influences but that type of music my uncles that I grew up with hear even though I did not grow up in Puerto Rico I grew up with that kind of music here for Christmas we would get together the family and we would sing thoughs songs and then and believe me I have some uncles that are pretty good at improvising and they would I remember one time we went to this house one of our ants house and they had just finished painting the house I mean you could smell the paint and so they come to the door and they start with whatever and they would start singing and they would say what a beautiful house it has such nice furniture and stuff like that and the walls must have been painted by the brush of pecaso (Ha-ha) so then it so then everyone had to rhyme with that at the end they would be they would sing a song and the last vers was it was done with the brush of Picasso so I mean they that was how it works that music that kind of music but it was great music I mean its also n the web there is a bunch of websites and stuff on there on the YouTube and stuff like that but yea we grew up with so I learned a little bit about the culture and I came back and I remember the young lords sweter cause I came back before around the year o yea I came back around the year that my father comes and the first thing he does is that the tetarus the tetarus are the riffraff’s of the neighborhood and I was one of them and he was one of them everyone from there in that section growing up became one of them so its like a gang but it’s a community gang so everyone knows them nobody worried about them (Ha-ha) but they are always stealing the eggs or something but no one pays attention to them they all talk and they all scape goat them like they scape goat gangs here but they Page 27 �scape goat them but they are all kids so they cant really hate them and every single one of them would snake out there so there really all really part all the men are apart of the thing (Ha-ha) ROBERTSON: (Ha-ha) JIMENEZ: And they would hang out in front of the store and look at the women and look at every one but anyway I remember but they would do serves to because my because the people that would come and visiting they would take there suit case and carry them to make them feel important for a tip and I remember my father he is over here coming to pick me up(3:57) and to visit and he hadn’t visited me all year but here he is coming to visit me but at least he’s I’m happy because he is going to take me back to Chicago so then I remember right away the titas they would carry his suit case and yea no problem and he is showing off and I am going I don’t know pops you got to slow down on the money because he starts buying everyone drinks and you got to slow down the money and I’m looking at his pants pocket like he is half way drunk he’s got his pants on and there is food stamps so the next day I tell him what are you doing showing off and you got food stamps (Ha-ha) so I said and he did not even have a job at that time my mother was the one that was working and he was getting well fair so that was the vasod that Puerto Ricans hear that was a contradiction that I was seeing how our people were acting and how it was not real how our people were playing the lottery but telling me that I cant do certain things that are not legal I said you’re not legal you are selling the numbers and what I am saying you’re your selling the numbers you’re playing the Spanish bingo which is not legal now I don’t know why that shouldn’t be legal but because they play it at the churches they play bingo at the churches so I mean that is another contradiction right but the Spanish bingo was illegal I don’t know why I mean they just they just did it for a quarter or a dime or whatever not a big thing but there were so many contradictions that you see and stuff like that then you go to school and then they are teaching you one thing and how even coming here to grand valley so and one class were they show us pictures and they say what does this person look like and everyone goes all right they had a picture of a hippy and they got a migrant worker and something like that and they go well he is a losser and this is in one of our classes and I’m going like I did not say nothing but I’m thinking to myself that guy looks like my dad how are you going to call my dad a losser he is not a loser I mean he did not have any money but he was a good parent I mean he what I am saying I mean ROBERTSON: Yea they were generalizing JIMENEZ: Yea he was a little macho and stuff like that but then(1:27) my mom had a little thing for the macho (Ha-ha) she says that a macho is a guy who can raise a family (Ha-ha) be a man he’s not he is not a macho he is not a man when he would get smart she would put him down ROBERTSON: (Ha-ha) JIMENEZ: I mean it was a part of the culture thing because they also labeled macho to to mean for Spanish people and it is in all cultures and stuff like that so he was a little macho by culture he thought he was the big shot but he did not works she would put him down like I am the bread winner you don’t work you are on well fair (Ha-ha) so I mean there were so many contradictions and and that came in to play when we got in to the young lords and stuff like that and but we got in to the young lords we like I Page 28 �said we were learning from the panthers and stuff like that and we needed the whole question of selfdetermination and the whole the whole the main reason that we started was the displacement of our community we were being kicked out but then we related that to is this thing going out are we recording? ROBERTSON: I am kind of queries yea JIMENEZ: Oh ok actually the other stuff you can probable get out of the Wikipedia thing (Ha-ha) I gave you stuff that is not on there END OF INTERVIEW Page 29 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1a554612e6ea23035344655137db3604.mp3 fa9084f027e31f5aac64e45563d48a7f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Jimenez_Jose Title A name given to the resource Jose Jimenez audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jimenez, Jose Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Robertson, Timothy Hood, Ashlie Perez, Angelica Description An account of the resource Jose Jimenez was born in Caguas, Puerto Rico and lived in Chicago. He discusses his experiences as the leader of the Young Lords and an activist for Latin Americans. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-24 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2e9a07b39a329f3df5b77542164950cd.pdf eef6390183fd8d95441cb33ba8580f0e PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Fabiola Jimenez Interviewers: Lucas Mosher, Kelsie Overhuel, Kyle Richard and Karly Stanislovaitis Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/14/2012 Biography and Description Fabiola Jimenez, a Colombian woman who has been living in East Michigan since 1994. She discusses how she feels as though she was never discriminated against because of her race. Transcript MOSHER: This is Lucas Mosher, Kyle Richard, Kelsie Overhuel, and Karly Stanslovaitis. We are at Mackinac hall, on the grand valley state university Allendale campus, and it is February 24th at 4:30 pm. We are interviewing Fabiola Jimenez, a Colombian woman from East Michigan. So, Tell us your story. Let’s start from when you moved from Colombia to Texas. JIMENEZ: Yes, I came to the United States in 1971, and I was 12 years old. My parents sent me here to live with my uncle and aunt, they stayed back home. And I went to school, to middle school, I started the 7th grade. I did not go to the special school where there was bilingual education, I went to the regular school in a separate school district, where there were no Hispanic children there, but there were cousins, that live in that neighborhood. And so when I went to that school, they were pretty much the few people who spoke Spanish were my cousins, but they were all obviously in other classes. I took special classes, I guess, with the counselor, who taught me words in English from flash cards, but I also attended regular classes with the other children in science, and math. Math was taught in a progressive mode, where you worked on worksheets, and you advanced at your own pace, it wasn’t like a classroom lead math class, unless there happened to be a group of kids working on the same subject. Through that method, I was able to advance quickly through algebra, so I moved on to take algebra in the 8th grade. By the time I went to the 9th grade, I was ready for geometry, and that didn’t seem to be an obstacle that I didn’t speak English that well. I feel that having to be immersed along with the other English speaking children, and not having a bilingual education helped me learn English very fast. And so I didn’t need special bilingual education classes to be able to catch up, or move a long with the other 8th graders and high school. So that’s how I finished high school in Texas. I got married in ’81, and we moved to Michigan in ’94. Lucas was a year old. And at that time, I was already a nurse, I had gone back to school and taken a nursing degree, a bachelors in nursing, and I worked in nursing all my life. And I feel that it has never been an obstacle to have been Hispanic. I have never felt discriminated upon by my employer because of my background. I have always obtained a job with my nursing credentials. Page 1 �RICHARD: When you had first moved to Texas, did you find it difficult to learn English at first, or did you catch on quickly? JIMENEZ: I feel that I caught on rather quickly. I had help, I would bring my homework home, and of course my uncle and aunt would help me with understanding what they wanted me to learn. The Spanish teacher at school would translate the homework for me, and so I went home with some idea of what I needed to do. I in particular remember my English teacher giving me almost special attention with flash cards, and film strips, which I’m sure you don’t know what those are, but they were special films that I could progress at my own pace that would show me words and pronunciations, and would tell me little stories to help me read. I feel that it was maybe special to me, because I was one of the few kids that did not speak English along with the other people. But when my uncle chose which middle school to send me to, he didn’t send me to the neighborhood school where I went, which was predominantly Hispanic, he wanted me to learn English right away, and so he sent me to the school where there were fewer Spanish speaking kids, so I feel that I quickly made friends that spoke English, and who helped me along. In particular, a funny story that I think that sticks in my mind is at the cafeteria. You know the little milk cartons? They showed me how to open the milk carton; because of course I did not know what “push up” meant. The combination where you open it like this (gestures) and you push it up, so they showed me, that’s how you open a milk carton. Well it only took once for me to learn the milk carton, but after that I knew what “push up” was. And so I had very kind people everywhere I’ve been, in the states. With all the different communities and people I have found them to be generous towards me, and they have taught me lots of things. I’ve never felt that they would withhold knowledge or information or acceptance. So I have to say that I don’t feel that I have been discriminated upon during my time here. MOSHER: At what point in Columbia did your family decide to send you to Texas? JIMENEZ: When you’re growing up in a 3rd world country, you don’t have the opportunity to go to school, mostly for financial reasons, because school is not free. Especially your elementary school, and your high school, and college is very expensive. In the states you are guaranteed that you’ll go through high school, and your parents don’t have to pay for your school, they pay from taxes, and yet you’re guaranteed that you’re going to be provided the education that you need, and if you’re smart enough, and dedicated enough, you’ll be able to go to college if your parents have the money, they’ll be able to pay for college for you, or you can get school loans and help from the government for whatever circumstances. My parents felt that I would have better opportunities here, to go to school, and advance further. My uncle and aunt lived here, and they did not have any children, so they asked if they would be allowed to bring me with them, and so they were my guardians, my uncle and aunt, and they lived in Texas. So I feel sometimes that maybe my parents; I used to think that they didn’t love me, or they abandoned me, or whatever, but you pretty quickly grow up from those thoughts when you realize of all the riches and wealth, that we live here in the United States, You know what I mean? There’s no war, there’s jobs, there’s healthcare, there’s the opportunity to work, to go to school, and you can say what you want and go do it. While in a 3rd world country, a developing country, you don’t have those opportunities, you don’t. If your parents have money, and you are smart, and you work hard, you might be able to maintain that level, but it doesn’t come easily for you independently to do it. You sometimes Page 2 �have to know somebody, to give you the favor of having a job. You got the job because you know that person. Or they are your friends. There’s a lot of… It’s who you know that gives you the job. Not because you got it because you saw an offering in the newspaper, and you applied, and they go for the best candidate. It doesn’t happen that way. And to get into school, is tough competition, because there are limited resources. Here, if you didn’t get into a 4 year college, well you can go to a 2 year college, and maybe bring up your grades so that next year you can go to a 4 year college. And you can go to college all your life. Here I am, as old as I am, and I was able to go back to school, and right now I’m in school to get my masters. In south America, if you don’t go to school when you’re young, weather you had the skills, the knowledge, and the money, to pay for school, in your later years, you probably won’t have the opportunity to go back to school. If you don’t have that opportunity when you are young, and take advantage of it, it’s probably gone for you, the opportunity to go back to school. STANISLOVAITIS: You mentioned that you had to pay for school, unlike you do here, before you go to college, so are you aware of how much that was? Or how much it would have been? JIMENEZ: Well it depends, because there are private schools, like kids that go to private schools here in the states, and they are very expensive. And there are also other schools, like the Montessori schools have a different fee, and pretty much it’s what your parents are willing to pay. There are public schools, but there’s a lot of kids in those schools that they probably don’t have the best resources to provide the best education. So if you can go to a catholic school, where the nuns will teach you, you’re probably considered very well educated, by having been given the best opportunity to succeed. MOSHER: What point growing up did your opinion of your parents sending you to America change from resentment to sadness, to like, “oh, thanks for sending me.”? JIMENEZ: When I went back home after high school, I went for a couple of years, and I realized that what I had learned in the states was applicable in south America, but it wasn’t what I wanted, because for a woman in a 3rd world country, when she becomes of marriage age, it is expected of her to marry and have kids. And I didn’t think I was ready. To me, I still had school to go to. Because I wanted to go to college, and I probably couldn’t have gone to college down there. So at the time I realized what they really wanted for me was to have a better lifestyle, more opportunity that other people don’t have. STANISLOVAITIS: Did they ever talk to you about that, or was it just something that you came to realize on your own? JIMENEZ: A little bit of both. We talked about it, especially after you grow up and you realize that your sisters’ lives are not that much better, and that they probably would have been better, or different if they had had the opportunities that we as women have here. That other girls don’t have in a 3rd world country. We can make the decision not just of career, but weather we want to marry or not, weather we want to have children or not. In other countries, you are told what you’re going to be doing. (Laughs) Over here, we don’t, we can do many things, when we want. We can decide even who to marry, we don’t have to wait for our parents to make the match, or for a man to come asking, we go look for one. It is just different culturally, and expectations for women are different. STANISLOVAITIS: How many sisters do you have? Page 3 �JIMENEZ: I have lots of sisters, one of them had 3 kids, and another younger sister than me has 2 children. But they have also travelled abroad, for better opportunities. I have a sister that lives in London, and of course she left Colombia, because of jobs, the economic situation is better for jobs and financially. We don’t have that many resources that everybody can be guaranteed a job. RICHARD: So when you finally decided that you were going to move to Michigan, what played into your decision to move from Texas to a place like Michigan? JIMENEZ: That was marriage. School, for my husband, dictated that we would move to Michigan, for job reasons. At that time I already had my nursing degree, and it was very easy for me to get a job almost through Internet and the mail, through a travelling nurse agency. I came to William Beaumont Hospital in Royal Oak, as a travelling nurse, until we settled in Michigan, and figured out where we wanted to look for a house. When we settled in Milford, Michigan, then it was easier for me to see what hospitals were in the area, and I have worked in the area ever since we moved here. And it’s going to be 19 years, 18 years for sure. So it wasn’t like my decision, it was just like a family situational thing, that it was time to move for job reasons, and so we did. MOSHER: Would Michigan have been your first choice if you had just and option to go anywhere? JIMENEZ: Um, you know up to the time we moved to Michigan we had the luxury, I guess, to travel throughout the United States with being, you know, we’ve been in many states and every states has special situations that I don’t think I would have been unhappy practically anywhere. You know what I mean? I think that I would have found contentment, or satisfaction wherever I lived as long as it was in the United States. You know what I mean? It just doesn’t matter, I mean the highway system makes sense, we speak a common language, you know? We expect certain things so I don’t think I would have preferred living in California or Florida or move back to Texas. Now I do have to admit that it took me a while to accept living in Michigan. Right. Because you have a certain vision of things that you want your life to be and it didn’t seem that at the beginning that it was going the way I wanted, I expected it. Ok? Because we all have expectations. But after a while you realize it’s not bad at all. We have a job, we have a house, we’re healthy. Lucas is going to school. You know and that kind of thing. You kinda settle into the acceptance mode. That this is okay and now the weather doesn’t bother me. It was like yay snow! It was time to get some snow. So it will be gone here, it’s gone actually and the tulips are going to bloom soon so…I like it, I appreciate it now. I appreciate the fall and the summer, the apples and the cherries. All those things I appreciate them more now. But it takes time for me to I guess mature and settle down in the environment that you live. MOSHER: So I guess it’s safe to say that you wouldn’t choose to live in any area other than the United States? JIMENEZ: Oh absolutely, Yeah, cause we’ve lived, I have had the opportunity to live in a third world country and when we were younger we had the opportunity to travel to Europe and live in Europe for nine months and it was not a good experience. There I felt discriminated. MOSHER: Can you describe some of those instances of discrimination? Page 4 �JIMENEZ: Overseas? Yes. Um, we lived in Belgium and they are a French speaking country and we lived in the French speaking area of Belgium and we would go to the bakery and I would want a loaf of bread and of course my French is not very good and I couldn’t make myself understood so I would notice they would serve the customer who had walked in the door behind me first before they would attend to me. So I assumed it was loyalty to the customer, that’s a regular well we had just gotten there. But no it seemed to be a persistent pattern that I had to wait for the girl in the back to come and help me. Not necessarily in English either. While here I feel that, in America if you go to the Japanese store or the Korean store you can walk in and pick whatever you want. You got money and you are going to spend it in my store so yay come in. Exactly? No they are not going to discriminate against you; you’re coming to give the business so I felt somewhat discriminated. MOSHER: Do you feel that that was in part to your Columbian upbringing or your language barriers? JIMENEZ: I think it was in part language barrier and a little bit signaphobia. MOSHER: So they just didn’t like outsiders? JIMENEZ: They just didn’t like outsiders because I think they felt that there were quite an influx of foreign students into the community that we were living in. STANISLOVAITIS: Do you in general people there were maybe more hostile or maybe not as accepting as people in America? JIMENEZ: Yes, Yes I feel that they were not accepting and I feel that they were annoyed that we were butchering their French roots and not speaking properly. MOSHER: This is kinda funny because earlier in class we watched a video called “Black Boy” and it’s about Richard Wright, the author and in that video he was talking about how he moved to France and actually really liked it because he didn’t feel discriminated against there. So it was kinda funny hearing you saying that you felt discriminated there and he saying he actually enjoying it more. JIMENEZ: I don’t know people have different experiences and different perceptions. I know personally that I wouldn’t want to live in Europe. For sure, I don’t want to live in Europe. I like my car, I like my mobility, I’m comfortable anywhere but, so I don’t know. We all have different perceptions so I would not move overseas. I don’t even want to travel overseas. I’ve been there so I don’t want to go. I mean I don’t want to discourage you from going. I mean Paris is beautiful, London is beautiful and it’s definitely an experience to behold, to be involved in it but I wouldn’t want to go. Brush that old city in Belgium is beautiful and I appreciate their history but I don’t want to live there. STANISLOVAITIS: Did you say that you valued having the experience knowing that that wasn’t what you wanted and did it make you appreciate being an American even more? JIMENEZ: Absolutely, absolutely because I can see what influences have made America what it is now. So yes, I appreciate it very much. I like it here. I love it here. I don’t want to go anywhere. So but no you as young people I encourage you to travel and see the world and experience it and formulate your own Page 5 �opinion; don’t let anybody discourage you from going to Mexico. Mexico is beautiful. Columbia is beautiful. They have their things to offer, experiences to offer. STANISLOVAITIS: I feel like in America we are a little bit spoiled and we think that everyone has what we have, but they don’t. JIMENEZ: Yeah, they don’t have it and sometimes I feel that young people are like ingrates. They are not thankful for the things that they have and they don’t appreciate it. So yeah do go, go and see how the rest of the world lives and you’ll soon realize that you are very unique in your own self. Just because you are in America because it makes you who you are and you are very unique and they’re the ones that are “weird”. I didn’t say that. No but do travel if you get the opportunity to go on an exchange program or go for the summer somewhere. Do go, absolutely. Don’t be afraid of it. RICHARD: Earlier you had mentioned that you were a nurse; do you think you can tell us a little bit about your nursing career and how you got into nursing? JIMENEZ: Absolutely, it’s a great question. The thought of nursing was put into me by a teacher I met in High School. She taught a class called Health Education and because I was a foreign student, Health Occupations Education it was the class, and because I was a foreign student I was not able to work and have a job and get paid cause I did not have a Social Security number. A little card with social security number, I had a student visa. So my job was to be her assistant. She gave me the job to be her assistant and I could take both classes, the first period and the second period and for work I would be her assistant. Because the kids were able to work in doctors’ offices, dentals, at the hospital, clinic that kind of thing but I couldn’t cause I didn’t have the proper documentation I guess for work permit. So she guided me and told me that I should consider being a nurse and influenced me a lot in making that my career so I always knew that that’s what I wanted to do or that’s what I should do. And to tell you the truth I never imagined myself not being a nurse either, from her influences, and so that’s what I’m did. I was not able to go to school right away after finishing high school but once I was able to return to the United States I started taking classes at the community college, one class at a time, two classes at a time because I had to work and pay for school at the same time. My parents did not have the financial resources to say yeah go to Grand Valley, live in the dorm and we’ll pay your tuition. It wasn’t that way, I had to pay for myself. And so I could only work a little bit and take a class here and there. Once I got married it afforded me a little bit of financial freedom because of my husband’s job and income and I was able then to pay for school and go full time and so I got my bachelors in science and nursing and I worked as a critical care nurse for eighteen years. And I am now going back to school to get my masters and I hope to get my nurse practitioner’s degree with an education certificate by 2014, so I hope to be done soon. As in soon, in two years’ time goes by fast. So I hope that I’ll be able to accomplish that. But yeah, I was influenced by a lady that I call mother, I call her mother. Her name was Evelyn and she influenced me to go stay in a health career path. So I’ve been a nurse all this time. Never a day unemployed for sure. I always had a job. MOSHER: Before you met her what were your ideas of what to do in life? Page 6 �JIMENEZ: What to do? I probably didn’t have any ideas. Just winging it. Yeah, I was probably was just winging it. You go to school and you study and what not but I had taken a Child Development class and through that class we had to have practicum hours and I went to an elementary school, a kindergarten and pre-kinder and I was the teacher assistant with the kids and that seemed like fun so I thought maybe I want to be a teacher but because this health occupations Education was also an elective class that you could sign up for during High School. I did that and in that would discuss what a dentist does, what a doctor does, nurses, pathology, lab tech and all the different careers in the health care and so I knew that one of those would be fine for me. That I would like it, I enjoyed the Anatomy Physiology component of the class. Talking about diseases and stuff like that so I think I would’ve chosen something in medicine but nursing seemed acceptable. So that’s what I’ve done all this time. MOSHER: Earlier off the record we talked about some people not understanding your accent over the phone… JIMENEZ: Mhm, I have to do some phone interviews for the patients are coming for procedures and stuff and give them instructions prior to their procedures and at times I have to speak to people and it hasn’t been often and occasionally I’ll bump into someone who is less patient and maybe my accent comes a lot stronger or louder over the phone and they say I have a hard time understanding you. I think it’s your accent or something and I say well I’ll have someone else call you, no problem there. It’s kinda like did you not understand me or were you just not willing to talk to me? But what can you do? STANISLOVAITIS: I know if you would’ve you decided you still wanted to live in Columbia and still wanted to do in nursing do you feel that since you would’ve not really had that opportunity to get the education that the quality of care that you would’ve given would be lower? JIMENEZ: Since I was in South America when I was little I did not even consider even studying nursing. But I did do, I took a certificate as a bilingual secretary and I started working as a bilingual secretary because I had learned English in high school so that gave me a leg up instead into perhaps a business degree or a business career in secretarial at work or maybe a hotel, tourism or something I probably would’ve done that because of my bilingual ability. So I wouldn’t have considered nursing but if I had considered nursing the quality would be according to their resources. And I know that many people in South America they do have access to medication but they are not free. Is that like when you go to the public health department? Have you ever been to the public health department? In South America you have to pay for your…for everything, when you come to the hospital here women give you a bucket with tooth brush tooth paste soap a towel…right, a bucket to puck in if you need to…right. When you go to the hospital in South America you better bring those things with you or have someone bring them for you including the sheets. And if preferably bring someone to stay with you to help you with your stay in the hospital because there are few health care people who are skilled to take care of patents there’s fewer medications right. And there is fewer resources. So it’s not as available as it is here. So I don’t think that if I had stayed in South America in Columbia that I would be a nurse right now. More than likely not. And probably…I would have had more than one child. (Laughs) I would probably have twenty of them. (Laughs) I don’t know what the deal is but it would have been my choice definitely it be only Page 7 �what I wanted. You know what I mean? My life would have been a little bit different. In a more male dominated environment. STANISLOVAITIS: You mentioned that your sisters, they still live in Columbia so like do you feel like they because of all of the opportunities that you have gotten in America. Do you feel like they have any desire to have the same opportunities? JIMENEZ: Mhmm well yeah I am sure they have. I mean they’re not lacking. I mean they have a nice house, a nice home they have families and everything. But like what I was telling you we all settle in to what our fortune is and you accept it. You know what I mean? So I think they have been content, you know my oldest sister you know she has her husband, her kids, they’re in their thirties their grown. You know, she’s a grandma. You know I am sure she loves her grand children and stuff. You just kind of settle in to you lifestyle, and make the best of it. You know? And make the best opportunity that you have, she had a good job and her husband had a good job and it provided for their families. You know? They took advantage of the opportunity that was offered to them at the time, but I don’t think that they had the same choices I had. *Pause* JIMENEZ: So I encourage you to travel overseas or even in the United States. I encourage you to stay in school and if your parents are paying for it take all that you can. (Laughs) And take advantage of it because once you start paying for it yourself it is hard, it is hard to part with that money that you are paying for by yourself. And it is difficult to work and go to school at the same time, it’s hard I mean I am sure you have friends who work and go to school at the same time or who would like to be at Grand Valley but they have to go to the community college because they can’t afford it or didn’t get student loans. Or if they got the student loans [they are] already in debt to pay for the student loans. You know what I mean? If you have a scholarship definitely take advantage of it. Stay in School. You know prepare yourself because knowledge is something that nobody and take away from you. I mean that goes where you where ever you go, it will follow you. You know? And you never know when you are going to us it; you never know when it will become valuable for you. So…the opportunity presented itself for me to go back to school right now so I want to go I want to do it so I always wanted to get my masters. I am working on my masters right now. Very busy. The house isn’t clean, the kitchen isn’t washed the dishes aren’t washed, but Lucas is not home so it can stay that way. You know so I like it though I’m happy…I’m happy to be going to school now. It will be over April 15th so…just keep my calendar of how many more days. I know you do too right? (Laughs) You know, so stay in school and travel if you can now that your young, and you can see the world. RICHARD: Could you tell us a bit about because you said you graduated high school and you went back to Columbia JIMENEZ: I went back to Columbia for two…two years maybe RICHARD: Could you tell us what it was like when you finally came back to the United States? Page 8 �JIMENEZ: Oh, it was wonderful. When I came back to the United States I lived with my brother who was also living in Texas and after a couple of months I didn’t like living in his house because I needed to go to school and what not so I called the teacher I told you about and told her I needed a place to stay and she allowed me in her house. She was single, no children elderly obviously she was my high school teacher. And so I lived in the house with her. And so while I worked and continued to go to the community college I lived with her for a couple of years. And than shortly after that I got married. And I have been married ever since. And that changed you know my life quite differently it became a different dynamic. Where I still can go to school full time but I was able to go to school part time and work and start you know the next step. You get married have children except the child didn’t come until thirteen years later you know. (Laughs) It just happened that way but it was my choice it was a decision for me to make you know what I mean it wasn’t my parent’s decision to make. So… STANISLOVAITIS: I sound like you have always sort of valued being independent and to have. JIMENEZ: Ahh your very smart, you are so smart. Yes and that is something that this this is funny. You’re going to make me laugh because yes a thing a child would experience. I was raised. most Hispanics are catholic. And for my elementary school I did go to a Catholic school. I was raised by the Catholic Church in school. But when it came to Sundays my grandfather would take me to a Presbyterian church. Which is a protestant faith. So during the weekend…during the week I was catholic but on the weekend I was protestant. Right because I was going to the catholic school it came the time where the girls had to do their first communion. Who any kind of Catholics? Are you Catholic? No, Okay but you know what a first communion is they have the ceremony and it’s like an induction in to somewhat older girlhood or adulthood almost. So I did my first communion and I did that without my parents consent. Because as far as I was concerned they could go to hell but I not. So I did my first communion and how my parents found out I found me a dress, the Vail, the shoes and somebody to take me up there to do my first communion, because that is what we were learning in school. It is time to do your first communion and this is why it is important to do it and dedicate your life you know say that you know are catholic. Now profess your faith. Yeah I think I am I’m not going to hell. So I did my first communion and how my parents found out was because the photographer brought pictures to the house to see if they wanted to buy the pictures of the beautiful girl doing her first communion. So yes I have been very independent so that’s an example right there. The other example I can give you about independence I can give you about independence is my…piercing of your ears. You know some Hispanic countries they do believe for children to have their ears pierced if they are girls the day they are born. You know? Mom already has earrings in the girls ears, my mom didn’t do that to me she wanted me to wait until you know I was fourteen or fifteen to get my ears pierced. No I didn’t wait I was probably seven or so my friend was getting her ears pierced by her grandmother and I went and had my ears pierced without my mothers consent. So yes you are very…very observant. Very smart. But yes I have been very independent sometimes gets me in trouble too. So yes I have been very independent in doing my own thing and that’s something you don’t…a luxury almost that most girls don’t have in third world countries to choose you know, what classes they are going to take next semester. You know someone is always telling you what to do whether it is your parents or your husband or somebody else. Yeah Page 9 �MOSHER: What were your parent’s reactions to you going off and doing those things with out their consent? JIMENEZ: Well (Laughs) my mom bought the pictures so whatcha’ going to do you know. (Laughs) I have a couple of them. She could not afford all of them but she did buy a couple of pictures and the other pictures I remember the man being upset when my mom told him that she couldn’t buy all the pictures and he tossed them in the street. You know she only bought two of them you know what I mean. I have…I have…I have those pictures. And for my earrings I had to hear the lecture I told you so, I told you so, I told you so, because they got infected. And so I had to do that, washing with soup and water and put alcohol in that little thread in there so that … MOSHER: to floss the little thing JIMENEZ: Yeah yeah to keep the hole open. Yeah you know if I hadn’t done that it would have just sealed back up but of course it got infected because I am sure the old lady that poked my ear probably didn’t disinfect the needle. It’s probably old and dirty. You know she did my friends ears and than she did my ears. So it’s like oh my gosh. So totally not clean technique, she probably didn’t even wash her hands you know. But my mom was very prompt to remind me “I told you so”. But what not they healed I got earrings (Laughs) So but anyway besides being annoyed and upset I think that she was also supportive you know you can only control your children so much that’s the other thing as a parent I have learned now. I can only offer my children the opportunity and than they have to make their own decisions as to what they are going to do with their lives. So that’s it. MOSHER: On a different not I know you met your husband Mark in high school, how did you do the two years when you were in Columbia after high school? JIMENEZ: Oh very good question. …letters. Mark would send me letters. Well Mark didn’t right me…I don’t know maybe six months almost a year until he sent me the first letter in high school. And I think it was because he bumped in to my cousin or something so he …got my address from one of them or I don’t remember what happened but I started getting letters in the mail and because the mail was so slow many times I would get two, three letters at a time. And I would try to send him a letter back. And I have a stack of letters and so I started telling him to please number the letters that way I would know that there was another letter coming. Because sometimes I think he spent his time in class writing the letter to me rather than studying. Because many times it would be written in the notebook and on notebook paper and than I feel that he would just finish fold it up put in an envelope and put it in the mail. If he was not finished with the letter he would continue on another page, and so he would send that one the next day and the mail…one would not catch up with the other and they would arrive out of order. So he started numbering the letters. And you know I would try to keep them in order. So I have a little stack of letters that Mark sent from the states, cards and that kind of thing. And the calling of the phone was expensive. We didn’t have Skype there was no email no instant messaging. You know none of those things that we take for granted now. I mean right now I could get on the internet with Skype connection and call my sister you know and see her you know it’s kinda cool. We didn’t have that and you know the phone it was expensive. And he had to tell me in a letter “ I’m going to try to call you on this day at this time” and than I would have to wait and think, “Is he going to call is he not going to call” Page 10 �you know I can’t leave. You know what I mean it was just a lot of hassle a lot of difficulty but…but that’s how it was done. No instant messaging, no texting, no emails, no phone messages either. No answering machines, did we have answering machines? I don’t think so. None of the convince. STANISLOVAITIS: That must have been really hard. JIMENEZ: It’s really hard. I know it’s really hard. It’s even hard now when he says “oh I can’t talk to you I have phone fatigue”. It’s like really? Phone fatigue. But anyway yeah it’s it’s really hard. It was really hard, it’s almost like a joke you know “no text messaging” (Laughs) I still don’t have text messaging but I know it’s available. You know what I mean. I mean if I don’t have it it’s because I’m delayed in moving in to the 21st technological advances. 21st century technological advances but not because I don’t want them you know I haven’t found a need for it. But you know it’s there. STANISLOVAITIS: Can you blame anyone that doesn’t want to be connected to everything all of the time? JIMENEZ: I know exactly. I do panic if I can’t find my cell phone. So yes I am one of those that has developed I think they came out on the Internet with a new phobia of being separated from your computer or I don’t know what they call it…eh phobia. So yeah I don need my cell phone. JIMENEZ: I think they came out with a new phobia of being separated from your computer or your…I don’t know what they call it. So yeah, I do need my cell phone. I’m always in the wrong place of town. I’m always like, I’m lost look at the internet, how do I get outta here, you know, and I’m on my way home or had a flat tire {and} ran out of gas, whatever I’m gonna be late, so I do need a cell phone. MOSHER: Earlier you talked about how you think young people they’re ungrateful for what they have. Do you think that’s in part due to the satisfaction of things like text messaging and Skype? JIMENEZ: I just think that, and I think we all, have a little bit of {a} lack of gratitude at one time or another, because it wasn’t until much later that I understood, and felt very grateful, that my parents sent me here. As hard as it was to be away from my parents during my early adolescent years and early adulthood, you know when I wish to be maybe mothered more than what my aunt was willing to do for me- because she wasn’t my mother, she was my aunt, after all. So I felt a little bit ingrateful {sic} not grateful enough, I feel. But later on I understood it was because she really wanted me to have better opportunities, and so I appreciated that highly. And I think with kids now all they have to do is tell the Easter Bunny what they want to bring ‘em and they kinda get it, ya know what I mean? I want a new swimsuit I want a new car, ya know, some kids get it, they just get it. Their parents are there. And so they don’t see that even though their parents go to work everyday, have to punch a card everyday, make sure that they don’t go on vacations, that they follow their finances and expenditures and purchases and stuff like that it still affects them. I think if their parents had a choice they’d wanna stay home, they don’t wanna go to work, ya know, unless they really love their job so much ya know, but at one time or another everybody has had to make even the sacrifice of getting up early in the morning to get in the car to drive to work. You may not always feel…you may like your work, but you may not always feel like you’re ready to go. You wanna sleep late on Monday morning sometimes, ya know? Page 11 �So you take for granted that at one time or another your parents have had to make do to provide for their children. Even if it is a different extra expenditure of the cell phone, the instant messaging, ya know the calls, the extra hours of points so you don’t go over your minutes or whatnot, you know what I mean? New clothes. And you wanna give your kids, too, ya know? So I think that kids just have it easy now. I mean there’s no more child labor, ya know what I mean? And you’re not gonna go hungry, most parents would provide for their kids, unless there are other circumstances, ya know, I’m not saying that all parents have the ability to provide for their children, ya know there is other issues whether it is drug dependency, or mental illness or unemployment like what’s going on right now, but I think for the most part parents, at one time or another, have always made a little compromise for their children. Ya know, diapers are expensive, especially when you’re just starting out and you’re working for a little bit more than minimum wage and you have a baby. And all of a sudden it’s like, it’s not that you don’t want the baby, but another side of you that money’s gonna be not for your haircut or your nails, it’s gonna go for diapers or a bigger Onesie ‘cause he’s growing too fast, ya know, so…and I don’t know that kids understand that, but I think you all will. At one time or another you’ll be parents yourselves and you will understand that a little bit better. MOSHER: Earlier we were talking about how you hadn’t seen much discrimination in America; do you think that’s true for almost everyone or do you think America’s just a really friendly place? JIMENEZ: I don’t know, I don’t wanna say that there isn’t discrimination, I just, from my personal experience, I have to say I have not ever felt it being directed ya know? But I mean I know that, , some African American individuals feel that they have been discriminated. Ya know I have never felt that, ya know. Some of ‘em may say that they need to be ‘paid back’ for slavery after all this time, I never can say that I’ve been a slave so I don’t know their experiences so I don’t have a shared experience with that, but I was like you, learned in school. I don’t deny it- yes, there was slavery- ya know, but I don’t know how to put it. I’m sure there’s discrimination. I can’t say that I have experienced it. STANISLOVAITIS: Well it seems like there’s a really big perception among other countries that Americans are spoiled and entitled, and like you said earlier, kids especially are not grateful for what they have because we have so many opportunities. Since you have been back to Columbia a few times, were you old enough, did you feel that way when you came back to America, did it make you look at Americans differently? JIMENEZ: No, because it’s just the environment that we live in; you just don’t know any better, you just don’t know any different. Until you experience that yourself you’re not gonna realize that it’s any different, right? I think that’s how I see it. But yeah, I could say that most kids are spoiled, but that’s what we want, as parents, we want ‘em to have what we didn’t have, you know what I mean? Like, I never had a beautiful bicycle when I grew up; I learned to ride a bicycle when I was fifteen. So needless to say I’m not very agile in turning wheelies and all this stuff, right, but when Lucas became of age, five or six, to have a bicycle, I got him the most beautiful bicycle I could find, because it was the bicycle I would’ve loved to have had as a kid. And granted it wasn’t purple and it didn’t have little flutteries, but it was a very beautiful red bicycle, right, Lucas? Page 12 �And I think as parents you will learn that it doesn’t matter, you’re gonna try to give your kids the very best you can. So I think that’s just being a parents ‘flaw’ or fault; we wanna give the kids the best. We don’t want them to have an trouble like our parents had or like I had, even though I don’t feel like I’ve had any trouble. We always wanna make it best for them, which may not be the best parenting thing to have done. We still wanna teach them to work hard, to study hard, to achieve, to progress, to motivate. But we don’t accomplish that test by providing things for them. MOSHER: The distaste…from other countries about America, do you think that stems from jealousy, or do they have other motives for disliking us as a country? JIMENEZ: I feel in part it’s jealousy, but also in part it’s their cultural influences, their own cultural influences. Because many people have had a background of being raised in a socialist mentality, that your computer is my computer, too, right? While, in America, it’s like, no, I have my computer, you have your computer, and you have your computer. And you get the computer you can afford, I get the computer I can afford, and you get the computer you can afford, but we all have computers, right? Over there I feel like it comes from the mentality that we’re gonna have to share and I don’t care how much money you have, you’re gonna pay more taxes and that kinda stuff. So it’s partly their social upbringing, their political influences, and their cultural as well. While here in America I feel that if I get two jobs, I might be able to get an Apple {computer} like that. It may take me a little bit longer saving it, but nobody’s gonna tell me I can’t have it. If I want it you betcha I’m gonna work for it and I’m gonna get it, even it means I’m not gonna go to McDonald’s’ for the next two months. Nobody’s telling me I cannot have it; nobody’s regulating whether I can go to the Apple store, or Walmart or Kmart or Meijer’s to get it, ya know what I mean? While over there they may only have one computer for sale; they may not have computers for everybody anyway, whether you have the money or not. Does that make sense? Does that make sense or am I just rambling? MOSHER: Do you think there’s anywhere else in the world that functions on that same ‘if you want it you can have it’ kinda thing, or is America the only place to get that? JIMENEZ: I think, another place might be, I’m assuming, I don’t know for a fact, but I think maybe England might work under those premises. That if you have the money, and you want it, and you have a job, you can get it. While in Mexico, for example, they may not be able to find that second job to buy what they want because their first job isn’t providing for them. Even if they wanted to get a second job, there isn’t one. Even here, with the extent of unemployment, and I don’t know if your parents are employed or unemployed with the economical circumstances we have now, we can still go mow the yards, there are still signs that say ‘help wanted.’ OK, maybe not with the skills that you went to school for or whatever, but you can find a job. I don’t know, I don’t think there’s another place in the world like the United States, I don’t think so. STANISLOVAITIS: You mentioned that you have done a lot of traveling…do you feel like that has given you a bigger appreciation for not only for where you came from and where you are, but from a global view? Page 13 �JIMENEZ: Yeah, because I learned to appreciate other people’s cultures. For example, in my house I like to celebrate the Chinese New Year in January, so we have Chinese food. I love Chinese food, I wouldn’t wanna be without it. I wanna know that it’s available and I like it. I like to go to the Vietnamese kitchen; I like to go to the Italian restaurants, so defiantly I can appreciate the foods. My Pączki’s didn’t go unnoticed from the Polish community, I knew that they were available for when I wanted to get it, so I can appreciate that. I can appreciate the music, and I can appreciate the contributions that they have done not just to the United States, but culturally, and through literature and all that stuff. So yes, it broadens your prospective, and I appreciate that. But I don’t wanna live there; I’m happy right here. I wanna know that I can go just about any city in the United States and find a Chinese restaurant, an Italian restaurant, Greek, ya know. Whatever, I just want it here, I wanna go. STANISLOVAITIS: I think it’s kinda interested you mentioned restaurants and food and general things like that. When people think of things that they don’t have they don’t think of things like that. ‘Cause we’re always taught big things like education, and being independent and being able to provide for yourself. I feel like we don’t realize if we didn’t have those opportunities we wouldn’t have any of that. JIMENEZ: Absolutely. The little things do matter. And pretty soon you’ll realize it’s not the big picture, but it’s things that you do everyday that matter the most. MOSHER: So I guess to wrap things up here it’s safe to say that you think America’s a pretty diverse place? {Inaudible} JIMENEZ: Absolutely. I feel that it’s very diverse, and I feel that people are realizing that they need to fight for the opportunities and to keep it, for the opportunity to continue to be on their level. For the mentality that hard work would provide things for you, not wait for somebody to give them to you, OK. Don’t expect the government to provide for you health care, safety or security, or anything like that. You need to be able to provide those things for yourself, and in return provide it for your family, your community, and your. {Inaudible}. Whether it is the freedom of choice, the freedom of religion, the freedom to go to school and study whatever you want. And to shop for the things you want to shop for, and work as many jobs as you want to. MOSHER: Well, thank you for coming in Group: Thank you END OF INTERVIEW Page 14 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a2588214a018331d7231e2e49e2ef579.mp3 a35c6475300f6ff561200cdd0bcca1a1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Jimenez_Fabiola Title A name given to the resource Fabiola Jimenez audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jimenez, Fabiola Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Mosher, Lucas Overhuel, Kelsie Richard, Kyle Karly Stanislovaitis Description An account of the resource Fabiola Jimenez, a Colombian woman who has been living in East Michigan since 1994. She discusses how she feels as though she was never discriminated against because of her race. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-14 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9d38a8694eadcfdd3a71956170a72db6.pdf 069d503a407a6097aadcd49cce868c95 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Helen Grahuis Interviewers: Alissa Cohen, Hannah Frazer, Bryce Byker and Eli Bale Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/16/2012 Biography and Description Helen Grahius was born and raised in Haren, Groningen, Netherlands. Later in life, she moved to West Michigan to be with her siblings. She discusses her life in the Netherlands and in the United States. Transcript INTERVIEWER: Okay, so we’re recording it now the first thing I gotta do is read you this oral release form. So it’s “I, Helen Grashuis. hereby agree to participate in aninterview in connection with the oral history project known as “Speaking Out: WesternMichigan’s Civil Rights Histories” at Grand Valley State University. I understand thatthe purpose of this project is to collect audio-recorded oral histories, as well as selectedrelated documentary materials such as photographs and manuscripts, from thoseknowledgeable about civil rights and civil rights activism in Western Michigan with thegoal of preserving these materials and making them available for teaching and research.This may include publication in print, multimedia programs such as radio or television. and the WWW, among others.” So, basically we can use the interview you’re giving us. We can like write a paper about it and we can maybe put some of it on the The internet and ... which we probably won’t because it’s just a small thing, but that would be pretty cool (Everyone laughs) GRAHUIS: Now, do I have to have experience? INTERVIEWER: No. You don’t have to have experience! GRAHUIS: Okay! ‘Cause I don’t! (Everyone laughs) INTERVIEWER: (Laughing) Neither do we! Okay number two: I understand that I may be identified by name, subject to my consent. I may also be identified by name in any transcript (whether verbatim or edited) of such interview, subject to my consent. If I choose to remain anonymous, which you can, I know that audio-recordings of my interview will be closed to use, and my name will not appear in the transcript or reference to any material contained in the interview. I know that in the case of choosing to remain anonymous, my interview will only be identified by an internal ‘Speaking Out” project tracking number. So, you’ll just have a number. Page 1 �GRAHUIS: Oh. INTERVIEWER: And you won’t have a name I understand that the interview will take approximately two hours ... or one hour — GRAHUIS: Yeah! ‘Cause I have to go to bible study! INTERVIEWER: ... yeah, (oral release form continued) and that I can withdraw from the project without prejudice prior to the execution and delivery of this release form. So you can still back out at any time. In the event — GRAHUIS: Oh! Let’s go Monique! (Everyone laughs) INTERVIEWER: In the event that I withdraw from the interview, any recordings make of the interview will be either given to me or destroyed, and no transcript will be made of the interview. I understand that a photograph of me may be taken or borrowed for duplication, and that if I withdraw from the project, the photograph will be given to me and any copies made by the project destroyed. Number four: I understand that, upon completion of the interview, and subject to all the other terms and conditions of this agreement, GVSU shall own the copyright to this work and will be able to use it in any manner it chooses including but not limited to use by researchers and students in presentations and publications, but that I shall be given a perpetual permissive license to use my contribution in any manner or any medium as long as I notify GVSU prior to such use. Wow. Number five, there’s only a few more GRAHUIS: Oh, okay. INTERVIEWER: I understand that any restrictions as to use of portions of the interview indicated by me will be edited out of the final copy of the transcript. So, you can tell us to leave parts out if you want number six: I understand that upon the completion of this interview and signing this release, the recordings, photographs, and one copy of the transcript will be kept in Grand Valley State University Libraries’ Special Collections in Allendale, Michigan. So, all of these interviews, we’re keeping them all in one place. So, all the students in our class and other classes are interviewing people also like professors and other people they know and it will all be kept in one place — all those different interviews. GRAHUIS: Oh! INTERVIEWER: Number seven: If I have questions about the research project or procedures, I know that I can contact Dr. Melanie Shell-Weiss in the Department of Liberal Studies, and it tells all her contact information. Okay, so now — do you guys have a pen? — we need you to sign this... are you okay with us identifying you? Is that okay? GRAHUIS: Yes. INTERVIEWER: Awesome. So ... you just need to sign right here. Page 2 �GRAHUIS: My name? INTERVIEWER: Your name, the address and the date, and your phone number. GRAHUIS: The date today is 16, right? INTERVIEWER: Yup, march 16. GRAHUIS: 3, 16. INTERVIEWER: 12. Monique (Helen’s daughter): Yes, my dad really did wear these. (She pulls out a pair of old wooden shoes) INTERVIEWER: Oh my goodness, that’s so cool. Can I see this? What size are these? (Trying the shoes on) GRAHUIS: I don’t know... BALE: You’ll probably fit into them INTERVIEWER: I don’t know... BALE: Actually, they may be a little to big — small, I mean to big. INTERVIEWER: To big? BALE: Yeah, your feet are way to big. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. Ouch. Aw man, I would have to get used to these. I bought a pair when I went there... what size shoe do you wear? 13’s. And those are to big for you? BALE: Do they fit you? INTERVIEWER: No. Not even close. What, they’re way to big? Yeah. BALE: Yeah, they’re to big. INTERVIEWER: I wear 10’s. BALE: Oh wow. GRAHUIS: The interviewee’s me. INTERVIEWER: Do you agree to be identified by name? Oh, and, you don’t wish to remain anonymous. And Helen”... BALE: These are speculaas (pulling out a box of cookies). Have you ever had these? INTERVIEWER: Ooh! GRAHUIS: (signing her name) Grashuis. Page 3 �BALE: They’re like ginger cookies. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: Help yourself. Do you want one, mom? GRAHUIS: No thanks. INTERVIEWER: Alright. I’m just going to write my name for the thing. GRAHUIS: Speculaas. INTERVIEWER: Thank you. BALE: (Pulling out a picture frame) Oh, and this is my dad wearing his wooden shoes. INTERVIEWER: Oh! (Everyone laughs) INTERVIEWER: Wow, that’s awesome. GRAHUIS: Yup. That’s my husband. He died three years ago. INTERVIEWER: Oh really. Okay, so. Did you guys know how we want to start this? Or do we just want to wing it? Well, we have to introduce ourselves. Okay. No that’s not me. (Looking at a picture) I’m not that cute. (Everyone laughs) GRAHUIS: You are! You’ve changed since I’ve last seen you! INTERVIEWER: Look at that... (looking at pictures). GRAHUIS: For the better! INTERVIEWER: Thank you! So we need to introduce ourselves. And say who we’re interviewing. Oh yeah, that’s right! It’s in the sample question packet, I think you’ve got it. That’s right here. This is kind ofjust an outline... BALE: Here I’ll take that. INTERVIEWER: Okay, sweet. I’ve got what we have to say right in here. So, I’m just going to follow what this says may name is Eli Bale. And we have Bryce Byker, Hannah Frazier. Allisa Cohen. We are here on Friday, March the third, at 3:16 — the 16th GRAHUIS: 16 honey. INTERVIEWER: At quarter after 3 pm with Mrs. Helen Grashuis in Kirkhoff on Grand Valley State University’s campus in Allendale, Michigan. We are here about to talk about Mrs. Grashuis’s memories of her childhood and anything else she can remember about her life in western Michigan. Okay. And we also have Monique Bale, who’s here to help us conduct the interview. Page 4 �BALE: Helen’s daughter. GRAHUIS: Oldest daughter. INTERVIEWER: Okay, so, how’d you guys want to start this? Okay, so where were you born exactly? GRAHUIS: I was born in Haren, Groningen. Groningen is the northern part of Netherlands. INTERVIEWER: Oh okay. Very cool. GRAHUIS: And my husband was born in Amsterdam. INTERVIEWER: Oh. How do you spell Groningen? GRAHUIS: Groningen G-r-o-n-i-n-g-e-n. Groningen. INTERVIEWER: Okay, very good. Thank you. Okay, so tell us a little about your family. GRAHUIS: My family — my mom and dad there were nine children in my family. . five boys and four girls. So yeah. Wonderful family. INTERVIEWER: Wait a second for this to go by. GRAHUIS: Okay. INTERVIEWER: And how was that experience growing up with such a large family? GRAHUIS: Real wonderful. INTERVIEWER: You liked it? GRAHUIS: Yeah, we had wonderful parents. INTERVIEWER: Are you close — were you close with your siblings? GRAHUIS: Yes. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Was it typical in that area or time to have that amount of people in a family? GRAHUIS: Yes, yeah. My dad had four brothers and they all had big families. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: We had nine kids. The other ones had, the other one had six girls — INTERVIEWER: Oh my goodness. GRAHUIS: (chucklesj and there were, was another one who had six boys. And so — INTERVIEWER: Jeez. GRAHUIS: Big! Yeah! Those — those times they all had big families. Page 5 �INTERVIEWER: Yeah, wow. It sounds like it. GRAHUIS: Yeah, yeah. We got along real well. INTERVIEWER: What did your parents do for work? What did your dad do for work? GRAHUIS: My dad had his own company, and he, with his brothers, and he selled cement and all that building materials. Yeah, it went real well. INTERVIEWER: What about your mother? Was she just a stay at home mom? GRAHUIS: My mom, ach! Yeah, my mom was a stay at home mom. INTERVIEWER: With that may kids! GRAHUIS: Washing clothes and ... yup. INTERVIEWER: What did a typical day look like for you guys? Like, in like the school year. Like, was it all different grades? Like, in the Netherlands did they have, like, a middle school and a high school where you guys were all separated up into? GRAHUIS: the school I went to the distances were so small. So we walked to school there was one road that go into, from where we were to the, the schools, the Christian school. INTERVIEWER: So it was a pretty small town? GRAHUIS: Yeah. Quite small, and *ahem*, excuse me. a lot of Dutch people. In that, time, there were a lot of people that came from different countries. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: And do you remember anything about your school. GRAHUIS: Well, we had to work hard! (Laughter) INTERVIEWER: Yuuuup, I can relate to that. You said there were people from a lot of different countries so, would you say that everyone was excepting of all the different types of people that were there? GRAHUIS: Yes. INTERVIEWER: Yeah? GRAHUIS: Yeah, uh-huh. And I think mostly they came from the Netherlands. INTERVIEWER: Yeah? GRAHUIS: Yeah. So,— BALE: But mom, you said too, that your community was really tight-nit. You knew all the families. GRAHUIS: Yes. Page 6 �BALE: You had a milkman who came down the street with his horse-cart. those families. The Bucker the Baker’s man. GRAHUIS: He would go through the street with his little red INTERVIEWER: - like cart? GRAHUIS: Cart! Yup, that he pushed. Yeah, it was wonderful time we had, a wonderful time. BALE: And because your family was so big, you didn’t have a whole lot of money. GRAHUIS: Nope. BALE: And it was a home — you slept with your sisters right? GRAHUIS: Yeah. BALE: Two sisters. GRAHUIS: Yup. BALE: And it was very, and in the winter time it was very cold. I remember you telling stories of when you would wake up in the morning and ice would be on your sheets. That’s how cold it was. GRAHUIS: Yup. INTERVIEWER: Wow! BALE: And you slept together to keep warm. GRAHUIS: To keep warm. BALE: And you didn’t have very many clothes. GRAHUIS: That’s right. BALE: And, I was just asking her on the way over here. Did you wear wooden shoes when you were growing up? And she did. She wore wooden shoes all through elementary school. She said, I said, so how do your feet keep warm. She said they had leather slippers that they would put inside their wooden shoes and they would walk. GRAHUIS: Socks of course. BALE: And they would walk through the snow and snow would accumulate on their wooden shoes. INTERVIEWER: Oh my gosh, wow. Kind of like ice skating. Exactly. BALE: And she said when she got to be about, what? Maybe ten. You got your first pair of leather shoes. That was a big deal. Page 7 �GRAHUIS: Oh yeah! We were so proud! We could go to church with our leather shoes we would just walk in the neighborhood and just look at it. Just look at it! INTERVIEWER: Ah, that’s great. Yeah, what about — GRAHUIS: I have such wonderful memories of my youth. INTERVIEWER: Tell us some of those memories. GRAHUIS: Huh? INTERVIEWER: Tell us some of your favorite memories. If you have any. GRAHUIS: (chuckles) Favorite — favorite memories! There was a lot of— there was a lot of land there. So, grass and ditches and we would have a long pole and jump across those ditches and guess what? We would fall in! So beautiful. BALE: So when the canals froze over — INTERVIEWER: Yeah, I was gonna ask about that. Skating! BALE: Yeah, skating for miles and miles. GRAHUIS: Oh yes, we skated for miles — INTERVIEWER: So fun GRAHUIS: That’s, oh that was wonderful. Wonderful. And we had, we had lanterns and we lived, my family lived on, the haven ... haven ... how do you say haven? BALE: Like a little lake. Like a little pond or a little lake. GRAHUIS: Where the boats would come in. INTERVIEWER: Okay, did you live — BALE: Like a harbor! GRAHUIS: Harbor. INTERVIEWER: Did you live — BALE: Like a harbor. INTERVIEWER: - near the ocean? GRAHUIS: Huh? INTERVIEWER: Did you live near the ocean? GRAHUIS: No, no. Page 8 �INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: Opa did. Opa is grandpa. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: And I’m oma. INTERVIEWER: (chuckles) Yup, my oma. I’ve heard you call her that a couple times. Yeah, they were confused when I said that the first time! They were like, What does that mean?” (Laughter) GRAHUIS: (laughing) Yeah! BALE: Yeah, so you lived on the harbor. GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: Yeah. GRAHUIS: And then my dad, my dad would, put us on his back, and we would tie our skates on then we could go on his back and he would drop us off on the harbor. There was ice — well, of course there was ice, otherwise he wouldn’t throw us in! And then at night they would put the lights on these... we call it. INTERVIEWER: Like the lamps? GRAHUIS: Yeah! Yes, yes. Otherwise we would break our neck. But then we would skate from the harbor to the canal. We would have to go under bridges. INTERVIEWER: Did you ever have races? GRAHUIS: What? INTERVIEWER: Did you ever have races on the canals? Like skating races? GRAHUIS: Not that much on the canals. But there were also lakes and that is where they mostly had the races INTERVIEWER: Now I know Opa was quite a big sailor. Did you sail at all when you were growing up? Like, did you go out on the water in boats? GRAHUIS: My husband? INTERVIEWER: Yeah, I know Opa was a big sailor but did you do any sailing or fishing out on the water? GRAHUIS: Fishing! Oh we did a lot of fishing. INTERVIEWER: When did you meet your husband? GRAHUIS: I met my husband in the sixties? No fifties Page 9 �INTERVIEWER: Ok so quite a bit after your childhood. And did you meet him there or when you came to the United States? GRAHUIS: No I met him here. INTERVIEWER: Oh wow! GRAHUIS: Yeah, I met him in church. He saw me sitting in church. Because I had and aunt and uncle that were in Kalamazoo, they immigrated to Kalamazoo, and they had ten kids. So I would go to church with them. And then Hank, my husbands name is Hank, his, let me see, where am I? Oh Yes, they were members of the same church. It was a Christian reformed church in Kalamazoo. I was living in the YWCA. So he found that out and then that sunday night after church, I was in my room and somebody said,” Somebody is here for you”. So I said “Okay”. I had no idea that it was him. So there was Hank INTERVIEWER: Wow, was it love at first sight? GRAHUIS: Yeah, so that is how we met. BALE: But to put a big picture on it, my dad had a family often right? GRAHUIS: Eight. BALE: Yeah, eight kids. But ten all together. They immigrated when he was sixteen. He was sixteen. GRAHUIS: Yes. BALE: So they came over on a big boat, when he was sixteen. And then my mom immigrated when she was twenty five and she came with her brother here to America. GRAHUIS: Yes, my brother was a year younger than I am. BALE: Right. So dad was here already in kalamazoo. GRAHUIS: Yes but I also had uncle John, my brother John, was living here already. And my sister Evelin. They were living here. So we came here from the Netherlands, visiting them. We could stay with them in their home. It was quite something. I was a little homesick at first but thats it. INTERVIEWER: What made up your mind about moving here? What was your motivation for moving here? GRAHUIS: I wanted to see what the United States was like. INTERVIEWER: How old were you when you moved? GRAHUIS: Twenty two. INTERVIEWER: Twenty two? GRAHUIS: I was twenty two years old when I came here. Page 10 �INTERVIEWER: What did you imagine it would be like? GRAHUIS: . INTERVIEWER: Better than It actually was? GRAHUIS: Yeah, I love this country. I am so glad I came here. Of coarse I met my husband here. INTERVIEWER: Did you come over on a boat? GRAHUIS: I flew. INTERVIEWER: Okay cool. GRAHUIS: And my dad paid for the ticket. INTERVIEWER: Oh so You didn’t go with your family? GRAHUIS: Yes my brother. I was twenty two. BALE: Was that Clause? GRAHUIS: Yes. BALE: And John was here already. GRAHUIS: Yes, John was here. John was married. And Eveline was here. BALE: Okay, so two siblings were here and you came over with another brother. GRAHUIS: Yep. BALE: So thats four of the nine kids came over to the states. GRAHUIS: And my mom was very sad that so many came to the united states. BALE: Are the other five still there? GRAHUIS: Yeah they have been here but they would rather stay in the Netherlands. INTERVIEWER: Okay, so what else do you remember from the time you were ten years old to the time you were twenty two? Like when exactly was the nazi occupation? GRAHUIS: Oh I was afraid you were going to say something about that. It was in the forties. INTERVIEWER: How old were you when that happened? GRAHUIS: I was In my thirties. I was thirty eight when it was over. BALE: No, how old where you when the war was going on? You were young. GRAHUIS: Well I was born in 1937. Page 11 �BALE: Ok so you were young. You were six. INTERVIEWER: Do you remember anything about that? Do you remember your lifestyle changing? GRAHUIS: Yes, yes. Because we were living in a home and right next to us was a garage where all the germans were in. And so when all the Americans or the English came over, they would shoot at that garage. But also, we were also bombarded because our home was so close to that garage. So if my brother had stayed that night, we were eating supper, my dad was in church work and so he was not home, my mom was only there with all the kids, and if he would have stayed in that chair he would have been killed. Because the bullet went right through the seat. BALE: So did you here the sirens or did you hear the plans come in? GRAHUIS: We heard the plans come in. BALE: So what they did is they went down into the cellar. Everybody left the table and went into the cellar. GRAHUIS: Yes, I fell into the potato salad. Thats why I have such a potato head. INTERVIEWER: So it seems that you were living in fear for a while then, right? GRAHUIS: Yes, we were. INTERVIEWER: And how long did that go on? GRAHUIS: I think it started in forty two and in forty five it was over. INTERVIEWER: Do you remember your diet changing or your lifestyle changing because you didn’t have enough money? GRAHUIS: Well food was hard to get. INTERVIEWER: I remember you saying something about rations. Did you guys have to do that at all? GRAHUIS: Oh yes, definitely. And we had a big family so would have a lot of sugar and there were some families that could not get it. So we would exchange sugar for what they had. Potatoes or whatever. So that was quite a life. INTERVIEWER: But it sounds like money wasn’t, I mean its a struggle without money, but it sounds like it wasn’t really an issue. Like you say you still loved your memories of growing up and everything. GRAHUIS: Yes, I did. INTERVIEWER: So you still had fun even though the Nazis were around. GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay, and I heard how with the bikes they would take the tires. Did that happen to you guys? Page 12 �GRAHUIS: Oh yeah. INTERVIEWER: Why did they do that? GRAHUIS: because they could use the rubber. They were rubber tires and they could use it. INTERVIEWER: So they took it right off your bikes to use it? GRAHUIS: Yes. INTERVIEWER: Wow. So you had to clatter around on metal wheels for a while? GRAHUIS: Yeah exactly. INTERVIEWER: Do you remember, I mean obviously there was a war going on, but were there any tragedies that hit close to home or to you with friends or anything? GRAHUIS: Yes. Friends, their fathers were transported someplace else. I had a friend and her father was a doctor and he was killed. And of coarse the jews, we had jews in our town. They were picked up. INTERVIEWER: Did you know anyone that was helping them at all? GRAHUIS: Yes, Hanks father was a police man so he hid a lot ofjewish people. INTERVIEWER: That’s really cool. Did he ever get caught? GRAHUIS: No, he did not get caught. And Hank would, on his bike, go to the farmers and pick up milk for the family. INTERVIEWER: What were the nazi soldiers like? Where they mean or did they trouble you guys at all? GRAHUIS: I can not remember much of that. INTERVIEWER: Okay, what did you do for fun around that time? In your free time with your friends and stuff? I know you had a tight knit community and stuff, what did you guys do for fun? GRAHUIS: A lot of things. A lot of little things. INTERVIEWER: Did you guys have any sports you liked to play? I know Opa enjoyed playing soccer. GRAHUIS: Yes. INTERVIEWER: Did you guys have anything like that or did you guys just do little hangouts and stuff? GRAHUIS: Bicycling, and of coarse in the winter skating. INTERVIEWER: And did you guys, I don not know if this is like an American thing but did you guys have like snowball fights and build snowmen? GRAHUIS: Oh yeah. Page 13 �INTERVIEWER: Okay, I guess a worldwide thing. GRAHUIS: Yep when you have snow you make a snowman. INTERVIEWER: What about Christmas time? Did you have any traditions you used to do? Like, I know you used to put shoes by the door or something like that? GRAHUIS: Yeah I put something in it. Yep we sure did. INTERVIEWER: Now around Christmas time did you have your relatives come over or was it just your family? BALE: What was Christmas like? Christmas day. GRAHUIS: Oh we would decorate the whole room and it was nice. BALE: Did you exchange presents? GRAHUIS: Yes we did. Little gifts. very little gifts because we did not have much money as kids because we did not work. INTERVIEWER: No ipods? GRAHUIS: Nope. INTERVIEWER: Where there any traditions you brought from to the United States from back in the Netherlands? GRAHUIS: Our Dutch cooking. Stumput. INTERVIEWER: What is that? I have never heard of it. GRAHUIS: You put potatoes, you cook potatoes and carrots and you mash them all up. The kids love it. BALE: Potatoes, carrots, onions. GRAHUIS: And onions. INTERVIEWER: Where did that meal come from? Do you remember how it originated into the Netherlands? GRAHUIS: No, i think its more a dutch meal. Interviewer. Okay, because I remember someone, i do not remember who it was, told me that, when they did not have a lot of ingredients and stuff during the war and they had just potatoes, onions and carrots, they were like lets just throw it all into a pot, mash it up and see what come out. And that was stumpot. And Tm glad they did. Its really good. BALE: So your diet was mainly potatoes. very little meat because meat was expensive. GRAHUIS: Oh yeah, we did not eat much meat at all. It as very expensive. BALE: And then the fish. Page 14 �GRAHUIS: fish yeah. BALE: Yes, and dutch cheese. INTERVIEWER: Now did you ever go on to college? Helen: No I did not go to college. I went to high school. INTERVIEWER: Okay, do you have any specific memories from your hight school? GRAHUIS: Yeah we had some things that we did together as a class. We did everything on bicycles. We would go swimming and it was quite a ways away. And we did a lot of biking. So one those days you did not see very many people. INTERVIEWER: And what about jobs? Did you get ajob when you graduated high school? GRAHUIS: No. I did not work. BALE: But you did say you had ajob in Haden that you had to bike to. And that was after hight school. You were in your twenties. Didm’t you have a secretarial job? GRAHUIS: Oh yeah. When I was older. BALE: Before you immigrated over. What was that job? GRAHUIS: Ill have to think, what did I do? I worked at an office. INTERVIEWER: Okay BALE: You worked there everyday. Haden was how far from Cronighan? INTERVIEWER: What is that? GRAHUIS: Stumput. INTERVIEWER: I’ve never heard of that. INTERVIEWER: Me Either. GRAHUIS: You have potatoes. You cook potatoes, and carrots, and-uh then you mash them all up. INTERVIEWER: Ooo INTERVIEWER: That sounds good. GRAHUIS: And- the kids love it. BALE: And onions. Potatoes, carrots and onions. GRAHUIS: And onions. Page 15 �INTERVIEWER: And where did that meal come from, like, where did that meal come from? Do you remember, like, how it originated in the Netherlands? (Pause) INTERVIEWER: Okay GRAHUIS: I think its more Dutch. The DutchINTERVIEWER: Okay because I remember someone, I don’t remember who it was, told me that they didn’t, when they didn’t have, like a lot of ingredients and stuff during the war, like and they had just potatoes, onions, and carrots, they were like lets throw it all into a pot, mash it up, and see what comes out. (Laughs) GRAHUIS: Uh-huh INTERVIEWER: So they had stumput, GRAHUIS: Uh-huh BALE: Yeah INTERVIEWER: And I’m glad they did. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: It’s really good! GRAHUIS: Uh-huh BALE: So your diet was mainly potatoes, very little meat because meat was expensive. GRAHUIS: Oh yeah. We didn’t eat much meat at all. (Pause) It was very expensive. INTERVIEWER: Um-hm BALE: And the fish. GRAHUIS: Fish. Yeah. BALE: And cheese. GRAHUIS: And cheese. That’s cheese. INTERVIEWER: Um-hm. (Pause) Now did you go to college? GRAHUIS: No. I did not go to college. I went to high school. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: Uh-.huh. INTERVIEWER: Do you have any specific memories from your high school? GRAHUIS: Yeah. We had some things that we did together as a class. Page 16 �INTERVIEWER: Mmm GRAHUIS: we would We did everything on bicycles. INTERVIEWER: Mmmmmm GRAHUIS: . We would go to go swimming, andINTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: . It was quite a ways away, and, yeah. We did a lot of a lot of biking, biking. INTERVIEWER: Mm GRAHUIS: Yeah. So in those days you didn’t see very many big people. BALE: (Laugh) INTERVIEWER: Yeah! (Laugh) And what about jobs? Did you get a job when you graduated high school? GRAHUIS: No. I did not work. BALE: But you did say you had a job. In, GRAHUIS: Holland. BALE: that you had to bike to. When, that was after high school though. When you were in your twenties. (Pause) Didn’t you have a secretarial job or ajob that you, I remember you saying that you GRAHUIS: Oh yeah. When I was older. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: Yeah. Before you immigrated over. INTERVIEWER: Before you immigrated. Yeah. That’s, yeah. GRAHUIS: Yeah. BALE: What was that job? GRAHUIS: let me think what did I do? (Pause) I worked at an office. INTERVIEWER: Okay BALE: Yup. You’d bike there everyday. GRAHUIS: Um-hm BALE: Howden was how far from Kronian (32:14)? GRAHUIS: five kilometers. Page 17 �BALE: Okay. INTERVIEWER: Hm, Okay. GRAHUIS: And I would go there in the morning, and then for lunch I would come home, and then at one o’clock I would go back. INTERVIEWER: Oh, wow. GRAHUIS: So, it’s a lot of biking. INTERVIEWER: That is a lot. Yeah. A couple miles in everyday. BALE: And you lived at home? GRAHUIS: I lived at home. Yeah. BALE: Okay. INTERVIEWER: And your family got along pretty well together, all of you kids? GRAHUIS: Eh, yeah. Hey, when you’re kids you have to fight once and a while. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: Yeah. I know what that’s like. BALE: I remember GRAHUIS: We’re not perfect. BALE: Yeah. I remember you recently telling me this too that your grandfather lived with you. Your grandfather lived with you. INTERVIEWER: Oh. GRAHUIS: My Mom’s father. BALE: Right, and he didn’t have his own room cuz there were no rooms left over. He would sleep in the, on the couch. GRAHUIS: Yeah on the couch. BALE: On the couch in the dinning room, living room. GRAHUIS: Yes. BALE: Okay, and that just, he was part of the family. GRAHUIS: Yeah. That’s where he died. BALE: And that’s where he died. GRAHUIS: Yup. Page 18 �BALE: Okay. GRAHUIS: Yup. Um-hm. That’s right. (Pause) Yup. INTERVIEWER: Do you remember anything about the churches in the Netherlands, like the church you went to? GRAHUIS: Well they’re not like here. Um, in those days we didn’t have our groups INTERVIEWER: Like bible study and? GRAHUIS: Yes. Exactly. Um-hm. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: So it was more for the older people. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Do they have an organ in the church? GRAHUIS: Oh yeah. Beautiful organ. BALE: Beautiful organ. GRAHUIS: Um-hm. BALE: Yup. INTERVIEWER: That’s cool. Now about your immigration, do you guys have any other questions about Holland? INTERVIEWER: No. I think we’ve heard a lot. INTERVIEWER: Okay was it uncommon for people to rnove to the United States in the Netherlands, or was it pretty common for people to just head over here? GRAHUIS: It was, yeah. There was a certain time period where a lot of people came to the United States. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: Or Canada. INTERVIEWER: Or Canada. INTERVIEWER: And was it just because they wanted to, or was there a reason they were leaving the Netherlands? Page 19 �GRAHUIS: it was, (Pause) it was well, we have big families. You know? Like my aunt and uncle. They immigrated because it wasn’t (Pause) they could feed them here. INTERVIEWER: So a better life? GRAHUIS: Yeah. A better life. INTERVIEWER: Opportunities. GRAHUIS: A much better life especially also going to school. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. GRAHUIS: . They would go to college here or- . So, (Pause) yup. A lot of big families immigrated. Yup. This is a great country. INTERVIEWER: Now, when you came to the U.S. so you boarded a plane from the Netherlands, and where did you... GRAHUIS: Amsterdam. Yup. INTERVIEWER: From Amsterdam. Where did you arrive? Where was your destination in the U.S.? Did you land in like New York or (Pause) where did you land on the flight? GRAHUIS: I think we landed where did we go to? BALE: Probably Chicago. GRAHUIS: Oh! Oh no. Detroit yeah, Detroit. INTERVIEWER: Was your intention always to come to Michigan? GRAHUIS: Yeah because I had a sister and a brother here. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. GRAHUIS: Um-hm. INTERVIEWER: So where did you go? Where did you start living When you got to the U.S.? GRAHUIS: Michigan. INTERVIEWER: Michigan. Like where INTERVIEWER: What city? INTERVIEWER: Like Kalamazoo or? GRAHUIS: Kalamazoo. INTERVIEWER: Okay, and that was, you lived with your brother then? Page 20 �GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: John and Ida. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: What was that like? GRAHUIS: John was my oldest brother. INTERVIEWER: Like did you find ajob right away or did you just? GRAHUIS: I also worked here in an office. INTERVIEWER: Oh okay. GRAHUIS: Uh-huh, and when did I start driving school bus? BALE: That was way later. GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Yeah that was way later. BALE: Didn’t you work at a department store? GRAHUIS: Yeah. BALE: In like, yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: Didn’t you even model some cloths? Did you model some cloths or? GRAHUIS: Yeah I did. I did. BALE: We should have brought a picture of it. INTERVIEWER: Yeah! I would have loved to see those! BALE: You were very nice looking. (Laughs) GRAHUIS: Yeah BALE: Oh well. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: We don’t need to talk about that. (Laugh) Stop. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: So then, was it quite recent after you moved to the U.S. that you met Opa? Page 21 �GRAHUIS: Yes. Uh-huh. Yup. INTERVIEWER: Okay. So was that like a few years after afterwards or? GRAHUIS: He was, oh gosh, he was in, he was in the military? (Pause) Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: I was, let’s see now. Opa was twenty-five when I, when we married, and I was twenty-four. No. He was twenty-four; I was twenty-five. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: So INTERVIEWER: Oh. So you met each other and you got married quite soon after that then. GRAHUIS: Yes. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: Uh-huh. INTERVIEWER: So love at first sight kind of thing? GRAHUIS: Yup. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: Right when you walked up to the door? (Laughs) GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: so after you got married what did you guys do after that, like did you move somewhere, or did you get a house. GRAHUIS: Yeah. We got a house, and we had a house full of kids. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: Okay. Tell us about that. INTERVIEWER: How many kids do you have? GRAHUIS: Three daughters. INTERVIEWER: Three daughters? GRAHUIS: -him. Monique is the oldest, and then we have Michelle, a year later, and then we have Melissa. BALE: A year later. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: Wow! GRAHUIS: So Melissa lives in Australia. Page 22 �INTERVIEWER: Wow. GRAHUIS: And she’s coming here with her husband and their two children in a couple weeks. Right? INTERVIEWER: Mrnm. Yup. I’m looking forward to that. GRAHUIS: Yup. INTERVIEWER: To visit or to move? GRAHUIS: To visit. INTERVIEWER: Okay. INTERVIEWER: And what about that family experience? How did that differ from your family experience in the Netherlands? GRAHUIS: I don’t know. What do you mean with that? INTERVIEWER: Well, I mean just, what was your family experience like here I guess? Did you INTERVIEWER: With your husband and your children. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: How did it differ from how you grew up in the Netherlands? INTERVIEWER: Did you have a better lifestyle here would you say or? BALE: Did you have a better lifestyle here? GRAHUIS: Yeah. Definitely. INTERVIEWER: Yeah? GRAHUIS: Oh definitely. INTERVIEWER: Yeah? GRAHUIS:huh. Yeah. Yup. INTERVIEWER: And was it ever, I mean, hard with money and anything or? GRAHUIS: No. My husband had a very good job. He went to the Kalamazoo college there. INTERVIEWER: Oh. Yeah. BALE: It’s Western Michigan. INTERVIEWER: Uh-huh. Page 23 �GRAHUIS: Yeah, and then he got his masters degree in Illinois, Northern Illinois University, and yeah. He had a good job. We had a good life. Yeah, and then Melissa went to Calvin right? INTERVIEWER: Calvin. Oh Yeah. BALE: Um-hrn. GRAHUIS: And you went to Calvin. BALE: Um-hm. GRAHUIS: And Michelle went to Farry, Farris. Farris! BALE: Um-hm. GRAHUIS: Yup. INTERVIEWER: So, did you, so you got married, and you lived in Kalamazoo GRAHUIS: Yes. INTERVIEWER: For a few years. Did you live there, now how long did you live in Kalamazoo? GRAHUIS: How long did we live in Kalamazoo INTERVIEWER: Like was it a long time, like did you have all three of your daughters in Kalamazoo? GRAHUIS: No. They were born in Chicago. INTERVIEWER: Okay. INTERVIEWER: Oh really? GRAHUIS: Yeah. Oh we moved all over the place. INTERVIEWER: Oh wow. INTERVIEWER: Tell us a little bit about that, like where did you guys, what were the different places you guys lived? GRAHUIS: Okay. That’s up to her. (Laughs) GRAHUIS: She knows better. BALE: So you lived in Michigan for a little bit after you were married. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: And then you moved down to Chicago, where Dad got his masters, and then you started having us. We lived in Chicago for, I remember, about five years ‘cuz when I was kindergarten age we moved back up to Grand Haven, Michigan. Page 24 �INTERVIEWER: Oh. Okay. BALE: And that’s where we settled for, probably until I was in junior high, high school. GRAHUIS: -him BALE: So that’s where we started school, all three of us, and lived in Grand Haven. Yeah, and then we we lived in Grand Haven, and-uh we lived not too far from your sister, Evelyn, and another brother, Klaus, and another brother, John. So all three of the families, all four of the families were in Grand Haven. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: And we were very close with the families. We all grew up together. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: Lots of cousins. GRAHUIS: Yeah. BALE: And that was good. GRAHUIS: Yeah. BALE: That was a very good, good growing up. INTERVIEWER: A good few years? BALE: Yup, and when we got together we... everybody would be speaking Dutch. It was all, everything was in Dutch, and our INTERVIEWER: You too Mom? INTERVIEWER: So yeah. You know Dutch as well? BALE: Well I can understand it. INTERVIEWER: Oh okay. I didn’t know that. BALE: Yeah we can understand it. GRAHUIS: Melissa’s good at it. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: We didn’t necessarily converse or speak, but it was all Dutch, and Dutch food. during the holidays, our Christrnas especially, we would always look forward to... they make like a specialty. Yeah a Dutch specialty is oliebollen. So it’s INTERVIEWER: Oliebollen, mmrnmm. Page 25 �BALE: Kind of a daylong process of making the dough and rising the the yeast rising it GRAHUIS: Yup. BALE: And it was all made out in the garage. It was GRAHUIS: So you don’t get all that smell in your home. BALE: Yup, and this is very traditional. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. BALE: So we would have oliebollen. INTERVIEWER: That’s awesome. So you guys took home some traditions from back there? BALE: Oh yeah! GRAHUIS: You Dutch. You know that. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. I know a lot about the food and stuff, but, and I love the food, but I haven’t heard of that before. I’ve never heard of that before, so. BALE: Oh oliebollen? INTERVIEWER: Yeah. I’ve never heard of that. BALE: Oh very traditional. INTERVIEWER: It’s good. It’s good too. GRAHUIS: Yeah. You fry them in oil. You have a pan full of oil, and you dump the stuff INTERVIEWER: The dough. GRAHUIS: Yeah, the dough. INTERVIEWER: Oh okay. GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Now did you, is that when you had your school bus job? GRAHUIS: When did I start INTERVIEWER: In Grand Haven. BALE: You started driving school oh boy. That wasn’t in Georgia. I would say GRAHUIS: No that was in Kalama, in- that was in Grand Haven. BALE: In Grand Haven. Page 26 �GRAHUIS: Yes. BALE: Okay. GRAHUIS:huh. INTERVIEWER: When was GRAHUIS: And I was the best bus driver. (Laughs) GRAHUIS: In Grand Haven. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: Yeah. The kids loved you. INTERVIEWER: I’m sure. GRAHUIS: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: That’s awesome. GRAHUIS: Although, I could also be INTERVIEWER: Yeah. I heard you had to like, I remember you telling us storied about some of the kids on your bus, like some of them were very unruly, and GRAHUIS: Oh yah. They can be. INTERVIEWER: Oh yeah. So GRAHUIS: Children are children. INTERVIEWER: What age group did you, was it elementary, middle school? GRAHUIS: All age. INTERVIEWER: Oh all? GRAHUIS: Yup. Kindergarteners I had a kindergarten run in the afternoon, at noon, so I liked it, and now I get a little pension. (Laughs) INTERVIEWER: So where did you, you said you moved to Georgia? INTERVIEWER: Yeah where does Georgia fall into this? BALE: -hrn. INTERVIEWER: What other places did you move? BALE: We were very sad about that. INTERVIEWER: After Grand Haven? Okay. Page 27 �BALE: We lived in Grand Haven for, after Chicago, five years, we lived in Grand Haven for up until I was about, I would say, tenth grade, and Michelle ninth, and Melissa eighth, and then we, so it was very hard to leave a tight nit family group. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. BALE: . INTERVIEWER: That’s a tough time to leave. BALE: Um-hm. I was pretty devastated. So Dad got ajob down in near Atlanta, which is Roswell, Georgia. INTERVIEWER: Uh-huh. BALE: And so we left the family up in Grand Haven. We moved down to Georgia where Dad worked for a company. We were there for two years living in the south. INTERVIEWER: Oh gees. BALE: Yeah, and then INTERVIEWER: So you graduated there. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. BALE: No. I didn’t. INTERVIEWER: Oh no? BALE: Two years later, actually a year... two years later. We lived down there for two years I think. INTERVIEWER: -hm. BALE: And then we moved up to New York. INTERVIEWER: Oh wow. You guys have been all over. BALE: And we moved up to New York, and we lived there on Long Island for a year. GRAHUIS: Yup. Long Island. That’s right. INTERVIEWER: Wow. INTERVIEWER: Was this all for his work? BALE: So back up. I think GRAHUIS: Yeah. BALE: Georgia was my ninth grade. I moved in ninth grade to Georgia. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Page 28 �BALE: Ninth and tenth. GRAHUIS: Okay. BALE: Moved up to Long Island for a year, and that was very different ‘cuz we were blonde Dutch people. INTERVIEWER: Yeah! BALE: Living in GRAHUIS: She had boyfriends all over. (Laughs) BALE: We lived in an Italian; I mean it was all Italian. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. BALE: And, so those were our friends. INTERVIEWER: Just for the interviews sake, did you guys appreciate all the diversity that was around you or did you ever feel, or was there any sense of segregation ever? Like that’s just one of the questions we were just wondering about with the interviews we’re doing. GRAHUIS: No, no. INTERVIEWER: No sense of segregation? Okay. BALE: I don’t think so. GRAHUIS: No, not at all. INTERVIEWER: Because the U.S. was a very diverse time, very diverse time back then. GRAHUIS: No, I never felt that. INTERVIEWER: And your family, you’ve always been accepting of other races and stuff? GRAHUIS: Yeah. BALE: Yeah, I mean we grew up in a very, I mean it was a very Dutch, Western Michigan, so I don’t think. INTERVIEWER: Still is. BALE: We were among our own people. There was not much in Western Michigan diverse wise. In Grand Haven, Kalamazoo, it was mainly Dutch. INTERVIEWER: What about Chicago? BALE: Chicago was a little different. I don’t, I was young so I don’t really remember. in the apartment complex, I don’t remember a whole lot of diversity there. No. Page 29 �INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: But now like Monique, for instance, adopted an American, BALE: African American. GRAHUIS: African American boy. INTERVIEWER: Sean. GRAHUIS: Sean. Sean is our, Eli’s brother. INTERVIEWER: He’s my bro. GRAHUIS: And now she’s adopting two children of Congo. And she’s getting those two children, they are sisters. And she’s getting them in May. INTERVIEWER: That’s great, that’s awesome. That’s really cool. That’s’ really exciting. BALE: So here’s 100% Dutch, 100% Dutch. GRAHUIS: The blondies and the blackies. BALE: Lots of color, lots of color in our family. So yeah, we’ve never felt segregated. INTERVIEWER: So is there any specific memories that either of you have in those three, those five places that you lived? Like because you just told us about the history, Chicago, Georgia, New York, Netherlands, and Grand Haven. Do you have any specific memories of just like, a story or anything? Can you wrap your brain around? GRAHUIS: You probably do being in school. BALE: Specific stories? GRAHUIS: Didn’t you have a little problem in the Netherlands in school? BALE: yeah, I think some of my best memories were in the Netherlands. INTERVIEWER: Okay. BALE: Some of my best memories were there because we were in a completely different culture. I mean the Netherlands, but we were actually living in Holland. And we were old enough to travel around, so, because I was eighteen we traveled, when you’re in the Netherlands and there’s countries all around you, it’s like traveling to the next state or the next town, because I mean Belgium was, Germany was a few hours, right across the way. We would vacation, we vacationed in Italy and we went to Germany with our youth group. And for a class trip we went to London. And then GRAHUIS: So you would, oh excuse me. Then you would live with other families, didn’t you? BALE: No, not in the Netherlands, not in my high school years. Page 30 �GRAHUIS: Oh okay, oh. BALE: Yeah, so we had the freedom of travelling so it was wonderful, it was wonderful experiencing different culture in my high school years. But yeah, I think those are some of the best memories. And for a specific story, I don’t remember Eli, I’m sorry. INTERVIEWER: Maybe later you can tell me. BALE: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Okay so, you said you moved back to Grand Haven? BALE: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: and then you went off to college and then I’m assuming Aunt Mitchie and Aunt Lizzie went off to college several years after that. So then when then they all left, it was just you and Opa? Now, is that about the time you got a bus driving job? Like I remember BALE: I think during our college years you were bus driving. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: Mhm. BALE: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: And you must have drove buses for a while then because I can still remember when you GRAHUIS: I did, I did. I drove bus for twenty years. INTERVIEWER: Oh my gosh. Wow, that’s a long time. GRAHUIS: Get up at five o’clock in the morning and I pick all those kids up at home. INTERVIEWER: Oh wow. GRAHUIS: Oh, especially in the winter time. INTERVIEWER: Was it a fun job though? GRAHUIS: Oh, huh? INTERVIEWER: Was it fun? GRAHUIS: Yeah, I liked it, I enjoyed it. BALE: I think that an important thing for this interview is I a very big thing about being Dutch, and a very big thing that has, from the Dutch culture, I think ingrained in each one of the kids is being hard working and being thrifty. I think both you and dad were very hard working and you instilled that in us. And also spending wisely, being thrifty. This is all from the Dutch culture, because there was not much when you were growing up, there was not much to go around. You just made do with what you had. And you also, Page 31 �you all pulled together, you all had your chores. I remember you each having your chores. Because you had to rely on each other to do the work that had to be done. So that kind of passes on to the generations. Passing on down now to Eli. Your very hard working, aren’t you Eli? INTERVIEWER: Of course I am. So now you live in Grand Haven? GRAHUIS: I live in Grand Haven, yeah. INTERVIEWER: So what do you do now in Grand Haven, how do you spend your days? GRAHUIS: I lay on the couch. INTERVIEWER: Yeah. Do you live by yourself? GRAHUIS: I live by myself, yeah. Yeah, my husband died in November ‘08. So yeah. I have, of course, I have three daughters and they moved away she lives in the U.P., Michelle lives in Saginaw, and Melissa lives in Australia. And so I don’t have very much, I have a brother John that was the first one to come here, and he lives in Kalamazoo. Then I have a brother Peter who lives in South Bend. And I have some brothers, two sisters. Yeah. INTERVIEWER: And down in Kalamazoo there’s a little community of, that’s branched out from there, right? GRAHUIS: Lot’s of Dutch. INTERVIEWER: Lot’s of our family live down there still? GRAHUIS: Yes. BALE: And also, when we were growing up, we took two trips; we took two family trips to the Netherlands. So we were, I think my first trip over to the Netherlands to visit Opa and Oma. which is her folks, was when I was seven, eight? So we would, we would spend, I don’t know how many weeks we were there, three weeks maybe, we would live in, we would vacation over in _____? and we would bike around in Holland and we would get to know the Dutch cousins and get to know the Dutch aunts and uncles. And it was only during those trips that we got to know our Dutch side. because otherwise we didn’t grow know them at all. INTERVIEWER: Except for the few Dutch family you had in Grand Haven? BALE: Over here, right. But our other part of the family was over in the Netherlands. INTERVIEWER: That was a major part of your family. You really got to experience a major part of your roots. BALE: Right, right. INTERVIEWER: That’s awesome. Page 32 �BALE: And our second trip, we took another trip, we took two trips, anyways those were wonderful, precious memories. INTERVIEWER: That’s really cool that you got to do that. GRAHUIS: And I took her and my middle daughter, I took them to Australia. INTERVIEWER: Oh yeah, that was recent. GRAHUIS: Last year, January, yeah. INTERVIEWER: Yeah I can remember, just more recent years just all the times we would come to your house, like especially when the Yates were living in Cincinnati. I remember going to your house for Christmas and stuff and the whole family would be there. Go out to Penn Hill, camp in Big Rapids. Go there and yeah, I just remember going to Thanksgiving at your house and just coming down and visiting, going to church with you guys. GRAHUIS: See, those are all wonderful memories, yeah. INTERVIEWER: I remember mom, well I don’t remember you, I remember the video of you guys getting married in the backyard. That’s really fun. BALE: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: What about big events like, in the news and stuff when you were in, after you moved to the U.S.. Do you remember, like, the Martin Luther King Jr. “I had a Dream” or do you remember all that stuff? GRAHUIS: No. BALE: Do you remember Kennedy being shot? GRAHUIS: Oh yes. Yes. I remember that one, because you were a baby, I was feeding you. And the radio, it said that the president had been killed. BALE: Any other big events? INTERVIEWER: Vietnam War, or? GRAHUIS: No I don’t remember much about that. BALE: Do you remember much about civil rights, mom? GRAHUIS: No. BALE: What was going on in Detroit? GRAHUIS: No. BALE: African Americans? Page 33 �GRAHUIS: I don’t, I’d have to think about it first. BALE: What music? GRAHUIS: Music? BALE: What kind of music were you INTERVIEWER: You love the organ music. BALE: Yeah, Opa was big into organ music. That was also another thing. GRAHUIS: Yeah, I love guitar music. INTERVIEWER: That’s good. GRAHUIS: That’s how he learned. INTERVIEWER: That’s one of the reasons. GRAHUIS: I have two guitars. BALE: We had an old, and this is another part of growing up Dutch, is Dad played the organ, and we had an old pump organ in our house, and he would, all the family would come over, he would pump the organ and we would all sing hymns around the organ. And that’s what we would do when we would all get together. Youd have coffee, or another big Dutch thing is drinks. INTERVIEWER: Wine. GRAHUIS: Glass of wine. BALE: Little glass of wine. GRAHUIS: Like we had last night. We don’t overdo it. Oh no, just a little bit. BALE: We would play the pump organ and we would all sing around the pump organ. People don’t do that anymore. INTERVIEWER: It’s kind of like the American the American idea of singing around the campfire with a guitar and stuff. BALE: Yeah. INTERVIEWER: Yeah GRAHUIS: Where’s my purse. I need to take my medication. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, my grandma really likes to do that, get around the piano or something and sing songs and stuff. BALE: Oh really? Page 34 �INTERVIEWER: Is your grandma Dutch? Yeah she is. Yeah. BALE: I think that was a big thing with the Dutch is that, and that’s what you did growing up, is that after church, you would go to either your uncles or your aunts and you would all get together for coffee. GRAHUIS: Yeah, we did. BALE: And we’d always have we’d always talk and you’d have cookies and yeah, just gathering and hanging out. INTERVIEWER: Exactly. BALE: And no computers. GRAHUIS: No, no computers. BALE: And the cousins would play together. GRAHUIS: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, good times. INTERVIEWER: Good food and good company. I said good food and good company. That’s great. GRAHUIS: Yeah. So, we should not forget that I have to go to my bible study. BALE: Yeah, she has a gathering to get to. INTERVIEWER: What time? It’s okay. BALE: Six o’clock I have to be at a restaurant. INTERVIEWER: Okay. We’ll make sure, we’ll make sure. Is there anything else you remember from, anything else, anything you want to share, about anything? Anything you want to be written about? Like we’re going to be writing a paper on this. Is there anything you want us to acknowledge? GRAHUIS: . BALE: Can I say something? I remember a very important event which I was able to go with you, was when I was at Calvin, I think it was at Calvin. or I was living in Grand Rapids going to school and you wanted to become a U.S. citizen. So I went down to, down to the courthouse, or I don’t remember, it was in Grand Rapids somewhere, and we went into a big room with many other folks from all different countries. We sat there, we went, we sat through an entire ceremony, and all the flags were represented, and then you receive your American citizenship. That was a really cool time. And you had to say the Pledge of Allegiance. It was really awesome. INTERVIEWER: Did your dad do that too? BALE: He did, but earlier. INTERVIEWER: Okay. Page 35 �BALE: I wasn’t around when dad became a citizen. GRAHUIS: No, dad went into the military. That’s, automatically how you become a citizen. INTERVIEWER: Oh okay, that makes sense. BALE: I also remember you did not graduate from, you never received your diploma from the Netherlands from high school. GRAHUIS: I got it when I came here. BALE: She went into America, you got your GED, you had to study, you had to take a test to get your high school diploma. I don’t know why you never graduated. INTERVIEWER: When did you get your diploma in high school? Were you alive, Mom? BALE: Oh yeah. Oh, I remember mom, I was in, I think I was in junior high or high school. I was in, yeah, you were studying for your GED because you wanted to graduate. INTERVIEWER: But you still had jobs and everything, you know? The difference between now and then. Now you have to go to college to get a job. It’s crazy. How was learning English? Was that difficult? GRAHUIS: Yeah, well I learned that in high school. We take, we learned. BALE: In the Netherlands. GRAHUIS: Yeah, we take German, French, English. All those. BALE: Italian? GRAHUIS: No, not Italian. BALE: Oh I thought you did. INTERVIEWER: So you know them all? GRAHUIS: Well French I don’t, I never kept up. I know German. I know of course English and Dutch. All those languages I studied. INTERVIEWER: That makes sense. So by the time you came to America, you were fluent in English? GRAHUIS: Well, I can’t say fluent. I did my best. INTERVIEWER: You could understand, Okay. Well that’s cool. GRAHUIS: When I came to this country I was living with my sister, and they would they would listen to the radio orthings I didn’t understand, hut you learn. INTERVIEWER: You put yourself in the environment and you kind of learn how it is. GRAHUIS: Yeah, yeah. Page 36 �INTERVIEWER: That’s awesome. I think that’s good. Is there anything else you want to share? GRAHUIS: Not that I know of. INTERVIEWER: Okay. GRAHUIS: We’ll have another meeting sometime. INTERVIEWER: Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much. That’s the interview. END OF INTERVIEW Page 37 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b10abc3d867c92b3a07cd428e0fe1569.mp3 2dd12b6b79bfc5f986c60c3971c2204d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Grahuis_Helen Title A name given to the resource Helen Grahuis audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grahuis, Helen Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cohen, Alissa Frazer, Hannah Byker, Bryce Bale, Eli Description An account of the resource Helen Grahius was born and raised in Haren, Groningen, Netherlands. Later in life, she moved to West Michigan to be with her siblings. She discusses her life in the Netherlands and in the United States. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-16 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/06daf1c677eb3e3a4938ded815fb5fdf.pdf bd37c91983eff174cd80762af392dc3e PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Gamal Gasim Interviewers: Gagan Singh Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 4/23/2012 Biography and Description Gamal Gasim, assistant professor of Middle East Studies and Political Science, earned his PhD in political science from Texas Tech. He teaches Introduction to Middle East Studies, Middle East politics, and comparative politics. Before Grand Valley, he taught at Texas Tech, University of Wisconsin-Madison during the summers of 2006 and 2007, and at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and Beloit College during the summers of 2008 and 2009 respectively. He discusses how people who do not know anything about Islam or Muslims discriminate against them, and how the media plays a negative role in society in America. Transcript GAGAN: So. Well first of all I would like to know some basic information about you. Like, where you’re from... GASIM: Yemen, I’m from Yemen. But, I was born and raised in Sudan. GAGAN: Ok. GASIM: Then I moved back to Yemen. I spend all of my vacations in Sudan. And then, when I finished my undergraduate and ....Do you want to close the door so...(A LOT OF BACKGROUND NOISE) So, I was raised in Sudan I received all of my education until I finished my undergraduate at the University of Hartford (??), went back to Yemen and then I went to Malaysia and did my first Master’s degree there in Malaysia. I went back to Yemen and I work- I worked two years, then I came back, I came, to the U.S. I did my second Master’s degree and my Doctorate and I joined Grand Valley almost three years ago. GAGAN: Oh, so right after you finished yourGASIM: Yes, yes. Actually before I finished, one year before I finished. GAGAN: Oh okay. GASIM: I finished in 2010, and I joined Grand Valley in 2009. Page 1 �GAGAN: Okay. GASIM: As assistant professor (LISTEN TO AGAIN @ 1:10) Silence GAGAN: So, where did you say you did your doctorate? GASIM: Texas. Texas Tech. GAGAN: Texas? Oh, okay. So then you moved to Michigan right after? GASIM: My Master’s was in Kansas and then I moved to Texas and then I came to Michigan. GAGAN: Oh, yes. You’ve been travelling all over. GASIM: Yeah, and I also work in Wisconsin and I work in Illinois during the summer. University of Wisconsin- Madison, University of (???) College of (??) in Wisconsin and University of Illinois- UrbanaChampaign. I taught two years here and two years there and during the summers. GAGAN: What do you do at the Madison, the school of Madison? Kansas? School of Madison? GASIM: Kansas University has a school of (Medicine/Madison??). Kansas State, Kansas State University, they don’t have a School of Medicine GAGAN: Oh okay. Pause So I’d like to know, like, since this is a diversity class and our interview is based on that, my topic I chose is like, after 9/11, and actually even before, like the differences. I’ve noticed. But, I would like to know, like, what you have noticed. GASIM: Since I came here after September 11, immediately. In, I think, 2002. On a personal level, all my life in America on academic campuses and universities. Dealing with highly educated people. So, I don’t see it really that much personal. I...maybe sometimes a few things outside, but not that much. In the beginning, I see tight security screaming for us in the airports and stuff like that. Now, in the last 3 or 4 years, I don’t know if they removed me from the list or not but I don’t see it that much. I don’t see it that much. So. Personal. But yes, of course. ...especially in Arabian/Muslim American communities they feel that now that they became, they moved from what we call, they were like...before September 11 they were invisible. Like many other minorities. Okay? ...American eyes and very invisible in the public discourse. They were invisible in discussions and suddenly they moved from this invisibility to hypervisibility. And they came to be regarded as the ‘other’. GAGAN: They stuck out, like right after that. GASIM: Yes. GAGAN: They started noticing- Page 2 �GASIM: Yes, yes. GAGAN: “Oh they’re brown. They’re not Americans”. GASIM: (Not sure what he’s saying) And other groups too. Like Muslims, being considered to be..(Can’t figure this part out) GAGAN: Yeah, like seek(??)...yeah, seeks(??). Yeah, that’s who I am. And I’ve noticed, like we don’t wear turbans, but my dad’s friends wear turbans. So, because they wear turbans they thought they were Muslims. GASIM: Some of them think that, unfortunately. Because... GAGAN: Yeah, but it isn’t right, even if they were Muslims. GASIM: Yes, yes. GAGAN: Wearing, they… GASIM: But, I think this is like guilded by far association, like, because of the resemblance of the Taliban’s, or something like that. And it’s just also the ignorance of people sometimes. GAGAN: Yeah. Silence And I’ve noticed that, too, myself. That sometimes, if you-if people know about you, if you have close friends, they know about you. They’re more, what? Educated. GASIM: Yes! GAGAN: But, if there’s people who don’t have like Muslim friends, Indian friends, seek (?) friends...they won’t know the difference. GASIM: Absolutely. And studies showed that those who are Muslim have more federal views about Salam (?) and Muslim GAGAN: Yeah. GASIM: (…) than those who don’t have friends, yes. (...) GAGAN: Yeah, I was reading, or it was a, news? Or a show on-in PR, and they were talking about after 9/11 how Muslims were being treated. But, people that had friends, like white people who had friMuslim friends, they favorited them. They thought they were the nicest people. But, people that didn’t know anything about Islam or Muslim people, they basically hated them. GASIM: Yes. GAGAN: They thought they were ‘bad’. Page 3 �GASIM: Yes. Absolutely. GAGAN: So, they’re not educated about… GASIM: Yes. Silence GAGAN: What else do you feel like could change, should be changed or how can people be educated more? GASIM: America has this long tradition of isolationism. Ok? And I think it’s so deep rooted in the culture. For example, I teach classes about issues in political politics. And the first of the semester what I do, I always show pictures or photos of Kim Kardashian and I let the class talk about her. They know almost everything about her. And then another picture of Lindsay Lohan, and then a, Snooki, and I let the class talk like 15 minutes about these 3 people. they know almost who their husbands, boyfriends, what they do, when they went to jail, all this kind of information. And then I will show a picture of the British Prime Minister. GAGAN: Mhmm. GASIM: And nobody knows anything about him. GAGAN: Yeah. GASIM: So, basically, America’s for a long time been isolated here, even until of course September 11 happened and all (…) like, Bill Harper or like that, then they think that, okay well what happened in maybe Afghanistan or the Middle East might affect them here, too. So, that’s a big issue. Hopefully, education might help a little bit. This is why schools like Grand Valley requires you to take courses like yours. Diversity, global diversity, in order to educate the students about understanding diversity and other cultures. So, that is, that is, helpfulness of education. building more programs like this would help. the media, I’m not sure. I’m not sure that that could help. But, the U.S in general, moves toward more, I mean after…the demographic make-up in the country is going to be- change in the coming 50 years or 40 years. So that might force people to basically stand out and come to close contact with different ethnic groups. I mean in the long run. Maybe I’m optimistic. Brief silence GAGAN: But do you like, you mentioned, the media. You said that won’t help much. Why do you feel that? GASIM: the medi—the role of the media, I mean what they, I mean. Deep sigh I don’t know. I mean, of course, sometimes the media can play a role in what you call the normalization of certain ideologies, or the acceptance of a specific minorities life. For example, now many shows about gay couples, for example, okay? Trying to let the public at least, accept that reunion. In that area, that works very nice. (?) But, that impact would take a very long time and I don’t know if there is really, if the Page 4 �media is playing a very significant, constructive roles in this areas. I’m not sure about that. I’m not an expert in media, but this course sometimes shows the news and media outlets that focus on news and important news sometimes is not healthy. like Fox news or others and some do, some do a decent job. But, in general, (…………………) GAGAN: Have you noticed the difference between media here and media from different countries? GAGAN: Like, in the U.S, it’s just what they kind of want you to know, information. But, if you listen to BBC, they actually tell you a little more information about what’s going on in the U.S. and outside. Which sometimes, I feel that they kind of hide some stuff here. GASIM: Yeah that comes by us by omission. U.S. of course, has a long tradition of reporting about different countries and BBC has what I would consider, so far, a credible source for information for many countries. Like there is of course differences between reporting and commenting on the news ? so the BBC is doing a good job at reporting on what happened and, and, and reaching out to many people. And what they report, I don’t think they report from the British point of view. But American media tends to report from American prospective and, and basically what, what helps sometimes a political and (…..). And most of the (…) newspapers and media are controlled by conservative and reporters tend to be liberal. And like for example, some newspapers owned by conservatives, on current issues and they tend to be sometimes conservative, but in social issues they tend to be liberal because that is what most reporters are liberal. But, yes, I mean, they don’t have that, of course that long tradition like the BBC, for example. And sometimes people here like, to the right wing are so upset about, they’re disappointed about what you call the, the BBC, the PBS, for example. They think that they worry (……). So, I think that is, could be dangerous because the PBS to some extent, in my understanding is, similar to the BBC. public funded type of media. But, the BBC of course has that tradition and that respecting differences in Africa and the Middle East. And now of course we see new media coming from developing countries reversing the flow of information from North to South. Like in (...) which is challenging the Western dominance of media. Of information. GAGAN: So like, you mentioned earlier like at the airport security was a little more strict/is more strict for us, like, do you, when you go there or when you’re at the airport, do you feel like upset or angry? GASIM: No, I tend to be relaxed and smiling. Because otherwise I, I will, I fly a lot. I fly a lot when I came here for conferences. That’s like 3 or 4 times a year, at least. And, and I decided always to be smiling. These people are doing their job powerfully. And, and, and after all it’s for my safety. But, I remember that in 2002 they used to have microphones and this loud speaker. And they would always, they normally have this phrase, like they are going to select some people randomly. GAGAN: Mhmm. GASIM: And always I was selected randomly. [Laughs] GASIM: So, so that was then. I think from 2002 to 2004...Things changed I think when Bush was reelected. So then before his election you see all this kind of media, terrorist alerts. And Americans were constant attack of fear, there was like another September 11 coming and this. But suddenly after he was elected again... Page 5 �GAGAN: it slowed. (??) GASIM: Yeah I mean you hear that these colors and this . And, and I remember until 2004 all this abundance...used to talk about how they are safe and no major attack...and I was wondering if Obama would say the same thing. Like now, since now 4 years since Obama is now and no major attack in the U.S. So, it is interesting to see the things. GAGAN: Yep, [haha]. So do you feel like discriminated a--at all? At that? Like... GASIM: I mean I am not sure. I, of course, it is difficult to, basically, know the intent, ? GAGAN: If they are doing their job, but the way they treat you? The way they talk sometimes? Do you feelGASIM: of course they are not like, I mean at that time. Now, it is different from 2005 to now I don’t, I don’t really see that. many times they pass out additional screening. Many times. Rarely I was stopped actually. I see sometimes worried people being chased (laughs) and-and which is, I feel sorry for them, but at the same time I’m happy that it’s not me, ? So that has changed a lot. From 2002 to 2004 and 5, it was...One time I remember in particularGAGAN: Mhmm. GASIM: I miss a flight and then I have-I had a connection and I was going to a conference in New York. GAGAN: Mhmm GASIM: And in Kansas City, I remember I pass security and I was waiting and waiting because I missed my flight. And Kansas International Airport, Kansas City International Airport is not that big. So not so many people around and I think I was sitting for like 2-3 hours and suddenly a security agent came to me and asked me “Sir, I want to check your documents”. Even though I was just waiting for my flight. And if it were someone else he or she might be upset “Why?” “I’m not passing security, I already did that and I’m here waiting for my-” . And he asked me questions about where is my flight and how-why I’m waiting longer here. GAGAN: Suspecting you. GASIM: Yeah, so basically I show her my documents and I was fine. That happened to me in Kansas--the three incidents happened in Kansas City. One also, one--one time I was going from Kansas City to Manhattan where, Kansas, taking a small flight, where I did my second master. And there was a woman, American-Indian woman, from India. And she was selected and I was selected. The only, we are on a small flight, like maybe, 12 people? GAGAN: Oh and two brown people? [Laughs] GASIM: Yeah, so, she was selected and even though we came, we had already been screened from New York and we went through this process of, this screening. And we had our connection just in Kansas City, going to Manhattan. I mean there is no reason for us to, there is no security reason...it is just a Page 6 �connection! And actually in the gate there is security agents and they said from TSA and the man said, “I’m going to select people from random”. They used to test them like that. And then they choose her and they choose me. And she was extremely angry. And she threw the bag to them, like that, “You wanna take this? This is here for you”. And I was really surprised by her behavior. She’s American so she knows her rights. And I’m not American I’m (...) Anything can happen, anything can happen to me. Even though I was (...). So she was extremely angry, but I decided for a long time, by that time, not to let that affect me, as much. If I be angry. And actually, I remember the man, the security agent, he was very calm with this woman. he did not react angrily. Maybe they know that they are wrong, that what they do is wrong, but the woman has a right because there is no harm...and no need for this. GAGAN: Yeah, they shouldn’t. No need for violence. GASIM: Yeah. No need for her to be subject to screening. Cause she already passed it, she came from New York and just, in the waiting area going--taking another flight you don’t do that. That’s unheard of. GAGAN: Well, it’s kind of like you feel--don’t you feel a little weird when there’s other people already watching you and it’s only you or the Indian lady? GASIM: No, no. I mean myself—myself I...because usually if someone has a problem with me it is not my problem, it’s his problem. GAGAN: Yep. GASIM: And that doesn’t make me feel bad. Ok? I mean if someone is racist to me, or makes a racist comment--I remember one time I was, during having my, when I was doing my doctorate degree at University of Texas I was going (........) my meal, my meal there. And then a homeless white woman stopped me and asked me for money. I think she was maybe drunk, alcohol or something. I don’t have cash so I say can I buy a meal for them, but I don’t have cash. And I say to her, I don’t have money for you, I’m sorry. And she asks me if I’m a terrorist. [Pauses] And I was laughing because look at she. I was a doctorate student here (laughs) I’m paying my bills, I’m contributing, I’m teaching my own classes and you are a homeless woman here and not only begging for money to use it for drugs but begging me and thinking you are better than me and you call me a terrorist. And she followed me actually, I almost feel like this woman is going to cause some trouble. And-and I wasn’t rewarded because how people can take any kind of racket. So I went there and she followed me into the Burger King and I think they are used to her because they let us in and I told the cashier, I said, just to be like, “This woman is following me”. And the woman, because I did not respond negatively to her and the way she took that like out of weakness or something because I’m so (…) I don’t want to create unnecessary problems for myself. Not because I’m afraid of her . I just told the woman that this and she really, the cashier, she was African-American and she threatened her and she said “You either leave this property or I will call the police for you”. And the woman left. Another friend of mine, we used to work in Yemen together and he came, an exchange student like me from (…) student. And he came to Missouri. And his first two days in the U.S in Missouri (laughs) and he stayed in a motel looking for apartment, the school is starting next week and then he found an address and being near an area so he was just walking looking for this place to rent and he felt like he got lost because like sometimes you are disorientated after long flights. So he asked, like in our country, you ask anybody about directions. Page 7 �So he asked a man like do this street or where this is and the man said “You just wait here and I’ll show you, just wait”. And the man went and called the cops for him. [Pauses] So the man was waiting for this guy to help him. He wasn’t (…). And the police were nearby, they came, dispatch. And when they say, they ask him and they had all his documents with him, his passport and everything. And when they realized that he was an exchange student they felt very sorry, they told him that there are some people who they are not really that smart and they were all nice to him. The man wasn’t really shocked that he was just asking about an address and then they told him the man suspected that you are a terrorist or something. So, so things like this could happen. There are many, many examples of this happening. I remember one of the very funniest and saddest examples. I was told by someone I trust very much, he told me. There was a young Muslim couple, the woman had a scarf. And one time the neighbor came, an old lady, to visit them. The man was not there, the woman welcomed that old lady. And, she asked her a very strange question, she said, “Can I check your rooms? Can I see your rooms?” Usually as a guest you don’t do that. (laughs) GAGAN: Yeah, you don’t do that. GASIM: Yeah, so she—she lets her. Which indicates a nice woman; she lets her see the rooms. And after she checks all of the rooms, the kids’ rooms, and everything, the kitchen, everything, and she said, “Actually to be honest with you, I had a vision that you and your husband hijack an airplane and crash into my house. [Pause] And I called the FBI about that”. [Laughs] GAGAN: She really called the FBI?? GASIM: Yeah, yeah. So she was so concerned about that dream and because she saw this neighbor, this Muslim couple, and the police I think or the FBI, they told her, “We don’t act on people’s dreams”. So basically and she told him she’s really worried. She’s really thinking these people are preparing something like that in their homes, building something in her dream and that they hijack an airplane and . Attack and destroy her home. So they advise her why don’t you go visit them by yourself and see? (laughs) Gamal and Gagan talking at same time, laughing GASIM: And she followed their basically advice and she came to see for herself. If, fortunately that her dream did not come true. [Laughs] GAGAN: That’s weird though. GASIM: Yes, I was told this. So, things can be to that extreme where it’s easy to label people terrorist. Page 8 �GAGAN: Yeah, people usually…My dad owns a store and once in a while we get one customer who’s, if we refuse him, refuse to sell, like if they’re already a little drunk or something, we refuse to sell. And then they actually start getting all racist, mean. And one guy was like, “You terrorists and this that”. I feel real angry. GASIM: Yes, but your father I’m sure is calm. GAGAN: Yep. GASIM: Yeah, cause if you feel angry every time then you are not helping yourself. You are helping them, yes. GAGAN: Yeah, I mean. I really understand how everyone feels. GASIM: Yes. GAGAN: Then I also noticed, like like most of the students, like we look at younger kids, like my age, Indian kids, Arab kids, or any other foreign kids they don’t really get in trouble here. They’ll be like, the good kids. GASIM: Yes and many (….). They—they’re from hard-working families, they came, they built their lives from scratch. GAGAN: Yep. GASIM: And life, life in America for immigrants even if you are the kid because Americans don’t accept degrees from other countries. So it is very hard to see all of them, they have very impressive stories to tell about how they struggled to pay their bills and how they struggled to send their kids to college and, and their kids are hard-working kids and loyal to their families and they have these family values. So, this of course, yes. This America was built by these immigrants who are hardworking people. Yes. GAGAN: That’s what I was getting at but still that, by the color they think, oh their bad even though. the while kids are getting into trouble here, more fights and stuff but still its because they are brown, they are bad. GASIM: Yes of course we don't want to be like white kids are bad GAGAN: But we do GASIM: But I see your point that most of the immigrant kids are hard working, their parents motivate them to do well to go to better school and be a engineer and you want to be a doctor, right? GAGAN: Yeah GASIM: Do you want to be a doctor? GAGAN: Hmm yeah, I want. yeah I want to, yea that’s what I'm doing. GASIM: All my international students, all my like students coming from international background, like they want to be doctors. Some want to be in medical science, nothing them wants to be go for political Page 9 �science for media because that’s very important. If you go to hospitals, most of them are basically doctors are either foreign born or came from families, where their parents are also foreign born. GAGAN: Yup, and I have noticed that… GASIM: Yes yes, let me just check, if you don’t mind, the because I have class at three, if you don’t mind? GAGAN: No problem GASIM: If you don’t mind? (Prof. Gasim logins into his computer to check his schedule and his emails before class, as he says this the start sound of the computer could be heard also). GASIM: Oh OK. (here he says something which was very clear to hear). GAGAN: We still got some time? GASIM: I just, my class is jus like ten minutes, and I need just like aaaahhh aaahhh. GAGAN: Ten minutes? GASIM: How many questions do you have left? GAGAN: Just question about like, changes in the community you in. hmmmm GASIM: Actually I’m not in community, just fine. GAGAN: I mean.. GASIM: Not like American, living alone [hahahaha] GAGAN: Even here GASIM: Yeah hmmm GAGAN: You probably notice everyone working with you but like if you go to a grocery store or something like you were talking about the airport situation, like person infront of you is, im gonna use a White person again, and they are really nice talking to them but when its your turn, they just say ok its this much( talking about the cashier, not talking to him and just asking him to pay the total amount) GASIM: Hmmm, to be honest with you, no, its me personal. Sometimes it’s a, in some cases aaa, one time I went to the bank and I had unfortunate incident in a bank, just recently, jus a small bank I have an account, and I felt the lady there was lied to me. It is a long story, so I went out and I was really angry. Then I call, I called the a the bank and she answered, she told me she was manager. I know she wasn’t the manager, so I insisted the then I talk to the higher level headquarters nationally u know. It’s a national bank, a bank that has many branches nationwide and I told them what I need is two things, basically needed a apology from that branch because basically I feel there is discrimination and number two, I don’t want this to be happen to other persons. I know my rights and I can fight my rights but I don’t someone whos just know not much communication or have the time to follow up these things. And they really apologized, the manager of that bank called me the morning and apologized, the director of that region called me and apologized and I get a formal letter of an apology. Page 10 �GAGAN: That’s good GASIM: That is one thing sometimes here even like, one time here in department, I was here a faculty, there was a student, basically I was had to talk to her supervisor because of my accent or something I don’t know I’m the fucklty( sorry that’s how he pronounced it)I keeping let that happen. I keeping her( I did not understand what he said at this moment but it was only a sentence). I told her, I was very angry and I talk to her like I was very firm and wanted to make sure that there was nothing. Then she and another man I talk to him, he try to defend her, on a different lecture and left a message, message to the supervisor; I wanna talk to the head otherwise I going to rise this to the highest level in the school. Next morning, six o’clock in the morning, I check my voice message from home here and I found a message from da, the man in the beginning was defense about the girl, I told him look, if you still want to be defensive here, what I need is you to realize that this is wrong and to ask, to apologize for it. GAGAN: Yea GASIM: That’s what I want, I’m not hmmm if he feels that hmmm there is nothing wrong here, there is no point to continue the conversation. I’m go to fear until he realizes which side is wrong and after I said that he immediately apologized, more than once. So, you need to, because once they apologized they are wrong. GAGAN: They realized, yeah. GASIM: If they were not wrong, they would never apologize. So, that is I think, I mean this happened very few that I can tell but I feel sorry for people who were in… GAGAN: People that don’t English, cant explain or argue their side. GASIM: Yes yes, it doesn’t mean if you don’t speak English, it doesn’t me that you are not intelligent person. Sometimes, unfortunately people think that because you don’t speak their language, you are not smart or intelligent. GAGAN: Yeah yup. GASIM: And if your not cautions if you don’t speak the language, you like. Even they can make fun of you, those who don’t speak their language enough. And my life I spent my life, international student all my life. GAGAN: Yeah, you been traveling everywhere. GASIM: And always as a minority. So, I never lived as a majority [hahaha] in a place. So, that is, then you get a strong sense of what is justice, what is right and what is important. GAGAN: that’s how you become stronger. GASIM: Yes and you educate people about it, you get people like because they take us sometimes for granted. GAGAN: So, basically to end like most of this, some of discrimination is by educating everyone because lot of people that are racist, they are not educated about other people. Page 11 �GASIM: Sometimes with education, sometimes people know but they still insisted to act racist because of selfish economic interest, selfish political rights. So education is yes but you need to let people know they are wrong, you need to stand up for what is right and not just wait until it to happen to us. GAGAN: Yup GASIM: So if it happens to someone else, GAGAN: Yea we need to take a stand GASIM: Yes, I remember jus two weeks ago, I was in McDonalds. I was getting grading my papers and had my coffee. There was a homeless man, he was very nice and friendly and sometimes I talk to him. I saw him and I asked him if he if he if he wants me to buy him a lunch. And he said yea I can buy, then I went and ordered and then I left. Then they put the order in my table, they thought it was my order, so when I came he was not there, so I moved all the order in his place. Then I walk, like to have a break and I came back again. And then the manager came, she was a very nice young woman, asked me if I got my order, maybe they realized that there is not. I said, oh yeah and then to clarify things to her, I assumed that maybe the man took my order, so I’m saying no I bought this for him. Because she say me pay for it. GAGAN: Then she saw that the plate or tray with the other guy. GASIM: Yes, I mean he was not there when she came and asked me. I told her no, I bought this for him I just. I thought I clarified enough for her and then she left. Then also I walk again, the man came, finishing was eating. Then there was another woman, friend of his wife, his ex-wife, she saw him and she also bought him a salad like a lunch. I think the man was well before he became homeless. This homeless people also came from good background. Doesn’t mean they were born homeless. GAGAN: Yeah, yup. Some people go bank, bankrupt, so they don’t have any other choice. GASIM: Absolutely, this can happen to any of us in this country. So, anyways, the man came back. The man was little bit upset and so I ask him why, he ask can I talk to you? Because I was busy working. I said yes. He told me the manage came and insulted him basically talking why you beg people for food. (he says something here which wasn’t very clear, just one sentence not much). I was really offended by that, I tell him that no you never ask me for food, I never saw, you never bother anybody, you never beg for food. And he was dressed nicely and I said that is all, I’m going to talk to her. GAGAN: Hmm GASIM: So I went and I call her. I said, look I told her what happened, I told you, you asked me if I bought him this meal. This man never asked me for, I I said I think you really hurt his feelings. Yes, hes homeless but he is a decent human being, he has feelings and I think you owe him an apology. You need to go apologize to him. And she said she will do it but she was busy. After few minutes she came there, I was sitting, she came very nicely, she sat with him and said, I want to tell you something that I’m really sorry. The man moved by this, then she told him something, she made him laugh, I don’t know what they both talk about. Then the man look at me and said you talk to her and I said yes. But, my point here is so even the man was white, we need to stand up for justice. GAGAN: There is other kinds of discrimination not just because your from a different country, there is also like poor and rich.. Page 12 �GASIM: Economic bases, religious bases, ethnic basses, there is also based on color, based on linguistics, based on ethnic, color also comes into this gender bases, sexual orientation. I mean we might not approve peoples way of life but that is in this country at least. Everyone should have his dignity as a human being. Whatever background they came from and we need to stand up for that. GAGAN: Yup, definitely, we just did a 24 hour no judging exercise. It didn’t go so well for most people I think. I tried so hard not to judge anyone, so I think it’s a good exercise. I think more people should be involved in this, its hard. You start thinking why am I doing this, why is it so hard for me to not like judge someone. GASIM: I learned my lesson a lot not to judge people. Sometimes things can happen to us like, and when you live in different countries you see, you live that. i really have just, I need to do a few things. You can stop me if you need anything, another time we can continue our discussion anytime. GAGAN: Okay, that’s fine, no problem, thank you. GASIM: I hope this was helpful for what you’re doing? GAGAN: Yes this was, thank you very much. END OF INTERVIEW Page 13 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/05ac84ef3aa33330f9bea130eacd3932.mp3 d121eb090b52d5436a419548de1c3aa1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Gasim_Gamal Title A name given to the resource Gamal Gasim audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gasim, Gamal Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Singh, Gagan Description An account of the resource Gamal Gasim, assistant professor of Middle East Studies and Political Science, earned his PhD in political science from Texas Tech. He teaches Introduction to Middle East Studies, Middle East politics, and comparative politics. Before Grand Valley, he taught at Texas Tech, University of Wisconsin-Madison during the summers of 2006 and 2007, and at the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign and Beloit College during the summers of 2008 and 2009 respectively. He discusses how people who do not know anything about Islam or Muslims discriminate against them, and how the media plays a negative role in society in America. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-04-23 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/089e648bc2e9e83f40c1204617b390f2.pdf 8c7a9f6075cb78ab00d822fd63e9cbde PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Anna Fisk Interviewers: Zak Johnson, Andrew Guerkink, and Peter Braseth Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/26/2012 Biography and Description Anna Fisk was born and raised in Grand Rapids, Michigan. She is an advocate and activist. She discusses growing up being lesbian in a Christian household. Transcript JOHNSON: We are currently recording. GUERKINK: We are on the books. JOHNSON: Cool, forever. GUERKINK: Ok, so there are just a few things we have to get through. A little spew I have to say. So, My name is Andrew and I am here today with Anna Fisk it is February 16 the year 2012 ah and we are in grand valley's Kirkhof center here in Allendale Michigan. And we are going to talk about here experience here in West Michigan. so, could you, please, give us your full name. FISK: Ah, Anna Fisk. Anna Marie Fisk GUERKINK: And where and when were you born? FISK: I was born in Grand Rapids at Butterworth Hospital October 20th 1981. GUERKINK: And your parents, siblings, family? FISK: Names or? GUERKINK: Names, or whatever you like. FISK: My mother is Lou Ellen Fisk. My dad is Gene Fisk. Ah siblings, oldest is Kelly Fisk uh then Jeremy Fisk and then Elijah Fisk. We all have the same last name cuz of marriage and divorce reasons but [Laughter]. We're all Fisks. [Laughter] GUERKINK: And so we want to talk broadly about your experience in West Michigan, you were born here in Butterworth; I was born in St. Mary's so in West Michigan how do you define yourself? What is Page 1 �your identity? FISK: In West Michigan well, I am and advocate and activist firstly...at this point in my life anyway. I'm a lesbian. I am white I am privileged, I am working class. GUERKINK: Do you feel like, the things you described those are the things you see yourself as, in this area when people look at you do they see the same things? Do you believe that? FISK: I think they do, actually. Maybe because my hair, I like to do fun things with my hair I always have. I used to dye it all different colors when I was younger. I can't tell you how many times I’ve been called sir. Which I'm like? But throughout my life except when I had long hair but I cut it short when I was 16. And mostly it happens from people who are highly intoxicated and probably living on the street. I correct them or they see my face and they say sorry. so I think that it's kind of obvious and people are like, "she must be a lesbian." I present more masculine than feminine probably, and it’s obvious that I white and therefore privileged. I don't know if working class is all written on me, but maybe my values or something. GUERKINK: So you talk about your phase of doing things with your hair when you first cut it off. Sort of when, you are seen by other people, they say, "oh she's a different girl" cuz you like to different things with your hair. Was there a point in your life when you were like, "hey I'm totally different from others around me because I wanna cut all of my hair off and go something crazy?" FISK: Absolutely, especially coming from a rural place. I went to Tri-Counties Schools, quite rural, literally surrounded by corn fields. It's on the borders of Malcolm, Newaygo, and Kent counties so it's... I mean there were so many dirt roads when I was going to high school. so let's see, I came out when I was 16. It was during the next years or so that I cut off my hair. It was reflecting my inner feelings of feeling different. My clothing style didn't really change much. I guess you could say very tomboy. I was always athletic looking. I did start dying it really like platinum. I even shaved it a couples times when I was 17/18/19. JOHNSON: Demi Moore FISK: And that was cool back then, and I did not look cute. GUERKINK: It’s just so funny, I don't wanna get too personal but my sister did the same things, she had her phase of platinum and cut really short and its just funny because you do have those feeling inside and you wanna get them out and so i wanna stay on topic with you and go with when you were going through those phases. Were there people in your life around you who encouraged you to develop who you are and your identity and embrace the outward expression of what’s inside? FISK: No. [Laughter]. My family was and still is, I mean a little background. JOHNSON: Yeah, please I'd like to hear about it. FISK: They I grew up in the best way to describe it is Pentecostal tradition. Christian. a lot of shouting raising your hand in church a lot of worship and literally people doing like things that outsiders would come in and say, "what the hell are you doing?" right. Like, "what are you doing right now?" When I was Page 2 �little, I would sit and draw during church cuz it was like 3-4 hours long. so that was my religious upbringing. And I was actually quite involved in church. I mean we went to Pentecostal church when I was growing up and then we started going to Free Methodist Church because my mom's family went there so we wanted to be close to them or something. She also played piano also at all the churches we went to so they need pianists and so she went to the Free Methodist Church which was quite mundane compared to the Pentecostal churches. And I became quite active in the youth group there I was like a pre-teen and I was like a teenager it was very religious and I say religious because I really bought into the religion part of it. And I kinda developed by own spirituality from that also and started going to a different church called, Bella vista church by Rockford. I started going there when I was like 16. Anyway back to the original question. My family, I don't know. They didn't condone it, they said, or anything but they're very, very loving people. and my mom is very like very emotional and, (of her mother) "I'm very emotionally connected to my children, let's have a heart to heart talk and be honest with each other." And my dad actually worked 3rd shift most of my life so he was kinda absent honestly throughout most of my life I did really spend a lot of time with him he would uh work all night and then sleep all day, get up, have dinner, watch TV, take a nap, and go to work. That was it. And the weekends he was in the garage. I mean, the most he ever said to me when I first came out was, "ah, I kinda noticed you were a lesbian" I was like ok cool. "ah, ok I m gonna go work on some cars." [Laughter] and I was having my own internalized homophobia feelings and really just strugglin' and they didn't really offer to like help, necessarily, but "oh maybe you should go to therapy" because that was the only way, "go to therapy." So I could be like fixed or I could fight the desire and still have a "normal" heterosexual life. So, I mean, they weren't like were kicking me out. For a lot of teenager the coming out process you may as well, its almost better, if your parents or guardians are like, "well just leave then" because then you're leaving this place where they aren't accepting you and they're thinking things about you. GUERKINK: You know where you stand. FISK: Right. It's almost like so many things are unspoken and they're thinking so many things and there talking to each other about things. And my mom has a large family and I know she's calling every one, "Oh feel bad for me because my daughter is gay." So they were really, I mean, they knew that I was like this wacky teenager before I came out and I was always like the crazy teen out spoken and did weird things. So one time, when I did shave my head and I was a little bit older and I had actually kinda moved out but not really I was 17 it didn't really work out that well, I had shaved my head and moved back home and my dad was like, "look please don't shave you head again." [Laughter] and so I was like, "cool, ok I won't shave my head again." I mean there was really no encouragement. GUERKINK: So, no encouragement from home, but no one really discouraging you from being yourself it wasn't as if someone was telling you, "look you have to completely change who you are or else we are not going to love you." Was that, you don't paint that out to be particularity positive, but was that positive for you? At least you knew people still loved you, even if people didn't talk about it? FISK: I don't know, I mean I've struggled with it for some years. I've been out for like 14 years now and I don't know if it's like I don't know if it's worse to live with that and like almost like I condone because I am still participating and active in their lives i don't know its about love ta that point people use live as a masking of hate. to cover it up is like the white elephant. Even in general when people are commenting, "I don't care what you don you in the bedroom i still love you." Well it does matter because its not about sex it's about loving someone. It's likes saying racist doesn't exist because we love each other. And the fact that they never really did their own research or got books-and I could suggest books about being gay and being Christian and how to deal with having a gay son or daughter- when ur a Christian or Page 3 �something. Go to a PFLAG meeting or something like that, they never, no. JOHNSON: So what is your relationship like with your mom after coming out? FISK: Well m, I mean my mom and I have always been really close. I guess, we always had a lot of fun together. We'd laugh and go shopping. I was the only kid who would love to go shopping so we did that all the time. And just crack up about things and just laugh for hours on end. And that part continued, we still kinda but, there was always this tension after i came out. there still kind of is there's been some pretty good breakthroughs in the past couple of years only I think we kinda didn't talk about it much. I would try to talk about who I was dating or something and she would kinda like not really respond so it definitely strained it quit a bit. I went through so many years where I struggle with, if i should talk to my parents because maybe they're not saying, "screw you don't bring your partner home" m, I don't know it did change. GUERKINK: You talk about your deep spirituality and you talk about suggesting books to read for your parents to sort of balance your faith and your identity was that a struggle to get to get to a good place and was it a struggle to get to that point? FISK: I am in a fantastic point. GUERKINK: You seemed like it. FISK: It took me a long time and i struggle tremendously and I struggled for many years with it. Initially after I came out other than my family or she needs therapy. I, myself, put a lot of pressure to change. I did not really know what being gay meant. I was 16 I had like boyfriends but they were not sexually active. It's all for show then usually or it was when i was a teenager. Just, having my first girlfriend we were very much in love and it was about loving each other and then of course sexual discovery and we would back and forth, breaking up, getting back together, and then we have to fight our urges and still be best friends. Of course it doesn't work out like that. GUERKINK: How long was the back and forth? FISK: It was at least a year. It was quite a bit of time. And then she went to the same church that I had started going to, Bella Vista. I told her, "why are you following me? we're supposed to be separate and not do this." And then [Laughter] I got involved with the youth group there and made some friends. Disclosed to my small group that i was struggling, "my struggle" we'd pray about it and things and then I had like this, its' so weird to think about it know being so far removed from it part of myself and that community but, I went with the youth group leader and this other women and this interpreter and she went through this booklet called, "Breaking the Bondage" it like a 12 step literal; I used to have it before I-I think I burned it. You walk through this steps where you disclose stuff and it's kinda weird, they have get rid of the demonic spirits living inside of you. After I did that, it was supposed to be cured and obviously it didn't work so I kind of stopped being as active and became really angry with my first girlfriend and she was following me there, so I was like, "well I'm m not going to go there." So I started getting involved in other things teenagers do. Started to party and began to ignore my spiritual part. I remember one night, and that was when I moved out, I lived in what we called the, "drug house" in Cedar with my older friend. He got married and then his wife left him after that. We know now that he had schizophrenia, we didn't' know that at the time. So we had this little house and a bunch of us lived there and it wasn't terrible but it was bad. Everyone was like always smoking weed and I didn't really Page 4 �smoke... Andrew/JOHNSON: You did not have to, you probably had a contact high. FISK: That what I liked about it, just watch Pokeman and get super high or like, "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas." so I was living there and like a bunch of people and partying going on and I was like I don't wanna be here. So it was Thursday night and I was like, "oh, I'll go check out the youth group." It was kind of a large crowd there and you could stand in the back and blend in-or so I thought. I was standing in the back hanging out just, "strugglin'" and the youth leader, what was her name? Denise, oh by the way she works, I believe, at Mar's hill last time I checked, just an FYI. I like to call people out when I can cuz she a pretty horrible person. So, she pulls me aside, randomly found me, I was there for like 3 minutes and she taps me and starts to talk to me. So, she pulls me in this room and sits me down. All of the sudden my small group leader's there and someone else and her were like sitting around the table and I'm like, "what is going on" and she was like basically, "the pain you made us go through and all of this stuff and you put us through this stuff and your not changing and you obliviously don't have the desire to change and your negatively impacting the youth group." I was like, "First of all, I haven't been here for a while and second I'm not that important like not many people know me because I've not been there for a while." She says, "I'm not welcomed to any youth group events." I could still go to the big people church, and I was like, well, now way because no kid wants to go to that. And I was like so floored. Totally unexpected, caught off guard. I came there for refuse seeking refuge and they literally kicked me out. I mean I had to leave, they watched me leave. I got in my car and that was like as close I've ever come to just like killing myself quite frankly. It was, it highly impacted my emotional state. obviously I didn't. Andrew/Zak/BRASETH: Thankfully FISK: I just went back and to the party house and just sat there and whatever. So ya that was pivotal and then after that i didn't go to church anymore. I didn't seek fellowship with other Christians or anything kind of started to really--and I'm almost thankful for that moment because it really made me seek my own answers. JOHNSON: I'm sure you're really mad at God at this point. FISK: I was very much so like why? JOHNSON: Exactly you went back to this church to find refuge and find support and the one place you thought you'd go you saw the opposite. FISK: Yah, I was rejected and at that point I still believed in a Christian God and Jesus Christ, he's my Savior and all the principles I grew up with. But I was like I need to start doing this myself and really find the answers and forget what everyone else says... ANDREW, JOHNSON: Mhhm right FISK: But I’m like wow I need to start doing this myself and really finding these answers for myself and stop just listening to what everyone else says because that is quite ramped in the Pentecostal church to just listen to what the pastor says, and just go along with that. So I just started reading books, I found a book by Mel white, he used to write speeches and ghost write for people like Jerry Fawell actually, and Page 5 �pat Robertson and even- he’s a gay man, even after he came out he did write a couple of things for not jerry but I think maybe pat after he was out as a gay man, he's a reverend, he started a group called Soulforce, and they actually came to west Michigan a while ago, they are a non violent, direct action against spiritual violence against the LGBT community, he was like my hero for a very long time I read his book but I can’t remember the name, but it was very inspirational, and it sort of helped me to kind of look at things differently, what is this interpretation, what does this mean, obviously levitical code is all outdated it’s all old testament, so I going through the new testament, what does Paul mean, Corinthians, Romans I think people are surprised when people find out that I have a lot of knowledge about the bible and things JOHNSON: right FISK: because I don’t just readily go talking about it, so I kind of went through that phase, and then I started to get very angry with my parents and that’s when I was like I didn’t know if could talk to them, they are not listening to me they are totally rejecting me, even though they say they love me, and I can come over when ever I want, or hang out, it’s the principal of it JOHNSON: right FISK: so I went through that for quite some time, I tried not be gay a couple of times. During that time also, JOHNSON: what do you mean by that FISK: well, I tried – I know try not to be gay – [Laughter] GUERKINK: so far FISK: I was quite gay still [Laughter] but uh, trying to have a boyfriend and seeing if I could lead heterosexual life with a man. Zak right FISK: that didn’t JOHNSON: how did that make you feel when you tried to fight these – FISK: it, (exhales) it causes so much turmoil, having internalized homophobia is like talk about having a demon inside you, like having this turmoil GUERKINK: you need that 12 step program FISK: all the time, yeah, I mean just constant axiety, and rejection of your true self and covering it up, and playing roles because what they tell you, men and women have these roles, so you sort of try to be this role JOHNSON: try to make yourself fit in FISK: right, and just maybe dress more feminine, the shit the American family association tells you to do. Page 6 �JOHNSON: nuclear family, 2.3 children GUERKINK: yeah, the “bob” and a dress FISK: yeah and that lasted about 2 seconds and I was like JOHNSON: no way FISK: First of all this guy who was trying to like date was a complete asshole All: [Laughing] FISK: So and I actually knew him from Bellavista, and we like met somewhere at like Mars Hill or something. Cause I went to Mars hill for like 2.2 seconds. JOHNSON: A hot second GUERKINK: [Laughing] FISK: And actually I believe they are moving towards being an affirming church anyway, even though the Devo’s go there, or did, anyway, that’s a side note JOHNSON: Yeah, I read the Time article about Rob Bliss, he is very interesting FISK: Yeah, yeah he is, anyway I went there for like a hot second and I saw this guy and I was was like “oh this must be like divine intervention” [Laughter]. And so we like, we went to this Joyce Meyer conference together. And GUERKINK: Sighs JOHNSON: Who is Joyce Meyers? FISK: She a televangelist, basically, huge, huge, like worldwide following, and she’s a pretty funny lady, she’s southern, she has an accent, she has funny stories, and she’s really like quirky and people like her. She talks about abuse a lot so a lot of people can relate to her or something, or like overcoming an obstacle. And there was and I still really liked worship music, just because I still like music in general JOHNSON: Its good music FISK: Ah, the group from Australia, ah, can’t think of it know, anyway this woman Darlene Check, who wrote “Shout to The Lord” big in the 90’s, her group, her worship group was there and that was the only reason I wanted to go. So I was like oh sweet concert. GUERKINK: [Laughs] JOHNSON: [Laughs] FISK: Anyway and him and I went and by the end of that trip I was like “eff you, you suck”. JOHNSON: [Laughing] Wow Page 7 �GUERKINK: [Laughing] FISK: It was my birthday too. And he was just a complete asshole GUERKINK: Oh, awesome. JOHNSON: Sweet FISK: And then we had a conversation in my living room and he, well somehow we were kind of talking about sex, and he was like “oh yeah, well if you didn’t want to I would expect something else ya know”. And I was like well that ain’t happening. So see ya JOHNSON: Hooooo! sounds like a nice fellow FISK: Yeah he’s a great guy, great Christian guy GUERKINK: Yeah he sounds solid, not to judge your character. All: [Laughing] FISK: Anyway I didn’t have sex with him, he didn’t get what he was going for. Eventually I found out that [sex] was basically his motive. GUERKINK: Wow FISK: And after all that happened, I was like ok, I’m seriously super gay here All:[Laughing] FISK: Let’s just like get on with it, then I really started to go into the acceptance process I think JOHNSON: How long did that take, you came out when you were 16? FISK: Right JOHNSON: And you went through out these pretty formative years that were like, “maybe I’m not gay, maybe I can try and not be gay, but well no I am gay”. So what type of span in years are we talking to you finally saying “I’m gay, I love it, and I’m gonna go with it”? FISK: Let’s see (long pause), probably until maybe I was 23? I think JOHNSON: Took a while FISK: So quite a while, of back and forth JOHNSON: So 7 years GUERKINK: It’s not that long. Page 8 �FISK: Yeah it’s, yeah, having dysfunctional relationships because of it and that after I started really having meaningful, functional, long lasting relationships after that as well. JOHNSON: Great BRASETH: Could you tell me a little bit more about your childhood, just not specifically anything, but just general things you would like to talk about. FISK: Yeah, let’s see, well I grew up in a rural area, I loved where I lived it was a small town in the 80’s and you could run up to the party store, I would just run over there. You could run around without having fearing that something is going to happen to you. Ride your bikes all over town and go places. I really enjoyed my childhood and my friends. And then we moved to Grand Rapids for about a year and a half when I was in like third grade and fourth grade? I did not do well at all. JOHNSON: No? Big change FISK: Not at all, I became like severely depressed, missed like tons of school, they couldn’t figure out what was wrong with me, like my stomach hurt all the time. And eventually they took me to a psychiatrist or something and tried to give me medication but I would, I didn’t really eat that much so I would just like throw it up because it would upset my stomach. Apparently I found out later that my parents were having a really rough time as well, in their marriage. So like all this horrible shit happened when we moved to Grand Rapids so promptly moved back GUERKINK: [Laughing] JOHNSON: [Laughing] FISK: But we moved like out in the country as opposed to moving in town and I was like “oh this is great I’m going to be better here this is a great place”. And so, I had a fantastic time at that house it was a like an old school house JOHNSON: Cool FISK: We had friends that had horses JOHNSON: Nice FISK: It was a really good experience; I think my childhood for the most part. BRASETH: Could you tell me more about your family, not necessarily your parents but siblings anyone else you were close to. FISK: Yeah, I’m the youngest of 4. GUERKINK: hmph (sigh) FISK: My sister is like 11 or 12 years older than I am and then my brother Jeremy is a year younger than her. And then my brother Elijah and I are 3 years apart. so the dynamics were kind of weird. JOHNSON: Two and two Page 9 �FISK: My sister got stuck babysitting us a lot which she apparently resented JOHNSON: Mhmm FISK: Which she hated, she, she was quite rebellious, and got pregnant when she was 15 and had her first child when she was 16 and I was like 5 so my niece and I are like 5 years apart which kind of cool JOHNSON: That’s crazy FISK: Because I never had a younger sibling JOHNSON: Yeah that’s awesome FISK: Yeah well she ended up marrying the man of that child and he was extremely abusive to her so, they had another child, a few years later or something and she basically lived through hell and finally when he nearly choked her to death she finally left him JOHNSON: Thank God! FISK: Yeah and she came to live with us after that, her and this kids which was great, I loved it I loved having my niece and nephew around and I would babysit them, I was babysitting them when I was like 9 JOHNSON: Wow your grew up fast FISK: We were all very close, so they lived with us and that was great, especially because my dad worked third shift and my mom was always quite lonely so she, we just loved it. So it was my sister her to children, myself and my brother Elijah who was in high school at the time and my parents that lived in the house. My brother was signed up to go to the all night like basketball thing at the youth group JOHNSON: Like a lock in FISK: Yeah, a lock in and my sister volunteered to take him, it was like 10 or 11 at night, to go meet up with his friends and it was around Christmas time, she was going to bring him and come back and then we were all going to wrap like presents so my mom and I were getting the little kids in bed and are like popping popcorn. And all the sudden we get a phone call. Apparently on their way, they drove, or like a truck with those big headlights on top of it GUERKINK: Mhmm FISK: Had the headlights on and she was like messing with the radio and when she looked up she was blinded and spun off into the ditch and hit a tree. Luckily she like flew out of the door. It was a sweet car, it was beautiful 89 Monte Carlo, it was burgundy it was beautiful, and so like the big door flew open, and like some how she flew out. My brother like braced himself by doing this (acted out how her brother had braced for impact) and it impacted a tree on her side and it was completely crushed in. and he was like somehow safe, except he was like cut up really bad and his shoes came off for some reason All: [Laughs] FISK: He always remembers that he’s like “I didn’t have any shoes on and it was like winter” Page 10 �All:[Laughs] FISK: And they were in this swamp area, and so got out of the car and he could hear her like moaning and he’s like “oh, stay here” he was all bloody and he said “stay here I’ll go and get help” and the nearest house was probably a quarter mile away. JOHNSON: Oh my gosh FISK: So all this is going on, somebody, I don’t know, he eventually found some a woman’s house and knocked on her door and they called my mom and called the ambulance and everything and so my mom was just like “oh my god oh my god” and I was like what’s happening? JOHNSON: Right FISK: And I was in like 5th grade or something and she just like threw some clothes on and got in my older brothers, his, one of his cars was there for some reason even though he didn’t live there she didn’t really know how to drive it, but she like was smashing gears All: [Laughs] FISK: Like got to the site around the same time the volunteer fire people, because the nearest ambulance is like forever away JOHNSON: Right FISK: And some I’m just like there with the children and she like “I’ll call you or whatever” and there were no cell phones. My sister had broken her neck completely; it was like side by side and thankfully my brother didn’t touch her or move her when she was on the ground because that probably would have killed her. So she was in critical care for some time they had to like put her head in traction, bring it up set back on her neck JOHNSON: Like the halo FISK: Fuse it, yeah, and her spine was swollen but there was on spinal damage. GUERKINK: That’s good. FISK: Like I don’t know how she survived that. JOHNSON: Yeah, grace of god. FISK: Yeah and her lungs, her lung was punctured and stuff, she was on the verge of dying for quite some time. So that was pretty traatic for everyone. And I admire her so much now, and she went through another horrible relationship and divorce it wasn’t physical abuse but it was every other kind. JOHNSON: Yeah FISK: And she got out of that relationship and has been single ever since, we’ve actually grown quite close we would go to her son’s, my nephew’s football games together, we are pretty close now, and I’m close with both her children they are like my siblings. That is her story Page 11 �JOHNSON: She can walk and everything. FISK: Oh yeah, she is fine. JOHNSON: Oh my gosh FISK: She just has like a big scar, and she kind of turns like her whole body [Laughing] JOHNSON: Right FISK: We kind of make fun of her for it. JOHNSON: That’s unbelievable. FISK: Yeah she’s amazing, the fact that she is still living without having had any counseling or anything you know what I mean, and has just gotten through life in general so yeah, she’s, I admire her a lot, and then my other siblings, Jeremy married his high school sweet heart, and they have a two kids, he’s a mechanic. And Elijah got married when he was younger they have like 4 kids, they all actually live by each other GUERKINK: That’s cute FISK: Yeah like in a cul-de-sac, Jeremy lives a few miles away but both Kelly and Elijah and my parents live in like a cul-de-sac GUERKINK: [Laughing] JOHNSON: [Laughing] FISK: We call it the Fisk commune. GUERKINK: [Laughs] JOHNSON: [Laughs] That’s awesome! FISK: Yeah, Elijah, I don’t have anything big about Jeremy he’s cool, he’s whatever. GUERKINK: [Laughs] JOHNSON: Right FISK: Elijah has had the most trouble with, and has been the most vocal about my being gay. GUERKINK: Uh huh JOHNSON: Okay FISK: And he has condemned me, he has said he has felt uncomfortable with me around his children which I promptly said a big “eff you” and Page 12 �JOHNSON: Right FISK: You better not say that to me every again, like you… JOHNSON: Like you’re going to turn them gay or something? FISK: Right yeah, I don’t know what I’m like, what do you even mean JOHNSON: Sigh FISK: That doesn’t even make any sense. JOHNSON: No it doesn’t, there is nothing there FISK: And my dad was even like “what do you mean, what the hell are you talking about” GUERKINK: [Laughs] JOHNSON: Right FISK: Him and I don’t really speak, we haven’t for quite some years JOHNSON: Really? FISK: Even since he said that basically which was, man I don’t know, maybe 5 years ago JOHNSON: Really, so 5 years? FISK: We just say “hi” and “bye” GUERKINK: The only one in your family that’s like that FISK: Yeah nobody well, most of us can’t stand him too much, because he has a big mouth JOHNSON: Ah, I know the feeling FISK: He just says things without thinking JOHNSON: Yeah that one too FISK: He is very self righteous JOHNSON: Yeah I know the type FISK: Yeah, you can’t even do anything with him JOHNSON: You can’t crack the shell at all, not, there is nothing FISK: You can’t reason with him Page 13 �JOHNSON: No FISK: You can’t, they just like to get a rise out of you JOHNSON: yeah, it’s difficult I’m sure, because he is your brother. FISK: Right JOHNSON: Your closest sibling too so… FISK: Right, he always hated me growing up though JOHNSON: Yeah? FISK: He really despised me [Laughs] I really never knew why. JOHNSON: Because you’re the baby, that’s why, because you’re the youngest. FISK: Yeah JOHNSON: You got everything FISK: Well he did though JOHNSON: [Laughs] GUERKINK: [Laughs] FISK: That’s why I’m so confused, my mom seriously, he is the baby. JOHNSON: [Laughs] GUERKINK: [Laughs] FISK: My mom babied the shit out of him. JOHNSON: [Laughs] GUERKINK: [Laughs] FISK: Serious, my mom still does so… JOHNSON: Yeah FISK: He’s just odd, he pisses my sister off on a regular basis so… GUERKINK: Hmm, great FISK: Yeah Page 14 �GUERKINK: Was it just always like that though, all throughout your childhood, just back and forth back and forth FISK: He was always like beating up on me, and I was like a really small kid and we would kind of play together when we were younger, or whatever and then he started to just like not ever want to do anything with me and the most interaction we had when I was a teenager is he would like drive us to school, and he was always crashing cars JOHNSON: [Laughs] GUERKINK: [Laughs] FISK: We were in an accident together once, he’s had a lot of accidents. JOHNSON: Yeah FISK: Yeah we didn’t really interact, I tried to live with him, because it was closer to where I was working, him and his wife and their first child, and that lasted about 2 months. GUERKINK: Super successful there FISK: Yeah, yeah, that’s when he was still drinking, like he is not allowed to drink per his wife because he turns into even more of an asshole GUERKINK: If you can imagine FISK: So yeah, yeah he, he JOHNSON: A lot working there, a lot working there FISK: Yeah I remember one time he said, he was drinking and I don’t know we were playing games or something and he’s like “yeah, well I know how lesbians have sex, I figured it out”. I’m like “oh did you? You’re a creep shut up.” JOHNSON: Sighs, right GUERKINK: Sighs FISK: I’m like “why are you thinking about that” JOHNSON: Yeah. FISK: “Your sister is a lesbian that’s a little weird.” JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah GUERKINK: That’s a little messed up, kind of gross FISK: And don’t say that to me and don’t ask me questions Page 15 �JOHNSON: Yeah, yeah, right, right GUERKINK: So you guys, I forget how old, older is he from you? FISK: 3 years. GUERKINK: 3 years, so you guys didn’t really go to high school much with him, I’m assuming? FISK: No, actually he, we were both born in October, he started school when he was 4 and I started when I was 5, so I was in 8th grade when he was a senior. GUERKINK: Okay. FISK: So he graduated when he was like 17. GUERKINK: So in high school you were just all by yourself no siblings? FISK: I was, yeah well I dropped out the beginning for my junior year. GUERKINK: Ok FISK: I was very active in softball and basketball most of my life, I very much excelled at softball and probably could have gotten a… JOHNSON: Scholarship FISK: Like a full ride scholarship had I completed high school, our teams always went to like district regional’s and all that. GUERKINK: Sneezes ZAK/FISK: Bless you! FISK: So, but that still, that alone wasn’t enough incentive for me to stay especially after I came out. JOHNSON: Did you go back to get your… FISK: Yeah I went back and got my GED when I was like 19, (burps) excuse me, then started at [GR] CC for several years, then I came to Grand Valley and finished up. END OF INTERVIEW Page 16 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bc6b402cfe8fffdb9cc146da00bd4013.mp3 7d39dfa444bb5e664e7282a445b76403 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Fisk_Anna Title A name given to the resource Anna Fisk audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fisk, Anna Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson, Zak Guerkink, Andrew Braseth, Peter Description An account of the resource Anna Fisk was born and raised in Grand Rapids, Michigan. She is an advocate and activist. She discusses growing up being lesbian in a Christian household. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Lesbians--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-26 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9e6f2978002bff3baeb2ae9312e1a46b.pdf 617dba204c4c1ee3672ff755b1994aec PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Robby Fischer Interviewers: Jordan Sayfie Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 10/10/2011 Biography and Description Robby Fischer is a Grand Valley State University Alumni. He talks about his experiences with activism in West Michigan. Transcript SAYFIE: K. My name is Jordan Sayfie and I am here today October 10, at noon, with Rob Fischer at Grand Valley downtown campus we are here to talk about your experiences with activism in West Michigan could you start by telling me a little bit about yourself, where you come from? FISCHER: Yea, I’m originally from outside of the Flint area that’s called flushing Michigan. I was raised there and I came over to Grand Valley in 2007 to start my 4 year degree. I studied liberal studies at Grand Valley. Yea and so I just finished up that degree this past spring and then over the summer I was just living in Ann Arbor, playing music and packing vegetables for a living but yea that was what the summer was and since the beginning of fall I’ve been doing a lot of work with Occupy Wall Street stuff. Starting in September I went out there. For a week and a half and upon returning from that I just moved with a lot of great people over in Muskegon and... Yeah and that’s where I’m at now. SAYFIE: Very cool. I gotta ask you a little bit more about picking vegetables, what was that? Where were you doing that? FISCHER: It was an organization, or I don’t know if it was a business or an organization or one of those in between type deals. But it’s called (inaudible) what their mission is to make local vegetables produced in the winter time. We get local vegetables and local produce from around the Ann Arbor area. .. I think most of all of it is within a 50 mile radius and we process it and by process it I don’t mean we add chemicals. I mean we cut it up and make it edible and we put it into small packages and we freeze it. It’s essentially a CSA for winter time. A CSA, being a community support of agriculture. Where people come and basically get a subscription to (inaudible) and once a month they come pick up their boxes of produce and then they have lots of frozen produce to get through the month. SAYFIE: Very cool, that’s sweet. How did you get into that? Page 1 �FISCHER: I think I found the job on craigslist actually. Yea and... It was cool because it’s all about local food and I was yea and if I’m going to be doing something to make money I might as well be doing something that kinda supports local farmers. .. And it turned out being a really fun job. I was ... yeah.. I really d the people I worked with and it was really, really repetitive stuff picking stems off of broccolis for 3 hours a day. And then spending the rest of the day shucking corn or something. It was still really fun just to get to know some people around there. SAYFIE: And that was just kind of a summer thing? FISCHER: Yeah that was just a summer thing yup. SAYFIE: Alright. How would you describe your own identity? FISCHER: Oh jeez, yeah that’s kinda a big question. I think that there are some things that play into it so go over some of the huge parts of my idea I guess. One huge part is music. I’ve been a musician for a really really long time now. Since I was a kid and I think that yeah sometimes it can be hard for me to explain it exactly where I stand on politics where I stand on activism or just try to figure out those things philosophically. And what not but I think for me, music is the way to express myself even with the uncertainties express myself in a way and say “this is me” I’m this is exactly who I am. And not have to worry about being so particulate about it and have to worry about messing it up because yeah if you’re just making music you can really mess up. Yeah so that’s always been whats really closest to me another big thing that’s always been a part of me is spirituality. I was raised in the Christian faith and all through growing up that was something that was a part of me. .. And it still is and it’s ... the way that... that faith looks with it itʼs the way that I describe it and its my doctrinal thinking or my theology has changed a whole, whole, whole lot. And it’s way different then it was when I was just a you know, in junior high or whatever. But yeah that’s something that’s still very (inaudible) it’s yeah just an acknowledgement of the spiritual realm and its importance on my life and the importance of who I am. Yeah and I think another big part of my identity is... is that I’m Paraguayan. I am from South America. .. I was adopted. This is something that growing up it didn’t mean all that much to me I kinda just didn’t think too much of it. But I guess growing up and realizing that that’s a part of who I am and that’s something that I really want to be proud of and not try and hide is the fact that I am a person of color. And the fact, the different... the different things that that means to me. For instance coming over here .. I heard about Colbus day stuff on the radio and it was .. Colbus day stuff was something I would have never thought about in grade school or whatever. But I think now that Iʼve really started to mesh and realize that the Paraguayan part is really part of who I am south American is really part of who I am. and its Colbus day and things that take on a whole different meaning where yeah I could kind of identify more with these people my ancestors who have been oppressed for hundreds and hundreds of years by colonialism and that type of thing. And yeah and just kinda being able to acknowledge that my alliances are with those people, are with my ancestors in that way. It really just brings a whole new meaning a whole new urgency to any sort of justice work that I do. And yeah so. SAYFIE: Did you, being adopted did you ever feel a disconnect from your cultural background? Page 2 �FISCHER: Yeah I think kind of subliminally I did. I think it was more just something.. where it was never really talked about so I never really, I never really was, never really thought to be identified as a person of color. I was raised by white parents; I was raised in a white culture basically. So I, I have dark skin and dark hair but I can pass as white, and so I just kinda learn to assimilate into that. It was never really discussed but I guess now what Iʼm learning recently in the last few years the importance of thinking about that and yeah holding that as a part of who I am and being proud about that. SAYFIE: Very cool, was there any particular moment growing up or now that you felt you were treated differently because of your beliefs? FISCHER: Yeah I think that.. yeah.. growing up as a Christian I kind of had a lot of Christian beliefs growing up where very main stream. Didnʼt really divert that much from mainstream Christianity but more lately more in the last 10 years or whatever Iʼve definitely had a lot of revamping of what I believe in that area. And .. yeah that can definitely start to get kind of hairy when you start to realize at least for me I see Jesus as someone whoʼs, heʼs always talking about my message is to bring the good news to the poor and he was always talking about the poor, always talking about the oppressed. .. and .. yeah just bring justice to those people and equality. And I think that once I started to realize really what that meant .. once I really started to kind of believe or kind of just started to see the social part of the Gospel a lot of Christians didnʼt to hear that. yeah it can be hard because I guess a lot of Christians Iʼve had interactions with have been “yeah yeah we should try and do stuff or whatever but we shouldnʼt question systems as they are.” We shouldn’t question things capitalism, we shouldnʼt question things global trade that’s just how it is and yea and thatʼs definitely not something that I believe. I definitely think part of my duty as a Christian or just a person is to question large systematic justices that and a lot of people really donʼt to hear that. and its also kinda hard because on the other end, my willingness to question systematic injustices and capitalism or anything has put me under a lot of people who are really counter- cultural so a lot of times around those people they donʼt really to hear about the Christian side of it. So it’s kind of a weird conundr where a lot of the time I’m around people who are “what? Youʼre not a capitalist? What are you a sinner?” and the other times Iʼm around people who are “of course capitalism sucks but youʼre a Christian what are you some sort of sell out?” so itʼs a weird thing. SAYFIE: Yeah kind of a clash of Ideas. FISCHER: Yeah sort of a clash but to me its something that winds up and Its all just one of the same things. Yeah so thatʼs kind of how my beliefs go. Thatʼs where Iʼve felt a lot of that sort of attention. Racially I haven't felt it as much because I said I was raised in a very privileged, white upbringing. Yeah.. very upper middle class, I went to a really really nice school and .. I was raised in Flushing which is a suburb of flint so a lot of times I was really isolated from the realities of Flint and so and in a lot of ways I was given many of the privileges that are associated with being white. And so, yeah so I havenʼt had to come into contact with that as much. SAYFIE: Racially?
 Page 3 �FISCHER: Racially, yeah.
 SAYFIE: So tell me a little bit more about your music. What do you play? th FISCHER: I play guitar and I, when did I start playing? I think 6 grade I got a bass guitar and yeah just kinda went from there. And at first it was just something I picked up sometimes and would kinda get bored of but then I donʼt know I started playing in bands with my friends when I was, in junior high or whatever, and then by high school thatʼs who I was and thatʼs what I cared about... Yeah and it was the type of thing where thatʼs who my type of friends ended up being, most of my friends were musicians and that was definitely something that was really a bonding force between us all, which was great. and its awesome because those are still my best friends. My friends that I made in high school Iʼm still best friends with because of that bond whenever we get together we just play music and we can .. yeah and its always that type of passion, that shared passion, there’s just.. it builds in each other because I donʼt know whenever I see my friends really putting hard work into something a music project and really an awesome CD or something that makes me want to want to push myself further and then that in turn makes my other friends want to push themselves so its something where we all are building on each other’s passion. And so yeah even if I wanted to stop playing music I couldnʼt. So.. SAYFIE: Have you been in any festivals? FISCHER: To see music?
 SAYFIE: Yeah or… FISCHER: Yeah I want to, thatʼs actually something I havenʼt really gotten to do but I really want to ... Bonaroo looked really awesome SAYFIE: I hear its really hot down there. FISCHER: Yeah yeah, or warp tour and stuff, yeah I imagine all those things are pretty hot. Thatʼs why people kept getting really dehydrated and stuff. It sounds fun. SAYFIE: Yeah so youʼve been outside of Michigan, you mentioned New York earlier. Tell me about that, what was that for? FISCHER: New York? SAYFIE: Yeah FISCHER: Ok so, new york was I went out there for occupy wall street. Which is something that I, actually my lib professor Melissa, she was one of my favorite professors in my my whole career at Grand Valley. she sent me an email of this, of this protest that was going on and she was “I think this would be right up your alley.” and its its it was a protest that was kind of being advertised by the magazine Add Busters, which is kind of a counter- cultural magazine thatʼs pretty mainstream. You can Page 4 �find it in Barnes & Noble and they just talk about a lot of really cool activism stuff thatʼs going on. anyways , they were talking about this protest September 17 to just get thousands and thousands of people into into the financial district of Wall Street and occupy the Wall Street area. And just because yeah there are so many people who are so intimately aware into how Wall Street has done terrible things to the majority of our country, while making a small minority of people really really really rich. yeah and so the idea was to kind of , capture all this passion and really vague ambition and get those people who are passionate about it to get together and have them have general assemblies areas where they can talk and discuss what what tactically would be wise and what should be demanded, what should be.. how we should go about doing that. And so, yeah so that was the idea and the date was September 17. And when I first saw that I was “oh that would be really sweet and really really fun, and Iʼm sure id meet a lot of people.” But its in New York so I probably cant or whatever and it was just one of those things where it was “I wish I could but whatever.” And then I got to thinking about it more and I was , because one of the reasons I decided I probably couldnʼt was because my job was technically going into October .. and I was man “I wish I could have been out of this job at this time because I would maybe be able to go.” SAYFIE: This was the...
 FISCHER: The vegetable job, yup. FISCHER: I was you what if I could get out of this job earlier. Or what if, because at the time , over the smer I was in Ann Arbor for music to play with my friend my friend who is a drmer. But he was going to be out of there in September anyways and so then there wasnʼt really anything tying me to Ann Arbor. I was why do I have to stay in Ann Arbor if I want to be in New York? And so then after a few days I realized it kind of hit me .. its kind of plausible that I could quit my job and go to this New York thing. So I put in a months notice of yeah Iʼm not, this is a great job but, its not plausible for me to stay here. and yeah and then a month later I was on my way to New York. me and my friend, Kat from Muskegon went out there and yeah.. that was just a really really awesome trip. We left from Friday night and I didnʼt sleep, I just drove all the way through the night and I was gunna switch up driving but I was, I have a manual car, I have a stick shift and my friend didnʼt know how to drive a stick shift so I just ended up driving all through the night and there was just so much adrenaline that I didnʼt really even think about it. And so we got there at noon on Saturday which is actually right when it started, we timed it perfectly .. and yeah and it was , when we got there, there was a few hundred people and , yeah that day it grew into a thousand or maybe two thousand people on the first day. And it was cool because it was people from all over the country. People from California, Missouri, from Idaho wherever, Washington or Oregon. Yeah and they were just all these really passionate people and so yeah the first day I was marching around the streets it was just so awesome to have all that really raw passion and then yeah we got to we got to this park which was , maybe a block away from Wall Street and we all just kind of gathered into this park and we started having this general assembly to figure out yeah to figure out who we were, what we were doing, how we were gunna go about things. and that was a hot mess it was just out of control Page 5 �SAYFIE: kind of spur of the moment. FISCHER: yeah there was just so many people that had so many things to say trying to make something orderly or comprehensible out of it which was so not gunna happen that night. .. but yeah it was really chaotic .. but we I guess we decided that we were gunna stay over night there at that park and thatʼs what we ended up doing. And yeah the first few days it was just a lot of a lot of that kind of a lot of chaos but also we started to get things done a food committee up, and we started a medics and started to get an idea on how this occupation would start to look and , yeah and we started to become more organized in our marches and stuff .. yeah and there was so many lessons to learn about how to interact with a group that size. and how to make something productive come out of a meeting with hundreds of people who are all really really passionate yeah and yeah and so .. So on Monday there was just so much to happen where do you go? On Monday we had another really big march for the opening bell and .. yeah and it was pretty crazy because this was the first time they actually let us into Wall Street and whatever because over the weekend they wouldnʼt let anyone in. but yeah since it was the opening bell on Monday they let , there were people working so they had to let people in and so we just marched right through and it was crazy! Yeah and that was the first day people had gotten arrested, or was this Sunday or Monday? I donʼt know it was one of those two days that people had actually got arrested and it was .. it was starting to get real woah this is actually something. And my friend got arrested that day, my friend Kat .. just because she was calling out for badge nbers from the police to hold them accountable so that so we could take down badge nbers to see where these cops were doing this so in court that could be brought up in our testament. It is completely legal to call out badge nbers and say what is your badge nber, who are you, blah blah blah. But the cops didnʼt that, NYPD was pointing to her saying “arrest her too.” so yeah they got her so that was kind of scary coming back from the march and being “ok, whereʼs Kat?” and then yeah and then figuring out she had gotten picked up and I had to go down to the the first precinct to get her and there was maybe five other people that had gotten arrested that day too. Just for little things most of them that day were for wearing masks. And theres a weird, weird ordinance thatʼs super outdated in NYC where you can have more than 2 people wearing masks so even a bandana over your nose if theres more than 2 people wearing that, they can get arrested for it. SAYFIE: thatʼs got to be from mafia days. FISCHER: I think it is from mafia days or its something that or something having to do with Native Americans I think it might have been a weird obscure law to keep native Americans from the city Iʼm not exactly sure what its from but its really messed up and outdated but they were using it. They were using anything that they could because we were peaceful protestors we werenʼt knocking out windows or punching anyone we were just chanting and exercising our first amendment rights and yeah they just didnʼt that so they were trying to pick us up for anything they could. .. yeah and throughout the week I just , it just kept growing. We lost a few people after the first day. Because yeah people who flew in, or people who drove long ways had to go back for work. .. so they , the first week after the nbers had died off it started kind of gradually growing again. And then the second Saturday, a week from the day that it started, was a really really crazy march where we marched 2 miles to union square in the city. Page 6 �And that day people were by that time people were saying that we were holding ground and we were getting a lot of support and we were getting bus loads of people in from Wisconsin or Michigan so that Saturday we had between a thousand or two thousand people on this march again. And that was just insane because people were so loud and riled up. We were just taking the streets yeah there was just a mass of people going down Broadway in New York. Its one of the biggest streets there is and and yeah completely stopping traffic and whatnot. And and yeah I guess we had shut down the city for the two hours we were marching and people couldnʼt really go anywhere. .. which was so awesome and was one of the most inspiring moments maybe of my life to look behind me or jp up or stand on my tip toes and see people as far as I could see, just in the streets yelling and chanting and the cops would try and set up blockades and we would just go around them or just go through them they couldnʼt stop us. it was so cool. yeah and we got to Union Square and .. there was this huge huge huge mass of people and yeah as we started to go to go back, theres just more and more, the police violence was building this entire time .. they were especially going for people with cameras cause they didnʼt want this stuff to get docented. Because if theres nobody docenting it then they can really do whatever the hell they want. yeah and so on the way back from Union Square it started to get really crazy they started to bring a lot of the orange nets to try and coral us and yeah and there was points where we were all running and it just turned into a pretty chaotic thing there was cops running with those orange nets trying to out run us and get in front of us, it was crazy. And it was actually pretty funny I want to make a note, the cop running with the orange nets was hilarious because when it got broken down and kind of disorganized, the cops kind of got really disorganized too and they didnʼt know what was going on. And so one cop would be trying to run this way with the net and the cop on the other side would be trying to run the other way with the net and it was the three stooges or something. It was so funny to see. Because you think that protestors are the only ones that get disorganized or whatever but cops definitely were too. Our march was turning a corner once and and so as our march was turning a corner they the cops were able to put one of the nets in front of, in front of the intersection. And so I was in front of the people to got blocked off and so I was standing up against this net just shouting over to our.. to the other half of our march, the march that made it through and and yeah the people that made it through were shouting back “let them through!” and yeah and we were just trying to get the cops to let us through or whatever. but they obviously werenʼt happy about that. And so this went on for a really long time and then .. and .. and eventually the cops brought in another orange barrier from the back and they enclosed 30 of us who were trying to get through. and then they were “ok, if you all arenʼt going to turn around and disperse, were just gunna arrest all of you. And were gunna start with you two.” And he pointed at me and this girl next to me because we were at the front of the orange barricade. and so yeah the cops took this girl next to me and turned her around and they were cuffing her and stuff and and they and.. as our process or our .. what we do when people get arrested is we tell our first and last name and our date of birth. So that we can be found when were in the jail. and so we can have a record on who all gets arrested and whatnot. So as they were turning this girl around in front of me I was “ok whatʼs your name?” and she was “Caitlin Banner October 20th 1988.” And they cuffed her up and hauled her away. And then they they grabbed me and spun me around and I was “Michael Fischer, 12/9/88.” Or whatever. And as I was saying that they pulled me back into the group of cops and they started going for all of the other protestors and and in this , it was pretty chaotic because as they were Page 7 �trying to arrest me, they were also, most of the cops were trying to get in and get all 30 of the people and so it was just another one of those really chaotic times and in that chaos, none of the cops really took the initiative to grab me personally so I just kind of kept my arms really close to my body and shimmied my way backwards and before I knew it I was just in a group of people, our protestors again. And so I just ran into the protestors and found some dude to switch shirts with really quick and took off my bandana and tried to make it I wasnʼt noticeable anymore. And yeah and so that was really probably one of the craziest moments for me basically getting away but I was really happy about that. SAYFIE: you werenʼt wearing handcuffs at this point? FISCHER: No, I didnʼt get cuffed, I didnʼt get cuffed yeah. But yeah then they arrested all the rest of the thirty of them. SAYFIE: Jeez. FISCHER: Yeah so anyways, that march, my friend got arrested for the second time and they held her overnight. And yeah so I, the rest of my day and most of the next day were spent trying to figure out where she was. Trying to figure out, yeah how to be support for her and yeah and they let her out the next day and we were there, and oh yeah that Saturday march I was telling you about, there was over one hundred arrests. Yeah and so after we got her out, we decided, it was Sunday when she got out and she decided it wasnʼt a good idea to risk being at the park again because around that time thereʼs a lot of buzz are the police going to raid this camp, are they not .. it was just anybodyʼs guess and so we stayed at our friends in Brooklyn that night and then we came home the next Monday we started on our way home. And yeah and its such, it was such an amazing, incredible experience because just being around such positive, inspiring people who really want, who are really passionate about making a change, even if its kind of I donʼt know, its kind of hard to know what to do. And I feel that question of what do I do? what is effective, is such a huge overwhelming question for anyone who who has any knowledge about whats going on, cause the problems are so big but its what do you do about it. And I feel the beauty of this Occupy Wall Street movement is its people who are deciding to take the first step even though they donʼt know exactly what to do, even though that is such a huge, enormous question, you can still , you donʼt have to let that question prevent you from letting you do anything. theyʼre getting together and at least trying to address it together in a productive way and in while doing that theyʼre making, theyʼre making all the right people really angry. Because I guess JP Morgan, chase bank, they just donated a huge s of money to the NYPD because theyʼre scared; they are shaking in their boots millions of dollars SAYFIE: really? And is that almost paying off the police? You know that could seem a bribe. FISCHER: Exactly, yeah I kind of reminds you of what the police are there for at least for me it tells me maybe the police arenʼt there to protect everyday citizens maybe the police are there to protect the status quo, even if its just a really unjust status quo. yeah and yeah so, it was just inspiring to see all those people weathering it out through , they wouldnʼt let us put up tents and they arrested some people for hanging up tarps and so whenever it was raining and stuff there was just people sleeping Page 8 �under tarps, using it as a big blanket. And it was so uncomfortable and a lot of sleepless nights because of stuff that. Yeah people were out there enduring it. yeah it was just really inspiring, and now, oh yeah its even more inspiring since , even since Iʼve left it hasnʼt shrunk, its grown and grown exponentially. And yeah just a week ago there was 700 people that got arrested trying to cross the Brooklyn bridge. the cops just kind of mislead them into the traffic and once they were in the traffic part, they blocked off 700 of them and arrested them. Yeah and yeah these things the cops think these are going to tear down our nbers but where as they think that thatʼs the strategy to try and break up this movement is to just try and arrest everybody. But it seems for every arrest, theres 5 more people that are “wow thatʼs insane, I need to get involved.” And so yeah thereʼs just more people now out there than there were even when I was out there. And its 3 weeks later. And now its because thereʼs all these different occupy grand rapids sprouting up or occupy lansing, these different things sprouting up all over the country. and all over the world too thereʼs things going on in Greece or Paris in sequence with stuff that is going on here. And its the Grand Rapids one just started up, this last Saturday. So that was really, really inspiring too. Because I went over to that, do you want to here something about that now? SAYFIE: Yeah, absolutely. FISCHER: Ok cool. Yeah I went over to that and , me and Kat did, and we just kind of got drug into being facilitators in the discussion because we were familiar with the process, we were familiar with how the consensus process that was used and on Wall Street which is basically a process whereby its not just a majority voting , its not just a proposal and whatever side has 51% goes with it, itʼs a consensus process so we try and get everybody to get on the same page and and so it makes it a lot harder at times. but I think that itʼs a much better process because itʼs a way to keep group cohesion. because if yeah because if 49% of the people are having to go along with something that they are really against, then youʼre gunna lose a lot of people at every decision, youʼre going to create a lot of division. But with consensus itʼs a lot different because I guess because if there are concerns, those concerns are always heard. and if there are serious concerns, those concerns are seriously addressed. So you never feel your voice is not being heard. Or you never have to feel that. And a lot of times it isnʼt a perfect process and we are all learning so a lot of times there are a ton of problems with it and but yeah they are learning experiences and it teaches you a lot about how to communicate and how to listen. And how to move through things in a non- hectically way. You have to be a leader and say this is what were going to do and itʼs figuring out whether they want to or not. Yeah so anyways, consensus is good but it can be really, really hard and so at Grand Rapids it was kind of the same thing as New York, where thereʼs just so many people, with so much passion, that trying to make something coherent out of that, was super hard. Because it was even worse because in New York I was kind of just watching and in Grand Rapids I was one of the facilitators. So if things started to get out of hand, I kind of felt it was my fault. I had to try bringing everybody back and bringing everyone back on track. And it was so hard because we would just open it up for agenda items. I made it clear, this isnʼt a rant, this isnʼt your opinion, this isnʼt what the best demand would be. This is something that you think needs to be talked about on the agenda today. and so everybody opened up and we got one, maybe two good agenda items how, where and when we should do this. And yes of course we have to talk about that. But then we started getting people that are , “Chase bank is the worst, we need to all boycott Chase bank. We need to all go over Page 9 �there and take out our funds right now. And you know what else we need to do, is our carbon footprints,” and blah blah blah. And just these huge long rants and Iʼm just what do you do with this. and so yeah just trying to make something productive out of that was just really, really hard. but there was a lot of really good passion, a lot of really good energy. And there were people, it took us so long to figure out , ʻcuz the meeting on Saturday was technically just a general assembly just to figure out when and how we would occupy. Or where we would occupy at. it took us so long to figure out those questions. But yeah and it , people stuck through it, people were really enduring it. which was awesome. It was kind of just a testament to how much people care about it. They are willing to sit through literally four, five hour long meetings in the hot sun, in Calder Plaza, with no shade. and yeah just dealing with it when it seems not productive at all, just working through it. And yeah we just ended up deciding that we were just gunna occupy now and people started to march over to the park, which is just off of Pearl St. by the river. And yeah when we finally came to consensus about the park, everyone was just screaming, so happy that we made a really productive decision. And then we had a huge long march; it wasnʼt that long really, it was just a huge, really intense march. from Calder plaza, over to the park and yeah people were just going crazy, I lost my voice totally. Which was, I got there and was “hey I canʼt talk.” Which was kind of cool now because someone else has to present it I didnʼt want to do it. SAYFIE: Yeah it must be tough organizing. FISCHER: yeah but luckily one of my good friends started facilitating after that and sheʼs a way better facilitator than I am. so I was really happy to see that. And yeah its still going to this day, thereʼs still people over there at the park. I went over last night and they have a ton of food, a ton of water and it worked totally. There was maybe thirty people when I went that were staying the night, which is really good for just Grand Rapids because there were some nights in New York where we only got down to maybe 30 to 50 people. So just to have already that many in Grand Rapids, its great so hopefully it will keep going and maybe keep getting more organized and more efficient. yeah. SAYFIE: So New York was the start of this occupy? FISCHER: New York was the start then things started to kind of branch off and build off of the moment from New York. SAYFIE: So was this the start of your involvement in this type of activism type stuff? FISCHER: No I have been doing it for a really long time before that Iʼve been, yeah kinda been interested in it ever since high school and then started doing actual kind of work regarding it mostly in college, I learned a lot about it. SAYFIE: Ok
 FISCHER: Can we pause and get something to drink? SAYFIE: Absolutely. Page 10 �[Pause] SAYFIE: Okay, tell me about, your involvement in college and the groups you were involved in... FISCHER: So it started... when I, I remember when I came to college my freshman year, I was really excited to get into Amnesty International. I was I didnʼt really even know exactly who they were, but I just kind of had a vague idea that they did stuff that I wanted to do. Yeah, so I got involved with them. And... yeah, and so I was pretty much involved with them freshman and sophomore year. Yeah, they do, they do cool stuff. It wasnʼt really my type of... it got me involved with a lot of really cool people on campus. But as far as a group goes, and what I wanted to do, it wasnʼt really exactly what I wanted to do. But they do, they still do awesome stuff. And, yeah, from those connections, I kind of I got to meet a lot of other cool people. I think one of the big, one of the big, kind of shaping factors about what I, about what I ended up doing in college was when I decided, when I found out that you could be a Liberal Studies major; which is basically create your own major. Yeah I found that out my sophomore year, and yeah and I was originally just gonna just be a religion [major], that was gonna be my emphasis, was just religion. And so yeah, I had to take LIB100 that winter semester of my fresh... of my sophomore year. I had an awesome professor named Melissa Baker- Boersma. And sheʼs actually the one that I said emailed me about the Wall Street thing and told me about that. Yeah and anyways, yeah so I got to be really good friends with Melissa. And that semester I also had a Martin Luther King Jr. class; which is definitely the most, one of the most life-changing classes that I took, too, because he was just such a conspiring figure to me. And yeah, that was definitely one of the places where I really realized the connection between my faith and social justice, and the connections between , yeah, the Christian faith and addressing systematic social problems. [pause] Yeah and just the way that he did it was such an awesome inspiring thing for me. Yeah and then the next, yeah the next year... the next year I was involved in sustainability and practice... practic with Melissa Baker-Boersma, and that was really, really awesome. That was probably one of the most shaping moments of my life, the shaping times, periods of my life because yeah that was yeah when I was really putting all the, connecting all the dots between yeah environmentalism and stuff, and also systematic injustices in capitalism, and kind of seeing how those things were really, whatʼs it called, really related. And yeah, and I got to see that on , on a theoretical level because we had been reading a lot of really awesome books, and I got to see it on a practical level because I was working with this organization called, “Our Kitchen Table,” who does a lot of works with community gardens in, and around, Grand Rapids. And yeah it was just really, it was really cool to see , in the, in theory, how power works - through books and what not – and, but also, to see how practically, what those... how power works on the ground in, in Grand Rapids; and how , and how those large, overarching injustices are perpetuated, you know, right outside our doors. And yeah ... yeah a lot of the work that “Our Kitchen Table” did is trying to get food gardens in lower income areas – places where... places where [coughing in background] there arenʼt a lot of places, a lot of grocery stores that you can necessarily just go to. [fumbles with words] so a lot of people end up getting their food from a corner store, or a liquor store. Yeah and just trying to bring healthy food systems to these , to these areas, yeah and itʼs, it was such a good experience to see how the obstacles that are, that are put in place, and the way in which, yeah the way in which businesses or [short pause] elected officials can put up barriers to these , to these achievements that we are trying to work for. [pause] [fingers Page 11 �tapping on desk] Yeah, and I think that semester I met most of the people who... I, who kind of I hung out with the rest of my college life. People over at the Bloom Collective, [cough] which is a, a radical info shop in Grand Rapids, and just kind of a, an alternative library... SAYFIE: Okay... FISCHER: ...where you get a lot of, kind of alternative media, alternative books and docentaries that are, kind of counter-cultural [JS agrees] and that are... that you wouldnʼt find in a mainstream library; because they really, theyʼre really a radical challenge to the status quo. Yeah and they, the people at the Bloom Collective do a lot of really awesome stuff. just one of the things they do is a really, really free market sometimes where you just bring stuff; people bring stuff that they... that is valuable - that they donʼt need - and can give it away for free. SAYFIE: Mhmm... FISCHER: And, so, if you want something, you can get it for free; but if you have something that somebody else would need, you can give it to them for free. So itʼs called the really, really free market. And they do a lot of really awesome classes about... ... “The History of Social Movements” is one of the classes I took there a class Iʼm taking right now is called “Radical Sustainability”, ... which is basically looking at sustainability... in a way thatʼs... more than more than just driving less, or more than just using recycled goods itʼs really looking at what are the systematic ways in which we must address , we must address , power structures... now in order to , in order to fight for a more sustainable world, and , and to demand one, rather than just kind of hoping that it will come if we do these personal lifestyle things. [phone bings in the background] , yeah, and [pause] ... yeah, so I still do a lot of work with them. SAYFIE: Very cool. FISCHER: Yeah, and then my senior year, another class that I took which was really important to me was ... [thinking] ah, it was called “Dialogue”, and there was a subtitle to it, but I forgot, I forgot what the subtitle was. Anyways, whatʼs important is it was called “Dialogue”, and the professor was Azfar Hussain, and Azfarʼs another one of the guys whoʼs just a really, really good friend of me to this day and we still chat and hang out and stuff. [voices in background] But, anyways, he was, that was just one more step in really realizing the systematic nature of a lot of these problems yeah... and... [pause] Yeah so thatʼs, those were kind of a lot of the really shaping classes that I took, or the shaping people that kind of came into my life, throughout Grand Valley. Yeah and just helped me to realize the connection between different things that I was doing on the ground because Iʼd- Iʼve, Iʼve been doing a lot of work with homeless, homeless populations over on Division [Avenue], and ... and what not, and... yeah, and working with community gardens and stuff. And I can think that these were all kind of things I was doing a lot throughout my college experience, but, as I was, as I went through, and I learned more about it, I could really learn that there was, there was a real connection between homelessness and ecological destruction. SAYFIE: Mhmm... Page 12 �FISCHER: A lot of the same forces behind the destruction of rain forests were the same forces behind the destruction of peopleʼs lives yeah, and the same forces that were causing a lot of foreclosures, and ... yeah, ... just the way that... Yeah and even [pause] itʼs also related to the prison the prison build-up how thereʼs so many people being incarcerated and the vast majority of these are people of color and itʼs just ... Yeah all these, learning that all these things are really related in in a way thatʼs, thatʼs used to perpetuate a global capitalist system, and perpetuate a system where a very small minority of people can own the vast majority of the wealth. Where yeah , the top... the richest 20-percent of the population can own 85-percent of the nationʼs wealth. And itʼs just crazy because that means 80percent of the people, the vast majority of this countryʼs population, is forced to split , basically oneand-a-half pieces of the, of the pie. And itʼs , that just doesnʼt work of course youʼre gonna get, [pause] of course youʼre going to get people living in poverty and yeah yeah, and so I guess Iʼve just really realized that a lot of the work I do is to kind of... yeah, work to take that... take down a lot of institutions take down a lot of things that are very destructive but also to create a lot of alternative systems… create a lot of alternative food systems, where... which is kind of what we are trying to do with “Our Kitchen Table.” Alternative food systems where you donʼt have to be rich in order to get healthy food; where you can just have healthy food growing behind your house creating alternative education systems, ... education systems where you are taught how to communicate, and how to relate with, not only with the people around you, but with the nature around you and thatʼs pretty diametrically opposed to our current education system, which is basically educating you how to get a job in industrial capitalism… SAYFIE: [laughs] Right... FISCHER: ...And which is basically I think the goal in which if you look around, I think a lot of people here, if you ask them why are they in college, itʼd be to get a job [Jordan agrees] yeah and so [pause] thereʼs.. yeah, everywhere you look thereʼs to do... everywhere you look thereʼs potential to create alternatives, and more, .. yeah, just beautiful opportunities to create a lot of great things yeah. Oh, and I think, one more thing that I... if Iʼm going to talk about college, one thing that I have to talk about is my senior year I took a class called “Community Working Classics,” where I basically I taught in a jail, I taught in a prison, for for a semester, and that was definitely one of the most life changing experiences, as well. just to kind of see the reality that [phone bings] the people are made to live in, in the prison. And yeah... and to, and to discuss with - what I taught was a sociology class – and, yeah, just to... to hear their, their point of views, and to realize how... to realize how much different their, their world is than than just what Iʼve seen growing up in a pretty sheltered, pretty privileged life of growing up in a suburban life coming to a college where you can really – , being around life prisoners, being around people whoʼve gone through really some of the hardest places in life – you can realize how sheltered how sheltered you can be in the suburbs, [Jordan agrees] how sheltered you can be if you have money and yeah, just to kind of broaden your horizons in that way is, itʼs the most, one of the most valuable experiences of my life [pause] yeah, so that was really important. SAYFIE: When you were teaching at the prison, did you... Page 13 �FISCHER: Yeah... SAYFIE: I mean, did you get the sense that these people wanted to learn, or were they... FISCHER: Oh my gosh, yeah, of course yeah, I think youʼre... I think just the way that this culture treats prison is kind of out of sight, out of mind, and, [pause] and youʼre not youʼre never explicitly taught in school that prisoners are evil people, and prisoners are just unmotivated and donʼt want to learn, but these are kind of the ideas that are slowly engrained in you ... and, so, yeah a ton of people have this, have this misconception of prisoners as these mean, ugly people, who, ... who, yeah are just kind of nonmotivated or whatever, but that couldnʼt be farther from the truth. ... yeah, and ... theyʼre, yeah, just as motivated, if not more, than anyone at college. ... very, and just so knowledgeable, and so many very valuable experiences and insights that you donʼt get, and you donʼt realize if you grow up in a suburb they just have so many valuable insights to these things that Iʼve never that Iʼve never really even considered because I was never exposed to it in the way that they were especially dealing with oppression they have so many, I- I was exposed... during that time when I was having so many conversations with inmates, I was exposed to so many realities and insights regarding oppression that that were so spot on, but I never would have realized them if I hadnʼt talked to somebody who actually went through it firsthand and experienced it so, ... yeah, so presently. SAYFIE: Yeah, thatʼs incredible. FISCHER: Yeah... SAYFIE: Back to...what was the name of the alternative library? FISCHER: Bloom Collective. SAYFIE: Bloom Collective? FISCHER: Yeah... SAYFIE: And thatʼs in Grand Rapids? FISCHER: Yeah, and thatʼs Fourth and Davis... SAYFIE: Okay...
 FISCHER: ...I think.
 SAYFIE: Okay.
 FISCHER: I think itʼs... yeah.
 SAYFIE: What, what sort of... books or movies... Page 14 �FISCHER: They have a lot of... SAYFIE: ...Inspired you, that... FISCHER: Oh, inspired me? Sorry. SAYFIE: Yeah, yeah... FISCHER: , okay, yeah this is a good question. ... okay. One book – Iʼll, Iʼll just kind of name a few of the books – well, one of them was obviously Martin Luther King Jr.ʼs autobiography... was one of the first that was really super inspirational. ... thereʼs a book called, a book by David Edwards called “Burning All Illusions” which is kind of... it kind of just came to me at the right time when I was, ... kind of starting to, ... Itʼs kind of a hard book to explain, but this book was kind of about... yeah, burning up, burning the illusion that, that things arise out of individuals... Itʼs kind of burning an individualistʼs paradigm or losing an individualist paradigm. Because a lot of times you can think, you can get into the paradigm of oh if I, if I buy this “fair trade” coffee then thatʼs, you know, thatʼs my, thatʼs my duty to if I want to fight for social justice, then Iʼd buy “fair trade” coffee or if I want to, yeah, if I want to fight for for the environment, then Iʼd buy a, you know eco-friendly Windex, or whatever [Jordan snickers] and yeah, and itʼs so easy to be, to get trapped into this individualistʼs paradigm but yeah, I think that that book is really about realizing that these things arenʼt, these things come as a result of, of certain systems that are in place yeah, Iʼm going to talk about international capitalism, these things result in that invariably, and itʼs not, and itʼs not something that, that can be fought by just everybody individually buying their own deal it has to be, yeah, kind of addressed at a, at a more root level thereʼs an awesome quote by Henry David Thoreau, which is “There are thousands of people chopping at the branches of injustice, but only one chopping at the root.” And I think thatʼs something that, yeah, theyʼre just having to see more and more, and itʼs adjusting things at the roots yeah, because, people doing the Montgomery bus, or people during the Civil Rights era, they didnʼt they didnʼt just try and change peopleʼs individual consciousness’s and try and overturn Jim Crow that way. They, they, they knew that the institution of racism and the way that it was instituted in these laws had to be changed, and then that would result in peopleʼs consciousness’s changing. And I think that the same is really applicable today, where thereʼs a lot of people thinking that “oh, once everybodyʼs consciousness’s changes, then these laws, and these systems, will change.” But I see it, I see it the other way, where once these system change, once these systems change, once these laws and whatever changes then thatʼs, then thatʼs what changes peopleʼs consciousness’s. And Iʼm, of course, itʼs important to raise consciousness, and raise awareness, but thatʼs not the only thing. SAYFIE: Right. FISCHER: Yeah yeah because... yeah, so that was, thatʼs one, that was one book another author that was really, really influential to me was Derek Jensen he is... Derek Jensen is super, super radical, yeah, , environmental guy. And at first I started reading him because Melissa gave us this one article by him, and I was ʻThis dude is crazy.ʼ [Jordan laughs] ʻ off of his record crazy.ʼ and I was , ʻyeah, I should read Page 15 �him just because because I reading seeing what really crazy, different points of view are.ʼ , [Jordan sniffles] and then the more I read him, I was ʻwell, maybe, heʼs actually kind of rightʼ [both laugh] , because I think that yeah. Heʼs... yeah his, just really talking about addressing the the realities of the environmental situation that we face. Which theyʼre just so, so hard, and, yeah 200 species going extinct every day, and , just really terrifying, depletion of water aquifers and just the fact that our basically, most of Western civilization is built on oil, and , not only for transportation, but just for our food system to work and for our energy system to work, and this is a resource thatʼs going to run out, [Jordan laughs and softly says “I know”] really, really dang soon. And just if, if weʼre get- putting more faith in it, and it just dries up, and thatʼs really, really disastrous and yeah I think that he made me really acknowledge the problem for what it is, and yeah, and just kind of reconsider how you go about addressing it accordingly yeah, and... thereʼs a lot of really good movies that I... that, thereʼs a movie called “The Corporation”. Thereʼs a movie thatʼs called “Food, Inc.”, which is this brilliant movie. SAYFIE: Yeah... FISCHER: Itʼs all about our food system yeah Iʼm just trying to think of other good movies that I d.. thereʼs one, thereʼs one called “Blue Gold,” which is about water yeah, just about the depletion of water aquifers and whatnot, and, yeah, just how we think about how we handle our fresh water resources yeah... they have just a, just a ton of really good stuff about that. SAYFIE: Yeah, itʼs interesting.
 FISCHER: Mhmm...
 SAYFIE: Did you you ever see “The Motorcycle Diaries”? FISCHER: No, what is that? Oh, is that Che Guevara?
 SAYFIE: Yeah, yup...
 FISCHER: Nice.
 SAYFIE: Yeah itʼs, yeah itʼs very good.
 FISCHER: Yeah, thatʼs one that I did want to see, I should watch it. SAYFIE: ... [pause] so as far as “Occupy Grand Rapids” goes... FISCHER: Yeah... SAYFIE: ...no, no arrests in Grand Rapids? FISCHER: No arrests yet. That I, not that I know of. Unless when happened maybe yesterday night, I... but yeah, no arrests. this is... Itʼs crazy. Thereʼs a small police presence thereʼs no police presence in Page 16 �Grand Rapids. SAYFIE: [laughing] Yeah... FISCHER: Because in Wall Street that was the first thing I saw before I even saw protestors, I just saw lines of cops. SAYFIE: Right, yeah, theyʼre everywhere. FISCHER: It’s in Wall Street itʼs nuts you would swear that one-in-three New Yorkers was a cop for an occupation. [Jordan laughs] , thatʼs what they did for a living. Because thereʼs so many of them; I donʼt know how they get so many [Jordan continues to laugh]. But, ... but yeah, in Grand Rapids I saw three cops on the first day... SAYFIE: Mhmm. FISCHER: The whole day so it was a really different feel. [fingers tapping on desk] SAYFIE: So what, what would you say is the overall, transpiring goal of the ʻOccupyʼ movement? FISCHER: Thatʼs... I have a... they have, theyʼve, they have come out with a statement in in New York about what their , who they are. And I wish I had it on me right now. ...[Robbieʼs phone rings] Oops. But yeah they Iʼll just kind of try to say it from what I know itʼs kind of, thatʼs kind of a hard question that weʼve been asked a lot because itʼs not something anyone, individually, can say until the whole group has consents and says, ʻyeah, this is what our goal isʼ. SAYFIE: Right, right. FISCHER: But, yeah, they did release a statement thatʼs saying, yeah that theyʼre essentially anticorporate. Theyʼre very out, people who are very outraged at just the, just the glaring injustices that are obvious and right in the face of all these people who are just suffering yeah, just the, the very vast inequality between the rich and the poor, and between the amount that the rich have and the amount that the poor donʼt have [Jordan laughs] yeah... and so, yeah, the, I think that the kind of , that part of it, the ʻwho we areʼ part has kind of been, or is the process of, being decided the goals, or the demands, I guess you could say, are still definitely in the works because yeah, there are, there is such a vastly diverse group of people who are there there are there are union people. There are teachers. There are socialists. There are anarchists there are people with all these different goals or ideas of what should happen, and and yeah I think that this is a really good idea for them, or a really good chance for them to yeah, to try and... I donʼt know, work together despite those they might have a difference about where the exact end point is, but they can take at least the first few steps together and use collective moment to get something going. SAYFIE: Right.
 Page 17 �FISCHER: Yeah, so thatʼs that. SAYFIE: How would... I know you said itʼs hard to describe your po... your political... FISCHER: Yeah...
 SAYFIE: ...ideals, but what would, I mean, what would you...
 FISCHER: Personal goals? SAYFIE: Yeah. FISCHER: I could, yeah, I could say personal goals okay, I think that... One: I think that industrial civilization that is the industrial way of life, a way of life based on oil, based on extracting resources, ... and not putting them back, is inherently unsustainable. I believe that that yeah industrial, the industrial way of life as we, as we have it right now ..with fast super highways and .. yeah.. basically where people can live in buildings and really never even have to be in nature, and where.. yeah where our food system is .. based on 1500 mile supply lines. That, I believe, is unsustainable and it will not last .. and I believe that its important that we acknowledge that it wonʼt not last, and acknowledge that .. that thatʼs not a bad thing entirely .. thereʼs a lot of pain that will come, .. when .. yeah because a lot of people are very dependent on the system the way it is .. but..... but at the same time .. yeah I guess just.. when I picture a.. a future, I picture a future in which more people are able to connect with the people around them, and the places around them, and .. and rather than .. rather than being isolated in a room watching a TV, they can be, .. yeah in a group of people because , the reality is ..community is a necessary part of survival , .. and I think that .. our.. for the last however many years.. weʼve had the.. we’ve been able to be deceived into.. into thinking that .. into thinking that you can live completely isolated, and I think that .. Things oil... have been able to create this kind of false idea of what the world is ... yeah, and I think that we just really need to... to imagine worlds... that are vastly different than that, imagine worlds where ... that are more in line with the natural processes of the seasons .. More in line with the natural processes that are around us... yeah, because in reality ... its not natural to be so isolated from... from the outside world. It’s not natural to be so... So isolated that you can basically do the same thing every day of the year, regardless of what season it is... Yeah, I was thinkinʼ about that when I was ... I don’t know... there are people who have the same job or who... who get to their job the same way every day of the year, .. And if it’s... the only difference that they notice might be , “oh I have to shovel out my driveway... for a couple days of the Year." but .. yeah a hundred years ago , you notice the season change. You notice whatʼs going on around you. You notice when its .. you notice when its a full moon. You notice when its yeah, you notice when the grasshoppers stop .. singing. You notice when the different bird calls happen. And thats just a hundred years ago.. .. if you go thousands of years ago .. thatʼs all that you notice, thats where you get your knowledge, and thats where you get .. thats where you .. thats where you live. .. and I think industry and.. oil and all of these things have allowed people to kind of .. live in a place thats not really Earth.. you can live in an internet world or a TV world .. that's completely divorced from the actual real world reality outside of your.. outside of your door. .. and its just .. an example is.. on a.. there's.. there was an .. there was a.. imagine that there was an .. an insect Page 18 �or something that came through and wiped out the ash trees .. the ash boar, a couple years ago, it d wiped out ash trees all behind my house.. and , I donʼt know, I didnʼt really notice.. but the first time that Facebook went through a format change .. people are frickinʼ up in arms about that, theyʼre “change it back right now!” And so thats just another.. thats a testament to what world people live in. they.. people are just beginning to live in this world where what matters is the format of Facebook, what matters isnʼt the 200 species that are going extinct in the actual real world.. .. and I think that yeah.. that yeah.. so i guess to s it up I think that.. that yeah we are.. we are going to be forced to live according to the laws of the real natural world, and I think the sooner we can realize that, and the sooner we can work towards that, the better. .. yeah and so thats what Iʼm trying to do with my life is to work towards.. work towards that type of living, work towards ways of living that arenʼt dependent on industrial civilization, because industrial civilization canʼt and wonʼt be .. sustainable, and it wonʼt be permanent. .. and I think that yeah..the sooner we recognize that the easier the transition will be. SAYFIE: Do you think, because it almost seems if you were to say, yaʼ know.. just let everybody conse as much, say oil, as they can until it ran out then theyʼd have this epic collapse and revert back to this.. if people didnʼt develop alternative .. Sources of transportation, and that kind of thing, then they would kind of be forced back into [a natural way of living].. FISCHER: Yeah.. yeah .. yeah so I think that.. yeah that’s definitely a good point .. which is why I donʼt put a lot of energy into looking for alternative ways to power cars.. or.. because I donʼt want there to be cars. .. .. yeah.. and I think that a lot of these things that are done in the name of sustainability, and theyʼre done with literally all the best intentions, they can really .. a lot of times be served to just distract people, and to make them think that this.. this way of life can be redeemed, and that the industrial life can be salvaged when, I believe, the reality is that it canʼt. And so I try and do in the work that I do I try and .. do things that .. that arenʼt reliant on industrial civilization, which is putting a lot of work into community gardens, .. things getting people to re-learn .... skills that have been long lost, or skills that are being overlooked by things industrial.. industrial agriculture. yeah.. because yeah its just.. I think its great when people can learn how to be.. self sufficient in that way, where they can grow food for their own family, and the families around them. .. and kind of yeah.. learn how to preserve their own food, and learn how to.. yeah how to purify water from rivers, how to.. how to do these things which, yaʼ know, hundreds of years ago, or even a hundred years ago everybody knew how to do them. .. yeah.. I just think its so valuable to re-learn those types of skills. SAYFIE: Alright, is there anything else that you want to mention? FISCHER: I think Iʼm pretty good.
 SAYFIE: Well, yeah me too. Thank you for doing this, its been very eye opening. FISCHER: Definitely. END OF INTERVIEW Page 19 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0738af0ff908e16e94063584bcc99421.mp3 b97c6c85ad181da6c97189a98b78c160 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Fischer_Robby Title A name given to the resource Robby Fischer audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Fischer, Robby Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sayfie, Jordan Description An account of the resource Robby Fischer is a Grand Valley State University Alumni. He talks about his experiences with activism in West Michigan. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-10 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5984733f3120b2a2d9bdf4c903a27c2a.pdf e72f147ff49acc8f3873f4c811d226c6 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Filiz Dogru Interviewers: Allison Kelleher, Ray Ramirez, Lukas Johnsen, and Jaci Cangealose Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/21/2012 Biography and Description Filiz Dogru was born in Turkey, came to the United States in 1990, and settled in West Michigan in August 2003. He is a professor at Grand Valley State University and an active member of the Niagara foundation and the Turkish American Michigan society. He discusses how he never felt different until moving to West Michigan, although the Grand Rapids area is improving on diversity. Transcript KELLEHER: So remember when I told you we were going to, the interview was going to be archived? DOGRU: Oh Boy, you are scaring me now. KELLEHER: I told you that for previous or for future research, if you want you, it can be used later on, or just for this project, it’s completely up to you. There is two of them you have to fill out, one of them is a copy for our teacher and one is a copy for Grand Valley’s records. DOGRU: Ok about this who will write, is it here in Michigan you are interested? Or in general in the world? CANCEALOSE: Let’s do both. KELLEHER: It’s for studies in west Michigan but it’s incorporating all different aspects. Yeah. DOGRU: Ok, Ahh. My previous interviews are not that serious, trust me. CANCEALOSE: Well we are required to do this. KELLEHER: Can I have your copy of the page… DOGRU: Ok final transcript like before you are presenting or before giving anybody, are you going to give it to me to read it? Because if there is any misunderstanding, I may say, oh, I didn’t mean this, is it? CANCEALOSE: I don’t think she went over that in class. KELLEHER: I don’t think she did either. Page 1 �CANCEALOSE: So we can ask her about it today. KELLEHER: We are presenting on Monday or Wednesday. DOGRU: Oh this coming Monday or Wednesday? CANCEALOSE: Yeah. DOGRU: Oh, so when I have time to see it? KELLEHER: We are gonna work on it this weekend, and we can give you…. DOGRU: This weekend I am not here (laughs). KELLEHER: Well we have… DOGRU: I am out of town. KELLEHER: We will do our best to get it done by like, when are you leaving? DOGRU: Saturday Morning. KELLEHER: Could we get it to you Friday if we work really hard and try to get this transcript done? It’s gonna be a lot but… DOGRU: If I can have it like Friday five o’clock or so. I can hopefully, I will check my e-mail, and get back to you by mid night or so, is that ok? KELLEHER: We will do our best to get it done by then. DOGRU: Ok, hopefully the questions are easier than this one. KELLEHER: Sorry. DOGRU: What do you want me to do? KELLEHER: You have to read it and give your initials. CANCEALOSE: Grand Valley makes us do this. KELLEHER: Both of these have to be done. DOGRU: Oh, this is my name right? KELLEHER: Yup. DOGRU: I wish you brought these. KELLEHER: Yeah I didn’t have them. DOGRU: Is that it? This one too? Page 2 �CANCEALOSE: Yup. KELLEHER: You can do it at the end if you want, since there is two of them and you had already done one of them. DOGRU: Ok. KELLEHER: If that’s what you like. DOGRU: I wish to do one of them. DOGRU: And today is 21st? KELLEHER: Yeah I didn’t have these with me yesterday. DOGRU: Oh, which one is me? KELLEHER: The printed name and then the signature. DOGRU: Yeah but both require my signature? KELLEHER: Is this supposed to be mine? CANCEALOSE: No you are the interviewer, you ask the questions. KELLEHER: We can get some white out. DOGRU: This is me? DOGRU: Alright guys let me see. KELLEHER: Sorry about that. DOGRU: You look so serious. KELLEHER: Sorry. DOGRU: It says could you please give me some information about yourself. DOGRU: Are you recording already? CANCEALOSE: Yes. DOGRU: You are serious? KELLEHER: We have to go back and listen to it. We just have to give it to her so she knows that we actually conducted the interview. DOGRU: Ok. KELLEHER: She is cool, she will let us. Page 3 �DOGRU: Full name is Filiz Dogru; do you want me to spell it? CANCEALOSE: Sure. DOGRU: D-o-g-r-u, I have one soft g in the Turkish alphabet, as opposed to the g in the English alphabet, that’s why it’s not Dog-ru but Dogru. And place of birth, is in Turkey, if I can have a paper? KELLEHER: Sure. DOGRU: In fact Turkey is called Turk-ey-ya, somehow in English they call it Turkey. And date is, oh that is a bad date, February 9, 1962. Ok I’m pretty old huh? Alright parents and siblings, parents are all passed away, siblings I have only one brother, ancestors, what would you want me to say on that? My grandparents, great grandparents, they are all passed away. KELLEHER: Where were they from? DOGRU: My mother’s side was the Balkan Turks, and my father’s side is from Anatolia, it is just regular Turkey, it is a long time they have been there. Life partner, I don’t have any. No marriage, nothing. No children. Education, I have three master’s degrees and one PHD. Religion is Islam. Community involvement, oh I am very actively involved in dialogue organizations, do you need particular names for that? Or just in general? KELLEHER: Yes please. DOGRU: I am an active member of the Niagara foundation, and I am an active member of Turkish American Michigan society. KELLEHER: Can you say that again? DOGRU: Turkish American Michigan Society. DOGRU: And professions, I am a mathematician, a university professor, political party, NOTHING. I hate politics; I don’t want to follow politics. This is my personal opinion anyway. DOGRU: When did you come to Western Michigan? August 2003, but I came to United States in 1990. DOGRU: How would you describe your own identity? I am a Muslim, Turkish American. DOGRU: Was there a particular moment in your adulthood or growing up when you were treated different because of your faith? Oh yea (laugh). Well first of all, growing up I was in Turkey, I came to the United States when I was 25 or 26 years old, and I didn’t felt anything until I came to western Michigan, it’s really funny isn’t it? Immediately after I come to western Michigan, I realize that I am different, not from the community, but I don’t know if that is related to my faith, or my dress code, or my accent maybe, or they realize my accent is from another country. I can’t pin point on that, but I definitely realized that I’m different. KELLEHER: What was it like in school? You said that you had three master’s degrees. Where did you get them from? Page 4 �DOGRU: I received a master’s degree at Brown University Providence, Rhode Island. It’s very diverse, and I didn’t feel anything was different because everyone was from somewhere. And then my second master is in Virginia Tech. That is also a huge research school too, so that is also very, very diverse. I didn’t feel anything, and also another thing is I didn’t live in the regular city. I also lived in the campus, at least you don’t feel you are different at the time, you just feel you are a student. It is all students there from different cultures and different ethics and things, and same thing; I got the third master degree from the University of Toledo. That is also very diverse school, I didn’t feel much. I earned my PhD at Penn State, in Pennsylvania. That is also a huge research school. Those schools, they are recruiting students from all over the world, you don’t feel some people are different and some are not, we are all, we do not feel anything. But immediately after I came to western Michigan, I wasn’t a student anymore; I wasn’t living in the campus. I had to find a regular apartment, I had to live in the community, and it’s a different approach with the community, you know? In that case yes, I felt it very much, in the mall, people are talking to you and it’s totally different than they were talking two seconds ago to someone else. And the cashier’s behavior, especially when I came here to the bank, I didn’t understand bank, cashier would be saying something about something and I would sorry I did not understand this and she would start raising her voice as if I don’t hear it. I told her ‘I am not deaf, please come down and tell me the term, what does that mean?’ And then they didn’t know how to deal with someone who looked a little different than them. That’s what I thought. KELLEHER: When you came from Turkey did you go immediately to college and live on the campus there or did you live in the community? DOGRU: No. The whole my life, I lived in always the college towns, always I was in the big schools, and always I was surrounded by those people. For example, at Virginia Tech, that is a small town, but the town is completely university. Penn State is like that too, the whole town is the university, you don’t see other people, everyone is faculty or for the university, or student, so even though it is a small town, you don’t feel it. Providence is a big city, but I lived since I was new at the time in the campus, I didn’t go around it that much, so I didn’t feel anything. And let’s see where else, here Grand Rapids was totally different because Grand Valley University, this university is separate from the city. It’s not the city is the university, so in that case you are some people know when I say I am working for Grand Valley they say ‘oh that’s great, my cousin’s daughter is going there.’ I mean it’s nothing close relation with the school. KELLEHER: So what made you choose Grand Valley? DOGRU: Job. So after I graduated I earned my PhD and I applied several places and got three jobs offer, I don’t know if you are family or how those work because every January we have mathematicians applying for jobs, we have a big meeting and in those meeting you can choose what jobs are good for you. Then you can apply. After you apply you and they like you, then they call for the interview. If they like you in the interview, then you get offered the job. I got offered several of them, I got three offers, and Grand Valley was the best of those three, so that’s why I came here. KELLEHER: You said that Grand Rapids was totally different because it was separate from the university. Can you talk about what your experience was like when you first came to Grand Valley and to the Grand Rapids area? Page 5 �DOGRU: Grand Valley was ok. I mean everyone somehow, someway went to graduate school. They know those kinds of environments; they came from outside the area to find a job, but outside the university is not very familiar. And still there are some, but it’s so different ten years ago and now, you can feel it, even Grand Valley did not have this much diversity. Now they are doing very good job to collect those students and faculty members. At that time, it was obvious, when you go into a meeting, or you go into some kind of gathering with the community, you are suddenly left alone there, you can see people looking at you a little differently, kind people, I’m not saying they are unkind, or bad. You can feel it, and that’s a very bad feeling, I had never felt that before. But it’s changing, I can definitely say that. There is a huge difference between ten years ago and now. KELLEHER: Did you ever feel different around your students or people that took your classes, things like that, how did your students react? DOGRU: Good question, very good question. I am a mathematician, I teach calculus, I teach geometry, whatever you can think of. In those classes, especially calculus’s, it’s not easy for the students, especially because some of the freshman are taking calculus. In the beginning, everything is interesting for them, I am interesting, different type of teacher, and especially the beginning because right this moment I think students taught students. They give the information about yourself, nobody knew me before, I was just there. They were staring at me, that fine, that’s okay, new teacher, they problem started, whenever they start getting bad grades. Good students usually don’t talk, if they like something in your class they don’t go around and say ‘oh it’s wonderful, it’s beautiful,’ but if one bad student in there doesn’t understand what you are saying, he immediately blames you have an accent, you are not talking English, this is coming up. In the first several years, the first three or four years, it was coming up. It came up very much. I was like ‘oh god, I have been here twenty years talking with these kids and they don’t understand.’ I have ninety students, five of them don’t understand, and those five student’s voices are out, but anyway, those kinds of things happen. I even remember once, one student went very well the whole semester, and suddenly he flunked the final. Everything was fine at the time, oh he was friendly coming in and out, and of course when you flunk in the final, your grade is automatically going down. It won’t fail it, but if it is A it becomes B, and B becomes C, and goes on. And after final he came and he said ‘you know I flunked because you know you are, you are…’ and I said ‘what? You know, what happened?’ He said ‘well you are not speaking well.’ I just looked at him, oh lady I am sorry. Whole semester, first exam, second exam, his quizzes, his homework, everything is done, but final is horrible and I’m not speaking very well? Ok that’s fine but I didn’t speak Turkish (laugh). You should have just told me, but anyways, those kinds of things happen. I am usually a very patient person, that is my personality. You remember several students from the beginning that they will blame immediately my English if they do not understand mathematics. I call them, come over, let’s look at it. One student I remember couldn’t do it, just couldn’t do it, he got mad and he slammed the door went. I just said okay, you learn more. KELLEHER: About how often does that happen? You have encounters with… DOGRU: No, I’m talking these things in about the first three years KELLEHER: The first three years. Page 6 �DOGRU: Yeah, the first three years. After that, as I said, the students are teaching, I mean talking to each other, and one generation to another generation. I think somehow, someway, before coming to my class, they have some information about me. KELLEHER: Okay. DOGRU: So that helps. KELLEHER: Yeah. DOGRU: So I’m talking about the first three years it was really bad. But went okay (laugh). KELLEHER: Did you ever encounter anything with other faculty? Not just other students, but with faculty? Any situations that were not quite right, where you, treated a certain way? By faculty, not just students. DOGRU: Mhmm. it is very unfortunate, but yes. I witness couple of things that even today I remember very well and it hurts. But the thing is, the good part is, forget about the negative. Good part is those people that hurt me in first couple of years, they already realize what they have done and they already apologized. KELLEHER: Mhmm. DOGRU: So that is helpful. I mean, everybody can make mistakes. I can make mistakes too. But the good part is if you realize that mistake and you don’t repeat it, and at the same time, eh, make the other person think that you already know it. I did that mistake, but I regret it, and maybe not in clear words but actions helps a lot. So yes, it happened. KELLEHER: Would you mind telling us what happened? You don’t have to if you don’t want to. DOGRU: Right now the person who told this I really like and we’ve become very good friend, but without giving a name, that person, I don’t even say “he/she”, that person was kind of advising a new faculty members and we were two at that time and that person was advising the other new one and I was behind that person and I heard how advising, that person advising that new faculty member and then I approached and I let them know I was there and then same person turned back and said “oh, you know what, I’m advising that person, so let me give you similar advise to that, to you also, and then in her advice, telling me that standards was so high. Like, I don’t want to give into details, and it was so obvious. That person didn’t realize that I already heard what was telling to the other one, and then, for example if advice to that person is ‘do two of those, that’s enough,’ and then same thing, exactly the same thing and turn back to me and saying ‘do four of those, even four won’t be enough.’ That hit me very well but I didn’t do anything at that time. I like that person right now, and we are good friends. (Laughs). KELLEHER: That’s good. DOGRU: That’s good? Keep going? Page 7 �KELLEHER: Yes. DOGRU: Where are we? KELLEHER: We jumped around a bit. DOGRU: Oh we did? Okay, So are you going to ask? Or do you want me to go one by one? KELLEHER: We’re kind of skipping around. DOGRU: Oh okay then I’ll listen to you. KELLEHER: We got a little off track. I liked it. (Laughs from both) DOGRU: Well we can turn back if you want. I have time. KELLEHER: How did you… going back to your encounters in the classroom with other faculty… How did you deal with those kind of things in situations?” DOGRU: Okay, that’s a good question. Many, many times I sit down and think about it by myself. I was planning to be here for a long time. First of all, as a person I’m not a quitter. I don’t. ‘It is too hard, I quit! And go.’ No. I’m not that kind of person. At the same time, I don’t like the people step on me. I really don’t like it. And as I said just a second ago, about student, I’m a very, very patient person. First of all, I like talking. But the thing is I don’t do it immediately because when you confront people immediately, they usually get defensive and they don’t hear you, but they just try to defend themselves. So in that case, the first reaction from me is being quiet, and back off. And the, in the right moment, but I cannot forget, that’s the, that’s the thing. In the right moment, at the right time, I can bring it back and talk. Maybe some that person doesn’t except at that moment too, but at least I will let them know that I know these things. I’m aware of it. Because let me tell you one thing, , cultures are so different. I grew up in a Turkish culture, which you have to be very modest, very calm, and very… how can I say? Put the others first. But, honestly, I will say this - this culture, , translated here has a stupidity. If you put others before yourself, and if you act modestly, like for example in some of your success, here I can see people are really proud and say it. But, I grew up in a culture if you do big good things you don’t say it. Let other people say those things. So if you don’t say those things, people translate that one as if you don’t have a self-confidence, you don’t have , how can I say these things? Mean you are not sure about yourself. So they translate that way. It took some time for me to understand that. Because to be hble, to be modest, is my way of living. KELLEHER: Mhmm. DOGRU: At the same time, you are humble and modest and suddenly people are thinking ‘Ha! You’re stupid. You don’t even say it! You don’t even proud of it!’ So this was a difficult thing for me. So I am trying to balance right now. I cannot just go around and say ‘Hey look I did this, I did that!’ I cannot do that because I couldn’t, I uh I wasn’t taught that way. I wasn’t grew up that way. But at the same time, right now I realize if you don’t say it, people are not taking it very well. So I’m trying to balance it a little Page 8 �bit. So this is the difficult thing. Oh, another thing. Forgiveness also really translates here stupidity. Yeah. If you are good, well for me it’s if you are good you forgive people if they make some mistakes. Maybe they can, maybe you can give a second chance. So in that case they really translate ‘Oh, she’s stupid and she doesn’t realize that.’ But it’s not. It’s totally different. , but I do I regret for that? No. Will I change it completely? No. Because there is a saying also in English the saying that ‘Killing with kindness.’ I think it works. I think it really, really works. If you go and start fighting, if you go and start confronting, people will make the problem bigger and bigger. Instead, just let the cool down a little bit in the environment and talk to people later on may effect more. KELLEHER: Mhmm. DOGRU: My opinion, as I said. KELLEHER: Mhmm. That’s fine. , you mentioned that you noticed uh differences in the like reactions and and modesty and in forgiveness and in that kind of things. What was one of the first things that you noticed when you came from Turkey? DOGRU: Mhmm. KELLEHER: Like here, when you were first at school doing your master’s. What was one of the first things that you noticed culturally was a big difference for you that you had to come to terms with? DOGRU: For me, it’s diversity. I mean, not the feelings, but in Turkey, okay, when I came here first … let me put it together. In Turkey, we have different type of; we had to write nouns, I had been here more in fact. Uh we had over there so many different types of people because of the big Ottoman Empire. Its uh, we have European type, we have Asian type, we have Russian type, we have Russian type, we have Arabic type. I mean we have so many different features, different uh color hair color, eye color, and different types of people. And I never ever felt that. I mean, we didn’t know there was any difference until I came United States. And when I came to United States, I don’t know whether I should say this or not, but suddenly, still they were talking about ‘colored’ people. When I heard this term first I was shocked! Truly shocked! What does that mean? People is people. What does the ‘colored’ mean?! The first time I realized that there are still some differences do we have in Turkey? Oh yea. Right now we have tons of different people! But we never thought about it. We never think about it. And then later on after I came here they started some Turkish-Kurdish stuff in Turkey. I said ‘Uh, that’s not what I know!’ (Laughs) DOGRU: Because we live together, we don’t even know who is who. We just all same country people. Who cares where they from? That is the first thing shocked me here. I said, they immediately, they are still thinking about the, uh those days, and they are still thinking about the unfairness between it, and then I didn’t recognize it in the campus too much even though I heard it. But, when I came to Western Michigan, I felt it a little bit. They still have that kind of mindset. But as I said, in time, it’s going much better. Right now I can feel the difference. I hope that was the answer of… what was the question? I don’t know (laugh). Page 9 �KELLEHER: No, that was, that was perfect. Was there, you said you didn’t notice uh in Turkey everyone lives together and there a difference. You don’t notice a difference at all. DOGRU: Exactly. KELLEHER: Is there no… I just don’t understand because here, we treat people differently and it’s so unfortunate. , are no one’s treated differently there because of your ethnicity or your race… DOGRU: “No one. Because you didn’t know who was who.” KELLEHER: “Okay.” DOGRU: “Just just people. Your neighbor, your worker, your things. We never interested in where they come from. We never. I mean, we were interested in how good person is. How hard worker is. How, let’s see… how they are behaving to their neighbors and stuff. These are the more important thing for us. We never ever… well maybe I was young, so maybe that’s what. But even here, I mean young people know about those things. Sometimes even makes me think. If you guys don’t have, or if we don’t have here, just those celebrations like ‘Oh we have to celebrate that, we have to celebrate this,’ so even those emphasize. Or, so how can I say it? In school for example, uh, teachers sometimes give a talk. Saying that ‘Oh you have to behave same with this person, that person.’ I think that gives the students mind ‘Oh, we are not doing it? Or maybe it’s not supposed to be done that way that teacher is warning me?’ So this, I don’t know, I might be wrong as I, my observations is this one. We never thought about that person you have to behave good and that person you have to behave good. You have to behave everyone good! You don’t have to emphasize it so you are behaving good to that one so you have to behave good to this one too. No! Everything is same! You have to behave good to all. (Laugh) That’s it! KELLEHER: You’re not highlighting differences. DOGRU: Right, right, right! KELLEHER: Okay. DOGRU: This is a right word. Highlighting. They are highlighting here sometimes. KELLEHER: Mhmm, like with… DOGRU: Even, let me interrupt you, and this is a really interesting thing. I was hired here and many, many faculty members whose foreign origin comes from other country, they grew up here or they went to school here, maybe eh late ages and stuff. When they hired here, they didn’t ask ‘International Faculty,’ or more worse, ‘Foreign faculty.’ They never give any advertisement like that. I never applied for this ‘Foreign faculty’ advertisement. They look for ‘Faculty Members.’ But after I came here, I realize I’m already classified, separated, as ‘Foreign faculty members’ and this really bothers me and still bothers me. I still keep talking but nobody listens to me. (Laughs). I mean, yes, we may born in a different country but nobody hired me here, or offered me job anywhere saying ‘We are hiring you because you are a foreign faculty.’ Then I understand that. That means there’s a different class that they are hiring for that class. No! They didn’t give me anything separate. They are just saying ‘This is the job Page 10 �advertisement, this is the qualification’ and I applied for that. And then suddenly after I came to Grand Valley, not just me, they always call either ‘International Faculty,’ or worse, worse, worse is ‘Foreign faculty.’ Why am I foreign faculty?! I, I, I fight, I say it? Applied under the same conditions with everybody. There is no ‘foreign’ or ‘non-foreign.’ KELLEHER: Similar qualifications… DOGRU: Exactly! Qualifications is there, background is there, everything was there. They give me the same interview, uh… KELLEHER: Process. DOGRU: Yes, process, exactly. And then, they hired me! And why am I suddenly faculty member which is foreign?! That’s, that’s not good. (Laugh) KELLEHER: I just thought of… [Unclear] DOGRU: I think this helps you. KELLEHER: Oh, it does. This is great. We live, this building is two buildings down from the international housing. DOGRU: Uh-huh… KELLEHER: On campus, the Murray building, right next to Van Steeland is international housing so I just thought of that. DOGRU: So international students go there? KELLEHER: They have the option to apply to be, err, apply to live in international housing, and I just thought of… DOGRU: Why not just student housing? KELLEHER: Exactly. DOGRU: International? They already put you in a different chair. Done. And then they are saying ‘You are good to me; you should be good to that one too.’ That’s no. I’m sorry. (Laughs) KELLEHER: No, please keep going if… DOGRU: That’s, that’s it. CANCEALOSE: I have a question. You’re, you were born in Turkey. Do you have your U.S. citizenship? DOGRU: Yes I do. CANCEALOSE: When did you get that? Page 11 �DOGRU: it was a choice. It’s recently in fact because I worked more than nine years. After four, okay, let me tell you this process. After you become green card permanent resident after four years, you will be able to apply and have your citizenship. I waited like almost eight years. I didn’t apply immediately. So after eight years, I applied so I got that. CANCEALOSE: Was it a hard process? DOGRU: Not hard but long. CANCEALOSE: Yeah. DOGRU: Long, long process. Let me tell you another things, for example my brother and his family came to United States ten years ago, no twelve years ago and then they become a citizen after three, three and a half years I think. They become a long before then me. So its process is up to you I mean, when are you applying, when are you getting it. But I got recently, one or two years. CANCEALOSE: Oh, okay. DOGRU: I had green card though before. CANCEALOSE: Mhmm. KELLEHER: What made you change your mind? You said you waited. Most people wait after the four year process. What made you want to wait even longer? DOGRU: Well this, which is good, just time. I couldn’t find time to apply because as I said process is long. So you have to fill lots and lots and lots of forms and they sometimes send you for fingerprinting in somewhere. Sometimes Detroit. So you won’t have time to go there. So time was very difficult. At that time I wasn’t tenured also. I didn’t know whether I would be able to tenure or not. So I said ‘Well, just wait. Wait and see what will going, and how it goes the process.’ And then then I got tenured, I said ‘Oh, okay then let me get it.’ (Laughs) KELLEHER: Was there a time where you ever, or will there be a time you think where you want to go back to Turkey? And if... just don't want to be here anymore and you want to go back home? DOGRU: Was there a time? . Ph.D. is a very hard job, especially in mathematics, the reason I wanted to go back home and quit everything sometimes, whenever I get very, very stressed because of the work got too hard. But as I said I'm not quitting very quickly, that easy. Yes once in a while I said ‘Ok I'm leaving this things, I don't want to be doctor, I don't want anything anymore,’ that moment’s came but usually because of the work stressed. But that kind of moment never came after my PhD. I'm done with that, it’s ok. Yes work was hard from time to time but there's the expression or the saying in Turkish language, ‘I burned all my ships to go back.’ There's no way back now, I don't know does it make sense for you or not. I came with the ships but I burned them all so there's no way back. So this is my way home, that's it. KELLEHER: What made you decide math? Page 12 �DOGRU: Oh that's a long story, but this is a very classical I guess. From the childhood, (laugh), but it's true because I was really unique in my classes since from the elementary school. I was very enjoying mathematics and then my teachers usually picked me for mathematical competition, mathematical whatever we have some kind of program stuff. I was picked all the time, so that give me kind of proud and saying ‘ooh, I'm doing something good’ (laugh). And it continued, and mathematics opened me to go abroad. Opened the opportunity to give me opportunity to go abroad. So I came to United States. If I'm a chemistry major for example, or let's say biology. In those types of areas, not much foreign students can be able to find a job here. Mathematics is a little bit better, it's really interesting but when you have graduate school, every school has a different type of, let's say, math, biology, chemistry and those types of things. And especially the finance related schools, you won't be able to find a lot of foreigners in there, so you will just international, you will just go ahead and pick those schools and then people who are finding jobs from those schools, which originally from other countries is much less than people are finding jobs here, from other countries, in physics, mathematics, , engineering, those are more in here. I mean you can find a job better. KELLEHER: Why do you think that difference exists? You said it would be different if you were a chemistry major. It would be more difficult for you to find a position. DOGRU: That's right. I don't know. I think people who are here, especially in mathematics, American students, in other words are just born and raised in United States, they don't like mathematics. They say ‘We hate mathematics, we hate math!’ This is could be the reason, maybe it affects above levels, yes we have lots of American born faculty members and stuff but in big research universities, if you really go there. It's the foreign, ‘foreign faculties’ (laugh), are more over there. So that case, I think that education is from the bottom I think, from the elementary school, and especially in Asia and Balkan region and not recently but earlier in Russia. And those area are really strong in mathematics and physics and those kinds of things. I don't know, I mean I'm not education person in that subject, you know. KELLEHER: Do you think if you were still, if you were born here in the US would you still consider yourself Turkish, Muslim American, you claimed your ancestry, you still would have been able to get the same position? Or going off of when we were talking about the differences in being able to get the job and job opportunities, do you think you would have had the same opportunity to get this position or any of the other ones you were offered? DOGRU: You mean if I was born here, raised here, go to school here to prepare myself? KELLEHER: But you still practice your... DOGRU: My religion and my background and culture. KELLEHER: Right and you claimed your Turkish decent and you claimed that, just a hypothetical... DOGRU: I believe so. The reason is, I mean I don't know how good I would be at the time, my education would be where, I mean how much mathematics I would know or whether I would be able to do those PhD, asse that everything is done, I believe would the same qualification and the same time I would Page 13 �have the same job offers because those job offers or , those job posts, doesn't separate about the culture or the religion, about the what country you are from, about the you understand what I am saying? I mean whenever we search even right now I mean whenever we search some faculty position, for some faculty position, we just give the qualification and we put over there, what kind of things we are looking for in that person. And those things doesn't include their culture and their background and their religion. Those are totally different things, so it's a good thing in fact. So whether I born there whether I born here doesn't matter but all I need is match the qualification and you're what they are looking for. As long as they match I think they will be ok. KELLEHER: Will you tell us about your family? DOGRU: My family, as I said I'm not married and I don't have children, I don't have my own small family, but as a family I have my brother who is in Pennsylvania. He is the closest family right now I have. And he has two kids going to Penn state, so good. And then I have four cousins but we don't see each other much because they are in Turkey and I am here and travel is too expensive. Well you may say ‘well travel is not there but Skype is there,’ but everybody is so busy. So it's difficult. Once in a while yes in the holidays and here and there when some wedding ceremonies and stuff we call each other or something but other than that we don't want, we don't have, not want, but we don't have very close relations right now. KELLEHER: Do you get to see your brother often? DOGRU: Oh yeah, yes, almost every break, for example Christmas break and ser break. But he didn't have very demanding job before and he was coming and visiting me and I was going and visiting them but now he is working like 24/7 so it's hard for him to come but we talk on the phone. So yeah. KELLEHER: What made your brother, do you know what made your brother want to leave Turkey as well? DOGRU: yeah, I know very well because he, I don't know whether you guys remember or not, in 1999 there was a huge earthquake in Istanbul. Istanbul is the biggest city in Turkey, and in that earthquake my brother with two partners had a big shop that they were sewing and selling the coats, winter coats for man and woman. And they were sewing, it was very good business but unfortunately in that big earthquake everything is gone, because buildings are over and all the customers, the people who are buying from them and selling there are gone too, and the business is just pffff, disappeared. And then those three partners decided to separate, everybody, some of them went to other city, some of them stayed in Istanbul. At that time I was forcing him to apply for a green card. I don't know whether you are familiar with the green card or not. Green card is permanent residency in the United States. And he was applying and that year it was third year for him. There is a green card lottery every year in United States, they have some particular nber of people, for example they were saying 500 people from Turkey, 500 people from, I'm just throwing those countries names, Russia, 500 from Mexico, 500 this, 500 that. So they are making a lottery out of those applications and then they are choosing people. My brother in the third year had this situation, the losing everything. And they got the lottery. They got the green card. So he called me and he said ‘well what we going to do? Can we come?’ ‘Cause they didn't speak English, Page 14 �they didn't have money. That was little difficult at that moment. And I said ‘Well I'm here.’ I was a student but let's try. In the worst case you'll go back and start all over. And then they said ok and they came. At that time kids were very young. My nephew was 9 years old I believe, it's the third grade. And then my niece was the first grade student. They came and the third day we put them in school, without speaking one word of English, my goodness. So they came, they start with the very small thing, like my brother went and washed the dishes at one restaurant and my sister in law babysit for some people. That cased they slowly learned English, the kids of course they grabbed English very, very quick. They helped their parents, I helped a little bit and then they decided ok, we're going just fine, let's go on, let's keep going. Then they're going right now, they're still here. And my nephew right now is the third year college student. Can you believe that? And my niece just started this year, she’s a freshman. So yeah. They decided to be here too. KELLEHER: Do you know of if they've had any encounters, unfortunate encounters where they were treated differently, that you know of? DOGRU: I don't think so, no. The reason is that they live all their lives in Pennsylvania State College, I don't know if you're familiar with that town or not, that town is a very, very diverse place. So in that case there are lots of people that came from other countries. If you are in the environment, you don't feel it. You don't know that you are different because everybody is different in that case. If you call different. So everybody is han, here we go (laugh). Children of God. KELLEHER: Will you talk about the organizations you're involved in? DOGRU: Oh sure! my organizations is the Niagara Foundation. Niagarafoundation.org. I'm doing commercial right now (laugh). It's nonpolitical, nongovernmental, and nonprofit organization. Completely volunteer based and they are trying to promote the dialog and friendship, all the good things you know in the society. And they are doing these things on so many different levels. For example, this Niagara Foundation is best organization. In 11 states is included, Michigan is one of them. So what they are doing is they are having dialog dinners, annual. Almost every city. In those they are bringing all the community leaders together in that dinner. And then we have always three speakers and then we have always a topic, for example the last one was art of living together. So they give a speech on that and with the nice good Turkish food, so we just discuss those things and then we have annual again every city in Michigan. Abrahamic dinners, we put those in that case we invite religious leaders and religious communities to get together. For example the last one was in Alni house here and topic was altruism. And we invited one Jewish, one Christian and was Muslim speaker. They talked about that and we have seminars for example, on 24th, today is what? 21St, I believe it's the 24th at Ann Arbor. Yesterday was in Lansing. There are two seminars called “Heroes of Peace” so in every culture whoever worked very hard for peace, one person will talk about that person. For example Mother Teresa is one of them, Gandhi was one of the topic, and Goolen was another topic. And there are several of them right now but we can check. And then we have for example two weeks they go in Lansing we had for the woman's history month. We had woman panel perspective of all three woman leader from the community. One was senator, the other was medical doctor, and these are all from different communities and then one was dean. Those three ladies talk about their difficulties; the questions like you are asking me right now, it's very similar. So we asked those questions to them and then they gave Page 15 �beautiful presentation. So that helped for the society too. And then the Niagara Foundation, I can go on and on I don't know, you can stop me at any time. And then we can have visitation of the nursing homes, visitation of the young children stays without mom and dad. Foster care. Orphanages, yeah those kinds of places and then they help for the food banks and let me see what else. Oh, that's my favorite one which is the children's day. Last year we had it at Wayne State University and this year they are having it again. In that every single culture in the United States the children coming and performing their own dance, song, things, and so colorful and so beautiful. You can go to the website and see more. And see all the video tapes they have over there, it's so beautiful. And last year even though it was the first one, 17 different ethnic groups send their children for some performance. It was a beautiful one, that was my favorite, anyway. I can go on more, there are luncheons, fors, so many things, visitations and stuff but I'll cut if off. KELLEHER: What about the Turkish American society you mentioned? DOGRU: Very good, in fact this Niagara Foundation and Turkish American society are kind of sister organizations. Niagara Foundation more on the dialog among the societies, among the communities and Turkish American Society is more on cultural stuff. So it's going on the lots of, for example it will be soon, next week sometimes, I'd have to check the date. It will be henna night, do you know henna night? Henna night is the night before the marriage. Girl's friends get together in one house and have a big celebration. Only girls, only girls! Sorry (laugh). Big celebration and then they are culturally, represent those celebration in Ann Arbor, or Detroit, they are doing it this year. It is nice stuff is going on but not just one or two, I mean it's a lot. I cannot list them right now, it’s not possible. So they are yes they are sister organizations but their work is a little bit different. DOGRU: And then, Niagara Foundation… I can go on and on, I don’t know. You may stop me any time. And then we can have, uh, visitation of the nursing homes, visitation of the, uh, young children stays without mom and dad… KELLEHER: Foster care. Orphanages. DOGRU: Orphanages, yeah those kind of places. And then they help for the food banks and, let me see what else. Oh! That’s my favorite one which is the Children’s Day. Last year we had them at Wayne State University and this year they are doing it again and that, every single culture in United States, the children uh coming and performing their own dance, song, things. And so colorful and so beautiful. You can go to website and have more and see all those web videotapes they have over there. It’s so beautiful. And last year, even though it was the first one, 17 different ethnic groups and their children for some performance. It was a beautiful one. That was my favorite, well anyway. I can go on more. There are luncheons, fors, so many things, visitations, and stuff, but I’ll cut it off. KELLEHER: What about the Turkish-American… uh… Michigan Society that you mentioned? DOGRU: Very good. In fact, this Niagara Foundation and Turkish-American Society are kind of sister organizations. Niagara Foundation… eh… more on the dialog among the societies, among the communities. And Turkish-American Societies is more on cultural stuff. So it’s going on, lots of, for example, it will be soon, next week sometimes. I have to check the date. It will be Henna night. For Page 16 �example, do you know Henna night? So Henna night is a night before the marriage, eh, girl’s friends get together in one house and have a big celebration. Only girls, only girls, sorry! (Laughs) Big celebration and then they are culturally represent those, eh, celebration in Ann Arbor, or Detroit they are doing it this year. So, it is nice stuff is going on. But not just one, two, I mean it is a lot. I cannot list it right now. It is impossible. So they are, so they are yes, sister organizations but their work is a little bit different. DOGRU: Different targets. Okay. We, uh, for, as part of our class had to watch a video. … it was called, , 30 Days. I don’t know if you’re familiar with 30 Days. , they take, err. In this video we watched they took a practicing Christian and they challenged him to live 30 Days as, with a Muslim family. And he had to participate in the things they participated in, dress the way that they’re supposed to, eat the same food, go to, uh, , practice their faith, and it was a really interesting video to watch. And it, we have one of our questions for you was, Muslims are depicted differently on the television. And the media twists things around in almost all aspects of life. And I was wondering what your, , kind of take was on the way, uh, Muslims are viewed through the media’s eyes… if you have an opinion on that. DOGRU: Well, unfortunately you can hear right now it’s very little positive things about Islam or Muslims. Well, (sigh), it is really unfortunate but right now one good thing. I usually pick the good things. In fact, one good thing, uh, people, especially the young generation: eager to learn before decide. So, the older generation when I look or talk, whatever they hear from the media, they just have it. And unfortunately since media doesn’t talk very positive, then they have very negative view towards Islam and towards Muslims. But, as I said, young generation is little bit more curious before taking it in, maybe because of the technology. I don’t know. They know the internet, they know the Facebook. They can communicate much faster than older generation. Even me, I mean you are, you guys are much better than me. And then they are learning. And they are can reach the information easier, faster. And then they decide their own instead of uh, listening someone else’s opinion about something. Which is a very, very big plus for me. , how can we change the media? Can we do it? Mmm… not very soon. The reason is I’m saying this is a recently I learned that it was in the internet again. There is a special, uh, company. It’s really paid with the big budget and their job is create a bad media against Islam. And then the company beside this, uh, fear.inc. Fear dot I mean information is in here. So they give incorporations. So if you read that thing, they give who is donating that money, how much money, how they are working, what they are doing. And there is a huge things going on behind the scenes. So it’s very clear that there is a active, , work just, just, just to be bad publicizing Islam and, ah, Muslims. So in that case, that will be always there. It won’t go away. But, as I said, I mean, without learning, the young generation usually don’t fall into that… hole. So which is good. And about Muslims, , I cannot say all of them are nice. Muslims are, Muslims are also a han being. And there are bad ones too. There are the ones that I can’t even see and hear sometimes and I want to slap them! So, there are. Unfortunately, just looking at those people and then decide about their religion, that’s a wrong decision. In any religion. In Islam, in Christianity, on Judaism, or Buddhism, or whatever, or Hinduism, whatever you are approaching. You cannot judge a religion by looking at just one or two people. Could be those two people are not even practicing. So, but they call themselves Muslim, and they call themselves something else. And then so then the whole religion is getting the bad influence? No. That’s not right. If someone wants to learn about Islam, or Muslims, or Christianity, or Judaism, they supposed to learn from the right sources. And it is really hard, I can tell. I mean, how can you decide which is right, which is wrong? And for us, one Page 17 �good guidance is always there, as a Muslim, by myself. Sometimes some books even can confuse me. Uh, the Quran is my first guidance because that never ever changed; that’s the good part. From the beginning, ‘till now. Go to Malaysia, go to Indonesia, go to Arabia, go to Turkey, go anywhere! It’s still the same. I know sometimes it’s hard to understand. I know we have to read the translation not the real one. But still, that’s the best guidance in the moment that we cannot decide. We confused. That is, that is what I can say on that. But, of course. I mean if you, if, if you want to learn good sources and good references, you can see, I mean, if somebody who’s not practicing Islam. Somebody who’s, eh, not doing anything related to it and suddenly comes and talks about Islam. If you listen that one, how healthy is that? I mean it’s very obvious and logical. All you need to do is more, mean you can look at people’s life even you can decide, ‘Oh! That person is doing good in her or his religion.’ You know? And plus, that you said Christian lived in a Muslim family… this is a good gesture. It’s good. But to force people to live in somebody’s home and somebody’s culture, why? It’s not necessary. We supposed to celebrate our differences and our commonalities. Why do, he’s wonderful with his belief, Christian. And she or he is wonderful with his/her belief, Muslim. So why not put them common ground and let them practice that and let them practice that. We have to have a differences. We cannot put everybody in a same clothes. That’s impossible! We have to have the differences. That’s the beauty. The Niagara Foundation is in fact emphasizing this one a lot. One thing I forgot, can I go back and tell one more thing about it? Uh, when I say differences and stuff in them… we have every year, Noah’s Pudding celebration. I don’t know whether you’ve heard about it or not. Do you know? , Noah’s Pudding: everybody knows Noah, right? Is a prophet long time back, had flood, lots of animals and his, eh, ship. And then flood is gone and was everything was out and happens. Good! Very good. In that time, at the end of the flood, eh, the food inside the ship is almost finished. And they had little bit of this, little bit of that, of rice and nuts, and whatever you can think of, grains, and fruits, dried fruits and anything. But everything is little by little. But they have to have a big dish to eat; maybe the last dish but big dish. What they do is put altogether and cooked. Niagara Foundation makes it every year. Same dish. We call it Noah’s Pudding. So many different things at the same time! That dish is delicious, sweet dish. It’s delicious! So, we look at people like that! I am Muslim, somebody’s Christian, somebody’s Jewish, somebody is... uh… Hindu, somebody’s Buddhist, somebody is something else that I don’t remember right now. That’s okay. We come together and we can make a very good Noah’s Pudding. Trust me. (Laughs) Maybe I should bring Noah’s Pudding here to share with everyone. That, I should do that. You give me idea, okay! I’ll, I’ll try. KELLEHER: … going back to, uh, before the story about Noah’s Pudding, , you talked about the differences: let them practice this, let these people practice this. In the video, when you said you can’t uh, look at two people and get an idea for an entire culture, you can’t get an idea and an understanding. That’s the realization that , this man, this Christian man came to when he spent the 30 days with the Muslim family. And it was, he said almost the exact same thing, he said ‘you can’t blame (in reference to he heard a lot about 9/11 and the treatment of Muslims after that time.) He said you can’t blame a country or a religion or a group of people for the actions of five.’ And his time that he spent in, with, in the 30 days was really a way of educating himself about it because he didn’t know about it. And it was wonderful to see how his viewpoints turned and I just… DOGRU: He’s, he’s right. I mean, you cannot just go on and see a couple bad people and then say ‘oh, that religion is bad.’ But you don’t know the billions and billions of people following that religion maybe Page 18 �is good, you know? So it’s kind of very, very difficult things. , knowledge is important. If people know what is what, then they know better. In that case they won’t decide with the one or two people, obedient or behaviors. Definitely. But I don’t know how to increase the knowledge, well, that is my goal too. KELLEHER: As part of your organizations. DOGRU: Exactly yeah. Inviting people and trying to tell. , also I blame some Muslim people too. They were too closed before 9/11. They weren’t, integrated in the society. You understand what I’m saying? I mean, they were, they just lived in their own community. Which is not right. You have to know your neighbor. You have to help your neighbor. You have to say hi to your neighbor. This is Islam. But unfortunately, before 9/11, we had, well, somehow Muslim community here and they don’t mix up with others. So that was bad too. Right now, that’s what we’re trying to do. I mean because, han being is han being. If you have children, you love them. If you see something bad, you hate them. If you, if you are hungry, you love good food! Right? Han being is a han being. I mean, Mom, just think about this. Mom and their children. Do you think is any different than any other culture than Muslims? Muslims there, this country, or some other religion here in this country. Do you think mothers and children relation is different? No. Their love is exactly the same way. And everybody’s cry… One person told me that, it was really, (sigh) , I will just, I told him you are ignorant. He said ‘well I didn’t know that Muslims could sit and cry too.’ I said ‘what are you talking about!’ You are… because they are always fight? In their eyes they always fight. They always like fighters and they supposed to not cry at all. They are han idiot! I’m sorry. (Laughs) No! They laugh, they cry, they work, and they have friends, they have family. They are exactly the same. Because han feelings are the same. Doesn’t matter where you’re born, what kind of religion you belong to. Well… knowledge. KELLEHER: Do you think that goes back to how you are portrayed in the media? DOGRU: Probably, yeah. Probably. Right now is much better, as I said. Internet is much better. Because the years I came here, uh… 1990, there wasn’t much internet at that time. I mean we didn’t have, we had email and stuff but internet was totally different thing. I mean we didn’t have that kind of thing, information. At that time on TV there were special channel about the religion. Sometimes I remember in front of that channel, sit down and cry. Because of what they were saying about Islam. And I was thinking, not because they were saying, and I was thinking… people who doesn’t know listen this one and they are really thinking, Islam is this. It’s such a different knowledge. My goodness. How could they say it, but they were saying it. But right now I’m happy because, eh, generation like you, they found millions of them. And they can pick. They can decide. KELLEHER: There’s a TV show now on TLC, , called Muslims in America. Do you know that? I haven’t been able to watch it. DOGRU: How is it? I mean is it good? Negative or positive? KELLEHER: I think it’s… I think its main point; I read a synopsis about it is. DOGRU: I don’t have cable so… Page 19 �KELLEHER: I think its main point is to highlight, is education, to educate people. That they’re not, like they are hans, like you said. And at least this is what I’ve gained. Just from my little bit of reading I’ve done and watching the previews for it but… you know that they are people too and just living their lives. And that they’re treated differently just for living like all the rest of us. That’s my understanding. DOGRU: It is changing though. We have a lot of hope for you guys. Young generation and your kids. KELLEHER: Are you able to interact with, uh, other Muslims here in your community through the Foundation and through…? DOGRU: Through my Foundation. Most of my Foundation people are in Lansing. I keep Lansing very often to meet them in some kind of activities to join and everything. And at the same time there’s a very nice, uh, group of Muslims here. Uh, international from many, many different countries. They are Americans, they are Malaysians, there are Turkish, (laughs), there are some other ethnic groups but they come together sometimes. Yes I join them many, many times. Not very often because we are so busy and school. Whenever I have time. Let’s say that way. I go and join them. Especially in the holidays. We get together to celebrate the holidays. So in that case, yeah. I know them. But not every day, every night like, uh, not every week. Everybody’s working. KELLEHER: Well… I can’t think of any other questions, can you? Do you have any questions you can think of? CANCEALOSE: Nope. Not that I can think of. KELLEHER: Thank you so much! END OF INTERVIEW Page 20 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e5e944f4f1f1de1fd0969b22f37c7dd2.mp3 b61b24e9b109f1a4d4b446dcd7cb873b Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Dogru_Filiz Title A name given to the resource Filiz Dogru audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Dogru, Filiz Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Kelleher, Allison Ramirez, Ray Johnsen, Lukas Cangealos, Jaci Description An account of the resource Filiz Dogru was born in Turkey, came to the United States in 1990, and settled in West Michigan in August 2003. He is a professor at Grand Valley State University and an active member of the Niagara foundation and the Turkish American Michigan society. He discusses how he never felt different until moving to West Michigan, although the Grand Rapids area is improving on diversity. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-21 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c2c0af2a1c11063ed344b4255a34963e.pdf 0b82b6a3a6e5bc67320cc4eb5e509b40 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Kadi DeHaan Interviewers: Kelly Petrauskas, Andrew Felice, Fred Helms and Zachary Felice Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/14/2012 Biography and Description Kadi DeHaan was in a car accident when she was in high school. She lost feelings and use of her legs. She has been in rehabilitationand is learning muscle memory. She is in great progress toward her goal of walking again. She discusses her accident and how it has changed her life. Transcript PETRAUSKAS: Could you please give us some basic information about yourself? DEHAAN: Yes. first of all today is March 14th it’s a Wednesday evening at about 7PM. My name is Kadi DeHaan and I’m 23 years old. My birthday is April 22, 1988. I come from a family of four, and I have two older half sisters as well, and one younger sister and I have my parents still. we are in Byron Center Michigan. I was born in Grand Rapids and I grew up in Byron Center my whole life yeah. PETRAUSKAS: Airight, could you tell us a little bit about your childhood? DEHAAN: Yup. When I was a child I remember me and my sister were really close. We were really good friends. we always, my morn always tell us stories “You always had your sister sit there and you’d have her play teacher and have her listen” and I remember we’d always go to my grandpa’s. He had a pool, we went swimming there a lot. We’d have friends over there. in Kindergarten I had a best friend his name was Jeremy. I came home and said “Mom I met a cute boy on the bus today” and she thought that was pretty funny. I didn’t tell her what I learned, I just said I met a cute boy. And, him along with like four other friends lived right behind us. since I was little we went camping every summer, started out at the Yogi Bear camp grounds in Grand Haven and Silver Lake. LAJDZIAK: How old is your sister, is your sister pretty close to your age? DEHAAN: My younger sister is two years younger than me. We hang out a lot, yup. She’s my best friend. My two older half sisters are 35 and 31. They’re both married and have kids, but we still see one of them pretty often. LAJDZIAK: Alright, they still live in Michigan? DEHAAN: Yeah, one lives in Holland and one lives in Hudsonville. Page 1 �LAJDZIAK: How old’s your grandpa’s who you said you used to go swim at? DEHAAN: he passed away about ten years ago. LAJDZIAK: And he used to live...? DEHAAN: He used to live on 64th street which was right across the street from us. LAJDZIAK: Oh airight, so this isn’t your first place? DEHAAN: No, this isn’t my first house. We actually lived next door for 9 years and we’ve lived here for three. LAJDZIAK: Oh, alright. DEHAAN: But otherwise we grew up on 64th street and like Byron Avenue. LAJDZIAK: Airight. DEHAAN: Hrnhmm. LAJDZIAK: Want to go on to more of uh, middle school and..? DEHAAN: Yup, in middle school I pretty much had the same friends. I started playing volleyball which I really enjoyed. I was the setter. And I was just learning as I was starting but it was a lot of fun to me. still went camping in middle school I guess I’ve done that since I was a baby. I remember in middle school and the beginning of high school me and my friend Jill used to go roller skating every week at the Byron hot spot or fun spot or whatever it was called.other than that yeah we went roller skating. Oh, I remember we’d go to the mall like every Friday night too. We’d play at that Kahunaville. They had games there and stuff. LAJDZIAK: In Grand Rapids? DEHAAN: In, at Rivertown yeah, in Grandville, yeah. Actually I did that with my friend Kara. She started to become...her and Jill were my two best friends in Middle school. And then as I went on to highschool I still had the same friends then I started dating Mike Reading. Uh, we dated for about a year about a half, still played volleyball in high school. I went to the school dances. I enjoyed doing that. Really just to hang out with my friends, we’d do normal...hang out at each others houses whatever PETRAUSKAS: So how long have you played volleyball, when did you first start playing volleyball and when, how long and how late did you play volleyball. DEHAAN: I played volleyball from 7th grade until 10th grade. PETRAUSKAS: And was that the only sport you played throughout that period of time? DEHAAN: Yes. That was the only sport that I played. yeah. PETRAUSKAS: Did you play any recreational, like at home, with your friends at the beach? Page 2 �DEHAAN: I played at the beach and with my friends. Rollerblading was my favorite thing to do, I loved to rollerblade. PETRAUSKAS: Would you go certain places for rollerblading, would you go down any certain trails? DEHAAN: We’d go down the Kent trail and then I’d also go in Grand Haven just all over town. PETRAUSKAS: And so tell us about like your freshman and sophomore year in high school. Just kid of basically like you said you went to a bunch of dances and stuff, like how many dances did you guys have each year? DEHAAN: Ok. like each year we had homecoming, sweatheart dance and then prom was junior and senior year. I went to most of them ‘cause I was dating this guy and we had to go together. yeah. LAJDZIAK: You dated him through sophomore year then, 10th grade? DEHAAN: Yes. Actually up to 11th grade. LAJDZIAK: Up to 11th grade...and was he the one you were chasing. DEHAAN: Yes. LAJDZIAK: Airight. PETRAUSKAS: Hahaha. LAJDZIAK: I guess I shouldn’t move into that then haha. I was just wondering. PETRAUSKAS: So, you said you were dating for about three years or so? DEHAAN: We dated for like a year and a half. Like the last six months of the relationship wasn’t great so, like we were gonna break up soon anyways. LAJDZIAK: That was around junior year? DEHAAN: Yeah. LAJDZIAK: Junior year.. PETRAUSKAS: So what kind of music did you listen to back in the day? DEHAAN: Oh, I thought I was ganster back in the day so I listened to rap music, drover my car really fast, windows down. Yes, I thought I was pretty cool. PETRAUSKAS: And what kind of car did you drive? DEHAAN: I had a ‘97 Pontiac Bonneville. My mother gave it to me. PETRAUSKAS: That was very nice of her. DEHAAN: She got a new one. That was her old car. Page 3 �LAJDZIAK: Cool. DEHAAN: Mhmm. FELICE: So when you were driving really fast with the windows down and the music up were you being safe? DEHAAN: I would get on the highway, I was just telling my teacher this the other day, I would get on the highway and I would go like a hundred. So stupid. I think of it now like I was crazy. LAJDZIAK: Yeah.. DEHAAN: Mhmm. PETRAUSKAS: And had you ever been pulled over? DEHAAN: No. PETRAUSKAS: No? DEHAAN: Nope. LAJDZIAK: No tickets? DEHAAN: No tickets. PETRAUSKAS: That’s good for you. LAJDZIAK: Did you get your permit when you were 16...14 and 9 months? DEHAAN: Oh I got it probably the day I could get it, yeah ‘cause when I was..before I could drive I would mow the lawn and I would drive my moms car up and down our little cul de-sac here like, for hours. So I was very excited to get my license. LAJDZIAK: Yeah, kind of living out here, with all the space you could get on different things whether it’s a lawn mower or a four wheeler or.. DEHAAN: Yeah. We had a four wheeler too. (Whispering): So should I say that one day I was hanging out with my boyfriend and we got in an argument and tell that whole story? LAJDZIAK: Yeah, yeah. PETRAUSKAS: Ok, so tell us a little bit more about your junior year. What happened after you sophomore year? DEHAAN: Ok, my junior year I was just having so much fun in high school, I loved it. I hung out with my friends a lot. I wasn’t home much, I was always with my friends. a couple months into the school year on October 8, 2004, I was hanging out with my boyfriend at the time and we had gotten into an argument and he left his house and I followed, I was gonna go home. I was driving behind him, trying to catch up with him, and the road, the roads were not great. It was dark out, it was raining. I was driving, I Page 4 �remember I was driving over. I came over the hill and I saw the red light and thought “oh ,it’ll turn green soon, I can just go and speed around all these people and I can catch up to him. Well I thought wrong and I hydroplaned and went into oncoming traffic where a car hit me and I flew out of the windshield and my car blew up after that, which I didn’t have my seatbelt on which I was lucky for then So the ambulance came, I don’t remember much after this but I guess I was giving them everybody’s phone numbers like my moms, my boyfriends and I was like “you have to call them! Blah blah blah.” And so they brought me to the hospital and they got a hold of my parents...and they, my parents came down and when my parents got there, they wouldn’t tell them what happened to me. They said they had to go in this back room with somebody and my mom, she just knew I was dead. She, she just knew it because they always, they tell what’s wrong with whoever’s at the hospital unless like something really really bad has happened. So when the doctor finally came out and told my parents what happened, I broke my neck and I have a C5-C6 spinal cord injury which means, I couldn’t move my legs, my hands were affected uh, but I still had feeling. But I couldn’t move any thing. (Whispering): So do you want me to just go on, keep going into the care. PETRAUSKAS: So like how long...you had said you passed out blacked out after you came out of the car. was there a certain time you remember regaining, like, thought and knowing where you were? DEHAAN: Yeah, it was a couple days later. The first memory I have of being in the hospital is uh, one of the nurses washing my hair. LAJDZIAK: So you were in the hospital for a couple...? DEHAAN: I was in intensive care for three weeks and at first I couldn’t even breathe on my own. They had like a ventilator down my throat helping me breathe and they didn’t even know if I would get off that. LAJDZIAK: Wow. DEHAAN: Mhmrn. PETRAUSKAS: And have you talked to your parents about that first day and how they felt when they first received that call or anything along those lines? DEHAAN: Yes, I actually just talked about it to my mom yesterday actually and she said she was just numb. She doesn’t remember like the first two weeks, she wouldn’t come home from the hospital and finally when she did for a little bit to sleep she got a call from her friend and her friend was like “are you sitting down? Are you sitting down?” She’s like “what are you talking about?” And she’s like “I heard it on the news, Kadi died.” And my mom’s like “what?! I was just up there, no she didn’t.” And so my mom freaked out, hung up and called my dad and was like “is she ok?! Is she ok?!” And he’s like “Yes she’s fine, the news had it wrong. She’s perfectly fine, I’m sitting here right with her right now.” And my mom’s like “you’re lying to me, just because I’m not there!”and he’s like “no I’m not, she’s really ok.” So just, she doesn’t remember.. she didn’t even remember how to get home. She couldn’t’ even think. LAJDZIAK: How well, like other family like your sister that you’re close tO... Page 5 �DEHAAN: My sister was a mess too and I guess the first time I got to talk to her I said “Ally it’s ok, the doctor said I just might have to be in a wheelchair a little while.” And she just started bawling, but I just... LAJDZIAK: So they came to the hospital too? DEHAAN: Yeah, they were there that night, yeah. And I still had a sense of humor, I was, I told my mom I was like, before I was going in the surgery I was like “mom, will you check my nose for any boogers? Like there might be a cute doctor in there or something,” LAJDZIAK: How about like grandparents, family friends, long time family friends. How did they react? DEHAAN: Everyone was just shocked and my grandparents were up there I remember, well I don’t remember, I remember because I was told. A lot of my friends and people I hardly knew in high school tried coming to visit me, but they wouldn’t allow visitors while I was in intensive care. LAJDZIAK: And then when you got out of intensive care you came back here? Were you in the hospital for a while longer? DEHAAN: I went to Marry Free Bed for three months where, like when I went there I was still on the feeding tube, I kinda slowly got better. Like when I was in intensive care they finally, I like lean myself off the ventilator so I could breathe on my own. Otherwise I would have still been there I think. so they let me go to Marry Free Bed with just a feeding tube where that’s pretty much where I was going to live in my wheelchair. PETRAUSKAS: In intensive care I know you have a little bit of, you kind of found some humor in certain things like what exactly went through you head? What were you thinking when you kind of figured out what happened, and what you were doing now, where you were at? What were you thinking about the future? Anything along those lines. DEHAAN: I don’t think I did think about the future. I think I just thought of the moment and was just going to get through it. I didn’t think bad thoughts, like every time somebody was like “oh no!” I was like “it’ll be ok.” Like I was doing the best out of everybody so.. PETRAUSKAS: So you basically just tried to remain positive and use that to your advantage? DEHAAN: Yeah, exactly. LAJDZIAK: So basically when you came, finally came back home what...how did was, did that feel I guess? I mean obviously it had to be different but maybe you were like in bed like stuck for a while and couldn’t really move at all? DEHAAN: when I was at Marry Free Bed for a while I didn’t want to move because it was scary, like being in a wheelchair and I like couldn’t, like, do anything I thought I was going to fall out like, I had straps all over me and my mom was like “you can’t take those off it’ll look silly” and I was like “no!” Also, I forgot I had a halo for three months as well because I broke my neck and it was screwed into my skull in four Page 6 �places to hold my neck still. So that means I couldn’t take a shower for three months, I had to take a bath in bed everyday. And it was just, not fun. PETRAUSKAS: Were they feeding you through the tubes and everything? DEHAAN: Finally I remember, my dad, he would because I had to eat so many calories a day before they took the feeding tube out, so he would like pretend that I ate because he didn’t want me to be on it anymore but like even they would have me eat like a Kit Kat or something because I wasn’t, I just didn’t have an appetite. I think I lost like twenty pounds and I was, I wasn’t big to begin with so, yeah. Okay then you said after, oh yeah so coming home from the hospital was scary, like, there wasn’t gonna be all that help there was just gonna be my parents and my sister helping me, and I really thought it was, it was really scary but got through it and I just, I knew that I was just gonna just get out of this wheel chair. I wasn’t gonna live like they told me I was gonna, I was gonna do everything I could to walk again. Which I really think helped my positive attitude and helped me going because it just, just did. I remember... LAJDZIAK: Did you come back to, is this the house you were living in? Next door? DEHAAN: No, this is not the house. Yes, next door is where we lived. When I got in my car accident my dad was in the process of building this house, so he pretty much just stopped building because he was gonna have to make changes, so. PETRAUSKAS: Then what changes, and like I know your parents had to deal with the situation kind of as it came, uh and so what renovations and what things can they do to make uh, more suitable for you or for the family? DEHAAN: Mhmm..They had to widen the doors, It’s a pretty open floor plan so they didn’t have to do a ton. And then they also put an elevator in our house and some of our floors were sunken like that. Like the whole living room was supposed to be sunken so they raised that up. But, Other than that they didn’t do... They basically just widening the door ways and the elevator. FELICE: How did your daily activities change during this period? DEHAAN: During this period I couldn’t do anything by myself. Like, make meals, I could hardly eat by myself because my hands were not great at all. like, showering I needed help with that. I needed help getting dressed. Like everything changed. I totally lost my independency and I was so independent before the car accident. So it was, it was totally different but I mean I had so much support that it helped me so much. Like,my mom was there with me all the time, my sister was there all the time, my dad helped me with everything. Most people, they’ll get like a care-giving or something but its nicer with just my family helping me. LAJDZIAK: How about like you said you had a couple best friends, like are they still around? DEHAAN: Yes. Right after my car accident my best friend Jill, she visited me a lot. Like, I was able to go out on outings while I was at Mary Free Bed so she’d come up and we’d goout to dinner. My mom would come with, obviously. But we’d go to dinner, we’d go to the mall or we’d go to a movie or something. Uh, she stuck by me like, so much. We hung out like every single day. my other best friends Page 7 �were Tiffany and Kara and they came and visited a couple times but just, that was about it. I mean we still stayed friends but we weren’t like best friends like we were. Everybody was just kinda like in shock and didn’t really know how to treat me after the accident FELICE: Did you grow closer to your friends and family after the accident? DEHAAN: My family for sure, definitely. After about a year of me and Jill hanging out we kinda just went our separate ways. Like she got a job after the accident. And she went to beauty school and I was in, I was going to Davenport. (whispering) I guess this was still in high school wasn’t it? So through high school we were still really good friends but after that... LAJDZIAK: And then were you able to finish out high school.. (inaudible) DEHAAN: Yeah, I got out of the hospital in about January I think. And then I went back to school in February. Which my sister helped me a ton, like going to classes ‘cause I didn’t have like a wheelchair I could push, they just gave me one like that I was sent home with. So I needed a lot of help after the accident. LAJDZIAK: And your sister was a freshman? DEHAAN: Yeah she was fourteen. PETRAUSKAS: So she was taking care of you most of the time and was there by your side? DEHAAN: Yeah. She had to grow up fast. PETRAUSKAS: And then kind of back to more of your friends again. DEHAAN: Mhmm? PETRAUSKAS: That boyfriend you said to have been chasing that night. How did your relationship end up with him? DEHAAN: He came up to the hospital the night of and kept saying “it’s all my fault it’s all my fault” ‘cause he knew that he saw the car accident and he kept driving. So that’s why he thought it was all his fault. LAJDZIAK: But he didn’t know you were chasing him? Or just... DEHAAN: He knew it was me, he didn’t stop to help. LAJDZIAK: Really? DEHAAN: Yes. So he came up a couple more times. I still wanted to be with him but just, it was so smart that I am not with him any more. So smart. LAJDZIAK: ‘Cause it was kinda already... DEHAAN: It was kinda already going down hill anyways, so.. LAJDZIAK: And then you don’t keep in touch with him at all or anything? Page 8 �DEHAAN: No, no. Nope. LAJDZIAK: And then after...most, majority of people after high school kinda just moved on and... DEHAAN: Yeah, I kinda talked to one friends from high school but that’s about it. Made new friends in college and... LAJDZIAK: And how about them, are they coming over all the time? And do things with them? DEHAAN: Yep. Going over their house, coming over. They got to meet me after the car accident so it was nothing to them of the wheelchair. That was just how they knew me. they’re helpful. They help me in wherever I go. I have one friend John who will carry me anywhere. And then his fiancé Tara is one of my good friends. Stephanie I hang out with a lot. We go downtown, go shopping, watch our nightly shows together LAJDZIAK: Do you feel like your friends in high school treated you differently than your friends in college just because they knew you before the accident, during the accident? DEHAAN: I wouldn’t say so much treating me differently I would say we just grew apart and, yeah, it was bound to happen I think. Whether, if the car accident happened or not. LAJDZIAK: Yeah, once you leave high school you... DEHAAN: Yeah. PETRAUSKAS: And I know you kinda explained uh, that you were over here a lot and you went over there a lot. I know you guys made modifications here to suit your daily life, how difficult was it to go hang out at other places like their homes, that may not be as nearly accessible to your... DEHAAN: Well really when I get asked to a friends house I’m like, well can I get in? But if it was with John I didn’t really worry because he just carried me everywhere, then I just had to worry about if I could fit in the bathroom which is normally I can’t fit in the bathroom anywhere. So I didn’t really worry about it a lot but it was always in the back of my mind. “Is this gonna be ok? Am I gonna be able to get in the house?” so a iot of times I had friends over here but if they have people over there, I go over to their houses and it didn’t matter, he’ll carry me anywhere. So.. PETRAUSKAS: How about when you go out in public, like to stores or restaurants. How, how different is that? DEHAAN: I get stared at a lot. I get rude comments, I get really nice comments. the staring is everywhere I go. Like every time I go out I get starred at. So I’m just used to it now. My sister, she’s with me she will stand up for me. But half the time nobody sees anyone staring at me just ‘cause its be like seven years. But at first it was hard to deal with. Like I’m like “Why is everyone staring at me?” And my mom would always tell me “oh it’s just because you’re so pretty” and I’m like “yeah right mom.” Haha yeah... KADI’S DAD: Can I interject? LAJDZIAK: Yeah. Page 9 �KADI’S DAD: When we go on vacation, planned vacation, we go to Mexico or we go to Jamaica. We do have to take into account that we have to find the handicap accessible place down there so, we do look for things like that. LAJDZIAK: Would you say that in other countries its not as like access...as like...I feel like in the US I feel like most places are kinda required to have that be accessible and then when you go down to Mexico is that very different? KADI’S DAD: Well like I said, we had to look at several different resorts to find the one that was capable of handling her so. PETRAUSKAS: How about transportation like on the flights and stuff. I can only imagine how difficult that is. KADI’S DAD: I carry her on and off the busses down there, stuff like that. DEHAAN: They do have people to assist at airports to carry me on and off, but if my family’s with they’ll just carry me instead. that brings up another thing I’ve been to Russia 10 times for steam cells, that is a whole trip in itself, for not being accessible, where we go I mean its for people who cant walk and are in wheel chairs so the place is accessible. But its just a culture shock and people who are in accidents there and are in wheel chairs there they go to live in an institution because they don’t have houses there its all apartments so they don’t have elevators they just go upstairs so everybody who is in an accident is just taking away from their family and they live in an institution. Where they pretty much just don’t do anything. So yea but I been to Russia for stem cells they are embryonic..not embryonic they are my own stem cells they come from my bone maro.m we kinda check into this like a year after... 2 years after my accident. You want me to keep going on that. LAJDZIAK: Yeah DEHAAN: Two years after my accident it was my first trip there it was in june of 2006 my mom did a ton of research and I actually knew somebody who went there and was getting good results from this.. so I was like well heck yea lets give it a try, and since my injury was incomplete that means there is like a chance for me to recover. So that’s a good spinal cord injury if you could say there is a good one. That’s what it is incomplete. So yea the first time I went there they did a.. I got shots for 4 days which made the stem cells from my bone maro flow into my blood and then they did a blood transfusion to get then stem cells out. And then they put them into like 20 vials so that each time I went back I would get like 2 injections. after the first visit I was able to sweat again which sounds funny because you don’t think that because you have a spinal cord injury you cant sweat but yess, and the sun worshoper that I am it was nice to get back into the sun and not almost pass out. So after the first 3 timess.. LAJDZIAK: So you go back there every...? DEHAAN: I went every 3 months in the beginning, so it was almost like we got home and we went back again. I was also doing therapy here, in the United states. Detriot so almost 2 aand a half hours away from my house, so intense therapy 4 days a week, 3 hours a day. then they finally got one closer to my house in grand rapids. So I was doing that at the same time while getting these injections because if you Page 10 �don’t do therapy and get these injections it doesn’t help you. You have to be doing tharepy while getting them. LAJDZIAK: So I just promotes healing.. DEHAAN: It like.., how do I word this..it reconnects the nerves in the spinal cord so that the connection can go through again. LAJDZIAK: Yeah right. DEHAAN: What happened to my spinal cord it was like brusied not like cevered or anything. So I don’t know. FELICE: So does like the therapy like try to stimulate the nerves and try to get them to work DEHAAN: At therapy yes.. before when I wasn’t able to walk. like do anything with my legs. They would like walk them for me. and I would just do like core strengthening, hand therapy, all sorts of things to try to walk again. LAJDZIAK: So the stem cell what is it called PETRAUSKAS: Stem cells LAJDZIAK: So the stem cell in Russia helped your hands too DEHAAN: Yeah it held everything. LAJDZIAK: Alright DEHAAN: Yea the stem cells after about 3 trips going there. I was at therapy one day and they were walking my legs on the paralla bar like they always did and all of a suddenly I lifted up my right leg. They were like woah, do it again, so I did it again. So like my physical therapist was like try it with the other one. So I lifted up my left like and everybody was like holy crap.. am I aloud to say crap? LAJDZIAK: Yeah DEHAAN: They were just like shocked and it was like not controlled at all. But it was like I was still lifting up my leg. And moving it forward. So the walking definitely came from the stem cells. LAJDZIAK: Quickly DEHAAN: Yeah and obviously I had to go to therapy on top of the stem cells. Or the stem cell wouldn’t know what to do, so I continued that for probably like a year. With being able to lift my legs and little bit but still needing assistance. And then after so long I was able to control my legs on my own. Like I still couldn’t move them when I was sitting in my chair but when I would stand up. I was able to walk LAJDZIAK: Are you still going to Russia for stem cells? DEHAAN: I haven’t been to Russia in 2 years. Page 11 �LAJDZIAK: Instead of going to Russia your just continuing therapy DEHAAN: Yeah I’m continuing to do therapy, probably after the walking was going really good like no assistance just like walking canes. But no body had to stand behind me or anything thing. I got phenomena and it set me back a year which is crazy I never know phenomena could effect my walking but it did. And then after a year of being set back I was able to do it again I had to slowly, re learn pretty much.. my walking again. And then when I got doing really good again I hurt my back and have a herniated disk at L5 Si. I got hurt at therapy. I aslo have really bad spasms, like muscle spasms in my legs like my leg will kick straight and you cant hardly bend it those got worse when the herniated disk happened. Because my reaction to pain is more spasms, if that makes sense. LAJDZIAK: Where you at know like being able to walk... and ? DEHAAN: Ok the herniated disk happened two years ago I couldn’t do anything. For at least a year. Couldn’t even stand my left leg it was just stay straight up in the air. Like it wouldn’t stay down. I couldn’t drive...m last year... im trying to think., my years get so mixed up.. for probably a year now I have been back to being able to walk again. On Monday I walked 2 laps around the track, without stopping which is huge for me. Today I walked 1 and a half laps. Which is.. one lap is 542 feet. When I first started walking I would go 20 feet and have to sit down and then I would go more like a 100 feet and have to sit down. And then like 200 feet. LAJDZIAK: Do you get tired or is it like painful? DEHAAN: Its not painful at all. Tired I get fatigued.. more like my walking gets sloppy and ill sit down and rest and my walking will get better when I stand back up. LAJDZIAK: So you don’t use like anything to help you walk? DEHAAN: I use walking canes and my trainer does stand behind me just incase. LAJDZIAK: And you said you had a fractured disk like a L5 51 DEHAAN: I hurt it at therapy.. I don’t know how that happened.. I think I was walking at therapy and I went to fall and my trainer grabbed me by this belt I have so I was like hanging there by this belt and my back like twisted wrong.. and my parents both have back problems too so it hereditary. LAJDZIAK: But you don’t experience any pain like right now? Kadi right now no.. I did have pain I was like sweating all the time and just deprived me from walking. LAJDZIAK: how did you get phenomena if you don’t mind me asking. DEHAAN: I got sick and my lungs weren’t good I guess. LAJDZIAK: I have had phenomena too so I was just wondering. FELICE: It seems like your life has had a lot of turmoil have you offered you story to other people as like insperiation. Page 12 �DEHAAN: I feel like my story does inspire people even like where I work out these people see me for 6 years and they’ll come up to me and say like heyy your doing really good, and they notice me up there walking and when I’m not up there walking. So they say I do inspire a lot of people. Actually yesterday I went to talk a drivers training class. Talk to them about, driving in conditions either you emotions are different or the weather is effected. PETRAUSKAS: Explain a little bit about how driving ahs changed since the accident. So your able to do the old way what kind of new stuff did you have to learn to drive again. DEHAAN: I had to take drivers training all over again. I started driving like this huge bus van. Like it was ginormous and I took it in Detroit, where I was doing therapy. He said I would probably need like 20 or 30 hours of driving. I did like 10 and he said I was good because I caught onto it real fast. I have to drive with hand controls so I haveone hand on the steering wheel and one hand on my left hand does the gas and break you pull for the gas and push for the break. so that was a learning a whole new way of driving but it didn’t seem abnormal. PETRAUSKAS: And your able to drive by yourself? DEHAAN: Yeah I’m able to drive by myself. I have a van that has a ramp on it so I just hit the button door opens and the ramp comes down. LAJDZIAK: So you go right out the back then DEHAAN: No it’s the side. LAJDZIAK: So the whole driver side? DEHAAN: It’s the passenger side; you like wanna see it don’t you. LAJDZIAK: Yeah I wanna see what it looks like.. ohh the white one DEHAAN: Yea so the door opens and the ramp like its folded up and it flips down. LAJDZIAK: But you can drive right? DEHAAN: Yeah I drive from my chair. LAJDZIAK: Ohh alright so there is like no driver seat. DEHAAN: Yeah no driver seat. FELICE: How does your chair like lock in? DEHAAN: There’s a bolt that it locks in. PETRAUSKAS: And so your still able to cruse down the road with your windows down? DEHAAN: Yes haha but I don’t go as fast LAJDZIAK: How bout the rap music Page 13 �DEHAAN: Noo no rap music country all the way. LAJDZIAK: Thats what we had to listen to on the way over. PETRAUSKAS: Excuse me LAJDZIAK: Do they make a lot of cars like that? DEHAAN: They do make trucks I know. I didn’t want one of those because I hate the snow and you have to like transfer when you get in, and I like to be in and out. I know they make trucks, vans, and some people don’t have anything they just lift themselves in and they have hand controls. LAJDZIAK: Is that like a private company that did it or did Honda do it? DEHAAN: It’s a Toyota so. the Toyota van goes to its called clock conversions. They are on 68th street luckly they’re close., and they modify everything PETRAUSKAS: My question is how financially difficult this has been to get everything to par with where your at in life. DEHAAN: Yea that’s a good question. Since I was in an auto accident my insurance they pay for like everything that I would need which I am so fortunate for like there are so many expenses. They bought my van 70 thousand dollars. Like I would not be driving if I had to pay 70 thousand dollars there’s no way. luckily my parents were able to pay for every trip to Russia, which is also not cheap. So fortunately auto insurance pays for everything I need so that my parents are able to afford things like going to Russia. LAJDZIAK: When you like did the company like clock conversion did they recommend a certain car for you to get? DEHAAN: My first one was a dodge caravan and then the contract that was up and had to get me a new one. PETRAUSKAS: So of course, I think you already touched on it that you enjoy driving. DEHAAN: Yeah PETRAUSKAS: Do you like to drive? DEHAAN: mhmm, yup LAJDZIAK: And then...How about seatbelts? Do you feel like your keen on them or not? DEHAAN: Now I always wear my seat belt. LAJDZIAK: Do you tell other people to put on their seatbelts before you start the car? DEHAAN: Yes, I do. And my passenger seat has the beeper, so it doesn’t stop beeping until you put the seatbelt on so. Page 14 �FELICE: Do you think in the future you want to more stuff like talk to drivers ed classes about driver’s safety and stuff. DEHAAN: Yeah, I totally would. Yeah, I think that would be really good. Maybe that will teach them to slow down, and not think they are so cool, drive fast. PETRAUSKAS: When you driving, just knowing what has happened in the past. Do you ever think of that when you’re driving? Or do you think of anything bad possibly happening again? Or anything like that? DEHAAN: Sometimes I think of something bad happening again. Like if people try to get in my lane. I’m just like woo, what are you doing? It freaks me out. l would say my driving in the rain still does scare me still. l can’t see when its dark out and it’s raining. Everything just like blurs together. so that defiantly still scares me. But otherwise driving on nice days... LAJDZIAK: Do you try to avoid driving on days where... DEHAAN: I wouldn’t say I avoid, I’m just extra cautious. FELICE: Have you driven by the spot of the accident? DEHAAN: Yeah, and actually for a while there was a burn mark for years. They cover it up, finally they repaved a year ago...last summer maybe. Yeah. It didn’t bother me to drive over that spot. PETRAUSKAS: How often do you actually do it? Do you maybe make time out of your day and just go, every once and a while, and visit that spot? DEHAAN: No, I would say I visit that spot. But its right in town, it’s on my way in to Byron Center. So if I’m going into town, I’m going to pass it. Half the time I don’t think twice what happened there. LAJDZIAK: I got questions but he’s distracting me. how about the car? Did they junk the car or? DEHAAN: Yeah yup LAJDZIAK: How did you get hit during the accident? Was it a head on collision or? DEHAAN: I don’t know. I think it was from the back the way the picture looks. But I don’t remember. l think probably from the back which made me go through the windshield, and go forward. The side? FELICE: It looks like the explosion was from the gas tank. LAJDZIAK: What about the other driver of the car that hit you? DEHAAN: The other...it was a couple who are like my parents age, because my mom went to high school with them. They were completely fine. Except for the next day she had stomach pain. So she went to the hospital and they actually found cancer. So it was actually a good thing for them because otherwise she may not have thought anything was wrong. LAJDZIAK: Did they visit you at the hospital or anything? Page 15 �DEHAAN: You know what? I’m not sure if they did. I know they talked to my mom and they felt really bad and she was like it’s not your fault, it’s hers. So...l didn’t get ticketed for it or anything. PETRAUSKAS: have you met these people and have communicated with them since the accident? DEHAAN: No, Nope. I know of who they are because I graduate with their daughter. But I didn’t talk to them after or anything. LAJDZIAK: I would be like asking them, what did I look like? DEHAAN: No. I guess after the car accident, my face was just a mess. LAJDZIAK: Really? DEHAAN: Yeah. It was all bruised. This side of my face was all bruised. And I have a scare here from something. Maybe glass. I don’t know. This is my only other scare on my elbow. So it was almost like I flew out of my car, because I flew 40 feet. LAJDZIAK: And then on to the cement? DEHAAN: Yeah. But it was like I cover my face like this or something. I don’t know. Another weird thing about my car accident was my purse was in the front seat and my back pack was in the back seat, and the both ended up in the hospital room. Nobody knows how they got there. Nobody knows how they got out of the car. Yeah, that was kind of weird. LAJDZIAK: what about any eye witnesses or anything like that? Kind of embellish on what they saw. DEHAAN: I don’t remember eye witnesses of the car accident. I remember like my...l don’t know what he’s called at the high school...just superintendent maybe or something. He came out and he actually grabbed me off the road and pulled me into the grass. but...I know I told my mom this yesterday, you should have took a picture of my face. She’s like, Kadi I couldn’t even think. I was like, well I wanted to see what it looked like. LAJDZIAK: He kind of mentioned it, the news really blew up over this situation DEHAAN: Yeah LAJDZIAK: How did that affect you? DEHAAN: I dint know for a long time that I had died. My parents didn’t tell me. My sister didn’t tell me. One of my friends was like hey, I thought you died. I was like what? My sister was like shhh. So she didn’t want me to know. But...l think the news over reacts about a lot of things, and messes a lot of things up. So I don’t listen to them a lot. LAJDZIAK: Did they like interview you or anything like that? DEHAAN: After words...news 8 was the one the messed up and said I died. So when I started walking, I remember, the paper, the Grand Rapids press did articles about me. The news did one because for my Page 16 �21 5t birthday I walked into the bar. That was with help obviously. But...yeah that was big. So was on the news then. It actually made national news. LAJDZIAK: really? DEHAAN: yeah. Mhmm. LAJDZIAK: they really didn’t, I guess, approach your family or anything like that? DEHAAN: No. like they usually do? No. FELICE: Do you feel like your life has less privacy after the accident because of this? DEHAAN: yeah. Yeah. Especially seeing doctors. My modesty, I don’t have any anymore. LAJDZIAK: So when you see doctors? DEHAAN: Yeah, I did at first. I don’t now. But so that is nice after I could stop seeing doctors. It was like every week, I had to go to the doctor. It was so old. I just wanted to live my life and be normal. LAJDZIAK: how? l can’t think what I was going to say now. PETRAUSKAS: How about...l don’t know if we talked about this yet. your education. You dealt with the accident and you got yourself through high school. Where did you decide to go to college? What did you decide to go into? DEHAAN: I think before the accident I wanted to go to western with all my friends or something. Then after the accident I was like well I need to stay somewhere close to home because I can’t go far away. I can’t move out. So then I decided davenport. I got a full ride scholarship there, all because I wrote a letter. So that was exciting. where was I going with this? What did you ask? PETRAUSKAS: What did you decide to go into when you got to davenport? DEHAAN: Oh ok. I wanted to go into accounting. Then I took accounting 1 and it was a little harder than I thought, but I was still going to go into it. So then I tried to take accounting 2. I took it four times to pass. So I was like, after the second time of not passing, I was like I’m switching my major ASAP. So I went into sports marketing. Got a degree in that. LAJDZIAK: And then, you are now with a realtor. Did you try to look at any jobs when you graduated? DEHAAN: When I graduated I wasn’t really in to looking for a job then, because I was focused on my physical therapy. last fall I was like, ok, I have had my degree for a year; I need to do something with it or I’m never going to get anywhere. So I got an internship with a property management company. That lasted 3 months. I was doing their marketing for them. I made there brochure, I made flyers, all that sort of thing. Then he like said, “Hey, yeah, you’re probably going to get a job here.” So I was excited. He said probably just in a few months is when we will financially be able to give you a job. Well he just hired 4 more interns. So he did it that way, the free way. And I was actually on craigslist one day, just searching. I never still looked hard for a job because I needed who would be flexible with my schedule, to be able Page 17 �to do physical therapy still. So one day I was just looking on craigslist and found this part time job, make good money, doing marketing for a real estate company. So it was kind of similar to what I did for my internship, but still different. So I interviewed, and he gave me the job on the spot. And they too had to make modifications for me. Actually when I got the interview, I drove by the place and there was two big steps to get in. So I was bummed. Because now I’m not going to be able to get in, and I really wanted this job. So that is something too. If I get an interview, I have to be careful, like I have check out the place pretty much before I go. To see if someone needs to come with me or if I’m going to be able to go by myself. So I just called him and was like hey here is my story. I’m in a wheel chair, do you have a back door or anything? Can we meet somewhere different from the office? He’s like yeah, no problem. And most people would probably hang up or just say oh well I found someone else. Or forget it. Yeah. LAJDZIAK: SO you feel like, do people at your internship and your job now do you feel they treat you... DEHAAN: Oh they treat me totally fine. It just depends on the person. LAJDZIAK: Oh really. DEHAAN: Yeah, here is another story. I am looking for a new trainer to come to my house to work out. And I put an ad on craigslist. They will write me for it. I will write them my background and tell them my story, and hey, this is what I’m looking to do. And they won’t write back. So... PETRAUSKAS: How about like once you’re graduated and you were actually looking for a marketing job, did you get interview for multiple companies or anything like that? Have you ever been judged differently in an interview or anything along those lines? DEHAAN: Actually the two interviews I had, work out great. So I guess when I got judged was before an interview when they would email me back and I would tell them my situation. So I learned to just not tell people my situation before I go into an interview. And then it was totally fine. LAJDZIAK: Why do you think they would, where not replying? DEHAAN: People just don’t know how to approach somebody who’s different then you I’d guess I’d say. FELICE: When you’re out in public do you think people have prejudice against you? Judging you before they even get to know you. DEHAAN: Yes. Oh I totally...yeah. I totally get that a lot. A lot of people just don’t get to know me because they see the wheelchair. People don’t know how to act, and most of the time it comes off as rudeness to me. FELICE: What do you think they are thinking about you? DEHAAN: Well I just think that they, maybe, I don’t know what they think about me. I just... LAJDZIAK: Do you think majority of people like you said you have heard comments and people star, other than the staring and stuff like that, do you think the majority of people are just not use to the situation? Page 18 �DEHAAN: Yeah, I think so. I just think they are not use to it. And some people are, I don’t know, they like the way their friends look. They like convenience. Friends who aren’t in a wheelchair can get up and go wherever, whenever they want. I mean I can too but it takes me a little longer. And I have to think of things before I do them so... LAJDZIAK: In your job now, they don’t...medical expenses...I guess that doesn’t have anything to do with a job. DEHAAN: No. PETRAUSKAS: Or any type of benefits or anything along those lines? DEHAAN: Like what do you mean? PETRAUSKAS: Does your job offer any type of benefits? DEHAAN: No, because it is part time. So then I’m still covered under my...l will always be under my auto insurance and they will always have to pay until I am completely better. Yeah. LAJDZIAK: I have to have insurance. DEHAAN: it’s sad because if someone dives into a pooi, they don’t have auto insurance and nothing is paid for. PETRAUSKAS: So luckily this happened in a vehicle. DEHAAN: Yeah PETRAUSKAS: in that case, you were covered. DEHAAN: Yeah. Even those people in swimming accidents, go get in the car after you were in that accident because everything will be paid for. Like hospital bills, everything. My bill for intensive care was 300,000 dollars. LAJDZIAK: What’s your insurance? Do you know what auto insurance you have? DEHAAN: Grange PETRAUSKAS: Now that we are getting personal, how has this affected your personal life? DEHAAN: I guess I don’t let it. PETRAUSKAS: I know you said you friends and stuff, you kind of went your separate ways after a certain time periods or when you got to the college level, how has it affected you dealing with people every day, maybe finding, you talked about cute doctors and stuff, so how has it affected your dating life or just meeting the other sex basically? DEHAAN: It really just depends on the person like right after my car accident I met this guy; he saw a picture of me on my friend’s refrigerator. He was like she is really cute I want to date her, and they knew Page 19 �what just happened to me. They were like, we better tell him before they meet or whatever. So they told him and he was like I don’t care. We dated for like two years, it was great. some people we will date for a little bit and be like this is a little difficult, I’m not use to this. Like if they have to carry me somewhere or something. It just out of there way or something to do it. I just depends on the person. But dating for me hasn’t been more difficult. I hear people say it is, I try not to let it affect me. Go about living my life. PETRAUSKAS: So basically tell us basically where you are at now? I know your days are complex with working a new job, going through all you rehabilitation and stuff like that. How is your day structured? How do you find time for hobbies and friends? DEHAAN: My weeks are pretty much the same. Monday is the same. Tuesday is pretty much the same. Mondays I get a massage in the morning, have therapy in the afternoon. Tuesday I will be working all day. Wednesday I go to therapy, then from therapy to work until 5. Thursday is the same as that. Finally I will have my Fridays off again so... PETRAUSKAS: And with therapy, how much do you go to therapy per week or per month? DEHAAN: Yeah, I go to therapy, right now I’m going 3 days a week for 3 hours a day. It also takes a half hour to get there and back. So if I go in the afternoon it takes up my whole day pretty much. And when I am at home, I spend my nights relaxing, hanging out withfriends, or doing those type of things. In my free time and on my weekends I spend a lot of my free time doing therapy. I have a standing chair I’m constantly in because I don’t like sitting in this chair all the time, so I will stand at the counter there and sit on my lap top or watch tv or whatever. I have a bike downstairs that I ride every now and then. A lot of my time is doing therapy and relaxing and hanging out with my friends. FELICE: What are you looking to do with your future? DEHAAN: That’s a dumb question, I don’t know. My future...l’d like to travel all over, get married someday, and have kids. LAJDZIAK: So you enjoy going to Russia and like... DEHAAN: Yeah, I enjoy going there sometimes. LAJDZIAK: Did you feel that Russia was way different then here? DEHAAN: The first trip there I screamed bloody murder to come home. I was not going to stay there. No way. No way. Nobody spoke English, I was sick because they gave me a spinal tap, I couldn’t get out of bed for four days, I was so sick. I just wanted to come home. It was just crazy. LAJDZIAK: Was the food different there? DEHAAN: It was disgusting. And they yell at you if you don’t eat it so we would flushed it down the toilet. Page 20 �LAJDZIAK: I had class with him. We were talking about different free states and stuff. They were saying that Russia like not free also. Did you notice that among the people? DEHAAN: People are like strait faced, they do not smile. You could tell we were American because we smiled. They don’t like Americans. There was a McDonalds there, if was so nice for us because we would go there like every other day, because that was good to us and there food was so gross. We would pack a full suitcase full of food to eat because we didn’t eat any of theirs. LAJDZIAK: How about the people at the... DEHAAN: The clinic where we were so nice. Like you have to get to know them. After a couple times of me going there, the nurse would run up to me and give me a kiss on the cheek. They were excited to see you again. They really are caring people. LAJDZIAK: Does people from all over go there too? DEHAAN: Yeah. A lot of Greeks go there because their government pays for them to go there actually. PETRAUSKAS: So I know you were talking about what you enjoy eating. How has your diet changed and what kind of stuff do you have to do to regulate your diet? DEHAAN: If I were to gain a lot of weight, this would be a lot harder. Transferring and stuff, I probably wouldn’t be able to do it. lucky enough I can eat almost anything I want and not gain weight. Now, I don’t eat fast food or anything, I try to stay healthy. PETRAUSKAS: What kind of health foods do you eat? DEHAAN: Chicken. PETRAUSKAS: Would chicken be your favorite? DEHAAN: Probably one of my favorites yeah. I eat chicken every day, Pasta. Good protein foods. FELICE: Do you cook? DEHAAN: No. I microwave cook, that’s about it. PETRAUSKAS: So you’re an awesome cook then? DEHAAN: Yes. My mom is an awesome cook. Luckily I still live at home. LAJDZIAK: I miss home I’ll tell you that. Home cooked meals are nice. PETRAUSKAS: So I guess to try to wrap this up, maybe words of kind of wisdom or just basically kind of wrap it up give a sentence, a little blurb, what things you would like maybe changed to make things easier in your life, like stuff that is more handicap accessible or advice for someone in your situations to help better themselves and to take them to the next level to keep them... Page 21 �LAJDZIAK: Well inform people how you would like to be treated or how to approach you and things like that. DEHAAN: ok. That’s a lot, I’ll try to remember everything you said. thing that I would like changed is when going places, if they had a button to push and the door would open. Me and doors are not friends. I cannot open them half the time. So that is not fun. That’s my biggest thing. I’m always nervous to go places by myself like a restaurant or something. If I meeting someone, I will usually wait for them to get the door for me because I can’t get doors. So that would be wonderful if places had a button to push to make the door open everywhere. The way I want to be treated is just like everyone else. Don’t look at the wheelchair, like obviously you’re going to see the wheel chair, try to go past it. Get to know me for me, because I am still a normal person. I like to have fun and I’m outgoing. Yeah. My advice would be, try to stay positive. That is what has got me through everything. I never went through depression like most people do with a tragic injury or something. And what remind me to keep going every day is just somebody has it worse than me. I got to therapy with people who can’t move their arms and can only move their neck. One guy can’t even talk because his injury is so bad. People have it worse then you. For sure. PETRAUSKAS: Airight. We would like to thank you for giving us the chance to interview you. DEHAAN: You’re welcome. PETRAUSKAS: it was a pleasure for sure. LAJDZIAK: It was really nice meeting you. DEHAAN: Yeah, thanks. LAJDZIAK: I’m interested in that car. DEHAAN: We can go look at it if you want. END OF INTERVIEW Page 22 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6a50ff8394af844c4ef4d83ff361c096.mp3 89ec3be9c33451f0047aa8260bc12152 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_DeHaan_Kadi Title A name given to the resource Kadi DeHaan audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource DeHaan, Kadi Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Petrauskas, Kelly Lajdziak, Andrew Helms, Fred Felice, Zachary Description An account of the resource Kadi DeHaan was in a car accident when she was in high school. She lost feelings and use of her legs. She has been in rehabilitationand is learning muscle memory. She is in great progress toward her goal of walking again. She discusses her accident and how it has changed her life. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-14 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e39f44916cb267a4b197696c6996dcd5.pdf 21e356d985b46dc53b436cea0d00ae82 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Mark Connorton Interviewers: Brandon Gummere, Tyler Helinski, Joseph Rocco and Julio Ortega Vasquez Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/24/2012 Biography and Description Mark Connorton is a mathematics major at Aquinas College in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He discusses his alcohol and drug addiction issue and how it affected his relationship with his parents. Transcript GUMMERE: My name is Brandon, and I am here today, February 24th, 2012, with Mark at Grand Rapids Michigan. We are here today to talk about your experiences with civil rights in Western Michigan. Could you please some basic information about yourself? Your full name, date, and place of birth? CONNORTON: Okay, my name is Mark Connerton the date today, is that what’s part of it?, It’s the 24th right? GUMMERE: Yes. CONNORTON: And 24th of February, 2011, 2012 actually, and I was born in Ham Lake Minnesota. And I live here now at 16 Jefferson, in Grand Rapids, Michigan. GUMMERE: Okay, and how old are you? CONNORTON: I’m 22 GUMMERE: Alright do you, what are your parents names, and do you have siblings? CONNORTON: Yeah my parent’s names are John and Mary Connerton, respectively, and I have an older sister. She’s the oldest of the four of us she’s 27. I have an older brother, he’s 25. And I have a younger brother, he is, he’s now 20. So my little brother’s name is Pat, my older brother’s name is Tim, and my older sister’s name is Amber. GUMMERE: Okay, and do you have a girlfriend slash wife? CONNORTON: I have a girlfriend, her name’s Sarah Allen and she lives here in Grand Rapids GUMMERE: Alright do you attend college? Page 1 �CONNORTON: Yeah, I go to Aquinas College in Grand Rapids. That’s where I met my girlfriend Sarah. GUMMERE: Okay, do you have any religious affiliation? CONNORTON: I grew up, my parents, they’re Pentecostal, Protestant Christians. I guess I’d affiliate myself with the Episcopalian Church ‘cause that’s where my girlfriend and I go to church here in Grand Rapids. She’s Catholic, I’m not, but we both find kind of what we about religion in in the Episcopal Church. GUMMERE: Okay. when did you come to western Michigan? CONNORTON: Let’s see, I came here it was the fall of 2007 after I graduated from high school. I came here from from Pittsburg, where I spent the summer with my sister after graduation. so I came to Aquinas in the fall of ’07 to start college. GUMMERE: Okay, how would you describe your own identity? CONNORTON: My own identity. Okay so my name is Mark. I guess my identity would be how other people, see me. What I do, I’m a student. I’m average performance academically. I do really try to get the most out of my classes. I guess I’m pretty open minded, if you ask me to talk about something I care about what you think too. I try to keep that in daily conversations, even. I’m a musician, I love music. I have faith in God. I think that I am alive and that and because of his work in my life. And, I also I love my family. I consider them seriously , a part of my identity, and. I’m dedicated to my girlfriend too. So that’s basically my life. And I have a good work ethic, wherever I’m working, I try to work as hard as I can. GUMMERE: Okay. What are your, career aspirations, and, I guess what is your, what is your major now, what course study are you taking? CONNORTON: I’m a mathematics major at Aquinas. I’m gonna be graduating at the end of this semester, hopefully. (Chuckle) And, I, previously declared a math major just ‘cause I love the subject. I feel academically, it’s it’s really the most important thing to know just because it’s a basic form of knowledge that hasn’t changed throughout the years. When when there’s new math introduced, it doesn’t change the old stuff, it just adds onto it, and even in the hard sciences that’s not the case. Sometimes, they have to make modifications, but that’s still useful, so even though it’s academically right, I feel just because it’s been around, and it’s just solid knowledge. as far as marketability, it’s not there’s only so much you can do with just math. But you can teach it, and if you’re really good at math you can be an actuary, which I’ve looked into. And, I really, I really don’t think I for the amount of time I’d have to put into it, I wouldn’t enjoy it very much because I’m not naturally good at, math that involves heavy calculation. I’m more of a theoretical mathematician, I to work with theorems and proofs. GUMMERE: Okay CONNORTON: And so even with that, there’s kind of a limited there’s a limited market for that. So last semester I declared a, a computer networking minor. And, that’s what I plan to go into. and my background in math is gonna help me with, a lot of the the programming aspect of what goes into networking and developing and programming software for servers and stuff. but I think that’s what’s Page 2 �gonna make me marketable is my math major, not just my my knowledge of the of the field of computers and stuff. So I’m excited to go into that. GUMMERE: Okay to kind of switch gears a little bit, I know you personally, obviously. I met Mark through alcoholics anonymous slash our therapist. So we have some things in common there. But basically how would you, how would you describe your experiences with drugs and alcohol? CONNORTON: That’s it? GUMMERE: That’s the question. CONNORTON: Okay so, it’s a lot. I’ve had a lot of experiences with drugs and alcohol. But would you to me to historically, start from the beginning or just in general? GUMMERE: So I guess we’ll start out, when was your, when was your first experience with drugs and alcohol? CONNORTON: Okay so my first experience with drugs, is kind of typical American kid what their experience with drugs would be. now a days. I guess not so typical because I never I never wanted to do drugs to be cool the first time I did drugs was, I think I had smoked cigarettes once. You know? And that was with my friends just the kind of be cool and hang out. But, I didn’t really care for it, but the first time I actually did drugs, to feel good, was by myself, I remember I was mad at my parents, and my parents were kind of strict growing up. But, they wouldn’t let me go and do stuff sometimes, my friends, the wouldn’t let me hang out, it pissed me off, but. Sorry, I have to try to watch my language. (Laughs) GUMMERE: You’re fine. (Laughs) CONNORTON: But I remember one time, I I was hanging out with my friends, after school, and my parents called me and told me, that “you gotta come home now and you have to come home now!”, and I didn’t want to, I was hanging out with these girls, I was having a good time, and I wasn’t doing drugs or anything, so I didn’t want to but they made me come home, and it irritated me, really badly, ‘cause I didn’t have much, many friends in high school, but I wanted to. But, so it’s what I did, that was my way to kind of vent, I decided I’m gonna go find some pot, I’m gonna go smoke pot, and I didn’t know anything about drugs I didn’t have any close friends, who smoked pot, I didn’t have people who were all into it. So I just went to the kid in my neighborhood who I knew was the pot guy he was, he sold drugs, I just knew it. And very innocently I just walked up to his house and I was “hey man I wanna buy some pot”, and he was obviously very kind of intimidated a little bit taken back, because he knows I’m a good kid, and obviously he’s suspicious, so. But, he ended up telling me come back the next day or whatever, and, he started selling me pot, and I didn’t know this at the time but, I was actually getting a pretty good deal with these guys they were, they were pretty rich kids and they had a very good connection. And they had a house in Costa Rica, and the found a way to smuggle this pot back and they were making really good money. And because I was their neighbor, and I was kind of innocent, they gave me very good deals but they didn’t they never told me I would get, a quarter ounce, of really good pot, for 25 bucks. And, at the time this was in Minnesota where, what, where good marijuana was difficult to find, but I didn’t know that either. But when I first started using drugs, it was I was way into it Page 3 �because I didn’t have any friends who used drugs, I didn’t know what was moderate so, I basically, and this was just during the summer too, so I basically smoked pot, all day, and I, and it was mostly by myself and sometimes with my friends, because, it took a little while to be able to do it with my friends because none of my friends smoked. So I got them to do it, it would be “oh well Mark’s buying pot, if, I mean he’s pretty straight laced, so it must be okay”. So then I would start smoking it with my friends and stuff, but that how I was introduced to it, and I didn’t really realize until college. how, how drastic that change was from nothing, to a quarter ounce of pot, every day and a half, every two days. It was a lot, for personal consumption. But that’s, that’s, basically how it started, and then from, and, and, from using marijuana as almost a coping mechanism, not really for, for fun, just to kind of escape from reality, just “oh I don’t my parents” rather than talking to them about it, and telling them this is what I want to be doing. You know? I just “why don’t I just get high?” I’ll feel good, and that’s, that’s how it started, was with, with, mostly with just pot, and it eventually developed into other things. GUMMERE: Okay, and you would, you would consider yourself, an addict? CONNORTON: Yeah, yeah, in a sense that , right now, I’m not addicted to drugs. I have responsibilities I’m a college student, I have a girlfriend, my family cares about me. I can’t, I can’t be addicted to drugs right now, but I am an addict in a sense that, if I can’t control the extent to which I use substances. I can’t, it’s either that I don’t use anything at all, including alcohol, cigarettes, or, anything really, or I am extremely addicted. not that addicted, but I’ll just keep doing it until I die basically, that’s how it is with me. I can’t, I can’t just have one drink of alcohol. and this was a problem in college too, and that, and it was easy to kind of blow it off, but everybody drinks in college, come on I mean, it’s just it’s, it’s just accepted, it’s, it’s funny, and in our, in our culture that’s just, that’s just what happens. And so for me to be drinking with my friends, and and not stop until I pass out, it’s just normal, it would ne normally accepted, but if I’m 40 years old doing that. what I mean? Which would have probably happened had I not realized, that I have a problem. you’re an alcoholic when you’re doing that. You’re not you’re not having a party, you’re not having fun, you’re sitting there, you’re at home, you might be alone, you might have a family, you’re drinking, and you can’t stop, until until you pass out. And I, granted that not everybody’s that. some people, some people can have a couple beers, and be good, but the way that my body chemistry is, and this might be a result of my previous drug use, is that, I can’t, I can’t just have one drink, if I have one, it’s just “okay now let’s do some shots”. You know? And it, and then it turns into “let’s go get a fifth” and then it turns “okay, I need some smokes” and then it, and then it turns into “let’s get another fifth” and then it turns into “okay what else can we, let’s go find some blow, let’s go find some smoke.” You know? “Let’s go get some pills” whatever, that’s how, that’s hoe, that’s what happens in my nights, if I were to go, and that happened a lot in college, and it’s dangerous and it’s why I consider myself lucky to be alive. And that my life is kind of grace from God, and I’m still alive, and then able to not get back into that. And then, it will kind of build up, my resistance to drugs and alcohol. But, yeah I’m an addict in that sense, that I can’t control myself. GUMMERE: I’m right there with you, you don’t see a whole lot of 70 year old alcoholics, they pretty much die off earlier then that. (Chuckles) CONNORTON: Yeah, you basically die. (Laughs) So you have to make the choice. (Chuckles) Page 4 �GUMMERE: So I guess, in the regard, when did you first realize that you were, that you were and addict? CONNORTON: well I guess, I in a sense, I kind of, I kind of knew it, while I was going on. I guess my, junior year of college. I got to the point where I I decided that maybe, I should really focus on my academics, and my career, and my career goals, and stuff. And I could, I could control it, for a certain amount, it used to be, when I was, and I think I told you this, but when I was first starting doing drugs, it wasn’t “oh okay, when do I get to do drugs next,” what am I gonna, what am I gonna what do I, what am I gonna do “what do I have to get done first”? ? at the end of the day, when am I gonna be able to look forward to getting high. It was what do I have to do, what, what is there that, does not involve, getting high? I wanted to be high all the time, and I wanted to do the very minimal amount of things possible, to stay alive, and be a functional human being. So it eventually got to the point, where it was okay you need to get some of this stuff done, you don’t wanna end up in debt, from college, and flunk out, and be nowhere, and only do worrying about when you’re gonna get your next hit or whatever. ? So I eventually started focusing a little bit on my school work, that was when, going into my sophomore year. Then my junior year, I kind of picked it up a little, but, I, when I, when I was you kind of come to terms with it. when you really it, when you’re when you’re pleased by the lifestyle. you’re an addict, but you won’t realize it, you won’t tell yourself that. I guess when that happened, would have to have been ‘cause you know it in the back of your mind but you accept it. But I, eventually got a prescription for Adderall, because I do have A-D-D, but before I got this script, I abused Adderall too, I knew the addictive properties of it, but, I wanted the prescription just for that, purpose. So, I got the prescription for it, and I started taking, it as prescribed, but it was fun. But, I would still get stuff done, and I don’t know. I kind of realized, that, as in and out of the times where I would stop taking it, I would stop taking it over the weekend. Or when it, when it started to not get fun, that’s when I realized I was an addict. When it wasn’t fun anymore, when it wasn’t when it didn’t feel good. When it felt, (Sigh), I don’t know. It’s, it’s hard to explain. when it really felt crappy, when I was sober, and it really felt, I was just, miserable, that when I knew I was an addict. I knew that I needed drugs, at that point. I was ‘cause I remember, you’re supposed go off Adderall, you’re not supposed to supposedly you’re not supposed to take it all the time, every day, no matter what, it’s good to give yourself, I think they call them vacations, a vacation from Adderall, so that so you can think about it, not think about it, but just give your brain a break. GUMMERE: So your body can readjust to… CONNORTON: Yeah. And I remember, I remember, there’s periods of my life that are just entire years have gone by and I can’t, I can pick out individual events, but I can’t tell you when they happened, there’s a lot of my past, is just kind of blurred. But , I remember being on the Adderall and it would cause my, addictive tendencies to just flare up really bad, and sometimes, the doctors don’t tell you that which I think they really should “hey look if you have addictive tendencies at all, if you have alcoholism in your family, you shouldn’t be taking this,” because I would literally smoke a pack of Newport’s in a shift at work when I used to work at, Olga’s Kitchen, I was a cook there. and I would literally smoke, I would bust my butt I would get a lot done. In a day at work and and I was a really crappy cook before I got the adderall and then know I was much quicker the servers d me and stuff. But I smoked a pack of Newport’s and not in a day but in a shift a six hour shift so every chance I got I would be in and out but I Page 5 �wouldn’t do that if I wasn’t on the Adderall. So I would take these little vacations from Adderall and it would be it would be I was waking up from hibernation. I would try to try and remember everything that happened in the past month and I would be dough that was a month all of that all of that stuff had happened in a month that felt that was a week. everything was just whizzed just whizzing by and I remember I would just not take it for five days and I would just go back to it. It ok and when I was taking the adderall it also increases your tolerance ¬for alcohol and other certain, certain other drugs. a lotta, a lotta, a lot of college kids abuse it for that property. if you want to go out clubbing or if if you want to go out to bars whatever it it allows you to drink a lot and not actually feel intoxicated. So I guess even though I had a prescription for it and even though I did have ADD I remember, I shouldn’t have been taking it, but furthermore I new that I really shouldn’t have been. Because I used it before but I really new I was an addict during that period of my life. With the adderall coming off adderall every once and a while and thinking about dude your life is going by so fast. you can’t even remember everything that happened and granted yeah I might have been being really productive which is what you do when your, normal people what they do when their on adderall. But I didn’t I was a robot and I remember my girlfriend telling me . She thought it was a good idea originally for me to get on it because I had a hard time focusing. But she would tell me your a zombie I don’t, I don’t, you have no personality and I was okay with that I get all my stuff done all my homework done and work and I still get to party at night. it’s it works its fine but really if that’s if your not you what’s the point of you being a live. if you don’t have your own identity if if the substance makes up your identity and that’s how you get everything done you have to depend on it. that’s that’s called being an addict and that’s what I realized. GUMMERE: When did you say describe your kind of the beginning of your use when would you say your use picked up to the point where started to know you needed to make a change? CONNORTON: Oh yeah GUMMERE: When did your use really start to escalade was there a point where you kind of you know? CONNORTON: Yeah. Well I think there was a lot of low points in my life that I should have realized it but I didn’t none of them was strong enough so well one of them was but none of them were strong enough to get me to really say alright your not nothing you really can’t, you really can’t do this anymore. it’s not you’ll die you shouldn’t I’ve been arrested I used to steal stuff to get money for drugs and I was, I was I was charged, I was charged for that I’ve been I almost died a couple times. just from drugs but I mean I wouldn’t say almost died but I’ve been in very dangerous situations and I put my body in very in extreme conditions with substances. but really the main thing that, that made me stop with everything it happened a year ago last September so it happened about about a year and a half ago. GUMMERE: This would be considered your rock bottom, I guess? CONNORTON: Yeah. This I guess so I mean I guess so yeah I mean at this point in my life as far as as far as my drug use it really wasn’t the rock bottom. But but but just what happened to me and my, my lack of respect for the fact that I don’t have self control with chemicals lead to this and I’ve been, I’ve been, I had been at that time I had been worse with drugs I had been using marijuana every, every day all day, not every day, all day every day. that was the worse incentive sleeping and eating that was all I did. Page 6 �there have been times where that was my life. Or if that was pot or what ever at at night then you start drinking and then once I started drinking it was that opens it up to anything and when people ask how many drugs have you done. And I’m dude how why that’s the incorrect question ask me how many drugs I haven’t done. What types of drugs have I not done then I can actually count it. what I mean? But at this time in life this was this was Sept…September 2010. Right, yeah September 2010, I still have the police report here I can show it to you if you want it’s kind of embarrassing. But this was when I was on the adderall and I was really really allowed me to get a lot of stuff done with my studies. But my personal life was not there. I had no friends my relationship with my girlfriend was just that of I don’t know just daily productivity. what are doing today how can I help you get your things done? The weekends it was lets study I didn’t, or I’m going to go drink with my friends it’s either I wanted to do drugs or I wanted to I don’t be as productive as possible. It was weird it was extremes, but it was a Friday night and I hadn’t been taking the adderall and my girlfriend she said that her plans were to one of our friends she knows her through work. They were going to go over to my girlfriend’s house and hang out. with her parents or something that they had plans to do this and it was this girl thing. And I asked you want me to come over I can watch a movie later. Or whatever and then I think her parents ended up saying something about I don’t know it was a girl thing or something that. So I decided okay well I decide to go get fucked up what I mean. So I decided I was going to take some more adderall I went to go see her, I went to go see her at the on campus at the coffee shop first. And we talked for a little bit and she decided yeah go ahead do your thing, we’re gonna, we’re gonna hang out tonight so I’ll see you tomorrow or whatever. So I’m cool I’m I can do whatever I want I’m not gonna study tonight, so I decided I was gonna take another adderall which I had already taken one that day and this is a routine thing for me. sometimes I would take three or four of them and they were I forget how many milligrams they were that’s not important. Anyways so I took another one and I’m feeling freaking just, (deviated from interview) my cat you just gotta be rough with him. He’s used to that otherwise he’ll just do whatever he wants and stuff. You can hit him or whatever, he’s ridiculous. Ok anyways I decided I was gonna take another adderall because that would allow me to drink more and I called up my buddy I did have some friends whose existents in my life was solely for drug use not not some for the purchase of and some for the consumption with I would want to get intoxicated with them. And so I came over there at this point I was buzzed and it was a little at this point it was little bit difficult for me to get stoned from adderall just because my tolerance was so high. It was I had to take it no matter what right after I left campus and I was going to go and see what was, and I hadn’t this in a long time I was actually Pretty studious and with the quantities that I took. But so I went to go hang out with them any way’s this is taking to long. So I we went out we gotta liquor first we got a fifth of Jameson and I drank it with him in probably half and hour. just back to back and we took shots and then I decided I’m smoking habitually heavily at this time even though I had quit at that point I had quit for a long time I hadn’t smoked in three months, but I started smoking on this night. And then I decided I was going to find some drugs, I’m gonna find something. So I’m asking people around and somebody came over to his house and he had mushrooms, so I’m sweet yeah lets do some mushrooms and everyone’s all they didn’t really even want to do them. I was yeah I want to do some mushrooms so I bought a quarter from him. And a quarter ounce and I just, I just started eating them and the guy was dude you shouldn’t eat the whole thing that’s a lot and I actually I hadn’t had mushrooms probably since high school. I did them once in high school, I think I ate a whole bunch of them went to school and I we watched some video in class and I Page 7 �just had to leave. I left school I was just gone and that’s all I remember of mushrooms and I don’t really remember my trip or anything. So I decided I just kept eating them and I ate a whole bag of them. And I couldn’t I’m not gonna feel them right away they they take a while to kick in and I was drunk so I didn’t really care anyways it had to have been cocaine or something I would have used some self restraint. Because you feel that immediately but with mushrooms it’s whatever I’m just eating it’s eating pizza or whatever. you don’t really care so yeah I ate the mushrooms and then we we decided to go to this party I got another fifth and the other fifth that was for me nobody was and it was another fifth of Jameson. And I was just pulling the, pulling on the bottle and was swigging it. And I was I mean straight out of the bottle. So are we good is it. GUMMERE: I’m just making sure it’s recording your good CONNORTON: So then we’re at this party and after drinking almost finished the fifth, I started to feel the mushrooms and stuff. And I was I was wow I felt this was probably, this might have been one of the most one of the times I have been most intoxicated. Because it was pretty those of some weird, that’s a weird kind of combination. adderall, mushrooms, alcohol, nicotine and then at the party I had pot too. when we go there we started smoking a lot of pot. And, and I kind of remember kind of feeling really disorientated and feeling there was something else I should have been doing, I was walking around outside, these are the last, eventually I blacked out, but I’m trying to tell you the last things that I remember. And so I was walking around outside and their were people on the porch and we’re people were we were having a good time at this point. And I just felt I don’t know I felt I was having an out of body experience. I needed something to bring me back. So I decided I’m going to smoke a cigarette now. And that’s the last thing I remember that, that I did. I smoked a cigarette actually I took a couple drags, I took a couple drags and I was and blew it out and I don’t remember anything. I remember felling really weird the nicotine and then wow, it was just black. I passed out, but apparently what happened, what people tell me is that I just took off I took off running. I started running as fast as I could and I don’t know I don’t know where I could have been running to but I was, I was running really fast and I was freaking out. And I mean I have the police report you can look at it if you want it’s pretty embarrassing but that’s what happened I totaled lost it and I just, and instead of just passing out I went into excited delirium I just was screaming I was running all over the place running through people’s yards, hopped the fence and was running around in this outside in this retirement facility or something that. I was going through people’s yards and stuff and eventually somebody called the cops, the cops came and they they commanded me to stop, I wasn’t doing anything illegal I was just extremely intoxicated and I was running around and screaming a freaking crazy person. So and I don’t remember any of this by the way this I’m going off of what was on the police report. And the last thing I remember was the cigarette. And so there are some accounts in the police report about what people saw apparently I picked up a dumpster, a garbage dumpster and threw it on somebody’s car. I don’t remember any of this but so the cops came and so when the cops were trying to detain me you have to stop you can’t move and I wasn’t showing any sign of submissive behavior at all I was screaming I didn’t want to and I talked to the cop afterwards and he said this was days afterwards, but he said that I wasn’t trying to attack them but I would not go into custody. I wouldn’t, they had to use tasers he said that well actually he didn’t tell me this but this is in the report, they had to use tasers three times, they had to tase me three times to get me to actually be contained. have my hands around my back and everything. And they said that well Page 8 �this is what happened, but they, they were, there was three guys and they were struggling to get me into into custody. And when they finally got me in handcuffs I was trying to get out so hard, so badly I wanted to get out I dislocated my own shoulder. I popped it out while it was behind my back and they didn’t know this at the time, I guess. But and I think at that time, I passed out and that’s in the police report. Yeah I passed out loss conscious I was still breathing still had a pulse, but I was unconscious. And the cops said that they thought I was suffering from excited delirium which is were your body pressure keeps heating up and heating up and heating up until you die. Which I don’t know if that was happening, I don’t know if it was that, the drugs might of induced that. I don’t know probably maybe it wasn’t happening maybe I was just having a violent reaction to the mushrooms and all the other stuff in my body. But they took me to the hospital instead of taking me to jail because of that. So they took me to the hospital at the hospital, I was recovering, I don’t remember any of this either. Actually apparently, apparently one of, this is what some of the nursing staff said that when I came into the hospital, by the time I had came I had come to, I had regained consciousness. And I was violently trying to get out of this stretcher they had to put restraints on me and stuff and and I was being very violent and using obscenity’s and just being nuts psycho. And I don’t remember any of it, I don’t remember any of this. So and also my shoulder was dislocated which extremely painful and I was still going nuts. I couldn’t feel it and I can’t remember it. But when I was in the hospital I remember finally coming to and okay I’m in a hospital. Everything’s fine I was I thought was I’m alive and that’s okay. Because the vague memories that I do have of freaking out are utter hell it felt, if I were to imagine what hell would be that’s what that’s what it would be. it was, it was really bad. Was that a phone or was that the recorder. So I was just for it to be done. Basically and I came to and remember being in extreme pain they were giving me morphine and stuff. So I was feeling but when I wasn’t on the morphine I was just ahh, just ugh. whining and what I mean ugh and grunting and stuff. so they, they eventually realized that my shoulder was dislocated and put it back into place and everything. And then I guess after that event I realized that I should have been dead. I really should have been dead that day. And I realized I should probably, I should probably do something with my life. I shouldn't first of all I should not use drugs anymore first of all I won't take the adderall anymore and I won't ... ....when I tried; up to that point I tried to stop smoking pot it would be it would a.... a. It always every other day type of thing when I was in college at least that that much or if not every day or ..... in the beginning of college it was just as bad as it was in high school all day every day, but when I tried to quit smoking pot it was it was always I always wanted the last time smoking pot to be memorable or the last time the last time doing blow or whatever the last time on pills I always wanted to be memorable so that would be ohhh yeah have a positive memory or something or at least something to send me off do what I mean. But I never did it was always crappy the last time it was. I wanted to be and I always ended up come down and be ohhh man that wasn't enough I need to do it again that that was my thought was .... but after this event I just realized that....that I should of been died and that was enough I needed to do some my life I have been granted to me because I really really should of been died and another thing involve this even was that the same night not even kidding I got tased three times and I was I still having a violent reaction still violently aggressively not wanted to be detained and ahhh the same night in Indianapolis which is my home city a kid died he got tased and he died he was he was shot with a taser and he died the same night so it's kind of. Just a creepy thing for me and a realization that ...that that my way of living and my way of resp.... not respecting my limitations substances it's just just silly just not ahhh I don't know it was gonna lead to Page 9 �my death. I kind of realized that I was gonna die that's what it took that's what it took me avoiding death that was wakeup call and then I realized that it has to be a god up there somebody had, something or someone had been looking out for me, because there are so many things I could of been doing I remember car lights I could of. I don't know I could of been in a high way or something I don't know man but that was what it took mm it was a near death experience for me to realized that I needed I needed to turn it around if I didn't want to die. GUMMERE: Describe that feeling I mean I don't think a lot of people ever experience the feeling that, I could of realistically kill myself right there. Describe the feeling you get knowing that kind how push you to get sober I guess ...is that? CONNORTON: I don't know I guess I'm motivated by the people around me and the the the goals that I have in life because once you ....I haven't really talked about this before but once you have that experiences were you you could have died and really you should be died there is not much that can happen to you that you are not gonna be prepare for; what I mean, I I know what death feels when I was trippin and the stuff that I don't remember if I can try to explain it to you it would be everything. Not just my vision but everything was black everything and in my head everywhere was black and then and then there would be a tiny little spec of light a white dot that I would try with everything with every ounce with every measurable of whatever energy that I had in my body try of seek out that light and just just really try to get to it and then getting closer and closer and this is funny I was probably running my ass off (Laughs); trying to get to the light of whatever its sounds totally abstract and stupid but then I would finally get it and then get bigger and bigger and bigger and then everything would go white everything is white now but I still feel so lost and need to get back to where a a normal place is and then it would be a little black dot and then it would be the same thing over and over again just agonizing and it wasn't I need to the black dot it was . Not only would I be died but everything would just see to exists if I don't seek this thing out with everything I have and finally get to it and have everything normal again; but then once you finally get there it just something is also completely abstract and abnormal but the near dead experience is . Once you are alive after it, you just appreciate being alive more for the good things in life ... you really think about all the consequences of what you do and the benefits of what you do, you know why, you try to look back and think what I my motives for everything I do, why am I alive you think about live little more and I kind of look at it as a positive experience because first of all if it wouldn't happened in that way I'm sure down the road if some other crazy things would of happened and odds are that I would of died from a serious drug overdose. Because by the way my ahh my my drug alcohol level is it was point .22 something so, it was pass .25 so if I would gotten to. If I would being in the hospital, I probably would of died because I was running around randomly. I might not died from the alcohol poisoning but I mean it would of done some serious liver damage but I probably would of passed out somewhere in a ditch and I would of die ...... or any other things could of happened; hit by a car whatever start a fight with somebody or whatever, but I forgot where I was going with that. But but I don't know once you realized that your life is been spare you really start to look at all the aspects of your everyday life who are you helping. You know? what good are u doing for for greater human population or even just your family; who you have around you that that that cares about you that you would to see. ? prosper and then you want to take care of or something that just you need to look at your goals more. You know what I mean? it's not just I should of do this I better go to college I better get Page 10 �a job it's . Why? why am I here why. There has to be a purpose for my life now because I really should be died why am I not just died instead of being alive right now. I have to be doing something and you think about what it is that you should be doing and for me I found guidance through prayer and a read the bible I find a lot of wisdom in there specially in the words that Jesus actually said but that's that's just for me that's my thing I still respect other religions and what not but but I just kind of a desired to just be a good person to be good because otherwise you only serving yourself and that is just pointless I may as well be dead (Laughs) what I mean what what. If you are not helping people who are really in need or who are really suffering or want to live they are on such at risk of dying what's the point of what's the point of you being alive in access what I mean? So you tend to a ....think to think about that stuff a lot more and you. Also we were saying it prepared you for anything really. my girlfriend always tells me when bad things happened to us I'm always okay what do we do now; instead of ohh I can't believe this!! are you serious? this has just happened (Laughs). I'm always ohh that is terrible that is just bad okay. Now what is the course of action that we must take. Because, okay I'm not getting torture and I'm not dying so now just solve the problem (Laughs) that's . So it gives you a different perspective I'm not saying that it's necessary to I mean everybody is different what I mean everyone finds their purpose of life . for me it might be that. I'm not stupid that I really had to used this drugs for that long for me to realized that I need to respect my limitations with that and there is more to life just than self indulgence in control substances you know what I mean? So I guess that what it meant for me the near death experience. GUMMERE: Okay. Being 22 years old and been in recovery drug addict/ alcoholic. you don't see that too often unless you go to places AA what I guess specific challenges do you young addicts face; would you say somebody who older doesn't necessarily have to deal with certain specific challenges that you say? CONNORTON: Can you say the first part of the question again? GUMMERE: Basically just what unique parts are there to be young and being addicted than to be old and being addicted. Is there anything different that in it that makes it harder. I mean for me instance it's just the fact that people our age you said they party it's what they do so it's hard to kind isolate yourself from that. CONNORTON: Okay I just have to use the bathroom really quick and then I can answer that. GUMMERE: How do you pause this thing? CONNORTON: You don't have to pause it don't risk deleting it. (BATHROOM BREAK) GUMMERE: Dude, I'm sorry but when you were on the roughest part of it and your cat turn the sink on and off; I was amazed by that so I was smiling (Laughs). It wasn't the fact that you almost died (Laughs). CONNORTON: He wasn't turn in it on he drinks little bit out when he licks the area it pisses me off so bad; I hate him for it and every time he does it I make this psst don't do whatever you doing or else you gonna get hit and the he keeps doing it that's the one thing that he just keep doing its just worth it for him. Page 11 �GUMMERE: Alright, actually we will. We are gonna change the question. CONNORTON: Still recording it? GUMMERE: Yeah CONNORTON: Okay GUMMERE: Just regardless. Next question would be. Did you drug use cause your friends and family or people in general for that matter to treat you differently? CONNORTON: Yeah somewhat, I guess at first not; not at all because they didn't know because I was really really good at hiding it, there is precautions that you take. Specially if you smoke a lot pot. you heard at lot of teenagers talking about this, you need to get your visine, you got your gum, mouth mints, you got body spray, nobody would not known you are stone man; you are good, or you can still act high; you can. I can be looking someone and be yeah you are stone unless you are me when I was starting smoking I actually got developed to the point where ; my little brother he knew he knew I smoke. He was the only kid in my family that caught me couple times he knew I smoked pot he would. Honestly, he could not tell whether I was stone or high because I was stoned so much more often than I was sober. ridiculous somehow. So that was normal when I was stone that became my personality that was me. So at first it was a long time it was 2 years probably that this. Well maybe not that long maybe a year and half because I started smoking ahhh . This was late I started smoking my junior year, which is actually pretty late for Americans but my parents didn't really catch on to it until after I starting abusing alcohol and pills and stuff too. So once they figured it out they immediate attitude towards it was extremely ahhhhh; they were aggressively towards solving it they wanted it to not be happening to me anymore and any degree what so ever. Ohh and they were really strict about it because my cousin had ahhh fallen into drugs abuse patterns and die he was he would be I think he would be my older brother's age right now but he died when he was 20 years old so they it's in the family to be really protective about that kind of stuff, and their reaction to that to that forced me into more drug use because I was get off me I just want to be in my own world . My friends didn't act different towards me because they were the ones I was doing drugs with and they think they acted better around me if I was the one who came through you I was the best the coolest guy . Yeah actually I remember the time this is how pathetic drugs serious being drug addicted to drugs is, my friend and I had this falling out and ahh and I think it was over a it was either a quarter pound or just quarter ounce of pot that we end up adding up together and it was just gone we lost it we thought somebody stole it and we thought it was one of us. So we had this falling out and we didn't each other at all and then the other two of them two two of my friends they started hanging out again and it was ohh we just hate those guys we don't each other anymore we suppose to hate them or whatever but then one time I got hooked up really good with some ecstasy and I have ten of them and I got really good prices of them and I was yes! and . At first it was I'm going to be the one who consumes this, this are mine but my friends found out from somebody else that I have them and it was Mark is awesome now he is so cool we love him and it got reunited our friendship (Laughs). after that we started doing drugs together all the time and just hanging out that's what we did we didn't hangout we got together and got fucked up that was our life but my family got really concerned after awhile yeah they didn't act different towards me they didn't they didn't it Page 12 �completely changed their interaction with me it was a totally different setting. It was what are we gonna do to get you to come back to reality, and stop avoiding everybody and being so reclusive, and not caring about anything, ya know, there was no, they didn’t act differently to me it was completely changed. It just changed the whole game ya I guess so yes they did, but it was just, it wasn’t normal interaction it was they weren’t my family anymore they were just these people who were trying to get me to stop using drugs they weren’t my brothers they weren’t my brothers they were they were just people who were really concerned about me, we never just hung out for fun. It was what are you doing tonight, what are you gonna go do, are you gonna sneak out? Ya know so ya they were my family in that they cared a lot about me, but it, our interactions were not normal interactions anymore. Once they finally realized I had a serious problem which was a year and a half after I started using drugs. But if you want I can quickly answer that question that you had before. GUMMERE: Sure CONNORTON: I can’t really say how versus being an older person addicted because I’m not I don’t, I haven’t been there and I’m, I think younger people in a sense, if they are younger people who realize they have a problem and admit to it which is AA would tell you that that’s the first step towards defeating addiction is admitting you have a problem and really they view it as admitting defeat saying that you are helpless to help yourself you can’t do it, you need assistance, you know what I mean if you’re at that stage in your life and you’re a younger person that’s awesome, you are way advantaged compared to older people and we’ve seen this at AA going it’s look at all these guys the AA meeting does not become I’m sure they talk about a lot what’s going on in their lives and how they want to, what they want to pursue to avoid circumstances where they’re not drinking what do they want to do, but when younger guys are there, it’s about them. It’s what are you gonna do and it’s it’s a lot of the conversation is directed around the younger people because even when the older guys are talking about themselves it’s that’s knowledge that you can use to not make that mistake you know it’s not that I’m a better person because I realized when I was so younger that I am addicted, No. It’s that you’re lucky enough to have your life spared you should be dead and now you are also lucky enough to go and hear what these people have to say about their own problems and what their own addictions have led to ya know as a younger person yes you should be participating in that but also, and I would guess if your addicted to drugs and you’re an older person you have many more responsibilities it’s probably very agonizing to see your family, it’s not just your brothers and sisters, it could be your wife, and your kids and not only are they agonized to see you in the condition that you’re in a lot of the times but your agonized because they have to see that I can’t imagine, I can talk about it but I really probably should be because I haven’t experienced it but also I can say as far as being a younger person that’s addicted is that ya it’s so normalized in our culture and it’s almost shunned if you want to get help ya know because in the college culture drinking, partying it’s a normal thing and I’m not saying that it shouldn’t be but for some people me, and I think if this is hereditary thing, substance abuse, alcohol abuse is hereditary, but it’s not okay because when I start drinking ya binge drinking is accepted on college campuses because it’s the cool thing to do, but for me binge drinking is regular drinking every time, that’s just how I am, I can’t it’s not because everyone else is doing it and I want to be cool, it’s not because it’s fun. It’s because I started drinking. Binge drinking is because I had one shot, that’s just what happens next I am going to keep drinking until I pass out or until I feel so good that I can whatever I don’t even a lot of kids Page 13 �have their minds on getting laid I don’t even care I just want to keep getting intoxicated if it just so happens some girl wants to get high or something and then we end up having sex whatever that’s cool but I’m not going to go out of my way to go and find a girl, I just want to get intoxicated that’s what happens in the life of an addict ya know what I mean so but, but that’s a normal thing, you wouldn’t be able to tell somebody who’s addicted to drugs from someone who is just partying, you can’t there’s still just selling drugs, using drugs, drinking, whatever its normalized so you really, it’s difficult to get anywhere until your realized you have a problem, but also for younger people in my situation vie been in a lot of places where its accepted, it’s almost culturally normal you should be drinking right now its new year’s eve someone’s making a toast, but I don’t drink, I’m sober I haven’t had any alcohol for coming on two years so but I’m cool around my family but with people I don’t know it’s ya cheers with my water glass ya know and its weird. I’ve gotten over that and trust me it’s not, it’s not bad that is anything compared to being addicted to drugs that’s nothing, those awkward situations and then people might question you oh really, so you can’t control yourself? Ya know you can’t you don’t trust yourself, what kind of person are you well I’m an addict, that’s how it is, that’s in my genetics ya know you get to the point where if you have a problem with that I really don’t care because I know that I should be dead and I’m not gonna it’s not the person is trying to get you to use drugs, there just trying to, I don’t know some people just don’t understand ya know they just say lighten up, just have a drink, but you don’t understand if I have a drink either you or me is gonna be in the hospital tomorrow and were gonna wake up, ya know it’s not gonna be fun. It’ll be fun at first but at the end of the night it’s going to be ya so that’s what’s difficult about being young and being an addict. GUMMERE: We’ll prolly wrap up after this, but basically what would you tell a person that has this problem, and hasn’t sought help yet? CONNORTON: I guess I would say keep doing what you feel is right but I guess you’re not concerned with that but don’t wait, don’t wait for something terrible to happen because it’s bound to happen it will happen, it’s going to happen. Continue using drugs and watch all the bad shit happen to you your life will, it’s gonna suck, you’ll feel great, you’ll feel awesome all the time but in reality everything is terrible around you, everything is terrible because you’re not paying attention to anything you don’t care about anything but the way that your body feels, and the way that you perceive your body to be feeling the chemicals in your head, that’s all it is, when your high, when your stoned and everything is alright, it’s just a chemical in your head ya know your family could be dying and you wouldn’t care as long as you have your drugs eventually you will get there, eventually you will get there and I’ll say that addiction doesn’t always happen right away, it doesn’t always happen right away, sometimes addiction starts with self-control when I started smoking, when I started smoking pot no it was immediate it was right away, it was now this is what I’m gonna do for the whole summer this is my life now, this is awesome but with cigarettes I knew it was bad for you, cigarettes are bad I shouldn’t be smoking cigarettes but I would only smoke once every weekend or whatever, and I could control myself, for a year I only smoked on the weekends ya know it was a long time, but eventually you will get to the point where your tolerance will go up your desire to use it is gonna go up, it will you will want to use it and you will give in, youre a human being your just chemicals in skin. the laws of physics say that you are gonna want more of what you have that your body s, you’ll get addicted to it, (laughs) it eventually happens, and my little brother started smoking a little while ago, and he was the same thing, I basically just beat the crap out of him, Page 14 �(laughs) you can’t just don’t, I only smoke this, I only smoke this time. No. You’re gonna get addicted to it, and that’s the case with other drugs. if you start using any other type of harder drugs, and its fun, and you it. What do you think is going to happen? are you going to be using those drugs for the rest of your life is that what you want eventually you will have to stop using it. do you wanna, do you wanna be the person who has to quit pills when you’re thirty years old? And you have a family, or you’re thinking about starting a family. Can you imagine how addicted you will be at that point? And also this is especially important but what, name one benefit. What are the benefits to using drugs? Other than it feels really good. it feels really good. I’m not gonna lie, it feels really fucken good, drugs they feel really good, they will make you feel great, but that’s the one thing. Name one other benefit, anybody. Okay so it costs money, you will deplete your funds. If you’re really addicted, that’s all you will spend your money on, and eventually you’re gonna go broke. Okay, and number three, or wait this is only two things (laughs) See what it does to your brain, man? (laughs) Okay, so number two, ya it has physical effects on your body, you’re gonna, you’re gonna deplete, your body’s ability to sustain itself. It depends on what drug, but that’s widely accepted you’re gonna hurt your body. the people you surround yourself with, not just the dangers that substances does to your body, but the people who are surrounded with drugs, they’re bad people, people who make a living, not all people, but in general people who make a living surrounded on other peoples addictions are ad people, and you’re gonna put yourself in dangerous situations. And then number four is is this number three or number four? Okay, it doesn’t matter what number it is, but this is another thing. You’re addicted to drugs so you are subjecting yourself to your own desires. you don’t realize what you will do to get that substance. once you start using it recreationally. It’s fun, and you got money, you can go get it, it’s fun, I can go do it with my friends, but what are you gonna do five years from now when you’re broke because you spent all your money on drugs, and you need it, you will need it, your body will want it so bad. that’s your life; you’ll want it so bad. It’s the only things that is important. so what are you gonna do? What crime are you gonna commit? Who are you gonna hurt? Ya know? not just the effects on yourself. when you say who am I hurting by doing drugs? Okay well you’re hurting yourself, but that person might say “Okay fine let me do that to myself” who might you hurt though, who might you surround yourself with that has what you want? Ya know what I mean? Or is there other people around you who care about you? that would be invading someone else’s personal life. you’re hurting someone else by not giving a crap about them. if you have people in your life that are dependent on you, or people in your life that care about you, and you’re using drugs your putting your drugs, you love you love. if you’re addicted to drugs, you love drugs, you love them; you love them because you spend time with them. You would do anything for them, anything to get them, ya know? You love them more than you love people so if there are people that you love, you love drugs more I guarantee that you do, and then also if you’re addicted you’re putting other people at risk people you don’t even know because you don’t know what you’re gonna do when you’re on a bender. You don’t know what you’re gonna do when you’re coming down, and you really want something ya know? So you’re a danger to society ya know, I don’t know. Also I would say that other disadvantages there is a plan for your life there is things for you to accomplish. There are people who need your help. There are people dying right now, because they don’t have food, and you’re sitting there smoking a joint by yourself, or you’re hanging out with your friends and you’re rolling on ecstasy, or your sitting in an alley, and you’re shooting up heroin. there is people dying, and you’re killing yourself? how I don’t know man. how arrogant is that, ya know its selfish, it’s so selfish. Page 15 �don’t be, if you’re gonna kill yourself at least I don’t know join the army or something and go and run out and try to kill the enemy, and go on a suicide mission. if you’re gonna kill yourself, help people first, ya know? There are people that’s I don’t know there are people dying, there is good to be done ya know. when everything is great, when world hunger is over and, and there is world peace, there’s no poverty, I really can’t say anything to you, go ahead do drugs whatever (laughs) but still there are all the other disadvantages, you would be hurting the other people around you, you would be endangering society, you’d be killing yourself, ya know, but those are some serious reasons why you should just first of all you should not start doing drugs, I mean because it just leads to bad things, you will become addicted to it. If you think you’re not addicted to drugs, and you are using drugs, you will become addicted to drugs because you don’t respect drugs. You love them, but you don’t respect them so you need to do that. you need to stop using drugs, or at least realize it’s a dependency issue, and you can’t but, I don’t know as far as drinking and stuff, I guess some people can do it, some people can’t, some people can’t control themselves, if your one of those people who can’t control yourself, there is help out there, there is people out there that you can be accountable with, so that you don’t end up hurting yourself, or hurting other people around you, but ya that’s all the advice I got. GUMMERE: Do you guys have any other questions? It was good. CONNORTON: That’s a lot, sorry. END OF INTERVIEW Page 16 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9abdc62b7f13b673e54440b03a8e6937.mp3 e70b17660969a2de92b385e8a546d9ac Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Connorton_Mark Title A name given to the resource Mark Connorton audio interview and transcription Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Connorton, Mark Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gummere, Brandon Helinski, Tyler Rocco, Joseph Ortega Vasquez, Julio Description An account of the resource Mark Connorton is a mathematics major at Aquinas College in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He discusses his alcohol and drug addiction issue and how it affected his relationship with his parents. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-24 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9aa2d6441443b4c771e133be82fbf84c.pdf 439e624e384f0d104825ff4bdc473c0d PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Jeff Lichon Interviewers: Grace Faoro, Cody Holtrop, Eli Rytlewski and Michael Vallentine Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/3/2012 Biography and Description Jeff Lichon was born and raised in West Michigan. He discusses his struggles with disability after being in a car accident at age 15. Transcript FAORO: All right to get started. Jeff how old is you and where are you from originally? LICHON: I am 33 years old and I am originally from Saginaw. FAORO: Okay so from around here. LICHON: Yes, I’m a local. FAORO: Now, what was it like growing up in Saginaw, and this area? LICHON: I personally, Michigan I think is the greatest place in the world. I love it. We got the if this is about diversity Michigan is a perfect example of that only in a different way, I think its we have the change of the seasons and we’ve got fresh water that you don’t have to worry about getting eaten by sharks. But honestly it was, its home. I mean I’m comfortable here and I think I’ll always come back here or relocate back here. if I move away or anything like that for a period of time or whatever. There is a lot out there to see but in the big little world, this is still home and I grew up with mom dad and an older sister. she did the normal sibling rivalry and everything and I always tried being the peacemaker and stuff in the family. FAORO: Was she much older than you? LICHON: Two and half years. FAORO: Okay so you guys were pretty close in age. LICHON: Yeah and we are very close still. She’s lives in Grand Rapids as a matter of fact, and has been there for close to 10 years. So yeah. FAORO: Have you ever lived anywhere else but this area or have you always lived kind of stuck around? Page 1 �LICHON: I’ve lived in right out of my undergrad I lived in the Metro Detroit area for a total of 5 years. Two different companies and then eventually I started at Dow in the rotational program and my second rotation was in Washington D.C and I spend 6 months out there. FAORO: Now what is a rotational program just out of curiosity? I don’t really know. LICHON: It’s a where I started at Dow, its kind of an entry level position I’m Public affairs its called Public Affairs Developmental Program and Mike’s dad hired me into Dow actually. So but at any rate you do typically you do three 4-6 month rotations. And each one is kind of you typically you stick with the one project area like my first one I worked on sustainability communications and when I was out in D.C I handled the Government Affairs Communication in PR and what not so and then I ended up actually coming out of rotation because a position became available and it was a good fit. FAORO: Now where did you go to school and what did you study? LICHON: My undergrad was at Central Michigan University and I double majored in logistics and marketing and a Journalism minor. I did two years at Delta College too actually. I got my associates in Business. It took me while, starting out I didn’t know what I wanted to do . FAORO: That’s pretty common. LICHON: Well yeah like anybody, what do you want to do the rest of your life? well okay, that’s easy… not its not. FAORO: You’re 19 choose now. LICHON: Exactly, no pressure so I started out in psychology and when my dad asked me what I wanted to do with that, I said that was a good question. I think teaching would be natural for me and somewhere down the road maybe I could retire I’ll teach or something. I have actually been a substitute teacher, taught for a little while in local high schools in Saginaw. and So then between my first and second years at Delta I went from within a two week period I changed my mind starting with Psychology to Pre-Med to Pre-Law to Business. So I got my associates in Business at CMU and did the Marketing Logistics, I knew I wanted to do something to take advantage of my creative side and what not, so Marketing was kind of an -natural fit. I joined the co-ed Business Fraternity there so I wanted to do something social but also help be a good rese builder too. FAORO: Right connections and working. LICHON: Exactly. So everybody in the business Fraternity, not everybody, but several people were doing this double major logistics and marketing and I was like what the heck is logistics? So I looked into it and it seemed like a growing field a lot of opportunity and what not and its funny I get to maybe a little bit about what I’m doing with Dow actually. I kind of came full circle with the logistics thing, it actually helped me further down the road and I wouldn’t even know about it back then. so at any rate, I ended up, the 5 years I spend in Detroit were in international logistics operations and like the first company was CH Robinson. If I’m getting too much detail or something stop me. Page 2 �FAORO, VALLENTINE, and RYTLEWSKI: No! You’re good. LICHON: Okay, it was a little over two years with CH Robinson shipping Scott’s fertilizer via the ocean and airfreight around the world. by the container load, the big ocean containers in the large ocean vessels. and it was good experience but it was not I didn’t really see myself doing, and I didn’t feel it was a great use of my talent and all of that. so I left CH Robinson and got a job at Chrysler and was a contractor there with eagle global logistics. I was doing a similar thing only, Chrysler vehicles around air and ocean freight it was, it was, special operations. It wasn’t high vole, getting the production company. like thousands of cars around the world and stuff like that. But, there were cars used in commercials when the Jeep Commander came out with the little roller, frozen in a block of ice? That was actually filmed at the southern hemisphere proving ground in New Zealand; I shipped that vehicle there. FAORO: Wow LICHON: Yeah, so it was kind of cool. it was a step up from, it was kind of moving in the right direction. Its still not exactly what I wanted to do. I spent three years there. While I was there I got my MBA from Michigan State. I did the weekend MBA program and felt that that would help me, go that next level. FAORO: Get you where you wanted. LICHON: Exactly. And I would’ve come to find out that it did. I was able to; I interviewed with Dow and it. I was not only able to switch companies but to switch fields. because I wanted to get into circling back to my undergrad, the journalism minor that I got. I also, do some freelance outdoor travel and like disability writing and for various magazines. You just send inquiries in; my dad has also done on the side as a kind of hobby. And I always enjoy writing, and enjoy the outdoors, and traveling and what not, so it was a natural fit, and so I’m like I wanted that I could behind me to give me some more credibility for my writing. So I go the Journalism minor. I could come to find out that it helped me get into Dow. I didn’t have any communications experience per say, besides the minor, I have done some public speaking, to various groups nationally, local and what not, for my injury. so all of those things kind of came together and helped me, along with the MBA, to get into Dow, to change fields from logistics to communications, which are pretty, you can imagine, there are many difference between the two. FAORO: I’m really interested in the writing you do for the outdoors, and the public speaking you do. Can you elaborate on that a little? LICHON: Gosh when did that start? FAORO: Like how did you get into it, like the opportunities kind of thing? LICHON: I’ll start with the writing. That’s easier. As I mentioned my dad always did that on the side. we always used to go hunting together, pheasant hunting, duck hunting, go out on the Saginaw Bay and he did this boats and blinds column for Wild Flower Magazine. He did this for 15-17 years and wrote for other Magazines. So I said I wanted to do that. The contact, connections and I said hey I’m interested in writing, and I submitted an inquiry. My first article was in the Michigan Outdoors on how to preserve Page 3 �your game after you shoot a deer or a duck or something. If you want to get it mounted. So pretty basic, but helpful right. And I just started from there; it was easy for me because it’s like what do you like to do? And write about it. So so I just started from there. I did my own LLC access outdoors (Limited Liability Company). And what else? I have written for some national publications now. I’m still kind of in the name building thing because over the years I have had gaps where I haven’t consistently kept my name out there so I have written for regional reports for Great Lake Fishing and Hunting News, on the Saginaw Bay Region, I did that for about a year or so. what’s going on in fishing and hunting and stuff, and where the hot spots, things like that. It was interesting, and then I would find when I would go on a trip somewhere, it would line up different activities adventures and stuff like that because I’m an adventurous guy I like those things. Every year I would try to do an in state and out of state trip and do different things. I mentioned I’m going down to Florida tomorrow. I work on lining up a fishing trip for Goliath grouper. They can get up to 600 pounds. So something like that. I am also trying, disabled water skiing for my first time down there. A week from today I’ll be on some inland lake. Hopefully no alligators are out there and I’ll be water skiing. So that will be fun, I hope. Hopefully not to overly adventurous. FAORO: How do you do disabled water skiing? I just like… LICHON: I down hill ski too, so I’m guessing that the fall in the water isn’t as hard but. Your basically, I’ve seen different ones. I mean there are some that are narrower skis and they have a bucket seat on it and your legs are secured in, your feet are strapped in. VALLENTINE: Pulls you up? LICHON: It pulls you up. Yeah. VALLENTINE: So that’s essentially the same thing as snow skiing too, right? LICHON: Yeah. VALLENTINE: Cause I’ve seen that. LICHON: I love it. It’s a good time. So I’m trying to get back to what I was leading into here. Hum, so… so always try and do in state out of state trips. I find a couple things to do that are non-typical for someone with a disability and then write about it. And maybe open up people with other disability, whether it’s physical or mental, open up their perspectives and hopefully their options and actually get out and do the things they want to do. So, I went to the National Cherry Festival in Traverse City and Mackinaw Island. Okay, and you just write about different things and how easy it is to get around and things you can do. In Traverse City I went to, I went on the tall ship Manitou out in West Grand Traverse Bay and went Parasailing. So, I wrote about those and I tried getting up with the Blue Angels that year but it didn’t pan out. They take up members of the media every year, I can guarantee you, just about guarantee that I will have been the first person with a spinal cord injury to ride in a fighter jet. That would have been cool. That would’ve been good publicity for them, wouldn’t it? Page 4 �FAORO: Now when you write, do you find that like any people in the disabled community are like really inspired or have you heard from anyone about your writings or anything? LICHON: No. Well the thing is people, I mean sports and spokes and paraplegic news are sister publications from the paralyzed veterans of America and I’ve written for both of them. FAORO: Are you a Veteran? LICHON: No. I wish it was that honorable. No, car accident. And s I can talk about that too if you’d like? FAORO: Are you comfortable? LICHON: Yeah, absolutely. … losing track of what I was saying. RYTLEWSKI: You were talking about writing for the association… LICHON: Oh yeah. The PBA and stuff. So they’re a national publication so they have good reader ship and if it helps one person or 2 people, whatever, I think that’s making a difference there. But I always look to, for meaning in things I do. What’s going to make an impact on lives of people? Not just people with disabilities but anybody. FAORO: Open the eyes of people who aren’t disabled maybe… LICHON: Yea, yea. The perspective of people with disabilities now has changed a lot since, I mean there was a huge movement back in the 60s and 70s and following Vietnam. With people coming back with these injuries and from war and having these types of injuries. Whether its post-dramatic stress, spinal injuries, head injuries and stuff like that. There was a big movement because they were coming back and even though; the country was very anti-war and anti-veteran and treated everyone bad, it was probably that much worse for those who were coming back with these catastrophic injuries. These life changing things that could actually, probably do more good for society and helping facilitate better back in the normal word, sort of speak. But it didn’t. There were big fights through those years. early in the 90s we ended up getting the American Disabilities Act from President Bush. that has been a hug step and has really opened up opportunities and the ability of people with, probably in a lot more respect of physical disabilities than mental. To get out because more things are accessible. Well new buildings are instructed; they now have to incorporate burrier free design and things like that. All public buildings have to be accessible. Anytime an old building is modified in anyway it has to be retrofitted with accessible designs as well and things like that. So, coming back to the present I think that the awareness of people with a disability has increased significantly and just over the things that have been leading over the years but there is still a ways to go. I mean no one thinks of himself or herself of wanting to have a disability; I was thrown into it when I was fifteen. It was something that happened to me, I spent 15 years walking and all of a sudden… You are either born with one, you sustain one somewhere. As people age different things come up, whether it’s dementia or whatever. So, no one ever think of themselves as having a disability. There are a lot of challenges of raising the awareness and I think now with the war and Iraq, the technology we have today there is going to be more people surviving their injuries at war cause of technology and these soldiers are going to come back and they are going to Page 5 �want to work and live a normal life and so you are going to see a lot more people in society with different types of injuries and disabilities, mental or physical or whatever. So, that’s definitely going to, I mean that’s unfortunate that it happens, but it is what it is and I think it is definitely going to help increase that awareness level and you’ll see just more; I think what that ultimately leads to is people have a different perspective on life. They see things differently right? FAORO: Yeah. LICHON: So, case in point, myself. I played football, baseball, basketball, soccer, skied, track, everything. It was April 26 of 1994, which will be 18 years next month since my accident and I got home from baseball practice and instead of doing my homework, like I probably should have, I ended up walking over to my buddies house to play basketball with another buddy. It was a few blocks from my house and I got there and I remember playing horribly and I don’t know, it’s just something you remember. So, was playing horribly and I had just gotten the first Rage Against the Machine CD and I wanted to play it on my buddy’s stereo because he had these big speakers. These box speakers. I remember getting ready to leave and that was it. What happened beyond that was a kid in my class had just got his drivers license, we weren’t close friends but we were friends of friends. We didn’t hang out all the time. So, he had just gotten a new truck and my buddy and me were about to walk home. The kid said hop in the bed of the truck and ill give you a ride home. So, we’re 15 years old, so of course. We were invincible then. FAORO: Yea, free ride. LICHON: Yea why not. Might be cool, whatever. So, there were 3 guys in the cab so we hopped in the bed and when we took off, I laid down in the bed cause I didn’t want to get thrown out and so that’s what I was told. So, the driver was messing around, lost control and went up a curb. On the same street that the kid’s house was that we were playing basketball at. And he hit a tree going about 50 and the driver had a concussion, the kid in the middle seat had 15 stitches across his knees, the kid in the passenger seat had a few stitches across his lip. Had we hit on the passenger side instead of the driver side, the kid in the passenger seat would have been killed because the hood came up through the wind so far it would have sliced his head open. It was bad. When I first saw the truck post-injury it was surreal. I called it the eight wonder of the world cause I was amazed anyone survived it. So, my buddy was in the bed of the truck with me and ended up getting 2 stitches in his finger cause he was holding on when we hit. I had a broken back. Which your spine has your cervical, which is in your neck, Your thorax, which I think has 7 vertebrate there. So they measure it like C1,C2,C3. So you have 12 thoracic, which are all your, which is the bulk of your back, your spine. there are 12 of those. Then you got your lumbar, which is your lower back, your sacru, and your praxis. I broke 3 vertebrate, T5,T6,T7. Which is just chest level here. had I broke my spinal cord one or two higher I probably would have lost some function in my arms and hands and stuff. I am very fortunate for as severe as it was and that I didn’t get some sort of head injury from bouncing around the bed of the truck. excuse me. So I had a broken back, a bruised heart, collapsed lung, and 3 broken ribs. Short term memory loss for 2-3 days pretty mild fortunately. I guess it was good that I didn’t get a head injury, though I guess some of my friends would argue against that, sometimes I may have one. (Laughing) Joking, ok. so I spent 3 weeks in St. Marys Page 6 �Hospital in Saginaw. had surgery where they put titani rods in my back to stabilize the spine. they took a bone chip out of my hip and fused the 3 veribrate together. They pulled bone chips out of my spinal cord, which caused that and the swelling from the traa caused the injury. So basically your spinal cord is about the diameter of your pinky and if theres, think about the diameter of a internet cable or something like that, or wifi; how intricate is some of the cables if you just break one of those it breaks the signal so that’s how the nerves are going through, they are just so tight together and any type of damage or shifting of the spine, swelling, can cause permanent disability. And if ya just tweak it. I hope I am not making anyone quezy if you are gonna be eating after this or anything (Laughes) FAORO, VALLENTINE, and RYTLEWSKI: (laughing) No we are alright LICHON: I spend three weeks, they fused 3 vertibrate together and pulled bone chips out of the spine. After that I went to grand rapids and spent 2 months in rehab for at Mary Free Bed by the hospital there, right on Wealthy St. FAORO: Oh I have seen stuff for that. LICHON: Kinda near the gaslight district? Or something? VALLENTINE: Something like that LICHON:I don’t think it’s a redlight district (Laughes) LICHON: Anyways, well I spent 2 months there and I had to relearn pretty much everything we take for granted. I had to relearn how to reach down and tie my shoes, I could not reach my feet right after my injury to put on shoes and socks, to get dressed, I had to relearn all that. But like I said, I had to relearn to transfer from the wheelchair to a real chair or a vehicle. Initially I was using what was called a sliding board. It’s just a very thin, solid board, about this long. That you slide under one hip then ya put it into the vehicle or onto the chair or something like that. I never thought I was never going to not have to depend on that just because it was that difficult to do. I had to relearn getting around the house, taking a shower, , bladder/ bowel considerations come into play. I mean everything was different. and so. After my, after I spent two months there, I came home, started my junior year in high school, no sports. Looked into getting back into hunting and fishing, because those we like my nber one passions. worked with my family and friends into getting back into doing the things I used to do as much as possible. yeah it was hard, it was an adjustment. Especially, as you can imagine for a 15 year old, it’s such a critical time in your life, in high school, in your development. Emotionally and all that. But I had awesome friends and family who were very supportive. I got right back that fall into hunting. there were some things I was kinda resistant to like, like I didn’t wanna be identified by my injury, by the disability or anything like that. I still wanted to be jeff FAORO: Right LICHON: ? And i think that was one personal battle that anyone who goes through anything like that would have. That you ultimately find out that you are only fighting yourself (laughs) and everyone still Page 7 �sees you for who you are in the end. but still it’s such a significant change. Going back to now, the idea that people with disabilities have a different perspective on life, because of a significant life challenge. I think. (bing noise) (laughing) RYTLEWSKI: Is it dying on me? (laughing) LICHON: See everyone has a different outlook on life and everything because of the challenges that you have gone through. So, that all ties into your work ethic, ties into your outlook on life. My motto is you only live once doesn’t mean that you have to be wild and reckless, it just means life’s short. It’s very short, I can’t believe I am 33 now; it’s hard to believe that 18 years have gone by since my accident, since that accident. But it’s just been an incredible 18 years. The opportunities I have had with people I have met, who knows where I would be today? Maybe the injury, I believe things happen for a reason. Maybe had the injury not happened, something would have happened where I would have died? You never know right? So I take every moment, I try to live in the moment. Do what it, what I feel is going to be a positive impact to people and doing the things also that I wanna do. Where when I get 50 60 years old whatever, and i look back and say man I wish I did that. I think regrets are hard for anybody. But now I think I have that perspective where people think about that and go, they think that they don’t like regrets and they think that they don’t wanna miss out on a opportunity in life. So I am actually going one step further and actually trying to do those things that I wanna do. traveling, and whatever down the road, getting married, having a family. Whatever is important to you, its personal to everybody. What they wanna do in life and stuff. So, my ultimate goal is to achieve greatness. (laughing) FAORO: I like it (laughing) LICHON: Yeahh RYTLEWSKI: You’re on your way there LICHON: Yeah! A long way there, I don’t ever think I’ll reach like dali llama status or anything like that (laughing) LICHON: Which is fine FAORO: Hey, don’t knock yourself down, you never know (laughing) FAORO: Dalli llama might be right here in midland Page 8 �LICHON: Yeah right! (laughing) LICHON: I’d rather be in the mountains (laughing) LICHON: So do you have any questions? FAORO: Maybe wrapping it back to Dow and now, with your disability are you involved in Dow in any way? RYTLEWSKI: DEN right? It’s called den? LICHON: Yeah right, RYTLEWSKI: Talk about that a little bit, my dad told me about it LICHON: Yes, ok so when I started at Dow I was in the rotational program, I had god what was the, trying to think of the timeline of everything cause it happened so quickly. Your dad gave me a lot of opportunity real fast. (Laughing). And so, yeah, DEN is the Disability Employ Network and I am the global chair no pun intended (Laughing). All right. OK. And Rob, Mike’s dad of course who hired me in, got me involved with the network, when I started. within like 2 or 3 months I was co-chair with Brenda Keeler, who at the time was the chair. And so then, that was with the understanding that eventually I would become chair. I was like ok, a year down the road or something, I’m at a new job and a new company. Nope, 2 months later I’m the chair. That opened up a lot of doors for me, but through that I’ve gone and spoke to, the, what was it? Allegiance of State Employees with disabilities, which is State of Michigan employees, that have disabilities. I have gone to national conferences for students with disabilities, I have had speaking opportunities, I’ve gotten to travel around a little bit and meet a lot of people, it was an awesome networking opportunity just for me for a personal standpoint. that wasn’t the only thing like, I a lot of people think, its kinda like the jeep syndrome, you drive a jeep everyone thinks everyone who has a jeep waves to everybody who has a jeep. OK, you’re in a wheelchair people think so and so, you work at Dow, do so and so? Well, there’s like 2 or 3 thousand people I’ve met with. You never know it’s a small town. So, people think because you have some sort of disability people think everything about every disability. Which is, isn’t further from the couldn’t be further from the truth. I was able to meet a lot of different people who have different disabilities, who who’s children have disabilities, or who know someone with a disability. And I have been able to go and speak to people with new disabilities injuries and stuff like that. Spinal injuries around the area, stuff like that. So it was a huge learning for me to be involved with them. I mean it opened up my eyes a lot ? I was able to I’m kind of a focal point for corporate center accessibility. So anytime, our facilities, is looking to put in automatic doors, or whatever I work with them. in doing that. Well I have to take in consideration for other disabilities, people who are blind, people who are deaf, things like that. So, again its my scope was just spinal cord injury, physical disabilities, using a wheelchair right. So that kind of helped me open up my perspective more and see a broader, aspect of disabilities I guess scope. Page 9 �Excuse me, and it was also and this is one of my favorite parts because, I like to give back to, people or anyone or anything that gives me an opportunity, so the opportunities I’ve had a Dow and with Den and with my career, with my growth and the people I’ve been able to work with, and meet through the company and through Den, have been awesome. And I naturally want to give back. So, by being visible around the company and having trying to fill the high profile and whatnot, I think opens up other people’s eyes, right . And helps them to learn, and maybe and however way in everyone is personal but a source of inspiration for them in some way. and everything whether I’m going on a business trip seeing what I do on a daily basis to get around and do the things I do, I think people have a greater appreciation for what they have. I hope so, ? because it’s a workout everyday, both physical and mental. And yeah I’m in pretty good shape (laughing) upper body ? (Laughing) So, you’re transcribing this right? FAORO: Yeah (laughing) LICHON: And but I mean getting up in the morning, is a lot more work than falling out of bed I could actually hurt myself. Falling in bed for you is probably just because your really tired or something, (Laughing) I have to really, I have to take care of myself that much more, to be able to go on to the things I want to do in life. so its it takes longer in the morning to get ready, somewhat. And especially like, however busy the last day or several days were, my upper body, I mean my arms are my legs ? Arms are not built to do the work that legs are built to do. So, if I’m going the halls in Dow are ridiculous in length. they have even though its not 70’s shag carpet, they have a carpet down through the halls and stuff, and that adds to the drag, I mean just little things like that make it a little more difficult to get around. But, I’ve conditioned myself to do that, but still, over the course of a day a busy day, your doing meeting after meeting, and your not only exercising yourself mentally your taxing from that perspective. But, you’ve got the physical aspect in there too. how many times a day I think man, I’m exhausted mentally or something you just had a busy day of classes, or its hot. You get tired right? Your ready to cash out, so being physically and mentally exhausted, when you get up in the morning the last thing you want to do is get up. Even though my mind isn’t mentally exhausted, my arms might and my shoulders and stuff. So, I still have to take care of myself, I mean, if I sprain a wrist, or tear a rotator cuff or something like that. I mean that will have a massive effect on my ability to do things, ? Just I go to physical therapy still, 18 years later I’m going twice a week, as a maintenance program, because of my injury I get muscle spasms. If I have a stressful day my legs are going to be like super tight, I’m always trying to stretch them out and move them around, and stay active just to keep them limber, things like that. So, I’m going to physical therapy, weekly massage which I always feel kind of snooty saying that but it’s important because it helps the skin integrity because you can get skin break down with spinal cord injury because your sitting down all the time, ? That’s another consideration I’ve taken account, if I get a pressure sore, where your sit bones are, because I have muscle atrophy your not using your legs like you used to. I mean just think if you stopped working out, or having your hockey practice and things like that, your probably not going to be in serious shape, if you not using them. LICHON: So at any rate, there’s a lot of different considerations, that I have to take into account, and but, where I tie this all back to, or I always try to tie this my injury my disability back to is that, every Page 10 �single person people with disabilities don’t want to be seen as, as different as being identified by their disability. FAORO: Like you said you don’t want to be defined by it. LICHON: Right, right, yeah, and so how I tie it back I say that everybody is the same well (laugh) there not, ok. I mean you two are as different from each other as you two are everybody does things in their own way. so, no people don’t want to say ok, your disabled, they don’t want to hear that. Or that you have a disability or anything, so so, we want to identify that we have an injury. I don’t think of myself as having a disability, I do things differently because I have to, because I have what I call an injury, right. It’s classified as a disability right? so is I think addiction to coffee or something, I don’t know, some weird things like, in the American medical association. So, people may be born with, who end up being like multiple sclerosis or muscular dystrophy or things like that, that’s a genetic thing, and fortunately with spinal cord injury, its not debilitating like some of those conditions or what not. its with spinal cord injuries its like something you acquire throughout the course of you life, so I identify it as my injury, I know its classified as a disability, and I’m not saying that people can’t say it’s a disability or anything like that, because it doesn’t bother me right. And so, when people ask like “Well aren’t you mad?” or “Aren’t people with disabilities mad, angry at life and this and that?” I’m like “Alright buddy,” people think that, they think they were dealt an unfair hand in life. I say it was such a po, I mean, if I had the choice being on my feet or not, yeah I’d be walking, just the opportunities I’ve been given, and the people I’ve met that I’ve mentioned have been just so incredible over the past 18 years. How can you say its been disabled? So, when people say are you mad, or aren’t people with disabilities angry at life, if you were an angry person before an injury or disability than you will probably be the same after. You are who you are right? And, yeah I’ve had my challenges of trying to figure out, especially when all of my friends were going away to college I was going to Delta. I had a challenging time of trying to figure out like “Man this Is kind of scary now, its getting real,” Your so busy in high school and everything that its you don’t really pay attention, I mean you just always go, go, go. And then when things maybe start to slow down, and you have to kind of choose a direction, what’s that direction you want to choose? I didn’t like the alternatives not going forward, and people are like, “Have you ever thought, considered a thought of committing suicide?” No, frankly it scares me, so no, I’m like, “That’s not in me,” what I mean? and so, the people who think that or, or, think its OK to go go shoot up a school, you see it in many different aspects of life not just disabilities, people’s attitudes are, I know this might sound cliché, but peoples attitudes are the biggest disabilities ? What people choose to do with their life is their choice, people don’t take enough accountability for themselves, responsibility for themselves, and its your own fault if you don’t make of yourself what you want to do in life. With me, I have this opportunity in my injury to get out and make something of it, and to go, achieve greatness (laughing). I mean kind of tongue and cheek, but there is a lot of seriousness to that ? And so, again it goes back to when I, when I get old and grey, or older and grey, then I don’t want to look back and say “ man I wish I did that, or gosh I’m ticked I didn’t do that, or make something of myself,” because its fun being here (laughing) ? And having life we don’t know what comes after. But, your still why not have fun while you’re here and take the most to seize every opportunity that you can, and and when you get to the end of say, “alright I did my best.” Page 11 �FAORO: I have a question more about like, now I know you said about your physical rehabilitation and your very obviously comfortable, but was it always that way? Or was there like a mental rehabilitation you kind of had to go through first? Like to get comfortable and get acceptance? LICHON: Yeah, absolutely, the same magazines that I said I wrote for, “paraplegic news and spokes in sports” I didn’t want anything to do with them when I got home from rehab in Grand Rapids, I thought they were the same thing I didn’t want to identify with, and now I end up writing for them and I have subscriptions to them for years. FAORO: Do you think it had to do with maturity to? as you got older, or just kind of you were young and it was just kind of a different mindset then. LICHON: Sure, yeah absolutely, yeah your 15 years old how mature are you really? We think we are but its just like so and I’ve always, I guess been told that I have a higher maturity level which I guess is maybe contributed to handling it the way I did when I was at Mary Freebed in Grand Rapids I had to see a social worker like starting out for a few weeks once or a couple of times. And she said to me, “Don’t you think that your taking this a little too well?” And that was the last appointment I had with her, because it ticked me off that she would ask such a thing, I’m like, “How could you take this too well?” There’s a difference between being what’s the word? like between oblivious to something or ignorance is one thing, I mean you could, ignorance you could learn and correct that. but denial I think is another thing, and I wasn’t denying because in the story I tell people and I’ll get to my struggle here in a minute but the story I tell people that I’ve kind of kept as my attitude throughout is that the next morning following my accident I woke up, tubes coming out of me everywhere, monitors up keeping track of my heartbeat, my mom and my dad and a nurse. And I’ve just gotten contact lenses and was having a heck of a time getting used to them and putting them in and everything. So, I woke up and there were like a lot of friends out in the lobby and my sister was out there and stuff. But there was just the 4 of us in the room and I started looking around and I felt that I could see clearly and I’m like looking at the monitors and like “this is kind of weird ” I was conscious throughout the entire night but I don’t remember it, they did all sorts of tests throughout the night to figure out what happened and stuff. but, so I knew what had happened, I kind of knew, OK, this sucks or something pretty serious had happened. That’s about all I needed to know at that particular point. To figure out that some things are going to have to start to change. So I’m looking around and its clear and I’m like, I’m looking at everybody my mom and dad, I just woke up and there just like, “Oh hey Jeff,” and I’m like, “Hey, are my contacts still in?” And they all just looked at each other like I was nuts. Whats this kid worrying about his contacts for? (Laughing) FAORO: My contacts (Laughing) LICHON: Yeah, because that, at 15 those are some of the things your, your worried about I guess right? so I always say to people, “My first thought was OK, what’s next? Life goes on and what’s next, what do I have to do here? There’s still things that I have to worry about besides figuring out what the next step is.” I didn’t know what would come next, I didn’t know I would have to start learning again how to get into a car and get dressed, and shower and all that stuff, but I guess I was going to find out . But at any Page 12 �rate, I mentioned earlier that at out of high school some of my friends stuck around and also went to Delta or FSU and some of my friends went away, and then after like the first year some of my other friends went away and I started figuring out I was going to have to make some choices . Be a big boy, get grown up and determine what the next however many years of my life were going to be. Or even the next day sort of thing. So, started kind of freaking me out, I’m like, “I’m not quite feeling myself here,” it’s a little scary I mean that’s intimidating for anybody to figure out what they want do, let alone someone at 15, 16, 17 or 18 who just has an injury like I had or some sort of disclosure. So, at that point I’m like, “OK I think I need to start maybe talking to somebody, and sorting through these things,” so I started going to counseling for, I don’t know a year and a half maybe, it started out once or twice a week or so, and basically all that amounted to or people say, “ Oh your seeing a shrink,” Ok that’s there perspective or attitude. But the thing was I needed to figure things out, and what that allowed me to do was to unravel what I had wound myself up into, through my 15, 16 years of life, and actually disconnect myself from qualities that I felt were not gonna be beneficial to me not just from a personal perspective but from my injury perspective, what I mean? so, I mean there were a lot of things I found like the more negative I am the more tone I get in my legs the more stress I feel, and the more toll it takes and so the more I can figure out how to work around those moments or situations the better off I’m going to be in the long run. The more longevity I’ll be able to have because I think, a small part of me I think I have a self destructive personality in some (laughing), I like to have fun and party, get a little wild skiing or whatever stuff like that. Well but, at the same time your those things are going to be that much more detrimental to me if I were to get injured like I mentioned earlier, like if I injured my arms or my shoulder or whatever. And so, same thing mentally is that I had to kind of deconstruct myself a bit and not only did I relearn physical things like getting dressed and showering etc. but I also started to have to relearn myself, and why do I behave certain ways? maybe I’m upset or angry about my parents being divorced when I was in the 8th grade ? Well, OK, let go of that. Or maybe I’m angry because my friend didn’t let me sit shotgun (Laughing). Honestly, we store so much of that in our selves that we don’t even realize and I mean I literally no, I guess its not literally, but I pick myself apart to figure out what was going to be in my best interest to be as a person going forward, and so that was one of the most helpful and transformational periods in my life . I didn’t like start going to the top of the hill screaming hallelujah or anything like that or become like, I was born and raised Catholic and stuff I have very deep values and faith and what not and definitely there’s the aspect I feel that God helped me through a lot of the stuff but it wasn’t that fanatical. FAORO: You didn’t like see the light; you kind of had to way your way through it. LICHON: Yeah, I think we all have to help ourselves here and still like I mentioned have that accountability and responsibility for yourself, and I just wish that a lot more people could go through, go through that who maybe were heading or are heading in a direction that they may not want to see themselves going things like that, so yeah so it was definitely that was the most challenging mentally, but it was the best I think thing for me to go through because I was able to, it was like a rebirth in a lot of ways, and yeah so now as they say “the rest is history,” I mean I still now have, I mean I’m still the same person I was then, I just like I said I changed a lot of things about the way I act, react or how I Page 13 �respond to things or different situations and stuff like that. Which, I still get ticked off if I have a hard day at work (Laughing). FAORO: Yeah, like anyone. LICHON: Yeah my boss is so, getting on my case and stuff (Laughing). Sorry Eli (Laughing), no I challenge back (Laughing) but I choose my battles more now than I probably would have what I mean? So, yeah, I think a lot of where I am now is just kind of a testament to that period that I went through ? so, RYTLEWSKI: It really seems like with this injury it really hasn’t limited you at all, I mean not at all, I mean you still do things, your kind of like proving to people that look you has a disability. LICHON: I do things the way I have to do them, which are different from the way Mike does them, or you do them, or you do them, I mean I play hockey sled hockey. RYTLEWSKI: I want to play that sometime. LICHON: Dude, you have to come out its awesome, I’m trying to get a team together. RYTLEWSKI: I gotta do it sometime, you told me about it. LICHON: Yeah, they have a sled there so, I have my own hockey sled I have my own hand cycle, so I still go biking, I’m working on getting my own down hill sit ski for snow, and like I mentioned I’m going water skiing in a week, in a week from today because I want to get my own water ski, so I’ll have my own equipment so that when I go up with friends I don’t have to depend on an adaptive sports association, which is who I learned to ski with Michigan Adaptive Sports, I won’t have to depend on the weekends and the places that they go, I can go with friends now, skiing places, I can go water skiing when my friends get boats (Laughing). Or when I get one but things like that and I guess the hunting and fishing thing there’s still like my nber one passion there, and with hunting its water, and that’s kind of the hardest thing to do your going out in the marsh, your going out in a cut corn field, or your taking boats with lots of equipment, your setting decoys you’ve got your retriever with you, not your buddy your dog (Laughing) and things like that so I mean your pulling the canoe off your truck or off your trailer. I had a jet ski and I managed that completely by myself independently while I had it. loved it (Laughing) I miss it so much! I want it back (Laughing) and things like that so but I think when I get a house I’ll be able to get everything set up. Right now I have a condo, and its difficult like I want a dog so bad, we grew up with female black labs and that’s exactly what I’m going to get, but I’m not going to get it at a condo. Why did I get a condo? Well I came back from D.C. and I was starting a new position, I wanted I’ve been renting for ten and I wanted to not have to worry about exterior and keeping up with the lawn and stuff because I’m pretty meticulous like, I guess I’m anal about that stuff ? Its like, so I didn’t want to necessarily want to focus on that stuff, I had enough challenges but I want to get a house eventually. get my female black lab and then I’ll start acculating more stuff and all my hunting and fishing trust me I’ve thought through a lot of it already too. I need a pulley system to store boats up canoes and stuff like that up in the ceiling of the pull barn or in the garage, tie it to the wall and lower it down things like that. So, I’ve thought through a lot and now a lot more equipment is Page 14 �coming like I want to get an Argo, which is a six or eight wheel all-terrain but they are completely hand controlled. The thing is though the one I’m looking at is like $23,000 (Laughing) outfitted. RYTLEWSKI: Oh boy. LICHON: But, somewhere down the road but then like a lot more equipment like lawn mowers, riding lawn mowers are hand controlled now. I cut my dads grass with his Exmark, hop on that and go buzz around. It’s a feeling of freedom still being on a four-wheeler; I’ve had that since ‘97. I keep it up at my dads because he has a pull barn and lives out on the base so I can go out riding around there and stuff. But, I’ll have to figure all of that out myself eventually. (Ring) FAORO: Well we hit the hour mark at least. LICHON: So who do you have to turn this into now? RYTLEWSKI: Well we have to type it up and give it to our teacher. LICHON: Good luck with that, I was all over the place. FAORO: We do 20 minutes each, so we will break it up. RYTLEWSKI: We get to talk about you to the entire class. FAORO: Yeah LICHON: Sweet FAORO: Well we will be nice LICHON: Should I come in at the end with like a superman cape on or something (Laughing) Your gonna blow me up that big or something or Dahli Llama outfit or something (Laughing). RYTLEWSKI: You hungry? VALLENTINE: Some food LICHON: You want to eat, grab some grub, yeah I mean anymore questions or anything that comes up just I’ll give you my cell if you need to clarify or something. FAORO, VALLENTINE, and RYTLEWSKI: Thank you for doing all of this LICHON: No problem RYTLEWSKI: I’m going to come play hockey with you sometime, all right? LICHON: Yeah, there you go. END OF INTERVIEW Page 15 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/61583fa63500093ada3dbcd8f2d47c3a.mp3 a0f7107fd8c92cd698c24a5631501254 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Lichon_Jeff Title A name given to the resource Jeff Lichon audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lichon, Jeff Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Faoro, Grace Holtrop, Cody Rytlewski, Eli Vallentine, Michael Description An account of the resource Jeff Lichon was born and raised in West Michigan. He discusses his struggles with disability after being in a car accident at age 15. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History People with disabilities--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-03 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a1bda66d14e6843e00210a641a2191b2.pdf 7da93ae59ade883956fd2b01e582b03b PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Terrence Harris Interviewers: David Bauer, Eric Pete, Stephanie Homan and Victoria VanDragt Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/23/2012 Biography and Description Terrence is African American and Atheist. He grew up in a neighborhood that is predominately White, Christian. He discusses religion. Transcript The person were interviewing today is Terrence Harris from Grandville, Michigan. We’re going to start by having Terrence tell him about himself. Let’s see. I grew up in Wyoming. shoot. I was born in Grand Rapids. I lived there for about three years, then came to Wyoming which is like a bio-center. Then, I lived there for about eleven years, then moved to good ole Grandville. that was probably when I would say I became the person who I am now because of moving to Grandville. Did you participate in any activities in Grandville, extracurriculars, sports? Yep! I played basketball. I actually got cut from the 7th grade team in Wyoming when I was in Newhaugh. Which is pretty sucked, (Laughter). But, actually I liked Grandville after I made the team in eighth grade. So, I played basketball in high school for all four years, and I played track in high school for two years. How was the atmosphere for sports in Grandville? The atmosphere for sports? Well, pretty good. Not too bad. I would say as far as during the games or during the practices. Like what do you mean? Sure. Now lets just jump right in here. We’re interviewing you because you may have been discriminated. Can you tell us why you may have discriminated in a community like Grandville? Ah. (Laughter). It’s a funny thing and its ironic at the same time. Because when I went to Grandville I was instantly like because I was black which is very, very weird. (Laughter). It’s like “oh, you’re black you’re cool”, and I was like what’s up. (Laughter). I don’t know if it was more discrimination than just an annoying stereotype. I would probably say that was the biggest thing in Grandville. Was stereotypes and, then once certain people get close to you, like a lot of my white friends, when they get to a certain Page 1 �comfort level, then they’ll start to say certain discriminatory things that does not sound so hurtful since I know them. I guess they were just testing the waters to see how I’d react., eighth grade I was very immature. Ninth grade, I was very immature. Tenth grade, ehh. Eleventh grade, I just didn’t give a fuck anymore (Laughter). Twelfth grade, is the person I have become now. Did you ever call your friends out on things they said that may have seemed discriminatory? Let’s see. I would say I have a few times. I will try to not let it get to me. I wanna keep my composure and let them know that I’m not gonna flip out based on something like that. But, you know, after doing a lot of research, a lot of Africans will explode on a situation because of a lost identification of themselves. So, when they’re being branded, you know, something negative, they’ll reject it of course in an ignorant type of way. Like, so I saw this film and this black chick was tripping on a professor because he cannot prove why evolution kills black people. Did you see it? I heard. I actually was gonna watch it but my video player wasn’t working. I saw that and I was like oh my God are you serious and this is why people think all black people are the same because chicks like this. Just put her in jail (Laughter). So, even though some of the way treated had positive connotation did it bother you that you were treated differently at all? Oh yeah! Even though it appeared to be positive? Oh yeah! Yep! There is always gonna be that like üh why is it me type factor. Kinda playing the victims card. it was kind of more of a them getting under skin but I won’t let them get under my skin type of thing. I’m not gonna show that it’s bothering me. So, I’m just gonna keep it cool, keep calm, collective; you know, stuff like that. What were some things that your friends said that may have offended you without them knowing it. Oh man! Just the typical things. Fried chicken, big kool-aid, watermelon. I don’t like watermelon. A lot of people get surprised when I tell them that. Like people say, “why don’t you sag your pants?”. I don’t wanna sag my pants! (Laughter). And that’s why! Does every black person have to sag their pants (Laughter) in order to be black? It seems like there is a certain level of ignorance you have to be in order to earn the title of being black which I was like I’m not gonna snoop down to that level, because I plan on being successful. One of the biggest things that drove me to where I am now, is I told myself when I was twelve years old I would not be another black statistic. You know, going to jail, selling drugs, ain’t got nothing, hardly ain’t got a job. I said flick that! Why would I want to choose that way. So it sounds like you’re almost using your race as a motivating factor for you? Oh yeah. If I were to grow up in Wyoming, if I were to stay there I wouldn’t be the same. I probably would be just like another person that went to Wyoming Park. Not saying that there is not successful Page 2 �people or successful Africans that come or have came from Park, but Grandville was a huge motivator for me. What prompted the move for your family? My mom wanted a better educational system. Wyoming Park did not provide it and my mom saw that and said I guess we’ll go to Grandville, and I was like I don’t want to and she said too bad! Let’s go! (Laughter). All of my friends were in Wyoming, so I didn’t want to do a complete new start, but my mom saw the opportunity and she went out and decided for my sister and myself, and I’m very grateful that she did. Because I don’t know, to be honest I’d probably just be in jail if I would have stayed in Park. A lot of my friends in Park are in jail, selling drugs, ain’t doing much with shit to put it in blatancy terms. I’m a very blunt person. I tell it like it is. I don’t hold back. If you see my Facebook statuses, I don’t hold back. You know Eric. Very true! I don’t play. I’m gonna tell it like it is. Because I don’t believe in holding stuff back. Tm not gonna get to the core issue if, you know, I’m softening it up a bit. We’ll touch on Facebook later (Laughter). Now staying on the subject of education, have teachers ever treated you differently or made assumptions about you. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I would say even a little bit in Wyoming too actually. The thing is, with the teachers I didn’t like, it was kind of like I’m gonna try to work with you, but if you be disruptive a few times I’m gonna brand you, point you out every time, and get you nowhere! (Laughter). And I was a hard headed little boy. Oh my gosh. I feel sorry for the teachers that dealt with me. I’m not even gonna lie. I was a hard headed, knuckle-headed, bad...whatever. I didn’t care and then it carried on to seventh grade when I left, came to Grandville, and there were a few teachers. I’m not sure, I don’t know. Have you ever had Ms. Badgearna? No I don’t know. It was very I think she just hated us all. I mean she hated everyone equally. You guys can blank that one out (Laughter). No, Ms. Badgeama was really cool teacher. I saw her a few years ago and all smiles, nothing bad. High School, wasn’t that bad. I think,, they treat everybody just like it was a college course. Do your work or you’re not gonna get shit. Just plain and simple. High School wasn’t too bad. I think probably Elementary was worst. Would you like to go into Elementary at all? Elementary. Oh man! I remember one memory I have is; a friend of mine, Erika reminded me of this story the other day. I was in class, her name was Ms. Norman, and I just saw her at my job last week. Funny that that happened. Erika, a friend of mine, last week Wednesday told me about that story and reminded. The very next day, I went to my job and I went to get some tea because I love getting tea, free tea, you know come on! And I go to my job and saw her and said holy shit, we were just talking about you last night. And what ended up happening is she, I don’t remember much, like I said I was Page 3 �immature. You know, I had discipline but I chose not to show that I had that discipline. I wanted to act out. I was a little kid. I was a little black kid. Not too many little black kids, you know, stick out, can’t blend in. You’re already not gonna blend it when you’re black (Laughter). I remember I told her, I was like, ‘Man, screaming, you’re just doing this because I’m black”! And I was screaming and I was like crying and shit, but I don’t remember too much but I probably did that. Let’s see, we actually had a black principal in seventh grade, which wasn’t too bad. I think that was one of the only incidents that I’ve had. There were a few others of course, but I don’t remember it too much. Any incidents with coaches? Coaches. Or assumptions? Ahh, no. Fifth grade; there was actually like six black people on the team my fifth grade year. First time I played basketball. seventh grade, nope. I just didn’t make the team seventh grade because I missed the first day of practice. Eight grade I made the team so no prejudice remarks there. Then ninth grade throughout senior year, I performed. So, I don’t think there was much of any prejudice or....I was gonna say prejudice and racism at the same time (Laughter). Pracism! (Group Laughter) Going outside the walls of Grandville high school, in the city of Grandville itself, going to stores, gas stations, anything like that? (Laughter). Was it different for you or tough for you? Oh! I love it! I love when I went to stores in Grandville man! Those mother flickers always think I’m about to steal something. (Laughter). I come up in the store, and I carry my backpack with me everywhere because I’m a huge reader. I read anytime. You never know when you’re gonna get a book. You can be in the store when someone’s you know robbing it and I’ll just kickback and read a book; your ass is going to jail (Laughter). You know I carry bags with me everywhere... .or books in my bag. Oh man, and Grandville’s horrible. It’s horrible. It’s extremely prejudice. God! (Laughter). I can tell you stories of my brothers man, all throughout. It’s,, you gotta watch the eyes, and you can watch it if you’re by any African American; watch like other people’s eyes and you’ll start to see them, or use your peripheral vision, if you’re really good at that, and you’ll see them tend to look maybe do it again, look again and they’ll just do a little of it a few times. I think it’s subconscious. I don’t think they try to do it, but when Africans are portrayed on T.V. as nothing but thugs, gangsters, criminals, drugdealers, thieves, you know, of course they’re gonna think that then. That’s how they portray us in the media. So, that’s the first thing that they think. Any particular stories that you would wanna share? That stands out? Page 4 �Oh, that stands out?, I wouldn’t say Walmart. They pretty much hate everybody. It’s so depressing there. My sister used to work there. It was so depressing! She’d come home with stories and stories. I would say, probably like the local stores. Not too much the local stores. They have to have, or I think they have to have diversity there. So, they just deal with it. Oh! Jenison, good old Jenison. Oh yeah! Everything in Jenison. I ain’t even gonna label something. Everything in Jenison! A little bit in Hudsonville; not too bad. Not that I’ve seen so far because I’m hardily ever out there. I would say those three areas, and my house is right dabbed in the middle too. Did your family experience any of the discrimination or prejudice like right when you moved in to like the neighborhood for example? Not when I moved to when I first moved in, oh man those were probably the worst places I’ve ever lived actually. Not because of prejudice but the landlord was just awful, horrible. In Grandville? Yeah, Grandville! That was the first place we stayed there. I don’t think I’ve ever seen my mom that mad before. My mom is a black Christian lady. (Laughter). They’re supposed to be happy, you know, according to what you see on T.V. of course, and (Laughter). Man, it was horrible. My mom. I was like, “Mom, if you want, I will find somebody, get some drugs, put them in his mailbox and call the cops on him so he can go to jail. But that was just because he was such a shitty landlord. I would say, I don’t think I had any problem with like prejudice. It was more the stereotypes. Of course, you know, we had a few ladies my neighbor downstairs, she used stereotypes. She was like, she said she was trying to hook me up with her daughters, and she was like my daughters real cute and she likes black men. I was like, ok! Cool! I’m ironically black. Did you say that because I am black? How about, she likes an intelligent man. A man who knows how to handle his business; that’s mature; that can handle his own. Nahh, she just would like a black a man. (Laughter). Stuff like that. Like I said, it would just get under my skin, or not anymore. But, I would just brush stuff like that off. Not so much at the place I live now. Oh my gosh! There was this guy who was Hispanic that made the best steak though! Oh my gosh! His name was Robbie too. His steaks were so good! He got deported, but I was so mad, I was so mad. (Laughter). Where do you live now? I live right down the street from where I used to live; Brook Meadow. It’s not too bad. yeah actually that place is not too bad at all actually; it’s a pretty nice place. I don’t think I’ve dealt with anything dramatic there. Now, we met up and our group met up and talked a little bit before this interview, and you told us about a story about what happened in East Grand Rapids. Oh yeth! East Grand Rapids. Yes! Can you tell us about that? (Laughter). Oh man! We came. It was my brother and I. Will, and another guy named Will whom I met for the first time that day; a mutual friend of ours, Sky, and we’re in East Town, you know, just chilling at Page 5 �2 o’clock in the morning. And then all of a sudden, you see like one cop roll by. No big deal. You know, they’re just chilling. They’re always watching the area. Then, another one comes. It’s like 2:01. Another comes. A few more, wow! Something’s going on tonight. (Laughter). So we, you know are just joking around, stating the obvious, but joking about it. And,, they’re just there! They’re not bothering us, they’re just there, and that was the most annoying part. I hate when like cops try to be, like they know that you know that they’re watching, but they’re like you can’t do anything about it. Watch me not do something about it! (Laughter). Man, if I knew my rights back then I would’ve been like excuse me officer is there a problem? No? Pardon me for saying this but get your ass up out of here, or something like that. Man, I think someone probably called the cops on us. We were just chilling though. No, nothing. Weren’t making any trouble, just two in the morning; nothing! But they feel the need for four PT Cruisers or bring like the SWAT team or something. Mr. President, Mr. President! (Laughter). On the subject of that, have you ever had any run-ins with the law, or have you ever had to deal with police officers? Oh my gosh! Look at Grandville man! Of course! Of course! I hate Grandville cops! I’ll get that on the record. I hate Grandville cops. They are the most prejudice mother fuckers I’ve ever met. I got, I say that and when I say that it bs me so much because that gets under my skin. They take their power for abuse so much, and all the one’s I’ve met so far are complete pricks, assholes, and they’ve probably crash their cars a few times from being pricks. I remember let’s see, my brother Carlos was with me when this happened. We were just crossing a bridge and this guy in a PT Cruiser pulls us over and tells us that someone called the cops on us for throwing a rock over the highway. I said, none of us threw a rock over the highway. Backup comes. You know, of course they’ll come for a few black people. Check this out too. Side-note, when you see someone get pulled over, check to see if they’re black. More than likely, you’ll see another cop with them, but if they’re white, only one car. I’ve never seen that happen. I’ve never been around for that so far, anytime. Just watch, Just watch! But, so, the guy pulls up and they’re trying to t us against each other saying all these lies and stuff, saying he said this and he said that. They were trying to get us to commit to something that we did not do., something that I am not a fan of at all, you know, good ole divide and conquer technique. That was one experience. Another one was when it was the whole fam. Me, my brother Carlos, Will, Mo, other Carlos, my cousin, my sister, a few other people, and we were pretending. Now we went to Steak and Shake. We always go to Steak and Shake. They know us there. We practically pay the bills. We went there that often. We pretended to jump our friend Will because you know that’s how we do; we always play around. We actually went to Steak and Shake that night because all of our hearts were broken. My ex cheated on me. My boy, my brother Mo, his ex cheated on him. Will, he, well he was just happy. He was always the happy one! He’s always happy! Never gets anything bad happen to him. I hate that. Well I guess I don’t hate it, but fuck him! (Laughter). But so we were there for that reason, and later on that night, like 3 PT Cruisers, I’m talking about spotlights, flashlights, yelling. Like, dude that’s not necessary! They,, I guess someone in Steak and Shake called saying that we jumped someone and ran, but I was like no! They know us. They know us. We tipped pretty good there too We stopped tipping that night. (Laughter). But yeah they were a bunch of complete pricks. I got pulled over No! This actually happened a month ago. I was walking home from work. I saw a PT Cruiser drive down and then t around and drive back. Page 6 �I’ve seen them six times by the time I walked over the highway. Then, I saw another one because I was taking a note of the number behind the truck, and it was a different one. They went by another three times. Then, when was just getting across the street from where I lived, I saw another one come by and I was like really. I called my mom and I was like, if you don’t see my tonight that’s because I’m in jail about to beat some cops ass! Like that is not even necessary to go back and forth almost ten times. hat’s just, that’s just, I don’t know! Makes abrother wanna really do something! That, that, can you imagine how enraged I felt? To be you know kind of pointed out that strongly. Fuck the Grandville cops! So how many times, have you counted having any problems with police total? Psht, 8 that I can say off the top of my head. How many times have you guys actually done anything wrong? Once And what was that? smokin and drivin. Only time. What happen, would you say you were treated (Yeah) worse because... Actually no that was the nicest cop I have ever met from Grandville. He said he was going to let me go, until his prick boss showed up. And I know when he who he was too, he was the other one, he was the guy that pulled me over that night at Steak and Shake. He was the one that was yelling at us. I remember because of his mustache. (snicker) Yeah that was him, wow, I just now realized that. Buth yea it is, it is besides Grand Rapids cops, Grandville has to be the worst. What about Grand Rapids police makes them worse? I would say because their downtown, were a lot of the Africans are. And they, I feel like they have such a mindset that whenever you see a black dude in the hood, they say ‘get him, he is up to no good’. Grandville give at least one percent of the downtown, at least, Er,, Grand Rapids cops none. Yeah. When I actually went to jail,h, last year forh smoking and drivin, heh, one of the guys that I was with in my holding cell he said that we wasn’t doin nothing. He just got,h, for jay walkin. Jay walkin, Two in the morning. Two in the morning! Jay walking! For real? Take him to jail for that? WOAH! I didn’t know that you get pulled over for that. Haha I thought the most that they could give you was like a ticket. Like a fine. I think he didn’t know his rights, I think that what it was. I think heh,h, did a little selfincriminating himself, maybe he had a pass, maybe he had a warrant or something. But,h, but for jay walking. What is that? So go to jail, I was like dang man. When did you start paying attention to your rights and like your experiences with the cops and being able to stick up for yourself? Page 7 �Umm it was, man, it was like last year, soh, I would say after the judge after he told me aft... I would say, NO! it was my first probation check-up. I just got off probation yesterday actually Wooh! Congratulations. Thank you very much, never wanna do that system again.I would say right after probation because you know in my mind, Yeah. I should say in my mind I chose to justify what I did. You know that I shouldn’t happen driving while I was high but still don’t let, don’t even let me get started on why it should be illegal. Don’t let me get started. I will run, I will run every single fact. You know to Chad, who was my probation officer, why marijuana should not be legal. Or Illegal or at least decriminalized because it is just a herb. It will beat out the pharmacy industry (Snap) just like that, because you can grow it. Boom. There goes all these pharisaical industries that making millions of dollars off that. You know to keep us sick constantly. Now how many deaths has marijuana had, Zero. How many from overdosing on pills? I can’t count on my hands because I don’t have that much. What they say like ten people, or at least like 10 people die every hour from overdosing on pills? That’s a fucked up statistic right there. NowI started paying attention to after that, that mindset. And I was like, h something’s not right. Why are we, why am I kind of in this bondage right here. This is a system set up to fail. Not just for Africans, but for minorities. Or I wouldn’t say minorities because the people who concerned this land was minorities themselves. So I would say the natives. System set up to enslave the natives once more. Because Christopher Columbus he came here and how many Native Americans did he kill? Whoo. And then they want to label them the illegal immigrants. For real. Haha. So after that, after that I was like I need to learn my rights because the constitutional, or well our constitutional rights that we have or so called constitutional rights, I need to know those. Because I have no idea that I could have told the officer, no do you have a warrant to search my car officer. If I would have said that I would have been good. Constitutional rights. Did not know that at all. So I was like I need to start educating myself on the land that I live. If this is, if this is really a system set up to fail for myself I need to know, I need to learn the rules, I need to learn how to play the game. So at least learn how the game works and thankfully a manager at Art Van thath, that helped me understand that. I was like, yeah learn my rights, I learned a whole bunch. flaha. I learned a lot and that is what, now that I am off probation,I know my rights. And I know what I can and cannot do. And I cannot say, and I will exercise every single rights that I have. Haha That’s so good because I cannot say that I, that I know my rights, to where if! was pulled over or something like that. I kinda wondered the same thing like I didn’t know any of my rights at all. Until I would say some time last year me and a couple buddies were just drinking in the dorms and we didn’t even have to let the cops in. And like they were saying all this stuff like oo you have to let us in like making us like rethink like what we were doing like you have to let us in. Like if you don’t right now we will break down the door. We were like shit. You know they came in there we were being completely cooperative and gave them all the alcohol we had. And they still gave us all MIPs and shit. Mhm. So I mean form like that moment on we were all like shit we need to learn like all the stuff about underage drinking and all that. Just so that like all that stuff doesn’t happen again.uu. I mean I agree with you, I mean like it is almost like not just for minorities but the system sets up to fail you just... Page 8 �Anyone who is ignorant, anyone. I would say defiantly to that to, that was like abE. Like when you go to parties, you know people are freaking out. Oh my god cops are here! Cops are here! Everybody runnin, just dippin out. Yea and what they don’t know is unless they have a warrant they can’t do anything. Exactly. Yeah you give them permission to come in. That’s a whole different topic right there. Haha right. Shifting gears, you originally, yeah we are just going to forget Segway’s. You when back to Grandville High School recently and an interesting observation you told us about a few weeks ago, about the stair case. Oh yea man, we had, we called it the cool, it was where all the cool cats went. You know. Wasn’t even discriminating against no blacks whites man. You know blacks are supposed to skip because they don’t like to go to class. Minorities come and so we are all just chillin back over there probably abouthh two and a half months ago they sealed it up. And I know that I was because it was all a bunch of minorities there you know blacks whites also. and everybody was just chilling there. I would say it was race motivated but covered up very well. You know just like they always do with everything. Haha. It is very, you know it is a distraction. Well why is it a distraction? Because you just a talking too loud about standing there. Some people have KCDC they get out of class and they would just go and chill you know like right below the stairs. You know it’s not that much of a distraction, kind of like when I I think that they were afraid. Actually I think that some of the people on the staff were afraid of a littleethnicity. I have like when I have a keffiyeh I don’t know if you ever saw it but I have like a keffiyeh wrapped around just like this you know it is cold. Seven in the morning ya’ll got, ya’ll told me I had to be here at seven in the morning. I am going to wear something to keep myself warm. I’m sorry, I don’t wanna come here in the first place. Hah. Who wants to go to high school at seven in the morning. I remember Mr. Vanderslice started chasing me down because I was like no I’m not taking it off. NO! It was a shirt, it was a shirt on top of my head. That’s what it was. I had a shirt on top of my head. That’s stupid! That’s what I am saying! I had a shirt on my head, and one of the ambassadors, chased me all the way to my class just to yell at me. And you best believe that I did not just step back. I was yelling right back. Thankfully my mind, the thought in my mind was to check out the rules. You know, understand everysingle rule, and use that against him. I was like naw there aint nothing against that code book. Your wrong, it does not say that I cannot wear something on my head that’s not seven. Lets see school starts at 7:15 and it aint 7:15 yet. So I don’t have to take the shirt off. Couldn’t do nothing about it. School started at 7:50 7:50 yeah. Couldn’t do nothing about it, I was like ppht, what are you going to do? Violate it I dare you! Page 9 �So was the anything about the shirt, or was it just a regular shirt? Plain old white t-shirt man. I just wearin it on my head, just wearin it on my head. Now moving on to the keffiyeh. Which is? Which is Middle Eastern, soyou know automatic I am Muslim. So people think automatically he is a terrorist. You know lets get, it out of the way. Anytime anyone is wrapping a keffiyeh around their head, in fast the wrap it around their heads because there’s deserts snow storms, So in order to keep the snow, ornot snow Sand storms Stand storms yeah, so they want to keep the sand out of their face. Well its Michigan, it snows I wanna keep the snow out of my face. So I used to water that tornm, when I walked in, everybody’s lookin at me. Whats he doin? Muslim. He is a terrorist. Because that all the, that’s all the media labels them. So we see Muslim terrorist, let’s be honest, let’s be real. Hahah. That’s all they see. They made a big deal about that. I was like yo, it’s not 7:50 yet. I’m not taking it off. You know this is a, I’m not Muslim or Islam, buth I do respect their culture. It is part of my history because remorse. So as part of my history, I embrace all of my culture, not just a little bit of it. So, they couldn’t do nothing about that either. Fight the power. Yeah you mentioned like the media, and how minorities seem to be misrepresented in it.do you have any thoughts about how that could change or, if it can change? Oh man was have to go to the core then because how that started was actually a break off from the Crow laws. That is how they got that in there. They intertwined Jim Crows laws with the media so that whenever someone sees a black person the automatically, you know subconsciously he is up to no good. Yeah like stereotypes Yeah exactly. He is automaticallyh, you know a grand banger. He is automatically high as hell right now. He is black, he is supposed to smoke weed. Dark lips, big dark lips you know. Lie Obama, what is it with Obama, they said that he had weed lips or something like that. I don’t remember, but they they put that, they attached that stereotype to him as well. In order to beat something like that you gotta take down the media because they have control of the mass. Everybody watches TV, everybody watches TV. So if everyone is tuned in on this psychological brainwash machine. Of course everybody is going to think that black person, he aint up to no good, no good at all. So I would say yeah, to, I like to get to the very core of everything I don’t like to,racism isn’t here you know it is 2012 we all matured (In a sarcastic voice). Really? Did you just tune into the Zimmerman case? Why aint he in jail? He shot and killed a 17 year-old who had a bag of skittles. For one the dude was 28 years-old. He shot him dead in a gated community, which was predominantly white in Florida, And why isn’t he in jail. This kid was 17 years-old and he is dead, isn’t that murder? Supposedly he is the head watchman of the, you know the supervising, you know that watch ting. So to say that racism isn’t still here in the United States, that is Page 10 �ridiculous. Racism is still here. It is just in a different way. It is just like energy. Energy was never created of destroyed, it was transformed. Racism was BOOM right in your face, now it’s you know transformed into this thing called the media and I lables every single race, not just blacks, Latinos, Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Europeans, even American, everything! They have got a label for everyone. And why are we trying to be labels, im not trying to be labeled. I wanna created my own identity. That’s the problem, nobody has their own identity. On the subject of identity, earlier you said you talked about stuff that was part of your heritage. You are obviously very proud of you African American heritage. And one way you show it is through your Facebook name. It is very unique. Would you like to tell us what it is? Oh yea that’s why I tell people anytime they wanna find me on Facebook, you will not find me. I will find you. Hahah. My name on Facebook is Brotha Taffiti Savo Hakeema Jafarr . And the reason why I chose that name was it is the name Hakeema is Swahili for wisdom, and I have that tattooed on my back from shoulder blade to shoulder blade. I believe in that so heavily because without wisdom, or the name Taffiti means knowledge seeker and Savo means order and Hakeema is wisdom so you know with the right knowledge and wisdom comes order, creating your identity basically. And that propelled me into what I want to do. It gave me a new foundation for myself. how to give like a new label for myself. And not even a label but to just know who I am period. You know, growing up as a child where are all of the black figures. There are hardly and African doll figures. Identity crisis right there. You know you want to get your niece a doll, but there’s only white ones. Not saying there is anything wrong with white ones, but why give a white one to a black one who is constantly seeing all this propaganda against blacks. You know, she has no idea who she is, she is getting this false identification of herself. So just right away that shows the importance of a diverse. You know be a little diverse. Why have too much ofjust one thing? Spread it out, shave to love. You know? Share the wealth, or at least get another black baby doll damn. Put that on the store shelves jeeze (laughing). Just change it up a little you know, that all a brotha can ask. There is one other thing about you that makes you unique. Especially for Grandville is that you are Atheist.and Facebook is the biggest, most notable way that you talk about it. Have you, has anyone ever called you out on it? Oh man we have a different idea that goes against the traditional or mainstream way, no everybody believes this, but that one idea that is controversial to everyone else. It was like what’s up with this guy. What’s wrong with him?I wasespecially, I wouldn’t say. Well I learned actually that there are different forms of Atheism. There is an Atheism that does not believe in a god at all, or super natural things. And there isthe atheism that does not believe in the three main traditional religions, the Abrahamic religions, Islamic, Christianity and Judaism. That came for a lost identification of myself. I grew up as a Christian, you know my mom told me that I was going to church, I was going to like it, no if ands or buts. As a little kid I was like I have to, and ah I went not because I wanted to but because I had to. And it never gave me a change tochose what I wanted to believe in. and the problem with a lot of religions, the problem I would say is just based on my research, a lot of people do not do research on religions or what they believe. A lot of people go to history. People don’t wanna research the dark things, the positive and Page 11 �negative. Everybody is looking as the positive, which is great cool, but if you’re not looking at the negative... Well remember if you do not know you history, then you are going to repeat it. People repeating history because of their lack of knowledge, with is also the Facebook thing. Every time a see Taffiti is motivates me. Knowledge seeker you know, that’s what I am. Keep studying, keep reading, keep bringing books everywhere. Nothing is going to stop me. And that was one of the biggest thing I ever had to do. Was let go of my belief of Christianity because it was a grips of fear if you do not believe in a doctrine, you are going to hell. Who wants to go to hell? Somebody raise they hands if they wanna go to hell. (nobody moves) Exactly! That was the biggest thing for me, I had to let go of the fear of risking my sole that is eternal in an eternal place where you die even though you are already dead. You di even more I guess. So I did a lot of research of the translations of hell You know all the translations of Hebrew of actually Arabic to Hebrew to Latin to English; you know studying all those words because I am a big studier. I study every single word, I don’t do broad things. If I am going to check Genesis 101 I will check every single word in every single translation. I will get the idea, I am not just going to go skating by. That’s what most people do, well I have the King James version so. Well did you know King James was a really wicked dude. He performed bestiality, he was extremely in to.. I forgot what it was. But the dude rewrote the bible to keep his throne in power. Now anybody that reuses, or rewrite something against his or against his people or against his power, not going to be like woah what did he change so he could keep his power? A lot of people change things, I like to get to the source, like I said to the core. And I found my identity you know the furthest that I have researched so far, which is Egypt, also the Comets. The traveled for Ethiopia to Sudan, followed the Nile River and the landed in Egypt, or Comet at the time. And that is the my belief system because that is the very core that I have seen so far and it may change. I love when my, what I believe in is challeneged, because that gives me the chance to learn because I get to see another area. So that yeah especially going to Grandville to, you know there morals are all white and Christian. But my joey spiritually has not started since last year. No it was probably about a year and a half. So I would say if I want to Grandville High School with the knowledge that I have now shit would be completely different. I would probably be in college right now. Well I would be in college actually right now if I didn’t break my wrist. Was there a certain like factor that like caused you to start studying and following Atheism? Umm I would say that, I would say that I am very passionate about the black community If there is somebody that doesn’t know this I love who I am. I love being black. I love being who I am not say that being not black isn’t cool. That is just who I am and I would say that I was I questioned what is wrong with the black community today. We are not educated, we do not know our own history, I cannot even find or think of any history class that taught me that starting civilizations in Africa. I had to figure that out on my own. They didn’t tell me that my ancestors where ancient Egyptians were astrology came forum, and mathematics, and a lot of the Greeks got their information from Ancient Egypt. Where Plato always referred to Ancient Egypt. I was not told that a lot of the three religions are deep rooted in African traditions. So I questioned that. And I didn’t really have a bone to pick with Christianity so I was really upset that no one ever told me what was really going on. Because my mom didn’t know, she didn’t ask those questions. My mom actually grew up on Rockford, Oh my god my whole family actually grew up in Rockford. Now they are my age, the grew up in the 60’s, 70’s, 80’s so I don’t think that they Page 12 �had time to think about that, They were having a hard enough time just getting through the day in Rockford. So I questioned my community, and the thing is they were mentally brainwashed through generations and generations and generations of slavery. A lot of Africans don’t know that their ancestors were already here before Columbus was here. I’m not talking about the Native American. I’m talking about the Africans that traveled from Africa to America and was here before Christopher Columbus came here and slaughtered them all. There’s a Holocaust that’s worst then the Jewish Holocaust. They didn’t teach me that. I can’t even tell you how many of millions of millions Columbus killed. This mother fucker got his own national day! What is going on? I’m celebrating Christopher Columbus in elementary school and I ain’t learn that this dude killed how many of my people? Did that go over your head America? (Laughter). Oh yeah by the way you know. After that I was just like wow this is bullshit I wanna learn a lot. That’s what did it. That’s what sparked that into me and I was like I gotta make my brother and sisters, I have taken it on my own personal mission to educate as many Africans, brothers and sisters, as we can. Not limited to Africans but that’s my field of study right now. So that’s what I have to focus because if one particular group is lacking you know in success and everything then that creates an off balance you know? If I can be the foundation or the starting black for that to happen then cool you know. That’s very interesting that you say that you wanna try to educate as many African Americans as you can. What means or steps are you taking to do that? Right now? Learning. Only thing I can do. I can’t teach them if I don’t know them yet. So I have to learn every single thing or as much as I can at least. The history, all the contradictions, even what I believe I have to study the contradictions against that so I can make sure that’s the right information. If Tm learning you know everything started in Africa you know blah blah blah, and Tm being hard headed for that then if Tm not having any information to go against that, then I’m just blindly following this just because I’m solely for it but if I have you know a pro and a con, you know and I can make a wise or intelligent decision based on that fact you know then I’m pretty good for it. You know ask me anything that might contradict and I’ll probably know the answer to it and I can probably overcome that projection because that’s what I study. Have any of your friends that you have shared some of your knowledge with, what is their reaction to it? Are they interested in it? Do the believe it? Man, let’s see. I would say who? More specifically my brothers and sisters or like white friends I have? Yeah Let’s start with family I guess Oh I’m always educating my mom and sister constantly. That’s kind of why they’re upset that I’m moving because I have studied a lot I think and there hasn’t been a day in the past two years that I have not been studying. I am a hard core studier. I have a fiery passion to learn and a lot people don’t do that. Especially in the black community it is considered geeky or nerdy, or they will call you one of them smart niggers. What does that mean? I’m a smart what? So it’s not cool to know you shit but it’s cool to be in jail acting all stupid, shooting you own brothers and sisters, calling your sisters hoes, bitch. Calling them Page 13 �all these names that aren’t necessary, but yet that’s cool? For real? Dog you’ve been brain washed so good and I’ve been teaching my whole family and my mom and sister. Every time I have family come home from Georgia I always give a little bit more knowledge you know. Even going out to my brothers, my brother Carlos I’m always teaching him. Sharing stuff that I’ve learned. Even if it contradicts that he’s learned but that’s the best part you know? Not forcing stuff that I know in his head, but going check this information, what have you learned about this? Does it seem right? Does it contradict? Let’s get an answer for this. My brother Will, smartest mother fucker I know so far. I think it’s because he’s half black and half white. I think that’s what it is. He has the perfect balance. (Laughter). He’s very crucial, fucking hard headed, he has facts. He’s been home schooled actually. He’s been reading since he was ten years old. I’ve only been reading, legitimately reading, for like two years now. So I have an eight year gap to catch up to him. Motivation. Pure motivation right there. What about when you tell your friends of what you know? Black or white. Leave that to Facebook my friend. Facebook, like I said I don’t hold back. I say it like it is. Why hold back you know? I’m not gonna put like a band aid solution on things I’m just gonna tell it raw. In my past I’ve been very stupid and ignorant, and one-sided with my posts just because I was in that mind where I was rebellious or I was rebellious to you know Christianity just point blank, but that’s because I’ve always known you know? I’ve only met you know certain Christians that are like love Jesus, stop saying blah, stop smoking blah. devil is real blah, you’re going to hell you know? Well fuck you. Some were my family. Some were my friends. So it was a really tough time for me. So after that, I was like hmm let me re-think this? You know, I’m acting just like the people that I do not like. So i completely re-switched the way I come out with information and it’s actually helping out. People are actually seeing it from my point of view now. Questioning. Why? Why is everything like this? That’s the big thing, questioning. You don’t question, you won’t get answers, and when you question everything until you can’t question why no more. There you go. That’s the core. When you tell a religious person that you’re Atheist what’s the typical response from them? Oh, you know I don’t even tell people I’m Atheist. Actually, it’s so funny I was on the bus before and there was this white dude and I don’t what put, what, I don’t know. It was just out of nowhere. I’m just on the bus listening to my music. You know, jamming. Out of nowhere he goes are you Christian? Im like no. Why? And this is in my time when I’m like completely anti- Christian and I’m like blah blah I don’t wanna hear it. Stop forcing this shit. Get out of my face. Stop! Stop! You know, he was just like talking about Jesus stuff like that. I was like cool, cool. Stop forcing it down. Stop. I’m gonna tell you a little bit something about yourself or about your religion and you’re not gonna like it so chill, and he got off the bus. See, I said it nicely, you know, but that kinds of like what I was giving him. I dropped a little bit of knowledge and he couldn’t even understand what I was talking about. A lot of people don’t know about Jesus. What is Jesus? Jesus comes from, if you look at the history of words, Jesus comes from the Greek god Zeus and Jahova, the Hebrew word for god. They put Jahova and Zeus together and it’s Jesus. That wasn’t his name because he spoke in Arabic at that time. Arabic is basically Hebrew. The Hebrew word that they translated from Christ which was Greek for one who’s anointed his real name was Oshua. There’s no J in the Hebrew Bible so how can his name be Jesus if there was no J in the Hebrew Bible? Oshua was his name and he didn’t even know that. So I was like people don’t research their own history. They don’t look in those dark corners. Page 14 �Going back a little, back into the family issue, you talked about earlier how your mom is a dedicated Christian. More specifically, how did she deal with you converting to Atheism? I told her gently, slowly, very calmly. Me and my mom are extremely close. She is the only female who has not broken my heart. So I’m like big ups to you Mom. Single parent you know? My dad’s out doing his own shit. He was not a big factor in my life except for buying me a lot of shoes. Go dad! Thanks for the shoes. Like I said, my mom and I are really close so wow, that was tough. I was like, I don’t know how to tell you this Mom, but I don’t believe in what you believe in anymore, but I still love you, but I’m not going to hell because I know this. Don’t judge. But, you know, it was not tough, it was really hard actually. That was the probably the toughest three months I’ve ever had, was constantly thinking, how can I tell her without being extremely upset. My mom cried because Kia got a tattoo. Now, she is definitely not gonna like when I tell her I don’t believe in Christianity. I was like holy shit. So you know Kia has a daughter. Beautiful, beautiful daughter. So how many times, have you counted having any problems with police total? Psht, 8 that I can say off the top of my head How many times have you guys actually done anything wrong? Once And what was that? smokin and drivin. Only time What happen, would you say you were treated (Yeah) worse because... Actually no that was the nicest cop I have ever met from Grandville. He said he was going to let me go, until his prick boss showed up. And I know when he who he was too, he was the other one, he was the guy that pulled me over that night at Steak and Shake. He was the one that was yelling at us. I remember because of his mustache. (snicker) Yeah that was him, wow, I just now realized that. Buth yea it is, it is besides Grand Rapids cops, Grandville has to be the worst. What about Grand Rapids police makes them worse? I would say because their downtown, were a lot of the Africans are. And they, I feel like they have such a mindset that whenever you see a black dude in the hood, they say ‘get him, he is up to no good’. Grandville give at least one percent of the downtown, at least, Er,, Grand Rapids cops none. Yeah. When I actually went to jail,h, last year forh smoking and drivin, heh, one of the guys that I was with in my holding cell he said that we wasn’t doin nothing. He just got,h. for jay walkin. Jay walkin, Two in the morning. Two in the morning! Jay walking! For real? Take him to jail for that? WOAH! I didn’t know that you get pulled over for that. Haha I thought the most that they could give you was like a ticket. Like a fine. I think he didn’t know his rights, I think that what it was. I think heh,h, did a little self incriminating himself, maybe he had a pass, maybe he had a warrant or something. But,h, but for jay walking. What is that? So go to jail, I was like dang man. Page 15 �When did you start paying attention to your rights and like your experiences with the cops and being able to stick up for yourself? Umm it was, man, it was like last year, soh, I would say after the judge after he told me aft... I would say, NO! it was my first probation check-up. I just got off probation yesterday actually Wooh! Congratulations. Thank you very much, never wanna do that system again. Umm I would say right after probation because you know in my mind, Yeah. I should say in my mind I chose to justify what I did. You know that I shouldn’t happen driving while I was high but still don’t let, don’t even let me get started on why it should be illegal. Don’t let me get started. I will run, I will run every single fact. You know to Chad, who was my probation officer, why marijuana should not be legal. Or Illegal or at least decriminalized because it is just a herb. It will beat out the pharmacy industry (Snap) just like that, because you can grow it. Boom. There goes all these pharisaical industries that making millions of dollars off that. You know to keep us sick constantly. Now how many deaths has marijuana had, Zero. How many from overdosing on pills? I can’t count on my hands because I don’t have that much. What they say like ten people, or at least like 10 people die every hour from overdosing on pills? That’s a flicked up statistic right there. NowI started paying attention to after that, that mindset. And I was like, h something’s not right. Why are we, why am I kind of in this bondage right here. This is a system set up to fail. Not just for Africans, but for minorities. Or I wouldn’t say minorities because the people who concerned this land was minorities themselves. So I would say the natives. System set up to enslave the natives once more. Because Christopher Columbus he came here and how many Native Americans did he kill? Whoo. And then they want to label them the illegal immigrants. For real. Haha. So after that, after that I was like I need to learn my rights because the constitutional, or well our constitutional rights that we have or so called constitutional rights, I need to know those. Because I have no idea that I could have told the officer, no do you have a warrant to search my car officer. If I would have said that I would have been good. Constitutional rights. Did not know that at all. So I was like I need to start educating myself on the land that I live. If this is, if this is really a system set up to fail for myself, I need to know, I need to learn the rules, I need to learn how to play the game. So at least learn how the game works and thankfully a manager at Art Van thath, that helped me understand that. I was like, yeah learn my rights, I learned a whole bunch. 1-laha. I learned a lot and that is what, now that I am off probation,I know my rights. And I know what I can and cannot do. And I cannot say, and I will exercise every single rights that I have. Haha That’s so good because I cannot say that I, that I know my rights, to where if! was pulled over or something like that. I kinda wondered the same thing like I didn’t know any of my rights at all. Until I would say some time last year me and a couple buddies were just drinking in the dorms and we didn’t even have to let the cops in. And like they were saying all this stuff like oo you have to let us in like making us like rethink like what we were doing like you have to let us in. Like if you don’t right now we will break down the door. We were like shit. You know they came in there we were being completely cooperative and gave them all the alcohol we had. And they still gave us all MIPs and shit. Mhm. So I mean form like that moment on we were all like shit we need to learn like all the stuff about underage drinking and all that. Just so that Page 16 �like all that stuff doesn’t happen again.uu. I mean I agree with you, I mean like it is almost like not just for minorities but the system sets up to fail you just... Anyone who is ignorant, anyone. I would say defiantly to that to, that was like ahh. Like when you go to parties, you know people are freaking out. Oh my god cops are here! Cops are here! Everybody runnin, just dippin out. Yea and what they don’t know is unless they have a warrant they can’t do anything. Exactly. Yeah you give them permission to come in. That’s a whole different topic right there. Haha right. Shifting gears, you originally, yeah we are just going to forget Segway’s. You when back to Grandville High School recently and an interesting observation you told us about a few weeks ago, about the stair case. Oh yea man, we had, we called it the cool, it was where all the cool cats went. You know. Wasn’t even discriminating against no blacks whites man. You know blacks are supposed to skip because they don’t like to go to class. Minorities come and so we are all just chillin back over there probably abouthh two and a half months ago they sealed it up. And I know that I was because it was all a bunch of minorities there you know blacks whites also. and everybody was just chilling there. I would say it was race motivated but covered up very well. You know just like they always do with everything. Haha. It is very, you know it is a distraction. Well why is it a distraction? Because you just a talking too loud about standing there. Some people have KCDC they get out of class and they would just go and chill you know like right below the stairs. You know it’s not that much of a distraction, kind of like when I I think that they were afraid. Actually I think that some of the people on the staff were afraid of a littleethnicity. I have like when I have a keffiyeh I don’t know if you ever saw it but I have like a keffiyeh wrapped around just like this you know it is cold. Seven in the morning ya’ll got, ya’ll told me I had to be here at seven in the morning. I am going to wear something to keep myself warm. I’m sorry, I don’t wanna come here in the first place. Hah. Who wants to go to high school at seven in the morning. I remember Mr. Vanderslice started chasing me down because I was like no I’m not taking it off. NO! It was a shirt, it was a shirt on top of my head. That’s what it was. I had a shirt on top of my head. That’s stupid! That’s what I am saying! I had a shirt on my head, and one of the ambassadors, chased me all the way to my class just to yell at me. And you best believe that I did not just step back. I was yelling right back. Thankfully my mind, the thought in my mind was to check out the rules. You know, understand everysingle rule, and use that against him. I was like naw there aint nothing against that code book. Your wrong, it does not say that I cannot wear something on my head that’s not seven. Lets see school starts at 7:15 and it aint 7:15 yet. So I don’t have to take the shirt off. Couldn’t do nothing about it. School started at 7:50 7:50 yeah. Couldn’t do nothing about it, I was like ppht, what are you going to do? Violate it I dare you! Page 17 �So was the anything about the shirt, or was it just a regular shirt? Plain old white t-shirt man. I just wearin it on my head, just wearin it on my head. Now moving on to the keffiyeh. Which is? Which is Middle Eastern, soyou know automatic I am Muslim. So people think automatically he is a terrorist. You know lets get, it out of the way. Anytime anyone is wrapping a keffiyeh around their head, in fast the wrap it around their heads because there’s deserts snow storms. So in order to keep the snow, ornot snow Sand storms Stand storms yeah, so they want to keep the sand out of their face. Well its Michigan, it snows I wanna keep the snow out of my face. So I used to water that to when I walked in, everybody’s lookin at me. Whats he doin? Muslim. He is a terrorist. Because that all the, that’s all the media labels them. So we see Muslim terrorist, let’s be honest, let’s be real. Hahah. That’s all they see. They made a big deal about that. I was like yo, it’s not 7:50 yet. I’m not taking it off. You know this is a, I’m not Muslim or Islam, buth I do respect their culture. It is part of my history because remorse. So as part of my history, I embrace all of my culture, not just a little bit of it. So, they couldn’t do nothing about that either. Fight the power. Yeah you mentioned like the media, and how minorities seem to be misrepresented in it.do you have any thoughts about how that could change or, if it can change? Oh man was have to go to the core then because how that started was actually a break off from the Crow laws. That is how they got that in there. They intertwined Jim Crows laws with the media so that whenever someone sees a black person the automatically, you know subconsciously he is up to no good. Yeah like stereotypes Yeah exactly. He is automaticallyh, you know a grand banger. He is automatically high as hell right now. He is black, he is supposed to smoke weed. Dark lips, big dark lips you know. Lie Obama, what is it with Obama, they said that he had weed lips or something like that. I don’t remember, but they they put that, they attached that stereotype to him as well. In order to beat something like that you gotta take down the media because they have control of the mass. Everybody watches TV, everybody watches TV. So if everyone is tuned in on this psychological brainwash machine. Of course everybody is going to think that black person, he aint up to no good, no good at all. So I would say yeah, to, I like to get to the very core of everything I don’t like to,racism isn’t here you know it is 2012 we all matured (In a sarcastic voice). Really? Did you just tune into the Zimmerman case? Why aint he in jail? He shot and killed a 17 year-old who had a bag of skittles. For one the dude was 28 years-old. He shot him dead in a gated community, which was predominantly white in Florida, And why isn’t he in jail. This kid was 17 years-old and he is dead, isn’t that murder? Supposedly he is the head watchman of the, you know the supervising, you know that watch ting. So to say that racism isn’t still here in the United States, that is ridiculous. Racism is still here. It is just in a different way. It is just like energy. Energy was never created of destroyed, it was transformed. Racism was BOOM right in your face, now it’s you know transformed into this thing called the media and I lables every single race, not just blacks, Latinos, Korean, Chinese, Japanese, Europeans, even American, everything! They have got a label for everyone. And why are we trying to be labels, im Page 18 �not trying to be labeled. I wanna created my own identity. That’s the problem, nobody has their own identity. On the subject of identity, earlier you said you talked about stuff that was part of your heritage. You are obviously very proud of you African American heritage. And one way you show it is through your Facebook name. It is very unique. Would you like to tell us what it is? Oh yea that’s why I tell people anytime they wanna find me on Facebook, you will not find me. I will find you. Hahah. My name on Facebook is Brotha Taffiti Savo Hakeema Jafarr . And the reason why I chose that name was it is the name Hakeema is Swahili for wisdom, and I have that tattooed on my back from shoulder blade to shoulder blade. I believe in that so heavily because without wisdom, or the name Taffiti means knowledge seeker and Savo means order and Hakeema is wisdom so you know with the right knowledge and wisdom comes order, creating your identity basically. And that propelled me into what I want to do. It gave me a new foundation for myself, .n how to give like a new label for myself. And not even a label but to just know who I am period. You know, growing up as a child where are all of the black figures. There are hardly and African doll figures. Identity crisis right there. You know you want to get your niece a doll, but there’s only white ones. Not saying there is anything wrong with white ones, but why give a white one to a black one who is constantly seeing all this propaganda against blacks. You know, she has no idea who she is, she is getting this false identification of herself So just right away that shows the importance of a diverse. You know be a little diverse. Why have too much ofjust one thing? Spread it out, shave to love. You know? Share the wealth, or at least get another black baby doll damn. Put that on the store shelves jeeze (laughing). Just change it up a little you know, that all a brotha can ask. There is one other thing about you that makes you unique. Especially for Grandville is that you are Atheist.and Facebook is the biggest, most notable way that you talk about it. Have you, has anyone ever called you out on it? Oh man we have a different idea that goes against the traditional or mainstream way, no everybody believes this, but that one idea that is controversial to everyone else. It was like what’s up with this guy. What’s wrong with him?rn I wasespecially, I wouldn’t say. Well I learned actually that there are different forms of Atheism. There is an Atheism that does not believe in a god at all, or super natural things. And there isthe atheism that does not believe in the three main traditional religions, the Abrahamic religions, Islamic, Christianity and Judaism. That came for a lost identification of myself I grew up as a Christian, you know my mom told me that I was going to church, I was going to like it, no if ands or buts. As a little kid I was like I have to, and ah I went not because I wanted to but because I had to. And it never gave me a change torn chose what I wanted to believe in. and the problem with a lot of religions, the problem I would say is just based on my research, a lot of people do not do research on religions or what they believe. A lot of people go to history. People don’t wanna research the dark things, the positive and negative. Everybody is looking as the positive, which is great cool, but if you’re not looking at the negative... Well remember if you do not know you history, then you are going to repeat it. People repeating history because of their lack of knowledge, with is also the Facebook thing. Every time a see Taffiti is motivates me. Knowledge seeker you know, that’s what I am. Keep studying, keep reading, keep bringing books everywhere. Nothing is going to stop me. And that was one of the biggest thing I ever had to do. Was let go of my belief of Christianity because it was a grips of fear if you do not believe in a doctrine, you are going to hell. Who wants to go to hell? Somebody raise they hands if they wanna go to hell. (nobody moves) Exactly! That was the biggest thing for me, I had to let go of the fear of risking my Page 19 �sole that is eternal in an eternal place where you die even though you are already dead. You di even more I guess. So I did a lot of research of the translations of hell You know all the translations of Hebrew of actually Arabic to Hebrew to Latin to English; you know studying all those words because I am a big studier. I study every single word, I don’t do broad things. If I am going to check Genesis 1011 will check every single word in every single translation. I will get the idea, I am not just going to go skating by. That’s what most people do, well I have the King James version so. Well did you know King James was a really wicked dude. He performed bestiality, he was extremely in to.. I forgot what it was. But the dude rewrote the bible to keep his throne in power. Now anybody that reuses, or rewrite something against his or against his people or against his power, not going to be like woah what did he change so he could keep his power? A lot of people change things, I like to get to the source, like I said to the core. And I found my identity you know the furthest that I have researched so far, which is Egypt, also the Comets. The traveled for Ethiopia to Sudan, followed the Nile River and the landed in Egypt, or Comet at the time. And that is the my belief system because that is the very core that I have seen so far and it may change. I love when my, what I believe in is challeneged, because that gives me the chance to learn because I get to see another area. So that yeah wxpecially going to Grandville to, you know there morals are all white and Christian. But my joey spiritually has not started since last year. No it was probably about a year and a half. So I would say if I want to Grandville High School with the knowledge that I have now shit would be completely different. I would probably be in college right now. Well I would be in college actually right now if I didn’t break my wrist. Was there a certain like factor that like caused you to start studying and following Atheism? Umm I would say that, I would say that I am very passionate about the black community If there is somebody that doesn’t know this I love who I am. I love being black. I love being who I am not say that being not black isn’t cool. That is just who I am and I would say that I was I questioned what is wrong with the black community today. We are not educated, we do not know our own history, I cannot even find or think of any history class that taught me that starting civilizations in Africa. I had to figure that out on my own. They didn’t tell me that my ancestors where ancient Egyptians were astrology came forum, and mathematics, and a lot of the Greeks got their information from Ancient Egypt. Where Plato always referred to Ancient Egypt. I was not told that a lot of the three religions are deep rooted in African traditions. So I questioned that. And I didn’t really have a bone to pick with Christianity so I was really upset that no one ever told me what was really going on. Because my mom didn’t know, she didn’t ask those questions. My mom actually grew up on Rockford, Oh my god my whole family actually grew up in Rockford. Now they are my age, the grew up in the 60’s, 70’s, 80’s so I don’t think that they had time to think about that, They were having a hard enough time just getting through the day in Rockford. So I questioned my community, and the thing is they were mentally brainwashed through generations and generations and generations of slavery. Yeah and she has a daughter named Zira. My first niece. Yeah uncle over here. Kia is pregnant and she gets pregnant again. So, not to mention that Zi is here and she’s pregnant again by the same piece of shit. So, I’m already talking to Mom. I’m actually talking to Kia before. She told me and I was like oh but don’t tell Morn today because I’m talking to her right now. Having a little somewhat, excuse me, somewhat of a religious argument but kind of toned down because I’m trying to have that respect level and Kia, she didn’t tell her yet, but just as were getting done Kia goes, she’s like I don’t if I should tell you this, I’m kind of nervous you know and I laughed so hard. My face was priceless. I was like Kia no! Page 20 �No! You should have waited thirty minutes. No! She flipped out when you had a tattoo. She slammed a door on your face when she found out you were pregnant with Zi. I just told her I’m not a Christian anymore in the nicest way. Now you’re about to tell her you’re pregnant again. I left the house. I was scared. I left. Kia told Mom. Silence. Dead silence. What’d I do? Get my bag, headphones, going for a walk. I’m not coming back into the house for another three hours. She did not say anything for the entire night. I was like holy shit, but that’s kind of the thing. That’s the biggest bone that I have with religion. Religion is of course can be a very good thing, I’m not dogging it, but it has that fear factor. If you do not follow this doctrine then, as I told my mom several times, Mom you know if a Christian says that an Islamic person is going to hell or a Muslim person is going to hell because he does not believe that Jesus is his savior. That means that an entire population is going to hell. Also Judaism and also people who believe in... .what were the other ones. Fuck I forgot their names. You know the one’s from Eastern China. Buddhism Yeah Buddhism. Stuff like that. So I was like they were all going to hell just because they don’t believe in a certain doctrine.That’s pretty fucked up. You know I had a heart to heart talk with her and I was like dude I’m not going to hell. I’m doing research. Mom sorry to say but I know a lot more than you do about the own Bible. So don’t tell me that type of stuff with still having that respect level, but it was very frustrating. Mom Ijust wanna tell you all this stuff that I learned, but it contradicts with everything that we grew up on especially Africans because mind you that slave masters said hey did you want to believe in this? No they forced Christianity down their throats. Broke them. Told them that they were gonna accept the white Jesus for you know Michael Angelo’s picture of Jesus you know for a kind of psychological domination type of thing. Having blacks think that if their God is white then that means automatically white people are closer to God then they are. That type of thing. I mean hey look it up thats what they did. I’m not saying that one race is better than they other. I believe in unity I just love being black you know. (Laughter). Ask all my brothers. It’s ironic. I love being black. I love my brothers and sisters. I’ve never dated a black chick. I’ve only dated white chicks. I love red heads. I love white chicks. What can I say, but that does not make me any less black since I know my history you know? Some type of people will attach that to you also. I’m a very unorthodox type of person. The more I talk, the more I’m like damn I’m fucking weird. That’s what’s up because I’m not trying to be normal. (Laughter). Alright, one last question and we’ll get you out of here. We did a project on what causes prejudice and we had a whole presentation. In your opinion, what do you think causes prejudice? Oh man. Ignorance. Ignorance is not labeled or is not limited to race, gender, color, nothing. It is pure. If you do not know your history, or if you do not know your shit then you’re gonna be ignorant and you’re just gonna accept anything you know. If you don’t have a strong foundation or a set of beliefs than you’re gonna easily be like oh this makes and oh this makes sense too. I’ll follow that. A lot of people, a lot misconceptions on what ignorance is and like I said I’ve done a lot of research. Part of my name on Facebook is Enjur and a lot of people think the word nigger or negro comes from the word ignorant. That’s completely untrue because in ancient Kemit because, you gotta remember there were gods and goddesses, you know. Technically it was not the monotheistic you know religion. Their kings, remember even Egypt. Egypt was Greek and that shows you that’s not even the real name of that body of area. The name was Kemit and the names that the pharaohs, which is Greek for like upper house or something like that. The name for the pharaohs was Enjur and they didn’t have vowels and Enjur or negro is what they Page 21 �called gods and goddesses. So nigger and negro has a connection in that word. When they got invaded by the Greeks and the Romans they twisted and manipulated that word to attach a negative vibe to that word so when they’re calling nigger, negro like slave masters are like get out of here nigger and all that shit, they’re attaching a negative you know situation or vibe on that. So, they’re gonna t away from that name. That’s why you don’t hear people go what’s up nigger? It may make people feel uncomfortable but that word all it is Enjur with a few other letters in that you know. If I went around calling other black people what’s up my Enjur they’d be like what the fuck are you saying. That’s the core word for negro and nigger and where it came from, but most people don’t know that. They just think think it means ignorance so everybody is just you know yeah blacks are saying stop saying that word. It’s got such a bad history to it. It means ignorant. It’s so negative. Then you have dumb niggers who are using it like what up my nigger, what up making a fool out of themselves. Then you actually have the intelligent ones who know, which are a very selective few, that knows the meaning of the word and they use it proudly. You know? I even have white friends that say nigga and nigger. You know, it doesn’t bother me because I know who I am. I have a pretty solid identity of myself so you know it doesn’t bother me. If someone was to say that to me in eight grade, man, I would have whooped their ass so bad. I’m not saying it’s acceptable because today especially with society now if a white person says nigger, they’re about to get their ass whooped. But that’s just because of the black community doesn’t have identification of themselves. They don’t know that. They don’t know the history of the word so they accept it as something negative so they flip out. Does anyone else have any other questions? I guess just one thing, don’t have to get too much into it. Overall, how was your experience in the conservative West Michigan like communities been with you being an Atheist? Like have people called you out on it much or has it been pretty normal? Nahh. I usually keep it to myself. i usually keep my beliefs to myself. If someone asks me then yo I’ll tell them. I’ll tell them with a smile. I love life now. I don’t hate life. So, I’ll gladly tell anyone what I believe in because I believe in unity. Were all one. Were all one consciousness. I don’t believe in religion and sadly that’s what religion does. Divide and conquer. The best technique every because even with the whole black and white thing, you’re white you’re black. So what! Cool. I drive a blue car. Are you gonna call that out to homey. (Laughter). Like, people get so attached to names and labels and stuff like that. They have to hold themselves up to a higher degree. Like yo I’m just here living, what’s up. That type of thing. That’s kind of what I believe in just like yo. I live in the now. I don’t do that prejudice shit no more. I’m glad that I’ve matured. It was a long road. Long road. through trial and error. That’s one thing I’m most interested to see is how it’s gonna be in Texas. Texas is a little different than Michigan. Actually, the job that I’m at right now my boss has traveled all across the world and he told me that Michigan is the most racist place he’s ever been to. That blew my mind. He’s been to Mississippi, Florida, he’s been to China, Australia. Africa. You know, he said that out of all the places he’s been to Michigan is the most racist place he’s ever been to. Wow! I do not know what to expect in Texas. Thank you for your time Terrence for this interview. Thank you, it’s always a pleasure. Page 22 �END OF INTERVIEW Page 23 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fc37d171c51cabff623d9246613b1b4a.mp3 3f335172564596d90f0ad44c593a1863 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Harris_Terrence Title A name given to the resource Terrence Harris audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Harris, Terrence Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Bauer, David Pete, Eric Homan, Stephanie VanDraggt, Victoria Description An account of the resource Terrence is African American and Atheist. He discusses growing up in a neighborhood that is predominately White, Christian. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History African Americans--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-23 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9c18d86d2bd5891275f9c75faaebd1a4.pdf 2acecd5c33f2042ab84eff056e33f61f PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Susan Peeler Interviewers: Lauren Peeler Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 11/27/2011 Biography and Description Susan Peeler discusses her experiences growing up and how they have affected the way she prejudges people. Transcript LAUREN: My name is Lauren Peeler and I am here today Sunday November 27, 2011 at 11am with Mrs. Susan Peeler inside her home in Canton, Ml. We are here to discuss her upbringings in Chicago Illinois. So you grew up in Chicago? SUSAN: Yes I grew up in the Northern suburbs of Chicago. LAUREN: What was your family like? SUSAN: Well I had 3 brothers one sister for me and my older brothers it was a little bit harder growing up because I don’t know, my mom was real hard on us and when my younger sister and brother came along it was a piece of cake it was like she loved them and didn’t love us ya know. LAUREN: Why did you feel that? SUSAN: Because my mom always told me I was fat, I was ugly I got to put make up on to hide my skin, I had to do this I had to do that why don’t I smile I mean she was always putting me down. LAUREN: Your dad the same way? SUSAN: No, dad was a lot more loving but my mother would never do the stuff she was always doing when my dad was home or if he was in ear shot she wouldn’t have bothered. She just did it behind his back type thing. LAUREN: Did your siblings see this? SUSAN: Yeah no what I never thought anybody saw anything going on until a cuple of years ago when my second oldest brother told me he always saw what was going on but felt helpless and didn’t do anything about it and he felt bad about that. Page 1 �LAUREN: Did you go to school all throughout? SUSAN: Oh God I went to so many catholic colleges because those are the ones my mother picked out she lets see I went to harper junior college which is kind of like schoolcraft. And then I went to I think that’s when I went away to debuuuke iowa the college there in debuuuke and then Iwent to malakar college in lamet which is another catholic college then I finally graduated from mundalein which was another catholic college and basically those are schools that my mother picked and just to avoid any ya know aggravation and stuff I went along with it, ya know just to keep peace. LAUREN: Are you still pretty Catholic? SUSAN: Yeah I still believe in god and everything but I don’t go to church like I know I probably should. But I don’t think God ya know is going to be mad at you for not going to church. LAUREN: Do you think you being so Catholic growing up made you not go now? SUSAN: No I think its just that I always went when I was growing up even oh I don’t know I was just in the habit of going every Sunday and when I got married I kind of started doing it and it was just like I got lazy and just didn’t feel like getting dressed and going to church. LAUREN: So about violence against women physically and sexually? SUSAN: Oh yeah. LAUREN: How is this? SUSAN: When I was a senior in high school I was 18 years old I was working as a life guard at a swimming pool during the summer and in order to teach swimming lessons my mother you had to take this wsi class which was water safety instruction and it was something my mother was basically telling me I had to do. So im like fine Ill go and do it. And when it came time for the test I kind of panicked and I freaked out and I left. And so when I left it was this was actually at Northwestern in Evanston, Illinois and some guy stopped me on the sidewalk and put a knife to my neck so yeah I know. LAUREN: What else happened, anything else? SUSAN: He put me in his car and drove for a while and I kept thinking all I kept thinking was that I was going to end up in lake Michigan dead and ended up in an alley and he made me get in the back seat where he raped me. And then it was finally all over again all over so he drove me back to my car and I got into my car and im just kind of starting to freak out. Then he got back in my car and wanted to do it again so he did it to me twice. And I didn’t know well, obviously I knew I was a virgin but I didn’t know ya know. After I got home I was speeding down the street, my mother was standing there getting ready to yell and scream at me for speeding down the street and I told her what happened and I mean I knew I was a virgin but I didn’t know because I started bleeding and I didn’t know that when you’re a virgin and it happens the first time that’s what it was and I was freaking out about that and my mom went and blew it off. LAUREN: She blew it off? Page 2 �SUSAN: Yeah she was just like I said I don’t know what this is I said what’s going on and she didn’t answer me she didn’t say anything. LAUREN: How did that make you feel? SUSAN: Crap. Oh yeah big time. LAUREN: What happened afterward? SUSAN: Well mom and dad took me to the emergency room and my mom stayed in there with me while my dad was in the waiting room and I really wanted somebody to like hold me because I was so frightened and so scared and all my mother could talk about was how my bad my dad felt because he was pacing back and forth in the waiting room. And she basically blamed the whole thing on me, said it was my fault. LAUREN: Did he ever get caught? SUSAN: Oh yeah he got caught because while I was in the car I don’t know where I had heard it but I kept trying to pay attention to details in the car and everything else and he had a box of Kleenex and a statue of like the Blessed Virgin Mary or something in the front and the seats were covered with plastic and I knew I don’t know I just kept remembering all these little details and stuff. And, the only way he let me go was I told him I would meet him next week, cuz I had to go next week and then that’s why he let me go. And, the next day we went to the police department what I think actually the police came to our house because when I had gone to the emergency room in order for me not to get pregnant they gave me these pills which made me sick to my stomach so I couldn’t leave the house so the sketch artist and police came to our house and I told them everything that I could remember and they I had a sketch artist do a picture of him and I think, you want me to just keep...? Then I think it was, ohl The police then wanted to use me as a decoy ya know and he said that police would be scattered out all over the place. And I was really scared to do that and when the time came the police called and I kind of started freaking out and I gave the phone to my mother and what had happened was that they thought they caught the guy and they wanted me to come in for a police line up. So we had one of my dad’s cousin’s husband’s was a policeman and he met us at the Evanston police station and I told him I said what if I can’t ya know point him out and he said just kind of take your time and blah blah blah well I saw him the minute I walked in. ya know and they wanted to know if I wanted him to say something and I said have him say, “I want to see you again.” And that was it. The guy’s ass was nailed. Then after all that we went to court and it ted out there was about 5 or 6 other women there that he had done this to. One women was in the hospital for about two weeks because she was stabbed quite a few times. And he had this, his girlfriend was there and ya know she gives him a kiss and it was like all five of us are sitting there ready to throw-up just went blehh ya know. But they found him guilty and sentenced him to 25 years in prison in Joliet. LAUREN: Oh wow. SUSAN: And it was basically because all of the details that I was remembering. LAUREN: So you were the main reason he got caught? Page 3 �SUSAN: I think so. Because I had make of the car, the color of the car, plastic on the car, stuff that was in the window I mean I was memorizing all that and I think that had a lot to do with it. And it ted out that it was his girlfriend’s car too. LAUREN: His girlfriend was... SUSAN: ...She was there supporting him. LAUREN: Did she know what he was doing? She was okay with it? SUSAN: what I don’t know, I just think it was a thing of a woman standing behind her man. But I mean when there is five or six people there come on give me a break ya know? LAUREN: Did it make you feel better that you helped all these other women? SUSAN: It did. It made me feel a lot better knowing he was off the streets and couldn’t find me. Because I was always paranoid that he was going to find out where I was and kill me. LAUREN: Did he ever get out? SUSAN: He finally got out they kept sending, we had moved from this was in Glenview we had moved my parents moved to northbrook of course I got married and moved here and the people who lived in the house started getting these letters that were addressed to me from the circuit court or whatever court it was so they looked up all the kolbas in the phonebook and got a hold of my step grandmother who called me and said is it okay? And I said yeah most definitely. So they forwarded the mail to me and it was letters that he was coming up for parole and do I want him out. And im like, hell no, ya know. And so he that went about 4 or five years and then finally I didn’t get a phone call or anything I actually I didn’t get anything in the mail no phone calls, no nothing and I found out that he got released. And he was, so I called the prison, the courts or whoever it was and I said, “why wasn’t I told?” “Oh I don’t blah blah” they were kind of giving you the run around story. And I said where did he get parolled to and she said to Louisiana but we cant give you his address. I said what the hell do I want his address for? I mean for the longest time in maybe sometimes still I think about that he will find out what my new name is even though ive had it for almost 30 years, that he is going to find me and kill me or something. LAUREN: So you are still scared? SUSAN: Oh yeah, oh yeah. I was kind of ya know im always looking behind my back, I don’t like people walking behind me. Because it freaks me out. LAUREN: Is it because you think it’s him, or are you afraid of everyone? SUSAN: No I just im just afraid somebody’s going to come up behind me again and do what happened. do to me what happened before. And I don’t really I like to trust people but don’t really trust people very well anymore. im suspicious, I wont go out in the dark I really start panicking if I ya know especially with my oldest daughter who was forcing me to walk in the streets of Chicago after dark and it was upsetting me so much that I was crying but ya know what are you doing to do? Page 4 �LAUREN: She’s not very helpful with that? SUSAN: No. ya know basically I think she was I know she feels bad that it happened but she was kind of like on the wavelength that of my mom and dad and was like ya know get over it. LAUREN: How has your husband helped at all? SUSAN: I don’t know if he has really helped, he’s there if I need a shoulder to cry on or something like that but ive never had anybody that I never had anybody put their arm around me and tell me everything is going to be okay. Since it happened, not nobody. LAUREN: How did he deal with it when he found out? SUSAN: Well I actually was going with a guy when I was in high school and I told him what happened and then he dumped me. Yeah. he dumped me, didn’t want to go out with me anymore and I had told my now husband about it and he was very sympathetic which was very ya know, which was good. But you always want that arm around your shoulder saying things will be okay. LAUREN: Do you feel like men mostly you cannot trust? Are you afraid of them at all? SUSAN: I have to tell you I do look at people and I just by looking at them I feel like I can judge whether I can trust them or not. I unfortunately don’t trust black men very well because it was a black guy that raped me and I ya know I know I shouldn’t be feeling that way but, black guys scare the crap out of me. just because of what happened, and I know I shouldn’t be like that anymore but yeah there is at the same rate there are some white guys that scare the crap out of me that I will ya know if I see somebody ill go out of my way with walking across the Street or ya know going in a totally different direction or something like that so. LAUREN: Did you ever see a counselor or psychologist about this? SUSAN: Nope. Never did. LAUREN: Never thought about it? SUSAN: I always thought about it but my mother always told me I didn’t need it. there was once I think when I started getting the letters that he was coming up for parole I was good friends with one of my friends here in the neighborhood and she suggested this First Step. And I went there once and never went back. LAUREN: Why? SUSAN: I don’t know. LAUREN: You just didn’t like it? SUSAN: I don’t know I just I don’t know why I never went back. I thought it was something I could handle myself which is probably stupid ya know because I don’t think anybody can handle something like that on their own but. Page 5 �LAUREN: Did anyone else help you handle it? SUSAN: No. LAUREN: So you just did it all by yourself? SUSAN: I had to do it all by myself because I didn’t get any support from my mother at all. LAUREN: You said you moved to Michigan after? SUSAN: Yeah we moved to Michigan that made me feel safe. Knowing that I was out of state and far away but ya know every once in while ill be walking down the street or driving by in the car and ill see somebody that kind of looks like him and it kind of freaks me out a little bit but I try not to think about it. LAUREN: You still remember what he looks like? SUSAN: Not to the extent that I did before. all I know is that he was a short little guy and it was all I can remember now. LAUREN: Has this made you change anything you do in your life? SUSAN: I don’t like going out in the dark. ive gotten to the point that now I have pepper spray so that if I go anywhere in the dark and stuff like that. Like when I go to Chicago now or when I went to New York over the summer I brought it with me and it made me feel safe. Because I knew I cold spray it at anybody at anytime but yeah I don’t, and I get really nervous when im somewhere alone and not a whole lot of people are around I get really nervous about that but.. LAUREN: Have any other events in your life affected what happened to you positively or negatively, made you rethink about it? SUSAN: Well when I was. This is going to be hard, all I wanted was I guess someone to love me. And I think that’s why I guess that’s why I did what I did when I was growing up I had too many guys I guess. There was about four different guys that I guess slept with as they say. Because all I wanted was someone to love me and I didn’t think anybody did. LAUREN: Do you feel loved now? SUSAN: Yeah. From you especially, from dad for the most part but yeah sorta kinda. LAUREN: So afterwards you kind of looked to men for love by having sex with them? SUSAN: Yeah. LAUREN: How does that make you feel, do you regret it at all? SUSAN: Oh god yeah. Because right now I feel like I was like a tramp as they say. LAUREN: I don’t think so. Page 6 �SUSAN: Its not the kind of person, I mean I would never even think of doing that now but I think it was just I was too eager for someone to really like me or love me or something. I was desperate because I wasn’t getting it at home. LAUREN: I think a lot of girls are in your position and what would you want to tell somebody that is going through that? SUSAN: first of all to not put themselves down. Realize that it wasn’t their fault and definitely get help from somewhere, don’t think ya know its going to go away or think that you can ignore it and things will be hunky dory. you need help. LAUREN: Do you ever think about getting help now? SUSAN: Yeah once in a while I do. cuz this happened in 1973 almost forty years ago. and if I try not to think about it im pretty much okay but yeah there’s times when im thinking maybe ill go back even though it’s been almost forty years. And I don’t know I haven’t really decided. LAUREN: Yeah, you have to do it at your own pace. SUSAN: At forty years hahaha that’s a slow pace. LAUREN: So what has helped you deal with it? Has anything helped you deal with it? SUSAN: Nothing really just trying not to think about it. has helped. But I think it was one of those things that even talking about it right now it’s hard but maybe getting it all out in the open and talking about it or even writing it down is a big help, it helps a lot. LAUREN: So do you keep a joal or anything? SUSAN: No that’s something that im asking my kids for Christmas this year is joals because I started writing in a notebook at school when I find myself getting really tense about something I just a lot of it will be bIah blah blah blah, but it makes me feel a lot better. LAUREN: Do you ever re-read it later? SUSAN: Yeah LAUREN: It makes you feel better? SUSAN: Yeah, a lot better. LAUREN: Do you have any heroes that you look up to? Maybe somebody on tv that maybe you wish could have been around? SUSAN: Well actually believe it or not, my daughter got me hooked on watching Law and Order: SVU and I made the comment that I would love an Olivia on my side haha because she is so her character is so kind and so compassionate and I would have given my I teeth for somebody like her when I was attacked. I even am almost half thinking of writing her a letter hahah ya know. As a character but yeah I kind of what even though she is a tv character I kind of look up to her. Page 7 �LAUREN: She does in her regular life she has groups for women. SUSAN: Oh does she really? LLAUREN: Mmhm she is very involved in it and.., SUSAN: Maybe it might be worth while writing a letter she may never get it but LAUREN: I think she would SUSAN: Its worth a try. LAUREN: How did your perception of what happened to you change as you got older, if it changed at all? SUSAN: Oh boy, I don’t know if it has really changed anything because my mother my whole life always made me feel worthless and having that happen to me and she blamed me for it doesn’t make me feel better it still makes me feel worthless, so that’s why a lot of times I don’t think about it. LAUREN: You think not thinking about is unhealthy or not? SUSAN: It what it probably could be unhealthy because you keep all those feelings pent up inside and I think in order for somebody to get over something like that you need to let it out, speak to somebody, ya know even if you go ya know to like the First Step once or twice ya know just so you can hang out with other people that went through what you went through. LAUREN: Your let-out is writing though? SUSAN: Yeah, I mean it may not make a lot of sense but you get there and kind of ramble on and stuff and I don’t know it just makes you feel a lot better. LAUREN: So you have two children? SUSAN: Mmhm LAUREN: How did this affect the way you treated them as they grew up? SUSAN: as they started getting older I always wanted them to call when they got to where they were going basically just keep an eye out ya know just kind of keep looking all around, don’t go anywhere by yourself because I don’t, I just worried about the same thing happening to them. I don’t, I didn’t want them to ya know be caught somewhere alone they needed a ride, call. just, and I know I was kind of I don’t know not overbearing but probably too much when I kept saying well call me when you there, call me when you get here let me know where you’re at and stuff like that. And that was because I just was so paranoid about something happening to them. LAUREN: Were they receptive of that at all? SUSAN: Well I don’t think they know why I was acting like that. because I had never really talked about this before and I don’t even remember when I told them what had happened but crap I just forgot what Page 8 �I was saying. Oh they probably just thought I was I don’t know being like a nosey mom and stuff like that how parents can be and stuff and actually it was just my, me being paranoid. I think. LAUREN: You wouldn’t say that your eagerness to know where they are was a good thing at all? SUSAN: I do but I don’t think at the time they might not thought it was a its like its none of your business where im going or what im doing and stuff like that which is I understand they are entitled to there own life and to do what they want to do but I just always wanted to know where they were and what they were doing because I just kind of wanted to keep a track and if like when my youngest daughter, you, would go into Detroit, it would it scared the crap out of me. I was I was petrified. And that’s why I kept having you call me or I kept calling you and stuff and that’s why. LAUREN: I think that’s why I stopped telling you where I would go because I didn’t want you to worry. SUSAN: Yeah. LAUREN: They are both out of the house now, do you still worry about them? SUSAN: Oh yeah. My oldest daughter lives in Chicago I worry about her a lot but one thing she’s got going for her she did take like kung fu or something when she was in college I don’t know that jiu jit su stuff and she’s got a a scream that would be in the scariest horror movie. And my youngest one I probably worry about a little bit more but I think she is kind of cautious and aware of her surroundings and I don’t think she would put herself in a dangerous situation. LAUREN: Have you ever been treated violently by another man? SUSAN: Nope. LAUREN: Not at all? SUSAN: Well my dad hit me once because I back mouthed my mother or something like that but.. LAUREN: Have you faced any other discrimination with what happened to you? SUSAN: Its, oh against me? LAUREN: Or maybe other people that you have seen? SUSAN: what lye only talked told a couple people like when I told said that I was in high school and I told my boyfriend at the time what had happened and he dumped me and I once in a while I tell somebody I mean its not like common knowledge or anything but I notice how people kind of back away. LAUREN: Because they are uncomfortable? SUSAN: Yeah I think that’s exactly what it is. LAUREN: So you think the general public doesn’t know how to address this problem? SUSAN: I don’t think they know how cuz it didn’t happen to them I don’t think they know I think what to say. And how to say it. I don’t know I just I think that they they just need to be sympathetic I mean . Page 9 �LAUREN: That’s what you wish people would know? SUSAN: Oh yeah. Yeah. LAUREN: Not treat you like you have a disease or something SUSAN: Oh yeah. LAUREN: Do anyone else that this happened to? SUSAN: (shakes head) LAUREN: Must be hard because you don’t have anyone to sympathize with you. SUSAN: Yeah I have known of nobody that it’s ever happened to. LAUREN: There are more people though, don’t think that you are alone. SUSAN: Oh yeah I know there’s a ton, but I don’t know anybody personally You can go ahead and ask that question. LAUREN: Which one? SUSAN: The one about my sex life, hahaha. LAUREN: How has it affected your sexual life? SUSAN: I, you’re going to think this is really weird because im your mother. I don’t really enjoy it like I should. LAUREN: Yeah. SUSAN: because of course my first time ya know I was raped and it’s hard I mean its really really hard for me but l’ve...l do what I can to make my husband happy, I try hard. And I think he knows that too. Sometimes it’s very very difficult for me but for the ya know I do what lcan. Funny thing to be talking to your daughter about haha LAUREN: Oh its fine. Sometimes do you think of it? SUSAN: not during anymore. I mean I used to a long time ago but not anymore. LAUREN: Do you think the first time you did it after it happened, was it really hard for you? SUSAN: Yeah. LAUREN: Was the guy sympathetic at all? SUSAN: Oh I didn’t tell him. LAUREN: Do you think these people you were with kind of sensed that there was something? Page 10 �SUSAN: What they might have but I didn’t I didn’t come out and tell anybody. Because I thought that for sure if I told somebody they would run in the other direction. LAUREN: Because of that one guy did? SUSAN: Yeah. And it did take me a while to tell my now husband what happened because I loved him a lot and I was afraid he was going to leave me too. LAUREN: Did you tell him after you were married? SUSAN: No I told him before. LAUREN: How long after you were dating? SUSAN: what I think it was actually a couple of months maybe LAUREN: Did you tell him before you two became intimate? SUSAN: No. LAUREN: It was afterward? SUSAN: Yeah. LAUREN: So the police, they used you as a decoy to catch him? SUSAN: Yeah they wanted to use me as a decoy the following week because I told the guy I was going to come back a in a week and that’s why he let me go, because I promised to meet him. and I told the police that and they wanted to use me as a decoy and im like, “no” and they said well we would have policeman all around everywhere and I Was kind of scared about doing that but when they called me to be a decoy they said that they had captured him. LAUREN: So you didn’t have to be a decoy? SUSAN:No I didn’t have to be a decoy after all. So I was like really relieved. LAUREN: Do you think you would change what the police did? SUSAN: No, because actually the police were pretty good about it but they I Think were a lot more I don’t know I had first picked out the picture that wasn’t the guy. Ya know because I was starting to get flustered and he goes, “are you sure this is him?” and I said, “I don’t know I think so” and he said, “well this guy is six feet tall” so I guess that’s not him but no I wouldn’t change anything except I would have gotten some help a lot earlier. Because maybe I wouldn’t have done half of what I did. Well then I think that’s it’s a dumb excuse but I think that could have been why I started drinking a lot to. LAUREN: You started drinking? SUSAN: Yeah, a lot. LAUREN: When, after it happened? Page 11 �SUSAN: Yeah. Well not really so much after it happened it was I think it was about the time that I got the letter saying that he was being released. I started drinking allot and because it made the pain feel better. But it was really kind of stupid because I was trying to feel better about it but what I was actually doing was putting myself deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper into a hole that didn’t think I was going to be able to get out of. LAUREN: How did you get out of it? SUSAN: What I know my family really wanted me to quit really bad and I knew I would once I was ready but it was just one day like with smoking, one day I woke up and irn just like, “okay im done.” And I honestly didn’t think I would be able to because I was oh crap drinking at least a twelve pack a day. LAUREN: How did your family deal with that? SUSAN: They they weren’t very happy with me ya know and I knew it was upsetting them and it was I was getting scared because I didn’t know because I have a very addictive personality when I start doing something ljust keep doing it and I have a hard time stopping but I basically I wanted my family to be proud of me not ashamed of me and I think that was one big reason why I quit and on top of all that I lost 60 pounds too hahaha so that helps. but yeah it was a long haul but I think finally at my ripe old age im kind of coming to terms with stuff. LAUREN: Do you think your where you want to be? What else do you want to do? SUSAN: actually this is the happiest I’ve ever been in a really long time im trying to learn not to let things bother me anymore I do get really anxious especially just over thanksgiving weekend was a whole lot of fun. I mean I did have a good time seeing my brother and his family and stuff but my oldest daughter is not very not really tolerant of other people. And I was getting really tense with that. When I’m at home if im starting to feel really sad or im getting tense ill just start doing something that makes me happy. And my job I love it. I work with special needs kids and they’re terrific ya know. And I keep thinking boy I’ve got problems ya know and look at them they’re as happy as can be and I just don’t I think if my mother was alive today I would probably tell her to go fly a kite, or take a long walk off a short pier. because she always had me tied up in knots but im I life is too short to let things bug you and eat away at you it’s not worth it and that’s why I feel this asshole I hoping he’s dead or he drowned in hurricane Katrina because he was done there when hurricane Katrina hit so ive got my fingers crossed that he got drowned and floated away. But I figured life is too short he took a lot from me but I refuse for him to have anymore. I just won’t do it anymore. LAUREN: Do his name? SUSAN: Yep. LAUREN: Do you ever think about looking him up and seeing if he died? SUSAN: No I never thought about that, but that would that might be kind of nice it would make me feel a lot better knowing he was dead. LAUREN: How old was he when it happened? Page 12 �SUSAN: Im not really sure because im not really good at guessing ages but I Want to say he might have been in his 30’s. LAUREN: So he would be pretty old now. SUSAN: Yeah so hopefully he’s older and he’s farting dust now or something. I don’t know. But yeah ya know I don’t wish ill will on anybody but I hope he died in hurricane Katrina, haha. LAUREN: I think that’s okay. So you started drinking kind of to numb the pain so you wouldn’t think about it and it drove you in further.. SUSAN: It was driving me farther apart from my family and the way I was doing that I lost count how many years, quite a few years and it my husband kept telling me its only going to depress you moreand im like no im doing fine blah blah blah and yeah I did realize it wasn’t doing anything to help me at all and im just happy I quit. LAUREN: So you only realized you had a problem after your family said something? SUSAN: I knew I had a problem but I always thought I can quit whenever I feel like it but with the addictive personality I had I was so used to coming home from work and start drinking at like 3 o’clock and it was just a habit I got into. And finally after umpteen years I had to form a different kind of habit get used to doing something else instead of that every time I came home so know everytime Icome home I sit down with my diet coke and my popcorn and my needlepoint ha for about an hour. LAUREN: Did you ever t to any other drugs or? SUSAN: No I did start smoking. at a few days after this happened because he had offered me a cigarette and I said no I don’t smoke and then to be cool, calm, and collected I said oh gee can I borrow a cigarette and I think that’s when I started smoking. and I did that up til I was pregnant with my oldest child I was a couple months pregnant and I realized smoking was not going to do her any good and I just woke up one day and didn’t want it anymore. LAUREN: Do you think your family is grateful for that? SUSAN: Oh yeah I think so. Very much so. LAUREBN: Besides being worried about when your kids when out, how did this affect the way you were a mother and a wife? SUSAN: There’s so much more I wish I would have done, butl don’t think the rape itself had anything to do with it. Shoulda coulda woulda. I mean I always wished I don’t know there’s I just wish I would have been a different kind of morn. giving them more responsibility of doing things around the house and stuff like that and I never really pushed it because I didn’t want them to get angry with me and stuff so I just kind of kept it and did it myself. LAUREN: Why are you afraid of people getting angry with you? Page 13 �SUSAN: Oh just because my mother always yelled at me and stuff and I just I get really tense and upset if people’s voices start getting raised because it kind of goes back to when my mother and I just cant deal with the yelling and stuff like that. LAUREN: It seems like a lot of your problems stem from your mom and how she treated you. SUSAN: Yeah LAUREN: Is she still alive? SUSAN: No she died in may of 2001 from Alzheimer’s. And it sounds weird but she finally became the mother that I always wanted she was more I was talking oh we, I was down in Florida because my mother was sick and somebody had rented a video and my husband called me up from down in Florida and I go its not that big a deal, just ret it. But he doesn’t like things being late. And I said it wasn’t that big of a deal so I hung up and I was kind of crying and my mother actually came over to me and put her arm around me and I think that was the first time she ever did that and I don’t ever remember her telling me that she loved me. So that’s why I make a point every time I see my kids or talk to them on a phone I always tell them I love em. LAUREN: They love you too. SUSAN: Thankyou. LAUREN: You’re welcome. How did you feel when she passed? SUSAN: I was sad. But I mean I loved her because she was my mother but as a person I didn’t like her at all. so in a way it was kind of like a relief. Because even after I got married she kept sending me letters, like, “why can’t you smile more like your sister, why can’t you do this, why can’t you do that.” And when you have somebody nit picking at you like that 24/7 its like leave me the heck alone. LAUREN: Did she compare you with your sister? SUSAN: All the time. LAUREN: Did it make you kind of... hate her a little bit? Your sister SUSAN: My sister? Yeah. Because I know she and my brother were always my mom and dad’s favorite. LAUREN: How that effected your relationship with your brother? SUSAN: I’m not very close to them. I’d like to be closer. When I’m around them I feel like I have to watch what I’m saying. And I’m real careful how I work things. LAUREN: Are you close with your older brothers? SUSAN: My 2 older brothers are probably a little bit closer than my younger. I have this bad habit, I don’t keep in touch with anybody as good as I know I should. because we all live far away from each other, but I’m trying to make up for that. Let’s see.., one summer we went to go visit my brother in California and Page 14 �then 2 years after that I went to go visit him again, and then last year I went to visit my brother in Florida, because he lives alone, he divorced, and I just kind of wondered how he was doing. LAUREN: Did any your siblings ever come for you? SUSAN: No, not at all. LAUREN: Do you guys ever talked about it? SUSAN: No... I called my dad one day, and... I think it was when I first started to get the letters coming off for parole and... my dad said “ I thought you were over that by now”. And I said dad, how can be over something like that. So, my dad were a lot more caring and understanding than my mother, I didn’t even get what I needed from him. LAUREN: What would you tell him, if you could tell him anything right know? Or what do you wish you said? SUSAN: What, I wish I would have told my mother, “Why can’t you be a mother to me?”. Because when we had gone to the police station, and we were walking at the parking lot, I started crying, and my mother grabbed me and said “What the hell are you crying for?”. I mean, she was never sympathetic towards me when this happened, because she pointed that it was all my fault, so I knew I wasn’t get ever anything from her. LAUREN: Was she supportive during the trial? SUSAN: No, she never came, it was always my dad. My mum was kind of like pretended it never happened. LAUREN: But your dad was more helpful? SUSAN: Yeah, because he went to the courts with me, so he was pretty good. LAUREN: Was it hard going to the court, and seeing him again? SUSAN: Yeah, it was. It was really really hard, but I felt better knowing there was 5 or 6 other women there, who went through something similar, so I knew therewas other people there, so it maybe felt me a little bit better. LAUREN: Did you ever speak with them about it? SUSAN: Yeah, we were kind of sitting... I don’t remember what it was we talked about, I just remember we were sitting near each other in the courtroom, and that guy was up in front and his fiancée was behind him, and they stood up as the court session was over, and they kissed each other, and we all thought we’re gonna throw up and it’s disgusting. LAUREN: That was the jury who found him guilty? SUSAN: No, I think it was just the judge, it wasn’t the jury. LAUREN: So it was a quick trial? Page 15 �SUSAN: Yeah, pretty quick. We only had to go twice to court. LAUREN: If this happened to one of your children, how would you treat them differently than your mother treated you? SUSAN: Definetely not the way my mother did it. I would hug them and hold them, tell them I love them, let them know everything is gonna be okay, and I would be there with her every step on the way. I would never want one of my kids go through what I went through with my mom. I would never allow that. I’m just glad I didn’t end up like my mother . Because she said she never liked kids. LAUREN: Really? SUSAN: Yeah. That was my mother. And I found out from my aunt, my dad’s sister that... she said that, it was kind of funny... my grandfather said my step grandmother that don’t ever leave me alone with them... asshole. LAUREN: So did your dad’s family like your mom at all? SUSAN: Well, my dad’s mother was still alive.., and no, apparently they didn’t like each other. I think my gradpa was.., he didn’t really said he disliked her or\ anything like that. He put up her basically, that’s what he did, because she married his son. But I’ve got to visit my aunt this weekend and hoping to find out a lot of juicy stuff that was going on. But my aunt Carol did make a comment that... I was talking to her about this just about a week ago, and she said that she was very upset with her brother, who’s my dad at the way he was handling that, and the way I was treated, and she was really pissed off. LAUREN: It makes you feel better? SUSAN: Yeah. It would be nice if Carol was my mom. That’s the way my mother was. LAUREN: That’s how she has always been? SUSAN: Yeah. But I mean, she was 16 years old, she could go ahead whenever she wanted, but I... I’m hoping my kids don’t drink and smoke... I mean the occasional drinking is not a big deal but.. If I find out my kids are drinking, just promise me you never ever get behind the wheel. Because guys, you can make up you own mind and make your own decisions, and all I can do is to give you my input, from experience. LAUREN: Do you talked to them about it? SUSAN: No, because I never... I don’t know why I never have... Because I have a hard time of starting things that I want to talkedto them about. I don’t know how to bring it up and talk, because I don’t... My biggest fear is hurting their feelings, because my mother always hurt my feelings in my life, and made me sad. I was always sad with her 24/7, and I didn’t want to make that mistake to my kids. But then I didn’t want to make the mistake of not saying something and having something continue. I’m starting to be hopefully a little more vocal LAUREN: You weren’t very happy how your mother raised you. Do that you did a better job? Page 16 �SUSAN: I hope I did. Because my mother... I could never say the things to my kids that my mother said to me. I mean I tried to be more open to them, I waned them to feel that they could come to me for anything, and I loved it if they came to me for everything, but I realized I can’t do that, because they have their own little spot that’s their business, nobody else’s... something they talk to their friends about before they’re talking me about. LAUREN: So when you became mom, you tried not to do things how your mom did? SUSAN: Yeah. So, that’s why with my oldest daughter, I wish I would have been a little more strict with her, because she’s really kind of self centered, and feels that everything has to be circling around her and she’s got to realize life isn’t like that, and it’s not gonna happen. I mean I wish I was a little more strict with her and done stuff differently with her. And if I had grandchildren one day, they’re gonna be the most spoiled little brats because they would come over, visit grandma, and we would bake cookies and all the stuff that I think a grandma should do, instead of my mother, who basically thought that kids should be seen and not heard. My mother was not a grandma type mother. And the funny thing is we were back in Chicago for thanksgiving, we stopped by the cemetery and I didn’t realize till just now that... it’s a big family thing, my mom’s on one side, my dad’s on the other, and I noticed that I always stay over on the same side, that my dad is on, I don’t go over to the side that my mother is on. I see her name, but I don’t go over there, which is really weird, I never really thought about this till just now. LAUREN: Because you can’t let go the hurt that she gave you? SUSAN: Yeah. LAUREN: So anything else, you want to say? SUSAN: No, I think that pretty much covers it. END OF INTERVIEW Page 17 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0d43514c01365cbb219358a534cc6f39.mp3 ca7350448e5dd2ecd16592fc539b7a6f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Peeler_Susan Title A name given to the resource Susan Peeler audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Peeler, Susan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Peeler, Lauren Description An account of the resource Susan Peeler discusses her experiences growing up and how they have affected the way she prejudges people. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives Discrimination Discrimination against African Americans Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-11-27 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d2e0ba2655ab32c69d8f52f7b5c87f14.pdf 8347a0fbb8196d101c8fdd7b88024087 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Maria Sutherland Interviewers: Kayla Burke, Jennifer Noth and Alex Suriano Supervising Faculty: Danielle Lake Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 10/31/2011 Runtime: 00:43:32 Biography and Description Maria Sutherland is from Cochabamba, Bolivia. She describes her experience as an immigrant to the United States. Transcript Alex: My name is Alex Suriano. Jennifer: And I‟m Jennifer Noth. Alex: And we are here today, at 4 o‟clock P.M. with Maria Sutherland at Grand Valley State University. We are here today to talk about your experiences. Could you please give us some basic information about yourself? Maria: As Alex stated, my name is Maria Sutherland. I‟m from Cochabamba, Bolivia. I was born there in the San Pedro Hospital. Um, my mom is also Bolivian, but her parents are both American. My dad‟s American, I have two other sisters. One was born in the United States and the other one was born in Bolivia. I lived my entire life there, except for my seventh grade year and last year, um, my freshman year of college. A: Alright, so you said you came in seventh grade to western Michigan and just the states in general, what was that like? M: Basically, it was almost like a vacation because we were only here for like a year. It was pretty difficult though because I wasn‟t used to the culture but because I was still younger it was easier to get involved in different things and fit in. A: And then you came back obviously for college as you‟re here right now, how was that? We‟ll just say, describe that experience. Page 1 �M: At the beginning I was really excited because I was like, oh it‟s going to be so much fun, the United States, it‟s a different culture a different place to be. It‟s going to be really fun and then what I didn‟t realize is it‟s a totally different world. Like, the culture is incredibly different, the pace of things, the people, um, it just like overwhelmed me and I didn‟t realize what I was getting myself into. A: Alright, so, how would you describe your own identity? Like, say, we were at an icebreaker or something and someone was like how-like just give us a basic description of yourself, how you identify yourself. M: I feel like for me that‟s really hard but, I would identify myself as Bolivian because even though I don‟t look Bolivian, I was still born there, I grew up with that culture and that‟s basically all I‟ve ever know except for like what my parents have taught me and living in the States for a little bit. A: Okay. Was there a particular moment either growing up or in your adulthood where you felt different or were treated differently? Back in Bolivia, if you ever felt like you were different from the people there, like when you first kind of realized that. M: Um, I did feel different in Bolivia just because of my skin color. Some people would treat me differently because, well white people are always seen as, like they have the money, they have everything. So they either really suck up to you or they would just treat you like you don‟t belong here, what are you doing here? But, as soon as you get you know then, then all that first impression is gone, so. I kinda got used to that, at the beginning it being awkward and then once you get into the flow of things it was fine. A: Alright. So, you are from Bolivia. How did coming here effect your thinking of your identity? Like, did it change it at all or when were you really like, I identify as a Bolivian completely because I don‟t really know the culture here. M: If definitely broadened my overall thinking of my identity because before I just saw myself as I am Bolivian but at the same time I can speak english and both of my parents speak English too, they are America citizens. So, coming here actually made me realize, that there is a part of me Page 2 �that is also, I guess, American. But, in my, I don‟t know, always in my head I always thought more like a Bolivian so coming here made me realize that more so it‟s kind of like this constant battle of like am I Bolivian or am I trying to fit in America, like as an American or as like my own self. I don‟t know. It‟s kind of complicated. A: That makes sense, it is kind of a unique situation to be it. M: Yeah. A: Alright, were there people in your life that encouraged you to think about the treatment of Bolivians or just Latinos in general in society. If so, can you name one, a couple, as many as you want? M: Well I think my parents, first of all, because growing up with Bolivians, I don‟t know, they‟ve always had a special place in my heart. I guess no one has ever really been like “You have to care for these people”, but in a way I guess it was kind of the opposite because of some of the people that I really looked up to that I hung out with, um, well it‟s kind of complicated because in Bolivia there‟s like a lower class and then there‟s a higher class and the people that I really looked up to in the higher class really looked down on the lower class. And through seeing like, the hatred that they had for the lower class, that made me feel like even more passionate about the lower class and like caring about them. So I guess it wasn‟t really a certain person, but just like my like overall perspective on everything. A: Okay. Do you remember family members, friends or people from your community being discriminated against? Either formally, informally. Just kind of like, in society, just people you know who were discriminated against or here people you know who are discriminated against. M: Um, my school was an international school but they strived to have like, 50% Bolivians and 50% international students. And then it changed, like the board changed and when I was in like eighth grade, they were really, extremely racist. They were against everything, like that the Bolivians, I don‟t know, they just didn‟t like Bolivians. It was just obvious and by twelfth grade, every single person in my class that was Bolivian left because of all the discrimination and that Page 3 �like really hurt and like most of the teachers didn‟t like me because I was such close friends with the Bolivians that they even like discriminated against the people that hung out with them. And then even like here some of the people that I talk to, it‟s really crazy, because at least in Bolivia I haven‟t really noticed between Bolivians like, racism. But here I just feel like there‟s so much, racism and discrimination and it‟s brought up so much, I don‟t know, it just shocked me. A: And you talk about racism here, like what group do you feel like is being-do you feel like all groups are being racist against all the other groups or is it like specific groups being racist against like other specific groups? Just kind of go into depth about that. M: I think that there‟s definitely racism between African Americans and white people and Latinos. But, like it‟s also crazy to see, I don‟t know, I feel like. I don‟t know how to explain it. I don‟t know-- because I haven‟t lived here long enough, but I don‟t know if, they‟re not exaggerating like to the extent of that they‟re being discriminated against but I just feel like they have-they feel so much like they feel they‟re being discriminated against so profoundly that it shocks me. Like one of my friends just told me, he‟s a Latino and was just telling me about how sometimes he hates just going to certain clubs because when he walks in he can feel like people just don‟t want him there. And that‟s just like weird for me, and it‟s sad. And sometimes you think like, is it true? Or do you think that he just has that vibe and it‟s not really there. You know what I mean? I don‟t know. A: Mhm, it makes sense. Alright now, do you have any civil rights heros nationally, or locally that like, people in history that have stood up for people and rights issues? Do you understand what I‟m saying? M: Yeah. Well, I don‟t know. I really like Jacque Wara. He, I don‟t know if you know who he is but he stood up-well he basically helped, um, Bolivia gain it‟s independence and everything and I don;t know, he really helped the poor community because they were being, like, obviously, the higher elites were totally, like, taking control over them and making them do stuff that they had no control over. What they, like, they‟re lives you know? So I thought he was really cool and Page 4 �just the fact that he didn‟t even start out to do that, like he, just ended up seeing it and realized that something was wrong and he needs to change it. A: So, you were talking about the international schools. Is there any-you said there were Bolivians to start off with, was it the higher class Bolivians or like, the lower class Bolivians, that were looked down upon, they just chose a select few to come to the schools or-just kind of go into more depth about the schooling. M: Um, because it was an international school, it was more expensive. So, the poor Bolivians couldn‟t really enter that, um, school. It‟s just really-I don‟t understand why they discriminate against them because the entire reason they were there was basically, they‟re in Bolivia obviously, there‟s going to be Bolivian people there. it was just that, I think that maybe one of the reasons was it was just a very strict Christian school and because most Bolivians are Catholic or because they‟re not-I think they were more liberal that maybe that‟s why they didn‟t like them. A: Alright, did you ever experience the lower class schools or just see what they were like as compared to your international school? M: Um, I have friends in like, other schools, like public schools, but I never really experienced them. A: Okay, did they ever make comments about the public schools. Like, just comparing them at all, did they ever talk about like, “Oh our school is so...” anything? Did they talk about their school? M: I think the school system probably was, well because there was more people, it was probably alot more disorganized but I‟m not really sure if there was a huge difference. A: Alright. J: Alright, um, so you went to one university, other than Grand Valley, last year, correct? Um, tell me a little bit about the diversity of it. M: It was actually really diverse, because, um, it was a Christian university so lots of missionary kids went there and they were like, from all different places. And they were also international kids and it was actually really cool because they had a group for missionary kids and a group for international kids and it was really interesting because I actually met one of my best friends there Page 5 �and he was from Bolivia too and I had never known him until I got to Taylor. So, it was really cool and there was also a guy from Ecuador that I got to know too and I think it was pretty diverse. J: Compared to Grand Valley, do you think it was more diverse? M: Um, I think that it‟s kind of hard to tell because Taylor was a lot smaller, so, it seemed like there was lots of people from lots of different places but I‟m also pretty sure that, um, Grand Valley has a lot of diversity, like, I‟m in the Latino Student Union and like, there‟s still a lot of diversity and different places people are from and that‟s just one organization. And there‟s so many organizations on campus that I think that Grand Valley actually does have a wide variety of diversity. J: Awesome. Um… Would you say that there are any landmark historic events that happened like within either Bolivian culture or your time in the States that you experienced? M: Um I think, I think that one even that appeared while I was in Bolivia that was like definitely changed Bolivia was I was there when they elected the first indigenous president, and he‟s actually still president right now, and that‟s just a huge deal because.. Like he was supposed to represent the indigenous people which is something Bolivia has lacked for so long. So that definitely, even though he still hasn‟t represented the indigenous people, at least now they still, are getting their voices out, and that‟s definitely changing the way Bolivia is today. J: Would you say that he‟s someone you look up to? M: I‟d say that .. it‟s really hard because he‟s done a lot of things that are not intelligent at all, but at the same time I really like the fact that he doesn‟t do like what everyone expects him to do, you know? He does something out of the norm, which is I like I think is something that Bolivia needs like in order to change so… J: Um… A: Okay. So I know we were talking a little before the interview a little bit, and you mentioned some things about protests. So do you want to go into more detail, like what they were about just? Page 6 �M: Usually there is a lot of protests and strike in Bolivia. Um a lot of this has to do with things like, they raise, All the sudden, they will raise the price of bread. They‟ll double it. Then all the stores will shut down, all the streets will get blocked, all the public transportation will stop. So basically everything shuts down until the people get their voices out and the government, er yea the government changes the policy. Um that also happens a lot with gas down there. They change the gas process a lot too. Right now they are actually trying to build a main high way through the amazon, the jungle, and like people have been protesting a lot about that. A: Do you think that is a good or bad thing? M: Definitely a bad thing because the only reason they, well I still haven‟t really researched it that much but, I think that the reason they are creating that is um basically they want to take the land resources, like the government wants to take it for themselves. So they are building that highway so that it will be easier for them to do that. Whereas there is this huge people group in that live in the jungle and are being exploited and they like don‟t even really know it. So I‟m definitely against it. A: Okay. And then just, I know in our class we have been talking about how history is taught in America and the problems with that. When you were in the international school, do they teach mainly world history, or like do they teach Bolivian history, or like American history? Like what did you basically learn about history? Like if you had to like.. You‟re teaching a.. If you like a… remember back in like 5th grade or whatever, What were you learning about in history? M: In 5th grade? A: Well just back like in your education, like early on, what kind of stuff were you learning? M: Yeah. Well I remember in 5th grade, actually I do remember because we played this game, and I was horrible at it, but I remember that we were each cast put into different groups and were like all different countries. So I think it was more like, we like learned more about the world than a specific place and also the only place where I like really learned about the Bolivian history was Spanish class. Like we would read Spanish history books and yeah stuff like that. Page 7 �A: And then did you learn like American history like at all? Or was it just kind of… M: I did learn American history. I don‟t really remember that much about it. A: That‟s okay. People in American really don‟t remember that much about American history… Um… Do you have any more questions Jenn? J: Um…Not that I can think of. A: Um maybe just going into more detail into history education, did you like learn about the World Wars, like Great World Wars one and two? M: I actually learn about um WWI and WWII, and that actually really is one reason that I want, I started to learn German because it expanded my horizon and made me realize, like how how like I don‟t know. I always that World War One and World War Two were really like impactful because it impacted like so many different countries and just like all the history that goes into like all really shocked me, and I really liked learning that stuff because it wasn‟t like about just one specific country. It was about so much… Diversity. A: So you‟ve lived in uh the starts for about two years now. So you have gotten to experience a lot of like the cultural differences. What were like some of the major major things that you see difference between like Bolivian culture and American Culture? M: One of the biggest differences, well there‟s a lot of differences, but the first one that hit me when I got to the States was the um punctuality of things here like… like for example when I first got there, there were a bunch of activities that freshman um would do and they would be like „ok we‟re meeting in 5 minutes in the hallway.‟ I‟d get there like 5 minutes late and everyone would be gone. And that is just like… first of all I was like ok I am only five minutes late, like in Bolivia if I was 30 minutes late everyone would still be there and would be waiting or like half of the people wouldn‟t be there yet and like secondly it was just, I don‟t know. In Bolivia there would always be someone waiting for you Like even if you were late. Like it was just the respectful thing to do, so…. That was really different for me. Yeah… A: Some other big differences? Like I remember you talked about like we kind of uptight. Like you cant cross, you have to cross the street here. You have to do this here. M: Yeah, there are so many rules in the States. The um that‟s why I kind of I feel like I ask a lot Page 8 �of questions here and I also just kind of instead of really being able to be myself in a way, like I kind of have to sit back and observe because I don‟t know what to do in certain situations or what the norm is so yeah it‟s a lot different learning. Yeah it um… Another thing that I realize is a huge difference was the fact that in the United States is a lot more fast paced. Go go go. And I just remember that my sisters would always come back, cause they came here for university too, they‟d come back to Bolivia for the summer or something and they would always be like „Oh I was so stressed out like over there.‟ I was like „Oh I‟m never going to be like that.‟ Cause in Bolivia I was never stressed out at all and then I came to the states and then like last year I was wahhh the entire time but no, I am getting used to it. I feel like I am a lot more laid back now and its weird because people would be like „You are so laid back‟ like when I would like still feel like uptight because I don‟t know of the society. I think, I just think that Bolivian society is a lot more relax, lay back and like people oriented and American society is more like um down to business, gotta get this done and then I will hang out with people. Yeah… A: Okay. Any other big differences you can think of? Or even like little things, like „Oh that‟s weird‟ we like, just things that like are every day to you and like here they are unheard of or like vice versa? M: Hmm… Well I guess one kind of weird thing is that down there I feel like is people are a lot more friendlier in the way that like you‟d go walking down the street and you wouldn‟t know anyone and you‟d just like „Hi‟ and they would just be like „Hi‟ blah blah blah blah. I don‟t know, it would just be like super friendly, whereas here, sometimes if you like say hi to a random person walking down the street they just like look at you like you are a weirdo or something. So I‟m always like ok I‟m not going to do that, and then it was really interesting because I was like on the bus one day and I started talking to this guy randomly and then he was just like „yeah I could tell you were a transfer because people here don‟t just randomly start talking to people. Page 9 �Like that‟s just not what you do.‟ And I was like „what like what‟s wrong with being friendly, you know?‟ I don‟t know. It was just weird for me. Um. A: Alright um. M: Another thing that I found that was really different, is like um I don‟t wanna like… I‟m not trying to say that like the United States is bad or anything. It‟s just totally like different culture but I feel like the people here spend a lot of time buying things. Whereas in Bolivia I would never really buy things… So it‟s just funny because like during this summer while I was working, like all of the girls that I worked with were like „Oh I can‟t wait until I get my paycheck so I can go out and shop and blah blah blah.‟ Like it was just weird to me to think that‟s the first thing they‟d spend their money on, is like clothes and accessories, I don‟t know yeah….and like another difference is, at least in Bolivia, in my city, there are poor people… everywhere like down the street, like there would be a poor person sleeping on the side of the street um whereas here you don‟t see that that much, and it‟s interesting because I um actually talked to some poor people here in Grand Rapids and it‟s just really interesting to see the difference between like the poor people here and the poor people in Bolivia cause the people here like.. I was talking to this one person and they were like telling me how there is different like soup kitchens and stuff and sometimes they don‟t go to this once place because it‟s nasty and they don‟t like that food, whereas like in Bolivia they don‟t have soup kitchens. They don‟t have homeless shelters. So like if you give them like the moldiest nastiest piece of bread they are going to eat it, you know? I don‟t know, it was just interesting to see the differences. A: Eh if you can think of any other differences, we can keep going on those. If not, we can move on. Its up to you. M: Um… Oh one huge difference. Well it‟s not a huge difference, but it was just something that I it got me mad because in Bolivia, there isn‟t that much diversity, and like... Well there is a bunch of diversity in like the fruit and like all the vegetables you get, but if you like go to the super Page 10 �market, like they have like one or two type of hot cocoa you know, for example. Whereas you go to a super market here and there is like an entire aisle of different like hot cocoas you know? I don‟t even know which one to pick and its crazy how much like they like have here in the states and yet like sometimes people are like „ugh I don‟t want this stuff. They should make a new kind of…‟ you know? When it‟s like there‟s so much of it. I don‟t know. It‟s crazy. A: Alright um. So I think that‟s about, you covered the main differences, I feel like. You said that your dad was American and your mom was Bolivian or her parents were American. What? M: Yeah, that‟s kind of difficult. My dad is from Michigan, and my mom, she was born in Cochabamba, the same place I was, but her parents were both American. So she has American citizenship and Bolivian citizenship like me, but… A: Okay. So um what kind of made your dad and your grandparents like decide to move from the states to Bolivia? Was there any like, big factors? M: Um I think that… well my grandparents were missionaries. M: And, I think they started off in Ecuador, and then they went to Bolivia. And then I think that the reason why my dad went down there was he actually, he started dating my mom and then my mom went down there for like the summer or something, and then she came back up, and then he, I just think that he was just intrigued with all the stuff she was telling him about it and stuff, so he decided to go down there for a year, and he just really liked it. Like they weren‟t even married or anything, but he just really liked it and then he came back to the States, and um, they also got into mission work too, and so they decided to go back. And I don‟t know, I‟m like really glad that I did grow up like in Bolivia, like I would never change that experience, ever. Like even when I struggle with like, who I am as a person, because of like am I Bolivian? But like when I‟m in Bolivia I don‟t really fit in that much because I am white. But when I‟m in the States, I don‟t really fit in either because even though I‟m white, like I have no idea like about the culture and stuff, you know? Like, it doesn‟t…I still, like still have that passion for Bolivia there, like I wouldn‟t change a thing. Page 11 �A: So, you said it was a very positive experience growing up in Bolivia? M: Yeah. I definitely…it also opened my eyes, like, I don‟t know, it helped me see that there‟s more to life than just myself. A: So, what would you say is your number one, all-time favorite thing about Bolivia, and the same thing for the United States? M: Ok, number one thing would probably be the people, just because, well they‟re warm, and they‟re easy going-ness. Like you go to Bolivia, you go to someone‟s house, they have no idea who you are, but they will just be the most caring person to you, and like, Bolivians are extremely hospitable. Like you will not leave their house unless you are like extremely full, and like anything they can do to make you happy they‟ll do it, like basically, yeah. And for the States, um, I don‟t know if I‟ve like found what I like best about it yet. A: Maybe like some top things? If you can‟t pick a favorite, not your all-time favorite, but just things that you really like about the States. Like didn‟t you say ketchup? M: Yeah, I just love American food cause it‟s so good. It‟s the best. They need to get that in Bolivia. M: Yeah, but like I guess like I really like the different opportunities. Like in Bolivia, if I had gone to an University in Bolivia, I would already have to know my major, there are only so many specific majors I can have, you can‟t have a minor, like it‟s very like, there are only, you don‟t get all this opportunity that you get here. Also, there‟s like tons of clubs, like on campus. Like, the Middle Eastern club, the fencing club, the, you know, there‟s a bunch of like a variety, like it opens up so many different paths for you to take. Which I think is really cool about the States. Yeah. …..I also like the four seasons. Not really I hate winter. A: I‟m guessing it never snows in Bolivia? M: It does, but not where I live. A: Like, up in the mountains? M: Yeah. A: Is it mostly like summer weather? Like what‟s the weather like in Bolivia would you say? Like just an average day. M: Well, in my city? A: Yeah. In your city. Page 12 �M: Ok, in my city, well I live in like a valley, so it‟s surrounded by mountains, um, so it‟s like spring weather year round. So it‟s like sunny the entire year and then like a certain time of year is when it‟s rainy season. And then that‟s it. But there‟s no humidity, so it‟s so nice. A: That sounds nice. M: I know. J: So um, going off cultural differences, and because of the fact that you don‟t know much about American culture, um, do you feel that people are ever really confused as to why you don‟t, if they don‟t know that you are from Bolivia? Like, are they ever like, „why don‟t you know this?‟ You know? Like if they bring up something about American culture, and you‟re like „wait what?‟ like are they ever confused like that? M: Yeah, and then I‟m just like, I just have to be like „I‟m from Bolivia.‟ And they‟ll be like „what? You live in Africa?‟…No I‟m kidding. But yeah, I get that a lot, a lot of people, like, almost everyone I‟ve met, doesn‟t think I‟m from a different country, just because, like I went to an International school, so I don‟t have an accent, I know English, I don‟t look like, like I‟m from Bolivia, so everyone just assumes that I‟m American. So, in a way, I don‟t know, it‟s kind of like, like I don‟t know, I‟m still debating on if I like the fact that I‟m white. But like obviously it‟s a good thing because like I‟m white so, there must be a reason for it, you know? But, no sometimes it‟s nice because no one really knows me until they actually want to. A: Ok and so also going off of culture difference, like is there any like culture shocks here? Like something you thought like „you guys really do that?‟ like, and Bolivia too, like things in Bolivia that like, you know would like be looked at weird here. ….do you need me to explain more? Like things that we do in America that you‟re like „what?‟ or like things that you do in Bolivia that people here would be like „what? You really do that Bolivia?‟ Like just like culture things like that. M: Well, I know that people, well like people here would see and think that what people eat in Bolivia is crazy. Because, because what we eat, what one of the best dishes that they have there is cow tongue, like it sounds disgusting, like to most Americans, but it‟s so good. And like, it Page 13 �makes sense, like If you‟re going to kill a cow, like you might as well eat every part of it. And to them it‟s tasty. So, yeah, um, I really, um think that people in the United States would think that‟s really weird. Something weird here…um, let me think…. J: I know you were talking about one day, since you are my roommate, um , you were talking about how you had to get used to the toilet paper issue? M: Oh yes! Ok, um, yeah like in Bolivia, you are not allowed to throw toilet paper into the toilet, because it will clog the drains, or the pipes. So, when I got to the States, it was the weirdest thing, because I‟d go to use the bathroom, and I would be looking for the trashcan. And there would be no trash can around the toilet, you know? So I‟d be like, where I am supposed to put this? So, yeah finally I got used to throwing it in the toilet. But that was just really weird for me. A: Do you ever forget when you‟re back in Bolivia and cause problems? M: Yeah, when I first get back, I always forget. And that‟s really bad. My dad gets so mad. …I guess like one other thing, even though Bolivia is modernizing in this way, but they usually use forks and knives for everything when they eat there, like even like a wrap or something, and like here they don‟t do that. Like, you like eat with your hands, you know? So I just thought that that was really weird. A: Yeah that is weird. M: Yeah….Oh! Another huge weird thing, well this is something my grandma told me a long time ago. But um, she told me that she went to a restaurant and they were ordering dessert and stuff right? And the girl asked oh, my grandma asked here if the brownies were like still in a package or like handmade, and the girl was like, um, she was like what do you mean handmade? Like she didn‟t know that there was another way to make brownies, like she thought they only came in a package, like for me like it was like exactly the opposite. Like in Bolivia, we make everything from scratch, so to like have a brownie like from like a package, I was like what? That was so weird for me, even though they‟re really good. A: Alright, well that‟s all of our questions, is there anything you would like just kind of like to Page 14 �add? Like to promote Bolivia, or just like… M: Yeah, everyone should go to Bolivia. It‟s amazing. No, I‟m serious, um, we have everything, we have mountains, we have jungle, we have beach, I mean we don‟t have a beach, but we used to. We have planes, we have the most dangerous, um, road on earth, that you can go biking on, which is so awesome. And I don‟t know, like people there are just awesome and their….everything is really cheap. That was another difference coming to the States is everything is so expensive here I can‟t use any money! But, oh yeah, and just the fact that like in Bolivia as a high schooler, it‟s really hard to get a job, like it‟s almost impossible. Whereas in the States, there‟s like so much opportunity, even though like right now they say that it‟s hard to get a job, compared to Bolivia, it‟s not hard to get a job at all. So, that was like a big difference too. And it‟s like actually fun being able to work here, I felt really independent. A: And where did you work? M: Um, I worked at the catering service at my University, I also worked at um, in the library of my University, and I also worked as a hostess during the summer. It‟s really cool that I like can like actually work in a restaurant because someday I want to open my own café. A: Alright, does anyone have anything else, like any more questions or anything else you would like to add? M: Um, I don‟t know, just like the fact that I think it‟s really cool, like I never realized how cool it was to realize people‟s differences, like even like the difference between the American culture and the Bolivian culture. Like at first I was like „oh, I don‟t know if I could really ever be really close to any of them because like they come from such a different, like background than me, you know? But I think now, like I see it as a different way that like they‟ve grown up, but it‟s like really cool because it‟s a totally different culture and it‟s like really cool to like learn like from them and they can also learn from you, you know, because you‟ve like grown up from a different culture and a different background too, so I just think it‟s really cool like diversity is like one of my favorite things because like it‟s awesome, you have no idea what German, like what it‟s like Page 15 �to be a German. You grow up in Germany your entire life, you know, so I want to promote diversity. A: Well, uh, thank you for your time. M: Yeah, you‟re welcome. A: It was a really great interview. M: Yeah, thanks for interviewing me. END OF INTERVIEW Page 16 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5a99e39dff9a5659ae73c858d2115bb0.mp3 fecaa9873f4699f58577b92bddc3a25c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Sutherland_Maria Title A name given to the resource Maria Sutherland audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sutherland, Maria Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Burke, Kayla Noth, Jennifer Suriano, Alex Description An account of the resource Maria Sutherland is from Cochabamba, Bolivia. She describes her experience as an immigrant to the United States. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Discrimination against Hispanic Americans Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-31 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3953bc0fd4b3d533816b1fa3288f438a.pdf 55641b228202b60773a5bdd25bd47956 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Jeffrey Sorensen Interviewers: Christina Ober, Anthony Weinke, Michael Doak and Max Sadler Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 11/4/2011 Runtime: 01:06:51 Biography and Description Jeffrey Sorensen grew up in the Upper Pennisula of Michigan. He discusses the stereotypes and misconceptions of “yoopers.” Transcript Christina: Describe your childhood growing up in the UP. How was it a normal childhood, and/or was it abnormal? Jeffrey: I’d say growing up in the UP, it was mostly normal. I mean, the UP’s a little bit, not as advanced as other places, but like compared to like other people growing up I didn’t have any big differences really. Except for the fact that I didn’t go hunting. Christina: How do people generally perceive ‘yoopers’ the stereotypes or misconceptions? Jeffrey: They all go hunting they all wear camo, we don’t have running water, yeah that’s about it. Christina: Do you think your family had any of those stereotypes that you didn’t? Jeffrey: Well, my brothers both always go hunting, and I don’t. My brothers own camo, and I don’t. All of the male members of my family own guns, and I don’t. Christina: Did your family ever try to influence you to do any of those stereotypes? Page 1 �Jeffrey: Not really, my brothers originally kinda tried to get me to go hunting, but they didn’t really care that I didn’t. I mean, I like shooting guns, so that isn’t a big thing, I just never bought one. Christina: Did you just not want to do it, or did you have other things going on? Jeffrey: It was a combination of I didn’t want to do it really, like it wasn’t my thing, and I was just busy with other stuff going on in school or other things like boy scouts or band or track or anything like that. Christina: How do you think masculinity played a role when you played sports throughout High school? Jeffrey: I don’t think it really was an issue, like I was the head captain of my track team, and everyone listened to me just like they would listen to anyone else, actually probably more than they would listen to them, I never really had any issues with people trying to be more masculine in track, so like trying to dominate my authority or anything like that. Christina: What experience with masculinity or imasculinity did you have during your high school career? Jeffrey: I was always a band geek, so that’s considered less masculine. But then I was also in track, so being in sports is supposed to be more masculine. I don’t know. There wasn’t really too much of a big distinguishment [sic] between masculinity and imasculinity other than when it came to sports. Christina: Do you have any clubs or groups at your school that support gaysor talk about gays at all? Jeffrey: When I was there, we didn’t. The year I left, they made one. Christina: Did you wish there were any? Page 2 �Jeffrey: At one point I tried to start one up, myself, and two other people were trying to start a GSA, a Gay Straight Alliance, but it just didn’t work out, we couldn’t find a teacher that was willing to be the advisor for it. Christina: Do you think that in your high school there were gays that came out, or did you mostly think they hid it, since there was nothing that helped them? Jeffrey: Well, there was, when I was there only one other guy was openly gay. But I know there was other people who were friends of mine that I knew were gay, but they weren’t open to everyone else. Christina: How do you think the idea of masculinity changed when going from High School to college, or do you think it doesn’t? Jeffrey: Well, in college, even less people care. For me, in High School, it wasn’t that big of a deal, but in college, it’s just not a deal, or not a big deal, at all. Nobody really cares. I would say there’s a greater variation of masculinity and imasculinity, but it’s not something that people really care about. Christina: Do you think they have a lot more clubs and things that you can talk to other people like you than your high school? Jeffrey: Yeah, there’s definitely a lot more. I mean, I think of three different groups right off the top of my head, where my high school had nothing. Christina: What experience have you had in college with masculinity or imasculinity? Jeffrey: Um… Christina: Do you partake in any of the groups at Grand Valley? Page 3 �Jeffrey: Well, I’m not involved in any of the LGBT groups at Grand Valley, it’s not really something I care to be a part of, but I’m involved in other groups, like I’m a founding father of a fraternity, which generally you would think a fraternity is this really masculine type organization, but yet I’m still a founding father. Christina: What do you think is the role masculinity plays in a fraternity? Jeffrey: Masculine role in a fraternity? Even the guys in our fraternity who are straight, there’s a lot fo them who really aren’t masculine. Some of them are, some of them aren’t, some of them are kind of in between, so I really don’t think it plays a role. Christina: What kind of stereotype do you think a fraternity has and do you think yours follows in any of those stereotypes? Jeffrey: A lot of those stereotypes are just like that frats like to party, like to drink, that to join you have to go through a huge ordeal, that there’s a lot of hazing, basically just guys that are really macho and a lot of people describe them as tools, but my fraternity, and a lot of fraternities on campus, we don’t really fit those stereotypes, we try not to be tools, which that depends on your definition of tools. But we try not to act like we own the place, like a lot of fraternities do, we’re kind of trying to change that stereotype, especially at Grand Valley. We want to be different, we want to be a diverse group, not a group that’s like a bunch of guys who are all the same. We’ve got a wide range of guys from gay, bi, straight, and then we have a few different races within our fraternity too. Christina: Have you ever had any problems with your fraternity, being gay? Jeffrey: Well, I’m totally open to my fraternity. Everyone knows I’m gay, I have openly talked about going on dates with guys, and nobody’s really cared that I talk about it. We’re all brothers, we support each other, even if someone doesn’t necessarily agree with it, because we’re brothers, they’re going to support it. Christina: Do you think being in a fraternity at grand valley is different than if you were in a fraternity at a bigger school, like Michigan or State? Do you think that you’d be perceived differently as gay? Page 4 �Jeffrey: I think being gay wouldn’t necessarily effect it. It could. The bigger schools tend to have fraternities that have more hazing and stuff like that, and I think that being gay might effect how much I would be hazed. I would assume that a gay person would be hazed more than a straight person. But I would say once they’re in the fraternity it wouldn’t be any different than it is here. Christina: So, if you went to one of those schools, you wouldn’t have thought different about joining a fraternity? Jeffrey: I would’ve thought differently because of the hazing part of it and me being gay, I would expect to be hazed more, so for that reason I probably wouldn’t have gone Greek. Christina: Going back to your childhood, when do you first think you found out you were gay, and describe the process. Jeffrey: I would say I’ve known most of my life. I started getting a pretty good idea of it when I was in 5th grade though. Even before that, looking back, I can kind of see the signs of “oh yeah, I wasn’t the same.” Fifth grade was about the time I was figuring out that I liked guys, and the after a couple more years I was trying to figure out if I just liked guys and liked girls or if I just liked guys, or whatever. After seventh grade I figured out that I’m not attracted to girls at all, and that I’m only attracted to guys. I’d say by eighth grade I knew for sure that I was just gay, not bi. But I’ve showed the signs that I was different since second grade probably. At recess I would play with the girl friends instead of go play sports with the guys, I didn’t like a lot of the same things that the guys liked. I wasn’t into a lot of sports. I mean, I wasn’t into girly things, I just wasn’t into sports so I hung out with girls more often. Christina: You told me before that you dated girls while in High School. Do you think that was a way of you showing masculinity and following in the footsteps of the male figures around you? Jeffrey: I didn’t date girls in high school, but I did in middle school. But I don’t think that was me trying to prove anything to anyone, it was more I wasn’t sure at that point whether I liked girls or if I just liked guys. During middle school, I dated girls to try to figure out if I did like girls or not. At that point I knew that I liked guys, but I needed to figure out whether I liked girls, or if I was just gay. Christina: Describe the event of coming out to your parents. Page 5 �Jeffrey: I told my mom. I never told my dad, but I’m pretty sure my mom told her, him. When I came out to my mom, it was because I was telling her about one of my friends who happened to be gay, and I mentioned that part and she said “well why are you friends with him?” And then eventually she said “If he’s gay, why are you friends with him?” and my response was “because I am too.” And she didn’t take it very well. At first she didn’t really know what to think, she didn’t really believe me I guess. She didn’t know if I knew for sure that I was gay, but at that point I was a junior in High School, and I had known for many years. She even told me I shouldn’t tell my dad. She didn’t want me to really openly pursue a gay relationship, and she wanted me to kinda just for the most part keep it to myself, which to me wasn’t something I could do, and at that point I was pretty much completely open in school, all my friends knew, most of the other people in the school knew, it was just my family that didn’t know at that point. Christina: How did you come out to your brothers, and based on the stereotype of brothers in a family competing to be the best and giving each other a hard time, did that happen? Jeffrey: Well, when I came out to my brothers, both of them had already moved out. I was the only one living at home, and actually at that point I wasn’t really living at home anymore, I was off getting ready for college and I was living with one of my brothers. But, when we were younger we had that concept of brothers always competing, but now that we’re older, we’re just that; we are brothers, and we are family. So, I told my brothers one night, my oldest brother threw a party, and first I told my oldest brother’s fiancé, and then she kinda helped me because she already knew about it, but was trying to get me to tell her on my own time, so once I told her she kinda had me practice, because the goal was to tell my brother by the end of the night. So she had me practice by telling her brother and her best friend, and one of her cousins, and some of the other people at the party, and finally the last person I told was my brother. So we kinda pulled him aside, and she said “your brother has something to tell you.” And she said “it’s something you’ve kinda had suspicions on for a while, but never really knew for sure.” So I just said that I’m gay, and his response was “yeah, and?” My other brother I didn’t tell, but I told his girlfriend, and I gave her permission to tell him, and he already knew too, she told me he already knew, but didn’t want to assume. She just confirmed it for him. With both of my brothers I can openly talk about being gay. If I’m in a relationship with someone, my middle brother I can talk to, he’s okay with me sharing stuff about that. He’s not good at giving any advice, but he’s willing to listen. My oldest brother is a little uncomfortable with the relationships, but that’s mostly just because he’s my brother, and a lot of the time you don’t want to hear about your sibling’s relationships, so it’s just the same concept. But, if I really needed to talk to him, he would be willing to. Like I said, we are brothers, and we outgrew that competing stage and now we’re just completely supportive of each other. Christina: Do you think it helped a lot that your brothers accepted you since your parents technically didn’t? Page 6 �Jeffrey: I would say with my parents being how they were, they didn’t really want me to be open about it, but my brothers are very supportive and they know how my parents reacted so when I officially came out to them they told me like if I can’t go to Mom and Dad for something then I can go to them. They basically wanted to make sure that I knew that just because they’re my brothers and I don’t have sisters they wanted me to know even though they’re guys I can still go to them. They might not know necessarily how to deal with something but because they’re my brothers they will try to help me if I ever need them. Christina: How did you come out to your friends and did you do this before or after you did to your family? Jeffrey: I came out to my friends first, and just like my brothers they already knew, it was just a matter of me telling them, so during my junior year I kind of slowly told my closer friends and the general response was yeah what’s new. Everyone knew, it wasn’t a surprise to anyone it was more a surprise that I was finally telling them. I would say by the end of my junior year I was out to everyone. Of course all of my friends knew and before I even came out everyone pretty much knew I was gay, there wasn’t much surprise there. My closest friends were supportive of it and I kind of left after junior year unsure of how senior year was going to be because I came out to the rest of the school right at the end of the year. Then senior year came around and basically I just walked in the door and flaunted it, but not really flaunted it, but owned it. I was myself. I wasn’t trying to hide anything anymore. I kind of had a hint of what it was like to be myself and for everyone to know who I am and be supportive of that so senior year I didn’t try to hide anything and I was just myself from that point on. Christina: You said that your friends pretty much already knew, do you think your parents had any idea prior to you coming out? Jeffrey: I think they kind of had an idea but a lot of parents aren’t too thrilled to hear if their son is gay so I think they probably kind of had the idea but they were more denying it than anything to the point that they didn’t really believe it. I know my mom was kind of shocked by it but part of that is before that I would come home and say like I heard this rumor about me and it has to do with me being gay and my mom would never ask me if the rumor was true but because I was upset about rumors like that like she just assumed that they weren’t true and I think she assumed that that was kind of my way of saying they weren’t true but because I was her son she was getting the wrong message I guess. Christina: Your relationship with your parents now do you not feel as comfortable now as you did before? Do you think they think differently of you? Jeffrey: I would actually say I’m more comfortable now because like before I was just the oddball son I didn’t do the same thing as my brothers, I didn’t go hunting and stuff like that. I was the one that was always involved in band and other organizations and stuff but never like the big sports but I did track but that’s not considered one of the big sports but like my parents I think before I came out to them they didn’t really have an excuse for me to be Page 7 �different it was just I was the oddball son they never had a problem with it but I kind of did. But then after I came out now they know why I’m a little bit different from my brothers they know that the reason I’m little bit more flamboyant is because I’m gay and a lot of those gay stereotypes that they didn’t have an excuse for before they now have an excuse for. Christina: Have you ever actually sat down with your Dad and talked about being gay or is it basically just your mom? Jeffrey: So far it’s been just my mom and I haven’t even talked to her enough to know what all he knows I just know that he knows I’m gay and that might be the extent of it but between my dad and I it’s just like a unspoken thing. I don’t know if he’s really comfortable with talking about it. He doesn’t treat me any differently he treats me now just like he did when I was a kid so nothings changed there. I know he knows, and he knows that I know he knows and that’s the extent of it. We don’t talk about it, he never brings it up. We’ve actually never talked about it at all. Christina: How does religion play a role and how has it throughout your life? Jeffrey: Most of my life I wasn’t religious at all but then during high school a lot of my friends were really religious, they went to church every sunday they went to the local bible camp and basically the entire summer was filled with different events at the bible camp. I had a lot of friends that did different mission trips and were involved in different ministries all around but I wasn’t involved in that stuff so being friends with those people I started getting more and more involved and I became really religious I was probably one of the most religious of my friends for a while. I went to church every sunday I ended up controlling some of the audio visual stuff at the church and then I was working at the bible camp as a high ropes instructor and when I wasn’t scheduled to instruct there I would help out around there. If they didn’t need any extra help there I would go to another part of the camp and volunteer and help out. I was involved in a worship band that traveled around to all the churches in the area and we did different performances and lead worship and stuff all over the place. We had our own ministry stuff going on throughout the week so on an average week I was doing stuff for different weeks but religion based probably four days a week and then at one point my church kind of caught wind that I was gay and the leaders of the church pulled me aside and asked me about it but I wasn’t really telling them anything and eventually kind of figured out I wasn’t denying it but I wasn’t confirming it either so they figured out what they heard was true so they decided first I couldn’t control the audio visual stuff anymore and they said that was a leadership position and they couldn’t have someone that was gay doing a leadership position. I told them if I wasn’t doing that I wasn’t going to go to their church anymore. I quit going but they basically pulled me back in and said that they didn’t want me to leave it was just because it was a leadership position and they don’t want people to get the wrong idea which I didn’t agree with at all but some of my best friends went to that church so I didn’t want to stop going so I decided to keep going. I eventually stopped going to church though. I slowly stopped attending their services every week. First I would go every other week, then every three weeks, and eventually I quit going altogether. I kept going to the youth group at one point one of the Page 8 �leaders pulled me aside and kept asking me about being gay and asking if I was going to change. I told him I wasn’t going to change, I wasn’t willing to change, and it wasn’t possible for me to change. At that point his daughter was my best friend and he told me he didn’t want me ever talking to her again. I quit going to the youth group then. The only reason he became a leader of that youth group was to watch me and make sure I wasn’t going to influence anyone. So I quit going, and I kinda, at that point like, it was the winter so I kind of silently quit working there, cuz it was the off-season so I wouldn’t be working anyway so I just didn’t show up the next summer. Um, and with the worship band at that point they were the only ones that I felt comfortable talking to. Um, so I told the woman who was in charge of the ministry that the worship band was for, and well I told her and her son, and he was becoming one of my best friends. Um, he was the lead in the worship band, and like we hung out quite a bit. Um, so I told the two of them and, they didn’t try to kick me out right away, but they told me they can’t have me like openly gay in the worship band. Um, they said if it just stayed between them they wouldn’t try to kick me out or anything, they just couldn’t have like that image, I guess. Um, mainly because it was nondenominational, um so we were going around to different churches, they didn’t want to do anything that would take away from what a certain church was trying to enforce. So I kept going to the worship band stuff for a while, but they kept trying to kinda say like “have you thought about changing?” like “Are you willing to change?” and I started getting less comfortable with hanging around them so I slowly stopped going to that. So that was like my last religious like organization that I quit going to and like since then I haven’t gone to church, um, when I came to Grand Valley I didn’t start going to church again. Um, I pretty much just like, quit religion. Um, at this point I’m not religious in any way; um I don’t really have any kind of belief system. I’m not agnostic, I’m not atheist, like I just don’t have a belief system, and I don’t really care to develop some kind of belief system, but um, it’s one of those things where I’m open to the idea, but because of my past I’m not going to actively try to develop some kind of new religious beliefs. Christina: Do you think if your church would have been accepting to you in the very beginning that it would be completely different now? Jeffrey: I don’t think that it would be completely different, because I’m sure most of the people at the church knew, maybe not some of the older ones who weren’t used to seeing gay people, but for the most part, all the younger people in the church I’m pretty sure knew, especially the one that went to my school, or even their parents. Like, they all knew so I don’t think it would have been hugely different, and about when I stopped going to the church isn’t really that long before I moved out of the house and moved in with my brother, um downstate just before coming to Grand Valley. So I don’t think it would be that different, but I don’t think I would have like a negative, um, I don’t think I would have some kind of like negative feeling towards religion, if they were accepting right away, but other than how I feel about religion, I don’t think that it would be much different. Page 9 �Christina: Yea, if they, when you came out, if they were completely acceptable of it and said we want you to stay here and we accept that you’re gay, do you think you would have kept going and then when you came to Grand Valley would occasionally think more religiously than you do now or do you think you still would have straight away? Jeffrey: I think if that was the case I probably would have kept going to church, um, while I was there I would have kept going to that church, and then when I came to Grand Valley I probably would have found a church to go to, um, and I might have actually been involved in like a worship band here or something along those lines. Christina: Do you kind of wish that had happened or do you think that it happened for a reason? Jeffrey: I’m for the most part a believer in that everything happens for a reason, and I feel like if the church and the worship band and the bible camp and everything wasn’t or if they were more accepting maybe I would have ended up staying in the U.P., but part of the reason why I came down to Grand Valley was because, the U.P. isn’t as accepting of like gay people. There’s really not that many. So it might have influenced where I ended up now, but like like I said, I am a firm believer in everything happens for a reason, so I feel like part of it was kind of I was meant to maybe not necessarily be non religious, but at least meant to come here. And that was one of the things that kind of pushed me away from the U.P. to come here. Christina: Do you think the religious groups on campus think of gays differently than your church back home do? Jeffrey: Um, I think some of them do, but some of them don’t. Christina: Based on now where you are in your life, do you think everyone is accepting of your orientation? Jeffrey: I think anyone who I associate with like on a regular basis, like anyone who is a friend of mine or involved with any organizations with me, um I would say like they are all completely accepting. Obviously, if they weren’t accepting, they wouldn’t be my friend. Um, I never really hear anything about anyone not being accepting of me specifically, um, I mean obviously I am gonna hear like about people Page 10 �being not accepting of gay people in general, but I never hear it specifically towards me because of me being gay. Christina: Do you find it different in class or anything with the way you look and the way you talk, and how you like perceive yourself, do you find any problems with the peers in your classes or around campus? Jeffrey: Not really, um, Grand Valley has a lot of gay people so it’s something everyone is used to, and like, I mean a lot of people dress really well here, but then at the same there’s gay people here that don’t dress very well at all. So I would say like how I dress isn’t a big issue, because there’s a lot of gay people who dress really well, and there a lot of straight people who dress really well. Um, I would say how I talk is more feminine so like straight guys for the most part like their voice isn’t gonna be as feminine as mine, but like nobody really cares. Um, like everyone is their own person, and I think everyone here like realizes that, so the way different people dress or talk or act like doesn’t really phase anyone. Christina: Do you feel a lot more comfortable through expressing yourself at Grand Valley than you did at home and places away from Grand Valley? Jeffrey: Well, like, when I’m at school at Grand Valley, like I’m completely open I can be myself. There’s no one here that I feel like I need to hide anything from. But then like if I go home, because my parents aren’t comfortable with me being gay, they know about it, but because they‘re not comfortable with it I try to give them that little bit of comfortablility, where like I’m not going to be totally flamboyant in front of them. Um, a lot of my extended family doesn’t know, so I’m not going to act really gay in front of them, um, so when I go home I kind feel like I’m confined to how I acted before I was open, so I don’t really like to go home, but I think as I’m getting older my parents are kind of getting more used to me being more flamboyant because just as I grew up I became more and more flamboyant, because I was kind of becoming more comfortable with myself. It’s just not to the point where I’m comfortable with my parents, but the older I get the more comfortable I get with it and, and the more I kind of act more like gay in front of my parents. Um, I care about what they think and don’t want to make them uncomfortable, but at the same time I need to kind of put them out of their comfort zone a little bit, because I’m their son so they kind of have to get used to it, because it’s not changing. Christina: Do you think you’re ever going to be completely yourself around them? How long do you think that might take? Page 11 �Jeffrey: Um, well eventually I would like to be. I would like to be open to like my entire extended family. Um, I don’t know if that will actually ever happen or how long it will take. Um, I would say if I did I wanted to start coming out to more people it would probably start with some of my cousins because they are like my age level or somewhere close. So, like they are the ones that because they are younger and I’m sure they have been exposed to more like gay people they would be the ones who would already pretty much know. Just like my friends knew or my brothers knew and a lot of the people in the church knew. So it wouldn’t be a big deal. Um, my like extended family like my aunts, and grandparents, and uncles, um, they might be a lot harder to tell. I think when it gets to that point I might just kind of be myself and let them think whatever they want to think. Um, I don’t really feel like it’s necessary that I go and tell everyone, because if I just be myself they’re gonna know, and if they don’t know, either way they’re family, and knowing my family, like they won’t disown me, like they’ll accept me for who I am. So, I’d say eventually I’ll be out to my whole family, and at that point like, the more out I am to the rest of my family, the more my parents are gonna be exposed to. So the more they’re gonna have to get more comfortable with it. Christina: How do you feel about the laws surrounding being gay? Such as gay marriage. Jeffrey: Well, at some point I would like to be married, so obviously I want the laws to say that gay people can get married. And I prefer to not have to move to different state in order to be married or go to a different state to be married and then come back to my own state and not be recognized. Like if I'm living in Michigan I want to be able to be married and live in Michigan and have that marriage be recognized, or wherever I end up. And then, along those same lines, like most states don't allow for a gay couple to adopt, even if they're allowed to be married, a lot of states don't allow for them to adopt a child and being like two men or two women it's hard to have a child of your own so along those same lines I think it shouldn't be harder for gay people to be able to adopt a kid because they can be just as good parents as a strait couple. Christina: What do you think its going to take for these laws to actually change? Jeffrey: I think its just a matter of time. Slowly more and more states get added to the list of the ones that allow gay marriage and the ones that don't allow gay marriage a lot of theme are allowing civil unions and domestic partnerships, which aren't the same but at least its a step towards allowing gay marriage. Eventually the other states are going to keep adding more and more to what they allow. As a whole, society is becoming more accepting of people who are different in any way. So it's really just a matter of time until enough people are accepting of it that when it comes to a vote people will vote for gay marriage to be legalized and for gay adoption to be legalized. And eventually it will be pretty much as easy to live a gay life as to live a strait life. There's still going to be some hardships for gay people but I Page 12 �think its just a matter of time until it evens out as much as it's going to. Christina: Going back to stereotypes, what do you feel and how do you think the stereotypes for a strait man differ from a gay man? Jeffrey: Stereotypes for a strait man is usually more masculine, plays sports, maybe more muscular guys. And then even like a lot of times one stereotype is what they drink. More masculine men might drink beer, where a gay person may drink a fruity drink. But then the stereotypes with gay people are usually more flamboyant, they dress better. Strait people might wear clothing that doesn't look the greatest or maybe a lot of athletic wear and gay people tend to wear the name brands like Express or BKE and stuff like that, where as strait men don't want to spend the money like that. Even like kind of with the way we act, strait men usually are more macho, try to be like the alpha male. Gay men can be kind of like the same way, but we still want to be like in charge but we kind of have our own way of doing it. We don't just try to just look intimidating and get our way by being big and muscular. But, I would say gay people are generally thought to be more, maybe not smart, but conniving. We kind of know how people think because obviously we are guys so we know how guys think for the most part but we relate to girls so we kind of know how they think too, so we kind of have an edge on things and we tend to have a better understanding of both groups, males and females. Christina: How do you think our society stresses these stereotypes through the media and television and movies? Jeffrey: Well in a lot of TV shows and movies if there's a gay person in it they're usually pretty flamboyant, they don't usually have the strait acting gay people because then you wouldn't really know that they're gay. So generally when you see a gay person on the a TV or movie they're really gay and flamboyant and they probably have a higher voice so I would say with strait people in the media theres a lot of variation there, but when it comes to gay people they don't have a very big variation they mostly just they're all flamboyant. Christina: Do you think the media over exaggerates these qualities in gays and straights? Jeffrey: I would say for the most part with strait people they don't over exaggerate because there's enough variation and they show the variations with different strait people, but with gay people, like I said they tend to show mostly the really flamboyant guys so there really isn't enough of a variation to go away from enforcing the stereotype. Page 13 �Christina: Do you think the media is slowing changing into showing more of these gays that are in sports and gays who are in fraternities over how they use to show gays? Jeffrey: I would say in general gay people are showing up in the media a little bit more so that kind of overflows into showing more gay people in fraternities or gay people in sports, but I would say that overall because they're showing more its just overflowing to all areas where its considered a more masculine thing. Christina: Okay, those are all of my question, do you guys have any? Michael: I'm kind of curious because you reference masculinity a few times, and I know its a hard question to kind of deal with it but how would you describe masculinity? Jeffrey: I would say to me masculinity is more like the macho, involved in the things that are considered more manly, like sports and being muscular. Where as femininity is when someone is more girly, flamboyant, cares about their looks a little bit more, and dresses well. Anthony: Was track the only sport you did in high school? Jeffrey: Track was the only sport I did just because I was also involved in the band so during the other seasons I would be doing stuff with the band so track was the only season I was available for. Anthony: Is there any reasons besides track that you didn't do the other sports, I know like football and basketball are stereotyped as more masculine or macho thing to do? Did that play a role? Jeffrey: Well I didn't really like football so I don't really know if me being gay was the reason or not. I just didn't like football. So thats why I wasn't in that. But then when it came to basketball season the jazz band played during basketball games so thats why I wouldn't be involved in it so I actually like basketball so I think if I wasn't so involved in the band I would probably have tried out for the basketball team. I wouldn't have been that great but I would have at least tried out for the JV team. Page 14 �Anthony: Did you say you were also in boy scouts? Jeffrey: Yea, I was involved in boy scouts between like fifth grade and senior year. Anthony: How far did you go with that? Did you stay with it pretty actively? Jeffrey: For the most part as long as I was in it I was pretty active. Kind of the last couple years I was involved in so much other stuff that it was hard for me to be really active in boy scouts but I went to as much as I could. Anthony: Did you, in boy scouts, were you like openly gay with them and the other scouts in the group or with the adult leaders? Jeffrey: Not with the adult leaders. Some of the scouts that were right around my age that were right within a few grades of me knew, but by the time I was a junior or senior we had scouts who were in the seventh or eight grade and I didn't feel like it was appropriate for me to be completely open in front of them so they didn't know and then the leaders didn't know. Michael: I'm kind of curious, you said that in, I think it was middle school you weren't really interested in sports at all, or more in general in elementary school you weren't that interested in sports and you considered that sort of a sign that you were gay. What changed your mind I guess because I'm kind of curious what the evolution was between that and then high school wanting to possibly play basketball and being in track? Jeffrey: I would say in elementary school the big sport was football, no one really played basketball at recess. People just went out to the field and played football and I wasn't a big contact sport type of person so I would say it wasn't so much I wasn't interested in sports in general, but more I wasn't interested in the sports being played at that time. So then in middle school, I had always been a good runner, mostly because I was always running away from my brother but because I was such I good runner I really began to enjoy running so therefore I enjoyed track and I became one of the fastest runners so I was one of the people becoming in charge of the group so that’s why I was involved in track an why I enjoyed it so much. And then with basketball, I'm not sure what really attracted me to Page 15 �basketball but its not like a big contact sport so I think that was a big reason why I like basketball verses football. Anthony: I have one more, you said there are a lot of like adult leaders in your troop and your parents, do you think that’s a generational thing where they're not as okay with it and do you think as America as a whole becomes more okay with it is it older adults becoming okay with it or do you think it's just a lot of younger people? Jeffrey: I would say some adults are becoming more okay with it. The big thing is they didn't grow up with it so it something that they have to adjust to after already kind of knowing how society works, it's like its changing so they have to adjust to it. Which not everyone is totally okay with doing, But our generation is growing up with gay people being in the media, and just knowing gay people, and seeing gay people in public. So I think, and this might sound a little bit morbid, but as the older generations die off and what’s left is the younger generations it will become more accepted as a whole. Christina: Alright, thank you. END OF INTERVIEW Page 16 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0b9bda8f76e0e8703267045019bdd6ae.mp3 ff89646dd1ee3686fc17287e221f769f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Sorensen_Jeffrey Title A name given to the resource Jeffrey Sorensen audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Sorensen, Jeffrey Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Ober, Christina Weinke, Anthony Doak, Michael Sadler, Max Description An account of the resource Jeffrey Sorensen grew up in the Upper Pennisula of Michigan. He discusses the stereotypes and misconceptions of "yoopers." Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-11-04 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a69a5d94a46ffd04f2920a49b1e235c2.pdf 26c4e3c298a0ce8558ad2c2f1cb23c8d PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Christian Vannier Interviewers: Spencer and Tom Supervising Faculty: Liberal Arts Deparment Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/15/2011 Runtime: 00:56:24 Biography and Description Christian Vannier discusses the civil rights differences between western and eastern Michigan. In particular, he draws on his experiences at Wayne State University and Grand Valley State University. Transcript Spencer: Could you start out by giving us some basic information about yourself? For example your name, date and place of birth, family, education, etc. Professor Vannier: I was born August 16, 1985. I was actually born in San Jose, California because my parents were living out there at the time. My brother was born there too but then we moved back to Michigan and my father went to work in the auto industry. My father was born and raised and he started in Detroit then moved out to the suburbs with the wave of migration when everybody moved out to the suburbs. Born and raised in Southfield, my grandfather worked on the line for ford. My father eventually got a job there too. My father went to Michigan State, my mother went to Michigan State and so they met. So they are both educated and both got bachelor degrees. And afterwards they lived in Texas and California where I was born, eventually moved back and my father become a white collar worker and eventually rose in the ranks to become the head of international marketing with Ford. And he worked at that for a long time and in high school I barely saw him because he was always in Saudi Arabia or China or Columbia. You know all these different places where he was doing all this stuff. He would always bring me sweet stuff. He’s got piello head scars from Palestine from when he worked in Palestine. He always had awesome stories, which got me interested in anthropology. Like when working in Palestine he would talk about when you go over to Palestine the Palestinian border guards would be like “Hey Detroit! Detroit Pistons!” They want to know about basketball and stuff like that. And everybody would have fun and whatnot. Now going over to the Israel side, they would pull the trick where one guy would come up and ask for your passport and he would leave and another guy would come up and ask for your passport. “That guy just took it.” “No he didn’t.” Just to get you nervous and search your car if you speak out of turn just to give you a hard time. It was awful. But I would go over to the Palestinian side and everybody high fives you and off you go. It was great. But yeah, I got piello head scars, an old Yemini’s dagger Page 1 �made out of rhinoceros horn. But that’s what really got me into anthropology, is doing that kind of international stuff. Eventually my dad quit working for Ford and opened up his own company to do this stuff. Where he worked he was the head of the American branch of an English company. So he had to go to and from England all of the time and I would go with him at 18, 19 years old and hang out in London all day. It was fun. But eventually with the recession and everything collapses so it did to. It went the way of everything else. But he actually paid for my entire undergraduate education. He paid for my brother to go to Western, I went to Michigan, my youngest sister went to Bowling Green, and my other sister went to Purdue. It was never a question in our family; you were going to a university. You grow up under that assumption. That’s what you do. You don’t ever question that you’re going to a university. So we did, and like a lot of ways I told in class is like Miles violinists, we followed that pattern. And that is such a Detroit path. That is what Detroit gave America. Where the first persons in total poverty and works on the line, builds up an economic base. The second person gets educated because of that economic base and really builds an economic base. The third generation, you don’t have to worry about money so you can become an anthropologist. I have a geologist, anthropologist, businesswoman, and artist. That’s the four siblings. My brother is finishing up his PhD at Michigan State in Geology. That’s basically the story and I did my undergrad at Michigan. After that I just tooled around. I didn’t want to go right back to graduate school so I went to work for, like I said, an American branch of and English company. So I moved to London for six months then the German branch for six months where I lived in Cologne. Came back didn’t know what to do with myself so I moved, joined AmeriCore went out to Washington State and lasted about six months to doing that before coming all the way back to Ann Arbor where I eventually decided to go back to graduate school. I chose Wayne State a lot of it because it was local and a lot of it because they had somebody I wanted to work with. I wanted to work in the Caribbean. There was a professor at Wayne State that I wanted to go work with because he was an old Haitian man that did anthropology the old school way. You know, go out there on your own in some village hut. Hindsight maybe gave me the wrong idea because that’s not the way the field went these days but that’s what I did. Eventually I graduated, got a job in the honors college at Wayne State. Did that for four years then I came over here. Where I got my first visiting assistant professorship because the job market in higher academics sucks. All of the universities are getting cut. When they cut they do hiring freezes and they do all sorts of stuff so there’s just no jobs available. People keep graduating and it is just a flooded job market. So I’m pretty lucky to get this job and I am so lucky to get something in Grand Valley because I got family in Freemont. It’s about 45 or 50 minutes north of here. That’s where my mother is originally from so I got my grandmother and aunts and uncles up there so I’m really lucky to be on this side of the state. Because there was always a big fear in higher academics, it was always a big joke that you were going to end up at Arkansas agricultural and mineral college. Or moving to Miami of Ohio. It’s a nice place but there are cornfields for hours. It is in rural Ohio. It’s a big joke and that’s where you would end up or something like that. I knew a guy that took a job at the University of Alabama and he said it’s awesome until you step foot off campus and realize you’re in Alabama. He just lives on campus, that’s all. He barely leaves. He’s from New York City though so it’s a huge difference. So yeah that’s basically short life history. But really I think the experience that really made me was growing up in Detroit because Detroit is a very different place, very different place and it’s not like people think it is. Especially right now, it’s really happening in Detroit. We focus on the inner city of Detroit, which is super poor, now it’s changing. But it was super poor and all of the white flight came in. In the rankings of white flight I think were fifth. St. Louis had more white flight, Milwaukee had more white flight, and Buffalo had the most white flight. Were Detroit, were known for riots. We barely riot; we’ve had a couple. But the last one was Page 2 �in 1967. Why isn’t LA known for riots? They burned down their city like clockwork every about 25 years. And there not know for rioting. Were know for racial segregation but New York is more racial segregation than we are, Milwaukee is more racial segregation then we are. But I think what it is that Detroit built itself up to the top. Were the number one city in America like in the 20’s, 30’s and 40’s. Were known as the Paris of the western hemisphere and when you’re that high you have so far to fall and that’s why everyone focused on Detroit. But especially when it comes to civil rights. Spencer: Are there any differences between civil rights in Detroit and Grand Rapids? Professor Vannier: Civil rights in Detroit is really, really different because it’s kind of but not really the birth place of civil rights but “I Have A Dream” was given in Detroit first before Washington D.C. Malcolm X was from Detroit and Louis Farrakhan founded the first black mosque in America in Detroit. Malcolm X used to preach there. And a big reason is that it’s the end of the Underground Railroad; it’s the end of the line in Detroit. You go all the way from the South up into Detroit where you would have to hide out in all these old churches in Detroit and have all these secret passageways where they would keep slaves. And the big Mason Lodge, one of the biggest Mason Lodges in the country has all these underground secret passages. You can tour them and they say it’s where they keep slaves running away. But they would also have the slave hunter stay there too. And there’s nothing wrong with slaves eater dinner, slave hunters eating dinner and wall in between them. Because the loop hole is you swim across the river to Canada your free. And because of that Detroit has always had this strong background. One of our riots, I think the 1943 riot, we always had a strong black middle class in Detroit and we had all these southerners coming up to join the auto industry and southerners were coming up thinking they could treat blacks like they treated them in the South. And that’s what started the riot. Young guys versus young guys and these black middle class kids aren’t going to deal with that attitude and it started the whole thing. You have always seen that in Detroit and its very different. Moving out here was really different from moving from Detroit. Like just the way we organize ourselves between classes and stuff like that in Grand Rapids is super different than Detroit. I’ve never been to Grand Rapids before I came here. And my first day, I got this job and I had to find a place to live, and the first day I stepped a foot in Grand Rapids was that day that guy went crazy and shot eight people. That was that day. I was driving down the street tank fast. And I always thought it was badass to live in Detroit. Grand Rapids is tough. And I would ask people where to live, because I always thought it was nice town, and I would ask where to live and people would tell me don’t live south of Wealthy. What the hell is south of Wealthy? It’s very different than Detroit. In Detroit it’s suburb based. Ferndale is nice, anywhere in Ferndale is pretty nice but every place has it’s bad areas. Royal Oak, everywhere in Royal Oak is very nice. Birmingham, you can live anywhere in Birmingham and it’s very nice. Highland Park, don’t live there it’s not so nice. River Rouge not so nice. Then you get into the blue-collar suburbs of Taylor, Westland we call wasteland, Garden City we call garbage city. That’s just blue collar, super blue collar. Here it was different. You go three streets over and you’re in a bad neighborhood all of a sudden. How did this happen? It’s a lot more of what you would see in Brooklyn. Where super nice street, two streets over and it’s super bad. It’s way more like that here where it’s not in Detroit. Where I lived in Burkley you could walk miles and be in nice suburban land; miles and it just doesn’t change. Here it changes and it can change really quickly. I don’t know the history of Grand Rapids and I don’t know why we organize ourselves like that. Like in Detroit it’s a lot of Page 3 �racism where suburbs would guard themselves from anybody moving from Detroit in there. Dearborn is famous for it. They are famous for it for putting up rules and restrictions and all sorts of stuff that prevent black people moving in to the neighborhood. It’s not like that anymore but still to this day there are color lines and dividing lines. Like the difference from Grosse Pointe right across the street from Detroit, and it’s like $500,000 and then a crack house. But Jefferson road is that dividing line. That’s why 8 Mile is such that line. And when you look at population maps, that line is just firm. Instead now a days 8 Mile goes through the suburb of Southfield, which has become the vast gem of the black middle and upper classes. Because they have acknowledged becoming a class thing where middle class flee Detroit. It’s not really race based anymore. But Detroit is changing because it’s now the fasting growing population in Detroit. It was throughout the 80’s, 90’s and 2000’s it was the Mexican population because of Mexican town. That was the fastest growing population in Detroit. Now its young 20 something year old white people. All moving in. And you see it changing everything. All moving in. Hipsters. That’s essentially what it is. Hipsters are moving in to Detroit. And they are bringing with them hip bars and hip restaurants and you see this under-current of change happening in Detroit. Like downtown is getting nicer and nicer and mid-town now is getting nicer and nicer. Tom: But the thing about Detroit is like when you drive there I see so many abandoned buildings and the thing is if they actually want to make the city look nicer they have to do something about those. Professor Vannier: Yeah and that’s one of the great things about Detroit, they can’t. Because those abandoned buildings are owned and you just can’t. We don’t have eminent domain laws, I mean we do but they are super strong eminent domain laws. Where if the city wanted that abandoned building the city would take that abandoned building. The train station is owned by Matty Maroon. And he will not sell it so there it is. Have you ever been to Hockey Town Café? Us: Yeah. Professor Vannier: You know across 75 those tall abandoned buildings, those are owned by Mike Ilitch and he won’t sell them, that’s the end of it. Magic Johnson tried to buy them and he was going to install this huge mega complex theatre shopping mall. Nope. So it would be there and we would all be like wow Detroit is looking so nice but it’s not because Mike Ilitch refuses to sell those buildings. Tom: And that’s weird because Mike Ilitch is seen as like the guy who is saving Detroit. Professor Vannier: Yeah he does a lot but in the other hand he owns a ton of Detroit and he refuses to do anything with it. Like right by the Detroit Medical Center is the biggest medical complex in the world and Page 4 �right in front is this abandoned building. You guy anywhere across the street from the biggest medical complex in the world how much is that property worth? Us: Oh for sure a lot. Professor Vannier: But you know in Detroit whoever happens to own that won’t sell it. It’s a creepy thing. Because typically what it is its called absently landlords. Whoever owns that lives in California, hasn’t been to Detroit in thirty years and refuses to sell it. It’s a tax write off. So yeah, it’s a huge problem in Detroit but it gets that perception where you see Detroit isn’t doing anything. No, people are trying but it’s owned. Finally they sold the Madison building. The owner of Quicken Loans bought it and he is going to turn it into a luxury hotel and apartments and all this different stuff. It’s going to look really nice. Some of those buildings look gorgeous because they are all built in the teens and that old gothic architecture. It looks straight out of a Batman film or something like that. Those gold plated elevators and all that. It’s going to look super neat. He’s going to redo it all and keep that old look. But it’s different. Tyler: Could you describe your experiences coming to Western Michigan? What was it like coming from Wayne State to Grand Valley? Professor Vannier: Coming from Wayne State to Grand Valley is really different. Grand Valley sees itself as a more liberal arts institution where as Wayne State is a research one. They are one of fifty universities that are research one. It’s a huge medical school, huge engineering school and all sorts of research goes on out there. But because nobody is moving out here is that in some of the departments, even the anthropology department you get high-powered anthropology professors. The number one grant getter in anthropology is there, one of the big journals Medical Anthropology Quarterly is published right out of Wayne State. But what you see because of that is hierarchy. Like at Wayne State, even in the Anthropology department, hierarchy. Where there’s people at the top and there’s people at the bottom and I would be a person at the bottom. As in teaching, you teach when you’re told, what you’re told and how you’re told. I come here and it’s all open. Meetings are run by consensus. The chair of the department is the first among equals and that’s all he is. And he sees it that way and everyone sees it that way. They even asked me for my first semester for next fall and the scheduler down the hall came to me and was like all right when do you want to teach? And I’m not used to that question. So I’m like when do you want me to teach? And she says when do you want to teach? And I’m not used to that question. I’m used to being told what classes to teach and when to teach. So it’s really neat because it’s just so much more open and they emphasize liberal arts so much and it’s so nice. At Wayne State I have to explain to students who want to be medical doctors why knowing just what ethnicity means makes a difference. Like why am I taking an anthropology class? This is not biology, this is not chemistry. This serves me no useful function whatsoever. And it’s just hard to deal with. Here everyone gets it, here its way more open here. At Wayne State there’s that different hierarchy where there is a lot of money. The guy that used to own Arbor Drugs and now became CBS sold his company for 4 billion dollars. He is building up Wayne States pharmacy school and it’s going to be the number one pharmacy in the Midwest. It’s going to be better than Ferris. Page 5 �But they got all money. Pharmacy won’t share that, physics won’t share that. Here wealth gets spread around which makes things work. Things are new. It’s just so different and so much nicer. So a lot more goes on at Wayne State but it’s worse in a way. They hire so much more nicer and better faculty here. And how all universities work it’s not up to them, it’s up to the dean. And the dean is looking at the big picture. Spencer: Yeah, here they are really big on student evaluations I know. Like they are huge on that. Professor Vannier: Oh yeah, U of M is the worse but Wayne State they don’t do anything. It doesn’t matter how good of a teacher you are, nobody cares. It’s what research have you done and what grants have you got. That’s everything. Spencer: Yeah that’s what I heard U of M is like too. Professor Vannier: At U of M you will have the worse teacher and you will wonder how is this person teaching class? It’s because they are probably a huge grant getter. They bring that money so you don’t have to. Here they emphasize that. How good of a teacher are you? Which puts me as a visiting professor in a funky position because if I have to leave and I want to go to U of M for example, U of M is going to look at my research where as here they emphasize your teaching. There are only so many hours of the day, what are you focusing on? It’s hard. You have to have a balancing act. Professor Vannier : I’ve got to keep doing research because that’s what other universities are going to look for. But Grand Valley looks for teaching experience. I m in a weird position, its hard. Spencer: I’m sure you looked at your evaluations, I m sure they were all good. Professor Vannier: Oh yea I m not too worried about it. Its ok I did pretty good. But still you need to maintain it because the better they are the better you look. Yeah but other universities they will look at your teaching like third or fourth thing they will look at, which seems kind of weird that they would look at your research, grants, publications, whatever you have done. So that’s why I have moved towards ethnographic films. Producing films. Spencer: Oh really? Page 6 �Professor Vannier : Yeah its whole anthropological thing its one of my, the big film company that does this stuff rejected us. Its one of those things specialist of Africa. Those that aren’t specialist of Africa hate it. Its one of those things its very African. Collective: Yeah Professor Vannier: African’s themselves love it. They think like… It was just screened in Paris by another professor and all these Africans in Paris from French Africa came and she said people were crying and it reminds them of their homeland. People see it here and its like, I don’t get it. You know what I mean? Because we did the film in such a way that it was so African… So we are submitting it to one Afrocentric film company and were working on another one. But that’s the way I differentiate myself…. So when I do have to enter the job market, if I do, I got something that separates myself. We will see what happens…. So yeah it’s really different, professors, students are just very different. Obviously the diversity thing is a little whacky… My classes at Wayne State were United Nations and teaching anthropology was fun, reading a book on Islamic culture essentially, and at Wayne State, 25% of my students would be from the Middle East, if not like 30 to 35% would be Muslims. Spencer: It’s not like that here at all. Professor Vannier: yeah, so these people would know more about that I would and they would talk about it, we would watch a film on India and 15% of my students would be Indian. And you could talk about it but these guys would know more than me. There( Wayne State) you’ve got every damn ethnic group, because you have the auto industry… What is it, they uh what is that little tiny suburb that lives inside Detroit, Hamtramck!.. Is the most diverse square two miles in all of America. There are 142 ethnic groups that live in that area. I have a friend that lives there, and you look at his house, and next-door is a Ukrainian family, next-door is a Bangladeshi family. It’s different. It’s just different. Wayne State is so diverse and here not so much. Tom: Yeah definitely not Professor Vannier: Here you got the Dutch. Spencer: Yeah it doesn’t get much worse. Page 7 �Prof: It is kind of, Vie heard of professors teaching in rural Minnesota, where it just kills them because it is just so damn white. Just rural Minnesotans. So here its not so bad… but it’s a little bit different. But on the west side of the state I keep telling myself I cannot wait for summertime. Because I moved here in like fall.. I got settled in, in October. Spencer: It’s nice here in the summer. Professor Vannier: Yeah that what everyone tells me because you got the beach etc. I want to do M 22, which I see, and I never saw stickers until I got here. I saw stickers on cars that said M22 and I actually had to look it up because I was like what the hell is m22. It’s the road that goes all around the peninsula. That going to be my big thing this summer I’m actually going to do it. But I was looking at this, have you ever seen anyone discriminated in public. Oh anybody else.. yeah not really. Spencer: Yeah she had a lot of different questions that she wanted us to ask, like um , a lot of them were really easy like segregation and stuff but I was like that’s a very select group that we would have to ask that to like do you remember being involved in segregation. Tyler: It was more for like those older people who some people might be interviewing, not your age. Professor Vannier : Segregation but even in Detroit. Its , I remember growing up , a black family moved into my neighborhood, and the older neighbors were pissed. Because they didn’t do anything, but they would grumble.. there goes a nigger.. and even as a kid I thought that was kind of mean and they were just a normal family living there you know, but yeah you saw all these little changes. But you see in Detroit, its still segregated, even in Berkeley there was one black guy on my street that I know of in the neighborhood, and around the corner there was one Latino family. And the only reason I knew they were Latino was because I heard them speaking Latin.. ha not Latin , Spanish. But that’s it , its pretty white. If you go to other areas its very black, if you go to Southfield and you get other areas, I lived near uh…. Its fun to look at, Dearborn is all the Arabs, Hazel Park and Oak Park is all orthodox Jews. And its fun driving through on Saturday because they are not allowed to drive on Saturday, and you see them all walking, so yeah that’s where all the orthodox Jews are. West Bloomfield, Rochester, Rochester hills is the Indian community, all live there . North Novi is where the Japanese community lives. Which is awesome. Yeah, north Novi, you know Novi I96 and Haggerty road. Spencer: Yeah Page 8 �Professor Vannier : well you go to like 15 mile and haggerty and all you see is these Japanese restaurants. One day I was eating in a Japanese restaurant that was connected to a Karaoke bar, and I said I’m going to go check it out, and I opened the door and it was all Japanese men in business suits. And they all stop and look at me. Haha and so I closed the door, and I know when I’m not wanted. Yeah but I was eating and it was funny, there was a bunch of Japanese men, and they brought out that sakei and were just getting plastered. It was just so funny to sit there and watch. They were just feeding them alcohol and all these guy were getting drunk, it was really funny. But, you see it and you see these different ethnic restaurants, its really cool. One thing I miss moving out to uh Grand Rapids is middle-eastern food. Where I was , every gas station had middle-eastern food and there were some really good places, but out here you just can’t get it. Spencer: No not at all. Prof: I miss it so much. That nice middle-eastern kabobs and stuff like that. Tom: It’s so good. Professor Vannier: Holy crap its like 3 bucks a sandwich. Yeah and so you just don’t have it so you miss that diversity but you still see that segregation. its black and white but its going downhill now. Its going downhill , its becoming more class segregation. Where, even then its getting hard to say because people are so mixed now, like in Detroit , your seeing gentrification like where the upper class starts moving into lower class neighborhoods because we are so seeing it. Because these like young white people are moving in, and young white professionals are moving in. And its becoming hip to live down there. If I wasn’t married when I was studying in the honors college, I would have moved down there, but my wife said no way. I would have. I realize as a woman it might be different you know especially at night. And Detroit is still Detroit and you got uh like in the suburbs if you need to go to CVS at midnight, you go to CVS at midnight, but in Detroit you need to be careful about that. But it’s interesting to see how it changes because you see these different neighborhoods. There was one house sold , there is neighborhood called the Boston Edison district, in the olden days it was where all the, like Henry Ford moved there. You know. Spencer: Yeah Professor Vannier: the dodge brothers lived there, just huge mansions, but it’s in the middle of its in north Detroit. So it’s a sketchy area. There was one house that was built in like 1920 and the garage had a carwash where you park your car, get out, go in your house , hit the button , and wash your car. The ballroom, the entire floor of the ballroom was built on springs so when you dance it makes you feel like Page 9 �you are floating. Fountains, through a system was connected through the entire house so you had all these rooms that had fountains that you just turn on a button. Guess how much it sold for? Spencer: I don’t know Prof: 250 grand. Tom: Ha I was going to say a couple mil Tyler: That’s crazy Professor Vannier : Oh I Know who you see buying these houses, usually now its more like black artist, like recording artist and some sports players have moved in. John sally it was the bishop of Detroit’s house, but John Sally from the pistons you know that old 90’s , he won the championship with the bad boys? He bought it and it just turned around, now I think one of the other pistons, Ben Wallace, I think Ben Wallace owns it now. Spencer: Does he really? Professor Vannier : yeah , its something like that , where you see its just like you have the black elite and the white elite lives in West Bloomfield, like Eminem lives in West Bloomfield. Grant Hill lives in Northville where I grew up. Where I grew up I started out as like a strong white-collar auto industry suburb, but middle management, but you could really see the economy, like who’s who in the auto industry, and where they live. It started out middle management, where if you went west of our house it was dirt roads. Now its so built up its like the elite of the auto industry. Ford and GM elite high ranking people. The neighborhood just went up and up and up. Oh but yeah you really see its based more on economy and who’s who and that’s kind of the suburb you live in. The blue-collar auto industry workers are out in Westland and Grand Rapids, not Grand Rapids, Garden City and Taylor. White collar is Northville and Novi, Birmingham. The Doctors and professionals typically live in Rochester and West Bloomfield. Yeah it’s all rally weird. And Grand Rapids, it’s no like that. Not like that at all. So its very different moving out here. Ah I don’t know how I got on that topic. But this kind of thing with discrimination, one thing, I don’t even want to say it because a lot of people disagree but I have had a lot of young male professors talk about it. Not in this department at all, here its very open, very nice, nobody cares. But anthropology as a total as a whole you to like these national meetings and stuff, and Anthropology has gone feminized. At these meetings maybe its 2 to 1 female to male. You’ll go to these talks and I will be the only guy. Its all women and it really hasn’t affected me but I’ve know other young Page 10 �men who I’ve talked to amongst the young male professors. Little bit of what’s called masonry has slipped in. Where you know misogyny is hating women, masonry it hating men. Where it has just become so feminized. But you see this little masonry, male hating, moving in. And its never been me because I have been careful about what I say. But it is hyper liberal, politically. To the point where its annoying me. Spencer: Yeah Professor Vannier: But if you start saying stuff that doesn’t fit that liberalism and liberalist, you get gunned down, I mean you can get gunned down hard. And you see a little bit of discrimination, I mean its pretty funny. When people talk about that in academics, but the counter argument is, you go to one of these conferences and everyone is a liberal, you go to a conference among hedge fund managers and they’re all conservative. You know what I mean. It’s the same damn thing it just depends what field you work in. But yeah there is , I can see discrimination against, politically discrimination against like more conservative to the point where you don’t even hear of conservative anthropologist. Spencer: No Professor Vannier: very pro-capitalist anthropologist is kind of a no, no. you know what I mean? And its really weird, really different. I was at this one talk, where it was on Haiti, that’s why I was there. And this one woman was talking about how, she wasn’t saying it but it was exactly what she was talking about. These people, she was working in urban Haiti and under Duvalier the totalitarian dictator, there was a political hierarchy. And if you were like a poor person working and you needed something done and you would go to one of duvale’s lower ranking military guys and you would talk to him and you would try to get this done. If he was going to help you he would go to the next higher up, which would go to the next higher up in the chain. And they would eventually get it done if they decided to do that. Now there’s no Duvalier, it’s a perfect free democracy so there is none of that. So if you need something done what do you do? You don’t get it done and that’s the end of it. So these people are bitching like we want our dictator back. We could get things done with the dictator. And this lady was saying this at this conference, and holy crap, people were pissed. I didn’t raise my hand or say anything. After the talk I went up to her and talked to her and said I know exactly what you are talking about. But when I was there violence was bad. Well the guy that changed my money, right when I left, someone else came up and said give me all your money and just boom hit him right in the head. That never would have happened under Duvalier. Under the high point of Duvalier in like the 60s there was no crime and no crime is everywhere. if you walk down the street you can get shot. If you go walking down the street you can get kidnapped. And people would talk about under Duvalier that you follow the rules. Follow the rules and you have a perfectly peaceful happy life. Now we have all these civil rights and freedoms and you can’t even walk down the street. But still the point is that the women at the conference started saying that and it didn’t fit in that liberal you know and it was really rough. It was pretty funny. Yeah but being a young man a young male conservative in anthropology. Like I said not at the department level not here. Page 11 �Spencer: Yeah Professor Vannier: but you know these big conferences that engage the discipline, those people are for real. And even anthropology there are people studying around the world. I don’t know the exact figures what percentage at these big conferences is white people but its probably like 80 percent maybe 85 percent. So you have all these white people still talking about the poor black Africans. You know what I mean. And there’s something weird about that but anthropology knows that and we recognize it but don’t do anything about it. So its different, its been really different. And I think a lot of it comes from me growing up in Detroit where you got a lot of different ethnic families. Growing up in Detroit I think that influenced me heavily. you also have the strong class antagonisms. Where you got the union working shop people versus the might collar management people you know what I mean? And you got these strong notions, my grandfather till the day he died only went to full service gas stations Tyler: Really? Professor Vannier: Yeah because it gives a man a job that how he referred to it, it gives a man a job. You know you’re influenced by that and now its just different. Yeah but moving out here I expected it to be super conservative but its really not that I’ve seen. People say, well maybe I’m not in the right place but like Holland and Zeeland. Tom: Yeah my roommate is form Zeeland he says its like the most conservative place he has ever been. Professor Vannier: Yeah I think its like the most conservative place in Zeeland. I think McDonalds just won the right to open on Sunday like six years ago. I know because of that strong church . but yeah I haven’t really seen it, Grand Rapids has been good but I think Grand Rapids has changed with the healthcare industry. But you still see the conservatives like the Devos’s are very conservative. They give a lot of money to conservative causes. Yeah I just haven’t noticed it around here at all. But civil rights, yeah I don’t really knows how it works in Grand Rapids and Grand valley is so different because it’s no universe. Like at Wayne State you get MLK day off. It’s a big holiday there’s speeches and parades, it’s a big deal because its got that deep history in Detroit for being that end of the line for the Underground Railroad. It’s a big deal, but here not so much. There’s just not that history here you know what I mean? Tom: Yeah. Page 12 �Professor Vannier: There no connection to it. And its very recent people start moving out here but with Detroit they have had people coming in since the 1700s you know different groups and waves and migrants. That how the Arab Americans got here you know we were known for our Arab Americans running the gas stations. In Seattle it’s the Vietnamese in New York I think it’s the Indians. I don’t know. Somebody broke it down to me why that is but I don’t remember what they said, but they were distinct reasons for that. Anyways what else do you want to know? I just rambled on and on off topic. Especially since its being recorded. Spencer: No its all-good stuff, she just. We told we wanted to interview you, you know something that was moving from Detroit you know coming here but um, she wanted someone who knew the history of Grand Rapids and I’m like well that kind of hard because there are so few people that really know the history of grand rapids. Tom: Especially since you just moved here you obviously don’t have a lot of knowledge on that. Professor Vannier: Yeah I know people tell like 15 years ago it was a hellhole that’s what people have told me, but that a shock to me because in Detroit we always think Grand Rapids is a sunny and beautiful city. And I was shocked because I never knew that. I was when I came here and people said “oh god 15 years ago this place was horrible” just like people say you can’t move south of Wealthy. These different neighborhoods you don’t go to, and don’t move to. Because I didn’t know where I was going I mean I needed to find somewhere. I stuck with what they told me like north of wealthy south of 196 east of downtown and they told these specific spots you know. Like that where you want to live and don’t go anywhere else. I started checking around other areas and boy there are some rough areas out there in Grand Rapids. Some rough areas. Tyler: Yeah once you pass this one spot in downtown Grand Rapids its just straight do not go there. Professor Vannier: Yeah, over the river and south I was going through this neighborhood to look at this house we might buy and I turned around. Because it was like hills have eyes because these people were just sitting on porches giving you the look. Like outsider you are not welcome down this street. I was just like okay ill turn around I’m out of here. But yeah I don’t know how different it is in Allendale because you just have students out here. Tyler: Yeah pretty much just straight suburb. Page 13 �Professor Vannier: Yeah I was too wary like what if I rented out a house in the middle of a student neighborhood that would be kind of weird. To see my students in the morning. We could all commute together. But yeah definitely not a good idea. This kids having a huge house party next door and he invites me over, ha no I don’t think that’s really a good idea. So I live more mid town now, that’s where I found my house. We are in walking distance of downtown, its kind of nice. Right by Martha’s Vineyard. When I first moved here everyone was like Martha’s Vineyard, and it’s a party store. I was like what’s the big deal? You know there not many grocery stores where I live. It’s a different spot , Grand Rapids is very different from Detroit . Very, very different from Detroit. In Detroit anywhere is, like everything is near you but everything is far away. Takes you half an hour to get anywhere because Detroit is so huge. Here you know everything is so close together because you are right here. You know what I mean? It just a smaller city. Professor Vannier: Buts it’s nice I can’t wait for summer time; see how it works. Are there any books, articles, films, speeches, newspapers, performances that influence your thinking about race and ethnicity? Spencer: Yeah that was the question from her. Professor Vannier: Yeah in Detroit. The only thing I can tell you, what happened, when was this it? About two years ago, it really gave me such pride in the city of Detroit. Basically, you know the big thing with the Muslim community and in Detroit that’s not a big deal. No body cares in Detroit if you’re Muslim nobody cares, nobody cares, Orthodox Jew, nobody cares, you know, black white, nobody cares. As long as your working you know it’s more of a class thing you know its, nobody cares. Elsewhere in America people really care about this stuff. That woman running for senate in Nevada, we have to stop Dearborn. And all of Dearborn looked up and was like what the hell did we do? Where we come from? She was worried about Sharia Law being implemented in Dearborn so the Mayor of Dearborn, Jock O’ Riley this Irish guy, I don’t think Sharia laws going on hear lady you have to figure out. But, we always get these groups coming up here from, outsiders, coming up to Detroit and trying to cause trouble. And this one group, like that guy from Florida, you’ve ever seen that pastor with the big bushy mustache? He’s always up in Detroit, we hate so much. Because the attitude of, we can kill each other, that’s fine, no outsiders. You can’t come here and cause trouble because then we all ban together, against the outsiders. Everybody hates that pastor, you’re not going to change and he’s going to whip up the people of Detroit you know to realize that Sharia, no, no your not. We hate you. Professor Vannier: But, this one group, it was like two years ago. I m thinking of an incident that made me think about ethnicity and race and how it works in Detroit. Because of the cars, were more based on class than anything else and where you are in the industry. Blue collar, white, middle management, upper white collar. That’s more important. But, um there’s this group from Tennessee, they’re going to come up here, you know southern Tennessee, they’re going to protest Sharia law and the Muslims and shit like Page 14 �that. Um they came up, it was about two years ago, and it was on the news. They came up here and they were going to set up, they had hotels for three weeks. The first morning they were going to protest a mosque, you know and you know what their thinking, there going to intimidate you know little Muslim kids and Muslim women. But, they didn’t realize, when they got here, was that mosque, that they were going to protest at five in the morning, because the call to prayer, five in the morning, was next door to the mosque founded by, Louis Fericon, Black Muslims, who are a completely different group of people than Arab Muslims. So you had this, you know Black Muslim, you know Malcolm X, Black Muslim, its still a, the first mosque ever and that group of people I knew one of them, I knew a Black Muslim who was an archeologist and she was super cool. Her name was Allison, but um her Black Muslim name was Sultana X because they’re all X. You can just see how it works, you know Malcolm X, she was Sultana X. You give your name an X because your not taking your slave masters name, you this strong thing. The Mosque that they were protesting, you know all these white people from Tennessee show up at five in the morning while all these little Arab kids trying to get into this mosque and next door was the Black Muslim mosque. Do you think that, O my goodness, it was awesome, that these just huge, huge black dudes just come pouring out of there. Know that there was no violence, but they just got all up in their face. I remember distinctly this black Muslim woman where this one Tennessee guy like aren’t you concerned about Sharia law, right in front of one of the huge black dudes, I m going to Sharia law up your ass if you don’t get out of here. They were suppose to be here for three weeks, they lasted forty-five minutes. They went running back with their tails between their legs. And I was so happy with Detroit, do they give a crap that you are Arab and that they were black, no. And it was, it was in Hamtramck, so diverse. Where you got this Ukrainian family that was furious cause they were woken up over the whole thing at five in the morning you know I don’t know who these people are from Tennessee, go away. But it just yeah that race, that ethnicity really just didn’t matter when outsiders are involved. It matters inside where you get trouble, but it doesn’t matter outside. When outsiders come in, we all ban together, were like go away, we don’t want you here we can kill each other. Professor Vannier: Well know that I m thinking about it, I learned this while I was at Wayne State. In like the Arab-American community, ethnicity matters, there’s a hierocracy of ethnicity. I know Yeminis’ are at the bottom and their considered kind of poor backwards. In Detroit they’re considered the white trash, if I may, of the Arab community. Where you got the, there’s no Saudi, but you got the Lebanese, the Iraqi Chaldeans a more at the top, followed by the Jordanians, then the Syrians. We don’t have a lot of Iranians I don’t know how exactly it breaks down, but you have a lot of Lebanese. I knew a lot of Lebanese they’d tell me, yeah were at the bottom, and I was like how does that work. I never knew that. You know in America we like lump them all together, where they see themselves as very, very low. That ethnicity really, really matters. I go, God that’s weird, but if one of them came out here you know you wouldn’t look at them as Lebanese, their Arab-American. You know, no one would care, they belong in that big group where they get along where there’s that strong ethnic rankings, ethnic rankings. I bet if you’re from Africa it would be the same way. Where you are form Africa would matter in that population, you know what I mean. We’re all looking at them like, their African you know, but to them it’s a big deal. So it’s different, very different in Detroit. Page 15 �Professor Vannier: Detroit’s got really different race relations than other places in uh in America. It’s all the auto industry, and the factories and everyone coming over here to work in the auto industry. It’s all the auto industry. It’s more class based. Out here I don’t know how it works. Professor Vannier: I don’t know how Grand Rapids does it. I think it’s too new, like the health care industries too new. I know since I’ve been here they’ve opened up Davenport University, opened up downtown, Buffalo Wild Wings opens up this Friday, like holy crap. The Grand Rapids art fair or that art prize is a huge event. I’ve never been, being in Detroit we hear all about it you know you got to go to the art prize, what’s going on at the art prize, you got to go to the art prize, what’s going on at the art prize, you know what I mean cause it’s a huge event. And everybody’s so like you’re so lucky to move to some place like Grand Rapids, I thought God it must be a beautiful place. And I got here, a guy kills lots of people you know, its like O my God are you serious. And it was a joke when we were looking around for house, my wife and I were like were not aloud to go south of wealthy, lets go check it out. We went like two blocks in, and at one corner there was three cop cars. Maybe we shouldn’t be here and forever its burned in my mind, like don’t go south of wealthy. So it’s so weird, so weird, and just very different. Professor Vannier: Where you can go like a mile and it changes, where in Detroit you can go miles and miles and miles and it won’t change. Just suburbs’ as far as the eye can see, you know just single-family homes as far as the eye can see. It’s just suburban America, metro Detroit. But, it’s different because the auto industry, Oakland county, it was before the recession, Oakland county was the third richest county in America, behind Orange, the OC, and uh a county in Connecticut where all the hyper rich New Yorkers’ live. Boom, boom, Oakland County, and it is how we support four sports teams. You know what I mean. Where other cities can’t, we can because we have so much money. The suburbs have all the money, you know what I mean and they can support four different teams in four different buildings, the only city to do that. Four winning teams, think about it. Or if the pistons got good, where we got the Red Wings, the Tigers could go for it all this year, the Lions are starting to emerge, and we support all four teams. How do you do that? Not in New York doesn’t do that, LA has what, they don’t have football, two basketball teams, two baseball teams. And yeah we sell out our games. And its really weird, people, people don’t consider that when they look at Detroit, people don’t consider that. And its all that wealth created by the auto industry. That’s why Mitt Romney’s screwed, people are still pissed and he’s trying to twist the message, good luck dude, good luck. There still pissed at him over that. But, yeah I don’t know the history of Grand Rapids enough to know how it works. Spencer: Yeah I think that’s fine because we told her we wanted to get your side from Detroit and kind of a little bit, we knew that it wasn’t going to be like, you know how she wanted it, but she said that’s fine. Professor Vannier: You know you can always look up Grand Rapids yourself, too. But, yeah you know Detroit its all the auto industry, all the auto industry. I don’t know if I m going to get into it, but how the ghetto was created in Detroit. How Detroit became that, the way that the inner city, hard core, super big black populations. Were the blackest city in America, it’s changing, slowly, but we are. And you know Page 16 �it’s everyone coming to work in the auto industry, but you know by the time they got here the auto industry had already left. So they go down to the suburbs. There’s no jobs, no nothing, auto industry went to the suburbs because there’s more land available to build factories. All the people already working in the auto industry followed, the people coming in, were stuck. And that’s boom, where you get like that inner city poverty. And know it’s all moving back in, all coming back in. Led by again Mike Ilitch, Quicken Loans guy, Dan Gilbert that’s his name, is leading the charge. Yeah all moving back into the city, because all the suburbs are all too built up, too expensive now. It’s like a life cycle, you know it’s like a city life cycle. See the suburbs will be bad, probably within twenty years and the city will be where it’s at. Yeah so it’s all based on that and those race relations, you know where you sit in that hierarchy of the factory and stuff like that. It’s different, very, very different look. But how it’s going to change in Grand Rapids, I have no idea. Spencer: Well uh I think that’s good. Professor Vannier: Is that good? Tyler: Yeah. Professor Vannier: Did I say enough? Spencer: If we come up with anything else we’ll let you know. But, yeah I think that’s definitely good. Professor Vannier: Yeah if you come up with any other questions let me know. I love talking about this stuff. I taught a class on it. That’s why I know so much about it. I know enough there and it just drives me nuts when people just hate on Detroit. And it’s just like do you realize we invented the middle class. We invented unions, we invented all of that. First, stop light, first paved roads. You know first sold foundation, black middle class was in Detroit. All so much came out of Detroit that people just don’t recognize. I mean it all started here. And you see so many people from Detroit, Malcolm X, Madonna, The White Stripes have moved back. Who just moved in that they were talking about on the news, you ever heard of the band Flocking Molly? Why the hell they came to Detroit I have no idea, but the two main members just moved into Detroit. Moved into those neighborhoods, they moved into Palmer Woods, which is a different area. But, those super hyper rich houses in the middle of kind of a bad area, they just moved there. Why, have no idea, but that’s where they live know. I think its because theirs such an emerging uh artist community in Detroit. Where you got artist film makers know, you got all sorts of stuff going on and its all underground. Super underground, but it’ll emerge, it’ll emerge, where know you got like big, like right now the Detroit Fashion Show. It’s not very big, but a lot of fashion designers are starting to get involved because they’re seeing in like ten years Detroit Fashion Show might be where it’s Page 17 �at. So you see that like people are trying to get in now, you know what I mean. Cause they just see, New York will always be king, always be king, but Detroit’s going to matter in a little bit. We got all these different things happening. So it’s cool. You should go there sometime. Check out the different restaurants. Tom: Yeah I mean I’ve been to Detroit a few times, several times, but sporting events mostly. Professor Vannier: Yeah and it’s weird amongst the older generations you still see the segregation were uh you see uh people that were born and raised two miles from the city have never stepped foot in it because its just an evil awful place, you know what I mean. You got though, because you know we still were one of the most racially segregated places and we went through a lot of battles and how to you know keeping people out from moving into the suburbs. But, know it’s much, much less now. But, those older generations still see it, still just hate Detroit, you know you grew up in like Royal Oak, you know what I mean, you live three miles from the city even though will never come back, never ever, ever go back because they see it’s that culture of terror. Your going to get shot the second you step foot, no your not, there’s nobody there. You know not enough people to shoot you. So yeah you still see it, so still I don’t want to make it sound like it’s all class based theirs still a lot of racism, but it’s usually mostly older generations. Amongst the younger generations that grew up there go to Detroit all the time. That’s who is moving in. Yeah so you see it changing amongst generations, but interesting stuff. You can check it out. Tom: Like I’ve been to like uh, Greek town I have dinner there, go to a Red Wings game and then. Professor Vannier: Go to Slows Barbeque down Michigan Avenue. Best restaurant in all of Detroit. Best restaurant there. They just opened another one by Wayne State. Right now its mid town is really happening now where Mo cat is, the DIA is there, Wayne State’s there, because they just built dorms for the first time. So now you got students living there and once you have students living there businesses are going to follow. And they are, your starting to see bars opening up you know. More stuff just geared towards like young twenty something people. Starting to open up and what’s that going to cause. More twenty something’s to move in there, which cause what, more businesses to start and that’s where the whole thing goes. Whole thing heads that direction, you’re seeing it starting to go that direction. Yeah I wonder where they’re going to build the new Joe Louis Arena? They still won’t say and it just might be rumors. Either across from hockey town that’s why he owns those buildings, tear them down, build the new Joe Louis Arena there or where Tiger Stadium used to stand. Tom: The thing is I love where Joe Louis is right now right on the river there. I think it’s awesome. Page 18 �Professor Vannier: Yeah, yeah it makes perfect sense for him. It doesn’t make sense for Detroit cause that river front property is solid property. You could build condos there, overlooking the river. Restaurants and bars overlooking the river, that money, right now we got this stadium sitting right there, you know what I mean. It makes perfect sense for Mike, doesn’t make sense for the city. And what, what he probably will do, he’s not saying I imagine he will do it himself. Where he’ll move Joe Louis somewhere else, tear down the original Joe Louis Arena and build his own, high rise condos, you know what I mean. He’ll make a fortune, he’ll make a fortune off of that and it’s good for him, I mean it’ll be good for Detroit too good for him. But, I know a lot of people that live in Detroit that hate Mike Ilitch, hate Mike Ilitch. But, the big evil guys mad in the room, he owns the bridge, too. He’s the antichrist of Detroit, people hate his guts, owns the train station won’t do anything with it. We threatened him with eminent domain so he said he’s going to fix it up so he took like one side of it and fixed the windows. I fixed it up. There you go. That’s the game we play with Mattie. He lives in Texas, multi-billionaire, lives in Texas. Evil, evil, person and he’s blocking the bridge, the new bridge. Rick Snyder wants the new bridge, all the auto companies want the new bridge, what seems to be the problem here you know. Nope, nope, but O well its good stuff. If you got anymore questions just email me or stop in. END OF INTERVIEW Page 19 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2a1f2341cf08036b1f4efb4f666bd326.mp3 43c028502c40c77ee9b41e3399f2b211 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Vannier_Christian Title A name given to the resource Christian Vannier audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Vannier, Christian Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Spencer Tom Description An account of the resource Christian Vannier discusses the civil rights differences between western and eastern Michigan. In particular, he draws on his experiences at Wayne State University and Grand Valley State University. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-15 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fae970e8fd5f11c8d151c77c3e7c7d7a.pdf 3c777a99a839530b241ef1d468f7ab53 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Kristine Skippergosh Interviewers: Alyssa Rogers, Cailie Johnson, Stephanie Johnson and Lyndsay Rhenshaw Supervising Faculty: Liberal Studies Department Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 4/2/2012 Runtime: 01:04:51 Biography and Description Kristine Skippergosh is a junior at Grand Valley State University. She is of Native American descent and her father works for the city of Wyoming in Michigan. She discussed the difficulties she faced regarding race in her early years. Transcript (Talking at beginning of interview between Kristy and interviewer) Kristy: We could always do it on my computer...I don’t know how...I have a mac and it has like the recorder program Interviewer: Oh right Interviewer: See but it’s got like the time thing... Kristy: But I don’t know how work it (laughing). Interviewer: I think we’ll just give this a go. I appreciate it though. So are we gonna get started here? Alright, well my name is Cailie Johnson. I am here today with Kristy...uh Skippergosh (laughing). Yes, uh... we’re here to talk about your experiences with civil rights in western Michigan. So, if you don’t mind we’re just gonna start broad, you know, what was your childhood like? Kristy: Umm, well I grew up in Grand Rapids. Umm I have 3 brothers, two older and one younger...grew up with both my parents. Umm, not too exciting I guess (laughing). Interviewer: Noooo? (laughing) Are there any like childhood memories, you would say, that you think fondly of? Kristy: Umm, I definitely love to play outside as a child. I was big into playing in the dirt and...wrestling around with my brothers outside (laughing). I was always hanging out with the boys, and doing that kind of stuff so... Interviewer: Alright, very good, if you don’t mind we are just going to jump right into, umm was there a particular moment either growing up or you know in your adulthood that you felt different or that you were treated different? If you don’t mind talking about you know who your Page 1 �identity, and that kind of thing. Kristy: Yep, umm...I think actually the biggest moment and I remember it so specifically was when I was in third grade, we were like learning about culture and like different ethnicities and things like that, and we had this big like, I guess it was throughout the entire third grade, a big project, where we had to choose our primary, umm...I guess...ethnicity or like orientation. And we would get a picture of someone like traditionally dressed from that country or wherever it was and you had to like decorate it and they were all hung in the hall. Well, I was the only Native American...out of all of the kids. I mean there were was three third grade classes of like almost 30 kids each so like probably around 90 kids and I was the only one that was like, I never really...thought about it before. Like I knew I was somewhat different but...I didn’t realize I was completely different from everyone else and it was kind of like a big deal I guess...so. Interviewer: How would you describe like the neighborhood where you grew up? You know like was there a lot of diversity? You said you were the only one in your class... Kristy: Umm...I would say it was primarily white, I mean a few, like a few Mexicans, or Hispanic families lived in the neighborhood and a couple of black families, but...as far as I know we were the only Native American family, so... Interviewer: Now did your parents bring you up in the traditions of Native Americans? Kristy: Umm...My dad like he doesn’t know a ton, but like what he knows we always talked about and he’s explained a lot of different things to me. Umm...he’s actually 100% Native American, my mom’s not at all. Umm...so like there have been little things we’ve always gone to powwows all my life. So that was always a big thing like in the summer, going to powwows and stuff like that...so Interviewer: Can you describe those powwows a little bit more? Kristy: Uh yea. Umm...it’s just kind of like a big gathering, umm anyone’s welcome. They have 2 here in Grand Rapids I believe. There is one the spring and one in the fall. Umm...and there’s like a big circle in the middle where there’s traditional dancing and traditional tribal music. Umm...and like it’s kind of...a cliché thing that people say, but they actually do it, they dance to the beat of the drum, Umm that’s like a big tradition and then set up all around it are...a bunch of like...I always call them trading stations, there are like people like make a bunch of homemade stuff and you just walk around to each of the little stands and you can buy whatever they’re selling so. There’s jewelry, and like picture frames, and shirts and all sorts of stuff so... Interviewer: Ok, now did your dad encourage you to learn more about your heritage would you say? Was he, you know, was he willing to teach you, that kind of thing, like share stories? Kristy: Umm...yea he’s always I guess...his stories aren’t exactly the happiest. But like he’s always told me stories about like of growing up. He grew up in northern Michigan umm...on tribal land. So...he’s always been more than willing to talk about that. Umm...like I said, we don’t practice too many traditions really...umm...like very few things, like at funerals, there are minor things that we do different or like on top of a regular funeral and at weddings, but that’s about it. Interviewer: Ok, are there a couple stories that stuck out to you that your dad’s told you over the years? Page 2 �Kristy: Umm...well I guess it was like a big part of his life when he was...either 8 or 9 years old, around then. Umm he’s one of the youngest of seven kids. Umm his mom died, and...she was in a car accident and ended up drowning in the lake. Umm all of the kids who were younger were put in foster care. And my oldest aunt at the time was I believe 20 and umm...the government had said that my dad, or my grandpa was unfit to take care of the kids by himself because he wouldn’t be able to provide enough income to feed them. But my grandma didn’t have a job, which was kind of interesting, so she never worked, so he was always the sole provider. Umm...and my aunt also offered to take care of the younger kids...and they said that that wasn’t allowed. So the ones who were young enough were put in foster care and the other ones were allowed to...go on their own...so Interviewer: Wow...now do you think there was any kind of discrimination in there at all? Kristy: Umm...yea definitely...umm.. at that time...it was in...the early 60’s. Umm...there were a lot of like civil rights movements with Native Americans all over the country. And...that was when our tribal police department was first like...making its stand I guess, up there, and they were making their post and...umm... tribal police are not under the jurisdiction of any other government officials. Umm...they have all say when it comes to tribal members...umm... so if you’re, if you’re a tribal member and you’re pulled over up there you can demand tribal police and...the state cops or whoever it is can do nothing more. So...no matter what the, unless it’s a felony that is committed, the tribal police have all the say...so.. Interviewer: Wow Kristy: Um huh, so that was kind of a really big deal, and there were a lot of...people mad about it I guess...so Interviewer: So what happened to your dad after this whole you know, rearrangement? Kristy: Umm...he was in foster care until he was 13...umm...all of the kids are about 2 years apart...so there’s one younger than him and then one older than him and they were for the most part together...all of the time. Umm...I believe at first they were split up for a while...until they could find a family that would take all three, but I guess it was hard to, which I believe it is still hard to find families who will take multiple children. Umm...most of the families that he stayed with were, umm on farms, and they had to do a lot of like the farm work and stuff, so that was always their chores and they couldn’t do anything until that was done and...things like that so... Interviewer: Right so did he eventually get placed into a permanent... Kristy: Umm...once he was 13 he was able to go back to live with my grandpa so, I’m not sure how long they stayed at the other homes. It, so it seems they kind of bounced around a lot so. Interviewer: Ok, and then he spent the rest of his...13 on up on the reservation right? Kristy: Yep, well it’s tribal land, it’s not actually the reservation...but um he grew up in Charlevoix and most of the land up there is tribal land so... Interviewer: Alright...now we’ll kind of get a little bit broader for a second and then maybe get a little more narrow, but how would you say, you know with hearing some of the stories from your father, and thinking about you know nowadays, how would you say Native American treatment has changed? You know when you hear your dad’s stories and when you think about how you grew up. Page 3 �Kristy: Umm...I think it’s definitely much different, I think it’s much more accepted. Umm...I’ve really never run into major problems. Umm...like my dad’s talked about, like, the problems have followed him all the way through school and high school. There were only allowed to be 2 Native Americans on the like sports team at a time. And he talked about there was one time, I believe it was his junior or senior year in high school there was a 3rd kid on the varsity basketball team and...the three of them were sat down and told one of them had to leave...because it wasn’t allowed. Umm..so I mean I never really experienced...anything significant...umm...I think more people seem, I guess, excited about it. Like I, all the time, people tell me they’ve never met anyone who is Native American before so...umm... I also...freshman year here...I had kind of an...I would say it was enlightening. I met an international student from Spain...and...in Spain they’re taught that Native Americans no longer exist...they were all killed off in the wars. And he did not believe that I was Native American, like it couldn’t be possible, they don’t exist anymore...It was kind of a frustrating situation to try to explain to him that I was Native American and he was very adamant about it, that it was absolutely was not possible, there is no way. And so that was...kind of interesting. I mean I had no idea but, umm as far as I know most European countries teach students that all of the Native Americans died off in the wars...so... Interviewer: That’s crazy. Kind of going off that like, has there been times, you know, we’re learning in class about the whole pilgrim thing, you know Kristy: Um hum Interviewer: Like the disparities and what actually happened and what we’re taught. Kristy: Um hum Interviewer: Did you grow up, you know, hearing about this Thanksgiving, and going home and having you know, your father go “what”? Kristy: Actually, see my dad’s never really like corrected any of that. I mean we do a, you know traditional Thanksgiving dinner like everyone else you know, tons of food and stuff. And I actually did not learn until I was in college what the real Thanksgiving was like. And I was, I was kind of shocked and...I almost thought like...I feel like it’s kinda funny that my dad still like...he loves Thanksgiving...he looks forward to it every year (laughing). It’s just, it seems kind of ironic...I mean I’m sure he must know...what happened...but...I don’t know it just...it seems so weird to me that like we would still celebrate it. I mean all of our, every now and then the entire family will get together, as many people as we can and...we all love it so (laughing)...why not? Interviewer: Right...I know we’re talking about Thanksgiving and you said some funerals are different...are there any other customs that you can think about that your family has celebrated differently then maybe we may have? Kristy: Umm.......not in particular. Umm...I think a lot like with like...I guess the ceremonies, like funerals and weddings. It may be a little bit different for my family specifically. One of my uncles is a, umm he was a pastor at a Native American church. So he knows a lot of like the prayers and stuff, in our native language. So we do, like we...say those. I’m, I don’t, I guess he says them. Umm...he’ll go through like different...speech type things in the native language at both. Umm...and at funerals...umm...I guess it depends on the time of year...umm....but we will Page 4 �have, you burn a fire for three days...like a, like a bonfire type of thing, and it has to burn for three days straight, and someone always has to be there watching it and it’s supposed to be like the family elders. Umm...and then on the final day you have a family meal together... and the first plate prepared is for the person who died. And everyone eats, and then the plate for the person who died goes in the fire, and then the fire is...put out with water...so Interviewer: That is really interesting Kristy: Mm hmm Interviewer: That is...So how would you um you know has your growing older learning more about your heritage how would you say you developed kind of take us from you said you were in 3rd grade your finding out you native America to today when your finding out the real thanksgiving you know kind of that transition? Kristy: Yea um I defiantly like I feel like I was very sheltered from the real situations that had happened um I guess I didn’t realize it was as hard for as many people as it was like I had always known that it was like difficult growing up as a native American you know before and like now the more I learn about it the more I almost like feel bad that I hadn’t known before like I just thought everything was fine and not that big of a deal and um like known I’ve learned about a lot of the reservations especially out west there are some of them that are like 80 to 90 percent unemployed. And um Indians reservations are considered um there own nation so the federal government can only intervene when there ids a felony committed so they don’t have to provide assistance to people they don’t have to provide food stamps or welfare or anything g like that at all they don’t have to provide schools they don’t have to provide anything so it defiantly the more I learn the more I think of it differently Interview: So going back to kind off your dads family dynamic and where you come from now you said the siblings were scattered what’s that like now were they able to kind of you know come back together? Kristy: Um yes and no um a couple of the older ones actually they went first to Chicago and one stayed in Chicago and the two other ones went to Arizona and um one of my uncles who was in Chicago he passed away about 4 years ago now and before that I believe it was close to 20 years before they had…. um all taken a picture together and that’s the last time they had all been together, all 7 of them. Otherwise like they had seen each other periodically and sometimes like 4 or 5 would be together but never all 7. So I mean they keep in touch they talk a lot, my dad’s really close to, um the ones who are still in Michigan, especially um my uncle and aunt who he was in the foster homes with. And then one of, it’s my oldest uncle, he actually stayed up north when the younger ones were put in foster care to make sure that they were okay so and after I believe it was once my dad was in high school then he went into the navy but like he made sure to stick around to make sure everything was okay and he still kind of makes sure everyone everywhere is okay so. Interviewer: Sounds like there is a real sense of like family. Kristy: Mmmhm Interviewer: Do you get that form Native American culture? Kristy: Yea. Yes. Definitely. Yup, I mean there’s still like in our family and there are a few Page 5 �people who keep their distance but we have a very large family. Interviewer: All right well if we kind of go broad again um talking about a big question I had was about media in the society. You know growing up in the age we have how do you feel like the Native American cultures been portrayed good bad that kind of thing? Kristy: Umm I guess I’ve I haven’t seen too much in the media but I think a lot of like there are some people that I've run into who do see it like see a lot of bad things. Like I’ve had negative comments about like the whole casino thing and like all the money that you lose go back to our pockets and a few people have made like rude comments about it. But um and then like there still like with the whole affirmative action type of thing and like even with that being gone um do to like the treaties that were signed whenever they were signed the government still has to pay for our school and nothing can like break that. So I feel like some people have resentment towards it like I have run into people who have made like they just mean things about it I guess but I guess I don’t really care.(Laughing) Interviewer: Right Kristy: So um but yea otherwise like I don’t really see too much in the media um maybe the biggest thing is often which it’s not exactly untrue but Native Americans are seen as like having alcoholism and like problems with alcohol but the statistics do show that it is true .I mean so, its I guess ,it’s just difficult that that’s all that’s ever shown and like unemployment and stuff like that so but I mean I feel like it’s no different than any other society with poverty. Interviewer: Now have you or maybe your dad um connected I guess like with a community you know advocate anything you know that kind of is he a part of any groups would you say? Kristy: Not really um but he’s definitely willing to stand up for himself. Like he does not take anything um about 10 years ago he sued the city of Wyoming for a civil rights lawsuit um he was and I don’t know all of the details but he was discriminated against and he um got a lawyer and a civil rights has to be approved by the state in order for it to go to court and it was approved and he won so I mean he’s just he won't take it from anyone at all um I know in school he had a hard time also like with the whole sports team thing um teachers would tell them that they would fail them in order to keep them off the sports teams and my dad played varsity basketball , football all 4 years of high school was all state all four years of high school in track um he also played baseball he played I believe he played baseball at the trade school he went to um he like he was recruited to tons of schools he was actually recruited to Harvard to play basketball after college but he didn’t want to wear a suit and ties the rest of his life so hahahah so he didn’t go um like that’s his only reasoning I guess. Interviewer: Will go with um has anyone in your life um encouraged you your dad other relatives to learn more about it? Kristy: Um my dad does in kind of subtle ways um in Northern Michigan the community college up there I'm not exactly sure what it’s called they offer language classes and my dad’s kind of like wanted me to go take them and um I believe they have 5 classes for it and um he also like he’s talked about um me working for the tribe after college because we have like there are medical staff they have like everything that I mean we have dentists and doctors and psychologists and all sorts of things and he would love for me to go up there and work for them Page 6 �but I don’t really know if that’s the place for me so um well like its mostly in subtle ways um I’ve had a few professors also like encourage me to learn more and like I kind of think it’s more of them being interested and wanting to know like through me but um yea that’s it that’s about it one of my brothers he at one point started learning some of the language quite a few years ago and wanted me to also learn it but it’s very difficult to learn especially on your own so I never really got into it I kind of wish I had but hmmmhm. Interviewer: What would you say it was like growing up you know with your dad you said being 100% Native American and what’s your mom’s nationality? Kristy: Um I believe she’s German and French. Interviewer: Oh okay so how’d they combine that I guess and raise a family? Kristy: Um I guess it wasn’t too difficult um I think the biggest problem my family had was with religion um my dad originally like before the foster homes was brought up catholic and stock with that and my mom was raised Baptist and they're very different and they could not agree at all um but otherwise I mean I would say it was very similar to anyone else I think (Laughing). Interviewer: So back to the professor you were talking about professors do you ever get this sense like you said kind of wanted information through you? Has there ever been that kind of thing were okay they need a question answered about Native Americans so hey they pick you out, have you ever felt like that? Kristy: Yes kind of um I've it’s more of like hinting at maybe I should talk to my dad about something or they would love to know what my dad thinks about something or they would love to know how my family would you know dealt with something. I mean I don’t I don’t find it offensive at all I mean most the time I haven’t thought of the question myself and then become interested in knowing but um often though I guess the professors who want to know things also usually more than I do in other aspects of it like of the culture so it’s kind of like it more personal questions rather than like broad about the culture itself like maybe how just my family has dealt with something or how they would deal with something or so instead of like actual facts about things that have happened if that makes sense (Laughing). Interviewer: Yea it does. So at grand valley do you really you know connected with other Native Americans is there any kind of group that you’re a part of? Kristy: Um I'm not a part of any groups um I only know of one other Native American kid here. I mean I know there are quite a few but I've only actually met one other person um and he actually approached me after class one day and um because I had commented on something about being Native American and so he came up to me after class and kind of asked about it and it was interesting because I really don’t know anyone else who is native American besides my family so it’s kind of its different talking to someone from like a different tribe and the different things that like they have for school and like deal with for school like he said he can’t take summer classes his tribe won’t pay for summer classes or anything like that and just like I guess the subtle differences and but yea and the only the one person I believe there I think there is a club or something a Native American club but I haven’t really looked into it so it kind of scares Page 7 �me though (Laughing) like I feel like it’s going to be like one of those native pride clubs type of things and I just hahha that’s a little bit above and beyond me. Interviewer: If you don’t mind going kind of back to your dad a second um you know you mentioned some of the things that he went through are there any other stories you know that stick out you know I'm very interested in what life was like growing up for him Kristy: Yea um lets see I know he mentioned like he told me one time about because I did I did this same interview with him when I took the class um so he had mentioned like the part about just learning you were different um and it was when he was young he would like you know the kids go play baseball or whatever well they went back to one of the other kids house to get something to drink after words and the parents told my dad he was not allowed to go into the house and he had to drink from the hose outside but all of the other boys could go inside and it was because my dad was Native American so he wasn’t allowed in the house and he like said that that’s always stuck with him which I can’t imagine how it wouldn’t um so I thought you know that was definitely interesting um he said just like little things going like in school with sports teams and stuff teachers would try as hard as they could to get them off the teams if they could and my dad actually ended up graduating um we have um the actual plaque at our house now and he graduated with honors and academics and athletics and he was the only one presented with the award I believe he was maybe second or third in his class graduating um he still holds two track records at the high school that have yet to be broken um so I mean it was, he’s definitely if you tell him he can’t do something especially because he’s Native American he’s definitely going to do it um so I mean I know he said he was worried when he moved down to Grand Rapids about getting a job because he had a hard time the reason he moved down here was because he had a hard time up north and a lot of times they would flat out tell him because he was Native American and this was in like the mid-70s so it wasn’t that big of a deal to tell someone because of your ethnicity we can’t hire you um but when he came down here he said the first job interview he had he was hired on the spot so again it’s just one of those things where you know he seems to find the good in it um but he did say that people used to um make comments when he was working he’s an electrician so he works outside and um people would often make comments about why he had the job and they didn’t and why they would let him work and wouldn’t give them the job and just comments like that but I don’t think he really cares hahaha um lets see he also talked about when he first moved down here he lived with a family friend until he could get himself established get a job make some money and get his own place um and the guy happened to also be native American and he said that he kind of like showed him around told him the bars you could and couldn’t go to um I guess if you know any sort of trouble in a bar or whatever started you know just leave right away because you they would always the Native Americans would always be arrested no matter what so it was always there fault so he knew the places he could go to the places he couldn’t go to and um but like now it’s much different so and then yea like he sued the city and so I wish I knew more about it but um I know that with the whole lawsuit a big part of it was in his because he works with traffic signals and stuff like that um he has theirs like a electricians license and there also a traffic signals license that you have to have and my dad has both but he also has an engineering license with Page 8 �electronics and they have at the city they have like a ladder of how you move up and everyone starts at the bottom everyone starts at like level one and you have to take so many classes to move up...umm...well they hired a guy right out of traded school who did not have the, all three licenses as my dad did but they put him above him and like all of their contracts say that they have to like everyone starts at the bottom no matter what...umm...I don’t know what else happened with that I don’t know what you know the details about the actual civil rights part...how he was discriminated necessarily when it came to race but...something was there (laughs)...and it worked so...umm I know during that too he said a lot of people told him you know he he shouldn’t be suing the city because they were just going to fire him but... he said he knew better because there was no way the city would fire him when he is suing them for discrimination so... which they didn’t (laughing)...so umm...umm yea...that’s about all I know for the most part..umm...I don’t think there is anything too major for trade school he went to school in... New Mexico I believe and it was a native trade school so obviously he fit right in there (laughing) so but umm yea that those were like the major things I would say Interviewer: Do you feel like he sheltered you from the civil rights law suit at all I mean how old were you, you know, kind of to paint the picture Kristy: I was, I was probably ten...so I remember it all happening I remember him having to go talk to lawyers I remember him having to go to court I remember all of it happening but and I feel like he probably did tell me but I just had no idea what any of it meant nor did I really you know at the time I probably didn’t really care it wasn’t a big deal to me I mean I was too worried about whatever else (laughing) I had going on at that age...umm...so yea I mean I remember knowing about it I remember him like having paperwork and I believe once or twice the lawyer came to our house and I remember them like having to sit down and all of that but I didn’t really know what was going on so..but yea I don’t think he so much sheltered me.. I guess...I believe I did know that it did have to do with discrimination but I don’t think I really understood what that meant exactly anyways so... Interviewer: You said that you know your dad obviously didn't put up with much with this lawsuit did that affect your upbringing did he really you know press it upon you that if you are ever put in this situation you stand up for yourself Kristy: Yes, yes that that’s always been a big deal...umm..I mean some of its come from my dad has only two sisters and there are five boys and I also have three brothers so I’ve always been taught you know you stand up for yourself no matter what...and you know you do what you have to...umm...I mean like they my dad never he didn’t like advocate for violence but he always told me like if people say anything like you know way out of line don’t be afraid to hit someone like don’t be afraid to push them down I mean like I u know at the time like I thought it was great like my dad was telling me I could do this it was awesome but like now I understand like especially seeing the things that he went through like I can’t imagine he had it easy I can’t imagine that he didn’t have to stick up for himself in that way often growing up to so...like I understand where its coming from now I never had to do any of that..umm.. I never really found it a big deal and most people like I guess you can't tell I am Native American most people don’t know I’ve only had one person ever say that I like without knowing say that I look Native Page 9 �American so...I don’t think people really it’s not as easy to tell so...I’ve never really dealt with too much I’ve never really had to deal with it..umm.. but yea he’s definitely told me to stick up for myself do whatever I have to do to stand my ground and...so..I guess I have for the most part but most things don't really bother me so I just let it go Interviewer: Right...what about your older brothers...you have two older brothers right? have they ever come across anything Kristy: Umm...I’m I’m really not too sure...umm..one of them he kind of likes to pick fights with people anyways...he’s just that kind of person like he’s just always far superior to everyone so I really I don’t know much about the actual discrimination but I’m sure..I’m sure they’ve dealt with it to an extent umm..especially because they they are quite a bit older they are 35 and 36 so...they grew up in a much different time and I feel like things were probably still worse then..so but I don’t I..I don’t know of much..umm My oldest brother...I couldn't say much about I mean he works for the tribe now so I know he’s not dealing with much anymore but...umm they both did grow up in Northern Michigan though so Interviewer: Other than the Pow Wows you talked about that are in West Michigan..are there any other kind of you know activities that maybe your family goes to are there any kind of you know awareness I guess about it in West Michigan Kristy: I, I'm really not sure...umm..in the fall I got an email from...it was from I believe the education department at our tribe and they did have umm it was like a dinner or something like a banquet type night down here it was at an elementary school to raise awareness umm..about the Native American culture to like younger kids I didn’t actually end up going which I kind of wish I had but I don’t really know much more about it so I think they’re I mean they are starting to do more they are trying to do more...umm..but otherwise yea we..there’s..we go to our tribes Pow Wow every year...umm but that’s up north..but otherwise in West Michigan all I’ve really ever done is gone to the Pow Wows and I don’t really know too much more of what they have going on...so I’m sure, I’m sure there must be stuff but I’ve never looked into it so... (silence) (Laughing) Interviewer: About your tribe...what’s the name of your tribe and you know how is it I’m new with this so how does it kind of differ from other tribes that kind of thing Kristy: My tribe is the Little Traverse Bay Band of Odawa Indians...umm in all honesty I don’t really know much about how tribes differ umm..the only thing I know is like with money how much money they put out and what I learned with the kid who I met here about how they go about their like the education department how that works umm... but otherwise... I don’t know too much more umm...I really don’t even know too much about what goes on within my tribe only the things that my dad complains about and stuff like that (laughing) so that’s about all I know about the things that they are doing wrong and umm...I mean they ultimately they we have all different departments and like there's an education department they have umm...what is it called..maybe natural resources or something like that I don’t ... it's something strange you wouldn’t think it has all different things but they have umm that’s where they like take care of hunting and fishing licenses...if you are part of the tribe you can hunt and fish like extended times during the year...like my dad’s hunting license starts in September instead of November or Page 10 �whatever it is I don’t know when hunting season starts but he can umm..he can gun hunt starting early September umm.. it has to be north of the Grand River and West of something umm not exactly sure where that middle line is umm..and then with umm...fishing he doesn’t have to like go get a license to fish it’s on the back of his tribal card and with hunting too they send him like the deer tags or however that works and he can get as many as he wants umm which I don’t know much about hunting but apparently that’s great if you're a hunter umm.. (laughing)...I don’t know too much about it my dad doesn't really say much about it I can’t remember the last time he has even come home with a deer it’s been years so...I don't... I don't know too much apparently that that’s just awesome if you can get unlimited hunting tags and... if your already like your fishing license is ready and available all the time I don’t really know (laughing) about that umm...let's see we have our casino that we run umm...most tribes have their own casino and most of like the bigger ones especially if they have a bigger casino they also have a hotel or a resort with it...umm ours is slightly smaller... a tribe that we affiliate with is umm...The Grand Traverse Bay Band of Odawa Indians and they are in Traverse City umm...their casino is huge they have an amazing golf course they have all sorts of really really fancy things that we don't have but...umm let’s see we have an elder program umm...you are considered a tribal elder...at 55 umm..they provide all sorts of assistance for anything you need umm...you can send if you hang on to like grocery receipts you send them up at the end of the year and they reimburse you.. for like 500 dollars or something towards groceries umm we...as a tribal elder you have free all dental work whether it just be regular cleanings or cosmetic..umm...free doctor visits they provide healthcare if you need it umm...what else...then there is the education department they take care of like scholarships for college and you can also get umm scholarships during high school too..umm...for like private schools and stuff they'll give you money to go there umm...I don't really know much about that...umm...what else...they at the tribe they hold a lot of different umm they have like a breakfast for elders daily...umm...they have housing assistance they have employment assistance umm...pretty much any if especially if you are within the tribe they will hire you right away to work there just to make sure that you have a job and you are getting money and stuff so...umm...I'm not really sure what else they have.. again I don't really look into I only look into the things that like my family you know whether my dad uses it or utilizes it or the things that I need so.. Interviewer: Okay what would you say you know are some normal things that your dad you know just things that you know is he at the tribe...how many times a year like that kind of thing Kristy: Umm well one of my uncles still lives in Charlevoix and my oldest brother lives in Boyne Falls and our actual tribe is in Harbor Springs which is right there I don't know if you guys know the area very well but it’s all there all together up there umm the casino and resort is in Petoskey so everything's like in that area...umm..we try to go up there a few times a year if not more umm...we go up every summer we have a family reunion..umm...during the summer my uncle’s house and whoever can make it makes it..umm and we usually try to schedule that around the Pow Wow so everyone can go to that too umm...but every time we are up there I feel like we go to the tribe I don’t really know what we are doing there half the time my dad I mean everything like any forms cause everything you have to fill out a form for and most of the forms Page 11 �are just sign your name and send up there and it’s not a big deal well...my dad doesn’t trust the mail or something I don’t know we have to bring every form there personally to make sure everything is like handed in set and ready to go so...we're always doing that I...were always there doing who knows what half the time he's harassing people that he knows there (laughing)so...most the trips are pointless but usually a few times a year I would say at least three or four times a year if not more... so Interviewer: Are there any moments when you were you know on the reservation kind of growing up any things that stuck out in your mind things that happened within the tribe and... Kristy: Umm... (pause)...not really umm again I don't really know too much about what's going on umm I do know right now and its its now a concern just because I know more about more things I guess and umm...but we're losing a lot of money we the tribe decided a few years back to build a new casino and we already had a casino that was perfectly fine but they wanted to build a bigger and better one..and apparently we did not quite have the money for that...so that was a problem but they thought if they built a bigger casino that was better it would attract more people and they would quickly make money off of it... well they're not and they're not I mean I, I guess not very many people win it's hard to win there so...people don't really like to go there as much so it's kind of like backfiring umm..and...there's a board at the tribe umm so there's like the president, the vice president, the secretary and all like the typical board and they umm...we hold elections every couple years or something for that well they keep electing people and then... they...fire them or kick them off the board but it's actually more expensive to kick them off the board and then bring someone new in. I don’t know how that works exactly, but apparently it is tons of money to do that, so my dad is always complaining about it and just thinks they are all idiots apparently and I am sure he would much rather run the tribe himself because he always has better ideas than them. umm, but I guess it is a little concerning, especially because the tribal money is for people who need the assistance. It is the elders and all the tribes’ money, it is not government money, so they have to provide their own funds to give these people the money that they need. And there are tons of people that don’t have houses and they need this assistance for housing and all of that and I guess it is kind of concerning that we are slowly running out of money. We have no idea how we are going to get the money back because we keep kicking people out for doing the wrong things but it costs us even more money to do that. Again like I said, I don’t really know how that works but my dad and uncles will talk about it and how mad they are about it and how we are just wasting money. Apparently the tribe keeps buying more land up there which they buy it, but they won’t do anything with it, it is just there. Like there are tons of land in northern Michigan that we own we have no money to do anything with it because we keep buying more and using up all the money. so I think it is kind of concerning to know that all this money is slipping away so.. Interviewer: You talked about the drinking problems the tribe faces and the statistics are there like you said, have you noticed if, you know within your tribe if that issue has been addressed? Kristy: umm, I think it is more or less not in my immediate family as much, but in my family. like I mentioned, I have a really big family. I believe there are 41 first cousins. umm.. I think we are definitely the smallest family with 4. One of my cousins has 10 kids. Umm..(pause) I have Page 12 �cousins who have children who are older than me. So..(laughter) There are so many people but just half of them can’t seem to get it together. umm..like one of them, she just recently, well I guess, this past summer she was arrested for her 3rd DUI. She thinks it is stupid that she won’t be eligible for her driver’s license until 2013, like this horrible judge won’t give her her license back (laughter). Umm.. I mean half of them they just can’t keep jobs and it is for stupid things like not showing up for work and that same cousin, she has been fired and rehired at our tribe 3 times...twice was for drinking on the job. So, like they will give you a job no matter what, like you get caught twice drinking on the job and they are still going to give you a job. But, she got fired again for not showing up and being late too much, like they have an attendance policy if you work for them and there aren’t any exceptions and she can’t seem to keep a job, she is only 25 and umm..another cousin is a year older than me, he failed out of his first semester, or first year at the community college up there and he was taking guitar class, pottery class, something else which... he has been playing the guitar for years, he has a bass guitar, acoustic guitar. He knows how to play the guitar, but he failed out of the class. So, now he has to pay back the tribe for his money because he failed out of classes, they are not going to keep giving you money to go to school. So, he now has to pay the tribe back, he has also been fired from the tribe. Umm..a couple of them are.. couple of my cousins are in jail..umm, so it is just like you know the stigmas are there about Native Americans but .. I mean, the stereotypes are true you know if you fit that, if you continue to you know act on this then of course it is going to be there. So you know, I hate having negative stereotypes but like I look at my family and they are all doing it. They can’t keep jobs you know they aren’t going to school, they are constantly in trouble, it is just kind of sad but I think it is more, I guess, it almost makes me mad that they do this. I just think it is so stupid, like I think a lot of them chose the unemployment, of course if you don’t show up for work you are going to unemployed. You can’t expect to show up whenever you want and keep your job. It is..it just sucks and I know some people aren’t choosing it but.. a lot of them are. A lot of them are just lazy. Interviewer: Do you think it really is just laziness or do you think there is a larger problems? Is the tribe too lenient? Kristy: I don’t know if it is too lenient. I think a big thing is that the tribe wants to get rid of the stereotypes and wants to get rid of the statistics and wants to have the most employed that they can, and will get as many employed as they can, they will. And you know, like I said they will hire you back as many times, just so that you are employed so you do have money, like they don’t want people to be on the streets or anything like that but...I also feel like maybe if they didn’t hire people back maybe it would be a wake-up call but..I don’t see that happening because it is more important to them to have people employed so people can feed their family but, it is still just, it’s like a lose, lose situation. No one, you know, you can’t win either way so.. Interviewer: Do you see this problem, you know, like you said, they are trying to work on it but do you honestly see these statistics and stereotypes changing, getting better? K: umm... not really. Uh, like with our tribe it’s not as bad, the statistics on our reservations, not nearly as bad, like the unemployment rates are probably not any worse that like the regular ones umm but there are some of them out West, there are, I think the biggest one it is called Rosebud. Page 13 �I am not sure of the exact percentage, but it is somewhere between 70 and 90 percent unemployed. Like I said, the government doesn’t have to help, so they don’t. And they don’t have to give them money or like, let them go to school. Like the schools, I saw a documentary on them, the schools are literally falling apart. And of course on the reservation they don’t have don’t have money because everyone is unemployed, so they have no way to fix up the school and the government won’t do anything about it because they don’t have to because it is not their duty. So in some places it is much worse and I don’t see it changing because... I mean, especially with just regular statistics, like with how many people are unemployed, like it is a problem right now and the economy is a problem right now too. If they are not doing as much to help everyone else why would they bother there too? Where they don’t have to. By law they don’t have to, so why would they, you know, I feel like it’s logical but not ethical. But it’s logical, I mean why would you put your money where you don’t have to? Soo.. Interviewer: Wrap up question, now looking forward, umm I know you mentioned going back to the reservation as a possibility, how do you see if you choose to go back, you know would you bring up your kids Native Americans? What kind of life do you hope they have? How much do you want them to know about their culture? Kristy: umm..I like, they don’t plan much on doing anything much different from any other family, but I would definitely like them to know. Like, I wish i would’ve known a little more about what my dad went through. Even when I was younger, I wish I knew. I always knew that they lived in foster homes and I knew it was because my grandma passed away, but I didn’t know all the details. I would hope that I can teach them that there were a lot of bad things that happened and that you know, even my dad went through these things but I wouldn’t want them to grow up feeling like.. being Native American like they, what’s the word...like I don’t want, I wouldn’t want them to think that people should treat them different, like they should be treated differently because you know, they are Native Americans and Native Americans went through horrible things. I wouldn’t want them to think that, like I would want them to feel like everyone else. There are not going through it, well i hope they wouldn’t be going through it. Like I didn’t go through anything. So, I mean I don’t feel like anyone should treat me different, I don’t feel like I should have better treatment just because people in the past went through bad things. I think just a regular upbringing but know what’s happened and, like be educated and understand that it happened but..move on from it, I guess. Interviewer: Alright, well, um we can also talk back to the whole government assistance thing, what do you think should happen and what do you hope happens? Should the government be helping out your tribe? K: Umm, I mean, I feel like they are ok for now umm..but I definitely think more should be done for other tribes like, I mean, just even above 50% unemployment, like that is so sad. And, like the documentary that I watched I guess it was a 20/20 special so it was on ABC or whatever the local channel was...Diane Sawyer, or whatever, i believe that’s who it was...she went to the reservation and umm was talking to some of the children and there are kids there who are like 10 or 11,12 drinking, like actually drinking on a daily basis, like there are many of them. It is not uncommon to have an alcohol problem and to have an alcohol problem by the age of 16. Maybe Page 14 �3 or 4 kids graduate from high school a year, maybe.. a lot of them die very young, just from health issues in general because they are drinking so much and things like that. They have a much higher rate of umm..like death from car accidents specifically because people drink and drive umm..what was the question(laughter)? Interviewer: just about the government... Kristy: Oh yeah, like I think in places like that more needs to be done, like I don’t think that is acceptable at all, umm not just because it’s, on a Native American reservation but just because it is any society. I mean, I don’t believe, the government would let any other society, like if it was Grand Rapids, they wouldn’t let the unemployment be that high, they would not let, you know something would be done to stop it. You know, just because they don’t have to, they don’t. I think that, I don’t think that everyone needs to be employed, but I think the unemployment rate should be the same all the way around. I mean, there are people who can’t feed their children, I think children need to fed like whether, whatever the adults are doing, that’s whatever, if they want to have drinking problems, the government doesn’t do much. You have to be willing to get the help, but I think, especially the children, every child deserves to have an education and go to school. I really wish that the “No Child Left Behind Act” or whatever, well that doesn’t apply there. So, that’s when kids don’t graduate because they don’t have, like most schools don’t have any computers at all. Uh, they don’t have, if they have textbooks, they are from like the 70s and 80s that they have just kept, they don’t have the money to get anything new. Everything that they could be learning, it probably isn’t useful or relevant anymore. So, it just, I don’t understand especially with children how they can just let it go, I mean obviously you aren’t doing anything for the children, nothing is ever going to get better because children become adults some day and still do not have an education. I still wish it could be like equal all around so...but I don’t know if it will happen. Interviewer: Is there anything else you would like to tell us about? Kristy: I don’t think so, I mean if there are any other, like last questions anyone else has? Interviewer: I guess the only other question I had, was umm, in class we discussed how kids sometimes, they keep things that have happened in the past, like especially in history like kind of like sugar coated, is the best word I can put and I just wonder, like what your input would be? like, should we let kids get taught the real thing like what they real thanksgiving was about like, you know what I mean? Kristy: Umm, I definitely think it should be a little bit more fact based, I mean, I definitely, like, I said, just learned that you know, for the real thanksgiving everyone ate together and then they killed all the Indians afterwards, like I had no idea, like I have always thought of thanksgiving as like the Indians and the pilgrims came together and everyone ate and it was a great time and everyone was happy afterwards...and I had no idea like how it was, and I think that, i mean especially like being Native American, it was like shocking to learn, like this is what I have always been taught, but this is what really happened so, I think people should know more along the lines. I mean not, I don’t think we should teach like the horrible things to young children, I mean, you don’t need them to have nightmares, but I don’t think it should be so much you know Happy Thanksgiving everyone was happy afterwards, I mean, like I know in school they didn’t Page 15 �exactly say that, but you can assume, if they all came together and had this great dinner together and everyone got along then everyone got along afterwards. I think things are left out and I think some of the details should be included and I think it should be a little less sugar coated maybe not you know completely like blunt facts but a little less. END OF INTERVIEW Page 16 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5b0f7f8dce30aca9f0ea71144db1bb91.mp3 10555297b4c32a1b47d5c396113a9359 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Skippergosh_Kristine_2 Title A name given to the resource Kristine Skippergosh audio interview 2 and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Skippergosh, Kristine Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Rogers, Alyssa Johson, Cailie Johson, Stephanie Rhenshaw, Lyndsay Description An account of the resource Kristine Skippergosh is a junior at Grand Valley State University. She is of Native American descent and her father works for the city of Wyoming in Michigan. She discussed the difficulties her father faced regarding race in his early years, as well as some of her own challenges. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Indians of North America--Personal narratives Discrimination against Indians of North America Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-04-02 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b46579ea044f2e0b721591fee6c367e9.pdf 862b72d3d1660f926977ac83efe112fe PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Sequin-Beighley, Colette Interviewers: James Smith, martin Feenstra and Jacob Bouwman Supervising Faculty: Liberal Arts Department Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/12/2011 Runtime: 00:32:29 Biography and Description Colette Seguin-Beighley is director of the LGBT resource center at Grand Valley State University. She compares her experiences growing up in San Francisco during the civil rights movement with her experiences in West Michigan. Transcript J: My name is Jacob Bouwman, and I’m here today, Tuesday the 29th at 2 p.m. with Colette at the LGBT center in Allendale Michigan, and we are here today to talk about her experience with civil rights in West Michigan. Could you give some basic information about yourself, like your name, date of birth, religion, life partner, child, children? C: (Laughter), wow, date of birth! All right, (Laughter). Colette Seguin Beighley, April 10th 1957, long before you guys were even thought of! I currently do not have a life partner, although that’s up for debate, that could be conversation, negotiating that, I have two biological children, two stepchildren and a daughter-in law, and my oldest biological child is my son Arie, and he is gay. J: And then where did you grow up? C: I grew up in the San Francisco Bay area, Berkeley, in the 60’s, so that was a very tumultuous time when lots of civil rights movements were being born, beginning with the free speech movement on the Campus of UC Berkley and going onto the civil rights movement, the black panther party in Oakland was developed and very much in the forefront during that time, and then Indians of all tribes, which is how they wanted to be named, occupied Alcatraz and demanded civil rights federally and then also during that time there was the gay rights movement in San Francisco and the women’s movement happened during that time as well, and then in my early adulthood I was living in the San Francisco bay area when AIDS hit so there was a lot going on during my growing up years. J: Yeah, that’s pretty much a discussion of what it was like growing up, but obviously it was pretty crazy. Page 1 �C: Yeah, I feel like I have that, those civil rights movements are really sort of imprinted in my DNA, and looking at the world through the lens of marginalized communities as well, questioning the status quo, and making sure not to be a guardian of the status quo is also part of what I was left with. J: Then how did you get to West Michigan, what brought you to West Michigan? C: Let’s see, when I was married to Arie and Chloe’s dad, he was from Muskegon, and so we thought this would be a great place to raise a family, and it probably is, unless you have a gay kid, then not so much. J: Then how did that make you feel about being in West Michigan? C: I was really in culture shock; obviously I didn’t do my homework to know that there were places that were so different from the San Francisco Bay area. The first thing that I noticed was that I felt as though the women’s movement had never come here. So I moved in 1989 and the way that men talked about their partners was just so patriarchal, so misogynistic, and also I saw a lot of bigotry and just tremendous homophobia, so it was a really difficult move for me and I handled that by sort of going underground, and my friends, we would always say, “we’re not from around here,” and it was people like from a different country or a different state, who had also relocated to West Michigan who brought through difference, and a different world view and I just sort of was under the radar until Arie came out and that was really a turning point for me, and I felt like I had to give voice, I couldn’t be silent anymore. Ji: Do you have any specific experiences, or like crazy examples of how you found out that this area was really homophobic and stuff like that, do you have an examples? C: Well, I remember some friends of ours who were really our best friends, we thought lets go to Saugatuck for the weekend, you know, lets just go hang out, a great little town on the lake, fun little cottagey sort of town, and they were like, noooooo! We cannot go down there; there are queers down there! And then I was like *incredulous face*. At that point I had, had many dear friends whom I loved so much die of AIDS, so that was not only so offensive, it was just shocking, it was really like water being thrown in my face, and then also, I had seen probably three or four families have family members who had come out, and they were never integrated into the family, it was always problematic, and they were ejected, they never stayed around in the area. This was on the lakeshore now, I was living in the Spring Lake, Grand Haven area, so that was my experience before Arie came out. I knew that was the culture that I was living in. And plus, this is very personal, but my ex-husband was also a minister in the Wesleyan Church, and he has a PhD in marriage and family therapy, so he had a private practice, but he worked within that denomination, so I’m not really a church person, I wasn’t, I didn’t grow up in that world but you know, I would go, and until the homophobia from the pulpit became so much that I would blow out of there, and I think we landed in 3 different churches and I remember one time him saying to me you make it very hard for me to be a pastor. I am like this so it is very hard for me to hear this kind of hate I can’t sit there through that! So yeah, there was a lot of dissonance. J: And then you said that was your husband? C: Yes Page 2 �J: Were there any books or films or speeches or newspapers that influenced your thinking about gender relations at all? C: Well, gender relations, that’s an interesting way of to put it. Ok, so let me go down that very sort of generic gender relations thing. So in the early 80’s when I met my soon to be husband, I was coming from a place where the world, in the world that I lived in, people didn’t really feel the need to get married, they were really challenging that institution and saying that it was based on patriarchy and was institutionally oppressive, so I knew lots of families where the kids had two last names, and they were never married but they were happy families who were growing up together, so then I began a relationship with someone from the Midwest who had a very traditional upbringing, very church-based as well and that was not something he could really tolerate, so what he could tolerate was getting married and so I went down that road, so that challenged me in lots of ways, you know I think that initially I did not believe in the institution, then I bought into the institution, and not in any way to villainify my ex-husband because I have a great relationship with him, but the institution I think, is founded on a wrong premise and I just don’t see that its necessary, it’s the state valuing some relationships over other relationships and we get lots of benefits if we buy into that right? We get 1138 federal benefits that come with marriage, that unmarried partners do not have so why does the state get to say which relationships are valid and which aren’t? J: And then, you answered the next question kind of, but it was do you remember any family friends or individuals in the community that were discriminated against either formally or informally, but were there any examples in education or in employment, and you said socially, made one, but like in education or employment at all, did you see any discrimination at all? C: In California when I was growing up or here? J: Either one. C: Ok, well, I moved to, I grew up in the projects, and then when I was in 2nd grade we moved to a suburban neighborhood, a low income neighborhood, but it was a suburban neighborhood out of the projects and the first kid I met his name was Bruce, so im in 2nd grade at this point, and we grew up together, and he was sort of small in stature and he had the misfortune of the fact that his mom had remarried. He was a child from her previous marriage so his stepdad was also a retired marine and Bruce was not his biological child so Bruce was fairly effeminate and there was tremendous gender policing that went on with his dad and his dad would beat him. It was so traumatizing. He would just yank him out of the room and just start beating him. So I’d maybe be 10 feet away, just a wall separating us and I can still just hear blood-curdling screams in my head. It was so awful. It was so awful. So then my relationship with Bruce of course continued and we would walk to school together and he was often the victim of bullies, and I was like painfully shy when I was growing up so I wasn’t someone who would like jump in and break things up because I was just overwhelmed by the whole experience, and I remember one time he actually even had a broken leg, and just always being bullied, but just him looking up from the ground at me and saying Colette go for help. And there is something about that that has become sort of a life mission for me like I’m still trying to go for help for Bruce and then to bring that to your question of education, the principal would always blame Bruce for the fact Page 3 �that he was getting bullied. “Well if you’d just man up, if you would just you know act more like you’re supposed to then this wouldn’t be happening to you” so Bruce dropped out of school when we were, before our junior year in high school and he was the very first, and he lived on the street, totally on the street in San Francisco, just you know how survival, just trying to survive, he was the first person I ever knew who died of AIDS, it was at a time when the disease was very, very new and we were actually whispering it, you would not even talk about it, you’d just whisper it, it was so scary and so much shame was around it, just a horrible horrible, horrible time, so I feel like that really was my experience of knowing Bruce has impacted me in many ways. Ji: And then, what about like education and your employment here? I assume that it’s not as bad obviously, but are there any examples that influenced you more? C: Discrimination at Grand Valley specifically you’re talking about? Yeah, there are certainly examples of discrimination at Grand Valley that are part of Grand Valley’s history. Grand Valley has quite a history, I’m going to give you a DVD of the history, there’s one chapter in there about Grand Valley, I think we have finally come to a place where we are on the road to being great allies to the LGBT community, but still trying to figure out what that means. But the university has had a lot of bumps along the way and a lot of people have been hurt. It’s been a long process. Now the university is very committed to the community and we’re always trying to figure out more what that means. J: I definitely feel like if anybody here like talked about saying queer or saying anything bad like automatically I know a lot of people from Grand Valley are against like they view that they’re against them like it’s so out of the ordinary not to be ok with it, like I’m kind of happy that Grand Valley’s that ways now, like I don’t know it’s just like in high school, you saw, I always saw like bullying and stuff like that, but here if anybody were to say something, it would be like you can’t say that here. That’s why I’m kind of happy to be at a place like this, because people know that it’s not right and like they’re the ones that are shunned, not the ones that are coming out that are gay or bi or anything. C: That’s good to hear. You’re a member of the Greek community right? J: Yeah. C: Yeah, my daughter Chloe, she’s… J: Oh yeah! C: Are you a member of the Greek community? Ji: No I am not. C: Well a couple years ago the Greek community came to us and asked if we would do Greek ally training, so we’ve been doing Greek allies and advocates now, and we have nearly 300 Greeks who are trained to be allies and that’s so different from other college campuses where the Greek community is not friendly to the LGBT communities so I think that’s a wonderful thing about Grand Valley. Page 4 �J: I mean, I can’t get too involved just because of like rowing and everything, but I mean, I know a lot of Greeks are trying to work toward that too. But anyways, who are your civil rights heroes locally? C: Locally? You know, ok, I do have a hero locally. Doug VanDoren, who is the pastor of Plymouth Congregational United Church of Christ, is a wonderful civil rights leader in our area. He is a great champion of marginalized communities whether its refugees whether its women and he was one of the first people to come out for the LGBT community and that’s in this DVD that I just gave you as well. He’s in there. But he talks about how there was a Byron Center teacher who was outed. There’s a whole chapter about Jerry Crane, and that’s the name of the instructor, the Byron Center teacher, he was outed, and it created this firestorm throughout Byron Center, there was a school board meeting where 800 people attended and pretty much Jerry Crane was on trial, he’d had a commitment ceremony, and his students got wind of it, and then it got to the parents, and then the American Family Society stepped in, and started handing out letters and videos to every mailbox of parents and they were just really sensationalized videos of like gay pride parades and they take the most extreme pictures and it was really horrible experience so they did not fire Jerry because the risk of litigation was too high, but he did quit at the end of the year. That next year he died of a stress related heart attack at 32 years old. So during that time when there was this pastor who you’ll see in this video because that story made 20-20 so there’s a clip of the 20-20 story on this DVD. This pastor from Byron Center was just so hateful toward the gay community, so Doug VanDoren stepped up and stood in solidarity with Jerry Crane’s pastor who was supportive of him and got other pastors on board so they had like, I don’t know, 50 or 100 pastors who had signed on in support of Jerry Crane and his church so you know Doug just came out of nowhere and did this organizing, and then around prop 2 which said, which is our anti-marriage equality constitutional amendment here in Michigan, he also organized a group called the “Concerned Clergy” which is, you know, local pastors who did not want discrimination written into our constitution. So he’s a great organizer, he’s a wonderful speaker, he’s very very very articulate and just has this great heart, and his congregation is extremely welcoming and affirming of the LGBT community. J: What about nationally? C: Nationally, well let’s see. I’m going to try to think of one that isn’t just the basic one. Hmmm. Currently I just really admire the work of Incite! Its women of color who are doing organizing work around police brutality and they’re doing it outside of the non-profit world. They’re doing grassroots organizing that isn’t tied to professionalizing their work by becoming non-profit. It’s not tied to funders in any way. They can speak their truth and not worry about losing funding and they’re really amazing heroes. I’ve recently this year been reading feminist literature by women of color so Angela Davis, Belle Hookes, reading those works, and I think they’re amazing heroes of mine. It’s the women’s movement was erroneously framed from a white perspective. White middle class perspective and it left out women of color, women of lower socio-economic classes and so these women developed their own voices and that’s been really instructional for me this year. Of course all the basics, you know, MLK, but I’m trying to talk about some other voices as well. J: You kind of talked about how, like how did your thinking about your identity change growing up? You said your son was a big factor, but was there anything else? Was there any other major factors or experiences or anything? Page 5 �C: *pause* hmmm…Interesting question. I’m a first generation college student from my family and as I said, grew up in the projects, so come from a background where going to college was just frowned upon because it would make you snooty, and so then I went on the get an advanced degree which is even more sort of an act of betrayal actually and I think that growing up in those roots has been impactful because I don’t have an elite upbringing. People never think I grew up in the projects. They always think I had a privileged upbringing. I don’t know why but that’s what they think and so I’m happy that I have had that experience even though at times it was harrowing, it just widens my view of the world a little bit more. J: What kind of work do you do now? C: Well I’m the director of the LGBT Resource Center. I also sit on the board for Equality Michigan, which is our state anti-violence and advocacy organization serving the LGBT community. I also am involved with the National Consortium of Higher Education Resource Center Professionals. Way to long in name, I know *laughs* but it’s all the LGBT campus resource centers and a regional representative with that, and what else? Read the question again. J: It was just what do you do? What is your work that you do? C: So now my work changes every day. The mission of the LGBT resource center is to educate and empower students to lead authentic lives, to challenge gender and sexuality stereotypes and to work for social justice, so all our work is framed around that, and I always think of that in terms of pushing out a space to create the greater visibility for the LGBT community, but also to mainstream their issues. I think of our office as serving 25,000 students on campus, not just the LGBT community because these students who are from the dominant group live in a society where a whole group of people don’t have their rights so that is their issue as well, this is not just an LGBT issue, this is everybody’s issue. So we work with students and help them along their developmental journey. We work with faculty and staff as well, we support them, we work with the institution to make sure our policies and practices are supportive of the community, we work in the community, probably more so than other offices, because our students, faculty, staff, alums all go out into the community to work and live and that’s a community where they don’t have their rights so our work expands in that direction as well. J: And then, it asks if you could tell like a story, about how like, one of the specific ways the organizations that you’re part of, is there a story you can just tell about one of them, just anything like that? C: Well I’ll tell you a couple different student experiences, I don’t know if these are going to fit, but we had one student bounce into campus at 9 o’clock move-in morning, and he had moved in at 8 o’clock and then had made a beeline for the LGBT resource center, and he walked in and was just like exploding, so happy, and I went “Hi, I’m Colette” and he goes “I know, I know all of your names because I’ve been studying the website, I’m just so happy to be here” and I was just like “wow this is so great, you know”. The next day I get into work, and Carrie tells me that student is here, he’s very, very, very distressed, he’s out in Kirkhof somewhere, and I’m like oh my gosh did something happen to him. I find him and he says “I’ve made a terrible mistake, I should never have come here, this is not a safe place, and I just need Page 6 �to leave.” I go “Oh my gosh did something happen?” “No I just know this is not a safe place. Inside your office is safe, but not out here” I go “So nothing happened?” “No.” “I don’t think you’ve had any experience of being safe in different places. Why don’t you just come into the center and hang out with us today and do some work for us?” So he happily stuffed envelopes for faculty members with our programming in it and was happy as a clam, but it was interesting because at that time we had our little barrier up here to create a cubby space and it felt like we just placed him inside a cocoon for about 4 hours and he just stuffed his envelopes and we were chatting and doing our stuff and students were coming in and out and he was a part of that too. After 4 hours the student that I met the first day, came to my door and just said “I’m completely over it, I don’t know what happened. I have my feet back on the ground; I’m ready to go out again, thank you for letting me stay here.” I think that’s a good example of the resource center, you know, from that perspective of being a safety net for students who have high risk, we’ve had students walk into our center who’ve had bandaged wrists from attempted suicide. We have students who have to walk over to the counseling center because they’re in such distress. Another story is, we had a freshmen come in. On our balcony there’s a big 16 foot banner during the first weeks of school that says “The LGBT resource center welcomes you to campus.” Then it says “Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender” because so many students don’t know what LGBT is. So he came in and said “I saw the banner and I stopped and I took a picture of it, and I couldn’t believe that I was in a place that had that kind of banner” So it was very sweet. And then we had a straight student come in at the beginning of the school year and she said “I came here because of this center, and I don’t identify as being a member of the community, but when I came on my campus tour, and I saw that Grand Valley had an LGBT resource center, I thought this is the kind of place I want to go to school at. It was just really a sweet story, also again of how our presence is educational to all the student body not just, it sends a clear message, that no matter where straight students are on their journey of being an ally or not being an ally, the message is clear that Grand Valley supports this community. There are a few stories. Ji: Can you describe exactly what an ally is when you describe that? I’m not really sure what that is. C: An ally is someone who is supportive of the Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer community and that is on the continuum, right, so it’s not just, you’ve passed over the threshold, now you’re an ally. It’s a developmental journey, that you’re really always on, so it could be that the journey started like this: You used to tell homophobic jokes, but now you don’t tell homophobic jokes anymore, because you’re moving along the journey, so now, you don’t say anything though when the homophobic jokes go on, so then you’re moving along in the journey, and now maybe you feel like, I’m just not ok with that anymore, I’m going to say something, and then maybe you move along farther and you start to incorporate friendships with people from the community. Then move along a little farther, and you include language that does not exclude the community in the way you live your life, like maybe you start saying partner instead of husband or wife because you’re aware that not everybody is heterosexual, but we live in a heterosexist society, so we’re taught to think that way, and then just to being an all-out radical ally at the other end of the continuum who is advocating for LGBT rights on campus, off campus, you know, making the commitment to the community as really part of your life. Make sense? Ji: Yeah, that makes sense Page 7 �C: So it’s not just like… and then as, I think that as you’re going on, you can’t ever say that you’ve really arrived, because you’re always becoming more and more aware of the ways that people are oppressed, you know once you’re an ally to one community it opens your eyes to the ways that other communities experience discrimination. J: What, are there any specific ways that you think Grand Valley needs to improve? C: You’re going to make me say it on tape huh? *laughs* J: *laughs* Have they improved? C: I think Grand Valley has improved tremendously, and I think Grand Valley wants to continue to improve and the intent is to make the needs of students, not just LGBT students, but straight students in educating them to be critical thinkers who can address injustice and create change and I think that is what a liberal education is about, so I think that Grand Valley is very committed to the process, it doesn’t mean that we’re perfect, it doesn’t mean that we’re there. There’s always, always more work to be done. J: Yeah. Were you involved… you said you went to college and further than that. Were you involved in any organizations in college at all? I don’t remember if you ever said. C: No, I really didn’t become an advocate until after college. I had lots of friends who were involved in Central American politics. Lots of friends who were involved in pro-choice efforts, but I think my son coming out and learning about the violence that he suffered before he came out really radicalized me. Ji: I think we learned a lot. Thank you so much. END OF INTERVIEW Page 8 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/59d568b21439bc197183beab094f0fdb.mp3 fd5212fe749809ca0e65f17d61748bb6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Seguin-Beighley_Colette_1 Title A name given to the resource Colette Seguin-Beighley audio interview and transcript, interview 1 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Seguin-Beighley, Colette Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Smith, James Feenstra, Martin Bouwman, Jacob Description An account of the resource Colette Seguin-Beighley is director of the LGBT resource center at Grand Valley State University. She compares her experiences growing up in San Francisco during the civil rights movement with her experiences in West Michigan. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-12-12 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives