794 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/53f9b322073e3a31ced98a404639e2ef.pdf 640e088ca97290e9165b83b224551ff5 PDF Text Text The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interview Log Sheet Storyteller: Olivia Maynard Interviewer: S. Olaf Karlstrom Date: 10/17/06 Time: 37:44 Facilitator: N. Pumilia Location: Kalamazoo (1:00) OM discusses her introduction to philanthropy, through examples of family and community. (2:30) Karlstrom, mother worked in Detroit, taking care of young Swedish immigrants with Detroit Symphony Orchestra and Detroit Opera (4:00) Mother named Swedish American of the year and gave speech in Stockholm, Sweden (5:00) Maynard discusses her father’s philanthropic work, difference with OM and OK was that they included their children in the Heron Oaks Foundation, tends to focus on educational activities, through their children’s interests often determine where money is gifted. Money to victims of Hurricane Katrina in New Orleans, LA (8:10) Maynard talks about her dad, “a bit of a dictator” wanted to make his own decisions about gifting (10:45) Both their careers have led them to philanthropic groups, knowledge of process. Talk about how grant giving is determined within the Heron-Oaks Foundation (15:30) Karlstrom discusses his father’s giving money to the University of the South (16:00) Detroit-Swedish Council, Karlstrom’s mother started this program (17:20) “True rewards” of helping people unexpected gratitude, passing forward, a legacy, how to encourage dialogue in America (20:00) Move towards working to reconcile gaps in American culture (23:30) Influx of Latino population, creating understanding, dialogue, working in city of Flint, MI (26:00) Moving Democratic getting anti-racism training. C. Stewart Mott Foundation. Children moving out of house, scope widening �(28:00) Discussing how their children will arrange the Heron-Oaks Foundation (31:00)Fluidity of the foundation’s intent, Seattle, WA, Minneapolis, MN (34:00) Philanthropic world can fill in gaps that government leaves (35:00) Working with state and county government and private sector to revitalize down town, Flint, MI. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0fbacc2cdae1b4372cc8afcb25a05129.mp3 48cf6093be84045dce8db96e19d16b09 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interviews Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Description An account of the resource The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) was initiated in 2006 as an innovative partnership between the Council of Michigan Foundations, StoryCorps, Michigan Radio and the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership at Grand Valley State University to create an oral history of Michigan philanthropy. Additional video interviews were created by the Johnson Center for Philanthropy to add to the depth and breadth of the collection. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/516">Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) (JCPA-08). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Sound Text Moving Image Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf video/mp4 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2006-2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Johnson Center for Philantrhopy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource StoryCorps (Project) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08_Maynard-Karlstrom Title A name given to the resource Conversation with Olivia Maynard and Olof Karlstrom Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Maynard, Olivia Karlstrom, Olof Description An account of the resource Olivia Maynard, President of the Heron Oaks Foundation in Flint, Michigan, talks with her husband Olof Karlstrom, Treasurer, about the influence of her Swedish mother's volunteer work in Detroit on her understanding of philanthropy, their intentions for their children to manage the foundation in the future and how the Heron Oaks Foundation is partnering with the public and private sector to revitalize downtown Flint. Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Heron Oaks Foundation Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives, Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives, Council of Michigan Foundations StoryCorp Interviews Relation A related resource Johnson Center Philanthropy Collection (JCPA-08) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sound Portraits Productions StoryCorps (Project) Michigan Radio, Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-10-17 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fb3cc2f37575176d1eff771859f49098.pdf 48e1e6b89f6c523d82b0cc8118718802 PDF Text Text The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interview Log Sheet Storyteller: Russell Mawby Interviewer: Kari Pardoe Date: 10/16/06 Time: 42:02 Facilitator: Elaine D. Location: CMF- Kalamazoo (0:55) How Russ knows Kari (1:00) How Russ became involved in philanthropy- his childhood, parents, Boy Scouts and 4-H were huge influences (2:20) His career is philanthropy, how it began. Dec. 1964 he joined the staff of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation (3:58) How Kari got involved in philanthropy- her parents, family and background, and how she joined the Youth Advisory Council (5:15) Russ’s time at Kellogg- went from Director of the Division of Agriculture to the CEO- the positions he held, talks about the vision of the future of the foundation (10:40) Russ talks about CMF’s move to larger community foundations and Russ helped start the Youth Advisory Committee for these foundations (12:28) Kari remembers when she first became involved in the Youth Advisory Council (13:20) Adopting a family at Christmas time, they were living in a house with dirt floors (14:30) How she decided to go into non-profit (not business) after college, and what she does now (15:20) Learning to Give- develop k-12 curriculum to teach kids about philanthropy, Russ talks about how it started, goes into the history of volunteerism (19:50) Examples of what philanthropy these young people do, Russ “the only thing that matters is people, not money” his definition of a leader (22:50) Russ remembers his work in Latin America with Kellogg Foundation and when they started working in Africa in 80’s- his visit to South Africa during apartheid �(26:20) What direction Russ thinks foundations should go in, he remembers the first meeting of CMF, how it formed and the formation of Michigan Non Profit (30:15) The great challenge of early childhood- everyone needs a loving adult, the need for organizations to collaborate (grant makers and non-profit) (32:38) How philanthropy has had an impact on his personal life, talks more about his involvement with 4-H, he talks about the pitfalls of philanthropy work especially as a CEO (35:49) His 5 values: honesty, compassions, respect, responsibility and fairness (36:45) His hope for philanthropy, what his legacy will be, wants to be remember that he cared (38:08) The 3 areas he’s disappointed, haven’t improved with his philanthropic work: supporting a healthy family structure, bringing caring back to the professions (health, juvenile, etc.) and systematic changes in public education system, haven’t changed since institutionalized in the 1830s, society has changed, schools haven’t (40:58) Quote that Kari lives by “In 10 0years it doesn’t matter what car you drove but that you made a difference in the life of a child.” � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/69473df86087ca184a4a456eb67be62b.mp3 3a476b70ec06265a4d633510744cc7f4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interviews Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Description An account of the resource The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) was initiated in 2006 as an innovative partnership between the Council of Michigan Foundations, StoryCorps, Michigan Radio and the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership at Grand Valley State University to create an oral history of Michigan philanthropy. Additional video interviews were created by the Johnson Center for Philanthropy to add to the depth and breadth of the collection. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/516">Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) (JCPA-08). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Sound Text Moving Image Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf video/mp4 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2006-2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Johnson Center for Philantrhopy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource StoryCorps (Project) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08_Pardoe-Mawby Title A name given to the resource Conversation with Russell Mawby and Kari Pardoe Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell Pardoe, Kari Description An account of the resource Former Council of Michigan Foundations' Youth Philanthropy Associate, Kari Pardoe, talks with her mentor Russell Mawby, Chairman Emeritus of the W.K. Kellogg Foundation in Battle Creek, Michigan, about the youth philanthropy movement in Michigan and Russ's perspectives on giving time, talent and treasurer for the greater good. Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Youth W.K. Kellogg Foundation Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives, Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives, Council of Michigan Foundations StoryCorp Interviews Relation A related resource Johnson Center Philanthropy Collection (JCPA-08) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sound Portraits Productions StoryCorps (Project) Michigan Radio, Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-10-16 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/79f04eb6bffc92fb26742cbb478784c6.pdf ebbb161c550f921c97fbaa1518d23664 PDF Text Text The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interview Log Sheet Storyteller: Tara Kutz Interviewer: John Donkersloot Date: 6/24/07 Time: 42:06 Facilitator: M. Premo Location: University of Michigan (1:00) Discuss the Youth Advisory Committee (YAC) in Delta County, how she became involved because of a friend (2:00) Donkersloot discusses how a sport teammate got him involved to go to meetings of the MCYFP (3:33) They are inspired by what the problems of the community are (3:52) Inspired by the leaders of the foundations (5:37) Inspired by young leaders (6:30) Empowered to affect change, given the tools to cause change (7:50) Philanthropy shows power to engage in the community (9:05) Kutz feels that it’s not just rich givers, but youth in community that also use funds to influence positive developments (10:04) They discuss how youth can affect/cause change also (11:25) Discuss how grant-making instills increased respect and responsibility to the community (13:30) Favorite grants (18:00) Discuss how grant-making has become a passion- involved with the State Farm Youth Advisory Board (19:05) Discuss how Kutz got involved in the State Farm Advisory Board (21:00) This opened their eyes to service (24:00) Showed a social responsibility for people with wealth (28:00) Discuss how the State Farm grant stands out in Kutz’s mind. CPA- personal economic education �(32:00) Discuss the important grant to Donkersloot (35:00) They discuss the critical skills learned from technical realities of grant-making (36:36) Critical thinking- deep benefit throughout the process (38:00) Grant-making in general is a fun process (39:13) Their eyes have become opened beyond homogenous local community (40:00) Discuss how honored they are by peers, change at youth � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/42a800b8f58872f537dd35a17750edea.mp3 ca0282d04c5da519bf9df17a646ed0f7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interviews Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Description An account of the resource The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) was initiated in 2006 as an innovative partnership between the Council of Michigan Foundations, StoryCorps, Michigan Radio and the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership at Grand Valley State University to create an oral history of Michigan philanthropy. Additional video interviews were created by the Johnson Center for Philanthropy to add to the depth and breadth of the collection. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/516">Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) (JCPA-08). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Sound Text Moving Image Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf video/mp4 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2006-2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Johnson Center for Philantrhopy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource StoryCorps (Project) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08_Kutz-Donkersloot Title A name given to the resource Conversation with Tara Kutz and John Donkersloot Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Kutz, Tara Donkersloot, John Description An account of the resource Youth grantmakers and Michigan Community Foundation Youth Project members, Tara Kutz of the Community Foundation for Delta County, and John Donkersloot of the Community Foundation for Holland/Zeeland talk about how each of them got involved in Youth Advisory Councils and the ways youth can and are making a difference in their local areas. Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Michigan Community Foundations Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives, Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives, Council of Michigan Foundations StoryCorp Interviews Relation A related resource Johnson Center Philanthropy Collection (JCPA-08) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sound Portraits Productions StoryCorps (Project) Michigan Radio, Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-06-24 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e8d6d92857a1278211773cde443d8891.pdf 7e38cecda3b9ca334937f6756750c7cc PDF Text Text The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interview Log Sheet Storyteller: Dottie Johnson Interviewer: Rob Collier Date: 10/27/08 Time: Facilitator: Littlewood Location: Grand Rapids, MI (0:00) Introductions (1:00) they discuss the beginning of Council of Michigan Foundation- largest regional association in the country (1:55) The starting of a foundation in Grand Haven, MI; and how Dottie was invited to join the board of the CMF (3:00) Rob came to Michigan through VISTA position (4:30) Family philanthropy donor who wanted to start a family foundation called Dottie from a pay phone in Florida on New Years Eve – He started it all in five hours (6:20) They discuss the differences in the beginning and how things begin to snowball as one family starts a foundation and others follow (8:00) Growth of family foundations- but the difficulty of how to get the next generation involved (10:00) They talk about one family that didn’t even tell their children they were on the board. They were having too much fun running it themselves (11:00) How to start a foundation- donor advice and funding (12:55) 30 years ago there were less foundations than now. Kellogg Foundation gave a challenge grant- if the community raises $2 million then Kellogg will donate $1 million to youth programs- Youth Fund (15:45) They discuss how the community foundations in Michigan are growing. Impact of tax credit, helping people give, leverage lots of resources. CMF is now over $2 ½ billion. (20:00) Restitution funds from law suits, etc. (21:00) Tobacco restitution funds- community foundations as convener of funds, brought many groups together (23:30) Working on environmental issues. Challenges facing the Great Lakes �(25:00) Youth trained by community foundations going on to aid government and organizations. Youth Advisory Commissions (27:00) Youth philanthropy spreading over the Korea. Access to learning about philanthropy in schools an issue. “Learning to Give.” Response to the 2004 tsunami as part of an educational curriculum (30:00) Challenges facing Michigan, how corporate resources are responding (34:30) Priorities shift in response to economic issues. Job retraining, domestic violence prevention (35:40) Kellogg Foundation founded during the Depression (37:45) Dottie talks about it being the best job in the world. Working with people who felt good about helping � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6013df7fc83655b2e8d6dbc85d52501b.mp3 bf513974ac6dcf248b3aaa35ac014261 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interviews Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Description An account of the resource The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) was initiated in 2006 as an innovative partnership between the Council of Michigan Foundations, StoryCorps, Michigan Radio and the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership at Grand Valley State University to create an oral history of Michigan philanthropy. Additional video interviews were created by the Johnson Center for Philanthropy to add to the depth and breadth of the collection. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/516">Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) (JCPA-08). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Sound Text Moving Image Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf video/mp4 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2006-2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Johnson Center for Philantrhopy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource StoryCorps (Project) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08_Johnson-Collier Title A name given to the resource Conversation with Dorothy A. Johnson and Robert Collier Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Johnson, Dorothy A. Collier, Robert Description An account of the resource Dorothy A. Johnson, President Emeritus of the Council of Michigan Foundations (CMF), and Robert Collier, CMF President & CEO, recall CMF's beginnings and how Michigan philanthropy has grown, changed and adjusted changed over the years as more foundations form, youth philanthropy develops and priorities shift. Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Council of Michigan Foundations Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives, Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives, Council of Michigan Foundations StoryCorp Interviews Relation A related resource Johnson Center Philanthropy Collection (JCPA-08) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sound Portraits Productions StoryCorps (Project) Michigan Radio, Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-10-15 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cf279d12995b7b4b79c3a24c81d1b784.pdf 73f86c262cecfab494879654e45f42f5 PDF Text Text The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interview Log Sheet Storyteller: James Feeney Interviewer: Charles Betty Gross Date: 10/17/06 Time: 38:16 Facilitator: K. Duggins Location: CMF- Kalamazoo (0:00) Introductions (1:16) A bit about how they each got into the line of work they’re into with the foundation in particular (5:38) A bit about the people for whom the foundation is named. How they came to start a foundation (10:20) Also very generous when they were alive (10:55) Something they thought that the founders would be proud of (12:41) J. discuss the money the foundation has donated to the local symphony. Charles discusses the two scholarship funds (15:56) J. discusses the others on the board. Struggling with how they will perpetuate the legacy of the Stubnitz after the original board is gone (20:07) How they each have been personally affected by the line of work (25:49) Not as hard to give the money away as they thought it would be (31:25) James discusses the county in which they live in Michigan (34:11) What they’re looking forward to with the future (36:27) If they could do it again they would do it the same (36:09) Want to leave the legacy of the Stubnitz family � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/df08d8106500b6ae0102054a62a4b2c2.mp3 2b9a758dffba158528683ef11c9e021f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interviews Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Description An account of the resource The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) was initiated in 2006 as an innovative partnership between the Council of Michigan Foundations, StoryCorps, Michigan Radio and the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership at Grand Valley State University to create an oral history of Michigan philanthropy. Additional video interviews were created by the Johnson Center for Philanthropy to add to the depth and breadth of the collection. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/516">Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) (JCPA-08). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Sound Text Moving Image Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf video/mp4 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2006-2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Johnson Center for Philantrhopy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource StoryCorps (Project) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08_Feeney-Gross Title A name given to the resource Conversation with James Feeney, Charles Gross, and Betty Gross Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Feeney, James Gross, Charles Gross, Betty Description An account of the resource Husband and wife Charles and Betty Gross talk with friend James Feeney, about each of their involvement as trustees of the Maurice and Dorothy Stubnitz Foundation, an independent foundation in Adrian, Michigan, supporting causes like the local symphony. They also discuss their hopes for the foundation's future. Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Maurice and Dorothy Stubnitz Foundation Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives, Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives, Council of Michigan Foundations StoryCorp Interviews Relation A related resource Johnson Center Philanthropy Collection (JCPA-08) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sound Portraits Productions StoryCorps (Project) Michigan Radio, Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-10-17 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/342c4d57fdfab13781a6fed24fb029c3.pdf 2e7242a45c9d242e5f1c7563f8333067 PDF Text Text The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interview Log Sheet Storyteller: Breannah Alexander Interviewer: Katelin Griffin Date: 6/24/07 Time: 39:44 Facilitator: M. Premo Location: University of Michigan (0:46) Discuss how long she has been involved and how she became involved in philanthropy (4:36) Proactive grant-making (5:48) Needs assessment (9:00) Attracted to philanthropy (10:05) Discuss how its helping and making a difference (10:34) Philanthropy starts with youth (11:30) National Youth Service Day, impactful event, power of social responsibility (12:36) Knowing what to do (13:23) The importance of moving the money (14:00) Peer to peer impact of getting others involved (20:00) Important for the people who are going to inherit the world, to solve its problems (21:00) Young people helping young people (21:20) How this has changed her outlook on life (23:00) How she sees herself as a volunteer (26:55) Know applicant forward and back (31:15) Example of grant manipulation to look for (33:20) Example of grant recommendation (35:00) Best grant types, peer support �(36:30) Discuss her advice to young YACers � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/02ca3ba17c0d497ac489df467e2dc69a.mp3 03bc4d57a3ea5e44d593e2420e032404 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interviews Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Description An account of the resource The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) was initiated in 2006 as an innovative partnership between the Council of Michigan Foundations, StoryCorps, Michigan Radio and the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership at Grand Valley State University to create an oral history of Michigan philanthropy. Additional video interviews were created by the Johnson Center for Philanthropy to add to the depth and breadth of the collection. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/516">Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) (JCPA-08). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Sound Text Moving Image Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf video/mp4 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2006-2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Johnson Center for Philantrhopy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource StoryCorps (Project) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08_Alexander-Griffin Title A name given to the resource Conversation with Katelin Griffin and Breannah Alexander Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Alexander, Breannah Griffin, Katelin Description An account of the resource Youth grantmakers Breannah Alexander of the Saginaw Community Foundation, and Katelin Griffin of The Eaton County Community Foundation talk about their involvement in their local Youth Advisory Councils and what philanthropy means to them as young people trying to make change. Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Michigan Community Foundations Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives, Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives, Council of Michigan Foundations StoryCorp Interviews Relation A related resource Johnson Center Philanthropy Collection (JCPA-08) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sound Portraits Productions StoryCorps (Project) Michigan Radio, Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-06-14 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a24b96b8c010d334f839b51cc74caa29.pdf b9befcdc9bc502b46021cc808f8d468f PDF Text Text The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interview Log Sheet Storyteller: John Frey Interviewer: Eleonora Frey Date: 6/25/07 Time: 44:40 Facilitator: Rachel Falcone Location: Charlevoix, Michigan (0:00) Introductions (1:00) Discuss his mother and father that founded the Frey Foundation, then the children took over (2:40) Didn’t have a definite plan for the foundation after their parents passed away. Dorothy Johnson helped the family with the direction of the foundation (4:29) Discussed the passing of the mother, and how their grandfather and uncle were into philanthropy also (5:59) Discussed the early projects of the foundation, redevelopment of Grand Rapids and quality of the area (7:40) Generation of giving- John’s generation- to help strangers and those in need (8:57) Story of hay, everyone helping in a farm (9:46) “Fill the Gap” understanding grants as part of the process- grant makers become social investors. Grandmother was on the board and chose 5 area in spirit of their passions- environment, arts, children, civic progress, furthering philanthropy (12:16) Discuss how the foundation world falls into its own language (13:40) Look at the interests of the trustees, family dynamics with the family foundation, interaction of the family for greater good of the community (15:34) Family (17:17) Discuss the family involvement in the foundation, round table, how John’s generation has given a voice to the foundation, young generation now involved with the changes (19:39) John talks about the gentlemen with ideas. Zoo, Grand Rapids Civic Theater, Santa Maria, St. Mary’s. Development of the Community Foundations- YAC (21:16) Michigan was the foundation of YAC- Mott and Kellogg �(22:48) Formalization of the process of grant-making (24:40) Frey Foundation has become a model for other foundations (26:33) John’s favorite memories of Philantrhopy, family portrait (27:37) John hopes that later generations don’t start off with criticisms like his generation did (29:30) Lead with positives instead of negatives (30:43) Discuss John’s passion- families helping families (32:16) Tough questions and tough answers to be made, but not being afraid to make decisions. Education is key to getting people involved and understanding philanthropy (36:26) Challenges for philanthropy in the next generation (37:21) Discuss taking positions, speak to politicians (38:27) Discuss how John would like to see foundations connect with politicians (42:06) International community � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4063b41a324847c21cc4d45153650204.mp4 db887f4a93188978859fad51791bb406 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interviews Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Description An account of the resource The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) was initiated in 2006 as an innovative partnership between the Council of Michigan Foundations, StoryCorps, Michigan Radio and the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership at Grand Valley State University to create an oral history of Michigan philanthropy. Additional video interviews were created by the Johnson Center for Philanthropy to add to the depth and breadth of the collection. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/516">Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) (JCPA-08). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Sound Text Moving Image Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf video/mp4 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2006-2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Johnson Center for Philantrhopy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource StoryCorps (Project) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08_Frey Title A name given to the resource Conversation with John and Eleonora Frey Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Frey, John Frey, Eleonora Description An account of the resource Father and daughter pair John Frey, Vice-Chairman, and Eleonora Frey, Next Generation Trustee of the Frey Foundation, talk about the founding of the Frey Foundation in Grand Rapids, Michigan and the importance of the next generation's participation in the foundation's giving. Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Frey Foundation Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives, Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives, Council of Michigan Foundations StoryCorp Interviews Relation A related resource Johnson Center Philanthropy Collection (JCPA-08) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sound Portraits Productions StoryCorps (Project) Michigan Radio, Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-06-25 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4ba171393bf19fd981d1e82f20658f81.pdf 93af558f6f5133a287c0587151730be2 PDF Text Text The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interview Log Sheet Storyteller: Betsy Upton Stover Interviewer: Julie Fisher Cummings Date: 6/24/07 Time: 35:56 Facilitator: Location: Charlevoix, Michigan (0:54) Talk about the Max Fisher Foundation, how it was founded (2:21) Discuss the founding of the Upton Foundation, 3rd generation (5:56) Discuss the Torch Program which helped rebuild Detroit after the ‘60s riot (7:03) Discuss the early focus of the Fisher Foundation (8:15) Discuss the early focus of the Upton Foundation (10:36) They felt that they were stewards for the money, humble men who made their children work hard, things were not just given to them (16:20) Discuss the family dynamic of the foundation, separate philanthropic interests (18:00) The generation challenges between the families (21:50) Discuss the favorite grant of the Upton Foundation (22:16) Discuss Betsy’s favorite project (25:00) They talk about the Detroit Youth Service empowerment program (26:00) Sharing a story about how her mother bought a store of underwear for a homeless party (27:00) Discuss Frederick Upton (28:40) Describe how the lessons of philanthropy were instilled at a very young age (31:00) Talk about the favorite grant in her father’s legacy � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6f2ca2bd1be069312eeb51ffbf6401c4.mp3 69641ed4435dc37e51a98ec56c09a436 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interviews Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Description An account of the resource The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) was initiated in 2006 as an innovative partnership between the Council of Michigan Foundations, StoryCorps, Michigan Radio and the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership at Grand Valley State University to create an oral history of Michigan philanthropy. Additional video interviews were created by the Johnson Center for Philanthropy to add to the depth and breadth of the collection. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/516">Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) (JCPA-08). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Sound Text Moving Image Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf video/mp4 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2006-2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Johnson Center for Philantrhopy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource StoryCorps (Project) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08_Stover-Cummings Title A name given to the resource Conversation with Betsy Upton-Stover and Julie Fisher Cummings Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Upton-Stover, Betsy Fisher Cummings, Julie Description An account of the resource Betsy Upton Stover, trustee of the Frederick S. Upton Foundation in St. Joseph, Michigan, and Julie Fisher Cummings, trustee of the Max M. and Marjorie S. Fisher Foundation in Southfield, Michigan talk about the influence each of their philanthropic fathers had on their lives and personal philanthropy. Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Frederick S. Upton Foundation Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives, Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives, Council of Michigan Foundations StoryCorp Interviews Relation A related resource Johnson Center Philanthropy Collection (JCPA-08) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sound Portraits Productions StoryCorps (Project) Michigan Radio, Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-06-24 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b87ba246e7b1af7217076b054914a580.pdf 99f9dade0f1f8dbbb3b253f26cb99686 PDF Text Text The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interview Log Sheet Storyteller: Mattie Jordon-Woods Interviewer: J. Louis Felton Date: 10/16/06 Time: 42:49 Facilitator: K. Duggins Location: CMF- Kalamazoo (0:00) Introduction (1:00) Pastor Feldman’s history in Kalamazoo. Discusses a bit about politics in Kalamazoo (5:01) Mattie gives her history of living in Kalamazoo, the politics of the city and of black people in Kalamazoo. How she developed the idea of working with community. Discuss the influence of her mom in becoming who she is (10:57) How Feldman came to work in the Foundation (13:35) Mattie discusses how she came to be involved in the Foundation (16:44) Mattie discusses the grocery store that she facilitated getting built, the problems she faced and surmounted (21:38) Continue to discuss the store (24:59) Pastor Feldman discusses the memorable experiences in his work as a pastor and with the foundation (33:28) Living your purpose, how to do it (40:43) Mattie discusses the goals of her dream foundation � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d687f0917e54263f64c88f98d28dc354.mp3 0dedf19f57abf843e9a5144f348654a6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interviews Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Description An account of the resource The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) was initiated in 2006 as an innovative partnership between the Council of Michigan Foundations, StoryCorps, Michigan Radio and the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership at Grand Valley State University to create an oral history of Michigan philanthropy. Additional video interviews were created by the Johnson Center for Philanthropy to add to the depth and breadth of the collection. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/516">Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) (JCPA-08). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Sound Text Moving Image Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf video/mp4 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2006-2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Johnson Center for Philantrhopy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource StoryCorps (Project) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08_Felton-Woods Title A name given to the resource Conversation with Rev. J. Louis Felton and Mattie Jordan-Woods Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Felton, J. Louis, Jordan-Woods, Mattie Description An account of the resource Reverend J. Louis Felton, Trustee of the Kalamazoo Community Foundation, and grantee Mattie Jordan-Woods, Executive Director of the Northside Association for Community Development, talk about their experiences living in Kalamazoo, Michigan and how Mattie's work in bringing the Felpausch Food grocery store into the northside neighborhood has been a significant change in Kalamazoo's revitalization. Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives, Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives, Council of Michigan Foundations StoryCorp Interviews Relation A related resource Johnson Center Philanthropy Collection (JCPA-08) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sound Portraits Productions StoryCorps (Project) Michigan Radio, Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-10-16 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7d6d90432717238c9ddb2029c282710a.pdf 3806e498bf52e069708e5c9f0f56600f PDF Text Text The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interview Log Sheet Storyteller: Carrie Pickett-Erway Interviewer: Deborah Higgins Date: 10/16/06 Time: 41:32 Facilitator- Nick Pumilia Location: CMF- Kalamazoo (0:50) Describes how she came to philanthropy work, introduced to someone at Kellogg Foundation, had an internship, shifted to Kalamazoo Community Foundation and eventually hired to permanent staff (3:00) Discusses where she has drawn inspiration for her philanthropic work- Bill Strickland from Pittsburg (4:45) Discusses doing work in Kalamazoo with urban communities, working on the “front line” in the “real world” (9:20) Describes how working in philanthropy has influenced her understanding of and relation to the world and her community (13:30) Fetzer Institute, discusses a disconnect between family and friends outside of philanthropic work, a different sensibility to those that are not part of their community (15:45) Discusses surprises she has encountered in work of philanthropy. Having to turn down grantees has been harder than she thought. High standards have been selfimposed due to importance of work (20:15) Discusses how she copes with difficulties and stress of work (21:30) Discusses what she would have done differently in her career in philanthropy (23:00) Describes difference between grant-making and community initiatives. The role of the Kalamazoo Community Foundation in community initiative work (28:00) Most challenging and pride filled work that she has been involved with. Challenge Day- initiative to remove bullying from school- program based out of California (32:00) “How did you first hear about the Challenge Day program?” She did work in Bangor High School outside of Kalamazoo County, Michigan. Hopes to do Challenge Day program in every school in Kalamazoo County (37:00) Carrie describes what she learned as a facilitator at a Challenge Day in a local school �(38:00) Excited to bring stories of Challenge Day experience to local donors (40:00) Deborah talks about what she hopes is ahead for her future in philanthropy work � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/76b6e2c089c7038d839112f5b09c4cde.mp3 63f22bc7482c98109dbc03b9700ad77e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interviews Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Description An account of the resource The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) was initiated in 2006 as an innovative partnership between the Council of Michigan Foundations, StoryCorps, Michigan Radio and the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership at Grand Valley State University to create an oral history of Michigan philanthropy. Additional video interviews were created by the Johnson Center for Philanthropy to add to the depth and breadth of the collection. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/516">Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) (JCPA-08). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Sound Text Moving Image Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf video/mp4 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2006-2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Johnson Center for Philantrhopy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource StoryCorps (Project) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08_Erway-Higgins Title A name given to the resource Conversation with Carrie Pickett Erway and Deborah Higgins Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Erway, Carrie Pickett Higgins, Deborah Description An account of the resource Carrie Pickett Erway, Senior Community Investment Officer at the Kalamazoo Community Foundation, tells colleague Deborah Higgins, Program Associate at The Fetzer Institute, about how she entered the field of philanthropy as an intern and ended up as program officer. Carrie also talks about grantmaking's challenges - like turning down grantees - but also positives like participating as a facilitator at a local Challenge Day activity at Bangor High School. Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Fetzer Institute Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives, Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives, Council of Michigan Foundations StoryCorp Interviews Relation A related resource Johnson Center Philanthropy Collection (JCPA-08) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sound Portraits Productions StoryCorps (Project) Michigan Radio, Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-10-16 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b2e510a4961dce7b8ecee8a203c6cddf.pdf 2edc04e01591c107ef457037da12d794 PDF Text Text The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interview Log Sheet Storyteller: John Engberts Interviewer: Mondy Jamshidi Date: 10/16/06 Time: 42:50 Facilitator: Elaine D. Location: CMF- Kalamazoo (1:00) Talk about how they’ve been friends since High School (1:15) When John first became involved in Pace Jam, he had been in a lot of fights, had to go to court (2:13) Describes relationship he was in right before he joined Peace Jam (4:52) He describes what Peace Jam is- brings Nobel laureates to Kalamazoo high schools (6:00) Met Archbishop Desmond Tutu who talked about ending apartheid (7:08) 10th anniversary conference of Peace Jam, Dali Lama attended in Denver, how it had an impart on students who go (10:35) His favorite project through Peace Jam (12:45) What impact he thinks Peace Jam service projects have on Kalamazoo (14:32) Describes his childhood- violent alcoholic father, killed his mom when he was 3, Josh had to watch “I made a decision I never wanted to be like my Dad” (16:30) Peace Jam provides and outlet (17:35) Mondy talks about how proud he is of Josh, Josh talks about how helpful Mondy is; “Most inspirational person” (19:50) Josh talks about being taught that showing emotion is considered a sign of weakness (20:32) His adoptive dad committed suicide- his reaction, his sisters’ reaction, mom’s reaction (23:56) How his life changed since Peace Jam (24:40) His birth dad is getting out of jail soon, learning how to deal with stress productively �(25:15) Josh had an eating disorder in high school, wasn’t eating, gained 40 pounds since joining Peace Jam, also no more headaches/ thanks to Mondy’s massage skills- more about dealing with eating disorder and support from Peace Jam (29:00) Mondy talks about Peace Jam “a little slice of heaven” (30:14) How he dealt with Columbine- he lost a couple of friends n the shootinghasn’t watched TV at home since that day (33:20) Hard to go to 10th anniversary conference because it was in Denver, ran into another friends who was a survivor and that made it easier (36:55) How he ended up at Peace Jam, people donated money so he could pay to go to the conference (39:00) How they met and became friend- they even have the same birthday (41:55) Mondy reflects on memories and moments they’ve shared � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a01940d69c5d9e80105c23516936b008.mp3 448c8641975562d7b00dbdc765f2d405 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interviews Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Description An account of the resource The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) was initiated in 2006 as an innovative partnership between the Council of Michigan Foundations, StoryCorps, Michigan Radio and the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership at Grand Valley State University to create an oral history of Michigan philanthropy. Additional video interviews were created by the Johnson Center for Philanthropy to add to the depth and breadth of the collection. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/516">Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) (JCPA-08). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Sound Text Moving Image Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf video/mp4 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2006-2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Johnson Center for Philantrhopy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource StoryCorps (Project) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08_Engberts-Jamshidi Title A name given to the resource Conversation with Joshua Engberts and Mondenna Jamshidi Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Engberts, Joshua Jamshidi, Mondenna Description An account of the resource Longtime friends Mondenna Jamshidi and Joshua Engberts talk about PeaceJam - a project supported by The Fetzer Institute of Kalamazoo, Michigan and others - and the healing role it has played in Joshua's life as he dealt with a difficult childhood and adolescence. Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Fetzer Institute PeaceJam (Organization) Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives, Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives, Council of Michigan Foundations StoryCorp Interviews Relation A related resource Johnson Center Philanthropy Collection (JCPA-08) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sound Portraits Productions StoryCorps (Project) Michigan Radio, Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-10-16 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/64fdb22b68ed0af682e0dbfa38c8668a.pdf 2982799b858acb3aca316f3efb2d3067 PDF Text Text The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interview Log Sheet Storyteller: Edward Downing Interviewer: George Bearup Date: 6/25/07 Time: 42:32 Facilitator: N. Pumilia Location: Traverse City, Michigan (1:20) Remembering 25 years of the Traverse City Rotary Charity (3:28) Discuss how oil changed the rotary club (3:52) Oil/gas distinction (4:42) How the integrity of the club changed after the oil was discovered (5:43) Divide between Rotary Club and Rotary Charities (8:00) Bearup was the President at the 25th Anniversary organization (9:40) Seed money for community foundations (11:10) Discuss the Interlochen Charities (11:52) Discuss the difficulty of giving away money (12:45) Difference between the modern approach- investigate (13:45) Discuss the close oversight and mentorship with the organizations that money is given to (15:08) Rotary Community Foundations, conserve land. T.A.R.T. Trails (15:50) Help efficiency and effectiveness of grantees (organizations to aid rotary) (17:09) Discuss when the board started thinking of the wells going dry (18:30) Discuss the strategic planning process that has most benefited the future (22:40) Talk about the challenges that the Rotary Charities face (25:29) Preserving the integrity of the organization (26:30) Discuss the restoration of the Park Place Hotel, revitalize the area (27:30) The future development of the downtown area and how to keep it together �(28:34) Discuss his favorite grant: Paper Works that employed disabled citizens, Dow Family (31:44) Main intense areas: Recreation, water, sports, education, arts and culture, water quality (40:00) Discuss the lawyer that negotiated 40% of the revenue from the oil wells, around $42 million � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/da29328c38da973d2f3726ea0429cd63.mp3 087a812c4e898f9869d16702ecd7a551 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interviews Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Description An account of the resource The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) was initiated in 2006 as an innovative partnership between the Council of Michigan Foundations, StoryCorps, Michigan Radio and the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership at Grand Valley State University to create an oral history of Michigan philanthropy. Additional video interviews were created by the Johnson Center for Philanthropy to add to the depth and breadth of the collection. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/516">Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) (JCPA-08). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Sound Text Moving Image Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf video/mp4 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2006-2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Johnson Center for Philantrhopy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource StoryCorps (Project) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08_Downing-Bearup Title A name given to the resource Conversation with Edward Downing and George Bearup Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Downing, Edward Bearup, George Description An account of the resource Rotary Charities of Traverse City Trustee Edward Downing and Former Trustee George Bearup reflect on 25 years of Rotary's work - from the early years and how oil changed the organization to incubating other organizations like the community foundation, NorthSky Nonprofit Network, Grand Traverse Regional Land Conservancy and others. Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Rotary Charities of Traverse City Traverse City (Mich.) Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives, Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives, Council of Michigan Foundations StoryCorp Interviews Relation A related resource Johnson Center Philanthropy Collection (JCPA-08) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sound Portraits Productions StoryCorps (Project) Michigan Radio, Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2007-06-25 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9146880634b3324cb115c7f97dff76ac.pdf 996dd372feab850dc95a1c3b2a907404 PDF Text Text The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interview Log Sheet Storyteller: Chris T. Christ Interviewer: Brenda L Hunt Date: 10/27/08 Time: Facilitator: Naomi Greene Location: Grand Rapids, MI (0:00) Introductions of Brenda and Chris (0:43) Brenda asks how Christ became involved in philanthropy; Chris talks about his mother; working for the March of Dimes; Exchange Club Dental Fund; Battle Creek (3:11) Chris talks about working for the Kellogg Foundation (3:58) Chris talks about working for the Kendall Foundation; Battle Creek Community Foundation (5:29) Chris talks about helping others; meeting with others and organizations who help people. Chris talks about his wife’s involvement with philanthropy (7:56) Brenda asks him about the most significant achievement Chris has made; Chris talks about working t bring a senior residence center. He remembers bringing two hospitals together (11:03) Chris talks about the Catholic/Protestant hospital merger in Battle Creek, MI (12:36) Brenda asks “What was the most significant thing you saw on the board of the Kellogg Foundation?” Chris talks about allowing for spouses to travel with the trustees, meeting people overseas’ Nelson Mandela, Bishop Tutu (15:18) Chris remembers visiting the prison Nelson Mandela was incarcerated in, South Africa (16:55) Brenda asks Chris about his career as an attorney and helping people plan estates; Chris talks about working with people who want to use their estate for philanthropic purposes (19:12) Chris talks about his legacy through his work (19:49) Chris talks about what he would do if he had his own foundation, helping youth, Community foundations dyslexia (21:45) Chris talks about wanting to go on vacation with his family; “sharing the wealth” �(22:59) Chris talks about one of his mentors; becoming a trustee in the Kellogg Foundation (24:49) Chris talks about why he loves working for the Kellogg Foundation; Salzburg Seminar (26:46) He talks about his parents; immigrating from Greece, becoming American � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d8d3019efcbf46c5e9bc7488bdb91796.mp3 61f08361381a8b05e8370f89b32c1598 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interviews Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Description An account of the resource The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) was initiated in 2006 as an innovative partnership between the Council of Michigan Foundations, StoryCorps, Michigan Radio and the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership at Grand Valley State University to create an oral history of Michigan philanthropy. Additional video interviews were created by the Johnson Center for Philanthropy to add to the depth and breadth of the collection. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/516">Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) (JCPA-08). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Sound Text Moving Image Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf video/mp4 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2006-2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Johnson Center for Philantrhopy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource StoryCorps (Project) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08_Christ-Hunt Title A name given to the resource Conversation with Chris T. Christ and Brenda L. Hunt Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Christ, Chris T. Hunt, Brenda L. Description An account of the resource Brenda L. Hunt, President & CEO, Battle Creek Community Foundation (BCCF), talks with her good friend and foundation attorney Chris T. Christ about his involvement in philanthropy working with BCCF, the Kendall Foundation and the W.K. Kellogg Foundation; what he hopes to leave as his legacy; and his Greek heritage. Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives, Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives, Council of Michigan Foundations StoryCorp Interviews Relation A related resource Johnson Center Philanthropy Collection (JCPA-08) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sound Portraits Productions StoryCorps (Project) Michigan Radio, Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2008-10-15 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e4bfab2b709ffe8b7d8e0af510db9c14.pdf aad6e9ce47d137423b071422bac06614 PDF Text Text The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interview Log Sheet Storyteller: Thomas F. Beech Interviewer: Bonnie Allen Date: 10/16/06 Time: 37:33 Facilitator: N. Pumilia Location: Kalamazoo (1:15) Apache Corporation TB working in Minneapolis, MN. Met the head of the Minneapolis Foundation, a philanthropic organization. Now works at the Fetzer Institute (3:30) Discuss his transition from business world to philanthropy (5:00) Describe what practices non-profit could adapt from business world (8:00) Discuss his early mentors and guides, learning forgiveness, listening, sense of humor, Pastor from Catholic Church: John Gardener, taught that dialogue was most important aspect of philanthropic work (12:30) Describes work in Ft. Worth, Texas With Johnny and Shirley Lewis, and obstacles they overcame (14:30) Advice to young people interested in philanthropic work. Effective work is done by those who are passionate about what they do (19:00) Discusses issues with the people approaching those involved in philanthropic work, a level of discomfort around the issue of money (23:00) Power that comes from having money can be a difficult aspect of being a philanthropist (25:30) Heart of philanthropy, grew out of courage to teach: a program designed to teach teachers how to teach from their own unique person (27:30) Retreats take to encourage dialogue and storytelling amongst groups of co-workers (29:00) work with law and society has work in Kalamazoo (30:00) Discusses how he came to work for Fetzer Institute. Focused on the “power of love and forgiveness” reconciling inner and outer life, what is deeply important to us to how/where we live, who we live with (34:00) Discusses connectedness and similarity disconcerted between mission and work of Fetzer with other organizations �(35:00) Talks about the importance of story telling and individual experiences to the work � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d18c3b007eec62c93cc30a056f30fce9.mp3 9fe9e6399d6581536f522e8350255442 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interviews Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Description An account of the resource The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) was initiated in 2006 as an innovative partnership between the Council of Michigan Foundations, StoryCorps, Michigan Radio and the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership at Grand Valley State University to create an oral history of Michigan philanthropy. Additional video interviews were created by the Johnson Center for Philanthropy to add to the depth and breadth of the collection. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/516">Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) (JCPA-08). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Sound Text Moving Image Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf video/mp4 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2006-2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Johnson Center for Philantrhopy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource StoryCorps (Project) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08_Beech-Allen Title A name given to the resource Conversation with Tom Beech and Bonnie Allen Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Beech, Tom Description An account of the resource Bonnie Allen, attorney at the Center for Healing and the Law, interviews her colleague Tom Beech, President & CEO of The Fetzer Institute in Kalamazoo, Michigan, about his history in philanthropy and what he's learned along the way, including: dialogue being the most important aspect of philanthropy; the most effective work is done by people who are passionate about what they do; that the power that comes from having philanthropic dollars can be difficult; and that storytelling is critical to the work of philanthropy. Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Fetzer Institute Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives, Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives, Council of Michigan Foundations StoryCorp Interviews Relation A related resource Johnson Center Philanthropy Collection (JCPA-08) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sound Portraits Productions StoryCorps (Project) Michigan Radio, Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-10-16 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/faf4121d67d13c4f50577a1ed36793d4.pdf dfcdda004053a0ecea192f9d345c0366 PDF Text Text The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interview Log Sheet Storyteller: Kathy Agard Interviewer: Jim Kelley Date: 10/10/06 Time: 39:01 Facilitator: Elaine D. Location CMF-Kalamazoo (0:55) How Kathy got involved in CMF, talks about getting debate scholarship- 1st time she learned about philanthropy (2:45) Jim talks about how he became involved in philanthropy, his backgroundFord Foundation Scholarship to U Chicago (4:15) His mentor, John Gardener- When he and Kathy first met through CMF (5:20) Talk about how they aren’t able to go back and thank people- motivated then to pass on philanthropy through Learning to Give- Youth grantmaking, talks about ignorance of philanthropy (7:37) Kathy describes the context for starting Learning to Give, what was going on in the U.S. and around the world (9:30) Role of schools, Jim’s work with National Board Certification (for teachers)- talks about education in the U.S. and how he became involved in Learning to Give (12:45) Kathy talks about what Jim brought to the project (14:25) What Jim learned from teachers, talks about his values for education and democracy- how it affects his philanthropy- how it relates to constitutional rights- Learning to Give empowerment not just charity (17:45) Knight Foundation- their work to educate about 1st Amendment (19:00) More about John Gardener’s influence on Jim (President of Carnegie Corporation of New York and was in LBJ’s cabinet), what Jim learned working with John (22:10) The unusual community and network of foundations in Michigan and Kathy’s vision for the future (23:23) Dottie Johnson- head of CMF, her role as leader in Kellogg (25:08) Relationship between market economy and philanthropy �(28:00) Young people: interested in philanthropy but disillusioned by government- need for all sectors in the U.S. to be strong (for profit, government and non-profit). Jim wants more freedom to go between sectors (31:30) Kathy’s goals at Johnson Center at Grand Valley State University, Jim’s goals in his consultative work (33:15) Jim hopes her center will develop new leaders (34:05) His work with Asia society, his other interests (technology in schools) (37:05) Their hopes for their grandchildren, what they’ll know about philanthropy (38:40) Jim mentions the idealism of youth � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/664c1dc7aa33be6364dccd1f4f4cedaa.mp3 e2eb294815b19e1dca194ac7ac552487 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project Interviews Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Family foundations--Michigan Charities--Michigan Description An account of the resource The Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) was initiated in 2006 as an innovative partnership between the Council of Michigan Foundations, StoryCorps, Michigan Radio and the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership at Grand Valley State University to create an oral history of Michigan philanthropy. Additional video interviews were created by the Johnson Center for Philanthropy to add to the depth and breadth of the collection. Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/516">Michigan Philanthropy Oral History Project (MPOHP) (JCPA-08). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource Sound Text Moving Image Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf video/mp4 Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2006-2008 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Johnson Center for Philantrhopy Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource StoryCorps (Project) Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-08_Agard-Kelly Title A name given to the resource Conversation with Kathy Agard and James Kelly Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Agard, Kathy Kelly, James Description An account of the resource Kathryn Agard, Executive Director of the Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership and James Kelly, Co-Chair of Learning to Give, talk about their involvement in creating Learning to Give - a Council of Michigan Foundations supporting organization educating youth about the importance of philanthropy, the civil society sector and civic engagement. Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society--Personal narratives Charities--Michigan Council of Michigan Foundations Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Women Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives, Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives, Council of Michigan Foundations StoryCorp Interviews Relation A related resource Johnson Center Philanthropy Collection (JCPA-08) Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Sound Portraits Productions StoryCorps (Project) Michigan Radio, Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2006-10-16 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/882edba04cf82be7861f8dc2046c7293.pdf fb332636d8bcdc25170e1ad5e7d8f3da PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Steeve Buckridge Interviewers: Kevin Fraser, Erica Judd and Travis Pemberton Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 10/27/2011 Biography and Description Steeve Buckridge was born in Kingston, Jamaica. He became a professor at Grand Valley State University several years ago. He is an Associate Professor of African and Caribbean History and Associate Faculty in African and African American Studies. Also this year he became GVSU’s Director of Area Studies. In 2004, he published his first novel, The Language of Dress: Resistance and Accommodation in Jamaica, 1780-1890. This book discusses how freed and enslaved women used their fashion and style of dress as a symbol of resistance to slavery and accommodation to white culture in pre- and post- emancipation society. He discusses the differences between discrimination in Jamaica and discrimination in Grand Rapids and some of his experiences with it. Transcript JUDD: To start out, just want some basic information like, just something about yourself; where you were born, what your life was like growing up BUCKRIDGE: Hmm, alright so JUDD: Full name and everything BUCKRIDGE: (Heavy accent) My name is Steeve Buckridge, I never reveal my middle name so sorry JUDD: (slight laughter) That’s alright BUCKRIDGE: And I was born in Kingston, Jamaica. Andgrew up in Jamaica. At age eleven I went to boarding school in the center of the island in a place called Mandeval up in the mountains. It was a very beautiful school; an old English school and I liked it there and I would go home on holidays and weekends. And my childhood in Jamaica was idealic it was fun it was great.holidays, travelling, visiting family; hmmm I was not from a poor home so Iwas very fortunate that my parents provided for us. And I did well in school, I was an A student and enjoyed my school years and then studying in Jamaica is, we follow the British system at least in those days, so education was and still is very very rigid, very hierarchical,its very competitive and then I find that European people tend to take education for granted JUDD: (supportive) Right Page 1 �BUCKRIDGE: It’s not like that in all the places, so to get into high school you had to pass an exam, it was a government exam. When you get into high school then they streamline you, the brightest students and in the brightest are given a different set of courses then those who are not too bright. and then I did all of that and then up to fifth form, did my O levels, passed my O levels; in high school these are government exams.and O levels are important because they determine if you can get a job or not. If you fail your O levels you can’t get a job you have to do them over. It’s not like here where you just get a diploma from school it doesn’t work like that JUDD: (laughter) Right BUCKRIDGE: For us you must pass certain subjects for you to get a job, math and English is usually required and after you pass those then you can apply for a job and if you want to go on to university then you have to apply for A levels, which is like thirteenth and fourteenth grade which you guys don’t have in this country JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: Or twelfth and thirteenth grade something like that. So in that level you’re doing pre university courses and you spend two years in that program in high school and so when I was in, it’s called six form, so when I was in six form I did very well I was head of student government, I was also head boy. Head boy is this British concept defined in British schools where there is a head boy and a head girl that’s in charge of the prefects, prefects are those who maintain discipline JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: And so the head boy islike the most, it is considered to be the I don’t know how to describe this because it’s so different then what you have in America JUDD: (laughter) Right BUCKRIDGE: Is the most,ugh, the head boys influential the head boy is important the head boy is someone who’s chosen because of his academic excellence and performance JUDD: So were you chosen? Or nominated? BUCKRIDGE: No you are chosen by the faculty JUDD: Wow BUCKRIDGE: By the student by the faculty by the student, not the student, by the by the school faculty JUDD: (supportive) Okay BUCKRIDGE: So it’s an honor to be a head boy JUDD: (Supportive) Yeah BUCKRIDGE: And so every year there’s a head boy there’s a head girl, and then you have prefects and then you havethe prefects are in charge of discipline within the school and they work closely with the Page 2 �teachers to maintain discipline.and so then in six form you do pre university courses so for us in the British system when you go on to university you only spend three years in university, because you have already done JUDD: Right, your others, got it BUCKRIDGE: Right, in high school, yep. I don’t know what else to tell you; I mean I dabbled a lot as a youngster, my parents believed in taking us travellingI don’t know what else to tell you. JUDD: No that’s okay that’s a lot of good information, so how would you describe your personal identity? It’s kind of a tough question BUCKRIDGE: My personal identity in terms of my race? JUDD: Well just how you would personally describe yourself, like what is, how are you different, yeah I guess your diversity I guess BUCKRIDGE: Well race is structured differently for us so, but in Jamaica most Jamaicans are dark skin or black, and then you have a small percentage which are my color which you would call, in the Caribbean they would call it just brown skin or light skin, or Mulattos. I consider myself first and foremost to be a Jamaican JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: Because for us nationality is more important, race is secondary JUDD: Mhmm BUCKRIDGE: So I’m Jamaican, I’m preferred to be Jamaicanmy father was English, my mother is Jamaican mixed with dark skin. And as a child growing up diversity was an integral part of my life I mean as a child I was surrounded by Indians from India, my father’s best friend was from India, his family was from India so as a child I was already familiar with Hindu rituals and Hindu holidays. For instance right now it’s Diwali, the festival of lights has been celebrated by Indians and that’s a major festival, it’s the whole notion of when good triumphs over evil. my grandmother’s first husband was Chinese; there is a Chinese community in Jamaica like an Indian community. So my grandmother’s first husband was Chinese and he died while on a journey back to Hong Kong. So after he died she had her first set of kids with him and sent them to Hong Kong to grow up, so they were raised in China. So again as a youngster; and then she met my grandfather Buckridge and then got married a second time, so as a child I had Chinese uncles who spoke Chinese their marriages were pre-arranged JUDD: Is your grandmother Jamaican then? BUCKRIDGE: My grandmother is of English descent JUDD: Oh okay yeah BUCKRIDGE: Jamaican but of English descent Page 3 �JUDD: Okay, okay so you kind of grew up in a diverse area okay well, so was there any time in your life growing up or in adulthood where you could of felt mistreated because of BUCKRIDGE: My race? JUDD: Yeah BUCKRIDGE: No JUDD: No? Hmm BUCKRIDGE: In fact, in the Jamaican context racial lines also follow class lines, so you find that people who are lighter in complexion like I am would be considered as upper class so I never had those issues. I did not understand racism until I came into this country JUDD: When did you come to America? BUCKRIDGE: Officially I don’t know, well I used to travel back and forth as a youngster but officially moved here in the early eighty’s JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: Eighty six I think somewhere in there. Now that doesn’t mean we don’t have racism in Jamaica and the Caribbean we do but it’s, as I said race is defined as differently for us JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: But again, you see in the Caribbean contextfor instance in Jamaica we only have very few numbers, very few numbers of white Jamaicans so the numbers too small to have an economic impact JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: So the society overall is dominated by people who are light skinned or brown skinned and they make up about I don’t know maybe twelve percent of the population, maybe less. The vast majority of Jamaicans are black or dark skinned. JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: So in my country I would not be classified as black JUDD: Oh okay, so when you moved here did it feel, did people treat you differently, did it feel harder? BUCKRIDGE: No not really because they see me more as I don’t know JUDD: Did you come here as a professor? BUCKRIDGE: Mmn, I came here I studied here I did some of my studies here. But no I it was more out of curiosity JUDD: Mhmm Page 4 �BUCKRIDGE: Because I had an accent, foreigner, I didn’t have the kinds of experiences that African Americans had in this country and what they endured, that’s not a part of my reality, I didn’t come from a family where I saw that sort of thing. Now maybe my mother’s generation they would of encountered racism in the colonial days JUDD: Mhmm BUCKRIDGE: But in terms of my generation, no I didn’t have those problems. But when I came to the US I clearly saw racism, not necessarily happening to me but to my friends, colleagues. I have been racially profiled; in airports I have been harassed JUDD: Oh right BUCKRIDGE: Because people assume that I’m Middle Eastern which doesn’t make sense to me but that has happened to me yes. JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: And that has happened to me right here in Grand Rapids where I have been harassed because they thought I was from Egypt or somewhere. But in my country, no I never had that, it was never an issue for me. JUDD: Okay, so I know I does kind of seem as you grew up as the higher or more comfortable or more acceptable over there which is good so it feels like kind of were more racially more just judge people a lot over here. And I kind of see that a lot from people who have moved from like where you’ve come from and like I know I have actually met a professor who is from South Africa and he came here and he said he was treated a lot differently now. Okay so when you have seen people who are discriminated because of the difference, how does that affect you? BUCKRIDGE: Of course, because I think it’s wrong, it’s wrong and if there’s a situation that I can step in to correct the wrong I will I see it with my students its wrong and I believe that someone should stand up for their rights and if you see other people being abused you should step up to the plate and do something about it JUDD: Is there an actual experience you can remember that you’re comfortable sharing? BUCKRIDGE:mmm JUDD: Put you on the spot BUCKRIDGE: No, I just can’t think of anything off the top of my head why yes I have had friends who have applied for jobs who were African American who were denied, or try to rent a place and were denied. JUDD: Yeah BUCKRIDGE: With the opportunity to rent but then I would go there and ask and I would be offered the place. Page 5 �JUDD: Okay, so it’s not so much for you as it is for the people you’ve seen BUCKRIDGE: Right, because right yeah so JUDD: Do you think it’s because they have darker skin then? BUCKRIDGE: In some cases I think so and some cases it’s because they’re African American JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: I am sort of this exotic person from Jamaica JUDD: (laughter) They are interested in you! BUCKRIDGE: Yes, from Jamaica I don’t have the same history and the same baggage some would say. JUDD: Right, right well that’s good,have you ever seen any violent treatment to people who have you ever witnessed or been a part of or something like that BUCKRIDGE: (negative response) Nmmnn Nmmnnn well not in this country, yeah but no, no JUDD: In your country have you? BUCKRIDGE: Well no I have seen violent situations in terms of civil unresting and political elections, and Jamaica has a history of having political turmoil. So I’ve seen people attacked but that’s because of their views or their ideological stands yeahnot because of their skin color. But we do have racism in the Caribbean, in fact it is badh it is bad because you have you see in my culture there is this belief that, that that if you want to make it in society you have to have brown complexion. So now you find these dark skinned people who are bleaching, bleaching has become popular with the youngsters and women, and you can tell if you go to public setting you can see that they have been bleaching because from here down its light and from the neck down it’s much darker. so bleaching has become a problemin many areas in the Caribbean in terms of people being attacked because of their race no. What you do find in Jamaica is that my culture is very, very homophobic. And people will be murdered for being gay and I have lost three friends who were murdered because they were homosexuals. So Jamaican society is very, very homophobic and that’s because of theh the hate rhetoric that’s spoken in the churches because in Jamaica, Jamaica is considered to be one of the most homophobic places in the Caribbean. So what you find happening is that the church, we do not have the separation of church and state, so you find that there is the Christianity is the official religion and Church of England is the official church. But the Evangelical Churches are the ones that are very dominant and so they are the ones that are sort of a hate speech about homosexuality and so forth and so there you will find people who have been murdered or have been killed for just being gay JUDD: Well, and that’s a I mean a big diversity issue here too, I mean everywhere really I feel like BUCKRIDGE: Yeah but here, yeah that’s right I mean there are people, Mathew Shepard was murdered for being gay. So people in this country have been murdered but we must also remember why that’s the case, you gay people in this country do have a public space Page 6 �JUDD: Yeah definitely BUCKRIDGE: In the Caribbean it’s not like that I mean in Jamaica its illegal, it’s ten years in prison met with hard labor JUDD: Oh my goodness BUCKRIDGE: Right, and normally the laws are not tested because if they catch you, nine out of the ten times they try to kill you, you have street justice. Homosexuality is viewed as an abomination and it is not socially accepted in Jamaican society. Now if you are elite and are gay then you can easily get away and always pay your way through the system but for poor young men it is horrifying because they are the ones who usually get beaten up sometimes they are killed. And once in a while you have some elite person who is killed for either for their activism or they are in the wrong place at the wrong time. And then young women who are alleged to be gay they’re usually raped alright because there is this notion that if they are raped then that will get them to JUDD: To forget it or kind of change back? BUCKRIDGE: Right, to change to dating men or to being with men, so Jamaican society is very homophobic, and you have for instance Jamaica, the Bahamas, St Vincent, the Guanines (unclear), all the English speaking Caribbean countries are very homophobic because they have those old British codes on their law books which decrees that homosexuality is illegal. And after homosexuality was made legal in England Britain tried to pressure their former colonies in the Caribbean to do the same, some of them eased up on the restrictions but Jamaica has refused, Jamaica is an independent nation so England can no longer tell us what to do, even though the Queen of England is head of statebut yeah but that is one of the major, major problems in terms of diversity issues JUDD: Well that’s a big discriminant issue too and how is that like, obviously its affected you personally because you said you lost three friends, so I mean that’s a big issue BUCKRIDGE: Right JUDD: It’s not just race BUCKRIDGE: Right but the whole though is that you’ll find that people will cover it up with a mass or the church and religion, and you have ministers who are preaching, there is a minister in Jamaica his name is Blair he’s advocating for public floggings of homosexualsso there is so in many quarters there’s no sympathy because it’s seen as immoral, as wrong, because of the strong religious flavor JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: Because again we do not have the separation of church and state and the biros association of Jamaica and the Jamaican government has made it very clear that they will never amend the constitution to make gay marriage legal or homosexuality legal in Jamaica JUDD: So growing up, where you familiar with that? Or was it more when you got older that you kind of understood Page 7 �BUCKRIDGE: When I was a child I knew people that were gay but I never really understood what it meant until as I got older JUDD: And you started to see it more? BUCKRIDGE: Well no, when I left Jamaica I started to pertuanate and started to wonder oh so that’s why so and so wasn’t married and why all the women and people would gossip and say things JUDD: Mhmm BUCKRIDGE: But no it is bad, tourists going to Jamaica usually are warned and there is a travel ban for gay people travelling to Jamaica like Jamaica is a beautiful place but it’s not a friendly place for gay people, if your white and you’re going as a gay couple you are okay as long as you don’t show public affection being kissy kissy lovey dovey in public JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: That’s a no no JUDD: Well and still you’re not able to express how you really are feeling so it’s still its discriminative BUCKRIDGE: Right of course, but Jamaicans would consider it offensive they would see it as an insult to the culture JUDD: Right, so your personal views are different then the way that the views of the religion in Jamaica BUCKRIDGE: Yeah JUDD: So have you always, was your family always, is your family religious? BUCKRIDGE: Many of them yes, yeah, but again going back to what I said earlier I grew up with a lot of diversity JUDD: Right, true BUCKRIDGE: My upbringing was very different JUDD: Mhm BUCKRIDGE: So I was always surrounded by people in different cultures and so forth, and my family was in the fashion business so I knew people in the art world and in the art community, so I knew gay people from an early age JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: But my parents always taught us to be accepting of everyone, to be appreciative, to be open, to be tolerant, to be welcoming. And so that was the home I grew up in but that’s not the large Jamaican society JUDD: Right, Page 8 �BUCKRIDGE: You weren’t expecting that were you JUDD: (laughter) No, honestly I didn’t even know what to expect coming here I’ve never done one of these before BUCKRIDGE: And now you have a lot of information JUDD: Well, I do and that’s I mean, an oral history really though all she wants is just kind of basic information BUCKRIDGE: Yeahh JUDD: Which is good I’m glad that I didn’t know what to expect,okay well we kind of covered some of that. So actually, I heard you wrote a book BUCKRIDGE: Yes JUDD: The guy next door was telling me, he showed me your book too BUCKRIDGE: Oh okay JUDD: Do you want to tell me about that? BUCKRIDGE: Sure, the next one is coming out soon, what do you want to know about it? JUDD: Anything, tell me about it, I’ve never heard anything about it I just found out today you’ve wrote a book BUCKRIDGE: Oh that book is titled the Language Address and it’s about the African cultural characteristics in clothing that were brought to the Caribbean by African slaves. And so I basically analyzed slave clothing, and I try to figure out why they dress the way they did and the policy surrounding clothing during the days of slavery. and I got involved in it becauseI’ve always loved clothing and fashion, my father was a tailor, and my father studied at FIT in New York. And my mother was a dress maker and she sewed as a hobby, she’s a nurse by profession and so clothing was what I JUDD: Kind of what you were used to BUCKRIDGE: Right I grew up with it as a child, so I worked inin the fashion business for a while; I had my first modeling gig when I was sixteen JUDD: Oh you modeled? BUCKRIDGE: here, this photograph was, this is a newspaper article that they did on me, so this is when oh this says seventeen, I think it was maybe sixteen, I did photo shoots for the Jamaica Tourist Board. Then then I gave up modeling because I didn’t really like it JUDD: No? Page 9 �BUCKRIDGE: No I didn’t like it and then much, years later I got into the fashion business and started to work as an illustrator. So I would illustrate, draw, and then I left the industrywhile I was illustrating I worked for several fashion houses and thenI let’s see I had, I would design clothes for friends and so forth. Had some famous people wear some of my outfits because (unclear) Miss World, 1987 wore a gown that I designed,Miss Venezuela, 1989 also wore one of my outfits. But it was a long time ago I mean ages ago JUDD: Woww BUCKRIDGE: And then I gave that up, and then I decided to pursue academia but before that I was also working, I worked in hospitality I worked in hotels while I was going to school. And then I decided I wanted to do my doctorate and when I decided on that I wanted to combine my love of fashion with my PHD. So my studies, my doctorate is actually in, it’s in African history but my research is on fashion it’s on clothing JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: So even though I’m no longer in the industry I am still its still part of me in a way JUDD: Still associated with it, which I kind of cool because you’re kind of keeping a grip on your past which is cool BUCKRIDGE: And so my interest in diversity and cultures and clothing from around the world, this is one of the things that propelled me to travel a lot and to write and to be fascinated with diversity, I think diversity is so important to me I think its diversity that keeps the world going. I think diversity is essential for us to learn about each other, I think diversity is key to understanding who we areI would not want to live in a world where everyone thinks the same, looks the same, has the same beliefs, dresses the same can you imagine how boring that world would be JUDD: Mhmm BUCKRIDGE: If you and I had the same Ideas, we think the same way JUDD: We wouldn’t need to do this interview BUCKRIDGE: Your parents think the same way, everybody felt and thought and looked the same, wouldn’t that be crazy JUDD: Mhmm BUCKRIDGE: I wouldn’t want to be in that world JUDD: No I agree, is that kind of why you were interested in fashion you think? Because of, or maybe it was fashion that kind of shaped the way you think because it’s so unique BUCKRIDGE: I think fashion shaped the way I think and carry myself but also it’s an intrigal part of my culture, Jamaicans are fascinated with clothing and so as a child I saw that, we have rituals surrounding Page 10 �clothing, rituals about certain ways that you should dress all of those things are taken seriously in my culture JUDD: Woww BUCKRIDGE: Yeah JUDD: When was this book published? BUCKRIDGE: I don’t know 2005 I guess, somewhere in there and then the next one will be out shortly JUDD: What’s the next one, is it about the same kind of things? BUCKRIDGE: It’s about clothing but it’s a different, it’s looking at bark cloth or textiles made from the barks of trees and how how it would, these bark textiles are used to make sophisticated outfits JUDD: And do what you’re naming it or the title of your books going to be BUCKRIDGE: the next one, it’s titledthe making of African bark cloth, the making of African bark cloth in the Caribbean JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: And I look at three countries, Jamaica, Cuba, and Haiti JUDD: Good thing nobody has to read my hand writing but me because I don’t know if that would be possible, okay,well that’s really cool. So have you always like wanted to write I guess is that kind of, have you always been interested in it, did you know that you were going to end up writing a book or is this kind of just BUCKRIDGE: Hmm I think at some point, in time I’m hoping to do some short stories and I’m thinking of writing some other things yeah JUDD: All to do with clothing and stuff BUCKRIDGE: Maybe yeah, or other things, we’ll see I haven’t decided yet JUDD: Yeah well that’s cool BUCKRIDGE: I’m working on a memoir JUDD: Really? BUCKRIDGE: Yeah, so we’ll see how that goes. It’s about more of my travels in Africa, that’s what it’s about JUDD: Okay, how many times have you been, or is it too many to South Africa BUCKRIDGE: No, I’ve been to about twenty five countries in Africa JUDD: Ohh Page 11 �BUCKRIDGE: And worldwide about seventy two countries JUDD: Wow, did you always travel to different countries when you were growing up; you said your parents liked to travel BUCKRIDGE: As a youngster yes, by the time I was what, eighteen, somewhere in there I had seen most of the Caribbean but a lot of my travelling was done after because I’ve always had this desire to see what’s beyond the ocean you’re looking out at the horizon and saying what is out there JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: And so the moment I could travel on my own I did, I mean as a child I would come for holidays to the US and other places but travelling is my passion it’s how you learn it’s how you learn about cultures and I try never to travel as a tourist I try to travel as an adventurer who tries to immerse oneself in the local cultures. Because when you travel as a tourist you’ll always be an outsider JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: You’ll always be on the periphery JUDD: Okay from growing up has there been any, sorry were kind of jumping backwards now but has there been any changes in like, I guess I’m not going to go with diverse race wise but like with homosexuality, has that changed at all over time has that become more lenient as you were living there or less lenient or, in Jamaica with diversity or discrimination against homosexuality because that’s kind of a big thing BUCKRIDGE: Okay no people in, Jamaicans celebrate diversity JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: And they love diversity, we have Chinese in Jamaica, we have Indians JUDD: With race, so they are very racially diverse BUCKRIDGE: Right, diverse, our motto is out of many one people JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: Which reflects the blending and the mixture and we had people, we have Syrians who were brought in we have Lebanese we have Chinese we have Indians but the bulk of Jamaicans are of African descent. We also have people of English descent of Irish descent and Scottish descent but most Jamaicans are black, of African descent. and then you haveh, and then you have this group of people who are brown skin or browning as that’s what they’re calling it’s a term now in popular culture. But when it comes on to sexuality it’s a different thing JUDD: Okay so is it just because of the church or BUCKRIDGE: Yes Page 12 �JUDD: Okay so it’s the religion, so that’s never changed over time it’s always just been BUCKRIDGE: Some of it has gotten worse JUDD: Oh it has gotten worse BUCKRIDGE: But racial diversity is not, is something that’s celebrated; there has never been that problem in Jamaica where so well maybe in the colonial days but not now. Jamaica when it comes to racial diversity is very welcoming and tolerant, sexual diversity, that’s not the case JUDD: Mkay, so what colleges did you attend to, here and there BUCKRIDGE: in terms of studying or teaching at? JUDD: Both BUCKRIDGE: Okay,I did my undergrad and master’s degree in Miami, University of Miami. My doctorate, I spent a year in England at Oxford and then I did my PHD at the Ohio State University in Ohio, Columbus Ohio. THE Ohio State JUDD: (laughter) Oh no BUCKRIDGE: I know you’re a Michigan fan ehh JUDD: (laughter) I am Michigan fan BUCKRIDGE: Sorry JUDD: (laughter) That’s alright, I have Ohio State friends so I’m neutral BUCKRIDGE: Good JUDD: and then how did you end up here? BUCKRIDGE: My job, I’ve, people always ask me that because I’ve lived in so many places and travelled a lot I lived in several countries. But my job, the university recruited me to come hereI love my job I love my students I love being at Grand Valley, I have problems with Grand Rapids JUDD: With? BUCKRIDGE: The city, I haven’t quite connected with it so I leave regularly JUDD: How often? BUCKRIDGE: Of often as I can JUDD: For breaks and BUCKRIDGE: Yeah holidays, summers, long weekends JUDD: What is it about Grand Rapids that Page 13 �BUCKRIDGE: I don’t know, there’s just no sense of belonging JUDD: Oh yeah? BUCKRIDGE: Yeah JUDD: Well I’m not used to this city, so it’s been kind of a new step for me too but I mean I guess you’ve been everywhere so BUCKRIDGE: Yeah there’s no sense of belonging for me, I still feel as an outsider, I haven’t been here all these years, so I don’t have a house here I refuse to buy anything here JUDD: Really? Where do you stay? BUCKRIDGE: Well I have an apartment here but my place is in Miami JUDD: Ohh BUCKRIDGE: This is not my home, this is where I work, home is Miami and Jamaica is home home. So if I say I’m going home it means I’m going home to Miami, my place is in Miami JUDD: Do you go back to Miami a lot? BUCKRIDGE: Mhmm JUDD: Do you go like weekends and stuff? BUCKRIDGE: Sometimes JUDD: Mostly over breaks? BUCKRIDGE: But breaks, and then between like summers I’m in Africa moving around then if I say I’m going home home that’s to Jamaica, like I’m going to Jamaica the end of November JUDD: What’s the occasion? BUCKRIDGE: Just need to get away JUDD: I gotcha BUCKRIDGE: Yeah, I think I’m going for three days JUDD: Wow, that’s a short trip BUCKRIDGE: I know, yeah JUDD: Do your parents still live there then? BUCKRIDGE: My father died when I was sixteen JUDD: Oh I’m sorry Page 14 �BUCKRIDGE: My mother, that’s fine thanks, my mother she lives in Miami, she travels a lot JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: And my family is scattered JUDD: Do you have any brothers and sisters? BUCKRIDGE: Mhmm, there’s seven of us and they’re all in different countries JUDD: Really? BUCKRIDGE: Mhmm JUDD: Where are they? BUCKRIDGE: England, Canada, one just came back from Japan he’s currently in in what is it Atlanta. I forget, they’re always on the go, Jamaica I don’t have much family left in Jamaica we still have property there but not JUDD: Okay so do you go back to your property or do you stay with friends or BUCKRIDGE: When I’m in Jamaica? JUDD: When you go to Jamaica BUCKRIDGE: No I stay with family JUDD: Oh okay BUCKRIDGE: The few family I have left, I have an aunt there and some cousins, that’s about it JUDD: So tell me about your siblings BUCKRIDGE: In terms of what they’re doing? JUDD: Yeah, or what your home life was like growing up with them, were you close with them BUCKRIDGE: Mhmm, were a close knit family, we were very very close, extremely close, we all get along well we try to get together as often as we can, doesn’t always work. My niece got married recently and we were all at her wedding, see that photograph over there the young lady in the green to the right JUDD: Oh yeahhh BUCKRIDGE: She just got married, she married to a Nigerian and that was the wedding and she just changed over into African dress, she lives in London. My brother is in England so that was the first in a long time that we all got together because we were all at the wedding JUDD: When was that? BUCKRIDGE: This was this summer,in June, June 25thso I don’t know what to tell you um Page 15 �JUDD: Well how many sisters and brothers? BUCKRIDGE: Okay, four boys including myself, and three girls JUDD: Where do you stand in that? BUCKRIDGE: I’m in the middle JUDD: Okay, number? What number are you BUCKRIDGE:h fourth JUDD: Okay fourth, do you admire your brothers? Were they big role models? Are they older then how does it go? BUCKRIDGE: One younger and then the others are older JUDD: Brother? BUCKRIDGE: Yeah JUDD: And then are the girls mostly younger then? BUCKRIDGE: One younger the others are older JUDD: Ohhh okay I guess you are fourth so that makes sense,I don’t know, what did you guys do? BUCKRIDGE: Oh okay,h what do they do? JUDD: Mhm BUCKRIDGE: Career wise? JUDD: Yeah sure BUCKRIDGE: One is a lawyer, he’s a barrister our family has several lawyers. he’s a barrister in England, one is an accountant, a financial accountant he has his own firmhe lives in Palm Beach, I sort of forgot about him JUDD: (laughter) BUCKRIDGE: He lives in Palm Beach but he moves around a lot JUDD: Do you not see him that often? BUCKRIDGE: When I go to Miami he’ll come down,who else, one, two. Oh one I have a brother who’s an air traffic controller but he was in the military with Special Forces JUDD: Is he the only one who was in the military in your family? BUCKRIDGE: My grandfather was in the military Page 16 �JUDD: Okay BUCKRIDGE: He fought in World War 1 JUDD: Oh wow BUCKRIDGE: But beyond that no, no one else. and let’s see, my sisters, I have one who’s a paralegal who’s contemplating law school I have another sister who’s a stay at home wife, she gave up her career when she got married, she got married to a diplomat and so they, she gave up her job to be a diplomat’s wife JUDD: Do they have children? BUCKRIDGE: Mhmm, and then I have another sisterh who also gave up her career when she got married. So two sisters are stay at home moms, but they travel a lot. So anyway, one of the things I will share with you isthis past summer my family by my fathers side, they go way back and it’s an old English family in Jamaica and I found out that they had, talking about diversity, that they had slaves through the days of slavery JUDD: Ohh they owned slaves? BUCKRIDGE: Yes, so I come from a family that owns slaves and some members are probably slaves too but it was challenging for me because as a child I heard the stories and I knew the stories, but last summer I actually got the chance to look at the slave registry and so I looked at it, Buckridge, Buckridge, Buckridge all over the place and it really bothered me JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: so that was something I had to deal with in terms of diversity and what does it mean JUDD: What was the race of the slaves that they BUCKRIDGE: Theses were African slaves JUDD: Oh okay so African slaves, and so it bothered you? BUCKRIDGE: Mhm JUDD: Did the rest of your family kind of feel that way? How did your father feel about that too was he BUCKRIDGE: My father was dead by then but I mean these were things that they just all knew but nobody talked about it JUDD: Was he alive when, did he own slaves as a child, was it his family or what BUCKRIDGE: No no no slavery was abolished in 1838 JUDD: Right BUCKRIDGE: So it’s the history of my family, going way back Page 17 �JUDD: On your dad’s side? BUCKRIDGE: Yes, am I giving you too much? JUDD: (laughter) No no this is a lot of good info! Well is there anything else like about your family life you want to talk about or your personal life, or personal achievements or anything your super proud of or not so proud of? BUCKRIDGE: Super proud of? JUDD: Mhmm BUCKRIDGE: I don’t know, my travels, my, I don’t know JUDD: (laughter) BUCKRIDGE: What am I proud of? I don’t know JUDD: Well look at your wall BUCKRIDGE: My family, my friends, what’s other things that I’m proud of? My family JUDD: Your very proud of your family BUCKRIDGE: Yes I’m very proud of my family, yeah I don’t know, that’s an interesting question, I’m proud of my family, my travels, the things that I’ve accomplished, my degrees I guess, that I’ve gotten to this far JUDD: Going back toschooling when you were younger, so was it more of a privilege for you to kind of go on and advance farther with your going on to college and stuff was that kind of harder to do for people your age? Was it harder to get into or was it just you are basically judged on how smart you are or how much you apply yourself BUCKRIDGE: Yeah I think so yeah, but again its very competitive, in this country education is seen as kind of a variety people take it for granted, it’s not like that for us and so not everyone goes to college or university. I would like it to be that way but JUDD: So do you like the system here then that it’s better a right BUCKRIDGE: I think both systems have merits and demerits it depends, this system allows you togo at your own pace there are mechanisms in place to help you. When I was growing up that was not the case and in my system that’s not the case, maybe now they do but back then they didn’t have things like writing centers and skills clinics and stuff JUDD: Mhmm BUCKRIDGE: A few of those things did not exist Page 18 �JUDD: Do you feel like if you grew up here that you would of taken advantage of it more or do you feel like you kind of have that drive BUCKRIDGE: Maybe, maybe not, but that’s hard to tell I think a lot too depends on how you were raised and your upbringing your parentswhere you come fromso I think it all depends and I don’t know if I’m answering your question JUDD: No you are that’s just a vague question BUCKRIDGE: Yeah JUDD: So were you close with your mother at all? BUCKRIDGE: Mhm yeah very close JUDD: Very close with all of your family BUCKRIDGE: Mhmm very close, we talk almost, my mother, we talk almost every other day JUDD: Really, aww that’s good, how often, who do you see most out of your family now would you say BUCKRIDGE: I’m here by myself so I don’t see any of them regularly JUDD: Regularly yeah, do they come to see you though BUCKRIDGE: No, they don’t like it here JUDD: (Laughter) BUCKRIDGE: They would rather me come to them JUDD: And I feel that you would rather go to them too wouldn’t you BUCKRIDGE: Yeah, look at the weather it’s too cold JUDD: I know BUCKRIDGE: Jamaica and Miami are so much warmer JUDD: (Laughter) BUCKRIDGE: Wouldn’t you want to go there with a beach and hangout on the beach JUDD: Yeah oh my gosh, the winter I just can’t handle it here BUCKRIDGE: I know it’s gonna be cold, they’re saying it might be worse this year, it’s gonna be a brutal winter I hope not JUDD: Well being here anyways its right next to a lake so it’s already that much worse BUCKRIDGE: Yeah that’s true Page 19 �JUDD: I’m not a huge fan of winter and I’ve been in Michigan my whole life so BUCKRIDGE: There you go JUDD: Yeah so I should be used to it by now, but not my things, usually we actually, growing up we used to take a trip every year in the winter to like some place in the south either Florida or Texas BUCKRIDGE: Well sorry yeah JUDD: I’ve actually never been out of the country, exception Canada but I’ve been to a lot of states BUCKRIDGE: But Canada is good if you’ve been to Canada JUDD: Yeah BUCKRIDGE: Where at Toronto? JUDD: I’ve just I mean I’ve been through it but I’ve been not really too into it so I haven’t really even experienced being out of the country BUCKRIDGE: Oh okay, you just went to the border? JUDD: Well we went through it on our way to Maine from Michigan we were heading up to Maine BUCKRIDGE: Oh that’s the way you go? JUDD: Well we did it was shorter I guess, we drive we never fly I’ve actually never flown so BUCKRIDGE: Are you scared of flying? JUDD: My mother is (Laughter) and we travel together so, actually my first time flying will be this spring break I’m flying to North Carolina so yeah, I’m excited BUCKRIDGE: Are you going by yourself? JUDD: Mhmm my best friend lives in, he goes to school in North Carolina now so I’m gonna go visit him BUCKRIDGE: Good good JUDD: And I’m gonna fly (laughter) BUCKRIDGE: Good for you! JUDD: First time, I know I’m excited though, anyway this is not about me so BUCKRIDGE: (laughter) Well how much longer because I have to get these gradings finished JUDD: Well that’s 45 minutes so that’s close enough right BUCKRIDGE: You tell me! END OF INTERVIEW Page 20 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bafe4005967eaa4d085cf982174764bf.mp3 b6a27b210042090f37b99ef5181b7dcb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Buckridge_Steeve Title A name given to the resource Steeve Buckridge audio interview and transcription Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Buckridge, Steeve Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Fraser, Kevin Judd, Erica Pemberton, Travis Description An account of the resource Steeve Buckridge was born in Kingston, Jamaica. He became a professor at Grand Valley State University several years ago. He is an Associate Professor of African and Caribbean History and Associate Faculty in African and African American Studies. Also this year he became GVSU's Director of Area Studies. In 2004, he published his first novel, The Language of Dress: Resistance and Accommodation in Jamaica, 1780-1890. This book discusses how freed and enslaved women used their fashion and style of dress as a symbol of resistance to slavery and accommodation to white culture in pre- and post- emancipation society. He discusses the differences between discrimination in Jamaica and discrimination in Grand Rapids and some of his experiences with it. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-10-27 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0e28d4aff3586abd9b1fbc9e1da2f0f1.pdf 4af474baea4c664bf04cfbfb71c38fdc PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Jeanne Englehart Interviewers: Tylenda, Evan, Connor Johnson, Jason, Send, and Philip Joslyn Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/22/2012 Biography and Description Jeanne was raised in Atlanta, Michigan. She is a successful business women in the West Michigan area. She discusses how she became the successful woman that she is today. Transcript TYLENDA: We are hoping you will open up and you can talk about what you want. ENGLEHART: You must have some type of prepared questions? GROUP: Oh yeah. ENGLEHART: Just curious, how did you get my name?” GROUP: We knew we wanted to interview a successful woman in business… in Grand Rapids and we came across your name. Basically because of US Diversity we learned how women historically and today are treated differently in business and what not. So we are coming to you to get your view point on that because I’m sure you’ve dealt with that. ENGLEHART: So the premise to really how women how women are treated differently? TYLENDA: Yeah and see maybe any obstacles you have overcome and maybe different viewpoints, if men have treated you differently because you are a women and what not. We will also want some background information and we can go from there. ENGLEHART: It’s probably easier if you just started asking me questions other than ….. GROUP: Give us a detail background not real detail but outline of how and where you grew up. Head into how and when you knew you wanted to start your own business and just kind of transition us into that, college maybe. ENGLEHART: Well actually I grew up in Atlanta, Michigan, which is up in northern Lower Michigan in a small town that graduated 52 kids. That shows you how big it was. A lot of them are Engleharts, so just a large family and very very poor family……. It was not… we had 5 kids and a father who was disabled so it wasn’t a family that was education was important and a family that had the means to provide education. At some point I think I just decided it was… I needed to get out of there. So……I …..How do I Page 1 �start? There’s a really good, should of brought it for you, There’s a really good article that was in the Grand Rapids press about my life. That will give you a wealth of detail that I will be repeating. That will probably be really helpful and would put a lot of things into context for you, but … I kind of ended up in Grand Rapids in 1980 -81. And I came to work at, there used to be a store called computer land over on 28th street and they sold computers, they sold apple they sold big old luggable Compacts. They decided they wanted to offer classes for the customers that bought computers and I happened to be standing in line with the general manager of the store; I didn’t know him at the time. It was an IBM meeting and told me they were looking for someone. At the time I was working up at Mt Pleasant at CMU and then for a company called MoBark Industries. I thought oh gee why not that would be kind of fun to try that. So we moved to Grand Rapids… Sorry I have really bad allergies at this time of the year; I take Zertec and get cotton mouth so I apologize if my I take sips of water. There is also a Cat here at the school and I am allergic to cats, so it’s a double whammy. GROUP: We saw that. ENGLEHART: Oh yeah, it’s a big ole ally cat that the kids adopted. Of course it knows I don’t like it so it comes and finds me… Anyway, I had taken a job at CMU and was working there and then took a different job working for this company called MoBark industries. They were offering me different positions as I learned more about computers. JOHNSON: So that’s how you got to learn about computers? ENGLEHART: Well it was a lot of word processing back then, so I was heading up to the word processing area. TYLENDA: That’s back when you had the punch cards? ENGLEHART: Yeah, oh yeah and the tapes that ran through it. Yeah long time ago. So I took the job and once I was at Computer Land and I was working there for a year or two I thought how it was interesting that people would think, since you were part of a retail store that we were trying to sell them something instead of just educate them. So I noticed this funny little niche for someone who doesn’t sell anything but really knows how to use computers for business applications. So it’s just like this little hybrid piece that I kept thinking I know how to use a computer to increase people’s business efficiencies but they sometimes didn’t believe it because you’re working at a retail store. So I thought, well, there might be a business here. So I went and decided that I would try and start my own business. So I borrowed 5000 on my credit card and started a business. I didn’t go to the bank because I knew I didn’t have anything that anybody would loan against. So I can’t say I was ever discriminated against when it came to banking because I don’t think they would of lent the money to a man either. It wasn’t a female issue at that point. You don’t have to collateral you don’t get the loan. So that’s the way it usually it works and that was 1985. TYLENDA: Did you maybe have anybody telling you it might not of been a good idea or persuading you to do something else in regards to opening the business? ENGLEHART: Well it was my decision, at the time I was still doing work for Computer Land and I was doing work for Grand Rapids Junior college. So I had 2 different income streams and I went to the president at the community college and said I really wanted to do this because again people wouldn’t come to the college to teach them business because they thought you were going to teach them academics. So there was this competing interest. Are you retail or academic? Well I was neither. I’m in Page 2 �the middle. And so I went to him and said I want to do this, I want a sabbatical. I wanted a fallback position if it didn’t work. So he gave me a year to come back. So in part people say you must have been a big risk taker. I guess I didn’t see it as a risk. It was in hindsight. I almost had something I could go back to if it didn’t work. And so I found through Grand Valley, they used to have a computer lab for over flow of obstruction that was down on Division and Fountain. That was a building down on the corner. I don’t think they even own it anymore. They had a computer lab down there and so I worked out an agreement with them that I could use that computer lab for my classes. I started my business and I had a little office right there next to the Grand Valley space and I shared the Grand Valley admin who was part of the lab there. They were gracious enough to let me have a year to pay the rent. In exchange for me helping them maintain their computer lab and helping them with some of the stuff they needed. So it allowed me to have some time to not have to pay rent…It was kind of a unique situation. TYLENDA: Was there a time when you thought your business would not be successful and when did you truly start seeing it grow? ENGLEHART: Well I truly think there are always points when you think it’s not going to work and what was I thinking. I probably, yeah at least one time when I took a project on and then after I got into it I realized the way I had quoted it was wrong. I was losing my shirt on it. But you have to do it. You have to do what you say you’re going to do. It’s a big small town and word gets out very quick and so people were coming to me because of my reputation and my name so it was really important. I mean the company was Englehart training so it wasn’t too hard to figure out who owned it. So that was just a nice way for me to be able to, had to be able to do what I said I was going to do. Grand Valley was nice enough to help me with that. So it was a nice Segway for me, were I really started seeing that it was really going to take off. I always thought it was going to be successful but thought it had limited potential. Because once people are trained then what do they need? I wasn’t seeing how many upgrades, how many upgrades in the software industry. This was before Microsoft, this was back when teaching people Vizocal and WordStar was the word processor. This was before office. So I was doing a lot of training on these products and every time they had an upgrade then people had to be trained. So there were a lot of companies that came to me to do their training for employees. So this wasn’t onesy twosy people coming in. I did have public classes that were published but the majority of my business was corporate work so. JOHNSON: How did you stay up on your training with the changes? ENGLEHART: I would go to the different software companies. I did spend a lot of time in Utah with WordPerfect doing stuff and with Novell spent a lot of time with Microsoft when it became more popular. We became Microsoft Certified. That was the only way to get training was to spend time with the manufacturer. So that was always part of what I had to do. If I didn’t have the expertise I found people who did have it and contract with them. Especially in the areas of networking and open systems architecture, those were beyond my capabilities so I found people I could hire on a contract basis and put together a plan where we could split the profits. He was happy I was happy. TYLENDA: So how long did that go for? How long were you…? ENGLEHART: Oh gosh, well I was in the grand valley building for only a year. The business I sold the business 13 years later. And by then I had owned and built my own building. I had 52 employees and it was part of a franchise and system that I helped start. IT kind of grew really fast. There were a couple interim offices in Detroit. If you go to the lake shore and you go past Fruitridge and 3 mile there’s a Page 3 �building with a pyramid…it’s all glass to the top, that’s the building I built. So I sold the building and the business and then the tech market tanked. ENGLEHART: That was db luck, totally db luck *Continues to laugh* so it grew I think because it just, people again trusted that you can’t be all things to all people but you find people who can. So I was really big on finding the right people and again bring that level of expertise in. Even though it might have been a cost that I couldn’t afford like with those being Novell and Microsoft certification for networks. That’s a totally different animal then teaching people word processing. I had an arrangement with the experts that we split the profits. People would come in for that name because they had all the certifications. It was a really good way to build the business. Those are the cash cows, 5 days and $3000 classes. Those are the systems that engineers need constant training….. And so I figured it was just time to sell. TYLENDA: So is part of that still around today? ENGLEHART: The company I sold to well at the time it was known as Productivity Point International. Which is a, it’s a… TYLENDA: Subserr... ENGLEHART: No. Well it’s actually started by, a group called Knowledge Universe, but anyway. They bought. There were a hundred and some franchises by the time… TYLENDA: Wow. ENGLEHART: I sold and there was 8 individuals who started that franchise. So I was one of the people that started it. So when we sold, it was Chicago, San Francisco, New York, Austin Texas, Me, little old Grand Rapids, and who were the other ones? I can’t remember. But, so those are the ones they bought and then they didn’t do a very good job managing them. TYLENDA: Yeah. ENGLEHART: So, then again the market, the tech market just tanked. So, it’s one of those things, it was the right time for me. I was ready to do something else. I think I’m a serial entrepreneur. ENGLEHART: I have to be doing something different. TYLENDA: So, what is it that made you want to sell the businesses? Then what did you move on to? ENGLEHART: Well what made me want to sell it was the right price. I mean… It’s pretty... the greatest thing. ENGLEHART: It’s pretty basic when someone says, “Here’s a check.” And so it was money. It was also the fact that I was kind of bored with it. I was just kind of tired of doing it. My kids were grown and I thought well maybe it’s time to do that. And, with any business that grows that fast, you’re highly leveraged. I mean you have a lot of debt. You can’t grow a business that fast without having a lot of debt. So some of it is the attraction of not only getting a check, your debts getting paid off. So, how tuff is that? I just thought, well I’ll just go play with my grandkids for a while. I had no intention of doing anything. I left and it was June ’97, I think June ’97, and I, people know, and , when you’re available. Page 4 �And, Congressman Ehlers called me and asked me if I would consider working as his District Director doing some work for him. And I said, I love you Vern, but I hate politics. Why would I do that? And what he really wanted was me to do relations person. Someone who knew the people and the community and had credibility that could represent him in meetings and could really be his eyes and ears on the ground and help him with that outreach that all congressmen have to have because he was in Washington. ENGLEHART:’s Phone Rings ENGLEHART: Sorry, I should turn my phone off. Group Laughter ENGLEHART: So I just said... Told him I would do it and I did it for… I loved it. It was actually a great job. Because I reported to, the chief of staff in Washington, but I was worked here in the federal building. And there was staff here in the federal building that did things like immigration and social security and lots of casework, but my job was really out in the community. So, I didn’t have casework in the same way. It was a great job; I loved it. And then I was there five and a have years. And , someone asked me to apply for the CEO of the chamber of Commerce position. And I thought, hmmm. Do I really want to work that hard or not? And it was the national search and I thought what the heck? So threw my hat in the ring because I just loved what the chamber did. And just, ? They got it down to 30 people, and then they had 10, and then they had 6. And I said I think better tell Vern because somehow, somehow somebody’s going to tell him. Even though they had kept it very quite. So and when they selected me for the position. So, I did that. I took that job in January of 2005. TYLENDA: Okay. ENGLEHART: And stayed seven and a half years. I retired this past April. A year ago April from the chamber. And I was retired for four months and they called and asked me if I would help with the school. TYLENDA: Sounds like you’re trying to get out. ENGLEHART: I am. TYLENDA: And they’re just trying, trying to come back to you. ENGLEHART: I’m done. I’m done. No, they bought this building. Educational everything, great teachers and principle, etc. They uh, but they purchased a building. They had a half million dollar building that all of the sudden they had to pay for. It was a different skill set they needed someone with some operations skills and someone that could help them really put all of the business practices in place so that they could be sustainable. So I gave them a six-month contract to do that. I’m in month seven and I am done. Next week is my last week. ENGLEHART: So, yeah. No, I did what they needed. So... Helped them launch a capital campaign so they can start getting some money. They, they want to build an early childhood center. So… TYLENDA: Okay. Page 5 �ENGLEHART: So. Just. Than I am officially retired. ENGLEHART: Truly. JOHNSON: So, I don’t mean to like back track, but during all of this, when, when did you have your children? And how was that? How was parenting and like owning a business? ENGLEHART: Not easy. JOHNSON: How did that work? ENGLEHART: Well I had my children, let’s see. They’re now, I’m trying to think. They were not... I’m trying to think if they... When I lived in Mt. Pleasant, they were with me, I was divorced at the time. And they were with me in Mt. Pleasant. So I didn’t have the kind of job that was real strenuous. I worked at the college and was a secretary for one of the departments. And I am one of those horrible examples of someone who does not have a college degree. Went a long way on street smarts, but probably one of my biggest regrets. But it just didn’t happen. It didn’t happen for lots of reasons. And so, I kind of… My kids were part of the equation. Then they went to live with their dad for a while. And then they came back to live with me. So they were sort of in and out of the picture. By the time I started my business the oldest one was living with me and the youngest one was living with his father. So I only had, I was only single parent to one at that time. But early on I was, had them both. So they were… It was a challenge. Very much a challenge. But… TYLENDA: So you went into the Chamber of Commerce. What did that, what was kind of your job description? What would you do for that? ENGLEHART: Well, the chamber has 3,000 business members. And so the job was really to, , have services and programs and, and keep the members happy, ? Very strong political aspect to it. We had an office in Lansing. So, I was registered lobbyist. I did a lot of lobbying, which wasn’t my favorite part of the job. I spent a lot of time meeting with the businesses to find out what they needed and how we could help them be more successful. This, the Grand Rapids chamber is one of the 25 largest chambers in the United States. It’s a very large chamber. So we had, there was a lot of programs. We had our, our diversity initiatives, which were very unique in the country. And so we did a lot of work with them. Business that had an interest in how can diversity help your bottom line. We did, started to do a lot of work with sustainability while I was there with Norm Christopher at Grand Valley, who worked with me. So we set up a whole sustainability program so that people could find out more about how they could, their triple bottom line could be affected by sustainability. So the chamber is just always moving target. The job is to meet the needs of the members. Whatever it might be. And they’ll call you when they’re upset with the city commissioner because their sewer problem, or they’ll call you when they’re mad at the governor. So, it’s just a very wide range and so we would advocate on their behalf and try to help them solve their problems. So it’s just, it was, I mean it’s a management job. I mean, that’s what you do. You’re managing people and you’re managing resources. But it’s also very much a public position. You go to a lot of events and represent the chamber. I said if I never have to go to another black tie event in my life, I would be perfectly happy. Perfectly happy. JOHNSON: So now you said you didn’t, you regret not going to college. But yet, you still made it this far. Like how… Do you think that was easy or it’s possible for anybody? Page 6 �ENGLEHART: No. No, not any more. I don’t think so. I think that was probably the time, the era. I think it’s also that as I built my reputation, it became less important to someone where I was education than it was the results they could see that were proven. So, one thing I’ve never been is, never been dishonest about it. I mean, from day, everybody that I would never apply for a job or say, without telling someone. if this is what you want, I don’t have that master’s degree you’re looking for on the piece of paper. So, don’t waste your time, if this is important. So I guess it’s one of those things, now I don’t think you could do that. I don’t think you’d even get your foot in the door. But because again I think it is such a big-small town and I had done so much and I think I could do it because I was so well known. And that’s the bottom line. I don’t think you could do that anymore because people wouldn’t even give you a chance. TYLENDA: Now do you think you had more opportunities than anybody else did back then? Do you think you kind of, or things just kind of fell in place and you almost got lucky? ENGLEHART: No, I made the opportunities. They didn’t fall in my lap. Nooo, no. I think I had a lot of opportunities, but I think it’s because I was always looking for opportunity. I was always saying, if I’m doing this right now, what’s next? What’s next? What’s next? What’s next? And so, , if you, if you can say, gee, well if, , if we’re, if we’re teaching, , Novel was the big, , for years was the big, , operating system for networks. Well, , once you saw Microsoft make a move in that market, it didn’t take a brain surgeon to figure out that you better be getting Microsoft certified because Microsoft eventually was going to knock Novel out. You, you just kind of know that. So, say well then I can see six months from now, we need to be in this niche and we need to own it. Because if we don’t own it, someone else is going to. For me, it is very, it’s probably a very competitive thing. Is that, I would look for the opportunities and say, I know if I don’t do it, someone else is going to. And how do I get there? And then I would look for the resources that could help. TYLENDA: Mhmm. ENGLEHART: So, sometimes it was using my own money, and going further in debt. And sometimes it was finding people like this company I ended up working with that did all the training. But, yea… JOHNSON: So while you were doing this, what sort of role models did you have? Who did you like look up to or want to stride for? ENGLEHART: Well, I wish I could say I had a lot of them, but I really didn’t. I think… I mean from a personal standpoint, my grandmother. But it was such a different era. I hate to say it. It was very competitive and woman weren’t always women’s best friends. I mean women were more competitive than men. I found that it was easier for me to get advice and ask a man, not to be a mentor necessarily, but ask a man to ask than it was to have a woman. Because that’s just the way it was. Because there were so few opportunities. Everybody wanted to be the queen bee, and there could only be one. And so, if you were the queen bee, they had to knock you off in order to get there. ENGLEHART: …Because there are not a lot of opportunities for women. I mean in high level. In the very highest level. There is not a lot. You look around and you see it. You look at board of directors. I'm on a board. A corporate Board. That, a paid board for a bank. But, there are very few women on those types of boards. There is not very many, Page 7 �TYLENDA: So kind of like could you give us like an example of one of those. Something like a dog eat dog situation. ENGLEHART: Well for example. Now a days they have like Infor, which is a big group for women that has 700 or 800 members. it’s all about supporting each other and supporting women. Well, they didn't have anything that was organized back then. So your support group was really those that you made friends with. AND, your friends you hoped wouldn't try to cut you. But, there was a lot of other people out there that I think would just say, well why, it’s another award. Why is she getting one more award? I don’t know if it is a jealousy factor. I don’t know. But, I felt that a lot and I think it was pretty common. Sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you don’t have the high visibility you are not successful. (laughter) So which do you do? Do you continue? At this point in my life I am low profile. I don’t apply to do anything. They just had the 50 most influential women. I've been on it every year. This year I didn't fill out the application. I said, there are other women coming along that should take place (laughter) not me. I was the past, the future is coming, and so, but I was surprised when I saw the list. There was still a n number of women that are women like myself that are way past 60 that were on that list that I thought, well, haven’t you had enough? Do you really need to have your name on one more thing? I mean I guess I'm at a different point. TYLENDA: So you're more humble ENGLEHART: I just don’t care, it’s not important to me anymore. It's really not. I think at some point I just said I need to have my own sense of worth and it can’t come from a plaque on the wall. (laugh) It has to come from spending time with my 6 grandkids. Being with my husband once and a while. The price you pay for some of the success I had is the... it’s tough on your family, it’s tough. And I remember when my oldest son was in high school and I had started my business and it wasn't too old at the time. He was in sports. I remember going to track meets in my heels to watch him race. All these mothers looking at me. I’m like, I had to run in there and watch him run then I had to go back to work. Because I didn't have the luxury to be on the PTA and to help with the school functions. I had to work. So, they paid the price. I said, it’s time for me to change that. TYLENDA: So do you think you really did miss out on some of the important times back then? Like with your kids. ENGLEHART: OH absolutely. There’s no doubt. I mean you can’t do it all. You think you can. At some point you think you can. back in the 60's we were told we could to it all. So we try to do it all. You sort of find out at some point, you can but at what price. TYLENDA: So is that why you transitioned to this job? Because you feel like it’s a lot more fulfilling? ENGLEHART: No. I am doing this for them. I gave them 6 months. I am really kind of doing it. I am getting paid but I am doing it as a favor to some of the people on the board that I knew. They called me and said would you help. I am not looking for, I wasn't looking for a job and I am not looking for one now. TYLENDA: Don’t worry we're not hiring. ENGLEHART: Well my husband is 69 and he is a retired math teacher so he is at an age too that we are kind of saying, if we are going to travel and do some things now is the time to do it if we don't do it Page 8 �now... and the grand kids are in lots of different states. SO, its time. Summer is coming. Can’t wait to be off for the summer right. JOHNSON: So, when you were working at the Chamber, what sort of atmosphere was it like. Because you said there weren’t a lot of opportunities for women. So did you deal mainly with men a lot? ENGLEHART: When I said there weren't opportunities for women I wasn't referring just to the chamber GROUP: right, right... ENGLEHART: I was referring to corporate America. There weren't a lot of women in those high, high leadership positions. So yeah, I mean. When I would go into a meeting of the "business leaders", Whatever that means , in west Michigan. It’s a bunch of white guys sitting around a table. I mean let’s face it. It is what it is. I don’t know that it is a whole lot different now. So yeah I had to deal with mostly, from a leadership standpoint mostly men. TYLENDA: So did you ever see that you were kind of discriminated against? In the sense that if you did speak up your word wasn't as valuable as a male counterparts to yours. Do you have one good example? ENGLEHART: I think from a political standpoint, , when you're sitting in meetings and there are let’s say 12 business leaders around the table and the governor is there. And you are talking about political issues; there is always a tendency, not saying with this governor, I’m just saying that there is always a tendency to look at the man for answers. Or, I won’t use the governor I think I would probably use a senator or someone from the state house. I wouldn't say the governor. You just see that there is always this tendency that when a question is asked they will turn and say, well what do you think? They will turn to men. And at some point I feel like I have to raise my hand, like a little kid and say, the chamber's opinion is... so I would have to insert myself. But I would say that it was mostly, I think it was mostly political. I can't think where it was a big issue otherwise. I just think it was, just the nature of politicians. It’s a good ole boys network. I mean, that’s what it is. I mean chambers are good ole boy networks. There aren't a lot of women that are CEO's of chambers this size. There are more now. I was the first female CEO they ever had at the chamber. I was the first one. So that tells you something, 120 years it took them to get a woman CEO and then they went back to a white man after me. (Laughter) it’s a good ole boys network. Big-time! So... ENGLEHART: And I think that you think differently and you make decisions differently as a woman. And sometimes Men, that was very difficult for them to understand why would I make this decision? I know one that comes to my mind was the decision that I had to make that had to do with (pause...UH) it was for small market reform which was an insurance issue. And I was. The majority of our members that would have benefited from our supporting this legislation. But I knew that spectr hospital was opposed This is where I probably should have remained anonymous - I knew they were very opposed. And I, the decision, finally. Somebody had to finally make the decision and I made the decision in the interest of our members. Which 80% of those 3,000 members are small businesses. . With less than 10 employees. This was important. Well, I mean, you can imagine the stuff rain down on me big time. That I didn't support, the big dog on the hill. So, to this day there’s, I mean, he would, he wanted my neck, he wanted my job. He was adamant I was going to be fired. But he didn't get me fired... But. . That’s the kind of thing I'm not sure, I’m not sure how. I don’t know how a man would have responded. I just, my sense would have been that they might have caved into the good ole boys pressure. Page 9 �TYLENDA: Especially what you see today too. ENGLEHART: That’s just my, that’s my guess. Not based on anything. Just based on my observation of how, mm, how much pressure these guys can put on people. It's relentless. And I think as a woman you kind of go (hmmm) OK. Been there done that. Had babies. Can’t put pressure on me. (laughter) TYLENDA: So a woman's intuitions... ENGLEHART: Well I think it’s having the interest in the bigger picture. Having an interest in. (trails off) This isn't about, my reputation or about whether I'm the one that’s going to get slammed for making this decision, this is really about what is best for everyone. That’s a tough, tough job to have. Because there is a lot of pressure. So yeah. JOHNSON: So now that you are like, past that you say (inaudible), who do you surround yourself with? What kind of people do you want in your life to... ENGLEHART: Hmmm well I have a group of women friend that are... we used to tap dance together many many years ago. And the tappers are probably from a women’s friend group there is still 10 of us that get together every couple of months and drink wine, eat and drink more wine. So that group I surround myself with those. I surround myself I think with family more. m I have a, my youngest son is disabled. He had a stroke at 29 and he is paralyzed on one side and he can’t speak so I spend time. He's not living with us but I spend a lot of time with those kinds of issues. My oldest grandson lives here in town. He'll be 16 (sigh) and he's driving. So, I just spend a lot of time with, the grandkids and stuff. Because that is positive energy. And I can still make an impact. I can still help them with what they're going through. I don’t know, so, it’s pretty simple these days. I don’t do anything too exciting (laughter). TYLENDA: So would you say... What are you r biggest regrets throughout your whole life? You talked about not spending enough time with your kids, or anything else. Name something you wish you would have done differently. Maybe pursued a different area... ENGLEHART: I mean I certainly regret that I didn’t finish college. That is an obvious one. But mm, I think probably, regret that I, my personality is such that I'm very mm, I'm very focused. And so there's a good aspect to that and there's a bad aspect to that. . The good thing is, is when I am focused on something it is going to get done. I am very good at compartmentalizing and getting it done. The bad news is, is that when I am that focused there are a lot of other things that are going on that I am not paying attention too. Whether that’s is personal friendship that I have lapsed because I haven’t spent enough time. It's a two way street if you want to have friends you have to reach out now and then. It can’t always be the other way. So there’s some of that I regret that I haven’t, I haven’t done a really good job of keeping up with my friends. JOHNSON: So if you were going to give advice to somebody that might be like living in a small-town or having a poor family that wants to become successful what would you tell them? ENGLEHART: Don’t do what I did. (Laughter) mm... (Thinking) I would just say don’t take no for an answer. part of what has gotten me here is, if someone said no, I just figured out another way to do it. . I'm very determined and so I’m also very stubborn. So if somebody would tell me no, it would just, I was just that much more determined to prove them wrong. , and so it’s like just because one person says no or puts up a road block doesn’t mean you can find another way to drive around it and you have to be Page 10 �creative sometimes to drive around it. But you also have to be honest, you have to be ethical, all those things that are really core values I think. If what your core values are and you stick with your core values you will be successful Its just determining I think saying how far you want to push the rock uphill. Some people don’t have the personality that, that they want to keep pushing. I mean I had a family of 5 and all my brothers and sisters still live up in northern Michigan. Not one of them ever left. One has at least gone on to college and came back. Bu they all live there and they are all happy in this little isolated world. Here I would go nuts. But, their kids. they had their kids and their kids went away to college and came back and lived there. I mean its nuts. It’s like O.K. (laughter) To me that wouldn’t be, something I would be very good at, but they're happy. So I guess it’s all in knowing what you want to do. I just knew that I wanted to be someplace else and that I wanted to be. I knew I wanted to be in a city. I didn’t want to be in a town. . And to me Grand Rapids was a huge city. It’s like WOW. And then you go to New York or Chicago and you come back to Grand Rapids and you go this really is a small town. ENGLEHART: But, their kids, they have their kids and their kids went away to college and came back and lived there. I mean its nuts. It’s like to me that would be something that I’d be very good at but their happy so I guess its knowing what are doing what you want to do. I mean I just knew I that I wanted to be someplace else and that I wanted to be, I knew I wanted to be in a city, I didn’t want to be in a town and to me Grand Rapids was a huge city : but wow then you, you go to New York or Chicago and you come back to Grand Rapids you go this really is a small town...but I think that I just knew that I wanted to do something different I did not want to be, I didn’t want to be in Atlanta, Michigan the rest of my life. I was absolutely sure of that. TYLENDA: So I mean do we have any other questions? JOHNSON: Yeah how, what’s time like? TYLENDA: We got about fifty minutes I’d say. Jason: 46...yeah. ENGLEHART: We can finish early...hahaha. TYLENDA: Yeah I mean that’s fine with us just hope our teacher doesn’t get mad at us. ENGLEHART: Oh I see, ok. GROUP: Laughter. TYLENDA: So I mean is there any, I guess if do you guys have any other questions...... Jason: Not really. TYLENDA: I mean if not is there anything else you’d kinda like to say...any last. ENGLEHART: Well I’d like to hear a little more about your project. TYLENDA: Oh ok perfect......do we have the, the consent mm. Page 11 �ENGLEHART: The consent mentions the… TYLENDA: What it, what it is JOHNSON: Its TYLENDA: The group were split up into say five groups total six, six groups total with about four in each group and what it was is we went to go look out someone in society who is kinda viewed as different and so instead of most people went to the African community, African American community maybe like a teacher professor they went to LGBT member and kind of asked ‘em their point. We kind of wanted to do something different. See how a women in business is viewed cause even today that’s still a big topic and pay… ENGLEHART: mhmm. TYLENDA: Pay differences and everything like that. So that’s where we did our research and we, we saw that the 50 influential most, most influential women in Grand Rapids and then we found your name so that’s kinda how we got here. ENGLEHART: Ok. The…the…the focus is though civil rights? TYLENDA: mmm ENGLEHART: Histories, is that western Michigan civil rights histories? TYLENDA: I mean she didn’t give us…she didn’t make it…she didn’t tie us down too much and we even asked her if this was ok and she loved the idea. ENGLEHART: hmmm k TYLENDA: of going out to you so it kind of just worked out and we just wanted to be different. ENGLEHART: Yeah...well… it is interesting when you say civil rights obviously that when I talked about the diversity initiatives, the chamber…… it brought to mind that our chamber was very abnormal. It was the only chamber in the United States that had full time staff dedicated to diversity problems, training and education programs, and it was interesting. At one point when I was very early on in my chamber tenure, there was a major company in town that came to the chamber and asked to have a meeting, so it’s… there are a couple of VP’s. He said they thought we were spending too much time on diversity. TYLENDA: Really? ENGLEHART: Initiatives and programs. TYLENDA: Geez ENGLEHART: and we should be spending more time and interest on political activities and that was what they paid their membership for and if we didn’t make some adjustments they would be cutting back on how much they donated to the chamber and they did. Page 12 �TYLENDA: Unless they changed ENGLEHART: Cause I didn’t change my mind. TYLENDA: Yeah JOHNSON: What sort of a impact did you see your diversity initiative ENGLEHART: Having? JOHNSON: Yeah ENGLEHART: Well they had this program called "Facing Racism" that is just a tremendous 12 week program and the impact I saw was that people that would say to me years after they had gone through it what a change it made in their life because it’s facilitated and it puts you...first of all the makeup of the classes are always intentional to be diverse and you learn a lot about yourself you learn a lot about other races but you learn how… you’re put in situations so how it… it’s a feeling you… TYLENDA: mmhhmm. ENGLEHART: How someone feels and…and there’s… it’s hard to explain it…it’s a very experiential project. I’m trying to think of an example, something they do... TYLENDA: Kinda put people in that. ENGLEHART: We… they do different scenarios but then…but there’s like one they have… they’ll have extra questions like...it’s called packy or back pack. I don’t know, it’s been years since I’ve gone through it but they would a ask question and if you could answer yes then you… then you could step back or, or forward, whatever it was and then this one and they…they ask about when you go to the… if you were to walk into the office or yard you say I need a band aid I cut my finger I mean what color is the band aid? TYLENDA: Yeah...it’s true. ENGLEHART: Now they do have clear band aids and now they… TYLENDA: uh huh ENGLEHART: do have...but typically I mean it’s just those kinds of things and you think will…how would I feel if every time...ah...every…, its…it’s like one more time someone’s pointing out to me I’m different. TYLENDA: mmhhmm ENGLEHART: I’m not the same I mean it’s those little tiny. TYLENDA: and they go Page 13 �ENGLEHART: examples TYLENDA: like some dolls stuff you look at. ENGLEHART: Exactly...exactly. TYLENDA: Cabbage Patch dolls. ENGLEHART: So, so I think that I saw that it made an impact because companies including Grand Valley have put a lot of people through these programs. I think they see it as a way to begin to educate. TYLENDA: mmhhmm ENGLEHART: That begin to tell people that you need to be aware it’s creating that awareness. It’s creating just some of the words that you use and the phrases that you use. I mean one person said this guys in the white hat and this guys and the white hat black hat ...good guy bad guy. Well that wasn’t acceptable because if you think about it the black hat was always the negative and the black was always being associated as the negative piece. And so again those are small examples but you start to think about how you speak and you start to think the language you use and how someone else hears that and I spent a lot of time with the different groups getting to know them whether they were African American or… Bing is a good friend of me who owned Eastern Florrals so the Asian community and so just learning that other people’s viewpoint is ok its different but its ok. And then so then in the workplace the more you do that the more productive companies become because you’re more open to and more creative ideas. TYLENDA: Exactly. ENGLEHART: because if you look at the most successful companies, they are companies that have embraced diversity not just by saying we embrace diversity TYLENDA: they actually… ENGLEHART: but by actually doing it and incorporating it and having people in leadership positions that are different. TYLENDA: mmhhmm ENGLEHART: Power and different backgrounds and whether it’s at the chamber…one of my VP’s was a lesbian woman and she was black. It’s like two strikes. TYLENDA: uh huh ENGLEHART: Haha TYLENDA: Haha ENGLEHART: Ok she’s qualified and she’s good. Page 14 �TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: but again that’s not always seen, you don’t see that very often. JOHNSON: So…so that’s like what you told the company that came to you and said that they think you shouldn’t be spending as much money on that and you’re like well its… ENGLEHART: It’s good for the community, it’s good for the bottom line of the chamber, and it’s good for Grand Rapids. JOHNSON: mmhhmm ENGLEHART: To see that not everybody’s homogeneous, not everybody is, I used to jokingly……not everybody is white, Dutch, Christian reformed TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: They’re not; look on the streets in Grand Rapids… a little different than it used to be. Now the leadership may still be… but I was a woman and I’m Jewish. I mean…so I didn’t fit in any of the categories. TYLENDA: ah huh. ENGLEHART: So TYLENDA: So did you find a lot of companies embracing it then from… ENGLEHART: They’re starting to more and more… TYLENDA: Do you? ENGLEHART: Just starting to TYLENDA: Do you see still a lot of… kinda do as we say not as we do? Where they do kind of... say there embracing it yet they still treat people ENGLEHART: I think there’s a lot of religious discrimination… TYLENDA: Really? ENGLEHART: Still. TYLENDA: mmhhmm JOHNSON: Do you think that that might be like a west Michigan thing or is that…is that everywhere? Page 15 �ENGLEHART: I think it’s more prevalent in west Michigan. I’m not…I don’t know that it’s just west Michigan but it’s certainly something that you go to a cocktail party and people always say well what church do you go to? TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: It’s just…that’s part of the vernacular. That’s part of what they say and so when people are talking and there having casual conversation that’s part of what they ask in west Michigan. It’s…what church do you go to? JOHNSON: huh ENGLEHART: And when you tell ‘em you don’t… TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: They don’t quite know what to say....well I go to Temple Emmanuelle and I’m Jewish and its down on Fulton and yeah…it…and you…and simple things like…eh , the Jewish holidays which are different than the Christian holidays. So for me I……one time there was huge meeting that was planned and nobody had asked about my calendar and it happened to be on a Passover… TYLENDA: Wow ENGLEHART: And I said I can’t be there and they said well why not and I said its Passover and I said there’s not very many days I miss but I’m go to Temple...it’s like you guys with Christmas and Easter I go. TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: A couple of ‘em I go to and tried to make light of it and they were really upset that I didn’t come. TYLENDA: hmm ENGLEHART: They didn’t understand it and I said well you didn’t ask me TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: You just assed that because I was blonde and that… that I was probably Christian well you didn’t ask so those kinds of things… I think that it’s harder for a woman…I think if a man had been in that situation… I think that they would have probably understood more. I think cause if a man said now it’s a religious holiday. TYLENDA: Yeah ENGLEHART: I have to go to the Temple I think that would have been ok because people respect that. I think with a woman it’s almost like well… you couldn’t. Page 16 �TYLENDA: Break a rule and… ENGLEHART: Yeah or I don’t know I just… it I definitely felt minimized. TYLENDA: Ok ENGLEHART: By that TYLENDA: And was that for the… was that the chamber you said? ENGLEHART: No it was a meeting that somebody had that I was supposed to go to and represent the chamber TYLENDA: Oh, ok. ENGLEHART: So it wasn’t a chamber meeting. We would have never have scheduled something on a holiday. JOHNSON: I’m curious more hearing about this Jewish church that you go to and that community. ENGLEHART: Well there’s the Jewish community in Grand Rapids. There’s actually…three...really two major temples. One is Temple Emmanuelle on Fulton right by Aquinas College TYLENDA: Oh, ok. ENGLEHART: And then there is a Ahavas Israel which is on Michigan St. which is over almost by Michigan at the beltline that far over and then there’s another one that’s called the Chabad house. And the difference is that there is reformed Jews and there’s conservative Jews… and then there’s the Chabadnics which are the ones that are the black hats and they only walk and so. TYLENDA: mmhhmm. ENGLEHART: There is a very small group of them in Grand Rapids, but the temple I belong to is a reformed temple so people who are in the reformed Jewish community are sometimes ......intermarriages…not both…maybe not both Jewish and… its more liberal… Ahavas Israel is very conservative… on Michigan all of their services are in Hebrew. TYLENDA: mmhhmm. ENGLEHART: A lot of the services are in Hebrew at temple Emmanuelle as well but it is much more liberal and habab and some of the more conservative temples women aren’t even allowed to sit with the men TYLENDA: Wow. ENGLEHART: It’s that it’s still very divided…so…but there’s… I don’t know…I’d say maybe…it’s really small. There’s less than a thousand families in… Page 17 �TYLENDA: Right. ENGLEHART: In west Michigan…really in Grand Rapids. TYLENDA: ah huh. ENGLEHART: So not a very big…not a very big community. TYLENDA: I mean… yeah cause I live back home, right by West Bloomfield. My cousins are Jewish so I’m really familiar. ENGLEHART: Yeah. TYLENDA: That’s a really big area. ENGLEHART: A big area. TYLENDA: yeah ENGLEHART: Yeah…here your definitely a minority... to be Jewish... its…I think there’s a lot of……again a lot of stereotypes that people have that are not accurate and… TYLENDA: mmhhmm ENGLEHART: So it’s also a good opportunity as visible as I have been to also educate people. TYLENDA: You’re certainly in the position to do that…that’s good. ENGLEHART: Yeah it’s been interesting...deep breath...no I don’t want a Christmas present thank you… JOHNSON: You get Christmas cards and stuff? ENGLEHART: Oh yeah, all the time. TYLENDA: aagghh ENGLEHART: Yeah I mean I’m not easily offended I just think it’s interesting because people … TYLENDA: Assess so much ENGLEHART: Well and they just…even if they know they still send your Christmas card. TYLENDA: Man. ENGLEHART: It’s like ok, whatever, hahaha. I’m on your list. Ok. JOHNSON: Alright. Well thank you so much. Page 18 �ENGLEHART: I hope you have some information and if there is anything else…I can’t think what else I could tell you my gosh. TYLENDA: That was perfect. ENGLEHART: My life is kind of like an open book. TYLENDA: We’ll certainly reference that article too you have online ENGLEHART: Yeah, I think that’s a good article to really like…aagghh...I sign here it looked like you guys are supposed to sign down here, is that right? JOHNSON: I mean I can fill that out but yeah…I just need your signature. ENGLEHART: Oh JOHNSON: And then you can keep this one ENGLEHART: oh ok JOHNSON: Is that right? TYLENDA: Yeah one of them is for her, I think. ENGLEHART: oh ok the interviewer’s name. You want my address here? TYLENDA: Ah you can just put the school if you want. ENGLEHART: No I… cause Grand Valley…I know… I get all of their… are you kidding once you give money to Grand Valley TYLENDA: You can’t get away. ENGLEHART: I’m on every one of their lists. Kind of hard to get away from Grand Valley. There the best at fundraising there is. JOHNSON: Should we now do the introduction that we kind of skipped over in the beginning? ENGLEHART: Oh JOHNSON: That we’re TYLENDA: What do you mean? JOHNSON: That we’re meeting here with… ENGLEHART: oh ha. Page 19 �JOHNSON: Jeanne Englehart at the Grand Rapids Child Discovery Center TYLENDA: And I’m Evan Tylenda. Jason: I’m Jason Send. Phil: I’m Phil Joslyn. JOHNSON: I’m Connor Johnson. TYLENDA: And that concludes our interview. END OF INTERVIEW Page 20 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3b4d04bd9ddba33dfe3b5cc287342370.mp3 4159a964c2d604688e02418cbd4965e9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Englehart_Jeanne Title A name given to the resource Jean Englehart audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Englehart, Jean Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Evan, Tylenda Johnson, Connor Send, Jason Joslyn, Philip Description An account of the resource Jeanne was raised in Atlanta, Michigan. She is a successful business women in the West Michigan area. She discusses how she became the successful woman that she is today. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-22 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8bcddbc48ba0b9a88ed0ab81905850ca.pdf eb09fe4d2359e5506753cc80f15264d3 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Donald Cullen Interviewers: Ian Baert and Heather Taylor Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/26/2012 Biography and Description Donald Cullen grew up near Royal Oak, Michigan. After being in the 4th Marine division on Iwo Jima, he was stationed in Hawaii before returning to Michigan. Donald now lives in Whitehall, Michigan, near his daughters. His love for the game of golf is as great now as it was back in high school. He discusses war. Transcript CULLEN: Well compared to the, the P-8 that’s a big ship you know. BAERT: Um hm CULLEN: It’ll hold a couple thousand men. Well, you know you’re bobbin up and down like this, you know that it’s stationary, and (pauses) a guy gets crushed in there. BAERT: Oh Really BENEDICT: (Interrupts) after he comes… CULLEN: Next that sticks in my mind more than anything… (Daughter Interrupts again) BENEDICT: After he comes, after he comes home BAERT: Yea? BENEDICT: Uh, makes it through everything over there, and then that’s what happened to him CULLEN: And then when we get aboard the P-8, and the guy says, “What do you, (stutters), what do you want to eat? Swiss steak or something else you know? (Daughter and narrator laugh). After eatin’ rations for a month (everyone laughs more), you know? He says, “I don’t care.” They even had ice cream with that meal, uh so, it was uh… (Interrupted) BENEDICT: Didn’t you want spam Dad? (Everyone laughs) CULLEN: You know I’ll tell you one thing, I never, (stutters), I never minded spam. BENEDICT: Uh hm CULLEN: I didn’t always, (stutter), I mean compare to some of the other things we had I think. But it was, I was in an outfit that has a lot of guys from Detroit. That’s where I was from, Detroit, and it was, I don’t Page 1 �know, about 50% guys from right, (stutters), right around the Detroit area. I went to one, (paused) reunion they had, like you know just the guys in our outfit that was from around Detroit there. BAERT: Um hm CULLEN: And I never went to anymore that was it. (Chuckles) BAERT: Yea BENEDICT: Tell Ian when you went down to sign up dad. This is a good story. When you went down to sign up. CULLEN: I (stutters) I don’t know what you’re talking about. BENEDICT: Well, well… CULLEN: I know when I went down there BENEDICT: Yea, and you told me that you were gonna sign up for the army CULLEN: Oh, oh yea I wanted to go in the airborne, hmm, cause I had a, my brother was in the airborne, And, the guy says, “No.” he says, “We got our quota, we take the first 500 men.” that day for the army, and so he says, “We got Navy, Coast Guard, or Marine Core.” And I said, “Oh, I’ll take the Marine Core.” (Chuckles) And that was uh, (paused), the guys never thought nothing of it, it was, but uh I didn’t want that Navy, they was, (daughter chuckling in the background), I was reading about it in the paper all the time. Those ships were getting sunk right out of New York Harbor. I says, “I want, I want dry land.” (Everyone laughs). BENEDICT: And Charley. Bill’s dad, he went down and he wanted to be in the Navy, cause he loved that water. Oh no, no, he couldn’t, they put him in the infancy 2:35 – 2:40 BAERT: Oh, I never knew… (Interrupted) CULLEN: (interrupts) Well uh…… BENEDICT: They do? BAERT: So you grew up around Detroit CULLEN: Yep I was uh, in uh, I was uh drafted. BAERT: Uh hm CULLEN: and uh, I was a draft warden for 62 out of Plymouth, MI. That was just, not too far from here. (Waiter comes takes drink orders, etc.) BAERT: That’s where all of my roommates are at, right around from Detroit, like uh. CULLEN: You, (stutters), you are? BAERT: My roommates are right around from Detroit. Livonia… Page 2 �CULLEN: Yep, that’s where I was BAERT: Yep, and… CULLEN: Livonia BAERT: uh Royal Oak, they have that big theater there. CULLEN: That’s where I was born, Royal Oak BAERT: Oh really? Yep, that’s where one of my roommates is from and he lives two blocks from the theater down there, so its uh, that’s why I was just curious though. CULLEN: Royal Oak Township. BAERT: Yep, it’s uh, it’s a nice area. CULLEN: I, I don’t even know what it’s like. BAERT: Oh Really? CULLEN: I was move away from there when I was just a little 3:36 – 3:42???? BAERT: Um, so you were, so you were drafted, uh we were talking about um, your childhood, um like, did you have any, like dreams jobs when you were younger? CULLEN: No BAERT: No CULLEN: Uh I, I think uh why I went in uh engineer outfit is uh I’d worked as a carpenter’s helper, you know, roofing houses, and I think that’s why they, why I went in a engineers. BAERT: Uh hm But I never had no, I wasn’t a carpenter I was just a, haul the lumber and nail em’. BAERT: Yea BENEDICT: Well wouldn’t you say caddying was a dream job for yea? CULLEN: (laughing) Oh, I, I caddied for a long time. BAERT: Yea? BENEDICT: (laughing) Oh Yea BAERT: I was going to do that for a ser too. I (stuttered) looked into that, that would have been a fun job. I love golf so, that would have been nice, but… CULLEN: Wouldn’t it? I think uh, well the, the guys around, I ….4:38 – 4:40 With a fella, well we was in school all the time, and uh, boy we played every golf course around this time of the year. You know, when they was closed up, and we knew they would be open (laughing) BAERT: Yea (laughing) Page 3 �CULLEN: We’d go out to Birmingham, or Oakland Hills, (laughing) drive right up the club, There was no other cars around BENEDICT: Just like they were members (laughing) CULLEN: Yea with an old 36’ Ford (laughing) BAERT: Yea (laughing) CULLEN: Henry, this guy that hung around us all the time. He had uh, he worked at Cadillac’s BAERT: Yea? CULLEN: And he drove the cars off the assembly line out into the parking lot there, you know, wherever they need them. (Laughing) And there he had to get into that old 36’ Ford, he had to drive it (5:17 - 5:23) and they don’t have no brakes you know them old 36’ Fords, mechanical brakes, and they never worked (everyone laughs). It was (paused) Henry he went into uh, he went into the Army after the war, and maybe he was little younger than me, I don’t know, and he went over in Korea. He was playing polo all the time, riding horses. I guess he had a good time doing that (laughing). BAERT: Yea definitely CULLEN: He was uh, we caddied together and played golf together all the time. He was a nice buddy. I watched hockey, not watched it, I mean I listened to it. We’d play table tennis, you know, in a garage with a (laughing) a little (6:26-6:30) we was always bumping our head on that thing. Anyway, that’s when Detroit won the first 3 games against Toronto. What was it 1942? (Laughing) Well I thought maybe you knew the hockey… BENEDICT: Dad, I was still a star in heaven (laughing) CULLEN: Detroit wins the first 3 games just blowing Toronto out. They lose the next four. BAERT: Oh, wow CULLEN: I think 1942 BENEDICT: So we come to be Red Wing’s Fans from way back. BAERT: Do you have any Siblings? Did you have any brothers or sisters? CULLEN: Yea there was five of us, and my oldest sister, she’s gone, and so is my older brother. And my younger sister, she uh not doing good, her minds going, like mine is too. Donna told me to, 7:27 – 7:35 I, I drive over here I thought she told me to meet her over here. BENEDICT: I said, I see him at the casway and I said to Bill, well there goes dad, (laughter). Good thing it’s a small town. We can track him down (laughs). CULLEN: I pulled in over here this morning I thought it was at 9:00. Page 4 �BAERT: Ah CULLEN: The cop was across the street waiting, boy I had to be careful I didn’t do anything wrong. He was just waiting for someone to pull a boner, and he was going to nail them. I don’t mind the police being on alert like that cause I, I usually drive I think slow enough. I don’t, I don’t speed too much. But uh, you know most the time when I’m driving, every once in a while I’ll look and if I see a speed limit sign, I’ll look at the speedometer, you know the speedometer, I’m going exactly what that reads up there. Now is that just, I don’t BENEDICT: That’s talent, that’s skill (laughter) CULLEN: But honestly I’ll, if it says 25 I’ll be maybe doing 26 or 27, but right in there BAERT: Yea, that’s what I usually do too, so. BENEDICT: Dad has also a younger brother. BAERT: Oh ok CULLEN: Yep, Jack he’s a. Does he? Jack was a brickplayer. That longed for me to… BENEDICT: (interrupts) 8:59 CULLEN: He uh, we worked together for a while trimming trees for the city of Detroit, well that was, we enjoyed that I think both of us. We had nice foreman. I think having a good ser means a lot to a job. It makes the day go by so much faster. I gotta tell you this story with this foreman we had. He’s great big guy. Big teeth, just a big smile on his face all of the time. We’re trimming on this street you know, I knock down a branch or maybe about this big, and (estimates size) just about covered all the way across the road. And there’s, oh about this much snow I’d say (estimates again), fresh snow. This UPS guy he’s coming along, and he’s got a delivery, he’s pushing this branch along. This big ol’ foreman we got he said, “Can’t you read that sign, it says do not enter.” “Road closed.” And he’s getting pushed backwards and he’s got feet about like that (laughs). He’s a great big guy. He loses his temper, the first time I ever seen him lose his temper. He says. “Goddamn you!” He says, “Stop it!” (Laughs)I never seen Harvey, Harvey Brinks was a 10:27, never seen him get like that, but there he, he got pushed off edge by 15, 20 feet backwards. The guy couldn’t get across that, Harvey’s feet was there. He couldn’t get away. It ticked me, you know, I was, having a bird’s eye view I was up the tree watching it. Oh, that Harvey was a… Then we, we went over on another Street, Boston Blvd, maybe you know that. Well, that was the wealthiest street in Detroit, you know way back. Henry Ford lived there, and the whole haul of General Motor people. Everybody that had money lived on Boston Street. The trees hadn’t been trimmed in about 20 years, since the WPA had been there. They were way up there; they had trees up there about 80 feet somewhere, Elm trees, big ones. We’d be up there climbing around. Harvey was up and say, “Coffee!” (Laugh) He’d just like to see us come sailing down out of some trees. It was his way of having a good day. He was uh, really uh, good foreman. I liked him a lot. He had a, had a brother that was into racing. (Stammers a little) Page 5 �His brother in law bought this Lincoln, or (paused), I think it was Lincoln. And that was the fastest thing, you know for the track, riding on the track PAULINE: Oh ok CULLEN: Like what they’re doing today. I, I see that on television every once in a while. They had a big crack up yesterday. Did you happen to see that or anything? BAERT: I saw it on ESPN, yea CULLEN: I was watching that… BENEDICT: Oh is that a NASCAR or? CULLEN: Yea about 3 or 4 of them right together coming into, they only had about a half a, not even half a lap to go. BAERT: Yea the quarter turn, cause uh, the 11th place guy at, right before the crash ended up winning the race. CULLEN: (laughing) Yep! BAERT: Which is weird so (laughing) CULLEN: you know there was a car there I was watching, he was, I think he had the most speed. But boy they kept him pinned in back there. BENEDICT: Well I think they use that as a strategy don’t they? To kind of widdle people out. BAERT: What did your parents do? CULLEN: What? BAERT: What did you parents do for work? CULLEN: Oh I don’t know (laughter). My mother she was a worker, my dad was an outman. Then he had a pool hall over in Highland Park. I, I never, I think I, I didn’t spend I don’t think 3 hours in that pool hall. I, I never, I rather play table tennis more than pool. BAERT: Yea CULLEN: Look it there’s the dog tag I got. BENEDICT: Yea this is um, Dad’s dog tag. BAERT: Oh this is awesome! BENEDICT: Yep, isn’t that great that we found, we were, um looking for, uh the toy box um grandma, she had a toy box for all of us grandchildren you know, and um Jenna now that she has a child. She said, “Oh can you find grandma’s toy box?” So dad and I were down in the basement looking around. We found his (sea bag 14:02 – 14:05). BAERT: Oh Really? Wow. Page 6 �BENEDICT: And I said, “Look it dad.” And it was his I.D. and, um his dog tag was in it, and we had cleaned out a couple other boxes and I said, “And what’s this?” and I pulled this great big piece of metal out of his (sea bag) about this long (gestures), all the cleaning and looking was over when I found that, that uh gun barrel. (Laughing) CULLEN: Oh (laughing). My brother Jack had sent into the army, and he got an old rifle and uh then he bought an extra gun barrel, because they didn’t recommend that gun barrel that was on there. That it may not be useful, so then Jack bought an extra barrel, and he gave it to me. Well, it’s a, I don’t know if you know rifles or not, but there are some that have 3 grooves and some of them got 4. Well the 4 groove it shoots a little straighter, it puts a little more spin on it. BENEDICT: So he has me looking, and I’m not (stutters), I don’t know what I’m looking for. He says, “Hold it up to the light hunny. I can’t see it real good. Is that a 3 groove or a 4 groove?” Well what on Earth am I looking for? (Daughter laughs) So I have this barrel… (Interrupted) CULLEN: Riflemen’s the only ones that have any, uh knowledge of that. You know most people pick up a rifle and they don’t know… (Background noise, multiple people talking) BENEDICT: Dad knew he had it but didn’t know where it was, well they it laid at the bottom of the, of a (sea bag). CULLEN: Did you look at that close Donna? BENEDICT: Yea I looked at it close. CULLEN: No but there’s something on there I bet you didn’t notice. See that little “C” over there? BENEDICT: Uh hm CULLEN: That’s what denomination we are. See I was baptized Catholic BENEDICT: Oh, ok MR BENEDICT: Show Ian CULLEN: And type “O” blood. That’s when I went in 1943. PAULINE: That’s pretty nice. BENEDICT: Isn’t that something to put that on there? BAERT: It is. BENEDICT: Yea DAVE: See that was, when I went in, in the 80’s that was uh, you’re religion was a big (16:02 – 16:06 BENEDICT: Oh yes GUY 1: I bet you it isn’t anymore. PAULINE: It might be. Page 7 �BENEDICT: But you, but you look at, um the cemetery, um you know Arlington National they all have record if you are Christian, or whether you are Jewish or… CULLEN: What other questions you got? BAERT: Well I was just looking at, uh like, well we already talked about like, if you had any like, where you saw yourself in 10 years and stuff like that. Did you play any sports when you were younger, when you were a kid? You remember playing sports with your friends or anything like that? CULLEN: Well we played sports, uh all, like um when I got out of the service we went my brother; my brother took over my grandmother’s house right down pretty close to the ball park. BAERT: Oh ok CULLEN: On Balt and Temple. It was right on ….street 17:11. There was my older brother Gordon, and Jack and I and then there was Cullen family across the road (laughing). BAERT: Yea? BENEDICT: No relation CULLEN: (Laughing) Yea no relation, two boys, and then Henry and Mrs. Lawrence would come over. That’s it. But uh I always ched around with Henry. He had blond hair and his brother had black hair, Chet. Anyways, we had almost a softball team right there, the three of us with two across the road, and Henry and Lawrence, they’d come. We’d play softball almost every night. BAERT: Oh right? CULLEN: At Naple Field, and we had a short right field fence and, well the street run there, the way the ball diamond was outlaid. I played short right field there. We was playing black guys. You know they, they loved to play ball. Anyways, there was one hit out there to me and I caught it, and I threw it into, Lawrence was catching. He tagged a guy out. The guy couldn’t make it from third base (laughter). Well it was a short right field wall and all; you know it never went out very far. You only got a single if you hit it over the fence; you know at a certain so many posts down. Then it was a double and then there was an entrance way down there and I think if you had it past that it was a homer. BAERT: Oh yea? (Laughs) CULLEN: Isn’t that something? BAERT: Yea CULLEN: The way we had it figured single, double, and then a homer (laughs). But uh, it was the bat boy for the tigers, well Lawrence our catcher he uh went with his sister who was Lawrence’s girlfriend, isn’t that something? (Laughs) BAERT: Yea BENEDICT: Did it get you into the games? Page 8 �CULLEN: uh they never got me into the games. Lawrence’s did, but I mean they called him Tarzan, all the girls were on there, cause he had long black hair. The only one, you know, that had long hair. I don’t think I’ve ever had long hair in my lifetime except when I was a real little guy BENEDICT: How’d you like Stevie’s hair yesterday? Did that remind you of Christopher or what? (Laughs) CULLEN: I use to cut the boys hair but, then they got so big and they wanted long hair, so I hung up the clippers. BENEDICT: And my mom, Christopher had beautiful curly hair and he didn’t want to have his hair cut you know, and mom didn’t want him to get his hair cut. Here’s dad clipping the other boy’s hair and poor Christopher, you know he would run and hide (laughs). Well now he has a son and Stevie showed up, and it was the spitting image. I couldn’t believe it, it was my baby brother right there his child with long hair, and he’s a hockey player. I said… (Waitress comes and clears table) I said I didn’t know if I should call him Justin Bieber or not. He had the bangs all over. (laughs) but tell, yea, tell him, I want you to tell Ian the story about, um when you guys were cadian and the cadies could play on Mondays. CULLEN: Monday mornings. Henry 20:46 and I, we’d be the first ones out there. We’d play 18 holes before there’d be, uh footprints of anybody else on the course. BAERT: Wow CULLEN: We’d play 18 holes and there wouldn’t be no other caddies out there yet. Now, that’s going around a pretty good time. BENEDICT: What was the name of the course, um Forest… CULLEN: Forest Lake BENEDICT: Forest Lake, and um a friend of mine, son, was getting married and they would come down there. And so they were going to hold the reception at Forest Lake Country Club. So I said to dad, “Do you know where Forest Lake Country Club is?” I got to tell you a story about Forest Lake, but anyhow. Really, it’s very ritzy place now, but what did you say that the course was um private then went public? CULLEN: Yep, during the wartime cause people didn’t have gas to travel very far. Everybody had a ticket right on your windshield. You know, when you went into the gas station. You had service men in there, they’d come out. Well you had to show your card, and then they’d punch it too so you couldn’t get more gas then what you were allowed. You were only allowed so much gas a week. I don’t think this country really realized how much the United States dedicated to that war. I mean everybody it wasn’t just… BAERT: That’s what we were talking about the difference between, um like, a limited war and like a full war went. That entire economy, everything was dedicated to the war effort compared to like now where it’s hardly ever, hardly at all. Was there anything else besides gasoline that everyone struggled at, that was rationalized? 22:47-22:49 CULLEN: Oh I, I think, uh meat too, I think you had to have, uh food stamps. It was I think everything, but everybody was into it. I mean I don’t care, the whole family everybody would do certain things. Page 9 �BENEDICT: Uh hm, or gave up certain things, yep. CULLEN: My sister Joel, that’s, uh older then I am, she was, she worked in the factory. She worked on the B29’s and I didn’t even know they were making the B29’s. Isn’t that something? Marge she worked in the factory too. That was my oldest sister. She was 9 years older than I was. MR. BENEDICT: So did you get drafted Don? CULLEN: Yes MR. BENEDICT: where’d you go to base? CULLEN: San Diego MR. BENEDICT: Oh yea, Camp Pendleton? CULLEN: What? MR. BENEDICT: Camp Pendleton? CULLEN: No San Diego Base. MR. BENEDICT: Oh really? CULLEN: And then you, up north a ways was Camp Pendleton. I was at the rifle range, uh I think I was there for a week, or two week, I forget now. But uh, you had to go through the rifle range and that was, you know, when you were in boot camp. But that San Diego boot camp, that (24:19 – 24:22) I bet you is a mile. I never seen such a thing and the navy was down at the end of it. The Navy uh, I think they had a boot camp down there at the end of that; but sometimes well I don’t know how many platoons they had but… (Waitress comes to table gain bringing something) I don’t know how many platoons they had… MR. BENEDICT: You want to eat yet? CULLEN: What? MR. BENEDICT: Are you ready to eat? CULLEN: Well uh I was going to eat with Sherrill afterwards, but I don’t, I don’t turn away food very well. (Laughter) I don’t, I don’t eat a lot but whatever I take and put on my plate I eat. BENEDICT: Now how much did you weight when you entered the core? CULLEN: you’re asking questions I don’t know. BENEDICT: How much do you weigh now? CULLEN: well I’m losing weight now, but I was 157 pound for 30, 40 years. I didn’t have to get on the scale to know how much I weighed, I weighed the same. (Background noise, joking around, and laughter) Page 10 �[After returning from the buffet area] CULLEN: Are you familiar with Muskegon? PAULINE: A little, I have been here years ago. I haven’t been around here in a long time CULLEN: What do they call it? The steak and agger. PAULINE: Oh? CULLEN: We went there at 9 o’clock in the morning and honestly it’s all, I don’t know how much bigger it is than this here place, maybe two or three times bigger. Almost all the seats were taken. BAERT: Oh really? Wow. CULLEN: At 9 o’clock in the morning. For breakfast. PAULINE: It must be a good place then. CULLEN: Oh, you know what? I said Bill, I think, I said, in fact I must be a big man, big eater because everybody, everybody, honestly the biggest servings you have ever seen. Really I have never seen anything like that! [Chuckles from group in the background] CULLEN: but uh, I talked with a fella that he wants to know about when I caddied. He is with Michigan, what is it? I don’t know what Bobby is with. What is the topper? What does he have to do with? The Michigan golf association or something? BENEDICT: GAM? Golf? Yeah the golf association of Michigan CULLEN: He was down there at the steak and agger. BENEDICT: When? CULLEN: Yesterday Morning. But he left at 9 o’clock. We just missed him. BENEDICT: And he’s been um he’s been battling severe cancer. He has been at the U of M. CULLEN: he is getting where he can drive a car. But he called me up every once in a while [in laughter]. One time I told him lets go over and play Lincoln fields. He says where’s that Don? I say it’s like in golf cars. He said it reminds me of the fields around our house growing up as a young kid. I says it got the nickname Lincoln fields. Oh he laughed! He has never got over that. BENEDICT: And his other friend didn’t particularly care for that. CULLEN: oh no. the guy we played golf with all the time Ken, he didn’t think that was funny at all. [Laughter from others]. Bill: One time I asked him how his golf game was, and he said a lot better than his dad’s game was! Page 11 �BAERT: you said you used to play softball with African-Americans in the area? And stuff like that? Were they treated [cut off] CULLEN: we didn’t have any uniforms, we just played every night. In the ser time. Not on the weekends. And it was um, I think I enjoyed playing that softball more than any sport. I think I liked it more than golf. PAULINE: we played it all the time all day long when I was a kid. CULLEN: Softball? Oh it gets into you doesn’t it? PAULINE: I didn’t really have a mitt for the longest time, I finally asked for a mitt for my birthday. I had one with no pocket in it, the pocket was coming off, and it was the only thing I had to keep my hand protected. CULLEN: I had an old black mitt, and you know, I punched holes in it and sowed it and put a string, a shoe lace across there, to hold my fingers together. I think afterward I see others they put leather on and around that up there at the top you know? And sowed their fingers together. But I did before they did I think. But that old glove... we used to play the ford republic. Have you heard of the ford republic? BAERT: I think I have heard of it. CULLEN: well Henry Ford had a place for wayward kids and uh, they had a big, what is it, a big farm. They had all kinds of things there. We used to play them. We used to go and play the Ford republic there and in softball, or baseball. I was pitching one time, I threw, I was the pitcher, I threw nine curve balls and struck out three guys. In nine pitches, they never touched the ball. Against the ford republic. But somebody stole my glove down there. Yeah that black one I had the black lace around it. So I went down there the next day and told em, I told the coach I said somebody stole my glove yesterday. He said he thinks he knew who just gone done it. And he went and looked in these guys locker and it wasn’t there, went in the next one and there it was. He knew the guys that were stealers. [Laughter in the background] CULLEN: and the coach he, I said someone stole my glove and he said, I think I can find it. And I couldn’t believe it. BAERT: do you remember, like how, when you were a kid, how civil rights were coming up? Or not really? CULLEN: nope, there were no, blacks, it was something to see a black person. You just didn’t see em around our house. BAERT: that was just one thing that we talked about. Um did you notice how society was starting to change more technological more uh emphasis on education at all? Did you ever notice that when you were a kid? How things were changing? CULLEN: no, not too much. I was... I would play hard and go right home to bed. Page 12 �BAERT: yeah this ser I worked in a factory, that’s exactly what I did too. I would work a twelve hour shift, id workout then I was... CULLEN: you would wanna go to bed! BAERT: haha exactly! PAULINE: He may have seen a difference in vehicles over the years being from Detroit. BAERT: before the war, did you have any presumptions or did you have any feelings about the war before3 you entered? CULLEN: oh I don’t think so. BAERT: you don’t think so? Was it, well it was all around you, but was it, was your family really focused on it at all with stamps or anything like that? CULLEN: I remember hearing President Roosevelt when he declared war on Japan. BENEDICT: but your brother was already in the service before wasn’t he? CULLEN: no. BENEDICT: oh he wasn’t? CULLEN: oh, he went in before I did but not very long before I did. BENEDICT: oh ok. CULLEN: I think I got discharged before he did. Couple, maybe two or three weeks but our division was the first one to break up too when the war ended; of the Marine divisions. BAERT: um, how were you treated when you came back? CULLEN: um pretty good, pretty good id say. BAERT: Pretty good? That was the one difference between each war when people came back, and how they were treated. CULLEN: I think everyone was treated the same, I think you got three hundred dollars. BAERT: oh really? CULLEN: Must turn out payment. Uh, I don’t think people got any more or any less, it was three hundred dollars and everyone got the same. BENEDICT: yeah, but think how the Vietnam vets were treated dad. Think about the Vietnam vets were treated when they came back. BAERT: yeah they were harassed and different things like that for a long time. Page 13 �CULLEN: oh... I don’t think we had any of that. BAERT: Oh, did you earn any service medals or any ribbons or anything like that? CULLEN: no. BAERT: No? CULLEN: oh, I got some citation for the unit citation; you know the citation everyone in our outfit got one. BAERT: oh ok. Um well after the war what kinda like jobs did you have, and uh like where you decided to settle down? CULLEN: it was pretty hard for me, I’d take, one year I think I had 6 or 7 jobs. BAERT: On the west side of the state? Over here? CULLEN: around Michigan, around Detroit. [Chuckles] I think I worked for the city the longest; I worked there a couple years. About 3 years. BENEDICT: and then how did you come up here dad? CULLEN: How’d I come up here? Well my mother had, lived just out here, on silver crick road. And uh, I used to come up here. I seen and ended up playing golf at white lake, I used to play at white lake. MR. BENEDICT: That’s where he met his wife BAERT: oh ok CULLEN: I got to meet her, and next thing we got married. It was uh Nina was now Max peach, this is a story from Max peach she is an old timer out there. But Nina beat all the men down there one Sunday morning; her golf score was lower than any of the men [chuckles]. And Max, he never forgets a thing. He knows just how far he hit the ball on number 8! At white lake. [Laughter in the background] CULLEN: I even forgot that. BENEDICT: it was amazing that we are living out there and being out there. Having that be our golf course and that’s where they met. PAULINE: that’s pretty neat. BENEDICT: then Jenna, our daughter, met her husband there; he was the assistant pro at the golf course and met Eric at White lake. PAULINE: so how did the men take getting beat by a woman, did they handle it very well? [Laughter breaks out] Page 14 �CULLEN: Ma that tickled max peach more than anybody. BAERT: when you were raising your kids, you rose them on the west side right? CULLEN: they all went to Montigue. BAERT: how do you think that was different for them from you, growing up in Detroit? CULLEN: ohh I think they have way more to offer the kids this day, but uh I think like the, I told Donna the other day I took two hours of typing in ah, I never monkied with a type writer sense, and the key board, I still remembered it. BENEDICT: I showed him my cell phone, the texting, and he knows that they were the same way the type writer was? And I said yeah. And he rattled off the order of the keys. BAERT: oh yeah? CULLEN: and I haven’t picked up a type writer in… I have not been around one sense I was in school, in 9th grade. END OF INTERVIEW Page 15 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b3b4bd04e3de773a30524bc505bd2c3f.mp3 30d68b880445b5734a29f13467703995 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Cullen_Donald Title A name given to the resource Donald Cullen audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cullen, Donald Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Baert, Ian Taylor, Heather Description An account of the resource Donald Cullen grew up near Royal Oak, Michigan. After being in the 4th Marine division on Iwo Jima, he was stationed in Hawaii before returning to Michigan. Donald now lives in Whitehall, Michigan, near his daughters. His love for the game of golf is as great now as it was back in high school. He discusses war. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Veterans--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-26 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b73a7e5f993aa23580f5d974ee4dfca1.pdf 56d02c3fe2370c51d1564ed980d476e3 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Arlene Akker Interviewers: Kelly Gorajec, L. Bailey, B. Harter, and Z. Huyser Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/22/2012 Biography and Description Arlene Akker is a teacher at Muskegon High school. She was born and raised in Muskegon Heights. She discusses racism and diversity growing up in Muskegon. Transcript Kelly Gorajec (GORAJEC): I’m here today with Arlene Akker, my name is Kelly Gorajec, its February 22nd, at 3:03 PM at Muskegon High School in Muskegon, Michigan. We’re here today to talk about your experiences with civil rights in west Michigan. So, can you give me some basic information about yourself? Arlene Akker (AKKER): Well, my name is Arlene Akker; I’m a teacher at Muskegon High School. I was born and raised in Muskegon Heights, Muskegon. I have lived on Amity Avenue by Steele Middle School. I went through Angel and Steele, and then because my mother taught at Muskegon High School, I had to go through a private high school, but I took classes here. And, I have a degree in History and English and I have lived in Muskegon for a long time. GORAJEC: do you have any children? AKKER: I have two children, they are both adults. GORAJEC: Can you tell me about where you went to school? AKKER: Well I went to Angel and Steele school, which as you know, an elementary or at least it was an elementary school and middle school to Muskegon public schools. I had, when I was at Angel school, the very first African American teacher in the Muskegon Public Schools. She was my fifth grade teacher (that’s interesting) she was also my teacher at the time that Kennedy was assassinated so there’s a lot of history there. And she’s still very active in the school and I am so glad when I see her. I went to Steele during the civil rights movement and I was also a student at Steele school at the time Martin Luther King was assassinated. So I lived through riots down Amity Avenue where our windows were broken in our homes, and I didn’t really feel safe all the time walking home, but that did pass. GORAJEC: Yeah. So, since you have always lived in west Michigan, can you tell me why you didn’t decide to leave, or can you elaborate why you’re still here? Page 1 �AKKER: Well it’s my home. It’s where my husband grew up, and my *immediate+ family is here and, actually my *extended+ family is not here any longer they’ve moved away. I did live for a year in Holland or two years when I went to Hope College, and I lived one year in Florida, very glad I don’t live there anymore. , I have always felt the Muskegon had a certain diversity that I appreciated. Living in Florida in a city called Altarnonte Springs, I taught in a city called Sanford in an all-white school where they were very segregated and would not allow students of color into their school, which drove me nuts, that was not my life. So I was very glad to get back here. GORAJEC: Did race like, play a big role in your growing up? AKKER: I think racial tensions when I was little were very covert in Muskegon. I didn’t realize that we had any racial tensions. Angel school was, at the time, probably a very diverse school, but it would look very “white” today, but I had friends of all colors, friends of all ethnicities. I had two best friends, one was Jewish, one was black and that just never occurred to me that there was any problem, not in elementary school. When our neighbor, my first neighbors, sold their house to a black family, I found out what racism was because my parents were racist. They were extremely upset. GORAJEC: Can you tell me about your experience with that, like, were you surprised? AKKER: I was shocked. It’s like “what’s going on?” you know? It was not something that I really felt was a problem cause I had not felt any racial tensions, but, my parents continued to live there several years later. But it was something that I was aware of and as that house sold, many houses in our neighborhood went up for sale and that was probably my first real experience of understanding what racism was. I also had a very good friend who was black in elementary school and we went through sixth grade. So sixth grade went to, we got taken out to lunch with our teachers if we won the math quiz and my friend and I went out to lunch without teacher and we were not served because my friend was black. That was at Walgreen’s downtown, and no one realizes that Walgreen’s had a restaurant back then, before we had a mall, before the mall was torn down, so yeah, we were served, but much later than we had planned. Much later than when everyone else was served. GORAJEC: Have you, you said that you’ve traveled outside of west Michigan, has that affected your view of the world and where you come from in a way? Like how has that compared to here in west Michigan? AKKER: Hmm I’ve traveled through the United States, Mexico, Canada, and seven European countries and the world outside of Muskegon is much larger than people realize. I think that going to Europe really opened my eyes because Americans at the time that I was in Europe were not really appreciated. It was after Vietnam, but it was before some of the tensions that we have in the Middle East at this point, so we had that tension between the Cold War, I mean it was kind of??? and being in Europe and being in America after, even though I was in Western Europe and they were not a part of the so called “Iron Curtain” countries or the Soviet Union, there was still a certain amount of tension. the United States, just traveling around you see all types of people and it doesn’t matter what color they are. There are some very wealthy, very impoverished, and that’s what I see when I travel and I see different pockets of the country much different from Muskegon is or west Michigan. I have a very close friend in Kentucky who was taught in high school that slavery was necessary to run the tobacco fields in Kentucky, because that’s how they made their money, they didn’t have to learn economics. It was an industry that they had that they felt it was necessary. It wasn’t right but it was necessary. When she told me that I about died, I was like “whoa, this is not something I’m familiar with”. Page 2 �GORAJEC: You mentioned some of the major changes you’ve lived through; can you tell me about some that you had a personal connection with? AKKER: Well I have several things that I have personal connection with. First of all I have the first African American teacher at Angel school when Kennedy was assassinated, and Kennedy was a person that we have really no idea what kind of president he would have become had he served out two terms, but he was the kind of president that people worshipped. He was young and vibrant and he was definitely a person who wanted to see much more civil rights within our country. That being said, having an African American teacher kind of enhanced that, and we all got into watching his presidency and being so excited that we was president. And she really didn’t swear political beliefs, just wanted to present to us what was going on nationally in our government and being in fifth grade that was a lot to take in and then, being there on November 22 in school when it was announce he had been assassinated and having her as a teacher, going through that with her helped me understand just the kind of connection she had and it brought me into a connection with the Kennedys that has always been there. I have always been an infatuated person with the Kennedys. GORAJEC: Is there anything else? AKKER: yeah, several years ago, probably two or three, there was a movie made in west Michigan, in Muskegon actually, called “Up From the Bottoms.” It was about the influx of black people from the south to work in the north work in Muskegon in the factories as cheap labor during World War II, and they were actually housed in an area that was substandard from where most of the ordinary people in Muskegon lived. Well, my uncle was one of the people in the movie, he has since passed away, but he was one that was instrental in bringing them into Muskegon working for some of the labor factories. He was a personal director for a factory, but he was also one who had a personal transformation when he realized the living conditions and the ignorance that people in Muskegon had toward our “immigrants” you might say, coming in to work in our city, and he actually helped them find jobs or find homes that were suitable. But if you look at the makeup of Muskegon, you can see how Muskegon is laid out. If you go up Russell Road, in the North Muskegon area, you can see a congregation or, inhabitants of black in nature. You’ll see them in Muskegon Heights, and then they have immigrated and migrated into Muskegon. But that’s where the pockets were: Russell Road and Muskegon Heights. GORAJEC: Okay, have you seen any significant progress regarding quality in west Michigan throughout the years? AKKER: Oh yeah. When I talk about my growing up for years thinking that most racism was very covert, I have seen a tremendous change in the school’s makeup, our society’s makeup, how we view people. As I got older and I saw much more racism, I realized that we we’re supposed to all be created equal, so what’s going on with this little pocket of racism? So, I saw a transformation in people. Especially working in the position I do, in the school district I do. I’ve seen it evolve into an acceptance; not that you don’t see color, but an acceptance of everybody. It doesn’t matter what the color of a person’s skin is, it’s a matter of “Hey, you’re a kid and I’m going to go teach you!”, and so, that’s how I’ve seen a change. GORAJEC: Have you seen any areas where not much progress has been made? AKKER: In our court system. Page 3 �GORAJEC: Can you tell me more about that? AKKER: I still see a very large amount of people who are tried and being found, being tried for crimes, being jailed for crimes. And I can’t say that they aren’t guilty, but it just seems to me that there’s many more black people in our prison system than there is white. There’s also more Hispanic in our system than there is white, and that’s where I’ve seen it. I’ve seen it on advertisements on TV, there’s still an inequality. Oh, and probably in our law enforcement. There’s still inequality there, I still believe that people are targeted for their race in our law enforcement. GORAJEC: Do you feel that a lot of the progress is unjust like in the courts system or does it feel wrong to you at all? AKKER: Mhmm GORAJEC: Is there any specific reason? AKKER: I don’t have an answer for it yet, okay, it feels wrong. I can’t say people aren’t guilty that are being tried I just feel that more people are arrested that are black than of white skin color. GORAJEC: Okay, was there any point in your life that you felt discriminated by others or felt that you didn’t fit in for some reasons? AKKER: I’m a woman, and I’ve been alive for fifty plus years. I’ve seen discrimination because I am a woman. , I have lost out on jobs. Not necessarily in teaching, but other jobs because I am a woman. As I started my career, I worked in management at a hospital and I lost out on a couple of the higher management positions because I am female. I have evolved into not seeing that anymore, maybe because in teaching I don’t think there is a discrimination between male and female, but there certainly was as I was growing into an adult, going into school, wanting to take certain classes being told “Eh, you know, you’re a female, you probably shouldn’t have goals to do that. You should be a secretary, or a nurse. That was the things I was told rather than ‘be anything you want’.” GORAJEC: Okay, have there been any moments in your life that you faced adversity in a memorable way? AKKER: Hmm well this has nothing to do with diversity. But, as a young child I was teased because I had a wart, so I mean, students teased me. I was teased as a youngster, because I was not terribly athletic, but I became athletic as I grew older. , I was fearful of....well, I don’t know what I was fearful as a youngster, but I became more athletic so I faced adversity as I was teased, but I think that as I’ve grown older I haven’t faced a lot of adversity. Gee, that’s terrible I should think about that. Maybe I’ve blocked some of it out! I don’t know, I was never as smart as I wanted to be, even though I was very smart. , but adversity is within the person, but not society. GORAJEC: you’ve already talked a little about your relationship with the civil rights movement, but have you or somebody you know ever been personally affected by the time period as a whole? AKKER: During the early seventies, when we had some real racial tensions, it was after the Civil Rights Movement, after Martin Luther King was assassinated, we still had some real racial tensions here in Muskegon. My brother in law was driving home from a place on Wood Street where he worked, and he Page 4 �had his window open, and he drove down Jackson Avenue, and at the time it was a stereotypical area where people of my race would fear because there were a lot of uprisings against whites. But, his car window was open and somebody threw a pop bottle at him, and cut his face all the way down where he had to have stitches, and to this day my, brother in law can’t even talk to me without having some type of racial slur, even though I’ve talked and talked and talked to him that that was an isolated incident. Things have changed, we have all changed, no matter what race we are, but that has continuously stayed with him. And other than that, the riots I have countered growing up, I was actually in Chicago in April 1968 when King was assassinated, and there were riots all over the streets, and we were shocked. We didn’t know what to do. We were actually escorted out of Chicago to get safely on the highway because of total chaos going on in the city. And that was a scary thing for somebody who was 14 years old. GORAJEC: Do you personally have any civil rights heroes? AKKER: Martin Luther King. , Civil Rights in America, or the world? Because Nelson Mandela is one of my heroes and will always be one for standing up and going to jail. I mean, Martin Luther King went to jail too, but not for 27 years. , to stand up against a party, to stand up against your government and become president of your government is just something that is amazing to me. , a person like a Malcolm X, who takes the “X” as his last name because he has a “slave name”, you know, he has a “name of his master”, as you want to say or speak about it, and even though he was militant, even though he really reacted militantly against so many governmental programs and people, he came to terms with himself. He did convert to Islam, he did become a peaceful person who on his pilgrimage really realized what his heart needed to be, and that really caused his death and caused his people to t against him. John F. Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, you know, there are people all through my growing up years that I’m going to say are probably heroes of mine, because they all had something to do. Even President Johnson people don’t realize how impassioned he was upon civil rights. GORAJEC: Is there any reason why they are significant to you personally or do you just admire them? AKKER: They’re significant because I lived it, and because I saw and followed what they did all throughout my life. My parents, even though there were racial tensions within my family, my parents were very politically in tune with things, and made sure we knew what was going on in the world. I sometimes think that people had distorted images or thoughts or understanding of what was going on, and I think that because my parents were the way they were, I had more of an insight. GORAJEC: Okay, well moving on to your career as a teacher, can you tell me about the predominate background of your students at Muskegon High School? AKKER: Muskegon is an intercity, urban school, and we do say “intercity, urban” because we do include Lakeside and do include Glenside, and those are areas that wealthier (whether that’s good or bad), and that includes outlying areas: the “intercity” of Muskegon. Muskegon has changed drastically since I was a child. There’s a tremendous amount of poverty and, people who aren’t in poverty don’t understand how poverty works, and so the values of my “poverished students” are different from the people in my class, middle class lower middle class, whatever. That being said, the backgrounds of my students fall into several different categories with poverished, to the people whose parents work, to the people who might have a lawyer, doctor, or teacher or professor as a parent. That’s the vast difference when you look at the breakdown of test scores for our school. We are still considered an urban school, and that works against us for testing, unfortunately. Page 5 �GORAJEC: Do you think that.., because the background of the students is so diverse, do you think that has any effect on the school as a whole? AKKER: I think it makes it better. I think it makes everyone understand each other. I mean, I do see pockets of racism. I can’t help it. I can go down to the cafeteria and see an all white table, and an all African American table, and all Hispanic table. But, then I also see an all football team player table, and an all baseball team player table. I would like to see more mix in that. Then, in my classes I don’t, and maybe I’m blind to it, but I don’t see a lot of racism. I see a lot of people working together. GORAJEC: Do you that because students are more willing to mix together in the classroom does that make you feel better? AKKER: It makes me feel better about the fact that my school is probably one of all the schools in the Muskegon country area, my school is most diverse, and I say that because we do have a percentage of African American, a percentage of Hispanic, and a percentage of white. The percentage of African American is higher than white or Hispanic, but it’s not as high as it is in our other schools, and the white population is not as high as it is in other schools. Which, I think helps us become little more diverse, and have more understating of the world around us. GORAJEC: In your career as a teacher have you ever had any memorable instance where one of your students has been discrimination against or faced adversity? AKKER: Yeah, probably too many to come up with right at this moment, and I can’t even think of one specific reason or adverse condition. I’ve had students who are homeless, I’ve had students come to me and say “I don’t have a clean pair of clothes, and people are going to laugh at me cause I’m going to start to smell”. I’ve had students whose parents have just up and left, and they’ve stayed there behind, and that to me is the ultimate in adversity because you’re trying to handle school, and trying to handle whatever extracurricular activities you have, as well as trying to find a home. GORAJEC: Do you think that because you have seen adversity in that way you feel more connected with your students? AKKER: Oh yeah. I’ve heard from people who have been with other teachers from other school districts who look at us and say “How do you do what you do? You go to school, you stay all day, you give kids your phone numbers, you give kids rides home, you do this, you do that. How can you have that kind of connection?” Well, because they don’t have that connection. GORAJEC: So as teacher, do you think that it is important to have that relationship with your student? AKKER: Absolutely, I want my students to trust me. I want my students, if they have any problems, to feel comfortable enough to come talk to me. Whether they tell me their problem or they say “I need help”. I need to know that so that I can point them in the right direction. I think it’s the function of any teacher, but you find it more with urban sprawl. GORAJEC: Have you ever seen the diversity in Muskegon affect the education of the students in any way? Page 6 �AKKER: Ah, yeah. I don’t see that it affects the students in what we teach them, I mean, at this point. What it does, what we’re affected by now is our government interceding and saying “Oh, by the way, your test scores are low; you are going to be evaluated lower. If your test scores are low we are not going to give you as much money,” and everything is dealing with test scores, and no one is looking at the family makeup, no one is looking at the support that our students have, besides the teachers or in school. They’re only looking at “This is the makeup of your test scores,” and instead of dealing with the real problem, which is probably the breakdown of the family, maybe no parental supervision because mom is working five jobs or dad is maybe out of the picture or in prison. I mean, those things happen. And our government just looks at what the teachers do based on test scores. Then I see, as racism or something that is radically wrong with our system, because if you look at the test scores of a suburban school, and I use Mona Shores because my children graduated from Mona Shores, (like that nor not), if you look at the test scores at Mona Shores they’re higher compared to a little bit of a more diverse school. But, many of those kids come from families where their parents are college-educated and employed. Our students are not necessarily from parents like that, or houses like that or homes, you name it. And so because my children, and I can only speak for my children alone, came from a home with two college graduates, they were made to do their homework, they were . . .they traveled everywhere, they saw everything. They had more of a connection to the world than maybe my students have, who have maybe not even seen the shores of Lake Michigan and they live in Muskegon. GORAJEC: Do you think that limits the students in a way? AKKER: I think it limits, our ability to teach the students the best we can because we continually teach to the test because we have to get our students up to the levels that will pass the test in order to become proficient with anything. We are judged by the progress, and if we do not make that a priority, we will not get the funding that we need. And this is happening at Muskegon Heights, which is just a total travesty for the kids there. GORAJEC: Can you tell me a little bit about what’s happening at Muskegon Heights? I haven’t heard anything about that. AKKER: Muskegon Heights has been taken over. , it’s very much in debt and that isn’t necessarily the government’s fault. , but test scores are low. The teachers are doing the best they can. But they have some major problems with funding. They can’t pay teachers and possibly, well intermediate has taken over as far as a superintendent and they are looking at other options. So they do not know what is going on right now. GORAJEC: Do you think that, as a whole, the STMRS community gained a lot from the civil rights struggle, regarding the community makeup and the students and parents? AKKER: That’s a hard one because I think that there has been a major amount of progress in some areas, and in other areas there wasn’t progress at all. , just judging by the people that I’ve known all my life, that may be who I went to school with or who I go to church with, and they are not necessarily as whole on understanding diversity as I am because of whatever they do in this world. They’re not necessarily teachers. And they have some real prejudices set up, and I think that that affects the diversity in the community. GORAJEC: Do you think that, currently, there are issues in Muskegon that need civil rights advocacy? Page 7 �AKKER: Well, yeah because civil rights expand to so much more than things just based on race. There’s gender, there’s disabilities, there’s employment. Who will get the best job? Who will go into a restaurant? Who will be hired first at a job? You know, would it be a white person or would it be a person that is African American or Hispanic? I still can’t solve our problems within our society. But I also think that the knowledge that people need is lacking, because knowledge gives us power. And if we don’t understand and have knowledge of people in general and how they work, they’ll never be fixed. GORAJEC: Is there anything else that you would like to add? AKKER: You know, it’s really funny because you are asking pointed questions that I am all of a sudden going “Huh! I don’t know”. , through all my life I’ve seen definite change. I don’t think that I’ve really emphasized how much change that I’ve seen in Muskegon and in Muskegon High School. When I was a student coming to classes here at Muskegon High School, my mother taught here. The classes were tracked. And so, when you have tracked classes you have people who said quote, unquote “These are the smarter kids.” And well, those classes were predominantly white. “And these are the kids that are struggling,” and those classes were predominantly made up of minorities, at the time mostly African American and possibly some Hispanic. My mother had that impression. When I first started teaching here, she would say “Do you have any honors classes, or all of your classes black?” And I’d look at her and go (makes face) “Ahhh, my classes have all colors in them.” Because my mother was still of that mindset. She was a great teacher, but she was still of that mindset that’s how you are tracking classes. And that doesn’t say to me that all white kids are going to be successful, and all classes with kids of different ethnicities, or minorities, aren’t. Because that’s not true. But I still think that people have that little bit of mindset, and so we don’t track classes other than International Baccalaureate or obviously AP. GORAJEC: Is there anything else about Muskegon as a whole that you’d like to mention? AKKER: Well, it’s changed. The demographics of Muskegon have changed drastically. First of all, you have a downtown section that has stores that people that live in Muskegon can go to, and then you tear it down and you put the mall out in Fruitport. Which is ridiculous. I mean, we all go to the mall, we all love the mall, but then the people who live in poverty in the center of Muskegon have no place to go. So what do we do? We have the city founders coming in, or the city government come in, and say ‘let’s build up Muskegon!’ So you put all these expensive shops in downtown Muskegon, bordering on the demographics of the impoverished of Muskegon, so the poor still can’t go buy anything. And then the couple places that you have that may be inviting to people who are of maybe a lower class, those are (post dp?). And so, that’s what I see with the change in Muskegon. When I grew up we had a downtown. I grew up and I walked right down to Apple Avenue down to stores downtown. I think driving in downtown Muskegon is beautiful, but it does not lend itself to helping those, who surround that area, who have no place to go. GORAJEC: Is there anything else? AKKER: You know, it’s really hard for me to talk about because there’s been so much change and I don’t know where to begin to have a timeline of the change. Great, from the time I was a little girl to the time I live now, I have been involved with Muskegon Public Schools in one way or another. My parents graduated from here in 1935. So I have seen the change, not that I was alive in 1935, but I’ve seen the change in my lifetime. Yet, it has been a gradual change and I don’t see it as drastically as some of the other teachers would say ‘Well, I remember 15 or so years ago when my classes weren’t like they are Page 8 �today,” and they probably weren’t, but it’s been a gradual change for me. And so, I don’t see that as a negative. I see that as part of my job. GORAJEC: Is there anything else that you would like to add? AKKER: You know, I am a child of the civil rights age. I am a child of watching changes, going through the Cold War; I am a Cold War child. I’ve seen ideologies that include the fear of communism. I’ve seen drills that we had in school because we were going to be bombed. And I think that all played into almost making, at least in the sixties, making civil rights more of a minor problem. And it was really a major problem. And I think that we have already seen politicians correct that in some ways. I mean my goodness, in 2008 we elected an African American as president. Never, in my lifetime, did I think that I’d ever see that GORAJEC: Okay, well, thank you so much for your time! AKKER: Thanks END OF INTERVIEW Page 9 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4cad70488270817fd77546c5afc1a551.mp3 a73af457cd5adfa9fb8ccbba13db29ce Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Akker_Arlene Title A name given to the resource Arlene Akker audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Akker, Arlene Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Gorajec, Kelly Bailey, L. Harter, B. Huyser, Z. Description An account of the resource Arlene Akker is a teacher at Muskegon High school. She was born and raised in Muskegon Heights. She discusses racism and diversity growing up in Muskegon Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Racism Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-22 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6f97d56532bbfd21221c3bad56363ab1.pdf 2265684e24c24e93d72fcd10122331e0 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Judith Claytor Interviewers: Paige Goote Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 11/22/2011 Biography and Description Judith Claytor was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan. She graduated from Western Michigan University with a degree in sociology/social work. She discusses the racial and religious differences between living in Grand Rapids and Washington D.C. and attending Western Michigan University. Transcript Paige Goote (GOOTE): My name is Paige Goote and I'm here today interviewing Judith Claytor and its November 22 about 3 o’clock in the afternoon and we are in Grand Rapids Michigan. So today we are here to interview you about your experience with civil rights, in Western Michigan specifically. So I guess we can start with, we can start with some basic information about you. So how old are you? Judith Claytor (CLAYTOR): I am 64. Where do you want me to go with this? GOOTE: What I have here is full name, place and date of birth. CLAYTOR: I am Judith Claytor, I was born in Grand Rapids, in fact was brought home from the hospital to this very house and I... grew up here in Grand Rapids. Went through elementary through high school here. And then went to Western Michigan University and then as an adult moved away and then came back to take care of my...very elderly mother. And have remained here since her death, in 2005. GOOTE: Okay, so you've always been in West Michigan. CLAYTOR: No, I was in Washington D.C. for 30 years. GOOTE: Okay so we went from here to Washington D.C. What did you do in Washington D.C.? CLAYTOR: And I lived in Peru for a couple of years. I married a foreign services officer right out of Western Michigan University and so I was a diplomats wife in Peru for two years, and then we got posted back to D.C. and then... I decided our marriage was not... working out. And I fired him. That’s what I did, I fired him. He was using me as a punching bag and I didn't feel like being such. But be that as it is, that is over and done and I stayed in D.C. my original degree from Western was in sociology/social work, they didn't, they were just developing a social work major as I was leaving and they had a minor in social work and that’s what I did. And so after I got back to D.C. I started doing work that was social service related not necessarily pure social work. I worked for the District of Columbia government as an Page 1 �assistant in the, for the city council. And that was a very unusual experience because the District of Columbia is like no place else, basically in the world, because it's not a state and at the time when I first got there, we could not even vote for the President of the United States. Much less have any representation in Congress. And it’s still that there is no voting representation in Congress, we can vote if you are a District of Columbia resident, you can vote for the President of the United States but as far as being represented that’s it. And the District of Columbia budget has to be approved by Congress even though, even all the amount of money raised in the district. And Congress does supplement some because of all the federal buildings that are part of the district but it is not as generous a compensation as would happen if there was a military installation in a particular state or in a particular region because there are local representatives that would make sure the reimbursement to that area would be far more generous. And so the District of Columbia has to operate in a really peculiar fashion and so you learn a whole lot about government in funny ways and you learn about both the federal and the local government in funny ways because they are so intertwined. GOOTE: I never thought about any of that CLAYTOR: Oh and nobody does, and there is no reason to unless you're right nearby. And so in the job I had I had to sometimes write testimony for my bosses to defend our budget at Congressional hearings. So it was part of my job, on Capitol Hill, defending the District of Columbia’s budget, it was local government but it was odd. So, that was one of the things. GOOTE: Wow. Do you feel like there was a difference between how you were treated in Washington D.C. and West Michigan? CLAYTOR: Oh absolutely. I mean Western Michigan is a place unto itself and I obviously didn't understand nearly how unique it was until I was in the District of Columbia. I remember one of the most startling things that came to my attention was I joined an Episcopal church whose pastor or rector was the son of an RCA pastor. And when growing up here in Grand Rapids I had no idea that there was a different between the Reformed Church of America and the Christian Reformed Church. I just figured they were all Dutch people and they all went to the Reformed Church of some sort and that was it. There wasn't much more to know particularly. But after I met this uh upstanding clergy person, who was also somewhat of a snob, he kind of was... speaking kind of disparagingly of the CRC folks and I thought, "Oh what’s that all about and then began to be more kind of interested in how that developed. The differences between the two denominations and how they came to be two different denominations and one thing and another. And there is another telling piece of how that happened. When I went to, for some reason or another, I don't remember why I was there, but I was in the office of the Roman Catholic bishop’s council or whatever it's called but the organization of the national bishops of the Roman Catholic Church. And they had a map, and it was color coded by region or county or something that would tell you what the predominate denominational affiliation was for the county, for the region, whatever. And there were different colors assigned to main line denominations and there was this bright blue color for "other". And all of Utah was "other" and we could kind of understand that, those of us looking at the map, and all of w Michigan was other and by that point I was the only one who had a clue as to what that "other" meant, but the fact a whole group of people migrated from the Netherlands to the united states to practice a more conservative form of their religion, and it was a whole group of people men women children, the whole shebang that set up here and they set up the whole support system to practice the religion as they wanted too, it ended up having a much greater impact on the community than you would imagine. Really. Page 2 �GOOTE: So did you grow up religious? CLAYTOR: Yeah, I've always been an Episcopalian. My mother was an Episcopalian, and her mother before her was an Episcopalian. But being an Episcopalian here in GR was kind of rare. People looked at you like what in the world is that? And I got to DC and I didn't see any CRC or Reformed churches. RCA types and then later on I found one RCA church and when I got back here I looked up on the computer and there was one CRC church in the whole of the District of Columbia and I thought oh is that interesting. And of course there were Episcopal churches all over the place and so it was a whole different dynamic both religiously and then I began to realize culturally. Because the the way of doing things culturally I think because of a lot of them, at least in the earlier days, the people who relocated here, kind of had a closed group of socialization or what not. And if you were outside that, you were just kind of outside of it. And it created a much more conservative environment and so even now I find that there is much less just plain 'old socialization. Socializing among different groups of people I imagine with young people it's getting better. But Grand Rapids and Western Michigan is so overwhelmingly dominated by couples, if you're not part of a couple, you can hang it up. And in Washington, if you lived and breathed and were friendly with somebody there were gatherings of people who would get together. And there would be married folks and single folks and people of this or that ethic group you know what I mean it was just kind of a mixture and I find that to be much more, it just doesn't occur much here. GOOTE: So would you say that you felt more excluded on the basis of religion and didn't deal as much with being discriminated by your race? CLAYTOR: uh nuh. Race and Religion were kind of all, it was a both and. I mean when my parents bought this house, or my father did cause he married a widow with a child, and, actually a mother. He had set up his medical practice here and had a difficult time as an African American physician setting up a practice. And he had decided he wasn't going to marry until he could support a family. That was just how he saw it. And he actually lived in a rooming house until he married Momma and bought this house. And he couldn't get any of the real estate agents to show him any houses outside the ghetto. And if you look at that portrait up there he doesn't look particularly African American, he kind of could be a lot of different things but the real estate people knew his ethnicity and just wouldn’t show him places and so he meandered around and bought this house from the owner. And he went and got a mortgage from the bank where he had his accounts. Mostly I understand from him, he did that to open the doors so that other African Americans could get mortgages. 'Cause he had been saving so long for his life that he could have bought the house straight out if he wanted to, and ultimately did, when the banker kind of said, "oh well you were late with a payment and he said will you look at the accounts I have with your bank?" and the guy did and he said, "will you transfer some money and pay this mortgage off?" 'Cause ya know, this nonsense, cause, he felt it was total nonsense to be aggravated that way. And then when I came along as his first natural child I went to school and the kids I guess were told there was going to be a black kid in their class and I didn't particularly stand out in a way that would be meaningful to another kindergartener and so they apparently went home and said well no we didn't see one. So then they came back with my name and then said are you colored or are you white and so when I said I was colored they started calling me nigger. And I could tell even though I didn't know about that word, I could tell that it was negative and that they weren’t playing with me. So I believe the story is that I came home and told my mother since they couldn't figure out if I was colored or white I was going to tell them I was a medi. And I don't know if I ever did that but that's how I felt. There was always this exclusion, and since I was the only medi or colored kid or whatever in the school there was always that cloud saying that maybe you're not quite the same as everybody else. And that there is something Page 3 �wrong with you. And then by the time I hit Junior High, we didn't have middle schools then, we had a Junior High which was a newfangled idea, and , then , I, then I had ultimately become part of the fabric of the elementary school. And was invited to birthday parties and what not, and that was alright, but then when they started having parties where they would invite boys I was all the sudden no longer welcome. And so the whole group of friends that I had known before just plain dropped me. Period. Ya know, end of story. And so I was able to make new friends and these were the girls that were not interacting with boys and so forth and they were wonderful friends, but it was just the fact there was this immediate shift, just, ya know, for no apparent reason. That that was kind of uncomfortable and then ya know I'd come home and my parents would begin to explain to me what was going on. And then we did, momma did have us going to an Episcopal church that was a historically African American church and that was on the other side of town. But it was hard to be hooked in to the group of kids that went to that church because most everybody went to school across town. And I didn't know anybody and I was kind of shy and so from what I was told, or I figured it out and had it confirmed by some of my classmates when I got to college at Western, that they all decided that because I was shy and quiet that I was stuck up because not only was I an African American living outside the normal neighborhood ghetto, whatever you want to call it, where most of the black people lived at the time. They decided since I was the daughter of a physician that I must be stuck up. And I wasn't, but I was just feeling out of place, I didn't seem to fit anywhere, and it was a pretty bleak kind of experience. GOOTE: Did that continue through high school? CLAYTOR: Oh yeah. GOOTE: So was it any different when you went to Western? CLAYTOR: Yeah it was because there wasn't as much, I mean; Western didn't just have folks from Grand Rapids. I was able to go ahead and just be me. And I did join a predominately African American sorority because, just, ya know, just to make it clear that my personal orientation was on target, because now with your generation kids who, young people who come up with .. Various complexions and looking different can easily discuss both sides of their family "well I've got a white mom I've got a black dad," but for us in my age group the mixing of races so to speak, if you want to call it that was involuntary. My father's parents were slaves. And the...matralinical line was often ... you know... abused by the masters and bore children. Ya know because no matter if you want to go in to the Sally Hemmings sort of mentality and think of that as being a love affair of some sort, the female didn’t have any choice in it particularly. If she was chosen by the master there might have been some benefits to it, there might not, but it was not an equal kind of relationship. And so all of us up until...maybe...the generation after me was kind of ashamed of this history. , just didn't want to talk about it and my mother decided that I should have an opportunity to read some books and learn about the caste and class system that developed in the African American community after slavery was ended. And what happened with the delineation among the people who had been, more closely aligned with the master of the house, or of the plantation or of the farm or whatever it was. Because often times it was the progeny of those relationships that were treated with greater deference or at least those folks had a better opportunity to see how the white folks did things and survive. 'Cause the system in actual slavery was when the people were first brought over from Africa they were separated from any of the people of their tribes or anything so you did not have the cultural cohesion that other immigrant groups get when they come. They come and they set up their churches, their this's thats and the others and there is a certain cultural bond. But if you are deliberated separated from people that speak your same languages and have your same cultural practices, it gets diluted and then the culture that developed among the slaves in general Page 4 �was something that they had to cobble together from what little they could remember from before. And then it would be from a lot of different regions and so it wasn't... it was all new. And there was no way of saying, then for those that were products of these illicit relationships, there was no way to say, "well I can trace my history back through, on my momma's side it was this and on my father's side it was that." Because the father’s side was just rendered to being something you couldn't claim. Although in the South there is a funny way people do sort of know and claim some of it. But in terms of inheritance and that sort of thing. No GOOTE: So just for dates, when did you start college? CLAYTOR: 1965 GOOTE: Okay and when, your dad started his practice here, where did he come from? He moved to Western Michigan from? CLAYTOR: Roanoke, VA GOOTE: When was that approximately? CLAYTOR: Early 30's GOOTE: And your mother? CLAYTOR: She came in the early 40's (She’s eating lunch) CLAYTOR: Yeah, my father grew up on a farm... that his father had established after he was emancipated, and from my father tells me, is that granddad left the plantation and did not look back. Did not want 40 acres or a mule or anything else from the plantation owner. Now arguable, he looked just, the familiar relationship, resemblance is what I'm looking for not relationship, resemblance, was very strong. You could almost not from appearance tell the difference between legitimate and illegitimate children. But at any rate Grandpa, according to Daddy was just was sick of it all and he went and established a prosperous farm. In Floyd County VA which is outside Roanoke somewhere. I haven't looked carefully at the map to get a sense of that. But, and, I do believe it is still in family hands and he and my Grandma Judith, after who I'm named, set up this farm and had 13 kids. And I believe I am the second to the last of 50, I know I'm the second to the last, but I think there were 56 of us in the generation. And my father was the youngest of 13 children and didn’t start producing anybody until he was 50 which are how I get back to having my actual grandparents being slaves. Because they were pretty old when daddy was born, and he was pretty old when he started produced children of his own. So most people my age would not be able to say that their grandparents were, had been slaves. GOOTE: And what was your dad’s full name? CLAYTOR: Robert Claytor. Robert W. He didn't like to use his middle name so I ain't gonna do it. GOOTE: So he came here and started his practice, did he ever talk about how that was difficult? Did he know anybody here? He just chose Grand Rapids off the map and wanted to come up here? Page 5 �CLAYTOR: Something that like that. He went to Meherry Medical College and he had gone. Well he waited until 21 to leave the farm. Because he was the youngest he felt that he owed his parents, waiting until he was 21 to help on the farm before he left. But they only had a one room school that went only through the 8th grade. And actually the older ones would go to a normal school and learn how to teach, and then go back and teach in the one room school. And so that level of education was pretty solid, but it wasn't a high school education. So then he had to spend some time to earn some tuition, to go to a high school. But it was a boarding school since they didn't have a high school black people could go to in Floyd County so he went to Petersburg, Virginia where I think (I can't remember the current name because it has become a college) and got his high school done. He was in his early twenties by that time. Then he went onto the University of Pennsylvania to the Wharton school. He was going on along in that field. The professors there told him in order to succeed in business he would have to start passing as a white because there wouldn't be much of a future for him if he claimed his African American identity. He was taking no part in that nonsense so he completed his bachelors at Northwestern with a pre-med zoology major. At Northwestern they told him if he wanted to go to medical school there he could as long as he didn't touch anybody. He couldn't even watch a white woman give birth, and could only watch an African American woman give birth, but he couldn't touch anybody. And he didn't think that was such a fine was to learn to be a physician. So he went to Meherry Medical College which was one of the historical African American medical colleges. And he graduated from there and while he was at Northwestern he met some wealthy person from Evanston who offered him a job and he went up to North Port Point outside of Traverse City to work during this summer. She just paid him what was tuition. From what he tells me, he had a brother who had become a pharmacist, his next oldest brother because there was one in between him and that brother who had died after World War I, I think he was exposed to nerve gas or something. At any rate, he had approached his brother and said why don't we go to medical school together? My uncle said "okay, fine," but I think, as I recall, I don't keep these dates in my head, but that was around the depression. My father, in his frugle ways, had socked away under his mattress or something so he had tuition to go to the medical school for his brother. What I understand from my father, this lady had decided she was going to pay for tuition for the both of them to go to medical school because my uncle was already married I believe when the notion of going to medical school had occurred. And others of his brothers had gone to Meherry I think one had become a Physician and one a dentist so there was a family tradition there. SO they finished medical school and I think ended up back in Chicago doing a residency. So daddy had a sense of Michigan from being up north with his family that he had worked for. There seemed to be a need for an African American physician here and one in Saginaw. Apparently there was a practice (in Saginaw) my uncle could buy or just ask, and since he had a family, my daddy said okay you go there here and I'll stay in Grand Rapids since there where there needs to be more ground work done, because I can do that. So that's how he ended up here. So he was doing whatever he was doing, living in this rooming house and so forth. And my mom, who was a widow, she had gone to the University from Minnesota. She had graduated from there and was there with her high school or childhood sweet-heart and so it was almost a foregone conclusion that they were going to marry. But ma had promised her parents that she would wait until she finished college. Her mother pushed her to wait a year after finishing college and go work some place. So mama went to work some place, and it took her 6 months to learn the job, and to leave after only 6 months of doing, she didn't like that idea. And her fiancé I guess we called him was getting annoyed for keepin coming up with these excuses, because from what I gather my grandma, my mother's mother wanted my mother not to get married at all but to do things and just get famous with her maiden name. So mama says she went off to New York where her sisters were living, and she was working in Trenton. So she secretly married her beloved and went back to work, but the secret marriage made him happier that she was making the commitment and was trying to assuage (?) her mother's notions of what to do. And so after she finished the second year working at the job with the YWCA in Page 6 �Trenton she married her beloved. He was working in Kansas City as a journalist working on the African American Newspaper in Kansas City. I believe his brother was also out there doing something but I can't get all those particulars together. But at any rate, they were out there and setting up their life, and had a little baby boy, my brother Roger. Shortly after Roger was born, his father Earl got Tuberculosis, and was in a Sanitari. And so mama had to become the principle bread-winner. This was also the depression times so it was a complicated situation and Grandma had to move in to help take care of Roger while mama worked. And then, Earl got out of the sanitari and was working at home, but could only work part-time. They had, I think, disabled one of his lungs. I don't believe it was removed but it didn't work. He was weak and couldn't work full time. Mama ultimately took a job after consulting with the whole family including her husband, and her mother and her brother in law and my God-mother, ya know a confab (?). I found all this out from my God-Mother. And they agreed that Mama should take a job with the national YWCA but it would require a lot of traveling and it was actually based in New York City. And so her husband was still recuperating in Kansas City with her mother and my brother, I mean her mother taking care of both Earl and my brother. while Mama was traveling around a lot and while she was traveling she was doing interracial studies of YWCA's throughout the country. And she came to Grand Rapids to make a speech on said topic, and ran in to one bachelor physician named Claytor. And she had been in Roanoke, where lots of his relatives were living. And in the South, black people couldn't stay in hotels. So mama, the YWCA arranged for them, the black women who were traveling, to stay with families that had space. And my Uncle John, who was also a physician, had space in his house. He had a huge, well, huge by Mamas and Daddy's standards, he had 8 children. And some of them were already grown and gone and already physicians and what not, and so when Mama met Daddy and he looked just like his brother, she said, "Oh, are you one of Dr. Claytor's sons form Roanoke?" And Daddy said, "No, I'm his brother." But he was intrigued she knew the Roanoke people so he invited her out to dinner. And, as I gather, the rest is history. And so they developed a communication and then they developed a relationship, and they settled here. And so then Daddy came and bought this house for us to live in. And the neighbors were not pleased when he bought it. HE tells me the guy who owned it, when he found out Daddy was black; he tried to buy it back. And the neighbors, some of them, were not happy. And then there were a few neighbors who said, "Let's wait a bit, and give 'em a chance and see if they are okay." And it's kind of funny when you figure that clearly my parents, I believe, were the only people in the whole neighborhood who had a college education. Duh. But somehow they were going to drop the property values. It was sort of dopey. But there it was. And so that’s that kind of ancient history. GOOTE: Did your parents ever tell you any particular stories of like, them being discriminated against besides the housing? Did any stories stick out in your childhood? CLAYTOR: Oh I don’t know. They are so common as part of the fabric of... GOOTE: Or for you for that instance, growing up does anything stick out? CLAYTOR: Well, there was one thing that did stick out, does stick out. , kind of, profoundly I guess. Is that I was, yah know I made the best of my days in high school ya know and fashioned a pretty comfortable situation. And I sang in the choir at Creston high school and had lots, some friends from the choir and one thing and another. I had a pretty happy existence and I was a member of the NAACP Youth Council. And that was mostly black kids. And yet one of the guys from Creston decided to join it. And he was in the class ahead and was sort of a big man on campus kind of guy and was sort of interested in a lot of different things. We were going to have a dance, and so he invited me to go to the dance. And I was kind of dbfounded because no one asked me on a date for anything given this odd situation. And there was like one other African American in that guy’s class, which was the class ahead of me, and he was the son Page 7 �of friends of the family, but his parents were often trying to push him to be involved with me which sort of drove him away. When we could have banded together and just survived high school together for the social stuff it sometimes didn't happen. I did go out with him a couple of different times. At any rate, for this thing this guy invited me, and oh I believe the day or so before the event was supposed to happen, he came to the door, he came in, I don't even think he sat down, but he told me that his mother didn’t want him to take me to this dance. You know, because it was going to be interracial dating. And I was smart enough at the time, when he invited me, to know he wasn't really trying to push for me being his girlfriend but it was to go to the dance with someone he'd seen or heard of before. But still for me it was like, a date. Ya know. My god, someone actually asked me on a date. Ya know, and so it was really disappointing. And my family had been worried about something like this happening. Anyway and so when it came time for the dance, we decided that I was still going to go. And my Father actually dressed up and escorted me in to the, ya know, it was at some hotel downtown. And so he escorted me up the elevator and in to the space where the dance was held. Not that he was going to stay and be a chaperone but he didn't want me to feel like I had to stroll in there all by myself. And then there were some other girls there who didn’t have dates. But going from the position of thinking I was going to have a date to not having one that really was hurtful. And there were other things that were hurtful but just not as quite as in your face. GOOTE: So would you say it was more of the insidious backhanded things versus an outright comment or nothing ever got violent? CLAYTOR: No, it wasn't violence or anything like that. It was more of the insidious type stuff. Where people, were all the sudden I would be ostracized from something where I had been involved before. And when it got to be the boy girl thing, I was no longer part of that group of people or it was it was just this quiet kind of ostracism and it was ostracism on both sides of the fence so to speak because I didn't have that much interest coming from the black community either. I was just kind of left out there in the wind. And I had learned from the stuff Mama had me reading and so forth about sociology and what not and I began to understand why it happened. But I couldn't really do much until I got to college and was able to begin to function outside of that whole... GOOTE: Would you say that it would have been the same if West Michigan didn't have that predominant religious, Dutch aspect? Do you think that was a big part of it or... CLAYTOR: It was part of it, but not, it was more a product of the times. , 'cause the religious stuff just has made this community more conservative. And kind of, for a long time, adhering to some of the social norms that were more common in that community. But that interracial stuff wasn't common anywhere. GOOTE: Would you say there was a big difference from when you left to go to Washington D.C. and came back 30 years later? CLAYTOR: Yup, I mean yeah, there was a difference to a certain extent. And yet to another extent no. Because this whole business about the couples thing. , I came back and started going back to the same church I'd gone to as a kid. And people I'd known and stuff would never say, "well, we're having an open house at Christmas time, come." It just wasn't something that happened. And this had been common in D.C. among the people I knew from church. We became kind of a community that did things socially and one thing and anything and it didn't require that we had a mate in order to do the things. And there would be gatherings and everyone would sit down and running their mouths about whatever and, it was just an easier interplay among people but in Grand Rapids with all this conversation about healing Page 8 �racism and one thing and another. I wasn't seeing terribly much of a difference in that kind of interaction from when I was a kid. Going around and talking about race relations. 'Cause I did set up a group of teenagers that were doing this because my parents were prominent in the community and as the Civil Rights Movement, the Modern Civil Rights Movement was taking hold. People were trying to explore the feelings of prejudice and segregation and this that and the other. And so there was group called the Panel of Americans that adults were doing where they would go around and have representatives of racial and ethnic groups. And so there might be a Jew, and a Catholic, and an African American, and a WASP. Ya know, a group. So I rbled around and found my friends who were of various and sundry backgrounds and said, "ok" 'cause there were people that were asking me to do it, go around and talk about what it was like to be black and I'd be sitting up in some classroom someplace talking to a bunch of folks and that just began to feel stupid. And so we set up a Panel of Americans and we were doing the same things the adults were doing. And we actually got one of the leaders of that group there was a priest in town, a Roman Catholic priest who was really can't...****PHONE RINGS*** Excuse me. (She asked for the tape recorder to be turned off. I was coughing so I went to get a drink and paused the recording.) GOOTE: Okay and we are going again. CLAYTOR: Okay, at any rate. We had a meeting of the people that got recruited to be in this group. And, and we would go around and talk about ya know, how much the same we were. Rather than difference in terms of aspirations and one thing or anything. And it didn't matter whether we were Jewish or Christian or Black or White or anything. And that was pretty interesting but I find when I came back these 30 or 40 years later, 'cause you have to figure that I was in college for a while and all that but when I'm coming back and they are having all these institutes for healing racism and what not I'm finding that in the community there is still a lot of this separation. That people aren't just comfortably socializing with each other. And at some point I've talked with younger people who are coming in to the community and they find some of that same kind of stuff going on. I have a feeling now with the increased influx of people to be working at Van Andel Institute and going to the Medical College and Grand Valley's programs growing up and one thing and another that some of this maybe will get to be less so, but I was just kind of amazed that the community was having all of these very out in your face community efforts to talk about eliminating racism and it didn't look like much progress had been made. And yeah, so I noticed, I went into nursing as a second career in Washington and I came back here and I had opportunities to look at the nursing field and I wasn't seeing any African Americans in leadership roles in nursing here in Grand Rapids. And some of the other kinds of professions, ya know, I wasn't seeing that kind of advancement that would indicate things were equalizing out in the way it should. GOOTE: You did see those things in Washington D.C.? CLAYTOR: Yeah, to a greater extent. Of course, DC by itself for a while was called the Chocolate City. Ya know, there were more black people there and there were a lot of educated black people. Now what happened here is a lot of the families ya know who produced kids who went on to higher education the kids just didn't come back here to settle. And I think that's been the case with a lot of families no matter what their ethnicity is. And then you have kind of the retention of some of those more tradition old ways of doing things among any part of the community that returns because I've noticed, I am just a rare thing as an African American adult to come back to Grand Rapids after being gone as long as I've been gone. Obviously there have been a few but it is not a large number. And, I threw a conniption one Page 9 �time, not long ago like five years ago. Mom died in May of 2005, and I had a car accident on Christmas day of 2005. And in January we discovered that I had a slow brain bleed as a result of that accident and so had to have brain surgery and haven't been back to work in other than volunteer kinds of things since. And so just before Mom died I was still on the advisory committee for the health department. And we had a meeting and the rate of infant mortality in Grand Rapids among African Americans at that particular point in time was the second highest in the state. Wayne County was even better than Kent. Oakland County was the highest and Kent was the second highest for infant mortality among African Americans. And so the people were sitting up in this meeting saying, "Oh my goodness, what is this all about?" and they were having reports from like four different program groups that were allegedly working on this problem. And as I looked around this room, when somebody said, "How can this be, we have such fine medical facilities here," and I looked around the room and I said, "Ya know, this a really bizarre situation because I don't talk about my mother often but 60 years ago when she came here to Grand Rapids she would sit on committees and she would be the only African American on the committee. And they were working on problems related to poor health outcomes or poor outcomes of any variety among African Americans and I'm sitting in this room today, her daughter, and the picture is still the same. I am the only African American in the room. And you’re having presentations from four groups. That are supposed to be working on this topic with infant mortality among African Americans and you don't have one African American professional working in those programs. That’s what's wrong." And they looked at me like "Oh my goodness, wants this all about." Because I hadn't been all that vocal. Furthermore they didn't know who I was talking about when I talked about my mother. Well, Mama died before the next meeting and because she was fairly prominent in the community her obit was on the front page of the Press. Which kind of blew me away myself but at any rate it was there. So they had an opportunity to know who I was talking about and what this was all about and so when I went back to the next meeting the woman who was administrating the Health Department told me she they had been granted another chunk of money to work on this problem and I said, "how is this money being administered?" And the woman went and told me that the same committee who had been working on the Healthy Kent 2010 Initiatives would be the same committee that would be working on this again. I said, "Are you telling me, the committee that had those poor outcomes, is going to be doing, I said this doesn't make any sense." And by this point everyone shut up and said, "What do you recommend?" And I said, "Maybe some focus groups that are in the African American community to discuss the problem and preferably being led by other African Americans. And so you can get some real feedback. And that you would have the Advisory Committee meeting at such a time that people from the community can attend if they are not are not health care professionals who can get off from work in the middle of the day to attend a meeting." Duh, I mean I sat on these committees in Washington and we had enough sense to have them in the evening when people could come. I could not believe it. And I sat there and kind of said this that and the other and it was like I speaking some new language. And I find when I talk about coming back here I find there is just a lot of this kind of thing where people think that oh well we'll just think of this program and do it and never ask the people who are to be served what might work." And that is part of what is a throwback to the Reformed community the CRC in particular. Because from what I gather, the missionary efforts on their part, and I've gathered this even from members of that group, is that, a lot of it is to go out and spread the word and invite people to come in and be just like them. But not to go out and work with incorporating people, respecting where their coming from. And so we'll go out and do something for you, and so a lot of the social outreach initiatives whether or not they have been undertaken specifically by the CRC or whether they are undertaken by somebody else. That way of doing things has become more of a common feature here in Grand Rapids and West Michigan than it seems to be in other areas. So you don't find as many peoples who have been in Grand Rapids forever that get to the planning tables for stuff. And so you have the people saying, "Oh well you should do something for my group." And they hear about getting grant money from some place. But Page 10 �nobody has ever kind of said, "Well when you get grant money, you have to account for it." And it's not just you get a check. I mean, there has just been this disconnect for how things work. So you have things kind of going belly up when they don’t' need to be going belly up. But it's just because the way of doing things has gone along a different path. And so it doesn't occur to people to say, "Well if we are going to be working with this community and in this community. And at this point there are professionals who are within the communities. Why don't we work with this group of people and do a program?" As opposed to just thinking of it on our own and it may not be hitting the particular spot, yeah it's just nuts. So at any rate yes, I mentioned that coming back this is why I think I find myself being frustrated because there is some stuff that is just, haven't you quite figured this out yet. And I'd find myself being misunderstood when I'd try and speak about how it might have been done somewhere else. And there are a lot of people I've learned who've come to Grand Rapids thinking that they've had a nice opportunity to do something and they leave. And go back to whenever they came from because they don't want to be bothered with it. And I can see why. And I talk with people the people who I get to know who are newer to Grand Rapids, African Americans who are newer to Grand Rapids and they will kind of look at it and say, "What is this?" It's just very peculiar. GOOTE: To finish up, you said your mom; you mentioned on the phone there was even a scholarship named after here and that she was involved a lot. But what sort of things were your parents involved in? Obviously she served on committees. Did she still work for the YMCA? CLAYTOR: YWCA. W's are different than M's. Woman as opposed to men. They, when she got here, after she had been doing this interracial study for the national YWCA after she married, they both sat down and he ran the numbers and said, "if you go back to work it really won't impact the family that much, because what you earn.." it was going to put him up in another tax bracket, but not enough into it to make much of a difference. So he encouraged her to pursue some very intense volunteer stuff. Such that she went to China for a world YWCA council meeting when I was 6 months old. And my Grandma took care of me but then after Grandma died he made sure there was household help and what not to make sure she could do the traveling she needed to do for the national YWCA efforts that she was involved in. And a lot of those were involved in equal rights and freedom and dignity for all people. And that was what she did. And daddy had been involved in the community chest, and community services here in Grand Rapids as a volunteer. And he help to found the Grand Rapids Chapter of the Urban League along with an Episcopal Bishop which was kind of interesting because daddy was a Baptist at the time. But he did a lot of community outreach work and what he decided to do, well when he and Mom got married, he put her in charge of all the family outreach volunteer stuff and he would pull back on doing that so he could spend his spare time with the family. And so as a family unit, the whole effort could be put forward. And so his efforts were often putting forward, treating people with equality and dignity. And in his practice it was always that way. And to make sure that people of all ethnic persuasions had equal access to jobs and things. And mom's efforts involved in the community, she was one of the people who set up the Han Relations Commission in Grand Rapids, it was the forerunner of the equal employment activities. There was just a lot she was involved with. When I was young there were very few if any African American teachers in the school system. And Mom pushed very hard for that to be changed. You would have African American people in the community who had been to college and had teacher certification and they wouldn't be hired in the system. They had to be out in retail establishments and doing things that were not compatible with the educational background they had, and that was real stupid, and mom did a lot of stuff about those kinds of things and sorts of local community stuff she did. And so she had an impact in a strong way. And I kind of was eh, a little astonished, not astonished but realized that they hadn't gone back enough in History because when they were opening up the new Han Services Building for the county they went to have a profile of Mama Page 11 �in the building and I tried to tell them, but no one asked me at the right time, that it would probably be more appropriate to have my father in that area because of the kinds of things he did with his medical practice. Ya know, he saw just an enormous number of patients without charging them, or would charge them way lower fees just because of what people could afford. And he did his thing so quietly that people didn’t know, the people who knew him knew, and they had a great deal of respect for him. And he was just a real significant figure, particularly in the African American community for just the kinds of things that he did to push for the dignity and uplifting of everybody. But because Mom ended up having the more public role she got a lot of attention and she was inducted in the Michigan Woman's Hall of Fame and all manner of things. And she had every right to be there but it was very much a team effort with them in terms of how they viewed their role in the community. (She points out a photo of her mother receiving the honor for the naming of the scholarship at GVSU) END OF INTERVIEW Page 12 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/75933085f74177ee918736353cb6ebaf.mp3 6db5c85a76b6cfc9ffbfe8ea8cde07c1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Claytor_Judith Title A name given to the resource Judith Claytor audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Claytor, Judith Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Goote, Paige Description An account of the resource Judith Claytor was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan. She graduated from Western Michigan University with a degree in sociology/social work. She discusses the racial and religious differences between living in Grand Rapids and Washington D.C. and attending Western Michigan University. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Religious discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2011-11-11 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d5a1e3187ee672cd9df8570c647a4cbf.pdf ef83a9f06ac9d6f96a9c8c99a1bce1ac PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Joseph Cospito Interviewers: Justin Francis Cospito Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/9/2012 Biography and Description Joseph Cospito likes working on his house, playing with his children, being a stay at home dad, and listening to books on audio tape. He is a retired science professor who is married to an episcopal priest. He discusses growing up in the fifties in Bartonville, Illinois. Transcript JFC: My name is Justin Cospito and I am interviewing my father Joseph Cospito at three PM on March ninth and we are in our home of Northville Michigan and dad would you like to spell out your name? JAC: Sure, last name is c-o-s-p-i-t-o JFC: So tell us a little bit about your background, where’d you grow up? JAC: Well I was born in New Jersey, but I grew up in the Midwest, a little town called Bartonville, outside of Peoria, Illinois. It was an old coal mining town and we were the only Catholic family that moved into that area. We moved into an old coal miner’s house that didn’t have water, electricity, and an old outhouse out back. JFC: Alright, well did you have any siblings? JAC: Yea I had three siblings. I had two sisters and one brother. My brother John was the youngest and I was the oldest. JFC: And do you wanna just explain what your childhood life went through, and through high school? JAC: Yea it was challenging to live in a small town where everybody knew your business. I remember we had a phone line that had like five people on it and there was Mrs. McGullicutty would listen to everybody’s conversations. She would just be quiet. She knew when to get on the phone cause all the phones would ring. If a call was coming into that line and people were always saying “get off the phone get off the phone” but she’d listen quietly and you could hear her. That’s what a small community’s like. It was the fifties so just remember grade school as being like a prison it was a big old building, dark. Page 1 �Teachers seemed like they were ancient and they were mean. Back then you could get paddled or they could break yard sticks across your back, not the girls just the boys. And sometimes you just had to break some rules to have some kind of a life in that institution and I choose to break more rules than I probably should have. After grade school in Bartonville, Bartonville grade school I was sent to a catholic school and went to a catholic high school. All boys school, I liked that, I enjoyed that much much more cause I was heavy into athletics and I was a very religious person and actually was invited to join to enter into a pre-seminary they called it, to finish up high school, but I didn’t do that. My father blocked that idea. JFC: Well can you tell us a little bit just about your interpersonal relationships with your father and your siblings. JAC: Sure I was the oldest so I saw my duty to take care of and look after the children. My father, your grandfather was a veteran of world war two. He was in the army before World war two started. He was in Greenland and he told me stories about German bombers coming over and trying to bomb the base and that was before war was declared to the US then he was brought back to the states. He was a medic, he was trained to work with donkeys and then shipped around the world to India and then he was flown into southern China over the Himalayan Mountains with these donkeys and for two years he ran up and down hills being chased by the Japanese. He was with the Chang hi shek army they were, he showed me some pictures. They were absolutely brutal to their own people and he said they never stood and fought against the Japanese. He was with a small medical unit that was attached to the Chinese to care for their wounded and sick. Yea our relationship was not very good, with my father. He was. He had his own post-traumatic stress coming back from the war. His sister said he didn’t come back the same. He was a violent man, explosive, drank a lot. Later found out he was an alcoholic. He gambled a lot we grew up in poverty even though he had a decent job at Caterpillar Tractor Company. Where everybody in my family, I mean all the men in my family worked, At least at some point in their lives for Caterpillar Tractor Company. Oh we didn’t have the money that our neighbors had and other people at our school had and that was very difficult and shameful to live that way. That and his temper and his violence. So I tried to shelter my siblings as much as possible from his wrath taking his, taking his violence physically, but emotionally it was very, very difficult. I hated him for almost my entire life. And still to this day I can’t be at peace with it. My mother was weak, she just, when she tried to stand up to him he just over powered her and I saw him hit her once. Hmm she was afraid of him and she was afraid of what he would do to her parents who lived in the same town. He had threatened to hurt them if she left him. Oh that, it was a hard time. JFC: So why don’t you tell us what it was like growing up in the fifties and just continue on until you got into college and what you did in college. JAC: The fifties were certainly different than today’s world. It was actually a much more, it was a calmer life and not near as much drama and didn’t hear about all the violence that we have today. I think, I don’t know if it was less violence but I grew up without television up until high school and then it was just a black and white television. I would walk by this electronic store and I would look at some of the TV’s they had in the window and I remember watching “Hop Along Cassidy Show” and I started going Page 2 �there Saturday mornings at a certain time to watch some of the programs. But we would sit around at night and listen to the radio, especially ball games. Baseball was really big in our house, listening to it. There were kids would just hang out in high school, we would go to these hamburger or we called them tenderloin shops. They would make tenderloin or barbecue sandwiches and those were the hang outs on Friday and Saturday nights. Everybody would work on their cars, the guys would work on their cars on Saturdays, shine them all up, have a date, go out to the movies or something common there’d be groups. Then we’d go get something to eat, but we’d just drive around and around and around until we finally thought we found a cool spot to park and then we’d park and order. The waitresses were just, we called them car hops, they would roller skate out, take your order, put a tray on the side of your car, then roller skate back into the diner. They’d have your food and roller skate out with a tray full of food and drinks and then you would leave a tip for them, special on the tray. Some of our, they were women all young women, some of them were our friends, high school students. Music was real popular, we listened to a lot of music, but then it was forty five singles, and you’d get one good song on one side and you’d get some awful song on the back side that wasn’t very popular, but that’s the way they sold them. Back then you could go into record stores and you could ask for a record and you could go into a booth and listen to it to see if you wanted to buy it. Radio music stations were on all the time, whenever we were in our cars. The car was the single most important thing in our lives back in high school. It represented freedom, the area that I grew up in you would, it was surrounded by corn fields, going out for a drive on these gravel roads. We’d go to strip mines, which were mines, surface mining. They’d be filled up with water and we’d go swimming and it was very care free compared to today’s world. The classes were easy and it was just like grade school but just a little bit more difficult. But the teachers were laid back and everybody was kinda had their own rhythm and it wasn’t fast. Periodically we would have these air raid drills were we would all hide underneath our desk waiting for a nuclear bomb to drop, all the way through grade school and high school we’d be doing that and then you’d have tornado watch and if a tornado came by you’d have to go into the hall way away from glass, so it seems like we were always preparing for something. I remember helping my father build a bomb shelter down in the basement with sand bags. There was a period of time where everybody was building bomb shelters. The situation with the Soviet Union was very tense. I can remember in high school the news of the Talcon resolution where supposedly the Turner was attacked by north Vietnamese speed boats, later we found out in history that wasn’t true at all. But I remember the country gearing up for war and I remembering that all of us young men were senior year were just saying, “Yea” rooting the United States on “Yeah lets go over there, let’s make them pay.” I went on to college; it was a small number of friends. Most of the kids from that graduating class worked Keystone, Steel and Wire, Caterpillar, or local lumber yard or just local jobs or they’d go back and work on the family farm. They, they didn’t go off to college. And very very few women went off to college. They were supposed to just stay at home, get a job, and wait to be married. My parents and many parents back then wouldn’t put money into a girls education, because they figured she was just gonna get married, have babies, and start a family and her husband would take care of her. I remember Sputnik when that came out; going outside to watch it and the country had another wave of fear. I don’t know what of, but I think they were just afraid of the advanced technology of the Soviet Union. But I remember then the space race started. But more money was poured into the schools for science and math. There was a sudden interest in it and I rode that wave. I did very well in math and science and that’s what I majored in, in college and I got a scholarship that paid for my tuition. Page 3 �I had to get a part time job to pay for the rest of my room and board, but I also was able to get what they called “National Defense Loan.” They were education loans that they made available especially for science majors and I borrowed some money from that program. I was premedical, enjoyed the studies, but the war was heating up in 1966. A classmate of mine that we grew up as friends through grade school, through high school, and went off to college together, came into my dorm room late one evening and knocked on the door. I let him in, he was a bit drunk, and he said “let’s drop outta school and enlist before the war was over.” And it was just before exams so I said, “Good idea, okay and so we got, we drove into a train station and jumped on a train up to Chicago and enlisted, he enlisted into becoming a war officer flying helicopters, which made sense because he had dropped out of college that whole year and was spending the tuition money that his parents were giving him for flying lessons and he was just living in the dorm. They didn’t know… the school didn’t even know that he wasn’t registered for classes. Now I went to small college in southern Illinois, they called Eastern Illinois University, very beautiful area, very beautiful college and I liked it, but I felt like that the communists were killing Catholics, they were killing Christians and I had to go do something about that. So I enlisted into an army security agency, knowing I’d go into language training. That’s what they told me and indeed that’s what happened. Went off to basic training, didn’t see Gary for a long time, quite a few years. Had language training in North Vietnamese in Washington D.C. I was stationed at Arlington hall our buildings were at the south post of what’s Arlington Cemetery. And I’d go into town, D.C. every morning with a coat and tie and no military I.D. go into the basement of one of the large buildings on Connecticut Avenue and we’d start the day at nine o’clock for classes and only Vietnamese was spoken during the day, during class times. We’d have short break for lunch, where’d we go upstairs, go out somewhere get something to eat and come back down. And we were trained in vocabulary on conversational and on listening we had headphones, we’d have to listen to tapes. Try to translate them or at least get a gist of the conversation. We did that for, oh god, quite a few months until November and then I was pulled out and ordered to Vietnam and I remember I went by myself, the other class mates were scattered around. People were taking different languages at that time. There was a small group taking that dialect and I don’t know where the other guys went, but I wound up in Quan Trii. I remember getting off the airplane, I had a khaki uniform; I didn’t have my utilities then and just being hit by this massive hid heat and just all kinds of smells. Most distinguishing smell was diesel fuel burning, it was covering the field. Later found out that, that’s how, that was the sewage system emptying, emptying the trenches and then poor guys would have to stand there in diesel fuel. Oh that was sick. I turned over my orders, I was told I was gonna be listening to tapes that were collected from the Hociman trail and translating them, trying to distinguish between Chinese and different dialects of Vietnamese (JFC sneezes a couple times) but to my surprise I was signed to a platoon of south Vietnamese rangers and spent my time in Vietnam up in the mountains on the smaller areas of the Hociman trail JFC: Well do you wanna go into detail about what happened in Vietnam? JAC: Well I can just say being a very strong catholic boy to being hit with the immorality and the viciousness and just the insanity of war. It was very hard on me. It was very violent and it seemed senseless. And I went from a college student to being somebody that became nb and could kill other people. And it was a very fast transition. None of my training ever prepared me for that. And I was very Page 4 �isolated, I was with Vietnamese, there was an American officer and maybe a sergeant assigned to these ten man patrols. We’d go out for ten to twelve to fourteen days up in the mountains looking for the trails, looking for the North Vietnamese trails and setting up ambushes. And my task was to send up a, the Vietnamese would set up a long antenna for me on the side facing Lousts the plains and I’d do electronic intercept. That was basically my job, that and taking samples back of any ammunitions or rice or supplies to bring them back. JFC: Okay and how did your experience in Vietnam come to an end? And what was it like coming back? JAC: Yea... Well the world had certainly changed. JFC: Well how’d you come, what happened? JAC: We set up an ambush at night something we did every time we were out there, yea but this time it wasn’t just a bunch of young men and women pushing these heavily loaded bikes. They made these bicycles, the Chinese bicycles, they were real sturdy and they had petals but the petals were always strapped to the bike and there’d be hundreds of pounds saddled on to these bikes and these kids would just push this up and down the mountains. Not all the supplies were coming down through the plains down below which was being bombed all the time, but as the bombing got heavier they started pushing more supplies south through the mountains, through the jungle. Eh we set up an ambush, but we wound up tripping an ambush. They were regular North Vietnamese soldiers and they had RPG’s which you see on TV now you know the big head rocket. Well we’d never encountered them before they were anti-tank armor personal rockets not for infantry use, but they brought them down, they were very effective, they blew up the whole line we had. All they had to do was hit a tree. Hit some brush to set them off and then you just had, not just the metal shrapnel but you’d have just wood chips. Everything became a shrapnel. It blew up our whole line. a young guy from Wyoming was next to me and he just, he was eviscerated and everything was ripped out of him. I had a head wound and concussion and some wounding on my side, left side, but it was the concussion that I was just lost, I was just... I didn’t know where I was. I couldn’t see very well. Cause it’s just flashes of light then it’s dark then it’s flashes of light and I lost my shotgun, I was blown back quite a ways from where I was. And I remember just picking up... I can’t even remember his name now. Picking him up in a fireman’s carry and running out away down this kind of a hill area, gully. And stopping and found out he was dead and I just put him down and all I had left was my they called a K bar. Eh it’s a big knife. Bayonet. But that’s all I had. Wandering around and finally settling in under a tree and the greatest fear I had. I had two fears. One was being captured because they don’t keep prisoners up in the mountains unless you were a pilot or an officer. Nobody took prisoners there. You had no place to put them. So I didn’t want to be captured but the second fear I had and maybe that was the most and greatest fear was the tigers. Tigers always followed us. They knew that at some point they were gonna have a meal. And when they heard gun fire they would come running for dinner, it was like ringing the dinner bell. So they were there, I could hear them. And I must have stayed up all night, with my night out… knife out… wondering if I was gonna be eaten hehe. *Cough*. It was like living in a zoo, I mean there were just…the snakes were poisonous, h the ant bites would swell up. Leaches were everywhere, they weren’t just in the water, they were in the leaves, the trees, there was nothing comfortable about it. That’s where I got malaria. I Page 5 �just thought I had h an infection… I had chills… and most of the Vietnamese had it too, dysentery. h, we all had just a quarter, a small area of the map where the jp-off point was. They had different points where you were supposed to rendezvous if something were to happen. I had a compass, I found a trail that went down to the other side of the mountain range, I made it back. I was lucky to make it back. And there was, there was only five other people that were there and they were all wounded to some extent. And then we were able to…we were able to call in a pickup, but we had to hike another five or six miles, get down to a lower area, that was level enough, for the helicopters to come in. There wasn’t any way that we could rope up. Well, that’s how I h, how I wound up getting a ticket back home, not because of the severity of the wounds, but because of the concussion… my brain was just jumbled. I couldn’t speak or understand Vietnamese anymore, I couldn’t pick up the towns… it’s a tonal language. Every vowel has six tones that can be used, and any vowel within a word can change the meaning of the word. And just being a westerner was very hard to pick up on the language to begin with but after the head wound, h, it was impossible. I couldn’t make any sense of it. And when you’re in the field everyone is just yelling and cursing and everything come very fast… it’s not like learning Spanish listening to a slower conversation. Well I was of no use to them so they sent me back to be checked out at Walter Reed Army Hospital in D.C… and I did and they found out that I actually had malaria. That was… that was the worst of it, but they patched everything else up on me. The head wound now they had identified as tragic head injury, but back then it was just a head wound. Now I had headaches and I was confused for quite some time… I spent a year in and out of Walter Read. This was just being treated for the wounds and then for the h malaria but the malaria cause an autoimmune disease called black water fever where my immune system attacked my kidneys and I was losing my kidney function. In Walter Read I was put in a ward of guys that had renal problems, and there were actually quite a few malaria cases there. And Walter Reed had a long history of, of doing research on malaria. *yawn* yeah that was something to be in the hospital for such a long time. From that hospital I, I learned of Martin Luther King’s assassination, Bobby Kennedy’s assassination, the democratic convention that just went crazy… in Chicago. I was out on pass when that happened, I was at some guys house that I got to know cause I’d had, I wound up having a part time job that turned into a full time job as a bartender when I was out of the hospital. Which… I just couldn’t leave the area, cause I had to keep going back to the hospital. But they let me out longer and longer… but they wouldn’t cut me loose because obviously security wanted me back… hehe they had too much money invested in h… ability I no longer possessed. They claimed it was psychological, and they were just waiting for me to snap out of it which really never happened. I h, I remember a lieutenant, first lieutenant showing up at the clipboard, and just reaming me out; told me I needed to get back to my unit and that I had to sign all these papers that if I said anything to anybody about what I did even if I was in Vietnam, and anything I may have been doing or training I had received, I would end up at Fort Leavenworth making big rocks into small rocks. That was… I believed them… hehe cause they were the army, they could do anything…you could just disappear. See, my parents didn’t know I was in Vietnam. They had me write these letters, h, before I was shipped over, and they mailed them out periodically. And I never received any… well… I received a couple letters that were forwarded to me, but it was out of Arlington Hall, the mail had to be addressed to Arlington Hall. Arlington Hall was still the center of Army security in the States. That’s where all the spooks for the army work out of. Yup. I saw the democratic convention, I flew there, the next day after the first day of the rioting, and it was a police riot, I was there then standing in front of the hotel when a group of Afro- Page 6 �American kids had all these bottles and they started throwing them over the white middle class protesters at the police, and they were just laughing… they thought it was the greatest fun. And then they took off just as the police started charging, beating everybody up and throwing gas. They thought it was hilarious that all the white people were beating up the white people hehe. It was… it was… well I was still standing there, I was still for the war, I was still on active duty just standing there thinking, well, nothing is gonna happen to me. It was complete chaos… I was choking on gas and there was a phalanx of cops running my way and they were just beating everybody, they weren’t asking any questions. They were beating cameramen, h, so I kinda was standing there for a while thinking we could have a conversation but it became obvious that nobody was asking any questions… I took off running with everybody else. And there was a small group of us that split off, we didn’t go to the Lincoln Park, we ran over to the commuter trains, train tracks, and dropped down, I don’t know, it was like ten feet, I remember with this group just running down the tracks. What the heck am I doing this for, but I did it. And I was active; I went out every day for the rest of that week. I met Abby Hoffman, I met Alex Ginsburg, I met Tom Hayden, he was the only one wearing a white shirt and a skinny black tie. He was the only one that was really serious. h, these all became big names in some trials later, but Abby Hoffman was funny. I always quote the head of the Yippee movement, or one of the heads, which was funny because they had no heads, it was just pure energy. I remember being trained how to fall down and cover my nuts and my head when being beaten. And I actually ended up taking this seriously because I saw enough people being knocked around with nightsticks. I remember one day, Dick Gregory, the comedian, was there. And all these delegates from the convention showed up and there was gonna be a nice peaceful walk, south. Police had set it up, said just move away from the park, Lincoln Park, and walk south. They were gonna be on the streets. And so they had police cars in the front, clearing the way, so everyone was walking down the street, nice sunny day, Dick Gregory was just cracking jokes, I was up toward the front… listening to him. And we walked down a little further. And he said “well, we ought to get up on the sidewalk.” I said, “well, ok”. But when we started getting up on the sidewalk, we noticed that all the delegates had started disappearing, cause they wore a red ribbon to identify themselves as delegated on the floor. And Dick Gregory disappeared, just turned around and he was gone. You could see people were being hustled out of the crowd. So they took all the leadership, the delegates, and then there was just a crowd of people up on the sidewalk, like four abreast, going back about two miles for all I knew. And then the National Guard came in. They had the National Guard come in to take the streets all the way up. Or all the way towards the back of the line. And the National Guard running right in front, I was right in the front, blocking the front, with their rifles and gas masks on. I’m going “ohhh, this isn’t good.” And then the guys, the national guard troops got up on the trucks, standing on the hoods of the trucks, and they had these, well I thought they were flamethrowers, then I go “oh no, that’s CS gas.” We used that in Vietnam, ya know, and it was considered illegal, it’s a nerve gas, from the Geneva Convention. And that was it, I tried to get out, tried to burst out of this line and one of the guardsmen tried to, , butt me with his rifle and I flipped it around and hit him and butted him in the face and just took off. But I only got to a couple steps, and I got sprayed with the gas too, the stuff shots out like fifteen or twenty feet. And they sprayed the whole crowd. Then I remember running down the alley, , my eyes were going in different directions, I’d lost my mobility, I just got dizzy, and I dropped. I dropped down to the ground. Then I remember being hauled and thrown into a paddy wagon; it was filled with people, and the cops threw in a couple Page 7 �canisters of gas, closed it up, we were all… and I had been exposed to regular tear gas in the service. You have to go into a room and take off your mask and you gotta give your name and ID number and all this stuff it doesn’t take long for you to run out of air and you breathe it and you’re supposed to be in there for so long and it just burns and itches… burns your lungs. So… it was awful. I couldn’t believe they did that. Then I remember we came out at some parking structure, and I remember the wagon was going down, it was curving around going down, and we were in some parking structure, and it was all military, national guard, and police down there, and they were unloading these paddy wagons, and having everybody run out. But they had a little gauntlet of the police, with their sticks, and they were swinging, hitting everybody, as we ran out. Nobody read any rights haha, I remember, the Quakers kept saying “everybody tape a dime to your leg cause you get to make one phone call”. Well, we were in a parking structure, there was no phone, hahaha a dime wasn’t going to do you any good. So I was wounded on my left side where I got scars and this Chicago policeman just waylaid me and opened up my skin and rolled it back over my scalp. I was bleeding profusely and once again my head got knocked up, knocked around. And then we were put in a line and supposedly we were being processed and I’m bleeding like crazy but nobody helped. And I get up there and I show my military ID and I start cursing at them. I say, hahaha, I say “how did this happen to me? What’s going on?” It was like a goolaug(?). And I was very much for the war, you know, I was still in the service and I had just been on pass from Walter Read and I was gonna go back. And I called the digs now, the thug just looked up at me and said “get your ass on a plane out of here” and he threw the ID at me. God I had just gotten back from Vietnam, I was wounded, trying to heal, trying to understand what was going on in the country, and I was beaten and gassed and then told to get out of there, and I was from Illinois, and a Chicago cop is telling me to disappear. Well that pissed me off, so I went up, they had aid stations for the protestors, I got bandaged up, they just put tape to close the wound, they didn’t get sewed. And I stayed around. I met another group of Vietnam veterans that were there, and there was a group called “Vietnam Veterans Against the War”, and I still have one of the pins, and I joined. I joined. And from then on I became very active against the war, I became contentious of chapter counselor, oh what a time to be in the Midwest. When I went back to college at Bradley University, it had just looked like America had gone crazy. The Americans had been so pro the war, and if you were against the war, even if you were a veteran, you were communist. It was just surrealistic… moment where on college campuses, part of the citizenry didn’t like you as a veteran cause you went to an immoral war, and then you have all these American Legionnaires and World War Two veterans that just hated you because you were losing the war, and then demonstrating against it. For them it was like an act of treason. Nobody really liked you back then if you were a veteran. So… I just didn’t tell people I was a veteran anymore. Went on to graduate school, I didn’t tell anybody. I used my GI bill to go to college and then graduate school, but didn’t tell anybody I was a veteran. JFC: Ok, well m…how were your experiences at graduate school and what did you get a degree in? And after graduate school. JAC: Well, I wound up having, before I went to graduate school, I wound up having a kidney transplant; I had lost my kidneys from the malaria. I got a kidney from my father which wasn’t a good match but it kept me alive. I had been on renal dialysis for two years. I finished up undergraduate on a dialysis Page 8 �machine. They were just starting; it was a very crude technique back then. But after the transplant I felt better, and I started, h, well I was a pre-med major, I started in a MD, PhD program at CL University medical school, and wound up just getting the PhD, it was too hard to do both majors. God, once I got into clinicals it was just, my first rotation was obstetrics and this woman had a really hard birthing and it was just too much blood and screaming. I said “I’m out of here, I don’t need this.” So I went into medical research and got a PhD. I did research at the brain institute at UCLA and taught for three years. Then moved up to Seattle University and taught pre-med classes. I just had to get away from the pressure of doing research. I had a large research project that was funded, accepted and funded by NIH, and I was only about six months into it, when this whole Star Wars anti-missile defense theory was started by Regan, and Regan went in and stole all the money from NIH, he just took it. That was congress grant for biomedical research, he just took it. And he gave it over to the Star Wars program, and I had to stop my research program and I had to kill all my kittens and cats which was… well I was doing research on brain development. I remember just being so disgusted that I’d spent, not only going into the service, and it was really rejected by that service time, and then I suffer from it physically and emotionally. And I spend all this money and all these years of training to get to the point where I was just starting to be productive in my research, and once again, an idiot politician blocked me. It took all my research away; it took all my resources away. And I had to fire the veterinarian and the technician… I could have kept plugging along but I was just so furious, what’s the point? And I, h, I finished up my contract at UCLA and moved up to Seattle, Washington, taught undergraduate pre-med classes and I just loved it, it was a lot of fun. I didn’t have the pressure of a big university. JFC: Ok, well m, I guess we will keep going on to personal life. What happened and sort of what you did after, after your time being a professor. JAC: Yeah, well, *clears throat* I went back to an old colleague…I had a profound spiritual experience, I was with some Jesuits on the coast, I had this deep spiritual experience right in the middle of mass. I just got up and went out and was wondering in the woods somewhere on the Oregon coast… and my friend Andy Duffner, Jesuit Priest, who was a physicist, we got to know each other teaching at Seattle University came out and got me and said “It’s all gonna be ok, just rest”. I remember bubbling to myself “I’m not gonna be a priest, I’m not gonna be a priest” I entered the discernment program the Jesuits and I went in to get a Masters of Divinity. And I was just gonna enter the Bishop process when I met your mother on a backpacking trip, who happened to be an Episcopal priest, and still is. And she was cute… it’s just strange how that worked out too. We took this trip with two Catholic nuns… great women, up into the Canadian Cascades… up where the Rockies melt into some of that range, at a park called Cathedral Park. And it was high up in the range and you could stand up there, the upper part of the mountain, and you could see all the mountains in the Canadian Cascades going all the way down into the States. It was just beautiful. I brought my backpacking fishing fly rod and I had been fishing in the upper alpine lakes… there were little trout up there, and your mother would sit down with the book close to me and she would just watch me casting and then struck up a conversation. After a few days of that, of hiking, I would go fishing… we developed a relationship. I mean a social relationship. I went back down to the Oregon coast to get ready to the nunishipt(?). She would write me cards and letters. I would walk into town, pacific city, to look at them. I was looking forward to them. Then all of a sudden, Page 9 �they stopped. I’d walk in, there would be no mail and I just felt this great loneliness. So m, I went back to Seattle and we started dating. I put the Jesuits on hold, and they were fine by that, they really want you to know that this is what you want to do. And, jeez, after about a year, year and a half of dating we were engaged and we got married. And after two years you came along. That changed everything cause at that time I was the director of the “spiritual exercises of everyday life” which is a large retreat program throughout the Peugit Sound Area for the Jesuits. I was working as a layperson, and when Mom got pregnant with you I had to decide whether I was going to be Episcopalian or Roman Catholic. It was quite a shock to see a pregnant priest, for my generation. Your mom with her collar up on the alter rail being seven or eight months pregnant, it was just h… I had to make a decision. And so I entered into the Episcopal Church and that’s where you were raised, in that church, through your toddler years, until we moved down to Tacoma. So I taught part time and I was running this program and your mother and I raised you. JFC: Okay. This is the second half of the interview with Joseph Cospito, done on March 11, 2012, at 3:21 pm in our home of Northville, MI. and, I’m doing the interview. My name is Justin Cospito. , last thing we talked about was when I was born in Seattle, so let’s continue from there. JAC: *Cough+…the area that we live in in Seattle wasn’t very nice. But it was almost call the, would be called here in this area the inner city. It wasn’t very nice. We lived in a little valley, and your mother had bought a home. That was the original farm house in this valley. I spent a lot of time fixing it up, and did a lot of work. I had fixed up my house and I was living in... I kept it and rented it out to some friends. When I worked on your mother's house, and that's where you lived. ...we were making dilly beans. We liked to can together and late smer, and she was very, very pregnant. We were just waiting for the contractions to start when they called the water to break. And it did on this Labor Day weekend, so we went in, rushed mom into the hospital and they said oh no her contractions...she’s not ready yet. So then we left and we turned around and came right back. They admitted her, and she was in labor for 24 hours and was absolutely exhausted. She was 40 years old. It was pretty hard to get pregnant, and we just were so happy. I was there. And then the doctor called for an emergency C section. Your heart beat was slowing down, you got into some trouble, and your mother was just exhausted. So we went into the surgery room, and I’ve got pictures of the doctor make and incision and putting her left hand down on moms belly, and your butt popped out first. And I just pulled you out by your legs, and there you were. And, if I hadn’t been around the hospital so much I would have probably just dropped to the ground. And I thought it was just the most beautiful and interesting thing. And they cleaned you up and handed you to me, they finished working on your mother. And, you were unhappy, with quite a way to come into the world, being just dragged out immediately, but you were wrapped up and I held you, they had a little cap on you, and it was just an amazing event. Well, we got out, you...you, they said they did different tests and you were just fine, but you were hurt. And we didn’t realize how badly hurt you were. You were crying all the time. I’d stay up at night with you, holding you, and moving you until you fall asleep. I would just hold you and then try to get some sleep. And we would walk around the neighborhood late at night or 2, 3 in the morning to get you to go to sleep. That was the only time you slept, when there was movement, when you were being moved. Or I would put you in the car and drive all over for a good part of the night. I got tired, you mother had some complications to the surgery so Page 10 �she was in bed a long time. She got an infection. We worked part time, both your mother and I, and we took care of you part time. We were with you; sometimes I was with you all the time. We did things together, you and I had put a backpack on, and we hiked all over the place. We’d spend a good part of the day just hiking around. I got in good shape and you were happy. One thing you wouldn’t do was keep a hat on your head. I kept buying these hats; it took me awhile to figure out to safety pin it to a cord with your clothes. I would put it on and you would just take it off, and you would be angry. You didn’t want anything on your head, but I had to protect you from the sun. That part I remember, of going back a number of times looking for your hat. Those were good years. You’re a very exciting baby. We knew you were very bright, and eyes...your mother and I just went crazy about a bunch of things because your mother and I were so happy to have a baby being so old. We... [Laugh], our place was just filled with toys. But the one thing you played with that you loved was the Tupperware, and the pots and pans. So we had, so it was safe for you to take them out we had to put locks on all the doors except for that one, so you could take them out. When winter came, I bought this little play structure and put it together, they were usually outside but I had one room for you to play in, and I had all these Japanese big square pillows surrounding the play structure, so if you fell of you would just fall into a pillow. And you climbed on that oh… I guess, I’m not sure when you started walking; we’ve got in your baby book, but even before you were walking you would pull yourself up on it. And you identified with it very, very quick. And there was a little slide to it, so for a couple years that was your thing to goof around, crawl in and out of, and pull yourself up, go down the slide, sometimes you’d get up there and just let go and fall back on the pillows. We did many bus trips downtown with the science muse, to the zoo that was our favorite outings because it had big open areas where we could just run and you liked looking at the animals. And we'd stop and looking at the tiger. It was always scary, always scary for me. Well that was the life in Seattle, and then we moved to Coma, your mother was called to another church to be the director, called the Church of the Good Shepard. We found an older 1946 or 1942 house that was built by a very famous house builder in that area. It was all cedar, gold shake, and it was on two acres of land. That was not developed. It was full of brush, but we really liked it, I saw a lot of potential in it. but I’ve always done is to buy older houses and fix them up while I lived in them, and turn around and sell them and make a profit and I had to live free. And I did that for years in all the cities I lived in. so I bought the house the same way, wanting to fix it up. And I did over the years. Oh, we moved down in 1997. We left there in 2005, so that was 8 years. And 8 years I put a lot of hard work into it. I was still director of the, of the retreat for the spiritual exercises in everyday life. We had a training program, and did spiritual reaction, I saw quite a few people a week. And then I was a parent. Then, just because things got quiet, mom and I decided to adopt a sister. A Chinese sister, we went to china and we met [Lee-Joan?] And that was really a horrible, ugly, ugly American Time. We just felt so awful, Lee-Joan had lived with their biological mom for about a year, and she was left in a market, and then somebody found her and brought her to the police station. So she’s one year old and she’s in the orphanage system in china, which is really a very, not a very system. They put a couple kids per crib together; the poor babies don’t get much attention at all. But then she was in foster care and bonded to this other family, and they loved her. It was multi-generational, and they didn’t want to give her up. Of course we didn’t know all of this at the time. We were just wondering what happened to our baby because everyone else in the group had received their daughter, it was a couple days afterwards and we found out they, they went out to get her. And the foster mom had forced them, put them in a car and forced them to come to the Page 11 �hotel. I just received a knock on the door, and a baby was handed to me...it was Lee-Joan, and I hadn’t expected it that way. And the foster mom was just crying and crying. And we felt like the ugly American, who here are given a baby girl that was very, very happy. She wasn’t institutionalized, she was with a loving family and they wanted to adopt her, but the Chinese government wouldn’t let them. These foster parents still email us; I have a couple emails from them a couple times a year. And then we send pictures of Le Jone back to them. It was a year and half later when we went back and got Kaylee, your other sister... Now Kaylee, Kaylee was 18 months, and I forgot how old you were. And we...I went over with my sister, and mom stayed home to take care of you and Lee-Joan. First time we had left you we went to get Lee-Joan and left you with a couple and that really was very hard on you guys, and, the husband was. And especially trying to force you to eat food. I was not happy about that when we found this out...so we weren’t going to leave you with anybody this time. One of us was going to stay, and that was your mother. You and Lee-Joan were very, very close. She just ran to you the first time she saw you. And you just rolled around and were laughing and it was very, very warm and sweet. So Kaylee we picked up and we picked her up in a hall where all the other families had babies with 18 months old. I can tell that she was just different. That she were not like Lee-Joan, the sense that she wasn’t crying at all. The...the foster mother that she was with, the Chinese put them in foster care for...once they have match, they keep 'me with the foster mother for about 6 months before you come over and get all the paperwork...and finish the adoption. Then you stay in China for 2 weeks, just to acclimate. , that was very good. Kay was a character, she would just wave at people, shed just draw attention, they’d say she’s just so cute, and I’d draw attention cause were in a smaller town and there weren’t that many Americans. And most people in our party would leave the hotel, but Kaylee and I just went out all the time. This time I had her in a stroller 'cause I couldn’t carry her. On one trip we went to this Buddhist temple and she was on the bus and I was holding her. And she just started struggling to get away, she wanted to go outside and the bus was moving, and she just flipped forward and I threw out 2 vertebrae in my neck. It was so painful, I woke up the following morning, and my head was off to the side and couldn’t even stand up straight. Fortunately there as a chiropractor in our group and she kept putting it back and we flew the next day, flew out. It was a lot of pain and she was a handful. It was, long flight, like a 14 hour flight to come back to Seattle, but you met us with mom and Lee-Joan, as soon as we got off the gate and you guys just wrapped around Kaylee and holding her making her laugh and she was happy. She wasn’t happy on the trip over, but she was happy. And both of your sisters, cause the time is just the opposite. Both of your sisters for a month or so just didn’t sleep at night. They were awake. It took a while for them to get adjusted. Life was very good; it was a very nice place. You were going to a private school, and I had the girls, and worked on the house. I put a fence all the way around the property because I bought two donkeys at a school auction, thought it was a good idea at the time. But I put in a lot of work and a lot of money for those donkeys. Fenced in about an acre, big thick planks 'cause donkeys like to lean against the fence. And then I build ‘em a little barn. Around the house and our place there was a beautiful view, also we had 2 donkeys, we had chickens, what else did we have? Ducks, we had bunny rabbits, and a lot of slugs, about a herd of slugs. The only animal that would eat a slug was a duck. So we would laugh, you guys would just laugh watching duck trying to eat a giant slug, one of those banana slugs. Then we had little ducks running around, little chickens, little chicks running around. The chickens flew up in the tree. I had that sauna built, it was outside. It was built underneath these giant cedar trees. And the chickens went up in those trees, and those that couldn’t make it would Page 12 �not last into the season. The coyotes would get them. Then at night, we this big owl, and picked off a few of the chickens. One day, I remember hearing one of the chicks peeping really loud. And I kept looking around and couldn’t see him. And then I looked up and there was a crow flying with one of the chicks. And I chased after it, it went into the woods, and the woods were so thick I couldn’t follow it any further, but it was about a month after that that the chickens got even. A crow somehow got caught by the chickens, and the chickens killed it. All the chickens kept running in from all around the area, were pecking at it. And a large flock of crows starting coming. So there were the crows against the chickens, and the chickens won. Soon as the crow was more than dead, they just scratched and went back to their, the work of just eating bugs and laying eggs. That was a beautiful place. I just felt so peaceful there. We remodeled the kitchen; put a second floor on it. It got to be a huge project. I poured a lot of money into it. We were happy. Your aunt and uncle...uncle bonnie [Laughing] I mean Aunt Bonnie and Uncle Jim were close by and we had those two beaches just down the hill we could go to. There was a fishing pier; we had friends throughout the neighborhood. I remember all the kids would come by our little farm and just look at the animals and just watch them. In the morning some of the older people went for walks and would always bring carrots around for the donkeys, or apples. What do you remember the place? JFC: Just there was a lot of property. That just liked walking around. JAC: mm...yup. We had woods, we had pasture, had that big hill behind us. We made friends with our neighbors, Sam and Martha, and their daughter. Our girls got close to them. Sarah, Lee-Joan, and Kaylee just hung out all the time. They’d play in that hill between our two houses. Now they’re still close, they moved to Toronto and we still see each other, at least 3 or 4 times a year. And the girls are always talking on the phone, and now on the computer they do Skype. ... JFC: Well, I mean after that we moved to Michigan and we ... JAC: yup, we moved to Michigan. Your mother got a parish, it was, for me it was hard breaking because it was hard, I thought that was the house we were going to retire in. I poured so much of myself into it. Building a barn, a shed, a sauna, putting all the fences in. But, it seemed like it was time to go, so we moved to Michigan, were your mom’s the priest director at Saint John’s Church. And she’s pretty happy. She...she loves her work. You guys seemed to adjust pretty quick... you had the hardest time. It was middle school. You were starting 7th grade. You had an awful experience in 6th grade there at browns point. [Cough...] we never realized actually how horrible it was and ma was just tied up in her work so much, and I was tied up trying to save the Seabury school from going under financially. We just didn’t pick up on the...what was happening to you. You changed dramatically. JFC: well that’s alright. . Well, is there anything that , that you want to touch on. I don’t think...what...what ah, talk about, well you said you wanted to say some more about Bartonville. I don’t think I ever covered up what year you were born JAC: Oh yeah, I was born in 1946. Your grandpa was in china for a couple years and earned the point system. He was able to leave the theatre before the war was winding down. But they hadn’t dropped Page 13 �the bomb on japan at that time. But Germany, Europe, peace was over. They declared the war was needed in Europe. So the let him come home, where he had to fly in over the Himalayas. He was driven back. They made a road, a trail. So he was driving back on the road in a jeep. He got back, married your mother. He met my mother in a town called Bartonville, Illinois. That’s where she grew up. In a big 'ol farm house with two sisters. My father was stationed in Purea when he left Greenland. Where he went through training, working with these mules, he met the three sisters. And my grandfather and grandmother were old world hospitality. They would come on Sundays, 3 different men, and they would Sunday...Sunday... afternoon dinner together. And they did that for quite a few months. And all three sisters married the boys that they brought home for dinner. And throughout the war they wrote to each of them. So my father came back, got married, and took my mother to New Jersey where his family was, the Italian side of the family. Became pregnant, and that was me. I was born in in 1946 in October in jersey City, New Jersey. JFC: okay. . You good? JAC: yeah. JFC: Okay. END OF INTERVIEW Page 14 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7dc4b58386fee1ce5a7880e76ff87dcb.mp3 be051150223b91770862b4aba7835d39 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Cospito_Joseph Title A name given to the resource Joseph Cospito audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cospito, Joseph Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Cospito, Justin Description An account of the resource Joseph Cospito likes working on his house, playing with his children, being a stay at home dad, and listening to books on audio tape. He is a retired science professor who is married to an episcopal priest. He discusses growing up in the fifties in Bartonville, Illinois. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Discrimination Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-09 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/25a34507c1ce9da731c7419251690859.pdf 17248a8ef004197bc13074555b8a720f PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Interviewee: Ryan Cronk Interviewers: Kalle Tucker, Rachael Berkenpas, and Tyler Nowak Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/2/2011 Biography and Description Ryan Cronk is a student at Grand Valley State University, double majoring in Accounting and Economics. Ryan is an active member of the LGBT community as well as the Delta Upsilon fraternity. Ryan passionately works to educate others on LGBT issues within the Grand Valley community. He discusses religion and what it is like to be a gay male at Grand Valley State University. Transcript CRONK: Ok, so …we were talking about religion. Anyways, I was raised with a couple of religions. , I actually went to a Baptist church at one point. , I went to like a Christian church, and we went to…I don’t know what you would call it…it was Christian, but it was just off like, I don’t know. Maybe it was just a different style because it wasn’t like, go sit in pews, and get like, talked at, it was called …Resurrection Life Church. So it’s like, it’s more of a modern type church. I mean, they had an on-stage band that used like guitars and drums and all that. Yeah, I mean it was like Christian based but it wasn’t like what I would think of as a “traditional” church where we went to like a Baptist church then a traditional Christian church then we went to Resurrection Life. , so anyway, and we had it with those…we had some bad things happen like my mom, when she was going through a divorce with my biological dad was actually why we got kicked out of the Baptist church because they don’t believe, , in divorce. Or at least that particular church didn’t believe in divorce unless it was the man leaving the woman. They believed that the woman couldn’t leave the man. So anyway we got kicked out of that one. So anyway, overall as a kid I never really like religion, I never really got exposed to, you know, the good side of religion. , so then like, like growing up, you know, I started looking into for myself and I decided that I wanted to give it a try again and it was actually last ser that I started going to a church downtown called Saint Marks, and the reason I decided to try them out and like, just open myself up to that again was because they actually display a LGBT flag on the side of their church. , and they are open and completely welcoming to all people. It’s not like “you have to fit our, you know, particular view”, and even though they have , their roots specifically Page 1 �in Catholicism and all that, they think that religion is meant for everybody and it’s not like you have to fit perfectly in line with what this says in order to believe it. So, and I found that great because I’m one of the people where I can believe in something, even it’s not 100% what I am, type thing. Like for me, I have a lot of values that fall in line, like, with Christianity and Catholicism. So, I mean, like, sex before marriage, I really don’t like that idea so stuff like that. So I mean it was just nice for me to find a healthy outlet to be able to just go and see other people who thought that way too and then hear them say, “you know, we’re absolutely fine with that, we’re glad that you, you know, were able to find us and have a place to come and not feel discriminated against” or you know, like, having that feeling of really, that really awkward feeling I guess of like, when you go into a church and it’s like “oh I believe this, this, and this and that’s fine, but then they’re like, and we hate gays.” So then you’re like “oh, hey everybody…” type thing. So, you know, I just didn’t have that feeling, so yeah, I think I am on a really good level with religion right now. , unfortunately my step dad has used religion has a weapon against me because he is 7th Day Adventist and the way I classify them is they are kinda halfway between Judaism and Christianity, so they do a lot of things like oh you can’t eat pork and I’m like well…I eat ham so ok, not gonna work with this religion right away. , and they have really anti-gay views and stuff like that so he uses that, he is at this highest religious point when he tries to discriminate against people like, he’s willing to use any religious excuse to say that person is horrible, unless its him. Then everything is fine. So, if I had just been going off his example, I would have hated religion but since I found it for myself, and something I agree with, over all I am on a good level with religion. I respect people that have strong religious beliefs even if, you know, that they don’t like me because I am glad they have something to believe in. Unfortunately I wish they could see people for the…persons…that they are. Sorry, sometimes my English and grammar suck when I try to make up words, but I wish they would just see people’s sides of it that yes, you can have your beliefs about what I do is wrong, but you shouldn’t hate me as a person. , so, that’s one of the reasons I was so scared in high school because we have more churches than restaurants, so, it was kinda scary the idea that all my friends would be more on the religious side rather than the person side. So yeah. BERKENPAS: When you came to Grand Valley, what kinds of things did you get involved in? CRONK: Let’s see, freshman year I actually moved into one of the traditional dorms called Copeland Living Center. So, I actually, the first thing I got involved with was my Community Council because I was in Student Council in high school, and in middle school, so to me that was like, the most close thing so I just kinda wanted that safe feeling of something familiar, but I also get involved with the LGBT Center right away, my first week of classes actually, I went in and at that point, you were still able to just go in and sit and hang out in the Center but they changed their policy on that just because, , they wanted to become more a professional office where people could come with problems rather than just a ton of people hanging out in there. , Page 2 �so anyway, I started hanging out at the LGBT Center as much as possible because it was just nice to have that feeling of oh, I don’t have to care at all in here. , I also got involved with the group Out and About which is kinda like the GSA here and its open to LGBT students as well as its allies. It’s a social group, their actually the ones who put on the drag show like two weeks ago. , they also do the coming out event around the clock tower where you can like, sign the big door. So yeah, they do a lot of stuff like that, like social things on campus. They’re not really activist related; at least I didn’t think so. But, I mean, I had a lot of fun in there. It wasn’t exactly what I was looking for out of my college experience just because a lot of the people in there, not to say they were bad people but like I said earlier, a lot of them just have more bitter views towards the, you know, straight community or people who don’t accept the LGBT community. I’m not, I’m not looking to hate people about it, it’s like, you know, I find it unfortunate that they feel that way but I just want to do everything I can to just, be nice to them and accept them, where, some of them had views like it’s us against them. That’s the problem, it’s like we can’t have that on both sides. So anyways, I just kinda distanced myself from groups like that or people like that just because, you know, that not what I wanted, that s not how I felt. But I did end up getting involved with the Residence Housing Association, which, I worked with people from all housing areas on campus to put on events and then I, later got involved with Greek Life. I mean, I just found a lot of good outlets for the different things. I mean, through Greek Life I have kinda been able to help with LGBT things too because I mean, through my own fraternity, , I’m actually the one to give the LGBT speech or whatever because , our headquarters says we have to have a meeting based on LGBT civil rights or whatever. It’s not anything big or fancy; it’s just kinda like terminology and stuff like that. So yeah, anyway, Grand Valley just offered so many like new things for me to do and new ways for me to express myself that I tried to take as most advantage of that as possible, especially right away. TUCKER: So how was it joining a frat, because everybody has that stereotypical idea, even if Grand Valley isn’t like that at all? CRONK: Well first of all, I joined a fraternity. I did not join a frat. So that’s something that personally, I have really strong views on because frat is the stereotype. Unfortunately we do have a frat or two on campus but, I am part of a fraternity. But yeah, it was really weird because I believed a lot of the stereotypes going in and I was scared because I thought stuff like hazing and you know, paddling and abuse, and stuff like that, I was worried that was going to happen especially if they found out I was gay. So, when I actually started rushing freshman year, I didn’t bring out, I didn’t deny the fact I was gay, but I definitely didn’t bring out that fact that I was. So, I mean, clearly if someone asked me I would say yes, but if no one asked I didn’t say anything. , and then I found out that’s not what it’s like here at all. , I mean Grand Valley with their strong anti-hazing policies, I mean that clears up 50% of the stereotypes like you know, things that I was scared about right there. , I thought they were going to be very close-minded Page 3 �in the way that, you know, it’s a bunch of straight guys that are testosterone driven, you know, sports, that’s it…type thing. , that wasn’t it at all. I mean I found a place, like with the one I ended up joining, I found a place where it’s like I haven’t played a sport since I joined. I think I participated in one game of ultimate Frisbee before I was like ok that was fun, time to be done. , I mean, in my own fraternity there’s 3 other gay guys so there are a few of us. We’re not a huge number, but our brothers do accept us. When it comes to things like our formals, one of my brothers who is gay ended up bringing a guy as a date and I mean everyone was fine with that. I ended up bringing a guy as a date, and they all treated him just as fine. It’s not like, you know, do you see who he brought? They didn’t care. We were all there to have fun and it was, you know, a date event so they are all very accepting. I mean we, the way my fraternity formed, we actually started it here on campus, Delta Upsilon, wasn’t here until the first semester of my freshman year. So, we ended up, just kinda being thrown together. With some of the fraternities, they are so well established that, you know, they have a mold, and they only recruit people who fit that exact mold, where as for us we were so far out of a mold, like we had people who were at so completely different ends of the spectrum. Like we had really conservative people and some really liberal, so we all kinda got mashed together. We, actually had one brother, I won’t say his name, but he was very against like, you know, gays. He had that view of they are horrible people and they are going to hell, type thing and now just to see the progress he has made after getting to know us, it’s like he has really done a 180. Not that he is like, an ally in the sense that he like, loves gay people and wants to be surrounded by them, but when it comes to us he is not as anti-gay people. So yeah, a lot of things I think I was worried about joining a fraternity and I think things people, , kinda expect that fraternities are going to do like oh, they’re going to hate their gay members, they’re gonna single them out, they’re gonna haze them extra just because whatever, none of that happens. Especially here at Grand Valley, not that I have become aware of anyways and it’s definitely not what I went through. I was very glad to have that, I think I’ve had a great experience and with things like Greek Allies and Advocates that they started now, I mean, they’re just really proving that Grand Valley is a safe place, but also the Greek system is a great place to be yourself. So, I got really fortunate with that overall. [Long Pause] CRONK: I have a question for myself that might help you guys out, how’s that? [Laughter from Group] CRONK: Ok one of things I do get asked is, like when did you know? , like how early or whatever. And, my response to that usually is, because people get it in their mind that either you wake up one morning and all of the sudden it’s like oh my God, I’m gay, I’m gonna be gay now…or, like you’ve known forever and you’ve just been hiding it forever. I’m neither one of Page 4 �those. , like, when I was little, when I say little I mean like 6 or something like that…, is the first memory I have of any, anything to indicate my orientation at the time. It didn’t mean anything to me but looking back I’m like “Oh, well…I wish I had understood what they meant”, you know, way back when because I have an older sister that would let me play with her Barbie dolls. Well, I used to like her Barbie dolls more than she did…like completely, and I used to wanna play with the Barbie herself, and you know, dress her up and all that and my sister kinda didn’t care, like she used to wanna make them fight and stuff. She did a re-enactment of the Real World with Barbie and she made them smack each other and it was like oh, that’s weird but I always wanted to dress them up. , so I mean that didn’t mean anything at the time because you know, I was six and I could play with Barbies if I wanted to, it didn’t matter. But…then I used to just notice, like even at that age I would notice men and like, you know, males more than I would women. You know, at that age I never had any inclination towards women but like, maybe it was because I was a guy I just noticed, like you know, males more in terms of idols or, you know, the shows I watched, I don’t know. At that time again it’s almost like, you know, normal child whatever. , then when I got to the age of 10, maybe 11, …I hadn’t started developed feelings for girls yet. , you know, people at that time had started like dating and I just, wasn’t interested in that. I really didn’t understand why you’d wanna have a girlfriend or anything like that. So… I started to realize that just wasn’t normal because everyone would tell me it wasn’t normal like oh, you know, you’re not developing feelings for women. You know, 13, when my hormones were supposed to be raging and I was supposed to being going gaga over girls and trying to impress them, I just thought I really don’t care, I don’t see what the big deal is. It really wasn’t until I was about 13 or 14 I finally learned what gay was. For me, up until that boy me being more attracted to men was just a feeling but it didn’t have a term, or like a concept behind it…it was just something I felt. It wasn’t until…actually I think it was on TV and they were talking about, something like, gay rights and it was some kind of talking about marriage and you know, men marrying men, and I could relate the idea of marriage like “Oh, a man and a woman love each other they get married and that’s what you call a family.” Then I heard about marriage between two men and they called that gay, and I was like “Oh, well…I eventually want to get married to a man, so wait, what’s gay?” So, one day I went online and looked up gay and of course, Google or whatever search engine, brought up a ton of porn sites and I didn’t really know what that was so I went down and somehow I eventually found out, I think I ended up Webstering gay men and I still had, you know at 13, no idea what that meant. , but it just kinda attached a label to it…so, that was really my first exposure to what gay was. I went from being, you know, a normal kid that had feelings to who I was attracted to, to a kid that was gay and attracted to men, type thing. So, you know, that’s weird I kinda stopped being innocent on the idea of, you know, what LGBT is and all that and kinda of, moving into more 14/15 is when I was really getting ready to come out because it was really starting to build up like that’s who I really was, like I could identify my own feelings and I was starting to relate to Page 5 �them, finally. So that’s when I like, truly became a gay male more or less, because I had started to accept myself for that. [Ryan laughs] Ryan continues: And then I hit like, 16, when I came out. I actually came out as a bi-sexual. I talked to my mom like “Listen, I’m gay but I’m actually like, bi.” because I wanted to be at least bi, because it was like if I can’t be straight then at least let me be bi because, like, I can try to fit in by dating girls and stuff like that and…that was a complete like, kinda wish I had but then I realized I was gay. I didn’t like both, I just liked men so that was kinda like, that was kinda the transition I went through…”I’m not straight, maybe I’m bi, no I’m gay.” type thing. TUCKER: So how active are you? Like, with your rights and stuff, do you…I don’t know how to say what I’m thinking I guess… CRONK: Do I march in parades and wave rainbow flags? TUCKER: Yeah, well…you know what I mean, not to be stereotypical… CRONK: No, I know exactly what you mean. That’s …I’m really not, actually… to be honest, I’m just not an activist in general with like, anything. For me, the way I…promote my rights and the way I try to like, bridge that gap of inequality is by doing stuff like this. I try to sit down with people and just say “Listen, this is who I am, I’m really not any different from you…” well compared to you guys I guess I am… [Laughter from Group] Ryan continues: “I’m not really any different from you…I like men, I go to school, you know, I work, you know…” stuff like that, it’s like, I’m a normal person, I just happen to be a male that likes men. That’s a very small piece of who I am, but people like look at that like “Oh my God, that’s your entire life.” No, it’s not. So, …that’s really where I would consider myself an activist for gay rights is I try to break the stereotypes on a one-on-one basis with people and like, just because I’m gay doesn’t mean I have a lisp, doesn’t mean that I, you know, that I dress like a girl or really stylish, it’s like, I shop at Meijer, you know, I shop at American Eagle if I can afford it…which I can’t, so it’s like, you know, I’m not top of the line, I don’t ever see myself being a Lady Gaga…whatever, so you know, I like her music but I really prefer country so it’s like, all the things that people say “Oh you’re gay so you like…” I’m like “No, sorry.” [Laughter from Group] Ryan continues: So yeah, it’s like…I’m not really an activist but I try to, I try to just be real with people and hope that that will have the same affect because I think that “kill them with Page 6 �kindness” is way better than shoving my views in someone else’s face and saying “now change”. TUCKER: So maybe on like, the smallest scale…like, more individual level? CRONK: Yeah, I’m the smallest scale activist you’ll ever see. But I think I am one of the most effective, I would hope because like, I mean, I’ve seen with a lot of my friends, like, they think they don’t like gay people and they meet one and they’re like “Oh, you’re a real person…ok, I like gay people now.”. It’s like “There you go, see? That’s all it took.” So instead of like, the big parades…I mean, that’s great, I’m not against it, but I don’t need that to be proud of who I am, you know, my orientation and what I’ve been through, …but I’m sure some people do and if that’s how they find it best to, you know, try to make a change in the world, I want them to go for it, but you won’t see me doing that. [Ryan laughs] NOWAK: Do you think that like, the parades are effective in getting the point out? That’s it’s not really a bad thing? To be gay? [Ryan hesitates] Ryan he: I almost want to say no, and hopefully anyone that hears or reads this will not take offensive to that, just because …just like with any parade, you go out to a parade because you already believe in it or you already support it. You don’t really go out to a parade to have your mind changed politically, socially, whatever. So, I mean, it’s great that they’re making an appearance and saying, “Listen, this issue is very real, you know, you can’t say they are no gay people in Michigan because we’re here and there’s no gay people in the U.S., no, we’re here and you know, we are a thriving community and we are a culture.” However, I think some people over do it and I think some people try to use those as a tool to like, put their views on other people and that’s kinda, shooting itself in the foot just because if you’re forcing someone to think a way, they’re going to resist it. I mean, I went through it where people were trying to force the heterosexual lifestyle on me and I was like “No.” I was resistant to it and I didn’t want that and , I think that stuff like, you know, the gay pride parades, even some of just making people, you know, look at certain posters every day, I mean, to me that can be overstepping a boundary and like, putting your views on someone else. Why would we want to do that when we’re trying to fight it ourselves? So, I mean, I know they have a place and they are good, but sometimes to me they can get over the top. Like, what people try to do with them and what people try to show with them. I don’t know; personal view. [Ryan laughs] Page 7 �TUCKER: Do you ever see like, a changing coming? Because you said there is bias like both ways, like the gay community kinda resents the straight community for like, resenting them and it just sounds like a vicious cycle. Do you ever see a change? [Ryan sighs and pauses] CRONK: I would hope that there will be someday where like, the middle is just met by everyone and like, one day both sides will just… [Ryan sighs again] CRONK: I hate to say it this way so just completely understand what I’m about to say. It’s like, I think if one side, like the more hetero side in general would kinda lower their guard and be like, less outspoken, then I think the LGBT community could meet them by lowering theirs and then, you know. BUT, that’s not to say that, it’s…the heterosexual community’s fault that we resent them, have something against them, you know, because it’s not. There’s just as many accepting hetero people that get discriminated against by the LGBT community I’m sure, as there is the other way around. Just because, I mean…people are going to believe what they want to and they’re going to think what they want to based off from how they were raised. So, I think that, if everything works out perfect, I think someday compromise will be reached where everyone is going to realize that it’s like, we’re all just trying to live a life that’s fulfilling, you know, and whatever that means, I mean if that means getting married, I think that someday, you should be able to get married no matter who you are. But I also think that, you know, if you don’t want to, because like, that’s where the thing that bugs me too is that, people automatically assume that every gay person wants to get married and that’s our top issue. It’s like, I personally do want to get married someday, but that’s not the top thing I think about when I wake up is, “Oh, I’m gonna try to get gay marriage, you know, to be accepted because I want to get married someday.” It’s like, well it would be really nice, but I could live without it. At least right now I think I could live without it, …but anyway. I mean, I think someday there will be a compromise, and I think people will just realize that we’re all the same and we just need to accept that from now on. So, and maybe, who knows, you know a lot of the studies that we talked about in Milt’s class actually show that our generation is way more accepting than our parents were and they were way more accepting than their parents were, so it’s like, as long as that trend continues, I think that we’re all going to be happy in the future someday. So, I mean there will always be that small pocket that don’t, and there’s always going to be that small pocket of people who don’t like those people for that reason, but in general I think, you know, it’s gonna go down more and more, I mean it has been for generations. So, I hope at least. [Ryan laughs] Page 8 �NOWAK: I feel like you just keep answering my questions. I make a question in my head and then you answer it. [Laughter from Group] TUCKER: I know, I was so gonna ask like, “Oh, do you think it’s like, decreasing by generation?” [Ryan jokes] CRONK: Yeah, I’ve done this a time or two. [More laughter from Group] CRONK: How about another question for myself? Okay! [Group laughs again] CRONK: Like, just kinda, what are my plans for the future? Like, right now its fine that I’m doing all of this stuff in college but where do I see this taking me? Or how do I feel like I’m going to react once I’m out in the real world? Alright, well! To answer that question… [Laughter from Group] CRONK: Ok. Alright well Here’s what I think is. Well I’m really not sure at least this semester I’m trying to make it through college and really the rest of my life will happen but so far I want to go into the peace corp. because in my life I feel like I’ve been given a lot just like you know I’ve gotten a lot of opportunity in my life and I want to go give back as much as possible and through the peace corps. I can do that. It’s been something I’ve aspired to do since I was in high school and after that I either want to stay in a foreign country like I’ve always, It’s always kind of been my plan to move out of the United States because of the policy that you know is I can’t get married unless I stay and live in Massachusetts and you know a couple of other states, but it’s like when I can only be legally married in four states or something like that it’s not the right county for me type thing. I eventually want to move and live in a foreigner nation full time, not sure which one yet just because I kind of want to see where life take me. You know how I like things, and I may go into the Peace Corps and find out the United States is awesome and that I just want to stay here forever and if I were to stay in the US I’d probably wind up on the East Coast just because I mean I’ve been to Washington D.C. before. It’s like I haven’t really visited the West Coast too much and I don’t know much about the West Coast, But I love the like history of the East Coast with all the colonial you know heritage it has. I’d probably wind up there because I know that I could be happy there and there is a lot of things there that I could enjoy so yeah. That and I don’t ever intend on one day being a huge activist. I don’t plan on someday growing up and leading one of the parades or anything, but I just hope someday to always be someone others can come to like to find out more like in a business someday Page 9 �whether I run a business because I’m kind of considering into looking into that still or whether I just work for a business I want to be involved somehow in like the HR side where I could be I don’t know one of the people in the office that is open to work issues related to the LGBT community because at least here in Michigan there is not many I think Grand Valley is one of the few actually public universities that embraces LGBT community in the way of that they have the equal partner rights or partner benefits or whatever. , but it seems like Grand Rapids actually do have city things on the book that make it so businesses don’t necessarily have to keep LGBT people but overall it’s not a reason that they would necessarily fire you I mean not every single one, but there are a good number of them so that’s encouraging. So anyway I would want to be someone in a business like that. That just can help relate between maybe people who don’t understand why this is a problem in the workplace to those who are like going through it and kind of facing that. So I don’t plan on making a career out of being gay, but hopefully I could use it to help my future career so. NOWAK: Do you think that like Grand Valley and like Grand Rapids in general like accepts like in the workplace a lot of that stuff? Are they getting better? CRONK: I say Grand Valley is definitely like I am completely on the Grand Valley bandwagon when it comes to like equal rights for people of all gender and ethnicities stuff like that. There amazing. Grand Rapids I haven’t had much experience like I lived in the bubble of Coopersville so and then I’ve kind of lived in the bubble of Grand Valley, but when I lived in Grand Rapids this ser I did apply for jobs and I didn’t hide the fact that I was gay and I ended up not getting hired at them. So I mean, not to say the oh I applied for this job and I didn’t get it because I was gay but it’s like “Oh maybe that’s just you know not as good that I was willing to say that you know to them,” but if I don’t get a job because I am gay I am completely ok with that. I mean that’s not something that should determine like with fuel me being gay doesn’t affect how the sandwiches I make turn out. I mean it means nothing like maybe if I was working in, I don’t even know what that would affect. I can’t even think of a job that that would influence my performance. So anyway, so but I mean with the night life I mean with the couple of gay clubs in Grand Rapids and just the fact there aren’t a lot of bias incidents that I’ve heard that have happened in the Grand Rapids area where a homosexual person being beaten in the street or something like that. I mean, it makes me really comfortable with being gay you know even in the Grand Rapids area and with such the Hipster you know trend that’s coming out in Grand Rapids I means there’s more people that are not caring on a like community basis so I mean coffee shops, it doesn’t matter who goes to it, you’re going to have a good time. (Whispering) NOWAK: going back to like you wanting to go to the Peace Corps do you worry a lot about your mom like leaving or do you just feel like you just need to progress? Page 10 �CRONK: I do, this is actually the first year I have lived outside the home with from the family, I actually live in a house here in Allendale now, and it’s like yeah I worry she’s still- has medical problems that I found out like yesterday she had three seizures in one day and that was like 3 or 4 weeks ago and I am just finding out about it. So it’s like stuff like that worries me and I do spend time like thinking about whether I made the right decision leaving, but I completely believe in my independence because I want to take care of her but at the same time I have obligations to myself that I have to kind of fulfill. Because like living at home I would go to class and then I would go home, and then I might do a few of my fraternity activities, but that was mainly it, I wasn’t able to like spend, I wouldn’t be able to go out all weekend and stay with friends. It would be I’d have to come home because mommy and daddy are still you know checking on you and stuff like that wondering where you are. I didn’t have a car, so I would borrow my moms, so there was that and so kind of like yeah I believe that I know I have a lot of things that like between what- where I am now and where I want to go as a person, moving out was a major step but yeah I still have that worry what happens I’m not there and what should I be doing as a good son to like take care of that. Because I still believe in the old fashioned idea of like the children should take care of their parents. Just like in general like I don’t like the idea of retirement homes, like I wish that my family had been able to have like my grandma move in with us and like stay with us because she could have taken care of us while my parents were at work and stuff like that, but our society doesn’t necessarily believe that anymore so I’m kind of stuck in the old fashion idea of it, but so but I see that eventually I do want my mom to move in with me like when I’m older you know once a have an established job. I’ll probably be forty or something before any of that can happen, but I do eventually intend on like at least my mom moving back in with me when she gets older. It’s nice because I can go out and party and not worry about it anymore. I finally enjoyed spending time with friends all weekend and not worrying who I’m going home to at night because my roommates and all that are doing just as much like they’re gone just as much as I am… CRONK: Crazy roommates. [Laughter from Group] CRONK: Rachael, how has your stuff with relationships been working out? Rachel: My what, oh, what? CRONK: Dating. Rachel: Yeah, How has relationships been working out for you? CRONK: Well actually I have never had a gay relationship, and I’ve been out since junior year of high school and it’s my junior year of college. Yeah anyway, that’s another thing that when it comes to stereotypes is that “Oh, we’re whores” more or less like that’s one that I’ve heard Page 11 �from my family there like “Oh, are you just going to sleep around?” Now I’m like “No, I still have values.” , so yeah it’s like one of those stereotypes is that the LGBT community is just full of whores and you know we don’t really care about having long term relationships we just kind of want to have fun “Hit it and quit it” you know whole thing. That is not what I believe at all, and I always like- it kind of sickens me the idea of “hit it and quit it” it’s like sorry no that’s not what I want for myself and that’s not what we want in general. , I do want to be in a relationship like especially in college and that’s one of the things that has been challenging is even though I have taken this whole process of coming out and like being comfortable with myself and I still haven’t found that someone, and like everyone says “Oh yeah, first of all with high school is where you know can learn about dating for the real world.” Well then when I came to college everyone’s like “oh yeah, this is where you should be able to just you know date whatever and if you break up with someone well it really won’t matter that much because there’s plenty of other options.” And I’m like “Thanks. I love hearing that” because I haven’t dated anyone even though I’m willing to it’s not like I’m sitting there reading a book saying all the time “oh no I just don’t want to be in a relationship.” Like if I could get into a relationship right now I would. Unfortunately it’s one of the struggles I face even here at Grand Valley is just the idea of there’s still not a lot of opportunity. Like I came from a place where there was no opportunity for dating and no there’s opportunity I just don’t get that opportunity to. So , and that has played a big part in some of the struggles I’ve had a Grand Valley just because it kind of wears you down at least for me because I am very social. I’m very much very much like- I’m vested in other people and I just wish I had that one special person that was just kind of a relationship for me where all the relationships I have right now are like friends, business or my business fraternity like brothers, my social fraternity brothers, all that. It’s all things where I give 100% and I might get something back. And I just want that feeling of always getting you know always getting something back from someone else and not really having to try. So it’s like, that’s one of the struggles that I would say I still face is just that feeling of I still feel like it kind of like it wasn’t worth it coming out and all this because yeah I have good self-esteem now but I haven’t really gotten everything I want out of it, and even though to me it feels like it should be a really small thing to get back, it’s been a really big problem so I mean just that. I found here at Grand Valley this is personal experience I sure if you talk to a million- you know or if you talk to every gay person on campus it would be a different story, but for me it’s been because I didn’t date in high school like men at least that people- other gay men here on the campus aren’t really open to dating me just because I don’t have the experience or there’s the other half that because I’m not a whore they don’t want to date me because they want whores to date more or less. So it’s like it’s a really bad reflection on us because it’s like the people that do just sleep around perpetuate the stereotype that all we do is just sleep around but unfortunately I’ve found here you know that I fall in a really weird middle of, I haven’t really dated and slept around and because I haven’t dated and slept around that people just don’t want to date me, and I’m like Page 12 �“How does that work?” Like you would think somewhere there would be you know people that would say “Wow, that’s really great I’m really happy about that,” but so far I haven’t found any. TUCKER: So it’s not a matter of like meeting people like meeting other guys it’s just like more of like your morals don’t match sometimes? CRONK: Kind of. I guess I don’t know. I know a very small group of the gay community here at Grand Valley just because the ones I met through the center and those were pretty much all of those were the ones that were like angry more or less about what they’ve been through, and I was like “Ok, so that kind of disqualifies all those people right there.” And then the Greek men that I’ve met that are gay and yeah, there kind of the ones that are the whole they enjoy their freedom, let’s just put it that way, more than so it’s not like I’ve met every gay person here on campus, but the one’s I have, yeah, things just haven’t worked out. So , but with- I work technically five jobs and all that so it’s like I don’t really have time to go out and meet everybody, and the few sources I have found that kind of get my name out there are not exactly the most respectable ones. So , I wish I could just meet people that are more like myself in the way ones like you would never suspect are gay until you find out “Oh, they’re gay” type thing, and I don’t get to meet a lot of people like that. NOWAK: Do you think they are a lot of people who like struggle with that? Like just not like obviously there’s not that many at Grand Valley because you haven’t found… CRONK: Yeah, I would think there are. I mean I would to think there’s a lot of people kind of just like me except they’re not as vocal about you know about who they are. , where yeah, I mean they probably came from the same type of background, raised here whether in Michigan or another form of the Bible Belt where it’s like they never got to experience that before and even though they have the opportunity here I’m sure they have friends who are really supportive of them, but just in general they still kind of keep to the idea that it’s not accepted because everywhere but Grand Valley like Grand Valley is kind of a little dot in the middle of a lot of hate, a lot of backwards policies. , so anyway, I’m sure they are thinking long term like kept that to themselves, like self-preservation I would say, and that kind of makes me sad because I know some- I know one person in particular where they’re kind of in the denial phase that they’re still straight. Anyway, so high school, but. [Laughter from Group] CRONK: Sorry, but anyway. They , it’s like that person in particular I wish they would realize how ok it is to go through that process now because once they get out of here it’s going to be twenty times harder. Like if it’s challenging now, it’s going to be even harder once you get out there and you know you don’t have that small island that we have here of acceptance and freedom to try- like because you know even that group out and about, I mean I Page 13 �didn’t like it but I at least had the opportunity to try to be around like minded people, and you know so, , I’ll be really sad if people don’t get to take advantage of that before they leave here, and I mean I think it would be really hard to try to after seeing that even if they weren’t a part of it to try to go through the process in a group of- area that is not accepting you know like it is here. NOWAK: Do you think that it could be also that there are just like people who are like on the fence kind of who don’t really want to come out and are just kind of timid about it? Like CRONK: I’m sure there is a large population of that too. , I mean it’s a choice. For me it was a choice that was a no brainer to make, but I am sure it was- there is a struggle for a lot of people that, I mean you’re literally changing your life even though you’re not really changing anything about yourself, you’re changing how other people are going to see you. , and it’s something that I wish more people could relate to just the idea of, to a certain extent you have to give up everything you know, everything you’re comfortable with. , because you really do have to redefine everything you know when it comes to like, like how you act towards other people may completely change, like how you’re willing to act towards other people. , so I definitely remember and understand what it’s like to be one of those that- it’s just a struggle to say “is it worth it? Should I?” because there is so much good that could come from it, but there’s a lot of bad you have to acknowledge when making you know that choice of- because when I say choice I don’t think being gay is a choice it’s acknowledging on a like external basis that you’re gay is where the choice comes in. So, I was born gay or I was you know whatever. On a fundamental human level I was always gay, and the reason I chose to be gay was because I chose to let other people know. I didn’t choose to you know perpetuate the façade that I was straight, and like I think a lot of people haven’t got to that point yet. You know, they’re not comfortable enough; they don’t have enough incentive yet. I mean I know people who were raise in an area that was actually accepting of gays, some of them still haven’t come out. They have come out to a couple people, but they still haven’t come out in general. Just because there is no incentive, people already accept who they are, gay or not. So they’re like “Why should I come out when I’m not?” Where I felt like people weren’t accepting me for who I truly was so for me the incentive was to come out and say “Well listen, you can take me or leave me for who I actually am not who I’m pretending to be.” So I mean maybe some people just need more incentive and maybe that’s- someday they’ll want a relationship and it’s like well now I need to say you know “Oh, I’m gay. I’m going to date people now.” And when I say gay I kind of incorporate LGBT with that. I’m sorry I’ve been using that over and over, but that’s the one I relate to most, because I am. So, like yeah I’m kind of using gay as a blanket term for homosexual. So anyway, sorry. Page 14 �TUCKER: You kind of touched on this, but like let’s say a student twenty years from now. Is your biggest advice to get active and like not deny yourself like to get involved in groups so you can be a part of it? Or what would you say? I know it’s a big question. CRONK: No I, yeah that’s great. I mean, if someone is listening to this twenty years from now and having to decide whether to make that choice or not I would hope they’d just decide to do what’s best for them because that’s you know I that’s really vague and it’s like but it’s that’s the only way that we can do this. I’ve heard stories of people being forced to come out. Like they’ve confided in someone and then that person spread it to like their entire high school and so the person was forced, and that’s a horrible experience. I mean they were completely crushed. They had to go to counseling for stuff like that. So I would never want to be that way, but and I know some people wouldn’t be comfortable like me where it’s just like “Oh, if you ask me I’m going to tell you the truth.” So, I mean just do what’s right for you. I know at the beginning of my process I printed out pictures of men I found attractive and my way of getting it back is I had a folder of these pictures underneath my bed, and that was enough for a while for me because then I felt like “Oh, you know I can look at attractive men without being weird,” you know like people seeing or whatever. , and if that’s enough for people start with that, you know , start reading you know stories by gay authors with gay characters. Watch Modern Family you know that has a gay couple and the daughter Willy. I mean you know whatever, just small steps like that can make you feel better about yourself and help you decide you know if you’re like ready. If you’re you know, if this is how you want to go. Because I mean the gay lifestyle, I consider it- there to be a gay lifestyle. I know there’s controversy that saying “You know, no there’s a human lifestyle, part of it just happens to be gay.” To me there is a gay lifestyle; I mean we are our own culture. And I mean some people may find it’s just not for them, I mean there are things that I know I don’t agree with you know when it comes to like the practices of LGBT people and stuff like that. So it’s like maybe they’ll just find out in general that they don’t want to be associated with that at all. You know if that’s where their feelings are they may just find it’s easier and better for them like especially if they are really religious and their religion really doesn’t support it. You know, I just hope they would do what they feel is best because at the end of the day you have to make yourself happy. and this is one of those things that you definitely have to be comfortable with yourself in order to embrace it like in order to go through it because there is a lot of challenge that you have to get over ii and sometimes like I would lay in bed at night and the only thing that like made it all worth it was the thought that’s I’m finally doing what’s best for me, not for what’s necessarily better for everyone else. So , Hopefully that answered it. TUCKER: Yeah CRONK: I’m Sorry. Page 15 �TUCKER: No, it’s ok. CRONK: mind. Sometimes I feel like I talk in circles, but I swear it’s all irrelevant in my [Laughter from Group] TUCKER: Is there anything we haven’t talked about yet that you want us to know, want everyone to know I guess? CRONK: Not really, I mean I don’t know. It’s not like even though I’m gay and like obviously I have the normal human desires. I want to date someone and stuff like that. It’s not really something I think about on a daily basis anymore like when I was coming out it was. It used to be a really big point in my life, but I mean since I’ve gone through the process and since I consider myself growing up I mean I would hope I am always becoming more mature like every day. , it’s just another piece of who I am. It’s not the whole puzzle. So , I just hope that people get to see that. I hope more people get to understand that you know being gay is not a bad thing. I mean, it has depending on your religion, depending on your raising it may not be the best thing, but I don’t think I’m going to hell. You know, I think and if I am going to go to hell it’s because I have done a lot of other things that are going to put me there. This isn’t one of those things. , and hell, man if I go to hell for that I hope I get to date there I mean I won’t have a problem meeting people. So, got to look for the silver lining in it. So I mean, you know whatever , and I think I do enough good things on this earth, you know, to the god I know and the god I believe in see’s that and you know puts it on a scale you know. So , I can’t think of anything else. NOWAK: a half. I don’t know if we have anything else to add. We’ve got like a house and TUCKER: Do you feel good about it? CRONK: I love it. I am glad you guys are doing this. I’m glad your teacher is getting you guys involved because I mean I can’t speak from the heterosexual side, but I mean hopefully you guys are at least learning something, getting a new prospective. NOWAK: Yeah. TUCKER: Yeah, definitely. [Group discusses project technicalities] Page 16 �CRONK: Ok, cool. [Ryan laughs]. So no, I’m glad you guys are doing this it really makes me feel good to like see that maybe so- and I like the idea that maybe I’m making a difference for somebody someday somewhere, so. I like it, good ego boost for the day. [Laughter from Group] NOWAK: Well thanks for sharing everything. TUCKER: Yeah, thank you. CRONK: Absolutely, thank you guys for having me. END OF INTERVIEW Page 17 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9287ae8463ff36b9929ea3d942fd506e.mp3 f1d07e747adb87cca5749ae00abdd331 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Cronk_Ryan Title A name given to the resource Ryan Cronk audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cronk, Ryan Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Tucker, Kalle Berkenpas, Rachael Nowak, Tyler Description An account of the resource Ryan Cronk is a student at Grand Valley State University, double majoring in Accounting and Economics. Ryan is an active member of the LGBT community as well as the Delta Upsilon fraternity. Ryan passionately works to educate others on LGBT issues within the Grand Valley community. He discusses religion and what it is like to be a gay male at Grand Valley State University. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Gays--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-12-02 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8f21ace56fb55b08f2f26289e7195ff7.pdf f1f6379686ea07710856d139ff23c536 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Ivo Soljan Interviewers: Logan Knoper, Alyssa Hall, Tim O’Neil and Tierra Jackson Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/23/2012 Biography and Description Ivo Soljan compares and contrasts the different countries that he has lived in. Transcript O’NEIL: Ok, we just need you to say what your name is. It’s lvo Sol SOLJAN: Ivo (EE-VO). That’s how you pronounce that. O’NEIL: Oh, I’m sorry SOLJAN: That’s ok. That’s Ok. Some call me even “Evil”. Don’t do that. Ivo Soljan. O’NEIL: Ok, could you say that just once so we have a SOLJAN: Ivo Soljan O’NEIL: Alright. SOLJAN: OK. O’NEIL: So, could you give us, like, a basic biography; where you are from, how you got to West Michigan? SOLJAN: Yeah. Born about 85 years ago.{laughter} No. Born about sixty four, right now, an old guy. Came here to Grand Valley in 1991. So it’s been twenty years now. But I was in connection with Grand Valley even earlier than that because my university in Europe where I taught, and Grand Valley used to have a very fruitful exchange program. It was the University of Sarajevo in former Yugoslavia, in Bosnia. And it was established as one, probably the first exchange program between Grand Valley and some other university overseas. And in ‘75, 1975. So I participated in a number of activities the symposia every second year, either at Grand Valley or over there in Europe, and also there was an exchange of students here. So I was really quite engaged in that, so when there was a war which was kind of a serious war I needed a place to continue my life, and applied, and was invited to come here, and to be interviewed. {Iaughs} Page 1 �O’NEIL: {laughs} Yes. You mentioned overseas. Could you give us, like, a country? SOLJAN: The country, as I mentioned, the country is formerly Yugoslavia, which doesn’t exist any longer. It fell apart during that war because it was it was an artificially created country. Like Czechoslovakia, or a number of- or even the Soviet Union if you ward. it consisted of six republics, like six states in the United States. And, so it was a unified country, but it didn’t really function quite well. and there were very strong movements within the country to kind of, coming from different sides, to get independent and kind of break that united kind of somewhat like the American CMI War, and perhaps even in terms of if you compare that in terms of the number of the dead and the victims it’s pretty comparable. In Yugoslavia, about 200,000 people died and in America, about 600,000, but, if you compare the populations, it would be pretty much the same ratio. So that’s the country. And the city, as, I mentioned the city that I lived in, I wasn’t born there, but I taught there for 20 years, is the city of Sarajevo, which is often it often used to be mentioned at least when you were all toddlers because when the war was there the city was besieged for three and half years. It was really in very, very bad shape. A lot of people died. — O’NEIL: Logan, do you want toKNOPER: Well I mean we can just start little bit about the city you were born in and about your childhood over there, growing up. What was that like? SOLJAN: Mm-hm. Yeah. I was- I’m sorry I have a lot of stuff upstairs, but I couldn’t really prepare- The city I was born in is, it’s kind of a funny name in English, it’s called “Split”. but it’s not really Split, though I occasionally joke that I’m a Split personality. {laughs} But the thing is that it’s a Mediterranean city on the coast of thethe sea that is part of the Mediterranean and that sea is known as the Adriatic, Adriatic Sea. That’s the sea which is probably somewhat bigger than Lake Michigan. And that’s the sea where Venice is so that particular part. I was born there, virtually with my feet, you might say, in the sea. My father was a marine biologist. He led a significant marine biology institute there. So my first ten years of my life were really just- kind of swimming if you want. KNOPER: Yeah. SOLJAN: Yeah. For some reason, we moved to Sarajevo, which is inland, but it’s not very far inland. It’s probably about three hours drive. O’NEIL: Okone of the big buzzwords of the assignment: Identity. Is there any, like, specific things that you can think of about how moving to West Michigan has shaped your identity? SOLJAN: Yeah O’NEIL: I mean, your sense of humor seems very- relatable. {laughs} SOLJAN: {laughs} Thank you. Well, things, any change is a change, and initially it wasn’t easy because we, in that kind of panic, and it wasn’t just panic, it was actually well calculated. We went to holidays, basically, trying, hoping that that war would finally be stopped by the European powers in America, but it wasn’t completely for four years. So that, we basically left everything. All of our possessions, our Page 2 �assets- home, just name it. Our library, all our investments in the retirement funds and so on, just was wiped away. So, west Michigan, or rather Grand Valley I should say, has always been a nice place to us. Before coming here permenantly as a (?) scholar I spent a year in California, then a year here, and I was always very friendly with a lot of people around here among the administration and the professors. I taught english, in fact, in ‘89 and ‘90. I was very friendly with President Lubbers. I don’t know whether the name at all, but he used to be- he was our first president- oh, actually the second, but I mean the first, in that he was 32 years on the helm of Grand Valley. So it’s- in many ways it’s been a soft landing and it’s been a soft landing also becauseboth my wife and I are in English studies, so english really wasn’t a problem for us. it’s not like you find yourself suddenly on Mars Something wenot only we could – I mean, because of our qualifications would could actually teach (laughs) American students how to speak proper english. ALL: (laugh) SOLJAN: So our english- our english used to be prominently British english. And some of that is still probably noticeable in my pronunciation, but I’ve been teaching for twenty years, so it’s been lost. Our children also spoke english and they liked it immediately It was fine. We knew- it was it wasn’t like falling from the moon. We lived in California one year before that and then Grand Valley another year. Then we went back home for just one and a half year. there were significant political things that were happening there we wanted to participate in that, and, it was realized that it was going to be much more painful than we expected. So we came here and Grand Valley, - from our first, we lived in Grand Haven. And it’s a great place too. It’s a small city, or rather “tn-city” as they call it. And found plenty of friends, very manageable. We lived- all our lives we’ve lived in big cities. I mean, Sarajevo is half a million or more than that and in other in London, in- just name it- but we like the- especially now when the children have gone. they got married and have families, so it’s easier. It’s kind of nice to live a rather simple life. If we need entertainment, it’s mostly in terms of music, opera, stuff like that. Or lectures. This area offers you plenty. It’s just amazing how much you have here. The colleges, there’s Aquinas and there’s Calvin and there’s Hope and there’s Grand Valley, you just, - plenty. So we don’t miss that, I mean that is something that is plentiful here and we enjoy that. There are plenty of opportunities. KNOPER: You mentioned you were, your dad was a marine biologist and you loved the water and stuff, so Grand Haven do you—? SOLJAN: -Oh yeah! Oh yeah! We often actually refer to the lake as “the sea.” “Oh, look at the sea today.” It’s kind of automatic. Oh yeah, it’s lovely actually We just like it, the- well, what we miss in fact is thekind of this smell of the salty sea. Otherwise it’s just lovely. Yeah, we enjoyed it. O’NEIL: You mentioned a couple kids? maybe — SOLJAN: Yeah. There are a couple kids, in fact well, they will be kids forever. (laughs) But the son isthirty, thirty one, and my daughter is thirty six. he lives in New York and he completed his studies here. It was half price. So why not? (laughs) ALL: (laugh) Page 3 �SOLJAN: He studied- he studied English and Spanish and ended up in film industry. he is really a smart guy and he elbowed his way into the film world. He is a producer in New York and kind of makes a big buck. He enjoys- his wife is fine. They have a little kid, little Allegra, who is a year and a llttle bit more now. Now the daughter is in the Hague and she is a very smart woman. She is a lawyer by profession. And she works for this international court for war crimes, in the Hague in the Netherlands. Her husband is Dutch too. And so, they have one kid, they have a little- little girl, little Nora and they are expecting a second one in May. So things are- they are well placed. They seem to be happy in their lives. But of course, kids are kids, as all too well. (laughs) O’NEIL: Just little details: were they born here or—? SOLJAN: No, no. No, we came here- I was nearly, I was forty three, four, something like that. They werethe son was eleven when we came here to stay. Although they were, as I mentioned, we were here before so when he first visited he was eight. But he was eleven when we came to stay and the and the daughter--. They had five years difference, so she was, well, sixteen. So she completed the final year of the senior year of high school here then went and did her studies at Massachusetts at a rather small college and went to NYU, New York University, to complete her legal studies. O’NEIL: Ok, so we’re going to bounce around a bit here SOLJAN: By the way I’ve never been on drugs. ALL: (laugh) SOLJAN: -for the record. KNOPER: Oh well that question came later- (laughs) SOLJAN: I’m very healthy. O’NEIL: Have you lived anywhere else in the United States? I’m sorry if I missed that detail earlier. SOLJAN: Well I did mention it earlier- We lived in Irvine, California, which is kind of a broader, metropolitan L.A. and we lived there for a year. I was a Fuibright scholar doing my post-doctoral work. that was about twenty two years ago. I enjoyed that very much, that was very nice. But otherwise, no, no, we didn’t really. We kind of stuck here. I was traveling a lot all over America because I worked. I used to work during the summers for the US State Department and they- the assignment would usually be to take the European delegations for three week visits to America. So in that capacity, I was contracted by the State department probably for about, at least thirty five states. I was going all over America. I haven’t seen Hawaii. I haven’t seen Alaska, but otherwise, — O’NEIL: Is there anything you noticed about the people in those areas of the country? Like, the way they treat you or other people around them? SOLJAN: Mmhm. Oh well Americans are very, very hospitable I must say that Well, I must in other parts of the world too We often hear about the English being cold and reserved We lived in England for four years all together, off and on. the English can be {hospitable} also— it’s just a question of they don’t hug Page 4 �so much, like we in America. They tend to be kind of private and they have a little suspicion if you hug them too much. ALL: (laugh) SOLJAN: But otherwise, no. we know other nationalities. We also spent time in Italy, and we have friends in France and so on. So, people are- you find good people and friendly people everywhere. And you find also, I don’t know, I wouldn’t call them “bad” people but, the people you wouldn’t gladly spend time with. You find them everywhere. O’NEIL: The less nice. SOLJAN: Mmhm. O’NEIL: Ok, continuing with the civil rights topic, like how people treat each other- has anyone, like you or your family been — SOLJAN: Mmhm. — Welt, no. We’ve never really— As a matter of fact we’ve been treated always as if we were special. The one thing was the compassion, the fact that they knew that we lost everything and were the victims of the war in that sense. So they extended help, “Whatever you need..” and so on. Always only positive. But then of course, I think it’s always mutual. We’ve always treated people very very nicely. And I think it’s, it’s a very simple rule it’s kind of the “the rule of thumb” as they call it. “You treat me well, I’ll treat you well.” There are of course, there are segments of any population and you see, we had this civil war which was- terrible, where some of my— very close friends ted out to be war criminals. Kind of— participating in—slaughters and what not. So you never know. Things happen in life. But to us, it’s been a— a very good experience. I might even say blessing. our children had a- stable place to continue their life. We enjoyed- our life back home was very good. I had very good- I worked at the university and taught there for about twenty years and was highly respected. My wife, she was a high school teacher and then editor later on in a publishing house. So, it was a good life. But then suddenly, everything just caved in. So you change everything. You adapt. The most important thing is to be able to adapt. Accept what life brings you. O’NEIL: Were there any people in particular that affected your thinking about- particularly ethnicities or genders or religions? SOLJAN: I wouldn’t say so. we as a family are catholics and of course in America the church life is - in contrast to many, MOST, of the rest of the world. It is one of the hubs where people, I mean very often you have the impression that it’s more of a- club. You cannot feel that so much because you live here but if you go to other countries, there’s much more indifference, Americans on the whole are very religious. At least they say, or at least they think they are. But for those who go regularly and attend churches it’s often really—companionship, more- I don’t know. I don’t want to be nasty, but sometimes it’s not really something profoundly spiritual at it is just getting together, having donuts and coffee. Well, there’s nothing wrong with that! After all, the relationship, the companionship is religion. get together and be together and help each other. So no. I must say-well, I’ve come across bigotry, there’s no doubt. Not against me, but I’ve heard where people are speaking about the blacks very very, - in a Page 5 �way that you don’t like to hear. Or others it’s not just blacks, it’s- but then, these are the people that, you normally wouldn’t associate yourself with anyway. And you’ll keep them at arm’s distance. So there is, sadly there is still- you know and that’s part of my— You asked me, or whoever did, in my Anthropology class—, I have a pretty big political experience. I participated in a number of political events here in America, and back home. One of them was peace negotiations in Dayton, Ohio. You weren’t born, or were little kids so you don’t remember that. It was November of ‘95, which actually ended that war in the Balkans. It was a very exciting thing to see all these, kind of, dignitaries . And I was invited by President Clinton actually to go and accompany him to go to Bosnia on Air Force One to visit the troops So then, you find wonderful people and of course you find people who would definitely need some— re education. Especially in the sense of the feelings of superiority, but you have that in other countries too. The thing that particularly hurts me, because I’m an American, we got American, nationality in 2001 so it’s been ten years now, is that especially now the treatment of the people of the middle east. The Muslims and the— there is this rather unjustified sense of superiority “These are the primitive guys that have to give us our oil, because that’s our oil. If not we’ll kick some butts.” ALL: (laugh) SOLJAN: So, this whole ideal - and that’s very often actually articulated as “ugly American” or “arrogant American”. There is that. You find that also that some people I’ve met that belong to the militia the Michigan Militia. There is a lot of bigotry there. I won’t say that, at least publicly they’re not Ku Klux Klan, but a lot of their thinking is along these lines. KNOPER: So what would you say in the big scope the “American view” of other cultures or other countries versus your country’s, or Yugoslavia’s view, or the world view? How would you compare their views? SOLJAN: Well, again I must say, sadly, because America is such a huge country, and such a huge potential economic and whatnot, Americans are very ignorant. That’s one thing that, well, you are privileged because you come to college and suddenly your eyes open. But it’s just —what’s Jay Leno’s—, there’s a part of the program he does every several weeks where he—”Jaywalking” or something like that, where he confronts these youngsters and asks them “What is the capital of America?” “Puerto Rico!”, these guys know nothing! No history. Sadly, it’s the consequence that these subjects are being removed. “Oh, do we need that? We’re a big country. We’re so important.”, but it really, —it closes your horizons, and that’s not good. I just, right now, an hour ago, or two hours ago— there was a lecture in Kirkhof center. There was a guy from one of the universities in Pennsylvania talking about American politics and policies in the Middle East. And it’s defeating to see that most Americans don’t even know, after ten years of the war in Iraq, “Where’s Iraq?”, and stuff like that. Not interested!, American population, like so many others, and I see that actually being spread all over the world, that’s the very strong, American consumerism. People are primarily consumers. Buy, buy, buy. And in a number of homes you don’t have books at all. A book is a rarity. There are televisions perhaps in every—there’s a plasma in every room, and then there are eight hundred channels but seven hundred ninety-nine are nothing something like that. So there’s a huge offer on the market, but very little- very little selectivity. That should be and that could be. I know that from the education of my kids and I Assume you are in the same thing. If you try and you get good direction from your professors and the surroundings where you are, America can Page 6 �easily produce brilliant kids, brilliant experts. But a lot of that is basically just buy your car, buy your home, go and spend some time—a lot of time in casinos and go to Las Vegas, that kind of stuff. In order, politically speaking, in order actually to keep social unrest controlled—because there is a lot of reason for unrest—there is a huge difference in income that’s a problem right now, so huge it’s just unbelievable. In order to keep people peaceful, give them things to buy! That’s exactly what President Bush after 9/11 just said, “Oh,”, “go out and buy! Go out! Shop!” (pause) SOLJAN: Anything else guys? O’NEIL: I have one little thing SOLJAN: A couple of jokes from Bosnia? ALL: (laugh) O’NEIL: If you want, go ahead! (laughs) You’re clearly very well-read, being an english professor and knowing Shakespeare and everything, is there any particular work of literature or art or a book or a movie that influenced your perception of people? SOLJAN: Yeah, well all literature is about people, so there’s no doubt about that, even when you cannot project it and very often that (?) it’s always about people. And even if they have these horns, different (?) on their heads and what not, three heads and what not, they’re people, because human psyche is the same otherwise we wouldn’t understand. these creatures that are just a blob of energy, even they love or hate or something. but literature in general is just a—wonderful tool of understanding, learning and learning about your life and the life of those around you, but Hamlet is of course one of my favorites but there are so many others. The list is just huge. O’NEIL: This is just my personal curiosity, but you said you were on Air Force One? SOLJAN: No, I was invited to go there; I had to miss it, because I had separate problems here at Grand Valley at that time so I was really engaged deeply in resolving that first. But it was I got the White House invitation that said will you go with the President and work and be his interpreter over there, which is kind of a very, very wonderful I just said that after “How stupid of me. I should have done that, and remain in the White house! No, but, I’m here in Grand Valley. O’NEIL: Well I’m glad you stayed. (Laughs) Another little curiosity—how many languages do you speak? SOLJAN: Well, my native tongue is known as—its a Slav language like Polish or like Russian. It’s called Croatian. O’NEIL: Okay! SOLJAN: —l can tell you a little bit here, so you have that there for curiosity. . (Speaking in Croatian) “What would you like me to tell you? If you want I can tell you all sorts of things.” Thats what I said. Now, that’s Croatian. Then English—English of course—English is not my mother tongue, but I’m pretty Page 7 �fluent in English. And I speak Italian. Can read Spanish--I can pretty much atone with French. it’s pretty much a common thing with intellectuals in Europe. They speak— they’re small countries, so you need -it’s not like it is in America where you travel two days and you’re still in America. Ya, or three days even, if you go by car. Over there you can—there you can go through three or four countries and with different languages. That’s what I mean. KNOPER: Yeah I know, like my friend from—he’s in Czech Republic, and I mean all in Europe they like teach English. They have English along with their other stuff. SOLJAN: Oh I know. Absolutely. When I started, it was pretty new there at that time, because it was not so long after the second world war, but we started when I was like ten years old—and it was full eight years there. So after that—well even so some of them would never—, it just depends on how attentive you are, and you must pay attention or otherwise it doesn’t go into your head by itself. But yeah, that’s it. And then normally you just pick up a couple of others at least so much that you can make yourself understood and can read popular things and so on. O’NEIL: do we have most of our—at least all of— KNOPER: Yeah we pretty much got through everything. I mean we covered the views—we can talk about the past I guess, but — SOLJAN: I got something of my past; I never killed anyone—but I might! (All laughs) KNOPER: oh. (Laughs) Hopefully no one in this room! O’NEIL: Yeah! (Laughs) KNOPER: So like what about your—you mentioned you came over here at age forty-something— SOLJAN: Forty-three, yes. KNOPER: Forty-three. What kind of like—in your teens—what kind of things were you like going— were you interested in. Did you go to school at Grand Valley also? SOLJAN: No. You mean myself? KNOPER: Yeah, like in college and all that stuff. SOLJAN: Oh no! No, no. I got my education in Europe. So I completed my—I got my higher degrees in England. So I lived in England. And in a sense—and of course England is quite different from America, but America is much more unified so to speak—i mean McDonald’s everywhere Taco Bell everywhere, and four kinds of gasoline everywhere. But no I came here, as I say after being really rather thoroughly familiar with American way of life and American culture and American history, that’s another thing that I often find frustrating here when I ask my students about American history. O’NEIL: A bunch of blank stares— Page 8 �SOLJAN: Yeah. My usual joke is “Was it before Vietnam or after Vietnam?” Something that happened like three-hundred years ago. So as I say, the only psychological shock was the feeling that you lost your country, that you’ve lost all the things you’ve been building through through twenty-five, thirty years— and that you have to start from—even though we’ve been many places in the world, it’s kind of tough initially. You have to accommodate yourself and say well that’s it now so it’s being here. And we didn’t come, —typically people come to America for economic reasons. It’s kind of immigrants who--as they like to say here, dream their American dream or something—fulfilling their American dream. No it wasn’t our case, our case was to—as we couldn’t ret—I mean the war was just raging over there. We couldn’t go back. It was basically starting life somewhere you could start it. It wasn’t economic stuff. KNOPER: Was there ever—did you ever like think of going somewhere in Europe at that time? SOLJAN: Well, that was a possibility. We had some good friends, American diplomats. And before thinking of going here, he said there is a possibility you can actually—he worked as an American diplomat in Northern Germany; he said their American base is here—he said you can just kind of start from. But, I contacted Grand Valley, and they just said pack up and come here immediately —and that’s it. O’NEIL: Was the fact that Grand Valley offered you a position something that influenced you to become a professor— SOLJAN: Well no, as I said I was a professor for twenty years before that back home, so I’ve been teaching for forty years—more than forty years. I had this—I was primarily thinking, because I have a major in violin too and music—and I was thinking to myself as a music performer and violinist, at certain point there are these branching roads, and you have to choose, you cannot take both—and there was this good opportunity, and even someone from the university of Sarajevo told me, Why don’t you complete your graduate studies and join us?”, it’s a chance like so many things in life—you start—that’s one good thing with studies- -you said you were still undecided, it doesn’t matter. You can always change as I told you. My son completed English and Spanish and you could say that doesn’t really lead him to a producer in film industry, but that’s where he ended up and he’s extremely happy. that’s what he considers—you can learn all the time. That’s the point. And if you’re willing to learn the roads are open. KNOPER: Would you say Americans have more opportunity than maybe you had early in your life like college? Or is it just like now a days— SOLJAN: Yes and no. In the sense that even here—I don’t know we call something here complaints that not enough American youth go to—, many of them are dropouts even in high school, and many of them don’t complete their studies. So I’m wondering--there’s no doubt that the American facilities or the American universities—the huge difference between the American universities and European universities—generally speaking European universities- -that you pay here. It used to be—I don’t know whether it’s going to change under American influence, but in other words, universities here are business proposition. You pay—what you call that? KNOPER: Tuition. Page 9 �SOLJAN: Tuition, right. and it grows and grows and grows and without tuition the univeisities wouldn’t exist. And over there, in most countries it used to be free university—you wouldn’t have to pay. Now whether that’s good or not, I don’t know. I got very good education there, but I must say the high school also, I think, was much more concentrated on important things—that’s what I say the sense of history and geography is also something we immediately recognize and know about that. Now whether that’s the ultimate thing in your life, I don’t know it doesn’t have to be. There are differences, and again, I’m not someone who—back home I also had a very developed cultural life, intellectual life, so I had no problems, moving anywhere. For someone who actually came here—and I think that’s the majority of people who come from other countries—they usually move to America in order to make some money and to start a new life, economic life. And of course for them it’s difficult. Number one, the language barrier, number two all these customs they don’t really know and they have to get used to them. It’s difficult to say I never really systematically thought about that. (Pause) KNOPER: Anything else? SOLJAN: You fed up with me? O’NEIL: No, I could just ask you questions for hours, but in terms of the assignment I think we— SOLJAN: Good, wonderful. Well if you want to add something I haven’t said, please do. No problem. Only let it not be dangerous. The Italians have a nice saying, they say, “(speaking in Italian). If it is not true it’s well found.” KNOPER: Exactly! SOLJAN: Okay guys! Thank you very much. All the best. And have A’s. Four A’s! KNOPER: Hopefully. END OF INTERVIEW Page 10 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4a68ce5b8a81d860dc370e1cab3e2318.mp3 b2b05271d1182746fb7b82022eff8eb3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Soljan_Ivo Title A name given to the resource Ivo Soljan audio interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Soljan, Ivo Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Knoper, Logan Hall, Alyssa O'Neil, Tim Jackson, Tierra Description An account of the resource Ivo Soljan compares and contrasts the different countries that he has lived in. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-23 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/94599a5c1500f05223ff9ddca2dc4845.pdf c7a8e305c0b04edab163e0a90eca2014 PDF Text Text Speaking Out Western Michigan’s Civil Rights Histories Grand Valley State University Special Collections Interviewee: Colette Seguin Beighley Interviewers: John Deork, Kaylee Niemiec, Justin Vanportfliet and Leah Anderson. Supervising Faculty: Melanie Shell-Weiss Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/16/2012 Biography and Description Colette Seguin Beighley was born in Oakland, California. She attended California State University, Haworth. She is a liscensed counsoler in California and Michigan. She discusses her activism with the Grand Valley State University LGBT Resource Center. Transcript VANPORTFLIET: Ok, why don’t we go around and say our names of the group first. I’m John Deork, Kaylee Niemiec, Justin Vanportfliet, and Leah Anderson. Ok so the date today is March 16th its 12 o’clock noon, at Grand Valley State University, in Allendale, in Michigan. were here today to talk about the subject of Civil rights here in West Michigan. Can you please state your name for the recorder? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Colette Seguin Beighley VANPORTFLIET: Thank you, Ok so where you born? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: I was born in Oakland, California. VANPORTFLIET: Ok, and then so what was life like, Life growing up in California. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well let’s see, I was born in the projects, which people are usually surprised about. I think that when you’re in such a privileged spot like the university people always think that you come from that type of space, but I did not. I had the great opportunity of being in the bay area during a time in which there was so much civil rights work going on. It started with the free speech movement at Berkley, and then it went to the Civil rights movement, the women’s movement, Indians of all tribes, occupy Alcatraz, the gay rights movement, all that was happening in that space that I grew up in, so that was very influential. VANPORTFLIET: O yea I bet, so did you go to college? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yes, Page 1 �VANPORTFLIET: Ok where did you go? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: I went to California State University, Haworth. VANPORTFLIET: Ok, so what was life like there? Like what was the kind of atmosphere at the college because you already referenced some of the big civil rights movements going on there, so what kind of atmosphere like with a bunch of that kinda going on? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yea there was a lot happening in Central America, and there was a lot happening with apartheid in South Africa during that time, so a lot of that stuff was really on the radar, but that particular campus was not as much of an activist campus as Berkley was. but still we had education around those issues and they were on the radar. VANPORTFLIET: Did you have any personal involvement during your college years? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: In college? VANPORTFLIET: Yeah. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: No not really, when I was in high school I was involved in a few things against nuclear power plants, but that was about it. VANPORTFLIET: Ok and after college, what was your life kinda like, just a quick background? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well I got a masters degree in counseling and I am a licensed marriage and family therapist in both California and Michigan. So I had 25 years of private practice experience before I started this new chapter of my life, so that was very much what I did. I did a lot of advocating for youth in particular; I worked with beyond control youth, run away youth, homeless youth. And so I had some experience with that and those were all great experiences that lead me to this point. And I think that having a degree in counseling is really great preparation for doing student services work. VANPORTFLIET: Right, so you already referenced your daughter, who I know, but what is your family like? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: What is my family like? Hahaha well I have some great kids, I have 2 stepsons from my former marriage, and they both live in Grand Haven. One of them is married to my daughter in law of course, who is a very good friend of mine. The other one just got engaged, and then I have a biological son Ari who is currently living in Amherst, Massachusetts, and then my daughter Chloe who is a junior here and is just a Princess after three boys. VANPORTFLIET: Ok, so does anyone else have any questions before I keep going? NIEMIEC: I was just wondering, when you were growing up like with your family, what was your family like when you were a child, were you very religious, were your parents strict at all? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well let’s see, my mom had been married before so there were two siblings but they didn’t grow up with me they lived with their dad, so I was really an only child. I remember when we were living in the projects and it was really rough, what’s always below the surface is your safety. We Page 2 �moved out of there when I was eight years old, but that’s definitely that way that I learned to navigate the world. And I remember being really afraid, like terrified, you know a couple of bad things happened so that was kinda a rough way to enter the world. But my mom was super, super, super loving and supportive and my dad was fairly absent, alcoholic. That’s probably too much information hahaha. Then when I was eight we moved to a suburb of the east bay, Dublin. And it was, it went from a very diverse living situation to really an all white neighborhood. And I went to elementary, middle school, and high school in that environment. It was fine but you know as I really appreciate diversity, so I was kind of sad that I lost that but my family valued diversity and always looked at people who were different them ourselves as an opportunity to step back and learn more about the world. I think they did some things wrong, I can remember some things that were probably pretty offensive to especially African American people, but it was not, it was just out of their own ignorance. But we weren’t even talking about things like White privilege at the time so people would step all over their whiteness without even knowing it. But we had friends who were from the deaf community; we had friends that were from the gay and lesbian community. And every time my parent would prepare me for ‘were going to meet this family and this is what their like, you may have questions and we will talk about it afterwards’, really open in that way. And I was raised catholic, but I won’t say that it was a very religious family, my parents, because my mom was divorced before my mom could never really become catholic but they had this idea that, that is what they should raise me as. I went to church with a lot of different family, and did first communion and catechism and all that. It provides a sort of structure well your growing up so I appreciated that. VANPORTFLIET: So what kind of drew you to initially counseling, you said you graduated with a masters in family counseling, what initially drew you to that? Was it your diversity in your childhood? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: No, no my family is very crazy hahaha and I just wanted to figure out, what the heck happened here? And how can I possibly go on and create a healthy family. And I cant do that unless I know, how do you do a healthy family and what the hell happened here? And that was really it, in fact I even went on to a year of my PHD program and then I sort of came to terms, actually trough my work there that I was kinda done. I just wanted to figure out a few things and I had figured it out. Now I wished I had finished hahaha just my desire to get into counseling was just to figure out the world, to get some of what I didn’t get growing up. A skill set to go out. VANPORTFLIET: So how long did you do the counseling? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: For about 25 years. VANPORTFLIET: Wow, so was that in California? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: No I was in California for only about 3 years, the rest was in Michigan. VANPORTFLIET: So you moved to Michigan for your Job? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Nope, I moved to Michigan because my then husband’s family was from Michigan and we thought it would be a good environment to raise kids because the cousins were here. And it is a good place to raise kids, unless one of your kids turns out to be gay then maybe not so much, which we found out. Page 3 �VANPORTFLIET: So you said Ari, who is gay, who I know. He is actually a good friend, I am sad he moved away, but what was it like raising Ari or maybe you can broaden the spectrum a little bit like raising a gay or lesbian son in west Michigan? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Ari was really set apart from all the other kids because he was profoundly gifted. He got into a Johns Hoppkins program when he was in 8th grade that was reserved for students in the United States for students who scored the top half of one percent in the nation. So that was really a challenge, it was always a challenge for him. To keep him stimulated, to have his needs meet, to keep him grounded. And that always made him different, from any of the other kids, different in the way he related; but he was always different from the other kids. He was extremely demonstrative and that worked till he was about 6 then his male relatives wanted him to man up a bit. He never really did, he’s just who he is. And I didn’t raise him thinking that he was gay, I raised him thinking that he was a unique individual who didn’t really fit, kinda a square peg in a round hole. But I do remember when he was maybe 2 and a half. I was sitting on his bedroom floor he was playing, playing dress up and he dressed up and he was like spinning around and he was working it. And I remember thinking, ‘oh this kid might be gay, I wonder if I’m going to be returning to this conversation in 10 years or so’ and then I put it out of my head. Until he was about 13 or 14. By the time he was about 14, he was really questioning and I was really questioning him too. Then he eventually came out when he was 16. VANPORTFLIET: From your perspective, what was that like for him? You said he was always so different, always set apart what was that like for him, like at school? Because at 16 that is such a rough time for everyone, having that kind of revelation and kind of life change. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: I think it was incredible rough, he was not getting along with his sister, and his sister is his best friend in the whole world! He was just irascible and when he did come out, we ended up doing this retreat together as a family. Six of us got on a plane and went to Santé Fe and did this. The experience coming out powerfully, and at this retreat like all retreats, you have to write a letter. And then they make you read the letter. VANPORTFLIET: Yeah. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: It lame but whatever. He read the letter and he read it to his dad and I. And he said, you know, mom and dad you are such good parents. And I’m thinking, okay there’s something; let’s cut to the chase here. . And then he said but there’s something I have to tell you. And then it was so tremendous moment. My adrenaline just shot to my head. And I remember just going through the rolodex like in split seconds of how did I screw up? How did I not protect him from getting hurt? And then he talked about how when he was in middle school, he had been……well a few boys had thought he was gay. And they targeted him. And they would wait for him in the stairwell of the school and beat him up every day. But they wouldn’t beat him on his face or on his arms, only on the lower body. But they would beat him until the point that he would vomit blood. And I hyperventilated when he said that. I never hyperventilated in my life, but it was just so awful. It was so awful to know that he had been going through that and we had no idea. And you know, two therapists as parents you’d think we would have a clue, but we didn’t have any idea. So I just felt so awful that he had to go through that alone. And it Page 4 �really it explained so much about how he was irascible during those years and just so difficult to live with. and also how he was so much freer and comfortable with himself after he came out. VANPORTFLIET: Right. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yeah. VANPORTFLIET: Do you guys have anything questions? (Looking at group) DEORK: Have you always had a good relationship with him? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yes. Not that I don’t drive him crazy. I do of course. But yes. (Laughter) ANDERSON: Do you think that has helped him in this experience with this? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: . I don’t know. I would think so but I’m the last person to…you should talk to him. Call him up. (Laughter) SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: ask him what he thinks. I’m sure at times it’s been annoying as how to have a mom that is so out there. You know. (Laughter) SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: It’s like, can you please tone it down a bit? You know. But he’s never said that. He’s always a big cheerleader too, so. VANPORTFLIET: . So, what is your title here at the college? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: I am director of the lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender resource center. LGBT resource center. VANPORTFLIET: Right. and then kind of take us through like what is your job description. Like, what kind of things do you do as the director of the LGBT center? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Okay well, let me tell you about the LGBT resource center then ill break it down. VANPORTFLIET: Yeah of course. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: So, our mission is to empower students to lead …if I didn’t have a cold. (Laughter) (Pause) Okay, to empower students to lead authentic lives to challenge gender and sexuality stereotypes and to work for social justice. So, we look to our center as serving 25,000 members of the community, not just the LGBTQ community. Because all of our students live in a world with gross inequality and part of their education needs to be coming to terms with their place in that world. Understanding what’s happening Page 5 �with marginalized communities. And then what, how does that fit with their lives and with what they are going to do. so we, we serve the entire student body and then specifically we serve LGBTQ students. So we have our Freshmen Queer Alliance which is for first year students and it really is to operate a safety net for them. A place to connect, many students don’t come out until they get to college when they can finally separate from their families of origin and trying a new identity. it’s a social group but we also take them on bus trips so that they can learn the bus system and go downtown a bit, and learn where the food places are on campus, and where resources are if they need help with writing or something like that. and then they do fun things like bowling and watch movies and that sort of things. So our Freshmen Queer Alliance is really to just give them a place to be here on campus. And then we also have our Pipeline Leadership Group which is for second year students and above. And that’s a yearlong leadership program that really focuses on advocacy and activism. And it is also open to our allies as well. This year we have our first ally student in the leadership group and it really has been a lot of fun. And then we have our LGBT ambassadors. And they help us out in many ways; whether it is at a social event, our ice cream social at the beginning of the year. They come in their rainbow, GVSU shirts. And look for those students who may be sitting alone or may be trying to find out, find a way to get connected. And they also go into classrooms and do presentations. For our allies and advocate training they tell their stories of coming out, and just wherever we need help our LGBT ambassadors are right there. We also have our monthly on-going LGBT conference, which looks at LGBT and leadership, gender, culture, race, spirituality, and one other thing. (Laughter) And that’s a monthly event that’s LIB100 approved and US201 approved. That really introduces LGBT issues and ideas on campus. We have our lavender graduation; this will be our sixth year. For lavender graduation, it is actually older than the center. This is the fourth year for the center. And it is a time to celebrate the scholastic achievements of our LBGT and ally students. And it is a lot of fun. It’s a big deal. So, we really, really put a lot of effort into lavender graduation. We also have open door discussions where students can come up with their own topic and do their own program in the center. And that is really fascinating to see what kind of things students come up with. We just had one on gay stereotypes. and what else do we do? Oh we have our change and training for social justice, which is semester long program that’s grant funded. And it looks at systems, intersecting systems, of oppression, racism sexism, homophobia, and how they are interdependent and need one another to survive. And we have a 1.0 and a 2.0. And so our students learn the framework in the 1.0 and then they really dig into strategies and tactics for activism in the second one. So, that’s really a very dynamic program. So just to give you, and then our allies and advocate training we do that for the Greek community and then we do it for the general community as well. So I’m not sure if I hit all of our programs but that the smorgasbord of what we do. VANPORTFLIET: That is a lot of involvement. ANDERSON: Yeah, that’s a lot. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yes. So then my role is to work with the students to develop that program that meets their needs. To really help cast a vision for the center. And to be involved in the greater LGBT Page 6 �community, to keep us tied to current events. So I’m on the board of our state wide Antiviolence and Advocacy Organization Equality Michigan. And I work with the national consourcion of LGBT resource professionals in higher education. And I go to the national gay and lesbian test force conference on creating change every year. And I present at conferences on specifically of expanding the circle which is LGBTQ’s studies and services in higher education. So it’s the only conference that’s really devoted specifically to the issues that we serve. And I’m presenting at two workshops this summer at that conference. So all of that helps me to have a broad sense of the movement. And being able to connect our students to what’s happening in the community and understand nationally. I just like the first week I was here when I was assistant director, I remember a student getting fired. And I remember him saying, “You can’t fire me. I have my rights.” That’s what he said, he was going to say it to the person who fired him. And no you can be fired for being gay in Michigan. There are no protections; there are absolutely no protections in Michigan. Sexual orientation and gender identity is not included in Elliot Larson’s Civil Rights Act. It’s not included in our hate crimes on law. We don’t have second parent adoption. We just recently, after ten years of work, finally passed an anti-bullying bill. But it’s completely toothless and ineffective. There were only two states in the nation left who hadn’t passed an anti-bullying bill and Michigan was one of them. We did it because we were ashamed into it, but it is completely not powerful. And then, our constitution rewritten inequality into our constitution by saying that marriage is between one man and one woman. So it’s rough here. And our students need to understand, yet I don’t want to paint a black picture of their future for them. But I really want to help them to build allies and collisions to go out and change the inequity that excess; not only for the LGBT community, but the immigrant community as a target. A huge islamophobia around the country now. So, all those issues are important and they all impact LGBT lives as well, because our community goes throughout. We have Muslim LGBT people; we have LGBT people who are immigrants. So all those issues are our issues as well. So back to being director. I do all those things and help the programming move forward, to cast division for the center, to keep connected with local state and national movement s. And then also to work within the university to move us forward in being more equitable. In the summer of 2008, we added gender identity and expression to our antidiscrimination policy. But yet, four years later, we do not have policies in place for a staff or faculty member who is looking to transition. So if somebody is identifying as transgender and wants to start transitioning, they want to see a policy in place. They don’t want to have to go into human resources and be the first person to do that. So the vice president of inclusion and equity, Gene Arnold, has formed the Gender Identity and Expression Committee. And I serve on that committee. And we are looking at policies throughout the university, whether it’s developing gender neutral locker room space. Creating health, or adding healthcare coverage that is trans inclusive. Working with banner, we’re going to be an experimental university to work with banner so that they can, students, can choose a preferred name, and not, if somebody is transitioning and they are going by Jane, but their banner says John and their professor outs them in class it’s public safety issue to them. You know? And it’s also so difficult for them to go to every single professor before class begins and tell the story and see if they can get you know they can get by in, and most of the time the professors want to do the right thing but certainly there have been professors who have refused to call them by their preferred name. So then when that happens we get involved, and also I’m on the university’s team against bias, so I’ve worked with bias incidents on campus along with other members of the team, so working with policy and our campus climate is really an important piece of the work we Page 7 �do cause we want all students to feel safe and we want to retain our students once they come here, all students, not just LGBT students but all students. That’s a very long answer. VANPORTFLIET: Aw, that’s okay. so how do you feel that Grand Valley is compared to other schools maybe in Michigan, cause it’s here in West Michigan thats traditionally very religious a religious part of the state, very conservative, so but my opinion I feel like with this center we’re making good steps toward being very proactive, but what’s your opinion? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well I think compared to other public universities we’re doing really well. We have a 4.5 out of 5 star rating on the campus LGBT friendly campus climate index, and that’s the highest any school has. At one point the University of Michigan had a 5, but they have moved down to a 4.5 because they have raised the bar a bit to meet the needs of transgender students – VANPORTFLIET: Mmhm SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: More thoroughly, and lets see there are 4 universities, one, two, three, four, five, lets see, maybe not, theres University of Michigan, MSU, Eastern, Tech, Grand Valley, all have 4.5 ratings, so we feel good about that but University of Michigan had the first LGBT resource center in the country but it was four decades before we got ours at Grand Valley. And that said only 7% of campuses in the United States have LGBT resource centers. So we are still ahead of the curve there. And with our implementation of gender neutral housing this past fall we’ve moved even further ahead because I think that after the loss of Tyler Clementi at Rutgers last fall, universities are understanding that they need to listen to the housing needs of their LGBT students more closely. And right after that tragedy Rutgers implemented gender neutral housing. So other universities want to be pro-active so that they are not responding to a negative event, but really doing you know, being ahead of that. so I think that Grand Valley has a long way to go, there are lots of ways we do not meet the needs of our LGBTQ students, faculty, and staff. But we have also come a long way, and we have a tremendous amount of support here, so, I give us high marks. VANPORTFLIET: So, what is, what is maybe the biggest thing here at Grand Valley that we could do to improve, like the, whats the next step that would be like huge in your opinion? For the LGBT center or for the women’s center anything like that? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: So like a wish list? VANPORTFLIET: Yeah! SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well a big wish list would be if I could wish away, I would say that I wish we would have a social justice center and our other centers were under it, including disabilities support services which is not under the brella right now, there, in a different unit, but, the purpose of the social justice center would be to not look at just one ‘ism’,not just look at racism, but look at sexism and to see, to educate our students about the dependency of these dynamics on one another to move forward. And also to, we have students who are mostly white and mostly come from at least a middle class background, so they come with lots of privilege and I would really love to educate the entire student body about that privilege so that they can look at other people more realistically. And also understand Page 8 �that with privilege comes responsibility. so that would be my big view. But then specifically for our center, bigger budget, more staff, *laughing* that’s my Christmas wish list. so that we could do all the things that we want to do. VANPORTFLIET: okay, so we talked about proposition 8 in our class, so how, it was passed and then overturned, and brought back, so how do you think Michigan did on that, I think, I think you already touched on, it just wasn’t there, it kinda dropped the ball, and what do you think, can happen to kind of help push that along, you know? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Mmhm, Well marriage equality certainly is, at the top of the list of items that the LGBT, what we call Gay Inc. which is the human rights campaign, and the national gay and lesbian task force what they are moving forward, and I have some problems with that, so I’ll say that and then I’ll go back to it, but as far as marriage, yes, Michigan was an epic fail. It passed, we passed a constitutional amendment to ban marriage equality in our state. I’m happy to say I didn’t vote for it even before I was so out. and I think there are over 30 states that have those kinds of constitutional amendments, but we are seeing state by state, it’s flipping, so that’s helpful. There are 8 states and the District Colombia right now that marriage equality, I just can’t wait for 2 more flip and I can say 20% of the states in the nation have marriage equality, so, and that doesn’t count states that allow civil unions, so and let me just clarify that that’s still separate but not equal because even our own household member benefits on our university, our unmarried partners get the same health coverage, but they don’t pay the same for it, because they have to pay for their coverage with post-tax dollars. Where as married couples pay with pre-tax dollars so they actually end up spending about 25% less if you’re married. So if Michigan were to flip marriage equality it would still be inequitable for gay and lesbian couples because at the federal level we have the defensive marriage act, which Obama currently is not enforcing, but it’s, thats a federal mandate, it’s not something that Grand Valley can control at all. The 1,138 benefits that come with marriage still do not, are not enjoyed by the LGBTQ community. Even in states where marriage equality has passed. VANPORTFLIET: Do you think that, that marriage equality, is like the nber one thing that we should be pushing for, like or, theres another issue we kind of touched on in class, with gays being able to adopt and having that two parent adoption, and that was, especially powerful for me because one of my friends has two lesbian Moms, and so I’m kinda close to that and we watched a video on it and the person who was kind of thrown into that situation, was totally against it and was very close-minded I thought. and they, they even showed her with different situations with kids and adoption centers and rundown with really no place to go and then they showed this happy family with two dads, and she was still like no, that’s not right. And so I was just wondering which is that the nber one, er like what’s the nber one thing that if you again had like a wish, that you would pass. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well, I mean realistically, as we did strategic planning for the state wide organization we did focus groups all around the state to see what constitutions wanted and they all wanted marriage equality. But that can’t be the first thing that you go for, especially in this state so getting the antibullying bill passed had to be the first thing, so we got that passed, and it was not as we liked it but, but we got it passed. and part of the reason that it did pass was because it served Michigan well not to be the leftover state that is not passing it. So, right now we’re working on our Elliot Larson civil rights act to Page 9 �see if we can expand that. And that will give immediate relief to families, and that will directly translate to the lived experience of LGBT people to have protections and housing and on the job. And for straight people as well because you can be fired for being perceived as being gay, right. So, so working on that so as far as second parent adoption will probably be next after that, because those are some of the things that people can relate to, research shows that the happiest healthiest kids grow up with two Moms. You know, what can you say, you have two Moms your doing pretty well, and research backs it up, so I think that on the road to marriage equality there are these other markers that can really impact quality of life for LGBT people are also more obtainable and that’s how we are working it in the state. Justin to group: Okay, and questions? NIEMIEC: Not really, it was more focused on like your son but I mean, we were talking about something different. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well, I am happy to go back to that. Do you have anything in particular. VANPORTFLIET: Yeah, go ahead and ask it! NIEMIEC: Okay I was just wondering when you said that he was bullied in school and like when he came out to you, did you feel you guys got closer or did he like kind of back away, or like went kind of went on with that, did your relationship grow? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yeah, I really feel, I don’t feel like we got closer, because he’s also you know 16 years old and a guy and was needing to be like separating from his Mom a bit too. I think we’ve always been close certainly he became closer with his sister and his sister-in-law who’s like a sister to him, yeah, but it didn’t impact our relationship negatively in any way. NIEMIEC: Okay, and like did your other, like your parents or like any other family members, did, how did they react, or did they see it all along, like, like how you did, did they see the signs, or, you know? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: That was a disaster... NIEMIEC: It was? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well my Mom had passed away a few years earlier, which was for me sort of a cosmic crisis like, like why isn’t she here? Because she would have just not missed a beat and she and Ari were just like this. but on the paternal side that family is very, very, very religious and so that’s their lens of seeing the world and they did not have any space for Ari being gay…Period. So, it was a difficult time. We actually wrote them a letter so that they could sort of process, not in the moment with us, but just sort of like reorganize and then come to us and have a conversation, and try to like do damage control a bit. And, we said we know you have this way of understanding it, but there is other information too, we really want to go on this journey with you duh-duh-duh-duh-dah. And I thought for sure that you know I was keeping the living room clean thinking that they were gonna be showing up to have the conversation. 8 months of silence. And then at the end of 8 months, Ari’s grandpa sent a letter that was so scathing. Saying that Ari’s being gay was the biggest disappointment of his entire life. And he copied everyone in the family. And so that just gave, opened the flood gates for the other people to Page 10 �send their own letters, and I got 7 page, single spaced, margin-less typed letters from the family saying that we had turned our children over to Satan, and that, you know all of this really extreme, extreme stuff. So, its pretty hard to heal from that. You know, it’s pretty hard to move forward from that. I feel like, and this is a mom genetic coding thing, I feel like I can never get passed that. That that was so hurtful and so unnecessary. That I just really can’t get passed that. But Ari is more generous, and he has a relationship with those family members now. you know he could not bring his partner to their house but I think some of them have even started asking him if he has a boyfriend. I know that his grandma has started asking him. His grandfather never will. So, you know it has been, 7 years now, so. VANPORTFLIET: It’s a work in progress… SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Yeah. NIEMIEC: Is there still tension between you and the… SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well I am divorced now (laughter). But you know between my in-laws, no. (She paused) I know that they still love Ari. And I know that in their worldview they were doing the best they can. I still think that it was unnecessary and hearts that will never heal so I just have a really hard time understanding why someone would put that thing in writing and then send it to everybody else. But I know also that they feel the same way about the work that I have done. That my being public about Ari’s coming out has injured them in the same ways. That they have felt like I have publicly shamed the family in doing that. So it depends on which lens you work through. There were times when I felt like I was losing my mind, that I would actually drive to Detroit to Triangle Foundation which was a State-wide organization at the time now it’s Equality Michigan. And just say, I know I am doing the right thing, but I’ve got nothing here. I’ve got no support. I just need to hear that I’m doing the right thing. Supporting my son, you know, how crazy is that. But yeah, I think I’m hopeful that the cousins, some of the cousins, some of the cousins that my children will be able to have relationships with them. Some of them they won’t I know because they also are really pulling this hard line. VANPORTFLIET: What do you think the big problem is between the religious community, and the LGBT center? Because, I am religious but I don’t see it so cut and dry as some other like obviously some of those people who wrote those letters. I don’t believe that at all. So what do you think? Do you think that they are exclusive? Like in some parts or like I believe that they don’t have to be, but what’s kinda your take on that. SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: I left out the part where my ex-husband was a minister and he lost his minister license because he supported Ari. But you know, I have spent a lot of time thinking about it. And I think that people build their self-esteem based on their religious beliefs that for a lot of people it’s a journey, like I said my journey out of a difficult situation was really education. To try to figure out, oh my, gosh, how does this work? But for some people its finding religion and building a whole identity around that. And that’s how they are okay in the world. So when you start to mess with that, it becomes a situation where there’s a lot at stake. And if you pull this brick out of the wall, that’s a big brick. Because if they are feeling that homosexuality is a sin, which is their bi-line you know. Then if you pull that brick out of the wall and they change that, what else do they have to question? That’s a lot of work and that’s scary. Page 11 �So I came to understand, this is my way that I made sense of it, is that Ari’s coming out, and then my being so vocal about inequality, created a lot on anxiety in people especially in who held these fundamental beliefs. And they wanted me to not make them anxious. And if I did not stop making them anxious, then there was a consequence to that. So I understand the anxiety and the organization of a personality. In that kind of way where there’s just a lot at stake, in their being okay. And I’m sure other people see it differently and disagree with me on that. VANPORTFLIET: Well we are almost done with the hour so is there one thing you wanna leave with, it could be about the LGBT community or something you think is a big problem that we still need to overcome, maybe something we haven’t touched on yet? SEGUIN BEIGHLEY: Well I talked about how I would love for all students to be able to have a chance to examine their own privilege and to be able to come to terms with that. So that they could understand how they could leverage that in the future to create change. And so, and that just reminds me of this quote by Anias Nin and it says, we see the world not as it is, but as we are. We see people not as they are but as we are. I think I probably just butchered that but the point being that we, unless we do work to make it explicit, we only see through our own lens. And it takes some discomfort and some really being intentional to be able to see things from a point of view from a marginalized community. Or from the very complex identities that some of our students carry, like being black, disabled, and lesbian. Being able to see through that lens. And I would hope that we would focus on giving students an opportunity to challenge themselves in that way. VANPORTFLIET: Well thank you very much. I know for me it’s been very enlightening and it’s been very nice to talk to you. END OF INTERVIEW Page 12 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a049e8e9144046e155a8d3276b6dc17e.mp3 bfa891d04f60aacf97e21248be6169d5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral Histories Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Personal narratives Oral histories African Americans--Personal narratives Gays--Personal narratives Lesbians--Personal narratives Bisexual people--Personal narratives Transgender people--Personal narratives Veterans--Personal narratives Women--Personal narratives People with disabilities--Personal narratives Muslims--United States--Personal narratives Hispanic Americans--Personal narratives Homophobia Discrimination Islamophobia Stereotypes (Social psychology)--Upper Penninsula (Mich.) Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history recordings documenting the history of civil rights and social justice advocacy in Western Michigan. The collection was created by faculty and students as a project of the LIB 201 (formerly US 201): "Diversity in the U.S." course from 2011-2012. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Grand Valley State University. Brooks College of Interdisciplinary Studies Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project (GV248-01) Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-05-02 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1930-2011 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context GV248-01_Seguin-Beighley_Colette Title A name given to the resource Colette Seguin Beighley audio interview and transcript, interview 2 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Seguin Beighley, Colette Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Deork, John Niemiec, Kaylee Vanportfliet, Justin Anderson, Leah Description An account of the resource Colette Seguin-Beighley was born in Oakland, California. She attended California State University, Haworth. She is a liscensed counsoler in California and Michigan. She discusses her activism with the Grand Valley State University LGBT Resource Center. Subject The topic of the resource Civil rights--Michigan--History Women--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/vocab/InC/1.0/">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Sound Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource audio/mp3 application/pdf Relation A related resource Speaking Out: Western Michigan Civil Rights Oral History Project Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-16 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives