775 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6f3ab5c2ab77ca63f201a8dce0cf9a59.pdf a68f11b155a762908cffa11458f4fc3c PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Jack Hart Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/1/2012 Biography and Description English Jack Hart was a primary assistant to Walter “Slim” Coleman during the Jiménez for Alderman Campaign of 1975. He continues to live and work in Chicago’s 46th Ward, primarily in the Uptown Community. In the 1970s, Hart was a member of the Intercommunal Survival Committee, a white group that supported the Black Panther Party. Members of the Committee worked with Cathy Archibald and Slim Coleman in the Lincoln Park Neighborhood Information Center. They also helped Mr. Jiménez to layout, publish, and finance one of the original Young Lords newspapers, and worked closely with the Young Lords and Mr. Jiménez until Helen Shiller was elected Alderman and Harold Washington became the first African American mayor of Chicago in 1983. Mr. Hart joined Mayor Washington’s Administration as Assistant Commissioner. During that time he was responsible for administering all of the City of Chicago’s rehabilitation loan programs. He also helped to formulate and launch the Chicago Housing partnership, Low Housing Tax Credit, and the City of Chicago’s heat receiver programs. Today he is a licensed real estate broker and Chief Financial Officer of Affordable Property Management Specialists in Chicago. �Spanish Jack Hart era el asistente de Walter “Slim” Coleman durante la campaña de Jiménez para Alderman en 1975. Señor Hart todavía vive y trabaja en el Distrito 46 de Chicago que ahora es una comunidad más nueva y elegante. En los 1907s Hart era un miembro de la Intercommunal Survival committee, un grupo de gente blanca que soportaba el Black Panther Party. Miembros de esa organización trabajaron con Cathy Archibald y Slim Coleman en la el Centro de Información del Vecindario en Lincoln Park. También ayudaron a Señor Jiménez hacer, publicar y financiar uno de los periódicos originales de los Young Lords, y trabajo cerca con Jiménez y los Young Lords hasta 1983 donde Helen Shiller fue elijada como Alderman y Harold Washington fue el primer Afroamericano alcalde de Chicago. Señor Hart junto con la administración de Alcalde Washington, como Asistente del Comisario. Durante este tiempo era responsable de administrar todos los programas de prestemos para la rehabilitación de la cuidad de Chicago. El también ayudo formular y lanchar la asociación de Chicago Housing, Low Housing Tax Credit, y el programa de calefacción de la cuidad de Chicago. Ahora es un agente de urbanización y también el principal Oficial de Financias en Affordable Property Management Specialists en Chicago. �Transcript JACK HART: All right, I’m Jack Hart. I currently am the director of the Affordable Property Management Specialists which is a property management company which specializes in affordable housing. We currently manage 390 apartments on the south side, west side, and this is our -- 4040 N. Sheridan Ruth Shriman House, that’s where we’re at now, that’s one of our projects on the north side. I’ve been managing basically affordable housing since 1988, 1989, somewhere around there. Prior to that, I was the assistant commissioner of housing in the Harold Washington administration. That was from 1984 until 1989. [00:01:00] And then prior to that, I was the director of the Heart of Uptown Coalition Intercommunal Survival Committee going back to 1970. JOSE JIMENEZ: Back to 1970? JH: Yeah. JJ: What is your connection with the Young Lords, basically? JH: Well, that goes way back. In 1970, somewhere thereabouts -- well, I first met you when you were underground or something in Milwaukee. I think you were someplace like that. You were on the lam from -- JJ: What does that mean, underground? JH: That means you were hiding out from the law. Well, 1970, I think, the Young Lords had taken over the church on Armitage and -- what was that street? Dayton. Yeah. I was with Slim Coleman, and Cathy Archibald, and then what 1 �was called the People’s Information [00:02:00] Center. We were like two blocks away from the church there. At that time, there was a coalition -JJ: And who were they connected to, the People’s Information center? JH: I was going to say the coalition existed, but your Black Panther Party, Fred Hampton had basically espoused the idea that white revolutionaries or poor white people who were sympathetic to the Black liberation struggle at that time should be organizing in their own communities. So the People’s Information Center was a group of white radicals, so to speak, who were affiliated with the Black Panther Party. And our job was to begin to organize amongst poor white people with a clear connection between the political struggle [00:03:00] in poor white areas and the liberation struggle of both Black people and other people of color. The Young Lords organization had been involved with Fred Hampton in various kind of rainbow coalitions we called it back then. One of the things was to-you had what we called survival programs. So the Young Lords basically took over this church and were going to set up a health clinic there and various other community programs. So there was a natural affiliation between us, the Black Panther Party, and the Young Lords organization. JJ: So you were organizing in Lincoln Park? JH: Yeah, the first thing we were doing was, again, urban renewal in Lincoln Park. Lincoln Park, at that time, was a fairly poor neighborhood [00:04:00] particularly around Armitage and Halsted was mostly Puerto Rican. You go a little bit further south, I forget the name of the street now, but that was also Blacks, it was Puerto -- it was a concentration of Puerto Rican and Black, and hillbillies mixed in there, 2 �poor white people. So the struggle which was being developed by the Young Lords and other people was to fight the city’s plans to gentrify these areas -- to remove the people, the poor people, and to replace them with a more affluent -- I mean that’s really what happened. So Lincoln Park, if you went there today, you try to tell someone that was a poor area, they’d think you were crazy. I mean I remember we had an apartment, just as an example, on Halsted in 19-- threebedroom apartment on [00:05:00] Halsted in 1970 rented for about $95 a month. Now that same apartment today would probably cost you $3,000 a month. (laughs) JJ: What were some of the things that the Information Center did? JH: Well, we did pretty much whatever the Black Panther Party did. I mean we distributed the Black Panther party newspaper all over the city in white areas. We had various -- like a free breakfast program, and various kinds of educational programs for children, we had a health clinic which we sponsored -- free health clinic. And then we had various other food and shoe giveaways and various things like that. JJ: When did you begin your involvement? Kind of going back a little bit. JH: My first contact was in January of [00:06:00] 1970 which was shortly after Fred Hampton had been murdered. I responded to an ad in the newspaper -- in a seed newspaper it was called which was kind of like an alternative newspaper. They were looking for people to join the Venceremos Brigade which was -- at that time, it was illegal to go Cuba, so they were taking groups of college-aged students to Cuba to participate in the Cuban revolution by assisting them with 3 �sugar cane cutting and things like that. So every year, they put together a group from around the country of 40, 50 people who would then go to Cuba for three months. So I signed up to go on this Venceremos Brigade. And one of the requirements was in the six months preceding the trip, [00:07:00] which was supposed to be in July, you were supposed to be involved in active community organizing. So the people who were sponsoring us were from the People’s Information Center, so I started working with them in January of 1970. And as it turned out, I was dropped from the trip at the last minute and I just ended up staying. (laughs) JJ: And the reason that you were dropped was -- JH: They had cut the quota, there was some immigration issues with the U.S. government. You couldn’t travel to Cuba, so what you had to do was go to Canada, and then you got a visa from Canada to Cuba. And apparently the Canadian government could only take so many people, and so there were 15 of us who were dropped from the trip at the last minute, and I was one of them. JJ: Why would you answer an ad to go to Cuba? I mean (inaudible). [00:08:00] What was your development in terms of (inaudible)? JH: Well, I mean I guess the original thing goes back to -- I was pretty much fresh out of high school, but what was going on in the country -- JJ: You were in Chicago? JH: Yeah. JJ: Okay, so you grew up in Chicago? 4 �JH: Yeah, and Schiller Park was actually -- I was in Chicago until I was about fifth, sixth grade, and then we moved out to the suburbs which was Schiller Park which was right next to the airport there. I went to East Leyden High School in Franklin Park. At that time, in the country, because of the -- you know, the civil rights movement was going on, the war in Vietnam was raging, so there was a big anti-war movement, and it was a fairly active time for people who were seeking social change. [00:09:00] When I was in high school, I was enlightened to the point that I was participating in civil rights in various other things from a standpoint of justice, I guess. So I don’t know. I was just looking for some way to make a difference. I was sort of bored with college, and it seemed like something to do. I mean the consciousness in the country at that time was fairly high because there was a draft, so everybody, when you were 18 years old, graduated from high school, had to face the reality of either avoiding the Army or fighting a war which most people at the time were opposed to. So I think that was sort of the impetus to get involved. And then just one thing sort of led to another. (laughs) JJ: [00:10:00] So you’ve had involvement -- this was around ’68, ’69? JH: ’70. JJ: Around ’70, okay. So this was after -- JH: Yeah, Fred Hampton was killed on December 4th of ’69. JJ: Did you go to that? 5 �JH: That’s what sort of led me to the People’s Information Center ’cause there was a connection there between them and the Black Panther Party. In the process, they said, “Well, these same people are sponsoring this trip to Cuba.” JJ: So how long did you stay in Lincoln Park then? And did you live in Lincoln Park at all? JH: Yeah, we lived in -- I mean I lived there in various apartments all around Lincoln Park. We had an apartment on Lincoln and Little, 2400 North Lincoln, and we had one on Halsted. We moved around [00:11:00] that area. JJ: This was you or the Information Center? JH: The office was at 2154 North Halsted, so the organization, it started out, there was like six or seven of us. And then as it developed, we ended up with 15, 20 hardcore people, and three or four of us would share an apartment. 1972 is when we had a big event at the Aragon Ballroom. It was called the “Campaign to End Police Brutality and Establish Community Control” where we gave away 3,000 bags of groceries at the Aragon Ballroom. The idea there was to introduce the Black Panther party to the people of Uptown. So around late ’71, early ’72 we started circulating a petition door to door in [00:12:00] Uptown. Some still in Lincoln Park, but Lincoln Park, at that time, was already beginning to be gentrified. Uptown was more of a concentration of poor white people. (break in audio) JJ: Okay, (inaudible). 6 �JH: Okay, so what was I saying? All right, so we had this thing at the Aragon, and idea was to -- we were trying to establish a base amongst poor white people in Uptown which was a really a concentration of -- JJ: What do you mean by base? Can you explain that? JH: A political base, a place where we could establish some kind of political power. So what we did was we had this what we called this “Campaign to End Police Brutality and Establish Community [00:13:00] Control.” And we went around circulating petitions, and then all the people who signed the petition from this area, we then went to visit them at their house, and we offered them a subscription to the Black Panther Party newspaper, A, and, B, we invited them to come to the Aragon Ballroom for this rally where they would receive a free bag of groceries and they could listen to the leaders of the Black Panther Party speak. So that was our first foray into Uptown. At that time, one of the theories here was we wanted to begin to get involved in the electoral process on some level. So the first effort was to defeat Edward Hanrahan who was the state’s attorney who was responsible for the murder of Fred Hampton. [00:14:00] So the idea was to begin to get people to vote. In Chicago, at the time, everybody voted for the Democratic machine, and they controlled everything primarily because they controlled city services. So if you wanted city services, then you had to support your precinct captain and then you would get city services. And so we were trying to change some of that so people could begin to vote their conscience instead of just following the party lines, so to speak. So the idea was to begin to identify the people who we could pull into our overall program. So we used this 7 �petition, and then the idea was to visit them, get them involved in our programs, register them to vote, and get them [00:15:00] to vote against the Democratic candidate for state’s attorney who was this Edward Hanrahan who was the one who had killed Fred Hampton. JJ: So you had the food drive and then you did a voter registration drive? JH: Right. JJ: Okay, and this was in ’72? JH: It’s hard to remember exact dates. All this sort of runs together. I mean we were involved in various kind of voter registration efforts over the years. Cha, when you ran for alderman, what year was that? JJ: We announced, I believe, at the end of ’73. JH: ’73, okay. So this was this sort of Edward Hanrahan, “Defeat the Butcher” it was called, I believe that was ’72 or ’73, somewhere around there. That campaign was actually successful particularly in the Black community where people [00:16:00] in droves voted against Ed Hanrahan. In fact, the state’s attorney who was elected was Bernard Carey who was a Republican and that was like the first time a Republican had been elected in a Cook-county wide office in like 25, 30 years. We saw that success, and that people -- if the issue was right, people could be moved to go against the entrenched powers, so to speak. We opened up an office at 1056 West Lawrence around 1973, May of ’73. And then we continued to establish programs in the Uptown area. I think at this time, and the Young Lords -- JJ: That’s the [00:17:00] Heart of Uptown Coalition? 8 �JH: Yeah, we went under various -- the parent organization, the cadre organization which was the hardcore people was called the Intercommunal Survival Committee. That was a committee of the Black Panther Party. We were answerable directly to the Black Panther Party. JJ: So you had a core group called the Intercommunal Survival Committee? JH: Right. JJ: And then this was more like a mass (inaudible)? JH: Yeah, the Heart of Uptown Coalition was sort of like our public arm where anybody who shared our political viewpoint, which was basically that the people should control their own communities, they could join the Heart of Uptown Coalition which was a much broader thing. The Intercommunal Survival Committee were really hardcore revolutionaries. We saw ourselves as hardcore revolutionaries. We [were involved in?] armed struggle [00:18:00] to overthrow the government. (laughter) And there was probably an inner core of maybe 20, 25 people who were actually -- we were run sort of like a military organization. I think at that time, Cha-Cha, who was the head of the Young Lords, had just gotten out of -- JJ: So you ran a military organization, but you actually were more focused on organizing? JH: Yeah. I mean it was the idea of -- JJ: Military discipline but you were focused on organizing. JH: Right, exactly. We weren’t really -- I mean I don’t want to get into all that other shit, but (laughter) -- 9 �JJ: (inaudible). JH: The focus, of course, was organizing the community for political power. The significance of the hardcore group was that these are really dedicated people that are involved in this 24 hours a day, [00:19:00] 7 days a week, and really believed in what they were doing. So I think at that time we still had visions of this rainbow coalition which was -- JJ: Because you actually were kind of living together and everything, right? JH: Yeah. Well, we would share apartments. I mean there’s like three or four of us in an apartment. JJ: So you were really tightly knit? JH: Yeah. I mean we were on call 24/7 and involved in various -- I mean there were other things going on just other than the political organizing. Like I said, we were involved in covert activities for the Black Panthers and various other things, but that’s a whole ’nother discussion. JJ: You went to the campaign? JH: So Cha-Cha of the Young Lords had just gotten out of jail, or just returned from being underground, or something like that. I don’t remember exactly what it was. So they announced [00:20:00] that they were re-establishing an office, I think it was on Wilton and Grace. And as part of that, Cha-Cha announced that he was going to run for alderman of the 46th Ward. Given the nature of the 46th Ward, I’m not sure we ever really believed that we were going to win this election because 60 percent of the ward are fairly affluent people on the lakefront. But the idea was to use the election as an organizing vehicle to A, tighten the 10 �coalition between Hispanics and poor white people, and continue to develop this model of trying to take over the political power of this particular area. One of the theories that Huey Newton had at the time -- who was head of the Black Panther Party -- was sort of modeled after Mao’s Long March. [00:21:00] In other words, the idea was to concentrate forces in particular areas. So like the 46th Ward in Uptown, this is an area if we could take over and be the political -- take over politically, that would give us a base to then move on into broader actions. And that was sort of the springboard, was the 46th Ward. And the first attempt was when we ran Cha-Cha for alderman. And that was one of the very active political campaigns where we would give a lot of actions related to drawing attention to urban renewal, and how the area’s being gentrified, and coalitions amongst various poor people -- Hispanics, and Whites, and Blacks, and Hispanics, and so on and so forth. So the idea was to continue to develop our programs [00:22:00] and get people involved in the political process. JJ: Continue to develop the health clinic and other programs that you had? JH: Yeah. Eventually we -- JJ: What programs did you have at that time? JH: Again, time sort of runs together here, but eventually we moved our office from Lawrence over to Wilson Avenue, and Wilson Avenue’s a real large facility. And there we had a legal aid clinic, we had -- help people get on public aid, welfare assistance, we had a health clinic, we had a prisoner visitation program, we had a magazine that was published on site there, Keep Strong Magazine, and I think we had -- well, all kinds of various food cooperatives. We used to have a 11 �monthly meeting at the hall for -- sort of replaced church, where people would come and we’d discuss the events of the day. [00:23:00] And sort of the springboard for various campaigns. The main thing going on in the city at the time was certain neighborhoods were being gentrified, and people were being moved out, and Uptown was one of them. And it was a fairly [insidious?] thing. There was a lot of arson, and places being burned down, and people being moved out, and them building new condos, and so on and so forth. JJ: I remember they had a -- 20/20 did a piece, arson for profit. So you’re saying there was a lot of arson, can you name -- JH: Well, for instance, Truman College is one example in Uptown. Truman College wasn’t there. That was all housing, same type of housing as the rest of Uptown which was -- and the buildings were one by one vacated. When the owners were resistant to selling to urban renewal, [00:24:00] they were burned down. They eventually took over the whole -- from Wilson to Sunnyside, Clifton to Magnolia, that whole area was wiped out and that’s where they built the college. And there was a lot of various low-income buildings that were closed down and either torn down or re-habed but not for the benefit of the people in the neighborhood, but a new class of people being moved in. JJ: So arson was one method to get rid of some of the buildings, but any other methods used by city? JH: You would get an owner who was in cahoots with them, and they wouldn’t fix up the building, and the city would come in and close it down. Or places would 12 �become so unlivable [00:25:00] that people would have to move. So eventually they cleared out the whole area. JJ: So now you got the Cha-Cha Jiménez campaign. How did you kind of restructure? How was that done? JH: Again, it was coalition -- JJ: I think that was a change, so I’m trying to see how it changed the group that you were working with (inaudible) Uptown? JH: We broadened our base, so to speak. In other words, the Heart of Uptown Coalition became a bigger organization, but we pulled in a lot of various affiliated groups. JJ: How did you do that? I mean what was the process? JH: Gee, I don’t know. (laughs) JJ: How did you directly do that? What (inaudible)? JH: Our main operation that we constantly were involved in was door to door. What we did was on a weekly basis [00:26:00] we would have a list of people who were either sympathetic or in the middle on every block in the community, and every week we would go to their house and we would bring them a Black Panther Party newspaper, and get into an argument with them over what was in there, A, and B, we would then ask them if they needed any kind of services, if they had any problems, if they had any legal problems, any other issues. And then the person who was (inaudible) would make what we called a follow-up list, and he would say, “These people need legal help,” and then we would send somebody else behind them to provide them with whatever legal -- hook them into the 13 �resources that we had developed to get them the assistance they needed. The idea being that people would then turn to us for assistance rather than the precinct captain, [00:27:00] that is you’re trying to change the focus of the politics. The same thing would be true for, say, if you had a [block club?], and they were interested in an issue on the block, say they needed a particular abandoned building torn down because it was a problem with drugs or something, then we would adopt that as one of our issues, and then pull all of the people who were involved in that into our umbrella group, and it just went on from that. I think the first thing was in ’73, ’74 when Cha-Cha ran for alderman, but I think he ended up getting 25 percent of the vote or something like that. And then I think in ’77, Helen Shiller -JJ: Thirty-eight percent. JH: Thirty-eight, okay. Thirty-eight percent. I don’t mean to sell you short. [00:28:00] (laughter) We had a good showing in our particular base areas, but if you took the ward as a whole, like I said, it was a more difficult proposition. I think we then ran again in ’77, Helen ran, lost that election. JJ: Helen Shiller. JH: Helen Shiller. Then in ’79 or something like that, we ran. We kept running in the elections, and, eventually -- and then as this particular movement which started in the 46th Ward and other places began to develop on a city-wide basis. So voter registration and trying to involve people more in the political process particularly in the poorer areas, that whole thing sort of culminated with the election of Harold Washington in 1983. 14 �JJ: So there was a direct link between -- JH: Oh, definitely. I mean maintain that without the [00:29:00] ground work that we did here that Harold Washington would’ve never been elected mayor. That was really the significance of it. I think when Harold ran for mayor -- I forget what year it was, ’82 or ’83 -- I mean we ended up registering that year something like 260,000 people to vote on a city-wide basis. At that time, in order to register to vote, you had to go downtown to register to vote. And they had one day, just like 30 days before the election, you could register to vote in your precinct; but other than that, the only way you could register to vote would be to actually go to city hall. So we used to bus people from all over the city every Saturday down to the city hall to register to vote. In that year leading up to Harold’s election, we registered I want to say about 250,000 people which [00:30:00] without those 250,000 people we never would have won that election. We started out going door to door in Uptown, and basically as you expand that, it eventually became a city-wide movement and that’s -- ended up electing Harold mayor. JJ: Now, what was your role back in the Jimenez campaign? What was your role? I mean what was your position and (inaudible)? JH: I mean it’s hard to remember. I was always the person who was in charge of the logistics of the organization. In other words, I was sort of like the administrative director. So all the people who worked for us basically went through me. I was the overall administrator of the organization. JJ: And you remained in this post all the way through -- up to [00:31:00] the Harold Washington election? 15 �JH: I mean in terms of the cadre of hardcore people then, I was always their director. In terms of the campaign, when Harold was -- (break in audio) JH: Just to backtrack a little bit -- again, the roots of this movement go back to 19691970. It actually probably goes back further than that, but it’s sort of the history of the [I don’t know if you want to call it?] revolutionary struggles, but -- so a lot of this came out of the civil rights/student protest movements of the late ’60s early ’70s. And people, at the time, are looking for [00:32:00] a meaningful way to take it to the next step. So in other words, the root of it is the civil rights movement, number one, and the Black Panther Party who was espousing the position that the Black -- the movement for civil rights was the vanguard struggle, but particularly Fred Hampton had the idea that this wasn’t really a Black -- a struggle just for Black nationalism, but it was a class struggle and should involve all oppressed peoples. So he made an effort to coalesce with other communitybased movements which had their basis in the civil rights movement, but were also involved in some kind of community struggles for control of the community. Back in the late ’60s in most major cities in the country it was true that most [00:33:00] Black and Hispanic people had very little political power, A, and B, were subject to fairly oppressive measures by the police and other people. So police brutality was a serious issue and -- (break in audio) JJ: Police brutality. 16 �JH: So there was various things going on, sort of like grassroots type movements. In Uptown, there was this group called the Young Patriots who were trying to organize poor whites. And at the time, I think the Young Lords who originally started out as sort of a street gang had begun to develop into more of a political organization patterned after the Black Panther Party. And so the Young Patriots sort of faded away, but the Young Lords and the [00:34:00] Intercommunal Survival Committee -- there was another group of white revolutionaries called Rising Up Angry -- they all sort of -- since they were doing pretty much the same things in their own community, it was sort of a natural coalition. There was a particularly a push by Fred Hampton that we should be -- I think he used to say, “Black people should be organizing Black people, and Brown people Brown people, and white people white people.” But we all have the same -- let me turn this damn thing off here. We all have the same goals. So it was sort of natural that we would work together. JJ: So you started working with the Young Lords in Lincoln Park? JH: Yeah. Again, it was on and off, but we were basically involved on a [00:35:00] consistent basis with anybody who was organizing the community along the same means that we were. So the Young Lords, the Black Panthers, and us, pretty much, in Chicago that were -- those were the three groups that spearheaded the whole movement. JJ: After Fred Hampton was murdered, and Mark Clark, was there like a vacuum or something? And did this movement kind of a take a leadership role at that time? 17 �JH: Bobby Rush who was the minister of defense for the Black -- he sort of stepped right in after Fred was -- so Fred was sort of a dynamic person. His murder actually did a lot to heighten people’s consciousness, so to speak. Whatever the powers that [00:36:00] be had intended -- they thought that that was going to wipe out the movement, and it actually had the opposite effect. JJ: So the movement grew? JH: Yeah. I mean, again, the whole impetus for the first foray into electoral politics in Chicago which eventually ended up in the election of Harold Washington was the murder of Fred Hampton, beyond a doubt. It was that movement of getting rid of Ed Hanrahan which was the first serious effort to challenge the actual political process. Prior to that, it was protest movements and marches. JJ: And was there also an Oakland election going on also? JH: Well, yeah, Bobby Seale who was head of the Black Panther Party was running for mayor of Oakland. Elaine Brown was running for councilwoman. That was part of what I call like the grand march theory. In other words, the idea was -what the Black Panther Party [00:37:00] did was they closed most of their chapters all over the country and moved everybody to Oakland. And the idea was to establish a base of operations in Oakland to eventually seize political power in the city and to use that as a model to show the rest of the country that this is what we can do as revolutionaries. This will be the difference in terms of how people control their own community. They had a ten-point platform and various things -- people have a right to food, and clothing, and shelter, things like that. The Intercommunal Survival, we adopted a similar strategy, the idea was to 18 �pull in all various people from all over the country who were involved in this struggle with the Black Panther Party to work in Chicago, in the community, in the 46th Ward, and then try to use that as a base [00:38:00] of power. You know, one of the things with the 46th Ward, again, in this community, was it was a very diverse community. You had a concentration of Appalachian whites, but you also had a concentration of Puerto Ricans in northern Lakeview. So it was sort of a natural -JJ: It was sort of segregated then. JH: Yeah. I mean the city was tremendously segregated, always has been. It still is to some extent, but even more so back then. Uptown was the white ghetto, and Lincoln Park, Lake View, West Town were Puerto Ricans, and Pilsen is where Mexicans lived, and Black people lived on the south and west side, you know, certain [00:39:00] defined areas. And people didn’t mix very well. So part of the thing was you would organize your own community, but it wouldn’t be an isolated thing. In other words, Puerto Ricans should order Puerto Ricans but they shouldn’t only stay amongst Puerto Ricans. We need a place where we can come together and coalesce because we share the same problems. (laughs) JJ: What were some of the events of that campaign that you recall? Any specific ones? JH: The Cha-Cha Jiménez campaign? JJ: Yeah. JH: It’s hard to remember, that’s 40 years ago, but I mean I remember we used to -the guy who was running against him was Chris Cohen, and he was sort of a 19 �victim of our -- he probably didn’t turn out to be such a bad guy in the end. His daddy was the head of HUD or something. [00:40:00] We used to follow him around. Anytime he had an appearance, we would show up with 200 people. We had the anti-arson thing, I think that was during that campaign. I don’t know, I can’t remember. I remember following Chris Cohen around. (laughs) The main thing, I think, was the voter registration thing. It doesn’t seem like that’s significant now, but, again, you got to go back 40 years and see that the whole voter registration process was completely controlled by the Democratic machine. This was the first attempt to break that. They made it real difficult for anybody to register to vote unless you went through them. I remember every [00:41:00] Saturday we would rent six vans and each load them up with 15 people and we’d bring 100 people downtown to register to vote. That was a big deal back then. JJ: So there was this campaign, the Jiménez campaign, and there were other -- the Shiller campaign came after that? JH: Yeah, a couple of Shiller campaigns. JJ: Did you see any impact of all these campaigns and all this organizing? JH: I mean, again, ’79 is when Jane Byrne got elected mayor, so that was first time someone other than Democratic machine got elected in Chicago. That was sort of a fluke because it was based on the weather and other things. [00:42:00] I mean I think the grassroots organizing that went on culminated in, again, the election of Harold Washington in ’83. That was a real candidate who was based in the community. In addition to that, we won a number of aldermanic races all over the city. Bobby Rush was elected alderman of the 2nd Ward, Helen Shiller 20 �was elected in the 46th Ward, and Luis Gutiérrez was elected in -- I can’t remember the name of the ward -- 29th, maybe. Dorothy Tillman was another one. These were all grassroots people who were elected outside of the power that had existed prior to that. And that election, we basically, [00:43:00] with Harold Washington, took over the city government. In 1983 when Harold was first elected, he didn’t have a majority so the fight between the -- I think it was the 29 and the 21 -- there was 21 alderman who were with Harold and 29 who were with right white wing, mostly white, mostly racist. Interestingly enough, most of the Puerto Rican alderman sided with Harold and the Mexican ones with the white people and the white power structure. In the subsequent election which was ’87 -- I think there was a special election in ’85 where we were actually able to gain a majority in the city council. And the city was beginning to change directions. The machine was being broken up and there was real [00:44:00] political power in city hall, the people had a real voice. Unfortunately, Harold died and then the whole thing sort of fell apart. There was a time that even the reactionary Black politicians who had sided for the machine for so long, they even sided with Harold because that’s where the power was rooted. His power was really rooted in the community. Again, the political organizing that started in 1971 was really the basis of it without a doubt. (break in audio) JH: You can edit this if you want. I guess what happened here is that the -- when Harold was elected -- 1983, 1984 the Black Panther Party and [00:45:00] similar organizations who had been victimized for a number of years by the FBI, and the 21 �COINTEL Program, and drugs in the community -- I mean this was a concerted effort to demonize certain persons who were the leaders of the movement. Fred Hampton was murdered, but Oakland, California and the base of the Black Panther Party was inundated with drugs. Crack cocaine made its appearance in the ghettos in the early ’80s. This was not an accident. One of the problems in our community, in particular amongst poor people, has always been we’re susceptible to certain vices. Part of it is because of the difficulty of living in poverty. Drugs, alcohol that’s a natural -- [00:46:00] I’m not trying to make excuses for people, but this is a natural phenomenon. It seems that certain powers that be -- I’m not a great conspiracy theorist, but to me it’s factual that these communities are inundated with drugs. A lot of the leaders of the Black Panther party and Young Lords, other organizations fell into the trap, and got addicted to drugs, or got involved in drugs, or the money was alluring, or the gangster lifestyle, or whatever it was. But at the same time that the political movements are becoming more successful to some extent, a lot of the leaders of these various -- are being picked off, and the organizations are having a difficult time sustaining themselves. The Black Panther Party -- basically Huey Newton was continually arrested, and [00:47:00] harassed, and fighting trial after trial. And all the resources of the organization are going into defending the leaders, and, eventually, the organization begins to fall apart. After the last round of arrests and murders of various Panthers, the organization just sort of disintegrated so that by ’83, ’84 the model of these cadre type organizations is -were beginning to fall apart. In some places where they were able to achieve 22 �some political power it continued on other levels. I say that because by 1984 when Harold was elected, I pretty much dropped out of the movement, so to speak, but took a job with the Washington Administration as, the way I saw it, payback for all the years that I spent [00:48:00] in the struggle. So I went to work in the housing department, and went back to school, and got a degree in finance. Seeing this as sort of a victory -- in other words, all these years of struggling on the streets culminated in us now being part of the government. So we worked for the government for five, six years. And a lot of the people I had worked with all these years were now -- you know, all got government jobs in the city administration at some level or other. When Harold died, the struggle again was sort of bought off to some extent, and there was really no leaders to sustain the movement, so it sort of faded away. Most of us who were active took jobs in [00:49:00] various types of fields that were still of benefit to the community, but we could make a living. So I’ve been basically involved in affordable housing partly because I worked for the city for five, six years under Harold, and worked in the housing department, and so it was sort of natural that I would -JJ: What was your perspective when you were in there? I mean you said you were in a different level now. You’re working as part of the government even though you -- of course, you’ve always been progressive, (laughs) you’re still progressive. (inaudible) see any other type of perspective? (inaudible) activist? JH: The idea was that the resource of the government can now be used to directly benefit the people rather than -- so in other words, we’re not fighting the government, we’re now the government who was going to dole out the resources 23 �and that we would be able to come up with a plan that would really have an effect on the [00:50:00] community, which would improve the lives of the people. Now, you know, we were a little bit naïve because we didn’t realize how entrenched the political power was. So even though you took over -- nominally you took over the government, you didn’t really because the people who actually run things on the underneath are still there and they’re going to fight you tooth and nail. But, see, that whole movement has a lot of significance. Because we were so close to achieving political power, and there was a cultural change developing in the country, that caused a backlash. So what’s happening today with the Republicans, and the whole Reagan revolution and all that, that was a direct result of the push from the left that caused the right to push back. [00:51:00] In other words, the rich actually felt threatened by these movements, these attempts for people to seize political power, to seize the means of production. So they determined not to let this happen, and so this is -- the whole Tea Party movement and the whole Republican entrenchment of the right is a direct result of these movements of the ’80s and ’90s. So I don’t think I’ve ever really lost my perspective on this. I think part of the problem is we were able to get a certain level of community control, but we weren’t able to get to the next step. Part of that is because of the way the system is set up. We’re still in a class struggle, and the rich still control the means of the production, and even probably more so than was true 15, 20 years ago. [00:52:00] But to a large extent it’s still the same struggle. It’s still a struggle for community control, it’s still a struggle for control of 24 �the resources, to use the resources to benefit the majority of people rather than the chosen one, two percent. JJ: There was this housing plan, right? And there was like a 50-year housing plan, a master plan, for the city? JH: Yeah, Plan 21. JJ: Plan 21 and all that. Looking at it from that perspective of being within the government, you kind of mentioned that we still didn’t have any control. We still didn’t have any power. It didn’t change at all, did it? JH: Well, it changed to some extent, but, again, you see, one of the problems was it was a very small window here. In other words, when Harold seized control of the city hall, [00:53:00] he died four years or five years later and we were never really able to effect the change that we had wanted to effect although it did -- see, the original thing was -- I mean you can go back to the ’60s and ’70s in Chicago, the idea was to concentrate resources in the inner city and make that -- that was Chicago, downtown. Well, the neighborhoods were suffering, and all the resources of the city were directed at the inner city, the downtown area and immediate areas around it at the expense of the neighborhood. I think what the movement for community control represented was an attempt to shift some of those resources back to the neighborhoods [00:54:00] although it probably didn’t go far enough. You can see the difference between Richie Daley Sr. and Richie Daley Jr. Richie Daley Sr. didn’t care, “Screw all you, we’ll do it my way.” Richie Daley Jr. was able to buy off most communities because he did see the need to distribute some of the city’s resources back to the neighborhoods. 25 �JJ: What do you mean he bought them? How did he do that? JH: For instance, every alderman was given a fund of, say, ten million dollars a year to use in the community. That would’ve never happened under Richie J. Daley. That was a result of the community organizing. There was a certain attempt to listen to some of the local representatives, and give that money for streets and sidewalks, and there was housing developed [00:55:00] in the communities, you know, not for profits, low-income housing, the tax credit program, there was various use of various federal housing programs, an attempt to rebuild public housing. It was more -- JJ: But did the plan change at all or (inaudible) -- a new revamped plan? JH: I mean the essence of it probably didn’t change. I mean I think we slowed down the process. We were able to strengthen the neighborhoods to some extent, we probably didn’t go far enough, but I think without that movement no telling what would have happened. JJ: (inaudible). JH: I think the city’s probably much more open. JJ: They slowed it down, but there’s still (inaudible) -- JH: I mean the money [00:56:00] is still there. JJ: More poor people on the lakefront. JH: Well, that’s true, but that has to do with the whole focus of the country to a large extent. The class thing has become more pronounced than it ever has been. But, again, you could argue that that’s a result of our movement, not them winning, but there’s a pushback to what -- like I said before, the campaign for 26 �community control hasn’t ended. I think the government in the city is much more responsive than it was 30 years ago, but did we succeed? Probably not. But did we have an effect? Yeah, definitely. JJ: What about like today there’s a whole thing about foreclosures and stuff like that. How does [00:57:00] the past relate to today -- today’s housing situation? JH: I have a hard time making the connections between the movements back then and what’s going on today, but the thing there was that -- the part of the pushback was to deregulate, to give the banks and other people more power. That was the whole Reagan revolution. Greed was good. Greed is good. That’s the American thing, and no one should be ostracized for that. [00:58:00] The big bankers and stuff saw a way to make a lot of money and they used the people as ploys in a game. It was only a matter of time before -- it was like you’re building a house of cards, well, eventually, it’s going to collapse. The fundamental question we’re faced with now is not that much different than it was forty years ago: are the majority of people going to have any control over the political process or the use of resources in the community or is everything going to be controlled by the top one or two percent? And that’s really the same struggle that we had back then. We probably lost ground to some extent because that one percent is more entrenched and they own more resources than they ever did. I mean I see this [00:59:00] presidential election as pry the most critical election we’ve ever had in this country. And to me, the election of Barack Obama was the result -- that’s like a direct extension of what happened in Chicago with the election of Harold Washington. The people are dissatisfied, they’re looking for an 27 �alternative, they elect the alternative, and then the powers that be do everything they can to attack everything that he does and make sure that nothing he does can be successful, and then they go around saying, “Everybody see? He can’t do this. You got to stick with us.” And that’s sort of what -- we need to take this to the next step. I think what happened here was that we got there but didn’t know what to do when we got there. (laughs) In other words, we got political power to some extent, but now that we’re sitting there in the seat, “Now what do we do?” Eventually, we were going to figure this out, but the other side [01:00:00] pushes back on this and they will use every opportunity to attack, attack, attack. And since they control the media and other things, we’re up against it. The problem today is that people are more easily manipulated because the media and everything is so much more invasive. They’re bombarded 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, and a lot of the safeguards that were built in, protecting people from falsehoods and certain people controlling the media have all been removed. I mean you have Fox News, that has no journalistic value at all. They just say whatever the hell they want to say. You keep repeating the same thing over and over again, people will believe it. The whole idea of these super PACs where they can -- [01:01:00] one millionaire can put a billion dollars into Romney’s campaign and control the message. So we’ll see. We’ll see how gullible people are this year. Can people be manipulated to vote against their own self-interest or in the end will people -- we’ll see. (break in audio) 28 �JH: I guess the lesson here is that the campaign for community control was an important step. The problem was that maybe we didn’t take it far enough. And again, like I just said, I think where we’re at now is we’ll see what happens in this -- this presidential election will say a lot [01:02:00] as to whether or not we had any -- whether the movement was minimally successful, or are we going to continue to advance the rights of the people? Or are we going to go backwards? JJ: What you’re trying to say is that this presidential election is a result of all these (inaudible)? How is (inaudible)? JH: Well, I think it’s a culmination of where we started. In other words, this was a grassroot movement for people to seize political power, to allow people to have a voice in their own government, in their own communities, to make the institutions of government serve the people. I think we were able to get to a certain point and certain places in this country where that was successful. Because of the pushback by the right wing and other people, we basically regressed a little bit so people [01:03:00] had to retreat. People continue to have an effect through other means by being involved in housing, or healthcare, or other issues. I think on a national level, various progressive people that were put in place all over the country were able to elect a fairly progressive president, but, again, you can see the pushback over the last four years from the right wing trying to reverse that. So now we’ve come to the point -- are we going to step forward or are we going to allow ourselves to pushed all the way back into the pit again? Again, I’m sort of at the point where it’s sort of -- judgment is still -- the jury is still out on whether or not we were successful in what we were attempting to do back in the ’60s and 29 �’70s. [01:04:00] I know that one success was the -- I mean racism and the ability of people of different types of ethnic backgrounds to interact, a lot of doors were opened that weren’t open before, but, again, are we going to take that on to -- it really comes to the point are you going to wipe out the middle class in this country? Are you going to have a third world country where one percent of the people control everything and everybody else lives in crime and poverty? Or are you going to continue to build a movement where people have some control over their resources and are able to improve their lives? We’ll see. That’s sort of where we’re at. I think that’s where we started and we’re sort of back there again. If we can take the next step and continue to build a power base in the communities where people have [01:04:00] some control over their lives then we’ll be there, but maybe not. (laughter) END OF VIDEO FILE 30 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4fafc6bef264cec85a57843bfc1316a5.mp4 fd820427b039148751dd8f1378f322d6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Jack Hart vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Jack Hart era el asistente de Walter “Slim” Coleman durante la campaña de Jiménez para Alderman en 1975. Señor Hart todavía vive y trabaja en el Distrito 46 de Chicago que ahora es una comunidad más nueva y elegante. En los 1907s Hart era un miembro de la Intercommunal Survival committee, un grupo de gente blanca que soportaba el Black Panther Party. Miembros de esa organización trabajaron con Cathy Archibald y Slim Coleman en la el Centro de Información del Vecindario en Lincoln Park. También ayudaron a Señor Jiménez hacer, publicar y financiar uno de los periódicos originales de los Young Lords, y trabajo cerca con Jiménez y los Young Lords hasta 1983 donde Helen Shiller fue elijada como Alderman y Harold Washington fue el primer Afroamericano alcalde de Chicago. Señor Hart junto con la administración de Alcalde Washington, como Asistente del Comisario. Durante este tiempo era responsable de administrar todos los programas de prestemos para la rehabilitación de la cuidad de Chicago. El también ayudo formular y lanchar la asociación de Chicago Housing, Low Housing Tax Credit, y el programa de calefacción de la cuidad de Chicago. Ahora es un agente de urbanización y también el principal Oficial de Financias en Affordable Property Management Specialists en Chicago. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Chicago (Ill.)--Política y gobierno--1951- Chicago (Ill.). Alcalde (1983-1987 : Washington) Discriminación en la vivienda--Illinois--Chicago Housing--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Hart_Jack Title A name given to the resource Jack Hart video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hart, Jack Description An account of the resource Jack Hart was a primary assistant to Walter “Slim” Coleman during the Jiménez for Alderman Campaign of 1975. He continues to live and work in Chicago’s 46th Ward, primarily in the Uptown Community. In the 1970s, Hart was a member of the Intercommunal Survival Committee, a white group that supported the Black Panther Party. He worked closely with the Young Lords. Mr. Hart joined Mayor Harold Washington’s Administration as Assistant Commissioner and was responsible for administering all of the City of Chicago’s rehabilitation loan programs. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Chicago (Ill.)--Politics and government--1951- Chicago (Ill.). Mayor (1983-1987 : Washington) Discrimination in housing--Illinois--Chicago Housing--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-01 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ec1148512920052e886fccd8e3dc1003.pdf 6dafd634447b5fa5dc5706130fa78578 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Iberia Hampton Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/9/2012 Biography and Description English Iberia Hampton is the mother of murdered Illinois Black Panther Party Chairman Fred Hampton, as well as Dee and Bill Hampton. Throughout her life she has been active within her church and the community. She contributes time and money each year to organize a family reunion traveling to her southern birthplace to remember her son, husband, and other relatives that have passed at their gravesites. Along with Bill Hampton and the board, Mrs. Iberia Hampton is the primary organizer of the annual celebration of the Fred Hampton Scholarship Fund. Her keen and natural brilliance stands out in this interview, as well as how humble, friendly and kind she remains, even after the proven government corruption that led to the brutal loss of her son. Spanish Iberia Hampton es la madre de Fred Hamton, al vicepresidente quien fue asesinado, y también madre de Dee y Bill Hampton. Durante su vida fue dedicada en su iglesia y comunidad. Contribuye tiempo y dinero para organizar una reunión con su familia en que van a visitar en donde nació y donde esta enterrado su hijo, esposo, y otros familiares. Con su hijo, Bill, y otros miembros Señora Hampton organiza le celebración del Fred Hampton Scholarship fund. Su profunda y genialidad natural brilla en este �entrevista igual que como humilde y agradable ella todavía es, aunque la corrupción en el gobierno le tomo la vida de un hijo. �Transcript IBERIA HAMPTON: (inaudible) some of us don’t leave here to go back (inaudible), and we always stayed a extra week. [With the extra week, we have to?] clean the farm up and [stuff, fixing the house up. Something?] real nice. JOSE JIMENEZ: So, when you go there, you went to the cemetery to fix it up, you said? IH: Go to the cemetery? JJ: Is that what you said? IH: Mm-hmm, yeah. Go to the cemetery. JJ: I mean [when you would go there?]. Who were you talking -- you’re talking about Fred? IH: I got Fred down there. My husband’s down there too. JJ: Your husband’s down there now. IH: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. So, (inaudible). IH: Yeah. JJ: Your husband. IH: Mm-hmm. [Fred’s there?]. JJ: And this is done every year? IH: [Mm-hmm, I do every year?]. JJ: On Mother’s Day. IH: Mm-hmm. Go every year. 1 �JJ: That’s beautiful. Yeah. IH: When Fred was -- [you’ve got?] pictures of Fred there. When he was little, [00:01:00] he went every year too. [They’ve been?] going every year since they was little kids. They always got a vacation, all their life. JJ: And you made sure it was Mother’s Day. IH: Yeah. No. No. They got a vacation. It wasn’t Mother’s Day all the time. Sometimes, they got it for Easter. Whatever time. See, when he was working, we got it whatever time he got the days off. Then, we left (inaudible). He said, “We can take a week for Easter if you want to.” [We said?], “Okay, we’ll go.” (inaudible) for Easter. Then, after we got Bill, they didn’t want Easter. They wanted a different day. They wanted it to be later [so they had?] more time. The kids did. [And, see, at the start of?] that time, I wasn’t working. (inaudible). He’d take his time off. JJ: [00:02:00] That’s beautiful. I mean, I wish we could do that. I mean, we’re from the country too. We’re in Puerto Rico. IH: Yeah. JJ: [Same thing?]. But (inaudible). IH: [It’s a good time?] JJ: Are you ever planning to go back there just to stay, or you’re going to stay here? IH: (inaudible) [to live by?] my kids are here. JJ: You don’t want to go down there? IH: [I’d go down there to meet ’em?], but -- JJ: But not to live. 2 �IH: -- not to live. I won’t go there to live. My kids are here, and most of my people are scattered around. We just got -- there’s three houses now on the farm (inaudible) bad shape. We’re thinkin’ about how we’re gonna fix them. JJ: So, most of the kids and everybody’s here. In Maywood, or --? IH: My kids? JJ: Yeah. The two kids are here -- IH: [00:03:00] Uh-huh. JJ: -- but I’m saying -- IH: They’re both here. JJ: But the rest of the family is here, I mean? IH: Uh-huh, yeah. My -- JJ: I mean, how many brothers and sisters did you have? IH: My brothers and sisters? Oh, I don’t have any brother and sister. I’m an only child. JJ: Oh, you’re an only child? IH: Uh-huh. I had one sister and two brothers [before, but?] they’re all dead except me. I’m the only one living. JJ: Okay. And what about Francis? IH: [Frankie?]. His family’s [out in?] California. California, Arkansas, (pause) Texas, and -- [where was Libby?]? P1: [00:04:00] When she was living, she was living in Las Vegas. IH: Yeah. Yeah. P1: [She’s dead now?]. 3 �IH: Yeah. Las Vegas. [Yeah, she’s?] Las Vegas, Texas, Arkansas, Louisiana. I think [that’s all of it?]. (inaudible). California. Mm-hmm. My sister lived in Louisiana, and my brother lived here. My other brother was -- he was in -- he lived in all different places. [He was?] -- JJ: What about, like, Fred Jr.? I mean, you spent a little time with Fred Jr.? IH: [He would see me the night before last?] (inaudible). JJ: [A night before?] (inaudible). IH: Mm-hmm. JJ: [How did it happen?]? Did you enjoy [00:05:00] [him growing up?]? IH: Oh, I love him. JJ: You love him? IH: Yeah, I love him. JJ: Anything that you remember when he was a child, or --? IH: Mm-hmm. [I would?] take him outside with me all the time on vacation. [Yeah, he was?] right with me. (inaudible) [nothing for me to cook him or anything?]. JJ: What does he like? What does he like? IH: Huh? JJ: What does he like the best? IH: What do I make for him? JJ: Yeah. IH: Cabbage and fish. [He likes?] cabbage and fish. (inaudible) [I get it?] (inaudible) [came out?] (inaudible). He told me [he’ll be back Friday?]. 4 �JJ: Okay. All right. Well, let me -- I was gonna ask you a few questions, but -- so, let me -- [00:06:00] anything that we should add about Fred or yourself that you think we should add to this video? IH: Uh-uh. (inaudible). JJ: Okay. IH: Uh-uh. JJ: Well, I appreciate it. I just wanted to put that on because I’m going to interview your son, but I wanted to [put a few things out?]. Since I’m here, I wanted to make sure that I get something from you. IH: Okay. JJ: I appreciate that. IH: Mm-hmm. JJ: And happy birthday. IH: Thank you. END OF VIDEO FILE 5 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/90d7cc40923a8bcde45056adeb44bbf2.mp4 c82010de81b44083d79bbd7044a86537 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Iberia Hampton vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Iberia Hampton es la madre de Fred Hamton, al vicepresidente quien fue asesinado, y también madre de Dee y Bill Hampton. Durante su vida fue dedicada en su iglesia y comunidad. Contribuye tiempo y dinero para organizar una reunión con su familia en que van a visitar en donde nació y donde esta enterrado su hijo, esposo, y otros familiares. Con su hijo, Bill, y otros miembros Señora Hampton organiza le celebración del Fred Hampton Scholarship fund. Su profunda y genialidad natural brilla en este entrevista igual que como humilde y agradable ella todavía es, aunque la corrupción en el gobierno le tomo la vida de un hijo. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Afro-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Hampton, Fred, 1948-1969 Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capítulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Hampton_Iberia Title A name given to the resource Iberia Hampton video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hampton, Iberia Description An account of the resource Iberia Hampton is the mother of murdered Illinois Black Panther Party Chairman Fred Hampton, as well as Dee and Bill Hampton. Throughout her life she has been active within her church and the community. Along with Bill Hampton and the board, Mrs. Iberia Hampton is the primary organizer of the annual celebration of the Fred Hampton Scholarship Fund. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) African Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Hampton, Fred, 1948-1969 Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-09 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/530d79aa08dcd3257578e0c19c97f132.pdf f29def97a74abffa08c92759bd41dbb5 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Bill Hampton Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/9/2012 Biography and Description English Bill Hampton is a former Chicago public school teacher and the brother of Fred Hampton, Deputy Chairman of the Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party who was murdered by a special police squad in an early morning raid on December 4, 1969. Bill Hampton grew up in Maywood, Illinois, where he organizes an annual commemoration event for his brother, usually attended by civic leaders and the community at large. Mr. Hampton has served as director of the Midwest Voter Alliance, as a field organizer for then-presidential candidate Barak Obama, and he also runs a traffic safety program in Maywood. Spanish Bill Hampton era un maestro en las escuelas de Chicago y también el hermano de Fred Hampton, quien fue el vicepresidente de la sección del Black Panther Party en Illinois. Fred Hampton fue asesinado en la mañana del 4 de Diciembre 1969 por un equipo especial de policía. Bill Hampton creció en Maywood, Illinois, donde organizo un a conmemoración anual en recuerdo de su hermano que fue atendido por líderes del cívico y la comunidad. En Maywood, Señor Hampton corre un programa de seguridad en el �tráfico y como director de Midwest Voter Aliance, organizo y coordino para Barak Obama durante su primera ves corriendo por presidente. �Transcript BILL HAMPTON: Glad to be here. (inaudible) JOSE JIMENEZ: Tell me about your family a little bit and your (inaudible) growin’ up. BH: My family migrated to Chicago from Louisiana and we were born here at Cook County Hospital. It’s me, Fred, my sister Delores, and we lived in Argo, Illinois for a while. We moved to Blue Island, Illinois. Stayed there about 7 years. Attended Bremen School, then we come to Maywood in ’58. JJ: What school was that? BH: Bremen? JJ: Bremen Elementary in Maywood -- in Blue Island. I don’t think it’s there anymore. And we come to Maywood in ’58 and attended Irving School. Then we left [out there?] and went to Proviso East. We liked sports. We always had a vacation every year. Family kept us close knit. We visited our relatives in the city and the South. JJ: Were you on the same team as Fred or...? BH: Well, we played Little League Baseball. We both liked baseball. JJ: And what school was this? BH: Little League [00:01:00] was in a community. We was on different teams, yeah. JJ: So what teams were you playin’ on? BH: Baseball teams. We played, both, baseball. He played first base and third base. I played first base, outfield, pitched. And then we got into high school, we played things like football and all that. Football and basketball. And we liked a lot of 1 �music concerts. In fact, Fred played saxophone. JJ: Oh, Fred played the saxophone? BH: And then I played trombone a little bit. And, you know, we kind of, like, my parents tried to keep us well rounded. My father was a painter and my mother and father both were in the union where they worked. CPC, both work in the union. So they always stressed education with us. And we would go to Louisiana. We would talk to our grandparents on both sides and they would tell us about how things were in the South, things that they had to go through here. [00:02:00] They didn’t want us to go through here. JJ: What kind of things? BH: Well, you know, segregation and racism and all that stuff. And so -- JJ: What were their names, your grandparents? BH: My grandparents on my mother’s side was [Eli?], that was her father Eli [Hugh?], and [Lizzy?] was her mother. My father’s dad was [Empsy?]. His mother was [Emma?]. They were both, you know, from Louisiana. JJ: So what was Eli’s [life?]? BH: He was a sharecropper raised on the 106-acre farm that his daddy, first generation out of slave, [Edmund?]. JJ: First generation out of slave? BH: No, he wasn’t, but his daddy was, Edmund. JJ: I mean, his daddy was a slave? BH: Yeah, Eli -- my mother’s granddaddy was first generation not a slave. Wasn’t a slave, he was first generation from slavery. But his daddy, which would have 2 �been my mother’s great grandfather, was a slave and his name was [Moses White?]. [00:03:00] And my father’s grandfather, you know, great grandfather, he was a slave. [Anderson?], out of Louisiana. JJ: So did Fred (inaudible) BH: (shakes head) JJ: No. (inaudible) So did Fred know this too? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) BH: Oh yeah, no we all knew the parents were slaves like most Black people did. You know, yeah, we knew that, yeah. ’cause quite naturally they brought it up. JJ: So how did this affect you? I mean, did you...? BH: Yeah, you know, we wondered about it. We wondered about it. We just glad it wasn’t in our generation, you know. When you talk to people it’s closer than you think, you know. You hear about it, you read about it. Again, you talk to your grandparents tell you different things didn’t used -- you know, take an effect on you. So I guess that’s why things happened in the ’60s like they did. People felt that somethin’ shoulda been did about it. And, you know, [00:04:00] we’d hear about things, read about things, and see different things. In Louisiana we saw different things. Segregation and places where things happened at. You know, so it put a little psychological thing on you. And then things you face here, you know. JJ: Okay. When you say segregation, because I mean, I think people divided in neighborhoods. BH: Well yeah, when we’d go South you see colored signs and Black signs, you know, colored and white. You couldn’t use the washrooms or you couldn’t go to 3 �certain restaurants or somethin’. So we would see that. And after a period of time, when the movement got strong, we went back down there and one gas station we used to go to, we saw the sign was down. So me and my brother said, “Look, see it’s down. It’s not there no more.” So we’d go down there and sometimes we’d accidentally go in the wrong, and the guy said, “No, yours is over here.” You know? So it’s kind of like, [00:05:00] you go in that territory and it freak you out. You see those signs, would freak us out. JJ: So when -- BH: (inaudible) freak us out. JJ: So when you were growing up, you were just studying politics or you were just seeing things? BH: Well we were seeing things before we got started because of, you know, Fred’s ambition was to be a lawyer, and he was deep into that real heavy. And he got involved in things at the high school, Proviso, which was a mixed integrated school. So by him being good with students, it made him the head of the Interracial Cross-Section Committee. And he took the job. He took it and did it and did it well. As he did that, he got out of high school and went into college. And he, you know, started demonstration for open housing. He got elected to the Youth NACP [sic] and started doing things, demonstration for jobs, open housing, [00:06:00] recreation facilities, which was approved. And I guess he got into it deeper than he expected. And if he had gotten in so deep, he wasn’t the type to just get out of it. He just went all the way through it. As bad as he wanted to be a lawyer, he just kind of pushed that aside and decided, “Okay, I’m going to 4 �Youth NACP. Then he go from that to the Panthers.” Just felt he had a job to do. And he just made that commitment and he wanted people to be around him and be dedicated too because he didn’t want to feel like he was wasting his time. ’Cause he always said, “I could go back to being a lawyer. I don’t want to be with a bunch of people who’s wastin’ my time.” So this is what he got off into. And he just had that commitment that other people he grew up with had just as much charisma as he did. But they weren’t dedicated to struggle. Many people grew up with him had just as much ability but were opposite. Some of them were negative ways. But he was able to, through his upbringing, keep things [00:07:00] on the right path. JJ: So you’re saying negative ways? These were his friends? BH: Some of them. JJ: Or [worked?] with? BH: Some of ’em. Well, not his friends, some of ’em were people he grew up with. JJ: He grew up with? BH: Yeah. They had charisma -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) BH: -- and they had good things. JJ: So what did they do when you say negative things? BH: Well, some of them’d be doin’ drugs and different things like that. You know, negative ways. JJ: Okay, so that was a problem here too? Inside Chicago? BH: Oh, yeah. The drug thing hit the Black community even in rural areas. Right, so 5 �it wasn’t just -- quite naturally, when it was in bigger cities it got more attention. But I think drugs affected Black people all over, just like racism affected Black people all over. Even in the suburbs, even though they would move out of the city to the suburbs to do better, but it still was there. See, Fred realized that he was trying to show people that even though a lot of them moved to Maywood from neighborhoods in the city, that they still wasn’t living equal to the whites of [every night?]. That they were better off than they were, but [00:08:00] they still had problems. They didn’t even have a swimming pool in their neighborhood. They had to go other places to do it. That’s what he was trying to show people, that they still weren’t free and they still had problems to deal with. JJ: So he got into the NAACP after the swimming pool? BH: Before. Before. JJ: So that’s how he got into the NAACP? BH: Right. He was pushing the swimming pool, open housing, and all. JJ: (Spanish) [00:08:29] (break in audio) JJ: So we’re getting to the -- BH: Youth NAA-- JJ: The pools, the swimming -- BH: The Youth NACP, they would fight for open housing, jobs, and, you know, different discrimination in the area. And then one of their main objects was the swimming pool, were just cryin’ for years about the swimming pool in the area. You know demonstrations was led about that and all of that. And, you know, 6 �[00:09:00] Fred went to jail a couple times. But -JJ: He went to jail for the demon-- BH: Demonstration for the pool. JJ: Here in Maywood? BH: Uh-huh. JJ: For the pool. BH: So -- JJ: Okay. So he went to jail for the pool. BH: Uh- huh. So they were demonstrating for a while, that. And after he was in the youth in the NACP doing things for the youth in the NACP, he met people with SNCC like, you know, Stokely Carmichael. And he brought Stokely to Maywood to speak once. And then he got offered to go in the Panthers, and he didn’t make that decision right away. He didn’t want to do it right away. Then he finally, you know, got with them -- JJ: Did he talk to you about that or...? BH: Well, he talked to all the family about it and said that was a decision he wanted to make. JJ: Oh, he talked to the whole family? What did he -- BH: Different friends. JJ: What did he tell the family? BH: Well, he just said that was a decision he had made. You know, at first, he didn’t wanna really do it. But that was a decision he had made because he felt that they -- I guess he was gettin’ a little impatient, you know. That was the right track 7 �to make the movement go fast. He seen, like, they was movin’ faster [00:10:00] for freedom toward Blacks. That was one of the statements he made. And then he kind of liked it that they were really tellin’ the whole story about puttin’ all people together. Lettin’ people know that it was a little deeper than racism. It was really a class struggle. It was that these big forces were pitting the little people against each other. Well, I mean the poor people. That’s why he always said this is a Rainbow Coalition. He was talkin’ about Hispanics, Blacks, Native Americans, Asians, and poor whites. He was putting all that together. So I think that that inspired him to the party. And they weren’t just out there doing a cultural nationalist thing, just talking. They were feeding people, openin’ up health facilities, clothing programs, free bussing programs, and educatin’ people. ’Cause he used to always say, “If people are not educated, they don’t know why they doin’ what they doin’.” And they need to be educated, that they would send people to political orientation classes to let people know what’s happening. Because he said, “Some people may have an emotional [00:11:00] problem ’cause they poor. And once they get something they may exploit too.” And he used to always say, “Well we hate oppressors. Whether they -- who they may be, Black or white. We don’t want to be oppressed by nobody.” He used to always mention that. But I think growing up he always had a sensitivity for people. He was always sensitive. He was easy to get along with. He didn’t like to see nobody disrespected. He didn’t like to see nobody disrespected. He always demanded respect and tried to get other people to demand respect for each other. And he, at a very young age, he caught what was happening. He 8 �was taken by the Emmett Till thing you know. About Emett Till, ’cause Emmett Till was from Chicago. JJ: Okay, and the Emmett Till-- BH: We didn’t know Emmett Till. JJ: What was Emmet Till -- BH: My mother knew Emmett Till. JJ: Oh, she knew him personally? BH: Well, she grew up when he was growing up. But-- JJ: Okay. And what was the whole Emmett Till? BH: Well, Emmett Till, you know, he’s from Chicago. He -- JJ: Okay, but what happened there? [00:12:00] BH: Well he got killed with that -- [for?] whistlin’ at a white lady in Mississippi. He was down there on summer vacation, and some of his relatives still live in the area. One of them lives in countryside that wrote a book, and one of them’s (inaudible) out in Argo, Illinois, who was a part. So a lot of his relatives, you know, Emmett Till was older than either one of us, but he was always kind of a brave-like kid, you know, background. So that, since it was kind of close to home, that put a little, you know, Fred’s thing, you know. And so what we’ve tried to do through the years, we’ve, not only so much since we were a close-knit family, after Fred died, Reverend Ralph Abernathy of SCLC, as you know, and Jesse Jackson formed a Fred Hampton scholarship fund because Fred wanted to be a lawyer to give out scholarships. So the good thing about that is, me and my whole family and a lot of other friends got together on that, and every year we’ve had a 9 �[00:13:00] memorial for Fred along with giving out scholarships. And that started in ’71, we put that together. And this is now 2012. We’ve given out 125 scholarships. So we don’t just have the memorials and the scholarships. We also do things like registerin’ voters and try to put a conscious of people. Not just moralize it, but make people conscious of that there’s a struggle. You know? And keep Fred’s memory alive, because when we give the scholarships to people, we try to get people that’s going into it to bring it back to the community, and not just get into it for the fiscal part. But Fred would always say, “Bring your talent, what you know, back to the community.” And that’s what we’ve tried to do. And I’ve tried to do that. I’ve taught in the Chicago public system for a number of years. And after I did that, as a matter of fact, I’m workin’ on a program now, Real Men Read, to get more Black and Hispanic men to read more. And I’ve always done a lot of reading. I was readin’ [00:14:00] real heavy when I was six years old. My mother said I used to read to Sun-Times. And I’ve always been an avid reader, and my whole family has been a reader, you know, mother and father. And we were raised up that way. And they would always make us watch the news and give us a vacation every year. I didn’t have a lot, you know. But I guess they would consider my people, by Black standards, middle class. You know, because my father was a painter. And my parents worked for it. JJ: You said painter, regular house painter or...? BH: Yes p-- No well, he did some of that too, at the job. He did a lot of painting. He was a professional painter. He used to sometimes take me and my brother with 10 �him, you know. But me and my brother -JJ: You talkin’ about drawing artwork? BH: No, no. Just regular painting. JJ: Regular painting. Okay. BH: Yeah, he used to always tease me and my brother ’cause we weren’t mechanically inclined. We more or less was academic. He used to always tease us. Mm-hmm. He used always tease us. But you know, we’ve tried to keep that going, and we will. And [00:15:00] it hasn’t been easy, but we’re still trying to keep people goin’. Trying to, as much as we can, let the young people know what things are happenin’. And a young 13-year-old kid heard about Freddie, and we knew some of his relatives. So he interviewed us. And this is one of his things he put together. (points to tri-fold presentation board) By a 13-year-old kid, [Ryan Scott?]. And so we’ve had a lot of people come toward our -- me and Jeff went to a lot of book signins, and some of them we do separate, of people wantin’ to know. They like that book, Assassination of Fred Hampton. They like it. As a matter fact, I’ve got to order some more because we havin’ a big Black history symposium, February 24th. And this is Black history, when I just left school that, you know, one knows things about Fred and that information. So the book is even doing real well, that has helped the thing. And things like, you’re doing with the play. Hopefully that will bring out lotta things. And you know, you’ve been around, and [00:16:00] even Harold Washington admitted that Fred’s death helped him become the mayor. And wow, through those, don’t look like it, 40-some years, I think we did a pretty good job, all of us. Not just myself, 11 �but you and other people. I think we brought a lot of things out. You know, we probably still got a long ways to go, but I think you’ve brought a lot of things out there and keepin’ it going. And you’ve got this play comin’ up, so we need things like that. Yeah. JJ: Now, you were teaching, you said, for some time. BH: Yeah, right. In the Chicago public school system. JJ: And you were reading. Okay, so what were you teaching? I mean, what kind of- BH: Oh, reading special education. JJ: Reading special education. Okay. BH: Right. JJ: Okay, now you went to the same schools that Fred was? BH: Yeah, we all went to the same school, yeah. (laughs) JJ: Okay, and you’re not that far different in age, are you? BH: No, just a couple years. JJ: Okay, so -- BH: You know, we all went to the same grade school and high school. JJ: So what do you remember of you guys growing up? I mean, [00:17:00] any problems in school or anything like that or...? BH: No, the only problem we had in school was, you know, back in them days you had some racist teachers, you know. So you’d have little problems. And -- JJ: What do you mean? What did they do? BH: Well, a lot of things they would say then that people wouldn’t pay as much 12 �attention to. They would have, you know, you went to a mixed school. You had little race riots. You had teachers say little smart things and, you know, different things like that. And those silly things, you know, you weren’t, you know, just racism things. JJ: So it was mainly the teachers? You guys never got into any fights or anything like that? BH: Well, yeah, there were some fights. There were, you know, racist attitudes and we got in fights. Yes, we did. We not gonna lie about that. So that was just the sign of the times. You know, you had guys say things, so you’d get in fights with ’em, some of ’em. [00:18:00] JJ: But so there weren’t a lot of African Americans in your school? BH: No, we had a -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) BH: Well, when I went to Proviso, it was about 3,000 students. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JJ: You had (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Puerto Ricans, right? You didn’t... BH: No, the Puerto-- JJ: (laughs) BH: Well, we had Hispanics there, but we didn’t really -- there wasn’t really no fight with them. Every now and then there might have been. But it was mostly fights with the -- it’s kind of strange. It was fightin’ with the whites and the Italians. Even though Italians had similar lifestyles of Black, they were caught up in a lot of races because whites would kind of play us against them, you know, they 13 �would kind of play us against them, and Fred had taken to that. So we had those kind of little scrimmages, you know. And, you know, when I grew up, Italians had attitudes like a lot of Black. They were the toughest things around, so we’d test each other. You know, we both thought we were bad, kinda. You know, even if you were [00:19:00] an easygoing Black, that was our syndrome, sports, and you weren’t really, as Michelle Obama used to say, “I was smart, when it wasn’t popular to be smart.” See, in sports, people were our biggest heroes, you know, ’cause we didn’t have a whole lot of people in commerce back then, so sports heroes was our biggest heroes. So we were, you know, [onto?] Jimmy Browns and Wilt Chamberlains and Floyd Patterson’s, and all that kind of stuff, you know. JJ: Okay, like the boxers. BH: Yeah, they were our heroes, you know. Blacks grew up talkin’ about Joe Louis and... And it’s just like how we use this term. We went from the heavyweight champion to the president of the United States. So those were our heroes and we were locked out of all other things. So it was lotta [00:20:00] people coming from the neighborhoods, they didn’t even know each other. We’d play football with the whites and basketball and talk at school, every now and then. But after school, we’d go our separate ways. See, we’d go our separate ways. Every now and then, you know, you might have a few that we get deeper into, you know, knowing you a little better. But overall, there was a lot of hidden racism and certain things would bring it out. JJ: So, you remember some of Fred’s friends, and when he was younger? What were some of their names? 14 �BH: There were a lotta friends we had, they’d all come here. but we had a lot of ’em, you know, guys, [Mickey Lacey?] and [Goose?], a lot of different people, you know. They’d all come around. JJ: Goose [Tereno?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) BH: Yeah, he grew up with us, yeah. JJ: Oh, he grew up with you? Okay. BH: Mm-hmm. Yeah. JJ: ‘Cause he became a Panther later. BH: Yeah, well he -- somethin’ like that, [00:21:00] yeah. Mm-hmm. JJ: It was somethin’ like that. BH: You know, I knew [Nathaniel O’Neil?], but they were living in another town but I knew them. [Robert Bruce?]. Remember him? JJ: Yeah. JJ: They would come around. He went to school with me and Fred. As a matter of fact, he was a basketball player, he was in my typing class. (laughter) Yeah. Teacher used to tell us our hands was too big to type. So, those kinds of racist things, you know. Making it look like African Americans are somethin’ different. Little silly things like that. Yeah. JJ: So those sort of things kept building up inside you, right? BH: Yeah, we would hear all those things. Me and Fred would come home, we’d talk about different things they would say because you didn’t have that many Black teachers up there then. So they, you know, boy there was a lot of challenges. JJ: So when did you become more political? 15 �BH: Well -- JJ: ‘Bout how old were you then? [00:22:00] BH: My mind was always into it, I guess I got -- I didn’t join the Panthers, but I got political, mainly, when I was in college because I was in college durin’ the time of the Black movement, and I got, you know, political then. I saw a lot of things. My thing then, when I grew up, was just like any other teenager. If you call somethin’, fight ’em back and all that. It wasn’t, you know, thinkin’ about running for anything then. It was just keep ’em off your back. You know, keep the white folks off your back and all of that. If they want to be your friend, good. If they go too far, kick the you-know-what. But as I got in college, my, like, maybe junior year things began to turn for college life for Black students, and people got more political and that. And we got more political. And a lot of guys that I knew, even though they weren’t Panthers, they were still close to the Panthers. JJ: Like, and would -- BH: They were close to ’em. [00:23:00] JJ: Well did the studies department help them at all or...? BH: Well no, we had Black student unions and they would invite a lot of -- who would invite the Panthers and different things up. And so I think that movement of ’60 got a lot of people involved in some way, and I think that’s why I hate -- I really believe the drug thing came to kind of wipe it out because you had a lot of people who were getting political in some kind of way, older people. And it was really a good movement. Probably was some mistakes made. JJ: But then the drug thing came? 16 �BH: Yeah, I think so. I think that came like [off-loop?] thing. JJ: What do you mean? How can the drug -- what do you mean? BH: Well, you had a lot of people say that. I think drugs was put into the Black community to slow the movement down. And I really believe that, and they had it on the movie Panther. They kind of was indicatin’ that. So I really think that. I think that the movement was going real strong. JJ: You saw that here? BH: Yeah, I was seeing drugs [00:24:00] being [distribudated?] and people getting into it. You know, people who -- students, not just people on the streets, just professional people, getting high and smokin’ a little somethin’. JJ: So it wasn’t just that 60’s revolution, or...? So you think it was somethin’ that was done intentional? BH: I think it was done intentionally, in some cases. JJ: What’s your basis -- BH: I think it was a case of both. JJ: What’s your basis for that? That sayin’ that it was done intentionally? You said it was a basis for both? BH: Yeah, because I think that it was done, more or less, to keep the Black sleep. To keep them sleep because you know you go way back to the reservations, they would get the Indians drunk and stuff. And so when you really think about it, alcohol and all of that stuff is really somethin’ used to, even though you got -- well we all know we got white people drink too. But in a lot of ways that stuff has been thrown in the Black community in a lot of negative ways. You know, you 17 �got [00:25:00] different things that are thrown as people go forward, you got things that are thrown, that way to off track things. And I think that even though you had a drug revolution, you had different entertainers using it, different people. Also, I really think that it was done in the Black community to off throw things, I really do. (pause) Because if you notice during the middle of the ’70s a lot of movement waves were dyin’ off. You know, it was like dyin’ off and people were more anxious over getting high than they were doing something. And, you know, Fred’s thing was, even though he had friends got high, that was never his thing. You know, that was never his thing. I mean, you had a lot of good people that had good ways to do things, but yet they were getting’ -- I seen people like that, that -- you’d know some of them, they had good qualities, could have been good, as you might want to say, revolutionaries or good [00:26:00] soldiers, and they couldn’t really do what they wanted to do. They was too busy getting’ high. You know? JJ: Yeah, yeah. BH: And Fred was trying to keep these people off it. He was tryin’ to keep people, that, you know, these people, that go, to say “Hey you got brains to go the right way.” Some of these guys couldn’t stay away from that weed. You know, they couldn’t stay away from that weed. So you can’t -- it’s kind of hard to have -- put militancy and drugs didn’t mix. Lotta people tried it, but it didn’t mix. JJ: So Fred and yourself, you didn’t any weed or anything like that? BH: No, abso -- JJ: Not a lot-- 18 �BH: Smoked a little just to check it out. JJ: Not a lot. Just to check it out. BH: But not to really use it, no. Because I didn’t see anything -- I said, “What is this doing?” You know what I mean? Didn’t -- it wasn’t, you know, because I said, “Why do I need that to make a speech? Why I need that to pep me up?” And the guys that end up did it, ended up getting hooked, not doing nothing. Everything went apart, they didn’t do nothing [00:27:00] with it. So it had to be something that stopped things. I really believe that. JJ: Which wasn’t with us. (laughs) We did have problems with that. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) BH: Well yeah, that’s just, you know -- JJ: But he understood that. He was able to understand and try to work with us. BH: Mm-hmm. Oh yeah, he knew that. Yeah, right. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) BH: What Fred was trying to do, he was takin’ people that he knew had ability to use your abilities to get our freedom, get out here and fight for our freedom. He was saying all the time, “You can go overseas and fight for people you don’t know, why not get on the battlefield for your own people here?” And that same thing he was doing with people that were gangbangers, drug dealers. To say, “Hey, there’s a better way that you can...” Course he couldn’t convince all of them, but, “There’s a better way that you can serve, you know, and serve your community.” [00:28:00] JJ: After Fred’s death, you said a lot of the things kind of dwindled, died out. 19 �BH: Yeah. JJ: One of the problems was the drug problem. BH: That was one. JJ: But the other problem was just the leadership, the vacuum. BH: Yeah I think people -- JJ: What do you think -- BH: I think people hadn’t gotten used to -- certainly I think the Black movement itself had a lot of charismatic leaders that were taken out. And I think a lot of African Americans and maybe other people too got attached to that, and they weren’t able to build from that. ’Cause that’s why Fred used to have different people speaking and lettin’ people know that, what did they say, that there’s other revolutionaries out there. They didn’t really get that. They got so hung up on one person that they didn’t, you know, Black people are kinda sensitive people so it’d take ’em a while to overcome things. [00:29:00] Whereas white America, even though Kennedy was charismatic, they were able to put our country in Johnson’s hands and keep it moving. So I think a lot of people became stagnant with the Panther Party, even on Martin Luther King’s side. Malcolm X’s movement became kind of stagnant in some ways, and it took a little while to kinda get things moving. Right? JJ: ‘Cause that was in 1969, but then there was a killing also of Reverend Bruce Johnson at the Young Lords church. Were you aware of that at all? BH: Yeah, Bruce Johnson. Yeah, I heard of that. Sure. JJ: Did you know that that happened three weeks before Fred Hampton? 20 �BH: Think around the same time, that and the Soto brothers. JJ: The Soto brothers. BH: There was another one, well, wasn’t long before Jake Winters -- JJ: Jake Winters. BH: -- was killed too. JJ: So was there a connection with that? BH: Oh, yeah. JJ: Did you see a connection or...? BH: I saw a big connection. I saw a big connection with that. Looked like the [00:30:00] police just said, “Hey, we gonna get you back for that, Fred.” I think there was a lot of retaliation by the Chicago police. I’m not saying all of ’em, but a great number. Big retaliation. I really believe that, always will believe that. JJ: Now, you had that trial that lasted for several years. Was it established at that time that this was an action by the police at the trial or was that never established? BH: Well, I think it was. I think our lawyers did that, but I think that we had a judge that wouldn’t allow it to be -- He didn’t want -- (break in audio) BH: I think that was known and I think we got it out enough to the public to make a lot of people who didn’t know, know it. Because this is why Hanrahan was defeated. The first time the Black community ever really rosed up and defeated him. See, they realized that when they left that apartment, hopin’ that people see for themselves. [00:31:00] That was a big mistake they made. But I think during 21 �that trial, all those long months we was in trial, they were able to put out a lot of things, you know. And we just had the judge, Judge Perry, that did not accept it. And I think that a lot of things were bein’ -- tryin’ to block up. That’s the reason they gave the lawyers so much problems in court. But I think that a lot of things come out. Hey, you know, people are still talking about Fred. They got a book out. They’re talking about movies. They got plays. The name hasn’t gone, or well, the name’s still out there. Every time you look up, something’s coming up about Fred and the Panthers. So I think that they failed in a lot of ways, even though it’s been kind of rough for us to keep things going, I think that in a lot of ways we won. Sure, I’m not saying this to flatter nobody, but I really do because it’s still out there. It’s still out there. All these memorials and the way the book [00:32:00] is just selling, just different things. And people proved that when they went to the polls against Henry. So I don’t think that things that the Panthers did and Fred’s death is in vain. Even though we see a lot of negative stuff out here, but I think overall it’s not in vain. JJ: There was a Rainbow Coalition that you mentioned. BH: Mm-hmm. JJ: First original one was the Young Lords, the Black Panthers -- BH: Young Patriots, AIM, I guess was one of them. JJ: The first one were the Young Lords, the Black Panthers, and the Patriots. BH: Brown Beret? Wasn’t the group called the Brown -- JJ: They came later. BH: Oh, okay. Okay. 22 �JJ: But did he talk to you at all about that and his reasoning for that or...? BH: Yeah, because he just felt that they were being pitted against each other, and they took ’em all to come together to wipe out this oppression. And he believed that even though he was a proud Black man, he just felt that [00:33:00] all these people that’s been oppressed, like we were, Native Americans, Hispanics, must come together and not be pitted against each other, but must come together and wipe them out. That was really his name. He’d talk to me about that. We would talk about that. JJ: So he was proud to be a Black man. BH: Yeah. But at the same time, he knew that Hispanic people, poor white people, Asian people, and Native Americans, what have you, all were being oppressed and used against each other. He was able to see that whole thing, that whole thing, synopsis. And then he just tried to put it all together. And I think that’s why that they came so strong on him because he was waking people up, different, you know, different races up. That would have been a powerful thing, you know. JJ: Why [00:34:00] didn’t you ever join the Panthers then? Did you have a problem with some of their philosophy...? BH: No, somethin’ I just didn’t ever do. I just never joined them. I thought about it when I was workin’ so closely. I just didn’t really get into it. That’s a good question. I never even -- I probably don’t even know that myself. I thought about it, but I just never, you know, never got into it. I felt like I was ’cause I’d be at some of they programs and different things, you know. Yeah. JJ: Were you active at that time or...? 23 �BH: Yeah, I was real active at the Black Student Union, and I was doing a lot of programs with the party. Like, folks would come around. It’s how I met you. (inaudible) was joining it and all that. Nothing against it. I just, you know, not really, no. I had chances to. I thought about it, but I just... I don’t know. And he never pushed me to join. His attitude was always, [00:35:00] he had a lot of friends was what he was just saying. Everybody didn’t probably wanna be in it. He was a kinda funny person. He never did push people to really join it. His main thing was keeping people active because he was always -- he had a lot of friends who -- he was really trying to set up somethin’. He had a lot of people who weren’t Panthers that had watchin’ his back, doin’ different things. You know, Fred had so many things going on. He had people who weren’t in the party doing things for him, you know, ’cause had that type of personality that he’d go to schools and speak when he wanted to and all that. Course, when he got killed, you had a lot of Black students, kids from colleges, comin’ to his aid. JJ: So where was he goin’ to school? BH: Yeah, didn’t he have a good rapport with a lot ministers and stuff? Well, he started off at Triton College. Then he went to Wright, for a little while. Then he went to Malcolm X. He went to about four and [00:36:00] then U of I, he’d went to Illinois. JJ: Did he go to Roosevelt when you were younger? BH: No, he’d be up there a lot speaking. JJ: Speaking. BH: To Roosevelt. 24 �JJ: But his last school was where? BH: I’m trying to think. Was it Malcolm X or U of I? That’s a good question, because he was at Malcolm X. It was Crane when they changed the name. He was instrumental in that, when they changed the name from Crane Junior College to Malcolm X. I’m tryin’ to think. Was he at Malcolm X or U of I? It was around the same time. Maybe Malcolm X could have been later, maybe U of I was before. But he was at the University of Illinois at some point. And he was also close with a lot of labor people, because he worked at Harvester. So he was active with a lot of union people. JJ: He worked at Harvester? What did he do there? [00:37:00] BH: It was just regular labor. He was just workin’ his way through school workin’ there. And me and him used to work at Corn Products, where my parents worked because they got both jobs. We were both working our way through college. JJ: What was Corn Products like? Any -- BH: Was a lotta people worked there. It was interesting. A lot of young people working there for the summer like we was. You know, we’d talk, meet a lotta people. JJ: It was kind of fun going to college because we was at different colleges. We would be changing clothes, you know. We would wear some one place and he would wear some other places. It was kind of strange, you know. Kind of strange. But we were at Corn Products, yeah we was workin’ our way through school there. 25 �JJ: Did you guys ever fight or anything like that, physical or...? BH: No, we wrestled a lot together. JJ: Wrestling? BH: Yeah, we wrestled a lot. Tusslin’. My father would find out we were tusslin’, say he didn’t want no more tusslin’. If he ever caught us, it’d [be too bad], better do it outside. Because we would -- you know parents, we didn’t have a carpet on the floor. We had it like this. We just took these out where the carpet. [00:38:00] We were growin’ up, we’d be tusslin’. And friends come over and me and him’d be tusslin’. He’d say, “Well, no. I better not catch you wrestlin’ over here.” Well he was the type of guy what he said, he meant. (laughs) JJ: So you guys never really got into (inaudible) argument or anything? BH: (inaudible) Not a whole lot. No, not a whole lot really. JJ: Your mother said he demanded, kind of, respect from different people or...? BH: Yeah. JJ: And he looked out for the -- JJ: He wasn’t the type of guy to pick the fight or nothin’. He didn’t pick any fights. He was the type of guy that had attitude, we didn’t talk. And if he didn’t wanna talk, we could go another way. That was the type of attitude he had. ’Cause he didn’t get really popular maybe till his last years in school ’cause he was just an ordinary little guy. Then he just jumped up. JJ: What do you mean, ordinary little guy? BH: Well, he was just ordinary. Just a little -- see, everybody thought he was gonna be [00:39:00] short, but he ended up growing up real big, you know. He just 26 �kinda got popular in his last year. JJ: Popular in what way? BH: Well, in sports just, you know, I guess. JJ: Was he good at sports or...? BH: He was kinda laid back at first, but he was pretty good. He kind of got more, I guess, developed a way of getting’ more noticed or something. JJ: Growing up, I know he had a lot of conviction at the end, but growing up -- you know what I’m sayin’? How was his conviction? What I mean by conviction, when he believed in something, was it firmly or...? BH: Yeah. JJ: I mean what would expect -- BH: Mm-hmm, yeah. He was deep in his convictions ’cause used to say he wanted to be a lawyer, not just to make money, but to help people. So he had deep, [00:40:00] deep convictions, you know. Even though he became a popular person in school, he always shared with the less fortunate. He always had a kinda feeling for people, kinda felt sorry for people. I mean, he’d laugh and joke and play, but he was always -- like to read. And he would take part in things that most people wouldn’t, that wasn’t interesting to most Blacks and Hispanics. But they didn’t bother him because he was into sports and had a certain strong nature. I mean, he wasn’t one of these kids that just read all the time, so nobody could just say he was a sissy because he was into sports and did things that other people did. Dance, signified, you know, he was kind of, like, well-rounded, he could do either one. But he didn’t stop what he wanted to do because of his 27 �friends. Because sometimes, junior achievement back then, you couldn’t get many Blacks into that, but he’d go by hisself. He wouldn’t let nobody stop his [00:41:00] advancement in life. He was that type. He wanted to do something, he did. And he wouldn’t wait around, but he tried to encourage people to get into it with him. If they didn’t, he just, you know... He was definitely the lead. He was definitely a man that thought of on his own. JJ: You say he was kind of well-rounded, he liked to dance and everything? Was he an average dancer? BH: No, he was a good dancer. JJ: A pretty good dancer? BH: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm. JJ: What kind of moves, I mean what kinda...? BH: Good, he was good at it. He was good at it. He -- JJ: What was that period? What kind of dancing? BH: Let me see, what was that, Watusi -- JJ: Oh, the Watusi? BH: -- mashed potatoes, all that stuff. Yeah, he was good at it, he didn’t... As he got older, he got more intellectual. But he was always able to communicate because he did things that most people do. [00:42:00] See like you had some people, if they were into being intellectual, they were that alone. By him being in sports and different things, people were able to relate to him because he did more of that, you know, like they did. JJ: And that school that he was going to here, that’s the school that we’re talking 28 �about, right? The one in Maywood? BH: Yeah, we all went to same schools. JJ: Which was Proviso? BH: Yeah, that’s the high school. JJ: Okay, that’s a big high school and so everybody knows each other. BH: Well, it was a big high school, everybody didn’t know each other. I guess most of the Blacks knew each other. JJ: But most of -- BH: But everybody didn’t know each other. JJ: Bue most of the Blacks knew each other BH: Yeah, I guess out of the first -- JJ: So, it was, like, segregated? BH: I guess out of the -- JJ: So it was segregated? BH: Well-- JJ: They didn’t know each other yet. BH: No, the whites knew some of the whites but there were so many because it was segregated in the sense that even though you were going to school with the whites, the Blacks were still in their own world, in their own area. You know what I mean? Blacks were still -- you didn’t read and party with the whites on the weekends. They’d be a little different now. You’d go to basketball games, [00:43:00] the Blacks kind of be with each other, the whites be with each other, you know. They did some things together. You know, like if they would give a 29 �thing at school, sometimes they’d mix but it wasn’t -- No, Blacks mostly stayed because some of the parents, I guess, didn’t want it. So, the Blacks kinda stayed in their own area. So I guess some of the parents didn’t allow -- later on you start seeing couples. Mm-hmm. M1: Yeah, they were slick. BH: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. So -- F1: Excuse me. JJ: That’s all right. F1: Thank you. JJ: So, they started (inaudible) BH: Overall, they did. JJ: Were there any brawls? Any fights at all? (inaudible) BH: Yes. Every night there was a brawl. That’s why they started the cross-section committee. Yeah, the brawls. JJ: The cross-section committee was to what, to...? BH: Stop the riots and [00:44:00] pull students together more. JJ: Because there were riots in the school? BH: Yeah. Every night there were riots. Like most schools back then, you know, you’d have riots, you know, mixed schools. JJ: What year was this? BH: We’re talkin’ about the ’60s, middle ’60s. JJ: Middle ’60s? 30 �BH: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. So there was riots at the school? BH: Lotta schools, you know. Like, you know, schools like not just Proviso. You hear about schools that were mixed in the city. Like Lane Tech would be bussin’ Blacks from different parts of the city. That’s why they had good sports team because Lane Tech was all boys once, but you had people from all over the city goin’ to Lane Tech. And there was in another school in the city, that was Chicago Vocational. They would have riots there because it was mixed. Marshall, when I was going there, turned mostly all Black. But, before me, they tell me it was all Jewish, they tell me. And Farragut was kind of mixed, [00:45:00] so they’d have they little problems. Tilden was kind of mixed. It was all boys when I was around. So yeah, certain schools in the city that they had little problems where they were mixed. You’d hear stories. Lindblom, comin’ to whites and Blacks going through certain areas to go to school. They’d have their little problems. You’d hear about it. JJ: Getting back because we’re gonna kinda of finish up pretty soon. Trying to make a connection in terms of the Young Lords and the Black Panthers -- BH: Mm-hmm. JJ: What do you remember about that? And what was your first contact? BH: My first contact was that you had Blacks and Puerto Ricans coming together. When I used to hear talk about, I guess when the Puerto Rican community started comin’ in Chicago, when I was a kid, they were mostly on the West Side, I think. And I used to hear problems Blacks and Puerto Ricans havin’. [00:46:00] 31 �Fightin’ every night, and I’d hear a lot of that. And I met some Puerto Ricans when I was in college. JJ: You said West Side. Where, around Madison? BH: You know, I don’t know. I just hear Blacks talk about Puerto Ricans and things like that. JJ: What year was this? BH: No, they were Puerto Ricans fighting with knives and you know, different little things. Same thing I hear up in New York. The same things going on up there. They killing one another. Stokely Carmichael talked about that. And I would hear a lot about that. I met some Black Cubans and different things like that. And I found later, was some Black Puerto Ricans. But as I got to know, mingled with Puerto Ricans, they were better than the Mexicans. I got along with them a little better. But like I said, a lot of things, I’d hear. So I’d hear Blacks, they have conflicts over the West Side. Then the Puerto Rican community started moving more, what, north-west or...? [00:47:00] JJ: North-west, yeah. BH: Mm-hmm. I guess the Puerto Rican community started coming to Chicago, that was maybe in the ’50s, maybe. JJ: In the ’50s, they were in the West Side. BH: Yes, they were. I heard a lotta talk about that. JJ: They were around Madison. BH: That’s what I heard a lotta talk about. JJ: Madison kids. 32 �BH: Oh, was it? Yeah, I heard a lot of talk about it. There were a lot of conflicts with Blacks and Puerto Ricans. JJ: Right, right. BH: And my brother, you see, I had, like I said, when I went to college, I got a different perspective. We used to go to Duncan Y, and I met a lot of Puerto Rican guys. And, you know, they were similar to Blacks, if I got to meet ’em, The Mexicans were, if I got to meet them, they were different, too. But Puerto Ricans seemed to be a little more -- I got along with them a lot better. They seemed to be a lot more like us. And a lot of that was just through, you know, looked like everybody was after Blacks. And I’m sure that this sort of kept a lot of people at our throats, you know. Though some of the Black Cubans, you know, it took time to get with them, you know. So [00:48:00] the Black Cubans, they was kinda weird. JJ: But what -- your connection to the Young Lords, specifically? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) BH: Well, when I met the Young Lords, they were okay with me. I was good, you know. I met you and I always thought you were, you know. We always got along. I see you at the office, you know. We’d go up on the roof. JJ: At the office, there... BH: On Madison. JJ: On Madison. BH: Yeah. JJ: Panther office. 33 �BH: Yeah, so okay, you know, I always hear name Cha-cha, and my brother used to always tease and they always said we passed. And they said he could pass because he looked more white than Puerto Ricans. So I would say that, you know, it was okay, but at that time I learned more about different people. I learned more about the Puerto Ricans, you know. And so that was that. Chicago was a funny city because it got all these ethnics, you know. That created a lot of weirdness, you know. Got your Chinese community, Chinatown, your Greektown, Little Italy. And you see [00:49:00] it’s kind of strange because some places I went, Italians felt close to Black people. Some places I went, they didn’t like ’em. And it was kind of, it was all crazy stuff. I met hillbillies with money that didn’t like poor hillbillies in Uptown. I met Hispanics with money that didn’t like, that didn’t care for, Hispanics. You know, Blacks that had a little somethin’ but they lived way south, they didn’t like the West Side Blacks. You know, once a lot of Blacks come here from the South, once they get on their feet and get something, then they kind of look down on the other ones. And I’ve seen that with other nationalities too. So it was kind of strange, you know. So when they put the coalition together, that was really a good thing. Some people didn’t really wanna accept it, you know. But that’s either here or there. Well, I thought Young Lords was a real good thing, you know, because [00:50:00] they suffered. I thought that the coalition was real good. I didn’t have no problem with them. It was kinda hard for me to get used to some of the young patrons because you think about hillbillies, you think about things that happened in the South. But, you know, most of them I got along with that I met. Slim Coleman, I always got along 34 �with him, you know. He was alright, I guess. Some of the Native Americans I met, they were okay ’cause I got a little Native American in me, Cherokee Indian in me. My great-grandmother was Native American. So, you know, after I got there, I thought the coalition was a good thing. I thought it was good. I thought that’s why the system didn’t really want that. That’s something they didn’t really want. They really didn’t want that, you know. And I think that’s what Dr. King [00:51:00] was talkin’ about the poor people’s march in Washington. All those things that they didn’t really want. I thought it was good, but I saw the Young Lords as a positive thing, you know. I know they came out of a gang and into doin’ something political. I heard that they were a gang, but I didn’t know -- I used to hear about the Vice Lords, the Taylor Street Dukes. You heard of them? Used to be an Italian gang and Polish playboys. But I never heard much about the Young Lords as a gang. I knew they were Puerto Rican gangs, but I didn’t. And then the Young Lords they’ve made today, you know. I’m kind of interested. So they were a gang at first. JJ: Yeah. BH: (laughs) I had a cousin that was a midget Vice Lord, you know. So what, did the Young Lords start over on the West Side? Or they started...? JJ: No, no. Lincoln Park. Lincoln Park. BH: Oh, ok. JJ: Lincoln Park in Old Town. [00:52:00] BH: So when the Puerto Rican population come here, when they were running wild over there on the West Side, did they have Puerto Rican gangs over there? 35 �JJ: There was a Puerto Rican population on [Lisle?] and Chicago, everything. BH: I think I heard that. I remember that. JJ: And then that moved to Lincoln Park. BH: Oh, ok. JJ: It went to -- BH: But when the -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) BH: -- but when the Puerto Ricans on the West Side, did they have any gangs? JJ: Oh, yeah, there were gangs all the time because we were right in front -- BH: But not no known gangs really, huh? JJ: We were right in front of the Italians and Irish, so we were fighting them too. You know, at that same time. BH: Talkin’ about when you on the West Side? JJ: Yeah, no. As the neighborhood was changing, we were fighting the newcomers. BH: Oh, ok. Oh. JJ: They were the newcomers. BH: So you were fighting the Italians too and all that, yeah. JJ: Yeah, we were fighting them too. BH: Hmm. JJ: And they were probably fighting other people too, and it just an -- (break in audio) BH: They were battling, huh. JJ: Yeah, everybody was battling, you know, the youth. If you’re from Chicago, 36 �you’re in the gang, I guess. BH: Uh-huh. JJ: But then over here, [00:53:00] Freddy’s in the NAACP and he’s doing a lot of political stuff already at that age. What got you into the political stuff? I mean, were your parents involved or...? BH: Not a whole lot, they just was union workers. JJ: And they were union workers. BH: Right. And then they would always keep up with things that were goin’ on. JJ: In the union? BH: No, just keep up with things in the world. We always was interested in what was going on, so it wasn’t no surprise that we got into it. My brother made a big step with the Panthers, had to make the big step like he did. We were always interested in what King was doing and things like that. We were followin’ it. Lotta people did, but a lotta people really didn’t get into it that deep. Because a lot of people weren’t in that nonviolent kick. And then some people thought that Malcolm X was going too fast. So yeah, it was always on how am I, the political thing. It was always [00:54:00] ’cause I kept up with everything and knew who was doing what, you know. And then finally I just felt that I had to get out there with ’em because you’d go to school and people talk about what would happen. You know, you hear things about Selma, you’d experience different things. And some people had saw this stuff for so long, they just looked at it as a way of everyday life. They got captivated, “Well okay, I don’t like what they -- you know, I went downtown, and I went in this neighborhood and they did that.” But they 37 �get in their own neighborhood and I guess they felt safe and just said, “Well, it ain’t gonna change. Just give up.” So I think that’s, what, after I saw the Stokely Carmichaels and the Kings and all of that. Say well hey, I better not just talk about how bad they’re doing, just be a part of it in some kind of way. [00:55:00] And since I got involved with it, I like it. I like it. I guess it’s in my blood now. JJ: What are some of your plans for the scholarship? BH: To keep giving them out and maybe to extend it to other fields. We gotta get the money, you know, because with this Bush administration, a lot of our funds got cut. So we get funds but it’s nothing like we used to. So we just want to keep giving funds and build it even bigger. JJ: Was the bust of Fred Hampton, was that part of the scholarship fund? BH: No, I raised some money myself, but the community State Rep Karen Yarbrough was able to allocate the money, and the village of Maywood gave some so they were able to, the committee, people of [00:56:00] Maywood voted on it, the council that helped some of the money. They would give money to do that. JJ: So you got the whole council of Maywood working on renaming the pool Fred Hampton. BH: Yeah, they voted on it. Matter fact, when they named the pool after Fred, we had a white mayor. And it was three white -- it was six trustees. Three whites voted against it, three Blacks voted for it. Then the mayor come in and break the tie. He caught hell for it too. (laughs) They didn’t reelect him either. I felt sorry for him. We stayed close, but he caught hell for that. ’Cause he knew Fred and he had a good... So that was just right. You weren’t out here that night. You had a 38 �lot of ex-Panthers out here. It was all jammed when they made this, oh boy, whites on one side and Blacks, oh boy, it was something else. It was really something. You know, it was some [00:57:00] kind of night. That was not long after Fred got killed in the ’70s, they named the pool. M1: Yep, they did it. JJ: When did people start again being active? For a while they were not active. I think we tried to do something up north with the aldermanic campaign. I don’t know if you remember it from that time during ’75 or...? BH: I remember that, yeah. I think when people become active again, it might have been like the late ’70s when the Reagan thing start comin’ in. It kind of forced people to kinda get a little bit active. Then Harold Washington, he not only won the mayor, he sorta, like -- a movement was built around him. Brought a movement back to life a little bit, I think. Don’t you think so? JJ: Oh yeah. BH: You know, it kinda came back to movement days beginnin’ to come back. It’s just [00:58:00] that people weren’t working as close as they used to. ’Cause I remember when that was a problem, a crazy killing or something in the community, even though they didn’t agree, I remember the NAACP and Panthers and [CORE?] and everybody all on the same stage. Well, Young Lords, you know, gangs, ’cause everybody wanted to get together and do something about it. Now it’s this kinda like, you don’t have that now. Maybe tryin’ to get back there, but you don’t have that enthusiasm then. JJ: Okay, we’ll kind of finish it up a little bit. What do you think we missed that we 39 �need to kinda bring out? Fred Hampton, in terms of his legacy and that, that you wanted to bring out. BH: If I may, if people wanna keep Fred’s legacy alive, that people have to, [00:59:00] just in simple form, remember his dedication, remember to be real men and women, to stand up, and not be sold out. ’Cause I think that’s what Fred -- Fred didn’t sell out. I think you couldn’t buy him, and I think what people have to realize is that, you know, they can just stand up as men and women, don’t have to be bought out. I think a lot of people are using excuses to be bought out. I think that that’s just something that Fred wouldn’t go for ’cause I think that people gotta realize if they got to be bought out to become of a certain political position, they don’t need it. Because if you gonna do one thing one way, then you hypocritical. You’re not gonna do it another way. So we need to make our leaders, as Fred would have did, more accountable. We need to make ’em more accountable. JJ: Okay. BH: I think [01:00:00] people should keep the work that Fred, the Panthers, the Young Lords did, I’m serious, they need to keep it alive, is not let it die. Keep it alive. You know, do something every year to bring the focus out, to keep the young people from running around. And some old people who got the wrong information, give them the right information. I think they need to keep it going. JJ: Okay. END OF VIDEO FILE 40 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d4a2c06746311c6c22a76294e12422d5.mp4 105f75a73ce83e1b67afe0f56f8ad76f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Bill Hampton vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Bill Hampton era un maestro en las escuelas de Chicago y también el hermano de Fred Hampton, quien fue el vicepresidente de la sección del Black Panther Party en Illinois. Fred Hampton fue asesinado en la mañana del 4 de Diciembre 1969 por un equipo especial de policía. Bill Hampton creció en Maywood, Illinois, donde organizo un a conmemoración anual en recuerdo de su hermano que fue atendido por líderes del cívico y la comunidad. En Maywood, Señor Hampton corre un programa de seguridad en el tráfico y como director de Midwest Voter Aliance, organizo y coordino para Barak Obama durante su primera ves corriendo por presidente. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Afro-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Hampton, Fred, 1948-1969 Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capítulo Relaciones raciales Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Hampton_Bill Title A name given to the resource Bill Hampton video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hampton, Bill Description An account of the resource Bill Hampton is a former Chicago public school teacher and the brother of Fred Hampton, Deputy Chairman of the Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party who was murdered by a special police squad in an early morning raid on December 4, 1969. Bill Hampton grew up in Maywood, Illinois, where he organizes an annual commemoration event for his brother. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) African Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Hampton, Fred, 1948-1969 Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Race relations Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-09 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9ee5090284814523ac0d0cf5c97cd83c.pdf fda19d8c8ffd700d0569e254113f4f23 PDF Text Text Young   L ords   In  Lincoln  Park   Interviewee:  Dennis  Cunningham   Interviewers:  Jose  Jimenez   Location:  Grand  Valley  State  University  Special  Collections   Date:  10/4/2016   Runtime:  01:16:40         Biography  and  Description   Oral  history  of  Dennis  Cunningham,  interviewed  by  Jose  “Cha-­‐Cha”  Jimenez  on  October  04,  2016  about   the  Young  Lords  in  Lincoln  Park.   Dennis  co-­‐founded  the  People’s  Law  Office  originally  located  in  Lincoln  Park,,  Chicago  at  2156   North  Halsted  Street.  These  were  movement  lawyers  who  began  working  with  the  Lawyer’s  Guild   at  the  1968  Democratic  convention  protests.  Later  they  took  on  court  cases  of  the  Panthers,  Young   Lords  and  New  Left.  In  1969,  the  People’s  Law  Offices  negotiated  for  the  Young  Lords  during  their   McCormick  Theological  Seminary  take-­‐over  and  received  $25,000  in  seed  money  after  the  Young   Lords  won  all  of  their  demands.  It  included  $650,000  for  low  income  housing  investment  and   $50,000  to  open  up  two  free  health  clinics  In  1973  Dennis  moved  to  New  York  to  work  on  the  Attica   Prison  Riot  cases..  Here  he  discusses  a  major  case  of  the  People’s  Law  Office:  the  assassination  trial   of  Chairman  Fred  Hampton  of  the  Black  Panther  Party.   �Dennis  was  born  in  Chicago  in  the  suburbs.  At  age  15  he  studied  at  the  University  of  Chicago  and   went  to  work  as  a  journalist  and  then  a  bartender  for  Second  City  where  he  met  and  married  his   actress  wife,  Mona.  By  the  age  of  27  he  considered  himself  a  drop  out  from  society  and  went  with   Filmmaker  Howard  Alk  to  the  march  on  Washington  just  to  observe.  He  then  entered  law  School  at   Loyola  and  began  working  at  city  hall  for  Mayor  Richard  J.  Daley  in  human  relations,  on  Panic   Pedaling  cases.  Black  and  White  realtors  would  frighten  White  homeowners  into  selling  by  telling   them  that  Blacks  were  moving  in  and  it  would  lower  their  property  values.  He  soon  left  because  it   was  planned  and  a  smoke  screen  with  few  convictions.  When  the  riots  occurred  after  Martin  Luther   King  was  murdered,  Dennis  recalls  going  to  the  courthouse  and  jail  at  26th  and  California  and   witnessing,  “another  world.”  He  said  that  it  was  chaotic  with  inmates  living  outside  in  the  yard  and   that  it  literally  took  him  three  days  to  locate  a  prisoner  who  he  was  trying  to  bond  out.  The  police   were  “vindictive  and  dangerous,”  he  said.   He  remembers  marching  down  Division  with  Chairman  Fred  Hampton,  in  the  Young  Lords  Manuel   Ramos  March.  Manuel  was  killed  by  an  off  duty  policeman  and  the  march  was  10,000  strong.  An   unmarked  police  car  u-­‐turned  and  drove  on  top  of  the  sidewalk,  staring  both  he  and  Fred  Hampton   down.  The  rest  of  the  oral  history  focuses  on  the  Hampton  Trial.   �Transcript DENNIS CUNNINGHAM: And I remember the Manuel Ramos March. I remember going to Church, but I don’t know which of those came first. You know? (break in audio) JOSE JIMENEZ: Your name and where you were born and then how you came to be connected to the Young Lords. DC: Okay. All right? JJ: Yeah. DC: My name is Dennis Cunningham. I come from Chicago. I was born there in 1936. I grew up more in the suburbs than the city, but I left when I was, like, 15 to go to school at the University of Chicago. They had this program to get in there early. That took me out of the suburbs altogether. Up here, too. And, you know, I got [00:01:00] out of college, and I had a job. I got a job as a journalist ’cause that was sort of what I always thought I was gonna do. But I didn’t like it much at all, you know? And I was -- I had this girlfriend. She had gone to France. I went to France. I stayed a year -- for a couple years. And I came back -- I was, like, this was -- we’re talking about the middle of the ’50s. And I was like what you would call a dropout, really, then. And I came back, and I worked on Rush Street, you know, [where I was a?] bartender. And I got involved with Second City. And at first, I was a bartender there. Then I was in the company. And my friend, Howard Alk, and I decided we should go to the March on Washington to see it, you know, for the spectacle. [So I we rode in on those trains?]. [00:02:00] I told this in one of the workshops that, you know, on 1 �the way back, he says, we get should get involved in this stuff. And I was kind of thunderstruck by that notion, you know? Because the whole point of being a dropout is you ain’t involved in anything, you know? But that really was like a revelation, you know? ’Cause I didn’t know -- by that time, I’m 27 years old. I’m married. I got a new baby. I didn’t -- and I was kind of done at the Second City. They were downsizing, and I was fringe, and there wasn’t [really?] too much future there. And so I got this idea to be a lawyer. I said if I was a lawyer, I could be involved, but I could still make a living, you know, and I could be connected and have something to give more than my body. I can’t go out there and lay in the street ’cause I got a wife and kid, I got to deal with all that. JJ: [00:03:00] [And you were married? Was it for a long time?]? DC: No, we had only been married a year. And then the baby came, and -- JJ: [What was her name?]? DC: Mona Mellis. JJ: And the baby’s name? DC: And the baby, Delia. She came in June of ’63. And then we went, August, on the March, and September, I’d gotten my way into Loyola Law School. JJ: And she’s an attorney, too? DC: Huh? JJ: She’s an attorney, too? DC: No, she’s not an attorney. She was an actress at Second City. JJ: (inaudible) __: (inaudible) 2 �DC: And -- __: [I think they’re working on the --?] DC: You know, then -- __: (inaudible) DC: -- I went to law school for four years. I went at night. I’d work in the daytime. I had -- and got another kid and another kid. And by the time I got out, you know, I wasn’t that political, even, then. I mean, I had [00:04:00] this notion, this general notion, but I wasn’t tuned in to the politics of what was going on that much. I tell you what happened. I worked for a couple of years there while I was in school. I worked for the city of Chicago. I was working for Mayor Daley, and I was in the Commission on Human Relations. And I was a human relations officer on ’54, ’55, ’56. JJ: (inaudible) [office?]. DC: Yeah. And I -- __: It’s okay. DC: You know, we would go out and investigate complaints of discrimination by real estate brokers or by hospitals and stuff like that, ’cause there was an ordinance. And we’d work up the cases as investigators and bring it to the human relations commission. They’d white wash it. But the only time they didn’t white wash it was when that was against a Black real estate agent or broker for panic [00:05:00] pedaling, you know, trying to get the white people to move out so the Black people could move in to -- block by block on the south side. It was happening like crazy. I mean, it was the main thing they were concerned about, 3 �what they call panic pedaling, because people would go to the white neighborhoods on the fringe of the ghetto, which was just expanding and expanding, and they’d say, you’d better sell now because the Black people -- two more Black people move in your block, your property value is gonna go right down, and they went for it in mass hordes, you know? And white real estate brokers would sort of get away with it, give ’em a slap on the wrist. The Black ones, they’d really -- they’d fine ’em. I think there was one guy lost his license. JJ: And Daley was doing it. DC: Daley was doing -- JJ: [He was fining them?]. DC: Yeah, yeah. JJ: [But it was his plan?]. DC: Yeah, well, the commission did it, and the commission was sort of independent, and they had [00:06:00] liberals on it, a couple. But they would always find a reason to let people off the hook, you know? And then all that Ben Willis stuff started to happen. Ben Willis was the superintendent of the schools. He started taking money outta the Black schools, and people started in -- and for a while, they were demonstrating every day. There’d be a big march every day. It started Navy Pier, I think. I can’t remember. Al Raby was the organizer of that. And I would get a sign, a lot of times, to go and just monitor the march. I remember [I did?] a whole march through Cabrini-Green, me and Dick Gregory. And he was - he would march, you know, and I got started talking to him. And, you know, he had all these comments about what’s going on. But, you know -- and then Martin 4 �Luther King came to Chicago with the campaign to end slums there. And he [00:07:00] marched in Gage Park, and he got hit with a brick, you know? JJ: [Did you march with him?]? DC: No, I wasn’t there. No, that -- I wanted to go, but they had another division in the office of the guys -- couple of Black guys they had on the staff that would go to those things. But that was in ’66, and by that time, I really had enough. [There’s our books?]. Can we stop for a sec? JJ: Sure. DC: Jeff. (break in audio) JJ: We were talking about -- DC: It was ’66. King left, you know? He had a sit-down, and Mayor Daley talked stuff. And they took the opportunity to get the hell outta there, the whole SCLC because it was -- I mean, they’d bitten of more than they could chew in Chicago. They didn’t know what they were getting into, I think, [00:08:00] in the whole -- I mean, no blame, because it came out like an eruption, the racism in those communities, and the anger. And it was astounding, you know, in that sense that it was so virulent and so nasty. JJ: So how many years were you there? DC: I was there two -- about two full years. And then I said I’m not -- you know, I can’t be a part of this no more, you know? And I walked -- JJ: [Why did you feel that way]? 5 �DC: Just because it was too much suppressing the movement, you know? And it was too hypocritical, and it was too -- JJ: [Well, how were they suppressing the movement? By whitewashing it, or?] -- DC: No, no, they’d kind of -- if they would march, the cops wouldn’t give ’em the protection. If they would [00:09:00] sit in some place -- I mean, I don’t really remember the details. It was just they couldn’t get any place, and they couldn’t get any rhythm trying to talk to people about let’s do this or let’s do that about the slums here. No, they said, “Let’s do this about the outside agitators. You know, let’s get ’em outta here.” And they did. They got the message, and they’d be beating their heads against the wall there, or worse, because the environment -the atmosphere was so hostile, you know? And because, I think, they couldn’t see a way through it, you know? They couldn’t see a strategic approach that would actually pay off, as opposed to just get ’em in deeper and deeper repression. And, I mean, I’m saying that, [00:10:00] and I really don’t know. I mean, that’s just my recollection of the sense I had of what was happening. And I don’t know if anybody’s really written that much about it, but I -- when I think about it, and I think I’d like to see if anybody has, you know? And see what people said that were on the inside of the movement. Anyway, you know, then I went to work as a clerk for a lawyer that I knew. And -- JJ: What lawyer? DC: His name was Mitchell Edelson. JJ: (inaudible) 6 �DC: Junior. And he showed me a lot of the stuff, which came in handy. And then when I graduated -- well, I graduated in the spring, and I got sworn in in the fall, like November of ’67. And -- JJ: [As a student of a university?]? DC: Loyola. [00:11:00] JJ: Loyola. That’s right. DC: Loyola, yeah, which was not the fancy skyscrapers that you see today. It was this crappy, three-story building on the same corner, there at Pearson and Wabash. And it also was not the kind of public interest stuff that has developed there since then. They’ve got a lot of stuff going on. And the school has grown, and they have international practice, and they have all these clinics, and they have all this stuff, you know? They got a lot of money. I don’t know where. But, you know, I had a sign on my house. And I had one guy, a neighbor, you know, and he had some problem buying his house. And I was -- oh my God, what am I getting myself into here, you know? And I worked with Neighborhood Commons. Remember them? [00:12:00] JJ: [Explain what you mean by Neighborhood Commons?]. DC: Richard Brown and them. JJ: [They kind?] (inaudible) -- DC: That was a -- JJ: [They were?] divide and conquer. [They were?] (inaudible) -- DC: They were -- JJ: Neighborhood Commons was against -- 7 �DC: Was against urban renewal and stuff, yeah. They were trying to hold the mixture in that territory from north of North Avenue, mainly, you know, coming up the Armitage. And they bought some buildings, and then different people could move in, different mixed families and stuff like that. And, yeah, Richard was their go-to guy. And he -- JJ: (inaudible) -- no, not (inaudible). Richard -- DC: Dick Brown. JJ: Dick Brown. DC: Yeah, yeah. And there was a couple reverends, [Neal Scheidel?]. He lived right down the street from me. I mean, we lived just right down Dayton from the Church. [00:13:00] And that was -- we were, like, on the borderline, you know? There were Black people beyond us, and there was white people short of us. But what they wanted to do -- we’d been involved in that, like, as residents of the community when they were pushing the urban renewal along North Avenue. And the Commons got involved in it, and they said, you know, they finally changed it all, and the Neighborhood Commons built a bunch of the -- or sponsored with the city. JJ: (inaudible) DC: They’d built the whole raft of townhouses and stuff there, two- or three-story apartment buildings and with mixed residencies. But it was also still a border. The ghetto wasn’t gonna go any further north, you know? And Puerto Rican people that were living in Lincoln Park were already getting squeezed out, you 8 �know, because it was already -- people were [00:14:00] -- you know, the -- what’d they call, the flight from the suburbs? JJ: (inaudible) DC: People want to live in the city. They want to live near downtown, and -- JJ: [They made an inner city suburb?]. DC: Yeah, yeah, exactly. That’s exactly -- JJ: To bring them back to the [burb?]. DC: -- what they did. They’d bring them back. And so then I was just there those couple of months. And then Martin Luther King was murdered. And then there were all these sweeps, those huge National Guard sweeps and shit in streets. They locked up, like, 8,000 or 9,000 people in two or three days. They had them in the yard -- JJ: (inaudible) DC: -- at the Cook County jail, just people -- just in the yard. And they didn’t know who they had. They didn’t know nothing except they had, you know, swept -done sweeps on different blocks and took everybody that they found. [00:15:00] And most of them, they would arrest them in the street, but then they would say that they had arrested them inside a building and charge ’em with burglary. So they had all these thousands of Black people -- JJ: Change the complaint? Or -- DC: They just said it from the beginning. “This is a burglary. This guy was in there.” “I wasn’t ever in that building.” “Yes, you were.” And so they had probably 3,000, 4,000 people charged with felonies coming outta that thing. And then they -- over 9 �the course of the next few months, they made deals with all of ’em. We’ll give you probation. You can get out of jail. But now you got a felony on your record. And people went for it, you know? They had to get out. They had been walking - going to the store, everything. And there was a guy from the neighborhood that had been mixed up with Neighborhood Commons, [Ed Brownell?]. [00:16:00] And had been caught in a sweep, and nobody knew where he was, and nobody could find him. And I went to the county jail, and I said -- you know, they said, well, we got him here somewhere. And I sat in that jail for two, three days waiting for them to find this guy so I could bond him out. I’m getting a red-hot introduction, you know, to how it really works. I had been in the criminal court of 26th Street one time when I was still clerking for this dude. And he had a guy -- a Black guy that worked for him, [did runs?] -- serve subpoenas and shit like that that got busted in some kind of stupid shit. And he couldn’t go to court one day, so he sent me out there, you know? And I didn’t know what the hell to do. I’m just sitting there watching. Gets all the way to the end of the call. They finally call this guy’s case. And I think -- I had talked to the prosecutor. He said, [00:17:00] “We ain’t gonna do nothing with that guy, you know? We’re gonna just postpone the case.” So I told him he could go home. So I come up front [of Judge Ryan?]. He says, “Well, where’s the defendant?” I said, “Well, Judge, I told him he could go home.” He said, “You sent him home?” I said, “Well, yeah. You’re gonna give a continuum.” He said, “I’mma lock you up back there.” (laughs) So, I mean, that’s like another world, 26th Street, you know? But I got started going there. I went a lot more after that, but then the next thing that happened was that the 10 �Lawyers Guild came to Chicago to recruit people, lawyers, to deal with the convention because they knew that everybody was gonna come and sit in and shit. And they -- so they were looking for lawyers to line them up in advance to do that. [00:18:00] Bernardine Dohrn was the delegate for the operative from the guild that came out to organize that. So I said, “I’ll do it.” And we had a committee. And I said this in the workshop, you know? Two weeks after the convention, me and Ted Stein are sitting in this office. We got 300 cases, and nobody is there anymore, you know? All the defendants are gone, and all the lawyers are gone, and we don’t, either of us, know a damn thing, you know? We’re just as green as the grass. And we’re gonna -- what are we gonna do with all these cases? And I started going to trial in a bunch of cases that they wouldn’t postpone, but they were all infractions, so you don’t get a jury. So they were quick, but what you do get to do is cross-examine the cop about the circumstances of the election. So I got all this experience. [00:19:00] I must’ve tried 20, 25 cases in -- from, you know, September -JJ: (inaudible) [with infractions, there’s no trial?]? DC: Right. It’s like a petty offense, and the most you can get is six months in jail. And the Supreme Court says if that’s the worst that can happen to you, you’re not entitled to a lawyer, you know, an appointed lawyer or anything. Different ones had lawyers. And then we became lawyers for a lot of ’em. And so that was like a training ground for me. And then, you know, right toward the end of ’68, Howard Alk, again, had -- he had met the Panthers and asked if they didn’t want 11 �to make a movie about themselves. And they said, “Yeah, we do.” And so he and -- him and Mike Gray had started just following ’em around, filming. And -JJ: [00:20:00] (inaudible) DC: Huh? JJ: Mike who? DC: Mike Gray. JJ: Oh, Mike Gray. DC: Yeah. And they said -- and then Howard -- I ran into Howard, and he says, “Man, I met the Black Panthers, you know?” He said, “They need lawyers.” I said, ”No kidding, you know?” I said. So he took me to meet ’em. I went to the office. I met Fred. I met Bobby Rush. I met some of the guys. And they said, “Yeah, that’s -- you know, we’re getting hassled all the time. Guys are getting locked up. People who we’re trying to work with in the community are getting locked up for hanging around us. We need lawyers.” So I said, “Well, I’ll help you. And I got some friends I think might be able to help. Just let me know what’s happening.” And I told the story today, too, the other -- no, it was today. JJ: (inaudible) DC: All of a sudden I get a phone call at the end of January, start of February. I get a phone call one day, [00:21:00] and it’s this big voice [on it?], says, “Mr. Cunningham?” I said, “Yeah?” “This is Judge Connely.” He says, “You represent Fred Hampton?” And I said, “Well, yeah. I guess I do.” And he said, “Well, you’ll be here at nine o’clock in the morning because you’re going to trial.” I said, “Okay.” I showed up, and we did go to trial. And it was a case of them doing a 12 �demonstration in Maywood about the swimming pool. And there were two other people arrested with him. One of them was, like, a local -- a Black guy who was a dentist or something, well-established citizen, but who had, you know, supported the protest. And they had had this march to the city council meeting in Maywood. And a few of them went inside. They wouldn’t let the rest of ’em inside, [00:22:00] so crowd got a little bit unruly outside, and they shot out a bunch of tear gas. The tear gas went inside the council chambers, and all the people were weeping. They had to can the meeting. I think it came in while Fred was speaking to them about the swimming pool. And so they charged him with mob action. And this dentist, Ivory, Dr. Ivory, he was in the case, and some other dude. And so then, when I got to the trial, it turned out Jim Montgomery was representing Dr. Ivory, who was an upstanding citizen and could pay a fee. And he was plenty experienced, so all I had to do was just kinda lay and copy him, you know? ’Cause I -- from the very start of the voir dire, I’d never been through any of it. I mean, like I say, I’d tried all these no-jury cases. [00:23:00] They’re very different things. And somehow we got through it. I just -- you know, I would literally -- I mean, you’d change the questions a little bit, but he would examine a guy, and then I would examine him. And then the public defender had the third guy, and he would just kinda lay it out. And it was a lot of stumping through it. Took a couple of days. But then in the closing arguments, I got all carried away, and I’m saying, “They got tear gas in the city council chambers. You know they gotta hold somebody responsible and make somebody the scapegoat, and that’s the scapegoat right there, and you can’t let them, blah, blah, blah.” And he was 13 �acquitted. And so that was really great, you know? And that’s --[00:24:00] and he felt good. I felt good. Everybody felt good. But the next thing I knew, a couple of months later, all of a sudden, he was on trial on that ice cream case. And I hadn’t even known about that. He hadn’t said anything to me about that. And in fact, I think there had been a -- at least one incident with the cops in between, like one of those raids on the office or some other thing, a confrontation in the street, so that there was -JJ: Well he was arrested(inaudible) DC: Yeah. JJ: (inaudible) DC: Yeah, but I think that was later in the year. JJ: [Was it later?]? DC: That was more -- JJ: (inaudible) DC: There -- JJ: The month between February and March. (inaudible) February 12. DC: In ’69. JJ: Yeah. DC: Yeah, okay. JJ: (inaudible) DC: Well, that was right around that time, yeah. Well, so then he had that case, too, you know? And -- JJ: (inaudible) [00:25:00] 14 �DC: But then he was in this ice cream case with this other lawyer -- JJ: (inaudible) DC: -- and it was kinda weak, you know? Yeah. JJ: (laughs) DC: She -- anyway, he went down in that case. And what happened right in the middle of the case, they realized who they were dealing with, so they brought in some senior guy, and he just went off about Fred. And then they got Fred on the witness stand. They asked him, was he a revolutionary communist? He said, “Yeah. You know it.” And did he believe in the violent overthrow -- “Yeah.” JJ: (laughs) DC: And the judge -- I knew the judge. I had this other case with him. And he told me during the trial, he’s -- “Ah, this case is horse shit. I’ll give him probation if (inaudible).” But after they sent the big dogs in there, he wound up giving him two to five. And then he went off to Menard. [00:26:00] And then we worked and worked for a couple of months and finally got him out. But the quid pro quo for getting him out was that they would have an accelerated schedule for the appeal, so we had to write the brief immediately -- I mean, usually, appeal would take a year and a half, two years. This one took three months, two months. Had a -- he said, “You get the brief in here in a couple of weeks,” and da, da, da, and boom. So he was going back to prison. He had, I think, I don’t know, 8 or 10 more days before he was -- the mandate said he had to report. And that was over the time when he was murdered. But also, during that time, I had got appendicitis, and was in the hospital, and then I was home. I couldn’t move. They cut me down 15 �the middle instead of just going in there by your hip, you know? He said, “Oh, it might [00:27:00] be your gallbladder, so we’ll just go --” you know, guy -- he’s got 12 interns that are watching him, and he’s one of these big -JJ: [Training them?]? DC: -- barrel-chested, white-haired assholes, jaw coming out to here. But I was really laid up, you know? And I was still laid out on the night he was killed. I couldn’t really -- I got up outta bed and went to the funeral. It was, like, a week later. And I had to go back and stay in bed all the way through the holidays. Or maybe not that long because we started having meetings, and they were going to court, and they started that coroner’s inquest, I think, after the first of the year. And by that time, I was back, and I was part of that. And then all that stuff happened, you know, [00:28:00] that spring of 1970, when there was all this behind-the-scenes stuff happening with Hanrahan and the FBI or the US Attorney’s office because they had a federal grand jury. And they were really trying to look into it. But they made a deal, you know? Okay, which we later found out about in a document, that the Panthers case -- the charges against the Panthers would be dismissed, and no cops would be indicted. Then they had a special prosecutor in the state system later, Barney Sears, but that was, like, another year or two before that all happened because a bunch of the cops did get indicted, but it was for, like, lying on a police report, and it was obstruction of justice [00:29:00] and nothing about the murder. JJ: And so nobody went to jail for (inaudible)? 16 �DC: No, no. The survivors of the raid were freed, and those charges were dropped. And the grand jury, instead of indicting the cops, issued this special report saying how fucked up the police procedures had been used in the raid and this and that, and everything was wrong with it, but we’re not gonna charge anybody individual ’cause it’s just, like, the system malfunctioning. If you can think of anything more insincere. JJ: [If you can kind of? How did] (inaudible)? DC: Well, we -- right in that period, we were representing most of the survivors. We had some of our pals, Jo-anne Wolfson, Warren Wolfson. They took one or two of the people. Montgomery had [Deborah?]. [00:30:00] I forget who else, but we had three or four of ’em. And then we decided we had to start a civil suit about the raid and about the killing. And we did that, but we -- again, we were so green, we really didn’t know how to do it. And we got some help from the Center for Constitutional Rights in New York. We knew those people a little bit. JJ: (inaudible) DC: You know, here’s what you gotta put in the complaint, and here’s what you gotta do. And it wasn’t only them. Kermit Coleman helped us. He was the ACLU guy. And we got the complaint filed. And I forget how quick it was, but it wasn’t too long before the judge threw it out. So now we’re in the appeals court. And the people -- again, [00:31:00] the New York people were helping us. And we got that reversed and got the complaint reinstated. In the meantime, we’re dealing with all these other Panther cases. But now him and me and a couple other guys -- Skip Andrew. You remember him? 17 �JJ: (inaudible) DC: And we were starting to go to 26th Street a lot, and we were getting other cases, and we were trying to support ourselves with the bond slips. And that sorta just went on. And then the stuff happened at Attica. And we had a big fight in the office. By that time, we had opened the office. We opened the office in August of ’69. JJ: (inaudible) DC: [00:32:00] Do what? JJ: [Go ahead and tell them about the office?]? DC: The office -- after I met Fred and Bobby, I came back -- we had started, ’cause -I need to go back. When we were the Chicago Legal Defense Committee, dealing with all the busts from the convention, is when me and Ted Stein -- and Ted says one day, “Well, I heard about these people in New York. They started a firm just to represent the movement.” I said -- it’s like another light bulb you know? And so we started having meetings. I remember him, ’cause me and him had met Jeff Haas about the -- around the Martin Luther King stuff. We had both had this same idea, you know? We’d go down to the 11th and State in the evening and help the people who had got busted during the day, you know? And they weren’t [00:33:00] giving ’em too much play, you know? I got a sign [I think?] I was -- you know, we went and found whoever was there, the lawyers that were -already knew anything. And he said, “Just go here, go there, da, da, da.” And I wound up in a stairwell at 11th and State where they pulled the desk in there, and they put the judge in there. And they started bringing the juveniles through. And 18 �it was the state’s attorney and me and the judge and cops. And they’d keep bringing these kids. And if the kids’ parents were there, he’d tell ’em to go home with the parents. If they weren’t, lock ’em up, and it didn’t matter what the hell I said, you know? I was like a potted plant in here. And they took a break at some point, and I started wandering around. I went into a court room, and there he was, and he was standing up in a real court room. He was standing up at the podium, and he was waving his arms and hollering at the judge. I said, [00:34:00] “Whoa,” you know? So then when this idea of having an office, that’s the first guy I thought of. So we started having these meetings, and that’s when I met Fred and Bobby. JJ: You and Ted Stein? DC: Me, Ted, Jeff -- JJ: Well, I mean, you had [Ted with you?]. DC: Yeah, yeah. And I don’t remember -- he might not’ve been at the first couple of meetings. And Skip Andrew and Don Stang. I don’t think there was anybody else. Kadish was involved in it, but that was later. JJ: (inaudible) DC: Later -- you know, months later on. And then after I met Fred and Bobby and they said, “We need lawyers,” I went back the next meeting. I said, “Well, if we do go ahead and start an office, we get the Black Panther party as our clients, you know?” And he said, “All right. Let’s go.” [00:35:00] So by -- pretty much by January, we had decided we would do it. And we started seeing what we can -what we were gonna do, how we were gonna work it out. But in the meantime, 19 �we started representing the Panthers. And they were getting busted, and I remember almost the first case, beside that one where the judge called me up, was two guys that they had just met. And they were just starting to talk to him about the Panthers, and they got busted on some bullshit, and they were locked up. And two, three people went to work to try and get ’em out, you know, and work on their cases and stuff. And we’re like, okay. How we were ever gonna get paid, we just -- in some miraculous way, we -- all those guys -- and it was all guys at that point -- all white guys. One way or another [00:36:00] -- I mean, two or three were working -- he was working for legal aid. They were working in some program, Skip and Don, at -- I think at Northwestern University. But they were lawyers. And somehow, we kept tabling the issue of how we were gonna support ourselves. We got the store in the summer and got it fixed up, put in a concrete gun emplacement. JJ: [When was this]? DC: The store, I think we opened it in August. JJ: [When was it?]? DC: Sixty-nine -- 2156 North Halsted, right on the corner of Webster, right next to Glascott’s Bar, there. JJ: And it was in October of ’69 or ’68? DC: August, we opened it, ’69. JJ: Sixty-nine. DC: Sixty-nine. JJ: And then -- 20 �DC: I mean, Fred was already -- JJ: (inaudible) before that -- DC: -- convicted -- no, we were -- JJ: [You were?] meeting there -- DC: Yeah, we were meeting, and [00:37:00] we were gonna do it. JJ: You were meeting [in private?]. DC: Yeah, yeah. And we were going to court. JJ: (inaudible) DC: Maybe. JJ: Just kinda takes -- DC: ’Cause your stuff started to come in about that time, right? JJ: [About the same time, yeah?]. DC: And we didn’t have a problem thinking, well, this is more of the same, you know? We were just gonna deal with it. I don’t know, you know? Looking back from different perspectives of the time since then, it really was extraordinary that it all came together the way it did and that we launched ourselves into that without having any idea of how we were gonna support ourselves, you know? Just some kind of way. I had -- after the King riots, through the Neighborhood Commons, [then Meister Brau?] come -- he came around, said, “Gee, [00:38:00], you know, we like to be felt like we’re part of the community. What can we do to help you folks?” They said, “Well, we got this lawyer. He’s helping us, and don’t have any income, so why don’t you give him a stipend?” So he came to me and said, “Well, how much should we tell ’em to give you?” I’m like, what do I need, or what do I 21 �believe they’ll agree to, you know? So I went low, like a fool. But at least it was a little something, you know? And me and Mona had bought this house on Dayton Street. And the mortgage was about half of it. It was $300 a month I was getting, and the mortgage, I think, was $147 a month. Phew. But then -- so we went through all that stuff, and we went through the appeal [00:39:00] and the civil case about Fred. And we were doing more criminal work. And then, when the Attica stuff happened, before it happened, we had gone to a -- all of us or many of us had been at a Lawyers Guild convention in Boulder, Colorado, which was an occasion where there was a big struggle in the organization about letting law students become members or letting legal workers become members. There had been -- at the previous convention, there was a struggle about law students, and the youth outvoted the older people, who said, “Oh, you can’t do that, you know? You’ll invalidate all our credibility as a bar association. Can’t have students be members.” So now, this time, it was about having legal workers, and never mind that bar association shit. [00:40:00] We’re a political organization, and we won that, too. And so it was like a time -- there was a lot of stuff on the rise. It was on the rise in Chicago. And then when the Attica stuff started to happen, I mean, we had been in Stateville. We had a case there. I think the Panthers -- some Panthers were involved in the shootout with cops in Carbondale. JJ: [Right?]. DC: And Jeff and Mike and Flint all went down there and had a trial and won. And I’m pretty sure that was before -- that was in ’70, but I’m not -- I can’t exactly 22 �remember. Could’ve been later. But anyway, got in this big argument about whether we could afford or whether we had any kinda where-with-all to try to send some people to Attica to help with what was ever gonna happen, ’cause it was -- they were still -- it was before the assault, [00:41:00] the [retake?]. And Jeff -- I lost the argument ’cause I said some stupid shit and some sexist shit. But -- I lost that -- I won the argument, we’ll go, but you can’t go. Somebody else gonna go. So he went. But then we became really involved in that. By the time -- by Christmastime, I was up there for two, three weeks at a time, going to prison every day, meeting all these guys, all the brothers, and waiting to see what was gonna happen, what the state was gonna do in the aftermath of the rebellion. And what they finally did, by the end of ’72, was indict 62 brothers -- or -- yeah. [00:42:00] And there was 42 indictments, 1,400 felony counts, half of which were life sentences for kidnapping and stuff for taking the hostages. So now, that was a really big involvement, commitment. And I was going back and forth, spending time up there, come back to Chicago, and they were going through it. And that’s probably when the appeal in the Hampton case was finished, and it was reinstated. They started to litigate that. And, you know, we had some -- had [these scenes?] in Buffalo. In the Erie County Jail, they brought -- they indicted prisoners there. And we had -- you know, they did different stuff. We had actions in the federal court. We had lawyers from all over. There were [00:43:00] a bunch of lawyers from Detroit. There were lawyers from Cleveland. There were lawyers from New York City. There were some lawyers from Virginia. And at some point after the brothers were indicted, the judge -- they had a special judge 23 �to handle those cases. And he said, “Well, I think every one of these defendants needs his own lawyer.” So now we had to recruit 60 lawyers and get ’em to do this case. And there were a couple of lawyers in Buffalo that were doing it, and that was it. So we did. And, I mean, that was a huge project, political project. I finally wound up going up there to live in ’73. I lived up there for a couple of years. But during that time, then, it all came out that they were totally manipulating the investigation. They were indicting only -- they didn’t indict any cops, even though they had all this cold-blooded murder that had gone on in the yard, and including [00:44:00] -- they killed 10 of -- 9 of their own, the hostages. They just shot ’em up. And so then the stuff kinda died down behind the scandal, and there was an investigation of the investigation, and there was an investigation of that investigation, and there was a lot of stuff. And so I went back to Chicago. And at that point, they had been doing depositions and going through, Flint and Jeff, mainly, the pretrial stuff for the Hampton case on the remand after the appeal. And we’re fighting the judge to get him to tell them to give us documents. And the Church committee had started, and so they were getting documents and bringing out [00:45:00] this stuff. And we finally had the contact with the guy who was working on the Church committee staff. And we were getting a trickle of documents. And so we were -- they were trading documents, okay? (break in audio) 24 �DC: Time the Attica event was in September of ’71, and we already had cases with two guys. And a lot of that -- the stuff -- I mean, you already had the Church, right? JJ: Yeah, we had the Church back then. DC: You had the Church still in ’69, or was it -- JJ: Yeah, ’69. DC: -- in ’70? In ’69 you had the Church. JJ: Then they flooded the neighborhood with drugs, (inaudible) but they did that [intentionally?]. DC: Yeah. Yeah, well, we’re thinking that they could -- they had a vulnerable prey. JJ: They might, because people were (inaudible) instead of correcting the situation like they used to, [00:46:00] let it (inaudible) and they would put ’em in (inaudible) I mean, the people in the neighborhood knew that. DC: But there was -- gentrification was going on, right? People were getting displaced big time, pushed outta Lincoln Park. JJ: It was unstable, the whole neighborhood, because, you know, you’re talking about Rush Street, and that’s where we started as a community. That’s Chicago and State. That was Lincoln Park, before and then in the early ’50s, we went to Lincoln Park. And by the time the people (inaudible) with all the different groups came, it was towards the tail end of the community. (inaudible). DC: Of -- right, of the displacement. JJ: (inaudible) DC: Yeah, yeah. And they all were moving to West Town. 25 �JJ: So -- DC: So then -- well, I mean, I don’t -- I remember, like I said, the -- JJ: (inaudible) that you remember -- DC: Yeah, I remember that. Yeah, I remember that. I hadn’t remembered it until you mentioned it the [00:47:00] other day. But yeah, that was a big deal. That was terrific, you know? And that was dealing with people who were potential allies, right? They were sympathetic, and they -- same thing with the takeover of the Church, right? There was not that much resistance. JJ: No, no, Reverend Gaskin was with us. He was with us. The congregation (inaudible) DC: Uh-huh. JJ: But then they tried to blame it on us, on the Young Lords. At least that was insinuated [by them?]. DC: Yeah, yeah. And when was Manuel killed? JJ: It was just before the (inaudible), May 4. DC: In September of ’70? JJ: May 4, ’69. DC: Of ’69? It was way in ’69? Oh, yeah, well, it had to be, because I remember -- I remember on a march. I was with Fred. And we were staying -- [00:48:00] I remember we were staying -- JJ: Oh, Fred was in the march? Okay, [I didn’t know when Fred was?]. 26 �DC: No, he was there. He was in the march. I was with him. It was some other people. And at some point, I think it was going west on Division Street. I think it was Division Street. Could’ve been North Avenue, maybe. JJ: I went to the march that day, and (inaudible) DC: But going west on Division, right? JJ: It was. DC: And we had kinda dropped off the march, and we were on a side street, just 50 feet from the corner. I don’t know why. We were talking about something or something. And the end of the march, and here comes the Bureau car, right? And they turned around. They made a left turn right onto the street in front of where we were standing on the parkway. And a cop had the window open. You know, it was plainclothes. And Fred looks down [00:49:00] at the guy. And he’s just kinda crawling by. And he says, “Mm, gang intelligence.” He says, “I can’t wait till the guerrilla warfare starts.” I says, “Holy shit. What the fuck?” You know, oh, that came back to me so many times. That’s a whole, enormous hidden subject, especially in an event like this. You know, it was the -- I don’t want to call it the dark side, but the hyper-active side, that more extreme side, of the Panthers’ operations, in those days, was the urge to provoke them, to challenge the cops. JJ: [War on gangs?]. DC: [00:50:00] Yeah. JJ: [War on gangs?]. 27 �DC: Yeah. And ’cause Hanrahan had gotten elected in ’68 on the war on gangs, and he was talking about the P. Stones and them, and you guys. And that’s how he got that group, [Gloves?] and them, assigned to his office, ’cause they had used to have -- they always had a police detail in the state’s attorney’s office, but they were old guys, fat guys that were near retirement, and they would go out, serve subpoenas, you know, or bring a witness to court. They didn’t do shit. And all of a sudden, he’s got all these red-hot, nasty, younger cops, [there were?] 14 cops in the raiding party, I think. And they were not old, fat cops, you know. They were young, like Gloves, [00:51:00] not green. Very experienced from kicking ass in the neighborhoods, in the minority neighborhoods. And those were the guys that he sent on the raids. Well, anyway, by ’75, we’re -- the Church committee is going. We’re going on the Hampton stuff and the discovery. They’re coming in saying, “We got no more documents.” We had this one US attorney who had kinda a conscience. He got kicked off the case around then, but before that the whole thing had come out about O’Neal being in -- the spy. And we told ’em, “Okay, give us O’Neal’s deposition.” [00:52:00] And they said, “All right, but it’s gonna be secret, you know? So you show up at the airport on such-and-such morning, and you’ll go with us, and we’ll go to where O’Neal is, and you can take his deposition and then come back.” So we did. Me, him, Flint, and [Bill Bender?], this guy from the CCR. And we went. And that was still this conscience guy in the US attorney’s office, was the only one they had there. We went to Detroit. We went to the federal building there. We got in a room. And we sat him down, started questioning him, questioned him all day. And this guy 28 �just let us. And he really -- he told us whatever we asked of him, you know? And one of the things he told us was, you know, the pretext for the raid was, oh, they’ve got illegal weapons in there, in the apartment, and that was what was in the search warrant, that they [00:53:00] pretended to be going to serve. And so I asked ’em, you know, we’ve been dealing with the FBI all this time, and you always go and meet your guy and you tell him what’s going on with the Panthers, and he questions you and you give him information about whatever you’re asking about, about whatever they’re doing. And he -- O’Neal was right in the middle of the chapter. You know, he was Fred’s bodyguard for a while. JJ: He came to(inaudible) at Church, [helped to?] train the Young Lords in security, so he would come and -- DC: He was very enterprising as an agent, you know? And as a Panther. And he said they never gave a shit about the guns, illegal, legal, whatever. But now they got this search warrant, says they got illegal weapons in the apartment, so now we got a pretext to go and raid it. Anyway, that had come at such a shock, that he was [00:54:00] an agent. And then we understood why the [Harold?] and [Truelock?] -- remember Truelock? Did you know him? JJ: I remember Truelock DC: They were from the Panthers. He was somebody Fred had met in jail that came out and joined up. And when they heard the cops coming up the stairs, they woke up and ran to the back to try to get Fred up to get ready for what was gonna happen. They couldn’t wake him. They couldn’t wake him, ’cause he was drugged. And so then all that stuff had happened, and we had this case, and 29 �now we’re dealing with the Church committee and trading documents. And this guy gave us some documents, including the floor plan, and another one about -JJ: [So they gave you that?]? DC: [00:55:00] No, the US attorney gave it to us. JJ: (inaudible) DC: You know, ’cause -- JJ: They had to give it to you. DC: Yeah, but they were supposed to turn over everything, and we had these comprehensive discovery requests, and they would just dole out a little bit, a little bit to make us try and satisfy us. But the more we got, the more we wanted, you know? And you could tell from the documents that there was more. You could tell from serial numbers and all that kinda stuff. And plus, we were getting information from this guy that worked for the Church committee, and we were giving him our stuff. And we made this one motion -- me and Flint worked out this long motion where we accused the judge of pretending that he didn’t think there were any documents, even though there’d been all these indications that we listed there were more. And he still denies it. [00:56:00] “You’ve had wonderful cooperation. You’ve had all these documents.” By that time, we did have several hundred pages, but nothing that said anything about COINTELPRO, which -- they were only -- had really only begun to really out it, you know, after they started -- ’cause the Church committee couldn’t get what they wanted, you know? JJ: And then -- 30 �DC: So -- okay. (inaudible) so by the time the trial -- the trial started in January ’76, they started picking the jury. And we had maybe, I think, a generous estimate -- I don’t really remember exactly, but maybe a thousand pages of FBI documents about the Panthers. And they were mostly -- almost all of ’em [00:57:00] were the kind of documents that they prepared to turn over in cases, you know? Later, we found when you read the real documents, then you compare it with the -what they call the 302, which is the form that they use for a statement about a police report, like, that they’re gonna turn over to the defense. And there’s all kind of variations, you know? I mean, they would just clean stuff up and hide stuff. But he insisted that the trial had to start, the judge, and we started. We started picking the jury. And in January -- we were still picking it in February. And all of a sudden in February, I get a call. Well, they’re gonna start the shit in Buffalo again. They’re gonna start up with these hearings and those indictments, even though there’d been all this scandal. So I had to leave and go back. And I was gone for three or four months. By the time I came back, you know, we were full in the middle of the trial. [00:58:00] And right about the time I came back, or even just before -- right -- no, the time I came back, they had this main agent on the witness stand who had been the one who ran O’Neal as his control, and who he would always meet with and tell him stuff and stuff, and who he gave the floor plan to, and who had given the floor plan to the cops, because they were saying you gotta raid the Panthers because they got all these illegal guns in there, which, in fact, when they -- JJ: [Who was saying that?]? 31 �DC: The FBI was saying that to the cops. JJ: (inaudible) they had the -- DC: Because, yeah, yeah, ’cause they were watching the whole time. I mean, and they sent those -- the fake letters to Jeff Ford, trying to make him think the Panthers were gonna -- out to get him, and that he should strike first. I mean, it was a bunch of stuff had happened, but it was sub rosa, you know? It was them doing [00:59:00] their thing. And in the trial, then, they were cross-examining this agent, Mitchell. And he referred to something that -- and we said, “Well, is that written up in a document?” And, he said, “Well, it should be, but I don’t know.” I said, “Well, why don’t you find that document?” And the judge said, “Yeah, you should find that document.” And Mitchell was on the stand for about a week, a week and a half, you know? End of the day, every day, we’d say, “Did you find the document?” “No, still looking.” And he was done with his testimony, was gonna leave the witness stand and be excused. And so Jeff and Montgomery, I think, [01:00:00] who was in the trial off and on, said, “Well, what about this document? Before he’s excused as a witness, we gotta--” he said, “Yeah, well, I did find it, you know? I found --” Go, “Okay, well, where’d you find it?” Da, da, da, da. And then he says, “Well, it was in a file about one of the Panthers named so-and-so, Lincoln.” You had a file about a Panther named Lincoln? Did you have a file about a Panther named Fred Hampton? “Well, you know --” And then everybody started arguing, and all the lawyers are shouting at each other, you know? And the judge finally bangs the gavel, and he says, “We’re gonna strike this out.” He says, “You just bring all these files up here tomorrow morning, and 32 �we’ll get to the bottom of this and make sure that they got everything.” So he came to court the next day. I’m just coming to watch, you know? And here come these [01:01:00] interns, whoever they were, with, like, shopping carts, three or four shopping carts, piled high with these files. JJ: The documents. DC: Files, yeah. JJ: (inaudible) documents. DC: Yeah, but COINTELPRO files. They had a file on every member of the Panthers. I mean, there was -- in the end, it was, like, 250,000 page of documents. A lot of them were total duplicates, you know? They’d write the same memo and put it in 12 files, you know, of 12 different Panthers. They had all -- collateral, other files. __: (inaudible) DC: Okay. I’ll be here. __: (inaudible)? JJ: [What’d he say?]? DC: Cubs are up 2 to nothing. JJ: Oh, yeah. DC: (laughs) __: [First inning, two runs?]. DC: Oh! JJ: [It’s permanent?]. __: Huh? JJ: It’s permanent in the video. 33 �__: In the video? (laughter) DC: Yeah, right? __: We’ll remember this day [01:02:00] [if they win?]. DC: Let’s hope it goes okay. JJ: Yeah. __: I’m gonna go to the bathroom, and -- JJ: Yeah, we’re almost done. __: -- [come back?]. DC: Okay. We’re almost through, so come back, and we’ll -- __: (inaudible) kick you outta here, but -- DC: Okay. JJ: Okay. (inaudible) DC: So he says he -- they come in with all these documents. He says, “Well, what are those?” He says, “Well, these are files on the Illinois chapter of the Black Panther party.” “Well, you better turn ’em over.” And we said, “Judge, we gotta stop the case here and let us read these files.” I mean, in the first day there was, like, 100,000 pages. Oh, no, we’re not stopping the trial. He told the jury, “Blame me that there’s a problem with these documents. It’s my fault.” JJ: Which judge was this? DC: Judge Perry. JJ: Judge Perry. 34 �DC: Judge Joe Sam Perry, a man from Alabama who had moved up here and got a job as a lawyer and been made a judge, a federal judge, [01:03:00] and he’d been a judge a long time. He was old and cranky and forgetful and, you know, although he’d been good to me a couple of times in some weird way. One time -oh, I won’t even tell that. JJ: (laughs) DC: Anyway, you know, so then he made the trial keep going, and we’re reading. They turned over copies of the documents, and we’re reading them at night and then using ’em to cross-examine the witnesses and the -- and like I say, in the end, it was something like, yeah, a round number was -- concluded it was 250,000 pages of files that they had that they said that they didn’t have and that these lawyers from Washington had stood up and swore didn’t exist. Judge says, “Blame me. I’m not gonna be bothered with that.” So the trial went on for another year [01:04:00] after that, after which the jury indicated they were pretty well hung, and so the judge dismissed the case. You know, he said, “Well, there was never enough evidence here to even go to the jury. We’ll throw it out.” Which was a boon to us because it made the standard really low on appeal, that just to show there was evidence, you know? But he had held Jeff and Flint in contempt a couple of times, and we were appealing that, and we were appealing the hiding of the documents, and we were appealing everything we could think of. I mean, me and Flint spent six months writing a brief, you know? It was that thick. And we got the right panel, and we got a reversal, a strong reversal. And then we got -- and I was back and forth. Finally, they threw everything out at Attica 35 �[01:05:00], so I was done for then. We had a civil suit we had started, but we weren’t directly involved in that. Michael and I had been up there in criminal cases a lot, and like I said, those two -- couple of two years, I stayed up there. And so then it was time to appeal the Hampton case. And we wrote this brief. And we had -- he had -- the judge assessed, like, $100,000 in costs against us and set $100,000 appeal bond. And they suspended that, court of appeals. And then we argued it, finally, in ’79. And the trial finished in June of ’77. I think it was in summer of ’79 we finally [01:06:00] argued the case. One of the judges had been an FBI agent, and he was a leading member of the society of exagents. JJ: (laughs) DC: And left it off his resume in the court. You couldn’t find it out. We only found it out -- JJ: (inaudible) DC: Judge Wilbur Pell. And in the government brief, US government brief, the guy had written something to the effect that said, these charges against these officers are insolent. They’re outrageous. You shouldn’t be allowed to come in a court and say things like that about sworn peace officers. So we put in the brief -- I put in the brief that there was this fascist-minded -- fascist-minded approach to the -- JJ: (inaudible) DC: -- prosecution [01:07:00] or to the government defense of the case, that it couldn’t be allowed to be heard because the accusations were so scandalous. And Jeff and Flint both argued for a while, and the government argued. And at 36 �the end of the government’s argument, the guy said, you know, “They called me a fascist in their brief. I’ve never been insulted like that before the judge in my whole” -- and Judge Pell turns around -- and he goes to sit down. And he turns around. I’m gonna get up to give the rebuttal argument. He says, “What about that, Mr. Cunningham? If we decide against you, are we fascists, too?” JJ: (laughs) DC: And I go, “No, judge, not exactly, but --” and I tried. Oh, I was so nonplussed. I didn’t know -- you know, it’s one of those times you think, oh, if only I’d thought of the right stuff to say, I’d’ve burned his ass up, but I gave ground, you know? Jeff listened to it when he was writing the book, and he said, [01:08:00] “It doesn’t sound as bad as you think,” you know? But it’s -- I still -- it’s something that mortified me afterwards when I realized I hadn’t just said yes, you know? You would be because that’s a fascist idea, that you can’t go to court when the cops abuse your rights. And if you said that that was okay, then you’d be subscribing to that. But that would’ve been simple enough if it had only occurred to me, you know? That’s always what happens. JJ: (inaudible) they’d challenge the thing about not having representation on the jury. DC: Yes. JJ: (inaudible) DC: Yes, we did that in the Days of Rage case. JJ: (inaudible) DC: That it was mostly -- it wasn’t so much the jury as the grand jury. And they proved that there hadn’t been any Black people on a grand jury for years. 37 �JJ: (inaudible) DC: Yeah, there were three or four cases, [01:09:00] including -- you remember the case of Brian Flanagan, that was accused of messing up Elrod, the city attorney, who chased him down the street and dove to try and tackle him and rammed his head into a wall and was crippled for the rest of his life based on that, but they tried to hang it all on Brian. And Warren, and it was Jeff, I think, and Warren Wolfson represent him, got an acquittal. And then Brian goes out and says, “Oh, we fucked ’em up, man. We got out. I was guilty as shit,” and on and on. You know, whoa, buddy. (inaudible) Come on, dude, you know? Who do you think you’re dealing with? Which was the same kinda feeling -- I mean, you had that feeling about a lot of stuff that happened, frankly, especially me, ’cause I was older. I had these kids. I thought [01:10:00] you know, it’s too dangerous. These cops are too vindictive, you know? And they hate it. And that had been shown in the different raids. You know that picture of the door of their office with shotgun holes in it? And that time -- the one time they raided the office, and somebody was talking about that yesterday. JJ: (inaudible)I have a picture. DC: And pissed in the cereal that was for the breakfast program and set fire to it one time. JJ: (inaudible) DC: Ugh. I mean, you know, not that that kind of racism in cops doesn’t still exist and get promoted by their work as cops, but there, they had an excuse against the Panthers and you guys [01:11:00] to insist on it as part of the cop philosophy. 38 �And then, you know, when Gilhooly and Rappaport were killed, and Jake Winters was killed, that was all the motivation they needed, you know? As much as it was instigated by the FBI and enabled by the FBI with the floor plan and the -and drugging Fred and all the stuff that O’Neal had done -JJ: Do you remember anything about Reverend Jackson’s case at all? Was that mentioned? DC: I remember -- I only remember -- JJ: I don’t know what happened -- DC: I don’t, either. And I don’t think anything ever really did. JJ: Nobody (inaudible) DC: They never knew -- whatever they knew [01:12:00] they kept to themselves. JJ: (inaudible) and they lost the file -- DC: Was that -- JJ: -- at Garrett seminary. DC: Yeah? JJ: [The files there -- they lost ’em?]. And that was recent, a couple of years ago. DC: That probably -- JJ: And one of the professors from the university -- and he had set up the appointment and everything. DC: And they -- JJ: (inaudible) we have a file. When they went there, there were no files. DC: Wow. JJ: At the Garrett -- 39 �DC: They would still have agents watching for (inaudible)? The file might’ve been gone for a long time. JJ: Yeah, right. DC: You know? JJ: They just didn’t -- DC: Going back to the time when it was -- all that stuff was more active, you know? JJ: Right, right. DC: You never know. JJ: But we had (inaudible) family (inaudible) investigated, they opened all the files where the police had investigated us. (laughs) DC: Yeah. Yeah, well, it was that kind of thing. They could say, well, it was probably them, you know? JJ: But we opened up the Church -- that was the first time we let ’em come in [01:13:00] and look at the files and everything. DC: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That was really an unbelievable mystery, an unbelievable trauma, that that happened to those people. And you could see it coming from a lot of different places, possibly, you know? Just no way to really understand it. JJ: Right. Well, they took advantage of anything. They took advantage of the Young Lords that were just coming from a gang into a political movement, and they took advantage of that community. DC: Well, do you remember the date they were killed? JJ: The date was September 29. Of Reverend Johnson? DC: Yeah. 40 �JJ: September 29. It was only two months before Fred Hampton. Two months before Fred Hampton. And then there was also other things going on, [lynching?] (inaudible). DC: Yes. JJ: (inaudible) DC: Yeah, there was. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DC: Yeah, yeah. [01:14:00] And they had that attack in LA right after Fred was killed. And the whole community came out then and made them stop. Somebody said that yesterday, one of those things that they had heard -- they had learned at some point afterwards that Gates had ordered a tank. The cops had a tank. They were gonna bring the tank down there ’cause Geronimo had made them fortify the office. They had all these sandbags inside, you know? So they were really kind of safe in here. Phew. But then that’s the same kind of thing, is the level of hostility on the part of the cops, that they would bring a tank, let alone that they would make the attack at 4:00 in the morning, just like they did in Chicago. JJ: Any final thoughts? DC: The final word? My final thought is, you know, [01:15:00] -- we -- when the Hampton case was remanded by the court of appeals, it went to the Supreme Court, then too. They tried to get it in the Supreme Court. And the appeals court had awarded us fees for winning the appeal, but the Supreme Court said, oh, no, they didn’t win anything. All they did was go back to square one, no fees. And 41 �they did it without hearing arguments or briefs or anything. They just said on the face of it, you can’t have this money. Thurgood Marshall dissented and said, no, we should at least have this question briefed and have them come and argue and have it dealt with as a real case. But the others all voted against him. And again, you know, ’cause that Judge [01:16:00] Pell had written this really vituperative dissent in the appeal, and now, Judge Lewis Powell on the Supreme Court wrote the same kind of appeal -- yeah, we can go. JJ: [Sure?]. DC: And that was -- So I say that to say, and finish up on that note, that the hostility was in the courts as well. It wasn’t so pervasive, but it was real. [We’re getting?] -- JJ: Is that it? DC: Yeah. JJ: Thank you. DC: I mean, you know, I’ll think about it. I’ll send you another line. All right? END OF VIDEO FILE 42 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b88019b589ea3605e77e9d46f4da055f.mp4 8ed129e7e11525731983ff463e3f64ad Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Dennis Cunningham vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Historia oral de Dennis Cunningham, entrevistado por José 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 23/10/2016 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Cunningham_Dennis Title A name given to the resource Dennis Cunningham video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Cunningham, Dennis Description An account of the resource Oral history of Dennis Cunningham, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez on 10/23/2016 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2016-10-23 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b7883962d04b67c808a59ab07010dbca.pdf 2d33aede6c52d6f99e56bc36101cb538 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Gregorio Gómez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 8/23/2012 Biography and Description Gregorio Gómez is known as the “G Man” at one of Chicago’s longest running underground poetry venues, “Weeds,” at 1515 North Dayton Street. Opened in 1964, “Weeds” still serves the Lincoln Park neighborhood; the building has existed there since 1928. Today “Weeds” is known as “the neighborhood bar without a neighborhood.” In the 1980s, prior to the Harold Washington campaign, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez organized a reorganizing event at “Weeds.” It was a small party reunion and the place was packed. The purpose was to remember the Young Lords’ work and the Puerto Ricans who were displaced from Lincoln Park. Mr. Jiménez was assisted by Iris (Martha) Ramos, who, before the Young Lords were political, was one of three different presidents of the Young Lordettes. Ms. Ramos had previously been married to Benny Pérez, one of the original Young Lords club founders, who also turned political when the Young Lords became a human rights movement on September 23, 1968. She was also the sister of Manuel Ramos who was a Young Lord killed by off duty policeman James Lamb on May 3, 1969. Mr. Gómez emigrated from Vera Cruz, Mexico to Chicago in 1963. And he has been in the poetry community for nearly three decades. He has been the Managing Director of the Latino Chicago Theatre Company, which has been in the forefront of theatre and arts in Wicker Park. Mr. Gómez’s work has been published and recorded in numerous venues, including Stray Bullets: A Celebration of Chicago Saloon Poetry (1991) and Poetry for Peace Anthology, published by the Peace Museum of Chicago. In �1986, White Panther Party Minister of Information, Bob “Righteous” Rudnick, now deceased, approached the owner of “Weeds,” Sergio Mayora, about staging “Poetry Slams.”. Soon after that Mr. Gómez started to MC. Some of the patrons are a mix of newcomers and old timers, a few white pacifists and anarchists, some revolutionaries, primarily Blacks and Latinos. Early poets who presented their work at “Weeds” includes Chris “Man Defender” Chandler, “Sultry” Sue McDonald, and Susie “Mellow” Greenspan. Poet and Young Lord Alfredo Matias is a regular at “Weeds,” along with Sergio Mayora who always recites his two poems, and Mr. Gómez himself. As Mr. Gómez reiterates, “I stand for hundreds of Poets who will never be famous.” �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay Gregorio, if you can give me your name, your date of birth, and where you were born? GREGORIO GOMEZ: Okay. My name is Gregorio Gómez, I was born in Tierra Blanca, Veracruz in the year of 1951 October 23rd. JJ: Where’s Tierra Blanca, Veracruz where is that? GG: (laughs) JJ: Veracruz is on the east coast, right? GG: Yes, on the east coast. We are, you know, several miles from Cuba, Puerto Rico. Veracruz, in contrast to the rest of Mexico, is very Caribbean. Guayaberas, arroz blanco, frijol negro, [zapateado en estilo?], [España?] a little bit ’cause of, you know, Veracruz is a state where the conquest of [00:01:00] Mexico came in. The Spañoles arrived in Veracruz, and from there they went into Tenochtitlan. But it’s very Caribbean, I mean, I think that we have, at least in my view, more of our connection to the Caribbean side of the Gulf of Mexico and all of that than more towards the west coast in regards to culture. We fit more in the Caribbean area. From there, we moved -- my father was a railroad man and he travelled a lot. You know, he started laying rail, he moved on from layin’ rail to, well, used to call them (Spanish) [00:01:56] which is those big blocks of wood [00:02:00] where the rails lay down. What do they call ’em? I don’t even know what they call ’em here. But he travelled, and throughout his travels -- of course everybody was in those days, the late ’40s, you know, that were coming the 1 �Bracero Program and (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JJ: What is the Bracero Program (inaudible)? GG: The Bracero Program, bracero comes from the word brazo, labor, where the United States started recruiting Mexican labor because of the United States was at war. And so all of the manpower or power of the United States, male manpower of the United States, was in Europe and in other what they call Europe, you know, the theaters of war. And so they started recruiting Mexicans, even though there’s already a lot of Mexicans here. You know, the whole question of the southwest of California and all of that [00:03:00] from the Mexican-American War and the theft of the southwest. They still were bringing in labor promising that white picket fence and the nice little white cottage somewhere and that kind of stuff, and instead they get -- JJ: This was in the mid-’40s? GG: Yeah, the late ’40s. JJ: Late ’40s, okay. GG: And so he crossed undocumented and got sent back, and then he crossed again, but the second time he crossed -- (Spanish) [00:03:37] (break in audio) JJ: Okay, so we were talkin’ about the Bracero Program. GG: Well, you know, the Bracero Program was a big thing in the ’40s to bring Mexican labor in. So my father tried to get into that and he was able to do that. But then, somewhere down the line, he was [00:04:00] sent back, then he came back again. Typical thing, came back, got deported, and finally -- 2 �JJ: So’s he was comin’ without any papers? GG: Yeah, I think the second time he came without any papers and so he gets deported. And finally, through whatever finagling, negotiating he did it -- I do remember one quick story that he had a gold watch that he used in the railroad that was an heirloom to him, and that he sold that watch in order to make it back to the US, but this time he wanted to come back documented. So he finally did. And that was the beginning of his thought about bringing the rest of the family to [00:05:00] the United States. JJ: And he came straight to Chicago or...? GG: He came straight to Chicago -- he did a little stuff here and there, but there was an uncle, my mother’s younger brother, was already here in Chicago. So he says, “Come on down.” And so he ended up Chicago, which I’m kinda glad that he did, in a sense, ’cause Chicago provided many different opportunities for us as his children versus being in the southwest where the mixture of mexicano, Chicano that was left over from the 1848 Mexican-American War. There’s a whole different dynamic, you know, of Chicano, mexicano from the Southwest. And here, even though we’re right in Chicago, [and there was a?] tremendous amount of discrimination it was -- JJ: And now what neighborhood were you -- GG: We ended up in the far South Side neighborhood called Roseland, [00:06:00] working class community. JJ: About what street? GG: Well, our first address was 11940 South Parnell, that was the first place that we 3 �lived in. The second one was 100 -JJ: Those are the big houses that was (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- GG: (laughs) No these was the -- I’ll get to that but we were living in the first floor of this two-flat. My sisters were living in the -- they had the bed, was in the dining room. Myself and my brothers were in one room in bunkbeds that my father built. And so we were tight. And it was (inaudible) after that, later on. And it was from Veracruz we -- at that time, the only place to get your documents was Monterrey, Nuevo León, which is a northern part of Mexico. [00:07:00] For me, I believe that was part of the preparation of being uprooted and learning how to deal with new places. When we arrived in -- JJ: Wait, with what? GG: With new places. JJ: New places, new places. GG: ’Cause when we arrived in Monterrey, we were foreigners. We spoke funny, we had an accent de Veracruz, we had a different, you know, sonsonete, a different way of talking and the beautiful Monterrey del Norteños. Yeah, they were just -they listened to different music and so that was the first time that -- JJ: So what is your music? I mean what did you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) GG: Well, I mean -- JJ: Veracruz. GG: -- there’s sonnets in Veracruz. There’s sonnets (Spanish) [00:07:49] What else? A lot of sonnets -- you know, marimba, we use a lot of marimba, arpa. And in Monterrey, [00:08:00] it’s what’s now called banda music, polka. (sings) You 4 �know, that kind of stuff which is very popular even here in Chicago. It’s very, very popular. And these big -- I mean, it’s okay. It’s danceable. But it’s a northern part of Mexico now and it’s, again, a totally different place. We came from a rural small town, very homey, Tierra Blanca to an industrial, urban, bustling huge metropolis like Monterrey. JJ: And how old were you then? GG: I was about seven, eight years old. JJ: And I didn’t get your father’s name or mother’s -- GG: [Hipólito?] Gómez is my father’s name. My mother’s name is [Tomasita?] Gómez. [00:09:00] I’m gonna get to that too, that’s an interesting connection with her. And so we end up in Monterrey. Being in Monterrey -- we had a lot of family, but from my mother’s side. Unfortunately, on my father’s side, all of his family disappeared during the various revolutions in Mexico. And I’m not gonna give you details on that ’cause he never really was fond of talkin’ about that. So he ended up with his mother and grandfather, who was killed later on. And he hated the caciques?] with rancheros, the landowners, ’cause he lived in one of those and, you know, those are the style of fiefdom where you’re a serf. JJ: These are, like, haciendas? [00:10:00] GG: (inaudible) the haciendas and they gave you a plot of land and you work for the hacienda, but then you come home and then you toil your own piece of land. But then you have to give part of your fruits to the hacienda as part of the payment, the rent. But then you’d have to buy the seed from the ranchero. I mean, it’s a racket, you know. The railroads used to do that here in the United States, where 5 �-- or the miners as well, where the mine owned the store, you know, there’s a famous song that deals with that. Tennessee Ernie Ford used to sing it, “16 tons and what do you get? One day older and deeper in debt.” You know, that kind of thing. And so he always hated that, so that’s when he finally’d make his move to join the railroad, to get away from that lifestyle. He didn’t know how to read [00:11:00] or write until he was 19 years old when his grandfather or somebody started teaching him. And he was always pushing ahead to get away from that kind of Mexican oppression. You know, government oppression, right. Capital oppression. JJ: So you call that Mexican oppression? GG: There’s Mexican oppression man. It’s goin’ on, now, you know. And so he -well, in Mexico, the oppression is the rich versus the poor, not necessarily color. The rich is always screwing the poor no matter what. And so he’s always tryin’ to get away from that. Comin’ to the United States was his dream come true. You know, that was his golden apple. That was his way of believing that he arrived at the promised land, but [00:12:00] he had to bring us all in order for him to be -- JJ: So when you say he brought us all, what are your siblings? GG: I have five brothers and two sisters. JJ: And can you give me their names or...? GG: Okay. My older sister is [Carmen Senco?], she’s the oldest, second oldest is [Marisela Ruben?], my older brother [Abram Gómez], myself, and then my younger brother [Guillermo?], and then [José Louise?], and [Raul?]. And Raul is born here, though and he was the last one of the family of eight. But so he 6 �brings us to Monterrey, you know, there’s where we went to to get the documentation. We lived there for six years. That was a process of time to get your documents and particularly for a large family. And then, of course, it’s all that money you have to be dishing out. As a matter of fact, a couple of years ago I found some documents [00:13:00] that my father had saved. Letters, written by hand, from people giving my dad, my pops, references and that he was a good man, that he was a hard worker, very trustworthy, and things like that, that he was sending to Monterrey as proof that he was working and proof of character and, you know, those kinds of things that they’re still very valid today. I mean, what’s the first things that someone wants to know about you? Are you good person? Are you employed? You know, do you have personal good character? Those kinds of things. So but we lived in Monterrey, and in Monterrey I learned that life was not gonna be easy. JJ: Okay, so what was Monterrey like? GG: Monterrey was a rough, rough -- we lived in a very rough neighborhood. It looked middle class, it looked -- or, actually it was kinda lower-middle class if you can call it. Again, another [00:14:00] working-class neighborhood, but surrounded by the rest of the world, you know, life. People who were living from day to day, that kinda thing. I ended up at a school called [Meliton de Arrel?]. It was an all-boy school. It was an all-grade school from first grade to high school and it was a school that was a state school, but it was managed by the Catholic Church. There’s another form of repression right there. So at this boy’s school, there was a lot of tension. 7 �JJ: The Catholic Church was a form of repression? Do you think that? GG: Haven’t you noticed? (laughter) Oh, you want me to answer. Right? No, it was [00:15:00] because they needed to, you know -- the student population came from the lower parts of society’s neighborhood. Very rough kids, you know, fights would break out, and I’m very light, I’m very light. So kids would come up to me and they’d look at me like, “Hey, pinche güero, man.” You know, “Where you from?” That kind of stuff. And I got beat up a couple of times, and finally I started to -- I had to fight back. And that also seems to me that it was a form of training for my arrival in the United States, my arrival in Chicago. The years in Monterrey, though, it was really wonderful. JJ: But they’re callin’ you güero because, could it be, that you were from Monter-from Veracruz? GG: From Veracruz? No, they were [00:16:00] callin’ me güero ’cause I was güero [00:16:01] JJ: Just ’cause you were -- GG: Yeah, I was just -- I mean that -- JJ: And they just didn’t like -- GG: Well, you know -- JJ: -- Americano (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) GG: They didn’t think I was a gringo, but they just -- I was so, so blatantly white, you know. Blondish hair, my eyebrows were yellowish, I was white, white, white. Even though I come from Veracruz where it’s a very tropical region, but then it has to do with my mother’s background. Her father was Spanish, an español, 8 �you know, so she has very light skin, blue eyes, where my father on the other side, he’s a Huichol out of Jalisco. And he’s a dark-skinned man -JJ: A Huichol? GG: It’s a tribu. It’s an Indian nation that’s out of Jalisco. He was born in a little [00:17:00] town called Ayo el Chico and that area was all Huichols at one time -and other tribes, of course, but he was and, you know, my grandmother was a Huichol. And I have brothers who are brown. (laughs) You know, you look at them and you look me, it’s like, “How the hell you guys, you know, same family?” But, like, no that’s typical, I think, too of many families, including in the boricua brothers and sisters. I’ve some that are [prietos, prietos?] and on the other side they’re, you know, lighter skin. As a matter of fact, I met a person from Guatemala -- no, no Ecuador? One of the two, whose brother is very dark and whose sister is very light. But I thought that Monterrey also was a training ground. As I got older and began to be analytical of this wayward North, [00:18:00] it made me think that Monterrey was a good thing. ’Cause when we arrived in Chicago in 1963, we didn’t know any word of English. We were put in an all-white neighborhood, primarily Eastern European, and I learned racism. JJ: This was on the South Side? GG: On the South Side, Roseland. JJ: Roseland, okay. GG: Which is gonna start ser-- JJ: But what do you mean you were put there? What put you there? GG: Well, that’s where my father was living. 9 �JJ: Oh, he put you there. GG: 112 Street. Yeah, he put me there. (laughter) This is where we arrived, this is where we landed. 112 Street -- no 11920. I’ll never forget that address, right across the street from West Pullman School. And that’s ’63 in late August. Week later, we were in school, September, [00:19:00] and my name went from Gregorio Gómez to Greg Gomez. And everybody’s name, the rest of my brothers and sisters, their names was changed. So I didn’t understand a word, so the teach would go, “Hey, Greg Gomez.” I didn’t know who the hell she was talkin’ to. (laughter) I would sit there, who knows. I never responded to that name until I began to get punished for behavioral problems at West Pullman School in 1963, but I was already used to that. I went to Militum de Arrel in Monterrey. You know, West Pullman school didn’t hold a candle to that school, ’cause that was, you know, (laughter) that was a rough school. In Militum de Arrel we went from -- we had to be there at 8:30 in the morning to 4:00 in the afternoon. All day long. They [00:20:00] closed the gates. If you were late, they wouldn’t let you in. They closed the gates, and the gates would stay closed until they opened them up at four o’clock for you to go home. So this punishment here, it was not (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JJ: Today -- was that more for security reasons or...? GG: No, it was just the way it was. Just the way it was. Well, security reasons, I’m not sure to be honest with you. But it was because of, again, the clientele that came in there. A lot of juvenile delinquencies, a lot of -- not everybody because I didn’t think I was, or maybe I was. (laughter) I just, you’d know it. You know 10 �what I mean? So those things began to balance in my head later on, but that first shock. It was a shock to arrive in Monterrey and be put in this urban [00:21:00] setting, even though I understood the language. And then, it was a bigger shock to arrive in Chicago f-- we were awakened around midnight. We were then taken to the bus stop. We packed all our stuff. I was half asleep. Everything was already packed. We were taken to the bus stop. From the bus stop, we drove all night long to Nuevo Laredo, Texas, crossed the border, and landed in a roach motel. ’Cause we had to wait for the train the next day to bring us to Chicago. I think it took two days or something like that. JJ: So you landed in a roach motel? GG: And I seriously mean a roach motel, and the roaches were about this big in Texas. You know, they smoked cigarettes down there. (laughter) [00:22:00] But that was my first cultural shock. And what made it even worse as a cultural shock was at the train station, you see the cowboys, you know, with their big cowboy boots and all of that and big sombreros, you know. And I’m talking about the white cowboys, not you know... Had these huge.... And then you see the contrast, which I thought was tremendously schizophrenic, the Blacks. Then I saw the Blacks who were -- they were like, Black, Black, Black. For some reason, to me, that was the first shock again. They were Black, and it tripped me out because I’ve seen Blacks in Veracruz, but they didn’t have the same physicality. These seem to be definitely much more [00:23:00] Afro-Black than the Mexican Black. And I’m not gonna go ahead and try to explain the difference. It was just a kid’s, you know, shocking vision from one day to the 11 �other. ’Cause from at night to the morning, I was in a different country with a whole different... And I was still not too freaked out yet ’cause there were still people who spoke Spanish in Texas, broken as it was. My mom was able to communicate. We understood a little bit. You know, we went and had huevo rancheros. And I looked at these huevos rancheros like, “What the hell is this?” It was not the huevos rancheros that I remembered from the night, from week before. And so that was one cultural shock. And then we came by train to Chicago, which was a beautiful ride too. You see all this countryside, you’re traveling. [00:24:00] And I love trains, because I used to ride trains with my old man. And in Mexico, there’s a lot of usage of trains to travel. And so I thought it was a really beautiful ride. Come to Chicago, don’t know anyone. A week later, I’m in school, Sept-- you know, right after Labor Day. And I’m sitting in a classroom full of white kids, and they’re talking gibberish. Not a word. The teacher I recall, her name was Mrs. [Hefferman?], put me in the back. She didn’t want to deal with me. I was in the back, gave me a book and I remember this, because later on, I remember that. She gave me one of them Dick and Jane, see the dog Spot run, those books. Put it in front of me, and to me, it looked like children’s book, which [00:25:00] I didn’t pay attention to in the first place. It’s a children’s book, you know. And I didn’t know what to do with it. So, I looked at it, sat there. And all day long, I went -- you know, they moved us from class to class. And now here’s a new kid, his name is Greg Gomez. Sit him down, I sit in the back, and I sat there. JJ: Now, you had gone to school in Mexico already? 12 �GG: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: How far had you gone? GG: I got to sixth grade in Mexico. JJ: And then this grade was what? GG: They put me in sixth grade again. JJ: Oh, sixth grade again. GG: And then they put me in sixth grade again. They flunked me. I came here, they put me in sixth grade. No, I was actually I was on my way to what -- (break in audio) GG: -- first year in high school in Monterrey ’cause there’s no seventh grade in Monterrey. You go from sixth grade, you graduate, and then you go to high school, which is what they call here -- [00:26:00] no, I don’t even know what the hell they call it. JJ: Middle school, I think. GG: Middle school. Yeah, that’s it. Thank you. Middle school. But over there it’s already high school. So I get here, and they put me in sixth grade, I don’t know the damn language, nobody talks to me. And the year goes by, and I get held back. So I did two -- I did three sixth grades. So I just want to begin to go, “Okay, this is fucked up, man. This is --” Again, in retrospect after analyzing, there was no support systems, of course, and I was not expecting any support systems ’cause they didn’t exist in those days. Nothing, no such things as bilingual, no such things by biculturalism, no such thing. It was just Gringolandia [00:27:00] period, which is where the country is going back to, you know. You’re 13 �not a gringo, you know, get the hell out of town. So those were the years that began to mold a political, cultural -- before it became political, it became a cultural ideology. I began to hold on to my Mexicanism. I began to hold on to things that I thought I was beginning to lose. I ended up going to night school. My pops, my sisters, my older brother, other Mexicans, took advantage of a program, English as a Second Language, at Fenger High School at night. So I-JJ: Is Fenger in Roseland? GG: Yes, in Roseland. Fenger High School is on 112th Street and Wallace, [00:28:00] and just, you know, eight blocks away from the house. And so I would tag along and go to class with them. And the teachers there taught you English, basics. But basic enough for you to be able to make that transition, therefore, English as a Second Language, which is still being taught today, you know. JJ: And what was that area like, what type of population was...? GG: The population was primarily Eastern European. Very white, if you want to call it, very European. JJ: I thought it was by 95th became a Mexican community later. GG: Well, 95th, even today, is not, you know, I mean, it was 95th Street -- If you’re talking about a Mexican community -- JJ: 95th and Commercial, around there somewhere? GG: The what? JJ: Is it 95th and Commercial? GG: Nah, you talkin’ ’bout South Chicago. JJ: Oh that’s South Chicago. 14 �GG: We can go there. That has all -- that was -- JJ: Oh, this is not South Chicago. GG: No, this is not South Chicago. South Chicago [00:29:00] is east of us. JJ: This is more like around Harvey or something or...? GG: North of Harvey. JJ: North of Harvey. GG: Roseland is the furthest most south neighborhood in Chicago as it is. It begins south of 95th Street, goes all the way down to 127th Street. It goes from Western on the West Side to Michigan Avenue on the East Side. I mean, it’s a huge neighborhood. And it was a very -- JJ: So it was mostly white. GG: It was all white, not mostly JJ: It was all white. GG: It was all white. The Mexicans that lived there prior to our arrival were white. You know, they became white. Even if they spoke with a heavy Mexican accent, they were white. You ask them what their name was and it was not [Margarita?], it was [Marguerite?]. And it wasn’t [00:30:00] José, it was Joe. There was this one guy, his name was José... He even changed his last name to an English pronunciation. JJ: So they had been well trained then? GG: Yeah. JJ: They had been -- GG: (mimics a whip crack) (laughter) 15 �JJ: In the school system, maybe. GG: Yeah. And so because they had been the -- from before me, and I took the name Greg by force ’cause I couldn’t do anything about it. I was too young to protest. But little by little, I got into playing soccer. I was very athletic, so I played soccer. So I played soccer with a Mexican team, with a Mexican community. So the Spanish that I was beginning to lose, I began to retain. And then one day, when I was about 19 [00:31:00] years old, one of my coaches says to me, he says, “Hey, (Spanish) [00:31:04].” He started reprimanding me because I was beginning to stutter my Spanish as I was stuttering the English. When I learned English, I began to stutter d--d--d--d--d--. ’Cause you know how your brain wants to make your mouth talk and say the words, but your mouth doesn’t have the facility to say it? And so I began to stutter d--d--d--d--w--w--. ’Cause I wanted to say things and I just couldn’t. Where in Spanish, I would (snaps) and then I began to lose that language too. So that was a shock again. And then I began to, “Okay, I have to retain the language. I have to retain some things.” By the time I got to high school, I changed my name again, and I promised everybody that my name was Gregorio [00:32:00] and if you don’t call me Gregorio, there was an ass-kicking coming behind it. JJ: Okay. What made you so proud of -- bring out that pride in your -- GG: What did it -- JJ: -- all of a sudden? Was it all of a sudden, or what...? GG: No, no. It built. It built. The first signs of my rebellion in regards to -- That’s why I say it was cultural. When I began to read the history that the United States has 16 �put forth in regards to the mexicano, [00:32:35] in regards to the rip-off of the Southwest via the 1848 War, in regards to how they made the mexicano look like a bandido. How they made us constantly look like some sort of lower-class nation. Poor, yeah, of course, Mexico is still poor. [00:33:00] I mean, there’s a lot of things about Mexico that’s fucked up to think. The whole droga thing, you know, the narcotraficantes, the narcogobiernos that have been established, you know, the killings in Juárez, the murders in Monterrey, the kidnappings in Mexico City, or -- I mean, there’s a lotta, like -- our government is fucked up. Okay? But that doesn’t mean that this government isn’t, and that this country hasn’t had its, you know, their Ku Klux Klans, their slavery, their lynchings in the South, all of those things. So you cannot tell me we’re a democratic country, and then throw rocks somewhere else and say, “No, we’re this.” But that’s where I began to develop a resentment towards the United States. And it was not this resentment, [00:34:00] “I hate this.” It’s a resentment of how we were being pictured. And how the other gringo -- how the little güeritos around me would turn around and look at me and say, “Well, he looks like me.” Because I look so white, “But he’s Mexican, he doesn’t speak English, and when he speaks English, he talks funny.” And so, you know, they used to call me taco bender and beaner and things like that. They learned real fast that insulting me was going to get them an ass-whipping, which I did. I beat up a lotta kids. That established me as a person not to fuck with. There was this one guy, his name was Stanley, something real -- Polish kid. They called him The Skull. His head actually looked like a skull, and he was a tough kid. So he comes messing around with 17 �me, I beat the shit out of him. So then he brings his cousin, [00:35:00] a fat kid. They called him Catman. Those are the scary names, you know, the scary nicknames (inaudible) Skull and Catman. So he wants to beat me up, too, so I beat him up. But here’s the interesting thing about those days, just real quick, then come back to the other thing. When Stanley, Skull, challenged me to the fight, he says -- and half of it I’m understanding, and the other half is being translated by this other guy who knew English a little better than I did. He said, “No kicking, no biting, no spitting, no scratching.” You know, so I’m thinkin’, “Well, what kind of fight this is gonna be?” So the first thing I did, I spit in his face, I kicked him in the shins, I drop him to the ground, and beat the hell out of him. I don’t know if you’re supposed to be proud of that or not, but I learned that [00:36:00] fighting was a way of salvation. It was a way of salvation for me because then the other white kids wouldn’t mess with me. And then tougher kids, instead of trying to fight me, well they became friends. You know, the whole the strong goes with the strong kinda thing. And then I began to learn the language at night school. And I resented other things, like the teachers I resented (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JJ: So you started going to night school, or...? GG: I started going to night school with my pops and my sisters and my older brother. JJ: He wanted you to go to night school or...? GG: No, that’s for English as a Second Language. You know, that was, I think, by ’64. JJ: Okay, they had the program? 18 �GG: Yeah, they had the pro-- ’64, something like that. There were some enlightened teachers that somehow -- How did that program get started? I don’t know, I never studied it. But there were some people who were enlightened. They said, “Hey, you know, these people don’t know English. Well, let’s have this...” [00:37:00] And it was a government funded program. ESL was a government funded program. JJ: And you must have felt better because you were around more Latinos at that time, no? GG: Well, yeah. I mean, I was learning English with -- There were not just Mexicans, you know, there are mexicanos, there were a couple of other... I remember seeing a couple of turbans, which could have been Hindu, could have been Arabic, could have been whatever, but they had the headdress. I saw this who were white but couldn’t speak English, they could have been another, Polish, you know, Eastern European. So I would begin to look at this thing, at this eclectic group of students, mostly adults, because the classes were for adults. But being a young kid, I was able to pick up the language (snaps) fairly quickly. Within a year, I was speaking English. Within two, I was speaking it and writing it well. Within three, I was submerging myself. [00:38:00] Within four, I was beginning to look like I was a gringo, man, you know? And so there was this whole transition that happened to me as well, that I submerged myself into the hippie movement. And my hair started growing long, I started going to protest marches. JJ: Okay so, before we get there, now this -- are you still on the South Side? GG: I live in the South Side right now. Just enough -- 19 �JJ: Oh, you have never moved from there? GG: No, no, I did. I did. When I came back from college, I actually ended up moving to Logan Square, a neighborhood that I never lived in my whole life. I went from the South Side to the university in Whitewater, and when I came back, I spent a little time at my folks’ house, but I was driving all the way to Palatine, Illinois, [00:39:00] to go to work, which was a crazy drive. You know from whi-- JJ: What kind of work was it? GG: I came back working as a community organizer at a place called The Bridge Youth Services, and they put me -- my job was to organize students -- well, not students, youth and parents at a Section 8 housing, which I can get to that as well. I was going to go that way as well. Anyways, getting away from all of that - JJ: Okay, so you became, you said, like a hippie or something? You said -- GG: Yeah, I went from this kind of rough kind of character - JJ: This is before you went to the college? GG: Yeah, yeah. In high school -- JJ: What year was this? GG: This was from 1967 through 1971. JJ: Okay, so you became a (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) GG: The thing about it is that [00:40:00] I started getting into music and the Beatles and the Stones and that kind of rock and that kind of, you know, the long hairs and things like that. And I liked that. I thought that was better than hanging out with the guys who were more -- Well, I never got into it with the jocks because 20 �they were too wide, straight, none of it. In my neighborhood, there were divisions. There was the jocks, which usually were the athletes, the baseball players, the football players, and that kind of stuff and their girlfriends, the cheerleaders, and all of that. And then there were the greasers, and the greasers were, if you remember the 1950s, those guys with the white T-shirts and the cigarette rolled up and the sleeve and the hair combed back, the Elvis Presleys, you know. And then there’s always the, like, the smart kids. They were always somewhere else. [00:41:00] And then there are those of us who are left out. We didn’t fit there, we didn’t fit here, we didn’t fit there. And little by little this group of mexicanos and gringos, we began to mix together, started hanging out at the park, drinking Boone’s Farm, listening to music. JJ: What park was that? GG: West Pullman Park on 123rd Street and Wallace. JJ: Drinking Boone’s Farm? JJ: Boone’s Farm, Ripple, Little Wild Eyes, you know it’s like that, Wild Irish Rose, smoking a little weed. You can edit that. (laughter) Nah, just -- JJ: No way. GG: You know, and just getting into this strange, excellent music. Listening to this music, sitting, just kicking back and relaxing. Not losing the toughness, but not wanting to be there anymore. I didn’t want to fight people anymore. I didn’t feel like doing that. [00:42:00] I changed my name from Greg to Gregorio. I let my hair grow long. I started being more anti-war, anti-Vietnam. My older brother, Abram, who had a wonderful job at ComEd, decided, “Before they draft me, well, 21 �I’m gonna join.” Everybody told him, “If you join, they will send you to Vietnam.” And sure enough, you know, he joined, they didn’t send him to Vietnam. They sent him to Germany. And then, who was it? I think it was Nixon, who said, “I’m pulling out 70,000 troops from Vietnam. I’m pulling them out.” He pulls them out. A week later, he sends 70,000 troops back again. But he pulls out 70,000, but he took soldiers from the Philippines, Germany. My brother calls up and says, “I’m going to Germ-- I’m going to Vietnam.” [00:43:00] And it’s just, it was a shock. So I started getting involved in that kinda stuff. I started going to marches and protests. JJ: What groups? GG: No group in particular. Just, “Hey, there’s going to be a march, you know, a peace rally march.” JJ: In that community or...? GG: In the community and then downtown, and we’ll come downtown. You know, I was not in any group as a kid, except for the group that I hang out with, which they called us the pot smokers and wine drinkers, and, you know, that. The hippies, we’re the this, that. And I liked it. It kept me from being crazy. It kept me from... well, I was not smart enough, according to the teachers, to be in the [00:44:00] right classes. And I didn’t like mechanics. So I didn’t want to be an auto mechanic. I didn’t like that. My pops, he was an excellent carpenter, but I didn’t want to be a carpenter. You know? I didn’t have an idea as to what the hell I wanted to do. I just knew that what I didn’t want to do. But I didn’t -- so I breezed through high school at d’s and c’s. It was okay with me. I didn’t give a 22 �shit. I didn’t have to study. And I would walk into a class, I would look at a test. I got a D, fine. I took another test. And then I found something interesting called architecture, drafting. My brother was a draftsman. And then I said, “What good are the draftsmen?” So I took drafting, and I liked it. But I never got into that, you know. [00:45:00] That was not my calling either. And so I just started to work, I figured I’m going to be at my father, my pops. In the summers, he would take me to work with him. He was a truck driver. He used to -- we would go to stores, empty stores, and dismantle all this stuff that was there. We’d throw ’em in a truck. We took ’em somewhere, and we got paid. I had no idea what the hell job that was. He was a truck driver, and I was his helper, and we went into places, we took it apart, and we would go home. I worked at a place called the [Goodman?] store one time, and then I graduated. My pops says, “Hey, you’re not going to do anything with your life. Why don’t you come and work with me?” Second time. JJ: Graduating from college now? GG: No, from high school. [00:46:00] This high school. Seventy-one, nowhere to go. Literally nowhere to go. I didn’t have the grades for any kind of college institution. I didn’t have the drive for a college institution. I was never encouraged by anybody in high school to be college-oriented. And I don’t remember seeing a college counselor -- I mean a high school counselor, in high school. I used to hear all these other kids, “Oh, did you see your counselor today?” “Oh, yeah. My counselor said this, and my counselor said this.” I said, “Who the hell is a counselor?” You know who I met? The vice principal. You 23 �know who he was? The disciplinarian. That’s who I met. (claps) Out the door. I got caught talking Spanish in my sophomore year [00:47:00] at Fenger. And the teacher reported me to Mr. [Kelly?], that was his name. Hated that son-of-abitch. JJ: So you got reported for talking Spanish? GG: For talking Spanish. Got 30 days suspension. JJ: For talking Spanish? GG: For talking Spanish. 30 days. Me and this other guy. JJ: Are you sure that was the only reason? I mean, not that I’m questioning that. GG: No, no. I mean -- JJ: Sometimes you might forget, but that’s your understanding? GG: No, no, no, no. (inaudible) If I was misbehaving, I’ll remember. I never got kicked out for misbehavior. ’Cause I would -- I never did. I didn’t have to misbehave. I have one goal and one goal only to please my father, my pops. Graduate from high school and get a job. Don’t -- (break in audio) GG: -- others and ass-kicking. Simple life. (laughter) It was a simple life. All I had to do was stay out of -- here was the other thing, too. [00:48:00] He says, “You get into trouble, don’t bring it home.” JJ: What was his feeling that you got suspended? GG: I never told him. He never knew. I get up in the morning, acted like I go school, instead of going to school, I would get together with a couple of friends, we would go to 103rd Street Beach, hang out all day at 103rd Street beach, you know, which 24 �is the South Side, [Kennedy Hill Park?]. It’s the furthest south part of Lake Michigan. And we would hang out there by the rocks, swimming, jumping in the water, kicking back, drinking beers, and then going home. Go home, drop your books off, change, go to work. In high school is when I started working at that Goodman store. Before -- Well no that’s a -- I don’t know if I want to get into that. It’s another crazy story about my first job. But my father once told me -- I wanted to buy these shoes that have [00:49:00] little -- they used to be known as beetle boots. It was similar to this, but they -- but they used to call it Cuban tacón, the Cuban heel. And I wanted one of those. It was 11 dollars and 50 cents. The shoes that my father bought me were 6 dollars and 50 cents. I didn’t like ’em. And he says, “You don’t like ’em? Get a job. You get a job, you can buy anything you want.” Okay. So I got a job delivering groceries for 50 cents an hour. And I made $11.50 plus taxes and bought the damn shoes. He hated it, but he knew that what I -- plus, I gave some money to the house. That was the other part of the deal. [00:50:00] “Now you’re working, you have to contribute to the house.” And so that became a routine for all of us. If we’re not working, we have to cut the grass, do the dishes, do the chores. That was our lot to living in his house and not get in trouble. He told me one day, says, “You know what? I know you gonna in trouble. I know it. I don’t want to see the police in my house. I don’t want the police coming back in my house.” Is what he told me, and they never did. The cops never -- I got arrested a couple of times. JJ: For what? Or, I mean... GG: Well, you know, curfews, drinking kinda stuff. You know, “We’re gonna call...” 25 �They would take me to the local police station, which was Kensington at the time, 115th Street and Indiana. [00:51:00] Would put me in there. Nobody’d come pick me up. They would let me go in the morning. That was it. You know? Those were the days where you really didn’t get in trouble. You know, not like today, where everything is an assault on society. In those days the cops would be coming by. There would be -- ’cause a lot of the kids that I grew up with were sons or nephews or knew the father of a copper from the neighborhood. And the coppers would come by, it was in the early ’60s -- no, not early. Middle ’60s to, you know, ’70s, something like that. The cop car would come by. He would bang on the door. He would call one of the guys. Come on over. He’ll whisper something in his ear. The cop would go. The kid would come back, say, “Let’s put all that shit away.” [00:52:00] Let’s leave a couple of beers. The paddy wagon would come by then. They would call us over. They would go, grab that beer that was there and whatever that was open. In front of the neighborhood, they would spill the booze on the ground. They would slap us around a little bit. They would put us in the paddy wagon, drive us away, and drop us down. And let us go a block away. You know? That was their way of keeping the neighbors from getting crazy. It was a way of letting us know that if they really wanted to bust us, they could. But we were, you know, we’re hanging out with this guy who was the nephew or the son of that cop and so we’re friends. But when they wanted to arrest us, they did. You know, when they got tired of our stuff, they did come down, they put us in handcuffs, and took us to the police station and write us up and... (snaps) [00:53:00] But I never took the problems home. That was, 26 �like, the one thing. The other thing is to graduate from high school no matter what. So I was ready to say, “Shh, I’m done. I’m done with this thing.” So I never studied. I never really, really studied. I never put the brain to work. I never put in effort to school. And therefore, I never heard from the counselors ’cause when they talked to me, and I rem-- (inaudible) they would say, “You know what? You’re not college material man, so you don’t have to see me. You know, you’re not this and you’re not that.” And by my senior year, there were all these kids that were preparing themselves to go to college, and they were all excited. Some of them were goin’ over here and some were goin’ over there. I never knew what those places were ’cause they seemed so vague. They were like a fog [00:54:00] to me, those places they were talking about going to school. They were fogs, you know, ’cause I never knew them. I was not familiar with them. My world was here. That’s it. And out of that circle, I was never gonna come out. But in ’72, my brother Guillermo graduates from Fenger. He went through the same problems I did except a year after me. And he says to me one day, “Hey, man. Take me to Thorton Community College. I’m gonna go apply there.” I looked at him with such an idiotic and stupid thought, me. “You’re gonna go where? You’re my brother. You’re not smart enough to go to college.” That was my -- and actually, [00:55:00] my brother is tremendously intellect, has a tremendous intellect. So I take him to Thorton Community College, and the lady there says to me, “He’s going to take the entrance exam to your college.” You know (inaudible). So the lady says to me, “You know what? You’re already here. Why don’t you take the test? If you don’t make it, you don’t make it. 27 �There’s nothing gained, nothing lost. I took it, and lo and behold, Cha-Cha, I passed the damn thing. Mathematics, English, science, and whatever else was in that test, I think a little bit of an essay. And then he goes -- A couple of weeks later, I get a letter of acceptance from this college and I go, “Come and see your college counselor. [00:56:00] Talk about your classes.” That is where my life changed. I think that was a pivotal place in my life that began to bring me to this place. I don’t think that -- there’s been other places, other flags, other places where I’ve changed life, but that was the beginning of my life, truly began from a conscious perspective. When my eyes were awake, where I was not this young kid, still kind of balancing life between stupidity and nowhere to go. You know what I mean? I was 19 years old. Those two years at Thorton Community College gave me -JJ: What was that? On the North Side or...? [00:57:00] GG: That was -- No, I lived in the South Side all my life. I’m not a North Sider. I was never a North Sider until 1980. You know never a North Sider. I never went to a Cubs game. JJ: Sox? GG: I’m still a White Sox fan. I’m not a fanatic, but they’re in first place. What the hell? So I’m a White Sacks fan today. (laughter) We used to sneak into the old Cominsky Park. There was a way for us to sneak in the old Cominsky Park. I think they thought, if you know where it’s at and you snuck in, we’re gonna let you stay. You know, it was one of those deals. But it was in 1972 when I talked to that counselor and I was actually in the present versus, like, in that fog. What 28 �the hell? You know, I was just working. [00:58:00] I was working for my pops, with my pops, as a welder in that time. That was gonna be my job. I actually thought I was gonna be a welder for the rest of my life, and the money was good. Being a welder at a young age, making almost seventeen dollars an hour, you’re a wealthy kid. You makin’ $17 an hour today. You’re doing pretty well, I would say, if you’re an unskilled worker. And I was learning a skill, welding. And I probably would have stayed if it wasn’t for the steel strike that threw everything out the window. And so that steel strike, in combination with taking that test, getting that acceptance letter, and talking to this counselor that [00:59:00] opened and unfogged my mind. Clear. Now, I didn’t know what the path was, but it definitely became clearer. By this time, I was already be -- you know, because of being in the whole hippie movement and all of that, I was already reading books. I was getting a personal education in sociopolitics. I was aware what was happening in Mexico. The whole craziness with the Tlatelolco Square where all the kids got killed during the olimpiadas of ’68. The raised glove from the Black boxers showing that kind of solidarity of Black power. My first remnances of talking about the Black Panthers and [01:00:00] the Brown Berets. I was still not familiar with the Young Lords yet until about maybe ’74, ’75 I think, when I first read my first article. And I think it was on -- I don’t remember exactly. I’m not sure if it was the taking of the church when that was, but it was not there. That’s foggy because I was still not clear, you know, still not paying attention to things. And so then I found out that I placed quite highly in my entrance exam. I always thought I was, kind of, not very smart. My intellect, I always thought of it 29 �as being not way up there. Taking those two years of college in Thorton Community College [01:01:00] really opened up my mind. My reading level raised. My writing skills raised. I took speech classes. I took all kinds of philosophy classes. I took film appreciation, theater appreciation. My grades rose to as and bs. And then what? An associate’s degree? What the hell is that? By this time, I was no longer, “Ah, who cares about school?” By this time, I’m saying, what’s after that? What’s gonna make it? So one day, I was stuck into a couple of Black veterans. At the student union of Thornton, it was like an L. It was the student union, like an L. And then one part of the L, the long part of the L, is where all the other students hung out. In the little part of the L is where the African Americans hung out, mostly vets. They played chess. [01:02:00] So I used to play chess with them. And they talked about -- there was another learning lesson, they talked about Vietnam and they talked about the politics and they talked about how the Blacks were put out front, along with the other Latinos and Mexicans. How they would arrive in Vietnam, and they would be at the front, they would be at point. So all these things about Vietnam, and how Vietnam was affecting them, and how, now that they were veterans, they come back, and they were nothing but niggers again. And I’m not going to excuse myself for using the word, because that’s a fact of 1972. People go, “Oh, the n-word.” Well, you know what? They were niggers. That’s what they were, as I was a spic, you know, and that kind of stuff. People sometimes get so dislocated with reality -with one reality versus another, that, [01:03:00] you know, they would say, “Yeah, they dress like niggers, man. You know, we’re veterans, we fought. I have a 30 �purple heart, I have this, I have...” They would come to school with an army shirt, with the medals, just to show that, you know, they were men of honor, and they were still being treated like second class. And one of those guys, so it was him and this guy named [John Sherrods?], coming from the Ada S. McKinley Agency. I think it still exists today, primarily doing services to the Black community. They spoke about monies in Wisconsin, monies for minorities, lots of money. Abundant, I mean, they were throwing monies up in the air, and that kind of stuff. I went to the workshop, took it, made my applications. I applied at places like Madison, Wisconsin, La Crosse, Green Bay, [01:04:00] and this little town called Whitewater, Wisconsin. Whitewater there’s a Chicano recruiter who comes and says, “I can get you guys in. You’re older --” By this time I was already in my early 20s. And he says, “I want you and your brother to come up here. And, you know, can you send us a reason why you want to?” By this time it was much more political. We ended up in Whitewater, Cha-cha, and we become really political. That’s where we started talking about the Chicano movement and the politics. And really started looking towards a Chicano Studies Department and a Chicano recruitment program, making connections with California and Colorado and Texas. JJ: With Chicano groups there or movements? GG: There was a small Chicano group that was really [01:05:00] lost. They were all young. They had really no leadership qualities. That’s why -- what’s his name? Oh, man. I had his name in my head and I just lost -- it’ll come back to me. JJ: But is Chicano meant the -- a person born here or...? What is the-- 31 �GG: Well, the Chicano terminology -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) ok GG: -- has a lot of different, you know places. But the way that I like to interpret it is a person of Mexican descent, born primarily in the Southwest, who has grown -who comes from that fruit of the descent franchise because of the 1848 war, that [01:06:00] has family, relatives, and the whole thing that happened during the Zoot Suit Riots. That’s where all the whole Chicano movement, you know, has its base, has its roots, has its -- the sense of power. But the thing that makes this kind of interesting is that it was in Crystal, in Texas, when the first high school students started to walk out, started to demand bilingual education, started to demand multiculturalism, started to demand a lot of things versus California. California ended up with the bigger piece of the pie, along with Colorado, because they had people who were willing, from the upper echelons, such as professors and teachers and social workers [01:07:00] and other activists, you know, out of California. Of course, there was Rodolfo Acuña who wrote Occupied America. And out of Colorado, you know, you had Jorge Gonzalez and the whole Brown Beret movement, that kind of stuff. So we get there and there’s Chicanos from California, there’s Chicanos from Texas, and there’s Chicanos from Colorado. And there was [Donald Salazar?] from Colorado, it was [José de Paz?] from Northwest California, and I don’t remember the guy from Texas, but he was outta Crystal, not a very active character. Maybe that’s why I don’t remember him. And then of course, out of California also came out this Gilbert Cano, who was also a strong activist, out of California. So this guy 32 �started recruiting all these older characters, and we got to Whitewater, and in Whitewater [01:08:00] is when we get the whole Chicano -- Their name was Estudiantes de Aguas Blancas, Students of Whitewater. They translate Whitewater to aguas blancas. [01:08:11] And they says, you know, that “We’re the Latino, the Mexican, you know, Latinos de Aguas Blancas.” And we changed that to MEChA, Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán. So we became MEChistas. Then they gave us a title to California. JJ: Was this the original group or was there a tag to another...? GG: Well, MEChA came out of California. And different campuses created their own organization, but we used the same bylaws and mission statements so that we all were part of this. Now, we were affiliated only by [01:09:00] our drive to be affiliated to something bigger than. So when we used to say we’re MEChA out of Whitewater, which was about 30 to 50 students, we’re not talking about 30, 50 students. We were talking about several thousand students because we were tied to California, Colorado. So we always say, “Well, you know, we’re MEChA. We are --” So we made ourselves be part of a national movement. And the reason that we did it is because by the time the guys from the Southwest arrived in this little town of Whitewater, they brought in all these ideas, all these crazy ideas about what -- (break in audio) GG: -- better. And it was at that -- JJ: (inaudible) thinkin’ Whitewater’s way up north in Wisconsin? GG: Whitewater is [01:10:00] 250 miles from here. It’s a little bitty school. Now it’s 33 �actually a very well-recognized school, even though small. Big on education, big on social work, business. Now it’s big on the arts. It was one of the first schools (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JJ: Is it by Milwaukee or something or...? GG: It’s west of Milwaukee and southeast of Madison. And it became the seed of the Chicano movement in Wisconsin. And as a matter of fact, we were ahead of even Chicago. The students in Chicago were still [LAMAS?] you know, Latin American Student Association. LASO, not LAMAS, Latin American Student Organization. You know, there was still using Latin American wording where we said, “No, we’re gonna be --” We planted the [01:11:00] word Chicano into our organization, into everything we did.” We created the first Chicano recruitment program. There was a minority recruitment program, but minority, for us, was Blacks, you know. It was all Black-run. Most of the recruitment was done within the Black neighborhoods. Hey, it’s okay. You know, we said, “It’s fine with us. We don’t want their pie. We want a piece of our pie, but not from their pie. We want a piece of pie but from your pie, from the university.” You know, we didn’t want money from the minority programs because they already were there. And so all they were going to do is split that and we’re going to anger the brothers. So we [01:12:00] demanded our own, which we did. And we started having conferences, Chicano conferences, and Rudy Acuña would come, and others come. And then the leadership from Chicago came to one of our conferences. Chuy García came, Rudy Lozano came. A few others, you know, started coming. So we saw that now our little Chicano movement in Whitewater began 34 �to really take root with the leadership in Chicago. And even though the difference is -- and even though we said we were saying, “Chicago -- Chicanos, we’re Chicanos,” and this and that, the majority of us from this area were Mexican. We really didn’t fit the criteria of the Chicano as it is defined. [01:13:00] But we were becoming very political. We were demanding things. We were marching. Our connection to Chicago became very strong in that we began to meet people that spread our wings. And in, I think it was 1978, my brother Guillermo came to Chicago. There was a huge march, and I believe it was in protest of the killing of a couple of young Boricuas. And as members of the Chicano movement, we wanted to show solidarity. So we came from Whitewater to be part of that. I was not able to come for some reason. Later, or before that-JJ: What year was this? GG: I think it was 1978. [01:14:00] Maybe ’79, but could be-- I’m not sure. But I know it was a huge march that they started in Humboldt Park and they marched downtown. And they had ’em going through these very tight streets, man. They had a very controlled-- my brother was telling me -- Oh, I was working. That’s why I couldn’t go, I had to... And also there was this guy named [Felipe?]. He was the brother of a woman that was doing her master’s degree in Whitewater. And he was hooked up with Roberto Caldero, Luis Gutiérrez, who else was part of that? And that was when that whole -- the FALN and, you know, things were getting hot with the FALN. And, you know, your name came up. So we came looking for Felipe. It was a nasty, nasty January storm. [01:15:00] I think it was in January. And we found ’em all up in the North Side, which was my first 35 �experience. And they were not necessarily hiding, but they were kind of keeping low, keeping a low profile in this apartment in the north side. And Felipe was -and I can’t -- Felipe [González?], was it? No, no, no. Felipe something. As a matter of fact, he was involved for a long time in the North Side with the Puerto Rican community. So those were my first connections to Chicago. I already knew about you by this time. JJ: You’re talking about David -- not [David Hernández?] or...? GG: David Hernandez, I met later. Yeah, no. David Hernandez and [Eliud?] and [Victor González?] and a few others, but that was more in the education side. [01:16:00] When I came back -- by this time, I was aware of the Young Lords. I was aware of the takeover in the church. I was aware of a lot of things, but we’ve never -- I knew who you were. JJ: Were you reading about it or did you -- how did you hear --how were you -- GG: I had read about it and it was oral his-- you know, and people talking about, you know, “Oh man.” About the Young Lords and about you. JJ: So while it was taking place, you didn’t hear about it, you didn’t pay attention? I mean -- GG: No, no. I know -- JJ: -- ’cause you were in Chicago in ’69. GG: Yeah. JJ: But you weren’t there? GG: In ’69, I wasn’t paying a lot of attention. I heard about it through the news, but I wasn’t payin’ a lot of attention. My attention span in ’69 and ’70 was survival, just 36 �survival. I think I read an article in a newspaper called Rising Up Angry [01:17:00] ’cause I used to read that newspaper a lot. I think there’s where it was one of my first places where I read about the Young Lords and about you and the arrests and all of that stuff, but I was still not there yet. My thing is, “I’m on the South Side. Who gives a shit about the North Side? We’re surviving over there.” But by mid-’70s -- actually, by ’78, that’s when we were already fully committed to political activism. We’re meeting people from all over the place. I mentioned that I met Reies López Tijerina here in the South Side at Governor’s State -- which is now Governor’s State University. JJ: And who is he, Reyes Lopez Tijerina? GG: Reyes Lopez Tijerina is from New Mexico. His claim to fame was the lands. He had deeds [01:18:00] that he, either through his own family and/or through families that he knew, you know, in Mexico that said that they had the original deeds to these lands, and so he was fighting for them. There was a point in time where he was arrested and thrown in jail. There were rumors that he was tortured, that they used electroshock on him ’cause when he was in jail and when he came out, he was two different people. When I met him, he was a little slower. His fiery speeches were not as -- ’cause he used to be a very prolific and vibrant speaker. And a lot of things were already in his head, all these things. He knew about the land grants really well. [01:19:00] I had learned and read about him when he took a group of revolucionarios, as he called them, to take over -- no, to release a prisoner from one of the police stations. They got arrested without cause. They wanted to go to this police station. So that got my 37 �-- when he came to speak at Governor State, I wanted to go and check it out. So I went and checked it out and I met him. We talked. I used to have photographs, but they got destroyed in a fire, unfortunately. I had a lot of photographs from the ’70s and early ’80s with all kinds of people and it just like, (mimics flames) fire can really destroy shit. But another turn in 1979 -- [01:20:00] by 1979, I was the last director of the Chicano Studies Department that we created in Whitewater. And by 1979, I was getting disillusioned with Whitewater. JJ: Now how did you do that? I mean, how did you get that? GG: The Chicano Studies Department? JJ: Yeah. GG: Well first of all, we hooked up with activists in the local community. A lot of them were ex-migrant workers. A lot of them were people working in the local farms, but their kids were going to high school, they were going to school, and they wanna get ’em out of there. So in Whitewater, we started pushing for Chicano studies and Chicano studies that we demanded our own, and so we brought in Rudy Acuña from California to deal with the chancellor, and we brought in [01:21:00] documentation. And before you know it the -- and we marched. We used to call them the silent marches and we would march silently, in single file, five feet from one another so we could make the line look long. But it also was very powerful in that silently, with our placards -- No, you know, it was no Chicago power -- Chicano power, there was no down with the state. There was no -- all of it was said in our signs, and we marched silently. And we marched silently around the school. And the newspaper, Royal Purple started writing 38 �stories. The African organizations started joining us, you know, started supporting, because we got Chicano studies. They’d been wanting Black studies for years, and they were not getting anything. [01:22:00] We were getting the socalled minority studies by white teachers who learned about minorities in their sociology class. That was their extent, and so we said, “No, we want--” We demanded our own teachers, we demanded our own... So finally, the Chancellor, Chancellor [Connor?] acquiesced. And he sent a report to Madison, Wisconsin, which was the mothership, the big university. They said, “Yeah, do what you want. We gotta --” And we had our Chicano studies department. Our first director, our first chair was José de Paz from California, who was a student at the time. (inaudible) he was just graduating, just getting his master’s degree. And then we brought in two more [01:23:00] professors. They left, and I was left behind. And I said, “Okay, I’m gonna take it for one year, from ’70 -- or a year and a half.” Middle of ’78 through ’79. But I was also getting ready, I’d been there for six years already. It’s time for me to get the heck out of there. And so I did. I started applying for jobs. I applied at a place called The Bridge Youth Services, as a community organizer. And I met two people. One of them is named [Oved Lopez?], and the other one, [Elva Vazquez?]. I met -- and I remember them, there were also (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JJ: What year was this? GG: It was already ’80. January, February of ’80, or maybe fall of ’79. But it was in that -- ’cause I got the job in ’80. [01:24:00] And I saw Elva and I saw Oved. They were both applying for the job. And when I -- and we’d say hello, that was 39 �it. And then they both said, “Hey, if you get the job, give us a call. Give us a call.” I got the job. Couple of months later, I called Elva ’cause Oved had talked about having this little -- he talked about LADO and he talked about what they did and he talked about there was a free clinic and education and all of this, and Elva used to teach there, and all these little programs that they were doing to serve the community around Oakley and North Avenue. So I came and met Elva. We talked a little bit. [01:25:00] She agreed to help me out to bring services to Rand Grove Village, which is where I was now going to be working as a community organizer with a Section 8 community in the -- it’s called Unincorporated Palatine. And so, there was nothing there. Run by, you know, Appalachian white couple who were a bit on the racist side, mostly black and Puerto Rican, some Mexican. Some of them were out of Humboldt Park, unfortunately, ’cause -- or Lincoln Park. ’Cause by this time, I already knew the whole history of the Puerto Rican community being moved out from that area. The whole -JJ: How did you find out? GG: Well, through the news, through reading. I mean, by this time, I was pretty [01:26:00] much aware. I was keeping aware of what was happening in Lincoln Park. The whole -- what they used to call the urban pioneers, you know, that then became the yuppies, and how the Puerto Rican community was being displaced and being moved towards Humboldt Park and further west and wherever they could go. And then, when I met Elva and Oved, and I started coming down to their storefront, is when your name really popped. When he started talking about all of that history, Omar, I met Omar, and how he was a 40 �member of the Young Lords, being one of the non-Puerto Ricans. “I’m Mexican, a member of the Young Lords.” [01:27:00] He was like your secretary of communication or something. JJ: Minister of information. GG: Minister of information. And so, I saw photographs of your protests. I saw photographs of Oved [head?], at his disposal. And it just seemed quite easily that we just blended in. Me coming from Whitewater, looking for a place to get involved again. I got more involved in the North Side as a Mexican, as a Chicano, than I did in Pilsen. You know, in Pilsen there was Rudy Lozano and [Juan Velasquez?] and, you know, Chuy García and all these [01:28:00] other characters. There was really no place for me. And my brother Guillermo was making inroads into that community. But it was not really -- I really didn’t fit in for some reason. Or I didn’t, it was not that -- I just -- it was just not my time. I ended up marrying Elva, as you know. But it was really interesting ’cause then, the more they talked about what was happening on the North Side, the more I felt like I thought I had a place for me to bring the skills and the experiences that I had learned out of the university setting, and out of a -- JJ: How long did you do the Latino studies? I mean the Chi-- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) GG: The Chicano studies? [01:29:00] Yeah, yeah. No, no the -- JJ: Chicano Studies. GG: Well, I went through the program. I took Chicano studies myself. And then in ’79, when we -- 41 �JJ: That’s a couple of years, then. Chicano (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) GG: Oh, yeah. A couple of years, definitely. JJ: Of taking the program. GG: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. And then when I took over -- so I continued, you know. I mean, we’re teaching history, we’re teaching politics, we’re teaching sociology, we’re teaching literature. Of course, one of the biggest, in literature we’re using, of course, Jorge González, José Joaquin. We’re using No Se Lo Tragó La Tierra, Tomás Rivera. We’re using Bless Mi, Ultima by -- (snaps) No, no. No Se Lo Tragó La Tierra. Bless Mi, Ultima is the one I can’t remember the -- Rodolfo Anaya [01:30:00] is the author of tremendous books which are now banned, by the way, in Arizona and New Mexico because of the anti-Chicano movement, anti-Mexicanism that Arizona and the southwest is carrying, which is tremendously messed up that in the year 2012 we have such blatant racism that people see it as patriotism, as Americanism, which continues to add fuel to my fire in regards to the United States and its non-democratic -- or its democratic hypocrisy. A connection that I have with you is that when you got out of jail, and I think it was 1981. JJ: That was for the -- GG: After the FALN -- JJ: -- FALN case. GG: -- thing. [01:31:00] You were getting out, I think it was ’81, and we were going to meet you at a bar on North Avenue, which is now a Pizza Hut, I think. We were gonna meet you there and I walked in there. I had a brown beret, and I walked in 42 �first. I was gonna meet Elva and Oved and Omar, and you were late. (laughter) You were late. And I came in first because Elva and those guys -- so I (inaudible) is there were some Kings in there, and they were going, “That’s Chacha Jiménez.” Said, “Nah, that’s not Cha-cha.” Finally, one of the bartenders comes up and says, “Hey man, are you Cha-cha Jiménez?” I go, “No, but I’m waiting for him.” And he says, “Well, you know, those are Kings over there. Be careful, ’cause they think--” (knocking) (break in audio) GG: Actually, so, I mean, that was my first -- JJ: So go back. So the first time was about right after the FALN case? GG: Yeah. [01:32:00] That, I mean -- JJ: And the thing was late and you said the Kings. GG: There was a couple of Kings in there, and for some reason, they did not like the fact that you were gonna be there. What that reason is, to tell you the truth, I had -- to this day, I don’t know. The good thing is that Oved showed up with Elva, finally. He knew those guys. He went and talked to them. They relaxed. He didn’t say you were coming. Then you show up a little while later. We met, and I don’t know where the hell we went from there, to be honest with you. All we did was meet there, and then we left there little while afterwards. But that was the first time that we were face to face, and we looked at each other. And either Elva or Oved, because I had told ’em the story, said how similar we actually did look because we were both, you know, kind of [01:33:00] white and just similarities in features and stuff like that. And of course, you walk in and you got a beret on, 43 �too. And I took mine off, but I had longer hair. You know, I used to have long hair. From then on, little by little, we began to cross paths. When Harold Washington started to run, we were very -- Elva and I -- well, and off course, the whole Latino side of the progressive movement, you know, the independent politics, went right after Washington. We fell behind them. We had just done some really strong things in Pilsen with the election of [01:34:00] Juan Soliz at the time, not only from state representative, definitely to alderman. There was push from this side. You know, Luis Gutiérrez was beginning to develop. And then you came out -JJ: We had that coalition, you know. GG: The co-- right. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) those agreements. GG: And then you decided that you were going to launch a -- JJ: That was before that. That was alderman campaign? GG: Yeah. What was that -- JJ: 1975. That was 1975. GG: Yeah, but in 19-- JJ: The timeline, I think, we got it a little mixed (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) GG: No, no, no. It was another time. Then it had to be the Harold Washington thing. ’Cause we met at our house. I was living now in Washington and Fullerton on the second floor. You came, it was you, definitely Oved, maybe even [Carlos Pérez?], maybe, you know, [Marla?] for sure, that were talking about an election. And part of that election, of course, [01:35:00] was Harold Washington. But the 44 �other one, for some reason, I always thought that you wanted to run for alderman as well. JJ: I ran in 1975. GG: I know that, but I don’t know why I thought you wanted to run again at that time. I don’t know why I have that bird in my -- (inaudible) about birds. JJ: (laughs) Well, during the Harold Washington campaign we had a coalition -- GG: Yeah. JJ: -- with Soliz -- GG: Yeah. JJ: -- and Rudy Lozano, you know, Reverend Jorge Morales, and... GG: Right. Right, right, right, right. JJ: You know, (inaudible) that coalition of like five people at that time. GG: At the time. JJ: And then we had the rally at North West Fall and that -- GG: Right. JJ: I don’t know if you went -- GG: Yeah, the second floor. JJ: Did you go to that? GG: Yeah, yeah, the second floor. JJ: And what was that like? Can you describe that? GG: Well, I think at that rally, I began to see what appeared to me was the beginning divisions of our communities. [01:36:00] In that, Reverend Morales was a very strong character with a very passionate Puerto Rican ideology. And he seemed, 45 �to me, to skew the issue of being a coalition of progressives, Latinos, Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, with a progressive black community. But I think -- I began to talk with a couple of people about that, that Reverend Morales definitely wanted a controlling factor. As he being a leader, as he wanted to do things. And he began to [01:37:00] push people out. And I always thought that you were one of those people that he wanted out. I thought he didn’t want y-- and he also definitely didn’t want the Mexicans in there. He felt that the Puerto Ricans being citizens, being a voting Black, being this and that, that that would be his way of growing in stature and in status. That’s what I remember out of it. We all came out shaking hands, we all came out hugging and kissing, but I don’t think there was another rally like that after that. I don’t think there was. There was a lot of little groupings, I think, a lot of meetings in different places, meetings in Pilsen, meetings in Little Village, and meetings up here. [01:38:00] But the West Town coalition, I, you know, wanted to take control, I thought. And the West Town Coalition was not really a coalition that I -- and I think [Peter Earl?] was part of that at one time. And you always talk to Young Lords. You always said the Young Lords. You always said, you know, “The Young Lords can do this.” You always tried to rally the community to be a Young Lord affiliate, where the Reverend Morales was more of a West Town coalition organization. And to me, even though in the end Washington was elected, people were elected to city council, there were people who were left out. And yeah, I thought you were one of those that was left out. And I thought that was one of the biggest shames. That’s why I thought you were running [01:39:00] for alderman. I think that that’s 46 �why I thought, I thought you should have been one of the people that should have been in that city council at that time when everybody -- when all the Latinos were coming in that -- and maybe we talked about it, or maybe somewhere along the line, but I believe that you were iced out from that time on. And we’re all, I think the Mexicans got iced out. It just seemed -- and then when Harold Washington was in office, it just seemed that some people elbowed their way into being part of the inside clique that really didn’t belong. And the ones -- a lot of the workhorses like the Cha-cha Jiménez was not there. Or if you were there, you were on the [01:40:00] outskirts of it. You know ’cause you were not even invited to that, what was that, the Latino committee, Hispanic committee or something that was formed? JJ: No, we actually helped form that. GG: Yeah, but you were not in it. JJ: No, no. We were not in it because my record became an issue, so we kind of quieted down. But it was an issue during the campaign. GG: Right, right. No. JJ: When we got the votes, it wasn’t an issue. But it was an issue later, but the media was after a few people. So, I mean, we understood that. But you know, we were being -- we were new. We were novices. And, you know, our passion was to get Harold elected. GG: No, I -- absolutely. JJ: He did -- we were able to introduce him at Humboldt Park. GG: Yes, yes. 47 �JJ: Were you there at that event or...? GG: Yes. I was. [01:41:00] Well, you know, I -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Can you describe (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) GG: Well, you know what I -- JJ: When they first came to the neighborhood festivals. Do you remember that? GG: Well, I think when he came the Puerto Rican-- JJ: After he won. After he won. GG: Yeah, when he came to the Puerto Rican fe-- the Humboldt Park festival I think that he came in -- JJ: ’Cause I was the only one on stage in terms of -- GG: He’d be a -- like, yeah. JJ: -- members of the community. GG: ’Cause you know he was -- that’s right. (inaudible) JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) GG: You were the only one up there. You were the one they -- JJ: That his way of saying thank you. GG: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: I was the only on stage and there was a crowd of 100,000 people. I mean that we had buttons, 30,000 people wearin’ buttons. GG: (laughs) JJ: I mean what -- GG: Yeah, don’t -- 48 �JJ: I mean, what -- GG: What -- JJ: What do you remember? GG: No, when I think of that -- what I think, that was his payback to the Humboldt Park community, to the Puerto Rican community it was his payback. And I think that he, [01:42:00] to me, he was one of the most genuine political figures who really tried to bring into an agenda a whole bunch of ideas. The unfortunate thing, and I don’t say that negatively it’s only the unfortunate thing, is that we were all too headstrong. We demanded too many things and we refuse to be nonpartisan at things. You know, the Mexicans demanded things, the Puerto Ricans demanded things, the Blacks demanded things, and he was trying to appease us all. And we, you know, we kinda, as you said we’re new and all of those things that would be. I think we kinda tripped over each other a little bit and we stepped on some toes and we broke some eggs. And instead of walking on eggshells, we were just [01:43:00] crushin’ them. And so I think that that’s where the evil cabal realized that Harold was not that strong. JJ: And who were the evil cabal? GG: Well that was Vrdolyak, that Alderman Mell, Alderman Burke. But to me, those were the three main characters and everybody else was -- think there was like seven of them, you know (inaudible) But those were the th-- JJ: And what did they do? I mean what...? GG: Well they did, as a matter of fact, they did to Harold Washington blocking everything, halting, filibustering, embarrassing him. They did everything they 49 �could to keep him from developing any kind of positive programming, which is what the Republican Party’s doing to President Obama today. The same kind of thing. You know, the evil cabal of [01:44:00] Mitt Romney and now Paul Ryan and all those other idiots. I’m not even gonna deal with that. But I think that the white political aristocracy of the daily regime that Jane Byrne tried to deal with, but they left her pretty much -- you know, she was a woman “Eh.” You know, they let her slide because she was a woman and, you know, Irish. They did not do that with Harold Washington. They saw him as being too anti-machine and so they just stopped it. You know, they just put a stop to everything. [01:45:00] Standing on tables yelling, it’s Alderman Mell standing on a table yelling at top of his lungs as to... You know what? That was a circus. Mike Royko had a great time with it, another columnist of the time (pause) saying, you know, pointing out the obvious that they would not have done it to anybody else but Harold. When you don’t let a leader propose programming and council acting upon those proposals and being, of course, dealing and talking about it, you know, trying to negotiate, whatever, there was none of that with Harold. And that also became our own [01:46:00] falling because then we begin to bicker, I think. I think that we as a community will begin to bicker and that’s unfortunate. Even our own leadership began to bicker once Juan Soliz fucked up. I mean, I was a strong supporter. JJ: What do you mean he messed up? GG: When he became alderman -- he was really good when he was when he was a state rep. When he came back, when we brought him back and to put him, you 50 �know, and have him be our political leader. The murder of Rudy Lozano. JJ: Which was actually two days after the event in Humboldt Park. GG: Oh sh-- yes. Yeah. JJ: Is that n-- (laughs) GG: That is ironic, isn’t it? JJ: It’s ironic and I remember that well. GG: Yeah. JJ: So we have a rally in Humboldt Park with 100,000 Puerto Ricans -- GG: Right, right. JJ: And now Rudy Lozano’s planning the same thing in the [01:47:00] Mexican community -- GG: In Little Village. JJ: --and exactly two days after Humboldt Park he’s killed. GG: He’s murdered. Yep. JJ: And how was -- how did -- they said it was local gang. GG: Well, like, supposedly a local gangbanger came in that he knew, let him into his kitchen to use the bathroom, got glass of water, the stories go all over the place. And as he came out, he put a couple of bullets into Rudy’s body. I’ve always thought it was a hit for hire. I think if anybody says different, you know, it’s so what. JJ: And who was Rudy Lozano? GG: Well, Rudy Lozano actually had been an organizer in the textile area and then coming out of there developing a very strong voice for the for [01:48:00] the 51 �Mexican community of Little Village. He began to emerge as a bigger voice than Juan Soliz who actually was a natural leader. But he began to -- this is what I also think, when he became alderman, he started finagling other things later. And so I think they even tried to blame it on Juan that that you know, Juan that but that’s so far-fetched. He was actually bringing a strong union presence in the Mexican community, in the Mexican political movement that -- he was a person to reckon with, who was also on certain circles in -- not yet even an alderman, [01:49:00] was him possibly talking about running for the mayorship of the city. You know, after Harold, which was quite interesting. A lot of people would say, “You know what after Harold, when he’s done with this, you know, we can groom Rudy Lozano to that.” And I think somebody, whether it was, you know -- yeah, I’m going into trouble on this one. It could mean that, you know, some of the some of the entrenched, longtime Mexican Mafia that was within the within the daily regime could have had a handle on this, as well. It could have been just the Irish Mafia itself, you know, dealing with it. Instead of killing the mayor, well they do something different. It is an issue that can be [01:50:00] analyzed and studied from 380 [sic] degrees, and you happen to be part of all of that. I think that’s quite interesting. And the only thing -JJ: We helped lead the funeral procession. Remember? We had [lunch?]. GG: Yes, we did. JJ: And it was a Young Lords (inaudible) -- GG: Yeah. JJ: that helped lead that. 52 �GG: Yep. JJ: With, you know, of course with Chuy Garcia in the leadership -- GG: Uh-huh JJ: -- role, but it was -- GG: Yes. Yeah. JJ: -- Young Lords and Slim Coleman and Marion (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) GG: Not one of my favorite characters, to tell the truth. JJ: And Marion Stamps. GG: Yeah. JJ: Marion Stamps and -- GG: Yeah or [Mary?] Stamps. Yeah, I was a (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JJ: -- his name was [Al Sampson?], I think, from the South Side. GG: Yeah, yeah. JJ: From... GG: From South Chicago. JJ: But that group, we put that together the first memorial march. GG: You know what, I think that that was one of the largest processions for a Mexican leader who was still [01:51:00] flourishing, you know, he was not an old guy who had done all these things. He was, you know, he was just an activist who -- JJ: But you recall that march. Were you there or...? GG: Yeah, of course. But, like I said, I was (laughter) JJ: The South Side. GG: Yeah, I was in the far back. No, but I think that Rudy was -- 53 �JJ: But you were aware that we were part -- GG: We were, like -- JJ: -- of our gang. GG: Yes, of course, of course. I mean, I was good friends with Rudy, you know, I was -- as a matter of fact when our IPO which was Rudy, Chuy, Juan Soliz, split, we stayed with Soliz ’cause, you know, we had been working with it for a long time and... But at the same time we didn’t want to break ties with either Chuy or Rudy and so where some people broke ties, I kept friendships with. And I would go to the rallies and things like that. I would go to the fundraisers, you know. [01:52:00] So I didn’t want to break it. And, ironically, when Juan Soliz pissed me off was when he gave a bigger role to one of his lower helpers than my brother Guillermo who was his campaign manager and the one who (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)-- JJ: So your brother was his campaign manager? GG: Yeah, for both of those wins, you know, for state rep and then for alderman, he was his campaign manager. JJ: Oh, okay. Your brother Guillermo was the campaign manager. Yeah. And so when and when Juan began to isolate him because other people with money and that kind of thing were st-- you know, he began to develop his own little leadership over here of people with cash, and being twice old as my brother, I told Juan Soliz to go fuck himself, you know. And I told him I would never work with him. And I told my brother, says, “Sooner or later, man. He’s [01:53:00] gonna screw you. You better get ready to get the hell out of there.” And he did. 54 �And after all that those little things, Juan Soliz became a clown. You know, getting drunk at bars, his wife [Lete?], walking around in the summer with a fur coat on. You know, they thought they were the royalty of Pilsen unfortunately and she was beautiful, wonderful person and I don’t know what happened to her. And, you know, Juan Soliz, today, is an ambulance chaser. I have very little respect for that guy, where I continue a good friendship with Chuy, I continue a good friendship with, you know, Rudy’s wife, I have a good friendship with Rudy Junior. You know what I mean? That’s the irony of things. When Rudy Junior was running and I supported. Not necessarily a lot in being there physically but definitely -(break in audio) GG: --port him financially and by [01:54:00] going to events and things like that. You know, who knew kind of thing. You know, who knew that all of these things came to pass and they’re going around in a circle. I think that what you’re doing with this documentary, these oral histories and how we are tied into you it’s very interesting and very important ’cause it shows that all the people that, through one way or another, you know, cross your paths and how we participated, little or a lot, in the struggles that you have gone through in regards to the Young Lords. And it’s also quite interesting and beautiful, I think, how the Young Lords transformed themselves back then, but how you kept it the Young Lords and now [01:55:00] transformed them to such a point where the respect that is being received because of your work and the works that you’ve done from those days [of the ’80s?] this way. Still an activist, is still a person with a voice in regards to 55 �justice, in regards to not just a Puerto Rican community, but now, you know, you’re -- we cannot just say Puerto Rican community in 2012. You know what I mean? We have to -- sometimes I get pissed off Luis Gutiérrez ’cause, you know, he’s more Mexican than Puerto Rican nowadays. (laughs) Let us be, you know. But I respect that. I think that we have to cross those -- I think those boundaries between our communities have to be -- or, you know, the bridge has to be built in such a way that there’s gonna be a 2044. You know what I mean? [01:56:00] (pause) The United States as it is, or as it was in the ’50s, it will no longer exist 25,30 years from now. Our communities are growing and the more anti-Mexicanism, the more anti-Latino, the more anti- this, you know, the more that we get together, the more that we’re going to create a hell of a -(break in audio) GG: Anyway, so tying all of these things up in regards to the coalition between the Puerto Rican and all of the Latinos that are coming to United States would change in the United States. Myself, I believe that I’ve helped participate. By participate, I’ve held those changes as well, through education. I used to be a youth worker back in the back in the ’80s. [01:57:00] I’ve always been an activist in one way or another. And I was the executive director of one of Chicago’s prominent theater companies called Latino Chicago Theatre Company. We used to own a beautiful theater called The Firehouse on North Avenue and Damen, which was a firehouse. And within that time, I was also getting involved in poetry. I found my calling as an artist, which is -- I’m a poet. I today I can say I’m a poet without feeling like I’m lying or that I’m -- I practice what I do and 56 �there’s a place in the Near North Side called Weeds. It’s a little bar called Weeds where I’ve been hosting a poetry venue for the past 27 years, and Cha-cha has been graceful enough to come down and see [01:58:00] us on Monday nights. Through the theater and through the poetry venue we have had people like Guillermo Gómez-Peña who have come through. Bacha, another excellent, excellent poet. Patricia Smith, who is a wonderful African-American poet. Luis Rodriguez, who is the founder of Tia Chucha Press and he was a great activist right now throughout the Southwest in regards to the people’s struggles. So Weeds, it has been a portal for many poets to do their work and move on. I like to think of myself as the doorkeeper, you know, (laughter) as a host [01:59:00] and so... JJ: Talking about hosts, you also hosted our 40th anniversary. GG: Oh yeah, I was gonna mention that. Just to kind of conclude with this, actually, Cha-cha asked me to be the host and master of ceremonies for the 40th anniversary of the Young Lords. And that was one beautiful and hectic, you know, six-and-a-half-hour day, I think it was. Black Panther leadership, Young Lords leadership from New York, from Chicago, from Miami, from -- it was one of the most wonderful experiences, and I’m still waiting for a for a tape. (laughter) And I thank Cha-cha for asking me to do to be that host. It was a tremendous, tremendous day in which music, words, leaders from all over the place [02:00:00] congregated and celebrated the Young Lords and Cha-cha Jiménez. (Spanish) [02:00:09] JJ: (Spanish) [02:00:11] I appreciate -- 57 �END OF VIDEO FILE 58 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2f8d1f1935fa89cc42ac39fde2b815f2.mp4 a2b97d9f1acc210e3dd11075f18c7f87 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Gregorio Gómez vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Gomez_Gregorio Title A name given to the resource Gregorio Gómez video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Gómez, Gregorio Description An account of the resource Gregorio Gómez is known as the “G Man” at one of Chicago’s longest running underground poetry venues, “Weeds,” at 1515 North Dayton Street. Opened in 1964, “Weeds” still serves the Lincoln Park neighborhood; the building has existed there since 1928. Today “Weeds” is known as “the neighborhood bar without a neighborhood.” In the 1980s, prior to the Harold Washington campaign, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez organized a reorganizing event at “Weeds.” It was a small party reunion and the place was packed. The purpose was to remember the Young Lords’ work and the Puerto Ricans who were displaced from Lincoln Park. Mr. Jiménez was assisted by Iris (Martha) Ramos, who, before the Young Lords were political, was one of three different presidents of the Young Lordettes. Ms. Ramos had previously been married to Benny Pérez, one of the original Young Lords club founders, who also turned political when the Young Lords became a human rights movement on September 23, 1968. She was also the sister of Manuel Ramos who was a Young Lord killed by off duty policeman James Lamb on May 3, 1969. Mr. Gómez emigrated from Vera Cruz, Mexico to Chicago in 1963. And he has been in the poetry community for nearly three decades. He has been the Managing Director of the Latino Chicago Theatre Company, which has been in the forefront of theatre and arts in Wicker Park. Mr. Gómez’s work has been published and recorded in numerous venues, including Stray Bullets: A Celebration of Chicago Saloon Poetry (1991) and Poetry for Peace Anthology, published by the Peace Museum of Chicago. In 1986, White Panther Party Minister of Information, Bob “Righteous” Rudnick, now deceased, approached the owner of “Weeds,” Sergio Mayora, about staging “Poetry Slams.”. Soon after that Mr. Gómez started to MC. Some of the patrons are a mix of newcomers and old timers, a few white pacifists and anarchists, some revolutionaries, primarily Blacks and Latinos. Early poets who presented their work at “Weeds” includes Chris “Man Defender” Chandler, “Sultry” Sue McDonald, and Susie “Mellow” Greenspan. Poet and Young Lord Alfredo Matias is a regular at “Weeds,” along with Sergio Mayora who always recites his two poems, and Mr. Gómez himself. As Mr. Gómez reiterates, “I stand for hundreds of Poets who will never be famous.” Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-08-23 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/efd329056a2d621fe299fa4b31f687d6.pdf 63ecfa7a9093025250a1168931aa2e80 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Laura Garcia Interviewers: Jose “Cha Cha” Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 8/25/2012 Biography and Description Laura Garcia was raised in an immigrant farmworker family. She was a member of MECha, the Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán, in the struggle to build the United Farmworkers Union, and joined the Teatro de las Chicanas, a theatre troupe started by Felicitas Nuñez and Delia Ravelo, in the 1970s. She recently co-edited, with Sandra M. Gutierrez and Ms. Nuñez a collection of memoirs by members of Teatro Chicanas called Teatro Chicana (2008). Their most recent play is “Madres por Justicia,” which was first performed at the MALCS Conference in Los Angeles, August 2011. Ms. Garcia’s work as a journalist has gained international acclaim. She has reported on poverty and women’s conferences and electoral campaigns in Mexico, China, Brazil, the Dominican Republic, and the United States, among others. She currently edits the Tribuno del Pueblo, a bilingual newspaper that is distributed to readers across the United States. The paper focuses on giving voice to the poor and on a range of immigrants’s issues. A strong advocate for women’s rights, Ms. Garcia has also authored a bilingual pamphlet, “Who is Killing the Women of Juárez?” It raises awareness about the disappearances and murders of hundreds of women in Mexico’s Ciudad Juárez which is just across the Rio Grande River, from El Paso, Texas and is home to a number of American drug manufacturers. She reports on the �failure of Mexican and U.S. authorities to investigate the crimes and stop the killings. In 2004, Ms. Garcia was part of a delegation which visited Ciudad Juárez to report on the crisis. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: So, if you can give me your full name, your date of birth, when you were born, and where you were born. LAURA GARCIA: Okay. My name is Laura [Elena Cortez?] Garcia. And I was born in Mexico -- I’m from Mazatlán, Sinaloa -- in the year 1953. But my family -- I’m talking about the whole family. They have been in the United States since the 1920s. But like every Mexican family, we go back and forth between the United States and Mexico. So, I would say half of my family were born here and half of my family was born in Mexico. My mother happened to be born in Yuma, Arizona in the 1920s. And then, they were deported, you know, the great repatriation that they call it when the -JJ: Even though she was born -- LG: Yeah, because her parents were undocumented. [00:01:00] So, the parents were undocumented but the children were U.S. citizens. But at that time, there was a witchhunt to get rid of all the communists and all the labor unions and also because the economic crisis, the Great Depression and so forth, they deported the family even though the kids were U.S. citizens. It’s similar to what’s happening today where the children are U.S. citizens but the parents are not. And then, you have the option of leaving the children alone in this country or taking them with you to Mexico or to whatever country they are. So, that happened to my parents. And then, my -- we were very poor. Agricultural people working the land. And so, after my mother [00:02:00] separated from my 1 �husband [sic] and after I was born and my sister was born, she came back to the U.S. in the 1950s. And she ended up in Brawley, which happens to be were Felicitas is. And Brawley is an agricultural town in southern California. And there, my mother was a housemaid for about 13, 14 years. And eventually she was able to bring my sister and myself to the U.S. in the 1960s. But it took her about 11, 12 years to save enough money and to fix the papers even though when she started fixing the papers there was nothing to fix because her being a U.S. citizen, we automatically get the U.S. citizenship. So, had she known that then, she [00:03:00] probably would have brought us sooner. I lived in -JJ: What was your mom’s name? LG: My mother’s name is [Marrubio?]. But she lived in this house, and it easier to say [Nelly?] than Marrubio. So, her name was changed to Nelly, officially too. My mother, up until the day she side, she signed with Nelly, even though her name was Marrubio. JJ: And your dad? What was his name? LG: My dad’s name is -- JJ: Did you call him dad? LG: Yeah no, my dad’s -- I don’t call him dad. JJ: Okay. What do you call him? LG: He’s my -- my paternal family comes from China, and they migrated in about 1980s. There was a great famine in China. And my grandfather migrated. He was a kid. He was about 15, 16 years old. And everyone was coming to the Americas. It didn’t matter -- [00:04:00] not everybody ended up in San 2 �Francisco. My grandfather ended up in Baja, California and worked in Santa Rosalia in the copper mines. But eventually he crossed the Sea of Cortez into Sonora and then eventually -JJ: What was his name? Do you know? LG: My Chinese name is [Lian?]. JJ: And your father’s name was -- what? LG: My father’s name is [Raul Leon?] because he Mexicanized his name. So, the last name is Lian, and then, Leon as closest as far as the Spanish. So, his name is Raul Leon. But I -- JJ: What type of work was he doing? LG: I think he did a lot of number of jobs. He worked in Sonora in the railroads, building the railroads. JJ: Oh, so, he’s in Mexico. LG: In Mexico. He never came to the U.S. He was born in Mexico. And he [00:05:00] -- that’s where he died. But he worked in the railroad. What he told me is that he was the leader of the communist unit. And because of the political work that he was doing, he was blackballed and he wasn’t able to get any more. And he was fired. So, he was practically ran out of the town and the state of Sonora. And Sinaloa is south of Sonora. So, he ended up in Sinaloa. But in Sinaloa, he was a tailor by profession. In fact, that’s how my mother and he met. My mother started working with him because my mother was 23 years old. And she was an old maid. So, she could no longer stay with her parents because she had to survive, make her own living. So, she -- from the time until she went to 3 �that town and found work -- and she found [00:06:00] work with my father, and then, it all became. I’m a flower child or a love child. JJ: And were there any other children? LG: He had five others from another woman, I guess, wife. And he had two with my mother. JJ: Do you know their names? LG: No. I never wanted to find out. JJ: What about the ones that he had with your mom? LG: Oh, yeah. My sister. It’s only two. (Spanish) [00:06:31] JJ: (Spanish) [00:06:33] LG: (Spanish) [00:06:35] She looks more Chinese than me. But that’s our feud, our fight. Carmen says I look more Chinese. And I say, “No, you look more Chinese.” Being Chinese in Mexico was not a very popular thing or whatever. There was a lot of prejudism [sic] against the Chinese [00:07:00] in Mexico. And so, we grew up, I guess, used to but not liking it, the fact that we were different than other people. And it was always pointed out, no matter -- when we went to the mercado or we went to -- wherever we were with my grandfather. It always happened that someone stopped us or stopped him and asked him, “Oh, what are they? Chinitas or japonesas?” And my grandfather, being such a Mexican nationalist, he would always say, “Son Mexicanas. Don’t forget that. Son Mexicanas.” Of course, Carmen and I would say, “Why does he get so mad? Of course we’re Mexican. What else can we be?” We actually didn’t know that my father was Chinese until much later because people kept asking us and we 4 �started asking. And then, my mother told us, “Yeah, [00:08:00] your father is half Chinese, half Mexican.” JJ: Is this after you grew up? LG: Yeah. My mother and him didn’t separate on very good terms. So, I did not see - my mother has never -- my mother came to the U.S. and she never went back to her hometown in Mexico. And she never wanted to. I think her memories are not very good, for whatever reason. I don’t know if it’s the relationship with my father or whatever. But she never went back. But she remarried. And after my stepfather died -- his name is [Salome?]. He’s from Durango. After my -- the best, the greatest person I’ve ever met in my life. He was the kindest -- JJ: Your stepfather? LG: Yeah, my stepfather. He was just an outstanding human being. So, after he passed away, that’s when my sister and I decided to go back to Mexico and hook up with my father and find out more of our history because we didn’t know [00:09:00] where we were -- I mean, one side of us, we knew where we were, Mexican side. But the Chinese side, we didn’t have any idea. So, after my stepfather passed away, then we went back and looked for -- well, we didn’t look for him. We knew where he was. And we had a little short meeting. And he told us. JJ: What did you find out? LG: That he was a motherfucker. (laughter) I’m sorry. You can erase it. No, he -- no, I shouldn’t say that. I think he was a man of his times. And in Mexico, you always have a casa grande and a casa chica. Casa grande is where you have 5 �your marriage, your legal family, you know, your children and your legitimate children. Casa chica is where you have your other woman and the children, illegitimate children. I happen to be from [00:10:00] casa chica. So, when I asked my father why -JJ: We called her coteja. LG: Pardon me? JJ: Did he have a coteja, another woman on the side that you have to raise. LG: Yes. JJ: Yeah, they still take care of her but -- LG: Yeah. And they -- JJ: And that doesn’t exist as much now. But used to exist there. LG: And the -- JJ: So, what do you call it there? LG: Casa chica. And the rule is that if a man has enough money, he could have as many casa chicas as he wants to because he can provide for them. So, I know I was one of the casa chicas. I don’t know if he had other casa chicas. So, my mother was advised but her godmother that, especially after we were born, it was best for her to leave. It wasn’t so much for her [00:11:00] but it was for Carmen and I because we really did not have any future in my town. It was very small. And either we were either going to be always (Spanish) [00:11:11], illegitimate children and we’re always going to be singled out, pointed at, and so forth. So, she didn’t think there was much future for us if we stayed in Mexico. So, that’s why my mother left. And because my mother left -- he was about 27 years old. It 6 �took a lot of courage for her to do that. But when my mother left, my father was mad. He got very upset because -- I asked him, “Why have a casa chica? Why have a casa grande.” He says, “Because I had the money.” So, that shut me up. And then, I said, “Well, after my mother left, why didn’t you look for us or take care of us and provide for us,” not that we needed it or anything. But we certainly needed, I think, [00:12:00] his affection. He said, “Because once your mother left, I had no responsibility whatsoever towards you, towards her or the children because she had everything here. I had a house for her. You guys were well taken care of.” So, that’s what he said. So, that’s why I say -- I didn’t want to say he was an MF. But it was just he was a man of his times. JJ: So, a man of his time -- you meant -- so, he was disowning you because -- LG: Disowning us, yeah. JJ: Your mom left. LG: So, once my mother left -- JJ: And he thought he was correct in what he was doing. LG: Oh, yeah. JJ: He was a man of his times. LG: That was the surprise and astonishment that when I’m asking him questions, he’s (Spanish) [00:12:53], you know, straight and not ashamed or anything. It was like he was just telling things as a matter of fact. That’s the way things [00:13:00] -- in fact, he did tell me, “Oh, this is the way things are in Mexico.” So, I happened to find out later that it was not just in Mexico but in almost all -- every country, many places. But anyway, coming back to the United States, we -- I had 7 �the opportunity when I -- one of the things that happens when you immigrate her and you start -- want to go to school is at that time -- they don’t do it anymore. But the school system -- they put you three or four years behind because you don’t know the language. So, I was supposed to be in sixth grade, and they put me back in third grade. So, that was like three years behind. And so, as I went through school, I started realizing [00:14:00] when I went into my high school, my freshman year, that I was going to graduate when I was 20 years old. And the thought of being that old -- and also, I was 11 years old. I had my period. And there I was with kids that were seven years old or eight years old. And it was embarrassing, the whole experience and very humiliating to be able to go to school at that age. JJ: What school was this? LG: Brawley. And what was the name of the school? [Ruth?]? FELICITAS NUÑEZ:(inaudible) LG: No, I went to Ruth -- (Spanish) [00:14:43] I can’t remember. But it was in the borderline of the Mexican side and the other side, the white side or [dónde vivían los rancheros]. And that’s because of the kind of work my mother did. She cleaned houses. JJ: Are you talking about the country of Mexico? LG: No, I’m talking about Brawley, the town [00:15:00] of Brawley here in the United States. JJ: Okay. So, there was a dividing line in Brawley? LG: Yeah. 8 �JJ: So, it was segregated. LG: Yeah. It wasn’t legal segregation. But there was a Mexican side of town and then there was the other side. JJ: A white side. Okay. So, like (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). LG: And it was because of the line of work that my mother did too that we lived kind of in the border, in the edge of both. JJ: Because she was not in the fields. LG: She was cleaning. Yeah. She wasn’t working in the fields. Mostly everyone that lived in the Mexican side of town worked in the fields, did agricultural work. My mother was cleaning houses. So, she was closer to the houses that she was cleaning or to that señoras so that we happened to go to that school. But anyway, just the other thing -- and it’s just -- they really don’t want you to speak Spanish or they didn’t. You had to speak English. JJ: In Brawley? LG: Yeah. Well, that [00:16:00] was in any school in that time. You were punished when you spoke Spanish. And I happened to be punished. One time I couldn’t play one recess because they overheard me speak Spanish. JJ: You couldn’t play what? LG: I couldn’t go and play during recess because they overheard me speak Spanish. So, the teacher punished me. They told me to stand by a tree while other kids were playing. But I have to tell you that I had a great teacher. My third-grade teacher was the first teacher here in the U.S. And her name is [Mrs. Satin?]. And she was so kind and a real teacher in the sense of she knew that I didn’t 9 �speak Spanish. I think I was the only one in the classroom. But she made sure that everything -- I would understand everything that was going on. She had an - there was [00:17:00] a classmate. Her name was [Lourdes?]. And she was my translator, my interpreter. And she would -- after she would explain what we have to do, then Mrs. Satin says, “You come to where my desk is and then Lourdes will come to me.” And then, she would explain to me what the lesson was and so forth. So, she was really, really good. I mean, I think because of that experience -JJ: And you said you didn’t speaking. What did you mean -- LG: I mean, I didn’t speak English. I’m sorry. I didn’t speak English. But because of the experience that I had with Mrs. Satin, I think that’s why I loved school. I mean, was a very good student with very high grades. Anyway, then I -- at 17, that was my freshman year, I decided -- JJ: Freshman year where? LG: High school, Brawley -- FN: Union High School. LG: Brawley Union High School. We all went to the same high school. Different years. [00:18:00] I decided I couldn’t wait to graduate until I was 20 years old. So, there was a program that I found out. It was a high school equivalency program. And it was a program for high school dropouts that work in the field, in the campo, for children of the farm workers in California. And so, the program was in San Diego State. And so, I applied for it. JJ: This is before you left school? You were already thinking of dropping out? 10 �LG: I was already of thinking of dropping out. JJ: But you had a plan. LG: And I was still in school. In fact, I left on a Sunday, and my last day in school was Friday. But I was already thinking that I was going to drop out anyway. But I wasn’t going to drop out into nothing. I was going to continue with my education. And that was the only reason I could leave the house at 17 because I was going somewhere. [00:19:00] So, my mother -- there was problems about me leaving, not so bad, but my mother wanted me to go. She thought that I should continue my education. She felt that she didn’t want us to end up cleaning toilets like she did. I mean, it’s an honorable job. But she aspired for us to do more. I mean, that’s the reason she was here in the United States. So, she really was backing me up to go. My stepfather was not. He was very scared. He was very scared because I was 17. To him, I was very naïve. He had a (Spanish) [00:19:46] kind of -- didn’t know where things were. And so, it was 1969, and it was the -- the schools were up in arms in the campuses. There was the Black Panthers on TV. [00:20:00] There was the peace movement against the Vietnam War. And the country wasn’t that stable for him to send his daughter to college away even though it was only like 90 miles from Brawley. JJ: But did he mention this or you’re just recollecting? LG: Yeah. JJ: But he specifically mentioned Black Panthers and all those - LG: My stepfather was an atheist and also -- JJ: What’s his name? Did we get his name? 11 �LG: [Salome Coral?]. He was an atheist. And also, he -- I found out later -- oh, one time when I came from school, he were doing a report on the Soviet Union. And he always checked our work and discussed our homework with us which was very strange [00:21:00] for that time too because -- that’s why I’m saying he was a wonderful man. So, I had written this whole report about the Soviet Union, how awful it was because there was no democracy and how great the United States was and I loved it and this and that. And he said, “Well, how do you know that they don’t have democracy in the Soviet Union?” And I go, “My teacher told me. It’s in the books.” And he says, “You read one book and you heard one person say that. And you’re just going to believe them?” And I go, “Well, why not? It’s my teacher.” And he says, “No, you have to ask, you have to think, you have to read. And then, you make your opinion.” And I was saying, “Are you a communist or what?” And he said, “No, but I want you to be a thinker and not just take for granted what people are saying as the truth.” And he says, “Find out for yourself.” And I think that was the best [00:22:00] advice he gave me. Find out. Don’t just swallow all the stuff (inaudible) and just do whatever. JJ: So, he was familiar with all these schools? LG: So, he was -- yeah, we watched the -- if there was something I didn’t like about my stepfather it was that he watched the news. He watched the five o’clock news, the seven o’clock news, and the ten o’clock news. No matter what programs there were, whatever, we had -- and he made us watch the news. And I would get so mad at him because I would tell him, “It’s the same news. What they said at five o’clock, it’s the same thing they’re saying at seven, and it’s the 12 �same thing they’re saying at 10.” Of course there was no Internet, no nothing. Right? So, it was the same news. And he kept saying, “Things might change in a couple of hours. You don’t know. You have to be informed.” And so, that’s how he knew about what was going on in the world, watching TV. [00:23:00] He always read the paper every day. I mean, even though the Brawley news didn’t have much. But he did with the paper -- and so, he forced us to watch the news. So, we were aware of what was going on. And so, he was afraid for us or for me that here I was, going into this world, and someone was going to influence me into doing something that was not the best for me. Of course, it didn’t happen the way he said it. But being in San Diego away from home in the height of the Chicano movement, of course I was going to be influenced by what was happening there, the movement for civil rights for Mexicanos and Chicanos. And even though at first I didn’t see myself as a Chicana because I was born in Mexico, it was later that I called myself as a Chicana because being a Chicana [00:24:00] meant that you were for the rights of your people, of Mexican Americans and people that were living here in the United States. And so, of course I was for those rights. So, I called myself as a Chicana. And everybody around me -- I lived in San Diego and every Chicano or Chicano that you saw -they were involved in they movement. They talked about the movement. And they always wanted the HEP students -- it was 40 of us that were going through that program. JJ: Everybody is -- oh, in the program. You were all taking about -- 13 �LG: Well, we were from that ranchitos from around California. And then, the students -- there were already students going to San Diego that were also from the ranchitos. But they were already politicized. And so, they were talking about the movement. And introducing [00:25:00] the new ones like us from HEP into the Chicano movement. JJ: They HEP? So, what do you mean the HEP? LG: It’s high school equivalency program. We were HEP students. JJ: You were ahead of the time. LG: And the Chicano students were [hepeada?], la hepeada, you know? JJ: Okay. Hepeana now from (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). LG: No, no, no, HEP, from the initials of the program. And so, whenever there was going to be march that the MECha students were organizing or the Chicanas wanted to do this or whatever, they always said, “For this, ask the hepeada,” because there were 40 of us that we can go in the bus and we could make a big rally and scream with our posters and whatever. So, that’s how I was introduced into the Chicano movement, not intellectually but mainly through the people that I knew, the students that I knew in San Diego State at the university and [00:26:00] talking to them, dialoguing. And little bit little -- and going to the marches, you know, going to the marches for -- at the border of Tijuana and San Isidro. JJ: Oh, there were marches right at the border? LG: Yeah, yeah. JJ: What was that representing? What were they trying to do? 14 �LG: The marches at the border were for the better treatment of indocumentados, people that were here in the border. JJ: At that time. LG: Yeah. Or that were -- better working conditions. Yeah, at that time. So, there were a couple in there. And then, we also -- the governor -- Reagan was the governor at that time, around that time. There were always demonstrations against him, that the students -- that we had for what he represented. JJ: They didn’t like him then? (laughter) LG: Oh gosh, no. They hated him. Well, not everyone in California because he won two terms. No? [00:27:00] But certainly the students did not like him at all. And then, there were just conferences that we had to go to. There were student conferences MECha would organize to introduce high school students into a college environment. JJ: So, this group of about 40 was always active in something, in some kind of a -- LG: Yes. Some of them joined the Brown Berets. Some of them joined the Chicanas, like I did, and the Teatro. Some of the guy -- some of the other guys joined Teatro Mestizo. We were very active. And a group of us, after we got our high school diploma -- then we enrolled into San Diego state and started going to San Diego State. JJ: Okay. So, this wasn’t San Diego State. This was the high school or -- LG: No, it was San Diego State University. They called it San Diego State University. JJ: Oh, but you studied even before you went to San Diego State University. [00:28:00] 15 �LG: Yeah. But the HEB program was in San Diego State, was part of that campus. JJ: I see. So, part of it was to try to get students into -- LG: Yeah, interested into high education. So, it wasn’t -- I think I met Felicitas in 1970s, I think. It was before the Chicana organized the tea for our mothers. So, 1970. I would hear about this woman Felicitas that was real -- JJ: What did you hear about her? LG: (Spanish) [00:28:37]. (laughs) A very brave and courageous woman that all the women, all the Chicanas loved and respected and all the guys fears. (laughter) So, she was a very militant person. [00:29:00] JJ: What would the guys fear her? LG: Because there was a lot of machismo in our student organization. And she did not stand for that kind of ideology that said that men were better than the women. And so, in a way -- well, it was fighting for women’s rights and that equality in the movement, in the Chicano movement. And that’s sort of what inspired the forming of Teatro de las Chicanas in 1971 by both Felicitas and Delia Ravelo that we -- I mean, we started -- they started out by doing a skit for the mothers, for their mothers to come into the campus so that they could relate to them what it was to go to college, the problems that they were facing, the issues [00:30:00] of drugs, sex, and the machismo so that they could be that kind of understanding between mothers and daughters. I was not a student at San Diego State at that time. I was at HEB getting my high school diploma. But as a HEB student -some of the HEB students attended that. And it was at that time at that conference that I realized that I kind of changed by thinking about being 16 �Mexicana and being a Chicana. I think the conference, that gathering was very educational for the mothers but also for the new students that were coming into San Diego State and into the Chicano movement to understand what we were all about. So, after that skit that they did [00:31:00] -- what was the name of the skit? “Chicano Goes to College.” That the Teatro stayed. Delia and Felicitas -that the Teatro stayed. And the recruit women students and Chicanas into the Teatro. And the main focus of the Teatro, of the skits at the beginning back in ’71, ’72 was fighting against the ideology of the machismo, the male supremacy and all of that. All of our skits were against that. And that was sort of our continuity from -JJ: So then, what did you show on your skit? I mean, what (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? LG: [Speaking 00:31:44 Pues, te voy a decir.] We had a very famous skit (Spanish) [00:31:50]. JJ: Yeah. Tell me about that. I don’t know remember. LG: But you say, “Bronca, bronca, bronca, bronca.” So say it like that and it really ends up being cabron. [00:32:00] And so, cabron is -- what -- FN: It’s like a goat. LG: It’s like an asshole. Cabron, he’s being an asshole. And so, that’s what -- I think people remember us more for that skit that was like five minutes long than all the stuff that we did. I mean, we did actos that were half an hour or longer. FN: Right. “La Madre.” 17 �LG: “The Mother” was almost an hour. But everyone remembers “Bronca.” Everyone remembers “Bronca” because -- and it wasn’t very popular with the men or with the women. The women that that we were too much -- you know, too blunt and that there were better ways of talking to the guys about their male supremacy. And then, the guys -- of course, they didn’t like [00:33:00] us. They didn’t like iot because we were calling them assholes in public. So, it was like calling them out to fight with us or that we were ready to fight them. And one of the -- some of the lines are, “Why do you think (Spanish) [00:33:16]?” You know, do you see pots and pans hanging from me? Every time we’re discussing the conference and who’s going to take care of the food, all the guys look at the women to see who’s going to volunteer. You know, it’s not just the job of women but of men. And then, we would say “bronca.” It’s like, “Come on.” Let’s duke it out. And of course, they didn’t like it. The funny thing -- and I think it’s very funny because in politics and the movement, there’s always love, relationships. There was the Teatro de Chicanas, all women, and then there was Teatro Mestizo, which was men and women. [00:34:00] And Felicitas and myself -- were we the only ones? There were other women, but they were not part of the Teatro de Chicanas. Felicitas and I belonged to both teatros. So, we toured together. There was a spot they would get -- or if there was a spot that we would get at a university, the two teatros would go together. And so, the Teatro Mestizo would perform and then the Teatro de Chicanas would perform. JJ: What was the difference? 18 �LG: Teatro Mestizo did all the plays that were written by Teatro Campesino, by Luis Valdez or that supposedly were written by Luis Valdez. And there was a organization Teatros Nacionales de Aztlan. And it was a grouping of all the teatros in all the universities throughout the Southwest. It was a very important organization at one time. And the ones that were [00:35:00] heading that organization was Teatro Campesino, Luis Valdez. And so, most of the actos and the skits that were performed in the Chicano movement in the different universities were written by Teatro Campesino and Luis Valdez, like “No Saco Nada de la Escuela,” I don’t get anything from school -- I don’t know -- Soldado Razo, which was an acto against the Vietnam War. But one of the -- so, that was -- the actos -- and they were good. I don’t have any complaint about the message. But there was one thing that they were at fault, and that was the way they portrayed women because women were either virgins not to be touched only to be looked at or prostitutes. FN: Or mothers. LG: Yeah. And that -- loose women [00:36:00] that should not be respected. And that’s not the Chicanas. I mean, we are that, but we’re not. But we’re also a bunch of other stuff. There’s different grades of who the Chicanas are. And for the most part not a recognition that we’re equal just like they were. So, because of that, we wrote our own skits, our own actos that portrayed women as strong women, that dealt with issues of the women such of pregnancies and so forth and looked for solutions that we were looking at at that time not a solution that someone else was telling us to do, whether it be religious institutions or 19 �government or just the culture, our culture, of what we should do. So, the plays were written by the Teatro. It was a collective process in the -JJ: What issues did you [00:37:00] write? LG: We would deal with pregnancy, with -- the one I was telling you, “Bronca,” male supremacy. We dealt with drugs. And we also started dealing with labor issues because it was Teatro de Chicanas, 1971. And after that it became Teatro Laboral. And then, we ended up -- and at the end it was Teatro Raices, which ended up 1985. So, as our thinking changed, our ideology -- we started out with women’s rights, but then it became workers’ rights and it became being inclusive of everyone. And seeing that some of the issues affected everyone whether they were Black or white or Brown. I mean, the issue of drugs is an industry, and it affects everyone. The issue of [00:38:00] working conditions affects everyone. So, we started dealing with that, with working conditions. And the thing that Teatro is known for among us is that something’s happening somewhere where one of the Teatro members is -- one of the stories in the book is [Sandra Gutierrez?] is in Coachella working or living there -- well, she’s from there. And then, she happens to -- the community starts organizing against this teacher that slapped one of the students. And they’re really riled up in the UFW because it was very strong there in Coachella. And they also started also being part -- they organized the community against that. So, Sandra calls the -- I believe Felicitas or Delia and says, “This is what’s happening in Coachella. [00:39:00] They’re having a big meeting tomorrow. Can you guys come down and perform?” (laughs) And that was like (inaudible). So, as they’re driving -- I was not part of 20 �that -- as they’re driving over there, they’re writing the skit. “You’re going to be so-and-so. You’re going to be the teacher. You’re going to be the student. You’re going to be the mother and everything.” And then, everybody’s trying to -we didn’t really write lines at first. It was just this is sort of what you’re supposed to say, like the theme and the message. And then, we would ad lib it. So, that’s how. And then -JJ: What about practice? When would you practice? LG: Forget practice. (laughs) JJ: You didn’t practice. LG: That was one of the things that Teatro Campesino did. They would -- all the time they would criticize our form. And I think it was really -- they were not happy with the content either because they were very cultural and nationalistic and so forth. [00:40:00] And we were like working class. You know? But they always -- they couldn’t say that -- or they never did say it, but they did say, “It’s their form. They don’t know how to act. They’re so embarrassing to see them out there.” But maybe the form wasn’t great, but the message was good. And the audience’s reaction was that they loved it. Then we had a question and answer after each acto. And we would stand there. And whatever questions people wanted to know, we would answer. So, it was part of the educational process, not just doing the skit or the acto but then the Q&A. And then, we’d further the ideas and so forth. So, the Teatro was very effective. I mean, ask me. (laughter) Don’t ask anybody else. 21 �JJ: But it just looks natural. You also involved audience, right? [00:41:00] Or you didn’t. When you did a dinner -- LG: Yes, (Spanish) [00:41:06]. Yeah. We always involved audiences because we never had enough people. Like I said, that trip to Coachella was whoever could take off from work, get a babysitter, or drag the kids with us that were -- if people had kids by then. Well, I mean, we all started having kids kind of young. So, it was that. So, then, if we need someone to play a certain role and we see someone or if (Spanish) [00:41:33], if they come close to us and they’re friendly, we say, “Oh, we need you to do this.” And then, before you know it, she’s acting or he’s acting or whatever. So, yeah, we do try to involve the audience. And in fact now that -- when we started touring about our book Teatro de las Chicanas, we -- people -- some of the woman gravitated to us [00:42:00] from the conference and some of them because part of the Teatro and did perform with us. We have a skit called -- we did one on -- as a tribute to Las Mujeres de Juarez. And then, some of the women that were not in the Teatro back then were performing this time. But going back to 1971 -- I have to tell you a story. Because all of the sudden Nefelez was gone. We were in school. We were in the university. (Spanish) [00:42:34] Nobody knew. But then, a few months later, there she comes. And she comes dressed in her militant -- her uniform after that. It was her jeans, her boots, and the army jacket that you later told me that it was your brother’s from the Vietnam War. And she always wore that and (Spanish) [00:42:55]. So, we asked -- I asked, [00:43:00] “Where were you?” And she started talking about -- she had come to Chicago because she was near. She 22 �had met someone from the Young Lords. And she had come to spend the summer or a few months here in Chicago to help. While she was here she did the murals. She did some murals and stuff like that. But it was the first time that I had heard of the Young Lords. And the first time like, “Oh, okay.” And it was kind of neat because one of the things about the Teatro -- I don’t want to speak for the Chicano movement because it wouldn’t be right because it’s not true -- but the Teatro is that we always looked to connect with different people. No importa what nationality they were and so forth. And that was one of the things that I think in the ’70s that I think [00:44:00] it hurt the movements was the separation of the different movements, the Chicano movement over here, the African Americans over here, the Native Americans, the women’s movement and so forth. Even though there were (inaudible) there was also a lot of efforts to separate us. And I think it was because of the money. There was so much money given to MECha, so much money given to the student body, so much money given to that organization. So, whether we wanted to or not, we were scrambling for the crumbs among ourselves. But one of the things about the Teatro de las Chicanas that I really liked was the internationalism of especially Felicitas and Delia, that openness about it that, “Yeah, we can go and talk to people and share ideas and learn about their struggles and so forth.” [00:45:00] So, that was the first time that I had heard of the Young Lords. And then -- when was it? Here in -JJ: You mentioned a little bit about Delia. LG: Delia? Delia was a beautiful sister that -- (phone ringing) 23 �(break in audio) LG: About Delia Ravelo -- I don’t even know when I met Delia. But I know I met Delia after Felicitas because first I met Felicitas and [Chiba?], [Celia Romero?]. And then, afterwards I met Delia. but Delia -- what can I say about Delia? Delia was just a beautiful soul, beautiful soul, but always had words of encouragement. And I think that’s [00:46:00] one of the things that we needed at that time. You’re 17, you’re 18. You’re doing different things that are out of the norm. You’re breaking with your culture, your -- everything that you’ve been taught. And so, as you step into these new waters, you do need reinforcement. And that’s one of the things that Delia did. “Come on Chinita, (Spanish) [00:46:27], you can do it, Chinita. (Spanish) [00:46:29],” this and that and whatever. And it was -- I kind of really liked that the leadership between -- that both Felicitas and Delia provided because Delia was softspoken with a lot of encouragement. And Felicitas was a little bit more fuerte. And I think you need that. When you’re like, “I don’t know. I’m scared. What are people going to say? I don’t know if I can do it.” You need the soft [00:47:00] voice or leadership that says, “Yes, you can do it.” And then, you need then other one, “Andale,” you know? Because I remember several times that Felicitas had to almost physically push me on the stage (laughs) because I said, “I can’t do it. I have to go to the bathroom. I have to go number two.” And it was like boing, there I am on stage. And then, that happiness that you get, that saying, “Oh my gosh. I really can do it.” And that was what -- Delia 24 �provided that encouragement and so did Felicitas. I remember when I did “Chicana Goes to College,” it wasn’t for our mothers. It was a different time. And [Teresa Oyo?] -- she’s in our book. And she was my mother, and I was a daughter. And I was like shaking because I was talking and saying my lines. And I whispered to Teresa. (Spanish) [00:47:57] You know, my hands are shaking. And she says, “Don’t worry about it. I’m going to told them really tight [00:48:00] so no one can know.” And that was really good. That’s what I needed, you know, someone to hold me (laughter) real tight as I’m talking. But that’s the kind of courage that it took of the women back then and the kind of reassurance that we needed from our sisters to be there when we get weak, for someone to encourage us and to push us forward. And Delia and Felicitas certainly did that. I think her dying in ’95 was really something -- I don’t want to say sad -- but she certainly is missed. She’s a person that filled up the whole room with her personality. And she was -- she had a really good sense of humor. She was always cracking jokes or, “Come on. Let’s do this and let’s do that,” or whatever. [00:49:00] And I also remember that she was -- one of the things I liked about her is that she didn’t care how she looked. This is when I first met her. I think later she might have, or maybe she did -- whatever. But (Spanish) [00:49:16 00:49:27]. And the way I was raised it I had to dress nice like a señorita. When I went to college -- I guess all of us Chicanas (Spanish) [00:49:35] with our little dresses and our -- well, they weren’t using pantyhose -- but our stockings and the garter belt and everything. And it was so stiff. And when you get there and you see this person like -- se va -- there goes the bra. (laughter) And it was great. 25 �It was just really great to be part of that time and having the sisters like Delia around. And not only [00:50:00] Delia, all of the women of Teatro de -- they helped mold us. And we helped mold them and they helped us mold -- it was real reciprocal of encouragement. And (Spanish) [00:50:18] but that’s one of the things. (Spanish) [00:50:21] but then we’ve got to perform. And then, we got to take care of the babies. and then, it’s your turn to take care of the babies. Or I’ll hold the baby while you go and say your line (Spanish) [00:50:32] We were always exchanging and helping each other out. But I left San Diego in ’78 and then moved to San Francisco. JJ: Did you go to school there in San Diego? LG: You know, I’m one of those chicas -- I went to San Diego State up until my third year, and I didn’t graduate. I’m one of the Chicanas that was pregnant. [00:51:00] And I advise everyone to use contraceptives so that doen’t happen. Please. Because you always think (Spanish) [00:51:07] And I think Latinas -well, at that time -- I don’t know now. But I think it’s always worth it to say -- JJ: What was your child’s name? LG: My son -- my first son is [Emilio?]. But then, so, there I was pregnant. And so, my husband and I -- he was 19. I was 20. And so, we decided -- JJ: What was his name? LG: [Jose?]. He’s still my husband. (laughs) So then, we want to have the baby. (Spanish) [00:51:45] And so, there we go. We get into this little car from San Diego State to Yuma -- my parents lived in Yuma -- to tell them that, no, “You’re going to be grandparents, but no wedding.” Of course, little did I know. 26 �[00:52:00] Of course, we get to the house. I tell my mother while my stepfather is talking to Jose. And then, my mother starts screaming, “No.” You know, (Spanish) [00:52:13]. And then, Jose tells me -- he said, “Oh, when I heard your mom screen, the TV went like this. I thought I was going to faint. And then, your stepfather said, (Spanish) [00:52:25]. So then, he came to the bedroom and (Spanish) [00:52:30] -- with the alcohol -- (laughter) [00:52:33] (Spanish) to remind people -- (Spanish) [00:52:37] And then, he says -- my mom revives. He said, (Spanish) [00:52:43]. And she said, [00:52:45] (Spanish). And then, my father says, “Oh well, we knew that was going to happen, being away from home. She’s young and so forth. So, that’s not a big deal. (Spanish) [00:52:56] my mom says, (Spanish) [00:52:58] And then, my father says, “Oh no. She’s going to get married, and she’s not leaving here until she gets married.” I go, “What?” And he says, “Yeah.” And he got the local pages and he got the hospital or something -- clinic to do the blood test because at that time they had to have the blood test. And then, we went to Winter Haven where people go and have short marriages or whatever. And there we walk in barefooted with our jeans and tshirt, going -- walking down the aisle to get married that night. JJ: Jeans and t-shirt, barefooted, hippie style? LG: Yes. (laughs) JJ: Okay. You guys (inaudible). LG: With the hair like this. I don’t know why I thought it was so cool to be barefooted. I think it’s also -- JJ: (laughter) And pregnant. 27 �LG: And pregnant, you know? (Spanish) [00:53:55] You know, that way you didn’t have to buy shoes or something. [00:54:00] But anyway, yes, I can say that I had a shotgun wedding. And yes, tradition still -- I was very liberated. My parents were not. (laughs) And so, I left the house. I got there at four o’clock. I left the house at eight o’clock after I was married to San Diego. So, (Spanish) [00:54:27]. But I don’t know why I was saying that. FN: I think he asked your husband’s name. But you were going to talk a little bit about the reunion of the Young Lords in Grand Rapids. LG: Oh, I know why I talked about that. Because after college we all went different ways. And I happened to go to San Francisco. And then, eventually I ended up here in Chicago in 1981. JJ: Had you been there in Chicago before? [00:55:00] LG: No. Well, I had come in 1974 because (Spanish) [00:55:02] Felicitas got us politically involved and awakened, I joined a -- I became a member of -- JJ: What does that mean? Politically -- LG: Politically awakened. JJ: But I thought you were already political awakened. LG: Yeah. But I took the next step in 1974 to commit myself to an organization. I joined a political party. I joined the Communist Labor Party in ’74. JJ: The Communist Labor Party in San Diego? LG: (Spanish) [00:55:34] in a church that was on Ashland, big church there around Van Buren or whatever. 28 �JJ: Right, right. Panthers -- and we used to have political education classes there at that church. LG: (Spanish) [00:55:48] JJ: That’s where the Communist Labor Party started? LG: In 1974 there was a big meeting. JJ: Nineteen seventy-four? But did you commit to that (inaudible)? LG: Yes. I came to that meeting. [00:56:00] JJ: From San Diego? LG: From San Diego, yeah. JJ: So, how did you get started in San Diego thinking about (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? LG: I started in San Diego because one of the things -- first, it was getting involved in the Chicano movement for our people’s rights, women’s rights. But then, my vision started expanding to include the working class regardless of color and so forth. JJ: How did your vision start expanding? LG: I think a lot of it -- even though your conditions don’t make you -- don’t change you, they certainly help you. I mentioned before -- I come from a very, very, very poor beginnings (Spanish) [00:56:46] sometimes we would go hungry. And just living in the -- I lived in -- it’s a funny thing. In Sinaloa, I was a healthy child up until seven. Then in order to be closer to my parents, we moved to Mexicali, a border town because California and Mexicali, Baja California. That way my mom could just come over on weekends and see us, her being Hispanic. And so, in 29 �Mexicali, we were very poor. We didn’t have running water. So, I think seeing that poverty and seeing that other people have too much and don’t want to share -- even as a child, even as a young person, you start questioning things. So, I think that -- seeing the injustices, not only socially but economically -JJ: Did you read something? Did you bump into somebody? LG: Well, in Teatro, in Teatro de las Chicanas, we started reading one of the -- and just in study groups. [00:58:00] JJ: The (overlapping dialogues; inaudible) question in study groups? LG: Yes. We read The Women Question. The other thing was in order thing is in order to be part of writing the Teatro, the skits, the actos, we had to read. We had to read the news. We had to read other books about it, some classics on Marx on Engels. JJ: You know, we actually had a Young Lords group in Los Angeles that the Communist Labor Party took over. LG: A Communist Labor Party took over? JJ: They were (inaudible) Labor Party that -- I think it was the group that -- were you in -- did they have a chapter in Los Angeles? LG: Oh yeah, yeah. JJ: They started working with the Young Lords after I left there. LG: Oh, it could be. JJ: And a lot of them became members of that group. And I had also been to San Diego at that time too. 30 �LG: And then, we had a chapter there in San Diego. And then, we also had a chapter in New York. And the chapter in New York was mainly Puerto Rican. [00:59:00] FN: The connection between the Young Lords was [Izzy Chavez?]. Izzy Chavez had joined the chapter you were creating in San Diego. JJ: That’s right. Izzy Chavez -- I’m looking for him. FN: Oh, we know where he’s at. JJ: Oh great (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). FN: So then, what happens is he --- JJ: Izzy Chavez -- I remember him. FN: He’s in Chicago making copies of a newspaper -- I don’t know -- something about some connection to the Young Lords. And he meets Nelson. LG: Oh my gosh. Yeah. Nelson Peery JJ: So, who’s Nelson? LG: Nelson was one of the founders of the Communist Labor Party. JJ: I was underground when they organized that chapter. I was looking for people like Izzy Chavez and then I remembered him. LG: Oh my gosh. Well, we were part of it. JJ: So, that’s what I mean. I thought it was the Communist Labor Party that took over it after I left. LG: Yeah, yeah, most likely, yeah, because they were a grouping of different (Spanish) [00:59:55] and there were different groupings in LA that came together. [01:00:00] JJ: So, he became a member of the Communist -- 31 �LG: What was his name? Do you remember? JJ: Well, you said Izzy Chavez. LG: Oh, Izzy. Oh, (Spanish) [01:00:06]. JJ: Yeah. LG: Oh, okay. Oh, oh, okay. JJ: It’s a small world. FN: And [Mundo Ruiz?]? JJ: Mundo Ruiz. Oh, yeah. (Spanish) [01:00:19] -- I was under when I was organizing the Young Lords chapter. And we were trying to find these people to include them in this project. LG: Oh yeah. We know where Izzy is. We know. And Mundo, I don’t know. FN: I saw him last week. JJ: So, I definitely (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). LG: And then, Nelson lives here in Chicago. JJ: Explain a little bit about Izzy. You know anything (inaudible)? LG: Israel, Izzy. (Spanish) [01:00:41] I have to pronounce the zetas, and it’s hard for me. Izzy, Izzy. (Spanish) [01:00:51] (laughter) So, he used to tell me, “Israel.” I met Israel [01:01:00] back in 1975. He came back from Chicago. He was here in Chicago with his with [Marta?]. And they came back to San Diego to organize a chapter of the Communist Labor Party in San Diego and that’s how I met Izzy because he was in charge of that chapter in San Diego. And his wife -- that’s how I started with the Tribuno del Pueblo. The Tribuno del Pueblo was a publication of the CLP, the Communist Labor Party. It was the bilingual -- or the 32 �Spanish newspaper. And Marta, Israel’s wife, was the editor of the Tribuno de Pueblo. And so, when I joined the party, I left Teatro and Felicitas still mad about that. I left Teatro and I joined the editorial board of Tribuno del Pueblo. And that’s where -- I’ve been working on it since then. Now, the [01:02:00] Tribuno has gone -- okay, the Communist Labor Party is not -- it’s gone. Then out of whatever was left of the Communist Labor Party -- in the ’90s it was dissolved -then there was a national organizing party that was formed to rebuild another organization. And that organization is the Legal Revolutionaries for a New America. And the chair of that organization is [General Baker?]. He’s an auto worker in Detroit. In fact, the Communist Labor Party -- one of the foundations or the backbone of the Communist Labor Party was the auto workers in Detroit. They were -- because they had the League of Revolutionary Black Workers. And the League of Revolutionary Black Workers joined the Communist Labor Party and provided the members and the money because auto workers earn a lot of money [01:03:00] and financed it for a long time. But now it’s a League of Revolutionaries for a New America, and General Baker is the chair. And then, the Tribuno is independent now. It’s not sponsored or published by any organization. It’s independent. It’s based on donations. People get a bundle. They sell it or give them or get donations. And then, we gather enough money. And when we have enough money, then we publish an issue. And it’s actually -the Tribuno del Pueblo became revived after the 2006 marches because -JJ: What were those? Can you -- the 2006 marches? 33 �LG: The 2006 marches was an outcome of a bill, H.B. 4437 that wanted [01:04:00] -that bill was a proposal. It had passed in the House in December of 2005, and it was going into the Senate in 2006. And what it really said -- that anyone that either housed or gave a ride to an undocumented, that aided that person in any way -- that they were going to be arrested and it was going to be a felony. So, the fact that you were going to become a felon just for helping another human being with a ride or social service -- and it was going to include unions and social services. Anyway, that kind of fired the movement and then exploded into the 2006 marches. And it’s the new immigrant rights movement right now. In fact, [Omar?] -- Omar used to be in the Young Lords. [01:05:00] JJ: He was a minister of (inaudible). LG: Omar was one of the founders of the March 10th Movement. That’s what it’s called here in Chicago. JJ: It was part of the same movement? LG: Yeah, because the March 10th Movement did a march -- the 2006 marches -they were mainly around (Spanish) [01:05:20] (laughs) Chicago did their march -thousands of people came out -- in March 10th of 2006, so a couple of days later. Then we did have a primero de mayo marcha. And we had -- I know the official figure said that it wasn’t that many. But I think there was like 500,000 people on the street if not more. It was a beautiful sight. It was just -- JJ: It was here? LG: It was here in Chicago. But then in -- JJ: Five hundred thousand? 34 �LG: In LA, it was a million. [01:06:00] I mean, it was a historic thing of how many Latinos got out into the streets and (Spanish) [01:06:11] and that, pushing the baby carts. That was a symbol of the marches. It’s not one person that you get to a march. It’s like the whole family and la abuelita, los nietos, and everybody just taking the streets and just marching. So, Omar was part of -- is part of that. And it’s still a continuing effort right now. So, that’s how that Tribuno revived after the 2006 marches because -- JJ: Does it come every day? Does it come out -- LG: It comes out, like I said -- depends on the money. Sometimes we get enough to publish it every two months. Sometimes it’s every three months. We’re hoping to publish it at least once a month. [01:07:00] JJ: Do you mail it out or -- LG: Well, we do -- it’s bundles. In 2006 I went to a conference and met with a lot of grassroots organizations on a one-to-one basis, got their information, introduced the paper to them, and then they order bundles. So, we run about a thousand every time and half of those are (audio cut) two thirds of them are distributed by small organizations, grassroot organizations, not the traditional model for [Mapalo?] or LULAC, but the little small organizations, little (Spanish) [01:07:46] and it’s distributed in Rhode Island, Texas, Dallas, California, here, Detroit. But it’s in that way. You might get a bundle of [01:08:00] 500 and then you get it out wherever you go, in your meetings, the restaurants. So, that’s the way it gets distributed. And then, hopefully we’re going to advance to having a listserv. We’re coming up. That way -- this young man is going to help us. We rely a lot 35 �on young people because they have the knowledge to do it. Back to -- I want to say something about -- so, I came in 1981. But I want to talk about a very exciting time in Chicago and that is the Harold Washington campaign. He was running for mayor. He did what no one could and that was unite, unite all of us into a movement. And he always said it was a movement. It was a movement of the people to try to get the city back. [01:09:00] And Harold Washington had the charisma, the spirit, and the love for the people that he wanted to represent. It was amazing being here in Chicago when he was brought in because I would walk down Humboldt Park and it was like we all had our little buttons with the sun, (Spanish) [01:09:23] Harold Washington. And then, we wouldn’t even know each other. But then, they would see my button and I would see their button. And we would go, “Oh, right on.” You know? So, it was like we became -- the city or the people here in Humboldt Park, which is where I live -- everyone was their friends. Everyone was happy to see you. We had something in common. I remember the rally on North Avenue and Western where thousands of Latinos were there to receive him. And it was the -JJ: And it was organized by the Young Lords. [01:10:00] LG: That was organized by the Young Lords. And you were in the podium or on the platform and stuff like that. And I just remembered him walking in, Harold Washington, when he walked in before he got on the stage. And I mean, just hands trying to touch him, trying to shake his hand and it wasn’t because (Spanish) [01:10:24] or anything like that. It was because here was a person that 36 �wanted to represent the interests of our communities (Spanish) [01:10:35]. And then, once he became mayor -JJ: And that was -- wasn’t that one of the first Latino -- LG: Yes, oh yeah. Big one. JJ: It was the first Latino rally for -- LG: Yeah. JJ: And it was organized by the Young Lords. LG: And it was -- I think -- I don’t remember very clearly. But I think it was kind of like kicking off like -- JJ: Kick off. LG: Kick off of his campaign here in [01:11:00] this area and in the Latino community, Humboldt Park, Wicker Park, and also in Pilsen. And also, when I -- Fiesta del Sol, he was already mayor (Spanish) [01:11:14]. You were telling me that he wore a hat that you guys gave him. JJ: (inaudible) LG: Well, in Pilsen, he had a big mariachi hat. And he talked to the people because he was under a lot of attack. Even though he was mayor, he was under a lot of attack. LIAM: (inaudible) LG: Hello, sweetie. Come here. Come here. Want to be on TV? (Spanish) JJ: What’s his name? 37 �LG: His name is [Liam?] and he’s one of my grandsons. I have two granddaughters. Their names are [Katelyn?] and [Gwenyth?]. Say hi. [01:12:00] Say hi. No? You want to go with grandpa now? L: No. LG: No? Okay. Well, you can sit here and write. JJ: So, that was (inaudible) at that time. LG: Yeah. JJ: And it actually was on -- what floor was it? LG: Yeah because he had to go up the stairs. JJ: No elevator. LG: Of course I was young then so I could -- JJ: But it was bad. LG: Yeah. It was. It was like standing. JJ: Did you pay to get in? LG: No, (Spanish) [01:12:28]. (laughter) JJ: Everybody thought (inaudible) but they had tickets. LG: Yeah, yeah. And it was organized (Spanish) [01:12:41], no? I mean, I remember because I remember -- it was like -- I didn’t expect that many people to be there from that community (Spanish) [01:12:52]. But that’s -- he was a great man. JJ: And did you go to the other rally in [Algo?] Park or no, the big one? [01:13:00] LG: I don’t remember. JJ: Like a parade. 38 �LG: No, I don’t remember that. I remember that we certainly organized to get the vote for him. That was the first time that I was -- I became involved in politics, electoral politics because it was very important for people to come out and vote for Harold. And so, I -- knocking on doors, telling them the information and so forth and then that day of the election going to get the people to come, help them and remind them so forth. JJ: So, how did you feel when he won? I mean, because we’re used to picketing, right? But now we got a mayor. So, how did you feel? LG: Great. I felt like I owned the city, like the city was mine, that it was the people’s, the city, and full of hope that things were going to change, that there was a person that really [01:14:00] wanted to fight for our interests. And it was a fight. I mean, that was one of the things he would tell us even after he became mayor and he would talk in different places. He would say, “I’m fighting. But I can’t fight alone. I need you. You represent the movement. You’ve got to be behind me and fighting for your program.” He had a program. JOSE: (Spanish) [01:14:27] LG: I’m videotaping, Jose. JJ: [Overlapping dialogue; inaudible] LG: I know. JJ: I got [inaudible]. J: Come on. Let’s change your diaper. (laughter) LG: Bye. J: Say bye. 39 �LG: It was hot outside. Okay. (Spanish) [01:14:51] So, anyway -- so, yeah. [01:15:00] Now going back to Lincoln Park. But it was a great experience. It was a good way of getting introduced to Chicago. I became a judge, I mean, a judge in the elections. During the elections, the election day they needed people to be judges. They have -- you know, to make sure that everything is legal, that people that come in to vote, they are in the roster, that it’s the right address and everything. And that’s how we did. The Harold Washington campaign had people there, and I was one of them. I played a very small role. I was more like whatever they needed when they could and stuff like that. There were other people that worked hard. JJ: But the election was in the precinct. There was one. [01:16:00] So, it was an important one. LG: At that point I lived in Homan and Potomac. He had a good support there. JJ: And did he win in the Latino area? LG: Yeah. (Spanish) [01:16:16] that machine was very strong in Wicker Park, the Democratic Party machine. I mean, it’s years of them -- the precinct captain going around, telling people who to vote for, and giving them jobs and whatever. That’s the machine. And it was hard to break. JJ: But we broke them. LG: Yes, yes, remember that shock. JJ: That’s what I understand the (inaudible) we broke the machine here. LG: Exactly, the machine was broken. It was broken already. But that was the blow that -- and it was a great time to be involved in politics. 40 �JJ: So, at least we know -- even though we’re [01:17:00] far from it right now, we know what has to be done. LG: Yes, yes (inaudible). We got to have a program of what people need. JJ: What do you think we have to do? What were the lessons? LG: (Spanish) [01:17:19], what I learned from it was that Harold Washington was not - had a program, had a program based on what people needed in the communities, education, housing, fighting the question of issues of drugs and so forth. And he would tell the people, “This is what I’m going to do. This is my platform. This is my program.” And when he was elected mayor, he set out to do that. It’s not like other candidates that say, “(Spanish [01:17:52].” Once they become whatever office they win, then (Spanish). [01:18:00] So, I think to me it’s -- JJ: Well, what happened? You set out to do it. But what happened? LG: What happened to him? JJ: After he got elected. LG: He told the people to fight for the program. JJ: What about you (inaudible) were they supportive? LG: Oh yeah. [01:18:14] (Spanish) and the Black unity of -- at that time, it was really [Losano?]. [Chuy?] was not an alderman, Chuy Garcia. But he was with [Rudy?]. They worked together. And then, [Rush, Bobby Rush?]. (Spanish) [01:18:36]. And [Soliz?] wasn’t there. [Gutierrez?] was not an alderman. JJ: No, he wasn’t. In fact, he was a -- LG: He was a state -- 41 �JJ: He was a precinct member, precinct (inaudible) (laughs) at that time. LG: At that time? JJ: And then, he ran for alderman and we supported him. LG: Yeah, yeah, yeah. JJ: But he was [01:19:00] one of our precinct candidates (inaudible). LG: It opened things up, I think, for -- JJ: Because there were two main offices, [West Town Coalition?] and the one we had on Fullerton, those two main offices on the north side. LG: It was a great time. But I think as far as lessons, it’s to find out what are the needs of people. And based on the needs of people -- I mean, not people -- then you do that. You know? You set out to do that because after all, it’s our tax money. It’s not like they’re going to get money from somewhere else. It’s the taxes that we pay. So, therefore, they should go for what we need, whether it be better schools, more schools, lower classrooms, parks, whatever. And I think sometimes new mayors come in and they think the money’s theirs to do what they want or their [01:20:00] groupings, their friends. And it’s not. So, the money has to go back to the people because it’s the people that put that money there through our taxes. And I think that’s certainly what Harold Washington was trying to do. It was sad that he died. JJ: So, after that you kept working with the -- LG: I kept working with the Tribuno. And also, I became a little bit more -- after the election, I didn’t keep being active in the electoral politics that much except for 42 �certain people that would come around. Like right now, I’m a little bit active with Rudy Lozano, Jr., with his campaign and stuff like that. JJ: Who was Rudy Lozano, Sr.? LG: Rudy Lozano, Sr. was the first Latino alderman and from Pilsen. And he was [01:21:00] a trade unionist, and he was a very progressive person that was killed. And even though they say it was just a criminal act with no reasons -- there was no politics behind -- I tend to think that someone wanted him dead because of what he did in the community and who he represented. He certainly was an advocate for the rights of the undocumented. And at the time that he died, he was organizing undocumented workers. And that’s something that his son, Rudy Lozano, Jr. has also continued and who’s very dear to him as far as the Latino community and the needs and stuff like that. JJ: And you’re working with him right now? [01:22:00] LG: No, just through his campaign, the last campaign that he had. Whatever I can do, I do that. So, that’s someone that I think has a good vision of where Chicago needs to go. I mean, of course, you start small. But eventually, who knows? We might have a Latino president. (laughs) JJ: And you went also to a reunion. LG: Yes. I would publish and our book and everything the Teatro de las Chicanas book in 2008. And then, we -- the Chicanas started getting together again more frequently. But one of the times that we did get together was in -- (Spanish) [01:22:45], 2000 and -- JJ: Two thousand. 43 �LG: Two thousand. But two years ago. Jose said three years. But 2000. FN: Delia Ravelo was still alive. LG: But she didn’t come, did she? FN: No, no, she didn’t. She was in Europe. LG: Yeah. [01:23:00] The Young Lords were having a reunion in Grand Rapids and [Feliz?] -- I guess she got a message from someone that they were going to have a reunion. And so, she organized -- Feliz is a good organizer. She organized -about six of us -- well, I’m here already -- to come to Chicago and to perform. JJ: (inaudible) LG: First they came to Chicago. They stayed in my house, six of them in one room. (laughter) (inaudible) Actually, we stayed up all night. We went to [Rosa’s?] to listen to blues and to another place. FN: Golden something. LG: Gold Mines or Mines something to listen. We stayed up until four or five o’clock in the morning. Now, we’re middle-aged women. (laughter) But we could still kick it. And Jose was our chauffer. He drove us around all over the place. He even took us to Grand Rapids. [01:24:00] Anyway, so, after that, at eight o’clock in the morning, we jump into the van and go to Grand Rapids to meet the Young Lords because we have heard a lot of stories of the Young Lords. And we were very excited to meet them, as a group, and to be part of this celebration and this reunion. It was someone -- a group that we heard about when -- like I was saying before -- back in the ’70s. And now, to actually meet them was really an honor for a lot of us. I know [Inda?] was so excited and [Peggy?] and [Margie?] 44 �and [Gloria?] and myself. And so, as a way of contributing to this celebration, to this reunion, Felicitas wrote an acto on the Lincoln Park gentrification, that whole process that had happened. JJ: It was called “Madre de Corazon.” FN: Oh, yeah. LG: Yeah, “Madre de Corazon.” [01:25:00] JJ: Because we had -- (Spanish) [01:25:02] was our symbol. LG: Oh, okay. Yeah. And it was fun doing it. (Spanish) [01:25:10] JJ: That was the reason. Was that the reasoning? FN: Yeah. [“A La Brava”?]. I think the women got the lines when they boarded the plane. And in the four hours from California to here, they had to learn them. And then, I decided I was not going to act. I was too shy. I wasn’t going to do nothing anymore, no acting for me. But then, I got so excited about it that I told Feliz, “Okay. I can be in the play, but I won’t say nothing. Don’t give me any lines.” So, I was in the -- I think one of the skits that we were driving this car and we’re looking -- we’re being shown how gentrified Lincoln Park was. And they were telling us what it used to be and how many Puerto Ricans lived in there and how they were pushed [01:26:00] into Humboldt Park and so forth. And so, I was in (inaudible). (laughter) And then, of course, we got Omar to do the husband of Inda. And he -- JJ: And you had Angie. LG: And Angie too. And then, we -- JJ: And you had the (inaudible) was in. 45 �LG: Yeah, [Obed?] también and then, we -- JJ: And the kids. LG: And then we got two women from Palm Springs or (inaudible). They had never done anything. And then, one was just going through the sign. And then, we had two little kids because they were part of -- they were in the woods and were trying to learn the history and so forth. It was really fun. It was really nice and -- JJ: You were just trying to get some groups back together. LG: Yeah. JJ: So, it was real grassroots because everyone was just trying to get back together. LG: And it was really good because -- JJ: We actually had two more camps after that. LG: Oh really? JJ: That were (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) yeah. LG: That’s great. [01:27:00] [“Dalichon?”] was great. (laughs) JJ: (inaudible) We got it from the Amish too. LG: Oh really? JJ: So, it wasn’t greatly expected. We went and got a real live pig and they killed it, you know, typical Puerto Rican -- Latino style, whatever. LG: Latino style, yeah. You know what was really important for me was to listen to the testimonials because I knew they were being taped. But to listen to your story, to Omar, to [Ben?], some of the women that were there and even Felicitas got up. And it was really good the way it was done because it wasn’t you talking about it but it was someone else. 46 �JJ: They took over the mic. They took over the mic. They wanted it so bad that they took over the mic. It lasted about five hours. LG: Oh my gosh. It was all day. But it was great. It was really great. It was [01:28:00] a good experience. JJ: Our 40th anniversary was the same way. They take over the mic and (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). LG: Well, we went -- for some reason, you were in town, or did you come for that, Felicitas? FN: What’s that? JJ: The 40th anniversary. LG: Over at [The Paul?]? JJ: No, no -- yeah, that’s where -- FN: Yes, yeah. They were really crowded (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JJ: That’s where [Cindy?] had her famous -- (laughs) LG: Oh, at the church. FN: At the church. Yeah, in the church. JJ: In the church. You remember that, right? FN: Yeah. LG: Yes, I remember that. Pobrecito [Chacho?]. (laughter) JJ: What happened? What happened? LG: (Spanish) [01:28:34] revolutionary love. (laughs) JJ: What did Felicitas do? She definitely got me by surprise. 47 �LG: Really? Oh, you don’t want me to say it again what she said? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JJ: Well, you don’t have to say that but if you could describe what happened. What do you remember? LG: What I remember from -- well, one of the things -- JJ: Because actually did you speak after that? You were singing. FN: Yeah. [01:29:00] She did. JJ: Yeah, because you were good. You were singing. FN: (inaudible). LG: (Spanish) [01:29:03] JJ: Yeah, but you spoke very serious. LG: Oh, I didn’t talk about my -- JJ: And the other person -- I don’t know who the other was. He was laughing at me. But it’s alright. FN: Oh, [Liz Manuelas?]. (Spanish) [01:29:15] JJ: Oh, that’s right. Yeah. And Liz stood next to Felicitas and was laughing at me, (laughter) enjoying the whole scene. But you came afterwards and was serious. It was good. LG: Well, I had to after half and hour of “Ese Amor.” (laughter) But I think it was really good. JJ: Well, that happened? What happened? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LG: I think that was the first I had met in person. JJ: I’m still trying to organize the darn thing. 48 �LG: I love [Edith Morales?]. JJ: I said, “What did she just say?” LG: I know. It was a pleasure and an honor meeting Edith Morales. And thanks to you, the Chicanas made contact with her. And when we go to New York, we try to see her every time. We were just there this year. Earlier this year she got an [01:30:00] award and we went to be part of the celebration. JJ: Oh, okay, good. LG: You know what I learned from what she said? It’s like you meet someone and you (Spanish) [01:30:19]. JJ: Did I say that in there? LG: No, no, no. FN: Another time. LG: (Spanish) [01:30:36]. But anyway, no, no, you didn’t say anything. You couldn’t even talk. (laughs) After that, you -- but what I learned is that things happen. We fall in love. But some of us are of a different mold (Spanish) [01:30:54] that, yes, love is [01:31:00] important but also our vision of what we want, of the world we want is stronger or if not as strong as that. And so, we fail at certain things, but we keep on going. Because it would have been easy. Felicitas was -- what -21? I mean, you’re not old at all. She was a young girl. She could have just gotten mad and left. And had she left, she would have missed all that experience of meeting all of you guys, of working with you, of doing the murals, of meeting other people and then being able to bring it to San Diego to us, the Chicanas. So, in a way, it’s like yeah, (Spanish) [01:31:44] life continues and your vision and 49 �your mission -- you continue in that path. (Spanish) [01:31:53] That’s what I learned [01:32:00] from what you said. JJ: You enjoyed it (inaudible). LG: Oh my gosh. I didn’t know she was going to do it. I didn’t know she was going to do it. I was shocked, surprised. JJ: But my mind is -- I got this (inaudible) all these people are taking over. What am I going to do? LG: (Spanish) [01:32:18] (laughter) It wasn’t just like -- JJ: And I wanted her to speak because a respect for the work that she did. I mean, and of putting together -- I mean, he helped to unite the movement or Puertorriqueno Chicanos. So, that was important. LG: I remember -- JJ: And it’s -- my part of the responsibility is head of the group. I get attacked every day. I mean, I have to maintain the group unity all the time. LG: Well, I think you do very well. JJ: I have to [01:33:00] erase -- get away from the personal sometimes. LG: The other thing we came -- but (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). Yeah, (Spanish) [01:33:06] -- remember they were doing something about the murals. They had taken pictures or something at DePaul? JJ: Right, right. LG: That was the other time we went. We were there. JJ: Yeah. You went to the DePaul. LG: I went to the DePaul. 50 �JJ: At the 40th anniversary. That was the -- LG: Yeah. JJ: Because we had two rallies. We had one at DePaul and then we wanted to have another one in the community. LG: Okay, so we went to both. JJ: So, you went to both. LG: Yes. But the one at DePaul -- (Spanish) [01:33:34]. JJ: Right, (Spanish) [01:33:40]. Well, the other thing -- we had a lot of people too because it was a bigger space, more (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). LG: Oh, yes, yes. (Spanish) [01:33:46] JJ: And the more community (inaudible) LG: (Spanish) [01:33:50] (laughter) JJ: People didn’t bring it up. [01:34:00] LG: But it was good. It was good. So, I really thank Felicitas for bringing -- for putting me in touch with you and through you the Young Lords and whatever. It’s been a very valuable -- JJ: I appreciate the Teatro and what they did for us. I mean, they helped us each time. So, I appreciate that. You’re hoping it’s enough. What else? What’s your final thoughts? LG: Right now? JJ: Yeah. LG: I was saying cut. (laughter) (Spanish) [01:34:31] -- now I’m going to speak Spanish, but no, I’m going to say it in English. I think our lives -- I was telling 51 �Feliz, we must be getting old, very old because a couple of people want us to -you know, videotape us through what experiences (inaudible) or whatever. But it’s good to at this age and to have lived through the things I have lived through. [01:35:00] The Chicano movement was certainly an eye opener. The peace movement, the women’s movement -- and to have continued working towards a better society, a better world, a better human-ness that we need -- I think that’s so important. I have friends from back then that say -- that have told me, “Don’t you get tired? Why don’t you give up? Things are never going to change.” And I think I have to say that Chicanas don’t give up. (laughs) If anything that you have to learn from us is that the Chicanas don’t give up and the people from the movement -- that if you really, really, really believe in what you fought back when you were young, those ideals are like -- they continue. They make you go through a certain path. [01:36:00] And I have never, never, never regretted the path that I have taken of seeing something that’s wrong and wanting to make it right. I’ve been happy. I’ve found my husband in the movement. I’ve been married 40 years. I have two kids, or two young men. And I try to instill in them the same passion that I have for humanity. JJ: What’s your other son’s name? LG: My sons -- well, the oldest one is [Emilio Nicholas?] and the younger one is [Adrian Cortez?]. And they’re both in the movement in their own way, not the way I did it, but the way they did it. My oldest son designs the Tribuno. He’s a professional designer. I don’t pay him anything. But this is the paper that we publish every two months. And he designs. [01:37:00] And then, my younger son 52 �takes pictures, and I always use his pictures. And then, (Spanish) [01:37:08] that I can find that can proof it in English because my English is not that good, then I get my husband to do it. (laughter) I get Jose and he starts proofing the English. So, it’s a family effort. But I do -- am involved in my sons and everything. It's for them to know that there is something else besides material things. (Spanish) [01:37:36] and that our -- it’s a privilege to be part of change. And I think we owe our responsibility to this present -- for my generation, this present generation, and the future generation to leave a better world for them and not to leave it in the hands [01:38:00] of the wealthy, the capitalists, the corporations that we know which direction they’re taking. I mean, (Spanish) [01:38:09] money, money, money (Spanish) [01:38:10] the schools are being closed, the -- everything that we gained back in the ’70s, our rights, are being taken away. I mean, I was talking to Felicitas last night. I mean, I am astonished of what this guy, you know, the Republican said about the -- well, it’s -- what is it? If you get pregnant after a rape, then it’s not a real rape. I mean, this is the 21st century and someone has those thoughts and that mentality in relation to women and stuff like that. So, we cannot go back to where we were before the ’70s and before the ’60s. We’ve got to go forward. And that kind of mentality in this world [01:39:00] is not -- it cannot be accepted but neither can it be accepted that you spend more money -- that you don’t want to spend money on healthcare, that you don’t want -- for everyone. A person is sick and needs healthcare -- homelessness is growing in this country when there are so many empty homes. And what do they do with the homes? It’s cheaper to -- the banks can’t sell them, so it’s cheaper to destroy 53 �them. So, there has to be a better society where we really put human needs first and stop doing what they’re doing. One last thing. I support for this presidential elections -- I support the Green Party’s candidate, Jill Stein. And in one of the interviews that she did, she said [01:40:00] -- they asked, “Well, what if you don’t win this election?” And she says, “But you have to begin in order to win. You have to start.” And I really agree with her. We’re so used to choosing the lesser of two evils because we’re going to lose. But if we don’t lose -- if we don’t get a Republican -- I mean, a Democrat, then we’re going to have a Republican. But they both represent the same capitalist interests, the rich and the wealthy. They’re not representing any of us. I don’t care if Obama is Black. I think we’ve got to look beyond color and beyond gender. We’ve got to look at -- like what we did in Harold Washington’s campaign -- what is the program and then holding them responsible to do it. But I fear for the youth. I work as an interpreter. I go to the Cook County jail. We have about [01:41:00] 11,000 inmates. They’re young. They’re like -- the majority are 17 to 25. The women’s population is growing. I can’t -- then there’s no jobs. And the say, “Okay, well high school diploma is not good enough.” But maybe college -- go to college. But you go to college. It’s not enough. Something is wrong. I think we need to take responsibility and really fight to change it. So, that’s all I want to say. JJ: I appreciate that. Thank you very much. 54 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e9a150b5c2035ccf0ef72296a93f1186.mp4 817012c74525812bb41a6dbfc5c6c937 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Larua Garcia vídeo entresvista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Garcia_Laura Title A name given to the resource Laura Garcia video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Garcia, Laura Description An account of the resource Laura Garcia was raised in an immigrant farmworker family. She was a member of MECha, the Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán, in the struggle to build the United Farmworkers Union, and joined the Teatro de las Chicanas, a theatre troupe started by Felicitas Nuñez and Delia Ravelo, in the 1970s. She recently co-edited, with Sandra M. Gutierrez and Ms. Nuñez a collection of memoirs by members of Teatro Chicanas called Teatro Chicana (2008). Their most recent play is “Madres por Justicia,” which was first performed at the MALCS Conference in Los Angeles, August 2011. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-08-25 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e87275e168bfd60ea900edbe367447af.pdf 9b5802dddc4798eaefb9be298b3c4f9f PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Carmen Garcia Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 11/16/2012 Runtime: 02:07:23 Biography and Description Oral history of Carmen Garcia, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on November 16, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b5bdfe2b6addf5fb9d2fc92d3aa98794.mp4 a9403062059ac2345b1158bcae31a1a6 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Carmen Garcia vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Carmen Garcia, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 11/16/2012 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Garcia_Carmen Title A name given to the resource Carmen Garcia video interview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Garcia, Carmen Description An account of the resource Oral history of Carmen Garcia, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 11/16/2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-11-16 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9f1362d71c184266b9c59952baded68b.pdf 5d1434f15e7fbbfc7248237a10e4029e PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Hilda E. Frontany Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/30/2012 Biography and Description Hilda Frontany is a long-time community activist whose family first lived in the Water Hotel in Chicago’s La Clark neighborhood when they arrived in Chicago from Puerto Rico. In the late 1960s and 1970s she devoted her work to addressing the housing crisis that was displacing Latinos and the poor from Chicago’s Lakeview Neighborhood, a community located just north of Lincoln Park. To Puerto Ricans living in the area at that time, the neighborhood boundaries made no difference; to them, this was the same Puerto Rican barrio where families were being evicted by a 50-year master plan carried out by city hall. As a member of the Lakeview Citizens Council, Ms. Frontany argued and fought within the organization, using Saul Alinsky’s strategies to ensure that Latino voices were being heard, and ultimately forming the Lakeview Latin American Citizens Council. Ms. Frontany’s work with the Council was many-fold. In addition to providing a public voice for Latinos and helping to support homeowners who targeted by building inspectors, the Council ran a food pantry and taught G.E.D. and E.S.L. (English as a Second Language) classes. Today, she attends services at the San Lucas United Church of Christ and remains a prominent leader within Chicago’s Puerto Rican community. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: So, go ahead and start [with your name?] HILDA FRONTANY: Okay. My name is Hilda Frontany. I was born June 16, 1943 in Arecibo, Puerto Rico. My father was born in San Sebastián, [Los Pepinos?]. My mom was born in Arecibo, Barrio Esperanza. JJ: What do you mean Los Pepinos? What is that? HF: That’s a little town up in the mountains. My mother was born in Esperanza. For a description of where that is in Puerto Rico, that’s where Cornell University built the world’s largest radar unit. Arecibo, Puerto Rico. I came to the United States around 1953, I believe. I was around 10 years old. It was myself and three younger brothers. My father had come earlier, and [00:01:00] he worked in the butcher yards, and then he sent for us. We settled around the area of -- JJ: You said butcher yards. Where was that? HF: That was the butcher yards on 47th and Ashland, where they used to do all the hog butchering, et cetera, yeah. The yards. JJ: So, he was working there [what time of the year?]? HF: That must have been in the ’50s or so. Yeah, ’cause we came in ’53. Yeah. JJ: Can you tell me his name and --? HF: My father’s name was [Leonor Diaz Roman?]. My mother was [Blanca López Ruiz?]. My mother was the person that was like the person that kind of got me involved in seeing community, working in community, but, back then, it was through the church. Where [00:02:00] we settled was around the area -- 1 �JJ: Wait, so, you said she was involved with the church. Now, what church and where? HF: We settled around Erie, LaSalle, Chicago and state area, and the church that was there was Holy Name Cathedral, the mother of all Roman Catholic churches back then. And so -- JJ: So, your mother was active in (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HF: My mother was very active there. The group that was there, they started out with the Caballeros de San Juan, [my dad?], which was the Knights of St. John, which -- later on, they formed many councils throughout Chicago, and they created a credit union for all their members. My mother was very involved in terms of making certain that we had a Spanish Mass, and ministering to the people in the community who were newcomers, and getting [00:03:00] the church involved in assisting them. JJ: So, were there a lot of Spanish-speaking people in that area? HF: There were quite a few Spanish-speaking people. JJ: And this is in ’53. HF: This is in 1953. That Italian community there didn’t want us there, but we survived it. JJ: In what ways did they not want you there? I mean, why do you say that? HF: Because, when my father used to go to the [Keyman’s Club?] and all of that with other Puerto Ricans, they would ask them to leave, so that was a sign that they didn’t want you there. When we were all living on Erie and LaSalle, they came after the group of men that used to live in that building, and the men had to 2 �actually go up on top of the roof with blocks of ice from Bowman Dairy Company, and they used the blocks of ice to throw down at the Italians to defend themselves. So, those were signs that we weren’t wanted in that neighborhood initially. JJ: [00:04:00] And so, because the neighborhood was [firstly?] Italian, and then it was changed over. HF: Yes, and then it was changing. Yes. We’re talking about, you know, crossing the bridge and being downtown. Yeah. JJ: At that time. Okay. Was it a housing program that changed in the community, or was it more natural at that time? HF: At that time, the community there began to change in terms of the development that began to cause our families to move further north or northwest. Many families had to move north on Clark towards Armitage, towards Halsted. Others ended up living further west, but, yeah, it was a high displacement of families through development. JJ: What were some of the boundaries, I mean, that you recall? What were some of the streets? HF: That I recall? Well, I remember that, you know -- JJ: ’Cause I believe they called it La Clark, that neighborhood. Is that correct, or am I --? HF: Now, they call it Near North. JJ: [00:05:00] Near North. (inaudible) [puertorriqueños?] 3 �HF: For the Puerto Ricans. We were -- let’s see -- north of the Chicago River, all the way up to Armitage. Then, east -- I mean west of Michigan Avenue, all the way towards Orleans. And so, many of the people that left the Catholic Church Holy Name in protest because we weren’t being given the main church for the Spanish Mass -- we were in the basement. We migrated to a church on Orleans and Division Street. JJ: I’ve heard that in other churches, like St. Michael’s [and that?]. So, was this by choice? Did the Latinos want their own space in the basement, or this -- why was this? HF: No, it was not by choice. That’s all that they were willing to give us for our Spanish Mass. And so, with my mother’s leadership and the leadership of [00:06:00] many of the other men that were involved in the Caballeros de San Juan, they moved the congregation to St. Joseph’s Church on Orleans, near Division. JJ: Okay. How old were you at that time? You were still young. HF: I was still young, but -- JJ: Do you recall (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HF: -- as that was happening, I remember my mother -- because a lot of the stuff was -- a lot of the work that was being done and a lot of the way that the families used to network and try to survive the shock of coming into Chicago from Puerto Rico, not knowing the language, was through the church at that time. And so, I remember my mother -- they formed a group for the older women called the Women of the Sacred Heart, Las Damas del Sagrado Corazón. For the younger 4 �girls like myself, we were Hijas de María, Daughters of Mary. The men had their own organization called [00:07:00] the Knights of St. John, Caballeros de San Juan. And so, it was all related to the church and to the religious practices, but, through that, there was some organizing being done in terms of the families. There was some work being done with the -- at that time, I remember that it was the Puerto Rican Mutual Aid Society that had come in, and many Puerto Ricans needed assistance with social services. So, the church groups would send them to Puerto Rican Mutual Aid Society to try to get assistance for them. JJ: And where were they located, the Puerto Rican Mutual Aid Society? HF: They were located around the area of Chicago, Ashland, Ohio. Carlos “Caribe” Ruiz later on was one of the -- JJ: Oh, [Casa Central?] -- HF: -- [movers?]. Yes. JJ: -- (inaudible) at that time. Carlos “Caribe” Ruiz. Okay. HF: Yeah. JJ: Well, Carlos “Caribe” Ruiz [00:08:00] was also on (inaudible) and North Avenue. HF: That’s correct, yeah. JJ: Okay. Okay. So, now, you’re at St. Joseph’s. Did you go to the elementary school there, or what school were you going to? HF: First, I started out at William B. Ogden School, where I did a lot of crying because I didn’t understand the language, and -- JJ: Crying? [What do you?] --? 5 �HF: Well, yes, because I didn’t know what the kids were saying to me, so I would go home crying, say, “I don’t want to go back there.” JJ: Oh, crying. Crying. Crying. HF: Crying. Actually cried. I didn’t understand the language, you know? I couldn’t keep up, and I didn’t want to be there, but, eventually, you make up your mind that you’re going to dominate the language. And so, we were taken out of William B. Ogden, and then put into Holy Name Cathedral, and that’s where I went to grade school. JJ: So, you were crying because you wanted to very bad [00:09:00] to understand -- HF: Understand what was going on, understand what was happening. JJ: [You weren’t being put down or anything?]? HF: I didn’t know what they were saying to me, so I didn’t know if they were put downs or being invited to join in the play groups or whatever. JJ: But you were in the first and second grade or -- HF: Yes. JJ: -- something like that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HF: Right. Yes. JJ: And you said you were living on Erie? HF: We were living on Erie Street, yes. JJ: Okay. By LaSalle? HF: Erie near LaSalle. Yes. Yes. And then, we moved to Superior and State, and then we lived on Ontario and State. So, we were kind of in the same circle. JJ: (inaudible). What was the housing stock at that time? What --? 6 �HF: It was all rental units. A building with maybe 20 units, the first one that we moved into. The second one, it was about -- two, four -- six or eight units. So, it was that kind of rental property. JJ: Okay. Because some people, they lived in, like, hotels [00:10:00] and (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HF: Well, yes. There were a couple of -- what we now call the transient motels, uhhuh, that -- like the Wacker Hotel. A lot of young, single, Puerto Rican males lived at the Wacker Hotel. Yeah. JJ: Okay. Did your family just come by itself, or were there other relatives near you? HF: First, my father came with a couple of his nephews, and then we came, and then, after that, it seemed that more family came over. And then, my father, who was in Puerto Rico, he used to be a barber, and he also used to work in the sugar cane crops. When he came over here, I remember he would serve like the cook for a group of men that would come in the evenings and pick up their fiambreras or their containers full of food, [00:11:00] and he also would cut their hair. So, you know, that was the type of situation that we had. JJ: So, he was self-employed (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HF: Self-employment too. JJ: But this was in his apartment -- HF: This was in our apartment, yes. Yes. JJ: -- that he would cut hair. HF: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: Okay. Where did some of the other people work at that time? 7 �HF: They were at -- I think it was called the Holloway Candy Company that they worked at. Some other people worked at some of the factories where they made those plastic gloves. JJ: Were there factories nearby? HF: There were some factories nearby, yeah. There was the Continental Coffee Company that was there on LaSalle. Right next to it, practically, was the Bowman Dairy Company, so they were employed there. So, the glove-making company ’cause my mom worked at it for a while -- but a lot of them were working in the [00:12:00] hotels that were in the nearby area. Like, south on Michigan and on State, et cetera. Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. Some of the hotels were -- like the Palmer House, was that one? HF: Palmer House. I can’t remember the one my uncle worked at, but hotels primarily, yeah. JJ: Okay. So, now, you’re at St. Joseph. Were you attending school there? HF: No. I was still attending school. St. Joseph became the place to go to church on Sundays and do some activities with the groups that we had formed, but I was still attending Holy Name Cathedral, the school. JJ: So, [there was no longer?] Spanish Mass at Holy Name Cathedral? HF: No. No. JJ: So, now, it’s at St. Joseph’s. HF: At St. Joseph’s. JJ: So, the whole Mass moved (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HF: Practically the whole Mass moved with the community, yeah. 8 �JJ: So, the community was moved at that time, basically. HF: Yes. JJ: And do you recall anything regarding the Masses at St. Joseph, or -- I mean, were there a lot of people attending, or --? HF: There was [00:13:00] a lot of people attending, and I think the attract-- JJ: A hundred, two hundred? HF: I couldn’t tell you numbers, but I do know that we were -- you know, it was a smaller church, full to capacity, and there was a lot of celebrating happening. As you know, Puerto Ricans, we’re all very celebratory in terms of -- El Día de Los Reyes, we throw a party for the children, the Three Kings Day. We would throw parties using the facility at the church to bring families together in celebration, and that’s what I remember. Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. So, where was Mass celebrated there? HF: On the main floor. JJ: So, there was more -- HF: In the main church. JJ: -- sensitivity there. HF: Yes, in the main church. JJ: At St. Joseph’s. HF: Yeah. JJ: Okay. Were there any priests at all that you recall that were instrumental at that time? 9 �HF: Back in those days, [00:14:00] I vividly remember a priest, Father [Jordan?]. He was one of the Spanish-speaking priests that did touch members of the community. JJ: At St. Joseph’s? HF: St. Joseph and even at other churches. JJ: (inaudible). HF: That’s the only name of priests that stand out for me. Yeah. Yeah. JJ: [Father Jordan, okay?]. Okay. HF: Yeah. JJ: So, how long did you -- and where did you live when you were going to St. Joseph’s? Were you still living --? HF: We were still living around the area of Ontario, State -- yes. Yes. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). And so, from there, where did you go? HF: After we left that area, I went to live in Lake View community. JJ: Okay, so you went straight [to Lake View?]. HF: I went straight into Lake View on 2835 North Clark, [00:15:00] which is the area bounded by Clark, Broadway, Diversey, a very close walk to the lake and to the park. JJ: [That’s the?] dividing line between Lincoln Park and [Lake View?]. HF: Yes. Yes. The dividing line was Diversey, so -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HF: -- if I went south of Diversey, I would be in Lincoln Park. 10 �JJ: But, at that time, for the Puerto Ricans, it was just one community, would you say, or no? [Or it was pockets?]? HF: There were pockets, but the majority of us were in the area bounded by Halsted and Racine. Mm-hmm. That’s why Lake View had one study that was done. It was called the layer cake community. You remember? Where they said that the majority of the Jewish community was living between Lake Shore Drive and Broadway, and then from Broadway onto Halsted were the four plus one units that had been newly built. And then, from [00:16:00] Halsted to Racine was what they called the poverty belt. Well, we were in that poverty belt. And then, from Racine on was the older German Americans that had been kind of hanging onto their properties. JJ: Okay. So, west of Racine. HF: Right. JJ: That’s where you were. HF: Right. JJ: So, now, you’re talking between Halsted and Racine, but what about the southern boundary? Where did that begin? HF: Mostly Diversey, and then we would go -- JJ: This is for Lake View. HF: For us, yes. Our boundaries. Up to Irving Park because many of the programs that were going on and all of that, it included those boundaries, Diversey up to Irving Park. 11 �JJ: Okay. What do you call growing up in that area? What percentage of the population was Puerto Rican in that area? [Section?]? HF: It was primarily Puerto Rican in that area, and I think it was also due to the fact that, in that [00:17:00] area, there was an agreement by US Department of Agriculture when they first brought in the first 300 Puerto Ricans to do domestic work. That’s where they mostly settled. JJ: Well, can you explain that agreement? I’m not familiar with [that?]. HF: The US Department of Labor and US Department of Agriculture used to go into Puerto Rico to recruit labor. JJ: Around what years? HF: ’50s, ’60s. Around those times. And so, in history, there were 300 primarily women that were brought into the Lakeview area, and -- JJ: Now, you’re talking about a government agency, right? HF: Yes, I’m talking about a government agency. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HF: And they were brought into the Lake View community, and they came in to do a lot of domestic labor, and with that group came Carlos “Caribe” Ruiz. Yes. And so, Carlos “Caribe” Ruiz, back in those days in order to supply the typical Puerto Rican foods [00:18:00] to people and all of that, he would drive all the way to New York, and that’s when he then started El Congreso Puertorriqueño, the Puerto Rican Congress, and he was a big-time in terms of making sure that youth who wanted to be in the field of music, that he could set them up in the field of music, but the rule was, “You must do well in school.” And so, he began 12 �something that many other church groups or organizations that were just beginning to pop up weren’t doing. JJ: And this was the Puerto Rican Congress. At that time, [was?] created on Larrabee -- HF: Yes. JJ: -- and North Avenue? HF: Right. Right. JJ: And so, there were a lot of bands that he (inaudible)? HF: Oh, he created quite a few. I mean, quite a few bands, yeah. Quite a few bands. JJ: Do you recall any of their names, or --? HF: The Fania All-Stars is the only one that comes to mind. He created an allwomen’s group, but I can’t remember the name of [00:19:00] it now. But, mostly, he was based around the area of Clement-- where Clemente High School is right now, and concentrated there. Yeah. JJ: Okay. (inaudible). HF: Yeah. JJ: So, you’re growing up in Lake View. How old were you at that time? HF: Oh, my goodness. By now, I married, and I started, then, getting involved in, again, organizing through the small groups in the church. I joined up with St. Sebastian Church, and, at St. Sebastian Church, that’s where I met a priest that became a very heavy community organizer himself. JJ: Do you recall his name? 13 �HF: Yes. Father Charlie Kyle. We used to call him [Carlitos?]. And [00:20:00] that’s where I also met [Reverendo Fineas Flores?] from the United Methodist Church. JJ: Charlie Kyle -- is he married now? (inaudible) -- HF: Charlie Kyle left the priesthood -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HF: -- and he married a young woman by the name of Diana Eiranova, who used to be a journalist. JJ: Okay, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HF: And, if you remember, Diana Eiranova, was the one that fought for the rights of the young men that had been accused of killing and molesting the young girl, and she wrote a book also. JJ: [Oh, Diana Eiranova?]. HF: Yeah. Yeah. And now, Charlie Kyle is a principal at Stowe School, I believe it is, but, if you remember, Charlie Kyle was one of the primary persons that begin the Lake View Latin American Coalition. JJ: Okay, now, if you could then explain that (inaudible). HF: Okay. Charlie Kyle, being a member of the St. Sebastian [00:21:00] Church clergy, started working in the community with Reverend Fineas Flores from the United Methodist Church and other individuals. There were four small groups created. There was a group based out of St. Sebastian Church of Latinos. There was another one based around the elementary school that was on Broadway near Belmont. So, there was four small groups, and each one had their own name, and each one was trying to tackle a different issue or concern. 14 �And so, Father Charlie Kyle and a couple of others said, “You know, we should band together. We should create a coalition.” And out of that was created the Lake View Latin American Coalition because he believed that there was more power -JJ: What year was this? HF: This was around ’69, ’70. Around that time. [00:22:00] And so, one of the groups that was based around St. Sebastian, they were fighting for the bilingual education program at the elementary school near there. (audio cuts out) remember the name right now, but the other group was fighting for bilingual education rights at another school. JJ: In Lake View? HF: In Lake View. Another small group was fighting because the landlords, you know, were either criminal housing mismanagement landlords, slumlords, absentee landlords. And so, they were trying to educate the tenants about their rights. And so, we said, “Wait. Let’s put it all together,” and Charlie was one of the main individuals in creating the Lake View Latin American Coalition. JJ: Now, did he come out of the Caballeros? Was there a chapter of the Caballeros, a branch, or --? HF: No. It didn’t come out of the Caballeros de San Juan. No. JJ: But it came out of the [00:23:00] Spanish Masses? HF: It came out of the Spanish Masses and groupings that were in that area. If you also remember, Charlie Kyle, former priest -- there was a doctor, Isidro Lucas. Dr. Isidro Lucas went and did a study on Puerto Rican dropouts, and no one paid 15 �attention to it, and Charlie Kyle said, “Let me take over that study.” And Charlie Kyle, almost the same exact study, but his name to it and released it, and it became the main issue for the board of education and for everybody else. Okay? So, he made a point. He proved a point, and he helped us to move that agenda forward, about looking at, you know, the dropout rates in the Puerto Rican community and what were the solutions. That’s the Charlie Kyle that I [00:24:00] know. JJ: And you said he helped us. What was your role by that time? HF: I was a member of the group that was formed at St. Sebastian. Myself and about seven others. Small groups. [Gloria Pérez?], [Sally?]. So, I was part of the St. Sebastian group. And then, eventually, when the Lake View Latin American Coalition was formed and we were able to get our first few dollars from the Campaign for Human Development and from other sources, then I became the organizer for the organization. JJ: For the organization itself? HF: Yeah. JJ: I remember that. You mentioned some of the issues with housing in that -- HF: Right. JJ: When you became the organizer, [what happened there?]? HF: Well, one of the main things that we did was we made certain that we [00:25:00] did work with the tenants that were being so abused in that area there. Some of the people that bought entire blocks, like [Phil Farley?] and [Don Smith?] -- at that time, it was like live on a street or be your own kind of concept. Elaine 16 �Place, where they bought all the way from Cornelia to another point -- let’s say 18 buildings -- again, it was like gated little communities live on a street of your own. And so, all these families were being displaced, and I remember that, at Elaine Place, what we tried to do was try to get a -JJ: Is Elaine Place still there, or --? HF: Elaine Place is still there. JJ: Where is that located? HF: It’s on [00:26:00] Elaine Street, which is one block east of Halsted Street, and Cornelia, south about three blocks of that. Uh-huh. Where we started organizing those families to let them know what their rights were in terms of the process for them to leave. If these people were going to gut out, and we have all of those buildings, then they needed to know that you need to be given so much notice, and we had worked out a promise with Senator Simon and the Federal Department of Housing that some of the could return to 10 percent subsidized housing once Elaine Place was finished. So, community organizers and people to make sure the trucks didn’t come in there overnight to start gutting. What they did was they planted people in [00:27:00] some of the buildings, like [Ralph Volun?], I remember, so that we would show a presence still with tenants, and they blocked the trucks while we got enough time to be able to speak with the powers that be to mobilize other things on behalf of the tenants. With Phil Farley and Don Smith, that was the area around Belmont, Barry, Wellington, to George Street, from Halsted on, and, again, they were gutting out building after building after building where all the families lived, and the prices for rent became so 17 �exorbitant, the families just couldn’t afford to return. But many of the buildings that they had bought, they weren’t going to gut out, they were gonna keep as they were, and I remember [00:28:00] that we would organize, not -- we wouldn’t call it a protest. We didn’t call it a march because we were organizing members of the church, so we would call it a procession. So, we had this procession from building to building with guitars and candles lit, singing the hymns, and, as we got to a building where we knew that the electric cords were exposed, the water wasn’t running properly, et cetera, then, we would say prayer for the owner of that building, and the tenants would join us, and then we would go to the next building. And then, at the end, we would end up in the basement of St. Sebastian Church, meeting with the landlords. Okay? One of the things that I remember that our group was good at was -- that, before these landlords or anybody, while we were doing the procession, [00:29:00] could call police, we would call police on ourselves ’cause we had built a good relationship with the 14th District by then. JJ: So, these were skills that you had learned from where? Were you trained in organizing, or --? HF: Charlie Kyle, the priest, again, insisted that the main organizing group, as many of us that could, that we would go to the Saul Alinsky Institute. Back then, it was the Industrial Areas Foundation. So, I was one of the privileged ones that went there. JJ: And what were some of the techniques that you learned there with organizing? 18 �HF: Well, there are some tactics that you just can’t use in every community because it depends on the culture of the person. Especially if you’re doing organizing with older people in a Catholic church, there’s things you don’t ask them to [00:30:00] do, but there are things that you can say, like, when we invited them to a procession, it was very natural, but, in fact, it was a protest. Mm-hmm. JJ: Now, you were saying you had a procession versus a protest and that you were looking this way, but were there -- the Young Lords were also doing some things at that time, and [apparently?] you were not in agreement, or -- their tactics, or -- HF: No, because the Young Lords -- I mean, as I remember, from the history that came from New York, the tactics that were being used or the strategies, et cetera, they were fitting for the group that you were working with. Okay? But, if I am trying to get a group of 50 plus-year-olds, newcomers to the church, to be involved in picketing a landlord, and I say to them, “[Vente?], let’s picket this landlord,” they’re not [00:31:00] gonna join me, but, if I say, “Come and join me because we’re gonna pray for a landlord that is keeping our people in conditions that are unbearable in that building and charging them high rent, and, eventually, they’re going to oust them because they’re going to gut that building out,” they will join. JJ: I was referring more like the takeover of McCormick Seminary, [and the church?], and all that. How did you feel about that? HF: Well, at that time, it was like, “Hooray,” and, as you remember, it was many of our own families that used to go to bring the food to where they Young Lords were at. 19 �JJ: To the McCormick and -- HF: To the McCormick Seminary, right at DePaul University on Fullerton and Halsted, where, Fullerton, Halsted, and -- what’s that other street that meet there? JJ: Lincoln. HF: Lincoln Avenue. That’s correct. JJ: So, you were bringing food, but -- so, you were supporting them, the takeover, in a way. HF: That’s correct. [00:32:00] And then, when -- JJ: You didn’t see it as a terror attack or -- HF: I didn’t see it as a terror attack. My family didn’t see it as a terror attack because we were also doing the same thing in Lake View too, you know? But in a different way to get the involvement of people. We were trying to stop the heavy development that was taking place. We wanted our people to live in decent conditions, but we didn’t like the way that they were being ousted. Okay? JJ: Now, you mentioned New York, the tactics of New York. Are you familiar that the Young Lords originated in Chicago and then spread to other cities [around?]? Or you thought that they had come from New York? HF: At that time, we thought that the Young Lords had come from New York. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. JJ: They actually originated [in Chicago?]. HF: In Chicago. Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. So, your -- [00:33:00] Reverend Kyle, did they call him, or --? HF: Charlie Kyle. 20 �JJ: Charlie Kyle. And you have a Latin American citizens council (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HF: The Lake View community had a Lake View Citizens’ Council, and we formed our own Lake View Latin American Coalition because we already had those four groups. JJ: (inaudible). HF: And that issues that we were dealing with weren’t issues that were of particular interest to the Lake View Citizens’ Council. I mean, we were talking about the bilingual education programs and how they were being run in those schools. We were talking about landlords that expose people to criminal acts, as we called them back then. Okay? We were talking about the police brutality that existed back then. Okay? And [00:34:00] so, we wanted to bring solutions to some of those. Okay? We were talking about the high unemployment of Latinos. Okay? So, in terms of the Lake View Latin American Coalition, one of the things that we did was we created quite a few babies of our own, like, to take care of the issue of unemployment. Then, we created an organization or a service, a program, called Una Puerta Abierta, the Open Door, and the Open Door was based on Broadway, and that Open Door, with a few staff members and lots of volunteers, were supposed to look for employment opportunities for the Latino community. Once they started to work with them, then they find out, “Wait a minute. Many of the people that we’re referring to these jobs, because they don’t [00:35:00] speak English, they’re refusing to give them the job because of -- they don’t even know safety English.” And so, then, we’re like, “Okay. So, what do we do now?” We 21 �couldn’t teach one by one, so the Lake View Latin American Coalition, one of the committees, they came up with the idea of, “Let’s do something that would be like English as a survival language.” Okay? And so, we created what now is known as Universidad Popular. Now, we started out -JJ: Is it still in existence? HF: It is still in existence and growing. It’s going to be celebrating its fortieth year April 14. JJ: In Lake View (inaudible)? HF: No. They’ve moved now to 2801 South on Hamlin. So, we created Universidad Popular, and people would question, “Well, why are you calling it a [00:36:00] university, a popular university, when you’ve got a basement with one teacher and fourteen students?” You had to create a type of a mentality that, you know, we’re all good enough to be at that university level if we work -- and, again, that was because Charlie Kyle and the members of the coalition made certain that individuals that were just coming into leadership position met great people like Paulo Freire, read the books of Paulo Freire. Okay? And had discussion groups about -- you know, it’s all about raising a conscience here. And so, we were great to have church people involved because they were the ones that told us all about the theologies of the Americas, where they were using that to liberate people, people’s [00:37:00] minds. Mm-hmm. JJ: So, there was like an international scope in thinking -- HF: Yes. JJ: -- at that time. 22 �HF: It began to [build up?] because -- JJ: Were local communities looking international also, or --? HF: Well, no. First, there [was not?] -- a local community coming to the realization that, “Okay, we’re here in Lake View, but there’s a lot of things happening outside of Lake View that impact what happens here. And so, we need to look outside of Lake View too and develop partnerships.” And so, that’s where the Puerto Rican Organization for Political Action -- we developed the partnership with the Puerto Rican Organization for Political Action. JJ: PROPA. HF: PROPA, which was headed by Hector Franco back then. And we realized, wait a minute. Puerto Ricans are citizens by birth. Maybe not by choice, but by birth, and, when we go to vote, even though we come here as citizens and [00:38:00] don’t know English, we’re forced to take the oath in English. So, that was enough to go into the courtroom. And so, you know, we went into the courtrooms, and we sued, and Judge Philip Tone, I believe it was, he ruled in our favor, and, after that, it wasn’t just Puerto Ricans that benefited from taking the oath in Spanish and having election materials in Spanish. Many others, okay? Who were not Puerto Rican benefited from that lawsuit. The newspapers, Spanish newspapers, benefited from that because the lawsuit said that the board of elections had to print announcements in Spanish in those newspapers. Okay? And, today, we look back, and, lo and behold, the ballot is printed in many other languages, and that was because of our [00:39:00] organizing. 23 �JJ: Okay. So, you made a coalition of the different groups (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HF: Right, like unemployment. Unemployment. When the Una Puerta Abierta was working with that, we worked very closely with other groups that were working with employment. And so, what we were doing, actually, was creating special interest groups across the city. I remember that one of the groups that we joined with was Zeferino Ochoa and the Cardinal’s Committee that he used to work at, and he had a radio program, and that was very beneficial ’cause we could get news out through that. JJ: So, you worked -- okay, with Zeferino Ochoa. [I recall?] hearing that name and the Cardinal’s Committee. What did they do (inaudible)? HF: They used to serve [00:40:00] the Latino community in terms of providing information on services that was available to churches or whatever, discussion of issues on his radio program and all of that. So, that’s how I remember Zeferino. Okay? JJ: So, you continued the -- HF: Yeah. JJ: -- Latin American Coalition continued to work with the -- HF: Well, whenever we -- JJ: -- churches? HF: Yes, if there was a church group that was working on a particular issue of employment. We were just looking at -- it wasn’t necessarily that we would seek out a church group, but we knew that group was working on the issue we were 24 �interested in. Like, when we wanted to open doors at [Jewel?] Food Stores, as an example, it was a coalition of about 17 groups, including PROPA, ABC, remember? Allies for a Better Community, headed up by Sally Johnson. [Carlos Castro’s?] [00:41:00] group, which used to be [PRUF?], Puerto Rican United Front. Uh-huh. JJ: (inaudible). HF: There, we also had the Puerto Rican Office of Cultural Affairs back then, too, assisting to open doors at Jewel Food Stores, to open doors -- back then, it was with -- what was the company? AT&T. Okay? And so, we banded together to open those doors for employment. JJ: So, you wanted open doors in what way? You visited with these groups, or --? HF: Well, some were actual, coordinated visits. Some had to be pickets in order to get attention. Whatever it took that the groups would decide how they would mobilize. Yeah. JJ: Okay. And then, what was going on in the community then? [00:42:00] Was housing a big issue at that time? HF: Housing was a big issue, and one of the things that, at the Lake View Latin American Coalition, a small group tried it, and we did it -- I think it was 13 or 14 of us. We decided that we were going to show people that we could stabilize that community by going into the home purchasing program. And so, I was one of the ones that decided, you know, I’m going to purchase. We knew that some of the people that were being encouraged to purchase didn’t have all the money, but, if -- the way it was worked out, a couple of people would lend some money to that 25 �person. That person would buy, and, now, that person was responsible for making sure some of that money now came back for the next person to purchase. When I went in to try to purchase, the house was [00:43:00] at 929 West Wolfram. Back then, it was, like, 28,500. Because I was divorced and not remarried, I was having a terrible time, so attorneys like [Miguel Velazquez?] and [Hector Guzman?] came into the picture, because then they were gonna use that as a case of, “Hey, you can’t discriminate having a woman just because they’re divorced and not remarried. You’ve got to show proof that that person is not financially stable to keep up with the payments of that home.” So, I was able to buy, and [Mendieta?] was able to buy. [Mario de Juan?] had bought. [Ramos?] bought. Some of them even bought right in front of where Wrigley Field is, and, later on, they were able to [00:44:00] sell for quite a bit. JJ: Okay. HF: Yeah. JJ: You kind of grew up there. Lake View was your community (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? HF: Lake View was my community since 19-- oh, God. When was it? ’64 or something. Yeah. Yeah. JJ: And so, when you came there, it was changing (inaudible) changing to (inaudible) -- HF: It was beginning to change into Puerto Rican -- we had people from Mexico, and we had, north of us, some people from South and Central America, and still kind 26 �of the same situation. The Central Americans have remained north of that area. Yeah. JJ: And so, you saw it developing and then becoming more Latino. HF: And then, all of a sudden, you know, Latinos having to leave [00:45:00] because we were being displaced by the wholesale gutting out of -- JJ: But it -- HF: -- the rental properties. JJ: But you fought that. HF: We fought it. We fought it. We fought it, and we thought that we would make headways by encouraging people to purchase, but, by that time, you know, a building had changed hands three times, and they would cap out so that, if the building had been sold for 70,000, now, somebody came in, and bought it, and resells it for 130,000. By the time I come and try to get it, I’m gonna have to come up with the 200,000. So, you know, it became very hard to try to stabilize it through the purchase of the rental properties. Mm-hmm. The few that were able to purchase were purchasing single-family homes. JJ: So, do you feel your efforts were in vain, or was it a loss, or --? HF: [00:46:00] I personally don’t look at it that it was in vain ’cause there was a lot of leadership development that was going on, and that leadership migrated and took all their skills, that energy, that commitment, that dedication, into other communities to work on issues. Myself, for instance, I’ve dedicated practically my entire life to working in the Humboldt Park community, whereas I’ve always lived in Lake View, and now, I live in Portage Park. I only sleep in Portage Park. 27 �Okay? All my work is being done on behalf of the Humboldt Park community, practically. JJ: So, many people that came from there became leaders or were involved in the community (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HF: In the communities, that’s right. Yes. Yes. JJ: Okay. And so, what is some of the work that you’re doing today (inaudible) in Humboldt Park? HF: [00:47:00] In the Humboldt Park community, one of the things -- we created a group called the Puerto Rican Agenda, and the Puerto Rican Agenda is a consortium of about 40 organizations and agencies, and some of the work that has been done -- number one was we have the Institute of Puerto Rican Arts, which used to be the old [horse stadium?] inside of Humboldt Park on Division and Sacramento, 3015 West Division, and, now, it is not an Institute of Puerto Rican Arts and Culture. Now, we have museum status, and that’s because of the hard work of the Puerto Rican Agenda, making sure that they stayed on top of that. It’s been completely gutted. Lots of exhibitions going on there right now. JJ: What are some of the other groups that (inaudible)? HF: Some of the other groups that belonged there are -- like, the [00:48:00] Ruiz Belvis Cultural Center belongs to that. The Puerto Rican Cultural Center with José López belongs to that. Vida/SIDA with Juan Calderón belongs to that. The Division Street Small Business Development with Eduardo Arocho, they’re there at the table. We have some agencies like [Boca?] advertising agency at the table. [NNN?], neighborhood organizing organization under [Eliud Medina?]. We 28 �had members of Lucha, Association Houses represented. National Conference of Puerto Rican Women is at the table. Rincon Community Services is at the table. And so, it’s a whole -- Humboldt Park Social Services is at the table. JJ: [I can see it’s?] broadly based. (inaudible) -- HF: It’s a broad base, and -- JJ: -- more (inaudible), [00:49:00] [but it looks like?] (inaudible). HF: Yes, and it’s not structured. To say we have a president, that we have a vice president, that we have a secretary, we have a treasurer -- no. We have two individuals that co-chair the meetings. One of the things that we recently did was that, through the efforts of the Agenda, there was a grant that was given, and it was a grant to do a major study on the Puerto Rican community. And so, we’ve been doing the focus groups, and it’s been really a blessing to be able to do that because, when many of these agencies have to do the proposals, either for the state, or for foundations, or for the federal government, they need backup data. It’s not like in the old days, where you could say, “We need this because of that.” [00:50:00] Now, you have to show proof that the population is there and that the need is there. So, with this grant, we hope to be able to provide not only the agencies that are part of the consortium. Anyone else who wants to use the data, you know. So, I’m really proud of that. That was done by the Puerto Rican Agenda. But, you know, back to some of the stuff that we’ve done in the Lake View community, many of the small agencies that used to exist there -- it was like they couldn’t provide services because a lot of the people, as you remember in Lincoln Park and in there, the newcomers -- newcomers who couldn’t speak the 29 �language. And so, [00:51:00] the churches -- all they could offer was the Mass. Okay? So, we were forced, then, to look outside of Lake View, and, when we started looking outside of Lake View, the only things that we could find were the organizations that were being created in the West Town, Humboldt Park area. And so, those were the agencies that we tried to send our people to to get the services. Okay? Other than when we began forming our own babies, like Universidad Popular, like Una Puerta Abierta, like Servicios de Orientación that we created also in Lake View. All right? Once the families arrived and they [were going through?] the cultural shock, and people would say, “Oh, tan loco, tan loco,” you know, it wasn’t that they were crazy. They were suffering the depression from separation. [00:52:00] If it was a man that came alone and left the family, and now, he’s making low wages and can’t keep the promise that he made to bring the wife and children right away -- and so, we needed to find a way to get those individuals to come in, but you couldn’t bring them in if you were calling it “Lake View Mental Health Services.” All right? So, what we did was work with people like [Emperatriz Pumarejo?], [Gustavo Espinosa?], and others, and we named it Servicios de Orientación. So, everything was done with a purpose and a major thought behind it that this is the only way we’re going to be able to serve this grouping of individuals, who had that need at that time. JJ: It was like a mental -- not a sickness, but something -- a mental [00:53:00] problem at that time. HF: Yeah, it wasn’t that they had a mental health sickness, as people would see it. JJ: It was a temporary (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). 30 �HF: Yeah. It was just, you know -- JJ: Destabilization [in the mind, right?]. HF: Yes, in the mind. I mean -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- HF: -- you come in, and you’re really depressed. JJ: Depressed because you’ve lost your whole -- HF: Right. JJ: -- [nation?], your whole country. HF: I remember one gentleman that -- he came in, and, I mean, when he was just talking, and -- what had happened to him was he went grocery shopping, and he saw this box that had the pictures of the chicken on it. Okay? And so, he bought three or four boxes, thinking that he was going to be able to just take this, heat it up, and eat it. Well, it was that Shake ’n Bake. There’s no chicken there. It’s the stuff to layer the chicken with. And so, all those things are enough to make you think, “Yo necesito ayuda, [00:54:00] I really need help here,” you know? And so, basic things. So, when we noticed that there was something that we could not take care of through organizing of people, then, we had to create an entity, okay? To take care of that, and that was when we had to come up with Servicios de Orientación, which is the mental health services to the Latino community, primarily Puerto Ricans coming in in that area. I mean, we did a lot of stuff that had to do with organizing in terms of -- you remember many of the police brutality cases. I mean, cases still exist today, but they’re mostly on profiling, as happened recently with -- 31 �JJ: But, at that time, what were the cases like? HF: People [00:55:00] just being arrested. I remember the group of four gentlemen that were arrested for being in a public way playing dominoes. Well, in Puerto Rico, everybody plays dominoes outdoors. They didn’t know they were in violation [in?] any ordinances, so they took their little table, and they set it up outside, and they were having a grand time playing dominoes. And so, we had to try to explain to the police department, and you know who was great at doing that on our behalf? May she rest in peace. Trina Davila. Trina Davila was one of the people that dealt very directly with the police department. JJ: Who was Trina Davila? There was a center named after her. Who was she? HF: Trina Davila was an older woman that was very involved in the [00:56:00] Puerto Rican community in Lake View. Okay? And, in the days when we were having so many issues with the Chicago Police Department, it was primarily that time -it was the 14th District on Addison and Halsted, where José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez turned himself in to Hanrahan. She was one of the people that opened the door so that we could have a decent dialogue with the police department because, back then, if they didn’t know the culture of the people that were moving into the area, of course there were going to be arrests. “Oh, you’re in violation of the ordinance.” “What ordinance?” You know, “Setting up a domino table outdoors.” On Barry Street, I remember the young men that were arrested simply because they didn’t realize that there [00:57:00] were ordinances on noise levels, so they’d be blaring their music, and police get called. Others were just blatant -like what’s happening around Washington and Division, as you remember, that a 32 �family would call a police officer because their son was uncontrollable due to a medical problem, and the police use excessive force. Okay? So, it was Trina Davila who opened the doors for dialogue with the department so that we could say, “Wait a minute. It’s not that they’re truly in violation. This is a cultural thing.” JJ: But why was she able to do that? I mean, was she in a position to do that? Why --? HF: At that time, she had joined up with one of the advisory groups to the department. And so, she was able to open [00:58:00] that door. JJ: To the police department? HF: Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. JJ: Okay. Now, in Lincoln Park, one of the groups that we had to fight against was the Lincoln Park Neighborhood Association, but you had the Lake View Citizens’ Council. HF: Correct. JJ: So, in Lincoln Park, there actually were no Latino members of that Lincoln Park Neighborhood Association, but you were a separate group within the Lake View Citizens’ Council. HF: We were -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- HF: Lake View Citizens’ Council was a separate group, and the Lake View Latin American Coalition was a separate group. JJ: But you didn’t have a neighborhood association. HF: No. That was against us. 33 �JJ: That was promoting -- HF: No. JJ: -- housing [renovations?]. HF: No. No. JJ: See, we had the Lincoln Park Neighborhood Association. HF: Yes. Right. JJ: So, the Lincoln Park Citizens’ Council was trying to stabilize the community also? HF: Also. Right. Right. I mean, I remember [00:59:00] [Sheila Atkins?] working very hard on all of that. Some of the other organizers that came through that. But, as I said, we were even sharing space, so we didn’t have a relationship of animosity. We were sharing space. There were times when, you know, they [just couldn’t join?] on the issue that we were dealing with, but there were times -like, I remember when we decided to take on Jewel. Well, they were getting some funding from Jewel, so we couldn’t put up the boycott signs or anything on the window because half of the window was theirs. Half of it was ours. But we came to agreements, but we had somewhat of a collaborative relationship once we got going, but, again, that has to do with the skills of the people that were involved with founding the organization, you know. Mm-hmm. JJ: [01:00:00] ’Cause you had already organizing skills at that time. HF: At that time, yeah. Well, you had Charlie, Fineas Flores, and Hector, and many others that came in. We had people from the Latin American -- I can’t remember the -- like Fernando Prieto, who was with the business organization that had just 34 �been created in the Lake View community. And so, they came to the table and worked on stuff with us. Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. Okay. And Lincoln Park was a different -- HF: Mm-hmm. JJ: -- situation, basically. Okay. [Miguel Chevere?]. Did he work with you at all, or -? HF: Miguel Chevere worked very closely with the St. John council that used to be in the Lake View community on Newport and Sheffield on the second [01:01:00] floor, and -- JJ: (inaudible) his name. He also comes from St. Michael’s. HF: Yes. JJ: [Michael’s part?]. HF: St. Michael’s, doing a lot of work there. JJ: So, he worked with the Caballeros de San Juan [here in Lake?] --? HF: He worked with the Caballeros de San Juan in Lake View. JJ: Do you remember the council number? HF: I can’t remember [for council what?], but it was on the second floor on Newport and Sheffield, Clark, and we worked very hard to try to get everybody involved in making certain that the credit union, you know -- a group. I became one of the credit union members back then, one of the first few. JJ: Oh. I mean, so, they were located in Lake View also, the credit union, or --? HF: No. The credit union, remember, was located near Fullerton, California, around that area. 35 �JJ: Okay. But that council was (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HF: Yeah. Right. Right. Right. That council was working with us. Then, the other council that was working with us was providing a lot of the -- [01:02:00] how would you say? Entertainment -- was the council that was near Oak Street and LaSalle. There was another council that operated out of there, and they did social nights. Okay? JJ: Even in the ’60s, you mean? HF: Yeah, they used to do the social nights too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. JJ: Okay. Anything else that -- I guess we’re gonna try to finalize it. What’s important that you think (inaudible) the Lake View community (inaudible)? HF: I think that what really proved to be important out of Lake View community was, number one, that we had that ability to build those special interest groups across the city, and that many of them continue to exist today and continue to work, and that a lot of leadership was created [01:03:00] out of what was happening in the Lake View community, and that many of those individuals felt that they owed something in coming back to other communities in need. I mean, like, the Hector Francos and all of those. Once some work stopped work in Lake View community, they continued, like the business association out of Lake View. They continued doing stuff, but then, at a different level. The Latin American Chamber of Commerce, they merged into that. So, I think that we were able, in the Lake View community, through our work, to do some formation of leaders. Okay? And very dedicated ones at that. [And my?] admiration for many of them. [01:04:00] Young leadership today, they remember some of the work that was 36 �done because of the coalition building that took place. I mean, when we looked at what was happening with the Chicago Police Department, which, as you know, we also sued the Chicago Police Department. See, some things -- if organizing didn’t take care of it, then we would use the judicial system. So -JJ: So, you sued them for what? What was it? HF: We sued the Chicago Police Department for discriminatory practices in hiring and promotion of minorities and women. And so, the test -- they had to redo the test, and then the test was given, and, you know, challenge of height requirements and everything took place back then, and the judge ruled in our favor, [01:05:00] so the test had to be redone. Then, the testing was open. Some of us didn’t believe that the testing would assist the minority communities, so some of the organizers went in and took the test. I took the test. Okay? I went through the physical. But, when it came to, you know, going any further, I said, “No, that’s not going to be for me. I’ve taken it this far.” So, then, we went after the way the psychological exams were done, and we challenged that, and, by this time, when we were doing this kind of work, we had some organizations that could back all of that up because we had, like, the Latin American Police Association. The Puerto Rican Police Association came about, et cetera. And then, we said, “Well, now, we need to organize because the possibility opened up for [01:06:00] Chicago to have a Latino as a superintendent.” So, many of the individuals that had been involved with all the other stuff in terms of organizing joined up with that effort, and we did get Matt Rodriguez as the first Latino superintendent in the city of Chicago. After two tries, but it was done. But that encouraged some of 37 �the young officers that had gone in through the door because of the lawsuit that they, themselves, could go up for promotions. Okay? I then became very politically involved in terms of organizing. JJ: What do you mean by that? HF: I joined up with the Independent Voters-Independent Precinct Organization, which had been formed in 1943, and, when I was in the Lake View community, [01:07:00] two of the individuals that I worked very hard with through the Lake View Latin American Coalition, organizing with them, were Dick Simpson, who became one of the first progressive aldermen in the City Council of Chicago, and [Bill Singer?], from Lincoln Park Also, 43rd Ward. 43rd. I was in Lake View 44th Ward. So, we worked very closely, mostly with Dick Simpson, who is now a professor at University of Illinois, and what we did was the door to door organizing, and he features the Lake View Latin American Coalition from Lake View in his book called Winning Elections for our abilities to go out there and get Latinos involved in that type of organizing to have representation, and we created the neighborhood [01:08:00] assemblies, where Latinos and everybody else could come in, and sit with the alderman, and tell him what things they wanted done through his presence in the city council. So, that was part of the organizing that I’m proud of that was done in Lake View, Lincoln Park area. JJ: And they also developed later into the Harold -- were you involved with that? HF: Oh, with the Harold Washington campaign. Of course we got involved with that. The people that -- again, same young people that came up through the ranks of organizing in Lincoln Park, in Humboldt Park, et cetera, like [Francisco DuPrey 38 �and that?] were part of the Harold Washington campaign. [Peter Earl?] from San Lucas Church, United Church of Christ, Reverendo Morales from United Church of Christ, you know. Yeah. JJ: Okay. Anything else that [you want to?] [01:09:00] touch on, or --? HF: As -- JJ: How do you feel -- well, we already talked about that in terms of -- you felt it was a victory, or skills were learned -- HF: Right. JJ: -- in those areas. HF: Mm-hmm. Well, if you look back in history, in any community, if you’re in organizing, we looked at it as creating soldiers for our communities. Okay? When we were building Universidad Popular, we were saying, “The adults that are coming through Universidad Popular, they have knowledge. All we need to do is help them transfer that knowledge into something else so that they can feel that they can participate.” Okay? I’ll give you one example. I was leading a class, [01:10:00] a thing, a discussion, at Universidad Popular in its early, early, early stages, and what I asked the students to do was either to come up to the board voluntarily or throw out a word or words that they had heard from their employer, their supervisor at work. Okay? And the whole board, whether they could spell the word correctly or not, got filled up with the worst words you can call a human being, and this is how they were being treated at those job sites. Okay? With the worst words that you could call anyone. I mean, they were being called wetbacks. They were being called MF. They were being called 39 �assholes. Anything you -- it went up on that board. So, now, [01:11:00] we knew that we had an organizing job to do with those employers. Okay? And, today, Universidad Popular continues to exist. It doesn’t continue to exist in the Lake View community because the community kind of disintegrated, and moved, and migrated elsewhere due to what was happening there. They ended up coming into the Humboldt Park community. And then, they saw that the greatest need was in the little village community, so they’re now housed at 2801 South on Hamlin. It’s a great model because the model that they’ve been using is people teaching themselves to become more independent. JJ: Now, Hamlin, that’s the west part of Humboldt Park? HF: [01:12:00] No, on Hamlin -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). HF: -- and 28th Street. Near Pulaski and 28th Street. That’s now where they’re housed. JJ: Oh. HF: And so, they run the whole gamut of programs. They’re becoming self selfsufficient. You know, once you learn some English as a survival language, now, you’re better off to be able to get better employment opportunities. They’ve been teaching people there -- they got a grant, and they put up a kitchen, teaching the culinary arts so that people can now move into employment in hotels, et cetera, as assistant chefs. And so, self-sufficiency is the main goal [right at that?]. JJ: Okay. Now, when the Young Lords began, we kind of came right out of [the gang?] and into a neighborhood group, and without any skills of organizing or 40 �anything like that, and I see that [01:13:00] the Latin American Lake View Citizens’ Council -- [is that the correct?] -- they learned skills. You got training for skills, but, both ways, we still -- I mean, we made a dent. HF: That’s right. JJ: We got a lot of skills -- HF: Yeah. JJ: -- out of it and a lot of leadership in other areas, but we still lost our community there because this was a master plan planned way ahead of time. HF: Yeah. JJ: But what do you feel are some ways that we can stabilize the community today? I mean, because, now, it’s happening in Humboldt Park. HF: It’s happening in Humboldt Park. I mean, if you look at -- JJ: What can we do to try to put a halt on it? HF: Yeah. At Humboldt Park right now, it is the high level of foreclosures happening, and you’ve got the Spanish Coalition for Housing trying to work on [01:14:00] that to make certain that, you know, people latch onto some of the programs that are coming into being to assist them. Then, you’ve got, bless his soul, Hipolito Roldán, [Hippo?], working with the Hispanic Housing Development Corporation, where he takes over all these buildings, and he guts them out, and then he’s able to either rent or sell them at a cost that families can afford. You’ve got Bickerdike also working there to bring about some housing stability, but I remember, in the days of the Young Lord, well, what we had was [sleazy life realty?], what we used to call. You know, injecting fear into people so that they would just move 41 �out and sell out. Now, it’s the high level of foreclosure due to the fact that people cannot continue to keep up with their mortgage, and that’s a harder one to tackle. So, I don’t [01:15:00] know if we’ll completely, completely lose all of Humboldt Park, but, certainly, a major effort is being made to -- you’ve got the Puerto Rican Cultural Center doing the Muévete campaign, the come back to Humboldt Park campaign, where they advertise all the availability of buildings where there’s rental for them. Okay? Who else is working hard? But, yeah, we did lose it in Lake View in terms of the development that took place there, constantly moving us further west or northwest. Same thing happened there in Lincoln Park, and we’ve seen it, now, happening -- if you look all the way from Ashland on Division to Damen, all the way [01:16:00] from -- what? Chicago to Armitage. It’s not the high level of Puerto Rican population that we used to have. I mean, just by taking a drive through Division in that area there, Bucktown, okay? You see the sidewalk cafe. You see the neat little boutiques, you know? And so, that became some of the signs of the times. When the Chicago Park District built the tennis court inside of Humboldt Park, many of us [used to say?], “Okay. Pack up. Leave. We’re being asked to leave.” You know, tennis courts? The tennis courts remain there, but the community is still trying to hold strong to that area, called De Bandera a Bandera. So, [01:17:00] the Paseo Boricua group is also working to stabilize the community. So, De Bandera a Bandera is from Western and Division, where the giant flag was erected, all the way over to -- I think it’s Richmond and Division, one block west of California. So, that’s the boundary 42 �that most of us work with (inaudible) and say, “That’s the spot that we want to stabilize.” JJ: Okay. (inaudible). HF: Pardon me? JJ: (inaudible). HF: Well, yes. Yeah. And then, that’s why the Puerto Rican Agenda is key. It’s why Paul Roldán’s Hispanic Housing Development Corporation is key. That’s why Spanish Coalition for Housing is key, ’cause they’re working with landlords, and then they’re also working [01:18:00] with the landowners and the tenants to assist them so that we could try to lay claim forever to Humboldt Park. JJ: Anything else that you want to add? HF: No. Anyone that is going through this material, just remember that change can only happen if you engage yourself totally to bringing it about, that, if you stand by the sidelines, you’re not going to make the change or reap the benefits either. JJ: Thank you. END OF AUDIO FILE 43 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/75051e2d37e47683630b7e08561b3600.mp4 22cdceb5c93f0d7c8f4e8741c961f25d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Hilda Frontany vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Idioma español--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Renovación urbana--Illinois--Chicago Housing--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Frontany_Hilda Title A name given to the resource Hilda E. Frontany video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Frontany, Hilda Description An account of the resource Hilda Frontany is a long-time community activist whose family first lived in the Water Hotel in Chicago’s La Clark neighborhood when they arrived in Chicago from Puerto Rico. In the late 1960s and 1970s she devoted her work to addressing the housing crisis that was displacing Latinos and the poor from Chicago’s Lakeview Neighborhood, a community located just north of Lincoln Park. As a member of the Lakeview Citizens Council, Ms. Frontany provided a public voice for Latinos and helped support homeowners. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Urban renewal--Illinois--Chicago Housing--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-30 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5cc5dcf07eea2c8d0d2d9605b964b099.pdf af2e90ef5e97d2c62a49c54b3bfef0fe PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Dimas Rodríguez Flores Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 6/21/2012 Biography and Description Dimas Rodríguez Flores grew up since the 1930s in Barrio San Salvador of Caguas, Puerto Rico and continues to live there in the Lao Frío side of the barrio. He is a twin brother with Encarnación Rodríguez Flores who lives in Barrio Espino on the other side of Monte Peluche, a tall mountain peak that never has snow on it and is visible to all of of San Salvador and most parts of El Espino of San Lorenzo. They have another eleven siblings, including their youngest sister, Eugenia Rodríguez Flores. Although Mr. Rodríguez has always lived in Puerto Rico, like many Puerto Ricans his life is connected to cities across the United States mainland through family. Many of his children live in the United States: Ramon is a teacher and lived for many years in Aurora, Illinois. Juan worked with Teo Arroyo to bring the first Puerto Rican parade to Aurora. Pablo is currently a Catholic priest. A veteran of World War II, Mr. Rodríguez loves to play his cuatro and is well educated, constantly reading. He is a devout Catholic and in his early years collaborated with the Hermanos Cheo, or Brothers Joe, an organization of lay preachers who sought to preserve Catholicism on the island at a time when there were few Puerto Rican priests. The Hermanos Cheo also got families to cooperate with each other during the Great Depression and World War II. Mr. Rodríguez has remained a recognized leader of the Catholic capilla of San Salvador throughout this life. At one time in the 1960s he was deeply involved in the Acción Cristiana Political Party, but he later rejected that affiliation because, “the church has to remain separate from the politics �of the state.” Mr. Rodríguez explains that he was for Puerto Rican independence but rejected the politics of Don Pedro Albizu Campos because, “it was violent and scared people.” Mr. Rodríguez reveals that he too was being watched and harassed during the 1950s by government agents, just for wanting independence. Repression was then going on all over the island, as the Nationalist Party was making their revolution. Today, Mr. Rodríguez is retired, enjoys his parakeets, and cooking his vegetables and eating the fruits of his land. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a9657789052bdeb209545171091cfddc.mp4 98a7492246b0d6f0c9a5a82e6257caa2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Dimas Rodríguez Flores vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Idioma español--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomía y movimientos independentistas Puertorriqueños--Vida social y costumbres Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Flores_Dimas Title A name given to the resource Dimas Rodríguez Flores video interview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Flores, Dimas Description An account of the resource Dimas Rodríguez Flores grew up since the 1930s in Barrio San Salvador of Caguas, Puerto Rico and continues to live there in the Lao Frío side of the barrio. He is a twin brother with Encarnación Rodríguez Flores. They have another eleven siblings, including their youngest sister, Eugenia Rodríguez Flores. Although Mr. Rodríguez has always lived in Puerto Rico, like many Puerto Ricans his life is connected to cities across the United States mainland through family; many of his children live in the United States. A veteran of World War II, Mr. Rodríguez is now retired. He enjoys his parakeets, cooking his vegetables, and eating the fruits of his land. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomy and independence movements Puerto Ricans--Social life and customs Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-06-21 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9f46468d32b54e4bafa02810ad6938ae.pdf 97ff4af8f433e0def045774ddeab1476 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Carlos Flores Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/29/2012 Biography and Description Carlos Flores is a cultural activist who lived at La Salle and Superior in the La Clark barrio, growing up on Armitage Avenue. He takes pride in relating that his family was “the last of the Puerto Ricans to leave Lincoln Park” and recalls life in Lincoln Park which included his share of minor street battles as a teen member of the Continentals Social Club. Mr. Flores also fought for Puerto Ricans as a full fledged member of the Young Lords.Mr. Flores served on the Chicago Mayor’s Advisory Council on Latino Affairs, under Harold Washington. This council was first set up in 1983 by the Young Lords and four other Latino representative organizations city-wide soon after Harold Washington was elected the first African American mayor in Chicago history. Its purpose was to make recommendations of potential candidates to the various departments and for other Hispano concerns. Mr. Flores earned a Bachelor’s Degree in Education from the University of Illinois and he holds a Master’s Degree in Criminal Justice. He has worked as a private investigator for the Office of Civil Rights, Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, and the Illinois Department of Public Aid. He plays the vibraphone, is a free- lance photographer, and a documenter and promoter of Puerto Rican and Afro-Caribbean music. Mr. Flores is also founding member of the Puerto Rican Arts Alliance and a former coordinator for Project Kalinda, at Columbia College’s Center for Black Music Research. Since 1998, Mr. Flores has assisted in organizing an annual Cuatro Festival. He produced a documentary film about the 1998 Havana Jazz Festival and has �written many essays on Afro-Caribbean and Puerto Rican music, some published in journals such as Chicago’s De Paul University Dialogo and the Centro Journal of Hunter College in New York. Mr. Flores has conducted his own oral history interviews with Chicago Puerto Rican residents, and as a photographer has held exhibitions at Malcolm X College, the Old Humboldt Park Stable Museum and the Old Town School of Folk Music. Currently, Mr. Flores continues his community leadership, giving lectures on Puerto Ricans, Afro- Caribbean music, and urban renewal displacement for the Urban Life Center. He also teaches a workshop for the Neighborhood Writing Alliance and another workshop on Puerto Rican tiple construction. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, if you could -- Carlos, if you can give me your full name, when you were born. CARLOS FLORES: Yeah. My name is Carlos Flores. I was born in Guayama, Puerto Rico, in 1949. I arrived in Chicago in June of 1959, at the age of 10, or right before turning 10. The first place that I moved to that I lived in Chicago was in Superior and La Salle, which is like in the area right around Clark Street and Chicago Avenue, near there. And so I spent a couple of years there, and then went to school at Ogden Elementary School. JJ: How old were you then, about? CF: 10, 11. JJ: So what was Ogden like? I mean -- go ahead and answer. CF: Ogden school was, well, you know, it was kind of interesting because back in those days, it was a lot of Puerto Rican -- my sisters were already here. They had been here, like, maybe three or four years before. But Ogden School [00:01:00] was kind of like, at that time there was no bilingual education, so what I remember from that situation is that I used to be put in the back of the room, and all I did, I spent drawing in Crayolas all day long because, you know, I couldn’t communicate with the teacher. I couldn’t participate in the classroom because I didn’t speak the language. So, you know, it was a disadvantage in terms of my educational process at that early age, in terms of the disruption that happened with it. You know, coming from Puerto Rico, being in school, and then 1 �coming here and actually being put through that whole disruption, which eventually did have an impact on my educational life because eventually, I ended up dropping out of high school and getting kicked out of high school. You know, I just like -- the interest, and I really lost focus in terms of, you know, educational objectives, you know, that you might have gone through as, you know, as -- I mean, the [00:02:00] initial process would have been to go through grammar school, high school, and then into college. That would have been the smooth transition. But many of us came here, and the disruption of the language barrier actually caused -- had a cause and effect on a lot of our lives because of the fact that we -- by the time we’re already in high school, we just, you know, we were so far behind trying to catch up that a lot of us just gave up, had no aspiration. I mean, and then, you know, people would not have ever talked to us about going to college. That was like something that you need, you know, it was unheard of, you know? So. But, you know, I remember living there. I remember there was -right on the corner of Superior and Clark Street, there was a store called the Spanish American Food. It was kind of like one of the first stores that actually provided services to people living in that area. So they had all kinds of produce, and all kinds of stuff. Then you had several theaters on Clark Street. You had [00:03:00] one which was called the Standard, which we used to call [el marito?], which, you know, was like 10 cents a pop, but it was horrible. And then down the street was the Newberry, which was about a block away, and then about two or three blocks from there was the Windsor, which was on Clark and Division. And so those were the theater houses that we would go to when we were kids. But 2 �then I didn’t live there. You know, we lived maybe one or two years there. Then we moved to 17th -JJ: What type of housing was there? CF: Well, you know, we live in apartment buildings. And you know, there was a lot of Puerto Ricans living there. They were all living, and right there, in the corner of La Salle and Superior, there was also an orphanage that was run by the Catholic archdiocese. There was a lot of orphans that lived there. I mean, the building is still there. The area’s changed a lot, but that particular building is still there. A lot of the housing that was there was a lot of apartment buildings. And so basically that was the [00:04:00] kind of housing that was there. We used to live like on the third floor, right there on Superior and La Salle. Then from there, we moved to another building -- JJ: The [Water?] Hotel was across the street? CF: The what? JJ: The Water Hotel. Was that across the street? CF: The Water Hotel? JJ: There was a hotel called the Water Hotel. CF: There was a bunch of hotels, man, on Erie, Ontario. I mean, they was part of Skid Row in a way, back in the days. I mean, I was too young to, you know, even realize, but I know that there was like on Clark Street, south of Chicago Avenue there was numerous hotels that actually, you know, housed a lot of the people that would -- at that time, you know, they were called bums, and they were just bumming around. A lot of alcoholics, and it’s kind of interesting because it’s right 3 �in the outskirts of downtown that you had this thing going on, and then all of a sudden when the city, you know, began to clean up, they really cleaned up, you know. They surgically just removed all those people, just like they removed people [00:05:00] from, you know, in other areas a little bit later on. But they began by cleaning out that whole area. I mean, they’re still doing that, you know. They’re doing it all the way on the west side now where the united -- the United Center is, where the Bulls play basketball. The UIC, Cook County Medical Center, and Rush Presbyterian. That whole area has been surgically removed, and they’ve gotten rid of all the people who live in those areas. So like it started there, but there was a lot of, you know, it was called Skid Row back in the days. I don’t remember the name of the hotels, but there were quite a few that were, you know, up and down the street. Also on State Street, too. So. JJ: So you were going to Ogden, and then from there where did you go after that? CF: From there, we went to -- we then moved to 1714 North Larrabee, which was another, you know, Puerto Ricans were also moving to that area. And from there, I went to a school called Newberry, [00:06:00] which today is called a Newberry Academy. It’s like a school where a lot of the -- what is it, the talented, creative kids go to school there now. But back in the days, it was like, there was a neighborhood school, and there was a lot of us that would go to school there. It was kind of like somewhat integrated. It was becoming more integrated as more people lived there. So that’s how we actually -- where I grew up most of the time, in terms of my whole teen years, on Larrabee Street. I used to hang out at St. 4 �Michael’s High School, St. Michael’s Church, which was like two blocks away from my house, and -JJ: So you didn’t go to St. Michael’s at all? CF: No, I didn’t go to -- I went to St. Michael’s in high school. JJ: Oh, in high school. You didn’t -- CF: So in grammar school I went to, like, I went to Newberry and I went to [Arnold?]. JJ: And Newberry was a -- CF: Public school. JJ: Public school that was mixed, you said, at that time? CF: Yeah, it was integrated. It was integrated. It was integrated. Mostly, you know, Puerto Ricans, whites, some Black kids. [00:07:00] There were some kids that used to live on Burling Street where, you know, we used to call them gypsies, you know. They were like some of the gypsy kids that lived there. But they were like from different parts of Europe, and their families, like the [Horvaths?] and the [Doonas?], and the [Laceys?]. Those were the names of the people who lived there. JJ: So there were a lot of them, though. CF: There were a lot of them. There was like a whole block on Burling. I mean, it used to be to the point that we used to get into fights with them. But then at the end, at one time there used to be, you know, like they used to mess with us, you know, as kids, and then eventually we outgrew them, and after a while we actually -- there was more of us than there was of them. But at one time, they 5 �were kind of like these bullies kind of kids. Like I remember one guy named Dennis Horvath, and [Gary Doona?] all those guys, you know. JJ: Yeah, I knew Gary Doona. I met him. CF: Gary Doona, yeah. All those guys, you know, they thought that they were like some bad dudes, but in reality, you know, when it came down to nitty gritty, you know, [00:08:00] they didn’t have no heart. JJ: So now when you were fighting them at that time, you were not part of a group. CF: Nah, it was just kid stuff, man. Yeah, you know, grammar school, you know, sixth, seventh, eighth grade, you know, that kind of stuff. And like I said, after a while, we actually outgrew them. You know, there was more of us than it was them. You know, it was like, so there was always a lot of conflicts in grammar school after school. But you know, like six -- JJ: What were some of the conflicts? CF: Huh? I don’t know. I guess someone probably saying something to one of the girls who actually was a cousin of them, or their sister, and they didn’t want -because you know, in a way, they were a little bit prejudiced, you know. Even though they looked just like us, you know? They were like dark-skinned, oliveskinned people, but they were like -- they had some kind of -- some prejudices and racist attitudes about, you know, who we were as a people. And you could tell. You know, you could always tell that attitude about [00:09:00] you know, like, they would not hesitate in calling somebody “nigger”. You know, and in a moment’s notice. But yeah, but that was not even an issue. You know, after a 6 �while, they just like calmed down and chilled. So from there, you know, I went to school at Arnold, and then my family also then bought their first house. JJ: So they moved from Larrabee -- CF: From Larrabee to 1120 West Armitage, which is right on Armitage, near Sheffield. Now when I was living on Larrabee, it was kind of interesting because I was involved in that community. As a matter of fact, I actually played baseball, little league baseball, in this one league called the Old Time Little League, and I was probably like the Jackie Robinson of that league because I was the first Black, Puerto Rican kid that played baseball in that whole league. And then, but that was a whole thing in Lincoln Park where I grew up. JJ: What were some of the teams there? [00:10:00] You know, because I played in a baseball team, too. CF: Yeah, but you know what that -- JJ: But I never was too connected -- CF: Well that little league, the teams were like -- JJ: Oh, we played regular hardball in little league. CF: Right, it was a little league. But these teams were like named after baseball teams. You know, like I was in the team called the Cubs, and they had the Cardinals, and so, you know, it was an interesting little league. JJ: I was on the Leprechauns. CF: The what? JJ: The Leprechauns. CF: The Leprechauns? 7 �JJ: Yeah, and there was an Italian baseball [medic?]. CF: Yeah, well I played baseball [all but the ball?]. But the interesting thing about Lincoln Park during that time period is that every Sunday, every weekend, the place is packed because, you know, the passion of a Puerto Rican was baseball. That was their thing. And so every Sunday you went to Lincoln Park, that place was really packed. You know, my dad used to be a baseball manager. They would use all the diamonds in the park. Every diamond, baseball diamond that was there was being utilized. And you know, I remember them playing league ball, but then they were playing softball, [00:11:00] the 12-inch fast pitch, which was actually a league that was run by the Caballeros of San Juan for many, many years. But so, you know, Puerto Ricans on Saturdays and Sundays were usually in that park. I mean, if you go by there now today, it looks like a desert because ever since, you know, people started giving them doubt, and Puerto Ricans no longer use that park to play baseball anymore, and the high schools closed down. So I don’t know what they’re doing with that land. I mean, it’s just there, and nothing’s being done with it. The baseball -- I hardly ever see anyone playing baseball there anymore. JJ: So you mentioned the Caballeros of San Juan. Who were they? CF: Caballeros of San Juan was this organization that was formed by the Catholic archdiocese to actually I guess, you know, make life a little better for Puerto Ricans that migrated to Chicago. Like, you know, the big migrations started coming to Chicago like in 1946, and from 1946 to 1966, it was a major migration. I mean, one of the biggest [00:12:00] migrations of one particular group from one 8 �area to the other, and there’s like thousands and thousands of Puerto Ricans that migrated here, you know, looking for a better life, better jobs, and so a lot of the people that came to live here were not -- you know, they were kind of like in a way peasants, in a way. They were not, you know, educated people. They were like people that, you know, were either working as peasants or farmers, and they decided they wanted a better life for their kids and their families, so they just took a chance, got on a plane, and came here. And they found work, and they did okay because, you know, some of them raised families, you know, had their kids go to college for the first time, and the end result is that we have some of the major players that live in this city who actually came from those families. So it wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t a group of really educated, sophisticated, middle class [00:13:00] Puerto Ricans that migrated to the city. It was basically more the less educated, poor peasant population that came from Puerto Rico from 1946 to ’66. I mean, now, you know, it’s a whole different ball game. But those were the people that were living here like in the ‘50s and in the ‘60s. You know, and then living in different areas of the cities where they came. They actually lived in the south side, in Woodlawn. They moved to, you know, Clark Street, which is like near Lincoln Park. I think they call that now Gold Coast. That’s what that neighborhood’s called now there. Because you know that Chicago is broken into all these, like, trendy neighborhoods. Gold Coast, they lived in Garfield Park, they lived in Lincoln Park, Humbolt Park, and so they lived -- they were scattered throughout the whole city. So -- and as they came here, they began to establish their own little things. So with the Caballeros and the archdiocese there then, 9 �[00:14:00] I think that they were part of this process of actually recruiting Puerto Ricans to come to work here. Because that’s how the whole migration came, you know. There was an employment agency that went to Puerto Rico to recruit. JJ: What was the name of that? CF: I think it was Castle something. It starts with Castle. It was an employment company, employment agency that recruited. And what they were doing is they were looking for domestic workers and also people to work in the steel plants in east Chicago and throughout the city. And so you know what they did is they actually brought in like kind of like a labor force from the island to work here. And so, you know, a lot of these folks came, they didn’t speak the English, they, you know, it was a whole rude awakening coming from beautiful island to this winter, this cold, cold-blooded, you know, big city, and so the thing is that [00:15:00] the Caballeros and the archdiocese, given that, you know, most Latinos, mainly Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, Latino and Latin American, and the Latin American and the Caribbean, they’re all -- they’re Catholics. So this is a service that the archdiocese put together, and they began programs of how to make Puerto Ricans, you know, to -- what’s the word I’m looking for? To integrate, and to actually melt into the melting pot, into the mainstream of here in the city of Chicago. So they would give them, like, English classes. They would, you know, do social programs to help them out. There was also this whole system of, you know, recreation. That’s what they did, you know, so one of the recreations would be baseball leagues. They created baseball leagues, softball leagues. They used to have all these councils in different neighborhoods, Concilios, where 10 �a lot of the people from that area, based on a parish. So they would take a church, [00:16:00] and they would have a council out of those churches. So like in St. Michael’s, where I grew up in, it was Concilio Numero Tres, Council Number Three. They were gone -- they were not given names, but they were like by numbers, you know, Council Number Three, Number Four, Number Five. They had one south of -- they had one in Chicago on Orleans, which is part of St. Joseph. They had them all over the city. And so they come together, they played baseball, they played dominos, they would have fundraisers, and they would have dances. And it was an interesting, you know, clique of people helping each other out back in those days. And then you also had the whole dynamics which a lot of people have never even studied. I mean, I think that this is something that is part of a history project in its own, is this whole thing of social clubs. Because you know, nowadays in Chicago, you have, like, for example, one of the biggest clubs you have here is La Sociedad Michoacana, [00:17:00] which is, you know, a lot of these people from Michoacan, which actually from Mexico, will actually have formed like a civic society, Los Hijos or La Sociedad Michoacana. And these folks will send money back to even to the point where they actually have bought ambulances and firetrucks with the money that they made here and they sent it back. But that whole concept is a concept that it had been here already, because the way that the social clubs work is that, for example, they would have [La Sociedad de Ponce, Los Hijos de Vega Baja?], and they had their own little -besides what the Concilios had in the archdiocese, they had these private clubs. And what they did is that they had dances, they raised money, they had their 11 �own, you know, officers, and they would, like, self-sustain. And so they also provided and all this. So like if someone from Vega Baja was going to come to Chicago, the people in Vega Baja would say, “Well you know, when you go to Chicago, [00:18:00] check out the people in the Vega Baja club.” And you go there, and you go there, you introduce yourself, and you’re going to find people that either know you, know your family, know where you’re from, and they would help you find housing and jobs and so forth. So there was -- it was kind of like an interesting thing. I mean, I think -- I mean, that’s been one of my things of actually going back and studying that whole concept with the social clubs, you know, [Los Hijos de Ponce?], [Los Hijos des Caguas?]. Every town had a little social club, man. And that kind of, you know, kind of kept the community together in terms of knowing, you know, who was what, what was going on. So it was kind of like our own little community being formed. Because you know, down in Lincoln Park, we had what they call a Puerto Rican community center. The Puerto Rican community center was located on Dickens and Halsted on the second floor. They had a baseball team. They had -- they were there for years. I think this guy named Mike [Rivera?] was the president of it, and [Florito?] and all these guys were, [00:19:00] you know, people go there on weekends to play dominos, play pool, hang out, have a beer. And you know, that’s how they were able to keep themselves afloat from, you know, from all that other stuff, you know, in terms of going crazy with the winter and everything else. So, you know, the social club played a tremendous role in the survival of Puerto Rican migration into the city of Chicago. 12 �JJ: And what about -- there were other groups too like the, you know, did you know anything about the Puerto Rican Congress? CF: Oh yeah. There were other groups. There were like [El Puerto Ricua?] which won -- which actually was formed by -- JJ: Had you ever gone in there? CF: Yeah, as a matter of fact, I remember the -- well I remember in the ‘60s, they had their building right on Milwaukee, right over the -- right there by the expressway on Milwaukee south of Augusta. Between Augusta and Chicago, there was a little building there, and they -- I mean, I remember because I used to -- you know, [00:20:00] we used to play baseball, used to play baseball against them. I played baseball on one of the little league teams. It was called [El Posto Boricua?]. And it was an army, VA post center, you know, for the army veterans. A lot of the veterans that went to Korea that were veterans. JJ: Puerto Rican veterans? CF: Puerto Rican veterans, right, that went there. As a matter of fact, the organization existed not until a couple of years ago. I don’t think that they’re around anymore, but that was one of the -- and then you had the -- JJ: What did they do? What did they do? You said you went in there? CF: They probably -- you know, I was young, so they probably, you know, did the same thing. You know, did events and activities that promoted and helped Puerto Rican veterans. You know, I mean, I think that was their target, you know, in terms of helping Puerto Rican veterans and providing you know, again, another civic organization to help, you know, the process where Puerto Rican 13 �veterans would get together. Then you had the Puerto Rican Congress, which is another organization [00:21:00] that -- I think they were formed like in 1952 or ’53. And that organization also served the same role. Not the same role as the church, because the Caballeros, you know, it was more of a Christian, religious type of an organization, and they had all these different structures of -JJ: But they were huge. I mean -- CF: Oh, the Caballeros were huge. I mean, these other organizations were, you know, they were more kind of like grassroots organizations where people came in. Now the Puerto Rican Congress, what they did is, I remember they had the one building was on Larrabee and North Avenue. They might have been somewhere else before that, but that was like one of the first places. I used to play baseball with their little league team, and they were a lot into baseball. Now, it’s interesting because, you know, we’re getting ready to do -- there’s an exhibit that’s going to be displayed, I think in April, first, second week -- next week, as a matter of fact -- about the legacy of Roberto Clemente. It’s at the Smithsonian Institute. It’s one of two exhibits that are going to be [00:22:00] presented. It’s a traveling exhibit that they’re going to be presenting in Chicago. And so the Roberto Clemente’s going to be happening within the next week or so, and it’s kind of interesting. I mean, I’m thinking of going to the reception. I hadn’t really decided but, you know, the whole thing about Roberto Clemente not only being a great baseball player, but also, you know, the life lessons that he taught us in terms of being humble, being, you know, a person with a lot of pride, and being very proud of who he was, not only as a Black Puerto Rican, but as a great 14 �human being. So I think that, you know, that’s what we walk away from this life. That’s why he actually was so revered because, you know, the guy even gave his life, you know, going, you know, getting on this plane, and that was kind of like suicide because he would have checked the plane, you know, the guy who actually got Clemente to hire him, you know, had a defective plane. [00:23:00] And the plane, you know, had not been, you know, it’s terrible what happened. He could have avoided from going, from dying. JJ: So basically what happened to the plane? CF: The plane, as soon as they took off, it, you know, and the plane was like -- JJ: It was loaded with what? CF: It was loaded with supplies, you know, because of the -- they had an earthquake in Nicaragua. And Clemente had been there like maybe the year or two before to play baseball in the Pan-American -- not the Pan-American, but [La Serie Caribe?]. He went to play then. He said the people were a little beautiful, so he actually wanted to give back. So he got on this plane, but the plane that -- the whole story is that the guy who actually heard Clemente, you know, trying to look for a plane to take supplies and, you know, he knew he had a defective plane. And so he told Clemente, “Yeah, I can do it. And you can ride with us.” And that plane was loaded up, it was defective, it was like -- so as soon as it took off, it just went down. And they never recovered his body. But [00:24:00] that whole thing of actually learning from him about how you -- I mean, a lot of us learned a lot of things from him. One of the things that I learned in life from him is that -and so a lot of people also because Clemente was also criticized because a lot 15 �of, you know, the American media kind of felt that he was a hypochondriac -what’s the word that I can’t -JJ: Hypochondriac. CF: Hypochondriac, where he was always complaining that he was hurt and stuff. But he used to hate to give interviews because of the language barrier. He couldn’t speak English as well, and so what the media would do is they would actually verbatim repeat what he would say in broken English. And, you know, and kind of like was making fun of him. And he kind of didn’t really care for that kind of stuff. So he actually stayed to himself to a lot. So what happens -- and I can relate to that, because I know that a lot of people -- I hear they think that -[00:25:00] they confuse, you know, your integrity and your self-respect and the way you conduct yourself with being arrogant, you know, and that’s not the case. I mean, even African American ballplayers who would criticize Clemente that he was never, you know, a communicative guy. Well he couldn’t, you know, he couldn’t talk to them. He couldn’t really communicate with them because he had language barriers. But also, this whole thing about this pride and this integrity and the self-respect that you have, a lot of people sometimes confuse that as you being a showoff, or you think that you’re better than anybody else. No, that’s not it. It’s that, you know, you had a certain pride. I mean, one of the things I’ve learned, if I get kicked out of somewhere, I don’t go back. I mean, I learned that from my mama, you know. I take my pride and walk away. You just don’t walk away from -- you know, keep coming back and then slapping in your face. So that was the kind of thing you learned from Clemente, but I was going to go to the 16 �event and actually tell people [00:26:00] that traditionally that’s our sport. You know, Puerto Ricans have always traditionally -- they’re baseball folks. Not in comparison to the Mexican community, which their main sport is soccer, right? So the Clemente thing, I was just going to say that Clemente had a great influence on our baseball thing, but in 1959, we also had the history in Chicago. In 1959, there was a team from the Puerto Rican Congress that won the national championship. A lot of people don’t know about that, but in 1959, there was a team that entered into a tournament in the Park District. They won all the way up the ranks. They won all the things, the state championship, and they ended up representing Chicago in the Midwest, and they played in Dayton, Ohio. I think that they played the championship game with a team from Birmingham, from Alabama somewhere. And they beat them for the national championship. I mean, I hear stories about -JJ: They were from Lincoln Park? CF: [00:27:00] Yeah, some of them were from Lincoln Park, exactly. You had people like [Benny Torres?], [Rigby Lleya?], you know, [Mochito Alves?] was one of the managers on that team. There was, you know, a bunch of guys that were very talented that came out. So you know, obviously that’s [an accomplishment?]. A lot of Puerto Ricans don’t know that. And we had people out here who are now in charge of our history who don’t talk about that kind of stuff, and those kind of things are important to tell folks about. So, you know, and then you had people -because, you know, you had a kid right now. His name, I think, is [Victor Cruz?] or something, who actually played with the Mets. He actually went to Clemente 17 �High School. So there was a product that came out of that. But we also had people like Benny Torres, Rigby Lleya. We had [Ephraim Valentín?] who was one of the Valentín brothers who actually -- who were assigned to a major league contract including this guy [Reynaldo Ramos?], [Bobo’s?] brother, who spent like two years in the minor leagues with the Yankees, [00:28:00] you know, who were like teammates together. So it’s kind of interesting that we’ve contributed to the betterment and growth of the city. You know, so in ’59, here we are, national champions of an amateur baseball tournament that a lot of people really pay no attention. And there are stories about the little second baseman was real short. He’s in the hotel, and there’s this big old white guy who was saying, “Hey, you must be the bat boy.” And so the little Puerto Rican second baseman says, “Okay, I’ll be the bat boy.” So when they’re playing, the guy hits the ball way out there, and he's running the bases, and he’s telling the guy, “I’m the bat boy you were talking about yesterday.” Those are the kind of stories -- because you know [Bob Medina?] also played on that team. And Bob Medina was one of the people that was involved with the politics in the city. He was a campaign manager and so forth. So he was also part of that whole baseball league. So we have a tradition and we have a history of things that we’ve contributed to the growth of the city. JJ: And that was with the [00:29:00] Puerto Rican Congress? CF: Those were the Puerto Rican Congress. So that was just an aspect. And then, you know, the Puerto Rican Congress later got involved with -- because they always worked with the youth. They was always trying to figure out different 18 �ways to channel that energy. And so then they got into the business of music, and they actually formed a music academy, and as a result, some of our top players now came out of that academy and are doing great things musically. Like there’s this guy named Edwin Sanchez who’s actually a piano player. He’s played with La India. He’s actually played piano with the Tito Puente Orchestra. He played with Jimmy Bosch. He’s played with a bunch of -JJ: He actually was married to my daughter, too, (inaudible). CF: Edwin? JJ: Edwin Sanchez, yeah. CF: No kidding. The piano player? JJ: Yeah, he’s the father of my granddaughter, yeah. CF: No shit. Edwin was? JJ: Yeah. CF: Wow. I didn’t know that. Because he’s married -- he got married -- JJ: I’m ending this interview. (laughs) CF: Yeah, because I actually -- he got married again. [00:30:00] I didn’t know that. JJ: Yeah, he got married again. CF: I didn’t know that. JJ: Yeah, Nyla is his daughter. CF: Ah, okay. Yeah, Edwin is one of those guys that came out and, you know, people like Mike Rivera, this kid that just died [Richie Biyo?] was one -- JJ: Yeah, [Damon Rodriguez?] was -- 19 �CF: Right, the [tres?] player, your cousin. Yeah, they were all involved. I mean, I had four of -- so he had came out with a bunch of bands. But a lot of the kids that came out of those groups are actually -- as a matter of fact, there’s this record company that actually just reissued all their albums called [Numero Uno?], the record label. And they actually wrote the whole history. And they actually -- I got into some shit with them, you know, because they were out to make money. It wasn’t a thing of them trying to produce [this thing?]. They all wrote -- make money, and they actually wrote a historical analysis of the whole music scene back in the ‘70s, and I actually criticized them because the actual what they put out was not [00:31:00] really the truth. You know, they were talking about the music of the bands from the Puerto Rican Congress were like the top bands out here and they weren’t. Because, you know, there were like bands even back in the ‘50s, the music bands that were like -- when we were kids, you know, [Un Maquaeño?], [Felipe La Grande Sonora?], there was a whole bunch of groups that were playing. And you know, these were like little kids. And so their sound was okay. It was mediocre, but there was already bands already in place that were playing [some main?] music. But that’s just part of the growth and the development of us living in the city. JJ: Okay, now what about -- were you familiar with some of the dances that St. Michael’s was -- CF: Oh yeah. They used to have -- you know, just to think about that, and it’s kind of interesting that. You know, and I actually asked Jesus Rodriguez about this, how the church would treat us [00:32:00] as parishioners. 20 �JJ: Who is Jesus Rodriguez? CF: Jesus Rodriguez was one of the leaders of the church, of the Catholic church in Chicago. He was [cursillistas?]. We used to have like [cursillos?] which actually were like religious instructions and educational retreats that actually would actually educate people on religious affairs. And so he was one of the [cursillistas?] and was also a leader in the band -- the band -- a leader in the church. And so he was involved in the St. Michael’s church and, you know, it’s kind of almost as close to a priest as possible because what they would do is they would have masses, and the priests were basically not -- they were not Spanish-speaking priests. So the priest would do the mass in Latin or in English, and then Jesus Rodriguez would actually translate, you know, what was being said. But the interesting thing about that is that mostly [00:33:00] all the churches would never allow the Puerto Ricans to have mass in the big church. They would always have us do, you know, trying to treat us like second class citizens. They would always have us have our masses either in the school building next door or in the basement of the school building. Never in the big church. And it wasn’t until years later that -- JJ: At St. Michael’s they -- the Puerto Ricans did not go to the -- CF: The main church. JJ: They had to -- CF: They went to -- they had mass in the building right next door, which is like on the side, remember? Because I used to go there. They said, “Get going.” I sent coffee for free, man. I would go there. I would go to the big church and then 21 �right after that I would go and get some donuts and stuff, and that’s how they -and they used to pack, you know, they used to have two masses. I think one at 10:00 and one at 11:00, you know, to accommodate everybody. JJ: So when you say pack, I mean, how many -- CF: I would say that each mass it was probably about 150, 200 people. [00:34:00] In one setting with the kids, the whole family, because it’s whole families church, you know. It’s the mother, the wife, the father, and the kids. And so they would all go to church. And then they would have the mass, and then they would go down to the basement. But never you would ever have church in the big church. It was never there. And it wasn’t until later, and then they would have, like, major dances at St. Michael’s, and they would have to have them in the gym, the high school gym. And that’s really where we had the dances, and people come out, and they -- JJ: Did a lot of people come out dancing? CF: Yeah, a lot of people came out to the dances. They, you know, had Black bands, and -- JJ: About how many people came out? CF: I would say three or four hundred people. They would come from other concilios just to actually support, you know, whatever fundraising event. So people would, you know, if the Concilio Numero Uno had an event, and you were from this Concilio, you would go there, and that’s how they began to share [00:35:00] with each other in terms of support. So it was kind of like a tight-knit family based on 22 �this religious order, religious influence. So Jesus Rodriguez was one of those people that actually was one of the church leaders. JJ: [And?] helped to organize the -- CF: Yeah, he helped to organize the thing at St. Michael’s, but he was also involved in the archdiocese. They had a committee called the Spanish Speaking Committee, which is actually a part of the archdiocese, and what they would do is that they would train and give training to Puerto Ricans that came. I think they even provided in some cases housing for them to live there -- you know, they were like single men -- to live there. And, you know, just basically helped people make the transition from the island to here in terms of understanding how things function around here. Because a lot of these folks that came from Puerto Rico, man, came straight from the countryside. You know, probably didn’t even live in the city in there, [and from?] the island. So they came straight from the [00:36:00] countryside to this big, major city. And you could imagine, you know, being lost if you didn’t have the right orientation. JJ: Okay, so now this is people that really were not going to the grammar school. They were going to public school, but they were attending the mass, and a lot of the activities in the -- CF: Yeah, because the -- JJ: But what was going on inside -- go ahead. CF: No because, you know, back in -- I mean, I don’t think people really could have afforded to send their kids to Catholic school. The ones that did, you know, because if you look at the average family back in those days, you probably had 23 �families that -- it wasn’t just a boy and a girl. You had five, six, seven. And my situation was the same situation for a lot of people where, you know, your family was like your father and your mother, and you had like maybe four sisters and three brothers, so it was like six, seven, or eight of you. So what the father would do is that he would leave to come to Chicago or wherever it is he was [00:37:00] going to come to the United States because it was basically -- I mean, as far as they went west was Chicago. You know, they’d start out in New York and then they’d start exploring other areas, you know, like Cleveland, Philadelphia, east Chicago, Lorraine, Milwaukee. And so the father would come first, and then he would send for the mother. And once he got settled, he would send for the mother and maybe two or three kids. And then the other kids would stay with their grandparents. I was one of those. Me and my young sisters were raised by my grandparents. And then later, years later, then we actually came. And that was the story of a lot of us that, you know, that the father and the mother could not afford to bring all the kids, so they brought them piecemeal by piecemeal, one or two at a time. And so you had families with a lot of kids. It wasn’t this thing of birth control or controlling population. It was like, you know, they come as they pop. They come as they pop. And so you had large families, so a lot of families [00:38:00] either the kids, what they did as soon as they turned to a certain age that they could work, a lot of them would drop out of school and go work with their father or in the factory distributing. JJ: Were they encouraged to work? 24 �CF: Well I think that they were encouraged to work. You know, I think that -- I don’t know. A lot of people would say, “Well, you know, education’s the way out,” but I think that a lot of -- in terms of people were living in such poverty that every little dollar helped. So as soon as, you know, and so the kid who was already 14-, 15, 16-year-old who came here and went to school. I mean, I have photographs of my sisters being like eight, nine, ten years old, you know, I have a class picture of them. And being in the same classroom were kids that were like 13, 14 years of age. All in the same school. So you know, you’ve got a 13-, 14-year-old, and you’ve got them going to class with kids that are eight, nine, and ten years old, after a while that’s going to frustrate [00:39:00] a young kid. JJ: Why were they -- CF: Because of the fact that there was no bilingual programs, and you actually had all these Latino kids in the same classroom. I don’t know how it was done, but you had kids that were like 13, 14, 15. By the time they got to be 15, 16 years old and they were old enough to work, they would just go work, and the figure, you know, “School ain’t going to do nothing for me. I won’t be able to catch up.” Plus, a lot of these kids also came from the countryside. And you know, that whole thing of orientation of, you know, pursuing education, higher education, I don’t think it was in the minds of a lot of these kids. And their parents did not know what -- many of them didn’t even finish high school. Even grammar school. I know my mom went to school up to the third grade. So yeah, you know, people that were uneducated, who did not know, had no sort of idea, but a lot of the parents did. A lot of the parents pushed for [00:40:00] you know, “My kids are 25 �going to do better.” And they kept pushing, and did all they can to make sure that their kids got an education and went on to high school and on to college and so forth. And so some -- it paid off for some of us. JJ: And what about St. Michael’s? You said you went to St. Michael’s High School. What was the population there? CF: Well St. Michael’s High School when I was there was like -- I was there ’65, ’66. It was, you know, it wasn’t coed. It was boys and girls, and it was really integrated. It was Blacks, whites, you had, you know, the Italians from Taylor Street. You had Puerto Ricans that were coming from, you know, because it wasn’t just kids from the neighborhood. They would come in from different areas. So you had the white kids, you had Italian kids, you had Black kids that came in from Cabrini-Green, and so people who could afford to send their kids there would send them. Because they had a grammar school and they had a high school. And so [00:41:00] it was an integrated setting. JJ: Okay, now going back a little bit during Newberry and that -- because there were -- we talked about the social clubs, but there were also neighborhood clubs, right? At that time. CF: Well the social clubs were the neighborhood clubs. JJ: The social clubs were the neighborhood clubs. CF: Right. That’s what I was talking about. JJ: Didn’t they call them street clubs too? They were -- CF: Well, you know, you probably had these clubs that actually -- JJ: I’m talking about like the Caballeros and the -- 26 �CF: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You’re talking about the youth clubs. JJ: The youth clubs. CF: Yeah, the clubs that -- JJ: Those were different. CF: Yeah, those were different. Those were like made up of young youngsters -- JJ: And how did they form? How did they -- CF: Well, you know, you actually -- JJ: The Continentals, you were a member of -- CF: Right, right. The Continentals was a group of -- you know, basically it was a group of kids that hung out, you know, they hung out together, and they decided to form their own club. Now, we used to be the Continentals, and we used to hang out at Lincoln Boys Club. And, you know, it was [00:42:00] [Danny Rodriguez?], [Juan Columbus?], kids that hang out together and, you know, so Danny was one of the people that actually formed the Continentals, and it's kind of interesting because, you know, we used to identify each other with these sweaters. Our sweaters was kind of like the American flag. It was red, white, and blue, and we had an emblem, and the emblem meant something for something. So we used to -- it was kind of like an organized kind of thing where we had a youth worker from the Boys Club helping us organize ourselves, pay dues, bring in money, and raise money, buy our sweaters, do events, and so forth. So it’s kind of like a youth social organization. Then you had the YMCA where they had your group, the [Alloys?] were there. Then you had the older guys that -- and you know, I know a lot of people equate these guys with being 27 �gangs, but I used to call them clubs anyway. But then you had the older guys, which were the Black Eagles and the Paragons, and those guys, they formed because [00:43:00] of this thing of protection. They used to get beat up all the time, and they decided to form the groups, and they decided they were not going to take an ass whooping anymore. Because they used to get, you know, it used to be a lot of -- back in those days there was a thing with rumbles and, you know, knives and chains. It wasn’t this thing of automatic rifles and guns, and that’s how you get things done. You drive by and you shoot. Back in the days, none of us had cars. So you couldn’t do no drive-bys. JJ: Yeah, so you said that they were tired, they were not going to take this anymore. CF: Right, you know -- JJ: What were they tired of? CF: Well, you know, I think that there was a lot of conflict, you know, given the fact that we were moving into these communities that were already occupied by already other immigrants that had been here, Irish, Italians, Germans, and we’re coming into those neighborhoods because as we were coming in, a lot of them began to freak out. And they decided to do the white flight. You know, it was either Blacks or Puerto Ricans that were coming in, and they decided to move out. [00:44:00] But even the ones that stayed, actually they always felt that, you know, it’s like every immigrant’s got to shit on the next immigrant that comes over. And so, you know, a lot of these immigrants that, you know, that they went through the same shit that we went through. And even though we were American citizens, we went through the same experiences that a lot of immigrants went 28 �through. Back in those days, Puerto Ricans were being picked up and we were being held as immigrants because they didn’t have any papers. And, you know, we were getting treated the same when people realized and found out, “Well, these are Puerto Ricans. They are American citizens. They don’t need to have papers.” I mean, that’s documented for a fact, that a lot of Puerto Ricans actually experienced that. And they, you know, even though we’re American citizens, we got treated the same way as many of the immigrants are being treated today. So you had these things where, you know, the abuses, and you had -- and yet our parents would take that kind of stuff, and say, you know, “Don’t rock the boat. [00:45:00] We’ve come here to work,” or, you know, humble, quiet people. You know, they had that attitude. They didn’t want any trouble. But I think that the kids, you know, as soon as you became part of the -- and integrated into the society and began to form our little cliques and neighborhoods -JJ: And there were a lot of them. You mentioned several names. CF: Yeah, yeah, there was a lot of them. There were like the Latin Kings started, even though the Latin Kings had become a universal gang, you know, all over the country. But the Latin Kings started here, and they actually started, you know, in Humboldt Park west side. But back in our area, we had the Black Eagles and we had the Paragons. And those guys were kind of like older guys and, you know, we kind of looked up to them. But it was a thing that -- it’s not like today. Today you have this territory, and you had these, like, you know, “You don’t wear my color and I don’t wear yours.” There’s this whole thing about colors and so forth. But back in the days, [00:46:00] the older guys would look out for us, you know? 29 �And we actually couldn’t wait until we could be part of their thing. And so it was kind of like a family nucleus. JJ: So if you were in a different club, would they still would not fight against you? CF: They were not fighting against -- we’re not fighting against each other. I mean, the ones we were fighting against were the aggressive, you know, the white gangs, the Italian gangs. Like back in our neighborhood, we had that place called Roma’s, you know, Roma’s Pizzeria. And a lot of them white boys there, you know, they wanted to whip our asses and stuff, until the same thing that I was mentioning with the gypsies, they came out, and they would kick our asses. And then all of a sudden, we became the majority, and we actually had -- we shut them down. You know, they got shut down, and so -- but there was a lot of conflicts back in those days, so a lot of the guys actually formed these clubs in order to protect themselves. And they were not about to do, you know, like, take a slap in the face and keep on walking. They were just going to confront. And they were young people, you know? And young folks are not going to take that [00:47:00] crap, you know? You get this -- think that you will live forever and no one could ever mess with you, and that kind of a thing. So I think that that’s how that whole thing with the social clubs. Now every social club -- the Black Eagles had -- back in the days, that was the thing, the sweaters, you know? Everyone had a sweater. The Paragons had the sweater. I think that they had the same color you guys had. They were black and purple. And the Young Lords are like black and purple. They were what, black and pink? That was the Paragons? JJ: Yeah. 30 �CF: We had red, blue, and black. The Black Eagles were black and white. JJ: Your colors were what again? CF: Blue, red, and white, just like the American -- yeah, with the stripe. And you know, the sweaters were kind of cool. That was what identified us, when you went to, like, you went to dances and you went to sock hops, we would have our sweaters folded, you know. It was just an interesting kind of a situation which is totally different from -- JJ: But people were not fighting each other. CF: No, ain’t nobody -- nobody was fighting each other. JJ: And you had said, you know, fighting against -- so it was like a [00:48:00] fight against the whites. CF: The whites, the Italians, whoever was kind of messing. And then later on, it just got crazy, man. It just got crazy. You know, the drug thing came about. JJ: So what does that mean? What do you mean, the drug came about? CF: Well you know, I mean, I think that we all noticed it when all of a sudden the country, you know, when things got crazy in the ‘60s in this country, you know, and all of a sudden you just saw a lot of militancy and a lot of radical politics, and everybody was up in arms. And all of a sudden, you began to see this influx of drugs in the community, man. It’s like all of a sudden people started, you know, you started seeing people getting high on heroin. All of a sudden out of nowhere, the heroin was kind of like, you know, and wherever it is, I mean, there’s a lot of theories. JJ: Was there a lot of heroin going around at that time? Or was it just -- 31 �CF: Well, it came about. It came about that in the 19-- mid-’60s, [00:49:00] ’66, ’67, all of a sudden these communities began to see a lot of drugs going into the -- JJ: (inaudible) there’s an epidemic of cocaine, and at that time there was an epidemic of heroin. CF: Yeah, heroin. It was a lot of heroin that was going around. It was cheap. You know, people were doing it. They’re smoking marijuana. There was a lot of alcohol. But a lot of it that I think did the most damage was the heroin. The heroin actually, you know, caught up with a lot of people, and a lot of people just went in and never recovered from it. And so unfortunately, I used heroin at one time, you know, back in the days. And I am not ashamed to say it. But I actually -- I guess I must have some good angels that actually guided me in the right direction because I could have easily become hooked too. But I chose not to go that route. But I know a lot of folks that went that route, and they used -- JJ: Well you also had an education that helped, too. Now you went -- CF: To what? JJ: Through the [00:50:00] St. Michael’s, and then you went and got -- CF: Yeah, yeah. JJ: Then you went to college. CF: Yeah, I did. But you know, but my education -- JJ: In fact, what do you -- you have a master’s degree? CF: Yeah, I got a master’s. But I didn’t use any of that shit. I didn’t use any of my degrees. JJ: But that contributed. 32 �CF: Oh yeah, yeah. I actually, you know, my thing was that I didn’t get up at St. Michael’s was -- JJ: You don’t think it contributed at all? CF: What? JJ: You don’t think that helped you at all? CF: Oh, it helped me. Man, I’ll tell you where it helped me the most. When we were part of the program. I actually went to, you know, like to me, I am actually working on a theme right now. I have a writing -- creative writing group that meets once a week, and we’re working on a theme on freedom right now. And so I wrote a piece as the group leader saying, you know, trying to remember well what is the first time that I really sensed freedom? Because freedom, you know, some people’s freedom are other people’s burden. Because you’ve got someone saying that, you know, I’m going to free this country. I’m going to build a railroad, you know, all the way from here [00:51:00] to the end of San Francisco. But that means that -- who’s going to build that railroad? You’re going to build that railroad, you’re going to make the money, you’re going to exploit the workers, and you’re going to bring in work, and you’re going to give them like ten cents an hour or a nickel an hour. You’re going to exploit them. And they’re going to build the railroad for you. And you’re going to take all this glory. So you have the freedom to do whatever you want to do. You have the freedom to scam and to rip off people. And so I wrote a piece about my first taste of freedom. And my first taste of freedom was going to grammar school and being in the same classroom, you know, throughout the whole day. In the morning, you’d be in the 33 �same. Then when you go to high school, all of a sudden, you go to different classes. You get out and you go to woodshop, you go to gym, and just like being in college. You have that independence. So with me, it was great shit. You know, you get to go outside and go to lunch, woodshop, and then at the rest of the day I would be cutting class with the rest of my homies, you know. Be out there, “Y’all, come on. Let’s go. Let’s go hang out.” [00:52:00] And so that caught up with me. So I got kicked out of Waller High School, out of the public school. So I got another chance, and I went to St. Michael’s, and I also got kicked out of St. Michael’s because I actually told a story about me being a bully. I was a bully. I used to take, you know, all the little white kids, and I would say, you know, “Give me your money or I’ll kick your ass.” So I would take quarters and dimes. I was like the tough guy, you know? And I was a really bully. I mean, I am sure that people see me now -- I mean, I’m just like -- I’m going to be 63 years old. But if people see me now, and they see me on TV doing all the stuff that I do, I’m sure that some of those kids that I actually took their money from when I was in school are saying, “That son of a bitch took my money. He actually bullied my ass,” you know? So I used to bully these kids. And one time, you know, and I used to work. I used to have jobs working at Tom’s Shoe Store, like on weekends, so I was always dressed up really well, and had money. I mean, I always worked as a kid. You know, I worked washing windows or [00:53:00] doing whatever. And I remember one time this kid came to me and says -- I got into a thing with a kid in the classroom, and so I told this kid to pick up, you know, so kick him and he knocked the books over. And I told him to pick it up. “Pick up 34 �my book.” So this other kid who actually happened to be another tough kid who actually happened to probably be in another white gang, told the other kid, you know, “Don’t pick up shit for him.” And so I said, “Oh yeah? I’m going to talk to you later.” So we went out to lunch, and I slapped this kid. And this kid said, “I’m coming back tomorrow and I’m going to shoot your ass,” you know? So I said, “Oh yeah?” So I went and I got all the guys from the neighborhood, Richie, [Bobokin?], all the young kids that, you know, were looking for a fight. I said, “Hey man, this guy said he was going to shoot me. So you guys are going to come down.” (This is a story -- I don’t know if you ever heard it.) So I actually had all these guys come down from the neighborhood. Because back when I was in St. Michael’s High School, this was like ’67, ’66, [00:54:00] they all came, and they all came the next day to the school from Armitage and Halsted and Sheffield, and but the kid never showed up to class. So these guys were ready to fight. So as soon as they let school out, those guys started beating up everybody. They beat up the nuns. They beat up the priests, beat up the students. They just -- anybody would kick their ass. So everybody got whipped that day. And so the next day they brought me into the office and said, you know, “You’re lucky we don’t call the police on you because, you know, what happened here yesterday was pretty bad. And so what we’re going to do is we’re going to expel you. We’re going to kick you out of school.” And that was just another strike against me. And so I was running out of strikes. So then from there, I got an opportunity to go to Argonne National Laboratory. And Argonne National, that’s when we were all there. You and a bunch of us, and it’s kind of interesting 35 �because I was just talking about that this week, yesterday, in that group meeting, in terms of how [00:55:00] it was back in the days, how we were freaking out. Because they used to call us hardcore students. JJ: What was Argonne National Laboratory? CF: Argonne National Laboratory was the national laboratory – (dog barks) hey, stop. It’s in Lamont, and this is where they actually [spotted the Chicago?], part of the atomic – (dog barking) stop! Part of the atomic energy commission. This was like where they split the first atom, and this was a laboratory out in Lamont. And they have an atomic accelerator out there. So what they did is they actually -back in the days, in terms of providing opportunities to minorities, young minority students, they actually set up a program there to help students not only finish their GED but also to get them some kind of skills in terms of learning how to work. Learning to work. JJ: This was for at risk youths. CF: Yeah, for, you know, for at risk -- (dog barks) hey, stop! For, you know, youth that were at risk. [00:56:00] So a lot of us -- we were all at risk. As a matter of fact, they used to call us hardcore students, or hardcore people. You were there. And so what they did is they had all these, like, minority young people going out there. You had members of the Blackstone Rangers, the Disciples. As a matter of fact, the [peace to our nation disciples?] when they were out there, they were in peace. Because you know in Chicago, they were at war with each other. So there were us, you know, and so I know the scientists were going crazy because every time they looked out the window, they saw these, like, you know, young 36 �Blacks and Puerto Ricans with berets and with different color sweaters, and they were trying to figure, “What the hell is going on?” But I actually took advantage of that program, and what I did is I actually signed up to be in the photo department. So at 17 years old in the photo department, they took me under their wings, gave me a camera. You know, I used to wash prints as a job, and then in the afternoon I would take classes for GED. I know [00:57:00] a lot of you guys did a lot of different things. I heard stories about you guys sleeping in closets and shit like that when you were supposed to be working. But you guys were abusing your privilege. But (laughter) you guys were abusing your privilege, but I took advantage of it because I actually had an opportunity to learn the skill of photography. And what I did is they gave me a camera and gave me all this film, and it was like really, really nice folks who were there. JJ: Who was the president or the teacher? CF: Well, you know, the guy who used to run that whole program was Mike Lawson. He used to be the guy who was in charge of making sure that he coordinated -- JJ: And where did he come from, Mike Lawson? CF: Mike, you know, Mike was kind of like a social worker. He was probably involved with the church, and that’s how we met him. You know, he was a youth worker with folks out here. So that’s how you got us all -- JJ: I think you grabbed me [and pulled in?] or something. CF: Who? JJ: You or somebody who was -- 37 �CF: It was Danny, I think. Danny was the one that got all of us in that program. So there was a bunch of us, you know. [00:58:00] I had photographs in that place, you know. I remember [Sexto?] used to be in there. You, myself, Danny, and it was so weird because I know -- I don’t know, there was a couple of times where we missed our rides or our buses and we had to go down to [U Chicago?] and grab the bus there to go there. But sometimes there was this brother there, this African American guy who used to drive. He was not part of our program, but he used to give us a ride. And the guy, you know, like before he’d go, he’d take a couple of swigs of vodka, and he’d be driving on the road, and he’d be late. So he’d be driving on the exit ramp trying to beat the traffic. It was crazy. It was you know, like, being young and, you know, you get into all those adventures and stuff. JJ: But it was while we were trying to get our GEDs. CF: Yeah, we’re all trying to get our GED, and I think it helped me a lot because then what I did is I left that program, and then I turned to junior college, to Central [YMCA?] college, and I actually eventually got my GED. Because I was almost like three months before [00:59:00] grad. When I got kicked out, I was going to be graduating three months later. And right before graduation, I got kicked out. So, you know, I went to [U Central YMCA?], and then from there I transferred to Northern Illinois University. And from there I came back to the city, and I went to UIC. Got a BA, and then I got a master’s, a master’s degree in criminal justice. But I didn’t use any of that stuff. I actually just used the education and I moved on and did other things. 38 �JJ: Now, the Young Lords came out, you know, were like more [to the actual ones?] they were one of the groups in the neighborhood. But then they kind of transformed into a political group. And it was right around that time that they -you know what I’m talking about. CF: Right. Well, you know, back in the time, I mean, as you begin to get older, you begin to get an education, you begin to be exposed to a lot of different things, and you know, this is the time that, you know, we had people like Malcolm X. [01:00:00] We had people who actually were really rocking the boat, you know, and the whole country was in disarray. The hypocrisy of this country was coming out, and it was being put on display. People were just kind of like just reacting, you know. The youth were rebelling against their parents, and they were rebelling against, you know, the status quo. Black people wanted rights. The whole civil rights movement. It was a lot of stuff going on. And so that also touched us, because we were part -- you know, it wasn’t that we were, like, separate. You know, we also had our own issues that we were dealing with, and one of the issues that we were dealing with was this whole issue of being displaced, being in a community that we had lived there for a long time. Because you know what? I mean, I don’t hardly hear this anymore, but the whole phrase of the hood. The hood. That’s the way we used to identify our community. You know, we’re going, “I see you in the hood. I’ll be back.” You don’t see that anymore because I don’t think people really have those ties [01:01:00] with neighborhoods now. Nowadays, you know, it’s like a lot of these neighborhoods are very, you know, people will live -- they live there three or four years, and then 39 �they move on. So there’s never really that relationship that you develop as looking at your community, as being part of your family, part of your home, your house. And that’s the way we looked at our neighborhood. You know, our neighborhood was this kind of neighborhood that, you know, like I said, when we would see people, like, far away, we’re on a [picnic?] you’d say, “Hey, I’ll see you back in the hood. I’ll see you on the block,” you know? And we knew when we were talking about the block, we would be back in the neighborhood. So there was this, like, emotional, spiritual tie to the community. And so -- but it was great. It was a great -- I mean, I really loved growing up in Lincoln Park. It was really, truly integrated, even though the majority of the people, after a while, after the ’62, ’63, ’64, it became more predominantly Puerto Rican. [01:02:00] It was still an integrated community, but the loving thing about it is that it was kind of like a village. And the village was that everybody looked out for everybody. Everybody knew everybody. I remember, you know, if I did something, you know, Luis, the owner of the grocery store, would say, “I’m going to tell your dad.” And shit, when my dad got home, you know, like he’d say, “Come here. Luis told me you did this.” You know, like, “And you better, you know, you’re punished,” or whatever. So it was that kind of a thing where people look out for each other, and, you know, kids would be out there playing. You have all, you know, Adams Playground. You had the People’s Park. You had that little Bauler playground, the little playground down Halsted. It was called the Bauler Playground. You had Arnold Park. So you had all these little, you know, Oscar Meyer, we would hang 40 �out. So you know, there was a lot of baseball, a lot of recreation areas that we could hang out. And it was a great place to live in terms of -JJ: [01:03:00] So you’re painting -- I’m looking at geography now. So you’re talking about the Bauler Playground on Burling and Armitage? CF: Right, Burling and Armitage. JJ: And then the Oscar Meyer playground all the way on Clifton. CF: On Clifton. And then you had the Adams Playground, which is right south of -beyond St. Theresa. JJ: Beyond St. Theresa’s. And then you were talking about the Lincoln Park. CF: Then you had Lincoln Park, which is the bigger park. JJ: So this is a big area that we’re talking about. CF: Oh yeah, it was a big area. JJ: And that’s primarily Puerto Rican at that time. CF: That’s primarily Puerto Rican, and it was even extended all the way up to Wrigley Field, up in, you know, right around -- JJ: Addison. CF: Addison and Halsted and Clark. And so, you know, Lakeview, Addison [Bill?], which is called Addison [Bill?] today, was up, even up in that area. So, you know, Puerto Ricans had expanded in all these areas, and so, you know, it was really great. You know, at times you felt like this was your neighborhood, [01:04:00] and this is the way you ran, and then all of a sudden -- JJ: So you mean like the north side of Chicago. CF: Right. 41 �JJ: The north. CF: It was kind of like the mid-north of Chicago, and then, you know, all of a sudden lo and behold, there was a lot of things that were going on where the city was doing all this planning. You know, we’re definitely, you know, this would probably be in the era of the Black Panther party. This is part of the radical politics. And, you know, and then we’re beginning to see the consequences that were taking place as a result of realtors and developers and speculators coming in and buying up property, raising the rent, moving people out. And after a while, you know, we began to see that this is the plan. There was a plan of moving people out, and this is how the whole thing with the Young Lords came about. JJ: And so you also became active within the Young Lords. CF: Yeah, I became active. JJ: So a lot of the different groups, also -- CF: Yeah, but I -- JJ: Because that was the whole community. CF: Right. But I was already, you know, [01:05:00] in order to -- to be part of the Young Lords is the thing, because I know that you probably had to talk some of the guys into it. Because a lot of the guys were, you know, they had to be educated. A lot of the guys did not have the discipline -- did not have the discipline of knowing, you know, what this is all about. All they know is like, “Hey, who’s fucking with us? Let’s go kick their ass.” JJ: Exactly. 42 �CF: That’s how, you know, I would describe it. I would describe these guys, and they were not -- I mean, I was already had begun to, you know, by the fact that I was going to college, I had begun to get exposed to a lot of these, like, writers and philosophers and activists and all kinds of different politics. It was a really easy transition for me to get in. So, you know, I jumped on board. Actually -- JJ: Well you were saying that for the other people, it was more they were just there because they had been in the Young Lords. CF: They had been in the Young Lord gang -- JJ: And they were kind of following -- CF: The Young Lord Club, not the gang. The club. JJ: Oh yeah, the club. And then [01:06:00] so they’re following the club structure. CF: Exactly. JJ: And then that’s why they were able to stay involved through the construction, but we also had other Young Lords that were already politicized. CF: Right, right. You had some that were politicized (audio cuts out) those get to the other guys. Not everybody got it, because not everybody actually fell in the cliques. A lot of people said, “You guys are crazy. You know, they’re nuts. Let me just go back and hit my pipe, and I’ll be happy, you know, with what I’m doing.” But I think that a lot of folks actually decided to jump on board, and then there was other people that came and jumped on board because of the fact that they couldn’t believe what the hell we were doing. I mean, they couldn’t believe that, you know, even the -- I mean, when you read this history, you know, you had [penal elements?] coming from New York that actually are individuals that 43 �already, you know, college graduate or attending college or who had a totally different experience because the Puerto Rican experience in New York [01:07:00] is a longer experience because they began coming there at the turn of the century. And all of a sudden, you know, you keep hearing about these guys, the Young Lords. They’re taking over churches. They’re doing all this fighting and politicizing. And so, you know, a lot of people took notice. And so you began to attract people also that were involved in radical politics who also came and joined the group. JJ: What were some of the things that the Young Lords did there that -- CF: Well some of the things that the Young Lords did there -- well I remember, you know, they’re taking over this church because before the church was taken over, I used to work in the church. I used to be -- there used to be a program called the Joint Youth Development Corporation, and that was run by the city. And at the church, at the Armitage Methodist Church, [Mochito Alvez?] was kind of like the assistant director, so we had a little center there. And I used to run the recreational center, the gym, and [01:08:00] I had all these kids playing basketball. And so I was already involved and doing social programming, you know, in terms of athletics. And so I was young myself, and so I guess I got hired because I used to play baseball with Mochito, and he got me the job. And so that was in college. So but then the transition came where -- and I remember the reverends that were there. It was kind of interesting. They had a reverend who was Cuban. His name was Herrera I think. JJ: Sergio. 44 �CF: Sergio. Sergio Herrera. And it’s kind of interesting because his dad -- they were Cubans. They were Cuban immigrants that came, and they actually fled the whole thing that happened in Cuba with Castro. And I remember one year -- this was before the Young Lords. This was a story that there was this white guy who also got hired to -- JJ: You mean before the Young Lords were political. CF: Right, right, right. Before the Young Lords even took over this church. So we had this guy who was crazy. It was some white guy that actually [01:09:00] came in. He was an instructor. And I guess he was actually teaching kids about expression. So he actually told people, “I want you to go up to people, and when you go up in front of them, just start screaming. You know, ahh. You know.” So they went and did that to Sergio’s father, and I thought the old man was going to have a heart attack, you know? Because they all went and started going like that to the old man. But it was just kind of interesting the kind of events that were going there. It was just purely social, you know. I used to, like, have the kids play basketball. You know, I used to get films about baseball. So there was nothing really political, nothing out of the ordinary. Just like, you know, being another boy’s club, another YMCA. But then the Young Lords came and they took over. And I remember the painting of the murals. That was like very interesting because it was the first time that, you know, we changed some murals on the wall that represented revolutionary figures. [01:10:00] You know, you had Adelita, who was a Mexican revolutionary. You had Pancho Zapata, who was another one. You had Emeterio Betances, Albizu Campos, and Lolita Lebron 45 �who were like, you know, revolutionary symbols. And then the biggest symbol was when you entered the side door, you had a big picture of Che Guevara. And at the time the Che Guevara picture was painted on the wall, the Herreras were still living in that church. They were living there. And I know they freaked out. Because they left Cuba running away from, you know, from this Communist tyrant, supposedly the enemy of the people, and all of a sudden, you know, here they’re back facing, you know, the same situation. But some of the programs that were actually being offered at that church were like health programs. You know, there was a health clinic that was provided because at the time, you know, a lot of the folks, even though you had the Cook County Hospital, [01:11:00] there was really not a lot of health programs out there. You know, infant mortality was probably at a very high risk. So we were providing people at least with a basic examination, a basic –- yeah. JJ: If you can hold that thought for one second, the health program. Okay, I just did want to ask you about [Samuel Herrera?]. Because yeah, I believe he was transferred later to Los Angeles or something like that. But so there was a Cuban congregation, you were saying, also? CF: I don’t even know what the congregation was, because I never went to the church. JJ: But he was Cuban, and he had just -- and he fled Fidel Castro. CF: Right. He fled. JJ: Now, did he ever talk about that? 46 �CF: Nah, he never really -- he never really got into discussion with him. He was a very mild-mannered guy. He, you know, and I don’t think he really wanted to rock the boat either. Because I don’t think he ever got into confrontation with any of us. So he never really rocked the boat. He came out of that whole Methodist church thing. And again, he was also working with the late Bruce Johnson [01:12:00] back in the day. So I know -- I don’t know what kind of relationship they had. I know that he was very mild-mannered with me, and so we talked, but we never really talked politics. But I did know that his parents and himself came out of Cuba. And I think he probably had already been here, because he already spoke English. But his parents had just probably had just left Cuba because of the fact that, you know, what was going on there. JJ: Were there a lot of Cubans in that area? CF: I don’t know -- no, there was not a lot of Cubans in that area. No, there was not a lot of Cubans in that area. It was mostly Puerto Ricans and Mexicans. But mostly Puerto Ricans. Cubans were, you know, not that many. And I don’t even know what the congregation was because I never went to church there. JJ: Getting back, okay, you were talking about the health program? CF: Yeah, you know, one of the programs that we established was a health clinic, and so basically you had some interns that were at the County Hospital, some coalitions were made, [01:13:00] and so they were coming in. They were providing at least basic examination. If they needed to make a referral to the hospital, they would do that. And so that was one of the services that were being provided that was not being provided anywhere. Because the only way people 47 �would even have any access to health is if they went to a private doctor or they went to the hospital. And in some cases, if they had no insurance, you know. So they would end up going to the county, or unless they got real sick, that’s the only way they would go to a doctor. But it was none of this stuff to do any prevention, you know, health prevention. I think that we began that whole process of trying to get people to start understanding that, you know, health is an issue that we should be afforded in terms of the people. You know, because without health, you know, you really have nothing when you’re sick. So that was one of the issues that -- one of the programs that came out of that. JJ: And how much did the people have to pay to -- CF: As far as I remember, it was nothing, [01:14:00] and it was real interesting because what they did is they turned the -- they turned some of the little rooms, they turned into like examination rooms. Like up in the office, there was one examination room. There was another examination room downstairs. And so basically, that’s how people came in. They came in whenever, you know, the clinic was open. People would come in, and they’d bring their kids. Their kids were checked, and if they needed any additional treatment, then they would be referred to the county or to another clinic or to a doctor. But it was bringing that basic health facilities to people in the community, which was unheard of because in the past, you probably would have to go to the clinic or go to a doctor, or you didn’t know how you were going. So that was one of the programs. The other program was this breakfast program. It was short lived. I used to run that program. And that program was actually adopted after the Panthers breakfast 48 �program. And we actually would get up in the morning. I had my sisters [01:15:00] be part of that program. We actually ended up cooking pancakes, and we actually, you know, had maybe about 14, 15, 16 kids that would come in before school. And we would feed them, and then we would actually not -- we would not give them any heavy dosage political classes. We would just do things like, for example, I would bring a map, and I would ask them, “Where in Puerto Rico is your family from?” “Oh, from Arecibo.” “Go up to the map and show us where Arecibo is.” You know, just real basic stuff in terms of creating conscious in terms of who they were as Puerto Ricans, right? And so that was that. The other thing that we also -JJ: I remember we would have crossing guards and all that. CF: The what? JJ: Crossing guards for the kids. CF: Well there was a crossing guard because the kids would stop in right before school. So they would be there like around 7:30. JJ: So the Young Lords would be the crossing guards. CF: We would be crossing -- make sure the kids got to the school because [01:16:00] they would have to go to either Arnold, or they would go to the other grammar schools in the area. So they would come in and get their breakfast. Then the other program was there was this relationship with the [people at the law office?] which actually opened at the same time. And so you would actually -- when everyone had a legal case, you would also refer them to the law clinic. So you 49 �know, there were some services that were being provided to folks in that community. JJ: And who was funding the Young Lords at that time? CF: Funding the Young Lords? Shit. You know, to be honest, that’s a good question. I think they were just getting funding from grassroots people. You know, we’re not getting -- there was no government funding. It was no, you know, no philanthropists were giving us, no foundations were giving us money. It was money that was coming in. I remember one time that we actually got donations because I mean, I still -- I think I still probably have letters [just towards?] the end of the Young Lords, [01:17:00] we actually were asking for donations of food. And I remember one time there was a company that brought in thousands, you know, a bunch of boxes of cereals, man. I don’t know if you remember that. And we had to get rid of that cereal because the rats were breaking into the boxes. And we had to start giving the cereals away. But we were getting like donations from stores, and dollars. And one time I even, you know, was the treasurer of the organization, holding onto all the money. Because what happened was that after a while, you know, our organization -- JJ: You’re the one that took the money, there? CF: I was the one that took the money, but I had to fight with a lot of you guys because everybody wanted money. So my thing was that after a while, things began to get a little shady because of all the repression that was coming down, and all the people getting arrested. JJ: What kind of repression? What do you mean? 50 �CF: Police aggression, you know. We were actually always being watched. It was always police cars parked. They were always taking notes. They were always watching. There was a lot of, [01:18:00] you know, confrontations with the police, and so what happened, every time that someone got arrested, we would have to go out there and try to get money to bail folks out of prison. That was the one way of how they neutralized the whole organization by actually continuing to have confrontation, arresting people, and, you know, having people arrested. And what happened to the point where a lot of people went underground, and I think you were one of those folks, is that you never, you know, kept your court dates. And so actually what they did is they issued fugitive arrest warrants for you guys for not showing up. And so you guys had to go underground, and that’s how the whole organization got neutralized and it got put out through that process. And you know, so you actually analyze all that, that how do you actually eliminate an organization is that you keep arresting the leadership and you neutralize the leadership, and the whole organization -- cut the head, and the rest of the organization just dies. [01:19:00] And so that’s what happened back in the days. You know, there was confrontations with the police all the time, you know. Even though, I mean, I heard stories about people throwing like, you know, we used to fight with water balloons. I mean, people on top of the church throwing water balloons at the cops. Somebody told me a story that they remember. I think when the church was taken over, they were throwing water balloons at the cops from the church. JJ: I don’t remember that. 51 �CF: Somebody told me that. They had some videos on that. But I never -- they never materialized. But those were some of the issues that -- the other interesting thing about this is that you had, you know, there was this whole movement of like there was the political representation, the aldermen and all the other folks that were in the city, who were actually demonizing us. You know, they actually -- I mean, because that’s another tactic of, you know, you’re either [01:20:00] with us, or you’re against us. And so if you’re against us, then we have to, like, demonize you. We have to make you look like you’re terrible people, that you’re going to cause harm to us, you’re going to cause harm to our neighborhood, our society. So there, you know, was all this fearmongering, or mongers going out and creating fear within the neighborhood. You know, like the aldermen, you know, was actually trying to pass ordinance trying to make sure that more repression or more laws or rules be placed against us because of, you know, like loitering rules and loitering laws. Because they kept saying that we were criminals. But in reality, how can you be a criminal? We are kids that grew up in their neighborhood. The people that live in their neighborhood are our families. So how is that family going to be afraid of us? Which was a key thing. That’s what backfired on them. So they could have actually continued this campaign of trying to discredit us, but, you know, we were part of that neighborhood. You know, people would know who we were. [01:21:00] It wasn’t like we just, you know, came from another planet and planted ourselves in that community to try to make changes. We were a part of growing up, and growing up in a community, and actually reacting to some of the consequences that were 52 �going on. And that was that whole gentrification and displacement process that began to happen. And that’s how, you know, you begin to get politicized with how the organization begins. And I think you started this thing when we came out of prison, and got this education, and then you tried to get everybody else on board. So that was the lesson to be learned. It was a short-lived lesson, but again, it was a life lesson. You know, and my life lesson is I tell people, “There’s nothing you can’t do if you were to put your mind to it,” you know? And you know, when I go out and I talk to young people, I mean, you know, you try to give kids an inspiration about what we did back in the days. Because nowadays, you know, [01:22:00] you’ve got all these organizations, and you’ve got all these groups, and there’s also things that you can fall back on, you know, so you’re not out there by yourself. I mean, we were out there. It was just us. And it wasn’t, you know, we were really faced with danger. I mean, some of our people were killed. It wasn’t a game. You know, the cops were serious. They was, you know, like the mayor, the order was shoot to kill. They were shooting to kill. You know, and they were not, you know, the majority of the police department were mostly whites. And they used to practice, you know, the tactics that were like very oppressive. They would pick up, you know, some of our guys and would actually drop them off in neighborhoods where the white gangs were. You know, they were doing this stuff all the time. And you know, I get it. That was making a comment with people, you know, needing to learn and to know about their history. A lot of these police officers and firemen that we had in the city department -- as a matter of fact, the new fire chief that just got appointed 53 �[01:23:00] fire chief in Chicago, he’s this Puerto Rican guy that’s been on the force for a long time. But, you know, back in the days, there were no Puerto Ricans. You know, hardly any Blacks in the fire department and the police department. They even had an age requirement, a height requirement, that to be a policeman you had to be a certain height. That was discriminatory because height has nothing to do with whether or not you can do the job or not. And it was just another obstacle from keeping us, in terms of being involved in the process, because if you look at a lot of Puerto Ricans and Latinos, we’re not tall. We’re short people. And so that whole requirement was fought, and it was fought hard. And people went to prison. People, you know, shed their blood. People shed their lives so we could open some doors to let folks like the guys that are on the police department and the fire department today. So a lot of these guys think that because they’re named Rodriguez and they’re good looking and they got a job on their own [01:24:00] they don’t understand that people fought for them to have their jobs, and they need to take that into account and appreciate what was being done back as a result of our movement, of our struggles, to open the doors for them. So. JJ: Okay. Later on, you were also involved with the whole question of AfroCaribbean, Puerto Rican -- CF: Yeah. I did. I mean, I think that the, you know, I wanted to -- JJ: And what are the other things -- CF: Yeah, well, you know, I went to school to -- I went to UIC -- JJ: (inaudible) 54 �CF: I went to UIC and I got a master’s, and I was out there, you know, trying to figure out what was the best for me. I even went to law school for like a year and a half at DePaul. That didn’t work out. I went and got a master’s in criminal justice. That didn’t work out. But I had already been to school, man. [01:25:00] I had already been exposed to that whole political process, that whole thing of radical politics and being involved, and being a radical myself. And so that drove me to who I am today in terms of dedicating my life to making sure that you fight discrimination, you fight exclusion, you fight all the oppression and all the things that keep people back. So, you know, throughout my whole career, I mean, I actually -- when I went to UIC, I actually got arrested with a bunch of folks, like 40 of us got arrested because we took over the president’s office. This is like right after the Young Lords. I had already started going to college, and I remember going -- me and [Scott Lopez?], [Rory Guerra?], [Rudy Lozano?], [Danny Solizo?], the aldermen, [01:26:00] got [Roberto Torres?], there was a bunch of us, like 40 of us. We went to meet with the president of the U of I, and we decided we ain’t going nowhere until we get a commitment from you that you’re going to, you know, recruit more Latinos in the school. Because we were there, but we wanted to make sure that when we left that there would be more people behind us. Because that was the whole thought process, you know? We tear the doors down, and we keep the doors open. And so the whole concept behind that whole boycott, that was I think in 1973 that we got arrested, was to make sure that the school would actually have a program that would recruit other Latinos. As a result of that, there’s a program called LARES, which is called the 55 �Latin American Recruitment Education Program at U of I. And it’s been there. It came out as a result of that struggle. So, you know, our actions have resulted in some positive things. So it wasn’t all done in vain. So everywhere I went, you know, I actually got involved. [01:27:00] You know, when I was in law school, we had a thing called the Latino Law Student Association, doing the same thing again. You know, we’re here, but if we make it fine, but we’ve got to keep that door open. And the doors have been maintained open. At least they tried to close it, but we actually had a little crack that, you know, it’s not closed all the way. And so I think a lot of, you know, a lot of people, a lot of people that went to law school, a lot of people that got degrees should understand that at one time, there was a lot of racism and discrimination that wouldn’t allow for them to go, you know, to go to school and to take advantage of those educational opportunities that are out there. So I kind of want to feel that I’m one of those that have, you know, that have contributed to making sure that these institutions, you know, have taken place. Like institutions like ASPIRA and [01:28:00] other groups that actually flourished afterwards. So it has, you know, it has been a thing, you know, where either I have actually got involved with the -- I went to work for the Equal Opportunity Employment Commission after I went to -- got out of college. And there, I fought, you know, we were fighting employment discrimination under Title 7, and so I actually went into government (audio cuts out) [us to get?], to fight racism under employment discrimination. And that was - and I did about ten years of that, but I was always involved with stuff that I was learning. I would always come back to the community and say, “We could do 56 �this. We could do that.” Got involved, during the time I was working with the commission, got involved in the Harold Washington campaign, which is an interesting, interesting thing. I mean, I was like -- I mean that was kind of like the highlight of this whole issue where we actually just turned this whole city upside down and created history by electing the first Black mayor of the city. And that was a hell of an experience of [01:29:00] being with that. And I remember when Harold got elected, when he won the primary, it was like -- it was an interesting thing because I remember working out of an office on Kinzie. Francisco DuPrey was there, [Antonio Delgado?], it was a bunch of us, and I remember everybody left the office the night of the primary, and you know, Jane Byrne had some gangbangers working, you know, with this guy [Correa?], and, you know, had some folks. And you know, I thought we were going to get shot one time, you know, because it was me and about three or four of us left. Everybody had gone to the primary party down at the McCormick, and these guys walked in. And you know, for a moment they got really scared that, you know, that these guys were going to retaliate. But -- because that, you know, they looked at it from the point of view of, you know, it’s us against them. You know, they didn’t see it as a political thing. It’s like, “Our guy lost, and now we’re going to shoot you.” You know, that kind of a thing. [01:30:00] So -- but that in itself was an interesting -- I mean, it was like the euphoria that was in the air, I’ve never seen it, you know, people in the street hugging, and people that didn’t know each other. I mean, it was really a sense of a great victory that actually came down. And as a result, we began to take advantage of it, you know. I know you gave one of your 57 �speeches. I remember seeing you up there at the Puerto Rican parade on the Harold Washington -JJ: I introduced Harold -- CF: Yeah, when you came and you gave an address, and you were talking about the Sandinistas, and I was saying, “Shit.” You know, I tried to, you know, we’re like talking, you know, this is a community festival, and he’s over there talking about oppression and the Sandinistas, and it’s because that was, you know, the time the Sandinistas were also there. So yeah, that was kind of -- JJ: You were in the audience? CF: I was in the audience, because that was -- I was in the audience, and I was like -- JJ: How was that? I mean, how was that -- CF: Oh no, it was well received. You know, it was well received. The whole thing with Harold being there. JJ: And everybody was wearing buttons, the Young Lords. CF: [01:31:00] Everybody was wearing the Young Lords button. I remember that Willie Colon or Tito Puente was the guy -- JJ: Willie Colon. CF: It was Willie Colon that was actually presented there, and so it was a hell of a thing. But we actually began to get involved. We got involved on, you know, I became a member of the Latino Commission. Through that, we began doing all kinds of different hearings. We got this whole program on infant mortality in the community. We began, you know, challenging resources into our community. We began to open doors for people to get into the political process, where people 58 �today, you know, are now congresspeople. They’re aldermen. One guy, he used to be the head of the commission just finished running for mayor in Chicago after being a state senator. So there was a bunch of us that actually took advantage, who had been involved in this whole struggle that actually became involved and just took it to another level and began to start heading departments [01:32:00] and getting involved in terms of creating things in the community, you know, like the Humbolt Park Vocational Center became one of those things that you actually brought to the community. So we began to actually open doors so people could begin to start taking, participating in the process. But that all comes from that Young Lords experience, that beginning way back then. So. JJ: Any final thoughts? Anything you want to -- CF: I don’t know what else the hell I could say, man. Besides the fact that I’m still fighting out here. You know, like, you know, because at this time I tell people, “Man, I should be right now, I just turned 63. I should be somewhere in a rocking chair, you know, drinking like coconut water out of a coconut.” But shit, the struggles continues, man. There’s always -- there’s never -- you know, not only you have to fight, you know, the other forces, but now, you know, my biggest force or now my biggest enemy is my own people. Because now you’ve got a bunch of folks [01:33:00] that are now they have the name of [Miguel Juan?] and [Rosario?] and they’re like the worst because what they did is they learned -they get elected, and then they go on and they learn to become politicians. And all they do is they only look out for their own selves or their own hidden agendas. And so the [dumb folks?], in a way, have kind of created an obstacle, even 59 �though they do talk about that they’re there for the people. They’re there for themselves, and they’re there for their bosses, you know, the political bosses. And so they take orders, marching orders, from the folks. And so, you know, unfortunately, you know, back in the days in this community, when we had politicians by the name of Pucinski, [Holowishka?], and I think I made this comment before, we had a community. All of a sudden, you know, we actually elect people by the name of Juan, Maria, and José, and our community is gone. You know, we’ve been displaced. Everything has been totally, been gentrified. You know, even today, [01:34:00] in the year 2012, the community I live right now, I’m probably the last of the Mohicans living on my block. This used to be all Puerto Rican in [Lincoln?] Park. And the same thing with Humboldt Park. That’s gone. You know, just about. Puerto Ricans have scattered all over the city and gone back to the suburbs. They’ve gone back to other neighborhoods. So the whole process of gentrification still goes on. I just don’t think that you have that kind of a movement that we had back in the days -- at least a movement that unifies everybody for the same cause. You’ve got folks out here that are running organizations, that are actually projecting and focusing on their own hidden agendas. You’ve got political figures out here who take orders from the Democratic organization who are sometimes probably our own worst enemies. And you’ve got folks that actually are cutting deals and doing things for themselves, and not, you know -- so the community has grown [01:35:00] really, really fast. But I don’t think that you have the same kind of issues back in the day. I’m still getting with issues. I mean, my latest issue has been this issue of 60 �given the fact that one out of every four Latino is someone of African descent, you know, my thing has always been -- and I’ve been fighting this for the last two decades -- is, you know, we always talk about, “Well, no, in my country there’s no discrimination. We all get along.” You know, it’s like -- but if you really look at it, you know, Black folks, Afro-Latinos, people of African descent that are Latinos had been ignored and had been treated like invisible people when we’ve been here all along from day one. We built this damn country. We built the infrastructure. And they got free labor not only here in this country but everywhere. In Mexico, everywhere. They brought all these Black folks to come in because of the fact that the Indians couldn’t cut it, so they had to bring in some labor to, you know, dig up not only [01:36:00] the sugar and the stuff. They were looking for that gold. So they actually brought in some heavy folks. So you know all this time they’ve been treating us as we don’t exist and that we haven’t contributed to anything. But we’ve done, and we made a lot of contributions, and so my biggest fight right now is in trying to get people to acknowledge those contributions and to begin to treat us with the respect that we deserve to be treated like, as Black people. And so, you know, one of the things that really bothers me is this whole image of what a Latino looks like. When you look at the media, and I get sick and tired of looking at the damn TV because every time you look at Spanish TV, even the American commercials, and they portray a Latino, we all look the same. We all look like you, Cha-Cha. We need, you know, real Black people. Like you look like a white boy. You look like a -- you look like a white boy. You know, all these, like, white-looking people. There’s no one ever 61 �that looks like me on TV unless you look at a reality show. Then you begin [01:37:00] to see. JJ: My mother told me I was going to be a lawyer. Okay. CF: Yeah, okay. Yeah. Well -- but that’s one of the biggest things right now. So that’s actually taken a lot -- gotten a lot of steam, and I go around and I talk to people, and I, you know, people, you know, all of a sudden, you know, you’ve got people talking about the relationship between African Americans and Latinos. Well hell, their relationship has always existed. Ain’t nothing new. You know, if you really, really, really -- you know, even the whole issue of Marcus Garvey and Arturo Alfonso Schomburg back in the mid -- the last century, you had all these relationships that existed between Latinos and African Americans, and so we just have to explore and look at our history, and basically that’s what we did. But I’m done, bro. JJ: I appreciate it. END OF VIDEO FILE 62 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ceae7017cfbea99f450ab72b953d1483.mp4 2ed86ff96f452dc475ba5cc13e822a39 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Carlos Flores vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Chicago (Ill.)--Política y gobierno--1951- Artes, Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago Renovación urbana--Illinois--Chicago Relaciones raciales Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Flores_Carlos Title A name given to the resource Carlos Flores video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Flores, Carlos Description An account of the resource Carlos Flores is a cultural activist who lived at La Salle and Superior in the La Clark barrio, growing up on Armitage Avenue. He takes pride in relating that his family was “the last of the Puerto Ricans to leave Lincoln Park” and recalls life in Lincoln Park which included his share of minor street battles as a teen member of the Continentals Social Club. Mr. Flores also fought for Puerto Ricans as a full fledged member of the Young Lords. Mr. Flores served on the Chicago Mayor’s Advisory Council on Latino Affairs, under Harold Washington. This council was first set up in 1983 by the Young Lords and four other Latino representative organizations city-wide soon after Harold Washington was elected the first African American mayor in Chicago history. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Chicago (Ill.)--Politics and government--1951- Arts, Puerto Rican--Illinois--Chicago Urban renewal--Illinois--Chicago Race relations Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-29 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1abecdfb3c2ebd2b17bedf9029158412.pdf d76f00d0cb703ce18ba3ad0df2e62b90 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Diego A. Figueroa, Sr. Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 8/25/2012 Runtime: 01:26:18 Biography and Description Oral history of Diego A. Figueroa, Sr., interviewed by “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on August 25, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/25ddd2072bd576c027caf6d69d62a45e.mp4 b64517e76ebf0967788e5e05932a418e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Diego Figuearoa, Sr. vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Diego Figuearoa, Sr., entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 8/25/2012 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Figueroa_Sr_Diego Title A name given to the resource Diego Figuearoa, Sr. video interview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Figueroa, Sr, Diego Description An account of the resource Oral history of Diego Figuearoa, Sr., interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 8/25/2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-08-25 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/46fe1fe8e247e0e8cd1558b259bcf0dc.pdf ee530286b2b53c1653d0d76d76feec51 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Diego A. Figueroa, Jr. Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 8/25/2012 Runtime: 03:23:36 Biography and Description Oral history of Diego A. Figueroa, Jr., interviewed by “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on August 25, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, Diego. If you could give me your name, date of birth, and where you were born. DIEGO FIGUEROA JR.: My name is Diego Antonio Figuero, Jr. And my date of birth is April 12, 1955, and I was born in Ciales, Puerto Rico. JJ: Ciales, Puerto Rico. And where is Ciales in Puerto Rico? Is it -- DF Jr.: Ciales is right in the center of the island, right in the center. JJ: Right in the center? DF Jr.: Right south of Manatí. JJ: And is it a big town or -- DF Jr.: No, you can go through it in two minutes. It’s a really small town. So, you go through the town pretty quick. JJ: And what’s your mother and father’s name? DF Jr.: Name? JJ: Yeah. DF Jr.: My mom’s name is [Ramonita Villalobos?] and my father’s name is Diego Figueroa. [00:01:00] JJ: Okay. And they’re both from there, from Ciales? DF Jr.: They’re both from Ciales. My mom is from town, and my dad is from the country -- up in the country. JJ: Okay. What about brothers and sisters? DF Jr.: I’ve got two sisters. 1 �JJ: And what’s their names? DF Jr.: The second oldest -- I’m the oldest -- the second oldest is [Yvette Figueroa?] and my little sister [Alba Figueroa?] -- she’s not with us anymore. But she’s the youngest. JJ: Did you mention your brothers or no? DF Jr.: No brothers. JJ: No brothers, just two sisters. And what type of work did they do? DF Jr.: My sister Yvette -- right now she is like an -- she works in the operating room [00:02:00] -- not room -- outpatient surgery type secretary. JJ: Okay. So, she works for a doctor. DF Jr.: She works at the hospital, yeah. JJ: At the hospital? And your other sister? DF Jr.: My little sister -- before she died she -JJ: Oh, okay. I’m sorry. DF Jr.: She worked in the cashier office at the hospital. JJ: And what kind of work do you do? DF Jr.: I’m a security sergeant right now. JJ: And your father came from the country. DF Jr.: My father -- actually, my dad -JJ: What was his name again? DF Jr.: [Diego Figueroa Reyes?]. My dad -- at first, as a young 16 year old, he joined the national guards. He lied. He lied to get on there because he wanted to join. His mom signed the papers for him to join. [00:03:00] And that was when Cuba - 2 �- I mean, the communists wanted to take over Puerto Rico. So, my dad saw a lot of that in Puerto Rico when he joined. But after that, he went to Korea, and he was the youngest sergeant to be promoted because he lied about his age in the first place. They thought he was older. You know? He was a pretty young sergeant. And of course in Korea, he got his rank in the war. So, somebody would die, they’d promote my dad. Next guy would die, they’d promote my dad. So, he got promoted pretty quick. If you listen to his stories, a lot of his friends died in Korea, some in his arms. [00:04:00] He had a friend that died in his arms. So, he went through a lot in Korea. Of course, when he came back home, they gave him a hard time here -- in Kentucky where he was stationed at the base there because he didn’t really -- they wanted him to take tests to keep his rank. So, they would look for anything to demote him. Like my dad was beating on the base, they took a stripe away from him because he was Hispanic and they didn’t like that. They didn’t like that he was Hispanic and higher than them, in a sense. JJ: But he actually was part of a special group, right? DF Jr.: Yeah. He was. He was a special group of Puerto Ricans in Korea that were called the Borinqueneers. And [00:05:00] he could tell you some good stories of the Borinqueneers. They all had mustaches, for one. At one point he told me a story where the top captains or general -- he wanted all the Puerto Ricans, all the Borinqueneers to shave their mustaches. He said, “Man, we were all crying.” They were all crying because ever since they were little kids, ever since they were teenagers, they always had mustaches. They never shaved them. All of us, when we grew up, we grew up with a mustache. It was always -- we were 3 �like born with a mustache. You know? He was telling me, “As they cut mine -yeah, they made us shave our mustaches.” Actually, there was a group of them called -- I forget what the name of the group was. But it was a certain -- they knew their name of the group by the mustaches. I forget what it was called. He could tell you. JJ: What was the distinction? I mean, they were just -- DF Jr.: That was in Korea. Yeah. That was in Korea. They fought a lot of different battles, different hills that they attacked. JJ: And then, you went to the service too? DF Jr.: No, no. As a child, I grew up -- of course, my dad was in the military. But you grew up seeing all the army movies, playing with all the little soldiers and stuff. No, I was planning to join after high school, but I never joined. JJ: So, did you go to school at all in Puerto Rico? DF Jr.: No, no, I’ve always been -- I came here when I was three years old, 1958 I came here. JJ: And where was the first place that you lived? DF Jr.: We lived -- actually we lived on Racine and Newport, [00:07:00] up here, up north. And we lived with another family from Puerto Rico. So, we lived in the same apartment together, as far as my dad told me. I don’t remember that, but that’s what he told me. JJ: In ’58. I see. And so, what was the neighborhood like at that time when you were here? I mean, it was up here, up north. 4 �DF Jr.: I don’t remember. I don’t remember the -- I mean, I’ve driven by there because we lived up here north. But I don’t remember as a child what it was back then up here. JJ: When did you first begin to remember? DF Jr.: As a child? JJ: Recollections (inaudible). DF Jr.: Well, back when we moved to Armitage, when we moved to Kenmore Street, I was already eight. JJ: You remember Kenmore and Armitage? DF Jr.: I remembered it. JJ: And what do you remember there growing up? What school were you going to then? [00:08:00] DF Jr.: I was going to Mulligan Elementary School right there on Sheffield and Wisconsin. And I think it was in third grade. JJ: So, third grade. And what year was it then? DF Jr.: That’d be ’58. JJ: Was it ’58? DF Jr.: No, no, because, ’60 -JJ: Well, you were born in ’55, so it had to be like ’60 -- DF Jr.: Sixty-three. JJ: Sixty-three? DF Jr.: Yeah, ’63. JJ: Oh, you were -- ’63 -- okay, I was in eighth grade then. 5 �DF Jr.: Yeah. So, ’63, I was in second grade -- or third grade. JJ: And you were going to Mulligan. DF Jr.: Mulligan. JJ: So, by that time, there were more Puerto Ricans though on Kenmore, no? DF Jr.: It was a lot of Blacks, a lot of Blacks on Mulligan. JJ: The school was on Mulligan, yeah, you’re right. DF Jr.: It was still a little -- as a child, it was hard growing up going to school on Mulligan because there was a lot of Blacks there. JJ: So, there were problems with the Blacks and everything? DF Jr.: Oh, yeah, sure. Big problems. They were always [00:09:00] -- you know, we were the minority back then. Being a white, you could say -- even though we were Hispanic. And of course, as kids, we were confused because we were white and -- I mean, we were Hispanic, but yet, to some people, we were white. JJ: And now, ’63 -- because around that time -- but you were in only in third grade. DF Jr.: Yeah. Around that time was when Kennedy died. That was a big -- that was pretty rough back then. JJ: Did you have any problems from any of the other races? DF Jr.: Well, yeah, yeah, we had our problems with the white kids because we were Puerto Ricans. So, we had our challenges with both nationalities, the Blacks, the white kids, being in between, it was rough. JJ: Do you recall [00:10:00] any groups or anything at that time, the name of them? I know you were still young then. Or later on, do you recall any groups? 6 �DF Jr.: Oh, yeah, yeah. When we got to high school, of course, in the ’60s there was always the Black groups, the Assassins, the Blackstone Rangers, which of course -- the Black Assassins that went to [Waller?] that I remember. Of course, we had the Panthers that we heard about, as for Black gangs. But in high school -JJ: What about the Puerto Ricans? Did they have any groups? DF Jr.: Puerto Ricans -- I remember early in my childhood, we grew up with the Majestic Lords, of course. Of course, back then -- then we changed the names to Latin Kings. [00:11:00] And then, of course, there were other groups, the Young Lords, Kenmore Gents, the Harrison Gents, the Latin Saints were around back then. Of course, we had our ups and downs with the Kings. So, we had our problems with them too growing up. JJ: But you weren’t in any group though were you? DF Jr.: We were in the Majestic Lords. We were the Majestic Lords, and then, we were Latin Kings. JJ: Oh, you were Majestic Lords and Latin Kings? DF Jr.: Yeah, we were Majestic Lords. JJ: (inaudible) DF Jr.: We were at -- where were we at? On Dayton and Wisconsin? I think we were -remember when the boys -- they had a little boys club there. JJ: Oh, over by Willow and Vernon. (inaudible) DF Jr.: No, no, no. That was the Latin Saints. [00:12:00] Over this way towards Fremont and Wisconsin, there was a little boys club there. That’s where we used 7 �to hang out. It had a little pool table inside there and stuff. It was right on the corner. We used to have our meetings there. JJ: Right. I remember that. So, [Mango?] and [Yanna?] was working there or something like that? DF Jr.: I don’t remember. I was a little kid (inaudible). JJ: They were doing some -- reaching out to youth at that time. DF Jr.: They were. They were helping us. They would take us swimming. They would try to get us to get off the streets and stuff. JJ: Yeah. You want to stop for a second? DF Jr.: Yeah, let’s stop. (break in video) JJ: Whenever you’re ready. DF Jr.: The youth center -- I remember hanging out there as a kid. They used to take us swimming. It was [00:13:00] a time when they wanted to help us stay off the streets, sort of. It was really good. It kept us off the streets. JJ: You mentioned the Paragons and some of these other groups. DF Jr.: I remember the Paragons. I remember the Trojans back then. JJ: Because they were actually by Wisconsin and Halsted. So, they were right in that area where you’re talking about. DF Jr.: Well, as I got older, we moved to Armitage and Bissell. We went from Kenmore and Armitage to Sheffield and Armitage to Kenmore -- I mean, to Bissell and Armitage. Most of our lives we spent there. JJ: On Bissell and Armitage? 8 �DF Jr.: Right. JJ: So, right around what year? It doesn’t matter. So, basically around ’61, ’62? DF Jr.: Yeah, from that time until [00:14:00] ’70 -- you know, ’74, when I got married because we lived on top of Shinnicks on the top floor of Shinnicks. JJ: The drug store Shinnicks. DF Jr.: Yeah. We were on one corner. Then, we crossed the street to the other corner. And we lived on both tops, you know, the third floors. So, I didn’t leave out of there until I got married in ’75. JJ: Okay. So, were there other Puerto Ricans there? DF Jr.: Oh, yeah, yeah. There were a lot of Puerto Ricans there. Yeah, sure, all over the place. On Armitage, on Bissell. Of course, the [Medinas?], you know, were all over Bissell. They owned Bissell. The mayor of Bissell Street was Medinas. But [Lulu?] -- was it [Lulu Medina?]? Well, you know, the Medina from -- got married to Shinnicks. [00:15:00] One of the -- her dad was -- he owned all the property down Bissell Street. JJ: He owned all the property down there? DF Jr.: They called him mayor, the mayor. JJ: Mayor of Bissell between -- south of Armitage. DF Jr.: Yeah, south of Armitage to Wisconsin and up north of Wisconsin to -JJ: You mentioned downtown store and upstairs, the [Bolero?] Club? DF Jr.: We had the Bolero Club downstairs. JJ: Who was there that (inaudible)? 9 �DF Jr.: Well, when that was there, the Trojans were there in that corner, some of the older Trojans, a lot of drug traffic in that corner. We used to see a lot of the guys in the back doing drugs, shooting up. So, it was a -JJ: What year was this? DF Jr.: It had to be in the late ’60s, ’68, ’69. JJ: That’s when the drugs [00:16:00] started coming. Right after -- ’70s. It was in the late ’60s, ’70s. That’s when the drugs came. DF Jr.: That was a tough time there on that corner. JJ: So, you came when that happened. DF Jr.: We were living upstairs already. Right. We were living upstairs. JJ: Oh, yeah, because it’s right on Bissell. And then, under the tracks is where they were getting drugs. DF Jr.: Exactly, right. Because that whole are changed. JJ: So, they started at [Halsted and Lincoln?] and Armitage. So, by the time they were under the tracks, they were almost in Abe Lincoln Park and they were already misplacing people in that park. DF Jr.: Right, right. And then, we had the hippies -- of course, that part of area, you know, or -- I used to walk down Armitage, and I would feel sorry for them sometimes because they would never make it past [00:17:00] down Armitage. It was a rough time for them. JJ: So, you just thought of them as losers. DF Jr.: They didn’t belong there. They sort of didn’t belong. They were always trying to walk down. But they just didn’t belong. 10 �JJ: You’re talking about the Puerto Ricans now? DF Jr.: No, the hippies. I’m talking about the hippies as they walked down Armitage. It was all Puerto Ricans then. JJ: Oh, okay. So, you saw them as they were moving in. DF Jr.: Right. Moving in, walking through. It wasn’t a good time for a white kid to walk down Armitage at that time, late ’60s, early ’70s. It was a big thing. JJ: So, it wasn’t a good time for white kids to walk down? Why is that? DF Jr.: Well, because we had our fights with them. We were fighting them. The kids down by Armitage and Mohawk -- you know, we had the Mohawk group, the Corporation they called them, the Corps. back then. Remember [00:18:00] the Corps that was part of the gas station over on Armitage and Mohawk. And they were a lot of them -- a lot of those white kids. JJ: Oh, that gas station that -- by Mohawk? DF Jr.: It was Mohawk, Sedgwick maybe. JJ: Was it Sedgwick? DF Jr.: And there was a big empty lot right in front of the gas station. They used to all hang out there, a lot of them. And they used to come down Armitage in their cars. They all had cars, nice cars. Six or seven of them would jump on, and we’d run it. But it was a rough time back then. JJ: And you’re going to school now. Went to Mulligan you said? DF Jr.: Went to Mulligan. From Mulligan -- that was up to the fifth grade. Then, we went to Arnold Upper Grade Center. JJ: How was Arnold? (inaudible) having problems with the (inaudible). 11 �DF Jr.: Arnold was less [00:19:00] that. So, it was more mixture of people. It was a point where things started to change and more the Hispanics started to run things. And to me, we started to run things a little smooth, being Hispanic. JJ: So, Armitage became like a center of Hispanics for a while. DF Jr.: Yeah, for me it did. JJ: While you were there. Because the ’60s -- so, you were there during that period when -- well, that was -- so, you were in Armitage was Puerto Rican. DF Jr.: It was all Puerto Rican. JJ: All Puerto Rican from [West Street?] to [West Street?]. DF Jr.: Oh, man. I would say from Racine down east all the way at least until Burling, maybe Orchard going east [00:20:00] down to Wisconsin, Willow maybe, north to Dickens, Webster. JJ: That area was all Puerto Rican? Well, not all, but a majority. DF Jr.: A lot of Puerto Ricans knew each other. JJ: And did people know each other? What type of community was it? DF Jr.: Yeah, everybody knew each other. Everybody protected their corners or their neighborhoods. It was a thing about protection, like we protected each other, protected the neighborhood, protected the older people. JJ: So, you protected the older people. So, the youth were protecting the older people? DF Jr.: Right, sure. JJ: So, it wasn’t a drug enterprise like the gangs of today. 12 �DF Jr.: No, it never was. It never was. It never started like that. [00:21:00] It was always a group of guys that would protect the neighborhood that they lived in. JJ: Why would they need protection? DF Jr.: Well, from other racial groups, I would think. JJ: So, it was like a segregated area where different races lived on different blocks. DF Jr.: Sure, sure. Well, you had your white kids on Kenmore and Dickens. You know, it was a great white group of kids there. And of course you had the white kids over by Armitage and Mohawk that we had to deal with. JJ: And so, on Kenmore, you said there was white kids? DF Jr.: There were kids there, white kids, yeah. JJ: And did they give -- you know, I know the Blacks there were a problem. But did the white kids -- was there a problem with having -- in terms of physical? DF Jr.: Oh, yeah, yeah. We had big fights with them. [00:22:00] JJ: When you say big fights, what does that mean? DF Jr.: We had a big fight with them one time where there was a big shoot out there on Kenmore and Dickens. So, it was pretty -- somebody got hurt coming out of neighborhood there. JJ: So, it was Puerto Rican against the white groups? DF Jr.: Right. JJ: And that happened a lot or no? DF Jr.: It happened -JJ: Or just in the beginning, in the beginning or -- 13 �DF Jr.: Well, we had our problems with both. We had our problems with the white kids, and the Blacks, of course -- but the Blacks -- no matter how many of them were, they sort of respected us even though there was few of us [00:23:00] because they knew that we weren’t going to stand down to them. But we had our problems with them in school because we -- you know, when we were going to Waller, it was probably 92 percent Black at the time when I was there even through 1973 when I graduated. It was all Black. So, there was only maybe five percent Hispanic. JJ: You mentioned before that there was a lot of Hispanic because now they were bussing or something from community (inaudible) and that’s where (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DF Jr.: Right, sure. There was kids coming from everywhere. JJ: And a lot of Latinos dropping out. DF Jr.: Right, right. We didn’t have too many Latinos in that school. And then, the white kids -- they were two percent white kids. JJ: So, they had more (inaudible). DF Jr.: Exactly. JJ: In the early ’50s. DF Jr.: Right. Sure, sure. JJ: Because you’re coming in the ’60s. But ’62, ’63, there was -- Armitage, especially your area, was Puerto Rican from what you’re describing. DF Jr.: Yeah. It was all Hispanic there in the late ’60s and early ’70s with all the big bands, the salsa bands would come around, Willie Colon, The Fania All-Stars, 14 �Celia Cruz. It was all about Willie Colon. We all wanted to look like Willie Colon, the sideburns, the hair. It was that kind of style. JJ: And [Malo?]. DF Jr.: And Malo, yeah. It was that kind of a time. JJ: So, people were dressing like Willie Colon. DF Jr.: Yeah, big time Fania, everybody. JJ: With the coats and -- DF Jr.: Yeah, we went to a lot of the [Huracan?] dances, international ballroom, Northwest Hall, [Bank?] Hall, everywhere where the bands would play. JJ: Viking Hall. [00:25:00] DF Jr.: Viking Hall. JJ: So, it was a hall era. People were dancing all the time. DF Jr.: All the time. Every weekend there was a dance. Ray Barretto would come. JJ: So, they were (inaudible) and now they’re coming to Chicago (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DF Jr.: The top of salsa was back then. JJ: This was the ’70s. That’s when the (inaudible). DF Jr.: Yeah, exactly. Early ’70s. JJ: What about local bands? Were there any local bands? DF Jr.: Yeah. Local bands -- my wife’s brother was the leader of La Union, the Union. And that was [La Justicia?] back then. They always competed with each other, La Justicia, La Union. Actually, they came out with their own 45s. They [00:26:00] came out with their own records. 15 �JJ: The Solucion was another one. DF Jr.: La Solucion, La Justicia. JJ: So, this was when (inaudible) was. DF Jr.: Yeah, [Mr. Caribe?] was in charge of those groups. So, they were like the intro to a lot of the big bands. Like Ray Barretto would come. La Union would come in and play a few songs, and then Ray Buretta would come out or Fania would come out or Celia Cruz would come out. So, they were like the introduction type bands. JJ: So -- but they were also English speaking bands. Did you know any of those? Puerto Ricans but English speaking? DF Jr.: The only English -- I remember the only group -- I remember we threw a couple dances at St. Teresa Hall. [00:27:00] And we hired a group called the Hypnotics. I don’t know if you remember them. It was a group that we hired to play at our dance. JJ: What kind of music did they play? DF Jr.: It was all soul music. And we were into soul a lot until salsa came out. We were into soul. But the Hypnotics -- I’ll never forget that group because I hired them. I hired them twice to play. JJ: What were you hiring them for? What group were you representing? DF Jr.: Well, we had a -JJ: Were you part of St. Teresa’s (inaudible)? DF Jr.: No, we had a couple little social dances at St. Teresa’s. JJ: Who’s “we”? I’m trying to find out what group, what organization. 16 �DF Jr.: Well, we were part of the Latin Kings back then. JJ: Okay. The Latin Kings? DF Jr.: The younger kings because there were older guys, but we were the younger group. [00:28:00] JJ: Okay. So, you were the newer Latin Kings. So, you were throwing dances at St. Teresa’s. DF Jr.: We used to throw dances at St. Teresa’s. And then, of course, we had problems with the older kings, because they wanted to get in for free -- everybody wanted to get in for free. We used to say, “We can’t get in for free. You guys gotta pay.” So, we, as a younger group -- we had to pay to get in. So, we had our little problems with them. That’s when we had the -- that’s when our problems started with the older kings. JJ: But now, when you’re -- there was a hall there that used to have a lot of rooms. Did the hall get filled up? DF Jr.: Yeah. We had -- well, we used to go all over throwing flyers. We had people from all over the city to come. Our hall was packed. That little hall was packed. [00:29:00] JJ: And what about the women at that time? Who were (inaudible)? DF Jr.: There was all kind of women. Just -- it wasn’t -- we just had girls come from all over. JJ: So, you put flyers out? 17 �DF Jr.: Yeah, we used to throw flyers. We used to go to the south side, north side, west side. We used to throw up flyers for the dance. And we used to come -- you know, people used to come from all over the place. JJ: Now, before they (inaudible) that was at St. Teresa’s. Did you know them at all? DF Jr.: No, that must have been later. I don’t remember the -JJ: What about (inaudible)? But they’re still there. They’re actually still there, a small group of them. But these were the adults. So, they [00:30:00] threw dances there. In fact, they had mass there in Spanish. Were you Catholic? DF Jr.: Yeah, we used to go to St. Teresa’s. JJ: You used to go to St. Teresa’s? Now, did you ever attend St. Teresa’s? DF Jr.: Only to make my communion, confirmation. You know, we went to classes there for that. JJ: So, there were classes? DF Jr.: Yeah. Sundays or Saturdays we used to go to classes for communion, confirmation classes, you know. JJ: So, were Puerto Ricans running these classes? DF Jr.: No, I don’t think they were -- I think they were part of the school, part of the nuns and stuff that ran the program. I remember [Father Hoffman?] or something like that. JJ: Now, you went to Waller High School. You said you graduated from there? [00:31:00] DF Jr.: Went from Waller from ’69 to ’73. And I graduated from Waller. JJ: And you said it was mostly Black at that time? 18 �DF Jr.: Mostly Black. It was about 92 percent Black even then. JJ: When I went there -- I mean, I went there for only a couple months but it was a good 50, 60 percent Hispanic, maybe not that long. DF Jr.: Hispanic? JJ: Hispanic. DF Jr.: Wow. No, it wasn’t that much, not when -JJ: And the rest of them were mainly white at that time. DF Jr.: Wow. JJ: But then, I remember also when they started bussing (inaudible) and then the whites were (inaudible) communities. DF Jr.: Well, in ’68 when the riots came, [00:32:00] I was at Arnold’s school and I was in sixth grade when a brick came through our window when the riots started. JJ: They were rioting. They were rioting at that time. That’s right. You were (inaudible). DF Jr.: Yeah, that was ’67. JJ: Because they were looking for anybody that was white at that time. DF Jr.: Exactly. JJ: And I got lucky because they knew I was with some other Puerto Ricans. Otherwise, I would -- because I’m light skinned. But they ran right up to where we were (inaudible). DF Jr.: Right. They ran all down Armitage, down Halsted. JJ: They were looking for the whites. 19 �DF Jr.: Right, right. That’s when the mayor -- I remember the newspaper then. Kill to shoot. It was shoot to kill. Whatever that big comment was that he made. But I’ll never forget that. Actually, my parents had to pick me up from school because they wouldn’t let us out of school until our parents picked us up that day. JJ: Right. And (inaudible). Yeah. [00:33:00] DF Jr.: So, I was in sixth grade. I was in [Mr. Meyer’s?] class. Actually, I was standing next to the window when that brick went through the window. So, we all ran towards the door. I remember that day. I think that was the day that Martin Luther King was killed. Wasn’t it in that time, I think, ’68 or so? The riots happened. JJ: Right during that time there was a few riots. It wasn’t just one. They had a few. They would just chase people right after school. So now, you said (inaudible). [00:34:00] Did you go into the Bolero yourself? DF Jr.: No, I remember as a kid -- you know, the police used to harass us a lot. JJ: Did you guys hang around (inaudible)? DF Jr.: The older guys hung out on Dayton and Armitage, right on the church there. JJ: And you hung out there too? DF Jr.: Right. JJ: So, right by the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DF Jr.: Actually, we were there one night. I remember we were hanging out. There was -- must have been about 30 or 40 of us. And somebody -- either a car went by or -- man, we all hit the floor. (laughs) Backfiring of a car or something. I remember 20 �all of us hit the floor that day. It was pretty funny. It was funny, but it wasn’t funny. Somebody would have been hurt. JJ: Do you remember some of the (inaudible). DF Jr.: Names -- [00:35:00] JJ: First names. DF Jr.: I don’t remember really names. You know, some of the older guys, [Hanky?], Gaylord, I remember [Gaylord Bapo?], [Richie?], [Pedro Rosa?]. I don’t know if I should have said that. Pedro. JJ: That’s alright. It has nothing to do with their -- I just want to include them in that. DF Jr.: Mailman, a guy named Mailman. I forget his real -- you remember sort of nicknames. Sometimes I don’t remember the real names. JJ: And what did you guys -- did you guys just hang around there all night? I mean, what was the whole thing about hanging out? What was good about it when you were young? [00:36:00] DF Jr.: Really, there was nothing to do, and it was just a place to hang out. You’re sort of pretty close. It was a closeness between the guys that we just hung out with. Didn’t do much. Just hanged out and talked. There was really not much to do. JJ: Is there anything (inaudible) a gang or something, a rough gang or something? And I know that the people (inaudible). I mean, they’re not timid. It wasn’t the Boy Scouts. But were they actually looking for trouble all the time? DF Jr.: Never. I don’t remember the guys ever looking for trouble. It wasn’t that type of a group. Actually, the trouble always came to us for some reason. But [00:37:00] it was more protecting the neighborhood, protecting the old people. It was never 21 �about us going somewhere looking for trouble. I mean, maybe later on things changed as time changed and the year. But it wasn’t like that back then. JJ: Now, when you were (inaudible) church? DF Jr.: Yes, I was (inaudible) church. Yes. I was there when the Young Lords built the park. I remember the park they built over there on Halsted and Armitage. JJ: What was that like? What do you remember of that? DF Jr.: Well, you know, as the years went by we had our dances. [00:38:00] Things started to change between some of the guys. Because we were the younger group. There were older guys than us. So, it came to a point where -JJ: They were the young guys, [Hank?] and them. But you were younger than Hank and them? DF Jr.: Yeah, I was younger than Hank and them. They were a lot older than us. But it came to a point where we -- I and -- we just started to leave them. There was a group of us that left them, and we made our own group. And it kept -JJ: Your own group of kings? DF Jr.: No, we changed our name. Continentals. I don’t know if you remember the Continentals. So, we took that name from the older Continentals because there was an older group of Continentals back in the -- probably middle ’60s or something. The [Lebergons?] were around. So, we took their colors. [00:39:00] Of course, the Young Lords were purple and black, and then, the Continentals were black and purple, same colors except opposite. So, of course, when we took those colors, older guys didn’t like it because they didn’t like those colors. They never liked those Gent colors. You know, the Harrison Gents used to wear 22 �those colors. So, we started fighting our own friends, our own brothers. The minute we got our sweaters, we got into it. JJ: That’s pretty interesting because you always had those colors (inaudible) and we kept purple later. So, you guys took those colors too. I mean, Harrison Gents had those colors. I mean, we weren’t connected to them. DF Jr.: Exactly, exactly. JJ: But you were there and you took their colors. [00:40:00] DF Jr.: We took those colors except that ours was all purple with the black (inaudible) Young Lords and the Gents had the black and purple. But we had our problems back then. JJ: But (inaudible). DF Jr.: Right, right. Exactly. Right. JJ: So, was there a reason that you took those colors? DF Jr.: I just loved those colors. Maybe it was because of the Young Lords because we used to wear the Young Lords pants. We used to -- everybody had their pants. We all wore their pants. JJ: Everybody wore the pants? DF Jr.: Yeah, yeah, sure, we all had the Young Lords pants on. And I think the Young Lords back then gave -- it was like a type of respect, a boost that they used to give us [00:41:00] because of the things that they did that we weren’t part of that group sort of, you know, politically wise. But we respected that part because without that push, we wouldn’t be what we were at today. JJ: As a community you mean? 23 �DF Jr.: As a group, as a Hispanic group, as a community. I think the Young Lords did a lot for us back then, even though we -- I remember one of the guys always getting arrested. I forget his name. But he used to come by the school giving out flyers. The police would always arrest him. That was a time when the police just arrest all of us. My dad would send me to the store to go get cigarettes. I couldn’t go to the corner store without getting thrown up against a car or thrown up against a [00:42:00] wall to get searched. My mom would send me to get some milk. I’d be -- it’d take a while because the police would have me up against a car. Like I said, our corner was a hot corner. Armitage and Bissell was hot. Maybe the cops were thinking that maybe we were into the same thing that the people were there dealing stuff because we lived upstairs. But we weren’t. It just happened that we lived in that building. Nobody else did -- I mean, none of the people that used to do drugs lived in that building. It was just that we were in that corner. It was a hot corner. JJ: And then, you got pretty organized as you got -- you (inaudible). DF Jr.: As a younger group, we were pretty organized. That’s what the older guys didn’t like about us. We were organized. We had money. And we had all the weapons too. We had the weapons. When it came to trouble, who did they come to? They came to us, the younger guys, because we had all the weapons. [00:43:00] But they didn’t like it when we left the part of their group. JJ: So now, you’re graduating from Waller. You went to Waller. Anything from Waller that stands out in your mind? 24 �DF Jr.: We had our problems at school, like I said. But I graduated from Waller, and then, I went to Truman College downtown. Actually, I was going to join the army. I wanted to join the army back when I finished high school. That was my thing was to join the army. But I didn’t. I mean, that was of course turned -- the Vietnam War had just ended, 1973 the war had just ended. And I remember some of the guys going to Vietnam, getting drafted, you know, dropping out of school, [00:44:00] getting drafted, coming back. They’d be even worse. They went in there bad, that came back out worse with the drugs and stuff because they -- Vietnam was rough for some of the guys. I went to Truman College. I had trouble in high school. I didn’t do too good in high school. Never liked school that much. How did I make it through school? I don’t know. But went to Truman. JJ: Did you graduate? DF Jr.: I graduated by luck. I don’t know how I graduated. JJ: And you (inaudible)? DF Jr.: Not really. It was rough. High school was rough for all of us. I didn’t have to really do too much [00:45:00] to pass. The teachers were nice. I was nice to the teachers. I did what they told me to do. If I said, “I’m not going to be here. Tomorrow we’re going to the lake. We’re going to” -- it was no big thing for the teachers if I didn’t show up to school. We passed. They just passed you. Teachers didn’t really care. There were some good teachers, like [Mr. Metropolis?] who was a very good teacher. He was an algebra teacher. He had this little bottle on the side. He had a little bottle on the table that he used to drink. (laughs) I don’t know if you remember. Metropolis had a beard. But he 25 �was a good algebra teacher, a very good algebra teacher. But every once in a while, you could see him going to that desk and he’d take a little shot. [00:46:00] But he was a good teacher. I’ll never forget him. He was a good math teacher. JJ: And that was actually a plus. Like this guy’s one of us or something. He takes a shot. DF Jr.: He used to take a shot right in class right in front of us. I remember. We used to see him. JJ: I mean, could you relate to him pretty well? DF Jr.: Yeah. Well, he was a good teacher. JJ: What does that mean, he was a good teacher? DF Jr.: I mean, that was a prealgebra. So, that was a prealgebra class, I remember. After we finishing this class, we took the next algebra class with [Ms. Wilkins?]. Ms. Wilkins was the next teacher in algebra. And she was a very good teacher. Actually, she still writes to me on -- not Facebook -- but on that other one with the schools where everybody’s in the school thing. I don’t -- Ms. Wilkins -JJ: There’s something in the school? DF Jr.: Yeah, yeah. JJ: Like Waller Facebook thing? [00:47:00] DF Jr.: Yeah. JJ: I saw something -- DF Jr.: Classmates, that thing called Classmates. Ms. Wilkins is in there. She said something to me. But she was my algebra teacher. I had [Mr. Carr?] and [Ms. India?] was in charge of the work program because I was in the work program. 26 �JJ: How did that go? DF Jr.: The last two years of high school, I would get out of school at eleven, and then I would go to work. The morning classes were all classes and then, I would go to my job, wherever it was. JJ: And it was -- DF Jr.: It was set up through the school. So, where other kids were studying more into their classes, I was working. JJ: And what kind of work were you doing then? [00:48:00] DF Jr.: I was working at a drug store on Clark and Dickens. It was called Youngs Pharmacy. So, I was worked there for maybe two or three years. JJ: Just at the counter or -- DF Jr.: Stock. I used to fill out the stock. And the pharmacist was a really, really nice guy. Actually, he wanted me to be a pharmacist. He was always pushing me to go to school and to be a pharmacist. But that wasn’t for me. Actually, I still see him. JJ: So, you went from there -- you went to Truman College. DF Jr.: Truman College. Then I got married. JJ: What happened? How was Truman College? What were you studying there? What was your major? DF Jr.: My major there was in [00:49:00] business administration. I wanted to go into business. Didn’t like the -- I didn’t like the math. I mean, I didn’t get into the business part of. So, I sort of -- I started it, didn’t like it. It was rough. JJ: Originally, what were your plans? To set up a business? 27 �DF Jr.: No, originally, I wanted to work at a bank. I wanted to work at a bank. I took those classes like business administration. And my uncle was president of a bank. JJ: Oh, he was president of a bank? So, you figured -- DF Jr.: My mom’s brother was president of a bank. JJ: Your mom? DF Jr.: So, I was looking into -JJ: Your mom was president of the bank? DF Jr.: No, her brother. Her brother. So, I was looking into something like that to get into. But it wasn’t for me. [00:50:00] And of course, in ’75, I got married. JJ: What’s your wife’s name? DF Jr.: [Mirta Velez?]. JJ: Is she from the neighborhood? DF Jr.: No, she’s from Lake View. And she’s [Leo’s?] sister. Leo was the leader of La Union back then, the band La Union. So, got married and 10 years later, I got laid off from my job. I was working at Children’s Memorial. JJ: Did you have children then? DF Jr.: I had one little -- my oldest. Yeah, I had one. JJ: What’s her name? DF Jr.: [Alicia?]. Yeah, she was a child when I got laid off, 1980, Reaganomics. I’ll never forget Reaganomics. but we lost our jobs at the hospital. I was working security at Children’s Memorial [00:51:00] for three years, and then, I got laid off. And that’s when I went back to school. Went to Truman College, and that’s 28 �where I picked up my associate’s degree in law enforcement. I graduated there with honors and I minored in psych sort of. I took five classes in psych. JJ: Why did you get into law enforcement and corrections? Did you study corrections or no? You were studying business administration. DF Jr.: At first, I was studying business. The reason I got into law enforcement was I wanted to make a difference. I wanted to be a policeman actually. So, I wanted to sort of make a difference. I knew there were kids out there that needed someone to go to type of thing. JJ: And you understood the streets pretty well. [00:52:00] DF Jr.: Yeah. So, I knew that there were kids that needed help to get them off the gangs and stuff like that. So, that was my goal. But I never -- being -- I took the police test two or three times. It was really rough, especially the oral exams of the police department, being Hispanic and stuff. It’s sort of tough. JJ: Why was it tough? You went to college. You completed high school. Because I thought before if you had a high school diploma, it was easy to get in. DF Jr.: Even with a college degree, it was still hard to get in, especially when you don’t know the little tricks that they look for when they’re giving you the exam, the little questions they ask you and what they expect from you [00:53:00] in the oral exam. They put you in these little groups, and they want you to solve a problem. And sometimes -- one group -- I remember one time they put us in this group. One of the guys was sort of drunk. He was drunk, and he couldn’t stop talking. And he was probably the one guy that passed the exam because if you don’t talk in this group setting, you’re not going to pass. So, this guy that was sort of 29 �drunk, he probably was the only one that passed. He’s probably still a policeman now. (laughs) JJ: So, why were you so shy that you didn’t want to talk? DF Jr.: Well, he didn’t let nobody talk. I mean -JJ: Oh, this guy wouldn’t? DF Jr.: That part of the exam, he did not let nobody talk. But when I took it again, I already knew it was coming. So, the minute that part came, I told everybody in that class, [00:54:00] “This is what we’ve got to do. You pass it to this guy. You ask this guy this question. We all get a little a chance to talk in this class because that’s what they’re looking for.” How do we communicate? How are we going to solve this problem? And that’s what we did. So, eventually I passed. The next thing was the psychological test. So, you go see a shrink downtown. Well, another thing that I learned -- when you tell them the truth, it’s not good. So, when you tell -- one thing I learned about that is even though you’re telling the truth -- like for instance, I told him the truth about school, how we used to come to school and we used to bring our guns to school for protection, how we used to -JJ: So, you told him? DF Jr.: Yeah. We used to smoke going to school. [00:55:00] And of course, the psychiatrist goes, “Oh, yeah.” JJ: You told him you used to smoke cigarettes or the other kind? DF Jr.: The other kind. And then, the doctor would say, “I understand.” He would sort of agree with me. But then, at the end, he failed me. He failed my by telling the 30 �truth. So, that’s one thing that I always tell people. “When you see the shrink, don’t say nothing they don’t know. If they don’t know about it, don’t say it. Don’t tell them.” I remember telling all my friends that, “When you get to this section, don’t tell them nothing they don’t know. If you’ve never been arrested or if they don’t know nothing, don’t tell them about it.” It cost me telling them the truth. JJ: So, I’m not going to ask in this interview if you were arrested. DF Jr.: No, I’ve never been arrested. JJ: Okay, good. [00:56:00] So, you’d taken this test (inaudible) and you’re qualified for it but you didn’t make it. How did you feel? DF Jr.: I’m too old now. I mean, you get to a point where you’re too old. Once you pass 30, in your 30s you can’t take the test anymore. JJ: Well, I mean, at that time, how did you feel? DF Jr.: I felt pretty bad. I mean, even the director of security at the hospital felt bad that I didn’t pass the test because he knew that I was a nice -JJ: Because you already had a track record there. DF Jr.: Right and I got my degree and everything. So, I had more than some people did. Like you said, all you needed was a high school diploma. JJ: Right. And you had a degree. DF Jr.: I got my associate’s degree, yeah. [00:57:00] I always wanted to finish school. I mean, it wasn’t too far backwards where I was trying to get my bachelor’s in criminal justice. I got into a problem at work. I was in a program, special -- an advanced program. And since I had to get on the Internet a lot at work for my studies and stuff, I got into trouble, and they put me on corrective action. So, I 31 �had to drop out of school. So, I never got my bachelor’s because it was too expensive. The company was paying me to go to school. But I think I have maybe a year -- I would have like maybe a year left to finish. [00:58:00] JJ: So, you were working at the Children’s Memorial? DF Jr.: No, I’m at [S&C Electric?]. I’ve been there for 20 years. After Children’s, I got a job at S&C Electric in security. And now, I’m there. I’m a sergeant there, and I’ve been there 20 years. JJ: Is that a big company? Is there a lot of security there? DF Jr.: Yeah. We have like 50 something acres. We have maybe 12 buildings. We have a company here in Chicago, a company in Canada. JJ: So, you supervise how many? DF Jr.: I only supervise my shift, which is four guys. But I was in the police reserves. I was in the Illinois police reserves for a while which I ended with lieutenant. I was a lieutenant there. And I was more of an administration person. I was in charge of the website. I created the website for them. [00:59:00] I created these folders for all the sergeants and lieutenants and stuff like that. JJ: How do you get into the police reserves? Is that like recruitment of the national guard or something like that? You said you didn’t make the police reserves, but you were in the police reserves. DF Jr.: Yeah. There’s a group called the -- (crashing sound). JJ: What did I break? I broke something. DF Jr.: The police reserve is a group. We go -- you get into this group. You go into the training. There’s all kind of training, a couple hundred hours of training that you 32 �do on your own. You don’t get paid. [01:00:00] You pay for everything. It’s all volunteer. And your uniforms -- you’ve got to pay. JJ: This is a volunteer position. DF Jr.: Volunteer group. And we used to -- after September 11th, who were they looking for? Police reserves. All these little towns, these little suburbs and stuff that needed help because they didn’t have enough policemen, they would hire us. So, we would help them out. We were at Orlin Park at a mosque, protecting this mosque. Here we’re protecting the people that -JJ: You feel that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DF Jr.: Exactly. So, here we’re protecting -- of course, there’s people protesting in front of this mosque. And here we’re protecting them because that’s our job to protect them. So, we’re getting it from both sides, from our own [01:01:00] people and from them because they didn’t want us there. They people from the mosque didn’t want us there. JJ: They wanted you? DF Jr.: No, they didn’t want us there. JJ: But you were protecting them. DF Jr.: We were there and the FBI was there too because they were there too. But just a little scenario there from September 11th, something that I’ll never forget is how we had to deal with our people in this country and then protecting those people who didn’t want us there and here we were risking our lives for them. It was sort of -JJ: So, how did you feel? You were risking your life. 33 �DF Jr.: Well, it felt sort of -- it felt pretty shitty in a sense. But we were there. It was our job. JJ: Were you going to protect them? DF Jr.: Oh, yeah. It was our job to protect them. Yeah. But like I said, the FBI was there. [01:02:00] JJ: You said you had gone to the (inaudible). DF Jr.: The city would hire us as policemen. We had a letter from the mayor saying within these hours or this time period we’re policemen in their town. JJ: So, you actually (inaudible). DF Jr.: We got a letter from them. We had a uniform, weapons, and everything, just like the police there. And they still do that today. They’re still doing it today. We have a chief just like -- we have a deputy chief just like a police department. And we worked all these different parks, Old Park, Orlin Park, Oak Lawn, Shiler Park, River Grove. We worked all these little towns. Any time they had a big carnival where they needed help, where they didn’t have enough policemen to handle crowd control, they would hire us. Now, we didn’t get paid by the hour. We got a flat fee. [01:03:00] They paid the police who had served so much money, and then, we would get a flat fee like 45 bucks for the whole night or something. It was all like -- I forget the word they use -- not commission but -JJ: Some (inaudible). DF Jr.: Yeah. But it was always fun. We never -JJ: The whole thing (inaudible) law enforcement (inaudible). DF Jr.: Just -- well, my dad was always in security. 34 �JJ: It wasn’t the money alone. DF Jr.: No, no, no. It was never money. But I guess -- you know, my dad was in security. I remember as a kid when he talked about the military police. And then, he was in the Cook County Sheriff’s Department. Then he was sergeant at [01:04:00] the Masonic Hospital. He was security there, sergeant. So, I grew up in that kind of -JJ: In that kind of environment? DF Jr.: Yeah. So, it sort of like -JJ: It was natural. DF Jr.: Yeah. And then, like I said, I always wanted to -- I never liked the way the police used to treat us when we were growing up as kids. I always wanted to get into -and I used to see the shows, the -- Baretta. Baretta was a cool dude, cool Jack. And Baretta was always helping people out. He was a cool cop that could deal with people. He knew the streets and he was -- that’s the kind of cop I wanted to be, sort of like Baretta. JJ: My time was (inaudible). (laughs) DF Jr.: Right, right. JJ: So, [01:05:00] you moved out of Lincoln Park at what age? DF Jr.: I moved out in ’75. JJ: Were you moving out of your family’s house? DF Jr.: Yeah, we moved out of the family, and that’s when I got married. And I moved up north to -- our first apartment was up by the Truman College around Montrose and Dover or something. So, we were up there towards the Lake View area. 35 �JJ: So, what year was that when you moved? DF Jr.: That was ’75. JJ: Because ’75 we had that (inaudible) campaign. Were you aware of that? Were you thinking about that at all (inaudible)? DF Jr.: No, I don’t remember that. I moved out in ’75, and I didn’t really come back to the neighborhood much after that. [01:06:00] JJ: So, you must have been -- the (inaudible) was February. So, it had to be after February. DF Jr.: I moved out in April. JJ: Oh, ok. DF Jr.: Of ’75. JJ: So, it was after the campaign. DF Jr.: I moved out in April of ’75. I think it had to be --- no, it had to be -- maybe February of ’75. JJ: So, right after (inaudible). What -- well, you already mentioned -- you didn’t see any programs at the church or anything like that? DF Jr.: No, they -- I remember going to the church for meetings. The guys used to have their meeting there for a while. JJ: What did you think of the whole thing, the (inaudible)? Did you understand it or no? DF Jr.: I remember the guys were always getting in trouble. [01:07:00] The cops were always harassing the Young Lords because of their protesting. I remember one time the guys -- I never went because I wasn’t allowed to go out late or whatever. 36 �But I remember one time when the Young Lords went up to [Edison?] and Halsted. You guys were protesting in front of the police station up there. JJ: Actually, that was when I turned myself in. (laughs) I was under (inaudible) and I had (inaudible). So, it was (inaudible) I came out. I went in to organize again in the community (inaudible) do my time, parole. So, when I turned myself in, that was (inaudible). [01:08:00] Do you remember that? DF Jr.: I remember them going up there. I remember people talking about it. They were going to do that. But they were going up there to protest at the police station. I don’t know if I heard it at school. I don’t remember what year it was. JJ: It was like ’72. DF Jr.: Okay, so I was a junior at school. So, we -- I think in ’72, we -- I remember walking out of school. We had a big protest and the whole school walked out. We went to [Clemente?]. I don’t remember what the protest was about. But we all protested. I don’t know what it was. But it was a big thing down on Division Street. We walked down Division towards Clemente. But I don’t remember what the protest was about. JJ: But you were there supporting the protest then? DF Jr.: Yeah, we always supported the protest even though sometimes we didn’t know what it was about. JJ: So, why would you have [01:09:00] supported it? DF Jr.: Just being Hispanic. Because we might not have been fighting for the cause. But we supported the cause, whatever the cause was. If the Young Lords were doing a certain -- we still supported them even though we might not have known 37 �why. Because sometimes we didn’t really know, being younger or -- if somebody said, “We’re going to cut school for this protest,” we all did it. JJ: And the people from (inaudible). DF Jr.: Right, right. Sure, exactly. And then, we were part of the programs, the clubs in school, like ASPIRA. We were part of ASPIRA Club or the Spanish Club. We had little groups in school. JJ: So, you were part of ASPIRA? DF Jr.: ASPIRA. JJ: The Hispanic Club? [01:10:00] Was that connected to ASPIRA? What did that mean being part of ASPIRA? DF Jr.: Every school had an ASPIRA Club. Like I said, I remember the time they said we were going to protest, we were going to march, we were going to walk out and everybody from ASPIRA. That was the time that we were walking down (inaudible). But as to the reason why -- I don’t remember why. JJ: But you were a member of ASPIRA. My daughter (inaudible) school. DF Jr.: Yeah, I think ASPIRA had an office on North Avenue, didn’t they? JJ: I’m not sure where it was. DF Jr.: North Avenue, just west of Milwaukee somewhere. They had a thing there. [01:11:00] JJ: So, you were involved with the ASPIRA club. Any other clubs or organizations that you were involved in? DF Jr.: No, I can’t think of anything. We used to hang out at Oscar Mayer. We used to play the Mayer boys in there and the (inaudible). We used to play basketball 38 �against them. Back then, when these little groups used to hang out together in the streets and the blocks, it was all about protecting the neighborhood. It was never thinking of who you were going to fight or anything like that. We never -they never went to other areas to fight or to look for trouble because they were this color or that color. [01:12:00] It was never like that. At least what I can remember growing up in the beginning. JJ: Now, one of the things we had (inaudible). One of the things that -- one of the main issues we were fighting against was -- well, it wasn’t clear then. It wasn’t clear then. We made it clear later. One of the main issues we were fighting -- we were trying to save -- stop Puerto Ricans from being kicked out of Lincoln Park. Do you remember that at all? Our demonstrations and things like that to try to stop it? My question is not only do you remember it but how do you feel that there’s no more Puerto Ricans in Lincoln Park? And what do you think is the reasons [01:13:00] that they left? DF Jr.: Well, I just think that eventually it’s -- people with money moved in. They moved us out. I mean, that’s what happened there. I mean, a lot of us didn’t have money that lived there in that time. JJ: What do you think -- did they move us out or do you think people just kind of grew old and said, “I’m going to move out there?” What do you think is your -there’s no right or wrong answer. I’m just trying to get your opinion. DF Jr.: I think in my opinion, I think eventually they moved us out. As people with money moved in, as they started taking over the neighborhood, buying the properties [01:14:00] fixing the properties, bringing them up to the point where you couldn’t 39 �afford to live there, people had to move out. I mean, you can’t buy a home there for less than probably half a million dollars or something. All of that area there where we used to live is pretty expensive. JJ: And what do you (inaudible)? DF Jr.: Well, I don’t think there were too many people that owned, Hispanics that owned buildings there. Yeah, the Medinas owned a lot of the property on Bissell. But I think the majority of people that lived there rented. They really didn’t own property. I mean, as a kid, I don’t remember people owning property. JJ: So, that was one of the (inaudible). You didn’t know people that (inaudible). DF Jr.: No, the only person that I knew that owned any property were the Medinas. And that was our block. Bissell was our block [01:15:00] from Wisconsin to Armitage. That was our little group that we -- after we left the Kings is where we hanged out. JJ: Ask Mirta if she wants to say something? Because I told her I would put her in (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DF Jr.: Okay. Yeah. About her brother? JJ: Yeah. And if I (inaudible). (background dialogue) JJ: I’m just trying to -- if you can give me [01:16:00] your name. MIRTA FIGUEROA: Sure, my name is Mirta Figueroa, and I’m Diego’s wife. JJ: And did you live in Lincoln Park at all? MF: No, I didn’t. I lived in the Lake View area. JJ: The Lake View (inaudible). Did you -- when did you first come to Chicago? 40 �MF: I was born and raised in Chicago. My parents are from Puerto Rico. JJ: (inaudible) and what’s their names? MF: Pedro and [Angela Velez?]. JJ: And so, you came from Arecibo to Lake View? MF: My -- no, I was born and raised in Chicago. I was born and raised in Chicago. JJ: And your parents came from (inaudible). MF: My parents came from Puerto Rico in -- I’m sorry. [01:17:00] I don’t remember JJ: Was it the ’60s, ’80s? MF: I want to say it was like 1950s about. Yes. JJ: Okay, 1950s. And are they back in Puerto Rico? MF: No, since the 1950s they been here. So, they’ve been here for over 60 years. That’s correct, yes. JJ: Okay. And have they bought homes? MF: No, they have not bought homes. They lived in the -- near north side Chicago most of their lives. JJ: Do they still live there? MF: They presently live in a senior citizens’ high rise where my in laws also live in the north side of Chicago. They’ve been there now five years. JJ: And [01:18:00] we were talking about La Union (inaudible) group? MF: Well, yes, my brother Leo. He was in La Union, the leader. Yes, the leader. JJ: So, did you go to any of their dances? MF: Absolutely, yes. JJ: And so, what did they play? 41 �MF: Salsa. JJ: Salsa (inaudible). My cousin is the leader of (inaudible). DF Jr.: I didn’t (inaudible). JJ: Yeah. He was partner (inaudible). MF: So, you probably -- excuse me. You probably met my brother [Eligio?]. JJ: I didn’t meet him in person. I met him (inaudible). MF: You probably met him, yes. DF Jr.: Actually, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) you had a thing at [People’s Park?] one day and Leo played at the park. You hired Leo -- I don’t know if you hired him, the Young Lords. But they played at the park one day. JJ: Was (inaudible). DF Jr.: Yeah, but this was at People’s Park. And Leo was there. And you (inaudible). (laughter) JJ: So, what do you remember of La Union (inaudible)? MF: Well, my husband Diego and I would go to their dances. We had lots of fun. They were very well known for their music, [01:20:00] the excitement, the way they played, the instruments, the singing. So, that’s what you’d describe it. The music was clean. No foul language. And most importantly, their emphasis was to unite the different nationalities. JJ: (inaudible). MF: Yes. JJ: So, that was the mission of La Union. 42 �MF: Correct. And it was the excitement. It kind of reminded me of [Hector Navo?], you know, his music is well known, and for them, vocally, it was to unite all different types of people regardless of what nationality, the plan was unite, correct, unite them. And it was joyful. And it was to have a good time the clean way, which is really dancing, enjoying the music, socializing with one another. [01:21:00] It’s true. That’s why it was called the Union. And everybody enjoyed it. We’d go home, and we’d be happy, you know, joyful that we spent some time together talking to one another, listening to the music, the lyrics. It was all about really uniting together. JJ: I just wanted to (inaudible) I will ask you same question. How did you feel about -- when you were (inaudible) was there any (inaudible)? MF: At Lincoln High School? Yes. I went to Lincoln High School, and there were many different types of nationalities there. And it was pretty -- well, at that time, at least the people that I was around with who -- there were some, of course, who were gang related. JJ: What year at Lincoln was that? MF: I was in ’71 to ’74. And there were those, of course, who were with the wrong [01:22:00] crowd and those who weren’t. And we were one of those that weren’t obviously. We were brought up very conscientious and being aware of your surroundings and not to be with the crowd that influenced you in wrongdoing. So, I think -- as far as my high school days, (laughs) they were good. JJ: Does that mean the neighborhood was changing, right? 43 �MF: Absolutely. The neighborhood was changing. Even though there were some gang related issues of individuals, different types of gangs. But I would say I think it was progressing. It was just starting to progress. It wasn’t as bad as I heard the early ’60s. I understand that was the worst. By our time, it was slowly getting better, I think, compared to now. I think it’s worse now than ever. [01:23:00] JJ: You’re talking about (inaudible). MF: Yeah. What I hear -- I don’t know -- but overhearing, things have gotten worse instead of better, unfortunately. JJ: (inaudible) programs (inaudible). MF: It would be wise for them to have. Absolutely. It would be wise to have these programs because it would really help these young ones presently to avoid wrong associations. JJ: What do you think about some poor people and Latinos that left the neighborhood? What do you think about that? MF: That’s very sad that they were left with not being directed. Is that the question you’re asking? How do I feel about the people before? JJ: Well, I’m not talking youth. I’m just talking about the community. MF: It’s sad to hear if there is. I don’t know -- [01:24:00] JJ: That Spanish people were moved out of there. MF: Sorry. (laughs) I’m sorry. I don’t remember. JJ: Oh, you don’t remember, okay (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). Hopefully (inaudible). 44 �MF: Well, that’s the purpose of it, isn’t it, to help them? That’s what we do. We want them to be helped. We do -- it’s nice to hear that you’re doing this. JJ: There’s a lot of (inaudible) [01:25:00] DF Jr.: I mean, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). MF: You want to sit here, honey? JJ: (inaudible) DF Jr.: No, no, actually -JJ: Thank you, Mirta. DF Jr.: Like they do up north mostly -- they had their Hispanics up there. But a little different than our area. Our neighborhoods are a little tougher than -- and of course, they had -- like Mirta said, they had their different kinds up there. They had the Latin Eagles up there and that some (inaudible) police station. They were right there by the police station. But like in everywhere else, you’ve got your gangs and (inaudible) aristocrats. Aristocrats are just west of Sheffield there (inaudible). [01:26:00] Then you had your white kids. Simon City Royals. JJ: (inaudible) stable but then it gets unstable until it gets resettled. And in that process, that’s probably where (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DF Jr.: We went from being -JJ: And some (inaudible) some of the reasons for gangs to get worse, for them getting worse? DF Jr.: If the gangs got worse? JJ: Yeah, what do you think they got worse. I mean, there’s always groups (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). [01:27:00] 45 �DF Jr.: I mean, the Bloods came in. All the guys that came from Vietnam, they came back worse. Some of the guys that went to prison came back worse. So, I mean, (inaudible) things getting worse. JJ: So, when they came back from Vietnam, they were worse. They didn’t have anything to -- anyone helping them to readjust. DF Jr.: Right, it just got worse. JJ: They got worse. They needed some kind of -- DF Jr.: Well, when they were in Vietnam, they got into war drugs too. So, how can you get into -- how can you fight that war without drugs there? It was a tough war in Vietnam. So, a lot of guys got into drugs there. When they got back, they would just -- it just got worse. Of course, we had the worst drugs. JJ: And that’s where the shootings would start [01:28:00] (inaudible). DF Jr.: Yeah, we didn’t have no shootings growing up. Shootings didn’t start -- I don’t think shootings started like until ’72 maybe when things started to change. Back when we grew up, it was a face to face thing, man to man thing. It was a one to one thing. It wasn’t the way it is -- the way it changed. I mean, people used to respect each other. There’s no respect now in gangs. There’s no respect. I mean, the area’s changed a lot from what it was obviously. You can’t afford to live there on Armitage anymore. JJ: (inaudible) DF Jr.: No, no. [01:29:00] A lot of the guys came out of there feeling good. Some of the guys didn’t. A lot of the guys died. I know a lot of guys died. And the guys and the fights and the drugs and the overdoses -- there was a lot of stuff that when 46 �you go back there and you think about some of the friends that are no longer here. A lot of the guys made it. A lot of the guys came out of it. A lot of the guys did become policemen. I don’t know if you remember [Bobo?]. He’s probably like (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). Bobo’s more like your age. JJ: And [Raymond?] and (inaudible) know him? DF Jr.: Yeah, yeah. JJ: They grew up (inaudible). DF Jr.: Bobo retired. JJ: [Smiley?] and Bobo and Raymond. DF Jr.: Yeah, Bobo retired. And I see Bobo every year. We have a turkey bowl every year. [01:30:00] JJ: (inaudible) DF Jr.: Yeah. Well, a turkey bowl is -- it’s Thanksgiving day where the guys meet to play football. Every year they play football. But the older guys don’t play football no more. All we do is drink. But the young kids, the sons and stuff, they still play football. But you always see Bobo there. You see his brother there. JJ: Where is this? DF Jr.: Usually, Mozart Park over there on Armitage. Last year we had Humboldt Park because something happened on Rosa Park. One of the guys works at Mozart Park so we said there. JJ: Oh, that’s nice. DF Jr.: Last year we had it at Humboldt Park. I’m not sure this year where it’s going to be. But I don’t remember if you remember [Moldo?]? 47 �JJ: I don’t know. DF Jr.: Pedro’s brother. He didn’t speak. [01:31:00] He was (inaudible) everybody -you see a lot of guys from (inaudible). JJ: (inaudible) DF Jr.: No, I can’t think of anyone -- can’t think of anything now, anybody else. JJ: Okay. I’m going to have you sit -- (break in video) JJ: Testing one, two, three. Testing one, two, three. Go ahead and say testing or something. DF Jr.: Testing, testing, one, two, three, testing. JJ: Okay. This is (inaudible) (Spanish) DIEGO FIGUEROA SR.: (Spanish) DF Jr.: Well, this is the most important. I’ll tell you which one it is. I think it’s the -- I forget the medal. But this is the most important. This is the infantry badge, combat badge. And this one is the most -- the highest medal [01:33:00] between these. This is his Korean medal with his three tours. These stars means tours like summer, fall, winter, the three tours in the ’50s that he was there. Of course, these stripes mean tours. JJ: And his name is Diego too, right? DF Jr.: Yes. JJ: Diego Figueroa, Sr. DF Jr.: Yes. And these were given to him by the country of Korea. So, these three here were given to him by the country of Korea years later, not during, you know -- so, 48 �this one and this one -- these three here are from his -- are the same things that he’s got here. You can see this one here, this one here, this one here. These are the stripes that match their -JJ: That match their -- that -- DF Jr.: Of course, this one is this one. [01:34:00] This one is this one. This one is this one. But these were given to him by the country of Korea. JJ: Now, what is that little plaque on the bottom? What does it say there? DF Jr.: Right here? JJ: Yeah. DF Jr.: It just says -JJ: And if you want to lift it up just a little bit -- DF Jr.: It just says -- I can’t read it. JJ: It says something about -- is it -- DF Jr.: That is -- it says his rank, of course his unit. JJ: What is his unit? DF Jr.: It says the Third Division. It says Borinqueneers Company K. JJ: That was (inaudible). DF Jr.: Company K, 65th Infantry. And it’s got the year and the month that he was in Korea. [01:35:00] JJ: So, the Borinqueneers were what? What were they? DF Jr.: It was a group of segregated Puerto Ricans, the only segregated military group ever, all Puerto Ricans that fought in a war. Of course, this flag says the “Forgotten War” because the Korean War was sort of forgotten by many people. 49 �But it’s -- the Borinqueneers was all Puerto Ricans. It was the only -- if you look up the history of the Borinqueneers, it was the only segregated military group. JJ: Were these just Puerto Ricans from Puerto Rico or from here? DF Jr.: All Puerto Ricans from Puerto Rico. JJ: Okay, they were there, and they fought in the Korean War. Okay. Okay. [01:36:09 - 1:49:57] (Spanish) DF Jr.: His sister. JJ: Is in Ciales? DF Jr.: No, that she lived here. [01:50:00] She died. DF Sr.: JJ: (Spanish) But all the other ones were in Puerto Rico? DF Jr.: One of his brother lived in New York. The rest of the family lived in Puerto Rico, in Ciales. One of his sisters moved here, actually (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). The son Jose grew up with me. We were the same age. So, they go -- they lived on Bissell. JJ: Oh, okay. DF Jr.: So, his sister (inaudible). So, we grew up together. They came here later. They were already in their teens when they got here, when they moved here to Chicago. She graduated from eighth grade with me but then they moved to Puerto Rico. So, he didn’t go to [01:51:00] high school here. [01:51:04 - 1:53:30] (Spanish) DF Jr.: See, remember. There were other Puerto Ricans there on the front line fighting. They were there to relieve them, the other Puerto Ricans they were fighting. But 50 �they were there to relieve them. They were already fighting. And there was issues too because if you read about the Puerto Ricans in Korea, there were some issues in Korea when it comes to those that didn’t want to fight that were being court-martialed. There were some that would be court martialed. They were coming in right after that. [01:54:00] JJ: Oh, so there were Puerto Ricans protesting? DF Jr.: Protesting because they were tired of -JJ: Because they had been there too long? DF Jr.: Well, they were just getting killed. They were just being told to attack, to attack, to attack. And nobody -- they’re just -- too many of them dying. And they just said, “We had enough.” So, they were protesting. JJ: Well, I call it protesting. But I mean, they were refusing to -- DF Jr.: Yeah, I forget what you call it. I don’t know what military language -- what the word is. JJ: But they were refusing to fight. DF Jr.: Exactly. And they were being arrested. JJ: Court martialed. DF Jr.: Yeah, court martialed. Yeah, exactly. When you read about the part -- there is a history part where there was a group of Puerto Ricans that didn’t want -- that refused to fight anymore. DF Sr.: Yeah, refused to fight. They didn’t want to fight. DF Jr.: They came in right after that. They were sent there right after that part. JJ: And they went (Spanish) front lines. 51 �DF Jr.: Right to the front line. JJ: The front line, moved to the front line. DF Sr.: (Spanish) -- when I went to Korea, the only one I have is just, I don’t have this stripe. Just plain. JJ: And that’s a sergeant stripe. DF Sr.: JJ: Yeah, that’s the first stripe. So you became [first stripe?]. DF Sr.: This one here -- no the, second one. (inaudible) The other three, that’s a combat stripe. The three and three, a combat stripe. JJ: (Spanish) Okay, right there yeah. So, again, tell me what -- again, the stripes. DF Sr.: This is one, two, three. And one, two, three is a combat. And this one is the administration. You’ve got to go to school, okay? So, when I went to Puerto Rico. JJ: You went to school? DF Sr.: From Korea -- when I came back from Korea to Puerto Rico [01:56:00] they want to take my stripe off, everybody. JJ: Why? DF Sr.: Because you’ve got to go take a test to hold that stripe. You have to take a test. DF Jr.: These were combat stripes. DF Sr.: These are combat stripes (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) temporary stripe. JJ: Yeah, because they want to put it down. 52 �DF Jr.: It would not make any sense though. It would not make any sense that they would take your stripes away especially when you’re fighting in combat. You deserve those stripes. And the ones that went to him was -- they wanted to demote him because he didn’t take the test to deserve those stripes even though he got them in combat. So, they made him take a test. DF Sr.: A lot of Puerto Ricans -- when they went back to Puerto Rico -- DF Jr.: They lost their stripes. DF Sr.: They had take a test. If they don’t take the test, it’s (inaudible). [01:57:00] No matter you are three and three or your got a (inaudible) or whatever you had. JJ: So, how did you feel? DF Sr.: You’ve got to take a test. [01:57:00 - 02:00:30] (Spanish) DF Sr.: I don’t believe it. “You’re sure? You have the test already?” He said, “Right now, I’ll give it to you.” (Spanish). “Go to there. Go through that door.” Okay. So, I went. “Take your shirt off.” (Spanish) [02:01:00] [02:01:01 - 02:02:54] DF Jr.: But they were the 65th Infantry. DF Sr.: (Spanish). DF Jr.: They relieved the 295th. The 295th was already there. They’re the [02:03:00] 65th Infantry. JJ: Okay. They’re the 65ths. So, the Borinqueneers were the 65th. DF Jr.: Right. [02:03:07 - 02:04:44] 53 �DF Jr.: They were trying to take the hill. There’s different hills. Like (Spanish). DF Sr.: (Spanish) DF Jr.: Kelly Hill was a famous battle. If you look up Kelly Hill, [02:05:00] it was a big battle. [02:05:05 - 02:07:23] (Spanish) DF Jr.: When you were on the ground, what did you feel on the ground? DF Sr.: What happened -- in the wintertime, we had to be in white clothes. [02:07:45 - 02:08:05] (Spanish) DF Jr.: But no, tell them when you were like in the ground, what you felt and what -- you didn’t know what was on the ground. Remember you told me there were already dead people on the ground when you were like -DF Sr.: (Spanish) DF Jr.: Because it was dark. You know, it was real dark. You couldn’t see. [02:08:29 - 2:12:48] (Spanish) DF Jr.: But that’s what doesn’t make no sense because they sent them home. And that’s why I was fighting with the military and this court thing because [02:13:00] if he got wounded, you’re supposed to get a Purple Heart. Anybody that gets wounded in war -- you get a Purple Heart. They sent him home. I assumed that by them sending him home and not sending him back to the front line that he got wounded. But yet, they -- because, like I said, the records got burned in the fire in Virginia, whatever, that I didn’t have enough proof so he didn’t get the -because I was fighting for that Purple Heart. DF Sr.: Yeah, they’re supposed to give it to me, Purple Heart. 54 �JJ: There was no other way to prove that? DF Jr.: They sent me a letter recently. I’ve got the letter somewhere upstairs. But they said that if I didn’t have proof -- if I had somebody that was there that witnessed it -- there any proof that he was in the hospital, that he was at home after that. But all the paperwork got, I guess -DF Sr.: JJ: Yeah. They can’t find it in the record. The record, they can’t find. So, [02:14:00] I mean, how did they (inaudible)? DF Jr.: Since all the military records got in the fire. JJ: In the (inaudible)? DF Jr.: There was a fire. DF Sr.: He tried to get it. DF Jr.: A lot of the records for the Puerto Ricans -- they (inaudible) asked for -- these medals I got from the military. They sent them to me. They sent me these medals because they wanted them to reissue him his medals. These are all reissued from the military. JJ: So, the originals you didn’t have? DF Jr.: The originals he had when he was at home. But his mom probably got rid of them (inaudible). JJ: But they had a copy of that. So, they (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DF Jr.: Well, they reissued these medals. JJ: So, they knew that he (inaudible). DF Jr.: Right. JJ: So, that record (inaudible). 55 �DF Jr.: They had the record. JJ: Was he the only Puerto Rican that they lost the records of? DF Jr.: No, a whole bunch of them, a whole bunch of people. JJ: Or was it is [02:15:00] his battalion? DF Jr.: A whole bunch of people. JJ: Is that what it was called? Battalion? DF Jr.: Infantry. Battalion infantry. JJ: Okay. So, his whole infantry was lost. DF Jr.: Right. JJ: The Borinqueneers’ information was lost. (Spanish) DF Jr.: I don’t know. We really don’t know about the Borinqueneers. But he was part of that group. So, I would assume that a lot of the records of the people that were in his group were lost. JJ: Because where was the fire at? Was it there? DF Jr.: It was in Virginia. It was at the military base. They had a big fire. JJ: So, it wasn’t just the 65th Infantry that got lost. DF Jr.: No. JJ: Other companies. Okay. So, it wasn’t about anything discriminatory. DF Jr.: No, no. Just all the records, all the military records that they had. And he was in that group that got burned. DF Sr.: All the papers, my records [02:16:00] -- the people’s records disappeared. They burned down. Right? DF Jr.: That’s what they told me. 56 �DF Sr.: JJ: (Spanish) Maybe there’s other way. [02:16:11 - 02:22:08] (Spanish) DF Jr.: It’s a city in Korea called Onchon. [02:22:11 - 02:23:31] (Spanish) DF Jr.: Funny when it comes to the Borinqueneers. It’s a little funny story. It was all [sad?], and this is a little funny part of this history. [02:23:44 - 02:28:48] (Spanish) DF Jr.: So, they took his mustache first. He’s the commanding officer, he says [gotta go, gotta go?]. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) [02:28:57 - 02:34:07] (Spanish) DF Jr.: It was so dark that they had to hold on to each other’s clothes because if not, they would not see -- if they were to let go, they’d be lost because they wouldn’t know where to go. So, they had to hold one to -- everybody would hold on to the front guy. DF Sr.: (Spanish) DF Jr.: And they always attacked the guy at the end, he was saying. So, sometimes in order to know that there’s a problem behind you -- when that guy loses his grip on the guy behind them, they know that the Koreans were behind them because they would attack from behind and they would get the last guy. [02:35:00] They would get the guy at the end one at a time. Boom, boom, boom. That’s how they would attack you one at a time. But the last guy -- boom, you know? DF Sr.: [02:35:18] 57 �DF Jr.: [02:41:46] Kind of like today. You’ve got South Korea, North Korea. South Korea is a democratic country. And I’m sure that when he went to -- when he was at war, there were certain Koreans that were against the communist Koreans. So, they were [02:42:00] willing to help out in whatever way they could. JJ: But he’s saying that there was no trust towards any Korean. DF Jr.: Well, yeah, obviously I wouldn’t trust them either. Koreans -- you know, yeah. You had the trust even though they -- even though you were there in their country. JJ: Even though you’re defending them, you’re still -- because you don’t know. You don’t know who they are. [02:42:27 - 02:47:04] (Spanish) DF Jr.: Tell them when they caught you speeding, that they caught you speeding on the base, that you had to go to court, that they wanted to take your stripe away. DF Sr.: Oh, the (Spanish). DF Jr.: No, for speeding on the base. They wanted to take your stripe away. JJ: Speeding in a car? DF Jr.: Yeah, he was speeding in a car. DF Sr.: Yeah, in a car. [02:47:29 - 02:47:51] (Spanish) DF Jr.: But didn’t they -- didn’t you have to go to court? They wanted to take one of the - they took one of the stripes away from you because -- you either gave them the stripe or you had to go to court [02:48:00] or you said, “Okay, well, forget it. I won’t go to court. Just take the stripe from me.” Remember? 58 �DF Sr.: Yeah (Spanish). DF Jr.: If you go to court, you can lose everything, you can lose all your stripes. Right? DF Sr.: JJ: (Spanish) So, you’re saying if they go to court, you can lose the stripes? DF Jr.: You lose them all. DF Sr.: JJ: You lose them all. And for anything? For traffic? DF Jr.: Yeah. I mean, because -JJ: Because they have a kangaroo court. They (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DF Jr.: And they just came from Korea. They were all war stripes. They weren’t really -he didn’t earn them as a -- taking tests, like you said, because that was afterwards, taking the tests in Puerto Rico. So, when they caught him for speeding, they -DF Sr.: (Spanish) DF Jr.: It was more like a harassment [02:49:00] type of thing for me. They were Puerto Rican. They had more stripes than we did. You know? DF Sr.: (Spanish) (break in video) JJ: Testing one, two, three. Testing one, two, three. [02:49:36 - 03:01:34] (Spanish) DF Jr.: It could be that they were doing their business (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). Then they get mad, they get mad and they say, (Spanish), what the heck, [buddy?]? Everybody drinking at this bar is making more money, then we’re 59 �making more money. It’s because the guy -- the German guy keeps Spanish and he brings all [03:02:00] the -[03:01:57 - 03:13:40] (Spanish) DF Jr.: So, ’63 up to ’75, we lived in that area. JJ: Sixty-three to ’75? DF Jr.: Sixty-three to ’75. I lived there. [03:13:51 - 03:19:03] (Spanish) DF Jr.: The cleaners, the [Rosarios?] were right there. JJ: (Spanish) DF Jr.: No, no, no, cleaners. Right next to the five and ten. That’s where we would take my clothes all the time. I used to take them to clean them. DF Sr.: (Spanish) DF Jr.: Are you talking about [Martinez?], Martinez barbershop. JJ: Yeah, I remember. But what was on that corner? DF Sr.: (Spanish) DF Jr.: Just west of Fremont, west of Fremont, on the south end, between Dayton and Fremont. JJ: On the south end? DF Jr.: Well, you know the church was on Dayton and they had a grocery store right across the street and they had the laundromat on the other corner on Dayton. They had a little grocery store. [03:20:00] JJ: Everybody didn’t like our church (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DF Sr.: (Spanish) 60 �JJ: This is good because I forgot about Martinez and the story, the [Rubios?] and the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DF Jr.: They had the little grocery store that became a liquor store. JJ: (Spanish) DF Jr.: It was a restaurant right next to us. JJ: (Spanish) DF Jr.: Next to us. JJ: Is it next to you? DF Jr.: On Bissell. JJ: Oh, you’re on Bissell, yeah. DF Jr.: There was a park. And then, right next to it was a little restaurant. [03:22:00] JJ: Oh, there was a restaurant there too? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DF Jr.: (Spanish) [Felix Quinones?]. It was right there on the -- right next to the bar there was a little restaurant called Quinones. But (inaudible). DF Sr.: (Spanish) END OF VIDEO FILE 61 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b9d4e3ab18737db3649cc5dab08fc21e.mp4 b2d7e82429446173569030da56773604 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Diego Figuearoa, Jr. vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Diego Figuearoa, Jr., entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 8/25/2012 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Figueroa_Jr_Diego Title A name given to the resource Diego Figuearoa, Jr. video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Figueroa, Jr, Diego Description An account of the resource Oral history of Diego Figuearoa, Jr., interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 8/25/2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-08-25 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4b7b631c511eeb2032248d5f0498f011.pdf 58871506ff384009487f70b9f14c3221 PDF Text Text ,. PEP PER, HAM I L TON 2\, S C H r::: ET Z A TTO R NEYS A T LA W ....A MES .. . MOO R E .JOH N B . HU F" F"~ K ER AON A t 0 M . OI E TRIC H H . L A W R E N CE F-"CX R ICHAR D M . R I I"4D L E.R ALL EN K . H AL P E RI N ER NE ST Q . W I L,SON P E"'i'E R C . W I L Ll AM ~ 12 3 SO UT H B RO AD S TREET / 776 F STREET , N . W . 4 WASH/N GTON , D. C. PHl LAD ELP H IA , F A . 19 10 9 (2 15 ) 545 -1234 20006 S U ITE 40 0 10 SO U 1'H M Ail " ET SC; L; A Rt: . HA R R I S B U R G , PA . 17 10 8 (71 7) 23 3 - e 4 8 3 ( 2 0 2) 46 7-6 5 00 BARB A RA ~ . W A S H S URN DRAFT S. 2475, A BILL TO A11E ND THE INTERNAL REVENUE CODE OF 1954 TO r-10DIFY 7 H:G CHARITAB LE DIS TRIBUTION REQUIREME NTS I MP OSED UPON P RIV ATE FOUNDATIONS (TE L ~n NH1U M DI STRIB UTI ON RULE OF SECTION 49 42) Written Statement and Oral Testimony Presented to The Senate Cummitt e e on Finance on Thursday, April 8, 1976 By the Ad Hoc Cor.unittee on Famil y Found ations: The HOITilel Foundat ion The Kellogg Found ation The Kresge Foundation The Lilly Endo~nent, Inc. The Mac lellan Foundation The Pew Memori a l Trust The Jo s eph B. Wh itehea d Foundation PLEASE REPLY TO WASH IN GTON O FFICE �- 15 ( " A staff established to p:::-occss applications for $1,500,000 will be inadequate for $2,100,000; likewise, the expectations of charity built on"a year when $2,100,000 not be met when a lower year follows. lS distributed will One of the frequent challenges to the foundation is to engage in new and innovative activities. This means fuller exploration of the nontraditional applications and probably grant. a longer time between application and At any rate, the fluctuating minimums -- particularly at an unrealistic level -- will obviously be counter-productive to any d esize to get into fields requiring greater attention per application. This serves to prevent foundation managers from being efficient and frustrates the objectives of foundation grants. The final member of our panel presenting testimony is Drc Russell Mawby, Creek. Mi ch i g a n . President of the Kellogg Foundation, Battle �- 16 I amR u s s e l lG . M awby , P r e s i d e n to fTh eK e l l o g g F o u n d a t i o n , ·B a t t l eC r e e k , M i c h i g a n . Ii n t e n dt oi l l u s t r a t ea n ds umm a r i z e t h ec o n c l u s i o n so ft h i sg r o u p . F o rt h i sp u r p o s e , Iw i l lu s e t h ee x p e r i e n c eo ft h eK e l l o g g F o u n d a t i o ns i n c ei t i si l l u s t r a t i v eo ft h eg r o u po ff o u n d a t i o n ss u b s c r i b i n gt ot h i ss t a t em e n t . I t sf o u n d e rr e a l i z e da t o t a lt a xb e n e f i t( i n c om e ,g i f ta n d e s t a t e )o fa p p r o x im a t e l y$ 5 0 0 , 0 0 0o ng i f t sw h i c ht o d a yh a v ea t o t a lf a i rm a r k e t.v a l u eo fa p p r o x im a t e l y$ 5 9 0m i l l i o n . Th e t o t a lo ft h e s ea s s e t sa r em a i n t a i ne do nb e h a l fo ft h eF o u n d a t i o ni nw h a tm ay b es a i dt ob eD IO s e p a rR t ep o r t f o l i o s ,w h i c h Is h a l lr e f e rt oa s "K e l l o g g "a n d "D i v e r s i f i e d .11- KE ' l l o g g c o n .s i s t se n t i r e l yo fK e l l o g g - Comp any s t o c x'1 ,"1t ha v a l ue o f $543 m i l l i o n . D i v e r s i f i e dc o n s i s t so fs t o c k s , _b o n d sa n do t her in ter e s t b e a r i n go b l i g a t i o n sa n dp a sa na p p r o xim a t ev a l u eo f$ 4 8m i llion . K e l l o g gh a sc o n s i s t . e n t l you t .v -p erf 'oxm ed D i v e r s i f i e dw hi . chw as e s t a b l i s h e dt om e a s u r e t h ef r u i t so fd i v e r s i f i c a t i o n . Ap r i n c i pQ lc o n t e n t i o nr e f l e c t e di nt h eP e t e r s o n R ep o r t w a s t h a tt h ep o r t f o l i o so fp r i v a t e o ndt ~ on h a dn o tp r o d u c e d t h er a t eo fr e t u r nwhic hi t v i a st h o u g h tt oha v eb e e nprod uced b ym u t u a l f u n d s . By a n ym e a s u r e o fr e t u r n ,t h eg r o up h a so u t - .p r o d u c e dm u t u a l f u n d sf o r · t h ep e r i o dcovered b yt h eP e t e r s o n �- ~"I - R e p o r ta n dh a sc o n t i n u e dt odo s os i n c e . F o re x am p l e ,I nt h e l a s ts i xy e a r st h eK e l l o g gF o u n d a t i o n ' si n c om e , e ~ o ft h e ' F o u n d a t i o nT r u s t ' sh o l d i n g si nt h eK e l l o g g Comp any , ha sc o n t i n u e d t ob es u b s t a n t i a l l yg r e a t e rt h a ni t w o u l d h a v eb ee n ha di t sn b e e nd e r i v e de n t i r e l y w a s ~ p e r c e n tf o r o~ d i v e r s i f i e d n o~e n e t~ent . r e c e i v e df r omt ~ o~e Th ei n c r e a s e K e l l o g g h o l d i n g s a sc o n p a r e dt oa ni n c r e a s eo f4 . 7p e r c e n to nt h eF o u n d a t i o n ' s d i v e r s i f i e dp o r t f o l i o . I ti so u ro p i n i o nt h a tt h es a l eo f K e l l o g ga n dt h ed i v e r s i f i c a t i o no ff u n d sw o u l d r e s u J ti na g r e a t e rh a n d i c a pt om e e t i n g t h ep a y o u t e e~ ent o ft h eT ax R e fo rm Act ,o f. 1969a n dr e s u l ti na l ow e rr e t u r nt oc h a r i t yo v e r t h ey e a r s . N o to n l yw a s t h eP e t e r s o nR e p o r ti n c o r r e c t p e r f o r m an ce ,b u t ~ p r e@ i s eo fa ~ ~ re g ard t o p a y o u tb e i n gg o o d.fo r c h a r it yi sw ro n c , E 'o re x am p l e ,h a dt h emi .ni . rn um di . . st J i bl l t : i o n r u l eb e e ni ne f f e c t ,a t6 p e r c e n t ,f r om1934 whe nt h eFo n~ t n t h e c o n t a i n e d2 2 1 , 0 0 0s h a r e so o ~ n , f a i rm a r k e t v a l u e .$ 3 / , 5 7 0 , 0 0 0I t h ef o 1 1m ' l i n gw o u l dh a v eo cc u z e de (1 ) F rom S e p t em b e r1 ,1 9 3 4 ,t h r o u g hAug u st 3 1 , 1972 , t h eF o u n d a t i o nm ad e a na c t u a ld i s tL i b u t i o no f$ 2 0 3 , 0 9 2 , 1 9 6a n d i f t h em in imum d i s t r i b u t i o nr u l eh a db e e na p p l i c a b l e ,d i s t r i b u t i o n so f$ 2 4 2 , 7 0 6 , 8 1 1 o~ a ni n c r e a s eo f$ 3 9 , 6 1 4 , 6 1 5 )w o u l d h a v e b e e nm ad e ; (2 ) Th eF o u n d a t i o nw o u l dh a v eh a dt os e l lt h ee q u i v a l e n to f8 , 8 1 3 , 9 2 8s h a r e sw i . t .h.«ma r k et ;v a l u eo f $214 ,8 : :>9 ,495" h u s , 't h eP o u n d a t i o n ' s ' h o l d i n gw o u l d h a v eb e e nr e d u c e dt o . and ,t �-18 am a i k c tv a l u eo f$ 2 2 6 ,OG l , 3 5 5 ; a n d (3 ) Th eh i g h e r~et n t oc h a r i t yo f$ 3 9 , 6 1 4 , 6 1 5 wou ld h a v ec o s t$ 2 1 4 . 8m i l l i o n t h e r e b yr e d u c i n gt h ec u r r e n ts i z e o ft h eP o u n d a t i o n by l~o t 5 0p e r c e n ta n di n1973 t h ed i s t r i b u - t i o nu n d e rt h er e d u c e da s s e t sw ou ld b e$ 1 0 , 0 16 , 2 5 7r a t h e rt h a n $ 1 9 , 5 3 5 , 3 9 9w h i c h i t w i l ld i s t r i b u t e . A f t e rt h r e ey e a r st h e r eh a sb e e nt im et oe x am i n e how s e c t i o n4942 w i l lo p e r a t et ou n d e rD i n eo v e r a l lf o u n d a t i o ng r a n t s a n dt h e r eh a sb e e nt h eo p p o r t u n i t yt of u r t h e re x aM i n et h e t i o n so ft h eP e t e r s o nR e p o r t . s u b s cY i b i n gt ot h i s t te~ent ~ F o rt h i sp u r p o se ,t h ef o u n d a t i o n s h a v eh a ca ni n d e pe n d e n ts t u d y p r e p a r e dby D r . t to rm anB . T u r e . ·Th ef i n d i n g sa n dc o n c l u s i o n : ;o f t h a tr e p o r t ,a sb r i e f l ysu rmnar i . z e di ni t sow nJ cmgu2 . g e ,a . r e: " F i r s t ,a n ym in iEmn d i s t r i b u t i o nr u l ew h i c h i g n o r e st h ef o u n d a t i o n ' s ra te o fr e t u r nw i l l h a v ea h ig h l yd i f f e r e n t i a l ,d isc rim in at o r y a n dp o s s i b l y ~ o in p a c t on f o u n d a t i o n s a n d on t h e i rl o n g t e r nc a p a c i t yt os u p p o r t c h a r i t i e s . S e c o n d ,t h ec o n t e n t i o ntha tt h ei n v e s t s e n t p e r f o rm a n c eo f t~ nd t on i sre la ti v e ly p o o r i sb a s e d on i n a d e q u a t ei n f o rma ti o nan d in a p p r o p r i a t es t a t i s t i c a l~ e e t h er e c o r d s o ff o u n d a t i o n sfo rw h i c hd a t aw a s a v a i l a ble i nt h ep r e p a r a t i o no ft h i sr e p o r tc e r t a i n l y d on o ts u p p o r tt h i s ont~nt on, T h i r d , no s o u nd e v i d e n c e~ d ~ ed t os u p p o r tt h ev i eH t h a tt h ea l l e g e d l yp o o ri n v e s t r : 1 e n t p e r f o rm a n c eo ff o u n c a t i o n si sr e l a t e dt ot h e c o n c e n t r a t i o no ft h e i rin v e s tm e n ta s s e t s . F o u r t h ,i t i sn e i t h e rrea l i s t i cn o rr e as o n a h l et oaSSUD et h a ta m ini . r n umdis c r i buti .o r i r u l ew i l lr e s u l ti n . s i g n i f i c a n ti n c r e a s e si n t h er a t eo fr e t u r non f o u n d a t i o ni n v c s t 7 l e n c s . �• F i n a l l y ,t h e( t h i s )r e p o r t ' c o n c l u d c , , 't ~t t h e t a xs a v i n g sa l l e g e d l yre a l i z e dby t h o s ee s c a b l i s h i n gfou n da c i .on s are, i na l lL ikeL ihood, v e r y sm a l l . F o u n d a t i o nd i s t r i b u t i o n st oc h a r i t y h a v er e p r e s e n t e da s i z e a b l e ~o nt o fb e n e f i t s r e l a t i v et ot h ef o r e g o n er e v e n u e s . " F i n a l l y ,t h eP e t e r s o nR e p o r ta s s um e dt h a tt h ec h a r i t a b l e s e r v i c e sw h i c h af o u n d a t i o nn o r n a l l ys u p p o r t sw i l ln o tr i s ei n ~o t a n yf a s t e rt h a nt h eg e n e r a lr a t eo fi n f l a t i o na n df o rt h a t p u r p o s e ~ed ar a t eo fi n f l a t i o no f2 p e r c e n t . Th eR e p o r t ' s .a s su I ! ' . p t i o ni sw ro r i c, f o ri t c om p l e t e l yd i s r e g a r c 3 . st h ef a c tt h a t t h eo r g a n i z a t i o n ss u p p o r t e db yf o u n d a t i o n sh a v el i t t l e p o s s i b i l i t y o fs im i l a rg a i n si np r o d u c t i v i t y . F rom t h ef o r e g o i n g , tw ot h i n g sa r ea p p a r e n t : On eI t h e u n d e r l y i n sp r e n i s eo ft h e6 p e r c e n tm i .n i . rnum d i s t r i b u t i o nr u l e i sp r e d i c a t e du p o nf a l s eassu rnpt . i .on si a n dt .wo, t h i sr u l emus tb e c h a n g e di fp r i v a t ef o u n d a t i o n sa r et o ont n ~ t ob e pe rm i tL e& t o s e r v et h e i rf u n c t i o ni nt h es u p p o r to fc h a r i t a b l eu n de r t ak i n g s , I ft h i si sn o td o n e ,{ ti sc l e a rt h a tt h ep r i n c i p l e ss e t f o r t hi nt h eP e t e r s o n Re o , ~ a n di n c o r p o r a t e di nS e c t i o n4942 . w i l l im p a i rt h ee f f e c t i v e n e s so fa l lf o u n d a t i o n sa n de l im i n at e m any o ft h emt ot h ed e t r i n e n to fc h a r i t y . T h i sp o s i t i o ni sn o t o n l ys u p p o r t e db yt h eg r o u p s' a c c om p l i s h I : ' .e n t sa n de x p e r i e n c eI h u t b yt h eT u r es tU d yw h i c h i n d i c a t e st h a tp r i v a t ef o u n d a t i o n sc a n g i v eab e t t e rr e t u r np e rd o l l a rt oc h a r i t yt h e nt h eF e d e r a l Goverme nt. N oo n eh a ss u g g e s t e di n c r e a s i n gt h eG o v e r nm e n t ' s T o l ei n ' a d v a n c i n gp h i l a n t h r o p y ,w h i c h i sp r e c i s e l yw h a tw i l lh a p p e n i ft h e6 p e r c e n tr u l eo fS e c t i o n 4942 i sn o tr e v i s e dd ow nw a r d . �. .'~, L~ ~ ~ . ~. " . --- r- __ ~. Ap r i l 1 ~ 1976 .~ , , .~ . . . . . - ,~ . , , . ~~. ' :' , ' : . . ~l . ~ . . . . . . -. .. . _ .7 ' - . ._ _ - _~ }::. ~ " 1~ ~ , ~~ H on .R u sse1 B . Long U n ited S ta t e sS en a t e 2 17 O l dS en a te O ff ice B u i l d i ng t on ,D .C. 20510 W a sh ing ~ . c ", - ."---. - -· · ! ; ; t,.: ~ " j . ~~~~~ ~ ~~ ~~ .~ • • ~ ",,,, , ---- - . - .~ -.- . - ., " . ~ , ~ ~ ~ "" _ _ ~. . .,~ .. . __ r.1>-_ 1 - .~ \ ::-":"," =-,. , . J --;. - ~ .. ~" ~ ': -; D ea rS ena t o r Lo ng : A s on eo fth ep r i v a t efound a t i o n srep r es en t e dinthe A dH oc C omm ittee onF am i ly Found a ti o n s ,w eapp rc i a t ed t h eop p o r tu n i t y o fte s tify ingb e for et h eS en a te C onmittec onF in an c e on A p ri l8 . W e w e r ep l e a sed t h a tyouat t en d ed th e o~t t e e s e s s i o n st h a t d ay wh en s t a t e me n t sreg a rd ingp ri v a t eph i l an t h ro py ~~ d p u b l i c ch a r i tie sw e r ep r e s e n ted. I ff u r t h e rd e ta i led i n f o rm a t i o n ou1db eh e l p f ultoyou and you r Comm i t t e e int h o s ede l i be ra t i o n s, p l e a sele tme know. T h es i tu a ti o n nowcon fron tingp r iv a t efoun d a tion sis ev en mor eu rg e n ti ul i gh to fth r e cen t n o~~ e en t by t h eT r e as u r J tha tt h er a t eimpo s edfo rt h ec u r r e n ty e a rv i l lb e 63 /4 pe r cen t . l { yb e st p e rson a lr eg a rd s . S in ce re ly, . • RGM : l g r .. 1 •.,.1-' . . /P " � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby Papers Subject The topic of the resource Charities Family foundations--Michigan Philanthropy and society Description An account of the resource The Russell Mawby papers document the life and work of Michigan-born Russell Mawby from 1928 to the present. Mawby was the Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation for twenty-five years and is recognized for his work in the area of philanthropy in the United States, Latin America, and Europe. The digital collection includes a selection of field notes, speeches, itineraries, and other materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell G. W.K. Kellogg Foundation Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby Papers (JCPA-01). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson Center for Philanthropy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-2012 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby papers, JCPA-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01_1976-04-08_RMawby_SPE Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby testimony on the bill to amend Internal Revenue Code of 1954 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell Description An account of the resource Testimony given for the W. K. Kellogg Foundation on the effects of modifying the charitable distribution requirements imposed upon private foundations, April 8, 1976. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society Family foundations--Michigan W. K. Kellogg Foundation Charities Speeches, addresses, etc. Legislation Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1976-04-08 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1d95be1b5c97a0f7cd525a2a050f9164.pdf 091f6f4ebc1f241ad13495591965b010 PDF Text Text ... ORAL STATEHENT BY RUSSELL G. MAWBY I. INTRODUCTION ~M..- ~~~~~~ s Russell Mawby, President of the W.K. Kellogg Foundation of Battle Creek, Michigan. I am appearing this morning as Chairman of the Legislation and Regulations Committee of the Council on FouJdations, a nonprofit, membership organization whose membe D' some ~ Af o un d a t i o n s from across the country. include ~h ~n W--<- appreciate s the opportunity to testify this morning on S. 464, a bill of vital importance to foundations and their charitable beneficiaries. Wi t h ~he-5tibeGmm4 t~ee~~ermi s sio I will focus on the income payout issue; the bill also ~~ includes three useful technical changes. - These are addressed in my prepared statement. The Importance of Foundations As the members of the panel have already ges e~ ,,;.,....~c_ ' - foundations playa special and vital role in re- sponding to the needs of our society"-.f e . /q u e react quicKly to emerging social concerns; they forefront of adva ncing medical and scientific research; they nurture important new institutions; and y bar after year they also meet basic needs of the American L--:-- . t he i peop I e 1n e1r commun1. t'1es. �- 2 Safeguards on Foundation Performance To insure that foundations faithfully discharge their public trust, Congress has ~ enacted a compre- hensive and detailed set of rules regulating every aspect of foundation operations. In setting up this system of regulations, Congress explicitly and decisively rejected proposals to require foundations to go out of existence after a fixed period. In particular, the income payout requirement was specifically not designed either to erode the purchasing power of foundations or to restrict foundation investment policy. Impact of Present Law on Foundations Unfortunately, the long-term ability of foundations to continue to support the vast array of charitable activities to which they are committed is in serious doubt. Why? Because as a result of the high inflation and high interest rates of recent years, the requirement of present law that foundations distribute their entire current income is contributing to rapid erosion of foundation assets and is distorting foundations' investment policies. Present law requires foundations to distribute annually the greater of 5% of the value of their investment assets or their entire current income. The basic objective of this payout rule -- to insure that every foundation makes �- 3 - a substantial current distribution to charity -- is sound. On the other hand, under current economic conditions the requirement that foundations distribute their entire current ~ -k income ~~~ -~~ -~~~ delayed death sentence. ~ When Congress enacted the income payout rule, current yields on a well-managed, balanced portfolio were significantly below 5%; inflation had averaged bet e~n 2% ~ a 3% over the preceding decade; and stocks were growing in value much more rapidly than inflation. Today interest rates on debt securities like Treasury bills and certificates of deposit range from ~~~~~ 13% to ~most 17%; inflation persists at 10% to 12%; and real stock values have declined sharply over the last decade. Under these radically different economic conditions, the income payout requirement makes it virtually impossible for a foundation to preserve its future grant capability. While colleges, universities, and every other class of charitable organization can take advantage of the high yields available on bonds and other debt investments to help preserve their charitable purchasing power, foundations cannot. If a foundation continues to invest in a diversified {po r t f o liO including substantial debt holdings, it can expect �- 4 to earn high current yields, but will be required to distribute the entire yield and consequently can do nothing to offset inflation. If inflation persists, a foundation with such holdings will find itself shrunk to 1/3 of its present -already diminished -- size in 30 years. On the other hand, a foundation which wishes to preserve its future capacity to serve its charitable beneficiaries must skew its investment decisions to select its holdings largely from those which have low current yields. Unfortunately such investment strategies also carry significantly greater risk than traditional, more conservative and more balanced foundation investments. For example, many investment advisors are urging foundations to buy "growth" ".- stocks, real estate, commodities, and stock of foreign .", corporations, or at least to invest in securities with (./ /" nominal yields well below 5%. In a recent study (attached to my full statement) Professor Peter Williamson of the Tuck School of Business at Dartmouth concluded that this investment strategy was simply too risky for most foundations. Consequently, the income payout rule presents foundations with a genuine dilemma. Traditional investment strategies result in rapid erosion of grant capability while alternative strategies involve inappropriate risks. As a result of these factors, foundation assets in real dollars have fallen dramatically ~~ widespread termination of foundations ~ there has been Meanwh "ie, the rate of creation of new foundations has fallen dramatically __ +- �- S. 464: 5 - The Solution S. 464 is designed to cope squarely with these problems by amending the law to remove the requirement that foundations distribute their entire current income, while leaving in effect the requirement that they distribute at least 5% of their assets' value each year for charitable / uses. The maintenance of the 5% distribution rule represents an appropriate balance between foundations' immediate support of current charitable enterprises and the very real need to maintain the ability of foundations to continue that support in the future. reasonable one. n ee ~ .,~ ~ ~ ro esso~ i The 5 % level is a 1 ~~~ i mson~ ~ indicates that, over the period 1926 to 1979, the real return on a balanced portfolio s u eh a s h os e s e~ e c t e c o l l e ges and univers j,t ::i:e-s was approximately 4.5%. t by In more recent years the real return has been significantly below that figure. Consequently, a payout requirement of 5% fixes foundation distributions to charity somewhat above the full real return on their assets. On the other hand, by eliminating the income payout rule, S. 464 eliminates an artificial constraint imposed on foundation investment decisions by the tax law, and removes unintended by Congress in Foundations 464 as a way of protecting the lon g ability of foundations to serve society. t~ �S t a t em e n tb y MAR 25198 1 RUSSELL G . MAWBY C h a i rm a n , L e g i s l a t i o na n dR e g u l a t i o n sC omm i t t e e C o u n c i lo nF o u n d a t i o n s b e f o r e S u b c omm i t t e eo nT a x a t i o na n dD e b tM a n a g em e n t C omm i t t e eo nF i n a n c e U n i t e dS t a t e sS e n a t e 1 0 : 0 0 a .m . ,M a r c h 3 1 ,1 9 8 1 ~ shin ton, D .C . �SUMMARY Foundations playa special and vital role in responding to the needs of our society. Unfortunately, the ability of foundations to continue to support charitable activities is in serious doubt. From 1972 to 1979 the real value of foundation assets fell by nearly 40%, and from 1970 to 1979 foundation grants fell from 9.2% to 5.2% of all charitable contributions. As a result of high interest rates and high inflation, the requirement of current law that foundations distribute their entire current income has contributed significantly to this erosion of foundations" ability to serve the public. While all other classes of charitable organizations can use the high yields available on certificates of deposit and other debt securities to try to preserve their charitable purchasing power against the inroads of inflation, foundations cannot. Consequently, foundations must either accept the rapid erosion of their grant capability or skew their investment decisions in favor of more risky investment strategies offering the chance o .c i~ appreciation. . I Neither of these damaging results was intended by Congress when it enacted the payout rule in 1969. In :fact, in 1969 Congress specifically rejected a proposal to limpose a fixed duration on foundations' period of e istence~ S. 464 would amend the payout requirement . to eliminate the damaging effects of current law. Specifically, S. 464 would eliminate the requirement that foundations distribute their entire current income while leaving in effect the requirement that they distribute annually 5% of the value of their investment assets. By maintaining the 5% payout requirement the bill would insure that all foundations continue to make substantial current charitable distributions. Indeed, 5% is more than historical real returns on a balanced investment portfolio. At the same time, by eliminating the requirement that foundations distribute their entire current income, S. 464 would give foundations the investment flexibility which they need if they are to preserve their long-term ability to serve the public. �Statement by RUSSELL G. MAWBY before Subcommittee on Taxation and Debt Management of the U.S. Senate Finance Committee 10:00 a.m., March 31, 1981 Washington, D.C. S. 464: I. THE FOUNDATION PAYOUT REQUIREMENT INTRODUCTION My name is Russell Mawby. I am Chairman of the Legislation and Regulations Committee of the Council on Foundations (the "Council")., The Council on Foundations is a nonprofit, membership organization whose members include some 900 private foundations from across the country. The Council appreciates the Subcommittee's invitation to testify on S. 464, a bill of vital importance to foundations and their charitable beneficiaries. Current law requires that private foundations annually distribute to operating charities the greater of 5% of the value of their investment assets or their total current income, that is, total income less long-term capital gains. Because of persistent high interest rates �- 2 - and high rates of inflation, the requirement that foundations pay income above 5% of asset value seriously distorts their investment decisions and reduces the long-term capacity of foundations to support charitable work. s. 464 would eliminate the requirement that all income be paid out, but would not alter the present rule that foundations must each year distribute for charitable purposes at least 5% of their asset value. Because S. 464 preserves this 5% distribution requirement of present law, it insures that foundations will continue substantial current support of charitable activities. At the same time, it would give foundations the investment flexibility which they so desperately need if they are to preserve their continued ability to respond to human needs. II. WHY WE WILL NEED FOUNDATIONS IN THE FUTURE Foundations contributed 9.2% of all charitable gifts from private sources in 1970; by 1979 they accounted for only 5.2% of such gifts. This diminution in the capacity of foundations affects the entire charitable sector. Foundations give charitable, educational, cultural and scientific service organizations an alternative source of funds to government support. Foundations provide venture capital to the philanthropic sector by funding new ideas and new enterprises and by helping new agencies and new groups �- to gain a toe-hold. 3 - Foundations fund many of the sector's research and development efforts, and use their relatively flexible resources to meet society's emergencies and its newly perceived needs. Accordingly, in the measure that foundation grant capacity is less in the future than it is now, operating agencies and philanthropy as a whole will be more vulnerable, less able to react to emergency, less able to take advantage of opportunity, and less able to plan for the future. The early years of foundation giving in the United States offer dramatic testimony to the service foundations render. "I In those years, foundation funds helped free the South of hookworm, virtually eliminated malaria and yellow fever from l the United States, and reformed medical education to rank American health care wi th the world's best. I In later years foundation funding of science supported Goddard's early research in rocket engineering, the construction of the first nuclear accelerator, the development of the electron microscope and the oscilloscope, and research leading to our current knowledge of DNA which some observers term the single most significant advance in biology in this century. When television emerged, private foundations recognized its educational potential and gave massive �- 4 support. All 282 public TV stations received foundation funds for equipment, operation and other services, and one foundation alone committed $293 million to public TV in the 25 years beginning in 1952. Following World War II, foundations mirrored the society in responding to the aspirations of Blacks and other minorities to achieve full status as citizens and participants in the bounty of our society. There was a trend from research toward action in housing, education, employment and inner-city problems. As the decade of the 80's begins, foundations seem to be emphasizing regional approaches, working toward cooperation among themselves and with government. growing emphasis on comm ni~ There is a development and the preserva- tion and furtherance of neighborhoods and communities. At the same time, foundations have continued to support research at private universities and have sought to strengthen traditional institutions in their role as private alternatives to government-funded institutions. Foundations provide technical assistance and financial support to community groups of every kind; they grant funds for the special needs of the local hospital and the local school; they provide services for the preschooler and for the elderly. Foundations continue to support art and cultural activities as well as traditional social service organizations serving youths, the aged and all other groups in our society. �- 5 - The need for foundations to support innovative charitable activities will be as great tomorrow as it is today. It would, therefore, be shortsighted to apply so many foundation resources to current problems at the sacrifice of the capability of foundations to respond in the future as they have in the past. What foundations have done in the past suggests what foundations can do in the future -- if they have sufficient resources. III. FOUNDATION GRANT CAPABILITY IS RAPIDLY ERODING However, the rapid erosion of foundation grant capability in recent years threatens to eliminate foundations as a vital part of American philanthropy. This decline in the real value of foundation assets, and thus foundation grant capability, is documented by data presented in the most recent edition of The Foundation Directory and summarized in the chart on page 6. The chart shows the changes, for all foundations with assets of over $1 million, in both the nominal and real value of assets over the period from 1965 through 1977. These foundations account for 93% of all foundation assets and 92% of all foundation grants. As the chart indicates, foundations enjoyed a significant increase in both the nominal and real value of their assets from 1965 through 1972. However, from 1972 to 1977 the nominal value of foundation assets increased only slightly and the real value fell by 29.2%. �6 �- 7 While comprehensive data such as that contained in The Foundation Directory are not available for the period since 1977, data collected by the Council on Foundations in a recent survey of its members indicate that the decline in the real value of foundation assets has continued. From 1977 through 1979 the real value of the assets of the foundations surveyed declined by approximately 11%. Thus over the eight year period from 1972 through 1979 the real value of foundation assets fell by almost 40%. If the erosion continues at this rate, in twenty years the ability of foundations to support charitable activities will be only a quarter of what it is today. As these figures suggest, what is at stake is not the continued existence of ~ particular foundation, but rather the continued ability of foundations as a whole to support important charitable works. Because these figures take into account gifts of additional assets to both existing and newly created foundations, they demonstrate dramatically that the flow of new capital into the foundation sector has been insufficient to offset the erosion of the existing assets of foundations. In fact, as a result of the restrictions imposed on private foundations by the Tax Reform Act of 1969, there has been very widespread termination of foundations while the rate of creation of new foundations has fallen dramatically. This trend has been clearly documented in a study prepared for the National Commission on Private �- 8 Philanthropy and Public Needs, the results of which are summarized in the chart on page 9. The study examined the rate of creation and dissolution of foundations during the period from 1968 through 1972 in twelve key states, which together account for over 50% of all foundations. It demonstrated a sharp decline in the rate of creation of new foundations from 1968 through 1970. Over the same period, dissolutions of private foundations increased dramatically, to a level far in excess of the "birth rate" of new foundations. This data on foundation "birth" and "death" rates, as well as the sharp decline in the real value of total foundation assets, clearly show that new money flowing into the foundation sector is insufficient to offset the rapid decline of existing foundation assets. IV. CONGRESS NEVER INTENDED TO REDUCE FOUNDATION CAPABILITY The experience of foundations throughout the country indicates that the present requirement that foundations distribute annually all of their income is a major factor contributing to this alarming erosion of foundation grant capability. Indeed, foundations are being forced to spend themselves out of existence by their inability to reinvest any of the income they earn in excess of the 5% minimum payout amount. It is absolutely clear that Congress never intended that the payout requirement have this effect. During the decade preceding enactment of the payout requirement in 1969, inflation averaged only 1.9%. �- 9 - Fo u nda t ions Esta bl ishe d/T erm inated, 1968· 1972 . Cumu lativ e of 12 States - - - - - New Foundations Est ab lished 1,300 1.200 1,100 - - - - Existing Foundations Terminated ,, \ \ \ ,, , \ \ 1.000 900 \ , \ \ \ \ , \ 800 700 \ \ \ \ \ \ \ 600 , \, \ \ \ \ 500 \ \ 400 \ \ 300 200 100 '68 \ '69 \ \ \ \ ,-------- ......... -- \ '70 '71 - ........ ' 72 Year F rom "Anal ysis of F ou nd at ion Ce nter Da ta o n Crea tion, Di!<.<olution an d Recl assifIca tion of Prrvare F ounda tions, " Washingto n, D.C. , Oct ober 25. 1974. p rep are d by Cap lin &. Dry sdale and The F ou nda ti on Center in Washington, D.C. �- 10 It is not surprising, therefore, that in formulating the payout rule neither Treasury nor the Congress devoted significant attention to the effect which the required distribution of all current income would have in a highly inflationary environment. The Congressional debate makes it clear, however, that the Congress did not intend the payout rule to require that foundations distribute at so fast a rate as to erode the real value of foundation assets. Senator Percy, the leading sponsor of the minimum payout provision finally adopted, made this clear in the following statement: The percentage should not be so high as to amount to a delayed death sentence. A foundation with a well-managed investment portfolio should be able to maintain its size and to stay abreast of changes in the value of the dollar. However, the current needs of our society for philanthropic funds are so great that I consider it inappropriate to permit foundations to grow, in size, without making an adequate current contribution to philanthropy. A payout percentage which will permit a well-managed foundation portfolio to maintain its size while making a productive contribution to charity, represents an equitable balance between the pressure of society's current needs and the interest of future generations. Congo Rec., Nov. 24, 1969, S.15950 (Emphasis added.) Congress has demonstrated a continuing commitment to reevaluate the payout requirement to preserve this principle of nan equitable balance." For example, in 1976 Congress concluded that the 6% minimum distribution requirement, coupled with the requirement that this minimum distribution percentage be adjusted annually to reflect any increases in prevailing interest rates, "could have damaging effects on the continuing viability of many foundations." In response, �-1 1- C o n g r e s sr e d u c e d . t h er a t et o5% a n de l im i n a t e dt h ep r e v i o u s l y r e q u i r e da n n u a la d j u s tm e n t . I n c r e a s e si ni n f l a t i o nu r g et h en e e df o ra f u r t h e r r e e v a l u a t i o no ft h ep a y o u tr u l e ,f o ru n d e ri n f l a t i o n a r y c o n d i t i o n st h et o t a li n c om ep a y o u tr u l enow m ak e s i t v i r t u a l l yim p o s s i b l ef o r" af o u n d a t i o nw i t h aw e l l -m a n a g e d i n v e s tm e n tp o r t f o l i o . . . t om a i n t a i n i t ss i z ea n ds t a y a b r e a s to fc h a n g e si nt h ev a l u eo ft h ed o l l a r . " C u r r e n t i n f l a t i o nr a t e so f 10% o rmo r e m ak e n e c e s s a r ya r e v i s i o no f t h er u l et oe l im i n a t et h er e q u i r em e n tt h a ta l li n c om eb e p a i do u t . V . THE EFFECT OF THE PAYOUT REQU IREMENT INAN INFLAT IONARY ENV IRONMENT I ti sc l e a rt h a tC o n g r e s sd i dn o ti n t e n db yt h e i n c om ep a y o u tr u l et oim p o s et h e" d e l a y e dd e a t hs e n t e n c e "i t s p e c i f i c a l l yr e n o u n c e di ns e t t i n gt h ep e r c e n t a g ep a y o u t . Wh en C o n g r e s se n a c t e dt h ei n c om ep a y o u tr u l e ,c u r r e n ty i e l d s o na w e l l -m a n a g e d , b a l a n c e dp o r t f o l i ow e r e s i g n i f i c a n t l y b e l ow 5% ;i n f l a t i o nh a da v e r a g e db e tw e e n 2% a n d 3% o v e rt h e p r e c e d i n gd e c a d e ;a n ds t o c k sw e r e g r ow i n gi nv a l u e mu ch mo r e r a p i d l yt h a ni n f l a t i o n . T o d a yi n t e r e s tr a t e so nd e b ts e c u r i t i e s l i k eT r e a s u r yb i l l sa n dc e r t i f i c a t e so fd e p o s i tr a n g ef r om w e l lo v e r 13% t oa lm o s t17% ;i n f l a t i o np e r s i s t sa t10% t o12% ; a n dr e a ls t o c kv a l u e sh a v ed e c l i n e ds h a r p l yo v e rt h el a s td e c a d e . Th ee f f e c to ft h ei n c om ep a y o u tr e q u i r em e n th a sc h a n g e d �- 12 radically as the rate of inflation has risen from the 2% level prevailing in the 1960's to the 10% or higher level of today. This change is attributable to the fact that in a period of high inflation the nominal return on all investments increases. In the case of bonds and other debt securities, this increased nominal return takes the form of higher interest rates. However, only a fraction of this higher nominal return represents real income to the bondholder. The remainder is in fact merely a replacement of that part of the bondholder's capital consumed by inflation. Yet the total income payout rule requires that all this nominal income must be distributed. When examined in this perspective, it is clear that a payout rule that requires foundations during a period of inflation to distribute the entire nominal return on their assets is the practical equivalent of a requirement that they annually distribute a portion of their corpus. The inevitable effect of such a rule is to reduce their future grant capability and, continued over time, to reduce them to virtual incapacity. To the extent that foundations hold securities that reflect current high interest rates such as certificates of deposit, the present requirement that they distribute all current income has precisely this effect. The entire nominal return on such debt investments generally comes in the form of current income. Foundations must distribute the entire nominal return and can do nothing to offset the inflationary erosion of their assets and their future grant capabilities. �- 13 The manner in which rising inflation rates fundamentally alter the effect of the income payout requirement has been clearly demonstrated in a study prepared by the Charles Stewart Mott Foundation of Flint, Michigan. The Mott Foundation analyzed the effect of the current income payout requirement on the performance of a typical foundation portfolio with initial assets of $1,000,000 under conditions of 2% inflation and 10% inflation. For purposes of the analysis it was assumed that the foundation's assets would be invested 60% in common stock and 40% in bonds -- a portfolio mix reflecting the traditional investment strategy of foundations and other endowed charities -- and that the rates of return on these investments would be comparable to historic rates of return over the period from 1926 through 1978. The results of this analysis are presented in the chart on page 14. (Figures supporting the chart are included as Appendix 1). Example I assumes a 2% rate of inflation and depicts the changes in both the purchasing power of the foundation's grants and the real value of the foundation's assets over a 30 year period. This example corresponds roughly to the conditions that prevailed in the period before Congress enacted the 1969 payout re ~rement. Given this low rate of inflation, under present payout rules the real value of the foundation's grants falls by only $3,000 over 30 years -- from $50,000 to $47,000 -- and �EXAMPLE I T\\·o Pe rrcn r Inflation with Current Payout. 51 .0 00.000 1!l ilO If II I 199 0 S 48 .00 0 200 0 ~ ,~ n 1.r ll) l \ ::;')fj:.!.l HIlI :54 7 .0 0 0 20 10 - 14 - , ir ~ tnt Value of the Securities Portfolio" Purchasing Power of Income Distributed" ~ t~ . n 19 HO 19 80 s' ln.ooo ~ ~ (See Table III· Portfolio II) EXAMPLE II Ten Percent Inflation with Current Payout Requirement Value of the Securities Portfolio Purchasing Power of Income Distributed :;;88.0 00 S 1.0 00.000 .% 1.000 :3G90.000 542.0 0 0 D 1~ 19 90 20 0 0 :W lO D $477, 000 529. 0 0 0 1!)90 19 80 (See Table IV· Portfolio I) 20 0 0 D 5:l29.000 2010 EXAMPLE III Ten Percent Inflation with Five Percent Straight Payout Requirement Purchasing Power of Income Distributed Value of the Securities Portfolio S 1.000,000 "' ;iO .OOO 1980 S49.00 0 548.000 1!190 2000 "Porr Iolio Compositi on : fiO'7. stocks. 40'7(. bonds In itial Portfolio: :31 million :598 2 .0 0 0 $%4 .000 S!)4 7 .0 0 0 2000 2010 547.000 2010 1980 (See Table IV· Portfolio II) 1990 �- 15 the real value of the foundation's assets declines from $1,000,000 to $943,000. However, as shown by Example II -- which more nearly corresponds to today's conditions -- this picture changes drastically when the rate of inflation rises to 10%. The purchasing power of the foundation's grants is somewhat higher in the early years of the 30 year period precisely because the foundation is forced by the current income payout rule to distribute part of its corpus. However, because of this erosion of corpus the purchasing power of the foundation's grants falls rapidly. By the end of the 30 year period the real value of these grants is only $29,000. Over the same period, the real value of the foundation'Os assets has fallen from $1,000,000 to $329,000. Finally, Example III shows that the proposed modification of the payout requirement would significantly reduce this erosion of foundation grant capability . in an inflationary economy. Under the proposed payout requirement the foundation would be required to distribute an amount equal to 5% of the value of its investment assets and could use income in excess of 5% to preserve the charitable purchasing power of its grants. Under this rule the foundation would be able largely to offset the effect of continued 10% inflation. Indeed, the purchasing power of the foundation's grants would be only $3,000 less at the end of the 30 year period than at the beginning, having fallen from $50,000 to $47,000. �- 16 I ti sa l s oim p o r t a n tt op o i n to u tt h a ti f , a sw e a l lh o p e ,t h er a t eo fi n f l a t i o nf a l l ss h a r p l yi n c om i n gy e a r s ,t h em o d i f i e dp a y o u tr u l eem b o d i e di nS . 464 w i l lc o n t i n u et oi n s u r et h a tf o u n d a t i o n sm ak e s u b s t a n t i a l c u r r e n td i s t r i b u t i o n st oc h a r i t y . I fi n f l a t i o nf a l l s ,d a t a o nh i s t o r i ci n v e s tm e n tr e t u r n sm ak e s c l e a rt h a tt h en om i n a l r e t u r no nf o u n d a t i o ni n v e s tm e n t sw i l la l s of a l l . F o re x am p l e , i f i n f l a t i o nf a l l sb a c kt o2% p e ry e a r ,t h en om i n a lr e t u r no n t h ef o u n d a t i o n ' si n v e s tm e n t sw i l lf a l lt or o u g h l y6 .5% ,o f w h i c ha p p r o x im a t e l y3 .5% w o u l db ei nt h ef o rmo fc u r r e n t i n c om e . B e c a u s et h ef o u n d a t i o n ' sc u r r e n ti n c om ew o u l db e w e l lb e l ow 5% ,e l im i n a t i o no ft h er e q u i r em e n tt h a tf o u n d a t i o n s d i s t r i b u t ec u r r e n ti n c om ei ne x c e s so f 5% w o u l dh a v ea b s o l u t e l y. no e f f e c to nt h ef o u n d a t i o n ' sr e q u i r e dp a y o u t . Th ef o u n d a t i o n w o u l d s t i l lb er e q u i r e dt od i s t r i b u t e 5% p e ry e a r-p r e c i s e l y t h es am er e s u l tt h a tw o u l do b t a i nu n d e rc u r r e n tl aw . V I . THE INCOME PAYOUT RULE D ISTORTS FOUNDAT ION INVESTMENT DEC IS IONS I ni n f l a t i o n a r yp e r i o d s ,t h e .r e q u i r em e n tt h a t f o u n d a t i o n sp a y o u tt h e i re n t i r ec u r r e n ti n c om eh a sa n o t h e r h a rm f u le f f e c tn o ti n t e n d e dby C o n g r e s s-i t d i s t o r t s f o u n d a t i o ni n v e s tm e n td e c i s i o n sa n de n c o u r a g e sf o u n d a t i o n s t oa b a n d o nt r a d i t i o n a l ,p r u d e n ti n v e s tm e n ts t r a t e g i e si n f a v o ro fmo r e r i s k yi n v e s tm e n t s . Th em e c h a n i sm t h r o u g h w h i c h t h i so c c u r si sq u i t es im p l e . U n d e rc u r r e n tl awa f o u n d a t i o nt h a tw i s h e s t op r e s e r v ei t sf u t u r eg r a n tc a p a b i l i t y h a sa s t r o n gi n c e n t i v et ol im i ti t sc u r r e n ti n c om et oa n �- 17 amount equal to the 5% minimum distribution requirement, and to seek to realize the remainder of its total return in the form of long-term capital appreciation. To accomplish this goal, the foundation must invest a greater portion of its total assets in stocks and other assets offering the possibility of capital appreciation. However, it is well established that the risk associated with such equity investments is significantly greater than that associated with bonds and other debt securities. Indeed, a frequently, cited historical study of investments compares standard indices and concludes that common stock investments have involved risk four times as great as bond investments.* -I Moreover, there are risks in anY"lOng tterm investment strategy which forces foundations toward an unbalanced approach. It is better if foundations are free to adQpt a prudent balanced strategy combining some fixed income investments and some equity investments. Statistical data are not available to suggest the extent to which foundations have adopted such higher risk investment strategies. However, it is known that investment advisors are recommending such strategies to their foundation clients; suggesting, for example, such nontraditional investments as call options, deep discount bonds, commodities, timber holdings and foreign equity investments. It is also clear that the present payout rule provides a strong incentive for foundations to accept this advice. By thus encouraging foundations to assume greater * Ibbotson and Sinquefield, "Stocks, Bonds, Bills, and Inflation (1926-1978)," p. 23. �- 18 risk, the present payout rule is further jeopardizing their future grant capability. Commenting on this dilemma, Professor of Business Administration, J. Peter Williamson of Dartmouth College and the University of Virginia writes, "Long-term bonds, and from time to time short-term instruments, offer high current income coupled with declining real capital value. Common stocks offer significantly lower current income coupled with a reduced likelihood of loss of real capital value. The foundation seeking the greatest chance of maintaining the purchasing power of its investments will be driven to the lowest yielding cornmon stocks, which generally constitute the most risky securities available. The foundation choosing a prudent balance between risk and return has been forced in recent years to accept a higher current income and a substantial deterioration in real capital value. What the distribution requirement in Section 4942 has aone is to create a situation in which the only chance a private foundation has of minimizing capital depreciation is to pursue an extraordinarily high risk investment strategy. Any reasonable balance between risk and return must lead inevitably to erosion of the real value of the portfolio. There is no logic in a distribution rule that forces this choice upon a private foundation. If the purpose of the legislation is to prevent this imbalance between growth and distribution, then the minimum investment return rule alone would serve that purpose without the perverse results of the requirement that current income be distributed," A copy of a recent study by Professor Williamson of the impact of the payout requirement on foundations is attached as Exhibit II. �- 19 W h i l e c o l l e g e s ,u n i v e r s i t i e sa n da l lo t h e rt a x e x em p ti n s t i t u t i o n sc a nt a k ea d v a n t a g eo ft h eh i g hy i e l d s a v a i l a b l eon b o n d sa n do t h e rs im i l a ri n v e s tm e n t st od e f e n d t h e i rc h a r i t a b l ep u r c h a s i n gp ow e ra g a i n s ti n f l a t i o nw h i l e s t i l lm a i n t a i n i n g a na d e q u a t ec u r r e n tc h a r i t a b l ep r o g r am , f o u n d a t i o n sc a n n o t . Th er e q u i r em e n tt h a ta l li n c om eb e d i s t r i b u t e dh a sb r o u g h ta b o u t ,t h e r e f o r e ,a na r t i f i c i a l a n dw h o l l yu n i n t e n d e d-i n v e s tm e n tc o n s t r a i n tw h i c hi s d i s t o r t i n gf o u n d a t i o ni n v e s tm e n td e c i s i o n sa n dw h i c hs h o u l d b ee l im i n a t e d . V I I . EFFECT OF THE PROPOSED PAYOUT RULE ON FOUNDAT ION GRANTS U n d e rt h ep a y o u tr u l eem b o d i e di nS . 464 f o u n d a t i o n sw o u l dc o n t i n u et ob er e q u i r e dt od i s t r i b u t ea n am o u n t e q u a lt o5% o ft h ev a l u eo ft h e i ri n v e s tm e n ta s s e t s . How ev e r , t h e yw o u l d n o tb er e q u i r e dt od i s t r i b u t et h e i re n t i r e c u r r e n ti n c om e . Th e 5% d i s t r i b u t i o nr e q u i r em e n tw o u l d e n s u r et h a tf o u n d a t i o n sc o n t i n u et om ak e s u b s t a n t i a lc u r r e n t d i s t r i b u t i o n st oc h a r i t y . I n d e e d ,h i s t o r i c a l l yt h i s5% d i s t r i b u t i o nr e q u i r em e n te x c e e d st h ea v e r a g er e a li n c om ew h i c h af o u n d a t i o nc o u l dh a v ee a r n e do v e rt h ep a s t 50 y e a r so na b a l a n c e dw e l l -m a n a g e dp o r t f o l i oo fs t o c k sa n db o n d s . P r o f e s s o r W i l l i am s o n ' s r e c e n ts t u d y ,r e f e r r e dt oa b o v e ,i n d i c a t e st h a t o v e rt h ep e r i o df r om1926 t h r o u g h1978 t h er e a lt o t a lr e t u r n ( c o n s i d e r i n gb o t hi n c om ea n dc a p i t a la p p r e c i a t i o n ) on a b a l a n c e d i n v e s tm e n tp o r t f o l i oi n c l u d i n gb o t he q u i t ya n dd e b ti n v e s tm e n t s w a s b e tw e e n4 . 0a n d4 .5% . W h e t h e r m e a s u r e d o v e rt h ep a s t5 4 �- 20 - years, 30 years or 5 years the average real return on a well balanced portfolio has been less than 5%. Thus, a payout requirement of 5% will ensure that foundations distribute to charity the entire real return they can expect from their invested assets -- and probably a little more. The extent to which the proposed payout rate would result in a short-term decline in foundation grants is difficult to predict. Certainly there will be some decline. But the scale of this decline should be seen in perspective. It is clear that certain classes of foundation grants would be unaffected by the change in the payout requirement. Grants by company-sponsored foundations, for example, would be unaffected. These foundations normally hold small endowments and pay grants primarily out of current contributions received from the sponsoring company. There are also substantial amounts distributed by other foundations that are essentially mechanisms for current charitable distributions of individual donations. These will be unaffected. Some endowed independent foundations may well choose to continue to pay amounts somewhat in excess of 5% of the value of their investment assets, either as a matter of program choice or because they are required by their charters to payout all of their income and/or to payout principal amounts, as well. In the aggregate, all independent foundations pay out now about 5.7% of asset value each year. If all independent �- 21 foundation giving was reduced to the 5% minimum investment return -- and, for the reasons stated above, the decline would not be the full amount -- the result would be a decrease in immediate contributions to the philanthropic sector of about one-half percent of total charitable giving, since all foundation grants account for only about 5% of all private giving for charitable purposes. This short-term reduction in distributions is clearly justified as a way of insuring that foundations can continue support in the future. Indeed, as we have noted earlier, the philanthropic sector would over time recoup the immediate reductions as payout increased as a result of foundations preserving their endowment value instead of quickly distributing corpus at VIII. cc~ er te rates. TECHNICAL AND ADMINISTRATIVE AMENDMENTS In addition to its principal provision amending the foundation payout requirement, S. 464 contains three technical amendments which will eliminate unnecessary administrative burdens imposed on foundations by current law. The Council on Foundations strongly supports the enactment of each of these amendments. Exception to Foundation Record-keeping Requirement For Small Grants Current law requires that a foundation making grants to organizations not recognized as public charities comply with detailed record-keeping and reporting require- �- 22 ments. These so-called "expenditure responsibility" require- ments are particularly burdensome for small foundations which often lack the administrative resources to comply with the requirements, and which as a result are simply unable to make many worthwhile grants. Larger foundations also frequently decide to forego small grants to nonpublic charities in order to avoid this burden on their administrative resources. As a result of this requirement, many small-scale but highly beneficial charitable activities cannot attract the foundation support they need to survive. In practical terms, the cost of this requirement must be measured in terms of the summer youth program, the community cleanup, the local drug abuse prevention effort which never happens because of a lack of foundation support. To eliminate this clearly unintended result, s. 464 would amend current law to provide a $10,000 de minimis exception under which a foundation would not be required to comply with the expenditure responsibility requirements if its grants, along with those of all related foundations, to a single grantee did not exceed $10,000 in a given year. This amendment would not in any way affect the substantive rules which require that every foundation grant, large or small, go to support a recognized charitable activity. Nor would it relax the expenditure responsibility requirements for large grants, where they are justified by the large amounts of money involved. Instead, this amendment �- 23 - would merely recognize that the record-keeping and reporting requirements which are appropriate for large grants are counterproductive when applied to small grants. A Workable Definition of "Family Member" The private foundation rules impose severe restrictions on the business relationships which may exist between a foundation and its "disqualified persons," and even inadvertent violations of these restrictions trigger substantial penalty taxes. Under current law, "disqualified persons" with respect to a foundation include substantial contributors to the foundation and all of their lineal descendants, regardless of how many generations separate these descendants from the original contributor. This rule can impose a great administrative burden on private foundations, the magnitude of which increases geometrically with each passing generation. For example, many of the country's largest foundations were established early in this century, and the managers of these foundations must keep track of hundreds of lineal descendants of substantial contributors in order to avoid inadvertent violations of the foundation rules. To eliminate this waste of foundation resources without undermining the effectiveness of the foundation rules, S. 464 would amend the definition of "family members," and thus of "disqualified persons," to include only children and grandchildren, rather than all lineal descendants, of �substantial contributors. 24 In those few cases in which more remote descendants continue to be actively involved in the operation of the foundation, they will still be treated as disqualified persons by virtue of being foundation managers or the children or grandchildren of such managers. Thus the proposed change will create no potential for abuse, and will increase the amount of foundation resources available to support charitable activities. Elimination of Unreasonable Administrative Requirement [TO FOLLOW] �- 25 IX. CONCLUSION Foundations strongly support the basic objective of the payout rule and they believe that the 5% minimum payout requirement should be maintained. In supporting S. 464, foundations seek only the elimination of the requirement that they payout such income as they receive above 5%. The ability of foundations to support vital charitable activities in the future as they have in the past is threatened by the present requirement that foundations distribute their entire current income. Elimination of this requirement would contribute significantly to the preservation of the future grant-making capability .of foundations. We must expect that the needs of the future will be as compelling as are the concerns of today. If we permit foundation endowments to erode, the charitable sector will be unable to calIon foundations as alternatives to government at special times of need. American charity then will have lost much of its flexibility and perhaps, over time, some of its freedom. Congress should enact S. 464 to forestall these consequences, which have resulted from inflation and which were completely unforeseen when the payout provision was enacted in 1969. �r I I APPEND IXI TABLEI TABLEI I To t a lAnnu a l Inv e s tm en tR e tu rn s ( 1 9 2 6-1 9 7 8 ) To t a lAnnu a l Inv e s tm en tR e tu rn s ( 1 9 6 9-1 9 7 8 ) Nom in a l Annu a l R e tu rn C lass (m e an l 8 .9% CommonS to ck s LongT ennCo rp .B ond s 4 .0% S e cu r i ty ennGov t . Bond s LongT U .S .T r e a su ryB i l l s 3 .20 /0 2 .5% Annu a l In f l a t ion (m e an l 2 .5 2 .5 2 .5 2 .5 R e a l Annu a l R e tu rn s (m e an ) 6 .4% 1 .5% 0 .7% 0 .0% = Nom in a l Annu a l R e tu rn C l a s s (m e an ) 3 .2% CommonS to ck s L o n gT ennCo rp .B o n d s 5 .8% ennG o v t .B o n d s L o n gT 5 .1% i l l s U .S .T r e a su ryB 5 .9% S e cu r i ty Annu a l In f l a t ion (m e an ) 6 .7 6 .7 6 .7 6 .7 R e a l Annu a l R e tu rn s (m e an ) · 3 . 5% -0 . 9% -1 . 6% · 0 .8% Sou r c e :S to ck s , Bond s .B i l l s . and In f l a t ion :H i s to r i c a lR e tu rn s (1926 -78 )I bbo t son& Sinqu e f i e ld .1979. TABLEI I I E f f e c to fa2%R a t eo fIn f l a t iono n6 0%S to ck 4 0%Bond Po r t fo l io sw i th ayou t s D i f f e r en t In com eP Th efo l low ingt ab l e si l lu s t r a t e th e e f f e c to fa2%r a t e o f econ s t an tdo l l a rpo r t fo l iov a lu eandth e in f l a t iono nth pu r ch a s ingpow e ro fin com ed ev e lop edf romth r e e6 0% s t o c k ·4 0%bondpo r t fo l io s .Th epo r t fo l io sa r einv e s t ed t op rov id eato t a lr e tu rno f6 . 8% ,w i thth e bond sr e tu rn ing 5%andth es to ck s8%p e ry e a r .Th e 8%r e tu rnf r om s to ck si sd e r iv ed5%f r omc ap i t a lapp r e c i a t ionand3% a shin com e .Inth ef i r s tpo r t fo l io ,th e c a shin com e f r omc r e tu rno f3 . 8%i sl e s sth anth em in imum 5%p ayou t r equ i r em en t .Th e r e fo r e,s om e en c ro a chm en to fth ep o r t f o l i o mu s to c cu randth e e f f e c to fth i sen c ro a chm en ti sshown inPo r t fo l ioI I .Po r t fo l ioIdo e sno tr e f l e c tth i sen c ro a ch m en t . I nth es e condpo r t fo l io,5%o fth ev a lu ei sd i s t r ibu t ed and1 .8%r e inv e s t ed6 0%s to ck s-4 0%bond se a rn inga t th es am er a t e so fr e tu rn ;andi nth e th i rd ,th e r e a lr e tu rn o f4 . 8%i sd i s t r ibu t edand2%i sr e inv e s t ed6 0%s t o c k s · 4 0%bond se a rn inga tth es am er a t e so fr e tu rn . A s sump t ion s : (1 )A l lpo r t fo l io sb eg inw i th$1 ,000 ,000inv e s t ed6 0% i n s to ck st or e tu rn8% ( 6%r e a lr e tu rnand2%in f l a t ion ) and4 0%bond st or e tu rn5%(3%r e a lr e tu rnand2% in f l a t ion ) . PORTFOL IOI A l l In com eD i s t r ibu t edI Yea r 19 80 1990 2000 2010 In com e $ 38 . 000 51 ,069 68 .632 92 .236 Pu r ch a s ingPow e ro f i s t r ibu t ed In com e In com eD D i s t r ibu t ed ( 1 9 8 0Do l l a r s ) S3 8 .000 $ 3 8 .00 0 51 ,069 41 , 8 9 4 68 .632 46 . 1 8 7 92 .236 5 0 .9 21 (1 )Th ec ap i t a lapp r e ci a t ionf romth es to ck so f5%p e ry ea ri sa s sum ed to b er e inv e s t ed :60% b a ck in tos to ck sand 40% in tobond s th e r ebym a in t a in ing th e60%-40% s to ckbondr a t io . PORTFOL IOI I 5%D i s t r ibu t ed ,1 . 8%R e inv e s t ed1 Y e a r 1980 1990 2000 2 01 0 Nom in a l V a lu ein V a lu e 1980Do l l a r s ,000 .000 $1 .000 .000 $1 9 80 .5 64 1 .195 .302 1 .428 .748 9 61 .5 06 1 . 707 .786 94 2 .81 9 In com e $38 .000 45 .421 54 .292 64 .896 Pu r ch a s ingPow e ro f To t a l In com eD i s t r ibu t ed D i s t r ibu t ed (1 980Do l l a r s ) $50 .000 $50 , 0 0 0 59 .765 4 9 . 0 2 8 71 ,437 4 8 . 0 7 5 85 .389 4 7 . 1 4 1 (1 )Th e to t a lr e tu rni s6 .8% f romt h epo r t fo l io in v e s t ed 60% in s to ck sa ta8% r e tu rnt2%in f l a t ion )and40%inbond sa ta5% r e tu rn .O fth eto t a lr e tu rno f6 .8% . 5% i sd i s t r ibu t ed .l e av ing 1 .8% t ob er e inv e s t ed . er a t eo fin f l a t ioni sa s sum edt ob e2%p e ry e a r . (2 )Th ( 3 )T h ed iv id end sf r oms to ck sp rov id eac a shi n c om e a rk e tv a lu eo f3%andth ein t e r e s t y i e ldb a s edo nm f r ombond sp rov id e sac a shin com ey i e ldb a s edo n m a rk e tv a lu eo f5%f o ra nov e r a l lc a shin com ey i e l d to ck s ·4 0%bond s ) . o f3 . 8%( 6 0%s ( 4 ) I t i sa s sum edth a t bond sw i l lp rov id ear e a lr e tu rno f an h i s to r i c a l 3% ,a l thoughth i si ssom ewh a th igh e rth r e tu rn s . V a lu ein Nom in a l V a lu e 1980 Do l l a r s S I ,OOO .OOO $1 ,000 .000 1 ,343 .916 1 .102 .480 1 ,806 .111 1 , 215 .461 2 .427 .263 1 ,340 .021 PORTFOL IOI I I R e a lR e tu rno f4 . 8%D i s t r ibu t ed\2% R e inv e s t ed Y e a r 1980 1990 2000 2010 Nom in a l V a lu ein V a lu e 1980Do l l a r s $1 .000 .000 $1 ,000.000 1 ,218 .994 1 ,000 .000 1 ,485 .947 1 ,000 .000 1 ,811 .362 1 ,000 .000 In com e $38 .000 46 .322 56 .466 68 .832 Pu r ch a s ingPow e ro f To t a l In com eD i s t r ibu t ed D i s t r ibu t ed ( 1 980Do l l a r s ) $48 .000 5 48 . 0 0 0 5 8 .51 2 4 8 . 0 0 0 71 .325 48 . 0 0 0 86 .945 4 8 . 0 0 0 t 1 )Th e po r t fo l io' sr e a lr e tu rni s4 .8% w h i ch i sth eto t a lr e tu rno f 6 .8% m inu s 2% in f l a t ion .O f th et o t a lr e tu rno f6 .8 % .4 .8% i s d i s t r ibu t edl e av ing2% tob er e inv e s t ed . �TABLEIV E f f e c to fa10%R a t eo fIn f l a t ionon60%S to ck - 40%BondPo r t fo l io sw i th ayou t s D i f f e r en t In com eP PORTFOL IOI Th efo l low ingt ab l e s i l lu s t r a t e th e e f f e c to fa10%r a t eo f in f l a t ionon th econ s t an tdo l l a rpo r t fo l iov a lu eandth e pu r ch a s ingpow e ro fin com ed ev e lop edf romth r e e60% s to ck-40%bondpo r t fo l io s .Th epo r t fo l io sa r einv e s t ed to p rov id eato t a lr e tu rno f14 .8% ,w i th th ebond sr e tu rn ing 13%andth es to ck s16%p e ry e a r .Inth e f i r s tpo r t fo l io ,a l l in com ei sd i s t r ibu t ed ;inth es e cond5%o fth ev a lu ei s d i s t r ibu t edand9 .8%r e inv e s t ed60%s to ck s-40%bond s e a rn inga tth es am er a t e so fr e tu rn ;andinth eth i rd .th e r e a lr e tu rno f4 .8%i sd i s t r ibu t edand10%i sr e inv e s t ed 60%s to ck s-40% bond se a rn inga tth e s am er a t e so fr e tu rn . A l l In com eD i s t r ibu t ed1 Y e a r V a lu e in Nom in a l V a lu e 1980Do l l a r s 1980 $ 1 . 0 0 0 . 0 0 0 5 1 . 0 0 0 . 0 0 0 1 9 9 0 690 . 449 1 . 790 . 848 2 0 0 0 3 . 207 .136 476 . 720 2 010 5 .743 .491 329 .151 P u r c h a s i n gPow e ro f In com eD i s t r i b u t e d ( 1 9 8 0D o l lB J 'S ) In com e D i s t r i b u t e d In com e s88 . 0 0 0 S8 8 . 0 0 0 157 .595 2 82 .228 505 .427 1 57 .595 282 .228 505 .427 588 .000 60 .760 4 2 . 9 5 1 28 .965 (1 ) Th ec ap i t a lapp r e c i a t ionf romth es t o c k so f 10% p e ry e a ri s a s sum edto b er e inv e s t ed :60%b a c kin tos to ck sand40% in to bond sth e r ebym a i n t a i n i n g th e60%-40%s to ckbondr a t io . A s sump t ion s : (1 )A l lpo r t fo l io sb eg inw i th$1 .000 ,000inv e s t ed60%in s to ck stor e tu rn16% (6%r e a lr e tu rnand10% in f l a t ion ) and40%inbond stor e tu rn13%(3%r e a lr e tu rnand 10%in f l a t ion ) . PORTFOL IOI I 5%D i s t r ibu t ed ,9 .8%R e inv e s t ed1 (2 )Th er a t eo fin f l a t ioni sa s sum edtob e10%p e ry e a r . Y e lU ' 1980 1 990 2000 2 01 0 (3 )Th ed iv id end sf roms to ck sp rov id eac a shin com e a s edonm a rk e tv a lu eo f6%andth ein t e r e s t y i e ldb f rombond sp rov id e sac a shin com ey i e ldb a s edon m a rk e tv a lu eo f13% fo ranov e r a l lc a shin com e y i e ld to ck s-40%bond s ) . o f8 .8%(60%s Nom in a l V a lu e in V a lu e 1 980Do l l a r s s1 .000 .000 5 1 .000 .000 2 .546 .967 981 .966 6 . 487 . 043 9 64 .258 9 46 . i l 68 1 6 . 522 . 289 In com e . D i s t r ibu t ed $5 0 .000 127 .348 324 .352 826 .114 In com e 8 .0 00 5 8 224 .133 5 70 . 860 1 .453 .961 Pu r ch a s ingPow e ro f In com eD i s t r ibu t ed 1 1 9 8 0Do l l a r s ) $ 5 0 . 0 0 0 4 9 . 0 9 8 I . 4 8 . 2 1 3 4 7 . 3 4 3 (1 )Th e to t a lr e tu rni s 14 .8%fomt h epo r t fo l ioinv e s t ed60%in s to ck sa ta16%r e tu rn110%in f l a t ion ) a n d40%inbond sa : ta13% r e tu rn .O fth eto t a lr e tu rno f14 .8% . 5%i sd i s t r ibu t ed .l e av ing 9 .8%tob er e inv e s t ed . I~ (4 )I t i sa s sum edth a t bond sw i l lp rov id ear e a lr e tu rno f l thoughth i si ssom ewh a th igh e rth anh i s to r i c a l 3% ,a r e tu rn s . I , I PORTFOL IOI I I R e a lR e tu rno f4 .8% D i s t r ibu t ed\ 10% R e inv e s t ed Y e a r 1980 1 990 2000 2 010 V a lu e in Nom in a l V a lu e 1980Do l l a r s $1 .000 .000 5 1 .000 . 000 .000 .000 2 .593 .743 1 6 . 727 . 500 1 . 000 .000 .000 .000 1 7 .449 .402 1 In com e 8 8 .000 2 28 .249 5 92 .020 1 . 535 .547 s In com e D i s t r ibu t ed s48 .000 124 .500 322 .920 8 37 .571 Pu r ch a s ingPow e ro f In com eD i s t r ibu t ed 1 1 9 8 0Do l l a r s ) 5 4 8 . 0 0 0 4 8 . 0 0 0 4 8 . 0 0 0 4 8 . 0 0 0 (1 )Th e po r t fo l io ' sr e a lr e t u r ni s4 .8%wh i ch i sth eto t a lr e t u r no f inu s 10%in f l a t ion .O f th et o t a lr e t u r no f14 .8% .4 .8%i s 14 .8%m d i s t r ibu t edl e av ing10%tob er e inv e s t ed . b �APPENDIX II Inflation and The Foundation Payout Rate J. Peter Williamson In the Tax Reform Act of 1969 Congress for the first time required private foundations to distribute for charitable purposes what was considered to be an appropriate minimum measure of income. Specifically, Section 4942 of the Internal Revenue Code calls for annual distribution of the greater of the foundation's actual current investment income or its "minimum investment return:' Initially, the minimum investment return was set at 6 percent of the yearend market value of investments, with a provision for an annual adjustment to be made by the Treasury, The rate, in fact, was raised as high as 6.5 percent in subsequent years. In an article in the Januaryl February 1976 issue of Foundation News, the author suggested that a distribution rate between 4.5 percent and 5 percent was probably as much as a foundation could afford if (he purchasing power of its distributions was to keep pace with inflation in (he nation's economy. In order to keep up with the higher rate of inflation in activities of the kind generally supported by private foundations, tbe �payout would have to be held at 3 percent to 4 percent a year. Keeping up with inflation is clearly d desirable goal. It means maintaining the purchasing power of distributions and a constant level of programs and social benefits. And it appears from the history of Section 4942 that Congress supports this goal. However, it takes only 14 years for a 5 percent inflation rate to cut the purchasing power of a dollar in half. Seven and a half years will do it at 10 percent inflation. Since the time of that article, Congress has taken a somew hat more realistic view of the relation between inflation and what a portfolio of securities can reasonably be expected to produce, and the minimum investment return has been fixed, effective for 1976 and succeed ing years, at 5 percent. So under present law a private foundation must distribute each year the greater of its actual investment income or 5 percent of the market value of its portfolio. The purpose of this article is to review the reasonableness of this present rule. Ten years have passed since the first payout requirements became law, and five years have passed since preparation of the article referred to above. What the experience of these years suggests is that the conclusions of that article were, if anything, optimistic and that although the concept of a minimum investment return makes sense, the requirement that all current investment income be distributed does not. The range of investments available to private foundations has not changed much for many years. The previous article observed that private foundation assets are mostly investments in common stocks, fixedincome securities, and short-term instruments. It is true that institutional investors in the United States have shown increasing interest in foreign stock markets and in real estate in recent years . Foreign markets, chiefly because of the steady devaluation of the U.S. dollar against some foreign currencies, have proved to be attractive and some foundations have found it worthwhile to expend the time and money necessary to set up a mechanism for maintaining a portfolio of foreign stocks and to work out with foreign governments an exemption from the usual taxes imposed on United States investors. But most foundations, including the smaller ones, are still somewhat reluctant to venture abroad for investment opportunities. Real estate presents a different set of problems. Achieving a reasonably diversified portfolio of real-estate holdings demands either an enormous total portfolio or opportunities to participate in pooled funds holding real estate. Although pooled funds have been available for participation by pension funds for many years now, opportunities for private foundations to invest in realestate pools are still somewhat limited. So foundation portfolios are by and large limited to stocks, bonds, and money market instruments. There appear to be no readily available statistics on the composition of private foundation investment portfolios. But there are available statistics on the composition of the endowment funds of colleges and universities. Each year the Investment Committee of the National Association of College and University Business Officers (N ACUBO) collects information on the endowment funds of NACUBO member institutions, covering at least half of all college and university endowment funds in the nation. The previous article reported that on average these endowment funds were invested 60 percent in common stocks, 30 percent in bonds, and 10 percent in short-term securities. The most recent data available indicate little change. The proportion in common stocks generally falls within 58 percent to 62 percent and the proportion in bonds falls between 25 percent and 30 percent. This allocation of investment assets reflects a generally sensible balance between risk and expected return. History suggests, and most professional investors are inclined to agree, that common stocks are likely to produce greater rates of return than are bonds and short-term instruments. At the same time, there is more uncertainty associated with common stocks than with bonds or money-market instruments. Bonds, while less risky than common stocks, present more uncertainty than do short-term instruments. And the dismal performance of bonds for Foundt";o,, Neu», March I.ipril 1981 19 �Table I 54 Years: 1926 through 1979 Compound At/g. Compound Avg. Annual Ratf oj Return "Real" Annual Rate oj Return Standard Be Poor's Composite ("500) Common Stock Index 9.0% 6.1% long Term High Grade Bonds 3.8 1.1 Treasury Bills 2.7 0 Rate of Inflation (Cons. Price Index) 2.7 many years now has encouraged some shin toward short-term insrru- rate of total return on long-term high-grade corporate bonds was 3.8 menrs. percent, and the rate on Treasury It is impossible to produce a "best" Bills was 2.7 percent. Over the same compromise between risk and return 54 years the average annual rate of and a "best': portfolio for all private inflation, as represented by the Confoundations. But the intuitive com- sumer Price Index, was 2.7 percent. promise that has led colleges and Adjusted for inflation, the "real" anuniversities to an average 60-30-10 nual rate of return on common stocks alltj>cation of their assets is probably was 6.1 percent: the real rate on generally satisfactory (or private bonds was 1.1 percent; and the real foundations. In the absence. then. of rate on Treasury Bills was O. special constraint such as that conTables II and III present the same tained in Section 4942. one might ex- statistics as does Table I, but for more pect a prudently managed private recent periods. Table II covers the 30 foundation to hold an investment years through 1979, approximately portfolio consisting of approximately the period from the adjustment of 60 percent common stocks. 30 per- the economy after World War II up cent bonds and ) 0 percent short-term to the present. Table III covers 10 instruments. years through 1979, approximately Tables in the previous article the period following the stock market summarized some historical rates of boom of the 1950s and '60s. The sigreturn on common stocks. long-term nificant change over time revealed by high-grade corporate bonds, Treas- these tables is, of course, the increase ury Bills, and inflation, taken from in the rate of inflation and the impact the work of Ibbotson and Sinquefield of Inflation on the real rates of return who have for some years now been on investments. tabulating and publishing these rates. If one were to take the 54 years of Table I in this article updates those history represented in Table I as a earlier figures. It shows that for the reasonable guide to future real rates 54 years, 1926-1979, the compound of return, one might conclude that a average annual rate of total return foundation invested entirely in com(dividends plus appreciation) on mon stocks and able to avoid paying common stocks as represented by the commissions and management fees Standard Be POOl'S Composite Index could afford to distribute 6.1 percent was 9 percent. The average annual of market value without impairing %0 Foundation Neu», March 1.4pri11981 the purchasing power of its portfolio and its distributions. An all common stock portfolio is simply far too risky, however, for most foundations. Although there is evidence that some foundations are being pushed towards a heavier emphasis on stocks, because of the difficulty in meeting the payout requirements of Section 4942 and still keeping up with inflation, a prudent balance is probably around 60 percent in common stocks, 30 percent in bonds and 10 percent in Treasury Bills. For this combination, without commission and management costs, the average real annual rate of return was only 4 percent. That is, if Table I is taken as a reasonable representation of the future, a foundation with a 60-30-10 distribution of assets cannot afford to distribute annually more than 4 percent of the value of the portfolio without impairing the purchasing power of its distributions. (For a 70-20-10 combination, somewhat higher risk than 60-30-10, the annual distribution. could have been 4.5 percent.) While Table II suggests a better experience with common stocks, it suggests a worse experience with bonds and, in fact, the average real annual rate of return on a 60-30-10 portfolio over the 30 years would have been only 3.7 percent. So distributions beyond 3.7 percent of market value would have impaired the purchasing power of a foundation's portfolio and its distributions. (The 3.7 percent becomes 4.4 percent for a 70-20-10 portfolio.) Table III, which covers the ten years through 1979, paints a dismal prospect indeed. Without distributing anything at all, a foundation with a 60-30-10 portfolio would have lost 1.3 percent a year in purchasing power. About the most optimistic conclusion one can draw from the three scenarios represented by these tables is that a private foundation with a prudently invested portfolio might be able to distribute 4 percent a ~. .- . �• • I j f year of market value and still hope to higher education, and other activities course, for cornrrusston costs and preserve the purchasing power of its supported by private foundations management fees. Statistics are availdistributions, at least in terms of the that do not offer the opportunities able for the actual performances of Consumer Price Index. This conclu- for productivity improvement that college and university endowment sion is a little less optimistic than that , one finds in the industrial and com- funds, probably a reasonable reprereached in the preceding article, mercial sectors of the economy, is Y2 sentation of how well private founwhich concluded that a 4.5 percent percent to 1 percent above the rate of dation portfolios have done. Unforspending rate offered a fairly good inflation in the Consumer Price In- tunately, there do not appear to be prospect of keeping up with inflation dex. Very recent experience may any comprehensive statistics on the in the economy. However, inflation seem to belie this conclusion. performances of the foundations in the economy generally, as repreThe numbers in the three tables themselves. Over the ten years endsented by the Consumer Price Index, above represent the performances of ing June 30, 1980, the average anis not quite the same as inflation in indexes, rather than the perform- nual total rate of return for 68 college the sons of activities supported by ances of actual portfolios held by and university endowment funds private foundations. There is good foundations or other institutions. (representing about 54.5 billion) was reason to believe that inflation in And they make no allowance, of 7.64 percent. This was about a half percent below the total rate of return on a 60-30-10 index for the same time period. The average real total return for the 68 endowment funds Table II over the decade was -.40 percent, so 30 Years: 1950 through 1979 that even had they spent none of their income over the decade, the Compound ..It/g. Compound Aug. funds would on average have failed "Rtal'" Annual Annual Rate to keep pace with inflation as repreRate of Return of Return sented by the Consumer Price Index. Only 25 of the funds achieved a posi6.6% Standard & Poor's Composite 10.8% tive real total rate of return, and the -1.0 2.9 Long Term High Grade Bonds highest real total return rate was 3.8 percent a year. o 4.0 Treasury Bills For the five years ending June 30, 1980, endowment funds did a little 4.0 Rate of Inflation better compared to the averages. For 93 colleges and university endowment funds representing over 55 billion in assets the average annual rate of total return was 8.1 percent while the corresponding return for a fund invested in the indexes 60-30-10 Table III was a half percent less. For this five10 Years: 1970 through 1979 year period, the average real rate of return was -1.1 percent. Twenty-five Compound Aug, Compound Avg. funds achieved a positive real rate of "Rear' Annual Annual RaIl return and the largest of these was Rate ofRtturn of Return 4.4 percent. Few statistics are available for the Standard & Poor's Composite -1.4% 5.9% performance of endowment funds -1.1 6.2 Long Term High Grade Bonds over very long periods of time. But the 15-year record ending June 30. -1.0 6.3 Treasury Bills 1980 for 33 endowment funds aggregating over $2 billion in assets Rate of Inflation 7.4 shows an average annual real rate of return of -1.5 percent, with only two funds achieving a positive real return Foundt,l;on NtTIJ5, March I :fpri11981 %l �/ s t o c k s ,3 0p e r c en ti nbond s ,and 10 p e r c en ti nT r e a su ryB i l l swou ld h av e T ab l eIV p rodu c eda nav e r ag ein com ey i e ldo f 5 . 5 p e r c e n t p e r y e a r o v e r t h e d e c a d e 10Y e a r s : 1970th rough1979 w i t ha c ap i t a ld ep r e c i a t ion inpu r ch a s ing pow e ro f5 . 8p e r c en t .T h e • ' f v t ' rag e C CompoundAug . om p o u n dA ug .. b e s t ch an c eo fp r e s e rv ing th epu r l "Annua lRa t e I n c om e Annua lRaJ l 'o f "Rea y i t ld Ap t n ' t cw l i 0 1 I o fAP fW t cW l ion ch a s ing pow e ro fa n inv e s tm en t po r t fo l iowou ld h av eb e enfoundin S t and a rd& Poo r ' s commons to ck s .And , ind e ed ,ap r i 5 . 4% 4 . 1% 1 . 6% Compo s i t e a t ion m igh t h av e su c v a t e found c e e d e d i n a t t a i n i n g a p u r c h a s i n g LongT e rmH igh pow e rl o s sb e low5 .4p e r c en tbycon 8 . 6 1 . 8 7 . 9 G r ad e Bond s c en t r a t ing on h igh e rr i sk g row th s t o c k s and g a in ing app r e c i a t ion in 0 0 6 . 3 T r e a su ryB i l l s ex ch ang efo rin com e .B u t th er e su l t 5 . 8 5 . 5 . 4 2 60 -30 -10M i x eg r e eo fr i s kto l e r ab l efo rf ew i sad e r t a in lyin app rop found a t ion sandc ov e rth e1 5y e a r s .T h eh igh e ro fth e b e tw e en3 . 5p e r c en tand4p e r c en t . r i a t ef o r m o s t . So th efound a t ion Th e r ei sa tl e a s t al o g i ct oar e - m tw or a t e sw a s1 . 6p e r c en tp e ry e a r . rud en tm ix tu r e o f a in t a in ing a p Th er e co rd o fa c tu a l endowm en t qu i r ed d i s t r ibu t ion m e a su r ed b ya s t o c k sandbond sw a s cond emn edto in imum inv e s tm en tr e tu rn ,on e e p e r fo rm an c e si nh igh e r edu c a t ion m a rn ingandd i s t r ibu t ingas i z ab l ein a ti s l a ck ingi nth er equ i r em en tth a t com s e em sth ent ocon f i rmacon c lu s ion th eandw a t ch ing r e a lc ap i t a lv a lu e s e r c en tannu a lr e a lr a t eo f th ea c tu a lcu r r en t in com em u s tb e d th a ta5p e c l in e . s th eto t a lr e tu rnp e r i s t r ibu t ed.A r e tu rni smo r e th anon ec a ns en s ib ly d T h ef i v ey e a r s 1975 -1979 h av e fo rm an c eo fbo ths t o c k sand bond s p rov ed-m o r es a t i s f a c to ry ,a s -shownin an t i c ip a t e . I fa5p e r c en tr e a lr a t e 5p e r c en t h a sd e c l in ed i nr e c en ty e a r s ,t oth e T ab l eV ,l a rg e lyb e c au s e th i sf iv e in twh e r e th er e a lto t a lr e tu rnh a s y a f t e ra l low ing fo r th ee f f e c t so f po e a rp e r iodh app en ed 'tob eg ina ta rn ed n eg a t iv e ,c u r r e n t in com e v in f l a t ion i smo r e th anc a nb ee x - tu in ti nth es to ckm a rk e r . e r yl owpo i e l d sh av ea c tu a l lyr i s en .Wh a t h a s ( einv e s t edfund so fp r i - y In l a t e 1974 t h es to ck m a rk e t p e c t edf o rth a t ion s , th en a r equ i r ed h app en ed i sth a t bo th s t o c k s and r e a ch edi t sl ow e s tl e v e li nm any y e a r s , v a t e found sh av eb e en d e c l in ing i nr e a l anda p ayou tr a t ea sh igha s5p e r c en tc a n bond sacon s equ en c eth ef iv ey e a r s ein com et h e yg en e r a t e f a l u ew h i l eth a i rth er e a lc ap i t a l v b eexp e c t edt oimp eendo f1 9 7 4 th roughth e romth o fth e found a t ion s .I ti sn o t un - h a sb e enr i s ing .Tosp endth ef u l li n - endo f1 9 7 9p rodu c eda nav e r ag ein r e a son ab l eth a tCong r e s sshou ldpu t com ef r omapo r t fo l ioh a sb e com ea n com ey i e l do f4 . 7p e r c en t coup l ed som el im i tonth eex t en tt owh i ch a a r ew a yt od i s s ip a t er e a lc ap i - w lmo s tsu a lr a t eo fap i t ha po s i t iv er e a lannu a t ionm a yr e f r a inf rom t p r iv a t efound es am et im e ,how a lv a l u e . p r e c i a t ion . )A t th d i s t r ibu t ion s,r e inv e s t ingin com eand T ab l e IVs h ow sf o rth et e ny e a r s ev rpo r a t ebond so f f e r ed v e ry e r ,co bu i ld ing up th ev a lu eo fi t si n v e s t - 1970 ec ompon en t so fto t a l h -1979 th s t an t i a ld ep r e igh in com eand sub m en t po r t fo l io .I tapp e a r sth a twh a t r e tu rn in com ey i e l d andapp r e c i a - c i a t ioni nr e a lc ap i t a lv a lu e .A sar e adi nm ind i ni t sr equ i r e - t Cong r e s sh t o c k sd e l iv e r ed su ion .Wh i l e commons l t ,a60 -30 -10po r t fo l iowou ld h av e m en t th a tam in imum inv e s tm en tr e - a f4 . 1p e r - p nav e r ag ein com ey i e l do rodu c eda nav e r ag ein com ey i e ldo f tu rnb ed i s t r ibu t ed e a ch y e a r ,w a s c en tov e rth ed e c ad e ,th ec ap i t a lap - 6p e r c en t and r e a ld ep r e c i a t ion in a t ionb eab l et om a in t a in p th a tafound r e c i a t iono f1 . 6p e r c en tay e a rw a s c f2 . 2p e r c en tay e a r . ap i t a lv a lu eo r ch a s ingpow e ro fi t spo r t fo l io no th epu tn e a r lyenought ok e epupw i t h ab l eIVandV d emon s t r a t e ,a A sT andi t sd i s t r ibu t ion sw i th as en s ib l e in sar e su l tth er e a lc ap i - p f l a t ionanda a t iondo e sh av eac e r r iv a t e found tth a ti tn o tb e t inv e s tm en ts t r a t egy .Bu fs to ck sd e c l in ed b y5 . 4 t a lv a l u eo r e edomo fcho i c eamongd i f f e r a i nf a b l etodomu ch mo r e th ank e epp a c e p e r c en tay e a r .Co rpo r a t e bond s en tcu r r en tin com el e v e l s .Long t e rm e r i en c e sugg e s t s p w i t h in f l a t ion .Exp r e s en t ed a n ev en mo r e ex t r em e bond romt im etot im esho r t s ,andf r a th e rs t rong lyth a tth e5p e r c en tr a t e c a s e ,w i t ha nav e r ag ein com ey i e l do f t e rmin s t rum en t s ,o f f e rh ighcu r r en t inS e c t ion4 9 4 2i stooh igh .Ar e a son - 7 . 9p e r c en tanda nav e r ag ed ep r e c i a - in com ecoup l edw i th d e c l in ing r e a l eg iv ingp r iv a t efound a - t epu r ch a s ingpow e ro fc ap i - c a b l er a t e ,on i o ni nth to ck so f f e r ap i t a lv a lu e.Common s t i on saf a i rch an c ea ts imp lym a in t a in - t f8 . 6p e r c en tay e a r .A po r t fo l io s a lo ign i f i c an t ly low e rcu r r en t in com e r ch a s ingpow e r ,p rob ab lyl i e s inv e s t ed60 p e r c en ti n common P l tJ15eTumt o Pag e24 i ngpu Z% Foundn t ion ~.~, Ma r ch /Ap r i l1981 . J ' , " �c ~ A final check on the reasonableness of a minimum distribution rate of 5 Table ·V percent of market value was run for 5 Years: 1975 through 1979 the 30-year period ending with 1979. On the assumption that S1,000 was invested at the end of 1949, 60 pert r ~ Compound Avg. Compound Aug. "Real" Annual Rate Income Annual Rate of cent in common stocks, 30 percent in YiLM of Appreciation Appreciation corporate bonds, and 10 percent in Treasury Bills, with a 5 percent disStandard & Poor's "'[)3ribution rate, the market value of the 4.7% 9.5% Composite 1.3% rtfolio would have held its own ( with inflation in the economy Long Term High through 1973. But from 1974 Grade Bonds -2.6 8.3 -10.0 through 1979, the purchasing power Treasury Bills 6.7 o o would have dropped below that original S1,000, to less than $700 by the 60-30-10 Mix end of 1979. As already noted. keeping up with inflation in the economy coupled with a reduced likelihood of appreciation. So the s pend-all- generally may not be good enough loss of real capital value. The foun- income rule may not be successful. for a private foundation. On the asdation seeking the greatest chance of But the rule is not needed anyway, sumption that inflation in the kinds maintaining the purchasing power of since the "minimum investment re- of activities supported by private its investments will be driven to the turn" distribution rule is sufficient to foundations is 1 percent a year above lowest yielding common stocks, which accomplish the Congressional purarion represented by the Congenerally constitute the most risky se- pose . su er Price Index, the $1,000 incurities available. The foundation ..---------------4....-~stment at the end of 1949 'coupled choosing a prudent balance between with a 5 percent distribution rate risk and return has been forced in rewould have maintained its purchasing power through 1972, with the cent years to accept a high current income and a substantial deterioration real value of the portfolio dropping in real capital value. What the disin 1973 and subsequent years, to a tribution requirement in Section little over $500 at the end of 1979. 4942 has done is to create a situation A belief that investment experience in which the only chance a private through 1972 is a better guide to the foundation has of minimizing capital future than experience since 1972 depreciation is to pursue an extraorwould support a minimum distribudinarily high risk investment tion rate of 5 percent as consistent strategy. Any reasonable balance bewith the expectation that a private tween risk and return must lead infoundation could distribute this evitably to erosion of the real value of amount each year and still expect to the portfolio. hold its own with inflation. But an A distribution rule that forces this 'expectation that the )'ears since 1972 About the Author choice upon a private foundation is are also a guide to what we can ex pect harmful to foundations and to the J. Peter Williamson is professor in the future would suggest that a 5 public they serve. What, then, is the percent distribution rate is too high. of Business Administration at the purpose of the requirement that all In any case, the Congressional purAmos Tuck School of Business income be spent? Presumably assurpose of limiting growth of foundaAdministration at Dartmouth Colance that a foundation will not hoard tions at the expense of current dislege. He is the author of a number its assets, piling up capital while tributions is served best by the "minof books and articles on legal, doing little for the public benefit. But imum investment return" distribufinancial, and taxation subjects and a foundation could, if it were willing tion. The additional requirement that has conducted extensive research to take the risk, invest largely in assets current income be entirely distribuon the financing and the investproducing little income so as to ted is not necessary as we have seen, ments of nonprofit organizations. maximize the likelihood of capital and has only perverse results. fD 24 Foundation NroJJ, March I Apri{ 1981 • � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby Papers Subject The topic of the resource Charities Family foundations--Michigan Philanthropy and society Description An account of the resource The Russell Mawby papers document the life and work of Michigan-born Russell Mawby from 1928 to the present. Mawby was the Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation for twenty-five years and is recognized for his work in the area of philanthropy in the United States, Latin America, and Europe. The digital collection includes a selection of field notes, speeches, itineraries, and other materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell G. W.K. Kellogg Foundation Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby Papers (JCPA-01). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson Center for Philanthropy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-2012 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby papers, JCPA-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01_1981-03-30_RMawby_SPE Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby testimony on Senate bill 464. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell Description An account of the resource Testimony given before the U.S. Senate Committee on Finance for the Legislation and Regulations Committee of the Council on Foundations on S. 464, March 30, 1981. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society Family foundations--Michigan W. K. Kellogg Foundation Charities Speeches, addresses, etc. Legislation Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1981-03-30 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/87b2310c7aa1c00e04de9488061500c3.pdf 73f6071ae0992252a6750bb0b54a2ad1 PDF Text Text SENATE F INANCE COMM ITTEE SUBCO~MITTEE ON FOUNDAT ION S T e s t imony by D r . R u s s e l lG . M aw by a tO c tobe r2 ,1 9 7 3Subcom : r . J . itt e eH e a r i n g s SUMMARY OF PERTINENTPO INTS 1 . Th ea n a l y s e sby t h eComm i s s ion on Found a t ion s andP r i va t eP h i lan t h r o p y (Th e P e t e r s o n Co~~ssion) wh i ch l e dt ot h een a c tm en to ft h e6p e rc e n td i s t r i b u t i o nr u l ei nS e c t i o n4 9 4 2o ft h eI n t e r n a lR ev enu e Cod eo f1 9 5 4r e f l e c t e d i n a c c u r a t ei n f o rm a t i o nandm i s r e p r e s e n t a t i o no ft h ea c t u a ls i t u a t i o n . Th ep r i n c i p a lc o n t e n t i o nr e f l e c t e di nt h eP e t e r s o nR epo r t w a s t h a tp o r t f o l i o so fp r i v a t ef o u n d a t i o n sh adn o tp rodu c ed r a t e so fr e t u r n st h o u g h tt oh av eb e en p rodu c edbymu tu a l f u n d s . Th i sc o n c l u s i o nw a sb a s e dupon a on ey e a ra n a l y s i s and w a s e r ron eou si nt e rm so fc o n t i n u i n gp e r fo rm an c e . 2 . Th e 6p e rc e n tpa y o u tr e q u i r em e n tenac tedby a S e n a t eF l o o rAm e ndme n tand l a t e ra c c e p t e dby t h eCon f e r en c e Comm i t t e em and a t e s t h ec o n t i n u i n gi n v a s i o n o fco rpu sby p r i v a t ef o u n d a t i o n s ,an un sound p r a c t i c ei np r u d e n tf i s c a l m an ag em en t . S t u d i e s showt h a tt h e6p e rc e n tp a y o u tr u l er e s u l t si ns h o r t t e rmi n c r e a s e st oc h a r i t yb u tt h a tt h ed im i n u t i o no fa ss e t so f p r i v a t efound a t i o n st om e e t t h ep a y o u tr equ i r em en ti ss o d r a s t i ca st oc au s el o n gt e rmr e d u c t i o n si nt h e i rp h i l a n t h r o p i c d i s t r i b u t i o n sf o rc h a r i t a b l ep u r p o s e s . 3 . Th eP e t e r s o n Comm i s s ion R epo r ta l s oe r r e di na s sum ingt h a ta n n u a li n c r e a s e s i nc o s t si nt h ee d u c a t i o n a landh e a l t hs e c t o r so ft h ee conomy w e r e no d i f f e r e n tt h a ni nt h ee conomy g e n e r a l l y andi t ss t u d i e sw e r eb a s e dupon a p r e sump t ion o fan a n n u a lc o s ti n c r e a s eo f2 p e rc e n t . H igh e re d u c a t i o nandt h eh e a l t hs e c t o r sa r el a b o r i n t e n s i v e s e r v i c ei n d u s t r i e swh e r ei t i sd i f f i c u l tt oa c h i e v ega i n si n p r o d u c t i v i t ye x p e r i e n c e di ngood s -p rodu c ing i n d u s t r i e s . Co s t i n c r e a s e si nt h eh e a l t hande d u c a t i o n a ls e c t o r sg r e a t l yex c e edt h o s ei nt h ee conomy g e n e r a l l y ,t h u sp u t t i n gp r e s s u r e on t h ea b i l i t i e so ff o u n d a t i o n st oc o n t i n u et om a i n t a i nt h e i r r e l a t i v ec o n t r i b u t i o n st os o c i e t y . 4 . Un le s st h e6p e rc e n tm in imum d i s t r i b u t i o nr u l eo fSe c t i o n4 9 4 2i sr e d u c e d t h er u l ew i l lp r o g r e s s i v e l yim p a i rt h ee f f e c t i v e n e s so fa l lf o u n d a t i o n s andev en e l im i n a t em any o f th em ,t ot h ed e t r im en to f so c i e t y . I fp r i v a t eph i l an th ropyi st oc o n t i n u ei t sh i s t o r i cc o n t r i b u t i o nt oAm e r i c an l i f e ,ch ang e si nt h ec u r r e n tl e g i s l a t i o n -i n c l u d i n ga r e d u c t i o nint h ep a y o u tr e q u i r em en ta r en e c e s s a r y . �SENATE FINANCE COMMITTEE SUBCOMMITTEE ON FOUNDATIONS Testimony by Dr. Russell G. Mawby at October 2, 1973 Subcommittee Hearings My name is Russell G. Mawby, and I am President of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation in Battle Creek, Michigan. On April 10 of this year the W. K. Kellogg Foundation testified before the Committee on Ways and Means of the U. S. House of Representatives on the subject of the impact of the minimum distribution rule (Section 4942 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954) on Foundations. Much of the brief testimony which I give today will parallel the testimony presented at those hearings. supported by a study entitled If My testimony is also The Impact of the Minimun Distribution Rule on Foundations" by Dr. Norman B. Ture. A copy of that study is submitted along with my testimony for incorporation into the record. Since my testimony is concerned with the minimum distribution rule as enacted by the Tax Reform Act of 1969, my remarks will be restricted to Section 4942 of the Internal Revenue Code. However, I would like it to be known for the record that we share the concern that the 4% excise tax levied under Section 4940 should be eliminated or, in the alternative, reduced to a rate which would equal the audit costs the tax is intended to defray. Similarly, the Kellogg Foundation joins other Foundations con- cerned over the substantial reductions in assets which have been occasioned by forced diversifications of Foundation holdings, both to meet the arbitrary percentage standard of the 4942 payout requirements and to satisfy the divestiture rules of Section 4943. �2 Before briefly setting fo rth the legislative hi s tory concerning sect ion 4942, I would remind you of the r equiremen t s of the provi sion; that is, private foundation s must make annual dis tributions in the amount of the gre ater of either their earned inc ome or a fixe d percent age of the current market value of their investment assets. The rationale behind this concept was to insure th at current distributions are sufficient to justify tax benefits dono rs might have received, and to prevent private foundations from investing in the stock of companies which retain most of their earnings and thereby delay .charitable expenditures commensurate with the value of their assets. avoid this delay of benefit to charity, section In order to 4942 requires private foundations to make annual distributions at a prescribed level, even if an invasion of capital may be necessary. Many find this approach objectionable, not only because it mandates an encroachment on capit al, but also b ecause many private foundations that are currently able to support ma j or charitable programs are able to do so only because their assets have been historically invested to provide a reasonable appreciation in value as well as a fair current return. To illustrate this point, the Kellogg Foundation historically has distributed all of its income. Over the years the Foundation's assets have doubled in val ue every ten years. Most importantly, because of this appreciation. the payout to charity has more than doubled each decade. As I will show lat er, an annual i nvas i on of principal would have made thi s re cor d of ch arit ab l e contributions i mpossible. �3 Iwou ld emph a s i z et h a tp h i l o s o p h i c a l l yI s u p p o r tt h econ c ep to fa m i n im um annu a lc h a r i t a b l ed i s t r i b u t i o n . How ev e rt I amcon c e rn edw i t ht h em e thod o fd e t e rm i n i n g su cha d i s t r i b u t i o na ss e tf o r t hi ns e c t i o n4942 ; andev en i f t h a tm e thod o fd e t e rm i n a t i o nw e r ea c c e p t a b l et t h e6 p e r c e n tr a t es h o u l d b er edu c edb e c au s ei t i sh i s t o r i c a l l yu n r e a s l i t i c . Mov ing nowt ot h el e g i s l a t i v eh i s t o r y ,t h em i n im um d i s t r i b u t i o nr u l eh a s i t so r i g i ni nt h e"1965T r e a su ry R epo r to nP r i v a t e Found a t ion s "s u bm i t t e d t ot h eHou s e Comm i t t e e on W a y s. andM e an s . Th a tr e p o r te spou s edt h et h e o r y t h a tt h e r es h o u l db eac o r r e l a t i o nb e tw e ent h ei i~ t a xb e n e f i tt o f o u n d a t i o ndono r s andt h et im eo ffound a t iong r a n t so rb e n e f i t st oc h a r i t y . How ev e r , i t a l s on o t e dt h a tt h ein com eo fa s s e t sh e l dby found a t ion ss h o u l d b e on a p a r i t yw i t ho t h e rt ax ex emp te n t i t i e ssu cha sc o l l e g e s andu n i v e r s i t i e s . A l s o ,i t s t a t e dt h a tt h er e t e n t i o no fc a p i t a lb y found a t ion si s j u s t i f i a b l e . Th er e p o r tcon c lud edt h a ta r e a s o n a b l ein com ee q u i v a l e n twou ld b ei nt h e r ang eo f3t o31 / 2p e r c e n t . Thu s ,i t i sobv iou st h a tt h er e p o r td i dn o t i n t e n dt or e q u i r efound a t ion st od i s t r i b u t et oc h a r i t ya n amoun tt h a twou ld r e q u i r ed im inu t ion o fco rpu sa ss e c t i o n4 9 4 2c l e a r l yr e q u i r e s . Th ef i r s th i n tt h a tt h em in imum r a t ep r o p o s a la s adop t edi n1969 m igh tb e abov et h e3 -t o31 / 2 p e r c e n tl e v e lapp e a r si nfo rm e rS e c r e t a r yo ft h e T r e a s u r yF ow l e r ' ss t a t em e n tt oCong r e s so nD e c emb e r1 1 , 1968 ,w h e nh eu s ed an ex amp l ewh i ch a s sum eda 5 p e r c e n t in com ee q u i v a l e n t . Th i s ex amp l ew a s a p p a r e n t l yt h eb a s i sf o rt h eComm i t t e eo nW a y s andM e a n s a d o p t i n ga 5 p e r c e n t m in imum p a y o u t . Th eS en a t eF in an c e Comm i t t e ea c c ep t edt h e5 p e r c e n tl e v e l r e comm end edby t h eHou s e comm i t t e e . �4 O nD ecembe r6 , 1969 ,S ena t o rPe r c yin af l o o ram e ndm en t w h i c hw a s pas s e d , r a i s edt h el e v e lf rom5 p er c e n tto 6 pe r c e n t,wh ich w a s ac ce p t e dby th e con f e r e n c e on t h e S en a to r Pe r c yexPl a in edh i s ac t ion w a sb a sedm a in ly o~~i o ~ n ion o fM r. P e te rG .P e te r s o n , Ch a i rm an o ft h eComm i s s ion on F o u n d a t ion s andP r i v a t e Ph ilan th ropy, who s u gg e stedth a t ap r o p e rr a t e o fr e t u r nf o rfoun d a t i o n swou ld a l lows u ch e n t i t i e st op a y o u tb e twe en 6 and 8p e r c e n ta n n u a l l y . Thu s ,t h e6 p e rc e n tp ayou tr equ i r em e n tr e p r e s e n t s a lO a p e r c e n ti n c r e a s ei nt h em in imum i n i t i a l l yp ropo s edbyt h eT r e a s u r y , and ,i na d d i t i o n ,i t i sp r em i s edupon andr e f l e c t st h ei n a c c u r a t ec o n c l u s i o n s o ft h eP e t e r s o nr e p o r t . I ti si n t e r e s t i n gt on o t et h a t ,i ni n t r o d u c i n gh i s f l o o ram endm en t , S e n a t o rP e r cy f u r t h e rst a t e dt h a t ,mo r e im p o r t a n tt h a n t h ep a r t i c u l a rp e r c e n t a g e s ,a r et h ea s sump t ion s on wh i ch t h ep e r c e n t a g e s h o u l db eb a s e d : "Th ep ayou tr equ i r em en ts h o u l db eh i g h enough t or e q u i r e th em( p r i v a t ef o u n d a t i o n s )t oi n v e s tt h e i rfund sp r o d u c t i v e l y . Th ep e r c e n t a g e s h o u l dn o tb es oh i g ha st oamoun tt oa d e l a y e dd e a t hs e n t e n c e . " To i l l u s t r a t eo u r conce rn sw i t ht h ep ayou tp r o v i s i o n , Iw i l lu s et h e e x p e r i e n c eo ft h eK e l logg Found a t ion a sar e p r e s e n t a t i v ec a s e . Ou r foun d e r ,W . K . K e l l o g g ,r e a l i z e da t o t a lt a xb e n e f i t( in com e ,g i f t , and e s t a t e )o fa p p r o x im a t e l y$364 ,000 on g i f t so f$45 m i l l i o n wh i ch h em ad et o andi nb e h a l fo ft h eFound a t ion . F rom t h a t$45 m i l l i o nt h eK e l logg Found a t ion h a sd i s t r i b u t e di ne x c e s so f$272 ~i ion f o rc h a r i t a b l epu rpo s e s andt h e t o t a lf a i rm a rk e t v a l u eo ft h ea s s e t st o d a yi sa p p r o x im a t e l y$576 m i l l i o n . Th e t o t a lo ft h e s ea s s e t sa re m a in ta ined onb e h a l fo ft h eF o u n d a t ion i ntwos e p a r a t e po r t f o l i o s ,wh i ch w er e f e rt oa s" K e l logg " and "D i v e r s i f i e d . " Th eK e l l ogg po r tfo lio c o n s i s t se n t i re l yo f K e l l o gg C o .s t o ckw i t h av a l u eo f$529 m i l l i o n . T he D ive r s i f i e d po r tf o l i ocon s is t so fs toc k s , bo n d s , andot h e ri n t e r e s t b e a r i n g �·. 5 investments and has an approximate value of $47 million. Through the years, Kellogg has consistently outperformed the Diversified portfolio which is used to measure the merits of diversification. A principal contention reflected in the Peterson report was that the portfolios of private foundations had not produced the rate of return thought to have been produced by mutual funds. By any measure of return, the Kellogg Foundation has outproduced mutual funds for the period covered by the Peterson report and has continued to do so since. For example, in the last 7 years the Kellogg Foundation's income, because of holdings in the Kellogg Co., has continued to be substantially greater than it would have been had its income been derived entirely from diversified investments, The increase in income for our 1972 tax year compared to 1966 was 66.5 percent for the Kellogg holding as compared to an increase of 12.8 percent on the foundation's diversified portfolio. It is evident that the sale of Kellogg stock and the di versi fication of funds would result in a lower return to charity over the years. Year Ended August 31 Kellogg Net Income From Kellogg Stock 1967 1968 1969 1970 1971 1972 1973 $11,272,650 12,177,062 14,438,092 14,890,298 17,606,034 17,349,265 18,775,544 %Increase Over 1967 8.0% 28.0 32.0 56.1 53.9 66.5 Diversified Foundation Income From Other Investments $1,852,705 1,954,008 1,834,420 1,831,344 1,711,651 1,941,018 2,090,946 %Increase Over 1967 5.4% (.9) (1.1) (7.6) 4.7 12.8 Not only was the Peterson report incorrect in regard to performance, but its premise that a pegged payout requirement would be good for charity is also wrong. For example, had the minimum distribution rule been in effect �6 at 6 percent from 1934, when the t r us t cons i s t ed of 221,000 shares of Kel l ogg stock, with a then mar ket value of $38 milli on, the foll owing would have occurred: 1. From 1934 through 1972, the trust made an actual distribution of $222 million. Had the minimum di s t rib ut i on rule been applicable, distributions of $259 million ( or an increas e of $37 million) would have been made; 2. To meet that payout requirement, the trust would have had to sell the equivalent of 18 million shares with a market value of $265 million; t he r e f or e , the trust's holding would have been reduced to a market value of $265 million; and thus 3. The short-term higher return to charity of $37 million would have cost $265 million in corpus value, thereby reducing the current size of the trust by 50 percent. Further, for 1973-74, the distribution from the reduced assets would have been only $10 million rather than the $20 million which will in fact be distributed . Wi th 3 years of experience under the 1969 law, there has been time to examine how section 4942 will operate to undermine overall foundation grants, and there has been the opportunity to further examine the assumptions of the Peterson report. For this purpose, seven Foundations* commissioned a s tudy by Dr. Norman B. Ture entit led "The Impact of the Mi ni mum Distribution Rule on Foundations" . This is the s tudy to which I referred in my introductory *The Hormel Foun dat i on , the Kel l og g Foundation, the Kres ge Foundation, the Lilly Foundation, the McClellan Foundation, the Pew Memorial Trust, and the Woodruff Foundat ion . / �7 r em a rk s . T h ef i n d i n g sand c o n c l u s i o n so ft h a ts t u d y ,a sb r i e f l ysumm a r i z ed i ni t sow nl angu ag ea r ea sf o l l ow s : i~s anym i n im um d i s t r i b u t i o nr u l ewh i ch i g n o r e st h ef o u n d a t i o n ' sr a t eo f r e t u r nw i l lh av e ah i g h l yd i f f e r e n t i a l ,d i s c r im i n a t o r yandp o s s i b l y c a p r i c i o u simp a c to n found a t ion sando nt h e i rl o n g t e rmc a p a c i t yt os u p p o r t c h a r i t i e s . S e cond ,t h e(P e t e r s o nComm i s s ion ) c o n t e n t i o nt h a tt h einv e s tm en tp e r fo rm an c e o ff o u n d a t i o n si sr e l a t i v e l ypoo ri sb a s e do ni n a d e q u a t ei n f o rm a t i o nand i n a p p r o p r i a t es t a t i s t i c a lm e a su r e ; t h er e c o r d so ffound a t ion sf o rwh i ch d a t aw a s a v a i l a b l ei nt h ep r e p a r a t i o no ft h i s(Tu r e )r e p o r tc e r t a i n l ydo n o ts u p p o r tt h i sc o n t e n t i o n . T h i r d ,n o soundev id en c ew a s adv an c ed (byt h eP e t e r s o n Comm i s s ion )t os u p p o r t t h ev i ewt h a tt h ea l l e g e d l ypoo ri n v e s tm e n tp e r fo rm an c eo ff o u n d a t i o n si s r e l a t e dt ot h ec o n c e n t r a t i o no ft h e i ri n v e s tm e n ta s s e t s . F o u r t h ,i t i sn e i t h e rr e a l i s t i cn o rr e a s o n a b l et oa s sum et h a ta m i n im um d i s t r i b u t i o nr u l ew i l lr e s u l ti ns i g n i f i c a n ti n c r e a s e si nt h er a t eo f r e t u r no nf o u n d a t i o ni n v e s tm e n t s . F i n a l l y ,t h e(Tu r e )r e p o r tcon c lud e st h a tt h et a xs a v i n g sa l l e g e d l yr e a l i z e d by t h o s ee s t a b l i s h i n gfound a t ion sa r e ,i na l ll i k e l i h o o d ,v e ry sm a l l . Found a t ion d i s t r i b u t i o n st oc h a r i t yh av er e p r e s e n t e da s i z e a b l eamoun to fb e n e f i t s r e l a t i v et ot h efo r egon et a xr e v e n u e s . F i n a l l y ,T h eP e t e r s o nR epo r ta s sum edt h a tt h ec h a r i t a b l es e r v i c e swh i ch af o u n d a t i o nno rm a l ly s u p p o r t sw i l ln o tr i s ei nc o s tany f a s t e rt h a nt h e / �8 general rate of inflation and for that purpose assumed a rate of inflation of 2 percent. The report's assumption is wrong, for it completely disregards the fact that the organizations supported by foundations have little possibility of significant gains in productivity. Let me cite a few quick examples. Higher education is a labor-intensive service sector of the economy in which it is difficult to achieve the gains in productivity that are experienced in goods-producing industries. Educational costs per credit hour consistently rose more rapidly than the consumer price index from 1953-54 to 1966-67. Over the period as a whole, educational costs rose at an annual average rate of 3.5%, as compared with a rate of 1.6% for the consumer price index--a difference of 1.9%.1 The most noticeable feature of the budgets of all institutions of higher education is how fast they have gone up in the years since World War II. Total educational and general expenditures on current account by all institutions of higher education went up from less than $1 billion in 1945-46 to more than $7 billion in 1963-64. Total educational and general expenditures less expenditures on organized research have gone up, on the average, more than 7% a year at all private universities. The direct instructional cost per student over the period 1955-56 works out to an average annual rate of increase of 8.3% for all private universities. 2 1 Source: "The More Effective Use of Resources--An Imperative for Higher Education," A Report and Recommendations by the Carnegie Commission on Higher Education, June 1972, pp. 33-38. 2 Source: "Economic Pressures on the Major Private Universities," vlilliam G. Bowen, Reprinted from "The Economics and Financing of Higher Education in the United States," a Compendium of Papers Submitted to the Joint Economic Committee, Congress of the U.S., Government Printing Office, 1969, pp.399-439. / �9 In the period 1958-71, the average operating budget for medical schools increased from $2,056,000 to $8,475,000, an increase of 412%. The mean salary for basic science faculty and for all ranks of clinical science faculty increased 59% and 66% respectively.3 A major program concern and site of W. K. Kellogg Foundation expenditures has been the hospital field. The Foundation has assisted a wide variety of programs in community hospitals such as in recent support for coronary care units and the improvement of burn patient care facilities and services. The increase of such support by the Foundation has substantially paralleled the general rise of medical care and hospital costs in the United States. Such costs have risen at an annual rate of 11.8% between the years 1950-1970 and the expenses per patient day during the same period rose at an annual rate of 8.6%. 4 In conclusion, from the foregoing these things are apparent: 1. The analysis which led to enactment of the 6% distribution rule reflected inaccurate information and misinterpretation of the actual si tuation. 2. The 6% payout requirement mandates the continuing invasion of corpus by private foundations, an unsound practice in prudent fiscal management. 3 Bradford, Malt and Oates, "The Rising Cost of Local Public Services," National Tax Journal. 4 Source: Hospitals, J.A.H.A. �1 0 3 . Co s ti n c r e a s e si nt h ec h a r i t a b l es e r v i c e ss u p p o r t e dby f o u n d a t i o n s ex c e edt h eg e n e r a li n f l a t i o n a r yr i s e ,t h u sp u t t i n gp r e s s u r e on f o u n d a t i o n a b i l i t yt oc o n t i n u et om a i n t a i nt h e i rr e l a t i v ec o n t r i b u t i o nt os o c i e t y . Un l e s st h e6% m in imum d i s t r i b u t i o nr u l ei sr e d u c e d ,i t i sc l e a rt h a t t h ep r i n c i p l e ss e tf o r t hi nt h eP e t e r s o nR epo r t and i n c o r p o r a t e di nS e c t i o n 4942w i l lp r o g r e s s i v e l yim p a i rt h ee f f e c t i v e n e s so f ev en e l im i n a t e~ n ~ f o u n d a t i o n sand o fth em ,t ot h ed e t r im e n to fs o c i e t y . I f p r i v a t ep h i l a n t h r o p yi st oc o n t i n u ei t sh i s t o r i cc o n t r i b u t i o nt o ~ i n l i f e ,ch ang e si nt h ec u r r e n tl e g i s l a t i o n i n c l u d i n ga r e d u c t i o n i nt h ep ayou tr e q u i r em e n t a r en e c e s s a r y . We u rg ey o u ra d o p t i o no fsu ch m o d i f i c a t i o n s t oi n s u r et h a to u rs o c i e t yw i l lc o n t i n u et ob e n e f i tf romt h e c o n s t r u c t i v ea c t i v i t i e so fp r i v a t ef o u n d a t i o n s . Th ank you . � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby Papers Subject The topic of the resource Charities Family foundations--Michigan Philanthropy and society Description An account of the resource The Russell Mawby papers document the life and work of Michigan-born Russell Mawby from 1928 to the present. Mawby was the Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation for twenty-five years and is recognized for his work in the area of philanthropy in the United States, Latin America, and Europe. The digital collection includes a selection of field notes, speeches, itineraries, and other materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell G. W.K. Kellogg Foundation Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby Papers (JCPA-01). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson Center for Philanthropy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-2012 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby papers, JCPA-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01_1973-10-02_RMawby_SPE Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby testimony on the Internal Revenue Code of 1954. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell Description An account of the resource Testimony given before the Senate Finance Committee Subcommittee on Foundations hearings on the minimum distribution rule (Section 4942 of the Internal Revenue Code of 1954), October, 2, 1973. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society Family foundations--Michigan Charities W. K. Kellogg Foundation Speeches, addresses, etc. Legislation Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1973-10-02 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f0a2aa261b29cf6c25de1a17120a1aea.pdf 04581bbaee2105c7d37f325cbc893786 PDF Text Text 1< (,...1 ( -rL.J.- ~ ) ~ . ~-. ,~ ~fJL v- 2- - I am Dr. Russell G. Mawby, President of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation of Battle Creek, Michigan and a Co-Trustee of the Kellogg Fotmdation Trust. / /' 2 ~ t&- manager of a foundatrion which actively participated in the legislative developnent of §4943 in 1969, specifically the "grandfather" provisions of §4943 (c) (4) • My reason for requesting the opporttmity to appear is to help insure that private fotmdations are pennitted to retain pre-1969 business holdings. Ten ears ago, on August 8, 1969, a panel representing many of the sane fourrlations which are here today successfully made the sane argurrents to the Finance Conmittee of the United States Senate. I stress the word "successfully" because the result of that corrbined testinony in 1969 was the statutory "grandfathering" of pre-1969 holdings contained in §4943 (c) (4) of the Code -- the statuto regulations would effectively attorney, ril, f r~~ ~ provision which the proposed ~ 1P- <-A! ~ a foundatii.on manager, not an .. ~ " I do ot; tmderstand why, having been adopted by Congress, A the argurrents must be made again. GMe ~} I do appreciate tho opportunity to testify to the wisdom of the Congressional decision in 1969 not to force wholesale· divestitu:te of existing foundation holdings. The W.K. Kellogg Foundation has, over the past 50 years, distributed nore than $500 million to charitable beneficiaries. That $500 million has been possible fran the initial gift of $45 million of Kellogg Company stock to the Foundation Trust of which the Kellogg Foundation is the sole �- 2- b e n e f i c i a r y . Bo th t h eK e l logg Found a t ion andFo tmd a t ionT r u s ta r ep r i v a t e found a t ion sand ,f o rpu rpo s e so f§4943 ,e a chi sa d i s q u a l i f i e dP e r s o nw i t h r e s p e c tt ot h eo t h e r . Tog e th e r ,t h eFound a t ionandFound a t ionT r u s tand d i s q u a l i f i e dp e r s o n stod ayCM I l ~ o ft h eK e l logg c a r p a n y . O ft h a ta r roun t , d i s q u a l i f i e dp e r s o n sw i t hr e s p e c tt o ,t h eFound a t ionandT r u s tCMI l 1 .4% . T en y e a r sago ,t h eFound a t ionandT r u s t andd i s q u a l i f i e dP e r son sh ad<X J I b in ed h o l d i n g so f5 4% . So ,a syous e e ,t h eh o l d i n g so ft h eFound a t ion ,T r u s t and d i s q u a l i f i e dp e r s o n sh av ebeen r edu c edt ocon fo : rmt ot h er equ i . r en en t so ft h e s e condp h a s eo f§4943( c )( 4 )wh i ch began f o rt h eK e l logg Found a t ionand T r u s t onM ay 26 , 1979 . T h er e d u c t i o n si n h o l d i n g so v e rt h ep a s tt e ny e a r sh av ebeen a c co r rp l i sh ed l a r g e l yt h r o u g hd i l u t i o no ft h ei n t e r e s to ft h eFound a t ionandT r u s ta st h e r e s u l to fi s s u a n c e so fa d d i t i o n a ls h a r e so fs t o c kb yt h ec o r p o r a t i o n ,t h u s a v o i d i n gt h en a r k e td i s r u p t i o nwh i ch wou ld h av ea cx : : a rp an i . eda s a l eo ft h e F o tm d a t i o n ' sh o l d i n g si na l i k ea r roun t . F o rex amp l e ,i n Nov e r rb e ro f1978 t h e r ew a s as a l ebyap r i v a t efound a t iono f2% o ft h econp anys t o c kth rougha p r i v a t ep l a c e n e n t . T h er e s u l to ft h i sd i s p o s i t i o nw a s ad e p r e s s i o no ft h em a r k e tp r i c e ,w i t h al o s so fr ro r ethan$ 4 0m i l l i o ni nt h en a r k e tv a l u eo ft h e h o l d i n g so ft h eK e l logg Found a t ionand Found a t ionT r u s t . O fc o u r s e ,t h e r ew a s as im i l a rl o s so finv e s t : r r en tv a l u et oo t h e rs h a r e h o l d e r s . \ . . . . . . . . . . . . ." ,con c e rnf ~~ h a r s handu n j u s t i f i a b l econ s equ en c e s l e dt h e Cong r e s st o" g r a n d f a t h e r "e x i s t i n gh o l d i n g swh en t h e yw r o t et h e1969A c t . I n 1965 ,t h eT r e a s u r yh a df i r s tp ropo s edl im i t sont h ep e rm i t t e dh o l d i n g so fa p r i v a t ef o u n d a t i o ni nab u s i n e s se n t e r p r i s e . Th e s ep r o p o s a l sd i dn o tr e c e i v e �- 3l e g i s l a t i v ea t t e n t i o nu n t i l1969 ,wh en ,a sa p a r to ft h eT ax Re fO Im A c t , t h eHou s ei n c l u d e da p r o v i s i o nwh ich wou ld h av ei n p o s e da 20% l im i tona p r i v a t efound a t ion Is h o . ld i r iq si na b u s i n e s se n t e r p r i s eandr e q u i r e dp r i v a t e f o u n d a t i o n sh av ingh o l d i n g si ne x c e s so f20% t or edu c et h o s eh o l d i n g s; t ;o A w i t h i nf i v ey e a r s . Con c e rn ed o v e rt h ei r rp a c to fther a p i dd i v e s t i t u r em and a t ed byt h eHou s e - p a s s e dp r o v i s i o nont h ev a l u eo ft h eh o l d i n g so fthefound a t ionands t o c k h o l d e r si ng e n e r a l ,t h ea f f e c t e df o u n d a t i o n sapp e a r e da saP a n e lb e f o r et h e S en a t eF in an c eC a rm i t t e e . , e t ' " " " e s s e n t l 1 t l l : ~re . J ~ ( 2 ) e £ o we r ecx : :x rp l e t e lyi n c o n s i s t e n t eHou s ew en tf u r t h e r r~ e twh a th adc an et ob e n e c e s s a r yi nane f f o r t a sa it u a t i o nsu s c ep. L e p i r i ta sw e1 a st h eI t t e r o ft h er aw ; and (4) es i l l wau l L i t h edono rt or e s u l ti n theph i .L an thn f o r c e ds a l eo fab u s i n e s sw i t h <pn s equ en . ta d v e r s i t yf o rt h ec em p / T h i t s e r rp loyees - - re ,~-------- con c e rn so v e rt h eHou s ev e r s i o no f' t h e 1969A c ta r et h es an econ c e rn s wh ich e x i s tw i t hr e s p e c ttoy o u rp ropo s edr~ . ~~e requirenentfor The S e n a t eF in an c eC a rm i t t e ea g r e e d r d d i v e s t i t u r eo fp r e l 9 6 9h o l d i n g s , and ,i n s t e a d ,impo s edd i f f e r e n tl im i t son su chh o l d i n g s . Und e r theS e n a t eb i l l ,a f o u n d a t i o nc o u l dr e t a i na l lo fi t s I. I �- 4p r e -1969h o l d i n g st oam a . x im um o f5 0% . W h e r et h ee x i s t i n gh o l d i n g s ex c e ed ed5 0% ,t h efound a t ionw a sp e n n i t t e d1 0· y e a r st om e e tt h e50% l e v e l . Th e Con f e r en c ec a rm i . t t e ea c c e p t e dt h eS en a t e app ro a ch ;h cM ev e r ,t h e 50% l e v e lo fp e n n i t t e dh o l d i n g sw a sr edu c edt oanu l t im a t e3 5% ,b u tana d d i t i o n a l1 5y e a r s( t o1994 )w a sp r o v i d e df o rt h a tr e d u c t i o n . Th er e s u l to ft h ep a n e l ' s· t e st i n o n yi n1969w a s ,t h e r e f o r e ,a s t a t u t e wh ich r e j e c t e dm and a to ry du r rp ingo fap r i v a t ef o u n d a t i o n ' ss t o c kont h e m a rk e t , C ! c t ion_W l l l c h :'WO u l dh av er e d u ce dt l ' i ' ev a l u eo ft h er em a in in gs h a r e s h e l dby t h ep r i v a t efoun d a t i o na sw e l la st h a to fa l i :o t h e rs h a r e h o l d e r s . Cong r e s s ag r e edt h a tf i v ey e a rd i v e s t i t u r ew a s toog r e a t n g r e s sn o ton l y .r e j e c t e d r e g u l a t i on sp ropo s e,b u tp e n n i t t e dap r i v a t efound a t i o nt or e t a i np r e -1969h o l d i n g sf o r e v e rt oar n a x im Jmo f3 5% . An e x amp l eo ft h ew i sO a no ft h a td e c i s i o ni sr e f l e c t e di nt h ei n c r e a s e i nv a l u eande a r n i n g so fo u rF o u n d a t i o n ' sh o l d i n g si nt h eK e l logg C anp any o v e rt h ep a s t1 0y e a r sa sca rpa redt oa ni n v e s t I r e n ti nad i v e r s i f i e dp o r t f o l i o . H a dt h eFound a t ionbeen f o r c e dt od i v e s to fi t s K e l logg C c x n p a n yh o l d i n g si n 1969 and v ei n v e s t e di na.p o r t f o l i or e p r e s e n t a t i v eo ft h eDow J on e s I n d u s t r i a lAv e r ag e ,f o re · $ 10 $ i n go n l y$90 .9 6 "~e byre~ ° ve~ e , t h e ~ ) ~ e rana i n - K e l iogg s t o c k ,f o rev e ry$ 1 0 0t h e h a s $124.7 wo rk ing f o rc h a r i t a b l ep u r p o s e s . A d d i t i o n a l l y ,t h ed i v i d e n d s onK e l logg C a rp any s t o c kh av ec o n s i s t e n t l yex c e ed edt h em a rk e t av e r ag e . F u r t h e r , thec o s to fa dm i n i s t e r i n gt h ep o r t f o l i oh a sbeen s u b s t a n t i a l l yl e s s thanYK ) u l dh av ebeen r e q u i r e dt om an ag e ad i v e r s i f i e dp o r t f o l i oo ft h eSa I IE -~ �- 5· . ,~ . ~ e r e f o r e ,t e tm v e s tm e n tr e t u r n• . . . . . a r roun t . Th h en J .. h a sb e e nf a rg r e a t e rthani £ d i v e r s i f i c a t i o nh adb e e nf o r c e d . Thu s , youc a ns e et b a tt h ep ropo s edr e g u l a t i o n sa r ec o n t r a r yt ot h e w i sd an o ft h eCong r e s s ion a ld e c i s i o ni n1969 . T h ep r o p o s a l sc o u l dr e q u i r e t h eF ound a t ionandFound a t ionT r u s tt od i s p o s eo f$ 4 0 0m i l l i o no fs t o c kw i t h i n 9 0d ay so fc o r p o r a t ea c t i o nt a k e nbyt h eK e l logg C anp any i nt h eno rn a l .c o u r s e o fi t s b u s i n e s s . A sa c o r p o r a t ed i r e c t o r ,w h e nc o n f r o n t e dw i t h ac o r p o r a t ea c q u i s i t i o n wh i ch v .D u l db ei nt h eb u s i n e s si n t e r e s to ft h ec anp any ,you rp ropo s edr e g u l a t i o n sv .D u l df o r c er o et ochoo s eb e tw e env o t i n ga g a i n s tt h er e o r g a n i z a t i o nw it h o u tr e g a r df o rt h ec o r p o r a t eb u s i n e s sanda l lo t h e rs h a r e h o l d e r s ,o rv o t i n g f o rt h ez e c rq an i . a a tdonand f o r c i n gt h ed i s p o s i t i o no f$400m i l l i o no ft h e F o u n d a t i o n ' si n v e s b r e n ta td i s t r e s sp r i c e s ,t h e r e b ye r o d i n gt h ev a l u eo ft h e F o u n d a t i o n ' s inv e s tm en tand t b a to ft lx>u s and so fo t h e rs h a r e h o l d e r sa sw e l l . A sa found a t ionm an ag e r and I b e l i e v eI speak f o ra l lfound a t ionm an ag e r s w h oa r ea f f e c t e dby t h e s ep ropo s edr e g u l a t i o n s Iwou ld n ev e ra t t a r p tt o m an ag et h ec anp anyf o rt h eb e n e f i to ft h eF ound a t ion ,o t h e rt b a nt oe x e r c i s e t h a tf i d u c i a r yo b l i g a t i o nwh i ch I ONe t h eF ound a t iont op r o t e c tandp r e s e r v e t h ev a l u eo fi t s I r rv e s tm en t . , A s ac o r p o r a t ed i r e c t o r ,Ih av et b a ts am e r e s p o n s i b i l i t yto ~ ~ re .. er Q J / t tbe te. o qX5 r -a t :± . \ How ev e r , you rp ropo s edr e g u l a t i o n s\>O . l l da t t a r p tt of o r c en et oa c t . I ~• r r r e s p o n sw y ,. t r f a n n i n gt h eF ound a t ion i n t oana g e n to ft h eT r e a su ry t o /1. e n f o r c es e l e c t i v er e s t r i c t i o n sonc o r p o r a t eb u s i n e s st r a n s a c t i o n s ' and\ \Qu ld s u p p l a n tt h einv e s tm en tn o t i o n so fT r e a su ry f o rt h o s eo ft h ef ound a t ionm an ag e r . �- 6Cong r e s sw a s awa r ei n1969 t h a ti t l a c k e dt h ee x p e r t i s et os e cond -gu e s st h e p a s tinv e s tm en t so ff o u n d a t i o nm an ag e r s andw i s e l y cho s et o" g r a n d f a t h e r " . . t h o s ee x i s t i n gh o l d i n g s . Th a t Cong r e s s ion a lw i sd an h a sb e e nr a t i f i e dby. t e ny e a r so fexp e r a en c e e t eny e a r so fp rov eni n v e s tm e n tp e r f o n n a n c e t e ny e a r s w it i x " J u tanex anp l eo fabu s e. ~ . ; amaw a r eo fnofound a t iont h a ta t . ~s i n c e1969h a si n c r e a s e d » : 'J i t s h o l d i n g si na b u s i n e s sen .r i s ei n ,wh i chi t owns a ( c )( 4 ) / i n t e r e s t . ~thatofthe P a r t i c u l a r l ywh e r et h ev a l u eo ft h e ...i n e s tm e n ti sa sg r e a t .... e ~Crnpany, i will be~ t od i s p o s e o ftheex c e s sO l l e r 35% ~ statutoryrateof1% ryearwithout having ap ro long eqadv e r s e. : j r o p a c tonthem a rk e tv ~f thes --anIrrpac Which K e l logg Found a t ion i nt h e byk a d v e r s e l y a f f e c t h :a r roun tr e a l i z e d / . Found a t iona s o ft h einv e s : t : t r en to fo t h e s h a r e h o l d • I t v . u u l d b ef a a ~ J r~ ~ reductions a foundn on ,w h e nf a c e d b a ti n p a c tby s h a r e . On o t h e rh and ,t h e w i s e r co e i st o u t i l i zo p p o r t u n i t i e sm a d e av a i 'a b l ebyc o r p o r a t ee x p a n s i ~ Foundation t ocoup l ed i l u t i o no f I S. i n t e r ef ' w i t ha c t l l : : ;-d i s p o s i t iO n . Th ep ropo s edr e g u l a t i o n swou ld e l im i n a t et h a tr e a s o n a b l eando r d e r l y r o e t h c d ' - f o rc a r r y i n go u tt h ei n t e n t _o f_ t h e _ s t a t u t e . . F i n a l l y , you rp ropo s edr e g u l a t i o n s wou ld i nf a c tr ew a rdabu s e . K e l l 0 J 9 Found a t ionwou ld b er e q u i r e dt od i s p o s eo f$ 4 0 0m i l l i o no fs t o c k b e c au s et h eF ound a t ionc o u l dn o tandwou ld n o te x e r c i s ec o n t r o lt op r e v e n t anaCX jU i s i t iono rn e r g e rt h a twas i nt h eb u s i n e s si n t e r e s to ft h eC c r n p a n y andi t s s h a r e h o l d e r s . On t h eo t h e rh a r r l ,i f a found a t iond i dc o n t r o la ' I t I �- 7b u s i n e s se n t e r p r i s es o l e l yf o rt h eFounda t .Lonvs b e n e f i t ,i t c o u l ds u r v i v e und e ryou rp r o p o s a l sandr e t a i ni t s s t a t u t o : r yr i g h t , Cong r e s sd i dn o t i n t e n dn o rw i l li t s a n c t i o nsu cha p e r v e r s er e s u l t . Th eT ax R e fonn A c to f1969 c o n t a i n e da c c r rp r eh en s . i v ep a ck ag eo fp r i v a t e found a t . ionr e f o n n s ,o fwh i ch·§4943 i s o n l yon e . T h ec o s to fc c rop l .L an c ehas b e enc o n s i d e r a b l e . Th eK e l logg Found a t ionandFound a t ionT r u s thas exp end ed a1 : r ro s t$ 1 0m i l l i o nd u r i n gthep a s t10y e a r si ne x c i s et a x e sandf o rc r n p l i a n c e , - 5Q -y e a r s dea . ; f-~ Th e -K e l log g - ~ .~ - rr - - ~. -.~ w i t ht h e~ f the1969A c t -I i e f e a l r ro s t ;2 0y e a r sp r i o r· t ot h e ~e- r. ~~ e. sedregu la t ions(, a , ~~ A f te r ; th0 t1gh t . : fu lo n s i ~) i n t ot h esoundm an aq em en t ;o fp h i l a n t h r o p i cr e s o u r c e s .~ A . h t , i . . .\ ' l l . / ~ 4 s t a t u t ei s t obe r e p e a l e d ,i t shou ldbe z ep e a l . ed b yCong r e s s ,n o tbyr . e g u l a t i o n . I ~ intrusion:5 .n . r : : - cf2.<> -~~- ~~ tk - ~- . . -- -~. / \ v- ~~e en a c t e d§4943c )( 4 )t o" g r a n d f a t h e r "t h ep r e l 9 6 9h o l d i n g so f p r i v a t ef o u n d a t i o n s , I f \ wh i ch W ) Founda t ionhad i . r rp l e r c en t ed � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby Papers Subject The topic of the resource Charities Family foundations--Michigan Philanthropy and society Description An account of the resource The Russell Mawby papers document the life and work of Michigan-born Russell Mawby from 1928 to the present. Mawby was the Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation for twenty-five years and is recognized for his work in the area of philanthropy in the United States, Latin America, and Europe. The digital collection includes a selection of field notes, speeches, itineraries, and other materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell G. W.K. Kellogg Foundation Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby Papers (JCPA-01). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson Center for Philanthropy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-2012 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby papers, JCPA-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01_1979-09-06_RMawby_SPE Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby testimony on the proposed regulations on private foundations, Excess Business Holdings of Private Foundations Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell Description An account of the resource Testimony given before the Internal Revenue Service for the W. K. Kellogg Foundation concerning the proposed regulations on private foundations, 1979. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society Family foundations--Michigan Charities Speeches, addresses, etc. Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1979-09-06 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a6cca9b482dde88002f5dae6a683aac7.pdf effb39967984dd5973c455211738d699 PDF Text Text TESTIMONY OF RUSSELL G. MAWBY CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER W.K. KELLOGG FOUNDATION HOUSE TAXATION COMMITTEE STATE OF MONTANA APRIL 3,1995 Good morning . My name is Russ Mawby, and I am chairman of the Board and chief executive officer of the W .K. Kellogg Foundation, located in Battle Creek, Michigan. I am privileged to be here today and truly appreciate this opportunity to visit with you about a very important matter. As you may know, the Kellogg Foundation, one of the world's largest private foundations, has long been committed to supporting the development of systems to encourage philanthropy and volunteerism nationally - and at the community level. This interest has led to our support for developing and strengthening community foundations in the state of Michigan. �We at the Kellogg Foundation believe in the value of community foundations - the most exciting institutional development in philanthropy today. Community foundations bring permanence and flexibility to those organizations working to solve issues at the community level. Their ability to transfer working assets from one generation to another, their leadership , and their broad viewpoint make them critical components of what we acknowledge as a civil society. In so many ways , they are a major part of the solution for dealing with issues and concerns at the community level. Every citizen in the state of Michigan is indeed fortunate to be served by a community foundation in their local city, township, or village ... partly as a result of the Michigan Community Foundation Tax Credit, which was enacted in 1988. The Kellogg Foundation supports such a tax credit because it helps to build the assets of community foundations . We support the development of community foundations because the most exciting solutions to today's problems are those not coming from Washington , 2 �or even from Helena. They are coming from our local communities. Local leaders are the ones who are closest to problems and the ones best equipped to solve them. Local leaders cannot solve community problems all by themselves. They need arrows for their quivers, and perhaps the sharpest arrow is the community foundation. Community foundations are the most community-based of all philanthropic institutions. They are the most flexible, and they can support a wide range of initiatives to improve the community. Their activities can range from economic development to social services, from recreation to health care, from soup kitchens to neighborhood development. But community foundations are more than money-givers. They also serve as conveners for important community meetings, as "honest brokers" to help build teams of organizations to solve problems. In short, community foundations serve as a catalyst for change. Since 3 �they serve all the interests in the community, they can bring all of them together to make things happen. Because the trustees and staff of community foundations live in their communities, they can help new initiatives with their personal involvement. as well as with funds . We believe the credit helps to build the capacity of these organizations to fund and to lead. Today, I would like to encourage your enactment of a community foundation tax credit for the residents of Montana. This innovative legislation by the state of Montana would provide a strong incentive to encourage charitably-inclined individu als to give to their local communities. Such a tax credit would provide an incentive for other charities to talk . to community foundations regarding the establishment of permanent endowments that are restricted for the use of their organizations. 4 �Because community foundations have the capacity to manage restricted funds for other nonprofits, agencies such as United Way, Girl Scouts, Boy Scouts, Hospitals, Hospice, women's shelters, 4-H Clubs, museums, libraries, school systems, and others have established endowment funds within community foundations throughout Michigan. All of these endowment funds qualify for a tax credit. With such a tax credit, many of these organizations in Montana would, for the first time, be able to strategically plan for their longterm financial security through permanent assets. This is the best "win/win" strategy for everyone in the community. Without a tax credit for community foundations, these other organizations might be years away from having the organizational capacity to handle legally complex planned gifts . By having the community foundation manage the endowments, organizations will receive the benefits of long-term, stabilized funding. 5 �At the same time, the community foundation can grow through managing these assets more efficiently, thereby reducing the costs of managing these funds , while achieving greater growth and returns. In turn, these organizations could receive the tax credit for their permanently endowed funds. The tax credit would provide a tool and incentive to build this community trust between agencies. I see the leveraging opportunity in this small tax advantage as a way to build your communities. I would encourage you to take the long view: that is, if you make your community strong - the state will be strong. Should you pass up such a tax credit for community foundations, I believe that you will lose the opportunity for establishing some new philanthropists in Montana. You will lose one tool for building collaboration at the community level. You will lose an important outreach tool to new donors. And you will lose an incentive for your community nonprofits to establish permanent endowment funds . 6 �We also believe that such a tax credit could serve as a catalyst in the establishment of a network of strong community foundations to serve communities throughout the state of Montana. Such a group of local foundations would be positioned to tackle statewide problems through locally-designed programs. These issues might include water and air quality, youth development, support for the arts, and education reform. This credit would come at a time which is critical to the building of these local funds. Other foundations such as Ford, Lilly, Rockefeller, Mott, Packard, and MacArthur, as well as Kellogg, have provided funding for projects managed by community foundations. These programs can be new dollars coming into states to help solve local problems. The dollars can flow throuqhout the community because the community foundation is there to manage them. 7 �Finally, this tax credit would be an enormous help to the building of capital , both for the community foundations and for other nonprofit charities . I believe that this tax credit would stimulate new donors to start to give to community foundations, and if our experience in Michigan is any indication, they would not change their gifts to other charities. These are new, private monies in permanent endowments that are available to accomplish public good. We would strongly encourage you to support what we believe would be a very effective and beneficial tax policy. Thank you. S:\COMM\PUBLlC\TAXDOC 8 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby Papers Subject The topic of the resource Charities Family foundations--Michigan Philanthropy and society Description An account of the resource The Russell Mawby papers document the life and work of Michigan-born Russell Mawby from 1928 to the present. Mawby was the Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation for twenty-five years and is recognized for his work in the area of philanthropy in the United States, Latin America, and Europe. The digital collection includes a selection of field notes, speeches, itineraries, and other materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell G. W.K. Kellogg Foundation Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby Papers (JCPA-01). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson Center for Philanthropy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-2012 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby papers, JCPA-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01_1995-04-03_RMawby_SPE Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby testimony before the House Taxation Committee Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell Description An account of the resource Testimony given April 3, 1995 for the W. K. Kellogg Foundation at the State of Montana House Taxation Committee. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society Family foundations--Michigan W. K. Kellogg Foundation Charities Speeches, addresses, etc. Legislation Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1995-04-03 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8fdbad95d195464e76176712200b4bed.pdf b1c36e2d7d7a9064553746cc9322eb4c PDF Text Text THE ROLE OF THE COMMUNITY COLLEGE IN THE DECADE OF COMMUNITY DR. RUSSELL G. MAWBY Chairman and Chief Executive Offic er W.K. Kellogg Foundation Battle Creek, Michigan Sinc e the 1 9 9 0s seems destined to become the Decade of the Community, ther e will be boundless tremendous impact in opportunities the local for community colleges communi ties they serve by lea d e r s h i p initiatives in the areas of so cietal concern. to hav e developing I am pleased to be invited to comment on community and the role of community colleges in the 1990s. In thinking relates to conc erns. about the common is happening good, I in contemporary wa.s . tempted to society begin with a as it list of However, it would be presumptuous and inappropriate for me to propose such a f act, what long cafeteria list of issues, for each of us knowledgeable about the concerns of our world, is, our country, in our state, and particularly, our home communities. Instead, I have observations chosen about in societal a broad issues overview for which to briefly the share implications five for community colleges and their leadership are rather apparent. Observation 1: The seeming inability of our political processes and institutions to deal with significant issues in substantial ways This is most vivid at the national level. Today, Congress is struggling ineffectively with concerns such as fiscal and financial responsibility, �trade imbalance, the arts, farm programs, energy policy, foreign affairs, child care, and environmental quality. support of Most state politicians are equally ineffective on matters of school finance, state budget, worker's compensation, and a host of other concerns. Technology has politicians. the dramatically the nature of politics and New techniques of sophisticated, instantaneous polling and influence of mass media seem changed to have forced treatment on every issue and personality elected 'o f f i c i a l s to become society and more followers of the herd. only after consensus has been reached, less the leaders of There is a tendency to lead to wait and see which way parade is going, and then rush to its head. the Another change, which has influenced the political process to society's disadvantage, has been the increase in number, variety, groups. Collectively, and effectiveness of special through the concept of entitlement, interest they have handcuffed political responses to changing needs. Today, there are few elected officials who could be described statespersons with vision, commitment, and a concern for the whole. as For voters, patterns of political power also have changed dramatically, with greater diffusion and less loyalty t.o' 'pa r t y and purpose. The net effect of these changes has been the lessening of the government's ability, at all levels, to be a catalyst for social change. This, then, ini tiatives, suggests an enhanced potential which demonstrate new answers to for societal private-sector needs. ventures can provide the vision and comprehensive approach, These which the political process fails to provide. Observation 2: The seeming return (shift back) to local responsibility and control in addressing societal needs For a span of about six decades - from the progressive era at the turn of the century to the late 1960s, and, particularly, beginning with the 2 �New Deal in the 1930s - the federal government took an ever-increasing role in meeting 1970s, that the trend Increasingly, needs has of first the American people. slowed, and now Since seems the to early reverse. states and localities are being asked to deliver services and provide benefits to people at the community level. This situation poses problems for nearly all states and localities and puts pressure on the tax system, especially, to raise revenues to cover increased state and local expenditures. A desirable consequence is that more problems are being identified and dealt with closer to home. And, as we all know, the answers usually lie not in dollars alone, but in the increased commitment and involvement of people who care. are obvious: more Again, opportunities for private-sector initiatives There is a desperate need to become more efficient and effective in using limited resources and in mobilizing local leadership. Observation 3: The dichotomy between the nature of the problems that concern us and the solutions we devise The problems of concern to society tend to be multidisciplinary, overarching, penetrating, and permeating. complex, Each of us can make our own list - inflation, K-12 and higher education, home care for the peace. elderly, To groundwater, the contrary, environmental quality, job generation, the solutions most often devised to address such issues tend to be narrow, discipline- or profession-oriented, and biased, simplistic, and inadequate to the task. A major contribution of community colleges in addressing societal needs can be to encourage and demonstrate programs involve collaboration, and provide continuity. 3 that are comprehensive, �Observation 4: The persistent reluctance to face facts and to deal with reality Resistance to change is a human characteristic, comfortable with evidence is overwhelming, reluctant to things respond. most both individuals and their institutions are a truism that concern, we know better than we do." be of special interest to you: even feel the is Sometimes, of us when It familiar. and most "in most cases of human Think only of the areas that may substance abuse, K-12 education, health care, the environment, or any other. For example, if we think of child development in the early years, we know that age five is too late for societal concern and intervention. Yet, most communities lack comprehensive early-childhood and preschool programs of high quality. The evidence is clear that the elementary years are most important and that school drop-outs can be predicted by grades six or seven. Still, we persist in accrediting our high schools and starving the elementary schools -whenever resources are limited. Furthermore, many teachers will tell you that it takes the first three months of the new school year to catch up to where students were before summer vacation . learning during Yet, the we persist summer in having months a a three-month school-year model break in established nearly 200 years ago by an agrarian society. Another example of reluctance to react to reality and make change is in the area of corrections. Pennsylvania recently When discussing penal reform, commented, person in the state pen, "It costs $24, 000 a the governor of year to keep but only $8,000 a year at Penn State." a Yet, creative efforts to deal with this overwhelming problem are virtually nonexistent. 4 �We as a society, through our institutions and organizations, must put to better use that which is already known. Here community colleges can ·be a key catalyst. Observation 5: The persistence of "turfism" in addressing societal needs Usually programs continuity. human Battle service Creek, for are badly example, fragmented have lack identified voluntary, nonprofit groups directed to the needs of youth. Pluralism competition can also be healthy; we and 67 is good; In of but infighting, adversarial stances, and combative behavior are not! The clearest example in our hometown was hospitals, virtually across the street from each other, from less than 50 percent occupancy. host of in health care. other Department health of Public care In addition, organizations Health, American Cross, each suffering we have the usual Visiting Red We had two Nurse Hospice. Service, Meals on Wheels, voluntary ambulances services, and many more. Unhappily. while each is composed of intelligent, able. dedicated, and well-intentioned individuals, each also tends to address issues from the perspective of their organizational or institutional objectives. is concerned activities with of its others own niche, and too with often not insufficient sensitive attention comprehensive health needs of the people of the community. Each to to the the In Battle Creek, we finally succeeded in getting the two hospitals to merge. Now we are in the process of getting the other players to join the team. Again, colleges there to is· a be an challenge influence and in a great bringing comprehensive, collaborative, and continuous. 5 opportunity about for services community that are �Growing out of these observations are four thoughts -- two concerns and two challenges about community colleges and their role in the decade of community that I have briefly chosen to share. Caution 1: Don't succwnb to the temptation to become something other than what society desperately needs you to be. The role that community tremendously significant. growing, successful colleges But, playing in communities is there is increasing temptation for any institution bigger or more structured. is to change, to evolve into something Many community colleges have started down the path to become four-year institutions. In my opinion, this is a tragic mistake. Look at the numbers in my home state of Michigan. established colleges and universities. When There are 15 state- you examine budget it is clear that 15 is more than we can afford. the state Each of these 15 institutions does little to vary from the same, rather rigid approach to higher education -- teaching essentially in a highly structured pattern of courses, for credit, in classrooms, on campus. Michigan also has 29 with needs the concerned special with classroom to community colleges, teaching, of not the each unique, communities research, the people -- whether on and they are campus, each concerned serve. willing in a to local They are take the elementary school, or in a nearby mechanic's shop -- at times when people are able to participate. We, as a community and as a society, need community colleges to remain true to their original vision and mission. Caution 2: As institutions protocols, divisions, Fight the tendency to become institutionalized. grow procedures, departments, there is a tendency and to build walls catalogs, establish patterns, through the development calendars, 6 to contracts, etc. of In �institutions that have undergone this evolution something doesn't fit into a prescribed small box, to rigidity, if it simply cannot be done. John Gardner may have put it best in his book entitled, The Individual societies are and the young, Innovative they are Society: flexible, "When fluid, not Self-renewal: organizations and yet paralyzed by rigid specialization and a willingness to try anything once. As the organization or society ages, vitality diminishes, flexibility gives way to rigidity, creativity fades and there is a loss of capacity to meet challenges from unexpected directions." Community colleges have to avoid this type of institutionalization that can lead to a lack of sensitivity to the needs of the community. Community college leaders must work to keep their institutions flexible entities in a changing community. Challenge 1: To be even more responsive to the needs of the community. Community colleges are by tradition committed and experienced to be a leader in addressing community concerns. In this decade of community, community colleges will be challenged to be even more proactive and more of a catalyst in collaboration than they have in the past. think of your individual community's agenda, list of issues emerges. are endless and The possible roles distinctive to each When you I am sure a rather lengthy for the community college community. They have the opportunity to transform local communities through their resources and their ability to act as an agent of change. Challenge 2: To play an increasingly major role with nonprofit organizations in your community. When you look at life at the community level, much of its character, its quality, its organizations. caring is connected Imagine your with nonprofit community without 7 institutions the nonprofit and sector. �There would be no churches or religious organizations; activities would be youth education. severely damaged, as social service would efforts in adult and Without the nonprofit sector, the arts and health care would be virtually nonexistent. In this decade of community, where responsibility has been shifted but resources, for the most part, remain at the federal and state level, the need for development, training, and collaboration among organizations in the nonprofit sector is essential for their survival. Community colleges can play an increasingly important role in providing preservice and inservice training for nonprofits, their staff, and their boards. I am convinced that changes that will come in our society will be a result of the work of volunteer citizen boards. Those organizations that have become institutionalized cannot be changed from within, only the work of ci tizen boards archi tects and energizers -- of change will alter these organizations to meet the increasing needs of community. While all nonprofits are well-intentioned in the community, many efforts are fragmented and lack a common focus. In Battle Creek, for example, there are 87 agencies working with youth. Seldom does one know what the other of providing a is doing and there is never talk continuum of service and educational opportunities for young people in our community. Community colleges have the ability, organizations and to assist them through their resources, in developing these to focus comprehensive approaches to issues and concerns of the community. In conclusion, it is clear that most of the significant new directions imperative to our societal future will not be charted by government. In fact, many elected officials are almost desperate for better answers or proposed solutions to perplexing issues. their unique ability to react to local Community colleges, because of and regional needs must be responsive to changing societal circumstances and opportunity. Community creative, level. colleges have a rich collaborative approaches tradition of innovation, to human concerns nurturing at the community These traits will be needed more than ever before in the 1990s 8 �the decade of community. A decade that can be, should be, and will be the de cade of the community co llege, if you choose to make it so. 9 � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby Papers Subject The topic of the resource Charities Family foundations--Michigan Philanthropy and society Description An account of the resource The Russell Mawby papers document the life and work of Michigan-born Russell Mawby from 1928 to the present. Mawby was the Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation for twenty-five years and is recognized for his work in the area of philanthropy in the United States, Latin America, and Europe. The digital collection includes a selection of field notes, speeches, itineraries, and other materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell G. W.K. Kellogg Foundation Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby Papers (JCPA-01). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson Center for Philanthropy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-2012 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby papers, JCPA-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01_1992-09_RMawby_SPE Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby speech, The Role of the Community College in the Decade of Community Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell Description An account of the resource Speech given September, 1992 for the W. K. Kellogg Foundation on the importance of community colleges in the community. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society Family foundations--Michigan W. K. Kellogg Foundation Charities Speeches, addresses, etc. Education Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1992-09-01 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6b3fa39b7b5155c2c68d0db3e7290e98.pdf dc058589b1bb0abffb4a9ef95513ea91 PDF Text Text THE UNIVERSE OF .QU\J"""TIO YOUTH W'by, Director Russ 11 G. Divi ion of icultur W. elio Fo tion To be vith you for thi ppreci ted privil ch in vi th to m t one provo tive . ch- l!01ioTC"oIrer, I my n urpos ten ion du b Foun t ion , tt 0 rtunities of ut 0 vorld vi . K 110 ro r Foun t ion . spen ibi 11tics in th ch uc ton . n to tho Th of Ext naion rci 1 a lpeo l , icult ur, nt . ce pted the i nvi t ion 0 part of t his pro Lloyd Rutle l e th e ture of t dift' rent than your , our interest i v to t , I vill not dv 11 on , youth deve10 lly t of t h Foun tion i in S B to curr nt reapensibiliti my tion r e very ti C is th th W. in s co or , I t n dir ctions i n co I 100 n you, individual ly fo dto ny col l ct i vely, on pro 1 illtere t . Th1 rni l i f'yi confid nCe I int n ut th s t you v i l l your own di eussion s ion . dir etly to e rt in nd t nts: t io vith inter i tin and uld ob of the Kelio Th rticular Conference pon ibil iti Un!versity nd ErtelLGion, lly velcome the OpPOrtunity es in 4-H . of thi r unexpect i spected nd coveted co ll i l l y, vile t ete cription of d r ' Conf erenc Of course , I pereo my the t h 1 4-H Le tio p eta of s. r obs rvations into proper turc pro essio Fir t - to r efl ct ttedly over- C experi 11 ttee ve on our discus ion of t I do t hi vith r spect i v on thro th specific nay nd Tue , • �n our C ." hip t lad v1 rn vi 1n nte t ebni 1n 1 1n 0 prof' t, e1 11 t10nj t pro tha be I I t ut prof 10 11 nt. tth t rs 1 1b111ty 1 11 lc 1n eo et10 et 0 ur eo p of yo • On to l1ve of our ly I I to h lp tb t poin I Dr. �- 3 • it to i ell ti ion of co ~ ''l!.T'ltl i • T1lll' I On robl I tio it i of 1n:t'1d 11ty to on ch ly 1n.teJ:"de:per.1.d1 e n t .............. i r 8hi e, f1 1r e2i!lPhi:~s1 of au thc)U,g;h't-proVOlUIllg d1 CU8 10n 0 r ity on 10n t rv D1r e 4- e. fort th in .1AIlCl~lirs.n·t UA.I~ Un1 r i ty BVI~'te!'m rei y of to rvi r 4. yout in t of 1 . n1 rahi to then , v 10 e1 1 c P. of view' in I v1ll ev 10 d thr re ultant d1 r1 te, c for to to hip, lat10 11 th1 Un1 1 erea.s1r.tg rr in 10 e rvat10ns ndorD~~ut nt ...n t• ., ... of c 1 rof ob trer::leJ1CIOUS OOil~rer. eon:f'id byt chaJ.le bett r job. 10 not c 1n both Be pr implie1t 11 sen~tion th discus 10 to f1 n um:msvclred t, tion of JAJlO.~liI"3l.Ut Un1v r 1 ty �- 4n ien i ndu t 1on ; i t 1b1 l1 t i 1 I 4 - o f t - co Coo I npus you d 10 n t ion t o t t Un1 r s i t I 1 A~'''''''''' '' t o c o n t r i ion U n ! ri t y ' C1'">n1n.." , . , : 1 u h . " ' f " . l " I f ' r t I o r tt h i n �- 5t 10 ot iv1 1. �-6th1 i n 1 con er no r r 1e t conv ie t10 , rp r c ) c edw : a l 1 . VO l l ILt p e c )p J . e . I n0 "e x l ; ,e n to f I n c j o r1n: 'l.u: ~no. l i n l y ' ,( b ) 1 ,U lo ' /A l ; :u t: ( ) , ch CO : : i : lCU l l1 ty I I. O \U ' " w i th Th u l t1m a t e b 1 ObO l f rV ' l' l . t1 . t t .:J. . . . 'OU "U ' w i l l t o o lthe :mne ~ 1~'~~ o r1 o r 1 o n , " t n o �1tnss1J%U , . ) • 1 ) , I d eV .U~l 1C!nt 0 rt. m~JAlut1 . . . . . . .1 . " ' \ .04 , Jvo . ; r : ! 1 '0 . 11 : .h e · r , YO l l th , I t )1 2 . o t l l e r1 1 m t 'A " " ' 1 1 n , ? ] , yd 1 f ' : t1 �3 . le~n1I .:: o r1 t . t .1ontomnr-nu l l ! t .h , v i 1 , r1 5 . , . . . . 1 J \ . .u . . . . c h m o t i , r a t o . 1 o,u t t o d: y yo v i C . , " e1 Y ' , co. ,Inc . , ��- 10 ri, t llty to 0 1 oJ -''-'''> I . viti nI to with th lly Thi r inc1 �- 11 - ily not • • in .;;:;x'WIlDie '... .... ''''............ 0 'W' COltlulm1.n.:.Ltion I Bu �o 1 , " ,I ' ' " "~"" " '..... . ,U f . .1" ' . . . . _ ,. . . . . ~~ ..." 11 1 1 . t no t 1 11 "o r t 1 1 �t ocon t t 1 1 ,0 t t a t r t . n r :L l y ......., " " ...r 1 pm : -po. c e ' l " C UJ 1~1 1 no -, th l re :J . , to IW l t l ,d i n pe4 ; )1 )JLe, 1 t t o o c lt yden r an c lB 1 b l, �-1 - 5 . 1.n t1"" ""·~r t r o l , � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby Papers Subject The topic of the resource Charities Family foundations--Michigan Philanthropy and society Description An account of the resource The Russell Mawby papers document the life and work of Michigan-born Russell Mawby from 1928 to the present. Mawby was the Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation for twenty-five years and is recognized for his work in the area of philanthropy in the United States, Latin America, and Europe. The digital collection includes a selection of field notes, speeches, itineraries, and other materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell G. W.K. Kellogg Foundation Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby Papers (JCPA-01). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson Center for Philanthropy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-2012 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby papers, JCPA-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01_1977-09-09_RMawby_SPE Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby speech, Youth in the Universe of Education Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell Description An account of the resource Speech given September 9, 1977 for the W. K. Kellogg Foundation at the National 4-H Leader's Conference. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society Family foundations--Michigan W. K. Kellogg Foundation Charities Speeches, addresses, etc. Education Youth Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1977-09-09 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/208a5173ff48e3604a5e91642573048d.pdf 83feced43505b89105857e25c29a5a78 PDF Text Text PAGE 1 HTHE GREATEST OPPORTUNITYH DELIVERED AT HTOWN AND GOWN H BREAKFAST UNIVERSITY OF NEBRASKA AT LINCOLN WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 7, 1988 DR. RUSSELL G. MAWBY CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER W. K. KELLOGG FOUNDATION THE TOPIC ON WHICH I HAVE BEEN ASKED TO COMMENT THIS MORNING IS HYOUTH IN CRISIS. H I WILL TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE PROBLEMS THAT OUR YOUNG PEOPLE FACE AND DESCRIBE SOME POSSIBLE SOLUTIONS. THESE SHOULD NOT BE CONSIDERED, HOWEVER, TO BE THE HOFFICIAL AGENDA H OF THE W. K. KELLOGG FOUNDATION. THE KELLOGG FOUNDATION HAS FROM ITS VERY FOUNDING HELD THE PHILOSOPHY THAT THE FOUNDATION DOES NOT HAVE THE ANSWERS TO THE PROBLEMS OF PEOPLE. RATHER, WE ARE ISSUE-ORIENTED, IDENTIFYING CERTAIN PROBLEMS WHICH SEEM TO BE OF SIGNIFICANCE TO SOCIETY. BUT WE DO NOT ATTEMPT TO BE PRESCRIPTIVE, THAT IS WE DO NOT TELL PEOPLE HOW TO SOLVE THEIR PROBLEMS. WE ARE ANXIOUS TO BE INVOLVED WITH THOSE WHO SHARE OUR CONCERN AND ARE TRYING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. WE WILL WORK WITH THEM TO SHARPEN AND REFINE THEIR IDEAS, BUT ULTIMATELY, SINCE THEY ARE THE ONES WHO MUST DEAL WITH THEIR CONCERNS, THE ANSWERS MUST COME FROM THEM, NOT FROM US. RECENTLY IN MY READING, I CAME ACROSS A VERY STRONG COMPLAINT ABOUT YOUTH. THE YOUNG: THE WRITER HAD THIS TO SAY ABOUT �PAGE 2 "OUR YOUTH NOW LOVE LUXURY -- THEY HAVE BAD MANNERS AND CONTEMPT FOR AUTHORITY. . . . CHILDREN ARE NOW TYRANTS -- NOT THE SERVANTS OF THEIR HOUSEHOLDS. THEY CONTRADICT THEIR PARENTS . . . AND TYRANNIZE THEIR TEACHERS . . . " THIS STATEMENT SOUNDS VERY MUCH LIKE THE STUMP SPEECH OF SOMEONE RUNNING FOR OFFICE, OR THE CRY OF A DISTRESSED PARENT, OR PERHAPS THE COMPLAINT OF THE FRUSTRATED TEACHER OR SCHOOL ADMINISTRATOR. BUT THE QUOTATION IS ACTUALLY ATTRIBUTED TO SOCRATES WHO LIVED IN THE 5TH CENTURY, B.C. WE CAN SEE FROM THIS STATEMENT THAT THE CONCERN FOR YOUTH IS NOT A PHENOMENON NEW TO SOCIETY; IN FACT, VIRTUALLY EVERY GENERATION SINCE HISTORY HAS BEEN RECORDED HAS EXPRESSED GRAVE CONCERN ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THEIR YOUNG PEOPLE. BUT IT MIGHT SEEM TO US THAT WE HAVE MORE LEGITIMATE GROUNDS TO COMPLAIN THAN HAS ANY OTHER PREVIOUS GENERATION. ONE NEED ONLY POINT TO THE CONSTANT BOMBARDMENT OF ARTICLES IN THE MEDIA AND STORIES ON THE TELEVISION NEWS ABOUT SKY-ROCKETING DROPOUT RATES, DISCOURAGINGLY HIGH PERCENTAGES OF UNEMPLOYED YOUTH, A VIRTUAL EPIDEMIC OF TEEN PREGNANCY, THE FRIGHTENING AND GROWING INSTANCES OF SUBSTANCE ABUSE, THE UNPRECEDENTED LEVELS OF TEEN SUICIDE, THE INCREASING EVIDENCE OF �PAGE 3 ANTISOCIAL BEHAVIOR, THE APPALLINGLY HIGH RATES OF ILLITERACY, AND THE GENERAL LACK OF MOTIVATION AMONG OUR YOUNG PEOPLE. IT IS ESPECIALLY EASY TO BECOME DEPRESSED WHEN WE LOOK AT THE IMPACT A LACK OF OPPORTUNITY HAS HAD UPON THE YOUNG OF MINORITIES AND THE POOR. BUT THESE GRIM STATISTICS DO NOT TELL THE ENTIRE STORY. THESE SAME STATISTICS PAINT QUITE A DIFFERENT PICTURE: SIXTY PERCENT OF ALL TEENAGE GIRLS DO NOT BECOME PREGNANT. SEVENTY PERCENT OF ALL TEENAGERS DO NOT REGULARLY GET DRUNK. SIXTY PERCENT HAVE NOT REGULARLY USED MARIJUANA FOR AT LEAST A YEAR, AND 73 PERCENT OF EIGHTH GRADERS EVENTUALLY GRADUATE (AND, ACCORDING TO FIGURES RECENTLY RELEASED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION, THE PERCENTAGE OF STUDENTS WHO DROP OUT HAS BEEN SLOWLY FALLING OVER THE LAST 15 YEARS). LEAVING ASIDE STATISTICS FOR THE MOMENT, WE MIGHT CONSIDER OUR OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE. I WOULD WAGER THAT EVERYONE OF US KNOWS PERSONALLY OR COMES INTO CONTACT DAILY WITH DOZENS OF YOUNG PEOPLE WHO ARE ALERT, INTELLIGENT, PATRIOTIC, HONEST, HARD-WORKING, AND AMBITIOUS. ARE WE TO MAKE OF THE STATE OF TODAY'S YOUTH? SO WHAT MANY, TOO MANY, OF OUR YOUNG PEOPLE ARE HAVING SERIOUS PROBLEMS. THERE IS GROUNDS FOR CONCERN AND A NEED FOR ACTION. WE MUST NEVER FORGET THE POSITIVE ASPECTS AS WELL. BUT WE MUST NOT OVER-REACT BUT RATHER CALIBRATE OUR PROPOSED SOLUTIONS TO MEET THE TRUE DIMENSIONS OF THE PROBLEM. �PAGE 4 FROM MY VANTAGE POINT WORKING FOR A FOUNDATION THAT HAS BEEN HISTORICALLY INTERESTED IN YOUTH, I AM ABLE TO SEE LITERALLY SCORES OF SUCH PROPOSED SOLUTIONS EVERY YEAR. THE GREAT TENDENCY IN AN ERA OF SPECIALIZATION AND SPECIAL INTEREST, IS TO ADOPT A CRISIS MENTALITY TO DEAL WITH THE BITS AND PIECES OF PROBLEMS: WE HAVE ALL HEARD OF THE CRISIS OF THE ENVIRONMENT, THE CRISIS OF HEALTH CARE, THE CRISIS OF ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT. GRANTED, THESE ARE ALL CRITICALLY IMPORTANT ISSUES ON SOCIETY'S AGENDA. BUT THEY ARE ALSO COMPLEX PROBLEMS WHICH HAVE EVOLVED OVER A LONG PERIOD. IT IS UNLIKELY THAT A SPECIFIC APPROACH OR A QUICK SOLUTION WILL BE SUFFICIENT TO SOLVE THEM. AS GRANTMAKERS, WE ARE CONFRONTED WITH MANY PROPOSALS THAT ARE VERY NARROW AND SPECIFIC. ON THE SUBJECT OF YOUTH, THESE PROPOSALS FREQUENTLY ZERO IN ON SUCH NARROW AREAS AS SUBSTANCE ABUSE, TEEN PREGNANCY, OR THE DROPOUT PROBLEM. THEY TEND NOT TO DEAL WITH THE LARGER AND MORE PERVASIVE ISSUES IN A YOUNG PERSON'S LIFE SUCH AS THE HOME AND FAMILY, THE NEIGHBORHOOD AND SOCIAL ENVIRONMENT, EDUCATIONAL AND LEISURE-TIME OPPORTUNITIES. I AM SIMPLY SUGGESTING THAT IT IS TIME THAT WE AS A NATION LOOK MORE COMPREHENSIVELY AT YOUTH IN CONTEMPORARY AMERICAN SOCIETY. FINE. DO WE LIKE WHAT WE SEE? IF SO, THAT IS IF NOT, WE NEED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. SURELY, �PAGE 5 EVERYONE WILL AGREE THAT THOSE YOUNG PEOPLE WHO ARE MOST AT RISK MUST BE HELPED. LESS OBVIOUSLY, WE NEED TO FIND WAYS TO HELP THOSE WHO ARE NOT TECHNICALLY AT RISK STAY OUT OF TROUBLE. WE NEED TO CHALLENGE THEM; WE NEED TO FIND WAYS TO MAKE SURE THAT THEIR LIVES ARE TOO FULL OF INTERESTING AND EXCITING THINGS TO DO TO FIND TIME TO GET INTO TROUBLE. BEFORE. THINGS ARE DIFFERENCT TODAY THAN EVER MANY OF THE CHANGES IN SOCIETY HAVE GREAT IMPACT ON THE PROCESS OF GROWING UP. LET ME ILLUSTRATE WITH JUST FOUR ISSUES . . . ONE NEED ONLY LOOK AT THE CHANGING DEMOGRAPHICS OF THE AMERICAN FAMILY TO UNDERSTAND WHY SO MANY YOUTH TODAY ARE IN 1955, 60 PERCENT OF ALL AMERICAN HAVING PROBLEMS. FAMILIES CONSISTED OF A WORKING fATHER, A MOTHER WHO WAS A HOMEMAKER, AND TWO SCHOOL-AGE CHILDREN. By 1985, LESS THAN TWO GENERATIONS LATER, THAT NUMBER HAD SHRUNK TO SEVEN PERCENT. THE DEMOGRAPHERS TELL US THAT OUT OF EVERY 100 CHILDREN BORN TODAY, 12 ARE BORN OUT OF WEDLOCK AND 40 ARE BORN TO PARENTS WHO WILL BE DIVORCED BY THE TIME THE CHILD REACHES 18. ONE-HALF OF THESE CHILDREN WILL LIVE IN A HOME WITH THE MOTHER WORKING OUT OF THE HOUSEHOLD. WHETHER WE LIKE IT OR NOT, THESE ENORMOUS DEMOGRAPHIC SHIFTS MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN THE LIVES OF CHILDREN. �PAGE 6 YET IN OUR SOCIETY, WE FACE THESE MASSIVE CHANGES WITH INSTITUTIONS THAT ARE ESSENTIALLY UNCHANGED. WE NEED TO BE MORE RESPONSIVE TO THE NEW NEEDS THAT THIS NEW SOCIETY HAS BROUGHT WITH IT. LET ME BE MORE SPECIFIC AND TALK FOR A MOMENT ABOUT THE AREAS WHERE CHANGES MUST COME: 1. EARLIEST CHILDHOOD -- RESEARCH HAS REPEATEDLY DEMONSTRATED THAT THE MOST IMPORTANT TWO YEARS IN A PERSON'S LIFE ARE THE FIRST TWO. WE MUST WORK TO ENSURE THAT THE BEST QUALITY OF CARE AND NURTURING IS ACHIEVED DURING THOSE TWO CRITICAL YEARS. 2. PARENTING -- ALL PARENTS ARE AMATEURS. WE NEED TO FIND NEW WAYS TO PREPARE PARENTS FOR THIS MOST IMPORTANT RESPONSIBILITY OF THEIR LIVES. THE PROBLEM BECOMES EVEN MORE ACUTE WHEN WE CONSIDER THAT WE HAVE THE PHENOMENON OF CHILDREN HAVING CHILDREN. I WAS RECENTLY AT A MEETING WHICH CONSISTED OF GRANDMOTHERS -- ALL OF WHOM WERE BETWEEN 25 AND 30 YEARS OF AGE. THIS IS A PARTICULARLY IMPORTANT NEED WHICH MUST BE ADDRESSED SOON. 3. PRESCHOOL EDUCATIOI~ -- AGAIN, ALL THE RESEARCH IN THIS AREA SHOWS THAT SYSTEMATIC SCHOOLING SHOULD START EARLIER THAN IT NOW DOES. YET PUBLIC SCHOOLS CONTINUE TO BE INTERESTED IN CHILDREN ONLY IF THEY TURN FIVE BY DECEMBER 1. 4. LATCHKEY CHILDREN -- INCREASINGLY, WITH TWO PARENTS WORKING, CHILDREN LEAVE FROM AND COME HOME TO AN EMPTY HOUSE. SURELY THERE MUST BE A BETTER WAY OF SCHEDULING THE SCHOOL DAY TO ACCOMMODATE CHANGING SOCIETAL NEEDS. 5. THE ROLE OF THE HOME AND FAMILY IN FORMAL EDUCATION -- IN THE PAST, WE HAVE BEEN CONTENT TO SEND OUR CHILDREN OFF TO SCHOOL TO BE EDUCATED AND NOT TO TAKE A VERY ACTIVE ROLE IN THAT PROCESS. BUT, IT IS BECOMING INCREASINGLY CLEAR THAT FOR EDUCATION TO TRULY HAVE IMPACT, WHAT GOES ON IN THE CLASSROOM MUST BE REINFORCED AT HOME AND VICE VERSA. WE CLEARLY NEED TO HAVE MUCH GREATER TEAMWORK IN THIS AREA THAN WE DO AT PRESENT. �PAGE 7 JUST AS THERE HAVE BEEN ENORMOUS CHANGES IN THE FAMILY, THERE HAVE ALSO BEEN TREMENDOUS CHANGES IN THE ECONOMY WHICH HAVE AFFECTED CHILDREN. WHEN I WAS A YOUNGSTER GROWING UP ON A FRUIT FARM IN SOUTHWESTERN MICHIGAN, I WAS GIVEN CHORES TO DO AT AN EARLY AGE -- NOT JUST BUSY WORK OR MAKE WORK. THESE CHORES WERE IMPORTANT TO THE LIVELIHOOD OF MY FAMILY. AT THAT TIME, CHILDREN WERE AN ECONOMIC ASSET FROM A VERY YOUNG AGE. TODAY, IN THE AFFLUENT WORLD IN WHICH WE LIVE, CHILDREN ARE AN ECONOMIC LIABILITY. THEY MAY HAVE CHORES, BUT REALLY DO NOT CONTRIBUTE THAT MUCH TO THE LIVELIHOOD OF THE FAMILY. TODAY'S YOUNG PEOPLE ARE CAUGHT IN A DOUBLE BIND. THE AGE OF PUBERTY CONTINUES TO DROP EVEN AS THE TIME OF PREPARATION NEEDED TO TAKE ONE'S PLACE IN SOCIETY CONTINUES TO LENGTHEN. THE RESULT IS A PROLONGED PERIOD OF DEPENDENCY, AN EXTENDED ADOLESCENCE, IF YOU WILL. DURING THIS TIME, IT IS EASY TO BECOME BORED AND DISILLUSIONED. WE NEED TO BE FAR MORE CREATIVE THAN WE HAVE BEEN IN FINDING USEFUL AND MEANINGFUL WORK FOR THESE YOUNG PEOPLE. WE ALSO SHOULD EXPLOIT TO A MUCH GREATER DEGREE THAN WE HAVE VOLUNTEER ROLES FOR YOUNG PEOPLE THE OPPORTUNITY TO DO TRULY MEANINGFUL AND IMPORTANT WORK, NOT FOR PAY, BUT FOR THE GOOD OF PEOPLE. CHILDREN NEED TO BE PRODUCTIVE . . . THEY NEED TO CONTRIBUTE. THEY DO NOT WISH TO ALWAYS BE THE BENEFICIARY ANYMORE THAN DO RESPONSIBLE ADULTS. �PAGE 8 I HAVE COMMENTED ON SOME OF THE SWEEPING CHANGES IN THE FAMILY AND IN SOCIETY. NOw LET'S TALK ABOUT THE CHANGES -- OR LACK THEREOF -- IN THE SCHOOLS. WE HAVE IN OUR NATION'S SCHOOLS AN ESSENTIALLY AGRARIAN MODEL THAT WAS PARTICULARLY USEFUL IN THE 19TH CENTURY, HAS BECOME INSTITUTIONALIZED IN THE 20TH, AND WILL PROBABLY ENDURE INTO THE 21ST. THE SCHOOL DAY WAS INITIALLY SET FROM 9:00 TO 4:00, WHICH MADE SENSE BECAUSE YOU HAD TO DO YOUR CHORES BEFORE YOU WENT TO SCHOOL, AND YOU HAD TO GET HOME IN TIME TO DO THEM AGAIN IN THE AFTERNOON. THE SCHOOL YEAR WAS SET TO RUN FROM LABOR DAY TO MEMORIAL DAY WHICH, OF COURSE, ALLOWED FOR THE CHILDREN TO BE HOME DURING THE BUSY SUMMER MONTHS. WHILE FEW LIVE ON FARMS TODAY, STILL HAVE PRECISELY THAT CALENDAR. WE THIS CALENDAR AND THIS TIME FRAME ASSUMED THAT THE PARENTS WERE AT HOME AS INDEED MOST OF THEM WERE AND, AS INDEED, THE MAJORITY ARE NOT TODAY. THIS ENTIRE MODEL WAS EVOLVED FOR THE NEEDS OF THE ONE-ROOM SCHOOL HOUSE. IF WE WERE TO DEVELOP THE CALENDARS AND SCHEDULES APPROPRIATE FOR TODAY, WE WOULD DEVELOP A QUITE DIFFERENT PATTERN. WE WOULD SURELY MAKE THE SCHOOL DAY LONGER TO ELIMINATE THE LATCH-KEY PROBLEM AND WORK OUT AN ARRANGEMENT WHEREBY SCHOOL WOULD BE PLANNED DIFFERENTLY THROUGH THE YEAR. THIS IS PARTICULARLY IMPORTANT SINCE STUDIES HAVE SHOWN AGAIN AND AGAIN THAT WHEN CHILDREN BEGIN SCHOOL AFTER A THREE-MONTH VACATION IT TYPICALLY TAKES THEM TWO TO THREE MONTHS TO CATCH UP TO WHERE THEY HAD BEEN. �PAGE 9 THE SCHOOL AS AN INSTITUTION NEEDS TO BECOME MUCH MORE RESPONSIVE IN VERY FUNDAMENTAL WAYS TO THE CHANGES IN THE WIDER SOCIETY. SPECIFICALLY: WE SHOULD CONSIDER A YEAR-ROUND SCHOOL YEAR. WE NEED UNIVERSAL PUBLIC PRESCHOOL EDUCATION BEGINNING AT LEAST AT AGE FOUR AND PREFERABLY AT AGE THREE. WE NEED PROVISION FOR DAY-CARE AND LATCH-KEY CHILDREN. AND WE SHOULD LOOK CAREFULLY AT THE PRIORITIES FOR ALLOCATION OF RESOURCES. AS AN ASIDE, I USED TO SERVE ON A SCHOOL BOARD, AND I ALWAYS ASKED THE ADMINISTRATORS WHY THEY FORCED US TO MAKE THE WRONG CHOICES. WHEN TIMES WERE TOUGH, WE WERE COMPELLED TO CUT RESOURCES FROM THE ELEMENTARY BUDGET TO PUT THEM INTO THE HIGH SCHOOL BUDGET SO THAT THE HIGH SCHOOL COULD RETAIN ITS ACCREDITATION. AND YET RESEARCH SHOWS CONVINCINGLY THAT THE EARLY YEARS ARE CRITICALLY IMPORTANT, MORE SO THAN THE LATER YEARS. WHY NOT ACCREDIT THE ELEMENTARY SCHOOLS -- AND LET HIGH SCHOOL GET THE RESIDUAL? SCHOOLS CANNOT DO EVERYTHING. TO ALL PEOPLE. THEY CANNOT BE ALL THINGS BUT SOCIETY'S NEEDS HAVE CHANGED SO DRASTICALLY THAT THEY MUST BECOME MORE RESPONSIVE. IT IS INSTRUCTIVE TO CONSIDER THE WAY THAT OTHER SOCIAL INSTITUTIONS HAVE CHANGED TO MEET THE DIFFERENT NEEDS OF THE POPULATION. I CAN REMEMBER A TIME WHEN BANKS WERE OPEN FROM 10:00 UNTIL 2:00. NOW, I CAN GO TO MY BANK THROUGH AUTOMATIC TELLER MACHINES AND COMPLETE TRANSACTIONS 24 HOURS A DAY, 365 DAYS A YEAR. NOW SURELY, IF BANKS CAN BECOME THAT RESPONSIVE TO THE NEEDS OF THE PUBLIC, SO CAN THE NATION'S SCHOOLS. �PAGE 10 THE FOURTH AREA OF CHANGE THAT HAS SUCH IMPACT UPON AMERICAN YOUTH, IS THE FRAGMENTATION OF THE INFLUENCE AND SERVICES THAT OUR SYSTEMS AND PROGRAMS HAVE DEVELOPED. THERE IS SIMPLY A MULTIPLICITY OF SOCIAL PROGRAMS AND ADMINISTRATIONS OUT THERE IN THE REAL WORLD, AND MANY OF THEM ARE AT WAR WITH EACH OTHER AND CERTAINLY ARE INCONSISTENT AMONG THEMSELVES. EXAMPLE. LET 'S TAKE A CONCRETE SUPPOSE THAT YOU ARE THE PREGNANT TEENAGE DAUGHTER OF AN ADC MOTHER, YOU ARE HAVING DIFFICULTY IN SCHOOL, AND GET PICKED UP FOR SHOP LIFTING. THINK OF THE NUMBERS OF ORGANIZATIONS WITH WHICH YOU WILL HAVE TO DEAL -- WITH THE SOCIAL WELFARE SYSTEM; WITH THE PUBLIC HEALTH SYSTEM; WITH OUR SYSTEM OF JUSTICE, AS DELIVERED THROUGH THE COURTS; WITH THE SCHOOLS; WITH THE STATE EMPLOYMENT OFFICES. IF YOU HAVE EVER DEALT WITH THE MEDICAID SYSTEM, YOU KNOW HOW DIFFICULT IT IS EVEN FOR WELL-EDUCATED PEOPLE WITH FEW CHALLENGES TO DEAL WITH BUREAUCRACY. IMAGINE THE BEWILDERMENT THIS YOUNG PERSON, LABORING UNDER MULTIPLE DIFFICULTIES, MUST FEEL. AT THE KELLOGG FOUNDATION WE ARE TRYING TO ENCOURAGE SOME EXPERIMENTAL EFFORTS TO FURTHER THE BEST INTERESTS OF ALL OF OUR YOUNGSTERS. WE ARE PERSUADED THAT MORE EFFORT SHOULD BE MADE TO DO THE FOLLOWING: �PAGE 11 1. COMMUNITY-BASED EFFORTS -- THE PROBLEMS OF PEOPLE ARE TOO IMPORTANT TO LEAVE THEM TO THE PROFESSIONALS. CITIZENS MUST BE INVOLVED IN EVERY PHASE -- DISCUSSION, PLANNING, EXECUTION, EVALUATION OF EVERY PROJECT THAT HAS TO DO WITH THEIR OWN WELL BEING. 2. COMPREHENSIVE -- ALL OF THE INFLUENCES DIRECTLY AFFECTING THE CHILD MUST BE CONSIDERED -- HOME, FAMILY; NEIGHBORHOOD; SCHOOL; CHURCH; AGENCIES AND AREAS OF GOVERNMENT; THE COURT; VOLUNTARY SERVICES AND PROGRAMS. 3. COLLABORATIVE -- THE SCHOOLS MUST WORK WITH VOLUNTEERS. YOUTH PROGRAMS MUST WORK WITH THE JUSTICE SYSTEM. THE PROBLEMS WITH WHICH WE GRAPPLE ARE TOO COMPLEX FOR ANY ONE PERSON OR ANY ONE ORGANIZATION TO SOLVE THEM ALONE. TEAMWORK IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL. 4. CONTINUITY -- THE PROBLEMS THAT WE FACE HAVE EVOLVED OVER MANY YEARS. IT IS SIMPLY IMPOSSIBLE THAT A QUICK FIX WILL SOLVE THEM. WE NEED TO COMMIT OURSELVES AND OUR RESOURCES TO STAY AS LONG AS IT TAKES TO FINISH THE JOB. AND THAT MAY WELL BE A GENERATION, OR EVEN MORE. WHAT GOAL SHOULD WE HAVE? SIMPLY THIS: TO MAKE OUR COMMUNITY THE BEST PLACE IN THE "WORLD IN WHICH TO BE BORN AND GROW UP. I AM HERE TODAY TO TALK WITH THE LEADERSHIP OF THE UNIVERSITY OF NEBRASKA SYSTEM TO SEE IF THERE ARE WAYS IN WHICH THE MAGNIFICENT KNOWLEDGE RESOURCES THAT THIS UNIVERSITY HAS CAN BE MOBILIZED MORE EFFECTIVELY TO DEAL WITH THE PROBLEMS FACED BY YOUTH AND BY SOCIETY. THIS, IN MY ESTIMATION, IS THE GREATEST OPPORTUNITY THAT WE AS PROFESSIONALS HAVE: FULLEST POTENTIAL. TO HELP OUR YOUNG PEOPLE REACH THEIR �PAGE 12 THE YEARS AHEAD SHOULD BE EXCITING FOR OUR YOUNG. THEY SHOULD BE CHALLENGING AND FUN, NOT THREATENING AND STRESSFUL. THEY SHOULD BE REWARDING AND ENRICHING, NOT INTIMIDATING AND BORING. OUR YOUNG PEOPLE SHOULD BE EXCITED BY LIFE; MANY OF THEM ALREADY ARE, BUT ALL SHOULD BE. DEMOGRAPHICALLY, WE NEED EVERY ONE OF OUR YOUNG PEOPLE TO BE MOTIVATED, CREATIVE, RESPONSIBLE, AND PRODUCTIVE. THE CHARGE IS TO RESPOND TO THE CHANGING CIRCUMSTANCES OF TODAY, TO ADOPT NEW AND EXCITING PROCEDURES, TO CHANGE OUR POLICIES AND OUR INSTITUTIONS TO A NEW DAY AND A NEW WAY. GIVEN THE LESSONS OF HISTORY, DO WE HAVE GROUNDS FOR OPTIMISM? WE SHOULD BE GRATEFUL TO REALIZE THAT, DESPITE UNPARALLELED TEMPTATIONS AND ALTERNATIVES, THE MAJORITY OF OUR YOUTH DO NOT FAIL, AND MOST OF THOSE WHO HAVE GONE ASTRAY ARE NOT BEYOND REDEEMING. AMERICAN HISTORY IS REPLETE WITH CRISES THAT HAVE BEEN MET BY THE YOUNG, AND WITH FEWER RESOURCES AND LESS KNOWLEDGE THAN WE NOW HAVE AT OUR DISPOSAL. OUR CREDO MIGHT PROPERLY COME FROM RALPH WALDO EMERSON, WHO WROTE HIS POEM, "VOLUNTARIES" DURING THE CIVIL WAR: so so NIGH IS GRANDEUR TO OUR DUST NEAR IS GOD TO MAN, THAT WHEN DUTY WHISPERS LOW, "THOU MUST" THE YOUTH REPLIES "I CAN." WPC0961N � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby Papers Subject The topic of the resource Charities Family foundations--Michigan Philanthropy and society Description An account of the resource The Russell Mawby papers document the life and work of Michigan-born Russell Mawby from 1928 to the present. Mawby was the Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation for twenty-five years and is recognized for his work in the area of philanthropy in the United States, Latin America, and Europe. The digital collection includes a selection of field notes, speeches, itineraries, and other materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell G. W.K. Kellogg Foundation Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby Papers (JCPA-01). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson Center for Philanthropy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-2012 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby papers, JCPA-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01_1988-09-07_RMawby_SPE Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby speech, The Greatest Opportunity Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell Description An account of the resource Speech given September 7, 1988 for the W. K. Kellogg Foundation at the University of Nebraska during the Town and Gown breakfast. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society Family foundations--Michigan W. K. Kellogg Foundation Charities Speeches, addresses, etc. Youth Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1988-09-07 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/97507b46a0ac405a11aaadce680a4e8d.pdf 3b94b4baff8cdf8c1dcbfc4b329688ab PDF Text Text RGM's Remarks (Welcome/Introduction, Panel, and Closing) for September 28, 1989, Michigan Educators,~~Qnfeye ce, "Education in Philanthropy and Volunteerism" ' ./ at Kellogg Center, MSU 111N • STATEWIDE EDUCATORS' CONFERENCE • ~ \. ~-&- .~ THANK YOU JOHN, AND WELCOME TO ALL OF YOU. liT IS APPROPRIATE THAT WE SHOULD BE MEETING TODAY IN THE NATION'S FIRST UNIVERSITY BUILDING CONSTRUCTED SPECIFICALLY FOR THE PURPOSE OF CONTINUING EDUCATION, FOR THAT IS ONE OF THE QUESTIONS WE WILL CONSIDER TODAY AS WE PLACE THE SPOTLIGHT ON PHILANTHROPY, VOLUNTEERISM, AND NONPROFIT INITIATI ~ I WANT TO THANK THE IMPROVING PHILANTHROPY COMMITTEE OF THE COUNCIL OF MICHIGAN FOUNDATIONS FOR THEIR HARD WORK IN PLANNING AND IMPLEMENTING THIS CONFERENCE. THE REPORT THAT YOU HAVE RECEIVED: "PHILANTHROPY AND VOLUNTEERISM: STATE AND NATIONAL TRENDS AND OPPORTUNITIES FOR MICHIGAN" DEFINES THE SCOPE OF THE NONPROFIT SECTOR AND ITS IMPORTANCE IN ALL OUR LIVES. I WON'T COMMENT FURTHER ON THE REPORT, BUT I WOULD LIKE TO REINFORCE ITS STRESS ON THE IMPORTANCE OF THE SECTOR BY SHARING WITH YOU A COUPLE OF STATISTICS UNCOVERED BY PETER DRUCKER, THE NOTED MANAGEMENT CONSULTANT, DURING HIS STUDY OF NONPROFIT ORGANIZATIONS. FIRST, ALL --.-. CITY PUBLIC SCHOOL SYSTEM HAD A BUDGET OF $5.9 BILLION IN 1988. THIS IS LARGER THAN THE BUDGET OF GENERAL MILLS, AND NEARLY TWICE THAT OF APPLE COMPUTER. ;r~ TIME PERMITTED, THERE ARE A NUMBER OF OTHER EXCELLENT EXAMPLE S IN THI S SEC TOR THAT DESERVE MENTION ... NOR IS THERE / ~ TIME TO FU LLY DI SCUSS THE SEC TOR'S IMPACT UPON THE CHARAC TER AND THE ' / . QUALITY jOF LIFE AT THE COMMUNITY LEV~ I TH 2.-~.~!0~ ..l".l.~~ _~~ ~ /; HAT THE SECTOR IS LARGER AND MORE SIGNIFICANT THAN MOST REALIZE. / IT WAS I }. I =':. \ v- ' ' ,..s>-~ ~-<.L, .~ _..1: _ J tf.-t. ~. ~~.~. j_~~ '1- ~ _~t.. ' ,,,;,9. 0 ~~ t..\ \',-",",. b'. . .. ~!\. . ~ ~ '¥" ~'(.... . .AA • : .iI. fi'. ""'<A.A;;'" ...... _.... \~- _.~~ I ... I 0...- ......\, . �, . ~ .\ ~ .~ . ~ c rr~~ 2 / /~ , ' I -~-\ W ITH TH IS CONV ICT ION THAT THE CMF BOARD ,)N1986 , REATED THE IMPROV ING PH ILANTHROPY COMM ITTEE . OUR ~ HAR E / WAS TO EXAM INE THE ~o . CURRENT STATUS OF PH ILANTHROPY IN THE/STATEOF M ICH IGAN ,v IDENT IFY / AREAS IN WH ICH WE COULD DO ETTER ~ AN TO RECOMMEND STEPS FOR IMPROVEMENT . WE QU ICKLY FOCUSED/ONTHE SUB JECT OF EDUCAT ION IN PH ILANTHROPY AND VOLU t \ ITEER ISM .j ; ;ANUMBER OF PEOPLE HAD OP IN IONS ABOUT THE STATUS OF EDUCAT ION IN THESE AREAS IN M ICH IGAN -BUT NO ONE HAD ANY HARD DATA . THEREFORE , THE COMM ITTEE CONDUCTED THREE SURVEYS IN ORDER TO SECURE THE INFORMAT ION THAT WAS LACK ING . - - -_ . -" . THE F IRST SURVEY WAS SENT TO EVERY-T~( j.l UN IVERS ITY IN M ICH IGAN . ~- ~ E r t - C;~ --~-~ fl2.~ ;~'E s R D ISCOVERED THAT THER ~ ' J__ • - .-------_.-' f·. COLLEGE AND ER~ NO FORMAL ~ ~ ~ . DEGREE PROGRAMS IN PH ILANTHROPY AND VOLUNTEERISM IN THE STATE , BUT THAT SEVERAL INST ITUT IONSOFFERED COURSES OR EXPER IENT IAL EDUCAT ION IN THESE AREAS . SEVERAL OF YOU IND ICATED TO US THAT YOU HAVE FACULTY AND STAFF THAT WERE INTERESTED IN THESE TOP ICS , AND IN MANY CASES YOUR STAFF HAVE ORGAN IZED VOLUNTEER ACT IV IT IES OUTS IDE OF THE SCHOOL 'S FORMAL CURR ICULUM . THE SECOND SURVEY WENT TO THE CMF MEMBERSH IP , WH ICH THEN STOOD AT 2 20 (WE NOW HAVE 2S ] ~ MEMBERS ) . ITSRESULTS CONF IRMED OUR BEL IEF THAT THERE WAS W IDESPREAD INTEREST IN PH ILANTHROPY AND VOLUNTEER ISM AMONG M ICH IGAN 'S FOUNDAT IONS AND CORPORATE G IV ING PROGRAMS . A SUBSTANT IAL NUMBER WERE ALREADY MAK ING GRANTS IN THESE AREAS,AND ASO L IDMA JOR ITY IND ICATED INTEREST IN LEARN ING MORE ON THESE SUB JECTS . �~ ~ I'- , ~~ A I ' p . . . / "'- ~ . (""~ . - ,Y / j / v THE TH IRD SURVEY TARGE1ED A SELECTED GROUP OF NONPROF ITS ACROSS THE I STATE . THEY TOLD US THAT EDUCAT ION IN PH ILANTHROPY AND VOLUNTEER ISM WAS A DEF IN ITE NEED/ANDTHEY WERE W ILL ING TO CONTR IBUTE SOME OF THE COSTS FOR THE IR EMPLOYEES . FURTHER , THE IR NEEDS RANGED OVER A W IDE VAR IETY OF TOP ICS , FROM BOARDSMANSH IP TO PERSONNEL TO VOLUNTEER MANAGEMENT TO STRATEG IC PLANN ING . G IVEN THE FACT THAT THE PROV IDERS NEED THE EDUCAT ION , AND THE COLLEGES AND UN IVERS IT IES ARE INDEED CAPABLE OF PROV ID ING IT , OUR MOST EFFECT IVE ROLE AS FUNDERS APPEARS TO BE THAT OF FAC IL ITATORS . IN THAT SP IR IT WE HAVE ORGAN IZED TH IS CONFERENCE . WE HAVE NO PRECONCE IVED AGENDA , ~ \j ~"PLAN ~ OF ACT " ~---. ON .I ' - .A-~ ~ l • - ~ \f-" ' .."" WE HAVE BROUGHT TOGETHER SOME OF THE LEAD ING NAT IONAL EXPERTS ON PH ILANTHROPY , VOLUNTEER ISM , AND NONPROF IT IN IT IAT IVETO LEAD OUR D ISCUSS IONS . WHETHER TH IS LEADS TO ANYTH ING ELSE ISENT IRELY UP TO v ;__ u y.~~ . _ ~ ~l. oc..-~""'~ ~ . .~~_ _ . 4 . OUR KEYNOTE SPEAKER IS AD IST INGU ISHED PROFESS IONAL WHO HAS SPENT H IS \ ,,~ ENT IRE L IFE WORK ING IN , A® F IGHT ING FOR , THE NONPROF IT SECTOR . HE BEGAN H IS CAREER AS ACOMMUN ITY ORGAN IZER FOR ASCHOOL AND REHAB IL ITAT ION CENTER FOR HAND ICAPPED CH ILDREN . FROM 1 954 TO 1966 , HE WORKED FOR THE AMER ICAN HEART ASSOC IAT ION , THEN SPENT THE NEXT 1 2 �4 YEARS AS THE NAT IONAL D IRECTOR OF THE MENTAL HEALTH ASSOC IAT ION . BR IAN THEN SPENT TWO YEARS AS THE CEO OF TWO ORGAN IZAT IONS : THE NAT IONAL COUNC IL ON PH ILANTHROPY AND THE COAL IT ION OF NAT IONAL IN 1 980 HE OVERSAW AMERGER OF THE TWO AS VOLUNTARY ORGAN IZAT IONS . INDEPENDENT SECTOR , AND HAS G IVEN ADECADE OF SERV ICE AS .r~ FOUND ING ~ PRES IDENT . UNDER BR IAN 'S HAS BECOME THE COUNTRY 'S LEAD ING ADVOCATE LEA ER HIP ~ FOR THE NAT IONAL TRAD IT IONS OF G IV ING AND VOLUNTEER ING . ,1 5 ) ISMADE UP OF 650 FOUNDAT IONS , CORPORAT IONS , AND NAT IONAL VOLUNTARY ORGAN IZAT IONS THAT WORK TOGETHER TO GENERATE NEW RESEARCH ON THE SECTOR , ENCOURAGE THE IMPROVEMENT OF NONPROF IT LEADERSH IP AND MANAGEMENT , CREATE MUTUALLY SUPPORT IVE RELAT IONSH IPS BETWEEN GOVERNMENT AND VOLUNTARY ORGAN IZAT IONS , AND EDUCATE PEOPLE ABOUT THE SECTOR . BR IAN ISTHE AUTHOR OF SEVERAL BOOKS , INCLUD INGAMER ICA 'S VOLUNTARY ~ SP IR IT , PH ILANTHROPY IN ACT ION , ~ VOLUNTEERS IN ACT ION . HE ISALSO A VOLUNTEER H IMSELF , SERV ING ON NUMEROUS BOARDS AND COMM ISS IONS . / LAD IES AND GENTLEMEN , IG IVE YOU BR IAN O 'CONNELL . / J JO /RG / ~ \ l~ r ~ V ~ . ~ N.. 1 '0. L2.....~_..-. ~ ~ . :~~ I I _ _ , W"weoo- ,..,..~ r • , . . . . . . ,I r ' _. . . . . ~ ' " f 1 ~ \ . . . I , , 4 . f " ' ..f1.,A . S t \ . ~l ~ . • ~~~' ~ - I ~cn- - . ' . _ ~ r . . -"_ . . ~- , . . . . . . . . . . . . . - �.: .~-'S/ I I ~ /"6' ~- ~; ~ c ' ~ / / J , I ' ., I / / J l ~ I Q f I f ( r ~ . , �SUB JECT : BR IEF INTRODUCT IONS FOR SEPTEMBER 28 PANEL ISTS DELWYN DYER ISPROFESSOR AND D IRECTOR , CENTER FOR VOLUNTEER DEVELOPMENT , EXTENS ION D IV IS ION , V IRG IN IA POLYTECHN IC INST ITUTEAND STATE UN IVERS ITY , IN BLACKSBURG , V IRG IN IA . tA- ~e- ~ EL ~EARNE A PH .D . IN SOC IOLOGY AND ANTHROPOLOGY FROM M ICH IGAN STATE UN IVERS ITY , AND WAS FORMERLY A PROGRAM LEADER , 4 -H PROGRAMS , HERE AT MSU ..DEL ISALSO THE PAST PRES IDENT OF THE ASSOC IAT ION OF VOLUNTARY ACT ION SCHOLARS . V IRG IN IA HODGK INSON ISV ICE PRES IDENT , RESEARCH , INDEPENDENT SECTOR , ~ . AND EXECUT IVE D IRECTOR OF THE NAT IONAL CENTER FOR CHAR ITABLE ~ STAT IST ICS . SHE EARNED APH .D . IN H IGHER EDUCAT ION FROM SOUTHERN ILL INO ISUN IVERS ITY . SHE HAS AUTHORED MORE THAN 2 0BOOKS AND ART ICLES ON PH ILANTHROPY , VOLUNTEER ISM , AND THE NONPROF IT SECTOR , INCLUD ING G IV ING AND VOLUNTEER ING IN THE UN ITED STATES : A NAT IONAL SURVEY AND D IMENS IONS OF THE INDEPENDENTSECTOR : ASTAT IST ICAL ~ V- ~ PROF ILE . HER LEADERSH IP IN THE STUDY OF NONPROF ITS HAS CAUSED MER ~ ~ ~ E 4. .-J AS THE "NONPROF IT P IED P IPER . " KATHLEEN MCCARTHY ISPROFESSOR AND D IRECTOR OF THE CENTER FOR THE STUDY OF PH ILANTHROPY AT THE C ITY UN IVERS ITY OF NEW YORK . SHE EARNED APH .D . IN H ISTORY FROM THE UN IVERS ITY OF CH ICAGO . SHE IS THE AUTHOR OF NUMEROUS BOOKS AND ART ICLES ON THE SUB JECT OF NAT IONAL AND INTERNAT IONAL PH ILANTHROPY . A FORMER EMPLOYEE OF THE ROCKEFELLER FOUNDAT ION , SHE ISTHE FOUNDER OF THE INTERNAT IONAL FELLOWS PROGRAM , WH ICH BR INGS YOUNG LEADERS FROM FORE IGN NAT IONS TO AMER ICA TO LEARN ABOUT AMER ICAN PH ILANTHROPY . ~ ~\; ~ . . . . . ~~~ t~~-.. ~~ ~ ~ .e ...Q.... ' I-~ ~ ~ Yt-<.. . . . : , . . ( ( . ...,J};. . . .PLu . ..~....-~. ~ t ~ ~ e . . . f 4 ¥+ £ ~~--- ..Qt"'~ t t -~cr- " " ~~ Q -J ). . . . . . . . . .~--...... ~.~~ ~ 2~ . ~_ . . ~ ~ ..o... .. l $ ' . �~~.~. E2.~-. .. ~ 4 ~;~ - - A -~" ~ . . .- ~~ ~ DUANE BEAUCHAMP ISTHE D IRECTOR OF H ILLSDALE COLLEGE 'S GREAT OPPORTUN IT IES FOR ASS ISTANCE AND LEADERSH IP (GOAL ) PRO JECT . TH IS IS A STUDENT VOLUNTEER ISM AND LEADERSH IP PROGRAM FUNDED BY THE W . K . KELLOGG FOUNDAT ION . ~N E AMASTERS IN D IV IN ITY FROM NASHOTAH HOUSE SEM INARY IN W ISCONS IN . ~ BEAUC I IA t i lP ~ SERVED THE EP ISCOPAL CHURCH OF THE U .S .A . IN ADM IN ISTRAT IVE CAPAC IT IES . HE THEN SERVED AS THE RES IDENT CONSULTANT FOR THE COMMUN ITY SERV ICE BUREAU OF DALLAS , TEXAS , SPEC IAL IZ ING IN FUND -RA IS ING FOR PROGRAMS FOR THE DEVELOPMENTALLY D ISABLED . ~ILL s ~ J JO /RG I I IN r~ '~ ~ ~-AH Et AM ,t9 38 . r5Sl:JMEB -I+ I -5 t tR "R'E N T C . ' . . e :a . . . " . . �2 GEORGE ROCHE HAS BEEN PRES IDENT OF H ILLSDALE COLLEGE S INCE 1 9 7 1 . MA~ APRINCIPLE OF REFUSING TO ORM~HU MAINTAINING COMPLETE / UNDER H IS LEADERSH IP ,H ILLSDALE HAS ACCEPT GOVERNMENf"MONEY IN ANY , INDEPENDENCE FROM GOVERNMENTA) /CONTROL . DR . ROCHE EARNED A PH .D . IN H ISTORY FROM THE UNIVER I ~ COLORADO . HE ISTHE AUTHOR OF TEN BOOKS , RANG ING FROM EDUeAT ION" INAMER ICA TO A NOVEL , COM ING HOME_. / HE IS ALSO THE FOUNDER OF TWO FORUMS FOR D IALOGUE ON THE SUB JECTS OF IND IV IDUAL LI / ER ~ , / L IM ITED GOVERNMENT , AND FREE ENTERPR ISE , THE CENTER FOR CONSTRUCT IVE ALTERNAT IVES , AND THE SHAVANO INST ITUTE FOR NAT IONAL LEADERSH IP . ~ IRECTOR OF THE COMMUN ITY SERV HENRY RUB IN ISTHE D ICE MANAGEMENT CERT IF ICATE PROGRAM AT ROOSEVELT UN IVERS ITY . HE EARNED A PH .D . IN ~ EDUCATIONAL ADMINISTRATION FROM NORTHWESTERN UNIVERSITY. DR . RUB IN ISTHE AUTHOR OF NUMEROUS BOOKS AND ART ICLES ON NONPROF IT ADM IN ISTRAT ION AND ETH ICS . HE CO -CHA IRS THE CLAR ION CONFERENCE FOR THE D ISC IPL INE OF NONPROF IT ADM IN ISTRAT ION . J JO /RG �:J- ~-l o~ o .~ _ i I t ...Q-~ _ .L ~ »' . - . _~ ,< : . �tv .J (;) .c: QUESTIONS FOR PANEL The first question is the "so what" question. Why is it important to study volunteerism and philanthropy? How do such studies fit into the traditional mission of the university -- teaching, research and public service? Does it make sense to teach philanthropy and volunteerism as a discrete course, or should its concepts be broadly integrated across the curriculum? How can we interest the faculty in these subjects, and get them involved in teaching these areas? Is it possible to gain the faculty's commitment without changing the university's reward system? What are the best examples of programs for the study of philanthropy and volunteerism? Should we attempt to build a standardized curriculum, or should we "let a thousand flowers bloom?" Is there a logical departmental home for the study of philanthropy and volunteerism? 9. .- Should training in philanthropy and volunteerism be vocational? To what extent should education in philanthropy and volunteerism employ experiential techniques? Is "required volunteerism" a contradiction in terms? What is the biggest impediment in the way of developing programs? What are the l;adin g professional organizati9ns in this field? Where are the gaps in the knowledge base? What are the opportunities for publication in these fields? Have you encountered any internal institutional resistance? (~ \V G Is there real demand for such a program among the students? If so, is it strongest among undergraduates, graduate§1/ students, or continuing education students? What are the future opportunities in these fields? JJO!rgl086N:45 �CLOS ING REMARKS STATEW IDE EDUCATORS ' CONFERENCE THE "EDUCAT ION IN PH ILANTHROPY AND VOLUNTEER ISM " CONFERENCE ISNOW DRAW ING TO A CLOSE , AND ITH INK ITHAS BEEN A VERY PRODUCT IVE DAY . WE OWE AGREAT DEBT OF THANKS TO BR IAN O 'CONNELL , WHO PROV IDED ACLEAR OVERV IEW OF THE IMPORTANCE AND THE STATE OF THE SECTOR , AND ABLY LAUNCHED US IN THE R IGHT D IRECT ION . OUR F IVE PANEL ISTS , DELWYN DYER , V IRG IN IA HODGK INSON , KATHLEEN MCCARTHY , ' "1 )" ' -. - E-eR~HE, AND HENRY RUB IN , GENEROUSLY SHARED THE IR STORE OF EXPER IENCE REGARD ING THEORY AND PRACT ICE IN THE F IELD . MOREOVER , THE IR PART IC IPAT ION IN THE D ISCUSS IONS TH IS AFTERNOON LED TO MANY PRODUCT IVE INTERCHANGES AND A H IGH LEVEL OF D IALOGUE . AND THANKS TO YOU FOR TAK ING THE T IME TO ATTEND , AND PUTT ING SO MUCH THOUGHT INTO YOUR QUEST IONS AND PART IC IPAT ION . NOW , THE NATURAL QUEST ION IS"WHAT ABOUT NEXT STEPS ? " AS ISA ID AT THE BEG INN ING OF THE CONFERENCE , THE MEMBERSH IP OF THE COUNC IL OF M ICH IGAN FOUNDAT IONS HAS NO PRECONCE IVED AGENDA OR A PLAN OF ACT ION . WE DO NOT INTEND T OI S S UEA REQUEST FOR PROPOSALS . TH IS DOES NOT MEAN _ . . _ ...~ . . _.~_. ---------,-- . THAT WE..-HAVE SU_ D E N Y_ _ LOSL INTEREST IN PH ILANTHROPY AND VOLUNTEER ISM. .D ,_ . . . .L ITDOES MEAN , HOWEVER , THAT THE BALL ISIN YOUR COURT . IFYOU TH INK THAT TH IS SUB JECT ISIMPORTANT , THAT ITMER ITS FURTHER REFLECT ION AND POSS IBLY ACT ION , THEN WE ARE W ILL ING TO L ISTEN TO YOUR IDEAS .~ UPO ~ -l R R.EELE- -"" -I-e YOU PLACE PH L THRO. f A lN D VOLUNTEERI~~ ON O f~-r-T ~ -IHEN WE CERTAINL ..R ~~ON. �2 AS FUNDERS, WE SEE OUR ROLE BEING THAT OF A FACILITATOR. IF YOU HAVE GOOD IDEAS ABOUT BETTER WAYS TO PROVIDE EDUCATION IN PHILANTHROPY AND VOLUNTEERISM, THEN WE WANT TO HEAR THEM. NATURALLY, YOU UNDERSTAND THAT FUNDERS CANNOT GIVE A nBLANK CHECK,n BUT WE CAN GUARANTEE A FAIR HEARING. AND, IF OUR PRIORITIES MATCH, WE CAN HELP YOU TO ACHIEVE YOUR GOALS FASTER -- AND PERHAPS BETTER IN ANY EVENT, NEXT STEPS ARE UP TO YOU. THAN YOU COULD ON YOUR OWN. THANK YOU AGAIN FOR MAKING THE TIME TO JOIN US, AND ADD TO OUR DELIBERATIONS. JOURNEY HOME. JJO/RG HAVE A SAFE � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby Papers Subject The topic of the resource Charities Family foundations--Michigan Philanthropy and society Description An account of the resource The Russell Mawby papers document the life and work of Michigan-born Russell Mawby from 1928 to the present. Mawby was the Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation for twenty-five years and is recognized for his work in the area of philanthropy in the United States, Latin America, and Europe. The digital collection includes a selection of field notes, speeches, itineraries, and other materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell G. W.K. Kellogg Foundation Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby Papers (JCPA-01). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson Center for Philanthropy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-2012 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby papers, JCPA-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01_1989-09-28_RMawby_SPE Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby speech, Education in Philanthropy and Volunteerism Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell Description An account of the resource Speech given September 28, 1989 for the W. K. Kellogg Foundation at the Statewide Educator's Conference to discuss the importance of education in philanthropy and volunteerism. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society Family foundations--Michigan W. K. Kellogg Foundation Charities Speeches, addresses, etc. Education Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1989-09-28 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e423391a157305b62e00d26a974782bb.pdf 96b919da83ebd0aff2193d90f6b42fc9 PDF Text Text ac -1- Dedication Ceremony Wildlife Education Center Binder Park Zoo September 28, 1982 Russell G. Mawby, Chairman of the Board W. K. Kellogg Foundation I am delighted to be here as the Binder Park Zoo takes another major step in its development for our community. The Zoo has had a remarkable record of success in the past four years -- often ~n the face of adverse economic, general and weather conditions. operati~g, The Zoo is an impressive example of community self-initiative and achievement; whereby a group of citizens recognized a community need and then organized to plan, fund, and carry out zoo activities, and without reliance on tax or governmental money. Today volunteers from throughout the area serve as members of the Zoo's Board of Directors; are helping to physically build and maintain the Zoo; a n d are serving as docents -- or volunte~~ �a c2 - t e a c h e r s-t om ak e p o s s i b l ea g r e a t l ye x p a n d e d Zoo e d u c a t i o n a l o u t r e a c hp r o g r am . A s w e d e d i c a t et h i s ,t h eZ o o ' sf i r s tp e rm a n e n tb u i l d i n g ,i t i s im p o r t a n tt on o t et h a tn e a r l y3 0 0a r e af am i l i e sa r ea c t i v e c o n t r i b u t o r st o ,and p a r t i c i p a n t si n ,Zoo a c t i v i t i e st h r o u g h t h e i ra n n u a lm em b e r s h i p s ; t os a yn o t h i n go ft h et h o u s a n d so f o t h e ra r e ac i t i z e n swho r e g u l a r l yv i s i tt h eZoo . I th a sb e e n t h e s ei n d i v i d u a l s ,a l o n gw i t hc o n t r i b u t i o n sf romp r i v a t ef o u n d a t i o n s i no u rc omm u n i t y and s u c hc i v i cl e a d e r sa sB e u l a hK e n d a l l , Bob M i l l e r , a n dt h eK e l t hS c h r o d e rf am i l ywho h a v em ad e t h i sd a y p o s s i b l e . On e o ft h ep r im a r ys t r e n g t h so ft h eZoo ~ and r e a s o n sf o ri t s b r o a d b a s e d commun i ty s u p p o r t-h a sb e e ni t sem p h a s i so n e d u c a t i o n a lp r o g r am sf o rc h i l d r e n . W . K . K e l l o g g , t h ef o u n d e r o ft h eK e l l o g gF o u n d a t i o n ,w a s f o n do fs a y i n gt h a t" e d u c a t i o n o f f e r st h eg r e a t e s to p p o r t u n i t yf o rr e a l l yim p r o v i n go n e �ac -3- generation over another." Many of the Foundation's grantmaking efforts over the years have reflected that commitment and belief regarding the importance of education in our society. That has been the Foundation's goal in providing financial support for the Zoo. That has also been the Foundation's goal ln regard to a grant which I am pleased to announce this evening namely, a new $60,000 grant by the Kellogg Foundation to help the Binder Park Zoo construct a separate animal care facility immediately to the west of this education center. These Foundation funds will augment the already considerable financial support pledged by the General Foods Corporation for completion of the animal care center. The Center will feature special space and equipment needed to develop and serve major exotic animal exhibits -- which are key to the next phase of the Zoo's development. Yet, ln a more direct way, the Wildlife Education Center we dedicate this evening has been described as the true "heart" of all Zoo operations because it houses cl assrooms and meeting �ac -4- space, offices, kitchen, and animal care area. I take that to mean the heart of the Zoo in an educational sense. For the Center makes possible a further broadening of Zoo educational programs for area youth and citizens. The challenge for the Binder Park Zoo will be to use this Wildlife Education Center to enhance both outreach and in-zoo programs. More than 19,200 people were served by Zoo outreach activities last year, as well as by the Zoomobile field days and "Living Textbook" programs at schools throughout the community. More than 15,000 additional youngsters participated in the educational programs and festivals offered right here at the Zoo. I believe the key to Binder Park Zoo's promising future will be its continued emphasis on quality educational programs, and equally important, voluntary support and citizen involvement within its 25-mile, 800,000 population service area . �ac -5- The Kellogg Foundation has been pleased to be a partner in helping to launch the Binder Park Zoo. We are proud of the Zoo's growing reputation nationally for outstanding educational programs. We are equally proud, and confident, that the Zoo will build upon that record of service and achievement in the years ahead. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby Papers Subject The topic of the resource Charities Family foundations--Michigan Philanthropy and society Description An account of the resource The Russell Mawby papers document the life and work of Michigan-born Russell Mawby from 1928 to the present. Mawby was the Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation for twenty-five years and is recognized for his work in the area of philanthropy in the United States, Latin America, and Europe. The digital collection includes a selection of field notes, speeches, itineraries, and other materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell G. W.K. Kellogg Foundation Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby Papers (JCPA-01). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson Center for Philanthropy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-2012 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby papers, JCPA-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01_1982-09-28_RMawby_SPE Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby speech at the Wildlife Education Center Dedication Ceremony Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell Description An account of the resource Speech given September 28, 1982 for the W. K. Kellogg Foundation at the dedication ceremony for the Wildlife Education Center. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society Family foundations--Michigan W. K. Kellogg Foundation Charities Speeches, addresses, etc. Education Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1982-09-28 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a462023aab33772a74a46b4e99beedd5.pdf d3d264fa4e11b624c1ddaeb5d8034505 PDF Text Text THE MI CHI GAN BI OTECHNOLOGY INSTI TUTE Remarks by Dr. Russell G. Mawby Cha i r man and Chief Executive Officer W. K. Kell ogg Foundation September 27, 1984/Lansing, MI Governor Blanchard, Mr. We i 1, Dr. Zeikus, memb e r s of the MBI Board of Direc t ors, media repres entatives, ladies and ge ntlemen Michigan, in recent years, has been sgre '¥- c ha 11e nge d by a series of difficult economic circumstances. Now we are emerging from those troubled time s and we see all around us the evidence of the human spirit's invincibility. People are addr essing the needs of our communities and our state with determination, skill" and ne~~~:C~ e sacrifice. The enthusiasm and commitment of people from Sault Ste. Marie to Battle Creek, from Muske gon to Port Huron, fr om Copper Harbor to Detroit to restore MichIgan as one of the nation's flagship states is, i n my e s t ima t i o n.-m &£-e ~an r emarkab l e ; is it awe - insp iring. ~ I f. yo e ~o can't keep a good state down! pa raphrase an old adage: You just John Gardner's words appropriately describ eA' such s p i r it when he w't"o t e : "We are not at our best perched at the summit; we are c l i mbers, at our best when the way is steep." ~~~~~ ~~~ r~~~~ ~a&~ ~~la t --. v a l uab l e lesson learned ~ is one that gives suffic i ent wisdom to avoid other pitfalls. Part of the new Michigan we a r e seeing is a mor e economically diversi fied �p r o f i l e . on e wh i ch c a p i t a l i z e son t h ev e r yb e s to fi t sn a t i v e r e s o u r c e s . And t h a ti st h efund am en t a lpoi n to f my r em a rk st h i s m o rn ing . i me l yexamp l ew i t h i nt h i sd i v e r s i f i e dp r o f i l ei st h e At ~~ b i o t e c h n o l o g yi n d u s t r y . I nt h i s A e n te r p r i s eM ich ig an i sr i c hi n r e s o u r c e se s s e n t i a lt os u c c e s s f u ld ev e lopm en t . Th e s er e s o u r c e s i n c l u d e : ~ a ~ v i b r a n t an dd i v ers ef a rm a g r i b u s i n e s ss e c t o r , e x c e l l e n ti n d u s t r i a lp r o d u c t i o nc a p a c i t y , _a g e n e r o u sw a t e rs u p p l y . - m o re t h a n1 7 . 5m i l l i o na c r e so f comm e r c i a lf o r e s t l a n d . - _an abund an t sk edwo rk f o r c e . and -aw e l ld e v e l o p e dt r a n s p o r t a t i o ns y s t em . O fe q u a l im p o r t a n c e .w eh av e an im p r e s s i v enumb e ro fs u p e r b c o l l e g e sand u n i v e r s i t i e s . in l in . ~i i an S t a t eU n i v e r s i t y and t h eU n i v e r s i t yo fM i ch ig an -twowo r ldc l a s si n s t i t u t i o n s .both w i t ho u t st a n d i n gr e s e a r c ht a l e n t . Ou r c o l l e g e sand u n i v e r s i t i e sc an i n deed h e l pt oe n s u r er e a lp r o g r e s si ns om any im p o r t a n tf i e l d so f dev e l o p m en t . A l lo ft h i si sM i c h i g a n ' s . a sw e l la sc r u c i a la c c e s s t ob i o t e c h n o l o g ym a r k e t s and v e n t u r ec a p i t a l . Th eM i ch ig an B i o t e c h n o l o g yI n s t i t u t e t h eM B I. l o c a t e di n E a s tL an s ing --w i l ll i n ku n i v e r si t yr e s e a r c hw i t ha p p l i c a t i o n so f b i o t e c h n o l o g yt oexp and ou rf o r e s tand a g r i c u l t u r a li n d u s t r i e s . c r e a t ej o b s .and f u r t h e rimp rov et h es t a t e ' se conom i cs i t u a t i o n . Tho s ep r o g r e s s i v es t e p sw i l l imp rov el i f ef o rM i c h i g a n ' s p e o p l e . 2 �Th e M B Ir e p r e s e n t sa p o o l i n go fr e s o u r c e s i n s t i t u t i o n a l n a t u r a l , hum an , and i tr e p r e s e n t so p p o r t uni t y . Fo rt h e s er e a s o n s , t ~~~~~ ~-~ ~ &eee -~ t h eW . K . K e llogg Found at i o nh a ss u p p o r t e dt h eI n s t i t u t eand i t sp o t e n t i a lf o rh e l p i n g t or e v i t a l i z eou rs t a t e . I n i t i a le~ ea gf l @ I ts s u p p o r tc am ei n Augu s t 1982 ,i nt h e fo rm & fa $150 ,000 g r a n tt ol a u n c hcomp r eh en s iv e p l a n n i n g and t oem p l o ys t a f fn e c e s s a r yt od e v e l o pt h eI n s t i t u t e ' s s p e c i a lr a n g eo ft e c h n o l o g i e s-t e c h n o l o g i e swh i ch c an l e a dt o p r a c t i c a land p r o f i t a b l ea p p l i c a t i o n si nt h efoodp r o c e s s i n g i n d u s t r y ,p h a rm a c e u t i c a l s , andb a s i ca g r i c u l t u r a lp r o d u c t i o n . I ti sa p p r o p r i a t et h a tt h eK e l logg F o u n d a t i o n cho s et ob e i n v o l v e di nt h i se x c i t i n gv e n t u r e . Th en am eK e l logg i sp r o u d l y l i n k e dw i t hM i ch ig an . C r e a t e di n1930 by t h em an who s en am ei s synonomou sw i t ht h er e a d y t o e a tc e re a li n d u s t r y ,t h eW . K . K e l logg F o u n d a t i o ni sM i ch ig anb o r nandM i ch ig anb a s e d . ~ Th es o l i d ,s t e ady g row thwh i ch h a s mov ed t h eF o u n d a t i o nf rom i t so r i g i n a l $45 m i l l i o n endowm en tt oi t sc u r r e n ta s s e t so f mo r e t h a n$1 b i l l i o ni st h er e s u l to ft h ee n t r e p re n e u r i a ls u c c e s so f p r i v a t eb u s i n e s s e s ,m a ny o f th emh e a d q u a r t e r e di nM i ch ig an . I nt h eF o u n d a t i o n ' s 54y e a rh i s t o r y ,i t h a sm ad e g r a n t s e x c e e d i n g $768 m i l l i o n t oh e l ps o l v es o c i e t a lp rob l em si nt h ea r e a s o fh e a l t h ,a g r i c u l t u r e , and e d u c a t i o n ;f u l l y$125 m i l l i o no ft h a t amoun th a ss u p p o r t e dp r o g ram s and p r o j e c t si nM i ch ig an . I nr e v i ew i n gt h o s ef i g u r e sI amr em ind edo fwh a tW . K . l l o g gw r o t e i nh i sj o u r n a li n1909 : " I fI ams u c c e s s f u li n Ke 3 �g e tt i n go u to fd e b t and b e com ep r o s p e r o u si nmy b u s i n e s sa f f a i r s ,I e x p e c tt om ak e good u s eo f anyw e a l t ht h a tm aycom e t om e . " Som e sl a t e rh e added : " I th a s beenmu ch e a s i e rt om ak e mon ey t h a n year t oknowhow t osp end i t w ise ly ." H i s t o r y vou ch e st h a tM r . K e l logg w a s s u c c e s s f u lb o t ha t making mon eyand a tm ak ing w i s eu s eo fi t . Th es t ew a r d so fh i s F o u n d a t i o n ' sa s s e t sh av eh ad , and c o n ti n u et oh a v e , ac o n s t a n tand \ ~ r ew a r d i n gc h a l l e n g et odo l i k ew i s e . - ---- Ov e r thep a st y e a r ,M B I h a sm ad e e x c e l l e n tp r o g r e s si n s t r u c t u r i n gan o r g a n i z at i o nand d e v e l o p i n g a fo cu sf o rr e s e a r c h , tr a i n i n g ,and e d u c a t i ona lp r o g ram s . I th a sc l a r i f i e dr e l a t i o n s h i p s b e tw e en i t s e l fand edu c at i o n a li n s t i t u t i o n son on eh and , and i n d u s t r yand u s e r s on t h eo t h e r. F u r t h e r ,i t e s t a b l i s h e dan ope ra t i o na lp o l i c yb ased on a l l o c a t i n g60 p e r c e n to fi t sr e s o u r c e s t or e s e a r c hand d e v e lopm en t , and 40 .pe rcen tt os t r e n g t h e n i n gt h e t r a i n i n gand e d u c a t i o n a lp r ogr am sw i t h i nu n i v e r s i t i e s . T h i si sa s o l i dc om b i n a t i o no fe f f o r t st h a tc ana c c r u el a s t i n gb e n e f i t sf o r o u rs t a t e . M B I's y e a r l o n gp r o g r e s si sh i g h l ya s s u r i n g . A sa r e s u l t , t h eK e l logg Founda tion 's Bo a rd r e a f f i rm si t scomm i tm en tt o d a yt ot h e v a l u e and p u r p o s eo ft h eB i o t e c h n o l o g yI n s t i t u t et h r o u g ha f o u r y e ar ,$10 m illion g r a n tt oMB l t oc a r r yfo rw a rdi t so b j e c t i v e s . ~~ l e e o fa d d i t i o n a lK e l logg Found a ti o nfund sf o rf u r t he r s t a g e so fM B l's p rog r am sw i l lb ed e c i d e da f t e rt h ec u r r e n two rk i s eva lua ted ,b u tw ea r eh i g h l yo p tim i s t i c . 4 �We believe that the fiscal support that the Foundation is giving to the Michigan Biotechnology Institute is evidence of wise stewardship of our financial resources. We trust that it will help. in its own way. Mi c h i ga n ' s leaders to be wise stewards of the abundant natural. human. and instit itional resources with which this state has been so generous lyeI+C:1 82li; c d ~ 5 t-eJ.:Je-d.....- � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby Papers Subject The topic of the resource Charities Family foundations--Michigan Philanthropy and society Description An account of the resource The Russell Mawby papers document the life and work of Michigan-born Russell Mawby from 1928 to the present. Mawby was the Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation for twenty-five years and is recognized for his work in the area of philanthropy in the United States, Latin America, and Europe. The digital collection includes a selection of field notes, speeches, itineraries, and other materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell G. W.K. Kellogg Foundation Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby Papers (JCPA-01). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson Center for Philanthropy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-2012 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby papers, JCPA-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01_1984-09-27_RMawby_SPE Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby speech, The Michigan Biotechnology Institute Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell Description An account of the resource Speech given September 27, 1984 for the W. K. Kellogg Foundation on the Michigan Biotechnology Institute. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society Family foundations--Michigan W. K. Kellogg Foundation Charities Speeches, addresses, etc. Education Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1984-09-27 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d5b2b91d9c6780841c319b02e043dc75.pdf 74aede330e540e063f634e75c6bbba04 PDF Text Text Concluding Remarks by Russell G. Mawby, Chairman and CEO W. K. Kellogg Foundation Family Community Leadership Workshop September 26, 1986 Denver, Colorado I am glad to be with you for this concluding session of the Family Community Leadership Conference. My only regret is that I have not been here for the full time so that I could meet more of you, but I appreciate so much your warm welcome and the chance to visit with many of you in this short period of time. I feel right at home with this kind of group because, as indicated, I have a rural background. deal in my life. Extension and 4-H have meant a great I was a 4-H club member and my mother was very active in the Michigan Extension Homemakers. I really credit the Extension home demonstration agent, the county agricultural agent and the district 4-H agent, along with my mother and dad, for encouraging me to become the first of my family to go to college. My wife, Ruth, was a county home demonstration agent, and I was an Extension agent, specialist, administrator, and volunteer. So Extension has been very much a part of our lives for a long period of time. My career and my personal interests have been very much involved with a lot of the issues and activities that are of concern to you. It has been over 20 years since I left Michigan State University to join the W. K. Kellogg Foundation. As one of my colleagues said at that time, I "traded in my academic robe for a foundation garment." My heart, however, is still very close to your concerns, and fortunately a lot of the philosophy and activities of this Foundation are similar to those that you and I share. I have often �2 confessed to some of my friends in home economics that if I were to be reincarnated in an Extension career, I would wish, at this point in the life of society, to become a State Leader for Home Economics Extension. I say that simply because it seems to me that if we look at perplexing concerns of American society, the emphases and purposes to which you are committed have greater potential for addressing some of those needs constructively than any of the other programs with which I am familiar. I want to congratulate everyone who has been a part of bringing us together on this occasion. some years ago. I first heard about the concept which led to FCL It was in 1978 or 1979 that I had the pleasure of meeting with Charline Warren and other officers of the National Extension Homemakers Council at the National 4-H Center in Washington, D.C. The FCL idea was just beginning to take form and it materialized dramatically through the years of initial impetus from the Extension Homemakers, and shepherded along by others like Eleanor Whittemore who have been important in the process. It is a partnership effort. Many different folks have been involved, and the Extension and volunteer partnership and collaboration are extremely important. Orville Young was one of the early Extension leaders on the regional and the national level to give it real endorsement, encouragement, and support. That collaborative partnership is symbolized by these name badges that simply tell you that I am Russ from Michigan. because all of us serve a common purpose. That is great We have the same objectives in mind, and each of us makes a particular contribution; so whether the label is volunteer or professional doesn't make any difference as long as we recognize that we do share a mission. To the six states that have been the pioneers, the forerunners and the experimenters, we express our special gratitude and admiration. We are �3 grateful to all of the people involved in so many ways in bringing about the FCL success. I salute all of you who have been a part of this process. A special tribute goes to the planning committee. seen them, and tolerated them this week. You have met them, In my brief military career at Camp Chaffe in Arkansas, I whitewashed rocks and served in an artillery unit. In artillery terms, your co-chairs would be a "BB" team--Bassett and Barron. practice, however, they have had the impact of a howitzer. In To Lois and Jim, who co-chaired this activity, and the full committee, we are grateful for a tremendous conference. Speaking for the W. K. Kellogg Foundation, we have been privileged indeed to be helpful to you by providing a bit of assistance in this experiment -- the development, testing, and evaluation which leads us to this national dissemination conference. The support by the Foundation for the Family Community Leadership program is just a part of a long-term commitment to people, families, communities, and leadership. Sometimes there is confusion about the relationship between the Kellogg Company and the W. K. Kellogg Foundation. The tie is simply one man -- W. K. Kellogg. Mr. Kellogg, back in 1906, quit his job at age 46 as the administrator of a hospital and started the Kellogg Company. He very early determined that whatever fortune he accumulated he would somehow dedicate to human benefit. In 1930, at the age of 70, he established this Foundation, and there is the tie; only people are important and that one man made that difference. We started out as a very small Foundation working in just seven counties in southcentral Michigan. health, libraries, and families. international in stature. largest in the country. We worked on problems of education, public Now, of course, we have grown to be The Foundation is now among the two or three In our fiscal year just ended on August 31, we had �4 assets of $3.1 billion, revenues of $81 million, and we are projecting for the current year an increase of 18 percent to $96 million dollars in support of about 600 different projects around the world. As an old farm boy, those figures alwa ys overwhelm me. Historically, the Foundation has always been concerned with leadership of all sorts to enable people in various settings and circumstances to contribute constructively to societal progress. So we have worked for years, and still do, with school boards, hospital boards, the United Way, the Urban League, and fellowship programs of various kinds. One example you may be familiar with is the Farmer's Study Program or the Agricultural Leadership Program that started on a small basis in one, then two, then five states and now serves in at least 23 different states around the country. Our concern is with encouraging people to take a greater role in shaping today and tomorrow. It is very natural, then, that the Foundation was excited by the concept of Family Community Leadership. of these words is tremendous. You recognize it -- just remind yourself of their importance occ asionally as you move forward. social unit in our society. The importance of each Family -- it is the basic We are beginning to appreciate to a greater extent some of the values embodied in strong families; values like discipline and hard work and ambition and self-sacrifice and patience and caring and love. We are beginning to realize with all of the changes in traditional family structures that those values are still tremendously important; as human individuals we need close and caring and loving relationships. While the details of f amily structure may change (and they have been changing for centuries), the basic notion is still valid. We have found in our programs that many people like to be students of the family, we find many who would like to be critics of the family, but we find too few who are advocates of the family. I am delighted that you are advocates for families. �5 Second is community. That's where we live. There has been a tendency for the past half-century to transfer responsibilities for important concerns from the individual and the family to someone else. In similar fashion, we have transferred responsibility from the local community to ever-higher levels of government. I think we are now appreciating the fact that a lot of those efforts have been less successful than we would hope, and to some extent we are beginning to see a transition back to local responsibility. It will be tough because we have become dependent upon grants from federal sources for all sorts of things in our schools, in urban development and other areas. Nonetheless, we are beginning to recognize that some of the wisest decisions are made closest to the problem. Communities, whether you define them as your local neighborhood or a local unit of government, up to the State, are going to become increasingly important in shaping the future. This means that the individual citizen will have increasing opportunities to make a difference at the community level on significant concerns. Family plus community plus leadership. There are lots of definitions of a leader, but I always think of a leader as someone who recognizes a need and then does something about it. a doer. It is much easier to be a critic than to be It is much easier to sit back and say, "Why doesn't the school board do this thing or the other?" "Why don't they do something about the quality of the water in our local river?" to criticize. "Why don't they do something?" It is easy It is much more difficult to move forward in constructive action, but that is what leaders do. Leaders come in all kinds and varieties with all sorts of caps and titles, and different circumstances require differences in those who assume leadership responsibilities. Each of those words -- Family, Community, and Leadership -- are tremendously important. You know a lot about FCL now. We are delighted, �6 simply overwhelmed, that 48 states plus Guam elected to come to this national dissemination workshop. year ago. I remember when we first started talking about this a Lois was always optimistic that everybody was going to come; the realists said if we could get 30 states it would be great. It's marvelous that there has been such an enthusiastic response. I have been asked to comment on plans for the future. say much about the future because you will determine that. I really cannot You will decide and you will be the key factor as to whether anything happens in your home state -- Alabama or Maryland or wherever. One of the realities is that foundations cannot do anything by themselves. We can only be helpful to you in addressing issues that you think are important. I suggest that if you reflect thoughtfully in addressing any issue, or in pursuing any opportunity, money is usually not the constraint. It is a part of the solution but usually not the limiting factor in making really important things happen. Only people are important. vision, commitment, skills and energy to make things happen. many of you comment that FCL has great potential. except as it's vested in you. People who have I have heard It really has none at all, It will do nothing unless you make it so. Speaking again for the Kellogg Foundation, we hope we can be a continuing helpful partner in pursuing what we regard as an extraordinary idea. As Jim has indicated, the planning grants will be available to you as a team in going back to your respective states to develop plans for the future if you subscribe to the stanzas on page 4.12 of your hymnal (FCL Handbook). Read page 4.12 and you will know exactly how to get a planning grant. I would indicate further that the Kellogg Foundation is prepared to consider assistance to those states that wish to develop a program based on the FCL experience and model. developed. The detailed guidelines have not yet been Dr. Gary King will be working on that from our perspective �7 along with people like Dr. Dan Moore, from Penn State, who will be joining us at the Foundation shortly. And we certainly will work with the program committee to develop those plans. At this point, however, the following points seem appropriate: 1. We will be prepared to provide grants to single states, or, if you feel that a collaborative effort of two or three or more states would be preferable, we would certainly consider that as a desirable option. 2. We will be concerned that the program you envision be built on the basis of these FCL materials, modified as appropriate to your state, to your communities, to your organizational structure, to your personalities and other appropriate factors. Basically, however, you should draw upon this rich reservoir of material based upon the experiences of many people in these six-state experimental efforts. 3. We will be concerned that you incorporate the essential components of the Family Community Leadership program. Those are on page 4.8 of the FCL Handbook and remember there are eight of them. In your own state you might want to modify some of them, and we wouldn't be concerned about that because experiences and materials of this sort do need to be adapted as well as adopted. However, we would expect each component to be thoughtfully addressed because each of them deals with a very significant element of the FCL format. 4. In the judgment of the program committee, one of the major needs for funding is for the expenses of volunteers, so we would be looking at the details of the budget to see how you address that need. 5. The Foundation will consider grants of up to $50,000 per state, probably spread over a two- or three-year period, based again upon your own program planning. �8 6. All of the t eams that request planning grants will be provided information regarding the guid elines for requesting further support. If and when you and your st ate team, with the assistance of a planning grant, come up with plans that you wish to have us consider, we will be anxious to hear from you. 1ve think this experiment in six st ates has been exciting, and we hope you will have opportunity to adopt and adapt -- do something in your respective st ates. We will be anx i ous to be helpful in bringing that about. In closing, I remind you that in our judgment only people are important. Sometimes as we look at all of the issues confront ing society we are almost overwhelmed by the future, by uncertainties, complexities, and challenges. Whenever I let myself get into that frame of mind as we look at all the options a va i l a bl e to the Foundation, I like to remind myself of a few lines that I l earned way back when. You may be famili ar with them: "I am only one, but I am one; I can't do everything, but I can do something; \fuat I c an do, I ought to do; And what I ou ght t o do, by the grac e of God, I will do." With reference to FeL, the potential is great, the time is right, it's future is you : 874c 11/5/86 We wish you Gods peed. � Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby Papers Subject The topic of the resource Charities Family foundations--Michigan Philanthropy and society Description An account of the resource The Russell Mawby papers document the life and work of Michigan-born Russell Mawby from 1928 to the present. Mawby was the Chief Executive Officer and Chairman of the W. K. Kellogg Foundation for twenty-five years and is recognized for his work in the area of philanthropy in the United States, Latin America, and Europe. The digital collection includes a selection of field notes, speeches, itineraries, and other materials. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell G. W.K. Kellogg Foundation Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby Papers (JCPA-01). Johnson Center for Philanthropy Archives</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Johnson Center for Philanthropy Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng Type The nature or genre of the resource Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 1938-2012 Text A resource consisting primarily of words for reading. Examples include books, letters, dissertations, poems, newspapers, articles, archives of mailing lists. Note that facsimiles or images of texts are still of the genre Text. Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/432">Russell Mawby papers, JCPA-01</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context JCPA-01_1986-09-26_RMawby_SPE Title A name given to the resource Russell Mawby speech at the Family Community Leadership Workshop Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mawby, Russell Description An account of the resource Speech given September 26, 1986 for the W. K. Kellogg Foundation at the Family Community Leadership Workshop. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Grand Valley State University Special Collections & University Archives Dorothy A. Johnson Center for Philanthropy and Nonprofit Leadership Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University Libraries, Special Collections and University Archives, 1 Campus Drive, Allendale, MI, 49401 Subject The topic of the resource Philanthropy and society Family foundations--Michigan W. K. Kellogg Foundation Charities Speeches, addresses, etc. Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 1986-09-26 Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource application/pdf Type The nature or genre of the resource Text