774 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7587fdbf9d46cb36f6032ae8956afe20.pdf d9956def951f0c21d75d7f770e234820 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Martha López Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/30/2012 Biography and Description English Martha López grew up in Chicago’s Lincoln Park neighborhood and recalls the thriving Puerto Rican community there, especially the youth groups, Caballeros de San Juan, and the Young Lords. She also recalls being attacked “from the whites and the blacks” who lived in different parts of Old Town and Lincoln Park. Chicago was a very segregated city in the 1950s and early 1960s and the neighborhood of Lincoln Park was no different. Ms. López recalls that she had to throw a few swings and was not afraid of fighting anyone male or female when she was confronted, but that she was never in a gang. Martha attended Arnold Elementary and Waller High School. Her husband was a decorated military veteran. Spanish Martha López creció en el vecindario de Lincoln Park y recuerda como la comunidad puertorriqueña prospera allí, especialmente en los jóvenes con grupos como Caballeros de San Juan y los Young Lords. También recuerda como fue atacada “por los blancos y morenos” quien vivía en otras partes del “Old Town” en Lincoln Park. Chicago era una ciudad muy segregado en los 1950 y 1960 y Lincoln Park no era diferente. Señora López recuerda que no tenía miedo de pelear con nadie cuando se enfrentaron con �ella, y tuvo que tirar unos golpes. Pero ella nunca fue parte de una ganga. López atendió Arnold Elementary y luego Waller High school. Su esposo es un veterano miliario condecorado. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Go ahead and give me your name again. MARTHA LOPEZ: Mi nombre es[00:00:02] Martha Lopez. (Spanish) [00:00:04 00:00:08] Martha [Martinez?]. JJ: Okay, Martha Martinez. Martha, when did you first come to Chicago, or were you born there? ML: I came in 1958. JJ: So you were born in Puerto Rico? ML: I was born in Puerto Rico. JJ: Where? What town are you from? ML: Arecibo. JJ: Arecibo? Okay. And you came in 1958. ML: Nineteen fifty-eight. JJ: Where did you live when you first came? ML: I lived at Dickens and Larrabee. JJ: Did you come by yourself, or were your brothers and sisters, your whole family, or how did you come? ML: My mother and my brothers. My father was already here. He came like a year before. JJ: And what was he doing? What kind of work was he doing? ML: He was a candy maker. JJ: Oh, a candy maker? Okay. [00:01:00] And so he saved money and brought the family? 1 �ML: Right. JJ: Now, did your mother come and work, or was she a housewife? ML: She was a housewife for a while. Then she worked at the candy packer called Peerless Confection. JJ: Okay. Okay. You don’t know where that was at? ML: Yeah, right over here on Schubert, Schubert and Lakewood. JJ: And Lakewood? ML: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. And so she packed the candy boxes and that? ML: She packed candies, yeah. Boxes, cans, different ornaments that they had. JJ: Okay. Was that -- also your father worked there? Is he the one that got her the job, or...? ML: Her brother. JJ: Her brother worked there. ML: Guillermo, the one you interviewed the other day, he got the job. He was foreman there for many years. JJ: Okay. So that was your mother’s brother? ML: Yes. JJ: Guillermo. Okay, okay. So ’58. [00:02:00] So Guillermo was part of the church. Was your mother part of the church too, or...? ML: No. My mother was from the Church of Christ. Well, my father was. Then my mother converted later. JJ: Okay. From the United Church of Christ? 2 �ML: No, just the Church of Christ. JJ: The Church of Christ, okay. How many other siblings -- how many brothers and sisters did you have? ML: Four brothers. One passed. JJ: One passed. Any sisters, or any other sisters? ML: No sisters. JJ: Okay. So it was five altogether? ML: Five altogether. JJ: And you were the youngest, the oldest, or...? ML: I was the second. Second-oldest. JJ: So you came in 1958, and you came to Diversey, that area? ML: Larrabee and Dickens. JJ: Oh, Larrabee. I’m sorry. Okay. You went right into the Lincoln Park neighborhood. ML: [00:03:00] Right. JJ: So how old were you then? ML: I was nine and a half. JJ: Okay. So you remember pretty good the neighborhood at nine and a half, no? ML: Well, yeah, then. Yeah. I remember. I still remember. It changed a lot, but I remember. JJ: Okay. What was the main population, the main group of people that lived there? ML: The main group? It was all mixed. JJ: It was all mixed? 3 �ML: It was all mixed. JJ: Okay. Were there a lot of Puerto Ricans, or no, or a few, or...? ML: A few. A few Puerto Ricans. JJ: At that time? Okay. ML: Yeah. JJ: How were the Puerto Ricans received? ML: Well, I didn’t notice anything, you know, around the neighborhood, because we were mainly kept inside. You know, everything was new to us, so my father really -- JJ: Even the brothers? Your brothers, too? ML: [00:04:00] My brothers, too. Mm-hmm. We were little kids. JJ: So he kept you inside. Why would he keep you inside if there was no Puerto Ricans outside, so there was no trouble you can get into, right? ML: Well, because we were kids, and we were new here, so we didn’t know, you know. We didn’t know anything about the United States. JJ: So he was worried that you might get lost or something? ML: Get lost and, you know -- my father was really, you know -- he really took care of us. JJ: What do you mean, he took care of you? ML: Well, he was always -- had us in, to keep us out of trouble. You know, they were always taking good care of us, my mom and dad. They never left us alone or anything. We were, what is it, twenty-four seven with them. They really [00:05:00] didn’t let us run around when we got here. Later on, then we got a 4 �little loose and stuff, like playing in the alleys and stuff, baseball. JJ: In the alley, you played baseball? ML: My brothers did, and then I followed. And I roller skated (laughs) in the alley. Learned how to roller skate. JJ: Okay. You mean with aluminum -- those steel roller skates? ML: Yes, mm-hmm. JJ: At that time. So you said you got a little loose. Was the alley a little dangerous, or no? ML: Well, then it wasn’t too dangerous, but, you know, when you’re a kid, you don’t know anything about danger. You just wanna play. And that’s what my brothers did. They played, and I also played. But my mom and dad were the ones that were always keeping an eye on us. They were always -- you know, we had to tell them where we were at all times. JJ: Okay. [00:06:00] Your father was in the Church of Christ. ML: Yes. JJ: So did you all go to the service, or...? ML: Yes, he took us. JJ: What was that like in the service? Were there more Spanish people there, or...? ML: There were a group of about 50 people. JJ: About 50 people? But how about the Spanish? ML: Spanish? Everybody was Spanish. JJ: Oh, at that church? ML: Yeah. They have two groups. They had an English group and a Spanish group. 5 �And there was a American lady that -- she took us. So they taught us the word of God. JJ: Okay. ML: It was pretty good. JJ: Did they have fellowship, like afterwards, or some kind of -- you know, where they get together afterwards, or...? ML: No, we just went home. JJ: Just went home after? ML: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. [00:07:00] That’s what he was in Puerto Rico? He was part of that church in Puerto Rico, or...? ML: No, uh-uh. I believe he was a Catholic, but I don’t remember seeing a church in Puerto Rico. JJ: When you were younger, you didn’t go to the Catholic church? ML: No. I don’t remember going to church. JJ: Okay. So you came here. Who were your friends? Did you have any girl friends at that time, at that age, or...? ML: In Puerto Rico? JJ: No, here, when you got here. ML: Here? Girl friends? No, it was mainly family. JJ: It was mainly family? ML: Yeah. JJ: Prima y[00:07:42], people like that, or...? 6 �ML: Prima y Primos, [00:07:45 - 00:07:47]. JJ: Okay, that you can remember. Well, you said something about Puerto Rico, so did you have a lot of friends in Puerto Rico, or no? ML: Puerto Rico? I don’t remember, because I came here when I was nine and a half. JJ: Okay, [00:08:00] so you don’t remember. Okay. ML: So I don’t remember having any close friends. JJ: Okay. So now you’re going to -- what school are you going to then, when you came here? ML: I went to Lincoln School when I came here. JJ: Okay, Lincoln School. ML: On Geneva -- I believe it’s Geneva and Dickens. Not sure if it’s Dickens. But it was on that neighborhood. Orchard? Orchard and Dickens, around there. JJ: Orchard and Dickens, around there, Lincoln School? ML: Orchard, Dickens -- there was Orchard, Dickens, and Geneva. I remember those streets. I think it’s still there. JJ: Yeah, it’s by Grant Hospital. That’s where you’re -- ML: Exactly. Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. And Lincoln School -- there’s a school somewhere around there, yeah. ML: Yeah, that’s the same one. I think it’s -- I have the picture there. JJ: And what do you remember from there, from that school? ML: What do I remember? Well, I didn’t know any English, that’s for sure, so I had [00:09:00] a battle tryin’ to -- you know, I had to try to learn the language. And 7 �fighting with the kids. JJ: Fighting with the kids? Why? ML: Because being Latina, we didn’t know that we had a language barrier, and I guess they didn’t like us. We got beat up. JJ: What do you mean, you guess -- how can you say that? Why would you say that? ML: Because they ran us home every day, and they used to beat my brothers up. I was always up front waiting for them so we could get home safe. JJ: So your brothers had to run home from school? ML: Just practically every day, we had to run home, and have a little fight in between. JJ: Now, this wasn’t a gang. This was just a -- ML: It wasn’t gangs. Kids beating up kids. JJ: Just kids beating [00:10:00] up kids at that time? ML: Yeah, just like now. Kids beat up kids. JJ: But this was white kids beating up on Spanish kids? ML: Yes. JJ: Mainly at that time? ML: At that time, yes. JJ: Because there were not really any Blacks in that area. ML: No, not really. Only when we lived -- JJ: I’m just -- I’m asking, I don’t know. ML: Only when we lived by Cabrini-Green. When we lived there, then we went to a school named Schiller, yeah. 8 �JJ: So you went first there, and you moved further south to Cabrini-Green? ML: Exactly. JJ: Okay. So you went the other way, going south instead of north. So you went to Schiller. Why would you go south? The [primary?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? ML: I don’t -- I think we went different places. Can I see those pictures? Because it’s got different schools there. JJ: Right here? ML: Yeah. The top ones, uh-huh. ’Cause I have -- I think I have both schools here. Nineteen fifty-nine, [00:11:00] I was at Lincoln School. Then 1960, I was at Agassiz. So I came north. JJ: Oh, you went north. ML: North. JJ: A little north. ML: And then from there -- JJ: So you were in Schiller first. ML: No, then from there we went to Schiller. JJ: Okay. So you went north, and then you went back the other way. ’Cause the cheaper housing was the other way. ML: There were brand-new apartments, so that’s why we went there. JJ: Oh, you went to Schiller ’cause they were brand new. ML: Brand new, so we had a -- JJ: Oh, okay. So actually, you were moving up. You were moving -- 9 �ML: We had a decent place to live, so we thought, but it wasn’t that decent. JJ: Why? ML: Because the neighborhood. It was all Blacks, and we didn’t know. It was like a jungle to us. JJ: Okay. What do you mean, it was like a jungle to you? ML: Well, we had to fight in school also. We got ran -- they ran us home. JJ: So first you were being run home by the white groups. ML: Yes. JJ: [00:12:00] And now you’re being run home by the Black groups. ML: Yes. JJ: At that time. Okay. ML: So I had to arm myself with a pair of scissors, and a belt, and a needle, under -with the belt. JJ: Okay. Put the needle in the belt? ML: Right. JJ: Okay. ML: So they wouldn’t pick on me. But then I would laugh, because my girl friends were getting run home, and then I -- I was walking, like, They’re not gonna touch me, because I felt protected. I’m protecting myself, but I felt protected, because I had a little scissors with me and a little needle and a belt. And then they left me alone. JJ: When you pulled it out, they left you alone? ML: I didn’t. I never pulled it out. 10 �JJ: Okay. You just felt stronger, tougher. ML: I felt protected, because I said, If anything happens, I’m not gonna let them get the best of me, because they did beat me up at first. [00:13:00] I took a good beating, and they made, like, a circle. And you would think it was a few kids. It was like hundreds of kids kicking on you and everything, when you’re getting beat up. JJ: And why do you think they were chasing you? ML: I didn’t think -- I think they didn’t like Hispanics. JJ: You think they didn’t like Hispanics? ML: I think it was a racial thing. JJ: Was it racial? ML: Mm-hmm. JJ: Because you were just new -- going back there, it was new, and -- ML: Well, we were the only -- you know, the only Hispanics around, very few. All of them got beat up. I don’t know if it was the difference because of the color or what, but I knew we took a good beating, and my brothers also. JJ: Now, after a while, did that stop or slow down, or it just kept going? ML: No, my father left. He moved back to the neighborhood [00:14:00] on Lincoln Avenue. JJ: He moved back to Lincoln Avenue? ML: Mm-hmm. JJ: So how long were you there in Schiller? ML: About a year. 11 �JJ: Just a year, and then you moved back? ML: Yeah, it was rough. JJ: So that Schiller’s more like Old Town. That was Old Town. ML: Old Town, yeah. JJ: Right. So at that time, there were very few Puerto Ricans in that -- living there. ML: They wouldn’t last. There was a little girl that got killed. They threw, like, a gallon of milk, which was glass, and dropped it from a tall floor right onto her head. They hit her head, ’cause she was hanging by the balcony, and they killed her. JJ: A Spanish girl? ML: A Spanish girl. Young girl, like an eight or nine, ten-year-old. JJ: And they were just playing around and throwing -- other kids playing around and threw it and hit her. ML: Somebody threw it from a top floor and [00:15:00] got her head. Don’t know if it was kids or what. JJ: Okay. But so [a lot of the?] Puerto Ricans were being beat up at that time in that area. That’s what you said. Then you moved back to Lincoln Avenue? ML: Yes. JJ: Now, when you moved back, were there more Spanish people living then? What year was this? ML: Lincoln Avenue? Then we took a fight with the Orientals, with Chinos.(overlapping dialogue) Yeah. JJ: With Orientals? With Chinos? They were living in that area? 12 �ML: They were living across the street from us. And they had a cleaners. Their parents were -- they had a cleaners, Sun Cleaners. That’s the name of the cleaners. Then there was another. I said, Okay. So I had to protect my brothers, so I made up, like, a little -- for protection, I picked up a bunch of bricks, [00:16:00] and I lined them up, because I knew they said that they were gonna beat my brothers up. So I lined them up. I had a bunch of bricks, maybe 10, 12 bricks, and when they came, I said, “You come over here, I’m gonna throw these bricks at you.” You know? “And I’m gonna really give you a fight.” Because my brothers, they didn’t know English, either, that much. But I was learning. Then they didn’t come. I didn’t have to use the bricks. They got scared, I guess. JJ: So you think some of this had to do because they didn’t know English, or...? ML: Could be, because at that time, they didn’t care about the Hispanics learning. I noticed that the Japanese and the Chinese in the school, in the classrooms, they had preference, and they had the best grades, [00:17:00] and they teached them the best -- like French, they didn’t let me take French, because I had a language barrier, so I couldn’t take it. And other classes that I already knew, they didn’t let us take those classes, because they didn’t want us to get further knowledge. And I noticed that they had a lot of preference with Orientals. JJ: So you had that problem with the Orientals that lived across the street? ML: That’s it, just across the street. JJ: And you also felt they had preference in the schools. ML: In school, yes, I noticed that. JJ: So you mentioned whites, and then you mentioned Blacks, then you mentioned 13 �Orientals. ML: (laughs) Yeah. JJ: So was the neighborhood like that, divided by race and...? ML: The neighborhood? JJ: Was it divided at all by race, or no? ML: No. JJ: Or nationalities? ML: It wasn’t. It wasn’t [00:18:00] divided. JJ: Just certain buildings and...? ML: That just happened, yeah. JJ: That just happened. ML: That just happened. JJ: Okay. Okay. But I mean, Cabrini-Green was mainly Black, African American. ML: Oh, yeah. JJ: So that -- so Puerto Ricans living there were not welcome at that time. ML: No. JJ: Although in some -- there was one project that was Latin, right, that was Spanish, or no? ML: It was scattered. Very few Spanish, very few. JJ: Okay, in 1959, around this. ML: Nineteen sixty, ’62 or ’63, around there. JJ: Okay. So at that time, there were not very many Puerto Ricans living there. ML: No. My uncle, they gave my uncle a beating, because he went to play dominoes, 14 �and he didn’t know. I call him my uncle, but he wasn’t really my uncle. But he was in the family. He was an older -- past 60, maybe 70. [00:19:00] And he liked to play dominoes, so he used to go with his little box of dominoes to play at my house. One day, they gave him a beating, and then he didn’t last long after that. JJ: This was by Cabrini-Green? ML: By Cabrini-Green. JJ: So he came to visit you at Cabrini-Green. ML: To visit to play dominoes, because he -- JJ: And they caught him outside? ML: They caught him around -- somewhere around the neighborhood, Larrabee and Division. JJ: Okay. And they beat him up, and they killed him, or...? ML: Well, he didn’t die right away, but he took a beating, and then he didn’t last long after that. I don’t know how long he lasted, but it wasn’t too long. JJ: Was he drinking or something, or that -- ML: No, he didn’t drink. He just -- he liked coffee. JJ: So you think they just beat him up because he was Spanish, and he -- ML: Yeah, in that neighborhood. He didn’t know. He wasn’t aware of his surroundings. Yeah. JJ: Okay. So you had to be aware of your surroundings? ML: In that area? Yeah. That was near Cooley High, all that area. JJ: [00:20:00] What does that mean, to be aware of your surroundings? What does that mean? 15 �ML: Well, to know the neighborhood, to know what kind of difficulties you’re gonna face about crime. You don’t know who’s gonna -- you always gotta watch your back. You don’t know if they’re gonna beat you up or pull a knife, at that time. I don’t think they had guns at that time. But -- or just take a beating. You have to always watch out, at night, especially. JJ: So it has to do with your time of day, and it’s at nighttime? ML: Well, not really the time of day. It could have happened anytime. But mostly at night. That’s when most crimes happen anyway. JJ: And you knew that. You [00:21:00] knew that from experience, or...? ML: Well, yeah, because my father kept us inside. He said, “Don’t you go out.” You know, we were kids anyway, but he wasn’t even -- he didn’t even go outside after dark, because one time, they threw a stone at him, too, and got him by the leg or something, a stone or a rock, whatever, got him by the leg. JJ: So part of your growing up meant being trained how to act outside. ML: It was natural instinct. We didn’t get trained. We just knew. You know? It was fear. Yeah, we didn’t really get any training. JJ: And so you felt that when you walked outside -- ML: We just felt it. Mm-hmm. JJ: You felt that you had to walk around, watch out. Who’s this person and that person? ML: Right. JJ: Okay. So that was part of growing up there in Old Town, in the Old Town. ML: Right. It was just natural instinct, you know. [00:22:00] You were the prey, 16 �period. JJ: Okay. So now you went to Schiller. You went back to by Schiller Street. But then after that, where did you go after that? ML: Came back to Lincoln Avenue. JJ: And where did you go to school there? ML: Agassiz. JJ: So Agassiz. ML: And then I graduated at Agassiz. JJ: May I see that picture [and what’s in it?]? So that picture -- ML: Is that Lincoln or Agassiz? Here’s Agassiz. JJ: Oh, that’s Agassiz right there? Okay. So this picture here is primarily -- it’s mostly -- I see a few Latino faces, but it’s mostly a white school at that time? ML: Yes. Let’s see. JJ: Okay. So how was -- there are at least more -- you know, there’s a few Latinos in there, right, [00:23:00] but it’s mostly white? ML: [Not?] many. You see that? JJ: You had many Latinos? (inaudible) all white. ML: There’s one, two -- there’s only two. JJ: Only two Latinos? ML: Two Latinos. JJ: And what are the rest? What nationality are the rest, do you think? ML: Well, they could be German. There’s a Oriental girl there. German, Irish. Maybe German and Irish and -- 17 �JJ: So it was more mixed. That area was more mixed. ML: Yeah, more Europeans. JJ: More Europeans, but it was more mixed. But how did you feel? ML: In this class? JJ: Yeah. ML: [00:24:00] I felt -- because I was older than these kids, because they lowered my grade. JJ: Oh, they lowered your grade? Why? Why did they do that? ML: Because of the language barrier, they lowered my grade. See the difference? JJ: Did they do that to other people, or...? ML: I was here. What’s -- two-A. Then they raised me -- see the same year? From one year difference? Then they raised me to four-B. JJ: So they raised you. They didn’t lower you. ML: They didn’t lower me, because I was already -- I’m in four, but in Puerto Rico, I was going to study fifth grade already, so they lowered me when I came here to second grade. JJ: Oh, so you went from fifth grade to second grade. ML: To second grade. JJ: And then they moved you back up to fourth? ML: Fourth. So I’m still missing some years. I graduated late. JJ: So you kind of went jumping around different levels. ML: Different levels. So, you know. JJ: How did you feel about [00:25:00] that? 18 �ML: Well, I felt like I didn’t belong there, ’cause I was older than those kids, so -- but I still went. You know? I went to school every day. Then I had to change my name, because they called me Maria instead of Marta. My name is Marta, and they called Maria, and I never said -- I didn’t say present, because they didn’t call my name. So one day, the teacher put a bunch of absentees. She said, “You’ve been absent for this and that and that.” And I said, “What?” I said, “I’ve been here.” She said, “I called your name, Maria, and you never answered.” I said, “Because my name is not Maria. My name is Marta.” So she was gonna fail me for some classes for that, and then I said, Well, only one thing to do. This is me as a kid, [00:26:00] thinking. I’m gonna change my name. So instead of Marta, I put Martha. I added an H. And then from then on, I wasn’t absent anymore. And my name’s been Martha ever since. JJ: Okay. So you still changed your name, because they didn’t -- ML: I changed it myself. JJ: Changed it to English. Okay. But they could relate to Martha, because that was more English. ML: Right. Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. You had to change your name. Okay. So they put you down in grade. You felt kind of bad, because you were down in the grade. How old were you around that time? Do you remember, or...? ML: How old? JJ: Yeah. Fifth grade, or -- ML: When they lowered? 19 �JJ: Yeah. Well, I mean, when you were in fifth grade, what was -- so -- ML: When I was nine and a half, I was gonna study fifth grade in Puerto Rico, and then I was brought here. JJ: Okay, so that was the same year, basically. ML: Nineteen [00:27:00] fifty-eight. JJ: Nineteen fifty-eight. Okay. So what do you remember of that area at that time, and what was going on in that area? I mean, were you just staying at home, or what were you doing? ML: Where I lived? JJ: Yeah. ML: Or where I went to school? JJ: Where you lived by Agassiz. What was that area like? ML: It was goo-- it was better. JJ: It was better? ML: We stayed home. Walked the streets a little bit. There was a playground. Used to go up to the playground and play, on Wrightwood and Lincoln. It was real -you know, because I didn’t see a lot of conflicts there. It was, like, more free. You were able to walk the streets and be more free. JJ: And your father, how did he feel, your father (inaudible)? ML: Oh, he was happy. Plus it was closer to [00:28:00] work. JJ: For his job? ML: Mm-hmm. JJ: So he was pretty happy, and he felt that you were in a safe area. 20 �ML: Safer area. JJ: So the neighborhood begins to change, right, in ’58 and ’59? That neighborhood starts changing? Or when did it start changing more Puerto Rican? ML: There were more -- a lot more Latinos coming around that time around that area. JJ: So do you stay hanging around the playground, or...? ML: Oh, yeah. JJ: So that became like a center for you, the playground, or no? ML: A little, yeah, for recreation and that, playing baseball and stuff. JJ: Were more Puerto Rican -- where you played baseball? ML: And -- well, my brothers did. JJ: Was it league ball or softball? ML: No, no, just -- JJ: Softball, the big softball? ML: Just among our -- you know, themselves, playing softball. JJ: Because they used to have [00:29:00] the big one, right, the 16-inch? ML: Right. But no league or anything. JJ: But everybody played the 16-inch ball (inaudible) -- ML: Right. JJ: -- all your brothers and that? Were they part of a group or anything, your brothers? ML: No, no. My brothers were not part of anything. JJ: But did they have a team? ML: No team. Just relatives got together and stuff and played. 21 �JJ: And they played right there. Okay. But the neighborhood was white, and now it’s changing more Spanish, no? Did that create any problems? Or it didn’t change? ML: No, it was mixed. It was all mixed. JJ: It was always mixed. Okay. So you didn’t experience any problems with any other races? ML: No. JJ: Except when you were younger, when you first got there. Then everybody got along after -- ML: Right. JJ: Okay. But did it increase in Spanish people, or no? ML: No, it was not too many Hispanics around this area. JJ: Okay. So it was always like that. ML: Yeah, very few. You could [00:30:00] count them. Yep. JJ: Okay. So how long did you stay in Agassiz? ML: I stayed there till I graduated, 1964. JJ: Okay, 1964? And then -- so what grades were you in? Fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth? ML: I went from fourth to, what, was that eighth? Eighth grade. JJ: To eighth. Did you graduate in eighth, or did you go to Arnold -- ML: No, I didn’t go to Arnold. JJ: -- Upper Grade Center? No? So you went from Agassiz to Waller? ML: Right. 22 �JJ: Okay. So, okay. So now there was no problems at school? You got along very well with everybody? ML: At Waller? JJ: In the Agassiz. ML: I got along, but we didn’t really make friends. I didn’t have friends. [00:31:00] My friends were my brothers. JJ: Okay. Why didn’t you make friends with the other girls that were there? ML: Because we didn’t fit in. JJ: I don’t understand, because you were speaking English? ML: Because I’m Spanish. I’m trying to learn English. We’re Spanish. I didn’t have any friends. JJ: Oh, you were trying to learn English then. ML: Right. But I didn’t have any friends. I don’t know if -- JJ: Were you just not friendly, was that you, or...? ML: No, I guess I didn’t fit in. I don’t know, but we didn’t have any -- JJ: Did you have Spanish friends? Well, you had your brothers. ML: My brothers. That’s it. JJ: Okay, you didn’t have -- okay. Because you were kept at home. ML: Right. JJ: I mean, is that -- am I putting words, or -- were you kept at home because you were female, or -- ML: No, my brothers, too. JJ: Oh, they were being kept at home. 23 �ML: Oh, yeah. JJ: So that’s why you were -- because everybody was at home all the time. But you had other relatives, though, that would visit? ML: Oh, yeah. I had uncles. JJ: Okay. So [00:32:00] you were closer to family and your brothers. ML: Right. JJ: Basically, you didn’t really make any outside friends. ML: Not many. JJ: Because your mother and father wanted you in the house. ML: Right. Well, they worked. You know, they labored. We went to bed early. They put us to bed early, around 8:30, 8:00 or 9:00. JJ: Okay. And you babysat each other, right, or did you have a babysitter? ML: Well, my father took care of us. We didn’t babysit each other. He was always there. It was either him or my mother. So, you know. JJ: So there was always somebody there. ML: Yeah. JJ: Okay. And you stayed mostly at your home while you were at Agassiz. Okay. So now you’re in Waller, right? How far did you go to Waller? ML: Well, it was about a mile. JJ: Okay. No, I mean how far in years? ML: Twelfth grade. JJ: You graduated from Waller? Okay. [00:33:00] Okay. Well, tell me about Waller. ML: I don’t have the pictures, though. I don’t know what happened to them. I lost 24 �them. JJ: You know, maybe just tell me what -- ML: Waller? JJ: -- the first day you went to -- ML: Another merry-go-round. (laughter) Then we had a lot of Latinos going in there. I was a freshy. JJ: Now, you had to take the bus to get there, right? ML: Huh? JJ: You had to take the bus? ML: Took the bus, and sometimes I walked. JJ: Okay. But it was a merry-go-round, another merry-go-round? ML: That was another -- then they had the whites, the Blacks, and the Latinos. But then they had the Latinos that were in higher grades, so they would go against the ones that were in lower grades, like the freshies, and throw pennies, and -- JJ: What do you mean, throw pennies? What do you mean? ML: Throw pennies at the freshies. JJ: Oh, just throw them at you. ML: Yeah, because you’re a freshy. JJ: So they hit the freshies with the pennies? ML: Right. [00:34:00] And then they didn’t like them. They didn’t welcome the freshies, because, you know, we were new, and we were dumb, and stuff. We didn’t know what’s going on. So then we had to form our own little group. JJ: So Latinos throwing at other Latinos. 25 �ML: Yeah. JJ: So that means there were a lot of Latinos there -- ML: Yeah. JJ: -- at Waller. Okay. But, I mean, it was a mixed school, but there were a lot of Latinos. ML: Right. JJ: What -- Puerto Rican -- ML: The girls with the different hairdos and stuff. JJ: Puerto Rican, Mexican, what, you know? ML: No, more Puerto Rican. JJ: At that time? Okay. ML: Yeah. JJ: All right. And you said the girls with the what? ML: Different hairdos and stuff. JJ: What kind of hairdos? What kind? What do you mean? ML: Teasing their hair. Teased-up hair. JJ: Beehives? None of that? Is that what they call it? ML: I don’t know what they call them, but -- JJ: When it’s round or something? ML: Yeah, real -- I don’t know. I guess they got teased hair or something. JJ: Teased hair? [00:35:00] Okay. Because this was the sixties, so they were teasing their hair. ML: Yeah, teased their hair. 26 �JJ: Afros, like, or something like that, or...? ML: No, no afros. JJ: Okay, not at that time. You’re talking about what year (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? ML: Oh, that’s ’64. JJ: In ’64, you were in Waller? ML: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. ML: So they’d throw pennies at us. And then they had boyfriends. They were after their guy, keeping an eye on their guys and stuff. So anyway -- JJ: And the freshies were after their guys, too. ML: (laughter) I guess so. Anyway, we had to form our own group of friends. JJ: What was your group? ML: No, just friends, because we were freshies, so we’d form our own groups and stuff. JJ: So did you form your group according to the neighborhood you came from, or just -- ML: No, just in the -- that was the first time ever -- JJ: The class, or the classroom you were in? ML: -- I ever started a group. [00:36:00] No, just -- no, we started our little group together, you know, hanging out, friends hanging around. JJ: Who was in your group? Do you remember? ML: Just my friend [Shelley?], [Daisy?], [Gladys?]. We had our own -- [Maria?]. Girls 27 �-- you know, we just got together and we hung around together, because don’t forget, there was the Black girls, too. And they would pull our hairs. They were jealous and stuff, so they’d pull our hairs and start something. JJ: So they had a group, too, then, the Black girls. ML: The Blacks? JJ: Had a group too. ML: Of course. They were together. JJ: So were the groups based on -- were they mostly, like, nationality? Like, they would have Puerto Rican girls, and then they had Black girls, and Irish girls, Italian girls? Was it like that, or...? ML: I don’t know. What I noticed [00:37:00] is that we had our group, and the Blacks, I don’t know what kind of group -- JJ: What was your group? Were they mostly Puerto Rican, you group? ML: Puerto Ricans. JJ: All Puerto Ricans? ML: All Puerto Ricans. JJ: That’s what I mean. So you had all Puerto Ricans and all Blacks. ML: Right. But it wasn’t because we were fighting the Blacks. We were fighting our own nationality. (laughs) JJ: You were fighting your own nationality. ML: Our own nationality. JJ: Other Puerto Rican groups? ML: Other Puerto Ricans, because of the grades, higher grades, lower grades. 28 �JJ: So the freshies were fighting the seniors, and -- ML: Not really fighting. Just, you know. JJ: Harassing? ML: Harassing and stuff, yeah. JJ: And one of the things was throwing pennies. And what else? What (inaudible)? ML: That’s all. Throwing pennies and saying words, like, “You’re a dummy,” and stuff. Nothing really, really bad, you know. JJ: Nothing really bad? Okay. Now -- ML: But I never got into a fight or anything at school [00:38:00] at Waller. JJ: Were there a lot of these little groups, or a few of them, or not that many? ML: I don’t remember if there was any. All I remember is our group. You know, who you hung around with. Like all the other girls, they were, like -- they say the word orgullosa. JJ: Okay, orgullosa. ML: How would you say that? Too much pride? JJ: Proud? Too much pride? ML: Yeah. Orgullosa to go against, you know, the way you were. JJ: Now you were already speaking English pretty good, though, right? ML: Well, somewhat. JJ: Somewhat. Did some people have accents, or did you notice that, or no? ML: Didn’t notice much the accents, because when you’re -- you know, you’re a kid. You pick it up pretty fast, and you start [00:39:00] speaking the language. JJ: Did your parents have accents? 29 �ML: Yeah. JJ: They had accents? Okay. ML: They didn’t speak much. JJ: But they understood. So they didn’t speak much English, but they understood it. ML: Well, I don’t think they understood, either. JJ: They didn’t understand much? (laughter) ML: No, no. They didn’t understand that much. JJ: But they acted like they understood [so they didn’t know?]? ML: No. They knew that they didn’t know the language. They knew. JJ: So you were like their translator, or...? ML: Oh, no. My mother went to school, and she took a couple of classes. I don’t remember my father going, but my mother did. English classes. JJ: Okay, she took some English classes. Okay. So this is 1964. You’re moving up in Waller. How is Waller changing during that time? What do you remember at Waller? [00:40:00] How was your studying and stuff? Did you like it, or what do you remember? ML: I liked it, but like I said, keeping up with the grades and that wasn’t that easy. JJ: Were there just too much things to do, or that people didn’t want to focus on school, or...? ML: Well, I usually cut a lot of classes, because I didn’t feel like I belonged there, either. I used to cut, especially the study periods. That’s what I used to cut. I don’t know if you remember Mr. [Scoltise?]? He used to be there, a teacher. JJ: I remember study group, but I don’t remember -- 30 �ML: Study group. Yeah, we liked that one, because we used to cut, and he didn’t really pay attention to -- [00:41:00] he didn’t take -- JJ: Attendance? ML: -- any -- what do you call? JJ: Attendance? ML: Attendance. So we used to cut. JJ: And so you cut. Where did you go to? ML: Oh, we used to go by Lincoln Park, by the canoes, where they -- those boats, like in the summertime. JJ: By the (inaudible)? ML: Yeah. Get in those boats, and then get out the little boat, and go onto that little island. Yeah. Once in a while. We didn’t do that often. But when it got warm, that’s where we were. JJ: Yeah, ’cause the park is right there. Lincoln Park is right there. Okay. What about -- weren’t there neighborhood groups at that time, in ’64, ’65? Weren’t there, like, the Black Angels and the -- ML: We didn’t see any groups. JJ: -- the (inaudible) [Aces?], or [your Queens?]? You didn’t see any of those? ML: We didn’t see any groups. All I remember is seeing the sweaters. JJ: [00:42:00] Oh, so you did see the sweaters. ML: That they wore. And then it was announced. Whenever there was gonna be a fight or something, it was announced, and I just ran and took the bus home. JJ: What do you mean it was announced? 31 �ML: They announced -- somehow we knew that they were gonna have a gang fight. I don’t know. JJ: Is this kind of word of mouth? ML: Word of mouth. JJ: But everybody knew, all the Latinos. ML: Right. We were aware. JJ: Were Latinos fighting Latinos, or what was --? ML: No, they were not fighting Latinos. I think they were fighting other gangs. JJ: Other gangs that were around at the time? ML: Uh-huh. That came from different areas. JJ: To that school to fight? ML: Mm-hmm. JJ: And you would know it, and right away, you would get on the bus and -- ML: Right. JJ: So there was another reason to cut school, then, no? ML: To cut school? No, not really. JJ: Okay. So you didn’t -- you weren’t -- ML: No. I went to the classes. Just some classes that I cut, you know, [00:43:00] like the study periods. All the other classes I made. JJ: So instead of hanging around after school, when you knew there was a gang fight, you would hurry up and get on the bus. ML: Hurry up and get out. JJ: And get outta there, ’cause -- would people get cut up, or beat up, or -- 32 �ML: Never know. I never really been in between the gang, but I guess there would be blood. JJ: Was there blood? I mean, I’m just -- ML: I’ve never seen it. JJ: Okay. You never saw it. ML: No. JJ: But people didn’t want to be around when there was a gang fight. ML: Oh, no. Who wants to be around when there’s fighting, you know? JJ: Right. ML: We took off. JJ: You said you saw the sweater. What color sweaters? ML: I think I remember like a purple. JJ: A purple? ML: Purple. JJ: Black and purple? That was the Young Lords. ML: Could be. JJ: And then you had black and pink was the (inaudible). ML: Black and pink, yeah. JJ: But you remember the black and purple ones? ML: Mm-hmm. And what el-- black and [00:44:00] pink? JJ: Black and pink was the Imperial Gangsters. Then you had black and white was the Eagles. ML: Eagles. I remember vaguely, vaguely, you know. I remember the sweaters, 33 �though. JJ: Because these people used to throw dances, too. (inaudible) dances? ML: No, I wasn’t allowed. JJ: You weren’t allowed to go to the dance? Did you go to any school dances? ML: Never. My father wouldn’t let us. JJ: You couldn’t ever go to the dance? ML: No. JJ: Well, because of the church he belonged to, right? They didn’t believe in dancing? ML: No, not necessarily. It’s just that he knew that it wasn’t good -- you know, the area wasn’t that good, so we never went. JJ: So what kind of stuff did you do for recreation? ML: Oh, we watched a lot of television, played dominoes. My father had family come over. Just mainly with the family. JJ: Mainly with the family? And was there a lot of family? Did you have a lot of family? ML: Oh, yeah. We had a lot of family. [00:45:00] Uncles -- mainly uncles. Aunts, uncles, but mainly uncles that came over. My mom’s brothers, they usually come over, and she used to cook. I used to help her. They would come and visit and hang out, play a little domino, drink a little cup of coffee or whatever. At that time, nobody drank. It was mainly coffee. JJ: So just mainly coffee then? ML: Yeah. 34 �JJ: Your family didn’t drink? ML: Now you go to somebody’s house, and they ask you, “Do you want a drink?” Well, mainly in the sixties -- I mean, in the seventies, instead of giving you coffee, they started giving you drink. “You want a drink?” You know, liquor. JJ: But before that, it was just coffee. ML: Before, it was, like, coffee. JJ: And stuff like that. ML: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. ML: By the seventies we had -- that’s where everybody started, like, [00:46:00] boozing, you know, and drinking. JJ: What do you mean? Why was that? Why did they start boozing at that time in the seventies? ML: Well, I guess everybody -- you know, they were not kids anymore, all the kids that came from Puerto Rico. They were teenagers and stuff, or not teenage. They were almost past teenagers. So they were free to drink, so then they were drinking. And not only that, there was marijuana. They were doing marijuana and booze, and who knows what else. A lot of dope. JJ: A lot of that dope at that time? ML: Yeah, but mainly marijuana. JJ: Because that was the late sixties. You’re talking about the late sixties? ML: Well, and the beginning of the seventies. Seventies. I don’t know if you remember the hippie era. You remember that? 35 �JJ: Right. So that was the hippie era? ML: That was towards the end of [00:47:00] the sixties, about ’67. Sixty-six, ’67, around there. Hippie era. That’s when the hippie era came, and then the whites turned hippie. Then they started drafting people, so they draft the Blacks and they draft the Puerto Ricans, and the whites stayed behind, and they turned hippie. Right? So they had to go -- the Latinos had to go and the Blacks went, and the lower-class whites went, like the hillbillies. But not the ones that -- not the whites. They went hippie. And I remember that era. I don’t know if you ever -- did you ever go to Lincoln Park when that was full of people, full of hippies? JJ: The demonstrations, you mean, that they had? ML: [00:48:00] Yeah. Not only demonstration. Everybody was a hippie, and they have the long hair. I believe they did that to keep from going to the war, which was Vietnam coming up. JJ: To get away from the war? ML: To get away. I think they were told to do stuff like that to keep going from the war, the whites. Mm-hmm. JJ: So that was the era of the hippies, the anti-war -- ML: That’s when they turned hippie. JJ: -- anti-war movement that they had, or -- ML: Right. JJ: Okay. And that affected the neighborhood too? ML: No, it didn’t. Well, no, not really. You know? Just when I was curious and I just went to the -- they were quiet people. They didn’t want to go to the war. That’s 36 �one thing that kept them from going. But they were quiet, and they didn’t bother anybody. I didn’t see any fights or anything. They were kinda [00:49:00] mellow, because they were full of grass, you know? JJ: So there was a lot of grass going around. ML: Oh, in the park, all over. JJ: Did you ever smoke any grass? ML: No. Thank God. Knock on wood. (Spanish) [00:49:15]. JJ: She doesn’t want to admit it, huh? You don’t -- ML: Huh? JJ: You don’t want to admit it? Is that what he’s asking? ML: No, because he’s looking over here. (laughter) No, we didn’t. No. My brothers, they did. I think my brother [Nicky?] got a hold of it. JJ: But a lot of the women that you knew did not -- they weren’t doing that. ML: No. They didn’t smoke that. JJ: But the guys did. ML: I think it was more of a guy thing. JJ: At that time? ML: At that time. My husband, he didn’t like it either. He’d rather drink. I like the way -- (Spanish) [00:49:58] laughing over here, [00:50:00] though. Crack me up. No, because, you know, my father -- we didn’t even drink in our house. JJ: Okay. He didn’t drink either? ML: My father? No. He did that when he was young. JJ: When he was young? Okay. 37 �ML: In Puerto Rico. But it wasn’t for him, so -- JJ: But did he get in trouble with it, or he just decided not to drink? You know, some people they drink a lot, and they quit, and then they never drink again. Was that -- ML: No, he just -- you know, he had five of us to raise, so he came over here, and boozing wasn’t gonna be for him, so that’s when he looked into the religion. But alcohol did not go well with him. He would go, like, crazy when he drank. JJ: Oh, okay. So that’s why -- so that was the reason that he stopped? ML: Right. But he wasn’t even really, really an alcoholic. JJ: He wasn’t an alcoholic. He just said it didn’t go well. ML: It didn’t go well with him. JJ: Okay. [00:51:00] And he told you that that’s why he stopped? ML: No, he just didn’t pick it up anymore. He went to church, took us to church. JJ: He was in the church, so you never really saw him drinking a lot. ML: No. He couldn’t tolerate it. JJ: Okay. But your brothers, they liked it a little bit? ML: Oh, yeah. Especially -- yeah. They all did. They all drank. I drank myself, but I didn’t really care for it either. But, you know, everywhere you went was, “You want a drink? You want this?” You know? A lot of little parties going on. And there was booze. JJ: In people’s houses, or -- the parties? ML: Yeah. JJ: So I mean, like, were you going to the baptisms and the quinceañera? 38 �ML: No, this was, like, teenage -- you know, not -- we were past teenagers, but like my brothers, they had their own apartments, and you’d go over there and hang out. [00:52:00] Bring some friends, hang out, and they’d be drinking and stuff. Little parties at home. They would come to my place. JJ: So this was in the seventies, or...? ML: Seventies, yeah. JJ: Okay. So they would come to your place, and you would have parties in there? ML: Mm-hmm, we had parties there. JJ: So you had to drink a little bit for a little bit. ML: Yeah, I did. JJ: Okay, you did drink? ML: Yeah, and my husband, he loved drinking. JJ: Beer, or...? ML: He liked beer. JJ: Okay. And you drank beer? That was it? ML: A little bit. I couldn’t tolerate it much either. But I did drink for a little while. JJ: But nothing heavy. ML: But then when I saw that it wasn’t for me, and I said, Nah, this is not for me, so I said, Forget it. So I don’t drink. JJ: Okay. So now when did you get married? ML: I got married in 1972. JJ: Okay, so it was early, ’72? So were you finished with high school by then? [00:53:00 You had finished high school already. 39 �ML: Yes. I finished high school in 1968. JJ: And where were you working at? ML: I was working at Saint Joseph Hospital. JJ: Oh, yeah, that’s right. Okay. ML: I worked there for about nine and a half years. JJ: Did you have any children? ML: No children. JJ: No children? Okay. By choice, or -- ML: Couldn’t have any children. No, I couldn’t have them, and then my husband couldn’t have them either, because they sprayed the veterans with that Agent Orange, so couldn’t have ’em, so just stopped trying. JJ: Is that what they told him, that because of the Agent Orange, you -- ML: Oh, no. They never admitted that he was sprayed. But they sprayed the veterans with that chemical. The government never admits to that, but they did. And that really destroyed a lot of soldiers. They’re gettin’ [00:54:00] destroyed right now. They get a lot of different cancers, different forms of diseases, mainly cancers. But my husband got one called scleroderma, and that destroyed him. It destroys the whole immune system. And that’s what he died from. He caught lupus, hypertension of the lungs, a lot of different diseases, diabetes, thyroid problem, everything. Then at the end, it was renal failure. And it’s all due to that spray that they sprayed over there. JJ: That Agent Orange. ML: It’s Agent Orange, but the real word is -- the chemical [00:55:00] word is dioxin. 40 �Plus other stuff that they put these soldiers through that they never say. They get injected and everything [if he didn’t?] fight. That’s why when they come back, they get that shell shock, and they want to kill somebody. So that was another era where I had a struggle with my husband. JJ: What do you mean? ML: Well, because he was -- he used to get, like, posttraumatic from the army, flashbacks. So I had to be aware at all times what was gonna happen, if he was gonna pick up a gun or somethin’, or shoot me, or whatever, which I never did see any guns, but he did mention seven guns that he had in the house or hiding somewhere. But I never saw them. But then towards the end, when he passed, it wasn’t seven guns. It was seven [00:56:00] medals that he had earned from the army, but never a gun. Yeah. It’s sad, but that’s what they did to those poor men. Yep. JJ: So it affected -- the war affected him. But you were married before he went to the war, or...? ML: No. JJ: It was after he came back. ML: He came back 1969. Seventy-two, we got married. JJ: Then in ’72, you got married? Did you know him before he went? ML: No. JJ: Okay. ML: It was a blind date. Met him on a blind date. And what a blind date. (laughter) Oh, yeah. 41 �JJ: [00:57:00] So you stayed married to him for how long? ML: Almost 36 years. JJ: That’s good. Congratulations. ML: Yeah. JJ: So you never were married before or anything like that? ML: No. JJ: Your only marriage was to him. Okay. ML: Yep. JJ: And you said he recently passed away, you said? ML: He passed, what, 2008. Two-oh-eight. That’s when he passed. October 25, 2008. JJ: October 25th? Was his family from Arecibo, too, or no? ML: Yes. JJ: Oh, so even though you didn’t meet before, did your family know their family, or...? ML: No. Different sections. JJ: Of Arecibo. ML: Different barrios, uh-huh. JJ: [00:58:00] Actually, my sister lives in Camuy, which is not too far from there. ML: From Arecibo? JJ: From Camuy, yeah, it’s not too far from Arecibo. I mean, a little further west. ML: I wouldn’t know, because I just went back only a couple of times to Puerto Rico, two or three times. 42 �JJ: Okay. So you were born there, and you came when -- how old were you? Nine, you said? ML: Nine and a half. JJ: And then you went back when? ML: I went back in the eighties for my father and mother. They moved back over there in 1978, I believe. JJ: Okay. And for how long were you there? ML: They were there till about 1995, around there. JJ: Oh, so, like, 10 years. ML: They stayed a long time there. JJ: And you stayed with them? ML: Oh, no. I was living here. JJ: So you came back. You just went with them for -- ML: I just went to visit. JJ: Okay, and then you came back? ML: Came back, and I went back and forth a couple of more times. JJ: [00:59:00] Okay. Each time was like a couple weeks at a time? ML: I took a good vacation for two and a half month to Puerto Rico, and one week to Florida. I went with my grandmother. JJ: Okay. So while your parents were there, you were with your grandmother over here? ML: No, no, I was living with my husband. JJ: Okay. 43 �ML: Yeah. I was living with him. And I took off for two and a half month. JJ: Okay. So you really -- so your community’s more here than over there, or no? I mean, you feel more comfortable here than there, than in Puerto Rico, or how -- ML: Yes, because in Puerto Rico, you know, I don’t know much about Puerto Rico, and I don’t drive over there, so traveling -- you know, getting back and forth would be a little hard. And being a woman isn’t easy either. JJ: No, [01:00:00] [not in Puerto Rico?]. ML: No. So I feel better over here. JJ: You feel better over here? ML: Yeah, more safety. JJ: And this neighborhood hasn’t really changed that much, right? ML: This neighborhood? Yeah. There’s a lot of yuppies. JJ: Now? ML: Okay, that moved over here. JJ: But I mean, it was always mixed. I mean, you know, right? ML: It’s mostly whites. JJ: Mostly whites? ML: Mostly whites. JJ: So I mean, what I’m saying is, you don’t really -- it hasn’t really changed that much for you at that time when it was mixed. ML: Oh, no, it’s the same thing, just about. JJ: So that’s why you feel more at home where you’re living. Do you still live in the area, or no? 44 �ML: Yeah, I live around -- it’s called North Center area, but it’s Lakeview. It’s North Center. Yeah, [01:01:00] I know the areas and stuff. But -- JJ: But these people you grew up with, they’re not around? ML: They’re not around. They’re all gone. JJ: So how do you feel about that? ’Cause that’s, like, your whole community that’s gone. ML: I don’t know, because I was usually on my own anyway. You know? So -- JJ: So it didn’t affect you? ML: It doesn’t affect me. You have to learn to survive and make it on your own. JJ: But okay, it doesn’t affect you personally, but what about -- how do you feel that Puerto Ricans were kicked out of that whole area? ML: I never knew they were kicked out. JJ: Oh, they weren’t kicked out? Okay. ML: I don’t think so. They just moved on. Moved on with their lives. JJ: Okay. Okay. [01:02:00] Okay. I’m putting words (laughs) in your mouth. So they weren’t kicked out. They just moved on. ML: Yeah, I don’t think so. You know? They just went on, you know, different phases of life. You have to face it, you know? I don’t think the Puerto Ricans were ever kicked out. You know? JJ: Yeah, yeah. So why do you think the neighborhood changed? I mean, you just think that they just moved on, or...? ML: Why’d the neighborhood change? I think it changed for the better. You don’t see much -- you know, people fighting around here, so it changed for the better. 45 �JJ: And there was a lot of fighting at that time? ML: Not even around here, no, not too much. Mainly over -- JJ: At Waller? ML: Waller, but not around here. JJ: So it’s good that it changed. Now there’s no more fights at Waller and that? ML: Well, I don’t know if they have fights there, [01:03:00] ’cause I haven’t been there since when? It’s called Lincoln Park School now. JJ: Right, Lincoln Park High. ML: I don’t know if they’re fighting, but who knows what’s going on in school now? JJ: So what you feel is basically that Puerto Ricans have lifted themselves up in Chicago? ML: Yes. JJ: Okay. And how is that? Is that -- how have they done that? ML: Well, they bettered themselves. JJ: I mean, what sort of things did they do to better themselves? ML: Well, the parents work hard, that’s for sure, and then they gave knowledge to their kids. Whatever knowledge they acquired is what helped them move forward. JJ: Okay. So it was the parents that worked hard that had a -- ML: It was the parents that worked hard that put us -- JJ: Okay. ML: To better educate us. JJ: So the Puerto Rican families that you knew were hard workers -- 46 �ML: [01:04:00] Yes. JJ: -- and they pushed their kids, and their kids moved on -- ML: Moved on with their lives -JJ: -- and they improved themselves. ML: -- and got educated. JJ: Okay. There was no discrimination to you whatsoever? ML: Discrimination with --? JJ: Puerto Ricans at all, or other poor people, or no? ML: The only discrimination was that, you know, when we went to school and stuff. JJ: When you were younger, just at school and stuff like that. ML: School. JJ: Okay. So that’s really -- the discrimination was that. ML: That’s it. But there’s always discrimination. There’s a lot of people that, you know, they put the Puerto Ricans down. And one told me, “Oh, Puerto Ricans are drug addicts.” And I stopped him, and I said, “Why do you say that? Drugs come from all over the world. You know?” Then he got a little bit -- and he said, “Where are you from?” [01:05:00] And I said, “I’m from Puerto Rico.” And he said, “Well, if you like it here so much, why don’t you go back?” But then, you know, I got a little bit -- I stopped. I calmed down, and he took off. But I was gonna tell him, “You gotta do some studying, because the Puerto Ricans are American.” They just don’t -- a lot of them don’t want to face it, but we are Americans, and we’re the only ones that didn’t have to pledge the flag. You know? Like take the Constitution or anything? We didn’t have to do that. 47 �JJ: You didn’t have to study for that. ML: We didn’t have to. JJ: Because we were born citizens. ML: We were born citizens. So I said to myself, What’s he talking about? He’s the DP, not me! You know? JJ: DP stands for what? ML: [Deported?]. JJ: [Deported?]. ML: [Deported?]. DP. That’s what they call ’em, DP. Yeah. But [01:06:00] we didn’t have to. So people from Europe and all that, they’re DPs. They’re calling us DPs, but we’re not, because we were automatically citizens. Everybody, like from Latin America, they have to pledge the flag, but we don’t. And I started thinking, [we’re the only ones?] from all the Latinos and all the people from Europe, all over the world, we’re the only ones, if you think about it. But it doesn’t make me any greater, because I love people. I don’t care what nationality they are. And I think that mostly the Puerto Rican people are like that. They like other people. And if you look into -- study, if you look into Puerto Rico, they got Blacks, they got blue eyes, they got tan, mulattos. And not all of them are -- they’re all different nationalities. [01:07:00] They got Irish. They got German. They got Mexican, Cuban. Name it. It’s mixed. So if you’re talking about against a Puerto Rican, you’re talking about practically everybody. You know? ’Cause we’re all mixed, different nationalities, ’cause a lotta people landed there in Puerto Rico from different countries. So don’t talk about a Puerto 48 �Rican, because you’re talking about yourself. We got Italian, Filipino, you name it. Right on. (laughter) You know? If you’re talking about -- this is what I’m thinking. You’re talking about a Puerto Rican, you’re talking about your own self, because that’s how the mixture is. Yeah? JJ: Okay. [01:08:00] What do you think we should add to this that we haven’t talked about that you want to? What’s the main thing you want to make sure that it gets in here? ML: The main thing? JJ: Yeah. ML: Unity. Let’s just unite instead of going against each other. JJ: Okay. So we don’t have any unity now? ML: No. There’s no unity. They’re still going against -- people going against people. You know, they’re not showing that love. You know? JJ: There used to be love, is that what you’re saying? ML: That they have never shown love for each other. JJ: So you’re saying the most important thing is that we gotta let people know about unity? ML: Unity. Unite and show love for each other, [01:09:00] instead of fighting against each other. You know? Or making comments. JJ: Like what? What kind of comments? What are you [talking about?]? ML: Well, the other day, there was one they had about -- it was all over the news about Puerto Rico -- about -- what are they called? About Humboldt Park? JJ: Oh, yeah. What’d they say about Humboldt Park? 49 �ML: Oh, that -- can you refresh me on that? Humboldt Park, about those -- it was a cake? M1: Yeah, the TipsyCake thing? Yeah. JJ: Oh, yeah. Yeah, they -- ML: They called Humboldt Park -- what? There was a word. M1: Humboldt crack (inaudible) cake, and -- ML: Humboldt crack. JJ: Yeah, crack, like crack cocaine or something? ML: Uh-huh. M1: Yeah. ML: So those are fighting words. JJ: They were calling -- saying that Puerto Ricans had crack cocaine, or something, or...? ML: No, they just called Humboldt Park, instead of calling it Humboldt Park, they called it Humboldt crack. JJ: [01:10:00] Humboldt crack? ML: Mm-hmm. JJ: And so why did that upset you? ML: It doesn’t upset me. I think they’re ignorant. I think they should be told. They should be told that we are Americans. We are Americans. Just like they consider themselves Americans, we are Americans. That’s all. And they shouldn’t go against us. Like I said, if they go against us, they’re going against their own people, because Puerto Rican is such a mixed group that -- they don’t 50 �know. And they don’t know this. They’re not educated, or maybe they don’t want to be educated, ’cause we have all colors. JJ: So unity. You want to make sure people know about unity. ML: Unity is important. [01:11:00] Unity and the talents that the Puerto Ricans have. They have a lot of talent. And they have two languages. Two languages is better than one. Two languages, two people. JJ: So we’re mixed, we’ve got two languages, and we need unity. What else do we need? What else do you think should be in here that’s important? ML: Love each other. Love one another. JJ: What do you want people to know about you, basically? ML: About me? JJ: Yeah. What type of person were you -- what type of person are you? Who are you? ML: Me? I love everybody. I love everybody, and I like people to -- [01:12:00] not to feel pain, to heal, because I used to work in the hospitals. So I like to feel empathy with them. Sympathy, yes, but empathy, put myself in their place. Like if they’re hurting, feel their pain, feel what they’re going through. And not putting them down. JJ: ’Cause yeah, you worked in a hospital, and so it [comes from being?] -- ML: Give them comfort, yes. JJ: Give them comfort and -- do you feel like people are put down or something when they are hurting, or...? ML: A lot of people get put down, and they don’t feel good about it. [01:13:00] You 51 �know? It makes you -- just like if you’ve been bullied. You know? A lot of people don’t feel good about it, and a lot of them -- a lot of times, that leads to suicide, or it leads somebody to, instead of quitting drinking, make them drink more, because you put them down. You know, they look for an escape if you put them down. But if you praise them, they feel better, and maybe it makes a change in their life. And also not being judgmental. It’s very important. To judge against people just because they did this, just because they did that, you judge against them and classify them for the rest of their life. No. People make changes. Give them an opportunity. JJ: [01:14:00] Do you feel that Puerto Ricans have been judged wrongly or not received opportunities, or where do you get that from, that you don’t want people to be judged, or give them an opportunity? ML: Well, I get that from even, you know, from -- mainly it’s from the home. It comes from your own home. Like if somebody judges you, call you a bad word, or whatever. So if somebody calls you a bad word, then you live on with that. You know, why am I this? Why do they call me this? And this and that, you know? But it could come from your own home, not necessarily from another human that’s not related to you. But it starts that way. People -- [01:15:00] you know, it starts from when you’re growing up. But if you feed ’em the good stuff, then they’ll, you know. It’s what you feed in their heads. If you tell ’em that they’re good, and they could do better, then that person is gonna do better. You know? Raise themself up. But if you put ’em down and say different things about them, bad things about them, that person is not gonna be loving, you know, have love 52 �in their heart. They’re gonna have hate. JJ: If you had to describe growing up in this area or in Lincoln Park -- you know, we’ll call it Lincoln Park, but -- or Lakeview, Lincoln Park or Lakeview -- if you had to describe it in a few sentences, what was it like living in Lincoln Park for you? In a few sentences. ML: It was -- living here was good. It gave [01:16:00] myself an opportunity to be educated as much as I get. I didn’t accomplish much, but I feel that I accomplished something. And I was able to work, work at good places. I worked at Saint Joseph. And I was given an opportunity. So if I had to do it again, I’d do it again, live in this area. It’s a very good area. It’s a rich area now, since the yuppies moved in, but it’s for the best. It’s not for the worst. Changes are for the best. And if it means cleaning up the streets and getting the bad stuff out, why not? That’s what I think. JJ: [01:17:00] Okay. (Spanish) [01:17:01] ML: (Spanish) [01:17:05] JJ: Okay. (Spanish) [01:17:06] ML: I think I said enough. I’ve been here about two hours. (laughs) JJ: I appreciate it. (break in audio) JJ: Okay. If you could give me your full name? ML: Married name or --? JJ: Married name and your -- you know, your name and your married name. ML: Before and after. 53 �JJ: Before and after, any way you want to do it. ML: (Spanish) [01:17:29] Martha Martinez. (Spanish) [01:17:35] Victor Lopez, (Spanish) [01:17:39] Martha Lopez. JJ: Okay. And (Spanish) [01:17:43] -- where -- we’ll do it bilingual, but you can -probably more in English, but we’ll do it bilingual. ML: Well, I’ll try. JJ: Okay. Whatever way you feel comfortable. But okay. So when did you come to Chicago? ML: I came [01:18:00] in 1958. JJ: Nineteen fifty-eight. And did you come straight from Puerto Rico? ML: Straight from Puerto Rico. JJ: And where did you come from? What town in Puerto Rico? ML: Arecibo, in Sabana Hoyos. JJ: Sabana Hoyos? Is that in the country? ML: (Spanish) [01:18:15 - 01:18:19] JJ: Okay. And so what about your parents? What kind of work did they do at that time over there? ML: (Spanish) [01:18:26 - 01:18:38]. JJ: Okay. So he cut sugarcane and that? Okay. And so what was the reason for you to come -- you came with both of your parents? ML: Well, I was nine and a half, and I came with both my parents and four brothers. JJ: And four brothers? Okay. So you were nine and a half. So did you go [01:19:00] to any school while you were over there? 54 �ML: Over there? Yes. JJ: Okay. What was school like over there? What was it like? Because you went to school here, too, so what was the difference? ML: Well, I went to school up to fifth grade. It was pretty good. We didn’t do any kindergarten, that’s for sure. JJ: There was no kindergarten? ML: No. JJ: So you said it was pretty good. What do you mean? Was there any difference between here and there, or...? ML: Well, we only spoke Spanish. They taught us little words like lápiz, pencil; pluma, pen. That’s about it, you know, little words. But when we came over here, it was total difference, because we had to conquer the language. We didn’t know any English at all. JJ: So you came over here. What school did you go to? ML: [01:20:00] I went to Lincoln School, located on Orchard and Geneva. JJ: On Geneva? Okay. In Lincoln Park? ML: Lincoln Park area, yeah. JJ: What they call the Lincoln Park area. ML: And I went to -- JJ: So what grade did you start there? ML: Gee. Well, they lowered me from fifth grade to second grade. JJ: From fifth grade to second grade. Why did they do that? ML: Yes. Also, my brothers were lowered. 55 �JJ: And why did they do that? ML: Because we had a language barrier. JJ: So it wasn’t because you weren’t at the level. It was just only because you -- ML: The language barrier. JJ: -- because of the language barrier. You couldn’t speak English that well. ML: At all. JJ: And so all your brothers, everybody was lowered, and you were lowered. ML: Every Hispanic -- well, I’m not saying every Hispanic. Everybody that came from Puerto Rico was lowered at that time that didn’t know the language. JJ: Where did you live? [01:21:00] You went to Lincoln. You lived in Lincoln Park, but where? ML: I used to live at Dickens and Larrabee. JJ: Oh, at Dickens and Larrabee? ML: Mm-hmm, right by Grant Hospital. JJ: Okay. What was the -- well, before we go into there, I see that you have some things here from your husband. Can you describe some of them, hold them up and describe them? ML: Oh, my husband was a Vietnam veteran. I married him in -- JJ: What was his name? ML: Victor Lopez. We got married in 1972. And he belonged to the Boricua Post. JJ: Actually, that was an organization that was, what, on North Avenue or something like that? ML: It’s still there. It still exists. 56 �JJ: It still exists there? ML: Yes. I don’t know the right address, but it’s still there. JJ: On North Avenue? ML: I believe so. [01:22:00] I believe so. I’m not really sure, because my husband passed, so I didn’t keep up with them. JJ: Right. Okay. So did you go to some of their activities, or...? ML: Some, and we went to the parade. JJ: What kind of activities did they have? ML: They’d just get together and talk about the war, and sort of reunite with each other so they could share what they went through at the war. JJ: Okay. (Spanish) [01:22:30]? ML: (Spanish) [01:22:33 - 01:22:36]. JJ: (Spanish) [01:22:36]. And it still exists. ML: Still exists. JJ: The Boricua Post 37, they call it? ML: Amvets 37. JJ: Okay. And what are some of the other things that you have? ML: I have some medals here. Second Field -- JJ: Okay. If you can put [01:23:00] them up for the camera so they can see them. ML: Okay. This is the Second Field badge. Those are the medals that he got when he went overseas in Vietnam. Whoops. This is for being in the service in Vietnam. It’s another one. JJ: Now you said recently he passed away, or when did he pass away? 57 �ML: He passed away in 2008, in 2008. It’s kinda hard for me to talk about it, ’cause it’s been recent. JJ: Yeah, it is kind of recent, yeah. ML: [01:24:00] This is for conduct. JJ: Okay, Conduct Medal, okay. ML: Conduct Medal. The ribbon was there, but I don’t know where it is. This is the Bronze Star. Bronze Star. JJ: So he was well decorated. ML: He was really proud of what he did, but except the war stays inside. They never leave the veteran, so they don’t know how to cope with reality when they come back. This is a Vietnam Campaign Medal. (pause) [01:25:00] (inaudible) (pause) National Defender Medal. (pause) Here’s the Purple Heart. JJ: Oh, the Purple Heart. Okay. So he -- ML: Got injured. JJ: He got injured, so he received a Purple Heart. ML: Yeah. He had, like, shrapnel in his body. JJ: Okay, that’s -- Victor [01:26:00] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). ML: His name is Victor. I lost the other one. And here’s a Silver Star medal. That’s a little picture of him when he was over there. JJ: Let me see if I can zoom in on that. Okay. There’s that. Okay. ML: And he also went to Waller. JJ: Waller High School, also in Lincoln Park. So he grew up in Lincoln Park also? ML: I believe so, yes. He grew up around this area. 58 �JJ: When did you meet him? ML: I met him in ’72. [01:27:00] I married him in ’72, same year. Ten months. JJ: And you met him at Waller, right, at the school, in Waller? ML: No, it was blind date. JJ: A blind date. (laughter) ML: No, I didn’t know him at school. I think he didn’t go all the way through school. Uh-huh. JJ: Okay. So you came in ’58, and you went to Lincoln School. And you lived on -what street did you say? ML: Dickens. JJ: Dickens and Larrabee. ML: And Larrabee. JJ: Right. Okay. And can you -- in 1958, can you describe the makeup of the neighborhood? Who lived there? What type of nationalities lived there? ML: In that neighborhood? JJ: In that area where you lived. ML: In that area, there was a lot of Hispanics lived around that area, but young kids, and not teenagers. [01:28:00] Mostly little kids, because that’s when everybody started coming from Puerto Rico around that time. JJ: Around ’58? ML: In the fifties they started coming. JJ: You know, ’cause they came in different waves, so there was a big wave around ’58 when you came? 59 �ML: Right, because our parents didn’t have jobs, so they’d come over to look for a better life for us. JJ: Were there people recruiting people in Puerto Rico, or no, you just came -everybody just sort of came? ML: Everybody just came, because we are -- automatically, we’re citizens, so nobody has to recruit us, you know. At least that’s one of the freedoms that we have, privileges. So no, we just came. My uncle [Willie?], he helped my father a lot, and his sister. [01:29:00] They came before my father did. JJ: So they were here already? ML: They were here already. JJ: Did they live in that same area, or...? ML: I believe so, yes, around this area. JJ: Do you remember visiting them? ML: More or less, yeah. I don’t remember exactly, but more or less. JJ: Because you were already like nine years old, so you kind of remember a lot of things at that time when you came. What was it like, the first day school? How did you -- how was that [for you?]? ML: Gee, I don’t remember the first day of school, but I remember going to school. And because I was Hispanic, we used to get beat up. JJ: What do you mean? ML: They used to beat us up, like -- every day, we had to run. We had to run home. JJ: Who would beat you up? ML: The other kids. 60 �JJ: Were they in a gang, or were they just -- ML: No, just kids going against us because we were -- I guess because we were Latinos. JJ: Do you know what nationality they were? [01:30:00] Just American? ML: Just American. Mm-hmm. JJ: And they just beat you up for no other reason, not because you were in a gang or -- ML: No. Oh, no. JJ: Just because you were Latinos. ML: Latinos. So I used to wait and -- JJ: And you actually never went into a gang, right? ML: No. No, no. JJ: Okay. Okay. ML: No, because my father was real strict. We actually didn’t know anything about gangs at that time. We were kids. JJ: So there were no real Spanish gangs or anything like that. ML: No, not around that area. JJ: Not around that time. ML: No. No. JJ: They came later, though. ML: Gangs came later when I went to Waller. That’s when I went. They’d have -- I don’t know if it’s Eagles or something? The Eagles? JJ: Yeah, yeah, the Latin Eagles, yeah. 61 �ML: There was always fights, but I used to go straight home. Whenever there was a fight, somebody would find out about it, and we would know. [01:31:00] Somehow we knew, and then we just went straight home, because they were gonna fight. JJ: And usually it was a fight between the Spanish gang -- ML: And the Blacks. JJ: And the Blacks, and the --? ML: Mainly the Blacks around that -- JJ: At that time they were fighting, Blacks and Spanish were fighting? ML: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. ML: In that area, yeah. JJ: Okay. Now, Larrabee and Dickens. So you were kind of -- your parents kept you in the house. And so what did you do, if you were in the house? I mean, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? ML: Oh, I would help my mother cook, and watch American Bandstands. JJ: That was a favorite show at that time. ML: Yeah, yeah. JJ: Okay. ML: The Mashed Potato and all that. Remember that? JJ: Okay, right. Mashed potatoes and -- ML: Do that dance. JJ: What were some of the other songs that were on at that time? 62 �ML: Gee, it’s been so long. JJ: But you were mashing potatoes. (laughs) ML: The Beatles came along. The Beatles. A lot of -- [01:32:00] The Beatles, um, the Shangri-Las, the -- I don’t remember most of the names, but there’s a lot of -the Temptations were around that time. And we just kept up with the songs, trying to learn the language. JJ: So you were sheltered, kind of, at home, but I mean, in school, did you have a lot of friends, or...? ML: In school? No, we didn’t have that many friends. Like I said, we had to run home, because we were afraid that we were gonna get beat up. JJ: Okay. So you -- ML: So I just went out to rescue my brothers. And I always had books in my hands, so I could beat them up with the books. JJ: Okay. Your brothers were younger, so you would protect them? ML: One was older, [Nicky?], [Nieves?], he’s older. And then three others were younger. JJ: So that [01:33:00] kept you tight as a family or something, protecting each other? ML: Sure, because we -- you know, to us, it was something different. It was like a jungle. You know? Something different. We had a language barrier, so we didn’t know. JJ: But you were Americans, so how did you feel that you’re an American and you’re being -- other Americans are -- ML: Well, when you’re a kid, you don’t know the difference. You don’t know if you’re 63 �American or not. You just know that you’re a kid. You know? JJ: And they’re gonna chase you, because you’re Spanish. ML: Right. But we didn’t even know it was because of that, but we just figured it out, that it was that. JJ: Okay. So you’re just walking to school, and all of a sudden, somebody starts chasing you? ML: Chasing us, beating us, or they’ll say, “I’m gonna get you when you go outside.” This white girl told me -- she was taller than me, and I looked at her, and she said, “I’m gonna get you.” And I said, “Okay.” So I went. [01:34:00] I confronted her. But I beat her up. And I was younger. Because when we grew up in Puerto Rico, we used to climb trees and all that, so we were fast, and run up and down the mountains. JJ: In Puerto Rico? ML: Yeah. The little hills and stuff. So we knew how to climb and run fast. So she thought she was picking, you know, on somebody that didn’t know, but that’s one thing. I was really, really fast running. So I beat her up, and then I took off. That was the end of that. She never bothered me anymore. JJ: Now, what about -- did you go to the show or anything like that, or the theater? What was the show? Did you go to -- any other, like, neighborhood activities, or (inaudible) your parents (inaudible) -- ML: My father used to take us [01:35:00] to the Lincoln Park area, to the Lincoln Park, and we used to go inside that little fountain by the flower area. JJ: By the flower house? By the flower house there? Okay. 64 �ML: Yeah, we used to get -- go inside the water and swim in there. But then they said, No more swimming, so we had to get out. Yeah. JJ: I think, actually, I swam there too. A lot of people swam there. ML: You did. I know you did. A lot of people did. Then they had those little ponies. JJ: Yeah, basically all it is, is a fountain, but it’s deep enough to swim if you’re a little kid. What were you saying about the ponies? ML: And they had little ponies, so they took pictures. My father used to take pictures. Yeah. It was all different for us, because, you know, we didn’t -- in Puerto Rico, we didn’t have that kind of activity, but we didn’t need it, because we were free. You know? We did whatever we wanted. JJ: In Puerto Rico, you’re saying? ML: Yeah. It was free. You didn’t [01:36:00] have to close the doors or anything. JJ: And here you had to close doors? ML: And here you had to close doors and everything. JJ: But why did you have to close doors? What -- ML: Over here, when you -- when we lived in an apartment here, we had to keep the doors closed and that. In Puerto Rico, you didn’t have to. It was free. Everybody was -- everybody knew each other, and it was friendly. We were not afraid of anybody or anything. JJ: But your father was more afraid when you came to the United States? ML: Over here? Well, he had to protect us. JJ: But he didn’t have to do that in Puerto Rico. ML: No. 65 �JJ: And the reason for protect-- did he give any reasons why he felt he had to protect you, or...? ML: No, he didn’t give us any reason, but we caught on fast. JJ: What was that? ML: We caught on that it was dangerous outside, and [01:37:00] there was a lot of different types of nationalities, so we caught on. JJ: And it was a big city too. ML: And it was a big city. So we caught on that there was danger out there, period. That was it. Because were pretty bright kids, although we didn’t know the language. We looked after each other. JJ: Now, did you have other family in Chicago? ML: At that time, yeah. Uncle Willie. JJ: You mentioned your uncle. ML: Uncle Willie was here, and my father’s sister, and let’s see. I believe two sisters. Two sisters. JJ: Do you know -- what are their names? ML: [Carmen Martinez?] and [Isabel Martinez?]. She has two daughters. Carmen didn’t have any kids. JJ: So what about for, like, holidays? [01:38:00] What holidays did you celebrate with your family? ML: Holidays we got together and cooked. My mother cooked arroz con gandules with lechon asado. Thanksgiving was pavo. And basically, arroz con gandules always goes with Spanish food. 66 �JJ: And so you’d visit each other and (inaudible)? ML: Yeah. JJ: Okay. ML: (removes glasses) Eyes are bothering me. JJ: Okay, that’s fine. And what about -- well, you mentioned you went to these activities at the Amvets place, but what about any birthdays parties or anything that you recall? Usually when you’re young, you like to go to parties. ML: Just the family. Little birthdays with the family. My uncle, [Rafael?], he had kids, so we went. That’s about it. Not too many parties. [01:39:00] My father was a religious person, so he kept us kind of inside mostly. JJ: When you say religious, what do you mean? Was he a -- what church? ML: He went to the Church of Christ. So he kept us straight. You know? He was a very good man. Can’t find another father like that for myself. And he really kept us straight. Not strict. He was lovable, but he was very, very straight on everything. He let us know. He explained everything, what was going on. JJ: So he took time and explained things. ML: Oh, yeah. JJ: Now, did he go to school at all? ML: Did he go back to school? JJ: How far did he go to school? ML: Oh, no. My father had like a second grade or so. JJ: Oh, second, that’s all? ML: Yeah. He was orphaned at eight [01:40:00] from his mother, and then his father 67 �took a different road, and so my grandfather raised -- helped raise my father, my mother’s father, because they’re cousins. So he helped raise my father. And there were like eight other kids. He helped raise some of them, not all of them, because they were scattered to different family. JJ: Do you remember the church that he went to here, where that was? ML: Yeah, the Church of Christ. JJ: United Church of Christ, or...? ML: It’s called the Church of Christ. JJ: The Church of Christ? ML: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. And that was located in Lincoln Park, or...? ML: No, that was located on Long and Division. JJ: Long and Division? So he went all the way there? ML: Right. The location now, [01:41:00] I don’t know where it is. JJ: Okay. What was -- inside Waller, we didn’t go too much into that, because -- ML: Inside Waller? JJ: Because now there’s more Spanish people moving in in the neighborhood, or no? This is ’58, or -- when you studied, there was very few Spanish people, right? ML: At Waller, there was a lot of Hispanic people. JJ: There were a lot of Hispanic? ML: I have the pictures there. Those were all Hispanics that graduated there. JJ: Okay. So 19--? 68 �ML: Sixty-eight. That’s when I graduated. JJ: Okay. So there was a lot of Hispanics. By 1968, there was a lot. ML: Oh, yeah. JJ: So was Lincoln Park -- were there a lot of Puerto Ricans in Lincoln Park at that time, or...? ML: Yes. This area had a lot of Hispanics. Uh-huh. JJ: Okay. But when you first arrived in ’58, were there a lot of Hispanics? ML: There were, but we didn’t go around -- you know, because my father was always taking care of us, so we didn’t [01:42:00] go around meeting them or anything. But there were a lot of Hispanics coming in, arriving. JJ: So how did you feel later when they started coming, when more Hispanics came in? Were you still afraid, or were you still sheltered? Was your father still sheltering you? ML: No, we still stayed sheltered, and we didn’t communicate or anything. We just kept living our life, our normal life. I wasn’t hanging around with this kid or that kid. No. We just went to school and came home, did our homework or whatever. JJ: What was the highest grade that you went to? Did you graduate from college, or...? ML: I went to fourth -- what is it, fourth grade high school -- it’s 12th grade. Then I went to Truman College for a nursing assistant. Basically, what I did was, I worked [01:43:00] throughout the hospitals. I worked at Saint Joseph Hospital for about nine and a half years. Thorek, I did about six months, took a training there for nursing. Never got the diploma, but I took the training there. And then 69 �Walther Memorial also, I did about eight and a half years there, physical therapy. At that time, we didn’t need any papers to do that job. Now you do. JJ: Certified papers, you mean? ML: Yeah, for physical therapy aide. So that was basically what I did. JJ: So you went right from Waller to the nursing. ML: Yes. JJ: Now, was that normal? Were other kids -- I thought there was a big, high dropout rate, or something like that. ML: Pardon me again? JJ: I thought there was a dropout rate, a high dropout -- people dropping out of school? ML: There was a high dropout. My husband happened to be one of them, because his father was [01:44:00] sick, so he had to go and find a job. So he dropped out. JJ: So what was the difference between you and them, because they dropped out and you didn’t drop out? ML: Because my mother and father, they both had jobs. They used to work at the candy factory where my uncle Willie, he was the foreman there. JJ: What candy factory was that? ML: Peerless Confection. Yep. It’s right around the -- was around the corner on Schubert. Schubert -- I believe it’s Schubert. Yeah. JJ: Okay. Is that south of Diversey or north of Diversey? ML: It’s Schubert and Lakewood, so it’s, what -- JJ: Probably north of Diversey, right? I’m not sure where Schubert is. 70 �ML: Diversey? South. South of Diversey. JJ: So it’s still in Lincoln Park or something like that? ML: Yeah, it’s right around the corner, but I don’t remember the correct address. Yeah, it’s in the Lincoln -- was. They sold it a couple years ago. JJ: [01:45:00] Oh, okay. So it was in the Lincoln Park neighborhood too. ML: Right. JJ: Okay. How many years did he work there? ML: My father? JJ: Yeah. ML: I believe he worked about 20 years. JJ: Twenty years there? And he was a -- just a laborer? ML: Candy maker. JJ: Candy maker. Okay. That was his title? ML: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. ML: And my mother was the candy packer. JJ: Now, did you ever go to -- oh, so she worked there too. She was at Peerless? ML: Yes. JJ: Okay. And how long did she work there. ML: Gee, I don’t really know how long, but maybe 8. Maybe 8 or 10 years, roughly. JJ: Okay. And that was the -- did your brothers and sisters -- I don’t recall. Did you say [01:46:00] you had -- how many brothers and sisters did you have? ML: Four brothers, no sisters. 71 �JJ: And one was older than you? ML: Nieves Martinez, changed his name to Nicky, because he didn’t like Nieves. He also went to Waller. JJ: He went to Waller too? ML: Yeah. He went to Waller. Then he went to college. And he became a teacher. JJ: Oh, he’s a teacher? ML: Yes. But he didn’t like it, so he went into selling insurance. JJ: Okay. And he didn’t like Nieves? Why wouldn’t he like to be that name? ML: Why he didn’t like that name? JJ: They call me Joe, too, so, I mean, it’s not -- (laughs) I’m just trying to find out why. ML: I don’t know. Maybe because people wouldn’t remember how to say the name or something. I don’t know [at all?]. All of a sudden, his name was changed to Nicky, and we kept that name. JJ: Okay, so he did it [01:47:00] more for other people, to make it easier on them -- ML: I believe so. JJ: -- to pronounce than -- yeah. ML: Right. JJ: Okay. That’s sort of why I used Joe, too, for a little while. ML: Okay, makes sense. JJ: Yeah, because people couldn’t say José. They couldn’t say José, yeah. ML: Well, I had to change my name, too. My name is Marta, and I had to put an H on my name, because they used to call me Maria, and they would always say that I 72 �was absent. JJ: At school? ML: At school. Yeah. One time they counted like eight absentees. “I called you. Where you been?” I said, “I’ve been here.” And she said, “No, Maria.” I said, “I’m not Maria. I’m Marta. You’re pronouncing my name wrong. I’m with a T, not a I.” So I said, Okay, this is not going to change anything by I telling the teacher. They’re not gonna change it. So I said, Well -- I got smart, and I put an H. So ever since, I put an H on [01:48:00] my name. But I’m really Marta. But I’m under -- my birth certificate’s under that, under Martha now. JJ: Now, did you have any children at all, or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? ML: No children. JJ: No children? Okay. Okay. The neighborhood was changing, in 1958, and then it started to change, like they started fixing up the houses and stuff like that. Do you remember --? ML: It didn’t change that fast. JJ: It didn’t change that fast? Okay. ML: No, it stayed like that for -- JJ: While you were growing up, it didn’t change. ML: No. Changes came after, like -- JJ: Any big things that were going on when you were growing up that you remember? Any big things that happened in the neighborhood or that you remember, memorable things for you? ML: Not to me. [01:49:00] I didn’t really see any -- you know, I didn’t see the 73 �changes, because I was always inside. So no, they kept us in. But I remember Lincoln Park area -- Lincoln area, where the Biograph is, that -- now there they made a big change. They started putting new buildings up and stuff in the Lincoln area. JJ: The Biograph, was that a local theater or something? ML: That was the local theater, and across the street was the Crest. JJ: Did you go there too? ML: Yes. Mm-hmm. JJ: So you would go to that theater. That was like the neighborhood theater? ML: More or less. And across the street was the Crest. They called it 3 Penny Cinema, also. JJ: Yeah, they called it later, yeah, 3 Penny Cinema. ML: Yeah, that’s where all the young kids used to meet, at the Biograph. I don’t know if you remember. JJ: Yeah, [01:50:00] I remember. I remember that theater. ML: A lot of -- that’s where they met, the teenagers. JJ: From Waller and that? ML: Yeah. They had dates, and they went there. JJ: And so you would go there with your date to -- ML: No, mainly I didn’t date much. We just went to -- you know, just watch a good movie or whatever. Also, my father would take us sometimes, so... JJ: So you would go there too. ML: Right. 74 �JJ: (inaudible) And what were the stores? Where did you shop at? You know, because you said arroz con gandules. Where would you go buy that stuff? ML: My father used to go buy at the Spanish store, but I don’t remember the Spanish stores then. But I remember they had a -- one called [El Grito?] on Wrightwood. El Grito. Wrightwood and Lill? Around there. Was it Wrightwood? No. [01:51:00] Halsted. On Halsted. JJ: On Halsted by Wrightwood? ML: Right around there. They had a Spanish store called El Grito. We would shop there. Then there was another one, a Cuban store, on Sheffield. What’s the name of that? I forgot the name of that one. I think my aunt knows, but she’s not here now. But anyway, that’s where he basically shopped. We used to live in Cabrini-Green. JJ: Okay. Tell me about it. ML: Yeah. Back in the sixties, maybe ’63 or so. JJ: Oh, so from Larrabee and Dickens -- ML: Sixty-three, ’64. JJ: -- you went to Cabrini-Green? ML: I believe so. JJ: Was that the Cabrini-Green that was at Halsted and Division -- ML: Yes. JJ: -- right near the -- they called it the white project (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- ML: Yeah. 75 �JJ: -- by the color of the building. ML: The white projects. JJ: And what do you remember about that? ML: I went to Schiller [01:52:00] School. JJ: Schiller School? ML: Yeah. They used to run us home also. JJ: That was by Old Town, right, Schiller School? ML: Right. JJ: And they used to -- who used to run you there? ML: The kids. JJ: Now, these were not white kids, because they (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- ML: No, Black kids. Very -- JJ: This is the projects. This is the projects. ML: Right. JJ: So first you were being run home by white kids, and then you were being run home by Black kids. ML: Right. JJ: Okay. Because you lived in Cabrini-Green, in the project that was -- I recall it was mainly a lot of Puerto Ricans used to live there, there in the white project. So you got chased. But what other things do you remember there? I mean, that must have been -- were you on a top floor, or...? ML: We were on the eighth floor. The elevator stunk, so -- like they used to urinate in them. Who knows? Maybe they did a bowel movement too, but I don’t 76 �remember [01:53:00] that. But I know it stunk. So we had to run up the stairs to the eighth floor, and run down, because we were afraid to take the elevator. You don’t know who you were gonna meet, so we ran fast up and down, every time. It was a jungle there. And then I remember my father. Somebody threw -- some kid or somebody threw a rock and got him on the head. My brother went to Cooley High, and they set his hair on fire, my brother Nick, Nieves. JJ: Why did they set his hair on fire? I mean, was it -- ML: Maybe the guys were jealous because the girls liked him, the Black girls liked him. Who knows? I know they used to like him, so it could have been that. JJ: But there was trouble there -- ML: It’s a racial thing. JJ: It was a racial thing? ML: [01:54:00] Uh-huh. JJ: But that building, didn’t you feel at all comfortable? Did they have a lot more Spanish people in that building, or...? ML: Yeah, there was a lady named [Julia?]. We used to go visit her there. But we didn’t like it, because there was a little girl that got killed there. They threw -- you know when they have the milk gallons, the gallons of milk that are glass? And from way up on -- I think it was the 11th or 12th floor, they threw a gallon of milk, empty gallon, and they threw it on top of her head, and it killed her. So we didn’t like it there at all. JJ: So why did you live there? I mean, because you went from -- ML: Because it was -- I guess my father was looking for a bigger place. It was brand 77 �new. But he didn’t know. He didn’t know anything about the area. JJ: So at that time, it was brand new. ML: [01:55:00] Brand new. JJ: But it was part of the government housing. ML: Right. JJ: So you signed an application for the government housing? ML: I believe so. Then, yeah. JJ: And then they gave him that. ML: But he got off -- we lasted there like a year. That was it. JJ: And where did you go -- and so how long did you live there? ML: Like a year. JJ: A year? Okay. And then you moved -- ML: Came back to Lincoln Park area. JJ: Where? ML: We lived by Webster and Lincoln. JJ: Webster and Lincoln? Okay. ML: Then we lived by Lincoln and Wrightwood. JJ: Okay, right there. And then just -- you stayed, kind of, on Lincoln Avenue. ML: Right. Then my father bought a building right over here on this street, on Magnolia, 2633. That was his building. So he started progressing, working hard but [01:56:00] progressing a little bit. JJ: What year was that? ML: That he bought the building? 78 �JJ: Broken iron? Did you say broken iron? ML: No, working. JJ: Working hard. Working hard. Okay. In the candy factory (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). ML: In the candy factory. JJ: And he was able to buy the house. ML: Right. JJ: And that, kind of, borders Lakeview and Lincoln Park, right, the two neighborhoods? ML: Yes, it does. JJ: It’s, like, right at the edge of the -- ML: Right at the edge. I don’t know if this is -- they call it Lakeview now or Lincoln Park. I have no idea. JJ: I think this is probably Lakeview here, ’cause it’s -- well, no, no, no. It’s south of University, so it’s still Lincoln Park. ML: It’s still Lincoln Park? JJ: It’s still Lincoln Park, yeah, south of University. University’s the dividing line. ML: So I live in Lakeview area, North Center. JJ: Oh, this is Lincoln Park. You were living here. ML: No, I live now at North Center, Lakeview area. JJ: Oh, okay, you live now in Lakeview. Okay. All right. So he bought the house, and -- ML: Nineteen sixty-seven. 79 �JJ: But [01:57:00] you don’t know how much he paid for it then? ML: Eighteen thousand. JJ: Eighteen thousand. Okay. For two stories, or...? ML: Two stories and a English basement. JJ: English basement? Okay. ML: Mm-hmm, half and half. JJ: Okay. And you lived there most of your life after that, or...? ML: I lived there till 1972, when I got married. JJ: Okay. But he stayed living there? ML: Yeah, he stayed there till ’78. Then they left for Puerto Rico, 1978. JJ: So you didn’t see the changes, because you were away from the lake and away from downtown, so you didn’t see the changes in the rest of Lincoln Park. Like Halsted and Armitage was changing, but you didn’t see that, ’cause Halsted and Armitage, wasn’t that a center, or Halsted and Dickens, [01:58:00] or something like that? Was that not a center for the -- what was the center for -- ML: I seen the -- yeah, when they started building buildings, I started seeing new buildings coming up. When I went to Waller, I remember it was all a lot of old houses, old buildings. We used to go, and they had Spanish little shops. JJ: A lot of Spanish stores? ML: Yeah. Little restaurants. There was a little Spanish restaurant we used to go to by Halsted. JJ: Halsted and Armitage? ML: And Armitage, yeah, and the little hotdog stand. Remember that? 80 �JJ: Right, on Halsted and Dickens. ML: Yeah. Those people left. They’re in Florida. JJ: Oh, they’re in Florida? ML: We made it -- yeah. One time we went to visit, and we saw them. We bought some hot dogs there. They were good, weren’t they? (laughs) JJ: Oh, yeah. (inaudible) Okay. [01:59:00] So there was a bunch of little Spanish stores around there, because I remember -- well, you know, there was a lot of tall buildings right there in Halsted and Armitage, around that part, where the bank is now. There’s a lot of [stuff like that?]. Okay, now, 1972. Did you hear at all about the Young Lords at all, or no? ML: I heard about the Young Lords at the -- on the news. On the news. And I heard that they helped a lot of people. JJ: At that time? I mean, at first it was -- because, you know, it was a gang before. So how did you think about them when they came out in the news? What did you think about it, as being a Puerto Rican immigrant and everything (inaudible)? ML: See, we didn’t -- JJ: (Spanish) [01:59:52]. ML: We didn’t keep up with the gangs or anything. All I know -- what I know is that [02:00:00] gangs was, like, territorial. JJ: Okay. At that time? ML: At that time. And I don’t know if it still is. JJ: Well, at that time, they were territorial. What do you mean by territorial? ML: Well, you know, they couldn’t cross each other. That’s what I think. 81 �JJ: So they had certain territory. ML: Right. JJ: And you couldn’t go past that territory, and if you did, you could get beat up if -you know, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). ML: Beat up, and -- but at that time, they didn’t use guns. JJ: Right. It was more sticks, bottles, and knives, [and things?]. ML: Right. So we were not afraid, because at least we had somebody fighting for us. You know? Because -- JJ: Even the gang, you were not afraid of? ML: No, because they were helping us in a sense, because they were territorial. You know? We didn’t hang around with them, but -- JJ: But you knew they weren’t going to attack you. ML: They were not going to attack us. JJ: Because they were Puerto Rican, that gang. ML: Right. JJ: [02:01:00] So they weren’t going to attack you. And at that time, they did protect Puerto Ricans (inaudible)? ML: Right. JJ: Okay. Later on, of course, they got into the drugs, so they attacked Puerto Ricans too. ML: Yeah, that was the Division area or something. I think that’s where the drugs came in. JJ: But in Lincoln Park, the gangs were territorial at that time? 82 �ML: Right. Mm-hmm. JJ: And so even though you weren’t in a gang, (inaudible) you’re saying? ML: Yeah, we -- JJ: I don’t want to put words in your mouth. (laughs) ML: We were not in the gangs, but we were not afraid. You know? JJ: Even though you were a woman? ML: Right. JJ: You were not afraid that they were going to attack you (inaudible)? ML: No, because definitely they were not gonna attack us. We had some kind of protection, you know? JJ: Right, right. And you knew some of these people from Waller, too, right? ML: From the gangs? JJ: Yeah. Did you know some of them? ML: Yeah, some of the guys. JJ: So they weren’t really any -- ML: They had sweaters. JJ: They all had sweaters? ML: They had sweaters made. JJ: What kind of sweater? How did they look? ML: [02:02:00] With the name, the gang name. JJ: Okay. So all the different gangs had sweaters? ML: Uh-huh. JJ: Okay. Black sweaters with stripes, is that what you’re saying? 83 �ML: Yeah, or purple, purple with black. JJ: Purple and black? That was the Young Lords. ML: The Young Lords. Yeah, that’s how we knew. END OF VIDEO FILE 84 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c06dca92da0ee02a07f001d45bb5b2a1.mp4 25ccb37bda49e949c387184741fbcc2f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Martha López vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Martha López creció en el vecindario de Lincoln Park y recuerda como la comunidad puertorriqueña prospera allí, especialmente en los jóvenes con grupos como Caballeros de San Juan y los Young Lords. También recuerda como fue atacada “por los blancos y morenos” quien vivía en otras partes del “Old Town” en Lincoln Park. Chicago era una ciudad muy segregado en los 1950 y 1960 y Lincoln Park no era diferente. Señora López recuerda que no tenía miedo de pelear con nadie cuando se enfrentaron con ella, y tuvo que tirar unos golpes. Pero ella nunca fue parte de una ganga. López atendió Arnold Elementary y luego Waller High school. Su esposo es un veterano miliario condecorado. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Lopez_Martha Title A name given to the resource Martha López video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource López, Martha Description An account of the resource Martha López grew up in Chicago’s Lincoln Park neighborhood and recalls the thriving Puerto Rican community there, especially the youth groups, Caballeros de San Juan, and the Young Lords. She also recalls being attacked “from the whites and the blacks” who lived in different parts of the segregated Old Town and Lincoln Park neighborhoods. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-30 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1ed01bfbe605891a68ad1aeba90b1145.pdf 1eafe5c58de7853c47e1e983bc757f0d PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Antonio López Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/11/2012 Biography and Description Antonio López grew up in the Logan Square Neighborhood of Chicago and heard about the Young Lords early in life, as his parents are activists. Mr. López is also active in various projects and community organizations. He is of Mexican descent and Logan Square is currently a prime real estate target for developers, who continue to prey on Latinos and the poor, and are supported by city hall and their housing Master Plan. In fact it is not hard to locate many of these developers who readily finance machine loyalists and who have sat and still sit on the many city boards. Mr. López ‘s parents were connected to the land grant struggles in New Mexico that were being led by Reis López Tijerina. Mr. Tijerina was born on September 21, 1926 near Falls City, Texas. He is preacher who founded the Alianza Federal de Pueblos Libres (Federal Alliance of Land Grants) in New Mexico. He is widely credited as launching the early Chicano Civil Rights Movement, although Mr. Tijerina prefers the term “Indo Hispano Movement” because the word “Chicano” can also divide Mexicans. At the time of this oral history, Mr. López was completing his doctoral studies in the Department of History at the University of Texas, El Paso. His doctoral dissertation focuses on the Rainbow Coalition, which originally began with Chairman Fred Hampton and included the Young Patriots and Young Lords. Mr. López has voluntarily assisted the Young Lords on various projects beyond his dissertation. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Antonio, if you can tell me your name and date of birth. ANTONIO LOPEZ: So, my name is Antonio Reyes Lopez. I was born on July 21, 1980. I was actually born in Gary, Indiana and then raised in Chicago, Illinois. JJ: In 1980? AL: Yeah, I was born in 1980. My folks were steelworkers. Actually, my family is from New Mexico. JJ: They were steelworkers there? AL: Well, they weren’t steelworkers in New Mexico. My dad was actually a migrant worker, a student. My mom was a farm worker too. They came from rural families in New Mexico. And then, like a lot of people, looked for work in the steel mills at that time and migrated from New Mexico to Gary in the late ’70s and then worked in the steel mills together. JJ: Did a lot of people migrated at that time to the steel mills? AL: Yeah, there was a lot of people that -- well, I don’t know if too many people from New Mexico, but I think in general for years and years and decades, [00:01:00] the steel mills and the jobs here in Chicago have attracted a lot of people. But also the politics of steelworkers at that time was really hot. So my folks are actually movement people, very much activists. And so, to be there in the steel mills was kind of a place to be. So, they went and worked there, of course, until that industry kind of collapsed in the mid ’80s and that’s when my family moved to Chicago. 1 �JJ: Okay, but did they go there to organize, or did they just go there to work? AL: I think they went there to organize. JJ: But they were involved in -- AL: Yeah, they were involved in some of the politics of that era. So, as you know, a lot of the politics was like -- a lot of people had done the community work. But that got kind of repressed. So, there was a lot of movement towards going back to the point of production and doing work, really the working class organizing at the point of production. [00:02:00] So, during the late ’70s, really steelworkers were very much at the forefront of a lot of that kind of politics, a lot of that militant revolutionary politics particularly across race, coming together in the class struggles. JJ: So, were there union organizers? Were they union? AL: Yeah, they became part of the union, but I think they were more -- JJ: What union? AL: I think they were with the -- what is it, the -- oh man, I’m going to forget right now. JJ: Some kind of steel. AL: U.S. Steel. It was the U.S. Steelworkers. Yeah, they were working at U.S. Steel and they were involved with the union. And also, Gary’s a Black community, so they were really involved in kind of doing that work. So, part of it was also implicated in the history of my family being -- my dad particularly being pretty much a revolutionary in New Mexico and then having to get out of New Mexico because shit got crazy. 2 �JJ: Let’s talk a little bit about New Mexico. So, who’s the revolutionary there? Was that connected to [00:03:00] Reies López? AL: Yeah. I mean, Reies was very active a little bit earlier than my dad. My dad’s a little younger than Reies. But definitely involved with the Chicano movement. My dad was very much at the forefront. He actually founded Chicano Studies at the University of New Mexico in the ’60s. JJ: What was your dad’s name? AL: My dad’s name is [Ezequiel Lopez, Ezequiel Antonio Lopez?]. My father was from -- JJ: And your mom’s name? AL: My mom’s name is [Esther Lopez?]. My father comes from the villages, though, that Reies was organizing in the ’50s. So, my dad is from a village called Sena, New Mexico, and Sena, New Mexico is a rural mountain community. I mean, these are really poor people who lost the land back really when the U.S. came in and conquered New Mexico. So, there’s a history of colonialism, history of conquest that goes way back with my family. JJ: So, was that the land grants? Was that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? AL: Yes, that’s all of that struggle [00:04:00] that Reies then went into and entered into that struggle in the ’50s basically. That’s where my dad’s side of the family is from. JJ: I’m just kind of going back a little bit. (break in recording) 3 �AL: -- against not only the capitalists and the owning class here in Chicago, but it was also struggling against over political organizations at the community level who were saying we should follow a race program, we should follow a racial program. So, it’s kind of in the middle of that. It’s struggling against -- that’s the way I see it. I see it as saying, look, that’s important. It’s important that we have pride. It’s important that we love our people. But we’ve got to get to the class struggle, and that’s why the community service programs were so important because they were educating people on how important the politics was, that you have a state that doesn’t meet the needs, that actually thrives on poverty, thrives on despair in the city of Chicago. JJ: So, you said we’ve got to get to the class struggle. [00:05:00] Can you explain? AL: Yeah. One of the concepts I try to introduce in my project is called a flexible hybridity is what I call it. That’s like an academic term. See, I don’t think the Black Panthers and the Young Lords -- you can correct me if I’m wrong. But it wasn’t about saying, “We’re going to form this alliance. And all the sudden now we’re going to dissolve being Puerto Rican or dissolve being Black or dissolve being Southern white.” So, it wasn’t like this coalition where you come and now you’re this artificial new unit. It was saying, “No,” it was saying “We still love being Puerto Rican, Mexicano, Black. We’re Brown and proud. We’re Black and proud. We’re Southern white and proud. White power, Black power, Red power. Power to everybody.” Right? But it was also saying at a certain point we’ve got to come together as a working class in a class struggle. So, that flexibility to be able to say we can come together and defend Puerto Rican independence and 4 �defend the Chicano movement and Aztlán, defend Black power, defend [00:06:00] Black people but yet come together in a class struggle. That flexibility, I think, is very important. It makes the original Rainbow Coalition different. A lot of people think you form a coalition, it’s just like a new thing and all the sudden you’re a new -- it wasn’t about being a new organization. That’s what I think people don’t understand. That’s why I try to highlight that there wasn’t a headquarters, there wasn’t a Rainbow Coalition headquarters. It was basically like you’ve told me you handle your business and your neighborhood and your people. We’re handling ours, you’re handling yours, and we come together on the class politics, on the revolutionary politics. And I think that’s a really important lesson that people have not really grasped yet. JJ: So, you’re trying to get into class politics [being?] common interest. AL: Yeah. And you build in your community the class struggle in your community. You know what I mean? You engage the -- because we’ve got a -- JJ: Is that what you’re (inaudible)? AL: Yeah. What I’m saying is I think that’s just a different vision of solidarity than what people have right now. When they think of solidarity, it’s like, “Oh, let me go to Mexico and go do work over there.” No, do work in your neighborhood. [00:07:00] Do work in your community. You know what I mean? Build a class consciousness in your space, wherever you’re at. JJ: What is class consciousness? What does it mean to you? What does it mean to you? 5 �AL: Yeah. So, what I talk a lot about a lot -- and this is really what the project or the main research question is -- how do people develop a political consciousness of class struggle? Where does it come from? Where do you develop that? Do you develop it from leaders telling you that this is what you’ve got to think? Do you develop it from reading Mao or reading Frantz Fanon? What I write about -- what I try to argue is that actually a class consciousness or a political consciousness comes from what you experience and what you live and what you understand in the city of Chicago, right? So, a class consciousness particularly is an understanding that there is a political struggle between the working class and the owning class. There is an antagonistic -- that struggle cannot be reconciled. You can’t have [00:08:00] an amicable relationship between business owners and workers. And it’s because one side is trying to exploit, rob, make as much money off they can from people from exploiting their production, and the other side are the workers who are being exploited. And so, any time you have an exploiter and exploited contradiction, you can’t reconcile that contradiction. So, how do you develop a consciousness of that? Now, that’s a class struggle. But we know that people aren’t just workers and owners. They’re Puerto Ricans. They’re Mexicanos. They’re Black folks. They’re Southern whites. They’re whoever they are, people from the Middle East, wherever they come from. So, how do you come from that position of saying, “I’m a Chicano,” and having a real hardcore identity about that -- say, “I love my people” -- to then say, “But you know what? There’s an important class struggle at play that affects everybody.” Not only does it affect everybody in Chicago, it’s everybody in the world. It’s a global 6 �struggle because imperialism went around the world. They went global. [00:09:00] They went global, right? The capitalists had to go global in order to save capitalism some time ago. So, when you embrace that class struggle aspect, you connect with everybody around the world. You connect globally because that struggle is in play everywhere. So, how do you develop that consciousness? How do you develop the consciousness for class struggle? JJ: So, are you saying that you’re connecting to struggles that are involved all over the world? AL: Yeah, you can understand it. Once you embrace -- and like I said, it doesn’t mean you have to relinquish who you are and what you -- your love and your pride for your people or where you’re from. But when you embrace a class consciousness, you’re able to understand what the politics is in other places of the world because there’s business owners and workers everywhere. And so, you can understand what -- it gives you the key into understanding the dynamics of oppression in other places in the world. And therefore, you can connect as oppressed peoples. [00:10:00] JJ: So, as oppressed peoples -- so, you’re saying like in Mexico there’s the struggle between the rich and the poor and in Puerto Rico there’s the same struggle. AL: Yeah, there’s a struggle between the rich and the poor. JJ: And so, you’re saying that these people who are poor are connecting with the poor in each country. AL: Yeah, so what happens is that -- JJ: But they also have their own countries. 7 �AL: So, there’s an issue where you can connect. But what I’m more interested in and what I think the original Rainbow Coalition is important is because if you only say, “Man, I’m Mexican, so I only think about Mexicans,” that race, that idea, that border -- it blocks you from recognizing that you have something in common and a shared experience with a Puerto Rican. We have all these divisions between Mexicans and Puerto Ricans in Chicago, which is a false antagonistic relationship. JJ: What was this called? At that time, we had the Rainbow of Coalition. Do you remember (inaudible)? [00:11:00] AL: Yeah. I think one of the things that I try to -- JJ: I mean, some of it’s just nationalistic. AL: Yeah, it was called pork chop nationalism. It was called cultural nationalism. That’s what you’re looking at. If you’re really nationalistic, you’re not able to get to the internationalism. So, I think the original Rainbow Coalition -- JJ: (inaudible) a term that came out of that when (inaudible). AL: And that’s why I think if you look at -- you can look at a lot of people. JJ: The difference between progressive nationalism and cultural nationalism. AL: Exactly, cultural nationalism versus revolutionary nationalism. It’s an important distinction to make. But I think the thing is -- we have a lot of (inaudible) particularly young people my age -- JJ: It was being made by the Rainbow Coalition. AL: That’s right. JJ: It’s part of the concept that (inaudible). 8 �AL: That was one of the main -- why it’s so politically significant because it was introducing -- and that’s what I’m saying [how flexible?]. You could have the revolutionary nationalism and the [00:12:00] internationalism, the class struggle aspects of it. JJ: You were saying it was (inaudible) are. AL: Yeah, exactly. It’s all right. But see, a lot of people think nowadays think, “All I got to do is be proud and represent my people and carry a big flag and be down for my people.” And it’s not about that because there are some of your people who are capitalists, who are exploiting you, who are taking advantage of you, and who are creating more oppression. And that’s who we should be in struggle with too. JJ: And divisions, who are creating more divisions for the benefit of capitalism. AL: That’s right. That’s right. That’s right. So, we can look at lot of people, but Fred Hampton always kind of was so good at expressing it. He says you can’t fight fire with fire. You’ve got to fight fire with water. And if you think about racism, you might feel a lot of racial oppression. But you can’t fight racial oppression by saying, “I’m only down for my race.” There aren’t even no races anyway. But you might say, “I’m only down for my people.” You’re fighting fire with fire. What you have to do is fight -- as he said, you have to fight racism with solidarity. You have to fight racism with the class struggle. [00:13:00] You fight capitalism with socialism. And that was the essence really with the Rainbow Coalition. But it was a solidarity that wasn’t about making this new artificial organization or a new people. It was about saying, “Look, do real work, community service work in your 9 �communities. And if you do that and we understand you’re not racist, we understand you’re doing important work and we come together, then we can meet and then we can build.” JJ: So, it wasn’t an organization. What do you think it was? AL: Oh no, I think it was an alliance, a coalition. I think it does -- it meets all the standards of a coalition. It’s like one Panther said, we have each other’s back. And I think that’s what it was. You had each other’s back. The Young Lords supported people. They worked together. They helped each other. They embraced the 10 point platform of the Black Panther Party. The did the community service program. The Young Lords were -- y’all came from the neighborhoods. Who knew Lincoln Park better than the Young Lords? Nobody. [00:14:00] The Black Panthers didn’t know Lincoln Park, but you guys knew. So, I think that was part of the genius of the Panther Party too was to not go in and try to say, “We know your neighborhood more than you know it.” It was to say, “No, you know, organize your neighborhood, man. Let’s get it together. Let me just give you a little bit of this Panther politics.” The way I write about it in my dissertation is that the Young Lords and the Young Patriots were already prepared to embrace that politics. They didn’t need the Panther Party to come in and necessarily teach them too much or manipulate them or -- if you grew up in Lincoln Park, you saw police brutality, you saw poverty, you saw all these kinds of things going on. You come from Puerto Rico, you know what’s going on in Puerto Rico. So, when the Panthers come and say it’s a class struggle, people -the Young Lords say, “Oh, yeah. We see that. I see what you’re saying. Let’s do 10 �this.” That’s what it was. You didn’t need to be -- and I think that’s where the struggle with other academics is who try to kind of represent things in a different light. [00:15:00] JJ: Because it wasn’t clear (inaudible) a lot of members what you’re discussing right now. It was clear among the leadership, but it wasn’t really clear -- you know, we were evolving at that time so to speak. AL: So, I think it’s important to think of the Rainbow Coalition. We can think about it as an alliance, as an coalition. But I think it’s important to think about it as a political tactic. That’s an important thing to think about, to think about it as saying, “We’re going to form this because we have an enemy who thrives off of these racial divisions, who thrives off of our people wanting to be race leaders or have this cultural nationalism.” So, the original Rainbow Coalition was a political tactic to undermine that, to strike against that and to really teach the people that it’s a class struggle. JJ: What it wasn’t for sure was an organization. It was not an organization. [00:16:00] Because there’s confusion today among people. They think it was an organization. It was just like you said. People were already working in their (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). And they came together and it was more of an alliance, or a tactic. AL: And I think when you talk about -- this was really something that developed among the political leadership of each organization is important, because you guys, the rank and file members were busy in the breakfast for children program. They were busy selling newspapers. They were busy fighting with landlords or 11 �fighting with business owners or whatever it is that they’re doing. A lot of times, when you’re doing that work, you don’t have a lot of time -JJ: And just discussing -- there’s a lot of discussion (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) renaissance. AL: Yeah, going to political education meetings. That’s a lot of time you’re putting in. So, a lot of people that -- maybe they didn’t even have a chance to really come together on that level. But they knew that the Young Lords had each other’s back and they knew that -- JJ: It was understood. AL: Yeah, it was understood, it was understood. JJ: It wasn’t clearly articulated, but it was understood. AL: So, and this is where I think we’ve got to deal with these liberal concepts of a coalition and solidarity, because [00:17:00] there’s this liberal notion of, “Oh, people got together and they were like” -- no, it wasn’t like that. People had hard work to do and every day they had to get up early as hell and put in work. It wasn’t -- so, we had to kind of work against that liberal notion of coalitions and solidarity work. JJ: You just mentioned something that was interesting. What about -- because it was also work. The coalition was work. It was about raising people’s consciousness, right? And so, as a lot of people thought that, okay, I’m a Marxist-Leninist, why isn’t everybody in a Marxist-Leninist? What the Rainbow Coalition was saying was everybody is not that. So, everybody doesn’t understand the class consciousness, so we have work to do. 12 �AL: Yeah, I think so. JJ: I mean, is that what you found out? AL: Oh yeah, I think that’s a really important point because -- I would put it like this. [00:18:00] One of the things that -- the way that I write about it is that I think you can think about the Rainbow Coalition alongside thinking about how important the breakfast for children programs were or the health centers or the legal service programs were. It was one of the most effective political tactics. See, the community service programs -- in my mind, it was a tactic to be able to educate people. In other words, if we’re feeding you, there’s somebody who’s not feeding you. If we’re caring for your health and your welfare and your education, it’s because this country, this society, this state is not caring for your health. So, it was a way to educate people. It was a tactic that was allowed -- that provided people the way to interact with the community but also to educate them about what -- who really cares for you. And so, in that -- and so, people -- the Panthers and the Young Lords talk about people learn through what? They learn through observation and participation. So, through the community service programs, people could observe and participate, and that’s how you learn politics. So, there was very much [00:19:00] an educational aspect to the community service program. JJ: And you’re by saying by interacting (inaudible) connecting to the community. AL: Right. Which is why the politicians, the police always were trying to close those institutions down. Because it was a point of interaction. It was a point of education. And also, it was a point -- and this is what I write about in my 13 �dissertation. Those were the most important tactics that brought legitimacy to the Young Lords, the Black Panthers, the Young Patriots, and also the original Rainbow Coalition. When you’re feeding people and caring for the elderly and doing these things, then the people see. “Man, okay, they’re not gangsters and only gang bangers. These are people from our neighborhood who love us, care for us, and are putting our lives on the line for us.” And it teaches them. They see it. They observe it. And then, they’re with it. So, the legitimacy aspect was really important. That’s why all the stuff with the police gets too hard, right, because the police are the police. But once you’re getting that real legitimacy in the communities and building with people in the communities, that gets [00:20:00] dangerous. Because, see, [they always deal with you?] when they’re dealing with you. You’re going to go fight the police, they’ll deal with you all day. But once you get that legitimacy with the community, that’s dangerous. JJ: Who were -- can you give me some of the names of the people that you interviewed for your dissertation? AL: Sure, sure, sure. Yeah, I think this one of the things where I hope the project goes and I can do more interviews with people. I was able to talk with a few of the Panthers, people like Lynn French. I was also able to talk with one of the women who was in the apartment when Chairman Fred Hampton was killed. JJ: So, Lynn French was -- what was her -- AL: Lynn French was part of the -- I think she -- although this wasn’t like clearly defined. But she was, I think, the labor minister at one point. Labor minister, I believe. But that wasn’t -- maybe different. 14 �JJ: Everybody did a whole lot of different things. AL: Yeah, there was a lot of different titles. But she was a very important woman, female Panther. The Black Panthers of Chicago [00:21:00] had a lot of really great women leaders and workers. JJ: And you mentioned some others. AL: At that time, her name was Brenda Harris. She was more of a rank and file member. But she was in the apartment when Fred Hampton was killed, and she was also shot during that incident. So, I was able to -- she was shot by the Chicago police during that incident. I was able to interview her. JJ: It was (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) talk with her. AL: It was amazing to talk with her. It’s amazing to talk to all of these activists. She was really amazing because I think she -- I really felt the spirit of her, of how that consciousness that the Panthers had and how it still survives and it still exists. So, she talked a lot about -- I talked to her about her -- she grew up in Lawndale and went to schools there. So, she talked about how bad the schools were and how they were really racist and how -- JJ: Lawndale is the West Side? AL: Yeah, the West Side. JJ: Where the -- AL: Yeah, she grew up there. JJ: She came from (inaudible). 15 �AL: Yeah, she grew up in that community. [00:22:00] One of the best parts of her interview too -- she used to sell newspapers and she used to talk about how the people -- JJ: She’s still alive? AL: Yeah, she’s still alive. And she talked about how when she was selling newspapers that people recognized her. They liked her. They would feed her. So, she talked a lot about that legitimacy again that was built there and how even at one point there was a raid. The police raided the Panther office. I think it was in June actually of 1969. They had raided it three times, but one of them, they set a fire up in the headquarters. And many of the people there in the community in the West Side had learned to love the Panther Party. They actually ran up there and put the fire out themselves. There was this guy that had a fancy leather jacket and he was even beating the fire with his leather jacket. You don’t do that if you don’t have any love and care for that organization. You know what I mean? So, she really was able to break it down on how there was really this [00:23:00] deep connections that were beginning to be build. I think that’s important. I think we can’t romanticize it. But there were these really profound ties that were beginning to be built in the communities there because they came from there. They came from the communities, and then they did all this service in the communities just like the Young Lords and I think just like the Young Patriots too. JJ: So, who was (inaudible). 16 �AL: I was able to talk to Willie Calvin. He was on the defense committee and stuff like that. JJ: (inaudible) in your dissertation. AL: I draw a lot on his. One of the things I draw on his work was the interview with him was that -- he came out of the Army and then he was -- he got basically organized in Crane High School there on the West Side also. And so, a lot of it was them -- how they encountered the Panthers and they got basically brought into the organization. And so, I more utilized his work to talk about how the Panthers drew from not only -- it was students [00:24:00] and then it was also people from street organizations but also it was ex-military or veterans that kind of came back from the military and then became organized into the Panther Party. There was kind of three -- a lot of people think it was just kind of ex-gang members that became Panthers. And it really wasn’t that. Actually, the Young Lords may have more of a history of that, of actually evolving from a street organization into a political party. The Black Panther Party was not really that. It was a lot of students. Fred Hampton wasn’t a gang member. A lot of other people weren’t. They were civil rights activists and many of them were students. Some of them came from street organizations and some of them came from the military. So, I use him as kind of an example to demonstrate there was people coming from different directions. JJ: Ok what about Young Lords? AL: I was able to talk with [Omar Lopez?]. I was able to talk with you. JJ: What (inaudible)? 17 �AL: Omar was really good because Omar -- he’s a Mexicano and his brother was also pretty much [00:25:00] a very important activist that had been political in LADO and also was even political in Mexico. And so, there was that kind of history of people understanding oppression in Mexico or Puerto Rico or coming to Chicago and already having that kind of background. And then, he’s involved in LADO. I think at some point, he makes a transition into the Young Lords. So, he was able to really break that down. JJ: He was (inaudible) student (inaudible). AL: Yeah, then a circle that I think is a -- JJ: The YMCA or something like that. AL: Yeah. So, he was -- but we talked a lot too about what it meant to be -- because I think he actually grew up in Humboldt Park actually, which was at that time still a predominantly white neighborhood. So, when you talk about -- we were talking a lot about Latino history in terms of what it meant to be -- JJ: Well, he came in 1966 around that time. At that time, it was Puerto Rican neighborhood(inaudible) [00:26:00] because it was a Mexican family in a primarily Puerto Rican area at that time. And they got involved with the Puerto Rican community. AL: One of the things that was interesting about the history was his brother was actually (audio cuts out) to react to the riots and actually try to get people out of jail by selling these records of -- there’s this really famous ballad of the -- that was talking about the history of the Puerto Rican riots. But again, the way that 18 �the cultural nationalism worked that he got involved -- I think it was the Spanish Action Committee or something like that. JJ: Spanish Action Coalition. AL: But they were just -- because they were more nationalistic, they didn’t really want to work with -- kind of across with Mexicans. So, I think because of that, they kind of began LADO, right? So, again, it’s one of these precursors -- JJ: And they became criticized even though they were in a leadership role in (inaudible). AL: Right. So, he ended up having -- because you have, again, these divisions -[00:27:00] JJ: Not by the Young Lords because we definitely respected his leadership. AL: Of course. But the thing about LADO too -- JJ: They played a major role in the Young Lords. AL: The thing about LADO too that’s important is they were very much involved with welfare activism. And they were doing a lot of work with women who were dealing with all these humiliations and problems with the welfare offices that were developing with the war on poverty programs at that time period. And so, I think through that it was always this defense, this community defense. So, LADO was involved with that. I think again, even in the West Side, there’s the West Side organization and even in uptown, which is the Young Patriots, where they come out of -- which was [JOIN?] which was doing this welfare activism. And they were also beginning to do a lot of antiracist work. So, I think when I look at it, there’s these earlier organizations that are beginning to grapple with the solidarity 19 �politics. You can go ahead and come through. No, that’s no problem. That are beginning to grapple with those issues of how do you develop a [00:28:00] movement, a coalition across cultural nationalism or dealing with those issues. But I don’t think it came together as forcefully as it did with the original Rainbow Coalition. But they were beginning to do that. They were doing the community defense work. They were interested in community control. They were doing welfare politics. JJ: We were working together. AL: Yeah, people were working together. It’s not that one starts and the other one (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JJ: We had a coalition with them with LADO and then we had the coalition with the Panthers. AL: Yeah, I see. JJ: So, we had -- they were involved with everything we did, and we were involved with everything (inaudible). AL: I think that’s a good way to put it because it’s not like they stopped. I mean, at one point join -- JJ: Because the Young Lords had coalitions within the Puerto Rican community and the Mexican community. And the Black Panther Party had coalitions in the African American community. And the Young Patriots had coalitions in uptown and other white organizations. AL: That’s an incredible way to think about it. 20 �JJ: So, when we had the Rainbow Coalition, that put all these organizations together. [00:29:00] AL: That’s a great way to think about it. I mean, when you think about that moment -I mean, this is why at that time period people were -- I think people figure out that you have to build coalitions because you’re dealing with an enemy who doesn’t want you to deal with -- you’re dealing with an enemy as a coalition, a real strong coalition who doesn’t want you to have a similar very strong coalition. See what I mean? So, I think at that point, it’s really important to know your enemy, as they would say. JJ: It’s powerful. It was city wide. And that’s why the (inaudible) came out now. Now, were you able to look at, in your dissertation, at some of the oppression? AL: Yeah, oh yeah. I mean, it’s really -- JJ: Because (inaudible) right? AL: It’s a painful history to look at because I mean -- JJ: Did you discover anything? AL: Yeah, I think probably one of the most -- and maybe people will argue against this. [00:30:00] But I think that when you look at repression, it’s not just that they’re violent towards people. It’s also the way that they use laws and the ways that they introduce -- they criminalize. To criminalize people is also a very important thing. So, if you look at -- the way that my dissertation is -- the way I look at it is like the original Rainbow Coalition develops basically in early 1969, sometime in January or February is as close as I’ve been able to kind of identify when it comes together formally. I mean, people are working -- 21 �JJ: It was January. AL: People are kind of working together previously. JJ: The day after the police -- well, we got connected to Fred. AL: So, people know each other and they’re working together. But I think a more formal thing comes together in January or February. And then, there’s a lot of really important work particularly around the universities and the campuses, organizing work. But if you realty look at -- what I think is if you look at when [Manuel Ramos?] is killed, that’s really an important moment because I think -my interview with you was that there were still some Young Lords who were kind of [00:31:00] maybe not all in yet at that point as far as becoming a political organization. But when Manuel Ramos gets killed by a police officer in May, it really kind of drives home the point that there’s this -- Fred Hampton says we live in a sick society. And so, I think that really galvanizes a lot of people at that point. And there’s really this amazing series of events after Manuel Ramos is killed where the Black Panthers and the Young Patriots and a lot of other people, SDS and other people really kind of come together at that point. Now, in terms of repression, to me, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that after these series of events and protests and marches and agitating -- you guys go to the police station. You go to Bridgeport actually. JJ: (inaudible) AL: Yeah, you went to mayor -- I don’t think it’s a coincidence that after you go to Mayor Daley’s neighborhood -- [00:32:00] JJ: We were like a (inaudible) we didn’t even know it was Mayor Daley’s house. 22 �AL: Yeah, so I don’t think it’s a coincidence that after you went to Mayor Daley’s hood that just days later he declares a war on gangs. It’s just days later that Mayor Daley declares a war on gangs after all of this agitation. JJ: I didn’t know it was a few days after that. AL: Yeah, it was just days later. It’s literally a couple days -- JJ: There was a major (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). AL: And that’s what I call governmentality in my thing is when you have a conscious. JJ: The (inaudible) was right after the Manuel Ramos (inaudible). AL: Right after all the Manuel Ramos agitation and rage and anger about him being killed. There’s all this activism and direct action. And to me, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that Mayor Daley declares a war on gangs right after that. Now, people say it was because all these gangs are getting together, and the Blackstone Rangers thing. I don’t think so. I argue against that. [00:33:00] I think it was because there was -- JJ: No, we were already there. AL: Yeah, they were already doing all this stuff. And they didn’t have a revolutionary political consciousness. But I think when all this this comes together with the Panthers, I think that really ties together the Panthers, the Lords, and the Patriots that much more solid with Manuel Ramos. JJ: All (inaudible) Blackstone Rangers, Jesse Jackson was working with the Blackstone Rangers at that time. They developed some red berets. AL: That’s right. 23 �JJ: And so, they were (inaudible) so the city was worried about them too. But you’re right. We had just gone to Mayor Daley’s house to protest in front of his house. AL: That’s my argument. I mean, I’m not saying it’s mine because I’m arguing against other academics who might say it. But I think it’s important. I think that Manuel Ramos -- so, after they declared the war on gangs, you really see a more systemic series of repressions. It kind of makes it okay for the police to run wild on all these organizations. You really see an escalation of surveillance. You see people getting killed. And what I write about -- I have a chapter [00:34:00] that’s called “The Rainbow Summer of 1969” which is really where you have all this heavy -- when you guys take over the church which is not too long after Manuel Ramos is killed -- this heavy politics going on but also this heavy repression. And that’s that relationship. JJ: The McCormick Seminary was taken over right after Manuel Ramos (inaudible). AL: Exactly, right after that. So, I basically -- JJ: We were on the news that whole week. AL: So, I think the death of Manual Ramos kicks off the Rainbow summer of 1969. But you had people getting killed. You had people getting arrested. Fred Hampton goes to jail in early June. It’s just a lot of systemic repression. But I think it’s connected to the war on gangs, which to me was a conscious effort to contain a lot of this coalition building that was taking place. JJ: Do you think it was connected at that time was the war on gangs (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). 24 �AL: Yes, I think it’s a conscious -- that’s why I use the word governmentality to deal with the ways that local agents of government think consciously about power and how you maintain it. [00:35:00] JJ: So, what about Reverend Bruce Johnson was killed? What did you (inaudible)? AL: Yeah, I think that’s part of it. I think what you’re dealing with is that Reverend Bruce Johnson was an important institutional leader in Lincoln Park who had embraced the Young Lords. So, in other words, you have to eliminate that force because Reverend Bruce Johnson provided a lot of legitimacy for the Young Lords because a pastor, someone who’s running a church embraces this organization -- JJ: He’s the United Methodist -- AL: Yeah, he’s the United Methodist minister. JJ: And he was a pastor of the church that was taken over. The congregation opposed us, but he supported us. AL: That’s right. He’s a supporter. He’s an institutional leader. He’s got a lot of legitimacy in the community. And if he’s supporting this organization, then they’re connected, then the Young Lords is legitimate. But if you get rid of that, then it’s like you have the Young Lords is kind of disconnected in a certain way. It’s kind of [00:36:00] cutting a real main lifeline, again, of that interaction between the community, the legitimacy that’s required. JJ: And he was found stabbed 17 times and his wife 19. AL: And we know how it is. You’re dealing with an enemy that will hire some sadistic -- 25 �JJ: So, they tried to even make it look like he was stabbed with a knife, like “Oh a Latino..” That’s what they were trying to say at that time. Like stereotyping. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). AL: Like a Latino. That’s an interesting point to make. That’s really important. If you think about that -- that shows you how sadistic, how maniacal these people that we’re dealing with, that they would even do that to make it look like that. And that’s who you’re dealing with. And that’s what I try to say. Let’s not underestimate or not think about who we’re dealing with. We’re dealing with some of the most brutal people that have lived on the face of humanity. JJ: So we don’t have any proof, but it could’ve been part of the [oppression?], is that what you’re saying? I don’t want to put words (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). [00:37:00] AL: The way I look at it is that I think the -- one of the aspects of those in power is that it unleashed people to do a lot of crazy shit. You know what I mean? So, nothing is out of bounds. So, even this heinous death of Bruce Johnson -- I mean, they could have hired -- who knows who they were hiring. They could just say, “Hey man, go off this dude.” You’re dealing with some sadistic people. So, I don’t think -- JJ: And in fact, there were a lot of letters being written to the bishops to kick him out of their church. AL: Right. They might have wanted to do it, to get rid of him one way or another. But if he stood in there and said, “No, I’m going to defend this community, I’m going to defend this organization,” then they get violent. That’s the way -- that’s what 26 �you’re dealing with. So, to me, I think it’s deeply connected. I think it’s -- look, we don’t need that. We know. We don’t need the direct records. You know what I mean? Because we know. That’s what we call in academia epistemology. We don’t need an empirical [00:38:00] proof. We don’t need a smoking gun to know that that’s what went down. We know that’s what went down because that’s the importance of politics. That’s what I try to write about in my dissertation. If you don’t understand the politics and then make sense of why this Reverend Bruce Johnson is going to endure that kind of death then it’s going to make sense why Manuel Ramos was shot by an on duty police officer. We don’t need to go through a legal process and do all this because we know the politics of it, the class struggle, the political struggle. That’s what you need to know. That’s what I think is important. JJ: So, what other -- is important that -- you mentioned the class (inaudible) what were some other points there? AL: Yeah, I think the major thing to realize is that in December [00:40:00] there’s all this tremendous repression. The best example -- or the worst example is the assassination of Chairman Fred Hampton, who was one of the most powerful -- a lot of people forget that he was one of the most powerful advocates and one of the most eloquent advocates of the Rainbow Coalition, but also somebody who was really good at blasting these cultural porkchop nationalists. He was one of the best at -- if you read his speeches, you’ll crack up laughing because he’s just that great. And so, he had a speech that was actually called “It’s a Class 27 �Struggle Goddammit.” That was the title of his speech. This was Fred Hampton. So, again, he’s another person that, unfortunately, was -JJ: We used to call him Chairman. AL: Chairman Fred Hampton, for sure. Chairman Fred Hampton was assassinated. [Mark Clark?] was killed and a lot of other people were shot during that raid on the apartment. But Chairman Fred Hampton -- after his death, one of the things that I tried to write about [00:40:00] that I conclude with is that you really see the reintroduction of these racial divisions in Chicago because a lot of people -- when Chairman Fred Hampton was killed -- were of course angry and enraged that this young, incredible leader would be shot up like that at four in the morning. But a lot of people -- because again, there’s not necessarily that revolutionary political consciousness that circulates in the communities -- they might have thought he was killed because he was Black or he was killed because he was a Black leader. But Chairman Fred Hampton was killed because he was a revolutionary leader. He was an internationalist. JJ: We didn’t call him Chairman in (inaudible) was more relaxed. AL: Sure, I understand. JJ: But just out of respect, we knew he was the chairman of the (inaudible). AL: He was a revolutionary internationalist leader. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) He related very well to the room. When he was in the room, you wouldn’t even know that he was the leader of the (inaudible) you just [00:41:00] -- he wasn’t into titles. 28 �AL: So, if you see what happens -- what I write about in my conclusion is that already -- he’s killed in December. Already in January and February, there’s all these events to commemorate him and there’s all these things. But you already see people going back to that cultural nationalism, going back to that porkchop nationalism right away. JJ: And in fact, that existed in that time of the Panthers and some of the Young Lords and especially in the Young Patriots too. AL: But that becomes really intense. JJ: So, that was part of our work. AL: That was the work. That was the tactic to engage that. But you already get that intensity. The one thing that I think we should think about more is that I think they’re really conscious and understanding that whenever you inflict a lot of pain on people like when they killed Fred Hampton, that oftentimes the first tendency is to react through cultural nationalism and to react through that kind of rage because you can say, “That’s [00:42:00] one of my people and they killed him because he’s Latino or Puerto Rican or Black.” And I think they know that. [aside] Go ahead man, actually I think someone might be in there, but- So, I think they understand that very well, and I think that’s -- and they even [thrived on this?]. One of the things that I try to show, the evidence I try to show is that – JJ: [aside] There’s nobody in there. AL: [aside] Oh sorry about that man. Sorry about that. JJ: That’s alright 29 �AL: So, one of the things that I try to write about is after -- if you look at like what the police are doing -- and again, this is why I study the police, the people that we’re up against. What they’re doing is they’re actually antagonizing Black people in Chicago. They’re tearing down posters of Fred Hampton. They’re shooting up posters of Fred Hampton. They’re staging mock raids of -JJ: Wait, this is -- AL: After Fred Hampton’s killed. They want people to react that way. They want people to react through cultural nationalism and racial consciousness. Instead of class consciousness, they want [00:43:00] racial consciousness. So, they’re antagonizing people to get them even more angry and more thinking that what it was about was because he was a Black leader when in fact, he was a Black leader but he was also a revolutionary internationalist leader. So, it’s a way that you kind of silence that history. And now, all of the sudden, now you get Chairman Fred Hampton is really -- he’s only thought about as like a Black Panther or Black Panther leader or Black leader but in fact, he has the leader of everybody. He was the leader of a lot of people, not just Black folks. So, I think it’s important to see. So, the way that I think about it is you have the original Rainbow Coalition undermines and disrupts what’s going on in Chicago for a brief moment, for a few months, for a year maybe. But then, you have the repression and then it gets kind of recuperated, the racial consciousness. The way power gets recuperated -- and it’s the same thing -- if you look historically -if you look at the Haymarket riots or if you look at when Black people [00:44:00] were resisting militantly during the 1919 race riots, when you look at different 30 �things, things get disrupted and then the class struggle -- the way it operates is they fix it. They get -- we’re dealing with a smart enemy who learns. They observe and participate too, so they learn and they develop new and sophisticated ways to keep their power and make money. That’s what happens after the -- they learned. They saw the original Rainbow Coalition, what it was. The repressed it. If you can’t fix it nonviolently, they’ll fix it violently. And then, they kind of come afterwards and then they develop a new way because they not only want to fix it, they want to fix it for the future. They want to make sure that no other coalition, no other revolutionary work is going to happen in the future. So, they do all kinds of shit to kind of get people stuck in what I call paralysis to keep them kind of politically paralyzed. JJ: That’s very important, what you just said about what they want to do. [00:45:00] Their intentions -- and it’s very important how Fred -- how he opposed their intention and why the Rainbow Coalition was important. You just said that Fred was a leader, not only of Black people, but of all people of (inaudible) and that’s what he was able to do, I mean, with his coalition was to unite more people that were not necessarily from the African American community, like Latinos, like poor whites and that. He was able to do that. And the enemy was doing the opposite. Like you said, they didn’t want this coalition to ever exist again. And they came with the cultural nationalism. So, this is very important what you just said. Fred was a leader of all people. AL: One of the conclusions -- I’m hoping to maybe write about this more in the future, look into it more. [00:46:00] So, it’s not really set in stone. But one of the things 31 �that we’ll come to is I think that we’re dealing with an enemy with an owning class. I think that they know that the best way to undermine class struggle is to attack Black folks or to attack Latinos or any other kind of racialized people, but particularly I think Black people because I think that they know -- like I said, they understand how people react and they know that in those reactions builds a lot of divisions or maintains a lot of divisions. And I think they know that. I really do believe that. I really do believe that. That’s one of the features, that’s one the characteristics of the people that we’re up against. And that’s why to me it’s not coincidence that you have all this kind of heinous violence and oppression that Black people endure in the United States. It all maintains that racial consciousness. And we’re dealing with an enemy that thrives upon people maintaining a racial consciousness exclusively. [00:47:00] And what we’re trying to say and I think what the original Rainbow Coalition tried to say -- it's not a problem just dealing -- you can have a racial consciousness, but add the class consciousness to the racial consciousness. JJ: And that was the beauty of (inaudible) the timing of that (inaudible) was people were proud of who they were, but the people were also relaxed and able to communicate with each other very well during that time. People were learning from each other here just like they were learning internationally from each nation. So, it was like that consciousness of internationalism. But with respect to nationalism (inaudible). I mean, everybody was united because of that. AL: You could see it on a global level. 32 �JJ: But today you can see the differences that racial -- and negative racial (inaudible) and you can see it when you go to meetings. AL: That’s right. And I still think there’s all the -- I think there’s all the ideological struggle that still exists. [00:48:00] People don’t really want to acknowledge it. And that’s the other thing that we’ve got to deal with too because people really -they say they like the Panthers and they like the Young Lords, but really, they’re practicing a different ideological politics than the Black Panthers and the Young Lords. JJ: What do you mean by that? AL: Well, (audio cuts out) really study the Black Panthers and the Young Lords and the ideology. This was ideology. This was ideological struggle. You can’t escape it whether you want to or not. And they were practicing a particular ideological struggle that came from a history of revolutionary activism on a global level applied to Chicago. You see what I mean? And this was against certain ideological tendencies. And we can name them. We can name them in terms of Trotskyism. We can name them in terms of all these other leftist mistakes that people were making, which is why you had SDS going the direction it went, which is why you had all this struggle with all these other organizations. JJ: What do you mean going the direction -- AL: Well, when they factionalized based upon all of these ideological struggles. [00:49:00] They fell apart based on that. JJ: And we did too. 33 �AL: And all the organizations (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) it happened everywhere. JJ: That was a tool (inaudible)? AL: I think so. JJ: Or was it naturally and they (inaudible) took it over. AL: I think the way to think about it maybe is that during that time period there’s a -you have to give people a break. So, people are experimenting with a lot of ideology. And it’s all right to do that. It’s all right to experiment and read books and look at different -- the Cuban revolution, the Chinese revolution, look at things like that. Again, what we know is that you can’t be a mechanical in terms of ideology. You have to really come from what is going on in your particular community, your particular location in build a struggle and build an ideology based on the needs of your people in that particular area, which was [00:50:00] Chicago or Lincoln Park or the West Side. And I think that’s why when the Black Panthers or the Young Lords -- the ideology that y’all were using in driving that and applying and learning from -- because you can make mistakes as long as you learn from them and do it again -- was an ideology that came organically from the conditions of Chicago. And I think when you have all the other people, other activists come in from other areas or other places, whether it’s -- they might be Young Lords but they might be from New York. They might not really understand Chicago. Whenever you have that kind of situation and you try to extrapolate and try to apply it to different places, it’s not going to work. This is why when Dr. Martin Luther King came to Chicago in 1966, he wasn’t able to 34 �really create the kinds of changes he envisioned even though we might like those visions because it wasn’t tailored to the particular conditions that existed in Chicago. And that’s why I think also the original Rainbow Coalition is important because it’s an alliance that developed from the particular conditions of Chicago, which is a segregated racist ass city. And so, when you deal with [00:51:00] ideological struggle, you’re oftentimes dealing with people who don’t have organic knowledge of the city, of the neighborhoods. And we’re trying to apply mechanically ideas of anarchism, Trotskyism, all kinds of shit, which really just confuses the people and takes them in a direction that only our enemy really thrives upon. Now, you don’t need to know -- again, this is one thing I write about. You don’t need to be an expert on Marxism and Maoism to know the class struggle. This is why I like what you all are talking about too. You only have to look around and be really honest and sincere about what conditions are going on in your neighborhood and in your family. All I’ve got to do is look at my family and see what the hell is going on with this sick society. I don’t even need to read a book. And that’s what I think is when we deal with the ideological struggle, which I think people -- we’ve got to be real wary because, yes, we’ve got to build unity, but we can’t be naïve that that ideological struggle [00:52:00] still exists because there’s forces that are still pushing, peddling cultural nationalism, peddling anarchism, peddling all kinds of shit to our people, whether we want to like it or not. That’s another thing I like about this project. I taught me that there’s a lot of things you might want to do, but whether you like it or not, 35 �there are some conditions you’ve got to deal with whether you want to like it or not, you’ve got to deal with it. JJ: What are any final thoughts about your project? AL: Well, I mean, I just think that the thing that we -- one of the things that I try to write about -- I hope it’s not taken in a disrespectful way -- is that there’s one way -- there’s one thing that we’ve got to set the record straight because you talked about a lot. People have misrepresented the history and misrepresented the organizations and really distorted what work people did. So, it’s important that there’s that set [00:53:00] the record straight kind of work that needs to be done. Academics call it -- we need to recover the history and be accurate about it. That’s very important. But that can’t be the only way that we -- the only reason why this history is important. I think it offers political lessons that can be applied to what’s going on today. So, a lot of times I think -- and this is why I think some of the divisions occur in terms of the history because people want to get their story and they want to set the record straight. And it’s really hard because people have different experiences. So, there’s not just one Black Panther experience or one Young Lord experience or one Young Patriot experience. There’s actually a lot of different experiences. If you’re a woman or depending upon what your background is, you’re going to have a different look at it. And then, some people actually maybe weren’t as committed as other people. So, there’s going to be a lot of those. There’s people that claim they were this and claim they were that. [00:54:00] So, you have a lot of things. So, setting the record straight is important. That work has to be done. And I think the 36 �movement people, the activists that were doing stuff back then need to tell their story. And academics need to step out of the way or just be assistants or whatever they can do to help them come forward. But at the same time, I think there’s political lessons that need to be acknowledged and looked at and discussed and then brought forward to today. And so, I hope that we do both of that work. I hope that both of that work is done. In my introduction, I write about this woman who says, “I love that history, but what happened?” And that’s what I’m trying to say. We need to be able to explain what happened and be very clear with the people about what we’re dealing with and who we’re dealing with. So, that’s what I’ll say. All right, Cha-Cha. END OF VIDEO FILE 37 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/41fb868f82a1902cf80ef0b0015fab25.mp4 98d928e98d8ad9912c8c50f0885e2c38 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Antonio López vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Lopez_Antonio Title A name given to the resource Antonio López video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource López, Antonio Description An account of the resource Antonio López grew up in the Logan Square Neighborhood of Chicago and heard about the Young Lords early in life, as his parents are activists. Mr. López is also active in various projects and community organizations. He is of Mexican descent and Logan Square is currently a prime real estate target for developers, who continue to prey on Latinos and the poor, and are supported by city hall and their housing Master Plan. In fact it is not hard to locate many of these developers who readily finance machine loyalists and who have sat and still sit on the many city boards. Mr. López ‘s parents were connected to the land grant struggles in New Mexico that were being led by Reis López Tijerina. Mr. Tijerina was born on September 21, 1926 near Falls City, Texas. He is preacher who founded the Alianza Federal de Pueblos Libres (Federal Alliance of Land Grants) in New Mexico. He is widely credited as launching the early Chicano Civil Rights Movement, although Mr. Tijerina prefers the term “Indo Hispano Movement” because the word “Chicano” can also divide Mexicans. At the time of this oral history, Mr. López was completing his doctoral studies in the Department of History at the University of Texas, El Paso. His doctoral dissertation focuses on the Rainbow Coalition, which originally began with Chairman Fred Hampton and included the Young Patriots and Young Lords. Mr. López has voluntarily assisted the Young Lords on various projects beyond his dissertation. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-15 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9b5c9f9507c2bd2e0253710ff94cc78f.pdf 26c6ff759e2f5a5f2611870324c24b4e PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Melvin Lewis Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 8/26/2012 Biography and Description Melvin Lewis was born in Chicago but today lives in Fayetteville, North Carolina. His parents live in Maywood, Illinois. This is the same town where Fred Hampton of the Black Panther Party (BPP) grew up. It is also where, at Maywood’s City Hall, there is a recreation center with a swimming pool named after the slain leader of Chicago’s BPP. There is also a street named “Fred Hampton Way” and a bust of Chairman Fred Hampton. Mr. Lewis is a Chicago Black Panther and freelance writer, a master gardener and certified beekeeper. His recent articles include “Out Loud and Into Print” in the May/June 2012 issue of City View (NC). He writes on music and his publications include features on “Hootie and the Blow Fish,” and singer and song writer “Rene Marie in Pluck!” He has written and broadcast twelve vignettes about civil rights for FM Radio stations 107.7 and 91.9 FM and conducted interviews on horticulture, history and art. Mr. Lewis has also won the Significant Illinois Poet Award and is a graduate of the University of Illinois at Chicago. He is currently assisting with the Chicago Black Panther History Project. Their motto is, “ We will tell our story, in our own words; Illinois Panthers speak for themselves.” �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: So, okay, if you can give me your name, date of birth, and where you were born? MELVIN EUGENE LEWIS: My name is Melvin [Eugene?] Lewis. I was born in Chicago, Illinois, September 17, 1954. JJ: 1954? ML: In Cook County. And I grew up in Chic-- JJ: Oh, you mean at the hospital? ML: Now, they call it University of Illinois Hospital, but then they used to call it Illinois Research. I have two older brothers. One was born in Selma, Alabama, in Dallas County. And my middle brother was born also in Chicago, but he was born in Cook County Hospital. JJ: Okay, but you weren't born in Cook County Hospital? ML: No, I was born in University of Illinois. Which is now called University of Illinois Hospital. Yeah. Yeah. JJ: And what's your parents name? ML: My father, who's deceased, is [Clifton?] Lewis Senior. I have an older brother that's Clifton Lewis Junior. And my [00:01:00] mother is [Pearl?] Lewis, and they were born in Alabama. My father was born on a farm. His father and all them, since probably when we came in this country, they were farmers. So my grandfather, his name was [William?] Lewis, he was a tenant farmer, which means he rented the land. He didn't own the land and he wasn't a sharecropper. 1 �So he rented the land and he paid a fee. And then, like many farmers, he had other jobs, so he was a barber on Saturdays and I'm told that he hauled wood or he cut wood. And so when you're not farming or the, you know, it's the seasons, you're between seasons and pulling crops. He would cut wood and bring it to the city (inaudible) and sell wood. JJ: So what's a sharecropper? ML: A sharecropper is someone that actually has less money and they share the crop with the owner, which is not as financially good ’cause most sharecroppers never get out of debt ’cause you [00:02:00] don't have the money for the feed, so each year you're continuously going to their bank. It's like credit cards now. You got 28 percent interest. You don't get out of debt. It takes you a whole lot. So the sharecropper, a lot of times if it was a big farmer, they even had them go to get the seeds from them and go to their store, and many farmers had very little education. They knew how to farm, but they may not -- depending upon their educational skills, and then they may not know how to be good with contracts and math. So people tried to avoid being sharecroppers ’cause sharecroppers kept you where, like, you were always dealing with a company store. But if you a tenant farmer, it's like rent. Okay, I rent the land, you charge me x dollars for the year and I probably have a house on there, which also probably comes with that. [00:03:00] And then I pay you that per month or per year. But it's not a good relationship because you can't pass it on. And so something that was [in?] geography, Doctor [James Blout?] talked about how, you know, when you rent the land, you're not necessarily much of a conservationist as if you own it 2 �because if you own it, you're gonna pass it down to your children or try to keep it in the family. So my parents moved from Alabama to Chicago after World War Two because the future wasn't very bright in Dallas County. Dallas County is where they had the Pettus Bridge, where they had the marches with John Lewis and hundreds of people got beat up because they were protesting segregation. So my parents went to an all-Blacks high school. There was two separate schools. One system for Blacks and one for whites and I never knew [00:04:00] what happened to Native Americans. I have to find that out. In the South where if Native Americans -- what school system they went to because in many cases they weren't enough to have three. So they left. Many people left after World War Two. The veterans who went to the war, when they came back, they may come back and pick up their family, and they went to metropolitan area. So my uncles, my maternal grandmother's brothers, came to Chicago. So one worked JJ: Were they veterans, or...? ML: Yeah, they were veterans. And one went to the meat packing, which was unionized, so you got you had a livable wage, and the other one worked at the -- JJ: Oh, you mean the meat pa-- in the back of The Yards? ML: Back of The Yards, over by what used to be -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) My father worked there [in town?]. ML: Yeah. Used to be... What do they call this place on 43rd and Halsted? The International -- Not McCormick Place. It was... [00:05:00] JJ: Yeah, I remember. 3 �ML: Yeah, there’s a big place in -- JJ: I remember meat packing’s where my father worked. ML: Yeah. And they had this big place where they had the cattle and all that. There was a whole industry over there, so my dad worked over there. JJ: In the Stock Yards. ML: Stock Yards. Yeah. And they had a show place, like a arena, which part was for the cattle, but also was entertainment over there. And then one of my uncles worked as a longshoreman, like, I guess around where Navy Pier or wherever the ships came in. JJ: But your father wasn't a veteran though? ML: No, my father wasn’t a veteran. My father was too young for that. My father was born in ’31, so he would have been 14 in ’45. And like many people his generation, he didn't finish high school. He dropped out ’cause he could get a job. So, in the summers, he would come to Chicago and work with his uncles, [00:06:00] and then he decided to drop out and get a job. And then he got married, and then my mother came to Chicago. But I got a story about the marriage. My father and his uncle by birth, that's his mother's brother, were leaving in 1947 from Chicago to Alabama. So they took a bus from Chicago down to Birmingham, and it was raining. And so, in the North, the bus is not segregated. In the South, they are. So once they get to Birmingham, they arrived on a Friday, and he's supposed to get married on Saturday afternoon because it's not -- like, now, we think first in, first out. You know, whoever's the first, if the bus is overloaded and they'd put the next people away. They made all 4 �the Black people wait. So my father was supposed to get married on a Saturday, and this is before cell phones and phones at home, and telegraphs were [00:07:00] rare. My uncle and my father didn't get on the bus until Saturday evening. They didn't get to the town that they were in till Sunday morning. So my mother was expectin’ to get married on Saturday. So she's in her dress and her mother's there, and, you know, in those days, people got married at home. And so my father showed up Sunday morning. So his uncle and his uncle's sister, my father's aunt, who was also small town, was married to my mother's uncle. They went to her parents' house and told them what happened. So they got married on a Sunday instead of a Saturday. And subsequent to that, my father never caught public transportation to the South again. Because, you know, you think about, you're getting married, you plan to get married, and my mother talked about she was crying because she felt like my father stood her up. And then her mother was trying to comfort her and her father started drinking and got drunk. You know, then people whispering, [00:08:00] “He stood up, he stood up.” JJ: But it was a segregation thing. ML: Yeah, yeah. So they finally told everybody to go home, you know. Then the next day they got everybody back together and they got married on the Sunday. JJ: Your siblings, your brothers and sisters? ML: I have -- JJ: And what are their names? ML: -- two brothers. I have brother, Clifton Junior. He lives four blocks from here. 5 �We're in Maywood today. He lives in Broadview. And I have a brother named [Jearl?], and he lives out west. JJ: What are they doing? What type of work? ML: Clifton drives a train in train yards. And my brother, Jearl, he's a pilot. He's a commercial pilot, so he flies from Detroit, Atlanta, to Asia. So he flies a big 747. So he got his flight training in the military. He's good with math and science, so he has a degree. And then he went to pilots training, which is like getting a master's degree because you go for, like, [00:09:00] a year, depending upon which planes you're learning. So he, you know, started off with one and go up. He was a major in the military, and then he was -- JJ: He was a major? ML: Yeah. So he was a captain with the airlines. So he left. He left after so many years. He didn't do 20. He did like, I guess, about eight or something like that because he wanted to go with the commercial. So he's a pilot. Yeah. And I have a son, who's a college student now. And his name is [Gahiji Lewis?]. Yeah. JJ: What do you do? ML: I'm a freelance writer, and I write about popular culture, about horticulture. My latest two articles, one of them's on the internet, it's called “The Greening of the Sand Hills”, and it's about [00:10:00] the green movement in southeastern North Carolina. And also, I write short stories and poetry. So there's a book, this is a book called The Black Panther Party Reconsidered. JJ: You wanna lift that up? Yeah. Okay. 6 �ML: Black Panther Party Reconsidered, and I have a long poem in there. JJ: Who wrote that? ML: The editor of this book is Doctor Charles Jones, and I wrote a poem in it called “Once I was a Panther,” which was a reprint from an earlier magazine that was in Indiana. This magazine, I had a poem in there. So they reprint the poem from here into his book, and so that's chapter three. JJ: That’s called the “Black American Literature Forum?” ML: Yeah. Correct. Yeah. Now, they call it “African American Review.” And I write short stories. One of my short stories, this is the book on short stories, this book has short stories from all over the diaspora. JJ: So that’s your book? ML: I have chapter in there. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) chapter in it? Okay. ML: So I have a chapter, and my short story in there is called “La Línea Negra”, which means the black line. So, like, if [00:11:00] you're having a baby, if you're a woman of color, and when your abdomen starts growing, that's what the medical term is, la línea negra. So if they had to do a C-section. So I don't know why I thought of that. And then if you're a light lady, then they call it la línea blanca. So wherever they gonna have the line if they had to do a C-section when you’re pregnant, or embarazada. JJ: So you speak a little Spanish. ML: Yeah, you know -- JJ: Where did you get that at? 7 �ML: Well, a couple of things. My father, when we were kids, when you got big enough, when you got like 12, 14, he took you to work with him at Christmas time and at summertime to start teaching you how to earn money. So he worked on the North Side. He worked on Chicago and Damen approximately. And so it was very international. You could hear people speaking Russian, Polish, German. [00:12:00] So my father picked up Spanish from work because when you work with people, you pick up what you hear around you. You know, some guy said, (Spanish) or (Spanish) or whatever. JJ: (Spanish), yeah. Yeah. ML: Or cuidado, you know, like, “Watch out.” So you pick those things up. JJ: Because Chicago and Damen was a Spanish area, Puerto Rican area? ML: It was everything, you know. Yeah. JJ: But there were Spanish people working with him? ML: Yeah. So he worked with some Panamanian guys. JJ: Oh, Panamanian. Okay. ML: And then I went to school at Von Steuben on the North Side. And so Von Stueben had people -- JJ: Where's Van [sic] Stueben? ML: Von Steuben's on, I think, 20, Kimball. Kimball on the North Side is the same thing as Homan. So you can say Homan and between Foster and Lawrence. So it's in the 1500 block. And, when I went to school, it was predominantly Jewish. And so [00:13:00] they had a program called permissive transfers. So if you went to a school in Chicago, or your home high school was overcrowded, you 8 �could transfer to a less crowded school, which actually was a slick way for Chicago to get around with the question of integration and building high schools for the population density. So my home school would have been John Marshall, which is on Kedzie, I guess, and Adams, right? And so I chose to go over there because other people were in my neighborhood, when they switched, were supposed to get a better education. But I never realized that I was going to be on the public transportation like an hour and a half each way. So in my memory, I have memorized the Chicago subway system because for four years, every day, I would leave home maybe, say, 6:30 to get to a class at 8:30, eight o'clock. You know, and if it snowed, then you had to get up much earlier like your parents ’cause you gotta be on time. So we caught the subway -- [00:14:00] JJ: But this is a high school or a grammar -- ML: High school? This is a high school. JJ: You caught the subway? ML: I caught the subway. It’s always multiple ways to go, but I would either catch -get on the subway in Chicago at Pulaski on the line that goes down the Eisenhower Expressway. It's changed colors, but it’s still the train to the same... And you take it to either Jackson or Washington at the transfer point. And then you take the line going up north and you get off either Belmont or Fullerton, and then you take the Ravenswood train all the way down to, actually, the end of the line, almost like if you're going to Northeastern University. And then you walk to school or you can catch the bus. It's two blocks. So that was a program called permissive transfer and that's one of the reasons I -- 9 �JJ: Triathlon. (laughs) ML: Huh? JJ: Triathlon. ML: Yeah. Or [00:15:00] you could get the Jackson bus or some bus from where you were to Homan, and then you take the Homan bus 50 blocks, and that's a long time, you know. So we learned different ways. Depends upon the mood and time of day. You know, in the morning, you trying to get to school quickly. And so you learn the subway system because you can't fall asleep, then you might miss your train, then you're late for school. And that's a whole culture being on the subway every day. JJ: That’s a long day then. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) ML: It's a long day, yeah. And if you've got eight o'clock class, you might leave at 6:30 because if you leave at 7:00, traffic is heavy. It's just like going to work with you're a parent or adult. So you learn it. And Chicago has always had a system where students get a bus pass or something. You pay for a bus pass so it's a reduced fare. But you learn the system and you learn the culture, like you don't go to sleep on the L, on the [00:16:00] bus if you can, you know. JJ: Why are you saying that? ML: Because somebody’ll roll you. Somebody will rob you. And you don't show any wealth, you know? You got to keep your (inaudible) away. So recently I brought my son here and we went over on public transportation University of Chicago and to the Museum of Science. Museum of Science is around the lake, and you can walk from Museum of Science to University of Chicago. So I was trying to teach 10 �him something. He put his headphones on. I said, “You can't do that.” JJ: You’re trying to not teach him, school him. (laughs) ML: School him, because what happens is you get rolled. Can you put that on pause for a second? JJ: Sure. (break in audio) ML: Yeah, my son grew up in North Carolina. I live in North Carolina. I live in the [small market?] Fayetteville, North Carolina. So my son isn’t a city person. He put his headphones on, like for his iPod and listening to music. I said, “You can't do that and walk down the street.” He says, “Why?” I said, “Because you've got to be able to hear [00:17:00] the L, so you know if you've got to run faster to the L. And you got to be able to hear somebody behind you. If they're walking, you can hear their heels, and you got to be able to hear what they're saying. So you got to know, be able to sense threats and non-threats in the environment. And also if you have your headphones and you got an iPod that's open.” My son is small. He's like 5’5”, and he's maybe 130 pounds. So, you know, some guys would say, “Hey, we can take an iPod. iPod a hundred and some dollars. And we take that from you because you're small, you know.” So I was trying to tell him, you can't do this. You have to, you have to learn how to survive in the city. Whether you're in Chicago or New York, the rules are the same. You got to pay attention to your environment. You can't act weak. You got to be able to know when you got to exert force and don't talk. You got to be able, we used to say, “Don't sell wolf cookies.” Because a guy that's talk -- Wolf cookies is when you 11 �talk and you tell somebody, “I'm gonna punch you in your mouth.” That guy might hit you [00:18:00] while you talkin’, you know. (laughter) So they say, if you're not -JJ: Before you finish your sentence, you’ll get hit. ML: That's right. So if you gonna do something, hit him, but you make sure you hit him and knock him down and knock him out, and then he'll leave you alone. But don't sell wolf cookies because if you sell wolf cookies, or you're talking trash, somebody else might hit you in the back of the head with a two by four. So, you know, the issue of urban culture is one of understanding force, and when to use force and when to use respect. Because you gotta be respectful for other people, but you also gotta know you gotta set some boundaries where people don't violate your space and you don't violate theirs. And so if you can do that, you halfway can get along, but you also can't let people punk you out because if they punk you out once, they always gon’ punk you out. So you have to know how to hold your own. So it's just like playing basketball. In basketball, guys come in and they throw elbows and they push. [00:19:00] Well that's part of the game. But there's a limit to it, and if they go beyond that limit, then, you know, that's how you see in sports games that people violate the rules. Like when United States was playing, I think, Argentina and [Carmello?], the guy plays for New York he shot and guy from Argentina came back and gave him a elbow after the shot. Well, that's not part of the game. That was being vicious. So then the other guys say, we got to fight because you can't let somebody do that. Right? So that's what I was trying to teach my son is that you have to understand that, 12 �one, there are predators out here, and you don't want to be the one that they appear to be weak. So there always going to be somebody bigger than you, faster than you. Well, a lot of times they are not going to want to mess with you if they know that you're willing to exert amount of force to defend yourself or protect yourself. JJ: (inaudible) your son’s name? ML: My son's name is Gahiji. It's an African name. JJ: Oh yeah. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) ML: And his [00:20:00] name is in a lot of Eastern languages. It's in Arabic. It's in Swahili. It's a Bantu, which means Bantu languages or trade languages. They're like languages that were created for one guy is from what is now called Saudi Arabia and somebody else is from Tanzania. They create a language, generally at a port, where everybody can talk. So Swahili has Arabic in it, it has African languages in it. So Swahili’s spoken, I think, in about 15 countries from all over the eastern Africa, where you can say from Tanzania, Mozambique, the Congo, Oman, some Kenya, places on the coast where people come together. So just like Miami. When you go to Miami, you can speak three languages in two miles, you know. You got [00:21:00] Little Haiti and you can speak French or Creole, whichever you learned in school or learned in the community. You can go to Little Havana and speak Spanish and you can speak English, and you can hear Caribbean accents where there’s Caribbean. British speaking English, you know, from Jamaica or Barbados or Bahamas. And you can hear Spanish from different countries, and you can hear generally Haitian, Creole, or could be 13 �Martinique, too. So it's just, you know, people speak the languages in which their parents and grandparents spoke. So my son's name is Gahiji, and I wanted to give him an African name because that's part of his heritage and also to make him aware. One of the legacies of TV in this country is that everything has been Eurocentric where it doesn't really represent a lot of Latinos and African Americans and Asians truly. So you have what we used to call like the Charlie [00:22:00] Chan-ish movies, you know, like, okay, only this one guy is smart, you know. What about all these other guys around here that's Asian? Or, unfortunately, a lot of times in movies in this country, the Hispanic roles were the maid. The lady was always the maid. The lady who was in West Side Story. She probably played maid 50 times. Or Hattie McDaniel, who was a singer. JJ: You’re not thinking about Rita Moreno? ML: Yeah. JJ: She plays a maid? ML: Yeah. Yeah. And Hattie McDaniel played the maid. She used to say, “Well, I'd rather play a maid and be rich and have a maid.” But, you know, it's a question sometimes it's dignity. So one of the things that we really didn't like is the Tarzan movies. Where Tarzan is one guy, he's there, he's Superman. He's smarter than everybody else, and he's running through the jungle, so make the Africans look stupid. And, you know, Tarzan, Jane, [00:23:00] and Boy, you know. It's like, okay. So, you know, that was almost like a slicker way of Birth of a Nation. It's really a racist and imperialist movie. So, you know, we gave him an African name because that's part of his heritage, and that way he’d always know some of 14 �that. So my son's been to Africa. And the reason we took him to Africa -JJ: What’s his mother’s name? ML: His mother name is [Patricia Blackwell?]. And we took him to Zimbabwe because, at that point, Mugabe was president, and we wanted to see Zimbabwe and see what they did. We also saw that Zimbabwe was underdeveloped in some ways. There's two things. One is, it’s one thing to be a guerrilla and another one to be administrator. So you might be a good guerrilla and a good fighter. That does not mean that transcribes or translates to being a good statesman. Right? So kicking out the [00:24:00] British and the white settlers was one struggle, but then how do you form society? And in some ways, Zimbabwe has lost a lot of potential where, how do you organize the farms? How do you organize the transport? How do you keep the roads straight? That's a big issue. That's very complicated. And they were able to have a national flag, but a lot of the wealth in society was not organized properly. And it's a struggle where someone comes from someplace and takes the land from the indigenous people, and they might have it for 100 years, but they never paid for it. And then when one group of people have it, and you've got millions of people who are landless or peasants, and they’re peasants because somebody else has consolidated the land, how do you spread that wealth out? And how do you do that and then keep society going? [00:25:00] How do you keep the farm going, keeping the export and import going, keeping the taxes going? And that didn't go very well in Zimbabwe, but we saw that. And then he also went to Tanzania, and there was a guy named Julius Nyerere who talked about African socialism. And 15 �it's a hard thing to keep all this stuff straight, you know, where you -- One thing he did do extremely well was he decided that we're in Africa, we should speak in African language. Why should we speak English? English is the British language. My grandmother, his grandmother, may not have spoke English well. And so why couldn't you have plays and stories in his grandmother's language? So they decided as a nation to make Swahili the national language. That wasn't very many people's national language, but you gotta choose one. So they made Swahili, and he was [an educator?] and he translated Shakespeare into Swahili. So for commerce or for government, [00:26:00] you had to learn Swahili. So eventually, I took a course in Swahili. So we showed him that. So that way, in his mind, he'll never have the image of, like, the whole Tarzan. Africa is not the South. It's a whole different situation. I mean, whether you talk about South Africa and apartheid and Southern segregation, different situation. So he's also been to South Africa. JJ: What are the differences? ML: The differences are quite different. One is, let's say in South Africa, you had an armed state to 1994, and you had an African majority, but you had a minority that had all the guns and, through the guns and investments, controlled society. And also, [00:27:00] you can devastate a culture because you make it where that culture is not important. So, like, say the question of language. I recently saw a musician named Hugh Masekela, who toured all over the world. He plays the trumpet. He lived in the United States a long time. And he's talked about, you know, a time where his parents like jazz and people all over the world like jazz, 16 �everybody plays jazz. They put their input in it. There's jazz from Argentina, there's jazz from New York, there's jazz from Copenhagen, there’s jazz in South Africa. So everybody hears their own rhythm, and they look at the system, and they put in, so it's a little influence. But he talked about how his parents liked to hear jazz, you know. And so the title of a lot of jazz songs from the United States, of course, are in English, but the music, they listen to the music, and he talked about when they didn't speak English. So people have always spoke [00:28:00] their indigenous or their national languages without speaking the language of, quote, the imperialists or the people who are trying to take over. So in South Africa, even to this day, we have townships that have extreme poverty where people built on hills or mountains. So the word Soweto means Southwest Township. It's a result of bringing people to the city and they had to work in the mines. So for people who are in the metropolitan area, it may take you an hour to get to downtown Johannesburg from Soweto because that's how it's built. So at one point they were trying to make the cities just white and the Blacks and the Coloureds, and that's a whole different thing we're talking about, Coloureds. Where they lived on the surrounding. JJ: Surrounding the city? ML: Surround the city, and you go in to work during the day and then you come back out. JJ: The periphery (inaudible) ML: Right. [00:29:00] Yeah. I don't know if it's the same, the impression that I get, that some urban areas, they want to make it very expensive and very exclusive. 17 �And then the workers just come in, do the work, then they go back out. JJ: Exactly. So in Chicago, that is being done where the poor -- ML: Right. JJ: -- live in the periphery. ML: Right. JJ: They used to live in the central city. ML: Right, they used to live in the center, and it's a reversal. JJ: I'm not saying it's the same, but it's similar to -- ML: Yes, it's similar. And so when you, when you talk to Hugh Masekela and, I mean, a lot of these musicians are like very, very open. They'll talk to you and... Hugh Masekela, I saw him playing. He was playing with a guy from Baltimore who also grew up in Harlem. And they went to school together and somebody got him and some more people together. One of the other students, peers, decided do an album [while there?]. So this guy was from Baltimore, and he was over playing with Hugh Masekela. And Hugh Masekela, I mean, he doesn't carry a entourage, [00:30:00] a manager, bodyguard. So I'm there working as a journalist and he's eating dinner. People stop and interrupt him. And I had this guy from Baltimore because I met him earlier. I said, “You know, he needs somebody, a road manager or something, to tell people, you know, he's trying to eat dinner.” He just stops and talks to ’em, shakes their hand. (laughter) He says, “He's always been like that.” Where a lot of people would say, you know, “I'm trying to eat dinner. I can't talk to you now.” But he's very gracious. But in talking to him and listening to their stories, they'll tell you how, let's say if you were in Chicago, you lived in 18 �Lincoln Park, and they decided, you can't be in Lincoln Park anymore. So they came and bulldozed where Hugh Masekela lived, and they had to go out to some township. Well, I met people in South Africa all over there, and in South Africa they had this thing called Coloureds, which Coloureds means that either you're Indian or you're mixed race. And whenever you put men and women together, somebody gonna like each other. All right? So their concept of [00:31:00] Coloured is your father could be, or mother could be, from Asia. And South Africa has a substantial Asian population. So places like Durban, it has a huge Indian population from India. Where Imma say India because India, one time, was bigger where Pakistan wasn’t separated and all that. So, and Gandhi came there. And Gandhi was an attorney and he was all dressed up, and he had a first-class ticket, and they kicked him off the train. That radicalized him because he was an attorney, and like, hey, I paid my fare. No, you can't get in there even though you speak good British English and you’re an attorney, you know. They kicked him off. So South Africa, all throughout there, you find people who their parents had fertile land and they were taken off. They were removed, and they never get the land back. And so back to Zimbabwe, that's a question of what happens when a community has been [00:32:00] stripped of the land which they had for generations. So they become landless, and in many cases, they become impoverished because land isn’t something that you can create. So South Africa is very different. One, like many people at home, most South Africans spoke another language. They didn't speak English at home. So English was a language for school or for business. So their parents might speak Zulu or Xhosa 19 �or Ndebele. Like President Mandela speaks a lot of languages, but his family's language at home was Xhosa. So they do it, actually, with a [key?]. They had (clicks tongue) Xhosa. And so, yeah, he learned a lot of languages, but that might be the language that your grandmother hollers at you or tell you that dinner’s ready, you know. So there’s a question, because it makes it where they had to decide when they [00:33:00] came to power, when the majority came to power, they have, now, 11 national languages. Where in Tanzania, they said they're going to have one national language, which was Kiswahili, and English was a second language, and then they had regional languages. And as a government, how do you publish reports or stories or textbooks in 11 languages? That's very hard and expensive. And so the legacy of colonialism is awesome. And then people start thinking that their language isn't important because the textbook is in English. So why should I, you know, my language isn't important and nobody writes hardly in my -- So there's a big struggle about national language in South Africa, and then all over the world, because, you know, the impact of the British or even, let's say if you're a mechanic and the instructions are all in English, so you got to learn English to repair this motor because the instructions there as opposed [00:34:00] to instructions in Zulu or Xhosa or Ndebele or something like that. JJ: So that's why you named your son -- ML: Gahiji. JJ: Okay. Well, I mean, that's not the only reason. ML: That’s not the only one. 20 �JJ: You were definitely into studying about your culture. ML: Yeah. I have a degree in African-American studies and political science from University of Illinois. I graduated from there. I was born in Chicago. I am a firstgeneration college student and graduate. So my father and mother didn't graduate from high school. My mother got a GED from, which was now we call it Crane Junior College, which now would be Malcolm X Community College. And my father dropped out, and he never went back. And so going to college was a big thing for my parents, you know. It's a big push because my grandparents, [00:35:00] I would think from talking to them, they spent most of their life working. So probably when you're 10 or 12, you start working on the farm full time. And so you drop out of school maybe in fifth, sixth grade. I don't know. Which means that the issue of higher education, even graduating from high school, for many people up to World War Two or until the ’60s, was a big deal. You know, you graduated from high school. Wow, you might be the first one. So I have an uncle that graduated from high school, went to the military, used his G.I. Bill to go to university. And he was the first one in the family. And I know my family's been in this country 200 years had ever gone to college. And he went to University of Illinois Medical Center, and he was a pharmacist. And he had a pharmacy on the South Side. And a lot of people used the G.I. Bill. G.I. Bill is a bill where you go to the army and part of your salary is saved so that you can go to college, [00:36:00] and you get money when you go to college. You might be able to go four years or something like that. Depends how many years you spent in the military also. So a lot of people used that to advance, whether it's a trade or it's a 21 �university education. So my father didn't have that. So for his kids to go to college, it was a big deal. They want you to go to college to do better. And also many of the plants in Chicago weren't unionized. So the trade union movement in Chicago, if you got with some of the unions, like the carpenters union, the plumbers unions, the electricians union, you had a livable wage, and your children could go to school. You could buy a house. You could live in a safe neighborhood. That's where everybody wants. And the non-union plant -JJ: Safety. Everybody wants safety? ML: Everybody wants safety. Everybody wants to know that if their mother, their girlfriend, or their kids are walking home, nobody's going to shoot at them, nobody's going to steal their purse. [00:37:00] You don't want to see drugs dealing on the corner by your grandmother's house, you know. They don't want to be terrorized. And they also don't want police abuse because the police in Chicago have a big history of being terrorists. Where I've been stopped all over this country, and the policemen will act like gang bangers and throw people up against the wall and search you and harass people and have trumped up charges, make stuff, because even if you win, you lose because you spend so much energy fighting them. So that's a considerable amount of energy where you have to spend thousands of dollars to defend yourself. Well, that money could be going towards good, but they have a in-house attorney. And so, politically, they can keep funding that law department and you're using other monies just to defend yourself. [00:38:00] So that's the police. My experience with the Chicago police has not been good. And it was really interesting when I 22 �went to Cuba and I found police that were humane. I'm like, wow, you know, please play baseball with us. They didn't, you know, try to plant dope on me or... One time the Chicago police took me because I was selling Panther papers in the subway of Chicago, which I wasn't supposed to do. That was against the Panther rules. You know, they said, don't do stuff that’ll get you arrested. JJ: You were a member of the Panthers? ML: I was a member. I was a member of Illinois chapter, Black Panther Party. I was community work, and I sold Panther papers in school and after school, and I sold them on the subway, and the police put me in the berry. So that's part of my point. And we're gonna pause now for a second. (break in audio) ML: I think I started associating with the Panthers, it was like a logical thing. [00:39:00] Paul Coates, who is a publisher, who's a Panther leader in Baltimore, has a book called... He wrote an essay in that. He talks about, he's a librarian by training, he says it was logical. He was a marine. He came back and things weren't better. I mean, he had been overseas fighting or in the service. And so some of the defining acts for me was, I remember when Martin Luther King was assassinated, you know, 1968. And we lived on West Side on Van Buren and Springfield. And people was like, a lot of stuff was burning up. And there was apartment buildings burning up because a lot of cases, businesses on the first floor, and apartment buildings on the top. And my father said, “Man, people are burning up their own neighborhood.” A lot of cases was, it’s never been rebuilt. But there's anger. 23 �JJ: What year was this? ML: This is 1968. You know, and you’s like, well, how do you --- JJ: This is after Martin Luther King? What...? [00:40:00] ML: When he got assassinated in April. JJ: (inaudible) So you're talking about the riots? ML: Right, the riot. And the question is, are you hurting or helping yourself? You know, there's anger, but if you burn up your own community, what do you prove? And also, then there's no place to shop. So when I went to college in ’72, we had a professor named Doctor Beverly, and he made us -- he didn't make us. We took a class called interview techniques. He had us go to the senior citizens homes and the senior citizens homes, you know, he taught us how to talk to people who were 70 or 80 years old, how to dress. You don't put a microphone in their face the first time, but he said -- So I interviewed the lady who was here in the 19-teens, and she talked about after the veterans came back from World War One some of these guys were swimming, and Lake Michigan used to have this imaginary line that [00:41:00] if you were Black, you didn't suppose to cross the line. Right? So then, evidently, somebody's supposed to swim across this line and people brick this Black guy who was a veteran and killed him. Right? Or killed this Black guy. I’m not sure if he was a veteran but he was Black guy. So that started a race riot and people were killed. But she said that what happened is they stopped bringing food in the Black community. And in 1919, the Black community in Chicago was much smaller. Right? Because Chicago is a port city, so people migrated here. Chicago is a city that -- Cities are built. People 24 �just aren’t there forever. Like, you know, even 150 years ago, New York wouldn’t be here. So the Black community, in those days, may have only gone to Racine or something like that. And then on the South Side, maybe to 43rd Street or something. So she said they stopped bringing food in the community. And then we also listened to some tapes from [00:42:00] our professor’s elders, he was from Texas, and listening to his uncles and stuff about what happened in Texas, certain things, you know. So you start learning about power. You know, what’s power? Power isn’t just the vote. Power is economics and control of your environment, and I remembered that. And then my other thing that’s defining, that my brothers used to go to Alabama to the farm to be with the grandparents because that’s very traditional that people would send the kids in the summertime, when they’re small and the parents are trying to work and get established, with the aunts of the grandparents or something. And they would keep them and plus they’d like keeping the kids. And I said, “Well, why didn’t I go to the South, mom, like my big brother?” And my mother said, “’Cause of Emmett Till.” And I didn’t know who Emmett Till was ’cause I was a kid. Right? And then she says, “Other thing, you were born in Chicago, so you don’t know how to act like [00:43:00] around white people.” JJ: Who was Emmett Till? ML: Emmett Till was a 14-year-old African American male, whose father was a veteran and got killed in the war, who went to Mississippi in the ’50s. He had [a lisp?]. He stuttered. Okay? And so a technique that many people do when they stutter, they learned how to kind of whistle. Like one of my uncles had a 25 �pronounced speech impediment. So that’s a technique that therapists use. And so it’s told, and I saw some of his relatives when they did a movie, a guy from Louisiana did a movie with the family, that they goaded him. ’Cause he’s the Chicago, he’s the city boy. But people always talk about the contradictions. So if you’re from the country, the city boy comes home, now he’s in your territory, so he’s dumb and you’re smart. Or reverse if you’re in the city, and you’re from the country. Then you gon’ play jokes on that person. All right. So they’re supposed to have goaded him to [00:44:00] say something to this lady who was an adult and married and managed a store, her and her husband owned the store, or relatives, family owned the store, in Mississippi. I think in Money, Mississippi. And he allegedly said something to her, and they think he whistled at her, which, in the 1950s, whistling at a white woman was, like, forbidden. That was a death sentence. So her husband and his brother, or brother-in-law, came to the cabin, which he was living with his grandfather and uncle, and took him. They came with a loaded .45, like 2 o’clock in the morning. They took him, and he’s 14, and he doesn’t know the rules of the South. He knows the city. And in theory, they’re supposed to scare him, and he was supposed to beg. And he didn’t do that. And they beat him, and they killed him, and then they put a chicken fan -[00:45:00] a gin mill fan around his neck and threw him in the river. And they found him several days later, and the sheriff down there tried to bury him immediately, and his mother said no, and came back. Now, there’s is a funeral home owner called A.A. Rayner. A. A. Rayner buried Fred Hampton. He also buried Emmett Till. So in the ’50s, when he came back, his body just stank so 26 �much because it’s been decomposing in the river, that when they opened it up, his mother, like, fainted, and his face was all disconfigured, and you had all this press about that. A.A. Rayner had the funeral there, and they had people all around the block, you know. And so, as a result, many people stopped sending their kids unescorted to the South because they said if that could happen to somebody else’s kid, they didn’t want that happening. So my mother said that wouldn’t happen. So later, [00:46:00] when I got in high school, I got a book on Emmett Till and I’m like, “Oh, so this is what happened.” So that, you know, those are defining acts. And for the parents, that’s a act of survival ’cause they don’t want their kids to get hurt. So that’s what happened there. And then A.A. Rayner, he also was a person that got the Black Panther Party their first lease. He signed the lease for them. JJ: On Madison? ML: On Madison, yeah. So this guy -- JJ: Madison and Western. ML: Madison and Western. The Panther office was 2350 West Madison. And he was funeral homeowner, and at one point he had at least two locations. So he had one on the West Side and one on the South Side. He signed the lease for them. So the Panthers -- because that’s a way, a lot of people do things in support. They may not make a speech, but in a way, that’s a support where this guy is vouching that, you know, every month this rent is going to be paid and utilities [na na na?]. And so [00:47:00] he did that, and I did not know, until I read a second book, that Fred Hampton’s family knew Emett Till’s family ’cause everybody was 27 �out in the western suburbs. They were in [Lisle?], and, you know, people move back and forth. So those are some of the defining acts. I saw Fred Hampton speak. I never met Fred Hampton. He was a brilliant speaker. They used to have rallies down, which now be would called Grant Park. JJ: So what was your impression? You say was a brilliant...? ML: Oh, yeah. Brilliant, articulate, young, vibrant, energetic, charismatic. And many people are trained, or they horn [sic] their skills in various organizations. So some of them do it through the church, some through the NAACP, some through baseball and football, whatever, you know, some through community groups, Black clubs, you know, associations. So he was [00:48:00] very articulate and very, very well read, and women liked him because he had dimples. He was cute, you know. And we went to his funeral. My mother and I, we went to the funeral. No, my mother did not, she was here when Emmett Till died, but she didn’t go to the funeral if I remember, but everybody saw if you look at the regional and Chicago would be the Chicago Defender, but the regional paper’s where I mean. Even Mayor Daley supported the family because this was a travesty. Mayor Daley was the longtime mayor, the senior Mayor Daley in Chicago, Richard M. Daley. Because, I mean, children, a 14-year-old boy is a 14-year-old boy. That’s ha-- JJ: You’re talking Emmett Till? ML: Emmett Till. JJ: Mayor Daley. ML: Where Mayor Daley supported the family. 28 �JJ: Not Fred Hampton? ML: No, not Fred Hampton. JJ: (laughs) ML: So when Emmett Till’s mother came back, he was supportive. I’m not sure all what he did, but [00:49:00] there’s references in terms of a book, and there’s a video about Emmett Till. There’s a movie that from Emmett Till’s mother, [Mabel?] Till, slash because she got married again. They talked about that, you know, that was just like a travesty. How do you kill him? 14-year-old boy. So those are some defining acts. Also, poverty and a little opportunity, a little education, is a dangerous formula because you see the contradictions, and then you start reading and you know they can be better. So just like, H. Rap Brown had a statement in a speech. He said that white people will make more revolutionaries than he ever could. And he said the reason he said that was in Newark, when they had the urban rebellion, the police was so brutal to people, they would just stop and beat up people. And [00:50:00] that changed people because some people are bystanders. So I’ll give you an example. My oldest brother is not a political person, but he was downtown during the Democratic Convention in Chicago in 1968, and he saw that the police was just beating up young people. So you could be walking from work or going someplace to a coffee shop, and, you know, you watching the demonstrations or something, and they were just randomly hit people whether you had long hair, short hair, you were dark, Black, white, whatever. And that radicalizes people. So the experience of going to Von Steuben -- I went to elementary school at Delano 29 �Elementary School which is on Springfield and Adams, Wilcox. And the school was overcrowded so they start building trailers instead of saying, “Well, we need to build a bigger school.” Right? [00:51:00] And you used to see that some cases people stop people’s growth. And then you go on North Side, and you see the school is clean, the neighborhood is clean. You know? Why can’t I live like this? You know, you start questioning that, and you want to change society. You want to change the world. And I think that’s what a lot of that was about. We wanted to change the world. We didn’t want to become the imperialists. We wanted to everybody have a good life. Everybody should have a clean neighborhood. I was on South Side yesterday and where we were, someone had two guards at the door. And someone got shot two blocks down. That’s why the guy -- we didn’t know it. He said that’s why I got it. So nobody (inaudible) craziness coming in here. But, you know, people shouldn’t have to live like that. That’s a genocide in itself where people are constantly getting shot, [00:52:00] you know. And they’re getting shot because somebody throws up a gang sign or somebody bumps into each other or a drug deal or you got my corner and what you call your territory. So some of that is craziness, and it self-perpetuates. So we wanted to change society and have a new world order, and where everybody woulda had equal share of society. And some things have changed. JJ: Who were some of the people that you were working with in the Panthers? ML: Well, it’s the Panthers, but it’s also a long history. So, for example, when you start reading about the Pullman porters, these guys were talking about, you know, “Hey, we should have some dignity as porters,” or the trade unionists all 30 �over the country, whether they were in Wisconsin or Alabama, New York. You know, “Hey, you know, people should get a livable wage. If you have industrial accidents, [00:53:00] you should get compensated, you shouldn’t get fired.” Those are the kind of things that helped build that, and so the question is, what do you want? So, for example, public housing in Chicago. When I grew up, on the West Side, it was all black. So you start saying, okay. So then I went to New York, our cousin in New York. And public housing in New York, everybody has in. I’m like, wow. (laughter) You know, it’s like, you got Latinos, you got Blacks, you got Asians, you got everybody in public housing because public housing. So politically, somebody starting saying, “Well, where would they have?” But also the infrastructure, because public housing in itself is not bad. It’s the maintenance. If you keep up a building you can keep up a 200-year-old building and it looks good. The White House is how many years old? Hundreds of years old. It’s the maintenance. You keep it up. But some of the dynamics of [00:54:00] the elevators and people and young people and, you know, because urine smells bad. JJ: So that’s interesting. So you’re saying that the city, because they were owned by the city, was not keeping up the maintenance. ML: Nope. The projects on the West Side, I almost got killed in the projects on the West Side ’cause the Panthers came and you were assigned to do what we call community work. So I was passing out leaflets in the projects off of Lake Street and in the 20s. So you go down there, you pass out leaflets talking about different programs. And in the 60s, they had this group called the [Mod?] Squad 31 �and they had these big [Mountain Dew?] hat, the Mod hat. And, you know, Malcolm X, in his book, talked about a rule that you’s never supposed to break. When you break the rules, you get in trouble. You’re always supposed to watch the door. All right? Well, in the projects when I was growing up, they didn’t have [00:55:00] fences all the way up to the top. So in some ways, it wasn’t real safe if you had small kids. So people could throw stuff out. So there’s like a chain-link fence that kind of sits out, and I had my back turned to the building. Someone threw a chair seat, the wood part of a chair seat, down. And I guess the wind wasn’t strong enough and it hit right behind me. Fell right behind me. If the wind was a little further or they had got their angle a little further, and if I don’t know what fall went on, but the impact when it hit the ground now, “Boom!” And everybody, “Oooh.” And you look up, everybody goes back in the project building. I might have been a vegetable, you know. But so the question gets to be, does it make sense having people in 13- and 14-story buildings and 10 apartment buildings, 10 apartments on the same floor, and you don’t have good maintenance? [00:56:00] Now, you had the same almost configuration, but it’s not open, all over Chicago. You got 37 stories and people are paying market rate, and it works, but they get good maintenance. So it’s not necessarily just that -JJ: Because, you know, they kicked a bunch of people out of Cabrini-Green. ML: That’s right. JJ: So what do you think about that? Those were low income (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) 32 �ML: Yeah, I think -- JJ: But there was a drug problem (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) ML: No, definitely. I think maybe three flats, so they’re called row houses may work better than creating a vertical village ’cause in some cases, it’s harder to manage. JJ: So you agree with them kicking them out? ML: I don’t agree with drug lords running public housing. JJ: With who? ML: Drug lords. So, like, for example, in Cabrini-Green at some point, you had [00:57:00] some gangs, like -- I’m not going to mention the gang, but some gangs running the projects. And they had it like a military state where they could go from apartment to apartment. They took wholes of floors out, and, you know, if the police come and they’re going to go to 10A they can move everything down to 15B or something. But also poverty on top of poverty is real hard to break, and sometimes people capitalize on that. And the whole drug business can devastate more people than gentrification because, like, on the West Side there are some open-air drug markets off of Pulaski, and you can see the signals and the guys, you know. What’s going on at twelve, two o’clock in the morning. [00:58:00] You got 14-year-olds, you know, it’s business. All you got to do is sit back and watch. So it scares people away because people don’t want to be around that. JJ: So the drug lords should not run the projects. ML: No, they shouldn’t run the project. 33 �JJ: Because they’re affecting the people that live there. ML: Right, right. JJ: But what happens to the people that live there when the projects close down? ML: They get spread out over the community. JJ: How do you feel about that? ML: They get spread out. JJ: How do you feel about them being spread out? ML: Well, I think that’s a reality of not having control, owning the land. So if you don’t own the land, and you’re in this situation, it’s not working, and they tear down this building that has a hundred units in it, they got to go someplace. So they go to Maywood, and they go to Harvey and East Chicago Heights and Joliet and Aurora and all over, which actually is harder to live in because Chicago has tremendously [00:59:00] well-developed infrastructure for subways. In Chicago, you don’t need a car for most places. You can get on the subway or the bus because you’ve got a network that is world-class so you can -- You got six subway lines or something like that. So if you were going to work in Chicago, you could probably get to work in the city on a subway and a bus. But if you live in Joliet, and you’ve got to come to Chicago, you gotta have a car. So it’s a vicious cycle where -- If you have something that doesn’t work, you gotta change it. So I think the idea of public housing was supposed to be temporary after World War Two, where the veterans coming home supposed to go to public housing while they built houses for them, and then it got transformed. JJ: It was a temporary -- 34 �ML: Temporary. So then it got transformed where it was a permanent thing and people, some cases, multiple generations, [01:00:00] and it didn’t work. And I’m going to get an example for urine. Nobody likes to smell a urine. It stinks. And one person urinates in the elevator, and the elevator is used by 200 people a day, unless you’ve got somebody per shift in maintenance is going to clean that elevator if somebody does that, that affects 200 people that use that or 200 families. So you have to have, you know, really good maintenance. And really, I think that the community needs to own it. You know, you can’t have it where somebody else owns it or controls it, where the maintenance people have to be controlled. And they actually need to be superior when you’ve got more young people who use things and may use it in a rougher environment. You know, young kids, when they’re 16 to 18, using their parents stuff, can be rough on it. But when they get 25 or 30 and they own that car, they’re not so rough on the car. But when it’s dad’s car or mom’s car, [01:01:00] they don’t care. So I think that’s an issue of values and usage. JJ: So where did people go after they left Cabrini-Green? ML: Oh, they went out to Melrose, where they call Roseland, and they got scattered. You just disperse it. You not changing the situation. You’re just taking that concentration and you’re scattering it. So, for example, I’ll give you what I know about. You took kids from Chicago and you transplanted them. Well, if they had bad habits in Chicago, they just took the bad habits to Alabama, Mississippi, or Memphis. You know? Or you take kids from New York, and they go back to where their parents were. So in some cases, when people get in trouble, what 35 �you do? You send ’em to grandma ’cause you say, well, better environment. So that’s why the question is, how do we correct the problem as opposed to transplant, transferring the problem? JJ: What do you suggest [01:02:00] [that would?] correct? ML: I would say how do we correct the problem? JJ: How do we correct the drug lord and -- ML: Well, I think one is you -- JJ: And then, you know, getting people away from that and then investing in them (inaudible) somehow? (inaudible) ML: I think you got to get people where, tap their imaginations, where they do things that excite them, that interest them. And also give them an alternative ’cause gangs give you a structure. People like structure. Church is a structure. Gangs is a structure. Political organizations is a structure. You got a hierarchy, you got a culture, you got some camaraderie and some brotherhood and some cohesiveness. Like, we’re going to do this together. We’re going to support each other. So I think that there’s a lot of opportunity in the Green Movement. I think there’s a lot of opportunity where people can have work, livable skills. JJ: In the Green Movement? ML: Green Movement, solar energy, water. I’ll give you the example. Humboldt Park, Garfield Park, Douglas Park, [01:03:00] they’re all beautiful parks. They got lagoons. They got fieldhouses. They got a lot of land. Most of our churches have land, but it’s just grass. So why couldn’t we have community gardens there? Most of our elders know how to garden. They grew up on farms, and 36 �plus it gives them something to do, and then they can transfer those skills to the youth. But if the youth are going to be motivated to do something, they’re not going to sit at home and watch TV ’cause that’s not interesting. We’re social people. We’re pack animals. So people like being around other people. So they gonna hang out with people similar to them. So we’ve got to be able to tap that energy and that imagination ’cause I know people can figure out how to break in anything, but I also know people who can build anything. So the question is how to tap that imagination and do it so it’s good because one of the things I was seeing this rapper named Jay-Z, who’s married to Beyoncé, who’s saying that he was selling drugs, but he realized that there was only gon’ [01:04:00] be two conclusions to that. He was either gonna die ’cause something was gonna wrong because it’s a tough business or he’s gonna go to jail ’cause eventually if you selling drugs somebody either going to tell on you or the police gon’ stop you or something’s gonna happen. So the question is, how do we prevent that? I mean, historically there’s always been drugs. Alcohol is a drug. People have been drinking booze and wine and beer since immoral [sic]. The question is how to make it where -- Maybe we need to look at what’s penalized, but also, it’s a double-edged sword because I don’t think marijuana should be penalized. But then I think heroin is bad and we shouldn’t have -- heroin has devastated Chicago, New York, and all over. JJ: Well, let me rephrase the question. Okay, so [01:05:00] ’cause you were emphasizing drugs and the war, drug lords and all that at Cabrini-Green. ML: Mm-hmm. 37 �JJ: Do you think that the city, their intentions, was it just to get rid of the drug lords or to get rid of that, those people that lived there? ML: Oh, get rid of the people because drugs aren’t just in Cabrini-Green. JJ: Why do you say that? ML: Well, one is land, proximity, you know, real estate people say location, location, location. If you’re a mile of the lake in almost any city, after a while, it gets to be valuable. At one point, it gets, and it’s no longer fashionable. So at one point, Cabrini-Green, the area west of University of Illinois off of Halsted was not preferred area. It was run down. Now, it’s nice. So they want that area back. Just like most areas right around the harbor at one point. It goes in disrepair. It has all run down [01:06:00] warehouses. So the question is getting that area back and putting it to use because it gets to be fashionable ’cause you can’t make land anymore. You never could make land. But people don’t want to be an hour and a half away to go to work when they could be 15 minutes or 20 minutes away from where they work ’cause the jobs are in the core of the city, many of them are. So I think Cabrini-Green and part of the West Side, Imma talk about the West Side in particular, some of it’s been gentrified because of the location and the people who were there were expendable, and they didn’t upkeep it. Everybody’s gotta do upkeep. It doesn’t matter where you are in the world. If you have a stadium, it’s a soccer stadium, football stadium, you gotta upkeep it. You gotta keep it together. I mean, some chairs are gonna be broken. You gotta replace ’em. You gotta do some paint. You gotta fix some bricks and all that. And once that goes down, and I think that was the failure of some of the public 38 �housing and also some [01:07:00] of the -JJ: So they didn’t upkeep the security for one thing. ML: That’s right. JJ: Because I recall when there weren’t drug lords there. ML: Right, right. JJ: So they didn’t upkeep the security. And maybe that was in their -- ML: Best interest. JJ: Could you say that it might have been in their best interest? ML: Oh yeah, because you can -- JJ: To have those drug lords there? ML: Oh, yeah. JJ: Or what do you -- I don’t want to put words in your mouth. (inaudible) P1: ’Cause those buildings weren’t meant to be permanent, and they became permanent. ML: Is that gon’ bleed in? JJ: Yeah. ML: Okay. JJ: (inaudible) P1: It’s a whole ’nother (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) ML: Well, what happens is -- JJ: Did you wanna stop? Or do you want her -- ML: No, I (inaudible) JJ: -- [to come in?]? 39 �ML: The drug lords -- when you’re distracted, when you nod, and all of us are with sin, so I’m not going to say I’m not -- without sin, you may not be dealing with the issue. Right? And I’ve always said there’s very few people in this country to have pilot [01:08:00] license and big boats to bring stuff in from Colombia. So there’s a market. And so, I mean, there’s almost a scene from the Godfather movie that says, “Well, we’re going to keep this in the dark people’s community.” You know? And in other communities, it’s just hidden. It’s in bars and taverns. So maybe people aren’t on the street and giving gang signals and saying, “You want ones, twos, what do you want?” So, I mean, drugs are all over this country. But if you got people that’s doped up, then they’re not a threat. A good example, David Hilliard, who was the chief of staff of the Black Panther Party, talks about in his book that he got a habit, he got a drug habit. He became addicted to drugs, and one policeman came and saw him all doped up. He said, “You know, one point he, this guy was -- we were afraid of him. We were terrified of him. This guy was like really a powerful guy.” But once he got to be a junkie, you know, he wasn’t a threat anymore. So, [01:09:00] David Hilliard, make sure everybody understand, he fought that. ’Cause addiction is a fight. I mean, you know, it’s just like any other thing whether it’s cigarettes or coffee or food. You got to fight it every day. And so he overcame that. But he admits that, you know, it took a lot for him. He had some bad periods. So the question is, how can we prevent people from doing it so we don’t have those results? And then how can we maintain what we have? Because people need housing, and if it’s torn up when it’s 15 stories, it’s going to be torn up when it’s 3 stories ’cause everybody 40 �got to do maintenance. JJ: So tell me more about your work in the Panthers. ML: Okay. I went to Von Steuben High School, and I played basketball. So I was on the basketball team and the cross-country team. And I got interested in politics. So [01:10:00] having had parents that were transplants, that in itself is a political act. When people decide to move -- or it’s economic act. A lotta times economics ’cause people moved because they get a better way of life. And we would go South. So I didn’t realize until like 18, all the dynamics. I knew some of them, but some of them, your parents mask. So we never stopped. You know, and sometimes your parents just gloss it over. Like we would drive from Chicago to Alabama. It’s 14 hours. And the way that your parents do it is, it’s division of labor. So there’s generally a driver and a manager of the children. My father was a driver and my mother was the manager of the children. So on Fridays, or the day before, my dad would be gettin’ the car together. My mother would be gettin’ the food together and packing the clothes. And [01:11:00] on Friday, my dad would come home from work. So he got off, let’s say, at five o’clock. And my dad worked in a machine shop, a non-unionized machine shop. So he got off around 5:00. He would go to bed early, eight, nine o’clock, and we would get up at three or four o’clock, and we’d get on the road ’cause at many times people didn’t have air-conditioned cars. So we’d go in the summertime, generally. And so it’s 14 hours, so if you leave at four o’clock in the morning, you’re getting there at six o’clock in the evening. And until maybe the ’70s, there was segregation in the South, so you can’t stop every place, and eat every place, or even use the 41 �bathroom. So what we had to do was we always took the road on the interstate. And so you take the interstate to Birmingham. JJ: How old were you when you’re describing now? ML: I was up to 16, 18. JJ: And how did you feel about that segregation? [01:12:00] ML: You didn’t like it. You didn’t like it because what you found is that you’re -- JJ: It was a way of life back then (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) ML: It was a life. But see, it was conflict because in Chicago, you learn you got to talk, speak up for yourself. You don’t lower your head ’cause if you lower your head, that means you’re being meek, and you gotta look people in the eye. Otherwise, one, you can’t see what they’re doing, and two, people think that they’re over you. In the South, people become meek, and they lower their head. And some is an act. JJ: Humble. It’s a humble act. ML: It’s a humble act. Yeah. But it’s a act of survival. JJ: Right. It’s an act of survival, also? ML: Yeah. JJ: I mean, we lowered our head it was showing respect for the other person. ML: Yeah. JJ: But here was a different situation. ML: Yeah, if you lower your head in the city, people figure -- JJ: Yeah. You’re being meek. Yeah. ML: You’re being meek and people would get meek. You know, the church talk about 42 �the meek will inherit the earth. Well, in the city, the meek gets kicked in the butt. JJ: Right (inaudible) ML: So you didn’t like it because you saw, like, when you went to the South you saw, really, [01:13:00] a lot of poverty. You know, our parents used to say they ate better in the South because the food came right off the land, but you saw a lot of housing that was really bad. You saw the segregation in the medical facilities. So you saw the schools where... When we’re watching TV as kids, George Wallace was the governor of Alabama, and he says “Segregation today, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever.” Well, the question is, taxes are the same. If you make 10,000 dollars, you fill out your tax forms, you fill out something, or you go to a grocery store and you buy 100 dollars’ worth of groceries, whatever the county and the state taxes, you pay taxes. So why shouldn’t everybody have the same thing? So, you know, you start dealing with that, and you realize it doesn’t have to be this way. And going to Von Steuben, we met students who were Puerto Rican, who were Mexican, who had come from different countries. We met Arabic students. So one of the things that were interesting to us is we met this guy who was [01:14:00] from Egypt. You know, he was a really nice guy, and he was treated like horse manure. We kept saying, “Dad, he just got here. He just got in this country, so why do people dislike him?” We didn’t understand the Arab-Israeli conflict, right? We didn’t really, at that point, initially, understand about Palestinians and being displaced. But we knew that we were in this school, and this guy was a nice guy. He was brown skinned, so in this country, he would be considered a lot of things. You know, ’cause 43 �Arabs, especially on the coast, they’re mixed. Some of ’em look white, some of ’em look Black, some of ’em look brown. In Spanish, they would probably call him moreno. You know? And he was treated bad. And then we had this guy who was Haitian, and he had a French name. Eduardo, I don’t remember his last name. Now he’s a minister on the South Side. We’re like, why are people discriminating against this guy? You know, I mean, he speaks French at home. (laughs) [01:15:00] You know? But we’re here, and we’re supposed to be this really good school. And we also realized that in our situation -JJ: Yeah, who was discriminating? ML: They were discriminating. Yeah. JJ: What do you mean? ML: Well, what happened is you can see who gets assignments and who has access to different things. So, like the importance of holidays. Every culture decides what’s important, and what we realized is like after Martin Luther King was assassinated and they had this big push for the holidays. We remember because we were in a predominantly Jewish (inaudible), the high Jewish holidays, they would be almost official holidays even though they’re not. Most the teachers would be gone, the students would be gone, so the people who weren’t Jewish would be there, and the substitutes wouldn’t really teach. And we like, “Hmm this is interesting. So why don’t we have any holidays for Latinos or for Blacks?” Right? So when they had this big national push for having Martin Luther King’s Day, you know, it got to be interesting. But the defining act for us [01:16:00] in high school was in 1970 when four students were killed at Kent 44 �State, the whole school went out. We all demonstrated in protest. A couple weeks, a couple months later, two students were killed at Jackson State, and the white students didn’t go out. We were, like, really mad. Like hold, wait a second, you need to talk about this. At Kent State you valued that these were students that got killed by the National Guard. Same National Guard, different state, that killed students in Jackson, Mississippi, and you don’t support that. So what’s going on? You know, now people didn’t want to talk about that, but we’s like, “Hey, this is --” I mean, we’re talking about injustice anywhere is wrong, you know. So that was very interesting to us in terms of that broke a lot of alliances because it was it was a very conscious act. Maybe they didn’t know it, and we were all students, but we saw that as betrayal. Yeah. JJ: Sounded like they were a little [01:17:00] political and that sort of -- ML: Yeah, yeah. JJ: Yet, even though they were little political, they still had that prejudice or something? ML: Yeah, because, see, we thought -- JJ: I don’t if that’s the term but... ML: And the issue to us with Kent State was not their color, was the fact that they were students and they were protesting Vietnam War. JJ: Right, they were protesting the Vietnam War. ML: So if you kill people in Kent State, that’s wrong. So the Black students, all the students went out. When Jackson State came, only the Blacks and the Latino students went out. We’re like, “Hey, what’s going on?” You know? And I don’t 45 �remember everybody who was killed in Kent State, but the issue was not about race. We’re all Americans. This was wrong. JJ: Right. ML: You know? JJ: The Vietnam War was wrong. So we were really upset about that. And also the whole emphasis and belief, you know. [01:18:00] Giving your children to people is a very delicate balance. You know? It’s a family issue, but who do you have that teaches your children their values and their language and their skills? I don’t think, if I had to do it again, I would not necessarily go to Von Stueben. The amount of time that I spent on public transportation was awesome, and I’m not sure if that was a supportive environment. I’m not saying that Marshall would have been better. And I don’t know because my brother went to Marshall, and he’s a pilot. So he learned some good skills. But at Marshall, you did have more gangs, there’s more tension. So I don’t know, you know, you made choices. Those are the choices I made, and that’s what I did. And so I’ve learned to make lemonade outta lemons. So, you know, that’s what I did. JJ: What do you mean? What do you mean? ML: Whatever situation you try to build something from it. So, for example, I’m here in my mother’s house and there’s a vacant house next door. I’m gon’ cut all the bushes on her side of the [01:19:00] fence and on the other side of the fence because it’s one community. I could say, “Well, I’m just gon’ cut the bushes on my mother’s side of the fence.” But bushes are bushes. You can’t see into the next yard or they need to be trimmed and maintenance. So I have to maintain, 46 �even though my mother doesn’t live next door, I have to maintain some of that because the house has been in foreclosure probably for five years. And I call every three months, the city. The city cuts the grass and they clean up a little bit. JJ: Next door, you mean? ML: Right. Right. Next door. Otherwise, you would have rats and rodents, and once rats and rodents are there, they’re just going to come in the whole neighborhood. So you gotta do something for everything. JJ: Is there a lot of foreclosures around there? ML: Oh, yeah, a lot of foreclosures ’cause, at one point, in Maywood, they had American Can. That was a big company. JJ: Oh, yeah. ML: People worked there. That closed. And then the question is, can people find jobs to replace that? A lot of times they couldn’t. And then there was some of the auto factories that closed [01:20:00] around here. And also there was a drug problem in Maywood. A friend of mines, two of her sons were killed right ’round the corner. And then one time, one boy was killed ’cause they shot brother A when they were looking for brother B ’cause, you know, that’s what happens with the whole drug business. So Maywood has a problem with foreclosures. They have a problem with drugs, violence, and I assume some of it, lotta drugs is organized, so you have a structure. You know, you have the dealers, and you also have the enforcement. You gotta have control ’cause it’s business. So it’s a difficult thing. In a perfect world, we wouldn’t have this drug situation, but we got it. Now we gotta deal with it. So my concept is try to give young people things to 47 �do that’s constructive, and they can avoid some of that. I mean, are they gon’ get high? Yeah, they still gon’ get high [01:21:00] ’cause people been gettin’ high for eternity. The question is where it does not overcome the community. So, you know, if you can have community programs, literacy programs, athletic programs, industrial programs, learning how to make film, photography, soccer leagues, baseball leagues, you know, all things that people can have a whole 360 degrees environment. Like, for example, when I grew up in Garfield Park, we never went in the park after night. When it was night, if I was coming someplace, even when I was an activist, to this day, I don’t walk through Garfield Park at night. Not by myself. No, that’s no man’s land because what happens is you could be mugged. You know, you could be a tough guy, but tough guy is not anything but four other guys and they got guns and knives. So [01:22:00] I would either walk around the park the long way, or you have to walk on the street above the park where the buses are because if you walk down in the park, the park is dark. So, you know, Garfield Park and Humboldt Park, a lot of them are natural, really nice resources. The question is how to put them to good use. And that’s a struggle. That’s a struggle. Imma say something about Spanish. What I found is that, you know, language opens up doors because also languages, it’s concepts. And the more languages you speak, the more you’re in tune to cultures and environment. So Langston Hughes was a poet. He went to Spain and became good buddies with Nicolás Guillén, [01:23:00] who was the poet laureate of Cuba. But what happened is Langston Hughes’s father was an attorney in Cleveland, and he didn’t like the United States. So he left, like many people. When they don’t like 48 �some place, they leave, especially if they have some opportunity to leave. So his father lived in Mexico City most of his life. So in the summers, Langston Hughes went to Mexico. Now his Spanish wasn’t good. He never said it was good, and Nicolás Guillén said it wasn’t good. But he could function. So he went to Spain in the 1930s, late 1930s, as a reporter that covered war against Franco, the Mexican Republic War in Spain, the Republican cause. A lot of people did all over the world. And that’s where he met Nicolás Guillén. And that opened up some more of the Americas to him because he became a longshoreman so he could travel to war. So he went to Europe and went to Soviet Union and all these places, and he wrote about what he saw. But [01:24:00] inadvertently, because his father lived in Mexico, he got to be functional in Spanish. He never went to school in Spanish. And then he could talk to Nicolás Guillén, and Nicolás Guillén translated some of his poetry from English to Spanish because he had certain rhythms and the Cubans had certain rhythms. So every culture has certain rhythms that are germane to that environment. So I think it’s important that people acquire as many languages as they can, like as many skills. And I took Spanish, actually, in college, and it helped. But what I saw ’cause some of my neighbors on the West Side were from Belize, and so their mothers would speak to the family in Spanish, especially when the mothers wanted to holler at them or didn’t want them to know what they were saying. They would speak to the aunts in Spanish. And then when I was in high school, we saw people who were Africans American who were bilingual. So okay. And then I started meeting people in [01:25:00] college whose first language was Spanish and then English 49 �was a second language. (break in audio) JJ: So we’re talkin’ about language. ML: When I got to University of Illinois, the Black Panther Party had a cadre. All right? And so they tell you which professors were progressive and who you should take. So some of the ones they mentioned were Doctor Blout, James Blout, who was a geographer. And then there was Doctor Peter Knauss. He was the political science department, and other people. And so Peter Knauss, he wrote a book called Daley, Chicago: One Party State. And the university didn’t initially give him tenure and the students was like, rebel, they were striking and all this. JJ: Because of the book? ML: Oh yeah, because he was saying that Chicago was like a dictatorship. JJ: Okay. And who was this? ML: Peter Knauss. He’s dead now. He died of AIDS. But he was very progressive. And then he wrote about Ben Bella in Algeria. And so he was like -- JJ: So he [01:26:00] said Chicago was a dictatorship under Daley? ML: Yeah, under Daley. He wrote it out and he, you know, he’s a scholar, so he wrote it all out and he said that Daley, the way he ran it, he could be a dictator in any country ’cause he had a system. And he wrote about Ben Bella in Algeria. And James Blout wrote about agriculture and economics. So he’s the one that really taught us about land use. You know, he was saying, “You gotta look at how farmers look at stuff.” And then he wrote stuff about where was capitalism 50 �developed. And he talked about different port cities all over the country. So he expanded our horizon, and he was a good scholar. Both of ’em were good men. JJ: But the party was saying these are certain people you should -- ML: Yeah, yeah, you should take because -- JJ: Did they have a listing of people or...? ML: Yeah, it was like a informal thing, but they would tell you who... I mean, whatever your major was, you gotta take these courses, but you also want to take these professors ’cause [01:27:00] these professors helped broaden your experience. And what the party did was made you read. You had to read everybody. So we read Che Guevara. We read Pablo Freire, the Brazilian, about literacy. We read Amílcar Cabral, West African. We read about Mozambique. We read Engels and Marx. We read Hegel. We read Russian philosophers. We read Chinese philosophers. We read about the South. And so they expanded because they said that, you know, to understand Chicago, you gotta understand the world ’cause all that comes together. Right? So I met [DeBlout?], we got to be friends. And that’s where I learned about Don [Viso?] Campos. JJ: Don Pedro Campos? ML: Don Pedro Campos. And he was the head of the nationalist movement. You know? And I didn’t know anything. [01:28:00] I didn’t learn that in school. And they started to say, well, you should come to these meetings and come to this. And you learn about the history of Puerto Rico and you learn more about the history of Dominican Republic and Haiti and stuff. As an anecdote, this is a true story. At one point, Hollywood decided they were going to make a movie about 51 �the Haitian Revolution, and they were going to have Anthony Quinn work, be the character for the leader of Haitian Revolution. The leaders of the Haitian Revolution, some of ’em was Toussaint Louverture and Dessalines. Okay. All these were former men who were enslaved. Anthony Quinn’s a good actor, but he doesn’t look like that. (laughter) So you could find somebody else that looked like him, but they were gonna have them, you know, and that. And people say, “Oh, no, no, no, no, you can’t do that.” You know, when they write the history, when there’s movies about Puerto Rico, there’s actors that should represent that history. So you don’t need to have somebody that probably doesn’t speak Spanish and does not [01:29:00] portray that character. I mean, I understand about The Old man and the Sea, you know, even though there’s Hemingway wrote that novel, and there’s two different people played that guy. I don’t know ’cause that’s fiction. But Toussaint Louverture was a African man, and Anthony Quinn was an Irish, Mexican-American. And he’s a great actor. And he’s played a lot of roles, but he shouldn’t have played that one. The NAACP, a lot of people said, “Oh, no. Hell no. We’re not gon’ do that.” So that stopped that. Because what happens is you start getting historically inaccurate figures. So DeBlout wrote a lot of good stuff in terms about, not just this country, but about the world and expanded ’cause you had to say, okay, so what does this mean about the port cities of the world. You know? And Knauss wrote about Ben Bella and about Algeria and what’s the successes and the failures? ’Cause everybody has successes and failures. And [01:30:00] so I joined the organization called Puerto Rican Solidarity Committee, PRSC. So I started going to different meetings and 52 �learning different people, and they had a place on the north side called New World Resource Center. And [Cindy?] was there and a lot of good people. I don’t remember everybody’s names now. And you learn about information. And then I went to Puerto Rico. First time, I went on a tour for a couple weeks, and it was interesting. It was interesting seeing similarities, difference. A lot of things in Puerto Rico are totally not like United States. I mean, one, the national language is Spanish. Now, the United States can try all they want to, but you’re talkin’ about basically you had to cut people’s heart out for them to stop speaking Spanish because that is the national language. It’s like my mother, if I went to Germany, she’s still going to speak [01:31:00] English ’cause that’s her first language, and that’s how she thinks, and that’s how she cooks and all that. That’s intrinsic. And Puerto Rico is different. It’s not the United States. I mean, you can see Puerto Rican communities here, which is an extension, but it has a different beat, a culture, a different national identity. And I think that’s one of the things that, when you come to United States... Many of the Puerto Ricans told me, you know, “In Puerto Rico, I’m Puerto Rican. In the United States, I get to be this, that, and the other, all these subcategories.” You know? And they didn’t like that. Or, “I get to be exotic.” You know, in Puerto Rico, I’m just Puerto Rican.” Okay? I went to Utado and Vieques and Cabo Rojo, and we went to the Grito de Lares. JJ: (inaudible) ML: We went to Old San Juan. In Spanish, they call it San Juan. They don’t call it Old San Juan, that’s a English thing. And when we went to Vieques, that was 53 �really interesting because Vieques is different from the other island. Every island is different, but the whole military presence is awesome. I mean, it’s like, you can see it. It’s like this huge U.S. Marine or Navy base, which is now is not over, but when you have something, some cases, that is just like having anything that’s polluted. It takes a long time to clean it up, you know, and the military presence. And also, a lot of times, young soldiers aren’t necessarily good for the environment. You know? I mean, they’re rough, they destroy a lot of stuff. So that was interesting and also realizing you’re so (Spanish) [01:32:55 - 1:33:10]. So it was difficult, you know, understanding everything. And sometimes you miss stuff, you miss subtleties because your Spanish isn’t deep. But also, some things are reverse where some public universities are the elite, and the private are the secondary. You know, the whole thing the University of Puerto Rico. And you saw, like, the waterfront areas of Puerto Rico. Some of those are in real need of repair. You know? They’ve been in disrepair for a hundred years. But also the culture. So it was very interesting seeing Puerto Rico. And then also, when I went back [01:34:00] the second and third time, I was on my own, and I would catch the bus. And sometimes, I would get lost because I couldn’t understand the bus driver because my Spanish wasn’t good enough where, you know, I go ask the bus driver for directions and he would speak, and he was speaking clear Spanish. I couldn’t understand. I was like, “What did he say? You speak so fast.” You know? I went to the grocery store, and I had to get (Spanish). And I would get confused when I went to get a [key made?], you know, and they’re like, “This guy doesn’t speak good Spanish. Where are you 54 �from?” So it was good, but it showed me some differences, and I understood also another level of white migration because my parents moved from the South because they wanted a better life. And so you saw public housing and San Juan, you saw drugs in San Juan, you saw a fast pace in San Juan, but you also saw a lotta beauty, a lot of beauty, a lotta culture, lotta pride, lotta emphasis on Taíno [01:35:00] culture. So one time I got lost, and I walked all over to San Juan because I didn’t want to ask the bus driver for directions anymore, but I could figure my way how to get back. So it took me an hour, hour and a half to walk, but it was okay. And then I went to Cuba. And the first time I went five and a half weeks, and I didn’t wanna come back. If they had let me stay, I would have stayed. You know, I was like, “Yeah.” And it was interesting and very different. I didn’t see the racial tensions. I met a lot of people, and I was able to move around by myself. And I met Black Cubans, white Cubans. I met Cubans. I went to block parties. People dancing is dancing. People all over the world like to dance and they like to drink rum and party and eat well, you know. So all that’s, if you can -- everybody functions at that same level. I met a lot of foreign students who were in Cuba taking classes, medical school, engineering school, or whatever [01:36:00] school. So then you learned that you had to really work on your Spanish because then Spanish is their language for which they’re communicating because they may come from El Salvador, but they might also come from Guinea-Bissau. So that was a good experience, and... Yeah. Sometimes you wonder, what would Cuba be like and Puerto Rico be like if they were associated with United States? Cuba, a lot of times they had to get stuff 55 �from Venezuela, Argentina to get to Cuba. They’ll buy flooring towel because they can’t buy it from Miami. And they had to spend so much money on national defense. What would it be like if they didn’t have to spend that? JJ: When was the first time you heard about the Young Lords? ML: I heard about the Young Lords because the Young Lords and their association with the Black Panther Party. [01:37:00] Chicago is a segregated housing stock, but people moved back and forth. And also young people, like in our school, there was a woman who lived on the South Side was totally bilingual. So she was African American, but she basically hung out with the Latino students because she spoke Spanish. Her daddy was a Spanish professor at Northeastern. So we assumed that her mother was Latino. We never met her mother ’cause, you know. We met her dad because her dad was a big-time professor. And she went to the University of Puerto Rico for college. Right? So the Panther paper, and I wrote for the Panther paper, the Panther paper encouraged chapters to send stuff, and they had a creative page. I used to submit poetry to the Panther paper, and they would have articles about different parts of the country. And so Young Lords and the Panthers and Rising Up Angry, Young Patriots, I’d use them [01:38:00] in combination. Had a association, a alliance, a union, a fellowship. So that’s where I heard about them, because I always read the Panther paper. And people model successful programs after each other. So the idea of the Panthers programs with the breakfast program, to me, extended from the long history of people taking control of an environment. So when you looked at Cuba, they had a literacy program. 56 �When you looked at Mozambique and Angola and Guinea-Bissau, when they kicked the Portuguese out, then they tried to set up somethin’. So you gotta set up schools. You gotta set up food distribution. So when the Panthers came up with the breakfast program, that made sense because there was a need. And in the programs about sickle cell anemia or free health clinics ’cause there’s a need. Or even on the North Side, they talked about black lung. [01:39:00] Lotta coal miners have issues with their lungs because of the smoke. And if you’re a coal miner, you’re a coal miner, whether you from Appalachia or you from Alabama, you know. You’ve been in those mines all those years and you’ve got black lung. That’s affecting your health. So I think the Panther programs were modeling after that because there’s a rich history of that. And that’s why going back to Pablo Friere, he was Brazilian, but they talked about how to learn, how to teach people learn, and why to learn, and what does education mean. Because, some point, kids are turned off. Like, I took French in school and I didn’t think it was important ’cause I figured I would never go to France. Now I’m gonna think like, “God, I wish I had taken French more seriously.” Because our life experiences was Chicago to Alabama. Me going to Montreal or Haiti or France was just not in the view, you know. But maybe it would be in my son’s view. And then, too, is interesting in popular culture. In Shaft, they talk about the Young Lords. (laughs) JJ: In where? [01:40:00] ML: There’s a movie, Richard Roundtree, Shaft. JJ: Oh, I didn’t know they talked about -- 57 �ML: Yeah, there’s a whole thing about, you know, “What’s going on? Is it the Panthers? Is it the Young Lords?” Because the Young Lords in New York and Chicago was a significant movement. So what we saw was that the Panthers have a structure. Every organization has a structure, and we borrow from that, about how to organize. And the breakfast program, we all learned from. So I worked on the breakfast program on the West Side, like at the Better Boys Foundation, and I would do it on days that school was out or somethin’ like that. And I think what happens is, you know, we just start learning ’cause what happens is the public schools in Chicago didn’t teach us about Latin America. I mean, they didn’t teach us about Africa or the South. It was just this kinda sterile version of the history of the world. And then you start picking it up because, let’s say, [01:41:00] I met people in the Puerto Rican Socialist Party. And this lady named [America Santini?], or [Mecca?] Santini. JJ: (inaudible) ML: Yeah. And then you start picking up stuff about Puerto Rico and its history and what happened in 54 and people who were in prison for 40 years because they had an operation in Congress. They were rebelling. And what does that mean? You know, what does that mean the history of the world? Why do people do that? You know, ’cause that’s not the first time in the world people have done stuff. They did stuff because they’re saying, “We don’t agree with what’s going on. And we don’t want to be--” And also, like, Mecca told me about on Don Pedro Albizu Campos. I didn’t know about him. I didn’t learn about that in school. And so then you start reading about him, and sometimes it sinks in later. 58 �You know, you go back and you say, yeah. You look at him and you look at his family or you look at [Antonio Maceo?] or [Amiro?] [01:42:00] Zapata. JJ: Emiliano Zapata. Yeah. ML: Yeah. And you start looking at why are these people in struggle? What’s the history of the world, and how it all interconnected, right? And so that probably helped get my interest into going to Puerto Rico. And I’m trying to think, had I gone to Cuba? I went to Cuba in ’77, and in between ’77 and ’83, my second trip I had gone to Puerto Rico. JJ: Final thoughts? ML: My final thoughts is that it’s one world. Like in a onion, we got layers of it. And the more that we try to cooperate and understand each other, the better it is. And each day, if you can try to do some good acts to make the world better, and to sustain it. And to be honest, and look at [01:43:00] the world as it is, not how you imagine it is. And take it from there. And enjoy the sunshine. (laughter) JJ: Yeah. ’Cause it’s raining. Yeah. END OF VIDEO FILE 59 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3a0164dc47be0b9ccefef2e7953fc7bb.mp4 7a25a7a1b31dd639dac4bb19b4f2f988 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Melvin Lewis vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Afro-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Lewis_Melvin Title A name given to the resource Melvin Lewis video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lewis, Melvin Description An account of the resource Melvin Lewis was born in Chicago but today lives in Fayetteville, North Carolina. His parents live in Maywood, Illinois. This is the same town where Fred Hampton of the Black Panther Party (BPP) grew up. It is also where, at Maywood’s City Hall, there is a recreation center with a swimming pool named after the slain leader of Chicago’s BPP. There is also a street named “Fred Hampton Way” and a bust of Chairman Fred Hampton. Mr. Lewis is a Chicago Black Panther and freelance writer, a master gardener and certified beekeeper. His recent articles include “Out Loud and Into Print” in the May/June 2012 issue of City View (NC). He writes on music and his publications include features on “Hootie and the Blow Fish,” and singer and song writer “Rene Marie in Pluck!” He has written and broadcast twelve vignettes about civil rights for FM Radio stations 107.7 and 91.9 FM and conducted interviews on horticulture, history and art. Mr. Lewis has also won the Significant Illinois Poet Award and is a graduate of the University of Illinois at Chicago. He is currently assisting with the Chicago Black Panther History Project. Their motto is, “ We will tell our story, in our own words; Illinois Panthers speak for themselves.” Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) African Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-08-26 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/65e4fa90b551daf302f4f605c12f1632.pdf 1540a035cd167c081a4da38789840edc PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Carmen de Leon Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/14/2012 Biography and Description English Carmen De Leon is a Young Lord who grew up in New York City and today lives in Loíza, Puerto Rico. A strong advocate for women, Ms. De Leon worked closely with Young Lord Richie Pérez on a range of education and youth centered programs. In her oral history, she recalls her days working with the Young Lords. Ms. De Leon discusses how the Young Lords were infiltrated by government agents and how “ideology” was utilized to factionalize and create divisions within the Movement, including encouraging takeovers, discrediting, and purging leaders. She vividly describes members being taken hostage as well as how she herself was purged from the Young Lords. Her interview provides important insights into how these repressive tactics were carried out and how they ultimately destroyed the connections between the Young Lords and the barrio base. Spanish Carmen De Leon es una Young Lord que creció en la cuidad de Nueva York y ahora vive en Loiza, Puerto Rico. Soportará fuerte por mujeres, Señora De Leon trabajo cerca con el Young Lord Richie Pérez en programas de educación para jóvenes. En su entrevista comparte sus memorias sobre los días que trabajo con los Young Lords. Señora De Leon habla de cómo los Young Lords fueron infiltrados por �agentes del gobierno y como “idolología” fue utilizado para nublar y hacer divisiones dentro del movimiento. Esto también incluye soportando unos que tomen poder y descreditando los líderes. Con vivacidad describe como los miembros fueron tomados como rehén y como ella misma fue purgada de los Young Lords. Su entrevista nos da una prospectiva importante en cómo estos tácticos fueron pasados y últimamente destruyo las conexiones dentro de los Young Lords y el barrio. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: (inaudible) the same as (inaudible). Ready [John?]. P1: Recording. JJ: Okay, go ahead. CARMEN DE LEON: My name is Carmen [Iris?] de Leon [Quiñones?]. I was born on August 13, 1955 at Bellevue Hospital in the Lower East Side of Manhattan, New York City. JJ: Okay. And who were your parents? CL: My mom, her name is [Paula?] Quiñones. And my father, his name was José Antonio de Leon. JJ: (inaudible) were they also born in New York? CL: My father was born in Juncos, Puerto Rico, and my mom in Gurabo, Puerto Rico. But they did meet in New York. JJ: They met in New York? CL: Yeah. JJ: So what year did they (inaudible) CL: My mom was 16 when she arrived to New York, and she’s 79 now. JJ: [’30?] or something? CL: Yeah. Yeah, she [00:01:00] got to New York, I believe, like 1949, something like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. JJ: And your father also came? CL: He was there. I don’t know what year my father... 1 �JJ: (inaudible) CL: I believe so, yeah. JJ: And what about your other siblings (inaudible)? CL: They’re all in New York. JJ: I mean how many? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) CL: Oh, okay. I had five sisters and two brothers. JJ: (inaudible) their names (inaudible) CL: My oldest sister, her name is [Inez?], a brother named [David?], a sister named [Nidia?], myself, sister named [Marixa?], sister named [Evelyn?], sister named [Josephine?], and a brother named [José?]. JJ: And you said the Lower East Side of Manhattan? CL: I was born and raised in the Lower East Side of Manhattan. JJ: Coming from Chicago, I have no idea [about that?]. What is that like? [00:02:00] CL: The Lower East Side, it’s the lower part of Manhattan where a lot of immigrants resided there for work. And so a lot of Puerto Ricans, besides going to El Barrio in Manhattan, they also resided in the Lower East Side. JJ: So it’s part of Manhattan, so (inaudible) Square, that area? CL: Okay, it’s not far from there. JJ: Not far from (inaudible) Square, that area. CL: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Delancey Street housed in that area, close to Chinatown, not far from Little Italy. JJ: So what are your first memories? CL: My first memories of the Lower East Side, as a child, it’s so funny because to me, 2 �all the Spanish people that I knew were Puerto Ricans. [00:03:00] (laughs) That was it. And everyone worked. You know, that w-JJ: What kind of jobs? CL: Sewing. My father, he was a welder. My mom didn’t work. She took care of the kids. But everyone else, if you were not sewing, you were doing some sort of manual labor. JJ: What was the housing? (inaudible) CL: The housing, well, we never lived in projects, but my parents always rented apartments, which were like 35 dollars a month. So we lived on Ludlow Street, which is in the Lower East Side. We lived on Sherriff Street. JJ: How many bedrooms (inaudible) CL: Two bedrooms, three bedrooms. And they were very, very big and very nice. JJ: I know at one time they had a bathtub in the (inaudible) CL: Yes, my grandmother lived in an apartment [00:04:00] where the bathtub was in the kitchen and the toilet was in the hallway. JJ: (inaudible) CL: And they were like a railroad train type of apartment. You had, like, the kitchen, then the living room, then the room, so they look like a train. JJ: Like if you were in the (inaudible) CL: Uh-huh. JJ: But they were good sized? CL: Some small, some fairly large. JJ: So what was the grammar school? Grammar school? 3 �CL: Grammar school. JJ: Where did you go to grammar school? CL: I went to P.S. 160. When I started school, it was in first grade. JJ: So when they say P.S. 160, I’m not clear on (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) CL: That’s an elementary school. JJ: Yeah. But I mean are all the schools called by number? CL: Public schools, yes. Well, in the Lower East Side, yeah. JJ: Is that (inaudible) CL: Well, I have no idea because we didn’t really live anywhere else. JJ: But they were all called by numbers? CL: By numbers, yeah. JJ: So in the school, it was all Puerto Ricans or...? (inaudible) CL: There were a lot of Puerto Ricans, [00:05:00] yes. But there were no Spanish teachers at that time. And, like I said, when I started school, I started in the first grade. JJ: Puerto Rican speaking Spanish or...? CL: Yeah. Puerto Ricans speaking Spanish. JJ: (inaudible) Spanish (inaudible) CL: Yeah, ’cause when I first started first grade, I didn’t speak any English. JJ: Where would they (inaudible) were they there (inaudible) Like what city did they (inaudible) CL: No. Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. To me, everyone was all the same. The parents spoke Spanish. 4 �JJ: Like, culturally, were they from cities or from the country, the rural area. CL: Oh, that I don’t know. That, no. No. JJ: But they had (inaudible) generation. CL: I believe like me, you know, I was the first generation. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) the late ’40s? CL: Yeah. JJ: (inaudible) late ’40s [in the end?] because I know (inaudible) Puerto Rico (inaudible) 19... [00:06:00] CL: Yes. JJ: But there was a big immigration in late ’40s. Is that what you’re saying? CL: Uh-huh. I believe that the Puerto Ricans that migrated here in the early 1900s mostly went to El Barrio. JJ: So that’s the old (inaudible) CL: Uh-huh. Yeah, because Tito Puente, he was born and raised, and his parents were, like, there. JJ: Yeah so there were (inaudible) Okay, so El Barrio was the older -- CL: Yeah. JJ: -- Puerto Rican section. CL: Mm-hmm. JJ: In the 1900s, so now the Lower East Side, there’s a new body that is forming? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) CL: Well, to me, you know, I never thought about that as a child, really. But I did know that the parents did not speak English, so if they didn’t speak English 5 �obviously, to me, they had just -JJ: So the most of the people didn’t speak English? CL: No. JJ: So they had to be new. CL: Yeah. [00:07:00] JJ: There was a new wave -- CL: Uh-huh. JJ: -- of immigration in that area, the Lower East Side? CL: Uh-huh. JJ: Okay. So remember, what are some of the stores? Bodegas (inaudible) CL: The bodegas owned by Puerto Ricans. JJ: What kind of (inaudible) CL: No, we just called it the bodega. I remember, where I grew up on Ludlow Street, the bodega, you would find [verdura, aguacate?], everything that you needed to cook Puerto Rican food. The rice, the beans. And it used to strike me kind of strange because he used to put hay on the wooden floor. JJ: Oh. CL: (laughs) JJ: In Chicago, they had hay (inaudible) used to say it (inaudible) because they used to put hay on the floor (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) CL: Especially when it rained. JJ: I don’t know why they did that. CL: No, no. [00:08:00] 6 �JJ: But the name bodega -- so what, Ludlow you said (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) CL: Ludlow Street was a fairly commercial street, mostly for Jewish store owners. And they sold a lot of figurines. Beautiful, expensive figurines. But there was just one bodega. JJ: So were there a lot of Jewish store owners, was there Spanish food and stuff like that? Spanish products? CL: No. JJ: Or were there Puerto Rican stores owners? CL: The Puerto Rican store owners were the bodega y la carniceria, the meat market, that was on the corner. JJ: Okay. So you went to P.S.? CL: 160. JJ: 160. And how far did you go in that school? CL: ’til the sixth grade. JJ: Okay, the sixth grade. (inaudible) CL: Well, that’s the first time I saw Bozo. JJ: Oh, okay. [00:09:00] Bozo the Clown? CL: (laughs) Yes. JJ: (inaudible) CL: I was like, oh. JJ: Now you see him and (inaudible) CL: That’s where -- 7 �JJ: He came to the school or...? CL: Yeah, he came to the school to visit. That’s where they sent me to speech class because, since I didn’t speak English, you know, they thought that I had just gotten there from Puerto Rico. So they sent me the speech class ’cause I couldn’t pronounce some of the English words the way they wanted me to pronounce it. JJ: So they had a special speech class? CL: Yeah, for a lot of us. JJ: For a lot of people? CL: Yeah. JJ: ’Cause other people, like, some people they would put back a grade. CL: Yeah, I was put back of grade as well in the fourth grade. Miss [Elwood?], I remember her clearly. JJ: Okay. Then you were also in a speech class? CL: Yes. JJ: And there were other (inaudible) you there? CL: Yes. Yes. [00:10:00] JJ: What about your friends and then what kind of social life? CL: Well, school friends, when we went to school and we played recess, Double Dutch, jumping rope. JJ: Double Dutch (inaudible) CL: You know, tag with the boys. JJ: Okay. So what about high school? 8 �CL: I didn’t go to high school. JJ: Oh, you didn’t go to high school? CL: (laughs) No. JJ: Oh, okay. (inaudible) CL: I went to the Young Lords high school. (inaudible) JJ: You went to the Young Lords high school? Okay, what was the Young Lords high school? CL: Well, let me first tell you how I got there. Again, like I told you, I was growing up in the Lower East Side and drugs was kinda very rampant in the neighborhood due to -- JJ: What kind of drugs? CL: Heroin -- JJ: Heroin. Okay. CL: -- mostly. JJ: What year was this? CL: ’70. JJ: ’70? CL: ’71. JJ: (inaudible) was all over [00:11:00] (inaudible) CL: Gentrification. JJ: Oh, gentrification, that’s... CL: Yeah, this was the beginning of -- JJ: Yeah, but you went from drugs to gentrification (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) 9 �CL: Yes, because -- Okay. Well, that’s why the drugs were put there because of the gentrification. And what they did was -- JJ: What do you mean? CL: Okay, they had a plan for the Lower East Side, and we were not included in the plan. So you have to first get rid of the Puerto Ricans that were there in order to execute the plan that they have now. JJ: Who is they? CL: The government, the rich -- JJ: The city? CL: -- the city. And so what they did was they -- JJ: Are you talking about the mayor or the alderman (inaudible) CL: Yeah, whoever was controlling it. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) who are you talking about? CL: Well, I’m talking about whoever wanted this gentrification, and planned and executed. JJ: Somebody had a plan, but it was a plan. CL: It was a plan. JJ: Why do you say it was a plan? CL: Because, after so many years, we see the results of the plan. [00:12:00] The Lower East Side is totally a home -- JJ: It looked like it was set up in a way that... CL: Yes. And so what they did was they infested the neighborhood with drugs. JJ: They came in with drugs? 10 �CL: Well, yeah. What they did was -- well, it was easy, accessible to get the drugs. So kids who didn’t have, they started to deal drugs. It was easy to get. So if you don’t have any money, and you wanted money, well, then you deal drugs. JJ: (inaudible) everybody was selling and there was no police trying to stop it. CL: No. JJ: Is that what you mean? Something like that? CL: Yes. JJ: I mean, that’s what you’re saying? CL: Yes, yes, yeah. The police were not really doing much about the drugs. They were very easily accessible to the kids. JJ: Okay. To the kids? CL: Yes, I was only 15, 16 years old. JJ: You were 15 or 16? CL: Yes. JJ: And then you started using drugs at 15 or 16? CL: I [00:13:00] started to experiment, yes. JJ: (inaudible) not snorting? CL: No, just the snorting. I never shot [sharps?]. JJ: You never fooled with that? CL: No, no, no. And at the same time, the youth was getting very, very fed up of what was going on in the Lower East Side. The Vietnam War. Our male friends were being drafted to the... JJ: You’re talking about street youth or college youth? 11 �CL: Street youth. Nobody was thinking about going to college. JJ: Okay, so they were upset. There was no college. CL: (laughs) No. JJ: There were no colleges at that time? CL: Yeah, there were colleges, but -- JJ: But [not enough motivation?] (inaudible) CL: -- no one was thinking about going to college. JJ: There was people in the street (inaudible) CL: And so, you know, we would take the garbage and we’d go burn it, and the whole social... JJ: But was this, like, before the Young Lords you were taking garbage and burning it? CL: Well the Young Lords were already -- ’cause in [00:14:00] ’70, ’71, the Young Lord’s Party was formed in New York. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) CL: But there were other little groups coming about, like Movimiento Latino, that was in the Lower East Side. Carlos Feliciano, his case was something, you know, very big at that time in New York where they had placed a bomb in his car, etcetera, etcetera. JJ: Right, so that was big and a lot of people were talking about that? CL: A lotta turmoil. And we were not gonna take that. JJ: And then there were people talking about the war too or...? CL: Yes. 12 �JJ: On the Lower East Side, there was a lot of political work going on? People passing leaflets and stuff like that or...? CL: Yes. Yes, there were. See, it was a dual type of thing because the drugs were always there, and then on the other side, this was happening too. A lot of us were becoming rebellious against our parents, against the establishment. And so [00:15:00] I was becoming more aware. JJ: Against the parents? What do you mean? CL: Well, yeah, because, you know, our parents come from a generation that you do as you’re told. Where our generation -- JJ: So when you say a lot of others, you’re talkin’ ’bout women? CL: And the guys. JJ: And the guys. So, you got the parents that are telling you, “Do as you’re told.”? CL: Exactly. Don’t say a word. JJ: Yeah, and they’ll say you’re rebelling against them? CL: Yes. And the establishment as well. JJ: (inaudible) CL: Well, yeah. We would hit the streets, you know, we would go hang out, we would go do a whole lotta cra-- JJ: Hang out where? CL: Well, I used to go to this place called the [Latin House?] on Hester Street. JJ: What happened there? What was that like? CL: We would all come together, listen to music. At that time, the music was a lotta slow jams. The (inaudible), The Stylistics. And that started to become more 13 �[00:16:00] of a family. And so, again, the question of money was a big issue for kids, or for us then. And so when the Young Lords had the parade that they took over the front of the parade. That really -- I was so impressed behind that. I went. JJ: How did that happen? Because I wasn’t familiar with that. How’d it happen? The regular Puerto Rican parade? CL: Parade and the police used to march in front. JJ: (inaudible) CL: And so the Lords felt that that was not right. The people should march in front. JJ: Police shouldn’t march in front. CL: Exactly, and so we were gonna take it over. I wasn’t a Lord then, but I wanted to be a part of that, and so I went. And while I was there, my father saw me. And so I was fighting my [00:17:00] father and the police at the same time because my father was going to kick my butt. I was only 15 years old. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) CL: Yes. And they were not too keen with the Young Lords. They felt that that was a gang. JJ: Your father? CL: And my mother. JJ: But they thought it was a gang? CL: Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and like I said, our parents’ generation come from, you do as you’re told. And you don’t say, you just do it. You don’t question it. You don’t do otherwise. 14 �JJ: So you guys took it over? Took over the front of it? CL: Well, there was a big riot. People got hurt, hit. The parade was -- JJ: Anybody got arrested or...? CL: -- stopped. People got arrested. JJ: People got arrested? But, I mean, did you eventually take it over or no? CL: No. JJ: Or just got (inaudible) CL: It was just a lot of craziness going on. JJ: So if it was stopped, it must have been a [00:18:00] (inaudible) CL: Yes. Of course, yeah. Yes. Mm-hmm. But, you know, when I saw my father, I was more scared of him. (laughter) JJ: I can deal with the police. (inaudible) CL: Exactly. JJ: (inaudible) Okay, so what other things that are going on? CL: Okay, so I start rebelling at home, like I was saying. You know, I would go to the streets and there was, like, hang out. There was no sense of direction in my life. I was just bouncing off the wall. And my mom, after us, you know, with the hard hand. It wasn’t let’s sit and talk and let me explain, I’m gonna hit you for what you’re doing. And so one day I got home about eight o’clock. When I got home, I got severely punished physically [00:19:00] because this is the way... JJ: Your mother or your father? CL: My mother. My father, they had separated. JJ: Split up. (inaudible) 15 �CL: So the next day -- JJ: Now all your sibling was living in the house (inaudible) CL: Yeah. Mm-hmm. JJ: The next day, what happened? CL: So then the next thing, I had gone, sometime before, to court for Carlos Feliciano, and I had met some of the members of the Young Lords, and I was like really impressed. You know, these -- JJ: What impressed you about them? CL: They looked like they had a direction, that they were going somewhere, that this is what it should be. And so, you know, I had met them, etcetera, etcetera. So, okay, I went home, whatever. So one day, a friend of mine says to me, “Well, listen, you know, I have a friend, and he has some drugs. You want to start dealing and make some money?” And I’m like, “Wow, yeah, why not? I can use a couple of dollars.” And so we were on the corner [00:20:00] of Hester and Forsyth Street. So there’s a park that goes from Houston all the way down to Canal Street on Forsyth. So this was Hester and Forsyth. And I was with this girl named [Elena?]. And we’re waiting there, and the guy just doesn’t show up. And we’re waiting. And the guy doesn’t show up. So it must have been about four o’clock, and I see this group passing by. And I see this guy that I had met at the courthouse for Carlos Feliciano. His name was TC, or is TC, [Tony Copeland?], who became my future husband. So as they’re walking by, I recognized him and he recognized me. And so he, well, you know, we were very happy to see each other. So he says to me, “What are you up to?” And I’m like, 16 �“Nothing.” Well, of course I wasn’t going to say here I’m waiting, [00:21:00] you know, to do something really bad. So he says, “Why don’t you come with us? We’re going to [Yihequan?] to see this movie.” CL: Yihequan is -- JJ: Yihequan? CL: It was a Chinese group and they were located -- JJ: (inaudible) CL: Dealing drugs. JJ: Oh, dealing drugs. Okay. So he walked in... CL: Okay, so he says, we’re gonna go see (inaudible) at Yihequan. So I says, “Yeah, okay. I’ll go.” And it was about four or five o’clock in the evening. So I left, and I didn’t do the thing about picking up drugs and dealing the drugs. Well, the movie was great. I think we were watching Women Hold Half the Sky, and we had a really great time. I don’t remember who else was there, but I do remember my future husband was there. So it was about nine o’clock. And I am like, “What time is it?” He says, [00:22:00] “It’s nine o’clock.” I’m like, “Oh my god. If I go home now, I’m really -- they’re gonna kill me. JJ: They’re gonna kill me. CL: So I says to him. “Can I go with you guys?” And he says, “Well, yeah. If you want to.” So I ran away with him and the Young Lords. So I call my sister and I says to her, “Nidia, I’m not coming home. I’m safe. Just let mom know that I’m safe.” So I went up to the Bronx, Cypress Avenue. 141st and Cypress. And so, the next day, Tony, you know, TC as he was known back then, takes me to the 17 �storefront or the office. JJ: Now you’re staying with TC -- CL: Yeah. JJ: -- himself or with -- CL: Oh, no. JJ: -- the other Young Lords? CL: Okay, no. [00:23:00] He was sharing an apartment. They were called collectives at that time. JJ: Okay. What are collectives. What is that? CL: Collective meaning several people lived together. It wasn’t just a man and a woman, or a man and man, or woman and woman. There were several. There’d been several couples, several friends. JJ: They were, like, couples. They weren’t (inaudible) CL: Yeah. Yeah. So it was him, [Lucky Luciano?], who’s [Felipe?] Luciano’s brother. JJ: Oh, Lucky Luciano? Okay. CL: Uh-huh. A girl that he was with then, and myself and Tony. JJ: And you were living together in that collective? CL: In that collective, yeah. Yeah. JJ: How did you pay them rent and stuff like that? CL: Oh, he paid the rent. JJ: Oh, he paid it? Okay, so [continue there?]. CL: So, that was September of 1971. JJ: (inaudible) September of 1971? 18 �CL: Well, it was late August beginning September [00:24:00] that I ran away that I ran away with Tony and the Young Lords. And so, a few weeks later, you know, I continued to call my sister to tell them, you know, that I’m fine. My mom was hysterical and, you know, I was so young. So my sister knew where I was, and she knew with whom I was with. And so, about three weeks later -- no. About a couple of months later in October. October 15, 1971, my father was killed, and so she needed to get ahold of me. JJ: How was he killed? CL: He was stabbed in a social club. They were drinking and one thing led to another, and a friend of his, in fact, that was raised with him here in Juncos, Puerto Rico, [00:25:00] stabbed him. And so when my mom tells my sister, then now she has to tell my mom where I am because she has to go get me to go to a funeral. And so I remember, I think it was a Sunday about seven o’clock in the morning, it’s a knock on the door. So Tony gets up and he goes to answer the door, and he’s in his underwear. And when he opens the door, it’s my mother. And when, you know, he comes and he says, “Carmen, your mom is there.” I totally freaked out. I said, “Oh my god, I’m in trouble now.” And so she was very, very, very serious and very upset with me too. And so she said to me, “Your dad passed away.” And I looked at her and I said, “So what am I supposed [00:26:00] to do, cry?” ’cause I lived a life very angry with my father. JJ: (inaudible) Why? CL: Well, because he was very abusive with my mother. He had a lot of issues. JJ: What do you mean? Hit her? 19 �CL: Yeah, he would. Yeah, physically -- JJ: [Violencia?]? CL: -- abuse of her. Yeah. So anyway, I left with her. And we did the whole funeral thing with my dad and whatever. So after all of that was over -- JJ: What do you mean the whole thing? CL: Well, you know, going to the funeral with the family. They buried him here in Puerto Rico. We didn’t partake in that. You know, there’s, like, this family feud. I was all right with that back then. I was so upset with him. It was like a relief, if you can understand. JJ: (inaudible) to get rid of your father? CL: Isn’t that a horrible thing to say? It’s just for my mom, you know. JJ: (inaudible) he was [close to?] your mom? CL: ’Cause he would -- Yeah. Yeah. [00:27:00] JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) CL: Very, very close to her. JJ: (inaudible) CL: So I went back home, and she thought that I was going to stay at home. And I said to her, “I just can’t do this anymore. You know, to me, I want to be there. You know, I want to change the world. I feel that that’s where I belong.” And so I went back to live with Tony and to become a Young Lord. JJ: While you were there living with Tony, you were still in the collective? Or no? CL: Yes. Yes. JJ: You were still living in the collective together. 20 �CL: Uh-huh. JJ: So what were some of the work that you were doing? What was some of the work? CL: With the Young Lords or...? JJ: Yeah. CL: Well then, [00:28:00] of course, I met [Panama?] at the time. I met [Augie Robles?]. I finally got to meet [Yoruba?] because he was in China during the time that I had -- JJ: (inaudible) China at that time? I was in China too. CL: With him? JJ: No, no. In the late ’70s. CL: Oh, okay. I met [Richie?]. But before my mom went (laughs) to get me, because she didn’t know where I was, she knew that I was with the Young Lords. So she took the police to the national headquarters in El Barrio to demand that they return her daughter. And, of course, they didn’t know that I was in the Bronx. They didn’t even know who I was. So they must have had a shock when they saw the police. (laughs) JJ: So she thought that the Young Lords [00:29:00] were taking you hostage or something like that? CL: I guess. Yeah. JJ: Okay. Now you said, Richie. What do you mean you called him Richie? Richie [Bredas?] CL: Richie Bredas. Yeah. (inaudible) Well, I knew that Richard was a teacher, that 21 �he taught typing. I know that he was the minister of defense or information. JJ: I think he was information minister. CL: Yeah. Minister of information. Yoruba, I was, like, in awe of him, you know. You’ve gone to China. JJ: You were in awe? What do you recall? I mean, he went to China? CL: Yeah. I remember him being a very, very serious individual. I had met [Mickey Melendez?]. We had gotten involved with, or they were -- JJ: What about Mickey? What are your thoughts about Mickey? CL: Mickey was very serious man too. JJ: Okay. Very serious? CL: You know, [00:30:00] they were all very serious. (laughs) Like, “Ooh!” Then again, I was only 16 years old. I was so young. JJ: You met Augie, you said? CL: Augie, we became the best of friends. JJ: What do you mean (inaudible)? CL: She became my (Spanish). [Auga?]. I liked her a lot. She was very staunch in her beliefs. Richie and her were together at that time. JJ: They were living together in the -- CL: Yeah. Uh-huh. I met [Iris Morales?]. JJ: Thoughts about her? CL: Iris Morales, I used to like her a lot back then too, and, I mean, I still like her today. [Valerie?], [David Perez?]. JJ: (inaudible) 22 �CL: Did you ever meet David Perez? JJ: David Perez? Yeah. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) CL: Okay, well, he was -- his companion. JJ: (inaudible) Did they call it (inaudible) [00:31:00] or...? CL: At that time, we called it, yeah, companion. JJ: (inaudible) CL: Yeah, we didn’t... Yeah, exactly. JJ: (inaudible) CL: Yeah, no. No one said wife or husband. You said, you know, companion. JJ: (inaudible) At Chicago, we had an underground [training for people trying to get?] (inaudible) collective, but we didn’t use companions. We used brother and sister (inaudible) CL: Oh, okay. Mm-hmm. We used brother and sister too, but, I mean, in terms of relationships, you know, “That’s my companion.” JJ: I gotta tell you (inaudible) term. CL: (laughs) It’s a good term. JJ: (inaudible) So tell me something about Tony (inaudible) CL: Tony. JJ: Yeah. CL: Like I said, I met Tony -- JJ: What impression (inaudible) CL: Well, I found Tony to be a very handsome young man at the time, smart, [00:32:00] and he was very friendly. And so we sparked a relationship that lasted five 23 �years. I have two children by him. JJ: What are the names of your kids? CL: My oldest son’s name is [Damien Copeland?]. My second son is [Eric Copeland?]. JJ: (inaudible) CL: Eric Copeland. JJ: Eric Copeland? Do they live here with you? CL: No, they live in (inaudible) JJ: What kind of work (inaudible) CL: Who, Tony? I believe Tony works for a union. I don’t recall. I mean, we have, really, no contact, and he’s into some sort of a -- JJ: Oh, you’re not together? CL: No. Oh, no. No, no. Our relationship lasted five years. JJ: Five years? CL: Yeah. JJ: So, how (inaudible) CL: Oh, well, that was 15 years ago. I had met someone else [00:33:00] when I was 38. JJ: You’re with someone else now. CL: Yeah. Uh-huh. JJ: Okay. (inaudible) 15 years ago, you (inaudible) CL: Uh-huh. JJ: (inaudible) 24 �CL: My life is good here. I’m into more spiritualism, more -- JJ: (inaudible) CL: Yeah. JJ: (inaudible) CL: No. No, no. JJ: (inaudible) CL: More the way of the yogi, the way of the monk. JJ: (inaudible) what, the yogi, the...? CL: More into working on my inner self so my externals could be in a better place. JJ: Okay (inaudible) I’m just kind of trying to think of a way to understand (inaudible) [00:34:00] So this is not like (inaudible) CL: No. It’s more like Tai Chi, more connecting yourself with the universe, with divinity, with the light. JJ: (inaudible) something like that? That’s the only thing I know. CL: Okay. JJ: So it’s more like that? Something similar to that? CL: It’s called the fourth way if you’ve ever... JJ: I’m not familiar with it. (inaudible) CL: Uh-huh. Well, you can Google it. JJ: So can you explain what (inaudible) fourth way or...? CL: Well, yeah. It’s more on working on yourself so you can be a better being so your being can grow. Because once your being grows, then everything around you will also change and grow. 25 �JJ: Sort of like [00:35:00] (inaudible) CL: Oh, he needs five minutes? (Spanish) JJ: (inaudible) P1: Well, I mean, you guys sound -- (break in audio) P1: And whenever you’re ready. JJ: You could tell me a little bit about Richie. We were talkin’ ’bout Richie Bredas. CL: Well, Richie, Richie was always laughing. A person who was a very happy, happy individual. Always laughing, cracking jokes, and serious as well and very smart. Very, very smart and people respected him. He carried that because he gave respect. [00:36:00] Didn’t matter how old you were, ’cause I was a young whippersnapper. And a very, very giving individual. I had gotten the opportunity to live with him, his companion Augie at the time, and Tony, who was my companion at the time. And we shared a lot of good, good times. And again, he was very, very, very good. JJ: (inaudible) CL: Well, he was with Auga at the time. JJ: Oh, okay. CL: And I was the Tony, and we made up the collective. JJ: So you were living together in the same collective? CL: Uh-huh. Exactly. JJ: He was a giving person and -- CL: Always laughing. 26 �JJ: ’Cause he was information deputy? CL: Uh-huh. JJ: So [he was in the?] -- CL: And he worked hard and he had a good job. He had gone to college and -- JJ: What kind of work (inaudible) CL: A teacher. JJ: He was a teacher? Okay. So he was a teacher, he was a Young Lord. CL: Uh-huh. JJ: (inaudible) CL: Yes. [00:37:00] JJ: So he was doing community work at the same time? CL: That’s one thing about the Lords back then. That we were always in the community. People knew us. People bought the (Spanish). They knew us. We went door to door. You know, it wasn’t, like, an organization that locked itself up and talked a lot of rhetoric, which that did happen later on. JJ: But not at that time? CL: Not at that time. JJ: At that time it was (inaudible) CL: Out in the street and we were organizing. JJ: Talking to people in the neighborhood? CL: Exactly. And Richie was involved in organizing a lot of students. JJ: Students? CL: Yes. 27 �JJ: What school was he working at? CL: Well, at the time, he was still a typing teacher. So you know, at -- and what was that organization’s name? [00:38:00] Aspira. JJ: Aspira, Aspira. So he was worked with Aspira, with the schooling groups and that? CL: And he had recruited a lotta students as well. JJ: He definitely did a lotta work (inaudible) CL: He did a lot of work, yes. JJ: (inaudible) worked with Aspira. CL: Yeah. JJ: So we were talking also about PRRWO (inaudible) Puerto Rican (inaudible) CL: It was called Puerto Rican Worker Revolutionary Organization. JJ: And who were the leaders of that? CL: [Gloria Fontanez?]. JJ: (inaudible) CL: Yes. The Central Committee. JJ: Where did she come from? Oh, the Central Committee was part of them? CL: Yeah. It was still, everyone there except Yoruba, [Juan Gonzales?], David. Okay. So the Central Committee consisted of Gloria [00:39:00] Fontanez, her cousin, [Carmen Cruz?], I believe Gloria’s husband, [Don Right?], who we all, then later on, believed that he was an agent. JJ: Why did you believe he was an agent? CL: Well, I mean, you know, I don’t have like documentation -- 28 �JJ: [You mean a rat?]? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) CL: -- but everything that happened once this individual came into the picture just led to all of that. The Young Lords then felt that they needed to organize the workers. We needed to become a more of the workers organization than just a community, lumpenproletariat organization. JJ: So they wanted get away from the [metropolitan?]? CL: Yes. And so we -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) CL: -- needed to be more ideological. And so we needed to be more ideological, we needed to be more Lenin, more Stalin, more Mao. And in order to do that, we had to change our name, [00:40:00] and so they did. They changed the Young Lord’s Party to the Puerto Rican Workers Revolutionary organization, PRRWO. And so, at the time, we linked up with a group called the MLN from Chicago. And they would come to New York and we would have these crazy debates. I mean, these seminars with these crazy, crazy debates. And when I mean crazy, it wasn’t about I’m gonna teach you and you’re going to teach you, no, I’m gonna put you down and you’re gonna put me down. It looked more like a war to me. JJ: Criticism and self-criticism? CL: It was more criticism than self-criticism. (laughs) JJ: I know, that’s what -- you know, the (inaudible) something similar. That’s what they were explaining to us. CL: So then that didn’t work. You know, MLN went their way. JJ: So that’s Movimiento por [00:41:00] Liberación Nacional? 29 �CL: Uh-huh. That didn’t last too long. They went their way. PRRWO went their way. Still looking for affiliation. Then they found the Revolutionary Union, R Union. JJ: (inaudible) CL: Majority white organization. And that’s when this individual Don Right comes into the picture. JJ: So he mighta just been a member of Revolutionary Union. CL: Yeah. JJ: Maybe he wasn’t an agent, he was just...? CL: I don’t know. It could be. JJ: (inaudible) CL: It could not be. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) CL: All I know is a lot of crazy stuff started to happen after that. We would go to meetings. We no longer were in the community. So we had severed the ties with the community. JJ: Okay. What does that mean, that you were no longer in the community? CL: We were more in meetings debating with one another, with each other, about how wrong you are, how right you are. [00:42:00] And then it became very rigid. If you differed, then you were under attack. You could not differ because then you became the oddball, and you were under attack. And those were the things that were happening to me back then. JJ: But if can hold that thought first. CL: Yeah, okay. 30 �JJ: (inaudible) you became rigid. The whole (inaudible). But now, you said that you were no longer with the community. CL: Yes. That meant that we no longer went to the community to organize. We no longer had those -- JJ: You weren’t going door to door. You weren’t doing any -- CL: Or those health clinics or the -- JJ: Were you doing any programs or anything? CL: No programs. We weren’t doing anything. JJ: Just talking? CL: Just talkin’. Exactly. You know -- JJ: Did you get into the -- CL: -- still building the structure of the -- JJ: -- about Marx and Lenin? Did you get into the (inaudible) CL: Exactly. And that... JJ: Because before, I mean, the Young Lords -- I read books about Marx and Lenin. We (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) CL: No, no, but this was -- JJ: But now it was all Marx and Lenin and nothing -- CL: Nothing else. JJ: -- about the community. CL: And if anyone disagreed -- JJ: That was just a different line. CL: Mm-hmm. [00:43:00] And if anybody disagree, or when they had these heavy- 31 �duty debates in the Central Committee and they purged someone. You know, like when they purged Juan Gonzalez, when they purged -JJ: They purged Juan Gonzalez too? CL: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: (inaudible) CL: And they purged Yoruba. So Yoruba left -- JJ: Yoruba they purged (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) CL: Iris had to leave because she was the wife, and when they purged David Perez -- JJ: The wife of who? CL: Of Yoruba. JJ: Yoruba (inaudible) CL: Yeah, at the time. JJ: (inaudible) CL: No. (inaudible) JJ: So that all started (inaudible) CL: Yoruba. And then, when they purged David Perez, Valerie had to go, too. JJ: So wait a minute, they were purging all the Central Committee? CL: Anyone who disagreed. JJ: But it looks like David and Yoruba and -- CL: And so what happen-- JJ: -- people like that, they were Central Committee members. They were purging the Central Committee. CL: And so what [00:44:00] started to happen in the body of the organization, most of 32 �the members started to leave because then it was no longer that zest, that passion to go to the community, you know, to become one with the community. JJ: Let me get this. Anybody that kind of was helping the Young Lords (inaudible) as leaders of the Young Lords were being purged at that time? CL: Can you repeat that? JJ: Most of the leadership was being purged? CL: Yes. Yes, yes. JJ: The old leadership of the Young Lords. CL: And so back with Richie, Richie was on the Central Committee. And at the time, we thought that was the right thing. So yeah, we started to even mimic or even believe some of these things until it just continued to happen. JJ: Some of these things? What were they saying? What were they putting forth? CL: Okay, like, let’s see. [00:45:00] It’s just like, let’s say, for instance, if at the moment they believed that we were not a party, we were an organization. That became the hot issue. Or which way were we gonna suppose to organize the factory workers? JJ: Okay, hold on a second. So we were not a party, and we needed to become a party? CL: No, an organization. JJ: We need to become an organization. (inaudible) back to globalization? Okay. All right. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) CL: I don’t know. See, because remember, now, this is the Central Committee and these meetings, you really didn’t know because, you know, this was like -- 33 �JJ: The Central Committee was here and you were here? CL: Yeah, exactly. (laughs) We were here and they were up there. JJ: (Spanish) CL: Uh-huh. (Spanish) And now that you [00:46:00] talk about that, Gloria Fontanez, I grew up with her family. I didn’t know her. JJ: Yeah, what was she like? CL: Okay. Well, let me just say. I grew up with her family. Her brother was my best friend when I was 14, 15 years old in the Lower East Side. We hung out in the same places. When I get to the Young Lords, then I find out that she’s related to these people that I used to go visit her mom, eat at her house, you know, share, and you all her brothers and sisters, but I did not know her ’cause she had left. She was way older than they were and she had left way before I came into the picture. Gloria was -- JJ: But what were her brothers and sisters like? CL: They were really nice. They all knew how to dance. That was something. JJ: Lotta dancing (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) CL: In the Lower East Side, you had to know how to dance some mambo. JJ: (inaudible) Oh, mambo. You didn’t do [split?]? You didn’t split? CL: No, no. Mambo. You had to dance Latin. You know? JJ: (inaudible) did the mambo (inaudible) CL: They were really good people, humble people. JJ: Humble people? (inaudible) CL: Yeah. I used to love her brother [00:47:00] dearly, dearly, and he got caught up 34 �with the drugs as well. JJ: One of her brothers, Gloria Fontanez? CL: Yeah, Gloria. JJ: So she was really, like, community (inaudible) CL: Huh? JJ: She was really before that community? CL: Yes, yeah. JJ: And then just get into (Spanish). (laughter) Nah, I’m just joking. I mean, ’cause the spiritualism (inaudible). So she got really involved in the ideological? CL: Yes. I mean, to the point that when they would do this thing, it was so insulting. And that started to turn me off. I would say to myself, “Oh my gosh, so what is it? You can’t express your opinion, your view? If you have a different opinion or something then that means you’re the bad guy?” So they had placed my husband, or my ex-husband, Tony in the Central Committee. And honestly -- JJ: Of who? CL: Of the PRRWO. [00:48:00] And I really thought that he wasn’t ready for Central Committee stuff. So I was wondering what was going on. But then again, okay, fine. He and Richie were arguing over something, and he never even said to me what, but they were in real hot water. So one day he comes home from a meeting and he says to me, “Things are really hot.” And I kind of felt it every time I would go to a meeting. And now, this time, Richie is married to [Diana Caballero?]. JJ: (inaudible) 35 �CL: So, you know, things were not going well in these meetings. And you kind of, like, sense when things are not right. But my husband comes home and he says -- JJ: What do mean you sense it? What are you sensing? CL: Hostility. JJ: You mean instead -- CL: And afraid. JJ: of friendship, hostility, [00:49:00] fear? CL: Yeah, among the [conjoint?]. JJ: Among the conjoint? They’re scared (inaudible) CL: Scared. Afraid to voice an opinion. JJ: Of what? They would be ridiculed, [but not included?] CL: Ridiculed. Well, no, not yet. Well, I never thought that things would ever get to that point. JJ: So they were being ridiculed for that kind of thing? CL: I would say shut down. JJ: Shut down. They were being (inaudible) CL: Exactly. Then you became the outsider. JJ: So you’re saying that (inaudible) CL: Exact on that. You know, you’re dangerous. Where you coming from? JJ: Are you an agent or something? CL: Exactly. JJ: So the agents are asking the agents, “Are you an agent?” The agent is saying, 36 �“Are you an agent?” CL: Yeah. It was all part of COINTEL. JJ: I don’t know if they were agents. I’m just saying that. CL: Yeah, I know. Well, but they were doing the job that COINTEL wanted to be done. So anyway, [00:50:00] my husband comes home and he says to me, “Things are not well in the Central Committee, and I’m a real hot water because I don’t agree.” He said, “Me and Richie are in hot water because we don’t agree with certain things.” And I already knew that Richie was not happy because he was the not happy person that he used to be when I met him and throughout the years that I had known him. So we used to have meetings on Thursday. So that Thursday, no, Wednesday, my husband comes home and says to me, “I’ve been purged from the Central Committee.” JJ: [Told him to come home?] CL: He tell me that he was purged. JJ: Did he say why? CL: He didn’t say why. He just said, “’cause I was not in agreement with what was going on.” So Thursday we were supposed to have a meeting with the conjoint, [00:51:00] and I was going to attend, Diana, and some other members of this committee. But something came over me. There’s such a bad feeling, and I said, “You know what, Tony? I’m not going to go to this meeting.” I’m gonna call these people, and I’m going to pack everything that they ever gave me, and I’m gonna tell them that they can come and pick it up downstairs.” Because they already knew that since they had purged him, I was going to be purged to 37 �because it had happened with Yoruba and Iris, it happened with David and Valerie. There was already a pattern. So I didn’t go. In not going, Diana went to the meeting. So she gets kidnapped at this meeting. JJ: Diana Caballero, you’re talking about? CL: Diana Caballero. JJ: She’s kidnapped at the meeting? CL: Well they take her against her will to keep her against her will to keep her hostage [00:52:00] in somebody’s apartment, her and Richie. JJ: So they had, like, [the own deal?] or...? CL: Well, you see, since I didn’t go to that meeting, and I know that if I would have gone to that meeting, they would’ve taken me too. JJ: But I mean they took her hostage, so in other words, [they’re posted?] in their own safehouse. CL: Yes, exactly. JJ: [Gone forever?] or whatever. CL: Exactly. JJ: (inaudible) well-organized group to have a deal like that. CL: Yes. JJ: (inaudible) CL: Yes. And, and I’m talking about people that Richie knew for years that slept in his home, that ate his food. JJ: So these are people that Richie knew? So they were not (inaudible) these were just people that (Spanish)? 38 �CL: Yeah. They were very -- Exactly. JJ: (Spanish) CL: But yes, they were (Spanish), they lost their mind. They really lost their mind. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) CL: Because then they tortured him. They turned cigarettes off from him. They beat him. You don’t do that to someone [00:53:00] who... JJ: But then if they’re like that, somebody’s getting stuff [in their head?]. CL: Exactly. Richie became the traitor. He became the bad guy. JJ: Somebody’s feeding them -- you don’t know who? CL: Exactly. Well, COINTEL. JJ: Because most of the other people were people, they grew up together (inaudible) CL: Yeah. JJ: Somebody else has been (inaudible) CL: Exactly. JJ: And they’re part of (inaudible) CL: Well, no. They were not there. No. JJ: Oh, they’re not (inaudible)? CL: These were our own people. JJ: Our own people from the (inaudible) So somebody’s interested in being (inaudible) CL: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. So, I’m devastated because now these are new people, but then they had also recruited some new people that we had just barely knew. And I had just given birth to my second son, he must have been eight 39 �months old. So I got a call from a female, one of them, stating to me that whatever they gave me for a baby shower, that they wanted it back. [00:54:00] Well, my street stuff from the Lower East Side, of course, came out. I was like, “You can take it all. And don’t you ever...” JJ: (inaudible) CL: Exactly. “Don’t you ever come here again. Ever again.” And so this was April 1976. Heartbroken, young girl from 16. I’m 21 years old now. Two kids. No direction because the direction was -- my life was the Young Lords. I go to Auga. Auga was working in Gouverneur Hospital on the Lower East Side. And she was my -- JJ: (inaudible) CL: (inaudible) She was my (Spanish). Someone that I loved. Loved her for many, many years, respected her. And it was so important for me to tell her [00:55:00] and to let her know that what they were saying was not true. Because then what they did was, is that they wrote this article in Palante stating that Richie Perez, Diana Caballero, [Felix Flores?], [Lydia Flores?], Tony Copeland, and Carmen Copeland, that’s how I was known back then, were meeting to overthrow the Central Committee. In the five years that I was in the Young Lords, not once did these three couples ever meet together alone. Ever. And never to talk about overthrowing the Central Committee. They had, or so they said because this is what came out in the Palante article, Lydia Flores, [00:56:00] she was the one that came forward and said that we were meeting. JJ: You were what? 40 �CL: Meeting. That the three couples -- JJ: Lydia Flores (inaudible) CL: -- were meeting to -- Uh-huh. And meanwhile, this young woman at the time, we used to share. They had a child, we had a child, we used to share, we used to go to the park together, we used cook dinners on Sundays together. JJ: Lydia Flores? CL: And her husband Felix. JJ: So she grew up with everybody else? CL: She was in student Aspira, part of the -- JJ: Student Aspira, but she didn’t grow up with anybody else? CL: Yes and no. Because in the beginning was Aspira, and then later on, it was the PRRWO. Felix did, he also came from Aspira, but I think he had more of the Young Lords because -- JJ: He was Huracan’s brother. CL: -- Huracan’s brother. JJ: Yeah. Felix (inaudible) CL: Okay, Felix. JJ: But not Lydia. CL: Not Lydia. JJ: (inaudible) [00:57:00] CL: Yes. JJ: (inaudible) CL: But, you know, these are things that hurt a lot, I mean, because when that 41 �happened, my husband and I, we split up right after that. JJ: But let me just, you know, say ’cause we had members in our group that we grew up with. Right? (inaudible) that doesn’t matter when -- whether they grew up or not. CL: Anyway, getting back to Auga. I wanted her to know that this was not true, that we were not doing that. So I go to Gouverneur. I muster up the nerve to go and see her. I was just afraid of her doing what she did. Because when she seen me -- I go, she was working in emergency. When I go there, I’m like, “Augie, I’m here to tell you that it’s not true. [00:58:00] You never even asked me. Does that matter to you?” She just turned and just walked away. JJ: What was her name again? CL: Auga [Goga?] (inaudible) JJ: She didn’t answer you? CL: She didn’t, no. JJ: (inaudible) CL: She stood with the PRRWO. You know, she stood with them ’til the end. ’til the end. JJ: Because you had purges of the members (inaudible) CL: Said I wasn’t going to stay with -- You know, okay, I got purged and everything, when my husband w-- I had already decided I could not do this anymore. You know, I could not be in an organization that was like that. This was not the Young Lords. JJ: It was not the original Young Lords that (inaudible) and you were very scared? 42 �[Marxist, Leninist?] CL: Doing horrible things, no. No, you don’t go around beating people like that. No, no. You just don’t. After that, to get a hold of Richie and Diana [00:59:00] was like mission impossible. Because, again, we wanted to write something in response to what had happened, and we did. We did do it. I don’t even have a copy of that ’cause after, you know, we moved -- JJ: But more or less, what did it say? CL: That it was not true. Oh my god, we took Gloria Fontanez and Carmen Cruz, and we also like dragged them in the street. You know, we were so upset with them. JJ: (inaudible) CL: How dare they? JJ: What kind of (inaudible) CL: Okay, you know, several things were not true. JJ: These are just feelings or...? CL: No, we had facts. JJ: (inaudible) CL: But I just can’t, like, you know. But it was a pretty large, you know, and I’m still trying to locate that pamphlet so I can read it and refresh my memory in what had happened. JJ: But basically, you were [01:00:00] saying what? They’re not relating to the people or...? CL: That we were, that the turn that the Young Lords Party had taken was not a 43 �correct turn. JJ: It was not a (inaudible) CL: That we had criticized so many groups in the movement. JJ: The turn of going to work with the workers? CL: The turn of changing its name PRRWO and divorcing itself from the workers and the community ’cause we were not doing proletarian organizing or anything like that. We were stuck in rooms doing (inaudible), you know, I don’t agree with you, you don’t agree with me, so I’ll kick your ass and you’ll kick mine. That’s what it was all about. JJ: (inaudible) saying that that was (inaudible) CL: But then throughout the years, after I left and of course after, you know, you can’t have an organization with one person. So you’ve got to dissolve the -- because eventually other people who have been there from the beginning, like [Miriam?], [01:01:00] had to leave too. And then throughout the years I ran into her, I ran into other people, I ran into people who hurt Richie, who regretted it, and they were, like, in a frenzy at the time. JJ: What were they saying about Richie? What were they trying (inaudible) CL: During the time that they beat them up? JJ: Yeah. Yeah. Well, what is the beating? We didn’t (inaudible) CL: Oh, okay. Well they turned cigarettes off on him, they hit him, they kept him against his will. JJ: Did you see this or...? CL: No, ’cause then Richie came out, and Richie told us. And the persons who did 44 �this. JJ: So they put cigarettes on him? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) CL: Yes, turned the cigarette off on his skin. And the person who did it, he came out and he said it. He regretted it. JJ: Who was that? CL: Oh, gee, I don’t know if I should. JJ: Say it? That’s all right. Okay, you don’t -- It’s not important. Okay. You don’t want to say an identity? (inaudible) [01:02:00] CL: But Richie forgave that person. P2: (inaudible) Panama. Panama. CL: (Spanish) Richie didn’t -- P2: I’m sorry. For the record, Panama is [still another thing?]. CL: We’ll talk about it off camera. (laughs) JJ: (inaudible) CL: But then, you know, after that Richie -- we finally was able to get in contact with Richie, and he was very, very scared and very weary because his life was in danger. But we were able to meet and we wrote that pamphlet. We were very happy and satisfied with it. And then after that, everybody just tried to pick up the pieces and move on. JJ: So people kind of got together later on? CL: Right after the purge. Okay, they took Richie maybe about a month after, and then about another month when Richie came back and he finally was willing [01:03:00] to meet with us. 45 �JJ: And met with different people [and that?]? CL: Mm-hmm. JJ: So what happened to Gloria and Auga? CL: Well, Gloria, she kept on -- JJ: Gloria and (inaudible) CL: Then Carmen Cruz left, and she went on with her personal life. And Gloria, I think she started drinking a lot. I do know that I ran into her several times throughout the years. The first time I run into her, it was in a dance place called [Justine’s?]. JJ: What is it? CL: Justine’s, it’s a Latin joint that they had back in -- JJ: In the Lower East Side (inaudible)? CL: No, that was on 38th Street and 8th Avenue. JJ: (inaudible) CL: I’m in the bathroom and I’m just, like, I’m there. When I turn, I see her coming. When she seen me, she was, like, the smile. [01:04:00] I looked at her, my body just became so rigid, and my face dropped. She knew right then and there ’cause her smile went from smiling to frowning. And the energy, boom, was like, don’t you dare. I have nothing for you, nothing at all. And so I walked out. The next time I run into her we were -- My husband and I, we were invited to the John Leguizamo show, when he had the show on television, but we went to the TV show. JJ: John (inaudible) 46 �CL: John Leguizamo. And so when we’re there, when we turn, she’s there with the daughter, oh my God, the whole family. There was the daughter and friends. And so I had to explain to my husband [01:05:00] who she was. So I didn’t make it easy for her. I just kept going pss. (gestures indicating whispering) (laughs) The third time I run into her, we were doing some work to free the political prisoner Dylcia and the women and the guy. JJ: (inaudible) prisoner of what? CL: From the FALN. JJ: The FALN? (inaudible) CL: We were at the Puerto Rican Day Parade, and we had, like, this side table. So I decided to go to the store to get a bottle of water. So I got my water, I’m coming out, and who’s coming in? But she is with some guy. I don’t know what she expected, for me to hold the door or something, but I slammed the door in her face. And the guy looked at me like (makes a face) and she was like, “Just leave well enough alone.” She went in, I went out, [01:06:00] and that was the end of that. I’ve never seen her again. JJ: (inaudible) proactive and everything? CL: Yeah, she is proactive. She does poetry. P2: (inaudible) last time I saw her. (inaudible) CL: She does poetry now. People don’t know -- in fact, I have a friend. His name is [Jeremy Delgado?], and I was on Facebook checking on his page, and he had made a comment, and she came out. And when I seen her, of course, every time I see her, I kind of, like, freeze. You know? So I went into her page and 47 �says, “Is that Gloria. Oh?” So I called him, and I spoke to him, and says “Listen, you have this woman on your page.” And he says, “Yeah. She’s a great poet, a great writer.” I’m like, “Well let me tell you a little story about Miss Gloria Fontanez.” Okay? He was in total shock that this woman partook in the downfall of the Young Lords Party, and how she [01:07:00] helped create a situation to hurt so many innocent people. All in what? You know? JJ: (inaudible) Is there anything else (inaudible) community? CL: His name is [Miguel Vasquez?]. JJ: Miguel Vasquez? CL: Uh-huh. JJ: And what [does Miguel do?]. CL: Miguel is a English teacher for elementary school. JJ: How did you meet him? What was that (inaudible) CL: I met him in New York on the train. JJ: Oh, on the train? CL: Yeah. JJ: So you guys moved and you live here. CL: Well, we met 18 years ago. And so, two strong-headed people. The beginning was very [01:08:00] hard for us. And so we decided to part ways in the beginning, and he came to Puerto Rico. And when he came to see his parents, his parents were old, and so he decided to stay. I’ve always wanted to live in Puerto Rico, and I’m like, “Gee, if I don’t move to Puerto Rico, I’m going to lose my chance to, you know -- 48 �JJ: Be together. CL: -- have a relationship with this man. And so I decided -- and my kids were already grown, out making their own life. And I said, “Well, let me move to Puerto Rico.” And I did. And here I am. JJ: So what does he do? (inaudible) CL: He’s a teacher. English teacher. JJ: Oh, yeah. English teacher. (inaudible) CL: Well, yeah, he was active in New York with, how you say (Spanish). P2: The United Bronx Parents. CL: The United Bronx Parents. P2: (inaudible) [01:09:00] CL: Very nice guy. Very decent man, taught me a lot of things that, when you grow up in a place like the Lower East Side, you tend to grow up with missing certain things like morals. And, you know, when you also are rebelling, you tend to move some of these things in your life because you’re willing to -- you’re rebellious, you’ll rebel against anything and everything. JJ: So do you think we made an impact at all in -- you guys made an impact in New York or...? CL: Oh, absolutely, yes. Oh, yeah. You know, it’s so funny. Moving to Puerto Rico, I couldn’t find the kind of work that I did in New York and the salary, so I decided to work in restaurants because they gave me the salary or the way [01:10:00] that I liked to live. So that’s what I’ve done in the last 18 years, or 15 years, here in Puerto Rico. I’ve worked in restaurants. So this youngster several years ago, 49 �he says to me, I did a paper on the Young Lords. Well, we were talking about the Young Lords, and I’m like, “You know, I used to be a Lord.” Oh my god, he was so amazed. And he says to me, “You know, I did a paper on the Young Lords.” He was excited. Oh my god. And I’m like, “Well, I want to read your paper.” And one thing led to another. And I’ve never read his paper, but -- and I did promise that I wanted you to meet him. And the kid is only 19 years old. JJ: (inaudible) CL: And look, he in Puerto Rico... JJ: (inaudible) CL: Yeah. JJ: Anything else that you want to add (inaudible) [landmark?] [01:11:00] CL: Well, to finalize, the experience, the people that I’ve met, what I’ve learned because, again, I didn’t go to high school. And my education came from the Lords. JJ: Did you get a GED or anything? CL: Yeah, I did get a GED, but after all the Lords, then I tried, you know, started to find my way. Because, again, you know, when you’re 16 and you’re 21, it’s an impact. JJ: But that’s (inaudible) you seem to be (inaudible) the Lords for them teaching you about life -- CL: The reading, understanding. JJ: You started reading? CL: Yeah. We had to read Lenin, Marx, Stalin. So you have to be at a certain level 50 �to understand, you know, and read this. JJ: (inaudible) CL: [In there?]. JJ: (inaudible) CL: Yeah. In fact, I never went to [01:12:00] take classes for my GED, and I passed it the first shot. When I went back to school, and I took a test, they could not believe that I didn’t go to high school. So yeah, of course it impacted. I learned a lot. And one thing I did say that after that happened, I would never join another group blindly, ever. If I were to join a group, I would definitely have to know exactly where they’re coming from, and I would have to truly believe. That’s why, when I left, that day that I told Tony, “I’m gonna call them and I’m gonna leave.” I no longer believed in the PRRWO. JJ: (inaudible) CL: And I still have good friends. Panama, Richie -- JJ: (inaudible) CL: And I’ve met you, you know, who started it all. JJ: (inaudible) END OF AUDIO FILE 51 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7e59af5b7c5d0ea787e9221d510757b2.mp4 548a6e755aa65307ea2dbbac5d4b3686 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Carmen de Leon vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Carmen De Leon es una Young Lord que creció en la cuidad de Nueva York y ahora vive en Loiza, Puerto Rico. Soportará fuerte por mujeres, Señora De Leon trabajo cerca con el Young Lord Richie Pérez en programas de educación para jóvenes. En su entrevista comparte sus memorias sobre los días que trabajo con los Young Lords. Señora De Leon habla de cómo los Young Lords fueron infiltrados por agentes del gobierno y como “idolología” fue utilizado para nublar y hacer divisiones dentro del movimiento. Esto también incluye soportando unos que tomen poder y descreditando los líderes. Con vivacidad describe como los miembros fueron tomados como rehén y como ella misma fue purgada de los Young Lords. Su entrevista nos da una prospectiva importante en cómo estos tácticos fueron pasados y últimamente destruyo las conexiones dentro de los Young Lords y el barrio. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Leon_Carmen_de Title A name given to the resource Carmen de Leon video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Leon, Carmen de Description An account of the resource Carmen de Leon is a Young Lord who grew up in New York City and today lives in Loíza, Puerto Rico. A strong advocate for women, Ms. de Leon worked closely with Young Lord Richie Pérez on a range of education and youth centered programs. In her oral history, she recalls her days working with the Young Lords. Ms. de Leon discusses how the Young Lords were infiltrated by government agents and how “ideology” was utilized to factionalize and create divisions within the Movement, including encouraging takeovers, discrediting, and purging leaders. She vividly describes members being taken hostage as well as how she herself was purged from the Young Lords. Her interview provides important insights into how these repressive tactics were carried out and how they ultimately destroyed the connections between the Young Lords and the barrio base. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-14 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a3d3ebc4320ef314be129250e2f9adcc.pdf 156c95d987fcb59faf23ecb405d8f966 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: David Lemieux Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/15/2012 Biography and Description David (pronounced "Daveed") Lemieux joined the Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party in the spring of 1969. At age 16, he was the second youngest member of that Chapter. He was a "rank and file" member and functioned in all BPP activities including the Free Breakfast for Children Program and the dissemination of the Black Panther newspaper. As a member of the Education Cadre, he was constantly engaged with "speaking" the mission and purpose of the Black Panther Party. He remained active with the BPP into the early 70s. In 1982, after consultation with other members of the activist community, David joined the Chicago Police Department and began a 26 year career where he was able to use his office and authority as a vehicle to serve the people. Currently, David Lemieux gives seminars facilitated by Chicago's Black Star Project entitled "Keeping OUR children out of the 'Just US' System" and speaks locally and nationally on the role of peace officers serving the community through the justice system. He is active with the Chicago Black Panther History Project and other efforts committed to preservation, education and reclamation of the true history of our struggle. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: David, you can give me your name, full name, and date of birth, and where you were born? DAVID LEMIEUX: Okay. My name is David Lemieux. I was born April 10, 1953 in Georgetown, Ohio. I came to Chicago when I was very, very small. I have no real memories of Ohio. I grew up in Chicago. JJ: So, you were like a couple years old? DL: I was in maybe first grade or something. Kindergarten, first grade. JJ: So, no recollection whatsoever? DL: Not really, no. JJ: And your parents, where did they come from? DL: My father’s from Haiti. My mother’s from here. JJ: She’s from Chicago? DL: Yes. They’re both deceased now. Well, as far as I know, my father’s deceased. (laughs) I can’t verify. JJ: Oh, you can’t verify? DL: No, if he’s alive, no. My father’s name was [Mark Lemieux?]. [00:01:00] That’s about all I can tell you. JJ: So, you didn’t grow up with him at all? DL: Very short term. I was raised essentially by my mother. JJ: What do you know about him? 1 �DL: I know he was from Haiti. I know he was working at a hotel maybe. They met -of course, my mother was white, my father was Black, so it was not the most popular thing in 1953, or the safest thing for people. They were together for a little while. Things were not easy for them. I don’t know if he stayed here. I don’t know if he went back to Haiti. I really don’t know. JJ: Where were they living? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DL: In Chicago. Well, see, I lived in Chicago -- when we moved to Ohio -- I’m sorry, when we came here from Ohio, [00:02:00] we moved to Hyde Park in Chicago. I don’t know a whole lot of my parents’ history. I get a little confused. I don’t know if they met here. My mother traveled a lot. So, I don’t know if she met my father here or if she met him in San Francisco because she lived in California for a while. JJ: Tell me what she did. She traveled (inaudible)? DL: She traveled. My mother was a free spirit, bro. She just went different places. When she came here she was working. I remember when I was a little kid she worked at the Conrad Hilton hotel downtown. And then, she worked for this -- as an accountant at a warehouse. Not a trained accountant, but my mother was self-taught. She did books for this small company. Can’t really give you a lot of history about my parents. There’s not a whole lot I can tell you. JJ: So, you grew up in Hyde Park. DL: Grew up in Hyde Park basically. JJ: Hyde Park is a rich area. [00:03:00] 2 �DL: Hyde Park isn’t a rich area at all. But Hyde Park is close to the University of Chicago. It’s a very diverse community. I don’t know if my mother did it just by accident. I don’t really see her as being someone who was going to do a lot of research. When she came to Chicago, like I said, I was very small. To end up in Hyde Park, which was, for Chicago, a very diverse community -- remember, Chicago was very segregated. Hyde Park, however, was not because of the University of Chicago community. There were people from all over the world. I went to St. Thomas the Apostle Grammar School which was, as I recall, roughly 80 percent Black, 10 percent white, and [00:04:00] 10 percent miscellaneous. I may be a little wrong with the figures. It may have been a little less than that. But it was primarily Black students, although there were still white students there that you could see, that were visible. There were families there that had been there a long time. JJ: So, it was the neighborhood that changed basically. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DL: Hyde Park never really, really -- Hyde Park has been pretty consistent all the way through. I mean, there’s more Black people there now. The neighborhood, when I was growing up, was, like I say, it was diverse. There were a lot of Black folks living there, and there were a lot of white people living there, and there were some Asians living there. Wasn’t a lot of Latinos. There were some Eastern Europeans. There was a few Latinos. JJ: There were [a few, is that right?]? 3 �DL: But not a lot. But not a lot. But this was in, [00:05:00] what, early ’60s. I went to high school. I started high school in ’68. Went to Hales Franciscan until I got kicked out. JJ: To where? DL: Hales Franciscan. My grammar school was at 55th and Woodlawn. My high school was at 4935 Cottage Grove. So, a lot of my high school years were spent at Parkway Gardens which is at 64th and King Drive. I mean, one of those situations where I didn’t necessarily live there but I was there all the time. Well, I was a kid. I had a girlfriend that lived there. I spent a lot of time with her family. JJ: So, how was your childhood? DL: Childhood was interesting. You know, I always use the term -- I love my mother [00:06:00] dearly, but my mother raised me by what I describe as benign neglect. Benign neglect is a political term that usually refers to the relationship between a colonial power and its colony, where the colonial power doesn’t really mess with the colony as long as they do what they’re supposed to do. They’re not really hands on in doing a lot of raising. My mother certainly gave me a foundation for right and wrong and etiquette, things that were very important. I’m certainly not going to -- she wasn’t neglected there. I wasn’t neglected as far as not having food and clothes and all that. But my mother worked in 3:00 to 11:00 shift when she worked at the Conrad Hilton when I was in grammar school. So, by the time I got home from school -- she would see me off in the morning, but when I got home from school, there was nobody there until eleven o’clock at night. So, I was kind of on my own. [00:07:00] 4 �JJ: [I actually worked?] at the Conrad Hilton later (inaudible). DL: Yeah, so, I was one of the original -- what they called latchkey kids where they -she tried to have babysitters and people that would watch me. I had brief periods where I would go maybe stay with somebody after school or whatever. School was like eight or nine blocks from where we lived. So, that was a nice little walk. Wasn’t no taking the bus. But since she had to go to work before I got home, that never worked out because I would always eventually just walk home. I didn’t want to stay with other people. I did stay with one lady for a while. That was kind of cool, her and her family. Actually, her name was [Nancy Ramos?]. She was Mexican. Actually wish I had stayed there longer because maybe I could have learned Spanish. [00:08:00] But she had a kid and a husband and sister in law. They just sort of babysat for me. I wouldn’t really sleep there, but I would stay there. They lived close to where we lived. Then I would just go home. They would take me or walk me home. So, I wouldn’t just be unsupervised for all those hours after school. But then, after a certain time, I was just pretty much on my own. I learned how to cook and do all that kind of stuff. And my mother was cool. JJ: Your mother’s name was what? (inaudible) DL: [Ann?]. JJ: And your father? DL: [Mark?]. JJ: Mark. And any brothers and sisters? DL: I’m an only child. 5 �JJ: You’re the only child. DL: Yeah. JJ: So, you were cooking and -- DL: Cooking and -- I got pretty self-sufficient. I started working a part time job when I was 15 as a busboy at a restaurant. [00:09:00] Matter of fact, I remember my mother going and lying about my age because you were supposed to be 16 to work. So, she went and told them. They didn’t ask for a birth certificate. So, she told them I was 16 so I could. I never had to give my mother any of my check. But once I started working, of course, then she didn’t have to give me as much money, which was good. I would do my own day to day maintenance with things. I mean, again, my mother certainly provided food, clothing, shelter, and love. We had a good relationship. It just wasn’t maybe the traditional -- I don’t know. I don’t have anything to compare it to too much. It’s how I grew up. JJ: So, then non-traditional, (inaudible). DL: It was cool. My mother said to me one time -- this was not when I was a small child. I was actually -- it may have even been when I was in the Panther Party. I’m not sure. [00:10:00] But my mother even said to me that, “Son, there are some things about you that I’ll never really understand exactly because you’re Black,” referring to me, “and I’m white,” talking about her. So, it was never -- I always liked to compare my mother to Mary Tyler Moore. She was so nice and kind of oblivious sometimes to things. At least maybe it appeared that way to me when I was younger. As she got older and I got older, I realized that she may not have been so oblivious to things that were going on. But at the time, she was 6 �just -- there was an instance that happened when I was in high school. I was always a troublemaker at school, but not a troublemaker like misbehaving, like doing anything [00:11:00] like gang stuff. But I got politicized when I was in seventh grade. I became attached to the struggle when I was in seventh grade. So, that’s a kid. That’s a grammar school kid. I saw Stokely Carmichael on television. And this was when all the demonstrations were going on in the South. They had the Freedom Riders riding the buses. And keep in mind, I had never been south except for one trip to Florida, and I’ll tell you about that. But when I saw Stokely Carmichael on TV, when he said Black Power, he was speaking before a bunch of people the Lowndes County Freedom Party in Lowndes County, Alabama. They were registering people to vote. And he was speaking at a rally, and he said very loudly that what we need is Black power. And when I heard that, I was like, “That’s what I’m talking about.” [00:12:00] I would say that and joining that Black Panther Party were two pivotal points in my development, I’d say, as a human being. They just were. Hearing that -JJ: What did it mean to you? DL: Well, the thing is this. When I was much smaller -- I must have been about five or six years old -- my mother and I went to Florida. My mother looked like a Latina. That’s how she looked. My mother had very coal black hair. My mother was a very nice looking woman. Her features and her very dark hair and the way she pulled it back -- we were at a swimming pool in Florida and I’m guesstimating it was about ’59, about the year the revolution down there, and a lot of Cubans came to the U.S. [00:13:00] I mean, granted a lot of them were what may have 7 �been perceived in Cuba as white Cubans. They were really people with money. Some people came. But in America, they were people of color. In America, they were foreigners and people of color. JJ: Even though they were [white?] (inaudible). DL: Well, that becomes a vague term. That becomes a vague term. But there was still -- in Miami, there was always a lot of Cubans. There’s a lot of Cubans in Miami. So, we were at this swimming pool that didn’t have any signs posted or anything like that. My mother couldn’t swim. But in a section of the pool there were what of course I know now to be Cubans. And they were visibly a little different than the other people that were there. And they were in a certain section of the pool. I mean, a lot of this is retrospect because I remember it from then. [00:14:00] Nobody ever taught me how to swim. Somehow I just knew how to swim. So, when I was a little kid, I could swim. So, I get in the pool and my mother got up to use the washroom. I mean, there’s a lifeguard there. She didn’t know how to swim anyway, so nothing she could do if I started to drown. (laughs) But she wasn’t really worried about that because I could swim really well. So, I just got in the water and I just started swimming all over the pool. Well, apparently, I swam in a part of the pool that the Cubans were not supposed to go into. But I’m just swimming. And a bunch of white teenagers -- I mean, I even remember this now. A bunch of white teenagers jumped in the pool and they started pushing me under water. And I remember they were saying, “What’s the matter, Carlos? Can’t you swim? What’s the matter, Jose? Can’t you swim?” I mean, they’re calling me all these names like that. So, obviously they 8 �thought that I was Latino, that I was with this group of Cubans. [00:15:00] Had they known I was Black, it might have even been worse. But I knew I was being singled out for some difference I had with these folks. That was, I would say, my first real encounter with racism. But I certainly didn’t analyze it back then. I didn’t really know what to associate that with until later when I got older and I figured out the Carlos and Jose part in 1959 in Florida and Cuba, whatever. But going back up to seventh grade and becoming attached to the struggle -- we were watching TV and we would see the dogs and stuff down in Birmingham and the water hoses. We saw all that. Just like you watched the war in Vietnam, you also watched the civil rights struggle going on. There was something about not fighting back that did not appeal to me. [00:16:00] I was terrified of the idea of going to the South, but I always imagined -JJ: (inaudible) DL: Yeah, I just wasn’t feeling that. I just wasn’t feeling that. And I will admit that I was terrified about going South. I mean, I thought they had Black folks just hanging, lynched from every tree because I had always been here. And like I said, the experience in Florida -- I really hadn’t put that into perspective then. I saw them throwing rocks. As a matter of fact, I even saw Dr. King when he was here. My mother took me to see Dr. King, I want to say, maybe at the auditorium or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) [was pretty progressive?]. DL: Oh, yeah, without a doubt. She didn’t talk a whole lot about it, but she was. I mean, I sort of analyzed that later. It’s kind of hard going back to that time. It’s 9 �like, “Okay, cool. We’re going to see Martin Luther King. I know he’s about nonviolence. Okay.” [00:17:00] I was still a kid, but I just wasn’t really about that idea of these people throwing bricks and rocks and water hoses on you and siccing dogs on you and not fighting back. There was just something about that that just did not sit well with me. So, when I heard Stokely Carmichael say Black Power, it wasn’t just me, but some of my friends and a little bit older -- we would start talking about things that were going on. Keep in mind, we’re talking about a kid in grammar school. But we would start talking about social issues as much as our seventh and eighth grade minds could comprehend and figure out certain things. And then, I remember in eighth grade, that’s when we started listening to records of Malcolm X, “Ballot or the Bullet,” “Message to the Grassroots.” JJ: So, what year was this? DL: This was in ’67, I want to say, because Malcolm was assassinated in ’65. JJ: [I would say ’68 was?] (inaudible). DL: And ’67 -- I remember [00:18:00] listening to him actually at St. Thomas. We had an after school group. It was Black Christian Students Association. I wasn’t Catholic, but wasn’t none of us really religious at all. We just, okay, we had this group because that way we could use the facility and maybe get some Kool-Aid or whatever from the church. And we would sit there and we would discuss social issues. So, I was already very much attached to the whole idea of resistance when I was in eighth grade. So, when I went to high school -- JJ: Now, eighth grade -- where was the school? 10 �DL: Eighth grade, 55th and Woodlawn, St. Thomas. I went to high school at Hales Franciscan at 4930 Cottage Grove, Hales was the only all Black Catholic school. It was an all-male school. But at Hales, we started a Black student union. [00:19:00] Even though it was an all-Black school, we started a student union because we were sort of in conflict with the priests. The priests, all but one, were white. And we would have these things with them. “Look, you’re all a bunch of white missionaries trying to civilize us.” I mean, we really had these ongoing things with these priests. JJ: Would you come by that and tell them that? Because it’s kind of hard to talk to a priest like that. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DL: Well, we would do it -- yeah, there were some of them that were pretty aggressive with their stuff. I remember being a sophomore in high school. When I was a sophomore in high school -- when does school get out? In June? In May of ’69 -- I started freshman year in ’68 and ’69 was my sophomore year. In ’69 I joined the Black Panther Party. I was in the party and still sitting in [00:20:00] school in Hales Franciscan wondering why I was there because I thought the revolution was going to start tomorrow, and I don’t know why I’m sitting here listening to these white people talk the counterrevolutionary nonsense. JJ: So, you thought the revolution was going to be -- DL: It was imminent. JJ: It was imminent? DL: It was imminent. JJ: You know, [a lot of people felt that?] (inaudible). 11 �DL: And again, I was 16. I mean, your sense of urgency is heightened. Your sense of mortality is nonexistent. So, why couldn’t it be the revolution tomorrow? I mean, hey, the brothers are ready to do what we need to do. And then of course, once I joined the party and could put organization to this -- I mean, I remember there was one of the guys that I went to high school with who was a little older than me who brought a Panther paper to school. [00:21:00] I remember looking at the Black Panther paper and he said, “Well, you know there’s a chapter here in Chicago.” This was ’69, and he was going to a meeting on a Tuesday night at 2350 West Madison. And I was like, “Man, that’s what I want to do. I want to do that.” I believe it was, like I say -- I’m almost positive that it was May because I know I was 16. And I was the second youngest member of the Chicago chapter. There was a brother we called [Oppressed?]. That’s not his name, but we called him Oppressed, who was 15. So, he was the youngest, and I was the second youngest. I remember coming to the meeting. And by me being so light complected, there were people that were looking at me a little funny. But the brother I was with said, “This is David, my friend from -- I got to school.” I guess he verified my race credentials or whatever. [00:22:00] I went to the political orientation class (audio cuts out) and studied the Red Book and started going to the breakfast program and selling the papers. I mean, being 16 years old and getting up at 4:30, 5:00 in the morning to go and serve breakfast to some children, especially -- ironically being an only child, I didn’t really have a lot of interaction with other -- I didn’t have no brothers or sisters. But I actually liked it, the whole idea of what we were doing. See, I sort of got it. I got it at a young 12 �age. I got the whole international view. My concern as far as my immediate concern is the quality of life for Black people in America. [00:23:00] That’s my immediate concern because that encompasses who I am and my family and what I’m dealing with. But I was able to immediately grasp our solidarity with these different liberation struggles throughout the planet. JJ: Because you’re looking at Stokely Carmichael and Black Power (inaudible). DL: Right, I’m really feeling that. JJ: You’re feeling it, okay. DL: And I’m feeling the Black Panther Party. Again, my concern, my personal concern, what David is concerned with is my community. But I recognized early the similarities between what other oppressed peoples are and have dealt with in the world. [00:24:00] I was able to understand the whole concept of capitalism and socialism. I got that there were these rich greedy people. JJ: And your mother is not telling you this. DL: No, I’m not getting any of this from her. JJ: Are you getting some of it from school? DL: Only from friends. I’m not getting any of this from -- there are no authority figures that are telling me this. This is from my own -- you have to remember, I was reading Malcolm X when I was in grammar school. I was reading Fanon when I was a freshman in high school. I read everything I could get my hands on. I read as much literature that I could get my hands on that had to do with the struggle, that had to do with resistance. I read Che. I read Fidel. I read that because I was ready to go to war. I mean, I liked the -- the social programs were 13 �fantastic. I understand. As a mature person -- [00:25:00] I’m 59 years old. I understand all that now. Back then, what I was waiting for was to have the [carbine?] and go to war. That was like -- I’ll do all these other things, but when do I get to get the [carbine?] and go to war? Yeah, I’ll do that, that’s great. But we’re talking about a 16-year-old now. We’re not talking about an adult. But the biggest appeal for the Panther Party and the greatest appeal to me personally was saying that our lives are precious enough, and our freedom or hopefully our future autonomy from this government is precious enough to fight for, to actually fight. Not have a conversation, not make [00:26:00] declarations, not file petitions and march and, “Please, can you all stop treating us like this.” I like the idea that if you try to harm me, if you try to hurt me, I will hurt you back, I will harm you. I am not going to let you do whatever you want to me because I am a child of the African Diaspora. That does not give you the right to have control over me to the point where you can do whatever you want to me or to my people just because, or because you can. I say you can’t. I say if you try, I’ll fight you back. I believed in that. This came from my -JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DL: -- came from my friends and from me. JJ: And your mom a little bit. DL: Well, the thing with my mother was this. [00:27:00] My mother was proud of me that I was rebellious, if you want to put it, for lack of a better way of putting it. My mother, of course, had not been treated well by most of her family. I won’t include my grandparents. They were cool. My grandfather was legally blind, so 14 �he couldn’t see me anyway. And he just really -- my grandparents were very old. They were already in their seventies. I mean, my grandparents died when I was in grammar school. But they always treated me well when I would see them. They were in Ohio. They were cool. They never discussed anything. They never mentioned issues of race. I heard my grandfather use some terminology. I mean, I never heard him say nigger, but I heard him say darkies. I mean, I was a little, little kid. I heard my grandmother [00:28:00] bemoan the fact one time -- I think she said something like, “Couldn’t Ann find a white man?” She might have said that. But she didn’t -- but even saying that, she didn’t say that to me. I was probably not supposed to hear that. As far as the way they treated me, they treated me okay. But my politicization -- whatever, I’m not saying [the word?], but you know -- I got politicized and conscious on my own from my own reading and from what I saw. I didn’t need somebody to feed it to me. I read it. I started listening to Malcolm X. Watching people get beat and dogs sicced on them was enough for me. And you have to remember here in Chicago -JJ: (inaudible) DL: That was on television. But remember, here in Chicago, being so segregated, I knew that Hyde Park was a special community. But we could not go -- we, being Black folks, we could not go to Marquette Park. [00:29:00] We could not go anywhere near Bridgeport. We couldn’t -- when I was in grammar school, Black people couldn’t go to Rainbow Beach which is at 77th and South Shore Drive. It’s all Black people now. But when I was a kid, you could get beat to death over there. Matter of fact, all the way when I was in high school, a friend of mine got 15 �beat into a coma at Rainbow Beach, which is at 77th South Shore Drive. This is in high school. So, that had to be, again, ’69. It wasn’t even the 70-- you know, the ’60s. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) and the history in Rainbow Beach from the 1920s? DL: I think those riots were 31st Street maybe. I think when they killed -- JJ: So, 31st Street was Bridgeport. DL: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) 31st Street, yeah, but that far east isn’t, but Black folks were not welcome. There were riots there back in -- [00:30:00] JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) of Bridgeport. DL: Right, yes, it would have been. JJ: That’s where Mayor Daley’s [gang?]. DL: Exactly, the Hamburg gang. But a lot of people now -- it’s hard for them to imagine -- JJ: But Rainbow Beach you couldn’t go -- DL: Couldn’t go anywhere near there. South Shore -- there were some Black people living in South Shore. South Shore was like the really bourgeois stuff, at least that’s what we thought. You have to remember, people trying to analyze other people’s neighborhoods and their pocketbooks doesn’t always come out quite correctly. You may have someone living in a house that looks -- I mean, I never lived in a house until I was an adult. So, I thought that anyone that had a house was rich. I mean, that’s just what I thought. If you lived in a house, you must be rich. When it’s people working three and four and five -- not three or four -- but 16 �people that worked two full time jobs in order to provide that particular environment for their children. So, I realize now that they weren’t [00:31:00] rich. But I thought South Shore you had to be kind of rich to live there. Of course, I found out later that wasn’t the case. But reading Malcolm and listening to it, and then -JJ: You mentioned (inaudible). DL: No, I’m just saying, there are older people that I started being around -- I met another brother from Haiti, it’s actually “Ai-ti.” His name was [Leslie Vieux?], V-IE-U-X, Leslie Vieux. I don’t know whatever happened to him. I haven’t seen him since I was in eighth grade or maybe a freshman probably. But he was what was called a Black nationalist. And he would come and talk to us, and he talked to us about Haiti and about the formation of the country and how they defeated the French [00:32:00] and threw out their enslavers. So, I was pretty fired up by the concept of fighting for your freedom, protracted armed struggle. When I got in the party, I started reading Mao, Fidel, people that had had successful revolutions, and then also combined with the Haitian Revolution. JJ: Oh, the Haitian revolution? DL: I mean, all of it. Just all of that’s going on in my mind. JJ: You’re studying this. DL: Right. I’m reading about this. I read about Toussaint Louverture and JeanJacques Dessalines and Henri Christophe, and that was 1796 to 1804. But all that was inspirational. All that was like, “Well, you know what? You can fight 17 �against oppression and you can win. [00:33:00] And You can fight for real. You can actually fight.” JJ: Did you say you were born there or -- DL: No, I was born in Ohio. JJ: Your father was. DL: I was born in Ohio. I mean, it was just -- I’ve ironically had these contacts and connections with Haiti even though not so much through my father. It’s just worked out that way. It’s like it’s just meant to be that way. But the biggest appeal for the party to me was the idea of armed struggle. I’m just saying. The social programs were absolutely fantastic. I’m just saying for me philosophically the idea of armed struggle -- JJ: You were ready. DL: I was ready. JJ: And a couple of things. You were ready, but the party is saying, “We have to use the programs to educate you.” DL: Oh, sure, absolutely. I was ready but I wasn’t a fool either. [00:34:00] I did defer to the -- I perceived as the wisdom of people that were older than me. It’s funny. I say older than me when I see old films from then, and I realize that the leadership of the party was 20, 21 years old. I was 16, so they were older than me. So, I deferred to their -- I guessed they were smarter because they were older. Remember, I wasn’t from the generation that, like now where the dynamic between young and old is totally screwed up. There was some element of me thinking that maybe you knew a little more than me because you were older. And 18 �then, of course, the party had a central staff. When I first joined the party, Chairman Fred was still incarcerated. JJ: When was that? DL: May of ’69. I know exactly. If I got a calendar, I might even be able to figure out the date. I know it was a Tuesday evening in May, and I know it was eight o’clock. I mean, it was a meeting at the headquarters. [00:35:00] I took the number 20 Madison bus with the other guy I went to school with. And we got off the bus and it was raining. Junior Walker and the All-Stars was playing “What Does it Take to Win For Love for Me” from -- I don’t know if that was a record shop or -- there was a record shop that was right by Panther headquarters, and they were blasting that through the speakers. So, anytime I hear that, I think of that. I remember that very vividly. I was just a solider. I was rank and file in the party. I did the things that members of the party were expected to do. I sold papers. I went to the breakfast for children program. I went to rallies. I remember this guy inviting me once [00:36:00] to speak to -- because he knew I was in the Panther Party -- to speak to a group of people from the Baha’i faith because they wanted to know. And I talked to Che, you know, Minister Che. He’s like, “Yeah, go ahead, brother. You can talk to them if you want to.” It wasn’t like a big, huge -- it wasn’t like I was in auditorium. It might have been like 10 or 15 people over in Hyde Park. Remember, Hyde Park has always been a more unique community in the city than any other place. I mean, it just is. Even though the University of Chicago is the devil. Still -- (laughs) it’s the devil. At the same time because of it being an academic community, there were always 19 �bookstores and places of gathering where progressive people could gather. It’s just always been that way. [00:37:00] During the ’60s, we used to go up to the Point, and that was all Black folks. We would go out to the Point and brothers would play drums and sisters would dance -- it’s at 55th -- it’s the Lake Point, Promontory Point it’s called. It’s right there at 55th and the lake, Lake Michigan. It’s a park, it’s a park. And brothers would go out there and play drums and sisters would dance. We would solve the problems in the Black world. JJ: To have a discussion. DL: Yeah, right. Somebody might have even a little tape of Malcolm. There was not so much cassettes then, but someone might actually have a reel-to-reel -- they even had little portable record players. I remember them having little portable record players that you could buy. And I remember listening to Malcolm outside once on one of those record players like that. It was like this little portable thing. [00:38:00] But you could actually play records on it. I remember listening to Malcolm in the park once, a bunch of us sitting around. JJ: Do you guys were really listening to the speeches? DL: We listened to the speeches, yeah. JJ: So, that was [a whole study?], this is pre-Panther? DL: That was pre-Panthers yeah. But once I was in the party, like I said, I would go to the political education classes, and I was studying revolution. I was studying the revolutions that had occurred, how they occurred, how Fidel landed with the yacht, Granma it was called, and he had X amount of people. I mean, I’m not good with numbers. But let’s say he had 87 people, and almost all of them got 20 �killed immediately. They got spotted by a plane, by one of those spotter planes. And they killed a bunch of them. But because of the [00:39:00] true need for revolution in Cuba at the time, the oppression they were suffering under Fulgencio Batista, those who were left in Fidel’s group were able to go through the countryside and continue to recruit. So, they were able to replace all the people that were lost in the initial encounter. And the revolutionary army grew and grew and grew and grew. And as we knew, in 1959, they marched into Havana, overthrew Batista. He fled the country. I read about things like that. To me, that was very inspirational, how you can start with these very few people and be decimated. But still, as long as there were people who carried that revolutionary zeal and enthusiasm to the people, that you could organize and get the revolution to grow. [00:40:00] And I truly, truly in my heart believed that’s what was going to be happen here in America. I believed it. I believed it was going to happen and nothing could stop it. JJ: And your friends believed the same thing? DL: Yes. JJ: Did they join in? DL: Well, (laughs) the friend that I was talking about was in the party. This guy, he was already in the party, and he took me down there. I haven’t talked to him in many years. I don’t know what’s happening. Kind of lost contact with that particular person. But I have other comrades from the party that we remained tight for 40 years. JJ: What were some of the other comrades? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) 21 �DL: When I first joined the party, I’m pretty sure that [Billy?] was there when I very, very first joined in ’69. This guy’s name was -- well, he may not want his name mentioned on this -- I don’t know what he’s doing now, so I won’t. [00:41:00] He and his brother were both -- he had a twin brother, and I can’t remember if his twin brother was participating, but I know he was in the Panther Party. Most of the people I go back really far with, you know. (laughs) When I joined the party, Che and [Wanda?] and Billy and, you know, [Billy Dunbar?]. We’ve stayed in contact pretty much off and on most of our lives since then. I’m also involved with the history projects as well. JJ: So, what is the history project? DL: The history project is where we’re trying to organize archival information about the Illinois chapter of the party and also do similar to what we’re doing now, [00:42:00] interviews, oral histories, oral histories. Pretty much that, and compile it into a presentable program that can be used. JJ: Why do you think there’s a need for [that now?]? DL: Well, because as time passes, the people who can tell the real history of what happened in any given circumstances are not going to be here forever. So then, everything becomes speculative. People our age -- we’re all plagued by the veracity of our memories. I mean, maybe we’re not always so clear. But we’re more likely to be clear than someone who wasn’t there at all. [00:43:00] We may remember different versions of something. But I would rather have two or three people who were actually at an event or around during a certain time in history speaking on that than someone who wasn’t there at all speculating on what they 22 �think might have been. That’s not going to work. But I do remember the Rainbow Coalition. I remember interesting stories about that. I was working security -- oh. (laughs) I’ll tell you, when I first joined the party, Chairman Fred wasn’t there. When he got out, I happened to be in headquarters, in party headquarters, 2350 West Madison, sitting at the top of the steps. And I guess Fred and Che and different people were in the back in a meeting. [00:44:00] But I was to be there at a certain time. So, I wasn’t there when he got there, but when they come out of this meeting, he sees me. And he goes -- he hadn’t seen me before. Because of the way I look, he goes, “Power to the people.” He asked me was I in the Young Lords. That’s the first thing he asked me. (audio cuts out) “Are you a Young Lord?” I said, “No.” Then he said, “Are you a Young Patriot?” And I was offended, I will admit. This if Fred Hampton. This is chairman of the Illinois chapter. This is the first time I saw him. I already held him in awe. JJ: You had already knew him. DL: I already knew who he was. JJ: You’d seen him. DL: I believe it was Mr. Che who said, “That’s a Black Panther there.” Because, you know, [they had Che, this is a Black Panther?]. He said, “Oh, all right, Brother.” I mean, that was it. That was, again, Che verifying my race card, I guess. He let him know I was from the South Side. [00:45:00] JJ: Being light skinned, also. DL: As well you know, not always easy being green, brother. 23 �JJ: So growing up actually, it was a blessing or -- at times I had situations where [you just mentioned?], but it was a blessing also because I could kind of see from other angles. How was it for you? DL: This is the thing, I never -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) the incidents that -- DL: I think that it has been an issue with me my whole life. I’m 59. I’ll be 60 this time next year, and it’s still an issue. JJ: And you said (inaudible) it never goes away. DL: Right, it never goes away. And [00:46:00] it is what it is. I know how I look. When I was younger, it was very painful. It was not fun at all. It was -- people could be very -- say very mean things because, see I never tried -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) DL: Yeah. Well, see, the thing is I never tried to go anywhere else. The concept of what they used to call passing or whatever, that just was never even -- I never even considered that. It wasn’t like, “Oh, I’ll just go over here and be with Todd and Brandon.” I just never even thought to do that. And because I never thought to do that, when people would even suggest things like that to me, I found that very hurtful. You have to remember, starting to be involved in the struggle when I was in seventh grade -- what are you, 11, 12 years old? [00:47:00] So, I was already conscious when I was a kid. So, I became very aware of race and issues of race and everything and being called out of who I was or suggested that I should go do this, that, and the other when I was already committed not only being who I am -- I’m just Black to me, just light skinned Black person. So, when 24 �people would imply that you would feel differently about injustices and about things that were aimed at Black people that somehow you would feel different because even though, “Yeah, we know you’re Black, but you’re real light, so maybe you feel differently about it.” I didn’t feel any differently about it. I didn’t feel less oppressed or [00:48:00] less anger at the people who did these things because I share some complexion traits. My momma didn’t oppress me, but I didn’t associate my mother with the behavior of white people in general. I mean, I knew that wasn’t the behavior of white people in general because I was able to observe their behavior, you know, in life. I was able to see it. I was able to see how, yeah, sure, I could go places sometimes and maybe people would not -- I’ll be the first to admit, sure, they didn’t know me. But I was always with other people who were browner. So, maybe they weren’t reacting to just me, but they were reacting to the presence of Black folks then. So, I was still privy to that constantly, seeing their behavior and how they would treat people. And I never felt [00:49:00] like I had some sort of dispensation from that. “Well, you’re a white man.” That would really irritate me when people would come with that. JJ: They used to call me Casper the Friendly [Ghost?]. DL: I can only imagine. (laughter) See, I remember exactly how you looked in 1969, believe it or not. You were a little smaller then, but I remember. Yeah, you were a little smaller then. But I remember. Like I said, I remember you and Chairman Fred embracing on the -- it was either you and Fred or you and Che embracing on the stage. JJ: On the stage, where? 25 �DL: It was at Grant Park. It was at Grant Park. JJ: Oh, I remember that. They had to take Che out of there because they had a warrant. DL: See, I wasn’t privy to all that, but I don’t doubt it. JJ: They stopped us on Lake Shore Drive. Did Fred (inaudible) get rid of him (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). [00:50:00] DL: Quickly, get him out of here, before the pigs get him. I remember, like I said, my first encounter with Chairman Fred. Just so you know, when he asked was I a Young Lord -- hey, it’s always been cool if people thought I was Puerto Rican because to me, Puerto Ricans are children of the Diaspora. But I wasn’t trying to be confused with a Young Patriot. But speaking of Young Patriots, again, I was sitting at the top of the steps at headquarters, working security, 16, I had my thing. And the door opens downstairs and here comes a white man and a white woman. And the white man has got on a denim jacket with the Confederate flag on it. So, I was like, “Whoa, [00:51:00] hold it right there man.” I didn’t shoot him. But I’m like, “Stay right where you are.” I remember so clearly he said -- I swear he said, “Howdy.” He said, “My name is Preacherman Donald Fesperman and this is my wife, Darlene. I’m here to see Chairman Fred.” (laughter) I wasn’t right -- I knew that we had these different coalitions with different groups, but I had never actually seen any Young Patriots before. I had seen their Rising Up Angry newspaper. So, I saw some of the guys with the black leather jackets. I guess they called them greasers back then or something, [Mike James?]. Was that his name? Mike James. 26 �JJ: Yeah, Mike James went with the greasers. DL: Right. I saw some of their pictures, but I had not [00:52:00] -- remember this is 2350 West Madison. These were hillbillies, and I had never seen them before. I hadn’t seen Slim Coleman yet. Eventually I met Slim Coleman and I eventually met most of these folks just tangibly. I mean, I was rank and file. It wasn’t like they were coming to see me. But I met some of these people. I remember chairman or whoever coming and saying, “Oh yeah, let him up.” “Okay, if you say so.” So, he goes on by and he’s got a big old Confederate flag there. I read their literature, somewhat after the fact. I read some of their literature. And again, I got it. I wasn’t overly comfortable, but I got it. You know what I’m saying. I was very comfortable. I was comfortable -- JJ: You got it, but some other people were negative. [00:53:00] DL: With the -- well, I was comfortable with the Young Lords. I was comfortable with peoples of color. I was not particularly comfortable with the coalitions with other folks. But that was contrary to party philosophy and party intent. I just wasn’t entirely comfortable with it. But that’s part of the party. Intellectually, I could get it. I got it intellectually. I remember going to be SDS -- JJ: Emotionally you had a problem with it. DL: I emotionally had a few problems with it. I remember going to the SDS convention when they had it at the -- not the amphitheater -- the place that they tore down. What was the place that they tore down on State Street? [00:54:00] JJ: Coliseum. 27 �DL: The Coliseum. They had the SDS convention there, and I went down there to sell Panther papers, which was great because it was zillions of folks. And you could sell the whole stack of papers. But I remember, now here’s all the -- what we called the white mother country radicals. That was terminology. JJ: That was Eldridge Cleaver, that was (inaudible). DL: Yeah, maybe it was -- right. Again, like I said, coming from Hyde Park, I come from a diverse community. So, I wasn’t -- I had met white folks that were okay with me. That would be (inaudible) my mother. But I told you, my mother’s always a separate entity to me. So, it wasn’t like -- I knew these -- it’s not like I looked at these folks like they were the enemy necessarily, but [00:55:00] I also just wasn’t entirely comfortable. I’m most comfortable around people of color. I just am. That’s just the way it is. I don’t mean to no harm. I just am. JJ: Did you see the Young Lords a lot or were they -- DL: I didn’t see them a whole lot. I saw them sometimes. I had a friend in -- because I got kicked out of Hales and I ended up at Kenwood. And there was a Puerto Rican brother that went to -- I can’t remember his name -- that went to Kenwood, that had one of the YLP buttons. I know that’s a different -- the fist with the rifle. JJ: That was our button. DL: That was your button. “Tengo Puerto Rico en mi corazón”? “I have Puerto Rico in my heart.” Is that it? JJ: YLP was the next year, the following year. It was created in Chicago. Everything was created in Chicago. DL: Okay. But he had a button that said -- I remember that button. [00:56:00] 28 �JJ: The purple berets and we had the buttons. DL: Right. Now, that, I remember. I remember I would see members of the Young Lords, like when we would occasionally go to a rally on the North Side, I would see them. Again, I had a whole different -- a very comfortable affinity there. That was cool. Purple berets -- and of course, in literature, I would see the brown berets in California, the Chicanos with the brown -- see, I was cool with that. It was a little hard for me to deal with the whole Confederate flag thing with that. And it’s funny. The thing with the greasers, the Mike James folks, [00:57:00] I want to say I was in the party when I did this, but it may have been the year before I joined the party. At 95th and Throop, there’s a Catholic girls school called Longwood Academy. It’s a girls school. And they were having some problems. It was majority white, but they were having a problem with the Black girls being harassed when they got out of school. This was back in maybe ’68. And they were at the bus stops up there and they were bothering them. And I put a rifle in a guitar case and went up to the bus stop. I was 15, 16 years old, whatever. If it was in ’68 I was 15. I was already in high school. I actually went up there with this guitar case because I thought they were actually attacking them. [00:58:00] I took a rifle up there. I was going to protect those sisters up there at the bus stop. So, that’s kind of where my head was at. I remember that the people that were supposedly bothering them -- and I saw some of them -looked like the guys that Mike James was working with -- they were all these white boys with black leather jackets and grease in their hair. JJ: The white gangs were dressed like that, that’s (inaudible) the greaser [name?]. 29 �DL: Yeah. So I saw some of them up there. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) but they were being evicted too, (inaudible) their homes too. DL: But I’d say that the -- JJ: So, was there -- you were glad that Mike James was working with those other guys? DL: Look, I’m not mad at none of them, okay? Of course, now -- JJ: They did admit that they were a little racist. DL: Sure. And of course now, in retrospect, [00:59:00] again, being in the Black Panther Party was one of the more pivotal or important parts of my life. I think that the Panther Party, as my comrades have said earlier, is one of the most important organizations that has ever existed. The fact that J. Edgar Hoover called us the most dangerous threat to the security of America is one of the greatest compliments that we could ever get. America was founded on the genocide of the Indian and the enslavement of the African. It’s not right and it’s not likely to ever be right because it’s founded on something that’s incorrect. This very system, the very government, it’s founded on something that’s incorrect. The only institutions in this country that were designed specifically with Black people in mind has been chattel slavery and penitentiaries. So, for us to have been a group [01:00:00] that fought against that and the very nature of what runs this country, that made us extremely important. Maybe because of our age, we probably were not overwhelmed by the risks we were taking because I don’t think that we really comprehended what we were up against. Of course, the 30 �COINTEL Program and the 24/7 battle against us. We would occasionally sleep and our enemy never sleeps. And that’s something that has continued until today. [01:01:00] We get caught sleeping. They’re always awake. That’s just the way it is. Battles in the future have to be fought by -- our battles now and in the future have to be fought by people that always have someone that’s awake. You just have to sleep in shifts, but somebody always has to be awake. JJ: You mentioned penitentiary. Did you ever have any problems with courts or anything like that? DL: No. I did get arrested with a pistol. I’ve carried a pistol almost every day since I was 16 years old. And as you might know, in 1982, I was able to get on the Chicago Police Department. I was a policeman for 26 years. JJ: Oh, I didn’t know that. DL: Yeah. Just as I am. People think that going to the police [01:02:00] academy was like going back to high school. But that’s -- JJ: What station? DL: I was in the tactical unit. Well, I went to 71st and Cottage Grove in patrol. I was in uniform for a year and then I was in plain clothes after that. I worked an allBlack district, which was fantastic. Then I made detective in ’96 and all I dealt with was shootings and murders. I was a violent crimes detective. So, I say unequivocally that the system is not our friend. So now, I do seminars for Black Star Project keeping our children out of the just-us system because it is the justus system. I never had any illusions that I was changing the system. I liked the idea of the community being represented. Everything that’s in our community, we 31 �should be represented, not just superficially but realistically. [01:03:00] So, I never represented the police department as a community. I represented the community in my behavior. That’s another whole topic. JJ: What years were you a police officer? DL: Oh, ’82 to 2008. JJ: Oh, this is later. DL: Oh, yeah. I was 30 years old when I got on the police department. I was in the party 16 to like 19. JJ: During that period, there were no [problems in areas?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DL: Oh sure. That was the reason that I even ended up doing that was because Howard Saffold was on the radio one day making an appeal saying that we need brothers and sisters to take this job because we need to be represented in these cars in the community. The police aren’t going away. Black Panther Party always espoused community control over the police. [01:04:00] Well, what better control is it than to be it? They can’t make you be a pig. If that’s how you’re going to be, that’s how you’re going to be. They can’t order you to do pig things. If that’s your methodology, that’s what you’re going to do. I was a Panther on the police department, just like I am now. I didn’t miss a beat and I didn’t change. It is what it is. Did they know all that? Did they ask me? Did they interview me? No, they’re not that sophisticated. I mean, at a certain point, they figure out how your behavior is, that you’re not -- again, I came on at the time right when Harold 32 �Washington was being elected. It was shortly before his election. I worked in an almost exclusively Black district. JJ: You know (inaudible) campaign, the Young Lords worked on his campaign. They were the first Latino group to endorse him and the first Latino rally was held by former Young Lords, [01:05:00] so-called former Young Lords. DL: So-called former. You never really totally stopped. JJ: In Chicago, we never quit the Young Lords. DL: Just like there will always be Panthers. JJ: But in fact that was Northside Hispanic Coordinator, (inaudible) use the term “Hispanic” anymore, because I ran for alderman too for a while. DL: I remember that. JJ: You remember that? DL: I do remember that in 1980, ’83 maybe, ’82, ’83, ’84. JJ: Actually -- DL: Oh, back then when he ran because Harold was elected in ’83. JJ: I turned myself in exactly to the day of Fred Hamptons -- the anniversary of his death. DL: December 4th. JJ: December 4th in ’72. And I went and did my year. And as soon as I came out, we announced that I was running for alderman. In fact, because we had that in mind [from the beginning?]. [01:06:00] DL: Shall I give some last thoughts? 33 �JJ: And then after that, the Harold Washington campaign came. We worked on that. So, we haven’t really stopped working. It’s just we haven’t talked about (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). In fact -- DL: Is that still running? JJ: Yeah, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible), yeah, [what are some final thoughts?]? DL: Well, final thoughts is (audio cuts out) Black Panther Party will absolutely remain one of the most significant organizations in the history of our struggle here in America. We didn’t cover all of the bases. We covered most of them. We had social programs. We had political education. And also, we had military objectives as well, or a military element, meaning. And I think that’s very significant. That was the appeal of the party to me. I don’t think that there’s been anything like it since. There’s always been [01:07:00] resistance. But the idea of -- as Fanon says, I’m not quoting is word for word, “True freedom for the slave comes when he kills the slave master.” Now you can kill them metaphorically, but you can also kill them literally. And the audacity of us to suggest that, yes, if you try to harm us, we will actually fight back and we will take out your soldiers as you try to take out ours. That was a big deal, which is why [01:08:00] every force of the government available was mustered to try to destroy that, to even destroy that as a concept because to this day, that remains the most dangerous of concepts, that the lightbulb will go off and the those people who are oppressed will actually fight back against their oppressors. That’s some dangerous stuff. That’s my final words on that. 34 �END OF VIDEO FILE 35 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7d6ae2e651494a21d876b7ed8ca8e9e8.mp4 081b9323d5c31b5ffa6f1246024dcb92 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry David Lemieux vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Afro-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Relaciones policía-comunidad--Illinois--Chicago Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capítulo Relaciones raciales Racismo--Estados Unidos Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Lemieux_David Title A name given to the resource David Lemieux video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lemieux, David Description An account of the resource David (pronounced "Daveed") Lemieux joined the Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party in the spring of 1969. At age 16, he was the second youngest member of that Chapter. He was a "rank and file" member and functioned in all BPP activities including the Free Breakfast for Children Program and the dissemination of the Black Panther newspaper. As a member of the Education Cadre, he was constantly engaged with "speaking" the mission and purpose of the Black Panther Party. He remained active with the BPP into the early 70s. In 1982, after consultation with other members of the activist community, David joined the Chicago Police Department and began a 26 year career where he was able to use his office and authority as a vehicle to serve the people. Currently, David Lemieux gives seminars facilitated by Chicago's Black Star Project entitled "Keeping OUR children out of the 'Just US' System" and speaks locally and nationally on the role of peace officers serving the community through the justice system. He is active with the Chicago Black Panther History Project and other efforts committed to preservation, education and reclamation of the true history of our struggle. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) African Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Police-community relations--Illinois--Chicago Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Race relations Racism--United States Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-15 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9896a815a48d329dee7a92757e2a8dc2.pdf 30b44c7ffc6e8045e1b0d41ecb7d259f PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Mike Lawson Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/29/2012 Biography and Description Mike Lawson is a civil rights activist who first met Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez in 1968, after Mr. Jiménez was released from prison. At that time, Mr. Lawson was in charge of a G.E.D. program for ex-offenders that already had enrolled a number of Black Stone Rangers, Disciples, and Young Lords. The group met at Argonne National Laboratory. Because Mr. Lawson lived in Old Town, he helped some of the students who lived in Lincoln Park get to the classes. In the morning most of the students would work part-time as janitors; they would study part-time in the afternoons.As an extension of their classroom lessons, Mr. Lawson took some of his students on a fieldtrip to Grant Park during the Democratic National Convention where they witnessed police beating up on hippies and reporters firsthand. These demonstrations helped to remind Mr. Jiménez of the goals he had set for himself while in jail. Today Mike Lawson lives on the south side of Chicago and is dependent on a wheelchair to get around, as he is plagued by muscular dystrophy. He is probably not aware of the deep way his work has changed many Peoples’ lives. �Transcript MIKE LAWSON: -- the housing situation because it was the number one issue of this town and therefore, we invited Dr. King to come to Chicago -JOSE JIMENEZ: ML: Wait, I’m sorry. Go ahead. And -- I’m sorry. I had a thought. JOSE JIMENEZ: Sorry, because I’m thinking that today we’re still dealing with the housing issue. So, what year was that, basically I was just trying to… ML: It was back in the ’60s and ’70s, early ’70s, right? JJ: Early ’70s. Okay. And you were just kind of working all over the city in terms of the housing when you brought Dr. King here to Chicago? ML: Well, we brought Dr. King -- let me talk about this first because I got deeply, much more deeply involved in civil rights because [00:01:00] I was teaching school up on the North Side. And one night, I had the TV set on and I watched a movie called The Judgement of Nuremburg [sic]. And that was a movie that dealt with the atrocities of the German people toward the Jewish people. Before I turned the TV off that night, there was a newsflash from Selma, Alabama. I witnessed in that newsflash horses going over a bridge and driving Black folks off the bridge and beating them. I said, “My God. This is like Nazi Germany.” And all [00:02:00] the next day, I went to school. I taught in a white Catholic school. Therefore, all the next day I went to school and I was in great distress. And I had great anger about what I had witnessed the night before. And very interesting because it was a young -- the students I taught were all young white Catholic 1 �students. And one little guy, [Ray Sandton?] said, “Mr. Lawson, I think you should go to Selma.” Two weeks later, I left school for about a week. I went to Selma. And it was through that experience I got involved in civil rights and my life began to change. [00:03:00] Before that time -- when I say my life began to change, it’s because before that time, I identified more with middle class white culture. With the Selma culture, because of the kindness of many Black people who gave us their homes, who fed us, who helped us get involved in the march. We began to march in Selma, began to go to Montgomery, Alabama. I went a few miles, and then I came back to Chicago. But it was that whole entire experience that gave me a whole different awareness of who I was as a Black person and also my involvement in civil rights. [00:04:00] It was then we invited Dr. King to come to Chicago, because we had a very serious housing project along with educational situation in Chicago. But housing was the reason why we invited Dr. King to come to Chicago, because we wanted to begin to organize marches. It was Dr. King in Chicago. We finally eventually marched into Marquette Park. And if you recall, it was at Marquette Park, somebody hit Dr. King in the head with a rock. It was in Marquette Park that I experienced -- my car was almost turned over. It was the type of [00:05:00] violence through the white population there that caused me to begin to realize how serious was the racial situation in the city of Chicago. I was scared. I didn’t know what to do. I finally drove out of that park and returned to a Black church that we were trying to organize from to march in the white community. JJ: Okay. And this was around 1965, 1964? 2 �ML: No, this was around ’65, ’71, ’72. JJ: That you were doing that work. ML: I worked for two years in civil rights. Then I ran into somebody from Argonne National Laboratory [00:06:00] and I decided to leave civil rights, and therefore get a job as an educator in a program which we had Black P. Stone Nation disciples and Young Lords. This is where I went to Argonne. JJ: Okay. So, if I can backtrack just a little bit -- okay, so, you were teaching school at -- you said a Catholic school. What school was that? ML: St. Gregory’s at North Side. It’s no longer there. JJ: What address? ML: I don’t -- JJ: I mean, what streets, basically, cross streets. ML: Bryn Mawr and Ashland. JJ: Bryn Mawr and Ashland, [that was?] St. Gregory’s? ML: Right, mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. And you were teaching -- what grades were you teaching then? ML: I taught high school. In those days, you taught all kind of subjects. I taught history, religion -- I call it theology -- [00:07:00] a social science course, sociology. I taught a whole variety of things there. But that was very typical of Catholic schools in those days. JJ: And your car was overturned during the demonstration? ML: Right. JJ: And to have your car overturned means you were -- 3 �ML: No, no, it was not overturned. They attempted to overturn the car. They rocked it. JJ: So it was in the procession basically -- was it in the procession or the march? ML: It was driving people into the area to get out of the car at Marquette Park and become a part of the march, yes. [00:08:00] JJ: Okay. So, you were driving people from different churches? ML: The church that we met at in the very beginning at 71st and about Halsted. Right. JJ: Okay. And they saw that you were doing that and they tried to break your car? ML: Once we got the cars into -- they saw Black folks that were in the car going into their neighborhood. JJ: They rioted. This was like a white riot then. ML: Somewhat. It was white anger. And many of the -- it’s interesting because many of the other whites were part of -- they got the church structure in those neighborhoods, and they would come out of church and they would come out of church very angry. “What are you going in our neighborhood? Get out. Get out. Get out.” [00:09:00] Again, in those days, there were white neighborhoods and Black neighborhoods. The thing was the whites could not -- excuse me -- Blacks could not go past Ashland. In other words, we kind of knew that this was white turf. If you check out the South Side today, Blacks are up to [Kinzie?] and Pulaski and so forth. Not in those days. JJ: So, what happened to a Black person if they passed that street, that dividing line? 4 �ML: Well, it’s interesting because -- to respond to your question -- let me respond this way. [00:10:00] I knew of some Blacks that got up the nerve to move into Bridgeport. JJ: Which is Mayor Daley’s old neighborhood. ML: That’s the issue. Mayor Daley had the cops move those people that were friends of mine who moved into Bridgeport -- he moved them out of Bridgeport. In those days, it was, again, day and night. The people that moved in to -- found a place to live in, found their apartment -- they were there less than a night. They were moved out. They could not stay. And we know by fact that the mayor said, “Move them out. Get them out of here.” [00:11:00] JJ: With a document from the court? I mean, how can they be moved out? Was it the sheriff that moved them out? ML: It was police. JJ: Regular police? ML: And police would not make a decision without the mayor enforcing their -- it was ultimately -- very quietly, it was the mayor. JJ: This is the mayor of the city of Chicago. ML: Boss Daley. JJ: Boss Daley, right. ML: The old man. JJ: So, he wanted certain people in certain areas and people that were Black, African American, could not be in that community? Is that what you’re saying? It was the mayor? 5 �ML: Well, Chicago, in those days and even today, has Black folks community, and you yourself know, Puerto Rican community, Mexican community. We still have a system of [00:12:00] very deep segregation. It’s not as bad as it was in those days I’m talking about. But you know from your experience today that the system still exists, okay? JJ: Of segregation? It still exists. ML: Right. JJ: I’m not going to interject. So, you were saying the Black P. Stone Nation, the Black Disciples, and the Young Lords were -- ML: In a program at Argonne National Laboratory. Argonne decided like many of the businesses in those days, “We had better do something -- we had better start hiring” what they called the hardcore. In those days, if you recall, the [00:13:00] terminology was -- you, because you eventually went to Argonne, were considered hardcore. I kind of smile because, in other words, hardcore were the bad niggers, the bad Puerto Ricans. That’s what the term meant. And so, we decided that we would not only give them a chance to work, but also give them some jobs. When I first went out to hardcore as director of the education program, the hardcore people that we allowed into that program were janitors. After being on site and finding that the laboratory, eventually [00:14:00] they ceased being janitors and they decided at that point there were various divisions at Argonne in terms of biology, solid state science, chemistry. We would let the young men that were part of the hardcore eventually be trained and do jobs that were in various areas. We brought about a whole different utilization. For 6 �instance, I’ll give you an example. One of the -- [Crip?] is dead now. One of the Disciples was given a job in glassblowing. He was taught glassblowing. We had a man in solid state science. We had a man in chemistry. [00:15:00] When I say a man, a young Disciple or a Black P. Stone Nation or Young Lord. But we got them some meaningful jobs, some jobs where they weren’t just janitors no longer. José, you went to Argonne. Were you a janitor? JJ: Yeah, I was a janitor. ML: Eventually, but -- JJ: I was a janitor half day ,and half day, I went to school to get my GED. ML: Went to school, right. But you stayed a janitor. JJ: All the time I was there, I [stayed as?] a janitor. ML: You were new. But we had made some changes. But you were part of the changes. JJ: I was part of, I think, the beginning of the program and then I left after that, or got in trouble and then left after that and got in more trouble. But it didn’t -- it helped me a lot [00:16:00] [when I was with?] the program. I’m very grateful for that. So, what were some of your -- what you wanted to do with the students at that time? Because you’re dealing with the hardcore and that. What was it that you were trying to do? ML: Well, I guess the issue for us was to get personnel and to convince personnel that the men just can’t be janitors because those were the jobs that were almost the jobs that a lot of folks got caught in no mobility situation. Therefore, we got people involved in being trained not only in school in the afternoon but also being 7 �trained on the job. [00:17:00] Example being we had [Crip?] trained in being a glassblower. We had another person being trained in biology, some of the fundamentals of biology. So, we began to -- and that caused a problem because there were a lot of Black folks at the laboratory that were janitors, and they began to realize that the young gang members that we brought in were now being given better jobs and they were stuck in their old janitor jobs. The other people themselves were stuck in the janitor jobs. So, that was a conflict that we did not anticipate and we had to become aware of that. JJ: So, what changes did the Argonne Laboratory do? How long did the program stay in effect? ML: The second year I decided that -- I began to see the program was having some internal political problems. And they were going to bring in somebody to replace me. And they brought a person in. And that was the beginning of the real death, quote-unquote, of the program because the new person did not work out also in the program. And it was one of those types of programs where it didn’t last much further more than the two years that I was involved. [00:19:00] It ran into problems in those days. JJ: I know that you were wearing at that time a dashiki to work and your hair was teased or -- you know, the same fashion as the ’60s during that time. I wasn’t even aware that you were involved in civil rights. I knew you looked militant to me, what they call the militant stereotype at the time. ML: I was given a chance to really -- I’ll give you an example. One day -- I would spend a lot of time in jails and in the court fighting to get the various students that 8 �were part of the program out of jail, out of the court systems. [00:20:00] I can recall one day that I spent the entire day in a courtroom, and fighting like hell to get the men out of the jails and so forth. And I returned to the laboratory at night. And I was asked to kind of talk. There was a laboratory meeting of some of the folks that stayed around after regular hours, and I was asked to give a talk to those people. I gave a talk, and I was told that it was such a fiery speech, as one person said, I ended up preaching. And the director of the laboratory was at that meeting. [00:21:00] And he was so overwhelmed with what I had to say, he began to make some significant changes. This is when we began to get the men into better jobs. Again, I was told that through my fiery talk I confronted the laboratory director and he began to make some changes. JJ: But his changes were to try to get rid of you. ML: No, no, no. That was other politics. I don’t think he was aware that some of the other politics were going on at the laboratory. JJ: Okay that was other politics. Okay, so what other politics? Was it just personal politics, not political? ML: Well, it’s hard to talk about because -- [00:22:00] (break in video) JJ: Okay. ML: I was born -- my name is Michael Lawson, L-A-W-S-O-N. I am 71 years old. I was born May 29, 1940. I was born and raised in the city of Chicago, a part of the community called Englewood. Englewood was a community on the South Side of Chicago, 63rd and Halsted was the heart of the community. And in those 9 �days, 63rd and Halsted was (inaudible) Sears, [Hi-Lo?], A&P, some banks. In other words, it was an ongoing vibrant community of people. [00:23:00] If we compare it, it’s like the Chatham in those days or rather Chatham today. In those days, it was like Chatham because it was a very good community of people. I was born, again, and raised a Catholic in Englewood. I went to (inaudible) school for first eight years and then for four years I went to Quigley, which was a preparatory seminary on the North Side of the city of Chicago. JJ: So, you were -- Englewood was a vibrant community. What do you mean by that? ML: What do I mean? For instance, the community had -- in those days -- good is relative -- but we had good schools, both Catholic and public schools. [00:24:00] I would say if there was any unemployment in those days, it was eight percent or nine percent or even six percent, five percent. People had jobs. Black folks either worked in the post office or in the stockyards or in the steel mills. We could get jobs, and we had jobs. We had a home. Well, let me backtrack. JJ: What year was this, basically? ML: I finally got moved into a home in -- I was about eight or nine years old, so 1948. [00:25:00] In those days, we got a nice bungalow in Englewood from a German woman, and we paid $6,000 for the home. In those days, Black folks could only buy homes on contract. And that means that if they missed one payment, just one simple payment, they lost the house. That’s buying on contract. That was the only way that Black folks could buy a home. And we bought a home on contract. It was a good home. When I was eight or seven years old -- it was 10 �interesting. My mother went to the [grammar?] school and she talked to the monsignor who was the pastor of the parish, and she wanted his permission [00:26:00] if she could bring her daughter to school. He said, “Of course you can bring your daughter to school.” And the irony of the situation was my mother was very light. And my sister [Sandra?], who went to grammar school -- they realized they had their first Black child at the school. My sister was the first Black child to go to that school. I was the third Black child in that school. There were no other -- very few, I should say -- Black children in the school until I was about in seventh or eighth grade. [00:27:00] When I was in seventh or eighth grade, I can recall coming home one afternoon and saying to Mother, “Mommy, what is a Negro?” I had no idea because the kids that went to school were Irish or Italians or Germans or Polish. And there was no separation. I was just part of the group that went to school. I never realized. And we weren’t taught at home about racial pride and so forth. We simply understood, quote-unquote, we were to fit in and that was part of the reality of being raised and born in those days. JJ: So, Englewood was an ethnic minority community? (inaudible) ML: No, Englewood -- we had Polish, [00:28:00] Germans, Irish, Italians, Blacks. If I go back and tell you about the Black -- next to Aberdeen Street -- I lived on Aberdeen which was half Black. Just to the east of us was -- I can’t recall right now -- it was [Sangamon?] was in there. But everything east of us was white. There were no Blacks east of us. Black folks were at Aberdeen and the block west of me and the next block were Black. But that’s all the Blacks were in the area. [00:29:00] 11 �JJ: So, the South Shore Drive was primarily white at that time? ML: If we go into South Shore, it was all white at that time. South Shore -- JJ: Okay. And this was in 1948? ML: Sure, 1940, 1945, ’48, ’50. Blacks didn’t start moving into South Shore until I was in high school. And there were very few Blacks that were allowed into South Shore. For instance, the South Shore Country Club would not allow any Blacks in the South Shore Country Club. Even the postman had to leave the mail at the front of the South Shore. He could not go past the [00:30:00] gate if he was Black. Therefore, he was not allowed to come into the place. The whole idea of race relations in those days was like black and white. Black folks -- we folks knew our place and we knew what blocks we could go on and what blocks we should avoid. For instance, I would go to school with some of my classmates. I recall one of my classmates was [Raymond Lamont?]. He lived on Aberdeen, but he lived across 59th Street. It was an unwritten law that we should never go across 59th Street. And we knew that. And therefore, we wouldn’t go [00:31:00] across 59th Street. I’ll give you another example. JJ: Across -- heading north or south on 59th? ML: On 59th, it’s just north of us. So, it was north of us. JJ: So, you couldn’t go north of 59th Street? ML: No, in those days. A little further north of 59th Street, at about 55th and Racine was a park, all white park. I can recall -- let me tell you about that park. I was the only Black in the area allowed to ride my bike in that park. I found out I could do that only because they recognized me to be Catholic. [00:32:00] I went to a 12 �Catholic school, and that park was controlled by Irish Catholic Visitation, therefore being light skinned and also being Catholic, I was allowed to ride my bike in that park. The park that we could go to was Ogden Park at 64th and Racine. But I can recall when I was at Ogden Park, we would stand and put our hands on barbed wire, on the wire fences and look in at the white kids swimming. We could not even go in the swimming pool in those days. We weren’t allowed in the swimming pools. Let me tell you -- eventually, I [00:33:00] went to Quigley Seminary. I left there about four or five years later. JJ: So, when did you start Quigley Seminary? Because that’s going into the priesthood. Were you going to -- [that’s to prepare for the?] priesthood? ML: Well, that was -- in those days, they considered Quigley a seminary, but it was a - we look back on it now and we kind of smile. The question is, how can any 13or 14-year-old kid have any idea of what he wanted to be? It was ridiculous to put any kid in that situation. And so, I went there. JJ: But it was still to prepare kids for the priesthood. ML: That was the goal, and I’m saying it was ridiculous. It was crazy. [00:34:00] JJ: But you were there, you were there. ML: I was there. JJ: So, you didn’t want to be a priest? ML: Eventually, in my fifth and sixth year, I decided to not to go and pursue Quigley. I went to Mundelein, which was the major seminary. It was at Mundelein I decided not to continue my studies for the priesthood. That’s when I went to Loyola 13 �University, a Catholic University in the city of Chicago. I went there for about three years, got my bachelor’s degree. And I moved into Old Town. JJ: Okay, if we can go a little bit back. So, why did you decide to leave the seminary and go to Loyola? [00:35:00] I mean, what was going through your mind at that time? ML: I changed my mind about wanting to be a priest. So therefore, I did not want to be a priest. Therefore, I left the seminary. JJ: Were you angry with the church or something? ML: No, no, no. It was just a matter of I didn’t want to pursue this way of life anymore. JJ: Okay. So, you went to Loyola. ML: Right. It’s interesting because I went to Loyola because it was a Catholic university. I was still in that mentality of that security of wanting to stay within the Catholic structure. So, I went to Loyola, got my degree in sociology. I left Loyola and moved for the first time [00:36:00] after graduation into Old Town. I moved at 1452 Hudson Street, [or 1450 Hudson Street?], and in those days I had an old beat up car that ran and got me around. I had apartment of five rooms. I made a hundred bucks a week. I point that out -- I taught at a Catholic high school. And I point out the fact that I made a hundred bucks a week, which was no money, but in those days, one could exist on that amount of money and have a car and pay rent and do things. If we compare that to the way people live today, [00:37:00] it’s like day and night. 14 �JJ: Okay. So, you’re in Old Town. You’re on Hudson, and also on Sedgwick? Was this also part of Old Town? ML: Right. I moved from Hudson Street further north to Sedgwick, 1752, and it was there that I first encountered many more Puerto Rican friends. I had my Black friends. I had my white friends. And I had my Puerto Rican friends. If you recall [Juan Colon?]. JJ: Yes, I know Juan Colon. ML: Juan Colon and I were good friends. I don’t know where Juan is right now. [00:38:00] JJ: I don’t know (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). ML: The last time I saw him, he was married. I got the impression -- I smile because we all change in life. Juan became a very middle class person. What does that mean? Unlike the Juan Colon that I knew years ago who was somewhat a poor person and a gang banger to some degree. JJ: Now he’s more middle class at this point? ML: That’s what -- when I saw him and I met his wife -- we didn’t talk a lot. But that’s the impression I got, right. JJ: So, you were teaching for a Catholic institution? ML: Right. I taught for a Catholic institution. [00:39:00] That was my first -- no, it was my second job, because my first job -- I used to be a vocational counselor for people on welfare. I worked there for about a year. And then, I applied to a Catholic school and I taught there for two years. Then I went full time into civil 15 �rights. I became assistant director of the Catholic Interracial Council. I was full time civil rights -JJ: Catholic Universal Council? ML: Catholic Interracial Council. In those days, the Catholic church in Chicago was very much involved in what was called social justice. And the Catholic church, quote-unquote, was a witness to many things in life. When I saw witness, [00:40:00] in other words, the church through various agencies was very deeply involved in causes. And one of the causes was racial cause and therefore, I became the assistant director of the Catholic Interracial Council. JJ: They were located where? ML: The Catholic Interracial Council is now Superior Street -- 21 West Superior Street is now a condominium that probably cost $3,000 or $4,000 for each one. JJ: So, at that time, Superior Street had Puerto Ricans also around La Salle. Do you recall that or no? La Salle and Superior? ML: Yes, I do recall. It’s interesting. I recall -- since you mention it -- because [00:41:00] the people next door to us were young Puerto Rican family that had a good number of Puerto Rican kids. And their kids would hang around the neighborhood and play. I recall now yes it was Puerto Ricans, around there along with probably some poor Black folks that were around there. JJ: And that area at that time -- wasn’t that a poor area? That was Clark Street and - what do you recall? ML: I recall -- but again, when you say poor area -- JJ: I’m thinking that it was like a Skid Row area. 16 �ML: It probably was. But in those days, [00:42:00] we more or less accepted it as we were part of the same way of life. We weren’t much different. So, we could identify with the poor people. We identified it as good people. JJ: Okay, as good people. ML: Yeah, sure, who happened to have school problems, various problems. The father was not home bringing a paycheck and so forth. But that was part of our reality. JJ: And the interracial council was working with that community? ML: The Catholic Interracial Council was working with that community, and also it was one of the clear goals of the Catholic Interracial Council was to get Catholic folks involved in social causes. Therefore, many of our members were middle class and upper class people who got involved in the [00:43:00] various problems of Chicago. And one problem was housing. Black folks, in those days, occupied 10 percent of the land and yet they were 25 percent of the population. And that’s true of -- when I saw Black folks, Puerto Rican folks were also part, in my mind, of the poor situation, of the situation that needed to be dealt with for equal justice and a real clear cause. JJ: Okay. So, the housing was one of the major issues that [00:44:00] the Catholic Interracial Council was working with? ML: If you recall, we invited in those days Dr. King to come to Chicago -- (break in audio) that we make some of the Black folks who were caught into janitorial jobs angry, because the young men in the program I was in charge of were getting better jobs. But some of the, quote-unquote, white employees also were 17 �becoming disturbed because they didn’t want to see some of these men now being part of biology, [solid state?] science, glassblowing and so forth. So, they were becoming very angry. In other words, looking back at what we were trying to do in those days, we [00:45:00] overwhelmed people. We did not spend enough time educating people, preparing people for some of the changes that we were trying to make at the laboratory. So, some of the problems we caused ourselves. It was not just everybody on the outside. We caused our own problems. You understand? JJ: You mean some of the participants caused their own problems. Why not discipline some of the participants? ML: In other words, we should have spent more time educating some of the -- JJ: Participants? ML: -- employees that were caught in dead-end jobs. They were caught in janitorial jobs, dead-end jobs. And the young men who we bought [00:46:00] out there were getting better jobs and they were aware of that. JJ: Okay, so, that was the politics then. ML: That was some of the politics going on. JJ: That was the jealousy that was going on. ML: And at the same time, some of the white people, white employees themselves -because you spend so much time doing so much for these young people, “What are you doing for us?” So, they were becoming angry. 18 �JJ: Could it also have been that some of the -- because these were former gang members or in some instances still gang members -- could they have also contributed to the fall of the program, because they were not that disciplined? ML: Yeah. That was part of it. In other words -- it’s interesting. They weren’t disciplined, and they would miss a lot of days of work. [00:47:00] We would oftentimes, to get these men to work, send out government cars. Argonne had its own taxi fleet in which they would send government cars and then they would pick up the men in the program. JJ: They’d pick them up at their house? ML: They would pick them up at their homes. And these very gang members that were gang members in their community -- once they got in the cars and were going outside of their turf were scared enough to hide on the floor of the cars. (laughter) It was incredible. Once [00:48:00] we took them out of their neighborhood into new neighborhoods, this was a whole new experience for them. And these tough gang members almost were crying, “Oh, please, please, don’t take us out of here.” Right. JJ: I remember they had golf carts there at Argonne. I don’t know what they were used for. Like, little golf carts for -- ML: I don’t remember. JJ: You don’t? Okay. But I know that some of the members, the employees or the participants, would take the golf carts and just drive around all day through the place, where they would be found asleep in the janitor’s closet. So, they were 19 �doing mischievous things too. [00:49:00] That was part of it too, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) ML: That was for sure, right. Sure, right. JJ: So that kind of contributed also. And we would sit segregated too when we would eat lunch. And sometimes we would just joke around and sit. ML: And make a lot of noise. JJ: And make a lot of noise, so everybody knew we were there. So, we were kind of like in a way outcasts. They didn’t want us to be outcasts, but we were, in a way. ML: How long were you in the program? JJ: Several months, a few months. I never did get -- I got my GED later. But that definitely helped me -- contributed to it, because I remember we were doing speed reading and all that. [Carlos?] stayed there. ML: And he moved ahead in the program. He did very well. He was very serious. [00:50:00] JJ: Oh, he has a master’s degree today. Today he has a master’s degree. ML: Okay, that’s great. Is he married with his own family? JJ: He’s not married now. He has been married. But I’m going for my bachelor’s. It’s taken about 40 years. ML: That’s great. And wasn’t [Poppy?] -- your cousin was a part of the program? JJ: [William Jimenez?], yes. ML: He’s probably retiring now. He’s getting up in age. JJ: He is retiring. He had a good job as a supervisor. Yeah, he was a supervisor for a store, one of the big stores. 20 �ML: Good for him. JJ: He’s retired now. ML: He’s got his pension. He’s retired. That’s good. JJ: So, most of the people kind of advanced. The people that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) did advance. ML: Now, let me ask you -- how much more do you want from me? JJ: We’re almost done. I’m just going to ask you some final questions about -[00:51:00] do you recall when the Young Lords -- you were still living in Lincoln Park when the Young Lords started, became political? ML: Yeah. Actually, I’m aware they became very political but I’m not aware of the details behind that. JJ: How did you feel? You knew some of the people? How did you feel when they made that change? ML: Well, to me, it was like experiencing the same old problems. For instance, at Division Street and La Salle Street where it used to be a very poor neighborhood -- when they began to rebuild the neighborhood, they built the very fine buildings that Puerto Ricans and Blacks and poor whites could not afford to move into the new housing. So, it was the same old game being run on people in the city of Chicago. [00:52:00] JJ: Basically to kick them out of the area. How did you feel that you knew some of these members and now they were now beginning to protest, actually some type of similar work as the Interracial Council but a little more militant maybe? So, 21 �how did you feel about -- did you oppose them because they were more militant, or how did you feel? ML: No, I didn’t oppose them. I guess I was so busy with my own life, struggling to get into business and do some new things in life, that I was not aware of the details of their program and what they were trying to do. I was very unaware. [00:53:00] JJ: Okay. So, you weren’t aware at all of what was going on? ML: No. JJ: Okay, any final things that you would like to add to the interview? ML: Well, it’s good news that you are doing so well in school. That makes me feel good, even though, like myself, you’re an old man now too. (laughter) How old are you now? JJ: I’m 64 now (inaudible). Not yet but I’m going to be in a couple months. ML: Right. I’m almost 10 years older than you are. Almost, not quite. JJ: I’m very grateful for the program there at Argonne. I had just come out of jail. And so, to me, it was like an ex-offender program. And so, it kind of opened up my eyes, especially again, the fact that you were [00:54:00] a little political. I didn’t know you had been in civil rights. But the fact that we went on a field trip one time to the Democratic Convention. ML: I guess one of the things I was very conscious of was the whole exposure is very much a part of the educational process. To expose your group and you to as much as possible about other parts of life, what was going on. That to me, was very, very important. It was part of my responsibility. 22 �JJ: Well, we definitely appreciate it. It worked for us, it worked for us. ML: Thank you. JJ: All right. Thank you. END OF VIDEO FILE 23 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b32640f790b987d1dd61d5fec30aaccb.mp4 12a0e2d7461f891e7b8b49408667543a Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Mike Lawson vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Ex-convictos--Educación--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Lawson_Mike Title A name given to the resource Mike Lawson video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lawson, Mike Description An account of the resource Mike Lawson is a civil rights activist who first met Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez in 1968, after Mr. Jiménez was released from prison. At that time, Mr. Lawson was in charge of a G.E.D. program for ex-offenders that already had enrolled a number of Black Stone Rangers, Disciples, and Young Lords. The group met at Argonne National Laboratory. Because Mr. Lawson lived in Old Town, he helped some of the students who lived in Lincoln Park get to the classes. In the morning most of the students would work part-time as janitors; they would study part-time in the afternoons. As an extension of their classroom lessons, Mr. Lawson took some of his students on a field trip to Grant Park during the Democratic National Convention where they witnessed police beating up on hippies and reporters firsthand. These demonstrations helped to remind Mr. Jiménez of the goals he had set for himself while in jail. Today Mike Lawson lives on the south side of Chicago and is dependent on a wheelchair to get around, as he is plagued by muscular dystrophy. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Ex-convicts--Education--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-29 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/84436cc563f00a94bf6efa73caa37da5.pdf fca0af828e934cf63e33c678e92dad11 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Roberto Jiménez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/9/2012 Biography and Description Roberto Jiménez is son of “Tio Funfa” Jiménez. Today he lives in the small mountain town of Aguas Buenas, Puerto Rico, but did live for some years in Detroit, Michigan, traveling back and forth in the 1950s, “when there were not that many Puerto Ricans living there.” It was cold in Detroit. And Mr. Jiménez recalls having to rely on family and friends for transportation and other things. He likes to raise rabbits for sale, and chickens. Mr. Jiménez also grows green bananas and other vegetables in his backyard behind the three houses where his brothers and sisters live in separate apartments. At least one of the houses is an inheritance and it is not bad to be able to live and to share supper with family. When friends arrive to visit, he has a habit of giving them some bananas or a chicken or a rabbit. If he has to do the work to prepare it, he will charge for his time. Mr. Jiménez considers himself to be just a humble worker and recalls going to the United States because farm labor was seasonal and there was no work. Sometimes construction was good. But it did not last long because there were many people trying to do it. Mr. Jiménez had heard about the Hacha Viejas, but they were his cousins, children of Tio Gabriel Jiménez, and workers who worked on his uncle’s farm, and not part of his immediate family. Today, Mr. Jiménez has no plans except to enjoy the tropical breeze from the same chair he sits on daily in their patio/garage entrance. Here he is calm and can think as he enjoys the car and truck traffic blaring as it passes the house. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/cccaa63d02d47bb877a5368c7b0456e5.mp4 8598819a0234f4d582e6d784f232a989 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Roberto Jiménez vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Jimenez_Roberto Title A name given to the resource Roberto Jiménez video interview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, Roberto Description An account of the resource Roberto Jiménez is son of “Tio Funfa” Jiménez. Today he lives in the small mountain town of Aguas Buenas, Puerto Rico, but did live for some years in Detroit, Michigan, traveling back and forth in the 1950s, “when there were not that many Puerto Ricans living there.” It was cold in Detroit. And Mr. Jiménez recalls having to rely on family and friends for transportation and other things. He likes to raise rabbits for sale, and chickens. Mr. Jiménez also grows green bananas and other vegetables in his backyard behind the three houses where his brothers and sisters live in separate apartments. At least one of the houses is an inheritance and it is not bad to be able to live and to share supper with family. When friends arrive to visit, he has a habit of giving them some bananas or a chicken or a rabbit. If he has to do the work to prepare it, he will charge for his time. Mr. Jiménez considers himself to be just a humble worker and recalls going to the United States because farm labor was seasonal and there was no work. Sometimes construction was good. But it did not last long because there were many people trying to do it. Mr. Jiménez had heard about the Hacha Viejas, but they were his cousins, children of Tio Gabriel Jiménez, and workers who worked on his uncle’s farm, and not part of his immediate family. Today, Mr. Jiménez has no plans except to enjoy the tropical breeze from the same chair he sits on daily in their patio/garage entrance. Here he is calm and can think as he enjoys the car and truck traffic blaring as it passes the house. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-09 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5d59a66cca1ef41b7c75d39a77b44bf3.pdf 26d56871775dfaa728683b644f0f2fb3 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Ramonia “Monin” Jiménez Rodríguez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 6/25/2012 Biography and Description Ramonia “Monin” Jiménez Rodríguez came to live in the La Clark barrio of Chicago on La Salle near Division Street in the mid 1950s. The La Clark barrio once encompassed the area between Grand Avenue on the south and North Avenue on the north, bounded by Dearborn Street on the east and continuing west to Halsted Street, and in some sections along Chicago Avenue to nearly Ashland. La Clark was chosen by Puerto Ricans because it was the location of many service jobs, including domestic work, waitressing, dishwashing, and other hotels. The neighborhood was also close to a number of factories along Wells, Franklin, and Orleans Streets and along the Chicago River. Ms. Jiménez Rodríguez attended mass at Holy Name Cathedral and St. Joseph. She became involved early in the Council Number Three Damas de María at St. Michael’s Church. There she helped other Damas to cook the arroz con gandules dinners regularly. The dinners would be sold to raise money in the gymnasium after mass. There was usually a live band playing and many neighborhood people dancing. Ms. Jiménez Rodríguez later joined St. Teresa’s Church Council Number Nine, as the Puerto Rican community expanded to encompass the streets of Lincoln Park west of Sheffield to Ashland Avenue. The Caballeros and Damas used St. Teresa’s Hall for many of their activities.Her brothers were also active in community life and civic affairs. Antonio “Maloco” Jiménez Rodríguez was vice-president of the Hacha Viejas in these early days. Angel Luis Jiménez became president of Council Number Nine; they opened up their own social club across from St. �Teresa to hold meetings and throw smaller parties to raise funds for the Caballeros and the Damas. Through the 1960s these affairs grew as they strove to cater more to the youth groups. St. Teresa had some of the best dances using the new bilingual youth bands that were spreading everywhere throughout Lincoln Park, Lakeview, Wicker Park and the new, expanding Puerto Rican community in Humboldt Park. Ms. Jiménez Rodríguez worked hard volunteering for the Chicago’s Puerto Ricans at St. Michael’s and at St. Teresa. She was also part of the movement to try to get mass held in Spanish. In later years, Ms. Jiménez Rodríguez moved back to Puerto Rico to retire which is where she now lives. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/391b782be2a7f5e89a3be549c541c827.mp4 cbde9e9f4512aa121c09cd7048508759 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Ramonia “Monin” Jiménez Rodríguez vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Idioma español--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Juventud--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Jimenez_Ramonia Title A name given to the resource Ramonia “Monin” Jiménez Rodríguez video interview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, Ramonia Description An account of the resource Ramonia “Monin” Jiménez Rodríguez came to live in the La Clark barrio of Chicago on La Salle near Division Street in the mid-1950s. Ms. Jiménez Rodríguez attended mass at Holy Name Cathedral and St. Joseph. She became involved early in the Council Number Three Damas de María at St. Michael’s Church. There she helped other Damas to cook the arroz con gandules dinners to raise money after mass. There was usually a live band playing and many neighborhood people dancing. She was also part of the movement to try to get mass held in Spanish. In later years, Ms. Jiménez Rodríguez moved back to Puerto Rico to retire which is where she now lives. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Youth--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-06-25 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/446554776fc9ec5d991921873cb28c80.pdf 31bed162ba5db06c903c3326fe5530f7 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Melisa Jiménez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/15/2012 Biography and Description Melisa Jiménez is the youngest daughter of Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. Like his other children she was not able to grow up with Mr. Jiménez. But she has always maintained a close relationship with him, even though they live miles away from each other. Ms. Jiménez’s other siblings are Jackie, Jodie, Sonia, and Alex. Ms. Jiménez lives not far from Mrs. Iberia Hampton, Fred Hampton’s mother, and they have maintained a close personal relationship for many years. Ms. Jiménez was born in the Lincoln Park neighborhood hospital, via the use of the La Maze childbirth method. Her father reminds her that he was the first to hold her. Ms. Jiménez lived in Lincoln Park for the first years of her life until the rent became unbearable for her mother. Only a couple of months after she was born, her father was incarcerated for a year, awaiting trial because his bond was too far out of range for his income. He later explained to her that he was doing, “volunteer work, supporting the Puerto Rican Freedom fighters.” When Mr. Jiménez won the case, Ms. Jiménez was living in Logan Square and they were once again united. This time Jackie, the oldest of Mr. Jiménez’s daughters from another relationship, moved in with them briefly. Teenage Jackie had a young boyfriend who was extremely polite, but very persistent. So Jackie’s mother, frustrated, dropped her off for Mr. Jiménez “to take responsibility and to take care of her.” He gladly agreed. And It was a way for Melisa and Jackie to get to know each other. Each sibling plays a role and Ms. Jiménez has played the role of sibling unifier in a world of divorce and separations. �She graduated from Oak Park River Forest High School in 1998 and attended some college. She loves photography and is an accomplished artist. Some of her jobs have included child care, marketing research and mortgage broker sales. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: [00:00:00] Okay, we were talking about the substance abuse and the neighborhoods being filled with drugs and all that as part of sociology. MELISA JIMENEZ: It’s my personal opinion that that is why my generation lost fathers in the household because you have soldiers who came back traumatized from war. Whether they’re physically okay or not, they were not able to be part of the family the way that families were used to having the man of the house. You have people who were very hard-working who became a part of the Civil Rights Movement and were extremely passionate and had their souls crushed, watching everything around them be destroyed. You know, the movement starts with this anger and it turns into this excitement and this purpose, and then you watch people who [00:01:00] finally understand you be destroyed and killed or discredited. JJ: And so people were talking about that among that group of people, your family, that you call the extended family? Around Angie and -- MJ: I still feel -- and I wasn’t even born then -- I feel it as if it was part of my history, part of a memory I’ve had, and it’s the feeling of it. It’s not the times and dates and, oh, so-and-so did this. It’s something that still affects my generation. I’m getting older now so it may not affect the people who are a little bit younger than me, but it crushes your spirit to think that you can finally have a voice that’s the American dream. Everybody has the right to their own freedom of speech and freedom of opinion, and if you do, you might be destroyed by it. You know, that’s 1 �not really freedom. That’s a trap. And to be able to believe in something [00:02:00] and then have it torn apart is not something that affects one person. It affects everybody. Everybody feels it. JJ: What do you mean, torn apart? Do you believe in something that is torn apart? What do you mean? MJ: To have people, you know, like Malcolm X or Martin Luther King or Fred Hampton or the Reverend -- JJ: Bruce Johnson? MJ: -- Bruce Johnson. People who love their people, but not because it’s a cause. Because they really love people, and they have felt this and they’ve lived through it and they’re finding a way to talk to other people -- JJ: Now, you’re only reading about these people, right? MJ: I’m not reading about just these people. I’m knowing the people that they affected. I grew up with the people that they affected. I just happened to be born in the middle of this, and everybody I know was personally touched, knew these people individually, and -- JJ: I mean, did you know anybody that knew Fred Hampton? MJ: I do. I mean, [00:03:00] you worked with Fred Hampton. You know, you as ChaCha Jiménez, then Fred Hampton created along with the Brown Berets the Rainbow Coalition. JJ: Along with the Young Patriots. MJ: The Young Patriots. JJ: Yeah. That’s all right. 2 �MJ: I know them as -- JJ: Okay, no, no, the Brown Berets were on it too. MJ: I mean, and later in my life, my mother, after she retired, she still did community work but she does it with children. You know, she doesn’t do it -- JJ: Didn’t you know Fred Hampton’s mother? MJ: Yes, that’s what I’m saying. She was doing community events with the children, my mother was, and at a community event, she happened to bump into this other woman and they had a great conversation and that was it. They were at different community events and they kept bumping into each other and they became friends. JJ: Which other woman? MJ: Just because of who they are, how they are a part of the community, they just got along. Their personalities matched. And it wasn’t until months after that that she found out that was Fred Hampton’s mother, and Mrs. Hampton found out that my mother [00:04:00] used to be involved with you, or married to you. So these two women had already developed a friendship without knowing their connection to the movement because it is a neighborhood thing. It’s just a neighborhood feeling. It’s who you are as a person, to take care of each other, that they were involved in activities that was taking care of the whole community and they kept bumping into each other and they really got along and they really started spending time together. They didn’t pass each other’s resumes to each other. They’re just normal women who have loved through this and lost through this and they had a lot in common. 3 �JJ: So what did she say Fred Hampton’s mother was doing? Iberia Hampton. MJ: Iberia Hampton, Mrs. Hampton, she’s been in a number -- her other son, Bill Hampton, is very involved in the community and he works a lot with the children. He sets up incredibly programs with the children and he runs -- JJ: Back in Oak Park? MJ: In Maywood and he [00:05:00] does a lot of work in the city and he runs the Fred Hampton Legal Scholarship Fund to help students become lawyers. But he I think put together a lot of the different events, and because he found out through other parents about my mom and different things she was doing, he came to where she was working at the time and invited her to come to some of these events and she thought that was really nice. She thought some of the kids’ parents invited her. She really didn’t know. And it was months later that they figured out together, we’ve pretty much been running in the same circles all these years, and they’re very good friends. They feel more like family. JJ: So did Fred Hampton’s mother know about the Young Lords? MJ: Oh, sure. I think she’s met you a couple times. We didn’t all know each other at the same time. I wasn’t born yet, but you know, my mother and you and Mrs. Hampton [00:06:00] all had different time periods that you were connected to each other, and it just so happened that even years later, without being an activist or protesting, but just doing things for the kids in the neighborhood, that they were brought together and met each other as two people, normal people. JJ: And so how long as their relationship existed? 4 �MJ: Between my mother and Mrs. Hampton, they’ve been friends for now, like, seven or eight years. JJ: Seven or eight years? MJ: Yeah. JJ: So have you gone there yourself? MJ: I have. I haven’t been there lately and I’m probably in trouble for it, but I need to call her pretty much today. (laughs) I’m a little late. But yeah, no, she actually, my mother and she just talked to each other two days ago. JJ: So you’re consistent. MJ: Yeah, they’re friends. They are good friends. She’s a wonderful person. Her husband was a wonderful [00:07:00] person. He passed away. JJ: What’s his name? MJ: I don’t call them by their first names. I call them Mr. and Mrs. Hampton. But he passed away. JJ: (inaudible). MJ: I went to his funeral. It was sad but they both have beautiful, beautiful spirits. JJ: Did you go to his funeral? Okay. MJ: Yeah. I don’t like people saying funerals are beautiful because it seems painful, but he had a beautiful funeral and it was sad to say goodbye to him, to his spirit. JJ: So how is Mrs. Hampton? How is she? What type of person? MJ: She’s very funny. She can be very quiet but she knows exactly what’s going on and she’s just letting other people do their thing. She allows other people to 5 �express themselves, but she does not miss a second of it. She’s very, very quick and very funny and very loving. [00:08:00] Super sweet. JJ: Okay. Well, what do you mean, she lets them speak? MJ: Well, you know, you almost think that she’s not paying any attention and she’s in the other room doing her own thing and she is not missing a beat. She is on it. Someone says something and she gets excited about it. She’s been paying attention the whole time and she’ll tell you exactly what she feels and it’s obvious she’s been paying attention the entire conversation, not just that minute. Very, very smart. JJ: But you said Ginger called her a couple days ago? MJ: Well, she missed her call. She called back, returned a phone call. No, Bill Hampton’s birthday was last week and they just threw him a surprise party. Then there was a different event this week. It was fun stuff. JJ: So you visit also to the house or just call? MJ: I mean, I [00:09:00] did. I haven’t lately because I’ve been busy working, but I’ve missed seeing a lot of people. (laughs) Don’t be mad at me. JJ: No, no, I’m not mad. I was happy to find out that you knew her, Mrs. Hampton. MJ: Oh, yeah. But it was a complete coincidence, if you believe in them. You know, a lot of people don’t believe in coincidences. But it was very special. I think they were meant to be friends. They just had never met before. They have a good friendship. JJ: And each accepts each other without hesitation or whatever? 6 �MJ: Oh, no, as if they’ve known each other forever, almost sisters. They’re very natural and honest with each other. JJ: ’Cause I know your mother’s a little religious. But she doesn’t call it religion. MJ: No, she’s a spiritual person too. She was raised Catholic. But she’s very spiritual. JJ: And is Mrs. Hampton the same way or similar? MJ: Mrs. Hampton, I know she believes. [00:10:00] They talk about God all the time. They talk about life. They talk about love and pain and they’re just girlfriends. They’re just not teenagers, but you know, it’s like they’re teenagers when they’re around each other. They’re just friends. They have a good relationship. JJ: Okay, so their connection is not just Young Lords or Panthers. MJ: No. It’s more surviving that, losing someone you love -- JJ: Surviving that? MJ: In the movement. You know, there are real people involved in this. This is not just about political heads or people with motives. There are real families that survive it. They lose people or -- I don’t know the word for that. It’s not a negotiation that they get to participate in, but they have to feel all of. You know, Mrs. Hampton lost her son. That’s not [00:11:00] a public thing for her. That’s real personal. Being the wife of someone involved in this and the mother of their child, watching someone’s child -- not legally married, but in our family when you are in a committed relationship, you are basically each other’s husband and wife. You’re each other’s partner. But having a child with that person and watching your child, you know, grow up and have different questions and having to figure 7 �out -- you know, you have your own memories of living through it and then you have to figure out how to help your child get through something normal that they can’t have. You know, these are not things that are part-time and they don’t last for a certain month that there’s a campaign or a certain year that there’s a campaign. This is the everyday forever and the rest of our lives, living through. [00:12:00] It becomes a part of you. It’s something that you grow from. It becomes something you make it through. JJ: What do you know of the death of Fred Hampton? What do you know about that? What happened? MJ: I don’t really know it through newspapers and media. I know it through family stories, like it was someone close to our family, this happened to them. And I know it as -- JJ: Family stories. Who told you? MJ: Both my mother and my father. JJ: Oh. MJ: But my mother had an incredible amount of respect for Fred Hampton. She knew him before she ever met you. She went to school. He spoke at the school she went to several times. JJ: At Roosevelt. MJ: At Roosevelt. JJ: He spoke a lot at Roosevelt, yeah. MJ: And she had a tremendous amount of respect for him. [00:13:00] He was incredibly intelligent and he was in no way violent. He was in no way -- 8 �JJ: Well, he spoke of armed struggle and revolution. MJ: He did speak of those things, but he was more about education and sharing education with other people and not just seeing whose back he can climb up to get there himself, but for everybody to rise up, for everybody to be able to elevate to a new level together. He wanted to be a lawyer. He didn’t wanna be a gangster. He wasn’t a gangster. He wanted to teach everybody around. He wanted everybody to want to learn. He loved learning. He was very respectful. He didn’t come from the street life. He came from the country life. He came from a family life. You know, you came from a family life. You came from a religious home. You’re not people that were out there hustling, trying [00:14:00] to get over and see how much you could get. There’s such a different mentality now of “Screw the person next to me. Whatever I can get. We have to worry about us. We can’t think of anybody else.” And that’s not what either one of you came from or spread. That wasn’t your message. There was no agenda of personal propriety. But no, he was an intellect who wanted to share that wealth. That was the wealth that he wanted to share with other people and that’s what I mean about not violent. You know, he wasn’t out there trying to be the hardest thug on the corner. He was out there trying to spread this information, this knowledge, and that was a very scary threat to government, I guess, to certain government. There’s different [00:15:00] levels of government. There’s city government, state government, national government. And he was murdered for it because he was too loud. He was talking too loud. Too many people were able to hear his message and I believe they, in terms of government -- the government in that 9 �time period. I’m not saying all government. I’m saying that particular regime of government -- did not want people to stay thinking. They didn’t want them to start noticing how things could be different or better or that everybody had a voice. They wanted to have the voice that everybody followed and he was talking too loud for them. So, I mean, in my own words, they assassinated him and that’s still a very special word, a very big word. They killed this man who was about education and fairness, who everybody could relate to and [00:16:00] looked up to, that they maybe could be like that too. “Wow, we could do something for ourselves instead of everything being the same and out of our hands. We could have some sort of power ourselves and be responsible and active ourselves.” That was the opposite of what this particular government regime was interested in and they killed this man. It’s very personal. Assassination is just a big word. That’s a personal thing. They took this man from people ’cause they didn’t agree with him. JJ: Was there any other, like, repression that you were familiar with at that time? Like, even the Young Lords or the Panthers? You know what I mean by repression, right? MJ: I’m not sure what you- JJ: Like trying to stop the movement, trying to repress it, trying to stop it. MJ: I think they were -- JJ: [00:17:00] Were there any, you know, plans to try to do that? Or did they do that? MJ: I think there were just a few moments at the beginning of the Civil Rights Movement where -- 10 �JJ: I mean, that you experienced, I mean. MJ: That I experienced? I was born after the movement was disembodied. JJ: Let me ask you this. When did you first hear about the Young Lords? MJ: I’m sure I heard about it from being four years old or younger, being in the house and hearing about it all the time. But the first time I was aware of it was probably after I asked my mom why we didn’t have any family. It was just the two of us. And part of her telling stories about my family, she also was telling stories about the Young Lords. So I learned at the same time. So from about seven, eight, nine [00:18:00] years old, that’s when I started hearing about the Young Lords. JJ: So how did you feel about that? I mean, you know, what did you hear and how did you feel about it? MJ: I was so proud. I was so tiny and so empowered. (laughs) This itty-bitty little eight-year-old walking around like, “Wow,” you know? This is pretty amazing. First of all, it was very sad to know that people were treated horribly. It was heartbreaking to know that people were not all treated with the same amount of respect, and how could you look at somebody struggling this way and not go and help them? You don’t teach your kids to be mean like that. You teach your kids to be polite and to help people out. So a child is full of kindness and caring for the person in front of them, and to hear that there is people in the [00:19:00] world that are being treated horribly, disrespected constantly, and being not treated as an equal but treated, like, dismissive -- JJ: Who was not being treated as an equal? MJ: Well, I was taught about the whole Civil Rights Movement. 11 �JJ: Okay, it was the Civil Rights Movement and then it was, like, our movement there afterwards, the Panthers and the Young Lords. MJ: But I was taught about the whole history of it. Why was there ever Young Lords or Black Panthers? It’s because of the Civil Rights Movement. Why was there ever a Civil Rights Movement? Because of all this history of pent-up aggression building and building until it bursts. This oppression is overwhelming until there’s got to be a crack in it at some point. I was [layered?] in history, talked about all of it. JJ: Well, who was [the narrator?]? Your mom? MJ: Well, she did teach me about it. She was the first introduction to it because [00:20:00] at eight years old, you’re in second grade. You know, I’m talking about watching movies on TV and not understanding what’s going on and she’s like, “Well, this is related to this part of the country,” or “This part of history.” She was very topical with it, very objective. You know, she would only answer the question I asked. She wouldn’t paint a whole picture for me. It was like, “I don’t understand what that sentence is, Mom. What did she mean?” Or “What did he mean?” And it’s like, “Oh, well, why don’t you go get the encyclopedia? In the 1800s, this is what they used to do.” So it would start a conversation and in second grade, you’re not talking about history. You’re talking about addition and cursive and spelling tests. So we just started those conversations. But that’s how it is all connected and that’s how I was introduced to the Young Lords. It started a doorway of, “Well, why would that happen?” “Because this was happening.” “Well, why did that happen?” “And this bigger thing was 12 �happening.” And so [00:21:00] I don’t remember the original question you asked me, but how I heard about the Young Lords was around seven or eight years old. There was a layering to it. There is something that happened to create this situation, these circumstances that Young Lords was born from, why it was happening. There was a lot going on. JJ: And you said you felt some pride in that? MJ: I was very proud. Once I understood that people would ever be treated that way, then it was like, well, somebody has to do something about it. That’s just the natural thing. When you get in trouble in school, it’s like somebody’s responsible. Aren’t you going to tell the teacher to help? You don’t just let somebody sit there and bleed, you know? Somebody has to help. Somebody has to do something. And so even as a child, you have the mentality of, “Well, what happened next? Didn’t somebody do anything?” And it was like, “Well, yes. In our area, you know, people in this area were the ones that were bleeding and [00:22:00] they got tired of watching their parents bleed and they would be hurt, be stifled by all their efforts. They’re trying just to make a home for their family and everything they’re doing keeps being undone or undercut and their children got tired of watching it. They got tired of being pushed around and watching their parents being knocked over and they stood up and spoke back and said, we have rights and we deserve respect and this is what we need and you cannot ignore our voices.” And in this area, that was the Young Lords. That was happening all over the country, but the thing that is so significant about the Young Lords is it didn’t start as an organized program or an organization. It started as a street 13 �gang and it is still to this point in history the only street gang that turned into a political organization. It did not manhandle its way into papers [00:23:00] and thug out the neighborhood or steal from people. It was for the people and it didn’t start off in a classroom. It started in the streets, protecting their own homes, and what I’m aware of, that’s the only group that has started out as a street gang and become a political organization. JJ: So protecting their own homes, was that an issue that they were, you know, attacking? MJ: I mean, from what I’m told. JJ: Yeah, from your understanding. MJ: From what I understand. JJ: Well, what were the main issues? MJ: People were getting -- JJ: It had to do with Puerto Ricans ’cause it had to do with Puerto Rico. MJ: Well, that whole area was mainly -- even though there were different ethnic backgrounds, it was mainly Puerto Rican at the time. That was the Puerto Rican neighborhood of the city and it happened to be lakefront property as well and it was more valuable monetarily to people [00:24:00] in power at that time, whether it was corporate or government. And so they were coming in and telling people, “It’s time to move.” JJ: They were telling people to move? MJ: They were raising people’s rents from 80 dollars to 400 in a month or 120 dollars to 800 dollars the next month. Well, you can’t pay? You gotta go. This is how I 14 �was told. As I was told, there were times as well that people were being manhandled directly out of their homes. Someone would just come in and kick all of their things out onto the ground and say, “You don’t live here anymore. Go. You guys can move over.” JJ: [The share?], basically, [’cause it was the candles?] (inaudible). MJ: But that’s gotta be quite an experience to know you’re doing everything you can to pay your bills and you’re paying them and you come home from work one day and someone just told you, “You moved today, in case you didn’t know.” [00:25:00] And you can’t do anything about it. There’s nobody to go to. JJ: But even while you were growing up, you’re saying the neighborhood was still changing, no? MJ: When I was growing up? JJ: Yeah. Or you didn’t notice? I mean, you weren’t living there anymore, but I mean, you went back there ’cause the neighborhood is completely changed, right? MJ: It has completely changed. They kept the shape of it, but they changed everything in between. I guess when I was growing up, it did change. It was much more human before. You could just walk down the street and know somebody and everybody was happy to just wave and say hello, and now it’s just a tourist spot and the people who live there are not very welcoming. (laughs) But mostly it’s a tourist area. And [00:26:00] no, before it was, like, going to visit your cousin’s house. JJ: So do you remember before? 15 �MJ: Yeah. JJ: Okay. MJ: You knew everybody on the block and you just got off the bus or came off the train, and walking to the person’s house you’re going to, you see five different people you know. You stop and you have a conversation, like a neighborhood. Like home. And you don’t know anybody there now. They don’t do that with each other. JJ: Okay. So that made you feel proud in everything. You had some proud moments. What about some painful moments when they talked about the Young Lords? With you, since your father was involved in it. Did you ever have any painful moments? MJ: Painful moments, I think that we all did. JJ: Did anybody talk [00:27:00] negative about the Young Lords? MJ: Sure. I mean, I have bumped into people and I tend not to introduce myself first if I’m in an area where people still talk about the Young Lords, not because I’m not proud, because I’d rather get an honest reaction to what they think. I am always absorbing information and I love to get a lot of different perspectives and I don’t take it personal because that was their experience, so I wanna hear it. JJ: What are some of the negative things that you heard? MJ: (laughs) I remember walking into a building once and I was with someone who could not wait to introduce me and I was like, “Shh. Just say hello. Give this person a chance to get up in their chair.” And this person was very polite and shook my hand and I said, “I’m Melisa,” and he told me his name. And the 16 �person I was with said, “Oh, do you remember that guy? You know the Young Lords. Do you remember that guy, Cha-Cha?” “Oh my God, that thug. He used to --” [00:28:00] I mean, I was laughing ’cause he’s sitting there, he’s like, “He used to just make so much trouble around here. He was such a headache and I can’t believe --” And I guess the person I was with gave him a look because all the sudden, he stopped talking and he looked at me, and then I was introduced as Cha-Cha’s daughter and he just went completely pale and he was like, “I’m so sorry.” I said, “Why would you be? Maybe he was mean to you. (laughs) Maybe you guys didn’t like each other. That’s your experience and I’m not taking anything away from that.” And he was like, “No, but I’m so sorry,” and I said, “That was your experience. That’s your history. But I happen to like the guy so I’m okay with it. So don’t worry about it.” And he just couldn’t catch his breath for a long time. I felt bad. But I don’t introduce myself first, and it’s not to set anybody up. I just wanna know what they really think, what their real memories were. I wasn’t older at that time period, so I like to know what people went through. JJ: Actually there’s a similar experience that my mother [00:29:00] had with somebody from the church. So you know, that’s kind of a pretty good -- because it was like 50-50 real controversial. MJ: It wasn’t controversial. I’ve bumped into people that just said, like, I was royalty, like you were royalty, and “Oh my God, you’re his daughter.” And that experience is much more common than the other. But, like, I didn’t do anything. You know, I’m glad that you had a positive experience. And they’re like, “No, no, this was so 17 �important. He did this and he did this.” I’ve had people treat me wonderfully because of how much it meant to them and I’ve had people be very nasty because they don’t agree with the politics and I personally -JJ: I know you’re joking but it must hurt. MJ: No, it doesn’t hurt because I like to see how people think. I like to see through other people’s eyes. JJ: That’s now, but when you were growing up. MJ: No. JJ: [00:30:00] Never? MJ: Because I was a child and there was more of a filter on them. I was prepared for it, but they had more of a filter because they were looking at a child, and I mean, you shouldn’t attack a child. But when they were honest about what they said, I appreciated it. I want to know all of the story. I don’t wanna know just the things I like or I agree with. And I need to understand. That’s how I’ve learned about it, by being open about it and not expecting someone to agree with something that I think. That’s not gonna work. JJ: I’m gonna kind of wrap it up a little bit, but I just wanted to -- MJ: Am I a talker? (laughs) JJ: No, no, no. No, I was just trying to -- MJ: I am, it’s all right. JJ: -- just because of the schedule. MJ: Okay. No, I have had painful moments, though. JJ: You had painful moments? 18 �MJ: I didn’t lose my father like Angie’s kids did or like Fred Hampton [00:31:00] Junior did, but I still lost my father, having a father in my home. My brothers and sisters still lost having a father while they were growing up. And we’ve had the opportunity to still get to know you, which they didn’t, but we still lost the possession of, “That’s my dad. He just belongs to me and everybody else doesn’t get a piece of him. He’s just ours.” We didn’t get that opportunity. And maybe that had something to do with it. When my mother and I left when I was four and a half during the height of your substance abuse, very shortly after, you disappeared. [00:32:00] You were just gone and nobody knew where you were and I think some people even blamed my mom. Like, if you hadn’t left him, he wouldn’t have just disappeared, you know? What did you do? Nobody can find him. No one even knows where he is. And that went on for a little while, and then a couple years passed and then -- JJ: So that went on for a few years. MJ: It went on for a little while. JJ: Like, five years, something like that. MJ: A little while. A couple years later, people started trying to prepare themselves that you just were never coming back, and so they started saying, you know, “I don’t wanna say the thing that you’re not supposed to say, but I think he’s dead.” And they would try not to say it around me but I heard them talking about it and I knew it wasn’t true. And more time passed. Then it finally got to being five years, you were gone and nobody knew where you were. Everybody [00:33:00] had accepted that you were just dead. 19 �JJ: You’re talking about family members? MJ: Family members were at the point -- five years after my mother and I left, five years almost to the day, everybody for at least the last six months had been trying to figure out how do we tell Melisa that her father is dead? Because she walks around here like -- she’s just so happy and she’s gonna talk to him one day, and we have to figure out how to tell her. And they were whispering about it over and over and I know that I went up to them one day. I was nine years old at the time. And I put my hand on Angie’s hand and I put my other hand on my mom’s hand and I said, “Don’t worry, he’s not dead. I know he’s not dead. You guys don’t have to worry about how to talk to me about it.” And they just couldn’t believe that I even knew what they were talking about, but I seriously said, “I can [00:34:00] feel him. I know he’s okay. He’s just not ready to be with us right now. But don’t worry.” And Angie seriously was like -- they never talked about it again, and within a month -- I’m gonna tell you -- that particular month I prayed for two things, and never in my life, I have never prayed to ask for something back. I pray to thank God for things. I don’t pray to ask for things in return. But that month, I prayed for two things, and one of them was just for my dad to let everybody know he was okay. Even if he’s not ready to come back, can you just please -- they’re starting to really worry. Can you just let him know or have him let everybody know that he’s okay? And then I prayed for something else. And that particular month, not even a week later, my mom got a call from Angie and said, “You will not believe. He’s alive. He’s gonna be here on Friday. He wanted to know if you would bring Melisa because he really wants to see her.” 20 �[00:35:00] And they just couldn’t believe. And I told my mom, I said, “I’m not supposed to tell you what I talked to God about because that’s between us, but I knew he was going to --” And maybe that sounds mystical and spooky or whatever, but those are the only two things in my life that I ever asked for, and that month, they both came true. Not that I’m saying I had any effect on that, but I’m saying the timeframe, when I was four and a half and we left you, soon after, you left, and the whole family went through an experience where they grieved your loss. They really believed you were gone. Everybody was certain of it because by that point, five years had passed. They tried for years to just deal with the fact that you were probably underground or something or maybe just doing drugs and not in a good place. And they finally got to the point where they accepted that you were gone and they really went through a hard time trying to figure out how to tell your kids that we would never see you again. But [00:36:00] your mother -- my grandmother -- and I knew that you were alive because we both could feel you and we talked about it. Everybody else was really broken, trying to figure out how to help us deal with it ’cause they thought we were in denial. And lo and behold, you showed up in Chicago (laughs) within the same month and you were okay and you had changed your life in a big way and you were in a good place. And everybody was just shocked. They really thought you were gone. And that was not an easy time. It was sad. But I knew that you were okay. I just knew that I didn’t know when I would ever talk to you again. I didn’t know. At that time, I had no picture of your face in my mind. I just remembered loving you and you loving me. But I could not remember your face. And then 21 �everybody around me is so sad, thinking you’re gone. That was hard to watch everybody I loved so sad. JJ: So do you remember where -- MJ: [00:37:00] I don’t remember when you left the city but I know that you moved to Michigan. By the time you came back, you were living in Michigan and you came back just to see us. JJ: Right. I was trying to get myself together. MJ: You did. You did a very good job. JJ: I was going a little downhill by that time and I didn’t have the [will?] or money or anything like that (inaudible). And my perfectionism, I had to make sure everything’s perfect. MJ: You are, and I missed a lot of times spending time with you because you were afraid you didn’t have anything to give me and I didn’t want anything but you. And that took a few years for you to accept that. JJ: I keep that in mind now. MJ: All right, good. (laughter) That’s good. You don’t need to give me anything. No. But we missed more time later. JJ: What did you want? What did you want to tell your father? What was the most important thing that you wanted people to know? Not just [00:38:00] your father. Maybe the world or -- about you. MJ: About me? That’s a loaded question. You have layers to that. 22 �JJ: Okay, (inaudible). I mean, what’s the main thing that you want people to know about you? This is an oral history (inaudible) but I [shouldn’t be so formal?] after what you just said. MJ: (laughter) No. I don’t know that there’s anything I need the world to know about me. JJ: Or me, maybe I don’t -- ’cause I was underground. I’m just trying to go with [that?]. MJ: I think people don’t know that you are hilarious unless they know you. They don’t know that you’re hilarious. You have an incredible sense of humor and you are always cracking jokes at moments that everybody thinks you’re gonna be serious, just come out of nowhere and everybody’s cracking up because it’s a surprise. JJ: But I was talking about you. MJ: [00:39:00] I know. JJ: Okay. MJ: I’m just saying I don’t think anybody knows -- and I’m not sure if you’re ready for anybody to know -- that you’re very sensitive. JJ: What do you mean? MJ: (laughs) You’re very sensitive. You’re very loving. You love your children very much. You may not always know how to share that with them or they don’t know how to receive it from you, but I don’t think there’s a way to measure how much we mean to you, and it’s obvious. It’s just there’s other things that go with it, other emotions that go with it. But you are very sensitive and things hit you. 23 �People are a little rough with you. People are used to you being hardcore and determined and focused, and you’re human. You’re very caring. About me? I don’t really think that -- [00:40:00] maybe we have not discussed fully, you know, all of my opinions. We don’t need to have all my opinions. But all the things we have talked about, I’m very passionate about. They mean a lot to me. They’re the majority of the rest of what makes up me. You know, my mother and father and the rest of my family are the core of me and all of the things we talked about are very much the rest of me. They mean a lot to me. It seems real basic and yet it’s lost on our culture now to treat people with care and respect and look out for each other, not to cover for each other when you’re doing something you shouldn’t be doing. Look out that you are all doing well, that you are healthy, that your needs are met, that you’re not alone in this world, that we’re each other’s, you know, keeper. It’s real simple. It’s in all the religions. [00:41:00] It’s not one religious belief. It’s how you treat each other, and I don’t think that any of these issues would be real if we had that, if that was happening, if people were treating each other equally or respectfully. There may never have been a Civil Rights Movement. What would we talk about? I don’t know. JJ: So you feel like the Young Lords were like a civil rights movement. MJ: Yeah. JJ: ’Cause some people don’t look at -- I mean, like when we were talking about, they still think it’s a gang or whatever. MJ: You’re taking care of basic needs. JJ: To you, why do you look at it like a civil rights movement or a movement? 24 �MJ: What I know of what they actually accomplished, what they were involved in, what people were participating in, it’s taking care of basic needs in an entire community that should have been leveled. Everybody [00:42:00] everywhere should have these basic things. You should be able to have clean water and food to eat and healthcare and education and immunizations, and civil rights is the basic line of saying we all have these basic human rights and they’re fair for everybody, and if somebody slips, we just have to remind them, “No, no, no, you might have crossed the line with somebody. Come back. This is where your mistake was made.” But it’s for everybody. They’re real simple. It’s not complicated. It’s not like trigonometry or something. It’s real basic human needs and rights and respect, and when people slip up, they get so lost in their personal greed and hunger for power, they are willing to destroy anything in their path, and sometimes it’s entire cultures. And [00:43:00] that’s not acceptable. Everybody should be enraged by that or at least passionate enough to say something. It should matter. It’s real simple. I don’t know how else to -- JJ: That’s good. I know that your father was attacking Mayor Daley a lot because of the displacement of the Puerto Rican community and he was Irish and you have a little Irish -- MJ: I’m half-Irish, yes. JJ: You’re half-Irish. How did you feel about that? You know, we’re attacking -- MJ: I don’t take it as a cultural attack. I take it as two men who have very clear opinions and they do not agree with each other. (laughter) Point blank. And 25 �they’re in different positions and they both speak until they’re heard. Both of them. So there’s different repercussions to that, though. JJ: And it’s never about the Irish. It’s about -- MJ: [00:44:00] No, I never -- JJ: -- the policy. MJ: I don’t think that has anything to do with that, no. JJ: Because I’m just joking. It’s about the wrong policies of the mayor. I never had an attack personally on him. But it’s an attack on his policies, basically. We just felt they were corrupt and incorrect and we didn’t agree with that. Any final thoughts? Any final thoughts? MJ: Educate yourselves. (laughs) Don’t take somebody’s word for it because you’ve known them for a long time or because they’re someplace in the world that you wish you could be. Educate yourself. You know, if you hear something that’s different from anything you’ve ever heard before, look around. Get different perspectives. Don’t just open a textbook because they all come from the same publishing company. Read different sources. Talk to different people and be open to different perceptions. Everybody has a different place they’re standing from. They [00:45:00] get a different view of what’s happening even in the same moment. So learn. Just learn. That’s real important. Otherwise you’re gonna let somebody else decide your destiny. JJ: Thank you. END OF VIDEO FILE 26 �27 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7bbcf72cd601369e2df52710367f8510.mp4 56592d6e98c121620fc07c59c69d51d9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Melisa Jiménez vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 2 Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Jimenez_Melisa_2 Title A name given to the resource Melisa Jiménez video interview and transcript, interview 2 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, Melisa Description An account of the resource Melisa Jiménez is the youngest daughter of Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. Like his other children she was not able to grow up with Mr. Jiménez. But she has always maintained a close relationship with him, even though they live miles away from each other. Ms. Jiménez’s other siblings are Jackie, Jodie, Sonia, and Alex. Ms. Jiménez lives not far from Mrs. Iberia Hampton, Fred Hampton’s mother, and they have maintained a close personal relationship for many years. Ms. Jiménez was born in the Lincoln Park neighborhood hospital, via the use of the La Maze childbirth method. Her father reminds her that he was the first to hold her. Ms. Jiménez lived in Lincoln Park for the first years of her life until the rent became unbearable for her mother. Only a couple of months after she was born, her father was incarcerated for a year, awaiting trial because his bond was too far out of range for his income. He later explained to her that he was doing, “volunteer work, supporting the Puerto Rican Freedom fighters.” When Mr. Jiménez won the case, Ms. Jiménez was living in Logan Square and they were once again united. This time Jackie, the oldest of Mr. Jiménez’s daughters from another relationship, moved in with them briefly. Teenage Jackie had a young boyfriend who was extremely polite, but very persistent. So Jackie’s mother, frustrated, dropped her off for Mr. Jiménez “to take responsibility and to take care of her.” He gladly agreed. And It was a way for Melisa and Jackie to get to know each other. Each sibling plays a role and Ms. Jiménez has played the role of sibling unifier in a world of divorce and separations. She graduated from Oak Park River Forest High School in 1998 and attended some college. She loves photography and is an accomplished artist. Some of her jobs have included child care, marketing research and mortgage broker sales. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-15 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d84e090228651be9efc7c279456114c5.pdf 4432c12379a61b6df25c4eb325890351 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Melisa Jiménez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/15/2012 Biography and Description Melisa Jiménez is the youngest daughter of Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. Like his other children she was not able to grow up with Mr. Jiménez. But she has always maintained a close relationship with him, even though they live miles away from each other. Ms. Jiménez’s other siblings are Jackie, Jodie, Sonia, and Alex. Ms. Jiménez lives not far from Mrs. Iberia Hampton, Fred Hampton’s mother, and they have maintained a close personal relationship for many years. Ms. Jiménez was born in the Lincoln Park neighborhood hospital, via the use of the La Maze childbirth method. Her father reminds her that he was the first to hold her. Ms. Jiménez lived in Lincoln Park for the first years of her life until the rent became unbearable for her mother. Only a couple of months after she was born, her father was incarcerated for a year, awaiting trial because his bond was too far out of range for his income. He later explained to her that he was doing, “volunteer work, supporting the Puerto Rican Freedom fighters.” When Mr. Jiménez won the case, Ms. Jiménez was living in Logan Square and they were once again united. This time Jackie, the oldest of Mr. Jiménez’s daughters from another relationship, moved in with them briefly. Teenage Jackie had a young boyfriend who was extremely polite, but very persistent. So Jackie’s mother, frustrated, dropped her off for Mr. Jiménez “to take responsibility and to take care of her.” He gladly agreed. And It was a way for Melisa and Jackie to get to know each other. Each sibling plays a role and Ms. Jiménez has played the role of sibling unifier in a world of divorce and separations. �She graduated from Oak Park River Forest High School in 1998 and attended some college. She loves photography and is an accomplished artist. Some of her jobs have included child care, marketing research and mortgage broker sales. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: [00:00:00] Okay, we were talking about the substance abuse and the neighborhoods being filled with drugs and all that as part of sociology. MELISA JIMENEZ: It’s my personal opinion that that is why my generation lost fathers in the household because you have soldiers who came back traumatized from war. Whether they’re physically okay or not, they were not able to be part of the family the way that families were used to having the man of the house. You have people who were very hard-working who became a part of the Civil Rights Movement and were extremely passionate and had their souls crushed, watching everything around them be destroyed. You know, the movement starts with this anger and it turns into this excitement and this purpose, and then you watch people who [00:01:00] finally understand you be destroyed and killed or discredited. JJ: And so people were talking about that among that group of people, your family, that you call the extended family? Around Angie and -- MJ: I still feel -- and I wasn’t even born then -- I feel it as if it was part of my history, part of a memory I’ve had, and it’s the feeling of it. It’s not the times and dates and, oh, so-and-so did this. It’s something that still affects my generation. I’m getting older now so it may not affect the people who are a little bit younger than me, but it crushes your spirit to think that you can finally have a voice that’s the American dream. Everybody has the right to their own freedom of speech and freedom of opinion, and if you do, you might be destroyed by it. You know, that’s 1 �not really freedom. That’s a trap. And to be able to believe in something [00:02:00] and then have it torn apart is not something that affects one person. It affects everybody. Everybody feels it. JJ: What do you mean, torn apart? Do you believe in something that is torn apart? What do you mean? MJ: To have people, you know, like Malcolm X or Martin Luther King or Fred Hampton or the Reverend -- JJ: Bruce Johnson? MJ: -- Bruce Johnson. People who love their people, but not because it’s a cause. Because they really love people, and they have felt this and they’ve lived through it and they’re finding a way to talk to other people -- JJ: Now, you’re only reading about these people, right? MJ: I’m not reading about just these people. I’m knowing the people that they affected. I grew up with the people that they affected. I just happened to be born in the middle of this, and everybody I know was personally touched, knew these people individually, and -- JJ: I mean, did you know anybody that knew Fred Hampton? MJ: I do. I mean, [00:03:00] you worked with Fred Hampton. You know, you as ChaCha Jiménez, then Fred Hampton created along with the Brown Berets the Rainbow Coalition. JJ: Along with the Young Patriots. MJ: The Young Patriots. JJ: Yeah. That’s all right. 2 �MJ: I know them as -- JJ: Okay, no, no, the Brown Berets were on it too. MJ: I mean, and later in my life, my mother, after she retired, she still did community work but she does it with children. You know, she doesn’t do it -- JJ: Didn’t you know Fred Hampton’s mother? MJ: Yes, that’s what I’m saying. She was doing community events with the children, my mother was, and at a community event, she happened to bump into this other woman and they had a great conversation and that was it. They were at different community events and they kept bumping into each other and they became friends. JJ: Which other woman? MJ: Just because of who they are, how they are a part of the community, they just got along. Their personalities matched. And it wasn’t until months after that that she found out that was Fred Hampton’s mother, and Mrs. Hampton found out that my mother [00:04:00] used to be involved with you, or married to you. So these two women had already developed a friendship without knowing their connection to the movement because it is a neighborhood thing. It’s just a neighborhood feeling. It’s who you are as a person, to take care of each other, that they were involved in activities that was taking care of the whole community and they kept bumping into each other and they really got along and they really started spending time together. They didn’t pass each other’s resumes to each other. They’re just normal women who have loved through this and lost through this and they had a lot in common. 3 �JJ: So what did she say Fred Hampton’s mother was doing? Iberia Hampton. MJ: Iberia Hampton, Mrs. Hampton, she’s been in a number -- her other son, Bill Hampton, is very involved in the community and he works a lot with the children. He sets up incredibly programs with the children and he runs -- JJ: Back in Oak Park? MJ: In Maywood and he [00:05:00] does a lot of work in the city and he runs the Fred Hampton Legal Scholarship Fund to help students become lawyers. But he I think put together a lot of the different events, and because he found out through other parents about my mom and different things she was doing, he came to where she was working at the time and invited her to come to some of these events and she thought that was really nice. She thought some of the kids’ parents invited her. She really didn’t know. And it was months later that they figured out together, we’ve pretty much been running in the same circles all these years, and they’re very good friends. They feel more like family. JJ: So did Fred Hampton’s mother know about the Young Lords? MJ: Oh, sure. I think she’s met you a couple times. We didn’t all know each other at the same time. I wasn’t born yet, but you know, my mother and you and Mrs. Hampton [00:06:00] all had different time periods that you were connected to each other, and it just so happened that even years later, without being an activist or protesting, but just doing things for the kids in the neighborhood, that they were brought together and met each other as two people, normal people. JJ: And so how long as their relationship existed? 4 �MJ: Between my mother and Mrs. Hampton, they’ve been friends for now, like, seven or eight years. JJ: Seven or eight years? MJ: Yeah. JJ: So have you gone there yourself? MJ: I have. I haven’t been there lately and I’m probably in trouble for it, but I need to call her pretty much today. (laughs) I’m a little late. But yeah, no, she actually, my mother and she just talked to each other two days ago. JJ: So you’re consistent. MJ: Yeah, they’re friends. They are good friends. She’s a wonderful person. Her husband was a wonderful [00:07:00] person. He passed away. JJ: What’s his name? MJ: I don’t call them by their first names. I call them Mr. and Mrs. Hampton. But he passed away. JJ: (inaudible). MJ: I went to his funeral. It was sad but they both have beautiful, beautiful spirits. JJ: Did you go to his funeral? Okay. MJ: Yeah. I don’t like people saying funerals are beautiful because it seems painful, but he had a beautiful funeral and it was sad to say goodbye to him, to his spirit. JJ: So how is Mrs. Hampton? How is she? What type of person? MJ: She’s very funny. She can be very quiet but she knows exactly what’s going on and she’s just letting other people do their thing. She allows other people to 5 �express themselves, but she does not miss a second of it. She’s very, very quick and very funny and very loving. [00:08:00] Super sweet. JJ: Okay. Well, what do you mean, she lets them speak? MJ: Well, you know, you almost think that she’s not paying any attention and she’s in the other room doing her own thing and she is not missing a beat. She is on it. Someone says something and she gets excited about it. She’s been paying attention the whole time and she’ll tell you exactly what she feels and it’s obvious she’s been paying attention the entire conversation, not just that minute. Very, very smart. JJ: But you said Ginger called her a couple days ago? MJ: Well, she missed her call. She called back, returned a phone call. No, Bill Hampton’s birthday was last week and they just threw him a surprise party. Then there was a different event this week. It was fun stuff. JJ: So you visit also to the house or just call? MJ: I mean, I [00:09:00] did. I haven’t lately because I’ve been busy working, but I’ve missed seeing a lot of people. (laughs) Don’t be mad at me. JJ: No, no, I’m not mad. I was happy to find out that you knew her, Mrs. Hampton. MJ: Oh, yeah. But it was a complete coincidence, if you believe in them. You know, a lot of people don’t believe in coincidences. But it was very special. I think they were meant to be friends. They just had never met before. They have a good friendship. JJ: And each accepts each other without hesitation or whatever? 6 �MJ: Oh, no, as if they’ve known each other forever, almost sisters. They’re very natural and honest with each other. JJ: ’Cause I know your mother’s a little religious. But she doesn’t call it religion. MJ: No, she’s a spiritual person too. She was raised Catholic. But she’s very spiritual. JJ: And is Mrs. Hampton the same way or similar? MJ: Mrs. Hampton, I know she believes. [00:10:00] They talk about God all the time. They talk about life. They talk about love and pain and they’re just girlfriends. They’re just not teenagers, but you know, it’s like they’re teenagers when they’re around each other. They’re just friends. They have a good relationship. JJ: Okay, so their connection is not just Young Lords or Panthers. MJ: No. It’s more surviving that, losing someone you love -- JJ: Surviving that? MJ: In the movement. You know, there are real people involved in this. This is not just about political heads or people with motives. There are real families that survive it. They lose people or -- I don’t know the word for that. It’s not a negotiation that they get to participate in, but they have to feel all of. You know, Mrs. Hampton lost her son. That’s not [00:11:00] a public thing for her. That’s real personal. Being the wife of someone involved in this and the mother of their child, watching someone’s child -- not legally married, but in our family when you are in a committed relationship, you are basically each other’s husband and wife. You’re each other’s partner. But having a child with that person and watching your child, you know, grow up and have different questions and having to figure 7 �out -- you know, you have your own memories of living through it and then you have to figure out how to help your child get through something normal that they can’t have. You know, these are not things that are part-time and they don’t last for a certain month that there’s a campaign or a certain year that there’s a campaign. This is the everyday forever and the rest of our lives, living through. [00:12:00] It becomes a part of you. It’s something that you grow from. It becomes something you make it through. JJ: What do you know of the death of Fred Hampton? What do you know about that? What happened? MJ: I don’t really know it through newspapers and media. I know it through family stories, like it was someone close to our family, this happened to them. And I know it as -- JJ: Family stories. Who told you? MJ: Both my mother and my father. JJ: Oh. MJ: But my mother had an incredible amount of respect for Fred Hampton. She knew him before she ever met you. She went to school. He spoke at the school she went to several times. JJ: At Roosevelt. MJ: At Roosevelt. JJ: He spoke a lot at Roosevelt, yeah. MJ: And she had a tremendous amount of respect for him. [00:13:00] He was incredibly intelligent and he was in no way violent. He was in no way -- 8 �JJ: Well, he spoke of armed struggle and revolution. MJ: He did speak of those things, but he was more about education and sharing education with other people and not just seeing whose back he can climb up to get there himself, but for everybody to rise up, for everybody to be able to elevate to a new level together. He wanted to be a lawyer. He didn’t wanna be a gangster. He wasn’t a gangster. He wanted to teach everybody around. He wanted everybody to want to learn. He loved learning. He was very respectful. He didn’t come from the street life. He came from the country life. He came from a family life. You know, you came from a family life. You came from a religious home. You’re not people that were out there hustling, trying [00:14:00] to get over and see how much you could get. There’s such a different mentality now of “Screw the person next to me. Whatever I can get. We have to worry about us. We can’t think of anybody else.” And that’s not what either one of you came from or spread. That wasn’t your message. There was no agenda of personal propriety. But no, he was an intellect who wanted to share that wealth. That was the wealth that he wanted to share with other people and that’s what I mean about not violent. You know, he wasn’t out there trying to be the hardest thug on the corner. He was out there trying to spread this information, this knowledge, and that was a very scary threat to government, I guess, to certain government. There’s different [00:15:00] levels of government. There’s city government, state government, national government. And he was murdered for it because he was too loud. He was talking too loud. Too many people were able to hear his message and I believe they, in terms of government -- the government in that 9 �time period. I’m not saying all government. I’m saying that particular regime of government -- did not want people to stay thinking. They didn’t want them to start noticing how things could be different or better or that everybody had a voice. They wanted to have the voice that everybody followed and he was talking too loud for them. So, I mean, in my own words, they assassinated him and that’s still a very special word, a very big word. They killed this man who was about education and fairness, who everybody could relate to and [00:16:00] looked up to, that they maybe could be like that too. “Wow, we could do something for ourselves instead of everything being the same and out of our hands. We could have some sort of power ourselves and be responsible and active ourselves.” That was the opposite of what this particular government regime was interested in and they killed this man. It’s very personal. Assassination is just a big word. That’s a personal thing. They took this man from people ’cause they didn’t agree with him. JJ: Was there any other, like, repression that you were familiar with at that time? Like, even the Young Lords or the Panthers? You know what I mean by repression, right? MJ: I’m not sure what you- JJ: Like trying to stop the movement, trying to repress it, trying to stop it. MJ: I think they were -- JJ: [00:17:00] Were there any, you know, plans to try to do that? Or did they do that? MJ: I think there were just a few moments at the beginning of the Civil Rights Movement where -- 10 �JJ: I mean, that you experienced, I mean. MJ: That I experienced? I was born after the movement was disembodied. JJ: Let me ask you this. When did you first hear about the Young Lords? MJ: I’m sure I heard about it from being four years old or younger, being in the house and hearing about it all the time. But the first time I was aware of it was probably after I asked my mom why we didn’t have any family. It was just the two of us. And part of her telling stories about my family, she also was telling stories about the Young Lords. So I learned at the same time. So from about seven, eight, nine [00:18:00] years old, that’s when I started hearing about the Young Lords. JJ: So how did you feel about that? I mean, you know, what did you hear and how did you feel about it? MJ: I was so proud. I was so tiny and so empowered. (laughs) This itty-bitty little eight-year-old walking around like, “Wow,” you know? This is pretty amazing. First of all, it was very sad to know that people were treated horribly. It was heartbreaking to know that people were not all treated with the same amount of respect, and how could you look at somebody struggling this way and not go and help them? You don’t teach your kids to be mean like that. You teach your kids to be polite and to help people out. So a child is full of kindness and caring for the person in front of them, and to hear that there is people in the [00:19:00] world that are being treated horribly, disrespected constantly, and being not treated as an equal but treated, like, dismissive -- JJ: Who was not being treated as an equal? MJ: Well, I was taught about the whole Civil Rights Movement. 11 �JJ: Okay, it was the Civil Rights Movement and then it was, like, our movement there afterwards, the Panthers and the Young Lords. MJ: But I was taught about the whole history of it. Why was there ever Young Lords or Black Panthers? It’s because of the Civil Rights Movement. Why was there ever a Civil Rights Movement? Because of all this history of pent-up aggression building and building until it bursts. This oppression is overwhelming until there’s got to be a crack in it at some point. I was [layered?] in history, talked about all of it. JJ: Well, who was [the narrator?]? Your mom? MJ: Well, she did teach me about it. She was the first introduction to it because [00:20:00] at eight years old, you’re in second grade. You know, I’m talking about watching movies on TV and not understanding what’s going on and she’s like, “Well, this is related to this part of the country,” or “This part of history.” She was very topical with it, very objective. You know, she would only answer the question I asked. She wouldn’t paint a whole picture for me. It was like, “I don’t understand what that sentence is, Mom. What did she mean?” Or “What did he mean?” And it’s like, “Oh, well, why don’t you go get the encyclopedia? In the 1800s, this is what they used to do.” So it would start a conversation and in second grade, you’re not talking about history. You’re talking about addition and cursive and spelling tests. So we just started those conversations. But that’s how it is all connected and that’s how I was introduced to the Young Lords. It started a doorway of, “Well, why would that happen?” “Because this was happening.” “Well, why did that happen?” “And this bigger thing was 12 �happening.” And so [00:21:00] I don’t remember the original question you asked me, but how I heard about the Young Lords was around seven or eight years old. There was a layering to it. There is something that happened to create this situation, these circumstances that Young Lords was born from, why it was happening. There was a lot going on. JJ: And you said you felt some pride in that? MJ: I was very proud. Once I understood that people would ever be treated that way, then it was like, well, somebody has to do something about it. That’s just the natural thing. When you get in trouble in school, it’s like somebody’s responsible. Aren’t you going to tell the teacher to help? You don’t just let somebody sit there and bleed, you know? Somebody has to help. Somebody has to do something. And so even as a child, you have the mentality of, “Well, what happened next? Didn’t somebody do anything?” And it was like, “Well, yes. In our area, you know, people in this area were the ones that were bleeding and [00:22:00] they got tired of watching their parents bleed and they would be hurt, be stifled by all their efforts. They’re trying just to make a home for their family and everything they’re doing keeps being undone or undercut and their children got tired of watching it. They got tired of being pushed around and watching their parents being knocked over and they stood up and spoke back and said, we have rights and we deserve respect and this is what we need and you cannot ignore our voices.” And in this area, that was the Young Lords. That was happening all over the country, but the thing that is so significant about the Young Lords is it didn’t start as an organized program or an organization. It started as a street 13 �gang and it is still to this point in history the only street gang that turned into a political organization. It did not manhandle its way into papers [00:23:00] and thug out the neighborhood or steal from people. It was for the people and it didn’t start off in a classroom. It started in the streets, protecting their own homes, and what I’m aware of, that’s the only group that has started out as a street gang and become a political organization. JJ: So protecting their own homes, was that an issue that they were, you know, attacking? MJ: I mean, from what I’m told. JJ: Yeah, from your understanding. MJ: From what I understand. JJ: Well, what were the main issues? MJ: People were getting -- JJ: It had to do with Puerto Ricans ’cause it had to do with Puerto Rico. MJ: Well, that whole area was mainly -- even though there were different ethnic backgrounds, it was mainly Puerto Rican at the time. That was the Puerto Rican neighborhood of the city and it happened to be lakefront property as well and it was more valuable monetarily to people [00:24:00] in power at that time, whether it was corporate or government. And so they were coming in and telling people, “It’s time to move.” JJ: They were telling people to move? MJ: They were raising people’s rents from 80 dollars to 400 in a month or 120 dollars to 800 dollars the next month. Well, you can’t pay? You gotta go. This is how I 14 �was told. As I was told, there were times as well that people were being manhandled directly out of their homes. Someone would just come in and kick all of their things out onto the ground and say, “You don’t live here anymore. Go. You guys can move over.” JJ: [The share?], basically, [’cause it was the candles?] (inaudible). MJ: But that’s gotta be quite an experience to know you’re doing everything you can to pay your bills and you’re paying them and you come home from work one day and someone just told you, “You moved today, in case you didn’t know.” [00:25:00] And you can’t do anything about it. There’s nobody to go to. JJ: But even while you were growing up, you’re saying the neighborhood was still changing, no? MJ: When I was growing up? JJ: Yeah. Or you didn’t notice? I mean, you weren’t living there anymore, but I mean, you went back there ’cause the neighborhood is completely changed, right? MJ: It has completely changed. They kept the shape of it, but they changed everything in between. I guess when I was growing up, it did change. It was much more human before. You could just walk down the street and know somebody and everybody was happy to just wave and say hello, and now it’s just a tourist spot and the people who live there are not very welcoming. (laughs) But mostly it’s a tourist area. And [00:26:00] no, before it was, like, going to visit your cousin’s house. JJ: So do you remember before? 15 �MJ: Yeah. JJ: Okay. MJ: You knew everybody on the block and you just got off the bus or came off the train, and walking to the person’s house you’re going to, you see five different people you know. You stop and you have a conversation, like a neighborhood. Like home. And you don’t know anybody there now. They don’t do that with each other. JJ: Okay. So that made you feel proud in everything. You had some proud moments. What about some painful moments when they talked about the Young Lords? With you, since your father was involved in it. Did you ever have any painful moments? MJ: Painful moments, I think that we all did. JJ: Did anybody talk [00:27:00] negative about the Young Lords? MJ: Sure. I mean, I have bumped into people and I tend not to introduce myself first if I’m in an area where people still talk about the Young Lords, not because I’m not proud, because I’d rather get an honest reaction to what they think. I am always absorbing information and I love to get a lot of different perspectives and I don’t take it personal because that was their experience, so I wanna hear it. JJ: What are some of the negative things that you heard? MJ: (laughs) I remember walking into a building once and I was with someone who could not wait to introduce me and I was like, “Shh. Just say hello. Give this person a chance to get up in their chair.” And this person was very polite and shook my hand and I said, “I’m Melisa,” and he told me his name. And the 16 �person I was with said, “Oh, do you remember that guy? You know the Young Lords. Do you remember that guy, Cha-Cha?” “Oh my God, that thug. He used to --” [00:28:00] I mean, I was laughing ’cause he’s sitting there, he’s like, “He used to just make so much trouble around here. He was such a headache and I can’t believe --” And I guess the person I was with gave him a look because all the sudden, he stopped talking and he looked at me, and then I was introduced as Cha-Cha’s daughter and he just went completely pale and he was like, “I’m so sorry.” I said, “Why would you be? Maybe he was mean to you. (laughs) Maybe you guys didn’t like each other. That’s your experience and I’m not taking anything away from that.” And he was like, “No, but I’m so sorry,” and I said, “That was your experience. That’s your history. But I happen to like the guy so I’m okay with it. So don’t worry about it.” And he just couldn’t catch his breath for a long time. I felt bad. But I don’t introduce myself first, and it’s not to set anybody up. I just wanna know what they really think, what their real memories were. I wasn’t older at that time period, so I like to know what people went through. JJ: Actually there’s a similar experience that my mother [00:29:00] had with somebody from the church. So you know, that’s kind of a pretty good -- because it was like 50-50 real controversial. MJ: It wasn’t controversial. I’ve bumped into people that just said, like, I was royalty, like you were royalty, and “Oh my God, you’re his daughter.” And that experience is much more common than the other. But, like, I didn’t do anything. You know, I’m glad that you had a positive experience. And they’re like, “No, no, this was so 17 �important. He did this and he did this.” I’ve had people treat me wonderfully because of how much it meant to them and I’ve had people be very nasty because they don’t agree with the politics and I personally -JJ: I know you’re joking but it must hurt. MJ: No, it doesn’t hurt because I like to see how people think. I like to see through other people’s eyes. JJ: That’s now, but when you were growing up. MJ: No. JJ: [00:30:00] Never? MJ: Because I was a child and there was more of a filter on them. I was prepared for it, but they had more of a filter because they were looking at a child, and I mean, you shouldn’t attack a child. But when they were honest about what they said, I appreciated it. I want to know all of the story. I don’t wanna know just the things I like or I agree with. And I need to understand. That’s how I’ve learned about it, by being open about it and not expecting someone to agree with something that I think. That’s not gonna work. JJ: I’m gonna kind of wrap it up a little bit, but I just wanted to -- MJ: Am I a talker? (laughs) JJ: No, no, no. No, I was just trying to -- MJ: I am, it’s all right. JJ: -- just because of the schedule. MJ: Okay. No, I have had painful moments, though. JJ: You had painful moments? 18 �MJ: I didn’t lose my father like Angie’s kids did or like Fred Hampton [00:31:00] Junior did, but I still lost my father, having a father in my home. My brothers and sisters still lost having a father while they were growing up. And we’ve had the opportunity to still get to know you, which they didn’t, but we still lost the possession of, “That’s my dad. He just belongs to me and everybody else doesn’t get a piece of him. He’s just ours.” We didn’t get that opportunity. And maybe that had something to do with it. When my mother and I left when I was four and a half during the height of your substance abuse, very shortly after, you disappeared. [00:32:00] You were just gone and nobody knew where you were and I think some people even blamed my mom. Like, if you hadn’t left him, he wouldn’t have just disappeared, you know? What did you do? Nobody can find him. No one even knows where he is. And that went on for a little while, and then a couple years passed and then -- JJ: So that went on for a few years. MJ: It went on for a little while. JJ: Like, five years, something like that. MJ: A little while. A couple years later, people started trying to prepare themselves that you just were never coming back, and so they started saying, you know, “I don’t wanna say the thing that you’re not supposed to say, but I think he’s dead.” And they would try not to say it around me but I heard them talking about it and I knew it wasn’t true. And more time passed. Then it finally got to being five years, you were gone and nobody knew where you were. Everybody [00:33:00] had accepted that you were just dead. 19 �JJ: You’re talking about family members? MJ: Family members were at the point -- five years after my mother and I left, five years almost to the day, everybody for at least the last six months had been trying to figure out how do we tell Melisa that her father is dead? Because she walks around here like -- she’s just so happy and she’s gonna talk to him one day, and we have to figure out how to tell her. And they were whispering about it over and over and I know that I went up to them one day. I was nine years old at the time. And I put my hand on Angie’s hand and I put my other hand on my mom’s hand and I said, “Don’t worry, he’s not dead. I know he’s not dead. You guys don’t have to worry about how to talk to me about it.” And they just couldn’t believe that I even knew what they were talking about, but I seriously said, “I can [00:34:00] feel him. I know he’s okay. He’s just not ready to be with us right now. But don’t worry.” And Angie seriously was like -- they never talked about it again, and within a month -- I’m gonna tell you -- that particular month I prayed for two things, and never in my life, I have never prayed to ask for something back. I pray to thank God for things. I don’t pray to ask for things in return. But that month, I prayed for two things, and one of them was just for my dad to let everybody know he was okay. Even if he’s not ready to come back, can you just please -- they’re starting to really worry. Can you just let him know or have him let everybody know that he’s okay? And then I prayed for something else. And that particular month, not even a week later, my mom got a call from Angie and said, “You will not believe. He’s alive. He’s gonna be here on Friday. He wanted to know if you would bring Melisa because he really wants to see her.” 20 �[00:35:00] And they just couldn’t believe. And I told my mom, I said, “I’m not supposed to tell you what I talked to God about because that’s between us, but I knew he was going to --” And maybe that sounds mystical and spooky or whatever, but those are the only two things in my life that I ever asked for, and that month, they both came true. Not that I’m saying I had any effect on that, but I’m saying the timeframe, when I was four and a half and we left you, soon after, you left, and the whole family went through an experience where they grieved your loss. They really believed you were gone. Everybody was certain of it because by that point, five years had passed. They tried for years to just deal with the fact that you were probably underground or something or maybe just doing drugs and not in a good place. And they finally got to the point where they accepted that you were gone and they really went through a hard time trying to figure out how to tell your kids that we would never see you again. But [00:36:00] your mother -- my grandmother -- and I knew that you were alive because we both could feel you and we talked about it. Everybody else was really broken, trying to figure out how to help us deal with it ’cause they thought we were in denial. And lo and behold, you showed up in Chicago (laughs) within the same month and you were okay and you had changed your life in a big way and you were in a good place. And everybody was just shocked. They really thought you were gone. And that was not an easy time. It was sad. But I knew that you were okay. I just knew that I didn’t know when I would ever talk to you again. I didn’t know. At that time, I had no picture of your face in my mind. I just remembered loving you and you loving me. But I could not remember your face. And then 21 �everybody around me is so sad, thinking you’re gone. That was hard to watch everybody I loved so sad. JJ: So do you remember where -- MJ: [00:37:00] I don’t remember when you left the city but I know that you moved to Michigan. By the time you came back, you were living in Michigan and you came back just to see us. JJ: Right. I was trying to get myself together. MJ: You did. You did a very good job. JJ: I was going a little downhill by that time and I didn’t have the [will?] or money or anything like that (inaudible). And my perfectionism, I had to make sure everything’s perfect. MJ: You are, and I missed a lot of times spending time with you because you were afraid you didn’t have anything to give me and I didn’t want anything but you. And that took a few years for you to accept that. JJ: I keep that in mind now. MJ: All right, good. (laughter) That’s good. You don’t need to give me anything. No. But we missed more time later. JJ: What did you want? What did you want to tell your father? What was the most important thing that you wanted people to know? Not just [00:38:00] your father. Maybe the world or -- about you. MJ: About me? That’s a loaded question. You have layers to that. 22 �JJ: Okay, (inaudible). I mean, what’s the main thing that you want people to know about you? This is an oral history (inaudible) but I [shouldn’t be so formal?] after what you just said. MJ: (laughter) No. I don’t know that there’s anything I need the world to know about me. JJ: Or me, maybe I don’t -- ’cause I was underground. I’m just trying to go with [that?]. MJ: I think people don’t know that you are hilarious unless they know you. They don’t know that you’re hilarious. You have an incredible sense of humor and you are always cracking jokes at moments that everybody thinks you’re gonna be serious, just come out of nowhere and everybody’s cracking up because it’s a surprise. JJ: But I was talking about you. MJ: [00:39:00] I know. JJ: Okay. MJ: I’m just saying I don’t think anybody knows -- and I’m not sure if you’re ready for anybody to know -- that you’re very sensitive. JJ: What do you mean? MJ: (laughs) You’re very sensitive. You’re very loving. You love your children very much. You may not always know how to share that with them or they don’t know how to receive it from you, but I don’t think there’s a way to measure how much we mean to you, and it’s obvious. It’s just there’s other things that go with it, other emotions that go with it. But you are very sensitive and things hit you. 23 �People are a little rough with you. People are used to you being hardcore and determined and focused, and you’re human. You’re very caring. About me? I don’t really think that -- [00:40:00] maybe we have not discussed fully, you know, all of my opinions. We don’t need to have all my opinions. But all the things we have talked about, I’m very passionate about. They mean a lot to me. They’re the majority of the rest of what makes up me. You know, my mother and father and the rest of my family are the core of me and all of the things we talked about are very much the rest of me. They mean a lot to me. It seems real basic and yet it’s lost on our culture now to treat people with care and respect and look out for each other, not to cover for each other when you’re doing something you shouldn’t be doing. Look out that you are all doing well, that you are healthy, that your needs are met, that you’re not alone in this world, that we’re each other’s, you know, keeper. It’s real simple. It’s in all the religions. [00:41:00] It’s not one religious belief. It’s how you treat each other, and I don’t think that any of these issues would be real if we had that, if that was happening, if people were treating each other equally or respectfully. There may never have been a Civil Rights Movement. What would we talk about? I don’t know. JJ: So you feel like the Young Lords were like a civil rights movement. MJ: Yeah. JJ: ’Cause some people don’t look at -- I mean, like when we were talking about, they still think it’s a gang or whatever. MJ: You’re taking care of basic needs. JJ: To you, why do you look at it like a civil rights movement or a movement? 24 �MJ: What I know of what they actually accomplished, what they were involved in, what people were participating in, it’s taking care of basic needs in an entire community that should have been leveled. Everybody [00:42:00] everywhere should have these basic things. You should be able to have clean water and food to eat and healthcare and education and immunizations, and civil rights is the basic line of saying we all have these basic human rights and they’re fair for everybody, and if somebody slips, we just have to remind them, “No, no, no, you might have crossed the line with somebody. Come back. This is where your mistake was made.” But it’s for everybody. They’re real simple. It’s not complicated. It’s not like trigonometry or something. It’s real basic human needs and rights and respect, and when people slip up, they get so lost in their personal greed and hunger for power, they are willing to destroy anything in their path, and sometimes it’s entire cultures. And [00:43:00] that’s not acceptable. Everybody should be enraged by that or at least passionate enough to say something. It should matter. It’s real simple. I don’t know how else to -- JJ: That’s good. I know that your father was attacking Mayor Daley a lot because of the displacement of the Puerto Rican community and he was Irish and you have a little Irish -- MJ: I’m half-Irish, yes. JJ: You’re half-Irish. How did you feel about that? You know, we’re attacking -- MJ: I don’t take it as a cultural attack. I take it as two men who have very clear opinions and they do not agree with each other. (laughter) Point blank. And 25 �they’re in different positions and they both speak until they’re heard. Both of them. So there’s different repercussions to that, though. JJ: And it’s never about the Irish. It’s about -- MJ: [00:44:00] No, I never -- JJ: -- the policy. MJ: I don’t think that has anything to do with that, no. JJ: Because I’m just joking. It’s about the wrong policies of the mayor. I never had an attack personally on him. But it’s an attack on his policies, basically. We just felt they were corrupt and incorrect and we didn’t agree with that. Any final thoughts? Any final thoughts? MJ: Educate yourselves. (laughs) Don’t take somebody’s word for it because you’ve known them for a long time or because they’re someplace in the world that you wish you could be. Educate yourself. You know, if you hear something that’s different from anything you’ve ever heard before, look around. Get different perspectives. Don’t just open a textbook because they all come from the same publishing company. Read different sources. Talk to different people and be open to different perceptions. Everybody has a different place they’re standing from. They [00:45:00] get a different view of what’s happening even in the same moment. So learn. Just learn. That’s real important. Otherwise you’re gonna let somebody else decide your destiny. JJ: Thank you. END OF VIDEO FILE 26 �27 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1cd08aeb94045f6ef044cfd8712af775.mp4 bff0c6395edef45230efab1f9ce9e558 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Melisa Jiménez vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 1 Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Jimenez_Melisa_1 Title A name given to the resource Melisa Jiménez video interview and transcript, interview 1 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, Melisa Description An account of the resource Melisa Jiménez is the youngest daughter of Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. Like his other children she was not able to grow up with Mr. Jiménez. But she has always maintained a close relationship with him, even though they live miles away from each other. Ms. Jiménez’s other siblings are Jackie, Jodie, Sonia, and Alex. Ms. Jiménez lives not far from Mrs. Iberia Hampton, Fred Hampton’s mother, and they have maintained a close personal relationship for many years. Ms. Jiménez was born in the Lincoln Park neighborhood hospital, via the use of the La Maze childbirth method. Her father reminds her that he was the first to hold her. Ms. Jiménez lived in Lincoln Park for the first years of her life until the rent became unbearable for her mother. Only a couple of months after she was born, her father was incarcerated for a year, awaiting trial because his bond was too far out of range for his income. He later explained to her that he was doing, “volunteer work, supporting the Puerto Rican Freedom fighters.” When Mr. Jiménez won the case, Ms. Jiménez was living in Logan Square and they were once again united. This time Jackie, the oldest of Mr. Jiménez’s daughters from another relationship, moved in with them briefly. Teenage Jackie had a young boyfriend who was extremely polite, but very persistent. So Jackie’s mother, frustrated, dropped her off for Mr. Jiménez “to take responsibility and to take care of her.” He gladly agreed. And It was a way for Melisa and Jackie to get to know each other. Each sibling plays a role and Ms. Jiménez has played the role of sibling unifier in a world of divorce and separations. She graduated from Oak Park River Forest High School in 1998 and attended some college. She loves photography and is an accomplished artist. Some of her jobs have included child care, marketing research and mortgage broker sales. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-15 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b79328206530ed61af8bd8099fbabd9d.pdf 24611a3bf384fddb08ba23281efcd23d PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Marcelo Jiménez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/12/2012 Biography and Description Marcelo Jiménez, or “Chelo,” is one of the younger sons of Cristina (Tino) and Gregorio Jiménez. Mr. Jiménez grew up in San Salvador, Caguas, Puerto Rico and did work in that mountain barrio like the others, laboring on different farms or helping to construct neighbors’ homes, and migrating back and forth to the United States to work in fields, factories, and hotels. Mr. Jiménez also worked in a foundry on Armitage Avenue by the Chicago River branch in Lincoln Park for many years. Back in Puerto Rico he continued to help his father plow or turn the soil on the farm, using two bulls and a small plow. He also hung tobacco to dry in the tall rancho that they made from the bamboo that grew next to the creek. The creek served as the boundary of the farm in the 1940s through the 1980s when some of the plots were sold by some of the family. Mr. Jiménez would load the produce in his truck, or a cow when money was needed, and head to La Plaza Mercado in Caguas, near La Salida, or exit, to Aguas Buenas. When José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez lived in Puerto Rico in 1963-64, he became Mr. Jiménez’s assistant in his cow feed distribution business. Each morning they would fill up Mr. Jiménez truck with 100 lbs. bags of cow feed. They would then drink their coffee with cow’s milk from the can, a few soda crackers and butter and Tino and Don Goyo would wave them on. The two of them would leave in darkness and travel to nearly every town on the Island, delivering and selling the bags of feed, and would not return until late. When business was slow Mr. Jiménez and Cha-Cha would hang out with the Titeres de La Plaza, or the �Huckleberry Finns clique, of San Salvador, sometimes even barefoot. The youth clique is centuries old. No one is excluded. It is like a life passage that exists today in a varied fashion. There was rarely any harm done. Everyone knew them, and then there was no police to bother them. But back In Chicago Mr. Jiménez would sometimes hang out with his cousins of the Hacha Viejas. Most of the time they did the same thing but in a rougher manner. In Chicago the neighborhood was unstable and transient. There was prejudice and hunger (poverty). The culture in Chicago was “everyone for themselves,” as Mr. Jiménez recalls. And then there was police intimidation and many times unnecessary arrests that served to served as bragging points and hardened the group. For Mr. Jiménez, he was lucky to join with other groups for support, like the Caballeros de San Juan. And most of the time he just worked long hours and enjoyed his children and family. His relatives were also part of the Caballeros and Damas de María. He became one of the first immigrants to Chicago during what some called the Great Migration of Puerto Ricans, between 1950 and 1960. This was the era when Puerto Ricans were going back and forth from Puerto Rico to Chicago. Mr. Jiménez built a mansion in San Salvador and today lives content in the town of Caguas. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ce63e47b2950c0dd9d380a41a9d3ed46.mp4 fc32d0fbb486c60edce5f0d3faab69e9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Marcelo Jiménez vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Jimenez_Marcelo Title A name given to the resource Marcelo Jiménez video interview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, Marcelo Description An account of the resource Marcelo Jiménez, or “Chelo,” is one of the younger sons of Cristina (Tino) and Gregorio Jiménez. Mr. Jiménez grew up in San Salvador, Caguas, Puerto Rico and did work in that mountain barrio like the others, laboring on different farms or helping to construct neighbors’ homes, and migrating back and forth to the United States to work in fields, factories, and hotels. Mr. Jiménez also worked in a foundry on Armitage Avenue by the Chicago River branch in Lincoln Park for many years. Back in Puerto Rico he continued to help his father plow or turn the soil on the farm, using two bulls and a small plow. He also hung tobacco to dry in the tall rancho that they made from the bamboo that grew next to the creek. The creek served as the boundary of the farm in the 1940s through the 1980s when some of the plots were sold by some of the family. Mr. Jiménez would load the produce in his truck, or a cow when money was needed, and head to La Plaza Mercado in Caguas, near La Salida, or exit, to Aguas Buenas. When José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez lived in Puerto Rico in 1963-64, he became Mr. Jiménez’s assistant in his cow feed distribution business. Each morning they would fill up Mr. Jiménez truck with 100 lbs. bags of cow feed. They would then drink their coffee with cow’s milk from the can, a few soda crackers and butter and Tino and Don Goyo would wave them on. The two of them would leave in darkness and travel to nearly every town on the Island, delivering and selling the bags of feed, and would not return until late. When business was slow Mr. Jiménez and Cha-Cha would hang out with the Titeres de La Plaza, or the Huckleberry Finns clique, of San Salvador, sometimes even barefoot. The youth clique is centuries old. No one is excluded. It is like a life passage that exists today in a varied fashion. There was rarely any harm done. Everyone knew them, and then there was no police to bother them. But back In Chicago Mr. Jiménez would sometimes hang out with his cousins of the Hacha Viejas. Most of the time they did the same thing but in a rougher manner. In Chicago the neighborhood was unstable and transient. There was prejudice and hunger (poverty). The culture in Chicago was “everyone for themselves,” as Mr. Jiménez recalls. And then there was police intimidation and many times unnecessary arrests that served to served as bragging points and hardened the group. For Mr. Jiménez, he was lucky to join with other groups for support, like the Caballeros de San Juan. And most of the time he just worked long hours and enjoyed his children and family. His relatives were also part of the Caballeros and Damas de María. He became one of the first immigrants to Chicago during what some called the Great Migration of Puerto Ricans, between 1950 and 1960. This was the era when Puerto Ricans were going back and forth from Puerto Rico to Chicago. Mr. Jiménez built a mansion in San Salvador and today lives content in the town of Caguas. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-12 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/638df8240d99be75a44efabfbef4a625.pdf e69277df19f11218272a11319045a496 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Juana “Jenny” Jiménez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/10/2012 Biography and Description English Juana “Jenny” Jiménez is one of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez’s sisters. She was born while her father, Antonio, worked as a seasonal farm laborer, or tomatero, in the late 1940s for Andy Boy Farms at a migrant camp in Minot, Massachusetts near Concord. They picked vegetables primarily for the Campbell Soup Company. In 1951 the family moved to Chicago to be closer to other relatives who had been living in La Clark since the late 1940s. Jenny grew up in Lincoln Park and in Wicker Park. When she became pregnant, but was unmarried, she was placed temporarily in a juvenile home for girls run by Catholic nuns. It is there that Jenny developed her spirituality and she remains very active in her community to this day, including working on behalf of her husband’s baseball and bowling leagues and running a Boy Scout troop to support her own and other neighborhood children in Puerto Rico. She now lives in Camuy, Puerto Rico. Spanish Juana Jiménez es una hermana de José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. Nació en Minot, Massachusetts cerca de Concord donde su padre trabajo como tomatero para Andy Boy Farms en 1940. Aquí recogieron vegetables para la compañía de Campbell Soup. En 1951 la familia se cambio a Chicago para acercarse �con familiares que vivían en La Clark. Juana creció en Lincoln Park Wicker Park. Cuando se embarazo, antes de tener esposo, la mandaron a una casa para mujeres jóvenes que era atendida por monjas Católicas. Aquí es donde ella desarrollo su espirituelidad y todavía sigue muy dedicada en su comunida igual que ayudando los equipos de Béisbol y boliche en que esta su esposo y corriendo el grupo de Boy Scout para sus hijos y los del vecindario. Ahora vive en Camuy, Puerto Rico. �Transcript JUANA JIMENEZ: I didn’t like that name, Cha-Cha. (laughs) JOSE JIMENEZ: Oh, you don’t like Cha-Cha. All right, all right. No, that’s good. It was a good answer. Okay, (inaudible), ready? If you could tell me your name, your full name, and where you were born. JUANA JIMENEZ: Okay. My name is Juana Jiménez, and as my mom used to say, I was born in Boston in Massachusetts, but I wasn’t. I was born in Concord, Massachusetts. JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay. Does it say that on your birth certificate? JUANA JIMENEZ: It says that on my birth certificate. Says Concord, Massachusetts. JOSE JIMENEZ: ’Cause he also said that it was Minot, there was a place called Minot. But your birth certificate says Concord. JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, my birth certificate says Concord, Massachusetts. JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, and did she say anything else? Where you were born, what was it like or whatever? Or anything? JUANA JIMENEZ: No, she just said -- well, [00:01:00] they lived in like a farm place or something. JOSE JIMENEZ: Like a migrant farm? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah. They went down from Puerto Rico to Massachusetts so they could work, and they could at least have some money, and have a better life than what they did have when they were living here. At that time, of course, here 1 �there was no roads, everything dust roads and things like that. So it was really pretty hard for them. JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay. So they were working like a migrant farm camp? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah. JOSE JIMENEZ: And then you were born in the town of Concord? JUANA JIMENEZ: I was born. She said from that town, I guess the owner of the farm or something, they took her to the hospital, and then -- they took her over there, and they kept thinking that the owner of the farm was [00:02:00] the father. Instead of my dad being my father, it would be the boss’s. But that’s because he paid for everything, but it wasn’t true. They fixed that right away. JOSE JIMENEZ: He paid for the insurance? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, he paid for everything. JOSE JIMENEZ: Did they say who the owner of the farm was? JUANA JIMENEZ: I really can’t remember the name. [Dowdry?], or -JOSE JIMENEZ: Oh, [Dowry?]. JUANA JIMENEZ: Dowry, something like that. That’s what she says. JOSE JIMENEZ: Oh, yeah. I’ve heard that name before. JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah. Well, something like that. So I really don’t know. I always tell everybody the only thing I remember from Massachusetts is the blanket. I was underneath it, (laughs) and then we went down to Chicago because I don’t remember anything. I don’t know, I was just a baby. JOSE JIMENEZ: So you were born -- what year was that, again? JUANA JIMENEZ: Nineteen fifty-one. 2 �JOSE JIMENEZ: So 1951 she was in Concord, Massachusetts. JUANA JIMENEZ: In Concord, Massachusetts. JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, so after that, then they moved to Chicago? JUANA JIMENEZ: After that, they moved to Chicago, [00:03:00] and -JOSE JIMENEZ: So around ’51 or ’52? JUANA JIMENEZ: No, I think it was really in the same year. Yeah, ’51. JOSE JIMENEZ: Fifty-one? Okay, so they moved to Chicago. Do you know where they moved to? JUANA JIMENEZ: The only place that I remember -- oh, my God. I don’t remember much about names of streets or something, but I know it was a really slum area. And I remember to get into the apartment -- it was a big building -- to get into the apartment, you had to go through the alley and the door was on the side of the alley. It was a bad -JOSE JIMENEZ: Oh, that was on Dayton. That was on Dayton -- JUANA JIMENEZ: Way in back. JOSE JIMENEZ: Dayton by North Avenue. JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, and I really didn’t like that place. JOSE JIMENEZ: So the entrance was in the alley, I remember that. JUANA JIMENEZ: It was in the alley. JOSE JIMENEZ: It was behind the businesses. JUANA JIMENEZ: Yes, right. JOSE JIMENEZ: The North Avenue businesses. JUANA JIMENEZ: That’s right. 3 �JOSE JIMENEZ: So there was North Avenue businesses between Halsted and Dayton, and right behind there was an alley, and there was a building there. JUANA JIMENEZ: That’s right, yeah. [00:04:00] And I hated that place. JOSE JIMENEZ: ’Cause there was a cat called kitty that we had or something. JUANA JIMENEZ: No, no. JOSE JIMENEZ: There wasn’t? JUANA JIMENEZ: That was in a different area. JOSE JIMENEZ: Oh, that was a different -- JUANA JIMENEZ: That was way back later on. But when we were a lot smaller, we lived in that area, and I didn’t like it because they had a lot of roaches, a lot of -JOSE JIMENEZ: Oh, so this is still on Clark Street that you’re talking about? It’s not North Avenue, then? JUANA JIMENEZ: No, it must not be. I just don’t know the name of the streets or anything. JOSE JIMENEZ: Oh, you remember Maple. That was another alley. There was another alley. JUANA JIMENEZ: It was this little small alley I remember, and the other side was busy streets. JOSE JIMENEZ: That was La Salle. La Salle and Maple. JUANA JIMENEZ: You could see drunk people all the time in the streets. JOSE JIMENEZ: Clark Street. That was Clark Street. JUANA JIMENEZ: That was horrible. I hated it. I hated it. JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, that was La Salle and Maple. Yeah, I remember that. Okay. 4 �JUANA JIMENEZ: ’Cause I remember that when -JOSE JIMENEZ: So what do you remember about there? JUANA JIMENEZ: The only thing I remember, we never had anything. At least we had food, but not much of anything. [00:05:00] We had to get our clothes was from the secondhand store all the time or from people that gave us clothes. For Christmas, we never had anything. I remember one time really special from school, the police officers, they went around to see the poor families. We were very, very poor. And they came around to our house, and they took you to go to their party and their Christmas party where Santa Claus was and everything, and I stayed home crying because they didn’t pick me to go. But later on, they came back about an hour later on, and they got my shoes, my clothes, and they finished dressing me in their car so I could go with them. And the first thing I saw when I went down there was Santa Claus, the kids running around everywhere, and the table filled with food. And when we got home, you had a great big sack of clothes [00:06:00] and toys, and I had the same. And that was one of the good times, at least I thought. JOSE JIMENEZ: I think that was Catholic Charities. JUANA JIMENEZ: Maybe, I don’t know. I really don’t know. JOSE JIMENEZ: Yeah, they were located by Superior and La Salle at that time. JUANA JIMENEZ: We had another time -- we had another -JOSE JIMENEZ: But we weren’t living there at that time. We were living -- JUANA JIMENEZ: ’Cause there was another time that we had a good time for the Catholic Charities that they did help us. And we were living -- 5 �JOSE JIMENEZ: It was at St. Teresa’s, I think? From St. Teresa’s (inaudible). JUANA JIMENEZ: I don’t know, but I know that -- this was in a different place, where we lived, and they came to the house and brought us a big Christmas tree and big presents. JOSE JIMENEZ: Oh, yeah, that was a different time. JUANA JIMENEZ: Different time. JOSE JIMENEZ: Yeah, but the first one was Catholic Charities. JUANA JIMENEZ: The first time I was really, really young I remember. But that place that I hated was because of all the rats and the roaches everywhere. [00:07:00] You could see the walls moving. JOSE JIMENEZ: So that was on Maple and La Salle with the rats and the roaches. JUANA JIMENEZ: Okay. I really don’t know, but -JOSE JIMENEZ: It was a basement. It was a basement apartment. JUANA JIMENEZ: It was a basement. JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay. Actually, there’s a picture of that on Facebook. JUANA JIMENEZ: Is it? JOSE JIMENEZ: I got to show it to you. JUANA JIMENEZ: I hated that place. I hated that place. JOSE JIMENEZ: So you remember that, that place there. That was at La Salle and Maple. Where did you go to school? JUANA JIMENEZ: At that time, we were going to St. Teresa. We were going to a Catholic school, I believe. Or how was that? I’m not sure that we went first to a public school and then we went to a Catholic school, but -- no, we did go to a 6 �public school first because [00:08:00] I remember going to kindergarten and not wanting to go to school, starting to scream because I wanted to go back home. I remember that one. That was in a (inaudible). JOSE JIMENEZ: Was it Newberry? Do you remember that school? JUANA JIMENEZ: I don’t remember them. JOSE JIMENEZ: Franklin? JUANA JIMENEZ: I don’t know the names of the -- I don’t know. JOSE JIMENEZ: None of the schools you know the name of. You remember St. Teresa. JUANA JIMENEZ: Yes, I remember St. Teresa. And I think it was after that that we did go to St. Teresa’s. And I remember mom working, making pasteles. JOSE JIMENEZ: I think before that we went to Newberry, (inaudible). JUANA JIMENEZ: Just to pay for the tuition. JOSE JIMENEZ: Or at least I was going to Newberry before I went to St. Teresa’s. JUANA JIMENEZ: Okay, could be. JOSE JIMENEZ: [Probably?] you were going somewhere else. JUANA JIMENEZ: But I remember going to that school, and it was nice, but -- but we did go to St. Teresa. But it wasn’t at that time. JOSE JIMENEZ: So what are your first memories of Chicago growing up? JUANA JIMENEZ: Being a girl, [00:09:00] growing up, you only saw the inside of the house because it came with Puerto Rican -JOSE JIMENEZ: Culture. JUANA JIMENEZ: -- cultures and everything. My mom and dad -- 7 �JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, so what kind of cultures? JUANA JIMENEZ: Well, the women would stay in the house, clean, cook, do whatever they had to do. They wouldn’t go out for anything. The husbands or the men could do whatever they wanted. All the food had to be done for them, clothes had to be fixed, everything had to be ready for them. JOSE JIMENEZ: And mom was comfortable with that? JUANA JIMENEZ: She taught us that’s the way we had to do it. JOSE JIMENEZ: She told you that’s the way you had to do it? JUANA JIMENEZ: That’s the way you had to do it. JOSE JIMENEZ: And you had to behave yourself and -- I mean she actually said that? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah. She told us, “When your father comes, the food has to be done, [00:10:00] the house has to be clean, you can’t let them fight,” and stuff like that. The men can go out drinking, and having fun, and whatever and the women had to stay in the house. Of course, she didn’t like that much either because dad would go out drinking and come back really drunk and half the time beat her up because of that. The first apartment -- you said it was Mayberry? By Clark? JOSE JIMENEZ: Maple. JUANA JIMENEZ: Maple, okay. Maple and Clark. JOSE JIMENEZ: La Salle. Maple and La Salle. JUANA JIMENEZ: I remember -- ’cause [Myrna?] was a baby -- my sister, Myrna. She was -- 8 �JOSE JIMENEZ: She was born right there in (inaudible) Hospital, right? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, she was a baby ’cause there were only two bedrooms in that apartment. There was two bedrooms, living room, and kitchen. JOSE JIMENEZ: It was a basement and the entrance was on Maple, on the small street. JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah. And then I remember my dad going out, and I decided I wanted to sleep out -- I didn’t want sleep with -- I had to sleep -- on one bed, I had to sleep [00:11:00] me, Daisy, and you. All three of us had to sleep there in one bed because there was nowhere else to sleep. And that day, I said, “I’m not sleeping in this bed anymore. I’m tired of being in this room.” So in the living room, there was a little crib, and I asked my mom, “Can I sleep on this crib tonight?” She said, “Fine,” because my sister slept with them. So in the middle of the night, all I did was open my eyes, and all you could see were these roaches, and these rats, and everything, but then they’d run. My dad came in drunk, and I could see him throwing baby food jars, throwing them because he was so drunk he didn’t know what he was doing. He started fighting with my mom, throwing food everywhere on the walls. There was baby food everywhere, everywhere you could see. JOSE JIMENEZ: What was he drunk about? What was he mad about? JUANA JIMENEZ: I don’t know. He was always mad at something. Always mad at something. And he wanted to fight with her. [00:12:00] So I really wouldn’t know. I really couldn’t tell you what they were fighting about. She wasn’t doing 9 �the fighting, he was doing the fighting. She was just running around so that he wouldn’t hurt her. JOSE JIMENEZ: What would happen the next day? JUANA JIMENEZ: The next day he’d either wake up by the bathroom floor throwing up, or half on the floor in the bedroom, or on the bed or whatever. And he would act like nothing, and she would have to get him his coffee, and make him some soup, or get him something cool to drink like 7UP or something because he wasn’t feeling well. But then the next day it was like nothing. He was an alcoholic and he didn’t realize that. And he always had to drink. All weekend he had to keep drinking. The whole weekend. JOSE JIMENEZ: That’s his negative side. What about his positive side? JUANA JIMENEZ: His positive side, he was a great dad. JOSE JIMENEZ: What do you mean? JUANA JIMENEZ: At least with me. [00:13:00] He could talk to me. I would sit on his lap, rub his face, would talk to him -- “Why are you so upset?” “I’m not upset. Go over there.” He’d tell me to get off his lap or go somewhere else. (laughs) But, you know, then he would smile and laugh a lot, make jokes. I liked the way when he would -- he loved movies from cowboys especially. And he would take the chairs, the back ends of the chairs, and turn it around, and sit with his legs spread apart. And since he had a big fat belly, the chairs instead of being straight up, it already had the form of the belly coming to the side. You could see him just kind of fighting, “Come on, you can do it.” And then when they started saying on the TV that that was too much violence, and they were taking all these 10 �movies out because of the violence and stuff, he was so mad. [00:14:00] He didn’t want to watch anymore cowboy and Indian movies (laughs) anymore because he said it was really wasn’t (inaudible). JOSE JIMENEZ: Didn’t he also watch The Honeymooners or something like that? JUANA JIMENEZ: He was what? JOSE JIMENEZ: You remember that show The Honeymooners? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yes, I remember. The Jackie Gleason show. JOSE JIMENEZ: And he reminded me of Jackie Gleason. JUANA JIMENEZ: Yes, he did. JOSE JIMENEZ: (inaudible). JUANA JIMENEZ: That’s how it was. JOSE JIMENEZ: And that was one of his favorite shows. JUANA JIMENEZ: Yes. Except the lady was -- Jackie Gleason’s wife -- my mom was more quiet because the one there on TV was a little mouthy. My mother wasn’t. JOSE JIMENEZ: But Antonio liked that. JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, he liked that. JOSE JIMENEZ: Your dad. JUANA JIMENEZ: He liked that. Yeah, he did. JOSE JIMENEZ: Except for the lady wasn’t like mom. Mom was more quiet, she was more Puerto Rican. JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, that’s it. JOSE JIMENEZ: Would you say Puerto Rican or that’s just the way she -- not really Puerto Rican, but -- were all Puerto Ricans like that or no? 11 �JUANA JIMENEZ: I really don’t know, but mom was because that’s the way she was raised. JOSE JIMENEZ: Were there many other women like that? Other women raised that way [00:15:00] or no? JUANA JIMENEZ: I really wouldn’t know. At least at that time -JOSE JIMENEZ: Why do you think mom was so quiet like that, accepting that? JUANA JIMENEZ: I think she was that way because she was raised and always -when she was younger, she went to a convent, and she learned a lot with the nuns. You have to be quiet, you can’t raise your voice, have to be cleaning all the time. That’s why we did a lot of cleaning on our hands and knees, cleaning and shining floors. But she said that’s the way the women had to be. And I kept thinking, “This can’t be life,” (laughs) you know? But we either behaved or we got punished kneeling in front of the altar. JOSE JIMENEZ: So she was very religious? JUANA JIMENEZ: She was very religious. JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, but before we go into very religious, she also threw a few punches. Do you remember, [00:16:00] right in that spot, there was a fight or something? Do you remember that? JUANA JIMENEZ: What street? JOSE JIMENEZ: On Maple and La Salle, there was a fight -- JUANA JIMENEZ: There was a fight? JOSE JIMENEZ: -- with mom, right? You don’t remember that? JUANA JIMENEZ: With mom and who else? 12 �JOSE JIMENEZ: Some lady or something like that. It was a street fight. All the neighbors were outside (laughs) watching the fight. JUANA JIMENEZ: I really don’t remember that. JOSE JIMENEZ: You don’t remember that? JUANA JIMENEZ: I really don’t. And I don’t know why -JOSE JIMENEZ: So you never remember mom ever being aggressive? JUANA JIMENEZ: No, no. JOSE JIMENEZ: Fighting back on anybody? JUANA JIMENEZ: No. JOSE JIMENEZ: You just only remember her in the church. JUANA JIMENEZ: In the church, in the house. JOSE JIMENEZ: Gambling? JUANA JIMENEZ: Oh, yes, she did. (laughs) I remember her playing a lotería, but it’s not the lottery like they play now ’cause there was the three small cards. JOSE JIMENEZ: So it was like bingo? JUANA JIMENEZ: It’s like bingo, but it wasn’t. Bingo uses those cards, and straight across and down to the side. These were like three small cards -- [00:17:00] of course, it was illegal. JOSE JIMENEZ: But this was Spanish bingo. JUANA JIMENEZ: Spanish bingo. JOSE JIMENEZ: So why is Spanish bingo illegal and not English bingo? 13 �JUANA JIMENEZ: All bingos were illegal if you went over the limit of the money. You weren’t playing for pennies here. You were playing -- you know, $5.00, $10.00, $50.00, things like this. JOSE JIMENEZ: So it was illegal because they charged too much money? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yes, it was gambling. It was gambling. JOSE JIMENEZ: So all bingo was illegal at that time. JUANA JIMENEZ: All bingo was illegal at that time. JOSE JIMENEZ: But did a lot of people play it? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yes. Hiding, yes. (laughs) JOSE JIMENEZ: So it was common. JUANA JIMENEZ: Yes, it was common especially in the Puerto Ricans ’cause I remember standing -- trying to go to sleep standing up by a wall, “Let me go to sleep, I’m tired. We want to go home.” And we wouldn’t go home until they played their bingos. And the kids had to be quiet -- “Go over there and sit down and watch TV or just be quiet. You can’t be over here because there’s money here.” Half the time it was more [00:18:00] or less more family playing it, but it was still illegal. So as soon as somebody would knock at the door, everybody would stop, I remember, and look out the window, see who it was or whatever. JOSE JIMENEZ: Now, we moved up towards Clark Street by Lincoln Park. Do you remember that place? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yes, I do ’cause there were some Italian people that were the landlords or something, wasn’t that? JOSE JIMENEZ: Oh, that wasn’t that. But that was in -- 14 �JUANA JIMENEZ: That was another place. JOSE JIMENEZ: That was on Fremont. The Italian people, (inaudible). I was thinking about right across the street from Lincoln Park on Clark Street. Right there on North Avenue and Clark. Do you remember that or no? JUANA JIMENEZ: What’s that? JOSE JIMENEZ: You remember Fremont Street, though, right? With the Italian gangs? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, I remember that. JOSE JIMENEZ: So what do you remember there? JUANA JIMENEZ: I remember my mom being very superstitious, and she kept saying [00:19:00] that there were ghosts or something that could hear people walking around, or people knocking at the doors, or things like this. And she kept saying that we had to be very quiet because the landlord lived downstairs and he didn’t want any noise or else they were going to throw us out, you know? I can remember a lot of things because we were always in the house, like I told you. We were never outside. We couldn’t go outside to the stairs. In the summertime, maybe, for a little bit with them out in the front, and then back in the house. JOSE JIMENEZ: With who? With mom? JUANA JIMENEZ: With mom, with my dad. JOSE JIMENEZ: So you would go outside? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah. I remember there mom made a lot of pasteles so she could take it to Lincoln Park area and sell it. They sold a lot of pasteles. 15 �JOSE JIMENEZ: Pasteles, like Puerto Rican tamales? JUANA JIMENEZ: They’re the Puerto Rican tamales, like they say. A lot better than tamales. A lot more work. So I don’t make ’em, I buy them. (laughter) [00:20:00] I’m too lazy for that. JOSE JIMENEZ: So they went to Lincoln Park and sold them? JUANA JIMENEZ: They went to Lincoln Park and sold them, and they were sold right away. Right away. JOSE JIMENEZ: Why? Were there a lot of Puerto Ricans (inaudible)? JUANA JIMENEZ: There were a lot of Puerto Ricans at that time. There was a hippie stage at that time, there were a lot -JOSE JIMENEZ: This was like ’68, ’70? Around there, ’67-’68? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, around there, I believe. Yeah ’cause I remember her saying, “Don’t go in that area. Stay over there.” Because, of course, they would take off their bras and burn them or something, and mom wouldn’t want me to hang around with that. Of course, I liked that. JOSE JIMENEZ: So there was Puerto Ricans and hippies in the Lincoln Park? JUANA JIMENEZ: In the Lincoln Park. JOSE JIMENEZ: That end of the park. JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah. JOSE JIMENEZ: Was there like softball games or something? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, they did have a lot of softball games because the Puerto Ricans had a lot of softball games. It was really nice. It was really good. JOSE JIMENEZ: And so mom would go to the softball games to sell. 16 �JUANA JIMENEZ: Just to sell pasteles. JOSE JIMENEZ: Were those softball games part of the church that mom was involved in? JUANA JIMENEZ: [00:21:00] I think they were, but she wasn’t involved with the softball team, that I don’t believe. JOSE JIMENEZ: She was just selling. JUANA JIMENEZ: She was just there to sell pasteles. JOSE JIMENEZ: The pasteles were money for her. JUANA JIMENEZ: Money for her for income ’cause the income was very -JOSE JIMENEZ: Because she also sold for the teams later or something. JUANA JIMENEZ: Later on. JOSE JIMENEZ: Or before (inaudible). JUANA JIMENEZ: But that was a lot later on for the Puerto Rican community. Let’s say they would have raffles and things that would help for the girls that wanted to run like for Puerto Rican queen or something, she did a lot of selling of pasteles. JOSE JIMENEZ: Oh, for the ones that ran for Puerto Rican queens. JUANA JIMENEZ: Puerto Rican queens. JOSE JIMENEZ: So Puerto Rican queen in Chicago. So this was later on in Aurora or was this in Chicago? JUANA JIMENEZ: She did that later on in Aurora, but she did this in Chicago, too. But in Chicago she did it first because for our income. We didn’t have a lot of money. [00:22:00] At that time, there was no food. I remember dad going one time when we lived there on Bissell Street, he would go out to these farm areas, he would 17 �bring back sacks of potatoes. One week would be potatoes. We’d have potatoes for breakfast, for lunch -- different ways he would make them, but he would make them and bring them. Another time he would bring a sack or corn. We’d have corn different ways. You know, all sorts of fruit, vegetables, or whatever, but he would bring sacks of them because it was a time of depression. There was no money, no jobs, nothing. Nothing. JOSE JIMENEZ: So what year was this about? JUANA JIMENEZ: You’re going to tell me the year. All I remember is we had food in our stomachs. (laughs) I don’t know. I remember being small. It’s really weird because there’s a lot of things that I would like to remember, and I can’t remember them. JOSE JIMENEZ: Was this the hippie time? JUANA JIMENEZ: [00:23:00] That was at the hippie time. That was the hippie time. JOSE JIMENEZ: So ’67, ’66, ’68 -- JUANA JIMENEZ: Around there. JOSE JIMENEZ: Around there. Okay, so that’s when he brought the sacks of food, and that’s when you said it was a depression. People were kind of poor. Yeah, that sounds like that time. JUANA JIMENEZ: He would go out and work on these farms and just come back and bring back sacks. JOSE JIMENEZ: He would work at the farms? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, he would work at farms. He said they would pick him up or something at a certain place, and he would work, and then come back. 18 �JOSE JIMENEZ: Oh, so this was west Chicago. This was (inaudible) or something like that. JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, something like that. JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay. (inaudible) was in west Chicago, and people straight from Puerto Rico would come to work there. And, in fact, dad did work that as a migrant work before, so he was used to working that. So he probably went and worked -- from Chicago he went to work -JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, he did. JOSE JIMENEZ: ’Cause he couldn’t find no job. JUANA JIMENEZ: There was no jobs anywhere. JOSE JIMENEZ: But didn’t he work for Armour Food Company? JUANA JIMENEZ: He worked for Armour Food Company. JOSE JIMENEZ: And where was that? Was that the one on [00:24:00] Sedgwick or something? JUANA JIMENEZ: I don’t know. I really don’t know much about -JOSE JIMENEZ: But it was Armour Food. JUANA JIMENEZ: It was Armour Food ’cause I remember also one of our uncles, my dad’s brother -JOSE JIMENEZ: So it was a meat company. JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, the meat company. Our uncle would work for the like nuts or something, and he would bring to our house -JOSE JIMENEZ: Peanuts across the street from (inaudible). JUANA JIMENEZ: Yes. They were all these different -- 19 �JOSE JIMENEZ: Superior and [Wells?] Street, it was a peanut factory. JUANA JIMENEZ: -- all these sorts of nuts. And then we were really happy for that. JOSE JIMENEZ: So Superior and Wells Street, the peanut factory there. So a lot of us worked there. A lot the family worked there. So you mentioned the Italian gangs on Fremont and Armitage, around there. But then what about Bissell Street and Dickens? Do you remember that? JUANA JIMENEZ: Bissell and Dickens, yes, I remember that. JOSE JIMENEZ: 2117 Bissell. JUANA JIMENEZ: I liked that place. [00:25:00] It was -JOSE JIMENEZ: Why did you like that place? JUANA JIMENEZ: Well, it was nice. There was a lot of people, especially during the summertime, there was a lot of people that would come out and, you know, have fun, and talk, and things like that. I remember one time that I really didn’t like that you were looking for a job, and I think that’s the time that the cops beat you up or something. JOSE JIMENEZ: I was coming home from work. JUANA JIMENEZ: You were coming home from work on a Friday. JOSE JIMENEZ: I was working at (inaudible), and I was coming, and (inaudible). JUANA JIMENEZ: You were happy because it was your first paycheck, and you already was drinkin’, but you were just walking down. And I was inside the house cooking with my sisters. And, of course, we had to be cooking all the time, and my mom would either be next door talkin’ to somebody, and we had to be fixing the food and having that ready. And someone told me, “Oh, Joseph’s coming,” 20 �you know, [00:26:00] “José is coming, and he’s arguing with someone on the corner.” So I ran over there to see what was going on, and I heard the man said something that he was gonna kill you or something, and he was going to get his gun, and he went inside to get a gun. I remember saying to you, “Everything is fine, don’t worry. Let’s just go home. Let’s go home.” And you just wanted to keep arguing with the man ’cause you were drunk. But I just kept pushing you towards the house and almost -JOSE JIMENEZ: That’s why I thought he was arguing at you (inaudible). JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, you thought he was arguing and saying something to me, and he wasn’t. JOSE JIMENEZ: He was talking to some other girl. JUANA JIMENEZ: He was talking to somebody else. JOSE JIMENEZ: Some other girl. JUANA JIMENEZ: And you wanted to save me from -- but I kept pushing you away, “He’s okay, he’s okay.” And I guess he went in the house, and he said he was gonna get a gun or something. Somebody called the cops. I don’t know. And as we were walking down to the house, almost right in front of the house, like a house away from our house, the cops [00:27:00] stopped you and asked you if there was any problem. And I said, “No, there’s no problem. He just came home from work, he’s fine. He’s going home.” And they wanted to see your ID or whatever, I don’t know. The next thing I know they had thrown you on the ground, and they were all -- it was like three guys on top of you trying to beat you up, and hitting you, and kicking your head, and slamming it on the sidewalk. And 21 �I didn’t want them to hurt you, so I went and I put my hand under your head so it wouldn’t hurt you. And they just went like this, and slammed their hand against my body and, of course, I was so thin I just flew and hit my back against this fence that was there. And I just said, “Leave him alone. Leave him alone.” But, of course, they just kept kicking you. And all the neighbors were all around trying to find out what was going on. And then mom came out and [00:28:00] they had taken you away. JOSE JIMENEZ: So mom comes out and what happens? JUANA JIMENEZ: Nothing. She started screaming, and telling ’em that that was her son, that you weren’t doing anything, “Let’s just talk about it to fix it.” And I believe they said -- because my mom was trying to stop them from fighting and hitting you -- I think she grabbed somebody or one of the cops by the mouth or something, and they said -JOSE JIMENEZ: She threw a bottle at them. JUANA JIMENEZ: I don’t know, she did something, and they said that my mom -JOSE JIMENEZ: It broke a tooth. Broke a tooth. JUANA JIMENEZ: -- broke a tooth, yeah. JOSE JIMENEZ: Broke a policeman’s tooth. JUANA JIMENEZ: Broke a policeman’s tooth. JOSE JIMENEZ: ’Cause she just threw a bottle at somebody. Everybody got involved, right? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, everybody got involved. JOSE JIMENEZ: I mean the whole family -- Daisy, you, Myrna. 22 �JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, everybody. So they were gonna take my mom because she broke the tooth, and I went with her because I didn’t want her to be alone over there. Of course, she didn’t know any English. JOSE JIMENEZ: So you went with her over there? JUANA JIMENEZ: I went with her. JOSE JIMENEZ: Was she in the police car? JUANA JIMENEZ: [00:29:00] She went in the police car. JOSE JIMENEZ: Not in paddy wagon? JUANA JIMENEZ: Well, I don’t know if it was a paddy wagon. JOSE JIMENEZ: Paddy wagon is like a truck. JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, I know. JOSE JIMENEZ: Or was it a police car that she went? I thought I had seen her in a paddy wagon. JUANA JIMENEZ: It could have been a paddy wagon. It could have been. JOSE JIMENEZ: You know, at least for a little bit. JUANA JIMENEZ: I know they took her and I went with her. JOSE JIMENEZ: ’Cause I was half asleep drunk, but I woke up and I thought I saw her. But you drove in the squad car. JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, I probably drove in the -JOSE JIMENEZ: Me and mom drove in the paddy wagon. That’s what it was. JUANA JIMENEZ: That’s what it was because I knew you didn’t do anything, and they told her that she broke somebody’s tooth, and I thought, “How could that little old lady (laughs) chip somebody’s tooth?” But there was my mom defending us. 23 �JOSE JIMENEZ: So how did you feel about that? What was that to you? Seeing your mom and your brother being arrested. JUANA JIMENEZ: I had a lot of mixed feelings. You know, it was really [00:30:00] weird because the police are supposed to be helping us, saving us, but I believe that those cops were drunk themselves because you could smell beer or something, the alcohol from them. And the way they acted. And when I went over there and I told them about it, they had to let my mother go, too, because I was a minor and they hurt me. They threw me against a fence. I kept telling them, “Leave him alone,” and they didn’t say anything to me, they just -- with one hand and I flew away. That was me. JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, then what happened later with the case? Do you know? JUANA JIMENEZ: I don’t know what happened to the case later on. I was never told about anything anyway. But I know that you were in jail for a little bit. And I just kept thinking, “How?” You just got yourself a job, trying to get yourself fixed, [00:31:00] go to work and do things good, and the cops ruin it again. It was really hard growing up especially there that you weren’t there the half the time ’cause -JOSE JIMENEZ: Where was I? JUANA JIMENEZ: You were either with your friends or in jail. And it’s like if we grew up without a brother, really, it was just the three girls. Just the three girls always ’cause you were really never really there. JOSE JIMENEZ: So what did the three girls do to live? JUANA JIMENEZ: To live? Clean, cook, wash clothes -- wash clothes by hand in the bath tub because we had no washing machine. Just like if she would be living 24 �over here, “Oh, I did this all the time in the river.” There was no river there, there was a bath tub. JOSE JIMENEZ: So mom would say, “I did it in the river?” JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah. So we had to be washing clothes. JOSE JIMENEZ: [00:32:00] In the bath tub water. JUANA JIMENEZ: In the bath tub with one of those -- the boards. JOSE JIMENEZ: Washboards. JUANA JIMENEZ: Washboards. That’s what it was. One of those boards. JOSE JIMENEZ: And where did you dry the clothes? JUANA JIMENEZ: When it was wash day, there was like rope hanging from the living room, dining room, bedrooms, everywhere. You had push away the clothes just to get from one room to the other. That’s the way the clothes were dried because we didn’t even have money to go and wash clothes in the laundromat, or it was too cold to go out to wash the clothes. And then after that, we had to iron all this. And my mother was the type that she would iron t-shirts, underwear, and the bed sheets -- the sheets for the beds, we had to iron the sheets, and pillowcases, and all this other stuff. JOSE JIMENEZ: What about grocery shopping? [00:33:00] Where did you go shopping? JUANA JIMENEZ: I don’t remember ever going shopping with her -- or with my mom or dad, grocery shopping. We had to stay at home until they bought groceries. JOSE JIMENEZ: Now, you’re living in the best place that you like, 2117 Bissell. What happened? Why did you move from there? 25 �JUANA JIMENEZ: Well, we moved from there because at that time, my father was always -- “You have to go to work, you have to go to work.” I was going to high school -- “You have to find work.” JOSE JIMENEZ: You were going to high school where? JUANA JIMENEZ: When we were on Bissell Street. JOSE JIMENEZ: What high school? JUANA JIMENEZ: Waller High School in Chicago. JOSE JIMENEZ: Oh, you went to Waller High School? JUANA JIMENEZ: I went to Waller High School. And I went to Arnold Upper Grade Center, and then I went to Waller High School. And he just kept [00:34:00] saying, “You have to look for a job, you have to look for a job, you have to” -- he just drove me crazy because I had to look for a job because there was no jobs anywhere. Looking for jobs in Chicago -JOSE JIMENEZ: Why would you have to look for a job? JUANA JIMENEZ: Pardon? JOSE JIMENEZ: Why did you have to look for a job? JUANA JIMENEZ: Because there was no money, and, you know, to get to live, and have more bills, and to help my parents out, I had to look for a job and work. I remember my -JOSE JIMENEZ: So he wanted you to go look for work and then give him money. JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, and give him money. But I’m slick, I never gave him anything. (laughs) I never gave him anything. But, anyway, the thing was that the very first job that I looked for was with a friend of mine and we both got lost 26 �looking. We went to this nursing home looking for a job, and she says, “Oh, I know exactly where it’s at.” We went from one train to the other, got another train, and then got off of that, got on another train, we got onto the bus. [00:35:00] I don’t know where we were at, but I know we were walking, we were lost. I said, “Well, let’s ask a police officer.” “No.” She didn’t want to ask no police officer. And I said, “Well, okay. Let’s find somewhere where we can call.” She finally called her dad, and in that little car it was her dad, her mom, my mom, my dad, me, and her. We were all squished into one car -- oh, plus my sisters. (laughs) We were all squeezed in one little car when they picked us up and went back. We never got the job, but we looked for the job. My first job that I did finally find was a spot-welding place. Don’t know the name of it, but that’s where I met my neighbor’s cousin. And he offered to take me ’cause he said that he would go that way all the time [00:36:00] so that he could work, so he would offer to take me as a ride. And I would have rather taken the bus, it didn’t bother me. But at that time, things went back and forth, and we just started talking and stuff like that. And he says to me one day, he says, “Let’s go to the movies.” And I had never been to a movie. I never went to the movies before. And he says, “Well, you don’t have to go to work. Nobody will find out that you went to the movies.” I say, “Okay, let’s go to the movies.” Well, we went to the movies, things got a little bit late, he says, “Now you can’t go home because if you go home, your mom’s gonna -- you know, they’re gonna get you because they’re gonna say, ‘Where were you?’” I says, “Well, I’ll tell them that I was with you,” 27 �and stuff like this. He says, “She’s not gonna believe that we didn’t do anything, you with a guy.” So he kinda blackmailed me. JOSE JIMENEZ: Who was this guy? JUANA JIMENEZ: His name is [00:37:00] Michael (inaudible). JOSE JIMENEZ: So Michael. Just say Michael. JUANA JIMENEZ: Mike, yes. JOSE JIMENEZ: And this guy was from the school? JUANA JIMENEZ: No, this guy was not from the school. JOSE JIMENEZ: From the neighborhood? JUANA JIMENEZ: He was the cousin that went to visit -- he would come to visit his cousin next door. JOSE JIMENEZ: From Bissell? JUANA JIMENEZ: From Bissell. That’s how I met him. JOSE JIMENEZ: So you met him like sitting on the stairs? People used to sit on the stairs. JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, people used to sit on the stairs. And she said, “Oh, this is my cousin. He can give you a ride.” And things got back and forth, and, well, like I said, he came and he kind of blackmailed me. And I had to stay at this place for a while, and my mom was looking for me. JOSE JIMENEZ: You stayed for a while? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, I had to stay there a few days -- forever almost because -JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, so that was a boyfriend you had. 28 �JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, well, at that time he became a boyfriend. But [00:38:00] he mistreated me, also. JOSE JIMENEZ: But he blackmailed you. JUANA JIMENEZ: He blackmailed me into staying with him. JOSE JIMENEZ: He suckered you in. JUANA JIMENEZ: He suckered me in, yeah. JOSE JIMENEZ: But how can you be suckered in? JUANA JIMENEZ: Because I was a very naïve person. At that time, remember, we didn’t live -- we didn’t know anything about the streets. All we knew was cooking, cleaning, and staying in the house, and that’s -- we didn’t know anything about the outside. And that was the first time that I went to the movies. First time I went to the movies with that guy. JOSE JIMENEZ: With this guy named Michael? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yes. And so after that, we -- of course, I made him so that I could call my mom and let them know where I was. He went by the house, and my sister had a boyfriend around that area, and Michael knew her boyfriend, they were friends, he told her [00:39:00] that I was with him, and she should tell my mom ’cause my mom was going crazy. And I was already 17, almost going on -that happened like a few weeks before my 18th birthday. Eighteen, and people think, “Wow, 18 and she didn’t have a brain.” Yes because we didn’t know anything about nothing. Things that women should know that I would tell my kids -- that my granddaughter now knows and my granddaughter is nine. She knows all about this. She knows how babies come from -- the real way, and how her 29 �body changes and everything. I never knew any of this because my mother never told me. The first time I ever knew that my body was gonna change and I was gonna get my period or something was from a doctor. And I remember screaming at that doctor saying, “I don’t want it. Take it away. Give me a pill or something. Take that away because I don’t want it.” [00:40:00] And he’s telling me how my body was gonna change and everything because my mother never talked about this stuff to us because that was voodoo, that was stuff that women don’t talk about. As a matter of fact, she would tell us that you could get pregnant by holding hands or a little kiss. What did I know? JOSE JIMENEZ: Your mom? JUANA JIMENEZ: My mom. JOSE JIMENEZ: Mom told you that? JUANA JIMENEZ: Oh, yes. We couldn’t even hold hands. Imagine I was so naïve the very first kiss I got from a boy, I ran and told my mom, “Mom, I just got a kiss, this so and so person kissed me.” She says, “He kissed you on your cheek?” “No, he kissed me on my lips.” (laughter) I was such a dummy. I didn’t know anything because she wouldn’t tell us anything about life. And this is how I got suckered into staying with this guy because -- and I believed him. If I go back home, I was gonna get beat up. I was gonna get really, really badly beat up and they were gonna [00:41:00] throw me out because I stayed with a guy. Believing him, I stayed with him. And look who beat me up? He beat me up. My parents didn’t, he did. JOSE JIMENEZ: Your parents never beat you up? 30 �JUANA JIMENEZ: Beat me up? No. Spanked? Yes. JOSE JIMENEZ: Who spanked you? JUANA JIMENEZ: (laughs) My dad every once in a while. I was not a very good girl (laughs) ’cause I had a mouth. Being not a good girl is having a mouth. I would get tired of things. JOSE JIMENEZ: I was gonna say so the good thing about -- looking at the good side of that is that all those years you didn’t know anything about sex and all that. JUANA JIMENEZ: Nothing. JOSE JIMENEZ: So that means you weren’t abused, right? I mean all those years, never being abused. JUANA JIMENEZ: Abused from my parents? JOSE JIMENEZ: From parents or from anybody. Were you abused? I mean you don’t have to answer it. JUANA JIMENEZ: I’m not gonna answer that. JOSE JIMENEZ: [00:42:00] Okay, all right. (inaudible) I mean we don’t have to answer that. JUANA JIMENEZ: No, I’m not gonna answer that. JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, so now Michael is there, and now you left Michael and you went back home or what happened? JUANA JIMENEZ: Once I was with him, he would lock me in the house ’cause he was afraid I was gonna leave ’cause he was right. If he left the door open, I would leave ’cause I wanted to get out of there. JOSE JIMENEZ: So was Michael Spanish? 31 �JUANA JIMENEZ: He was Puerto Rican. JOSE JIMENEZ: Oh, he was Puerto Rican? Michael was Latin? Okay. JUANA JIMENEZ: [Algarin?] or something. That’s what he said his last name was, [Algarin?]. So he would lock me -- the door that we had was like one of those skeleton key things. JOSE JIMENEZ: (inaudible). JUANA JIMENEZ: Joey. He would have the little skeleton key. He could lock the door from the inside or lock the door from the outside. So when he went to work, he would lock the door. If there was a fire, I would burn in because I couldn’t get out. [00:43:00] But the neighbors next door could hear me screaming sometimes because he would beat me up. JOSE JIMENEZ: So he lived on Bissell Street? JUANA JIMENEZ: No, he didn’t live on Bissell Street. He lived on Francisco, close to Humboldt Park. JOSE JIMENEZ: But he came over to Bissell. JUANA JIMENEZ: He would go to Bissell because he had his cousin that lived next door to our house. JOSE JIMENEZ: And that’s where you met him on the porch? JUANA JIMENEZ: And that’s where I met him. JOSE JIMENEZ: And then he lied to you -- I mean he tricked you. JUANA JIMENEZ: He tricked me into staying with him which I did. And I remember one time to escape from him, I got out through the kitchen window, opened the window because I couldn’t open the door. I got up through the window, came out 32 �to the ledge, it was like a first floor thing, came out to the ledge, and jumped from that floor all the way down. And I just jumped. When I jumped, and came back up, there was he -- he was standing right there in front of me. [00:44:00] So what happened was that that day (audio cuts out) “I just wanna go home. I want to go back to my parents.” And he says, “Okay, well, let’s go up and get your purse so we can go.” Well, the wrong thing to do ’cause I went back up, he locked the door, and beat me up again. The next day he locked me up real good, locked everything up, I couldn’t go anywhere. But the bed, there was another door -there was the bed and a door right behind the bed. I pulled that bed, and I don’t know how I got my strength, but as soon as he left -- as soon as he left -- I pulled that bed out, and I got the hinges out from the door, and I pulled the door out. And when I went out, the first thing I looked, when I stopped, was the lady next door. And she looked at me, she says, “Don’t be scared. Don’t be scared. Just run and get out.” ’Cause she could hear me every night screaming and crying. She says, “Just run. Just run. He’s not gonna [00:45:00] be around, I won’t tell him anything. Just run and get out.” When I ran, I ran to where the church -JOSE JIMENEZ: The Young Lords church. JUANA JIMENEZ: The Young Lords church was at that corner. JOSE JIMENEZ: This is when the Young Lords were political, they weren’t a gang. JUANA JIMENEZ: No, they weren’t a gang. Not at that time. And I ran down to that section, and I talked to you, and then you said, “What happened?” And I didn’t have to say much because you could see my face, the way I was, anyway. And I also told you what happened, and you said, “Well, just stay here. You’re gonna 33 �stay away. Just stay on this side close by. We’re gonna just see what we’re gonna do.” And you took me, I remember, to my friend’s house, my best friend’s house, and I stayed there. Then you came back for me. When you came back for me, you took me back to where he was at, [00:46:00] and you kinda pushed him. And he was all bruised up, I guess. He got beat up, too. I was never happy for anybody to get beat up, but for him, at that time, I really didn’t care. I was kinda happy he got it, too. I kept telling myself inside, “I told him this was gonna happen. I told him.” (laughs) I’m glad for my brother. He says, “Oh, look what I let him do to me.” And I kept thinking, “Yeah, right. They hold him down while Joseph beat him up. That’s fine with me. I don’t care.” I don’t want to believe anything he said -- “Oh, but I’m sorry. I love you. I love you. I’m gonna marry you.” Didn’t believe anything he had to say. From there, you took me back to mom’s. At that time, I already almost couldn’t even walk because jumping from the day before, jumping from the first story down, I was all bruised up. I was really hurting. [00:47:00] And when you took me back to mom’s house, my bedroom wasn’t mine anymore, it was my sister’s bedroom. My mom says, “Well, you left, we gave your bedroom to somebody else.” And I remember sleeping in the living room on one of those folding -JOSE JIMENEZ: So did she want to take you back? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, she took me back. She took me back. And the next day, my father, we went to Aurora, and -JOSE JIMENEZ: This was on Claremont Street. When you were living on Claremont. We started on Bissell, but by that time -- 34 �JUANA JIMENEZ: No. JOSE JIMENEZ: -- mom was living on Claremont. JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, then mom was living already on Claremont. We started on Bissell, and then from there we moved. JOSE JIMENEZ: North Avenue and Claremont. JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, then we moved and went down to Claremont. And then from Claremont, that’s where we moved -- when I went back ’cause I didn’t know that they were already there, and they took -- then we went down to Aurora. JOSE JIMENEZ: What happened after that? You had a child from him, right? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yes, I did. [00:48:00] My son. I was pregnant, which I didn’t know that I was pregnant. And I kept thinking, “Oh, my God. How am I gonna have this baby without a father?” Didn’t think about that a woman can do it. I kept thinking, “No, he needs a father, he needs a father.” So I went back with him. And all I did was go back with him, the slapping and the beating up again. I ran out right the next day. I went out, went to this church that was close by, and I talked to the priest there, and he says, “You know, you’re of age, if you want, you can stay living here in this unwed mother’s home that he knew.” And I said, “Fine.” Didn’t bother me. But, of course, there were girls there that were giving up their baby, but I wasn’t gonna give up my baby. So I had to work there for my stay. I worked there. And, well, after that, he kept trying to look for us, [00:49:00] and we moved from where we at in my cousin’s house in Aurora, they found another apartment or another house to rent on Claim. It was on Claim Street. JOSE JIMENEZ: Claim in Aurora. 35 �JUANA JIMENEZ: In Aurora. JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay. Let’s go on back a little bit. JUANA JIMENEZ: That’s really far back now. (laughs) JOSE JIMENEZ: But we’ll go back a little bit. Did I ask you about mom’s catechism classes or no? JUANA JIMENEZ: No, you didn’t. JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, do you remember those? JUANA JIMENEZ: I remember, but she was giving catechism classes -- I think it was even in that one basement. JOSE JIMENEZ: By Dayton Street, right? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, around there. JOSE JIMENEZ: Yeah, we lived near -- we lived on one side of the street then we moved to the other. JUANA JIMENEZ: Then we [00:50:00] moved the other street. JOSE JIMENEZ: (inaudible). JUANA JIMENEZ: We kept moving from one side to the other, we were like gypsies just moving from one side to the other. JOSE JIMENEZ: Dayton near Willow Street. Near Willow. JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah. She did a lot of catechism there. And that’s where my sister -JOSE JIMENEZ: What was that about? What was that about? JUANA JIMENEZ: Well, I guess she was involved in all this stuff of the church. And one day, she comes up and she says that she’s gonna -- there was some kids 36 �that were gonna be coming in so they could do their communion and stuff. And I had to, of course, be there, too. We were like -- well, I just did what I was told. She says, “Stay here. You gotta learn this and you have to learn about God.” And we just had to do what we were told. JOSE JIMENEZ: That’s where your sister what? You were saying. JUANA JIMENEZ: Well, because Daisy was too small. She was about four, she wasn’t quite five yet. And you had to be a certain age to do your communion. And she wasn’t gonna be [00:51:00] the one in the classes, but since she was close, she was very smart, she learned everything -- everything. And they let her make her first communion ’cause when they were doing the test, and they said that she couldn’t because she was too young, she started to cry. And when they gave her the test to see if she knew it, she knew it better than anybody. Mom didn’t even give her classes, she was just there close by, and she listened to everything. She listened. JOSE JIMENEZ: How were the classes? Do you remember seeing any of the classes? I mean ’cause mom didn’t go to school, so how did she do that? JUANA JIMENEZ: No. She didn’t go to school, but -JOSE JIMENEZ: So how could she teach people if she didn’t go to school? JUANA JIMENEZ: Because she didn’t go to school, but her sister taught her how to read and write. She didn’t know how to write real well, but she -JOSE JIMENEZ: Her sister, (inaudible)? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah. JOSE JIMENEZ: So she learned how to write. 37 �JUANA JIMENEZ: She learned how to read. JOSE JIMENEZ: Or write. JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, she could read. JOSE JIMENEZ: So how did she run the classes then? JUANA JIMENEZ: [00:52:00] Just by learning by heart all the -JOSE JIMENEZ: Learning by heart? JUANA JIMENEZ: Everything was learned by heart. JOSE JIMENEZ: In other words, the kids had to repeat everything? JUANA JIMENEZ: Everything. Everything. JOSE JIMENEZ: She would say a sentence and they would have to repeat it? JUANA JIMENEZ: And they would have to repeat it. And she would just teach ’em what she knew. She taught them everything that she knew. JOSE JIMENEZ: They had to repeat her with respect, too, right? JUANA JIMENEZ: Well, of course. JOSE JIMENEZ: Didn’t they have to say, “Yes, mam,” “No, mam.” JUANA JIMENEZ: Yes, (laughs) that was it. JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, so they would say, “Yes, mam. Christ rose from the dead on the third day.” “No, mam. He didn’t do this, he didn’t do that.” That’s the way she taught it? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah. But she would say it in Spanish. It was, “Si, señora.” JOSE JIMENEZ: Yeah, “Si, señora,” in Spanish. JUANA JIMENEZ: “Si, señora.” JOSE JIMENEZ: But that’s the way she taught? 38 �JUANA JIMENEZ: That’s the way she taught. JOSE JIMENEZ: So everybody had it memorized. JUANA JIMENEZ: And it was the old way of learning and teaching, the way she -JOSE JIMENEZ: Did she graduate a lot of kids? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, a lot of them. A lot of them. JOSE JIMENEZ: How many were in a class at a time about? Thirty? Twenty? JUANA JIMENEZ: No, I think that was [00:53:00] too many. They were a lot. But in one class -JOSE JIMENEZ: Twenty-five? JUANA JIMENEZ: Could be about 25. It was a lot. There was a lot. A lot, a lot of kids. She even taught a lot of kids for the altar boys. JOSE JIMENEZ: To become altar boys? JUANA JIMENEZ: To become altar boys. JOSE JIMENEZ: She’d train ’em? JUANA JIMENEZ: She would train ’em. She did a lot of that, too. JOSE JIMENEZ: You said you went to Waller, and you went to what’s that other school? Arnold? JUANA JIMENEZ: Arnold Upper Grade Center. JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay. You went for three years there? JUANA JIMENEZ: I went there for -- it was sixth, seventh, eighth -- the two years in Arnold Upper Grade Center. JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay. And how was that? JUANA JIMENEZ: It was different. 39 �JOSE JIMENEZ: Were there Spanish kids or no? JUANA JIMENEZ: There were a lot of Black people. [00:54:00] There were a lot of Black kids. Some Spanish kids. I didn’t like the Catholic school that we went to. They were all high-class American kids. Out of the whole school there was one Black girl, I remember, and just a few Puerto Ricans. The rest was all white. All white kids which they thought they were in a (inaudible) Catholic School, they were better than anybody. We were very quiet. And I really didn’t like it. And it was really hard for me, and I did fail. I failed to go to sixth grade, I failed there, and I told my mom, “If you don’t take me out of this school, I don’t want to go back to school.” So that’s when she put me in a public school. And I went to a public school in sixth grade, and from there, then I went to [00:55:00] Arnold Upper Grade Center in seventh and eighth grade. JOSE JIMENEZ: So that’s St. Teresa’s where you had all these white kids. JUANA JIMENEZ: All white kids. JOSE JIMENEZ: And when you say white you mean like Italian, Irish? JUANA JIMENEZ: Italian, Irish -- to me, they were all white. Anybody that wasn’t Puerto Rican was white -- or either Puerto Rican or Black. Other than that, everybody else was -- to me, there were just three people: white, Blacks, Puerto Ricans. JOSE JIMENEZ: So that’s all? There was white? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, it was just white, Puerto Ricans, and one Black. JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, that was it. Just three races. 40 �JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, three races to me. That’s the only people that was around until I went to public school. When I went to public school, you see all these different people. And I was very popular, and I loved sixth grade. I was glad I failed. (laughs) JOSE JIMENEZ: At Arnold? This was at Arnold? JUANA JIMENEZ: No, this was not at Arnold. This was the school before Arnold which I don’t remember the name of the school, but I was there just for one year. That was in sixth grade. And then from -JOSE JIMENEZ: [00:56:00] Sexton? Not Sexton. Newberry? JUANA JIMENEZ: It was maybe Newberry School. Newberry School. JOSE JIMENEZ: That was on Willow Street. JUANA JIMENEZ: I think it was Newberry School. JOSE JIMENEZ: Burling and Willow. JUANA JIMENEZ: It had to be because I remember that name, Newberry. But then after that, at Arnold -JOSE JIMENEZ: I remember Newberry before we went to St. Teresa’s, and then St. Teresa -- but you went to Arnold. JUANA JIMENEZ: I went to Arnold Upper Grade Center which was nice. And remember -JOSE JIMENEZ: So you probably went to Newberry. JUANA JIMENEZ: -- at that time, the girls could not wear pants. Of course, at that time, it was like miniskirts, and mini dresses, and stuff like this. But to school, you were not allowed to wear pants at all even in the freezing whether that we 41 �had to walk six, seven blocks down just to go to school -- [00:57:00] below zero weather. You’d go to school freezing until they finally said, “Well, the girls could wear pants, but under the skirt.” As soon as they got in the school, they had to hurry up and take those pants off and put ’em in their locker. They were not allowed to be walking around with the pants. But it was nice. I liked it. I remember graduating from there and everything. JOSE JIMENEZ: Do you remember any of your classmates? JUANA JIMENEZ: One Mexican girl. Oh, God, I can’t remember her name. This one Mexican girl. And another girl which became my best friend, an American girl, her name was [Sandra Morales?] because her father was a Puerto Rican. Her mother was American, (laugher) her father was a Puerto Rican, and she lived close by. It was Sandra Morales, she was my best friend, and that’s why I named my oldest daughter [Sandy?]. It was Sandra, her name. JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, this was from Arnold. JUANA JIMENEZ: It was from [00:58:00] Arnold. JOSE JIMENEZ: Were you in gym or anything? What kind of classes? JUANA JIMENEZ: Oh, yes, I went to gym class. And, of course, Joseph, Cha-Cha, was very famous there because even the teacher in the gym class knew you. He says, “But your brother did this, and he was a good student, how is your brother?” And I thought, “He’s fine.” (laughs) Just like, “Who is this guy telling me about my brother?” (laughs) He wanted me to be better than my brother because he knew that my brother was always in gangs and stuff like this, and getting himself in trouble, and he didn’t want me to go through that. And gym 42 �class was okay. Never got beat up from anybody in school there, in that school at least. (laughs) [00:59:00] But there were some Black girls that were bothering me one time, but this other group of Black girls said, “Hey, leave her alone, she didn’t do anything.” They were really nice to me, but not in gym. When they played kickball, they kicked that ball and hit your face, hit your arm, hit whatever it was and they did it hard. (laughs) JOSE JIMENEZ: Kickball or dodgeball? JUANA JIMENEZ: Dodgeball. JOSE JIMENEZ: Dodgeball. So you played a lot of dodgeball? JUANA JIMENEZ: Oh, yes. And I really got all the bruises at that time for it. But it was okay. After I graduated -- of course, my mother never went to my graduation class -- or my father. Never went to school, I never saw them inside a school for nothing. Nothing. I remember being in Arnold School, and I had to go to my sister’s -- [01:00:00] one of these recital things that she had from school. And I had to go from one -- from my school, skip class to go and see what she was doing so at least a family member could go ’cause my mother wasn’t gonna go. I asked a teacher for permission, the teacher said at least she knows where I was at, but she couldn’t give me permission, but try to get to school as soon as I can. Said at least she knew where I was at. Anything my sisters had for school, I would go. I would skip school just so I could go what my sisters were doing ’cause my mom and dad never -- ’cause in Puerto Rico here, they never went to anything like this. In Puerto Rico, you either go to school, learn what you had to do, come home. You never had to go to the school and find out how your kids 43 �are doing unless they were fighting. That’s about it. So I did all the [01:01:00] going to the school for my sisters. And then from there, when I graduated, then I went to Waller High School. JOSE JIMENEZ: How far did you go at Waller? JUANA JIMENEZ: In Waller, I was a freshman and I didn’t even finish freshman because my father kept fighting -- “Go look for job. Go look for a job.” At that time, it was Blacks against whites. It was the time of just fighting all the time with the Blacks and the whites. All the time pulling down the fire alarm -JOSE JIMENEZ: (inaudible). Pulling the alarm. JUANA JIMENEZ: Pulling the alarm, a lot of riots. So my father would wait for me -JOSE JIMENEZ: A lot of kids would pull the alarm? JUANA JIMENEZ: They would pull the alarm, and everybody had to run outside, and you’d get trampled down the stairs, really hurt bad, just to get out of the building. So my father, he got tired of waiting for me, he would take me to school -- and this is in high school -- he would take me to school, and when [01:02:00] I got out of school at the end of the day, he was out there waiting for me just so nothing would happen until he saw that everything was fine. Then I could go home on my home. Or the times he was working he wouldn’t pick me up, but when he wasn’t working, he’d be there waiting for me to make sure I was gonna get home fine. JOSE JIMENEZ: What did you think about the Young Lords? JUANA JIMENEZ: The Young Lords as a gang or Young Lords -JOSE JIMENEZ: What did you think when they were a gang? 44 �JUANA JIMENEZ: All I could think was, “Oh, wow. My brother’s the head of these guys.” (laughs) I was happy ’cause you were the one -- like the president of the gang. You were the head one there, and I thought that was cool. But then after all this time that they would come to the house [01:03:00] looking for you all the time because someone stole the car, or they look everywhere -JOSE JIMENEZ: Who would come? JUANA JIMENEZ: The police. The police would come to the house with their flashlight going into the bedrooms. And my mother’s over here yelling at the police, “Get out of the girls’ room! Get out of the girls’ room!” I remember -JOSE JIMENEZ: Detectives or regular cops? JUANA JIMENEZ: Both. There were detectives and cops with them, together, because there were some that wore plain clothes and some that had their uniforms. JOSE JIMENEZ: And this was during the gang? JUANA JIMENEZ: During the gang time. JOSE JIMENEZ: They were looking for stolen stuff? JUANA JIMENEZ: They were really looking for you to take you away for stolen things. They had it in for you guys all the time. Whenever anything happened, it was the Young Lords Organization -- or not an organization, the Young Lords gang at that time that did it. JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, but I mean I don’t -- JUANA JIMENEZ: I remember that you did go to jail for something. I don’t know if it was for stealing a car or something. I really can’t remember, [01:04:00] but I 45 �know that you were in this institute really far away. I remember driving down just to visit you with mom, and dad, and someone else that they found to take them down. JOSE JIMENEZ: Oh, Vandalia. Vandalia, Illinois. Southern Illinois. JUANA JIMENEZ: Yes. JOSE JIMENEZ: So that was for the stabbing. JUANA JIMENEZ: Oh, that was for the stabbing. You stayed there for a while. JOSE JIMENEZ: Six months. JUANA JIMENEZ: I remember that you would say, “Oh, they want me to work out here.” And you would do things on purpose so that they can just leave you in solitary so you wouldn’t have to work in the sun. You’d be out away from the sun and stuff like that you would say. JOSE JIMENEZ: Yeah, 15 days in the hole because I refused to work. But it was better than working in the sun. Okay, so you went with mom to Vandalia to visit me there? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, I remember that. JOSE JIMENEZ: So how did you feel on that trip that you were visiting your brother that’s in jail? JUANA JIMENEZ: Oh, I was happy to at least see you. I really didn’t think bad about anything. I thought, to me, it was just part of [01:05:00] life. We’re gonna go see my brother finally, and I hadn’t seen you for a long time, and half the time you were never there. 46 �JOSE JIMENEZ: So that was when it was a gang. So how did you feel when it was a political group? JUANA JIMENEZ: Well, when it was a political group, I thought it was really good because you were really helping the Puerto Rican community. You were helping so that at least the parents can go to work and the kids can have a daycare and stuff, they can have good breakfast. You were trying to help the people. JOSE JIMENEZ: You mean there was breakfast for children (inaudible)? JUANA JIMENEZ: There was breakfast for children. JOSE JIMENEZ: And then there was also a daycare center. JUANA JIMENEZ: And a daycare center. JOSE JIMENEZ: And so you thought that the Young Lords were helping at that time. JUANA JIMENEZ: I thought that was helping a lot. JOSE JIMENEZ: Now, did you know some of those Young Lords or no? JUANA JIMENEZ: No, not really because I was not allowed to even associate with any of them. JOSE JIMENEZ: Even the women? You didn’t know the other women? JUANA JIMENEZ: No. I would know them by far away. It’s not like we would stay there, [01:06:00] and stay talking, and have a conversation with them at all. Not at all. (audio cuts out) allowed to. You especially would not want us to have any contact with any of them ’cause you didn’t want us to get in trouble in case something would happen. They wouldn’t blame -JOSE JIMENEZ: What kind of trouble? 47 �JUANA JIMENEZ: Well, like if they would have any fights, or any stealing, or anything so they wouldn’t start saying, “Oh, they’re also part of a gang,” or whatever. We were never allowed to even associate with anything. And I remember one time there was a party, and one of your gang members picked me out to dance, and when they found out that you were -- I was your sister, right away he stopped dancing and took me back to sit down. JOSE JIMENEZ: But this was in the gang time? JUANA JIMENEZ: That was the gang group. JOSE JIMENEZ: That was the gang time. JUANA JIMENEZ: I remember that part. JOSE JIMENEZ: [01:07:00] I was missing for a few years, right? I had to go underground when it was a political group. Do you recall that? JUANA JIMENEZ: I remember when nobody knew where you were at. JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, so what happened? Because I think you made a video later, too, or something like that. You sent me a video that you made with the whole family. I mean I still have the video (inaudible). JUANA JIMENEZ: Of the whole family? JOSE JIMENEZ: You just put together like a family video and you sent it to me. From here. You were living (inaudible). JUANA JIMENEZ: From Caguas and stuff? JOSE JIMENEZ: Yeah. JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah. ’Cause you wanted to see some pictures and stuff and I did -- 48 �JOSE JIMENEZ: But that was after I came back. I was hiding. JUANA JIMENEZ: After you came back. After you came back. JOSE JIMENEZ: So where do you think I was? And where do you think people were? JUANA JIMENEZ: Well, I didn’t know where you were. You wouldn’t say anything. At first, I thought you were in jail somewhere. I thought, “Well, maybe he’s in jail, he doesn’t want no one to know where he’s at, [01:08:00] so just leave it alone.” I know mother would cry a lot because she didn’t know anything from you. I just kept saying, “Don’t worry. He’ll be fine. If something was wrong, we would hear something from you or somebody would say something.” My mom, she suffered a lot. JOSE JIMENEZ: Did the police ever come by the house after the Young Lords were political? JUANA JIMENEZ: If they did, I wasn’t around to see anything. JOSE JIMENEZ: Oh, you weren’t living there anymore? JUANA JIMENEZ: No. JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay ’cause you got remarried and that. JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, then I got remarried. Once I left Michael, I had a baby, and I kept thinking, “Well, this is not for me. And I’m not going to let this guy kill me or my baby.” So I just left him, and after a while I remarried. Not remarried [01:09:00] because I wasn’t married with Michael, but I got married with Willie. JOSE JIMENEZ: You got married with Willie right around that time. How did you meet Willie? 49 �JUANA JIMENEZ: I met Willie because since I was in the unwed mother’s home, my mom and my dad would go visit me, and Willie was my cousin’s (inaudible) friend. And since they were friends, they would go down in the car, driving down, and sometimes Willie would drive or (inaudible) would drive, they would drive ’em down to where I was at, and we met each other. I got tired of staying there, listening to girls cry because they didn’t want to leave their babies and their parents are making them leave their babies there. And I told my mom, I says, “Mom, I really want to go home. I’m tired of this. [01:10:00] I’m tired of hearing these girls cry. This is horrible.” And, “Do you think dad will let me come home?” “I don’t care what he says. I’m gonna pick you up right now.” And she got somebody and they went to pick me up. And I believe that was in March. The month was March, and the next day when my cousin came, he brought Willie also. And all I kept thinking was, “Oh, cute guy. Cute guy.” (laughs) JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, so now you’re with Willie and then you’re raising the kids. You were involved in different community stuff, no? I mean what kind of community stuff were you involved in? JUANA JIMENEZ: In which community? JOSE JIMENEZ: I’m wondering about with the scouts or something? What was that about? JUANA JIMENEZ: With the boy scouts, that’s when my oldest son, Joey, [01:11:00] he was a lot older -- well, he went to boy scouts from St. Joseph’s church here in Aurora. And then he just kept going, and we helped out a little bit. That wasn’t too bad. But we helped out more with boy scouts after we came back to Puerto 50 �Rico to live. And my youngest, Danny, he was with the boy scouts, and we did a lot of stuff there with them. JOSE JIMENEZ: What do you call your position? Didn’t you become a member of it? JUANA JIMENEZ: There, once, I was a secretary for them for just a little bit. And we were always just involved with it. If they had anything -- like for their 50-mile hike, we’d be walking with them. Or if they had camping, we’d be camping out with them. Of course, the parents on one side and the scouts on the other side. JOSE JIMENEZ: And this is in [01:12:00] Puerto Rico? JUANA JIMENEZ: This is in Puerto Rico. But in Aurora, no, Joey just went down to the boy scouts, but we weren’t that involved. And then I tried at one time to be with the cub scouts, but it really didn’t work out. I guess I didn’t know what I was doing really, so I just gave it up. It was very different so I didn’t really know what I was doing. JOSE JIMENEZ: Some of the stuff that the Young Lords were fighting for -- they were fighting against police brutality, they were fighting for self-determination for Puerto Rico, they were fighting for ex-offenders, they were fighting for free breakfast for children, like you said, the daycare center. How did you feel about those things? JUANA JIMENEZ: [01:13:00] Well, I thought that that was good that they were helping finally instead of being a gang. Instead of beating up on people, or stealing, or doing bad things, all of a sudden they changed and were -- they turned their whole -JOSE JIMENEZ: Did you see a change or were they just saying it? 51 �JUANA JIMENEZ: No, I did see a change. JOSE JIMENEZ: What kind of a -- JUANA JIMENEZ: You could see the change in the people. The way the people would talk about it -- more of the people around, that was around saying and talking about it. And I kept thinking, “Is it the gang they’re talking about?” Because I wasn’t sure about the organization and the gang part. To me, at that time, it was the same thing except I just kept thinking, “They’re just better. They’re not being bad anymore. They turned good.” (laughs) JOSE JIMENEZ: So you’re saying they turned good. [01:14:00] But you couldn’t see the difference that much. JUANA JIMENEZ: I saw a little difference but not too much because remember we were always inside. If people were talking, we were always taught not to get into conversations. Never. You were always behind, go to the room, go somewhere else. “We’re talking here. Can’t listen.” JOSE JIMENEZ: There was a community right there in Lincoln Park. Let’s say from Larrabee all the way to Racine, from North Avenue to Diversey. There was like a Puerto Rican community there, too. So have you been to Chicago lately? JUANA JIMENEZ: Have I been to Chicago lately? JOSE JIMENEZ: Yeah, when was the last time you were in Chicago? JUANA JIMENEZ: Last time I was in Chicago was last year, I believe. JOSE JIMENEZ: Have you seen that there’s -- at Lincoln Park, that neighborhood. JUANA JIMENEZ: I didn’t go down to Lincoln Park, around there. 52 �JOSE JIMENEZ: [01:15:00] Have you heard that there’s no more Puerto Ricans living there? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yes, I did hear. And the last time I went was many, many, many, many years back. We just kinda passed by just to see what the old neighborhood looked like. It looked nothing -- nothing. And I kept thinking, “Wow, it must be like rich people now or something,” because it didn’t look like it before. You would go before, the stairs -- like you just on there and there was no plant life or something. And now it’s like big old fences. JOSE JIMENEZ: Did you care that all those people moved out? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yes, I did care because it kinda bothered me. I kept thinking, “Wow, it’s not like that anymore.” It would have been nice to bring back memories about how it looked before. It looked too clean. (laughs) [01:16:00] I don’t know. JOSE JIMENEZ: But I mean a lot of Puerto Ricans moved out of there. JUANA JIMENEZ: A lot? I think everybody moved out. I don’t think there’s any of them in there. I really don’t know. I really can’t say if they are living there or not, but it didn’t really look like that. JOSE JIMENEZ: So how do you feel that they were kinda pushed out? JUANA JIMENEZ: Didn’t really like it because it seems like you’re pushing us away from things -- “Let somebody else come in because you guys can’t afford this place. Just by looking at you, you can’t afford this place.” And you feel bad about it. And I’ll give you an example. I went to Chicago once, and I went to a store, and I said, “Well, I want to get this.” And, “Well, this costs so and so.” 53 �“So? Like I don’t have money for it [01:17:00] because I’m a Puerto Rican or am a Latin person or something? I’m asking about it because I know I could afford it.” I was at that store because I knew I could afford whatever they had there, or whatever it was that I wanted to buy. You feel like they’re degrading you. JOSE JIMENEZ: This was where? Where was this at? JUANA JIMENEZ: This was -- oh, God. It was a women’s store. JOSE JIMENEZ: In Lincoln Park? JUANA JIMENEZ: No, not in Lincoln Park. Not in Lincoln Park. I can’t remember, but that wasn’t even that long ago either. And I just kept thinking -JOSE JIMENEZ: Well, this neighborhood changed, everybody moved away, and so - JUANA JIMENEZ: Everybody moved away. JOSE JIMENEZ: Was it a choice? Did they have any choice to make? JUANA JIMENEZ: I think they didn’t have a choice because they just kept raising the rent always. Kept raising the rent, kept raising the rent, and then we couldn’t afford it. So we would have to look for [01:18:00] somewhere else to live, you know? And then after they were raising the rent, the person that had their homes there, they were obligated to sell their homes to -- (phone rings). (break in audio) JOSE JIMENEZ: How do you feel because, you know, the Young Lords, they were a gang and then they changed. Then they wanted to help the community. But they were attacked by the government because they were also fighting against people being kicked out of their homes, displaced, like the city. So they were 54 �fighting with Mayor Daley and they were fighting the government because they wanted Puerto Rico to govern themselves whether you agree or not. But because of that -JUANA JIMENEZ: At that time -JOSE JIMENEZ: At that time what? JUANA JIMENEZ: At that time, to me, I really didn’t think anything of it because I had nothing to do with [01:19:00] political stuff. I just kept thinking, “Why does he keep attacking” -- I think they’re doing fine, politics or whatever. I’m never into anything of politics. Never because I don’t like politics. But now, you think back and you think, “Wow, why would they want Puerto Rico to govern itself?” Thinking, “Wow. Why would they want to go back to the stone ages?” You’re trying to move ahead, and Puerto Rico’s not moving ahead. It’s in a standstill, just like moving back a little bit -- inch by inch, but moving back just a little bit. They try, but they move back a little bit, and that’s all just government. JOSE JIMENEZ: But still, the Young Lords had a right to kinda -- JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, you had a right. JOSE JIMENEZ: -- make their choices. JUANA JIMENEZ: They had to make their choices and that’s their choice. JOSE JIMENEZ: But they were attacked real rough by the government. [01:20:00] In fact, remember Bruce Johnson got killed and all that? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yes. JOSE JIMENEZ: How do you feel about that time when you heard about that? 55 �JUANA JIMENEZ: First, I thought it was just a plan that the police themselves made up so that you guys could get in trouble because I kept thinking, “Why would they kill” -- because they were blaming you guys for doing that killing, or the organization or somebody in that organization for killing him. And I kept thinking, “How can anybody do that if he’s the one that’s helping these people? And the organization knows that he’s helping them, why would they kill him?” So I believe that, to me, it was just like a set up, and it was like the police themselves that did it or something there because never would I believe that it would be -even to this day, [01:21:00] I wouldn’t believe that it was anybody from the Young Lords. Not to kill the Reverend because he was the one helping the Young Lords there. Letting them use the church, letting them -- and everything. And I don’t think nobody would -JOSE JIMENEZ: Did you ever participate in any of the marches or anything? JUANA JIMENEZ: Never. We were never allowed to. Never allowed to. JOSE JIMENEZ: And most of the family didn’t agree with the Young Lords, did they? JUANA JIMENEZ: No. Not at all because they just kept thinking it was just a gang -“It’s a gang.” The organization to them was just like nothing. It was just a gang. JOSE JIMENEZ: So it was like the Puerto Ricans putting each other down, basically. JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, they were putting each other down. JOSE JIMENEZ: In other words, “They can’t make it, they’re just a gang.” JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah. JOSE JIMENEZ: Or, “They’re just a gang, they’re nothing.” 56 �JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, “They’re a gang.” Or, “They’re just doing that -- it’s just a set up. They’re trying to do it -- being good, doing good things for other people so [01:22:00] people can see that they’re doing nothing wrong, but they’re really a gang.” So the police wouldn’t blame the organization for anything. JOSE JIMENEZ: And did I ask you how many kids you had? JUANA JIMENEZ: No, you didn’t. I have four kids. JOSE JIMENEZ: What’s their names? JUANA JIMENEZ: My eldest is Joseph, and, of course, I named him after you. I don’t know why, but I did. (laughs) The next one was Sandy, then Margie -- about four years later, Margie came along. And after Margie, about eight years later, Danny came along. So four kids, three with Willie and one with -- the first one with -JOSE JIMENEZ: And now you got some grandkids, too? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yes, I have about six grandkids. I had eight and two of my grandkids are not with us anymore. They were babies. JOSE JIMENEZ: Sorry about that. JUANA JIMENEZ: [01:23:00] They were sick babies, but it’s fine. JOSE JIMENEZ: Anything that you want to add? Otherwise, we’ll just finish it up. JUANA JIMENEZ: I don’t know. I could say that now I’m happy. I keep telling my husband, “Now, I’m in Puerto Rico, but I’m dying -- I am dying to sell my home and leave to the states,” because I am tired of Puerto Rico. I am tired of Puerto Rico. JOSE JIMENEZ: How long have you been here? 57 �JUANA JIMENEZ: We’ve been here -- let me see. I’ve been here for about 26 -Danny’s 30 -- about 26 years. And that’s 26 years, all I could see is nothing really good for Puerto Rico and I’m tired of it. [01:24:00] You don’t get a job unless you have one of these family member or somebody -- like they say, you scratch my back, I scratch yours or whatever. (Spanish) [01:24:11], they say in Spanish, (Spanish) [01:24:14]. Someone in the political view so they can help you find a job. If not, you’re not gonna get a job here unless it’s in a store or something. But not at all. No jobs here at all. I’m tired of not having water. I’m tired of the light leaving whenever it feels like it and out for days. We have to live. We have to live. And I don’t like the cold weather, but if there was a place that I could stay that it was not expensive, I’d move out of here because I cannot -- I’m tired of this place. I’m tired of people [01:25:00] being so nosy. You’re too close to the family, too close to people next door. And at this age, you just want to relax. And the government is not getting any better. Not at all. It’s not gonna become a state. You either become a state -- the commonwealth, they don’t want to keep it as a commonwealth. Become a state, be independent, or something. And independence is not gonna work, let me tell you. It’s not gonna work. I think it would be a great idea if there was some way that there would be good jobs that they could do something. It’s not gonna work. Nobody really wants it independent. And being a state, we’re paying taxes anyway. JOSE JIMENEZ: How about like the Young Lords say? They’re not talking about independence, [01:26:00] they’re talking about people determining their own life, their own destiny. What do you think about that? 58 �JUANA JIMENEZ: People already determine their own destiny, their own life. People already do that. You don’t have to have anybody tell you. That was before -JOSE JIMENEZ: In Puerto Rico, people determine their own government. That’s what they mean, (inaudible). JUANA JIMENEZ: Oh, their own government? JOSE JIMENEZ: Yeah, people make decisions that affect their own government. For example, in Chicago, when they had the urban renewal and kicked everybody out, none of the Puerto Ricans were able to make a decision for their own neighborhood. JUANA JIMENEZ: Over there, no. At that time. JOSE JIMENEZ: So in Puerto Rico, it means the same thing. It means just like Puerto Ricans should have been allowed to make decisions about what type of neighborhood they wanted to live in, they need to be able to make a decision in terms of [01:27:00] what type of nation they need to be living in. How do you feel about that? JUANA JIMENEZ: I think everybody -- of course, you want to live in a nation -- let’s say Cuba, they move to Cuba. That’s the way I feel. JOSE JIMENEZ: So you feel that the Young Lords are more closer to Cuba. That’s what you’re saying? In their thinking? JUANA JIMENEZ: In their thinking. JOSE JIMENEZ: And that’s not good? JUANA JIMENEZ: And, also, like Santa Domingo. They’re thinking like that, too, because they want to be apart on their own, but, see, Cubans -- what I know a 59 �little bit of, I don’t know much -- but they don’t want help from the United States, they don’t want help from anybody, but on their own. And for the Dominican Republic, [01:28:00] they’re just a republic, but they’re on their own also. They just get a little bit of help. They don’t get a lot of help. But you look at both of them, they’re both really very poor places. And in Puerto Rico, nobody here is really, really poor. You see people in the streets asking for money and stuff because they want to be that way. You don’t really see people that are really, really, really poor unless you don’t ask for the help. The government usually helps you, but you have to ask for the help. And a lot of times, they’ll show them on TV -- “Oh, look at this poor old lady. Look at the way she’s living in her home.” But, of course, they give them the help and they use the money for other things instead of really helping themselves. I don’t know. [01:29:00] You have to look for help. JOSE JIMENEZ: So you’re saying the homeless, it’s all their fault, basically? JUANA JIMENEZ: No, I’m not saying -JOSE JIMENEZ: Yeah, I think it’s probably their fault if they’re drinking -- JUANA JIMENEZ: If they’re drinking and doing their stuff, but I don’t think it’s all their fault either because drinking is a sickness, and you need to get help from it. But if you don’t take the help, if you don’t want the help -- an example. There is a man I know down right on Route 129 he stands there by the light, and he goes like this so you can give him some money. We give him change, sometimes I give him a dollar or whatever. But I heard if you give him pennies, he throws it. A penny is money. One hundred of those pennies is gonna give you a dollar. 60 �That could get you a cup of coffee, [01:30:00] but he throws money away. He chooses not to take that. So he’s that way because he wants to be, because the government does help him. He does get help. He’ll ask for money for food, go down and sit and drink his coffee, or donut, or whatever, read his newspaper, and walk back to wherever he lives. Down the road or whatever. Pennies? He throws away. I would never throw away pennies. I’m sorry. That’s money. You choose what you want. And if you want to live that way, that’s the way you’re gonna live. If you don’t ask for the help, you’re not gonna get it. JOSE JIMENEZ: Do you also believe that -- and we’re just kind of -- ’cause we don’t want to get into the philosophy, we’re just trying to tell the history and stuff like that. So do you think the Young Lords [01:31:00] did anything to help the community at all or what do you think? It’s a loaded question. JUANA JIMENEZ: It is a loaded question. (laughs) JOSE JIMENEZ: So what do you think? Did they do anything or were they just worthless? JUANA JIMENEZ: I don’t think they were worthless because some of those people that I did see that -- even in the newspapers that you would see -- you would see pictures of them helping other people. And they probably didn’t help, let’s say, for many, many years or stay at the thing for many, many years because they didn’t -- other people wouldn’t let them. Like the government wouldn’t let them or the police wouldn’t let them. They were always trying to get them to separate and break everything apart. Let’s say the daycare center. They went in there and they tore everything out. The police went in there and tore everything out. 61 �And they would look for a way [01:32:00] so that -- you know, let’s say they looked for something wrong to say, “Okay, you’re not -- there’s a fire hazard here you have to close the place down because it is wrong. You don’t have this, you don’t have that.” They would always look for something. JOSE JIMENEZ: The building inspectors. They came to the daycare center to try to close it down. They did close it down. JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, they did close it down. JOSE JIMENEZ: So you felt that that was wrong? JUANA JIMENEZ: I thought that was wrong because you guys were doing something really good at that time. I thought it was really great. When they had that daycare center, I thought, “Oh, God. Thank God. Finally, something good is coming out of this.” I thought it was very unfair. Very unfair the way they would go hunting you guys down and treating you -JOSE JIMENEZ: [01:33:00] Hunting the Young Lords down? JUANA JIMENEZ: Yes. They would -JOSE JIMENEZ: The police was hunting them down? JUANA JIMENEZ: Wherever you guys would be, do anything good, they would find something negative about what you were doing, a lot of times. I remember one time walking down the street with my mom going -- I don’t know where we were going, but just walking down with her, and some guy came out, “Oh, you spics, go back to your home.” And, of course, me with my big mouth, “Why don’t you shut the mm out?” And my mom’s grabbing me, “Come on. Come on.” Well, I was learning to defend myself at that time. I was tired of being pushed around. 62 �Speaking of pushing around, let’s leave that. (laughs) I got pushed around sometimes till I got myself [01:34:00] defended by somebody in my brain. (laughs) JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay. Who pushed you around? JUANA JIMENEZ: You. (laughs) You did a lot of pushing around. You pushed Daisy a lot, and I would have to be there trying to defend her. I thought, “I can’t take this. I don’t mind if he’s hitting me, but not her.” Yeah, I had -JOSE JIMENEZ: I didn’t want to leave it at that point, but we’re gonna have to leave it there. JUANA JIMENEZ: Yeah, let’s leave it at that point. (laughter) It’s past. END OF VIDEO FILE 63 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/22e09bbc070228d6d1829942d05abe52.mp4 794fbfc364021e71b25841bcf3f8229e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Juana Jiménez vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Juana Jiménez es una hermana de José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. Nació en Minot, Massachusetts cerca de Concord donde su padre trabajo como tomatero para Andy Boy Farms en 1940. Aquí recogieron vegetables para la compañía de Campbell Soup. En 1951 la familia se cambio a Chicago para acercarse con familiares que vivían en La Clark. Juana creció en Lincoln Park Wicker Park. Cuando se embarazo, antes de tener esposo, la mandaron a una casa para mujeres jóvenes que era atendida por monjas Católicas. Aquí es donde ella desarrollo su espirituelidad y todavía sigue muy dedicada en su comunida igual que ayudando los equipos de Béisbol y boliche en que esta su esposo y corriendo el grupo de Boy Scout para sus hijos y los del vecindario. Ahora vive en Camuy, Puerto Rico. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Jimenez_Juana Title A name given to the resource Juana “Jenny” Jiménez video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, Juana Description An account of the resource Juana “Jenny” Jiménez is one of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez’s sisters. She was born while her father, Antonio, worked as a seasonal farm laborer, or tomatero, in the late 1940s for Andy Boy Farms at a migrant camp in Minot, Massachusetts near Concord. They picked vegetables primarily for the Campbell Soup Company. In 1951 the family moved to Chicago to be closer to other relatives who had been living in La Clark since the late 1940s. Jenny grew up in Lincoln Park and in Wicker Park. When she became pregnant, but was unmarried, she was placed temporarily in a juvenile home for girls run by Catholic nuns. It is there that Jenny developed her spirituality and she remains very active in her community to this day, including working on behalf of her husband’s baseball and bowling leagues and running a Boy Scout troop to support her own and other neighborhood children in Puerto Rico. She now lives in Camuy, Puerto Rico. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-10 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/0e67381514a680bbff71de5e4eb6115a.pdf 3a57be96d0ff015e74585f129963741c PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Juan Jiménez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 6/25/2012 Biography and Description Juan Jiménez is the younger brother of Antonio “Maloco” Jiménez and currently lives in Barrio San Salvador of Caguas, Puerto Rico, in the secluded road behind the tienda, or store, of the Trinidads. His home is newly built and sits on cement blocks like stilts, carved right into the hill but sitting halfway on air. It is difficult to turn your car around the dead end road as there are more hills to the other side. And he has a beautiful view of the center of San Salvador’s Monte Peluche, a tall, rocky mountain covered with vegetation. It is his section of paradise and what Mr. Jiménez worked for all his life when he lived in Chicago’s Lincoln Park neighborhood, on La Armitage. Mr. Jiménez is content, still raising his collegeaged daughter. His son is a proud Illinois State trooper. Mr. Jiménez was part of Council Number 9 of the Caballeros de San Juan and Damas de María at St. Teresa’s Church on Kenmore and Armitage. He played well and was a proud member of their softball team. It instilled character in the players, kept the community stable, and kept the youth away from hard drugs and off the streets. Each team had their own chanting cheerleaders, coaches, and managers. It was also good for small entrepreneurs who sold pasteles and pastelillos, rice and bean dinners, and T- shirts and flags and banners. The Catholic softball leagues provided the Puerto Rican version of the college town football game for the entire Puerto Rican family. It kept them united and parents knew at all times where they could find their children. It was a cost effective, after school fun that today would have eliminated the few existing after school programs. �And it was a true community program that did not have to be funded by the federal government or by city hall. But the leagues and the Caballeros and the Damas were being weakened and destroyed by discriminatory plans to “cleanse for profit” the lakefront and near downtown areas of Puerto Ricans, other minorities and the poor. And along with their displacement and destruction of neighborhood networks and the disenfranchisement of Puerto Rican and poor voters, breeding grounds for today’s super gangs were created. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/df06c938618b52fad12039221f98d8b1.mp4 046695338093175c3a4cf9b0f6cf6b62 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Juan Jiménez vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 1 Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Jimenez_Juan_1 Title A name given to the resource Juan Jiménez video interview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, Juan Description An account of the resource Juan Jiménez is the younger brother of Antonio “Maloco” Jiménez and currently lives in Barrio San Salvador of Caguas, Puerto Rico, in the secluded road behind the tienda, or store, of the Trinidads. His home is newly built and sits on cement blocks like stilts, carved right into the hill but sitting halfway on air. It is difficult to turn your car around the dead end road as there are more hills to the other side. And he has a beautiful view of the center of San Salvador’s Monte Peluche, a tall, rocky mountain covered with vegetation. It is his section of paradise and what Mr. Jiménez worked for all his life when he lived in Chicago’s Lincoln Park neighborhood, on La Armitage. Mr. Jiménez is content, still raising his college-aged daughter. His son is a proud Illinois State trooper. Mr. Jiménez was part of Council Number 9 of the Caballeros de San Juan and Damas de María at St. Teresa’s Church on Kenmore and Armitage. He played well and was a proud member of their softball team. It instilled character in the players, kept the community stable, and kept the youth away from hard drugs and off the streets. Each team had their own chanting cheerleaders, coaches, and managers. It was also good for small entrepreneurs who sold pasteles and pastelillos, rice and bean dinners, and T- shirts and flags and banners. The Catholic softball leagues provided the Puerto Rican version of the college town football game for the entire Puerto Rican family. It kept them united and parents knew at all times where they could find their children. It was a cost effective, after school fun that today would have eliminated the few existing after school programs. And it was a true community program that did not have to be funded by the federal government or by city hall. But the leagues and the Caballeros and the Damas were being weakened and destroyed by discriminatory plans to “cleanse for profit” the lakefront and near downtown areas of Puerto Ricans, other minorities and the poor. And along with their displacement and destruction of neighborhood networks and the disenfranchisement of Puerto Rican and poor voters, breeding grounds for today’s super gangs were created. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-06-25 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/4c3bf5e1e33c7819d42bcf28fa55154a.pdf 723307eca2555bbeff1f0f266f28c814 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/14/2012 Runtime: 00:28:27 Biography and Description Oral history and interview of Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on March 15, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban �renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript yl_Jimenez_Jose_2 Q1: Yeah, it is kinda low. JOSE JIMENEZ: It is low. Q2: Okay. Could you state your name? JJ: Yeah. It’s José Jiménez, born 1948. Q2: Good. (inaudible). Q1: [And you were?] -- JJ: Is this one on? Is this one on? (inaudible) [press?] that button. Q1: Yes, it is on. JJ: Okay, the red button -- Q1: And the voice is going. I can see the audio. JJ: Okay. Q1: Okay. Q2: Okay. I’d heard a report from a former Young Lord about the killing of a pastor in the DePaul University area. [If you could?] tell me what you know about it. JJ: Yeah. Reverend Bruce Johnson and Eugenia Johnson, his wife, were -- he was found stabbed seventeen times, and his wife nine times. They tried to make it look like it was [00:01:00] a gang that did it because we had been in his church, at People’s Church. Reverend Bruce Johnson was a member of the Northside Cooperative Ministry, which was a coalition of ministers that were supporting the Young Lords. His congregation were Cuban exiles that were against us having murals on the wall, but, I mean -- and they were against us being in the church. 1 �We were also having problems with the local mafia at the time, and also -because we were picketing. They ran the real estate offices that were displacing the Puerto Rican community of Lincoln Park. Q2: What was the address of this church? JJ: It was 834 West Armitage. When we took over the church, he prevented the police from coming into the church, where the congregation was trying to get us arrested, [00:02:00] so we were able to work with him, and we started saying, “Well, this is not really a takeover. We’re gonna work together.” And, together, we renamed it People’s Church. We came up with buttons and everything to go along with that. We set up the first free community daycare center in Chicago. We set up the Ramón Emeterio Betances Health Clinic, and also a dental clinic in the basement. We also had a Puerto Rican Cultural Center in the church. So, we did a lot of work, and he supported us. He was under attack. They fined the church 200 dollars a day every time it remained open, so he was going under that attack, and the local alderman, Alderman Barr McCutcheon, had organized a group called -- something about [00:03:00] uniting the do-gooders, basically, it was called, but they were sending letters to the Methodist bishop to try to get him out of there. This is just prior to when he was killed. Of course, we had -- the police were parked, the [Red Squad?] was parked, like, 24 hours a day in front of the church. There were people being arrested for wearing the Young Lords buttons or arrested for disorderly conduct, harassed. They had the stop-and-frisk law, so they would stop and frisk them any time they wanted to. So, he was under attack, basically, before that happened. On the week that it happened, I 2 �had been in the county jail because of -- I had, like, 18 cases pending. And so, I would have to go to court, and, sometimes, [00:04:00] it was three courtrooms at the same time. And so, one judge would get angry and give me another charge for bond jumping because I wasn’t in his courtroom when I had to be in three at the same time. So, I mean, that was me. I was the head of the group, the Young Lords, but other members were also going through repression, similar repression, at the same time. So, all that was going on, and this was 30 days before Fred Hampton and Mark Clark were killed, so this was right around that time. They had announced one time that we had a cache of weapons inside the church. It was announced on ABC News, on the national news. Well, we didn’t have any weapons. I mean, we had to set up, like, a [vigil?] because we knew that a raid was coming to the church ’cause the Panthers had been raided three times. They had had three shootouts [00:05:00] with the police or -- you know, the police started shooting at them, basically. It’s not that they were having shootouts, but the police were shooting into their offices and that. So, that’s the kind of climate that existed at that time. Our main, primary concern at that time was that our neighborhood was being displaced, that they wanted to create an inner city suburb in Lincoln Park. And so, you know, like, some people use the term gentrification. To us, that’s like cookies and milk. It’s not really reflective of what was going on. What was going on was that these were -- was what they did to the indigenous people, where they took their land for [beads?], and that’s what really was going on. The Latino community was being ripped off of prime real estate because we were so close to downtown and so close [00:06:00] to the 3 �lakefront, so this was prime land, which -- we were not aware of it. We were new immigrants coming into Chicago since the ’50s, since the late ’40s and ’50s, so we were buying houses cheap, like 15,000, 24,000, that are, today, being sold for a million dollars. So, I mean, that’s why I’m saying gentrification is a sweet term to what they actually did there. It was a rip-off, basically. But Reverend Bruce Johnson and Eugenia Johnson were supporting us. Q2: Can you tell me anything about them? How old were they? JJ: Well, they were young. They were young ministers. I don’t really know them that well. They were young ministers. They were trying to work with the poor at that time. Maybe a little naive, a little idealistic, [00:07:00] naive, there, but we had respect for them. They did have our respect. He used to teach Puerto Rican history to some of the gang members that -- we would hang around in front of the church before we became political. Some of us hung around in front of the church, so some of us already knew him, so he would teach Puerto Rican history, which we didn’t get in any school. So, he was actually trying to awaken us to the conditions that were going on at that time. His church was also -- they were renting space to the welfare department (inaudible), so the people in the neighborhood would go there to pick up their food stamps, or their cheese, or whatever the welfare department was giving out. But, as soon as urban renewal came to Lincoln Park, that was the first place that was moved, so it became an empty church. It wasn’t being utilized, and that’s one of the reasons that [00:08:00] the Young Lords were meeting for about four or five months prior to the takeover. We were meeting, and we were being frustrated because the 4 �congregation didn’t want us in there, even though we offered to pay them money, to raise money, to pay to help pay the rent, just like the city had had the welfare department (inaudible). We offered to pay them some money, [some rental space?], but they said no, and especially when they heard that we were connected with the Black Panther Party, they didn’t want anything to do with us there. What happened [on the?] takeover was -- I remember standing outside after meeting with Reverend Bruce Johnson, and one of the members of the Young Lords signaled to me that, you know, we got the church. The church is taken over. I wasn’t even aware of it. This was something that was spontaneous, and they had decided to do it because we had just come from [00:09:00] the takeover of McCormick Theological Seminary, where we had stayed there for a week and won all of our demands, including 601,000 dollars to be invested in low-income housing. So, we even had our architect draw up plans, and we had a project. So, we had won a victory there, and, now, we were coming, and these people from the Young Lords, on their own, basically, took it over, and they’re signaling to me, “We have it. We have the church.” So, right after that, soon after that, the congregation called the police, and we’re trying to talk to each other, myself and Reverend Bruce Johnson, about -- this is gonna be a bloodshed here if the police try to enter the church. So, we were trying to calm things down, and that’s what he did. He basically told the police that he gave us permission to be in the church while the congregation is [00:10:00] saying, “No, they can’t be there. What are you doing?” So, you know, clearly, they were angry with their own pastor at the time. So, he was getting a lot of enemies 5 �because he was working with Puerto Ricans at that time. And so, I believe that’s why they -- you know, to us, he was our pastor. The reporters asked me, “Are you going to allow the church to have service?” The very next day after we had taken it over. And we said, “We’re not here to disrupt anything from the church, and, in fact, we’re gonna be at the service ourselves.” So, we had respect for them and the church. A lot of the Young Lords are -- a lot of Latinos are Catholic, and we kind of respect the church, even though they were -- he’s a United Methodist minister, but we respected any church at that time. And so, our concern for the takeover of the church was [00:11:00] more -- we’re trying to stop displacement of our people, and we’re trying to talk about community rights, you know, because all the decisions that were made in Lincoln Park were not done with us. In fact, that was really our primary concern. We’re not against improving the community, but we just wanted a voice in it. It was our neighborhood, and they just came in and took it over physically because a lot of - the people were evicted by sheriffs. They were evicted by the police. At that time in Lincoln Park, where you don’t see that today, I mean, you would walk around and see people’s furnitures on the sidewalk, where they were evicted because the rents went from -- I know, myself, personally, we paid 80 dollars a month rent one month, and the next month, it was 400. So, I mean, this is what was going on all over [00:12:00] Lincoln Park to a lot of families and that, but that was our main concern at that time. And then, we also learned -- because we joined with the Black Panther Party and the Rainbow Coalition, we began to learn about the programs, and we set up a free breakfast for children program, a clinic, 6 �some other programs in the church and that. And so, we had some other ideas from the Panthers, but our concern, instead of the police, was more housingrelated, and, today, it’s been brought up more like with the Occupy movement, the Wall Street movement. [At that time?], but it was more reflective in terms of the neighborhood at that time. Q2: What government agencies were involved in either keeping tabs on you or harassing or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? JJ: They were trying to encircle us to destroy us, I guess. You had this regular [00:13:00] Chicago police. They were against us, that were keeping tabs on us. You had the Alderman Barr McCutcheon, and the UPTIGD. That’s the name of the group. United People to Inform Good Doers. UPTIGD. So, they had an organization. They were keeping tabs on us. The local mafia, we had picketed several times, so they didn’t get along with us too well. You had the Red Squad. They had a car parked 24 hours a day in front of the church. They would literally change shifts there. You know, you would see them change the shift. That car was there 24 hours a day. And then, in the neighborhood, you had the Gang Intelligence Unit because we had been a former gang, so they had files on us, and they had people checking us out. We, later on, found out that the Panthers in Chicago were being investigated by [00:14:00] COINTELPRO, so that meant that anybody part of the Rainbow Coalition was also being investigated. I mean, they kept very good records. We had congressional committees that were set up to investigate the Black Panthers, and the Young Lords, and all that. We, later on, were reading some of their documents and that. So, you had quite a few 7 �people -- well, and then, Mayor Daley called the War on Gangs. And so, now, you have the regular precinct organization that were spreading rumor campaigns about the Young Lords to try to disrupt us, but on the other side of the coin is that, because we were former gang members of that neighborhood -- our parents grew up there in that neighborhood, we grew up there -- we had a very tight connection to the community, and that’s why it was difficult. That’s why they needed all these -- the precinct captains [00:15:00] and everybody else to try to discredit us. When we were growing up, I remember being in altar boy at St. Michael’s. Our parents were involved in the church there. They had an organization called the Caballeros de San Juan or Knights of St. John and the Damas de María, the Daughters of Mary. Their whole concern was just to get Spanish Mass, and yet, if you look at a lot of the churches where they got Spanish Mass, they got it, but it was usually kept in a hall. They didn’t have it in the regular chapel, so there was a prejudice where people -- the old-timers didn’t want these new Puerto Ricans coming in, so they said, “Okay, you can have Mass, but not in the regular chapel,” although they said later that they preferred that. In the oral histories that I’m doing, some clearly say that, no, they did not want us there [00:16:00] [in the thing?]. So, we had seen what our parents had done, but, to us, they were more [docile?]. They knew there was discrimination because, when they went to rent apartments, they would say, “No dogs allowed.” You know, they were telling them, “We don’t rent to Puerto Ricans,” or, “No dogs allowed,” or whatever. That kind of attitude. And some of our parents were beaten up by the white gangs at that time in that neighborhood, the Anglo gangs, 8 �the greaser gangs that we were talking about earlier, that we fought later. But, of course, we were all kicked out, so, you know, we later joined together. So, it was a community. It was basically a community. Our parents were very good organizers. They organized the softball teams. The first Puerto Rican Parade came out of the Lincoln Park neighborhood. [00:17:00] So, all the first Puerto Rican businesses in Chicago came out of there, out of the Lincoln Park neighborhood. So, this was a broad community that we became the representatives of and the leaders in fighting back Mayor Daley. I mean, we were fighting Mayor Daley directly, and even his own people don’t fight him. I mean, but we were fighting -- so, we got scapegoated. We took a lot of [hits?] for that. We eventually ended up in the underground. When I had to serve -- the first of my cases was a year. That was the maximum that they could give me for -- they said I took 23 dollars’ worth of lumber for the daycare center or whatever, but I actually pleaded guilty to that, but the other cases that I pleaded not guilty, we negotiated for them. They threw them out of court and that, but there [00:18:00] were a total of 18 felony counts on me at that time. But, anyway, I knew that they were trying to destroy the group, so I didn’t go to court. I did jump bail then, and I went underground for about two and a half years. We organized a underground training school for new leaders. And then, we came back, and I began [doing a year?] -- we came back on the exact date of the memorial to Fred Hampton and Mark Clark, on December 4, 1972. I turned myself in then because I felt that I needed to -- we wanted to organize. Some people saw me in 9 �Cuba, [they thought I was?] in Cuba, but I wanted to continue organizing. We wanted to keep the Young Lords alive at that time for our community. Q2: Well, the FBI has been very focused on Puerto Rican nationalism and people [00:19:00] who want the status of Puerto Rico changed to either a state or independent country. Was that tied to the Young Lords (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? JJ: Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. We saw urban renewal -- we connected that to the issue of self-determination for Puerto Rico. So, we held the first demonstrations in Chicago. There had been demonstrations in New York, but, I mean, we held the biggest demonstrations and the first ones in the city of Chicago, supporting self-determination for Puerto Rico, and we connected that to this -- we would tell our people, “You see what they did here in Lincoln Park? That’s exactly what they’re gonna do in Puerto Rico. They’re gonna come in with businesses, and flowers, and everything else, and beautify the country with the only purpose of continuing their colonialism, continuing to take it over even more.” And today, [00:20:00] this year, they were talking about the plebiscite and trying to make it a state. Every time the republican governor goes there, that’s what happens. So, no, that was our major issue, was the self-determination for Puerto Rico, but we had -- we started because of the urban renewal. That’s what got us -- we could see that clearly because we were right there in Lincoln Park, and we saw what was going on. Q2: Do you have any idea who killed that pastor and his wife? 10 �JJ: Well, I mean, we don’t know who killed him. I mean, we think it’s the government, but, I mean, we don’t have any proof, but he had enemies, like I said, the alderman. At DePaul University, there are letters that were being sent to the bishop by the alderman and the UPTIGD organization, demanding that the United Methodist Church kick him out and the Young Lords from the church. [00:21:00] The local mafia that we were picketing in the neighborhood -- when I said local mafia, they ran the numbers, and I know they was a local mafia ’cause my father used to sell the numbers and turn in the receipts to them, so it’s not like we didn’t know. Everybody in the neighborhood knew they were involved with the numbers, and, now, they were also involved in real estate. They had three real estate offices on the same block, so we know that there was a local mafia. We didn’t bother them. We weren’t against them. It’s said that they had put a submachine gun on a Puerto Rican store owner, and we wanted that corrected. We didn’t want that Puerto Rican business owner disrespected like that, and that’s why we picketed them, but they looked at us -- since we were young, they probably blamed Reverend Bruce Johnson because he was the pastor at the church, and he allowed us to be at the church, and that’s why they were angry with him. [00:22:00] So, you had that, and then you had the police. I mean, the Red Squad, clearly. You had COINTELPRO that, 30 days later, killed Fred Hampton and Mark Clark. They were against us. By being against us, they were against him. So -- Q2: But the Cuban emigres, you mentioned them. Cubans? 11 �JJ: Right, also, yeah, the Cuban -- they had just come from Cuba, and they were totally anti-Castro, and a lot of them had been connected with the CIA in the Bay of Pigs Invasion. You know, some of the Cubans that were there at that church had been involved in the Bay of Pigs Invasion. We knew of that ’cause they had talked about it. And so, they could have been connected with the CIA, with that group -- you know, the CIA recruits gang members. They recruit killers, murderers. They give them breaks, and that’s who their cadre is. [00:23:00] So, we’re thinking that they were part of the cadre of the CIA. They were there. So, that was another group, and, again, we had the Gang Intelligence, the Red Squad. There were a lot of enemies. And then, you had groups, [clear?] white groups that were racist. I mean, these were racist groups, organizations, that were also writing letters at that time to the pastor, and I was getting pictures, pornographic pictures of men having sex with other men in my mail every day. I got that for, like, six months. Somebody was just sending me that. It was a way of harassment. I don’t know if it was coming from the Red Squad, or the police, or whatever, but that’s just one example. Of course, all the times that we were picked up just for wearing the button and harassed. They would come [00:24:00] on the street with a megaphone, out loud, and, “Cha-Cha this,” and, “You punks,” and all that. This is the police, you know, so that the -- they would stop and frisk us when they saw the community, a lot of people in that street, so that the people would look at us as criminals because we’re being arrested by the police or stopped and frisked by the police. And then, the precinct captains, you know, they were clearly telling people that we were communists, that we were with 12 �Castro, we were communist, that kind of stuff. And it didn’t help the fact that we had Che Guevara on the mural on the wall of the church. We painted that. We had Don Pedro Albizu Campos, who was the leader of the Nationalist Party in Puerto Rico and fought for independence. We had Lolita Lebrón, who was one of the nationalists that went [00:25:00] to Blair House in the ’50s. We had her photo up there. We had Adelita, who was a Mexican woman, revolutionary woman. We had Emiliano Zapata on the wall. All this stuff was on the wall outside after we took over the church. It was painted on the wall. So, as you could see, there were -- the congregation would be angry about that, or other people in the community would be, including Puerto Ricans. Not just Cubans would be angry that we would have that, but we didn’t think twice about it. These were our heroes. We didn’t have any heroes, so these became our heroes. There was a lot of discussion in the neighborhood of were the Young Lords -- are they doing good things or bad things? So, you know, we were definitely talked about in the community, so there was some controversy in the neighborhood. Q2: How strong of an area was this Puerto Rican concentration? JJ: We’re talking about from North Avenue to Diversey, Lincoln [00:26:00] Park, from Racine to about Clark Street. So, the lakefront was always the [goalpost?], but the mid-section of Lincoln Park was the Puerto Rican area that was displaced. You know, you’re talking about 65,000 people that were displaced. A good 30 percent of them were Puerto Ricans (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). Q2: [Where did they go?]? In Chicago? 13 �JJ: No, in Lincoln Park. In Lincoln Park. Now, today, it’s sort of like what the Japanese -- they were put in internship [sic] camps, and we were kinda doing the same thing with the research project. We’re trying to document that community, but it’s not just for that community ’cause we’re concerned about -- today, it’s in Humboldt Park. That’s being displaced. Pilsen, the Mexican community on Pilsen was being displaced. So, we’re concerned -- New York, other cities. They’re being displaced. The whole Occupy Wall Street movement that talks [00:27:00] about that housing displacement -- today, they were talking about homelessness. Well, it comes out of that displacement era that we were involved in. And so, people need to connect the dots. We’re trying to connect the dots. Q2: Okay. I’m out of (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JJ: Okay. Q2: Thank you. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). You gave me a lot of good information. I have to get your contact info so we can. Q1: Well, I have one great horoscope, which is just what I said in the interview. JJ: What’s it say? What’s your sign? I’m glad that’s not on the interview. What’s your sign? Q1: I’m a double Capricorn with Aquarius rising. JJ: Oh, okay. Q1: And I don’t really know what that means, but I have a strong stomach. Here’s what it said, though. It said, “Capricorn -- a change of locations will [00:28:00] help you determine your next move.” JJ: Okay. 14 �Q1: “Visualize what you want and begin the process of turning a dream into a reality. Refrain from being impulsive. Time is on your side.” JJ: Okay. P3: I say you need to cut that out and put that on your refrigerator. JJ: Yeah, [that would be good?]. Q1: It’s kinda what I said at the end, right? P3: Yeah. Yeah. Q1: I said, “Yeah, I gotta finish up some stuff, and -- END OF VIDEO FILE 15 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/18c866a914e1b2f5351e1fbd60a13863.mp4 38ee91c6402e64e0309efc16ae75b5d5 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Jose Jimenez vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 2 Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, entrevistado en 7/14/2012 sobre los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Jimenez_Jose_2 Title A name given to the resource Jose Jimenez video interview and transcript,interview 2 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jimenez, Jose Description An account of the resource Oral history of Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, interviewed on 7/14/2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-14 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d2fafae31a1865622f9098c49424e475.pdf 0aa45ed4e8309475f3d307b104fd8a68 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/15/2012 Runtime: 01:14:00 Biography and Description Oral history and interview of Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on March 15, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban �renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript Jimenez_Jose_1 Q1: All right. First off, if you wouldn’t mind just introducing yourself and telling us where you’re from. JOSE JIMENEZ: I’m José Jiménez, Cha-Cha Jiménez, from the Young Lords, founder of the Young Lords organization. Q1: Can you tell us a little bit about the Young Lords? JJ: Well, the Young Lords were a neighborhood youth group in Lincoln Park, Chicago back in the ’60s and ’70s, and then, late ’60s, 1968, we transformed ourselves into a human rights movement for self-determination for Puerto Rico and for neighborhood control. We were in the middle of -- the neighborhood was being displaced by the city that wanted to expand downtown and clean up the Lakefront area, which is where we were located at the [00:01:00] time. So, we were kinda caught in the middle by accident, and we were just trying to defend our hood. We looked at it like that. Although the majority of the people thought it was a good idea to rehab the housing, we just felt that they were taking away our community from us. So, those things, and the things that were going on in the country at that time -- the anti-war movement. There was, the late ’60s, the whole revolution movement, and it happened right there in Lincoln Park also with the Democratic Convention. And so, all those things together and what was going on in Puerto Rico, our people were trying to fight for self-determination 1 �there, all those things together contributed to our development into a human rights group. Q1: What was it originally that drew you to the Young Lords? JJ: [00:02:00] As the gang or as a political --? Q1: Well, initially. So, when it was still, first, a gang. JJ: Well, you know, when we first became a gang, there was several things that were going on. We had just got displaced from the neighborhood that Puerto Ricans called La Clark on Chicago Avenue and LaSalle -- Chicago Avenue and Clark. And so, we had just been displaced and pushed into the Lincoln Park neighborhood. The Lincoln Park neighborhood was an ethnic community. It was a very segregated community, but segregated by -- you know, Polish [were two or three blocks away?], we’d see Polish people, or Italian people, or German people, Gypsies, hillbillies, and Puerto Ricans that were coming in. And so, we were the new kids on the block at that [00:03:00] time, and we were being harassed by the other gangs that existed. At that time, the gangs were not like the gangs of today. Those were more territorial gangs, and based on culture and ethnicity. And so, we started getting robbed, you know, lunch money taken away from us. We started getting chased from school, and we started growing. There were more Puerto Ricans starting to move in. So, as we expanded, we started thinking about protection for ourselves. And so, the Young Lords, there were already some social clubs that were Puerto Rican that had been connected with the church, or individuals organized, like, sports leagues and that. They were older than we were. We were the younger [00:04:00] ones. And so, they were 2 �concerned more with playing softball and things like that, and then, later on, they turned into gangs, but we started -- from the very beginning, we wanted to look for territory. You know, we just wanted to have some kind of say-so in our area. So, we were going to other neighborhoods, and we would pick fights with people just to get a reputation. So, we’d go into an Italian neighborhood, hillbilly neighborhood, Irish neighborhood, and just taunt people until we were fighting with them. And then, if we won, then we could brag about that at the school that most of us were going to, Waller High School at the time, or [Arnold?] Elementary. So, [00:05:00] basically, that’s how we began. Again, we’re being harassed by other people that were more organized. They already had gangs. And so, we saw a need to begin our own gang for protection, and, you know, some of us even saw our parents beaten up, our uncles and fathers beaten up also, ’cause they were young too. I mean, they were in their twenties, early twenties, and that -- maybe up to thirties. It was just a young community at that time, and we were kinda breaking ground, and the kids saw a lot of things that were going on. Like I said, we were being chased around. And so, that’s how we originated as a gang, for protection and for recognition, and we went like that till the community became primarily Puerto Rican [00:06:00] at the time. People just kept move-- but that was a natural movement, I guess, that took place, where, later on, it was more done with the city and with the urban renewal programs, and, you know, was unnatural at that time. And, in fact, not only Puerto Ricans were evicted, but Italians, Irish, and Germans, all the people that 3 �we were going to school with at the time that we were fighting. We, later on, came together to try to defend the community from city hall. Q1: Do you want to move on or?(inaudible)? JJ: Probably going into the political stuff now. Q1: [00:07:00] ’Cause I wanted to touch on -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- Q1: -- a little more -- JJ: -- the gang. Q1: -- how -- just, I mean, kind of the idea that you felt you had to defend yourself to have just a better quality of life. Like -- JJ: Well, we -- Q1: -- ’cause I know, for you, you were saying that there was a changing point, where you realized that fighting wasn’t so much the answer, and you had to search something else out. I mean -- JJ: Well, you know, we were looking -- we originally began like that, like a gang, but, as time changed and the country was changing also, we began, also, to experience -- that was just simple prejudice, where we didn’t even look at it as prejudice. We looked at it more like one gang against another gang, but, in a way, it was subtle, you know. [00:08:00] But our parents were experiencing discrimination. I remember running home. My mother wanted to find an apartment, and I had talked to an Italian family, and they said, “We have an empty apartment,” and I ran home and told my mom, “Hey, there’s an apartment over here, not too far,” and she was all excited, and got dressed, and everything, 4 �and we went to see the Italian family, and, when they saw my mother, they said, “We don’t have any apartments.” To me, being light-skinned, that kind of opened up my eyes a little bit more, that I knew something was fishy, that something was funny there. It happened where our parents were like pilgrims, you know, moving into Chicago from Puerto Rico and being -- in Puerto Rico, like [00:09:00] 97 percent of the people were Catholic. And so, they’re coming into Chicago, and they see that some of the youth are going into gangs, and some of the parents also are having problems with alcohol or whatever. And so, they come together as a church, as a Catholic church, to try to change those things, to try to improve the community, to develop the community. And so, they come together, but then, they go into the Catholic church, and the Catholic church is saying, “We’ll give you space. We’ll give you --” All they wanted was Spanish Mass, Mass to be celebrated in Spanish. They said, “Well, we’ll give you Spanish Mass, but you have to do it in the hall. You can’t do it at the regular church because some of the people there don’t want you there.” But, you know, our parents didn’t -- they were not concerned with that. I mean, later on is when we found this out. [00:10:00] They were more concerned with Spanish Mass. So, they had to organize. They had to go door-to-door in Lincoln Park, and they would do Rosaries in different people’s homes. They organized themselves. They had retreats, church retreats. They formed the Caballeros de San Juan and the Damas de María, Daughters of Mary. So, it was like the Knights of Columbus, that type of organization, so they began to form organization. They form a credit union. They had an annual play of the Crucifixion of Jesus that they participated 5 �in. They had dances. You know, so, they involved the family. And very good dances, very well organized. Dinners, annual dinners that they had. They had picnics, where they would -- 10 to [00:11:00] 15 busloads would go to Oconomowoc, Wisconsin on picnics and that -- or to Libertyville, Illinois. So, our parents began to organize, and Lincoln Park became a barrio or a community, a Latino community. It was one of the first Puerto Rican communities in Chicago, well organized -- council number three, even though they were -- council number three ’cause there was -- council number one was on 63rd Street, and council number two was Holy Name Cathedral, where we had just been displaced from. So, they became well organized, a community. They cared for the youth. When the youth were getting in trouble, they started -- hey, you know, we can have dances, and make money, and still work with our children. So, they didn’t depend on the city. There was no political power [00:12:00] at the time. They created their own political power, their own base. In fact, the first Puerto Rican Parade Committee or first Puerto Rican Parade in Chicago came from Lincoln Park, from that community. There was a lot of bands at that time, youth bands, orchestras, that were organized in Lincoln Park -- bilingual. Some were primarily in Spanish, Spanish music, and some were the Motown type of music at that time, but that originated, again, in Lincoln Park and spread later. So, you know, we see this community. We grew up with that. We participated with our parents. You know, we went to their Rosaries, to the funerals, to the baptisms. Some of us were confirmed. Our parents had catechism classes. My mother had catechism classes [00:13:00] in our living room. That’s what I mean. We were 6 �like pilgrims at the time. And so, we see a community being organized, a community beginning to make a name for itself, a community that is becoming more stable, and, all of a sudden, the city of Chicago decides that they need that area. It’s prime real estate. It’s 15 minutes from the Loop downtown. It’s like five minutes from Lake Michigan, and lakefront property is prime real estate. Near downtown property is prime real estate, and that’s where we were at. We were located there because, when we first came to the city, many of our people were -- they used to joke around, called “grabando discos.” “Grabando discos” means making records. What they meant by that was that they were washing [00:14:00] dishes. So, that was their occupation. So, they were making records by washing dishes. So, meaning by that that many of the Puerto Ricans that came to Chicago at that time, in the ’50s and ’60s, were working downtown at the hotels, you know, some as maids for some of the rich people that lived near downtown, personal maids and that. But a community arose from that, and the city wanted that land, wanted to expand downtown, wanted these -- there was what they called at that time white flight to the suburbs. Many people were afraid of the Puerto Ricans ’cause they were new. They were odd to them and that. So, they wanted to flee to the suburbs to get away from Blacks and from Latinos at that time, and from poor whites, [00:15:00] you know, [or hillbillies running around there also?], and people didn’t want to be around poor people, basically. In fact, it was more income-oriented that was the problem, but, in a way, if you go today, what you see is it’s segregated. There is no integration. It’s primarily white, and I’m light-skinned myself, but it’s primarily white people with money that 7 �live in that community. And so, the poor have been wiped out. You can count them on the fingers of your hand, the poor that live in Lincoln Park. Of course, there’s some that work there, but they don’t live there. So, that was the answer to white flight, was an inner city suburb, which is what the city was calling Lincoln Park, [00:16:00] an inner city suburb, at that time. [Got a little racist in there?] (inaudible). Q1: It’s all right. I kind of feel like there’s almost a transition of anger a little bit here, between how -- just between the different races that were trying to live in Chicago, and then this movement towards kind of an anger towards the actual city. JJ: Yeah. Exactly. There was a little anger of people trying to get control. More of a -- trying to control their own lives, their own destiny at the time. The African American community was coming from the south at that time. They were moving from the south. The Appalachian white community, the hillbilly community, was moving from the mountain range in the East Coast. So, they were coming [00:17:00] into Chicago at that time, and Puerto Ricans and Mexicans were also moving into the city. So, you know, you have these new minorities coming there, and then you have the ethnic minorities that were there before. And so, there’s a big change going on, and change, you know, that destabilization, I think, is what created the gang problem there. I mean, gangs are always there, but it’s what created the problematic gangs, [to contributed to that?] and poverty, because we’re a lot of poor people living together in one area, which is what Lincoln Park was. But, you know, Lincoln Park was a very -- although it was segregated every 8 �three or four blocks, you can say it was diverse. You can say it was, in a way, integrated because, every three or four blocks, you would see a different [00:18:00] minority. But Chicago in the ’50s was a very segregated city, where African Americans were living on the West Side and South Side, and the white community was on the North Side, and Latinos were kind of in the middle, near downtown, at that time, so it was a very segregated city -- not to say that has changed much because, now, those minorities are on the outskirts, on the periphery of the city and in the suburbs. They’ve been pushed to the suburbs, and the Lakefront and downtown is primarily upper class white community that exists there today. But it wasn’t done for -- it was done racially. I mean, I’m not gonna say it wasn’t -- you know, I remember when I would get a haircut when I was younger in Lincoln Park, and people didn’t know that I was Spanish, and they would be talking about how Mayor [00:19:00] Daley was not gonna allow Blacks north of North Avenue. I mean, hearing things like that. So, it was done racially. I mean, that’s who was in power at that time, but it was also done economically. I mean, it was done for profit. It was done to advance the democratic machine, you know, to keep Mayor Daley in power. In Puerto Rico, every time there’s an election, they get machetes, and they cut the grass, you know, the little trails, the little [cow trails?], and they make them look like roads. I remember, when I was younger, they used to do that. It’s sort of what Mayor Daley did in Chicago, but he did it with housing. He did it, you know, fixing [each?] neighborhood and -- be he used that to keep himself elected. So, it’s a 9 �political thing that people do at that [00:20:00] time, and that’s what was done in Lincoln Park. (coughs) Excuse me. Q1: So, do you think some of the poverty was result of lack of opportunity, or just too many people within the area? JJ: Well, no. A lot of poor people that were coming in and no services for the -- no welcoming committee for the poor people. You have all these people moving in, and, instead of accepting them, you’re trying to push them out. You’re saying that there is the blighted area. We need to fix this area. And so, instead of providing for the youth, like an after school program so that they’re occupied, busy, supervised, because, you know, both of their parents had to work, so they couldn’t supervise them just to survive. So, instead of, for the city, welcoming people in, the new immigrants [00:21:00] in, what they were doing was to displace them, just push them to another neighborhood and just push them away to get rid of them. So, urban renewal became urban removal of poor people. They were just being kicked out. No attention was being given to these new immigrants, and these new immigrants, Puerto Ricans, are United States citizens. They fought in every war that the United States has fought in since they became connected to the United States, since they were invaded by the United States in 1898. They were made citizens 1917 for World War I, so they fought in World War I, World War II, in Korea, in Vietnam. They’re fighting today in the Middle East. So, you know, these are citizens of the United States, and they were being treated [00:22:00] like illegal aliens and like they treat undocumented workers at that time. I’m just saying that they were treated incorrectly, not as 10 �citizens and not welcomed to this country, and they were not the only ones. You know, African Americans were being treated, other ethnic minorities were also being treated the same way. The urban renewal program that was supposed to be geared to helping renovate poor areas and uplifting communities was basically a for-profit scheme that we know now today that the banks were involved, and the politicians want to blame the banks, and the banks want to blame the politicians, but they were both in cahoots with each other. It’s part of the [00:23:00] dynasty of Chicago. You know, so many people in Chicago that have been put in jail for corruption. If you look at it, most of them were -- it was connected to the housing situation in Chicago. But, today, we blame the youth for all these problems, and they need to take responsibility, but city hall did not do anything to help the youth or to help the new immigrants, which is where most gangs originated, from new immigrants that no one is paying attention to. So, in Lincoln Park, had we paid attention to them, there probably wouldn’t be the supergangs that we have today. They probably would have just been neighborhood little kids playing, doing some petty little crime here and there that could have been resolved, but, instead, now, what we have [00:24:00] are drug enterprises and supergangs because the city not only did not pay attention to the youth, but they displaced them. They discriminated against them. They scapegoated them. And so, the Young Lords were unique in the fact that not only individuals changed, but an entire gang changed and began to work -- we set up, you know, a daycare center so that the women of the group can participate in what we were doing. We modeled ourselves after some of the 11 �Panther programs. So, we had a free breakfast for children program. We had a free health clinic. We had a dental clinic. We had a Puerto Rican cultural center. We began a little militant because, again, we didn’t have any [00:25:00] role models. Our parents were involved in the church, and here we are, becoming more and more militant. So, we didn’t have any role models. We just had to fend for ourselves, but we didn’t want -- you know, our parents were being discriminated, but they were quiet and silent, and we had grown up here. And so, we knew we had rights, and we were trying to defend our rights, and that’s more or less how we began. So, we held the first large demonstrations in Chicago in terms of the Puerto Rican community, in terms of the Latino community, where we had 10,000 people, up to 100,000 people in 1983, when Harold Washington, the first African American mayor, was elected, and we played a major role in that election. There was 100,000 people in June of 1983 at Humboldt Park, and I was the only one on stage [00:26:00] representing the Young Lords and introducing the newly elected mayor. We gave out 30,000 buttons with “Tengo Puerto Rico En Mi Corazon, I have Puerto Rico in my heart,” because the Young Lords stood for self-determination for Puerto Rico, and also, you know, self-determination [for?] neighborhood empowerment. It was a simple philosophy that we had. We fought against police brutality. We marched against police brutality, but our main concern was more the community. We were not just thinking about ourselves. We knew that the police were -- there was a lot of repression on our group, but we were more concerned with trying to set up programs for the community, trying to save the community from being -- today, 12 �they call it gentrification or that. We call it more -- we needed to control [00:27:00] our own neighborhood, our own destiny at the time. Q1: So, could you actually describe the moment where you realized that the gang activity just wasn’t the right way to go and that this more political front could [better?] --? JJ: I mean, there were changes that were going on with a lot of people at that time, but, personally, I had become the leader of the gang in the mid-’60s, and then I [had gone?] into jail. You know, mostly, that’s why I was the leader. I was going in and out of jail and that, and I began to do organizing within the group and that and tried to keep the group together because, you know, groups have internal fights also. So, I was the one that would keep everyone together and thinking Young Lords first before [00:28:00] our little, petty differences. And so, I remember organizing a month of Soul Dances, where, every Saturday, every weekend, we met at St. Michael’s, and we -- was the first time that we were on the radio. You know, we bought a advertisement on the radio, and we filled up the gymnasium for four weeks straight. So, it was a month of soul. We got this other gang called the Blackstone Rangers. They had a dance group and African dancers. Remember bringing them and some Spanish bands to our dances. We had learned from our parents, the Knights of St. John and the Hijas de María, and how they organized their dances, so we did the same thing also. You know, my mother was pretty active in the church at that time. And I had -- myself, personally, was thinking even of going into the priesthood. She had taken me out of [00:29:00] Newberry School because I was getting into fights and, because 13 �she was involved in the church, they were able to put me at St. Teresa’s for sixth, seventh, and eighth grade. So, all that and my mother preaching to me every day made me want to think about going into the priesthood, but, you know, it was difficult with poverty. [I ended up?] throwing a snowball at a bus where the pastor was in, and so I got punished, and I couldn’t go that year, and, actually, it was a blessing, anyway, in disguise, but that year that I didn’t go was when I got deeper into the Young Lords gang, where I got deported to Puerto Rico because they were looking for gang leaders at that time. So, I was put in handcuffs on a plane and sent back to Puerto Rico versus going to jail till I was 21 years old, but I actually wanted to go to jail because I didn’t know Puerto Rico. I was crying when they put me on the [00:30:00] plane. I thought I was going to a foreign country. The only country I knew was Lincoln Park, Chicago. Anyway, I came back from Puerto Rico. I called myself El Cagüeño. I changed my name from Cha-Cha to El Cagüeño. Cagüeño is Caguas, the town in Puerto Rico where I was born ’cause I came when I was two years old. But, anyway, I came back after a year. I kinda snuck back in. My father came and picked me up, and, now, I have a little culture in me. I had learned even some jíbaro music in Puerto Rico that I really appreciated my culture. I didn’t appreciate it when I was there. When I was there, I actually wanted Puerto Rico to become a state because all I remember was the United States while I was there, but, when I came back here, it was the opposite thing. I only remembered -- was Puerto Rico, so, now, I wanted the Puerto Rican culture to be brought out and all that. So, you know, we had gang sweaters, and I put my name, El [00:31:00] Cagüeño, and I became -- I 14 �was still the president of the group. But, anyway, the gang was kind of going downhill, like most gangs go through phases. And so, the gang was getting into drugs, and crime, and all the other stuff that gangs do when they’re being destroyed, when they’re destroying themselves. It was the Vietnam War era also. And so, many of the Young Lords were going to Vietnam or coming out of Vietnam, getting married. The gang was falling apart, and I’m trying to keep the gang together, but I’m involved in drugs myself. So, I went to jail for possession of drugs, and I was given a 60-day sentence, but, because, right away, when you go to jail, you hang out with other Puerto Ricans, some -- a Black gang that was there thought that [00:32:00] we were a gang, and we were just Puerto Ricans hanging out. And so, they told the guards that we were trying to escape, and, anyway, they took all the Puerto Ricans. They strip-searched us and put us in maximum security, or the hole. I had just come in, so I had 60 days, so that was -- it was a city jail, the House of Correction, so the most you can do was a year, and I had 60 days, so I had the most of that group of nine people that got put into the hole. And, you know, I’m in the hole. I’m in a cell by myself. I’m on the third level. It’s an old Civil War cell. The catwalk is made out of wood. There’s rats running around, so they have large cats that they allow to live with us so they can get the rats. There’s roaches [hanging?] -- I mean, can you imagine going to jail and having to fight roaches? We had roaches in the jail, [00:33:00] where, basically, it’s summer. It’s hot. There’s no air conditioning, so we’re in our underwear and just hanging onto the bars. I mean, it’s a old Civil War jail cell. And so, I began to read. I hadn’t read since I had been in eighth grade and I 15 �read Seven Storey Mountain by Thomas Merton, which was about a Catholic hermit. Just, I read him only because the books were there. I mean, had it been another book, I probably would have read that one, but I read Thomas Merton. I didn’t really get too much out of it except that he was a hermit, and I’m in the hole, and I feel like a hermit myself. So, now, I want to go to confession. You know, I want to end drugs. I don’t want to be addicted to drugs. And so, I went to confession, and they said, “Well, you’re just trying to get out of your cell, so we’re not going to allow you to see a priest.” So, I talked to the -- I kept sending [00:34:00] messages to the priest, and he finally came to see me in my cell. And so, I went to confession there, and then I felt good, you know, like people, Catholics, feel when they go to confession. They feel real good. I had cleansed myself, my soul, and everything, and I joke about it now, but, I mean, I really took it serious because it was like standing up for your rights because other inmates are taunting you because, “Hey, this guy, Cha-Cha got a priest comin’ up here. He’s crazy.” But I was standing up for what I believed at that time. Again, we were Catholic. My mother had ingrained that in us. So, anyway, after that, I started reading Martin Luther King, and, you know, he’s a religious person. And then, I also read another religious person, Malcolm X. So, I kind of got both sides. I got the peace side, and I [00:35:00] got the Malcolm X talking about revolution, Black revolution, and, you know, there were no Latino books at that time, no Latino role models. And then, I started hearing on the news -- we had a loudspeaker with a radio on that would be blasting 24 hours a day with the old dusties. We didn’t call them oldies [but?] we called them dusties, but there would 16 �be, I mean, real old songs. And so, I would hear that, but, in between, there would be the news, and so I was hearing about the Black Panther Party in Oakland, taking over a courthouse with guns, and I’m going, “These people are crazy,” where, you know, they had different laws in the West Coast. From Chicago, you can’t be walking around in Chicago with guns, but -- not publicly. But, over there, you can walk with rifles, but that’s why they were protesting, because they were changing the laws and that at that [00:36:00] time. But, anyway, that kind of fascinated me a little bit, and I felt, you know, this is what we need to do in the Puerto Rican community. And so, I said, “When I get out of here, that’s what I want to do.” So, I got out, but we had to go through an exoffender program because I had to look for work. I needed employment. I didn’t want to get involved with any more drugs. So, I got -- half a day, we would go to get the GED, and the other -- you know, these were all ex-gang members, [exoffenders?], but we were still gang members, but they called us ex-gang members, but we were all together. We weren’t fighting. We were in school half a day. This was at the Argonne National Laboratory program there, and the other half a day -- so, half the day, we were janitors, and the other half a day, we were at school, getting our GED. So, we had a lot of fun there. [00:37:00] I remember opening up the maintenance room, and there’d be somebody asleep, and we would be stealing the golf carts and driving all over the place. I mean, we were little mischievous people, but we were studying and that. And, in fact, on one of the field trips, the teacher took us to the Democratic Convention so we can be exposed to the current events of the time. About 10 of us went to the 17 �Democratic Convention. We’re all gangbangers, and the hippies are getting beaten up and that, and that kind of affected us because we were used to getting beat up. That was a big thing, and then we’re reading about it in the newspaper. They’re calling it a police riot against the press ’cause the press was also getting beat up at that time. Mayor Daley was talking about -- I mean, later on, when the Black riots, when he was talking about shoot to kill. [00:38:00] You know, when Martin Luther King died, there were riots. So, anyway, even while I was there, I had seen people coming in from the Black riots, and also undocumented workers. Mexican people, which, to us, are our people, were being brought in, and the only crime they were committing was that they were working. So, we’re looking at it -- we’re inmates in jail. We’re criminals, and these people are coming in just because they’re working. They’re bringing them in, and pushing them around, and discriminating against them because they can’t speak any English. So, I mean, I offered to translate, and they said, again, “You just want to get out of your cell.” And I said, “Look. I’ll translate from up here.” So, they let me translate from my cell, and, you know, “Just don’t push them around. You just don’t understand. They don’t speak any English,” ’cause they were being pushed around and smiling. Ask ’em a question, they would smile ’cause they didn’t know what the officer [00:39:00] was asking them. But, anyway, all those things were kinda contributing to my enlightenment in terms of -- I don’t know if it’s enlightenment but in terms of seeing our people being discriminated and in terms of seeing a need to organizing something similar to the Black Panther Party but in the Puerto Rican community. I was fascinated with the Black 18 �Panther Party because, to me, they were like an army, and I felt that that’s what we needed at that time, was like an army and that. They started that way, but later on, they also were involved in primarily organizing, and I learned that later as I became more involved, that they were concerned with organizing the community for change. Not just the military aspect of it, but also the [mass line?] of organizing [00:40:00] the community with programs like the breakfast for children program, the health clinic, sickle cell anemia concerns, women’s rights. They stood for gay rights, gay liberation. Environmental movement, all those movements were right around that time that the Black Panther Party worked on. In Chicago, we made a coalition with Fred Hampton, and it was called the Rainbow Coalition. Later on, Jesse Jackson adopted that name, which is fine, but it originated from Fred Hampton, Chairman Fred Hampton of the Chicago Black Panther Party, and it was the originators that [were with?] the Young Lords, the young preachers, and the Black Panthers, and then it spread nationwide. So, all these things -- you know, a lot of movement going on in Chicago, a lot of stuff. [00:41:00] And then, we had no choice. Although the Black Panther Party’s main issue at that time was police abuse, police brutality, they did have a Ten-Point Program. Our main issue was not our choice. It was being displaced from our community, so our main issue was a housing issue, and it still is today. I mean, today, the Humboldt Park area in Chicago is still being displaced, and we’ve been displaced out of other cities, like in New York, and other areas, and in Puerto Rico. It’s a way to destabilize the community and to take control by the city of those areas. (inaudible). 19 �Q1: Well, what was one of the major acts that the new political group strived for in order to help with this whole displacement issue? JJ: Well, the first act that we did was -- [00:42:00] I was standing on the corner, and this lady named Pat Devine was from the Concerned Citizens of Lincoln Park. They had been organizing poor people to fight against urban renewal. They weren’t organizing Latinos. They were just organizing poor people. And so, remember, she was on the corner of Halsted and Dickens, which used to be our neighborhood, but it was displaced, but we still hung around there ’cause a new hot dog stand had moved to the other side of the street, and, in Chicago at that time, if you were a gang, you belonged to a hot dog stand. I mean, that was your neighborhood hangout. We even had credit and everything at our hot dog stand on Halsted and Dickens. But, anyway, she was there, and this guy, [Benny?], was in uniform. He was [00:43:00] on leave from Vietnam, and I was talking to him. He’s a Young Lord, and I’m talking to him, and I’m excited to see him. I hadn’t seen him in a while. I had just got out of jail. And Pat Devine just starts telling him, “You know, you kill all the Vietnamese people. What’s wrong with you? You should be ashamed of yourself.” I say, “What are you talking about, you white B?” You know what I’m saying? I was very annoyed by her. I said, “You’re trying to kick us out of our neighborhood.” And, anyway, she got into a fight, and then she says, you know, “You’re a communist.” I called her a communist. She says, “Oh, yeah? Well, I’m proud to be one, then.” And I’m going like, “This lady’s crazy.” You know what I’m saying? She’s a communist. We got into an argument, but the guys intervene and stop this arguing and that, 20 �[00:44:00] but I was convinced that she was one of the people that was kicking us out. I found out from her later, as we spent some time talking -- all of us went to her house and spent some time, and she explained how they were trying to stop urban renewal in that community, and she wanted us to get involved. Well, the other people were not that interested, but I got interested ’cause I had just come out of jail, and I had seen the changes in two months. I mean, you see people get their possessions thrown out on the street. The streets that were twoways became one-ways. The fire departments and police departments were all being renovated. All the hospitals and institutions were being renovated and expanded. And so, this all happened, like, in a two-month period, this was all going on. And so, I could see the difference. It was like a whole new area at the time. So, she asked me to bring people to a meeting, and I says, “Well, [00:45:00] you know, how many people can you bring to a meeting?” I said, “I can bring you thousands ’cause I’m the leader of the Young Lords street gang. I can bring you thousands.” Well, I began to ask people to come to the meeting, and I was getting involved in fights, physical fights, and they were calling me a communist, and I didn’t know anywhere else to organize. All I knew was to organize where we hung out at, in the street corners, and in the bars, and places like that, and parties and that, so I was going into -- when I couldn’t get enough Young Lords, I was going to the other groups, like the Black Eagles, and the Paragons, and the Flaming Arrows, and Imperial Aces [and Queens?], Trojans, Continentals, all these different groups that were in Lincoln Park at the time. I was going to their neighborhoods and getting into fistfights with them. When they 21 �saw me, they’d [00:46:00] go, “Oh, here he comes again. Here comes that crazy nut trying to talk to us, some crazy stuff.” I mean, I became obsessed with trying to fight against urban renewal, and I was trying to bring people to that meeting, but I wasn’t having a good -- I wasn’t making too much progress. In fact, half of the Young Lords quit. They didn’t want anything to do with me anymore because I was talking about political stuff and politics, you know. So, anyway, on the day of the meeting, I was able to get people from the various groups, just a few representatives from the various groups, and, remember, we met at Dayton and Armitage, which -- we were hanging out there, which, later, was where we took over the church there. But we met there, and we marched from there. We kinda walked from there. I wouldn’t say march. I mean, we kind of -- it looked like we were going to a gang [00:47:00] fight, like we usually did. About 60 of us walked to Larrabee Street, about four, five blocks away, and we entered the building, and there was a display there, and I told people -- I wasn’t educated about urban renewal. I tell them, “You see this display? Look at -- your houses are all empty. That means that they’re gonna destroy your houses. These people are meeting here to kick you out.” It was a meeting of the Community Conservation Council. It was the urban renewal headquarters at that time, and it was in Lincoln Park. And so, we didn’t know then, at that time. But, anyway, the people saw the display. Then, we walked into the meeting, and in the hall, on the stage, were about 10, 12 Americans. There were no Blacks, no Spanish people there, no poor people. In fact, most of them were, like, [00:48:00] developers. Some were members and the audience were members of the Lincoln Park Conservation 22 �Association, and a few people like Pat Devine was there, and some other people, but she hadn’t come with us. We came on our own. She was glad to see us, but, see, our people were not used to -- you know, we were gangs. We were representing different gangs, so our people were not used to -- first of all, we didn’t understand urban renewal, and we were not used to going to meetings. So, all I remember was saying something to the nature of, “This meeting is over. It’s dead. You’re not meeting here no more until you have Black, Latino, and poor white representation, and I remember them looking at me like I’m crazy. So, anyway, to make our point, some of the gang members start picking up chairs and didn’t throw it at the people ’cause we said, “We’re not here to jump on anybody,” [00:49:00] but started just throwing it at windows and stuff like that. Anyway, we ended up -- this guy told me later to use the word “trash.” We trashed the place, but, I mean, we would have probably used a different term then because that’s what we were trying to do. We were trying to tear it up, and then, we went to -- messed up the plumbing. The display was broken in 20 million pieces, and we all walked down and told everybody, “Go straight home. That way, we don’t get arrested.” So, you know, we had about 60 people, and everybody goes home. Nobody got arrested. The next day, we were giving each other five. It was like a victory and stuff like that that we did. So, that was the first action that we did, was -- some people would call it militant today. It was just a natural -- we didn’t know what we were doing, so that’s what we did. So, that was followed by what we call an organized riot because there had been so many -- a few riots [00:50:00] already, but we had people from Vietnam [in that 23 �school?]. We say, “We don’t want to destroy our community. We just want to get the stores that don’t belong here, that are not Puerto Rican -- we want them wiped out. So, we had an organized riot. Some of the Vietnam veterans synchronized their watches, and everybody took windows and bricks from all the way from Larrabee to Racine and Armitage, and we busted all the windows that were not Puerto Rican. And, the next day, they were all boarded up, and we’re giving each other five again. It’s another victory. We got one victory after the other. We went to the real estate office, and we picketed because it’s the local mafia -- we called him Fat Larry later -- had put a submachine gun on a Puerto Rican store owner that was renting [00:51:00] and didn’t have money for the rent. So, he didn’t want to go to the police because he knew the police were connected with the local mafia, and the reason we knew he was a local mafia was my father used to sell the numbers, Orlando’s father used to sell the numbers, and they used to turn the money in to the local mafia, so that’s what ran the numbers game in that neighborhood. So, everybody knew that they were Italian, they were the local mafia, whatever. Not that the mafia’s only Italian. (coughs) Excuse me. I messed it up. [I can stop?]. Q1: You’re fine. (inaudible) take a break. JJ: Okay. Yeah, I think I need (inaudible). Q1: Yeah. Yeah, you’re free to take a drink. Q2: (inaudible). JJ: But, anyway, I was -- let me finish. Q1: Okay. 24 �JJ: I don’t know if I can or not. No, let’s take a break. Q1: Okay. Yeah. JJ: Yeah. [00:52:00] It’s like dust. The dust gets in my -- Q1: Yeah. Q2: Yeah. JJ: (inaudible). How much time do you want to go with this? Q2: There is -- Q1: We’ve gone for almost -- it’s like 50 minutes right now. JJ: [Did you shut mine off?]? Q1: Fifty-three minutes. JJ: But do you want to go to 50 -- (break in recording) Q1: So, you’re rolling. JJ: So, you know, we knew who they were. They were the local mafia. At that time, they were organized, and they didn’t want to really create any disturbance because they were reaping profits from the real estate. They were involved in the real estate market. There were three offices, three real estate offices on one small block, so they were making a lot of money on the real estate. So, anyway, we picketed his office. [Yeah, he put a?] [00:53:00] submachine gun on us, and then I remember I didn’t know what to do at the time. I just put my hand in my pocket like I had something, but he went in the back office [with a window on?], and he called the police. The police came, and, instead of searching him, he was locked up in the office, although he left his partner on the front desk, scared, 25 �and we told his partner, “We’re not here to create any problems.” But we had some photographers with us, and they started taking photos. So, what we did was, the next week, we took all those photos and put them on the front page of a local newspaper that we produced, and we spread about 20,000 copies all through the neighborhood. So, now, the community is riled up. Our parents are upset. The Caguas Social Club, were [00:54:00] my father and other -- uncles and that, other people, would go, they started taking it on their own to break his windows. We were not breaking his windows. So, his windows went from big picture windows to little cube windows, basically, and that was the parents doing that, not us. So, you know, the community was getting there. We started uniting with other groups, like the North Side Cooperative Ministry, the Concerned Citizens of Lincoln Park, the SDS, Students for a Democratic Society, Rising Up Angry, different organizations. I mean, the churches were all involved with the Young Lords and that at that time. So, now, we’re broadening ourselves, and we’re forming the Lincoln Park Poor People’s Coalition, and I was elected president of that, [as being?] with the Young Lords. Also, we were connected with the Waller [00:55:00] High School Planning Committee, and I was elected vice president of that. You know, keep in mind, I didn’t go that far in school, but the Young Lords were gaining a reputation in the political field at that time and standing up for the community. So, anyway, that group, the Lincoln Park Poor People’s Coalition, and the Young Lords were meeting with the institutions, like the hospitals and McCormick Seminary, and asking them to -- we’re kinda demanding that they be involved in low-income housing. Somebody had to -- 26 �’cause they were the ones that were involved in trying to displace us. We were trying to put pressure on them to also invest in low-income housing. We were not against improving the community. We just wanted to make sure that there was neighborhood diversity, that everyone was included. Well, McCormick Theological Seminary, a religious institution, [00:56:00] clearly stated that they were not gonna be involved in low-income housing because it was not profitable. So, it was like our group was demoralized. The coalition was demoralized, so the Young Lords -- we took it upon ourselves. We walked out [in caucus?] at the meeting, and we took it upon ourselves. We were walking back, and we’re looking at McCormick Theological Seminary, and we said, “You know what? We can take this building over,” and we went in, and we had no cars at that time, no vehicles. Most of us had bicycles, so that’s what we used, was chains from the bicycle chains, and we chained the doors, and we -- you know, broke in, and chained the doors, and took it over. We used the offices and the phones. By the next morning, we had called the media. The media had broadcast it, and the place was filling up with our [00:57:00] people. And so, by the next morning, we had about 350 people inside that seminary with us, the administration building. Today, it’s DePaul University. We stayed there for about a week. During that process, there was a theater there, so we had singers. We had poetry readings. We had acting. We had all kind of stuff going on at that time. People started organizing. We hadn’t provided any provisions. We hadn’t really planned it, so, the next morning, restaurants and neighborhood people were coming with food for us, delivering food, and we set up a kitchen crew, and we started cooking 27 �inside the administration building and that, and started feeding the people. So, [instead of going?] to [00:58:00] students from the -- seminarians that were going to the school wanted -- we kinda didn’t trust them because they were connected with the school, but we did trust them a bit, so we told them that they could -- you know, they wanted to join with us, and we said, “Fine. If you want to be our security in the front so, when the police comes, you’re there, and you are students, so it’s gonna be more difficult for them to attack you first. But, if you’re willing to do that --” And they were definitely willing to do that. At one point, McKay, the administrator, wanted to send in the police, and the -- we didn’t want the women to do it, but they did. They started bringing in their children. We asked them not to do that, but they did it on their own. We threatened to burn down the library, and that was the final [00:59:00] thing that made McKay, the director, change his mind. We also had sent a representative to Texas, to their annual conference of the Presbyterian Church, who were the people that were running the seminary, so we had a representative go all the way to Texas, Obed López. And then, by Sunday, when we threatened to burn down the library, is when they negotiated with us, and we received all our demands. We won all our demands -- 601,000 dollars to be invested in low-income housing, to hire an architect so that we can come up with our own plans, 30,000 dollar -- no, 50,000 dollars for a health clinic for Lincoln Park, the Ramón Emeterio Betances Health Clinic, which we later put in at People’s Church on Dayton and [01:00:00] Armitage, another 50,000 dollars for a clinic in West Town, in the Wicker Park neighborhood, which -- today, Wicker Park has also been displaced. We had 28 �50,000 dollars for a cultural center. Fifty thousand dollars went for the People’s Law Office, which still exists today. In fact, that clinic existed to maybe 15 years ago, so, I mean, it was -- these became institutions in their own right. But, anyway, right after that, McCormick -- that victory -- where we hung out, it was Dayton and Armitage, and there was a vacant United Methodist Church there. And so, we had been negotiating with them to see if they would let us use their gymnasium so that the guys who were hanging out outside of their church would be able to go inside and play basketball instead of just hanging out and creating a ruckus outside, [01:01:00] but we can work with the youth, and they wouldn’t be involved in gangs. But the congregation was a Cuban congregation, and they did not like what the Young Lords were doing. At that time, we didn’t understand what we were doing wrong, but the community was primarily Puerto Rican anyway, but the congregation was Cuban at the time. But, anyway, we ended up -- Reverend Bruce Johnson, who was there, was also a member of the Northside Cooperative Ministry, so he was already working with us. So, when we took over that church, he basically went against his own congregation. His congregation called the police, and I was standing outside with him, and I said, “There’s gonna be a bloodbath.” You know, there was weapons there. “There’s gonna be a bloodbath.” And so, Reverend Bruce Johnson decided to [01:02:00] tell the police that he had given us permission to be there. So, because of that action, we in turn said, well, this is really not a takeover. So, the next day, we had opened up the day care center of the clinic and all that right away, and there was a press conference, and the press conference asked me, were we gonna permit 29 �the church to have Mass, and I told them, “This is not a takeover, and not only are they gonna have Mass, but I intend to be there myself.” And so, after that, they came up with a button that said, “People’s Church,” so they became part of the movement that we also were doing. In fact, that’s what was good about the Young Lords, was we were increasing in numbers. We got many people to be involved, so it became more than just a Puerto Rican movement, but it became more of a diverse movement. [01:03:00] So, after that, the police came down heavy with repression. There were building inspectors being brought to the church to try to close it down ’cause we were there. They had a police car that changed their shift right there, in front of the church, so it was there, parked, 24 hours a day. They were photographing everybody going in and out of the church. They were calling the radio and stop people like a block away, shake them down, you know, go through their possessions. Many times, I would be arrested, and they would take my phone book with out -- just, they knew they could do that, and they were getting people’s numbers, and addresses, and that from me, so I know they were doing that with a lot of other people. So, you know, they had put the Young Lords and the Black Panthers in the police training videos, so -- [01:04:00] we didn’t have cars, so, when we walked down the street, we were being stopped by new recruits, new police recruits, because, hey, this is Cha-Cha, or this is Fred Hampton, or these are Panthers. These are Young Lords. Anybody with our buttons, and there were a lot of people wearing our buttons, would be stopped and harassed, which is freedom of speech, wearing a button, but they would be stopped and harassed. But, anyway, when we saw 30 �that that was taking place, we were learning more from the Black Panther Party. Say, “That’s why we need these programs,” the breakfast for children program, the health clinic, and that, so not only are we showing people what type of society we want, a cooperative society that we want, you know, to work together, more collectivism, to work together, as we call it, but these are ways also to keep us alive, to survive, so [01:05:00] that the police cannot attack us and destroy our movement, which is what they wanted to do at that time. So, we said, instead of being so -- the Puerto Rican community had not gone, like the African American community, through a phase of -- at least the Puerto Rican community in Chicago -- through a phase of nonviolence, and demonstrations, (inaudible), so we needed to involve more of the people in the community. And so, we began to organize demonstrations, and one turning point was when Manuel Ramos was killed by an off-duty policeman, James Lamb, and people in the Young Lords wanted to get even, and we had discussions and said, “You know, the best way to get even is to organize the community.” [All the?] hotheads in the group wanted just to shoot people, to get even the old-fashioned way, [01:06:00] but we were able to organize, and we had a march of about 10,000 strong. At that time, we had other groups join in. I remember the Horsemen was a motorcycle group, and they came with their motorcycles in front, and they looked beautiful. And then, the Caballeros de San Juan and Hijas de María of council number nine, they were deeply involved with us at that time, so the church was involved. In fact, Antulio Parrilla, the bishop of Puerto Rico, came to celebrate -- specifically to Chicago -- to celebrate a Mass for the Young Lords, so we were very grateful 31 �for that. This is the bishop of Puerto Rico coming just to see us, and the Caballeros of San Juan were the ones that brought him in. Jesús Rodríguez was the leader at that time that brought him in. So, we were getting [01:07:00] not only the Protestants with the Northside Cooperative Ministry, but the Catholic Church was also, now, supporting us and that. Later on, of course, I was involved in the [aldermanic campaign?] where I ran for alderman also, and we got 39 percent of the vote. You know, all you need is 51 percent to win, so, for the first time ever -- usually you get maybe one or two percent. Here, we got 39 percent. The second time that we were involved in a campaign was the campaign for mayor Harold Washington in 1983, and he won, and it was a different feeling from picketing and protesting to being victors, to winning, and that’s when I introduced him in front of 100,000 Puerto Ricans in Humboldt Park with 30,000 people wearing our buttons. So, you know, we started kind of militant from the [01:08:00] gang, kinda evil and mischievous, and became citizens, honest citizens working for the community, and, now, many of our people know us. Our history’s being taught in many Latino studies departments in many universities across this country. Right now, as a student at Grand Valley State University, I’m in the process of documenting the community of Lincoln Park that was completely displaced with an oral history project. We have done some work with DePaul University, but this is -- I’m excited. This is a bigger project, and it’s the people themselves, telling their own history. And so, that’s what we’re doing. That’s what I’m doing today. That’s what we’re doing today as a group. 32 �Q1: [01:09:00] Now, with that, why is documenting the past so important to you, and what do you want to achieve with this project? JJ: Well, you know, it’s not just documenting the past, but this is a group of people that stood up for their rights, so it’s -- we’re telling the history of an immigrant group, the Puerto Rican community, that -- not many people know about the Puerto Rican community. The first Puerto Ricans to Chicago, their community that was displaced, and we’re saying that they stood up for their rights. So, it’s like a historical piece that we’re doing for the community. I mean, they stood up. They marched. They protested. They were militant. They were religious. They were pilgrims. [01:10:00] There’s many lessons to be learned. They worked with their own youth. The whole lessons of how they were a stable community, and then they were destabilized and destroyed, and supergangs came out of that. All those are lessons that not only the Puerto Rican community can learn but everyone can learn. And so, I think it’s an important element in terms of the history of the United States itself. I mean, this is the first gang that completely turned themselves around. I mean, you don’t have that. That’s history by itself. You don’t have that in the history of -- this is good for the sociologists and anybody that wants to study the gang problem that exists today to at least get some ideas how we can change that for future immigrants that will be coming -[01:11:00] you know, this is the land of immigrants. So, it’s important, I think, for America. It’s important for Puerto Ricans that we do this history. Q1: Well, thank you. JJ: Thank you. 33 �Q1: Awesome stuff. Q2: Very nice. Q1: Thank you. (break in recording) Q1: And recording. JJ: Well, I’m against the plebiscite mainly because it’s not Puerto Rican. It’s more of a master plan for Puerto Rico that was put in place since 1898. It’s a tool to try to complete the process of colonization for Puerto Rico. It’s not half of the population of Puerto Ricans that live in the United States, who live in what we call a shuttle culture because they move back and [01:12:00] forth to Puerto Rico. They travel back and forth to Puerto Rico. Their children were born here or born there. It’s a shuttle culture. Half of the Puerto Ricans will not be able to vote in this plebiscite, so it’s a rigged election from the beginning. It’s only there for the purposes of helping to elect the current governor that exists there. Puerto Rico is an occupied nation. There is no army, no military. They government of Puerto Rico is basically on the payroll so that, you know, you have more people in government than you really need, and they’re just basically there to maintain the island [colonized?]. One-third of Puerto Rico is a military base. Puerto Rico does not have its own currency. From the peso, they went to the American dollar. Puerto Ricans [01:13:00] are not against the Americans. We have fought for the American people, so we -- Puerto Ricans are American citizens. What we’re saying is that we have a right to determine our own destiny, the same thing that the United States was saying against England. We have been in existence 34 �300 years more than the United States. In fact, the first governor of Puerto Rico, Ponce de León, discovered the oldest city in the United States, St. Augustine, Florida. So, I mean, Puerto Rico is a nation with its own culture, with its own language, with its own history, a nation of 500 years and more, and we feel it’s an occupied nation, and it needs to remain free. Libre, as we call it. [Thanks?]. END OF VIDEO FILE 35 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c5131908777cdf642451538df4f7adaf.mp4 9002636d2da7277abcfb9ae39d32c14d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Jose Jimenez vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 1 Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, entrevistado en 3/15/2012 sobre los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Jimenez_Jose_1 Title A name given to the resource Jose Jimenez video interview and transcript, interview 1 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jimenez, Jose Description An account of the resource Oral history of Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, interviewed on 3/15/2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-15 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3143b58bebcdf41996ddd2297dbdf157.pdf 372238cba2e8c0bd6849941f646ad9c1 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Daisy Jiménez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/10/2012 Biography and Description English Daisy Jiménez, or “La Prieta” as she was called by her father, is one of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez’s sisters. She was born on the seventh floor of what was the Water Hotel at Superior and La Salle Streets in Chicago, where her family was then living. She grew up in La Clark between Ohio and North Ave., and then in the Lincoln Park area where she helped her mother Eugenia go door to door recruiting Hispanos for Spanish mass and praying rosaries for the Caballeros de San Juan and Damas de María. After living on Claremont and North Ave. for several years the family moved to Aurora, Illinois. There they joined up with grassroots leader Teo Arroyo, who was also from Barrio San Salvador of Caguas, Puerto Rico and was organizing the first Puerto Rican Parade for that city. Daisy entered the contest for Puerto Rican Parade Queen and won. She has raised four children and today lives in Camuy, Puerto Rico with her husband, Israel Rodríguez. Spanish Daisy Jiménez o como la llamaba su padre, “La Prieta”, es una hermana de José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. Nació en el séptimo piso del Water Hotel en la calle Superior y La Salle Streets en Chicago, donde vivía su familia. Creció en La Clark medio Ohio y North Ave. , y luego en Lincoln Park donde ayudo a su mama �a reclutar gente para misa en Español y dando rosarios para los Caballeros de San Juan y Damas de María. Después de vivir en Claremont y North Ave. Por unos años, la familia se movió ah Aurora, Illinois. Aquí conocieron a Teo Arroyo quien estaba organizando el primer desfilo Puertorriqueño en Aurora, y también era de Barrio San Salvado de Caguas. Daisy entro la carrera para ser Reina del Desfilo Puertorriqueño y gano. Ahora vive en Camuy, Puerto Rico con su esposo Israel Rodríguez y cuatro hijos. �Transcript 2 JOSE JIMENEZ: -- about you ran for Puerto Rican Queen in Aurora. Tell me what was that all about? DAISY JIMENEZ: That was when we moved to Aurora. There was candidates. They had, like, three girls that were running for Puerto Rican Queen. JJ: What year did you move to Aurora? DJ: That was in 1969. JJ: Nineteen sixty-nine, you moved to Aurora. DJ: We moved to Aurora. JJ: So right after the Young Lords started, that’s when you moved there? DJ: Yes. JJ: Okay. And what was the reason for moving there? DJ: The reason we had to move was because my older sister eloped with her boyfriend and he beat up on my sister. She walked all the way to the Young Lords church where they were all located, where everybody lived out there. JJ: (inaudible). Then what happened? DJ: Then my brother -- then you beat up on him [00:01:00] and you took him back to our house with my sister and you made her stay there and he had to leave. JJ: How do you know he was beaten up? DJ: Because he couldn’t open his eyes. That’s how swollen his eyes were. And he had said that you had beat him up. And then you made him take my sister back 1 �home, so since you made him take my sister back home, after everybody left and everything, my dad came home from work. JJ: He was being treated with respect when he went to your house? DJ: Yes. JJ: And you (inaudible) maybe he was beat up. He was -- DJ: Oh no, he was treated -- no, he went into the house, took her back home, nobody said anything to him or whatever, and then he had to leave. So he left and after he left -- JJ: Was he beaten up because he eloped? DJ: He was beaten up because he beat my sister really bad. Really [00:02:00] bad. And he had no reason to do that to my sister. And then my sister told you that he would hit her every day for no reason at all. She had to walk -- he was very -- the word is machista. He was very machista, so when they would walk down the street, my sister had to walk looking at the ground. If she would raise her head up at all or look at a window at a store or anything like that, automatically when he got home, he would beat her up. JJ: So was he jealous of her? DJ: He was very insecure. Our sister actually threw herself out of the second floor window because he had her locked up in the house with the bolt and keys. She couldn’t get out of the house, so she tried to escape, so she jumped out of a window and he was waiting for her downstairs, brought her in the house, and beat her up again. And then that’s when he got up all of the sudden and he left. JJ: [00:03:00] Now wasn’t he also married or something like that? 2 �DJ: On top of all that, he brought his wife -- his ex-wife -- to their apartment and had her staying there overnight with their child while my sister was there. So there was a lot of issues there. There was a lot, a lot of issues there. So then because of that, my mom could not take -- JJ: That was on Claremont, right? Why did you move from Bissell to Claremont? DJ: We moved from Bissell to Claremont because the owner of the house on Claremont was a compadre of my mom and dad. So since they were compadres, he had an empty apartment at the time and they just decided they were moving from Bissell to Claremont, to that area. JJ: Why all of the sudden? Because you lived many years on Bissell Street. DJ: I don’t know. JJ: [They weren’t talking about him?]? Nothing happened? (inaudible) DJ: It could have been. [00:04:00] It could have been that they raised the rent. It could have been a lot of different -- JJ: It could have been, but you don’t know. DJ: I don’t remember. At that time, I don’t remember ’cause at that time, I actually was not paying attention to much. JJ: So you moved from Bissell Street and Dickens, Bissell and Dickens, 2117. DJ: Twenty-one seventeen North Bissell. JJ: Well, we lived several years there. DJ: We lived a lot of years there. 3 �JJ: A lot of years there. And so we knew everybody in the community. ’Cause when we moved from there to Claremont and North Avenue, there was a church -- I think the FML or something like that. DJ: The what? JJ: I think they’re called FLM or something, that group, the Puerto Rican group? DJ: I’m not sure. JJ: (inaudible) over there (inaudible) there in the corner or something? DJ: There was people there at the corner. But I don’t remember. Like, I wasn’t really into all that stuff. I know all about this. I know about my sister getting beat up because we lived it. I mean, we saw it. But at that time, [00:05:00] I hadn’t gone to the church where my brother was with his organization. At that time, we weren’t there, and then from there, because of all the problems that we were having at the house with my sister, my parents decided that we were moving. Out of the blue. It was like overnight. We had a cousin. We moved to Aurora. He let us stay with him for a couple of weeks until we got our own apartment. JJ: Who was that? DJ: [Benedicto?]. JJ: Benedicto Jimenez? DJ: Jimenez. JJ: So you stayed at his house for a couple weeks until you were able to find a -- DJ: Until we were able to find an apartment. JJ: Okay, and that was -- DJ: That was in 1969. 4 �JJ: Okay, so now you found an apartment where? What street? DJ: On Claim Street. On Claim Street. Claim and High. JJ: And was it a big apartment? DJ: It was a little house. It was a little house, a detached home, and we got the apartment. We got the house and we were living there. And that was fine then. JJ: You don’t have the [00:06:00] address on Claim? DJ: Six fifteen. JJ: Six fifteen? DJ: I think it’s 615 Claim Street. JJ: In Aurora? DJ: In Aurora. JJ: Okay. So now you’re at 615 Claim Street in Aurora and are you in school? DJ: I was going to school. I believe I was in ninth grade. I was in the ninth. I was in eighth grade. I remember eighth grade. I had just finished -- JJ: You don’t know what school? You don’t know what school, do you? What school? DJ: No, and it wasn’t eighth grade, it was ninth grade. It was Waldo High School. JJ: Waldo High School. DJ: Yes, because I did ninth, tenth, eleventh, and twelfth there. Or, no, I went ninth and tenth. JJ: Okay, so you didn’t finish high school, then? DJ: No. I finished ninth there and then we went to East High and I started tenth, but that’s when I really started cutting class. 5 �JJ: And why were you cutting class? DJ: It just didn’t faze me. School was not fazing me [00:07:00] anymore. I was upset because we had to move from Chicago. I didn’t want to move. I had a boyfriend in Chicago. I didn’t want to move to Aurora. I couldn’t see him. I couldn’t talk to him. So this went on and on, so all of the sudden, we went to school one day -and I’ll never forget this because it was the first time I ever cut school in my life -we go and we cut school and my sister’s decided they were gonna cut school as well. We were just at a girlfriend’s house down the street by the school. There was like a group of us cut class, and we all went there. Well, all of the sudden, my brother -- which is you -- had an auto accident. JJ: Jose, Joseph. DJ: Jose, Joseph Jimenez. JJ: Okay. DJ: ’Cause I’ve always called him Joseph. JJ: Why was that? Why did you call him? DJ: I thought his name was Joseph. All my life, I grew up, I thought it his name. I never thought he was Jose. Could be because I’ve always -- JJ: But Mom called [00:08:00] me Jose. DJ: But I always thought you were Joseph, and probably because I’ve always considered myself more American than Puerto Rican. For some reason, I’ve always thought myself as that. I always go with what the Americans do. Puerto Ricans like rice and beans and everything. I prefer mashed potatoes, green 6 �beans, a salad, stuff like that. I mean, I eat it. It’s not like I don’t eat the Spanish food. But I would prefer American food. JJ: ’Cause you were born there too. DJ: ’Cause I was born and raised in Chicago, and at school, I loved their hot lunches, so that’s what I liked. JJ: What they actually did in school, they kind of changed peoples’ names. Anyway, but Daisy, yeah, they kind of changed peoples’ names when you’d go to school too. DJ: Uh-huh, exactly. JJ: So instead of the Spanish name, they called me -- DJ: Well, they never called me Daisy Jimenez. My name was Daisy Jiminez. And they also spelled it J-I-M-E-N-E-Z and it’s J-I-M-É-N-E-Z. [00:09:00] They spelled it J-I-M-I-N-E-Z. So they never spelled it correctly either, so it was a big ordeal. So then I’ll never forget that day, my first time in my life cutting class. The first time I cut. And here goes -- my brother goes and has -- which is you -- but decides on having an auto accident clear across -- I don’t know where it was. It was far away. JJ: In Aurora? DJ: You had a car accident. So what happened? My mom was babysitting some little kids during the day, so my dad goes to the school to go pick us up so we can go to the house, take care of the little kids so they can go to the hospital and go see you to make sure you were okay. When my dad goes to the school to pick us up, we were not in school. So we started coming home and we get home 7 �from school. He asks us, “Where were you?” We said, “In school.” “You were not in school because your brother had a car accident. We’ve been looking for you all [00:10:00] day. Where were you? We will take care of this later,” whatever, whatever. And they took off and left us with the little kids and they took off to the hospital, go see you to make sure you were okay. And then also while we lived in Aurora, I decided I’m running for Puerto Rican Queen. There was three girls running. And running for Puerto Rican Queen, it was the person that sold the most tickets. There would be a big raffle but the person that sold the most tickets, that would be the person that would actually win, and by winning -JJ: What organization was sponsoring this? DJ: Oh God. JJ: (inaudible) DJ: [Doroteo Arroyo?]. And it was just the Puerto Rican Parade Committee. That’s what it was called. So he was the president of the committee and it was three of us that were running for Puerto Rican Queen. We had to sell tons of tickets, so we were selling. Mom was cooking all these pasteles and selling this and selling that, and [00:11:00] we actually got to 2,000 tickets sold, and I for a fact knew that one of the other girls, one of them had 1,300 and the other one only had 1,000, so I already knew I was gonna win because I had the most tickets. But because I got upset at my dad -- I already had my dress, my gown, and everything. I had it altered. Everything was fine, ready for -- the dance was supposed to be -- and the crowning and everything -- on a Saturday. Well, the Tuesday before that Saturday -- the Saturday before, there was a dance. We 8 �had to sell more tickets, more raffles, more stuff to make more money for this organization. They were gonna pay us a trip to Puerto Rico at that time. JJ: Do you remember the other girls’ names or no? Not that important. DJ: One of them is [Carmen?]. JJ: What’s her last name? DJ: [00:12:00] Carmen [Brasero?]. That was one of ’em. And the other one I don’t remember, and the other one was the one that got crowned because she had 1,300 tickets sold, because what happened was that we went to this dance the week before. Our father already knew I had a boyfriend, which is my husband now. And we were not allowed to go out of the house together. He can visit me at my house, but I couldn’t go in his car and go anywhere with him like on a date or nothing like that, okay? So every time he would come over, for some reason when my husband came to talk to my dad and say, “I wanna see your daughter, and this and that. I want her to be my girlfriend,” and out of respect. That’s how the Puerto Ricans do that. They have to ask permission to be able to visit the daughter at the house. So my husband did that. At that time, he was my boyfriend. He did that. Well, my father didn’t [00:13:00] want to talk to him, so my mother talked to him. My mother said, “Fine, no problem, he can come by.” I believe it was on a Tuesday. “And he can come on Saturday.” So what happens? No, on Sunday. So what happens? He started coming on Tuesdays and Sundays and every time he would come, every time he would leave, there would be an argument at my house with my father. “Why is he here? Why did he come here? Why this?” And this was, like, every time, every time, and all we 9 �would do is sit on the couch and hold hands. I mean, we couldn’t even touch each other, I mean, like clothes, my elbow, or anything. We couldn’t do none of that. And for me to give him a goodbye kiss, my sister would have to, like, stand and hold up the wall in front of us, like hiding so he can give me a kiss and he can go home. So it was like one fight after the other all the time, all the time, all the time. JJ: What was [00:14:00] your father’s concern? What was he worried about? DJ: Because he said my husband drank and he don’t want him as my boyfriend because he drank. But my father drank. So what was the big deal? But no, he didn’t want him to be my boyfriend because he drank. JJ: Was he drinking a lot at that time, your father? DJ: No, no. Well, no, not at that time because my father at time, he would drink once a week. He either would drink on a Friday or drink on a Saturday. If he wanted to get drunk, he would get drunk either on a Friday or a Saturday. He would never touch anything Sunday through Thursday. JJ: What did he drink? DJ: Beer. At that time, he was really having beer. He wasn’t into drinking a lot of -before that, he did drink more, but when we moved to Aurora, he was just really drinking beer. I don’t remember him actually just like pounding down drinks or something like that. [00:15:00] I saw him more drinking beer. JJ: Was he being abusive at all at that time? ’Cause I don’t know if maybe when he was younger, he was a little abusive. 10 �DJ: No, he didn’t actually get abusive. He wanted to hit Mom one day and [Jenny?] got into it, but it was really more like an argument or whatever, not actually hitting. That’s why when my mom says, “Oh, your father always hit me,” and this and that, I don’t remember none of that. I don’t remember my father putting a hand on my mother ever. Ever. So that’s why I would like to know where was this hitting, because I never saw it, and I lived in the same house. It’s not like he did it in the bedroom ’cause when he wanted to fight, we would fight -- I know abusive in the part that she could be sleeping and he would get home at 3:00 in the morning with some friends, with the Hacha Viejas, and he would come and say, “Get up out of that bed, and I want you to cook for us.” And that, I found abusive ’cause she would get up and cook, but he didn’t hit her. So if there was hitting, it had to be when we were babies. JJ: Yeah. There was hitting when we were babies. DJ: [00:16:00] Yeah, but then after that, I don’t remember. JJ: Once we grew up, he didn’t. DJ: Yeah, I don’t remember him even touching her. JJ: Right, no. DJ: They didn’t actually talk. I don’t remember all this talking. I don’t remember hugging. I don’t remember kissing. I don’t remember my mom ever hugging me and kissing me. Ever. JJ: She never hugged you or kissed you? DJ: She would hug and kiss you because you were her son. You were her favorite. She only liked you because you were the male of the house. She didn’t like none 11 �of us three. Our three sisters? We don’t remember that. I remember one birthday party all my life, all my life, and that’s when I was 15. JJ: So did you resent that then? DJ: Oh, I resent it now. I still resent it because where we? I mean, she would come home from work. I remember having to be on my hands and knees waxing the floor, on my hands and knees. [00:17:00] So it was like all of the sudden, we grew up. We were the age of 9, 10, 11, 12. I remember we had to do everything at the house. One of us had to mop. One of us had to sweep. I had to get on my hands and knees and wax the floor by hand. It was the whole house, not just one little living room. It was the entire house. And to wash clothes, we didn’t have a machine. She would get a pillow case full of clothes. She would take that entire pillow case full of clothes and she would throw all those clothes -- it was everybody’s clothes -- dirty clothes in that bag. She would take those dirty clothes and she would throw them in the bathtub and with one of those little wooden things with the metal on it, she would put the -- JJ: The scrub boards. DJ: And we had to do the scrubbing boards. We would have to do that by hand. JJ: Instead of going to the laundromat? DJ: Exactly, and the laundromat was across the street. JJ: So you could’ve just (inaudible). DJ: Yeah. So we had to do that. We [00:18:00] had to rinse it out. We had to hang it up. And that wasn’t all because once it was dry, that whole sack of clothes, we 12 �had to stand there and we had to iron it all. She would make us iron the underwear. JJ: Do you think, was she trying to save money or maybe she wasn’t used to the new technology or something like that? DJ: No. JJ: Because she used to wash, you know, like the old days where they used to wash clothes. DJ: But she also had a machine. JJ: On the rocks. DJ: That was in Puerto Rico. But then after that, we did have machines. It’s not like we didn’t have machines. But it broke down, and so we had -- JJ: So she didn’t know how to use the machines. DJ: No, because we had a laundromat right across the street. We could’ve put all the clothes at the same time and had them all done. JJ: Did she know how to use the laundromat? DJ: It didn’t matter. If she didn’t know, we knew how to use it. All she had to do was give us the money and we would go and do it at the laundromat. No, she would make us do that. She would make us be home from school at 3:15 on the dot. We had to [00:19:00] be home and we had to start dinner. One of us had to start dinner. The other one had to start sweeping. The other one had to start mopping. And this was every day, every day, every day. We hated Saturdays. Saturdays, she would get in our room. She would take everything out of the closet. One shoe could not be out of place. Everything had to be. And in the 13 �meantime, she’d come home and just lie on the sofa. “Give me my black coffee. Give me a cigarette.” See, those are the things that you don’t remember ’cause you weren’t there. We remember a lot. There was things that I don’t know if I should say, but there’s things that happened, that bad. There was fight -- I know that they were gonna split up at one time because my mom was with some man. JJ: Okay, so it was a man. DJ: And she thinks that we don’t know. That’s the whole thing. She tried to [00:20:00] make it look like that some guy went in the house and tried to get nasty with her. But that’s not how it happened. She was getting ready for work and she knew this guy and she let him in the house and she knew Daddy wasn’t home. She knew Daddy was working. Why did she let him in the house? And then on top of that, you know that Daddy would take and get her check out of her purse to pay for the groceries, to do groceries. JJ: Let’s (inaudible). So how long was this man in the house? DJ: No, that man didn’t live there. That man just came that day. JJ: Oh, he came that day. Were you there with them? DJ: No, we were not there. We were in school. JJ: Oh, okay, so you weren’t there. You were in school. DJ: And Daddy was working. So he was there at the house. JJ: So something happened. DJ: I obviously think that something happened, but of course what happened was that our cousin Benedicto that lived in Aurora happened to be in Chicago and knocked on the door -- 14 �JJ: At that time. DJ: -- at that moment and she was in a robe. And so when he knocked and he saw her in a robe and saw this man there, [00:21:00] her excuse was -- and she put it in his mind and put it through all minds -- that this man tried to force himself on her, is what she says. But Daddy found a letter in her purse, some type of love letter in her purse, and she didn’t get rid of the love letter, so he found it. I remember we stayed next door. She had us underground, all of us. We were hiding next door. We couldn’t leave the house ’cause Daddy wanted to kill her. But we didn’t know why he wanted to kill her. We did not know why and we didn’t know why, and why? And then all of the sudden, we heard them talking. We heard all this fighting and this and that. Daddy started arguing. He wanted to hit her, but she grabbed us and we left, and then all of the sudden we just came next door on the second floor. But we would see Daddy go in and out, in and out. Well, that happened all weekend, but by Monday -- see, that’s why Daddy always loved me [00:22:00] and I know he did -- by Monday, we were walking to school and he was under the train tracks waiting for us. “You’re gonna tell me where your mother is.” And my mom specifically told us, “Don’t you tell your father where we’re at.” So I told him, I said, “Oh, we’re right next door, Daddy. We’re there. Why are you guys fighting?” And he wouldn’t tell us and wouldn’t tell us, but then we heard him talking again and I knew it was because the letter that was in her purse. And then she tries to justify herself because that wasn’t the only time. JJ: How come? 15 �DJ: That I remember. JJ: With the same person? DJ: No, this is then somebody else. Then we know. We went to a carnival. Had the carnival. We were dying to go to the carnival. Well, she kept saying, “No, we have no money. I have no money.” Daddy was working nights. “We have no money.” But all of the sudden we had money to go to the carnival. We go to the carnival. We’re getting on all [00:23:00] these rides. All of the sudden, we’re up, we’re up on the Ferris wheel, we see our mother down there talking to some man. We’re on our rides. All of the sudden, the man kept paying us rides while they were by themselves talking. Of course, at that time you don’t think anything about it, but our sister was three years -- JJ: So she was flirting with the man at that time. DJ: Of course, but our sister was three years older, which was Jenny. JJ: So I mean, on that day, you didn’t see them doing anything sexual. DJ: Not sexual. She was with him and all this laughing and all this thing. JJ: Well, that’s flirting. DJ: Exactly. And then another time when we actually lived on Bissell Street, the landlord -- JJ: But the other time, they weren’t in the house. That’s what you were saying. DJ: One of them one time was in the house. JJ: That’s the only time you saw them? Where there was a man in the house? DJ: That they talked about, that he tried to get nasty with her in the house. That’s what she said. But the only reason she was saying that was because she got 16 �caught, because she got caught. If she wouldn’t have gotten caught, she wouldn’t have even said [00:24:00] anything. But because she got caught, she had to say that. And then it was a man at the carnival that I remember. Then when we lived at 2117 North Bissell, the owner of the house lived in the basement. We lived on the first floor. Well, the lady, the owner downstairs, she had a brother. See, I didn’t know this, but my sister Jenny told me this. She says, “Daisy, I’m three years older than you. There was things that happened that you don’t know.” And I go, “Well, what happened?” “Well, don’t you remember the lady downstairs had a brother?” I go, “Yeah.” I always would see Mom talking to them, to him. JJ: So who’s telling you this? DJ: My sister Jenny told me. JJ: Jenny, okay. DJ: I would always see them talking but I never said anything until one day, I was going down the stairs. Jenny’s the one that told me this, that she was going down the stairs and she heard Mom tell the lady -- the owner of the house -- say, “Listen, tell your brother [00:25:00] that I can’t meet him tonight because so-andso wasn’t working,” or something, which was our father, and she couldn’t go. “Just make sure you tell him that I can’t go tonight.” I didn’t know what it was. Jenny told me and she goes, “Yeah, she was seeing him.” So that justifies probably all the arguing and all the fighting that was happening in our house when we were growing up. That’s what I’m thinking. I don’t know. But anyway, 17 �that’s why there’s a lot of resentment there. There’s resentment and the fact that my father died. JJ: So you resented that she was doing that? DJ: Because she taught us that you don’t do stuff like that, and what makes her any better than us? That’s how I see it. She taught us -- we were Catholic. We respect our husband. We do this. We do that. Whatever. Threw the whole Book. You can’t do this. This is bad. [00:26:00] Don’t French kiss, ’cause we did that. Don’t go out with a guy that has tattoos. When you get married by the Catholic church, you can’t get a divorce. That’s a sin. Unless you’re a widow, you can’t remarry. You know, all this sin and all this thing and all this Catholic church and all this for what? My father died, and two months after my father was dead, she was sending me a letter stating that she had a boyfriend. Two months after my father died. And she remarried seven months after my father was dead. She didn’t even wait a year. And then she had this huge wedding. JJ: And it’s custom to wait a year? DJ: At least custom to wear black. At that time, a widow wore black for a year. JJ: Wore black for a year? DJ: Yeah. And then you can do whatever you wanted and people wouldn’t say nothing. Everybody talked. She didn’t care. JJ: What do you -- talk -- DJ: Everybody talked [00:27:00] about her. JJ: So everybody knew? DJ: Why was she seeing a man when her husband wasn’t even cold in the grave? 18 �JJ: Everybody in San Salvado? DJ: Everybody. Everybody in San Salvador, her brothers and sister. My uncles on my father’s side. Everybody talked about her. We were all upset. And then we weren’t even part of her wedding, not even my younger sister. She threw my younger sister out of the house. She’s ready to get married. She still has a 17year-old living with her, which is my younger sister, 17-year-old living with her, so what does she do? My sister cuts class, goes to the beach with her boyfriend, some friend of hers sees my sister. When she gets home -- mind you, our dad’s already dead. She’s already preparing to get married -- she puts her house up for rent, a new house, because she says that she needed to get married because -- the necessity. How was she gonna eat? There [00:28:00] was food stamps. What makes her better than anybody else to take food stamps? There was factories. She was only 40-something. She could’ve gone to work. She wasn’t disabled. She could’ve gone to work. I told her to come and live with me and she didn’t wanna go to New Jersey. You know, Jenny told her to go live with her in Aurora, go back to Chicago, and she didn’t want her. Her excuse was -- we knew she just wanted to go to bed. She wanted to have a boyfriend. She wanted to get married. She didn’t care. So she goes. My sister cuts class. My younger sister cuts school. She tells her brother because my mother couldn’t go. She was ready to get married and she couldn’t walk ’cause she had had a broken leg right before the wedding, so she didn’t walk very well. She tells her brother, “I want you to take my daughter to her boyfriend’s house because she’s moving out. She is moving in with her boyfriend because she cut class and I 19 �don’t know if she’s a virgin now.” Those were her exact words and she threw my sister out of the house. JJ: [00:29:00] Because she didn’t know if she was a virgin? DJ: But she didn’t take her to the doctor either to see if she was a virgin. She just wanted to get rid of her because she wanted to start a new life with her new husband and she didn’t care about her. That is what it was. JJ: Okay, this is after Antonio died. DJ: Yes, this was after our father died. This was seven months after our father died. JJ: Okay, so then she’s marrying this new guy and she wants [him around?]. DJ: She wants to be very soft with him. She doesn’t want a 17-year-old girl in her life. She didn’t even ask her to be in her wedding. This is her daughter that lived with her. She didn’t ask her anything. That is why we’re all resentful. Those are things that you don’t understand because you didn’t live with us. So that happened. Anyway, that happened, that part of the life. JJ: (inaudible) you’re real angry. DJ: I’m still mad at her. We all are. [00:30:00] Joseph, this doesn’t go away. And then now on top of all this -- JJ: But she’s been living with you for how many years now? DJ: Three years and I’m still mad. JJ: For the last three years. DJ: And I’m still mad. JJ: So if she’s been living with you for the last three years and you’re angry, why is she living with you? 20 �DJ: Because nobody else wants her. Because nobody else wants to keep her fulltime. They made me quit my job, leave my kids to come to Puerto Rico when I was living in Florida. JJ: Why doesn’t she go with Jenny or something? DJ: Because Jenny all of the sudden now has Paget’s disease. Not all of the sudden, because she does have Paget’s disease. But she says she can’t deal with that and can’t deal with her appointments and can’t deal with this. So then I come here to Puerto Rico with no job, no nothing. JJ: Does she want to (inaudible) or no? DJ: My mother? JJ: Right. DJ: I don’t know. She’ll want to be with you. I mean, if you noticed, [00:31:00] she got up this morning thinking that she was gonna go hang out with you. I told her, “Mom, you’re going to the nursing home.” “Oh, I thought I was going with Jose.” I go, “No, Joseph is doing interviews today.” You notice that ever since you’re here, she’s with you. She gets up in the mornings, sits with you. When you’re not here, she doesn’t come in this house. JJ: So you’ve gotten less angry since she’s been with you or more angry? DJ: I’m the same. JJ: The same? DJ: I’m about the same because she also told me -- I understand she’s starting Alzheimer’s, but she also told my daughter -- my daughter says to her -- my daughter comes on vacation from Florida, says, “Grandma, when are you going 21 �to Chicago?” “Oh, I don’t know.” And my daughter says to her, “Well, you know, Grandma, you do have a daughter and a son over there. Maybe you should go visit and you can stay a couple [00:32:00] months because they are your son and daughters as well.” “Oh no, I’m staying here in Puerto Rico. This is my house here and your mother has to take care of me because I had her in my stomach for nine months and it’s her job to take care of me.” JJ: She told this to who? DJ: To my daughter. She told me that I had to take care of her because that was my job and that pissed me off more. So then that’s when I got on her case and I told her, “I take care of you because I wanna take care of you, because I can easily put you in a nursing home. If nobody wants to deal with you, I can put you -- but because I wanna take care of you, that is why I’m taking care of you.” JJ: So is she kind of controlling? DJ: She tries, but she can’t pass me. She tries to control me but I won’t let her. JJ: But she is controlling? DJ: Oh, she’s very controlling. JJ: How does she control? What does she control? DJ: Oh, she’ll say something like -- I have to take out her clothes. I go, “Here, Mom, here’s your clothes.” “I’m not wearing that.” And I go, [00:33:00] “Mom, I just spent 30 dollars on this outfit for you. You said you liked the outfit. You need to put it on because I don’t have money to keep spending to be throwing clothes away.” JJ: So she confronts one way or another. 22 �DJ: She likes to confront. She comes up and she says, “I’m not wearing it.” And then I’ll tell her, “Well, you either wear it or you’re not going to the nursing home.” JJ: What other ways is she controlling? Does she use guilt at all? DJ: Does she what? JJ: Does she try to make you feel guilty? DJ: No, she just swears. All of the sudden -- she never used to swear. That’s how I know it’s part of the Alzheimer’s. JJ: She didn’t used to swear? DJ: No, she told me to go to hell not too long ago. She told me, “Why don’t you go to hell?” Because she had eaten lunch at around 2:30 and it was only, like, four o’clock, and mind you, she had a big, huge lunch, and she wanted to eat again, rice. So I said, “No, I can give you [00:34:00] a piece of cake and milk or something, but you’re not having rice again, not a big bowl.” “Oh, you never wanna --” And I go, “Mom, you just ate.” “Oh, I wanna eat again.” I go, “Mom, you can’t keep eating. Look how heavy you are. You cannot continue to eat. You keep gaining weight and gaining weight.” “Oh, why don’t you just go to hell?” And I opened this door and I said, “Who did you tell to go to hell?” I go, “Not in my house.” I go, “This is my house and you respect --” “Oh, I didn’t say go to hell.” I go, “Now you’re calling me a liar?” So she does try, but I know some of it is the Alzheimer’s, so I try to control myself. I do and I try to control myself. But I do need you to help from time to time. I need Jenny to help because otherwise, I get angrier and angrier and angrier, you know? I wanna be with my kids and I 23 �have to see my kids at least twice a year. [00:35:00] The entire last year, I only saw my kids for eight days and it’s hard. JJ: And then you’re going through something (inaudible) [yourself?]. DJ: Yeah. JJ: What kind of stuff? DJ: Well, now I have some white lesions inside my left cheek all the way on the inside, but it’s taken most of my cheek. It’s called pre-cancer. It has to be removed and then it has to be watched every month. Every month, I have to go to a specialist, have it watched because there’s like 85 percent it’s gonna return, and once it returns, it could be carcinoma. It could be cancer. And there’s, like, 65 percent of the women that have this have never smoked, so I guess I’m one of the 31 percent that does smoke. This is very rare. It’s not like everybody has this. Women get it more than men but I was reading [00:36:00] on it. It said something about African women, women that came from Spain, family heritage from Spain. It has different things. JJ: Nationalities have more? DJ: Yeah, more that get this. JJ: But is it African? Could be Latino? DJ: I believe it said African and I know it said Spaniards. I know it said that. JJ: It’s the Moors. Yeah, the Moors were African. DJ: And out of five people, four of them are women, so it’s very low for men to get this. The risk is higher for women. And like I said, 65 percent of the women, they 24 �have never smoked, and 85 percent of the people, it’ll return again. I will get it later on. JJ: When you say it could, not that I want to be in denial, but they did say that sometimes if it comes back, it might not be cancerous? DJ: No, most of it. Most of the time when it comes back, they’ll find a cell that’ll be cancer. It’ll be cancerous. JJ: [00:37:00] But it’s something very serious. DJ: Yeah, it is serious, so you have to keep watching it and watching it all the time. What they mean with watching is all of the sudden, they’ll remove it now. If all the sudden they see one, they’ll do a biopsy on that one, and if it’s cancerous, then right away they’ll remove it and do whatever they can do to it. But yeah. So anyway, going back to all of this ’cause we changed back to Mother and all that. JJ: Yeah. I just wanna ask one more thing about Mom. Okay, at different times in her life, she was very religious. DJ: Yes. JJ: You think she was lying then or was she religious then? DJ: Well, she was religious then. But then because now she married three times -she’s been widowed three times. She’s a widow three times. What happens is that she doesn’t want us to talk about our father. If we mention our father, right away she talks about how he used to hit her, but I don’t remember that. [00:38:00] So she’s always talking bad about our father, always, always, so we don’t even mention him. But then her second husband -- and also she never had to take care of our father. Our father had a stroke in July and he died in August 25 �and he was in the hospital the whole time, so she never had to do anything for him. JJ: But her second husband? DJ: But her second husband that she wanted so bad after only seven months, she marries him and he was already, like, a year later turning blind because he had diabetes real bad. It just got worse and worse and then he got bedridden and he was bedridden, like, for 5, 10 years, something like that, and she had to take care of him. JJ: For 10 years. DJ: Yeah, she had to take care of him for 10 years. JJ: So she had no life? DJ: Exactly. And then he died, but see, that’s what she wanted. And then he dies and we had to have her come move over here because she had nobody over there in Caguas. So we had to have her move over here. I found her [00:39:00] a little apartment for people 65 or older. JJ: Senior citizens only? DJ: Senior citizens only. I found her like a little studio apartment. We set it all up. She had everything. She was very modern. She had all her stuff, so she was doing okay and she was fine. All of the sudden, she goes to the nursing home, started visiting the nursing home. The bus would pick her up. She’d go down there, play dominoes. They would bring her back. All of the sudden I go to her house after about a year. About a year, year and a half after going to the nursing home, all of the sudden I see her. “Mom, who painted your nails?” ’Cause I 26 �always offered and she was like, “No, leave them like that.” She was already in her seventies. She was, like, 72, 74. All of the sudden, another day, I see her eyebrows plucked. Never in her life had she ever plucked her eyebrows. [00:40:00] I’m working one day. A lady at the nursing home calls me. The administrator from the nursing home calls me because I know her. She says, “Daisy, did you know your mom’s getting married?” And I go, “What?” “Yeah, your mom’s getting married with so-and-so,” and I go, “Since when?” “Oh, she asked us if she can get married here. His daughter makes cakes, so she’s gonna do the cake here. The ceremony’s gonna be here. She said that she had her dress already. I didn’t know if you knew. I just wanted to make sure you knew. But it looks like she’s the one planning the whole wedding. It doesn’t look like he’s the one that wants it. It looks like she’s the one that wants to get married,” is what she told me. So I confronted her and I says, “Mom --” Then Jenny found out and Jenny was crying and she was upset and I was upset too. I go, “Mom, what are you doing? How can you say you’re gonna marry somebody? You don’t even know this [00:41:00] person. We don’t even know him. What if he’s a killer? What’s if he’s a drunk? What if he beats you up? You don’t know. What if he has AIDS? You don’t know. We don’t even know him. You met him in the nursing --” “Oh no, he’s fine.” And I says, “How do you know if he’s divorced?” “No, no, he’s a widow.” And I says, “Oh yeah, he’s a widow?” “Yes, he’s a widow.” And I go, “You know Jenny is crying, Mom. Jenny is sick and she’s crying. She’s got her blood pressure going up.” “I don’t care if she’s got her high blood pressure going up. I don’t care if she cries. I don’t care if she 27 �dies. I don’t care of anything. I am getting married and that’s it, and I’m old enough to make my own decisions and nobody has to get into my life. I can do what I want.” Those were her exact words. JJ: Why was she angry in that moment? DJ: Because she’s didn’t want none of us to get involved. She was doing all this hiding. We would’ve found out when she was already married. She didn’t include us in anything. It’s [00:42:00] like we don’t exist. But here she turns 82 and we have to exist because we have to watch her. Those are the things that I say that she’s being selfish about because she likes to be with the old people, senior citizens. She likes to play dominoes all day. She comes here to my house and as soon as she gets here, all she does is go in her room, watch TV, and sleep, and lie in her bed, so why can’t she do that at the nursing home? Why can’t she continue being with the seniors, have a good time with them? ’Cause they take them on trips and everything. When she’s tired, she can go in her room in the nursing home, go to bed, get up in the morning and play dominoes all day ’cause that’s all she likes to do is play dominoes. Here she doesn’t play dominoes. She doesn’t do nothing. But no, and I told her one day, I go, “Mom, all you do is sleep here. Why don’t you just stay at the nursing home and sleep there?” “No, because I don’t want to. I’m staying here. You’re supposed to watch me.” That’s what makes me so mad is because she -- JJ: So she says you’re -- DJ: [00:43:00] I have to watch her. Nobody else. I have to watch her. JJ: And that’s because of her tradition, her beliefs, and all that? 28 �DJ: That children are supposed to watch their parents. JJ: So that is because of her beliefs. DJ: Exactly. JJ: So she’s just following her beliefs. DJ: But that’s okay. But see, my mother is not -- JJ: Right now, that’s not the way reality is. DJ: Exactly. First of all, my mother’s never taken care of my kids ever. She doesn’t know how to be a grandmother. My kids don’t even know. They’ll say, “Oh, hi Grandma,” and that’s it. But they don’t have that love connection between a grandmother and their -- no, not with my mother. My mother never took care of any of our kids, none of them. They’ve never spent the night by themselves like a grandmother would have them, to baby them and all that. Uh-uh. And we’ve lived like that all our lives. That is probably why I’m angrier more, that why do I have to do this, you know? Why? [00:44:00] ’Cause she didn’t care about us before. She didn’t care, and mind you, she didn’t care about us till the age of probably 76, so it’s not like -- she just started her Alzheimer’s, like, a year and a half ago, but way before that, her mind was fine, so why was she treating us like that, you know? But anyway, that’s in the past. And like I said, we lived in Aurora, going back to the Puerto Rican Queen thing. And because my father -he was abusive that day, that Saturday right before the coronation. That Saturday, my boyfriend -- which is my husband -- was at the dance. I was at the dance. My two sisters were at the dance. But he was already my boyfriend. He visited me. We were standing in a circle. Standing, not sitting or holding hands. 29 �[00:45:00] Nothing. Just standing. It was like six or seven of us just talking. My father comes and sees me next to him talking. We were all talking together. “What are you doing?” I go, “Nothing, Daddy, we’re just standing here talking.” “You’d better not be standing there talking. You’d better get away from him unless I want you to go home.” I go, “Dad, but I’m not doing nothing.” And he says, “I told you to stay away from him. I’m taking you home.” He took us out of the dance. We got home and then he went back. JJ: How could he take you to the dance? DJ: He got us in his car. He says, “We’re leaving. Get in the car.” This was the week before. JJ: You had you and your -- DJ: My two sisters. This was the week before of the coronation. JJ: What did you tell your boyfriend? DJ: That I had to leave and then he got upset. So when we got home, my father went back to the dance and my boyfriend showed up at the house and my mom says, “Oh, you’d better go before he comes because he’s gonna get upset.” Well, my father went and got drunk. He got drunk and then came home that night drunk, [00:46:00] like at midnight, and when he came, he started yelling and my sisters were saying, “Daddy, stop yelling,” or whatever. “You shut your mouth, you little tramp.” And this and that. And then we were lying in bed and I remember he grabbed me by my hair and threw me on the floor. I’ll never forget that. I hit myself with the metal on the side of the bed. That was the first time he had ever hit me ’cause my dad never hit me. First time he had ever hit me. Then 30 �he was fighting in my mom’s room, not hitting her but just fighting. “Oh, this and that. You’re a bunch of tramps,” and this and that and all this. He just went on and on. My sister got up, older sister. “You’d better shut up and you’d better not lay a hand on anybody or I will call the --” “You call the police, you little bitch,” and this and that. That’s exactly how he was talking to her, but he was drunk. He was mad. He was drunk. I was crying so bad that night ’cause I was so upset ’cause he had touched me. He had never hit me. [00:47:00] And I was so mad and so mad. The next day, I go, “You will never touch me again.” My boyfriend, which is my husband now, calls me. “How can your father do this and that? And we’re not doing nothing wrong. I want you to elope with me.” All he had to do was tell me once. I wanted to get out of there. He told me once. We were planning it for Monday, but because Monday was a holiday, we couldn’t go on Monday. So then Tuesday was Columbus’s birthday, October 13th, 1970, Columbus’s birthday. I left, I got on a plane and went to New Jersey, and they were looking for me for three weeks until I finally called somebody. JJ: Who did you call? DJ: I called my mother because -- JJ: What’d she say then? DJ: “Are you okay?” And this and that, whatever. “I hope you don’t come here pregnant.” I go, “Well --” [00:48:00] But that, she didn’t know. So then that happened in October and in January -- but going back, before I eloped, when I was eloping that Tuesday, since I was running for Queen, that Saturday was the coronation. I knew I had already won. I had my dress in my closet and I left four 31 �days before the coronation. That was the biggest embarrassment my mother could’ve had and my dad could’ve had. They were saying that I had left, that they had already crowned me because I wasn’t gonna be a virgin, and all this and that. Oh, they talked. The whole town talked. I didn’t care. I lived in New Jersey. I wasn’t there. But it was all over, all over, all over that I had left. So they had no choice. They only had two girls running and they picked the other one that had sold the 1,200 tickets. So they crowned her. And then [00:49:00] from there -JJ: Okay, I’m not clear how you lost (inaudible). DJ: How did I lose the coronation? JJ: Can you repeat that? I’m not clear. DJ: Okay, I lost the coronation ’cause I left. I eloped four days before the coronation. JJ: So they had messed up the -- DJ: That messed the entire thing up. JJ: Oh, you eloped. You didn’t win -- DJ: I eloped. I wasn’t there. JJ: You weren’t there. DJ: So they continued. They did the crowning and everything, but I wasn’t there. But everybody was upset because everybody knew that I had won. They had already counted the tickets so everybody knew I had won. So then that happened. We went to New Jersey. I was there till -- yeah. Yeah, I was [over there?] to New Jersey, and then I came back in January. When I came back in January, I was pregnant then. I was two months pregnant. 32 �JJ: So you were there a few months in New Jersey. DJ: And then I came back. JJ: Okay. And you went back then to live in New Jersey? DJ: I went in 1972. [00:50:00] I went back and lived two years -- I hated it. I hated it, hated it. JJ: Where did you live [in town?]? DJ: In Jersey City. JJ: Jersey City, okay. DJ: New Jersey, and I hated it. I didn’t like it at all. JJ: What part of Jersey City? Was it divided by north and south sides? DJ: I don’t know. All I know is Jersey City is, like, the town, and the state is New Jersey. That’s all. ’Cause they have North New Jersey, Elizabeth, New Jersey -- JJ: Were you working there? Were you working at all? DJ: I started working, like, in a factory where they sewed coats but I didn’t like doing none of that stuff, so I just stayed home. I worked, like, for two weeks ’cause we had to be real fast and I was only 15. JJ: What other places have you worked? DJ: Have I worked? Then I started getting into the medical field. Then we left from New Jersey and we went back to Aurora and then in 1970 -- I got married in 1976. JJ: [00:51:00] So you’ve been married for a while, right? DJ: I’ve been living with my husband for 42 years. In 1976, we actually got married after being together for five and a half years, and my son was in my wedding and 33 �I had two boys at that time. And then in 1979, I started working at Dreyer Medical Clinic as an interpreter. I was the interpreter there and then from there, we came here to Puerto Rico in ’86. In ’86, I came down. I started working in (inaudible) in Caguas and then -JJ: What were you doing there? DJ: I was a supervisor of the billing department in the emergency room, which they’re actually called secretaries. I had 13 secretaries. [00:52:00] I had to do their shifts, like 3:00 to 7:00, 3:00 to 11:00, 11:00 to 7:00. JJ: You had to schedule them? DJ: I had to schedule them. I had to do their timecards. I had to supervise them, make sure one covered the other. We had to do that. I did that for six years. JJ: In Caguas? DJ: In Caguas. Then we decided we were moving to Florida. We were in Florida, like, for about two months, three months. JJ: What part of Florida? DJ: In Orlando. JJ: Orlando. DJ: But we were there only four months because I kept getting asthma attacks and asthma attacks and then we figured out it was because I had the dog inside the house. And the air and the vent, I was getting sick every day, so we had to come back to Puerto Rico. So we came back to Puerto Rico. We came to Camuy, this part of town, because that’s where my husband’s from. And we started building this house. We stayed here for 15 years, and all of the sudden, my kids were 34 �gone. I have four [00:53:00] kids -- two daughters, two sons. They were all gone, married, and they all have moved to Florida. My husband, after working here in Camuy -JJ: Where do they live? DJ: They live in West Palm Beach, Florida. JJ: West Palm Beach, okay. DJ: I’ve got two daughters in West Palm Beach, Florida. I have a son in Kissimmee, Florida, and I have a son that lives in Chicago. I started working here. I worked for 10 years, and all of the sudden, my husband one day says to me, “Let’s move to Florida. Why are we here? We have no kids here, we have no grandkids, we don’t have nobody here. We need to move.” So we moved to Florida where my kids were. I was there for six and a half years until all of the sudden, my mom’s third husband dies because she did get married in the nursing home that none of us went, so she’s a widow again. JJ: What type of person was he? DJ: [00:54:00] Like I said, they got married in September -- JJ: Was he a religious man? DJ: No. Then on top of this, I found out that he was divorced. He was never widowed. On top of this, my mother got married through a pastor from some Pentecostal church when we has been Catholic all her life. So that’s why my whole religion thing was like -- JJ: So he kind of took over her life at that point. DJ: Yes. 35 �JJ: Okay. DJ: But not even take over. The point is that she knew that she was supposed to marry somebody Catholic. She knew that she had to be married by the Catholic church. She knew that she couldn’t marry this man because he was divorced and not widowed, so she was committing all the sins in the book. But then she’s trying to preach to me and tell me that this is how life is? She said that God forgave her because of her age. Now, what does that have to do with it? JJ: [00:55:00] The Catholic church forgives when you go to confession. DJ: Yeah, but she didn’t go to confession. She went and married through a pastor from a Pentecostal church and we’re Catholic. JJ: So she was changing her beliefs. DJ: She was just doing it because she wanted to get married, and then she lied to us through the whole thing. You know, she lied to us. She told us that he was a widow. She did all this on purpose. And then now we have to deal with that. That’s what it is. So like I said, we lived six and a half years in Florida. When I was in Florida, I worked for Dr. [Wilbert Pino?], an orthopedic surgeon, and I was the surgical coordinator. That was my last job until I had to come here to take care of my mother. So I quit my job after six and a half years and come here, and this is where I am with my husband, dying to get up and leave, again, to Florida because I wanna be with my kids. So next week, [00:56:00] I will be taking a vacation to be with them and eventually, probably, I will end up living over there, and if nobody can take care of my mom, I guess I’ll have to take her 36 �with me, you know, here and there because I definitely have to be with my grandkids and my kids. I have to. JJ: Mainly because of what’s going on now with your life? DJ: With my life, with my face, with my illness. You know, what if something happens and I don’t see them? It’s hard. But that’s okay. Take one day at a time. And now I live here with my husband and my mom, and this is my story. JJ: Okay. (inaudible). END OF VIDEO FILE 37 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/20212cfc54134870ddfc1ebca7a039e0.mp4 918d82d1a11e767b1094e5069a274946 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Daisy Jiménez vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 2 Descripción Spanish language Description entry Daisy Jiménez o como la llamaba su padre, “La Prieta”, es una hermana de José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. Nació en el séptimo piso del Water Hotel en la calle Superior y La Salle Streets en Chicago, donde vivía su familia. Creció en La Clark medio Ohio y North Ave. , y luego en Lincoln Park donde ayudo a su mama a reclutar gente para misa en Español y dando rosarios para los Caballeros de San Juan y Damas de María. Después de vivir en Claremont y North Ave. Por unos años, la familia se movió ah Aurora, Illinois. Aquí conocieron a Teo Arroyo quien estaba organizando el primer desfilo Puertorriqueño en Aurora, y también era de Barrio San Salvado de Caguas. Daisy entro la carrera para ser Reina del Desfilo Puertorriqueño y gano. Ahora vive en Camuy, Puerto Rico con su esposo Israel Rodríguez y cuatro hijos. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Jimenez_Daisy_2 Title A name given to the resource Daisy Jiménez video interview and transcript, interview 2 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, Daisy Description An account of the resource Daisy Jiménez, or “La Prieta” as she was called by her father, is one of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez’s sisters. She was born on the seventh floor of what was the Water Hotel at Superior and La Salle Streets in Chicago, where her family was then living. She grew up in La Clark between Ohio and North Ave., and then in the Lincoln Park area where she helped her mother Eugenia go door to door recruiting Hispanos for Spanish mass and praying rosaries for the Caballeros de San Juan and Damas de María. After living on Claremont and North Ave. for several years the family moved to Aurora, Illinois. There they joined up with grassroots leader Teo Arroyo, who was also from Barrio San Salvador of Caguas, Puerto Rico and was organizing the first Puerto Rican Parade for that city. Daisy entered the contest for Puerto Rican Parade Queen and won. She has raised four children and today lives in Camuy, Puerto Rico with her husband, Israel Rodríguez. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-10 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e32790486f7770dad960ec68d122c299.pdf 930c9e18e8ffcbddfb9a938caa210791 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Daisy Jiménez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/16/2012 Biography and Description English Daisy Jiménez, or “La Prieta” as she was called by her father, is one of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez’s sisters. She was born on the seventh floor of what was the Water Hotel at Superior and La Salle Streets in Chicago, where her family was then living. She grew up in La Clark between Ohio and North Ave., and then in the Lincoln Park area where she helped her mother Eugenia go door to door recruiting Hispanos for Spanish mass and praying rosaries for the Caballeros de San Juan and Damas de María. After living on Claremont and North Ave. for several years the family moved to Aurora, Illinois. There they joined up with grassroots leader Teo Arroyo, who was also from Barrio San Salvador of Caguas, Puerto Rico and was organizing the first Puerto Rican Parade for that city. Daisy entered the contest for Puerto Rican Parade Queen and won. She has raised four children and today lives in Camuy, Puerto Rico with her husband, Israel Rodríguez. Spanish Daisy Jiménez o como la llamaba su padre, “La Prieta”, es una hermana de José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. Nació en el séptimo piso del Water Hotel en la calle Superior y La Salle Streets en Chicago, donde vivía su familia. Creció en La Clark medio Ohio y North Ave. , y luego en Lincoln Park donde ayudo a su mama �a reclutar gente para misa en Español y dando rosarios para los Caballeros de San Juan y Damas de María. Después de vivir en Claremont y North Ave. Por unos años, la familia se movió ah Aurora, Illinois. Aquí conocieron a Teo Arroyo quien estaba organizando el primer desfilo Puertorriqueño en Aurora, y también era de Barrio San Salvado de Caguas. Daisy entro la carrera para ser Reina del Desfilo Puertorriqueño y gano. Ahora vive en Camuy, Puerto Rico con su esposo Israel Rodríguez y cuatro hijos. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Give me your name, when you were born, your birthday. DAISY JIMENEZ: Daisy Jimenez. JJ: Okay. DJ: December 1st, 1954 in Chicago, Illinois. JJ: And what’s your relationship to the Young Lords? DJ: My brother was the president of the Young Lords. JJ: Okay. And your brother’s name is what? DJ: Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez. JJ: Okay. All right. All right. DJ: But I call him Joseph. JJ: Okay. Why do you call him Joseph? DJ: Because I always thought when I was growing up, that’s what his name was. They told me that his name was Joseph because in English, Jose is Joseph. And I grew up thinking that’s what his name, so I’ve always called him Joseph. JJ: But I mean, did his mother call him Joseph too, your mom? DJ: No, everybody else calls him Jose. I call him Joseph. JJ: Okay, because it’s in English? Is that why? DJ: Because it’s in English. JJ: Okay. Okay. And you were born where? Where were you born at? DJ: I was born in the Water [00:01:00] Hotel in Chicago on La Salle. I was born -- JJ: La Salle. Do you know where the street, or -- 1 �DJ: I’m not sure if it was Wells. I don’t know if it was in that area. JJ: Okay. Well -- DJ: Superior is what it’s -- it was Superior Street, exactly. That’s where it was at, located. JJ: And La Salle, Superior and La Salle. DJ: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. DJ: And I was born at the hotel because they had told my mother she could not have any more children. JJ: Who told her? DJ: The doctors, and she shouldn’t have any more children, so she still -- JJ: Why would he say that? DJ: Because she had already had -- with me, would’ve been probably eight pregnancies. She had lost a couple, had miscarriages, had one on a plane, had a son on a plane that died. JJ: Coming in from Puerto Rico? DJ: Coming from Puerto Rico. JJ: [00:02:00] Okay. DJ: Well, that’s what they told her at that time, that she shouldn’t be having any more kids, even though after me, she got pregnant another time, and that was the last time. It was for my younger sister. But she did have me. They didn’t want to take her in the hospital because she can sue the hospital if anything would happen, so they had all these issues about you couldn’t do this, you couldn’t do 2 �that. So when she was in labor, she had me. They called the hospital. A nurse came from the hospital and I was born at the hotel. JJ: Okay, so a nurse from the hospital took care of -- DJ: A midwife came to the -- JJ: Was that legal? DJ: Well, I think at that time, that’s what they used most of the time were midwives. [00:03:00] I’m not really sure, but I just know that they did use midwives at that time. JJ: I know they did that in Puerto Rico, but this was in Chicago. DJ: But I still think -- well, maybe a nurse, but I still think they used midwives. I really think they did. JJ: Okay. Well, they used them for you. DJ: Yeah, a nurse did me or a midwife or somebody because I was born at the hotel. JJ: You were born at the hotel in the bedroom. DJ: In the bedroom there, and my birth certificate is saying that my father’s name is Gregorio, which is -- my father’s name is Antonio, but I assume that’s because they probably asked, “What is the father’s name?” and they assumed they said “What is your father’s name?” because my father was not there at that moment. There was uncles and compadres that were there because they all lived at the hotel as well, but they all had their own little apartments. JJ: All your uncles [00:04:00] were -- DJ: Uncles. This was a hotel that when the people were living there, they actually were like little apartments. Like little studio apartments, I assume, is what it was. 3 �And all of our aunts and uncles and family members lived in this little hotel. And I guess when I was gonna be born, there was a lot of people there. My uncles or somebody was there. When they asked the name, they said Gregorio instead of Antonio. They used my mom’s maiden name instead of my dad’s last name, so my birth certificate is Daisy Rodriguez Jimenez instead of being Daisy Jimenez Rodriguez. JJ: Okay, so they got all the paperwork mixed up. DJ: All the paperwork mixed up. I have an affidavit that says I am the same person both ways with the same name. JJ: That’s probably ’cause most of the people, they didn’t speak English at that time, or? DJ: They didn’t speak English at that time, and at the same time is [00:05:00] I didn’t -- the first time I actually had a birth certificate, that I actually found my birth certificate, was when I was 16 years old. Before that, all I had was a little registration, [pink?] paper. Well, that’s when I eloped with my husband. JJ: At 15? DJ: At 15. And when I asked -- JJ: Who’s your husband? DJ: Israel Rodriguez. And when I asked my mom for my birth certificate ’cause I eloped and went to New Jersey, she sent me a little pink slip. Through that little pink slip, I had to find out the department where you get the birth certificates at. JJ: City Hall, you mean? 4 �DJ: No, there’s a name. Statistics. Vital Statistics, it’s called. [00:06:00] And I found out that I was born in Chicago. I put down on a letter that I was born in a hotel. I put all that information down and I put down my mother’s name and my father’s and they couldn’t find me. And then they sent me a statement with that number, with that little registry number. That’s the birth certificate I got, and when I looked at it, it had my grandfather’s name as being my father. JJ: So you were born in this hotel. Did you have other brothers and sisters there? DJ: I have two sisters and one brother. JJ: And they were living in the hotel also, in the same one? DJ: When we lived there, my brother lived there. My older sister lived there and I lived there. My younger sister was not born yet. JJ: Okay. And there were other family? DJ: And my uncles and other uncles. JJ: And their families were living there? DJ: And their families were there as well. JJ: And this was a hotel, not an apartment building? DJ: No, this was called the Water Hotel. JJ: And so they were like apartments that were kind of turned -- DJ: [00:07:00] I think it was -- JJ: -- turned into a -- DJ: I really think they -- JJ: -- studio apartments. 5 �DJ: Exactly, is what I’m thinking. I’m thinking that it had like a little kitchenette and actually it was probably a one-bedroom or something like that, a bathroom, and maybe a little area and a little kitchenette is what I’m thinking it would’ve been. JJ: Of course, you were young and -- DJ: No, I don’t know anything about -- this is all what my mother has told me. But I know that she did say we lived there. JJ: When do you start remembering Chicago? Was it when you -- how old were you when you start -- DJ: I remember when I did my first communion. I was four and a half. We were not allowed to do our first communion until you were five or six, but because my mother taught catechism -- JJ: Oh, okay, so your mother taught catechism where? In a school or -- DJ: No, at the house. JJ: What do you mean, at the house? DJ: Our apartment. We had an apartment, a first-floor apartment. JJ: On what street? DJ: I don’t know. That’s what I [00:08:00] don’t remember. I’m thinking of Fremont for some reason. If it was a one-bedroom, I’m thinking Fremont. JJ: Or Dayton? DJ: Or Dayton. It was Dayton or Fremont, one of those two. JJ: There were both. DJ: Mm-hmm. JJ: So she taught catechism? 6 �DJ: She taught catechism to a group of kids at the Catholic church, but I wasn’t allowed to be inside because I was too young. So they would have me outside and I was only able to stay outside playing while my mom would teach the catechism. But because I sat on the windowsill outside, I would hear everything that they were saying, so I memorized it all. JJ: So how many people were in the catechism? DJ: In the catechism, there could have been about 20 kids. JJ: About 20 kids. From the neighborhood? DJ: Mm-hmm, and we liked it because that was the day we all had cookies all the time. Every time the catechism kids came, Mom always had cookies, so we all had cookies all the time, and that’s what we did. And when the priest came, there was a day that the priest was supposed to come for a test and it was an oral test. You had to know everything, like the Our Father, the Hail Mary, the Apostle’s Creed. You had to know all that. The sign of the cross. You had to know all that by memory. And my mom, I told her I wanted to do my first communion. She said I couldn’t do it because I was too young. The priest said, “Well, let me see what she knows.” And I told them everything. So I was able to do my first communion at the age of four and a half years old. JJ: Because you were listening from the windows? DJ: Because I was listening to everything and I knew exactly. JJ: And so were these kids in public school or Catholic school? 7 �DJ: I think they were in public school because we went to Catholic school. When we started in school, we went to Catholic school and none of those kids were with us in school. JJ: Were they American kids? Black kids? DJ: They were all different nationalities. JJ: Different nationalities? DJ: They were Black. That was one thing that we grew up with, [00:10:00] Black, Hispanics, white, Mexican. We grew up with all of them, a mixture of all. JJ: Okay. But your mom, did she speak -- DJ: My mom spoke Spanish. JJ: So how did she teach the other kids that spoke English? DJ: She would teach them in Spanish. So I guess they would have all been Spanish, then. Yeah, because the catechism was in Spanish. JJ: It was in Spanish? Okay. Okay. But there were kids in the neighborhood -there was a mixed community? DJ: Exactly. JJ: That’s what I’m trying to say. DJ: Exactly. JJ: But the catechism was in Spanish because she didn’t speak English, then. DJ: No, she didn’t speak English very well, but then now that I’m thinking, all my prayers, I know them in English and not in Spanish. At my age that I am now, I know all them and more in English than I do Spanish. But that also could’ve been because I went to Catholic [00:11:00] school. 8 �JJ: What school did you go to? DJ: It’s either St. Joseph’s -- was it St. Joseph or St. Teresa's? JJ: Both, yeah. DJ: I only went to Catholic school till I was in fifth grade, from kindergarten till fifth grade because they couldn’t afford it and ’cause we were all in Catholic school and they couldn’t afford Catholic school anymore. So when I started sixth grade, sixth, seventh, and eighth, [phone dings] I went to Arnold. That’s my phone. I went to Arnold for sixth, seventh, and eighth grade, and that was -- JJ: Oh, you went to Arnold? DJ: Yeah, that was a public school. That’s when there was the riots with the Blacks and the whites. JJ: Yeah, what was that about? DJ: Oh, that was terrible. That was when my brother was in the Young Lords. That was the gang part. That was when a lot [00:12:00] was going on, and wherever you went, there was gangs here, there was Latin Kids here, there was Disciples here, Young Lords here, and you couldn’t walk down this block because that block didn’t belong to the Young Lords. And then my brother was the president, so it was like you either can say you were related or you couldn’t say you were related because you didn’t know. And he wasn’t in school with me, so he doesn’t know what I had to go through. You would go to school and people would look at you and say stuff like, “Oh, this is Cha-Cha’s sister,” something like that. And I remember there was a fight at one time, and my brother had a girlfriend. Her name was [LaVaughn?]. I’ll never forget. She was Black. Very pretty, very, very 9 �pretty. I remember him saying that was his girlfriend and then all of the sudden, [00:13:00] she was with some guy -- Black guy -- at a restaurant or some cafe or something. One of the other Young Lords told my brother that she was there with some guy. They went over there. They got into fights. Somebody ended up getting stabbed. The guy got stabbed. It was all over the news. It was all over all the newspapers and everything. When I went to school, “Oh, this is ChaCha’s sister.” I had denied. I quite denied it, and that hurt. Then I actually told somebody that he was my brother and it was only because I wanted to be protected ’cause I was afraid. And at the same time, [00:14:00] my mom went to court. The guy then -JJ: You said he was your brother or that he wasn’t your brother? DJ: I said that he wasn’t my brother, that I didn’t know who he was, and everybody kept saying, “Oh, yes.” There was one kid in school -- ’cause I never talked about my brother when I was there in school. And so there was one kid that knew, “Oh, this is --” And he was going all over the school and everybody was laughing and everybody was talking about it. I had to pretend I didn’t know anything. I left that day. I went home early. So that happened and my mom had to go to court. My mom went to court, and when they were in court, the guy that actually got stabbed looked at my brother and said, no, that my brother did not do that, that he did not stab him because he said that when he got stabbed, he felt where my brother [00:15:00] had punched him in the face. And at the same time, he felt the stab wound. That’s why they couldn’t accuse my brother of doing it. But then now, after so many years, I found out that, yeah, it was true. He did 10 �stab him. But I find this out when I’m in my forties. But all my life, I always felt that he had never done it, that he wasn’t involved with that. JJ: So there were, like, some kind of denial, not wanting to think that your brother would do something like that? DJ: That I couldn’t believe that my brother would actually do something like that. But because of how things were, though, you also would think, yeah, he would’ve done it. So is it true or is it not true? That’s how -- JJ: Why would you think that he would’ve done it? DJ: Because he was the president of the Young Lords. He had to show respect. I mean, [00:16:00] you have the Young Lords and if the president, that’s the one that’s making his gang strong, if he backs out of it, how does that make him look? He has to be the strong person in there so he can have his followers. Otherwise, they will take him out of being a president. So he had to always show that he was in charge and he did, and that’s how we grew up. But he was more or less to himself. He didn’t get us involved in his stuff with the Young Lords. We knew some of his friends, but we knew him as protection for us. That’s how it was. He would protect us. I remember there was a boyfriend I had. It was lunchtime. I was sitting in his car and I’m there and we’re having an argument right there, and here comes one of the Young Lords, this big [00:17:00] Black -- his name was [Lacy?] -- comes up and sees me. Now he knocks on the window. “What are you doing in that car?” I had to beg him so he wouldn’t tell my brother that I was in that car, or my brother would beat the shit out of my boyfriend. And mind you, I shouldn’t have even had a boyfriend. I was only 13, so I shouldn’t have even 11 �had one. But that's the respect that everybody had for my brother. They were protective. JJ: So you went out with Lacy? You used to go out with Lacy? DJ: No, Lacy saw me with my boyfriend. JJ: Oh, with your boyfriend. DJ: And I was afraid that Lacy was gonna tell you and then you would beat up my boyfriend, so I told -- JJ: (inaudible)? DJ: That’s probably [Melissa?]. I made Lacy promise that he wouldn’t tell you. I said, he goes, “I won’t tell him, but you’d better get out of that car right now and go back to school.” JJ: So there were other people watching you. DJ: Everybody was watching us. Everybody would watch us. Everybody. Even though we [00:18:00] weren’t walking down the street with the Young Lords or anything, but on every corner, there was one on your way to school because that was our area and that’s where they would hang out. So since they were hanging out, that’s how it was. JJ: And this was your area. Where was that? DJ: This was on Bissell Street, Fremont, and between Armitage, Sheffield, all that area. In all that area. JJ: And this was about what years? DJ: This had to have been, like, in ’66 ’cause I would’ve been, like, 11, 12 years old, 13 years old. Sixty-six, ’67. 12 �JJ: Okay. Going back to La Salle Street for a little bit, what do you remember about your father, Antonio? DJ: There, I don’t remember. I don’t remember hardly nothing ’cause that’s when I was born, so I was really -- JJ: When do you start remembering [00:19:00] things? DJ: I remember, like I said, when I was four and a half and I did my first communion. JJ: Okay, but I’m talking about Antonio specifically, Antonio Jimenez, your father. DJ: There are things that you remember and you don’t forget certain things in your house. I remember living in a basement and I don’t remember the street. JJ: That was La Salle. On La Salle Street? DJ: It was a basement that had a two-bedroom, a small living room, and a kitchen, and the bathroom was inside the kitchen, and we had ducks inside the tub. And there, I was, like, eight years old ’cause I remember I had gotten the mumps and it was very rare for kids to get it. Or I don’t know if it was rare, but I was the only one in my family to get the mumps and I remember that they didn’t know what was wrong with me. My face was all swollen up and I had all these hives. And my mom called the ambulance. [00:20:00] The ambulance picked me up and the people in the ambulance didn’t want me to even lie down on the bed because it was contagious. And they took me to the hospital and they sent me back home saying that I had the mumps and I specifically remember because in that apartment, some next-door neighbor across the street gave us all these ducks and we wanted them as pets. We all slept in the same room, my brother and all of us. We had two full-size beds and all of us slept in one room and my mom and 13 �dad in the other. And I remember specifically about one day that my mom, that day with the ducks, because my father -- how would I say this word in English? Machista? JJ: Machista? Macho. DJ: He was very macho, [00:21:00] and that’s what they said or whatever. JJ: What do you mean, he was macho? What do you mean? DJ: Because that’s what they said. JJ: Okay, that’s what they said, but what did you see? DJ: What did I see? Well, because my dad would take my mom’s check away. My mom would work. He would take her check. She didn’t own the check. She would have to work but she didn’t own the check. JJ: I mean, what do you mean, he would take -- DJ: He would take her check. Friday is payday. Friday, give me the check, and she would have to hand over her check to him. But there was always food in the house. That’s one thing I can always say, that he made sure that we had food, and bills and stuff like that were paid always. That, always, always. And I’m not talking about a cupboard with just a little bit of food here, a little bit of -- my father always believed in having a lot of food and a lot of meat inside that freezer, always. But I remember specifically that Friday, my mom went grocery shopping and they had these little vans that they would bring the people home with their groceries, and the guy slammed the door, and when he slammed the door, [00:22:00] he smashed my mother’s finger on the door. My mom came home crying with a swollen finger and it was killing her and killing her and she didn’t 14 �know what to do. My dad was out with his friends, which they would call -- it was like a little Spanish gang called the [Hacha Viejas?] and he was with them and he comes home, like, at 2:00 in the morning and my mom’s crying and he made her get up out of bed to cook for all these men because that’s what men did at that time. The husbands would go out with their friends, come home, and they’d expect the wives to get up out of bed and do all these things. That was at that time. JJ: These were Hacha Viejas? DJ: Yes. JJ: Old Hatchets. DJ: Yeah. JJ: That was a gang at that time. DJ: That was a gang at that time. JJ: That he belonged to. DJ: Mm-hmm, and this is what I remember of them. I won’t forget that incident ’cause I remember my mom holding up her finger and crying and frying pork chops at the same time. [00:23:00] And this and that, and crying, and over and over and over, and he wouldn’t -- “No, hurry up and cook this.” And I remember him going to the bathroom and the ducks were there. They were all quacking. And my mom says, “Your father’s gonna kill you,” and this and that. And then we had to get rid of the ducks the next day. Those are the things I remember of my dad, stuff like that. I remember going with my dad to the South Side. That was the best times of my life. That, I’ll never forget. 15 �JJ: So, what? DJ: We used to take two buses to go to the South Side because my dad would go buy [coats?]. He had three girls and he would buy coats. But let me go back. Let me go back before getting to that part because I’m gonna tell you an incident with my brother when he was still with the Young Lords as a gang. They were looking for him. The cops were looking for him. My brother showed up. He would take off for days and come show up. There was a time [00:24:00] when my brother got arrested, like, 20 times, one day after another, 20 times in a row because they kept telling him the curfew was to be at home at ten o’clock and he always had to be home at 10:15, 10 after, 10:30. On his way home? He would be on his way home. The cops would stop him. At that time, I would think, how stupid were the cops at that time? I really think they were stupid because they would come to my house. First, they would take my brother. They were not arresting him. They were picking him up because everybody was under a curfew. They would pick him up, take him to the police station, but then they’d have to drive all the way to my house, pick up my mother to go take her to the police station to pick up my brother and bring them both back. Now, wouldn’t it be easier just for the cop to go and take him home? [00:25:00] Instead of going through that whole ordeal? My mother did that, like, 20 days in a row, day after day after day after day. That stuff started to get old because my brother, it didn’t matter, he was still always walking home after ten o’clock. He was never home at ten o’clock. So I remember that and those instances at that time. I remember when I found my brother smoking for the first time. He was 16. He thought he 16 �was all cool with his Young Lords and his big old friends and everybody, and my mom saying -- that was one of the days that my mom was looking for him because he was supposed to be home before curfew. My mom says, “No, I’m gonna go get him. I’m gonna go get Jose.” So I was always volunteering to go with my mother everywhere. When she would take me, I would go. A lot of times, she didn’t want me to go. So I went and here we’re walking down the street and we’re going closer. We’re getting closer and I see my brother from far away. We’re walking. [00:26:00] He almost ate the cigarette. He took that cigarette. When he saw my mother, he about dropped dead. He dropped that cigarette so quick but I already knew he was smoking it because the smoke was coming out of his nose. But my mom totally ignored it, of course, because out of all of this, my brother is my mother’s favorite son. That’s the only son she has, so even though she had three daughters, my brother was always the baby of the family. She always overprotected him. JJ: So do you think that your brother, or, you know, that -- you could say me or whatever. It doesn’t matter. But do you think that he was afraid of your mom or was it more like feeling guilty? You know, because he tried to eat the cigarette at that time, right? DJ: I think he was just doing it out of respect. JJ: Okay. What do you mean by that? DJ: Out of respect because we knew he was too young to be smoking, but in my house, my mother and father [00:27:00] both smoked, and my mother would’ve forgiven him anyway. It didn’t matter what she caught him doing. She would’ve 17 �forgave him anyway because whatever he did, she always forgave him, always, always, always. JJ: So it was respect, something -- DJ: I think most of it is respect. JJ: Was that an important thing for your brother? DJ: Oh, that’s very important. At that time when we were growing up, you had to have respect. We have to have respect for our adults. When you go past in front of them, you say excuse me. It’s a big thing. You have to. You bow your head down when you’re walking between two people. That’s how we were raised. You need the TV off? Should I get up, stop it -- (break in audio) DJ: Oh, the respect, because when Puerto Ricans or Latinos -- I don’t know all Latinos, but Puerto Ricans -- when two people like us, that we’re sitting right now facing each other, if someone’s gonna walk in front of us, we have to bow our heads [00:28:00] down lower than their faces. That’s out of respect. We just don’t walk straight up with, you know, straight and just walk straight across them, not even say excuse me. No, we bow our heads down and we go underneath their heads. That’s respect. That’s how we were taught. JJ: Who taught you that? DJ: We were taught that by our parents. JJ: Right, who? DJ: By my mother and my father. JJ: Your father too? 18 �DJ: Mm-hmm. JJ: So he would say that too, that you’ve gotta -- DJ: We have to respect, yeah. JJ: You have to respect older people, stuff like that? DJ: Mm-hmm. JJ: So even though your brother, or I was in a gang, and I’m the leader of the gang at that time, and I have to fight and whatever, there was still the thing about respecting your parents? DJ: Oh yes. JJ: It wasn’t being afraid, it was just respect? DJ: Yeah, it’s not being afraid. JJ: ’Cause today, kids don’t respect their parents. DJ: No, and exactly, and that’s why now today now -- JJ: But you’re saying at that time, it was big. DJ: Oh, [00:29:00] you have kids. My children, they will walk underneath like that. My children will say excuse me. My children know better than to say something to an adult, somebody older than them. They know better. They know that that is not allowed. And they’ll even tell me, “Mom, I’m only doing this because out of respect.” Because they know that’s how I was taught and that’s how I taught them. You respect your elders. It doesn’t matter if you like the person, if you don’t like the person, if you don’t wanna talk to them. I don’t care. And just like education, you don’t have to have a college education to walk into a room and say good morning. You walk into the room, it’s your job to say good morning 19 �because you’re the one that walked into the room. The people that were there were already there. So that’s respect and that’s what they do. But yeah, that’s how it was, and that instance [00:30:00] was -- that part about the cigarette and the time that the police were looking for my brother. JJ: Okay, what was the (inaudible), the police? DJ: The police were looking for my brother. I don’t remember for what, but I know they had gone to our house and they were looking for him and they couldn’t find him or whatever. And then one day out of the blue, my brother comes in through the alley. He sees my sister talking to some guy and he thought that the guy was trying to get nasty with her or something like that, but they were just friends. It wasn’t nothing like boyfriend or girlfriend, nothing like that. And then they were gonna get into a fight. A big mess happened. The cops came. So they were looking for my brother anyway. They went and grabbed my brother. They handcuffed him. But then they started taking his head and banging it on the cement out in the street [00:31:00] on the sidewalk, just would lift his head and bang it down, lift it, and my older sister -- my mom went in there. She tried to get the cops away from him and they wouldn’t. They kept saying, you know, “Take him. If you’re gonna arrest him, just take him. Why are you doing this? Why are you hurting him like this? He’s in handcuffs. He can’t move.” And my older sister went and she put her hands underneath his head and his face so they wouldn’t keep smashing his face on the cement and one of the cops just took his hand out and backslapped her on the face and knocked her clear across. And at the end, they all got arrested, my mother, my brother, my sister. My father was 20 �working and my younger sister that was at that time 10, and I was 11, we were left by ourselves. And that was the cops. JJ: So your mom got arrested? DJ: My mom got arrested. My sister got arrested. We even had the priest from the church [00:32:00] go down to bail my mother out. We had everybody from the Catholic church bailing my mother and my sister out, and all this time my father was working. He didn’t even know what was going on. JJ: What do you mean, everybody -- DJ: Everybody in the community got together because everybody was there. They saw it. JJ: (inaudible) hearing? DJ: The whole community. The whole block came out. Everybody knew. My brother was already in handcuffs. There was no reason for them to be hitting him or punching him or slamming his face on the ground. There was no reason for that. JJ: So this was, like, a neighborhood incident where everybody came out and everybody took the side of -- DJ: Of my brother and my mother. JJ: Oh, your mother. DJ: My mother. JJ: Okay, there was a big -- DJ: Yeah, because they were still looking for my brother anyway, so that was fine, but they already had him. They didn’t have to do that. JJ: And what happened after that? 21 �DJ: No, then they went to court and my mom had to go to court. My sister had to go to court. They let my mom go after the priest [00:33:00] and my uncles went down there and got them out of jail. Then they went to court and they said that my mom knocked a tooth out of the cop during the incident or whatever. JJ: How did -- DJ: We don’t know. They said that she hit him in the face, and she was like, “How could I hit you in the face?” Not even the judge believed it, so they dropped everything. They dropped the charges or whatever. JJ: On your mother? DJ: Yeah, and my sister, ’cause they already knew they did more abuse on my brother by hitting him when he was handcuffed ’cause everybody was there ready to testify that my brother was handcuffed, and why were they beating him? Because he was the president of a gang? That’s not why they should’ve done that. JJ: So that’s when you felt that there was no reason they were beating him ’cause he was president? DJ: I think so. I think they were abusing more because he was the president of the Young Lords versus just somebody that they were looking for. They could’ve just stopped, grabbed him, [00:34:00] and handcuffed him and put him in the patrol car. JJ: Okay, now, this is when the Young Lords were a gang, but you knew some of these people. I mean, what did you think about some of these people? DJ: Nowadays? 22 �JJ: At that time, what did you think? DJ: Oh no, at that time, oh, I was all proud. I mean, we’re walking with the Young Lords. This is a gang. Everybody had to belong. So you belonged to something, even though we weren’t allowed. JJ: Even though a gang is a bad thing. DJ: Exactly. But there was gangs everywhere, so it didn’t matter. So they had the Young Lords. They had the Disciples. They had the Latin Kings. So somebody belonged to some gang on any block, so it didn’t matter. There was not one block where there wasn’t gang people. JJ: So you’re saying it was actually a good thing to be in a gang? DJ: No, I can’t say that. I can say it’s a good thing for protection, but not a good thing to think that you could hurt other people by being in a gang. But then also [00:35:00] I know that they -- JJ: But there was some benefit that your brother was in a gang? DJ: There was benefits because we were protected all the time. JJ: Protected from what? DJ: Protected from other gangs. You were not allowed to go to another block. If the next block -- or three blocks down, it was the area for the Young Lords. It was the area for the Latin Kings and you’re a Young Lord, you’re not allowed to walk down that street. They catch you, they will beat you up. That’s how it was. JJ: You mean that you weren’t in the gang? DJ: Exact-- well, no, no, if you weren’t in the gang, you could walk down there, but if you were in a gang -- I mean, they each had their colors. Everybody had their 23 �colors. You wore purple and black, those were Young Lords. Yellow and black, that was Latin Kings. Disciples, I believe they wore red and black. So it was like everybody had their colors and everybody had to respect their colors. I mean, that’s all it was. And not necessarily they would actually all beat each other up because there was people from Latin Kings [00:36:00] and the Disciples that knew some Young Lords and they didn’t have no conflict with each other. They respected each other. But when it came down to, okay, this one got beat up and we have to beat up, everybody got into it. The whole gang was into it. So that’s what it was. JJ: Even other people that weren’t in gangs that were around, they got into it too? DJ: Yeah. JJ: So it was like a neighborhood -- DJ: It was a lot of neighborhood. JJ: It was like a neighborhood thing and then the gang -- DJ: And then the gang was in there, so they had the gang, like, being their protectors. The gang was like the police station, let’s put it that way. The gang is the police station and everybody else is just the civilians. So these civilians would count on the gang for protection. That’s how I saw it. Everybody else probably didn’t see it that way, but that’s how I saw it. JJ: So these civilians are living in an area [00:37:00] where the gangs are the policemen? DJ: More or less. More or less, that’s how it was. JJ: And [they were?] soldiers, whatever. 24 �DJ: Whatever, exactly. JJ: And they’re in their community and they feel safe in their community. DJ: Exactly. JJ: I’m not putting words in your mouth, okay. DJ: No, that’s exactly how it is, or how it was at that time. And then it turned into an organization. JJ: Okay, before we get into the organization, what was it like growing up in the same -- Bissell Street? DJ: Oh, I loved Bissell Street, but that was just because I like boys, so I was -- JJ: Explain that, then. DJ: At the age of 12, I already liked boys, so at 12, 13 -- they could send me to the store 100 times -- JJ: What do you mean, you liked boys? DJ: I liked boys and I liked older boys. I didn’t like no 12-year-old. If I was 12, I liked a 14, 15-year-old, 16-year-old. [00:38:00] Actually that boyfriend that Lacy caught me with, talking in the car, he was actually 18 and I was 13. I never had a boyfriend in school. In school, I never had a boyfriend. I’ve had three boyfriends in my life. One is my husband. Two other boyfriends before that. And they were all between the ages of 13 and 14. One at 13, one at 14. And then my husband at 15. JJ: Why did you seek out other older -- DJ: Because I considered myself, that the kids that were in school were like little kids. My mind was always way up, higher up than my age. I was always thinking 25 �ahead. I was always stronger. And that’s how I still am and that’s how I’ve always been. I’ve always been stronger and you have a problem, [00:39:00] you deal with it. You can’t fall apart because if you fall apart, who’s gonna take care of the problem? So that’s how it was. I liked boys and it wasn’t that I had a lot of boyfriends ’cause I actually only had three, but they all were like a year. This boyfriend was my boyfriend for a whole year and then we moved somewhere else and then from there, then I had a boyfriend from there for another year until we moved to Aurora, and then that’s where I met my husband. But no, that’s how. I always wanted a boyfriend that had a car and that had a job. I was not into having no little boyfriend that cannot buy me a candy, that cannot buy me for Valentine’s Day some candy or flowers or whatever. No. I wasn’t into little kids. I wanted older guys that can work and pay for it. If I wanted a gift, I wanted to make sure I got a gift. [00:40:00] That’s how I always was. And I was always at the store. I mean, they would send me 20 times and 20 times I’d be volunteering to go to the store. JJ: Who would send you? DJ: Oh, my mom, my dad, or whatever. “Oh, go get this.” JJ: So you would run the errands? DJ: I was the one that ran all the errands all the time, all the time, all the time. JJ: And so you would go to the store and the boys would be there -- DJ: Oh, I’d go to the store 20 times just to -- I would break pencils -- JJ: Just to go to the store so you -- DJ: -- to buy another pencil. 26 �JJ: So you weren’t worried about them whistling. You were going there to get with somebody. DJ: Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. I always wore my little tight pants. I wore my little shirts. That’s how I was when I was growing up. But I was always respected. I never let anybody touch me, that part. I knew what was allowed and what wasn’t allowed, what was good, what was bad. I knew that. JJ: Now, how could you prevent -- there’s all these gang [00:41:00] members out there. How can you prevent them from touching you or -- DJ: All I had to do was say that I was Cha-Cha’s sister. That’s all I had to say. “Don’t look at her, that’s Cha-Cha’s sister.” None of the Young Lords were allowed to look at us other than being friends of my brother’s and we didn’t have a lot of them as friends of ours. The gang was a very big gang but they were only allowed, like, maybe four or five -- JJ: What do you mean, a very big gang? DJ: It was a big gang. It was a lot of people. It was a lot of guys in the gang and a lot of girls in the gang, but -- JJ: There were a lot of girls in the gang? DJ: There was girls in the gang as well. But we were only allowed to know a certain amount. JJ: So this gang, the Young Lords, were in several blocks or something like that? DJ: Mm-hmm. JJ: And so they were kind of all in the neighborhood? DJ: Mm-hmm, [00:42:00] they were. 27 �JJ: And they knew that you were related? DJ: Exactly. They knew who was whose sister, whose sister was whose, and everybody knew each other. JJ: So everybody knew each other. So other people’s sisters were respected too? DJ: Yeah, it wasn’t just us. It was other people’s as well. “Oh, this is so-and-so’s sister. This is so-and-so.” Yeah, that’s how it was. JJ: So it wasn’t just like a gang on one corner. These were people respecting each other’s family members at that time. DJ: At that time, they were. JJ: We’re not talking about the gangs today. Was there any difference? DJ: No. No, because the differences at that time, it was more that they were trying to help people. JJ: The gang? DJ: The gang was like -- I mean, there was certain gangs -- JJ: This is before they were -- the gang -- DJ: Even before they turned into an organization. It was like, no, they tried to help, you know. JJ: How would they help? DJ: I remember [00:43:00] something about a church. I remember there was a church. JJ: But that was when it was political. DJ: That it was political, uh-huh. JJ: But I’m saying before that. 28 �DJ: Before that, they would just hang out on corners and stuff like that, but they would just watch for each other. That’s all, what it was, and they wouldn’t actually go out and look for a problem. They would have problems because the other gangs would go into your territory when they knew they weren’t supposed to. And they would start looking for fights and stuff like that. But not because they would just go automatically out there. And when my brother got picked up those 20 every day, he wasn’t doing nothing bad. He was coming home. Just that, it was not because he didn’t listen to the policeman, told him, “You need to be home in the house at 10:00, not walking home at 10:00.” And that’s why he got picked up. They didn’t follow rules is what it was. JJ: So there was a big curfew at that time. DJ: There was a big curfew. It was a big riot as well when I was 12 years old with the Blacks against the whites, [00:44:00] humongous. My father had to go pick us up at school for a week because we were not allowed to leave the school. JJ: Because there were riots? DJ: There was a riot with the Blacks against the whites. Not with the Hispanics. Hispanics can go down the street with no problem and the Blacks were not touching them and the whites were not touching them, the Hispanics. But it was Blacks against the whites. And the school, it was on lockdown. You were not allowed to go out of the school until your parents came to pick you up after school. JJ: This was at Arnold? DJ: That was at Arnold. 29 �JJ: Okay. Did you ever go to Waller? DJ: My sister went to Waller. I never got to go to Waller. JJ: You just went to grammar school? DJ: No, we moved is what it was, so I didn’t go to that, to Waller. I graduated from eighth grade, from Pulaski School. JJ: From Pulaski School? Okay, so you were on the West Side, okay. DJ: At that [00:45:00] time. JJ: Pulaski was where, do you remember? DJ: No. JJ: Okay, you don’t remember what direction it was in? DJ: No. We walked like 10 blocks to get to the school because we had just moved there and we actually -- JJ: You walked on North Avenue or something like that? DJ: When we lived with -- Claremont -- JJ: Claremont, okay. DJ: -- we would walk down Claremont. We wouldn’t go towards North Avenue. We would go the other way. JJ: Oh, okay. DJ: We would go that way down. JJ: North, you went north. DJ: Yeah, like about four or five blocks down. JJ: (inaudible) around there. DJ: Exactly. 30 �JJ: Okay. Now, so you were living on Claremont. Okay, but before that, you lived on Bissell and Dickens? DJ: That was where the cops had arrested Mom and my sister, all that. That’s when you were -- JJ: That’s when we became political [later?]. DJ: Exactly. JJ: [00:46:00] Okay. Now, but before that, why did you move from there? You lived there for a while, right? DJ: On Bissell Street? JJ: Yeah. And what do you remember about Bissell Street besides that? DJ: Playing with our friends outside. We played a lot of Chinese jump rope, hopscotch. I did babysitting. I babysat two little girls. I did that as well. JJ: Wait a minute, it was 2117 Bissell? DJ: Twenty-one seventeen Bissell, North Bissell Street, and oh my God, [Johnny?]. Johnny, Johnny, Johnny. I was in love with that boy. He lived upstairs on the second floor. JJ: When we lived at 2117 -- DJ: He lived on the second floor. JJ: Johnny. Do you know his last name? DJ: No. He was white. He was a white guy. JJ: (inaudible) you was in love with Johnny? DJ: Oh, I was, and oh, he was so cute and he would drink Dr. Pepper and I would go to the store and buy him his Dr. Peppers and bring them to him and everything. 31 �He knew I liked him but he was too white. [00:47:00] He was too old. I was only 10 or 11 at that time, but oh, I thought I was in heaven every time I would see him. That, I remember of Johnny. JJ: So you played hopscotch. You had Johnny. DJ: Johnny. Chinese jump rope. JJ: Okay. Anything else that you remember? DJ: No. JJ: That’s when you were going to St. Teresa's, right? When you were in Catholic school, what school were you in then? DJ: I guess we had finished because then I went to sixth and seventh at Arnold. JJ: So what was Arnold like? That’s not Catholic. DJ: No, Arnold, that’s when I started the public school. That’s where the riots were. That’s where it got scary. I remember I would buy my dad -- JJ: So across the street from Waller High School? DJ: Yes. My dad would give us two dollars and fifty cents for lunch for the week. He would give it to us every Sunday, and of course, I wouldn’t eat because I liked music. JJ: What kind of music? DJ: [00:48:00] Everything. Spanish, English, Motown, anything. I would dance to everything. And what I would do is I would take all my money, all my lunch money, and I would buy records, the little 45 records. So that’s what I always used to do. And then the hot dog stand was there. One time, if I would get hungry, I would buy -- 32 �JJ: Where was that hot dog stand? DJ: On Halsted. JJ: And Dickens? DJ: Uh-huh, on Halsted and Dickens. JJ: So you were going there? DJ: I would go there and I would love their hot dogs with the French fries, greasy French fries all wrapped up and put them in a paper bag. You would get a bag of fries for a quarter and that was enough to fill you for lunch. For 50 cents, you would get the hot dog and fries, for 50 cents at that time. JJ: Did other people go there? I mean, other Hispanics? DJ: A lot of people. JJ: Okay, a lot of Spanish people went to that place? Okay, so you lived on 2117 Bissell. DJ: And then from there, we moved to (inaudible). JJ: You had a pretty good -- any other experiences that you [00:49:00] remember there? DJ: No. JJ: Okay. And then all of the sudden, you moved from there. Why? DJ: We moved because the owner on Claremont were a family or compadres of our father and mother and they had an empty apartment and we moved over there. JJ: But why would you leave a place that you liked, that was [well away?]? DJ: Because it’s all about what the dad says. We’re moving and we’re moving and that’s it. 33 �JJ: So Dad said we’re moving. DJ: We’re moving and we moved. They didn’t care how we were doing in school. They didn’t care. I would do my dad’s homework. JJ: Okay, you did your dad’s homework. DJ: When we lived on Bissell Street, my dad was going to school at night, learning how to speak English. I would do all his homework. He had all his homework done every day for him to take to school. JJ: So he wouldn’t learn any English, then. DJ: But he did. He did. He did learn. JJ: Why was he learning English? DJ: [00:50:00] I have no idea. I don’t even know why he was going to school. JJ: What did he do, your dad, Antonio? DJ: He worked. JJ: What did Dad do? DJ: My dad used to work nights. JJ: Where did he work? DJ: That, I don’t know. JJ: He used to work nights. DJ: I don’t remember. He worked nights and he would cook and we loved Fridays because Fridays was fried eggs and French fry day and Pepsi day. JJ: Fried eggs? DJ: Fried eggs with homemade French fries and a 16-ounce Pepsi because it was a day that he would do grocery shopping. He would go grocery shopping in the 34 �morning and he wouldn’t have time to come home and cook. My dad would cook every day, so my dad would work nights. Before he would go to work, he would have dinner ready. He would cook it at twelve o’clock so that when we got home from school, dinner was already done and ready. When my mom would come home from work, dinner was already cooked, and my dad would be at work [00:51:00] ’cause he would work second shift and get out. He would work 3:00 to 11:00. JJ: So he would (inaudible) and Mom worked during the day? DJ: During the day. So then he would go and -- JJ: Now, was that enough to pay the bills, or everybody lived good? DJ: They never gave us money. They had issues about that. But my father always had money in the house. If there was an emergency, he had money. At that time, people would always have 2, 300 dollars in a sports coat in a pocket. That was the bank. They would keep their money in a pocket. An emergency all of the sudden would happen, they had their money there. JJ: What kind of discipline did your dad use? DJ: For us? JJ: Did he yell? Did he make you feel (inaudible)? DJ: For us, not that much. He used to hit my brother. JJ: Okay. So he used to hit me, then. DJ: Yeah. JJ: So how would he do that? 35 �DJ: But he wouldn’t hit [00:52:00] you all the time, but when he would hit you, he would hit you hard. He would actually hit hard when he would hit you. JJ: Punch or? DJ: No, he would hit you with whatever. I remember him breaking a broomstick on you for stupidity because he told you to put the dishes inside the sink, but he used a different word and you didn’t know what he meant with the word he said in Spanish and you didn’t put it on, so he got mad and hit you. Then you had ice skates. You would hide them behind the refrigerator. He didn’t want you with that. He kept saying that Mom would baby you, which was true because Mom babied you. You know, that’s what the thing was. You were like Momma’s little boy and I guess he didn’t like that. Because now growing up, us, we sit down and I think of my mom and everything and we feel like she didn’t really want us. JJ: What do you mean? DJ: Us daughters. My mom did not like daughters. [00:53:00] She liked her son. My mom would leave us with our brother and my brother used to beat the shit out of us for no reason because he was born machista. So it was what he said. JJ: So your brother was a macho too? [That’s where he stands?]. DJ: And he thinks he still is, though, but I control him. (laughter) He still thinks, but I control him because I don’t take his crap ’cause I can hit back now. He would be, “I want that shirt washed, dried --” JJ: Now, you’re talking right to me right now. DJ: Exactly. “I want that shirt washed, dried, and ironed in five minutes.” And if we didn’t do that -- “I want it now.” “But we can’t do that.” “Give me the belt. Give 36 �me the belt. Give me that belt right now.” And he would get the belt and he would hit us. And my mom would think it was a joke. [00:54:00] She would be out in the street playing lotto numbers, selling illegal, because that is illegal. You play the numbers. JJ: Now, she’s a Christian woman, right? DJ: Yeah, but she played numbers. JJ: But she played the numbers and that was illegal. What would she say? DJ: I have no idea. She would go to people’s houses and collect money and play numbers for them, and that’s illegal. JJ: Oh, so she was collecting the numbers. DJ: The numbers. JJ: ’Cause I know your father did that too. DJ: No, she would do it too. JJ: She would do it too. DJ: When my dad was working at night, she would go out at night and she would collect numbers. JJ: She would collect the numbers. DJ: But then she didn’t know -- JJ: That was part of the syndicate. DJ: Exactly. But then the thing was that she kept leaving us with our brother. She didn’t understand and we kept telling her, “He keeps hitting us.” And she didn’t care. “Jose, I told you not to touch the girls.” And my brother would run around the table and my mom would run after him and they would start laughing at the 37 �end and nobody would get hit. [00:55:00] But we would get hit all the time. And I remember my brother. He used to say the mass. We used to prepare the altar. Those were our games. That’s why I don’t remember -- when my childhood, I never liked dolls. I never played with dolls. That’s probably why I liked boys because I never played with dolls. We didn’t do that. We played priest and nuns. We were in the Catholic church. We did a whole mass, I remember. I mean, when we would snap our finger, we would kneel down, snap the finger back up. My brother was the priest. He would put on a sheet over him. He would say the entire mass. We would take bread, smash them up, and that was our communion. JJ: So what do you think was going on with your brother at that time (inaudible) to make a priest? DJ: My brother wanted to become a priest. My brother was in Catholic school and he wanted to become a priest, but because there wasn’t money for certain [00:56:00] things -- mind you, we went to Catholic school, but for a certain age, then it gets more expensive and more expensive. So he was gonna go into high school and because he was gonna go to high school, the Catholic school was more expensive. And then he wanted to become a priest, and this is what my mom says. My mom says the priest said that my dad had to go to the school, and because my dad didn’t want to go to the school and he wouldn’t go and he wouldn’t go, then that’s why they took my brother out of the seminary that he was supposed to be. JJ: So your brother was suspended from school? 38 �DJ: Well, they just told him, yeah, that he couldn’t go to that. They couldn’t afford it so he couldn’t go to that Catholic high school. He would have to go to a public school, a public high school, and that was the wrong thing to have done because that’s when everything started. That’s when he stole the car. Of course, he said that he didn’t know [00:57:00] it was stolen, but I never believed that. He showed up in Indiana. My father had to get on a train and pick him up. That’s why I can’t say that my father didn’t like my brother because I think he loved him very much. But in his own way. Because if he really didn’t care, he would’ve let my brother rot it jail. He would’ve let him. And no, he always made it a point to find how to get him out of trouble because he always did. But the thing was that my mother was always smothering him. She always smothered you. JJ: So there was like a time where your brother ran away in a stolen car? DJ: Yes. JJ: And then got arrested? DJ: My father had to go all the way to Indiana and there was a snow blizzard. JJ: I think it was Missouri. DJ: Okay. JJ: It was Missouri, St. Louis, Missouri. DJ: Okay. And there was a blizzard and he had to go on the train. I remember that. And he had to go over there to go pick you up and bring [00:58:00] you back. That was a big ordeal. JJ: Okay. Now, your mother did catechism classes, right? Our mom did catechism classes. Okay. Wasn’t she involved with Damas de María? 39 �DJ: Damas de María, and we were Hijas de María. JJ: You were Hijas de María. DJ: Mm-hmm, those are the women that -- Hijas de María, the Damas are the [word?] ’cause they’re the women, the married women, which belong to the Virgin Mary, and then the Hijas were the daughters of the Virgin Mary. That’s what the groups were called. JJ: So you were like the daughters of Mary. DJ: So it’s daughters of Mary. So it’s mothers and daughters. And the group, like right now if you go to a Catholic church right now, they have groups for the young children. They have [00:59:00] groups that might be for just girls only. These were just for girls. They had the men that were Caballeros de San Juan. That’s where the men -- Damas of María were the mothers and Hijas de María were the younger girls. JJ: Okay. What did, for example, the Hijas de Marías do? What did you do? DJ: We would organize parties, do stuff like that, bake sales, raffles, stuff like that. The moms would help and all that stuff as well. I remember getting involved in doing actually parties, like trying to get a band, sell tickets, you know, doing all that stuff. JJ: Why did you do that? I mean, were you raising money? DJ: I was doing it to get out of the house, let’s put it that way. I did it to get out of the house. I tried to get involved in anything to get out of the house. JJ: Were other girls doing the same thing? DJ: Yeah. 40 �JJ: (inaudible) to get involved to get out of -- DJ: We wanted to go dancing. The only way we’re going to go -- you know, these men are machistas. They don’t take us anywhere. So if we want to go dancing, [01:00:00] you need to do that. You go, “Oh, I’ll volunteer. I’ll do this. I’ll do that.” I get to go out, I get to dance. That’s how it was. JJ: Okay. And what about the mothers? Why would they do it? DJ: They would do it to raise money for the church. That’s what they did mostly. It’s like they do nowadays. You have your organizations in the church and some of them teach catechism. Some of them do this. Some of them go -- JJ: So there were other mothers teaching catechism classes? DJ: Yeah, there was other people that did that. JJ: (inaudible) Lincoln Park? DJ: Well, Mother was one of them, the basic one that I remember when I was small. But then Mother didn’t do it later on. Mother did it when we were growing up. But once we were older, she was in the Damas de María, so she wasn’t really teaching catechism that much. JJ: But you heard of other women doing it later? DJ: I don’t really know. I think Mother was like the main one that I knew. JJ: Now, I remember they were trying to get like a Spanish mass [01:01:00] at St. Teresa's or something. DJ: To do Spanish mass? JJ: Or St. Michael’s. Do you remember St. Michael’s at all? DJ: Not too much St. Michael’s. 41 �JJ: You remember -- DJ: St. Teresa's, ’cause that was like in a corner. St. Michael’s was where I think I did my first communion. That was on La Salle down there, that way. JJ: Yeah, by Cleveland and -- DJ: No. No, no, no, it was St. Teresa's because -- JJ: No, you went to St. Joseph’s. I think you went to St. Joseph’s. That was more like La Salle. DJ: Uh-huh. Oh, St. Joseph’s, yes. JJ: Right. So they had some stuff. They were trying to get the Spanish mass there. DJ: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. Do you remember anything there? DJ: No. But I guess they must’ve had the Spanish mass, if they had the Caballeros of San Juan and they had Damas de María. They had to have had the Spanish mass. JJ: What about St. Teresa's? What do you remember about that? How did that mass come along? DJ: That, I don’t remember too much because at that time, we would go to church, but we wouldn’t go to church all the [01:02:00] time. We would go because we wanted to belong in the group to be able to do that and do the dances and stuff, and we would go to church at that -- but there was a lot of times Mom stopped going to church every Sunday. I know she wasn’t going there and we weren’t going either. JJ: Why did she stop going to church? Just tired? 42 �DJ: She was always doing promises for my brother. JJ: What do you mean, promises? DJ: That you have to wear an outfit, like if you were the Virgin Mary. You wore the whole robe thing and you tie it with these little balls that hang down. JJ: Like a Franciscan monk. DJ: Something like that. JJ: Not Virgin Mary. DJ: Exactly. JJ: Franciscan monk. DJ: And those were promises. That’s like a promise you make to God. “I will wear this for a year if you help my son get out of jail.” It was promises, or “Please protect my son and I will do this for another year.” I mean, she constantly had that for you. This was like a constant thing. JJ: So she would pray to God -- DJ: All the time. JJ: -- and make a promise. DJ: [01:03:00] And then a lot of times, she wouldn’t finish. JJ: That I wouldn’t go to jail or something. DJ: That you wouldn’t go to jail or that you wouldn’t get in trouble or if she couldn’t find you, then say that he can come home safe or whatever. JJ: Did she ever do that for your father? DJ: Hell no. She never did it for us either. JJ: I thought she had done it for -- 43 �DJ: I don’t ever remember her doing it for our father. JJ: On Dayton Street. DJ: But you were three years older, so you could -- JJ: I didn’t know that she did that for me. DJ: This was our entire life. JJ: Okay, she was doing that. DJ: I remember that. JJ: I remember she did it for my father. DJ: Well, she could’ve done it at one time, but I don’t remember. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) for me too. DJ: She could’ve done it for you but she never finished. Like, it was for a year and she would stop, like, seven months later. So if you stopped seven months later and didn’t complete the year, then it doesn’t count. That’s why you kept getting into trouble. (laughter) If she would have done it the whole year, maybe you would’ve stayed out of trouble. JJ: Okay. Now, let’s look at [01:04:00] the Young Lords. They became political, right? Did you see any difference, like you were talking about the church? DJ: I don’t know much about it but I do remember the church. I remember a church. I remember going to that church. I remember a lot of Young Lords there, girls, women, and men, and they lived there or they stayed there or something. I remember my sister leaving home. She ran away with her boyfriend. Her boyfriend beat her up so bad that my sister left him and walked all the way down to that church. I remember my brother being there and my brother grabbed my 44 �sister. All the Young Lord women grabbed my sister, put her in this room. Then her boyfriend went in there to try -- he says, “Oh, I’m looking for my wife,” and you [01:05:00] said, “What do you mean, your wife? Are you talking about my sister? She’s not your wife. And who are you to beat up on my --” ’Cause he had beat up on my sister really bad. So I remember that my brother went, that you went and you beat him up so bad that you couldn’t even see his eyes. They were closed shut. I remember you beat him up and after you beat him up, you made him take my sister back home to our house. I remember that night because that was, like, I was so upset at everybody because I hadn’t seen my boyfriend that day because everything was going on and I kept saying, “You had to go run away with your boyfriend and Joseph had to go and beat up your boyfriend and now I can’t go see Johnny,” and all this and that. You know, it was like a constant, and I go, “Why do you keep doing stuff like that?” But it didn’t help ’cause she kept going back to him and he kept beating her [01:06:00] up. But she will tell you that part, if she wants to say it. I’m not gonna say that part ’cause I don’t know if she wants to talk about it. JJ: So there was another incident. DJ: That was a big incident. But after that, it wasn’t like a gang anymore. It was like community. It was doing breakfasts. I remember that. I remember a lot of stuff in the newspaper. I remember in the news -- JJ: Did you ever see the breakfasts? DJ: They would show it on the news. It would show people going up to get breakfast, to go in there. They would cook. They were helping the whole Spanish 45 �community. I remember that. But at that time, I remember at that time -- I left my house when I was 15, so after that, I wasn’t involved anymore. I wasn’t in Chicago anymore. We moved to Aurora because of my sister and that boyfriend that kept beating her up. We actually moved to Aurora, so I had to leave my boyfriend, break up with him, so that was -JJ: So at that time, you were living [01:07:00] in Claremont or -- DJ: We were living in Claremont. From Claremont, we moved -- JJ: Claremont and North Avenue. DJ: And that’s when we moved to Aurora because of my sister and her boyfriend. And then I had to break up with mine and that was like -- I thought I was gonna die. It was a huge ordeal, a huge, huge ordeal for me to have to get used to a small town when you were used to living in Chicago. JJ: Why did you pick Aurora? DJ: Our cousins lived there. We had cousins that lived there and they said it was okay for us to go there. So my dad stayed in Chicago for a couple months until we got a place to stay out in Aurora, whatever. We stayed at our cousins’ house until we got an apartment. JJ: Okay, so you didn’t hear anything about the Young Lords after that? DJ: After that, I would see my brother here and there. My brother went underground. JJ: Okay, what do you mean underground? DJ: Underground, that we didn’t know where he was at. JJ: For how long? DJ: For years. 46 �JJ: For years? DJ: For years. JJ: So for years, you didn’t [01:08:00] know where your brother was at? DJ: After, there was an incident at the church. There was an incident with some material. They had my brother arrested because they said he had stole some material that they were -- JJ: (inaudible). DJ: Exactly, and they arrested him and he had to serve time for a year. After my brother got out of there, after you got out of there after that year, we don’t remember where you were at for years and years and years. JJ: And so what were you guys thinking about at that time? DJ: Well, we thought you were with gangs and all that, and I know you had gone I think to California. You had gone to a lot of different places. You had gone -- that we would hear here and there and here and there that we were hearing all this stuff. JJ: From who would you hear it? DJ: Just from family members that were actually still living in Chicago, ’cause remember, we moved to Aurora, so we weren’t in contact with -- so we would just hear like from our aunts and uncles. “Well, no, I heard this [on the news?].” Or “So-and-so’s cousin [01:09:00] knew this.” ’Cause the gossip always goes here with the family, and if they’re still living in this neighborhood, oh no, we heard -- JJ: So this was uncles too and aunts saying they had heard something? DJ: They had heard stuff. “No, well, I thought he was --” “He had left here and --” 47 �JJ: So they knew what was going on with the Young Lords. DJ: It was always all over the news. It was in the newspapers and it was in the news. When it turned into an organization, that they had the church, and then when that preacher, that pastor died, or they shot him or something -- JJ: Reverend Bruce Johnson. DJ: The reverend. That was another big ordeal. JJ: How did people take that? DJ: Well, I don’t know because I didn’t live there anymore. I lived in Aurora. JJ: You say it was a big ordeal. DJ: Well, when I say a big ordeal, it’s because it’s came out all over the news, and they would come out on the news, they would always mention Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez. They would always mention the Young Lords. They would always mention -- I think they even tried to think that the Young Lords had had something to do with it. [01:10:00] So it was always they had stuff like that on. JJ: So when they thought that the Young Lords had something to do or they tried to make them think that way, what did people say? What did family members say? DJ: Well, people were not believing it because they already knew the Young Lords, what they were trying to do was help the community and help all the poor Spanish Hispanic people because they weren’t treated right. So that’s more or less how it was. But after that, like I said, after that, I was with my husband and I had my kids and that’s how it was. I didn’t go back to Chicago. Till then, I’ve never lived back in Chicago. JJ: Okay, but did you ever participate in any demonstrations? 48 �DJ: I went I think to two of them. I believe I went to two of them. There was a walk when one member got killed. JJ: Manuel Ramos. DJ: Manuel Ramos. I went for that. JJ: So you went to the funeral? DJ: I went to that. JJ: [01:11:00] To the wake -- DJ: To the wake. JJ: -- at St. Teresa's? How was that like? What can you remember about that? DJ: It was just a big walk with thousands and thousands and thousands of people walking in the street. I mean, it was like something I had never seen in my life. JJ: Gang members? DJ: Everybody. Gang members. Family. Just people. It was just thousands of people. JJ: So how did you feel then, seeing all those people? DJ: Then that’s when I actually realized this thing was huge, that the Young Lords were not something small, that the Young Lords changed, and I was glad and happy at the same time that it changed from being a gang to an organization to help people. And I actually at one time -- I don’t know where I was at -- I went into a library, something. I picked up a book or something and I don’t even know what it was and I was reading this book and there was something mentioned about my brother in that [01:12:00] book. I don’t even remember the book’s name now ’cause this was years ago. It mentioned my brother, mentioned the 49 �Young Lords. It mentioned walks, and this, from Manuel Ramos, that was all over -- there was clippings. There was a lot of stuff on that. JJ: So that was the only book that you had ever read about the Young Lords before? DJ: That I actually said, “Oh my God, my brother’s in a book.” JJ: There was no newspaper or anything? They always used some -- DJ: Yeah, there was always clippings and there was stuff all over of the Young Lords and stuff. JJ: What about when they took over the seminary? Did you hear anything about that? DJ: Mm-mm. JJ: Okay. Okay, so from Claremont, you moved to Aurora, and now you got married with Israel? DJ: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. But you had eloped. I mean, what was that about, (inaudible)? DJ: Eloped. JJ: Why did you elope? Couldn’t communicate with your mom or what? DJ: No, ’cause of communication. [01:13:00] My mother would -- remember, you were the favorite. She didn’t like us. We were slaves. We had to come home from school. We had to mop. We had to wax the floor on our hands and knees. We had to have dinner ready. We had to wash clothes by hand. We had to wring ’em out. We had to iron. I considered that slavery at that time. We had to do all that every day, every day, every day. And okay, she worked, yeah, but she 50 �would come home from work and just sit down. We did everything else. It was that. It was the fact that my -JJ: So you didn’t [like?] your brother because of that? DJ: I’ve always loved my brother. I have always. Didn’t matter what he did. Always, always. I didn’t like a lot -- JJ: Is this ’cause we’re here in front of each other or what? DJ: No, no, no, no, it’s always been like this. It’s just that my brother and I are two different people. My brother has certain [01:14:00] beliefs of independence and I don’t believe that. JJ: Tell me what you believe. DJ: I believe that men and women are equal. I don’t believe that a man is better than a woman. I don’t believe that a man has to say -- if you say, “Oh, well, you have to do this.” No, nobody’s gonna tell me what I have to do or what I don’t have to do. I do it because out of respect and because I wanna do it, but not because I have to do it. And that’s how I am in my family and that’s probably why I feel that I have to take on so many problems of my family, of my kids, of my brother, my sister. I worry about everybody. Everybody. Even my brother can say, “If anybody has a problem or whatever, call Daisy. Daisy knows what she has to do.” Because I take care of the problem. I do this. I do that. I make things happen. I don’t fall apart. I don’t have time to fall apart. And you learn that when you have kids [01:15:00] because when I was growing up, no way. I kept saying, “I don’t want to, and we’re not living in Chicago. I don’t want anything to do with gangs. I don’t want anything to do with drugs. I don’t want anything like that.” 51 �But that’s not how life is. That is not how life is, so you have to be realistic. So when you’re realistic -- I can say and I can swear on the Bible. I can say I’ve never used drugs in my life ever. Ever, ever, ever. I’ve always said I would never, never do that and I never have. I would protect my kids against that. But we live in a world where that’s all over the place. I can tell my kids, “Don’t smoke weed.” JJ: Did your brother use any drugs? DJ: My brother used to use drugs. JJ: And everybody knew that? DJ: Not everybody knew it. We knew it. I knew it. JJ: How did you know? DJ: I just knew. I just knew that being in a gang [01:16:00] had to do with drugs. I just knew it had to do with that. JJ: So it had to do with being in a gang. DJ: But my brother has changed so much from the person he used to be. I know you used to smoke weed. I know you used to shoot up. JJ: Shoot up heroin? DJ: Everything, I guess. I don’t know, like I said, a lot of the stuff because I don’t know. But I know you used to shoot up. He was an alcoholic. JJ: Alcoholic, okay. DJ: He was an alcoholic. He stopped and now I’m so proud and proud. He doesn’t drink. He doesn’t smoke. He doesn’t smoke weed. He doesn’t shoot up. He drinks coffee and that’s it. 52 �JJ: That’s not saying much. It’s caffeine. DJ: No. But it’s saying a lot to what you were years ago. But one thing that you can never change on my brother, and I will say this, you can never change him [01:17:00] speaking of the Young Lords. I mean, I’ve got tapes here. He sends me everything. I’ve got tapes here. I’ve got everything that he sends me. I read it and I will say sometimes -- you’ll say, “Daisy, I’m sending you so you can read it.” “Yeah, okay, okay, okay.” And I tell my husband, I go, “Oh, here comes Joseph sending me some stuff. It’s some stuff of the Young Lords.” I read it. He’s my brother. I’m gonna read everything or whatever. I have it and I keep it. I save it. JJ: Okay, now another thing that you disagreed with which are within your brother, about the question of Puerto Rico. How do you feel about that? DJ: What do you mean? JJ: Puerto Rican independence and all that. DJ: Oh. You don’t want to get me started. JJ: No, no, I want it. DJ: You wanna know independence? Because when the people that live in the United States in Chicago, in Illinois, they’re people that do not live in Puerto Rico. [01:18:00] They have some nerve to come and say, “I want Puerto Rico independent. I want Puerto Rico to stay the way it is.” Well, you know what? The people that are saying that don’t live here because if they would live here, they would want Puerto Rico to be a state because then we would be equal to everybody else. We are not equal to everybody else. We are a colonial. We’re 53 �part of the United States. We’re not complete. We’re part of it, okay? So for instance, you’re in my house right now. We’re in 2012. I built this house in 1992. This house was finished building. At that time, hardly had water. Our light would go on and off here and there. We’re in 2012. My brother just came today, showed up this morning for this interview, and I have no water. Now, why is that? And we are [01:19:00] in 2012. That’s ridiculous. But there’s cell phones. But they have internet. So why isn’t the system of the water and the light fixed? Why are we still struggling? Why do I have to go to an appointment at two o’clock in the morning? Go to an appointment at two o’clock in the morning, wait for the secretary to show up at 8:00 in the morning. The doctor shows up at 9:00 or 10:00. They see you. At two o’clock in the morning, and you might be number 15 at two o’clock in the morning because there’s people that slept there all night. Now, why do we have to struggle like that? Why do we have to? Why do old people have to go through all this? And then they don’t want to pay you but the minimum, and in certain stores, they pay you five dollars an hour. What is that? I don’t believe that. I don’t believe that. This should be a state because in a state, everybody’s gonna be equal. You will have to pay everybody equally. [01:20:00] But also the Puerto Ricans are lazy because they are. I worked all my life in the States. I came to Puerto Rico. I worked here. I couldn’t believe the way they worked. There’s a saying that they said -- when those buildings from 9/11 happened, something like that with all these deaths and people dying. None of that would ever happen here in Puerto Rico. Why? Because Puerto Ricans are never where they’re supposed to be at time we work. That happened to 54 �those people because they were doing their job. They were in their offices. They were at work. Puerto Ricans, they go into work at 7:00. This one has to kiss this one’s face. “Hi, how are you?” Hug this one, do this. “Let me go get a coffee here.” “Oh, how was last night?” “Oh, did you see the novella last night?” And this and that. By the time they get to [their area?], it’s around 10:30 in the morning. When you have patients -- [01:21:00] I’ve always worked in hospitals. When you’ve got patients standing in the line, do they care? Because it’s all about them and not about the patients and not about the other people. That is why I don’t like Puerto Rico and if it wasn’t because of my mother, that I have to take care of her, I wouldn’t be living here. I would have already sold my house and I would be living in Florida with my kids and my grandkids. JJ: So you want it to be a state but you don’t like it, Puerto Rico, or because if it’s a state, then it won’t be Puerto Rico? DJ: No, if it would be a state, I think things would be better. We wouldn’t have all these problems. I mean, why would I have to worry about water? I have my brother coming to visit me and I have no water. Now, what is this? For two days. We’re not talking about an hour. We’re talking about two days with no water. Does the government think that people don’t take baths? JJ: So you’re saying the Puerto Rican Commonwealth government -- DJ: Exactly. JJ: -- is not doing their job. 55 �DJ: [01:22:00] They don’t know what they’re doing and it doesn’t matter who’s there. It doesn’t even matter if it’s independent, if it’s Republican or Democrat. It’s all bullshit. It’s all the same. JJ: So [where does?] the state [of the party?]. Today, now that the government today, the state of the party, so how do you feel about that? DJ: Right now? To me? JJ: Yeah. DJ: I don’t trust any of them. I don’t like any of them, period. I’m tired of it. I came here to live with my family and we did and my kids are grown up. They’re married and none of them live with me. None of them live in Puerto Rico and they tell me right off the bat -- and they went to school here also. They go, “Oh no, Mom, I can never have my kids go to school in Puerto Rico. They don’t learn anything.” My daughter, how can you get an A in gym if the teacher never went to school the whole year? But in her report card, she got an A in gym. Now, how can they do [01:23:00] that? JJ: The teacher wasn’t there at all? DJ: Not the entire year. There was no gym. They have no gym classes here. JJ: But she had an A? DJ: She had an A and there’s no gym. JJ: So people are not doing their jobs, basically. DJ: Exactly. JJ: Okay. 56 �DJ: You’re gonna watch. They’re gonna fix the light or whatever and the water. There’ll be five people. One will be digging and the other three are watching, but they’re all getting paid. That is the problem that they have in Puerto Rico. JJ: Okay, yeah. I was just trying to get how you think. I’m not trying to take sides or anything like that, not for this thing. DJ: Oh, it doesn’t matter. I know you’re independent. I don’t agree with you. That’s okay. Now, the day that you live here, you’re going to be independent. Now, in the meantime, I’m not gonna believe anything you tell me. JJ: Okay. Okay. Well, that’s a point down. DJ: That is a point down. The day that you move to Puerto Rico and you go to a two o’clock in the morning appointment or you have no water or you don’t have light, when you have all that and you go through all that struggle [01:24:00] that I go through, then you can tell me you can be independent and I’ll let you be independent. JJ: In Aurora, you were the Puerto Rican Queen. We’re gonna go to that since you’re attacking me already. DJ: Okay, but we need to cut the interview. JJ: Right now? DJ: Yeah. JJ: Okay, let me stop it running. END OF VIDEO FILE 57 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1840aa9d349dbe21ee0e59802d4aade2.mp4 cd29aa0e01d97f76b28aea2c5789c1be Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Daisy Jiménez vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 1 Descripción Spanish language Description entry Daisy Jiménez o como la llamaba su padre, “La Prieta”, es una hermana de José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. Nació en el séptimo piso del Water Hotel en la calle Superior y La Salle Streets en Chicago, donde vivía su familia. Creció en La Clark medio Ohio y North Ave. , y luego en Lincoln Park donde ayudo a su mama a reclutar gente para misa en Español y dando rosarios para los Caballeros de San Juan y Damas de María. Después de vivir en Claremont y North Ave. Por unos años, la familia se movió ah Aurora, Illinois. Aquí conocieron a Teo Arroyo quien estaba organizando el primer desfilo Puertorriqueño en Aurora, y también era de Barrio San Salvado de Caguas. Daisy entro la carrera para ser Reina del Desfilo Puertorriqueño y gano. Ahora vive en Camuy, Puerto Rico con su esposo Israel Rodríguez y cuatro hijos. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Religión Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Jimenez_Daisy_1 Title A name given to the resource Daisy Jiménez video interview and transcript, interview 1 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, Daisy Description An account of the resource Daisy Jiménez, or “La Prieta” as she was called by her father, is one of José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez’s sisters. She was born on the seventh floor of what was the Water Hotel at Superior and La Salle Streets in Chicago, where her family was then living. She grew up in La Clark between Ohio and North Ave., and then in the Lincoln Park area where she helped her mother Eugenia go door to door recruiting Hispanos for Spanish mass and praying rosaries for the Caballeros de San Juan and Damas de María. After living on Claremont and North Ave. for several years the family moved to Aurora, Illinois. There they joined up with grassroots leader Teo Arroyo, who was also from Barrio San Salvador of Caguas, Puerto Rico and was organizing the first Puerto Rican Parade for that city. Daisy entered the contest for Puerto Rican Parade Queen and won. She has raised four children and today lives in Camuy, Puerto Rico with her husband, Israel Rodríguez. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Religion Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-16 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e6838aa4d06c81277201caf813361160.pdf 862c934f3bbfe53dff77d15003c35dcd PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Benedicto Jiménez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 6/2/2012 Biography and Description Benedicto Jiménez is the son of Toribia Rodríguez and Miguel Jiménez. His father, Miguel, is the oldest of Gregorio Jiménez’s sons, but is the only son from Gregorio’s first wife. For Mr. Benedicto Jiménez, the importance of family and neighborhood ties became especially clear once he was in Chicago. There, Puerto Ricans faced the same hardships and so sought each other out and were glad to know that they were related in some way. Instead of asking what one thought about the weather, the conversation would be about, “what town in Puerto Rico are you from and what are all your last names.” They would research on and on until they could prove that they were related, or at the very least that they were close friends of close friends, or from a nearby town. Initially, Mr. Jiménez wanted to become a priest. Instead he became a different type of father and raised a wonderful, stable family in Aurora, Illinois. He also lived in Lincoln Park for a couple of years on Seminary Street near Armitage, close to Eugenia Rodríguez, who he would frequently visit, who lived at 2117 North Bissell Street. Rather than returning to Chicago, Mr. Jiménez moved closer to Aurora, Illinois because he was desperately looking for work and with the help of other relatives and friends worked at the honguera of West Chicago. The honguera produced mushrooms and other vegetables for the Campbell Soup Company. Mr. Jiménez worked there for many years and since he is well educated and fluent in English, he was asked to translate many times. For this help the company bosses would relate more to him but this never translated into more �pay or a better job. In those days of the 1960s and 1970s jobs were not given by skill but by national origin and by race. He says that the honguera was 50/50, about 200 Mejicanos and 200 Puerto Ricans, who lived in the dormitories of the migrant camp, by signed contract. The company would pay for their trip from Puerto Rico or Mexico and the employee would work to at least he made enough to reimburse the company. Mr. Jiménez describes long days and work weeks in an enclosed, unlit room because the mushrooms are grown in the dark. He could talk to them but could not see who he worked next to during that day. It was there that he was reintroduced to Don Teo Arroyo, whose wife Gina cooked at the camp for the men. They too were from Barrio San Salvador of Caguas and would help Latinos, later becoming the ones to begin organizing the community for Aurora’s first Puerto Rican Day parades. Since West Chicago was a small town, when the migrant workers decided to settle down with their families, they often would move to Chicago or settle in Aurora. Significant Mexican and Puerto Rican communities have grown in both places. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dc4c2aaf462d2e7bb2afa7c315b8f810.mp4 9f344c940d52ac570e5a9443b7bb1f40 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Benedicto Jiménez vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Idioma español--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Trabajadores migratorios agrícolas--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Jimenez_Benedicto Title A name given to the resource Benedicto Jiménez video interview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, Benedicto Description An account of the resource Benedicto Jiménez is the son of Toribia Rodríguez and Miguel Jiménez. For Mr. Benedicto Jiménez, the importance of family and neighborhood ties became especially clear once he was in Chicago. There, Puerto Ricans faced the same hardships and so sought each other out and were glad to know that they were related in some way. Instead of asking what one thought about the weather, the conversation would be about, “what town in Puerto Rico are you from and what are all your last names.” Mr. Jiménez moved closer to Aurora, Illinois because he was desperately looking for work and with the help of other relatives and friends worked at the honguera of West Chicago. The honguera produced mushrooms and other vegetables for the Campbell Soup Company. Mr. Jiménez worked there for many years and since he is well educated and fluent in English, he was asked to translate. His help never translated into more pay or a better job. In those days of the 1960s and 1970s jobs were not given by skill but by national origin and by race. He says that the honguera was 50/50, about 200 Mejicanos and 200 Puerto Ricans, who lived in the dormitories of the migrant camp, by signed contract. Mr. Jiménez describes long days and work weeks in an enclosed, unlit room because the mushrooms are grown in the dark. He was reintroduced to Don Teo Arroyo, whose wife Gina cooked at the camp for the men. They began organizing the community for Aurora’s first Puerto Rican Day parades. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Migrant agricultural laborers--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-06-02 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e6413f0cb89de1407c181a8d7fe62a96.pdf dcd274a4db7981ab446239ab54c1a86c PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Amparo Jiménez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 6/22/2012 Biography and Description Amparo Jiménez lives in Aguas Buenas, Puerto Rico where she is very active within the Catholic Church. During her oral history, Ms. Jiménez had a statute of the Virgin Mary at her home with a lit candle next to it. A small group of people had brought the statue to her house and prayed the rosary with her. She would keep the statue and candle lit in her home for nine days, a novena. During that time, she would also pray to it. After that, the group would return and pray together once again. They would then keep the chain unbroken by processing together to another neighbor’s home, giving them the statue after praying the rosary. This is the charismatic way of keeping the Catholic Church alive through actions or events within the community. It is also what the Caballeros de San Juan and Damas de María did in Chicago to wake up and unite Puerto Ricans who were dispersed within Chicago, and as a result of their diasporic situation. Ms. Jiménez is daughter of “Tio Funfa Jiménez” whose children and their offspring left Puerto Rico and grew up primarily in Detroit and Pontiac, Michigan. She does not want to think of her cousins, the children of “Tio Gabriel Jiménez” as members of the Hacha Viejas and she states it because she grew up with them in this town of Aguas Buenas and that she knows them well. She stresses how her uncle Gabriel was a good, decent hardworking farmer and so were his children. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7cd2894d5a446a28a133ca1f2d2a1876.mp4 3fadee4830da6ce3dae3c35f9c5efbb7 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Amparo Jiménez vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Idioma español--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Vida social y costumbres Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Jimenez_Amparo Title A name given to the resource Amparo Jiménez video interview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, Amparo Description An account of the resource Amparo Jiménez lives in Aguas Buenas, Puerto Rico where she is very active within the Catholic Church. Ms. Jiménez is daughter of “Tio Funfa Jiménez” whose children and their offspring left Puerto Rico and grew up primarily in Detroit and Pontiac, Michigan. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José , 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Social life and customs Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-06-22 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/578d84c3e207eb36b8478c39ed9fe494.pdf 28eb236eb1efb14536f6cfdc5a355566 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Michael Gaylord James Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/14/2012 Biography and Description A resident of Chicago’s Roger’s Park neighborhood, Mike James was the first leader of Rising Up Angry, a white, working-class group formed in the late 1960s and early 1970s that sought to organize residents of Lakeview/Uptown and offer a range of free or low cost services to the community including a free legal clinic, free health service, a women’s discussion group, occasional free pet-care clinic, and a variety of community events. The group also published a newspaper, the only underground newspaper aimed specifically at white, blue-collar greaser youth in Chicago at that time. The paper presented a combination of international news with news from local Chicago neighborhoods. Rising Up Angry members were also known for their distinctive way of dressing – dark banlon shirts, leather jackets, baggy pants, and pointed toe shoes. The group modeled its efforts off community-based programs run by the Black Panther Party, Young Patriots and Young Lords. They also sought to convince white, working-class youth not to fight with other rival groups but to unite with the Panthers, Young Lords, and others to fight racism, injustice, and the forced displacement of poor and working-class families from their homes in Uptown, Lakeview, Lincoln Park, and the other near downtown and lakefront areas of Chicago. The organization lasted until 1975. Today, Mr. James owns and operates, a theatre, a journal, a general store and the Heartland Café in Chicago’s Rogers Park Neighborhood and features a progressive Saturday morning live Radio Program on WLUW 88.7 FM. �yl_James_Michael JOSE JIMINEZ: Give me your name, date, and date of birth, and then we can start from there. This is an oral history project. MICHAEL JAMES: Well, good morning. I forget that we don’t know what time of day it is. Hi, I’m Michael James, actually Michael Gaylord James, and I was born in 1942, January 16, 1942 in New York City. JJ: Okay. And Gaylord, that’s your -- MJ: Middle name. JJ: That’s your middle name. MJ: I got a lot of nicknames. But that’s my whole -- Michael Gaylord James. I’ve gone by Michael Gaylord James, I’ve gone by Michael James, by Mike James, and then I had some aliases over time. JJ: So okay, your parents, were they active at all in the movement? Who were they? MJ: My dad is Hal James, born in St. Joseph, Missouri. My mother is Florence James, she was born in the Bronx. They got married a few years before I was born. They had both worked in [00:01:00] advertising in radio production. My father I would have to say was a liberal Democrat. My first political campaign, I remember, was Adlai Stevenson, who was a very distant relative of our family. But that was -- my dad was real active in that campaign. I know that my dad had a number of friends who were activists in the Communist Party because when I became involved in the movement he basically said, “This is serious stuff and you just want to be really careful.” And he knew people who were blacklisted 1 �through the 1950s through the McCarthy Era and he would not buy any products from Wisconsin during the McCarthy time. That’s Senator Joe McCarthy back in the 1950s. JJ: And he was from Wisconsin. MJ: So his favorite beer was Miller High Life, he stopped drinking that, etcetera. Later he had a beef with Lyndon Johnson [00:02:00] over some TV deal that he was involved with and he wouldn’t buy anything from Texas, which probably was really good. My mom? I don’t think of my mom as political. My mom passed away in October of 2011, she was 97 and a half. I think she had really good values and was principled, certainly around race and the gay issues as it came up in our family. She had -- her mom, my grandma, was a Republican in the old school sense of Republicans, but my mom was, as far as I know, always a Democrat, and was quite supportive of our work in Civil Rights, Anti-War Movement, that kind of thing. My dad played more of a devil’s advocate. I remember him when the Montgomery Bus Boycott [00:03:00] was happening in 1956, which would have made me fourteen, I remember my dad kind of asking what I would call challenging questions. I could have even called them racist. But I think that was pretty much helping me in his sense of how to get me to think more. Because we -- in our family is an adopted brother who is an African American and my dad I think in the times of the 1960s, he was out of work -- JJ: What was his name? MJ: Hal James. He was out of work and he produced -- JJ: I mean your brother. 2 �MJ: Jim Arden is my brother and he was a hot shot -- he is a hot shot weight lifter. He’s in his seventies. He was Junior Mr. Connecticut fourth over forty Mr. America. My dad did produce a concert I remember with Odetta in the 1960s and then he produced a play called Hallelujah Baby with Leslie Uggams. And so I think in his way [00:04:00] he was trying to stay in tune with the times. My mother actually when Dr. King was killed, she and some other women started a daycare in the Saugatuck Congregational Church in my hometown of Westport, Connecticut. She always prided herself on doing Civil Rights kind of oriented work and helping with fundraising for Tougaloo or Tuskegee, one of those colleges. So that’s my folks. JJ: And what about your -- you mentioned that there was a gay issue in the family. MJ: Actually the gay issue is my son Jesse, who was around in the early days of Rising Up Angry, when he was thirteen or so he came out. That was interesting for me. I was certainly already aware of gay rights and basically supportive. [00:05:00] But then when you have it in your own family it’s like ooh, you do a double-take, and that -- there was some challenging moments for Jesse growing up and some situations he got into. He ended up marrying his boyfriend, whose dad was a Greek communist, and they have a daughter. They live in New York City. He was married in California back when it was legal to do that. I guess it is again. Then I have a daughter, Coya Paz who teaches at DePaul in the theater department, and she was the co-founder of the Teatro Luna, and is quite a playwright, and a good actress herself. And she married her girlfriend, Nina, so it’s my daughter in law. I don’t know if they’re legally married, but they have a 3 �baby, Coya actually carried the baby, Ida Rocket. I have two of my [00:06:00] six blood -- my five -- how many blood kids? Five blood kids are gay, three aren’t, and then my other kids from my marriages are not gay either. JJ: What are the other names? What are some of the other children? MJ: My first son was Jesse James, Jesse Hampton Nathaniel William Floyd Robin James, and then Coya Paz is my daughter, and those are my two gay kids. And then Casey Blue James, who just graduated from Yale, and is in New York looking into the publishing industry. She’s quite a good poet. Then I have a son Hal James, Hal Coltrane Cadien James, his name is, and he toured with a band that was getting a lot of play, the Smith Westerns. He toured Europe, Japan, the United States, a bunch of times in both the States in Europe. He didn’t really enjoy the life of the road and he wants to be a screenwriter, [00:07:00] so he’s taking screenwriting classes, working on some screenplays, and works at the Heartland Café, which is a restaurant I co-founded in 1976. Then my youngest son is Cadien Lake Jack Henry James. He’s eighteen. He just graduated from Jones Commercial-- excuse me, Jones College Prep -- it used to be Jones Commercial -- in Chicago. He has a band called Twin Peaks and they are currently on the road. They played in Tacoma last night. They’re in Seattle and Redmond, Washington today, tomorrow, which will be the 15 of July they’re in Portland, and then they go down the coast. They go across to Austin, Texas, and then they go up to Topeka, Omaha, Lawrence, Kansas, back to Omaha. I’m going to join them for the last four days of the tour. They had a kick-off concert last Sunday here in the backyard. It was quite a scene, the police only came 4 �once. They’re quite good, so you might [00:08:00] want to go to Twinpeaksmusic.blogspot.com to see his stuff. I always thought my kids would be athletes, but they’re musicians and poets. I also have, through my first wife Stormy, I have two stepsons Chuck and David. Both of them were around during the Rising Up Angry period. Then I have my wife Paige had a daughter Molly Cane is her name, now she’s married, her last name is Dodin, and she’s a teacher in New York City, and about to have a baby, it could happen today. JJ: What about your brothers and sisters? MJ: Oh, my brothers and sisters. JJ: Who are they? MJ: I’ve got -- beside my adopted brother Jim Arden, who I talked about. He adopted our family. He and I had met in the weight room in the YMCA in my hometown. [00:09:00] I have a brother Beau James and he is in the toy business. He’s not a political activist but is certainly a good thinker and would have to be called a Democrat of some sort. Then I have a sister Melody James, who is an actress and a teacher. After all the stuff that went on at San Francisco State in the old days she came to work with JOIN Community Union, which was a predecessor to Rising Up Angry, which is an organization I founded. Melody has a daughter and a husband. She was there for a number of years in the San Francisco Mime Troupe, so she did a lot of political plays, she wrote and acted in both. JJ: Okay, you mentioned Rising Up Angry. We’re going to get to that. How [00:10:00] long -- New York, how long were you there? MJ: I was in New York for the first two years of my life. I grew up in Connecticut. My 5 �dad was in advertising at that point. He had been an actor. He came out of St. Joseph, Missouri, grew up in Chicago on South Shore, went to the University of Chicago, went to Reed out in Oregon for a while, I guess he had screwed up at U of C. Then he went back to U of C, got involved in theater, knew Edgar Lee Master, Thornton Wilder, a number of people, Sherwood Anderson, and ended up producing Man of La Mancha, Hallelujah Baby, etcetera. When I was two -- I don’t really remember anything about New York City except that I think I was born in a hospital near the UN, which for me was always symbolic that I was near people from different places, and getting along, and working together. We moved to Westport, Connecticut [00:11:00] to a little house on a place called Red Coat Road. One of the most distinct activities I had beside helping the farmer down the road butcher cows and pigs, and riding around on a Harley Davison at the age of ten with his son who had just come back from the Korean War, Victor, I remember really being hostile to New York. I kind of took New York as wealth because there were wealthy New Yorkers in our town and people who would come for the summer. And when people would ask directions from a Cadillac with New York plates, we would always give them the wrong stuff. We had a little group called The Night Riders. Actually, we were kind of -- this was before I was ten, so we were really young juvenile delinquent types, because we would try and sabotage construction. I don’t think we ever did anything that mattered, but sabotaged construction of new houses that went up in the area. The other thing I remember very distinctly has to do with the notion of revolution. Growing up in New England, [00:12:00] there was a lot of attention to the Revolutionary 6 �War, and in my hometown down at the beach there were some cannons on the beach. And we had always heard how the British troops marched up what is now Route 7 to Danbury to burn the hat factories. The road I grew up on was Red Coat Road, which is the Red Coats were the British, who were the enemy at the time. And so we basically saw ourselves as defenders of the good people, the small people, the regular folks, and anti to colonialism and imperialism at an early age. JJ: When did you move to Chicago? MJ: Well, Cha-Cha, the first time I came to Chicago was in December of 1942. I would have been eleven months old. I came to visit my grandparents who lived on Euclid Avenue along South Shore. I’m not sure of the exact place. I went by there [00:13:00] a couple of times in my life. I came back to Chicago when I was thirteen or fourteen with my father, who was in radio and TV advertising business, and we came out, and while he was working, I remember we stayed at the Executive House down on Wacker Drive, and I took a bus up -- JJ: What year was this? MJ: Well at fourteen, let’s say I’m fourteen, so it’d be 1956 or so. I was already in hot rod cars, which took a lot of my time. Football, girls, hot rod cars, and early political consciousness. I took a ride on a bus up Lake Shore Drive to Irving Park, and I took a bus west on Irving Park to a place called Ray Erickson Speed Shop, which I do not believe is still there. But it was a shop where you would get equipment for your hot rod car. I remember as a kid [00:14:00] walking in and kind of looking at the stuff. So that was my second visit to Chicago. I had been 7 �with family, I think, in Michigan. I don’t know if we came to Chicago earlier than that. But I came back to Chicago in the fall of -- into the Chicago area in the fall of 1960 to go to Lake Forest College. I ended up there kind of by accident. I had applied to -JJ: Where are you living? By Lake Forrest? MJ: I lived in Lake Forest in a dormitory and then I lived in some wealthy folks’ home doing work for them in exchange for room and board. I did that at two different places. And I also lived at Arden Shore Home for Boys, which were kids who were smart but were a little troubled or wise ass. It was up in Lake Bluff, just south of the Great Lakes Naval Training Center. And I worked there -- JJ: Were you sent there or did you -- MJ: No, I worked there. (laughs) I worked there. We would -- and I also worked at Lake Forest Academy [00:15:00] washing dishes in the fall of 1960, I believe. The first time I lived in Chicago was in the summer of 1964. I had graduated from Lake Forest with honors. I got a Woodrow Wilson Fellowship to the University of California Berkeley, is where I took it. I could have gone to -- I had applied to U of C, to Columbia in New York, to Brandeis, but I was interested in -already then I think I was kind of interested in the more radical sociologists. JJ: So you were studying sociology? MJ: I was studying sociology. So I got a job in the summer of 1964 working for a guy named Mel Diamond who was working with Notre Dame Anthropology Department. They were doing a study on Southern White Migrants. I didn’t know a lot -- I don’t know what ever happened with that study, I’m not in touch 8 �with Mel Diamond, [00:16:00] but I spent that summer in Uptown not too far from where I saw you one time on Montrose, on Kenmore Avenue, and I would hang out with these people. An old guy named [Penny Menzer?], who taught me how to roll cigarettes. Which I have not rolled many cigarettes in my life, but I’ve rolled a lot of other things, but I learned that skill when I was there in Uptown in 1964. I also remember drinking Jim Beam from little bottles under the L Track and learning to do various picks on the guitar. I learned how to make biscuits and gravy. I would just hang out, and then go home, and then write notes for these guys. What they did with them I’m not sure. JJ: When did you -- you mentioned political consciousness -- I know it was in the family, but when did you start to do that? MJ: I think I always had [00:17:00] an inclination to stick up for the downtrodden and poor people. I remember at the age of ten being in Florida with my relatives. My dad’s family, a lot of them lived down there, they had moved down there. I remember we were playing with two of my cousins, maybe more of them, and the maid -- they had a maid who was African American -- and the maid’s daughter was there. We were all playing together. I remember my Aunt Helen telling us to go play in the backyard. I asked her why did we have to play in the backyard. She very matter-of-factly said that the neighbors wouldn’t like it in the front yard. That was my first kind of awareness. On that same trip with my father, we went to a business partner of his and a good friend whose stepmother and I guess father had a [00:18:00] turpentine plantation up near Jacksonville -- up there Tallahassee, Florida. We were out on this plantation and I remember driving 9 �around with the foreman in a pickup truck with a rifle in the back. There were all these literally shacks where the Black plantation workers lived. And just being kind of aware of that. That same time on that trip, I think it was probably sitting around, it could have been at a restaurant somewhere, or somewhere with my father, but I think it was actually on this plantation, I referred to the African American waiters, the help, as, “Sir”. My dad called me out on that and of course I held it against my dad for a long time. He said, “You don’t call people who are waiting on you, sir.” And maybe you don’t. I did as a kid. [00:19:00] So that was a real kind of an eye opener. When the Montgomery Bus Boycott started, I was totally involved in that as a young kid, reading about that, following that. In a lot of ways, Black people were my heroes. It took me till much later to realize there were plenty of Black people who were not so noble and all that. But I remember following the Civil Rights Movement. JJ: How -- through books or? MJ: Through the news. My dad was in radio TV so we had a TV from 1948 on. Then when all the stuff was coming down in the South, watching that. I actually as a kid started reading The New York Times. We got The New York Times on Sunday and I would look at the sports section and the ads in the back of that and I obviously read some other stuff. [00:20:00] I also -- my first hero I remember, it was Jackie Robinson of the Dodgers. My dad was a Dodger fan and we went to a guy named Barney [Carlin?] who worked for Castro Convertible Sofas in New York, who was one of my dad’s clients. They took me to a Dodgers game in probably 1947 or 1948. Maybe 1949, I’m not sure, but I could look it up. It was 10 �nine to eight going into the second inning, or was nine to nothing, nine to eight, when the Cardinals were beating the Dodgers, and the Dodgers came back and won it by a run. So Barney Carlin considered me to be a good luck charm, so I got to go to a lot of Dodgers games and they always won. He took me to a game in I think 1952 when Bobby Thompson of the Giants hit the homerun off [00:21:00] of Ralph Branca and the Dodgers lost the pennant. I remember as a kid crying. I had eaten about ten hot dogs, I had my Dodgers hat, I had my Dodger flag, pennant, and I was just totally devastated. Then I was the jinx in my mind. I was even hesitant to go when the Bears won the Super Bowl down in New Orleans, I had tickets, I went with my business partner Katie Hogan, took the train down there, it was a hell of an adventure, and I remember being really kind of worried that I would jinx the team. But the jinx was off, the Dodgers won - excuse me, the Bears won. Since then the White Sox have won, the Bulls have won, I’ve been to some games, I don’t think I have much to do with the determination or the outcome of these great sporting events. You asked about becoming politically aware and socially conscious. I have to say that in high school I had some teachers who were pretty good. I had a guy [00:22:00] named Gordon Hall who -JJ: What high school? MJ: Staples High School in Westport, Connecticut. I graduated in 1960. I was head of the -- I lost the run for the president of the high school, so I was head of the hall patrol, and I think we were a little corrupt because I think we probably smoked in the parking lot. I also was involved in hot rod cars, and to me that was 11 �kind of a class issue. I remember writing these kind of -- I look back on them now, I might be a little critical -- but it was talking about how we built our own cars, and we raised money to fix our cars, and that kind of stuff. Clearly I was a middle class or upper middle class kid, but there were kids in that town who were a lot wealthier, and there were people who had sports cars that their parents bought for them. We saw that as a cutting-edge issue. A little bit later, I don’t know if you want to address it, but I did go to Mexico on a motorcycle trip during 1962, and that a big [00:23:00] eye-opener. JJ: What happened there? MJ: Well even before I get to that, let me go in chronological order. In 1960 I’m applying to colleges. My dad had these great notions that maybe I would go to prep school for an extra year and then I’d play football at Stanford. I don’t think I was that good. I applied to University of Virginia on my dad’s insistence. His friend, the same one whose relatives had this plantation in Florida, had a daughter named Joan Bennett, who married Teddy Kennedy. While we were in - I’m going back to the Florida trip -- I remember hanging out with Joan as a kid and she had skinned her kneecaps while falling through a cattle crossing. My dad -- I’m getting a little lost here. In the summer of 1960 -- [00:24:00] we’re talking about my college. You’re going to have to edit it. JJ: We can move back and forth. MJ: Okay, so my dad wanted me to go to the University of Virginia. I got a nice letter from Joan Bennett Kennedy telling me what a great place it was, how they had tennis, and golf, and all this stuff. And I was just totally turned off my it. On my 12 �application I put down what books had you read, I put Native Son by Richard Wright, I put Strive Toward Freedom by Dr. King, in a lot of ways I think I did sabotage my application. I was on the waiting list to go to University of Virginia. I wanted to go to University of Connecticut where my girlfriend Susan [Lumm?] was going to go. My dad didn’t really want -- he wanted me to go away to school, leave Connecticut. I had applied also to University of Arizona and Arizona State, but I applied to the College Placement Service. It was an outfit that takes a single application and sends it to a number of places. Lo and behold I got accepted at many colleges here in the [00:25:00] Midwest. I had never heard of any of them. But on a Saturday morning when the letter came from Lake Forest, my dad said, “Oh, that’s a great place. I used to go to dances up there.” Okay, dad. Having graduated from high school, not sure where I’m going to go to college, got in my 1940 Ford hot rod car with its 1953 Olds engine with another guy named Buzz [Willouer?], and we took off to work in a cannery. My dad had set me up with this job. His dad had worked for Libby, had come out of - my dad was born in St. Joseph, Missouri, had come to Chicago. JJ: Libby, Indiana, right? MJ: Libby Food. My grandpa Roy had gotten my father jobs at various places, so my dad had the same notion that he could get me jobs. He did. He got me a job in Sunnyvale, California, just outside of San Jose, working in a Libby plant in the summer of 1960. [00:26:00] I leave home, I drive across to Lake Forest where I just gotten this acceptance letter, I stopped in late afternoon, I meet the director of admissions, took off, that night we crossed the old bridge going across the 13 �Mississippi River at St. Louis and into Missouri -- or into Iowa -- no, into Missouri. Iowa is another trip. And I headed west. I had a lot of adventure on that trip. That was an eye opener too. The car overheated in Joplin, Missouri. My friend Buzz got left there in the hospital because when it overheated, I was taking the cap off the radiator as he came bopping over to say what’s happening, and it exploded, and he got burned. I then drove on myself. I stopped in Oklahoma City. I had just seen the movie Psycho with my girlfriend in Connecticut, so I thought that was the same road to California that I was on [00:27:00] in that movie. I distinctly remember being in a shower at a motel with my back to the wall with my fists ready if any mother came after me. (laughs) I drove -- I picked up some hitchhikers, people going to join the Marine Corp in San Diego. I went through some towns in Arizona with Native people on reservations. I remember being at a truck stop in California as you come out of the desert, not too far from Mexicali, where there were Blacks, and Latinos, and whites, and it was the morning. I remember driving up the coast. Then I ended up letting another hitchhiker, a migrant worker who was going to pick peaches in Fresno, he wanted to get off -- I was taking the cut off to San Jose. I pulled over, the car apparently stalled, and we had to jump start it. I think we had just jump [00:28:00] started it, he was out of the car, I jumped back in the car, the lights were not on, I got rear ended by people coming home from a wedding on a Sunday night. I was pulled out of a burning car by a truck driver. I remember waking up on the other side of the road. This would be Highway 101. There’s a song back in the time called The Fool was the Terror of Highway 101. I 14 �remember saying, “There’s a guy in that car!” And I started to go run across the street and the truck driver grabbed me and said, “If he’s in there now, he’s dead.” Turns out he was okay and the police had talked to him later. That summer though I worked for just a number of weeks because I wanted to go back and see my girlfriend, which was an issue. My dad was disappointed I didn’t stay longer. But I did work at the Sunnyvale Cannery for a period of time. I have my union card still. I joined the teamsters, the Cannery Workers Union. I worked with a Black kid and a [00:29:00] Mexican kid and we worked with the garbage dump. I had to go into these vats in the giant freezer buildings to clean out the sludge of the antifreeze in these big moon suits kind of gloves keeping us warm. It’s twenty below zero in there. It was an eye opener for me. Because the main thing, the distinct thing I remember was I showed up to work and there were lines of lines of people waiting for jobs, Mexicans, Blacks, white, probably some Filipinos, that was the nucleus of what formed the Farm Workers Union later, so I’m assuming there were Filipinos there too. Maybe, maybe not. But I showed up to work and I had a job. I got to walk right in, I got to fill out my papers, pay my union dues, all that stuff, and all these other people are waiting for a job. That’s a distinct [00:30:00] memory that I have talking about that and saying I really understand privilege and in this case probably white-skinned privilege, which is a term [Nolan Nathan?], who we both knew, he used to -- he’d bring up and it’s probably still really relevant today. So that summer was kind of an eye opener for me. I went back to home. My dad picked me up at the airport, the car had burned up and was in the junk yard. I do have photographs of it. My dad 15 �gave me that kind of look that dads give their kids when they’re disappointed. I got to see my girlfriend Susan and then my parents and I drove out to Lake Forest College where they left me. My first distinct memory at Lake Forest College was someone coming up to me and telling me I’m supposed to wear this beanie. They had the little red and black thing you put on your head. I had been voted the coolest in my high school. There’s a photograph in my high school yearbook of Casey Cutmore and myself shivering [00:31:00] like we’re the coolest. But I thought of myself as a cool dude and I certainly was not going to wear this beanie. Then my dad said to me, he said, “I don’t think things have changed that much in twenty years. You should wear it.” I said, “Maybe thirty years, dad, or forty.” I don’t know how long ago. But Lake Forest was a great place to go. I went there by accident. They were recruiting kids from the east who didn’t get into probably better prep schools or better colleges, but had come out of prep schools, so there were a number of those folks. There were a number of what I would call North Shore screw ups, people from some wealth and money from the North Shore who had gone to eastern schools or other schools, and were living at home for some reason, or had screwed up. Then there were a number of people who were kind of upwardly mobile working class. One example was a beer truck driver’s kid who I knew. [00:32:00] Lake Forest was sort of changing its vibe. They had a number of young teachers out of University of Chicago, older teachers, all kinds of interest-- I’m sure at every school there are really interesting professors. A guy named Dr. [Roose?], Jerry Gerasimo, [Tomasovic?], there just were a lot of people that I think gave me 16 �some direction. Because I wanted to be I thought at that time -JJ: You had conversations or -- MJ: Oh yeah. And there was a lot of opportunity to hang out with your teachers at that small school. I had gone off to college thinking I was going to be a minister. I had grown up in the congregational church. I guess I looked up to a minister named Ted Hoskins and kind of wanted to be a minister. The only hitch was I couldn’t get the Jesus part. I would say, “Why is Jesus --” [00:33:00] This is me in high school, “Why is Jesus anymore the son of God than Dr. King or Ghandi?” And the only answer they would give me is I just know. The other thing I was interested in was social work, helping people. I wanted to help people so I figured social work. JJ: And major, that was the major for you -- MJ: Well I’m still figuring out -- I ended up going into sociology because that’s what I thought was going to be social work. I had a professor named Dr. Roose who really broke my heart when I came back a few years later from Berkeley, and was involved in the movement, and the Anti-War Movement, and maybe he was being a devil’s advocate, but he was challenging me around the War in Vietnam. But before that, he really gave me a lot of direction. He basically said, “So you want to help people.” He said, “All right, that’s great, but who’s going to concern themselves with the structural forces that shape peoples’ lives? The social, the economic, the political conditions, the environment in which people are reared that leave them to end up [00:34:00] one way or another. Or at least influence it.” So that was how I ended up wanted to be a sociologist or a minister. I ended up 17 �in sociology at Lake Forest. Over the course of a few years I definitely think I’m going to become a sociology professor. I liked the participant/observer in sociology where you go into a situation and kind of are one with the people. I certainly read about sociologists studying poor communities in Chicago and other places. I did a lot of anthropology. I did end up getting a Woodrow Wilson Fellowship. I went to Berkeley. That’s another segment we can get to. But I also did still entertain this minister notion. I believe I was offered a Danforth’s Fellowship [00:35:00] to go to divinity school. It was designed for people who were open to being a minister but weren’t planning on it. I think there was the Peabody Divinity School at Harvard, I think I was thinking about going there. But when I got into Berkeley, I thought that would be the hippest of all of sociology, and I ended up going to Berkeley. Now in this time one of the things I haven’t addressed yet was taking a motorcycle trip to Mexico. As I had mentioned earlier I was into hot rod cars. I also liked motorcycles. I had driven all over eastern Connecticut at age ten on Saturday or Sunday mornings with Vic [Birchy?], who would have been as the third on the back of a Harley. He’d have one woman in the morning and then he’d have another date in the afternoon. He had warned me not to mention the morning to the afternoon. So I was being introduced to the conniving [00:36:00] sneaky ways of men. Which I try not to do too much of. But at Lake Forest I bought a motorcycle up at Sunset Cycle Sales in -- what’s that little religious town up to the north here? JJ: Zion. MJ: Zion, Illinois. It was yellow. It was a 1956 Thunderbird. It kind of had the license 18 �plate on the front wheel, had a kind of a windshield on it. I had wanted to, as I say, help people, and one of the things that -- I did apply to the Vista and the Peace Corp, that kind of thing, but they weren’t really happening yet. I remember also looking at American Friends Service Committee actions that were going to happen or activities in Mexico. Anyway, I ended up [00:37:00] applying to Mexico City College, which is now Universidad de las Américas. I think it’s in Puebla. But it was kind of a school for hippies and gringos up on the Carretera México Toluca outside of Mexico City. I rode my bike down there. I drove from here to Peoria where my girlfriend Lucia lived and then the next day I drove to Little Rock, Arkansas. The next day I drove to Victoria, Texas. The next day I drove through Brownsville-Matamoros to Ciudad Victoria. And then the next morning I ended up -- by the afternoon I ended up in Mexico City. Obviously for a young kid once you cross the border it’s just complete contrast. Everyone trying to sell you Chiclets, kids with their hands out, beggars, [00:38:00] people, you know, it’s just a border scene. You can probably find that in a lot of borders on both sides in many ways. But Mexico really opened my eyes up. The Cuban Revolution had just happened, so while I was certainly a supporter of President Kennedy at the time, I also dug the Cuban Revolution. While I was there, Kennedy showed up with Alliance for Progress, where they let all the Latin American countries except Cuba in. It turns out Lopez Mateos, the President of Mexico, and their policy was they cleared the streets of the leftists, there was a big welcome for Kennedy. I took two photographs of that that I have, as well as the scene, more of those, and lots of pictures in Mexico which I have put together 19 �over the years in an exhibit called Mexico ‘62. That was fifty years ago this summer. [00:39:00] Actually on this date, the 14th, back in 1962 I think I had been in San Miguel de Allende, and I wrote some notes about it. I have a lot of writing. I have these beautiful photographs. Tonight at a gallery called Phantom Gallery over at Berteau and Damen is an opening of some of my photos, a selection from that show, along with other peoples’ stuff. So that just happens to be happening tonight. That kind of covers the Lake Forest years. One of the other really important things I guess I should mention is we would go to -- we would go down to Chicago to check things out. We’d go to the University of Chicago. I remember seeing the great socialist Norman Thomas at the University of Chicago. I remember the book The Other America by [00:40:00] Michael Harrington, who I got to meet later and hang out with a little bit at a party at Berkeley. But that book had a big impact on me. I saw him speak at the University of Chicago too. I remember dropping people off. I couldn’t go because I was in a play, they needed a big guy to play the executioner in Anouilh’s The Lark, and I was a football player at Lake Forest. I was six-two, I was in better shape than now. I didn’t get to go to Washington to the first big peace march, but I did drop people off down there who were from Lake Forest who were going. So obviously at Lake Forest we had a lot of things starting to happen. One of the things that really popped for me is I had wanted to join the Marine Corp and I had applied -- I had grown up wanting to be a Marine. You know, we played Marine crawling on our stomachs and all that. There was a guy named Buzz [Bailey?] I think his name was, worked at the [00:41:00] Sport Mart. 20 �It was a local independent in the old days called the Sport Mart. He had come back from the war, and Iwo Jima, and these kind of images, and I just wanted to be a Marine. At Lake Forest I joined the Platoon Leader Corp, which meant I would spend summers at Quantico training to be a Marine, and then I would be an officer in the Marines when I got out. Fortunately, I think, in the course of those probably around 1962 or so, 1963, maybe 1962, a group of demonstrators called the Moscow to San Francisco Peace March who were a lot -- I think there were a lot of Brits -- came through. They had just been up to the Great Lakes Naval Training Center, which is just north of Lake Forest. They came to campus and they talked about -- that’s the first time I saw the peace symbol. You know the -- and they talked about war [00:42:00] and they talked about peace. And that was it. I flipped. I was not going to be a Marine anymore. I didn’t go through with it. That was -- from then on I was consciously part of the movement. I was reading about the Civil Rights Movement. I was SNCC, Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee showed up in Chicago to do a benefit or to raise money with the Freedom Singers. I remember we invited them to Lake Forest College. We had them perform at the college and I was the guy who got to drive them back down to Hyde Park. So I met James Foreman there, Willy Peacock. I remember people asking for money to get back to Mississippi and the performance gives them twenty-five bucks a piece. One of them says -Bernard Lafayette or Willy Peacock, somebody says, “We can’t get there on that.” He says, “You have to.” And I’m not sure who the family was that was having it there, some socialist that I know I have the same somewhere. 21 �[00:43:00] But that was big influence on me. I remember when Goodman, Chaney, and Schwerner were killed. I followed the SNCC people all along. It was only a couple of years later till I would start meeting a lot of these people coming out of Mississippi and working in other projects in the north. I don’t think I have any more great stories at the tip of my -JJ: What about -- where does SDS come in? MJ: The first time I heard of SDS was at Lake Forest College because we had taken over the school newspaper called the Stentor. The Stentor were always a rahrah college paper and we started putting challenging the sororities and the fraternities. There was a service called the College Press Service. College Press Service came out of [00:44:00] the National Student Association, which later we learned was implicated in working with the CIA and bringing foreign students over here. But we did get their weekly releases. I remember reading about a conference in Hazard, Kentucky of unemployed miners, SNCC workers, Northern Student Movement people, which was another group that Danny Schechter the News Dissector, who does a lot of media stuff in New York, he was the leader of that as I recall, and also Students for Democratic Society. You had these people meeting together talking about students, and Civil Rights, and unemployed white workers, you know, miners, and it captured my attention. I go off to Berkeley summer of 1964. As I say, I worked in Uptown that summer, finished up, got in my -- I had a 1957 Ford convertible. I got it from a guy at Lake Forest [00:45:00] named Richard Simon. And I drove that car across the eastern sector back to Connecticut and then I headed back west to Berkeley. I showed 22 �up at the University of California Berkeley and when I went to register and get all squared away, there was a police car sitting in the middle of the campus surrounded by students. The guy in the car was a guy named Jack Weinberg, who was a long-time activist, and I think he may still work with Green Peace, and lives over on the shore somewhere of Lake Michigan in Indiana. I haven’t see Jack in a while. I think he probably was in -- I don’t know if that’s true he was in the International Socialists. That was one of the first things at Berkeley, all of the sudden there were a million tables. There were the SNCC people, there were the DuBois Society, [00:46:00] there were SDS. Not so much SDS right away. But there were all these political groups out there talking to you in Sproul Hall in the plaza. And I showed up and there was already this police car was surrounded. And what happened was the university was trying to say you could not raise money on campus for off-campus activities. I had believed in the Civil Rights Movement, I believed in SNCC. SNCC captured my heart. Bob Moses or Bob Paris, you know, who was really -- did a lot of the key voter registration, leadership stuff. These were my heroes. So what do you mean you can’t raise money to support off-campus activities? From the first moment I got to Berkeley it was going on. I’m living out in a little town called Canyon with it’s little hippie town a few miles out of Berkeley. [00:47:00] A guy name Skip [Richeimer?], who was -- I had known. He had a motorcycle, he took a lot of photographs, he was a graduate student at the University of Chicago, and I had met him through some people at Lake Forest. And I had gotten into the motorcycle stuff, Danny Lyon, the famed photographer who did the book The Bikeriders and a lot of Civil Rights 23 �stuff was one of those guys. Skip was a contact I had at Berkeley, so when I got out there, I stayed with him and his then wife out in Canyon. Soon after I met Davey Wellman, who was the president of the Graduate Sociology Club, whose father was a commissar in the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, was the head of the Communist Party in Michigan. Davey had over the next course of time shared a lot of information about having a -- his mother was from Canada, which he was from the States, being followed around by the FBI. [00:48:00] I was learning a lot about the left pretty quickly. I moved in with Davey at 5600 Telegraph in Berkeley, in Oakland, there was a bar downstairs next door. I remember meeting Lou Rawls there one night. Around the corner I saw Little Junior Parker play. It’s not there anymore, but we had our crib there, and while I was starting graduate work in sociology this police car was still there surrounded by these students. We ended up having the Free Speech Movement. Every day there would be a rally on campus and there would be a speaker. Whether it was Willie Brown, who was a state rep. JJ: You were there when it began? MJ: I was there when it began. I remember -- you asked about first hearing about SDS. Besides reading about it in the College Press Service, I remember someone saying -- sitting around in this demonstration scene, someone saying, “Oh there’s the SDS.” [00:49:00] And I found on the ground a little pamphlet in the course of that first period of time at Berkeley. The pamphlet had an older Black gentleman, not old, was a lot younger than I am now, with a box with apples. He was selling apples. The pamphlet said, “Build the interracial 24 �movement of the poor.” I had always had this kind of -- from college at Lake Forest I had written a paper where I envisioned a world where you would be wearing a Dutch shoes, a kimono, a yarmulke, eating Chinese food while listening to the John Lee Hooker sing the blues. I was always into this kind of rainbow coalition notion. SDS talked about building a movement in poor communities in both Black and white [00:50:00] and I assumed Latino, although that wasn’t -- there was a Puerto Rican community in New York, there was one in Chicago, Toledo, obviously there were some Puerto Ricans who had been taken to Hawaii, but the Latino thing was not like it is today where the Mexicans have come everywhere, and the Puerto Ricans have expanded, and you’ve got a lot of other countries too. This is my dog Che. (laughter) JJ: Che? Che’s (inaudible). So what you’re saying, it sounds like it was they were there, it was just that they weren’t speaking out or? MJ: I don’t think there were as many Mexicans. You had a small Mexican community in Chicago, or not that small, 18th Street, and you also had down by the Bush, who actually were silver miners that were brought from Colorado to work in the steel mills. Or after silver closed up, or however it worked. [00:51:00] That’s where -- I remember reading this. You certainly had Mexicans. But you go anywhere in this country today and there are Mexican restaurants, there are Mexican kids in school, there are Mexican lawn people. You didn’t have that in the 1950s and 1960s. You had it in a few places, I’m sure California, Arizona, but it wasn’t widespread. And this was before the Brown Berets, before Caesar Chavez, that kind of thing. However, correcting myself. When I first drove to 25 �Berkeley in 1964, I stopped in Delano -- is that where -JJ: Delano, yeah. MJ: Delano, Delano. Delano is a Roosevelt. Delano. We knew about the farm workers. Obviously we did know about them then because I stopped there and I had a meeting with Caesar Chavez. I had my Lake Forest College football jacket, which I remember leaving as a donation. I’d love to have it back. I got one later from a guy [00:52:00] who was selling it on the street near here and it was a little small on me. So the farm worker stuff was already starting to happen and I was aware of it actually. I did meet Chavez again. Later, as you know, during the Rainbow Coalition, we all did a lot of work around the Great Boycott, etcetera. But Chavez showed up at the Heartland Café one time. He told me he was interested in jazz. I have, you’ll notice here I have, I don’t know if anyone wants to pan on it, but I have a lot of jazz and a lot of other music. But this was all in my office. I took him in the back and I showed him my jazz collection. There are records here from the 1950s on. (laughs) He said, “Would you make me some tapes of some of these?” I said, “Sure.” He made a pile literally three feet high of my records that he wanted me to convert to tapes for him. Whether or not I would have done that, who knows. [00:53:00] They have technology that does that these days. But unfortunately he passed away. I don’t think I have any pictures of him at the Heartland, but he was there. We were talking about SDS and we were talking about first getting involved with SDS. I heard about SDS. I found the pamphlet that said, “Build the interracial movement of the poor.” I was already trying to figure out how you would bring Black, white, Latino, Asian, 26 �American Indian together. I really had this notion, this melting pot notion, of America. This Rainbow Coalition notion of America. I wrote to SDS and said, “I would like to build the interracial movement of the poor. How do I get involved?” I got a letter back I think from Paul Booth, who has been an activist for a long time with AFSCME Union, and he wrote back, “Well, you have to build it.” [00:54:00] I remember a guy named Mike Davis showing up and Mike Davis has written a lot of interesting books. And he was an SDS traveler. He was the guy that signed my card, my SDS card, and we joined up. My interest in studying sociology was beginning to wane. We had the Free Speech Movement happening, we had the Vietnam Day Committee happening, we had massive marches into Oakland, and I wanted to start a project. So a number of us who were in the Sociology Department who were forming this little SDS network, we ended up moving into West Oakland. I think it was the wrong time for mostly whites. There was one African American guy who had been involved in SNCC a little bit. [00:55:00] I think his name was John Thomas, I’m not sure. I somewhere have a photograph of him. We moved into a place at Seventh and Henry Street in West Oakland, not too far from the Southern Pacific Yards. I remember a band of people from the Peter Maurin House, which is the Catholic Worker Anarchists, and they were mostly Black, and mostly drunk, and they were coming around, and wanted to know what the action was, and what was happening. I remember walking around with an older Black gentleman who would try and shield me from the young kids and the younger tough people. “Oh, you don’t want to talk to those people.” He saw these white kids coming in to try 27 �to help. We worked in an issue in Peralta Village, which I think was public housing, about them tearing down fences or putting up fences, I’m not quite sure what it was. But it was not really the time to be [00:56:00] necessarily working in a Black neighborhood when you were mostly white. We did go to the Newark Poor Peoples Conference, which was all of the SDS projects. So the Oakland people, we drove across country. We drove across with a guy named Doy Gorton, who had worked with SNCC a little bit, a white kid out of Mississippi who is now married to Jane Adams, who was an SDS national officer at one time. They were living in Carbondale. He was a young kind of SNCC photographer, a connected guy. We all drove to Newark for the Poor Peoples’ Conference. I think the JOIN people were probably there, there were some other projects. I met a woman on the way there who was here at JOIN, we stopped at JOIN, named Casey Hayden. Now Casey Hayden was married to Tom Hayden. She was one of the first white woman working in the South and one of the white people who were moved out of SNCC at the end when Stokely came on with Black Power. [00:57:00] I met Casey in Uptown and we hitchhiked to Cleveland and we stayed at the Cleveland Project for a few days. Then we hitchhiked to Newark. So I drove as far as Chicago with Doy Gorton and some people, after that we hitchhiked. After the conference, she and I and a sociology student named Nigel Young from England and his wife Antonia, had a drive away car that we drove -- we were driving back to Berkeley. We did go through Idaho, and we saw a lot of the country, and took some pictures. Casey was really in a place where she was kind of mourning leaving SNCC. She wrote a lot of poetry 28 �[00:58:00] along with Mary Varela about that time. That’s what was occupying her time. I was a graduate student and I also had this Oakland project and we were going to move back into Oakland. Myself and Barry Kalish, who had worked in Newark, and I think a woman named Robinson, a Black woman who had worked in Newark, they were a couple, and myself, and Vivian Rothstein. She had a different name then. She’s been active in LA for years. We moved back to another place in West Oakland. But it just wasn’t happening because what was going on even that summer was the Anti-War Movement and stopping the troop trains. So you had a situation where those of us working in West Oakland were always going to these demonstrations with lots of other people from the Bay Area trying to stop the troop trains. [00:59:00] I remember these trains coming through very slowly as they cleared us off the tracks. Later some guys lost their legs, years later, trying to stop troop trains going to Iraq or -- this was Vietnam. So there’s been a lot of people trying to stop troop trains. I remember these shaved head white kids in the train just kind of laughing but with this fearful look as we were slapping these signs against the window and saying, “No, Vietnam! Get out of Vietnam! Bring the troops home!” Whatever we were yelling. But clearly the move was to the Anti-War Movement. And then the antiuniversity oppression movement, schools as factories movement. There weren’t a lot of people at the time, the Civil Rights Movement was going on, but moving into poor neighborhoods. I went to a SNCC benefit at the Filmore in San Francisco. It was a Bill Graham kind of [01:00:00] production. Richard Pryor was there, the Grateful Dead were there, the Jefferson Starship were there, 29 �Airplane were there, Quicksilver Messenger Service, Richard Pryor the comedian, the great Black comedian, and Stokely Carmichael. I remember talking to Stokely and I said, “Stokely, I’m going to leave graduate school. I’m going to go get involved in one of this SDS project, not Oakland, that’s ended. I’m either going to go to Newark and work with Tom Hayden or I’m going to go Uptown and work with JOIN Community Union, Rennie Davis,” and people who were here then. Very clearly he says, “Work with whit e people.” He says, “We’ve got a lot going on in the Black community, we need more happening in the white community.” And that was my decision to go back to Uptown where I had [01:01:00] worked with this anthropologist in the summer of 1964, it’s now the spring of 1966, and I decided to do this. I was in the middle of writing a paper at Berkeley. As I say, I was already trying to figure out before I got involved with the interracial movement of the poor, I was always trying to figure out how you brought people together. I was studying conflict theory and try to figure out how you would overcome peoples’ negatives, bring them together, find the positive things. I was writing a paper on organizing the poor and I was comparing three attempts. I was comparing the government efforts with the war on poverty, Alinsky’s work with the Woodlawn Organization, [01:02:00] and the SDS projects. Of course the SDS projects came out the best in my writing. I basically completed enough work, all I had was a couple incompletes I think, to have gotten a Masters, but the decision of the department was that in order for me if I wanted to continue to get a PhD at Berkeley, I would 30 �have to write another paper about something other than poverty. I was not up for that. In the spring of -- April of 1966 I think I turned in this paper on organizing the poor and I drove back in that 1957 Ford convertible back to Chicago with a guy named Burt Steck, who was already working in JOIN, to work in Uptown. And I showed up on a summer -- I had a few adventures [01:03:00] traveling across country, but basically end up in Uptown. Well, the only real adventure I’d like to share is we stopped in Des Moines. There was a guy named Fred Stover at the United States Farmers Association. Stover had been the -- whatever you call -- the Secretary of Agriculture under Roosevelt. He had come out as opposing the Korean War, so that probably ended his career. But he had this kind of radical farmers organization. We had set up to meet him and talk. Carl Davidson of SDS, he’s an active dude to this day, thank you, Carl. He I think had made the initial contact with him. I ended up waiting for his office to open, and we were sleeping in the car, and the police rousted us, and they [01:04:00] -- we had kind of longer hair and they wanted to know if we had dope or marijuana. I said no way. It was -- I always get along with cops pretty much. Not always, but I have with a lot of them. We had a little chat and then Stover took us out to eat. We talked about farming, and agriculture, and the Anti-War Movement. Then I drove on to Chicago where the JOIN people were active up on Argyle in front of Price Right TV, some brothers named Price, southern guys. The protest was all about Mrs. Hinton, who was an Indian from India. She had had her TV repaired there and she said she was ripped off. We were demonstrating that she should get her money back or some kind of justice. These guys were very hostile. I 31 �remember they came out -- I was a welcome sight on a picket line anywhere. I was a big guy, had worked [01:05:00] out, I’d played football, and thought of myself as someone -- I’ve certainly always been aware that plenty of people I get into situations with that could probably wipe me up, but you also don’t show a lot of fear, and you do talk and reason, and then -- so anyhow, I ended up engaged in these guys and later they became involved in JOIN Community Union, and you win them over. You always try to win the enemy over, win the opposition, or overcome what we call false consciousness. Marx called it that first where people act in the interests that’s opposed to their real interest. Which is why you have workers going for the Republicans. That was the beginning of my life in Uptown. JJ: So now joining -- MJ: Can I get -- can I get you to get me another hit of this coffee? JJ: A small -- (break in recording) MJ: Okay, we’re talking about JOIN. I was sharing with you the life and times of JOIN Community Union. [01:06:00] JOIN was one of the projects of SDS, Students for a Democratic Society, and it was before SDS really became the big major group that it was around the Anti-War Movement. Before that it was about poverty. And this was fifty years, I believe, since the Port Huron Statement, so there’s a lot of talk about the Port Huron Statement, which was written by the early SDS people, Tom Hayden and some others. That’s going on around the country right now. SDS was very much concerned with poverty at that time. They initiated the projects to build the interracial movement of the poor. As I was saying a little bit 32 �earlier, I got involved. I was attracted to [01:07:00] the project as a whole. Stokely Carmichael encouraged me to go work with poor whites and I did that, I went to Uptown. JOIN had originally been a joint effort of both the Students for a Democratic Society and the packing house workers, particularly with Jesse Prosten, who was the head of the packing house workers here in Chicago, to my understanding. The idea was to work around jobs or income now. In other words, we need jobs or we need some money. They tried to organize unemployed people. That’s why the original pamphlet I’d seen is a picture of a Black guy selling apples in front of an unemployment office. What they used to do is the student volunteers here in Chicago, they would go out to Lawrence Avenue over by the unemployment comp office, and they would get names, and talk to people. [01:08:00] They didn’t really see it as a real movement developing, so they ended up taking the contact cards, and they determined that most of them, or the majority, or the largest number, came out of Uptown, which was 60640. They decided to move into Uptown with a concept of a community union. So instead of jobs or income now it became JOIN Community Union. Join the community union, just like a labor union works in the plant, or the factory, or wherever it is to secure workers’ rights and better conditions, a community union would do that in community. You would organize people around issues of welfare, housing, police, food, you name it. So when I showed up it was now JOIN Community Union. [01:09:00] And we actually over the course of 1966 to -JJ: It’s union organizing at the community level. 33 �MJ: Yeah, tried to build this kind of one big union notion. On every issue we’re going to have some action on it. What JOINT actually did was have an office -- they had a couple offices. One up on Argyle, that’s -- and then one on Sheridan Road, 4431 North Sheridan, on the east side of the street. What happened, when I showed up there all these welfare people would be coming in. Welfare was a real issue. JOIN had a welfare union that included Black, white, Native American, Latinos, it was a whole lot of different people. Mainly southern white, but the leadership were these two Black women, Big Debbie and Little Debbie, Debbie [Coleman?] and Debbie [Thurman?], both who I think have passed away. [01:10:00] We had demonstrations at the welfare office. You can’t treat people with disrespect, people have rights. These student activists were actually working with the clients, so to speak, to help make sure they got their just do. Then other than that we had developed rent strikes. We took on some buildings on Kenmore, various other places. I spent time, I remember, going into basements and turning on people’s electricity and gas that had been turned off. I learned that skill early. Then we found that the majority of the people around who were involved were not so much the men but the women and the young guys. Not the young girls. Little girlfriend action. It was mainly young guys. So what we ended up doing was starting a thing called -- the young guys [01:11:00] put together the Good Fellows and there was a Good Fellows Hall on Wilson Avenue. This was across from where Reverend Morey had had an outreach center where initially people -- we met people. And the Good Fellows were a part of JOIN but were kind of independent and they had a march on the police. 34 �There were a lot of repercussions from that. The police came back and were busting a lot of people, but it was over harassment of kids, people in the neighborhood. A number of these people who were involved in the Good Fellows and in JOIN, young guys, became the nucleus of what were the Young Patriots, which comes along a little bit later, as well as Rising Up Angry. These things overlapped a lot. We’ll get to that history in a minute. But JOIN had developed a food buying co-op, we had the rent strikes, we had the [01:12:00] marches and the demonstrations at the welfare office, we had talked about police brutality, and we put out a newspaper. I’ve always been involved and started newspapers, but this one was called The Firing Line. It started as a newsletter. We recruited a local welfare mother who turns out had had a little bit of political indoctrination, Peggy Terry. Peggy Terry has been written up and featured in a number of Studs Terkel’s books, she was on a PBS thing about people coming north in the 1940s around the war time. She was out of Oklahoma; she says she was a racist. But she ended up linking up with a guy named Gil Terry, who was in some political sect later on, and they were in Birmingham, so she was down there in Birmingham during the [01:13:00] bus boycott and that kind of stuff, and she got turned around. She was living in Chicago, she had some kids. Her older son, who has passed away, guy had been in trouble. He became a real leader with the Young Patriots early on. That’s Doug Youngblood. There’s another kid who I think is in prison still, but about to get out. There’s a daughter who did really well and has been active over the years. Peggy and I became good friends and she became the editor of The Firing Line and we turned it into a 35 �newspaper. We’d have little stories about like there’s one [Fawn?] Madden who was related to Junebug Boykin who was a name that comes up around JOIN and the Patriots, even Rising Up Angry. Fawn, I remember interviewing Fawn about life in Hazard, Kentucky and coming up to Chicago and what it was like. So we had a lot going on. [01:14:00] The police raided JOIN. They busted my sister and Pat Sturgis, who had showed up not too -- he had gone to Lake Forest with me and he was coming to help out. Then my sister came and left college and was going to work and do a community theater, which she did. We had the JOIN Community Theater, which put on plays at our meetings, put on plays in empty lots over let’s turn this lot into the Hank Williams Memorial Playground. The plays were really kind of evil landlord, you know, and virtuous tenants. They were great. But she had just shown up -JJ: What was the raid for? She had just shown up. MJ: The raid is the police are getting pissed off at us. She had just come to Chicago. Or Patrick, one of them had. There were two in the office and they got busted. If you look in a book called JOIN or Uptown, called Uptown by [01:15:00] Nancy Hollander or Nancy Gitlin and Todd Gitlin. It’s not so much about JOIN, but it’s about life of southern white migrants in Chicago. In that book is a picture -- I believe that’s where that picture is -- of the office wrecked by the police. There’s also a couple pictures of me at a welfare demonstration at Hilliard’s office. Hilliard was the head guy of welfare then. Later on every one got off of that case because they planted dope. It was really blatant. But it was an issue we had to deal with. Out of that came a group called Citizens -- or no, Citizens Alert. 36 �Today on my radio show I had John -JJ: Conroy. MJ: John Conroy. Today I had John Conroy on my radio show and I know that he’s the guy that broke the John Burge [01:16:00] story and the police torture over 22 years -- he followed it. But one of the groups that was active around that whole issue was Citizens Alert. Citizens Alert is not unlike what the Black Panthers did right around that time, but we didn’t know about, where they followed police around. We followed the police around in Uptown. They didn’t like that a whole lot. So that was going on back then. There was a lot of really interesting activity going on in Uptown. In 1968 the focus shifted from poverty to the war. I myself, I would say I was a little backward. I didn’t want the Democratic Convention to come to town and the demonstrations around it. I thought that would interfere with what I considered to be the very long slow arduous process of becoming one with the people, winning people’s trust, winning them over time, so that they could be about social change. That was [01:17:00] the thought. You had to spend a lot of time with people. However, once the Democratic Convention was coming to town it was pretty clear that young people were getting into this and it was happening. But Rennie Davis, who was the de facto leader, one of them, of the JOIN Community Union, went over to Bratislava to meet with the Vietnamese and with the National Liberation Front. This was all going on. The war was starting to happen big time. Rennie is gone and a number of other people decide to leave. The young guys in the neighborhood, influenced by a really treacherous dude named Tom Mosher, who had been -- he is the son of a 37 �teamster enforcer, he had gone to Stanford, he had worked Al Lowenstein in Mississippi around SNCC stuff, and he [01:18:00] was hanging around Reverend Morey’s haul in Uptown, and with the young guys. He became a little bit involved with JOIN. He went to Cuba with the SDS people and then wrote about it for the Reader’s Digest. He was involved in all kinds of stuff at Stanford. I think he was involved in the murder of Mark Comfort and other people in early organizing prePanthers out there on the West Coast. There was an article recently in a French magazine by Steve Weissman from SDS, which goes through the details on this guy you wouldn’t believe. Later on he works for (inaudible), so tell you where he’s at. But Mosher is -- I think he’s fanning the flames of division between the students organizers and the young guys in Uptown. Because at the SDS convention in Bloomington, Indiana with Peggy Terry as their front person, and Youngblood, and Dave Puckett, and Junebug, and Bobby Lee -- not Bobby Lee. [01:19:00] Bobby McGinnis, etcetera, Bobby Joe they called him. They declared their independence. JJ: Hy Thurman, was he involved? MJ: He was around too. His older brother had been involved more, Melvin Thurman, I think. Anyhow, they declared their independence from SDS. You can find this in the New Left notes if you really want to dig through the history. Then they kicked out all of the remaining students. JOIN kicked out all of the remaining students except for me. I’m still in their good graces. (laughs) And there had been a guy who showed up at that time whose nickname was Preacherman. What is his real name? 38 �JJ: William -- MJ: Fesperman. JJ: Fesperman, yeah. MJ: Now William Fesperman [01:20:00] and his wife -- JJ: Hold on a second. (break in recording) MJ: All right. I was sharing about the young guys in Uptown, I think under the influence of Tom Mosher, they kick out all of the JOIN people, all of the students, except for me, and at the same time Preacherman shows up. I only vaguely remember this guy being around. He was a divinity student. He was at McCormick Theological Seminary. He had a beret and they thought of this Young Patriots. The Young Patriots, as you know, in Mike Gray’s American Revolution 2 there’s a lot of footage of Bobby Lee meeting with these young kids in Uptown, these young white kids. Well, some of them were not southern whites like Jimmy Cartier, who was a football player from Lake Forest out of Waukegan with me, [01:21:00] who was one of the early Rising Up Angry people, he’s in that movie. Bobby Lee in the movie is talking about how we’ve got to work together and all of that. There’s these young kids who become the Young Patriot. Fesperman, along with Doug Youngblood, Hy Thurman, Junebug, some other people, they ended up having an office, they ended up taking the Firing Line, which was the JOIN paper, and it really was very hard for me to take. They put out a thing that said, “White power”. They certainly meant it in the sense that okay, Fred used to talk about red power to red people, brown power to brown people, black power to black people, white power to white people, you know, 39 �brown power to brown people, and he would do that rap, and that was we have to kind of -- it’s hillbilly nationalist. There’s a new book out called [01:22:00] Hillbilly Nationalists: Urban Race Rebels and Black Power. There was the -- and I actually flirted with that too. Uptown was like hillbilly migrant’s Harlem. One of the things that distinguished us from other groups that worked with the Panthers, other mainly white groups, is that we were not about just being a support for the Panthers, we were about fighting for the rights, the integrity, the justice for oppressed white people or exploited white people. That was clearly a different -made us different than I think some of the groups like the National Committee to Combat Fascism, which came out of the Panthers and led to whatever Slim’s groups were. They were mainly support groups. We certainly played that role, but we were also about white people got to get organized too around their own self interests. I think the Young Patriots tried to [01:23:00] do that a little bit. So there was a big splash. The Panthers, particularly when Preacherman went to Oakland to some conference and gave a speech. You had the Young Patriots with confederate flags on their backs, that kind of stuff, showing up and talking about getting along with the Black Panther Party. But there was a split after that. I don’t have a lot of the details. I know that there were some internal issues with some of the people of the local Young Patriots and the police, some not too hip stuff. It kind of left some people disenchanted with each other and there was kind of a split. The Young Patriots did go to New York, had something going, and there was a Young Patriots thing up in Washington state, Oregon, or something. And they had an office for a while over on Racine because the 40 �landlord was Irv Birnbaum who had been a landlord and a supporter or lawyer for JOIN. [01:24:00] I kind of split places then. I had this notion, I had this vision really, of -- I drew a picture. It was a picture of a flower and it said Wildwood Flower, which was a famous country tune by the Carter Family. I said who knows about Wildwood Flower? Not a lot of college students, but millions and millions of Americans living out there. Now it’s not a political song but to me it was just like there are a lot of white people that were -- I thought of people listening to country music as poor, that kind of thing. Not that it has the mainstream aspects today. I had made the decision to work with white people. I guess I flirted with some kind of nationalism. It wasn’t nationalism in the sense of us versus them, it was like you can love yourself and love the whole. And that was always my -- in fact, I’m going to say it right now, the way I put [01:25:00] things to students, I say the best hope for white people is at some time in the world they will be viewed as an international minority that works for the good of the whole. You can say that about the United States. Hopefully the United States gets viewed in the world community down the line as a country made up of people who work for the good of the whole and not for the good of just one race, or one nationality, or one class. I had this idea of we needed to build a new organization of basically white working class youth initially to ally with the Panthers, to ally with the Young Lords. These are the groups that are influencing us at the time, and were in our environment so to speak. We held a conference in Fairborn, Ohio in 1968. Hamish Sinclair was there, who had worked in Hazard, Kentucky, [01:26:00] and has been active on the West Coast with 41 �prisoners I think since then. Some other people. Basically the conference was what are we going to do next, JOIN is kind of over, and where are we going to go. We held it in Fairborn, Ohio on a farm, but we went to Yellow Springs, Ohio, where Antioch College was, to see a movie that night. I will confess we were a little smoked up, we’d been drinking, we basically were out of control. We went into the movie theater without paying. This is the rowdier -- we all have parts in our life where it’s sort of cool but it’s got its negative aspects. (laughs) I remember this kind of Andy Frain usher guy, security guy, who we just totally ignored. I remember being drunk up in the [01:27:00] photo booth. I’m not sure this can go on air. (laughs) In the projection booth. And the movie was Wild in the Streets. Wild in the Streets is made by the same people who made the FBI series, who made the anti-Mao movie called The Chairman, who made a movie about Malcolm X that was critical, you know, hostile to Malcolm X, and I think they may have done I Live Three Lives, the FBI thing on TV. But they -- Wild in the Streets the premise was these little white kids who were into rock and roll and stuff were challenging the older people, and they took it over, and everybody who was over thirty was written off. Then the little kids come along and wipe them out. But in the movie there was a song that goes, (singing) “There’s a new song rising up angry in the sky.” And that’s where I got the name. So I had been influenced by the Young Lords, this is crucial, [01:28:00] that they started putting out a paper. Whether that was here or New York, but I think it was the New York people, and a guy that says, “To liberate you got to educate. Educate to liberate.” That came from here. It came from right here in Chicago. So I was 42 �very much influenced by the Young Lords here in Chicago and they were talking about you’ve got to educate to liberate. So Rising Up Angry was my notion of a newspaper that would do that. I didn’t just get it from the Young Lords, I had read Lenin. Lenin talked about the role of a newspaper in a pre-party situation. You’ve got to educate people. That’s why now in this decade, I just turned 70, well seven months ago, I’ve put out a newspaper called The Heartland Journal over the years, and whether it’s called that or something else I’m going to do another online as well as printed and video, a lot of kind of journalism stuff. So that’s just a little advance warning. [01:29:00] We started a newspaper called Rising Up Angry. It was all things cool. What’s going on? The Black Panthers is cool, Young Lords is happening, we like the movie Bullet with Steve McQueen because the cops are chasing him. We had the stuff happening in Berkeley where the People’s Park was going on. I liked hot rod cars, so drag racing, all that stuff. All of that is in the first issue of Rising Up Angry. What we had been doing was since I had left Uptown, and I don’t know what’s going with the Patriots much and all that, but they’re active now because they aren’t active by 1969 when we actually started the paper, they’re done. I was delivering groceries up here in Rogers Park with Jimmy Cartier, and Patrick Sturgis, and [01:30:00] people who had been involved in my life. Patrick goes back to a little bit of JOIN. JJ: What about Diversey and the bookstore? MJ: Diversey and --? JJ: In the -- it was Diversey or Fullerton, you had a bookstore. MJ: That’s in Rising Up Angry. We aren’t there yet. 43 �JJ: Okay. You’re in Rogers Park. MJ: I’m living in Uptown, but I’m delivering groceries up here, and we’re getting to know these young kids on the corner, young greaser kids, who are -- now they’re firemen, now they’re train engineers, conductors. But they were working class youth in the neighborhood. Everybody wore -- the style of clothes then was baggy work pants, t-shirts or Ban-Lon shirts or Italian knits, black leather jackets, your hair was kind of short but growing longer, greased back, A1 stay press pants [01:31:00] or those baggy points, and pointy toe shoes, and black leather jackets. And that was the greaser style. There was a Black style like that too, the Gousters. And I’m sure the Puerto Rican -- everybody wore that style. And everyone’s listening to the same music. There was still Black on white, Latino, all that shit, but everything was starting -- the groundwork was being laid for the Rainbow Coalition. What I used to do is I’d take young kids and we had other contacts too. I remember meeting some people from the South Side, Billy Bonner and other people who went to Central [Y?] High school. A guy named John Starr, who still eats at the Heartland, he’s an actor and a teacher. He’s in his eighties. I think he’s in his eighties now. He was teaching at Central Y and we went to talk to them. I would go talk to students, people on the corners, we said, “Look, Black and white, Latinos, are all fighting each other, we’ve got to get along. The man is sticking to it to us, all of us.” [01:32:00] You know, the classic rap. The working class is oppressed, we have to overcome our false consciousness, we have to work together in our interests, and there’s a lot of singularities between us. You’ve got to go beyond the color of the skin. 44 �JJ: And the reaction is what? MJ: There’s some people say, “Oh, fuck the niggers.” Or, you know, “Spics this.” Some people go, “Yeah, I hear ya, man, right on!” So we would take these young kids to other events. If you had a demonstration or a march going on, this was before we became officially an organization, we would lay the groundwork for the paper. We went to the Panther office. We were kind of just hipping people to the cross-racial, cross-cultural fertilization that makes this country wonderful and probably makes the world wonderful. On July 28, 1969 we came out with the first issue of [01:33:00] Rising Up Angry, which I described a moment ago. That was really the way we reached out to a lot of people. We would jump out of the car, we’d drive around neighborhoods, three or four of us, and we’d pull up to Kosciuszko Park, we’d go down to the Gas for Less at Armitage -- at Sedgwick and Lincoln over there. That’s where the Mohawks, the Hudson’s, the North Parks come, commonly known as the [CORE?], who used to go to the same school with guys who became parts of the Young Lords. JJ: We used to fight them (inaudible). MJ: You used to fight when you were kids. JJ: With a gang, yeah. MJ: Yeah. And we would hang out with them. My sister in law Kimmy was going out with those guys. We’d drink a little ripple, we’d smoke a little smoke, we’d talk about revolution. When the Weathermen did their Wild in the Streets action, what was it called? Days of Rage. We took a bunch of CORE guys to that. But it wasn’t just [01:34:00] here, it was South Side, it was everywhere. We would go 45 �places. We would pass out the paper or we’d sell the paper. I spent hundreds of hours, maybe more. I would be at the corner of Lincoln and Belmont. I would be at Milwaukee near Kedzie and Diversey and I would be on the corner say, “Okay, it’s time to take a change from the brain. It’s time to get back in the peoples’ camp. It’s time we move it from the lower level to the higher, from the shallower to the deeper, from the one-sided to the many, from the abstract to the concrete. All power to the people, brothers and sisters. All power to the people. Rising up angry. Get your Rising Up Angry. Twenty-five cents, Rising Up Angry, you need this information.” So I would be -- you know, that’s what I did. I was the king of selling the papers on the corner. And we had quotas. Some people did work in the legal program. They didn’t have to sell as many papers. I was the head of outreach. I would be the guy who would -- [01:35:00] we would organize meetings at the old Wobbly Hall or other places where we would recruit as many kids as we could from around the city, come and watch us -- watch the Battle of Algiers, which is a great movie about the Algerian revolution, and secret cells, and militaristic stuff. We would show them that movie. There was an operation, outfit, called Newsreel who were filmmakers out of New York and San Francisco and Chicago and they would make short movies about all kinds of issues. Jimi Hendrix, it starts out come to San Francisco with flowers in your hair, and the next thing you know there’s riot scenes fighting the police. And were a little left wing adventurous, a little militaristic. All of us, the Young Lords, the Black Panthers, Rising Up Angry, everyone was buying guns in those days. You got your gun card. Clark Kissinger, who he was [01:36:00] a moderate kind of SDS 46 �guy who later is now in the RCP, Revolutionary Communist Party, and pushing Mao to this day. He opened a gun store. I remember going to Bell’s Gun Shop on Manheim Road in Franklin Park and the Lords would be there, the Panthers would be there, the cops would be there, Rising Up Angry would be there. It was like hairy times. We all had High Standard Riot pumps, just like Huey Newton in the photo with Bobby Seale. We had Browning 9mm. I was so grateful when my guns were stolen by some Native American guys. I’ve got to say, I didn’t ever like guns a lot. I’ve been trained in the use of guns at my Y camp and people who were shooting skeet down in this gravel pit, but I just -- the guns was not my favorite thing. But I did have some guns. Some guys I know [01:37:00] they stole my guns and they were going to Wounded Knee, maybe they went to Wisconsin, I have no idea where they are, I hope it never comes back on me. (laughs) JJ: Would you say the emotion at that time was? MJ: Arms struggle. I had grown up Adlai Stevenson kind of Democratic Party, Kennedy. I did vote for Johnson. Then we were down on politics later. Later on it was okay to vote for McGovern. I ran the Peggy Terry campaign for Vice President with Eldritch Cleaver in 1968 with the Peace and Freedom Party. We didn’t even talk about that part of the history. We had gotten more and more disillusioned, we had gotten more left wing adventurous, infantile radicalism, I’m not sure what the Lenin term is for that. But we thought we were actually going to take over the country and it was going to be an armed struggle. [01:38:00] I got to say that we were not the only ones that thought that because the year after 47 �the Bears won the Super Bowl, I think it was 1995, I went with my friend Dave Meggyesy, who had played for the Cardinals and was an organizer for the Player’s Union, and is a very close friend to this day. I was in San Francisco; we went to see the Bears. They lost to the 49ers. We ended up at a bar that night. This was 1995. At the bar, while the rest of us are sneaking around doing illicit activities, (laughs) there’s a guy named -- he’s an FBI agent and I’m blocking his name. It will come back to me. I’m so sorry I’m blocking his name. But he was the FBI agent on the Delorean case where the guy that made those Delorean cars was busted on cocaine. This guy has an Irish name. He also was after the Weathermen. So here [01:39:00] we are, I’m with a bunch pro-football -- former pro-football players. And so somehow, we’re all chumming it up with this FBI guy who says to me, he says, “We thought you were going to win. We thought it was coming down.” I went like -- I said, “Well, you know, I guess on a scale of however you measure it, it was perceived as a major movement. We were for real. We engendered these reactions from the forces that be in the government to try and wipe us out.” Which in many ways they did. If you think about COINTEL Program and the Panthers and the murder of all kinds of people by the government and the FBI, including our beloved Fred Hampton in this town in, and Mark Clark, it just -- the movement that you and I, all of us here, [01:40:00] were involved with was serious, it was real, it had ramifications both positively and negatively. JJ: When Reverend Bruce Johnson -- because it was like thirty days before Fred Hampton. Were you around at that time? When Bruce Johnson -- 48 �MJ: When Bruce Johnson was killed? JJ: Yeah. MJ: I remember him getting killed. I remember the march, I think, on Armitage Avenue. We were involved in -- Rising Up Angry was involved, like the Panthers, in free health clinics. I think the Young Lords had one for a while; the Panthers had them, Doc Satchel was the Minister of Health. He had been wounded in the raid on the Hampton apartment. I think probably the most -- the Patriots and the Uptown people had an Uptown people’s health clinic too. But I think the most successful clinic to be honest was the Fritzi Engelstein Free People’s Health Center which I think Slim had been -- Slim Coleman had been involved with. Then the Rising Up Angry people [01:41:00] basically ended up taking it over, running it, and for years we had this Free People’s Health Center at the corner of Wilton and Diversey at the Church of the Holy Covenant. The reverend was Jim something. JJ: Was it Jim Reed? MJ: Jim Reed is the minister there. I remember him. The other minister, Bruce Johnson, over -- that was involved at your church where you had your offices on Armitage. I don’t remember a lot of stuff about that, to be honest with you. But he was assassinated, he was killed. JJ: Like Manuel Ramos, were you involved -- MJ: I remember the march on Manuel Ramos. JJ: What do you remember about that? MJ: I don’t remember much other than he was a figure in your literature. Then we put 49 �him in Rising Up Angry and there were marches. He was an activist with you guys, he had come out of the Young Lords gang, became part of the Young Lords organization. I don’t know much other than that. I’ve got to say that I held you [01:42:00] in high esteem and probably -- I probably wasn’t aware of my own potential early on, but when I met the Fred Hamptons of the world and the ChaCha Jimenez’s of the world, they were guys I looked up to. I think everyone who looks at this kind of thing, you can look to leaders for guidance, advice, and inspiration, but leaders are leaders. A lot of people who follow leaders have a lot of real serious potential themselves. You want to say okay, I’m learning from these guys, I look to them as a leader, I too can be a leader. Back to where I started on that, I was a little shy talking to you. I don’t think it was until I saw you of altered consciousness one time that I realized you were a human guy. JJ: You’re talking about altered -- MJ: You were messed up. (laughs) In the night on Montrose one night. “All right, Cha-Cha!” (laughs) It was like -- we all go [01:43:00] through our periods. Some people probably have seen me out in the world -- well, I’ve been married for a good amount of time now, which probably saved my life in many ways. All of us guys are lucky to hook up with some really fine wives. (laughter) I remember I spent a lot of nights out running around. Which was part of the deal though. Where did Bobby Lee first start talking to people when he was a Panther organizer? I’d see him in Oxford Pub. He was the guy that got sent to work with the white people. We’d be out there drinking and later on there was a period of time when people were snorting and weed and weed from then until today even. 50 �I would be an advocate of not only medical marijuana but recreational use. I think that a lot of drugs can be pretty harmful. But also I think there is a positive side to all of that. I will refer people to the Andrew Wild book The Natural Mind. In that he talks about the -- every culture on the planet uses some [01:44:00] chemical substance to alter consciousness except the Eskimos, because they didn’t have it. They didn’t have fermented this or fermented that or they didn’t have some kind of plant growing. Everybody has used it. In the book he talked about it can help you in many ways. But then he talks about going beyond it. You don’t really need it. You can reach consciousness and awareness at higher levels without the aid of some kind of substance that alters your consciousness. I’m not an anti-drug guy. I tend to be kind of pro the use of recreational drugs. I think it’s better than people getting drunk. But that’s an issue that’s going on today. Back then it was, back now. JJ: And you were organizing greasers who were on the corners. MJ: They were on the corners. They were just -- they were drinkers but then they started [01:45:00] to be smokers. Because what happened was the older brothers started coming back from Vietnam. The older brothers had been in Vietnam and they had gotten along with Black guys and Latino guys. They’d all smoked weed over there. You had all of the sudden the greasers in the neighborhood are growing their hair long and they’re smoking weed. And like I said earlier, they’re listening to the music. Then you’ve got Rising Up Angry, you’ve got the Young Lords, you’ve got the Black Panther Party, you’ve got the American Indian Movement, you’ve got I Wor Kuen, which was an Asian group 51 �for a while. They were pretty serious Maoist types and pretty critical of anyone -I remember I wrote a -JJ: Were they more like in New York? MJ: They were in New York and the West Coast, but they were here in Chinatown too. Yeah. Because I remember I was invited to speak at something, I had written a piece that had been put out in a benefit -- I brought [01:46:00] a band called XIT (Crossing of Indian Tribes) to Chicago to do some shows for Rising Up Angry to raise money. There is footage of all of that, there’s a movie of them. In the program I wrote a thing about the American Indian Movement. And the line is, “To the place where we share one heart.” I always kind of mixed a lot of the little New Age stuff, with Marxist politics, with American populism, whatever I read or am looking at I’m influenced by. So I had this phrase, “Where we work together --” blah, blah, blah, “Where we join together to go to that place where we share one heart.” And I was asked to talk at the I Wor Kuen thing and I basically gave this talk where I used that line and they attacked me. It’s not being hardassed Marxist enough. [01:47:00] So I wasn’t fond on that organization. And then they disappeared. But they were around here for about that much time. I don’t include them in my discussions or talks about the Rainbow Coalition. I do include the Young Lords, and the Panthers, and the Patriots were the original. The Patriots were so short-lived and it kind of merged with the Rising Up Angry. I do mention the American Indian Movement was around too. There was also in the Mexican community there were the Brown Berets. JJ: Because they spread to other cities too. 52 �MJ: The Brown Berets, they were short-lived here. The leader became a kind of conversative -- JJ: The Young Lords were learning from that. We were learning from the Brown Berets. MJ: You had Brown Berets here? JJ: They came before us but you know, we went to the West Coast. MJ: I remember you were with Corky Gonzales. When you and I were at Rainbow Coalition of Elders meeting, I remember we were at the same camp, and Corky Gonzales, who had been an influence. JJ: And the children of Corky Gonzales came to visit us. MJ: I got photos of that. [01:48:00] I’ve got a lot of photos so show you guys. JJ: Okay, so the impact of the Rainbow Coalition, what do you think? MJ: The Rainbow Coalition was just the real deal. It was what we were about. Enjoying -- there had been white people working in the welfare union, working with the Kenwood Oakland Community Organization, which goes till this day. So there were Black people, so you had Blacks and whites. Then once Rising Up Angry comes along, Rising Up Angry is not only influenced by the Panthers and the Young Lords, but we go to the demonstrations, and people start talking about each other. I remember the Panthers being -- I was introduced at a Panther event where someone was referring to having seen this name written on the wall, Rising Up Angry, who are they, what are they? Well it was kids first out of Lincoln Park, Logan Square, because we were in both places in Uptown [01:49:00] coming out of Uptown. We began an organization and we had some 53 �skills at getting press, and we did have a newspaper that put out 20,000 copies of the paper every three weeks. We would sell it all over town. In that we pushed -- we didn’t use the term Rainbow Coalition a lot. I think the Uptown -the Patriot guys did and they made those buttons early on. There’s these handpainted buttons of red, brown, black, yellow, and white, which were kind of the Rainbow Coalition. I don’t remember talking about the Rainbow Coalition until years later when you’re working on the kind of the history of the Young Lords and the Black Panthers, and Ray Santisteban started coming and making his interviews for his movies. Since then it’s become the way we describe those [01:50:00] times. You correct me if I’m wrong, but other than maybe Bobby Lee using the term, I don’t even know if in the movie it’s Rainbow Coalition. JJ: Bobby Lee was working with the Patriots and then when we started working with the Panthers Fred asked us to join the Rainbow Coalition, so that’s how the original group -- then it spread to other cities. MJ: Then Fred’s dead, then the Patriots are gone. JJ: Yeah, but then spread to other cities for a while. It just said we were supporting each other. MJ: Yeah, and so we did that. The way the history is described now, and I did an article which hopefully becomes the basis of a book by the same name, it’s Rising Up Angry and Chicago’s Early Rainbow Coalition. I don’t talk a lot about it, but I do talk about the influence of the Lords, the Panthers, and then Rising Up Angry. The way I came up with that article to become a book was because you, Cha-Cha Jiminez, [01:51:00] were doing something at DePaul where you were 54 �going to have -- they were going to talk about the Black Panthers and the Young Lords, leaving us guys out. So all of the sudden, someone knew I had photographs. Because the photographs they were using in the exhibit were of the Panthers in New York or on Oakland. JJ: We told them. MJ: Okay, good. And the stuff on the Young Lords was stuff in New York, of the Young Lords Party in New York. I remember they all came up here from -what’s that guy’s name? JJ: Masud, Felix Masud. MJ: Yeah, Felix. How do you say his name? JJ: Felix Masud Piloto. MJ: And then Maria? JJ: Maria Isabel Ochoa. MJ: Yeah, and one other woman? JJ: Jackie Lazú. MJ: No, it wasn’t her. JJ: Christina -- MJ: Christina. JJ: -- Rodrigeuz. MJ: Okay, so all of these people, Christina, and Maria, and Felix, [01:52:00] they came up to the Heartland Café and I took them in the back into the Michael James archive section/studio/prairie dancer gallery, whatever we’re going to call it. I did have from the Rising Up Angry files not a lot of pictures I shot myself, 55 �although I’ve shot plenty of pictures, but also during that period I’ve got to confess, while I shot some photos early on in Angry, I was considered -- I’m the organizer, I’m doing stuff and other people take the pictures. But I have the archives and I still have the archives. That’s why the people making the Black Panther movie, who also did the Freedom Rider movie, just came and talked to me because people want to look at the pictures. Lo and behold, you came up -or they came up and they wanted to do this show on the Panthers and the Lords. I showed them the stuff, so it became, okay, [01:53:00] it’s going to be the Black Panthers and the Young Lords and Rising Up Angry. And as you know we had an exhibit at DePaul a few years back of photos -- of not only the Panthers from New York and the Young Lords from New York, but Panthers and Lords from Chicago, and some Rising Up Angry and some Young Patriots. It’s still a great exhibit. There’s this book out, as I said earlier, Hillbilly Nationalists, Urban Race Rebels, and Black Power, and certainly when I get my Rising up Angry book out, I’ve got all these photos, they’re all framed, they’re ready to go, it’s an exhibit, it can go anywhere anytime. It’s getting hot. JJ: Any final thoughts? Any final thoughts? MJ: Let’s think. Yeah, let’s try to stab at some final thoughts. In 1975 things came to a transition. The War in Vietnam [01:54:00] was coming to an end, Rising Up Angry closes, there’s a debate in Rising Up Angry whether we’re going to end the organization. I voted to have a new organization called the Rising of Us All. I still think that’s a good title. I was outvoted. We sold the building on Belmont at Racine, which is where we had Right On Books. Right On Books was a little 56 �bookstore. We actually had -- it was two floors, we had big meetings there, we showed films there, put out the newspaper there, we owned the building. Actually the reception area when you walk in had a steel plate about this thick because we were concerned with -- it was a militaristic time on a lot of fronts. So the building gets sold and I’m -- the vote doesn’t go with us having a new organization [01:55:00] so I started a thing called Freedom Road Delivery. Freedom Road Delivery was a number of things. It was going to be a musical production thing and during the Rising Up Angry time we had done the People’s Dances. That was really a popular thing where you’d have all these little contacts from these little gangs and peer groups on corners, some Latinos from Lawndale down that way and 18th Street, some Black people, we’d have bands, and we’d get together, and we’d dance our asses off, get along. We’d serve food, we’d have poetry, and folk music in another room. We did these at the Midland Hotel. They were pretty far out. After Rising Up Angry closed though, those People’s Dances didn’t happen as much because they didn’t have the base of organizers that were pulling all of these people together. I tried to put on some [01:56:00] concerts and we started to -- what are we going to do now? I was interested in sports, I was interested in music, I was interested in politics. We started what we called Freedom Road Delivery to put on events and to distribute magazines and newspapers. I was also teaching at Columbia College. I was teaching a course called Organizing for Social Change. In the course of that course I started talking about building the mini progressive economy. I had been reading Mao on the base areas in China, I’d been reading about the Nation 57 �of Islam with businesses, I had been reading about the role of small businesses and credit unions in the independent struggle in Kenya, and I just had this idea that we would -- we had to start businesses that would not only provide people with work, but would serve the community [01:57:00] and would give the workers time to go do political work. At the heart of this was a restaurant. So I’m teaching this class, I said, “We’re going to have a restaurant, we’re going to have a daycare center, we’re going to have bicycle repair co-op, automobile repair coop, we’re going to have art galleries, we’re going to have free people’s health clinics, anything the people needed we were going to do. Someone offered to give me money, which they did not do, to open a restaurant. It was either going to be called -- I was doing a lot of running, I was eating healthy food, I was influenced by Frances Moore Lappé, Diet for a Small Planet, how you cannot meet the world’s protein needs on a meat-based diet. You had to do like a Chinese restaurant, a lot of vegetables, and rice, and a little bit of meat. And I started talking about the restaurant. She said she’d offer some -- she offered us money to do it, didn’t give it to us, but that got us going. In August, on August 11 in 1976 Katie Hogan and Stormy Brown, [01:58:00] who was my ex-wife already, along with her mother Jean, started working on the place, and we opened August 11th. We started working on it May 1st. It was the first time we didn’t do any May Day stuff. JJ: You’re talking about the Heartland Café. MJ: We opened the Heartland Café. It was either going to be Sweet Home Chicago or Heartland Café, so it became Sweet Home Chicago’s Heartland Café. We 58 �opened August 11. We had 43 customers. JJ: In Rogers Park. MJ: In Rogers Park. We’ve been here since then. We’re just about to complete our thirty-sixth year on August 11 and I’m very happy to say that Katie Hogan and I, who have been there carrying on for many years, we have taken in a business partner named Tom Rosenfeld. He has an organic farm in Michigan, sells cider under the name of Earth First Cider. He clearly made some dough somewhere else. I think he will keep the integrity of the Heartland, the tradition, and obviously there will be some little bumps in the road, but [01:59:00] Katie and I are still part owners, and we are still working there for another year, and we’re about to engage on our reupping our -- not only keeping our radio show going, but selling the Heartland Journal, finishing some books, holding some events. I kind of envision a big space with art on the walls and you coming to talk, you showing some film, speakers. JJ: Let’s hear the different components of it, because you had the radio show. MJ: Yeah, we have the radio show, I have books in the works, we have certainly a lot of contacts with people who need to share what they’ve got going. JJ: And this came from the bookstore also, it’s kind of like an extension. MJ: Yeah. JJ: Of that time. MJ: Our bookstore in Rising Up Angry, we had a bookstore, general store, at Heartland, and what I do next will be more like education, art, advocating, social justice, etcetera. [02:00:00] I don’t know what this will be called and when it will 59 �happen. JJ: It also kind of comes from the base area of Mao, so I mean -- MJ: Everything the people need. JJ: Everything what? MJ: Everything the people need. Kind of where I was always at. I said if the people want -- the people are -- I believe in something I would called comprehensive consciousness. A lot of people are focused on one thing or another. To me -some people use the term renaissance person, renaissance man, where you’ve got a lot of interests and you do a lot of different things. I think that that’s a -- it’s okay if you’re focused on one or two things in your life, it’s okay if you try and handle a lot of stuff. But I think that for people who are consciously political organizers and activists, you want to not exclude anything out there or any group of people, and you want to include lots of things that will help make a better world, make a better society, make a more comprehensive -- so I use this term [02:01:00] comprehensive consciousness to include not only social justice issues, but art, but music, the food we eat, everything. You know, everything has a place in this -- as Huey Newton used to call it the many layered onion. It had lots of layers. We’re the many something or other something or other. We’re working on the rap on it. I want to help to not only foster interest and learning from the things that you and I, we’ve all experienced and done, but to do it in a way that reinforces the new activism, the new forces of social justice. I used a slogan on our radio show that says, “Do good in the world because the world needs all the good that you do.” “Do good in the world because the world needs 60 �all the good that you do.” And I believe that. I think that we want to encourage people to do good in the world [02:02:00] and I think we want to continue to try and take on people who we consider our adversaries and win them over to make them see the ills of what they’re about or to just clearly know that they’re on the other side. As well as reinforce people who are expanding their own awareness and their own consciousness, they’re just beginning to grasp what the world is all about, what’s already happened, what’s about to happen, what could happen. I like to use the thing we’ve got to know where we’re coming from. We’ve got to really know where we’re at in order to have a really clear vision about where we’re going to go. JJ: In 1975 I ran for alderman in the 46th Ward. MJ: I would have voted for you but I wasn’t voting at that time and I wasn’t living in that ward. JJ: Right, so you also had been working with the alderman in this area. MJ: Joe Moore. David Orr. JJ: (inaudible) the committee for a while? MJ: No, I’m not the committeeman. I’m actually the President of the Democratic Party Organization [02:03:00] in the 49th Ward. It’s elected by the membership but it’s not elected by the populus as a whole. In Chicago you have 50 wards, every ward as an alderman, and every ward has a representative both to the Democratic Party and the Republican Party, which doesn’t really matter in this town. Or the Green Party. Any party that’s running. In this ward we have Joe Moore is our long-time alderman and David Orr is the board committeeman who 61 �is like the rep from the party to the central committee of the Democratic Party. JJ: He’s a progressive -- MJ: He’s kind of progressive, yeah, he’s progressive. Joe Moore’s been one of the most progressive. I think Joe’s having to figure out how he deals with this mayor, Mayor Rahm Emmanuel, who does some really neat things, and does some stuff that makes us crazy. I’ve got to say that when he showed up at the Heartland for an event that was going on, [02:04:00] he talked to a number of students, and Emanuel lauded the Heartland as this historic institution, it’s been so important to the community. He then turns to me at the end and he says, “How was that?” I gave him a five and then I jumped up and hugged him. Where is security? But I also -- there’s many things he’s doing that I do not like. So it’s a mixed bag. But I don’t think it’s an easy job. And back then we would say that’s good, don’t vote, we’re against this, we’re against that, we’re for some altruistic utopian vision. I think you have to be realistic in real life. You’ve got to work with what you’ve got, you’ve got to defend what you have. Even in left theory, whether it’s Mao, whether it’s Lenin, anyone, at times you’ve got to be in the united front where you’re going into the lowest common denominator of inclusiveness [02:05:00] of people who are on your side in order to keep out some more reactionary forces. If you are solidified and you have power -- let’s say Obama was not under such attack from the forces on the right with so much money, then maybe we could be -- I would be more critical of Obama, and I would be pushing him to left more. But right now you’re defending what we got, holding on, so that we have a sea that’s not too polluted to swim in during the next four years after he’s re-elected. 62 �That’s kind of the way I think about it. So I don’t mind being associated with the Democratic Party. I make jokes, say I am the President of the 49th Ward Democratic Party Organization, which was a move to my right. (laughs) And I’ve also -- I’ve got to say I’m good at mixing things, influences together. [02:06:00] I’m not necessarily an original thinker, although I’ve put together stuff that are unique from parts of things and given them my own twist. If I hang around with you, I’m going to take on some of your stuff and filter it and utilize it. Same thing with you. And I think that’s just way it is. JJ: Kind of you as Paul -- MJ: You as Paul Wozniak who came up out of Rising Up Angry and is the videographer, along with his lovely wife, Mary Wozniak. Not the same Mary Wozniak from the old Rising Up Angry but Mary Wozniak who’s married to Paul now. They worked closely with me on the Life in the Heartland Show. They’re in on all the plans of where we’re going next and how that’s going to be. We’ll include you too, Cha-Cha. JJ: Any final thoughts? MJ: I think I’ve said enough. (laughter) END OF VIDEO FILE 63 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/895f7cee838f871865322b48dee6a11e.mp4 1746257879ebee38fc494a01870e03f2 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Michael Gaylord James vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_James_Michael Title A name given to the resource Michael Gaylord James video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource James, Michael Description An account of the resource A resident of Chicago’s Roger’s Park neighborhood, Mike James was the first leader of Rising Up Angry, a white, working-class group formed in the late 1960s and early 1970s that sought to organize residents of Lakeview/Uptown and offer a range of free or low cost services to the community including a free legal clinic, free health service, a women’s discussion group, occasional free pet-care clinic, and a variety of community events. The group also published a newspaper, the only underground newspaper aimed specifically at white, blue-collar greaser youth in Chicago at that time. The paper presented a combination of international news with news from local Chicago neighborhoods. Rising Up Angry members were also known for their distinctive way of dressing – dark banlon shirts, leather jackets, baggy pants, and pointed toe shoes. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-04 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/911d0ad556cf6140e1bf015c44b0d375.pdf 6e05c579dfb1767be70f4aee018b6c16 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Erica Huggins Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/13/2013 Runtime: 01:24:45 Biography and Description Oral history of Erica Huggins, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on March 13, 2013 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript JOSE JIMINEZ: Okay, Ericka, if you could give me your name and where you were born and that? ERICKA HUGGINS: I’m Ericka Huggins. I was born Ericka Cozette Jenkins. I was born in Washington D.C. on January 5, 1948. JJ: (inaudible) Now it’s taping. It wasn’t taping. Okay, so go ahead. EH: I have three children. My oldest is my daughter, who is also the daughter of John Huggins, who was assassinated on January 17, 1969 by the FBI COINTELPRO. My older son is also the son of James Mott, one of the Lumpen, the Black Panther Party’s revolutionary singing group. And my younger son is too young to have been [00:01:00] anywhere near anybody connected with the Black Panther Party, he’s twenty-five, and he is a poet and a teacher, and very much a revolutionary from his heart outward. So, I really dedicate this interview to them. JJ: Thank you, that’s good. Now you mentioned John Huggins. Can you describe -I know he was in Los Angeles; can you describe who he is? EH: Well John Huggins was born in New Haven, Connecticut and we met at -- John and I met at Lincoln University in Pennsylvania, about an hour outside of Philly. He had left the Navy and was coming back to college and I was in college [00:02:00] thinking about why I was there. Long story short, we both read about the Black Panther Party for Self Defense, that was its original name, and we decided to leave that college campus and drive across country to become a part of the Huey Newton Defense Committee and to join the Black Panther Party. 1 �And so we did. So at the end of 1968 -- no, at the end of 1967 we joined the Party, and we spent a year working with the Los Angeles chapter of the party. We visited the Oakland headquarters a few times. Our daughter was born on December 27 [00:03:00] and she was three weeks old when he was killed. He was a very compassionate man. And I think I want to say that the Black Panther Party drew lots of compassionate and kind people to it. Of course, though, we were median age nineteen or twenty, so there was a way in which we knew exactly what we were doing, and there was a way in which we didn’t know the consequences of what we were doing. We were just brave and ignorant at the same time. But John taught me a lot about serving people because his courage preceded him wherever he went. He wasn’t just courageous when it came to [00:04:00] standing up to and telling truth to power, he was also courageous in his relationships with people, and cared about people in a really deep way. So that’s who he was. He came from a family of people who worked at Yale. They were not faculty or professors, but they worked at Yale, and they were a part of a long-standing New Haven Black community. JJ: Okay, now, you say he was strong with people and courageous, but what was the conversation? Why all of the sudden you decided to go to the Black Panther Party? EH: Yes. I read Ramparts magazine and saw the picture of Huey Newton strapped to a hospital gurney with a bullet wound in his belly. And I decided that I was going to leave Lincoln University and join the Black Panther Party. And I asked John if he was coming, we were friends, and he said, “Yes.” You’re going to pause it? I 2 �think this is -- (break in recording) So my parents were similar in a way to John Huggins parents, and completely different. By that I mean that my mother was raised on a farm one of the two oldest of eleven children. They were very poor. And she finished [00:06:00] part of high school before she left the farm to come to Washington D.C. to kind of make it. She wanted a different life for herself. She met my father as she was continuing high school to get a GED -- she met my father who was just finished the eighth grade. He refused to complete high school. And she says that she fell in love with him because he was so handsome and she knew that they would make beautiful children. I was like, “Mama, that’s not a good reason to be with anybody,” because my father -- I’ll tell you in a minute more about my father. [00:07:00] My father was born and raised in Washington D.C. in a very -- not wealthy or prominent Black family, but a wellknown Black family in Washington D.C. in Northwest, near Howard University. But all of them worked government jobs. And I was telling you earlier that the Huggins’s worked at Yale all of their career, but it wasn’t at a faculty level or in education, it was serving the faculty and serving the students, both in the Yale Men’s Club, Mr. Huggins worked there, and Mrs. Huggins in the Yale library. The similarity between both our [00:08:00] parents is that both of our parents were very interested in their children having education. And the other similarity is that both sets of parents had very rebellious children. So John and I were drawn to each other because we had a similar outlook on the world. We both really cared about people and we knew that there was something wrong, there were inequities, there was an imbalance. Actually, John left the Navy before his time 3 �was up, and one of the things that was prompting him to leave is that while he was on the ship, the four little girls who were killed in the church in Birmingham, and he was in the Philippines at the time, and felt, “What the hell am I doing here? [00:09:00] I should be at home; there’s a war at home.” So by the time we met at Lincoln University, we were both thinking about freedom for Black people and other people of color in a very strong way. And I think that that’s important to know about John and I because in both instances we could see the history of Black people in the United States was the most horrific and long-standing, that so many groups of people were suffering abuse at the hands of the United States government. So, my parents encouraged me to look out for my people. My mother told me that almost every day. And as a result of that, I went to the March on Washington when I was fifteen [00:10:00] years old. By myself. And it transformed my young life. It was there at the March on Washington that I decided to serve people for the rest of my life. JJ: What did you see? EH: What I saw was thousands and thousands of Black people. I’d never seen that except when people gathered for a concert or a church conference or because something had happened. This was the best gathering of people I’d ever witness and the most diverse. People of all classes, all ages. I would say every kind of person gathered that day. And there were Latinos and Latinas there, but not very many. [00:11:00] This was 1963. There were White students there. I assumed them to be students because they were older than me but not functioning in any leadership capacity in the movement that I could tell. They 4 �seemed to be college students who came together to be there. And there were older White movement people. But it was very Black and White. I remember that distinctly because when I look back on it, where I live in California it’s not Black and White at all. Nothing is Black and White in our world actually. But it was that way then. And I think it needed to be because of the history of enslaved Africans in this country. [00:12:00] So I’m standing there with my fifteen-year-old self, by myself, looking out at the sea of people, and I found this mound of dirt kind of like the mound of dirt out there in the construction area, out of our beautiful window. And I stood on the top of that mound of dirt so that I could see all the people gathered. And I could also see their transportation. People came in pick-up trucks that looked like my grandfather’s truck that he took tobacco to sell. They came in church buses. They came in vans. They came in rickety station wagons and hoopty cars. They came on foot because many people marched to get there from parts of the metropolitan area of D.C. [00:13:00] There were people on bicycles. There were people on motorcycles, groups of people on motorcycles. There were just all kinds of people. And then there were the speakers. JJ: How did you find out about it? EH: It was the talk of the city. I don’t remember watching the news, I don’t remember hearing it on the radio, but I know that it was the talk of the city, and my mother was talking about it. And I don’t remember friends at school talking about it. I was very singular in that way. My peers did not seem interested. I’ve reflected a lot on why I went by myself that day. I’m glad I did because I was meant to 5 �experience this inner commitment that I experienced that day. [00:14:00] My mother talked -- when I asked her about the March on Washington and what it was for, after she explained that it was happening, she told me that Black people were gathering together to put -- to make everyone aware that, as she called us, Negros couldn’t be treated in the awful way that they’d been treated for hundreds of years, and that it had to stop. No more Jim Crow. And I knew what she meant. Although I wasn’t learning much about history in school, I learned a lot from my mother. Not details, not dates, not names, but the flow of history. Because she grew up in a very violently segregated South with the Ku Klux Klan absolutely active. So she was my [00:15:00] go-to about the Negro people. JJ: What do you mean, she saw them, the Ku Klux Klan? EH: Oh yeah. They burned crosses on peoples’ lawns, they shot up peoples’ houses, they were crazy. You know, my mother’s 94 and there are times -- there have been times in her life when she was in her 80s. She has no short-term memory anymore, so she’s absolutely happy, doesn’t remember the horrible things, but she was afraid to look a White person in the eye because of her training. She was so proud that I could hang out with everybody and that I wasn’t afraid of anyone. She taught me not to be afraid and to stand up. But I didn’t realize until I talked to her later in [00:16:00] my life that her let’s say socialization, her social training was such that you whispered around White people. You didn’t have to ask their permission anymore, but there was a subtle way in which she always did. But she really wanted life different for her children and her grandchildren, and I think that life is different. So when I had questions, and I always had lots of 6 �them, “Why did the people on Capitol Hill live with such wealth, and why did the people in South East live in such conditions of poverty? Why are there housing projects? Why is it that people have to sleep in their cars? Why is that the White House is so big and beautiful?” I remember asking her one day, “Can’t some of the people from the housing projects [00:17:00] live in the White House? They’ve got lots of space.” But I didn’t understand how it all worked, and she helped me to understand that no, Ericka, Negros can’t live in the White House. And so, of course, when Barack Obama became president, she was absolutely convinced that 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue would never be the same again. There was nothing in her history or in her present experience that would lead her to believe that an African American man could become President of the United States. She did her best with her limited knowledge to let me know that there was a way that I could help to change things. She said, “You’re smart. You ask a lot of questions. You keep [00:18:00] asking those questions, maybe we’ll get some answers.” And so when I went to her to say, “Okay, I’m going to the March on Washington.” And she said, “No, you’re not.” I said, “Yes, I am. I’m getting right on the bus. I’m going to go. It’s just two buses away.” She said, “No, something could happen to you.” I said, “Something could happen to me anywhere.” I said, “You’re the one who told me I should help the Negro people.” Maybe she said colored people. (laughs) I can’t remember. Both of those terms were annoying to me. She said, “Yes, I asked you help them, but I didn’t ask you to put yourself out there in front. Not you. Not my daughter. Go ask your father.” And I told him I was going, I didn’t ask him, and that was really different 7 �because I had to always ask my father’s [00:19:00] permission for any and everything. I just told him I was going. I had such conviction about it. I know now why I did. It was where I was meant to be on that day in that time in my life. And so against my parents’ wishes -- my father didn’t want me to go either -- I went. I got on the bus, I asked if I could take my brother and sister, who were younger than me, and they said no, and I said, “I’ll be back. I’ll be fine. I know the bus route.” And what I didn’t say is how many police were out there that day. And because of where I grew up, I was used to the police, sort of like, it was occupied territory where I lived in Southeast Washington. So I was used to seeing the police around, but this was a new way of seeing them. I knew that they were there not to protect the people who were gathered, but in case [00:20:00] the people who had gathered were going to do something to harm property, D.C., I don’t know, I couldn’t figure it out. I didn’t have any systemic understanding at that time, although I had some ideas. So I listened to all of the speeches, and there were many of them, and I can’t really remember the speeches. But there is one thing that I do remember and it kind of locked -- it gelled for me the sense that I must serve people. Two of my favorite people, because they were always on TV, and I also knew from my mother that they always spoke up on behalf of Black people and people of color in general, Harry Belafonte, and Lena Horne were there, and they both spoke. I don’t remember except that they were -- [00:21:00] I just loved them. I loved seeing them there. I loved seeing “stars,” as my mother called them, standing up for Black people. That just did something for me. More than all of the movement leaders, these 8 �two stood out to me. And the most poignant moment for me was Lena Horne said some words, I don’t remember what they were, but then she sung the word, “Freedom.” She just sung it. And the word took so long to exit her being and into the air and people became really quiet as it landed on their ears, and of course it entered my heart. Just that word: “Freedom.” And it was right at that moment of the word ringing out like that, that I said, “This is it. This is [00:22:00] what I have to do. I have to fight for freedom.” And little did I know what form it would take and what challenges I would face. JJ: What about your dad? EH: Oh yeah, I said I was going to tell you more. So my father was a Washingtonian. Very handsome, just like my mother said. Very brilliant. But he’d given up on life after World War -- during World War II when he was in the Army he started to drink and came back from the war an alcoholic. He was an abusive alcoholic. So when I say that I had to ask his permission for everything, I really meant it, because I never knew which way was up. [00:23:00] He wasn’t the kind of alcoholic who would drink and then fall asleep. He beat me, he beat my mother, we broke up fights. My sister, my brother, and I broke up fights between the two of them. That’s how it was. We didn’t think it was normal for families to live like that, but we didn’t feel like we had any ability to change it. And that was another thing that prompted me -- there were two prompts that come out of living with my father. One was I don’t want to be like my father. I don’t want to be an alcoholic is what I mean. I wanted to be an artist like him. I wanted to be able to open my mouth and sing like he could. I found out after he died that he was a poet also, 9 �and I’m a poet. [00:24:00] I didn’t want to abuse my children or whoever I loved. And I think I already knew by that time that I loved both -- that I could fall in love with both men and women. That wasn’t something that I could share with my Christian mother and my unpredictable father. But I also knew that I didn’t want to give up on life. That I wanted to -- if I was challenged, I wanted to meet the challenge, face it head-on, and then move through it. So, this is important to know because later, after John was killed -- he never got to meet John. My mother didn’t meet John either, which is sad. There wasn’t time. But after John was killed, [00:25:00] three months later, I was arrested in New Haven, Connecticut for conspiracy charges. A bunch of charges, but conspiracy to commit murder was the charge that stuck. JJ: Can you explain what that was about? EH: I will. But my father never came to visit me in prison. Not because he was mean, he couldn’t face it. He lived in a lot of denial. He just couldn’t face it. So, why was I in prison in New Haven, Connecticut? JJ: And that was your first arrest, that was -- EH: Oh, that was the second -- that was the third time I was arrested. The first-time: arbitrary arrest. And there were other instances where we were routinely -- Party members were routinely [00:26:00] stopped and searched, and that happened lots of times. The second time that I was arrested was the day that John and Alprentice “Bunchy” Carter were killed. The police just picked us up, charged us with malicious mischief, and put us all in jail. And that was because they didn’t want the plan that they’d hatched with the FBI to get exposed because we 10 �already knew. I don’t want to say that we had definite knowledge, but we knew that the FBI was involved, just like we knew that our phones were bugged, we knew that we were followed at night, and we knew that the people following us were not the police. The police followed us and stopped us. JJ: How did you know? I mean -- EH: It’s like sixth sense. However, [00:27:00] we knew that -- at first, I thought these are detectives working with the Los Angeles Police Department. And then Bunchy educated us to -- JJ: You talking about the US Organization? EH: No, I’m not talking about the US Organization, I’m talking about the FBI. I’ll talk about the US Organization in a minute. Long before we had anything much to do with our communications with the US Organization, we realized that the government wanted to kill us. The US Organization couldn’t have wiretapped our phones, they didn’t leave notes on our cars, they didn’t follow us at night, they didn’t shine spotlights on us when we were getting ready to leave the Party office. That was the FBI. And LAPD [00:28:00] was such a wonderful tool for the FBI because they were so backward, ignorant, and overtly racist. I have friends from Texas who said that there were billboards in Los Angeles -- pardon me, in Texas saying, “Join the LAPD.” And the billboards would say all kinds of things. Who paid for this kind of advertisement, I don’t know. At any rate though, by the time John and Bunchy were killed, we knew that the government was set on killing all of us, and we knew that people wearing dashikis and bald heads, which was the [00:29:00] signature of the US Organization member’s, men and women, 11 �that they were not entirely at fault. We knew this. We knew that Black men pulled the trigger on the gun that killed John and Bunchy, but something more was happening. And I think we also had an inkling of it because we knew that one man with a gun didn’t kill Martin Luther King. We knew that one man with a gun didn’t kill Malcolm X, or John Kennedy, or Robert Kennedy. But we didn’t know what we didn’t know about until after John and Bunchy were killed or maybe even almost half a year later was the Counterintelligence Program. We didn’t have a name for it. But Bunchy made it clear to us -- [00:30:00] I will tell you this story. Bunchy was -- have you talked to anybody who ever met Alprentice “Bunchy” Carter? JJ: No, not yet. EH: Well, there’s a lot I could say. We don’t have time, but I could tell you this: That when you met him, that if you had the good fortune of meeting him, you knew immediately that you were in the presence of royalty. That was the distinct feeling I had. And I didn’t know it, but other people had the same sense. He carried himself like a king. He taught himself about African American and African history in prison. He was the head of a gang called the Slauson’s. And from prison, he politicized them. Sounds familiar, doesn’t it? Because the Young Lords came out of a similar [00:31:00] base. He just got the word out, “Quit killing each other. It’s time for us to uplift our people.” And so when John and I joined the Black Panther Party, Bunchy was still in prison or back in prison for a while, I don’t remember, we didn’t meet him right away. But as soon as we did, he sort of took us under his wing. He wasn’t that much older than John or me. 12 �It’s just that he had a great leadership power. I’m not saying that I didn’t, I’m not saying that John didn’t, but he was charismatic and powerful, and hundreds of young men and women, all over Los Angeles, if Bunchy said it, it was true. If Bunchy said we don’t need to be killing each other, we’re not going to kill each other. They didn’t even understand why. Bunchy said it. And that was a good beginning, wasn’t it? I’m talking like I’m having a [00:32:00] conversation with you, but I’m really not. I’m talking to the camera. So one day Bunchy came to the office that we worked out of, a building called the Black Congress. And the Black Congress was an office building that had small offices down a long hallway. And the US Organization had an office three doors from the Black Panther Party office. They were always there; we were always there. And though we teased one another, there was no animosity. What was the teasing about? They believed that culture would uplift people, we believed that the whole system of capitalism needed to be overthrown. And not just for the benefit of Black people, but all oppressed people. [00:33:00] So there wasn’t any changing the Black Panther Party’s view, there wasn’t any changing the US Organization’s view, so we teased one another. Well one day Bunchy came to the office, and the office had those little sort of cubicle spaces that had a desk and a phone, but it also had a community meeting room, and he called ahead of his arrival and said, “Tell the comrades to meet me in the community room.” And we were like “Uh-oh.” So we got there, Bunchy walked in, and we knew that something was up because he walked in with his coat slung over his shoulders and his house slippers on. In other words, he left immediately because he was always 13 �impeccably dressed, not a hair out of place, his clothes were always put together, and he would not show up [00:34:00] anywhere in slippers. He walked into that meeting room and he had papers in his hand. He often led -- by the way -- he often led our political education classes. It was with Bunchy that I first really -- I didn’t understand African and African American history in college. It was through Bunchy that I came to understand colonization and imperialism and the economy of the slave trade. So he walked in and we were all sitting there waiting for him. He said, “Comrades, see this?” And he held up those papers. And we looked and those of us sitting in the front row, I believe I was sitting with Elaine Brown and Joan Kelly, and what we saw were cartoons drawn supposedly of Ron Karenga, the head of the US Organization. And we all [00:35:00] wanted to laugh! This was not the time to laugh. But we wanted to laugh because the cartoons could not have been drawn by anybody Black. You could tell that they were made up, they were fake. And there were letters in slang trying to replicate Black street dialect, it was hilarious. But we bit our lips, we didn’t laugh, and Bunchy said, “We didn’t draw these cartoons, and we didn’t write these letters to the US Organization. Here’s what I want to say. You may not tease any members of the US Organization about their bald heads, about what African clothes they wear, or their ideology. You will not do anything but say “hello,” “good morning,” “good evening,” and keep going. We are all Black people together. We don’t have any beef [00:36:00] with the US Organization. I am on my way now to apologize for these letters and to let Ron Karenga and his organization know that not only did we not write these letters, that the FBI is 14 �writing them.” We found out later that, of course, in Oakland the Black Panther Party was receiving the same kind of letters from organizations. So there was an interest, the FBI had an interest in marketing both organizations and many others to be like enemies, and in creating conflict, and that’s what they did. I’ll never forget that day because when people say, “Oh, what happened on January [00:37:00] 17th was just a fight between the US Organization and the Black Panther Party, two rival groups.” Or some people say two rival gangs. No, it wasn’t. It was the FBI. And it was later that I found out through an FBI informant who met with me that we were right because he told me what was happening on the UCLA campus and in the local office at the FBI to set up situations that would leave the leadership of the Black Panther Party and, I would imagine, the US Organization, diminished. It’s unfortunate that people had to die and that the setup included people [00:38:00] firing at each other. But it was orchestrated by J. Edgar Hoover’s Counterintelligence Program. JJ: Has there been any information later (inaudible)? EH: Yes. About a year later The Los Angeles Times printed an article saying that there was proof that the US Organization wasn’t entirely to blame, nor was the Black Panther Party for what happened on the UCLA campus. Utilizing the student desire to find a director for the High Potential Program (it was an EOP program), the FBI just orchestrated a conflict, and used operatives [00:39:00] to carry out the conflict. So the LA Times wrote this. I don’t have the article anymore, but I used to keep it. Also this informant who met with me said that the director of the field office there in Los Angeles, near Westwood, kept saying 15 �aloud when he went back to the office that day on January 17th there was chaos. And he said that the director there kept saying over and over again, “We fucked up, we fucked up. Nobody was supposed to die.” Why would I believe an FBI informant? An operative? Because he sought me out, and with great sincerity, and a lot of guilt and sadness, he told me this story. [00:40:00] I try as much as I can to pay attention to human beings when they’re talking to me, and I believed him. I didn’t have any reason not to believe him because it really affirmed a belief I already had, that the US Organization did not do this alone. And I think that Black people are so used to fighting with one another that that’s easier to believe, that so and so pulled the trigger, and then so and so pulled his trigger, and then some people died. But, you know, the person who pulled the trigger, and my husband John Huggins, and Bunchy Carter were all pawns in some bigger game. The sad thing, and the almost idiotic thing about all of this, is that the FBI [00:41:00] and the United States government actually thought that they would kill the movement by killing leaders. That never really happened. It didn’t happen. If that were true, then movements wouldn’t continue to pop up everywhere ever so often. But it certainly didn’t stop the Los Angeles chapter of the Black Panther Party and it definitely did not stop me. JJ: Why -- I know the [US?] Organization was involved with Kwanzaa-- EH: Kwanzaa? JJ: Why did they target the Black Panther Party in Los Angeles? What were they afraid about? What were the Panthers doing that they were afraid? EH: US Organization? 16 �JJ: No, the government. The government. EH: Oh, okay. You know it’s fine if you [00:42:00] wear your cultural outfit and talk about Puerto Rican independence, right? That’s fine. You dress up and dance and sing. They’re not going to come after you. You start talking about creating an equal balance in the imbalance of wealth, that wealth needs to be redistributed, and that people shouldn’t be pushed out, shoved out, otherwise left out in the cold without food, shelter, clothing, healthcare, education? Then the government, at that time the government was really upset with that, and considered us communists -- whatever that meant to them. And [00:43:00] their narrative, their story, was that we were a threat to internal security. We were the greatest threat to internal security. Wait a minute, the Breakfast for Children Program that the Black Panther Party started was a great threat to national security. It’s because we were talking about wealth, and power, and privilege, and we were wise enough -- because of Huey Newton and Bobby Seale -- we were wise enough to know that skin color was utilized as an excuse for making it okay in the American mainstream story. “Look, they’re not intelligent, look, they’re less than human, look, they’re the descendants of slaves, it’s okay, we know what we’re doing here.” And we said “No, it’s not okay. No, [00:44:00] wealth needs to be redistributed.” And we also talked about overthrowing the government. We really didn’t, except in rhetoric, talk about killing anybody, and that was mostly, I’m sorry to say, the men of the Black Panther Party talked like that. But we continually talked about overhauling the whole system. And I remember many, many times when we spoke about changing the conditions 17 �(coughs) that create poverty. So, hope that answers that question. JJ: Were you working with some of the other groups there in Los Angeles? EH: We worked with everybody. We worked with the Socialist Workers Party, the Communist Party, we would have worked with US Organization if they -- they were a little bit sequestered. We worked with the Brown Berets when they began, [00:45:00] the labor unions, student movements. That’s why John and Bunchy were on the UCLA campus. They had both become students and had become a part of the Black Student Union, so to speak, so that they could help the students to feel empowered to have their needs met. This was at a time when Black and Brown students were just being allowed to be on UC campuses with financial aid. We worked with the Women’s Movement, the Gay Liberation Movement, the Vietnam vets, the Anti-War Movement, we worked with the Black Police Officers Association. There wasn’t any organization I can think of we did not work with, [00:46:00] unless we knew that their leadership was infiltrated by the FBI, and that was often the case. You know, organizations where they came to create chaos where there was none. And we didn’t all like each other, we didn’t agree with each other’s ideologies, but we knew that united, “a united front” as we used to say, was better than one organization working in a singular fashion. JJ: What about the case in Connecticut? What was that about? EH: Wow, that case in Connecticut was about a lot. That’s exactly what I’m talking about. There was an FBI informant, [00:47:00] George Sams -- now, the leadership of Black Panther Party didn’t know that he was an FBI informant, nor 18 �did I when I first met him. So, by this time I am twenty years old, I have a three week -- well, almost three months, give or take a few weeks, baby, and I’m a widow. And I was living in a traumatized state. I do remember that. I was sad, and when I wasn’t sad, I was withdrawn, and when I wasn’t withdrawn, I was just making it through the days. John was my best friend. He wasn’t just my husband, he was my best friend, and he’s my baby’s father. And I [00:48:00] kept doing Party work because I knew it would make me feel like I was of use. You know, when John -- when we buried John, I wanted to -- I tried actually, literally, to crawl into his grave. And I remember somebody just sort of pulling me from behind from my jacket and I kind of woke up. I couldn’t bear that he wasn’t around anymore. And so, when I met this FBI informant, George Sams, he came -- it was the first time I’d ever seen him in my life -- he came into the New Haven office of the Black Panther Party, which was, by the way, in the home of a man, Warren Kimbro, it was in his apartment. And the chapter of the Black Panther Party was started because when I went to bury John [00:49:00] and to be with his family, the members of the Yale student community and faculty, as well as members of the New Haven Black community asked me to stay and start a chapter of the Party. And so I contacted the Party’s chief of staff, David Hilliard, and I said, “Should I do this?” And he said, “Yes.” And so I did, with the help of so many people. And again, I’m in this state that’s almost -- it’s an altered state. Breastfeeding widow, right? That’s a doubly altered state. New widow, twenty years old. And in walks this strange -- [00:50:00] he was one of the strangest people I think I’d ever met to that point in my life. He walks into the Party office. 19 �He’s pushing in front of him a young man, who seemed to be maybe a year younger or older than me, I don’t know. I had never met the man before. And he’s pushing him, and I see that he, George Sams, has a gun, and he’s got it focused on the back of this young man. And he says to all of us gathered there - and I don’t remember exactly who was in the room, I distinctly remember that I was there -- he said, “This man’s name is Alex and he’s an FBI informant. And we’re going to hold him because we can’t turn him over to the police, we’re in a state of war.” This is how we talked then. All of that rhetoric. [00:51:00] I can’t say that I believed George Sams right in that moment because with the state that I was in was a certain level of cynicism and bitterness. “Well, if he’s an informant, then maybe we should hold him. Well, then the government just killed John…” Those were the kinds of thoughts I was having. The ones that I can remember. And then he sat Alex down somewhere and all of us kind of just were quiet, waiting to see what was going to happen. And George Sams, from that moment forward, kind of took over the Party office. He bossed Warren Kimbro around, he bossed me around, he treated the young -- there was -- very young women joined the Party and I want to say right here and now [00:52:00] that men in the Party didn’t always treat women in the Party as fully capable, as equal. At that time. And people were afraid of George Sams because he wielded a gun. He didn’t have any reservations about hitting someone in the head with the gun butt. He was sadistic. He enjoyed inflicting pain. How do I know that? I saw it. And that was the environment we were in and so eventually Alex Rackley was held under house arrest. He wasn’t allowed to go. He wasn’t treated like a 20 �human being. And I was there. And one night, George Sams and two other people took [00:53:00] Alex Rackley out for the first time I guess in days. It seemed like years to me. It just seemed like it was so -- such a long period of time. And I felt like I couldn’t tell anybody what was going on. I certainly wasn’t going to ring up the police and say guess what. And I didn’t tell my family, I didn’t tell John’s family. I was living in a state of fear and confusion. And you know what? There isn’t a day that goes by all these decades later that I don’t wish that I had stopped this chain of events that occurred in some way. I look back at it and I say, “Well, what could you have done?” [00:54:00] And I think of lots of things I could have done, but would it have been helpful? Would I have died in the process? Probably. But it wasn’t like a had a fear for my life actually. I didn’t feel that my life was worth that much, the state that I was in. But I held myself responsible for Alex’s death because there must have been something I could do. JJ: Even though George had the gun and all that. EH: And took him out and we know now that he had someone else -- this is the thing about George Sams, he didn’t even do it, he had someone else kill him and dump his body in the swamp. The night after Alex Rackley was taken away from that little house in New Haven, that little apartment, I was having trouble sleeping [00:55:00] so I was up. It was a warm summer night, it was May, mid-May, a very warm night. I’m sitting there holding my baby and just waiting. There was a -- I want to say I had an intuitive feeling and there was an energy in the air like something was about to happen. That’s the best way I can explain it to you. And 21 �Party members slept some of everywhere. When we came together people had little pallets on the floor, people were sleeping on the couch, I was sitting on the couch holding my baby, there were three other moms there with their children, there were people upstairs in the bedroom sleeping. We were going to just wake up, brush our teeth, and do Party work. Right? That’s how it was. The windows were all open. The door is locked, but the windows are open to let in fresh air, and all of a [00:56:00] sudden I hear rapid footsteps coming and I knew without a doubt it was the police. Not the FBI, the police. And I could see them coming up the -- there was a little walkway before you got to the apartment door and I could see them running to come, and they knocked the door in, and they came in with their guns pointed. It felt like there were a thousand of them, but there probably were in reality ten or fifteen, and they woke up -- they ran over the women sleeping on the floor, and startled and awakened them, so we have women screaming, you have babies crying, and I’m sitting there just waiting… It's funny how an incident so long ago can be absolutely gone from memory [00:57:00] and in the same time frame an incident so long ago could be absolutely indelible, every second of it, in your brain, and I can remember that night so distinctly. They began overturning -- there were cannisters in the kitchen because Warren had lived in that apartment with his wife before she left him. And so there were flour cannisters, and sugar cannisters, and it was a real little kitchen. And they were throwing flour and sugar everywhere looking for drugs, they said. They were turning over everything they could. It was chaos. And then within about -it seemed like a really long time, but I know it wasn’t, these two suited men came 22 �in, and I knew they were FBI. And they looked directly at me and they said, “Good [00:58:00] evening, Huggins. Come with us.” And I didn’t move. And they said, “Come upstairs with us.” So one of the women who wasn’t so afraid took my daughter and held her for me and I walked up the -- it was a two-floor apartment and I walked upstairs with these men. And, you know, good guy, bad guy. That was the good cop, bad cop thing. To get -- I think they thought they were going to get some information from me, and they asked me what had happened, and I didn’t respond, and they asked me again, and I didn’t respond, and they asked me again and I didn’t respond. And the bad guy leaned forward to me and he said, “We’re going to see burn in the chair, Huggins!” And I said, “Are you done now?” [00:59:00] And he said, “Yes,” and I went downstairs and got my daughter. I held her and I waited. I was so sad… There was a very kind police officer who came to where I was sitting. And he’s an African American police officer and he said, “Miss Huggins?” And I said, “Yes?” He said, “I just want to say that I’m so sorry for your loss. I knew the Huggins family, New Haven’s not a big Black community, but I knew them. I am so sorry and I’m so sorry for tonight.” [01:00:00] And he indicated without words that he was doing what he was told to do, come in and tear up the office, and ransack, and scare people. We were all taken off to jail. There were fourteen of us. Then Bobby Seale, who was not staying in that apartment at all, but who was in town to speak at Yale, was also arrested. So the next morning I was in prison with four other women, and Bobby Seale, and a few other men were arrested and put in prison. Long story short, the people who stayed on trial were myself and Bobby, the 23 �minor [01:01:00] women, meaning they were under eighteen years old were released, and the two people who were accused of actually firing the gun were tried separately. George Sams’ the state’s witness. JJ: So you never got out on bond or anything like that? EH: No, there was no -- there was no bail for that. It was a capital offense. First we were arrested for kidnapping, murder in the first degree, conspiracy with the intent to commit murder, and binding, meaning tying someone up, restraining them, with the intent to commit a crime. It was an ancient law that had been on the Connecticut law books since the 1800s. They dropped that one immediately. They dropped murder one for Bobby and I. [01:02:00] Because they knew full well we didn’t murder anybody. They said that we conspired to have Alex murdered and that Bobby ordered that he be murdered. Bobby did not do any such thing and neither did I. But the charge that stuck, all the other charges were dropped against us, conspiracy with the intent to commit murder. And once again there was no bail. And not only was there no bail, Bobby was sequestered from the rest of the men in the inmate population, and when I was arrested with four other women, we were sequestered from the main inmate population as well. And then when those women were released, I was by myself. There was a period of time when I was in solitary confinement as well. And then the two men who were accused of killing Alex Rackley, and Warren Kimbro was one of them, Lonnie [01:03:00] McLucas, the other, I don’t remember the name of the prison they were in. It was a men’s prison in Connecticut, but they were not anywhere near Bobby Seale. And so we were fourteen months awaiting trial with motions 24 �from time to time, no bail, and six months on trial. JJ: And what came in the trial, what -- ? EH: What came out was that -- JJ: Fourteen months is a long time to be -- EH: I know. New Haven -- well, New England is a very sort of -- at the time was very rigid. What is the word I’m searching -- I’m searching for a word -- it was a very conservative [01:04:00] culture, New England. And so, this was the first trial of any kind in New Haven like this that wasn’t just a hit and run or an outright murder. This was the Black Panther Party. And Yale got very involved. As a matter of fact you might know that President Kingman Brewster came out on behalf of Bobby and I and got shit for it. He almost got fired because he supported us. People marched on the New Haven green in the thousands to free Bobby, free Ericka. And you know, the whole time I never really felt like I deserved any of that attention because I felt responsible for Alex’s death. I don’t think [01:05:00] Bobby Seale ever felt responsible for Alex’s death. Why should he have? He didn’t do a thing. But I was there in that house and though I didn’t harm him directly, I did not stop it, and I didn’t say to George Sams, “You are the craziest butthole I have ever met in my life, and no, you shouldn’t pour boiling water on this man.” I acquiesced, so therefore I felt I was a part of it. So in the trial all of this was brought up to make me seem like -- not even Bobby -- but I was demonized. Now that I’m talking to you about it I can see something that hadn’t really dawned on me before, that it was easier to demonize, to make the jury believe [01:06:00] that it was so wrong for a woman to be doing anything of 25 �this kind. Actually I took the stand on my behalf because it was important that I do so because if New England and New Haven were very conservative, imagine their views about women in leadership of a revolutionary organization. Which in New Haven, one of the reasons why it took so long to pick the jury, trial was six months, it took three months to pick the jury, and the reason why was there was so much bias. We were called a militant hate group, we were called a gang of thugs, all of this. So here I am this woman who supposedly orchestrated the murder of this young man, so the DA was bent on demonizing me. That was the easiest way to get me [01:07:00] and Bobby because they couldn’t say that Bobby was there. They could say that I was there and I was at fault. And I believed it. I didn’t believe I had killed anybody, but I believed the demonization. So what came out is that this man -JJ: What do you mean that you believed the -- EH: I believed what was being said about me. I believed it. Just like we believe in slavery -- I’m talking about internalized oppression. In slavery we believed that we were after a while, after maybe the first fifty or so years, we believed that we weren’t worthy as human beings. So I began to believe it because it’s what I heard all the time. My lawyers didn’t tell me that. My friends [01:08:00] didn’t tell me that. But there was something in me that believed it. Because I so believed that I should have been able to know better, to not co-sign George Sams. JJ: So did you feel you were going to lose the case? EH: M-mm. [No.] JJ: You never felt -- 26 �EH: I didn’t think about it like that. I thought I was going to spend the rest of my life in prison. JJ: That’s what I mean. EH: But I didn’t feel like we were losing. I wasn’t in that kind of state, lose or win. JJ: You thought you were going to be (inaudible). EH: I felt like they’re going to find a way to keep me here. And so what I did was I taught myself to meditate. That’s how I got through it and began to feel a sense of myself again. Eventually the jury hung when it came time [01:09:00] for a jury deliberation. The judge sent them back, “No, we need a verdict.” They hung again. He declared a mistrial and set us free. And he said when he did it, I wish I had it in writing, he said something like, “The Connecticut taxpayers have paid enough for this trial. There’s no evidence against these defendants, they’re free to go.” And there really wasn’t any evidence. There was a tape admitted. I don’t know if it got heard in the courtroom or was admitted as a transcript, I can’t remember. But it was of George Sams trying to get Alex Rackley to admit that he was [01:10:00] an informant. And my voice is on the tape. So that was why -that was one reason why they thought that there was a case against me and it was also another reason why I believed that I was responsible for this young man’s death. So every day I think of him. Every day I send blessings to his family because I know that I was not then in the state where I could have been helpful to anybody, not even to myself. JJ: Could you mention the Party work? What do you mean -- what was the chapter doing there [01:11:00] at the time? 27 �EH: We started a breakfast program, a clinic, we were helping people with cases of police brutality. It was only a short time that I had been there. I got there in January, right after John’s death. JJ: So you had a breakfast program and a -- EH: And a clinic. JJ: But how many kids were attending at that time? EH: I don’t remember. A lot of them though. And the clinic was named after John Huggins. So it was January to May, so that’s a relatively short time. I guess I -- JJ: What section of town that you were -- ? EH: The Hill area. JJ: It was called the Hill? EH: Yeah, and the Hill is just like any other barrio or ghetto in any other city. JJ: So you were picking barrios or ghettos? EH: Oh yeah, we wanted to go where the people were in most need. That’s where the Black Panther Party always went. [01:12:00] The Party office in Oakland, the first office in Oakland, was in West Oakland, which is really poor. Well the people are living in conditions of poverty. The schools, the health, the housing, the food is substandard. JJ: So you just wanted to give away food or? EH: Well, the breakfast program did give away food, they gave breakfast, and sometimes lunch. But what were also doing is awakening people to their own power. That yes, there’s a breakfast program, yes, there’s a clinic, but you have the power to change your destiny. You don’t have to live in these conditions. 28 �You can speak up; you can ask for more. And New Haven is a very rich immigrant community as well. I didn’t know that until I was there [01:13:00] then. And it’s even more so now but it was like African Americans, immigrant Italians, immigrant Irish, Haitian, Dominican, Puerto Rican, and African. And wherever these groups of people were, there was poverty! But instead of working together they were pitted against each other for whatever little poverty program crumbs fell off the cake plate. And so we tried to help people the same thing we did wherever we were -- the Black Panther Party did the same thing everywhere because the Ten Point Program was about clothing, food, shelter, education, the end to police brutality, justice, peace. Are we out of time? [01:14:00] JJ: I think we were just when we’re getting into the program. (break in recording) EH: (cellphone ringing) There’s another whole room right there that’s back -- you can close the door in the bathroom. I’m just directing her all around your apartment. (laughs) I did come to terms with this feeling of unworthiness. I did recognize through my practice of meditation in prison and since then -- I meditate every day -- that it’s important for us to recognize our mistakes and keep moving. [01:15:00] It’s important to have love for ourselves, not just for “the people.” We’re part of the people! And I was thinking back to that period of time when I meditated in prison and I would do so every day. I would just sit -- I didn’t know what I was doing, nobody taught me. I just read a little book that said if you sit quietly and notice your breath, your mind will become calm. I’m glad I thought that that was possible for me, because that’s what happened. It isn’t that my thoughts stop, and like magic I was immediately in a thought-free state or quiet, 29 �it’s just that the thoughts had less power over me. Those emotions of sadness, [01:16:00] and the feeling of unworthiness, and “I-shoulda-woulda-coulda,” kind of dissipated, and I was able to just be right in the present moment. As a result of my practice of meditation, I started an in-prison organization called Sister Love. It was just a way for women in the prison to connect with one another and support one another rather than waiting on the pimp who was supposed to bail them out or the husband that had beat them or to be so terribly sad because they were separated from their children, just like me. I could only see my daughter for an hour once a week on Saturday. The way Sister Love worked, because it couldn’t be an overt political organization, that’s why it had that sweet-sounding little name, is that the [17:00:00] prison allowed us to do each other’s hair. Well, I’m glad they did. Because what they didn’t know that we knew, it was primarily Black and Puerto Rican women, is that around the doing of hair, a lot of conversation can happen, and a lot of transformative education occurs. So every -- once a week we would get together and we would do each other’s hair and we would end up talking about our communities. And it was quiet, and it was under the -- it was beneath the radar of the guards, the prison guards, and the prison authorities. But we actually started an organization in the prison that one of the things we did was to help women who had been brought in addicted to heroin, we would smuggle things to them so they wouldn’t have to kick cold, which is horrific. It’s just horrific to [01:18:00] kick that kind of habit without any medication and no support, which is what the prison did. We watched women die in there. And so we did that. What I’m saying to you is, and what I would like 30 �anyone who uses this interview to help them in their studies, or in their life, or in their activism, it is important to merge spiritual practice and social justice. One without the other doesn’t work. I’m not talking about religion. I’m talking about some kind of practice that uplifts your spirit because activism will burn you out for sure if you don’t have something that holds you from the inside out. JJ: And a final thing, you did some other programs, too right, the liberation school later? [01:19:00] EH: Oh yeah, my life is a series of… doing! (laughs) The Oakland Community School was by far one of the most outstanding things I’ve ever participated in in my life. And someday I’ll write a book about it. When I first was released from prison and after a month collected my daughter and moved back to Oakland, I became one of the teachers, a writing teacher, and then a creative writing teacher, at the Oakland Community School. It was called the Intercommunal Youth Institute at the time because of Huey’s theory of a boundaryless, community-based world. And it was named after Sam Napier, who was the Party newspaper’s distribution manager, who was killed [01:20:00] once again in one of those set-ups that was based in this effort of the COINTELPRO. I’m not talking about who actually pulled the trigger, I’m talking about what was at the foundation of it. Anyway, so then one of the grandmothers of one of the students said why don’t we have -rather than having this big wonderful house, it’s wonderful, to educate the children, why don’t we have a dedicated school building. She said this to Huey. And he formed the Educational Opportunities Corporation to buy a school building, and we opened in the school year 1973-1974 as the Oakland 31 �Community School. And I became the director because the prior director left the Party. And it was student-centered, community-based, tuition-free, [01:21:00] and really taught children how to think. Not what to think, how to think. There were a hundred -- there were ninety children when we first opened our doors and almost immediately a hundred and fifty, which was our capacity. And we always had children on the waiting list, including unborn children. This is how much the community loved it. And we all loved it because our children were not just surviving, they were thriving. We served three meals a day, we had martial arts, we taught them -- after a while we taught them to meditate. Every day, everybody from age four and a half to twelve would sit in the multipurpose room and just sit quietly. I was the most amazing wonderful thing. We didn’t discipline children by demeaning them, yelling at them, [01:22:00] putting them in a detention room, and making them feel terrible. We taught them Hatha yoga postures that they would have to leave and do. Because in doing the posture they had to focus and maintain balance, and so it brought them back to center so that they could come back to the classroom feeling okay, I’ll all right now, I’m a human being again. And those young people are now in their forties. I interviewed them for my master’s thesis, you might want to read it at some point. And they all say, every single one of them, that the Oakland Community School was the high point of their lives. And they’ve gone every which way in their lives, some of them went to jail -- how would they not? They grew up in our communities -- some of them became doctors, some of them became CEOs of organizations, [01:23:00] some of them became actors or actresses, some of 32 �them became lawyers, one became a museum docent, a number of them became teachers. All of them say the same thing, that “The reason why Oakland Community School worked is because you loved us enough.” We took care of them, we loved them. They were individual human beings. And there was nothing they could do that would make us stop loving them. They could make a mistake, but we would still love them. They could get in a fight, but we would still love them. They could not love themselves and we would still love them. And that made an imprint on their hearts. So it was really wonderful to work on that thesis because of them. Being in the academy wasn’t that fun, but interviewing them was really wonderful. JJ: Final thoughts, and then we’ll stop. [01:24:00] EH: One day I was talking to a young poet and he asked me about love. And for some reason I responded with this, that’s now become a quote attributed to me, “Love is a great expression of power. Use it to transform your world.” JJ: That’s great. Thank you very much. EH: Thank you very much! END OF VIDEO FILE 33 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1c1aa03937b2ebbf465a87d5822de9fd.mp4 98026b3d70e1bf17cd325fc7e09eceeb Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Erica Huggins vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Erica Huggins, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 3/13/2013 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Huggins_Erica Title A name given to the resource Erica Huggins video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Huggins, Erica Description An account of the resource Oral history of Erica Huggins, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 3/13/2013 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-03-13 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6f9963969fed44d074cddb5153f62759.pdf a280183ab9d48ff495031d4dcc5c3e2a PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Rosa Meria Hernández Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/28/2012 Biography and Description Rosa M. Hernández grew up on Orchard Street, just down from Waller High School. Like many of the Puerto Rican women of that era, she grew up sheltered, kept inside while boys were free to stay out late and roam the streets. So Ms. Hernández was glad to be the neighborhood store errand girl because it was a way to be free and visit with her friends and neighbors, and to see boys. There were other reasons why Ms. Hernández’s family tried to keep her inside in the evenings. Right down the street at Burling and Armitage, the Black Eagles, Paragons, Flaming Arrows, Imperial Aces, Continentals, Trojans and Young Lords would hang out daily until the early hours of the morning, drinking and talking. Even they would not bring their women, though occasionally they would drive around with them in their soupedup cars and stop briefly to chat. Several of these groups also had auxiliary women’s groups, like the Imperial Queens and Young Lordettes, who would be seen during the day. Ms. Hernández knew everyone of importance in the neighborhood from youth to adults, including Eugenia Rodríguez who attended the same churches as Ms. Hernández and her parents. She recalls how everyone in the neighborhood watched out for each other and that even the alleged gangs were polite and courteous to their neighbors. Her oral history provides much insight into everyday life in Lincoln Park during that significant era in the early to mis-1960s for the Puerto Rican community. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, and whenever you want to start -- ROSA HERNANDEZ: Okay. JJ: -- just start with your name and, you know, like that. RH: Okay. JJ: Okay? RH: All right. My name is Rosa Meria Hernández. The age of 12, I went by the name [as Rosalind?]. I didn’t want to combine my Spanish name, so I put Rosalind, like Rosalind Russell. But I was born here in Chicago on June 12, 1957, Cook County Hospital. My mother was 20 years old. Her name was [Margarita González?]. She came from San Lorenzo, Puerto Rico. She came here to Chicago at the age of 15, married, and my father -- JJ: You know what part of San Lorenzo, or --? RH: Huh? JJ: You know what part of San Lorenzo? RH: Barriada Roosevelt. JJ: Roosevelt, okay. RH: Yeah, from [Lo Arzuaga, Rosales?]. [00:01:00] My father’s from Caguas. His name is [Ramón?] Hernández. He was 24 years old. JJ: You know what part of Caguas? The country or the city? RH: The pueblo that my father is from was, I think, Santiago. JJ: San Salvador or --? 1 �RH: San Salvador. Yes. San Salvador. I know it goes like San. You know, San Salvador. JJ: (inaudible). RH: Where he’s from there. My grandfather is from there also, was from there also, from San Salvador. (Spanish) [00:01:39] [Damian Garai Perez?], (Spanish) [00:01:45]. JJ: (inaudible) RH: (Spanish) [00:02:00] [Felicita Hernández Trinidad?] or Trinidad Hernández. I was born in Chicago in 1957. JJ: Okay, but when did your parents come here? RH: My father came here in 1952. JJ: ’52. RH: Yes. My father came here at the age of 17. JJ: And what did he come for? I mean, what (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? RH: He came here to work. He started working washing dishes at the Palmer House Hotel, and he had family here, a lot of cousins, male cousins with their families that lived here, so -- JJ: Do you remember some of them? RH: -- we lived in the Lincoln Park area. JJ: Do you remember some of the male cousins [here?]? RH: Yes. [Manolo?] -- last name -- I [00:03:00] forgot the last name. Maloco, [Juancho?] -- JJ: Actually, Maloco was Jiménez. 2 �RH: Jiménez, (Spanish) [00:03:08] a lot of old-timers. You know, there was a lot of old-timers in the neighborhood -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). RH: -- especially in the Lincoln Park area. JJ: Maloco was part of this group they had in [Aguas Buenas?], Hacha Vieja. RH: La Hacha Vieja. JJ: Do you remember them? (inaudible)? RH: Yes. Yes. I remember them because my father had a jacket, a leather jacket, and I used to put it on, and he used to tell me to go hang it back up, and I used to laugh at -- you know, make fun of my dad because I said he was in a motorcycle gang. Some movie that I watched. But we lived in the Lincoln Park area. The first time I remember was that I lived on Orchard and Armitage with a family that my mom [00:04:00] had baptized one of the sons that was near my age. I was three, and I was left with the family, and something happened. My mom left me, and she never came back. So, I remember the first place where my -- even though I remember before, Clark and Barry, memories of my mother, of where we lived because I was little. I have a good memory, but -- was on Armitage and Orchard, 653 -- JJ: You said Clark and Barry, ’cause that’s [up north?]. RH: Yes, Clark and Barry that -- my mom lived there because Clark and Barry -- my mom and my dad, when they first got together, we lived on Belden, or -- when they first got together, when I was born, they lived on Cleveland and Armitage and Lincoln, by the [Old President Hotel?]. Remember [00:05:00] the Old 3 �President Hotel in the Lincoln Park area that had the medicine cabinet to the other apartment? Did you remember that? JJ: Oh, I didn’t know that. (inaudible). RH: Yeah. You shared the medicine cabinets together in the President Hotel. There were a lot of families -- JJ: So, you could see right through to the other apartment? RH: You could see in the bathroom. You shared the same medicine cabinet back in the Old President Hotel, and that was on Lincoln and Cleveland -- Sedgwick. Lincoln and Sedgwick. Yes. And, at that time -- JJ: So, you guys lived in that hotel, or --? RH: -- was when Vitin bought El Coco Loco. Vitin Santiago bought the Coco Loco, and my uncle at that time had the old 1800 Club on Halsted and Willow, which is [Rafa?]. Rafa [Rivera?]. JJ: Rafa Rivera. RH: Rafael Rivera (Spanish) [00:05:55] Turin Acevedo, you know, with the long [00:06:00] hair. That’s how Turin Acevedo [want, like, copied?] that from my uncle, [Padrino?] (Spanish) [00:06:06]. Rafael Rivera. JJ: Rivera. Were they related to [Mario Rivera?], the [store?]? RH: No, no. No Mario Rivera. [El Campo?]? JJ: Yeah. RH: No, no, no. JJ: [They weren’t?]? RH: They were not related, no. I knew Mario. 4 �JJ: So, this was a different Rivera. RH: Yeah, [Del Campo?]. JJ: (Spanish) [00:06:23] So, his club was called what? RH: The 1800 Club. JJ: The 1800 Club. RH: He was partners with someone else. I can’t recall -- (Spanish) [00:06:33] because (Spanish) [00:06:43] -- they had a lot of problems, and it was real domestic. She was a beautiful woman, and she [stood?] with us for a while, and he left, I think to Cleveland. Something [00:07:00] happened where he left to Cleveland. And so, my father went into business with my uncle and the 1800 Club, only for a few months. This was on 1800 North Halsted and Willow Street. JJ: On Halsted and Willow? (inaudible) ’cause the Campo was right there too. They had (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). RH: Yes, right across the street. JJ: So, you had a couple businesses [there?]. RH: Right. So, my father was located -- he lived on Lincoln and Larrabee, right in front of Grant Hospital. JJ: Ramón Garai. RH: Ramón Garai Hernández, my father, and the husband of the -- I called her my aunt, my mom’s comadre, found my father living at that address. At that time, my father had remarried, and I had a six-month-old sister and a six-year-old stepbrother. JJ: Okay. And we’re talking about [00:08:00] what year? 5 �RH: In 1964. JJ: ’64, okay. RH: ’63, ’64. I’ve tried to go back with my mom about things, but my mom did not really like to talk about anything, you know. My dad -- JJ: Why is that? I mean, why --? RH: Because my mom -- at the time, on 1900 North Bissell and Wisconsin, my father mutilated my mother’s face in that bar. That’s one of the dark -- JJ: In the 1800 Club? RH: No, no, no. This was on Bissell and Wisconsin. JJ: It was a different bar? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) RH: When I was two. I think I was two. They don’t like talking about stuff like that, you know. JJ: So, mutilated meaning that he cut her -- RH: He mutilated my mother in the face. He found her in the bar. I was in the [00:09:00] car, and she was looking for my dad, so I can vouch for that. They don’t talk about stuff like that, but I remember. I was two. From that, my mother totally disappeared from Chicago, and, at two and a half to three years old, I was left in the care of my mother’s godsister, comadre, and, after a while -- I’d say maybe, like, 10 months -- my father was located ’cause my father was nowhere to be found either. I guess, in that time, in that area, things happened. He went - I don’t know where. I think he went to Philadelphia, New Jersey, but, you know, my mom totally just abandoned me. So, I went to live with my dad, and his wife, and my sister, my baby sister, and my stepbrother, [00:10:00] and I grew up on 6 �Lincoln and Larrabee. I think it was 2758 or 2157 -- I can’t remember the address -- on North Lincoln, and it had the porches. It was in an [angle?], and there was the old Stand-JJ: So, this is more like around Belmont or [somewhere?] -- RH: No, no, no. This was on Lincoln, Webster -- JJ: Webster. RH: -- and Larrabee. JJ: And Larrabee. RH: And there was the old Standard Oil station right there. Remember? And the building that we lived in used to be a hall. I don’t know if it was a theater or a banquet, but I remember that they had front gates with chains on it. The building was real big, and it had four floors, and it was combined with -- you know. We used to have a burglar in the neighborhood called [El Gato?], and he used to go and rob in this [00:11:00] building, so -- and we all had our [heads up with?] El Gato. And, from our porch, we could see Larrabee Street and the store there on Larrabee, and Lincoln, and -- JJ: Was it a Spanish store or no, just a --? RH: It was a candy -- they had a lot of candy. JJ: A candy store. RH: I’m a candy fanatic. Me and my brother. My brother and I, we were candy -- we grew up right there. We went to Lincoln School. We went to Lincoln School, and we lived right in front of Grant Hospital. JJ: Where was Lincoln School? Where was Lincoln School? 7 �RH: Lincoln School’s on Geneva, [Terrence?], and Grant Street. Right there. [Belden?] and [Eugenie?]. JJ: By Grant Hospital, right there. RH: Grant Hospital, yes. Grant Hospital is right in front. And that area there -- I used to [00:12:00] go walk to the Carnival grocery store, and, for a couple of years, my grandfather would pick up his granddaughters -- my aunt’s granddaughters -- and there used to be a [Bernardine Ballet School?], and, on Saturdays, my grandfather would pick us up, and take us to do ballet, and read a paper in front while we practiced ballet, my grandfather. Those are one of my most cherished memories. JJ: So, he was really into ballet, or he just [liked it?]? RH: We were into ballet. JJ: I mean, he was into it too, then. RH: My grandfather wanted to keep us busy because we were so many girls in the family. My aunt had, like, seven girls, and my other aunt had, like -- at that time, at my age, she had little boys. The boys started coming -- JJ: Were they all living in the same area? RH: And we all lived in the same area. My aunt -- JJ: Was that a common thing, [00:13:00] for families to --? RH: Yes, we all lived around together, and -- JJ: In Lincoln Park. So, it was common to have -- RH: It was common. JJ: -- [different families?]. 8 �RH: We had family -- we all moved together. We all lived together, and we went trickor-treating together. We went to school together. When we moved from Lincoln, we moved back to that building that I lived in, where my mother left me, which is Orchard and Armitage. I lived 653 West Armitage, and we moved to 657. And then, my aunt, [Heidi?], moved to the second floor, and we lived on the third floor, in front of Robert Waller High School and Arnold Upper Grade Center. JJ: Right in front of the school, right there. RH: Right in front. Armitage and Orchard. Right there. But my most memories are really [00:14:00] Lincoln Avenue, the Biograph Theater. We went every Sunday. JJ: So, if you were with a lot of family [and that?], you actually hung out outside, not like some other women that are sheltered. You were more, like, outside. RH: No. See, we grew up on a porch. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). RH: We grew up on a porch, but -- JJ: Okay. What does that --? RH: -- I was the store girl -- JJ: The store girl. RH: -- you see. My stepmother was the kind -- if she wanted to eat a piece of gum, she sent me to the store to get it, so I was always out, you know? I’d go to the store, and I put down my stuff, and I buy me candy, and I swing on the swing. I used to take hours coming back from the store, but I used to go to the store, like, four, five, six times a day in the winter, the blizzard, and the rain, and the cold. It was a freedom for me because we were not allowed -- the only time that we were 9 �allowed, any of the kids in [00:15:00] that neighborhood -- we were not kids that roamed the streets. We were not children -- because there are families in that neighborhood that had nine, like the [Betinas?] had nine, and the [Nieveses?] had eleven. JJ: So, these were big, huge families. RH: Huge families. My aunt had eight. JJ: And not only did they have eleven, but they had other relatives -- RH: And they had other relatives. So -- JJ: -- living in the same neighborhood. RH: So, we all went to school together, so we -- JJ: So, what year are we talking about (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? RH: I’m talking about -- we moved out of Lincoln Avenue in 1960-- right after the blizzard, ’67. We moved -- JJ: ’67. RH: -- there in ’68. JJ: ’68. RH: Yeah. We moved there. JJ: So, at that time, there were a lot of Latinos still living there, in 1968. RH: The buildings were still there, and the gas station was -- when we moved, you know, because I used to go to the Carnival grocery store. So, from [00:16:00] Armitage and Orchard, I had cut through. Remember, there used to be a playground on Larrabee and Armitage, so I used to cut through the playground 10 �and cut through Dickens into Carnival ’cause Carnival was on Lincoln and Dickens. Now, I was, like -- ’67, I was 11 years old, so I had shortcuts. JJ: Now, going back, now, is that were your father came to live first when he came -? RH: My father first came to live -- was on Belden and Clark. JJ: Belden and Clark. RH: Belden and Clark by Augustana Hospital and that area. JJ: And what year was that? RH: My father came in 1952 to Chicago. JJ: So, he didn’t -- RH: He was 17. JJ: -- live on Chicago Avenue (inaudible). RH: No. He never lived on Chicago Avenue. JJ: But he lived on Belden and Clark. RH: We lived right there, on Belden and Clark. JJ: Okay, so -- RH: He [00:17:00] lived right by the warehouse where they had the St. Valentine’s Massacre. JJ: Right, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). RH: Because he would show us. JJ: Right. RH: He used to take us on a tour on Sundays of the neighborhood. My father taught me Chicago history, which I now -- 11 �JJ: So, were there more Puerto Ricans living there [on Belden at that time?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? RH: Yes, at that time, yes. Really, everybody started settling -- JJ: In ’52? 1952? RH: 1952. Everybody started settling into the President Hotel. That’s where everybody was a couple. JJ: Now, there was a Lincoln Hotel. Was it the President Hotel or the Lincoln Hotel? RH: Was it the Lincoln Hotel? JJ: Maybe it was the Lincoln Hotel. RH: But then, it was changed to the President Hotel. JJ: Maybe it was called President Hotel too. RH: It was changed to the President Hotel. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) there was -- RH: Because there was a candy store right across the street. JJ: I just want (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- RH: The same area, same hotel. JJ: Oh, same hotel, [just changed name?]. RH: So, everybody that started coming into -- [that lived?] because we had the old Harrison Gents on Halsted [00:18:00] South, you know, Halsted past Elston. Was it? Past Elston? Halsted? JJ: Over by Division, by --? RH: Right. Right. That’s where there were families from there, like -- oh, God. There’s some families that came from that way, but the brothers started coming 12 �from the families, and the sisters. Everybody married into people from the neighborhood, so everybody that married went to live at the Lincoln Hotel, President Hotel. They all went to live there. And then, once they had children, they couldn’t have their kids there. JJ: And this was a hotel where the -- RH: On Sedgwick, Lincoln -- JJ: Right, but, I mean, it had the -- RH: -- and Cleveland. JJ: What else? What other features did it have besides the -- RH: Oh, okay. JJ: -- medicine cabinet that --? RH: The [00:19:00] other feature about the Lincoln Hotel was -- JJ: [Just try to?] describe what it looked like. RH: It was tall. It was a tall building. I think it was, like, seven stories high. Think it was seven stories high because it had a old elevator. I used to be scared of that elevator, and my father -- JJ: But was it apartments or -- I mean -- RH: Yes, there were rooms. It was a hotel, so, apparently, there were rooms. It had close to 80-something rooms. JJ: So, a whole family lived in one room? RH: No, no, no, no. No. Certain couples, you know, from the families. Like, one family would have a brother, or they would have a sister, or two brothers, and, once they met women from other of our families, they would go live there before 13 �they rent an apartment, you see. But I know that there were no kids there. You could have the babies, but you [would have?] no kids because there were some families in [00:20:00] that hotel that snuck children in, and they would fall out the window. That’s why they closed the hotel, ’cause too many kids were falling out the window. JJ: Oh, there were kids that were falling out the window? RH: So, that’s why it was closed down. JJ: Okay. So, that did happen (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). RH: That did happen, yes. It did happen. So, we never [intervened?] with the West Side, like to Humboldt Park area. We didn’t know anything. We mainly kept in the Lincoln Park area because we had the lake right there, and we had the zoo, and we had -- the zoo wasn’t built -- we had the zoo, but we didn’t have the farm yet. The farm was built in ’70, around that time. JJ: The Lincoln Park Zoo farm? RH: The farm, when the brought -- JJ: The farm. RH: -- the cows and all that stuff. JJ: But you had the lagoon? RH: Where our parents used to drag us to the dairy, where they -- and it stunk. JJ: [00:21:00] Were you involved in any organization? Was your family involved in any organization? RH: Yes. My family came from North Avenue and Western, [Los Hijos de Caguas Sociedad?]. Los Hijos de Caguas. 14 �JJ: On North Avenue -- RH: That’s where we had all our weddings, all our baptism parties, all our cotillions, all our -- we were members of that hall. That’s where I started meeting kids from the West Side, like the [Suchet?] family, [Raymond Suchet?], and a lot of -- the [Cruzes?] from Division, [George?] Cruz. I started meeting them because I knew them when I was little from this club that -- you know, where everybody would get together for weddings and events. We would see the [Condes?], Lily y Su Gran Trio come. At that [00:22:00] time, a lot of singers -- because, see, my mother’s related to [González?] from La Rosa del Monte moving company. Forgot his name. JJ: Not [Ramos Movers?]. Not them. RH: No, not Ramos. Not (inaudible). No. JJ: [The González movers?]. RH: No. González. JJ: González. RH: Yeah, he was from San Lorenzo Express, and then he opened his own. I this it was La Rosa del -- no, he worked for La Rosa del Monte Movers, and then he opened San Lorenzo Express. That was my mother’s cousin, [El González de?] San Lorenzo. They’re from San Lorenzo. So, we, growing up -- JJ: Were there a lot of people at that club, or -- I mean -- RH: Yes, there was a lot of [00:23:00] members because my uncle, my godfather, Rafael Rivera, was one of the -- like a [shrine?]. They had banners. He was a -- JJ: [In the club?]? 15 �RH: -- loyal members. JJ: So, these were, like, lodges today, what they call -- RH: Right. So, he was a loyal member, my uncle, and he -- JJ: I didn’t know they got that elaborate, that fancy, with the club. RH: Yes, they used to have -- that was our hall. JJ: They had officers and all that stuff? RH: Yeah. [La Sociedad?] Hijos de Caguas. JJ: Okay. Society. Society. RH: Yes, it was a society. Yes. And so, my uncle was one of the true members, loyal -- JJ: And he had a uniform? RH: No. He had a suit, but they would wear, like, this big banner thing. JJ: [Oh, I see?]. RH: Like, president banner, but, you know, they didn’t have no funny hats like the Shrine brothers. JJ: Okay. And then, they would be part of the parade or something? RH: Yes, they used to -- JJ: [They would participate?]? RH: -- be part of the parade. And, [00:24:00] at that time, we were mainly -- a lot of the families, the children were kept indoors at the time because there was no gangs. There were no gangs. JJ: There were no gangs? RH: The boys -- no. 16 �JJ: In Lincoln Park? RH: No. No. Now, Lincoln Park, there was -- [as?] growing up, they started to become gangs. JJ: But, in the beginning, there were -- RH: But, in the beginning, we’d never seen any gangs. All we knew about was the Harrison Gents, you know, and, as we started growing into -- the only first really society of organization was the Young Lords. JJ: Okay. That was later. RH: That was, yes, later. That history there, for me, was the heart of my neighborhood. JJ: Can you explain that, or -- I mean, we can go back to it later too. RH: Because, at that time, see, we lived in that neighborhood. We were behind [00:25:00] Cabrini-Greens. We had Cabrini-Greens on Division and Halsted. We had them close. There was a way you could get to Cabrini-Greens. Even though there were Spanish families that lived in Cabrini-Greens, like the [Negrons?], Quiñonez family, you know, Adolfo Quiñonez, the breakdancer -- for breakdancing. Yes, he came from Cabrini-Greens, and a lot of -- there were some families that were Latinos that lived in Cabrini-Greens, so we did a lot of going into Cabrini-Greens when I was a little girl, like, maybe five, six years old. JJ: To visit the families, or --? RH: To visit families. See, my father was a chef later on, international chef, and he drove a taxi in the day, and he delivered bread for the Gonnella bread company. [00:26:00] My father had three jobs. So, you know, he delivered bread from four 17 �in the morning until ten o’clock, come home, take a nap, get up at twelve, one o’clock, drive a taxi ’til four o’clock, get home, eat, and then go to the restaurant from six to two. My father was a master chef on Lake Shore Drive. JJ: You said he did work at the Palmer House. RH: Yeah, but -- when he was younger, he washed dishes. [When? What year?]? You know, when he washed dishes -- he originated working in the job in a restaurant in a hotel, my father. My father started to learn -- he mainly became a dishwasher, my father, and I guess he learned in the restaurant, you know, the area, the cooks and that. So, my father became a chef on [00:27:00] Lake Shore Drive, 1400 North Lake Shore Drive, called [Le Coq Au Vin?], and, at that time, the owner’s sister or mother lived in the apartment next -- we moved in in that apartment because I remember it was all furnished. See, that apartment was furnished because, you know, there were the Nancy Drew books, the Trixie Belden books, the Hardy Boy books. See, when we were growing up in Newberry and Lincoln School, my father didn’t want us to speak Spanish. He wanted us to learn English the right way. He wanted us to learn Spanish. He put us in TESL, which was Teaching English in the Spanish Language, but we were already English because we would speak [00:28:00] English, and we spoke Spanish to our parents, but our parents wanted us to make sure we were fluent in writing and reading, so he made us go to the classes, and, in certain areas -- JJ: How was his English? RH: Huh? JJ: How was his English? 18 �RH: That was easy. That -- JJ: I mean, how was his English? RH: His English was broken up, but, you know, my father talks English, but he has the Puerto Rican accent. My father, and my mom too. They know how to defend themselves in English. JJ: But do you think that was a reason that -- RH: That we -- yeah. They learned from us. JJ: That he wanted you to speak perfect English. RH: Yes, to teach -- what happened was it was a interchangeable thing for -- we were teaching them English too. They paid attention because, see, they had to keep up with us, you see. [00:29:00] My brother would say, “Hurry up. Let’s finish up your chores, and we’re gonna go to the show.” And, you know, my dad would pop out. “What do you mean, ’the show?’ Why are you gonna go to the show?” And we go, “Dad, Dad, we’re gonna go to the Biograph. We want to see the Beatles movie, or we want to see Godzilla.” “Oh, well, I don’t know. How long is that gonna be? How long?” “We’re gonna come back at 10 o’clock.” I remember we used to come back, walk on Lincoln Avenue. This is Lincoln Avenue. JJ: You went to the Biograph? RH: The Biograph. Our -- JJ: Was that the neighborhood show? RH: That was our neighborhood show. JJ: So, were there a lot of Spanish people that went to that --? 19 �RH: Not really because -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). RH: -- my brother and I grew up very interested in history. We were movies. We were always in front of a TV, my brother and I. We watched everything. We were housebound children, you know, except for me. I was always in the store. Sometimes, I’d run and get [00:30:00] some [homework?], or sometimes I’d run to my aunt and see if she needed anything from the store. See, I made my candy money. I would make candy money, which, later on, turned into cigarette money. JJ: Candy to cigarettes. RH: Because I was very nervous girl. A lot of Latinos in that time were very hard, disciplinary people, you know. We didn’t get the time out and the little punishment. We got whupped. We got our butts -- JJ: No time out, no. RH: -- kicked. They’d beat us like a man. Oh, and don’t swear. They’re swearing all over the place, and, if you say one swear word, you’re dead. I used to tell my dad, “Why are you hitting me? You swear.” He goes, “Yeah, but I’m a big man. I [00:31:00] work hard.” JJ: But how did he feel later? I mean -- RH: After that, we -- JJ: But was that a common thing? I mean -- RH: No. We grew up with -- JJ: Was that only your father, or were -- 20 �RH: Everybody. JJ: In the neighborhood? Everybody? RH: Oh, yeah. Everybody had strict fathers. See, we came from a household, that neighborhood came from a house -- every household had a mother and a father. JJ: Okay. So, they had a mother and a father. RH: And, now, as we’re older, we found out the father had women too. The men in that neighborhood handled two families at a time. Sometimes three. They had kids somewhere else. JJ: You found that out later? RH: And we found it out later. You know, once we got started going into high school, you meet a girl that’s [Linda Hernández?], and I told my dad, “Dad, there’s a Linda Hernández in my school,” and my father goes, “Oh, that’s your sister.” “What? I have a sister?” Like nothing [00:32:00] because they never talked. They never came to visit. [I didn’t have any?] brothers and sisters, you know? JJ: So, it was common for men to have mistresses. RH: Yes, mistresses. They pass them as their cousins. JJ: And what about their wives? What did they think about that? RH: Their wives were too busy taking care of the kids, and cooking, and cleaning, and giving us lunch. You know, we didn’t eat lunch at school. They had to cook us three meals a day. Our favorite was coffee and corn flakes growing up. JJ: So, there was no lunch program or breakfast? RH: There was no lunch program. There were times that kids used to get hit by a car. They’d see ’em in the morning and, “Hey, what happened to So-and-so?” “Oh, 21 �did you hear? He got hit by a car.” “What?” You know, we all had to run home to see Bozo. We had to run home and see [00:33:00] Bozo, so our lunch was Chef Boyardee spaghetti and meatballs and white rice, or guanimes, with habichuelas. JJ: What is guanimes? What is that? RH: That’s flour -- like dumplings -- JJ: Dumplings, okay. RH: -- that my stepmother would make these long -- they looked like icicles, long ones, and then she’d make them, and boil them, and boil them, and she used to bake them, and, by the time we came for lunch, we had beans and guanimes, and sometimes eggs, papas fritas, French fries, and amarillos. That was our lunch. Then, we go, ten to one -- JJ: Amarillos are what? What --? RH: Soft plantain, yellow plantain. Bananas. Plantain. Platanos. That was our lunch. That’s what we grew up on. [00:34:00] We did have a milkman. We did have a milkman. I remember my stepmother’s sister’s husband [Joe?] used to be the driver, the milkman, and it was run by the Home Juice Company, and they were gallons that you would leave out on the porch, and he would pick them up and leave the milk. I remember that. But, see, I had to go buy the milk myself ’cause my stepmother -- she didn’t invest in none of that, but I used to remember him driving the little truck and the bottles clanging in there. And, in the summer, everybody was an ice cream driver. See? My dad tried it one summer. He went, and he got an ice cream truck, and he put everything in there. Ice cream, 22 �nuts, bananas, cherries, [00:35:00] pineapple, and he stuffed it up, and he went to take a nap because, see, these men loved naps. And this is in the Halsted and Armitage area. I’m still talking about Halsted and Armitage. JJ: It sounds like there’s a lot of Spanish people living there. RH: A lot. It was everybody. You know, the baker was Puerto Rican. The cleaners were -- they were Cuban. They were always [there, Cubans?]. That was the cleaners, our cleaners. They became mega-rich with us because, then, after the ’90s, the yuppies moved in. They’re still there. They still own that cleaners. My godfather was (Spanish) [00:35:48]. He upholstered furniture. [Charlie?]. Charlie -- forgot his name. He was like my godfather of water, and he upholstered. He was the upholsterer. [00:36:00] He had a shop on Halsted and Armitage, and he would upholster green, and yellow, and blue, and white vinyl on the couches. JJ: So, you had the godfather of water. What do you mean? Was that confirmation or baptism? RH: Yeah. Okay. Back in the days, coming from Puerto Rico, they all were families, and friends, and cousins, and stuff. What happens is, when they’re best friends, and they’re in a party, and the wife’s having a baby, you know, the men are like, “Oh, I want you to be my kid’s -- put water on my baby.” You know, before you get baptized, they put water on you. JJ: So, they would baptize you first. 23 �RH: Yeah. So, I have four godfathers. I have Charlie, the one that put water on me. I have Rafael Rivera, the one that bought my dress. [00:37:00] I have another godfather that drove us to the church, and then I have my real godfather. JJ: You said your real godfather? RH: My real godfather. JJ: Why is he the real one? RH: He’s the one that baptized me. He’s the one that baptized -- JJ: So, the other ones were -- RH: The other ones -- JJ: -- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). RH: -- were just friends. JJ: But in case you got sick before you got baptized. RH: Right. In case, like me, when I busted my chin on the porch. JJ: In case you passed away. Then, you already were baptized. RH: I was two, and I remember, and I know my father was with my mother at that time. JJ: So, these were Catholics, then? So -- RH: We were all Catholic. JJ: Were most of the people in the community Catholic, the Latinos? RH: Yes. We were all Catholic, yes. JJ: So, where did you go to church? RH: We went to church at St. Michael’s. We were all baptized at St. Michael’s in the Lincoln Park area. [00:38:00] Father Kathrein was very busy. 24 �JJ: Father Kathrein. (inaudible). RH: Yeah. He was very busy. He did all the baptisms, all the weddings, and there weren’t too many sweet 15s. You know why? Because we were all -- there were struggling families. There were families -- like, my uncle worked in the day and then worked on the Turin Acevedo Show, and my other uncle, his brother [Pedro?] that lived on Howe Street, he worked at the gas station, the Gas for Less, right there on Armitage and Sedgwick. That was my uncle, [Tío Pedrito?]. JJ: That’s when gas was 50 cents. RH: Right, right, right. That’s when we used to put air in our -- well, see, we didn’t ride bikes, but, you know, my brother and I, we used to go with -- my brother never went outside since [00:39:00] Lincoln Avenue. My brother [Josi?] -- that’s my stepmother’s son. That’s my brother. JJ: What do you mean, “never went outside?” RH: Huh? JJ: Never went outside? RH: We never rode bikes. JJ: Oh, I see what you’re saying. RH: We weren’t allowed to jump rope because I was always clumsy. I was always getting hurt, so I never played gym. A lot of the fathers never let the girls in that neighborhood play gym. Okay? But, when we got affiliated with the neighborhood, affiliated, we got to know people in the neighborhood because we used to see the guys with the berets on, the purple berets, you know, which -- JJ: The Young Lords. 25 �RH: Yeah, and we said, “Wow, what is that?” And my brother said, “I’m gonna be one. I’m gonna be one of those.” And I go, “They don’t even know you. You never go outside. You got to be outside.” Plus, you know, we were terrified of my mom, his mother, but she [00:40:00] just protected us. She was overprotective. JJ: Now, you said that you saw the purple berets, and were they big? You said they were big in the neighborhood, or what do you mean? RH: They were mainly everywhere. They remind me of the Guardian Angels at first, like the Guardian Angels are at first, because there was a lot of -- a lot of crime started happening after Martin Luther King got assassinated. We started having a lot of [hostile?]. The neighborhood started getting dangerous, or bad, or not safe at night. A lot of poetry was written about the L on Sheffield and Willow. There’s a poem. “Under the L”, it’s called. There were certain areas you couldn’t go at night. I did a lot of babysitting, [00:41:00] mainly a lot in Magnolia, and Racine, and Lakewood, as I got older. When I was in eighth grade, I was walking dogs in the neighborhood. I was making money every Saturday because, you know, I grew up deprived of -- no clothes. I wore clothes from the second-hand store. By the time I went to eighth grade, I had everything paid. I paid everything myself. I left home at 12. I went to live with my mom. When I met my mom, she lived on Halsted and Webster, and I went to live with her and her boyfriend that was living with us, and I had already been to school. I was pretty good in school. I just was not happy at my stepmother, even though [00:42:00] my brother and my sister -- leaving them behind, but, at that age, 12, I learned a lot of 26 �perspectives things, important things, being a Hispanic. I used to pick up your newspapers and read them. JJ: When you say you -- the Young Lords? RH: The Young Lords’ newspapers. I used to even take some to school with me. I used to -- JJ: Why would you -- so -- RH: Because I wanted my friends to read stuff that -- you know, we were kept in the dark about things because our family really -- we didn’t have no history of the neighborhood. A lot of people now, they come, and they know I know my history because I know every building [has its?] history, and I was privileged [00:43:00] to have the English language put in us because we were -- some of us ended up in summer school, lot of us, and it wasn’t because we weren’t smart. It was because it was open. There were teachers in there, so we had to go. That was the summer. A lot of us were in summer school. So, you know, as we got into older, we weren’t into -- the teenage pregnancy came out in the neighborhood, and I got caught into it at 15, but I was responsible. I don’t have a police record. I never stole. I never -- JJ: So, were they trying to make that, like, criminal, or --? RH: Yeah. The neighborhood was mainly [00:44:00] falling -- JJ: What do you mean? RH: -- apart. JJ: What do you mean, falling apart? 27 �RH: Like, falling apart -- as I was growing up, some mothers that had single children had to go work because they were separated, but, you know, some had -- as we got older, the fathers were there when we were little, and I was (inaudible) growing up and wondering. I was the wonder girl. I wondered, like, wow. I knew my mother’s name. I remembered her face, and I was, like, on a hunt, so, when I met my mother at 12 years old on the corner of Halsted and Armitage, I knew who she was. I had memories of her, and I left my dad. That was the -- JJ: All of a sudden, she appeared there [00:45:00] on Halsted and --? RH: She appeared. She lived on Halsted and Webster. She lived in the neighborhood. She had came back in the neighborhood. She was around. She was around because my stepmother used to let her come in when I was little. She was around. It’s just that I was -- my dad kinda protected me from that, but, growing up, you know, you make something in school for Mother’s Day, and I wasn’t really -- I felt I wasn’t my stepmother’s child. I was just a kid that she was taking care of, but, for mother’s day, I always brought my father something. Anything I made in school was for my dad because my dad was all I had. You see? My dad was all I had, even though I had cousins, and his sister, and my uncle’s brothers, their family, and [00:46:00] I kind of grew up [by myself, really?], but my brother, he protected my childhood, you see. As we got older, my brother would be in the yard, playing with the friends downstairs. I had to go upstairs. My brother wouldn’t let me be out there with his friends. JJ: This was your older brother? RH: This is my stepbrother. 28 �JJ: Stepbrother. RH: And, you know, my father didn’t like us sitting on nobody’s lap. The only person we could sit -- at a certain age because Abuelo was like that too. Once you’re seven years old, you’re off the lap. We weren’t -- JJ: So, you had rules like that. RH: Yeah. JJ: Don’t sit on nobody’s lap. RH: Don’t sit on no man’s lap. JJ: Any other rules like that, or --? RH: Yeah. That’s -- JJ: Any other type of rules? RH: Yeah. When people came over, like my dad’s friends and their wives, the wives would be with my stepmother in the kitchen, and they would come with kids. We weren’t running around the house. We were in our [00:47:00] room, and I was the waiter. [Papi?] called me (Spanish) [00:47:06] because I would bring the beer and light the cigarette. That’s how I started smoking. He’d say, “Here, go light the cigarette for me.” And I’d go, and I’d light the cigarette, and I’d smoke it and bring it back, and he’s like, “What happened?” I go, “I had to walk down the hallway.” That’s how I started smoking. I was, like, eight. JJ: So, when visitors came, you were the waitress. RH: Yeah, I would serve them. I’d be around. I won’t be in their way, but I knew the timing. See? I’d bring ’em new beers and empty the ash tray. You see? I was the waitress, so Papi always called me (Spanish) [00:47:48]. “(Spanish) 29 �[00:47:48].” I was the waiter, and I still do. I do that because I have a problem -I have to be on a [00:48:00] track. A pattern. I have a pattern. I suffer from, like, OCD. I’m always -- like, if I’m talking to you, and you have something here, it has to come off your face. JJ: OCD stands for what? RH: I forget the name of it. I have it. It’s written down. I just got diagnosed with it, so -- it’s where you’re perfectly -- everything has to be perfect. If you have a carpet with fringe on it, you got to make sure they’re straight. Like, if I see that dirty, that plant, I have to clean it. I was real bad, but, now, I don’t think about it, but, when I was little, I was like that, but I never knew I was like that, and I was a reader. [00:49:00] I always had a book in front of me. I read all Nancy Drew, all those big books that were in that library. See, I have a library. I have books everywhere. This is all me. All these books, everything, that’s what I cherish. That’s what I learned in school. I didn’t carry books going home. I stole them. I’d steal a book, and leave it at home, and mark down my homework, and I didn’t have to carry books coming from school. I’d just go home. Sometimes, my dad would have to pay for a missing book that I would keep, but I have books that my father gave me when I was little. I still have ’em. JJ: Now, this was a community, then, when you were growing up. RH: This was a community. We all went to the library together. [00:50:00] We were not troublemakers. There was music everywhere. See, I loved music. I always had a transistor radio, or I had -- my grandfather would buy me all types of things. My grandfather bought me the record player that you carried. My 30 �grandfather had us radios. He had us watches. I had a good upbringing. I had a good upbringing. We weren’t poor. We weren’t that poor because my dad had three jobs. My dad was a moneymaker. My stepmother, (Spanish) [00:50:40]. She used to make things for tables, towels, which I hated, with the [doll’s?] faces on them. Oh, my God, I hate those. Or the toilet tissue covers. My stepmother sewed everything. My stepmother made everything. But, you know -JJ: Were there other [00:51:00] people in the neighborhood like her, that --? RH: Yeah, there were people that were selling clothes, like the Negron. [Josephine?], [Josefina?], she used to sew (Spanish) [00:51:11]. There was another -- JJ: And this was house-to-house that she sold them? RH: There was another man with -- (inaudible) sold a lot of the (Spanish) [00:51:19] and the curtains, but we weren’t into curtains. We grew up with the plastic curtains. Remember the plastic curtains? My stepmother did not like curtains, so, now, you’ll see, I don’t like curtains either. JJ: (inaudible). RH: She hated the dust. It drove her [nuts?], my stepmother, so I grew up with no curtains. I only have ’em in my bedroom. That’s why I will not -- and I’ve got -- JJ: But you decorated [and everything looks good?]. RH: Yeah. I don’t like curtains. I think they’re messy. I like the light. I like [00:52:00] the light because I grew up with brightness, you know. We grew up mainly -Chicago area. We grew up in a neighborhood where we had to learn how to sit. We go to somebody’s house. We had to sit down. We couldn’t jump around. 31 �We had to sit there. We were asleep while everybody played dominoes at one, two in the morning, but we’re still sittin’ there. JJ: The kids just sat in the living room. RH: Yeah. Our father’d sit us there, and there you sat. There, we would play, and throw things, and stick our tongues out, and me and your sister, we used to jump everywhere. We drove your mom crazy. I remember. I think you had yellow and green sofas. JJ: In my house? In our house? You got a better [00:53:00] memory than I do. RH: Yellow and green, ’cause we would jump from one sofa to here. Not jumping. Just playing, me and Daisy. We were always playing, and my Papi would be in the kitchen. JJ: Daisy, my sister. RH: Uh-huh, your sister Daisy. And I remember your sofas were so cute ’cause they had little leaves on ’em. JJ: [That’s right?]. RH: And I don’t know if they had plastic. I think they had plastic later on. JJ: I think we did. RH: Yeah. Yeah. But we were always playing, me and Daisy, and she was blonde. She was blonde. JJ: I think she dyes her hair. RH: Yeah, but she was blonde when she was little. JJ: Well, that might have been -- I think [Myrna?] had more blondish -- RH: Uh-huh, more blonde, but they were light. They had pretty eyes and everything. 32 �JJ: Yeah. Daisy’s hair is more dark [now?]. RH: Uh-huh. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) but she dyes it, though. (inaudible). RH: Mm-hmm, and we used to play together, me and her, and she was fun. She was -- JJ: Yeah, you were telling me (inaudible). RH: She’s fun. I’ll never forget that. I still can see her playing. JJ: [00:54:00] Was this on Bissell, when we lived on Bissell, or --? RH: You know, I think when you lived on Bissell. JJ: Okay. So, you lived on Bissell too. RH: No, I had [Pilar?]. Remember Pilar, that lady? She had her husband, and then he died. JJ: Oh, okay. You were babysitting? RH: She lived on the first floor. (Spanish) [00:54:17]. She was a friend of my family. She knew all the families, and she had no children, so she used to pick me up for the weekend, and I remember playing on Bissell and Wisconsin. Remember, where the train track? But you couldn’t go through the other side. It was closed. You could only go through under by -- JJ: Right, they had that tunnel. RH: -- Mulligan. JJ: They had the tunnel by Mulligan. RH: The tunnel, but not there. Not on that part, on Wisconsin. It was just closed up, and there were two buildings. One on the corner, the bar, the 1800 bar right 33 �there, and then, there was the red brick building ’cause that’s where she lived, [00:55:00] [Tía Pilar?], and she used to pick me up for the weekend, and I used to go and play with the kids in the neighborhood. That’s when Dad would come and get me, and we’d go to your house, like, on a Sunday afternoon. JJ: I know my mother did a lot of work with Father Kathrein too, so maybe your family were connected [in that way?]? RH: Is she still alive? JJ: Yeah, my mother is (inaudible). RH: Wow. God bless her. I remember her house. I still remember it. JJ: And the leaves on the furniture. RH: The furniture. JJ: With leaves. RH: With leaves. I never seen sofas with leaves in my life, and it was a sectional. It was a weird sofa. It had the table already or something on there. JJ: In the middle, yeah. RH: In the middle. It had it in the middle -- JJ: [I remember that?]. RH: -- or something. It was -- JJ: (inaudible). RH: I know we would jump from -- we would go like this on our [00:56:00] arms, like jump, you know, like, twist our legs around. We were little, and I know we would hit it, and turn around, and hit the other -- we would do that, me and Daisy, and your mom used to be yelling, “(Spanish) [00:56:12].” And then, Papi’d stick his 34 �head out, and I used to sit down. My Papi’s like, “You better not be jumping,” and I -- “We’re not jumping,” and Daisy’d go, “We’re not jumping. We’re playing.” And so, growing up, once we got to junior high, which was Arnold, sixth, seventh, and eighth -- when I came out of Newberry, it was only fifth grade, and I came into Newberry at third grade because I was at Lincoln School from kindergarten ’til that summer we moved to Armitage and Orchard from Lincoln Avenue, and we went to Newberry, and I went in third grade. [00:57:00] And, from third grade, we went up to fifth. My brother went first to Arnold. I [was still in?] fifth grade. I was the last one [to stay?] that year, but I walked down Orchard Street, straight down, and my brother went to Arnold. Then, when I went, sixth grade, to Arnold, my brother was already in seventh or eighth grade, and I did sixth grade, and I was very quiet in school. I was very quiet. I did all my work. I had good grades. My father said I had good grades, but, when I got to Arnold, I started getting a little funny, you know, tell jokes and stories, and I felt -- I was a friendly person. I didn’t look trouble for nobody. [00:58:00] I wasn’t a bully. I wasn’t scared of bullies. I wasn’t scared of anybody because I had a grandfather that talked to us, a father that warned us, and I had a brother that was there for me, even though I didn’t need nobody beat up. I was friends with everybody. I had no enemies. The only enemies I had was how I lived with my stepmother, and it wasn’t an enemy. It was a thing that she went through, and I endured it, but I overcame that myself. I started reading very young. We all started reading very young. We read everything. We were taught everything in the school. We paid 35 �attention. We never ditched school. It was impossible to ditch school, [00:59:00] to play hooky, because we lived right there, in the neighborhood. JJ: You lived right in front of the school. RH: I lived across the street. My [friends were like?], “Come on. Let’s ditch school.” I’m like, “[Girl, are you?] crazy? I live across the street. My father’s a cab driver. My grandfather’s out there. My uncle. I’ll be dead by the time --” JJ: (inaudible). RH: We could not ditch school. JJ: The teacher wouldn’t catch you. Your father would catch you in the cab. RH: Everybody. Even if somebody in the neighborhood said, “(Spanish) [00:59:31], Ramón, I saw your daughter.” He goes, “Oh, my God.” JJ: So, the neighborhood kinda watched out for everybody. RH: Everybody, yeah. JJ: Everybody’s kids. RH: Mm-hmm, and the girls, my friends, they had, like, six, seven brothers. I met my brothers when I was 12. I had, like, five. I found out I had more brothers with my last name, my sister and my three brothers, and I was [01:00:00] jubilant. I had brothers. So, their brothers became my brothers, so, altogether, I had 11 brothers. JJ: Big family. (inaudible). RH: So, I used to say, “I’m gonna bring my brother.” But everybody, you know -- so, I think it was -- when I came into Arnold, eighth grade, I changed my name. Rosa was gone. She was dead. I was like, “I hate that name.” [My father’s like?], 36 �“That’s your name. That’s the name you’re gonna stay with. That’s the name that’s gonna go on your tombstone.” And, “I hate that name.” Rosa, ’cause everybody used to say, “Rosa posa, Rosa posa,” and I remember, third grade in Lincoln School, before second grade, when I started reading about Rosa, the little Mexican girl in the potato sack dress, everybody would make fun [01:01:00] of me because of that book, and do you know, José, that I still have that book? I stole it. I said, “Ain’t nobody’s gonna read this book ever again,” and I still have it, and it’s a book that said “Rosa.” The book is Rosa, and it’s the little Mexican girl in a potato sack dress, and I hated that book, and everybody’s like, “Oh, Rosa, Rosa,” and I’m like, “Oh, why --” So, one day, I stole that book. I took it with me, and I still have it. I still have that book. I said, “Nobody’s gonna ever read this book again, ever again.” So, when I got into Arnold, I took my sister’s name. I met my sister, [Linda?], so I said, “You know what? I like Rosalind Russell. I like that name, so I’m gonna put myself Rosalind.” [01:02:00] And, every time I would put my homework or my (inaudible), my teachers would scratch it out with a red pen, and I still would write it, and still would write it, and still would write it until, legally, I kept it. So, now, it’s my alias now. I can’t use it, like, in a bank account or sign checks, but I went to school under that name, so that’s what’s -- Rosalind Hernández. And so, when I came back from eighth grade, when I went to eighth grade, I was Rosalind, and Rosa was gone. She was gone. People’d say, “Do you have a sister named Rosa?” I’m like, “Yeah. I’m her sister, Rosalind.” People thought I was two people ’cause we had imaginary -- we were [full?]. We had imaginations and stuff. So, the 37 �neighborhood, like you said, started getting really [01:03:00] [caution?]. We started going into high school and that, junior high and high school. The neighborhood was getting -- it wasn’t falling apart, but it was getting kind of -things you hear, you know. Things you hear. JJ: So, there was more crime, or --? RH: It was starting to get more crime. JJ: So, in the beginning, it wasn’t that -- there weren’t that many gangs? RH: You could walk anywhere. Anywhere. You could walk anywhere, but -- JJ: And this was when there were a lot of Latinos there. RH: A lot of Latinos. JJ: Like, you could walk anywhere. RH: And, mainly, it wasn’t that bad because, like I said, most of the friends that I had, they had a lot of brothers. So, when I would go to see my friend on Fremont Street to pick her up for school, [Olga?], Olga [Santos?], she had, like, four brothers, or Nieves, [01:04:00] they had, like, eight brothers. So, everywhere you walked, they would go, “Hey, what are you doin’ over here?” And we used to say, “None of your business.” And they’d go, “Hey, don’t talk to me like that, you little shrimp.” They used to call us shrimps. “You little shrimps.” And I’m like, “I don’t care. You’re not my brother. You’re not my brother.” And then, their sister, I had to be nice to them because they wouldn’t want me hanging with their sister. So, the brothers were protective of all the girls, of their friends, their sisters. So, you know -- JJ: So, there was just a common respect at that time -- 38 �RH: A respect, yes. JJ: -- for -- RH: Like, we didn’t get in nobody’s car we didn’t know. We didn’t do that. JJ: And everybody knew each other. RH: We all knew each other, but my father was a person that raised us on our guard. JJ: So, when did it start going down? About what year? Do you [remember?]? RH: Excuse me? JJ: About what year did it start going down? RH: [01:05:00] 1976, ’77. JJ: Around that time is when it down completely, the neighborhood? RH: People started movin’ out of the neighborhood. They wanted to take their -- I don’t know. They all moved west. I lived on Sheffield and Armitage until 1978. JJ: ’78? RH: 1978. By then, I had three children. I had them in a youth center. Across the street, there was a Chicago Youth Center on Sheffield. 1930. I lived 1930 North Sheffield, and there was a youth center across the street, so I had my kids in the youth center, and I went to DePaul. I took the train, and then I’d go to school, and then I’d come back. JJ: So, you went to school at DePaul. RH: I went to Truman [01:06:00] in 1978, and then I went to DePaul in 1979. JJ: This is the college, DePaul University? RH: Yes, right there. DePaul University. Lincoln Park campus. JJ: Now, did you --? 39 �RH: I had one class in the Lewis and Clark. JJ: Oh, the Lewis and Clark. RH: Yeah. JJ: [But then?] you graduated? RH: No, I was an undergraduate. JJ: An undergraduate. RH: I just went for liberal arts, and I went for -- I took undergraduate. I was starting already to go -- but I was accepted into DePaul University, and, even though I came out with Cs, but I tried because I had three kids, and I didn’t have a nursery for them at the time, until I did move on Sheffield at the end. But, you know, I got (inaudible) said you get your credits together. You do something, and you stop, and I went back, and I got all my stuff, what I needed. [I just have?], like, four and a half credits. That’s all, but it was just a term [01:07:00] that I went. I went the winter and spring. I went two terms. JJ: Okay, two terms. RH: I went two terms, which was 1,100 dollars apiece. And then, I had my books. I still have my books. I got my books still. I went liberal arts [skills?]. Liberal arts, I went to [skills, behavior skills?]. I took philosophy and religion, and I had Psychology 101. No, I had it in Truman, Psychology 101. I was taking Psychology 102 at DePaul. That was to help me raise my kids. I didn’t raise my kids beating my children. Well, they said I was Hitler, but, you know, I was like -I did the same rearing my father did on me. There was no [01:08:00] beating. My kids didn’t suffer. My girls, I raised my kids because of the rearing -- the 40 �neighborhood that I come from. I get insulted when people tell me, “Oh, you’re from Humboldt Park.” I get upset. I’m not from Humboldt Park. “Oh, but you’re Puerto Rican. You don’t have the Puerto Rican [flag?].” I’m like, “No, no, no, no, no. I’m not from Humboldt Park. I come from the Lincoln Park area.” It’s different, you know. We have a difference. I can tell by the manners, the way they speak. See, we don’t speak like that. We don’t speak like that. You see how I speak? You see, there’s no division, culture, in me because I can tell, the way they were educated, that area. I speak -- [01:09:00] that’s how we all speak. JJ: Okay. [Community type?] at that time. Yeah, that community came later. Humboldt Park came later. RH: Yeah. The neighborhood wasn’t bad at all because, like I said, we had the Young Lords. Then, later on, we had the Kings. I was sent to a boarding school, you see, ’cause my father didn’t want me falling in the hands -- the wrong places. My father saw I was a little exploring thing. I just smoke. I never drank. I didn’t drink ’til I was 24. I didn’t take drugs, but I had something in me that I was just not -- I wanted a freedom. And so, I was sent to a boarding [01:10:00] school in Omaha, Nebraska for almost two years. When I graduated from eighth grade, I left that same weekend. I came back. I started junior high. I started junior high. I lived with this lady that -- I befriended her because I did a lot of babysitting and walking dogs, and she became like my foster mother, so I lived with her on Burling, right in front of Arnold, and she did a lot of community too. Her name was [Mamie Govilla?]. You remember Mamie Govilla? JJ: I don’t (inaudible). 41 �RH: She worked for [Danny O’Brian?]. She was his secretary. JJ: (inaudible). RH: The alderman. I lived with her. And, there, I learned antiques. She was an antique collector, [01:11:00] and I wrote a lot of stuff. I did a lot of stuff in Waller that -- you know, I used to go down and smoke cigarettes with Mr. [Cusack?] and Mr. [Tamika?] ’cause they were good friends. JJ: I remember them. I remember them, yeah. RH: Me and Mr. Tamika. On a break, I used to go see Mr. Tamika, and we used to smoke cigarettes, puffing. Then, we quit. We tried everything. Me and Mr. Tamika, you know. We tried everything to quit. It was so funny. I went down from Tareytons, to Viceroys, to [True Blue?]. Those were my cigarettes, True Blue, the ones you couldn’t smoke nothing. You think you’re smoking, and you don’t smoke nothing. Well, yeah. I was a smoker. I was a (inaudible) girl. I didn’t fight. I didn’t like nobody touching me. [01:12:00] I grew up a little promiscuous. I started being a little promiscuous at the age of, you know, 15, but that was my first love, [Nick Reyes?], and I ended up having a daughter by him. He went in the Army, 1973. That was it. That’s what happened to me. But, you know -- JJ: Any last thoughts that -- you know, so we can kind of -- RH: Yeah. JJ: What about the community? How did you feel that it’s changed completely? I mean -- 42 �RH: It has changed, but, coming from that neighborhood, going down the streets, if [01:13:00] you have a memory instilled in your mind, and you can still close your eyes and remember how it looked before. That’s the way I see it. I could never go there when I had my kids because I didn’t really talk too much about my kids, how I grew up. I only talked about my brother and my dad. There was no little sister. I excluded them, and there was no stepmother. I left her out. So, as my kids were growing up, I would go in the neighborhood, and, right when we turned on from Clybourn into Racine into Armitage, I used to feel like a pit in my stomach, like I was gonna be so emotional [01:14:00] just driving on the bus or driving down the street and looking at every story in the neighborhood. At first, I was very emotional going down there, but, now, my daughter’s lived in that neighborhood, so, now, I’ve -- since she was 20, my daughter. She lived on Larrabee and Armitage, and she loved the neighborhood. She comes from that neighborhood, and I got used to it. When [Lolly?], my granddaughter, started Newberry school and I had to go pick her up, I was a mess in the school because I still pictured Ms. [Peterson?] banging somebody against the locker, someone throwing up in the hall, and they put that [01:15:00] [pieces in there?], whatever that was. That made it even more disgusting. And I can still see myself walking in the hallway in Newberry, and my granddaughter would say, “That’s okay, Grandma. You’ll be okay.” I’m like, “Sorry. I just can’t go in there. I just can’t. You don’t know. It’s very emotional for me.” She goes, “I know, Grandma.” And, when she graduated, I was in the hall, see, because my granddaughter’s Alderman Robert Shaw’s granddaughter [with?] the alderman. Robert Shaw’s. 43 �That’s my son-in-law, [John?], (Spanish) [01:15:44] in the South Side 13 years ago. JJ: He’s pretty well known, Robert Shaw, in Chicago. RH: Robert, yeah. That’s my granddaughter’s grandfather. So, we went to graduation, and they said, “Can someone stand up from [01:16:00] those -- do we have any Newberry alumnis?” And my daughter and my grand-- looked at me, and I’m like -- I felt so proud. But, yeah, it was kinda funny because I’d go pick up Lolly, and, “I just can’t go in there. Just come out.” [And, sometimes?], it’d be cold, or they’re in the assembly, or something, and, “Oh, I have to go in there.” Because I would come out overwhelmed. “Oh, my God. I can’t believe it. Look it, Lolly. This was the assembly that I used to sing in the choir,” ’cause I was in the Newberry Choir. I was -- original Newberry Choir. “Yes, I know, Grandma. I know. You told me that, Grandma.” (inaudible). The gymnasium was our [01:17:00] lunch room, but we never ate lunch, so we had to go home. And that’s when things started happening, around that time. Kids would get hit by cars. We had some girl get abducted one time from that neighborhood. I know the Young Lords were looking for her too, and I remember that, and the time that Martin Luther King -- we were in school. I was in Newberry. ’68, I was in Newberry School, and, when Martin Luther King got shot, it was gettin’ really smoky. I remember it was very smoky. JJ: [I think it ran out?]. RH: But -- JJ: (inaudible). 44 �RH: Did I talk too much? JJ: No, no, no, no. You did fine, but I think it’s -- I was supposed to stop anyway. RH: Okay. JJ: (inaudible). RH: But, no, you want to talk more, [01:18:00] I got more stuff. It’s just, like I said, you know, I have -- JJ: For sure, we got to get the -- END OF VIDEO FILE 45 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9da818a4fef9dde24258818d62b48e43.mp4 e500520bf8a0826da54f5f08386816ba Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Rosa Meria Hernández vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Hernandez_Rosa Title A name given to the resource Rosa Meria Hernández video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hernández, Rosa Description An account of the resource Rosa M. Hernández grew up on Orchard Street in Chicago. Like many of the Puerto Rican women of that era, she grew up sheltered while boys were free to stay out late and roam the streets. Ms. Hernández was the neighborhood store errand girl, it was a way to be free and visit with her friends and neighbors. Down the street at Burling and Armitage, the Black Eagles, Paragons, Flaming Arrows, Imperial Aces, Continentals, Trojans and Young Lords would hang out daily until the early hours of the morning, drinking and talking. Ms. Hernández knew everyone of importance in the neighborhood from youth to adults. She recalls how everyone in the neighborhood watched out for each other and that even the alleged gangs were polite and courteous to their neighbors. Her oral history provides much insight into everyday life in Lincoln Park during that significant era in the early to mid-1960s for the Puerto Rican community. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-28 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fb36423bafb608528ed87b3edc049789.pdf 8bb8102fad436d3dee31d287bf8e56c1 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: David Hernández Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/29/2012 Biography and Description David Hernández was born in Cidra, Puerto Rico and arrived in Chicago in 1955. He has volunteered with the Young Lords in many activities and events. But his primary community work has been with La Gente, an organization he founded that worked with Latinos and the poor of Lakeview. Originally the group was called the Latin Eagles Organization because he was working the Commission of Youth Welfare for the City of Chicago and the Latin Eagles were a serious presence in the neighborhood where he was assigned. Like the Young Lords, La Gente also had a Breakfast for Children Program. The group stood with the Young Lords for affordable housing and against Mayor Richard J. Daley’s displacement of Puerto Ricans from the lakefront and near downtown areas of the city. Mr. Hernández has been called the unofficial, “Poet Laureate of Chicago.” He blends folk, jazz, and Afro – Latin music that chronicles the pedestrian walking down Chicago’s streets. One of his famous poems is called “La Armitage” and features the neighborhood of Lincoln Park and several prominent Young Lords. For several years he ran El Taller, a community based workshop. He also founded Street Sounds in 1971. Mr. Hernández performed at Harold Washington’s mayoral inauguration in 1977 and at his funeral. He also performed in Humboldt Park for the Young Lords and at their 40th Anniversary in 2008. Mr. Hernández has taught poetry workshops for the Uptown Community Clinic, the Chicago Public Schools, and community arts programs like Gallery Humboldt Park. His first books of poetry, Despertando/Waking Up and Rooftop �Piper were published in 1971. He followed with Collected Words for Dirty Shelf (1973), Satin City Lullaby (1989), and Elvis is Dead but at Least He Isn’t Gaining Any Weight (1995), and The Urban Poems (2004). Mr. Hernández also starred in a movie, “David Hernandez and Street Sounds” and recorded an album by the same name. His poem, “Immigrants/Liquid Thoughts” was included on the audio anthology, “A Snake in the Heart: Poems and Music by Chicago Spoken Word Performers” (1994). Today, David Hernández lives in Wicker Park, continues to be active in the community, and to collaborate with the Young Lords. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, so if you can give me your name, and where you were born, and your date of birth, and that -- (inaudible). (laughter) DAVID HERNÁNDEZ: Yeah, my name is David Hernández, and I was born on May 1, 1946 that means that I’m 65 years old. I came to Chicago from Puerto Rico, a little town called Cidra, back in 1955. And my parents came over here because there were a lot of job offers at that time. A lot of these little factories in Chicago, a lot of jobs for Puerto Ricans, and specifically they wanted Puerto Ricans over here. So my whole family, uncles, and aunts, and all of that, they all worked in these small factories. So that was back in 1955, and I was nine years old when I came here. JJ: Now, do you remember what part of the city you came from at the time [00:01:00] or to first? DH: That I came to? Yeah, I lived on Armitage Street. Yeah, Clark and Armitage at that time. And then we moved a little further -- JJ: Do you remember what street or anything like that? DH: Well, it’s Clark and Armitage. There’s a big high rise building right there now. And that was right next to the park, Lincoln Park. And so a lot of Puerto Ricans lived in that whole area right there. And what they call Old Town, at that time, I lived on Clark and Wisconsin which was what they call Old Town right now. So we were all over the place around there, the Old Town area and the Lincoln Park area. 1 �JJ: So you’re saying you remember at nine years old -- you should remember some of it. DH: Oh, yeah. JJ: What was it like at that time? I mean what type of -- DH: [00:02:00] It was a working, poor-class neighborhood. The apartment that I lived in, I lived in what’s known a cold water flat at first. It was in the basement. (laughter) My family was -- there were four -- JJ: Why did they call it cold water flat in our neighborhood? Why did they call it that? DH: ’Cause there was no heated water, (laughter) so they called it cold water flat. It was cheap. And we had to take baths by heating up water, so I remember that. And it was really small. What was going on is that a lot of these buildings around there were being subdivided, and they were cramming as many Puerto Rican families as they could in these places. Really small. Tiny. JJ: [00:03:00] So when they’re subdivided, what do you mean? DH: At one time, these apartments used to be really big. Subdivided is that they would put a wall in the middle somewhere and fix it up so that there were two entrances. And then where there used to be one family, now they could fit two families, sometimes three families. So these were cramped, small places that we lived in at the very beginning. And so, you know, it was -- JJ: Was your family big, like how many? DH: I have three brothers and one sister, so there were six of us living in an area that was maybe what they call a studio apartment today. All of us lived there. We used to sleep in the same -- you know, two to a bed. The little one used to sleep 2 �on a mattress on the floor every night. [00:04:00] So this was the kind of thing that was going -- that we lived on. My uncles and aunts were in the same situation. Everybody around there lived in small places. They were roachinfested, a lot of rats and all of that. The landlords never came around, they just primarily left us. They didn’t fix anything. Everything had to be fixed by us or else it wouldn’t get done. At that point, we didn’t know, but everything was painted with that lead paint. So later on, as kids were being born and all that, some of them were mentally -- they were retarded, basically, because of those paint chips, and the fumes, and everything that was going on -- the dust that was coming in. So it was way different than what it is now, [00:05:00] that whole area. A lot of old buildings, red brick buildings, and no stores hardly around there. It was just one big long street with a lot of buildings. That’s what I remember. The hallways were always dark. And that’s how my parents lived for a long time. I always wondered why my parents were always tired, and part of the reason was that they would stay up night so they could flick the cockroaches off our faces as we were sleeping. They had to go to work, and then at night they have to be night guards against the cucarachas. (laughter) JJ: A lot of roaches. DH: Yeah, a lot. But we were a community, and a lot of families really stuck together -- my aunts, and my uncles, [00:06:00] and all of that. And so there was a lightness to it. I mean we had these big parties and -- JJ: So were other Puerto Rican families bringing their families, too? So your family came with a lot of other aunts, and uncles, and all that? 3 �DH: Right. Right. JJ: And it was also happening in that area? DH: Yeah. JJ: ’Cause you said (inaudible) -- DH: My grandmother was the first who came, and she lived on Halsted and Armitage in that big corner building which is still there. And you can’t touch it today. I don’t know, it’s a condo thing. But that’s where they used to live because that place was really full of our people. My grandmother was the first one to come. She came, I think, in ’48. Yeah, 1948. She lived there for a long time. JJ: Why did she come from Puerto Rico? DH: Better life. The small factories weren’t just cutting sheet metal and all that, they also had a lot sewing factories, and so she was a [00:07:00] seamstress, making baby clothes in a baby factory. So that’s why she came. JJ: She was a seamstress in Puerto Rico, too, then? DH: Yeah, right. JJ: So she actually knew a skill. DH: Right. Yeah, she brought that skill over here back in ’48. So she came first, and then a few of my uncles. JJ: And she came to Armitage and Halsted or to another place? DH: Straight to Halsted and Armitage. JJ: Straight to Halsted and Armitage in ’48. DH: Nineteen forty-eight, there were already Puerto Ricans here. (laughter) JJ: On Halsted and Armitage, okay. (inaudible) 4 �DH: Yeah, right. So that whole area was there. Then my uncles settled in -- and they came in the ’50s, and we were -- I think my family was about the last one to come in into Chicago and that was in ’55. So there was a big family. [00:08:00] My grandmother had like, I don’t know, 10 kids because at that time, you had big families. My friend, [George Perez?], he has 17 brothers and sisters ’cause they were big families. (laughs) JJ: Where did he live? DH: He lived right next door to me. (laughs) JJ: (inaudible) apartments. DH: Right. And his apartment was bigger because they had to hold 17 people in there. So somehow or other there was a sense of that community. And the church was around, the Catholic church was around. We weren’t Catholic, we went to the Protestant church. JJ: What denomination? DH: I think it was Methodist. JJ: Methodist? DH: Yeah, Methodist ’cause they were doing a lot of outreach work and all of that. JJ: (inaudible). DH: So we were pretty active in that in those [00:09:00] -- we were like -- JJ: You were pretty active? What do you mean active? DH: The church, at that time, was changing because the neighborhood -- it used to be like there was a lot of Germans and Italians around there, and some African Americans, but not too much. I think it was probably the main ethnics which had 5 �German, Irish, and Italians, you know? Italiano. And so they were in the process of being moved out or moving out. And so -JJ: Was it a natural movement out or they decided to move out? DH: They were already moving out of the city, basically. They had improved their lot. I’m quite sure that they went through a lot of stuff, too, but they were already [00:10:00] in a place where they could do that, they could afford to move out. They were the ones that owned some of the stores around there. So they were moving out to the burbs, or starting to move out to the burbs, because the suburban explosion was happening. So some of them moved out there. The church that we started going to, we were the first of the Latino families to come in. JJ: You remember where that was at? DH: I can’t remember. JJ: ’Cause I know they had some Methodist on Larrabee and something. DH: It was around Larrabee. The Ideal Theatre was around there. The Ideal Theater was -- JJ: I remember (inaudible). Close to (inaudible). DH: Yeah. So that whole area was, of course, like that, you know? Yeah, so that’s what happened. [00:11:00] The churches were changing because the Latino families were coming in and all that. That’s what was going on. So the services started being in Spanish and all that. JJ: In the Methodist and the Catholic? 6 �DH: Yeah, the Catholic, too. Yeah, the Catholic, too. And you could see that because of the other -- as I said, the other ethnics were moving out. So that population in the churches was changing. But that became our social thing. JJ: What do you mean? What kind (inaudible)? DH: Well, that’s where a lot of families, that’s where they met. There wasn’t any place for them to go. My family and a lot of the families just worked, and they were tired all day, and then they would go to services at night or whatever was going on in the church. They had dinners and all that. But the churches were also helping us because we were poor. We were the poor people. [00:12:00] I remember during Christmas that I would get Christmas packages, and it didn’t have my name on it, it would just say, “Boy, 9.” “Girl, 12.” “Oh, I’m boy.” I remember that real vividly. Then they would come to me later, they were all, “These were donated by the richer parishioners.” (laughs) So that’s what I grew up with, all these things. We were poor and all that, pero como Puerto Rican there was a sense of tightness of community that was really going on. I’ll give you an example. When somebody died, everybody would chip in for the funeral expenses. For the holidays and all of that, everybody would have these big parties, and we even [00:13:00] cooked a pig in the bathtub. (laughter) We didn’t know. I remember a lot of my uncles drinking all this Pabst Blue Ribbon beer. All the adults drank Pabst Blue Ribbon beer. When they started making a little money, they would buy a new car every year that they could -- Studebakers. That’s what they had in those days. And I went to school. My older brother went to Waller High School which is now called Lincoln Park High School, it’s a real 7 �fancy school now. And I went Arnold School which was a little grammar school right next door. JJ: How was Arnold at that time? What do you remember of Arnold? DH: Arnold and [LaSalle?]? JJ: [00:14:00] And LaSalle School you went to? DH: Yeah, LaSalle School. At that time, when I was going in there, it was kind of diverse. You still had the German kids, and the Italian, and the Irish, and all that. You had those, and it wasn’t too bad. Although there was tension, you know -- I ran a lot, I got chased a lot. (laughter) If you went by the Italian neighborhood, forget it. You know you’re going to get your ass kicked or you know that you were gonna to get chased, so I knew how to run and I knew -- you know, we learned what our boundaries were, you know what I’m saying? We knew that if you went this way, it might be dangerous, so you had to be careful which way you crossed and all of that. JJ: And this is when you were living near the park? DH: By the park, right. JJ: [00:15:00] Was there white gangs or just white youth? DH: Yeah, white gangs. JJ: They were chasing the Latinos? DH: Right because the thing about us is that -- JJ: And you weren’t in a gang at that time? DH: No. JJ: You were just Puerto Rican, and they were just chasing you. 8 �DH: They were just chasing us. Right. There wasn’t a gang at that time. The gangs came later on, and it was kind of, I think, for protection. It was really protecting ourselves and all of that. We were getting chased a lot. Part of the thing was the racism that existed. The ethnics and all that, like I said, the Irish, the Italians, and the Germans, and whatever -- and the Italians were the ones that would first called spic. It wasn’t us, [00:16:00] but we inherited that word. These were lightskinned Europeans most of them, but the Italians were a little darker, and it took them a long time to get accepted. But when we came, we had this African Caribbean look to us and all that, and they didn’t know what the hell to make of us because we were darker-skinned and so forth, and really mixed, it confused the hell of out of them ’cause some of us were real light-skinned. Like I got cousins that were red-haired and freckled face, and I have cousins that had really (Spanish) kinky hair like I had and all that. So that’s when we were introduced to racism and all that. [00:17:00] I couldn’t get a haircut at a regular barber shop because they said, “We don’t do your type of hair.” I remember that. So we had to go and get our hair cut by [Don Benjamin?] who was our community barber shop. He didn’t have a license, but he did it in his basement or whatever -- in the back, somewhat of a garage. We learned to survive with that. That was our sense of neighborhood. The little stores, and there was [Vicente’s?] store which was really like a bodega, he was one of the first ones to own a store. JJ: Do you know where that was located or no? 9 �DH: That was around Larrabee. Larrabee and Webster. Webster and Lincoln and Larrabee, right there. That whole area was -- it’s where we lived. Some of my uncles moved further [00:18:00] west. JJ: When did they start moving west? DH: About a couple of years later. JJ: Fifty-seven? DH: Yeah, ’57 and all that. But they had been here already, so they were making a little bit more money, so they were able to afford -- what we did was we moved to 626 West Webster. That’s by what they call Oz Park now. And that was all Puerto Ricans around there. It used to be a Swedish neighborhood ’cause they still had the Swedish hall or whatever it was. JJ: When you say all Puerto Rican, 60 percent? DH: I would say about 70 percent. Again, families, big families, and we all kind of knew each other. I’ll give you an example. A few of my aunts, we all lived in the same -- there was a house here -- [00:19:00] because we were able to afford a little bit more -- and it was these old wooden houses. So they were bigger and all that. So we took up about three or four of those houses with just my family -cousins, and uncles, and all that -- and friends like George Perez and all that. And a couple of friends who were -- I had a friend whose name was [Randy, yeah?], he was German. And he had blond hair, blue eyes, and he was a good kid. His family accepted what was going on and all that. So it wasn’t total -- you know, just being alienated by everybody. But we were all basically in the same boat. It was like a class thing at that time, you know? Struggling to make it 10 �better and so forth. So this was on Webster Street, 626 West Webster, [00:20:00] and my grandmother still lived on Halsted. She lived there all of her life, Halsted and Armitage, in that same building. She lived there from ’48 until, I don’t know, sixty-something when she went back to Puerto Rico. JJ: What was her name? DH: Her name was Juana, [Tonya?] Juana everybody called her. And she liked to have a shot of rum every morning, and she smoked a cigar -- handmade cigar from -- they used to bring them in and [Don Filomeno?] used to make them [right there?]. Illegally, but -- JJ: Did they make cigars in Cidra? Was that a tobacco area? DH: Yeah, Cidra, my hometown. I remember some of the things that were in Cidra. And [Don Filomeno?] was the guy who made the cigars. And he lived right next door, and he had this little -- ’cause in my hometown, there were three things [00:21:00] that were around there in terms of agriculture: sugar cane, tobacco, and -- what’s the last one? Coffee. Coffee, they used to grow coffee. Those were the three main products that were coming out of Cidra at that time. JJ: Did people own farms there or did they work on the farms? DH: My grandfather and a lot of my family, when they were in Puerto Rico, they were agriculture. My dad worked in the cane fields and all that. He was a truck driver, he would bring in the cane and all that. But what happened was that the factories basically took over everything, so everything got industrialized, so there were no jobs for people that had an agricultural background. It was changing. I 11 �think that was when [00:22:00] Operation Bootstrap came in where the factories JJ: The ’40s. DH: Right, yeah. Well, the factories came in, and they were tax-free for seven years or whatever, and so they industrialized everything including (inaudible) aspect of it. Where my uncles and my family used to have little cane fields or growing coffee and all of that, these were taken over by the big corporations, and so then you had to work for them. So there were no jobs. It got harder and harder. And the cities didn’t have any jobs. Everything was being industrialized. So that’s why there was this big migration to Chicago -- specifically Chicago -- and they were encouraging the workers here -- the factory owners here and everybody was encouraging for Puerto Ricans to come over here. I mean there were ads in Puerto Rico, [00:23:00] in [el periódico?], in the newspapers in Puerto Rico talking about that they would pay your fare over here, set you up in an apartment and all of that. And those apartments that were in the ads, they looked really nice, but when we came here, (laughter) man, they didn’t look so good. But it was being encouraged because they had a lot of unskilled labor jobs at that time, what they called. And these were dangerous jobs. I had two of my uncles whose fingers were cut off. So you see a lot of old Puerto Ricans missing one finger and you know that they worked for these small factories and all that. Stewart-Warner was a big employer. This place right here, where I live now which is a loft space, these are old factories. Two of my uncles worked here. (laughs) 12 �JJ: What is the name of this factory? DH: I forgot what the name of it was. [00:24:00] Hein something -- or Hendrickson. All of these things that you see are called loft spaces today are really old factories. That’s how small they were, but a lot of Puerto Ricans worked in these places. JJ: You said there were like poetry people, or art -- culture people. DH: What we did is we bought three factories, old factories, these. There’s three of them in this complex, and we renovated them. Every one us, and it’s only artists. What we did is every one of us, we chipped in. This was around 10 years ago. We chipped in $3,000 each, and we bought them because we got tired -- not only as a Puerto Rican being moved out and gentrified, but as an artist, the same thing. [00:25:00] Artists go where it’s cheap, where the rent is cheap and all that, and then what follows is we make it pretty or attractive, and we do shows and that attracts, and boom, before you know it, we get moved out because the realty people come and that’s a prime area right now. I saw this happen in Old Town when we were there. I saw artists moving in and all that, and I saw a little theater space going up there called Second City. (laughs) I saw the storefront. I used to get coffee for those guys, they would send me to go get coffee for them. And so I saw that, and a few years later, boom. Got commercialized. And everybody, including the artists, got moved out. So not only did I get moved out as a Puerto Rican, low-income and all that, but I got moved out also as an artist. So this place here is a result of gentrification. [00:26:00] What they call Wicker Park now 13 �on Milwaukee and Damen North Avenue, that used to be artists a few years ago, and then it got commercialized because -JJ: Wasn’t that also a Puerto Rican community, too? DH: Yeah, before that, it used to be a Puerto Rican community. The whole thing around here was Puerto Ricans. Again, a few of my cousins lived over there on Damen North and all that. And so I remember my friends, [Eddie?], (inaudible), and some of them, we all grew up there, they all grew up around there. So they got moved out. At first, they were living well with the artists who could afford it in the little storefront. The artists were encouraged to move over there. That was a real conscious thing done by the realty people, bring in the artists. Then in a few years, boom. It got gentrified. You go over there now, you can’t touch that area. [00:27:00] You cannot touch it rent-wise. So we got moved out not only as Puerto Ricans, but as artists, also. That’s been the history of artists. We move into a neighborhood, and then we get commercialized out and gentrified. We got this building here with the idea that we were not going to get moved out again. So we all chipped in, bought the building, and we got the city to subsidize us. Our argument was that we are low-income to moderate-income people and therefore we should get subsidized, and they did. They subsidized the hell out of it. So we bought the building, we prettied it up, Mayor Daley came by, at that time, and he loved it. [00:28:00] We were a case study. (laughs) But here’s the idea. We all own our own units, and they’re beautiful. We had an architect come in and all that. We all own our own units, and we got them cheap. But the thing is we can’t sell at the market price. In other words, we can’t buy here and then 14 �make a killing and then -- sell it and make a killing on it. We can only sell a little bit more for the improvements -- whatever improvements we got, not to make a lot of money. And if we sell, we have to sell it to another artist or a family that’s low to moderate income. That way we don’t we get gentrified. That way we’re not going to have a lot of rich realty people coming here and trying to buy us out. JJ: So that concept came because when you were younger you were also [00:29:00] involved in organizing, too, with -- what was the name of the organization that you had? DH: The name of the organization that I had was called La Gente which means The People. And this is when I was younger. JJ: They were located where? DH: They were on Halsted and Roscoe. Halsted and Roscoe Street just a little north of Lincoln Park area. Just a little north of there. Lincoln Park was around Halsted and Armitage, Halsted and Lincoln Avenue, that whole area. We were just a little north of there. But they called it Lakeview area. But the same thing, that whole area was being gentrified. JJ: What was that area like in terms of population? Were there a lot of Puerto Ricans there, too? DH: Yeah. When we got moved out of Old Town and that whole area around there, some of us went west as far as Humboldt Park. [00:30:00] Some of us went north in the Lakeview and Uptown area, and that’s where we went to, we moved to the Lakeview area right around Belmont, Halsted. Yeah, that’s basically kind of like the dividing line that I remember. So from there -- 15 �JJ: Clark Street is also there, too. DH: Right. Clark Street. JJ: You were following Clark. DH: Right. Going up north on Clark Street. Thank God we didn’t go east because now we’d be at the lake drowned by now. (laughter) So that’s what happened. And it was a pattern -- boom, boom, boom, boom. We kept getting moved out. But part of the reason was -- one thing was that some of the adults, some of our parents and all that, always had the idea of going back to Puerto Rico. They were going to make money here and move back. [00:31:00] Twenty years in, they’re still waiting, (laughter) and they got stuck here. So they didn’t really invest in terms of buying. So they were at the mercy of these landlords and realty, and that’s why we kept moving around. That’s why I went to one, two, three, about four different schools because one apartment, the rent would go up and we had to move out again, you know, keep going. So that was the issue. So when I was living around Halsted and Roscoe in the Lakeview area, there was -- this was ’60s, so I learned -- Saul Alinksy, the organizer, he had a lot of influence on a lot of us. And so I learned how to organize. A whole bunch of us young people learned how to organize and how to create tenant’s unions to help our people and the people in that area, [00:32:00] meaning that hold back the rent because a slum lord didn’t fix the pipes, or didn’t give us heat in the winter because we couldn’t afford the rent that month or whatever, so they would cut off the heat or didn’t fix things. And again, roach and rat infested and all that. They just didn’t give a damn. And so we learned how to organize, and form tenant’s 16 �unions, and go in there and hold the rent until things got fixed. And we learned how to do the publicity game. Bring in the newspapers, bring in whatever just to shame these landlords. So it became a big issue. JJ: So La Gente was doing this? DH: Yeah. What happened was this -- I used to be a youth worker [00:33:00] at that time. I had graduated from Lake View High School and I was going to Wright City College, and so I got a part-time job as a youth worker, and I worked for Jane Addams Center. So I was supposed to work with the gangs. At that time, the gangs were like the Eagles, the Latin Eagles and all that. In that area, there was the Aristocrats which was the last stronghold of the Irish. (laughter) And so I used to do that. And so with the Latin Eagles and all that. And we really did a great job at keeping things cool and all that because we’re close to them, we’re from the streets. We knew how to identify with them and they trusted us and that was the thing. But a lot of changes were going on. These were the ’60s, so things were getting politicized more. [00:34:00] People’s consciousness was being raised. And so south of us in the Lincoln Park area, there’s a group called the Young Lords. They started an organization, they started organizing there, and that influenced us. A little further up north, the same thing. It was trickling up. Again, the sense of community. JJ: What sort of things influenced the -- DH: The way that they were working with the community, the way that they were organizing. As a model, I think they used the Black Panther Party and all of that. And in terms of setting up free food pantries, the free breakfast programs and all 17 �of that, these were models that we also used. Advocating for poor people in the welfare office, we learned how to do that from the Young Lords. [00:35:00] We learned the people at the welfare office, they have to be there all day, so we would go over there with pots of rice and beans and feed the people (laughter) and advocate for the welfare people because they were -- the people on welfare that were there because these welfare offices, they were abusive. They made everybody that needed money or needed help, they made them feel bad. They made them wait all day there, and shame them. And these workers, they just treated them bad, and so that’s why. And at the same time, we learned that you could form unions, organize for the welfare recipients. So the welfare recipients started learning [00:36:00] all of that. They became advocates. And so that’s what we were doing. Doing tenant’s unions, forming tenant’s unions around there. Basically the same thing because, again, this community organizing became a real thing for me. JJ: Who were some of the people that were working with you at that time? What were some of their names? I remember [Americo?] or something like that. Was it -- DH: Americo. Americo Rodriguez was there. (inaudible) Ramirez was there. [Elba?] -- I forgot her last name. There was a whole bunch of us. A couple of priests, Father [Lizek?] and I forgot the other one. They were pretty radical. And so they all worked with us. [Sally Contreras?] was another one. She took on the telephone [00:37:00] company. JJ: What was that? What did she do? 18 �DH: Well, what she did is that they weren’t hiring enough Latinos, Puerto Ricans in the telephone company. So she did some research and found out that a lot of Puerto Ricans were making long distance phone calls all the way to Puerto Rico and that they were making money off of us. So she threatened them with boycott. They started saying, “If you don’t hire more people, we’re going to boycott you.” And I’ll be damned if it didn’t work. And she brought a whole group of people. JJ: Sally Contreras? DH: Sally Contreras. She brought a whole bunch of people to the telephone company and said, “If you don’t hire us, more Latinos, more Puerto Ricans, we will boycott.” And that was a threat, and it worked. It really worked. More Latinos started [00:38:00] being hired and all that. JJ: Did you work with any other groups in Lakeview? DH: What happened with me was that I was working with the Eagles. And the police thought that I was teaching them -- well, I was -- but what happened was that the Civil Liberties Union, they had a little booklet about your rights. And at the playground, the Eagles and some of the other street clubs, I gave them copies of this, little manuals on learning their rights if they were arrested and all that. And I’ll be damned, they picked it up. That’s what was going on. JJ: So if they were arrested not to say anything and -- DH: Right. Say, “Why are you arresting me?” And they would ask why. And the police didn’t like this. So they thought that I was some kind of a radical. So they set it up so that I [00:39:00] would get beaten get up by them. They wanted to kill 19 �me. They set it up, they made an arrest and all of that the night I went out there to see what I could do. Before I know it, I was surrounded by police. JJ: You were beaten up? DH: Yeah, I was beaten up, they were trying to open my hand and put a gun in it. I knew what time what was. That was a [drop?] gun, and one of them was gonna do me fatal (laughs) injury. But I didn’t open. But after that, I was so upset that I quit. I quit working and I just became an organizer. So the Latin Eagles became the Latin Eagle Organization. Again, using the Young Lords as an example. And it was called LEO, but then we changed our name to La Gente because we wanted to like -- that whole neighborhood was -- although it was primarily Puerto Rican, it also had some African American and some poor white people that lived in that area. [00:40:00] Because just north of us was Uptown, and there was a lot of poor white up there. Southern Appalachians, they used to work the mines and now were living up there. And it was pretty bad. So we changed our name to be inclusive of everybody in that neighborhood. It represented what we had. So it was called La Gente, and it was -- the model that we used was the model that the Young Lords had set up just south of us. And the same issues -- getting moved out, being gentrified. The same problems. So we set that up. And if you look at it, at Lincoln Park, you had the Young Lords, the Lakeview area had La Gente, and then north of us was the Young Patriots. So that whole area around there was influenced by the Young Lords [00:41:00] in terms of what was going on. And in turn, I think it was the Black Panther Party and some of the other groups that influenced all of us. So we were learning from the Civil Rights 20 �Movement, everything that was going on at that time. So our consciousness was raised, and so that’s what came about. That’s what came about. So that’s where La Gente came into being. And we organized, we did, like I said, free pantry which is now still in existence, it’s called the Lake View Free Food Pantry. It’s still going on. It’s still going on. So some things lasted. So that was the dynamics that were happening at that time. JJ: So there was some connection not only in the -- in terms of the ideology, but I mean there was [00:42:00] actually good communication with the Young Lords at the time and vice versa? DH: Oh, yeah. We supported each other, you know? JJ: What do you remember that we did together? DH: I remember whenever the Young Lords or the Young Patriots or whatever, whenever there was a big event or a march that was going on, we would participate in that. Here’s the thing is that I had friends in the Young Lords that I grew up with who went to high school with me and who I had known since we were little. So even though they were a Young Lords member, we were still together. (laughs) So it was like -- you know what I’m saying? It was our familia. You know, [Carlos Flores?], [Alfredo?], all of these guys I’ve known. JJ: And, actually, there was no initiation or anything, you just started working. DH: Right, we just started working. We just started coming and doing it. JJ: ’Cause I remember being at a lot of your events, not just one or two. DH: Right, [00:43:00] a lot of events that we were -- JJ: But I always knew that you were also the head of La Gente. 21 �DH: Right. Yeah. JJ: So the Young Lords were political, but they were also from the street. So I mean did you actually hang out with any of the Young Lords? DH: Yeah, and I hung out -- JJ: What do you remember about that? I mean what type of people? How were they? DH: I remember we used to party a lot. (laughs) I used to hang out -- JJ: When you say party, what do you mean? DH: Partying. We would go to parties together, (Spanish) [00:43:46] and all of that stuff. JJ: Dancing? DH: Yeah, dances. JJ: (inaudible). DH: Yeah, yeah. JJ: I’m talking about this is before they became political or -- DH: Yeah. JJ: Okay, so you knew them [00:44:00] before they became political. DH: Right. JJ: How were they before they became political, the Young Lords? I mean what do you remember? You said the parties and -- DH: That’s basically about it. There were fights once in a while and all that stuff, but, again, it was because, basically, we had to defend ourselves from the white boys 22 �-- from the white gangs around there. They used to try to beat the shit out of us. So there was this territorial thing that happened. So I remember some of that -JJ: So there wasn’t that [gang of?] today? I mean there was a difference or -- I mean at that time, that was the early part of the gangs, but today -- but it was more territorial. Can you describe what that means? The difference? DH: There was a sense of protection. [00:45:00] We had to protect -- the Young Lords, what I saw, and I remember some of the other gangs and all that, even though once in a while they would fight amongst each other, it was primarily protecting themselves from some of the -- you know, Lo Italiano and some of the Irish gangs and all of that. I think it was born out of protecting ourselves and protecting the neighborhood ’cause even though -- they didn’t call themselves gangs. We used to call them street clubs. (laughs) So these street clubs weren’t just -- a lot of people were not afraid of them because these were their sons and daughters and all of that that were a part of it. And they used to hang out together so they could go to the boys’ club or whatever and feel safe. [00:46:00] But, also, they used to do things like, again, when [Donia Josefa?] died or something like that, these clubs would make a collective. They would go around and make a collection and so they could have a proper burial for her or ship her back to Puerto Rico where they would buried and all of that. So there was thing of helping out the community. They never really attacked their own community. Never. I never saw that. Never saw that. So we used to hang out, and that’s about it. Just hang out and talk about what was going on. 23 �JJ: Do you remember there was a big incident that happened and it was about a week long. [00:47:00] It was on Halsted near Belmont by California Terrace. There was a place called -- DH: Oh, yeah. JJ: What do you remember about that? DH: I remember there was -- JJ: What was that about? DH: I had two friends that lived in that. JJ: What year was that around? Basically it was like sixty -- DH: Sixty-five maybe. Yeah, around ’65, ’66. JJ: This was at California Terrace by Barry. DH: By Barry, right over there. Right. JJ: Was that Lincoln or Clark? DH: Halsted. It was Halsted, Barry, and Clark. California Terrace. A lot of Puerto Ricans lived there, and that was a slum. I mean really bad. My friend, [Jimmy Morales?], lived there. What happened is that it got -- it got so bad that I think it was Father Lizek and maybe [Father Charlie?], [00:48:00] real activists -- and a lot of Puerto Ricans there went to their church which was -- I forgot the name of that church on Wellington. Anyway -- JJ: (inaudible). DH: Yeah, right. And so they organized the people there -- JJ: But there was an incident. I believe the Aristocrats had to jump somebody from there or -- were you involved? 24 �DH: No. JJ: I know that a lot of people from Halsted & Dickens and the Eagles -- DH: Oh, yeah. Yeah, right. Eagles. JJ: -- came here to fight with the Aristocrats. DH: The Outcast Angels. (laughs) JJ: Yeah, the Angels. DH: Well, they used to be called the Angels. JJ: They had a whole week of -- gang-banging for a whole week. DH: Yeah. JJ: (inaudible). DH: Yeah, against the Aristocrats. JJ: Were you involved? Were you a part? DH: Oh, yeah. Yeah. JJ: What do you remember of that, of that era? ’Cause other people have mentioned that, also. DH: What I remember is that we were really -- I was really pissed off [00:49:00] at what happened. And Jimmy Morales and some of the other people, we wanted to exact some vengeance on what happened because they really -- I think what they did is they beat up a kid or tried to rape one -- I think they tried to rape one of the girls. What was her name? I can’t remember her name. I want to say [Ava?]. But they really roughed her up pretty bad. So that’s what did it. That’s what lit the fuel. And so the Eagles, Outcast Angels -- who else was there? JJ: I know Halsted & Dickens, all the different gangs -- clubs, all the different clubs. 25 �DH: Yeah, clubs, all the clubs around there. JJ: And Halsted & Dickens came up there. There were two or three hundred people out there (laughs) for a week. For a whole week. DH: For a whole week, yeah. And driving around. They used to drive [00:50:00] around looking for the -- and I think that was about the last -- that’s what really did the Aristocrats in. I think they were never powerful (laughs) after that. They lost. So it was a statement that was being made. So the Aristocrats, they understood what was going on, so they chilled out. After that, they were no longer that powerful. But I remember that. The thing I’m talking about is in California Terrace -- there’s two. A few years later -- yeah, it was a few years later. You know, that place was so bad that they organized, and they -everybody there, all the tenants, they organized and they held their rent back in escrow. And then they had an opening, [00:51:00] a house -- what do you call that? A house-warming party or whatever, and they invited the press, the invited the public to come and see what it was really like in there. And they had in little baggies or something, they had a cockroach, a dead mouse in there, and they were giving it to people just to show how bad it was. And it worked. It worked. The city got on their case over there, the inspectors came and really -- because the inspectors were on the take. So, of course, all these slum lords, they could just pay off and nothing would be done about it. JJ: So what do you mean on the take? I mean inspectors. DH: The take means that a lot of inspectors, they’re supposed to come in and inspect, and if they see things that are bad or wrong, they’re supposed to report it back to 26 �the city and force the landlord to make repairs, basically to improve the building. And a lot of them [00:52:00] were on the take, that means that they were bribed. That means that the landlords, once a month or whatever, he would pay them off. So much was set aside just to pay off the inspectors not to come in there. And I’m talking about electrical work, I’m talking about just things that really needed to be done. A lot of fires occurred in these buildings ’cause of the bad wiring that happened, and the electrical inspector and all that was supposed to come, and he would take a bribe and just leave it as is and say everything’s perfect. So that’s what happened. JJ: What else do you think we should add to the interview that we haven’t touched upon? I know we didn’t go into other events that you participated in. DH: So much to say. One of the things I want to say is [00:53:00] that at that time -all of us were young, we were the ones who were really leading a lot of this stuff, and organizing, and doing really great stuff not just in our community, but in terms of nationwide. The anti-war movement, that influenced us. The hippies, (laughs) the Yippies, the Youth International Party -- all of these things. The Black Panther Party, all of the -- SDS, all of these. We were all basically together on all of this. So that’s what I remember. It’s all connected. This is not an isolated factor, this was going on nationwide, [00:54:00] and so that influenced us. One of the things, also, that happened was that I’m a poet, I’ve been a poet since I was 11 years old. And so me and other artists, we organized. Got Gamaliel Ramírez, some musicians, artists, and all that, we started doing a lot of things together. And out of that outcome we created El Taller which means The 27 �Workshop. And what we did is that all of us artists got together and formed this organization to deal with community, and we recruited a lot of kids, and we work primarily with kids, to come and help us do art. So the graffiti that was being painted up there by some of the kids on the street, some of the gang bangers if you want to call them, some of them really have talent. (laughs) [00:55:00] So Gamaliel and other artists took them in and showed them how to do murals. So out of that graffiti experience came these beautiful murals that are out there today, you see? So we had an influence to a lot of these kids. Some of them are really talented. They knew how to play bongo, and congas, and music and all that. So we steered them that way, and it worked. It worked. I was part of the whole cultural movement that we created. JJ: And on that same topic (inaudible) campaign, the aldermanic campaign. You did a thing with Bob Gibson or -- do you recall that? DH: Yeah. That’s when Cha-Cha Jiménez was running for alderman. (laughter) JJ: Do you remember any of those verses or anything? DH: And together. And together we can make it. [00:56:00] Turn around and we shape it. That’s how I remember that. That was a great song that Bob Gibson and I wrote together for -- JJ: For the aldermanic campaign. DH: -- for the aldermanic campaign of Cha-Cha Jiménez and the Young Lords. JJ: Bob Gibson is a folk singer and (inaudible). DH: Bob Gibson was really well -- I mean he made it big at one time. He was the ultimate folk singer. 28 �JJ: Well, you’re well-known, too, (inaudible). (laughter) So you did a few things like this, some events, in terms of supporting the Young Lords through the years. DH: In ’71, I published my first book. So then unbeknownst to me, I became the first Latino poet to be published in the state of Illinois. So that’s been an honor that I created, but I didn’t know that at that time. [00:57:00] In terms of the arts and the cultural aspect of it, it’s been a movement. It’s been a part of the movement for a long time. I’m part of that movement that was influenced by the Young Lords. I was influenced by the Black Panther Party, I was influenced by a lot of what was going on at that time. I’m a product of that. At that time, I had an afro. I’m baldheaded now, but I was 6’2” with that damn afro because I used to pick that sucker up. (laugher) I used to wear dashikis and all of that stuff. And, plus, the connection to Puerto Rico, that was important. Puerto Rico Libre, you know, tengo Puerto Rico en mi corazon. That was an influence from the Young Lords ’cause they were the ones that really brought that aspect into the Puerto Rican community here. Free Puerto Rico [00:58:00] about the colonial status of Puerto Rico and all of that, all of that was taught to us by the Young Lords. I know there are other people now that are trying to revise history and say, “Well, we’re the ones” -- no. No, it was the Young Lords. Cha-Cha Jiménez and that group over there that really raised our consciousness in terms of connecting back to our culture because we were losing it here in some ways, so we got acculturated. If it wasn’t for the Young Lords, there wouldn’t be this Puerto Rican pride that we have today that still exists. I think it was (inaudible) that wrote something about the identity crises that we suffered because when we came here everything was 29 �in terms of Black or white, but we were both. We’re multicultural, multiracial, and all of that. [00:59:00] And so the Young Lords, again, were the ones that really instigated that whole concept of being proud of who were, and learning about our culture, learning about our roots. That’s important. Really important, you know? And so that’s what rooted us together. If it wasn’t for all those lessons taught -because, see, the Young Lords were not just an organization, they became the teachers. Simple. END OF VIDEO FILE 30 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f830d6aab9659211fea61a0b5bd0fefe.mp4 a722e34654698b20c1842a63b07199a3 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry David Hernández vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Artes, Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago Renovación urbana--Illinois--Chicago Juventud--Illinois--Chicago Discriminación en la vivienda--Illinois--Chicago Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Viviendas--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Hernandez_David Title A name given to the resource David Hernández video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Hernández, David Description An account of the resource David Hernández was born in Cidra, Puerto Rico and arrived in Chicago in 1955. He has volunteered with the Young Lords in many activities and events. But his primary community work has been with La Gente, an organization he founded that worked with Latinos and the poor of Lakeview. Originally the group was called the Latin Eagles Organization. Like the Young Lords, La Gente also had a Breakfast for Children Program. The group stood with the Young Lords for affordable housing and against Mayor Richard J. Daley’s displacement of Puerto Ricans from the lakefront and near downtown areas of the city. Mr. Hernández has been called the unofficial, “Poet Laureate of Chicago.” He blends folk, jazz, and Afro-Latin music that chronicles the pedestrian walking down Chicago’s streets. One of his famous poems is called “La Armitage” and features the neighborhood of Lincoln Park and several prominent Young Lords. Mr. Hernández performed at Harold Washington’s mayoral inauguration in 1977 and at his funeral. He also performed in Humboldt Park for the Young Lords and at their 40th Anniversary in 2008. Today, David Hernández lives in Wicker Park, continues to be active in the community, and to collaborate with the Young Lords. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Arts, Puerto Rican--Illinois--Chicago Urban renewal--Illinois--Chicago Youth--Illinois--Chicago Discrimination in housing--Illinois--Chicago Civil Rights--United States--History Housing--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-29 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7cb3b494022c81d79fb578c0522d9879.pdf 274424eb40c72b6844ff644586b7b3b6 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Father Donald J. Headley Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 8/21/2012 Biography and Description Fr. Donald Headley was first ordained as a Catholic priest in 1958 and is resident priest at the St. Mary’s of the Woods Faith Community in Chicago. He recalls meeting with Saul Alinsky and working with Rev. Jack Eagan, the founder of urban Catholic activism. He also recalls a great deal about the Puerto Rican community in La Clark that grew up through the 1950s. Fr. Headley’s work in Chicago also prompted him to spend 13 years working with the poor in the San Miguelito Mission in Panama during the late 1960s and 1970s. The mission was an experimental parish, based on the practice of liberation theology, organized by the Archdiocese of Chicago in 1962. By 1980, when the project was terminated by the Archidiocese amidst controversy involving questions of theology and liturgy, the mission had assumed control over 53 parishes and base communities. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Father Dan Headley, if you can tell me your name, and -- DONALD HEADLEY: Yeah, sure. JJ: -- when you were born, and where. DH: Okay. I was born in Chicago on July 11, 1932. My name is Don Headley, and I’m not Irish. I am English and American Indian -- Pequot, actually -- and I am Kashub and Polish on my mother’s side. My mom’s family came over in 1903. She wasn’t born yet. And my dad came -- moved up from around Pontiac, and he fell in love with my mother, and that’s how I came into existence, so (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JJ: Oh, Pontiac, Michigan, over by Detroit. DH: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. Okay. And so, you were born in the -- DH: In Chicago. JJ: And you grew up where? Where did you grow up? DH: I grew up -- I was on the Southeast Side of Chicago, near Wentworth [00:01:00] Avenue, which is Clark Street on the North Side, but I don’t remember that very much. I was too small, and -- but I actually grew up just a block south of Garfield Boulevard. Fifty-sixth Street, actually, in Winchester, where we lived in a building that my grandfather and grandmother, who were Kashub and Polish respectively, owned. So, we were on the first floor. JJ: So, was that a Polish community then, or --? 1 �DH: No. No, it was just a regular community. JJ: (inaudible). DH: [It was?] St. Basil Parish. JJ: St. Basil, okay. DH: Yeah. Now, it’s pretty much just a clinic, a health clinic. The church was torn down, and other things were changed there, but it’s right down the block from Visitation, where a lot of the people who used to be on 63rd Street -- Puerto Ricans -- still live. [Riveras?], for instance. [Cesar?] Rivera’s family is still there, I think, [00:02:00] on -- near Garfield Boulevard, in Halsted Street, actually. I was between Damen and Ashland Avenue, actually. That’s where I was raised. JJ: Now, you mentioned [La Sesenta y Tres?], 63rd Street. There was a community there at that time? DH: Where? I’m sorry. JJ: Puerto Rican -- Sixty-third Street or -- DH: Oh, 63rd. Well, I don’t think there was much of a community [right at that?] time, of Puerto Ricans, anyway. That was like -- I was there between 1932 -- JJ: Oh, ’32. (inaudible) DH: -- and nine-- they weren’t there yet. Actually, the Puerto Ricans came in because of a deal between President Roosevelt and Muñoz Marín. Any Puerto Rican that came over meant 10 dollars in the budget for Puerto Rico to do urbanization programs and stuff like that, so there was this big -- they needed people to work in the Chrysler plant, for instance, where people were building tanks for the Second World War. That’s when the Puerto Ricans really had their great influx. 2 �JJ: The Chrysler plant in [00:03:00] Detroit or --? DH: No, in Chicago. JJ: In Chicago, okay. DH: Right. JJ: And what area was it? DH: I think that was around Western Avenue somewhere. I’m not sure where -- JJ: But on the South Side? DH: -- but near the Midway Airport. JJ: [Midway?]. DH: That time, Midway was the only airport in the city. There was no O’Hare. JJ: Right. Okay, there was no O’Hare. DH: But the Puerto Ricans were living pretty much, at that time, during that particular war period -- Leo was ordained -- Father Leo Mahon -- JJ: You said the ’40s? You’re talking about in the ’40s? DH: Father Leo Mahon was ordained in 1951, and he was a Holy Cross Parish -- he went there so that he could work with the Afro-American community, and, all of a sudden, Puerto Ricans came into the rectory and said to him, “We are not recognized in this city, and -- what do we do? We don’t know anything about our religion. We don’t know anything about what we’re doing here. We have no concept of what we’re supposed to be doing.” And so, Leo went downtown to talk to the cardinal. The cardinal said, [00:04:00] “Well, do something.” JJ: Which cardinal at that time? DH: Cardinal Stritch at that time. 3 �JJ: Stritch, okay. DH: And he said, “Well, do something. It’s okay. We have to take care of all the people.” I don’t think he knew what he was saying, but Leo then got promoted into what was eventually called the Cardinal’s Committee for Spanish Speaking, and it was -- thank God it was not in the vicar general’s office for the archdiocese, nor in the chancellor’s office for the archdiocese -- JJ: Why do you say -- why do you --? DH: -- but it was backed by Catholic Charities. JJ: But why do you say that? (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? DH: Well, because those people were -- pretty much, they worked on manipulation of power, and Catholic Charities was a little different item with Cooke at that time, who was the -- Vince Cooke was the head of it, and he raised funds for it. He was a tremendous businessman beside being a great priest -- Monsignor Cooke, Vincent Cooke -- and he had all kinds of staff there, and he made Leo part of his staff. [00:05:00] So, Leo was the executive director. Gilbert Carroll was sort of liaison between Leo and Catholic Charities. And Leo began to look for ways in which he could actually affect the Puerto Rican community, and he said, “Well, what about community organization? How is that possible? [Do we have to?] organize as a community? You have leaders, don’t you?” He said, “Oh, yeah. We have leadership, but they don’t know what to do,” which was normal. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DH: Yeah. They needed somebody to help. So, he went to Saul Alinsky, and Saul Alinsky was -- at that time, he had the -- I’m sorry. 4 �JJ: That’s okay. DH: Saul Alinsky had the -- course, his organization. So, he lent two people to us. Nick von Hoffman was one of the people, who is now a writer and who’s retired. He wrote for the Washington Post after he left Saul Alinsky’s organization. And Lester Hunt, who also, before, [00:06:00] I think, he was here, or just after he was here -- he was here in Chicago, working with the Puerto -- I’m not sure exactly when that happened, but he lives, now, in Chicago, Lester does, and he became a high school teacher eventually. If you want to -- it might be a good idea to talk to him. He’s a really great guy, and he lives on Randolph Street, East Randolph Street. But these people helped to form people like Juan Sosa, [Calvino?] (inaudible), José Valentín, [Julio Vides?], all these people that eventually -- Cesar Rivera, the Chevere brothers. All these people were together in this -- [where that?] really began on the Southeast Side, you know, around 63rd Street and near the parish where Father Leo was. But Leo then, eventually, took up an office. He had one office that was right on Wacker Drive, and then they moved to the [corner of?] what was the -- 1300 Wabash, [00:07:00] which was the big place, which we occupied for a while. We even put murals in there for the [Cursillo?], for the chapel, for the Cursillo, and, on the first -- primer alto, the first floor, we had other things redolent of what was the -- representative of what was the immigration flux into Chicago, not only Puerto Rican, but -- at that time, there were Mexican as well and other communities as well. Pretty much -- you know, when I think of my own passage, I was circumstantial because I used to take 5 �people down from St. Patrick’s, where I -- was my first particular assignment as an associate, and -JJ: St. Patrick’s (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? DH: St. Patrick’s on Adams and Des Plaines. JJ: [Adams and?] -- okay. DH: And what I found there was a community that was pretty much broken people. [There were?] pimps, prostitutes, drug addicts. There were [00:08:00] drunkards, you know, but -- alcoholics, actually, and it was Skid Row, and I was sent there because, supposedly, I was being punished because I wouldn’t do something for some professor in the seminary. I guess that was why they sent me there. After five years, though, after working there for five years, they wanted me to go teach history at Quigley, and I was going to go to Quigley, when they told me that, well, Leo was going to Panama, and they wanted me to take over the Hispanic office in Chicago, which was the Cardinal’s Committee for the Spanish Speaking. That time, we were organizing the community. So, it was pretty much circumstantial, the way I got involved in all this. That’s what happens in life, you know. You sort of plan for certain things, and it goes in another direction, which is fine. I’ve been very happy in what I do. But, while I was at St. Pat’s, my acquaintance with people was really wonderful and spectacular. I learned more in the [00:09:00] five years that I was at St. Patrick’s than I had learned in twelve years in seminary [presence?], I think. The people taught me a lot, and that people who were on the edge could also put people who cared and loved and who had a lot 6 �of hope -- Puerto Ricans that were coming in, living at the [West Hotel?] -- it was -- horrible situation. JJ: The West Hotel? DH: West Hotel was -- there’s now a hotel on Madison Street, a big, you know, motor hotel. JJ: Right there on Madison? DH: Right there on Madison. Well, that -- JJ: And Des Plaines? DH: -- used to be the West Hotel, which was -- JJ: Madison and Des Plaines there? DH: -- hot and cold, [running roaches?]. That was what it was, and these people had to live in that situation. There was a women there who kept cats, and, when she died, the people went into her room to [find out?] -- she must have a lot of money, and what they found were little packages filled with cat poo, you know. That’s what they found in there. So, it’s pretty awful [in many ways?]. But the place was terrifying, and yet, these people were holding their families together and doing marvelous things with them, and they [00:10:00] would come to Eucharist on a Sunday, and they would participate in spite of the fact it was in Latin, you know, and maybe a homily in Spanish. I would try to fight my way through it. But then, besides that, I began to (inaudible) people coming together in meetings and groups, and I tried to find out where something was going on that would get people involved, get people talking to one another. And so, some of the Mexicans, some of the Puerto Ricans that were pretty much together, they 7 �came together. We would go, on one night, to what was the office at 13th and Wabash, and, at 13th and Wabash, we participated in what was the formation [meetings?], which was how to really run a dialogue in your community. How do you really sit down with neighbors and get them to really talk to one another? Now, I had some acquaintance with Spanish. I was just beginning to really use the language pretty well. [00:11:00] When I was helping out over summer, for instance, with Leo’s office, ’cause I was interested in that even then, in 1956 and ’57 -- ’56, I think, was when the first Puerto Rican parade happened. They keep talking here about it starting in the ’60s. It never did. The first night was (inaudible). JJ: [I think it was?] ’53. I saw a -- DH: [It was really?], yeah. JJ: -- photo of that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DH: Right, yeah. It was tremendous, yeah. JJ: (inaudible). DH: Right, (inaudible). That was where it was, and -- JJ: (inaudible). DH: -- it was just a marvelous thing, and I was involved in that, you know. I was there, and I was calling people, and talking to them on the phone, and making sure that they got their people out in the Caballeros de San Juan, which already existed, and all the Concilio de los Caballeros San Juan were involved in that thing. So, this is where I was, and I didn’t know that I was going to eventually be involved in all of this. 8 �JJ: But they were at 13th and Wabash, the Caballeros? DH: They were at 13th and Wabash. Well, the office was [00:12:00] actually, at that time, on Wacker Drive. That’s where I was making the phone calls from. JJ: By 1953, there were some Caballeros at -- DH: There Were Caballeros around somewhere, yeah. JJ: Somewhere. DH: I’m not sure where they were. Probably council number one, two, and three. JJ: [What’s this?] -- one, two -- DH: Two was like San José, St. Joseph’s, with the two Spaniard priests that were there, Spanish priests that were there. JJ: St. Joseph’s was on the West Side? DH: And council three was being founded at that time with the help of Kathrein, John Kathrein -- JJ: [Father Kathrein?]. DH: -- with the Redemptorists. Wonderful old guy, like 112 years old at the time, and he -- learning Spanish for the first time in his life in -- the age of 70, I think, he learned Spanish. He’s a great guy. But that was in the ’50s, but I’m talking about a time like -- closer to 1968. I was ordained in 1958, and that was when I went to St. Patrick’s, and that’s where I began, really, to get involved and to take people to meetings at the center, which, at that time, ’58, [00:13:00] ’60, or -- [it was?] ’59, ’60. I was already at the Cardinal’s Committee for Spanish Speaking on Wabash Avenue, 1300 Wabash. So, this was a really fascinating sort of meeting because I met, there, [Don Sierra?], who eventually became a deacon in 9 �the church here in Chicago, and, eventually, Jesús Rodríguez. Actually, the person that probably taught me most Spanish in the world was [Chuy?] Rodríguez. He was a really conflictive sort of person. He had abandoned his family for a while, living with another woman, and he had children with that woman as well. Wonderful girl. She was a great woman. Both his wives at different times were just wonderful people, but he went back to his first wife and was working with his family. He was doing his best he could. Eventually, though, he had a terrible nervous breakdown. He had had a terrible youth, where his father or grandfather would make him [00:14:00] kneel on stones and pray the rosary, and the sense of religiosity [he had?] -- so, listening to us, you know, priests that were with this whole business of the council that was gonna begin, the Second Vatican Council -- all of a sudden, he got a different image of church. Church became, for him, not so much a religious item, but an item for people’s faith so that they would be able to take steps into their own future and really form their own culture, their own traditions, their own history, and the basis of that -- live what Paul taught us about in his Letter to the Galatians, which is spectacular. He says, “Don’t you understand what the gospel is really all about? The good news of Jesus Christ. It’s that all of us, together, equally -- equally -share the life of the risen Christ. Men and women, Jews and Greeks, slaves and free.” What that means in what is evangelization is that you have to lose all sexism, all racism, and all economic [00:15:00] privilege. Now, not even the Roman Catholic Church has done that [always?]. Look at the conquests, or look at some of the -- our Protestant brothers and sisters who listen to the word, but 10 �I’m afraid, you know, they really treat women poorly, and so do we. I mean, we still have not ordained a woman in the Roman Catholic Church, which is kinds weird, I think. And, also, with racial problems, we’ve had difficulties, as everyone else has had too, and, with regard to economic privilege, well, we all like to have a dollar in our pockets, you know? And that’s the problem. If those are the things that really run our lives, then we are in real trouble. So, the idea is the gospel [is one?] -- when Gregory the Great first, in Rome, was trying to send missionaries to England, by the way, [who were my?] ancestors -- at that time, my ancestors -- not like the Maya. The Maya were building huge pyramids at that time, in that particular century, which was, like, the end of the sixth and the beginning of the seventh century. [00:16:00] He was sending missionaries there, and he said, “Don’t you dare transfer what is Roman culture there. They have their own culture. Honor that culture, but take the gospel and put it into that culture, so, then, the culture will lose its sexism, its racism, and its economic privilege.” And we’re all called by Paul, I think, in his letter [as though?] -- First Letter to the Corinthians, for instance, tells us that the real human being -- human being Adam, which is not a individual at all. He’s the whole human race. “We don’t know how to be human,” he says. It’s Jesus Christ who shows us how to be human, ’cause -- why? ’Cause he’s totally related to God and totally related to one of us. So, the idea was, coming out of the council, the Second Vatican Council, was to help people actually become totally human, to understand that [insertion?] into Christ at baptism, for instance, for the Catholics, is not a separation from the rest of the world, but it’s the way Christ relates to the rest of 11 �the world -- [00:17:00] with total justice, total love, and total compassion. So, I mean, this is the way our office was being organized. We were taking people from different communities, ethnic communities. We had to understand how this was going to work out in a whole archdiocese of Chicago sort of way. And so, by the time I got into the office, Leo went to Panama to found basic Christian community there, transformed all of Latin America with that, and we were doing the same thing in Chicago with these small meetings -JJ: It spread to other areas in Latin America? DH: Right. To get people involved in what was life, not so much -- they didn’t have to be involved so much in the [sacristy?] of the churches. That wasn’t what our interest was, but to get people to really transform the whole community in which they were living. In other words, to be present to that community. Whether they were young, whether they were old, whether they were men, whether they were women, this is what they had to really be involved in. [00:18:00] So, we tried to base their theology on that, so that wouldn’t be a religion-based theology. In other words, go back to the past. Cling to the columns of the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, and then you would be fine. No, it was an item of how do we create a church now, today, that’s -- with people of faith who are not afraid of the future and who will actually form their lives? All of these things have to work in the circumstances of people’s lives. By the time I took over that office, we already had in process -- we had people meeting on a Monday night and talking about scripture, and theology, and pastoral ways of acting with other people in the community. How do we get people to become what they’re supposed to 12 �become in the world? How do we get them to live their marriages totally, completely, with total love shared between two people, raising their [00:19:00] family with great appreciation and hope for their children, making sure that all their children are well educated and have an opportunity to do something with their lives in the future, not afraid of taking a step into that future, who will not lose, maybe, their whole Latino culture and language, but will also learn the languages that they need here? You know, people have to be bilingual, actually, here, and they are. The only ones that aren’t bilingual are the gringos, you know? But the Latinos certainly are. You know, even the Mexican people in my classes today are all people who are totally bilingual, and they have their kids on the street who are becoming -- they’re not so much of the Latino culture. They’re more of the McDonald culture, you know? “Let’s go get a Big Mac.” That sort of thing. But the people are changing all the time, and they’re in multiethnic settings. So, in other words, the church cannot be a [00:20:00] one-ethnicity sort of reality. It’s got to be a reality that’s going to offer itself to make the changes necessary for people today to tomorrow. This is what it has to be. And so, this is pretty much what we were working on. Course, other people had other approaches to that. José, you had the groups of young people on Division Street and North Avenue that were affecting the young people, and getting them together, and making them talk to one another. [As yet?], when you were there, the drug problem did not really hit everybody. There was some heroin in place, but crack and the other stuff, cocaine, the shoot-ups that people had to go through with sharing needles and bringing AIDS into their family and themselves, 13 �all those things did not exist yet. That didn’t happen until after I left in ’68. That pretty much was just [00:21:00] beginning at that time. It was very disturbing and very horrible, what happened to the communities after that, but that’s where the world is today, and how do we affect that kind of world? That’s another problem. But, at that particular time, we did not have that particular difficulty. I’m sorry. JJ: Going back to Jesús Rodríguez and the -- DH: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. JJ: -- Second Vatican Council -- so, you were -- DH: Oh, yeah. JJ: -- talking about that during that time. It was that period. DH: Oh, yeah. JJ: So, how did that impact him? [I mean, what did he say?]? DH: Well, José -- JJ: What was his role? What was his role in the church? DH: His role in the church was actually -- everybody wanted to be like him, like Jesús, like Chuy, because Chuy was one great, great speaker. He could move an audience, you know. Talk about somebody that [was able to?] move a mountain from one place to another and throw it into the ocean, like Jesus says in that [pretty good parable?]. That’s what Jesús, Chuy, could do. [00:22:00] Tremendous preacher at the Cursillos. He taught me how to preach. He taught me how to do everything, actually. I (inaudible) how to use the language. It was just absolutely spectacular. [Juan Cierro?] is another one. They were really great people, and you had others that had other skills, of course, like Juan Sosa 14 �had a great skill for getting people to talk to each other, and Calvino (inaudible), who had a sense of -- still has today a sense of service for people that’s absolutely excellent. José Valentín, who [they all?] accused of being [council went crazy?], he -- but he was the guy that -- he, with Julio Vides, eventually organized the youth groups around baseball, really good baseball. They had great leagues going on here. JJ: (inaudible). DH: [José?]. All those things ran -- we ran retreats in Cursillos and everything else. Jesús was the master preacher at the Cursillo, and, besides that, when Leo went to [00:23:00] Panama, we let Jesús go a couple of times over summer when we weren’t doing any Cursillos. He would go there and talk to the people there. Of course, when they listened to him speak in Panama, they said, “Oh, my God. We want to be like him,” you know? And this was a great thing. It was like the nuns that went to Panama too. We had three Maryknoll nuns that went there, and all the women wanted to be like the nuns ’cause they were absolutely -- I mean, they were absolutely wonderful with people, and all the guys wanted their wives to be like the nuns too, you know? ’Cause they were just so open, and alive, and filled with hope, and this is the thing that I think we really have to remember. No matter where you are in a parish or in a parish setting for a church, you’re not trying to get people to hang out in the sacristy, or in the building, or -- that’s not what you’re doing. Eucharist is something for us that is meant to send people out the door. The most important thing in the church is the exit [00:24:00] sign, you know? You’re supposed to be able to go out the door 15 �and go do something. If you’re not gonna do something, why are you here? Don’t come in here and tell me that you’re here because God’s gonna give you something. God doesn’t give us a lot of stuff. God’s already given us the gift of life, and our job is to turn it into the task of grace. We’re supposed to go out and share it with the people around us. So, I think this sort of thing -- Jesús got that - Chuy Rodríguez, for instance, got that idea. He also absorbed other people into his group. Like, Chuy García was a Mexican kid. He came in to eventually end up in Panama, eventually got exiled by the government at that time back to Mexico, and I don’t know where he ended up. I don’t know where he is. We never saw him again, but I know he was safe, but that’s not the point. Why did they do this? Because they were against us at that particular time in Panama. Panama became a conflictive place, but that was normal, you know. You expected [00:25:00] that to happen. JJ: I mean, what was going on in Panama? I mean, [I don’t?] -- DH: Well, eventually, in Panama, in -- I went there in 1968. About a little while after I got there, they had elections, and the president that won was eventually -- they had a coup against him. Arnulfo Arias was the president at that time, and he was elected, and then they kicked his butt out of there, and he was a guy that had really transformed Panama. He developed a social security system, a system of hospitals for social security. He developed labor unions. He had developed [at?] different times [when he was?] president, and, every time he was president, someone threw him out. The army came in and threw him out. So, they threw him out on October 12, 1968, and we, in our communities in San Miguelito in 16 �Panama -- our people organized and did a march, and we eventually told the -they [already had?] machine guns in the street against us, [00:26:00] but they did not kill us. They let us go where we were going. We were going from one parish at that time, which was [Cristo El Redentor?], to Cristo Hijo del Hombre. It was at the other end of the community. We’re just gonna march there, and we were gonna do that, and we would sing the national anthem of Panama, and that was the end of it. But they said, “Well, what do you want?” Torrijos, who was the guy in charge at that particular moment -- they called Leo and said, “What do you guys want? What do you think this is? You have no right to do this.” He said, “Oh, yes, we do. We’re not doing it. The people are doing it,” you know, and people were ready to do it. This was after several years of real organization. We had several parishes, and people were really organized to do (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JJ: When you started, there were no parishes, or --? DH: Well, we went there. There were no -- there was one big parish called San Miguelito, but people were just coming into the area at that time. That was one thing. As soon as people come into an area, you have to be there, and that’s what we learned in Panama. You had to be there right away. I eventually ended up in Panama because [00:27:00] I couldn’t work with Cody, but before that -Cardinal Cody -- but I worked with [Meyer?] really well here while we were organizing (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- JJ: Why couldn’t you work with Cody? DH: Pardon? 17 �JJ: Why couldn’t you work with Cody? DH: Well, he just never accepted what we were doing. He was so intent on doing what the mayor wanted, who was one of the Daleys, [a father for?] Richard Daley -- Richard J. Daley at that time. It was not the M. Daley of the present, but he -for instance, the Puerto Rican -- the whole business of the riots that happened here 40 years ago -- a little bit more than 40 years now. Those riots were really partially provoked by the police, and the response by the young people’s community especially was terrific. I was so proud of -- JJ: It was terrific, you said? DH: Oh, I thought it was terrific, and, I mean, I was on top of a police car on Division Street, and they were gonna burn the [00:28:00] police car, and I said, “Don’t do it ’cause the guys that are egging you on are cops.” I knew the cops from Monroe Street District when I was at St. Pat’s. And they burned the car anyway, of course. Of course, I jumped off the damn car. But then, all the police were in the gangways in the neighborhood on Division Street. They came out. They’d beat up everybody on the street, you know, and we were on the street for three days, [the Hermanos en la Familia de Dios?], which was the group of people who were organizing for lay ministry in the church. Caballeros de San Juan were not always that. They were pretty much a community organization at that time. But the Hermanos, they were saying, “We want to learn something about our religion.” And so, they learned stuff on their religion through dialogue and discussion, and that’s the way they taught it to the people in their parishes. And then, at the end of each series of discussions, they would have a Cursillo, which 18 �was a retreat. Sort of tied things together. And that’s the way things were organized out of the [00:29:00] office, and I would meet with them on Monday night. We would have discussion on scripture or whatever. On Wednesday night, we’d go visit a particular parish area, and on Thursday or Friday following that Wednesday, I would go and visit the pastor there, and I would say to the pastor -- this was during Meyer’s time. Cody sort of put an end to this, and that’s why I couldn’t work with him, because we had to keep organizing people. JJ: So, he put an end to the organizing, or --? DH: What he did wasn’t in accord with what we were doing, going in and visiting the pastors afterward. Meyer backed me with the pastors, but Meyer died of a tumor in the brain. So, when he died, Cody came in. It was over, pretty much, but, when he was there, he really supported everything we were doing, and I would go in and talk to the pastor. I said, “You know, you have a lot of [Latinos here.” Pastor said?], “Well, we don’t have any Latinos here.” “Oh, really? Well, this is a list --” JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DH: Yeah, pastors. Some of the pastors would say that. JJ: Some of the pastors. DH: I would say, “Well, this is a list of the people in your parish who are Latinos, [00:30:00] and they are going to have a Spanish Mass after July, when a new priest will come in here and be your associate, and he will do a Spanish Mass, and he knows a lot about the culture because we’re training him now.” We trained him, usually, at Dominican University for the language, and we had 19 �people coming in from Latin America and from Puerto Rico, from all over, to really train them culturally [to understand that?] -JJ: Who paid for these people to -- DH: Oh, the archdiocese. JJ: [Oh, they did?]? DH: Catholic Charities. JJ: Oh, [they did pay?]? DH: Oh, yeah. Definitely. Yeah. JJ: For them to come from Puerto Rico and Latin America? DH: Oh, yes. Definitely. Yeah. All kinds of wonderful people came in, and I had them coming in all the time. JJ: So, the archdiocese was supporting it, but there was some resistance? DH: Right. Well, there was probably some resistance, and, when Cody came in, he just stopped it all. But what was really bad was the fact that he stopped this business of really changing the parish structure so that the pastor would have to recognize [people that were?] -- we would invite the -- I wasn’t abusive to the pastors. I would just say that, “You know, you are welcome [00:31:00] [in any of? these homes. Next Tuesday night, one of the Hermanos is gonna be there, and they’re gonna have a discussion on scripture and on what it is to be a parish so they can support the parish and be with you in the parish, and you’re welcome to go to that home and have a cup of tea with them, (Spanish) [00:31:18].” We said, “You can do that if you want to, so go and do this, you know. You’re welcome to do it.” At the same time, there’s all kinds of other things happening in 20 �the community, I think. You had your guys, the Young Lords. They were organizing, and they were doing all kinds of wonderful -- I think they were doing wonderful things, and -JJ: (inaudible). DH: No, I think so because they were getting young people organized. We had another aspect of that. [We’re out on the?] baseball games and the retreats that we had at [Liberty Bell?]. We had a whole series. We had Liberty Bell retreats every single summer. JJ: [Who was?] (inaudible)? DH: There was a center there that we could use. It was not a [00:32:00] luxurious place, but it was a good place, and we had room for people, and we would have - Las Hijas de María would go out, and then we would have the kids go out, the young boys go out, the guys go out for the different levels of baseball. Everybody would have a retreat every single summer, and we would run a couple of meetings for older people out there. JJ: You mean each group, each parish? DH: They would come from the parishes, but the kids were -- JJ: [And the councils?] (inaudible) -- DH: The kids were organized as baseball, so they crossed parish lines ’cause they built their teams, you know. They wanted people who could hit and people who could pitch. That’s what they wanted. So, they would have cross-parish stuff, and, in a certain sense, what we were doing was -- we weren’t building just the parishes. We were building the archdiocese of Chicago with regard to Latinos, 21 �and this is what we wanted to do. We wanted to be aware of one another. So, this was kind of [00:33:00] important, really important at that time. That was pretty much stopped when Cody came in. And so, people were struggling with stuff, and I was just disappointed and discouraged, and I decided, well, maybe I can do some good in Panama, so I asked Leo if they needed something, and he said, “Oh, yeah. We need somebody for scripture and for formation here, and you can also be in charge of one of the parishes. That would be fine. You know, we need somebody.” So, he asked for me, and I asked to go, so that was the way it was. But it was good, and things changed then. JJ: You mentioned there was a difference between the Caballeros [as an?] organization and the Hermanos. DH: Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah. JJ: (inaudible). DH: Well, some of the members of the Caballeros came in. You know, people like [Antonio Villalobos?], who was from council number eight. We had people like -well, you had other people from other [ones of?] the councils would come in, and they would say, “You know, [00:34:00] our wives go to church, but we don’t know anything about our religion. What is it all about? Can we talk about that?” This was way early, when Leo was still in charge of the office -- JJ: (inaudible). DH: -- before he went to Panama in 1963. He left for Panama in 1963. He got there in February of 1963, but he was here from nineteen fifty-- like, two, three, four, until 1962 and pretty much into 1963. So, at that time, you know, this is where 22 �they came. The Caballeros de San Juan would come down for meetings, and some of these guys took Leo aside, said, “We need some help.” So, people like [Juan Sierra?] helped with that. So did Chuy Rodríguez, tremendously so, and, you know, all these people who were involved in the Hermanos Cheos from Puerto Rico, they were the heart of the whole matter. The Hermanos Cheos were one of the finest groups in all of Puerto Rico. They really saved the islands -- for whatever’s left of the Catholic Church there, [00:35:00] they’re the ones that saved it. [They were?] -JJ: I heard about them. So, what were they? I mean -- DH: The Hermanos Cheos? JJ: Yeah, [I’ve heard about them?]. DH: Well, they were a group of guys, lay people. When the priest sort of left and went back to Spain -- a lot of them left. They went back to Spain, where they came from, and there weren’t that many Puerto Rican priests around. And so, these guys got together and said, “We have to save this island for our culture, and our Puerto Rican heritage, and our church, our religion, and all the [stuff?] that we are,” because what happened was the United States government, the president at that time, sent all kinds of missionaries from the Protestant groups into Puerto Rico to break up the culture and the community and take away what people were as Catholics. They didn’t want people to be Catholic. So, they sent that here. [Actually what happened?]. This was in the nineteenth century when the -- JJ: These were sent from -- DH: -- war with Spain was over, and that’s what happened. 23 �JJ: Sent from the United States after the war against Spain? DH: After the war with Spain, yeah. JJ: [00:36:00] (inaudible). DH: After the war with Spain, where they took over the island. And so, Puerto Rico’s very small. You know, it’s built like an ice cream cone, actually. It’s got a very small base and a very large top, and Aibonito’s at the very top of it, but that’s [what it is?], you know, and it’s very small, but it’s the gate to the Antilles. It’s the gate of everything. It’s out there, in the Atlantic Ocean, in the Caribbean, and it’s really -- that’s why the United States wanted [the thing?], and they put their naval bases there and everything. So, it was really kind of an important island for the United States, but it was also important for the people that lived there, and these guys were trying to save what was their faith and their religion. So, people like Jesús Rodríguez and Juan Sierra descended from that group that we call the Hermanos Cheos. They went through the island, you know, praying the rosary, and doing meditations on the rosary, and all these kinds of stuff, really invoking Mary more [00:37:00] than anything else, and they went from place to place, town to town. They established things, like people have the great visits of Christmastime, when they go from town to town with music. JJ: Las Parrandas. DJ: Las Parrandas, yeah. Those are absolutely marvelous things from the culture, and it’s much richer than just saying they’re Catholic. It’s a whole cultural reality that is so beautiful and so wonderful, and watching people do it, it’s just spectacular. It’s just like -- or waking up on the beach in the Fiesta of San Juan 24 �or on Tres Reyes, [Para los Reyes?]. All that stuff is really cultural, and it may have come from the Spaniards, but it’s more than just Spanish. It’s become a cultural inheritance, and this is where people are. JJ: And so, when the development of the Caballeros -- DH: Yeah. JJ: Where did the idea come from? I see a little bit came from [00:38:00] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- DH: It came, pretty much, from Saul Alinsky’s group. JJ: Oh, can you explain that? DH: Pretty much from that. In other words, you have to organize, and you have to develop leadership. In other words, there is always an outside agitator. So, Leo was kind of like the outside agitator, you know, and so was Nick von Hoffman. So was Lester Hunt. But, eventually, the leadership arose in the Puerto Rican community with Juan Sosa, with Calvino (inaudible), with Cesar Rivera, all those people who took on leadership in the different councils. JJ: [How?] -- DH: I think there eventually were 13 councils. JJ: So, did the Cardinal’s Committee reach out to them, or did they reach out? DH: Right -- no. Well, both. Both ways. It was a two-way street, and people had their meetings in their own area. They had to have a chaplain with them. [If they?] had a chaplain, they were very much organized on the basis of the parish in which they were living. Pretty much that. And so -- JJ: They had to have a -- 25 �DH: [00:39:00] Yeah. JJ: -- chaplain to -- DH: Right. JJ: -- be accepted. DH: Right. Right. JJ: I mean -- DH: They were accepted in the parish, yeah. JJ: They were accepted [in the parish?]. DH: Oh, definitely, yeah. But the whole business of lay ministry developed out of these guys. JJ: [Did the?] (inaudible)? DH: Well, eventually, the diaconate came out of it. There were a lot of guys ready for the diaconate when I left for Panama. I asked Cody -- JJ: What does that mean? DH: -- if I could have those guys ordained. JJ: I don’t understand that. What does that mean? How does that --? DH: Oh, okay. Sure. Yeah. Well, lay ministry is one thing. That means laypeople -men, women -- they are in charge of different ministries in a parish, different ways of approaching people, working with them, helping them, being a blessing for them, taking care of the catechesis -- the catechetics that you have to teach children for their participation in sacraments or in life of the parish, the organization of young people. There should be some adults involved in that, as well as the young people organizing things themselves. So, you have all these 26 �different ministries that appear. When I was at [00:40:00] Mercy, for instance, for 20 years after I came back from Panama, we developed -- there must be 3,000 ministers there of different levels of doing things, and working with life, and doing retreats, and, by the time I was three years in the parish, I never gave a retreat at Our Lady of Mercy, but the people gave the retreats. I would just give an introduction to the retreat, and they were in charge of the whole thing. They did all the training for baptism for parishes -- for families. They trained the couples who were -- so that they could train their children for first Communions. The confirmation was built out of not so much the eighth grade, but out of going into high school and saying, “I want this particular reality because it’s the end of my baptismal process, and I want to be like my parents. I want to be what they are. I want to be like what my godparents are. I want to be like that.” So, okay. Fine, kid. Then, sign up. So, we began with [00:41:00] 50 people, 50 kids from high school. We ended up, now, with 250 there every year, 250 kids who become confirmed and who have to choose a ministry once they are confirmed. They have a two-year course with three courses every year. First course is on Saturdays at one o’clock in the afternoon, maybe. I’m not sure when they’re doing it now. I think that’s when they do it. I’m out of the parish, so I don’t know. And then, the second year of the course is for kids that are, like, 16, who can work on weekends, so they have a Friday night class. It’s ’cause they can work on the weekend to help their family a little bit. That’s the second year. Three courses that year as well. So, it’s a really serious project, and it really takes account into what people are and what they want to do in their life. You know, 27 �where they want to go, how they want to -- we would want them to stay in school, for instance. We would want them to work in the community with other young people, really share things with them. [00:42:00] That’s what we would want. That’s what Mercy -- but this is pretty basically the way we approached things in Panama and basically the way we approached things out of the Cardinal’s Committee [when we were?] just beginning the organization. Everything had to be done with conscious effort to put people in charge. In other words, I’m not gonna absorb everything. Now, Saul Alinsky did the same thing. In the organization of communities, you don’t absorb everything. You hand it over to a leader, somebody who’s from the community itself, and they will organize their own leadership as well. Same thing was true with pastoral work. How do you get people actually to be involved? Well, you develop them as people who can organize their own group, their own team, in order to do a particular job. This is what you try to do. So, I’m sorry. I’m, maybe, meandering a bit. JJ: No, no, I think that’s exactly what we’re [looking for?]. DH: But that’s pretty much where it is, I think. [00:43:00] So -- JJ: So, it was -- because we called it self-determination, but -- DH: Yeah. JJ: -- [by the?] Young Lords. DH: Yeah, sure. JJ: But, it sounds -- I mean, it’s similar -- DH: It’s pretty much the same. JJ: It’s pretty much the same? 28 �DH: Oh, yeah. JJ: We got a lot of ideas -- DH: Sure. JJ: -- from the Caballeros de San Juan. DH: I’m sure you did. Everything crosses over. JJ: Right. Right. DH: It all crosses over. JJ: So, okay. So, you were creating the leadership, and this is how the whole movement -- DH: Yeah. JJ: -- of the Caballeros was beginning to form. DH: That’s right. JJ: I know that my mother gave catechism classes -- DH: Sure. JJ: -- in her home (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- DH: I know, yeah. JJ: -- and I’m trying to -- so, this is where that fits in. I mean -- DH: Yeah. JJ: -- it’s connected to -- DH: Oh, yeah. JJ: -- what the Caballeros were doing -- DH: There was a lot of connection. JJ: -- at that time. 29 �DH: Yeah, all that stuff. JJ: And so, what about the retreats? I mean, how -- (inaudible) Wisconsin. What was that about? DH: I don’t know much about that. JJ: You don’t know too much about that? DH: No. JJ: Okay. DH: [00:44:00] By the time I was there, we were running the Cursillos right there in the 13th and Wabash address. [In other words?], there were some people that were still being drawn out by the Claretians to go to Indiana (inaudible) [negative?] at that time with -- JJ: The [De Colores movement?] or --? DH: Well, De Colores was us. JJ: Oh, that was you. DH: That was the Cardinal’s Committee for Spanish Speaking. But what they did there -- they moved these people out. They were not quite as attuned to what was going on in Vatican II, and [Peter?] was pretty much against what we were doing. They thought that everything should come through the Claretians, you know? But it wasn’t sufficient at that time. Claretians had done a great job -- JJ: [The Claretians is a?] -- DH: -- in the previous -- JJ: -- [priest?]? 30 �DH: Oh, yeah. (inaudible) priest. Yeah. Peter [Rodríguez?] was a wonderful guy, actually, and he eventually -- when I came back from Panama, he never had a Lenten retreat without inviting me to do the talks. So, he was a good friend, then, after that, but, at the [00:45:00] time, he called me a communist. JJ: Okay. You were called a communist? DH: [Meaning the?] organization. Yeah, right. Called me a communist. He called Jorge Prieto too. JJ: So, I don’t feel alone in that. DH: Wonderful doctor [from the?] Mexican community, was a great friend of Puerto Ricans too. Jorge Prieto. Jorge Prieto’s a wonderful man. JJ: [Oh, Dr. Jorge Prieto?]. DH: Great human being. Yeah. And so, he founded the clinics for the county hospital, and the lady that was my -- [Carmen Mendoza?], who was my secretary and Leo’s secretary, she left the office when I was leaving the office, and went and organized for the union for the city, and also helped -- she eventually helped Jorge Prieto to start the clinics for the Cook County hospital, actually. But Jorge was a great friend. When Jorge and I went to California to accompany Cesar Chavez’s march from Delano, California to Sacramento, well, some of the Hermanos went with us, and -- JJ: [00:46:00] [That’s very?] -- DH: -- some Protestant minsters went with us. JJ: I didn’t know that the Hermanos from Chicago -- DH: Right. 31 �JJ: -- went to Delano -- DH: Went there as well, yeah. JJ: -- with Cesar Chavez. DH: And we all went together, and we accompanied all -- the whole march was all Holy Week, actually, that they did this in, so I was not in a parish, so I could do this on Holy Week. So, even on Friday, I named every person that was in the group there, the marchers, actually, themselves, the people -- the Campesinos -to really do a meditation on each of the Stations of the Cross. So, we did it as we were going towards Sacramento on Good Friday. It was a tremendous experience for people, and, you know, somebody would read this passage from the text, and then they would give their own meditation based on what their life as Campesinos [was all about?], as grape pickers or as lettuce pickers, whatever they were doing. It was a tremendous opportunity. So, these people also got an opportunity to see the way [00:47:00] other people were acting, and moving, and doing things that were significant on a faith level. Some of the people were not even Catholic, but they were -- on a faith level, they were the same as everybody else was. It was a good thing for people to see, I thought. JJ: Now, you had -- Jesus Rodríguez was also from council number three. DH: Pardon? JJ: (Spanish) [00:47:22]. DH: Three. Yeah. Right. JJ: Okay. So, were you at all familiar with that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? 32 �DH: Oh, yeah. Sure. I used to go there all the time. A lot of people, I baptized there. When Kathrein wasn’t there, they would invite me to come in and baptize. My dad would always go with me too. My father would always go. Lot of the people from the different councils would come into my mom and dad’s apartment. They would play dominoes, right? There’s a great game. Capicúa (inaudible). It was hilarious, you know? But, beside that, they would wait for my mother’s lemon cream pie because my mom made great pies. She made this huge lemon merengue or lemon cream pie. JJ: I didn’t get your mom’s name. DH: Oh, yeah. JJ: [00:48:00] What was your mom’s name? DH: Virginia. Virginia, yeah. JJ: Virginia. And your father? DH: My dad was Everett. JJ: Everett, okay. DH: [It was a name from?] southern Illinois. JJ: Any brothers and sisters? DH: I had one brother, Dennis, yeah, but he was already married and off (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JJ: But she made great cream pies, you said? DH: Oh, yeah. She had great pies, and my dad would pour coffee, you know? My dad would pour the coffee, and my -- my dad died in 1968, while I was doing a Cursillo, one of my last Cursillos before I was leaving for Panama, and it was two 33 �in the morning when they called me that my dad had died. Died of a heart attack. But, you know, he was very old, so -- he died at the age of 64. My mother did not die until 92, but she knew all the people in the community. When my dad died, as a matter of fact, there were four buses that came from Waukegan. Puerto Ricans. JJ: Oh, wow. (inaudible). DH: They were [lined?] around (inaudible) Funeral Home on 53rd and Kedzie for three blocks [00:49:00] ’cause they all knew my dad. They all knew my father. JJ: (inaudible) Puerto Ricans in Waukegan? DH: Oh, yeah. From everywhere in the city, actually. JJ: From everywhere in the city. DH: All the councils. Everybody was there. Everybody came. It was like two-night wake. It was just tremendous. It was really a great tribute to my dad, great tribute to the community that we worked in, actually, we loved very much. This Puerto Rican community was -- they taught me everything I know. (Spanish) [00:49:27]. That’s what they told me. JJ: (inaudible). DH: (Spanish) [00:49:30]. I didn’t know anything. I was green. I was green. They were trying to tell me that, and I recognized that fact, you know. I really was green, and I learned from them not only a way into that particular culture but into the Mexican culture, and, when I came back from Panama, I went into a parish eventually, Our Lady of Mercy, that had 60 countries represented and 46 languages. That was Our Lady of Mercy, [00:50:00] Albany Park. So, this is the 34 �way the city is, you know? And so, you have to be very sensitive to what you’re working with and who’s coming in your door. JJ: Now, was Saul Alinsky hired? How does he [figure in?]? DH: That group was hired by Catholic Charities to help organize -- JJ: The Saul Alinsky group? DH: -- at the beginning. Yeah, that was, like, way back in the ’50s. JJ: Yeah, this was in the -- DH: And then, eventually, they -- JJ: And they were hired to do that. DH: We didn’t need them anymore. Once the Caballeros were organized, we didn’t need them very much anymore, so they left, of course. JJ: So, they were hired to help -- DH: Right. JJ: -- organize the Caballeros. DH: [That’s what they were?]. JJ: Actually, so the Caballeros -- DH: Not the Hermanos. JJ: Not the Hermanos. DH: No, the Hermanos were organized within the Caballeros -- JJ: On their own. DH: -- for the different parishes. JJ: On their own, but they -- DH: Yeah. They -- 35 �JJ: But the Caballeros were definitely organized by the -- DH: By -- JJ: -- Saul Alinsky -- DH: With Saul Alinsky’s help. JJ: With Saul Alinsky’s help. DH: Though, they were not recognized by Saul Alinsky. JJ: They weren’t? Okay. DH: Saul never organizes anybody. It’s the leadership that’s formed that organizes the people. So, it was Juan Sosa and -- JJ: So, how did -- DH: -- [00:51:00] Calvino (inaudible). Those people. JJ: So, how did that form? I mean, did he start meeting with some of the leaders? DH: Well, yeah. I’m sure they did, yeah. Leo said, “I want you to meet with this particular group of people.” And so, he met with them, and then they would just sort of say, “Well, okay. Fine.” “Now, where are you guys living? What’s your story? [Where do you want to eat?]? Where do you want to be? How are you gonna get your people involved? What are you gonna go?” You know? Saul Alinsky always asked crazy questions. There’s a great interview after his death. Studs Terkel ran an interview after his death, which is marvelous. It’s Saul asking somebody, “Do you live in this building?” And the guy said, “Yeah, where else am I gonna live?” He said, “Well, why do you live here? Do you have rats?” “Of course we have rats.” “Well, do you have any locks on the windows?” “No, there’s no locks on the windows. What are you talking about?” “Why are you 36 �living in here?” “Well, because where else am I gonna live? [I got no other place?].” And then, Saul would say to the guy, “Yeah, but [anybody else?] live with you?” “Oh, yeah. Why?” “Well, do you pay rent to live here?” “Yeah.” He says, “Of course. I don’t pay rent, they’ll kick my butt out of here.” He said, “Yeah, but if nobody pays rent?” [00:52:00] And that was the question. “Nobody pays rent. You put it all in some kind of an [grow?] fund, you know, and then we make this guy fix the damn building. That’s what we’ll do.” That’s organizing. So, that’s what you do with people when -- and you do the same thing with the church. People come in and tell you that, well, their wife goes to Mass, but they have to reason to go to Mass. Well, let’s see what Eucharist really is. Let’s see what you think it is, first of all, and then we’re gonna -- we ask questions. I don’t think you can go into a parish or into a people and ever tell them answers before they ask any questions, but you have to ask questions. You have to find out where they are first. If you can find out where they are, then you have to go with them where they are, and you grow together with them. Okay? Spirituality is nothing if it’s not solidarity. Solidarity is something very special. Solidarity means that you are willing to [00:53:00] be with this particular group or person for the rest of your life, actually. You’re willing to give yourself away to them. You’re willing to change the gift of your life into the task of what grace is. [You really need to do this?]. In Pauline theology, what Paul writes in his letters, he tells us that the nature of God is not gathering. The nature of God is giving away, that God always empties God’s self. Kenosis is the word he uses in Greek, and God gives God’s self away, but, besides that, that’s why we can be the image of God. 37 �If we give ourselves away to the people we love and truly care about, then we are what we’re supposed to be. We are human. If we relate to the people, in other words. That’s what relationship’s all about. It’s the power to give yourself away to someone else. That’s really what it’s all about. So, if you don’t understand that, you’re never gonna become human, you know? So, that’s just the way it is. JJ: So, it’s [00:54:00] not being individual. DH: Yeah. No. JJ: Individualist, I mean. DH: You have to be a person who gives one’s self away within the community and to the people you care about. That’s, I think, the way it’s supposed to be. But that’s what you do when you’re working with the Hermanos. You sort of teach them how to do that. That’s what you do when you do a retreat or a Cursillo. You try to help them to see how that’s the most important thing in their life. JJ: So, there’s a retreat. There’s a Cursillo. It’s not the same thing? DH: No. Retreats can be on any subject, but a Cursillo is a very definite thing. Here, in Chicago, it was how do you get to be a Latino who is a person of faith? In other words, how do you understand sacraments in the right way? How do you understand church in the right way? It’s not a building, and it’s not a group of people that go to a building. That’s not the church. The only word for church, Iglesia, [00:55:00] comes from a Greek word that the people that made a translation of the Hebrew Bible used for only one thing: the group of people around Moses’s tent, waiting for Moses to say, “Okay, we’re marching towards 38 �freedom today. Let’s go. Let’s go toward the promised land.” So, we’re always people on the march. We’re never people who have the security of sitting in some place. We’re the people who look for the opportunity to escape from the church and go out the door, the exit sign being above us, and we walk out, and we go change the world. That’s what we’re supposed to be doing. So, I mean, that’s pretty much what it was all about. And then, in Panama was the Cursillo de Iniciación Cristiana, [and?] people began a whole different way of looking at what their religion had been and make it into an opportunity of faith, of building something out of where they were, and going into a future that they did not know, and not being afraid of that. That’s pretty much what happened there. JJ: I want to ask you what you’re doing [00:56:00] now, but I also want to -- I just want to try to get a little more description of -- DH: Yeah. JJ: -- those first Puerto Rican parades and that community around -- DH: Oh, yeah. JJ: -- Wabash and Holy Name Cathedral. DH: Oh, sure. Right. Yeah. The cathedral. When they began the parade, for instance, it was a matter of bringing in all the different elements of the Caballeros de San Juan, the Knights of St. John, and all those guys -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DH: That’s right, and -- JJ: It was 1953. That’s what I -- DH: Right. 39 �JJ: -- discovered was the date of -- DH: Was the date of the parade. JJ: -- first parade, okay. DH: First parade. Right. And then, the second year, they went to St. -- to the parish on -- oh, where was it? What’s the matter with me? The basilica that’s -- JJ: The South Side, or is it North Side? DH: No, no, it was on -- JJ: West Side? DH: Yeah, it’s right in the middle of -- it’s actually right near the Loop, actually, but it’s on the West Side. JJ: Oh, okay. DH: It’s on the West Side. JJ: On Madison. On Madison. DH: Not on Madison, no. JJ: [00:57:00] By the Loop on the West Side. DH: Yeah, it’s on the West Side. yeah. JJ: [What’s that?]? DH: What’s the name of the parish? I know the name of the parish more than I know my own name, but I can’t [really?] think of it now. The first one began at the cathedral and did the march, and I’m not sure where it ended up. I was there, but I can’t remember where -- JJ: Well, I read that they had a dance at the Chicago Armory. I don’t know if it -- DH: That’s right, yeah. 40 �JJ: -- ended up there. DH: They did. Yeah. JJ: So, did it end up there? DH: I think it probably did. I don’t know. I don’t remember that. JJ: You think so? But I know I have -- there’s a picture of the cathedral, Holy Name - DH: Yeah. JJ: -- Cathedral, and there’s a dance at the Chicago Armory also. DH: [It was that same year?], yeah. Right. I don’t know where. This stuff confuses me (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JJ: But you said, at that time, there were already Caballeros. DH: Oh, yeah. There were different [councils?]. JJ: And several churches. Do you have any idea where they were at, or --? DH: No, I would imagine one of the places would have been St. Michael’s -- JJ: St. Michael’s. DH: -- with Kathrein. I would imagine that would be -- [second one?] would be St. Joseph’s, who had two Dominican priests. JJ: St. Joseph’s by Cabrini Green? DH: The other would be -- right. And on the South Side would have been [00:58:00] 63rd Street. That’s where they would have been. JJ: And I believe [Spanish Mass?] (inaudible). DH: I think it was either four or five councils at that time. JJ: There was a movement for Spanish Mass at Holy Name Cathedral. 41 �DH: Right. JJ: I’m asking a little difficult question. I know that the -- DH: Yeah. JJ: It was St. Michael’s. Some people said that some of the people did not want the people at the church at first, and so -- at the main chapel, so that was a reason for using the hall. DH: I don’t know. JJ: Other people explain it also that they just wanted to be separate -- DH: Yeah. Yeah. JJ: -- at that time, that they felt more comfortable, and that’s why they -- DH: Well, they had to do a Spanish Mass. JJ: Yeah, they -- was there (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? DH: Sometimes, things started in the basement, but they would eventually end up in the church. JJ: Was there any of that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? DH: I don’t know what provoked that. Kathrein would have been managing that, I wound imagine, but I’m not sure what happened. JJ: [He didn’t?] notice any type of discrimination or anything that --? DH: Not that I know of. JJ: Okay. All right. DH: Not that I know of. The people -- JJ: I mean, there was discrimination in the city, [I know?]. DH: People are sometimes -- in [00:59:00] themselves, they’re racist. 42 �JJ: Well, I don’t mean the church. I mean individuals. DH: Yeah, no, as far as the church was concerned, it wasn’t -- it was [thought of?] how people can be more comfortable in what they’re gonna do. JJ: Okay, so it was (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DH: That was pretty much the idea, I think. Yeah, I think that was what they were thinking of. At the Cardinal’s Committee, all you had were Latinos, which was great. It was wonderful. It was great. JJ: Okay, so the Cardinal’s Committee was definitely -- DH: Yeah, it was all Latinos. JJ: -- all Latinos. DH: Actually, the -- JJ: And it was [opened?] by Cardinal Stritch -- DH: It began with Cardinal Stritch, went through Meyer, and then, when Meyer died, Cody came in and pretty much let it go on, but it was a little bit different agenda. JJ: What was his reasoning for opening it up? DH: He had different ways of looking at life. He didn’t understand the council, that the theology there was gonna be different now. He didn’t understand that too well, but Meyer did understand. Meyer was also a scripture scholar, person who understood scripture very well, and he became a person who was very much against the [01:00:00] clericalism that, at times, afflicts the church, where the priests are, like, separate from the people, and would have approached more the Hélder Câmara way of looking at things. Hélder Câmara, the great bishop of Brazil, Recife, who took off all the fancy garments, you know, and carried a 43 �wooden cross and a regular suit, and went around the world that way. This sort of thing was kind of important, I think, for people as they began to look at the church. What Vatican II did was to bring out the ideas of collegiality. Now, I’m afraid the Vatican is trying to erase that, but -- which is too bad. I think it’s a shame, but that -- if you have collegiality, that means everybody’s talking to everybody, and clericalism says these people that are people that run everything, supposedly, are -JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DH: -- the only ones that talk to one another, you know? JJ: Everybody in the church is talking to everybody? DH: Well, you have [01:01:00] collegiality -- JJ: Within the church or outside? DH: -- [would mean?] everybody’s talking to everybody. JJ: Within -- DH: Collegiality would be that. JJ: Within and outside the church? DH: Within and outside, right. JJ: Yeah. Okay. DH: Well, Our Lady of Mercy -- when I was there, we eventually had the group there found a neighborhood organization. Well, the one meeting that I was there for before I moved out of Our Lady of Mercy -- JJ: Was it at Lady of Mercy? 44 �DH: At Our Lady of Mercy. It was, like, in -- oh, maybe 1997 or so, I’m sure. I left there in 2002, but, in the end of the 1990s, we had a big meeting. There must have been six, seven hundred people in the basement, and there were people from Islam. There were Jewish people. There were people from all the different languages that were there. We had at least four or five translations going on with earphones for people so that everybody would be understood. This was [01:02:00] the people that were in that neighborhood. That was in the basement of Our Lady of Mercy Church, in their hall. You know, this was kind of important, that you look at the church as something that is much more than one particular group. I think there are three things that the church has to understand no matter who they’re working with. First of all, they’re not the reign of God. The church is not the reign of God. It’s just a group that’s supposed to live the norms of the reign of God, justice, love, and compassion, ahead of time because we’re not there yet. A better world doesn’t exist yet. Every generation has to look to create a better world. Every generation is gonna have to do that. Second thing is we’re one, but we’re many. One faith, one baptism, one Eucharist, and all that, but we still have different ways of celebrating and different ways of thinking. At Our Lady of Mercy now, for instance, every single Mass has its own choir because each Mass is different, although each Mass is the same. [01:03:00] So, it’s a tension. It creates tension in the community, but that’s good tension and not bad tension. Third thing is we are -- this church, we are also an institution. In other words, we have a pope, and bishops, and all people that are supposed to be the organizers, and then we have the people who are at the door, who are 45 �new people, sometimes, and they have something to offer, and, if these people are not accepted to offer what they have to offer, the trouble is that, the danger is that the institution would become [a cadaver?], and you don’t want that to happen, ever. That make sense? I think, pretty much, those are the principles that ran the organizations of the Knights of St. John, the Caballeros de San Juan, the Hermanos en la Familia de Dios, the parishes at that time in Chicago, the way in which, I think, the Young Lords tried to support one another and act in the world ’cause they had to confront what was a white, powerful, money-possessing [01:04:00] reality in the city, you know, that they had to really confront and to live with, or against, or over. They had to be there, and they had to get something for what was the community that was being left out. There was an interesting passage that comes up in Deuteronomy all the time that the king has only one job. In other words, a leader has only one job. It’s to make sure that these people have a job, food, and roofs over their head. Who are they? Widows, orphans, and the strangers in the land. In other words, they’re supposed to look out for those who are on the edges. If they take care of the people that are on the edges -- which is something we don’t seem to understand in this country anymore, but if they take care of people on the edges, then everybody in the middle is okay. Think about it. You know, when you think about it, it’s true, but we don’t take care of the people on the edges anymore, and there are people in government and outside of government that would like to eliminate everybody that’s on the edges. [01:05:00] That’s not fair. 46 �JJ: So, how did you see the whole thing in Lincoln Park, where a lot of the -- after the community organized. DH: Yeah. Well -- JJ: The Caballeros and [Damas?] organized, and -- DH: Yeah. JJ: And then, they were displaced. I mean, how did you see that? DH: I think, in Lincoln Park and the other park area, like, even -- JJ: [In other parks?]. DH: Yeah. Well, everywhere there were Latinos, the thing was to keep them there and allow them to organize there, help them to better the community and the neighborhood in which they were living, make it a family-based community, and they seem to be doing pretty well. I think what damaged everything happened around ’68, ’69, ’70, when the drug culture began to take over, which is a horrifying thing, when you have kids becoming ill, you have people sharing needles. Even some of the greatest families in our community, you had two and [01:06:00] three children dying of AIDS, and this should never have happened. Eventually perishing, even though they were married, or they had -- but they had been sharing needles with people who had the AIDS virus, and, at that time, there were no antivirals like we have today that are helping people to survive, but that (inaudible) survive. It was terrifying. It was terrible. JJ: And why do you think that happened at that time? DH: What? I’m sorry. JJ: Why do you think that happened? 47 �DH: Why do I think that happened? Because, all of a sudden, you know, we had -- JJ: [I mean?], all of a sudden, that happened. DH: We had laws that were -- they were promoting the fact that you could not have drugs, you could not get drugs, and it was against the law to have them. And so, people started making money selling them on -- you know, where they shouldn’t be able to sell them, and you had the gangs begin, also, to take over that particular operation. JJ: Okay, but I was asking also, [01:07:00] and, again, this is [normally an?] -- DH: Yeah. JJ: -- [investigative?] thing, but, because part of the project is that -- DH: Sure. JJ: -- the neighborhood was being displaces at the time -- DH: Yeah. JJ: -- and they were trying to stabilize the -- DH: Right. JJ: -- neighborhood, so I wanted to know what you felt at that time because, eventually, here’s an organization that’s being built. DH: Right. JJ: Council number three -- DH: Yeah. JJ: -- council number nine -- DH: Yeah. JJ: -- and other councils. 48 �DH: Yeah. JJ: But, now, they’re going along with the community. They’re -- DH: Yeah. Right. JJ: -- getting displaced too. How did you think about that? DH: Well, I -- JJ: How did you see that? DH: The problem, I think, was that they eventually decided to stop the community organization reality of the Knights of Saint John, and they became a cooperative credit union, which eventually collapsed, which was sad, I thought. It was long after I left that they collapsed, but they were [01:08:00] beginning to think on that level, especially the Cheveres, and Cesar Rivera, and those people from that particular family. Gloria Chevere, who’s a judge right now, as a matter of fact. But that family decided to move the Knights of Saint John into this area of credit union, which was a good thing for people, in a sense. People could take loans and build homes, and they did, except that, then, people began to take what they were getting, and going out to a suburb, and building a home there so that, eventually, they would move out of the community in which they were. Something similar to what happens to people in Panama when you build a bridge in a community. Stuff doesn’t come into the community. All the kids escape. All the young people go somewhere else. They certainly, as the country in general, prospers. They may become doctors, and lawyers, and Indian chiefs, but the point is, you know, there they are, but [01:09:00] you thought you were building the bridge so people would be able to get their products out, and, all of a sudden, 49 �you find people not growing rice and beans anymore, doing something else, escaping, going somewhere else. So, things change. JJ: So, you didn’t see them [off?]? So, there was a push factor, and then you didn’t see the [push factor?]? DH: Well, I don’t -- JJ: I mean, [you don’t?] -- DH: -- know whether that’s possible. I think, when people decide they’re gonna be moving out, they’re gonna move out anyway. The thing is, what do they have as an instrument for living as they move out of where they are? For instance, there are people that went with us before I left for Panama to the dedication of the churches in Panama. We went there the year that Cody went there too. Cody went there and left before Martin Luther King came into the city, and we went to Martin Luther King’s presentation in the Soldier Field, and then, after that, we left for Panama. It’s okay. Take your time. (break in audio) DH: (inaudible)? JJ: Yeah. DH: Well, I think, [01:10:00] when the riot occurred, for instance, I think that Daley used it in order to put the wrong people in charge of the Puerto Rican community. They had no Hermanos or Young Lords on it. They had [Claudia Flores?] on it. Remember Claudia Flores? JJ: I remember Claudia -- 50 �DH: One of the biggest crooks in the whole city. [They were?] stealing money from people that were trying to go back to Puerto Rico to visit family, and he would -egregious, terrible costs that he would give people [and stuff?], or doing their taxes. I do not like the man at all, but those are the kind of people that Daley put on his committee after the riot ended, you know? It lasted for three days. It was over. One kid only was shot, but he wasn’t killed. He was just shot, wounded, and this all began when some kid was shot in the park by a policeman, you know? There were no cops that were sympathetic to the Puerto Rican community. None. There were no real [01:11:00] Puerto Ricans on the [committee?]. That didn’t happen until years later, when we began, in the office, actually, a preparation for young guys from the Mexican and Puerto Rican community to prepare for the exam to become a policeman and to become a fireman. JJ: You say “we” -- the Caballeros or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? DH: Well, not so much the Caballeros. By that time, they were already moving towards becoming a cooperative credit union, but the Hermanos were promoting that. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible), okay. DH: And that’s [fruit?] of the Caballeros anyway. Everything goes back to the Caballeros. JJ: Right, ’cause -- right? Today, it’s the Hermanos that are doing the work. DH: Right. Well, the Hermanos -- I don’t know whether they’re doing work now. The -- 51 �JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DH: -- group that meets at St. Hedwig’s, for instance, is like a hundred years old. Every once in a while, I go there and give talks to them, but they didn’t call me and remind me about June. I was supposed to go back there in June, but they didn’t call me this June. I have to find out what’s going on there. I’m not sure they’re still meeting. I hope they are, but they’re really an older group. But, [01:12:00] eventually, you know -- when I left, also, the charismatic movement began to come and take over for the Cursillo movement. JJ: Right, my mother was involved with that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). DH: Right. And [that’s the?] charismatic movement. JJ: What is that? What is that? Can you explain (inaudible)? DH: Well, charismatic movement is more on a Pentecostal level but in the Catholic church, where people get together, and they pray, and they sing, and they speak to God and -- supposedly in languages so that nobody understands or something, but the point is that’s fine, but that’s all emotional stuff, but we -when I went to Mercy, there was a group at Mercy that was there, but I used every single person that was in that group to become [ministry?] in the parish, and I would make sure that they got better scripture, and they got better formation, and they got all that stuff. So, they stayed in the charismatic movement, but they also became part of the parish as ministry. That’s why they have 3,000 people there now who are ministers, because you don’t tell people, “You can’t be here because you’re charismatic.” [01:13:00] What you do is you say, “Okay, fine. You want something more? Let me see how you can be a 52 �better charismatic person,” you know? “How can you do this?” So... But all this stuff -- everything comes with change, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that, but you have to know how to ask the questions about the change with faith that people are basically going to be able to make good decisions with their life. That’s what you really want, and, to do that, they have to be people of faith, whether the charismatic movement lends that to people or some other movement. Whether it’s in the church or out of the church makes no difference, but that’s what you want to have happen for people’s benefit and for the benefit of their communities and their families. So, that’s pretty much the way it is, I think. JJ: Okay. You’re at the church here now, at St. Mary of the Woods Church, or what are you doing now? I know [01:14:00] you’re retired. DH: Well, Our Lady of Mercy Church -- I just sort of live here. I do Mass in the mornings and weekends, and do the homilies, and -- but I mostly -- my particular job is to teach for the archdiocese. I teach scripture, and history, and pastoral training for people in the diaconate program and people in the lay ministry program. So, September, I start a course out in [Midland?], at the seminary, but for people up in the northern suburbs from Waukegan, and from that area, and from up near Harvard, Illinois and those places, which are really far north. So, I start a course for them on what is the Christian scriptures, the 27 books of what we call the New Testament. I did a course at the end of last year -- well, I think it was the end of last year -- at St. Stanislaus Parish for people in the Hebrew scriptures. [01:15:00] I will do a Hebrew scriptures course for people, but they 53 �meet at St. Philomena’s Parish, which is a little bit west and south of here. You know, it’s all work to be done. Get people ready, and then they graduate from that, and they eventually decide whether they’re going into the diaconate or going to be pastoral ministers in their parish area. So -JJ: So, once they graduate and become diaconate -- DH: Well -- JJ: -- [will they?] -- DH: Diaconate program is a lot longer than this particular program. It begins with this program, but this program goes on for two years. And then, if they want the diaconate, they have to do that in consultation with their parish staff, and then they get permission to start the program for diaconate, which requires a little bit more reflection, and a lot more formation, and more scripture, and more theology, more liturgy, more understanding of how to preach, how to talk to people, how to give a homily, for instance. All that [01:16:00] stuff is included, and they have, like, a five-year preparation. But what I do with the archdiocese on these occasions is the two-year course. Actually, when I came back from Panama, there was nothing. Everything had stopped. It was all in English. Everything was done in English. So, I talked to some of the priests, and we said, “Are you satisfied with this?” And they said, “No.” I said, “Well, let’s start something else.” So, [Juan Retrato?], who’s a priest from Mexico, and [Tero Keef?], and several other priests from the archdiocese here, we decided we were gonna start a course. I got [Larry?] -- [forgot?] Larry’s last name. Damn. It’s at Maternity B.V.M. Parish before we began it. We began to do courses there on 54 �scripture, and history, et cetera. We were all trained people, so we could do it. And so, we started it, and the archdiocese was questioning this. “Why are you doing this? Why are you doing this?” Well, because [01:17:00] you need this in the archdiocese. Eventually, they took it over. It became the Instituto de Liderazgo Pastoral for training for people in the entire diocese, and, also, we began a catechetical program for Latinos because they had all kinds of North American people teaching Latino kids. That’s ridiculous because Latinos [have?] just as much catechism as anybody else. Besides that, if you train them, they know a lot more. And so, the thing was, we began to train people in catechetics in Spanish, and people who were from that culture, and every child needs someone from his own culture to speak to him or her, you know? And you want parents to be involved. So, eventually, I ended up in Mercy, and we just did that constantly in Mercy. Everybody had to have their own way of doing things. Like, we had a Hispanic group. We had Filipino groups. We had Korean groups. We had everything there, and we had some things that were bilingual, some things that [01:18:00] were unilingual for a particular Mass, and other things that were trilingual. Like, the liturgy for Holy Week was always three languages -- Spanish, English, and Tagalog -- and that’s what we would do, and people -- they did the best they could with it. They did a great job, and people wanted to be there, so it was good. But that’s the way we thought it had to be, so it was a matter of rebuilding something that I thought existed when I left in 1968 but that they had destroyed in the meantime. JJ: So, you were gone from ’68, and you came back --? 55 �DH: I came back in 1982. JJ: 1982, right. (inaudible). DH: 1981, actually, but, 1982, I went to Our Lady of Mercy, and, by that time, we were trying to organize something new. JJ: I know that the Hermanos are -- you said St. Hedwig’s? DH: St. Hedwig’s now. They live there, yeah. JJ: And -- DH: Well, they work there. They go there. JJ: So, that’s their base right now? DH: Their base. Usually, they meet on Monday nights. Have you talked to them at all? JJ: [01:19:00] I talked -- DH: To those guys? JJ: -- to one of them. DH: Did you? Okay. JJ: And I do want to talk to some other -- DH: Okay, that’s good. JJ: -- people (inaudible). This project will go on for another year. DH: Yeah. Sure. Sure. JJ: So, we definitely [will contact them?]. DH: That’s good. JJ: Any final thought that we should --? 56 �DH: No, I don’t think so. I just hope that people understand what we’re trying to say, but let’s see what happens. I hope they do. JJ: (inaudible) everybody’s perspective, you know? That’s what we’re trying to do. DH: No, I think it’s a good idea to do this. I think it’s important for people to know where the organizers of things were at that particular time, and we hope people [would be now?]. So many of the Puerto Rican community has gone back to Puerto Rico and moved to suburbs, or they’re more separate now from one another than they were at that time. At that time, they were together, very much together, but, now, they’re pretty much separate, [01:20:00] or they’re gone back to Puerto Rico, where they really are together there, but that’s not the point. And, here, now, in the city, we have so many different communities. Like I mentioned before, Lady of Mercy has 60 countries, and 46 languages, and different varieties of Spanish. You have people from Quechua communities or Aymara communities, from Peru and Bolivia. You have people from all kinds of other places in Latin America. You have people from Asia, people from everywhere, so it’s [a great world?], and it’s a multiethnic church, and you have to pay attention to it. You have to help people to grow in their own culture and celebrate in their own culture, I think, and you have to help them to do it. That’s about it. JJ: I appreciate [it?]. Thank you [very much?]. DH: Thank you very much. JJ: Appreciate it. DH: Oh, you’re welcome. I don’t know whether it was very good, but -- JJ: It was very good. 57 �DH: -- we’ll see. JJ: It was very good. Thank you. END OF VIDEO FILE 58 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/2e7da8217ca2c257cc82af026c681f92.mp4 19b3328c47dccb17dcb6ae765d00eda8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Father Donald J. Headley vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Iglesia Católica. Arquidiócesis de Chicago (Ill.) Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Headley_Donald Title A name given to the resource Father Donald J. Headley video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Headley, Donald Description An account of the resource Fr. Donald Headley was first ordained as a Catholic priest in 1958 and is resident priest at the St. Mary’s of the Woods Faith Community in Chicago. He recalls meeting with Saul Alinsky and working with Rev. Jack Eagan, the founder of urban Catholic activism. He also recalls a great deal about the Puerto Rican community in La Clark that grew up through the 1950s. Fr. Headley’s work in Chicago also prompted him to spend 13 years working with the poor in the San Miguelito Mission in Panama during the late 1960s and 1970s. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Catholic Church. Archdiocese of Chicago (Ill.) Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-08-21 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives