773 24 26018 https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7933d7dfc4fee72266ba41eec6b9dfd6.pdf 71e1b14b6814ecb6129d57779ba6b533 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Marie Merrill Ramirez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/16/2012 Biography and Description Marie Merrill Ramirez was a Young Lord in the 1970s in Milwaukee, Wisconsin where she worked closely with Chapter leader and Minister of Education, Dr. Luis “Tony” Baez. The Milwaukee Chapter worked within the university (UM) but primarily focused its organizing efforts in the community around deplorable housing conditions and discrimination, youth support and development, and bilingual education. In 1969, she and a group drove from Milwaukee to New York City to attend a major gathering for Puerto Rican self-determination and connected with other travelers in Chicago’s Lincoln Park neighborhood, at the Young Lords’ People’s Church headquarters. Ms. Ramirez is currently living back in Mayaguez, where she is involved with Minh (Movimiento Independentista Nacional Hostosiano) defending organizing rights of People, especially the workers, who she feels is the main force capable of making true change. They formed their group May 6, 2004 out of two branches of the P.S.P. ( Puerto Rican Socialist Party). The Hostosianos want to make Puerto Rico a free sovereign and independent nation. Minh members organize for a better education, health, culture, jobs and housing. And they work hard to uplift activists’ awareness of the conditions. They strongly feel that all social forces must unite, if they are to bring about any change. �Ms. Ramirez and many others participated in the fight to evict the United States Navy from Vieques, in defense of the environment, in the battle against Superpuerto, against the exploitation of mines in the mountainous center of the Island, and in the struggle to free the political prisoners. During the Vieques camp occupations, she wrote in blogs and reported about the U.S. military bombings of the Puerto Rican Island. Then she wrote about the victory of the campers to force the United States Military to leave Vieques. She continues to report that the struggle continues to get the U.S. to clean up their lands and to finance health programs for Puerto Ricans dying of diseases, related to the Navy’s military contaminations. Ms. Ramirez helped to organize a Peace March and a 24 hour vigil in front of Filiberto Ojeda’s house at Hormigueros, Puerto Rico, where the F.B.I. traveled from Atlanta, Georgia and shot and killed the Freedom Fighter. She has supported the struggle for the release of the political prisoners, including Oscar López Rivera. In 2010, she joined with sports athletes, artists, lawyers, medics, journalists, teachers, motivational speakers, and students to welcome and support all athletes (especially the Cuban) athletes at the Caribbean and Central American Games in Mayagüez. Even more recently, she hosted La Tertulia, a special event for the Young Lords. It was also organized in her hometown of Mayagüez, Puerto Rico. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, if you can give me your name, your birthday, where you were born, and maybe what you have done, I mean, in terms of your [wanting the?] status or whatever. MARIE MERRILL RAMIREZ:Well, my name is Marie Merrill Ramirez. Nobody knows me by Marie, only the guys, or the people that graduated with me from la Inmaculada in Mayagüez. I’m from Mayagüez, Puerto Rico. I was born May 14, 1947. I graduated from la Inmaculada. People know me as, in the US, they knew me as Maria. My nickname from when I was a child is Marianne. And everybody knows me here as Marianne. They usually botch up my last name, so they don’t know my last name. (laughs) JJ: What is your last name? MMR: Merrill-Ramierz. [00:01:00] I was raised the first 10 years of my life going from Douglaston, New York to Mayagüez, Puerto Rico. My mother, every time, had no concept of time. So, in the middle of a semester, she would up and say, “It’s too cold for me. Let’s go home.” And we would go home. So, I alternated between the school in Douglaston and la Inmaculada. And as a consequence of that, my Spanish is bad, and my English is bad. I’ve never gotten over that. La Inmaculada was a school that had English as the basic language, and Spanish, all we had was a Spanish class. JJ: la Inmaculada was here in Puerto Rico? MMR: In Mayagüez. 1 �JJ: But English was (inaudible). MMR: In that point in time, [00:02:00] we had nuns. We had nuns. The nuns came from the US, and they would teach us in English. We would have Spanish class. We had Puerto Rican history. The only Puerto Rican history I took was when I was a senior in high school, for one semester. Um, and it was very inadequate. It was that old book by Miller, I forget his first name, which started with the Taíno and finished with the US invasion of Puerto Rico. So, it was very little Puerto Rican history. When I got to college, I wanted to go to the University of Puerto Rico in Río Piedras. But it was a time of great activity, Independentista activity in Río Piedras. My family is very conservative. Very conservative. And they wouldn’t let me go to Río Piedras. I didn’t want to stay in Mayagüez precisely because they were conservative. And I felt like I was restrained. I mean, I was tired of going out with chaperones. And I was tired where you had to report all the time. I wanted some kind of freedom. And so, they made me go to a Jesuit college [00:03:00] in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, called Marquette. And I get to Marquette. JJ: Did they have family there? MMR: I had an aunt that lived in a place called Pewaukee. And so, that’s where they got the idea of Marquette. They had had me apply to various universities. I applied to Marquette, to Georgetown, to University of Michigan, and to the University of Alaska. (laughs) I was accepted at all of them, but I was only allowed to go to Marquette. When I get to Marquette, [00:04:00] it was like a cultural clash, because even though I had lived in New York, it was a very 2 �sheltered type life. It was not in New York City; it was in Long Island. I was the only Puerto Rican around. With my last name, I was able to pass. And nobody asked questions. And so, when I get to Marquette, and I started seeing culture clashes all over the place. And I started meeting Latin American women, because on my floor, the Latin Americans were the ones that took baths every day. And the Americans didn’t take baths every day. They would take baths on Friday and Saturday. And so, when you were taking a bath every day, you heard Spanish, you talked to people from Argentina, people from Venezuela, [00:05:00] people from Uruguay. And all these women knew a lot about their history. And I felt like I didn’t know anything about my history. And so, Marquette, at that point in time, was an urban college, an old urban college. It hadn’t started with its renovation projects that had completely transformed it. And we had this old library. And the books on Puerto Rico were in the bottom of the library, in the basement. And so, I would go to this basement that was cold and damp. Other people wouldn’t go to the basement because it was cold and damp. They didn’t like it. And they would tell me, “Don’t go down there. Nobody’s down there.” But that’s where the books were. So, I would study and do my thing, and then I would grab all the Puerto Rican history books [00:06:00] that I could. I remember reading this huge book by Gordon K. Lewis, Freedom and Power in the Caribbean. I remember [Michael Iglesias’s?] books. And slowly learning my history, I was transforming myself. And what I didn’t know was that Joe McCarthy’s papers were in that library, and they were in the basement of the library. And the priest that was in charge of those papers was the only one that 3 �would be around there. And he would come and check, and without me being there, he would see the books that I had on the desk, because that was the only place that you could leave the books, and nobody would touch them, and one day I’m sitting there reading, and this guy comes up and he looked like, you know the Da Vinci Code? The monk in the [00:07:00] Da Vinci Code, this white specter monk? Well, put about 30 years on that and this priest looked just like him. And so, I looked up and I see this ghost, which then I understood why the other people didn’t want to go down there. And I screamed. And he said, “No, no, it’s okay. I’m Father O’Malley. It’s okay.” And so, he would come, and he would look at the books that I was reading and then he would ask me questions. And when people say, you know, “How did you change from being a conservative, from being from a conservative pro-statehood family to being an Independentista?” It was defending my positions against this very conservative priest and learning about my history and my culture that I hadn’t learned in Puerto Rico. It was a complete transformation for me. [00:08:00] I sat there from September 1965 to December ’65. And in December ’65, I was an Independentista and nobody had convinced me. So, I don’t believe in convincing Independentistas. I think that you come to that conclusion all by yourself when you analyze what’s going on. JJ: Okay, because you were going from New York to Puerto Rico, and from Milwaukee in Marquette? So, about how many years were you there? MMR: I was at Marquette from 1965 with a couple of breaks to 1971. In September of ’70, I went to Madison. I didn’t last at Madison. It was just [00:09:00] way too 4 �cold for me. I just couldn’t take it. The wind, and the 50 below chill factor and all that, it was worse than Milwaukee. I just couldn’t. There was no way I could take it. JJ: Where were you in Milwaukee? And what years were you in Milwaukee? MMR: Well, the problem, I took some breaks. In 1970, my folks in Mayagüez sold a big piece of land. I had just graduated from college, and they said, “Well, you know, here’s a prize. Do something with it. Here’s some money. Do something with it.” I had, at Marquette, a bunch of friends that were going to go get married and they were from different parts, from the International Students Club. Because at Marquette, I never quite fit in. I knew I was not American. I knew I was Puerto Rican. [00:10:00] JJ: How did you know [you were different?]? MMR: Well, I knew I was different from the other girls in the dorm. I had never confronted racism before. When I get to Marquette, I get to this room with a girl from New York and I walk in with my aunt and my mother. And my mother looked just like I do now. My aunt was blonde and blue-eyed. And we started speaking Spanish and the girl looked at me up and down and she said, “Where are you from?” I said, “I’m from Puerto Rico.” And she said, “Oh.” And then she left. And a day later they moved her out of the room. And I didn’t know why. In front of me was one of the only Black women in the dorm. [00:11:00] And she didn’t have a roommate either. And so, I was disturbed because I didn’t want my folks to have to pay for a single room. I wanted them, you know, to pay for a double room. So, I go to the woman in front, and I said, “Well, you know, how 5 �come this lady left?” And the girl was from Kentucky. And she said, “Honey child, don’t you know the facts of life?” And I said, “What facts of life?” You know, “The girl was from New York. Don’t you know the facts of life?” I said, “No. Que paso? You know, what happened?” And she explained to me. And it also explained why some women wouldn’t have anything to do with you and others would. And I had never confronted that before. And so, that also radicalized me. I remember the first picket I ever went to in my life was to the Eagles Club in Milwaukee, [00:12:00] Wisconsin, because I was going out with this Dominican guy, and we wanted to go to, I don’t know, some dance at the beginning of school. And when he went to get the ticket, they wouldn’t sell him the ticket. And then we found out that the Eagles Club didn’t accept Blacks or Hispanics. And I got hopping mad. I have a bad temper, and so I got hopping mad, and I went with my friend that called me honey child, we went to this picket, and a guy from Haiti went with us. And I remember the Blacks seeing these Puerto Ricans coming to the picket, was looking at us like, you know, “Qué pasa que, why are you here? And so, I explained to this lady that was saying, “You can’t come into this picket,” [00:13:00] I said, “I’m Puerto Rican. We can’t go to this thing either. We are minorities too.” And she kind of looked at me weird. But they let me, and they let us into the picket. And I remember that picket. It was very cold. And I remember having -- it was my first picket. I’ve gone to millions of pickets since then, but that was the first one I went to. And it was the cultural clash of a Puerto Rican coming in from Puerto Rico and all of a sudden having this brand on you that you are a minority student when in your life you’ve 6 �never been a minority student, you know? And it was a very confining brand to me. I hated it. I didn’t like it. JJ: The term itself? MMR: The term itself. I hear that they’re calling us POC now. I don’t want to be called POC. I’m Puerto Rican. I’m Puerto Rican. I’m not Puerto Rican American, nothing like that. I have no loyalty to the US. [00:14:00] My loyalty is here. JJ: Actually, I just heard that they’re coming out with a whole new station, a whole channel for Puerto Rican Americans, Dominican Americans. That’s what they’re using. I never heard that term before, Puerto Rican Americans. MMR: I never heard that term Puerto Rican Americans. Years later, I had this sociology teacher in Texas, Hirsch, Herb Hirsch. And he did stuff on racism, and he came to me, “Puerto Rican.” No, we don’t use that term. I also feel very uncomfortable when people say, “I’m of Puerto Rican descent.” When somebody tells me, “I’m of Puerto Rican descent,” I’m very visual. What comes into my mind is this propeller plane up there [00:15:00] and then this jíbaro with his, what you call it, su pava coming down this ladder, and down there is the map of Puerto Rico. That to me, is Puerto Rican descent. You know, I just -- it doesn’t go with me. You’re either Puerto Rican or you’re not. It’s not a coat that you put on and off. It’s something you were born with. You know, it’s not something to be questioned. And people that are. That are from the States and say they’re Puerto Rican, even, they’re born in Chicago, Timbuktu, whatever, you know, I go with Juan Antonio Corretjer, Boricua en la luna. You identify yourself as Puerto Rican, I accept your identification. I’m not going to, you know -- 7 �JJ: What is Boricua en la luna? I heard that that’s-- MMR: “Boricua en la luna” is a poem that Juan Antonio Corretjer wrote for the Rodriguez sisters, Ida Luz and Alicia, that were from Chicago. And he wrote this poem, I think, after visiting them in jail, I’m not sure. I’m not sure how he wrote the poem. And then Roy Brown went and put beautiful music to Corretjer’s poem. And it says, it don’t matter if you were born on the moon. You say you’re Puerto Rican; you’re Puerto Rican. You know, you identify with what’s going on here. You love this land. I’ll accept it. There’s too many Puerto Ricans that were born in Puerto Rico, live in Puerto Rico, and are very sorry that they’re not Americans. I’ve seen them. I mean, I’ve seen Puerto Rican legislators that don’t know how to speak English yet [00:17:00] they’re statehooders. You know, I think it’s absurd. JJ: So, when did you graduate? MMR: I graduated from Marquette in ’69. By January of 1970, with the money that they gave me, a friend of mine from the Philippines and I bought this ticket with Swiss Air, that, it was very cheap then, that as long as you went in one direction and started in one place and finished in the other, you could make as many stops as you wanted. So, literally from January to, oh, I guess end of August -- no, January to September, middle of September 1970, I went around the world, and I visited all these different countries. You know, India, Egypt, Greece, all of Europe, Philippines, I spent a month in Philippines, Iran, because we went to a wedding in Iran. [00:18:00] And it was a complete learning experience. I had gone to Europe before because as I said, my family was upper middle class. 8 �And when you’re 15 years old, they say, “Do you want a debut or what do you want?” And I’m not a debutant type. JJ: What is a debut? I don’t understand. MMR: Fifteen-year-old like quinceañera, the quinceañera. I’m not the quinceañera type, you know, I just never been the quinceañera type. And so, my mother said, “Well, do you want to go to Europe? Asociacion de Maestros has these summer tours of Europe. Why don’t we do that?” And so, we had gone, and we’d gone to Mexico, and I visited a whole bunch of places. But that was my big trip. [00:19:00] That was my big trip. That was my big learning place. When you’re on an island, you’re isolated and, you know, it was things I learned then I’ve been using the rest of my life. I think it was a good choice. It was a good choice. JJ: So, did you receive your bachelor’s? MMR: No, no, I. I got a bachelor’s and a master’s from Marquette. And then I went onto -- which was included in the masters, I went in 1972 to Chile, and I went to the Universidad Católica de Chile, and spent I guess two semesters there. I was supposed to only spend one. And then from there, in June of 1973, after there had been a coup attempt in Chile, [00:20:00] and the Bordaberry Uruguay had given over the government to the military. A friend of mine and I crossed the Andes, crossed Argentina, and went to Uruguay. And in Uruguay -- I don’t think I really completed a semester because Uruguay was up in arms. The Tupamaros had been wiped out. JJ: Who were the Tupamaros? 9 �MMR: The Tupamaros were the urban guerrillas. And today one of the head of the Tupamaros, Jose Mujica, is now president of Uruguay. And his wife Lucia Topolansky, who was also a Tupamaro, and they both spent 13, 14 years in jail, are the government of Uruguay. But in that time, they were in jail already. [00:21:00] When we got to Uruguay, there was a general strike going on. And I went to the university because I had a student visa, and I had to do something with my visa. But in October, an engineering student was making a bomb at the university, and it blew up in his hands or something. So, they shut down the university and it didn’t reopen, I think -- I’m not sure -- until the next semester. And the next semester, I left in May. I left in May and went up to Texas. And in Texas I completed, after many years, a doctorate. And I was a teaching assistant there. I was an instructor there, Chicano politics. I worked with the Chicanos there, with the Texas migrant workers. I went to Mexican American Youth Organization, but they kicked [00:22:00] (break in audio) because I was not a Chicana. JJ: That was the only reason they gave you? MMR: Yeah. JJ: I recall that (inaudible). MMR: Yeah, yeah, no, no, I wasn’t Chicana, I wasn’t Chicana, so they kicked me out of MAYO. So, we started our own organization. We had two organizations in Texas, and we were part of the PSP, then. Because in ’71 MPI changed to PSP. And we had this innocuous type of graduate student organization which was called the Puerto Rico Graduate Students in the Social Sciences. And we were 10 �the ones that did all of the political stuff. And we would make alliances with the Blacks, the Palestinians, the Chicanos, anybody. And then there was a general Puerto Rican organization which was more like a social organization. [00:23:00] And in ’85, ’84, ’85, I leave Texas, come to Puerto Rico. By that time, I’d gotten married. I had one child called Claudio [Betanze?]. JJ: We didn’t get your parents’ names in here. MMR: My what now? JJ: Your parents’ names. MMR: Oh, my mother name is, or was, [Josefina Famili Quiles?]. My father’s name was Ernest Merrill Schmidt. JJ: Josefina Famili Quiles? MMR: Famili Quiles. JJ: (inaudible) MMR: So, we’re probably familia. JJ: (inaudible) my sisters are married to Quiles. MMR: Okay. Is he from Mayagüez or is he -JJ: From here. MMR: And my Quiles have blue eyes. JJ: They’re from all around, yeah. The whole block is Quiles. But then there’s some [Loquiles?] and [00:24:00] -- MMR: Well, in back of the Mayagüez mall there’s a sector, Sector lo Quiles. And I know that the Quiles are there from at least 1800 or more. Yeah, because it’s old. 11 �Jose Mon Quiles is the first Quiles I found there. And he lived in back of the Mayagüez mall, and there’s a big Sava where his plantation was. JJ: Oh, he had a plantation. MMR: Yeah, he had a small plantation. Yeah, he was an hacendado. And my grandmother -JJ: Hacendado? MMR: A proprietor of a plantation. Okay? And my great-grandmother was his house slave. And he was 70 years old, and he never had any kids. And all of a sudden, he has a daughter, [00:25:00] which is my grandmother. We’re talking about 1875 or -- yeah, because freedom came in ’78 or ’73, I have dyslexia and the numbers with me -- okay. My grandmother was born three years before. And at one point in time, we had the papers where he recognized her and made her and her mother, and her sisters, who weren’t his, free. So, I tell my kids, we know the color of our skin this generation, but we don’t know the color of our skin other generations, you know? And if she was free, she was Black and she was probably Indian. So, I’m white this generation, but I don’t know what [00:26:00] I was, what color my ancestors were. And I don’t know what color my grandkids will be, which is very Puerto Rican. I like it because here before, before they had these things where they could look at your stomach and they tell you if it was a girl or a boy, we had two surprises. You had the surprise of girl or boy, and what color he’d be, or she would be. And I think that’s one of the neat things of Puerto Rico. You know, I’m very eccentric in that, but I think so. I think so. JJ: And before that, (inaudible)? 12 �MMR: Well, I was going to ask you that. JJ: No, you were going to ask me. Let’s come back to it. MMR: Well, where was I? Oh, [00:27:00] I was having my kids. Okay. I had another kid in Texas. His name is Jose Gabriel Tupac. He was born in August of 1980, and he is named after Túpac Amaru because Túpac Amaru started his organization of his rebellion around August of 1980. November is when it was in full swing. Didn’t last long. But I always thought Túpac Amaru was one of my heroes. JJ: Now you went to the first picket, but were your parents at all activists? MMR: No, my parents were, how do I say? I met Luis Ferré because he was in the living room of my uncle’s house playing piano. You know, these guys were statehooders. They were friends of [00:28:00] García Méndez. You know, they were from the good families of Mayagüez, which I have no reverence for. JJ: Good family meaning they had (inaudible)? MMR: They had some money. Yeah, my family came into money because they had lands, and they sold the lands, and stuff like that, you know. But I had this background. I had this background of all my youth. They were statehooders. And in my hometown, we have two big leaders. One came much later when they freed him, Trafalcan san Miranda. The other one was Juan Mari Brás. And I grew up with Juan Mari Brás being the devil. And the only one that ever defended Juan Mari Brás [00:29:00] was one of my mother’s good friends who was his aunt, Doña Mayan. And when the old ladies would get together and talk and whatever, and Doña Mayan was there, she would stand up, if they said 13 �anything against Juan Mari Brás, she said, “(Spanish), [00:29:19] don’t touch Jonnie,” which was his nickname. So, for me, at my house, that was bad. That was the devil. You didn’t even touch them, you know, you had respect for Doña Mayan, because, after all, it was not her fault that she was his aunt, you know, but it was there. JJ: So, this is in Mayagüez? MMR: This is in Mayagüez. JJ: So, he’s from Mayagüez. MMR: Juan Mari Brás is from Mayagüez. The Mayagüezanos are like the Viequesens. The Viequesens are very exclusive, very, “Yo soy de Vieques, yo soy Viequesens” [00:30:00], [00:30:01] and the Mayagüezanos are very Mayagüezanos. And Juan Mari Brás and Mingo Vega and a lot of the people. And Pupa, Pupa, Traval, Nazario, and Trafalcan san Miranda are all from Mayagüez. And if you hear them talk, Mayagüez is going to come up there in some reference. Because we’re proud of being Mayagüezanos, you know? And we’re very Mayagüezanos. We, no matter where we are, we are Mayagüezanos. And you could see it in the discourse of the MPI, that was the Movimiento Pro Independencia was founded in Mayagüez. And in a very Puerto Rican twist, it was founded in whatchamacallit, Pupa, [00:31:00] Providencia Trabal is a spiritualist, a medium. And MPI was founded in Pupa’s house, which was the Centro Espiritista. JJ: (inaudible)? 14 �MMR: No, no, it was el Centro. It was where she had her seances and stuff. She said, “Well, you know, El Centro is big enough to have these people here,” so the 11th of January, I think it was 1959, Mayagüezanos, or people from all stripes gathered at El Centro Espiritista of Pupa. And they founded the MPI. And what is interesting is that when you look at the FBI COINTELPRO papers, they have no idea that the MPI was founded the 11th of January. So, it tells me that none of the folks there was a chota, was a stool pigeon. JJ: (inaudible)? MMR: They put the founding of the MPI in the more public meeting in Ponce, [00:32:00] six or seven months later. But by that time there was something like 20 MPI missions all around Puerto Rico. And so, Mayagüezanos have always been proud of, you know, we are more liberal than the rest. [Fort Lares?] in 1868, the bulk of the people came from Mayagüez. And when you look at the people that are arrested, you see Mayagüez, Mayagüez, Mayagüez. Maybe it’s because it’s the farthest from the capital, or because during that time the economy of Puerto Rico was in the west, it was not in the population. It was not in San Juan. When you look at 1820, 1868, and you look at the population figures, San Germán is the largest town. Mayagüez is bigger than San Juan. San Germán is bigger than [00:33:00] San Juan. San Juan is just an administrative center. It’s only after that and a little before the 1880s that San Juan gets prominence, and after the US invasion, San Juan gets prominence. But before that Puerto Rican history, the people were in the west, they weren’t in San Juan. San Juan was the administration. So, that maybe that explains a little bit of what Mayagüezanos 15 �feel, because we have -- if you look at all the municipalities in the west, each of the municipalities in the west have their [proced?]. San Germán, [Loíza?], Añasco, Mariana, Mayagüez has Hostos, has [Huskevara?]. Now we have Juan Mari. JJ: Of course, that’s (inaudible). [00:34:00] MMR: Yeah, we have important people that were Independentistas, and they came from those towns. [Omniveras?] has [Louis Bebes?], Aguadilla has [Diego?]. The west has their proced. JJ: And Hostos, you said, was where? MMR: Hostos is from Mayagüez. Eugenio María de Hostos was born in Río Cañas, Caguas. And Juan Cruz Rivera, which we called El General, fought in Cuba in the war for independence. He got to be general in that war. He was the general [Empinandez Rio?]. He got to be governor of La Havana. They made a special law in Cuba allowing him to take a position in the Cuban government, even though he was from Puerto Rico. So, we have that history. And the MPI was formed in Mayagüez. And to this day, Mayagüez has a different kind of atmosphere than the rest of Puerto Rico. The left in Mayagüez [00:35:00] has a higher tendency of working together than the left where the leaders are in San Juan. JJ: Because they’re closer, or because of what? MMR: Because it’s the same shoes in the street. When we have a demonstration and I look to the side, I see the guy from PIP. I see Luis Ibrahim next to me. When I look and I see the, whatchamacallit, [Gisela?] from [Miya Mesete?] on the other 16 �side. I see the guys from La Nueva Escuela. I see [Don Gila?] and the old nationalists there. When we call a demonstration, everybody comes. There’s no such thing of, “Oh, MINH called a demonstration. Let’s not go.” We work together. We like to work together. And in the mother organizations in San Juan, [00:36:00] especially in PIP and MINH, they look at us like, “You can do that? We can’t. You can do that?” Right now, at this point in time, there’s a bust of de Diego be in front of the college in Mayagüez. The rector of the college said that that bust wasn’t his, he wasn’t going to take care of it. So, [Manuele Escuela?], El MINH and El PIP are the ones that went, and we put flowers around the bust. We go every month and cut the grass. We put the flowers nice. And it’s everybody. FUPI is in on this too. If the group was founded in Mayagüez and the people there are from [00:37:00] Mayagüez, we work together. If the group has a lot of people from San Juan, you have some problems, but not many. Not many. Because we have all realized that if we don’t work together, you’re just going to have six or seven people at a picket. That’s not that good. JJ: Back in the ’60s, when the Young Lords started in Chicago, the only thing we heard about was MPI (inaudible), but we knew almost nothing. We just kind of knew their names. We knew they were protesting and that. But what were some of the actions that they were taking and why, during the ’60s? MMR: MPI during the ’60s? During the ’60s, the Movimiento Pro Independencia, there was the controversy of the minds, in [00:38:00] Adjuntas and Utuado where MPI, led by Juan Mari Brás, and with the help of many other organizations, literally 17 �won that fight. The young people went door to door in Adjuntas and Utuado. Alexis Massol and his people were there. And they literally prevented open pit mining in the middle of Puerto Rico because there was copper there. There was also the controversy of the super port in Aguadilla. And there it was PIP, MPI and a whole bunch of -JJ: What’s a super port? What was it? MMR: They were going to make a really huge super port where these big boat tankers and stuff could go. And it would have ruined the bay in Aguadilla. And that was another fight. There was also the fight against the Vietnam War. There was also the whole bunch of student protests at that time against ROTC, which [00:39:00] FUPI, which at that point in time, FUPI was very close to MPI. JJ: I knew the building was burned down. MMR: The building was burned down. Antonia Martinez was killed. JJ: How did that happen? I remember hearing --(inaudible) MMR: Okay, there were people running down the streets, these little streets of Río Piedras, she’s on a balcony. She sees this cop beat somebody up. She yells down, “Don’t beat him up. You’re a moron,” or something like that. Guy went and shot her. What is really interesting about this is that the cops involved in that, that never came out publicly, but we know, were El Amolao, who was later mayor of Cataño [00:40:00] and the mayor of Canóvanas now were those two cops. And there was also, at that point in time, in Puerto Rico, there’s always been these mobs, okay? And in the turn of the century, they call them the turba republicanos, the republican mob. And it was turn of the century when Barbosa 18 �and Muñoz Rivera were around. Barbosa literally paid these guys; his name was Jose Mauleon. And Jose Mauleon would follow Muñoz Rivera everywhere he went and burn and break into and a whole bunch of things. And these mobs had their successors in the 1960s commanded by a guy called [Palerm?]. They called him El General [00:41:00] Palerm. And at one point in time, the MPI headquarters was at -- I think it was ’69, I’m not sure -- Dates and me don’t -headquarters was in the Plaza of Rio Piedras. The mob surrounded the Plaza de Rio Piedras with the police watching, and they were shooting, literally shooting, inside the building. Some people were shot. And they were going to burn the building down. And there is a story going on around that somebody, I don’t know if it’s [Gadissa?], somebody called, had the phone number of Rosarito Ferré, who was the daughter of the Governor Ferré at that time. They got to her, she got to her father, her father got the people out. Told his people -- his people [00:42:00] -- told his people that that was too much, to get out. There was also, oh, something about [Chepa Delitisi?] has this in a book. And there was, I think it was something like 157 incidents of, whatchamacallit, of statehooders and their repression against Independentistas, and Impresora Nacional, the printing press of Claridad was bombed I don’t know how many times, was set afire I don’t know how many times. JJ: So, you mean the statehooders were doing what (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? MMR: The statehooders were exactly -- no, they were Escuadrón de la -- there were murder squads in the Puerto Rican police that was pro-statehood. Alejo 19 �Maldonado, Cerro Maravilla, [00:43:00] [Caraballo?], who was a labor leader,they found him tortured in El Yunque. They killed [Muñoz Barela?] in 19 -- I think it was ’77, ’78, Muñoz Barela was a Cuban that had come to Puerto Rico when he was very young, and he was in [barria Antonio marcello?], he started the travel agency to have Cubans go to Cuba. And they killed him. And it was Cuban exiles together with the extreme right. And in that extreme right were [Granados Navedo?], [Mesla Dorondo?], a guy that they took out of Puerto Rico after he was pointed at, his name is Diaz Olmos, Luis Felipe, [00:44:00] or something Felipe Diaz Olmos. They called him [Aype?]. Freddy Valentin, from Mayagüez. In Mayagüez in 11th of (break in audio) 1975, Doris Pizarro is the head of PSP in Mayagüez at the time. Freddy Valentín comes by -- you should interview Doris on this, and she’ll tell you, Freddy Valentín would come by and say, “Hey, I left you a little present, I left you a little present.” And Doris and everybody went all around the plaza, all the buildings around the plaza looking for the damn present. A little bit down from the plaza was a place called Central Drive-In, that was owned by [Mulet?] who is the father of Elaine [Mulet?] which is the communications leader in MINH, now. And in the garbage can there was a bomb and the bomb went off. [00:45:00] It injured 11 people, it killed two- Milli Hughes’s husband, [Chabanje?] and one of the workers in the Central Drive-In. There was drive by shootings all the time. And this was the Puerto Rican right with the Cuban exiles, Abdallah was in on it, and the FBI and Puerto Rican police. This was all part of COINTELPRO. JJ: So, the FBI was doing drive-by shootings? 20 �MMR: Yeah, Cerro Maravilla, the FBI was watching. The FBI was there. They would create these groups that they said that were terrorist groups, they weren’t, to confuse everybody. They were in on it. COINTELPRO shows it. They were in on it. They were in on Cerro Maravilla only we haven’t touched them. [00:46:00] JJ: They would create terrorist groups? MMR: They would create terrorist groups that would do terrorist acts, and then they would say that it was the left when it was the right. JJ: It was them, basically. MMR: The left was doing things, but it was confusing. You couldn’t figure out who had done what. JJ: In the United States, they brought provocateurs that would go to demonstrations and create riots. MMR: Here in Puerto Rico, they had them. JJ: They had groups. MMR: Yeah, here in Puerto Rico, Alejandro Gonzalez Malavé was the guy from, whatchamacallit, from Cerro Maravilla. He was recruited when he was 13 years old. JJ: Actually, we did have the Young Lords, there was a group that were called the Comancheros that wore blue berets. We wore purple. And they were next door to our church in Chicago, which is what you’re saying. But they were not sophisticated. MMR: No, no, these guys were sophisticated. These guys were sophisticated. That Puerto Rican police [00:47:00] with the FBI, with the knowledge of the FBI, went 21 �and recruited at least five 13-, 14-year-olds, because at that point in time, we had a student organization called FEPI, which was in the high schools. FUPI was for college, FEPI was for the high school. They would go to intermediate school and recruit. They recruited five, at least five. At least five, which is something that I’d never seen in any of the papers or anything in the US, nothing. Nothing like that. Then we had Claridad. And Claridad, in a sense, saved the movement a lot of times because all those anonymous letters, remember the anonymous letters that COINTELPRO would put out all over the place? JJ: Could you [00:48:00] explain a little bit about -- MMR: COINTELPRO, Counter Intelligence Program by the FBI started in the ’50s with the Communist Party, went on to the Socialist Workers Party, and the third one that came in, in 1961, was the Puerto Rican Independence Movement. And before then the FBI had this other program, which is called COINFILE, which was to get information. And so, they had files on all the Puerto Rican leaders since the beginning of time, even since the Spanish times. Since the Spanish times, Puerto Rican Independentistas have been persecuted. In Spanish times, we know of Betances, and we know when Betances came from Paris, he was exiled in Paris, but he came in 1880 on a trip to the Caribbean. At that point, the port of call for everybody [00:49:00] was St. Thomas. And the Spanish had police in St. Thomas. When Betances gets to St. Thomas, a Spanish man-o-war follows his little boat everywhere he goes through the Caribbean for at least three or four months. And then when he comes back to St. Thomas and goes to Spain, the boat, the Spanish ship left. But can you imagine what that would cost, or what 22 �that cost the Spanish in that time to follow around one man with a whole boat, to the Dominican Republic, to Haiti, to the places that he went to in the Caribbean. The Puerto Rican Independence Movement has been repressed since before 1868, since the 1820s, since the time when we had María Mercedes Barbudo, who was a woman of 50 years old. She was a merchant in San Juan. She was pro-independence. She was a friend of [00:50:00] Bolívar’s. And she had to be exiled- or the Spanish put her in jail in Cuba and then she went into exile in Venezuela. And today she is buried in the cathedral in Venezuela. And since the time of María Mercedes Barbudo. So, when people tell me, “Well, there’s so few Independentistas,” I say, “Well, it’s a miracle that we’re still around.” Juan Mari Brás, leader of PSP, MPI, they would follow him 24 hours a day. If you look at FBI papers and you see something called “June Mail,” that’s the one they’re following 24 hours a day. They would go to the schools where his kids were. They would tell him, “You know that that guy is a son of Juan Mari Brás?” And the worst thing they did to Juan Mari Brás, in March of, I think it was 1976, they killed his eldest son. [00:51:00] JJ: I read something about that. MMR: Yeah, Santiago Mari Pesquera. He was 23 years old. He was a pilot. This Cuban exile said that he had killed him. But the Cuban exile that said that was crazy. He didn’t know how to drive. And so, the question is, how did he get Santiago Mari Pesquera’s body from Coupe de Caguas], which is quite a ways. And the FBI knows who killed him, knows who said that would kill him, and what they wanted to do was destroy the movement and destroy the head of the 23 �movement at that point. The most effective head of the movement at that point, and he was Juan Mari Brás. And he was from Mayagüez. When I did my dissertation, I did my dissertation on FBI [00:52:00] COINTELPRO. I organized his papers. He was my friend. Until the day he died at the last week of March. He was completely depressed. You could not go to his house then, because his eldest son had been killed. And he felt like his eldest son, “He was killed because of me.” Okay? And in all this time, as a reaction to all this stuff, we had a series of guerrilla groups that were here in Puerto Rico. The first was CAL, Commando Armadas de Liberación Nacional. After he died, his son, Juan Raul Mari Pesquera revealed that one of the heads of CAL [00:53:00] had been Juan Mari Brás. The guy that signed all the communiques was Alfonso Beal. Beal, the last name comes from the [dances Albizo?]. Alfonso was a name of one of Juan Mari Brás’s antepasados. But CAL did not have one leader. It had a group of leaders. And we’ve lost some of them. Others are still alive. So, we don’t say -- CAL was never penetrated. It would do things like when the first supermarkets came into Puerto Rico, because the supermarkets took away so many jobs of Puerto Ricans. They would blow them up and do other types of actions. After that, we had Ejército Popular Boricua, or Los Macheteros, which was headed by Filiberto Ojeda Ríos, [00:54:00] who was killed in 2005, September 23, in Hormigueros, and whose house, a group of people from the west, many organizations, take care of the house to this day. Cha-Cha, if you ever want to go to the house, we can do that. But it’s been a big struggle in Puerto Rico. And I think that I saw a film on COINTELPRO in Puerto Rico the other day, and it 24 �ignored most of the struggle here on the island. It concentrated on Chicago and New York. But the struggle has been here. The struggle has been here when an Independentista knows that to be an Independentista it costs you. You don’t get money from the movement. You give money for [00:55:00] the movement. You get satisfaction of doing something that is good for your soul, good for your conscience, but you don’t get satisfaction of money. The Puerto Rican left is not like the US left that goes to foundations and this. No, no, no. We make our own stuff. For example, me, in Mayagüez, has a little house. We pay water and light for the little house by going and recycling cans. And it’s worked. We tell the companeros when they come on Wednesday to the meetings, bring your cans. And they do. And because of the circumstances that Puerto Rico is passing now, many of our members pay their dues in cans. That’s fine. You know? You don’t have the money, fine. Give me your cans. Go around your neighborhood and get your cans. And for two years we’ve been able to pay light and water with cans. [00:56:00] We also have a bazaar, which this Friday we’re having a bazaar, which is things that donated. Folks donated, and we don’t sell anything more than 10 dollars. The clothes go for a dollar. FUPI comes, every once in a while, and gets T-shirts and stuff for a dollar. The people in the neighborhood are now patronizing, I think. We also have doctors and nurses from MINH, which are usually busy doing their things and can’t come to the meetings or can’t give much time, yet they give us three hours a month. And we’ve been going to different barrios in Mayagüez and doing a simple health fair, where you take blood pressure, sugar, oxygen count, the sugar, diabetes count. 25 �JJ: So, you’re (inaudible). MMR: Yeah, we have that program. [00:57:00] JJ: That was [started by you guys?]. MMR: Yeah. What we do with the health program is we go with our tarp, we put it up, we put our MINH sign in back, because we don’t go to a place without identifying ourselves. Because we found out that if you go to a place, you don’t say you’re Independentista, you don’t say you’re MINH, and then later the people find out, they don’t like it. So, we are honest. We go with that. We go with a whole bunch of information on health and with our little thing that’s called [Capá Prieto?], our monthly magazine called Capá Prieto. And we have a special Capá Prieto for the health fair. We have Hostos, who is from Mayagüez, on one side, and Juan Mari Brás, who is from Mayagüez, on the other. And then we go with this little oposculo, a little flyer, that says “MINH health policy.” [00:58:00] But we have about 25 things on diabetes, on hypertension, on anything heart, bad circulation, cancer, anything like that. That’s the bulk of our information. We have three things that are MINH. The banner and the two informations. And this is our fourth or fifth time and we’ve been through there. And the least amount of people that we have helped out is 50. I think that’s great. And then we have a program of [See Me?], a film, film in the plaza, which we have the second Friday of each month, and we have a Puerto Rican film there. And we advertise it, and we put it right in the middle of the plaza. The mayor has been good enough to give us 50 plastic chairs. And we just put our screen up, put our whatever it is up, and we do a film that was made in Puerto Rico. What we did this month was 26 �on [00:59:00] [Carlo Pescavara?], and his campaign to free him from 31 years of prison. And then each month, we have a [Bien asustado?], which is on different topics. We’ve talked about the Marshall Islands; we’ve talked about the new political parties that are coming in. We talked about corruption in Puerto Rico and what it costs you, anything. And we have that in the law faculty in Mayagüez. I don’t know how much more time we’ll have it there because it looks like Ana G. Mendez, the private university, is going to take it over. That’s something we’re going to fight. JJ: Ana G. Mendez is (inaudible)? MMR: Yeah, Ana G. Mendez is like this big pulpo that comes in and takes everything over. And the faculta is important to us because it was literally [01:00:00] a Mayagüez movement of lawyers and other activists to do a law faculty that concentrated on social justice. JJ: I wanted to -- MMR: Let’s go back to the Young Lords. JJ: Yeah, let’s talk about the Young Lords here, but before that, can you mention a little bit about the letters (inaudible)? There’s (inaudible) on COINTELPRO, you were talking about some letters that were being sent out. MMR: Okay. There were a whole bunch of anonymous letters that were being sent out accusing various leaders of doing various things, of robbing the organization, of going out with women that weren’t their wives, anything they could get their hands on. And these letters in the Black Panther movement resulted in fights, resulted in murders. But here we had Claridad. [01:01:00] And Claridad is now 27 �the oldest newspaper in Puerto Rico. It’s going to be 51 years old. And Claridad had two sections. They had section that said, “Know your stool pigeon,” (Conoce su chota?). [01:01:14] And in the various towns, when they found one of these police provocateurs, they would get the picture and publish it in Claridad so that you would know your stool pigeon. And then they would take these anonymous letters, and they would publish. JJ: Sort of like we call pick of the month, pick of the year. MMR: Yeah, pick of the year, pick of the month. And then they had, they would take these letters, these anonymous letters, and publish them and say, “This is the CIA letter.” But before they published the letters, it’s very interesting with the independence movement, [01:02:00] because the leaders on top are all fighting. But when you go to the different towns, the people in the towns many times react like we do in Mayagüez. We know the other guys; we respect the other guys. We fight with the other guys, but we know that they’re more attuned to us than somebody else. And so, they would go with the letters to the different organizations, and they would say, “This is signed by your organization. Would you please find out if you guys wrote it?” And so, the guys from the bottom, the rank and file, would go, and they would find out if these letters or these anonymous letters were written by their group. If not, they would come back and say, “No, we didn’t write it.” And the other group would be tolerant enough to accept this, okay? And then it would be published in Claridad, and they’d say, “This is a CIA letter.” They always referred to the CIA. [01:03:00] They didn’t refer to the FBI. 28 �JJ: This is during the ’60s. MMR: This is during the ’60s. So, the fights between the Socialist League, and the MPI, and the Nationalists, yeah, fights occurred. But a whole bunch of fights that the FBI wanted to provoke did not occur. JJ: So, there was no split in MPI. MMR: There were splits. JJ: Like, general splitting, (inaudible)? MMR: There were splits, but usually they were conscious of who’s the enemy, and they were -- it’s not like Martin Luther King, when he would go and somebody would go and try and find a job at the SCLC, and he would go to the local FBI office and he’d say, “Would you see if this guy is good or not?” Never think of that. This guy’s the enemy. You don’t go to the FBI for anything. They are the enemy. We knew who the enemy was, and we knew they were attacking. [01:04:00] Something like the American Indian Movement. I never saw anything of going and vetting this guy. No. They knew who the enemy was. They knew it was the FBI, CIA, whatever. It was the Yankee. They knew that. And so, they were going to defend against the Yankee, and they would pull ranks. Sometimes this happened, sometimes -- one of the most glaring references that I found in my work was Juan Angel Silén? Juan Angel Silén in 1967, I think he was head of FUPI, two or three organizations. He was also in MPI. He was also the young guy that they put in charge of the first plebiscite, which is interesting because the FBI intervened in that plebiscite actively. And Silén, what they did was Silén didn’t have a car. Juan Mari had a car, but it was like the community car. Juan 29 �Mari would lend it out to anybody because Juan Mari [01:05:00] was the kind of leader that he would command, but he would go. And he was the first one to go. And he would go to every barrio, and he would go to every micro meeting, and he would be there. Very little private life as I could see during those days. He would, you know, not like some leaders that command and sit back, and “You guys will do it, I’ll sit back here.” No, no, no. Juan Mari commanded and went. Mando e fue. And then, what happened in ’67 with Silén was, that the FBI and it’s in the papers, went to Detroit, Michigan and got the key to the Ford, whatever it was, something Ford that Juan Mari had, used the key to enter the car and put some very [01:06:00] compromising papers in there. It’s a snitch jacket, is what it’s called. JJ: Snitch? MMR: Snitch jacket, where you take somebody who is really with the organization and try to prove that he is (break in audio) and the big snitch jacket that I found in the papers was Juan Angel Silén. And what the FBI did was they put a series of papers in Juan Mari’s car so that Juan Mari would find it and think that Silén was a snitch jacket. But Juan Mari was a very tolerant and astute leader. He read the papers, he called in Silén, and said, “Silén, this was planted by the FBI. They’re after you. They want us to separate.” Okay? And the papers were based on a series of legitimate differences that Juan Angel Silén and Juan Mari had. Because at that point in time, the youth were saying that the MPI was [01:07:00] too bourgeois. And they were with Mao, they were Maoist. So, what they did was they made a pact, and they said, “We will not separate. We will not 30 �look at our differences until after the plebiscite,” which was in July 1967. “We will continue with our campaign to boycott the plebiscite,” which is a very successful campaign. PIP joined in that campaign. And that is also interesting because the FBI had a stool pigeon in PIP. He was Concepción de Gracia’s chauffeur. So, they knew everything that Concepción de Gracia was doing. And Concepción de Gracia and Juan Mari Brás had not spoken to each other for years. But in 1966, when the plebiscite came along, Juan Mari went to Concepción’s house, [01:08:00] and they made common cause. And there’s a very famous FBI paper saying, “We have to split this up,” whatever. And they did. They tried to do it. They also got this university professor, Hector Alvarez Silva, to run the plebiscite. And Hector Alvarez Silva did. The rumor is, and I’ve never been able to verify this, that they held something over Hector Alvarez Silva’s head, concerning one of his sons. I’ve heard it from five or six people, but it’s never been truly confirmed. And that that’s why he ran a campaign, but it wasn’t really a campaign. It was just something there so that independence would appear in that plebiscite. But the history of repression in Puerto Rico is great. Is great. And I think this [01:09:00] CONINTELFILE or COINETLPRO film should have a second part which goes to Puerto Rico. And I don’t know, I feel like I’m like a lot of Puerto Ricans that were raised on the island comfortably. When we go to the United States and confront what’s happening there and the limitations they put, because I always felt like it was something that they were trying to limit my possibilities to do what I wanted, this box that they put in -- you know, you are a minority. I remember when I was in UT, one of the professors, a really nice 31 �liberal professor -- I mean, he didn’t do this on purpose -- he introduced me to another professor from another department, and he said, “Maria is our Puerto Rican professor.” So, the next time I had to introduce him, I said, “Bill is our white professor.” [01:10:00] And he looked at me like, “What did I do?” And it was not conscious on his part. He didn’t want to offend me. And, you know, I kept on saying, “Listen, man, I don’t have Puerto Rican tattooed on my forehead. Because I am Puerto Rican, I do a whole bunch of things because that’s my culture and that’s the way I do it. But I don’t represent all of Puerto Rico. I’m just me.” But they kept on trying to put you in this box of minority. I don’t know if that happened to you, Cha-Cha, you were raised there. But to me, it was chocante. JJ: I don’t know, when we were (inaudible). MMR: It was chocante. And I don’t think I would have been radicalized, maybe I would have been radicalized if I’d gone to the UPI. But going to the US radicalized me, showed me that we were different. We were not part of that empire. They were not us, you know? [01:11:00] And it’s not a bad thing that I’m saying. I’m not anti-Yankee. I can’t be. I go to sleep with a Yankee next to me all for the past 35 years. But I’m different. I like the difference. You know? it’s not that I don’t like you, it’s just that I like what I am. I like the difference. I like being from an island. I like the fact that when I go up north and it’s dead winter, I get desperate because I don’t see any light, you know? I like it. I like to be what I am. But the Young Lords, for me, was a learning experience. It was a big learning experience. First of all, we had a very good leader. Tony Baez. Oh, Antonio Baez, PhD. [01:12:00] 32 �JJ: The University of Milwaukee, right? MMR: Milwaukee, yes. JJ: (inaudible) MMR: And we went to, as far as I can remember, in my memory, this is what, 40 years, 50 years ago? JJ: Yeah, seems right. MMR: Casi, casi. We went to two big demonstrations. We went to one in New York, which we went to -- like I said, we went to Chicago in this Volkswagen. You weren’t there. And we went to New York for a UN thing. We also went to New York for -- and I don’t know if you were there or not, because we went in several cars. JJ: No, I heard about the big demonstration in New York. MMR: Okay. But we went to a Puerto Rican Day parade. JJ: In Chicago. MMR: No. Well, I think we went to one in Chicago, but we also went to one in New York. Were you there? JJ: No, no, no. I missed a few things. [01:13:00] (laughter) MMR: I remember those two demonstrations. I remember going to Chicago for, I think it was a Puerto Rican Day parade where we marched military style, Young Lords, putting on that -- our hat was black. At least that’s what I had. Our hat was black. JJ: It might have been New York, (inaudible) but we did march in Chicago, also. MMR: Yeah. And I remember going to the funeral. Okay. 33 �JJ: We had a very big (inaudible) in Chicago (inaudible), during the Days of Rage of SDS. MMR: Okay. Yeah, yeah. During that trial. JJ: The trial of Bobby Seale? MMR: Bobby Seale’s trial, right. JJ: Oh, no. We weren’t in Chicago. We were (inaudible). MMR: Okay. We went to that trial, but it was so packed. We never got in. JJ: Right, we were outside. MMR: Okay. We were outside. So, packed, we never got in. We went there. I think I saw you twice. [01:14:00] JJ: So, I was there. I was there.(overlapping dialogue; inaudible) MMR: I think one of the times was you showed us the breakfast program at the church in the Armitage. JJ: Dayton and Armitage, yeah. MMR: Yeah. Then I later found out that the reverend and his family were killed. JJ: The Reverend Bruce Johnson was murdered, and it’s still a cold case, we still don’t know what happened, stabbed about 17 times, and his wife nine times. MMR: Oh, I remember him. And I remember the breakfast program, and I remember that they told us that the Black Panthers had help you set it up. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) MMR: I remember some kind of meeting with Mark Hampton. JJ: Fred Hampton. 34 �MMR: Fred Hampton. Did we go to some meeting with Fred Hampton where Fred Hampton spoke? JJ: We went to several meetings (inaudible). MMR: Okay. I remember some kind of meeting with Fred Hampton. [01:15:00] Because I remember seeing him in person. In the Young Lords in Milwaukee, I was just one of many. I would come in from Marquette for the meetings. When Tony Baez said to do something, I would do it. The big thing that we did in Milwaukee that still stands today is we picketed. I don’t remember if he picketed every day, or if it was just one day a week. But I would come in one day a week from Marquette. I would take the bus. And I remember being on a picket with Tony Baez. Sometimes it was Tony Baez and I, and two more. Sometimes it was a lot of people. But he was a persistent cuss, very persistent. And he got what it was called the Spanish Outreach Center, which is a program for Puerto Ricans to go at UWM in Milwaukee, which still goes today. And Tony Baez was the first director for many, many years. [01:16:00] And the program worked because I met many Puerto Ricans that went through this program where they would get into the university, they would give them tutoring, they would give them help, they would give them help with correction of English, all sorts of help so that the student could progress and finish. And I know a whole bunch of people that did. I know that Baez is not there anymore. JJ: (inaudible) MMR: In the year 2000, I went back, and I was very disappointed. Tony Baez wasn’t there anymore. The people that were at the Spanish or at whatever it’s called 35 �now, were what I call professional Puerto Ricans. Not Puerto Ricans that are professional, but that their profession is to be Puerto Rican. [01:17:00] (laughter) JJ: To raise funding? To get money or what? MMR: No, you see them in academia sometimes. You see them in administrations of universities sometimes. JJ: (inaudible) MMR: No, but haven’t you seen them? Haven’t you kind of come across people that, you know, their thing in life is to be Puerto Rican, to be a professional Puerto Rican and to grab that job because of that? JJ: It’s like we call them poverty pimps. But now, it’s professional Puerto Rican. MMR: For me, it was a professional Puerto Rican. I walked in, asked for their program, stuff like that. They completely ignored me. They wouldn’t attend me. I was just one of many. I have three kids that went through UWM, and they tell me that sometimes the program worked for them, sometimes it didn’t. It was much more of a social thing. That wasn’t why we picketed for a whole year, [01:18:00] sun, rain and snow. We picketed for a social justice program where our folks could get through UWM and become professionals. Not for somebody to have fiesta here and fiesta there. And I was just very disappointed. I went a second time with one of my friends that’s a professor there. And when he introduced me as doctor, it worked. (laughs) But since I never use it -- I would say it was very disappointing. It was like, you know, why did I picket all those hours? Why did I freeze my toes off for this if this is what it comes out to be 20 years later? But then I saw Tony Baez, and he’s the head, or he’s the principal of a school for kids 36 �[01:19:00] that don’t make it in any other high school in Milwaukee. And he’s doing a great job. And he brings people in to talk on architecture and a whole bunch of stuff. And it kind of redeemed it for me. So, that’s it. JJ: Any final, final thoughts, anything I’ve forgotten? MMR: Final thoughts? Well, I think my ambition is to be like Juan Mari. My ambition is to stay in the fight for independence and social justice until I close my eyes. You know, my ambition -- I think that this young generation has a lot to teach us. They have a lot of things that they know that the old folks don’t know. And I don’t see them as being, you know, my grandchildren or my children and pat, pat. No, I see them as companeros and companeras. And I’m so happy [01:20:00] to say companeras, because there are women coming in. And I see that I can learn from them, and they can learn from me, and we’re on an even keel here. JJ: So, you’re not talking about retiring, and handing over the torch? MMR: No, no. I like my life. I like my life. I’m 65. JJ: Them joining with you or you joining with them? MMR: Yeah, sometimes on a picket, I’m the oldest one. But I remember when we went to -- when Obama came, we took over el Morro. JJ: I feel like they didn’t make plans (inaudible). MMR: What? JJ: I feel like they didn’t make plans (inaudible). MMR: Yeah. I mean, Obama came, we took over el Morro. We had a group of people inside. We were supposed to make a fuss outside, a big fuss outside, so that the people would think that the action was outside. We were supposed to make a 37 �big fuss. My part in this, [01:21:00] as I was explained by my FUPI colleagues and [Menjesquala?] colleagues, was to walk through San Juan with two banners and a bullhorn so that people wouldn’t see it. So, I, old lady walked from one end of San Juan to the other with the pancarta and bullhorn and the conciernas, the chants that we were going to say. And I was supposed to give the pancarta to the young folks, I was supposed to give the bullhorn to one of the girls, and they were supposed to proceed on from there. And I was supposed to go to the side and watch on. That was my role. When I get there, I can visually see -- if I had been somebody that was watching, [01:22:00] I could see, I could point out all the people that were going to go to the demonstration. I thought, don’t send folks, you know, young people that don’t know how to fly kites. So, I sit there with my sandwich and my book and I’m reading. I had a fabulous time with the breeze of el Morro, and everything. When it comes time, I go, I hand the bullhorn over. We pull out the pancarta. I go to this one girl, I said, “Okay, this is your job. I’m leaving.” “No, no, I can’t do it.” You know, I go, [efopista?]? They can’t chant? Que lo que pasa que? And I will go to the next girl. “Hey, here, this is what you’ve got to do.” “No, no, I can’t do it. I’m scared.” And I go to the next girl. “Oh, no.” So, it ends up old lady screaming her guts out in front of el Morro with all these young people around me. That was not supposed to be. I was not supposed to do that. And then finally, after half an hour of screaming, one of the girls [01:23:00] got up enough courage and came over. “I can do it now.” But I feel that maybe that was my role. You know, what can they do to an old lady? Put her in jail? Make her the heroina nacional? [01:23:16] You know, what can 38 �they do to me now? Okay? My future is what? It’s the struggle. I live for the struggle. The struggle gives me youth. I’m not at home cleaning my house -which by the way, is dirty -- doing nothing, or reading a book. I get to go to the pickets in San Juan. I get to go to the communities and help them out with their problems. I get to go and do a whole bunch of things that I’ve wanted to do for years, but I couldn’t do because I was raising a family. I think the revolution starts at home. Yes. When I was raising my family, I did very few things. [01:24:00] But the family’s raised. I think it’s time for the old MPI folks, the old PSP folks that are now getting Social Security, not to sit in their houses and rot, but to come out and help. Our country is falling apart. Fortuño has been the worst thing that we could get. I mean, our young are leaving. I’ve got three kids in Milwaukee. I want them back. They want to come back. They don’t like it there. They were raised here. And I think it’s time for us to take up the fight again. What are you going to do? How are they going to affect you? Are they going to take away your Social Security? What? Yeah. JJ: So, I was going to ask you the same question, so that’s what you feel that we should be focusing right now, [01:25:00] people should be focusing, like the people on Social Security or other people. As a movement, what do you think we should focus on? MMR: I think that we cannot leave our young people alone. I mean, the fight that the young people here gave at the University of Puerto Rico for a whole year in Río Piedras and in Mayagüez. JJ: What was that fight? 39 �MMR: That was a fight against an up in tuition, against whatchamacallit, making the university smaller and more technical, against freedom of saying things, but mostly against tuition. A tuition hike plus 800 dollars. Those guys in Río Piedras, the marvelous things they would do. I mean, the imagination that those students used. And then the repression by the police. JJ: What did they do? I mean, I heard that they took over -- MMR: Oh, they had street theater. They would go and go visit people’s houses. [01:26:00] They would do a whole bunch of things that were out of the ordinary. And I think that it was our place to back up the students. In Mayagüez, we did. I know a whole bunch of my friends, some of them were statehooders, but they were frustrated. Some of them were [populares?]. And we would go to the nine gates at the university, and at least once or twice a week, give them food. We would go every day to give them coffee and donuts. We would be with them in their marches. We would be there. I remember one march in Mayagüez, to me, it was marvelous. And it was a learning experience. One march in Mayagüez, we were on the military road in front of the college. The police come with horses, and they throw the horses at us. And so, we take the [01:27:00] [Ming bang?] and put it right in front of the horses’ eyes, and we’re like this. And we got the horses to retreat because of this one lousy banner. And it was. And then to my surprise, first of all, I wasn’t used to walking the military road in Mayagüez. That’s the highway. I mean, you go in the car, you don’t walk down the middle of the street. Very few marches you walk down. So, I wasn’t used to that. It was a new experience for me. I loved it. And then to actually make them retreat, and 40 �then they came in motorcycles. And this one motorcycle guy came, and we were at the end of the march, and we were protecting the students with our banner. Me, the old folks, and me. And we were preventing them from coming in and cutting the march up. And this one guy comes and steps on my foot with his motorcycle. And so, I go back, and I said, [01:28:00] “You’ve got to go, and you’ve got to (break in audio) apologize to your grandmother, kid.” “What?” I says, “Because you stepped on an old lady.” And he said, “You’ve got to be home.” I said, “No, no, my place is to be here and to protect these guys against you.” Then I found out that his name is Inocencio Reyes and he’s from Mayagüez. So, every time I see a motorcycle cop in Mayagüez, they all know each other, I go, “Saludo hachencho. Saludo hachencho.” “Yes, abuelita.” But to me, it fascinates me. It fascinates me that you can get away with doing things now that you couldn’t get away with doing [01:29:00] when you were young. Because they don’t expect it. As this guy said, he expected me to be home crocheting and I’m not home crocheting. And I think that we cannot leave our youth alone. We cannot leave our unions alone to fight against the laws like [law seven?], where we get 30,000 people put out of the job. And then I’ve never seen corruption as up close and personal, and as crass and out in the open as we’re seeing in Puerto Rico today. Never, never. And I get frustrated -JJ: How are we seeing it? MMR: How are we seeing it? Elections. You know it’s bad when the statehooders have to rig a [01:30:00] party primary. I mean, you know, it’s bad. You know it’s bad when, in Guaynabo, when they take a census in Guaynabo, and they have the 41 �heads of departments going to the different people that work in Guaynabo and that don’t live in Guaynabo and have them moving to these addresses that they found that had no people living in them. You know it’s bad. They’re doing it against their own folks. If they do it against their own folks, what have they done against us? You know it’s bad when you hear that the first lady of Puerto Rico -and I’m a feminist -- has a law practice of signing mortgages, closing mortgage closings, which she makes millions of dollars with, and which she has taken the money away from other lawyers, and which she thinks is correct to do. She wasn’t doing it before she was the first lady. Is that ethical? You know [01:31:00] it’s corrupt when you have the senator from Mayagüez who doesn’t seem to have a brain in her body. Why did she get to be senator? Because of her physical appearance? Yes, she is very pretty. But that’s not the qualifications that I have for a senator. Pretty is incidental. Brains is just, you have to have it. And I don’t like brains that all that you do is to follow orders. I mean, you know there’s corruption when you have a whatchamacallit, when you have an election for the community representative from the electric company and they come in with [01:32:00] a box full of votes that’s so neatly packed and has rubber bands against it and goes completely against the trend of two companeros that we made a campaign for. I mean, what are they doing? What are they doing when they allow police to torture? Because that’s what they did to the university students when they locked arms in front of the gates. They would come in and press the [caroti?], I don’t know how you say that in English, which causes pain. 42 �JJ: Carotid. MMR: That is torture. When you allow torture, you know, that’s corruption. You know that’s antidemocratic. I mean, if you saw, the other day, they took away the folks from Plaza del Sol in Madrid. Madrid. And they didn’t use that tactic. They’ve never used it. In none of the [desausio?], the [de sa lohos?] [01:33:00] of the different occupy, have they used that tactic. They used it here. Who taught them? Why were they taught? Why? Why in June of 2010, did they go and they nightstick, [macanasos?] to the university students that all they wanted to do was give a letter to the legislature of Puerto Rico? They target women. I thought it was poetic justice when the goons from the riot squad were at their hotel, and the floorboards that were rotten gave way and they all fell down to the first floor. But never, never in the history of Puerto Rico have we seen a government that [01:34:00] is as corrupt as Fortuño. And he doesn’t care. I mean, born and bred in Puerto Rico; he wants to be American. He’s a Guaynabito. JJ: Guaynabito? MMR: From Guaynabo. These folks that have no love for Puerto Rico. Guaynabo is the richest municipality on the island. And so, you call them Guaynabitos. You know, he doesn’t know what it is to be a Puerto Rican. He doesn’t want to be a Puerto Rican. He’s ashamed of being a Puerto Rican. He’s a Republican. He has so many contradictions on him, it isn’t funny. Every weekend he goes to the US. For my beans, he should go up there. [01:35:00] And if he wants to be by the president, fine. Go do to the empire what you did in Puerto Rico. JJ: We’ll support you in that. 43 �MMR: We’ll support you in that. (laughs) JJ: Okay, anything else? MMR: No, I’m talking too much. JJ: Thank you very much. (break in audio) MMR: It was a Young Lords name? JJ: A Young Lord is what they call it. MMR: Okay, I remember that Tony was like a -JJ: He called it (inaudible) MMR: Okay, that’s why I can’t remember what it was. JJ: Yeah, which is the name (inaudible) and then the other one that said, I don’t like that, I want [Ariana Hor?], and I (inaudible) because I had to do it for record, but I just wanted everything the same thing. (inaudible) MMR: Well, I remember he would write most of the articles. JJ: Tony Baez would put the paper together. MMR: Would put the paper together, and sometimes he didn’t have enough time. He was amazing. He was amazing. He was doing a lot of things and sometimes he didn’t have the time, and he’d hand me the paper. Or [01:36:00] he’d call me up or something and I would go and correct the paper. And when I didn’t know how to correct, I would go to a friend of mine that was at the U of Chicago, and who was taking Spanish, and she would. So, it was a very well written paper. JJ: Oh yeah. It was a pretty good paper, yeah. MMR: Yeah, I remember that. 44 �JJ: And then you said you went to the church, (inaudible) MMR: I went to the church. I remember and I don’t know if my memory is right or not, of you explaining the breakfast program. That was one of the times. But it was a group. This is the first time I meet you one on one because I was always in the background. And in Milwaukee I would always come in when called, or when a march or something like that. And that was my thing. I remember Milwaukee worked [01:37:00] a lot with the Brown Berets. JJ: (inaudible) remember MMR: I remember [La Lovaldez?] and I remember this guy whose name was [Jesse Tages?] he was “Jeep”. And I was a VISTA volunteer for a summer, and I kept getting beat up by Polish women and they put Jeep as my bodyguard. I remember that. I remember working at a place called United Spot, which our friend Juan remembered the United Spot. I remember we were supposed to give coffee and stuff to the youth and give them books and stuff, but they didn’t want it. (laughs) END OF VIDEO FILE 45 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/03470fd3f9ec3539f5ee5cadf65098cd.mp4 f16df1c53da4fe14946d9ec92ed537b4 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Marie Merrill Ramirez vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Marie Merrill Ramirez a trabajado como activista para la comunidad y la sección de Young Lords en Milwaukee por mucho tiempo. Ayudo con los problemas de la vecindario en el norte y el sur de la cuidad, enfocándose en estabilizando educación bilingüe en las escuelas. Ahora vive en Mayagüez, Puerto Rico donde sigue advocando para la autodeterminación de Puertorriqueños. Durante la huelga de estudiantes en 2010-2011, que fue la huelga mas larga y grande en la historia de Puerto Rico, Marie Ramirez tomo parte y trabajo con otros en coaliciones de uniones de trabajo, profesores, estudiantes, y activistas dentro de Puerto Rico. El gobierno tuvo que dejar la tarifa que iba doblar el costo de atender la universidad. Pero la victoria más significante fue que le movimiento de estudiantes forzó que el gobierno se sentara en la mesa de negaciones. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomía y movimientos independentistas Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Ramirez_Marie Title A name given to the resource Marie Merrill Ramirez interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ramirez, Marie Description An account of the resource Marie Merrill Ramirez is a long-time community activist from the Milwaukee chapter of the Young Lords. She was actively involved with many neighborhood issues both on the north and south sides of the city, focusing especially on supporting of bi-lingual education efforts. She now lives in Mayagüez, Puerto Rico where she continues to advocate for Puerto Rican self-determination. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Rico--Autonomy and independence movements Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-16 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/eb16c66afd6f7a61772dddb9cd137acd.pdf c277747b37f1ecc39e8294e9c01c7f41 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Gamaliel Ramirez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/11/2012 Biography and Description English Gamaliel Ramirez was born in 1949 in South Bronx, New York to recently arrived immigrant parents. Their family moved to Chicago in 1955. He attended the Peabody School on Augusta just east of Ashland and west of I-94, which then divided the Puerto Rican community in half, with Old Town, Lakeview and Lincoln Park on the east, and Wicker Park and Humboldt Park on the west. Although Mr. Ramirez was never a member, he hung around with the Latin Kings and with the Young Lords. Struggling with undiagnosed dyslexia, Mr. Ramirez was forced out of school when he was 16 years old. It was then that he decided to teach himself how to paint, visiting the Art Institute of Chicago to study the paintings of European, and later the American and Latin American, masters. Mr. Ramirez became one of the pioneers of the Chicago-based Latino Art Movement and has exhibited his paintings nationally and internationally. Mr. Ramirez’s brother, Eddie Ramirez, was Assistant Coordinator in charge of precincts during the Jiménez for Alderman Campaign. Gamaliel Ramirez volunteered to work with the Latin Eagles and Young Lords to clean up the area and stop the flow of drugs in the then well- established open drug market of Wilton and Grace Streets. The Young Lords brokered a deal with the Latin Eagles to clean up the graffiti �in the neighborhood in return for Mr. Ramirez assisting them to paint their Latin Eagle -- an Eagle and Puerto Rican Flag symbol -- on the wall in their Wilton and Grace neighborhood. Mr. Ramirez also led the painting of murals at the Young Lords office, both outside and inside. Spanish Gamaliel Ramirez nació en 1949 en South Bronx, Nueva York a padres que acababan de inmigrarse. Su familia so mudo a Chicago en 1955. Atendió la escuela de Peabody, en Augusta que era este de Ashland y oeste del I-94. En este tiempo el I-94 separaba la comunidad en dos partes, el Old Town, Lakeview y Lincoln Park en el este, y Wicker Park y Humboldt Park en el oeste. Señor Ramirez nunca fue un miembro de los Latin Kings o de los Young Lords si era amigos con unos de los miembros. Luchando con dislexia, Señor Ramirez fue forzado ah abandonar la escuela cuando tiene 16 años. Era en este momento que decidió aprender a pintar, visito el Art Institute of Chicago para aprender sobre las pinturas Europeos y luego fue con maestros para aprender sobre las pinturas Americana y Americana Latina. Señor Ramirez fue uno de los primeros de ser parte del Movimiento de Arte Latino en Chicago, y expone su arte nacional igual que internacionalmente. El hermano Señor Ramirez, Eddie Ramirez, era el coordinador asistente que estaba en cargo distritos durante la Campaña de Alderman para Jiménez. Gamaliel Ramirez ofreció trabajar con los Latin Eagles y Young Lords para limpiar la aria de drogas que en este tiempo había cambio de drogas en simple vista en las calles de Wilton y Grace Street. Los Young Lords hicieron un acuerdo con los Latin Eagles para limpiar el graffiti en el vecindario. Señor Ramirez también fue un líder en pintar los murales en la oficina de los Young Lords, por dentro y por fuera. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Where were we? GAMALIEL RAMIREZ: Well, everything, with doing the murals and doing the whole community, involved in things that I -JJ: Involved, what’s that like, involved? GR: Yeah, things I’m involved in. JJ: How did you involve? (inaudible) GR: Well, a lot of the time, I was doing community work and work in my community. I was also studying art. I was always going to the Art Institute and studying what’s going on, reading books. JJ: (inaudible) GR: I was self-taught. Just, I look at it this way. I used to go and study the masters, so I claimed that the masters taught me how to paint, although they were dead and I didn’t have a conversation with them. But by looking at their work is what I studied, and then by studying them, I evolved into my own thing (overlapping dialogue). JJ: You mentioned Vincent van Gogh. GR: Vincent van Gogh, Picasso. Also, later on, I got very much into the Latin American scene too. I think I visited about 10 murals in Mexico, [00:01:00] Orozco, Siqueiros, Rivera. I actually go to Mexico just to see the murals. I traveled to all different parts of Mexico, looking at the murals, checking them out, learning, because you can see the photographs, and they’re incredible, but when 1 �you see the real painting, it’s just mind-blowing. It’s nothing like the photographs. The photographs are small. You don’t see so many details. You don’t see brushstrokes. You don’t see the whole thing, you know? But when you go to see the Mexican murals in Mexico live, then you learn a lot about the -JJ: The detail? GR: You learn a lot about what the artist was dealing with, yeah, his style and stuff like that. And of course, I also went to San Francisco to check out the murals, LA, check out the murals. I tried to check some out in New York. Everywhere I’d go, I’d try to learn the history of the local movement. In San Francisco, they got a strong movement, and I spent time here off and on with a friend of mine, (inaudible). You probably know him from the old days, and [00:02:00] he’s out there painting murals, and I stayed with him. He knows everybody over there. He’s been there that long. So, I’m always studying. (inaudible) a little better before. Economically, we were doing better. The travel was a little cheaper. With 100 bucks, I could drive my car all the way to LA. You can’t do that no more. (laughs) And the flights are more expensive now. I don't know, what did it cost you to come over here? JJ: We got here with the school, so it was 200 dollars. GR: Round trip? JJ: Yeah. GR: For each one? JJ: Yeah. 2 �GR: That’s good. No, I gotta do some research, but I was thinking of going there next month or not. I’m put in a situation where I need to get registered with a hospital, and I need to find an apartment. I need to do other stuff, so I really can’t travel yet, so I’m thinking maybe just travel later. It’s nothing [00:03:00] that important. I’m painting my storage place in Chicago, so that’s the only thing that I got over there that’s important, and I miss my friends, but I got new ones here. I gotta make new ones eventually. JJ: Didn’t you have a community agency that you were teaching for a while? GR: Urban Gateways. Well, yeah, ironically, I was kicked out of school, out of grammar school, eighth grade, never made it to high school. But as soon as I started teaching in the community and working with the gangs, working with the churches, working with the schools, I got popular in that sense, and then they hired me, Urban Gateways, through some influences from the Latino Board of Directors that screamed that, “There’s no Latinos in your program.” And they said, “Well, find us some qualified ones, and we’ll hire them.” So, my name was submitted, and not only that, David was already there. JJ: David Hernández. GR: Right. And then from there, José del Rios came and the Maria de (inaudible). Then we saw more Latinos started getting in. I was like the second Puerto Rican there. [00:04:00] For 25 years, I’ve always worked having an agency (inaudible). I always worked on my own, freelancing, but I also worked in the schools. After they threw me out, I went back to the schools and worked with them for 25 years, teaching grammar school from kindergarten to eighth grade and high schools. 3 �And when I left, when I got my cancer and emphysema and all that, and I had to give it up, I was working every day at different schools, working for After School Matters with Maggie Daley’s program, and then I was working for Urban Gateways for 25 years. JJ: So, you said you got cancer and emphysema. GR: I got cancer and emphysema all at the same time it hit me sort of. JJ: Is it in remission or--? GR: Well, the cancer’s in remission, but that’s why [00:05:00] I’m saying I gotta hook up with the hospital system here to make sure that it’s at bay, that it’s not messing with me now. The last time I had cancer, the main thing that it did to me was that it didn’t let me produce blood, so I was walking around with three pints of blood and didn’t know it for four months, and I was falling everywhere. I was bumping my head on every wall at Adrian’s? house. (laughs) I was collapsing everywhere, and we didn’t know what that was all about, until one time I collapsed in the hospital, and they took me to the ER, and they checked me out, and they says, “You know, you only got three pints of blood. We’re gonna have to give you blood.” And after all that, after four months with struggling with it, I mean, I was crawling through my chemo. I crawled through radiation. I crawled through the whole process because nobody knew that I was missing blood, and that was the reason why I couldn’t get up, I couldn’t stand up. I’d stand up and fall down. My students had to pick me up. So, after that, they told me I had [00:06:00] emphysema, so they retired me. They gave me social security. Ironically, the social security check is what I get normally, and then I starve half 4 �the time because I didn’t work in the summer, and I didn’t work on the holidays, but with social security, I’m doing better because I get a check regardless if it’s summer, holiday, whatever. I still get that check every month, and it’s about the same amount that I was making with them, but there was parts that I didn’t have no income, like all summer. It was rough. I just did some freelance work here and there. And then Christmas, there was no jobs. There was many times at Christmas, I didn’t have no money to buy gifts for my daughter. I was really feeling terrible about that, but that’s how it was. Now I get the steady check all the time, and if I’m painting a painting, don’t tell nobody. (laughter) You can’t prove that. JJ: Yeah, you have your ways, man. GR: (laughs) No, so I make [00:07:00] a little bit of extra income that way, no big thing though. It’s not to the point where they’re going to -- JJ: Chump change. GR: Yeah, it’s chump change, exactly. It just gets me through the end of the month, which I enjoy. I enjoy that because everything that I painted, Puerto Rico, that I -- JJ: There’s only so much money in that city. GR: Right. JJ: (inaudible) GR: Right. Poverty is 17,000, so if you go over 17,000 -- JJ: You’re on Social Security, you’re in the poverty range. GR: Yes, in poverty. I was in poverty when I was working. (laughs) I was working still. I was in poverty when I was working. 5 �JJ: You’ve done a lot of volunteer work for a lot of organizations, at the Daley Center. GR: Yeah, and I’ve done murals for half price. JJ: Right. All your life. GR: All my life, I’ve been donating. They call it “donation”. JJ: And that was (inaudible) or in person? GR: Yeah. You know what I do now, if you go to my murals in Chicago, [00:08:00] you’ll see that it is also funded -- JJ: We had a lot of politicians helping the Young Lords, and I had appreciated that. GR: Right. Yeah, a lot of people are donating. The last piece that I donated, that painting of [congelo?] that I did to the Haitian cause. When they call Gallery, the Black Gallery of Chicago, she did a fundraiser for the people of Haiti, so I donated a painting, and that brought in 700 dollars. It was worth twice as much, but I’m happy that I was able to do something. And I just got out of the hospital. JJ: So, you still do some shows. GR: Well, down in Chicago, I have a show. I did some drawings, and I sent them to them, and they’re showing my work. JJ: And they are showing it? GR: Yeah. And then I just did that thing on Channel 11. They showed a lot of my work here. They interviewed me, and they talk about my work. JJ: What was the name of that thing on Channel 11? What was that? GR: Oh, I can’t remember. JJ: Was it like a video? [00:09:00] 6 �GR: Yeah, it’s a video of low-income housing artists, and I was one of them that wanted to move into the space, so I got on. They loved my -- they needed artwork because -- JJ: The low-income artists in Chicago, you’re saying? GR: Yeah. JJ: On Bloomingdale Street? GR: It was [NNWAC?] that did it, the Near NorthWest Arts Council, on Bloomingdale, and the building project was called ACME, and like I say about it, it was done upside-down, so to speak, and because of that, I was ousted out of the program. They pushed me out, so to speak. I mean, I put down payment, but I had to do several things to qualify to get the low-income money. Because I couldn’t do that immediately, they put somebody else into my place. And I just said, “Forget about it,” and so I (inaudible), and I’m like, “Oh, there’s so much (inaudible) going on,” and half the people there are not real artists, so I didn’t feel very comfortable. They had some real good artists in there, [00:10:00] like [Daniel’s?] in there. I have to give that. They do have some artists in there that are very good and very prolific, but there are some artists there that are not really art -they’re art teachers who they’ve been teaching forever. They don’t have to be selling their work. They don’t have to be showing. They’re involved (inaudible). Anyway, I left that, and during that time, I was living in south Chicago. I had moved to south Chicago for five years, so I pretty much knew the city. JJ: So, when you were in south Chicago, you were donating work out there. 7 �GR: Yes, I did projects over there with the community organizations. Some of them are published, very well known. They’re published on the internet, and they’re published in books, Chicago Public Arts Group. They liked the work, and they used it for their books. They never funded me. I did it on my own with the agencies, but it’s several of them. They’re very well done and still intact, very beautiful. [00:11:00] Everybody loves that work, and I’m real proud of it. But I did murals in Benito Juarez High School also, 18th Street. I’ve done in the Black communities, like Kanoon School, I did a really nice mural in the gym, “It Takes a Whole Village,” a nice painting of, you know, Africans, Afro-American community, schools all over the place, Catholic schools, all these, St. Mary’s, St. Sebastian in the lunch room. So, I did it with the kids. At St. Pius, in their lunch room, there’s one at St. Pius. So, all over the city, I was doing the murals with the Urban Gateways. I would go in for 10 weeks. Then we’d started planning and organizing, and I taught people the basic stuff, basic lessons, and from there, we’d come up with a concept, and we’d paint them. [00:12:00] And I would get one class to paint for an hour. The other class would paint for an hour. The other class would paint for an hour. Then I’m outta there, right? Then, I’d put in a few touches here and there, boom, got a mural, and they’d hang ’em. They’d put up really nice panels. They gave me a few dollars for building the panels, and I would take them to the school, paint them real nice, and they’d hang them on their walls, so they’re still there. Stockton Elementary in Uptown, I spent six months working on a project there with the principal there, with -- what was her 8 �name -- Deborah Esparza. She was from Lakeview also. I met her there. And I ran to her, and she told me, “Why don’t you come to my school?” JJ: What’s her name? GR: Deborah Esparza. She’s got a doctor’s degree, so she was at Stockton Elementary in Uptown. JJ: She’s in Puerto Rico now? GR: No, she’s still teaching. I think she’s a district supervisor. She was a young principal with a doctor’s degree, so she was moving up when I first met her, [00:13:00] so she’s a supervisor now in Uptown in that area. But there’s a really nice mural in there in the hallways as you walk to the auditorium. Helen Shiller was there. I got some Greeley Elementary School, across the street from Gill Park. There’s two murals facing the community, out to the community, that I did with them. I did several murals. That was the last job that I had. I actually was doing a few murals. You know, they came out so beautiful, sometimes I felt so sad because people would steal them, teachers. They got ’em in their rec room or something. JJ: They’ll take ’em? GR: They’ll take them. They say, “What happened to the mural?” (laughter) JJ: It was a painting or a mural? GR: Well, right, we’d put ’em on panels. Then we’d put ’em outside. I’d done that in south Chicago and at Greeley Elementary. I used a technique that I had to learn real fast how to use because it was cheaper than painting the wall, and I wouldn’t [00:14:00] have to take the kids up there. We could do it all ground level. 9 �JJ: Because you were doing these murals with the kids. GR: Yeah. We would design the concepts and put them together and then paint them with a group of special kids, after-school programs basically. JJ: After-school programs, that was with people who have gang -- GR: Greeley was an interesting school because gangs -- it was just cream of the crop. That school got the Blue Ribbon Award, the National Blue Ribbon Award, for one of the best schools in the country. That school got that, so that wasn’t a gang program, but over there with the high school, Kelvyn Park High School, now that’s different. That was people who are trying to get the gangbangers into making art and stuff. It was difficult. I had a lot of success with the Latino kids from Latin America. They’re very polite, very well mannered, and they love to do things. They all love work. They love [00:15:00] to work, so they all work. Some of the gang guys, as soon as you try to get them to work, they just give you a hard time and give you dirty looks and then walk away. So, it’s hard. That’s the question. JJ: But you did do some prevention because they’re being able to do something before they went into that. GR: Yeah, might’ve. Yeah, there’s a lot of kids who also became artists. JJ: (inaudible) GR: Yeah. There’s a lot of kids became artists eventually. I had students that became artists, and apparently they didn’t get into gangs and stuff like that. But the gangs are overwhelming the schools over there. You know the problem in Chicago in the ghetto. It’s overwhelming. It’s not exactly an easy thing. And part 10 �of it is not so much us or them. It’s more the system is what creates these problems. You know what I’m saying? JJ: What do you mean? GR: Well, it’s too top heavy. [00:16:00] The administration is very top heavy. They run all the schools. By the time the money trickles down to the schools for extra services and stuff like that, it trickles down, and they don’t get much of it. And now, the way the money is set up, they get the money from property values, so if you’re in the ghetto, what kind of property value are you going to have? But if you go to Winnetka or if you go to Zion and you go to one of their schools and teach, which I’ve gone that far out to teach, and you go into the schools, they got everything. They got beautiful studios. They got beautiful rooms, beautiful lunch rooms, beautiful buildings, and the teachers get paid fairly well, and they get a chance to do with the kids some -- learn things like that. But the difference between that and going to a school in the South Side of Chicago and Lawndale neighborhood, South Lawndale by Hyde Park, where the university is moving everybody out of there, [00:17:00] Chicago University, I was teaching a class of kindergarten kids. Their principal explained to me -- the principal was a friend of mine -- he explained to me, “These kids, their parents are crackheads and stuff like that. We got to try to teach them and stuff.” They’re very difficult to discipline. They don’t have any discipline at all. It was very hard to discipline them. And he would get their attention, but anybody else, like a stranger like me, I had to work twice as hard with them. They would grasp the concept, but they didn’t learn. They didn’t even know how to hold pencils. 11 �JJ: You mentioned Kelvyn Park or something like that. You mentioned that people were being displaced or something. Was it the South Side? GR: Yeah, the South Side, in Lawndale, South Lawndale. JJ: There’s been a lot of displacement in Chicago. GR: Oh, yeah. JJ: You grew up also in Lakeview, and [00:18:00] you (inaudible) Lincoln Park. GR: And even Humboldt Park is changing. JJ: And Humboldt Park is changing. Do you think that the fact that the community is changing all the time, do you think that had an impact or anything on some of these things? GR: Well, it’s -- what do they call it -- economic injustice going on, injustice. It’s economic injustice. Poor people are poor, and they don’t give any resources. JJ: Have you seen Winnetka? Winnetka, that’s the neighborhood that’s been stable all the time. The same people have been living there all the time. They haven’t been displaced. Do you think that contributes to the kids acting a little bit better than the ones in Humboldt Park or some other place who were displaced? I mean, it’s a political question I’m asking. GR: Well, yeah, because you’re talking about Winnetka. JJ: (inaudible) GR: Well, [00:19:00] isn’t it Bill (inaudible) comes from Winnetka, no? Or he comes from that neighborhood up there, right? JJ: (inaudible) GR: Yeah, right? (laughs) So, in other words -- 12 �JJ: Now, he was all right. GR: No, he’s a political person, and all they’re doing -- they blew up the building. JJ: But actually, what I’m saying is political. They got a kid grows up in the neighborhood. You moved all the time. Did that have an effect on you, you moved all the time? GR: Oh, yeah. You didn’t have a steady neighborhood. You didn’t have a steady group of neighbors. You didn’t know what it is, a neighborhood. You didn’t know what a neighborhood was, really. Once I moved into a Puerto Rican neighborhood, that was the first time that I had the chance of not moving around, but I chose to move around still. But then I went to Lakeview. Now, Lakeview, of course, renovated quicker than West Town. If I would’ve stayed in West Town, people in West Town, if you tell them about gentrification, they say, “Well, that’s over there.” [00:20:00] They don’t realize it’s right behind them. As a matter of fact, I told them, I’m here, watch out. (laughs) And they follow the artists. They follow the art trends. Like Wicker Park, they bring in the artists, and some commercial people come down, and then it brings the yuppies, and it brings everybody else, and then before you know it, they’ll come the million dollar homes that they have now in Bucktown, right? They only cost 10,000 dollars awhile back. You could buy a greystone building for 10,000 dollars, three stories, three apartments, you know, nice building. Now that same building is worth a million dollars, so yeah, it doesn’t help. It’s sort of like Helen. Helen is the only person I know that was able to bring in some yuppies but keep ’em at bay, 13 �keeping ’em like, say, where you can only have so many condominiums on the block. After that, you gotta give us something else. JJ: Helen Shiller? GR: Helen. [00:21:00] And because of that, they were always trying to get her out, and spent millions of dollars trying to get her out. She left on her own, but because she was tired. She was tired. But she was always telling me the stories that that’s how they did it over there. And she was doing a lot of the low-income housing stuff and Mayor Daley learned that from her. He actually adopted some of the programs. You know, the corporate Chicago, if they see good ideas, they take ’em eventually, they use them. So, low-income housing’s a reality now, and art is low-income. Mayor Daley, he’s very proud of that ACME building. And he helped make it happen. Mayor Daley has been there, pictures of David and his wife and all that with Mayor Daley. (laughter) But those [concepts?]come around for regular people, and then the city sees that it needs to be done. Everybody criticized Mayor Daley for having the city that doesn’t have low-income housing, and so he started saying, “Oh, let’s do something for the low-income housing now.” So, he is doing [00:22:00] his bit, or he was doing his bit. JJ: But do you think he was kind of pressured into that? GR: Yeah, because he had to put face. JJ: Because he came into office in ’55?, (inaudible). That’s where the neighborhood said, “You need to split.” GR: Yeah, they had the plan where they wanted to get rid of us. JJ: Right now, (inaudible) pressure to get them out. 14 �GR: Yeah, because otherwise he’d be just like his father. JJ: The city’s still displacing people. GR: Yeah, but he said that he’d be like -- well, he has been -- JJ: Oh, you’re talking about the younger Daley. GR: Yeah. JJ: But his father was the same plan. GR: It’s the same thing, yeah. It’s all, he inherited everything. Of course, he inherited everything. I mean, you know. It’s proven that he was the state’s attorney when they killed Fred Hampton, right? And it’s proven that he got blood on his hat, but they don’t say anything about it. So, it’s like, okay, so the city pays out millions of dollars to a family, and that’s it. And newspapers say that the city admits that [00:23:00] they did wrong, and they admit that Mayor Daley knew about it. Everybody knew about it, the Red Squad. I mean, they admit to it. JJ: What was the Red Squad? What do you mean, the Red Squad? GR: Well, it was that the FBI throughout the city developed this squad to go and kill Fred Hampton. It’s the Red Squad. I mean, you knew all about it before I knew about it. I learned about it through history because I wasn’t living there at the time, but you knew about it when it happened. You know what I mean? So, the time and all that, people understand that, and community leaders understand that. The Puerto Rican community understands. The Mexican community understands it. But you still have the whole thing that they have this buffer, and it’s called the middle class. (laughs) It keeps everybody voting and saying, “Oh, he’s doing a good job.” Right? 15 �JJ: That’s what they (inaudible). (laughs) GR: Well, the middle class is corroding [00:24:00] right now, and that’s what the whole application issue is. As the middle class corrodes, then that’s how France had the revolution, because they got rid of the middle class. People got really upset. There was like nothing but poor people, and so they had the revolution. That’s one of the reasons why France started, after the revolution, to have free education, because if you educate the masses, then you could have a middle class. But if you don’t educate them, you’re not going to have a middle class. The middle class is that buffer that keeps politicians in place, in this country anyway. The middle class, they’re falling like cockroaches. They’re falling, but they don’t see it. They don’t realize who they are. You know what I mean? It’s not gone, or I mean, the whole thing when Slim Coleman was working in Uptown for your election, for your campaign, during the campaign, and it was that the white Appalachian [00:25:00] poor people didn’t think that the system was all that bad because they were white, and then the Black have it bad because the Blacks are Black, you know? But they didn’t realize that they were also just as bad off as the Black people, or worse, some of them. And this happens to -- I went to the south, to South Carolina, and you could see how the yuppies go there and buy a hillbilly’s house, renovate the inside but leave the outside look like a hillbilly house, so it has the authentic look, rustic look. So, you can tell the difference there. Their roads have Pampers all over the place, and their kids are running around naked. You could see the other one had sparkling glass, and it’s beautiful with its old roof and all this stuff. But that’s what the yuppies have taken over, 16 �buying all these areas up, so the Appalachians are forced out also in North Carolina, when I went there to visit. JJ: So, there’s a big displacement there. GR: Yeah. There’s displacement going on everywhere, [00:26:00] everywhere. The whole thing that’s going on in Florida with the ban and the foreclosures and all that, that’s incredible. That’s incredible that that could happen at such a massive scale. Well, one of the reasons nothing happens, nothing can be done about it, nothing has been done about it because they killed all the left movement. They killed everybody on the left, not the right. They didn’t kill the right movement. The right movement is healthy, too healthy. (laughs) JJ: So, they killed a lot of leaders? GR: They killed all our leaders. If Martin Luther King was around, would they be able to get away with this? No, there would be some organizing. There would be some high-level organizations, not only (inaudible), but Fred Hampton (inaudible). He would’ve been the mayor of Chicago. If all these people that they killed during the ’60s, ’70s, if those people were still alive, if Robert Kennedy was alive, things would be totally different. [00:27:00] They wouldn’t let these things happen. That’s the only reason Nixon was able to become president, because they killed all the left talent, and there was nobody to run, and Richard Nixon looked like a genius, (laughs) and we all know better than that, right? It was because they killed everybody on the left. A lot of people don’t understand that, all right? I see that very clearly because I say, well, what happened? Where’s all my support? Where’s my backup? It's not there. What happened to 17 �it? They all got killed. Who killed ’em? The right-wing people killed them. It wasn’t us. It was right-wing people. Guess who gave Nixon a hard time for the presidency, kicked his ass, made him look like shit? Kennedy, because who killed -- next thing you know, Kennedy gets killed, and Nixon looking good. Before that, he was looking like an idiot because they didn’t have something to compare him to. I don’t know, [00:28:00] I think that’s what happened. I know that’s what happened. I don’t think; I know that’s what happened. That’s why it was such a loss these days, because they wiped out the left movement. We’re waiting for the next generation of left, and they’re out there in the streets. You don’t see them, but if you keep your eyes open and your ears to the pavement, you’re gonna see that Chicago beat up a bunch of young people during the times that they had whatever, the Democratic Convention, the Republican Convention. It always brings all these young people out, all these young organizers. Occupation’s a good example of what’s going on, Occupation. It’s a good reaction to the Tea Party. It's a good reaction. JJ: Occupation of Wall Street? GR: Yeah. JJ: I would say it’s kind of an evolution from our time. GR: Right. And now it’s internet, different from our time. They have the internet now, which means they can organize [00:29:00] pretty fast. And then every town is organizing across the country. You know, what they do is they keep on hiring more police. I was talking to the people on the Greater West Town Committee, and this is Pulaski and North Avenue. They have a historical society there, and 18 �they have these articles about the problems in the neighborhood, so I started to - you know, Jeff-something is saying, “Yeah, the problem is because of this and this and this.” “Oh, yeah, going around pointing fingers. Blame the rich people.” I said, “No, sorry if you’re rich, man, but the point is that if we don’t have no economics for the people, then we’re going to have these problems.” Poor people didn’t come from nowhere. They were invented. They were produced, and our society’s doing that. And if there’s only a few rich people [00:30:00] and there’s a bunch of poor people, then you know what the problem is. They got rid of what I said. They erased the articles out of the page, and they don’t even want to talk about it, or they want to talk about gentrified Pulaski and North Avenue; bring them back. They want it back to where it was, and they’re going to get it back because that’s what’s going on. Look at Wicker Park. Look at Lincoln Park, same thing. They just don’t realize that, what they’re doing. The yuppies moving into Humboldt Park, I mean, I agree with you that they need a place to live, (inaudible). (laughter) I feel bad for the yuppies because everybody blames everything on them. They didn’t tell the yuppies when they moved into the neighborhood, that apartment that they’d rented just now for 1,000 or 2,000 dollars only cost 100 dollars before they came. They didn’t tell them that. What did they do? The developers, [00:31:00] and they put City Hall and the politicians. The politicians, these are our own politicians that are doing that. They’re selling us out short, and that’s how the yuppies move in. And then what are they doing in West Town? Okay, Humboldt Park (inaudible). Humboldt Park is a good deal. I’m sorry, it’s so -- you know? And these little kids, turning them 19 �into hate people. People, they hate yuppies. I hear that. I hear that from these young people that they hate yuppies, but they don’t realize that the politician that they’re getting into office is the one that okayed that deal made that the banks and the developers made so now for the yuppies to come in and pay 2,000 dollars a month. If they put the same energy into helping the poor people out, then they could do something positive, but they don’t. The politicians and the banks, bankers and developers, are in it together, and it’s legal, and they [00:32:00] make the yuppies look bad. And they blame it all on the yuppies. You know what I’m saying, right? JJ: Yeah. GR: On Division Street, yuppies keep out. What’s that all about? They don’t know who the real enemy is. We are our own enemies. Right now, we’re overrepresentative. We have more Puerto Rican congressmen than any small group of people ever had, and we can’t get shit done, and we’re still struggling. Just look at it. We’re only four million people. What community enjoys so many politicians, of four million? No community has that many politicians of four million people. They don’t have that many politicians. We got Puerto Ricans in the Bronx. We got Puerto Ricans in Manhattan. We got Puerto Ricans from everywhere. We got Puerto Ricans in Philadelphia. We have Puerto Ricans in Ohio, in Chicago, all these congressmen. We got more congressmen than we need, and [00:33:00] yet we can’t get any -- still, we got the worst schools, living in the worst ghettos. They’re making deals with developers, the banks, offices. There’s politics, right? The art of compromising. 20 �JJ: Any final words? GR: Any final words? (laughs) JJ: (inaudible) GR: Well, it’s not over. (laughs) It’s just beginning. I mean, let’s look at it this way. We’re going to be a footnote in history, how (inaudible) evolved. But I think what we’re seeing and what we’re doing right now are very important because, for instance, I talked to this young lady that was feeding the crowds in New York, young Puerto Rican girl. She was telling me about what she’s involved, what she’s doing. She had cancer. She had a brain aneurysm, but she’s out there [00:34:00] doing it, and with her husband. They’re both political, young Puerto Ricans. And I said, “Man, I wish I was out there with you guys. I feel so guilty I cannot be part of this.” And she said, “You was doing this when I was a little kid. I mean, you were telling me I gotta do something. Your work has been political. Your stuff has been political since the very beginning, since I met you, since I’ve known you, and you’ve influenced a lot of people.” And what we’re telling them is, “Look at him. Look at you, what you’re thinking, what you’re saying, because that’s the real answer.” It’s our idea comes solutions. You can’t have a solution if you don’t look at the problem, and we have examined the problem, like under a microscope, all our lives. We’ve been very critical of the society, of the system, of the political people, very political. We’ve been very political. In that sense, we’re just at the [00:35:00] beginning of it, really. We are the beginning. The ’60s was the beginning. Where they’re going to in the future is all related. It’s all related. And things will get better. I mean, I quit voting because I heard, was it 21 �[Kleberg?] say, “Well, people think they’re radical because they go out and vote for a liberal every four years.” That’s not radical. That’s not organizing. You gotta live a life. You gotta organize. You gotta live a life. You gotta do it. And now I choose to be with my artist friends, my artist family, and we all help each other, and we all get ahead somehow and keep on moving forward. And our expressions and what we say about society, it’s very important for the future. This is why this is important, this video, your project that you’re doing. How is that? Sound great? (laughs) END OF VIDEO FILE 22 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d4d757e0fae9dbbf76fb208b218f6900.mp4 060d9db24b90e05a32e6c2576d9da284 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Gamaliel Ramirez vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Gamaliel Ramirez nació en 1949 en South Bronx, Nueva York a padres que acababan de inmigrarse. Su familia so mudo a Chicago en 1955. Atendió la escuela de Peabody, en Augusta que era este de Ashland y oeste del I-94. En este tiempo el I-94 separaba la comunidad en dos partes, el Old Town, Lakeview y Lincoln Park en el este, y Wicker Park y Humboldt Park en el oeste. Señor Ramirez nunca fue un miembro de los Latin Kings o de los Young Lords si era amigos con unos de los miembros. Luchando con dislexia, Señor Ramirez fue forzado ah abandonar la escuela cuando tiene 16 años. Era en este momento que decidió aprender a pintar, visito el Art Institute of Chicago para aprender sobre las pinturas Europeos y luego fue con maestros para aprender sobre las pinturas Americana y Americana Latina. Señor Ramirez fue uno de los primeros de ser parte del Movimiento de Arte Latino en Chicago, y expone su arte nacional igual que internacionalmente. El hermano Señor Ramirez, Eddie Ramirez, era el coordinador asistente que estaba en cargo distritos durante la Campaña de Alderman para Jiménez. Gamaliel Ramirez ofreció trabajar con los Latin Eagles y Young Lords para limpiar la aria de drogas que en este tiempo había cambio de drogas en simple vista en las calles de Wilton y Grace Street. Los Young Lords hicieron un acuerdo con los Latin Eagles para limpiar el graffiti en el vecindario. Señor Ramirez también fue un líder en pintar los murales en la oficina de los Young Lords, por dentro y por fuera. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Latin Kings--Illinois--Chicago Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Artes, puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Ramirez_Gamaliel Title A name given to the resource Gamaliel Ramirez interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Ramirez, Gamaliel Description An account of the resource Gamaliel Ramirez was born in 1949 in South Bronx, New York to recently arrived immigrant parents. Their family moved to Chicago in 1955. Although Mr. Ramirez was never a member, he hung around with the Latin Kings and with the Young Lords. Mr. Ramirez became one of the pioneers of the Chicago-based Latino Art Movement and has exhibited his paintings nationally and internationally. Mr. Ramirez also led the painting of murals at the Young Lords office, both outside and inside. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Latin Kings--Illinois--Chicago Arts, Puerto Rican--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-05-12 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8cf7a4d4ec597b6822fa8ff3390c37d6.pdf 4b3640afb689f4d893f7888867d8301d PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Sandra Quiles Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 11/21/2012 Runtime: 01:48:38 Biography and Description Oral history of Sandra Quiles, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on November 21, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: So, [Sandy?], if you could give me your full name, with your middle initial and everything -SANDRA QUILES: My full name? JJ: -- and your date of birth and where you were born. SQ: Okay. My full name is Sandra Maria Quiles Jimenez. I was born in Aurora, Illinois. JJ: When were you born? SQ: I was born in Aurora, Illinois. JJ: No, what date? SQ: September 17th. I try to forget it. (laughs) JJ: September 17th? SQ: Yeah, September 17th, ’71. JJ: And why are you trying to forget it? SQ: The years go by too fast. (laughs) JJ: Okay. It was ’81? SQ: Seventy-one. JJ: Seventy-one. Sorry. I won’t go into how long (inaudible). SQ: Oh, please. (laughter) JJ: Because you said -- okay. So, did you go to school in Aurora? SQ: Yeah, I did. I went to Brady School in Aurora. [00:01:00] JJ: Brady? 1 �SQ: Yes, I went to Brady. JJ: What part of Aurora? East side, west side? SQ: I don’t remember. It’s so long ago. I really don’t remember. I know it was -- I really liked it. It was really, really good when I was small, growing up. It was calm. I know certain times of the year, certain -- there was a lot of Mexicans coming in. So, right there, a little bit of changes. But otherwise that, it was good. It was nice and calm. But then, while the years kept on going, it wasn’t as the way it should have been from there, I guess. Mom and my dad didn’t really like it anymore, so we ended up coming here. JJ: So, who’s your mom? What’s her name? And your dad? SQ: My mom is Juana Jimenez, and my dad is William Quiles. JJ: William Quiles, okay. And how about your brothers and sisters? What were their names? SQ: My brother -- my oldest brother -- [00:02:00] his name is Joseph Anthony. I would be the second one. And then, comes my sister Margie, and then would be Danny. JJ: And where do they live? SQ: Well, right now, Joey lives in -- I think in Orlando. Margie lives in Aurora. And Danny, I don’t -- I don’t remember. Really, I don’t. JJ: Alright. And then, are they married or no? SQ: Well, no, no, not really. My sister, she’s happily with her partner right now. They have a child. She’s happily with him. My brother, he’s okay. He’s with his partner also. But my oldest brother, no, not that I know of, no. 2 �JJ: But your husband, what’s his name? [00:03:00] SQ: My husband’s name is Victor Ocasio. JJ: Victor Ocasio. What does he do? SQ: My husband is a doctor. JJ: He’s a doctor? Okay? So, what do you do for a living? SQ: I am a artesana. JJ: Artesana? SQ: Artesana, yes. JJ: And what is artesana? SQ: Artesana would be someone that does certain things either with seeds or whatever you could do with your hands. I guess they would call it as a crafter. JJ: Crafter? SQ: I think that’s what it would be called, crafter. JJ: So, you do different things with your hands? SQ: Yes, I like to use a lot of seeds, Puerto Rican seeds, all -- certain seeds that you can’t find in the states is what I like to use. And then, I use a lot of -- JJ: Because you’re living in Puerto Rico. SQ: Right. So, I use the seeds from here. JJ: Where are you living at right now? SQ: In Camuy. JJ: In Camuy, Puerto Rico. Okay. So, that’s where we’re doing the interview. SQ: So, the seeds -- I like to mess with the seeds. I love a lot of seed work. The problem is that it’s so hard to do because it takes a long time. I can make -- 3 �[00:04:00] one bracelet would easily take me about two weeks by the time I look for them, pick out the good ones, make sure I -- I don’t know -- I wouldn’t know how to put it in English. I would just make sure you don’t have little bugs and stuff inside your seeds. JJ: Now, is that one of those necklaces? SQ: Yes, these are one -- JJ: Did you make that? SQ: Yes, I did. JJ: Okay. And you made a lot of stuff in your house also because -- SQ: Practically everything. JJ: -- I see other things (inaudible). SQ: Yeah, I like anything that has to do with woodwork, I like. JJ: Woodwork? SQ: Anything that’s recycled. Yes, especially woodwork. JJ: So, what kind of stuff do you do with woodwork? I mean, we’ll go later on and -- SQ: What stuff do I do? JJ: Right. SQ: I love doors. I don’t know why. I have an obsession with doors. (laughs) I like doors. They have so much history in them. You know how many people touched a door? So, you never know who’s touched it, who’s opened it. So, I don’t know. I just like it. They have different size, different shapes. M: (inaudible) JJ: Come on in. Okay, so, they have different sizes and different shapes? 4 �SQ: Right. JJ: But where did you get the idea of the woodwork? SQ: My dad because Dad, he does a lot of things with his hands. And I’ve seen some of his work that he does at the house. And it’s just by, I mean, looking at him and saying, “Wow, I want to learn how to do that.” So, I would just stand there and just watch him. So, I would learn. And he’s a good teacher. To show -- he’s a good teacher. He’s nice and calm, and he’ll tell you, “Well, you can’t do it like this. Do it this way. This is the best way to do it.” So, I guess I just caught on to what he does. Yeah. [00:06:00] JJ: So, your dad does a lot of -- is he an artesano, or what does he do? SQ: Well, I wouldn’t call it artesano. I don’t know if it would be called artesano. I know that we just like to -- what we see, we might like, and we’ll just pick it up and do it. JJ: But I mean, does he do artisan crafts like you do? SQ: Well, he does cabinets sometimes and he -- JJ: Oh, he does cabinets? SQ: Yes, sometimes. And he’ll do certain things in the house. You know, “I need this. Can you do that for me?” And he can just -- JJ: Like you say I need this (inaudible). SQ: Well, it would be, “Can you fix the bathroom for me?” He’ll go do it. JJ: Okay. So, he does carpentry work. SQ: He does a little of everything. JJ: Little of everything? 5 �SQ: Yeah. JJ: But he does woodwork too? SQ: Yes, yes, he does. He doesn’t do it as design, shape of it. But he does just modern touch, nice square and -- JJ: Because in [00:07:00] Puerto Rico, they make -- sometimes people make their own houses. Did he do stuff like that? Does -- is that one? SQ: Yes, yes. That’s -- yeah, I would say that. JJ: But that’s construction. SQ: You’re right. Yeah, yeah, that’s what you would call it. JJ: That’s what he does. SQ: Construction work, right. JJ: He does construction work. But you do artesana. SQ: Mine is completely different. Mine is more taking something that you would see old and try to make it -- give it a brand new life, use it for something else. That’s what I would -- I would probably put it that way. JJ: So, you kind of got that from him as you were growing up or -- SQ: Yeah, because I would always see him in the garage, doing things. Kind of fascinated at stuff that he would do. I would just stare and look and watch. I really liked it. But then, as the years kept on going by, I would start picking up -- I think the first time I did something -- I think I sewed [00:08:00] a skirt. And I liked it. But then, I didn’t like to make clothes. But I liked to make sheets, curtains, and pillows, and things that everybody else could see, not, “Okay, I’m going to wear a skirt.” No, no, no, that’s not me. 6 �JJ: So, you always made stuff. Now, where did you get that part of you, the sewing part? SQ: I don’t know. I guess -- JJ: Was it your mother? SQ: -- it would be from -- no, not from Mom. I think it would be more like one of his sisters, [Milda?]. Yeah, she’s a sew-er. She’s another arts and crafts person. She does a lot of stuff with her hands. She does beautiful work also. JJ: So, you were close to Milda? SQ: I wasn’t close to her (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) but I think -- yeah, I just think I just caught up things that she would do too. If I didn’t understand something when I was going to school, I would go to her and I would ask, “How do you do this?” And she would explain to me, and I would just catch up and I would do it. JJ: When you say going to school -- so, did you go to school here or did you go to school -- SQ: Yeah, I also -- when we were in Aurora [00:09:00] -- we left from there when I was -- JJ: How old -- yeah, how old? SQ: -- Fifteen. I think it was a month before I turned 15. And then, I ended up here in school, which I did not like. I wasn’t too happy with the schools here at all. JJ: Why not? SQ: Well, the school’s completely different. We’re used to the state school. They have it closed. You have your hallways. You have your private bathrooms. You 7 �have everything. Here, everything is out in the open. You’ve got to go -- if it’s raining, you have to run because you’re going to get wet. There’s no hallways actually that you can say, “I’m going to get covered up. I’m not going to get wet.” Everything is completely different. JJ: I don’t understand. But you’re inside school -- SQ: You’re in the school. But the school is -- it has, you know, rooms. But if you’re ready to leave to the next room, you’ve got to go out. You’ve got to go out into the courtyard. [00:10:00] You’ve got to walk across. You’re still going to get rained on because it’s not covered. It’s not covered at all. It’s not like over there. Over there is -- you have your air conditioning. And if it’s cold, you’re nice and warm. No, not here. Make sure you bring your umbrella and your jacket. That’s how it works here. JJ: And you went to what school here? SQ: I went to the high school. I went to the high school. JJ: You went to the high school? SQ: Yes. JJ: What was it -- do you know what it was called? SQ: Yeah, Santiago R. Palmer. JJ: Okay, Santiago -- SQ: R. Palmer. JJ: R. Palmer? Okay. And so, besides the room, how were the kids and how was -- SQ: The teaching and -- JJ: Because you went all the way to 15. You were 15 years old. 8 �SQ: Right. JJ: So, you practically -- you were born in Aurora. SQ: Everything is different. First of all, it was hard for me because I didn’t know [00:11:00] a lot of Spanish. In my home, we talked Spanish. But remember, we talked Spanglish, half Spanish, half English. That’s what we usually do. We still do it. But I mean, Dad would talk to us the basic. But Mom would talk to us in English. We would go to school, everything was in English. Our friends -everybody knew English. So then, you come here to Puerto Rico, everything has changed completely. Everybody speaks Spanish. And yes, there are few people that speak English, few, as in maybe 10, could be 20, when I was in school. JJ: And then, did they speak broken English? SQ: Broken English. JJ: All of them? SQ: Not all of them. There were maybe a handful that knew good English, maybe a handful. The teachers -- which they said English teachers -- they wouldn’t be called English teachers, at least when I in school. Now -- JJ: What do you mean? Because they didn’t really understand English. SQ: They [00:12:00] didn’t understand English at all. And the English as maybe a 10th grader was learning seventh grade English at that time. JJ: Oh, so the class -- SQ: Everything. JJ: You were learning English in class. SQ: Right. But everything -- 9 �JJ: Did you learn Spanish in class? SQ: All the rest of the classes were in Spanish except one, which was English. JJ: So, you were all in Spanish. SQ: Right. JJ: But they were not -- were they teaching Spanish, or were they just -- SQ: No, they were teaching Spanish, and they were all in Spanish, except the English class. JJ: For example, the English class taught (inaudible) but the English class (inaudible). (break in audio) JJ: Okay, so, English was a subject. And so, was Spanish a subject? SQ: Yes, it was. JJ: And then, all the other classes were in Spanish. SQ: Everything else was in Spanish. JJ: But you just had one for [00:13:00] English. SQ: One for English. It was so poor English that you would get bored in the class, at least we did, or everybody that knew English got bored because it was like -instead of a 10th grade English, you would get a seventh grade English. JJ: So, for you, it was boring because you already knew it. SQ: Right, right. JJ: So, you go an A, right? SQ: Well, I mean, probably not because we would just end up fooling around in class. And then, the rest of the classes -- it was so difficult, at least for me it was and for 10 �people that didn’t really know Spanish because there’s no bilingual. That didn’t exist, bilingual classes and everything. No. It’s, “Either you listen -- if you don’t listen, well I can’t help you.” That’s the way it was. I think I was told [00:14:00] a couple of times, “If you don’t know English, then go back to the United States.” JJ: By whom? SQ: A few teachers. JJ: They came right out and told you that? SQ: Yeah, they said that a few times. JJ: So, that kind of was -- SQ: That kind of -- JJ: How did you feel (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? SQ: That made me feel not too great, you know. JJ: Were they saying it in a loving way? SQ: No, they were saying it in a sarcastic way. “If you don’t know English, then go back to where you came from.” It’s like, “We live in Puerto Rico. We speak Spanish. Learn Spanish.” Well, that’s what I came for, to learn. I mean, you don’t go to Japan and know their language, I mean, unless you are born and raised from there. You understand? So, it hit hard. It hit hard. I do remember that day when that did happen. It happened to me and my older brother. It happened to Joey too. And we went straight to Mom, and we had told her about it. And her only words were, “Just leave them because they’re ignorant.” [00:15:00] And thinking of it now, yes, it was true. They were very ignorant 11 �because, now, if you don’t know English, what’s it going to get you? Nothing, nothing at all. That’s why I showed my children -JJ: So now, you kind of feel like revenge. Is it revenge? SQ: No, not -- JJ: Now everybody needs to know English. SQ: -- not a revenge. It’s not a revenge. It’s just, you know, think before you speak. (laughter) That kind of way. I don’t want to say revenge because it doesn’t sound too good. JJ: But I mean, they were kind of wrong too. SQ: Yeah, they were wrong. JJ: They’re supposed to be responsible people -- SQ: Right. JJ: -- teachers. But you said you went to Mom, so it hurt a little. SQ: Yeah, it hurt us. But my mom knew how to explain it to us to make us feel better. She just told us, “They’re just ignorant. They don’t know what they say.” So, we just [00:16:00] left it that way. There was no -- for her -- she knew how to fix it for us so we wouldn’t feel bad. JJ: But I mean, it’s devastating because you’re coming from here -- this is, in a way, your country. SQ: Right. JJ: And then, also somebody from your country telling you that. SQ: Like I said -- well, they’re just people that say things without thinking. That’s it. You have to think before you speak. They didn’t do that. 12 �JJ: So, the next day you went to school after that. SQ: I left it like if nothing, and my brother left it like if nothing. We just left it and kept on taking normal classes. We just dropped it. JJ: But how did she act? How did the teacher act? SQ: Like if nothing, like if nothing ever happened. I guess it was just a stupid remark that the teacher said, something she wasn’t supposed to say. JJ: But she didn’t give you (inaudible)? SQ: No, because we didn’t -- JJ: She was an authority figure. SQ: Right because we didn’t even think of it. We didn’t care anymore about it. The subject was dropped. [00:17:00] We talked to our parents about it. And we dropped it. JJ: Did they do that to other kids? SQ: I don’t know. I really don’t know. Probably, but I don’t know. JJ: So, how was school in the United States, in Aurora? SQ: The school over there? Actually it was -- I liked it. I liked it because the teachers -- they were always, you know, “Do you need help? Do you need anything?” They were always making sure that if you did need help -- they let us understand that, “We’re there to help you.” But here, it’s not the same. It’s not. And now -that’s at least when I went to school. But now, for my two children, the teachers - since, you know, during the years everything does change -- the teachers now, I mean, they’re really good teachers, [00:18:00] at least the teachers that my 13 �children have gotten. My oldest son, which is 19 -- that’s Andrew -- he graduated. And I’ve never had any problems with him at all. JJ: So, he went all the way through school here? SQ: Yes. JJ: So, he was born here. SQ: Yes, he was born here. And he knew English because I showed him English. I made sure, even if you’ve never gone to the United States, you need to know English because what if you do go to the United States to make a good life for yourself? How are you going to be able to do it if you don’t know English? And he knows good English. JJ: You were born and raised in the United States. SQ: I was born and raised in the United States. JJ: But now you’re -- SQ: And my son was born and raised in Puerto Rico. The difference is -- it’s the way the parents teach your children. That’s how I figure it. And right now, my daughter -- she’s nine -- which that would be Victoria -- she knows good English, very good English. [00:19:00] So, I mean, she knows and she listens. It’s just like I say, as long as you teach them good, it’ll work out. I know it’ll work out for them during the long run in school. JJ: So, do you have plans to go back to the United States? SQ: My husband says it now, you know, “Why don’t we go back, and why don’t we do this?” I would really love to, but at the same time, I wouldn’t. The reason is because -- you know, all the gangs and everything you see on the news. I know 14 �it’s in every place. I know everywhere in the world, there’s always something. But right now, here -- I think it’s the best place for my children because right here I live, at least this part that -- where I do live, it’s [00:20:00] quiet, no gangs. I can leave my door wide open, which it’s happened. I’ve gone to sleep and I wake up in the morning, my door is wide open. I don’t have to worry about any of that, and neither do my children. So, if I were to do that in the United States, what do you think would happen? I’d probably get robbed. But for me, right now, this is a great place to show my kids, let them go to school. They don’t have to worry about much. I know the time they get home. I know they’re going to get home safely, hopefully, because you can’t always say, “It’s going to work out good for them. You don’t know that.” But so far, so good. JJ: Does your husband know English? Did he live in the United States or -- SQ: No, my husband’s never gone to the United States at all. So, he’s born and raised in Isabela. JJ: Isabela? Where is that at on the island? Do you know? [00:21:00] SQ: Oh gosh. You’re asking the wrong person. (laughter) That’s close by Aguadilla. JJ: Okay, that’s on like the west coast, by Mayagüez, Aguadilla? SQ: Yeah. JJ: Oh, on the west coast. SQ: Yes. JJ: So, he was born and raised there? SQ: Born and raised, yes. JJ: In the country, in the city, or what? 15 �SQ: I would put it the country. JJ: And then, he just decided to become a medical doctor? SQ: Yeah, I guess. He said that ever since he was small, that’s what he wanted to do. So, he wanted to become a doctor. It’s not easy here being a doctor though, not at all. The pay isn’t the same as the United States. JJ: What do you mean? SQ: Well, it’s just an example. I don’t really know. But I know [00:22:00] it’s not the same. Imagine -- you can just imagine they -- whatever a doctor from the states would get. Maybe we would get half. So, it’s not a lot. JJ: Where does he practice now? What town? SQ: He is in Bayamón. He was working in San Juan. But now, he’s in Bayamón. JJ: Do you know how to spell that? SQ: Yeah. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) SQ: I don’t know if it’s (inaudible) or not. JJ: Yeah, I understand. SQ: You’re making too much -- (break in audio) JJ: We were talking about your husband being a doctor and the differences. SQ: Well, I mean, it’s not -- I don’t know. The benefits over there, I guess, would be better than the ones here. But it’s not the same. It’s really not the same at all. JJ: And you’re saying in terms of income. SQ: Right, right. 16 �JJ: So, about half -- SQ: Yeah. JJ: -- half of there. [00:23:00] SQ: Yes. JJ: Okay, but you still -- a good status. I mean, he’s a doctor. SQ: Yeah, that’s -- yeah. JJ: So, you enjoy it? Do you enjoy that status or -- SQ: It’s okay. We enjoy our simple life. We’re not too fancy, fancy people. We like everything normal. Like why can’t we live a normal life just like normal people? Other people like -- oh, high standards or, “Oh, I’m so-and-so person.” We don’t do that. We’re just two normal people like anybody else. JJ: And recently, you just bought a house. Right? SQ: Yes. We bought this house four years ago. JJ: And was it already built, everything, or did your father help with it? SQ: Yeah, because there were a lot of things wrong with the house because I guess - we bought an as-is house. [00:24:00] JJ: A fixer. SQ: Yeah, a fixer. So, that’s what we’ve been doing. We took the garage, we made it into a -- well, we’re still doing it -- into half a living room, a family -- and then, a kitchen -- part of the kitchen. JJ: It’s a beautiful house (inaudible). SQ: Thank you, thank you. JJ: So, you said you don’t remember anything about Brady School? 17 �SQ: I don’t. Actually, I don’t remember a lot. I don’t. I really, really don’t. I don’t know if it’s that I just blurred it out or -- I don’t remember much. JJ: Do you remember your first birthday party? SQ: I do remember, when I was smaller, some things, not a lot of things. I do remember where we used to live. We used to live close by the railroad tracks. And it was on Front Street. [00:25:00] And we used to roller skate. Me and my sister, we used to roller skate down the street. So, I do remember bits and bits here and there. That, I do remember. I do remember a couple of things I did with my brother when we were growing up, but I’m not going there. (laughter) I’m not going there. But just little tiny bits of things. And then, from there, I do remember -- I think it was my 13th birthday and my 14th birthday. And that’s it. I don’t really -- JJ: So, what was your 13th birthday? I’m just trying to get an idea of what -- SQ: My 13th birthday -- it was something small (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). It was something small. It was just us at home and my best friend. That’s really it. And then, my 14th -- I do remember my 14th birthday. It was a little big. Mom gave me a little -- big birthday party, which that I do remember. And we didn’t have to worry really much about anything. JJ: Who were your close friends? SQ: I only had one really good friend. Her name was Bridget. I don’t know [00:26:00] her last name. But I do remember. And I do know my sister was able to find her not too long ago. I haven’t spoken to her, I haven’t seen her in a long time. JJ: Was she a nationality or just a regular American. 18 �SQ: She’s an American, yes. JJ: So, just -- I don’t know what nationality. SQ: No, I don’t. JJ: Just American. SQ: Yeah. JJ: Would you call it American? She’s an American? SQ: I would call her a white girl. (laughter) She had a really, really white -- and her blonde hair. But she was really smart. Well, she is really, really smart. I would call her -- “I’m going to white girl’s house.” (laughter) I don’t know. JJ: And so, you did enjoy some things in Aurora? SQ: I did. I have good memories, most of them like Christmas, but with my family. I don’t remember friends. [00:27:00] I don’t -- I think maybe there was a girl that used to live next door. Her name was Jenny. That I do -- and her brother was Julio. That I do know because her brother was my brother’s best friend, which would be Joey’s best friend, at that time. And then, Jenny would go to my house to play with my sister, which was Margie. So, that I do remember. But otherwise that, I don’t really remember -- JJ: You said Christmas. What was Christmas? SQ: Christmas -- oh, I loved Christmas because Mom would do all these things, and we would just play or sit around the Christmas tree and things that little kids did. I do remember. I do remember all those good times. Here, it’s not the same because -- I remember once Mom said, “Oh, we’ve got to go outside and look at the Christmas tree.” So, we ran outside to see the Christmas tree, and I was like, 19 �“Wow, it’s a big tree.” And when we walked up the stairs, it was a little tiny, tiny tree on top [00:28:00] of a table. (laughter) JJ: But to you, it was big. SQ: It looks really big. JJ: (inaudible) SQ: No, that was out in Aurora. Yeah. The only thing that I really, really miss is the snow. That, I do miss. JJ: Did you do activities in the snow? SQ: I remember when Dad and Mom would take us to Phillips Park to go on the sled. That, I do. I do remember that. And that -- I really miss that. I would love to take my kids someday so they can know how it feels to go down that sled on the little hills. JJ: What about -- you go bowling with you dad? I know your dad was into bowling (inaudible). SQ: Yeah, I was in bowling leagues. I was in that. I was in one because of Dad. Dad did a lot of bowling, a lot. [00:29:00] I think every Saturday, if I’m not mistaken. Every Saturday he’d say, “I’m going bowling.” And we would all tag along with Dad. I do remember that. JJ: Now, there were family people there too, right (inaudible)? SQ: Yes, a lot of family. But you know what? There was a lot of Puerto Ricans there, a lot of Puerto Ricans. So, most of the groups that were in the bowling leagues -they were mostly all Puerto Ricans. There was very little Mexicans. And there was a lot of Americans. But mostly they were Puerto Ricans. 20 �JJ: So, you remember that (inaudible). SQ: Yeah, I do remember that. That, I do remember. JJ: So, did you remember like when they had a parade or something (inaudible)? SQ: That’s the problem. I don’t remember. JJ: No, it’s not a problem. I’m just trying to find -- SQ: I don’t -- JJ: -- what you remember. SQ: Yeah, but I do -- I wish I do remember most of that stuff. But I don’t. JJ: I’m trying to find out where your thinking process, your development came in. SQ: My thinking process -- oh. (laughter) JJ: (inaudible) I mean, you go into artwork and stuff. Did you do that over there? [00:30:00] SQ: What? JJ: Your artesana, the -- SQ: Oh, in Aurora, you mean? No, I don’t think I did. No, no. I know Mom would always say that I always had bags of things and I would sit there and make stuff, and I would make Barbie clothes. I think all girls made Barbie clothes or doll clothes out of anything they could think of and find because my daughter does that now too. So, I guess, from there, it just kept on going, I do think. JJ: So, the decision comes that, “We’re moving out of here, and we’re going to Puerto Rico.” How did you feel? SQ: I wasn’t happy at all. Remember, I was going to be 15 in a month. I was going to turn 15. And every girl, at least now they do, most of the girls did either their 21 �Sweet 16 or their quinceañera, which would be their 15. I was waiting for a little party. No, I didn’t get that. [00:31:00] I got, “We’re going to Puerto Rico.” I was like, “Great.” That was my decision. I was like, “Why are we leaving?” I wouldn’t -- okay, fine, a vacation, that would be great. But I guess, at that time, I didn’t see it that way. At that time, I was really upset, like any other kid. First of all, we’re leaving our friends. Second of all, we were leaving what we knew behind. But I know my parents did it for us so we could have a better life because it was starting to get bad. So, I know Mom kept saying to us, “I’m only doing this because it’s better for us. It’s going to be better for the family. The things -- I don’t have to worry about so-and-so guy is shooting outside. Get in the house.” I guess that’s why they mostly did it, to come here. I guess it was a good decision too because we all went to school. And Mom didn’t really have to worry. And we could walk to school and come back home walking, no problem. [00:32:00] JJ: But it wasn’t bothering you, the shooting and all of that your mom was talking about. Was it bothering you? SQ: If it was bothering me? JJ: Yeah, were you worried about that? SQ: Remember, I was 14. I didn’t care about any of that. That wasn’t -- all we cared about -- our friends and what clothes and what I was going to wear the following day. I didn’t care about none of that. Now -- by thinking of it, now I would have cared because, remember, once you start getting older, then that’s when you realize, okay -- 22 �JJ: But at that time, you didn’t -- SQ: I didn’t -- JJ: -- or you were more mad that you were coming to Puerto Rico. SQ: Right. I was upset because we were coming. And I had to leave my best friend, and I had to leave my stuff, that kind of stuff. [00:33:00] JJ: But didn’t you think, “I’m coming to my home”? SQ: No, I didn’t think of that at all. I didn’t think of none of that. JJ: You didn’t think Puerto Rico is your home or -- SQ: No because -- I came a couple of times for vacation. That, I did. And it was great for vacation. But then, after a while, everybody that I knew here -everybody was older. So, I didn’t -- and then, to speak Spanish, it was so difficult. So, I didn’t really care if I came or if I didn’t come. You understand? JJ: Right. SQ: So, I didn’t really care. But then, after the weeks starting going by, then we were going to school. JJ: So, you come and where did you move to when you came here? The same -where you mother and father were staying? SQ: No, we stayed at my grandma’s house. And it was by my grandmother’s rules, and it was a little difficult because we already had Mom’s rule. Then we had to go by Grandma’s rule. So, we weren’t allowed to touch the television. The television turned on a certain hour. [00:34:00] And then, if you were watching something and the hour passed, they turned off the television. So, they didn’t care who was watching it. So, there were just little bits and bits of things that 23 �little kids didn’t really like. So, little by little -- but then, after a while, just old people thing. So, we just left it. So, we would play outside. Mom said, “There’s other things to do. Go outside and play.” So, that’s what we did. At least we had brothers and sisters because there was nobody else there to play with. JJ: Okay. And what’s your grandma’s name? SQ: Where we used to live? JJ: Your grandma -- yeah, where you stayed at. SQ: Carmen Rivera. JJ: Carmen Rivera, okay. And so, that’s not in Camuy though. She doesn’t live in Camuy. SQ: Yeah, she lives in Camuy. JJ: But not in the same section. Isn’t it Quebrada or no? SQ: Yeah, she lives in Quebrada. JJ: Oh, she does? SQ: Yeah. JJ: Okay. So, all the Quiles are in Quebrada. SQ: All the Quiles are here in Quebrada. JJ: In all the different spots. [00:35:00] SQ: Yes, we’re all here. Yes. JJ: So, was Daisy here at that time? SQ: Was Daisy here at that time? I don’t -- I think she was or -- I don’t remember. I know after a while, after a time, yes, I know she was here. I know they were fixing her house. I do remember that. 24 �JJ: To come. SQ: Yeah, to come. JJ: So, fixing her house to come. SQ: They were fixing her house to come. JJ: So, it was like a group of people coming to fix her house and coming to move her back to Puerto Rico. She wasn’t moving back. It was her husband, right? SQ: It was her husband’s house. I guess it’s from their family’s house. JJ: And your father is moving back because he was from here. SQ: Right. Actually, the house where my mom -- where I used to live -- Mom’s house was up. Except it didn’t have doors. It didn’t have windows. It had a floor. [00:36:00] And that’s it. It didn’t have anything else. JJ: So, your father finished it? SQ: Yeah, little by little. Actually we lived in the house. There was no light. And then, we didn’t have any furniture. We had a couple mattresses, I think maybe two beds. Mom slept on one. And then, all of us that wanted to sleep on the bed, we slept on it. If not -- you know, kids like to sleep on things that aren’t a bed. So, we just slept on mattresses. We didn’t care. (laughs) So, we had fun. We slept in a house with no television (laughs) at all and nothing really to do. I remember what we did most of the time. We played marbles all night. That, I do remember. Marbles all night, or we would sit on the porch, which there was no railing at the time. We weren’t allowed to sit close to the edge. [00:37:00] But we would go outside and -- but we were in our home, so it didn’t really matter. JJ: So, you just came over. Well, you had come before for vacation. 25 �SQ: Yeah, I came for vacation. JJ: So, you knew more or less how it looked? SQ: Yeah. JJ: So, it was an easier adjustment then (inaudible) but now you can’t go back to the U.S. How did you feel about that, I mean, at that time? SQ: Well, no, we couldn’t go back because we didn’t have anything to go back to because we were all over here. And the only thing that was there was Dad. But Dad was working. JJ: So, you didn’t get homesick? SQ: Well, no, because I was with my mom, and I was with my brothers. We did miss Dad. But we would get to talk to him over the phone. JJ: He was still over there? SQ: He was over there. He was working. He was working over there until he was able to come. And then, he came. JJ: So, you didn’t feel homesick? SQ: No, because I had Mom. It was fine. [00:38:00] JJ: So, then you took a few weeks and then you moved to your new hours? SQ: No, I think it took us a couple of months maybe. JJ: Now, you -- there were other people that you met. SQ: Well, when I went to school, I met a lot of people that knew English. So, that way it made it easier for me. Actually, one of my good friends here -- she came, I think it was from New York. So, she knew good English, and I was able to communicate with somebody that knew English that was easier for me because I 26 �would say a lot of words -- which I still do -- a lot of words that she didn’t even know what I was saying, that I would tell her in English. She goes, “No, you’re saying it wrong.” So, lucky for me that I did have a friend that did know English. [00:39:00] JJ: So, lucky for you that you had a friend that knew English. But I’m saying all the English speakers would hang out together? SQ: All of us would stick together, exactly. JJ: So, now you’ve got a little club here (inaudible)? SQ: Right. All the English people all together. JJ: But I’m not just -- I don’t want to put words in your mouth. SQ: No, but that’s the way it was. JJ: How was it? What do you mean? SQ: Yeah. That’s how it was. All the Americans or how I would say it -- we would all stick together. We would all speak in English, and it was easier for everybody else. JJ: So, you guys called yourself all the Americans or you -- that’s just -- SQ: They would call us the gringos in school. JJ: Yeah would call you that? SQ: Yes, (laughs) they would call us that. So, if somebody needed to speak to us, they would go, “Go to the corner and check in the gringo section.” And they would go straight to that spot. They already knew where we were at. We were at the same hour, the same time every single day. 27 �JJ: And what would you call it now? They called you gringos. What would you call them? SQ: We wouldn’t give them names. I mean, what could we call them? Everybody was Puerto Rican. (laughs) You can’t give them a name. JJ: So, you still look at them as Puerto Rican. SQ: Right. JJ: But they didn’t look at you? SQ: No, they looked at us as gringos, like white people. We just had an advantage. That’s it. We knew English. That was the only thing. We knew English and Spanish. So, it was a little difficult for them. And then, actually, when they needed help, they would go to us. They would go to the section there where we were at. “Oh, can you help me with my English class,” or, “Can you help me do this project in English?” They had an advantage too. As long as they were good to us, we weren’t going to be mean to anybody. (laughs) JJ: So, we’re talking about advantage. So, did it kind of make you feel like you knew more than they did? SQ: No. I wouldn’t -- no, no, no, no, no, no. JJ: Like superior? I mean -- SQ: Yeah. No. JJ: -- did it make you feel like superior to them? SQ: Not at all. Not at all. [00:41:00] JJ: Did they think you were superior to them? SQ: Some people thought that -- 28 �JJ: That you were (inaudible)? SQ: -- we would think that we would be too good for them because we knew English and they didn’t know English. JJ: Because you were too goody-goody or whatever? SQ: Yeah, that’s what they would think. But -- JJ: But that wasn’t what was going on. SQ: -- that wasn’t the point. No. It was -- we didn’t know how to speak good Spanish, so we had to speak English. JJ: Now, that wasn’t the point with you, but you think that could have been the point with some other people? SQ: No, actually, everybody that was with us -- that’s what our -- JJ: All the gringos. SQ: -- idea was. Right, all the gringos. We would always think, you know, nobody’s better than nobody. Mostly everybody that was there, they were from the church, so like Pentecostal. They had a different thinking. They liked to help everybody. JJ: So, most of the gringos? And I’m just saying -- just using that in quotation marks. SQ: Right, right, right (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). (laughter) JJ: Most of the gringos were -- some were Pentecostal? SQ: Right. JJ: Different Protestant churches? And the ones from here were more Catholic? Is that what it was? [00:42:00] SQ: I don’t know. I can’t -- no, I can’t -- 29 �JJ: But because they were from the church, they were more trying to help everybody? SQ: Yeah, they would help a lot. Yeah. JJ: And which school was that? SQ: Here at Santiago R. Palmer. JJ: Santiago R. Palmer. SQ: The only thing here is -- the school here is completely different because they have the elementary school, the high school, and -- what would be the other one? I don’t know. I know there’s another -- JJ: It’s like in between. Yeah, the in between. SQ: Yeah, the in between one. I always forget the in between. Well, here, they’re all together in one building. They have the different buildings. They would have the small section for the small kids. And then, you cross the street, which it’s all covered completely. You’re not allowed to pass. They had the other section, which would be the one in the middle. And then, they had the high school. But they’re all connected all together. Now, over there, [00:43:00] you have to go to certain schools because they’re all different. Not here. Everything’s all in one spot. JJ: So, you just -- when you graduated from grammar school, was going to middle school, and then you go into the high school in the same building. SQ: Right. JJ: You don’t go nowhere? SQ: No, you were all there. 30 �JJ: So, that’s kind of important. SQ: You just switch. JJ: Would that make you want to quit -- SQ: No. JJ: -- or would it make you want to stay in school? SQ: Because elementary school is on one side. And then, to go to middle school -you would have to cross the street to go to the middle school. And then, to go to the high school, you just cross the corner. It’s all one whole -- it’s like if it was one whole entire block. Let’s put it that way. Or we can put like six houses all together, and it made the school. JJ: So, you think that -- would that make people want to stay more in school or (inaudible)? SQ: Yeah, because they were all together. So then, all activities was for the whole entire school. So, it would be better. It’s not like, “Oh, we have to take the kid to go to this school, and then we’ve got to go now to this one.” No, everybody [00:44:00] goes to the same school. JJ: So, there’s no readjustment. SQ: Right. JJ: And so, it was easier for you to want to just stay in school. SQ: Right. JJ: But in the U.S., it’s different, right? SQ: Yes, it’s very different because, remember, elementary school is all school, all for little kids, which would go up to sixth grade, I think from kindergarten up to sixth 31 �grade, right? And then, from sixth grade to -- I don’t know what grade it is over there. Here -JJ: Middle school. SQ: Right. Here is from seventh to ninth -- JJ: But then, you had to go to a different school to -- SQ: Right. JJ: So, that’s a new adjustment. SQ: Right. Not here. Here is -- you know everybody and everybody knows you. That’s how it is. JJ: And so, when you came, you just had to adjust one time. SQ: Right. I didn’t have to worry about, “Oh my gosh. Now we’re going to another new school.” No, everything is all together. JJ: Do you think that helps? SQ: Yeah, it does. Actually, it does. You’re not changing your routine. [00:45:00] It’s all there. The only thing is the first day of school is normal. That’s it. JJ: So, what kind of uniform? SQ: Oh my god. I hated the uniforms. (laughter) I hated the uniforms. JJ: (inaudible) SQ: Well, at that time, which is still the same uniform, was brown. No, no, now they changed it. Now, they changed the uniforms. Back then it was brown and checkers. Ugly uniform. And before that was red, square red and blue and white. JJ: Checkers too or -- 32 �SQ: Checkers, yes. So, they had like two different -- no, terrible. Thank God I don’t go to school anymore. (laughs) JJ: So, was it just that you didn’t like the look or -- maybe that prevented gangs. What do you think? SQ: Actually, speaking of that, in the school I never saw gangs at all. No gangs at all. JJ: In the school in Camuy? SQ: No, no school -- at least here in Quebrada, no gangs at all. None at all. I mean, nothing. Everyone was “hi” to everyone, “bye” to everybody. Everybody was friends with everybody in school. There was no gangs of nothing. Thinking of it that way, no, nothing at all. I mean, not at all. If there was a fight, it was just that person. Nobody else got in it. And that’s it. But it’s -- I mean, I’ve never thought of it that way. But actually, there was no gangs at all, nothing. JJ: And you don’t think the uniforms had anything to do with it? SQ: No, I don’t think so. I think the uniform was just to help -- well now, we know you go to this school, and that’s it. You understand? So, we didn’t have -- JJ: So, then would -- SQ: -- any other kids -- JJ: Yeah, but if everybody -- SQ: -- coming from somebody else. JJ: -- if everybody’s wearing the same uniform, it would make them all from the same gang? SQ: No, no. JJ: If you’re looking it like a gang member would look at it. 33 �SQ: Okay. I don’t know because I’ve never -- JJ: Yeah, I know. (laughs) I’m just drawing this out. But could it be that the [00:47:00] uniform might help because everybody’s wearing the same uniform, so they’re not going to fight each other. SQ: Well, that wouldn’t make a difference. JJ: It wouldn’t make a difference? SQ: It wouldn’t make a difference. JJ: Okay. SQ: It wouldn’t make a difference because if you couldn’t stand the person and you still wanted to fight, you’re still going to fight the person whether he’s in the gang or not in the gang. Do you understand? So, it didn’t really make a difference at all. I don’t think it mattered. JJ: So, it was just the environment or the culture? SQ: I think it was the environment completely. Everybody got along with everybody. JJ: When you say environment, what do you mean? SQ: Well, I mean -- how would I put it to you? Everybody was nice to everybody. There was no, “Oh, I’m better than you and I’m this.” No, none of that at all. I mean, there was maybe like -- in every school there’s one kid that thought he was better than anybody else. But otherwise that, no. JJ: It was just one individual? SQ: Yeah, just one or maybe two (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) but that’s it. [00:48:00] JJ: Yeah, but it’s no group of people. 34 �SQ: No. JJ: Now, people did hang out with their little friends, didn’t they? SQ: Yes. Every -- JJ: You had the gringo group (inaudible). SQ: Right. Everybody had certain spots. I know they do that still. JJ: Right. SQ: Everybody was with everybody. And if they would say, “Hey, come over here,” everybody would go. Everybody would have fun, and everything was perfectly fine. But being as gangs here in school, I’ve never seen it. JJ: In Quebrada? SQ: In Quebrada. I’ve never saw it, never, at least when I was in school. So, that I could tell you. JJ: But you’ve heard of other gangs in other schools though? SQ: No, I haven’t. JJ: You haven’t? SQ: No. JJ: In Puerto Rico? You haven’t heard of -- SQ: Probably there is. JJ: But you haven’t heard about it? SQ: I haven’t heard of it. I guess it’s because -- I figure my children are fine. No gangs in school. Nothing’s going really bad in school, so I didn’t really worry about it. I didn’t worry. JJ: So, even the gringos got along with the ones from here. [00:49:00] 35 �SQ: Yeah. Everybody got along. JJ: And the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). SQ: Yeah. Everybody got along with everybody. JJ: -- easier to communicate. SQ: Right. JJ: But there was some little -- SQ: There’s always that petty talk and that stuff always. It doesn’t matter where you live. It doesn’t matter who you are. That’s always everywhere. JJ: So, what do you think contributed in the environment? What was the good thing in the environment that made people not want to be in gangs? SQ: I think it’s because everybody’s straight out. I was taught from my mom if you don’t like something say it, but say it to the person. So, I guess that’s how everybody was. JJ: Straightforward? SQ: Right. Everybody let you know, but not in a bad way, let you understand, “Hey, I didn’t like it.” And I think that’s the best. JJ: So, people -- SQ: And I’ve taught my son that. If you don’t like something, don’t make them feel bad, but just let them know that you didn’t like it. JJ: Why would you tell your son that? SQ: I would tell my son so that if there was something that he [00:50:00] didn’t like from somebody, that that person did, just let them know, “I don’t like what you said. Don’t do it again.” 36 �JJ: But why wouldn’t you hold it in? SQ: Why would you hold it in? Then you get mad and you get upset. Then you hate the person. And then, what comes out of that? Nothing. So, just let the person know, “I didn’t like it.” And if you tell them you don’t like it, they won’t do it again. That’s it. JJ: So, you think that’s better. If you hold it in, it’s worse -- SQ: Right. JJ: -- than if you tell somebody? SQ: I think it is. JJ: But why? I don’t understand? SQ: You don’t understand? JJ: No. SQ: Well, because sometimes, if you hold it in and then they do it again, you get more upset. And then, they do it again and you get more upset because you didn’t say anything. And then, you get really mad and really mad. And then, what’s the next thing? You’re going to argue with the person because of it. So, just let them know straight off the first time, “I didn’t like it.” But say it in a nice way, not in a bad, nasty way. Tell them in a nice way, “I didn’t like it. Can you please not do it again?” And then, I guess they -- most people would get it. “I’m not going to do it again because [00:51:00] I don’t want to hurt their feelings.” So, they don’t do it again. JJ: So, you’re trying to teach your children communication. 37 �SQ: Right. That’s the best. If you communicate with the person, nobody’s going to argue. No one’s going to fight. No one’s going to think you’re better than anybody. You’re just the same person as everybody else. That’s how I see it. JJ: And most of the people in the area, in Quebrada, were -- taught their children to be like that or to be straightforward? SQ: Well, most of my friends, when I was in school -- that’s how I know their kids are because, when my son is at the house, I usually end up with his friends, and that’s how his friends are with him. “I didn’t like that.” They let them know. They communicate. That’s good. I always tell them, “That’s better than arguing. That’s better than fighting.” It’s the best way. I guess that’s the way Mom and Dad showed us. JJ: Okay, well, that’s a good point. Mom and Dad. You had Mom and Dad. [00:52:00] SQ: Right. JJ: But did most of the children around here have a mom and dad? SQ: Yes. Like I said, at least the ones that I know of, yes, they do. JJ: So, they have both parents in their house? SQ: Yes, yes. There could be maybe one or two that didn’t. But they still knew because their parents would show them. Either the mom or their dad would show them. JJ: Okay. So, even if they didn’t have Mom and Dad, they still had a strong person to -- SQ: Right. 38 �JJ: -- like a mother or father that raised them -- SQ: Right. JJ: -- and taught them how to communicate. That’s what you’re saying? SQ: Yeah. JJ: Okay. That’s good insight. So, did you have your quinceañera here or -- SQ: No, no. JJ: Did you -- SQ: I didn’t. Why -- I mean, we came to Puerto Rico a month before my 15th. So, I did get a little birthday party. I felt really bad because I know [00:53:00] my mom felt too because she invited a few of my friends and nobody came. (laughs) But the people that were there -- I had fun. It was okay. JJ: But some people came. SQ: Yeah, I think one of my friends. One. (laughter) And the rest of it was the family, like my cousins. JJ: Because you didn’t know anybody. SQ: Yeah, that was the problem. We didn’t know anybody at all. JJ: Because I always know your mom is -- when she invites people, there’s a lot of people (inaudible). SQ: Yes, there’s always big gatherings at the house, always. Yeah. But we didn’t know anybody at all. We were just coming here. We hadn’t -- I didn’t know anybody. I only knew one person really. And then, that’s when I started knowing more people from school, little by little. 39 �JJ: So, now you’re -- are you relating to your aunts and uncles here? How is life now? Once you’re back -- now with your -- at your father’s house, right, at your house? [00:54:00] SQ: When I’m with my dad, at Dad’s house? JJ: Yeah. SQ: Well, I would see my aunts and uncles if we would go to their house or if we would see them at my grandma’s gatherings at her house. That’s when I would see all of my aunts and uncles. JJ: So, gatherings. So, certain special days of the year? SQ: Yeah. Sometimes they would do Grandma’s birthday or Thanksgiving. JJ: So, what was that like? I mean, (inaudible) -- SQ: Oh my gosh. That’s -- JJ: People show up or -- SQ: -- too many people. Too many, yeah. Well, my grandma had 12 kids. So, imagine that by probably each family five maybe. Could be less, but I don’t think so. (laughs) So, it’s a lot of people, a lot. JJ: So, people showed up? SQ: Big gatherings, yeah. JJ: Did they play music or anything? [00:55:00] SQ: No, hardly ever. There was hardly ever any music. I didn’t think they really needed the music because everybody was talking and you couldn’t hear anything anyway. 40 �JJ: Right. Was it -- they didn’t because of religion or something? They didn’t believe in (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). SQ: I think it was because of Grandma. My grandmother didn’t like the music. She would say it’s too much noise. So, they wouldn’t put music, at least at my grandma’s house. No music at all. At all. No one was allowed to put music on. (laughs) JJ: (inaudible) SQ: But I know my uncles -- they would play the guitar. And they would play with the güiro and the maracas. That, I know they would do (overlapping dialogue; inaudible), which they didn’t really how to touch it. JJ: [Armando?] and them? SQ: Yeah. They didn’t really know how to play the music and stuff, but they would do their little movements here and there. And everybody would laugh and sing at the same time. JJ: Right. SQ: So, it was good. JJ: So, you didn’t go at all to San Salvador though? You didn’t go to Caguas or -- SQ: Yeah, I did actually. [00:56:00] I stayed there when my Aunt -- JJ: Because that’s your mother’s side -- SQ: -- Mirna lived there. JJ: -- of the family. 41 �SQ: Right. I was there when (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Titi Mina was there. And then, Titi Lacey and Tío Israel, when they had -- they were living in the house -- JJ: Oh, they were. SQ: -- that was there. I did stay there. I do remember Tío a lot. He would always be fixing the -- the back part, there was a little stream or a little -- JJ: Back -- in the back. You’re right. SQ: -- tiny stream. He would always make sure -- you’ve got to keep the rocks this way so the water doesn’t over pour on this side. And I do remember when it would rain a lot, the water would grow. JJ: You’re talking about Israel? SQ: Yeah. JJ: Tío Israel. So, he would be playing with the (inaudible). SQ: He would make sure -- it wouldn’t be -- I wouldn’t call it fixing -- you know, playing with it. I would think he would just be more fixing it so the water wouldn’t go towards his house. I do remember that. I do remember him always outside. I’ll never forget that. [00:57:00] And he still does it. He’s always outside in the yard, him and his yardwork. He doesn’t know the words “stay still.” (laughs) That I do realize a lot here from the older Puerto Ricans. Like I have a neighbor. She’s old. She’s really old. And she doesn’t stay still at all. I either see her with a shovel in her hands -- she’s always doing something. And I was like, “Can you be still?” She won’t be still. She’s constantly with the shovel. “No, I have to do this, and I have to plant this.” She’s either planting tomatoes or peppers, 42 �something. She’s always doing something. And I realize most Puerto Ricans from the older time -- that’s what they do. They’re always planting something, always. JJ: So, as you go over there, was he planting anything? [00:58:00] Was Israel planting anything at the house? SQ: Tío, he always did. Always, always. I can’t tell you one thing that he -- he’s always -- he always -- I do remember, without a doubt, we always had banana trees, always. JJ: Over there? SQ: Always. He always had banana trees. That I do remember. JJ: At that house? SQ: Yep. And then, I think -- the first time I saw -- to me, it was fascinating was -they would do the rice. And then, they would put these bananas leaves on it. The first time I saw it, I was like, “Why are they putting grass on the rice?” (laughter) I never knew what it was. And then, you know, after a while, they would explain to me. If gives it better taste to the Puerto Rican rice. I was like, “Oh, okay.” To me, that was like -- wow. Why would you put grass or a plant inside your rice? I never figured that one out until little by little you start learning the old tricks the old people do. I mean, I’m [00:59:00] not saying that they’re really old. But the older, older people would do that. JJ: Okay. When I came here the first time, I started discovering new things. I was even eating grass because I thought -- they would give it to me and I would eat it. SQ: Grass? 43 �JJ: I mean, different -- SQ: It would probably recao. JJ: No, they were playing with me. They would bring me a food and then they would give me a grass. SQ: How would they do that? That’s not nice. JJ: I mean, they would (inaudible) I’m just -- but I was learning things. I was fascinated. I was learning things (inaudible) like that. So, what sort of things were you learning as you came here? SQ: Well, I did learn recao goes in the food here. (laughs) I never knew that. I knew my mom, in Aurora -- they would buy it, but it would be already fixed up and everything. But then, I saw Dad one time -- or I think it was my mom -- taking out stuff. I was like, “Mom, why are you going to put grass in the food?” She goes, “It’s not grass. Smell it.” I was like, “I’m not smelling that.” And then, once I started cutting and figuring it out, what’s it for, and she would explain to me, [01:00:00] I was like, “Wow, all these different things that you don’t see in the states at all, you get it here anywhere.” I mean, any piece of grass you can find it. It’s like if it’s wild stuff, they put it in the food. And it tastes really good. JJ: So, the recao you got to know that. SQ: Yeah, the cilantrillo. JJ: Cilantrillo. SQ: That’s also -- JJ: What about fixing different food? Did you learn how to fix different food? SQ: Yeah. Mom showed me, and Dad did too. Dad cooks really good. (laughs) 44 �JJ: Really? SQ: Yeah. Mom showed us, my sister and me, how to do certain foods with certain stuff, like the recao, the cilantrillo. Well, they would call it -- what? Recao? JJ: Yeah. SQ: Not the recao, sofrito. It would be the sofrito. JJ: Sofrito. SQ: Yes. JJ: She showed you that? She showed [01:01:00] how to do the sofrito? SQ: She showed me how to do that. That’s -- JJ: So, what is -- SQ: Sofrito is -- well, it would be something that you would stick to taste, give a good Puerto Rican taste to the food, which it would have recao, cilantrillo, onions, green beans -- I mean, not green beans -- what was -- JJ: Peppers? SQ: -- green peppers, yes, green peppers, and especially -- JJ: Onions? SQ: -- and especially ajo, especially that. JJ: So, you can’t get that over at the -- SQ: The ajo, yeah. You can get ajo in -- that would be garlic. JJ: Oh, garlic (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). SQ: Yes. JJ: That would have been (inaudible) those three peppers too, right? 45 �SQ: That would be aji dulce, yes. You have to. If you don’t put that in and you don’t put recao, that’s no sofrito. (laughs) You have to have those two. Those are the very first thing everybody runs to get to do the sofrito. It is your recao and your aji dulce. [01:02:00] JJ: Okay. You’ve got to have that in there? SQ: You have to have that in there. JJ: Now, do they put tomato in there or no? They don’t (inaudible). SQ: My mom never did. But some people do it. But my mom never did it. She liked it -- the green one, not the red on. JJ: Do you fry anything like tocino or anything to put the flavor or no? SQ: Yeah, it all depends what rice you’re going to do. JJ: Oh, that’s for the rice -- SQ: Right. JJ: -- but not for the sofrito. SQ: Yeah, yeah. You can do it whichever way you want to. You could do it by itself. You could put beans in it. You could do whatever. JJ: So, you could put whatever you want in the sofrito? SQ: Yeah, whatever you want. JJ: So, you do that first. And you cook that first. And then, you put the (inaudible). SQ: And then, I put everything in. JJ: And you put the rice in it. SQ: Right. JJ: Okay. That’s a good one. Now I know how to do that. (laughter) 46 �SQ: You didn’t know how to do that one, did you? JJ: (inaudible) SQ: A lot of people say, “Oh, Puerto Rican food is difficult.” I don’t know if it’s because I’m Puerto Rican, but it’s easy. I remember the first time my mom showed me how to cook. She could have showed me the easiest thing to make, and it was the first thing I burned, which was white rice. I burned it. And my mom goes, “What smells?” [01:03:00] I go, “Well, I cooked rice.” She says, “You didn’t lower the fire.” (laughs) So, I burned it. I do remember that. And that was the first time I ever cooked. That was in Aurora. Very first time. JJ: Now, when you were in Aurora, did you tell people you were Puerto Rican or you were American? SQ: I guess they already knew the way we would speak. JJ: But you didn’t have an accent. I mean, you grew up there. SQ: Well, I guess probably -- I don’t know -- I probably did. JJ: But you’re saying people knew that you were Puerto Rican? SQ: Yeah, I was called -- sometimes I was called Mexican. I would say, “I’m not Mexican. I’m Puerto Rican. I’m full blooded Puerto Rican.” And I would say I’m full blooded because my mom and my dad -- they’re both Puerto Ricans. JJ: Right. Even though you were born here. SQ: Right. JJ: Okay. But you felt like you were -- SQ: I was still Puerto Rican. [01:04:00] I mean, my mom and my dad were Puerto Rican. I would call myself an American Puerto Rican. 47 �JJ: Okay. So, you came here already feeling Puerto Rican. But then, you came here and you wanted to be gringa. SQ: I came here, I felt like a mouse (laughs) because I didn’t know what I was doing. I was afraid of everything. JJ: You were afraid? SQ: Right. But then, that is a point. I came here -- JJ: Afraid of the people or -- SQ: I was afraid of everything because everything was different. Everything was completely different. The roads were different as in the roads over there are straight. And over here, it’s just curves and curves and the mountains and curves. It’s scary. And then, all you can see is -- you look down the side and all you can see is a cliff. And you look on the other side, you can see another cliff. And I was like, “I’m just looking straight.” (laughter) You feel like a little mouse. [01:05:00] JJ: But that’s in the road. But I mean, did the people make you feel like -- make you shy or no? SQ: Well, in school, yeah, because I didn’t know. I didn’t know how to speak good Spanish. I knew a lot of stuff, but I didn’t know good Spanish. I still don’t know good Spanish. Don’t get the wrong. Because I still give that Spanglish. If I don’t know what I’m saying, I’ll say it in English, or if I don’t understand it in English, I’ll say it in Spanish. But I just feel like a little tiny mouse because you don’t know where you’re at and you don’t know what you’re doing. I guess it would be like that everywhere you would go new. So, it’s just adapting little by little. 48 �JJ: So, it definitely made you feel kind of shy in the beginning. SQ: Right. JJ: But you don’t feel like that now? SQ: No, not at all. JJ: Okay, not at all? SQ: Not at all. JJ: Your neighbors know that, right. (laughter) SQ: Yeah, the neighbors hear me from a mile away. I’m just kidding. [01:06:00] JJ: But I mean, you’ve got a whole -- all those neighbors around you know you, right? I mean, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). SQ: Yes, I know all of my neighbors. JJ: You know a lot of people in the barrio. SQ: Yes, I do, especially my neighbors. I know all my neighbors. And I guess it would be like the States, “Hi,” and, “Bye,” and that’s it. But the only difference is we can keep our doors open. That’s the only difference. JJ: You couldn’t do that in Aurora? SQ: No, not at all. JJ: Because you can keep your doors open and your neighbors know -- they watch out too, or no? SQ: Yeah because sometimes -- like an example, if I’m sick or something and the neighbor knows you’re sick, all the sudden you see your neighbor comes up with a bowl of soup in their hands. You know, “I made you some soup.” And the other neighbor comes and goes, “Oh, I made you some supper.” That’s how the 49 �neighbors here are. We try to take care of one another. So, if something’s wrong with one and then -- [01:07:00] we just try to communicate. Some neighbors are good. Not all neighbors are good. Don’t get me wrong. JJ: There’s one or two that are not (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? SQ: I guess in every place, there’s always one person that doesn’t like this or one person that doesn’t like that. Do you understand? It’s not here. It’s not there. It’s everywhere. It doesn’t matter. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) what I’m trying to find is what would -- in this place, what would make somebody not like their neighbor or their neighbor not liking you? SQ: I guess -- JJ: I mean, for what kind of things would they be angry about? SQ: I don’t know. Maybe, I guess, they’re just grouches or -- I don’t know -- or they just -- JJ: Did you go on their grass or something? SQ: No. That’s a good thing. Here, there’s very, very little houses with fences, I mean, that don’t have a fence because all the houses here have fences. So, it doesn’t matter [01:08:00] whether you walk on the grass or not because the only one that’s going to walk on the grass is you because it’s your house. Now, over there -- and I know in Aurora. JJ: But there’s always grass in the front. I mean, there’s always -- SQ: Yeah. But that part -- they don’t really care because they usually say that’s the government. 50 �JJ: Oh okay. SQ: Because actually the government’s the one who cuts the grass. But inside -here, I think maybe one -- you can go all the way down the road, and you can find one house that has no fence. All the rest of the houses have to have fences. I like my house without a fence. But I got lucky. I ended up with a house with a fence. JJ: But before they didn’t have fences -- I mean, they did have -- I guess they had some made out of -- it wasn’t fancy fences. Now, they’re more fancy. SQ: Yeah, now they’re more fancy. JJ: They’re more fancy. SQ: I do remember pictures that they did show me, which was my ex-mother in law -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) how many years (inaudible)? [01:09:00] SQ: I’ve been here -- in this house? JJ: No, in (inaudible). SQ: Oh my gosh. I don’t remember. Twenty -- JJ: Is it that long? SQ: Yeah, 27, 28, something like that. JJ: Wow, okay. So, your neighbors, as you were saying -- what were you saying? SQ: I don’t even remember. JJ: I did you stop you there. Sorry. SQ: That’s okay. (laughs) JJ: We were talking about the neighbors. 51 �SQ: Okay. My ex-mother in law -- she showed me pictures. When she came here, there was -- actually where I live now, there was this house, the house in the front, and the house on the side. And there were no other houses except two more houses all the way down on the corner. That’s it. No more houses. Now, there’s houses everywhere. And then, the road was a dirt road. It was just no tar, no straight, nice, clean street. No, everything [01:10:00] was just a dirt road. JJ: So, they just put the cement road. SQ: Not now. I mean -- JJ: A long time ago. SQ: Yeah. But when she came -- JJ: When she came, it wasn’t here. SQ: -- there was no road really here. There was just dirt. It was a dirt road. JJ: But so, now it’s pretty -- most of the houses, when there’s like a hurricane, there’s no problem, right? SQ: No, not -- unless your house is made out of wood. That’s really it. But there’s hardly any houses nowadays made out of wood. They’re very few, and the very few is -- they’re little, tiny houses. JJ: In the United States, in Florida, they even have cement houses that are messed up. But they have glass though. SQ: The glass broken? JJ: Yeah, they had glass. SQ: Well, yeah, that happens here with the glass. JJ: Glass (inaudible). 52 �SQ: Yeah. But otherwise that -- JJ: Otherwise the house is pretty sound? SQ: I don’t know about mine because mine’s really old, old house. I don’t know (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) how old it’s been. [01:11:00] Yeah, as long as it’s cement, it’s good. JJ: So, you finished school. You finished high school? Did you finish that or no? SQ: (inaudible) to say, no I didn’t finish. JJ: You didn’t? When did you drop out? SQ: I dropped out, I think, when I was in 11th, 10th and 11th because I had so many classes back -- JJ: You only needed one more year. One more -- SQ: Right. I -- no, no. JJ: Because it’s -- SQ: Not because I needed one more year. I needed more than one more year because I had ninth grade Spanish, 10th grade Spanish, 11th grade Spanish. (laughs) You see, the Spanish was difficult for me. So, I just dropped out. And what I did was I took my GED. JJ: Oh, you got your GED. SQ: Yeah, [01:12:00] I took half the GED. I didn’t take the other half. JJ: Wait a minute. You dropped out of 11th because you were having difficulty. SQ: No, I dropped out in ninth grade. JJ: Oh, in ninth grade because you were having difficulty? 53 �SQ: Yes, because remember whether I am taking 11th grade classes, I’m still in ninth grade because I didn’t finish my Spanish. So, I’m still in ninth grade when I’m taking 11th grade classes. JJ: Right. Hold on one second. (break in audio) JJ: Okay, so we’re talking about some of the reasons why you wanted to drop out. SQ: Well, I dropped out because I wasn’t doing anything in school. I was just fooling around. I didn’t really -- Mom thought -- JJ: Fooling around with a boyfriend -- SQ: I didn’t care. JJ: -- or something? SQ: No, no, no, no. I didn’t care. I didn’t know Spanish. I didn’t really care what I was doing. You’re young and you’re stupid. And you don’t think of the future. You just think, “Oh, I want to have a good time,” and that’s it. [01:13:00] So, I ended up dropping out. I took the GED. I did that. And when while I was taking my GED, I was taking cosmetology school at the same time. JJ: How old were you? SQ: So, I took my test. JJ: But you dropped out for a few years first? Or was it just one year -- SQ: No, I just -- JJ: Right away, you dropped -- SQ: Right away, right away. JJ: -- and then started cosmetology? 54 �SQ: A couple months -- yes, a couple months later, I took -- JJ: And then, (inaudible). SQ: I took my GED. I was old enough to take my GED. I took it. Then, I went -- I took cosmetology. I did that for a few years, and I have my license and my diploma. JJ: So, you took cosmetology for a few years. So, you graduated? You said you got your license. SQ: From cosmetology. JJ: What is cosmetology? What is that? SQ: I cut hair. I do girl stuff, like I say. JJ: Oh, okay. I call them barbers. SQ: Of course, because barbers are the guys. The guys do the hair. (laughter) I’m a cosmetologist. I do all girl stuff. [01:14:00] So, I figured out, “Okay, I’m not going to just sit down, not do nothing.” So, I went to school. I did that. Actually, I got that -- you usually have to pay. I got it free. I didn’t want to -- JJ: Now, see, that’s creative. So, you’re more creative. So, that’s something that you would like to do. SQ: Right. JJ: The school was getting boring. You didn’t -- SQ: Yeah, it was really boring. (laughs) JJ: I’m just trying to find out why you dropped out. SQ: I was fooling around. I was just a girl that liked to have fun, didn’t want to do school stuff. I didn’t care about school. I didn’t really care. So, like I said, 55 �(overlapping dialogue; inaudible) I was young and stupid. I didn’t think of my future. JJ: Yeah. But I mean, do you know why you didn’t care? SQ: No. That’s what I’m saying. I was young and stupid. I didn’t care of anything. And then -- JJ: You just didn’t have any goals. SQ: Right. JJ: Is that what you’re trying to say? SQ: Right, right. I didn’t (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) have any goals in life at that time. At that time, I didn’t care what I was going to do.” JJ: So, you weren’t thinking about what you were going to do -- SQ: No, I wasn’t thinking of anything. JJ: -- ten years from now. But then, you got into cosmetology. SQ: I got into cosmetology. [01:15:00] JJ: So, why did you get into that? SQ: Because I liked it. Mom says, “If you like it so much, why don’t you go to school?” JJ: So, you were doing it anyway? SQ: I was doing hair and makeup in my house. So, Mom said, “Well, if you like it, do it.” So, I did. I went. I took cosmetology. I did that. I liked it. Then I ended up working in different salons. JJ: Okay. So, you did get a job doing that. SQ: Yes, I did get a job doing that. 56 �JJ: So, you have theory and practice. You have done that. Then you got a license. SQ: Right. JJ: Okay, so, actually you can do that -- that’s a business. SQ: Right, I could if I want to. But it gets boring. At least -- I get bored after a while. I don’t understand why. I like to do different things because I get bored. JJ: Well, some people are creative. And some people are -- SQ: I like to do the stuff -- JJ: -- they make -- they’re day to day stuff. So, there’s nothing wrong with that. I mean, I -- what I’m saying is there’s difference. SQ: Oh, okay. JJ: You know that. [01:16:00] So, that’s probably why you get bored. You’re more the creative type. SQ: Right. I (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) did like to do hair because I could do different stuff. And I did makeup because it was different. I didn’t like to cut hair. I did do it, but I didn’t like it. It wasn’t a passion for me. But I liked to comb hair because, remember, once you comb hair, it’s one hairstyle. It’s a different thing. You’re going to do something different. So, that’s what I like to do. I guess I like to be the different one. JJ: But I don’t want to put words in your mouth. I mean, that’s what I’m thinking, that you’re a creator. I don’t know if you’re a creator or not. SQ: I hope so. (laughter) I hope so. So then, after that, I worked in a few salons. Then I worked in the mall for a while. I did have my son though also. So, I was a single mom. I was married. 57 �JJ: What’s your son’s name? SQ: Andrew. JJ: Andrew? SQ: I was married. Then I guess young and stupid. We got divorced. JJ: So, you were married before. To whom was that? SQ: To Alex. JJ: Alex? SQ: Yeah. JJ: Now, was he from here? SQ: Yeah. He was from New York. JJ: Oh, that was [Posty?]. I remember him, Posty. They used to call him Posty? SQ: Yes. JJ: I remember because -- SQ: They used to make fun of him. JJ: -- I came to visit. When I came to visit, they called him Posty because you were always hanging out -- onto the [post?]. SQ: Yeah, he’s so tall. (laughter) JJ: Right. SQ: He is so tall and I’m so short. But like I say, young and stupid. I got married when I was 21. I had my son. JJ: Young and stupid meaning -- because you were with him for a while though, right? SQ: Yeah, I was with him about seven, eight years. We got married. 58 �JJ: And he was from New York? SQ: He was from New York. JJ: He grew up in New York City? SQ: Yeah, he grew up there and then came here. And I guess I was his [01:18:00] girlfriend from high school. So, I ended up with him one year of marriage, one year, just one year. JJ: You guys just didn’t get along? SQ: No, at all. Like I’ve always said, he’s a great person. He’s a good dad. And I couldn’t -- picked the best father for my child. But as a husband, I don’t want him, not even as a gift. (laughs) We get along. We still do get along. We get along. JJ: So, he did not have husband skills as (inaudible)? SQ: I guess we were, like I said, young and stupid. We were both stubborn. It was what I wanted. It was what he wanted. So, two people butting heads is not easy. JJ: But he was not abusive or anything? SQ: No, no, no, no. JJ: Just stubborn. SQ: Just stubborn. JJ: Okay. Just a couple thing. SQ: Stubborn. JJ: So then, you -- [01:19:00] is he Andrew’s father? SQ: Yes, he’s Andrew’s dad. Yes. We get along for our child’s sake. Even though I say my child -- he’s, what, 19. 59 �JJ: But Victoria is Victor’s? SQ: Right. Victoria is from my second. JJ: From your second. Okay. SQ: I’m staying with that one. (laughs) That’s good enough. I’m going right now -with my second husband -- on 17 years. I did -- JJ: Some people do -- SQ: -- I am 17 years. JJ: Some people do marry a few times. SQ: Yeah, you’re the only (inaudible). (laughter) JJ: I’m not in the interview. This is yours. So, your son is born. Where was he born? SQ: We only lasted a year of marriage. JJ: He was born here? SQ: Yes, he was born here. He was born in Arecibo. JJ: In the hospital in Arecibo. [01:20:00] So now you’re a mother. How does that feel? SQ: Great. I love my kids. That’s the best feeling, the best feeling you can get, being a mama. JJ: So, that was a good thing? SQ: Every day is something different. Every day. JJ: So, how was he growing up? SQ: He was a quiet child, quiet, didn’t bother me, just quiet. I mean, I couldn’t ask for the best child -- and then, the first one usually is so difficult. It was so easy for 60 �me. I guess it was because -- since my brother was small, I already had the practice with my brother because my mom would have put me to babysit. So, it was easier for me for my son. JJ: You’re talking about Danny. SQ: Yeah, Danny. JJ: Danny was small, so you were babysitting Danny. SQ: Yeah. JJ: So, that was like practice. SQ: I guess. I would call it practice, yeah. JJ: Were you changing diapers and things like that? So, you already knew how to [01:21:00] (inaudible). SQ: I knew how to handle that, yes. JJ: How to handle all the yelling and screaming? (laughs) SQ: Yeah. And then, well, Andrew, he’s -- what -- 19 now. I still call him my baby, still my baby. But 19 and he’s tall, really tall. JJ: And he went to school -- didn’t he got to -- SQ: Yeah, he went to school. He’s a chef now. JJ: He’s a chef? SQ: Yeah, he went to culinary school. He’s a chef. JJ: So, did he finish his high school or no? SQ: Yes, he finished high school. JJ: And then, he went to culinary school, or did he go to college? SQ: Yes, he went to -- no, he went to culinary school. 61 �JJ: Okay, he went to culinary school. Okay. And now that’s what he’s doing? He’s a chef? SQ: Yes, he’s a chef. I think he wants to go to Virginia to go study something else. I’m not sure what the something else is. But I know he wants to keep studying. But sometimes he wants to go, sometimes he doesn’t. I told him, “You’ve got to make up your mind because life is short. Do what you like to do now because life is short.” Do it right. I let him -- I let my child learn [01:22:00] the hard way and I don’t know if that’s because that’s what my parents showed me, you have to learn the hard way. They didn’t always give it to you, “Here, take this,” in a silver platter, “Do it this way.” They said, “Is that’s what you want, you have to earn it.” So, that’s how I show my child, my two kids. So, my daughter -- yeah, she’s a spoiled one. (laughs) JJ: But do you think they mean -- when they say you learn the hard way, do you think they mean you’ve got to work hard or -- SQ: I had to work for what I wanted. JJ: Right. You think that that’s -- SQ: Right. JJ: -- what they meant or -- SQ: Right, yeah. JJ: -- or learn the -- SQ: No, no, not -- JJ: “I learned the hard way and I’m (inaudible).” 62 �SQ: Well, everybody’s different. You understand? But my mom showed us -- I can’t give it to you because then you’re not going to know what the value is. Do you understand? So, you have to work for it. JJ: So, you have to work. SQ: Right. So, you have to work for what you want, like my son. My son says, “Oh, my car broke down.” “What do you want me to do?” [01:23:00] “Can you give me some money?” “No, go get a job.” And that’s why I -- I try to show my daughter too. I didn’t have everything handed to me in my hands. I have to figure out how am I going to get it so I can get a better life? How can I do it? What can I do so you can get it better? That’s what she says, “Well, if you give me a dollar, I can use 50 cents and I can save the rest.” And I got, “That’s (inaudible) way to earn your money because I’m not going to give you what you want.” Nowadays, everybody goes, “Oh, so you’ll shut up and leave me alone, I’ll go buy it.” No, I’m not going to do that. Even though my kids are spoiled because I do try to give them everything they do want. But I try to show them a certain point. I’ll give you half, but you’ve got to give the other half so then you can get what you want. Because they’re not going to learn the value. And that’s how my mom showed me. [01:24:00] I guess it’s the way they say -- the way your mom teaches you, that’s the way you’re going to teach your kids in the future. And that is so true. That is so true. JJ: So, what about Victoria? How did you feel when she was born? That’s a different -- SQ: Oh my gosh. It was completely -- 63 �JJ: So, you were separated for one and then you got married. SQ: We weren’t separated at all. We were -- JJ: I mean, you were in your -- SQ: My husband? JJ: -- Andrew’s -- SQ: -- Andrew, yeah. But Andrew’s father is apart. I was with Victor. Victoria is Victor’s. JJ: So, he left right away after the birth. SQ: Well, because -- JJ: So, actually Victor raised Andrew. SQ: Andrew, right. JJ: Oh, Victor raised Andrew too. SQ: Yes. Victor’s been with Andrew since he was two years old. JJ: Okay. That’s what I was -- okay. So, Victor raised him too. SQ: Yeah, they both did because the dad was always there for his son, always. There was no doubt about that. He was always with his child no matter what. JJ: Okay. So, he’s been in contact with Andrew? SQ: Yeah, always, always. JJ: Okay. SQ: No matter what. If [01:25:00] there’s a problem, I call his father, let him know. JJ: Everybody gets along? 64 �SQ: Everybody gets along. That’s the first and the main thing, I always say. Good communication with the dad’s child because you need him. It takes two people to show your child. Not only one did it, both. JJ: What do you mean, it takes two people? SQ: Well, because he’s a boy. If she was a girl, I could show her the girl things. Now, he’s a boy. Who is he supposed to go to? He could go to my husband. But he had to go to his dad so his dad would explain to him -- which my husband would explain to him and tell him things, but his dad also had to do that because that’s Dad’s part. And that’s the good thing of life. “I’m a dad. My son asks me these questions. What do I tell him?” Do you understand? JJ: So, Victoria -- we’re talking about Victoria now. [01:26:00] SQ: Oh, Victoria. Well, what do you want to know about Victoria? She’s -- JJ: Well, just -- I mean, she was a little girl when -- just to (inaudible). SQ: She’s a firecracker. JJ: She’s part of your story. SQ: My son was nice and calm. Now, this one’s the firecracker. (laughs) JJ: And she’s going to see this later. Explain what you mean. Explain what you mean. SQ: Well, she’s too hyper. And she’s just -- she listens and she wants to know everything. “What’s that? And what do you use that for? And why do you have that? And I don’t understand.” You know, these questions. Why, what -- too many questions, I tell you. It’s too many questions. “Calm down. Wait a second. Mom will answer one at a time.” [01:27:00] And she’s like, “Hurry, hurry, hurry, 65 �hurry, hurry.” So, she wants to know more. So, I guess she’s just -- she’s not easy to handle. She’s a great daughter. She’s great. And that -- I won’t deny it. But she just -- I guess her brain is just like, “What’s that for? I want to know.” If there is something that I don’t know -- actually in the computer -- I end up calling, “Victoria, I don’t understand this. Can you help me?” She’s nine years old, and she’ll just do it right away. She goes, “Mom, you’ve got to do this, this, this.” Nowadays, it’s like, “Wow, what happened?” Kids are just -- they know more than older people now. I guess the problem is also -- I never babied my kids. I showed my kids as an adult. So, my daughter talks as an adult. I guess that helps also. JJ: Now, what do they think? Are they Puerto Rican or how do they feel? [01:28:00] SQ: Who, my kids? JJ: Yeah. Or do they even think like that? SQ: My kid does, yeah, both of my kids. “I’m Puerto Rican. My mom and my dad are Puerto Rican.” Andrew’s dad is half Cuban. JJ: Oh, he is half Cuban. SQ: So, he does certain things and says certain things that are different than what we do. JJ: Different words. SQ: Yeah, different words. JJ: Different accents and stuff like that. SQ: Yeah. 66 �JJ: I guess what I’m trying to say is what does that mean to you? I mean, Puerto Rican -- I mean, I’m just trying to figure out -- SQ: What does it mean to me? JJ: Because you were born in (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). SQ: Hey, I’m proud. I’m proud. I’m proud of being Puerto Rican. I am proud of being Puerto Rican. And I’m proud of being an American. So, I mean, people -- JJ: So, how can you balance both things? That’s what I’m trying to get at. SQ: How would I balance it? JJ: Yeah. SQ: Well, I mean, [01:29:00] there’s not really much of a difference. We do the things almost the same except we speak it in Spanish and they speak it in English. Because an example -- if I want to make rice -- you can’t tell me an American doesn’t know how to make rice. The only thing is they do it their way and we do it our way. It’s the same thing. They teach their kids probably -- they give them -what -- time out. We just give them, “You’re grounded. Get in the room.” It’s the same exact thing. It’s just -- they would probably think a different culture. But I just think it’s the same. There’s no difference really. We’re all the same. I don’t think there’s anything -- I bet if you asked a Mexican, “What would you think of being an American,” they’d probably say the same exact thing. “We’re all the same.” JJ: But they’re Mexican from Mexico and then you guys are Americans from the United States. [01:30:00] And you’re Puerto Ricans. 67 �SQ: But that doesn’t make a difference. That’s what I’m trying to tell you. We’re all the same. They eat probably the same things we eat. You understand? JJ: We’re all human beings. You’re saying we’re all human beings? SQ: Yeah, we’re all humans. Doesn’t matter -- JJ: Or is that -- am I putting words in your mouth? SQ: No, no, no. You’re not putting words in my mouth. JJ: We’re all human beings. SQ: We’re all the same. We don’t -- it doesn’t really -- JJ: But we are from different countries. SQ: Well, we all have different cultures, all, everybody because whether -- one thing that makes me laugh is -- I’ve heard a lot of people say, “Oh, I’m not Black. I’m Puerto Rican.” What do you think a Puerto Rican is? A Puerto Rican is -- I say it as a joke. I say a Puerto Rican is a mutt. That’s what I say. But I say it fooling around because we’re mixed. We’re half Indian, half what -- Taíno. Right? That would be an Indian. Some of us are dark skin. Some of our light skin. Some of us are blonde. We have different cultures in us. [01:31:00] So, people say, “Oh, I’m not Black.” “Yeah, you are Black. You’re half Black no matter what.” “Oh, I don’t have this color skin.” “Yes, you do because you’re Puerto Rican.” That’s how I see it. JJ: So, if you’re Black, you’re Puerto Rican, you mean? SQ: I see it that way. JJ: Because we come from different cultures. 68 �SQ: We come from different cultures. I would call it hodgepodge of a lot of mixed stuff all stuck in one. JJ: But what are the main cultures that Puerto Ricans come from? SQ: I think it’s -- if I’m not mistaken, Taíno. JJ: Taíno’s one of them. SQ: Right, the Taíno. JJ: Okay. But they didn’t teach that in school in the school year? SQ: Yeah, they did. But you’re asking me -- how many years ago? I don’t remember. (laughter) JJ: I mean, did they say we come from Spain? SQ: I don’t -- if I tell you something, I would be lying to you because -- JJ: Okay, I don’t want you to tell me. SQ: -- I don’t really remember. JJ: I don’t want you to tell me. SQ: Really. But I know -- JJ: But what you’re saying basically is we’re all the same. SQ: We’re all the same, exactly. Because [01:32:00] a dark skinned person or -- I don’t like to say -- an African American, as we should be calling them -- we have African American in us. You understand? JJ: Oh, that’s what I’m saying. We have that in us? SQ: Yes, we do. JJ: But why? Where? Where did we get that from? SQ: Well, I mean, if you look years back, there is the Taínos. They weren’t white. 69 �JJ: No, they were Indian. SQ: Right. And an Indian is -- JJ: So, where’s the African -- SQ: -- dark skin. JJ: -- where does the African come from. SQ: I don’t -- you see -- JJ: I don’t want to give you detention. SQ: You’re putting me on the spot. I don’t really know. But I do know that we do have that in -- JJ: Since I’m putting words in your mouth, I guess we were supposed to be descended from the -- SQ: There you go. JJ: -- African. African, European, Spanish, and Taíno Indians. SQ: Right. There you go. Those are the words that I’m trying to say. JJ: Now I’m putting words in your mouth. SQ: Thank you. JJ: I’m not supposed. [01:33:00] SQ: But that’s what I was trying to get to. I couldn’t get it to -- but -- JJ: I think you got it there. You got it. You got it. SQ: Yes. JJ: So, we have a different culture then? SQ: Yeah, we do. JJ: Okay, alright. 70 �SQ: We do. I mean, we have -- I would say -- like I said, hodgepodge -- JJ: I mean, can you tell me -- SQ: -- a little bit of everybody. JJ: -- could you tell -- coming from the United States here, could you tell that there was a different culture? That’s a -- SQ: Could I tell the difference? JJ: -- loaded question. That’s a loaded question. SQ: Yeah, I could. (laughter) I could tell a difference completely because here, everybody wakes up at six o’clock in the morning. In the United States, not everybody wakes up at six o’clock in the morning. Give me a break. We get up late. I would call us a little lazier. Now, Puerto Ricans are -- get up five o’clock in the morning, six o’clock in the morning. Then you can hear the shovels. You can hear people cutting the grass. You’re like, “It’s so early in the morning.” When I came here, I was like freaked out. I was like, “What is this?” [01:34:00] I didn’t understand. I really didn’t understand. And then, food time is the same hour every day. I don’t know how it is over there. But I know our family wasn’t like that. Everything is completely different. The foods that we eat -- they would -here they would eat vianda, which -- I know my dad ate that, but we never saw it at a thing. We would see it as a delicacy over there, and here, we see it as an everyday thing. So, a lot of different stuff. A lot. JJ: Okay. What -- you would see different things like vianda. But you said we would see it -- when you say “we” are you talking about in the United States or here? [01:35:00] 71 �SQ: No, I’m saying my family. In the States -- when we were living over there, we wouldn’t see that every day. We would see regular American food. We’d have Italian food or hot dogs and hamburgers. Well, we would eat rice, yeah. But we would more eat spaghetti and other kind of food. It's not like that here. If you don’t eat rice, you’re not eating at all. You understand? You have to have rice on your plate because, if not, that’s not a meal. That’s how they see it here. If there’s no rice, no meal. They’ll say, “Oh, you just had a snack.” That’s how I see it. JJ: Over here. SQ: Over here. JJ: But before you said I saw it like if I was an American here. But then, you come over here and you see it as a Puerto Rican. SQ: Right, yeah because I was used to American food. JJ: But you were born there. But you’re living here. Whatever you -- and you say you’re Puerto Rican. So, what are you? [01:36:00] SQ: What am I now? JJ: Yeah. SQ: I still consider myself an American Puerto Rican. JJ: An American Puerto Rican? SQ: That’s how I consider myself still. JJ: That’s what I wanted to ask. SQ: Yeah. My kids -- they know that -- they’ve never gone to the States. But they say, “My mom’s an American Puerto Rican, and I’m Puerto Rican.” 72 �JJ: Which comes first? SQ: Which comes first? JJ: A loaded question. For you. I’m just trying to -- SQ: Wow. Which would come first for me? Well, I do still consider myself an American, I do because -- I don’t know -- I guess just the lifestyle over there is completely different, which I do like. And I would consider myself afterwards Puerto Rican. JJ: Okay. So, American first and then Puerto Rican? SQ: Right. That’s how I see myself. Not everybody does. But that’s how I see myself. I’m an American Puerto Rican. JJ: Okay. That’s fine. SQ: But there’s no difference because -- JJ: No, there is no difference. SQ: -- I’m still [01:37:00] Puerto Rican. Trust me. I’m not getting rid of my Puerto Rican because I’m proud of who I am. You understand? I’m proud of being a Puerto Rican, and I’m also proud of being an American Puerto Rican. Don’t get me wrong on that one. JJ: So, you said Puerto Rican twice. So, that’s good. (laughter) SQ: Well -- JJ: Either way is good. Either way is good. SQ: Right. JJ: This is an oral history. It’s about you. So, either way is good. I think you’re looking at it and saying, “Well, I don’t know what Tío wants me to say.” (laughter) 73 �SQ: No, no, no, no. That’s how I feel. I’m saying what I feel. JJ: Alright, good. Alright. That’s good. Now, we can do -- before we go into -- I want to look at some of the creative stuff that you do. But are there any other questions we should -- anything else that we should add to this before we get into that. SQ: I don’t know. You ask me. You ask me, and I’ll tell you. JJ: Okay. But I don’t -- I just want to know like what -- I’m asking you some things that I think I should ask you. But is there anything [01:38:00] that I forgot? SQ: No, not that I know of. JJ: We’re both (inaudible) as we know. SQ: Probably. JJ: Okay. Let me turn this off, and then, we’ll turn it back on. (break in audio) JJ: Okay because I’ve only got like five minutes on this camera. SQ: I made that little stool. It used to be a telephone table where you put your telephone at. I took off all the top part and I just -- JJ: Where’d you get a telephone table at? SQ: I found it in the garbage. (laughs) JJ: Oh, okay. So, you get your raw materials free. SQ: Probably do. JJ: What about these things? Did you make any of these? SQ: No, I didn’t make none of that. JJ: Okay, alright. Let me go over here. How about those things over there? 74 �SQ: No, that’s just recycled stuff. I have -- I think the Coke full of top things from the Coke, beer, whatever. You can get it. [01:40:00] I put it all in there. JJ: You just put in the vase. SQ: Right. And then, I have -- the other one that has red in it. Those are seeds. JJ: Those are seeds from -- what kind of seeds? SQ: Those are camándula. And the other one -- it’s just Dorito bags clipped up. I have all different kind of baggies in there. JJ: And you put them in the bowl there? SQ: Yeah, and I made confetti. JJ: That took a long time to cut those up though. SQ: Yeah, I put my daughter, to relax her, down so she can sit and calm herself down to cut paper. And that usually works with kids. Give them a piece of paper and scissors and they’re happy. Then this table that I have here. That used to be a dining room table. JJ: Okay, there we go. SQ: So, I just had my dad -- JJ: Okay. That was a dining room table? SQ: Yes. I had my dad cut it right in half. So, I made two tables. JJ: Okay. The other one’s on the other side over there. SQ: Right. JJ: And that’s that other -- okay. SQ: And where my [01:41:00] television is at -- that used to be a -- it would be -- JJ: The table you mean? 75 �SQ: Yeah, that table. That was something else. I don’t know really -- JJ: But I mean, where did you get that at? SQ: Well, it was at Mom’s house. And it was all old fashioned stuff. So, I just drew up the design I wanted. And I gave all the pieces to a neighbor, and he did that for me. JJ: Okay, he painted it and stuff. SQ: Yeah, I painted it. I sanded it down. JJ: Oh, you painted it and sanded it? SQ: Yeah, I painted it and I sanded it down. Okay. What’s on the top -- that used to be from a bed. Took the iron work off the bed. That used to be mine and my sister’s bed when we were living with my mom. It broke. So, I wanted still a piece of the bed. I’ve carried that with me for years. JJ: Okay. What about the wall? SQ: I did the wall. JJ: Okay. You’re talking about this wall right here? [01:42:00] SQ: Yeah, that took me a week. I took a plate with a design and I just drew it over and over. JJ: Individually? SQ: Yes. JJ: One by one? SQ: One by one. It took me a week or do that all by myself. JJ: It’s all on one -- SQ: I drew it first, and then, I painted it on. 76 �JJ: Okay. All on one side. Okay. We want to go -- okay. SQ: That table, I have -- JJ: This table? SQ: -- my jewelry that’s there with the seeds. That to make -- JJ: Oh, this jewelry right here? SQ: Yes. To make that -- this one that’s here -- to make this only, it can take me up to two weeks. By the time I look for the seeds -- I don’t at all do anything to them. I don’t paint them. I don’t do nothing. JJ: Those are seeds? SQ: These are seeds. [01:43:00] JJ: Oh, okay. SQ: It takes me weeks. So, by the time I clean them out, get the little bugs and everything in it, and I dip it in some certain varnish stuff so all the insects and the goop that’s on the inside comes all out. So, it takes a while to do. JJ: But all the different -- you got gray in there. Do you color them? SQ: No, I don’t do nothing to them. This is the way it is. JJ: Oh, those are the colors right here? SQ: Yes. The seed -- that’s the way it is. That’s it. JJ: The seeds of what tree? Do you know it? SQ: I don’t know the name. And then, this here -- this also -- this is just recycled. I made this out of old -- JJ: Milk things? SQ: Yeah. The little lids from the milk. 77 �JJ: From the lid, the milk lids? SQ: Yeah, that’s what I did. I don’t want to go into any more details because that’s my secret. (laughs) JJ: Okay. SQ: And then, here is another bracelet with bamboo, which I get the bamboo. [01:44:00] JJ: You got the bamboo from the trees here. SQ: I got the bamboo from the trees, which you’re only allowed to cut certain ones, because if you cut the wrong ones -- JJ: The city will get you? SQ: Yeah. (laughs) It’s not a pretty picture. So, they let you get the ones that are fallen down. JJ: You’ve got a bracelet on your hand. Are you (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? SQ: I made this too, myself. Iron, an iron bracelet. I made it. I only make one of a kind. I never make two of the same because it’s never going to be the same. I make these also. It’s also out of metal. It’s a little hard to -- let’s see. These are one of a kind. And no bead, no nothing. Nobody else would have the same bracelet. If they do want it, it would be impossible for me to match it. Impossible. JJ: Because those are what -- rocks? SQ: These are long rods, and I [01:45:00] shape them myself. JJ: Rocks? SQ: They’re rods. They’re long rods. JJ: Rods. Okay, and you shape them. 78 �SQ: And I shape it myself. JJ: What are those little -- SQ: These are glass beads. JJ: You just bought those. SQ: Just glass beads, random glass beads. You can get plastic, whatever you want to put it in. JJ: This is an arts and crafts. SQ: Right. JJ: Okay. SQ: You see, it’s the same one except they’re all different. Like I said, there’s never two of the same. JJ: And those you put -- you made out of -- is that woodwork or what? You just got those? SQ: These? JJ: No where the candles are. SQ: No, actually these were a gift. I did end up -- JJ: Okay, that’s a nice picture on the wall too. What’s that -- is that what they call it -[flamboyant?] or whatever or no? SQ: No, that’s a [Amarilla?]. JJ: Okay. SQ: Those are also -- I think you can also find those flowers in Hawaii if I’m not mistaken. JJ: Oh, okay, okay. Alright. [01:46:00] 79 �SQ: (inaudible) JJ: Where? By the -- SQ: In the (inaudible). JJ: At the (inaudible) okay. So, this is going to be a window, right? You made that? SQ: No, I didn’t make that. JJ: One’s over by the door. SQ: The doors? JJ: The doors, yeah, because you said you were into doors. Okay. Now, get back here for that. So, that’s the door. Where did you get that door? SQ: Well, actually, that’s a lot of pieces of wood all put together. They snap on like if it was the floor, the wooden floors. And I had Dad snap them on all together. So, I sanded it down, I painted it, and I made it look like a door. So, I put all these different little doorknobs on them. They’re all [01:47:00] vintage and I found them in different places. But I’ve been asked so many times, “Are you selling those doorknobs?” And the one at the top here, it has the mosaic. Those are glass. The glass, I found on the beach. And everything else inside -- what I did was -- JJ: And that’s a door too? SQ: Yeah, it’s a door. That was my mother’s kitchen cabinet door. But since that’s good wood, I didn’t want to get rid of it. I was like, “Wow, good wood. I know I can use it for something.” So, what I did was I put little hearts and little knickknacks inside of it as a memory for my kids. Each one has something about my children. And then, the one on the top here where the mirror is at, that used to be my mother in law’s. It was blue and white. And I [01:48:00] fought over the 80 �mirror because (laughs) I wanted it. And when I finished, this is what I got. Good wood and a nice door. JJ: And let me see. What about the boat? SQ: Those are my son’s boats. JJ: Those are your son’s? He made them? SQ: No. JJ: Oh, he didn’t? Okay. SQ: He didn’t make those. Some guy made them. I don’t (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). Those used to be my dad’s door from the house door. JJ: Which one? SQ: That wood -- those wooden things around there. JJ: So, you put -- END OF VIDEO FILE 81 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b9b3978dcb9acc9c800a8322ae2bef99.mp4 6d2a8ef1c698b4468192b832617543d9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Sandra Quiles vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Sandra Quiles, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 11/21/2012 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Quiles_Sandra Title A name given to the resource Sandra Quiles video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Quiles, Sandra Description An account of the resource Oral history of Sandra Quiles, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 11/21/2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-11-21 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/56f730abfd5b88c3b4db10130861abcc.pdf 8e7bf31bb6968a3e1b30ddc900da1583 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: John “Oppress” Preston Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/27/2012 Biography and Description John “Oppress” Preston was a leading member of the Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party (BPP). His role within the party was to set up and distribute the BPP newspaper throughout the state of Illinois. Though the BPP started in Oakland, California in 1966, it was not until April 25, 1967 that they published their first official newspaper. By 1969 the newspaper had a nationwide distribution of about 250,000 copies. In Illinois, distribution climbed up to about 80,000 copies.Mr. Preston describes what a major operation it was to set up and distribute the paper. Many times the newspaper was used as part of Political Education or “P.E.” classes. It was automatically given to new members to sell. The Black Panthers were about being out and active in the community as well as educating the People. The office was primarily used as a place to stop over to eat with others from the community or to report in; very quickly members were back on the streets selling papers and talking with the People.The BPP Newspaper was used as a tool for discussion on the many corners where it was sold. In this way it also provided visibility, as individuals would wave or drive by honking their horns. The newspaper also provided guidance to the Young Lords and to the many other organizations that were connected in one way or the other to the Black Panthers. The Young Lords began to put out their own bilingual newspaper which was then distributed in Latino areas along with several other organizations. Although it was improving, it still lacked in the sophistication of the work done by Mr. Preston. He delivered the �newspaper to the various branches and chapters in Illinois cities; they, in turn, would distribute it to their assigned geographical area. There was an accounting for each and every newspaper because the paper also provided income for the BPP chapters. The task appeared simple and mundane but �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, so, after the open housing movement, what happened after that with you? Basically, you were 11 years old-JOHN PRESTON: Basically, I was 11 or 12 years old, in grammar school, going to school, growing up in Chicago. In the Black community in Chicago. And... JJ: So what was that like? I mean, with the growing up in Chicago, that was -- JP: Well, growing up poor in Chicago was growing up poor in Chicago. But you didn’t realize you were poor, you know? You had jobs, there was ways to go out and go to school and earn money, and contribute, because -- JJ: What kind of jobs? I mean, what kind of... JP: We all had paper routes, and milk routes, and jobs of that sort. There were a myriad of jobs that you could do, deliver groceries, working in the neighborhood grocery stores, [00:01:00] to earn money, working after school to earn money. I went to Catholic school, I went to Our Lady of Sorrows Catholic School on the west side. I worked in the lunchroom, they helped pay my tuition to attend. My mom paid my tuition, my mom was a single mother. She -- JJ: She was a single mother? How many siblings? JP: And I had five other siblings, and I was next to the youngest of six kids. So everybody had to do their fair share. You know. I grew up in public housing during this time. JJ: Where was this at? 1 �JP: This was Rockwell Gardens, located on the west side of Chicago, so. And my mom grew up, and we were able to live. So we were poor, we didn’t have a lot of things that we should’ve had, but we were happy. We were a happy family, so. So that’s how that went. [00:02:00] So -- JJ: So you were happy, then mentioned you played a lot, I mean, what kinda games did you play? JP: Well, I played organized football at school, and played games, and rec league games, and rode my bike around the neighborhood, and just did the normal things that kids at that time did, you know. Played games, hide and go seek, whatever. So yeah, so it was that. But it was also a very, very volatile time, socially. And breaking down the barriers of discrimination. And it was coming to the height of the Vietnam War. So there were a lot of things that socially, I was exposed to. And you could -- there was a lot of racial tension, as well. JJ: In the west side, or...? JP: Yeah. All over the city. Chicago [00:03:00] was -- and you could feel the tension, you could -- you knew the tension was there, in the city at that time. There were certain neighborhoods -- JJ: You’re talking about in the ’60s? JP: In the ’60s, that’s right. JJ: In the early ’60s. And you were growing up -- JP: In the ’60s, yeah, in the ’60s, all the way in... And in some instances, the ’70s. Okay, but definitely in the ’60s, there were certain -- JJ: And you said certain neighborhoods [where you?] -- 2 �JP: In certain areas, certain neighborhoods, Blacks could not go. JJ: Like, what area? JP: South, southwest, Gage Park, Marquette Park, Cicero, which is an adjoining suburb of Chicago. Blacks were not allowed there, I can remember, 1965 or ’66, a Black man was out in Cicero looking for a job and got beat to death with a baseball bat. By three teenagers. In Cicero. That’s all he was doing, was looking for work. JJ: Was this not a gang thing, or...? JP: It was not a gang thing, it was a [00:04:00] racial thing. It was a racial thing. JJ: What’s the difference? I mean, I don’t... JP: Of course. What the difference is, if there’s a gang, you know, you’re fighting for turf, people are representing, and then there’s a gang member representing. When it was a racial thing, it’s just because of the color of your skin, that someone attacked you of the opposite race. And this is the climate that existed. It was clearly a Black-white divide in the city of Chicago at that time. All right? You -- JJ: There was a gang (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: No, it was not a gang that did it. It was three white youths, that lived in Cicero, that saw this Black man looking for a job, and they beat him to death with a baseball bat. Simple. (laughs) JJ: Very simple, it was more of a (inaudible). But were white gangs doing the same thing, or [00:05:00] no? At that time? 3 �JP: White people were doing the same things. Now, they might’ve been white vigilante groups that perpetuated it at that time, yes. I mean, you had, you know, the Nazis in Gage Park, and you had other white groups, as well as Klan members, and you had white motorcycle clubs and things like that, and whose primary interest was that they were primarily white gangs representing white representation, or white people that formed other type of groups. But it was all done along the lines of race, you had certain areas Blacks could not go, certain clubs, certain organizations Blacks could not be members of, simply because you were Black. Okay? So, a lot of those barriers existed at that time. For Blacks and for other people of color. And it was the norm. [00:06:00] It was the norm. JJ: Why do you think it was the norm at that time? And what was the city like? Was it diverse, or...? JP: No, the city -- well, the city has always... You’ve always had your people that were liberal-minded enough to fight against the racism. And Chicago has always been a diverse city, but it’s also been a very segregated city. You know. Where you could go in one area in Chicago and it was all white, you could go in another area where it was all Latino, you could go in another area where it was a allBlack concentration, and people knew it. And that’s how people navigated the waters in the city of Chicago at that time. And it was, moreso now. That’s not to say that even in 2012, that discrimination doesn’t exist in Chicago, which it still does. But it was more prevalent, [00:07:00] it was much more pervasive, and it was tolerated and accepted. And you did have some liberal parts to the city, such as, like, Lincoln Park, Old Town, these areas where you had a diverse 4 �cross-section of people there. Or you had other melting pots during that time, like Uptown, where you had your poor whites, your poor Native Americans, your poor Latinos, and also Blacks. So you had certain areas of the city that were considered melting pots, and people immigrated from other countries into those areas of the city. But they were still polarized nonetheless. So the polarization still existed. Moreso in Chicago, where you could actually see that, in terms of police brutality that existed, [00:08:00] it was at a very, very high climate at that time. And it was accepted as the norm. JJ: Well, why was it more at a high climate at that time than today? JP: Well, that was just the climate of the country. I mean, the climate of the whole country was that we were a country that there was racial discrimination that existed throughout the whole country. And Chicago was just one aspect of -- JJ: The police in Chicago, was that racial? Or was that just... JP: It was moreso racial, of course it was. JJ: So that means that there were not enough African American police, and...? JP: There was very few African American police. JJ: And that, in the ’60s? JP: Yes. Very few African American police, yes, you did have some African American policemen, you’ve always had African American police. And they were always concentrated to patrol African American communities, and they were used there as enforcers, rather than protectors, of the community. [00:09:00] To enforce and serve the interests of the white businessman and the white establishment. Those were your Black policemen. At that time, they were 5 �considered Uncle Toms. So you had -- that was the Uncle Tom era of racism, of the people, where, if they were Black, they had a agenda to serve a certain purpose. At that time. JJ: Okay. So you’re saying Uncle Tom meant that they were not serving the interests of the... JP: Of their community. JJ: The Black community, their community. JP: Right. JJ: Or Latino community (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: (inaudible) Right. I mean, you know, Native Americans could all call them apples. (laughs) You know. We called them Oreo cookies, Uncle Toms, or whatever. So that is what the climate of the city was at that time, and it’s taken on a different dynamic today. But... JJ: [00:10:00] Now, there were some gangs on the west side, though, right? At that time, or... JP: There’ve always been gangs. JJ: Wasn’t there the Vice Lords, or something (inaudible) JP: They’re... JJ: How did that play in-- ’Cause, I mean, I know you f-- If it was a segregated area, I know you felt more comfortable if you’re in the west side, in your community. But then you have to deal with other situations, too. 6 �JP: Well, within the dynamic of the Black community, yes, you’ve always had gangs. Gangs have existed as far back as we can remember. There was an established order. Gangs were organized, at first, to protect communities. JJ: To the west side, what gangs were in the west side? JP: At that time, you had... You had the Vice Lords, Egyptian Cobras, Roman Saints... [00:11:00] In the Latino areas, you had the Harrison Gents. (laughs) So, those are the few that come to mind immediately. JJ: Okay. And, were they problematic in the community, or they were just part of life, or I mean, how (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: Well, they were problematic, you know, but gangs fought against gangs, and if you chose to be in a gang, it was by choice and not by force. You know. Gangs didn’t go out and openly recruit you, when you were a certain age, to become a part of this gang, that you had to be a part of this gang. There weren’t the barriers that existed, today, as we know it, that, if you are a part of this gang, you can’t go in this area of the Black community, or you can’t go in that area of the Black community. I never experienced that as a youth growing up. In Chicago. JJ: But it existed? But it existed. JP: It existed. [00:12:00] Yes, you did have gangs and you did have crime. But (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JJ: [But?], I mean, today, there’s a recruitment. At that time, they didn’t have that? JP: Well, sometimes they did. They had recruitment, sometimes it’s not as voluntary, so it’s up to the individual, if he really wants to be a part of the gang. 7 �JJ: Okay. So, why did you not become part of the gang, I mean, was it not that prevalent in the west side? JP: No, I didn’t see a need to be a part of a gang. JJ: Okay, but why? Why? JP: Why? Because I didn’t see a need to be a part of any type of gang that had a certain set of values that weren’t consistent with mine, because I didn’t see a need to do that. A lot of the gang members were, people that were so-called gang members, were my neighbors. I knew them. I grew up with them. [00:13:00] So, it wasn’t that I had to be a part of that. I had friends, and I had friends that chose to be in gangs, and that was their choice. I didn’t see it that way, so I didn’t s-- I was never -- JJ: So, what were your set of values? I mean, what were some of the things -- JP: Well, some of the things that I wanted to do, I saw how my mother was subjected to racism. And discrimination. JJ: What do you mean? JP: A Black woman on a job, she worked for the United States government at that time. JJ: What did she do? JP: She was a stenographer. And she worked at a government installation, and she was very, very much discriminated against. One, because she was a woman, and -- well, one, because she was Black, two, because she was a woman. [00:14:00] And even though she was qualified to do a better job, she was always overlooked for promotions by her white counterparts that had less skills and less 8 �abilities, but yet got the better-paying jobs. And this is something that I noticed early on, you know. I noticed that the word, as they call it now, the N-word, but, clearly spoken, the word, “nigga,” was thrown around. We still had the problems of people sitting at the back of the bus, and you didn’t have to sit at the back of the bus, but of course, there was still some racism involved in, when you did get on the bus. You know? So all of those things, all of those factors, you were able to see, you were able to feel. So those were the things that [00:15:00] I had a passion to change. You know. JJ: So when you -- you’re saying that when you got on the bus, there was still some racism -- JP: Well, you -- JJ: -- but it wasn’t like in the South, where they said, “You -- JP: Exactly. JJ: -- have to sit in the back,” you just -- JP: Right. JJ: -- kind of felt it, or...? JP: Yes. You get it, you could always feel a certain, you know, degree of racism. You could always feel -- basically, racism was prevalent, it was overtly prevalent in all of the institutions that existed in America at that time. JJ: But specifically the west side of Chicago... JP: Not just the west side of Chicago. West side of Chicago was a microcosm of what existed throughout the whole United States, you know. JJ: Okay, okay, so, your mother was being discriminated. 9 �JP: You felt the discrimination (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JJ: And you felt anger towards that, or? JP: I felt resentment towards that -- JJ: Resentment? JP: Yes I did, yes. And I felt a need to [00:16:00] change that. To want to change that, to fight against that. And so, you know, knowing about -- hearing about the Civil Rights Movement, knowing about the atrocities that were being inflicted against Black people, assassinations on our leaders, Medgar Evers... JJ: Were you hearing that in the news, or was that being taught in the schools, too? JP: It was on the news, but it was also discussed in the school that I attended. You know. JJ: What school was that? JP: Our Lady of Sorrows. JJ: Our Lady of Sorrows. JP: Yes, grammar school. So, all those things, we were able to discuss. So there were a lot of different factors [00:17:00] there, to how that was received, because we were taught that it was wrong, and that we had a responsibility to go out and do something about it. JJ: Was Father Clements from Our Lady of Sorrows? JP: No, he wasn’t. JJ: Oh, no he wasn’t, okay. JP: No, Father Clements was from Holy Angels. JJ: Holy Angels, okay, that’s correct. 10 �JP: On the south side. JJ: That’s correct, that’s correct. That’s right. JP: But there were priests, and nuns at the school at that time, that were actively involved in the movements as well. To fight against discrimination and racism. And so, because of that, I felt a need to support that as well. So... JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: So, in being a part of that school at that time, we were taught to stand up for what you [00:18:00] believed in. And that’s what we did. That’s what I did. JJ: Okay, so actually, so, Our Lady of Sorrows was like an activist school during that time? During -- JP: Well, it was not -- I wouldn’t call it an activist school, I would say it was a progressive school. But not an activist school, it was progressive. It taught us how to think and not what to think. And that we were able to reason and infer our own conclusions based on information that we received. And we had these discussions. JJ: Okay. So then, what grade was that, what grade were you in? JP: Seventh, eighth grade. JJ: Seventh and eighth grade? JP: Yeah. JJ: So now you’re going into high school, or...? JP: Yeah, I went to Providence St. Mel High School. JJ: Providence St. Mel, where is that located? JP: It’s located at Central Park and Monroe in the west side of Chicago. 11 �JJ: (inaudible) JP: So I attended Providence St. Mel High School. I went there from [00:19:00] 1968 to 1971. (inaudible) JJ: So the west side then was a stable neighborhood, it didn’t really move that much, right? Am I correct, or...? JP: How do you mean when you say stable? JJ: Well, I mean it didn’t move. Like, say, Lincoln Park was changing from Polish, Italian, and German, to Puerto Rican. JP: Well, I wouldn’t say that, because, coming up as a kid, when we first moved into our neighborhood, there were whites there. And Latinos, and Puerto Ricans. And that was in 1959 and 1960. By 1969, all those people were gone. JJ: Actually, Madison was -- that didn’t have a Puerto Rican area, around Madison? JP: Around California, around Madison... JJ: Oh yeah, there was a Puerto Rican (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: And then [00:20:00] around Harrison and Western, around Roosevelt, and you -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: And you had Italians. So you saw the -- yeah, so the neighborhoods were changing at that time. But I can remember -- JJ: Did that create any friction at all, or...? JP: Well, that was -- I mean, everybody coexist. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: But, you know, you went to school with pe-- I know I went to school with whites, I went to school with Latinos, I went to school with Blacks, you know. But it 12 �became predominantly Black as time went on. Of course, when I came there in 1960, in first grade, there were more whites, but then, by 1967 or ’68 there were still whites there, but then, with the assassination of Dr. King, then you really saw the white exodus go, but at first it was gradual. And so, yeah, so the neighborhood was changing, and the whole dynamic of the neighborhood was changing. JJ: It was a natural change, not a [00:21:00] pushed change. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) urban renewal or something (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: Well, yes, urban renewal was prevalent. They were pushing urban renewal. But, at that time, you had the white flight to the suburbs. JJ: What do you mean? Can you describe that? JP: Why the white flight exists, it is that they -- with the racial barriers breaking down, where now, Black people can come and rent here. You know. There was a time where, if you wanted to go rent downtown or in the north shore, Lincoln Park, something like that, there were certain buildings that you couldn’t rent, that they would give you some excuse on why you couldn’t rent the apartment if you were Black. You know? Those barriers were gradually broken down, through laws, and mandates, and changes, and city ordinances. From that, you had the white people that said, “Well, I’m not gonna live next to Black people, [00:22:00] I’m not gonna live next to these people.” So you had the white flight to the suburbs. And then therefore, houses were so (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JJ: And what year was this? 13 �JP: This was all during the ’60s. All this was done in the ’60s. All this was done in the ’60s. JJ: The white flight to the suburbs, and... JP: Yeah, so you had your white flight to the suburbs, and you had those things that existed at that time. And it was pretty interesting, I would say. JJ: So what do we have to do, then? I mean, now we have -- Lincoln Park is mostly white, right? Is it? JP: Yeah, there was always a changing urban dynamic. And so, as, one situation, where one area became developed, and it became open to a certain class of people that could afford to move [00:23:00] there, then of course other areas were abandoned. And then of course developers would come in, and redevelop that land, and make it appealing to people of another economic level. Well, today it’s still the same process. It’s just not called racism, but there are economic development. You call them poor, moderate-income housing, to where developers come in and they create these high-rises, with very, very high rents, that only certain income levels can afford to move in there. And therefore, the people that were living there, you know, your poor working-class people, can’t afford that area, and so they’re forced out. So they’re forced into areas. So you have the same dynamic today, to where most people, [00:24:00] even within the subsidized housing movement, high-rises have been completely -- communities have been completely displaced. Such as Robert Taylor Homes, Stateway Gardens, Cabrini-Green. All these became communities that existed for 30, 40, 50 years. 14 �JJ: So these communities existed 30, 40, 50 years, and they no longer exist? JP: They no longer exist. So these people were displaced. So where were they displaced to? They were displaced to the suburbs. So those people that -- those whites that moved out of suburbs are now moving back into the city, into these elegant high-rise apartments, now, into all these new developments. So it’s been made attractive for them to come back into the city, and now those Blacks that have been displaced have moved to the suburbs. And that’s what’s going on today. JJ: And why was this -- I mean, you had aldermen that were Black in the city [00:25:00] council, Black aldermen. JP: Yes. JJ: You had Latino aldermen, also. JP: Yes. JJ: And progressive aldermen. I mean, how is this able to happen, that...? JP: How was it able to happen, it was... JJ: Yeah, (inaudible) displace complete neighborhoods. JP: It was able to happen -- the first mayor Daley, Richard J. Daley, called it urban renewal. Okay? Richard M. Daley called it urban development. (laughs) Or regentrification. (laughs) So, when you deal with re-gentrification, versus urban renewal of the ’60s, it’s the same thing. And so, therefore, and now they mask it with mixed-income communities. So you have people that have condos here, and you have low-income [00:26:00] subsidized housing there, and then you also have affordable housing right there, so everybody can live together under the 15 �guise of equality. But it’s still the same thing. All right? Because those subsidized units, in a new development, eventually will be phased out. You know? So, within the process of what goes on. So those subsidized units, eventually, that unit where those subsidized families are, which they are, of course, a minority, for one reason or another will be phased out, and become a moderate or a high-income community. At some point. JJ: So what you’re saying is that even the subsidized units, today, that were existing, even they were replaced? JP: Yes. JJ: So the few subsidized units that they did put there, [00:27:00] for media or whatever (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: Eventually will be gone. JJ: Will be gone. JP: Yes. Eventually will be gone. So it’s basically a cosmetic, it’s a Band-Aid, a cosmetic fix, or a solution. So on the surface it looks good, that there is the equality, but eventually -- and even in communities on the west side, in Uptown, you have that problem, because there were a lot of community area-- high-rises in Uptown that were supposed to be for subsidized housing, and they have been phased out into so-called cooperatives. Or either new developments have come in, and all those units are market-value rent. So the process is on, to phase out and move these people out of those areas, [00:28:00] where you have lowincome, moderate-income housing, and they really want to move the working poor out of those areas in order for the developers to come in and bring in 16 �market-value rates, and to build new communities. To accommodate those people that are moving from the suburbs back into the city. So, there’s a theory, that, probably, in the next 15 years, if you’re not at an income level of 50 to 60,000 dollars, you won’t be able to live in the city of Chicago. You know. Not sustain yourself in the city of Chicago. I mean, you know, and then that’s just reality, that’s just life, and that was the ground rule that, I feel, that Richard M. Daley laid down when he left office. If you’re gonna live in Chicago, it’s gonna cost you money. JJ: [00:29:00] Okay, so this came not only with Richard M. Daley, but it came with Richard J. Daley -- JP: As well. JJ: -- his father. JP: Yes. JJ: So, do you think this was a long-ranged plan, or... (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: Well, no, I think... I believe that Richard M. Daley’s agenda was consistent with his father’s agenda. And he carried out the vision of his father, he just did it a different kind of way. And that he appeased and catered to big business. JJ: But he was -- wasn’t he able to get some of the progressive people to support him for a while? JP: Well, he... JJ: (inaudible) 17 �JP: I mean, he hasn’t -- it seems as if he had the progressive support, but what it in fact came to is that his power base grew enough, to where that they had to be [00:30:00] co-opted into his agenda in order for them to get whatever else that they needed to get passed. JJ: Can you explain what you mean (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: I’m saying that it became tit-for-tat, or, you know, if we want this over here, then you gotta vote for this over here. You know. And that’s the only way you’re gonna get that. And a lot of things, it was arm-twisting politics -- JJ: And can you give an example? JP: Well, let’s see... Let’s take Millennium Park, for instance. JJ: Downtown, right? JP: That downtown, millions of dollars spent on a park. Pritzker Pavilion, all of this. Basically caters to the rich. Okay? In order to get that passed, you needed city [00:31:00] council approval. In some cases, it was passed unanimously. And in order for that to be passed, and it was, but that passed, in order for this alderman in this Black ward to get funding for programs or other things, that he had to vote on this. You know. So, that’s what it was. So, basically the city council became a rubber stamp for Daley. And they didn’t -- even in the days when Harold Washington, a lot of the aldermen that were elected and were [inaudible] from Harold Washington wound up having to compromise, and co-op, in order to get other things done in terms of development, affordable housing, and that. And they had to really, really fight tooth and nail in order to get it [00:32:00] done. You know? Like, you would take -- in Uptown, they had the Wilson Yards 18 �development. The Wilson Yards took 10 years to get passed. And it dealt with a senior high-rise and a low and moderate-income housing. It was 150 units of low and moderate-income housing, 200 units of senior housing. But at the same time, in order for that to go over, they had to agree to put a Target there. And Target served for economic development. But also, a Target is a big box store that has no health insurance for its employees, pay them -- they don’t give ’em a 40-hour week, they don’t give ’em, and they pay them 50, 60 cent over minimum wage. So you have the contradiction that existed. So, [00:33:00] yes, in order for you to get this, you have to vote for that, in the guise of economic development. So then you still have the exploitation that exists, with Target. These people have no health benefits, they have no health insurance. They don’t even get a full 40-hour week, and yet they’re paid 50 cent, 60 cent above minimum wage. JJ: So these companies came in, and they were working with the city... JP: Exactly. JJ: But the city’s plan was what? They wanted to up the blighted areas, though, right? JP: Well, that’s -- JJ: That was, in other words, their plan, their agenda. JP: Well, the city had their plans, and they had the -- and they said that they’re doing this under the guise of cleaning up the blighted areas, and really what they’re doing is moving people out, in order to accommodate people of a certain income level. So, all right, so we’ll say, “Okay, this can stay. There’s 200 uni--” 19 �JJ: So what did the city [00:34:00] get out of that? I mean, what -- JP: Well, the city, what the city gets is a level of people that are coming into the city, that, basically, if you’re not making 50 or 60,000 dollars then you’re not gonna be able to live there, and that’s what they’re developing. Okay? So the city is forcing people out (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) these upper-income people. JP: And getting the upper-income people. JJ: (inaudible) And then, by the same token, they’re raising the tax base, or something. JP: Exactly, the tax base. JJ: You gotta answer the phone? JP: No, go ahead, I just -- it’s six o’clock, I gotta get (inaudible) JJ: Oh, is it 6:00? Okay. JP: Yeah, it’s 6:00. JJ: Okay, well let’s get to -- how did you get involved with the Black Panther Party? JP: I got involved with the Black Panther Party -- ironically, I lived in Rockwell Gardens, like I said, and that was in -- [00:35:00] my family moved in Rockwell Gardens in, like, 1964. 1968, Martin Luther King was assassinated in Memphis. That had a great effect on me, had a great effect on my life. And... JJ: You mean personally, you felt -- JP: Personally, personally. To me. JJ: How did you feel? I mean, can you describe? 20 �JP: Well, I felt a great loss, and I felt something had to be done about that. And I knew that Martin Luther King was murdered because he was fighting for what was right. Okay? He was fighting for the rights of people all over the country. And for him to be assassinated the way he was assassinated and murdered, something had to be done. So, I felt a great loss at that age. I had heard about the Black Panther Party, for self-defense out in Oakland, California, in 1967. [00:36:00] ’68. And, it appealed to me, because Stokely Carmichael appealed to me. Malcolm X appealed to me. But I -- JJ: These were pretty militant people (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: They were outspoken. I wouldn’t say that they were militant, because they practiced self-defense. They had a line of demarcation. So these were men that stood up for their rights. The difference between them and Dr. King was, was that Dr. King preached nonviolence, and that the road to social justice was through nonviolence. Malcolm and Stokely and other leaders felt that the road to self-determination and Black liberation was through [00:37:00] fighting for it, and fighting for your rights, the same way this country was built. The same (laughs) way. So we have to look at that, so there’s a whole ’nother dichotomy that exists within that. And, so I was pretty much shaken by that. And in November 1968, there were -- in 1968, you had the Democratic National Convention here in Chicago, and you saw people getting beat, and you saw a lot of things going on right on TV in front of your eyes. And so you saw police brutality, you saw the rac-- you saw the fascism that existed that Mayor Daley perpetuated. Mayor 21 �Daley also, when Dr. King was murdered, put out the shoot-to-kill order. To rioters. JJ: What was that about? What was that? JP: Pardon me? JJ: What was the shoot-to-kill order? JP: [00:38:00] The shoot-to-kill order was that, Daley said, “Shoot to kill anybody that was seen looting the stores,” because when Dr. Martin Luther King was assassinated, riots broke out all over the country. And in Chicago as well. So you had -- JJ: On the west side? JP: On the west side, on the south side. JJ: On the south side. JP: On the west end, south sides of the city. JJ: (inaudible) in Humboldt Park also. JP: And Humboldt Park, right. So you saw this racism, you saw these things that occurred. And Daley put out a shoot-to-kill order for looters. Shoot to kill ’em. So he put property over life. You know? Because he knew who was out there doing the looting and why they were doing the looting. That’s when he called in the national guards. So you saw all of this. You saw all of this in the city before ya eyes. You know. So I’m a thirteen-year-old kid at that time, I’m seeing this. By the fall of [00:39:00] 1968 -- Martin Luther King was murdered in April 1968. By November, and then in the summer, the Democratic National Convention, Bobby Kennedy was murdered. You had the Democratic National Convention 22 �that was held here in Chicago. You saw what Daley did with that. And later on, the Black Panther Party opened up an office, less than a half a mile from my house. And I went into the office one time, and I heard some speakers, and got some political information, and I was compelled to become a member. And subsequently, I did become a member, in November 1968. I was a freshman in high school, and I joined the Black Panther Party at that time. JJ: And, what was your job? I mean (inaudible) JP: Well, initially, [00:40:00] at that time you had to go through training and political orientation. And that’s what I did, and then -- JJ: What kind of training, what do you mean? JP: Well, you had to go through political education classes, political orientation classes. You had to learn the party’s principles, you had to learn the party’s ideology, you had to learn the party’s doctrine. You had to learn the party’s philosophy. We had a 10-point program and a platforming program, which everybody had to learn. We had 26 rules, 3 main rules of discipline. 8 points of attention. All these things that you learn during your six weeks of political orientation, till you become an active member of the party. So, when I -- JJ: Was it six weeks, once a week, or six weeks every day, or...? JP: It was six weeks, three times a week. JJ: Three times a week. JP: Yeah. But during that time, you would go out and sell papers. You would go out in [00:41:00] your particular area where you lived at, and talk with people in your community, talk with your peers about the Black Panther Party, about the Black 23 �Liberation Movement, and why people should become active in that. We also started breakfast for children programs, we were required to be at the breakfast for children program to serve kids. And so these are the programs that, as becoming a member of the Black Panther Party, that we implemented, that were implemented. As a matter of fact, right here where we’re sitting now, was our first breakfast for children program. One of our first breakfast for children programs. JJ: What street are we on? JP: We on Pulaski Road, 15th and Pulaski Road. And this is called the Better Boys Foundation. And we had one of our first breakfast for children programs right here, at this location. In 1969. So, [00:42:00] my responsibility at that time, I also worked with the Ministry of Health in doing outreach at that time, going out, doing advocacy and health outreach in the community. And also, making people aware of the health issues, sickle cell anemia, things of that sort. So we opened up a medical clinic as well. Later on, I worked in the Ministry of Information and I was assigned to the circulation and distribution of the party’s [inaudible?], which was the Black Panther Black Community News Service, and I became the Illinois chapter circulation manager for that paper. And my job was to go out and find new venues for our paper, to circulate our paper throughout the country, and that’s what I wound up doing. As well as other literature and books that we -- JJ: So, how did you do that? [00:43:00] What was the process? JP: Well, the process of doing that was going out on a daily basis, of calling on stores and locations and businesses, Black businesses at that time, and asking them to 24 �take our paper, to sell our paper in their stores. And, most everybody did it. Sold the papers in the stores. So we had a circulation in Chicago of 150,000, 250,000 papers per week. That was our circulation. Also, later on I became responsible for the printing of our newspaper here, and distributing the paper throughout the country to the other chapters and branches. So I did that from 1970, after the murder of Fred Hampton, until 1975. JJ: [00:44:00] What happened after the murder of Fred Hampton, in terms of the party here in Illinois? JP: In terms of...? JJ: In terms of work, and... (inaudible)? JP: No, the work didn’t stop. The work, as a matter of fact, the work became much more intense. For us to go out and do the work. It gave us a lot of support, because people realized that Fred Hampton and Mark Clark were definitely murdered. We also had over 12 party members in the city of Chicago murdered. Not just Fred Hampton and Mark Clark. And we had over 50 party members throughout the country murdered. I thi-- (gap in audio) [sixty?] two, all total, by the end of the -- JJ: But here in Chicago, you had other -- JP: Yes. JJ: -- party members that were murdered? JP: Yes. Yes, we did. JJ: [00:45:00] And these are cold cases, they haven’t been solved? 25 �JP: Well, no, they were murdered by the police. What is there to solve? (laughs) They were murdered by the police. JJ: Okay. And people knew that. Okay. JP: Yes. And people knew that, yes. So we had confrontations with the police at that time, and then it was ongoing. After -- JJ: Were these in raids, in police raids, or? JP: They were in police raids, they were in police shootouts, in neighborhoods that our members worked in, and things of that sort. So a lot of times they were, I would say they were unprovoked attacks by the police, or certain party members were targeted for work they were doing in the community. And they were targeted by those police in those precincts, or in those districts. All right? We were definitely monitored very heavily by J. Edgar Hoover and the FBI, and they created gang intelligence units and [00:46:00] special units, in order to monitor us. JJ: So the gang intelligence unit was also monitoring (inaudible) JP: Yeah. JJ: I mean, they were monitoring the Young Lords. JP: Yes. The gang intelligence unit monitored us, as well as the city’s task force at that time, they called them the task force. JJ: Mm-hmm. The Red Squad. JP: Well, the Red Squad was something else. The Red Squad was specifically there. All right, but the gang intelligence unit -- but the Red Squad was there, 26 �basically targeted to watch what they call radical groups. And that’s what that (inaudible) JJ: So the task force was a different group, too. JP: Yes. The task for-- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: Yes. The task force was a different group. The task force moreso served as the enforcers. When the Red Squad said, “Yeah, we need to do that,” then they went in and did what they had to do. So that’s what that was. JJ: Okay. Plus the regular police... JP: Plus the regular police, yeah. JJ: And what about the precinct workers? Did they spread any... In our community, were spreading rumor [00:47:00] campaigns, and... JP: Oh, yes. Oh, yeah, we had all of that. We had many, many incidents of things that would [encourage?] people. We had incidents where they put young kids up to say they were molested (laughs) by party members and things like that. ’Course, it never flew. But they, you know, they would do things like that. They would go in there and say that we might be holding a fugitive in the office, and they wanted to come in and search, and all these things. People would get just picked up and held by the police, not allowed to make a phone call, and being in police custody. And with no charges being filed against them. So we suffered a lot of harassment. And that harassment somewhat intensified -- well, it was always at a high climate, if you [00:48:00] remember the Black Panther Party. But it certainly was intensified, but we still pushed on, and we implemented more 27 �programs. We had our medical center, our food giveaways. We [still kept?] our breakfast programs a lot. So in terms of the changes, we became a stronger and wiser organization of people. JJ: Anything that you wanted to finish up the interview? That you want to -- that we forgot to talk about? JP: Well, they, you know, there’s a lot that you... JJ: Missed. JP: Can’t... JJ: (laughs) JP: It’s sort of hard to cover everything, but I would like to say that, one thing that we did in 1969, and I think is very, very prevalent to the interview and who’s conducting this interview, is that the Illinois chapter of the Black Panther Party [00:49:00] was the first organization to initiate and implement the Rainbow Coalition. Contrary to what other people think. Okay? And the Rainbow Coalition consisted of the Black Panther Party, the Young Lords Organization, and the Young Patriots Organization. We knew that this society had racism in society, we know that racism is a very, very negative element that exists within this society. As a matter of fact, it’s a birth defect of America. Racism. And so we fight with that birth defect on a daily basis. And we said that what we were going to do, the Black Panther Party being a political organization, the Young Lords Organization, the YLO being a political organization, as well as the Young Patriots. These were poor Blacks, [00:50:00] poor Latinos, and poor whites, who band together to say that we don’t fight racism with racism, that we fight racism 28 �with solidarity. That we realized, in the Black Panther Party, through our education, that racism is a birth defect and a byproduct of the social ills of the society in which we live. And then, the same problems that the Latinos had, Blacks had. The same problems that the Blacks and Latinos had, poor Appalachian whites had, and poor whites had. And that the way that we solved those problems is that we fight together and we unify together to expose the contradiction within society to eradicate the problem. And that’s what was the purpose of the Rainbow Coalition. And that’s what we did. (video cuts) JJ: Give me your name, and when you were born, and then, where you were born. JP: Okay. My name is John Preston. I was born [00:51:00] in May 1954. I was born in Roanoke, Virginia. My family migrated to Chicago when I was four years old. We migrated to the west side of Chicago. And that’s where I grew up at. And I attended parochial schools, here in the city, and parochial grammar schools and high schools. And at that time, in 1968, or, prior to 1968, ’65, ’66, I was involved in the open housing movement as a young kid with my parents and other young adults in the community. With the open housing movement. JJ: What was that? I mean, what -- and who was the group that was leading that? JP: That was the [end-slum?] movement that was led by Dr. Martin Luther King. Where he came to Chicago fighting for open [00:52:00] housing. And so I was involved in picketing slum landlords at that time, and we had the big march on city hall that was organized by SCLC, and... JJ: What year was this? JP: That was in 1966. 29 �JJ: ’66?? JP: Yeah, 1966. And that was the big open housing march on Chicago. Where we had the big rally in Soldiers Field, Martin Luther King spoke, Al Raby spoke, it was a conglomerate of a whole lot of other organizations that spoke. So that was my introduction to the movement, or the Civil Rights Movement. JJ: You mentioned your father was involved with this, or? JP: No, my father wasn’t involved. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: No, my parents or other adults in my family were involved. No, my father wasn’t involved. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JJ: Oh, he wasn’t involved. Okay. JP: No. [00:53:00] But other adults, and other people in the community that were concerned with the open housing movement at that time, and the [end-slums?] movement, that we picketed a lot of realtors that were renting cut-up apartments to people, where people lived in one-room apartments and had to share the kitchen and they were paying high prices in rent. Housing was horrendous. There were rat-infested, roach-infested places, cold water flats, people had to pay for their own heat through kerosene heaters and things of that sort. So they were fire traps, things like that. There was one particular real estate company that was called [Condor and Costellos?], who SCLC specifically targeted, and we were successful in them making concessions. And we closed down a [00:54:00] lot of those buildings. JJ: So, they were targeted. Why were they targeted? 30 �JP: They were targeted because they were basically slum landlords. They were charging high rents for substandard housing. So, that was one of the things that was very, very important. So we picketed this real estate company. We picketed them, and we were successful in them making concessions, making improvements. And also coming up with suitable rents. JJ: Do you recall where they were located (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: They were located at Jackson and Sacramento. JJ: Jackson and Sacramento? JP: Yeah. JJ: Okay. So, these cut-up apartments... JP: Which was common practice. JJ: It was common prac-- JP: Yeah. JJ: Yeah, because I recall in the downtown area, they were cutting up hotels. Hotel rooms, also. But this was -- but these cut-up apartments were more on the west side --? JP: Well, these cut-up apartments were all over. They were all over [00:55:00] everywhere, where a landlord, mostly white at that time, you had white, Jewish landlords that would rent tenements, you had three-room apartments. You had one family, a family of five to six living in a one-room apartment that was a cut-up apartment, that was an apartment that was, one time, a three-bedroom apartment. All right? And they would cut it up, and put three families in a threebedroom apartment. And people would have to share the bedroom as their 31 �house, and then go out and share the kitchen, and the bathroom, and the living room. There was a common area. JJ: How would they share the bathroom? Would they divide it, or...? JP: No, I mean, everybody that lived there had to share one bathroom. So it wasn’t divided, it was -- JJ: So it was, like, in the hallway or something? JP: Yeah, it was in the hallway. It was a bathroom that was for the common apartment. [00:56:00] You know. So you had this, this was common practice all over the Black community at that time. During the time that I grew up, in the early ’60s. I came to Chicago in 1959. So what I saw then was very common. Where you could go in, just about, in any apartment building, and see where these apartments were broken up from apartment. It could be a two-flat building and they might have taken it, and broken it in, and made it to where five people could stay there. JJ: Okay. And what was the... When you came in 1959, you lived -- went right to the west side, you said? JP: Yeah, we lived on the west side, we lived -- JJ: Were there other communities that this group -- the housing program was working at, or? JP: It was -- the open housing movement was sponsored by SCLC, Dr. Martin Luther King, [00:57:00] so it was basically city-wide. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JP: Yeah, it was -- Chicago was basically targeted for that, because -- 32 �JJ: Was this the same time that he marched in the suburbs, or no? JP: Exactly. During the same time he marched in Cicero. Exactly, where he was in and he marched in -- they marched in Marquette Park, in Gage Park, the same thing. To break down those racial barriers for open housing. Yeah. It was during that time. JJ: And how old were you then? I mean, at that time? JP: At that time I was 11, 12 years old. JJ: Okay. So, I mean, how, if you’re 11 or 12 years old, how -- hold on. (video cuts) Okay, testing. Okay. Just kind of testing the (inaudible) [go up to the next?] -- all right. (pause) [00:58:00] Okay, hold on one se-- I mean, it’s recording. JP: Yeah. JJ: So, okay. All right. So where were we, we were on the -- JP: You were asking me, how was that the time that I became introduced to picketing the [end-slums?] movement, and I was -- END OF VIDEO FILE 33 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/85a606422b3e3b6d5addb43ad27cd514.mp4 df320bfca3254b3400c7de526b54b5ca Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry John “Oppress” Preston vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Preston_John Title A name given to the resource John “Oppress” Preston video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Preston, John Description An account of the resource John “Oppress” Preston was a leading member of the Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party (BPP). His role within the party was to set up and distribute the BPP newspaper throughout the state of Illinois. Though the BPP started in Oakland, California in 1966, it was not until April 25, 1967 that they published their first official newspaper. By 1969 the newspaper had a nationwide distribution of about 250,000 copies. In Illinois, distribution climbed up to about 80,000 copies.Mr. Preston describes what a major operation it was to set up and distribute the paper. Many times the newspaper was used as part of Political Education or “P.E.” classes. It was automatically given to new members to sell. The Black Panthers were about being out and active in the community as well as educating the People. The office was primarily used as a place to stop over to eat with others from the community or to report in; very quickly members were back on the streets selling papers and talking with the People.The BPP Newspaper was used as a tool for discussion on the many corners where it was sold. In this way it also provided visibility, as individuals would wave or drive by honking their horns. The newspaper also provided guidance to the Young Lords and to the many other organizations that were connected in one way or the other to the Black Panthers. The Young Lords began to put out their own bilingual newspaper which was then distributed in Latino areas along with several other organizations. Although it was improving, it still lacked in the sophistication of the work done by Mr. Preston. He delivered the newspaper to the various branches and chapters in Illinois cities; they, in turn, would distribute it to their assigned geographical area. There was an accounting for each and every newspaper because the paper also provided income for the BPP chapters. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-27 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/9c98578313225f05817eb194a8321dd7.pdf 2a7def24dbed2de83aa50e81891bb077 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Ted Pearson Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/12/2012 Biography and Description Ted Pearson is a long-time resident of Lincoln Park who has been active within the progressive movement all his life. Early on in 1968 and 1969 he would come by the Young Lord’s People’s Church to offer his support for the Young Lords and their programs. For most of the Young Lords who had just stepped out of gang violence in Chicago, it was their first time ever being involved in protests, demonstrations, or sit-in occupations of institutions. It was a difficult beginning for the Young Lords, who lacked role models and reference points. Some people were even afraid of their unrefined meager appearance, though they were creative and dressed in their best with what they had. Nevertheless, the Young Lords did not originate from a middle class movement. They did not even resemble a student movement at first. It was only later when they began to grow that students and others joined them. Back then there was pride to say you were “Lumpen.” Mr. Pearson and others like him stood for working people, and he hated discrimination and racism then and now. He was one of several who did not judge, but related, relaxed, and took the time to talk and get to know the original members of the Young Lords. It was easy to notice that he genuinely cared for the plight of the poor, and in turn for him to realize that the Young Lords were not evil but were his friends. They were odd looking but they shared the same values. He was also strong on the need to fight racism. Mr. Pearson co-chaired the Chicago branch of the National Alliance Against Racist and Political Repression. His mother had been active in the Women’s �International League for Peace and Freedom. She was a strong supporter of a movement called, “The Right of a Black Family to live in a White Community.” This movement was led by Carl Braden and was put forth during the Red Scare of the 1950s, when the House Un-American Activities Committee was hunting for communists, in all parts of government and the country. Mr. Pearson has supported many democratic causes since before the 1960s. They include the Young Lords and Black Panthers, Voter Registration Drives, Immigrant Rights, The Committee to Defend the Bill Of Rights, Harold Washington for Mayor, the Obama Campaign, and the Lincoln Park Neighbors United for Peace Against the War in Iraq. This was a grassroots group of neighbors who came together to speak out in a unified voice against the war. They believe in using peaceful non-violent solutions, to promote social justice, conserve the environment and protect civil and human rights. �Transcript TED PEARSON: Ted Pearson, I was born July 22nd, 1942, in New York. JOSE JIMENEZ: In New York? TP: Yeah. JJ: All right. Ted, we’re talking about your mother and you coming here to Chicago. You said you were the only child? TP: Mm-hmm. JJ: What about children? Did you have any children, or what’s your spouse’s name? TP: Kathy. And we’ve been married since December 1963. We have two children and four grandchildren. JJ: What are their names? TP: Two children named Allen and Robert and then four grandchildren, Matthew, Emily, Lee, and Lynn. [00:01:00] And of course, they’re all above average, right? JJ: They’re red diaper babies? Is that what you’re saying? TP: Well, no. Lee and Lynn are not, because their family situation was more complicated. Our son married their mother. We call them our grandchildren, but they’re not directly related to us. And then our other two kids, they’re very political actually. Kids aren’t political these days. I don't know what’s the matter, but they just don’t get political. JJ: Do you feel bad about that? TP: Well, I worry about the future of the world when so many kids seem to be not that concerned, but I think it’s changing. I think today, more and more young people 1 �are becoming concerned about the way things are going and what’s going on. But to be honest, I have to say that we didn’t do our job very well, in terms of bringing up the young people to have more of a social conscience [00:02:00] and think more about the future of the world and the people and where we’re going. JJ: When you say they’re not political, do they recognize that there was some discrimination of some people? TP: Oh, yeah, they’re progressive, I would say. They’re democratic, you know, in the small D. JJ: They’re not Republican. TP: No, they’re against discrimination. They’re for peace. They’re for all the right issues, but they’re not activists. JJ: And what is an activist to you? TP: An activist to me is a person who devotes themselves to the movement, who sees that as their main reason for existence, so to speak, you know, the way we were. JJ: So, you mean someone that goes out and will pass out some flyers or go to meetings? TP: Someone [00:03:00] who feels responsible for the future of the world and the city and the community, who doesn’t say, “Yeah, yeah, I agree, but let somebody else worry about it.” JJ: And that’s what’s going on today? TP: I think so, too much, but more and more young people are getting involved. I think the Occupy movement was a good example. It’s a turning point. We’ll see. 2 �JJ: And what did happen to the Occupy movement in Chicago? I remember making a call, and it took me a long time to get through, so I could tell that there was some kind of repressive thing going on there, when I can’t even get ahold of somebody. TP: Yeah. The Occupy movement, of course, it’s very diffused. JJ: And there was something with the phone. It wasn’t that they didn’t respond. I clearly connected to their office. It’s not a response issue. TP: I mean, there are a lot of different currents, and there’s no leader of the Occupy movement, so it’s a kind of a loose [00:04:00] coalition of people. They come, and they respond to specific things, but I think that the spirit is there. They’ve changed the conversation in the country. That’s what’s important, I think. JJ: And a lot of the stuff are issues that at least the Young Lords were concerned about, in terms of the Bank of America and housing and all this other. TP: Yeah, they’re anti-corporate. They’re anti-bank. They’re anti-finance, and many anti-capitalists, but they don’t have a clear revolutionary perspective, I don’t think. JJ: So, what would you say, that they’re just in their infancy, or are they gone? TP: Yeah, it’s a very new movement. No, they’re not gone. I think the State is trying to disrupt them. They’ve been victims of repression. They’ve been infiltrated by the police. They’ll learn. They’re learning. First of all, [00:05:00] you can’t characterize them as such because there’s so many different currents, and I think it’s a very fluid situation. People are learning. People will study. I don’t think that they express a class struggle approach, per se, but they certainly project a struggle approach, and they’re 99 percent against the one percent, but they 3 �might not see it quite as a class struggle because they don’t understand classes the way Marxists would. Let’s put it that way. But still, I’m very optimistic. JJ: I agree that they’re similar in, well, kind of anti-what we were. We wanted to try a different approach or something. For example, the whole too much, like ultrademocracy, they would call it, they wanted [00:06:00] more democracy. They wanted more looseness, and we couldn’t understand. It’s difficult for us -- TP: We’ve been there. JJ: -- to understand that. TP: We have to be very careful we don’t say, “We’ve done that. we could tell you what’s wrong with it.” They gotta learn that for themselves, and they’ll figure out maybe a better way. Not like we had such a great success story. Once we ended the war, things kinda fall apart. JJ: It’s been kinda quiet for a while, so it’s good that they’re there. So, overall, you feel that they’re surprising -- TP: I’m very optimistic, yeah, if we can keep the world from melting in the meantime. (laughs) JJ: So, you mentioned your children now. You said you lived in Lincoln Park since 1964. TP: Yeah. [00:07:00] JJ: Did you live on the western part of Lincoln Park at that time too? TP: We lived at Menomonee and Cleveland, 1808 Cleveland, and we moved there from Hyde Park. My wife and I had just gotten married. We’d just gotten out of 4 �school. We needed a place that we could afford to live. I went and worked for the movement right away, right out of school. I’d never worked at a regular job. JJ: What do you mean? You got a job? You actually got a job? TP: Yeah, I got, well, a paying job. I got 35 dollars a week (laughs) for working for the CP. I started working in the bookstore, and I was also an organizer for the W.E.B. DuBois Clubs, which was a precursor to the Young Communist League, which came later. JJ: So, it was called, at first, the W.E.B. DuBois Club? TP: Yeah. JJ: And what was that like? TP: It was a socialist-oriented youth organization. That’s what we called it, coming out of the McCarthy period. It had an obvious relationship to the Communist Party, but it wasn’t organizationally [00:08:00] connected to the Communist Party. But we needed a place to live that was inexpensive. We couldn’t afford to stay in Hyde Park, so at that time -- and this was back when the Old Town School of Folk Music was still at North Avenue and Cedric. JJ: Oh, I didn’t know they were there first. TP: Yeah, they were at 333 West North Avenue. Also in the building was the Proletarian Party, which you probably never heard of. JJ: No, I never heard of that. TP: This was a bunch of old guys who -- and I mean, they still met. They were a spinoff of one of the socialist parties. JJ: Three-thirty-three, is that where that was? 5 �TP: It’s right on the corner of North and Cedric. There had also been a progressive Marxist school there. JJ: So, how was it for you? That was a progressive area? TP: This was in the ’60s, in the early ’60s, late ’50s. So, we figured the North Side was kind of a cool place to live, [00:09:00] and we wanted to live up there, so we found an apartment at Menomonee and Cleveland, 65 dollars a month for six rooms. And you had to heat it yourself, and had the hot water heater in the kitchen, and the landlord, her name was Bonafede, an Italian couple. The daughter lived on the first floor. They lived on the second floor, and the apartment on the third floor was the one they were renting. JJ: So, was this an Italian area, you think? TP: Well, there was some Italians. It was a mix. It was a mix of Italians, Germans, different European nationalities. JJ: Is your background Italian too? TP: No. My background, my father was Jewish, and my mother was a Presbyterian. So, when we went up there, my wife and I went up there in the evening, [00:10:00] and we liked the place, and the guy says, “Oh, well, my wife made a mistake. When we she showed it to you, she told you 65 dollars, and we’d been charging that for years, and we decided we were gonna raise the rent to 75 dollars. Is that okay?” He said, “Just after a year. It’ll be 65 for the first year and then 75, and I’ll never raise the rent again. I promise.” I said, “That’s great. That’s fine.” I said, “Where is the lease?” He says, “Lease?” He says, “What’s the matter? Don’t you trust me?” (laughter) He says, “You pay the rent, and you 6 �live there. What else do you want, you know?” That’s the way it was back in those days. We lived there five years. He never raised the rent after that, and the only reason we moved was because our kids, we had one kid, and we wanted more, and we’d need more room and bought a little house over on Magnolia Avenue and Webster, and we’ve been there ever since. So, that’s it. But when we bought our house -JJ: Did you live on Bissell also? TP: No, never on Bissell. [00:11:00] We bought our house in 1969 for 13,000 dollars. Most houses today over there are going for over a million dollars. I mean, that’s how the neighborhood’s changed. JJ: Magnolia and Webster in Lincoln Park? TP: Yeah. I mean, when we moved over there, south of Menomonee on Cleveland was mostly Puerto Rican. South of North Avenue was all Black. JJ: South of Menomonee and Cleveland was Puerto Rican in 1964? TP: Yeah. And west of there, Larrabee Street was mostly all Black, and west of Larrabee was mixed, Puerto Rican, Black, white. They tore down all of Larrabee Street. They tore down most of North Avenue, all that North Avenue. They widened the street. They tore all that stuff down. I mean, they just pushed all -- JJ: Because I remember North Avenue was like the borderline. Just like north, [00:12:00] it was beginning to start spreading Puerto Ricans that had come from the Carl Sandburg Village area. TP: Yeah. 7 �JJ: Now, let me ask you a question because you mentioned that Cedric and North Avenue was the aggressive area, also what they used to call Bughouse Square. TP: Yeah, that was at Washington Park. JJ: So, was that also part of that community? TP: Well, it’s south of there, but it had a tradition. JJ: That’s what I mean. TP: It was expected that -- it was a very -- what’s the word? “Progressive” is not quite the right word, but it was a very tolerant area. People, even the old-timers in the neighborhood, would tolerate people who were different, which is maybe why the neighborhood attracted a lot of artists and a lot of hippies and, you know, young people and some radicals [00:13:00] and folk singers like Win Stracke. The Old Town School of Folk Music was right over there. I used to drive a cab, and this is really not very important, but I used to get off work at one or two in the morning. I would go to -- there used to be a place of North and North Park. I drove out of the Checker garage on North Park and North Avenue, and after work, I’d go over to this place, the Saddle Club, right on the corner of North Park and North Avenue. And Win Stracke and all the kids from the Old Town School would come in there after their classes, and they’d sit around, and they’d sing, and they’d drink. It was the greatest time, you know? Nobody does that anymore. Maybe the Old Town School in their new location does that. I don't know. I haven’t been up there. But it’s just, that’s the way the neighborhood was in those days. And everybody was welcome. It was one of the few places in Chicago, even though it was structured -- I mean, it was segregated. [00:14:00] I don’t want to make it 8 �sound like it was -- it wasn’t heaven, you know. There were little ghettos here and there. There was a Puerto Rican block and a Black community. Like west of Sheffield, along Maud and along in there, that was all Black, South of Armitage, west of Sheffield, in that triangle. Now there’s no Black people living there at all, not any, unless they’re wealthy, and I don’t think there are very many that are wealthy. JJ: That’s what you mean by it was segregated? TP: Yeah. But even though it was segregated like that, there was still tolerance. Everybody got along. You mentioned earlier the gangs that were growing up around in the ’60s. I wasn’t aware of that really, to be honest. JJ: But I mean, you didn’t see like Armitage was starting? Because at nighttime, we only saw for a while -- I think it was actually until 1955 [00:15:00] and ’60, I think that the youth, the social clubs became gangs. But at nighttime, there was more Spanish people living there at that time as you went. TP: Yeah. JJ: After like ’66, they were already moving out. TP: Moving west further. JJ: But around ‘64, you could still see some Spanish people living there. TP: Oh, yeah, but I wasn’t aware of gangs. JJ: Oh, you weren’t? TP: No. Of course, we didn’t go out late at night very much. I mean, you’d see people on the street, but -- JJ: Yeah, during the day, they weren’t out. 9 �TP: It was not like it was a high crime area. I don't know. It was a nice place to live, really. And you know, sure, stuff happens. Things would happen. JJ: In fact, they called themselves social clubs, and a lot of them were really playing softball and different -- did you see any of that [00:16:00] going on? TP: You’d see people playing softball, sure, in the schoolyard. Right. But I wasn’t aware of organizations of youth, of young people, because I wasn’t young enough, I guess, and I wasn’t really from that neighborhood in the same way they were. I know there was a little store downstairs from where we lived on Cleveland, you know, one of these little mom-and-pop stores. And the people that ran it, they were racist. They really were. They would say things about Black people and Puerto Ricans that were very uncomplimentary, to say the least, but they never refused to take money from any of the people. They would let kids come into the store and buy things, and people would buy things. They had attitude problems, but still in all, you know. JJ: Now, at that time, there was a big -- it was a group called the [Corps?] that hung around in the playground of St. Michael’s. [00:17:00] You never saw it? TP: I wasn’t aware of it, no. JJ: We were just looking for -- we were young, and we were (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). TP: Right. I wasn’t very aware of that at all. It’s not that I never saw it, I’m sure. I just didn’t think about, you know. JJ: But you were aware that there were these different sections in there, the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) sections? 10 �TP: And I was very aware of the urban renewal that was going on already. JJ: What was that? TP: Well, like on Larrabee Street, there was a big struggle to save Larrabee Street as a Black community, or just as a community, because it was a thriving neighborhood. And there were all these tensions. There was the Ranch Triangle Association, the Lincoln Park -- what were they called? JJ: Neighborhood Association. TP: Neighborhood Association, they wanted urban renewal, and we would all, “we,” now I’m talking about the left-wingers, would always argue, “You know, you guys are shooting yourselves in the head. You allow them to push out these people, [00:18:00] they’re gonna end up pushing everybody out.” And that happened. Most of those folks are all gone, can’t afford to live there anymore, but we lost that struggle. JJ: So, did you go to some of those meetings? TP: Yeah. JJ: And what -- TP: Well, we’d speak, and we’d try to raise hell, but we didn’t win. And it wasn’t ‘til later really that the Neighborhood Commons and the Young Lords, later in the ’60s, late ’60s, that there was more of an organized fight back then. JJ: But in the beginning, you struggled. Were there any Blacks or Spanish people going to the meetings? TP: Sure, because their communities were being affected, but they just spoke as individuals. That’s my recollection. Now, I could be wrong. I remember some of 11 �the progressives in the neighborhood that I thought they were not so clear on it, because everybody [00:19:00] wants to live in a nice neighborhood, right? But how come living in a nice neighborhood means that certain people have to be pushed out of the neighborhood? It’s not right. And I remember the Tap Root Pub. It’s the only thing that was saved, and then they lost their liquor license, but they kept going for a couple years, and then they finally left. JJ: What was his name, Buddy? Buddy was his first name or nickname, Buddy from Tap Root Pub. TP: He was a Libertarian or something. Yeah. JJ: And a shrewd businessperson. TP: Yeah. I can’t remember his name. JJ: But he was still there the same day that they were knocking it down. TP: Yeah. JJ: So, he (inaudible). TP: He held on as long as he could. What the heck was his name? JJ: Buddy. It was Buddy something. TP: Yeah. I don’t remember. JJ: But then he moved. He used the fact that the pub got destroyed, and he moved it [00:20:00] right around the block, so he had a lot of customers. TP: Yeah, but then that’s gone too. JJ: That’s gone now? TP: Yeah, it’s all gone. JJ: That’s sad. 12 �TP: Yeah. I don't know what happened to him. JJ: But he did fight. He was a businessman fighting urban renewal. TP: Yeah, he fought, but he fought by himself. And one man is easy. They picked him off eventually. JJ: Because I know when he was in the building, they were knocking it down. He was still in the building. TP: Yeah. JJ: Okay. So, you were going to the meetings. What about, just ask you because that was during that time the Democratic Convention was close to -- I mean, the neighborhood was also called Lincoln Park, and you were living there. TP: Right. JJ: So, were you active? What was your role? TP: See, I wasn’t active in the neighborhood as I should’ve been, to be honest. [00:21:00] I feel that way now. I was active in the peace movement. I was active in the broader youth movement. There was a demonstration in May of 1968. Clark Kissinger was one of the main organizers of it. You remember Clark? JJ: I remember that name. TP: Good organizer. We marched from Grant Park to the Daley Plaza. The police had closed the Daley Plaza, but they neglected to tell anybody that it was closed, so it was 10,000 people. It’s a pretty big demonstration for Chicago. It was against the Vietnam War. We get to the Daley Plaza, and the police say the plaza’s closed. They wouldn’t let anybody on the sidewalk even, couldn’t get in at all. Nobody in the back of the line knew what was going on in the front of the 13 �line, [00:22:00] except that people were just getting pushed more, tighter and tighter and tighter, and then finally the police said, “You’re a disorderly mob. You have to disperse.” And they started beating the shit outta everybody. This was a precursor to the Democratic Party Convention. It was like a practice run, and arrested I don't know how many people, a lot of people. They beat up. I mean, people were thrown into paddy wagons. They were bloody, fractured skulls. Nobody got killed or anything, but I was there. I was working for the People’s Daily World. I was taking pictures of what was going on. They grabbed me. I got hit over the head, thrown in a wagon. They grabbed my camera, and obviously I didn’t get any of those pictures. And then they threw us all in a tank at 11th and State. It must’ve been 50 people crammed into this holding cell they had. But I missed the Democratic Party [00:23:00] Convention because I got hit by a car in June. JJ: Oh, okay. You got hit by a car? But these people were all from Chicago? TP: Yeah. These were all Chicagoans. This demonstration was all Chicagoans. JJ: This was a precursor to the -- TP: It was a precursor. JJ: -- to the Democratic Convention. TP: Right. And the Democratic Convention, I was in the hospital. I watched it on a TV, felt terrible about it. JJ: You got hit by a car, you said? TP: I got hit by a car, crossing the outer drive, in June of 1968. JJ: But it had nothing to do with the demonstration. 14 �TP: No, I was just on my way to a meeting, actually, and was crossing. I used to park on the other side of the drive. Used to be able to park over there for 25 cents for four hours. (laughs) That was a long time ago. And so, you could park all day for 50 cents, basically, and so I was walking to my car, and I got hit by a car, crossing the drive. Guy ran a red light, and he was going pretty fast, and I spent four months in the hospital. [00:24:00] JJ: Where was your office, and where were you functioning? TP: My office was downtown in the Loop at Monroe and Wabash. That’s the People’s Daily World office and the CP office. JJ: Okay. And now, you mentioned before about the different groups, the W.E.B. DuBois organization? TP: Yeah, W.E.B. DuBois. JJ: Was that a precursor to the -- TP: To the Young Workers Liberation League, which then became the Young Communist League. JJ: Would you say that there were different forms organizing or something like that, different meeting structure, different structure? TP: Well, I mean -- JJ: Without going deep into description, I’m just trying to -- TP: No, the organization was not focused on the neighborhood. Like the DuBois Club, we had a Chicago organization. It wasn’t very large. It was only maybe a couple dozen people. [00:25:00] We were involved in the movement, the civil 15 �rights movement, the peace movement, but not any neighborhood movements per se, although some people were. JJ: So, there was a struggle of saying that they needed work in the neighborhoods? TP: No, we didn’t, not really. I tell you, I became more aware of the neighborhood movement in Lincoln Park when you guys took over the seminary. And that, for me, was really the beginning of involvement in that kind of a struggle, in the neighborhood. I’d been on the periphery of the struggle before. I had opinions. I’m one of those people who has an opinion about everything. I don’t know much, but (laughs) I’ll give you an opinion on anything. JJ: So, what was your involvement with the connection with the Young Lords? TP: I was at McCormick Theological Seminary when you guys sat in. JJ: I remember going to a meeting, I think, with you, if you recall that. TP: I don't know. JJ: We went to a meeting. It was a CP meeting or something. I was just being introduced. [00:26:00] TP: There was a guy that lived in Lincoln Park, David Engelstein. You remember him, his wife, Fritzi Engelstein? He named the clinic after her. JJ: That’s right. TP: He was in the party, and he actually had a group, a study group, I think, and I think you were in the study in the group, and I might’ve gone. JJ: I wasn’t in the study group, but I came. I came to one of the meetings. TP: Because I know he talked about you. JJ: Oh, maybe it was him then. 16 �TP: He was very impressed with you. But anyway, he was more involved in Lincoln Park in the neighborhood. JJ: Okay, so maybe it was him that brought me. But then I don't know how we got to know each other, we got in contact. TP: Well, I got to know you in McCormick Theological Seminary. When you guys, when that sit-in took place, Donna Morgan was involved in that struggle, and I had a personal relationship with her, which I don’t want to go into because it was not the most healthy situation. JJ: Oh, okay, so you knew Donna or something like that? [00:27:00] TP: Yeah, but I got involved in that, not through her, but in part, with her. JJ: Now, did I ever meet [Canti?], or did I meet Donna? TP: You probably met Donna, red-haired woman. She lived on Bissell. JJ: That’s the one. Okay. TP: Right. She had two kids. And she ended up taking a bunch of money from the settlement from the sit-in, which was very bad. She did some really bad stuff. JJ: From the -- TP: From, you know, when you guys got the settlement from McCormick, and I don’t remember. I mean, I don't know, I never knew how it was actually -- the Young Lords got some money. I don't know. JJ: People accused me of taking some money, and I was trying to say, “What money?” TP: There was this group, Angie Lynn? JJ: Angie Lynn, yes. 17 �TP: She had Angie Lynn that set up this working in welfare mothers in Lincoln Park, and they got some money. JJ: Yeah, it was called Mothers and Others. TP: Something like that. Anyway. JJ: Oh, the welfare [00:28:00] group, okay. TP: Yeah. So, they got money from McCormick. JJ: That was Omar Lopez then, the Latin American Defense Organization. TP: Right, that was a different -- JJ: They were working with the welfare rights. So, Donna was working with them? TP: They ended up spending the money, and she spent it on herself. JJ: Okay, because they did get money for a clinic. They got 25,000 dollars for a clinic. TP: Well, they never set up a clinic. JJ: No, they did, but maybe she was managing some of the monies for them. TP: She mismanaged a bunch of the money, because I remember you guys -- JJ: Yeah, because they closed down. We kept our clinic. TP: You guys were really pissed because the question came up, what happened to the money? And I know you came to me. JJ: Exactly. And I got blamed for it, and I never even knew there was money. TP: I didn’t know what was going on. And when we asked Donna about it, she gave us these photocopies of all these checks made out to cash, signed on the back by either her [00:29:00] or Angie Lynn. But she had falsified them. She had whited it out in the main photocopies. 18 �JJ: But Angie Lynn was our communications secretary. TP: Yeah. I got blamed for it because I had the -- JJ: She must’ve falsified Angie’s name. TP: Yeah. I think so. Yeah. But anyway, it doesn’t matter. JJ: Right, but it’s good to know because I’d been accused. I didn’t even know that there was money. TP: I heard on the grapevine years later, well, not that long later, a year or two later, that somebody at McCormick had asked Donna, why did she take all that money? And she said she used it for my campaign. I was running for the Constitutional Convention for 1970. JJ: Exactly. That’s what that was. TP: And she said she used it for my campaign. I said, “What?” JJ: That’s the meeting I went to, was the Constitutional Convention. That’s what it was. TP: I said, “What?” “That’s what she said.” So, I got, “No wonder you guys [00:30:00] came to me mad, wanted to know where the money was.” (laughs) We had a meeting in your office, and it was pretty rough because you thought I had the money, or took the money, I think. JJ: I was accused of having the money, but I would get accused of anything any other members did. TP: Well, they accused you of everything anyway. JJ: Anything the members did, I got blamed for, but that’s all right. That was my responsibility. 19 �TP: Well, I remember you guys used to have those -- it wasn’t a picnic -- like a barbecue, remember, at the church, when you took the church over? It was for [Delares?] or something, and we used to go out and get vegetables and food and bring it over. Remember that? JJ: Right. Yeah. TP: Because we’d have to go down to the old South Border Market and get a lot of stuff for free. JJ: Well, no, I don’t remember completely, so explain to me [00:31:00] about that, and what was that? We had the people (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? TP: I don’t remember the details, but there was more than once, I think. There was a big cookout, and I think a party, a big neighborhood party. JJ: Yeah, we had a block party, the first block party in that area. Now it’s everybody has block parties there. TP: Yeah, and so we went out to the market, and we got vegetables and -- because you know, the market after 11 o’clock, if they can’t sell it, they throw it away anyway, right? So, we would get all the stuff that they hadn’t been able to sell, get corn on the cob and lettuce and tomatoes and all kinds of good stuff. We got some meat from some of the packers, even. I think we got some ribs and stuff. I don’t remember. It was a trunk load of stuff, and we brought it over. It was a great time. JJ: So, you were at McCormick, and that kind of lasted a week. TP: Yeah. I stayed. I slept there a couple nights. JJ: What was it like being in there? 20 �TP: It was fun. I don’t remember. [00:32:00] JJ: What do you remember? TP: I remember there were a couple of big meetings. Was it in the administration building? It wasn’t in the chapel. It was fairly big building. JJ: Yeah, the administration building. TP: And Noel Ignatin was there. Remember Noel and his wife Hilda? JJ: Yeah. She was pretty active with Angie, right, the Mothers and Others? Yeah. TP: Right. And Clark Kissinger was there, and he was waving a Little Red Book all the time. JJ: Clark Kissinger, he was into the Red Book. He was real close to us, and he actually was the artist that did the work inside, the murals inside. He did a whole Puerto Rican history inside the -- TP: I didn’t know that. JJ: -- for the daycare center. He drew it. TP: Yeah, he’s with the RCP now. He’s prominent in that. JJ: Revolutionary -- TP: Revolutionary Communist Party. It’s the Maoists, the only surviving Maoists. JJ: Wasn’t Eugene his dad or somebody? [00:33:00] TP: I don't know. JJ: Eugene Feldman, right? TP: Eugene Feldman, I know, but I don't know -- JJ: Was he related in some way to Clark? TP: I don’t think so. Maybe he was. I don't know. 21 �JJ: Maybe (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). Who was Eugene Feldman’s son? TP: I don't know. Gene Feldman was at the DuSable Museum. That’s how I knew him. JJ: Yeah. But he worked with us too. He was supporting us too. We had a bunch of leaders around us that I didn’t know that they were leaders ‘til later. TP: He was older. JJ: He was older. He was very active and supportive. TP: There were a lot of left-wingers used to live in Lincoln Park. Remember Syd Harris? Did you know him? JJ: No. I heard that name though. TP: He was a photographer. He did a lot of work for the labor movement. JJ: Who? TP: The labor movement. JJ: Oh, he did, Syd Harris? Okay. I knew he (inaudible). That’s what I mean. All these (inaudible) people came around the church TP: His son just published a book of his work a couple years ago, Jerry Harris. Do you know Jerry Harris? JJ: No, I don’t know him, but [00:34:00] I want to get to know him now because now that you mention these names, I remember that they would come. I would get introduced to them. TP: Yeah, Syd used to work on Cedric. Remember where Twin Anchors is, or was? I don't know if it’s still there or not, at Willow and -- is it Willow? JJ: Willow and Cedric. 22 �TP: Willow and Cedric, right on the corner, Syd lived right next door to there, and his house burned down. Oh, it must’ve been in the early ’70s that it happened. JJ: So, the church became like (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). TP: His wife, his first wife, lived on Orchard. Remember Fran Vivian? Does that name ring a bell? JJ: You know, it does ring a bell. TP: Yeah, an older white lady that lived at like 1848 North Orchard. She and Syd, not naming the other, Phyllis Harris, lived in that building. They had a two-flat. JJ: If you hadn’t mentioned the names, I would’ve forgotten them. TP: These were old-timers. They’d been there for a while. [00:35:00] JJ: And did they always live in Lincoln Park? TP: Yeah. I don't know about Syd, but I know Fran had lived there for, I don't know -- JJ: Ages? TP: -- a thousand years. (laughs) JJ: So, they were from Lincoln Park. They were the progressives of Lincoln Park and the CP. (laughs) TP: Yeah. Well, David and Fritzi lived in Lincoln Park. They always did. They used to live on -- JJ: That’s right, because the clinic was named after her. TP: -- what was it -- on Belden just east of -- JJ: So, what was Fritzi? Why were they involved, and what did they do? TP: David is an educator. JJ: I know they named the clinic after her. 23 �TP: And Fritzi was active. I think she was active with -- remember what’s-her-name -Kathy Devine and all those people that had -- JJ: Pat Devine. TP: Pat Devine, yeah. JJ: I actually interviewed her too. TP: Good. And she’s still in Chicago? JJ: She’s still in Chicago. She’s on the South Side. TP: I haven’t seen her in a long time. I probably wouldn’t know her if I saw her now, you know? JJ: Yeah. Well, you’ll see her. The interview’s on YouTube. TP: Okay. [00:36:00] But Fritzi somehow got involved, maybe coming out of the meetings that David had with you guys. I don't know. There was a lot of fervor. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) were involved. JJ: She was involved with Pat. Pat was definitely going with us. Pat was one of the people that got me involved in the (inaudible). TP: Yeah. And I’m trying to remember, was the clinic -- I don’t remember why she -- JJ: Well, the clinic, right in the beginning, we had one clinic, and that was Fritzi Engel’s thing. That was more on diversity. But I knew them, so I knew these people, and I knew why they named the clinic after her, so she must’ve done a lot of -- TP: Yeah, she was a very good person. I think she passed away. I can’t remember when she died. I’d have to look at some files. JJ: What was she involved with? 24 �TP: You know, I don't know. I’d have to go back and look. I could find out. [00:37:00] She was obviously well-known enough that they named the clinic after her. JJ: Right. So, she must’ve done a lot. TP: Have you talked to Mike James? He would know. JJ: I have talked to Mike James. But I will talk to him. I got to talk to him, especially now. So, what Eugene Feldman? What was he? TP: Feldman, I only knew from the DuSable Museum. I really didn’t know him from Lincoln Park. JJ: So, he was connected to the DuSable Museum. TP: He lived in Lincoln Park though, I think. JJ: He lived in Lincoln Park? TP: Right. The main way I knew him was through the DuSable Museum. JJ: Yeah, Lincoln Park had offices in tabloids, newspaper tabloids. All the different groups were -- TP: Yeah. I remember the Wobblies used to -- well, Johnny Ross and them, the Threepenny settlement, and he was kind of a character. JJ: Well, actually, he would give us monies from his theatre, and we actually one day went to him for monies, and he refused. And we sat in, in his office, and then the reporters [00:38:00] came and wanted us to talk against him, but then we decided not to do that because we had a lot of respect for him, so we just walked outta there. And the next day, he called and says, “Okay, we can talk now,” and he gave us a donation. But we didn’t want to go against someone who was progressive. 25 �TP: Yeah. He had that building. JJ: And that was good. TP: He had that building on Lincoln Avenue, where the Wobblies had their office, you remember, upstairs? JJ: Right. Oh, that was his building? TP: Yeah. JJ: I know he had the (inaudible) theatre and all that, Threepenny, something like that. TP: He had a bunch of theatres in Chicago, all on (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). JJ: Yeah, that’s what it was. He had the Spanish theatres too, were his. TP: Right. He had one up on Sheridan Road. I forget the name of it. It was like Sheridan and south of Lawrence. JJ: Oh, yeah, that’s right. We actually had a meeting there. TP: I think it was a big theatre. I don’t remember the name of it though. JJ: I can’t remember what it was. TP: Palacio something. I don't know. JJ: Palacio Theatre. Yeah, [00:39:00] he was (inaudible) TP: Anyway, you bring back memories, you know? I would’ve never thought of this stuff. (laughs) JJ: That was Lincoln Park. TP: But actually, Johnny lived in Hyde Park, but he had a lot of connections in Lincoln Park. JJ: He had fought against the fascism of the Spanish Civil War. 26 �TP: He was in the Lincoln Batts, yeah. JJ: Which we didn’t know. I mean, we were there. The Young Lords, it was the first time we were ever active. Our parents were not as active as some of the Independence Party or anything. That was the first time we were active. TP: Syd Harris was in the Spanish Civil War also. JJ: Who’s that, Syd Harris? TP: Yeah. JJ: So, what else then, in terms of the changes in Lincoln Park after the Young Lords are no longer there? TP: What time is it getting? Oh, but the coffee. Shut off the (inaudible). Let’s get the -- (break in audio) TP: Everybody that lives there now -- I’ll start [00:40:00] with my block. I live on the 2200 block on Magnolia. Of the people who lived there when we moved there in 1969, there are probably three families left. Erwin Helfer lives across the street. I don't know if you know him. He’s a blues piano player, kind of well known. He was there when we moved in. There was a lady across the street just died this week. And then the Midlers, who live two doors down from us, they’re still there. That’s it. I think I said we paid 13,000 dollars for our house. [00:41:00] Our taxes were 9-- dollars a year. Now our taxes are 25,000 dollars. JJ: A year? From 900 to 20 grand? TP: Yeah. You know, there’s tremendous pressure on people to sell their houses. All the old-timers are gone. 27 �JJ: Would that be the main pressure, that the taxes are up? TP: It’s a big part of it, sure, because you can’t afford to live there. It’s like paying rent to the county. You think you own your house, and you’re paying all this money to the county. Now, I’ll be honest. We rebuilt our house in 1995. We were going to make it bigger, but then it turned out it was actually cheaper to tear it down and build a new one, so that’s what we did. So, that caused our taxes to go up. If we were to rehab the house, it wouldn’t be as high. [00:42:00] I don’t think we realized what the effect would be. So, people whose houses have not been torn down and rebuilt, their taxes aren’t as bad as ours, but it’s still like paying rent to the county. And if you’re a working-class family on a pension, you can’t afford it. And the only reason the Midlers are still there, I’m sure, is because their son lives with them, and he's got a good job, and they can afford to stay there. JJ: But I mean, that did help you, the equity of your house, right? TP: Yeah, but big deal. You can’t spend your equity. What are you gonna do? They say, “Well, these people are complaining about their taxes, but when they sell their house, they’ll get all this money.” But we’re not selling our house. We don’t want to move. We want to stay where we are. A lot of other people had to sell their houses because they couldn’t afford to live there anymore with the taxes because the property values were going up so high. [00:43:00] I mean, when we moved there, the rents were like less than 100 dollars a month. Now a twobedroom apartment, you’ll pay 2,000, 3,000 dollars a month for it. JJ: And when you say that, you’re talking about a big area? 28 �TP: Yeah, the whole Lincoln Park. Where we live on the western edge of Lincoln Park, it’s not -- JJ: Is it by the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) square area? TP: Yeah, it’s becoming even more than over east. It’s costing more. Now they’re building -- you didn’t know these people, I’m sure, but there used to be an old German couple that lived on our block. They had a nice building. Their mother lived there with them, and they rented out one apartment. It was a lot and a half. They moved to Las Vegas or someplace. The building got sold. The guy who bought it tore it down. They built a mansion there. It’s like a 20-room house with a huge drawing room and a [00:44:00] grand piano in it. It’s ridiculous, you know? (laughs) The house on the corner of Belden and Magnolia just sold a couple years ago for four million dollars. Who could afford to live in a neighborhood like that anymore? Working-class people can’t afford that. When we moved on that block, on our block, it was a very mixed block. Around the corner, two Black families, two mixed Black and white families, actually they’re still there. Surprisingly, they’re still there. In fact, the guy that used to work at the hardware store at Armitage, Armitage hardware, what was that, Frank’s Hardware, remember? He’s a Black guy. He used to work at that store on Lynwood. JJ: And he lives on Lynwood? TP: Yeah, he lives around the corner still. He still lives around the corner. JJ: But is the hardware store still there? [00:45:00] 29 �TP: The hardware store is gone. Now, I mean, they have like a bail order business there or something. It’s not really a store. You can’t go in and buy stuff. JJ: And that was pretty well established. TP: Yeah. That was a good hardware store. Also on the block, there was a Mexican family, been there a long time. The whole block was working-class people. Next door to us, there was a couple that had come from Kentucky. He’d been a miner. He was retired early because of black lung. All these people are gone. The neighborhood, rest of like Southport over there was mostly Latino. South of Webster, between Webster and Armitage and Sheffield and Racine was mostly Puerto Rican. That’s my recollection anyway. North of Webster were the old Germans and Italians, and [00:46:00] remember the Kellys? They still live there. They still live on Seminary. Kelly’s Pub, you know Kelly’s Pub on -- JJ: Yeah. TP: They’re still there, but they got money. They were never hurting. But I bet you a lot of the Kellys that used to live on that block aren’t there anymore. I haven’t checked. I’d have to go look. But I ran for alderman. JJ: So, there was a block of Kellys. TP: Yeah. When I ran for alderman, I went door to door, getting signatures on my petition, you know? JJ: You ran for alderman there? TP: In ’71, yeah. JJ: When? TP: Seventy-one. Yeah, I ran against Bill Singer. 30 �JJ: Oh, I didn’t know that. TP: That’s how I got to know Bill Singer, is running against him. JJ: Actually, when he ran for mayor, he came by the church and wanted our endorsement, and then he took a picture with us. (laughs) But we would’ve endorsed you. TP: Well, I didn’t run for mayor. [00:47:00] But the neighborhood is so different now. South of Armitage was all Black, west of Sheffield, south of Armitage, that triangle, east of Clybourn, Maud Street, Kenmore, what was the other? What’s the block west of Sheffield? JJ: West of Sheffield? TP: Yeah. It’s not Dayton. That’s Clark Street. JJ: Yeah, you got Kenmore, and you got Seminary. TP: Yeah, it was Kenmore, Seminary, yeah, those two streets. It was all Black. Now it’s all white, all white. There used to be machine shops all in the neighborhood. Remember? JJ: Right. TP: You know? They’re all condominiums now. People used to neighborhood. Nobody works in the neighborhood now unless they work in the stores, you know, as a clerk. And they don’t [00:48:00] live in the neighborhood. They have to take the bus to get to the neighborhood. But the machine shops, they’re all gone. They’re all condominiums now. Remember there used to be a place on Fullerton, west of Ashland, called [KRIVO?] that catered to the machine trade, the machinists. They had every tool you could imagine. If you could think of a 31 �tool, they had it. There’s no place like that left in the neighborhood. There used to be a place on Clybourn that’s just this side of the tracks, between Fullerton and the railroad tracks, on Clybourn. It had nothing but nuts and bolts. It was entire store, a city lot store filled with nuts and bolts. That’s all they sold. There was no screw that you could possibly [00:49:00] want that they didn’t have. I used to work on my car, and I had an English car. If I broke a bolt, you couldn’t get it at a hardware store. You’d go to that little store, they would have exactly what you needed, the right length, the right thickness, the right thread, everything. That store is gone. All the stuff, when Chicago used to actually make things, in that neighborhood, we used to make stuff in that neighborhood, you know? There used to be that, remember the Pink Lady soap factory over on Lakewood? JJ: Yeah. TP: That’s condominiums now. Believe it or not, they converted that chemical company into condominiums. If those people had any idea what had been going on in that building before they got there, they knew what toxic chemicals were in there, they wouldn’t live there, but nobody told them, so now it’s condominiums. JJ: I believe I had read something that Lincoln Park had a history of [00:50:00] working-class families that, I mean, some of the housing was built back in the ’30s and ’40s war, so like you mentioned, the factories. TP: Yeah, because there were all these factories right in the neighborhood, you could walk to work. You had a couple big machine shops on Clybourn, and then Finkl was over there. They’re still there, Finkl is, although they’re moving too. They’re 32 �going to shut that down now and move that too. They’ll probably put a shopping mall in there or something. JJ: Yeah, they moved all the factories that were there, so that was something that I hadn’t looked at. Now, as an activist person, as someone that knows about racism and all that, how do you feel about what took place in terms of -- I mean, I’m looking at it [00:51:00] from a Latino perspective, but the Black community was wiped out of there, and working-class people were wiped out of there. How do you see that? How was that done, and how do you feel about it? TP: Well, it was done because nobody saw that -- I mean, there were a lot of white property owners in Lincoln Park who thought that making the neighborhood better, which is code for getting rid of the Latinos and the Black people, would somehow make their neighborhood safer and better and all that stuff, except that they couldn’t afford to live there anymore either. So, they were snookered. They were tricked, and racism does that. JJ: What do you mean they were tricked? TP: The real estate agents, the real estate interests, the people, the City, the people who pushed urban renewal. JJ: The City was also involved? TP: Yeah, I mean, of course. It was the whole power structure in there. It was not just a few individuals. [00:52:00] I mean, they had a master plan. Come on, you know that. They planned the get rid of Cabrini-Green 30 years ago, 40 years ago. They realized they made a big mistake when they allowed Black people to live there. They started attacking that project from the beginning. You know 33 �what? You mentioned Fred Hampton. People don’t remember this. Six months after Fred Hampton was murdered, two police were killed at Cabrini-Green, allegedly by snipers. They went through Cabrini-Green. They knocked down all the doors. They arrested hundreds of people. They finally settled on a couple of people that they pinned that crime on, and we’re in touch, the alliance is in touch with those guys now, much [00:53:00] later. JJ: You said, “the alliance.” What’s the name? TP: The Chicago Alliance Against Racist and Political Repression. I’m completely convinced that they’re innocent. They’ve been in prison for 40 years, 42 years. They’re very well adjusted to prison life because when you’re facing a life sentence -- JJ: What are their names again? TP: Johnnie Veal and George Knights. Johnnie Veal was 16 or 17 when this happened. They accused him of being the triggerman who actually shot these two police. Fact is, he was there when it happened, but he wasn’t where they said he was. He wasn’t upstairs shooting at people. He was downstairs playing basketball. We’re struggling to try to reopen his case, but they targeted CabriniGreen for destruction that long ago. They were already thinking about ways, [00:54:00] and they just let the place go to hell, you know? They didn’t do anything to stop the gangs there. They didn’t do anything to make it livable for people, and they made it impossible for people to live there. And then when they wanted to tear it all down, they could get away with it. And you look what’s over 34 �there now. They say they have mixed-income housing, you know, mixed, maybe one or two Black people, and everybody else is middle income. JJ: So, the community was kind of integrated, in a way, segregated? TP: Segregated but mixed. JJ: But mixed. TP: Right. JJ: But how does it look today? TP: Today, it’s all white, except there’s still a few little places left they haven’t got to yet, but it’s just time, just time. JJ: So, you see that as clear race, a racist thing, as an activist person, or how do you see it? TP: Sure. Absolutely. It couldn’t have happened -- [00:55:00] if the white people would’ve objected -- JJ: Because apparently legally, it’s not racism because otherwise they would’ve been sued, right? TP: Well, they were sued, but that’s another story. I mean, sure, you can sue them, but you won’t win. If the white people in the community had not been taken in by this idea of racism, by the idea that somehow getting rid of Black people would make the neighborhood better, and the Puerto Ricans, and the neighborhood would still be livable for those people. Those people are all gone now. They’ve been pushed out just like everybody else. I mean, a lot of them have died. Let’s face it. It’s true too. A lot of them stayed until they passed away, and their kids sold the house. The kids didn’t stay there. They cashed it in. 35 �JJ: So, from your vantage point, how would you attack something? If it’s a racist plan, how would you attack it, from your vantage point, still being living there, [00:56:00] but seeing how everyone got kicked out? TP: I don't know if there’s anything that can be done now to save that neighborhood. JJ: No, not to save their neighborhood but I mean other, the future other. TP: The same thing is going on in Logan Square and in Wicker Park. Wicker Park is probably too late. Logan Square, maybe it’s still possible. I don't know. JJ: Some people say, “Let’s join the zoning board,” or, “Let’s run for council.” TP: I’m for that. You can fight in all those areas. What time is it? I got to watch because I got a meeting. What time is it? JJ: I think it’s time. TP: But, you know, we can continue if you want, I mean later, some other time later, but talk to other people too. END OF VIDEO FILE 36 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/3744a8195158c1733d017ce090ddf04f.mp4 92c6122616fcf53a6550281530cf1b8d Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Ted Pearson vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Pearson_Ted Title A name given to the resource Ted Pearson video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Pearson, Ted Description An account of the resource Ted Pearson is a long-time resident of Lincoln Park who has been active within the progressive movement all his life. Early on in 1968 and 1969 he would come by the Young Lord’s People’s Church to offer his support for the Young Lords and their programs. For most of the Young Lords who had just stepped out of gang violence in Chicago, it was their first time ever being involved in protests, demonstrations, or sit-in occupations of institutions. It was a difficult beginning for the Young Lords, who lacked role models and reference points. Some people were even afraid of their unrefined meager appearance, though they were creative and dressed in their best with what they had. Nevertheless, the Young Lords did not originate from a middle class movement. They did not even resemble a student movement at first. It was only later when they began to grow that students and others joined them. Back then there was pride to say you were “Lumpen.” Mr. Pearson and others like him stood for working people, and he hated discrimination and racism then and now. He was one of several who did not judge, but related, relaxed, and took the time to talk and get to know the original members of the Young Lords. It was easy to notice that he genuinely cared for the plight of the poor, and in turn for him to realize that the Young Lords were not evil but were his friends. They were odd looking but they shared the same values. He was also strong on the need to fight racism. Mr. Pearson co-chaired the Chicago branch of the National Alliance Against Racist and Political Repression. His mother had been active in the Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom. She was a strong supporter of a movement called, “The Right of a Black Family to live in a White Community.” This movement was led by Carl Braden and was put forth during the Red Scare of the 1950s, when the House Un-American Activities Committee was hunting for communists, in all parts of government and the country. Mr. Pearson has supported many democratic causes since before the 1960s. They include the Young Lords and Black Panthers, Voter Registration Drives, Immigrant Rights, The Committee to Defend the Bill Of Rights, Harold Washington for Mayor, the Obama Campaign, and the Lincoln Park Neighbors United for Peace Against the War in Iraq. This was a grassroots group of neighbors who came together to speak out in a unified voice against the war. They believe in using peaceful non-violent solutions, to promote social justice, conserve the environment and protect civil and human rights. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-12 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b051a417dc9e826f1a80a8390d7669d9.pdf cad0ed10b1cc1ea6cce5c132870fd727 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Felícitas Nuñez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 8/25/2012 Biography and Description Felícitas Nuñez lives in Bermuda Dunes, California. She and Delia Ravelo are co-founders of Teatro de Las Chicanas. The concept began when women of Movimiento Estudíantil Chicano de Aztlán (MEChA) brought their mothers to a university setting. There they organized a “Seminario de Chicanas” so that the mothers could understand what their daughters were going through. They wrote and performed “Chicana Goes to College.” And as a result of the audience’s positive response, Ms. Nuñez and Ms. Ravelo formed the Teatro de Las Chicanas. In the beginning years the core group consisted of just Ms. Ravelo and Ms. Nuñez, but many young women participated in the Teatro. Though working in San Diego, they were influenced by the leftist political ideals of the San Francisco Mime Troupe. They also united with the objectives of the Chicano Movement which included, among other things, social justice, bilingual education, and unionization. It also went further to address women’s equality. Several of the plays written and performed by the Teatro as well as the memories of their core members have been published in Teatro Chicana: A Collective Memoir and Selected Plays (2008). Most of the women who joined the Teatro came from farming towns throughout California and most of them were the first of their families to attend college. Around the early part of June 1969, Ms. Nuñez traveled to Chicago and met with the Young Lords who were transforming themselves from a local Puerto Rican gang into a human rights movement. One month earlier, the Young Lords had occupied the administration building �of McCormick Theological Seminary (today on the campus of DePaul University) with 350 neighborhood residents and held it for an entire week. The Young Lords won all their demands, including $50,000 seed money for two free health clinics, $25,000 to open up the People’s Law Office which still operates today, and $650,000 to be invested by the seminary in low-income housing. One week earlier, the Young Lords had occupied a huge United Methodist Church on Dayton and Armitage, which they were in the process of transforming to become the Young Lords National Headquarters. The church would also house their Free Community Day Care Center, Free Dental and Health Clinic, and Free Breakfast for Children Program. All these programs were modeled after the Black Panther Party programs, of which the Young Lords had recently also connected via Fred Hampton’s Rainbow Coalition that Field Marshall Bobby Lee had also helped to broker. After the take-over of the church, the Young Lords quickly made amends. They did not want to disrupt any church service. When asked by the press if the Young Lords were going to allow the church to hold service, Mr. Jiménez quickly responded, “that it was not really a take over as the doors were now open to everyone, and that he and other Young Lords were planning on attending the services, being led by Rev. Bruce Johnson.” Some members of the congregation left but the Young Lords started meetings with the rest of the congregation, and together they designed the People’s Church symbol and produced a button that showed chains being broken. The Young Lords were cleaning up the church and adding needed paint when Ms. Nuñez arrived and volunteered to organize a group of muralists. Inside the church, Ron Clark and others were painting a mural of Puerto Rican history in the gymnasium. Outside, Ms. Nuñez’s group painted the Young Lords symbol of ”Tengo Puerto Rico En Mi Corazón” or “I have Puerto Rico in my Heart.” This lettering was in purple, with a green map of Puerto Rico, and a brown fist holding a rifle. (It had been designed by Ralph “Spaghetti” Rivera and Mr. Jiménez. The first buttons were printed at the Green Duc Button Company at Lake Street and Halsted). Other murals that Ms. Nuñez and her volunteers painted on the church walls were images of Adelita, Emiliano Zapata, Lolita Lebrón, and Don Pedro Albizu Campos. Someone else, probably Ron Clark, painted Che Guevara by the side entrance to the office, with the lettering “Young Lords National Headquarters.” These wonderful murals could not be overlooked in Lincoln Park. Not only were they featured in the news, but Lincoln Park residents would drive by and stop in to see the various programs and activities, making People’s Church the center of the Lincoln Park neighborhood. By then most Puerto Ricans had been forced out of Lincoln Park and there was also plenty of room for others to join the Young Lords Movement. Hispanos representing all Latino nations joined the Young Lords, including members of other minorities, middle class individuals, workers, the very poor, and students. The Lincoln Park Poor People’s Coalition was formed and Mr. Jiménez was voted president. The Northside Cooperative Ministry, of which Rev. Bruce Johnson was a prominent member, was also established during this period, and it supported the Poor People’s Coalition and the Young Lords. Just sixty days before Mark Clark and Fred Hampton were shot to death, assassinated in a predawn raid led by State’s attorney Edward Hanrahan, Rev. Bruce Johnson and his wife Eugenia were also discovered in their beds stabbed multiple times, in a cold case that remains unsolved. The Eulogy was given at the church with Young Lords fully participating, providing security and traffic control. There was also a spontaneous march through the Lincoln Park Community where Rev. Bruce Johnson worked with the poor. Ms. Nuñez left Chicago unaware of the impact she had made in the Puerto Rican community and in Lincoln Park. The Teatro Chicana did participate in the impromptu Lincoln Park Camp in Michigan in the 2000 and the Young Lords 40th Anniversary celebration in Chicago in 2008. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, go ahead. If you can give me your name and your -- FELICITAS NUÑEZ: Age. JJ: Age and where you were born. FN: I was born in Brawley, California; that’s very close to the Mexicali border. And I am almost 63 years of age, and my name is Felícitas Nuñez. JJ: Okay, Brawley, California. Where’s that at? FN: It’s in Imperial Valley where you have -- JJ: The mid part of -- FN: It’s on the lower part of California close to the border -- JJ: Close to the border? Okay. FN: -- of Mexicali. JJ: Okay, so somewhere -- FN: Very, very hot weather. And when I was first born in the late ’40s, it was a very rich cultural area in agriculture. JJ: In agriculture? Okay, what type of -- FN: They had tomato, (Spanish) [00:01:00] -- I mean, just a big vegetable garden that could feed all of California and more than that. JJ: Okay, so this is a rural area. So you had a farm? Did you own a farm or [anything like the?] -- FN: Oh, no, we worked in the farms of others who owned them. And initially when that originated, they said that the way they started claiming the land was if you 1 �could walk that land -- whatever land you walked, you could claim as your own, and that meant everybody. But I understand that historically, what happened is those that had horses-- specifically, you know, they were mainly Anglo people. They got on a horse, and rode around on the horse and claimed the land. And if they saw anybody on foot, which was mainly whoever couldn’t afford a horse, those were shot. JJ: They were shot? FN: Uh-huh. JJ: To death? FN: Yes. JJ: [00:02:00] Even if they lived there, they were shot there? FN: Well, everybody was claiming land at that time, so I don’t know if everybody there was recently immigrated into that land or really established. But it was a pretty new territory because irrigation had been in full bloom, you know, and those areas that are very dry don’t have a lot of cultivation. So when the canal system came into existence, it had a lot of potential in them. And just like I said, it was a vegetable garden for the whole state of California and more. JJ: So you said there was a canal system set up, or...? FN: Mm-hmm. JJ: How did that function? I mean, where did they -- FN: They got the water from Río Colorado. JJ: Río Colorado? Okay. 2 �FN: And that’s how they started that whole irrigation process. And I understand that that’s the way that the Salton Sea was formed because some dam broke or something, and it filled this whole space. And they call it a man-made sea, Salton Sea, [00:03:00] and there was a salt mine there at one time. And it went all the way to the bottom, so the water filled everything up and became very salty. And fish were able to thrive there at one time, but now with the pollution of pesticides, insecticides, herbicides, everything’s been dying. And, you know, now they’re not even having the Colorado River run through there like it used to because water rights are being claimed privately, and so all the water that’s been drying -- the wind picks up all of this, and everybody’s breathing this massive pollution contamination of the water and earth. JJ: And what was your mother’s and father’s names? FN: (Spanish) [00:03:54] Felícitas [Melina?] -- JJ: Melina? FN: [00:03:57] -- (Spanish) [Felino?] Nuñez. (Spanish). [00:04:00] JJ: (Spanish)? [00:04:13] FN: (Spanish). [00:04:14] JJ: (Spanish)? [00:04:28] FN: (Spanish). [00:04:29] JJ: (Spanish)? [00:04:32] FN: Uh-huh. JJ: So (Spanish)? [00:04:34] What was their names? 3 �FN: (Spanish) [00:04:39] Felino, Julia, Rosa, Josephina. (Spanish) [00:04:48] [Genaro?], Fidel, Raphael, (Spanish), [00:04:52] [Teresa?]. JJ: And what did they do? Where are they at now? FN: [00:04:58] (Spanish). [00:05:00] JJ: (Spanish). [00:05:30] FN: [00:05:31] (Spanish). [00:06:00] JJ: (Spanish) [00:06:06] -- what is that, Bracero? FN: Bracero? [00:06:10] (Spanish). [00:07:00] JJ: (Spanish)? [00:07:25] FN: (Spanish) [00:07:31] -- JJ: (Spanish)? [00:07:32] FN: (Spanish) [00:07:33] -- JJ: (Spanish)? [00:07:35] FN: (Spanish)? [00:07:40] JJ: (Spanish). [00:07:42] FN: (Spanish). [00:07:43] JJ: What is that? FN: (Spanish) [00:07:56] nurse’s aide. [00:08:00] JJ: Nurse’s aide? Okay. FN: (Spanish). [00:08:02] JJ: So I thought in the late ’40s, they were bringing Puerto Rican workers to some of the vagrant camps during that time, so maybe that’s when it happened or later. FN: Yeah, that -- 4 �JJ: Or it stopped -- FN: There’s, I guess -- JJ: -- (laughs) [with the ’60s?]. FN: -- an overall strategy on how things come about. I mean, it doesn’t happen accidentally. The fact that work from the outside is brought in, work that is not consciously organized to fight for their rights, because they’re desperate or they know whoever’s employing them are going to make the contract that -- these people are desperate, so they use that weakness to break whatever strength we had built up here in the United States already. Because the United States has an incredible history of people that fought for rights, and you know, we’re always [00:09:00] putting down the concept of communism. You know, they say, “Oh, you know, you’re a communist,” and you think, “Well, what is a communist?” And it’s a person that thinks of the commonwealth, that thinks about community, and talk about the model of -- what, you know, people admire a lot of Christ was that he was a very just person. In legend or history, whichever, he’s an icon of a image that shared broke bread, you know? And to be called a communist, I think, “Well, my goodness, what’s so ugly about that?” But, you know, it came up with McCarthy. You know, anybody that’s labelled that is really- tried to be put down. JJ: So now, were your parents Catholic, [00:10:00] or what’s -- FN: My mother especially was very religious, and -- JJ: But of what church? FN: (Spanish). [00:10:07] 5 �JJ: (Spanish), [00:10:08] okay. FN: But that was her sanctuary because she was a person that was very naive to begin with. She got into a relationship that was not good. My father was not a very good role model of a human person. In some respects, he was, but when it came to -- he was in the same general -- JJ: What do you mean by that? FN: -- arena where men think they’re superior to women. And then it happens, you know, that women start -- you know, sometimes women are more male supremist than men because they really take that to heart and really think that women should not come out of their roles. So my mother was very Catholic, [00:11:00] but at the same time, the church offered her sanctuary because of the abuse. You know, she had nowhere to turn, and church was a very acceptable place of sanctuary because it was respected by (Spanish). [00:11:16] You know, my father said, “Well, she didn’t go to a cantina to get sanctuary. She went to church to get sanctuary.” And she found a lot of -- JJ: So meaning sanctuary [around?] there -- FN: Where you go to a place, a sacred space, and pour out all of your woes and problems, and get that inspirational strength. And it can be anywhere, but -- JJ: So she didn’t go there to run away or anything. She just went there to pour out her [things?] -- FN: To enforce her spirituality. And, you know, I really -- you know, people say, “Well, are you religious?” And I don’t know. Sometimes to respond -- [00:12:00] I respect people have their religion, but I think in general, what we’re talking 6 �about is her spirituality regardless of what religion it is. The thing is religion becomes an ingroup. If you’re a Catholic or a Protestant, “No, you don’t leave,” but, you know, it sort of divides you. But in common, what we have is that quest, that need for spirituality enforcement. And that commonality to -- you know, that we are one, so religion in the institutionalized sense has done more damage. More wars have been caused in the name of God than, you know, what the image of what Christ was; you know, to love your neighbor, to share bread, to treat everyone as equals. And of course, you know, [00:13:00] that’s all we know because the Bible was written by man, and testament means “witness of testicles”, you know? JJ: Is that what it means, or...? FN: Yes. We don’t have a vagina-ment, you know, so in the Bible -- JJ: Okay, so that’s not -- you’re being a little facetious about that. FN: Well, no, I’m saying that we can accept testament, but we can’t accept a thing like vagina-ment. I mean, to say that vagina is one of the most terrible things that you can say is just offensive as communist. Vagina, communist, menstruation -it’s like, “Oh, my God,” you know? So all of that, you know, goes into my thinking of, “Yes, I do respect religion, but not when it controls you totally to where it puts you against another people just because they have another religion,” [00:14:00] because spirituality should not be property. To me, it’s, you know, connecting to the universe, connecting to the world, connecting to your neighbors, connecting to yourself as one. And that collective consciousness really needs to come out because what happens is the way we are taken over and controlled is by divisive 7 �means. Men against women, black against white, white against red, red against yellow -- you know, it just goes on forever. JJ: Okay, so you’re -- FN: And it just -- JJ: -- growing up in which valley? FN: Right now, I’m living in the -- JJ: No, but at that time, where -- FN: I grew up in Imperial Valley. JJ: Imperial Valley, yeah, okay. FN: And Imperial Valley is mainly [00:15:00] a rural area that was run by (Spanish) [00:15:05] that were Anglo. JJ: Oh, the (Spanish) [00:15:07] were Anglo? FN: Yes, uh-huh. And there, they -- JJ: But I mean, big -- FN: Yeah, big acres of -- JJ: -- acres of land? FN: -- agriculture. JJ: Or agriculture? FN: And all the workers were -- JJ: Where did the workers live? FN: The workers? We were lucky to be one of the fir-- well, I don’t know about the first, but my father had a steady job as a foreman, so that gave us more -- JJ: A foreman there at the -- 8 �FN: A foreman of the Braceros that worked in the fields that were contracted. JJ: Okay, so -- FN: So he was able to gain citizenship. My mother did -- JJ: But did he build his way up, or -- FN: No, he -- JJ: -- he just came in as the foreman? FN: Yeah, he migrated from Mexico, lived in San Bernardino for a while, worked in the trains -- JJ: So he had gone to school [or something to be?] -- except they hired him as a foreman. [00:16:00] FN: He was very smart with figures, and he knew English. JJ: He knew English. FN: He had already worked in the train station in San Bernardino that -- a lot of Mexicanos worked with the trains at that time, and then it started going down because the trucking industry started taking over. But the reason he left the train was because he ran off with my mother. He was about 21, and she was about 15, so they ran away. And then my grandmother put him in jail, so he had to marry my mother, but they ended up in Imperial Valley. And he was hired as a foreman for the Braceros. JJ: Okay, so since he was a foreman, we were talking about where you lived. FN: Yeah, we were able to -- my mother was basically the one that got us a house, you know, because they were living in carpets just like everybody else, (Spanish) -- [00:16:55] 9 �JJ: What do you mean? FN: -- (Spanish). [00:16:56] JJ: (Spanish)? [00:16:57] FN: Just a, you know, makeshift [00:17:00] tent, whatever you could find; sometimes branches or whatever, you know, you could put together to have shelter. JJ: Like a one-room whatever you could build. FN: (Spanish); [00:17:12] you know, dirt floors, and you know, she did the best she could. But then when my older brothers and sisters started working in the fields, she started thinking that they could have a house. And so they all put their money together, and they were able to get a house. JJ: So they were able to get a house, but still, they worked in the fields and -- FN: Oh, yeah, and then my mother eventually got a job in the hospital as a nurse aid. And that was against my father’s wish because he wanted the control, you know. So that was good, and also, she had a sister, my aunt [Aggie?], who started working at this store called Kress. And to us, that was a big honor, [00:18:00] you know, because she worked in a store, my God. You know, that was -- JJ: In the town? That was a town where -- FN: Uh-huh, in San Bernardino. She stayed in San Bernardino, my aunt Aggie, so that also gave us a -- JJ: So she was a big person, yeah. FN: Yeah, she was a big shot, you know, to us. My brother was a big shot because he drove a machine. I mean, Mexicanos didn’t drive machines or work at stores, 10 �you know, where they sold stuff, so that was I guess you could call a progressive side of the family in those days. But -JJ: Okay. So was there that kind of -- some people were looked on better than others, or...? FN: Yes. JJ: Okay. Was there -- FN: Anybody that newly migrated from Mexico were labeled as (Spanish), [00:18:50] wetback -- JJ: (Spanish)? [00:18:56] FN: Uh-huh, (Spanish). [00:18:57] JJ: Why? FN: That was a [00:19:00] derogatory -- JJ: A derogatory term? FN: A very derogatory -- JJ: (Spanish), [00:19:02] you say? FN: (Spanish) [00:19:03] because they crossed the wire. JJ: The wire? Okay. FN: Mm-hmm, but then that’s how we -- JJ: Then you said wetbacks too? Was that a thing? FN: Wetbacks, uh-huh. My -- JJ: They were calling each other wetbacks, or...? FN: No, the people that were already established in the little town like, for example, us. We were established more than the ones coming in, and that’s another thing 11 �that happens, you know. Every time somebody gets established, even though you come from that same root, now you’re turning around and putting them down. Before we came, you know, my mother crossed El Rio Grande. She was almost drowning, and she was about seven years old. So how they came across is illegally, but then, you know, a lot of people forget. You know, it’s like, “Oh, no, I’m a citizen,” but how did everybody start? I mean, Jesus, they say, “Well, [00:20:00] who’s an American?” We’re all American, and the Native American Indians are more American than any American that ever has set foot here, so there’s a thing, you know, within the Mexicanos where they say, “(Spanish).” [00:20:14] What do you mean, Americano? “(Spanish).” [00:20:17] Well, geez, you know, I’m an American, and I’m more American than the (Spanish) [00:20:24] who crossed the sea. If I crossed a river, they crossed an ocean. They crossed from the other side of the world. But even within us, you know, we have been taught to respect more that comes from way, way far from the other side of the world. And then, you know, here we are discriminating the people that have roots, that have a history, that have an origin. So it’s a lot of internal scars that we have, weaknesses that we have, that we [00:21:00] have to supersede by educating ourselves because if you don’t have education, your outlook is very, very limited. And you become very prejudiced, very greedy, advantageous, and it just goes on and on. It’s a vicious cycle where you destroy your own nest. You know, they say we are the only species that soil our nest, and that’s because, you know, the ones that have the power to do so much are polluting the world at a faster rate than has ever been known. We are destroying 12 �the waters, the air, the earth, so what does that mean? We’re destroying our own nest because -- what can we do without Mother Earth? And again, you know, that goes back to [00:22:00] religion. When did religion become male? So that’s very imbalanced already, the philosophy of the world. “Oh, men run the world.” Well, geez, you know, the world is female, so once men become superior or even -- like I said, some women are more male supremist than men. If a woman is inferior, she can be divided. She can be raped. She can be abused. She can be polluted. So can the earth. The earth can be divided, sold here, prostituted, polluted, but what’s even more sadder is the concept that you can do both to the mothers and then Mother Earth. Well, then all the children that come of women are vulnerable for exploitation. [00:23:00] I mean, even in the Bible, what is one of the reasons to baptize? Because in the Catholic churches, for example, and I don’t accept this, if you’re born from woman, from a vagina, you’re dirty. So you have to be baptized and cleansed. Why do we accept that? If you see a child, this infant -- you’re holding it, and you’re thinking like, “Where’s the mortal sin?” But we accept it or we don’t understand it, and so we have baptisms, and we go along with the show and have a big party and get drunk. And it’s an excuse to party, but we’re not understanding exactly what we are accepting. So I don’t know where we’re going with this, but anyway -JJ: No, because you mentioned Mother Earth and trying to see [00:24:00] the Indigenous people, so I was going to ask for your other worldviews also and things like that. So where does this come from? 13 �FN: The taking over of patriarchal religion destroyed the Indigenous Native religions because they were based on respect for Mother Earth. If they did something, they would say, “Well, if we organize this way or we manage this way --” because the land was owned communally at one time. And so their thinking was, “If we do this, how is it going to affect the next seven generations?” So you can’t think like that in our modern world because you’re going to make profit to hell if you’re going to kill your own kids in the next 10 generations. You don’t care. You’re going to make money. You’re going to profit, so it’s hard [00:25:00] for us to think, “Well, if I put these pesticides into this plant, it’s going to kill the bug right now, and it’s going to grow a big crop. And I’m going to have all this.” And then you say, “Well, what does it do to the human body? What does it do to the animals around? What does it do to the birds?” And in that mentality, you’re going to make a profit. You don’t care. You don’t care if it’s going to kill thousands of birds, if it’s going to pollute the water, if it’s going to ruin people’s kidneys, if it’s going to kill children, or it’s going to cause asthma for the next 10 -I mean, the mentality’s so -- JJ: Okay, but where do you begin thinking like this, you personally? FN: I personally -- well, because like I said, spirituality is something that [00:26:00] needs to flourish in all of us. JJ: But I mean, when did you start thinking about spirituality and Mother Earth? Was that, I mean, from birth, or...? FN: Oh, no. At one time, I was very, very Catholic, although I questioned a lot of things, because I was brought up -- like I said, my mother was the one that found 14 �sanctuary in Catholic, so I can respect that to some extent, she needed that. So we were brought up very Catholic by my mother because my father was gone. My father was out of the picture. I mean, he would come in and out and -JJ: And what do you mean? He just left? FN: Well, no, he worked and then -- JJ: But he wasn’t around? FN: He really wasn’t around. JJ: So where did he hang out at? FN: At the bars. JJ: At the bars? Okay. Did he have a drinking problem or just -- FN: Yeah, but we called -- it was a man thing to do. JJ: A man thing to do, okay. FN: But it wasn’t called alcoholism. [00:27:00] And then -- JJ: So he drank every day, or just on weekends or...? FN: I don’t know because I was too young. I was the second youngest, but -- JJ: Okay, but he did go to the bars and to -- FN: Oh, yeah, but my oldest brothers and sisters -- maybe they don’t want to remember, but like I said, he lacked in being a responsible parent, what I think should be a responsible -- or even just to yourself where you don’t abuse other people. Anyway, so -- JJ: So you don’t -- FN: -- I was brought up in the Catholic religion, and I had a lot of questions. “How could this infant have mortal sin,” you know, was one of my questions when I was 15 �very, very young. But then I would see -- you know, my mother was very principled. She was very honest. She was very devoted to her family, her children. She loved us all. Even though we were all very different, she never discriminated [00:28:00] or favored one over the other, although she did hold that thing that -- if you were a woman, you had to make the beds. (laughter) She had that, you know? It was ingrained already, but in other respects, she was an incredible woman that -JJ: So you had to be a cook or something like that if you were a woman? FN: Yeah, you had to know how to make tortillas because who was going to love you if you didn’t know how to make tortillas? And then she was -- in the religion, you can’t help but get a lot of this same male supremacy sense. You know, we didn’t bow down to a female God. We bowed down to a male God only. So I became very religious up to the point where when I was already in 11th, 12th grade, I didn’t know how I was going to get out of the house. I wanted to get out of the house, but I knew that to get married would be not for me. If I ran away from the house, where would I end up? [00:29:00] How would I live? So I -- JJ: Because of your mom or because of your dad, or...? FN: Well, because I started thinking. JJ: Because you started thinking, okay. FN: Because my mother said if I ran away, she was going to put me in juvenile, so that was going to be a history of going into -- JJ: You started challenging weakness? 16 �FN: Mm-hmm. She was very, very stern, and she was my biggest enemy. But then now, I think -- because I wanted to run around like crazy, you know? I mean, and everybody does. When you’re young, you just want to cut loose, but you don’t understand the responsibility of freedom. You don’t understand the responsibility of liberty, and are real naive, so she had a good control on me. She used to say I was the worst one of all the family because I used to question things a lot, so in a way, I’m very grateful that she -- JJ: Did she tell you that directly at a certain point? FN: [00:30:00] What did she -- JJ: When did she tell you that? FN: Tell me what? JJ: That you were the worst one? FN: Oh, just in talking -- when I started getting a little bit better because when I was by the age of 16, 17, she used to say, “(Spanish).” [00:30:16] But basically, because I questioned everything -- you know, she would say, “(Spanish).” [00:30:26] And I would say, “(Spanish)?” [00:30:30] Oh, my God, it was like, “How could I even come up with a question like that?” Or, you know, when I wanted to go out, she would say, “(Spanish),” [00:30:46] and I was so mad. And then, you know, she would just -- sometimes I think I caused fear in her because I would say, “Well, I don’t want any kids, you know.” “(Spanish)?” [00:31:00] “You know, I don’t even want to bother with that,” and I was shocking, I guess, to her. And sometimes I feel bad because I caused her a lot of grief, but she was very, very strong and very principled and very high morals. And that, I learned 17 �from her. So like I said, I was in 12th grade, and I even thought of becoming a nun. JJ: What school did you go to? What school was this? FN: Let’s see. I went to Miguel Hidalgo in elementary, and we never knew who Miguel Hidalgo was. I had picked up a book and started learning who he was, so when I transferred to a Catholic school for two years, I was very proud to say in seventh grade that I came from Miguel Hidalgo. And most of the school that I was at -- you know, they looked down at you because, “That’s dirt, you know, you come from.” But I thought geez, you know, it was a Catholic school. [00:32:00] They would uphold somebody like Miguel Hidalgo, you know, who fought within the religion, and no, it wasn’t like that. JJ: Yeah, who was Miguel Hidalgo? FN: (Spanish)? [00:32:10] JJ: Who was he? FN: He was, in history, a priest that stood up for the common good -- he was a communist, I guess you could say, you know -- and equality within the religion itself. Just because you were a Mexican didn’t mean you couldn’t be a priest or an archbishop or whatever. And I think that was mainly what I remember in history, you know, that he fought for the Indigenous people to be dignified and to be respected. So it didn’t go well in Catholic school. JJ: You wanted to be a nun. FN: [00:33:00] Well, at that time, I was really out of bounds, you know. JJ: Out of bounds? 18 �FN: Yeah, I rebelled, I guess, a lot, and those were probably the most trying years for my mother. But what I first told you -- the reason I wanted to go to Catholic school is because I also sensed that there was a (Spanish) [00:33:27] like you were going to be doomed to go to another public school on the other side of the tracks. And it didn’t look very good because when the principal from Barbara Worth came and gave a whole spiel on more or less the routine of what it was to go to the other side of the tracks to a place called Barbara Worth, the main questions that came from us in my peer group was, “Well, you know, what if you play hooky? What’s going to happen?” And all they talked about [00:34:00] was, “What if you offended the rules? What would happen?” And so, you know, of course, they would tell you, “Well, you’ll be punished for this. This is the punishment that’s going to happen.” And I kept thinking, “Well, why are they just talking about that?” And there was also another reason. You know, I was a real big flirt, and I heard that the girls at Barbara Worth were going to sort of kick my ass because I was flirting with their boyfriends or whatever, so I thought, “Oh, my God, I don’t want to go over there and get, you know, beat up.” So I told my mother, “I want to go to Catholic school,” because, you know, she was a hard worker. And she goes, “(Spanish)!” [00:34:42] You know, she thought I was wanting to be a nun from then, I guess. She thought I was, you know, very Catholic, but I had my personal intentions. But even then, I was curious about, you know, the difference, and I did [00:35:00] have ambitions to get out of the house somehow. But I didn’t know, so I figured, “Explore, you know? Adventure into unknown territory.” So then I did, and then I went to high school. And I still 19 �didn’t know how I was going to get out of the house, so I figured that I could become a nun. And then you read the story of Sor Juana Inés de la Cruz, you know. JJ: Who is she? I don’t know her. FN: She was a person that had a lot of chances to get married. She had admirers, but she chose not to. And she became a nun, and I think mostly because she was a writer. She was a poet, and you couldn’t be both. It was very difficult to be both a poet or an artist, a writer, and be married because when you get married, you’re supposed to hang on or be subject to be controlled by your [00:36:00] male partner. So I think that that was very significant about her, but I wanted to become a nun because I wanted to get out of the house and under the control of my mother. And that was my reason, you know. It -- JJ: Now, she didn’t control you physically. It was just her -- FN: No, physically, I didn’t go to wherever I wanted. I wanted to be out on the streets, but she kept me home. I mean, I couldn’t go out of the house -- JJ: Oh, okay, I see. FN: -- at 12:00 of midnight and ride around in a motorcycle or whatever you all do, (laughter) but I did try. So luckily, EOP came around, and not only that -- JJ: What’s EOP? FN: Educational Opportunity Programs, and it was through the efforts of Johnson’s war on poverty. But of course, behind that was the Civil Rights Movement; people that gave up so much, you know, that [00:37:00] dared to say, “I’m human. I have dignity.” And so many people that gave up their lives and gave 20 �up so much so that I could go to school, and so that’s how I got into school. But also, what was ironic is that I had an older sister who became a registered nurse, probably the first one in the family or the whole Clan de Nuñez -JJ: What was her name? FN: Rosa. Probably in the whole nation, she was the first registered nurse, (laughter) but the reason she got into nursing school was because she was going to be like my mother, a nurse aid. Got into the hospital working, and she was taking care of this patient who was a ranchero. And this ranchero knew all of the Nuñez clan that worked in the fields. I mean, my father came from a [00:38:00] family of 12, so -- JJ: He came from a family of 12, and there was 11 children too with -- FN: Yeah he had, with my mother, eleven children, but he had a big family. JJ: So there was a big clan in that area? FN: Huge, so -- JJ: In Imperial Valley, okay. Are they still there? FN: A lot of them are, and a lot of them have moved into LA and further on up San Jose. So anyway, this ranchero knew all of the (Spanish) [00:38:34] and about four or three sisters over there. And when he found out my sister was working there as a nurse aid, out of somewhere, this ranchero who had a lot to do with the exploitation of labor -- I mean, because you weren’t paid. I mean, the profit that they made was never compared to the wages that were paid. [00:39:00] He asked if she wanted to be a real nurse; I think that was the term, real nurse. And my sister, I guess, probably didn’t really -- maybe she knew a little bit more, and 21 �she said yes. In other words, a registered nurse. Not just a nurse aid because, you know, you have more responsibilities as a registered nurse, so you have to be more educated in terms of administering medication and side effects and reactions and what to do, and reporting to the doctor and keeping maintenance. And he sent her to school, and he put it in his will before he died -- he was dying -- that her education was going to get paid regardless whether he was around or not. And the family abided by that, and these were the oppressors, you could say; the people that, you know, took advantage of cheap labor. JJ: You’re talking about the ranchero FN: Yes, this ranchero [00:40:00] I don’t know his name, but -- JJ: Did you look at him as the oppressor at that time, or no, you didn’t know that -- FN: Oh, no, but I mean, when you start learning how the Imperial Valley -- I didn’t know about the history of the Imperial Valley, you know, how the land was occupied -- JJ: What do you mean? FN: -- how the land was controlled by only blancos JJ: Okay, occupied meaning that it used to be -- FN: That the land was there for people to use and make use of. You know, if you walked around a piece of land, you could own it, but then those that had horses used the horse to claim the land and then shot the ones that were walking, which was mainly Mexicanos, you know? That’s the history that I know of. And then at one time, they did have lawyers coming in from out of town, and I think some of 22 �’em were hanged before they got into town because they were in defense of the common [00:41:00] good. So yeah, I -JJ: So Rosa’s education was being paid for? FN: Yeah, my education was paid for with the lives of so many people. Any educational opportunities was what it came out to be. But as far as how I become spiritual or aspired to the spiritual is through education, and now this education was not just in a classroom. A lot of our education in those days, especially when you and I were young, was outside, you know, in the (Spanish), [00:41:45] in the study groups that we had to understand the situation better. Later on in life, you know, it took -- and I’m talking about [00:42:00] my retirement now. When I was in my fifties, I started going back to school as a hobby because I love education. I love, you know, this curiosity that I have, right, so I took philosophy, the psychology of women, and the Old Testament and the New Testament, and art. Oil painting, watercolor, you know, whatever, and so that’s when I started getting into mythology. And then I came across Carl Jung, and oh, my world changed. It was like I fell in love with this person. JJ: Who is Carl Jung? FN: Carl Jung is a psychologist, and he clashed with Freud because Freud was very dogmatic. I mean, Freud was talking about penis envy, and he was talking about, you know, knowing the mind. [00:43:00] You could call it playing on our weaknesses and misinformation of male supremacy, and Carl Jung couldn’t go along with him, and they had a breakup. But I think what Freud brought to the 23 �front was the aspect of dreaming, you know, how important dreams are, and then Carl Jung took it to a -JJ: [Another?] -- FN: -- more explainable way, and Joseph Campbell too. I mean, Joseph Campbell and Carl Jung were very much -- JJ: Similar? FN: -- the same, uh-huh. The respect for the big dream, the acknowledgement that the little dream -- you know, as an individual, how you can use dreams, omens, or -- a way to prevent further damage, or a way to aspire to higher goals. But the big dream is like the [00:44:00] collective consciousness, and the building of a better world instead of the building of a world where you’re going to destroy it due to greed, to putting profit ahead, you know, of -- JJ: So are you more into it because the social or the mental health of it -- because you were into nursing, and these are kind of the same philos-- I mean, they’re into psychology, right? FN: Mm-hmm. Well, one of the reasons -- when I was very young, I always wanted to be an artist, an actor. But my father, in this way, was practical. He says, “(Spanish).” [00:44:42] And I would think, “God, you know, I guess the concept of starving artist for the...” So I always saw, you know, that I had to have a profession where I could eat and be comfortable, and [00:45:00] then I had my older sister, Rosa, as an example of the feeling that you can depend on yourself and not have to bow down to anyone else. So I always wanted that, and I never wanted to get married. And I never wanted to have children, and I never wanted 24 �to go back to work in the fields. And maybe the reason -- because, you know, you’re very badly paid. JJ: Because you did work in -- FN: In the fields, yeah. JJ: -- the fields for yourself for how long? FN: Only when I was basically young. I think I started when I was in seventh grade. I worked with a family member, and I used to get the boxes of the (Spanish), [00:45:48] but she says, “(Spanish).” [00:45:50] You know, told me, “You let the family name down,” so -- JJ: So you had to work hard, eh? FN: Unloading boxes, you know, up there on the trucks and [00:46:00] stuff, but it was sort of not out of a great need -- JJ: Because that is that culture, right? You’re there, and you know it’s hard work, but somebody’s putting even more pressure on you to do it faster and -- FN: Uh-huh. But in a way, it wasn’t out of great need, you know, because the money that I did make, I used for clothes to go to school. And the other thing that I did when I made my first big money according to those days -- I actually promised that I was going to give to the church too, and I remember putting 20 dollars in the basket, a 20-dollar bill. In 1964, that’s a lot of money, tons of money, but I did it. And at that moment, it was like a promise to myself that when you say something -- that’s what I learned from my mother -- [00:47:00] your word is very, very precious. And it’s not something that you mess around with, so when you 25 �give your word, if you don’t, you know, go through with it, what kind of a human are you? So she really put that into me. JJ: So you’re an artist? FN: Well, an artist at heart, but I became a registered nurse for practical reasons. JJ: Right, but what type of artist? I mean -- FN: (laughter) Well, I always wanted to be an actor, and I love art. You know, I go to this group, and I say, “I just love art. I love artists, you know,” and that’s usually my intro. JJ: But what type of art? FN: What type of art? JJ: Because I mean, [00:48:00] I’m not that, you know, [endeared by?] art, but I mean, I kind of -- FN: What happened with me with art too is that I never really took it serious, and I’m talking about drawing and painting and stuff. So when I was taking classes in oil painting -- you know, you start getting into understanding who Da Vinci was and Picasso, Diego. And then you read a little bit of the history. You know, Diego was a communist. Frida was a communist. Picasso was a communist, and you’re thinking, “Well, geez, you know, artists are supposed to be apolitical.” You know, that’s the understanding that comes across. Andy Warhol, for example, became very famous, and you’re thinking, “Well, all he did was a bunch of prints of a tomato soup can or Marilyn Monroe in different colors.” So you don’t understand, and you’re thinking, “Well, what’s the big deal, you know?” And so then you start [00:49:00] reading, and again, here comes education, that he 26 �appealed to the manufacturing of goods. So he appealed to the whimsical, the upper class; you know, the manufacture of goods. And so now, I look at those prints -- for example, Marilyn Monroe -- and say, “Okay, I got to get my boobs fixed. Oh, I want a pink shoe, a yellow shoe, blue shoes.” And again, you know, it’s like what I brought up earlier. You baptize your kid when they’re infants because they have mortal sin, and you really don’t understand it, but you have a big party. So, you know, now you look at these pictures, and somewhere somehow in the background, you say, “I have pink shoes, but now I need blue shoes.” And do you need them, or is it just this consumerism that we have gotten into? You know, it’s like a [00:50:00] infection, you know, that has taken us to this barrage of commercials. If we invested more time into education than in commercials, can you imagine where we would be? This country supposedly is one of the most richest countries in the world, and yet our education is at a very low level. Our health is at a very low level, and the processing of food -- we don’t understand what we’re doing to our children feeding them potato chips. All of the hormones that go into beef, antibiotics to keep ’em from rotting -- I didn’t know what veal was. I’ve never had it because it was always so expensive, but I always wondered. And when I read what veal is -- you know, you put a little cow in [00:51:00] a box, and you don’t let it move, but you inject it with antibiotics the whole time so that it doesn’t rot. So then this meat is what you eat, and it’s tender and everything, you know, what they say about veal. And you’re thinking, “Oh, you know, how can you eat that,” understanding the background. And this 27 �is why education is so precious. It’s incredibly precious, and to survive, to thrive, you have to educate yourself. JJ: So you went to that high school. What high school was this? FN: I went to, I’m sorry, Brawley Union High School. JJ: And then how -- FN: I went to Our Lady of the Sacred Heart School, but I remember one time doing a paper, and I put Our Lady of the Sacred Heart. But I didn’t know it and I misspelled it, and I put Our Lady of the Scared Heart. And I did it unconsciously, [00:52:00] but now I wonder -- you know, because well, first of all, spelling, right? But I remember the nun getting up there in front and just lecturing us about disrespect, and I was, the whole time, wondering why was she going on and on. Well, it was based on the title of my paper, Our Lady of the Scared Heart. But yeah, from Sacred Heart, I went to Brawley Union High School. And then from Brawley Union High School, I was able to get into what they call San Diego State College in those days. And then it was changed to San Diego State University. JJ: Right. There was a lot happening at San Diego State University over there at that time. Alurista was there, right? FN: Yes. JJ: And then -- FN: Nationalism at its highest peak. JJ: Okay, well, explain who he was and what he -- FN: Alurista -- JJ: Because I met him in Denver, but I didn’t know -- 28 �FN: -- as far as I understand, was a -- JJ: [00:53:00] -- too much about him. FN: He was from Tijuana, then he was able to go to high school here in the United States. And then he got into San Diego State, and he became a poet and read up a little bit on Aztec history. And well, at that time, he was the know-it-all on culture, so -- JJ: So know-it-all meaning -- FN: Meaning that -- JJ: -- he was well-known? FN: -- the younger ones that were coming in, you know, used to think, “Well, geez, you know, he knows a lot.” JJ: And didn’t he come up with the concept of Aztlán, or...? FN: Well, I guess, yeah, but when you -- JJ: But he was a know-it-all of Aztec -- FN: Yeah, he was probably the one that knew the most at that time, and we thought - but that’s a whole other area to cover. But did you [00:54:00] want to go into that now? JJ: Just briefly if you know. FN: Yeah, he became a poet. And because we knew him personally, we didn’t really swallow everything. I mean, at least I didn’t, and I know my friend, Sylvia, who was my hitchhiking buddy -- we ventured out of the box. I mean, as it is, we ventured out of the box when we left our homes. Then, you know, we get into San Diego State, and we venture out of the box when everybody’s in the high on 29 �nationalism to the point where it almost becomes fascist, you know? Everybody goes, “(Spanish).” [00:54:39] And you go, “Wait a minute. You know, here we go again, the ingroup thing.” And so Sylvia Romero and I came together at some point when we first started San Diego State. As a matter of fact, I heard from her that she thought I was just a (Spanish), [00:54:58] you know, [00:55:00] from Brawley. JJ: What’s a (Spanish)? [00:55:01] I’m sorry. FN: A (Spanish) [00:55:02] is a very rough, I guess, character that paints their face a lot, and is very cool and very rough. This person can be very rough, but yet she’s very controlled by men. That’s what I think, you know. They have a tendency to want to be, you know, themselves, but then somewhere, it gets -once they have children or once they get into drugs, that stops. So she thought I was a (Spanish). [00:55:39] And then one time, she was rooming with my friend, Maria Sanchez, who was from my hometown, and I was all dressed up. We had gone to a fraternity party, me and our school friend, Henrietta, and I was all dressed up. JJ: Who was your fraternity? FN: It was a fraternity, the [Gabachos?], you know? JJ: Oh, the [00:56:00] Gabachos, yeah. FN: Uh-huh, and that’s because it’s known as -- JJ: The Gabachos is what? FN: The Gabachos? Anglos. JJ: Anglos, okay. 30 �FN: And it was known as a party school, so hey, I wanted to find out, you know? I didn’t care. I mean, I wanted to explore, so we went to it. And I was all dressed up, and I was waiting for Maria Sanchez to come -- I don’t know where she was at -- and Sylvia was there. And she kept looking at me, and I thought I was -after a while, I said, “You know, I better go because I don’t know what time she’s going to be in, but tell her I dropped by.” We lived in the Olmeca dorms at San Diego State. And so from then on, she had a different impression of me, so then that’s how we started hitchhiking and how we started sharing our views to some extent. JJ: Hitchhiking where? FN: To San Francisco. JJ: Okay, right before that? FN: Uh-huh, and then she was also with me -- JJ: What year was this that you did that? FN: Oh, probably 1969 -- JJ: Sixty-nine. FN: -- 1970, something like that. As a matter of fact, we got picked up by Cesar Chavez in his cart. [00:57:00] Oh, but she was the one that was in Denver, Colorado with me to the Denver youth conference that Corky Gonzales -- when I met you. JJ: Okay, but this -- what was the Denver conference about? Which one do you mean? FN: The Denver conference -- what was it about? 31 �JJ: Because for us, that was a big, you know -- FN: Oh, geez, I had no idea. I mean, first of all, I thought I had gotten out of the box when I had left my home, but I was just going to go get my nursing degree and go work as a nurse and have my place. I always wanted a bunch of cats, and that was -- you know, be independent and have a bunch of cats in the house. That was my dream. And so we get there to San Diego State, and I never was even in an organization, first of all, because my mother couldn’t really afford -like I said, she had tight reins on me [00:58:00] for the longest time. And I think she did it because I was probably the most wild one, so I couldn’t even be -maybe I would’ve pushed it, but I wasn’t in any volleyball teams or any athlete teams outside of schools and no organizations at all, nothing. So I was introduced to San Diego State, and they had this MAYA program, Mexican American Youth Association. And I thought, “Wow, what’s an organization? You know, what do they do,” this, you know, curiosity because I got the sense that because of people’s struggles, I was able to get into school. That was one of my initial understandings, so I felt an obligation to this organization. And then through them, I got to go to the Denver conference, and it was a youth conference. And I really had no idea what it was about expect that it was this man called [00:59:00] Corky Gonzales who had this poem, but you know, even with that -- JJ: What was the poem? FN: Yo soy Joaquín. JJ: Yo soy Joaquín, okay. 32 �FN: Which was very, very powerful, but still, I had a sense of being left out. And yet, it was a sense of pride. JJ: He also was a boxer at one time, right? FN: Yes. But basically, what was emphasized was the respect, the dignity, the power of the male image. But I still thought I had a chance, you know, because it still gave me pride. Because, you know, being from that culture, that background, I identified with it on an equal basis, although I didn’t sense it too much from the poem until years later. I go back and read it, then I go, “Whoa, where’s the women,” you know? (laughter) But either way, it was a step just like MAYA was a step into being proud of my identity. [01:00:00] You know, in school, I was known as Phyllis [Nunns?], and I became Felícitas Nuñez. And I was always like, “God, you know, why did my mother give me this name? You know, who has a name like that?” And now, it was like, “Whoa, my name is Felícitas,” and I wasn’t embarrassed or ashamed of it. So we go to the Denver, Colorado conference, and oh, my God, it was immense. It was like being in an ocean. JJ: And what year was this? FN: Was it 1969? JJ: Sixty-nine or ’68. FN: Sixty-nine. JJ: Or ’69. FN: And that was my first introduction to a massive -- JJ: Who was there, and -- FN: Who was there? 33 �JJ: -- what kind of population? FN: Basically Mexicanos that I knew of, and that’s where I discovered [01:01:00] that my cousin, Manuel Delgado -- because I saw him on film getting beat up. The concept of Third World hadn’t entered into my life yet, and that’s how I connected with my cousin into the Third World and started hitchhiking to San Francisco. JJ: Mm-hmm. He got beat up, you said. What do you mean? FN: He was one of the leaders in the Third World at Berkeley; you know, students fighting for -- JJ: What’s his name again? FN: -- recognition. Manuel Delgado, and he also put out a book called The Last Chicano. JJ: The Last Chicano. FN: So he -- JJ: So he was getting beat up by the police? FN: Uh-huh. JJ: Oh, he did. FN: Yeah, he did by the police, but that’s how I recognized him at that conference. And one of the persons that was there already that I got to know later was Manuel Gomez. JJ: And who was he? FN: He was also at Berkeley, and he knew my cousin. So anyway, it was -- JJ: And who were some of the other groups that were there? 34 �FN: The other groups? People [01:02:00] I didn’t know. There was a lot of students. And I remember we were sitting down, and Alurista was there, the great poet, I guess. And these young girls came -- JJ: That’s where I met him. I didn’t -- FN: “Oh, Alurista!” And we’re looking like, “What’s wrong with them?” You know, they looked like kids that were very excited by this guy that we knew, and we were like, “What the hell’s going on here,” you know? (laughter) But that was them from the outside and us from the inside, you know, having a different view or, you know, sense of saying, “What’s the big ruckus about,” right? But I think most of the people there were Mexicanos from all over. Very, very exciting, but I guess, you know, what caught my eye was the Young Lords. Oh, and talking about, you know, Sylvia and I going out of the boxes from our house and then into an organization, and then into Denver -- well, at Denver, I do recall, you know, that the people from San Diego wanted to [01:03:00] stay in a little group. And Sylvia had this, I think, sense of also exploring because we didn’t stay with a group. I mean, it was like, “Hey, you know, keep connected,” but this was a time to just explore. And I remember them going, you know, like this, and we were just going, “Hey!” (laughs) JJ: Who was they? FN: I think I remember -- JJ: Some of the Young Lords? We were doing that, or no? FN: No, the ones from San Diego State. JJ: Oh, from San Diego State telling you -- 35 �FN: Yeah, and -- JJ: -- “Come onto our group.” FN: -- we were just waving to them, “Bye,” you know. And I remember sitting next to one of the Young Lords, and he called himself Che because he says the police were after him, and he didn’t want to say his real name. And we’re in the picture. He’s in the picture with me and -- JJ: Oh, that’s him? Okay. FN: Maybe I should’ve brought that book or -- it’s all worn out. JJ: No, you can bring it here later. We’ll get that later. FN: But what really, really caught my eye was you. [01:04:00] JJ: Cut this. (laughs) FN: No, you can’t cut this. I had never seen a human like you. I mean, you were white, and your features were Negroid, and then you had blue eyes. And then with the purple beret that you wore, I just -- “What the hell is this,” you know? (laughter) I mean, it was almost repulsed, and then attraction at the same time. It was an incredible -- I don’t know. To me, it was the highlight of the whole Denver conference. And of course, probably a lot of other women fell for you at the same time, but that’s what I remember very significantly. Later on in talking to -Iris Morales? JJ: In New York? FN: Uh-huh. JJ: Yeah, Iris Morales, okay. FN: Uh-huh. She said that [01:05:00] at the heighth of -- and I remember there was -- 36 �JJ: Because she was there too. I didn’t know that until today. FN: -- fist fights because you had the nationalists fighting the internationalists, and the concept was the class struggle. And the ones from Berkeley were more exposed to the third world concept of class struggle, (Spanish) [01:05:25] then you had the other ones that were real Mexicanos. “Oh, no, we have to stay with (Spanish), [01:05:28] and our women have to be with us,” and you know, that kind of thinking, but that happened. And what was the worst part is, again, the ingroup, the limiting, the exclusiveness that comes around. And Iris says that she had forgotten or maybe put it out of her mind because it was so painful to think about it or even try to think about it that the Young Lords were told to get [01:06:00] rid of the brothers that were dark. JJ: Okay, and let me just make sure that we get this. Iris Morales is from the -- FN: From the New York -- JJ: -- New York Young Lords, okay. FN: And she -- JJ: And now, you said about getting rid of the brothers that were dark -- FN: That were Black, that looked -- JJ: Who was told that? FN: The Young Lords from New York. JJ: Oh, were told to get rid of the -- FN: Or get them out of the conference because they weren’t the right color. They were too dark. JJ: Oh, at the conference, you said? 37 �FN: Denver conference. JJ: Oh, I didn’t know that there was some -- okay, so there was -- FN: And she said that -- JJ: Because there was two conferences. Maybe they were at the second one. FN: Oh, maybe that was the second conference. JJ: They were at the second conference because the first one, I think, was maybe Chicago Young Lords at that time. FN: Did you guys have any -- JJ: But I mean, she was there too. Like you said, she was there, but then there was the next -- we went to the second conference there the following year in ’69. So we did go to that, and then there was one in ’68. Was there -- FN: I don’t remember that one in ’68. JJ: Okay, but maybe that was in ’70 that they went to. FN: Mm-hmm. [01:07:00] So that was just an example of, you know, how limited our views are that Iris said, “You know, how could we tell our Black brothers to leave the conference?” And (Spanish); [01:07:13] you know, brown, or -- JJ: Yeah, I wasn’t aware of that. So that happened in -- FN: That happened. JJ: -- what, probably the ’70s? FN: Probably. JJ: And again, I’m not sure if that -- FN: But Iris could bring it up. JJ: But she did say that that happened? 38 �FN: Yeah, so they left. They all left. JJ: But who was telling ’em to leave the conference? FN: I guess the leaders who were organizing the conference. She could tell you more, but the -- JJ: Okay. Like you said, there’s racism within our communities. FN: There’s racism within the family. I mean, when you have a child that’s lighter, you’re going to -- you know, it happens. You know, the one that light is always told how beautiful she or he is compared to the darker ones. JJ: Right, [01:08:00] that is -- FN: But that’s what I mean. We carry the scars so deep. JJ: Right, because my mother was excited. She says I’m going to be a lawyer because I’m light-skinned, and I told her, “Well, when they go to court...” (laughs) But -- FN: Uh-huh, you went to court too. So yeah, that’s what Iris remembers, and I -- JJ: And the conference was very -- you know, it impacted us. How did it go for -- FN: Oh, we came back as MEchA, which was, in a way, a good concept because it was uniting all of the school organizations in the universities. And at the same time, it started taking away the autonomy. You know, if you’re moving your fingers, you don’t have to move your feet and vice versa. But when it’s all under one control of heading, everybody’s [01:09:00] got to move, and you got to balance it. You know, “Yes and no, yes and no.” But what happens is the MEchAs got controlled by more of the administration coming from the institution. JJ: Can you explain to me -- what is MEchA? I mean, what is it? 39 �FN: MEchA’s Movimiento Estudíantil Chicano de Aztlán. JJ: Aztlán, okay. And so you came up with that concept, or other people -- FN: No, we went back with that concept of the -- JJ: But why? Was there a MEchA group there already, or no? FN: No, we were MAYA. JJ: You were MAYA, but you turned into MEchA. FN: Uh-huh, and then there was -- JJ: So MAYA turned into MEchA? FN: Uh-huh. All of the autonomous organizations in the universities had their own names like -- JJ: So MEchA was a coalition name? FN: Mm-hmm, yes, like an umbrella. JJ: Like an umbrella, yeah, okay. FN: But at the same time, they get -- JJ: So what were some of the other groups? What other -- FN: You know what? I don’t remember, but -- JJ: Okay, but there were a lot of [01:10:00] autonomous groups -- FN: Mm-hmm, there was a lot of the -- JJ: -- and then MEchA became the umbrella? FN: Mm-hmm. But the autonomous groups were, I think, more united in our concept of political consciousness, collective consciousness. Later on with MEchA, it becomes more watered down, and maybe because of the times too, you know. JJ: Collective consciousness. What does that mean? 40 �FN: Collective consciousness? That all of us wanted to do good for the greater, and - JJ: It becomes watered down as that -- FN: Watered down to that -- it becomes more under the control of institutionalized administration. You know -- JJ: So the school itself? FN: -- now, it’s limited. “No, you can’t strike. No, you can’t protest.” It was like a -- JJ: So the schools come in, they give you a little money, and then they start to intrude? Or am I putting words in your mouth? FN: No, actually, MEchA -- [01:11:00] well, it’s a way of getting funds from the school too, you know, but -- JJ: So -- go ahead, I’m sorry. [What were you saying?]? FN: No, I just think that to some extent, it got weakened when it became MEchA in general, you know, as opposed to giving everybody their autonomy. And yet, having that understanding that we are all there to bridge from higher education to the community -- because one of the strongest concepts we had was to always keep that bridge open and enforced where the community and the higher echelons of education have that connection. You know, but MEchA seemed to lose weakness along with everything else, though, because look at what happened in the late ’60s and the ’70s after all of that protesting of civil rights and stuff. We did get more opportunities. We were able [01:12:00] to progress. I mean, I was able to get a job. Now, some people have master’s, probably even PhDs, and they can’t find a job. So, you know, things seem to get worse, and 41 �you know, the education has slacked off. And I’m talking about not just classroom education, but education of the collective consciousness where we keep together, you know, that commonality of doing social justice. So -JJ: And it was vibrant at that time. FN: Oh, it was at its heighths because of the Civil Rights Movement. It had such an impact. And you know, there’s a book by bell hooks that I have not read, but that I have heard of. She explains how the hippie movement -- [01:13:00] that was very significant for me. It also had a very big impact on me because it was talking about even closer to Mother Earth style that I think we all need. But somehow, it started getting very -- the Civil Rights Movement had that approach of, you know, doing things under nonviolence. Cesar Chavez was incredibly strong in that, you know, to bring social justice -- JJ: And you said you remember him. FN: Oh, yeah. I mean, he led a lot of people, but I’m just talking about in general of -what happened to our movement is that drugs completely invaded every single organization down to the communities, and then the image of the (Spanish) [01:13:52] started taking over. You know, from the civil rights, it went into -- the Black Panthers came from there, the Brown Berets, [01:14:00] and it was like this big, macho stance that it became so testosterone. You know, we started adopting this imbalance within the movement that could’ve been more progressive if we had kept balance with what you can call feminine energy or that energy that Cesar Chavez had or that Gandhi had or Mother Teresa had. You know, that energy of nurturing was sort of pushed to the side, and this other 42 �forcefulness took place that went along with the institution that we have in government, you know. JJ: So you felt that this new movement that was being created, the New Left, the Brown Berets, the Black Panthers, the Young Lords, and all that -- FN: Later -- JJ: -- was just a macho movement. [01:15:00] And -- FN: Uh-huh, became a macho movement, and I’m not saying it was that consciously. I’m saying that because we lack education and critical analysis. Critical analysis is so essential to the way we act because you start saying, “Well, wait a minute. What did I do?” Again, you know, “If I do this today, how is it going to affect seven generations ahead?” We don’t think like that, so the fact that you come out as a big macho and forceful -- you know, what is this effect going to have on your children, on elderlies looking at you on television or a movie or whatever? We really have to understand what we’re doing. And of course, we’re going to make mistakes, you know, but when you’re educated, it helps a little bit more. And I’m not saying that you get educated in [01:16:00] higher institutions. I’m saying education on your own where you explore, where you read on your own, where you even hold book clubs; study groups, which is about the same. But where you understand yourself, how you’re going to affect others, how it’s a global, you know, village -- I mean, I just learned about the Gregorian time and the 13 moons, that the ancients used to have a 13-month moon calendar. And it was turned into a 12-month which became a machine for making money. Twelve months, 60 minutes -- that’s what we live by. “How much money am I going to 43 �make every hour,” instead of seeing the cycle of the moon is between [01:17:00] women’s hips, you know? And that 13-month was -- you knew that the cycle of the moon moved in 28 days completely, and you were in rhythm with the cosmos. I mean, now we have to have special classes to connect us to the cosmos, you know? Take a yoga class and, you know, go over there on the other side of the world to do mantras or meditation. We all had it; it was part of our nature. This is going back to the Indigenous understanding of respect and love for nature. I told you I can talk forever. JJ: No, you’re doing fine. FN: Did you -- JJ: So -- FN: -- want a break? JJ: It’s up to you, but I don’t -- FN: No, I don’t. Watch out for that. JJ: Okay, so what about the women that were involved? There were women in the Panthers. There were women in the Brown Berets. [01:18:00] There were women in the Young Lords. FN: The Young Lords. JJ: And the -- FN: Well, you probably have a good idea. It’s that they probably felt left out, and they became a meat market. You know, it was a place to go -- yeah, you became a Brown Beret, but look at all the women that are going to come to you. (laughs) Or they have the same -- women love men in uniform whether it’s a prison 44 �uniform or a Brown Beret or a police or -- I don’t know. That’s a saying. I guess it applies to everybody in a uniform, (Spanish) [01:18:36] the lack of the respect of women taking leadership, I think, was one of the downfalls. And it continues to be a downfall because you don’t see women that are for the common good in leadership positions. Most likely, you will see women [01:19:00] as heads of -(Spanish) [01:19:01] COEs or people that are head of corporations? What -JJ: CEOs? FN: CEOs, uh-huh. And they have done testing where these women have more testosterone than the men because they have had to fight in this greedy, masculine, profit-making world, you know. They have built up more testosterone than men, and so this is the kind of woman you have in lead positions. But you don’t have that nurturing, and any man that has this nurturing is considered soft. I mean, I even remember Cesar Chavez being criticized because he was too soft. He wasn’t strong and brutal and demanding, you know. He was a soft, nurturing, inclusive -- he was incredible because I didn’t realize until a year ago that one of his favorite songs was [01:20:00] De colores. And I always thought that -- well, to me, it’s not a very romantic song. You know, most likely, I would think of it a song for kids, but to him -- from what I understand, these women that worked very, very close to him -- it was inclusive of everyone in the struggle for workers’ rights, for the dignity of workers. JJ: Because De colores means “Different colors”? FN: Everybody, and that is amazing to -- JJ: Like the colors of the rainbow. We had a rainbow coalition, so... 45 �FN: And I think that if it hadn’t have been for my understanding of what the United Farm Workers were at that time, I would have been probably very much spaced out of it completely, out of the movement, because you saw a lot of this aggressiveness, [01:21:00] a lot of disrespect, drugs. Then getting into the same pattern that exploiters get into -- you know, making money and to hell with everybody else, or just focusing on the nuclear family and to hell with everybody else; putting away the elders and, you know, having no respect for them. So the United Farm Workers, even though it’s not as strong as it used to be, had one of the greatest impacts. And probably one of my biggest foundations is -- because you could say I got to see Christ in action, you know, and that was Cesar’s image. Because when I left my house, one of my vows to myself was that I was never going to get mixed up with a Mexicano because of [01:22:00] my father’s role in my life. I said, “Man, these Mexicanos are not good, you know?” So when I saw Cesar Chavez, it was unbelievable that a man in such big power -maybe he didn’t recognize his power. Maybe he did, but he didn’t abuse it, and to me, that was so incredible. And I had that opportunity to be maybe -- oh, my God, I sat next to him, so I will go back to that story. When Sylvia and I used to hitchhike, we were going to San Francisco to party with my cousin who was in the Third World Movement, right, one of the leaders. And I remember I had these pink, plastic, hard rollers because we were going to go party, and we were outside of this little town called [Yuha?] at a gas station. It was dark. It was about [01:23:00] probably ten o’clock at night, and so I’m in the bathroom. You know, we had stopped at this bathroom, and we’re going to get out back on the 46 �freeway and start hitchhiking again. And she says, “Cesar’s here,” and I thought she was talking about some guy at San Diego State. I said, “Oh, that guy! Can he get away from us,” or something like that. So anyway, she’s serious now. She says, “No, it’s Cesar Chavez.” I said, “What?!” You know, I couldn’t believe it, so I walk out there. And sure enough, they saw us. You know, we were coming out of the bathroom, (laughter) and I had this -- you know, they’re bright pink rollers, hard plastic. And so, you know, I got so embarrassed because we had been in Delano, and had been there helping out with the boycott with [?]. And I think, you know, we helped wherever we could. You know, we had gone with the [Regretas?], who were very, very strong [01:24:00] as organizers and everything else. They were very influential there, so I was afraid that he was going to recognize me, but I guess, you know, he had too many people. He didn’t, right, but he sent one of the guards over, and he says, “Cesar wants to talk to you.” (laughter) I didn’t want to go because I was so embarrassed that the only reason we were out hitchhiking was not to do any work for the common good. We were out there to party. And so he said, “Well, what are you doing,” and I lied to him. I said, “I have a very sick aunt in Fresno that I’m going to go see.” I don’t know if he swallowed that story or not, but I sat in the backseat. I remember sitting in the backseat, and my friend, I think, also -- they had two guards and two dogs, or one dog. I don’t remember. And I remember I questioned him about [01:25:00] nonviolence. I questioned him about the Black Panthers, the violence, nonviolence, and he was, you know, very calm, very patient. And one of the things I remember him talking -- because he used to say 47 �stories are very simple to the people. And I know this because of the women that I have connected with in Coachella that he used to tell stories to be able to grasp the people’s attention at a very folk level. And he says, “I’m a leader, and I’m going up the mountain.” He says, “But when I get to the top, I can’t continue down because they will lose sight of me. I have to stay very close,” and so, you know, that’s the way he would explain it. He couldn’t do anything without the approval or acceptance or the [01:26:00] belief of the people that were supporting his philosophy. JJ: What do you mean, close to the people? You mean that was his important [thing?] -- FN: And there was no way you could just lash out in front like a big egotripper. JJ: But you were challenging his nonviolence. You mentioned the Panthers and that. FN: Yeah, because I was telling him -- JJ: Was that your frame of reference, or...? FN: Well, because people had always said, “Oh, you know, he’s too soft, and you know, we need people out there that really know how to knock teeth out and --” JJ: So at one point, you did believe in that? FN: Well, no, I would hear -- JJ: Oh, you would hear it. FN: -- and I would question, and I would think, “Well, why?” JJ: I mean, because the Panthers were more into self-defense. They weren’t really promoting violence, but -- 48 �FN: Mm-hmm. But then again, it’s a lack of education, and on a personal basis, you know these images that came across as very egoistic and very macho. [01:27:00] Look at Chicago when they arrested those seven guys and -- who was it, the guy that was the Black Panther? JJ: Oh, Bobby Seale, okay. FN: No, I don’t think it was Bobby Seale. JJ: Yeah, you mean the Chicago Eight trial? FN: Yeah, it was -- JJ: Yeah, Bobby Seale was the eighth person. FN: But he didn’t want to cooperate with the other ones. JJ: Right, he felt it was important to be separated because of -- he was being treated differently. He was an African American being treated different. He felt that, you know, because of the -- FN: See, but the way that comes out is that -- JJ: We actually were taking people downtown when he was there. FN: Again, a lack of education because the way it comes out on the media is that he just didn’t want anything to do with whities. JJ: No, absolutely not, because I remember the Panthers had a rainbow coalition. We were part of that, and so was the Young Patriots. FN: (Spanish)? [01:27:55] JJ: Hillbillies were part of that, (laughs) so -- FN: See, but -- 49 �JJ: [01:28:00] -- hillbillies wearing the rebel flag and all that of the South on their field jackets -- FN: Confederates? JJ: The Confederate flag on their field jackets were part of the rainbow coalition that Fred Hampton of Chicago -- Bobby Lee also -- organized at that time. So like you said, the message was not that [race was?] -- FN: The media portrayed them as very brutal and uneducated, and of course, the drugs infiltrated everywhere. They connected them with drugs. JJ: And you said a real good point there. The media [dug?] into that. The media, you know -- FN: So the questions that I got to ask -- JJ: Okay, so -- FN: -- Cesar Chavez was, well, how did he feel about the image of, you know, this force. And maybe not in those exact words, but I was fishing for understanding. JJ: So you’re anti-macho, but you’re still saying, [01:29:00] “How come you’re not a macho?” FN: Because I was fishing for understanding. JJ: Oh, you were fishing, so you were playing devil’s advocate at that point, which -- FN: Yeah, well, I guess to some extent -- JJ: At that time. FN: -- but he was very staunch in his explanations. I mean, he never felt challenged by me in no way. You know, here, I had these big old pink rollers on, probably -I don’t know. I just -- 50 �JJ: Okay. Do you think that also maybe his movement was more mature than these other movements that were just beginning, or -- I’m putting words in your mouth. FN: Yeah, well -- JJ: Could that have been it too, or...? FN: -- I’ll tell you I thought there was more discipline, more respect, more dignity, and there was less of this brutal image that came out. You know, [01:30:00] (laughter) with the Brown Berets and with the shades, you know, they came out - JJ: Yeah, that’s how it was. I mean -- FN: You never saw Cesar Chavez do that. JJ: -- we had people like that too because actually, what I meant -- for example, the Teatro Chicana, right? I mean, in the beginning of any organization, any movement, you know, there’s a lot of mistakes made. You know, it takes a while before it gets mature to be more inclusive, so tell me about the Teatro Chicana. How did that form? FN: You don’t want to -- JJ: Because that was -- FN: -- take a break? You don’t want to get a more comfortable chair? JJ: Yeah, I could take five seconds, so a second with the -- (break in audio) JJ: Okay, so as -- FN: So in general, I think what I want to emphasize is education is not just learned in a university or a classroom setting, that education is learning [01:31:00] the 51 �inside of -- for example, I had no knowledge about the Black Panthers being so expansive in their minds to be inclusive because the image I said that was portrayed was that they were very macho, very into just Black people. That was very, very strong. And everything else, you know, that is happening in our movements is to emphasize the need to be critical and analytic (Spanish) [01:31:39] we get a certain image of -- to understand, we really need to go further than what is presented in front of us. And that goes for everything, so to be an educated person is beyond a university credential. [01:32:00] It’s being a savant, and to be able to intuit -JJ: Savant? FN: Savant in understanding the need for people’s emotions to be interpreted in a more objective way, to have respect for intuition or your gut feelings of certain things that you don’t understand, but to explore it further; or go with your gut feeling so that you’re able to progress. JJ: Okay, so you said -- FN: So now, what happens -- one of the things that was always put out to us by the macho mentality, and I’m talking about also women in the movement, was that we were not [01:33:00] the same as the women’s liberation movement going on at that time. And -- JJ: What do you mean? FN: That, you know, we didn’t want to be identified with them, and yet, you know, they were women. We all have vaginas in common, right, going back to the common foundation. But the fact that we were a little bit more open -- we were 52 �very glad that most of the Anglos at San Diego State got the first women’s studies department recognized in the nation at San Diego State University. JJ: At San Diego State? Okay. FN: And that was outstanding, and they did have an influence on us because we were saying, “Yeah, you know, we’re all women,” and we had something very, very common there. But this whole thing was this fear. “Oh, you know what? You’re not a woman liberator. You’re not a feminist,” you know, so what is a feminist? What is the origin of feminist? [01:34:00] It means “minus faith”. Fe, faith; minus, feminine. That jump came about in the Inquisition. JJ: Oh, really? FN: When the Catholic church was dominating the Indigenous spirituality or religions, women that had knowledge of medicine, women that were independent and very intelligent, were labelled feminist because they had no faith in a patriarchal institution. So they were hunted down, tortured, burned, killed, and murdered in massive amounts to wipe out that connection to nature, that connection to the intelligence of being able to measure. Menstruation [01:35:00] is so much connected to the 13 moons in a year. It’s connected to mental -- mind, moon. It’s connected to Medusa, the goddess which stands for medicine measurement. And women of those days learned how to use -- just like today, except now it’s put in a pill form, and it’s more institutionalized from a college. Whereas at one time, it was in the hands of women who knew how to use these medicines and became savants in how to cure, how to alleviate pain in labor, but they became witches. And even the term witch means “wit”, that you had wit. And under 53 �dominating male supremist patriarchal religions, women [01:36:00] are not supposed to be intelligent. I mean, even in the Bible, Eve wanted to have intelligence, so she ate an apple. So from there, you know, we have our foundation. Whether it’s very sanctioned, the sacred and whatnot, (Spanish) [01:36:17] had that to go by. You know, “Hey, wait a minute. In the Bible, you came from my rib,” and I’m going like, “You can shove that Bible wherever because I’m not going to accept that.” So we have that foundation already in the Chicano movement, and this struggle for being respected, for having dignity -because, you know, if you enjoyed sex, you were a slut. If you didn’t have sex, you were labeled frigid or a lesbian. I mean, we got to a point where we said, “So what? You know, [01:37:00] whatever you think -- what I’m doing is I’m working towards a common good. That’s what’s important. That’s my action, and whatever you want to label me because of your personal macho attitude also coming from other women who...” Then, you know, it’s our action that’s going to speak out, so we didn’t completely go with the women movement. I mean, we stayed within our organization, but at the same time, without knowing, we had to build the space. And I think that’s why the Teatro emerged because one of the things that -JJ: The Teatro Chicana, it was called? FN: The Teatro Chicana, but it was actually -- JJ: It had different names, right? Did -- FN: Actually, all of us were Chicanas, and the Teatro comes from a bigger group because the women at that time in MEchA, you know, were feeling this sense of 54 �disunity and disrespect, so we band together. And one of the things -- we said, well, we needed to have a conference where we could [01:38:00] tell our mothers who we were, what we had become, and what we saw. And even though we didn’t want to be in the tradition of our mothers, we still wanted them to know where we were going. And also, at the same time, we developed study groups. The Woman Question was one of the books that we read. JJ: Oh, you did read The Woman Question? FN: And then from the women’s movement, we learned about the origin of the family state and private property, which gives you a good background on a different view of how all of this happened. You know, the concept of private property, the government, the inferiority of women as a whole -- so it’s a very good book that became a basis, you know, of our understanding. And we had study groups, and then we developed into our -- JJ: What was the study group or reading group? FN: A study group was where we all read the same material, [01:39:00] and then we rehashed it. “I have a different view. You have a different view,” so we try to put all these views to make sense of where our understanding takes us to have some kind of common ground. And so one of the main things is that we wanted to include our mothers, which became later on -- now as I read from an article, it was very significant because nowhere in the women’s movement did they bring the mothers into the changes that they were going through. JJ: Was this when the play -- FN: Chicana Goes to College? 55 �JJ: Chicana Goes to College, okay. FN: You know, first, we had to separate from the family, the mother, the box of being in a family and not moving from there. And then we move into the university setting, which we find is conflict with trying to adjust because we came from -- we were not college-prepared [01:40:00] students, so we were struggling in college, you know. A lot of us dropped out. And okay, then we get into the Chicano movement, and oh, my goodness -- slap in the face, you know? But we stayed, and we struggled -- JJ: What do you mean, slap? FN: Well, because of the disrespect. Like I said, you know, men could have all the sex, and they were not downgraded. But if women had a lot of sex, they were downgraded. Well, why? You know, what is this all about? So we were all in the social justice movement. We were all there for equality, you know. What was the double standard being played out, you know, within our social justice movement? So the Teatro came out of a need to -- I guess what they call today these fancy terms like a third space or sacred space maybe [01:41:00] where you can express yourself; (Spanish), [01:41:03] your doubts. Because I mean, like I said, you can be one of the most educated people, but you still make mistakes. And we will always be learning, but it’s that experience of working through errors and mistakes. It goes beyond what is learned in books, you know? It’s the experience of walking hand-in-hand with education and experience, so the Teatro became a sacred space, and I didn’t know it then. I didn’t understand the importance of it. 56 �JJ: Well, how was it formed? I mean, what was the -- FN: Well, one of the -- JJ: -- first meeting of the Teatro? FN: -- first things that I always remember is Delia Ravelo, who was the cofounder. JJ: Okay, and who was she? FN: Delia Ravelo was about two years younger than I was. She came in in 1970. I came in in 1968, [01:42:00] so I was already mature, you know. JJ: Came into the school? FN: San Diego State University. And I remember her being with [a black rose on?], and really, she didn’t want to look at me. But I sort of searched for her, and when she looked at me, it was like some kind of connection that I couldn’t understand at the time. But I knew that there was this need for these younger women to connect somehow with those of us that knew a little bit more, and then on, you know, we worked in the organization. We mopped and we swept, but we also wanted to do speeches, you know. We also had a mind -- JJ: What organization? FN: MEchA. JJ: Oh, okay, so she came into MEchA, and you met in MEchA. FN: Yeah, we were all in it, and we were very active. JJ: So the Teatro came out of MEchA? FN: Yeah, the Chicanas came out of MEchA. The Chicanas was a bigger [01:43:00] group of women. The Teatro came out of this group of women. JJ: Of the Chicanas? 57 �FN: Of Las Chicanas of San Diego State. JJ: So you have Chicanas that are separate from the other (Spanish)? [01:43:10] FN: Which other (Spanish)? [01:43:13] JJ: Because you said the Chicanas were a separate group of MEchA. FN: Well, Las Chicanas were the members of MEchA who were female, and so -- JJ: As the -- FN: -- from there, we formed the conference. And that conference is where the Teatro emerged from. JJ: Okay, from MEchA -- FN: Because (Spanish). [01:43:35] JJ: Okay, I’m thinking MEchA -- FN: (Spanish) [01:43:40] -- JJ: -- is a woman’s group, but it’s not a woman’s group. It’s everyone. MEchA’s everybody. FN: The female members of MEchA -- JJ: Okay, the female members of MEchA. FN: -- at that time. And maybe some of them weren’t even members of MEchA, but - JJ: Yeah, some of the -- FN: -- we sort of magnetized towards each other. JJ: So the female members of MEchA [01:44:00] organized this Teatro? FN: No, organized the conference. JJ: Organized the conference. 58 �FN: And from the conference, some of the women wanted, through poetry, dancing, song, Teatro, a history panel, to do this for our mothers. So all of us were in the same group, but we divided into doing different types of presentations for our mothers. We became the Teatro because -- JJ: And what was the first things that you did as a group? FN: We did Chicana Goes to College, which is the female -- JJ: The play? FN: Yeah. JJ: Can you describe something of the -- FN: She leaves the house. She gets into the university, conflicts with the university and the superstructure and racism, and then the third stage is inequality within her own movement [01:45:00] for social justice. So that was the foundation of Teatro Chicana, although I thought that it was only going to be for our mothers. But the ones that moved it forward was Delia Ravelo because as always, we were always very active in MEchA. We were organizing a recruiting conference. It’s an annual conference -- I still think it goes on -- where you get buses for all the high school students around San Diego and ship them into a big auditorium in San Diego, and then talk about recruitment and the opportunities of college and whatnot. So she says, “Well, we should do that (Spanish) [01:45:38] for the recruitment conference,” and I said, “No, that was for our mothers.” And then she says, “But it still applies because it’s pushing forward the need for education.” And so, you know, Delia Ravelo and Peggy Garcia were the ones that really pushed it, and from then on, you know, we kept [01:46:00] on. You 59 �know, then the book explains the stages of Teatro Chicana, which goes into Teatro Laboral, which goes into -JJ: Which book is that? FN: It’s called Teatro Chicana, edited by Laura Garcia, Sandra Guiterrez, and myself. JJ: Okay. That’s a recent book that came out, or...? FN: In 2008 -- JJ: Two thousand eight? FN: -- published by the University of Texas, and I guess this is where Laura comes in. JJ: Well, yeah. I mean, you can kind of describe it if you want to move [into it or?] -- FN: No, I think she can take over. JJ: Okay. Well, let me ask you then about the murals at the church. Okay, what -- FN: Well, the reason I went to Chicago -- I think I was 19 or 20, and I was going to go see you. I was going to go be with you, but that didn’t happen. (laughs) JJ: Okay. But I mean, how was that -- FN: Well, that’s part of the murals. So when [01:47:00] you and I did not become an item in more or less terms, then I still had three weeks’ vacation. And my plane ticket, you know, was for three weeks that I was going to stay in Chicago, and so since I was at that time already with the intentions of becoming a registered nurse, there was a clinic set up. And I remember -- JJ: In the -- FN: In the church, uh-huh. JJ: -- People’s Church? Okay. 60 �FN: And so I started volunteering there. I said, “You know, just because you have a personal breakup in a relationship, what does that mean?” That’s sad, you know, but still, at that time -- to me, you know, you were my first revolutionary love, so I love -- JJ: Okay, but I don’t understand. How did you come to Chicago? What was the -- FN: Because of you. Because of our revolutionary love that we had through letters. JJ: But when did we meet? FN: We met in Denver, Colorado. JJ: Oh, the Denver, Colorado conference, okay. FN: Mm-hmm. And so I started volunteering [01:48:00] at the clinic, and I -- JJ: But did we establish a relationship in Denver, Colorado? I mean, I -- FN: We connected as long distance lovers. (laughs) JJ: Oh, okay, I see. FN: Yeah, we wrote letters, and I have one of your letters. JJ: Okay, so you definitely have proof, great. (laughs) FN: Yes, so -- JJ: Okay, so we connected. So we were writing letters? FN: Yes, uh-huh. JJ: At that point, okay. But then when you came to Chicago, I was married or -- I wasn’t married legally. FN: You were with another woman -- JJ: I was with someone else. FN: -- more or less. 61 �JJ: And that’s what happened. I was a clown. FN: That and whatever, but anyway, it was a disappointment. But still, you know, our love was bigger than just you and me, right, because we claimed our love for the people. JJ: For the movement, so -- FN: So I stayed around at the clinic and volunteered, and then I had the younger Young Lords -- I guess, you know, your peer group that used to hang around. It’s Cosmo and [01:49:00] Tarzan and -- JJ: Yeah, we had -- FN: -- [Comraddy?]. JJ: -- different levels of the Young Lord. We had a local branch, a state branch, and the national branch. FN: Well, I was just with the locals that hung around the neighborhood. And what was so strange is that the Latin Kings used to hang out -- JJ: They hung out there too, uh-huh. FN: -- a lot more than the Young Lords. JJ: Yeah, they hung out more on the street. FN: But the Young Lords, like I said -- Comraddy, Tarzan, Cosmo -- were around a lot, and so we started cleaning the place, you know, because after you stay a while, you say, “God, that’s messy,” you know? You start cleaning, so we were putting things away and throwing stuff away, and we came to this closet full of paints. And I told Cosmo or -- I don’t remember who it was -- Tarzan or someone, “Hey, what’s all this,” you know? “Oh, that’s paint that they use for the 62 �church.” I said, “Oh, isn’t this going to waste, or is it going to be used?” He says, “Oh, you know, well, we thought about putting a sign --” JJ: Well, [01:50:00] it came from the hardware store. It was a donation. FN: Oh, okay. “So we were thinking of putting a sign up, ‘The Young Lords’, in front of the church.” And I said, “Well, why don’t you guys do it? The paint’s here. Do it.” And so I think somebody did volunteer. I don’t remember who it was, but they were doing the letters so crooked. I said, “You know, I can do better than that, right?” Not that I was trying to put down the brother, but -- JJ: But you were an artist. FN: No, I wasn’t an artist. I mean, I loved artists -- JJ: You were -- FN: -- and I was going to school to become a registered nurse, but I always wanted to be an actor. And so the first one we did was Che Guevara, and I said, “Well, you know, I can do the print.” And they say, “Well, how about doing this?” You know, and so then -- JJ: And then Che Guevara was right by the door, and I think it said “Young Lords Organization” or “National Young Lords”, something like that. Do you have a picture? FN: Yeah, I have a picture of it. [01:51:00] And then from there, one time -- JJ: Lower it and hold it up to the camera there for -- FN: -- you showed up. JJ: Oh, you have a picture of the church back then too. 63 �FN: Yeah. This is how I looked when we met in Denver, Colorado. This is me talking at the Denver, Colorado conference. JJ: You spoke there also? Okay. FN: Yeah, a little bit. I don’t know where this picture is. JJ: But the picture of the church is -- I mean, if it’s showing the murals. There’s none with murals. FN: Yeah, these are the murals that Carlos Flores took pictures of. Otherwise, we would have no knowledge about ’em, but -- JJ: Actually, we have some photos too of the church. FN: Oh, yeah? JJ: Both Carlos and some of -- there’s a confusion of who was there. FN: Well, he was one of the main ones taking pictures at the time with a rinky-dinky camera. Oh, yeah -- JJ: There it is. FN: -- this is it, and it doesn’t look like Che Guevara. JJ: Okay, hold on one second. FN: But that was an attempt of the image at that time [01:52:00] to put forward. JJ: Okay, bring it up a little bit. Okay, there you go. Okay, so you painted Che Guevara and “National Headquarters Young Lords Organization”? FN: Yes, uh-huh. JJ: Okay, so you painted our -- FN: So then from there, I went on -- 64 �JJ: What do you call the sign of an organization in the front? Our logo. You just painted the -- that wasn’t our logo, but that was our -- FN: Uh-huh. I didn’t paint the one in the front of the church. JJ: You didn’t paint that big logo? FN: No, I didn’t. JJ: Oh, I thought that was you. FN: No, that was somebody else. JJ: Oh, so that was Peter Clark. Peter Clark was the other muralist, okay. FN: Yeah, no, I didn’t. I -- JJ: Okay, I’m sorry. I thought that was you. Okay, but you painted Che. FN: But again, I was so mad at you, okay? You came one time, and you said, “Oh, you should do this,” and so I sort of did follow it. I did Emeterio Betances, Lolita Lebrón -- JJ: That one was specific, I remember. FN: -- Pedro Albizu Campos, and then the last one -- I said, “I’m going to do one of myself.” Not myself specifically, but -- JJ: Adelita [01:53:00] de -- FN: -- Adelita de Aztlán. JJ: Okay, but I did tell you to paint the ones -- FN: Yeah, you went around one time, and you said, “I want you to do it.” But, you know, I was going to be flying out in a couple of days, and then I was so mad at you anyways, so yeah, I said, “No, I’m leaving, you know. I can’t do it,” or whatever. So you must have gotten somebody else to do it. 65 �JJ: Oh, you didn’t paint those? FN: Not the logo in front of the church, just everything on the side. JJ: So you put the -- FN: All of the murals on the side are mine. JJ: Okay, if you could put that close to the camera -- FN: But you can’t -- it’s not a very good picture. JJ: But if you put it close, you can see the -- FN: Yeah, all of these on the side, I did; five, actually. JJ: On the side of the church. FN: And the one on the front must have been by Peter Clark, you said? JJ: Yeah, Peter Clark was the other muralist. And if you put -- FN: (Spanish)? [01:53:44] JJ: Yeah, there you go. Leave it right there. Okay, so you painted those right there on the side of the church. FN: All on the side, Emeterio Betances -- JJ: Lolita Lebrón. FN: Lolita Lebrón -- JJ: And then -- JJ: -- and Pedro Albizu [01:54:00] Campos. JJ: Right, okay, because -- FN: And that came out of an attraction for you, all of those murals. But like I said, you know, I always understood my attraction to you -- that was my first revolutionary love, so it was bigger than just the two of us. 66 �JJ: Right, and [I couldn’t be?] -- FN: And the murals were that explosion into a bigger part of us, and that’s how they got done. JJ: Okay, we definitely appreciated it. They’ve had an impact for the community, and it, you know... FN: You know, I remember people used to stop and look at them, and they’d say, “Oh, she’s a gypsy.” They didn’t know who I was. “She’s a teacher that was --” JJ: Oh, while you were painting it, you mean? FN: Yeah. And then I remember people would feed me sometimes because I mean, geez, you know, I was there with nothing. And I got fed, you know, and then -- JJ: Because we had [01:55:00] food with the breakfast program and all that stuff -- FN: And then Hilda also -- JJ: -- so everybody kind of ate. Oh, you met Hilda at that time? FN: Oh, yeah, I was living with Hilda. I stayed with Hilda. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have had a place -- JJ: Oh, was it Hilda Ignatin, or another Hilda? An older woman or a younger -- FN: No, younger. She was -- JJ: Oh, Hilda -- FN: Yeah, Hilda. JJ: -- [Torres?]. FN: That’s how come I remember her so well because without her, I wouldn’t have had a place to stay. And she allowed me to stay there, and I could come and go as I pleased, you know, so that was very helpful. 67 �JJ: So I mean, you’re coming in there talking about image. You know, we were a gang. I mean, we didn’t incubate. We went right from the gang into the political group, so we made a lot of mistakes because -- FN: Oh, we all did. JJ: -- of that. Where other groups were able to sit back and do a study group or something, we just went right into that. But I mean, can you describe the -- when you first come here, [01:56:00] I mean, you’re expecting one thing, but you still saw those people working. How were they? I mean, we’re just right out of the gang, you know, but how did you see it? FN: Well, I know they had the slogans, right, because as soon as I left the airport when I got into Chicago, I got on a taxi. Get off the taxi, see you with another woman, and then there was a parade -- Puerto Rican Day, July. And all of the slogans -- everybody was well aware of Libre Puerto Rico and -- JJ: In the neighborhood, you mean? FN: Yeah, right there at the side of the church, people were organizing for the march. And all of these community -- like Cosmo -- JJ: Oh, so we’re having a demonstration as you come in? FN: And we march. JJ: And it’s about Free Puerto Rico? FN: Mm-hmm. JJ: Is it -- FN: But it was Puerto Rican Day. It was a big parade in Chicago, and [01:56:00] we didn’t have a license or permission to be in that parade, but there we were. 68 �JJ: We got in. That’s what I remember, right. FN: Uh-huh, and I mean, I said, “Dang,” you know? JJ: And we got in, and we’re talking about Free Puerto Rico, right? FN: Yes, uh-huh. JJ: Yeah, I remember [I had a girlfriend?], and this is probably [why you remember that one?]. So you came in right at that moment as we -- FN: And I was in the parade without permission from the authorities. JJ: (laughs) And we went right in. FN: Yeah, we were in there, so I knew that there was a lot of heart. There was a lot of poverty. There was a lot of ignorance, but there was this willingness to -- JJ: Poverty? What do you mean? FN: When I went to the store on the corner, the vegetables were bad, you know, to me. Coming from an agricultural rural community where they looked so beautiful, you know, I just thought, “Wow.” And then where I stayed with Hilda -- I mean, it was infested. I remember it [01:58:00] being infested with roaches, you know, because -- JJ: You’re talking about somebody else’s house now. (laughs) FN: Well, no, the apartments that people lived in -- very crowded, very dark, and you know, dingy. JJ: But was it in that community? FN: Uh-huh. JJ: Okay, so what -- 69 �FN: Yeah, I used to walk every day to the church to continue painting, and so I remember that. And then I remember that people don’t have access to recreation, so the hydrants were open, the water hydrants. JJ: So they were open. Yeah, I -- FN: And then one time, the police came and shut ’em off twice. And the third time, they showed up with billy clubs and paddy wagons, and people got arrested and everything. I mean, that was one of the first kind -- I mean, I was sort of shocked. I was barefooted because, you know, we had been going in and out of the water, and I had been painting, you know. And I just went to get my feet cooled off, and they had the congas. You remember everybody used to play the congas? And everybody [01:59:00] came out of their little what you call ratholes, I guess, or their little houses or places that they had. And all the children playing, dancing, and running, and the mothers, you know, gossiping -- I mean, it was very, very community, and all the congas were fabulous. You know, the heartbeat of that beautiful darkness was there, and yet -- you know, so much light and water and children running, and people in the community. And the third time when the cops showed up, they showed up with all of this force, you know, and they stood in a row. And, you know, I remember they started -- I said, “What are they going to do,” you know? And so they started charging, and somebody says, “Run!” Somebody grabbed me, and we were running through the alleys in broken glass. You know, I cut my feet and [02:00:00] everything. We were hiding behind trash cans, and I remember the cops coming and banging the trash 70 �cans looking for anybody, I guess, they could get a hold of. And people did get arrested that evening, so that was an eye-opener for me. JJ: But the community -- how did they feel towards the Young Lords? FN: Well, they all looked very at peace, and they were enjoying the congas. And they were enjoying whatever little scenery there was. You know, part of the murals were already done, little skinny trees that they had. JJ: So they’re hanging out by the mural and by the church outside in the summer? Okay, and then when -- FN: So that was a very different kind of atmosphere that I hadn’t experienced because first of all, you know, those hydrants had been turned off twice, and we weren’t [02:01:00] doing wrong, you know. But then there was so much comfort and so much delight in that fountain of water spurting everywhere, and everybody got wet. It was like a cleansing, refreshing -- and that’s all they could do. I mean, we couldn’t go in a boat cruise and, you know, be waited on. I mean, that was the heighth of entertainment recreation. JJ: So the Young Lords -- you didn’t see them marching all over the place formal or anything like that. Would you say they were formal or informal, or...? FN: Well, we were very infor-- I’m saying we because I was with them, and there was nothing really formal to be about. It was just everyday trying to survive, everyday existence. And you could say, well, that was very dull, but if you didn’t make that space or [02:02:00] you didn’t bring that inspiration, it was almost like a dead silence. But it had to come out of you to put out. 71 �JJ: Yet, people were cleaning the church, you were painting murals, and there was programs in the church. FN: Oh, yeah, people were coming in to be medically assisted. JJ: How would you describe the clinic there? FN: Well, it was attending the community. JJ: I mean, did it look like a regular clinic? FN: Well, I mean, I’ve seen better places, but they were doing their best. I think the guy that was working was Martha and Alberto. JJ: Alberto Chaviro, right. He was there at the clinic. FN: Very, very devoted people. I mean, just -- JJ: He was the master of health, yeah. FN: -- good people from the heart, you know? They just weren’t doing it to show off or -- JJ: And actually, he wasn’t Puerto Rican. FN: Yeah, he was Mexicano. JJ: So Chicago had other [02:03:00] Latinos, right, not just Puerto Ricans, although we were supporting independence for Puerto Rico. So Alberto Chaviro was Mexicano. FN: (Spanish) [02:03:11] Martha. JJ: (Spanish) [02:03:12] Martha, and there were others at the clinic. FN: And that’s how I got close to them because I worked at the clinic and -- JJ: You did work at the clinic? FN: Yeah, I volunteered. 72 �JJ: Okay, but see -- FN: I mean, remember, you and I didn’t continue, but I had the opportunity to invest more time in what was going on, definitely. It probably would’ve been the same whether I had been with you or not, but I was volunteering at the clinic. And that’s how we discovered the paint when we started cleaning other areas of that church; the basement or the kitchen or the closets. And, you know, that’s how we discovered it. JJ: But it wasn’t disrespectful. I mean, it was because I was with someone else at that time. I wasn’t being disrespectful to you or to what [02:04:00] we -- you know what I’m saying? FN: No. JJ: You didn’t take it like that, but I was trying to be respectful at that time. No? FN: I don’t know. (laughs) JJ: Okay, you don’t -- FN: I just know that -- JJ: Okay, well, it didn’t work out then. FN: -- yeah, you and I did not become an item like they say. But, you know, I knew that you and I were bigger than just us. I knew that. JJ: Okay, I appreciate that. Okay, so I’m just trying to describe the clinic because I think you’re very good at describing things. And I’m trying to -- you know, if you can describe not just the clinic, but I mean, how it functioned and -- what do you recall? 73 �FN: Well, I remember Alberto being the doctor. And of course, when a patient comes in, you take their blood pressure; you know, the elementary stuff that determines, you know, their condition further on. And the people felt, you know, [02:05:00] pretty comfortable going in there. And of course, the people that attended them, you know, like Alberto and Martha -- their hearts were in it, so I think that made a big difference in the way the program was run with the very little that we had. We had more love to give than anything else, but they did their best in those conditions. JJ: What about some of the other volunteers? FN: To tell you the truth -- JJ: What type of people were they? I mean, I -- FN: They were in their -- probably not credentialed, but they did the best they could. And I don’t remember too much, the other people, to tell you the truth, but the whole spirit of that clinic was to serve and not [02:06:00] for profit, not for greed. It was to serve at a human level. JJ: In fact, did anybody pay money to come to the clinic, or...? FN: I don’t think people had money to pay. JJ: So it was a free clinic? FN: Yeah, it was a free clinic. JJ: It was a free -- now, what about the breakfast for children program? That was run out of the church too. Were you familiar with that? FN: I really didn’t get to see that. JJ: So you didn’t work on that one? 74 �FN: No. JJ: Okay, but you did some there with the mural. They were talking about a daycare center at that time. Did you -- FN: No. JJ: No, you didn’t see that, did you? FN: No, I basically -- JJ: That was later because when you -- FN: -- was just at the clinic and stayed at the church. JJ: But you were there when it was just getting painted and started in the neighborhood clinic. They were painting the inside too. That’s why we got the paint. There were murals inside too, no? FN: I don’t remember seeing murals inside. JJ: Okay, that was Peter Clark. He put in -- FN: Yes, because then when I did the side, then the front came on later. JJ: [02:07:00] Oh, that came later. Okay, that’s the “Tengo Puerto Rico En Mi Corazón” sign, but you did Che. FN: Yeah, I did Che -- JJ: You definitely did Che. FN: -- and the other five murals. JJ: Yeah, you did five murals, okay, the other murals. Okay, you didn’t do the People’s Church one. There was a People’s Church one too. That was Peter? FN: Correct. 75 �JJ: Okay, all right. Okay, so you go back from there. And then where did you get involved after that? You’re still with the Teatro, or no? FN: Oh, yeah, the Teatro went on for 12 years after we got out of the college, and then we got into the community. And we were able to keep it for 12 years. And then after that, I moved up north, and of course, later come back and reconnect. But Delia and I never disconnected, Delia Ravelo, so that’s when the idea started brewing -- [02:08:00] and I guess Laura can tell you this. You know, she took a class, and she wrote this article about her participation or her days in Teatro, and people got very interested. And then Suzanne Oboler told her, you know, that that could be published. And then she showed up at a reunion, and then that’s when we all started getting the idea, “Well, we should all do the same and put a book together.” But of course, like everybody else has their dreams, Delia Ravelo and I were going to be writers. When her last child left from her house to go to college, that’s when we were going to start, but Delia got very sick with stage four cancer, and she struggled. She was able to -- JJ: She’s still alive, or no? FN: No. She was able to live another 18 months, and during that time, this idea started building up. She was able to write her story, [02:09:00] and I was able to help her because she was very debilitated. You know, but Laura actually started moving us sooner than what we expected because of that. But Delia passed away, and of course, you know, I was very angry because we were supposed to be writers, and her last child was going out of the house. But I will never -- she’s 76 �always with me. And from that first time that I saw her -- she’s always with me, well, in a way. (laughs) JJ: Okay, yeah. Well, thank you very much. END OF VIDEO FILE 77 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1320e625755122a54af70fdda9498da3.mp4 3ee752ee86225f6f0002d893b1c202d8 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Felícitas Nuñez vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Nunez_Felicitas Title A name given to the resource Felícitas Nuñez interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Nuñez, Felícitas Description An account of the resource Felícitas Nuñez lives in Bermuda Dunes, California. She and Delia Ravelo are co-founders of Teatro de Las Chicanas. The concept began when women of Movimiento Estudíantil Chicano de Aztlán (MEChA) brought their mothers to a university setting. There they organized a “Seminario de Chicanas” so that the mothers could understand what their daughters were going through. They wrote and performed “Chicana Goes to College.” And as a result of the audience’s positive response, Ms. Nuñez and Ms. Ravelo formed the Teatro de Las Chicanas. In the beginning years the core group consisted of just Ms. Ravelo and Ms. Nuñez, but many young women participated in the Teatro. Though working in San Diego, they were influenced by the leftist political ideals of the San Francisco Mime Troupe. They also united with the objectives of the Chicano Movement which included, among other things, social justice, bilingual education, and unionization. It also went further to address women’s equality. Several of the plays written and performed by the Teatro as well as the memories of their core members have been published in Teatro Chicana: A Collective Memoir and Selected Plays (2008). Most of the women who joined the Teatro came from farming towns throughout California and most of them were the first of their families to attend college. Around the early part of June 1969, Ms. Nuñez traveled to Chicago and met with the Young Lords who were transforming themselves from a local Puerto Rican gang into a human rights movement. One month earlier, the Young Lords had occupied the administration building of McCormick Theological Seminary (today on the campus of DePaul University) with 350 neighborhood residents and held it for an entire week. The Young Lords won all their demands, including $50,000 seed money for two free health clinics, $25,000 to open up the People’s Law Office which still operates today, and $650,000 to be invested by the seminary in low-income housing. One week earlier, the Young Lords had occupied a huge United Methodist Church on Dayton and Armitage, which they were in the process of transforming to become the Young Lords National Headquarters. The church would also house their Free Community Day Care Center, Free Dental and Health Clinic, and Free Breakfast for Children Program. All these programs were modeled after the Black Panther Party programs, of which the Young Lords had recently also connected via Fred Hampton’s Rainbow Coalition that Field Marshall Bobby Lee had also helped to broker. After the take-over of the church, the Young Lords quickly made amends. They did not want to disrupt any church service. When asked by the press if the Young Lords were going to allow the church to hold service, Mr. Jiménez quickly responded, “that it was not really a take over as the doors were now open to everyone, and that he and other Young Lords were planning on attending the services, being led by Rev. Bruce Johnson.” Some members of the congregation left but the Young Lords started meetings with the rest of the congregation, and together they designed the People’s Church symbol and produced a button that showed chains being broken. The Young Lords were cleaning up the church and adding needed paint when Ms. Nuñez arrived and volunteered to organize a group of muralists. Inside the church, Ron Clark and others were painting a mural of Puerto Rican history in the gymnasium. Outside, Ms. Nuñez’s group painted the Young Lords symbol of ”Tengo Puerto Rico En Mi Corazón” or “I have Puerto Rico in my Heart.” This lettering was in purple, with a green map of Puerto Rico, and a brown fist holding a rifle. (It had been designed by Ralph “Spaghetti” Rivera and Mr. Jiménez. The first buttons were printed at the Green Duc Button Company at Lake Street and Halsted). Other murals that Ms. Nuñez and her volunteers painted on the church walls were images of Adelita, Emiliano Zapata, Lolita Lebrón, and Don Pedro Albizu Campos. Someone else, probably Ron Clark, painted Che Guevara by the side entrance to the office, with the lettering “Young Lords National Headquarters.” These wonderful murals could not be overlooked in Lincoln Park. Not only were they featured in the news, but Lincoln Park residents would drive by and stop in to see the various programs and activities, making People’s Church the center of the Lincoln Park neighborhood. By then most Puerto Ricans had been forced out of Lincoln Park and there was also plenty of room for others to join the Young Lords Movement. Hispanos representing all Latino nations joined the Young Lords, including members of other minorities, middle class individuals, workers, the very poor, and students. The Lincoln Park Poor People’s Coalition was formed and Mr. Jiménez was voted president. The Northside Cooperative Ministry, of which Rev. Bruce Johnson was a prominent member, was also established during this period, and it supported the Poor People’s Coalition and the Young Lords. Just sixty days before Mark Clark and Fred Hampton were shot to death, assassinated in a predawn raid led by State’s attorney Edward Hanrahan, Rev. Bruce Johnson and his wife Eugenia were also discovered in their beds stabbed multiple times, in a cold case that remains unsolved. The Eulogy was given at the church with Young Lords fully participating, providing security and traffic control. There was also a spontaneous march through the Lincoln Park Community where Rev. Bruce Johnson worked with the poor. Ms. Nuñez left Chicago unaware of the impact she had made in the Puerto Rican community and in Lincoln Park. The Teatro Chicana did participate in the impromptu Lincoln Park Camp in Michigan in the 2000 and the Young Lords 40th Anniversary celebration in Chicago in 2008. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-08-25 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1d47852304adeca681255418b5a5f566.pdf 872e44295af7e3a29e0fb69deb5a05ab PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Luis Neris Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/14/2012 Runtime: 01:25:37 Biography and Description Oral history of Luis Neris, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on December 14, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, so like I said, we’re going to start with just some basic stuff. If you could -LUIS NERIS: Sure. JJ: -- tell me your name, and where you were born, and your, like, date of birth. LN: Okay. My name is Luis Neris, I was born in Chicago, May 24th, 1965. And, yeah -- JJ: Where were you born, please? LN: I’m sorry? JJ: Where you were born, you said? LN: In Chicago. JJ: But I mean, where -- LN: Oh, hospital. It was Belmont Community Hospital. I don’t know if it exists anymore. (laughs) But, you know, we lived in -- you know, I’m just a product of some parents that came on that wave, came looking for jobs here. And (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- JJ: Tell me what your -- LN: -- here! JJ: Tell me your parents’ name, and -- LN: Papi is -- JJ: -- and where were you living at the time, when you were born? 1 �LN: Papi’s name is Luis Neris, also, Angel Luis Neris, and then Mami is Loida Gorgas. And they met here in Chicago. They married in -- [00:01:00] I was... You know, we lived on Halsted and Armitage, and every time we pass by the building, we don’t go by there much, I mean, it’s a different neighborhood from what I remember. And we lived right on the corner of Halsted and Armitage. 2022 North Halsted. Right across the street from that big old empty lot that I remember. And we lived there from -- JJ: People’s Park, we used to call that People’s Park. LN: People’s Park? I didn’t know that. (laughs) JJ: Yeah, it was. It used to be... LN: But we went to Santa Teresa Church, as a matter of fact, my wife and my kids still go there. We live way up on the north side now, by O’Hare Airport, but we still go there, because we still know some of the people from the neighborhood that still go there. Carmen Uvides still goes there, JJ: Oh, Carmen Uvides is still there? LN: [armen (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) is still there, she looks just as good as always. And, you know, I stay in touch with -- JJ: Who were some of the other people there? LN: Carmen Vasquez. [Fabian Pagan?] used to go there. [00:02:00] I think he retired and he moved to Florida, but there’s just, you know. And all these people, they know my dad, too. JJ: Yeah. And now, they were part of that Council Number Nine (inaudible) LN: They were there, yeah. 2 �JJ: Is that still existing, or (inaudible) LN: I don’t know about Council Number Nine. I don’t know if it exists. But yeah, they were always involved. And my grandfather was Francisco Marcano, and Paulita Marcano, they were my grandparents, and (inaudible). He’s the one that -- he organized a lot of -- he had an organization called Parents and Childrens, Padres y Hijos, and he had softball teams for adults, he started softball for girls, back, you know, now, I have my daughter playing on travel softball, but Marcano started some of those programs. And he started the Little League Baseball, as well, for, you know, he called it “La Liga ‘Pampers’.” (laughter) And I do have some of those photos, and I apologize I didn’t bring ’em with you, but I will make sure [00:03:00] you get ’em. Marcano, you know, we grew up on Halsted Street. You know, from there, we just moved down the street, and then, you know, we didn’t have money to buy property. Although my mom always wanted to buy. But my daddy, he’s always had this dream about coming to work here, make the money, go back to Puerto Rico. So he never invested, you know, and my mom wanted him to, but he just didn’t. But we always lived on Halsted, we rented -- JJ: I didn’t get his name and her name, your mom [or?] -- LN: Yeah, I said his name is Luis Neris, same as mine. JJ: Oh, [same as your name?]. LN: And then mami’s Loida. Loida Gorgas. JJ: Okay, no, that’s right, you’re right, I’m sorry. LN: And then we moved over by, it was Waller High School, right on Howe and Armitage. And we lived there for a while, but then we moved back to Halsted 3 �Street, I mean, and it was just -- I remember the neighborhood, and kind of, like, it was a lot of Puerto Ricans, and I remember in the summer, there was a pump JJ: What do you mean, a lot of Puerto Ricans? What do you mean? LN: Lotta Puerto Ricans living on the block. JJ: Lot, like [00:04:00] 40 percent, 30 percent? LN: Oh, no, no, I would say, like, a majority of them. I would say, like, 90 percent. I mean, when we lived on Halsted, Halsted and Wisconsin, and in the summers it was like, it was so nice, you see all these people outside, you know, just hanging out and talking. I mean, it was, after a hard day’s work they’re outside, and some people are playing the guitarra, I mean, I remember Perfecto Nieves playing the guitarra across the street, and then another foursome playing dominos, you know, while he played the guitarra, and the women over here talking, and the kids running all over the street. And in the summers, when it got really hot, I remember the water pump, right on Wisconsin and Halsted. They would put, like, a tire around it, with a board (laughs) so the water could shoot up, and somebody would, you know, come and open. I mean, Halsted Street is pretty busy now, but back then there wasn’t a lot of traffic, you know, and it was just... But that’s how I remember the neighborhood. [00:05:00] And then Marcano, I call him Marcano, but he pretty much raised my mom. He’s my mom’s stepfather. But that’s the grandfather I know. And he had all these organizations, and he had baseball leagues, and all the neighborhood kids played in it, it was Little League Baseball, he had the softball for girls. And he 4 �was always with a camera on. I mean, he would take a camera everywhere. And that’s when -- he would document so much, and it’s a shame that he’s not part of this piece, because he would have so much information. But before he passed away, he would tell me, he would say, “Hey, Luisi--” He called me Luisito, everybody in the family called me Luisito. And he’s like, “Mira, Luisito,” and he knew I was in school, and for whatever reason, he left everything to me. And I have all those tapes, and he left me a lot of pictures, and those are the ones that I didn’t bring. But I will make sure you get ’em, because I think they’re part of what you’re trying to docu-- what should be documented. [00:06:00] It’s a forgotten part. It’s a shame that it was just erased, but, you know, thankful that we have people like yourselves and [Grant?] and people who are interested in making sure that we don’t forget about what happened and how Puerto Ricans did live there, and... JJ: Why don’t you want us to forget it? LN: I think it’s important. I mean, it’s part of history. It’s important for people to know that we -- where we came from, where we lived, some of the struggles, I think, that a lot of -- my parents had... JJ: Like, what were they? LN: Well, you know, job unfairness. Just because of who they were, because they were Puerto Ricans. You know, I’m a little bit younger, but even now, I mean, I’ve had my experiences at work. I mean, I’m a government employee, and when I started -- JJ: [00:07:00] What do you do for the government? 5 �LN: I’m a federal investigator. JJ: Oh, okay. LN: Yeah. We investigate fraud against, you know, government programs. JJ: Oh, that’s good. That’s good. LN: And I’ve been doing that for a while, but, you know, and I can understand -- I mean, I see some of the stuff that I’ve experienced, and I can’t imagine what my parents, or even people back then, you know, experienced, as far as racial tensions or racial discrimination. It should be about who you are, not where you came from, not the color of your skin. I mean, Puerto Ricans come in all shapes and sizes and colors. Marcano, my grandfather, was Black. I mean, dark skin, afro. My grandfather, my dad’s father, was Black. I have a cousin who’s whiteskin, blue eyes, blonde hair. (laughs) I mean, they run the gamut, and I think it’s important that what happened in Humboldt -- not in Humboldt Park, in Lincoln Park, is documented, because [00:08:00] it’s gone. And we almost got pushed out. We almost didn’t, we did get pushed out, we got pushed west. I lived in Lincoln Park till 1991, ’92... JJ: Well, what do you mean, pushed out? Do you -- LN: Well, I think they kept getting pushed west. Prices -- JJ: How -- oh, prices. Oh. LN: Prices, rent prices were expensive. And the few Puerto Ricans who did buy, who had the property there, eventually sold, because they were -- some of them were not very well-educated. And they were smart enough to buy property, so if you buy a property, and I’m just throwing numbers out here, for 10,000 dollars, and 6 �then 10 years later, somebody comes and offers you 100, for them, it’s like, “Oh my God,” you know, “this is a good return on my investment, I’m outta here! Here, take my property!” And then that’s taken down, and then you build up a nice condominium, which is what started happening. And [00:09:00] so, either they got -- you know, a lot of people got bought out, if they had a building that was rented. “Sorry,” you know, “I sold the building,” and the new owner’s not gonna want these folks, because he’s gonna raise the rent, he wants it. And so a lot of the rents went up, properties were bought, and where else could you go? You had to go somewhere where you could afford to live. And I think people started migrating west. Wicker Park, you know, all those neighborhoods. And a lot of Puerto Ricans ended up in Humboldt Park as a result. I can’t go back any further than that, because I was born in the ’60s, but I do remember that. I do remember going to school at Newberry School, I went to Newberry, and then I eventually went to Waller -JJ: What was that like? What was Newberry like? LN: Newberry was a mix. It was, you know, it was a hood! (laughs) You know, you had Puerto Ricans and you had Blacks, and you had your other Hispanic, you had some Mexicans, but yeah, that was the school. I mean, [00:10:00] and it was kinda like -- JJ: It was a “hood,” what do you mean? What do you mean? LN: It was a neighborhood, where, you know, it’s just a term that we use, and... JJ: I know it has meaning to it, I’m just trying to find out what it means to you. 7 �LN: To me, the meaning that I give it is, it’s like, mi casa. You know? It’s where I grew up. It’s my neighborhood. And, you know, (laughs) “hood” is short for neighborhood, but that’s where, I believe... That’s what I call it. My “hood,” is because that’s where I grew up, that’s where I lived for most of my young life. And that’s where Newberry was. Newberry, I remember the clínica, right, on Halsted. It was a Infant and Welfare Society. And right next door there was a big ol’ empty parking lot. Not empty. It was a parking lot for the clinic. And right next to that was, Marcano had this club, this nightclub. JJ: Right. ’Cause there was Planned Parenthood, they [00:11:00] put that up later. LN: I think, yeah, that was much later. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) But that wasn’t Marcano. Marcano (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: No, that was not Marcano. JJ: So he had, like, a social club? LN: He had a social club. And these pictures that I have, he gave them to me, you know, there’s pictures of that club, there’s pictures of people you may even know. He has got video -- I brought it, because I wanted you to have it. He gave it to me before he passed away, wanted to make sure I kept it. ’Cause he always said, “I know you’re gonna do something good with it.” And I couldn’t get rid of ’em, you know, I was going through it the other day, and he’s got notes in there, you know, it’s like, stuff that he would write, and he... JJ: Now, you saw some of it, or...? 8 �LN: Yeah, exac-- You know, he would take the video and then he would make us sit down and watch this thing. And I remember, you know, he would put the reel-toreel, and we would sit there, and it was kind of cool because it’s like, you know those old movies where you see the (imitates a sound effect) (laughs) and you could see, there no sound, but you can hear that. That was the sound, I remember. And it’s all black and white. And I would see these movies over and over and over, and sometimes, you know, there are [00:12:00] some of them of us, when we were kids, and he would document us, and then, he would document everything. I mean, he would document whatever parade he had, excuse me, whatever event he had, he would take pictures, he had it all. And my grandmother always got mad at him, ’cause he would always store this stuff, and it would just, like. And it would start off as a little bit here, and then it would grow, and then he would move it (inaudible). I mean, it just expanded. And a lot of the pictures that he gave me, after he passed away, I made a video of him and my grandmother, and some of the things -- some of the pictures that he gave me, and I put it on a DVD and I sent it to my grandmother and my mom. Kinda like, as a memory of him. There’s a lot of pictures I didn’t put in there because, you know, there were other people that -- and I wanted it to be something of him. JJ: So we have pictures of him, too, then. LN: You do have pictures of him, you will have pictures of him. And I know when you see ’em, you’ll remember. And so, he gave me a bunch of [00:13:00] tapes, and he noticed that a lot of the -- and you’ll see, the reel-to-reel, it’s very fine, because it’s so old. But what he did, and this was his way of documen-- trying to 9 �secure it, he put it on the wall, and then he took a video camera, and he was, like, trying to, with a VHS tape. So there’s also a VHS tape of that film in here. So you’ll have it, and, you know, you guys are more than welcome to take it, and I’m sure I’ll put it in good hands. JJ: And did you need the original, or do you want us to...? LN: Whatever I give you, that’s what I’m gonna give you. I -- JJ: So then we just send you the copies? LN: Yeah. JJ: Whatever we want? LN: Yeah, I mean, whichever way is easiest for you. Because, I mean, I don’t have the capability of playing some of this stuff -- JJ: No, no, [we’ll do it there?] and then we’ll (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: And then the other tapes that he has on here is -- JJ: To the address you gave us? LN: Yes. JJ: Okay. LN: The recording, this was before cassettes, you know, remember the reel-to-reel things? It’s a little tape. __: Yeah. JJ: Oh, yeah. LN: And there was a lot of [00:14:00] stuff like that. I mean, the guy was amazing, and I was telling my wife the other day, he would make the camellos -- JJ: I definitely remember his name, I just (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) 10 �LN: He would do camellos. JJ: Been 40-some years, I can’t -- LN: And he would sit at home and we would run out of wire hangers because he was always inventing things. And he made horses--camels out of wire, and then he would have my grandmother drape it, you know, to make it look like a camel. And he would do this, like, you know, his little tweezers and his little tools, and now you see it, like, you see Santa’s snowmen outside of people’s lawns, out of the wire, I’m like, you know, Marcano, he used to do this stuff! The guy was a visionary. But he wanted to make sure that, you know, the Puerto Ricans there had somewhere to go. You know, I belonged to a boys club, boys and girls club in Chicago, when I got here. JJ: At that [00:15:00] time? LN: Well -- JJ: Was it the boys club on -- LN: There was a boys club, Eisenberg’s Boys Club. Right on... Orchard and Willow. JJ: Exactly, yeah. LN: And kinda like what Marcano had was, you know, similar to a boys club, but for adults, you know? He had all this organizations, all these people there, and they were all involved. I mean, there’s -- he -- JJ: So he had a sports social club (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: A sports social club. JJ: [I don’t wanna?] -- I shouldn’t label things, but (inaudible) LN: Well... 11 �JJ: Is that what he was, or [am I--?]? LN: Yep. Mm-hmm. Exacto. And he had a lot of people, and he -- JJ: Was it for the Caballeros de San Juan or was it just (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? LN: He was part -- no, it was apart from Caballeros de San Juan, it was kinda -- I don’t know if it was something similar, but I remember he had -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) social clubs, there was a social club... LN: I think he belonged to all those clubs. He did. (laughs) And I have a younger brother who was also born in Chicago, he’s living in Puerto Rico, and I have a younger sister, also, who was born in Chicago. And all the family -- JJ: What’s their names? I didn’t get their names. LN: [00:16:00] Osvaldo Neris and Ivelisse Neris. But they moved with my mom to Puerto Rico years ago. But, you know, all my family, the Gorgas family, was there on Halsted at one time or another. JJ: Borjas? LN: Gorgas. JJ: Gorgas, okay. All right. LN: Yeah. G-O-R-G-A-S, Gorgas. Strange last name. Both of my last names, I think, are. (laughs) Pero, yeah, it was mostly Puerto Ricans, and I still run into people, the other day I was at the hospital with my dad, he had some surgical procedure done, and I saw, you know, a guy I grew up with, and he was waiting to get picked up, and the Uvides family, I don’t know if you heard of [Julio?] Uvides. 12 �JJ: Exactly. LN: And Carmen Uvides. JJ: They were from Council Number Nine (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Yeah, they were involved too. I mean, they did a lot, and... I think Marcano eventually named one of his leagues the Julio Uvides Baseball League, and that was for the little kids. And then he had Julio [00:17:00] Uvides Softball League. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) at that time. (inaudible) LN: And he used to have the slow-pitch softball. JJ: He was definitely a community leader. LN: And that was a lot of people, I’m telling you, [like?], Lincoln Park, I mean, he used to get permits for everything there. At Lincoln Park, the actual park, not the neighborhood, but the park. And he had permits, he knew the guys at the park district, they would -- but I remember -- I do remem-- JJ: Did he have a city [dab?] or, no, [he didn’t?]? LN: No, he didn’t. No, he didn’t. JJ: He didn’t? LN: No. JJ: But he just knew the guys at the park district. LN: Knew the guys at the park district. JJ: So he was working with the mayor at that time, then. LN: He wasn’t working with the mayor. He had the organization, and I don’t know how, I mean, I’m not a politician, but now, you know, having seen stuff that happens in the paper and how things work in Chicago -- 13 �JJ: [You gotta?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) the city. Yeah. LN: You know, you gotta know somebody. And, you know, Marcano did have a lot of people in his organization. A lot of parents. And there was not a fee, I mean, Marcano didn’t charge a fee. And I think even for the kids, I think, maybe they would get uniforms, I don’t know how the whole uniform thing worked out, but when you [00:18:00] have an organization that big in a neighborhood, and... You know, it’s all about votes, you know? And I’m sure the politicians are gonna come and say “Hey,” you know, “who’s the leader here?” And they would talk to Marcano. And I do remember, you know, we had baseball bats, we had gloves, we had everything. We had boxes, and Marcano would lug it around in his big ol’ station wagon in the back, you know? Bases, everything. And so, it’s just the way, I guess, politics works (laughs) and you get the -- JJ: Yeah, exactly. That’s the way it did work. You had an organization, you were good. LN: They wanted it. Those are votes. I think they see them as votes. But he had a lot of contacts, he had a lot of connections. And I never asked him, and I don’t know how the whole -- JJ: So he never talked to you about politics, he talked to you about sports. LN: Exacto, yeah, yeah, he never pushed the politics part, yeah. JJ: So he was more [interested in?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). LN: They knew that -- I think that -- I have cousins who eventually did work for the park district, and I think they worked with the ward person at the time -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Committeemen, [00:19:00] whatever. 14 �LN: Committeemen, yeah, and, you know -- JJ: [Aldermen?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: -- kinda knock on doors, and, you know, it’s just the way Chicago is. (laughs) And some of them are still working there, I think some of them retired. But Marcano, I remember, before he left to Puerto Rico, because he got older, and he’s like, you know, “I’ve had it here, I’m gone.” And he left in, I wanna say 1986, ’87? That’s when he left to Puerto Rico? JJ: What do you think he was mad about, or frustrated, or whatever? LN: Why he left? JJ: Yeah, why he went (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: No, he left because he was just, you know, he was here alone. I mean, he had us, and I considered him my grandfather, I mean, I knew him my entire life, but I think he was at that stage in his life where he said, “You know what, I --” The winters were brutal here. I do remember when he left, he’s like, “You know, I can’t handle another winter here.” So he left. I mean, he’s like, he’s got a house in Puerto Rico. “I’m going back.” And that’s what he did, he went back. I don’t think he was frustrated, I mean, he loved Chicago. [00:20:00] You know, he came here. I remember the video. Again, I’m going all by memory for the video. There’s video of him coming to Chicago, and they’re saying goodbye to him in Puerto Rico, and then he’s got the camera here. I mean, he brought the camera with him. He’s documenting everything. But I don’t think there was any frustration about anything, I think it was just... He lived in the neighborhood for a long time, and I think he, mor-- 15 �JJ: Did he talk about why he documented? I mean, what was his fascination (inaudible)? LN: You know, it’s a shame that he’s not around to tell you, because, again, I was giving the example of the stuff we ran out of wire hangers. And how he would make stuff, like, out of wire hangers. The guy didn’t have an education, and I see snowmen on people’s lawns, and reindeers, out of the same thing. Maybe it’s that he saw, “This has gotta be documented somewhere.” Maybe this is what he wanted all along, to make sure that [00:21:00] the Puerto Ricans in that neighborhood, or the Puerto Ricans coming here, were not forgotten, that they lived in Lincoln Park, and then, that asides from, you know, more or less having to move out of the neighborhood for whatever reason, whether through sale, or rent increases, or whatever -- JJ: Was the moving going out -- were people moving out at the same time that he was documenting, or? LN: I don’t think so. No, I -- well, he documented when we were living there. Again, I’m going back to what I remember from what -- and you will see this. The activities, I remember something going on at a church on Armitage, between Armitage and I don’t know if it’s Bissell or Burling. It’s Burling, right? JJ: The church there? LN: Yeah, the church there. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) people’s church -- LN: People on the street, I remember, you know, being on my -- on the film, I think I’m there, I’m on my dad’s shoulders, and there’s people everywhere. I don’t 16 �know what they were shouting about, or what they were screaming -- I was a kid, you know. (laughs) And I haven’t seen the movies in a long time. But he [00:22:00] documented everything, and I think when he -- he had a restaurant, too, called El Batey Restaurant, right on Halsted and Armitage. JJ: El Batey LN: A lot of people coming through. I remember politicians coming in and getting bussed in to the back seats, where the big tables were. (laughs) You know? And they were seated, and not for nothing, but, you know, Puerto Rican women know how to cook, man, and they (inaudible). (laughter) I gain a lot of weight when every time I go to Puerto Rico, ’cause Mami takes care of me like I’m a king, and I’m like, “I can’t do this.” But they cook really good, and he had the restaurant there, so he documented a lot of that stuff. He had events there, you know? He did plays, I remember being part of the Christmas plays. He made a play called El puerco de Osvaldo en tiempo de Navidad. And he came up with the skit. JJ: “The pig of Osvaldo in the time --” LN: Yeah, “Osvaldo’s pig in the time of the holidays”, you know? And Osvaldo would go to everybody, the thing is, Abuelo would go to Osvaldo, which was my younger brother, you know. He would go to everybody’s Christmas party and eat lechón, and he had a little pig as his pet. And you know, they [00:23:00] were like, saying, “Hey, you know what! [Get away?], your time’s coming!” He’s like, “No, not this year, maybe next year.” So he would eat everybody’s roasted pig, but nobody -- like, he never, I mean, that was his pet, he would never get rid of it, 17 �like, no way. And he made stori-- and we would play ’em at the -- we would do the play at the Museum of Science and Industry. And I remember his organization also was in charge of decorating the Puerto Rican Christmas tree at the Museum of Science and Industry. And that was an event in itself. They would make the maracas. He would make the little... The big knives, machete. (laughs) When he would knit the little Puerto Rican flag, and he would make the little pavas, the little jíbaro hats, and he would put a ribbon in. The tree was decorated, I mean, I remember my grandmother used to do this stuff, ’cause they -- grandma was a decorator, and my mom, they loved decorating, they loved arrangements and stuff, and they would do all these little things for the tree, and it was a beautiful [00:24:00] tree. And then he would have people coming over during the holidays, and you know, (Spanish) [00:24:04], you know, there was a parranda, and then trying to tell people what Puerto Ricans were like. And I don’t know if you know about the Museum of Science and Industry, they have the “Christmas Around the World”, and every year they decorate a tree from each country around the world, and it’s an exhibit. I think it’s going on now, through the end of... Maybe after January. But he would document all of that stuff. And as a kid, I remember, you know, living there, and being part of this, and then eventually having to move out because, again, he didn’t own the property. He had the restaurant there, we lived upstairs. He eventually had to move somewhere else because they sold the building, he had to get rid of the restaurant. So he went to Orchard, it was on Orchard Street, 1665 North Orchard. It was between [00:25:00] North Avenue and Willow. And it was all 18 �projects that are there, it’s low-income housing. And because they were now older, you know, they got an opportunity to get an apartment that -JJ: Willow and... Orchard? LN: Willow and Orchard. JJ: Where the boys club was. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Yeah. Well, you know, the boys club was torn down. (laughs) ’Cause they tore that boys club down, because enrollment dropped, I remember, and it was valuable property. JJ: So was that crime (inaudible)? So was that Section 8, or...? LN: The boys club? JJ: YeahI mean the -- what they built afterwards. LN: No, yeah, those were condos. JJ: They were condos? LN: Oh, yeah, they tore the boys club down and -- condos. I do remember -- JJ: [Were you?] saying you lived there, somebody lived there, right? LN: Yeah, my grandma lived there. Well, it was right on the corner, the boys club was right on the corner -- JJ: But they didn’t live in a condo. Did they, or did they live in a condo? LN: My grandparents? JJ: Yeah. LN: No, no, they lived -- well, the boys club was right on Willow and Orchard. Right on the corner. And then, the boys club had that corner lot there. The Section 8 housings that I’m talking about is behind it. So, [00:26:00] that’s where -- we 19 �could walk to the boys club from there, I remember. We would walk from the apartment to the boys club. Then, when the boys club enrollment dropped, or maybe, again, somebody was offering a lot of money, it’s prime property, they tore that down, that entire block from Orchard and Willow, almost to Laramie, or to Howe, I think Howe was the next street over. And you know what, I think it even went over to Laramie -- Larrabee, Larrabee, which is further down. And all that whole block was torn down, and they made condos, very expensive condos, I remember. And then when they tore the boys club down, we had nowhere else to go, I mean -JJ: So you went to the boys club? LN: Oh, I went to the boys club. JJ: So what happened in there, what was going on there? LN: It was more after-school activities. I remember -- JJ: And who was the population, I mean, (inaudible)? LN: Mostly African American from the Cabrini-Green homes. And then you had your few Puerto Ricans that would come in. I remember I went there, and yeah, I think the fee was, like, I don’t know, two, three bucks for the year. And we got our little card, and we would go there, play basketball, we’d go swimming. JJ: No dodgeball? LN: [00:27:00] Oh yeah, dodgeball, kickball, you name it. Softball in the back. The boys club was so big, I mean, the lot that they had, I remember there was a softball field in the back. And they would have events in the summer, like, you 20 �know, summer Olympics or something. I mean, yeah, but mostly it was African American, from Cabrini-Green and in the neighborhood, but then you had -JJ: At that time. LN: At that time. JJ: We played dodgeball, when I was growing up. LN: Oh, is that right? (laughter) And then you had your Puerto Rican -- JJ: It was more Puerto Rican then, but (inaudible) LN: Yeah. (laughter) Yeah, I eventually (inaudible) you got out! JJ: (inaudible) Cabrini-Green got pushed out to later. LN: Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah. That’s -- JJ: I’m sorry, I’m going off -- LN: That’s changed big time. JJ: I’m going off the time. LN: Pero, pero no, I mean, I mean, that’s what I remember. JJ: But you remember playing basketball there and that you played (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Basketball, oh yeah, absolutely, basketball, softball in the back. Again, you know, dodgeball, kickball, they had the nice swimming pool. We would go in there, they would let us in at night. I forget who we knew, or maybe one of my friends knew somebody who would open the door for us, and we would go in after hours, which was [00:28:00] kinda cool, it was just -- we had the swimming pool all to ourself. Obviously under supervision, [we didn’t?], you know, go in there by ourselves. But nothing I would admit to on tape. (laughter) Pero it was, 21 �you know, it was a good time. It was a good time, and it’s unfortunate that, you know, I mean, it is what it is. I eventually moved out, myself, ’cause it just got too expensive. After Marcano moved out, it was -- his rent there was based on his income, and because he was on Social Security, he paid, like, I think it was, like, something crazy, like, 64 bucks or something. Entonce, and I was there, I was at school at the time, I went to Columbia College. And it was just him, my grandmother -JJ: What was your major there? What was that? (laughs) LN: Communications, imagine that. (laughs) And I’m doing something completely different now. JJ: (inaudible) LN: But he, you know, he paid something crazy, and then when he moved, we had to report it. And so I reported it to the office, [00:29:00] and the rent shot up to 400 bucks, and I was there by myself. And it was okay, I mean, I delivered pizzas in the neighborhood, I mean, at O’Fame Restaurant and I did that for six, seven years, and they actually, it was pretty good money, you know. Cash money, no taxes. (laughs) JJ: Tips, you [got?] those. LN: Tips were great. I delivered mostly in the Lincoln Park area, which I knew like the back of my hand, and we would come downtown as well, and up north. And they fed me, and I worked three, four nights out of the week, I was living by myself, I’m eating pizza. I love pizza! (laughter) I wanna have pizza in the morning, you know, I wanna have pizza at night. And every night, they had food 22 �for us. So it was a good thing for me. But, you know, the 400 dollars, man, it’s like, I’m a college kid! You know? I gotta pay school, I gotta pay my own bus fare, you know, and granted, we did get some financial assistance, I got financial assistance, but it just wasn’t enough. And then, I did that, and I got a job when I graduated -JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) ’cause, I mean, at that time some people, [00:30:00] I remember we got paid, like, 80 dollars a month, so... LN: Is that right? JJ: So 400 is a lot. LN: It is a lot. JJ: When they raised it to 400, [we moved?]. LN: I had to. (laughs) I had to. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Yeah, I had to. I think I stayed there for a bit, but you know, it was -- I made a little bit more money than my parents, you know, it’s like, I made about 75, 80 bucks a night, at the time, back in the ’80s, I think that was good, man. JJ: Very good. LN: For a kid, you know, working -- JJ: So this was the ’80s, ’cause you were living there in the ’80s, that’s [pretty?] -- LN: I was still living there, yeah. The ’80s. JJ: That’s pretty (inaudible). I thought that most Puerto Ricans were gone by that time, no? They just -- LN: They were. Oh, yeah, absolutely. 23 �JJ: So when was the change, did you see the change? LN: You’re absolutely -- oh yeah, I saw it. I mean, I think we were probably -- JJ: What was that like, the change, can you describe that or...? LN: I mean, we wouldn’t even venture down Halsted Street. We didn’t know anybody. You know, it wasn’t the same. I told you the story about when I was a kid, remembering the Puerto Ricans playing the guitarra, playing dominos, you know, hanging out, haciendo chiste’, [00:31:00] the kids running around, you know. There was none of that, ’cause you know, our culture, we love to enjoy everything, I think. And we go to the extreme. (laughs) You know? And we have the parrandas in there, and we go all out. And you can still see some of that in Humboldt Park, if you drive down Division Street, I’m sure you can see that in the summer. Pero, when we moved over there, to the Section 8 housing, I don’t remember any Puerto Ricans. Any Puerto Ricans. I lived on 1911. I think there’s still one family there. JJ: Halsted, or...? LN: 1911 North Halsted, which is right by Wisconsin. And the house that we lived there, it’s still there, ’cause I drove around there not too long ago. And I am willing to bet that the guy who bought it -- the guy who owned it when I was there, either his daughter or his -- somebody, they still own it. It’s still there. 1911 North Halsted. And I think that’s the only family. But it was a complete change, there was none of the hanging out outside, none of the, [00:32:00] you know, us playing against the guys from down the street, there was none of that. Because, it’s a completely different, you know, young people were moving in... 24 �JJ: Some people would think that hanging out outside would be rowdiness or something like that. LN: I don’t remember -- JJ: Was it like that, or (inaudible) LN: I don’t remember it being rowdy, not at all. No. I mean... JJ: Or at least scary, or something. LN: You know, it’s just that the people that live there, they like the music. That’s probably what they did in Puerto Rico, you know? And they just brought that here. To other people, they’re more like, “Oh, what are they doing hanging outside?” You know? But I don’t remember it ever being a problem. ’Cause it just wasn’t one night. You know? I mean, it wasn’t every night, though, ’cause people had to work. (laughs) But I remember the hanging out outside, you know, absolutely. But it wasn’t -- yeah, you’re right, people may consider it hanging out, you know, it’s not like a bunch of kids hanging out, it’s a [00:33:00] whole different world nowadays, you know. Kids hanging out outside, you know, in groups, nowadays, cannot compare to hanging out back in the day, when I was growing up, ’cause it was just kids running around, parents were outside. You know, there was, at least for the most part, at least from what I remember, I saw Mom and Dad there. Not speaking in terms of my mom and dad, but mom and dads of other kids there. Like, the couple. Nowadays, different, divorce rate, whatever. You don’t see Mom, you don’t see Dad, you just see the kid, and his buddies hanging out outside. And you can make your judgment on whatever you see there at the time, but, you know, my hanging out that I’m describing is, it was 25 �a good hanging out, you know. It wasn’t none of the, like you said, people may perceive it as being bad, but when we moved over there, it was a whole different neighborhood. I mean, it was just -- there was -JJ: Over where, to...? LN: When we moved over by the boys club, [00:34:00] by the Section 8 housing, the Halsted that I remember was pretty much gone. I mean, condos were going up, houses were being torn down. You know, different people moving in that were not Puerto Rican, people who owned the property or people who rented it. And it just, you know, it was just a different neighborhood. I mean, completely, it was transformed. But I was too young, I mean, I didn’t know. Marcano probably did. That’s probably why he documented it. Maybe he said, “This eventually will be part of something.” And, you know, you’re gonna have it in your hands, and you guys can do what you want. What I did not find, which I know I still have at home, is a bigger reel-to-reel. And I have your address, I know I’m gonna find it, ’cause we were moving some stuff around. And I got the pictures. And he wanted to document [00:35:00] everything. I don’t know why. Maybe it’s because we take pictures. I have a camera at home, I got over 20 thousand pictures of my kids, you know? (laughs) And maybe that’s just what I -- I enjoy doing it. JJ: Well, some of that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Some of that we’d probably also would like, ’cause it’s about you, I mean, this is all histories about you. [I mean?], I’m glad that we were honoring Marcano, because he definitely -- I appreciate what he was doing. 26 �LN: Yeah. JJ: I mean, as someone who’s trying to document stuff now, I appreciate what he was -- LN: I will tell you, Cha Cha, that if -- JJ: And he was a leader, he was definitely a born leader -- LN: He was a definite leader. JJ: -- in Lincoln Park (inaudible). LN: I mean, I don’t know what your budget is like, but my grandmother’s still alive. His wife. She’s in Puerto Rico. And -- JJ: We do go to Puerto Rico, I just came back from (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: If you go to Puerto Rico, let me know. I mean, she lives in Gurabo. Right next to her, right literally next to her is her son, her younger son, Junior Gorgas, Jose Gorgas. [00:36:00] And, you know, they have a lot they could tell you as well. And Abuela, although she’s a little bit older, she’s in her nineties, and she doesn’t remember what happened yesterday, she’s got an amazing memory of what happened 40, 50 years ago, you know. And I’m sure she could provide you with a lot more info as well. More about -- because, remember, I was a younger kid. I remember just, you know, being born there with the -- Papi told me that was the building, and I remember what I did as a kid on Halsted -- JJ: [No?], your generation is what we’re talking about, too, so -- LN: Oh, pero if you’re looking for further back, Abuela, and Marcano, who unfortunately passed away, Abuela would definitely have more. Because she 27 �lived through that change, and she, you know, she was a little bit older. She remembered a lot more. And -JJ: You don’t know what year they came to Chicago, do you? LN: Well, I was born in [00:37:00] ’65. I wanna say, I think my mom, she said she was 17, 18 when she had me, she wasn’t born here, she was born in Puerto Rico. I wanna say maybe in the late ’50s, it’s gotta be late ’50s. JJ: Now did they always say they lived in Lincoln Park, or did they live somewhere else before that? LN: Always Lincoln Park. Always Lincoln Park. JJ: So they came in the late ’50s to Lincoln Park. LN: As far as I remember, yes. ’Cause I remember, for a while, I don’t know if you heard of a company called [Cumings Display?]. (laughs) It’s a flower shop. And they used to work there on Halsted Street. But they lived on Ar-- my abuela lived on -- JJ: Yes, I do remember that. LN: -- on Armitage, right by Santa Teresa, right by the L. JJ: Cumings Display, okay, [that?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Cumings Display was on Halsted, it was a flower shop, and then they eventually moved downtown to Wells. I remember coming downtown with my mom and my grandmother. Maybe that’s where they got -- JJ: So they’re on Wells now? LN: They used to be, I think they closed. I mean, it’s been [00:38:00] years. Pero -- JJ: But they were by Saint Teresa’s? 28 �LN: Yeah. They were. And Abuela and Marcano, I remember them living by Santa Teresa church. JJ: You didn’t go to Saint Teresa’s. LN: Oh yeah, oh yeah. JJ: Oh, you went to Saint -- LN: To school? No. I went to the church. JJ: What was going on there? LN: Oh, Sunday mass. JJ: Oh, so you went to Sunday mass. LN: Yeah, yeah, Sunday mass. So they always lived in that neighborhood. Entonce’, when my grandparents decided to go to Puerto Rico, ’cause the winters were just too brutal here, they were still living over there at the houses on Orchard and Willow. So they always lived in Lincoln Park, from what I remember. I don’t know if they ever went -- they lived in Humboldt Park -- I don’t think -- I think they came to Lincoln Park, and that’s where they lived. And eventually, that was their last place. When they left, they went to Puerto Rico, you know, and that’s where they were until his death, and she’s still alive, she’s still kicking. 90 years old. And she looks good, [00:39:00] for her age. JJ: So they only moved because of the brutal winters, or? LN: I think, yeah -- they were retired, you know. There was nothing else here for them, they couldn’t do anything else. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) [retired?]? LN: Yeah. 29 �JJ: You said that the restaurant was closed down? LN: Well, the restaurant, they sold it. JJ: Twice? LN: Because he -- well, he didn’t own the building, he sold the restaurant. I mean, he rented the restaurant, and he rented the whole building. ’Cause he had the restaurant on the first floor, and then the upstairs apartment -- JJ: And this was on what corner, again? LN: Halsted and Armitage. JJ: Right on the-- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: 1971 North Halsted was the address. JJ: Oh, 1971, okay. LN: ’Cause 1973 is [Nick’s] Bar, which is right on the corner, so we’re right next to the bar. (laughs) But yeah, good business, because, you know, the bar people would come over, and Puerto Rican food. (laughs) [Patilillo, murcia?], whatever they would make. And so he sold the -- I guess the restaurant -- they raised the rent, and he said, “I gotta go.” But he had the restaurant, [00:40:00] too. So he sold the restaurant to somebody else, and they kept it, they kept the name for a while, and then eventually they closed. Maybe ’cause they couldn’t cook as good as my mom or my grandma. (laughs) JJ: Now, you mentioned the people hung out on the corn-- on the outside, and that you were outside people, you hung around out there playing dominos and music. LN: Mm-hmm. JJ: Was there any -- how was the gang situation there? 30 �LN: I don’t remember a gang around there. I don’t know if it’s because -- my grandmother was very... She would always tell us, you know. She would always say, “Hey, don’t hang out, this --” She was always careful. Always watching out for us, you know. And I’m thankful for that because, you know, we were very vulnerable young men. But it was just the guys hanging out. I mean, we never -what I remember, I don’t remember ever having any troubles with gangs. As a younger kid, I remember, when we were on Armitage one time, I went to the store ’cause my mom sent me, and it was over there, it was a store right under the [00:41:00] L on Armitage, right before you get to Sheffield. And there was a store right by the alley, I don’t know, to get something, and I remember the Latin Kings being there. And there was Latin Kings there, and I think there was another gang up north, there was Harrison Gents over there by Larrabee, but over there on Halsted, I don’t remember ever... We didn’t venture too far from there ’cause, you know, our parents wouldn’t let us! (laughs) She was always watching us. But on Halsted Street, I don’t remember... JJ: That hangout that you’re saying was at the end of -- but by that time Lincoln Park was kind of gone. LN: Yeah. JJ: So was it kinda unstable at that time (inaudible)? LN: Yeah, I mean, I don’t remember the gangs -- JJ: But growing up, you didn’t see a lot of gang activity or anything like that. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Well, when I went to high school -- 31 �JJ: [I know there were?] clubs, wearing sweaters and (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I went to high school, I remember -- I went to high school, I went to Waller one year and then it turned into Lincoln Park. And I remember that. And of course, you know, you see the guys come [00:42:00] in their sweaters. I remember the black and gold sweaters, and I remember the black and white from the Unknowns, and I think Eagles would come around once in a while... JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: And the Harrison Gents, which weren’t too far. You can’t compare to today, though. I mean, back then, people used to fight. Now, they shoot you. (laughs) You know? And... JJ: Right. So you can’t compare to today, and it wasn’t really... LN: I don’t think it was as -- JJ: It wasn’t really, like -- people weren’t associating with a club or something. LN: Yeah. Yeah. But just like anything else -- JJ: Is that what you’re saying? I don’t wanna put words... LN: Just like anything else, you’ll see a bunch of guys, and then there’s another, you know, you look at each other the wrong way or whatever, they don’t like you, you don’t like them. But I don’t remember -- JJ: You’re describing the later part of (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Yeah, but I was just gonna tell you, I don’t remember -- 32 �JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) describing the ’80s, you’re describing the ’70s and ’80s. LN: I don’t remember the violence, you know, I remember -- and it was more like social clubs, like you said. There’s hanging out, and, I guess, for whatever, [00:43:00] you know, did they have their illegal activities? Yeah, probably. You know? I mean, it’s been around for years, you know? I don’t see why they would be any different. But, you know, it wasn’t -- at least, from where I remember, on Halsted Street, it wasn’t none of that stuff, and guys coming around -- JJ: So, (inaudible) [summarize?], so you remember it was more family-oriented, though they were outside. LN: Absolutely. Yeah. JJ: Not gang, like today, or... LN: No. No, no, no. JJ: Trafficking in drugs, or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: No. I don’t remember that. And maybe, if it was around, I mean, I didn’t see it, you know. (laughs) Definitely didn’t see it. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Your family (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Nowadays, they do it out in the open market. I mean, they’ll all be out there -- JJ: -- not part of that, yeah. LN: Yeah, no, we were never part of that. JJ: Okay. You know, and I think that’s important to know, you know, people were just outside like they were in Puerto Rico, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) 33 �LN: Right. Right, right, right. Yeah, and it’s not -- it wasn’t no, no, no, no. No big wild parties every time it was out there, it was kinda almost like serenading, you know? I liked to sit around at home, and it was quiet -- JJ: And you were born, you s-- so we’re talking about a period after the [00:44:00] community was there for a while, too. LN: Yes. JJ: ’Cause you’re talking about when it was a Puerto Rican community, and before that it was also an Italian and (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Dude, that I didn’t know. Yeah, that -- the community was already established there. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) (laughs) LN: Yeah, that’s how -- the community was already established when we moved in. JJ: -- established when you were there. LN: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. JJ: So, since it was already established, it was more family. Is that what you’re saying, or? LN: Yeah, I mean, there was a lot of families on the block. You know? I mean, all the way from Halsted and Armitage all the way to Willow -- JJ: And [would you just describe?] (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: That’s where I remember the Calisto family lived. Willow and Orch-- Willow, and -- Halsted and Willow. And I think it even went further, I think when you got to North Avenue, then it started changing to the African American community. That’s more Cabrini-Green. 34 �JJ: Right. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: ’Cause you had all the projects down there. And then, but you had your African Americans right on Halsted as well. I remember a couple of families, guys that I went to school with at Newberry, you know, guys that went to school at Waller, then Lincoln Park. It was just all guys from the [00:45:00] neighborhood. But it was mostly Puerto Ricans on the block, and, you know, it was already established. It was already established, it wasn’t -- I don’t remember the transition from the other ethnic group to the Puerto Ricans. I do remember the Puerto Rican community then, you know, migrating west, or going back to Puerto Rico, wherever they went, and then the turnover to a different community. Was more white community. JJ: So there was a lot of that going on? During that -- while you were there? What year are you referring to? LN: Well, when I lived there, I was in high school, in the ’80s. JJ: Okay, the ’80, okay. LN: But it had already started to change. It had already started to change. The guys that -- I mean, I graduated from Newberry School, and then we went to Waller, Lincoln Park, and had already started to change, ’cause we had already -- we were still living on Halsted [00:46:00] and Armitage, but then in the 1980s, it started to change. I mean, I remember. But when I lived there on Halsted, it had already started to change. Now, I didn’t venture too far south on Halsted Street. Because, you know, our family was over here closer to Armitage. But there was still some people on the block. Puerto Rican families. But it did start to change. 35 �And then, when we moved over to Orchard and Willow, it was almost like, you know, after Marcano moved, I think we were probably one of the last few families to move out of there. And then it started -JJ: And this was the ’80s. LN: This was the ’80s, definitely the ’80s. Yeah. I remember we moved out [to 9th?] -- it was 1980, I graduated ’83? About ’84, ’85, ’84? Is when he eventually moved over to the homes over there. And he was there until he left. He said, you know, he’s [00:47:00] had enough, he’s gone, the winters are too brutal for him. Yeah, so that’s what I remember. The change. The change back in the mid-’80s. JJ: How did you take the change? LN: You know, I was living with my grandparents, so it’s... JJ: I mean, ’cause you grew up there, right? So you had to -- LN: Yeah, I mean, but, you know, it’s like, wherever the grandparents were going, that’s where I had to go. (laughs) You know? I mean, I didn’t -- I just had to follow where they were going. It didn’t affect me, I mean, had I wish we would’ve stayed there? Absolutely. You always wanna stay, especially if you’ve been there for years. But the community had already started to change, and it wasn’t the same thing. I mean, I would love to be able to go back in time, just for that, but as adults, and just to see how it would’ve turned out, had the community stayed with all the families there, and all the -- everybody who grew up in -[00:48:00] it would be ideal, but you know, that stuff doesn’t happen, only in movies, I think. You know? 36 �JJ: So you’re going to Waller High School during this change. How was Waller High School? You graduated from there, you said? So... LN: I did not. I graduated in ’83. What happened was, I went to Waller one year, and then it changed to Lincoln Park. And then my parents divorced -- JJ: What was that like? You know, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: To me, it was just a name change. It was a name change. I mean, the school was still the same. I remember reading an article about Waller being such a bad school, and it was so bad, you know, and I have an article at home, if you want it, I’ll make sure you get it. And the only reason I kept it is because, I remember, whoever wrote it, it was in the Tribune, I was in the paper -- JJ: That would be a good thing. LN: It was a black and white photo, I was coming out of class, and there was a photographer taking pictures and I just happened to be there. Then one of my friends -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) So you were in the-- (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Yeah, one of my friends was flipping through the pages -- JJ: I definitely wanna see that. LN: And he’s like, “Hey!” And so he kept it, and he gave me the paper. [00:49:00] And so, there was an article about how bad Waller used to be, how one teacher got thrown out of a window or something, and there was always gang fights, and then, now it’s Lincoln Park, and, you know, it changed. Lincoln Park High School. And now the change. And I remember thinking, “How can a name 37 �change,” you know, “change the school so much?” You know? And eventually it did, because it’s a very -- it’s a tough school to get into now. Unless you (inaudible). But it’s -- man, oh, back then anybody could go there. But to me the change wasn’t that big of a deal, it was just Waller, and then I still saw the same students, I still saw the same teachers. Maybe eventually they got some, I don’t know, I didn’t see any big change, it was just a name change. JJ: You said before -- LN: Think it was a bad reputation, maybe. JJ: You said before that the community wasn’t really that gang type. LN: Yeah, but -- JJ: But now they’re reporting in newspapers saying that it was. LN: Well, because, no, I’m talking about Waller High School. [00:50:00] Now, remember, Waller is on -- it’s not that far from where we lived. We lived on Halsted and Armitage, to, you know -- I lived on Halsted and Wisconsin. So Halsted and Armitage, to Halsted and Wisconsin. My parents lived on Halsted and Wisconsin, my grandparents lived by the restaurant. So I remember that. Now, the school is not too far from there. So, you know -- JJ: Couple blocks. LN: Yeah, just a couple blocks. But, again, I don’t know if I just wanna believe that we had a protective layer around our block, I don’t remember anything like that. You know? Did it happen? It probably happened a block behind us. But not on the -- where I grew up in. JJ: But you didn’t see it. 38 �LN: I didn’t see it. No. I didn’t see it. And what I’m telling you about the school -- JJ: You didn’t see what the paper was describing. LN: Yeah. What I’m telling you about the school was that that’s what they reported. You know? And I don’t know whether they were talking about Cabrini-Green. I mean, listen, it’s a project, you know what projects are like, you know, you put a bunch of people in a building, what do you think they’re gonna do, you know? I mean, it’s just crazy. And -- JJ: And actually, they were bussing, but actually -- [00:51:00] not bussing, they were giving bus tickets to the people in Cabrini-Green to go to Waller. LN: Is that right? JJ: During that time. LN: Yeah? Wow. JJ: So those people didn’t even live in Waller, but they -- LN: I haven’t read the article in years, but I’m sure that that’s what they talk about, you know, about people coming into the neighborhood. Pero, you know, the stuff that I saw in high school when I went there, it’s not the stuff that I remember seeing on my block. Granted, guys did come by, we would play softball and stuff, but I don’t remember any of the -- and I think it had a lot to do, again, Marcano and Paulita, my grandparents, they were involved. I mean, they were involved in everything we did. They made sure -- I mean, I remember my abuela going to the school, and if there was something, issue, something going on in the community, Abuela was there. They knew Abuela, they knew Paulita Marcano, you know? And every time they would go -- I mean, we’re not saints, you know, 39 �we’d get into trouble at school or something, we didn’t do our homework, or my cousins [00:52:00] would get into a fight or something, Abuela was there. She was always there. And -JJ: (inaudible) Even though she wasn’t asked to man the PTA, she came in and -- LN: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. She was there. Oh, she was there. JJ: (laughs) (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Absolutely, yeah. She was there all the time. And my grand-- and my mom -- JJ: [And the?] other parents? Were they doing that? LN: Other parents were there too, as well. Absolutely. JJ: So the parents were actively involved in the schools. LN: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. JJ: And with their kids. Is that what you’re saying? LN: Yes. They were -- my grandmother, my mom, were there. I remember other parents as well, too. Being there. And so, maybe it was because they were so involved, and I don’t know if maybe, you know, they would stand up to anything. I mean, as a parent, you would stand up to anybody trying to come into your neighborhood and messing around with your kids’ lives. I mean, I would do it, I’m sure you would too. And I think that’s what they did. And so maybe I was just -I’m thinking about this protective layer because Abuela was there, and parents were involved, and stuff. And maybe they knew, like, “Let’s not mess around in that neighborhood.” (laughs) You know? They didn’t walk around like community watchmen, or [00:53:00] neighborhoods, or anything. They were just 40 �there. They were always involved. And on the block on Halsted, I don’t remember any -- I mean, the competitions we would get into would be like, teams from the south sides of Halsted Street against the north side, playing a game at the clínica. (laughs) You know? The clínica, where there was bases painted on the floors, and then we had -- we would play fast pitching, or we would go to Newberry and play fast pitching against [DeWall?], and, you know, like, “Hey, our team will play your team!” And it was kinda like a mini competition. But it wasn’t ever about us fighting them or anything like that. Or even outsider gangs, or the Kings, or the Gents, or whatever coming over. I think, eventually, later -- but I don’t wanna say, because I didn’t experience it. I didn’t experience none of the gangs coming on Halsted Street. The article did mention about how bad Waller High School was. But I say that because that’s what I read. It’s not what I experienced. And, again, you got people coming in [00:54:00] from everywhere, you know. I could definitely see trouble at the high school. JJ: So why do you think the newspaper would (inaudible) say something like that? Just to sell papers, or? LN: Could be. It could be. (laughs) JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: I don’t know. I don’t know why the paper -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) said, I’m just saying (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: I’ll get you the copy, but, you know, I think that -- JJ: What do you think (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) 41 �LN: -- the paper did it because they wanted to document that it was a change, and the high school was changing. They said “cleaned it up”. Again, I only went there for two years, Waller one year, and then it became Lincoln Park -- JJ: And what year was that? LN: ’78. JJ: Seventy (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: ’78, ’79, ’79-80. And that’s when it was Lincoln Park. And then I moved to Puerto Rico. I graduated from a high school in Vieques, Puerto Rico. The little island off the coast of Puerto Rico. JJ: Little famous island. LN: Yeah, little famous island. Yeah. With all the US bombing we used to be, not anymore. But I went to high school there for two years. My parents separated, divorced, and I went with my mom. And, I did good, I mean, I spoke Spanish at home. My parents always spoke [00:55:00] Spanish. I speak fluent Spanish. And I adapted. It was tough getting used to, though. It’s a whole different world in Vieques. You know? From growing up in Chicago. And growing up in a big city. JJ: So how was that, going over there? How were you treated? LN: Oh my God, it was a culture shock. Culture shock. JJ: Culture shock? What do you mean? What do you mean? LN: Well, you know, here, you can hang out outside. You know? And you could over there, and you could do so many things, but Vieques, I mean, you think... It’s like going to the campo. And -- 42 �JJ: To the country, okay. LN: Putting you there, where, at seven o’clock at night, everybody’s in bed. This was back in the ’80s. And this is like -- (laughs) That’s how it was. I remember the first day that I got there, we were playing all day, I took a shower, and I put on jeans, and a t-shirt, and socks, and gym shoes. And I went outside, because my brother was outside, my younger brother, my stepbrother was outside. And they’re asking me, “Where are you [00:56:00] going?” And I’m like, “What do you mean, where I’m going? I’m not going anywhere.” He’s like, “Why do you got jeans on?” ’Cause everybody’s got on shorts, you know, chancletas, sandals, and a t-shirt. You know, t-shirts. And here, it looks like I’m going into town, just because I got a jeans and socks and a shirt on. JJ: And shoes. (laughs) LN: And shoes. And it’s like, “Well, where are you -- it’s a weekn-- It’s a school night, like, where are you going?” I’m like, “I’m not going anywhere!” “Well, why are you dressed like that?” I’m like, “How am I supposed to dress like?” You know? But everybody was in shorts, chancletas, ’cause everybody’s just chilling, a couple hours, and then going to bed, ’cause they gotta go to school the next day. And, I mean, we had two channels, three channels. We had channel 2, Telemundo, channel 4, WAPA, and channel 40, which was a cable channel that would come in because a US base was there, so we would get a feed, a very light feed. Three channels. And there’s not much else to do. You got, you know, two, three guys in the house, my parents, I mean, my mom and her husband, [00:57:00] they were sleeping early, ’cause they had to work. But there 43 �was nothing to do, I mean, there’s like, you had a park, but here, when I was in Chicago, you could go with your buddies, you could go here, you could go party here, you know, anywhere. But, you know, in Puerto Rico, it was weird. It was just something different, I mean, we had a small house, there was about six of us in the house. (laughs) It was just a total shock. I adapted well in school because I spoke the language. And of course, anybody who comes from the States to Puerto Rico, they call you Nuyorican. I wasn’t a Nuyorican, I was a Chicagorican. Because that’s where I came from. But because, you know, (Spanish)Gringo [00:57:42]. Because I spoke English, or they knew I came from the States. They knew I wasn’t from there. So, but, I mean, I only lived there for two years. I made great friends. This coming summer we’re having our 30th high school reunion, and, you know, they’re great [00:58:00] people, I mean, they -JJ: So you go there every year for the reunion, or? LN: I don’t go every year, I think the last one I went was for the 25th -- JJ: In Vieques (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: In Vieques, yeah. Vieques, yeah. It’s a nice little trip, yeah. JJ: [What?] was the school? [I mean?], was there only one school? LN: There was only one high school. There still is only one high school. (laughs) JJ: Do you remember the name? What’s the name of (inaudible)? LN: Germán Rieckehoff High School. JJ: Okay. 44 �LN: Well, you know what, I think that, but it’s the only high school, they have a junior high s-- JJ: [Germán Enrique?]? LN: Germán Rieckehoff. And I think, Germán Rieckehoff’s son used to be the president of the Puerto Rican Olympic Committee or something. But that’s -Germán Rieckehoff High School, that’s what I remember it being. It’s the only high school in Vieques. And there’s no college or university, you have to go to the mainland, you know, so. And then that’s the other thing, transportation, to get to Vieques you have to take a boat. Or a plane. Plane rides are -- they used to be, I remember, ten bucks. Back then, that was a lot of money. The boat was a dollar, or two dollars, that’s it. So everybody would take the boat. It was a lancha ride, which was a horrible hour-and-a-half ride, ’cause the boats back then were just crazy. JJ: (laughs) [Yeah, they [00:59:00] didn’t work right?]. LN: And then you have to be on the boat, you [can mareaba?], you get seasick. So it was going to a whole different world, man. I mean, you don’t have no TV, very -you can’t do much, there’s not much to do in Vieques, you know. (laughs) JJ: And this was what year? LN: This was 1982, ’83? JJ: And there was no TV or anything? LN: Well, we had a TV, and I think we had three channels, I don’t think we had -- JJ: Oh yeah, you had the three channels. 45 �LN: We had -- no, (inaudible) because they were local channels. I don’t know about cable or anything, you know. Plus we couldn’t afford it. (laughs) Not on my stepfather’s salary. JJ: But your family’s from there? He’s not from there (inaudible) -- LN: No, Mami is from Gurabo, but she’s got an older sister who married one of the pilots that flew from Vieques to Puerto Rico, who fly the planes. So her older sister married this guy, and he’s from Vieques, so when my mom went over there, you know, her only sibling there was her sister. So she went and lived with her sister for a while. And then Mami eventually bought the house down the street, [01:00:00] and that’s how Mami went to Vieques. And that’s where I went to high school, that’s where she was living at the time, so. JJ: So, yeah, ’cause they got the base, I saw that here, but the base (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Mm-hmm. They have two bases, yeah. JJ: So did you interact with those people at all, from the base? LN: With the base people? JJ: Yeah. LN: Oh yeah, my stepfather was a security guard for the base. That was his job. And he would get us in there, you know, to go fishing, crab fishing, (Spanish) [01:00:26] -- JJ: But they had rivers, or something like that? LN: They don’t have rivers, they have little lagoons, and they have other -- he knew those spots, because he was a security guard, and he would roam the areas. 46 �And he would talk, he spoke English, he would talk to the Navy guys, you know, and they would tell him. Some of the guys, they treated him good. And they would tell him, “Oh, you gotta go here,” and, you know, he was a security guard. And so he knew all the spots, so he would get us in there, and we would go to the base. I mean, they had, like, I forget what [01:01:00] they call it, their nightclub or something, and they had, like, music there, and I remember they used to have free movie nights, and they would have this big projector, and then I think, I don’t know if it was once a week or every night, they had a different movie. And they would allow the residents of Vieques to go. The only time you cannot go in the base, I remember, in the two years that I was there, was when they had the maniobra, they had the practice sessions where they would do all the bombing on, you know, one end of the island. Which is interesting, too, because when I was there, I remember being outside of my mom’s house, and feeling the earth move. And I’m like, “Oh, what was that?” And my brother, sister, and my stepbrothers, they were like, “Those are just practice bombs.” I’m like, “Really?” And they would just, you know, the whole island would shake. At least, that was my experience when I was there. I’m like, “Wow!” You know, this -- and that’s when you were not allowed to go on the base because, I guess, security reasons. [01:02:00] You know, obviously, they’re practicing. And they would do their landings in the boats, and shooting, and practice bombings, or whatever. But yeah, we would go in there all the time. I remember the free movie nights, I think we had to bring our own popcorn or buy popcorn from 47 �inside, but the movies were free. You know. (laughs) And, so we, you know, my stepfather mostly interacted with the Navy guys. JJ: But you didn’t actually hear the bombs, it was... LN: I felt them. Yeah, I felt them. JJ: Why wouldn’t you hear them? Were they underground? LN: No, I think it’s because they were far. I mean, you know, Vieques is not a big island, so right in the middle is where the residents live. And I think the practice was way at one of the ends of the island of Vieques. JJ: At the beach? at the beach. LN: So I wouldn’t hear them. I would see the Navy ships, though. If you would go to one of the -- I don’t know if you’ve been to Vieques. Vieques has got some of the most beautiful beaches in the world. JJ: No, I’ve never been (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). LN: It’s really, really pretty. So you would be in Sumbay Beach, which was, we called it Sumbay, but it’s Sun Bay [01:03:00] Beach. Puerto Ricans be calling Sumbay. (laughter) And, you could see the big Navy ships way, way, way in the background. You would see them. You wouldn’t -- I didn’t ever saw them firing. I felt it, when I, like I said, I heard the dun, like, dun, I felt that, but I wouldn’t -- I never saw them, you know. JJ: Was this a regular thing, where you felt that? LN: Oh, yeah. Every time they did the practice, you know. Once -- it’s like living next to a train. I remember we lived here, next to a train a while, and you hear the loud noise initially, but then after a while you just become oblivious to it. 48 �JJ: You get used to it. Bom, bom -- LN: Yeah, and so -- JJ: Yeah. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: -- initially when I first heard the bombs -- Yeah, you know, I felt it, I’m like, “Wow.” And then after that, you would hear ’em, whenever they would practice. I forgot how frequent they would practice. But after that, I didn’t hear ’em anymore. Again, it’s like, probably I just got used to them. And that’s why I said I don’t know how often they would practice. But yeah, Vieques was definitely an [01:04:00] experience. Very beautiful island. My sister still lives there. She works for Vieques Air Link, she’s one of the receptionists. ’Cause she speaks perfect English, you know? And Spanish. JJ: Air Link, Airlines? LN: Vieques Air Link. JJ: Air Link, Air Link. Okay. LN: Yeah. L-I-N-K. JJ: So is that the airport, or something? LN: That’s the airline there. JJ: Airline. LN: They have several, but one of them, the guy who founded it, his name was Valdo. But he came up with the initials VAL, you know, Vieques Air Link, and those are his initials for his name, so, and, so my sister works there. She still lives there. So I go there every chance I get, I’ll go there. It’s a very beautiful island. But I can only handle two or three days of that tranquility. Beautiful. If 49 �you ever wanna go there and just not hear anything. And just sit by the beach, which is what I do. One or two days is good. (laughs) JJ: So today you don’t hear the bombs, is that what you’re saying, or? LN: Oh yeah, they stopped bombing years ago. I think they got the Navy out of there. I wanna say, I forget when, in the ’90s I think. ’90, ’91, or something like that. They had the big [01:05:00] protest, all those mass arrests, all the congressmen and politicians -- JJ: (inaudible) LN: Was it Clinton that got -- I think it was Clinton, right? JJ: I’m not sure (inaudible) LN: One of them, yeah. But it was -- JJ: But I think it was around 2000. LN: It was ninety-- Yeah, you know, that must be right. Yeah. JJ: That year. LN: Yeah, it was -- JJ: ’99 or 2000, something like that. LN: But it’s very -- you don’t hear none of that anymore, you know, you don’t. It’s just, you know, Google it and you’ll see some of the -- it’s really -- JJ: ’Cause you’ve been back afterwards. LN: Oh, yeah, plenty of times. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) place is more tranquil? LN: Oh, yeah. Every time I go, I -- we’ve gone for Christmas, and, you know, it’s 80 degrees out there, and my mom thinks it’s cold. 50 �JJ: And Christmas is the same as the rest of the Puerto Rico there, of course. LN: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So I’ll go -- I wanna go -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: I wanna go to the beach, you know. I wanna go to the beach and just hang out. And my mom’s like, “It’s too cold!” I’m like, “Mom! I come from Chicago.” (laughter) “You know how cold it is in Chicago? I wanna go hang out at the beach! I don’t care if it’s 50 degrees! I’m going to the beach. I can’t come to Puerto Rico and not come to the beach.” And [01:06:00] Mami’s so protective, like, “Oh, no te vayas, stay here with the kids, watch the ocean, watch the waves.” You know, the beach is so beautiful, you can walk, literally, for about 100 feet and you will never go deeper than this here. And then the water’s so warm, to me, it is. And clear as day. Pretty, pretty. But, you know, my mom’s like, “Oh, don’t go out there!” But, you know, Puerto Rican women, to her, she’ll prepare me a lunch bag, like, you know, [jata?], she’ll boil the [jatas?], and do the bread, the whole thing. (Spanish) [01:06:31] She’ll make it for me. And then she wants to know what I want for dinner. (laughter) That night. Right after I had breakfast. You know? (laughter) And she’s always protective. But no, I gotta go to the beach, and just hang out. It’s so pretty, if you get a chance, go and visit. Stay for a couple days, stay as long as you want. Not much of a nightlife there, you know, if you want the nightlife you gotta go to San Juan, pero, Vieques is [01:07:00] very pretty, very quiet. It is a whole different world, and I think now that I’m older, I appreciate it. I’m like, “Man, you know, that’s not a bad little island to go to.” Not so when you’re a teenager, you know, born and raised in 51 �Chicago and you wanna go party and hang out with your boys all the time, you know. (laughter) But I grew up -- I thank my grandparents, I always will. And maybe some of the guys that I grew up with and their parents. They were all always involved in our lives. I have a bunch of friends that I grew up with who are Chicago police guys, detectives now, I have friends who are lawyers, I have friends who are doctors, all from the neighborhood. And that’s a rarity, I think. You know. Because we weren’t given much of a chance, I think, I mean, and even through life, I’m sure everybody’s faced their own discrimination to some extent. But could you imagine if we [01:08:00] would’ve been given an opportunity? If we would’ve been accepted more? I mean, I’m just giving you a sampling of the guys that I know. There’s those guys that went the other way, who never got that chance, for whatever reason. They got involved with other things. But the guys that I grew up with? Those guys are -- they’re like my brothers, they’re friends for life, and I think that, you know, my parents and my grandmother and my grandfather were always involved in our lives. That allowed us to continue to know that education was key. And you gotta stay in school, and all that stuff, you know. And the guys, again, I mean, you hear stories about guys, and you go to west side Chicago. Oh yeah, they can tell you how many of their friends have died through gang fight, through gun -JJ: You’re talking about, like, Humboldt Park and stuff like that. LN: No, I’m talk-- I mean west side, I mean -- JJ: And west side. 52 �LN: Even Humboldt Park, you know, west side or even further west, like getting closer to Austin. And you have kids, kids that are barely teenagers -- JJ: ’Cause they were the Puerto Ricans right now, or is that what you’re saying? LN: [01:09:00] No, yeah, most of them are there. But I’m just saying that, you know, the kids out there will tell you, “Hey, I have, I know five or six of my friends who are dead.” Because of gang fights or whatever. The guys that I grew up with, you know, none. I can’t -- I don’t know any one of my friends who were killed in some tragedy like that. The guys that I grew up with. We had a good upbringing in the neighborhood. You know? That whole community on Halsted Street was a good community. I mean, I can go on and on and on about the guys that I know, about what they did. Eventually, you know, some of those guys moved out west, and I think there’s a bigger -- there’s a lot of Puerto Ricans in Humboldt Park, you know that. We bought our building in Humboldt Park, you know. When we moved out of there, I think I lived in Logan Square for one year, and again, the rent was, like, crazy. I had started working already, so I could afford a bigger apartment, but then after a while, I’m like, you know, the rent -- that building got sold, to a Spanish guy, but he wanted to jack the rent up 150 bucks, I’m like, [01:10:00] “I can’t pay 950 for a two-bedroom apartment.” And I looked, and I’m like, “I could pay a mortgage for 100 more dollars.” So we bought a building in Humboldt Park, a three-flat. Which we still have to this day. Maybe it’s because I’m thinking, “I’m not selling!” (laughs) I’m not selling because I know what happened to Halsted Street, you know, when these guys had a house that they bought for 10,000, somebody came and offered them 100 and now 53 �they’re gone. Humboldt Park’s changing too. I mean, you could see it if you go there. When I moved in, then, it was a whole different neigh-- it wasn’t Halsted Street. Humboldt Park, when I lived there, when I bought it in 1992, ’93, was definitely, you know, a different world than from what I grew up in Halsted. You’re talking gangs that I would see. You could see the guy smoking weed on the street. You know. Humboldt Park was definitely a different world from the Hals-JJ: And what year was this? LN: This was ’90s. In the ’90s. JJ: In the ’90s. LN: Yeah. JJ: You know, they were similar to Halsted in the beginning. LN: Is that right? JJ: Yeah, [01:11:00] that was a change during that time. LN: Yeah. Well, (inaudible) JJ: That I recall. But I -- LN: No, no, no, and that’s good. JJ: That’s what you recall. LN: Exactly, I mean, that’s what I remember from my Halsted. My Halsted -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) you saw gangs, and (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: My Halsted Street, I didn’t see -- I mean, again, we saw some of that, but not on the block that I grew up. Humboldt Park, when I moved, that was -- I mean, there 54 �you saw it everywhere. Everywhere. I mean, you still see it today. Not as much, but you still s-JJ: So it wasn’t, like, really, like, a close-knit community, or anything. LN: I don’t think so. But I’m talking about, I had just moved into Humboldt Park. I knew that Puerto Ricans lived there... JJ: So how was it not? LN: Well, the block that I live in, and I tell people, it’s, like, probably one of the best kept secrets in Humboldt Park. It’s a dead end street, no pun intended, but it’s Thomas Street that butts up against an alley. It’s not a through street where you have cars driving in all the way all the time. You don’t have drive-bys on that block, you know. When I moved in, yeah, you had your guys that were, you know, you could tell who’s who, and who’s probably trouble, and who’s in a gang, [01:12:00] and who wasn’t. I fit in, ’cause I was Puerto Rican, and my wife’s Puerto Rican, and, you know, we lived on the block with a bunch of Puerto Ricans. And you saw families -- JJ: What is your wife’s name? Is that okay? LN: Flor. Flor Neris. JJ: Flor. LN: Yeah. JJ: (inaudible) (laughs) LN: Yeah, Flor Neris. And we lived on the block, and it was just her and I, and we had the building, and we rented the two apartments, and it helped us pay for the mortgage. 55 �JJ: And you have kids, too, or? LN: Now I have kids, yeah. JJ: What are their names? First names -- LN: Jeneli, Jaidelis, and Luis. Again, I gotta follow family tradition. My papi’s Angel -actually, Papi’s Angel Luis, I’m Angel Luis also. And my son is Luis Angel. I kinda changed it up a little bit. But yeah, I have the three kids now, pero, but Hal- Humboldt Park was different because you had, I didn’t know the families. I mean, I was already an adult. And then, you’re the new kid on the block, moving in. You know, you’ll make friends. I mean, I met Don Vicente from across the street, I met Eliot next door who works for the IRS. (laughs) Vicente’s wife works for the school, my buddy Leon down the [01:13:00] street is a retired police officer, his wife was a schoolteacher. So you met those people and you got good people on the block, and it’s a really good block. Some people rent, you know, and you have your Section 8 folks living in the neighborhood, and you have other people who don’t care much for what they rent, or maybe the owner doesn’t care as long as he’s getting his rent, who don’t live in the building. I don’t live in my building either. Listen, I don’t wanna say, “Hey,” I’m not gonna start throwing any stones. But I’m a little bit more picky when it comes to my tenants. I would rather have somebody who’s gonna pay me less, but have a good tenant, as opposed to jacking the rent up, where, you know, who knows who I’m gonna get just because I want 100 extra bucks. You know. I pass by my building all the time, it’s like I live there, so my tenants know. You know? And they’re good, the people on the block, they’re kinda watching out. I think it still needs time, you 56 �know, it still needs time. Humboldt Park is not that idyllic, great neighborhood [01:14:00] that you have -- I mean, listen, anywhere you go, you’re gonna get in trouble. Trouble can find you anywhere. Whether you live in Lincoln Park, whether you live in Wicker Park, whether you live in Humboldt Park, it’s gonna find you. The block that I live in? It’s different from Lincoln Park, it’s just that I didn’t grow up there, and although we’ve had the building 20-plus years, you know, I like to believe that it’s a nice little block. Not too far from Haddon, which is where one of the Calistos lives. (laughs) And then you have the other side of the park. And I haven’t gone to much of the other side of the park, ’cause I lived, you know, Kedzie and Thomas is where the building is at. JJ: You’re on Kedzie and Thomas? LN: Yeah. But, you know, it’s a great neighborhood. I loved it. The only reason I moved out was because of what I do. You know, I wanted the big house. I wanted the big backyard. I didn’t have a backyard in Humboldt Park, I had an alley. (laughs) And a two-car brick garage. I want my kids to [01:15:00] play outside, I want my kids to grow up in a nice, safe neighborhood. Again, anywhere it can find you, but the neighborhood where I live now, it’s kinda like that neighborhood where everybody watches you. It’s amazing. When I went to -- they had a meeting at the school up in Oriole Park in Chicago. How, there were some reports about gang recruiting at Oriole Park. Which is unheard of, it’s a neighborhood where you have just a bunch of professionals living. You know, it’s unheard of, gang recruiting. And they had a meeting, they sent a letter out to all the parents, and I went to this meeting. And it was just amazing, the number 57 �of people that came to that meeting. The parents in the neighborhood. It overflowed. It was just incredible. And I’m like, “Wow!” And this was when I had just first moved in the neighborhood. Had that happened, you know, back in the neighborhood, very few parents showed up. I know I remember the parents from my block being at the PTA meetings, or the [01:16:00] meeting with the police commander of the area, but over there, it’s because so many people were involved, and I’m like, “Wow!” This is good, it’s a good thing, you know? You’re getting involved with the neighborhood. It was good. And so, it’s a nice neighborhood. I mean, I’m giving my kids an opportunity, and it’s okay with me. Now, after they’re gone, I mean, I’d probably move back to Humboldt Park, I kinda like Humboldt Park, you know? There’s a difference between -- I’ll never forget the first night we lived in our house. I’m looking out the window, and my wife tells me, “What are you doing? Que te hace (Spanish) Puertorriqueno.” [01:16:34] [01:16:35] I’m like, “This is too quiet, it’s eerily quiet.” You know, in Humboldt Park, you look out the window, people, “Ay, (inaudible)!” They’re screaming and stuff, bom bom, you know? Neighborhood where I live is like, “This is crazy, it’s too quiet, man!” (laughter) Like, “No!” Anyway, it’s just a different neighborhood, you know? And then, maybe I’m coming full circle, coming to the neighborhood. ’Cause the neighborhood where we have, we don’t have parrandas. But [01:17:00] we have walks. (laughs) For Christmas. In the neighborhood, it’s crazy, it’s mostly an Anglo neighborhood. Very few Puerto Rican families. But we make coquito for Christmas. And the entire block wants it. They have street party -- street -- 58 �JJ: What’d you put in -- LN: Block parties. JJ: What’d you put in the juice? (laughter) LN: Hey -- JJ: [Mixed up?]. LN: Exacto. They have block parties. In the summer. It’s great, I mean, you have the entire neighborhood come out. They do stuff for the kids, they do a bike parade at 12:00, they got music, they got, you know, jumping things, they got, the pump is open, it’s, like, awesome. And my wife makes limber. And the kids, little Anglo kids, come over and they want more and more, Flor makes batches of ’em, and they absolutely love it. And, you know, when we had the Christmas walk, similar to our [01:18:00] parranda, they’re caroling here, but it’s just a couple of families, you know, about, almost half the block did it, and you get three houses. That one house, you know, you’re at the Johnsons’ house from 7:00 to 8:00. You’re at the Gonzalezes’ house from 8:00 till 9:00. And it’s just hors d’oeuvres, just hanging out, adults only. And they just walk, you know, from house to house. No music, but you’re just hanging out, and it’s kinda cool. We made the ponche coquito one year, and they absolutely loved it, so now every year, we gotta do it. You know. And they loved it. It’s our culture mixing with their culture, and it’s a good mesh. We get along, I love all my neighbors, absolutely. And it’s that neighborhood that I remember from when I was growing up, that maybe protective little block on Halsted Street. That, you know, probably my parents and my grandmother, or my grandparents, saw the trouble, but they kinda 59 �shielded it away from us, and now we’re in a neighborhood where it’s [01:19:00] kinda something similar, and anybody who’s suspicious that comes in the neighborhood, I mean, first of all, you’d have to be crazy, ’cause nothing but cops and firemen live up there. You know? (laughs) Does it happen? Absolutely. I tell you, trouble will find you anywhere. And, you know, it just -- today’s life, so. JJ: And, can you kind of, in general, describe the type of work that you do? You said fraud? -- LN: Yeah, I do investigative work for -- JJ: I mean, if it’s okay to describe, I don’t wanna (inaudible) LN: I’d just like to keep it general. (laughs) JJ: Yeah, just keep it general. LN: Yeah, just general. Yeah, we just investigate white-collar crime. Yeah, and, you know, it’s a good job. JJ: Like businesses, or? LN: Businesses, individuals, you know, you name it. Yeah. Pretty much, you know, it’s, today’s day and age, politicians, whatever. JJ: Okay, so there’s -- is there a lot more today or something? That became a business now, now that becomes a -- fraud is a business, or? LN: Oh, absolutely. I mean, I got job security for my -- JJ: I’m not trying to (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: No -- JJ: I’m not trying to (inaudible) I’m just trying to -- 60 �LN: No, I mean, [01:20:00] there’s some work out there to be done. I mean, again, it’s nothing new. It’s just that, you know, with the economy nowadays, people get a lot more creative. You know? (laughter) We just gotta keep up with technology. I mean, we got a lot of resources that are disposable, and it’s just, fraud is always gonna be around, you know. I mean, listen, we live in Chicago, I think, I don’t know if state of Illinois still has the title of the most corrupt state in the nation, you know, it’s just... I think it’s just that they get caught. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Everybody does it, I think everybody does it -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) [couple going or something?] -- LN: (laughs) I think we have the state where people get caught. I mean, I think it happens everywhere, you know. So, but yeah, it’s an interesting line of work, something -- JJ: So you actually are investigating this kind of thing? LN: Not this thing, but fraud. (laughter) JJ: No, no, I just -- LN: No, you make it sound like -- no, I’m not investigating anything here. JJ: I mean the fraud, [I mean?] you’re investigating fraud, that’s what I mean. LN: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, mostly white-collar stuff, yeah. So anything to do with white-collar. (laughter) [01:21:00] I’d like to keep it at that, you know, so. And it’s interesting, though, and it’s interesting, though. JJ: Some final thoughts, what do you think we need to really stress about Marcano, like, your life -- 61 �LN: Yeah, you know what, again, you asked me for my Lincoln Park, and I gave you what I remember. I was just a kid there. You know. If, you know, you’re smart enough, you can figure this how you want it to go, and I think you’re on the right track. What I would like, though, is the stuff that Marcano left for me. Because he was a good man. He was. And he meant to do well. And he left the stuff for me... I have it, I’m glad I had the conversation with Freddy Calisto not too long ago, because we were [01:22:00] talking about it and I said, “Hey, I got a bunch of stuff at the house, man. You know? And it’s just sitting there.” And I couldn’t get rid of it, because Marcano left it for me. He specifically told me, “You (inaudible) I’m gonna leave this for you, ’cause I know,” you know, he left it to me for a reason. And I don’t know if maybe, just, fate that you... Freddy knew about what you were doing, and I had the stuff, and you know, we’re coming together. And I got the pictures at the house, I wanna make sure that you get, because I think his story needs to be told, and there’s no better story that you’re gonna get than from the tapes and the audios. ’Cause there’s audios here, of everything he did, you got a lot of work here, man. (laughs) You know? There’s a lot of -countless hours of tape, and you got música, he’s got everything in there. And I think this is probably something that’s gonna, you know, do your project good. And again, I -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) the best thing that we could do is to make it public for the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Absolutely, absolutely. And again, you know, listen, I -- 62 �JJ: For research -- other researchers, and other people that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) LN: Absolutely. If they ever need to [01:23:00] get in touch with me, you know, I’ll give you whatever I remember. If I can find stuff at home, some more, I, you know, I think it’s a -- when he passed away, I thought it was a shame that he didn’t -- it did not get played more here, in Chicago. Because he was a pillar here. He was a pillar of the community. You’ll see for yourself, when you see the tapes, if you get a chance to see the tapes, and see the pictures and stuff, the kinda stuff that he did. I mean, he got black and white photos, that I have at home, and I apologize I didn’t get them to you, but I’m gonna definitely make sure. I’m off today, so I’m gonna get home, start getting the pictures, putting ’em on a disc, and I’ll definitely make sure you get ’em, ’cause I think it’s important. This is perfect, this is perfect, what you’re doing. Especially, like, the Lincoln Park community, you know, it’s like. So that’s what I would like. I mean, you know, he’s the one that deserved the credit. I was just, you know, again, part of the Puerto Rican mom and dad that came here, looking for a [01:24:00] better life. JJ: Well, that’s important, so that it’s a, oral histories of different people, so. LN: Yeah, absolutely. JJ: And you’re familiar with that being, you know, going through the college scene and all that, so. LN: Yeah, absolutely. So, yeah, he -- JJ: So you know what we’re doing, I mean, it’s clear what we’re trying to do. 63 �LN: Good. And I’m glad, I’m thankful for that, because it’s almost like a forgotten story. And I don’t know if anybody’s taken time to document it, you know, and obviously you’re doing it -- Marcano did, but he wasn’t around long enough to make sure that -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Way before that. LN: -- to make sure that -- JJ: Way before we even thought about documenting, he was doing it, so that’s really great. LN: Yeah, yeah, exactly. JJ: That’s what’s great about that. LN: That’s what I said, and it’s funny, I made that analogy about the wire thing. He made camellos for the Three Kings Day. He made a lechón, I remember he called it El Batey, the restaurant was called El Batey, and he made un lechón en una varita, and the pig was made out of wire and covered in some fabric that he colored brown to make it look like an actual pig, with an apple in its mouth, and, you know, [01:25:00] and the two sticks. I mean, it’s -- I think there’s a picture, at home, of the restaurant, you know. (laughs) He made the stuff, it was just crazy, just to think that I was driving the other day and I thought about the snowmen and the reindeers that are being made and being sold in stores. Stuff he was making (laughs) way back when. And documenting the stuff, you know? Documenting it. And I’m glad that I got an opportunity to meet you and that, you know, hopefully this -- JJ: Appreciate it. 64 �LN: -- will have some stuff for you guys that will help you get along in your project, man. I really do. I really do. JJ: I appreciate it. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. LN: No problem. Anytime. END OF VIDEO FILE 65 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5d4496b6234c5647994459293151e198.mp4 dacd1107d6455c29107f2001ac76368c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Luis Neris vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Luis Neris, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 12/14/2012 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Neris_Luis Title A name given to the resource Luis Neris video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Neris, Luis Description An account of the resource Oral history of Luis Neris, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 12/14/2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-12-14 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/efc8fba0e6d7b736fd5a888e294b1d46.pdf 1cc0325667af03435784a4a99e16efbd PDF Text Text Young   L ords   In  Lincoln  Park   Interviewee:  Bob  Lee  (Robert  E.  Lee)   Interviewers:  Jose  Jimenez   Location:  Grand  Valley  State  University  Special  Collections   Date:  2/16/2017   Runtime:  01:49:38       Biography  and  Description               Bob  Lee  or  Robert  E.  Lee  like  the  confederate  general  is  from  Houston,  Texas  where  he  did  his  oral   history  interview.  He  grew  up  in  the  “forest”  near  Jasper,  TX.  His  family  worked  on  a  cotton   plantation.  One  of  his  brothers  Franco  became  a  county  commissioner  of  the  5th  Ward  of  Houston   for  over  30  years.  In  1969  Bob  Lee  became  a  Deputy  Field  Marshall  for  the  Illinois  Chapter  of  the   Black  Panther  Party.  His  worked  included  Uptown  where  he  started  working  with  the  Young   Patriots  Organization.  This  was  a  Southern  White  group  who  sported  the  confederate  flag  but   worked  against  racism.  Bob  Lee  was  trying  to  bring  them  closer  to  the  Panthers.   The  Young  Lords  had  begun  working  with  the  Illinois  Black  Panthers  in  mid  -­‐February,  the  day  after   they  had  entered  the  second  floor  and  briefly  “occupied”  the  18th  Police  District  Workshop  Meeting   to  protest  repression.  It  received  media  coverage  and  Chairman  Fred  Hampton  came  to  the  next  day   to  the  street  corner  of  Dayton  and  Armitage  to  meet  with  the  Young  Lords  leader,  Jose  (Cha-­‐Cha)   Jimenez.  Fred  and  Cha-­‐Cha  were  arrested  twice  that  same  month  and  charged  with  mob  action   along  with  Obed  Lopez  and  his  Latin  American  Defense  Organization  which  was  picketing  the   Wicker  Park  Welfare  Office.  They  were  attempting  to  form  a  welfare  union  with  both  caseworkers   and  recipients.   �On  April  5,  1969  Fred  Hampton  asked  Cha  -­‐  Cha  to  join  with  William  (Preacherman)  Fesperman  and   the  Young  Patriots  in  a  Rainbow  Coalition  of  the  three  groups.  Though  the  original  founding  was   informal,  between  the  Black  Panthers,  Young  Patriots  and  Young  Lords,  there  were  several  press   conferences  held  in  Chicago  and  in  other  cities  later.  The  coalition  was  more  mass  and  symbolic   with  the  goal  of  being  more  inclusive  and  bringing  more  groups  into  the  coalition  such  as:  I  Wor   Keum,  the  Red  Guard,  the  Brown  Berets,  AIM  and  SDS.   �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: There it is. Okay. ROBERT LEE: You know who I would like to meet before? Miss Katz, Marilyn Katz, yeah, I would like just to say hello to her. JJ: Yeah. RL: Yeah, Marilyn Katz. HY THURMAN: JJ: Yeah? I got her number. Are we recording? RAY: Yeah. That already (inaudible). JJ: Yeah, at least to me. FAIZA: Only from the back? HT: Hey, man. How you doing? R: Yeah, there you go. That’s good. JJ: (inaudible) RL: Okay. Well, y’all want me to do, to tell? JJ: No, I’m just going to ask a few questions, whatever. R: I’m not asking nothing. JJ: You’re not asking no questions? I’m going to ask some questions because this is an oral history about your life. So, tell me where you were born. Start with your name and where you were born. RL: Okay. My birth name? JJ: Yeah. 1 �RL: My dad named me Robert E. Lee, Jr., III, okay? And that’s like naming [00:01:00] a Jewish kid Adolf Hitler in Germany. And I didn’t know. You know, I’m six, seven years old. I didn’t know about Hitler or the Holocaust, things like that. So, you know how when you go to school, you’re in the first grade, it’s your first day, and everybody stand up and introduce themselves? So, we go on down the line. Little girl says, “My name is Judy Johnson.” And they go, “What’s your name, little boy?” “My name is Harold Jones.” Get to my name, this lady’s name was Mrs. Walker, the teacher. When they got to me, you know, I’m Robert E. Lee III after my grandfather and my daddy, so I assumed [00:02:00] that that was a great name, you know? I assumed it. So, Cha Cha, when I stood up and said, “My name is Robert E. Lee., Jr., III,” the teacher looked at me. I knew then that I had done something wrong. She had no smile, so she said, “Robert E. Lee, Jr., III, after class, I just want to speak to you for a minute.” I said, “Yes, ma’am.” So, she went around the circle, and by the end of first day, she sent all the kids out kinda early. So, at that time, our internet was an encyclopedia. It wasn’t what we do now. So, I’m a little boy, little ol’ bitty thing, and we sat beside the bookshelf. She pulled that L bookshelf up, Cha Cha, [00:03:00] pulled the L up in the encyclopedia, pulled that page out, and she thumbed through till she found Lee. Now, at first, I didn’t see Lee. I saw that horse, you know, a traveler. You know, my background is ponies clubs and ranches and rodeos. JJ: What do you mean, ranches? RL: Yeah, that’s my thing. JJ: Oh, you do that? 2 �RL: Yeah. Yeah, I’ve organized rodeos in East Texas, (inaudible) rodeos, racer rodeos. So, when she started telling me all the history, but they never really, in that encyclopedia, mentioned the Holocaust. Yeah, we found that out later when Adolf Eichmann was arrested. So, I went home pissed, okay? [00:04:00] They did talk about Hitler, what he did, the war, millions of people being killed. So, dad came home, and I’m waiting on him, man. Because I finally got him. (inaudible) got it, because when you’re that young, you was a hassle for your daddy (inaudible) go about. So, I told dad. Dad said, “Okay, Junior. Okay,” he said, “but wait until I die.” I said, “That’s a deal.” So, he chose my name for me, which is Robert Alwalee. That means to be a friend, the organizer of people’s affairs. And the positive side of this, being named [00:05:00] Robert E. Lee, one night I’ll ride -- I’m thinking I’m in my community now. One night, me and a girlfriend and I and are riding down Cavalcade, and this is the positive side of that name, and I saw it clearly. In Houston, being a Southern city, you didn’t have to have a high school diploma, a college degree to be a cop in the South. So, I got a pocketful of weed, and back then, you could go to prison for one joint, you know, forever. So, I’m speeding, and a light come on, and I knew this was it. And the law, I told the girl that was driving, I said, “Take the car home.” [00:06:00] So, when the cop got out the car, walked towards me, he said, “Boy, gimme your driver’s license.” So, I handed him my driver’s license. He looked at my name. He said, “God damn, boy. This is a damn good Southern name, boy. Boy, slow this car down now,” and he gave me my driver’s license back. That’s when I saw the positive side, you know, because I aiming to get jobs. I might apply for a dishwasher job, 3 �and I’ll get a call the next day that I was hired. And that’s how I pretty much got it, man. When I came to Chicago, I came there as a VISTA volunteer. When I came to Chicago, I came as a VISTA. JJ: From where did you come? [00:07:00] RL: When? JJ: Yeah, from where did you come and when? RL: Oh, here? JJ: To Chicago. RL: Oh, okay. I had a scholarship, a track scholarship. I ran track at Southern University after high school, and I got tired of running because the movement was really drawing me then. Rap Brown used to come on the campus in Baton Rouge to talk us as athletes, the role that we could play in the movement, because Ali and them were stepping out there. Jim Brown was stepping out there. So, I walked on the track field, and part of mine was doing recruiting for VISTA, so I figured everything out, but I went out to Oakland to visit my relatives out there. Then [00:08:00] I got a job working at the recreation center for the handicapped. See, that’s my strength, wheelchair basketball, archery for the blind, baseball for the blind. I could coach those things. Then, all of a sudden, about six months after being there, I got this notice that I was accepted into VISTA by Jane Addams Training Center. And I had to think about that, but when I was – flew out, and I was living in Training Jane Addams, and I lived in [ICMY?]. JJ: Oh, at the [ICMY?], Actually, that’s where we were at when we were a gang, the Young Lords. 4 �RL: Let me get to that. JJ: Okay, let’s get to that. RL: Let me get to that. That’s when I was first (inaudible), [00:09:00] not physically or personally, but where I worked for Methodist Youth Services as a VISTA. I lived there as a VISTA. That’s where I would first hear the word, “Young Lord.” Matter of fact, that was the first time I would meet any so-called gang in Chicago is first the Lords. And see, me, I’m thinking when you say Latino in South, the Lords was a Rainbow Coalition just by itself. And so, what happened, my mother was talking to Bobby Seale’s -- oh, yeah, come on, babe. Sit down. JJ: Yeah, we’re just having a conversation. RL: Yeah, my mother was talking with Bobby Seale’s [00:10:00] mother. See, Bobby Seale is my second cousin. JJ: Oh, Bobby Seale is your second cousin? RL: Uh-huh. See, Bobby was born in Jasper. That’s his home, Jasper, Texas. So, when my mother got talking with Mrs. Seale, she asked me to go see about Bobby, you know, because apparently there’s some information, which I did. And that’s where I would meet Fred and Rush, and see, you guys was already evolving. And then later, what happened, as you know, Mike Gray and them was -- I’ll put it this way. When I joined the party, my name Robert E. Lee [00:11:00] changed to Bobby Lee, you know? JJ: Yeah, at that time, I knew you by that. I knew that story. RL: Our press got Luis Cuza. We had our first conference, Captains, Patriots, Lords, as the [picture that?] (inaudible). Luis Cuza was there that day. 5 �JJ: Luis Cuza was there, yeah. But that was more like in April at that time, around April, because I think we met Fred in February. And then I remember we went to jail a couple times at the Lincoln Park welfare office. And then later on, that’s when everybody got together with the Rainbow Coalition, in April. RL: That’s right. The next morning, my name went from Robert E. Lee, Jr. to Bobby Lee. JJ: Yeah, I remember that, because we were hanging out only in Old Town and all them places. RL: Huh? JJ: We were hanging out in Old Town and on Lincoln Avenue. RL: Yeah, that’s right. That’s as clear -- [00:12:00] JJ: What was that place on Lincoln Avenue? Wasn’t there a -- RL: The [Vieux Carré?]. A place called Vieux Carré. JJ: What’s the name of that? Is it Shiflett? RL: Then they had O’Rourke’s. JJ: O’Rourke’s, but that was in Old Town. But there was one on Lincoln Avenue by Shiflett. RL: I see it. JJ: You see it? RL: I see it. JJ: That’s Shiflett. That’s where we were hanging out. R: Oh, yeah, you mentioned there was a thing underneath it, right? JJ: Right. 6 �R: Or a (inaudible). JJ: No, no, that was on Lincoln Avenue. A lot of the leftists used to go there, and me and you went there a few times. We just met his son the other day. That’s why I mention it. RL: I figure I had to really learn fast about the Young Lord history. That’s when you gave me the history of that great revolutionary. Who’s -- JJ: Albizu Campos. RL: Yes. I remember clearly you was talking to me about it. Later on, [00:13:00] Piri Thomas, Down These Mean Streets, it had just come out, and you had suggested that I read that book. But Campos really impressed me. You either brought the book to me, or I brought the book to you. I don’t remember. JJ: You probably were. You were handing out books to everybody. RL: Yeah. That was the key. JJ: You might’ve gave it to me. RL: Yeah, see, we found our resources. We found every one of our resources by getting out there. The resources ain’t gonna on the door. You gotta go out there. And that’s pretty much the history of it, man, for that name. But I tell people a lot that, well, How to Organize Your Own. There’s a quote in there from [00:14:00] one of the young artists and writers stating that Robert E. Lee came back as a ghost. I’ll never forget that quote that this young man (inaudible). And I think that How to Organize Your Own, it could stand by a Saul Alinsky book, Rules for Radicals. JJ: So, you were using a lot of Saul Alinsky. I remember talking at that time. 7 �RL: Yeah. See, Saul, where he saw our Rainbow Coalition, I mean, our, (laughs) that’s what he failed to do. He wished he could’ve done it. He tried to organize a coalition with the Irish poor from the back of the yard, and he failed. He was able to do Woodlawn, but he couldn’t bring in Woodlawn in connection with the Irish [00:15:00] community because at that time, they’re racist. At that time, many was racist. Yeah, 90 percent, 95 percent of the Chicago police were, and so he always felt bad that he organized [back of y’all?]. JJ: So, what did you feel was the mission of the Rainbow Coalition? RL: The first mission is identify the working-class poor. That’s the first mission. The second mission that Fred and all of us, we discussed with folks in the coalition, what we have in common as a people. [00:16:00] For example, I tell Hy Thurman, I mention to Hy a lot, that the only difference between Black Appalachians and the white Appalachians is just that; one digging coal and the other digging coal together. But see, to this day, I tell my wife a lot when we talk about it, I’d never seen that kind of poverty, man, that we saw at Uptown. I (inaudible) fast to see that the West Side would be considered a middle-class community compared to what was happening in Uptown. [00:17:00] And what I couldn’t understand, the brutality of -- at that time, I couldn’t understand the brutality of whites on whites. I had never seen it in the South. You never see white people screaming at white people, not here in the South. I’ve never seen that. Well, we knew that the Rainbow Coalition had touched a vein in America. That’s why people now are really trying to find us. That’s why people is really trying to find us, Cha Cha. And talking today and yesterday, and brother Hy 8 �agreeing, I think we should have a conference, [00:18:00] a Rainbow Coalition conference, but not to have it in Chicago; have it on the campus of Ole Miss. I just gave Professor [McCann?] some contacts, well, contacts he had given me, but we should have a conference that’s on campuses that attracts that young student today. So, that’s what we were chatting about. He called Tracy and gave Tracy the idea because that whole racist thing here in the last -- what’s the guy’s name? HT: (inaudible) RL: All the politicians, [00:19:00] right-wing politicians who wanted to announce their campaign started to (inaudible) they’ll always kick it off (inaudible). So, we should have a conference, you know, this year, next year, very well organized. We know how to do that. But to attract students from, not just students, but you want that core of young students, white, Black, Hispanic, Latino, to attend it, have the books, films, and start a third party because that’s what we want, man. I didn’t realize that till later, but that was David and them’s fear, a third party. We had it, because after the Rainbow Coalition [00:20:00] in Chicago, Cha Cha Jiménez run for Alderman, and that was a seed when you ran. And that seed now has grown. In a sense, we owe -- I’ll do it this way, the regular Rainbow Coalition, then we talk about the first time the coalition was tested, Cha Cha Jiménez, Bobby Rush (inaudible) he ran for that. Then, Harold Washington, that’s where it was successful. Then, Rush, US Congressman. Then, a man named Barack Obama. You can’t be in Chicago, man, for 15 years and not [00:21:00] have seen (inaudible) Fred Hampton, period. Can’t do it. So, it’s 9 �already, what we are doing now is already evolving to a third party. My man was Sanders, Bernie Sanders, in the beginning. He talked more like me. And you remember when Bernie, when they took the camp, that they had that strike on campus? Was it University of Chicago, they had that strike? Bernie led that strike against the administration. JJ: University of Chicago? RL: Yeah. Bernie and they locked the doors and everything. Nobody could get in, and so that was Bernie Sanders. Fred and I went down there, but we couldn’t get in. [00:22:00] They wouldn’t let us in. Come on. Oh, yeah, come on, man. So, we, in a sense, we’re already a third. I cited the third party. After the Rainbow Coalition, the next seed became you, for growth for a movement. Then, Harold Washington, and I’m just being redundant, Harold Washington. JJ: But I think when I ran, it was more a mass group. I mean, it was the Rainbow Coalition, but we were not like an organization. We were like a mass movement. RL: Right. JJ: So, did you see the Rainbow Coalition like that? RL: That’s exactly right, because see, now what we’re talking about is disorganizing and reorganizing. [00:23:00] Hy Thurman, [the chip?], that one like [move of?] a body, and others of course. Our power base here in Houston is based on the Rainbow Coalition. See, Precinct One, we’re a minority Precinct One, and it’s 900,000 people in Precinct One. Most folks think Precinct One is all Black. It’s not. We’re a minority. 10 �JJ: Same with my campaign, we had to do that. That’s why we had to (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). RL: Yeah, man. That’s right. But see, what I was able to do, in the South, it really was hard for a lot of Black Southerners to work with many of the, well, Southerner period, because media had made the Southern accent a negative sound, [00:24:00] you know, like media has done to -- the show, The Beverly Hillbillies. That’s a stereotype. We’re at that point now that our children have a different attitude about life and people. But Precinct One, what I did, I went into the precinct where the white working class was, and my brother Franco said, “Yeah, you go.” But I took that hell, and they were right. The Black politicians ignored our Southern white brothers, but my thing, that it’s all about the working class in this country. I’m a Socialist. [00:25:00] I’m not a Democrat. I vote like a Panther. I’ll always be a Panther, like you’ll always be a Lord. Hy definitely going to be the white Panther. All Lords stay the same. JJ: So, what was your role in the Black Panther Party, your title and your function? RL: Huh? JJ: In the Black Panther Party in Chicago, what was your title and your function? What did you do? RL: Deputy field marshal. The night that I would meet Hy and all those guys, I was a section leader, but, you know, I never told Fred what I was doing for about two weeks, [00:26:00] because see, the party was just started, and a lot of the brothers had those strong racist tendencies at that time. You know, Dr. King got killed, the bombings, church bombings. Then the media would just blow it up 11 �with those accents, you know, Southern white accent. A lot of Panthers left the party because of that, but many came back also. It’s all the education process. So, you include people. You don’t slam the door on people. Let ’em talk about why they don’t wanna work with a white Southerner. Let ’em talk about why they don’t wanna work with a Puerto Rican. Let ’em blow it out. That’s what you do; allow them to express themselves. And it could take a week [00:27:00] (inaudible), but I think a mass conference would work well because we have all this new technology. We have all the books there. But the Ole Miss could be assembled today because this is where all people get lynched, burned, and bombed over wanting to go to college. JJ: I think that’s a good idea. We need to connect what’s going on Puerto Rico with it. RL: Yeah, well, see, I’m finna ride with that one. I’m with the people that shot at -what was the president’s name then? Who was that group of Puerto Ricans? JJ: Oh, Rafael Cancel Miranda and Lolita [00:28:00] Lebrón. RL: Yeah. I was very impressed with that. JJ: Oh, at that Blair? They shot up the Blair House. RL: Yeah. I don’t support the theory of any colony, not at all, but that’s got to be an issue. It’s got to be an issue. That’s why I was saying the college campuses. It’s time for -- we know why they killed Campos. We know why it’s a form of slavery, the colonies are. And that’s real key. We can’t ignore Puerto Rico because if we’re all warriors, then we all go fight in Puerto Rico also. 12 �JJ: And it’s an issue that’s going on today, I mean, with the Fiscal [00:29:00] Control Board. For us, it’s a big issue. It’s a major issue today. RL: I’ve been keeping up with it for years. JJ: Same thing we -- yeah. So, it’s a good idea. I think we need to work on that. I think it’s a good idea, and I think Ole Miss is good. It has to do with racism. We were fighting racism, so it has to do with that. RL: Mm-hmm. See, it’s perfect historically for world shame, but in particular here, we’re such a young nation, we can(’t) disorganize and reorganize. We’re such a young nation compared to England, France, Sweden. Historically, the Young Patriots already have a root also, and now you have the growth that’s going on in Ireland. We’d be amazed of the support [00:30:00] that the Young Patriots would be given by fine people that lived in Ireland. And also, they realized also because the Irish was just -- well, they’re around here, as you know. They joined, many of them -- and I’ve told people this. Many of the brothers joined it for that meal. They had been around (inaudible) months come across that water, weeks, weeks, weeks. And when they arrived, anyone who had a plate of food, if it was Washington, D.C. had a plate of food, clean clothes, or if it was the Confederacy who had a place, they didn’t have no slaves, right? [00:31:00] Then you got the Asian brother. He’s definitely a part of that coalition because when we looked at what he was oppressed, today you got a young youth that are in the movements, young. You got young Asians, young Chinese, Japanese, that once they’re educated, they will [form?] folks just from the point of view that they were 13 �about their rights also. But the real deal is us who’s sitting in here. We’re alive, man. We ain’t dead. JJ: This is the oral history, so I want to ask you, what was your father’s name, mother’s name, and any brothers or sister? RL: Yes, that’s a good one. All right, that’s my mom’s picture. Get that frame, that [00:32:00] big frame over there, Cha Cha. You’ll see my mom. You see, that’s what I look at at night before I go to bed. That’s my family. HT: This one? RL: All right, of my mom. Yeah. That’s my mother. JJ: Yeah. Hold on one second. Thanks, Hy. I appreciate it. RL: Now, she was born in Jasper, Texas, and the plantation that owned my people was the Adams Plantation in Jasper. My people were brought here as slaves in about 1832, before it was a state, and then her name is Selma Adams Lee. [00:33:00] And I’m reading -- JJ: You said Jasper? RL: Jasper, yeah, Jasper, Texas. This is the little town that my cousin -- JJ: Oh, so you’re coming home to Texas when you came here. RL: Huh? JJ: You’re coming home to Texas. RL: Oh, yeah. Yeah, man. Yeah, this is home. JJ: And your father was from here too? RL: Hm? JJ: Your father? 14 �RL: Yes. He was from the town way in the Timber Belt called Henderson, Texas, and my father’s -- my ancestors came from a plantation called the Flanagans. No, this is home. JJ: And the Flanagans, that was here too in Texas? RL: Huh? JJ: The Flanagans was here in Texas? RL: Yeah. JJ: What kind of plantation? What kind of vegetables, or was it sugar cane or sugar beets? RL: Huh? JJ: What did they grow on the plantation? RL: Oh, that’s cotton industry. JJ: Cotton industry? Okay. [00:34:00] RL: Yeah. Cotton, sugar cane, that was another, but cotton was definitely the major industry. JJ: Here in Texas? RL: Yes. JJ: Let me know if you get tired, but I think we’re doing good. RL: No, no. I’m not gonna get tired. The Adams family -- I’m sorry, I’m forgetting the names of them. The Flanagan family, very, very wealthy family, even today. JJ: But you grew up here, and what schools did you go to? RL: Yeah. Well, see, I went to school here, but summers, I would spend my time with my relatives. [00:35:00] See, I was the only member of the family that loved 15 �horses, you know, ponies clubs. Now, don’t tell nobody that, okay? (laughter) Ponies clubs, fishing and hunting, you know, I did things like I could fish without a hook, called mud fishing. That’s how deep I go, things like that, hunt. You know, I would go as far as northern Wisconsin to hunt. When I wanted to get a break, when I was in Chicago, when I wanted to get a break from what was happening in Chicago, I would just hit the highway, go straight up north, and I would camp out in the forest, and things like to camp, fish. And I always wore a cowboy hat, even to this day. Ray, pull [00:36:00] them (inaudible) down so Cha Cha can see my grandchildren. R: Okay. Yep. They’re over here? RL: Yeah. Everything is on that -- R: Oh, I see them. Yeah. RL: That’s a (inaudible) get a look at my kids and my wife and everyone, my son. R: These ones here, right? RL: Yeah. All right, yeah, and pull the other one now of her. They’re all there, Ray. R: Okay, hang on. RL: They’re all there. JJ: Point ’em this way. R: Oh, okay. I see them. JJ: Point ’em this way, Ray. R: Oh. Let me just put it on my (inaudible) so you can -- JJ: I can’t -- R: Oh, you can’t see that? 16 �JJ: Yeah. R: Yeah, how about I put ’em here? JJ: Well, yeah. Okay, probably. Okay, I see them better now. R: Okay, hang on. RL: When we would sit and talk about our programs [00:37:00] in Chicago, and two of the major programs that we discussed all the time, as you were doing the same, as Young Patriots was doing the same, how to feed people and free health clinics. My mom, when we -- I’m trying to think. Then we got down to guns. Now, initially, having guns wasn’t a big issue, Cha Cha. That was at the bottom of the list. But Cha Cha, the first raid that we had, the Chicago Police destroyed all our food, all our eggs, bacon. We had everything stored. [00:38:00] JJ: What do you mean, the first raid? You mean there were several? RL: Yeah, we had three raids on our office. The first one, they didn’t think we’d be able to put it back together, so the first one, the image of that raid is in the murder of Fred Hampton, that shootout, that raid. Mike filmed that first one, but the second one and the third, he didn’t have an opportunity to do that one. So, the first one was, it’s kinda embarrassing because when I arrived that morning, when they notified me and everything, I got over there. A little boy about eight years old (inaudible) go, he said, “You niggas ain’t shit.” He said, “Y’all done (inaudible) the white boys to come over here and eat all the cookies, [00:39:00] eat all the ice cream,” because we had storage abilities, “all the orange juice.” He said, “You niggas ain’t shit.” JJ: He was worried about the food, huh? He was worried about the food. 17 �RL: I knew then we had to really get it together now because we were losing our support because Black lives matter; Hispanic lives matter, you know; Patriot lives matter, mattered really then, as it does now, but not like when we came up. So, that’s when discussions of weapons would come in, to defend ourselves. JJ: So, you’re saying that the weapons, the guns were not the priority. RL: No. No, that was not. JJ: The priority was the programs. Is that what you’re saying? RL: Yeah, the programs first. Right. Yeah, man. JJ: I don’t want to put words -- what are you saying? RL: Oh, we couldn’t do that. JJ: Because this is your interview. RL: My quote was -- JJ: I agree with everything you’re saying. RL: I’ll tell the quote. Once they had outvoted me, [00:40:00] then I looked at Fred. I said, “Man, I gotta go home and talk to my momma. I know this shit is finna get serious.” And I drove home, literally, got the car fueled and everything, and drove to Texas. And my brother (inaudible) school, and my mother, of course, was shocked to see me standing there. JJ: So, let me get this straight. So, the focus was in organizing the community through the programs? RL: Yeah, service, service programs. JJ: Service programs? 18 �RL: Yeah. Free health clinic, breakfast program, also legal service. Dennis Connor had that. We wanted that, you know. Those were the things we wanted, groceries for people, because we had made contact with the grocery supply. [00:41:00] I organized what is called a mile square, because you gotta have turf. You’re not overwhelmed. Most organizers will go into a community, but they’ll go in and get overwhelmed by the sight of the environment of the city they’re living in. So, I preferred a mile square. But some people organized four blocks north, four blocks south, four blocks east, or four blocks west, and then they’ll look at the institutions that’s in that community, in those blocks, those little blocks. You really want to find a church because in the weekdays, churches are not using their kitchens, Baptist churches, [00:42:00] that is. They’re not. Or it’s like the Bruce Johnsons here. They’re a good example. They turn their resources seven days a week. So, the Black community, if you have four blocks north, south, east, and west, you want to first look for the churches. That’s first, the ministers, and talk with them. JJ: Bruce Johnson, when he died, when he was killed -- RL: When he was killed. JJ: How did you see that at that time? RL: It’s still paining me today, man. They killed him and his wife, man. All of this that we’re talking about is like yesterday to me, and to you. It’s still painful today, man. He was such a [00:43:00] kind man. No matter what it was, we do know that there is an unsolved murder of a minister and his wife for serving people. That much, I know. And I think about Bruce every day. Only an ex-Panther 19 �would forget about Bruce Johnson and Manny Ramos, Rodolfo. I can’t do it, you know. JJ: Because you know, they were also trying to blame the Young Lords. RL: Yeah. Right. But I knew better than that. JJ: And here we were, the victims. RL: Yeah, I knew better than that. And then the more I started learning of the role of the Red Squad, [00:44:00] they’ll do anything to people who -- the Red Squad was like a little informal CIA, snipers, assassins, because Fred Hampton’s (inaudible), that happens, you know? And so, that’s with me. That’ll always be with me, man. JJ: Now, what about Fred Hampton, Chairman Fred Hampton? After his death and that, what happened to the party in Chicago? RL: Psychologically, it died. That would’ve been like losing you. I’m using the word “psychologically,” but the spirit of the movement died with Fred. [00:45:00] It changed. Huey, in a sense, took over control of that excitement. See what I’m saying? And Huey called all the leadership out to Oakland. [Shay?] was living out there, Yvonne. Bobby went out there. And then the test also of our coalition was when Bobby Seale ran for mayor. And that’s when it hit me about here in Houston. But the leadership, well, our coalition, we all were leaders in that circle. All of us, you, that coalition [00:46:00] was a coalition of warriors. We didn’t kiss nobody’s ass. See, we all respected each other. We never argued over nothing, man. We never argued over a thing, man. That’s changed with Bobby and Fred, because our coalition was a corps. When you see the corps, the photographs of 20 �our press conferences, you know, Fred was there. Rush was there. You were there. Luis Cuza was there. Hy Thurman was there. And so, to get to my mom, after eating the best meal I’d had of my life, when I left, I wasn’t gonna have no greens and cornbread no more. JJ: That was your favorite, greens and cornbread? [00:47:00] RL: Oh, man, yeah. My wife will tell you, I will wear them (inaudible) out, man. JJ: (laughs) RL: And my mother listened to me, because see, my parents was proud that I was in the Panther Party, no resistance, no resistance. And I’m sure all of us had to talk with our parents. All of us, we had an explanation. We had to have an explanation of what we were doing because it was going to change all their lives and ours also. And when I got ready, (inaudible) getting ready to come back because I left the same day, turned around, came back, but my mother said something that still stayed with me, “If you live by the sword, you’ll die by that.” And then [00:48:00] you look at how Huey Newton died. We tend to forget that he wasn’t shot by no policeman. Well, I’ll tell you what. The boys in Oakland have kinda forgotten that he was shot by a dope dealer. Fred was killed. Rodolfo was killed. JJ: By the police. RL: Right, and Ramos was killed. Danny and John Howard, they were killed by policemen. 21 �JJ: But you know, Rudy Lozano in Chicago was a community leader, and he was killed by a drug dealer as well. So, what do you think? Do you think maybe that could’ve been set up through Red Squad or something? [00:49:00] RL: No doubt in my mind, now. None of us ever thought that we were being (inaudible). We thought that shit happened in Russia, (inaudible) because we had a lot of faith, man. We knew what we were doing, but we didn’t think there was actually some men that -- man, you went through hell. You’re a prime example of that, what they did to you, man, you. JJ: I appreciate it. Now, you were talking about your wife. How long have you been married? What’s her name? RL: Let me start on this one. (laughter) With the background I had politically and historically, if a Black woman wanted to go up the ladder, I’m the last nigga that she gonna want to marry ’cause you ain’t gonna go up the ladder marrying [00:50:00] a guy like me. Now, for the relationship, quiet relationship, they liked it, but they knew I wasn’t going up the ladder. I’m not gonna do it. And so, if I had 100 dollars for every time someone would say to me, “Bobby Lee, Bobby Lee, Bobby Lee, I’m just gonna love you till the day I die, but I just can’t live like this,” now that’s pretty much the quote. I would have 100 dollars for that, man. My wife is a Godsend. Here’s a woman -- JJ: What’s her name? RL: I call her Godsend, my wife. God sent my wife to me, and I’ve always stated -- JJ: Is she Puerto Rican? [00:51:00] 22 �RL: You know, (laughter) that’s a good one. Yeah, I think she got a lot of that Puerto Rican in her. JJ: A little Puerto Rican in her? RL: Yeah. JJ: (laughs) RL: But I tell when my wife and I started dating, people would see us out, but my theory then, with all of that shit, you always go to the left when the crowd’s going to the right, and keep it quiet and everything. But I always emphasized that the reason why she’s Godsent, my wife did not come to Houston, Texas to marry a nigga from Fifth Ward. I always said. Now, that’s a word that’s out of [00:52:00] her vocabulary, by the way. Cha Cha, she made some mistakes for her time. Not one mistake, and she never made it again, because you know, her language is Arabic. Her second language is Swahili. Her third language is English, and her education, degree, is in geography. F: No, just English. RL: Huh? F: English. RL: Yeah, but all them other studies, algebra, and I tell my partners, and they said, “Man, well, how you get along with her?” Blah, blah, blah. I said, “You know how I do it all these years? I know when to close my mouth and breathe through my nose.” JJ: (laughs) 23 �RL: (inaudible) because it’s culture, you know, and she’s been [00:53:00] a lifesaver right up to now. And see, you guys, to her, she’s been hearing about you for years. JJ: You been married how long? RL: How long, babe? F: Fifteen years. JJ: Fifteen? RL: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay, 15 years? RL: Now, for a revolutionary who don’t have no money, and he married someone going up the ladder, that’s a lifetime. Pretty soon, they’ll start saying, “Can we get a loaf a bread?” (laughter) But that’s important that we leave all of our work, like today. It’s going to affect people in a real positive way, man, of what we doing now. It’s going to have that effect. That’s very important because again, we got to remember, it’s a young nation, so we continue. I was [00:54:00] citing the third parties, as I think it is. Abraham Lincoln, that was a third party that eventually became the Civil War and freed us. The next third party would be -what’s my man’s name? What was the name of an organizer, (inaudible)? R: Which one? RL: Yeah, no, no. You know, I was giving the names of the -- R: Oh, yeah, you talked about -- JJ: That’s not Eugene? RL: (inaudible) 24 �R: Debs. JJ: Oh, Eugene Debs, no? R: Eugene Debs. RL: Yeah. All right. Lincoln; Eugene Debs, working-class poor. [00:55:00] R: (inaudible) RL: And then we move up to definitely like Cesar Chavez. It was a possible thirdparty movement, the Chicano movement. And then we move up to the Rainbow Coalition because we really became solid because see, when you ran for -- JJ: Alderman. RL: -- alderman, that was a sign, now, you know. That was a sign. And Barack Obama definitely picked that sign up. That was a sign for us, and it’s a sign for us now, but we got to have the history to lead. [00:56:00] We got to lead the history, man. And so, what we are doing now is very important. For example, I’m organizing in mile square, and I only tell very few people that because organizers are always, you gotta to know who share that with, who to not. And the fact of it is right in your face. Draw your turf, and knock over every door in that turf. And we do that. That’s what we do, and that’s what helped build the Panther Party, really, that mile square. JJ: One of the things that you did, because I remember those letters that we put in the archives, that’s when I saw your wife that first time because you had photos. So, one of the things that you tend to do, and you did that in ’69, [00:57:00] was to give information to everybody you talk to. RL: Yes. 25 �JJ: Why do you do that? RL: So they can make their copies. See, that’s why I call ’em up. The original copies, the originals of my art is at the Phogg Foundation, the South Austin Museum of Popular Art. That’s where all my originals are, the South Austin Museum of Popular Art. They have the originals. Then what I’ll do, I’ll color up. See, I’ll run -- my wife might run, in a week, almost a week, maybe 50 copies, and that’s when I color ’em, make ’em real pretty. Then I send ’em out to activists, politicians, even to Klansmen. See, some people put ’em on the walls, so what happens [00:58:00] is they’ll make their copies. See, they’ll end up running off -- some people, 30, 40, 50 copies. They’ll mail it to their people because everybody at least know 10 human beings, at least, and it’s real brief, and it speaks to them in a real brief way, because people spend thousands of dollars mailing these beautiful brochures and all that that a lot of folks won’t read. So, you gotta have it in folks’ experience. You gotta set the art where they know Cha Cha Jiménez. See what I’m saying? So, that’s why I spend a lot of time sitting and color them. (inaudible) I got my coloring book here. I’ll get up at one. I’ll get up around three o’clock, and then I’ll [00:59:00] go to work, you know, doing coloring. Let Cha Cha see that basket with the -- right there beside you. F: The box? RL: The box, yeah. Show you where I keep my working materials. JJ: And you send them? It’s like a message that you’re sending them? RL: Yeah, see, I’ll personally (inaudible). Yeah, that’s it there. See, I’ll personally -- F: (inaudible) 26 �JJ: I can get that from there? Okay, thank you. RL: So, see, what I do, as you know, is the -- JJ: Is that like a propaganda tool? RL: Yeah, we could use that. [01:00:00] JJ: I mean, what do you call it? RL: It’s a positive propaganda. JJ: It’s positive propaganda? RL: Yeah. It’s a positive. It’s a negative and positive about it. JJ: Do you feel that that reaches people? RL: Man, yeah, I know. Especially in this neighborhood over here, there are people calling, “Hey, man. You mad at me?” (laughs) No, man. We know we know it works in the Fifth Ward. I don’t know outside the Fifth Ward, but it works here, especially maybe a week before an election, when we announce who we run for. And see, our free health clinic is right up the street, so I have all the equipment that I want, copy machines and everything, you know, everything. But no, mostly the people who really profit by it is the working-class poor in Precinct One. And then [01:01:00] I’ll send what I call select pieces, you know, to you or Carol Gray, but 90 percent of them will go out in the Fifth Ward, Jasper, you know. Come on in. Come on in. JJ: And we can still finish it up. Give me some remarks that you want to leave, and then the -- RL: Oh, come on in here. Come in. Give me the poster. This is one of the original organizers. Pull up Cha Cha Jiménez. 27 �F1: I didn’t bring my -- RL: Cha Cha, you got your -- JJ: What? I don’t have a [brochure?]. RL: Huh? JJ: It’s C-H-A like the (inaudible), C-H-A, and then Jiménez is J-I-M-E-N-E-Z. J is like an H. RL: Yeah, he flew in. [01:02:00] JJ: Or you can just look up the Young Lords. That’s the group that we worked with, with the Panthers. F1: The Young Lords? JJ: Yeah, the Young Lords. RL: Did I give you a button? Did I give you any buttons? You got buttons, the Rainbow Coalition button? F1: No. You gave me some papers. RL: Oh. No, give you some buttons. Yeah, the Rainbow Coalition buttons might be over here or might be over there. F1: She has ’em. RL: Now, anybody in the family need some? F1: (inaudible) RL: Nephews? Okay. F1: Thank you. RL: Yeah, Google that right away because for the political arena, before he joined politics, he was the leader of close to 2,000 boys in Chicago, Young Lords. 28 �[01:03:00] Well, he’s like a Puerto Rican Malcolm X. I’ll put it that way. I’ve been knowing him from day one. She had three people in his organization that was killed by the police, you know. F1: Do you live in Chicago now? JJ: I’m actually in Michigan now. I’m in contact with Chicago yeah. RL: You got some pins for her? F: Yes. RL: Yeah, give her the Rainbow Coalition button. She got ’em? F: Uh-huh. RL: Okay. If you want some more, but pull up Cha Cha Jiménez. F1: I remember. RL: Okay. All right. All power to the people. F1: All right. RL: And come up any time you want and chat with me. F1: All right. (inaudible). RL: I’ll never stop organizing. [01:04:00] JJ: (inaudible) We can -- RL: No, no. We have the time (inaudible). Yes, sir, Cha Cha. We (inaudible). Now, since you have to ask me things that you want to know, but like I was saying, if you want to start a novice out in organizing, as you well know, start him out on his own block, but he’s got to identify some resources that he’ll have. He gotta be able to call the community centers, know what they have to offer, food banks, [blawie, blawie?]. So, he contact people, introduce himself, he’ll have a resource 29 �to help him. That’s all we’d do in the communities. Like my wife, she work at Harris County Social Service, [01:05:00] thanks to her brother-in-law being a boss. And she was able to get this job and a degree in it. She taught at Arabic private schools. But no, man, we on a real good roll, man. The only reason this thing won’t roll, we don’t get the information out. We gotta get it out now ’cause Trump is already everywhere, has defined America, and Trump defined it as being white nationalist. And Young Lords, from day one till now, we don’t define that. Our issue is Puerto Rico. Those people that’ll go against [01:06:00] that would be the Hispanic, Spanish, rich ruling class have controlling interests in Puerto Rico, as opposed to the masses, people which is over there. And folks don’t know that. They don’t understand. Many people, that is, don’t understand, man, the pressure of the Puerto Rican people. It’s not them sitting around getting drunk. That’s the energy the media is giving. When they show our brothers there, they kind of sometimes show lavish living. “Why do they want to have a -- they doing good.” You know? But they don’t know about the assassination attempt that was the reason. [01:07:00] That was the reason, but they blow that up. Oh, man. They start out with that assassination attempt. JJ: So, you mean the assassination attempt in -- RL: Huh? JJ: It was in 1950? RL: Right, and Truman, that’s the one they was trying to get. JJ: They focused on that in Puerto Rico? RL: That’s right. 30 �JJ: So, in the Rainbow Coalition, you were organizing that. Were you planning on that, or it just came about? How was that? JJ: No. I was invited to speak at the Church of Three Crosses, me, I forget, me and another Panther. And I accepted to go there. What had happened, the people [01:08:00] that rolled the program out mixed us up for the same program, which that wasn’t no -- God wanted that to happen, okay? And so, when I arrived that night, I was the only Black there, me and that Panther. I was the only Black there, and they didn’t know that I was there because I always felt that you wear the beret and the leather for certain effects. But then you just later put on your everyday clothing. Guys were getting busted in the party for being in the car going to get one of those, which I love them, Polish sandwich, and get [01:09:00] arrested over supper. So, I just tell people, we got Chicago and Oakland Panthers. There’s a big difference in Oakland. You can do that. Berkeley, Cal was that. Cal State was not, you know? But when -- you gonna ask a question? JJ: I gotta turn this off for a second. (break in audio) Okay. So, we were asking what? JJ: How did I meet the Young Patriots? Like I said, it was a lawyer, activist lawyer that invited me to the Church of Three Crosses, and it was still all white. I was the only Black there, me and a guy named Lionel. I think he was from Mississippi. [01:10:00] And so, when I arrived, we sat in the front row, and the Lords had spoken a week earlier, and they invited the Lords to talk. I mean the Young Patriots was invited a week earlier. And then, the committee agreed to it, 31 �and this lawyer then invited me to come. So, we got there the next week. I had never, ever, man, had witnessed white people attacking white people. [01:11:00] I had never seen that. I’m from the South, you know. And there was a lot of confrontation in there. Michael just edited. (inaudible) just edited. See, Michael got almost four decades of filming us here in Jasper, and you know, the projects he had. But I was stunned to see that. It was a change, an evolution, for me to see that. And so, the second time we came, I’m sitting, waiting on Hy and them to finish and Junebug to finish. They (inaudible). They had everything. The only thing they didn’t cover, let’s see, [01:12:00] anything that they were -- shit, they covered everything, police brutality, tenement housing, tuberculosis, welfare. They covered it. They were speaking for me also. So, when things quieted down, the meeting, when it was over, the minister allowed us to go into their chamber to talk, and wonderful meeting, man. Wasn’t no tension, nothing like that, and then that’s when we had an informal structure that was placed together. The biggest issue in Uptown was our issue, or police brutality. And I knew that much [01:13:00] that I should take a role to prove ourselves. That’s first that the warrior must do if you come from another camp. You put yourself out there to show the people that you’re willing to put yourself on the line for them. What’s more bigger than putting your ass on the line with the Chicago Police, you know? But then that’s when we went up to Uptown and came back. This time, I had (inaudible) with me and Ruby with me. And we spent a lot of time up there, but after about two weeks, I knew it was time to tell Fred that they had molded our 32 �relationship. And Fred just naturally just fit into it, and [01:14:00] it’s all history now, you know, all history. JJ: So, you told him, and what was the reaction? RL: Well, Fred already was a Socialist. Fred already had strong ties with the politics of working-class struggle. I had, you know. Now, you had many Panthers that left. They just couldn’t handle it, which I understood that because we’re talking about the ’60s, man, when churches were being bombed, and Dr. King was killed, Malcolm. We spent a lot of time on that, and I understood that. But many came back, as I stated. And it was all a reeducation process. With a Southern white, you start with John Brown, man, then move on up to Lincoln, [Dell Rowe?], [01:15:00] these white boys, and they (inaudible) white boys. But you saw with John Brown. You saw with John Brown. A lot of cats don’t even know him because in the South, they don’t talk about John Brown, no class revolution, Cha Cha. If they write anything about John Brown, they always make it sound like he was a maniac or mentally crazy, all of that. Even the movies were projecting him as being mentally unstable, but there’s no parks in the South for John Brown. There is no schools, no streets, none of that, man. [01:16:00] So, this is it. JJ: What are your strongest memories there of Chicago, the organizing work there? RL: Memories? JJ: I mean, that you think, you know -- RL: I’ma simply answer. Just coming to Chicago, that’s the best I can put in words, because it changed me. It made me the person I am right now, and so for me, it’s a lifestyle change for me that has lasted to this day, [01:17:00] because it’s 33 �not only affected me and not only affected what we try to do in Chicago and everything, man. We got a political base in Houston, you know? So, that, Chicago, I’ll put it this way. If you want to be a musician, you go to New York City. If you want to be an actor, you go to California. You want to be a labor organizer, community organizer, you go to Chicago. JJ: Why is that? RL: I think it’s just the nature of the population. It’s the nature of the nation that we [01:18:00] live in. Chicago had the basic massive industry. Back of the yards, there’s always been a struggle of the ethnic group communities that you could really identify. You knew where the Polish communities were. You knew where the Irish communities were, German communities. You knew where they were, then where the Young Lords was. You knew that community. You knew where the Black communities were. And since that’s been a working-class environment always, then what you’re doing always, organizing and making lives better for people. And a lot has changed in Chicago but not like we would like to. So, that’s how I’ve split it up. JJ: What do you want the Chicago boys to know [01:19:00] about Bobby Lee? RL: I was a good boy, good man. I spent my life there for them, and for me. That’s what I want people to know. And really making that possible, you and Hy and (inaudible). It’s simple [01:20:00] as that, man. JJ: I appreciate it. I appreciate that. Any final thoughts (inaudible)? RL: Oh, wow. JJ: (laughs) 34 �RL: I found a peace, and I added to it. The Rainbow Coalition is like the people on one hand. That’s what we were. When one was in pain, Cha Cha, Hy, Junebug, Bobby McGuiness, [01:21:00] I’m giving him a car, man. I ain’t seen Bobby in 40 years. So, when any member of the coalition is in pain, we’re all in pain. We all gotta watch out for each other, man. And when the spirit is in pain, then your whole body is in pain. We won’t survive. If we all work hard and help each other and never stop organizing, never stop serving the people, man, and we know this, I’ve said what I would teach my organizing classes, and I used to tell Fred, the people on the West Side, [01:22:00] they don’t read The Red Book. They read The Black Book (Bible?), and that every person in that Bible, and I’ve said it thousands of times, man, every person in that Bible are organizers or servers of the poor. That’s what I want people to remember, that when they read their Bible, every person in that Bible, they lived and died serving the poor. JJ: Take a break? RL: No. What you want? JJ: We’ll take a break. I don’t want to exhaust you. RL: Okay. [01:23:00] I didn’t want my wife seeing me crying. HT: She’s talking to someone up in hospice. (break in audio) JJ: It is really (inaudible). That’s what we got in common. Everybody got the stuff like that in common. 35 �RL: Yeah, I’ll tell you, (inaudible) years ago, just a real good joke because you’re going to jail. (laughs) Yeah, I said, “You’re going to jail. (inaudible) three or four good jokes, because you’re going to jail.” JJ: Right. “And you better make sure.” RL: (inaudible) “Eventually, you will go to the Chicago jail.” JJ: That’s going to keep you alive. RL: (laughs) Oh, that’s funny, man. While you’re here, I’d like [01:24:00] to meet Miss Katz. JJ: Who’s Katz? She works here? RL: She’s in Chicago, Marilyn Katz. JJ: Oh, Marilyn Katz, I know Marilyn Katz. HT: Yeah, she’s got a (inaudible). She’ll be talking to you today. RL: Okay. Yeah, I never met here, but she’s always on my letter list. JJ: Okay, she’s on your letter list. RL: Yeah, (inaudible). She got some colorful characters involved, because I knew of her activities, and so I wanted to meet her (inaudible). JJ: She was proactive in the community. RL: Very. JJ: Very proactive. HT: She was the first person I met when I came to Chicago. [01:25:00] JJ: Oh, she is? She’s still active? Is she still active? HT: Oh, yeah, she’s on our board. Yeah, she’s very cool. 36 �RL: I like her (inaudible) work, and I thanked her for the things she’s done for the people. But yeah, man, any new thoughts on what we been talking about? JJ: I know when we were talking yesterday, we were talking about your oral history, so we were starting to talk about your brothers and sisters, how many that we have and where you grew up. How was it like growing up here? RL: See, my oldest sister’s name, Dolly, and she was the one that was born in Jasper, [01:26:00] but again, in the forest. And she was about seven years old, she got real sick. JJ: You call it the forest? RL: Yeah, we lived in the forest. We say Jasper, but we have a Post Office box that say Jasper. We live in the forest, in the woods, in like a village, and she got real sick one night, and my dad and them tried to rush to her to the hospital to get her to Jasper, but during segregation, they wouldn’t take her. So, then they tried to drive to Galveston, and she didn’t make it. She died. [01:27:00] JJ: Because of the segregation, she had to go a long route. RL: Yeah. See, my oldest brother, Jesse Lee, he was a pretty strong dude, man. He should’ve never been down in the South with the temper that he had, you know? And he wouldn’t take too much insults from the white supremacy brothers. And all they said to him was (inaudible). And Jesse was sentenced. And he spent [01:28:00] a lot of time on the farm, and my brother would stay there quite a while in the prison. We knew he was getting beat and everything, and he died in prison. Then it came down to me and my brother named Thurman, which is a question that I have a brother named Thurman, and then the guy that don’t have 37 �the same look, that don’t have the same blood but have the same spirit. Where Hy Thurman? JJ: He’s right here. RL: Hy Thurman. My brother, and that’s Irish, real Irish, and then we go on down the list, (inaudible). [01:29:00] JJ: What schools did you go to? RL: Atherton Elementary School. Then I went to Phillis Wheatley. The Atherton Elementary School, E.O. Smith, he was a labor organizer in the Fifth Ward (inaudible), and my parents (inaudible) also, and you know, I was raised around union talk. So, from there, from E.O. Smith, I went to Phillis Wheatley High School. Have you ever heard of her, Cha Cha? JJ: Who? What was her name? RL: Phillis [01:30:00] Wheatley. JJ: No. Was that the name of the high school? RL: Yeah. JJ: Okay, I can look it up. RL: Pull her name up. JJ: We can do that later. RL: She was the first Black published poet. She did a poem on George Washington. JJ: So, you love a lot of poetry, right? Was that poem you were saying? RL: You know who inspired that was Al “Bunchy” Carter. I added to it, added another word in, (inaudible) it a little bit, you know. But no, I’d added that to that. Bunchy Carter, he was the Panther that was shot and killed [01:31:00] in LA. 38 �JJ: In Los Angeles? RL: Yeah. With Ericka Huggins. JJ: That’s right. So, what’s your organizing here in -- because you moved here right after Fred Hampton? RL: No. No, I didn’t move. I really (inaudible) later, May 1960, when I would pretty much officially go home. May 1960, no, that’s not right. Oh, man. JJ: ’Cause it happened in ’69. RL: Yeah. He died in ’69. [01:32:00] JJ: Right, so it was after that, sometime. RL: I came May 1960. No. I came -- JJ: Was it a lot of years afterwards? RL: No. I came home May of 1970. JJ: You know, we got a chance to look at some of the masks that you have in here. RL: Huh? JJ: Some of the masks, African masks. RL: Yes. JJ: That you have in your living room. We didn’t get any photos, but we were looking. They mentioned something about they symbolize different things? RL: They symbolize the 29 Panthers that got killed. [01:33:00] It’s symbolizing Manuel Ramos. It symbolizes [Ronaldo?]. JJ: Julio Roldan. RL: It’s hard to pronounce his name. JJ: Yeah, no, that’s name. 39 �RL: He’s a Puerto Rican brother out of -- JJ: New York. RL: -- out of New York. JJ: Yeah, Julio Roldan, they got killed, yeah. RL: He was shot. New York. JJ: Yeah, Julio Roldan, they got killed, yeah. RL: He was shot. JJ: I appreciate that. I appreciate that. RL: Yeah, he was shot by a cop. JJ: Right. RL: That represents, when you look at all those names, I know what it is, but keeping that, it represents the warrior instinct. Other people have forgotten Manuel, and [01:34:00] a lot of folks have never even heard of Jake Winters. JJ: Jake Winters? RL: Yeah, Jake was November 1969. That’s when Jake had a shootout on the South Side, and then later, the next month, that’s when COINTELPRO came after us. Where Hy? F: He’s here. JJ: Yeah, it’s your medicine. You’re getting low. Is that what that is? NURSE: Your light is on. Can we help you? F: It is beeping. RL: Say what? JJ: I think probably it needs to get changed. 40 �RL: Oh, yeah, that. [01:35:00] F: His machine is beeping. N: Thank you. JJ: Thank you, Faiza. I appreciate that. RL: (inaudible) F: No. RL: (inaudible) F: Yeah. RL: All those masks on the wall, that whole wall were all warriors. I know it. My wife know it. People who come in, then they see. Well, they see the house is different when they walk in there. They know that (inaudible). You know what I’m gonna do? I’m gonna wait (inaudible). Did I introduce y’all? JJ: Did you -- what was that? [01:36:00] F: Yeah, (inaudible) know all of them know. Yeah, when she sees them on the street, she knows them. Yeah. RL: Yeah, we’ll wait until Cha Cha, he gonna catch a flight, and he gotta get on up. That’s a long drive. JJ: Are you kicking me out already? RL: No. Well, I’ll keep you here. Imagine all of us here in Houston, you know? Imagine all of us in Houston, man. So, when are you going back to Puerto Rico? JJ: You know, because of the project, we were able to get some funding. RL: Thank you. I’m sorry that I -- N: You’re welcome. No problem. 41 �JJ: We were able to get a little funding. I went four times. I hadn’t been there like in 20 years, and I went four times. I went in one year. But I was working. That’s during the recent oral histories and stuff. RL: I’d like to go there. [01:37:00] JJ: I was telling Ray that your house is like Puerto Rico because you got the parrots, and you got the palm trees on the other side. But for me, everything, it looks like Puerto Rico. RL: And the birds. R: (inaudible) JJ: And everyone -- (laughs) F: There were a few blackbirds. The others, because it’s all cloudy and overcast, so they haven’t been there yet, but there were a few blackbirds. RL: Oh, the red-wing blackbirds or the ravens? F: No, the ravens. RL: Okay. Yeah, man, we got some beautiful birds, man. JJ: No, it’s nice. It looks like they replanted the trees after they took it away from Mexico. They put the northern trees in Texas. (laughs) They used to be palm trees, but after they took it from Mexico, they put northern trees. F: They put (inaudible). (laughs) HT: Yeah, Northerners taking over everything. [01:38:00] JJ: Yeah. (laughs) I saw pine trees. That’s for snow. You know what I’m saying? But they’ll make up anything. They’ll come up with anything. (laughs) 42 �RL: Then, Cha Cha, after that, man, I was real fortunate to have a friend named [Laddie Earl Altham?]. We met each other in nursery school, and I didn’t wanna run no track. I was mostly into jazz, into music, because I was raised around nightclubs. I had that (inaudible). But when Laddie was 15, he drowned, and he already taught me how to come off the block. Where Hy? JJ: He’s right over here. F: He’s right here. [01:39:00] HT: I’m here, buddy. RL: Okay. And when Laddie drowned, we had a school athlete award banquet when I was in the band. You know, the band boys, they get the girls, you know. (laughter) You was going to be a band boy or gang leader, one or the other. JJ: You had a plan, huh? (laughs) RL: And I went out, man. My first track meet, I won. And I trained a lot with the coaches I had, and my first track meet, I won, and I won again. JJ: That’s pretty good. RL: My wife can tell you about all the silver and gold medals and things like that, and I kept winning and winning, [01:40:00] and it took me to college on a scholarship. JJ: Oh, you got into college on a scholarship? RL: Yeah, I got a college scholarship, Southern University in Baton Rouge, Louisiana. But I had signed up for VISTA. That’s what got me directed to VISTA. I was in college though already, and the movement, man, and if you have any tendency, like I showed you the bottom of my heel, I’m born with the mark of Achilles. JJ: See who? 43 �RL: Achilles. JJ: Achilles, they call it Achilles’ heel. RL: Heel, yeah. They’ll call it Achilles. It’s a medical term. JJ: So, you’re part Indian too. RL: You see, most athletes, they get it. [01:41:00] It’s a sprain on their heels. F: Yeah, they recognize it. JJ: Cherokee? F: Yeah, Cherokee and Choctaw or something. JJ: Cherokee and what? F: Choctaw. RL: Yeah, that’s word I was (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). I was trying to separate it from the mythology to the medical, you know, and from that point, Cha Cha, right on till today. But that’s a good question there, about family. I love talking about family. That’s a good question, man. JJ: Because you’re a family person, or why do you like to talk about the family? RL: Huh? F: He said, “Why do you like to talk about family?” RL: That’s the ultimate talk. Then [01:42:00] when you go outside, then you talk about kicking ass, (laughs) organizing, organizing. JJ: So, you go from family to kicking ass. (laughs) RL: Yeah. When you go home, you’re talking to your brothers and sisters and uncles. You know, you’re listening. Then you have an all kinda home-cooking meal, cakes and, you know. That’s a genuine conversation because family, we 44 �wouldn’t be who we are now, man, if it wasn’t for how our family raised us. And yes, everybody have a crazy uncle. (laughter) But I got Thurman like that Archie Bunker of the family. (inaudible) get a job, man. JJ: (laughs) RL: That’s Thurman, [01:43:00] a good man. He’s a good man. JJ: How did the family -- did you see that with the Rainbow Coalition? How did that play? RL: It was at play. JJ: Was that related to that? RL: Yeah. The Rainbow Coalition represented family because like I was saying, if one of the fingers on one hand is paining, everybody paining, you know? And then, all of a sudden, the whole body pain, like with me with this cancer. My whole family, they cool and everything, but my whole family is affected by it because they feel like you guys do, ’cause we family. So, family, [01:44:00] ain’t nothing like it. Once mom’s gone and grandma’s gone and, you know, grandparents, you know, the people that come to you, right or wrong, my daddy used to say -- excuse this language -- but my daddy used to say, “Junior, if you get in a fight, blah, blah, blah, blah, fight hard, son, because I’d rather for another motherfucker be dead than you.” (laughter) JJ: That’s great. RL: Yeah, man. My family, that’s what we doing, Ray, you, Faiza, you know. F: Hy. RL: Hy. 45 �JJ: Hy. RL: It’s family. And it’s serious family when you wake up one morning, like Hy did, and [01:45:00] in the Washington Post. JJ: Okay, Washington Post. RL: Yeah, Washington Post. JJ: I saw that article. It’s a good article. RL: Yeah, right? That’s a hell of a shot there, man. And we all family. You put family as your root, as your root because all struggle (inaudible) community (inaudible) and be a family. Then it’s spreaded out. We wanted our nephews and folks in the house to be safe from the police, to have jobs, [01:46:00] you know, decent housing, healthcare. We wanted our mothers to have pretty dresses. We wanted that. So, I’m waiting, Cha Cha. JJ: You’re waiting for me to say something? RL: I thought you wanted to ask another question. JJ: No, just, you know, we were talking about family, and I was just kind of letting you -- the importance of that, and I think you described it well. So, we’re leaving pretty soon. I just wanted to know, what do you want me and the other people to remember? I know I asked you that before, but I didn’t ask you what you want me to make sure that we should remember. And you know, when I’m going back, since I’m going back. [01:47:00] RL: What we been doing, years ago, right on till now, is keep serving people. If it’s just three or four hours a day you do something, you know, like my mom would say, “Save your own soul.” Do something. That’s pretty much how simple it is, 46 �man. I’m excited, just the thought of a third party. I’m excited about the idea of having a big conference at Ole Miss. We can do that now. We can do that. We got a man in this room that personally knows (inaudible). Those are realities. Now y’all better get to rolling ’cause (inaudible). JJ: Okay, we’re going to get you rolling. RL: I’m serious. [01:48:00] If they have a record, man, don’t [leave it to the?] law. JJ: I appreciate hanging out with yesterday all day, and we had a good conversation. It’s the longest time I’ve been in the hospital, (laughs) but I appreciate it. RL: Yeah, I appreciate it too. JJ: Talking with Faiza and Hy, that man from the Young Patriots, and of course my friend Ray here. So, I really appreciate the time, the opportunity. RL: Yeah, man. JJ: I love you, my brother. I appreciate that. RL: We’ll get together. If I’m not here, then Faiza’ll be here. She know the history. She know what to do. You know, that’s why I wanted her to step up front, so you can hear her and her skill for sitting and talking with you. Yeah, Faiza breaks the stereotype. JJ: (inaudible) [01:49:00] Okay, so we’re going to get ready to take off. RL: Yeah, you don’t want to miss that (inaudible), man. JJ: No, but thank you. Thank you very much. RL: They got all that security you got to go through, all that shit now, man. HT: Don’t forget your peanuts on the plane. 47 �JJ: Oh, yeah, then they got peanuts. They give you peanuts, and you give you security and shake you down. I asked the other guy, “Why are you shaking?” (laughter) I’m just kidding. Okay. RL: Okay. END OF VIDEO FILE 48 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/dfa2fb63402b2ad10cd9067e844fd1de.mp4 4ea7799a93377bb599fe92fbd2a5e07f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Robert E. Lee vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Bob Lee o Robert E. Lee creció en el "bosque" cerca de Jasper, TX. Su familia trabajaba en una plantación de algodón. Uno de sus hermanos Franco se convirtió en un comisionado del condado de la 5 ª Sala de Houston por más de 30 años. En 1969, Bob Lee se convirtió en Subdirector de Campo del Capítulo de Illinois del Partido de las Panteras Negras. Su trabajo incluyó Uptown donde comenzó a trabajar con la Organización de Jóvenes Patriotas. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Lee_Robert Title A name given to the resource Robert E. Lee video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lee, Robert Description An account of the resource Bob Lee or Robert E. Lee grew up in the “forest” near Jasper, TX. His family worked on a cotton plantation. One of his brothers Franco became a county commissioner of the 5th Ward of Houston for over 30 years. In 1969 Bob Lee became a Deputy Field Marshall for the Illinois Chapter of the Black Panther Party. His worked included Uptown where he started working with the Young Patriots Organization and the Young Lords. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-02-16 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/30cb63a01e6addba8972f2d1b7130dcf.pdf 8532ac07605ae66986da98dea49ab3ec PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Carlos Munoz Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 5/19/2013 Runtime: 01:05:02 Biography and Description Oral history of Carlos Munoz, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on May 19, 2013 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, Carlos. If you can give me your name and where you were born, and where you work. CARLOS MUÑOZ JR.: Okay. Right. My name is Carlos Muñoz, Jr. I was born in El Paso, Texas in 1939. The particular day, it is August 25, 1939. I am the son of poor Mexican working-class immigrants, undocumented at the time. And my father was from Chihuahua, Mexico, my mother from Durango, Mexico. They came during the Mexican Revolution of 1910 as children. And the revolutionaries at that time would drop off their kids at the border there in El Paso so -- to keep them safe from the violence of the revolution. My mother’s father, my grandfather, was one of Pancho Villa’s generals [00:01:00] and he was assassinated the year my mother was born, actually so -JJ: (inaudible)? CM: His name is [Calixto Contreras?], General Calixto Contreras. And so that was my maternal grandfather. And I was born in El Paso and when I was 12 years old, we moved to East LA, East Los Angeles, California where I was raised. And I’ve been in California ever since, since 1952 when I was 12 years old. JJ: Can you describe or what do you remember from that experience in East LA? CMJ: Yeah. When I was in East LA, we lived in all the barrios there were -- there were different gangs in the streets. Since my mother died when I was three [00:02:00] and my father remarried, my stepmother and I didn’t get along so I wasn’t home too much. And I became part of gang life. And I’m lucky to be alive today, 1 �actually. The kids that I grew up in East LA with either wound up in prison or dead. JJ: What do you mean? CMJ: Well, there was various gangs. The one that I was the most-time member of was the Olive Street Gang in a barrio called Bunker Hill. That was right in the boundary East LA/downtown LA area and that’s the one that I was really the longest and the one that I walked away from. At the age of 15, I got tired of fighting and decided that I was going to do something different with my life. And I decided to play baseball instead of hanging out in the streets. So then I started in high school. [00:03:00] I became an athlete and a pretty good student. And then I graduated with honors from high school. I was the only quote, “vato loco,” end quote, that graduated with honors. “Vato loco” at that time for us was a reference to those of us that were products of the barrio, products of gang life in the barrio, which is now known more like homeboys. That was the vato loco designation at that time. JJ: Was the barrio always that Chicano, Mexicano or...? CMJ: Yeah. Where -- in East LA at that time, I got there in the East LA area in general, it was predominantly Mexican, I would say, 95 percent Mexican. And there was a clear demarcation, East LA and downtown LA were all Mexican, 95 percent, in terms of ethnic/racial groups. And then southern -- South Central LA [00:04:00] at that time was all Black, Hollywood/West LA was all white. It was kind of like you know, that kind of a demarcation. Nowadays, you go to LA and man, it’s a mixture of Central American and Mexican. It’s no longer just Mexican. This is a 2 �result of the civil wars and revolutions that were fought in Central America in the late ’70s and early ’80s. A lot of political refugees came over and they would taste (laughs) East LA, too, or South Central LA. But now, it’s been a whole different ball game, a whole different landscape in terms of racial and ethnicity and backgrounds of people in LA. JJ: But you said the first place you came to was in Texas, in Tejas, in Texas. CMJ: The first place, when we got to East LA? JJ: Before East LA. CMJ: Oh, before East LA. In El Paso where I was born, in El Paso, yeah. I was born in El Segundo Barrio in El Paso. JJ: What was that like? CMJ: And at that time in El Paso, [00:05:00] talking about segregation, it was all segregated. Mexicanos or Mexican Americans, we all lived on the side of the city that was close to the bridge to Juárez, Mexico and that was El Segundo Barrio. And then the downtown LA was kind of like the boundary. When you passed downtown LA, it was all white. JJ: In El Paso, Texas. CMJ: In El Paso, Texas, it was all white. And below the downtown center, it was Segundo Barrio, and that’s the way El Paso was when I -- between the ages of 1 and 12 when I was born, so it was... And when I went to East LA, it was kind of similar but not quite as segregated. JJ: So how many brothers and sisters? Were they born here or...? CMJ: I’m the only one. I was a real weirdo growing up because all my friends had 3 �brothers and sisters. As you know, Mexicanos, Boricuas, and all of us have a lot of big, extended families. [00:06:00] And my mother died when I was three so my stepmother couldn’t have kids so I don’t even have brothers or sisters that are half. So I was -- I grew up by myself, yeah. So I was the only one that had that background that I knew about. (laughs) JJ: Okay, so then, okay. So now, you’re in East LA and you’re starting -- you’re in school? You’re... CMJ: Yeah. I went to Belmont High School in downtown LA that it was the first time in my life that I experienced an environment that was mixed. You know, kids from different walks of life and races. We were the only school in the whole city at that time that had foreign students. So consequently, in the student body was kids from all over the world there. Mexicans, Asians, Europeans even, Africans, Hawaiians, Polynesians, and [00:07:00] so it was -- it was a good experience. Because I realized, “Wow, you know what? There’s other people in the world that I can relate to.” So my best friend, actually, was a Japanese American that was a part of the only gang in LA that was a Japanese American gang. [Baby Black Ones?] they called themselves. So he and I kind of grew up together in high school and I learned Japanese from his parents and he learned Spanish from me. (laughs) Which came in handy when I went in the military when I volunteered draft after high school. Mm-hmm. Oh, let me give a story about high school that I just thought about. It’s important to capture the historic moment that I was growing up. During the 1950s when I was in high school, segregation and racism was pretty bolder. Even though the school that I went to was mixed, 4 �[00:08:00] if you were Mexican or Black, you automatically -- if you were a guy, you automatically got put into the Industrial Arts major. Woodshop, you know? That kind of thing. Not the academic major. And so I was asked when I was making the transition from junior high or middle school to high school, I was asked by my white counselor what does your father do? And I said my father works with his hands. Cheap labor. Construction. And she told me, “Okay, well, that’s a very honorable profession. You should follow in your father’s footsteps.” So anyhow, I go home that day, “Pa, pa, guess what? I’m going to follow in your footsteps,” and he got very angry. I was going to say another word but I guess I better keep it clean with the language. He got very angry and he told me, “Mijo, you go and tell that SOB that I don’t want you following in my footsteps. I want you to work with a pencil.” My father only got about a fourth-grade education. So to him in his mind, working with a pencil or not having to [00:09:00] work with a pick and shovel was a major improvement. It was, to him, success. He wanted me to finish high school and become a person that worked with a pencil. So I went back and told this counselor, “Yeah, you know, my father doesn’t want me to follow in his footsteps,” I said. “So he wants me to work with a pencil.” So she says, “Hm, work with a pencil.” So she says, “Okay, we’re going to put you in a business major and that way, you can become a used car salesman or something like that.” “Okay, sounds cool.” So I go to my first class. It was a typing class and all girls, right? All the girls had the typing class. And so I was really happy because I’m the only guy and all these girls, right? And I learn how to type. And I didn’t realize that at the time but it saved my life later on when I 5 �was in the military because it got me out of the combat zone and I got to work in an office typing. And so I was able to get a high school diploma in [00:10:00] a business major which did not give me the courses I needed for college. I never took chemistry, algebra, science, those courses that are needed to go into college, so have to go to a community college to make those courses up. So I was trying to -- when I graduated, I went to community college and I picked -- I couldn’t find an algebra class so I took a class that was called geometry. I didn’t know what geometry was. But it sounded like algebra and so I became part of that class. For the first time in my life, I was beginning to flunk a class because I had always gotten good grades. Even though I was a street kid, I still like school and I was doing good in school. And so but then it kind of hit me. “Maybe these white people, maybe they’re right. Maybe we Mexicans don’t have what it takes. Maybe we are intellectually inferior,” you know? So I began to question my ability intellectually. So I dropped out of college and I volunteered draft. [00:11:00] This is just before Vietnam broke out. So because I learned how to -JJ: So you volunteered? CMJ: Yeah, I went to a draft. Yeah, there was no war. JJ: Oh, it was a draft. Okay. CMJ: Draft, volunteer draft. Yeah. And in those days, it was mandatory that you served in the army. There was a draft, right? So you’d have to sign up for the draft. But I decided, “You know, I don’t want to wait. I want to go and get it over with,” so this place called volunteer draft means that you let the draft board know, “Hey, I want to go now. I don’t want to wait until I’m called.” So I decided to go in 6 �and get it out of the way. I didn’t know what was going to be happening down the road. So because I knew how to type, to make a long story short, I would up in army intelligence in the G-2 section typing stuff like that. That was no big deal. I’m in intelligence and I didn’t even know what it meant. But that was just -- it was a typing job so I was pretty happy there. And they sent me to South [00:12:00] Korea. And in South Korea, I began to get you might say a sense of something was wrong. Because even though I was a poor kid from the barrio, I was programmed to be very patriotic, I was programmed to believe the myth of democracy, that we had a democratic society, that we represented the best in the world. JJ: I was going to ask you that. So you were -- at that time when you joined, you were very patriotic. CMJ: Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I just want to serve my country, right? But in spite of the fact we were victimized by racism and all of the other stuff. But growing up, you don’t think about those things. You just assume things are the way they are. So I didn’t question anything like none of us really do at that age. So I went in the volunteer draft to serve my country. So anyway, to make a long story short, I wind up -- I was trying to be a killer like all soldiers, combat-ready and everything else. But because I knew how to type, they put me in army intelligence. So I wound up going to South Korea and become part of the Korean Military Advisory Group. [00:13:00] So when I was there, it was a coup d’etat in 1961. And I started thinking, “Wait a minute. If I’m an “American soldier” defending democracy, why am I being ordered not to try to stop this coup d’etat because it’s 7 �a democratic government?” So here we were as an army, as another -- as a democracy supposedly putting into power a military dictatorship. It didn’t make sense to me. Because something is rotten somewhere and I didn’t -JJ: This is South Korea? CMJ: It’s South Korea. So that began -- I began to question what I was doing there and begin to think something was wrong. Oh, I was 20 years old. What did I know, really? I wasn’t that political yet. But it was my first time in my life that I began to think politically in a way. This to me is a contradiction. I’m here to protect democracy in this potential country, an ally [00:14:00] of ours, and at the same time, I’m allowing a military dictatorship to take power and not do anything about it. So it didn’t make sense to me. So then, at the time Vietnam started happening, it was a secret war in 1962. And so I -- they wanted me to volunteer to go to Vietnam to become one of the first military advisors, set up a Vietnam Military Advisory Group since I was in the Korean Military Advisory Group. And by that time, I started questioning because I was getting -- my job in the intelligence office was to gather all the reports from the CIA coming in, documenting them and then passing them to the general’s office. But I started reading this stuff, you know? So something -- man, we’re going into this country. And again, another democracy supposedly. And where do we go in -- we’re going to go in there and become part of a war there. It doesn’t make sense [00:15:00] to me, you know? So I refused to go to Vietnam. Instead, I was quote -- I wasn’t court martialed because they couldn’t court martial me because there was no public war going on so they could not accuse me of being a disloyal 8 �soldier. Instead, I got two weeks of prison and let’s say kind of a insubordination kind of a charge. Article 15 they called it which doesn’t go on your record when you get discharged. So I got discharged with an honorable discharge which later on qualified me for the GI Bill to go to college. So I got out of the army and the first thing I did when I got out, I joined the Vietnam Veterans Against the War organization and I became an activist against the war as a veterano, as a veteran. And so that was my real transition to being [00:16:00] an activist and beginning to get very political. And then my next -- after that -JJ: Who was leading it at that time? What was -- CMJ: John Kerry. JJ: Oh, John Kerry? CMJ: Senator John Kerry. JJ: Vietnam Veterans Against the War? CMJ: Yeah, yeah. Matter of fact, John Kerry was one of those Vietnam veterans who got a medal of honor, actually, in Vietnam when the combat started really heavy. He was wounded and then he, when he served his duty, he became part of the anti-war movement because like me, he didn’t agree with what we were doing over there. A lot of us; Not just him and me, but you know, a whole bunch of veterans beginning to question what we were doing there. And so all these veterans together begun to get organized so we got to speak out against the war. And although I didn’t serve in Vietnam because I refused to go, I still got classified as the Vietnam War-era veteran meaning that I was in a combat [00:17:00] zone so at that time, we all qualified for the GI Bill so I got to know these guys. And so when John Kerry and others organized the 9 �movement against the war, I joined up. So John Kerry was one of the Vietnam vets that took all their medals off and threw them over there in a protest action in the steps of the White House. In the 19- -- it must’ve been in 19- what, 1966, ’67, around there. And so he was a real hero to me because this guy, this is damn courageous what he’s doing. Of course, later on he became a politician and nowadays, he’s part of the ruling class apparatus, right? But for that moment, he was a good radical, a good anti-war activist. So that got me going. And I haven’t stopped since. I’ve been an activist. I’ve been out there speaking out against the war, speaking out against racism, [00:18:00] sexism, you name it. I’ve been doing it and I’m still doing it. Right now, I’m involved with -- I’m a member of Veterans for Peace and we represent the anti-war movement in this country. And I’m also a part of the immigrant rights movement. I’m a member of the National Network for Immigrant and Refugee Rights in Oakland. So I’ve been an activist ever since. But to go back after I got out of the military is that when I got back, then I went back to school with the GI Bill. And at that time, there were very few of us Mexicans in the area going to school. So we decided -- I started looking around to see if I bumped into any other students that were Mexicans or Latinos and I couldn’t find any. But eventually, little by little, people started coming out of the closet. People got, “Okay, I’m not -- [00:19:00] I’m not Spanish American, I’m not Spanish, I’m Mexican. Órale.” You know, “Friday, let’s get together. Let’s get organized.” JJ: This is recently. CMJ: This is in 1960 -- late ’60s. JJ: Late ’60s, okay. CMJ: So in ’67, we founded the United Mexican American Student organization and I 10 �became a president of that organization. And so then we started thinking about, “Well, you know what?” By that time, by the way, the farm worker movement had started so Dr. King, of course, and the Civil Rights Movement was going strong. So we were being inspired by Dr. King and by Cesar Chavez. And on top of that, there was all kinds of revolutions happening in the world. So we were all connected to all that and we were all being inspired by all the action going on out there against US imperialism and colo- -- anti-colonialist movements as well as here at home civil rights and farm worker rights and so forth. [00:20:00] So we decided to do something that had not been done yet. We looked at each other and said, “You know? We’re supporting all these revolutions, we’re supporting the civil rights movement, we’re supporting the farm working movement. What about our own backyard, the urban barrios? What are we doing there? We’re not doing anything. We got to do something. So we got to start our own movement.” So we started to organize and say, “Well, what can we do to organize a movement? We can start with the schools.” Because all of us, we looked at each other, we all had a hassle to try to get what we got. We were not put into academic tracks, we were -- we had to deal with that vulgar tracking system, a racist system that kept us out of the universities. So we decided to organize a movement against racism in public schools in East LA. So we did that in 1968. JJ: Was that the walkouts? CMJ: Yeah. So then in 1968, we started doing that and we had an organizing committee that I was a part of. [00:21:00] To make a long story short, we pulled it 11 �off. We had -- it became -- there’s a document in my book. We had the -JJ: Can we see the book for a second. CMJ: Yeah. This is the book here. It’s called Youth, Identity, Power: The Chicano Movement and I document all this history I’m talking about right now that -- okay? And I became part of this organizing effort and we -- our concern was to make demands to the school board that we wanted -- we didn’t want racist teachers anymore. That we wanted to get our own teachers in there. That we wanted the classes that need to be taught about Mexican culture and Mexican history and about the role that we played as a people about developing the United States of America society, right? So all of that took place. It was a segregated schooling situation [00:22:00] so it was also anti-racist and anti-segregation. So we pulled it off. Thousands of kids walked out of the schools in East LA. JJ: But I mean how did you go about (inaudible)? How did you organize the -- how did you lead that? CMJ: Yeah. Well, what we did -- yeah, how we organized it was okay, we went out into the community and talked to parents. Talked to the people in the labor movement out there, in unions. Talked to them about what we thought was important for them to support us in trying to do this. To put the demand -- oh, we were asking for nothing revolutionary, really. But really, what we wanted to do is to have -- is to make a change in the educational system so that Chicano kids and Mexican kids could have access to a college, to be prepared for a college. You know, very reformist kind of thing. JJ: Did you have a petition or I mean how did you...? 12 �CMJ: We had petitions signed and all that. [00:23:00] And yeah, we did that. And but more importantly, we had parents join in our organizing efforts and say -- so they talked to other parents. The high school kids talked to other high school kids. So we had a different -- a whole network going on throughout East LA and other parts of LA city, as well. And so then, we -- during the month of March, we pulled it off. We started saying we were going to have a walkout, we were going to call it the blowouts to get everybody out of the school, to march to the school board, make these demands which we did. So we had all of these kids coming out. We didn’t expect it to be that great. We thought if we could get a handful of kids out, maybe some pickets and all that, we won’t be -- but man, oh, just about all the kids walked out. And in that whole week’s time, it took -- we stopped -- we brought the school system to a stop. Kids were walking out every day and over 10,000 kids walking out every day. [00:24:00] It was a very historic moment that we didn’t realize it at the time, mind you. Nobody had written a book like this yet? (laughs) We didn’t know that what we were doing was historical. It was just something that we had to do to start the struggle, to make sure that we were going to be org-, organized throughout the Southwest. So we pulled it off and sure enough, walkouts in East LA became our Selma, Alabama in a sense. They started the Civil Rights Movement in the South, we started the Civil Rights Movement in the Southwest. And that we called it the Chicano Movement. Pretty excited that we could talk about Chicano power, Chicano meaning to us a reconnection to our Indigenous past. Chicano, we defined it as a label, a name that came from Mexica. Mexica culture in Mexico, the original, you know, the 13 �Aztec, known as the Aztecs. So out of the Mexica came [00:25:00] Mexicano, Mexico. So that’s Mexico today, right? The name, the word Mexico. So we said, “Okay, so we’re going to be Mexicano.” Well, we’re not Mexican so we’re Chicano. You just cut out the M-e. We were born in US, okay, we can’t be Mexicanos because we’re not Mexican, we’re Mexican Americans. So we’re going to cut it short, Mexi, we’re going to cut that part out and it’s Chicano only, right? So we went through a lot of discussions about this but we decided that Chicano would become our new identity. That represented rejection of assimilation and basically, it represented the decolonizing of our people. Because we learned about the history, the true history, of how we got colonized. How the Southwest used to be Mexico and there was this war that was fought that the US made against Mexico to take over half of the Mexican [00:26:00] nation and territory. So we sort of begun to redefine ourselves as colonized people as opposed to “Americans,” right? So that’s what we did. Now, what happened after that, after the walkouts, about a few weeks later, 13 of us unbeknownst to us through secret grand juries and also through the freedom -the COINTELPRO. The FBI counterintelligence program that we did not know at the time was involved with these secret proceedings of indictment. I learned that later on after I became a scholar and I did the research. Based on the Freedom of Information Act, I was able to get all these documents about how the FBI had been spying on me and others -- those of us that were organizers. And so we got arrested, we got put into [00:27:00] prison for -- on the charges of conspiracy to disrupt the school system of LA city, of Los Angeles. And -- 14 �JJ: Right after the walkouts? CMJ: Right after the walkouts. A few weeks after the walkouts. JJ: You said 13 people or... CMJ: Thirteen of us, 13 activists. And I was -- there were two of us, we were leaders of UMAS. I was one of them, the other was Moctesuma Esparza from UCLA and myself from East -- from Cal State LA. And then Sal Castro, a high school teacher, may he rest in peace. He just passed away a couple of weeks ago. A dear friend of mine and comrade. And so 13 of us were indicted for conspiracy. And so we were put into prison for a few -- about a week or so. And then we went out on bail. In my case, the American Civil Liberties Union [00:28:00] bailed me out and then everybody else had other lawyers. So we were all facing 66 years in prison for the crime of organizing the walkouts. So after that, that added fuel to the fire. JJ: Sixty-six years. CMJ: Sixty-six years. Looking at it, you -- listening to it now, you say, “That is ridiculous. (laughs) That’s absurd.” But back then, it’s like a [mash?]. It’s a long time. JJ: And these were people that had no previous records or... CMJ: No previous record. We’re all activists, you know? But again, it was part of the COINTELPRO, a program that they decided that they would go after us before we -- in other words, at that moment in history, the FBI had its hands full with the Black Power movement and Civil Rights Movement, white radicalism, anti-war and all that. So they didn’t want to have a Brown front emerge, you know? And - 15 �JJ: They had the Young Lords. (laughs) CMJ: Yeah, they had the Young Lords in Chicago and [00:29:00] the Young Lords in New York eventually. So they didn’t want to have what happened in ’69 a year later, the unification of the Young Lords with the Chicano Movement that took place in Denver, Colorado in ’69. They wanted to prevent that but we still did it eventually. But our indictment representing was adding fuel to the fire because a lot of people out there who thought we were being too radical by having these walkouts. Then we got busted and they learned about -- that’s unjust because we were not -- we were not doing anything revolutionary or communist-inspired like the FBI said. So people got angry and became quite supportive so the movement was built all over the Southwest. A year later in ’69, in Denver, Colorado, there were walkouts. In 1970 in South Texas, Crystal City, Texas, walkouts. So walkout became the means to generate the movement. [00:30:00] I mean, the people asked because that was the big issue of education that everybody could relate to, you know what I’m saying? That we just want to a better school for -- better schools for our kids. You know, we deserve that. We deserve that, all of our generations, my father’s generation, World War II, we fought in wars, we fought in wars for this country, and we still came back and we’re still not first-class citizens. “Ya basta,” we said. We got to do something different. So that’s what happened. That’s what made me a revolutionary for life, really. JJ: And then your father was born in Mexico. You were born here. And now, you’re 16 �a Chicano and he’s a Mexicano. But when you describe it, it’s really the same people. Some people are kind of confused about that. CMJ: Yeah, yeah. Right. JJ: So how -- when did that begin for you to feel that you were separate or (inaudible)? CMJ: Yeah. Yes and no, yes and no. What happened was, [00:31:00] okay, the question is what happened after we proclaimed ourselves Chicano? How did our parents who were Mexicans relate to that? Well, they couldn’t relate to that. We would have arguments with our families. And I was told, “Well, you’re Mexican, man. You’re not Chicano. What is Chicano, anyway?” So I tried to explain it to them and basically what we said to them was and what I said to my parents was being Chicano is being proud of our Mexican heritage. That’s what it means. The only difference is that because we were not born in Mexico, we wanted to make clear that even though we were not born in Mexico, that being Chicano meant that we were proud of our Mexican ancestors. And specifically, our Indigenous ancestors. We wanted to reconnect and that was a way we wanted to reconnect. We no longer wanted to be Mexican American, hyphenated Americans. At that time, it was hyphenated. I explain that in my book. We wanted to be just [00:32:00] Chicano or Chicana in case of women. So -- but there was a time when there was no understanding but eventually, they caught on eventually. Okay, now we understand. But initially, it was no -- it was kind of a problem. (laughs) But eventually, it was cleared up. But even it was hard to do that. So anyway, after the out on bail -- we’re out on bail, see? And it took two 17 �years in the courts. There’s a book entitled Racial Injustice and that deals with our case. It was written by a law professor at the law school. Racial Injustice. JJ: But I mean, who wrote the book? CMJ: I’m trying to remember -- I can’t remember the guy’s name right now. It’s in here. JJ: (inaudible) Racial Injustice. CMJ: Racial Injustice, yeah. [00:33:00] And so that documents our whole case. What happened, what we went through in terms of the indictments for conspiracy and all that. JJ: Can you give us a little (inaudible). CMJ: What was that? JJ: A little bit of what took place with the kids. CMJ: A little bit of what took place when we were indicted? JJ: Yeah, it’s in the book but if you can give us an idea of what -- CMJ: What happened was in other words, it begun -- the court proceedings started so preliminary to trial. And our lawyers collectively made us little legal strategies to prevent us from going to trial right away instead to try to get to the supreme court. The state supreme court, not the national supreme court. So they put all kinds of legal maneuvers. So eventually, it got to the state appellate court which is the one below the supreme court and it took two years for that to happen. And so when that happened, then basically, we were found [00:34:00] innocent by virtue of the First Amendment to the US Constitution freedom of speech. So like I always tell people, I guess the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover, didn’t realize that Mexicans were also covered by the First Amendment. So that’s what happened. 18 �But in those two years that we’re talking about our legal case going on forward, there was also a lot of other stuff going on. We organized -- well, actually, the party -JJ: Can you explain how that came about? CMJ: Okay, so then in the 1969 Denver conference -JJ: You said we. Who were the players? CMJ: The players are the Crusade for Justice led by Corky Gonzales, United Mexican American Students that I was a part of, MAYO, Mexican American Youth Organization from Texas, were the main players here. Brown Berets from -became the main players. Brown Berets became main players during the walkouts because they were part of the organizing [00:35:00] effort. It was basically the organization that we decided in the walkouts that would be our -- the security. There would be -- in the case the cops attacked us, the -- we needed the Brown Berets to be there to defend the kids from getting hurt by the cops. And they said, oh. So the Brown Berets became in the image of the public one of the most militant groups at that time. So that ’69 conference, they were also a part of that. They were key players, as well. JJ: Who were the leaders at the time of the Brown Berets? CMJ: David Sanchez at the time was the Prime Minister of Brown at that time. Now, by that time, I was already teaching. I started teaching at night. After I got out of prison on bail, I started teaching (laughs). I was a first-year graduate student and we didn’t have -- at that time, we didn’t have any Mexican Americans, not that many Mexican American scholars. There were only five in the social sciences, 19 �for example. And they [00:36:00] were older guys and they didn’t know anything about Chicanos. They didn’t want to be part of our Chicano studies plans. So we had to, out of our own ranks of students, we had to come up with a faculty so I was one of those guys. Since I had been a leader at UMAS, I was asked to be the guy to build the Department of Chicano Studies, the first one in the nation. So this is happening in two years. JJ: You were asked to build the first one in the nation, the Department of Chicano Studies? CMJ: Yeah, right. JJ: So that was the first version (inaudible). CMJ: Yeah, yeah. JJ: This was in -- CMJ: At Cal State Los Angeles in 1968. JJ: But you formed it, you made it. CMJ: Yeah. JJ: And then others followed after that or...? CMJ: Yeah, after that, there were others that came up. They followed. By 1969, there were three things -JJ: Who asked you? Who asked you? CMJ: UMAS. JJ: UMAS. CMJ: See, in other words, as students UMAS, we made demands to the administration that we wanted to have a Chicano Studies Department, okay? And Black 20 �students did the same thing. [00:37:00] So it was a Black/Brown kind of unity thing going on and so we gave them these demands. And so the administration, “Okay, okay, we’ll do it, we’ll do it.” Because we had -- it was right after the walkouts. There was a lot of mass movement going on out there so they didn’t want to say no (laughs) for obvious reasons. So we got the department but then with no faculty. So in order to staff the department, you need faculty. So I was picked, two of us were picked, to be the first “teachers” or faculty in the department part-time. We were full-time grad students and part-time faculty (laughs) because we didn’t have our own faculty. So the first thing I did as “department chair” was to recruit -- try to find throughout the country Mexican American scholars that had PhDs. So it was kind of hard to find. But anyway, so to go on, this is all happening in a two-year period, from ’68 to ’70, right? (laughs) All this stuff going on. Sixty-nine, the following year, the Denver [00:38:00] conference and then at the Denver conference, Plan de Aztlán was produced. JJ: What was that? CMJ: Plan de Aztlán was a manifesto. JJ: And who produced that? CMJ: Well, it came out of that conference. It came out of the Crusade for Justice Conference. And so that manifesto called for x number of things that we in the Chicano Movement are committing ourselves to finding this revolutionary struggle to create not only better schools but our own schools, our own political institutions, our own economic institutions, et cetera. So the political institution 21 �thing, we thought about -- well, at that time, we didn’t think about a party, per se. But after the Plan de Aztlán was put out, then we started talking about, “Well, you know what? We can’t do all of these things we’re demanding or calling for. Let’s take one at a time. Let’s take the more important one.” We need -- we were at that time in history, we were not representing a political process. [00:39:00] We were all underrepresented. We didn’t have our own elected officials and that kind of thing so we decided to create our own political party. So we called it La Raza Unida party. JJ: Before we go onto La Raza Unida party, can you describe -- because this is where the Young Lords came to Denver for the first time. So can you describe how that conference was organized and what took place during those days? CMJ: Yeah. The conference was organized basically by the Crusade for Justice, okay? And the Crusade for Justice under the leadership of Corky Gonzales were the folks that put it in play. They’re the ones that kind of -- the logistics and stuff like that. And then UMAS, the Brown -JJ: And why did they (inaudible)? CMJ: Because they had the facilities. It was the only -- the Crusade for Justice was the first civil rights organization to be created in the US. Okay? JJ: Of Chicanos. CMJ: Of Chicanos. That was in 19- -- [00:40:00] I think in 1965, Corky Gonzales founded it. So they had funds and they had their own building, okay? So they the ones that says, “Okay, look. We got this building, we got these funds, let’s have it here in Denver. We’d be happy to host it.” You know what I mean? So 22 �that’s how it came about. And so then, the word started putting out all over the place and the Young Lords were invited. We wanted to have a Latino unity thing, as well, to start moving forward to come up with this plan of action that will result -- not only with the building of the Chicano Movement but also with establishing an alliance with other Latino organizations like the Young Lords. So the Young Lords attended and were represented. And so from that moment on, we were connected in terms of political actions that were there. So whatever the Young Lords did in Chicago and New York, eventually, we were in solidarity with. [00:41:00] We were publicly -- were publicly supported and vice-a versa. Whatever we did over here in the Southwest, the Young Lords would also support it. And eventually, the Black Panthers and other militant people of color organizations. That was the thing that we wanted to build. But in the meantime, the main thing is to build in our own backyard and get our own folks involved in organizing. So the party was the way that we thought at that time we should do it. So La Raza Unida party was in a way a culmination of the Chicano Movement. So we went from con- -- we went from the walkouts to other walkouts to the conferences at Plan de Aztlán, and also to another conference in Santa Barbara after the Plan de Aztlán that I was also a part of called Plan de Santa Bárbara where we put together a manifesto demanding access to higher education for Chicano kids. [00:42:00] And to open up the doors to these institutions that historically had been closed to us. So this is where I decided that my future work was going to be to build Chicano studies in the university which I’ve devoted my life to doing so far. And so when we were “released” from being 23 �indicted and all that, then that’s what happened. So okay, so here I am. I got my PhD, I got my -- I was out on bail and got my (laughs) PhD when I was out on bail. And so then I became one of the handful of PhDs in the country so I -JJ: One of the what? CMJ: One of -- a handful of PhDs that we had. One of the first ones to get a PhD and therefore, I was able to do the work that I’ve been doing. JJ: Now, the -- so it started in Los Angeles, the Chicano Studies Department. CMJ: Right. JJ: Now, did you move to other states or cities? CMJ: Yeah. So there were -JJ: Were there funds [00:43:00] connected to do that or...? CMJ: Yeah, well, basically for the most part, it was California, Chicano studies. California was the first place where Chicano studies grew pretty fast. And then in Colorado, it started in Colorado, and then New Mexico and then Texas. But the Plan de Aztlán -JJ: Because I think after then is when we have the Puerto Rican Studies. CMJ: Yeah, right, exactly. JJ: So it was -- I think it’s right around the same time. CMJ: Exactly. So that was -JJ: It was kind of born. CMJ: Right on. So there was also this interaction going on with the Puerto Rican students, Puerto Rican student groups. So yeah, eventually, it became a nationwide thing so it’s still going on. It’s not as radical as it was when we started 24 �it. Because as I write about in my book, there were -JJ: Why has it changed? Why do you think it’s changed? CMJ: The change happened because it -- becoming part of the university [00:44:00] -see, our plan, my vision -- I keep talking about myself. My vision was I wanted to develop a paradigm that was in opposition to the dominant paradigm, you know what I mean? The dominant theories, the dominant methodologies, the dominant history. I wanted to play a role in developing within the university our own paradigm that dealt -- that was com- -- that competed against the other one. We wanted to decolonize the study of our people. In the context that we took it in our own hands, we’re going to write the authentic, the true history. And not the racist history that was being done at that time. Okay? So that’s what we did. And so then, but it differed in terms of degrees of political involvement. It wasn’t -across [00:45:00] the Southwest wasn’t exactly the same. There were differences here and there in terms of how they defined Chicano studies. But for the most part, there was common ground at that time. But now, even now in the 21st century, things have changed completely. And those who have become professors were not products of the Chicano Movement or the Boricua Movement like we were. They were products of a system. We didn’t have enough faculty to take over a whole university, (laughs) right? So consequently, people that are now teaching are more interested in career as opposed to community engagement, for example, community involvement. JJ: Career for themselves? CMJ: Yeah. 25 �JJ: Or for -- not for the student. CMJ: No, for themselves, yeah. There is a careerist kind of process that goes on in higher education. In other words, people are concerned about becoming experts and all that and they’re not concerned about what we were, my [00:46:00] generation, is concerned about is -JJ: What were we concerned about as this -- CMJ: What we were concerned then was to become organic intellectuals. What I mean by organic intellectuals is that organically connected to our communities. In other words, where we saw our research being the kind of research needed by our communities to empower our communities. You see what I mean? As opposed to what’s happened now for the most part is doing the research to publish books about our experience which is okay. JJ: So what is -- what -- that’s a good point. So the research is the research to empower the community. Can you kind of define that a little bit? CMJ: Yeah. Okay. What I mean by that is okay, research, for example, the issues that our communities face. Take one that is happening -- continues to happen today. Police harassment, you know? [00:47:00] How the system of injustice -- in other words, redefine the system of justice as a system of injustice. And begin to understand that what’s going on in terms of police community relations has not been good for our communities. So what they’re really finding in terms of community control of the police or how can we empower our communities to take on the police in a way that sort of redefines the relationship between cop and street youth. But it continues to be the case that we were not able to succeed in 26 �that way. How are you going to produce cops that are going to be sympathetic to a community when you have an institution of the police that’s a military institution, really? It’s a militarized institution. So that means you got to take on the whole societal [00:48:00] thing so make a revolution out of that. So that’s what we wanted to do but it’s easier said than done. Because those of us doing the kind of research like that could not get our books published, for one, at that time. My book, for example, was rejected by every single publisher. I had to go to England to get it published. Verso Press is a left wing publisher in London. So this is where this was published because it was too radical, it was too -JJ: What was that book, the book again or...? CMJ: My book? Youth, Identity, Power. JJ: Youth, Identity -- hold on a second. Okay, Youth, Identity, Power: The Chicano Movement? CMJ: Right. JJ: Okay. CMJ: So I was told, for example, by publishers this is not something that a political scientists writes because my PhD is in political science. So it’s not something that a political scientist writes. [00:49:00] And so it’s not -JJ: Your teaching is in political science. CMJ: Yeah -- no, no, Chicano studies. JJ: Chicano studies. CMJ: Yeah, right. I never taught in the political science Department. I didn’t want to. I wanted to create something new. Something that would be corresponding to 27 �what the needs of the community were. JJ: And today, the professors are lapse of that understanding. CMJ: Yeah, so today, we have people in the Political Science Department -JJ: (inaudible) they were putting in every teacher they got. (laughter) CMJ: Yeah, right. JJ: So the professors today are not engaged in the way that -- CMJ: Yeah, they have different -- they’re more theoretical now, for one. To be “respected” as a scholar nowadays, people think they have to be theoretical. And I don’t have anything against revolutionary theory but (laughter) or other theories but I don’t have any sympathy for it. But the point that I’m getting at is that it’s the nature of the institution to perpetuate the status quo. [00:50:00] Ando so there is very little room allowed for a revolutionary scholar to publish her work or his work as readily as others. There’s more opportunity now because not only do we have left wing presses. At that time when I got my book, it was -- Verso Press was it. And now they got different -- there’s other -- plus we have our own publishing houses now, too, Chicano. Arte Publico is one and I think there’s another one. I can’t remember off-hand. So now, we’re able to get more books published because -- but in those days, it was not possible. So basically, the important thing is that the name of the game has changed. The society has gotten more conservative, reactionary, and consequently, it’s been difficult to have a left perspective or a radical perspective pronounced or be visible as much as it was back in the ’60s. [00:51:00] And this’ll be -- I guess that’s what’s going on. 28 �JJ: Now, you’re not teaching now. You said you’re retired, semi-retired? CMJ: I’m semi-retired. I’m still teach -JJ: Where do you teach at? CMJ: I teach part-time. JJ: Where? CMJ: At UC Berkeley. JJ: UC Berkely. CMJ: Where I’ve taught at before (laughs) so yeah. JJ: For how long? CMJ: Well, I started teaching at the University of California in 1970. So I’ve been teaching since 1970 for the University of California and Berkeley since 1976. So my first job was at UC Irvine from 1970 to 1976. Then I went to the University of California Berkeley in 1976. So I’ve been there ever since til now. JJ: Immigrant rights you’re saying is part of the (inaudible) we got right now so that’s all. CMJ: Well, there has been, and ever since the ’60s, a growing population [00:52:00] of workers without papers in our society, so-called “illegal aliens.” And as the society has moved to the right, there’s been more and more anti-immigrant, racist hysteria. Historically speaking, every time there’s an economic crisis in the society, immigrants are scapegoated. They are -- the right wing, even the liberals, they say, “These illegal aliens are taking away jobs from American workers, are putting American workers out of work.” Which explains the crises, right? (laughs) Which is not true. It’s never been true. But that’s the stereotypic 29 �racist explanation for it. So it’s gotten worse and worse and worse. Under the Bush administration -- no, I take it back. Under the Clinton administration, actually, liberal [00:53:00] Democrat, they militarized the border. Clinton militarized the border. They started -- I mean, when I was a kid going -- crossing the border from El Paso to Juarez, the Border Patrol didn’t wear guns. So now, the Border Patrol has become like a military group, like an army. And it’s been -under President Clinton, that border was militarized. They built a wall, making it difficult for people to cross, and so it’s been getting worse ever since. So now, there’s been over time different kinds of congressional efforts to reform immigration policy. And right now, we’re in the middle -- as a matter of fact, any day now, we’re supposed to find out what’s happening with the latest effort to reform immigration policy. [00:54:00] And I’ve done an analysis of that and I also include that in my last chapter. About the fact that what’s going on now is basically policy that is going to be in the interest of corporations and not in the interest of the working class. They’re going to make it difficult for a undocumented worker to get citizenship. That person is going to have to pay a fine of 2,000 dollars or more, has to go back to Mexico and wait x number of years before she or he can apply for citizenship or apply for a visa to come back to work legally. So to me, that’s not good policy. Plus also, under the Bush administration, they created the -- they reorganized the [00:55:00] immigration system. Now it’s called the Homeland Security -- Department of Homeland Security. And Homeland Security, the arm of enforcement, immigration enforcement, has been called ICE, the ICE agency. And it’s called -- it’s what -- 30 �what does it stand for? Immigration Customs Enforcement, ICE. And what I call that is a terrorist arm of the US government because every day, ICE terrorizes (coughs) families. JJ: Do you need water? CMJ: Yeah, yeah, (inaudible). (coughs) (break in audio) CMJ: So ICE, again, the -- means Immigration Enforcement Agency. Customs -Immigration Customs, ICE, customs agency. [00:56:00] These guys, when they go into somebody’s home, they got -- they’re all battle -- it’s sort of like a soldier. They look like soldiers going in with guns, bullet vests, helmets, you know? And here you got a family of undocumented -JJ: Right. They’re watching TV. CMJ: They’re watching TV, the mom’s cooking or whatever, the kids and these guys just break in. “Okay, you’re under arrest.” What the hell? Because you have no papers. So basically, what that means is that today is worse than ever in the history of this country in terms of how it deals with immigrants because what they’ve done is they have criminalized the undocumented immigrant as opposed to just dealing with that person in terms of, “Okay, well, you got to get papers and bla bla bla. We got to deport you. Sorry, but...” And now they go in there. And then, they get imprisoned. [00:57:00] They don’t get deported right away like they used to. Now they send them to private prisons that have become very, very profit-making institutions. So this is why I have rephrased what President Eisenhower said once. When he came -- when he start -- when he stepped 31 �down from the presidency, he warned the American people about the dangers of the military industrial complex. Remember that? It’s always quoted. It’s very, you know. What I say now is the danger comes from the corporate military prison complex, okay? Because I see this -- they’re interconnected more than ever. JJ: So they’re making a profit -- CMJ: They’re making a profit. JJ: (inaudible) was working as a pastor and they said that they were deporting some people and they -- but then they waited to collect [00:58:00] the money first. CMJ: No, no, see, they -JJ: For a traffic fine, they put them in court. CMJ: Yeah, right. JJ: Maybe I’m misunderstanding. CMJ: No, no, no. The example of profit-making, what I mean by profit-making is instead of going to a jail, a regular jail, okay? Where people go who get arrested and then they call their lawyer and all that. Instead of doing that, what they’ve set up private -- different private systems, I mean private prisons that are like fenced in and everything else. It’s not a jail, per se, but it’s kind of like fenced in and everything. JJ: Concentration. CMJ: Concentration camp. That’s what it looks like when you see one of those. So they send people there to wait for how long, sometimes days and weeks before they get processed for deportation. [00:59:00] What that means is that this 32 �private prison is charging the government x number of millions of dollars to house people that are being -- they call it detained, detained. Not imprisoned, but they’re being detained for processing. You follow me? But it’s the same. But the consequence is the same. It’s a terrifying experience for families, you know what I mean? And -JJ: The business is making money for the government. CMJ: Exactly. That’s what I mean by profit-making so it’s very lucrative now. Okay, so that’s what’s happening now. So the point is that the immigrant rights movement is comprised of organization like the one I’m part of that are organizing to put pressure on the government for a human rights comprehensive immigration reform. Human rights meaning that we demand immediate legalization of [01:00:00] undocumented workers. They should have a right to work, period. And yeah, they -- some of them become citizens if there’s a path for citizenship. But they shouldn’t be penalized by having to pay thousands of dollars and going back to Mexico before they can become citizens. And also more importantly, that the militarization of the border stop. That we want to see the border become like it used to be. We don’t want to see any militarized things going on there like weaponry. And now, President Obama has sent in drones -- now they’re sending in drones, too, that can kill anybody they want to kill over there in the border. They determine terrorists that can -- to guard against terrorism. So all of this is going on and so the movement [01:01:00] is trying to put a stop to that, as well. So basically, we want to say -- we’re saying as an immigrant mass movement, we want to say, “Look, these people are human beings. They deserve the right 33 �to work if, in fact, there is work for them that Americans don’t want.” American workers don’t want to work in the places where they’re being hired. This is why they are in demand by those businesses that can’t hire American workers because they need cheap labor. So basically, that’s what’s going on right now. But it’s a long uphill fight because President Obama has not been a friend of Latinos in the context of pushing for human rights and immigration reform. Which is a shame because as you know, if it were not for the Latino vote, he never would’ve been elected President. I mean, Obama had the Black vote, but he needed the Latino vote [01:02:00] to get elected and reelected. And so he’s gotten that on the promises that he’s made that he would be pushing a reform of immigration policy that was going to be human rights-based, but he has not kept his promise. JJ: So suddenly, human rights-based demands or issues are -- it has to do -- it has to do with the border, demilitarizing it? CMJ: Demilitarize the border, right. And de-terrorize -JJ: De-terrorize the border, de-terrorize the border. CMJ: Yeah, right. (laughs) No more terrorism. We don’t want any -- we don’t want ICE to operate anymore. We want ICE to come in, yeah. JJ: So it has to do with ICE. CMJ: Yeah, yeah, we don’t want -JJ: And it has to do with these private corporations. CMJ: Right. Get rid of those private prisons, right. JJ: What other issues related to that, ICE? 34 �CMJ: And then the right to stay here and work without having to be criminalized. No more criminalization of the workers. JJ: There’s clearly a clash between what [01:03:00] the rest of the American electorate wants. CMJ: Well, yes and no. I think actually -JJ: Or at least what they’re saying that they want. CMJ: Yeah, it’s a clash with the right wing Tea Party people, what they want. And as opposed to the American people because there’s been polls made recently where it comes out that the majority of Americans now are sympathetic to immigrants more now. So the majority, I think the majority now are saying yeah, they’re -- they should have the right to work and not getting -- not get criminalized. Yeah. JJ: Any final thoughts? CMJ: Yeah. Well, final thoughts is as I get older and I’ve learned two things. The first one is that life is struggle and struggle is life. [01:04:00] You never get to a point in time in your life when you say, “Oh my God, we’ve got it made. We’ve succeeded in everything that we’ve tried to undertake.” But I also learned that victory is in the struggle. That as long as we’re fighting the good fight, fighting for human rights, fighting for an authentic, multi-racial democracy, we’re winning. Because the time’s coming where we’re going to be the majority in this country, people of color. And I think it can happen. So it might not happen in my lifetime. I won’t be around to see it. My children should be able to see it, my grandchildren will see it. The kinds of seeds that those of us from the Young 35 �Lords party and Chicano Movement, (inaudible) party envision. Our vision will come to realization eventually. It’s going to happen. I’m convinced of that. And I’m going to keep on fighting until I die. JJ: [01:05:00] Thank you very much. END OF VIDEO FILE 36 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/510939e3483735a79fe624a7c46e8b7b.mp4 8e912c03802f5a5b7424147fa72e1d9c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Carlos Munoz vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Carlos Munoz, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 5/9/2013 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Munoz_Carlos Title A name given to the resource Carlos Munoz video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Munoz, Carlos Description An account of the resource Oral history of Carlos Munoz, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 5/9/2013 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-05-09 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1fc57ca7e485cf48c5d247a2e59dfb5c.pdf 5894cb33c5e2f0af0ed0054e254b1abf PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: David Mojica Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 1/22/2012 Biography and Description David Mojica is a very important, unsung hero in the history of Puerto Ricans in Chicago. He has never received honors nor has never been paid for the work that he continues to do daily for the common folk. Yet for many years, he has volunteered his services in Humboldt Park. Mr. Mojica has been the head of the Cocineros union for many years, helping to provide jobs and distributing Puerto Rican pride flags and shirts, and good tasting fast food to the entire community. The Cocineros de Humbolt Park have sponsored their own events that include live bands, speakers, and other entertainment. Mr. Mojica has also been able to keep the Cocineros together while protecting their rights to sell in the park. Mr. Mojica’s activism extends back to the 1960s. Right after the Division Street Riots in 1966, he was active with several community groups in Humboldt Park with whom the Young Lords collaborated. Mr. Mojica was also one of the primary Puerto Rican community workers that helped to elect Harold Washington, during his first bid for mayor. He volunteered every day at the Fullerton Ave. near Western Ave. in the “Washington for Mayor” office. Mr. Mojica’s work included distributing flyers and posters, identifying registered voters, phone canvassing, and “Get out the Vote” work at the precinct level. Mr. Mojica was also a Young Lord who helped to organize the first Hispano rally for Harold Washington at North West Hall in 1982, and the victory rally at Humboldt Park during the first official Mayor’s Neighborhood Festival where over 100,000 Puerto Ricans attended. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, (Spanish) [00:00:00 - 00:00:03]. What’s your name? DAVID MOJICA: David Mojica. JJ: David Mojica. DM: Yeah. JJ: (Spanish) [00:00:07 - 00:00:10] -- well, what kind of work do you do? DM: I’m working for the Cocineros Unidos of Humboldt Park. JJ: Cocineros Unidos, the kitchen -- what do you call them? DM: It’s the group of concessionaires and they are located at Humboldt Park. JJ: Okay, and what do you do there? DM: I administrate them. I make sure that everything is in place and we’re under the contract with the park district. JJ: (Spanish) [00:00:47]? DM: Usually, we sell (Spanish) [00:00:53 - 00:00:58]. (laughs) It’s a Puerto Rican kitchen, I could say. And I’ve been working with them for at least for 10 years. I used to -- JJ: (Spanish) [00:01:13 - 00:01:17]? DM: Well, we have a concessionaire that sells concess-souvenirs. And some others, they have places in different places of the park and they sell Puerto Rican food. Also, there’s a concessionaire of tacos, hot dogs, street corn. Everything, a little of everything. 1 �JJ: What is your connection? I mean, how did -- to the -- let’s say to the Young Lords, I mean? What is your connection to that? DM: [00:02:00] Well, I was working with the Harold Washington campaign and I met José Jiménez and we got -- we get a -- we start a friendship. And to now, we’ve been working for the community. JJ: Okay. (Spanish) [00:02:27]. DM: (Spanish) [00:00:29]. JJ: (Spanish) [00:00:30]. So you were in Jersey City? DM: Jersey City. I stood in Jersey City for -- to 1960- ’63. I came back in ’63 to Chicago. And then I started -- I came with my family. I had a wife and we start from there. (break in audio) M: [00:03:00] JJ: Okay. David Mojica, can you -- (Spanish) [00:03:07 - 00:03:15]? DM: (Spanish) [00:03:16] -- JJ: The names (Spanish) [00:03:20] in there. DM: Oh. It is about my father. He couldn’t find a job over there and it was a bad situation. That’s why we came to New Jersey and Jersey City, in Jersey City. And he start working there as a chef. And I used to work with him in there and at the, you know, (Spanish) [00:03:49] -- JJ: (Spanish) [00:03:51] -- DM: -- in dish washers (laughs) is what we call them (Spanish) [00:03:57]. It sound like we [00:04:00] are recording records. So I stayed there for quite a while but I 2 �got married, you know, or I got together with my wife. And I came to Pue- -- to Chicago in six-- in 1963 to the -- to Wicker Park area. And I met a lot of people, a lot of Puerto Rican. There was so many that the -- Wicker Park is so, it was all Puerto Rican, mostly. And we had everything: bodega, grocery stores, restaurants, everything in the Richard Street in the area of Le Moyne. Not Le Moyne, Hoyne and Division. All this area, there was a theater called [00:05:00] San Juan Theater which is gone because it changed, the neighborhood changed. And I saw a lot of people, a lot of young people, getting involved in gangs like the Young Sinner [sic], Latin Kings, you name it. (laughs) But they got together -they used to get together with us and we used to tell them that they was not -- it was not good to get involved in gangs or anything, you know? So I think that most of the guys that were involved later, they changed their mind and start working for the community, for the people in the community. (coughs) JJ: And what do you think [00:06:00] was the reason that they were getting -- (break in audio) JJ: Why do you think? Why do you think they -- before we -- (break in audio) DM: There was nothing else to do. There was not -- they were not giving jobs to -- for youth. And I think there was nothing else to do so they would like to start hanging out and fighting. I believe they start fighting with the older -- what do you call the -- like the Italians, the European. Because they -- every time they see somebody in the area, they kicked (laughs) somebody’s butt. And they start getting together to go and fight with them but see, the thing is [00:07:00] that they 3 �were not using what they using now. They used to fight with the fists, not the -no -- none of them had guns, you know. And to defend the people that were in the area. JJ: And what places did you work at? I mean, what types of jobs did you work? DM: I worked with (inaudible) machines, punch press machines, bicycle company like Schwinn bicycle. Sani company, I worked for Sani. Roland company was part of the Sani’s company. [00:08:00] I work at the shop at O’Hare field. You know, when they were giving food to the -- for the planes. I worked there. And then, I start -- in ’68, I start working with a -- in a bar and make new friends. And then, I stared getting together with the -- with guys that winning the -- like in ’66. You know, they got involved in the helping, you know, making organization like SACC. And -- JJ: SACC was a -- DM: A community group. A Spanish Action Committee [sic]. JJ: Spanish Action Committee. DM: Yeah, that’s after -- that was formed after the riot in [00:09:00] ’66. JJ: So then -- okay. And what was that -- DM: They were doing -- they were fighting for jobs. They were fighting for jobs because there was nobody -- they would not hire anybody in -- on the government or maybe for a -- for the Cook Country or for the welfare [public aid?]. There was nobody in there. They need Spanish-speaking so we’re fighting. Even though I remember an issue that a policeman had to be 5’9” (laughs) before he can get hired to be a policeman. So we -- there was a lot of 4 �things that was change during those days. And I know I could see a cop, you know, he’s not even five foot and (inaudible) and [00:10:00] he’s doing the work, too. So a lot of thing was change. JJ: So I’m going to ask you, so you were working with SACC. But then, you had a group, too, right? I mean -- DM: Yeah. We form a group in 1967 during a fire on Milwaukee Avenue which there was eight people died including children, I don’t know, four children and other people. And they didn’t have no -- they didn’t have no place, they didn’t have no clothing, they didn’t have no food. So we start working with them then from -while we were organizing the group, we start working with them. And we wanted a -- to do a shelter. It never come true but [00:11:00] we kept the organization working. And later on, we had a -- we met other people like with the [CEDA?] program, we had some slot. That’s when I met José Jiménez and we was -- start working together and working in the community. JJ: And they had some slots from CEDA. DM: CEDA, CEDA, yeah. JJ: CEDA? DM: CEDA, that was the government, the federal government. And they were doing -- (break in audio) JJ: Okay. DM: I heard that they were -- they need somebody at the Harold campaign headquarters on Fullerton [00:12:00] and they need somebody and they want -- 5 �and I need a job. So I got involve and they were put me 100 dollars a week. And I used to work in the office, answer the phone, getting volunteers and then -JJ: So you got involved and what happened? I’m sorry. What did you get involved in? Go ahead. DM: In the campaign. There were some Young Lords working there. That’s when I met a lot of the guys and they were working for the community. They were working the campaign all the way. JJ: What did you do at the campaign? Was the campaign for Harold Washington, the mayor? DM: For Harold, for Harold Washington. For mayor. JJ: What did you do? DM: I used to answer phone. I used to answering the phone [00:13:00] and at night, we used to work canvassing and work precinct every day. (break in audio) DM: Well, one of the reason, I like the guy, I like the guy. So I said, “Well, let’s help him out.” No for the money. I needed money, but it helped me out to do so I can work all the way with the campaign. And we make it. JJ: How did you see Harold Washington helping you? Helping you, you know what I’m saying? Helping what you were doing? Because you were working with the community. How did you -- how did [00:14:00] you see him helping with his campaign? What did it -- what would it do for you? DM: Oh. Well, I got a lot of people -- when they were asking for a resume, I got a lot - lots of people there on, you know, on getting the jobs. And one of those guys 6 �was Luiz Gutiérrez. He got a -- I took the resume even though I told him I need somebody to write down mine. And he say, “Well, I help you out.” Which so we work together in getting those. I took him to downtown and he got the job. He’s doing fine [00:15:00] in Washington now. JJ: he’s a cop? What kind of -- DM: And he work -- he was one of the guys that I was -- I had in Harold campaign. I had six precinct that I work in. One of those precinct was Luiz Gutiérrez. He ran it. JJ: (inaudible) [00:15:30] -- (break in audio) DM: We not do it (laughs). We not communicating now but you know. JJ: What do you want -- what do you think I should talk more about -- okay. Okay. You came in ’63, right? DM: Right. JJ: Okay, so in ’63, the Young Lords started in [00:16:00] 19-- it was a gang in 1959, but as a political group, they started in 1968. So did you know anything about the Young Lords at that time? DM: Oh yeah. I used to talk about the Young Lords. They was-- they were a gang but then, they -- JJ: So what did you know when they were a gang? What did you hear back then? DM: They found a headquarters, a church, they had a church where they did a program there for the people. So they change from gang, they changed to work for the community so -- 7 �JJ: So did you hear about them when they were a gang? DM: I hear when -- they were a gang but I never hear anything, what do you call it, bad about them. I know they was a gang [00:17:00] but everybody had a gang (laughs) just to fight somebody that don’t like them so there was nothing bad about that. I thought maybe they were help -- they were doing some fighting because they couldn’t protect themself. JJ: So then you heard they changed into a community group and then how did you feel as a Puerto Rican? How did you feel with these -- DM: Well, I think was a great move because the community needed help. Because there was so many things that need to be corrected. And like when CEDA workers -- CEDA slots started, they start giving people [00:18:00] jobs working for help groups, police relation, everything. So everybody started working, organizing and get jobs. Get jobs. JJ: When you say you were organizing, what, for example, you mentioned you were working with SACC. What did organizing mean? What did they -- how did they organize? DM: Well, first, they had a training. They had a training of different things. Health, politic relation, education, and they used to train people. We used to train people and they -- a lot of them got together. Even though with the politics, [00:19:00] that a lot of people got involved in politics. Because after the training, they start preaching what they -- what was the training for. So it was good for the community because they learn something and then, they start helping others. JJ: You had a group, too. What was the name of your group? 8 �(break in audio) M3: -- pretend that I just turned on the camera. Go ahead. JJ: You had a group. DM: Yeah. JJ: So what was it called and what did they do? What did they do? DM: People’s Association for Community Action. And we used to have different committees. We -- one -- I was working with the public aid committee. We used to get people together and [00:20:00] find out what was the problem. And we used to call the representative at the public aid office. And we used to tell them what was wrong because a lot of people used -- they used to take them off the program. And a lot of people, they didn’t receive checks and we didn’t know why. But (laughs) there was a lot of things going on so we started working with the -with people inside the office and we form some committees there in different office. And we communicate with the -- every time we had a problem with somebody, we try [00:21:00] to make sure that they help the people and they take care of the problem. And if I -- if there is any people used to come in and ask for help. So we -- the main thing was that we have different committee to work on it. JJ: You had different committees? DM: We had different committee like police relation, (Spanish) [00:21:34]. JJ: How many organizations and did you guys work together? How many different organizations -- DM: Oh, we had, we had -- 9 �JJ: And what were they? What were they? DM: We work with ABC, work with UCA (sic), United for Community Action. We work for -- [00:22:00] we had a organization called United Front. It sound like (laughter) a terrorist group but they were not. And SACCs, Spanish Action Committee. Well, I -- there were so many, I don’t recall right now. JJ: Did these groups ever work with the Young Lords? DM: Yeah, most of them. They used to got together when there was something going on about a march or jobs or whatever. They -- everybody used to get together. JJ: Marching. So then, this was about -- DM: Organizing the community, yeah. JJ: So there were a lot of marches at that time? DM: Oh, you name it. There was a lot of crimes, a lot of killings from different [00:23:00] groups. Like a guy got shot and they don’t know why he was shot, (laughs) -- JJ: Now, who shot him? DM: -- so -- but the -- there was so much police brutality at that time. JJ: Oh, the police were -- DM: Yeah. JJ: Okay. So there was police brutality and these groups were marching or...? DM: Against them. Yeah, against the problem, against, you know. JJ: What other problems besides police brutality were going on at that time? DM: Jobs, welfare, health. There was no clinic. I -- at that time in Wicker Park, there used to be one clinic. That’s all. And the people -- the people had no insurance 10 �or anything. [00:24:00] And at that time, they don’t -- a lot of people don’t know about the Cook County hospital (laughs) so it’s, you know. So when this happened, every -- a lot of people was disoriented. And it need to be that thing was organized. So everybody was organizing. JJ: (coughs) Pardon. DM: I went there to see the project they were doing and my sister used to live a block away on Walton close to Grace. And they -- the general were -- they had different programs there. JJ: [00:25:00] So what kind of programs did they have? Do you remember or...? DM: Wood painting, teaching kids how to paint. Make murals. And they had a -- they had a answering service that people used to go there and then they’d call and they’d write down their -- whatever they need. So they were active at that time. They were really active in the community. JJ: And this was not in Lincoln Park. Where was this at? DM: Uptown. JJ: So they were up -- went from Lincoln Park to Uptown, the Young Lords? DM: Uptown. Yeah, that was in Grace and Walton? JJ: Right. DM: Close to the -- to Wrigley Field. So that’s mainly Lincoln Park, no? JJ: Okay. So [00:26:00] you heard about the Young Lords when they were in Lincoln Park and also in Lake View in Uptown. DM: Right. 11 �JJ: And you knew the Young Lords when they were a gang. So I mean, what -- you mentioned that -- so you -- so what was your feeling? Why did you -- your involvement in the community? What’s the reason that you were involved in the community? DM: Like I say before, I need to help. I need to help the people because I know the struggle they were going through. There was -- they had big families, they don’t have a place where to stay. And whoever will help the community, I was with them. I gave them credit for that. [00:27:00] So I got involved with the -- with them and to see what they really -- what they really need. JJ: And you first started getting involved so how many years have you been involved in the -- DM: Community? Oof. I’ve been in -- since 1966 throughout the ’90s. I was working very, very active in the community. But then, I start getting sick and I couldn’t participate like I wanted to so I had to step out. And -- JJ: And you [00:28:00] lived in what area mostly? DM: Humboldt Park. In the Humboldt Park area. Yeah. JJ: In the Humboldt Park area? And what kind of changes have been going on in that area? Since you came to Chicago in 1963, what kind of changes -- DM: It was bad. JJ: Can you explain what -- the whole changes or...? DM: Well, now they -- JJ: (Spanish) [00:28:19] -- 12 �DM: The Wicker Park, Wicker Park is still there. But you can hardly see Spanish speaking there or Puerto Ricans. They are not -- the neighborhood changed completely. Everybody sold the house, the place. They sold the house for maybe 35-, 15,000 and now, you cannot (laughs) -- it’s almost a million dollar for an apartment. So it’s -- there [00:29:00] are a lot of changes and they -- I -- I don’t see a lot of groups now. Groups, the groups now, what they do is trying to survive with the paying their electricity, pay the bills to the people working in that. So that’s what they make the -- like, to make money for paying the -- just staying there, you know. But they not too involved in training. They not training people like the -- where we used to do. So there’s a lot of changes now. And it’s tough because I think that [00:30:00] in order for you to do a good job in the community, you have to deal with the people. You have to know people, you have to know what they -- their problems are, and work with them. Trying to teach them what you know and how to go about in resolving those problems. (break in audio) JJ: Okay, go ahead. DM: There’s no help for the people that need the shelter. Right now, we need a shelter bad. Some shelter that -- in those shelters, if somebody is in a shelter, at maybe five o’clock in the morning or four o’clock in the morning, they have to leave. [00:31:00] Even though you got family and you have to leave and come back or the same day maybe at six o’clock so you could get a place where to stay. And it’s bad because you need something that could provide some good assistance for the people that needs a place where to stay. 13 �JJ: And why do we need so many shelters? Because before, we didn’t have a need for shelters. DM: We need a big place. We need -- JJ: Before, we didn’t have to. Why do we need shelters now? DM: Because people can’t find no jobs, people cannot afford to pay an apartment. The rent is so high that a lot of people can’t afford it. They get kicked out from one place to another [00:32:00] and we need help. I mean, these people need help. JJ: So how -- why do you think that happened? That there are so many changes going on in Humboldt Park that there’s -- when you first came here, it was all full of Puerto Ricans you said. But now, that community is no longer there, right? So what do you think happened? DM: There was displacement. I mean, there was -- the economic is bad. When they were -- when we were here, a lot of people had to moved out because fires. There were a lot of fires at that time. A lot of people, a lot of people died and [00:33:00] I heard that most of the displacement was for profit. Lots of people had a building and because they could not fix it or anything, the best thing for them was to burn it and they didn’t care who was in there. They just burn it for profit. And you see Wicker Park, there were so many -- there were so many fires that if you go to Wicker Park right now, most of the building that you see are new because most of those lots were empty because there was a fire. And now, the developer came back and built new buildings, right? But none of us [00:34:00] can afford them. Because we didn’t have -- we don’t -- we not -- our kids drop 14 �out. There was a lot of drop out. A lot of people could’ve been professional right now but a lot of people can’t afford it. And they had to move someplace else. Florida, Puerto Rico, different states. And most of these same -- most of the same thing is happening all over the states. If you got money, you can survive but if you don’t got no money, you cannot live. [00:35:00] You cannot stay there. You have to move somewhere where you can afford it. So we -- we like (Spanish) [00:35:12 - 00:35:35]? JJ: (Spanish) [00:35:35 - 00:35:43]? Where are they moving to? DM: (Spanish) [00:35:45], they moving to the ghetto. (laughs) Wherever is a ghetto, there’s a community that is going down. That’s why they went -- [00:36:00] that’s why they went the ghetto to live because they cannot afford to go to a upgraded area because they not -- they not making that much money or receiving money to live there. So wherever there is a ghetto, so (laughs) that’s where they’re living. That’s why they have to go. JJ: And where are the ghettoes located now? DM: Located? JJ: Yeah, where are they at? DM: It’s going down. (laughs) JJ: It’s going where? DM: Down west. JJ: Down west? DM: Down west with the -- at the past Cicero, that’s -- that’s ghetto there. So south, down south, there’s a ghetto there. So (laughs) what can I say? 15 �JJ: Okay. Are there any [00:37:00] in the suburbs or no? DM: Suburbs? If (Spanish) [00:37:01] -- if it is a ghetto there. I mean -- JJ: But they’re going to the ghetto. DM: They go to ghetto, man. JJ: They’re not going to the (inaudible). DM: And then when I say ghetto, it’s an area that is going down. That are people -what the people don’t want, that’s where they go. Because that’s -- they can afford it. I mean, it’s -- you have to find a, I mean, a area that don’t cost too much. That there, you don’t have to pay the landlord 1,500, 2,000 dollars for an apartment? [00:38:00] You know. END OF VIDEO FILE 16 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8402785d5f8a1101e0f3db9d37d796f9.mp4 5df2c2bf3ca5dea9768a3c9168b6f77e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry David Mojica vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Chicago (Ill.). Alcalde (1983-1987 : Washington) Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Mojica_David Title A name given to the resource David Mojica video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mojica, David Description An account of the resource David Mojica is a very important, unsung hero in the history of Puerto Ricans in Chicago. He has volunteered his services in Humboldt Park. Mr. Mojica has been the head of the Cocineros union for many years, helping to provide jobs and distributing Puerto Rican pride flags and shirts, and good tasting fast food to the entire community. Mr. Mojica was also one of the primary Puerto Rican community workers that helped to elect Harold Washington, during his first bid for mayor. He volunteered every day at the Fullerton Ave. near Western Ave. in the “Washington for Mayor” office. Mr. Mojica’s work included distributing flyers and posters, identifying registered voters, and phone canvassing. Mr. Mojica was also a Young Lord who helped to organize the first Hispano rally for Harold Washington at North West Hall in 1982, and the victory rally at Humboldt Park during the first official Mayor’s Neighborhood Festival where over 100,000 Puerto Ricans attended. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Chicago (Ill.). Mayor (1983-1987 : Washington) Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-01-22 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b02f2f8d4f13289fc5d8240628f44058.pdf 16aa50e7d8ed574c0c5293e33310f161 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Diego Mercado Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 11/21/2012 Runtime: 02:03:03 Biography and Description Oral history of Diego Mercado, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on November 21, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8259f5aeaaa682e76c4de598aeaab12e.mp4 d3f5816eada65ae6804dd5aa24c3afe9 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Diego Mercado vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Diego Mercado, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 11/21/2012 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Mercado_Diego Title A name given to the resource Diego Mercado video interview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mercado, Diego Description An account of the resource Oral history of Diego Mercado, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 11/21/2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-11-21 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bbf26c28458ebf95415b53fec7394d18.pdf 3acb9ca46634bf91ebf70eaae6c9b6a6 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Francisca Medina Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/2/2012 Biography and Description English Francisca Medina lived for many years in Chicago’s Lincoln Park neighborhood. She describes visiting with other Latinas on the streets of Lincoln Park, at laundromats, and in the large variety of Puerto Rican owned shops in the 1950s, a time when the community was thriving and safe. Her memories emphasize how close knit the Puerto Rican community remained in those days. When there was a funeral, wedding, or baptism, Puerto Rican women gathered to pray the rosaries together. Groups of Puerto Ricans went door-to-door singing in parrandas and getting petitions signed to have Spanish mass celebrated at St. Michael’s and at St. Teresa’s, two Catholic churches whose membership was already largely Latino. Ms. Medina recalls her involvement in Council Number 9 at St. Teresa’s, as well as her work with the congregations at St. Vincent De Paul and St. Sebastian. Ms. Medina raised her family in Lincoln Park, moving several times within the neighborhood including homes on Sheffield, Bissell and Fremont Streets. Her experience is representative of the way that many Puerto Rican families moved at that time, pulled slowly, looking for larger and more economical homes that their families could enjoy and live in more comfortably. During the 1960s and 1970s, Puerto Ricans were moving west along North Avenue and Armitage Avenue, from Clark Street to Kedzie, and from �Grand Avenue north to Lawrence. Still, as Ms. Medina recalls, the community stayed connected, separated only by the Chicago River and the I-94 expressway. These memories are essential as they negate attempts by city officials to emphasize geographical neighborhood boundaries and dilute the cohesiveness of Chicago’s Latino community. Spanish Francisca Medina vivió en el vecindario de Lincoln Park en Chicago por muchos años. Describe visitando las calles de Lincoln Park con otras Latinas, las lavanderías, y las tiendas en donde la mayoría de los dueños eran Puertorriqueños en los 1950, un tiempo donde la comunidad era segura. Su memoria aclara que cerca estaba la comunidad puertorriqueña en esos tiempos. Cuando había una funeral, boda, o bautismo la puertorriqueñas se reunían y oraran juntas con sus rosarios. Grupos de Puertorriqueños iban de puerta a puerta cantando en parrandas y adquirían firmas en peticiones para tener una misa en español en las iglesias de St. Michael’s y St. Teresa’s, donde la mayoría de los miembros eran Latinos. Señora Medina recuerdo su parte en Council Number 9 en St. Teresa’s, igual que su trabajo en la congregación en St. Vincent de Paul St. Sabastian. Señora Medina crio su familia en Lincoln Park, se mudo muchas veces dentro del vecindario, incluyendo en Sheffiel, Bissell y Fremont Street. Sus experiencias son representativas de la forma en que familias puertorriqueñas mudaban en ese tiempo, cambiándose a un lugar en que es más grande y donde su familia podía vive más cómodo. Durante los 1960s y los 1970s puertorriqueños so estaban mudando de oeste sobre la calle de North Avenue y Armitage Avenue, de Clark Street hacia Kedzie, y de Grand Avenue hacia el norte a Lawrence. Durante estos cambios la comunidad todavía estaba unida, separad solo por el rio de Chicago y el expressway 1-94. Estas memorias son esencial porque oponen los oficiales de la ciudad que tratan de subrayar fronteras en el vecindario y deshacer la propiedad coherente en la comunidad Latina. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b3d6ecaaf25ee14d77f4f7e77044e0df.mp4 74e37a1dd4b59b2af64deff261b69a15 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Francisca Medina vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 1 Descripción Spanish language Description entry Francisca Medina vivió en el vecindario de Lincoln Park en Chicago por muchos años. Describe visitando las calles de Lincoln Park con otras Latinas, las lavanderías, y las tiendas en donde la mayoría de los dueños eran Puertorriqueños en los 1950, un tiempo donde la comunidad era segura. Su memoria aclara que cerca estaba la comunidad puertorriqueña en esos tiempos. Cuando había una funeral, boda, o bautismo la puertorriqueñas se reunían y oraran juntas con sus rosarios. Grupos de Puertorriqueños iban de puerta a puerta cantando en parrandas y adquirían firmas en peticiones para tener una misa en español en las iglesias de St. Michael’s y St. Teresa’s, donde la mayoría de los miembros eran Latinos. Señora Medina recuerdo su parte en Council Number 9 en St. Teresa’s, igual que su trabajo en la congregación en St. Vincent de Paul St. Sabastian. Señora Medina crio su familia en Lincoln Park, se mudo muchas veces dentro del vecindario, incluyendo en Sheffiel, Bissell y Fremont Street. Sus experiencias son representativas de la forma en que familias puertorriqueñas mudaban en ese tiempo, cambiándose a un lugar en que es más grande y donde su familia podía vive más cómodo. Durante los 1960s y los 1970s puertorriqueños so estaban mudando de oeste sobre la calle de North Avenue y Armitage Avenue, de Clark Street hacia Kedzie, y de Grand Avenue hacia el norte a Lawrence. Durante estos cambios la comunidad todavía estaba unida, separad solo por el rio de Chicago y el expressway 1-94. Estas memorias son esencial porque oponen los oficiales de la ciudad que tratan de subrayar fronteras en el vecindario y deshacer la propiedad coherente en la comunidad Latina. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Idioma español--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Medina_Francisca Title A name given to the resource Francisca Medina video interview and biography, interview 1 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Medina, Francisca Description An account of the resource Francisca Medina lived for many years in Chicago’s Lincoln Park neighborhood. She describes visiting with other Latinas on the streets of Lincoln Park, at laundromats, and in the large variety of Puerto Rican owned shops in the 1950s, a time when the community was thriving and safe. Ms. Medina recalls her involvement in Council Number 9 at St. Teresa’s, as well as her work with the congregations at St. Vincent De Paul and St. Sebastian. Ms. Medina raised her family in Lincoln Park, moving several times within the neighborhood including homes on Sheffield, Bissell and Fremont Streets. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-02 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/33ef2b1e68c85db842e4f8b88ccf1e68.pdf bd745abbdd8273bb0fe03f22ce453166 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Alfredo Matias Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 4/2/2012 Biography and Description Alfredo Matias is the happy son of Doña Carmen García and a Young Lord going back to the mid-1960s. Mr. Matias joined the Young Lords during the Month of Soul Dances at St. Michael’s Church Gymnasium in Lincoln Park. Those neighborhood dances were held for four consecutive Saturdays and the Young Lords purchased 40, 30-minute advertising slots on the radio to announce the dances. The affairs were so well attended they were overfilled each night. Monies from the dances were used by the Young Lords to purchase their club sweaters, which were to be all black with a violet stripe along each shoulder – colors chosen from the film, “West Side Story.” The film had special significance for young Puerto Ricans at the time because it was the only public movie of its day that portrayed Puerto Ricans living in the United States, however problematically. A white, armor shield patch was sewn near one of the side pockets. The letters “YL” in old English font were marked on the patch as well. Mr. Matias lived in Lincoln Park and also in Wicker Park for many years. He saw both communities evict their primarily Puerto Rican residents. For years, one could see Alfredo sitting in the park at Schiller and Damen Ave. or walking along North Avenue, Milwaukee, Damen, and Division Streets. He would always be humble, respectful and friendly, and his favorite past time was not whistling but “throwing flowers or compliments at the ladies.” Mr. Matias has always been dedicated to his heros Don Pedro Albizu Campos and Lolita Lebrón, and has performed his many poems at the nightclub “Weeds” and several �other venues for free. A few of his poems include, “El Coquí,” “ El Grillo y La Luna,” “Sin Titulo,” “Characters of my Poetry,” “Ponle Titulo,” and “Just a Poem.” Mr. Matias says that he was expelled from school at 13 years of age, from Puerto Rico at age 15, and from the U.S. military at 17. He was forced from the military because he refused to accept an order that would have sent him to Cuba to fight alongside other Puerto Ricans in the Bay of Pigs invasion, against the sovereignty of Cuba. He said then “that he was not going to ever fight in a war against a Latino nation.” The expulsion from the military has caused him much suffering, including being denied any veteran’s benefits. Mr. Matias grew up in Sabana Seca, Puerto Rico. SabanaSeca is a barrio of Tao Baja, 14 miles west of San Juan. It used to house primarily a pineapple and grapefruit plantation called the “Stephenson Place,” but the 2250 acres were acquired by the U.S. Navy during World War II. After the war, the property was turned over to the U.S. Army and then back to the U.S. Navy. Since the 1898 military occupation of Puerto Rico by the United States, six military installations have been established in Puerto Rico: one in the offshore island of Culebra, another in the island of Vieques, and four others including Roosevelt Roads, Salinas, Fort Allen, and Fort Buchanon. Today Mr. Matias is home in Puerto Rico, content to be by his mother’s side, and still writing his poetry, “proud to be a Puerto Rican and a Young Lord to the bone.” �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay -- ALFREDO MATIAS: My name -JJ: Alfredo Matias, okay. AM: My name is Alfredo Matias. I was born in el barrio Sabana Seca de Toa Baja, Puerto Rico. (Spanish) [00:00:11 - 00:00:25]. JJ: (Spanish) [00:00:25]. AM: Yeah, uh-huh. My name is Alfredo Matias. I am a bilingual, bicultural, but not bisexual Puerto Rican, [today with?] Ricky Martin. You know, the first time I heard Ricky Martin singing that song, “Livin’ la Vida Loca,” I said to myself, “[He’s a maricón?].” As soon as I saw it, I said, you know, he was -- anyway, I’m here in Chicago. I’ve been in Chicago since 1963. I came here ’cause I was -- [Is?] --? (break in video) JJ: Okay, whenever you want to start. AM: Okay, my name [00:01:00] is Alfredo Matias. I am Afro Puerto Rican. I came to Chicago in 1963. Uh, prior to going to Chicago, I was in Puerto Rico, you know, in, uh, uh, my youth. I wa-- I was born and raised in Puerto Rico. Um, when I w- when I came to Chicago, I came to live at [5302 South Michigan?]. From there, I went to the South Side, went back to the West Side. I came to the North Side around 1967 when I met Cha-Cha Jiménez, and they had a little get-together, you know, in some church, and I was playing with a band called the [Afro Souls?]. It was an Afro American band. You know, we had a couple projects, me 1 �and another [Black working?] guy named [Coco?]. We went to play at the St. Michael. We went to play (inaudible), and that was Cha-Cha, and [the guy was there?], you know, and I met him through a guy named [Rafael Fajaldo?], also known as Coco. [00:02:00] First of all, you know, before I go any further, I have to explain that when I was in Puerto Rico, you know, my stepfather was a policeman, and when I was in the eighth grade, this one teacher, you know, a Black Puerto Rican teacher, he had the habit of saying, “Eh?” Like, “Eh, Matias?” You know, (Spanish) [00:02:23]. And I said to him, “(Spanish) [00:02:26]?” And he just kept, you know, going around, giving the class. Then he stood next to me (inaudible), he hit me so hard, man. (mimics slapping face) He hit me like you hit a man, you know? He did it because he was more like a -- he was a [sidekick?] to some [white?] Puerto Rican that (inaudible) [in the town?], and they were using -- they were kind of telling him that I was [big into him?] (inaudible), and I was stronger, so, you know, telling, you know, enticing him into, you know, [going up on?] me. And he [would look for?] -- he used to hit me. Since I knew he was the teacher and I was the student, I would try to be cool, you know, and then one day, [00:03:00] he said to me, “Hey, Matias, (inaudible),” when the guy that was the next to me and the girl, they were talking to each other, and they weren’t talking loud because I didn’t even hear them. But he said to me, “Matias, (Spanish) [00:03:09],” and just kept giving the class, going around. Then when he hit me so -- that was a Friday. That Monday, my stepfather was going to school to talk to him, ’cause he didn’t even know that my father was a policeman. When Monday morning came, you know, I came to school, and when it was time 2 �for me to go into the classroom, you know, came in, I walk in, kind of thinking that my stepfather would be coming there soon, so as soon I walked through the door the teacher grabbed me again by my neck and pulled me out of the classroom, and I went nuts, you know? And, again, we fight. Anyway, then I was expelled from school. Then, in those days, there were no jobs for [grown?] Puerto Ricans in my town; most jobs for a kid, you know? So I was hanging around [my town?] with some friends, and since I didn’t know what to do, one day, you know, they were going to go induct -- [00:04:00] they had inducted into the army. Puerto Rico, you know, we don’t have an army, but the American Army over there, you know. Different -- they went to take the test, and so the lady just asked for the name and address. I told her that same day I was 17, and I wanted to, you know, join the Army. I was only -- I wasn’t even 16 yet, but you know, she told me that I had to have some signature from my parents, you know, like that they agreed I could go into the Army. JJ: Why did you want to join the Army? AM: Because (inaudible), you know, there were no jobs for grown people. Most of the jobs for young people. We were hanging around, you know, [bumming?] up and down the street, you know? So I went with friends just for a ride, and when I saw that the lady just asked them for their name and address, I told that day I was 17, so I went, you know, in two weeks, and they called us to go take the test, and when we went to take the test -- there were six of us -- and the only one that passed the test was me. So the guys (inaudible), they flunked the test, 3 �[00:05:00] and [I was there for a ride?], and I wound up going to the Army. Anyway, when I went to the Army I was only 16 years of age. JJ: And where did you go? Where --? AM: After taking basic training in Buchanan, they sent me to Fort Jackson, South Carolina. In South Carolina, you know, everything was two: two NCO club, two beer garden, two barbershops. Everything was two: Black people go to one; white people go to the other. They sleep in the barrack, but never talk to each other. We just had, like, two different worlds. Anyway, Puerto Rican, you know, for them to be able to go downtown to the Black area, they used me as a key to walk into the Black neighborhood. Every time we would go into the neighborhood they would say, “Oh, here comes (inaudible) Matias,” and he let us through, because I [look?] Puerto Rican; they were with me. I was the only Black Puerto Rican in Fort Jackson, South Carolina. Anyway, when Kennedy wanted to invade Cuba in the Bay of Pigs invasion, they took all the Puerto Ricans aside, (inaudible). They took us, fed us, gave us food, and gave us (inaudible), and then told us that they had [00:06:00] to talk to us, to only Puerto Ricans. There was a number of Puerto Ricans in the Army at that time. They took us aside and then they said they want to volunteer for this mission, to see (inaudible) [discharge?]. They want (inaudible) to see [on the other side?]. And I was the only Black Puerto Rican. Everybody looked at me, because, you know, that’s (inaudible), as a leader or something, so everybody followed my idea. So when they said that, (inaudible) volunteer to [sit on one side?], they wanted to [sit on the other side?], other side looked at me, I got up. I went to the side, the one that 4 �they want to go. Everybody followed me. In the Army, they branded me like I was unloyal. Yeah, I was in the Army for 14 months. I never got to be private first class. In the Army in America, you don’t make private first class within nine months, they’re supposed to give you discharge. I was in the Army 14 months. I never got, you know, to be [00:07:00] private first class. So I was an E1; I came out E1 at 14 months. JJ: So why do you think that was? AM: What? JJ: That you were not private first class. AM: Racism, you know. I never saw -- I only saw two Puerto Rican commissioned officers when I was in the Army, and they were in Puerto Rico. For us, (inaudible) whites [all there?]. Whites, they run the game, you know? It was, you know, two: Black would go to one, and the Black would go to the other, but then Puerto Rican, they had no place to go. So people kind of saw me as a leader, because I was, you know, I was [always?] a bunch of people following me. See, not for me, the United States would have been in Cuba with Puerto Rican soldiers. (inaudible) [social?] leader, you know, they even have a highway named after him, but (inaudible) to make the [00:08:00] [alpha CTC?], and he wanted for us to go with him, you know, into Cuba in the Bay of Pig invasion. See, [it wasn’t?] for me, saying, you know, that I wasn’t going, [and a little political dissention?], we would not be in Cuba. When I came back from the Army to Puerto Rico -- I was only there for three months -- no job, no nothing, so my family -- [I credit it for my?] grandfather (inaudible) Army base, and I used to go there, throw stones at 5 �the soldiers and [share?] with my cousins. When I was in the Army, you know, I wanted (inaudible) to let me be (inaudible) [protocol?]. I didn’t want to go overseas, you know, because (inaudible) from my grandpa, and they have a Naval base, you know. When I came out of South Carolina, I was (inaudible), every time I would see any of the soldiers (inaudible) the base, we’d throw stone on them. I lived right across the street. It was about maybe 90 feet away from my parents, the gate to the Army base. When I came back one night, me and [00:09:00] my [cousin?], we were throwing stones at the soldiers, and I didn’t see my grandma. She was looking through the window. And then, you know, she saw me throwing the stones. She told my mom that they should send me to New York or to Chicago [with one of my friends?] before I got killed. And I think that (inaudible) happened, because, you know, I was [full of hate?], you know. (Spanish) [00:09:18]. Anyway, my family, they gave me a choice to either go to Chicago or to New York. Since I had a couple uncles in Chicago, I came to live with them. I came to live at 5302 South Michigan. It was all Black and Latino around there. There were no whites around. From there, I went to 94th and (inaudible). From there, I went to the West Side, and then when I was in the West Side I got married, and I had the one Puerto Rican friend named Coco. You know, we were both musicians, so we were playing gigs here and there. Anyway, one Friday night Coco told me that they were going to play for some Puerto Rican group called the Youth Lords. I said -- I wasn’t going to play -- “I’ll go with you.” So I [00:10:00] went there, and the first thing I see -- that was when I first met you. Coco said to me, “See that little blonde guy right there, that Cha- 6 �Cha? He’s the president of the organization.” So [they were going to?] introduce us, you know, when I met you. Like, I don’t believe in gangs, you know? To me, when I went (inaudible), I saw, you know, they had a legit grief with the city for the racism and what have you. I got so involved into the scene because, you know, to me, I had gone through the process of the racism in the Army, you know, coming to Chicago. I came to live in a Black neighborhood, and I didn’t know any Latinos until I met Cha-Cha -- I mean Coco and the other, and then he introduced me to you. And then most of the people I knew, they were Black. I didn’t have no white friends at all. JJ: Now, did you ever live in Lincoln Park at all, or --? AM: Yeah. I live on -- I live right across from the church, the funeral home. I live over there. I live on 1945 North Dayton. I live on Fremont and Armitage. I live on [Beso?] -- not Beso -- yeah, Fremont and Armitage, then Beso. Then I live on Burling Street. I live through there, like -- JJ: So how was that neighborhood at that time, I mean, when you were living there? I mean, what do you remember? AM: It was a bunch of Puerto Ricans, you know, helping each other, and the city was using the gang -- you know, other things to scare people here, (inaudible), but [there were many people?] Puerto Rican neighborhood. When I came to live there, that was the biggest population of Puerto Ricans (inaudible). JJ: And about what time was that? What year was that? AM: Oh, 1967, ’68, ’68. 7 �JJ: Sixty-eight. Okay, what were some of the activities that, when you -- you know, after you started hanging around [00:12:00] with the Young Lords, what were some of the activities that you remember? AM: The churches were kind of (inaudible) rundown, so we all got together, started fixing it little by little, and I used to spend most of my time over there. JJ: Okay. And so you were there after the church was taken over? AM: Yeah, I was there for the taking of the church. JJ: And so what happened during those days? AM: The Lincoln Park [Reservation?], Association, whatever, they were (inaudible) this project in the neighborhood, and they were using the kind of tactics like harassing the businessmen, giving them citation for failing to -- it was just to get out people out of the neighborhood. Lincoln Park Association, they had a few people from [Windy City?] (inaudible) [removal?]. [00:13:00] That’s what they were doing. [They were just following?] Puerto Ricans in the neighborhood. And [I said to him?], like, [they didn’t understand?] -- we had to pack our [gang bangers?], our rice and beans, our [Puerto Rican?] men, and take off. Puerto Rican, we are the worst nationality in this country. We don’t have a selfcontrolled monetary system. Like, everybody has a system except us. Any particular country to Puerto Rico, anywhere in the world, bring money from the country, trade it for American money, and what you and I cannot buy, they can buy. I mean, my impression of Luis Gutiérrez, I was one of the first -- you know, when he won the first time, he won by ten votes. I was there with him. [That’s crazy?]. I got locked up, you know, right after he became alderman. But anyway, 8 �in those days, I was going to Northwestern University. I got locked up three times in those years, going to school, bullshit like drugs, you know, for marijuana. Cigarettes [00:14:00] kill more people than the drugs combined, but [didn’t see that?]. Anyway, they used that as an excuse, you know, to keep us down. I have a 3.54 grade point average from Northwestern University. When I was in the school -- really, when I went to jail, I was asking the people at the prison, you know, if I could finish my schooling, and they said yes, and I tried to get from Northwestern my transfer, and they said that when you are six months from getting a degree they will not transfer your transcript to no place. They gave me that kind of hassle, and they were -- all I need is three hours of Earth science, and the English language test, and the Constitution test, and I got a bachelor. But I know so many people that had more hours than me and they don’t have a bachelor, because when Governor Thompson was governor, he passed a law that said for you to [00:15:00] get a degree in Illinois you had to take and pass the English language test and the Constitution test. That [whole system?], they used that to keep minorities, like Latinos, Blacks, Oriental, out of [the degree?] program. (inaudible). I know lots of people that have enough hours to have a bachelor, but they don’t have it because the racist English language test, you know. Me, I have a 3.54 grade point average. What the hell I got to prove somebody that I speak English? If I had that kind of average, that means I can speak enough, so they use only to keep minority out of degree program. JJ: So what is that English language test? I mean, I’ve never heard of that. AM: Well, right now, in Illinois since nineteen seventy -- 9 �JJ: In Illinois [that is?] -- AM: -- seven -- uh-huh. I mean, (inaudible) pass a law that you had to take the English language test, which is a test of your knowledge of the English language. [00:16:00] It’s like a lawyer: you know, for you to become a lawyer you have to take the Bar Association test; otherwise, you’re not a lawyer. That’s essentially used to -- that’s a racist tactic. That’s what it was. JJ: And is that for everyone, or --? AM: Everyone has to take and pass the English language test. See, white people ain’t got a problem, ’cause that’s their language, you know? So that’s just used to keep poor and Latinos out of degree. JJ: Okay, going back to the Young Lords, okay, were you in any of the marches or anything like that? AM: Yeah, yeah. JJ: Can you describe one of the --? Which march were you in? AM: When [Jason?] (inaudible) killed (inaudible) -- JJ: What was that about? What happened there? AM: That day, we was (inaudible) [outside?], remember? JJ: Okay, but what happened? AM: That day, there was a party in either [Rough?] or [Spaghetti Thursday?] in the South Side -- it was in Bridgeport, you know, that real rich neighborhood -- and supposedly sometime [00:17:00] that policeman, he was dressed in plainclothes. He was, you know, painting a building across the street from where the party was, and the party was for Puerto Rican and Latino. It was English-language 10 �music. The cop didn’t like it. They came and knocked on the door and told them to put the music down because it was too loud. He went back across the street and about 20 minutes later the music went up again. He came, opened the door, and started shooting into the building, into the house, and he killed (inaudible) and wounded Spaghetti. JJ: And then what happened? Then what happened after that? Were you there that day or no? AM: No, no, we were here on (inaudible). In fact, what I was saying to you [yesterday?], we were here with the [girl?], which would be up there, you know -- JJ: (inaudible) party? AM: -- with a group, yeah. JJ: So what happened after that, after you heard about that? AM: After that, you know, we had these -- We were able to [launch?], you know, [for us to?] indict that policeman. I don’t think he would have ever got indicted, but we went to protest [00:18:00] to the Chicago Police station. We went from here to there. I don’t know, what was the guy, the Black guy that was in -- that (inaudible)? JJ: The [Culverstones?]? AM: Right, right, right. (inaudible) we got through, and we went to the march, and I have been to a lot of the marches for welfare recipients’ rights, and Latino neighborhood organizations. JJ: So that was a march against police brutality, but your father is a policeman, so -- AM: My stepfather was a policeman in Puerto Rico. 11 �JJ: Okay, so how did you feel about that, that we’re marching against the police? AM: Well, police, [it’s different?]. First of all, [if there’s?] justice and equality, [there’s no need?] for the police, you know? If everybody gets equal treatment, there’s no need for police. Police are -- in the [past?], policemen were to clean, doing all the -- but none of them have the authority to arrest people, [00:19:00] which -- for me, I never had a good relationship with policemen, you know. My stepfather, he was a policeman, you know, but he was a womanizer, and, like, at the time I got into that fight, you know, instead of going to see [how I’m?] (inaudible), he went to see a woman that he had. He didn’t come to school. That’s why I almost got beat up by that [street gang?]. But I didn’t see them as a needed thing, you know? I mean, here, you have to have (inaudible), otherwise people will [lead?] each other, but that come from the injustices that have been, you know, [productive otherwise?]. He had to get test to be a policeman. I took a test to be a case worker, to be a bilingual translator in court. All those jobs were denied to me because when I was in the Army, the Army gave me (inaudible) discharge. I ran that through my U.S. (inaudible) number. It’s a dash, and then the worst, [28B?]. [It was?] 28B; 28B means involved in [frequent?] incident of [disability?] to military and civilian authorities, unloyal soldier. That was the discharge [00:20:00] the Army gave me. And not only me, but a lot of the other soldiers that were there, because they were Black and Latino, they would get less than honorable discharge so that when they come to civilian life they cannot compete with, again, the whites. Simple as that. Racism. Now, going to over to Korea, the bill had they’re going to allow the Germans to reunite, and they’re going to 12 �give them the keys to the Vatican, you know? But we have a German Pope. Out of all the places in the world, the Germans, they had the worst record on civil rights, human rights, (inaudible) [lately?], but now for them to [reunite again?], (inaudible) had done this on purpose, you know. They have allowed them to reunite, being the racist rationality that it was. That was done on purpose to keep the white race together. Korea, North Korea and South Korea is the same country, same people, but they’re still divided, and they don’t have the kind of human rights record that the Germans had, [00:21:00] but they had the key -anyway, whoever gets the key for the Vatican runs the show. For the past [hundred?] years, the Pope was always Italian, from over there, then all of a sudden the first non-Italian Pope was the Polish Pope that just died. The Pope that was before him, he was only Pope for one month because he died. When Popes die and they cannot do an autopsy on them -- that’s against the law. So anyway, that Pope, in one month he made so many changes in the Catholic Church that they say he was a rebel. He was an Italian -- he was against a lot of (inaudible), but anyway, they wipe him off and they put the first non-Italian Pope in power that have [power?] (inaudible). That was done in cahoots with the people of Poland, you know, [Lech Wałęsa?], the Pope, and they got together [00:22:00] with [Reagan?], and they [determined their civil union?]. That was a [workplace job?]. You know, that was [planned for him?]. That Pope, he only went to Cuba when he no other choice but to go visit Castro, and the first thing he went [up there?]. Same way the Pope was [a racist like he was?], this [one?] 13 �is the same way. This Pope -- [Last good?] Pope was the one that died after 21 days, 31 days. JJ: So I take it you’re not too religious? AM: Oh, I don’t believe -- I’m not that religious. You know, I believe in God. I believe in the creator of creation, but [these have?] a white Jesus Christ and a Black devil, and, you know, [nothing?]. If Jesus ever lived, he was Black. If he was born where he was born, he couldn’t have been a white man, you know? Right now you have the white people in Israel claiming to be Israeli Jews. Bullshit. Those are people from Europe that were shipped up there during [00:23:00] Hitler’s raising hell. In 1948, they get the people’s land that was not theirs, and right now they are seen as the true Jews. Here in America, through America and the Navy, the so-called [Indians?], those are the Americans. They (inaudible) come from other places, they come here, and [out of the clear blue?] they call American. I mean, I’m a Puerto Rican. How in the hell can I be Puerto Rican and be American? How can Puerto Rico be a commonwealth, Estado libre asociado? How can you be associated and free at the same time? That’s all bullshit. Religion’s the same way. You know, [they paint?] white Jesus when Jesus was Black; they paint a Black devil when the devil was white. Lucifer, [Bluebeard?] was white. He was a white fellow. He got kicked out of heaven, and then he started -- religion is a way to control people’s feelings [and them?]. But I believe in God, the creator of creation. [00:24:00] In other words, I don’t believe in institutions (break in audio) religions. To me, religion is the same way: 14 �it’s only one God, the God that created creation. There are lesser gods and what have you, but one God. JJ: And, [again?], the Young Lords took over McCormick Theological Seminary. AM: Hmm? JJ: They took over McCormick Theological Seminary. Were you there during the takeover? AM: Yeah. JJ: And what do you remember about that? AM: That day -- it was ten o’clock in the morning -- me and [later?] Louis Chavez, we went to Armitage -- not Armitage -- [North?] (inaudible) to sell a newspaper, but they came and arrested us over there. JJ: To sell what newspaper? AM: The Young Lords paper. JJ: So [North?] (inaudible) [Walls?]? AM: Right. JJ: And so this was the day of the takeover? AM: Right. We were there for about a week (inaudible). JJ: Right. AM: Yeah, [at that old buildout?], [00:25:00] you know, I came back to the place, and it was already, you know, all going. JJ: It was already all going? So when you say it was all going, can you describe what you saw? AM: I mean, you know -- 15 �JJ: What would you see? AM: We went out there on Thursday morning. You know, certain rights that the neighborhood had, they had been taken away from us by that (inaudible) [Bank?], DePaul University, all those. They had a plan of wiping out [the neighborhood?], which they did. They wanted us there, and they used any kind of tactics they could, but they kicked us out. JJ: So how many days were you in the --? It lasted a week, so how many days were you there? AM: I was there [practically all the time?]. JJ: So, okay, what did you see? I mean, what was going on? AM: A lot of -- JJ: (Spanish) [00:25:48] -- AM: Yeah, (inaudible) -- JJ: -- (Spanish) [00:25:51]. AM: (Spanish) [00:25:56 - 00:26:03] -- I couldn’t define, you know, [a certain thing?], but I know I was (inaudible) in the neighborhood, we had to do what we had to do. [But here?], Reverend Bruce Johnson, that was a political murder, you know? They wanted him out of the neighborhood because he was the only white person that was openly there supporting us and giving us everything we need. So you’re not going to go and kill the hen that lays the golden eggs. You know, [to us?], he was a golden egg, and they [were criminals?]. They carried him out of there just to make us lose power, because there were lot of white people coming to help us. When (inaudible) killed, everybody took off, because they 16 �thought we did it, and we were blamed on the [organization?] for the sole purpose of cleaning up the neighborhood, you know? They wanted us out of the neighborhood. JJ: So they blamed the [00:27:00] Young Lords for the killing of Reverend Bruce Johnson. AM: Yes, Bruce Johnson and Eugenia Johnson. JJ: And so how did you feel about that? You were a Young Lord, [I mean, that?] -- AM: But that was -- I knew from the beginning that they found fingerprints, the cup, on the bottle of wine, and his pipe. Why has no one done anything about it? Because they wanted to make it look [unclear?] a case so that people would blame us. That’s how I see it. And the newspaper, it says they found fingerprints in his cup, and the cup of wine, and on his smoking pipe they found some fingerprints. They could have [cleared?] the case. They wanted, you know, to put the blame on the (inaudible), but that was only to get us out of the neighborhood. It was a very powerful little group [with some good?] issues. You know, people don’t understand that we, Puerto Ricans, we are [the poorest?] nationality. That way, we don’t have -- [00:28:00] Like, a white kid, when he [gang?], he get in his car and go right around and come back [and cool off?]. And us, you know, we’re [the poorest?] nationality. That’s why Luis Gutiérrez, instead of helping the Puerto Rican community [with acts?] in the Congress, he could have been there [dealing with?] (inaudible) -- you cannot transfer your SSI to Puerto Rico. [You see what?] like that, we weren’t allowed to do that. Only Puerto Ricans out here living [in the street?], they would be [leaving?] back 17 �home, but [they’re doing things?] because we are the poorest nationality. We need [secondary monetary assistance?], we need [secondary laws?], and [instead?] we have people like Luis Gutiérrez [throwing jabs?] in our face, ’cause that’s what he’s doing. Anytime one of these illegal guys becomes a citizen, or he got [a little?] family, they can send money to the bank, you know, wire, and what you cannot buy, they can buy. That’s why you don’t see people here, too many people in the streets [like that?], the Dominican Republican, Dominican -they all have a way to [00:29:00] make the money work. We have no money, so therefore we are the poorest nationality. That’s why we have all the gangbanging, all these, like -- (Spanish) [00:29:10], which means unity there’s strength. (inaudible) they have nothing to [defend?], they have to, you know -the same thing (inaudible) for day before, when they came out to go this land, [they wiped the Indians away?], but our young kids, you know, they have no other way to make it but just, you know, [you’re now in a gang?] to survive. We’re not gangbanger by nature, you know? In Puerto Rico, when I was a kid, you didn’t like somebody, somebody didn’t like you, you got into it, boom, like two men, [all away?]. Now, you got to go through all this, you know, [gang thing?], because to survive in this world we’ve got to do it. JJ: Now, you made a little poetry or something? How did that start? How did you start on that? AM: Ah, [that’s the one?] about -- I read a lot of poetry since I was about 16, but [00:30:00] I decided to become a poet June 29, 1969, when the astronaut landed on the moon. I was [staying there?] with [Chicano’s?] ID. But anyway, there, 18 �when I took a test to be a policeman, the lady that signed my papers, you know, for the American Legion, for him to change my discharge, her mother became a patient at the -- I was then helping out, when I was there, and when that lady walked in and she saw my face, she couldn’t [forget me?]. [She should remember me?]. And she was bringing her mom there to be a patient. Anyway, June 29th, her mom said to me, [about two o’clock?] in the afternoon, “Young man, can you take me to the balcony so I can see the landing in the moon?” And I thought, sure, yeah. I took her to the balcony. Two or three hours later, she was dead. And that’s when I said, you know, here people dying, you know, [incurable?] disease, and here she wanted to see the landing in the moon. I said, she died peacefully. Anyway, that day I wrote a poem titled “The Rape of the Moon.” [00:31:00] It goes like this: “Once upon a times, the [stars?] start to make love to the moon with [affair?]. Even Jupiter, Pluto, and the rest of the planets try to (inaudible), but the moon was too strong. She (inaudible) until one day the U.S.A. took poor people’s money and sent three men to rape Miss Moon. Now the moon is not a virgin anymore. It’s known all over the world. People (inaudible) in the blue sky, but the moon stood naked in front of three strangers and (inaudible) [take her?] secrets. [You have?] secrets (inaudible). She [cared for the lowest with peace.” I wrote that poem about -- I went through a metamorphosis. I went through a change. That day, after this lady dying, to me, that was [welfare?] (inaudible) to me. Until he died on my birthday, December 27th, ’77, to me, [that’s the world?], because, you know, (inaudible) them (inaudible) [to me?]. When I took a test [00:32:00] to be a policeman, Alderman 19 �[Biggs?], his nephew, (inaudible), he was about to have a meeting with a Puerto Rican at ten o’clock in the morning. We got there about 9:55 or so, and I walk into the office. He look over my shoulder, you know, looking for the Puerto Rican. And (inaudible) [to Mr. Daley?], “This is Alfredo Matias, the Puerto Rican kid that took a test to be a policeman.” And he wasn’t even mumbling. He kept looking. Then Mr. Biggs told him again, “This is Mr. Matias, the Puerto Rican.” He said, “Oh, you’re a Puerto Rican?” First time [ever since I was a kid?] -- you know, like, (inaudible) first and only time (inaudible) was that day. He said, “You’re a Puerto Rican?” And he didn’t know a Black man can be a Puerto Rican. People don’t know that before there was Black slavery in America there was Black slavery in that part of the world. They didn’t know. I mean, he was sitting in a big chair, you know, (inaudible) [looking at the Puerto Rican guy?]. (laughs) You know, man, by nature, [00:33:00] we are a territorial animal. We believe in locks and keys and fences, and this is mine, that’s yours. That’s why I (inaudible) like that. Even [political?], (inaudible) because by nature we are a territorial animal. We believe in my people, you know, who it is. Like, for instance, they think that crack cocaine is, they said, a Black invention or something like that. [No more?] sophisticated than that. Racism is same way. Things like that, where we go to here, we don’t understand. You look like my son. Yeah. JJ: So, okay, we’re going to kind of finish it up, but you’ve been a Young Lord for many years. What is it that keeps you --? You know, ’cause I see that you get angry with different things? 20 �AM: The need for (inaudible) -- when the country got into [00:34:00] Puerto Rico in June 25, 1898, when they came to Puerto Rico, Puerto Rico was a republic. You know, we were just like you are there. We were independent, with our own [monetary?] system. [That’s just?] about the war that they had back in Spain. You know, it began in Havana Harbor. It was a boat called, a shipped called the Maine. When that ship was blown away, apart, it was blown away by Americans. You know, they did that (inaudible) their own boat because the soldiers that they had there in those days, they had a Black Army and a white Army. The Black [unit?], they were called [mate shipmen?]. They were not called soldiers. Anyway, the people that then [is advertising?] Havana Harbor, they were [Afro?] American. They were not Hawaiian, [Negro?], and that was done -- they were getting right to go against Spain, and Spain had no business, you know, in selling, giving us to them. You know, that was bullshit. They came there [00:35:00] just (inaudible) find with guns drawn, and this is a stick-up. Same with here in Iraq, you know, weapons of mass destruction. Unless you consider oil a weapon of mass destruction, they were [selling the?] country. For the past 16 years, then they could make all the oil they wanted. They could [only sell certain amount of oil?], or whatever they were allowed to sell, the rest they were storing, and for 16 years they kept storing oil [back?]. They had the second biggest oil surplus in the world, Iraq had, you know? When (inaudible), they were selling that oil, they were (inaudible) that system, and (inaudible) the country, you want to stick ’em up, you know? Here we are. [Injustice?] American style, you know? JJ: Okay, what’s the -- anything else that you would like to add to this at this point? 21 �AM: (inaudible) -- [00:36:00] Uh -- I guess I would -- JJ: (Spanish) [00:36:04]? AM: (Spanish) [00:36:05]. JJ: (Spanish) [00:36:07]. AM: (Spanish) [00:36:07]. No, no, [Chicago Rican first?]. JJ: Okay. AM: (inaudible) had two titles. The first title is “I Ain’t Got Nothing Against Italians and [Dominican?] or Chicago Rican.” Rican, or Chicago Rican. He’s not a happy American because, you know, he’s not an American; he’s just a Rican. Dominican or Chicago Rican -- (inaudible) -- Dominican or Chicago Rican, he’s not a happy American because he know he’s a Rican, not American but just Rican, as much an immigrant as the rest of the Latin (inaudible) American, but (inaudible) history and experience (inaudible) [very happy?] Rican. You see, [the only character?] (inaudible) that we are allowed to portray is Al Capone. To me, Al Capone [was not a?] Rican. Yeah. [00:37:00] (Spanish) [00:37:02 - 00:37:18]. JJ: (Spanish) [00:37:21]. AM: Uh-huh. (Spanish) [00:37:23 - 00:37:42]. (pause) (Spanish) [00:37:51]. JJ: [Any questions?] -- END OF VIDEO FILE 22 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/e91315b64b93feb316f1fbb1a4ba8623.mp4 9cf0338c08ee47bf8a93d7435f280b22 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Alfredo Matias vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Veteranos--Relatos personales Artes, Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Religión Iglesia Católica Racismo--Estados Unidos Relaciones raciales Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Matias_Alfredo Title A name given to the resource Alfredo Matias video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Matias, Alfredo Description An account of the resource Alfredo Matias is the son of Doña Carmen García and a Young Lord going back to the mid-1960s. Mr. Matias joined the Young Lords during the Month of Soul Dances at St. Michael’s Church Gymnasium in Lincoln Park. Mr. Matias lived in Lincoln Park and also in Wicker Park for many years. He was forced from the military because he refused to accept an order that would have sent him to Cuba to fight alongside other Puerto Ricans in the Bay of Pigs invasion, against the sovereignty of Cuba. Mr. Matias grew up in Sabana Seca, Puerto Rico. Today Mr. Matias is home in Puerto Rico, content to be by his mother’s side, and still writing his poetry. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Veterans--Personal narratives Arts, Puerto Rican--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Religion Catholic Church Racism--United States Race relations Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-04-02 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/136aebe17b9adbb33362618e32ce9d03.pdf a24d36534d35cff5503f5d9eb3e122cf PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Pedro J. Mateo Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/8/2012 Biography and Description English Pedro Mateo is from Salinas, Puerto and now lives in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He first came to Grand Rapids in the 1950s, but quickly moved to Indiana Harbor to work in the steel mills alongside many other Puerto Rican immigrants of that era. Mr. Mateo describes the steel mill culture and the Puerto Rican community that developed in Indiana Harbor beginning in the 1940s. After a short time in Indiana Harbor, Mr. Mateo moved with his family to Van Buren Street near Ashland Avenue in Chicago, in the barrio area then known to Puerto Ricans as La Madison. La Madison and La Clark were two Puerto Rican barrios carved out of two high density neighborhoods where old, dilapidated hotel rooms were converted into low rent apartments. These areas attracted large numbers of Puerto Rican immigrants because most saw their move to Chicago as temporary, offering the possibility of making higher wages so they could return to the island. In the 1960s, Mr. Mateo moved to Addison Ave. and Wilson Street, next to Wrigley Field. It was here that he first met the Young Lords. Mr. Mateo describes his daily travels by train to La Clark to work at “Las Gomas,” or a rubber factory, by New Orleans and Chicago Avenue. He ultimately returned to Grand Rapids, where his large, extended family plays a prominent role in the city’s Latino community. �Spanish Pedro Matea es de Salinas, Puerto Rico y ahora vive en Grand Rapids, Michigan. El primero vino a Grand Rapids en los 1950s pero decidió mudarse a Indiana Harbor para trabar en la acería con otros inmigrantes Puertorriqueños en esa aria. Aquí Señor Mateo describe como era la cultura de la acería y la comunidad que desarrollo en Indiana Harbor (empezando en 1940). Después do un tiempo en Indian Harbor, Señor Mateo se mudo con su familia a Van Buren Street cerca de Ashland Avenue en Chicago en el barrio que llaman, La Madison. La Madison y La Clark eran dos barrios Puertorriqueños en donde hoteles fueron convertidos ah apartamentos alquilados bajo. Estas arias atrajeron muchos Puertorriqueños porque muchos vieron este mudo a Chicago como temporario y hacia la posibilidad de juntar más dinero para regresar a Puerto Rico. En los 1960s, Señor Mateo se mudo a Addison Ave y Wilson Street, alado de Wrigley Field. Aquí fue donde conoció a los Young Lords. Señor Mateo también habla sobre sus viajes diarios a La Clark por tren para trabajar en “Las Gomas” la factoría por New Orleans y Chicago Avenue. Pedro Mateo finalmente regreso a Grand Rapids donde la mayoría de su familia jugo una parte grande de la comunidad Latina. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6bb098876e9e13dd4e48be0a77b221d1.mp4 e87f9e4c058c76b2e634cbfed48e75ca Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Pedro J. Mateo vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Pedro Matea es de Salinas, Puerto Rico y ahora vive en Grand Rapids, Michigan. El primero vino a Grand Rapids en los 1950s pero decidió mudarse a Indiana Harbor para trabar en la acería con otros inmigrantes Puertorriqueños en esa aria. Aquí Señor Mateo describe como era la cultura de la acería y la comunidad que desarrollo en Indiana Harbor (empezando en 1940). Después do un tiempo en Indian Harbor, Señor Mateo se mudo con su familia a Van Buren Street cerca de Ashland Avenue en Chicago en el barrio que llaman, La Madison. La Madison y La Clark eran dos barrios Puertorriqueños en donde hoteles fueron convertidos ah apartamentos alquilados bajo. Estas arias atrajeron muchos Puertorriqueños porque muchos vieron este mudo a Chicago como temporario y hacia la posibilidad de juntar más dinero para regresar a Puerto Rico. En los 1960s, Señor Mateo se mudo a Addison Ave y Wilson Street, alado de Wrigley Field. Aquí fue donde conoció a los Young Lords. Señor Mateo también habla sobre sus viajes diarios a La Clark por tren para trabajar en “Las Gomas” la factoría por New Orleans y Chicago Avenue. Pedro Mateo finalmente regreso a Grand Rapids donde la mayoría de su familia jugo una parte grande de la comunidad Latina. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Idioma español--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Mateo_Pedro Title A name given to the resource Pedro J. Mateo video interview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mateo, Pedro Description An account of the resource Pedro Mateo is from Salinas, Puerto Rico and now lives in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He first came to Grand Rapids in the 1950s, but quickly moved to Indiana Harbor to work in the steel mills alongside many other Puerto Rican immigrants of that era. Mr. Mateo describes the steel mill culture and the Puerto Rican community that developed in Indiana Harbor beginning in the 1940s. After a short time in Indiana Harbor, Mr. Mateo moved with his family to Van Buren Street near Ashland Avenue in Chicago, in the barrio area then known to Puerto Ricans as La Madison. In the 1960s, Mr. Mateo moved to Addison Ave. and Wilson Street, next to Wrigley Field. It was here that he first met the Young Lords. Mr. Mateo describes his daily travels by train to La Clark to work at “Las Gomas,” or a rubber factory, by New Orleans and Chicago Avenue. He ultimately returned to Grand Rapids, where his large, extended family plays a prominent role in the city’s Latino community. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Spanish language--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Language A language of the resource spa Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-08 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/59fed968f91e90c58d1840c561bcd04e.pdf d28eede4383d0dcb3e2448b0cb6df3a8 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Patrick Mateo Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/22/2012 Biography and Description Patrick Mateo is a Young Lord who was born in the United States but lived many years in Puerto Rico. His family is from Salinas. But he and his siblings grew up in Chicago starting at Van Buren, the old La Madison barrio, and in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He is currently living in Puerto Rico. Mr. Mateo fixes his own cars and studied carpentry and building maintenance. He can build you a house from scratch. His mother lived in a convent for some time and attends church regularly at St. Joseph’s in Grand Rapids. Mr. Mateo, who also dabbles in music, has played and sung for the church choir. He is a community organizer. Mr. Mateo has also worked on several Young Lords projects including the Latino Support Group that became the first bilingual, bicultural support group in Grand Rapids. The Latino Support Group was a volunteer program that received referrals from the courts and probation departments to assist Latinos with substance abuse issues. Mr. Mateo also helped to organize the KO CLUB, an afterschool neighborhood program to prevent youth from becoming involved with gang violence. And he also helped to organize several Lincoln Park Camps in Michigan, to educate people about the Young Lords and to recruit volunteers who would assist in documenting their history. Each of the camps were self-supported by a donated fee, provided a weekend get-away, and proved positive and memorable events. Mr. Mateo has a large family that looks to him as its leader. The Fernández side is also large and well established in Grand Rapids. They include church pastors, school principals, and businesspersons. �He describes rough times and perseverance. And he remains a role model and pacesetter for others in his community. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, all right. Patrick, just give me your name, your date of birth, and where you were born. PATRICK MATEO: My name is Patrick Mateo. I was born in Grand Rapids, Michigan in 1957. JJ: Okay. In Grand Rapids, Michigan? PM: Correct. JJ: Okay, now, who was living here at that time with you? PM: Well, we didn’t live in Grand Rapids much. We moved to Chicago, so I lived most of my life, I lived in Chicago. Until my parents got divorced, we lived in Chicago, and from Chicago, we went to Puerto Rico. JJ: When you were here in Grand Rapids at that time, who was here with you? You said “we”. PM: Well, we had a whole family here. I mean, it started as a small group. [00:01:00] It was a small Puerto Rican community, and most of, a lot of the Puerto Rican community, a lot of it was, we had a big family. JJ: Okay. PM: So, I mean -- JJ: So, who was with you, I mean, when you were born? Who lived here? PM: I was living with my uncle. We lived in one of his apartments he was renting. JJ: What’s his name -- what’s his name? 1 �PM: His name was Pio Fernández. Yeah, he was a very well-known person in Grand Rapids, Pio Fernández. JJ: Pio Fernández? PM: Correct. Then later, he’d become owner of a bar. It was one of the first Puerto Rican bar they had here in Grand Rapids, 'cause they really didn’t have that many Latinos in that time. But I don’t remember much. All I remember, when we moved to Chicago, we used to come back and forth, like we’d come on vacation from school. JJ: Okay. Were you with your mother? PM: Mother, yeah, parents, brothers. JJ: What’s your mother’s name? PM: Rosa Perez. JJ: Rosa Perez? PM: [00:02:00] And I have brothers. JJ: Your father’s name? PM: Pedro Jesu Mateo. JJ: Okay, and your brothers? PM: My brothers, there was four of us, four brothers, and two girls. The two girls were born in Chicago. JJ: Okay, so the four brothers were here? PM: Correct. JJ: Three brothers. PM: Three and I. 2 �JJ: Okay, what are the three brothers’ names? PM: I had Pablo Mateo, Jesu Mateo, and Pedro Luz Mateo. JJ: And what about your sisters? PM: My sisters, Olga Mateo and [Elsa?] Mateo. JJ: And they were here too at that time? PM: No, they were born in Chicago. We were living in Chicago. When we were born, we didn’t live here long. JJ: Okay, how long did you live here, about? PM: As far as I remember, probably we moved when -- probably six years old, I was about six years old. JJ: Okay. Do you remember anything at all from six years old? You might remember something. PM: Well, we were coming back and forth. I remember we went to Chicago, and I guess in Chicago, [00:03:00] we had a struggle 'cause it was a whole different environment than Grand Rapids. It was a big city, a lot going on. We had to watch it all the time. When we’d get out of school, we’d get beat up by bigger kids. They’d take our money, our lunch money. (laughs) JJ: What neighborhood was this? PM: This was Van Buren. JJ: You were on Van Buren? PM: Yeah, we were raised on Van Buren. JJ: Do you remember what address? 3 �PM: No. All I remember is playgrounds we used to play. They had holes in the grounds that we used to go, and tunnels. JJ: Holes in the ground, you mean like sewers? PM: Like sewers, we used to go play under the sewers, you know, when we were kids. JJ: You mean like where they used to have like charcoal, or not charcoal, for the heater? PM: Probably that’s what -- yeah, I was small, so this is as much as I remember. JJ: So, they had these sewers, and you would go under the ground? PM: We used to go underground, correct. We used to go underground and play, and my parents’d be looking for me, screaming, “Hey, where are you?” You know, and [00:04:00] when I went home, then (Spanish) [00:04:02]. But yeah, we used to have fun, but it was also a big struggle. JJ: So, (Spanish) [00:04:09] meaning you got beat up by the old man or the mom? PM: We got beat up by the old man, by the kids in the neighborhoods, you know, the prietos. They used to grab us and take -- you know. JJ: It was a Black and Puerto Rican neighborhood? PM: It was a Black and Puerto Rican neighborhood, and [they were no?] blanquitos, but they were like kinda -- JJ: So, (inaudible) White? PM: Yeah, you know, they stuck with us. JJ: So, the Whites and Puerto Ricans were together, and then you guys had fights with the Blacks? 4 �PM: Correct. Then we’d have fights. JJ: Was this gang or just neighborhood kids? PM: Well, I didn’t know. I was too young to know that there were gangs, but, you know, they were like groups, little groups. I didn’t have the understanding of [00:05:00] what were gangs at that time. I was probably nine years old, eight years old, as long as I can remember. JJ: This is all on Van Buren? PM: This is all on Van Buren. I mean, I was, that year -- JJ: Was it by Kedzie, by Halsted? PM: I think it was Van Buren -- JJ: Racine or Ashland? PM: I think between Western and California or something. JJ: Something between Western or California and Van Buren Street? Do you remember, were you going to school? PM: Well, yeah. We went to Catholic school, so (laughs) every time we’d get out of Catholic school, there they were, waiting for us. We had a little radio that our parents would buy us. You know those little radio they used to carry at that time? We had to hide it because they would come to grab it, and then they’d beat you up. JJ: They beat you, and they took the radios. They took your money. PM: They took our money. We couldn’t do anything. We had to keep walking. I mean, there was all the Latinos, and they usually picked more on the [00:06:00] 5 �little kids. They were bigger kids, so, you know, they’d come, and they’d take the stuff from us, and we couldn’t do anything else. JJ: Oh, was it Latinos doing it too? PM: No, just Blacks. JJ: Blacks were doing it? PM: Yeah, it was like the Blacks and Latinos, mixed Black and Latinos, not many Whites. You know, that was the neighborhood that we were staying around. JJ: And they were older Blacks taking the -- PM: Correct. They were like teens, and we were younger, in the nine, eight year. JJ: Do you remember what school you went to? PM: I think it was Saint Patrick’s. JJ: Saint Patrick’s? PM: Yeah, around that area. And I remember the nuns. Also, the nuns used to beat up. If we said something wrong, they used to put soap in our mouth. I mean, now, they didn’t do it to me, but I seen it being done at a time, because at that time, I don't know, they did stuff like that, you know, put soap in your mouth. I don't know. You ever went to a Catholic school? JJ: Yeah. PM: Yeah, a lot of kids. Oh, and then we used to join [00:07:00] the YMCA too, to stay out of trouble. We didn’t want to be in the street. JJ: And still, you were on Van Buren? PM: We were still on Van Buren. JJ: So, where was the YMCA at? 6 �PM: It was around that area. JJ: Right in around there? PM: Yeah. They used to come pick us up, take us, and bring us back, so that kinda kept us outta trouble a little bit. JJ: You were getting into trouble? PM: Well, not us, the neighborhood, yeah. They had like bigger kids trying to get kids to steal for them because, you know, younger kids don’t go to jail because their age, so teenagers around the neighborhood, that’s what was happening at that time. JJ: They wanted you to steal for them? Or what kind of stuff? PM: They’d take you downtown. You know, you’re a kid. You put your money in -- I don’t know if you remember at that time, they had like you’d grab a newspaper, and you’d put the money. JJ: I remember, I used to -- That was my newspaper you went to -- (laughter) They used to have a cigar box, and then people would put the money [00:08:00] for the paper [and things?]. Your guys would take the money? PM: These teenagers or older guys, they’d take you out there, “Hey, let’s go to downtown,” a little group, and that’s what we would do. We’d go around, and they’d go to entertain the guy that was in the stand, and then we’d go up there. We’d put our money in there and grab a whole bunch of change, and then we kept doing it little by little, and then we’d get a whole bunch, you know. And that’s how most of our life went. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) 7 �PM: Yeah, that’s the type I life we were doing in Chicago, and that’s young, you know, started. And I guess my parents, they found out about it, my dad, and then he sent us to Puerto Rico. JJ: So, you got sent to Puerto Rico at what age? PM: Well, I was about probably 11, 10 years old, and Puerto Rico, you think -- JJ: So, they sent you to Puerto Rico to -- PM: To get us out of the neighborhood in Chicago because we -- JJ: The police ever come to the house or anything like that? PM: Well, yeah, they had me, and police would take me and [00:09:00] interrogated me, you know, to tell on the guy. And I never told on him, and stuff like that, so everything, well, the guy went back home, and they never went to jail. JJ: So, Van Buren was a little rowdy, a little bit. PM: It was a little rowdy. They were killing. I mean, they killed our neighbor. She had like a little restaurant, and I remember when I was a kid, we all loved her in the neighborhood. And one day, somebody came, and they -- JJ: She was Puerto Rican? PM: And they robbed ‘em, and they shot ‘em. No, they were White. JJ: They were White? PM: Yeah. JJ: But somebody robbed ‘em and shot ‘em? They don’t know who it was? PM: No. I don’t think anybody -- you know, they was trying to probably figure out who it was, but I don’t think they’d ever found out. You know, type of information like that, when you’re kid, you don’t know any of that. 8 �JJ: This was your neighbor (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) PM: In the neighborhood, there was a lot of people hanging out, I remember now clearly that I used to go by -- they’d go in the buildings in the basement and get high. [00:10:00] JJ: So, this was in the ’60s, in the early, middle ’60s? PM: Yeah, in the ’60s. I remember they -- high, heroin. They were sniffing. I don't know what they were -- you know, everybody was like sniffing off of like a handkerchief. JJ: (inaudible) bags, the handkerchief? PM: Yeah, they were sniffing. JJ: It wasn’t like a rag? PM: There were some bags. JJ: It was handkerchief, so it was like (inaudible) or something? PM: Yeah, all kind of just sitting there, all high. JJ: So, when you say you remember guys were doing that, you weren’t doing that. PM: Oh, no, no, no. I was in, you know -- JJ: You saw other people doing it. PM: Yeah. That’s all you see around that neighborhood. Van Buren was bad. You know, it was bad. JJ: What do you mean, it was bad? PM: It was bad in the sense that it had a lot of robberies, a lot of killing. People used to come from other neighborhoods, come to our neighborhood and break things, and shootouts and all kinds of stuff like that. 9 �JJ: Shootouts? PM: Yeah. JJ: You mean [00:11:00] other groups would come to shoot at you? PM: No, they’d come shoot at other like little clubs or little groups. JJ: What were some of the groups that were there? Do you remember? PM: My understanding, that’s where the Kings started. JJ: On Van Buren? PM: You know, part of the Kings, they started over at Van Buren, around that neighborhood. You could tell the way they dressed at that time, they were dressed with the suspenders and some pants, you know. You’d say, “Yeah, they’re the Kings,” because they showed theirselves. They have their, como se dice, su marca. JJ: So, su marca, “their mark”? PM: Yeah, the way they looked, and now they use the colors. At that time, I don’t think it was more through colors. No, it was the way they dressed. JJ: The way they dressed, you could tell they were gangbangers? PM: Correct. Yeah. JJ: From that group? So, they would dress like with suspenders? PM: (Spanish) [Suspenders, los pantalones, eso ancho que tenía como --?] [00:11:53] JJ: Oh, Gouster? Those Gouster pants? PM: (Spanish) [Como, tenía como pachuco así --?] [00:11:58], yeah, similar. [00:12:00] JJ: Oh, pachuco. Similar like that? 10 �PM: So, that’s how you identify -- JJ: Any hats? Were they were wearing hats? PM: (Spanish) [La gorrita, también --?] [00:12:04]. I mean, it was pretty -- and then after that, we went to Puerto Rico. Puerto Rico was worse. Over there, you know, you go over there -- JJ: So, you went to Puerto Rico. Where did you go? What part of Puerto Rico? PM: We went to Salinas in the south of Puerto Rico, by Ponce, between Ponce and Guayama and all that area around there. JJ: And so, how was that like? PM: That was bad because over there, there was racism también. JJ: What do you mean, racism? PM: Racism among the Puerto Rican-Puerto Rican and they call us Americanos, the Americanos Puerto Ricans, which they didn’t like at that time. JJ: Oh, so the Puerto Ricans that were raised in Puerto Rico didn’t like the Puerto Ricans from here. PM: Yeah, they called ‘em the Nuyoricans or Americanos. JJ: The Nuyoricans? PM: Or Americanos, they’d call ‘em. JJ: Or the Americans, Americano. PM: Americano, they still do that. Y’know, they call you, “Ah, Americano.” JJ: So, you felt that racism? PM: Oh, yeah. You know, [00:13:00] I fought in school at last three, four times a month. 11 �JJ: You had to fight? PM: I had to fight. I had to because they would force you, you know. At that time, you would tell a teacher, but I mean, at that time, teachers didn’t really get involved in things like that. So, we did what we had to do. JJ: What is it that they didn’t like? PM: They didn’t like you. If they don’t like you, they’ll say, “Hey, meet me at the park at this time,” and that’s it. You know, that’s when I was growing up. There was a couple guys, y’know, so [they wou --?] JJ: But was it from the Puerto Ricans that were coming from here over there or more like from the ones that were there to the ones over here? PM: It was more with the ones from over here going over there. I mean, they had problems with people that were there already, but -- JJ: So, the ones that came from here, from the United States, and went to Puerto Rico, they were badder than the -- PM: I don’t -- they just didn’t like ‘em. [00:14:00] JJ: They didn’t like the Puerto Ricans that were there? PM: They didn’t like Puerto Ricans that -- no, it wasn’t the Puerto Ricans that came from here to there. It was the Puerto Ricans with the Americanos. JJ: Okay, they didn’t like the Americans. PM: They didn’t like the Americans. At that time -- JJ: The American Puerto Ricans. PM: Correct. Americans or American Puerto Ricans. (laughter) 12 �JJ: They didn’t like Americans or Puerto Rican Americans. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) PM: They didn’t care, whoever it was. JJ: This was in Salinas? PM: Oh, it wasn’t just in Salinas. It was all over. But I mean, I’m telling you about Salinas. JJ: What year was that? PM: This was probably, wow, in early ’70s. JJ: Early ’70s? PM: Yeah. I remember, I think they were still the (Spanish) [estaba acabando la Guerra de --?] [00:14:43] Vietnam. JJ: Oh, okay, so it was in the early ’70s. PM: So, it was in the early ’70s. JJ: So, that’s when -- PM: That was right past the ’69 -- JJ: (inaudible) ’69 and -- PM: Correct. JJ: -- ’70 and stuff like that. Oh, okay, so you can feel that there was a tension there, that there was a tension at that time. PM: Yes. [00:15:00] There was a tension in school. Then I had to get out of school. I joined the Job Corps in Puerto Rico to get out of school so I could get a training and go to work. JJ: Why did you want to get out of school? 13 �PM: Because I was having problems in school, and I was fighting. JJ: Fighting, and the learning in school? PM: And not learning because -- JJ: Was it hard? PM: -- I was worried. I had to go to school every day, and something new was gonna come up. And the only people that I had was my brothers because there were four of us, and we gotta stick together. JJ: So, all four of your brothers were there? PM: Yeah, all four, the whole family, talking about the whole family, correct. JJ: From Van Buren, they went to Puerto Rico? PM: So, it was like our brothers was the little club or the little gang that we had to help each other. JJ: Okay, so you were just in the family. PM: In the family, because we went to the same school, most of us, because we [00:16:00] were close to the same age, so if anything happened, then, you know, one of the guys say, “Hey, your brother, he’s having problems,” so I run over there, and you know, we took care of it. Or he would hear something, and he runs over here, and we would take care of it, and that’s how it went all the time. After we grew up, then we grew up, and everything changed. I guess people got used to the Puerto Ricans going. You know how this works. You know, it’s a new generation and everything. JJ: So, you were there for how many years? PM: I think we stayed -- let me see. 14 �JJ: From ’70s to when? PM: Probably ten years. JJ: Ten more years, until the ’80s? PM: Until I turned old enough, and then I came to United States. JJ: ‘til the 1980s? PM: No, earlier probably. JJ: Before the ’80s? PM: (inaudible) ’78, ’79. JJ: And so, after that, you started getting along with the Puerto Ricans there? [00:17:00] PM: Well, before I left, I know I have problems. I had to come over here. That was one of the problems. JJ: What was one of the problems? What do you mean? PM: Oh, problems with, you know, fighting, and something went outta hand, so, you know, I came. I just wanted to come over here and cool off a little bit, and I stayed with my parents. JJ: Something went on that’s serious, something serious? PM: Well, yeah, something serious, so then after that -- JJ: But you can’t talk about it? PM: I can’t talk about it. JJ: So, you had to leave there. 15 �PM: I had to leave. Then I came. Then I come and live with my dad in Chicago, and I stayed with my dad. And then after that, I was from like Chicago, and here, Chicago and Grand Rapids, and Chicago and Grand Rapids, back and forth. JJ: So, you came back to Chicago to what neighborhood? PM: Okay, let me see. JJ: Now, you only went to school there, right? PM: To Chicago? JJ: When you were in Puerto Rico, did you get to the Job Corps? [00:18:00] PM: Yeah, I went to the Job Corps. The Job Corps, same thing, same thing, same thing, fighting. Oh, God, you couldn’t get outta Job Corps because there was another racist. I mean, Puerto Rico was crazy. I mean, you got stories, like you go to -- what they call that -- Hogar CREA? I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of it. JJ: I’ve heard of it. PM: You know, that -- you know. They had racism about them people. JJ: Hogar CREA is a rehab. PM: Correct. They didn’t like the people from Hogar CREA. They didn’t like the people from the Job Corps. It was chaos. JJ: Oh, even in an organization, they didn’t get along either. PM: Correct. JJ: So, people was real divided then. PM: At the time that I was growing up, yes. Now it’s more liberal. JJ: Relaxed. 16 �PM: Yeah. And from then, like I said, I came over here, not here, I came to Chicago. Chicago was pretty good. You know, I like it. We had fun. JJ: So, you went to Chicago to what neighborhood? PM: I went to the neighborhood, [00:19:00] I think it was Clark. JJ: Clark Street? PM: Yeah, it was from Clark. I can’t remember the other street, but it was close to the park. They had railroad tracks; they used to run right over the apartment we used to live at. JJ: By Clark, you mean, over by Chicago Avenue? PM: It was by Clark Street. JJ: At Clark? And they had a railroad track, I’m trying to figure out --. PM: Yeah, I can’t remember that. That’s years ago. I can’t remember the address. JJ: But was it by Chicago Avenue or Grand? PM: No, Grand is the other way, I think. I think it’s over way -- is that west, west (inaudible) when you go to the lake, west of the other side. JJ: Oh, by the lake? PM: No, (Spanish) [pasando para otra para --?] [00:19:53] west, Lake and North, no? JJ: Oh, by Lake Street. PM: No, by the lake, [00:20:00] the lago, there. JJ: By the big main street? PM: Yeah. JJ: So, it was right around there. PM: Around there. 17 �JJ: So, you had the train, but it was underneath. PM: No, no, no. The train go over, over there. Anyways, it was around Clark area, the Clark area. That was where. I can’t remember, but then after that, we moved because (Spanish) [-- también de blanquito --?] [00:20:19]. That was, it was too expensive. We couldn’t afford it. JJ: Oh, that was Lincoln Park, man. You’re talking about Lincoln Park, not Clark, the Lincoln Park neighborhood. PM: But it had that Clark Street around. JJ: Yeah, they had Clark Street, but the train wasn’t on Clark Street. It was more on the -- PM: No, no, it wasn’t on Clark Street, no. Clark Street, it’s a big street. JJ: Okay, so you lived like around Clark? PM: Around that area, yeah. JJ: Around Clark Street? But was it by Hermitage or North Avenue? PM: I can’t tell you. I don't know where that is. JJ: Okay, so you lived around Clark Street. PM: Yeah, I lived around Clark Street, yeah. JJ: Okay, and then how was that neighborhood? PM: The neighborhood (Spanish) [ah blanquito --?] [00:20:55], then we stayed there for a little bit. Then, we moved. Then, we went, we lived to the north side [00:21:00] of town, north Chicago. JJ: Oh, you’re talking about by Wrigley Field. Is that where you’re talking about, by Clark, by Wrigley Field? 18 �PM: El parque. JJ: Yeah, by Addison and Clark and that area by Wrigley Field. PM: (Spanish) [Aha, por allí. Por allí, sí, sí --?] [00:21:14] JJ: So, you went to that neighborhood by Wrigley Field. PM: No, we didn’t live there long. We moved. Then I think dad had a girlfriend, so they kinda break out, so we moved. And then from there -- JJ: The whole family lived up there? PM: No, no, no. It was just my dad and I. Then I think my brother went with us, but he didn’t like it, so he went back. JJ: Your mom stayed where? PM: She stayed in Puerto Rico. There were other family. They got divorced and everything. There were other family. JJ: Okay, so they split up at that time? PM: Correct. JJ: So, did you work at that time? Were you working? PM: I wasn’t working. I think I was too young to work. I’m pretty sure I probably [00:22:00] was too young. I needed like paperwork and stuff like that. But once we moved out of there, I think then we moved to the north side, around Chicago, Damen, that area, or through Wood, all that area through there, and Augusta and all that. Then we moved on there. JJ: So, how long did you live there? 19 �PM: Oh, we lived there for years. We moved just a couple buildings [down?], stuff like that, but we stayed around that area. I’m pretty sure I was probably there about ten years. JJ: About ten years? PM: Yeah. JJ: So, this is like late ’70s, like ’78? PM: It’s like ’70s. JJ: The ’70s and ’80s? PM: And the ’80s. JJ: Okay, so ’70s and ’80s, you were around Chicago Avenue, Wood Street, Damen. PM: Correct. JJ: That area. What was that neighborhood like? PM: That was a good neighborhood. I mean, we used to party. That was the times when we played congas in the street and sing. [00:23:00] JJ: In the street or in the park? PM: In the streets, in the park, you know, all over. JJ: And you got into conga? PM: Yeah, I started playing some conga. JJ: Were you always into music or no? PM: No, I learned in Chicago. I started playing. JJ: Who were you hanging out with? PM: We used to hang around the -- around the [water?] area with the Mighty Grands. My cousin was part of the Mighty Grands. I mean, we were in that. 20 �JJ: I thought the Mighty Grands were like Italians, or were they mixed? PM: No, all the ones I knew were Puerto Ricans. JJ: All the ones you knew, the Mighty Grands, Puerto Ricans at that time? PM: That was around the Wood area. JJ: Okay, but it was mixed too, or wasn’t it? PM: The ones I knew, they were all Puerto Rican. They had the Playboys next to the Mighty Grands. JJ: Oh, okay, maybe that’s who. PM: I think they were Italians. They had a bar that was called the Playboy, and then they had [00:24:00] a little Playboy bar, and they were called all the Playboys. I mean, we used to go by that neighborhood, and then you’d hear shootings. JJ: Okay, so you guys fought with the Playboys at that time. PM: Well, I didn’t fight. I was not (Spanish) [-- natural --?] [00:24:13]. I was never in gangs. You know, I used to be around ‘em. I used to hang around by the Unknowns, the Kings, all these gangs, ‘cause at that time, when I was growing up, they had gangs in every corner. JJ: So, they had the Unknowns, the Kings. What other groups? PM: They had the Mighty Grands. They had the Superior Gangsters, and (Spanish) [00:24:44]. It’s been years. JJ: But you were neutral. PM: I was neutral. I was never interested in gangs. You know, yes, I would hang around with them. We’d drink, get high, stuff like that. JJ: Get high on what? What’d you get high on? 21 �PM: What was that? JJ: What [00:25:00] did you get high on at that time? PM: We used to -- just weed. JJ: Weed and stuff like that. Did you drink beer, wine? PM: Wine, yeah, wine was a big thing in those times. JJ: Richard’s? PM: Yeah, Richard, MD 20/20 in there. (laughs) Yeah, I mean, we used to run around. Oh, no, wait a minute. I remember those times too, they had the acid. I don't know if you ever, you know. You’d be tripping on that acid. They had that angel dust, you know. They had a whole bunch of the stuff, you know, those things. JJ: Did you try all that stuff? PM: Oh, I tried a lot of that stuff, you know, yeah, when growing up. I mean, it was crazy because it was all over. That was that era where everybody was getting high. I mean, there was also -- JJ: This was the early ’70s and late ’80s? PM: Yeah, like in ’76, ’78, around there. JJ: You’d still get high on (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). PM: (Spanish) [Yeah, eso también […] --?] [00:25:55] hippies (Spanish) [00:26:00] JJ: But that was not a hippie neighborhood. PM: No, no, no, this was a Latino neighborhood. I think it was Latinos and White. JJ: Latino meaning Mexican and Puerto Rican? 22 �PM: They had some Mexicans, well, not as much, but they had ‘em, and a couple Blacks. They didn’t have many Blacks. JJ: This is Chicago, Damen, that area, the Wood Street? PM: (inaudible) from downtown, coming all the way to Chicago Avenue, all the way down to Lowell, passing Kedzie and probably around there. JJ: So, Chicago Avenue was the street -- PM: Yeah, that was the main street. JJ: -- that you followed, the Mighty Grand thing. PM: Well, they didn’t run all that area because they had other gangs on the other side, you know, like the Unknowns that were over to the -- by Humboldt Park and that, and the Kings, and then the Kings, the Cobras later and stuff like that, y’know, that came out. Other gangs started coming out. JJ: So, you just hung out on what street? What street are you [00:27:00] hanging out on? PM: I hang out on Wood, right there. They had a little park there. JJ: Wood and Chicago, right there? PM: Yeah, al lado de -- they had a police station, so we’d hang right across the street. They had a little (Spanish) [-- nombre parque de -- que Valle a --?] [00:27:15]. Geez, I forgot, I don’t think it’s Wood Park, right? They don’t have a --? JJ: There’s no Eckhart Park. That’s the other. PM: No. They had a little park there. That’s where we’d hang all night. We’d listen to music, and we’d hang out with our girls, you know, with our oldies on. The oldies, yeah, they had that oldies station. You’d put it on late at night. 23 �JJ: Like WVON, the oldies, the Black station? PM: Yeah, they used to play all those like lowrider music and stuff like that, so we’d hang out with our girls, drink some wine and stuff. JJ: And just kinda party with girls and stuff like that? PM: Yeah, just hang out. And we never -- JJ: Not really into gangs. PM: No, it was like [00:28:00] a neighborhood club, you know. That’s all it was. We weren’t out shooting people or nothing like that. It was just protection for us, and that’s all we did. JJ: And once in a while, you had somebody come from somewhere else. PM: Yeah, but that was rarely. It was very rare. I’d see more action at Humboldt Park when I used to go to Humboldt Park. In those years, at Humboldt Park, I mean, that was chaos. JJ: What was Humboldt Park like? PM: Well, Humboldt Park, well, you know. You was around there, everybody playing the congas, (Spanish) [-- tabaco, “Hey, tabaco!” Tengo -- cómo --?] [00:28:29] -- I don't know how they call it -- they had heroin, everything, anything you wanted, even a woman if you wanted a woman. I was young then, and I was wild. This is like -- JJ: Free open market. PM: Yeah, open market for everything, right at Humboldt Park. I mean, it was good times ‘cause, you know, we were al -- (Spanish)[-- Boricua. No sabe ya --?] [00:28:53]. You didn’t see blancos. You didn’t [00:29:00] see no other (Spanish) 24 �[-- que Boricua.] [00:29:01], and we all hang at Humboldt Park, and we all protected each other. You know, if somebody come messing with you, they come and they protect you. That’s all it was at that time. JJ: So, you liked it because it was more Boricua, more Puerto Rican. PM: Correct, yeah. And it was, everybody was -- JJ: Is that why you went there, just to hang out with -- PM: Well, we’d go there and listen to music, get into the music, sing, you know, play congas and stuff like that. JJ: What did you mean, sing? PM: Well, sing, they make coro. Everybody makes a coro. (Spanish) [poner un cantar y --?] [00:29:31] JJ: And you were more into music? PM: (Spanish) [-- y’know, la canción --?] [00:29:33] JJ: Okay, improvising? PM: Improvise, yeah. (Spanish) [Todo eso. Como tirando y […], tú sabes. (laughs) -y ventando --?] [00:29:38] So, that was great. JJ: So, you did that on the weekends? PM: Yeah, the weekends, that was the paydays. By then, I had a job then. When I moved to that area, I had a job. JJ: Where were you working? PM: Geez, I had a (Spanish) [-- un trabajo aquí --?] [00:29:58], and I’d grab another one next door. [00:30:00] I’d walk from here, and I was working like in (Spanish) [00:30:03], like (inaudible) and stuff like that and making boxes. (inaudible) 25 �(Spanish) [00:30:07], pictures. Then I went to other places. Then I went next door. It was like a little rubber thing, making plastic spoons and bottles and stuff like that. They had a lot of jobs at that time. You couldn’t get a job here, you’d get another job next door. You know, it says, “Help wanted.” It was good. At that time, it was good, so every time payday, we would run. Either we’d go to Fullerton Beach, y’know -JJ: Fullerton? PM: Fullerton Beach, yeah. JJ: What was that like, Fullerton Beach? PM: Well, it’s the same thing. And the rocks, you know, and the rocks in that area? JJ: That’s by Lincoln Park by the rocks. Yeah. That became like a Puerto Rican (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) PM: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, at that time. JJ: That was the Puerto Rican beach, Fullerton Beach. PM: That was también, the same as Humboldt Park. I mean, they didn’t have all that selling and stuff they’re doing in that park. It was all music. You know, [00:31:00] they’re playing over here. Everybody’d come, and they’d join. They’d bring their own instrument and just enjoyed the music. JJ: What year was that? PM: That was in the late ’70s. JJ: In the late ’70s? So, Fullerton Beach was the Puerto Rican beach in the mid’70s. PM: Yes. 26 �JJ: Is that what you’re saying? I’m not putting words in your mouth. PM: No, that was our hangout for the beach. That was when we would go to the beach. JJ: From all over the city? PM: Yes. JJ: From Humboldt Park and -- PM: From Humboldt Park to there. JJ: And everybody went to that beach? PM: And to the neighborhood. JJ: Now, did the gangs fight each other at the beach, or was that neutral? PM: Then that was neutral. JJ: Then that’s kind of a neutral place? Nobody fought? PM: Yeah. The fighting was mainly like in the club at that time. I remember, as long as I can remember, you go to clubs, they have the Martini, we used to call. It used to be, [00:32:00] I don’t remember (inaudible). JJ: The Martini House? PM: Martini was one of them. You go, there was disco at that time. I don't know if you remember, Diana Ross and all that, those canciones de disco. JJ: So, you had a lot of disco clubs. PM: They had a lot of disco clubs. That’s where the gangs used to come in and do the shooting. That’s where the problem was. I mean, that’s where I saw it. I never saw the outside. Yeah, there was shooting, but not around my neighborhood. 27 �JJ: Were there a lot of disco clubs? PM: Oh, yeah, at that time, yeah, they had a lot of disco clubs. They have one at North Avenue, right on North Avenue and I think it was California, and a club, like a little hall upstairs, and they used to throw disco there too, but that was more relaxed because that was from around the neighborhood, (Spanish) [00:32:44], so it wasn’t as bad, and they couldn’t sneak in. Like in the clubs, they used to sneak in and shoot right in the club. And I went to a couple clubs, and they would shoot out right inside a club, so I mean, we had to get outta there, [00:33:00] y’know, collect all our buddies, say, “Hey, let’s get outta here.” (inaudible) Yeah, that wasn’t that bad. Mostly, when I was growing up in Chicago at that time, all the gangs were mainly like at Humboldt Park, the fighting. I’m talking about this was after the Humboldt Park went down. They closed the Humboldt Park. JJ: What do you mean? PM: They closed it. Remember, they closed Humboldt Park so the people don’t go in there, play congas? I don't know if you remember that time. You were probably in Chicago when that -- JJ: I’m not sure. PM: They closed it. They put like a barrier or something so the cars wouldn’t go in, nobody go in. JJ: You mean by the boat house? PM: By the boat house. JJ: So, they closed the boat house? 28 �PM: They sealed it down, and they didn’t want nobody going there. And then that’s when they stopped, and then that’s when they started all the gangbanging. JJ: So, there wasn’t gangbanging before that? PM: When that was happening, yeah. Before that, I didn’t know nothing about it. [00:34:00] We would hear one or two things, but that was if somebody came into the park, and then for protection, then they would have -- JJ: So, why did they close it down? PM: Well, probably because the selling of the drugs, prostitution, heroin. JJ: There was no gangs? PM: I mean, there were gangs, but they weren’t -- JJ: I mean the gang fighting came later, you said. PM: Yeah, more. It escalated. JJ: It escalated maybe because they closed it down? PM: I mean, I don't know if it was because they closed it down. JJ: Was that when they made the beach? Were you there when they made the beach or no? PM: No, I was in Grand Rapids after that. JJ: So, the beach was already there. PM: The beach was there, but they used to call it Mojóne Beach. JJ: Mojóne? PM: (laughs) Yeah. JJ: Mojóne means? PM: Mojóne, you know, the poop, the turd, yeah. 29 �JJ: Like a turd beach? PM: Yeah, the Turd Beach. JJ: As in feces, turd as in feces? PM: Correct, because it was never clean. And then they’d keep it clean, or it looked dirty. You know how the Latinos are. [00:35:00] They put names on everything. JJ: So, that was when the city was doing that, trying to fix an area like for a beach for the Puerto Ricans, but the Puerto Ricans didn’t take care of it, or --? PM: Well, as long as I remember, they still take -- a lot of people go in there. That beach was never fixed. It was just, maybe it was too small for too many people. That’s what I saw. I never went in there. JJ: You went where? Where did you go? PM: I went to the Fullerton Beach. JJ: How come you didn’t go to North Avenue? PM: Well, we walked. Yeah, we’d walk all the way from Fullerton. You can walk all the way to North Avenue because that was the thing. Everybody walks back and forth. JJ: Did you go to Oak Street Beach too? PM: No. I never went there. JJ: Nobody went to the Oak Street? PM: No, at that time, that wasn’t the hangout. You know, we’d follow the rules. Where the people was, y’know, [00:36:00] that’s where we follow. JJ: Okay. I know Montrose was also one of the beaches. 30 �PM: Montrose, correct. I think we went there a couple times, but the one on Fullerton, there were all the Latinos. JJ: What did they do? PM: The Latinos, I guess you’d feel more comfortable. You’d feel like you’re on your own island. You feel more comfortable with the Latinos, at that time. You can go to Chicago right now, and I don’t think you’d see that many Puerto Ricans over there. I went one time, and it’s mainly all Whites. JJ: Fullerton? PM: Correct. JJ: So, there’s no more Latinos? PM: There’s some but not like it used to be, and then there’s cops all over. JJ: At that time, they didn’t have cops? PM: At that time, no, they didn’t have that many cops. There were cops, but, you know, they’d just look and see if everything was cool and kept walking. JJ: And usually, there was no problems? PM: And there was no problems. [00:37:00] JJ: Okay, but now they have a lot of cops and no Latinos? PM: Correct. JJ: So, how do you feel about that, that your beach is not there? PM: Well, I think it’s a big change. In Chicago, everything changes. They move people out and bring others in, and Chicago has always been like that. JJ: Okay. What do you mean? What do you mean, they move people out? 31 �PM: They raise the taxes so the poor leave, and then the rich people move in, and so they’re forced to leave and find another spot. They take your neighborhood from you, and then they force you out. JJ: What do you mean, they take your neighborhood? PM: Well, they’re taking it. I mean, they’re taking it legally. I’m not saying they’re just taking it. Legally, they take it. But [00:38:00] I think Chicago’s always been like that. I mean, that happens here in Grand Rapids too. It’s happening right now. JJ: What’s happening? PM: In Chicago, they’re moving. They’re fixing. They’re growing downtown. It’s coming to the ghetto, so they’re kinda, I mean, in a good way, yeah, they’re fixing, but that’s for now. You don’t see it as bad in Chicago. Chicago, you see it, everything. I mean, I remember I used to hang around Division. Now on Division, you don’t see people playing dominoes in the streets like they used to and hear the music. Now it’s different. JJ: (inaudible) did it improve, or it got worse or better, or what do you mean? PM: In a way, it’s improved, but then they make things, things are expensive, so the people don’t have the money to hang around there. And so, I [00:39:00] mean, it’s good in a way and bad in another way. JJ: Tell me why it’s good, and tell me why it’s bad. PM: It’s bad because la gente can’t afford to be around there, they can’t be around there. It’s not like it used to be. It was more liberal. People sit down, talk to others and stuff like that, and you can’t do that anymore. You can’t just sit there. They’re gonna tell you you have to move. You have to buy something, which, 32 �you know, that’s how restaurants are anyways, but that’s what it is. I don't know much. JJ: That’s the bad part. What’s the good part? PM: The good part? It looks good. The neighborhood looks good, but it looks good but not with our people. JJ: What do you mean? PM: (laughs) JJ: I asked you to tell me what’s good. I didn’t tell you to say [what’s bad?] -- PM: It looks good. The neighborhood looks good, but not with our people. JJ: What do you mean, [00:40:00] not with our people? We’re not there? PM: Boricuas, it’s a Boricua neighborhood, y’know. JJ: But the Boricuas, the Puerto Ricans that moved to -- they’re living in the suburbs. PM: They’re somewhere in the suburbs. JJ: They’re better. PM: You think? JJ: I don't know. I’m asking you. PM: (laughs) You tell me. JJ: We live in the suburbs, right? So, we moved up. PM: Ah -JJ: What do you think? PM: Not everybody wants to live in the suburbs, don’t you think? That’s like moving them out, getting them out of town, you know. I wouldn’t want to live in the suburbs. 33 �JJ: Do they live in better houses in the suburbs or what? PM: I have no idea, they probably do. I love the ghetto, man. I’m a ghetto man, you know, (laughs) 100 percent. JJ: You love the ghetto? PM: Ghetto, you know the ghetto. JJ: You love to be by your people. PM: I like to be by my people. Yeah, that’s what I like. I don’t care. I know for some people, it’s bad. You have to think big and positive, but it’s, [00:41:00] I guess, I just like to be by my people. I don't know. It’s a good thing for me. JJ: So, when did you leave Chicago then? PM: Oh, I left Chicago -- wow, let me see. JJ: I mean, it looks like you didn’t like the job market. Otherwise, you would’ve stayed there. PM: No, well, you know, it’s those things. JJ: Why did you decide to come back here to Grand Rapids? PM: Well, you get older, and you get to that time that you gotta change. You know what I mean? So, I came here. This was a nice -- Grand Rapids is a good place to raise a kid, have a good job. They had jobs here like crazy when I came here. JJ: But I thought you said you liked it, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) around your people. PM: Yeah, well, they have Puerto Ricans in Grand Rapids too. JJ: So, you figured, come over here? 34 �PM: And I have more family here. I’m very close to my family, [00:42:00] so, I mean, I had all my family here. JJ: When you say all your family, who of your family? PM: Well, family, I have a bunch. I got the Fernández. I got the Hernandez. I got the Perez, the Mateos. JJ: They were all here? PM: And then they’re all mixed with all other Latinos. If I mention ‘em, man, I’ll be here all day. JJ: So, you have a very big family in Grand Rapids. PM: Yes, bigger than Chicago. JJ: Who are some of your uncles and aunts that are here, or cousins? PM: Wow, there’s too many. I can’t even go through all that deatil. There’s so many. I really don’t like mentioning their names. Let’s skip that. JJ: But are they involved in the community or no, some of them? PM: Yeah. There were some. I mean, we had Yolanda. JJ: Yolanda Wilson? PM: Yes. JJ: She was the director of the ex-offender [00:43:00] program? PM: Yes. She went through a couple programs, helping the Latino and the immigrants. And then we have her daughter that she’s following her steps. JJ: Who’s her daughter? PM: Man, you just put me under the -- JJ: Yolanda Wilson’s daughter is working also in the community? 35 �PM: Yes. JJ: Now, don’t you have some cousins or somebody that are teachers or something? PM: Yeah, I got a couple. I got a cousin that’s a teacher also. JJ: But I mean like principal, right, or something like that, a principal? PM: Yeah, she’s a principal over here on Franklin. JJ: Okay, so they’re kind of active. You had the Fernández Bar. PM: They had the Fernández Bar, which that bar ran for years over in Grand Rapids. So, I mean, I came here, I liked it here, I got a job. JJ: So, your family is very much in the community. PM: Yeah. I came here. [00:44:00] I settled down. I got here. What I never did in Chicago, I did it here, and I made a bad decision. I got into heroin, and then that was something, to be hooked on heroin for close to 10 years. JJ: Here in Grand Rapids? PM: Here in Grand Rapids. JJ: So, you didn’t do that in Chicago, but you started -- PM: I never did that in Chicago. JJ: But you saw it. PM: I saw it, and I lived around it, and they would do it in front of me and everything, but it never went through my mind. Just, I would get high on weed and stuff like that and once in a while drop a pill, but when I came here, then my life went downhill. JJ: So, what happened then? Were you just curious, or were you depressed, or were you going through problems? 36 �PM: Probably, yeah, going through problems with my ex and stuff like that, so going through that stage kinda brought me into that, you know. And I tried it, and I tried [00:45:00] stopping. JJ: You found you liked it? PM: Well, you know, (laughs) that’s the bad part, when you try and you like it. So, going through all that, I mean, yeah, I liked it, and it was a great high (inaudible). Plus, it was a cheap high too. JJ: It was a cheap high at that time? PM: But I’ll tell you what, really, I didn’t just try it and go and buy it. I got into selling, y’know. I was selling. I would sell weed. I would make my business like, make some money like that. I would work and sell some weed, and I would sell some heroin. JJ: So, not only did you like it, but you were also making money, so you’re making money too. PM: Correct. JJ: It was giving you a positive -- like a positive reinforcer, would you say? PM: Kinda. To me, it wasn’t costing me anything, and I liked it, so, you know, I kept doing it. JJ: Did you get any problems later or no? PM: Well, you know, yeah, I got addicted to it. [00:46:00] JJ: And then what happened there? PM: So, that’s an addiction and that. JJ: Did that affect your family at all? 37 �PM: Oh, yeah, it affected my family. I got divorced, and then one day, I said, “Hey, you know, I gotta stop.” I decided I have to leave this alone. JJ: Did you ever go to jail for it or no? PM: Not for it. Well, I got caught with, not with any dope on me, you know, marijuana [is still?] dope, [I would cap it?], that was like 75-dollars, 50-dollars fine for a little bag or whatever. I’d go pay it and get out. JJ: So, your problem wasn’t the jail. It was more the family issues, like you got divorced? PM: Kinda, yeah, then. So, that brought me into the drug, and then after that, one day they were looking for me. I don't know. I think I owed some money. They put me in jail. I mean, I had the money in my pocket, and I said, “This is the time for me to quit.” They just said, “Well, [00:47:00] I got you here. You got three months, or you pay 300 dollars.” And then in my mind, I said, “You know what? This is my time to quit.” Boom, I said, “Gimme the three months.” And I had the money, and I went in there, and once they put me in jail, I started doing my three months, and that’s where I started kicking. Lucky I had one of my cousin’s cousins. They were working in a jail as a guard, and he was helping me with aspirins here and there to kinda calm down the chilling and stuff like that, but I went through hell in there. And I went through it and got over it, and I came out. Then, I came out; I started going to church. I did a cursillo, matter of fact. JJ: You went to what church? PM: I went to St. Joseph’s. JJ: St. Joseph’s, a Catholic church? 38 �PM: Catholic church. JJ: You did a cursillo? PM: I did a cursillo, [00:48:00] and after the cursillo, I was in church for a while, for years, for maybe 15 years. JJ: What is a cursillo? What is that? PM: Cursillo is a Christian organization. I think it’s through every church. It’s a spiritual… (Spanish) [¿Cómo la dirías eso --?] [00:48:19]. JJ: Like a retreat? PM: A spiritual retreat, yeah. JJ: So, you went like for a week or a weekend? PM: It’s a weekend. JJ: Okay. And what do you do there? PM: Well, that’s something you can’t talk about it because that’s -- JJ: Just prayers and stuff? PM: There’s prayers, a lot of prayers. You study a lot. It’s a bunch of things that they teach you, go through, and at the end, you come out clean. JJ: Now, did you ever relapse again on the heroin? PM: After that-- not on heroin, no. After that, I never relapsed, but I did turn alcoholic. [00:49:00] JJ: After that? PM: Yeah. I started drinking a lot. JJ: 'Cause sometimes people, they stop the heroin and go to the alcohol. PM: I changed the heroin to alcohol, and I didn’t think it was a problem. 39 �JJ: But you improved, so that was good. PM: You call that improvement? (laughs) JJ: Well, yeah, I mean, it’s better than -- alcohol, you know, I don't know which is worse, but still, it wasn’t heroin. PM: Well, there was times where I would wake up in my car all drunk and stuff like that. JJ: So, you went pretty bad into the alcohol. PM: Yeah, I didn’t think I had a problem, but I did. And then I realized that, and then that’s when I joined Project Rehab. That’s where I met you. I met Jose, Jose “Cha Cha” Jimenez. JJ: I had a bottle too? PM: You had a bottle to hit people in the head with. (laughter) JJ: What was I doing there then? [00:50:00] PM: You was a counselor. You was my counselor. Yeah, then you would help us out. I went in there and did what I had to do. I mean, I wasn’t happy, you know. (laughs) JJ: You didn’t like your counselor? PM: No, it wasn’t the counselor. The thing is, you know, I mean, you go over there voluntary, they say, “Well, you got 30 days,” and then you say, “Wow, I got three more days.” You go, “Three more.” (laughs) JJ: You’re doing time. PM: Yeah, like doing time, “You got three more days to go --” 40 �JJ: [I gotta tell you?] “You can’t go because you’re doing time… You’re not getting into the program.” PM: Yeah. (laughter) JJ: “This guy’s just doing time.” PM: No, but I was getting into it. You know, I mean, I was feeling good. At first, it was kinda hard. JJ: What did you learn in there? Because, you know, it’s not really the concept of change, as you change yourself. PM: Yes. You have to want to. I mean, if you don’t want to, it’s not gonna happen. And I mean, [00:51:00] everybody, you just could see people, just looking at the people and see the behavior already changing, what’s going on and all this, I mean, that made you want to think you don’t want to go back to this. I don’t want to be there again. And that’s every time something like that, I think about it. I said, “No, this ain’t for me,” and thank God, I’ve been doing pretty good. But it was hell in there. (laughs) JJ: What do you mean? PM: Well, it’s got the rules, you know. Especially when you’re an alcoholic, you don’t like nobody telling you what to do and the meetings, and everything is a meeting. You gotta listen. You have to listen to these people, and the same thing over and over and over. In a way, it sticks to you, you know? (laughs) You come outta there, and you’re having like nightmares. JJ: “Oh, not again.” 41 �PM: “Not again. (laughter) This guy, the same thing.” There you go. But yeah, it was pretty good. [00:52:00] But some of the counselors, I mean, I think it’s just me. I just couldn’t deal with a lot of ‘em. JJ: What year was that? PM: In the ’80s. JJ: The ’80s? PM: Yeah. JJ: Okay, so this is (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). PM: What, ’89, wasn’t it? You was there. JJ: Yeah, ’89, ’90. PM: Or ’98? JJ: No, I think I left there around ’95 or something like that, ’96. PM: You left, so it was before that. JJ: Yeah, it was before then. PM: So, yeah, then I came out of there. Then I changed my life. JJ: So, today, you only chipped a few things? PM: I chip what? JJ: You chipped a few things? PM: No, no. (laughter) JJ: Just a couple. PM: Just a few. (laughter) JJ: Oh, just a few. (laughter) But so far, I mean, you’re -- 42 �PM: No, I’m doing good. I’m doing good. I mean, I bought some houses. Once I [00:53:00] got outta there, I got me a job. JJ: You bought some houses? PM: I bought houses. JJ: Where did you learn? You did some (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). PM: I did it on my own. I did some research. Well, thanks to you, you helped me out. We worked together on the support group. We worked together. JJ: After you came out, you were helping me with the Latino Support Group? PM: Latino Support Group. JJ: And what was that? What was the Latino Support Group? PM: That was combined with alcohol. It was more with everything, you know. JJ: Drugs? PM: Emotion and everything, a group combined with drugs. JJ: (inaudible) your culture and all that? PM: Yeah. JJ: It was like a twelve-step program? PM: Yes. JJ: It was for the people when they came out, we’d set that set that up for the graduates, but they didn’t have any support [on the --?] PM: Correct. JJ: So, we set that up. You helped me with it. PM: Yeah, it was you, me. We had a couple people. JJ: Carlos. 43 �PM: You, Carlos, and I were the first ones that started it, [00:54:00] and then we started bringing people in. And it went pretty good. It was a big group. We had a big group. JJ: Actually, it split up into other group. It’s still going. PM: It’s still going, but it split it up. They changed the name, but it’s still there. JJ: Because before, they didn’t have anything in Spanish. PM: Correct. So, we did that, and then we did the Lincoln Park Camp. JJ: Yeah, the Lincoln Park Camp was to talk about the history of the Young Lords and all that and to get people from here to go to a camp. PM: Correct. And then we were working at the Lincoln Park. It was part of the group we had with the church. JJ: The KO Club. PM: The KO Club. JJ: What was the KO Club for? PM: That was to keep kids out of street. JJ: Out of the gangs? PM: Out of the gangs. JJ: So, you helped with that also? PM: We helped with that. I worked a lot of years with that, and then we looked for funds to make funds for the club. So, that went on for a while also, until the funds ran out, I guess. JJ: Yeah, they ran out [00:55:00] in three years. PM: Correct. 44 �JJ: But it’s still going. That’s still going but with a different name. PM: Yeah, that’s still going with a different name, correct. But we got that started too, and the Lincoln Park Camp. It’s still going. JJ: And the Lincoln Park Camp is still going because we’re documenting the history right now. PM: Correct. JJ: I mean, they were trying to document the history right now, so that’s what it was for, right? PM: Yeah. Oh, and then we had the little Young Lord group that we started here. That was a five-person group that we have. JJ: And that group is the one that started that -- PM: That started all the other programs. I was involved, you, Carlos, and some other, two more guys. JJ: Those were the main people, but there were other people involved? PM: They were the main people, correct. JJ: Because the people in the KO Club and all that were involved in all that different. PM: No, they weren’t. They were just with the KO Club. So, [00:56:00] that’s how I met you, and that’s my life. JJ: So, you became like a businessperson. PM: With the houses. JJ: With the houses. PM: Correct. JJ: And so, what did you do with the houses? 45 �PM: I rent ‘em. I rent. I live in one. JJ: You rent ‘em out to people? PM: I rent out to people. I’ve been successful because at that time, I could’ve had more than two houses. And like this house here, I bought for 4,000 dollars, and between Carlos and I, we got in here, and we fixed it. We tore the whole thing. We put new patterning, new floor, new everything. Then once I got fixing, then I borrowed money out. Then I borrowed money on this, fixed some more, and then I bought another house. And then the other house, that’s the [00:57:00] moneymaking house. I got a duplex, so that brings a lot of money, and I’m almost done paying that. I wish I could do more, but that’s good enough for me. JJ: So, you’re not just fixing them to sell ‘em. You’re fixing them to rent them. PM: I fix to rent, yeah, so I can have some retire money when I -- that’s my main goal, the retire money. I wanna see some money when I get old, you know. JJ: And so, that’s one of your business. PM: So I can go to China, you know, Japan. (laughs) I wish I could. JJ: Okay, well, that’s good. PM: Everybody has dreams. You know how that is. JJ: That’s a good inspiration (inaudible) [businesspeople?], but you still are involved with the community and stuff like that too? PM: Sure, I still get involved with the community. I’m more watching on the neighborhood, you know, and stuff like that, around the neighborhood, keep it [00:58:00] clean. And pretty far, it’s been successful around this neighborhood. I mean, still it’s gotten worse, and we have a lot of gangs here now, this area here. 46 �But this area here, since I was a little kid, 'cause I was born in this area, and it’s always been bad. But there’s still shooting. There’s gangs that come out. JJ: And when you say, “this area,” this is the -- PM: This is the Grandville area, Grandville Avenue area in Grand Rapids. JJ: Is that where the Puerto Ricans live? PM: This is where the Hispanic people live. You can’t say Puerto Rican here 'cause it’s Hispanic because it’s not all Puerto Rican. JJ: Who lives here, then? PM: This is mixed. This is Puerto Ricans, Black, White, Mexican, Tejanos, all kind. JJ: But I mean, it’s big? You said it’s all kind, but it’s also the center where the Latinos were, the Hispanics. [00:59:00] PM: Well, now it’s changed. This is more mixed now. The center of the Latinos is on Burton, the Burton area. That’s where all -- JJ: Burton and where? PM: Burton from -- let me see. I will say like from Hall School to 28th Street, on Division all through there. All those houses are all mostly Latinos and Blacks. They’re also mixed because Grand Rapids is all mixed. The system, you know, this is not like Chicago. They got one neighborhood that’s all Puerto Rican, one that’s -- JJ: It’s how it’s been. PM: It’s never been like that, yeah. And then like gangs here, gangs are mixed too. It’s not all Puerto Rican gangs. This is all people that know -- JJ: Is there a gang problem? 47 �PM: There used to be. [01:00:00] I mean, they’re shooting people, but I don't know. You don’t get a lot of information on what’s going on. You know, you hear it, but the cops won’t say much on the paper. But I think, to me, it’s more like drug related or maybe some gang too 'cause most of the gangs are doing the drugs. They’re the ones that’s selling the drugs, so… but I don’t wanna get into that 'cause, you know. JJ: Well, is the neighborhood calm, or is it changing? PM: The neighborhood’s changing. The people, it’s changing. It’s better than Burton. I mean, Burton, they do a lot of shooting. There’s gangs all over. Most of the gangs are on Burton. JJ: So, this is more stable? PM: This is more stable here on this side of town. JJ: But it’s also changing though. Isn’t downtown -- PM: Yeah, downtown kinda moving in. JJ: So, the urban renewal is coming in. But you say that’s good for the money. PM: Well, it’s good in a way, you know, I mean, if [01:01:00] you wanna sell out. (laughs) JJ: Is that what you say (inaudible)? PM: (laughs) No, I [didn’t?] say that. JJ: I’m just joking with you. (laughs) PM: Nope, I say, “You know what? Gimme the house, and we’ll pay for it, and just get out. You know, here’s a couple whatever just to get out.” 48 �JJ: But it’s pretty stable because the people that are living here have kinda been here for a while, right? The renters that you have. PM: The renters, yeah, they’ve been there. I mean, I don’t charge much rent. A lot of people like that, and I got good tenants, so I’m happy. If I can get ‘em to cut the grass and stuff like that, (laughs) that would be great. JJ: That’s part of the agreement? PM: No. (laughs) But pretty much, that’s pretty much it. That’s what we got. JJ: Okay, [01:02:00] any final thoughts? PM: I covered it all. That’s it. END OF VIDEO FILE 49 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/f6666aa05ad86c85c6a3fefe18aefc6b.mp4 2fb9f09f6628b16ac3ec8cd92639c52c Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Patrick Mateo vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Mateo_Patrick Title A name given to the resource Patrick Mateo video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mateo, Patrick Description An account of the resource Patrick Mateo is a Young Lord who was born in the United States but lived many years in Puerto Rico. His family is from Salinas. But he and his siblings grew up in Chicago starting at Van Buren, the old La Madison barrio, and in Grand Rapids, Michigan. He is currently living in Puerto Rico. Mr. Mateo fixes his own cars and studied carpentry and building maintenance. He can build you a house from scratch. His mother lived in a convent for some time and attends church regularly at St. Joseph’s in Grand Rapids. Mr. Mateo, who also dabbles in music, has played and sung for the church choir. He is a community organizer. Mr. Mateo has also worked on several Young Lords projects including the Latino Support Group that became the first bilingual, bicultural support group in Grand Rapids. The Latino Support Group was a volunteer program that received referrals from the courts and probation departments to assist Latinos with substance abuse issues. Mr. Mateo also helped to organize the KO CLUB, an afterschool neighborhood program to prevent youth from becoming involved with gang violence. And he also helped to organize several Lincoln Park Camps in Michigan, to educate people about the Young Lords and to recruit volunteers who would assist in documenting their history. Each of the camps were self-supported by a donated fee, provided a weekend get-away, and proved positive and memorable events. Mr. Mateo has a large family that looks to him as its leader. The Fernández side is also large and well established in Grand Rapids. They include church pastors, school principals, and businesspersons. He describes rough times and perseverance. And he remains a role model and pacesetter for others in his community. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-22 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/7dc66b3d01c731e2698ac2cc3a7252a2.pdf b24353e2d50a0345b9f50159b1d6e787 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Charlyne Martínez-Villegas Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 6/5/2012 Biography and Description Charlyne Martínez-Villegas came to Grand Rapids, Michigan from New Jersey where she loved it because there were many Puerto Ricans. In Grand Rapids she was only one of a few. Another reason that she loved New Jersey is that that is where her mother and father were still married. She explains that as soon as their family arrived in Grand Rapids, her parents divorced. Her mother worked hard trying to make ends meet, preparing homemade pasteles that people would order from her ahead of time and then she would have to have them ready at all hours of the day or week. Eventually her mother’s homemade business led to opening up a small restaurant on Grandville Avenue which is always filled with patrons. In Grand Rapids, Ms. Martínez-Villegas began to get in trouble at school and in the neighborhood on the southeast side of the city, by Garfield Park. She missed her friends back in New Jersey and in school “she just did not fit in…the kids were mostly white, or black.” She explains that she could relate a little better with black children because they shared a lot of things in common. She also missed her father. The Young Lords were passing out flyers door-to-door. But they did not use the name “Young Lords” publicly. Instead they called themselves the “KO CLUB.” And they had a way with words. She explains that they had to read some pledges and phrases and everything began with KO: “Keep Open Your Hearts” or “Keep Standing Up for Yourself” or “Keep Open Your Mind.” Their meetings were held in a United Methodist Church, and the heads of the KO Club were Pastor Marge Berman, who �was of Mexican descent, and Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. Members of the Club were also shown several videos about the Young Lords.The young people who participated in the Club and the small congregation were supportive. But there were a few within the church who did not like the Young Lords, who had taken over Methodist Churches in New York and Chicago. Those same individuals also did not like Pastor Berman, who was new and wanted more interaction with the community. Pastor Berman had read a newspaper article about the Young Lords while Mr. Jiménez was working as a substance abuse counselor for Project Rehab. She contacted him by phone. And when they met for the first time, Pastor Berman told him that he was sent by God. To which Mr. Jiménez replied, “Did God send any money? Because I have bills.” Mr. Jiménez did want to organize and help youth, but he wanted to do so around issues related to the Young Lords. Pastor Berman just wanted to save souls. It was a good understanding, but Mr. Jiménez would have to work incognito because using the name Young Lords name would be like saying the word “gang” in Grand Rapids. The KO Club worked well because it was not an after school program. It was an “in the neighborhood program.” It was focused on youth like Ms. Martínez-Villegas who did not want anything to do with school. And while others were saying to all youth who got in trouble, “Lock them up and throw away the key.” the KO Club had their own public slogan: “Support Youth For A Change.” Parents had to get involved, because the KO Club would visit them in their home and let them know that they were not babysitters. Once a month parents would attend amateur night where the KO CLUB members would perform for them and the rest of the community. Organizing was constantly being done door-to-door. KO CLUB was like a good gang and everyone was a member. Their colors were black and purple, but their symbol was a heart with KO in the middle and a cross above the heart. Once a year there was an annual dinner with the community where many members of the United Methodist Church attended including the Bishop. It was cost effective as it was run more like support groups divided by age: pee wee, juniors, and seniors. They would all have a chance to express themselves in a variety of ways, including discussion, with music, or in sports. The only problem came from the adults. Some wanted to make it more ecumenical to include the community at large and others wanted the organization to be more faith-based. Still others wanted control. And Pastor Berman was moved to a church in Los Angeles, California. Mr. Jiménez was left alone, fighting church elders who were paranoid that Mr. Jiménez might want to speak for the church. Mr. Jiménez understood their fears and resigned in an amicable way. The youth program continues today and it is being run more privately within the church. Ms. Martínez-Villegas says that it is what she needed then with the loss of her father, and that participating in the KO Club turned her life around. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: If you can give me your name, your date of birth, and where you were born. CHARLYNE VILLEGAS-MARTINEZ: Charlyne Martínez-Villegas, 7/23/87 in Caguas, Puerto Rico. JJ: Seven -- 7/23/87 in Caguas, Puerto Rico. CMV: Yes. JJ: Oh, that’s pretty good. You know, I’m from Caguas, too. CMV: Oh, (Spanish) [00:00:19 - 00:00:22] probably if you were born in the same one, it doesn’t exist anymore. JJ: So you were born in the city? CMV: I really don’t know because after being three months old, Mom moved us to New Jersey. JJ: But you said Villegas. You said -- CMV: Mm-hmm, yeah. JJ: Okay. And so what year did you come? You said after three years old, you moved to -- CMV: No, three months. JJ: Oh, three months. CMV: So in ’87, we moved to Newark. JJ: To Newark, New Jersey? CMV: Mm-hmm. 1 �JJ: And what do you remember of Newark? I mean, what -- how long were you -how long were you there? CMV: It was craziness. I was [00:01:00] there till I was like six years old, six or seven years old. JJ: Oh, okay. You said it was freezing? CMV: No, it was crazy. JJ: Oh, really? CMV: It was crazy. Of course, you’re not going to remember that much when you was a little kid. But where we would live or whatnot, we lived on Mount Prospect in Newark, we lived in South Orange and stuff. And it was fun because we had the family around and everything. But at the same time, it’s like after a certain time, we couldn’t go out of the house. JJ: Okay, so you had the family around but there were a lot more fam- -- there were a lot more family living there in that area? CMV: Mm-hmm. JJ: In that area? CMV: Yeah. JJ: And was it a Puerto Rican neighborhood or...? CMV: Yeah, it was. On Mount Prospect, I remember -- oh my goodness. It was always a whole bunch of Puerto Ricans. Like in the apartments that we lived at, almost [00:02:00] every single window had a Puerto Rican flag. So it’s -- the whole neighborhood was full of Puerto Ricans. I think now, if I pass by Mount Prospect, there, you hardly see the flags hanging up on the windows or anything like that. 2 �It’s more of a multicultural neighborhood now, but the Puerto Ricans that were there before aren’t there now. JJ: And what happened to them? CMV: To be honest with you, I’m not really sure what exactly happened to them. But as far as I’m concerned, either they moved to different parts of Newark or they moved to a different neighborhood or something like that. JJ: Okay. Did they move to like the suburbs or something or maybe they improved or no? CMV: They probably did improve because a lot of them were starting off on their own businesses and stuff so they probably moved [00:03:00] to the suburbs to better neighborhoods than to just living at a -- at that specific area. Got their own houses and stuff like that. JJ: Was that area downtown or near the lake or near the ocean or...? CMV: No, nothing like that. It was actually close to 2nd Ave so to get to downtown, it was probably like 10 minutes or so. JJ: Okay, so it was 10 minutes to downtown? CMV: Yeah, it was like 10 minutes to downtown depending in the traffic. JJ: So then, the rents must’ve went up or something like that, no? CMV: Probably. I was too little to even know how much Mami and Papi were even paying on their rent. JJ: Okay. Okay, so you lived there till you said you were like six years old? CMV: Mm-hmm. JJ: So about five years or something like that? 3 �CMV: Yeah, like around five, six years, something like that, yeah. JJ: Five or six years. Okay, and then [00:04:00] what’s your brothers’ and sisters’ names? I mean, did you -- CMV: I’m the youngest of three so my brother’s the oldest. His name is [Brian?] Martínez, and then my sister, she’s the middle child and her name is [Jocelyn Martínez Espindola?]. She got married. JJ: What’s the last name? CMV: Espindola. JJ: Espindola. Okay. Okay, and then so you came -- how did you get here to Grand Rapids? CMV: Car. JJ: You just drove in the car? CMV: Yeah, we just drove in the car. JJ: You didn’t take the train (inaudible)? CMV: No, no trains, no airplanes, nothing. JJ: All right. Did you know people here or...? CMV: My mom, the reason that she moved over here is because of her sister. She’s the one who moved my mom over here and told her that Grand Rapids was more of a better place to raise your child, to start a family, the rent’s better and all that stuff so that’s why my mom moved over here. JJ: So the rent’s better? What do you mean, the rent over there was too high or something? 4 �CMV: Most likely, [00:05:00] that’s what my mom tells me is that the rent was too expensive. And when she came over here, she was surprised at the rent, how cheap it was. JJ: And were the houses bigger here or...? CMV: Yeah. JJ: So the houses were bigger and the rent was cheaper here. CMV: Exactly. JJ: So that -- okay. So what other reason did she move besides that? Or was that the main reason? CMV: That was one of the main reasons. The other reason -- the main reason would be that the houses were bigger, more space for your money. And then also, it was quiet, it was tranquil. It wasn’t -JJ: It had less crime? CMV: Exactly. The crime was not as high. JJ: There was a lot of crime there. CMV: Too much. JJ: In the Puerto Rican neighborhood, there was a lot of crime. CMV: Yeah. Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. Drugs or gangs? CMV: Drugs, gangs, fights, killings. You name it, it was there. JJ: Okay. [00:06:00] And so you came to Grand Rapids around what year? Do you remember or...? 5 �CMV: We came to Grand Rapids probably like around ’94, ’95, somewhere around there. JJ: And where did you move to? CMV: When we moved over here, we started living at my aunt’s house, Aunt Eola, and what street is that? JJ: How do you spell the name of...? CMV: (inaudible) E-O-L-A. JJ: Oh, Eo-- Eola lived over there on -- CMV: Yeah, over there on -- off of 28th Street and, oh my goodness, I want to say Madison? JJ: Okay, Madison? CMV: Yeah. I think it was Madison and on 28th Street right behind the BP gas station that’s there. JJ: Okay, I think I understand. I think I know where it’s at. It’s only like one block behind half a block, half a block from 28th Street there. CMV: Yeah, yeah. JJ: Okay. So okay, and your sister lived there? You say your aunt (inaudible)? CMV: My mom’s sister, yeah. She lived there with her [00:07:00] husband and her three kids. And so -JJ: So you moved in the same house with them? CMV: Yeah, we moved into the same house. They had the upstairs and we had the basement. JJ: Okay, they had the house, they handled the house. It was their house or...? 6 �CMV: It was their house. We used to have so much fun when we were growing up in there. We used to have barbeques almost every single weekend, we would -they would be in the garage roasting the pig, a la Varita like all Puerto Ricans do. It was fun. Those were the good old days. JJ: Those were the good old days up there? Okay, so you say you used to roast a pig? Not in the house. You didn’t kill the pig in the house, did you? CMV: I think they did. JJ: (laughs) They did. CMV: Yeah, they -- yeah, I’m telling you. When it comes to my -- back in the day, my dad getting together with my aunt’s husband, it was -- I’m telling you. [00:08:00] They could -- they would go into the garage, they would kill the rabbits so they could be able to do the stew later on. I never ate that; That’s disgusting to me. (laughs) They would roast the pork completely, they would make their own little fire pit and they would roast the pork out in the backyard. So it was fun; We had a lot of fun. JJ: Why wouldn’t they just go buy it at the store? I mean... CMV: Because that’s not the Puerto Rican tradition. It’s not the Puerto Rican tradition. Yeah, now, a lot of them, they just go to the store and get whatever part of the pork they like. But I was always told that the Puerto Rican tradition, if they want to have something traditional like they do it down at the island is get the pork, kill it yourself, do morcillas with the pig intestines and stuff, and roast the pig. JJ: So morcilla -- okay, all right. So they did morcilla, okay. Morcilla is like blood sausage or...? 7 �CMV: Yeah, blood sausage. They’re good, too. JJ: [00:09:00] Okay. Okay, so you’re living there at Eola and 28th and then you move out or -- from there? CMV: Yeah. After that, we moved to, oh my goodness, we moved to Union and Elliott off of Burton. And we lived there from like ’96 and on. JJ: Now, I didn’t get your father and mother’s names. What are their names? CMV: My dad’s name José Martínez is and my mom’s name is Glenda Villegas. JJ: Glenda -- CMV: Villegas. JJ: Villegas. Okay. And then what kind of work did they do? CMV: My dad was a mechanic and my mom at that time when we first moved over here to Grand Rapids was a stay-at-home mom for the time being, yeah. JJ: (inaudible) Okay. Now, didn’t she used to do some things? Did she sell bread, some pasteles or something for a while, right? CMV: She started selling the pasteles after [00:10:00] 2000. Before that, once she did get a job, she started working for the central kitchen for D&W. And then the one that would actually do the selling of something out of the house was her sister. She would sell cakes out of her own home and that’s how she started her business. And my mom would just do the pasteles and whatever on the side whenever she had time. JJ: And that would get her like just to supplement her income, too, I bet. 8 �CMV: Yeah. Something, just like a little -- like if she needed -- like if we needed something or she knew that there were, her and my dad, they knew that they were going to be short for the month, she would do the little bit extra. JJ: Okay. Now, was that pretty good business or...? CMV: It really was, yeah. JJ: It was? CMV: Yeah. JJ: I mean, it did pay [00:11:00] the bills or pay...? CMV: Yeah. It always paid the bills, it always put food on the table, gave us what we needed and stuff. I’m not going to say that it was a fancy life or anything like that but it did what it had to do every single month. (break in audio) JJ: Okay, okay. So you came from New Jersey over here and you were talking about the pasteles and that. But I mean, there was like a change, I mean, right? CMV: A huge change. JJ: A huge change? CMV: It was a huge change. The way that the neighborhood was and still is in Jersey is the houses are right next to each other, there’s a bunch of buildings, it’s always loud and everything. And then coming over here was so not that. There was actual yards, there was spaces between [00:12:00] the houses and even the apartments and stuff. And it wasn’t loud, it was quiet. It was something that, seriously, we needed to get used to. JJ: Okay. So were you going -- where were you going to school at? 9 �CMV: When we moved over here, I started going to -- well, we actually ended up going to three different elementary schools. We went to Burton Elementary, Buchanan Elementary, and then we ended up staying at Alger Elementary. JJ: Why did you go in three different elementary schools? CMV: Because of the district. Because of the district. That’s why we had to move from different schools. JJ: Because you moved from one -- CMV: From one place to the other. JJ: Even though you didn’t really live that far. But you just happened to be on that dividing line of the school and so you went to the three different schools. CMV: I went to the three different schools. JJ: So how was that change for you in the school? How did that affect you? CMV: [00:13:00] To be honest with you, it really didn’t affect me much because when I was in elementary school, I really wasn’t a person that -- the person that I am now. I wasn’t that person when I was a little kid. JJ: Why are you -- what do you mean the person that you are now? CMV: The person that I am now is like very talkative. I talk to a lot of people or whatnot just to get to know them or whatever. But when I was a little kid, you had to talk to me first. If you wanted to talk to me or whatever, you had to come talk to me. I wouldn’t go to you and start talking. JJ: And why was that? Any -- why do you think that? CMV: I was more shy when I was a little kid. I wasn’t really outgoing, didn’t really have a lot of friends in elementary school. 10 �JJ: You’re talking about in Jersey, [00:14:00] you were shy. CMV: No, I’m talking about here. JJ: Here in Michigan. Why were you shy? Did you go out and play a lot or whatever? CMV: Not really. I would always keep to myself. Which that was -- it was weird for me because at Roberto Clemente over there in Newark, we -- I have so many different friends and stuff of different cultures. I had Dominicans, I had Cubans, white, Blacks, all different types of cultures, I had friends. And always talking, playing with each other and stuff like that at school. And when I came over here, it was like completely different. Weird looks from the little kids and stuff like that and -JJ: You get -- your what? Your look? CMV: Weird looks. JJ: From the little kids or...? CMV: Yeah, from the classmates and stuff. So that’s -- I think that’s where I -JJ: What were the classmates? What nationalities were they? CMV: American. JJ: [00:15:00] White American or...? CMV: White American. JJ: And you got weird looks from them? CMV: I would always get weird looks from them or whatnot. And the Hispanics, the little bit of Hispanics that were even in my class when I was school or whatnot, they were the same way that I was. They kept to themselves, they were quiet or 11 �whatnot. But if I would, like with my mom, if I would go out or something like that to the store or something, I would see the same little kids and they were playing with their own little friends with -- with friends of their own neighborhoods, of their own culture. And it was different. They had their friends from their neighborhood that they played with that they would laugh with and everything like that. But when you would see them in school, it was like they kept to themselves, shy, completely blocking everybody out [00:16:00] because of the looks that we were getting when we were little kids. JJ: In the classrooms. CMV: In the classroom, yeah. JJ: In the school. So it didn’t happen in the neighborhood because you were among other -- CMV: Other people of our same culture of -- or even Blacks, African American Blacks. That they would be in the neighborhood or whatnot. They would share the same kind of culture as us because they would want to know more. You know, new persons, new culture let’s learn more, let’s become friends and stuff like that. So growing up, I was raised more around Hispanics and African Americans. JJ: And you get along fine at home. CMV: Mm-hmm. We get along perfectly fine at home. JJ: Okay. So -- but in school, there was -- you can feel it. You can feel the (inaudible) -- CMV: Yeah, you could feel that it -- that tension between [00:17:00] classmates or whatnot. 12 �JJ: Okay, so now, what school are -- so now, you’re still living there, don’t you? How long did you live there? CMV: Where? JJ: In this -- where you were -- was in Union that you mentioned near Burton? CMV: Oh, on Union and Elliott. We lived there for -- since like ’90 -- I want to say like ’96, ’97. And we actually moved out of there in ’99. My mom and -- my mom moved my brother, my sister, and myself to the neighborhood of Francis and Griggs in ’98, ’99. JJ: In ’98, ’99? CMV: Yeah, my mom and my dad, they separated. Since the house was underneath my dad’s name, my mom went, she got her own house. JJ: What was some of the reasons they gave for separation? Do you know or...? CMV: My mom cheated on my dad. JJ: Oh, your mom cheated. CMV: Yeah, my mom cheated on my dad. (laughs) JJ: [00:18:00] It’s just plain -- CMV: Plain and simple, you know? And it was kind of difficult for me to understand, me being the youngest. My brother didn’t care. He had his friends. He would be out going out in the middle of the night and stuff like that. My sister, she had her own little friends or whatnot that she made herself. And but me, it was kind of difficult for me because I’m the youngest and I wasn’t understanding it, right? With my dad would come to visit or whatnot. If he would see my mom’s boyfriend or whatever, he would start arguing with him or whatnot and it was real difficult for 13 �me to understand and it tore me apart. And there was alternating weekends that I would stay [00:19:00] with my dad and then stay with my mom. And jumping back and forth -JJ: Now, what tore you apart, the divorce or what ha- -- the cheating part? CMV: The cheating part, to be honest with you. JJ: Why would that tear you apart? CMV: That tore me apart because we were perfectly fine in Jersey to be honest with you. If we would’ve stated in New Jersey, we would’ve -- I still believe that my mom and my dad would still be together because we were around family and friends that believed that family should stick together. And it was kind of weird that after moving over here to Michigan a few years later, my mom and my dad separate which to me, it wasn’t even right. JJ: Just in a few years it can just change. CMV: In a few years, in a few years. JJ: Because there were -- you didn’t have any family there or...? CMV: The only family that we had over here was my mom’s sister. That’s it. Everybody else was over there in New Jersey. JJ: [00:20:00] So the moving kind of broke up the family. CMV: Exactly. Yeah. JJ: So the fam- -- by then, there were gains and everything like that. And then there’s -- CMV: There were gains over there and everything. But to be honest with you, as far as I know from stories that my dad would tell me and everything was he knew in the 14 �neighborhood, whatever gang members were in the neighborhood, they were like our protectors. You know, of course, yeah, I don’t even know what gang it was or anything like that, but it was like their territory. Their -- they would protect whoever lived in that area. If you lived on Mount Prospect and there was gang members that lived right among us, they would protect us. They would protect the area, the neighborhood, they protect it. So my dad, he could be outside with his friends and stuff like that [00:21:00] and not have to worry about anything. But they would let us know, look -JJ: What about the group? And they would let us know what? CMV: They would let us know, look, this is what’s going on or whatnot because they would be enough friends and stuff. Everybody knew each other in the neighborhood. JJ: And what about their favorite girls, the women? Would they be able to walk freely or...? CMV: At night time, no. At night time, no. The females, the way that they had them was if you are walking down the street and you are with a guy, the guy should always stand next to the street. He would walk in -- on the right side or the left side depending if you’re going or coming. The female would always be on the inside of the street, never on the outside. I really never understood that or anything, but that’s just the way that it was. The females were always [00:22:00] protected. JJ: Otherwise they would say that the (Spanish) or something. CMV: Yeah. That’s what I understood afterwards. 15 �JJ: Did you ever hear that term? CMV: Yeah, like if the -- if you’re walking down the street with the -- with a guy friend or whatnot and you’re the one walking next to the street or whatever, that means that basically the guy that you’re with is selling you so I understood that afterwards. JJ: But I mean, did they say that? I mean, you understood it. Did they said it? CMV: I understood it afterwards. JJ: When I grew up, that’s what they said (inaudible). CMV: Mm-hmm. Yeah, afterwards is when I understood what that meant. Because I never understood why -- if I was with a cousin of mine or something like that, he would tell me, “No, you’re standing over here. Get on my other side,” when we would walk to the store or something like that. I never understood that. And after I grew up a little bit more is when I understood what that meant. JJ: Now, the American kids, did they do that or that was just the Puerto Rican thing? CMV: It was more of a Hispanic thing. It was more of the [00:23:00] Puerto Ricans and stuff doing that. JJ: It was more Hispanic. CMV: Because the Americans, they didn’t care. It was like, “I’m walking on this side, you’re walking on that side. It doesn’t really matter or anything like that.” JJ: Interesting. Were there any other things like that in the culture that you recall or...? Or off the top of your head. CMV: Off the top of my head, when we were living -- the more memories that I have is more of Mount Prospect in north Newark. And we would have -- even though we 16 �didn’t have a yard, we will still have barbecues. We had a little fenced-in bricks, like cement floor or whatever. It was still fenced in. JJ: In the back or the front? CMV: In the front. And we would have our little grill right there, some chairs, and we would be cooking meat on the grill and everything, people from the neighborhood would come over and we’ll make it into -- it will end up as a block party kind of thing. It’ll start off as a barbecue and it’ll end up like a block party kind of thing. [00:24:00] And that’s the way that it was. When the -- if you -- if the females were outside with their parents and stuff, they always had to be with their parents and stuff. But after it started getting dark, it really didn’t matter as much of the guys being outside because they could protect their own. They could protect themselves. But the females are more vulnerable or whatnot so the females would stay inside. JJ: Now, did your mother tell you that or your father or who told you that? CMV: No, just growing up, you knew about that. JJ: You knew that just (inaudible) -- CMV: Just in the neighborhood, you knew that. JJ: Not to do it. CMV: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay, so now you’re in Grand Rapids and you’re in Grand Rapids, Michigan and you’re -- now you’re on Francis? CMV: Yeah, Francis and Griggs. Nice neighborhood. JJ: Okay. And so your -- the divorce is taking place? 17 �CMV: Yeah, my mom and my dad. JJ: Did your mother remarry or no? CMV: She [00:25:00] stayed with the guy that she cheated on my dad with. But after that -JJ: Well, he move in or...? Later after -- CMV: Yeah, he did move in for a few months or whatnot and then -JJ: Was he Puerto Rican too or...? CMV: No. He was white, white American. And he stayed there for a few months or probably a year, I can’t remember right. And that’s when we moved into the Francis and Griggs house, that’s when all three of us became rebellious. JJ: Okay. That time that you -- now, why would you become rebellious? From the neighborhood or just from (inaudible)? CMV: Me personally -- no, just because of what was going on at home. I became rebellious, I didn’t want to go to school, I would hang around with kids from the neighborhood or whatnot. If I did go to school, [00:26:00] I really wasn’t paying attention or whatever. I would have breakdowns at school and -JJ: What do you mean breakdowns? CMV: Breakdowns. I would overthink what’s going on in my head. I would overanalyze it. Like if I was having a problem at home or whatever or the stuff that was going on between Mom and Dad, I would overanalyze it and I would just go to a little corner of the coat closet or whatever in class and I wouldn’t let nobody get near me or anything like that. If the kids would start laughing at me, I would cuss them 18 �out. I really didn’t care. I didn’t -- at a very -- at that young age in elementary school, I really didn’t care. I just wanted to leave everything behind. JJ: What do you mean, what do you mean just leave -- CMV: Just leave everything behind. I wanted -JJ: You weren’t thinking about suicide or anything? CMV: No, no, no, no, no, nothing like that. [00:27:00] I wasn’t thinking about taking my life or anything like that but I really wanted to just get my mom, get my dad, get my brother and my sister and say, “You know what? F this, we’re going back to Jersey.” Because the transition of moving from New Jersey to over here, to me at that time and still today when I think about it, that’s the reason why my mom and my dad separated. To me, that’s the reason. They could say, you know, we fell out of love, there wasn’t nothing there tying us up together no more, whatever, whatever. We were little kids. What do you mean there wasn’t nothing holding -- tying it up together anymore? We were a family. JJ: So just the fact that you moved is the reason? CMV: To me, that’s the reason why my mom and my dad separated. JJ: Because you went -- because you moved from where you had a lot of family -- CMV: And friends and stuff, we moved over here. JJ: -- to a place where you didn’t know anyone. CMV: Exactly. JJ: And now, [00:28:00] the whole world just kind of changed? I’m not putting words in your mouth. 19 �CMV: The whole world. No, no, no, no, no. It completely changed. It was something that I wouldn’t even want. JJ: And where -- and you said your sisters were? Or your brother and your sister? CMV: Yeah, my brother, he became rebellious leaving. JJ: Why kind of stuff did he do? CMV: He would leave after school, he would leave. He wouldn’t come back home, he would be hanging out with his friends drinking, partying, stuff like that. He was the oldest so he would -- and since he’s a guy, my mom didn’t really worry about what he was doing. JJ: So now he had friends. Now he had -- CMV: Yeah, he had friends at the time. He had friends and everything. And my mom really didn’t care as much as what he did because since he’s the guy or whatnot of her three kids, she really didn’t care what he did. [00:29:00] But when it came down to my sister and myself, she tried to be more strict. And we found it to be unfair. So my sister, she made friends with some neighbors or whatnot and she did whatever she wanted to do. And then me, I try to be like my sister and my brother. Did whatever I wanted to do and stuff like that, didn’t want to go to school or anything, but -JJ: And so then your mother is telling your brother that he can do whatever he wants because he’s a boy. CMV: Exactly, yeah. JJ: And was that just your mother or was that part of the -- 20 �CMV: No, that was part of the -- the way that we were raised is the females would be at home cooking, cleaning, attending to the father and to if there was any other male family members or whatnot. [00:30:00] And after everything was done in the house, then you could go ahead if there’s time. Then you could go ahead and go play and do whatever. But the things of the house had to be done first. JJ: And you couldn’t stay out late. CMV: Nope. JJ: So Griggs and Francis, is that where you started with the KO Club or...? CMV: Yes. JJ: Okay. It was called the KO Club or Knockout? CMV: Yeah. (laughs) To be honest with you, I thought that was the name of it at first, Knockout Club. (laughs) JJ: (inaudible) Okay, so who was that about? Who was there? And where was it at? CMV: It was on Francis and Burton. It was at a church. JJ: United Methodist Church, the big one? CMV: Yeah, the big one. I never knew the name of that, but thanks for letting me know. I didn’t know. JJ: United Methodist, United Methodist. CMV: Okay. I never knew the name of it. I just knew exactly where I had to go. But it [00:31:00] was -JJ: And how did you find out about it? CMV: Some kids of the neighborhood that actually told us about it. JJ: Just the kids right in the neighborhood knew about it? 21 �CMV: Mm-hmm, yeah. JJ: Okay, because they had gone door to door? CMV: And they, yeah. No, they’ve ac- -- I guess they had gone before or they heard about it or something like that. And then they -- word of mouth got out, basically. JJ: Word of mouth. They got in and they liked it or no? CMV: Yeah, they liked it. There was various different type of cultures going over there. There was Hispanics, there was the African Americans that were going. A few white ones but not as much. But it was still fun. JJ: So when did they do this? What time? What hours? CMV: It was like an after-school program for kids in elementary school, middle school and stuff. I’m telling you, it was fun. JJ: And was it in the school or was it in the church? CMV: No, it was in the church. It was like the [00:32:00] auditorium of the church. JJ: So it was an after-school program but it was done at the church in the neighborhood. So that was the difference. Most after-school programs are done in the schools. CMV: Yeah. This one was more focused on the neighborhood kids. JJ: On the neighborhood kids. Okay. So it was to try to prevent -- CMV: Prevent them from becoming rebellious, stealing, gang banging and stuff like that. It was a program that you would go there so you could be able to meet more people of the community, do more activities. Keep us out of trouble. JJ: Was there trouble in the area before that? 22 �CMV: When we moved over there, we heard from our neighbors or whatnot that it was - that there was a lot of stealing, robbing, breaking and entering, and stuff like that. And when this program emerged, [00:33:00] it was completely different. We -- a lot of the kids from the neighborhoods that were going to this program playing games, shooting basketball, jumping ropes and stuff like that in the auditorium. Talking about their days with each other and whatnot at school, what they learned, different types of things. JJ: So that means they had like little -- it was like a support type of thing or group or something like that? Groups? CMV: Yeah. It was the -- I’m not going to say that in this club, there was little groups or whatnot but -JJ: But they had different ages (inaudible). CMV: Yeah, different ages. But to be honest, there was like little separate groups or whatnot and I just kicked the camera. JJ: (inaudible) CMV: But there was little groups or whatnot because of the ages. But then those would even separate into even more little groups like the girls would go with the girls, the guys would go with the guys or whoever knew [00:34:00] how to play basketball would go with the basketball players and stuff like that. But other than that, it was fun. I loved it. (laughs) JJ: Pretty good. Okay, now there was also -- do you remember any trips that they made or...? 23 �CMV: Oh my goodness! There was one. I remember there was plenty of them but the only one that sticks in my head because it was something that I always wanted to do when I was a little kid was a trip that we did to Camp O’Malley. That was the best for me. JJ: Okay. And you did a (inaudible)? Now, what was that like? CMV: That? It was super fun. At first, I thought -- I was super geeked out, I was super excited. I wanted to go, I wanted to go, I wanted to go. JJ: Actually, that was with the police. The KO Club worked with the police. They ran the camp. CMV: They did? JJ: Yeah, the police ran the camp. CMV: Oh, well then dang. JJ: But the K -- but it was run by the KO Club. The KO Club kind of -- CMV: Gotcha. I was like hold up. (laugher) JJ: [00:35:00] Well, no, no, no. Well, no, no, I mean, the police were volunteers. And they weren’t trying to find -- they weren’t trying to find out any -- CMV: Yeah, they weren’t trying to find no drug dealers or anything. (laughs) JJ: So it was because a lot of new members from the KO Club used to be in the Young Lords. So that’s the -- (laughs) it was the Young Lords (laughs) and the police working together. CMV: God dang, yeah, they was just trying to protect us all. (laughs) JJ: So you didn’t know too much about the Young Lords. CMV: No, I didn’t know nothing about them. 24 �JJ: (inaudible) the KO Club. CMV: Yeah, I knew that it was always called the KO Club. JJ: We did show some films, though, about Chicago and -- CMV: Yeah, you guys did. JJ: Do you recall those films that we showed? CMV: I recall them but since I was so young and stuff like that, the thing -JJ: Do you remember they were films about the Young Lords and stuff like that. CMV: Yeah, there was always films, there was always talk about different activities, different meetings, and stuff like that in our own community and we even went out and did different types of vol- -- of things like that. JJ: [00:36:00] So what you’re trying to say is that there was -- the community changed a little bit because of it. CMV: Yeah, it did. To be honest with you, it changed a lot. JJ: How did it change? CMV: It changed because the kids were occupied after school till probably dinner time or whatnot. JJ: Their behavior, too, right? CMV: Yeah. And there was a lot of different changes in the neighborhood. There wasn’t as much what they like to say crime. There wasn’t that much of it. You didn’t see the kids running around like they were animals or anything like that. Because a lot of them, you would find them at the church. JJ: Because they knew each other now. So that’s -- it became more -- so if you walk down the street now, you know everybody, everybody. 25 �CMV: Exactly. JJ: So everybody kind of looked out for each other. CMV: Exactly. JJ: Am I putting words in your mouth? CMV: No. (laughs) JJ: It just happens. CMV: It actually -- after knowing [00:37:00] the kids in the neighborhoods and the families because we would play at each other’s houses. And after knowing the families or whatever, they actually brought me memories of when I lived at Mount Prospect. That we all knew each other, that we all helped each other, looked out for each other when it came to school or whatnot. The kids, the friends that went to school together or whatever, we would help each other out in school work and stuff so -JJ: So even me saying the -- even me saying the KO Club, and I know you had a long day today. CMV: Who are you kidding? I had a very long day today. JJ: We were in your restaurant. What’s the name of your restaurant? CMV: El Rincón Criollo. JJ: El Rincón Criollo in Grand Rapids, Michigan. CMV: Yes. JJ: This is your mom’s restaurant. CMV: Yes. JJ: Okay. How did this start? 26 �CMV: This start -- it’s been a passion of my mom for years [00:38:00] since she was a - in her teenage years. It’s always been a passion of hers to own a restaurant, to cook and stuff like that and it finally came true for her back in September of 2009. JJ: And what sort of food do you serve there? CMV: Authentic Puerto Rican food. JJ: And what does that mean? CMV: It’s not food that’s -- that all you see around here is all Mexican food or Chinese food or the dreaded fast food. Here, whatever you order from the menu, you have -- you ha- -- depending on what you order is depending on how much time you’re going to wait. But the seasonings and stuff like that that my mom has is of course, yeah, is from Goya but is ingredients that she used growing up with learning how to cook [00:39:00] with her mom and her dad and stuff. So it’s not food that you’re going to come here once and never come here again because the seasoning sucked. No. It’s actually food that a lot of Puerto Ricans, they come here and or even Cubans, Dominicans, or whatnot. They come here and it’s like it takes them back home back to their island. And it’s something -- it brings a smile to my face every day. JJ: And she does the cooking and you do the cooking or (inaudible) together? CMV: She is actually the one who taught me how to cook so it’s actually kind of exciting. She cooks the rices, she cooks all the food or whatnot, but there’s a lot of the things that she cooks that I know how to cook already. Sometimes I put my own little twist to it but that’s when she’s not here. 27 �JJ: See, I remember her because I used to buy pasteles from her. And so she’s did the pasteles for a while first. So it was like a stepping stone? CMV: Yes, it was. JJ: [00:40:00] But this is her first restaurant? CMV: This is her first restaurant. It’s her pride and joy. JJ: And it’s going pretty well (inaudible). CMV: Yes, it is. JJ: Okay. So okay. So I don’t know what else to say. Now, tell me about Camp O’Malley again. CMV: Camp O’Malley, it was the best. We got there, there was all these kids running around and I wanted to run around and everything and -JJ: This was by Alaska, Michigan it was called. CMV: Yeah, by Alaska Lake and over there somewhere around over there. Yeah. JJ: Alaska Lake in Michigan. Okay, and 68th Street. CMV: Yeah, there you go. JJ: But it’s in the country. CMV: Oh, it’s more country than what East Coast people call this country. They call it -they call this country, but they haven’t seen the country-country that we know that’s country. JJ: Right. Right. And so you went there on a weekend, like on a Friday or something? CMV: Yeah, it was like a weekend that we came over here or that we went over there to [00:41:00] Camp O’Malley. It was exciting, though. We -- 28 �JJ: Were you there for a week or for a weekend? CMV: I think I was there for a week. JJ: You were there for a week. CMV: Yeah. I wanted to stay more but Mami wanted me home. JJ: Did a bunch of people go or I mean, what was that like? CMV: No, from the KO Club as far as I know, the trip that I took to go over there, there was like, probably like five of us that went in the van to go over there. JJ: Right, there are only so many tables, yeah. CMV: Mm-hmm. JJ: But then we had some other who stayed(inaudible). CMV: Yeah. After we were there for a week, then another group came and then it was like that. JJ: Okay, so what was they -- how did it run? How did they run it? CMV: Oh my goodness. It was so much fun. As soon as we would get up in the morning times, of course, we’d have to fix the bed or whatnot. We would have breakfast and they have all different types of activities planned for us. They had the obstacle course for us, we would go swimming, hiking, all these different types of things and that’s what excited me. [00:42:00] Oh my goodness, the cabins. They would play practical jokes on each other. The guys, I remember this, the guys, there was one time that the person that the camp person that was in our room, she allowed us to go into one of the guy’s bunk cabin or whatnot. And we searched for all their underwears and we just threw them everywhere. We put them on the ceiling fan, on all their beds and everything like that so at the 29 �end of the day, they were searching around to see whose underwears were whose. (laughs) But then they got back at us. We had went out to do the obstacle course and to go swimming and stuff. And when we came back at night time, we found our bras and our underwears just spread everywhere. And it was fun; It was something that I would love to go back. JJ: Did you go canoeing or none of that stuff? CMV: No, we didn’t get [00:43:00] to go canoeing or anything. JJ: But I remember there was a little river. CMV: Yeah, there was but we didn’t get to go canoeing or anything. We did the obstacle course and the obstacle course, they had this -- oh my goodness, what is it called? I think it was called the high ropes. Yeah. They tried to get me on those. I was like, “Uh-uh. I’m scared of heights, I’m not going up there. I don’t care what you guys tell me. (laughs) I’m not going.” But it was fun, it was fun. I had a lot of fun at Camp O’Malley. JJ: Were they trying -- what were they trying to teach you? Do you know or...? CMV: They -- them there, they were trying to teach us about the different cultures. The different cultures to interact with one another. If you guys didn’t get along, they would try to figure out a way for you guys to get along. It was something that taught us a lot about the different cultures and stuff like that. JJ: [00:44:00] Okay. Now that -- you mentioned the neighborhood and the KO Club because it was a neighborhood group, a neighborhood after-school program. CMV: Yes. 30 �JJ: So it was modeled after the group the Young Lords. Do you know what (inaudible)? CMV: I’m going to look them up when I -- as soon as I (laughs) -JJ: (inaudible). CMV: I’m going to look them up. I want to learn more. JJ: There was a [KO Club?]. Okay, what -- any final thoughts that you want to -- that you want to talk about especially while you’re here? CMV: Final thoughts? Thanks to the KO Club is who I am now. Yeah, I went through a big rebellious stage of not listening, stealing and stuff like that. But -JJ: Stealing? Like -- CMV: Oh yeah, stealing. I -- yeah. I’m a bad girl. I’ve -- I’ve stolen from [00:45:00] my own family members, I’ve stolen from stores and stuff like that. Got put on probation. Yeah, it’s on my record and stuff like that but it’s things that I learned from. It’s things that I learned from or whatnot. But the experience that I learned at the KO Club, I wouldn’t trade that for the world. JJ: So what experience? I don’t understand. What did you learn there? CMV: The experience that I learned there was being around friends and family, people that support you, that are there for you. If you ever need to talk to somebody, they’re there and stuff. I think the reason that I did so good in the KO Club in school while I was in the program was because I had that support group there for me. After I -JJ: In fact, that’s what the KO Club was: support. A bunch of support. Because that’s what we were trying, yeah. 31 �CMV: Yeah, it was. Yeah. It was [00:46:00] a complete support group for the neighborhood kids. That’s why I felt so comfortable being there. Not just because that was kids from the neighborhood or anything but because of it being a support group. JJ: And those people were -- it was run by -- wasn’t it run by the members themselves or...? CMV: As far as I’m concerned, there were so many people there, but the only person that I remember was you. (laughter) There was a lot of people there, a lot of -JJ: Okay. A lot of support. CMV: Yeah, a lot of support. If you ever needed to talk to somebody either it being from drugs or it being from gangs or it being from stealing, robbing, and all that different types of stuff, there was somebody there that you could actually talk to and that was actually the good thing about it. You could talk to somebody and you felt comfortable talking to this person because the person was so (Spanish) that they wouldn’t -JJ: Trust. CMV: Trust. That they -- that whatever you tell me, I’m a tombstone. [00:47:00] I’m not going to tell nobody. So that’s what made a lot of the kids very comfortable. JJ: And there were people from their own culture there also that can help you there. Anything else that you would like to -- your mom got involved in the church, though, does she or...? (inaudible) CMV: Yeah, my mom’s at -- she goes to -- if I get this wrong, she’s going to kill me. (laughter) She went to -- she goes to Manantial De Vida. 32 �JJ: Manantial De Vida. CMV: On Grandville and Franklin. And -JJ: Is it a kind of homeschool church or...? CMV: It’s a Pentecostal church. I actually grew up in the church. I left the church -JJ: In the Pentecostal Church? CMV: Yeah. I left the church or whatnot when I started making my own decisions and everything. I have gone back to church but I always believe that there’s [00:48:00] a time that He’s going to have us go to church or whatnot. But thanks to the church, my mom’s restaurant’s been booming with the catering and the food here and everything so it’s kind of cool. JJ: Okay, but did you have any children or anything like that or...? CMV: Yes, I have one baby girl. She’s four years old. JJ: What’s her name? CMV: [Kelina?]. JJ: Kelina. (inaudible) CMV: Yeah. JJ: (inaudible) CMV: If you see this, Mami loves you. (laughter) Yeah, she -- that’s my pride and joy. She keeps me on my toes when she’s with me. She’s going to be five now in November 25th and yeah, that’s -- that’s my baby girl. I love that little girl. Thanks to her, I have calmed down because before her, I was clubbing every single weekend not caring about nothing in the world. JJ: What sort of clubs were your tribe? 33 �CMV: I would go to [00:49:00] to Toscano which is a Latin club and Azucar before they put it down. JJ: Okay. They put it down? CMV: Yeah. They put it down. They closed it down for -- because there was too many fights breaking out. I guess a few people done got killed over there. So they had to -- the city closed it down. The city wouldn’t give them back their liquor license or their beer license so what the heck is a club without you being able to buy a Long Island iced tea or a Corona? You know, so... JJ: Now, have you seen the Puerto Rican community grow here at all or how -- have you seen their (inaudible)? CMV: To be honest with you, the only Hispanic community that you’re ever going to find (laughs) in Grand Rapids is actually Grandville Avenue. And it’s been growing a lot. JJ: This is where the restaurant (inaudible). CMV: Yes. It’s -- there’s actually right up the street [00:50:00] from here on Hall and Grandville across the street from Hall Elementary School is the Hispanic Center. And every single year, they do the march for César Chávez and it’s like in this area, what you call Grandville Avenue, you’re going to find a whole bunch of Hispanics. Not only Puerto Ricans but Dominicans, Cubans, Mexicans, Guatemalans, Hondurians [sic], of all parts of Latin America. Mexico, South America, Center, you know, the islands and stuff. You’re going to find a whole bunch of us. It’s kind of weird that by a street, an avenue is -- that it has -- that’s where you can find the Hispanics but that’s how it is. 34 �JJ: Okay. The neighborhood is kind of growing you said? CMV: It is, it’s growing a lot. Before, [00:51:00] it wasn’t booming like it is now. Before, there wasn’t so many, how can you say, restaurants and Hispanic stores or anything like that. And now there’s at least, let me see, one, two, three, four, five, six, like around six or seven different restaurants just on Grandville. There’s a huge bakery right across the street from this restaurant. There’s a Guatemalan store right next to us, there’s one, two, three, four, five barber shops. And out of those five, one, two, three are beauty salons, as well, mixed together with the barber shop. And it’s something that before, there -- it wasn’t like that. And it’s been growing a lot. JJ: [00:52:00] Okay. Do you have any final thoughts? CMV: Final thoughts is if you guys want some real good food, authentic Puerto Rican food, caterings for any kind of occasions and stuff like that, I suggest you guys come to Rincón Criollo located at 1523 Grandville Avenue, telephone number 616-241-5591. JJ: All right. That’s good. END OF VIDEO FILE 35 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/ba5ddc01fb42fc0c9e0a5807d2e22bc4.mp4 1f1c89e8fef4bf4cecd1b956396ac77f Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Charlyne Martínez-Villegas vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Martinez-Villegas_Charlene Title A name given to the resource Charlyne Martínez-Villegas video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Martínez-Villegas, Charlyne Description An account of the resource Charlyne Martínez-Villegas came to Grand Rapids, Michigan from New Jersey where she loved it because there were many Puerto Ricans. In Grand Rapids she was only one of a few. Another reason that she loved New Jersey is that that is where her mother and father were still married. She explains that as soon as their family arrived in Grand Rapids, her parents divorced. Her mother worked hard trying to make ends meet, preparing homemade pasteles that people would order from her ahead of time and then she would have to have them ready at all hours of the day or week. Eventually her mother’s homemade business led to opening up a small restaurant on Grandville Avenue which is always filled with patrons. In Grand Rapids, Ms. Martínez-Villegas began to get in trouble at school and in the neighborhood on the southeast side of the city, by Garfield Park. She missed her friends back in New Jersey and in school “she just did not fit in…the kids were mostly white, or black.” She explains that she could relate a little better with black children because they shared a lot of things in common. She also missed her father. The Young Lords were passing out flyers door-to-door. But they did not use the name “Young Lords” publicly. Instead they called themselves the “KO CLUB.” And they had a way with words. She explains that they had to read some pledges and phrases and everything began with KO: “Keep Open Your Hearts” or “Keep Standing Up for Yourself” or “Keep Open Your Mind.” Their meetings were held in a United Methodist Church, and the heads of the KO Club were Pastor Marge Berman, who was of Mexican descent, and Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. Members of the Club were also shown several videos about the Young Lords.The young people who participated in the Club and the small congregation were supportive. But there were a few within the church who did not like the Young Lords, who had taken over Methodist Churches in New York and Chicago. Those same individuals also did not like Pastor Berman, who was new and wanted more interaction with the community. Pastor Berman had read a newspaper article about the Young Lords while Mr. Jiménez was working as a substance abuse counselor for Project Rehab. She contacted him by phone. And when they met for the first time, Pastor Berman told him that he was sent by God. To which Mr. Jiménez replied, “Did God send any money? Because I have bills.” Mr. Jiménez did want to organize and help youth, but he wanted to do so around issues related to the Young Lords. Pastor Berman just wanted to save souls. It was a good understanding, but Mr. Jiménez would have to work incognito because using the name Young Lords name would be like saying the word “gang” in Grand Rapids. The KO Club worked well because it was not an after school program. It was an “in the neighborhood program.” It was focused on youth like Ms. Martínez-Villegas who did not want anything to do with school. And while others were saying to all youth who got in trouble, “Lock them up and throw away the key.” the KO Club had their own public slogan: “Support Youth For A Change.” Parents had to get involved, because the KO Club would visit them in their home and let them know that they were not babysitters. Once a month parents would attend amateur night where the KO CLUB members would perform for them and the rest of the community. Organizing was constantly being done door-to-door. KO CLUB was like a good gang and everyone was a member. Their colors were black and purple, but their symbol was a heart with KO in the middle and a cross above the heart. Once a year there was an annual dinner with the community where many members of the United Methodist Church attended including the Bishop. It was cost effective as it was run more like support groups divided by age: pee wee, juniors, and seniors. They would all have a chance to express themselves in a variety of ways, including discussion, with music, or in sports. The only problem came from the adults. Some wanted to make it more ecumenical to include the community at large and others wanted the organization to be more faith-based. Still others wanted control. And Pastor Berman was moved to a church in Los Angeles, California. Mr. Jiménez was left alone, fighting church elders who were paranoid that Mr. Jiménez might want to speak for the church. Mr. Jiménez understood their fears and resigned in an amicable way. The youth program continues today and it is being run more privately within the church. Ms. Martínez-Villegas says that it is what she needed then with the loss of her father, and that participating in the KO Club turned her life around. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-06-05 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d4fe53cfe2fca7e5123187d7c8d8c50c.pdf 0c248ef4b11e0c7f652b170db4a63bf6 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Guillermo Martínez Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/2/2012 Biography and Description English Guillermo Martínez was born in Puerto Rico. In the 1950s he moved to Chicago, settling in the most northern and western edge of Lincoln Park, near Diversey Parkway and Ashland Avenue. He is a homeowner and because he was not close to the lake, the area where he lived was not affected by high taxes and building inspectors until later than other areas of Lincoln Park. Mr. Martínez describes his memories of Lincoln Park, including the Puerto Rican youth groups of the area, local taverns, and social clubs. He also discusses his membership in the Hermanos de Dios or Brothers of God and his desire to eventually sell his home and move back to Puerto Rico to retire. Even within the Puerto Rican community of Lincoln Park, there was debate about the effects of urban renewal. Mr. Martínez provides insight into these differing perspectives, including his belief that the Puerto Rican community of Lincoln Park was not forced out, but moved by choice. As someone who benefitted financially by having the neighborhood transition raise his property value, he describes what he sees as the positive aspects of urban renewal and its long-term effects on Lincoln Park and Chicago. �Spanish Guillermo Martínez nació en Puerto Rico. En los 1950s se mudó a chicago, en la parte más norte y oeste de Lincoln Park, cerca de Diversary Parkway y Ashland Avenue. Dueño de su propia casa y porque no vive cerca del lago, su vecindario no fue afectado por el aumento de impuestos y inspectores de construcción hasta más tarde que muchos de los otras partes de Lincoln Park. Señor Martínez describe sus memorias de Lincoln Park, incluyendo la jóvenes puertorriqueños en la aria, los tabernas, y grupos sociales. También habla sobre sus membrecía en los Hermanos De Dios y su deseo de vender su casa y retirarse a Puerto Rico. Hasta por dentro de la comunidad Puertorriqueña de Lincoln Park, había discusiones de los efectos de la nueva construcción. Señor Martínez suministra una idea de las diferentes perspectivas en la comunidad Puertorriqueña de Lincoln Park que él piensa que no fueron eliminado, sino hicieron la decisión de cambiarlas. Como alguien quien beneficio financiamiento por cambio del vecindario, el describe los cambios positivos que vio por la reconstrucción y los efectos de una duración larga tiene en Lincoln Park y Chicago. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, if you can tell me what your name is and how you got here. GUILLERMO MARTINEZ: Oh, mi nombre es Guillermo Martinez. (Spanish) [00:00:09 00:00:24] JJ: When you came here? GM: Yeah, when I came here. (laughs) JJ: No, es tamb-- it doesn’t matter. Nineteen years old? GM: I barely was 19 years old when I came. JJ: When you arrived, okay? GM: Yeah, when I came here. JJ: So you grew up in Puerto Rico, then? GM: I was born in Puerto Rico. JJ: In what town? GM: Arecibo, Puerto Rico. Barrio Sabana Hoyos. JJ: Barrio Sabana Hoyos, okay. And did you go -- so you went to grammar school there? GM: Yes, I went to grammar schools over in Puerto Rico. JJ: Until eighth grade? GM: That’s all I had, grammar school. JJ: Until the eighth grade, though? GM: Yes. 1 �JJ: So a lot of people don’t understand -- I mean, what was it [00:01:00] like going to school there, in Puerto Rico? What school did you go to? GM: What was the question again? JJ: What school did you go to and what was it like? What was it like? GM: Barrio Sabana Hoyos, Segunda Unidad, Barrio Sabana Hoyos. JJ: (Spanish) [00:01:14] And how do you describe the school? What was school like? GM: Well, they had grades from first grade to first year high. That’s what they -- then from there you go to the high school in Arecibo. Then, so they had from first to eighth grade. JJ: Okay, I mean, did you have to wear uniforms or anything? GM: No, not exactly. I didn’t -- I wear my own clothes and I had to walk about five, maybe five, eight miles to get to school. JJ: Oh, you had to walk? No buses? GM: Walk. Whenever I got to ride by a horse or -- there goes -- a car goes by, a truck load of sugar cane, [00:02:00] I just hang on to it until I get to school. JJ: So there was sugar cane in the area? GM: Yes, there was all sugar cane. JJ: So this was in the country? GM: Yeah, I lived way out. JJ: Way out in the country? GM: Yeah, way out. JJ: And so you would -- sometimes you would hit your ride on a sugar cane -- 2 �GM: Yes. Hanging on a piece of sugar cane. JJ: Hanging by sugar cane, but with a horse? Was the horse driving it or a car? GM: No, a truck. JJ: A truck? GM: Yeah. Semi. Semi. JJ: Semi, okay, full of sugar cane. So that means you went to a different barrio to the school, right? GM: Well, if Arecibo -- Barrio Sabana Hoyos, Arecibo, it’s a big barrio. JJ: It’s a big barrio? GM: I think it’s one of the biggest in the island. JJ: Was it? GM: Of the town of Arecibo, but in the island too. [00:03:00] So it was quite a way from where I was living, Barrio Jobales. It’s a little town, a little barrio. Then I go to Sabana Hoyos, which, it was -- that’s where you had highway number two. JJ: Highway number two? That’s the (inaudible)? GM: Yeah. JJ: And so you’re in a different neighborhood, different barrio. GM: Yes. JJ: Did that create any problems with the other kids? GM: Kids’ problems, that always happened. When I left my town, my barrio, I met other kids. And yes, there was gangs there. They hide screwdrivers or ice pick in boxes of -- candy boxes, like [Coconettos?], (laughs) and then they start 3 �problems. And then [00:04:00] they hide those ice picks in there, and we had to defend ourselves too. JJ: When you say we, you mean other people from where you were? GM: Me and my cousins and all those that come from the little barrio, who were about six or eight. So they don’t like us because they didn’t see us. I guess they were just trying to be friendly, or see how we react by seeing other kids. So you had to fight. JJ: So your family, what did they do? Did they work on the sugar cane, or what did they -- what kind of work did they do? GM: My father had a farm, 50 acres of, you know, rocky land, but we had bananas and yautias. And, you know, we grow all the stuff and we sell it to -- in town, that’s how we -- [00:05:00] but most of the stuff that we consume in the house were grown in the farm. And we raised animals like pigs and goats and chickens. And all that, that’s -- until I got 18 years old. JJ: So the chickens were just to eat, they weren’t to sell. You weren’t selling those. GM: No, were for consuming. JJ: Consuming. And ate the eggs and stuff like that. But the vegetables and fruits you took to the town? GM: Yeah, we sell bananas, platanos, guineo, yautia, calabaza. JJ: And so did you have to work too, in the farm? Did you work with your --? GM: Of course. After school, I had to go feed the horses, las yeguitas. We had to feed the horses and also we had -- we didn’t have no [00:06:00] running water by 4 �the house, we had to go get it at the -- how do you call it, at the spring to bring the water so we could drink and cook. JJ: So no pipes, just spring? GM: Right. You just get it. JJ: Get it right from the ground and that’s the water you drink. GM: Yeah, carry it. Uh-huh. JJ: Okay. (Spanish) [00:06:20] GM: (Spanish) [00:06:21] (laughs) JJ: Okay. So how many brothers and sisters? GM: Well, actually, my mom, she had about -- she lost five, miscarriage, and ten of us survived. Ten of us. JJ: So there were -- GM: Four sisters and six brothers. JJ: Four sisters and six brothers. Okay, were you the oldest? GM: Well, actually, I think that was my sister, which was -- [00:07:00] [Leonora?] was the first one, and my brother, Luis, second one. In between that, Luis and I, I think two kids died. I’m supposed to be about the fifth child. JJ: Okay. GM: Now I’m the oldest. JJ: Now, I’ve heard a lot about these miscarriages. Why were -- what was the reason why there were miscarriages? GM: Well, you know, them days, the women didn’t go to doctor. JJ: To the doctor, right. Prenatal -- 5 �GM: You just get pregnant and have the baby. JJ: At the house they would have it? GM: At the house. And all the kids were born by a comadrona. She’s a midwife. JJ: A midwife? Okay. GM: Which was my mother’s sister. JJ: Okay. Did they train for that? GM: Yeah, they do have training. They do -- JJ: I mean, at that time, did they have training? GM: Yeah, the clinica. [00:08:00] JJ: La clinica would train them how to do it? And so they would get paid to do that? GM: They have to go once a month, and they have more like a -- what they call that? A suitcase or whatever, a bag. And they supply them with all the stuff that they need. JJ: Oh, supplies. GM: Uh-huh. But they are up to date. JJ: So then at that time they were trained? GM: At that time, yeah. JJ: Because they didn’t have clinics in the country? GM: No. JJ: No hospital, no clinic? GM: No, not for -- you had to go to the hospital. And then days, by the time you bring the woman to the hospital, [it might have been horses,] I mean, she’s going to have the baby half the way. (laughs) 6 �JJ: Right, right, right. GM: You’re talking about thirty-something -- JJ: So were you born like that? GM: I was born in 1934. JJ: Comadrona? GM: Yeah, my aunt. JJ: It was your aunt, okay. GM: Yeah, all of us. JJ: Okay. Now, what church? Did you go to church in that area, [00:09:00] or no? GM: My parents were -- they weren’t Catholic. JJ: They were not. Okay. GM: No. But -- JJ: What religion were they? GM: -- we had the grace to be -- they baptized in the Catholic Church. JJ: So they baptized you, but they were not Catholic. GM: Yeah, all of us. But they weren’t Catholic. JJ: But why did they baptize you? GM: What was that? JJ: If they were not Catholic, why did you get baptized? GM: Why did they baptize us in the Catholic Church? They’re not around to ask them that question. (laughs) JJ: Oh, they’re not -- okay. 7 �GM: I never did -- you know, we never asked them why were that way. Why did they do. But that’s what they practiced. JJ: That was the practice. GM: Even though if they were Catholic, you know, they wouldn’t have been able to go to church because -- so far. JJ: Oh, the church was far? GM: Oh, yeah. The first one was Sabana Hoyos. JJ: In Sabana Hoyos, [00:10:00] okay. GM: And sometimes the priest was not there. Yeah. JJ: Were there Spanish priests at that time? GM: Yeah. Spaniards. JJ: Spaniard, but not Puerto Rican. GM: If they were, I wouldn’t know. I mean, you’re talking about a long time ago. JJ: What year are we talking? GM: But you know -- JJ: What year are we talking? GM: What was that? JJ: About what year was this? When you were baptized? GM: I was baptized -- it’s in the record in the church. I found out of the (inaudible). I was a year old. JJ: Oh, you were a year old? GM: They say that I was a year old. JJ: Do you know what year? 8 �GM: Well, I was born in ’34, it would be ’35. JJ: 1935. Okay. ’34, ’35. That’s -- so you knew what the ’40s and -- what were the ’40s like in Puerto Rico? Because a lot of people came in ’45, after ’45, but what were the ’40s like? [00:11:00] GM: During the war, I was reading a book on that, [manochevos?]. During the war, the opening of the war in Germany, so that’s -- things started getting better, the economy, the island started getting better. And there was money, but there was no food. Because all the boat, the barge, you know, the ships were sunk. They never got there. JJ: Oh, you mean during the war you were sinking ships, so the food wasn’t getting to Puerto Rico? GM: What was that? JJ: During the war, they were sinking -- GM: Yeah, so the food don’t get there. JJ: Okay, all right. GM: So people have the money but there’s no food. I mean, you’re lucky if you had the farm; always grow something. JJ: Was there television and radio and all that in Puerto Rico? GM: Well, you know, TV came, television came in [00:12:00] 1948. JJ: Oh, ’48? GM: Yeah. JJ: So what did you do before that? GM: For entertainment? 9 �JJ: Yeah. GM: (laughs) Just invent your own, you know, with the family, with the kids, and visit family. JJ: Okay, visiting. No music or anything? GM: Huh? JJ: Oh, the radio was working. Did you have a radio? GM: The radio -- we had battery. It was battery operated. No electricity at that time. JJ: No electricity at that time. Okay. And no running water? GM: Not in my -- JJ: No water, no electricity? GM: No, we had no running water. JJ: So when it was dark, it was dark. GM: Exactly. It was the moon. JJ: The moon? GM: Yeah. (laughs) I have to remember those days. You know, they were good days. JJ: They were good days? GM: We were raised in a good family. JJ: Everybody went to sleep [00:13:00] early though, right? GM: Oh, you hit the sack early. JJ: Okay. So now -- you came here, you said, in 1953? And was there anyone else from your family here before you? GM: Yes, uncle. An uncle. 10 �JJ: And when did he come? GM: I think he came -- it was in ’49, something like that. JJ: 1949? GM: Yeah, he came about ’48, ’4. It was already three or four years over here. JJ: Did he live here or did he live in another part? GM: He lived right where DePaul is right now. 1136 -- no, 2337 Seminary. JJ: Really? In 1949? GM: Huh? JJ: In 1949? GM: Yeah. JJ: He was living in Lincoln Park in 1949. GM: He was, Lincoln Park. JJ: And were there other Puerto Ricans at that time in Lincoln Park? [00:14:00] GM: I didn’t see too many of them, which is hardly anybody there. They were Mexicans. JJ: Okay, Mexicans, okay. GM: As a matter of fact, the building where he lived, because he lived in the basement, it was owned by a Mexican family. JJ: Okay. And this was in 1949? GM: Yeah. JJ: Okay. You came and -- your reason for coming, why did you come? GM: The reason why I wanted to be -- I came here -- JJ: You came when you were 19, right? 11 �GM: Yeah, 19. JJ: So why did you come? Why did you come here? GM: Oh, looking for a better life. I was in San Juan, I was working at the airport, not the one we got now, the other one. JJ: Okay, another one, okay. GM: What was the other one called? Isla Verde. JJ: Isla Verde, okay. GM: And I see all the [01:15:00] airplanes leave every night. I was right at the airport. I said, I’m going to give it a try. So I wrote my uncle, and he said, “Okay.” He said, “Don’t come in January because there’s no jobs.” So then I waited to July. I think it was July 30, 1953, and I flew here. And then he found me -- I went to look for a job making candy in a factory right here in the neighborhood, which now is gone. JJ: What’s the name of it? GM: Peerless Confection Company. JJ: Peerless Confection Company? GM: Peerless. And then -- JJ: Did he work there? Was he working there? GM: No, but -- JJ: Where did he work? Where did he work? GM: My uncle? JJ: Yeah. 12 �GM: By then, he worked in a factory. He was more kind of a [00:16:00] supervisor already. And they called it [super vet?] JJ: Super vet? GM: Yeah. I think they were making -- I don’t know what kind of machine. It was not food. So he took me there. And two weeks later, I came to (inaudible) in August 12, 1953. I remember that. I started a job. JJ: Okay, now you came when you were 19 years old, a teenager. GM: Mm-hmm. JJ: So did you have a girlfriend in Puerto Rico that you left behind or no? GM: No. JJ: No, you just came. You weren’t. (Spanish) [00:16:36]. GM: (Spanish) [00:16:37]. JJ: Okay, okay. So you didn’t have to worry about -- GM: No. JJ: You just figured, I’m gonna just go and -- GM: Just look for a -- JJ: -- an adventure, like adventure? GM: Uh-huh. JJ: Aventurero? GM: Aventurero. JJ: Okay. And so you started working at -- GM: At Peerless Confection. JJ: Peerless Confection, and where did you live at? 13 �GM: Where did I live at? [00:17:00] 918 West Fullerton, right by the El. JJ: Right by the El, Fullerton and Sheffield. GM: Yeah. JJ: Right over by DePaul? Right over there? GM: Yeah. JJ: Okay, okay. And this was 1953? GM: 1953. JJ: And were there any Puerto Ricans living there, in that area? GM: Yeah, there were a few there, lived right across the street. From San Lorenzo. JJ: From San Lorenzo? GM: I met them and other people -- which, you know, we didn’t -- we didn’t have a club, and say, you see them, you know -- of Puerto Ricans, some are dark, some are light. Look at you, you’ve got blue eyes. So you don’t know if they’re Puerto Rican or they were not. So, but then I knew about five or ten of them. Over in Fullerton area. JJ: [00:18:00] And did they --and you hung around together? GM: No. JJ: You just kind of knew each other. GM: No, you were just -- on the weekends, we -- sometimes we get together, but not all the time. Most of the time I was with my family, visiting family, my uncle. JJ: But in the weekends you got together? Where did you go? GM: I’d go to the Biograph Theater. JJ: Oh, to the Biograph Theater you used to go? In 1953? 14 �GM: Yeah, on [the crest?]. Where I crossed. JJ: Right across the street? GM: Across the street from the Biograph. JJ: And all you guys went over there, all the few Puerto Ricans went over there? GM: No, I was very independent. JJ: Oh, you were very independent, okay. GM: Very independent. JJ: So you just saw them in the neighborhood and said hello. GM: Yeah, some of them I’d talk, but never -- JJ: Were they your age? GM: Sometimes we go to their apartment and have a couple of beers, play some (inaudible), you know, music. JJ: What kind of music? GM: Puerto Rican music. JJ: But what kind, what kind? Who were the singers, do you remember? [00:19:00] GM: Um, Felipe Rodriguez? JJ: Felipe Rodriguez. (Spanish) [00:19:05]? GM: Oh, [La última copa?]. (laughter) JJ: Oh, [La última copa?] (Spanish) [00:19:10]. So [La última copa?] was a good one. But Felipe Rodriguez, any other singers at that time? GM: Popular singers? JJ: I mean, that you got, that you -- 15 �GM: Oh, yeah, I think [Roberto Salaman?], (Spanish) [00:19:27] [Savio?], (Spanish) [00:19:30] [Cajito Delares?], (Spanish) [00:19:36]. JJ: Cajito Delares, so you like [majibara?], musica jibara? GM: (Spanish) [00:19:41]. As a matter of fact, I always listen to country music. JJ: From Puerto Rico? GM: Yeah, because I hang around here. I used to hang around more with [00:20:00] hillbillies. (laughs) JJ: Oh, okay. GM: Southerners. JJ: No, no, there’s always Southerners -- GM: Yeah. I used to hang around. I hung around -- before I got here, I hung around with them. JJ: So you like hillbilly music, too, from here? GM: Because the country music, it reminds you of the -- JJ: Of country music in Puerto Rico? GM: Yeah. It got the same, you know -- JJ: The same beats -- GM: Mountain sound. JJ: Mountain sound. GM: Yeah. So I used to like, I still like country music. My favorite, my favorite was Charlie Price. JJ: Okay, Charlie Price. Okay. Charlie Price. GM: Yeah. To name a few, Eddie Arnold. 16 �JJ: Okay, so you really were into it, into country music. Because it reminds you of the country in Puerto Rico, and your family was from the country. GM: Yeah. You want to feel at home. And that’s how you pass the time. Besides that, you just work. Get up early in the morning, and twelve o’clock [00:21:00] come home and have something to eat. JJ: So you get up in the morning and you listen to the radio to wake you up. GM: In the morning? JJ: Or no? GM: No. JJ: How did you wake up? GM: I just, I get up a half hour before and I walk from, from the El down here to Lakewood. That’s what the factory was. JJ: Okay, and you just walked there? GM: Not even 10 minutes walk. JJ: But you’d take the El and then just walk over here? GM: No, just walk. JJ: Just walk from Fullerton? GM: Yeah, walk from -- JJ: Fullerton, you were at Fullerton and -- GM: Yeah, Fullerton and Sheffield. JJ: Okay, so not that far, so you’d just walk. So a good walk, is that right. GM: Then, until then; later on I got a car, and -- JJ: So were there more Puerto Ricans working in the candy factory there? 17 �GM: Yes, I started there when I was 19. JJ: But there were more more Puerto Ricans working there? GM: Well, I guess, yeah, there were a few, but if I can remember, it -- were about 40 [00:22:00] of my family worked there. JJ: How many? GM: About 40 of them. JJ: Forty? GM: Yeah, they -- I’ll tell you, one time they were passing around the checks: “Martinez, Martinez, Martinez, Martinez,” the guy said, “You might as well take the rest of them.” (laughter) JJ: Those were your family that worked there. GM: Yeah. JJ: So did they all come from Puerto Rico together? GM: Well, you know. JJ: Right after each other, one right -- GM: Yeah. They’d arrive looking for a job, and take him there. JJ: Is that the way people used to come? I mean, they come with their whole family? GM: Well, if they are single, they come single. Sometimes they come, they get married here. JJ: But, I mean, other relatives were -- GM: And they make family bigger. (laughs) JJ: But the relatives would follow them? GM: Oh, yeah, they’d bring their brothers and sisters. 18 �JJ: And then helped set them up and all that? GM: Yeah. JJ: Okay. Okay. So now you’re here and you’re a teenager, did you get in any [00:23:00] problems? You know, teenagers get in trouble. GM: No. JJ: Not trouble, just a working person. GM: No-trouble lifestyle. JJ: Was there a lot of trouble? GM: (inaudible) JJ: No, no, that’s good. I mean, would anybody else get in trouble? Any of your friends that you saw. GM: No, no. But I know, I knew what was all going around. JJ: What was going around, what was going around. So you knew what was going around, but you didn’t get in trouble? GM: No. JJ: So what was going around? GM: Oh, gangs. JJ: Puerto Rican gangs, or --? GM: Puerto Rican gangs, yeah. JJ: What sort of gangs, do you remember them? GM: It really, I -- name some of them? JJ: Yeah, did you know any of the names or --? GM: Yeah, I can remember the Young Lords. 19 �JJ: This is when they were a gang. GM: Huh? JJ: This is when they were a gang, you remember. Because, you know, the Young Lords became political later, but this was when they were a gang. GM: Uh-huh. And the Black Eagles -- JJ: The Black Eagles? GM: The Black Eagles, the [Ambrose?]. JJ: The Ambrose, okay. [00:24:00] GM: I’d see other sides, the (inaudible), but I think they’re from the South Side. JJ: Yeah, on the South Side. Yeah. But you -- GM: And they -- they did some damage to my property. (laughs) JJ: Oh, they did damage to your property. GM: Yeah. JJ: So you didn’t like them. (laughter) You didn’t like them. GM: Yeah, no, I usually have -- JJ: I’m not defending them, I’m not defending them. GM: I own a house here. And they’ll screw it up, break the windows. But you know. JJ: But I mean, this -- because I’m talking back when you were younger and then. So when you were 19 and that, all you did was just work, you didn’t -- GM: Yeah, work. JJ: Go to the Biograph -- GM: Right, and send some money to my parents. JJ: -- have a couple beers, and then send some money. 20 �GM: I sent some of money to my parents so he could finish the house back in Puerto Rico. Because he had all these -- I mean, eight kids were underage when I came here. Because right now I’m 77. And the [00:25:00] youngest, I think, is 60, so I was 16 years older than the youngest. JJ: So is that what people did, they helped their mother and father to make a house for the rest of the family? GM: Yeah, my parents were there. JJ: So you work -- GM: I provide. JJ: -- and you provide some money to help the house because that was going to be for your family. GM: Exactly. JJ: And that’s what everybody did at that time? GM: Yeah. JJ: Most other families did the same thing. GM: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. Now, you said they were Protestant. Your family was Protestant, but here you became Catholic? GM: Well, I didn’t know what they -- they were, they read a book they call La Conexion. And I think it’s more like -- what is that? I don’t -- [00:26:00] Espiritistas? JJ: Oh, Espiritistas? Oh, okay. So, (Spanish) [00:26:02]. GM: Seemed to be, yeah. 21 �JJ: And that’s part of the -- and it’s called Conexion? GM: That’s -- I think that’s the book they have. Kind of a -- Catholics, they have the Bible. JJ: (Spanish) [00:26:18] It’s part of the culture. GM: Sí. JJ: So it’s not really a religion, it’s more -- GM: Like a cult. JJ: Like a cult, something like that. GM: Yeah. So did they try to do, like, promises and -- GM: They never did teach us anything. JJ: They didn’t teach you anything? GM: Never, never, never tell us. Everything was quiet. They did what they did, just my father and my mother. And us, we’re baptized. JJ: You guys were Catholic, but they -- GM: Yeah. As we -- JJ: And your parents were Espiritista, both of them? GM: Yeah. (Spanish) [00:26:52] JJ: Both your father and mother? GM: Hmm? JJ: Both your father and mother were spiritual? GM: Yeah, but they used to sit together and read [00:27:00] the thing. JJ: Did people used to come to get prayers read for them? GM: Yeah, they have -- 22 �JJ: I mean, my mother believed in the same thing, similar. GM: Yeah, group of the spirit, they get together, and they believe that the spirit comes to them, take -- JJ: And takes control of them. GM: Speaks through them. Yeah. JJ: And speak to them, okay. GM: Yeah, yeah. JJ: (inaudible) GM: Mm-hmm. But my father never had them in our house. They’d go somebody, someplace else. JJ: Oh, they went somewhere else. GM: Yeah. So we never were -- really were exposed to that environment. JJ: And how did you -- you know, you became a Catholic later. GM: Here in Chicago. Since I already was baptized -- JJ: So how did you feel about the spiritualists? GM: About Catholic? JJ: About Espiritista, how did you feel? GM: Oh! JJ: Because you’re Catholic. GM: Well, I am a [00:28:00] person that -- respect all faith. JJ: Oh, okay. Okay. 23 �GM: I respect all faith, because who am I to say you are on the wrong track? So I say, if you believe in it, you stick with it. If you need any advice or something, I’ll give it to you. But I’m only going to give it to you if you, you know, ask for it. JJ: Yeah. But you respect it because there’s a lot of people that practice that, right? GM: No, the reason is, I’d say, I respect all faith. JJ: I understand, but there’s a lot of -- a lot of Puerto Ricans believe in spiritualism. GM: I think so. I think so. JJ: Or no, I don’t know. GM: Right now on the island is lot of Protestants. JJ: A lot of Protestants? GM: A great majority of -- JJ: But what about, not Protestant, but spiritual, Espiritista? [00:29:00] GM: Oh, the Espiritista? JJ: Mucho Espiritista? GM: I don’t know since I’ve been gone for so long, you know? JJ: But (Spanish) [00:29:09]? GM: But they did, among -- JJ: At that time, were there some? GM: At that time, yeah. JJ: So a lot of people lived. And that comes more like from the Indian, do you think so? Or no, or from the African? GM: I read someplace that Santeria, Espiritista, they’re since 1898, when the United States took over Puerto Rico. So before that the Spaniards had the priests, 24 �Spanish priests over there. And they were more like owners. They had the properties and everything. And the United States stopped that. The United States stopped that. And then they didn’t like it. So they went back to Spain. [00:30:00] So then all this little group started wanting to keep the faith with whatever they had. They got all different kinds of cults and -JJ: All different cults. GM: But the Spanish brought the Catholics in Puerto Rico. JJ: Okay, but -- because the Spanish brought the Catholicism. GM: Yeah. But the United States came, they don’t like the way it was operated, you know. Owned. JJ: The priests were owning it. GM: They broke all that up. JJ: They broke all that up because the priests were owning it. GM: That’s not allowed. JJ: So the spiritualists were against the priests? No? GM: Espiritismo? JJ: I mean, it was, like, against the Catholic Church, no? Or no? GM: You find people that, they sympathize with the Catholic. JJ: Oh, they sympathize? GM: Or they would say anything. They’re not -- I don’t think they are bothering anybody. [00:31:00] JJ: They don’t bother anybody. GM: Yeah. 25 �JJ: Okay, so, you were more Catholic. You became Catholic here. About what year was that? GM: Before-- ’54. JJ: Fifty-four, as soon as you got here. And how did that happen? GM: Well, my brother-in-law and I, we worked together. He’s the brother of my wife. He passed away. We worked -- I told him, “Hey, let’s go. Let’s go take dancing lessons.” So I cut out a piece of paper, and it was [that was his group?] downtown. They teach salsa and cha-cha, you know, that stuff. JJ: [00:32:00] In 1954? GM: In ’54. JJ: Downtown? Okay. GM: So that was a Cuban school. So we took a few lessons, and then we usually stopped at State and Chicago avenue. And we got off there because he lived around there. And I stayed a while, then I’d go back up to Fullerton. JJ: They used to call there ‘La Clark.’ Or ‘la Clark’-- or, yeah. GM: Yeah, Clark. Clark State. And then there was a church right there, Holy Name Cathedral. JJ: Holy Name Cathedral, yeah. GM: And they said, “Hey, there is a social hour today. I think --” He said, “I think they dance over there.” JJ: So there were Puerto Ricans at Holy Name Cathedral? GM: Yeah. JJ: In 1954? 26 �GM: In the basement. JJ: In 1954, in the basement? GM: Nineteen fifty-four, that’s correct. That’s where they formed the Caballeros de San Juan Numero Dos. JJ: Numero dos was at Holy Name Cathedral? GM: Mm-hmm. And I went in there and there was no dancing. JJ: [00:33:00] Okay, so numero uno was on 63rd Street. GM: Yeah. JJ: And then numero dos was Holy Name Cathedral. And numero tres was St. Michael’s. GM: St. Michael, yeah. JJ: And was there one up here? (Spanish) [00:33:13] GM: Numero tres was St. Michael, yeah. I used to go there for dancing, too. JJ: Okay, but let’s -- Holy Name Cathedral. GM: Numero dos. JJ: So you went to that social hour in the basement. Okay. GM: Yeah. And from there on, and the guys say, “Hey, how ’bout --” JJ: Who was there when you went in there? Can you describe that? GM: Huh? JJ: When you went into the dance, who was -- were there a lot of Puerto Ricans there? GM: There was no dance at all. I thought it was dancing, but they were just teaching Bible classes and gathering. Then they invited us. 27 �JJ: But were there Spanish people there? GM: Yeah, all Puerto Ricans. JJ: All Puerto Ricans? GM: Yeah. JJ: Okay, at that time. Were they from that neighborhood, or where? Did they live in that area? GM: As I know, [00:34:00] most of them from that area, but I guess they were coming from -- because they had, here they had two separate -- they had San -- the host street was the church San Francisco, St. Francis. They were mostly Mexicans. JJ: Francis on the South -- on 12th Street and Halsted. GM: Yeah. Right. And we concentrate on the North Side, on the Holy Name Cathedral. JJ: Okay, so those were the two churches at that time. GM: Uh-huh. JJ: Yeah, I remember my mother used to go there. GM: Then we had St. Joseph, which was on Orleans. JJ: So those were two Spanish Masses? GM: Uh-huh. JJ: So there was one Spanish Mass at St. Francis. GM: At that time. JJ: And then one Spanish Mass at Holy Name Cathedral. Did Holy Name Cathedral have a Spanish Mass? GM: In the basement. 28 �JJ: In the basement, they didn’t have it in the big church? GM: Oh, no. They don’t nobody up there. JJ: What do you mean? GM: Oh, we had -- well, keep in with the Caballero de San Juan. [00:35:00] JJ: No, but I mean, can you explain? They didn’t want anybody in the big church? GM: Yeah. JJ: Who didn’t want? GM: That’s why the Puerto Ricans, they formed that Caballeros de San Juan. And from there on, Dos Hermanos. That’s still going. JJ: I mean, they didn’t want people in there, in the Holy Name Cathedral in the big church. I’m not trying to -- or the Puerto Ricans wanted their own church, how was it? GM: No, they don’t want us upstairs. JJ: Did they say that? GM: In the basement. JJ: They said that. GM: They had a fight to it. They had to pay ten cents a seat, if you wanted a seat. JJ: Oh, so there was a -- so a little discrimination there. GM: A little? A big one. JJ: A big one? GM: No, we’ve been coming a long way. JJ: Okay. So now the Puerto Ricans are downstairs and they’re organizing. GM: Uh-huh. Then later on -- 29 �JJ: And the Caballeros de San Juan -- well, what sort of -- what kind of things did the Caballeros do? At St. An -- [00:36:00] GM: What did they do, their activities? JJ: At Holy Name, at Holy Name. GM: Well, they hold meetings every Sunday after Mass, a committee to organize themselves. JJ: Do you remember some of the leaders at that time? GM: I know one of them was [Cheveres?] Miguel Cheveres. JJ: At Holy Name? GM: Uh-huh. No, Miguel Cheveres was -- no. JJ: At St. Michael’s, St. Michael’s. GM: St. Michael’s. JJ: Yeah, okay. And Cheveres and -- what was the other one -- [Rivera?], (inaudible). (Spanish) [00:36:39] And Jesus Rodriguez, what was he? GM: Jesus Rodriguez, like I say, he was -- he came from Los Hermanos Cheos. JJ: In Puerto Rico? GM: In Puerto Rico. And then he was at St. Michael’s. He held -- [00:37:00] a good preacher, he held retreats in Villamaria. JJ: Villamaria was where? GM: That was in Wisconsin. JJ: In Wisconsin? Okay. GM: And then he became a leader of Comite de Cardinal, which was at Wabash. JJ: Cardinals Committee, okay. 30 �GM: And they picked Father [Mer, M-E-R?] and -- JJ: Headley? GM: Father Headley. He’s still with us. JJ: Oh, he’s still with you? I’ve got to talk to him, I want to interview him. GM: I just, that’s what I -- JJ: I want to interview him. We’ll talk about that later because we’re doing your interview. GM: What was that? JJ: We’ll talk about it later because we’re doing your interview. GM: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, and he used to collect clothes at 13 South Wabash for the people that were poor. [00:38:00] They’re gonna get their jacket or whatever. Yeah, he was very, very good humanitarian, Jesus Rodriguez. JJ: Jesus Rodriguez, okay. GM: That’s what I – humanitarian. JJ: So, but Holy Name Cathedral, how many -- did you keep going there? GM: No, from there, we moved to Orleans, St. Joseph. JJ: St. Joseph, Okay. Why did you move from there to Orleans? GM: Because we were tired of being in the basement. Orleans was on the main floor. (laughs) JJ: Oh, Orleans gave you the regular chapel, the regular church. At St. Joseph’s. GM: Yeah, we have Father -- Father [Fidelis?]. The Spaniard, the father -- two Spanish, three guys, Father Domingo. Yeah, they used to serve us. St. Joseph. [00:39:00] Right back Cabrini-Green there. 31 �JJ: Right, right, Cabrini-Green, yeah. And so, did it have anything to do with the neighborhood changing at all? Maybe the neighborhood was changing or people moving out? GM: You know -- JJ: I mean, I don’t know. I’m asking. GM: Puerto Ricans move fast, keep moving and moving from community, keep going west, west. And I think I’ve been to all these churches. (laughs) JJ: Okay, so they kept moving west, the Puerto Ricans? GM: Yeah. JJ: So they started in downtown, but they kept moving west? GM: Uh-huh. Then they were here in St. Vincent. JJ: So they moved west, like on Chicago Avenue they moved west. GM: Yeah, we’re coming this way. JJ: So they went north and west. GM: Yeah. Yes. JJ: North and West. And they spread out like that. But they started around downtown? GM: Mm-hmm. They came to - JJ: But what about the South Side? What about the 63rd Street? GM: Never been [00:40:00] too much concentration of Puerto Ricans. The only people that I know -- JJ: But you had Council Number One there. Why did you have Council Number One there? 32 �GM: Yeah. JJ: But why? GM: I went there once. JJ: But there was never a real concentration there? GM: Never. Never. JJ: No, it’s just that -- It started there. GM: Yeah, some people they go there, in ’47, because their family brought them there and stayed there. JJ: But it never was a concentration like -- GM: No. JJ: Like on Clark Street? It wasn’t that big? GM: Clark and State, yeah. There were a few. Clark, and State and Superior. A few. But then, once they -- they got married. They were single guys. They got married. JJ: Most of them were single? GM: Mm-hmm. JJ: At Clark and that? GM: Yeah. JJ: So there was more like -- mostly singles and stuff. But there was the [Water Hotel?] and all that. GM: (laughs) Yeah. JJ: You knew about that? The Water Hotel, you never heard of it? GM: What was it? 33 �JJ: Water Hotel. Water Hotel. GM: [00:41:00] Water? JJ: Water. Hotel. GM: Yeah, I know. JJ: Superior and LaSalle. Catholic charities. GM: I know the first Spanish store was right there. Superior and -- JJ: And Clark. GM: Clark, yeah. Spanish-American. JJ: Spanish-American Food. GM: Yeah. JJ: Okay. That was the first Spanish store that you know of? GM: This side, that I can remember of. JJ: And who was the owner? Was it Mario Rivera? GM: Yeah, it was, yeah. Mario Rivera. JJ: But that was the first Spanish store? GM: Yeah, then they kept moving. JJ: And they kept moving -- GM: There was a lot of Spanish stores. Around here, Halsted, you know, but then, all of it’s gone. JJ: All of it’s gone. Okay, so you were on Orleans. So were you living over there? GM: No, I live always in Lakeview. JJ: You always lived in Lakeview? I was living on -- GM: Or by Lakeview, I mean, I mean, right here, in this area. [00:42:00] 34 �GM: I lived by 2308 Lincoln Avenue. JJ: Okay. 2308? GM: Yeah. Right in front of Children’s Memorial Hospital. JJ: Okay, but that’s Lincoln Park. That’s Lincoln Park. GM: Yeah. Lincoln Park. JJ: Okay. So right around there, you always lived around Lincoln Avenue? GM: Yeah. JJ: Because there were some hillbillies over by Lincoln and Sheffield. There was like a hillbilly neighborhood. GM: Uh-huh. JJ: And you said -- so you were always around Lincoln Avenue -- GM: Always. JJ: And Cisco -- there was a guy named [Cisco?]. The rebels, (Spanish) [00:42:35]. But you didn’t know that. GM: No. I heard probably. JJ: Yeah, you heard? Okay. GM: I know a guy that (Spanish) [00:42:44] Dracula. JJ: Dracula. GM: (laughs) I think he’s still around. JJ: Okay. So now you’re with the Caballeros of San Juan at St. Joseph, you had Father Fidelis. [00:43:00] What did they do there? What did the Caballeros do there? Was that a concilio? Was there a concil-- 35 �GM: They do. They had a group, too, that they house to house knocking doors, preaching the gospel, bringing people into the church. And they coordinate retiros, you know, retreats. JJ: What were the retreats like? Did you -- GM: They had their annual picnic at the St. Francis Boys’ Club. JJ: Where was that? GM: Down -- Wisconsin, I think. JJ: In Wisconsin? GM: Yeah, St. Francis Boys’ Club. Libertyville. JJ: Oh, Libertyville? GM: That’s Illinois. Libertyville. Yeah, that was an annual picnic. JJ: Of the Caballeros? GM: Yeah, music and everything. JJ: And when did that start? What year did that start? GM: I would say -- JJ: Was there one in ’54, 1954? GM: Between the ’60s [00:44:00] and ’70s. Yeah. JJ: Right. Between the ’60s and ’70s they were going to Libertyville. GM: Yeah. JJ: For an annual picnic and a lot of people showed up? GM: Yeah, in September. That was like a Labor Day weekend that they had the -- JJ: And a lot of people showed up. GM: (inaudible), yeah. 36 �JJ: Three hundred, four hundred? GM: I would say more. JJ: More than that? Okay, 500 or maybe 1,000? GM: Yeah. JJ: A lot of people in the -- GM: It was a big outing. JJ: But it was just one day or the whole weekend? GM: That was just one day. JJ: One day. GM: I don’t know if it was Saturday. Probably Saturday because Sunday is -- JJ: It was Libertyville, Illinois. Okay. So then from St. Joseph’s -- but St. Joseph participated in the picnic? GM: Yes, and St. Michael. They all -- all the churches. [00:45:00] It was not just one community; all the Spanish churches, they go on the picnic. JJ: Okay. And they went, did they rent a bus, or they’d go in cars? GM: No, every -- well, you know, some people -- they had buses. But I used to drive my own car. JJ: Okay. You’d drive your own car. So yeah, what kind of car did you have? GM: (laughs) Well. By then I was driving a ’56 DeSoto. JJ: Oh, I see, DeSoto. GM: Yeah. Automatic, push button. JJ: Oh, wow. GM: Yeah, by that time. ’56 DeSoto. 37 �JJ: So, okay, so now, when did you go to St. Michael’s? You said you went to St. Michael’s. So from St. Joseph, you went to St. Michael’s? GM: Mm-hmm. JJ: But you never lived in Old Town, though? GM: Old Town there? JJ: Yeah. GM: No. JJ: No, you never lived there. You always lived here. GM: I’d go there. JJ: But you always lived here, but you went there. GM: [00:46:00] Yeah. JJ: So that was like the center? GM: I always stayed here. JJ: But -- you stayed here, but that was like the center for Puerto Ricans? GM: Yeah. Mm-hmm, yeah, the gathering, for the -- JJ: So it started like Holy Name Cathedral, and then it went to St. Joseph’s. GM: Uh-huh. And then St. Michael. JJ: And then St. Michael’s. So you just followed the -- GM: Yeah, then St. Francis. JJ: -- followed the Caballeros. You just follow the Caballeros. GM: Yeah. Mm-hmm. JJ: Because it was the same group of people? GM: Yeah. 38 �JJ: So the Caballeros were -- when the people were moving, the Caballeros followed them. GM: Exactly. JJ: Because they -- first, they were in Holy Name Cathedral. Then they went to St. Joseph -- and if I’m wrong, let me know. Let me know. But then they went to St. Joseph, and then St. Michael’s became like a center? GM: Yes. JJ: Most central. I mean, it became a lot of activity? GM: Oh, yeah. Dances three days of -- in the weekend. JJ: Three days a week? At St. Michael’s? GM: There’s Friday night, Saturday night, and Sunday afternoon. JJ: [00:47:00] So you must have had a lot of good dancers. Because you were going to dance school. GM: (laughs) I went for a while. JJ: So there was good dancers? GM: Too tired. Making candy. Making candy -- JJ: I remember going there, but they had pretty good dancers. GM: Yeah, oh yeah, they do. JJ: So they really -- people got into dancing. GM: Oh, yeah. JJ: And I know that one of -- Jesus Rodriguez’s son, Jose -- GM: His kid, his son. JJ: He said Jose was a bad dancer. 39 �GM: He used to go down, pick up a hanky with his teeth. JJ: He used to do what? GM: He used to, you know, like split down. JJ: And pick up a handkerchief with his teeth? I remember him, because -- GM: I don’t know if he died or they had -- JJ: No, he’s still alive. He’s still alive, the other one died. GM: Oh, okay. (Spanish) [00:47:45] JJ: Yeah, (inaudible). But I remember, I remember he would take off his suit coat and have the girl hold his suit coat and flip her around. GM: He was good. JJ: He was a good dancer. GM: He’d put up on the shows then. JJ: He would put on a show, [00:48:00] that was Jose Rodriguez, yeah. That was Jesus Rodriguez’s son. GM: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay, so that was at St. Michael’s, at the dances there. (Spanish) [00:48:10]. GM: Yeah, they’d sell. JJ: So what did they sell, what kind of food did they sell? GM: I don’t remember. (Spanish) [00:48:19]. Empanadas, and pasteles. Yeah. JJ: So now did they have a -- okay, empanadas, pasteles, and what about who cooked it? GM: Huh? 40 �JJ: Who were the people that cooked it? Who cooked the food? (Spanish) [00:48:38]. GM: Oh, who cooked that? JJ: Yeah. GM: They had a group. (Spanish) [00:48:43] about two years ago, she passed away. Paula. Paula (Spanish) [00:48:58 00:49:25] She passed away. (Spanish) [00:49:30 - 00:49:59] GM: Yeah, [00:50:00] they’d hang out there. JJ: Where’s the Crown Liquor at? GM: Right here on Wrightwood -- Lincoln and Wrightwood. JJ: Lincoln and Wrightwood? They used to hang out there? GM: At that time they called them the Crown Liquor. JJ: The Crown Liquor group? GM: Yeah, they had a billiard and they had -- JJ: But they started on Clark Street. They started in Puerto Rico, but then they were on Clark Street. The Hacha Viejas, the Old Hatchets. GM: Oh yeah, they come from Hacha Vieja, from Puerto Rico. JJ: They came from Puerto Rico, but they were from Aguas Buenas. They came from Aguas Buenas. GM: Aguas Buenas? JJ: Yeah. I think, you know. (Spanish) [00:50:37]. GM: (Spanish) [00:50:38] JJ: So you knew them, you knew them? 41 �GM: Yeah, they played. They’d play pool there. JJ: They’d play pool. GM: Yeah, they -- JJ: So they didn’t really get into -- GM: The only -- JJ: Once in a while. GM: The only way I knew them, because [Leito?] -- (Spanish) [00:51:00 - 00:51:09] JJ: And you went to the Crown Liquor with them? GM: Yeah, I was already -- had children already. JJ: But I mean, you saw them there. Were they -- GM: Yeah, they’d play pool. JJ: Did they bother people? I heard they were a gang. Did they -- GM: No, because they were a bunch of -- if somebody come from the outside, and start trouble, it’s like, forget it. But they knew everybody knew each other. JJ: So they were just friendly. GM: Like I knew Leito, I was his friend. JJ: So everybody was friends. GM: My brother-in-law, that was Diana’s father. He knew all of them, too. JJ: But if somebody from the outside came and started trouble, they were in trouble. GM: Yeah, if anybody come and say the wrong thing, forget it. I never was there when there was trouble, but I was already -- I already had to stop going there. I know a guy, they cut him right here. 42 �JJ: They cut him? GM: [00:52:00] Yeah. JJ: One of the Hacha Viejas -- GM: (inaudible) JJ: -- cut somebody? GM: Oh, yeah. JJ: Cut somebody else? GM: Yeah. JJ: And that was over a girlfriend or a beer or what was that about? GM: No, I think a guy comes and says something to one of the guys that was there. The guy didn’t want to do it, so he (inaudible). You know, like say, “You don’t do that to my friend.” JJ: Oh, because the other guy came in, protected them, the friend. Okay. So they were like a gang. Were they a gang? GM: Actually, no. JJ: Not really? GM: No, because -- JJ: They just stuck together. GM: They just, by coincidence. JJ: But they had a name. GM: They don’t meet there. Because everybody was a working person. Just coming there for a beer and play a couple (inaudible). By accident, they are there, coincidence. From there, everybody just got their own place. 43 �JJ: Okay, but they call themselves the Old Hatchets. GM: They were just like a bunch of friends there. JJ: Bunch of friends, but they had a name. [00:53:00] They had a name. The Old Hatchet, Hacha Vieja. GM: Oh, they were the Hacha Vieja. JJ: Yeah, they had a name. GM: Yeah, they were the Hacha Vieja. JJ: But they were not a gang, you don’t look at them like a gang. GM: Well, they already old. JJ: They were old already? GM: Yeah, (Spanish) [00:53:13] Leito, [Jorge?]. He was the youngest one. (break in audio) JJ: -- other places did they go to? GM: That I don’t know. The only place I know them, but I heard a lot of stories. They used to hang around on Halsted. JJ: Halsted and what? GM: Halsted and Armitage, I think. JJ: Oh, they were on Halsted and Armitage, right around there? GM: Yeah. There was -- on Dickens, there was a hot dog. JJ: By the hot dog stand? GM: I think they were in front of that. JJ: Yeah, there was on Halsted -- yeah. But that was different groups. GM: Mm-hmm. 44 �JJ: On Halsted and Dickens. GM: Yeah. JJ: There was a lot of different groups here. GM: Yeah, corner, hot corner there. JJ: Yeah, hot corner. Yeah, and there. Okay, so now [00:54:00] you’re at St. Michael’s. Did you go to another of the Caballeros -- GM: Then I was married, I had kids. JJ: Okay. GM: Then I went to St. -- I went to St. Vincent. JJ: St. Vincent DePaul? GM: St. Vincent DePaul. JJ: Were the Caballeros of San Juan there? GM: No, I never, I didn’t join it anymore. JJ: Any one? GM: No. JJ: But were there other Spanish people there? At St. Vincent? GM: Oh, yeah, nineteen sixty -- nineteen sixty-five, sixty-six, the church was full of Puerto Ricans. JJ: Nineteen sixty-five, sixty-six? GM: Full of them. JJ: St. Vincent DePaul. GM: Yeah, but I -- since I was not involved into anything. JJ: Not Mexican, mainly Puerto Rican? 45 �GM: Mainly Puerto Rican. JJ: Okay. And I mean it was packed. GM: Sometimes you’d find no place to sit. JJ: The big church? GM: That’s the big church. JJ: This is the big church. There was not -- they didn’t, were not in the basement. GM: Huh? [00:55:00] Oh, no. JJ: They were in the big church. GM: As a matter of fact, years later, years after that, they were trying to sell stuff because -- from the church, like taking the old confession or something. I bought a door. Just to give $20. I still got it with me in the building. (laughs) I’ve still got it, it’s a [relic?] there. Old confessional. All solid oak, I cannot lift it now. I used to but I cannot lift it now. I was there about 25 years. JJ: At St. Vincent? GM: Yeah. JJ: At St. Vincent, you were there 25 years? GM: I got married there, at St. Vincent. JJ: So, but they didn’t have any activities, you said. GM: I never joined. JJ: You never joined. You just went there every Sunday. GM: They had Caballeros de Colón. JJ: Caballeros de Colón. GM: Yeah. Knights of Columbus. 46 �JJ: Knights of Columbus. GM: Yeah. JJ: They were not [00:56:00] Puerto Rican, or --? GM: Puertorriqueños. JJ: Oh, Knights of Columbus were Puerto Ricans. GM: Mm-hmm. And they yo también knocking doors. JJ: So this was not the Caballeros de San Juan, this was the Knights of Columbus. GM: No, the Knights of Columbu-- sí, Caballero Colón. JJ: Caballeros de Colón. GM: Yeah. JJ: So it was like a different branch? They were separate. GM: Yeah. But do the same thing. JJ: The same thing meaning what? They had activities and retreats? GM: Some of the Caballeros de San Juan became Caballeros de Colón. JJ: What about St. Teresa? You didn’t go to St. Teresa’s. GM: No, I never did. JJ: That was a different group. GM: I visited there a couple of times. JJ: But St. Vincent was packed with Puerto Ricans? GM: Yeah. St. Teresa also had a mass. JJ: Yeah, they had also at St. -- because people had kind of moved, they kept moving, stuff like that, you know? And St. Sebastian had something too, right? GM: Oh yeah, that was another big community. 47 �JJ: That was another big community. GM: I never went there, too. [00:57:00] I know a lot of people from there, though. JJ: So that was like the Near North Side Puerto Rican community. So would you say that -- so you lived in a few places in Lincoln Park, did you -- in 1953 were there a lot of Puerto Ricans in Lincoln Park? And when I say Lincoln Park, I mean, like from North Avenue to Diversey, from the park until maybe Racine. Were there a lot of Puerto Ricans living in that area? GM: No. JJ: In 1953? GM: You hardly see any. Then they start coming in. JJ: Then they start coming in. Okay. And then they start leaving again? GM: Yeah, well, people get old, people get married. They lose their jobs. Rent goes high. JJ: The rent goes high? GM: So you start moving west. JJ: Did it have more to do with the rent getting high [00:58:00] or just people getting old? GM: Other people were afraid of gangs. JJ: Okay, people were afraid of gangs? GM: Yeah. Like I have my house where I live now. I came from Wrigleyville, that’s where I lived, had a house over there. And I wanted to buy a house here to be closer to my job right here (inaudible), and the bank won’t give the loan. JJ: The bank won’t give you a loan? 48 �GM: No, they say that’s a red line. They say, I can get you bungalow west but not here. JJ: Who told you that, that it was a red line? GM: Huh? JJ: Who said it was a red line? GM: The banks at that time. JJ: They told you that it was a red line. GM: At that time. JJ: So meaning -- GM: Almost every house at a sign for sale. JJ: Why did they call it red line? GM: They say it because no people were -- they weren’t giving no loans. JJ: No loan for people. GM: For you to buy a house. JJ: [00:59:00] If you were Spanish, or no? GM: No, because they see that the neighborhood was going down. JJ: Okay, so they didn’t want to give you a new loan. GM: Yeah. JJ: Because the neighborhood was going down. GM: So the only way I got the house was because we were the only [to order?]. JJ: But you could afford the pay the loan. GM: Huh? JJ: But you could afford to pay the loan. 49 �GM: Oh, yeah, I had a job. I had a loan with the house that I had. JJ: It was a loan, it was a mortgage. You had a mortgage already. GM: But when I went over here, they told me no. JJ: And they said it was a red line. That means that they’re not going to give money. GM: That’s right. Risky line. JJ: So they called it a red line. GM: Risky line, red line; risky. Yeah. That was in 1970. JJ: But they gave loans to other people. GM: That I don’t know. Because that’s why people were selling, to get it out. JJ: Okay. That’s where they were selling? GM: And it was hard for them to -- I bought the house for $20,000. I took my chances. [01:00:00] Yeah. See, if I would have been another person, then I don’t believe in people. Because I believe in people. Once you know them, just say hi to them, become your friend and everything like that. But some people look at people, to them, just the way they look, they look criminal. You know what I mean? And I don’t believe in that. I told my wife, nobody’s going to get me out of here. I work right there. Because, in case something happened to you, I’ll be right here in a minute. I bought it. They did two things. Broke windows, stole my flowers. They bothered my kids. My boy was in the Boy Scouts. And just because they saw him with a uniform on, the kids on the street grabbed him and showed him a knife. I said, “It’s okay. I’ll take you to Boy Scouts myself.” You know. And I said, “That’s scary,” you know. And, [01:01:00] but I believe that if you work hard and work out with people, you make it. And everybody would do 50 �like I did, then it had to be -- live in the area. And I believe that any place that you go, just because you see different colors or different people, all you have to say is, make a new friend, giving welcome in the area, and there will be no problem. So -- I’m still there, I’m there. JJ: Okay. GM: The gangs were around. In the middle of the day, they were shooting over here. Yeah. Right in front of the factory, the candy factory. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of a guy, heard a guy by the name of [01:02:00] [Jughead?]. JJ: Jughead? Okay. GM: Yeah. They shot him right there. Right by the tracks. JJ: Was he Spanish or no? GM: No, they weren’t. JJ: American? GM: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. Okay, so there were different gangs, war gangs and Spanish gangs. GM: Exactly. JJ: And they were fighting each other. Okay, so when they started talking about changing the neighborhood, you wanted them. Because you were a homeowner. So you wanted change in the neighborhood. So you wanted them to come in in urban renewal and fix everything up? GM: Oh, yeah. I put money in my house. And then -- JJ: Because it was going to be worth more money. GM: Oh, yeah. Then the builders start building. 51 �JJ: Okay. So you actually -- it helped you up. GM: Mm-hmm. JJ: Because you owned the building. Okay. GM: Yeah, I know. JJ: What about your friends and your neighbors? [01:03:00] What about the friends and neighbors that were Spanish? How did you feel -- GM: Like I say, we Spanish, we’re changing all the time. All the time. Since we got a home to go to. Say, when you come from a country that -- you got only one-way ticket, you’ve gotta stick at it. But the day we don’t like to be here, we go over to Abuelita, stay with Abuelita. (laughs) Yeah, you know, we have that flexibility. Some people don’t have that flexibility, so they make it. And for a while it was scary, you know, but that’s (inaudible). And -- JJ: But do you think that they took advantage of some people, or no? GM: What was that? JJ: Like, do you think that some of the real estate people took advantage of some people that didn’t [01:04:00] know? Like Spanish people -- GM: I didn’t really bother to investigate. But, like I said -- JJ: I just wanted to know -- GM: Yeah. Almost every house was for sale over here on Racine, that’s why -- JJ: Were they Spanish people’s homes? GM: No. My sister, my sister lost -- sold her house, which is the house next -- oh, that one. See the house? JJ: Yeah, I see that. 52 �GM: It was not like that. That was Martha’s. Martha’s mom. JJ: Oh, okay. GM: Yeah. They sold it. But they made some money; he bought it for 17, sold it for 94. JJ: Oh, that’s pretty nice. That’s pretty good. So they were smart. GM: Yeah. JJ: They were smart. But now, a lot of our people didn’t have -- so that the smart way to do it, just to buy the house -- GM: Yeah. JJ: -- and then sell it for profit, [01:05:00] right? But a lot of our people rented, right? GM: They went to rent? JJ: They didn’t own the houses. GM: I don’t know much about -- I know my -- JJ: You know, mucho Puerto Rican, they were renters. GM: Yeah. JJ: They didn’t own houses. So how do you feel about that? GM: They keep, when the rent start coming up, then they keep moving west. JJ: But how did you feel? You didn’t feel anything? GM: That -- JJ: That they were being pushed out, or no? GM: No, because everybody thinks different. Okay, everybody thinks different. If you know, if I’m going to sell this property here with a fixed income that I have, and they want -- the real estate want $12,000 taxes a year, you know? Then you 53 �say, well, I’m going to go to further west. But I’m a fighter. [01:06:00] I believe that I’m a good place. I’m accessible to all the services that I need, like doctors, and the hospital, and shopping. I can do everything within walking distance. I say, well, I lose one side, but I gain the other side. And some people just because, for a little reason like that, they sell their property because some place else -- A lot of -- many reasons. Right now, only my sister and I are here. But at one time, were all of us. JJ: And it’s worth -- today it’s worth a lot of money. I mean, a property in this area. GM: Yeah, I have [paid for it?]. JJ: Now did they raise the -- because of the property value going up, your taxes go up too, right? GM: Yeah. JJ: How do you feel about that? GM: I don’t think it’s right. I don’t think it’s right because [01:07:00] that the government should take advantage of the opportunity that you have, that your property is worth more. It’s your home, and you make it your living quarter, you know, at least until the day that you die. Why, the government, you have to pay them for the property value? It’s not their property, for them to collect their tax. That’s the way I look at it. Yeah. JJ: Okay, what are you -- today, what are you doing? You said you’re still involved with the Caballeros? GM: What was that? JJ: Today, you said, you’re still involved with the Caballeros today? 54 �GM: Yeah, it is Los Hermanos. JJ: Los Hermanos. (Spanish) [01:07:51] GM: They come from Los Caballeros, Cursillistas, and the Los Hermanos. JJ: Now they’re called Los Hermanos. GM: Huh? JJ: They’re not called [01:08:00] the -- GM: They still have the Cursillista. Caballeros, no, they don’t have that anymore. JJ: They don’t have the Caballeros anymore? GM: But they have the Cursillistas and Los Hermanos. JJ: Okay, so today you still are in Los Hermanos. GM: We get together. Because Los Hermanos is a group. Cursillistas is a movement. JJ: Oh, Cursillistas is a movement. GM: Yeah, it’s a movement that’s all over Puerto Rico. In English, they have it too. (Spanish) [01:08:24] But Los Hermanos, only one. That’s the only group that is registered with the Archdiocese. JJ: And they came from the Caballeros. GM: Yeah. JJ: But they’re called Hermanos. GM: Hermanos, Hermanas, and la Familia de Dios. JJ: Oh, Hermanos, Hermanas -- GM: Yeah, one time when they were the Hermanos, but it was almost -- the Hermanas show up. So they included the -- 55 �JJ: The women. GM: The women. JJ: Because the women [01:09:00] always showed up. So who’s in charge, the women or the men? Who’s in charge, the women or the men? GM: Oh, they’re together. JJ: Oh, they’re all together. Okay, well, we’ll finish it up. GM: (laughs) Let me think a bit. (break in audio) JJ: Okay, so right now, today, you’re working with the Hermanos and the Hermanas. Out of what church? I mean, what church? GM: St. Hedwig. JJ: St. Hedwig? GM: Hedwig. It’s on Hoyne and Webster. JJ: Hoyne and Webster? GM: Mm-hmm. JJ: Is that -- and are there a lot of Hispanics there? GM: A group. A group is from all different communities. We just don’t belong to St. Hedwig, we just pay rent there to have our activities there. JJ: But it’s -- your headquarters are there, the main headquarters? GM: It’s right there. JJ: At St. Hedwig? GM: St. Hedwig. 56 �JJ: And who are the leaders there? [01:10:00] I mean, what are some of the names? GM: The leaders? Like, I am chairman of activities. JJ: You’re the chairman of activities? GM: I am, I think it’s seven. JJ: Who are some of the other leaders then? GM: And I go to St. Aloysius church. The president of the group, he comes from the 47th Street, Puerto Rican too. JJ: Puerto Rican? GM: Yeah, and the vice president, she comes from there. Secretary, come from near Humboldt Park. Sí. JJ: (Spanish) [01:10:38]? Oh, los Hermanos son puertorriqueño? GM: Sí, puertorriqueño. (Spanish) [01:10:44] dos Mexicanas y un Hondurena. JJ: But the majority are Puerto Rican? GM: Sí. Sí, are Puerto Rican. JJ: Because it came from the Caballeros de San Juan. GM: Uh-huh, yeah, yeah. JJ: Okay, and so what about -- you mentioned Father Headley. GM: [01:11:00] Father Headley. JJ: Does he work with you? GM: He’s retired already. JJ: He’s retired. 57 �GM: But when we need him to go, to give us some classes, he comes. Alternating Mondays. JJ: Because he did a lot of work with the Cardinals’ Committee, right? GM: Yeah, oh, yeah. Yeah, they went to Panama. Jesus Rodriguez también. (Spanish) [01:11:24] Panama. JJ: So the Caballeros de San Juan, they have something in Panama, or the Archdiocese? GM: No, they were independent. JJ: Independent. And then they went over there? GM: Yeah, well, Jesus was (inaudible). He’s in a wheelchair now. He’s retired. JJ: Okay. But they were -- I heard they were at St. Mary of the Woods Church, is there where they’re at? GM: Where at? JJ: Father Headley, St. Mary of the Woods? GM: Father Headley? JJ: Yeah. GM: When was that now? JJ: I read something on the internet, on their website. GM: Yeah? I know he’s in [01:12:00] a home, too. JJ: He’s in a home too? GM: Yeah. JJ: (inaudible) GM: Not feeling too good. Yeah, prostate. 58 �JJ: Okay, so you have Spanish mass here, or you have a headquarters there? You have a -- GM: Well, like I said, we go to our own community. We don’t go to mass over there. Which are -- the priest tell us, you guys go over there, and we don’t see too much of you guys. You’re going to have to, you know. JJ: Start going to mass. GM: Yeah. So we try to -- show us up, like when they have activities, go help, stuff like that. JJ: But you pay rent there? That’s your -- GM: Yeah, we pay. We pay all year round rent. Which is not much for a part in the basement. JJ: Oh, for the basement? GM: For the Bible classes. JJ: Bible classes? And you do activities too, you do activities. GM: Yeah, and then our -- GM: What kind of activities do you do? GM: Well, [01:13:00] we -- we’re supposed to visit the sick, visit the prison. The sick, the prison, the hospital, funerals. And [dos, tres things]. Now, some of the family and the members family are -- visit them. Novenas. JJ: Novenas? You do novenas? GM: Novenas. Yeah. JJ: Okay. So novenas? GM: Novenas. 59 �JJ: Okay. So when somebody dies, you do like a novena? GM: Oh, yeah. JJ: Because I remember my mother used to -- GM: Somebody dies, a member of the family, they called them. And we just start calling people, and we do the service, unless they already have someone. JJ: So you do it at somebody’s house, right? GM: Hmm? JJ: Do you do the novena at somebody’s house? GM: Yeah, the [01:14:00] member of the family. JJ: Member of the family. So it’s still the same as the Caballeros de San Juan? That’s what -- they used to do that. GM: Yeah. Same thing. JJ: But it’s called -- now it’s Hermanos. GM: We have about -- we have registered about, I think, fifty-some members, but average show up 20, 22. JJ: Now, what about the credit union? You’re not connected to that credit union, right? The Caballeros Credit Union? GM: Which one? JJ: The Caballeros de San Juan Credit Union, on Fullerton and -- GM: Oh, they still got the building there. JJ: They’ve still got it? GM: Still operating. JJ: But you’re not connected to it? 60 �GM: No, I never did, because -- (laughter) I want to deal with bigger banks. JJ: Okay. GM: Yeah. Yeah, there was so many -- they were so little. JJ: We’re gonna finish this up. What do you -- maybe we forgot something that you need, that you want to tell [01:15:00] people? GM: Like what? JJ: What do you think that’s important that you want to say? GM: Well, I would say that -- you know, to be a good citizen and stuff like that? Well, I would say to people is, then never expect for someone to come to you and do things for you. You should always go and get it yourself. How do you do that? You do that to -- respecting others, working, giving them a nice work day, to use the buses or your -- respect properties. And like for instance, I got [01:16:00] married. I had three children and became a grandfather; I had four grandchildren. I worked 46 years making candy to keep myself busy. (laughs) And I’ve been lucky enough to be around good people. They appreciated my work, my job. They paid me what they thought that I was worth. And I gave them -- but it was honest [love?]. And like I say, always -- when you see things that -- always try to advise the person and guide them to the right way. [01:17:00] And if you do things like that, respect your neighbors. And help as much as you can, always. Belonging to a group, a religious group, is a good thing because that’s what you really find people that -- true friends. And being busy is the best thing that you can do. Take away your mind from thinking bad. And I say, habits -- I used to smoke. I quit that a long time ago. And drink, now, 61 �my health doesn’t permit to have more than one drink a day. You know, it tastes like you want to have more, but if you want to stay healthy, listen to your doctors. Always listen to your kids [01:18:00] whenever they come to you. And help your wife as much as you can. JJ: (Spanish) [01:18:09] GM: Puertorriqueños? (Spanish) [01:18:22 -01:18:41] GM: I say, we are good people. (Spanish) [01:18:45 - 01:19:59] GM: I learned that lesson. (Spanish) [01:20:01 - 01:20:17] GM: You know, you don’t get nothing for nothing. You’ve gotta -- you want something, you work for it. You know, just believe in yourself. And besides that, believe in people. Believe in people. JJ: Okay. [01:20:35] (video repeats) END OF VIDEO FILE 62 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1bcc2945ecec385543eee25f3d5f1579.mp4 ee6366abc65c7d16f5e037d67ed58402 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Guillermo Martínez vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Guillermo Martínez nació en Puerto Rico. En los 1950s se mudó a chicago, en la parte más norte y oeste de Lincoln Park, cerca de Diversary Parkway y Ashland Avenue. Dueño de su propia casa y porque no vive cerca del lago, su vecindario no fue afectado por el aumento de impuestos y inspectores de construcción hasta más tarde que muchos de los otras partes de Lincoln Park. Señor Martínez describe sus memorias de Lincoln Park, incluyendo la jóvenes puertorriqueños en la aria, los tabernas, y grupos sociales. También habla sobre sus membrecía en los Hermanos De Dios y su deseo de vender su casa y retirarse a Puerto Rico. Hasta por dentro de la comunidad Puertorriqueña de Lincoln Park, había discusiones de los efectos de la nueva construcción. Señor Martínez suministra una idea de las diferentes perspectivas en la comunidad Puertorriqueña de Lincoln Park que él piensa que no fueron eliminado, sino hicieron la decisión de cambiarlas. Como alguien quien beneficio financiamiento por cambio del vecindario, el describe los cambios positivos que vio por la reconstrucción y los efectos de una duración larga tiene en Lincoln Park y Chicago. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Idioma español--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Martinez_Guillermo Title A name given to the resource Guillermo Martínez video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Martínez, Guillermo Description An account of the resource Guillermo Martínez was born in Puerto Rico. In the 1950s he moved to Chicago, settling in the most northern and western edge of Lincoln Park, near Diversey Parkway and Ashland Avenue. Mr. Martínez describes his memories of Lincoln Park, including the Puerto Rican youth groups of the area, local taverns, and social clubs. Even within the Puerto Rican community of Lincoln Park, there was debate about the effects of urban renewal. Mr. Martínez provides insight into these differing perspectives, including his belief that the Puerto Rican community of Lincoln Park was not forced out, but moved by choice. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Spanish language--Personal narratives Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-02 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/b94b02533027019a3276b8062be578a4.pdf a6658fd69b552b9b8e598eb1ef352c5e PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Father Leo T. Mahon Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 8/21/2012 Biography and Description In the early 1950s, Monsignor Leo T. Mahon, an Irish American priest who was then head of the Hispanic apostolate in the Chicago Diocese, organized the Caballeros de San Juan (Knights of San Juan), as a religiously inspired community action group among Puerto Rican men. The group was tremendously successful and soon became a model that other dioceses strove to replicate around the country, including in New York, Philadelphia, and Boston. Monsignor Mahon developed the program based on the idea that religious development takes place best where social stability and self-confidence prevail. The Caballeros provided both for Puerto Rican immigrants in Chicago.In 1963 Msgr. Mahon was sent by the Archdiocese of Chicago to San Miguelitos, Panama. The mission was an experimental parish, based on the practice of liberation theology, organized by the Archdiocese of Chicago in 1962. He remained there until 1975. By 1980, when the project was terminated by the Archdiocese amidst controversy involving questions of theology and liturgy, the mission had assumed control over 53 parishes and base communities. Msgr. Mahon wrote about this experience in his autobiography, Fire Under My Feet: A Memoir of God’s Power in Panama (2007). After returning from Panama, Msgr. Mahon became pastor at St. Victor in Calumet, Indiana. During his tenure at St. Victor, he introduced Jubilee Retreat weekends, College of Ministry, Young Adult Ministry, and Operation Summer, an innovative program for teens in the parish and surrounding area. He also instituted a range of social service projects, instituted an �overhaul of the church sanctuary, as well as a Lay Diaconate program that brought more than 12 men of the parish into direct service within the church. In 1987, Msgr. Mahon left St. Victor and returned to Chicago, where he currently lives in St. Mary’s of the Woods Faith Community. He was made a bishop in 2010. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, so Father Mahon you said is suffering from what? M: What? JJ: Father Mahone is suffering from what? M: He has a neuropathy which is -- it’s like -- it would be something like ALS but not quite. It’s not the same thing. It’s more it kills the nerve or one at a time and that shuts down the muscles, too. But he’s gradually losing all the movement in his body. I came here 10 years ago. He was still driving his car but he can’t drive it now. And this young man is, the, José, this person who is taking care of him, completely wonderful. Wonderful caregiver. And there’s a -- this young woman is a nurse who’s visiting. But that’s -- Leo just has to be careful. (break in video) LEO MAHON: And after two or three evenings, I discovered that [00:01:00] it was going right over their heads. There was no reaction, no excitement. And I thought to myself of the gospel. “What doesn’t produce them excites them, excites some enthusiasm.” And this is really the good news. So we began all over again and I asked him questions. JJ: Do you remember what year this was that the Puerto Ricans came to you or...? LM: Yes, 1950, early 1950s. JJ: Early 1950? And then went to 63rd Street. Is that...? LM: Yeah. 1 �JJ: Okay. And so [00:02:00] the people you went to did not -- they said they were there to treat the elite? Is that the words that you’re saying? LM: Yeah. JJ: And you had to do it yourself? LM: Yeah. JJ: Okay. And then what happened after that, Father? LM: Well, we built up a system when I would explain some of the articles of faith and if it struck them as being good, exciting, they would tell me. If they say, “No, that won’t work at all,” then I’d skip that. And so a whole [00:03:00] series of instructions began to evolve and it was taken down by a nun and actually published in the book. And then we had an office at 13th and Wabash and our men are all over the communities. The Caballeros were establishing communities where in the 12 different places where Puerto Ricans were living. JJ: Twelve different churches? LM: Yeah. [00:04:00] Well, sometimes they were in church and sometimes, they weren’t. JJ: So sometimes they were like homes or storefronts or...? LM: Yeah. Yes. They always managed to get a clubhouse where they could read. Sometimes, if they were welcome into a church but they weren’t always. There was a prejudice against many Catholic parishes. JJ: You said there was some prejudice, Father? LM: Oh, yes. JJ: Against the Puerto Ricans or...? 2 �LM: Yes. JJ: Okay. But they were able to just work through that or...? LM: In many cases, yes. JJ: Okay. Okay. But in the beginning -- okay, we did talk about the [00:05:00] -that’s in the -- I got a book. I just want to make sure it’s okay. There’s a couple pictures in there. I want to make sure it’s okay by you if I can use those pictures. LM: All right? JJ: Is it okay? LM: Yes. JJ: Okay. I just want to make sure. Okay, any -- do you remember at all like the parade, the first parade that they had or...? LM: Yeah. JJ: In 1953, I believe? LM: Yeah. JJ: What do you remember about that? LM: Well, we brought a lamb into the mayor’s office. JJ: Into (laughs) mayor Daley’s office at that time? LM: Yeah. And -- JJ: What did the lamb represent? LM: Well, the lamb -- JJ: I know it’s a symbol of Puerto Rico, too, the lamb. LM: Yeah. JJ: Is that why they brought that or...? 3 �LM: [00:06:00] Yeah. JJ: And also it’s -- has to do with the church, I think. LM: Yeah. JJ: Okay. LM: And so the mayor responded by allowing the parade. JJ: By allowing the parade to take place? LM: Yeah. JJ: Okay. And this was in 1953 so it’s not -- and do you remember where it was? I think -- was it the Holy Name Cathedral or...? LM: No, I don’t remember. JJ: All right. You don’t remember. Okay, okay. Oh no, well you -- but you did go to - you were in downtown with the mayor so that’s what you recall. LM: Yeah. JJ: Okay. Anything else that you want to -- that you think we should -- [00:07:00] that you want -- that’s important of that time? With the Caballeros that you feel we should take -- of your work because you did a lot of work. LM: Yeah, we formed the Hermanos but I think Father [Don?] told you about that. JJ: Yeah, we were talking about the Hermano. LM: Yeah. JJ: And you also went to Panama, too. LM: Yes. JJ: We were talking about that. LM: Yes, when Cardinal Meyer came in after Cardinal Stritch died. 4 �JJ: That’s Cardinal Strich, okay. LM: He was very interested in the work and he -- at first, he -- [00:08:00] there was a call from the Pope to send help, especially personnel from the established churches in the world, in the Western World. You know, in Europe and in North America, Canada. And at first he said you just knew. At first he said, “I have too much on my plate. I can’t do that.” So we waited and then he went to the council as one of the Council Fathers, second Vatican, [00:09:00] and he came back a very changed man. And he said -- JJ: Can you hold on one second, Father? I’m sorry. (break in video) LM: -- cardinal said. JJ: But the cardinal -- coming back, you were telling me -- okay, we’ll start. LM: From Rome. And saying that even though he thought we needed priests here, there was more need in other places. And that we should sacrifice and send them to Latin America. And then he asked me where I thought we should go and I said, “Well, either [00:10:00] Panama or Puerto Rico itself.” JJ: And why did you choose those locations? LM: Why? JJ: Yeah, why did you choose them? LM: Well, both were close to the Puerto Rican community. Well, the -- Puerto Rico was. And Panama, there was a new, young bishop there who we thought would be very welcoming. And then he came. I said, “Well, you’ll have to see the cardinal. [00:11:00] I can’t begin any mission until you see him.” And the 5 �cardinal asked him to come up and talk to him. And he agreed to send priests there, set three priests aside. And the cardinal had asked me for a plan. And one plan was to just send the priest down to serve in the diocese. The second was to join [Mary Null?] or the [St. James Society?]. And the fourth was to begin [00:12:00] an experimental parish. To try different methods of missionary work especially explaining the way to people. First of all, to accept their own dignity and worth. And then to, as part of the message, that the human being, especially the believer, is a masterpiece of God’s creation and they shouldn’t think -because they always [00:13:00] had this notion of the upper class telling them what to do. And so that was one of their enslavements as you might call it. The other one was their attitude towards women which was really, really poor. Their women were things. And the most sacred things, but never persons. And it was only when we broke that by retreats and [00:14:00] that they decided that they had to include the women with them in a whole new life, a whole new way of doing things. JJ: You started at that time? LM: Yeah. JJ: So with a lot of movement, a lot of people involved, getting involved? Is that what took place or how did -- did you -- or how did you see the developments taking place? LM: Well, first of all, we had no right, direct participation with the men. [00:15:00] There was a division. The women went to church and handled all the church affairs and the men didn’t go at all, didn’t participate. So when the women met 6 �with me, I said to them -- they asked what I -- they could do. And I said, “Could you give me a year or two to work with the men only?” And they were quite amused and they said good luck. But it turned out to be a very [00:16:00] good thing. And the men especially, they had notions of virgin that were very, very anti-clerical. And it was only when we brought some six-packs of beer and met with some of the leaders in the community -- we thought were leaders or could be -- and they asked what we were there for. And I said, “What do you think we’re here for?” “Oh, we’re here -- you’re here to take the kids to catechism.” I said, “I have no intention [00:17:00] of taking kids to that catechism.” “Oh, well, then you’re going to build a church.” I said, “Well, if I build a church, would you come to mass?” “No.” “Well, I’m not going to do it.” “Well, what are you going to do?” I said, “Start a revolution.” And that’s when they got interested. The word meant a lot to them. JJ: The word revolution meant a lot to them? LM: Yeah. Not a -- they didn’t think of it as an arms revolution. JJ: Okay. Spiritual. LM: A spiritual revolution. A whole change of order for them in the social scheme of things. And that [00:18:00] began the movement in Puerto Rico. Father Don -- JJ: You mean in Panama. LM: Panama, yeah. Father Don probably explained more of that to you. JJ: He explained it, he explained it. What about your work here before you left there? I know you left early with the Caballeros and that. But what was some of the work that you were doing then? 7 �LM: I thought I explained that. JJ: Oh, you did. Okay, okay, you did. Okay, but you came back here and did you do any work before you were being sick or...? LM: When I came back? JJ: Yes. LM: (laughs) That’s an interesting story. I was [00:19:00] really overworked and overstressed. I was the vicar episcopal for the whole east part of Panama which meant that I -- or had almost the powers of a bishop to organize communities. And I did that with lay people, of course. But it provoked a lot of problems with the government and with the church hierarchy. So finally, I was tired and I had fought with the government especially. [00:20:00] But they were -- both authorities were glad to see me go. So I wired Cardinal Cody who was in office by that time that I was coming home. And he wired back, “Due to peculiar circumstances here in Chicago, you may not return.” And I answer once again, “I belong in Chicago more than you do and I’m coming home as of this date.” So then when I met with him, it took [00:21:00] two years to get any notice from him at all. And finally, I met with him and he said, “Well, you did a good job.” And I said, “That’s the first kind word you have said about me or about the work in Panama.” “Well, it’s true,” he said. “Now,” he said, “I want you -- you may have any parish in the diocese.” That’s 400 parishes. “You may have any one. Except where there are Spanish-speaking or Blacks.” And I said, “Well, [00:22:00] if that’s your wish, I’ll obey it but I’d like to know the reason.” And he said, “If I -- if you go to one of those parishes, that’ll be your movement to make 8 �you a bishop. And I’m not naming you a bishop. Never, never, never.” So there was a parish open in working people in a steel mill district in Calumet City. And I took that one. I had a wonderful experience. The same methods worked with them. JJ: But this was not Black or Spanish or [00:23:00] Latino. LM: No, no, they were almost all -- JJ: They were all what? LM: Slavik. JJ: Slavik? Okay. LM: Yeah. Mostly Polish. JJ: Mostly Polish, okay. LM: Working in the mills and making very good money. JJ: Okay. LM: And then the steel mill fell apart as you know. JJ: I don’t know. It fell apart? I’m not -- LM: Yeah. JJ: You mean the industry fell apart. LM: Yeah. JJ: Okay. So how long were you there, Father, in Calumet? LM: I was there 12 years. JJ: Twelve years, okay. LM: And then I decided -- it might’ve been 11, but anyway. I decided that [00:24:00] I had done my job there. 9 �JJ: But yeah, before that, Father, you said you had a wonderful experience there. Can you describe what you mean or...? LM: Well, there was a convent there that was occupied by five or six nuns of an order that would -- but they weren’t working in the parish at all. So I asked them to leave and we ended up with a beautiful building, 16 rooms and a chapel. And we put two beds in each room so we could put 32 men or women [00:25:00] on retreat what we called a cursillo. And they were different cursillo from the one that came from Spain. And it ended up with a -- all of them sitting around a table and celebrating the Eucharist together. Even it was an upper-room experience. And they were tremendously moved. And they became the heart of the movement and then we did that, I don’t know, maybe [00:26:00] 30 more of those retreats. So a good num- -- a good percentage of the parish had been instructed in that manner. And then the liturgies changed with music and with preaching and participation of the lady. So people began to come from other parishes and from Indiana which was close. So much so that the bishop of Gary complained to our bishop in Chicago [00:27:00] that we were stealing his people. Which amused the cardinal very much, the archbishop of Chicago. JJ: It amused the archbishop, you said? LM: Yeah. He had no intention. He just said to the bishop there, “Maybe you ought to do what they’re doing if it’s that successful.” So then, I took a year of sabbatical after I left there and I wrote my memoir part of which were published. It amounted to an autobiography [00:28:00] but the publisher said it’s a very good book. But unless you have a name like Eisenhower or something like that, 10 �nobody would buy that book. We can’t sell it. So it was never published and I still have it in manuscript. But a friend of mine showed it to a professor at Columbia College and she said, “Oh, my. We’ve got to publish this.” And I explained the difficulties and she tried with her contacts [00:29:00] to get it published. So no go. So then she took some material out of there, especially the Panamanian experience, and wrote a book or edited the book. It was my writing. JJ: Is that Nancy? Is that that book that I have or...? LM: Yes. JJ: Okay. All right. LM: Yeah, that’s the one. Fire Under My Feet. JJ: Right, right, that’s the one. LM: Yeah. Okay? JJ: Okay. I appreciate very much, Father. LM: You’re very welcome. END OF VIDEO FILE 11 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/6bd60ea9e993985bb8a64cc069a3a3c8.mp4 254a5c19779f31e4247e69d231cffa3e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Monsignor Leo T. Mahon vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Narrativas personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Iglesia Católica. Arquidiócesis de Chicago (Ill.) Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Mahon_Leo Title A name given to the resource Monsignor Leo T. Mahon interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Mahon, Leo Description An account of the resource In the early 1950s, Monsignor Leo T. Mahon, an Irish American priest who was then head of the Hispanic apostolate in the Chicago Diocese, organized the (Knights of San Juan), as a religiously inspired community action group among Puerto Rican men. The group was tremendously successful and soon became a model that other dioceses strove to replicate around the country, including in New York, Philadelphia, and Boston. Monsignor Mahon developed the program based on the idea that religious development takes place best where social stability and self-confidence prevail. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Catholic Church. Archdiocese of Chicago (Ill.) Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-08-21 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/8edce519d58f596b13d9af8a31891029.pdf 72060f3a0eee70684a64cf29dc42f6c2 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Ricardo Lugo Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 12/14/2012 Runtime: 01:36:06 Biography and Description Oral history of Ricardo Lugo, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on December 14, 2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: All right, if you can, give me your name again. RICARDO LUGO: Sure. Ricardo Lugo. And do you want me to look at you or the camera, how does it... JJ: Yeah, no, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). Go ahead and look at me. RL: Okay, okay. JJ: (inaudible) Okay. Ricardo? RL: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay, Ricardo, if you can give me your full name, when -- you know, when you were born, and where you were born. RL: Okay. My name’s Ricardo Lugo, I was born in Chicago, in 1962. And the Cabrini-Green neighborhood’s where I was raised. JJ: Okay. And where in Cabrini-Green? RL: It was actually at 1230 North Larrabee, number 303. I remember that. JJ: Okay, at that time, and so, who were your parents (inaudible), and what were their names? RL: [Luis?] Lugo and [Marta?] Lugo. They came from Puerto Rico in the ’50s. JJ: Do you know what year, or (inaudible)? RL: I don’t know the exact year, but I remember the story is that they did come with three of my brothers, the first three that were born, and then they came here [00:01:00] and had nine more after that. JJ: Okay, over here, okay. 1 �RL: In Chicago. JJ: But it was, maybe the first part of the ’50s, mid ’50s, late ’50s, or -- you don’t know. Okay. RL: Yeah, I’m not sure. JJ: Where did they come from, what town? RL: Oh, Yauco, Puerto Rico. JJ: Yauco? RL: Yeah. JJ: Okay. Are they there now, or...? RL: My dad retired to Puerto Rico, to Yauco, Puerto Rico, and my mom also stayed with him for many years out there, you know, when he retired. He was a laborer, worked in the factory his whole life, until he retired. JJ: Do you know what factory, or...? RL: It was called Humboldt Manufacturing. JJ: Okay. RL: And ironically, they were located in Humboldt Park area. And so, he would go from Cabrini-Green, drive to work, and this factory in the Humboldt Park area, it was near Armitage and Whipple. Sort of in that area. And for that reason, he happened to see a house that we eventually moved to in Humboldt Park, 1920 North Humboldt. JJ: 1920 North Humboldt? RL: Mm-hmm. JJ: Okay. So you moved -- what year did you move, do you know? 2 �RL: [00:02:00] It was about ’70, 70-71. JJ: Okay. RL: Yeah. JJ: So other than that, you lived in Cabrini-Green (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? RL: Yeah, from 1962 till 71, I lived in Cabrini-Green myself. And, you know, my whole family. JJ: Yeah, and your whole family. Okay, now what about your siblings, what are some of their names? RL: Okay, I have 12 siblings, 8 boys and 4 girls. I’ll start with the boys, and from the oldest down to the youngest, there’s [Antonio?] Lugo, [Raul?] Lugo, [Wilfredo?] Lugo, [William?] Lugo, [David?] Lugo, [Orlando?] Lugo, myself, and my younger brother, [Daniel?] Lugo. As for the women, there’s [Alicia?] Lugo, I don’t have to say their last name but [Lucy?] -- [Lucia?], [Elena?], and Teresa. JJ: And Teresa? Okay. RL: Yeah, yeah. JJ: Okay... Now, they all live in the same house all the time till 1971, or...? RL: I’m trying to thi-- When we moved to Humboldt Park, I think the -- [00:03:00] at least the -- the top three -- the three older brothers, I think, had already moved out at that point. So there may have been about, at least nine of us living in Humboldt Park -- in the house we moved into in Humboldt, 1920 North Humboldt. JJ: But they had moved out before moving to Humboldt Park? RL: Well, we lived in Cabrini. JJ: Okay. 3 �RL: And I’m assuming most of us, maybe except for a brother or two, may have already moved out as I was growing up in ’62 in Cabrini. And I think at that point we only had maybe a three-bedroom apartment. It was public housing. JJ: So where did people sleep, then? RL: Bunk beds were big. I know I slept with my little brother all the way through the house in Humboldt Park. I mean, we still had bunk beds, and I slept with my little brother. JJ: And were there other Puerto Ricans near where you were at, or...? RL: In Cabrini? In Cabrini-Green? Yeah, as a matter of fact, there was one particular family, they grew up with us, and then when we moved to Humboldt Park, they [00:04:00] lived in Cabrini. And so we were great friends. Then we moved to Humboldt Park, they actually lived there -- JJ: [Do you know?] the name of the family? RL: Yeah, the [Perez?] family. JJ: The Perez family? RL: [Clotilde?] Perez was his name. JJ: Okay. RL: And [George?] Perez was one of the sons, and [Gladys?] Perez, [Lolly?] Perez, her name. So it was the Perez family. And the father, Clotilde, he worked at the Palmer House. He still does, even now, like, I don’t know, almost 40 years later. JJ: He’s still working at the Palmer House? RL: Yeah. And he got jobs for my brothers, his sons, at the Palmer House. JJ: Okay. 4 �RL: (inaudible) JJ: So was the Palmer House a place where a lot of people worked at that time, or...? RL: Lotta Puerto Ricans. The Palmer House hotel was a Hilton hotel, it’s downtown, still there, the Palmer House hotel. And a lot of Puerto Ricans worked in the main kitchen, from when I got there, as a teenager. JJ: So you worked there, too. RL: Oh yeah, I worked there as a freshman in high school. And it helped pay for my education, actually. Well, a sophomore in high school, I [00:05:00] think it was. But it helped pay for my education. Yeah. JJ: Okay. What high school was that? RL: Holy Trinity. But actually, I studied at Prosser Vocational High School, and Prosser Vocational High School is located by Grand and Long, near Central Avenue. JJ: Okay. RL: Yeah, on the west side of Chicago. And at that time, when I was there, 1980, that was where, pretty much, for the most part, most of the white gangs were there. As we know, Clemente High School had Latino gangs and things like that, but -- and that was one of the worst schools, Clemente, of course, but Prosser -- JJ: So who was in the gangs, that you (inaudible)? RL: The C-Notes, the Jousters, the Gaylords, Simon City Royals. I mean, like, every white gang in the city who was there. I remember the first day I went there as a freshman, my first day, September, I have a sweater on, you know, no big deal, 5 �right, it’s a little cool outside, with a belt on it. And I’m just standing outside waiting for the bell to ring [00:06:00] so I could start my first day as a high school kid. And a white guy came and grabbed me by my sweater, said, “C’mere.” So I followed him, I mean, he had me, of course, so I had to follow him. And he just took me a short distance and he showed me where my belt was. And, you know, the point was, I knew, had those senses about me, I mean, I grew up in Humboldt Park, I knew how to defend myself and so on, growing up in Humboldt Park. But I also knew I was in territory that was all white gang. And they were -I’m sure they were salivating for, you know, for all of them to jump me if I tried to make a move, so, of course. You know, but that was just the beginning of my high school career. JJ: And this was on what streets? RL: On Long. Long Avenue. JJ: You said Long -- Long Avenue. RL: Yeah. JJ: So that’s pretty west. RL: Yeah, that’s west, almost towards Central. JJ: Okay, but, by North Avenue or by Armitage, or...? RL: It’s on Grand, it’s Armitage, pero, then Armitage turns into Grand. JJ: Exactly. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Yeah. RL: As you go west. Yeah. They’re still [00:07:00] there, they’re still there. JJ: You were just there because of the high school, so, because you were living more east of that. 6 �RL: Yeah, I mean, I could have gone to Clemente, but I wanted to go to a decent school, and that was a decent school in the area. Frankly, I know I wanted to go to Weber, which was a couple blocks away from Prosser, but, you know, Catholic school, but I couldn’t afford it, we couldn’t afford it, my family couldn’t afford it, so I went to public school. JJ: Okay, so, ’cause you mentioned there were some gangs in Clemente. RL: Oh yeah, ’cause, you know, growing up in Humboldt Park, I knew the Clemente gang issue too. JJ: So were you in the gang [at all?]? RL: No. Most of the guys in my neighborhood, I mean, they were in gangs, most of the guys in my neighborhood were in gangs. But because of my parents, obviously, I think, it was because of my -- there was a strong foundation from my parents, who were religious and strict. They kept me in, my brother -- none of my siblings were in gangs, per se. You know, and when I say “gangs,” ’cause I know my oldest brother, he was a Young Lord. But the Young Lords were a social organization, not what we consider gangs, you know, [00:08:00] nowadays, where they’re killing each other and things like that. And so, when I grew up, there were gangs, and there were the Ghetto Boys Organization, the Yates Boys Organization, Latin Kings, in my neighborhood, I’m just talking about my specific area. And I knew ’em all, they were all my friends, so I knew ’em all. And... JJ: But you didn’t get into that? RL: No, I used to, you know, hang out with them and things like that. JJ: And your family, the other brothers didn’t get into it? 7 �RL: No, no. None of us were in gangs. JJ: [As you were saying?]. RL: Yeah, I think, growing up with a family of seven brothers, you know, eight with me, it was almost like, you’re supposed to take care of yourself. We didn’t need a gang to protect you. JJ: “We have a group here.” RL: Huh? JJ: Were you saying “We have a group here,” is that what you’re saying? RL: Right, right, we have our own group. I mean, you know, it was almost like, the other brothers would think you’re a punk. JJ: [It wasn’t a?] gang, but you kind of (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). RL: Yeah, it was almost an unwritten rule that you, you know, you should take care, you know, should be able to take care of yourself. JJ: Okay. RL: I mean, I never felt like I could even go to my brothers and ask for [00:09:00] help, because I always felt like, “Hey,” you know, “I had to deal with it,” you know. JJ: Yourself. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) RL: Myself, right. And I didn’t need a gang, I didn’t need my brothers. JJ: And you didn’t believe in none of that gang philosophy type of...? RL: I mean, I understood it, ’cause I grew up in that environment, so I could see, you know, and understand it. But, in terms of believing in it, I mean, I wish, you know, all of us had opportunity to go to Weber High School, or, you know, places 8 �that other kids had opportunity. A lot of us just didn’t have the opportunity, myself included. Again, I went to Prosser. And my first two years -JJ: What was Prosser? (inaudible) RL: Prosser High School. JJ: Okay. RL: My first two years at that s-- JJ: Where is that located? I’m sorry. RL: I’m sorry? JJ: Where’s that located? RL: Over on the west side, by Grand and Long Street. JJ: Okay, the same thing. The same thing. RL: And remember, I started there, the gangs, white gangs. And I got D’s and F’s my first two years. Okay, D’s and F’s. That’s all I got. Why? Because it was more of a issue of survival than going there for an education. JJ: What do you mean? In [00:10:00] that area? RL: Well, yeah, with the gang members, you know. You know, like -- JJ: Like, you were just trying to figure out how to get to school [and back?]. RL: Right, exactly, exactly. ’Cause even within the school setting, inside the building, there was issues. And there was only a handful of us Latinos. You know, Dominicans, Cubans, Mexicans, myself, Puerto Rican. There was only a handful of us, maybe seven, eight guys and stuff, and other Latinas. But the white gangs would try to pick on us because they just assume, you know, because at that time Latino gangs were big, so, you know, and they were the enemies, so. Not 9 �that I was in a gang, but still, you’re Latino, teenagers, you know how they, machismo, from the white perspective, they think, “Oh,” you know, “good, we got some Latin guys and teenagers in here, so let’s pick on them.” JJ: So even though you weren’t in a gang, they were picking on you. RL: Yeah... JJ: Did they know that you weren’t in a gang? RL: I mean, but pi-- when I say picking on me, I mean they didn’t confront me, you know, by touching me, because that would [00:11:00] equal a fight again, but it was there, the tension was there. JJ: The tension, you felt it. (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) RL: Right, right, a tension was there, and you had, you know, smart enough to watch your back, and, yeah. But it wasn’t -- I mean, school wasn’t the main focus. JJ: Your focus at that time. RL: At that time for me, and I think Chicago public school system. It didn’t really help a lot of inner-city kids, you know, not today, not yesterday. I mean, the story seems to be the same anyway. JJ: Okay. What about grammar school? Did they ever help you in any way? RL: Yeah, it helped me -- JJ: What school did you [attend there?]? RL: Well, in Cabrini-Green, I went to Schiller School. And actually, I started with Head Start. And within our building, on the first floor, the ground floor, there was a classroom, for Head Start. I’m assuming I was four years old at the time -- JJ: Now you’re talking about -- how tall is that building (inaudible)? 10 �RL: 16 floors. JJ: 16 floors. So a downstairs, on the first floor. RL: Yeah, the ground level. The sidewalk level. And [00:12:00] when you bring up that six-- and, you know, there was 16 floors, and you could go to the top floor, and you could look over, and you see the lake. You know, just briefly, you see the blue outline. So you could actually see the l-- JJ: So that was pretty -- did you spend a lot of time up there, or...? RL: No, no, no, no, no, no. That building was dangerous too, you know, and plus I was a little kid -- JJ: What do you mean dangerous? What do you mean? RL: Luckily for me, I was a little kid, and so, when I say little kid, from the age of zero to eight, nine years old is when I grew up there. So I was able to go to the playground and things like that. But once you became a teenager and things like that, then, you know, other kids will start picking on you. For example, my brothers, they were robbed, you know, like, if you go walking down the street to the store, you know, “Hey, give me your money,” you know, that type of things. I mean, they had a -- what was it, Blackstone Rangers, I think at that time? JJ: Clybourn Corrupters, maybe. RL: Yeah, by Cooley High School, Cooley High School [at that park?]. JJ: Oh, Cooley High School was right there. RL: Yeah, and the Black gangs were around there, and, you know, that [00:13:00] area. Cabrini, it was the Black gangs. JJ: Right. 11 �RL: So, yeah, so there was a few of those. And, you know, they had to leave the building to go to high school, farther away. See, I was within the building, studying, so that helped. I mean, even my grade school, when I started first, second grade, wasn’t that far away. A block away, you could see it out the window. Yeah. So it wasn’t too bad, for a kid growing up there, but it was more dangerous for a teenager. You know. ’Cause again, you’re, you know, we’re considered white in Cabrini-Green, even though we’re Puerto Rican, Spanish, but, you know. JJ: Considered by who? By the -- RL: By the Black gang members, you know. Or even some of the people in the building, ’cause maybe they didn’t, you know, all they see is the white skin, or the brown skin, and think of it more as, you know, white people. Yeah. ’Cause I remember growing up, in the hallway going up the stairs one time, we lived in the third floor, and I saw on the wall it says, “The white people in 303 suck!” You know, I remember that [00:14:00] growing up as a kid, so. But it was fun for me, I mean, I got along great with the families, they got along great with us. It’s just, once you leave that building, going down the street, you could get jumped by outsiders. JJ: So the building was fun, you can hang out [in front of?] -- RL: Oh yeah, the building was great. JJ: Front and around the building, and the parking lot, and... RL: Right, exactly, it was great. It was fun. JJ: But once you went to the other [parts?] -- 12 �RL: Once you left the safety of that building, you know, now you engaging with strangers, or people who need some money, so they’re gonna rob you. It was totally different at that point. JJ: So how -- RL: And plus, a lot of people knew you. In the building they just know you, you know. And in those days, you could throw stuff off the -- from the floors, nowadays you - well, Cabrini-Green’s torn down now, but many years ago they did enclose it, so that you couldn’t throw things over the balconies and things like that. So you would throw a body over if you wanted in the old days. JJ: Throw a body over? RL: Yeah, if you wanted to. (laughter) I mean, you know. JJ: People threw bottles and [00:15:00] things like that, or...? RL: Yeah, one time, when I was a little kid, I was waiting, I don’t know why I was waiting outside, you know, and s-- you know, on the first floor, you could be under the building, and you’re protected from any debris or whatever. But for some reason I was on the sidewalk part, and I was waiting for somebody, you know, somebody, in those days, the milk delivery, it was a glass, milk was in glass, not, like, cartons or anything. So a bottle actually came, like, inches from me and just, I don’t know what floor it came from, but the point was, it was coming real fast, and it just splattered. It didn’t even scare me, because it happened so fast. You know, all it did was (sound effect) and it didn’t scare me, but then I just thought to myself, you know, “Dumbass, you shouldn’t even be 13 �there, take your [walk?].” The safety of the vestibule, you know, just be under the building a little bit. JJ: So, what kind of -- what was the school like then? You went to school right around, you said Schiller? What was that -- RL: Yeah, Schiller School, and you know who taught at that time, at that school, as a PE teacher? Jesse [00:16:00] White, secretary of state. JJ: Okay. He taught there? RL: He was actually a teacher at Schiller High School -- Schiller School, I’m sorry. JJ: Did you meet him, or...? RL: No, ’cause I was, you know, I was a little kid, I don’t even know if I crossed paths with him, maybe he might’ve been a PE teacher for the upper, you know, the fifth, sixth, seventh, eighth grader. But, yeah, he was from [that area?]. JJ: And there was a -- ’cause, around that time there was, like, the Old Town, that was near Old Town, too, right? RL: We weren’t that far away, but we were far away enough -- Division and Larrabee, so yeah. JJ: Enough that there was a separate culture, then (inaudible)? RL: Yeah, or -- yeah, kind of, maybe -- JJ: But there were Puerto Ricans around there, yeah? RL: Yeah, see, but I don’t remember that, ’cause again, I was a kid, so I wasn’t old enough to venture. You know, I was old -- that was my community, that 16-floor building was the extent of it. Unless we went to church, you know, we went to St. 14 �Francis of Assisi, where, at that time, was the first Hispanic mass. Spanish mass. JJ: Oh, you went there, your family went there? RL: Yeah, I was baptized at St. Sylvest-- St. Francis of [00:17:00] Assisi. And Maxwell Street was there, that’s where -- that was, like, the mall. JJ: So you remember that? But, I mean, what do you remember of that? RL: Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, the Polish sausage, and mainly, my dad negotiating, I think I learned my negotiating skills from my dad, ’cause I could w-- I would watch him negotiate with the guy, and literally, you would think they were gonna fight, because they were going back and forth, you know. And then my dad would just leave, “Come on, let’s go.” JJ: Over clothes, [or something?]? RL: Right, anything. Gym shoes, coats, clothes, anything. And then we’d walk up the stairs, the owner, “Come back, come on, come on, I’ll give you the price, give you the price.” So, you know, my dad always seemed to win the arguments. But it was pretty fascinating watching that, because -- JJ: You’re talking about Maxwell Street, that’s [how they negotiated?]. RL: Yeah, Maxwell Street, that’s the way it -- JJ: I remember [that?]. RL: That was the way it worked. And then that Polish sausage place that’s famous now, for Maxwell Street Polish, started there, ’cause that was the lunch. That was the first mall for us Hispanics, anyway. I don’t know if there were malls elsewhere, like I said, ’cause we -- [00:18:00] our own environment is what it is, 15 �you know. You go live in your building, you go to church, and it happened to be St. Francis of Assisi, which is near, you know, Maxwell Street. And then there was another church, too, that we used to go to, St. Joseph, which was near Cooley. Cooley High School. So we’d go there also. JJ: So you remember the [area?]. I remember -- well, not St. Francis, but St. Joseph, I remember [that, yeah?]. But -- so, okay, so you remember St. Francis, that’s interesting. So then, you’re going to Schiller, what was Schiller like, [inside the?] school? RL: Schiller was good, it was a good school. It was walking distance -- JJ: Were there more Puerto Ricans there, or...? RL: No, again, it was still just a lot of African American kids and myself, you know, me and a few kids, Spanish. Yeah. I mean, but, what I remember is the African Americans. I had a great time, actually, as a little kid, meeting the, even the African American [00:19:00] women, you know, the girls, my age, stuff like that. I mean, ’cause you -- there was a laundry room on every floor, too. So sometimes, you know, you go in the laundry room and play. Yeah, I mean, it was interesting. And the laundry room, they had cages in the laundry rooms. So, like, if people washed their clothes, they would hang up their clothes in the laundry room. We didn’t have a dryer, it was an old-fashioned washer. And then, to -- JJ: And then you just hang up your clothes (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? RL: You hang up your clothes and then you lock it in that cage. JJ: And then they would dry (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- 16 �RL: It was, like, three cages per -- JJ: -- it would dry? And iron -- RL: Yeah, you just [pick it up?] and it dries. Yeah. JJ: And then, so what about the family, what about the entertainment, what was that like? RL: Yeah, it was great entertainment, ’cause it was all families. Basically, our families would get together, because, you know, they all came from Puerto Rico for the most part, and so, the entertainment was, you know, getting together, ’cause now you’re [00:20:00] working hard during the week, you got your kids, you gotta do all this. But on Sundays, it seemed that we’d go v-- you know, after church especially, we’d go visit families, and, or they’d visit us, and, you know, we’d just interact with the kids. Me being a kid, I interacted with my cousins, and it was fun. JJ: [Okay, was?] -- yeah, your cousins. Where were they living? RL: I had a cousin in particular who lived -- they lived, this family lived in -- the Quinones. Family lived -- my uncle and his wife and children, they lived by Wrigley Field, Wrigley Field, actually, over in that area. And so they had a nice -I remember they had a view of Wrigley Field, practically, you know, like, from far away you could see Wrigley Field. But, yeah, we interact -- JJ: You said Quinones? Were they -- were there Latin in them too, or...? RL: Yeah, well, yeah, because my mom is a Quinones, that’s her maiden name, and the reason why that’s, you know, it’s a good question, ’cause she had 13 -- she had 26 brothers and sisters in Yauco. 17 �JJ: In Yauco. RL: Yeah. JJ: [00:21:00] She’s from Yauco, too, then? RL: Yeah. So what happened was, my grandfather married, had 13 kids, and then she passed away, my grandmother, and so he remarried and had 13 more kids, so now my mom has 26 siblings. And the reason why, because they really [liked?] the Ponderosa, you know, they lived off the land, they had a lot of land, and they even had hired -- they would hire people. So that’s how my dad met my mom, because he was a hired hand also, working on the land and stuff like that. JJ: In Puer-- in Yauco. RL: In Yauco. So there was a lot of -- they had -- it was like the Ponderosa, I guess, you know, but mountainous, of course. JJ: Oh, Ponderosa, you mean it was like a plantation type of -- RL: Yeah, you know, but it’s all mountains and, you know. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) [border?], yeah. RL: Yeah, I call it the Ponderosa. JJ: So they would hire -- so he would get hired by the other farmers to work on the food? RL: Right, my grandfather hired my dad. JJ: Okay. RL: Yeah, as young teenagers that they are, making some money. JJ: Okay. So he told you about that, [00:22:00] or...? 18 �RL: So -- huh? Yeah, my dad met my mom, of course, and so that’s how that came about. And most of my uncles and aunts, they had a lot of kids themselves, see, so they were used to a big group of people, you know, within their own family, growing up with 26. So my parents had 12, and my aunt had 10, and other family members, you know, uncles and aunts, they had a lotta kids also. JJ: You have kids too, or no? RL: I have one boy, a seven-year-old boy. JJ: What’s his first name? RL: Jake. JJ: Jake, okay. RL: I mean, I -- JJ: And your wife’s name, what’s her name? RL: I’m divorced now, pero, because of this family background I’m describing, I also wanted six kids. [My aunties?] would remind me, “Hey, you always said you wanted six kids,” ’cause yeah, I love being around -- I love kids, ’cause that’s how, you know, you learn that from home and things like that. And ironically, in my case, and I was a good -- let me back up a little bit, I was a good boy, because when I was young as a teenager, people were having kids left and right as teenagers. You know, the gangbangers, and, you know, not even gangbangers, they were just young people who were [00:23:00] havin’ sex, and, you know, they didn’t know -- they weren’t educated in terms of sex education, so all of a sudden, a girl gets pregnant, and so now they have to deal with it. So I saw a lot of that in Humboldt Park. Luckily for me, I didn’t, because I was always 19 �afraid of getting a girl pregnant. Really, that was the key, and plus, my parents, you know, they wouldn’t have been happy, so you keep that in the back of your mind. And I wanted an education anyway, so funny thing is, okay, now I go -- I ended up going to law school and so on and so on, and I married twice. And both women couldn’t have children. So, you know, I did want -- still wanted my six kids, if possible, God willing, but right now I have one child. And, so... And he was born -- I was married to a public defender in Wisconsin. And then I got married and, you know, after Wisconsin, I got divorced, came back to Chicago [00:24:00] in 2000, and the second wife I married, she’s also a lawyer, from Iowa, and she lives here, works here in Chicago. And so, her best friend from third grade, all of a sudden, just told her, “Hey, I’ll carry your kid if you want.” So it was my ex-wife’s egg and my sperm, and, you know, this lady became a carrier for our child, so that’s how I got a seven-year-old boy. JJ: Okay. (inaudible) Jake. RL: Yeah, right? Exactly. JJ: What were you doing in Wisconsin, [I mean --?]? RL: I was a public defender. JJ: In Wisconsin? RL: In Wisconsin, ’cause what happened was -- JJ: You moved out there, I mean --? RL: Yeah, what happened was, I ended up getting a scholarship -- this is my story. When I applied to law school, well, let me back up a little bit more. I went to Illinois Benedictine College... 20 �JJ: Okay. RL: Okay, which is in Lisle, Illinois, not far by Naperville, Downers Grove. And, you know, it took me time to graduate, ’cause it’s a Catholic school, it’s expensive, so I would drop out, [00:25:00] get a job, go back, and live on campus. So, it took me about six years to graduate because I just kept, you know, my goal was to graduate, and I did. But towards the end is when I really, really got serious, and started pushing myself to get excellent grades. And that’s what I was trying to do, just get some excellent grades, and I did. And so I applied to law school. In University of Wi-- At that time, I wanted to just to go to a top 20 law school. That was my goal, that’s it. “Gonna apply to a top 20 law school, if I don’t get accepted, okay, different career choice.” You know. So, I luckily, thank God I got accepted at University of Wisconsin, which was a top 20 law school. And got a full scholarship on top of that. So then I went out there, they also had a good criminal program, which, you know, I, based on where I grew up, with criminals, if you wanna call it that, my buddies, you know, I know that stuff. I became a [00:26:00] public defender. I wanted to help people. Why? Because I saw it, I saw the injustice on the street, I saw police brutality, I saw police do things. And not all -- and, like any profession, there’s good, bad, and ugly. So not all cops are bad, not all teachers are bad, not all lawyers are bad. I mean, I’ve seen some bad lawyers, you know. So in every profession, there’s some great teachers out there who love to do what they do, there’s some bad teachers who don’t care. I mean, so I’ve seen it all, you know. Growing up with 12 kids, growing up in Cabrini, Humboldt Park, you know, there’s a lotta stuff out there 21 �that, luckily for me, I was able to experience. So then I became a public defender after I graduated from law school. And I stayed out there, Racine, Wisconsin, for seven years and Milwaukee, Wisconsin, for three years. And I really loved working with juveniles, that was really what, for me, it was almost like a dream come true. You know, here I am, cross-examining a cop, basically beatin’ em up verbally. Basically, [00:27:00] helping my client in a way that, maybe the stop was illegal. Maybe the cops searched him illegally, no rights. People have -- there’s constitutional rights that we all have, most of us don’t know it though, ’cause for whatever reason, they don’t really -- they teach that in some schools, but some schools maybe just don’t, but. I felt good protecting the rights of individuals, especially based on what I saw as a kid. JJ: So you met your wife there, and then... RL: Actually, when I went to go visit that school, I met my wife-to-be. It was like a one-day visit, and she invited me to a party where the other Latino students were having law students, and I said, “No, I gotta go back to Chicago,” so, you know. And then when I did go to law school, she was a third-year law student and I was a first-year. And so we, you know, I could tell there was some connection there, [00:28:00] but my goal was to go to law school and get an education. And I was not gonna get involved in a relationship that may, you know, take my focus off what I came there to do. So, we were great friends, but I never dated her in law school. And ironically, I ended up in Racine as a public defender, where she was working in Racine as a public defender. I tried to go to Kenosha, but they needed me in Racine, so they put me in Racine, ’cause Kenosha was closer to 22 �Chicago and I wanted to be closer to Chicago. So that’s why I ended up in Racine. JJ: Now, what about your other siblings? What kind of work did they get into? RL: Well, starting from the top, my oldest brother, growing up, he worked at Sandburg Super Market, which is over there in Lincoln Park by North Avenue and Clark. And so, based on that experience -- JJ: Actually, by Old Town, it’s more like Old Town, we used to call it La Clark, the neighborhood, La Clark. RL: Right, right, near Old Town, también, exactly. JJ: Right, yeah. RL: So, yeah, ’cause Old Town is just a few blocks [00:29:00] west of there. JJ: Right, (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) [it’s?] the border. RL: Because, yeah, where he was was Clark, and Old Town’s on Wells, just a few blocks to the west. JJ: Okay, so he worked there... RL: So he worked there, and he learned a lot about the supermarket business. And eventually, he ended up buying and opening his own supermarket. I remember he called it -- JJ: What’s the name of it? RL: He called it [Lugo Warehouse Supermarket?]. Yeah. JJ: And was it located (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? RL: It was on the west side, by North Avenue, going towards [Austin?] over there. Yeah, so for many years, he had that. Eventually he opened one up in Elgin, you 23 �know, he closed that one and went to Elgin and opened a bigger supermarket. So he was doing pretty well for himself, invested in property and real estate, so he was doing well for himself. And then there was my -JJ: In Elgin, or in Chicago? RL: In Chicago, in Chicago. Yeah. And then he ended up living in Skokie during those years, that’s where he was living with two boys, you know, my [00:30:00] nephews, and his wife. And then my other brother, Raul, the second oldest, the former Young Lord, he was in the computer -- he worked for a computer company, I forget the name of it. Or was it...? I remember he worked for Continental Can Company for many years first, and ended up doing a lot of computer stuff when computers were still(inaudible) and coming out, and things like that. JJ: Actually, Gladys was a Young Lord, too. His -- RL: Oh, his wife, Gladys. JJ: Yeah, (inaudible) was a Young Lord too. RL: Right. Right, she worked for the federal system for -- till she’s gonna -- she’s still working there. JJ: And her brother [Edwin?] was also a Young Lord. RL: Right, Edwin, I remember. JJ: [Lots of?] Young Lords in that family there. RL: So I knew that family forever, ’cause they actually lived over by Armitage, and Halsted, and that area. JJ: Yeah, so they moved in that area, they were living there, yeah. 24 �RL: Right? I remember visiting them. JJ: Right by the church, right by the church. RL: Right by the church, I used to go there. Yeah. JJ: Now, you were only, like, seven years old, though, and the Young Lords were -had the church and all, you don’t remember any of that? RL: No, I just remember visiting my [00:31:00] brother’s home, just to visit, you know, the family visit. But yeah, the other things, I wouldn’t know anything about, or didn’t notice it because, you know, we didn’t hang out on the street or anything like that, we’d just visit family, and I was a kid. JJ: Do you remember the neighborhood at all, how it was, was it...? RL: Yeah, it was nice, I mean, ’cause I [still?] could picture the train station right there in Armitage, and I used to walk through that area growing up, as a teenager I used to walk in that area también. But I remember it was still -- in those days everything was simple, you know, it wasn’t gentrified, is what I mean, the difference. Right now, you go there, there’s nightlife, and restaurants, and bars, and the noise, you know, and it’s a whole different -- in those days, it was just quiet and simple. You know? People -- just blue-collar people. JJ: Like worker, working people. RL: Yeah, just, yeah, exactly. Yeah, just (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) JJ: Was there a lot of violence there or anything, like a Humboldt Park [gang leader?], or...? 25 �RL: [00:32:00] Not in that area, not in my brother’s area, but there was a lot of violence in my area. Yeah. Growing up, we had the highest homicide rate in the nation. JJ: Right, in that area, in the Cabrini-Green area. RL: No, no, in Humboldt Park. JJ: Oh, in Humboldt Park, oh yeah. RL: Humboldt Park, as a teenager. JJ: Oh, so when you were [growing up?]. RL: And I remember seeing that sometimes, in the newspaper, when I was reading it, ’cause I used to read the paper all the time, ever since I was in third grade, going to St. Sylvester, ’cause -- see, I went to Schiller, and then when we moved to Humboldt Park, my parents, you know, I finished my second grade at Schiller, and then we went to St. Sylvester. The beginning -- JJ: Oh, so you went to school at St. Sylvester, okay. RL: Yeah, the beginning of the school year, we started -- third grade, for me, and then I had a sibling in fourth grade, fifth grade, sixth -- you know, ’cause there was so many of us, so we had every -- everybody was in a different grade at St. Sylvester when we transferred. JJ: And actually, that became a big stronghold, Puerto Rican stronghold, in terms of the church. RL: Oh yeah, St. Sylvester church. JJ: And my uncle was part of that too. RL: Yeah. [00:33:00] Very strong, my parents and other -- you know, their friends -- 26 �JJ: And your friends were there at that [school?]? RL: Yeah, they had a very, very strong Puerto Rican community within the church and -- JJ: Caballeros de San Juan. RL: Caballeros San Juan, my dad was a member of that. JJ: Oh, he was a member? RL: Oh yeah. JJ: At St. Sylvester? RL: It started at St. Francis of Assisi. JJ: Oh, so he started there as a Caballero de San Juan. RL: Oh yeah, yeah, their first wave of I’m assuming, you know, the ’50s is when the big wave of Puerto Ricans came. JJ: Right. RL: And that’s when they started all these organizations, you know, to... JJ: Okay, so your mo-- that’s why you were saying your mother and your father were kinda strict. Did you say that, “strict,” or am I putting that (inaudible)? RL: No, no, “strict,” meaning they’ll whip your ass in a minute with a belt. (laughter) Yeah. (inaudible) clarify, the strict part, not just, “Don’t do that or I’ll get mad,” you know, nah, they don’t even -- you do that, you just, you’re gonna get a belt. JJ: A belt whooping. (laughs) RL: You’re gonna know it in a second, not to do it. Which was very effective, because, you know, it’s hard raising 12 kids, [00:34:00] first of all, but then the elements on the streets. I give ’em credit because, you know, bottom line, I was 27 �wrong. Even though, as a kid, you’re thinking, “What am I doing wrong?” I mean, this is just, kiddie stuff, you know, this is just, teenage stuff, or kid stuff, I mean, “Everybody else is doing it.” But luckily, they kept me on the straight and narrow with that. And I think that was it too, you know, I wasn’t afraid of the streets, I was more afraid of my parents. You know? I mean, not that these guys on the streets couldn’t do, yeah, my parents, you know, that belt, shit, you know. And then after a while, the belt didn’t hurt! I mean, I could get hit with a belt and it wouldn’t hurt me. It got to the point where the ironing cord, you know, the white and black ironing cord, that shit hurts! (laughter) ’Cause, you know, the belt didn’t hurt, and they knew it, and after a while. And then you cry before they even hit you with a belt anyway, and you act like you’re dead before they even touch you, and, [00:35:00] you know, all that stuff didn’t work though. (laughs) So no, I think it really helped, though. It really, really helped. Yeah, because... JJ: They were also religious, or no? RL: Yeah, very religious. We’d go to church every Sunday, and then we’d also pray at night, the rosary. Yeah, they had a little, I don’t know, sanctuary or something? JJ: Altar? RL: Yeah, a little altar at home, you know, made out of wood and stuff like that. And I have a picture of it too, ’cause I got some pictures just recently of the inside of, you know, our apartment. JJ: We probably are gonna call you for some pictures. 28 �RL: Yeah, and I hadn’t seen these until my aunt passed away recently, about June or July, in July she passed away. And I never really saw -- JJ: Is there any way you can put ’em on a disc, or anything, or...? RL: Shoot, I don’t know how to do -- I’m not too electronically inclined, you know, but I’ll see what I can do, ’cause they’re at work too, I coulda brought ’em with me. Yeah. JJ: We have a scanner, but we’re gonna take off tonight (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). RL: Yeah, in the background, I could see the [00:36:00] altar, you know, like, “Wow, check that out.” JJ: Yeah, we had an altar too, but my mother got into that spirit -- (Spanish) [00:36:06]. RL: Oh, santería? JJ: San-- not santería, something similar. RL: Something similar? JJ: [Not real deep?]. RL: Right, right. JJ: But, so I didn’t know what -- was -- “Are we doing the Catholic [name?] things today, or the spiritual?” But yours was all Catholic. RL: Oh yeah, ours was straight up Catholic. JJ: They didn’t -- (Spanish) [00:36:23]? RL: Oh, no, no, no, they wouldn’t. JJ: So it wasn’t [into that?] 29 �RL: They wouldn’t even go there, you know. JJ: So they don’t (inaudible)? RL: Right. So it was all Catholic, we’d say the rosary, and then we had to kneel down, cement floor. You know, during the part of the rosary where you’re supposed to kneel down, I guess, and we’d do it as a family, all of us. We’d fall asleep, but hey, you fall asleep, you -- there’d be times they would take out that belt. “Let’s see who falls asleep now!” (laughter) JJ: That was a thing [at night?], a regular thing. RL: Yeah, it was a regular thing. Yeah. JJ: ’Cause I remember in the ’40s, [they had to do that?] in [00:37:00] Puerto Rico, so (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). RL: Oh, okay. JJ: They just brought the culture here. RL: Yeah, exactly. ’Cause I’m sure it was going on over there, and they just -- yeah, they brought it over here. The rosary, you know, my dad would lead the rosary, and we’d all read Spanish -- everything was in Spanish, to this day I only speak to my parents in Spanish. You know, that’s the only way we spoke to them growing up, in Spanish. JJ: But they spoke English, though. RL: Not necessarily. My dad, of course, ’cause he started working in the factories, so he picked up the language easier. My mom, she was working when she moved back -- 30 �JJ: What kind of work did your mom do? Your father was in a factory (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? RL: Right. And my mom started working when she came back -- when she came from Puerto Rico with the three children, she worked at the Oscar Mayer plant over by Cooley High. The Oscar Mayer plant was there. And I’m sure it was a good job, and things like that, but once she started having more kids, then she had to drop out and not work to stay home and take care of the kids. JJ: Did she -- a lot of years that she worked at Oscar Mayer, or...? RL: See, I wonder how many years... JJ: (inaudible) RL: But she was having kids so fast, so maybe it wasn’t [00:38:00] that many years, but, you know, I’m assuming she might have worked there thr-- four years, or something. Yeah. JJ: [And we were asking?] about the other sibling, what kind of (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? RL: Oh, then Raul, then Wilfredo, my third brother. Oldest brother. He’s a factory worker, blue-collar. Then there’s Alicia, my sister, she clerked for a judge, worked as a court clerk for -- to this day, in the federal court. JJ: In the federal court? RL: In the federal court, downtown. JJ: Is she still -- how many years? I mean, has she worked a lotta years? RL: Yeah, she could retire now. JJ: She’s retired? 31 �RL: She’s already [beyond, yeah?]. She just -- JJ: [This is the?] federal judge, in downtown? RL: Yes. JJ: Okay. RL: Yeah, with the federal judges, right there on Dearborn. And things like that. And then, Dearborn and Jackson. And then, who comes after? William, my brother William. He worked -- he went to the service, and then he ended up with a railroad, one of the railroad companies, and now he’s with United Airlines. [00:39:00] And then David, the brother after him, he worked for the railroad also, still does to this day. And then there was the brother named Orlando, and I’m going in descending order, so, you know, three boys, one girl, then three more boys, and then another girl. So then the third boy out of that order, Orlando, he passed away around eight-- he was around 18. He was sort of the black sheep in the family, he got caught up on the streets a little more than the rest of us, and he ended up owing some guy some money and the guy stabbed him to death. And I remember getting that call as a 16-year-old, you know, they called the house and I remember picking it up and talking to the police officer, asking us to, you know, come identify the body. Yeah, so. JJ: So you got [the call?], they told you to come and identify the body? RL: Yeah, I remember telling my dad, and I went with them, yeah. Yeah, so, I remember that. JJ: So you guys were pretty tight-knit (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? RL: Oh, yeah, yeah. 32 �JJ: Pretty much, or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? RL: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:40:00] It was a big thing. Yeah. It was... Yeah, we were pretty tight, yeah. And then after Orlando came Lucy, who’s a year older than me. She ended up going to -- well, the first oldest of the girls, I think she was the first one to go to college. She went to Rosary College, which is Dominican University now. And then Lucia -- then our other brothers, well, three of ’em went to the service, and then Lucia, the sister older than me, one year older, she ended up going to Loyola University, and graduating from there. And then there was me. JJ: So what’s she doing now? [I mean, she graduated?]? RL: She works for the U.S. probations department. In the computers -- JJ: Oh, computer? RL: In computers. And she’s been there many, many, many years also. Yeah. So she could retire, I’m sure, soon. And then... Let’s see... Elena, who was one year younger than me, she graduated [00:41:00] from Dominican University, you know, Rosary College. And, where does she work? She works for an insurance company. JJ: Okay. RL: Yeah. And then after her, Teresa, my other sister -- JJ: And I think I met Teresa, she went to Michigan for one of the camps that we had. RL: Oh, really? Oh, okay. JJ: I think, yeah. 33 �RL: She’s more of a businesswoman, so, she had a couple of stores in Oak Park, clothing stores. JJ: Clothing? RL: Uh-huh. JJ: Now one of them had a, was it a beauty salon or something? Was that Lucia or something? (inaudible) RL: Oh, matter of fact, Lucy, she has a restaurant in -- with her husband. They have a restaurant in Oak Park -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Okay, [that’s a restaurant?] -- RL: -- right now, called Hemmingway Bistro. JJ: Hemmingway Bistro... RL: Very good restaurant. They’ve been there over 10 years now. They’re gonna actually open a -- they bought another building in Oak Park, and they’re gonna, I believe, have another restaurant. JJ: Yeah, ’cause I think Teresa left that number for us to call. RL: Oh, okay. JJ: And if we had other events or anything like that. RL: Oh, okay. And then the youngest is [Danny?], he graduated from Rosary College, you know, [00:42:00] Dominican University, they call it now. Yeah, and so I was the only one that went beyond college in terms of graduate studies, which was, in my case, was law school. JJ: And recently, you were involved in, was that the first time you ran for judge? 34 �RL: Yeah, one thing I always knew I was gonna do when I went to Wisconsin, when I even mar-- before I even married my first wife in Wisconsin, I told her, “Hey, I’m going back to Chicago.” You know, so, because she was born and raised in Wisconsin, and so I knew, you know, lotta Wisconsin people don’t really like to come to Chicago, and a lotta Chicago people don’t like to go to Wisconsin. So I told her, I said, “Before I marry you, I gotta let you know, I’m moving back to Chicago at some point in my career, so -- to get involved in politics, so, let me know if you can handle that.” So she, “Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.” So that was all good. And the reason why I was always intrigued by politics is, first of all, I used to read the paper since third grade. The newspaper, the daily paper here in Chicago. ’Cause there was a store in the neighborhood, you know, [00:43:00] Puerto Rican-owned, regular mom-and-pop place, and the store owner would give me a dime, at that time, for a newspaper, that’s what it was, in the box, the Sun-Times box, or whatever, the newspaper. And I’d take two of ’em, give the store owner one, and take one with me as I walked to school. So I would read the sports, I was more into the sports and stuff like that, and the teachers, when I get to school, they would take the paper, ’cause they wanna read it anyway, so they’d read it and give it back to me. So I was always reading about Chicago history, and the sports, and then I’d read the news, also. But the main thing was, during one particular period was the Harold Washington days. I mean, that was a fascinating time to be in Chicago, if you wanna learn about politics, that was some crazy stuff. Crazy stuff. I mean, it was cold-blooded, it was racial, it was everything that politics shouldn’t be. It was. I mean, it was just cold-blooded. 35 �But, the beauty of it was, it galvanized the people. The [00:44:00] Latinos, the African Americans, people who were disenfranchised, I mean, these people had no-- we really didn’t have nothing going on in our communities, in terms of not only political power, but services. Basic services. We all pay our taxes, we’re supposed to have equal services, our schools were real bad. Basic services were real bad, our neighborhoods were run down. And the way you fight that is, you know, some political juice. I mean, we saw that. We saw it in those days. You go in the north side, go in different parts of the city, where different aldermen have some pull, and they took care of their neighborhoods. Ours were treated like garbage, really, a dump. So then, once Harold Washington came about, which was, in those days, a miracle, for a Black man to run Chicago, we’re talking 25 years ago? And he won, because of the people. The power of the people, it was fascinating. It was cool. It was very nice. Unfortunately, he passed away in his second term, [00:45:00] but his first term wasn’t easy. The first term, you know, all the politicians that were aldermen in those days, a majority were white, they were just pushing back, they were trying to get rid of him, they were trying to discipli-- you know, disrespect him, they were doing whatever they could to retain their power. I mean, Chicago was a power-driven city. And still is. But... Unfortunately, he, you know, had a heart attack, 25 years ago. And in his second term, he was gonna do a lot, because again, the first term, he was being held back a lot. But, the second term, he was gonna do a lot, but he passed away. So anyway, and I was involved, I had cousins who were involved, Luisa Quinones and Noemy Quinones, they were involved in that, and I 36 �had a good buddy, [Oscar Ortiz?], at that time who grew up with me, he was involved in that, so I would watch. You know, I would see that. And one thing I learned, though, by watching all this, was that, if you really wanna be involved [00:46:00] in a more advanced way, I don’t know what the word -- you know, if you wanna really be involved, get a law degree, or be somebody. ’Cause the people -- you know, most of the people that I knew were door-knockers. I didn’t do that, I never knocked on doors, but I saw it, and they were mainly the people who were -- who didn’t have, really, the college degree and things like that, it seemed like those who were more educated had higher positions in the political arena. So if you were a lawyer, if you were, you know, higher education, whatever, master’s, you seemed to have more ability to do things. For the community, especially, too. So my -- what I saw from all that was, I gotta, you know, I gotta educate myself. And then I’ll come back, ’cause I don’t wanna be a door-knocker. I wanna be somebody that, when I sit at the table, we could talk, and they won’t try to treat me as a, you know, [00:47:00] less than they should. Anyway, and we should all be equal, of course, but sometimes the lack of education could hinder that. So. JJ: [So, you were?]... RL: So, going back to your point, yes, I ran for judge. I ran for judge in the March primaries. So, to me, that was a big thing, ’cause I knew that’s what I wanted to do in terms of coming back to Chicago, run for a political office, get involved in a political arena. But what also helped me to get into the political arena was the job I have, and I still can really have, with the Cook County Clerk of Court. When 37 �I got that job, I was very, very happy, because I knew, “Okay good, I could finally get into the political arena. ’Cause I’m gonna work for elected official, and now I could see how,” you know, “the system works from the inside now.” Before, I was an outsider, as a kid. Now I could actually come here, not only as a lawyer, but now I can work with an elected official, and get a bird’s-eye view of what goes on. And, [00:48:00] you know, and hopefully make my move, which was running for judge. And... JJ: So how did that work, I mean, how’d you get that going, and...? RL: You know, and I had my own way of thinking, as to how people should run for office, or how people should do what they have to do to get elected. My thing was, you know, you should knock on people’s doors and get to know people, you should go to train stations and get to know people, you should go to churches, you should go to the community and introduce yourself and let them know what you’re doing and why you wanna do it. And I did, I did it the old-fashioned way. People don’t do that anymore, I did it the old-fashioned way, and it worked. Did I win? No, but did it really, you know, elevate me to a position of awareness? Yeah. Yeah. And then, I think I was doing things that were forgotten traits, you know, the political process, which is to actually get out there, you know. JJ: And [00:49:00] did you build, like, your own organization and work with the Democratic machine, or [no?]? RL: Well, yeah, that’s the way it works, I remember being at St. Sylvester with my petition, you know, you needed 1,000 signatures. I was by myself, with that one sheet of paper, or that one pen and those sheets of paper, collecting signatures. 38 �But I also knew, the reason why I was doing it, too, I also knew that it was gonna be a snowball effect. I knew that it was gonna be a tiny snowball, me by myself, but I knew as things -- people got to know me, and as I was out there doing what I had to do, that that snowball was gonna progress as time went on. And election was in March, I was out there in September, which was unheard of, really, for somebody to be out there in September for a March, six-months-later election. ’Cause they don’t really get out there till way later, you know, in the game. But I was out th-- I knew what -- I knew I had a lotta work to do. I was by myself, [00:50:00] but I -- again, I knew that snowball effect. And it happened that way. People started helping me, getting involved, they got to know me, and volunteers would call, people I didn’t know, you know. Friends -- it’s funny, ’cause I remember sometimes I said, you know, “Friends became strangers and strangers became friends.” Because a lot of people that I didn’t know would help me, people that I thought would help me weren’t helping me. And because I’m the type of guy, I will help anybody, you know, I won’t ask for anything in return. But yet, I saw that some people didn’t help me when I needed them, but that was okay, because that’s how you learn, you continue learning about people and situations. And so, it was all good. It was a lot of work, it was a lot of work, I was up in the morning at the trains, I was at trains at night, I was at church on Sunday, Saturdays I had a group of people knocking on doors, they said, “Judges don’t knock on --” People would respond, “Are you running for judge? Judges don’t come looking for votes.” You know. ’Cause they [00:51:00] don’t, 39 �judges don’t knock on doors. I was doing things the way I thought it should be done. It was pretty exciting, though. JJ: So you had some opponents, or...? RL: Yeah, there were five people running. JJ: Okay. RL: There was four guys, and one female. The female was the Democratic-slated candidate, she was Puerto Rican. This other guy that was running was Puerto Rican, myself, Puerto Rican, and two Anglos were running. And -- JJ: And your area, what was the boundaries? RL: There was 10 wards, which included Humboldt Park -- JJ: There were 10 wards, okay. RL: -- most of the minority wards. Majority -- a lot of the minority wards. You know, Logan Square, Humboldt Park, going all the way west, you know, Chicago, west, almost towards Central, practically, you know, Laramie. It would go as far -- it was a lot, it was 10 wards, which is, I didn’t realize it was gonna be that much work, but hey, I had to do it. And it was great ’cause, the funny thing is, ’cause the three Puerto Ricans, [00:52:00] we all had mutual friends, so it was kinda hard to -- some of your friends won’t support you because they were supporting this person, or they were supporting that person, so it’s kind of an interesting scenario going on there. The Democratic-slated candidate, the Puerto Rican female, she ended up winning. And luckily, her and I -- I went in there with nothing but respect, I did not go in there to engage in dirty politics, ’cause I don’t see a need for that. So I came out looking good in this election because I was -- 40 �the Democratic Party saw that I was just out there doing what I had to do to try to win. I wasn’t trying to step on somebody’s toe to do it, I was just out there to do it, the old-fashioned way. Let the people decide. JJ: So why didn’t you try to get in the Democratic slate at that time? RL: I did. I actually did. Because what you do is, you go in front of the committee, there’s like 10 of ’em, and then they vote and decide. JJ: 10 because there were 10 wards, or...? RL: Exactly. One committee member per ward. JJ: [00:53:00] So you went in front of the committee of the ward? RL: Yeah. So all of us did, there was, like, four or five of us, you know, candidates, who met up, at a restaurant, and then the committee were in a room. So we go in one by one, and basically sell yourself, and explain why you want them to back you and why they should back you and things like that. So they ended up backing the Puerto Rican female. JJ: But then you decided anyway. You were just stubborn, or...? RL: No, because what happened was, at that time, it was just a matter of, you know, deciding what you wanna do as the days went by, and things like that. And I just saw, too, I was working hard, and I didn’t wanna -- remember, it started as a little snowball, now it seemed like a big snowball, and it was hard, not to -- people counting on you. People helping you. People believing in you. [00:54:00] And that’s -- it would’ve been hard to drop out of the race, it would’ve been hard, so, you know. But... JJ: So you went all the way through with (inaudible)? 41 �RL: Yeah, I went all the way through. JJ: And how did you do it? I mean, how... RL: I ended up coming in last place. The guy ahead of me, he had -- the guy ahead of me, the Puerto Rican guy, he had the former judge position, he retired, the former judge backing him, other politicians backing him, and yet he wasn’t even that far ahead of me. I didn’t have anybody backing me, any politicians or anything. Which was amazing. And limited resources, in terms of putting money out into the campaign. I mean, one person who lost in the race, the Anglo guy, one of the Anglo guys, he spent like 200,000. I mean, that’s a lot of money. JJ: Right. RL: And he didn’t win. Again, the Puerto Rican guy, he had all these politicians backing him, and he only had maybe [00:55:00] 400 more votes than me. So, I actually came out looking real good, based on the lack of resources, based on the lack of support. But I had the support of the community, which was very important. JJ: So did you set up an office, or no? RL: No. JJ: You didn’t [at the time?]? RL: No, what we’d do is we’d meet once a week, the committee of us, and we strategized what we’d do that weekend, Saturday, Sunday. So every Wednesday, we’d meet, we had some wine, some food, you know, just relax and think about, “Okay, what’s our next move? Where we gonna go on Saturday and Sunday?” What fundraiser we may have, things like that. 42 �JJ: So you were doing fundraisers and (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? RL: Yeah, that was, you know, so I -- my fundraisers were not typical, “Come and support me.” ’Cause, “Who are you?” Nobody’s gonna come. So I did more of a marketing thing, like, yeah, sure, “Support me,” but [00:56:00] it was more of a party type of thing I was advertising. I mean, it was a party, it was food, it was drinks, dancing, you know, it’s a good cause, so... JJ: And that cause, your main cause, what was your main cause? RL: Me. (laughs) You know what I’m saying? Support my candidacy. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Support your candidacy. RL: But that wasn’t the focus, the focus was, “Let’s have fun and do this.” You know? JJ: Okay, all right. So it was civil. RL: And then I know, you know what -- JJ: Like a civic thing. RL: Right, and that was never done that way before. Now, people are starting to do that. I see that now, politicians are out there advertising, almost, similar to the way I did it. You know? The most recent one was last week or two weeks ago, I went to a jazz club for a fundraiser, and it was advertised almost the way I -similar to the way I would do it. JJ: So people [that?] more like party, family, getting together? RL: Yeah, I think -- JJ: Not so much family, but party (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) -- RL: Yeah, ’cause I felt like people are not [00:57:00] gonna come and just give you money -- 43 �JJ: -- civic thing, with fun. RL: Yeah, ’cause even I did something with the word fundraiser. I put F-U-N in parentheses, and called it a FUN-raiser, without the D, I dropped the D, and things like that, I mean, I just went to a different type of -- reaching the people on a different way. You know? JJ: If you won, what did you want accomplish? RL: What I wanted to do would be an active judge. And what I mean by that is, I thought it’d give me more credibility, because I enjoyed talking to children, I enjoyed talking to senior citizens and people in the community. I wanted to go and, as a judge now, and talk to kids and say, “Look it, this is where I came from, and this is where I’m at, and you can do it.” Because I tell kids, I say, “You know what? On the first day of school, what -- if you were to give yourself a grade, what would it be?” A lot of ’em may not [00:58:00] respond, I’ll tell ’em, I say, “It’s an A. ’Cause that first day of school, as you sit there, everybody in this class has an A. Because we’re all on the same page, we all have the capability, we all have an A. The issue is holding onto that A as, by doing homework, by studying, by completing assignments, and as the year progresses, the semester progresses, but right now, you’re an A student. So, how bad do you want it? What do you have to do? Look at me, I grew up in Cabrini-Green, I grew up in Humboldt Park, I grew up with gangbangers, my friends were dying, I have a friend on death row, you know. From Humboldt Park. [Juan Caraballo?], he’s still on death row, in Stateville. And then I have a friend who, in the same neighborhood, kitty-corner from each other, went to Harvard Law School. He 44 �grew up in a family of 13 kids, Anglo family. A family of 13, this kid went to Harvard Law School, doing well now, and is a partner in the law firm. You know. [00:59:00] So, you know, and I have another friend from St. Sylvester who became the first Hispanic judge in Lake County. Jorge Ortiz. And yet we all grew up in that environment, but again, it’s, you know, there’s a lot of things that go on in people’s lives that affect their ability to move forward. You know. But I would love to go and let these kids know, “Yeah, you know, I grew up this way, but it’s possible. You just gotta have a little more focus and not be -- not allow others to drive you this way, or take you that way. You gotta take it.” JJ: So it’s possible -- so what do you think needs to be done for these -- what do these kids need to do to do what you did, [basically?]? RL: Well, the main thing is just to -- I mean, education’s everything. Why? Because my parents, they harped about education all the -- we had to do our [01:00:00] homework, we had to -- even though they only had third grade, fourth grade education, my mom, I think, had an eighth grade education, my dad, third grade education. Yet, they harped about school all the time. Doing your homework, and school was very important, that’s why they sent us to Catholic grade school and things like that, even though, you know, resources were very limited. I mean, I remember getting toys from the church for Christmas because we couldn’t afford a lot of stuff. But, you know, I think with my story, they could see that even with that type of background, because a lot of it is similar to what they’re experiencing, see, and they just gotta hear it. See, we don’t have role models out there, we don’t see ourselves in that position because we don’t see it, 45 �a person of that ability. A Puerto Rican doctor, a Puerto Rican lawyer, a Puerto Rican president, we just don’t see it. Because they don’t come visit us, they don’t come talk to us, they don’t come and show that they are us, they are where I’m at now [01:01:00] as a third grader, fourth grader, sixth grader, high school kid. I mean, those people experienced what I experience. You know, when they hear a speaker. I have good credibility when I speak because, for example, my own clients, as a public defender. I could tell ’em my background, they’ll know we’re on the same page, you know. I remember one time I went to Cook County jail with a friend of mine who’s a lawyer, ’cause he had a client, and as a favor I just went with him to go visit the guy, and the guy -- the defendant, okay, the guy in jail is explaining how the crime occurred. And I’m sitting there listening, and after he finished I told him, “It didn’t happen that way, I’ll tell you how it happened. This is the way it happened.” Why? Because my own background on the streets -- I know how -- so this guy was just bullshitting the lawyer, my friend, but as I’m listening, I know what I know, growing up on the streets of Chicago, I know that’s not how we would do things. [01:02:00] So when I can do that, then they could relax with me, knowing that I could have, that we could communicate now. “Okay, don’t bullshit me, I’m here to help you, so let’s do it. I’ll be for real, you be for real.” So on and so forth. And kids know when you’re for real, especially young people. If I’m going to a school and talk to a kid, and try to sell ’em on going to school and being educated and being successful, you know, I’m not gonna go on there and say, “Yeah, I grew up -- my parents gave me everything in life, and you guys shouldn’t complain.” You know? “You should 46 �-- you just gotta deal with life.” Nah, I tell ’em, “Hey, life is not easy. It was never easy.” That’s the beauty of it, though. That’s the beauty of it, ’cause if it wasn’t, it’d be too boring. You know? JJ: So what are you doing today, I mean, in terms of your -- the lawyer, are you still a public defender, or...? RL: Nah, right now I work for the court system, so I can represent people. I’m a deputy general counsel at the Cook County Clerk of Court’s office. JJ: What -- [01:03:00] [I don’t know -- what do you mean?]? RL: And what they do, the Cook Clerk of Court, they gather all the -- any paper that you file in court, we’re in charge of. We put it in a folder, and we file it, so any document in a court case, any paper in that file, we’re responsible for it. JJ: For any cases, criminal, or...? RL: In any case in any Cook County. Any case in Cook County. So that’s a big -- JJ: Civil or criminal, to both? RL: Criminal, civil, I mean, traffic, anything that comes into the court system -- JJ: Goes through your office. RL: We deal with it. And we’re, like, the second biggest in the nation. Cook Court system. JJ: Court system. RL: Yeah, we’re that busy. So, it’s a interesting, you know, place to be. I enjoyed litigation, when I was a litigator, in court fighting for my clients, because I thought it was good to try to talk to a jury. I don’t know if -- a lot of attorneys aren’t good with juries. 47 �JJ: Litigation means trying (inaudible) attorneys (inaudible)? RL: Huh? JJ: Litigation means trying (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? RL: Yeah, you’re right, [01:04:00] trying a case to a jury of 12 people. JJ: Okay. RL: And I enjoy doing that because I could be for real with the jury. A lot of attorneys don’t know how to relate to people because, for their background, whatever, they just, sometimes they forget that -- ’cause sometimes lawyers think of themselves up here, and then the jury, you know, common folks that we are, down here, and they see that, you gotta come down if you wanna communicate, you gotta make sure you’re at the same eye level, and make sure you could get their point across. JJ: So that’s a pretty good job. Why do you wanna run for the judge thing? RL: Because I wanna - the reason why I wanted to run for judge was to allow me to continue. ’Cause my ultimate goal, and I think it’s important that people have goals in life, because then you’re not gonna get bored, because you’re always trying to work towards something else, you know, and every time you accomplish something, that’s a big thing. But then, does that mean you [01:05:00] stop accomplishing? No, because if you have another goal, then whether it’s education or something that you have to work towards, at least you know, “Okay, that’s what I have to do, I have to work t--” So in my case, being a judge was gonna give me that [instant?] credibility so I could go in the neighborhood, do what I wanted to do in the community. My ultimate goal, I tell people, is to 48 �become the first Hispanic mayor of Chicago. Will that ever happen? I don’t know. But it’s the same as people saying, you know, “Shoot for the moon, and you’re amongst the stars, at the very least.” So it’s the same mindset, you know, I’ve always been inspired by Harold Washington, and things like that, and politicians like that. And so I say that, so I, you know, I consciously work towards that, so I was very satisfied when I ran for judge, because I never, you know -JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) the first election is usually an experience for the experience. RL: Exactly, it is, and you’re right. JJ: [And, so that was good?]. RL: And get your name out there so [01:06:00] people know who you are. You know, you gettin’ off the bench, I respect those that get off the bench than just sit on the bench. I may talk about it, but if I don’t do anything about it, it’s all talk. So. JJ: Now, since Harold Washington, ’cause I think he opened the doors for a lot of Latinos, you know, I mean a lot of people, but I mean Latinos also. Have you seen other Latinos more since that period of time move up the ladder...? RL: Yeah, yeah. And, you know -- JJ: I mean, are they working all over the...? Within the Democratic party, I mean, are they working within...? RL: Yeah, I mean there are some good politicians out there, Hispanic and African American, but are they really helping us as a community? To a certain extent. To a certain extent. Why? Because I’d rather have ’em in there than not have ’em, because I remember how it was when we didn’t have ’em. Some of ’em are 49 �limited and, you know, they limit themselves, I guess, in their ability to [01:07:00] really help the community. I think they could take us farther. JJ: Do they do it intentional, or -- what do you mean they limit themselves? RL: I know, that’s kinda sad, a sad thought, do they do it intentional? Maybe. Maybe some do. JJ: If they do it intentional, they just wanna get the job and that’s it. RL: The prestige, the money, the power. Yeah. ’Cause there’s not enough of us out there, so the few that we have, you know, they’re almost on the -- not the level of God, but they’re up there, the people give ’em that without them actually proving themselves. I mean, I’d rather see you -- you know, I give it to you but, show me, you know, you should deserve it though. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) the job, they just got put on there. RL: Right. JJ: Without skills, is that what you’re saying, or...? RL: They may have the skills -- JJ: I don’t wanna put -- RL: -- no, they may have the -- JJ: I don’t wanna put words in your mouth. RL: Right, they may have the skills, but it’s the power trip, you know, they’re making their money, they’re making -- [01:08:00] you know, they get complacent. They get complacent. Maybe that was their -- again, maybe that was their goal to be aldermen, and then, “Okay, what’s your next goal? Now you became an alderman, what is it you wanna do with that? Do you wanna just make money 50 �and cut deals and just do minimal for the community, or are you gonna maximize and do everything that you aspired to do when you did run for this office?” You know, there’s a difference between wanting to do something, talking about doing something, and actually doing it. See? So that’s why I think they do have the right attitude and the right heart when they do run, and then they do win, and they love it, they celebrate it with the community, but now what? What are you gonna do with it? I mean, we put you in the driver’s seat, but how far are you gonna take us? JJ: So what do you think holds them down? ’Cause it’s sorta like, they jump, they’re jumping up and then they [01:09:00] stop. So (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) RL: Right, I think they fall into the trap of their peers. And when I say peers I mean, like, the other aldermen who have been there for many years, more the -- it could be other aldermans, whether they’re white, Black, or Spanish, who have been there for many years, and maybe their focus is just to make money, and they’re teaching you the game. You know, “Just keep your mouth shut, or just do it this way, and we could work it together. Now, if we don’t work it together, you’re gonna be an outsider, and you’re gonna be limited. We’re not gonna give you much of the pie. You want a piece of the pie? Work with us, we’ll share with you.” But... JJ: That’s straightforward, [then?]. (laughs) Is that what you’re saying? RL: Yeah. I mean, there are some renegades out there that don’t fall into that trap, that want to do what they can for the whole community, and fight the powers that be to get that [01:10:00] slice of the pie to share with the people, you know. 51 �Evenly. But I mean, the schools are still messed up, I mean, there’s just too much, our people are just screwed. Are we screwing ourselves? I mean, what is our problem? The same issues that I saw when I was a kid, a teenager, you saw in the community that you guys fought for. JJ: What were those issues? That you saw. RL: Lack of education, lack of opportunity, jobs. At the very least, that we were, [if had?] good education, you know... We’re not graduating from high school. We’re not graduating from college. I mean, education’s everything. I mean, it opens your mind to question, you know, and look at things differently, or at least question instead of just allowing somebody to tell you that, “This is blue, so [01:11:00] believe me it’s blue, even if it’s not,” you know. They may have the handkerchief over and say, “Just trust me, there’s something blue under here.” But, you know, education is the bottom line. Why? Because then, that next generation, you’re gonna help educate them too. We can’t just rely on teachers. I help my kid with his homework and things like that ’cause I realize, teachers have a role, but so do parents. You know? You really wanna maximize your kid’s abilities, it takes more than just going to a school. When they’re young like that, I mean, you have to help them and motivate them and make them feel good about going to school and saying, “Yeah, this is good, I wanna go back to school and raise my hand when a teacher has a question and challenge her or him,” and feel like their brain is working, they’re being creative and they’re actually learning, instead of being bored and feeling like “Oh, I’m not as smart as the next [01:12:00] person.” And just allowing yourself to vegetate, really. Come home, 52 �watch movies, and forget about. You know, almost giving up. Almost giving up, even though you got a brain that’s priceless, you know. But... JJ: So what are some of the other issues? I know we did discuss, like, police abuse at that time. And we discussed housing [in that?] -- is that a problem today, too, or no? RL: Well, gangs, gang issues are still a problem. Why? There’s no excuse for that, really. But at the same time, I remember when we grew up, there was boys’ clubs, there was YMCAs, there was all kinds of community organizations and places you could go and be involved, and things like that. Now, there aren’t any. There aren’t any community things going on. There’s no YM-- you won’t find a YMCA or Boys & Girls Club in your neighborhood anymore. They’re replaced [01:13:00] by McDonalds, Burger King, or fast food joints, or businesses. And, you know, the contrast was, if you were in the suburbs, you go to school in those days, you could play sports, you could do this, you could do that, you could do all these things. Over here, yeah, you could say the same thing, but it’s not the same. I mean, I remember I played soccer at Illinois Benedictine for a couple years because they would give me, like, 800 bucks. For me, anything was good, so I could make some money to pay my tuition. I remember we played Lake Forest College. Man, those kids, they all had beautiful duffel bags, they all had the exact same ones and beautiful uniforms, and here we are with our, you know, little garbage bag, practically. I was like, “Wow, that’s pretty cool.” I mean, we don’t have that, but, you know, it’s the school system that buries us, or allows us 53 �-- or we bury ourselves, [01:14:00] too, though. It takes two. You know, it takes two. JJ: And you don’t think the housing was contributing at all, or...? You just think that if we fixed -- I just wanna get clear what you’re saying. So you’re saying that if we just fixed the school system, that would get people more educated and that would improve other services? RL: Right, it would improve our, you know, ourselves a lot, why? Because I think it allows us to -- the next generation to be hopefully, you know, the American Dream’s always that the next generation does better. But if we look at our -- the way things are going, partly because of the school system being as bad as it is, I may not graduate, my son may not graduate, my daughter may not graduate. But if I have a degree and understand the value of it, my son, my daughter may be tutored by me, even at home. People hire tutors out there, and it’s, like, amazing. Which is good, if they can afford it, [01:15:00] but yet, we don’t even come close to doing that. I mean, we don’t even do homework. Not we, 100 percent, but there’s parents out there who are just too busy. Why? They work, they both work, they’re tired, they come home. You know. They forget the most important investment is that child, though, in your own household. I mean, that’s really the biggest investment in your household, and you’re letting it go down the drain. I mean, like, when we educate ourselves, when we have kids, we’re gonna let them know how important education is, and we want them to do better than us. And we want them to be in first grade and not feel behind. Because we’re gonna be, you know, teaching. I remember, in college, between age of 54 �zero and two, a child, reading that their brain is like a sponge. I mean, they just, like, soak up information. So, when my kid was, when he was born, I was always interacting with him. Reading to him, talking to him, whatever, ’cause I knew that was an important window. And then thereafter, I would [01:16:00] take him to the book store with me. Instead of buying him books, I figured, “Hey, let’s just go have dinner, let’s go to a bookstore and relax.” And then he could read three, four, five books. So he understood, you know, there was a lot going on in life, by reading, and things like that. I’d read to him, when I would read I would stutter, because I want him -- because my thing is, when I say stutter, is because I think, if you know the alphabet, you could read. That’s what I say. So when I read to him, I show him the alphabet, so I would repeat the B in the word “butter” a couple of times, U, I would repeat it, so he could see that these are just letters that are put together. And so he’s a very good reader, he’s in a gifted school, Skinner, right now, which is -- you had to apply for. I mean, it’s funny, because nowadays we have gifted schools in this city. We didn’t have that before, we didn’t have any of that. But now that more people are living in the city, moving from the suburbs, we feel the need to have that type of service for them. But we didn’t feel the need to have that type of service for us when we were growing up [01:17:00] in the city. ’Cause I think everybody’s gifted, I mean, we’re all gifted, long as we have a brain, you could do a lot. If you’re brain damaged, I can understand the limitations, but as long as we have a brain and we have somebody that cares, a teacher, a parent, to help us along, you know. I feel bad when I see kids not really being -- don’t know how to read and stuff like that, 55 �because I’m thinking, “Wait a minute, at least that parent has a eighth grade education, so they --” You should be able to teach ’em, and your child, first grade reading, math, whatever, but parents don’t wanna involve themselves that much. You know, across the board, anyway. And so that, remember, there’s that cycle, and that sucks. That sucks. I mean, you wanna educate your kid, you can do it. You don’t have to rely on a teacher. I mean, you are going to, ’cause the child automatically goes, but he needs that tutor at home. He needs to see that the parent cares, that it’s important to the parent too. You know? That their child does well. ’Cause they get a lot of [01:18:00] reinforcement from the parents, too. “Wow, you did great,” you know. “Mira, Jose, you got an A, wow, that’s good, see, I’m glad you did your homework, we did your homework, yeah, we interacted.” Instead of popping a video in there, or a Game Boy, I don’t like Game Boys or whatever the kids do on TV, or. His mother bought him one, you know, my ex, but I’m not a big fan, and now she’s complaining he’s spending a lot of time on it, I say, “Well, what do you expect?” You know, “It’s catch-22, you buy it, he uses it, now you’re complaining? Come on.” (laughs) So, but... JJ: Any final thoughts? RL: Well, you know, and again, it goes back to -- it’s a collective, you know, it’s a collective. And what I see right now is that we’re thirsting for leadership, our community. [And I’ll call it?] Hispanic community, ’cause I see that more, you know, I’ll talk about our people. We’re thirsting for leadership, we don’t have it. We elected people, and we put ’em in positions of [01:19:00] leadership, and we wanted them to lead us. And, you know, they’re like tires in the winter, just 56 �squealing in the snow, you know, slip-sliding away. And we’re like, “Wow,” you know. And now we’re getting -- so it’s almost like we’re frustrating ourselves, you know, we’re getting frustrated and saying ”What the heck?” It’s almost like kids, we’re looking for that leadership, like a kid looking to their parents, and we do that with our leaders as adults. We’re like, “Where’s our leadership? We wanna move forward.” Which was why, when Obama won as president, President Obama, the Blacks of course, the African Americans, very, very happy, of course. But we were all also very happy, because that’s the closest that we could get to a minority person that we think our, you know, is a leader, and is gonna help us, and so on and so on. Imagine if some of us were in high positions, you know, Latinos. ’Cause we do, we do get some satisfaction, and we do get some pride and we, [01:20:00] you know, it kinda wakes us up. And then maybe we can start realizing, “Wait a minute, we can do it.” [John?] and [Jack?] from Humboldt Park, there’s that Young Lord who was doing drugs, and look at him. You know? I mean, we don’t see those stories, because right now we’re just so busy trying to make our money to survive. I mean, I’m just talking about people working, I mean, we’re just busy doing that, and it’s kinda hard on our kids, right, education and stuff, we don’t help them, but it’s hard on us too. That’s why we’re looking for our leaders to pull us a little bit, and we don’t have that. We have gangs, we have schools that are bad, we have just too much -we’re kind of giving up hope in a sense, you know, because, especially Latinos, because we have the church, that we don’t see it as strong as it used to be. We see kids being molested, and then we see the leadership not responding the 57 �way, [01:21:00] you know, the way they should, I guess, right? I mean, I’m not blaming the whole church because, again, in every profession, we have good, bad, and ugly. There’s a lot more good than bad. But the bad is what we have to deal with, and hopefully respond appropriately. So, that’s why I have that in the back of my mind as a goal, to become the first Hispanic mayor, because I saw it in Harold Washington, I saw what he did, and what he was going to do, and then he died. But, I’m sure Chicago would’ve been way different. JJ: And you said you worked on the Harold Washington campaign, what were you doing then? RL: No, my cousins were, my buddy was, and so I would, like, go watch -- go to the -when he won, or I’ll watch it on TV, or I’d read about it in the paper. You know. ’Cause I remember when [01:22:00] Harold -- Epstein or whatever the Republican -- JJ: Epton, yeah. RL: Epton, Epton. Was running, when the commercials showed, like a Black hand voting, and then the tag word was, “Before it’s too late,” you know, “Vote Epton before it’s too late.” I mean, it was so racist, I was like, “Wow! This is amazing, how 19-whatever!” Yeah. And commercials are just straight up racist. JJ: Well, he was being picketed and everything by Epton supporters. They were picketing him at the time. RL: Right? I mean, everything was -- it was just crazy. Even on TV, I remember the Council Wars. The way he was just -- JJ: The Council Wars, can you explain what that is, or...? 58 �RL: Yeah, it was basically the aldermen, for the most part, the white aldermen in Chicago. When Harold won, they ganged up as a group of 28, I believe it was, and Harold Washington, to get a lot of bills passed, or [01:23:00] ordinances, or whatever, laws, he would need them. He would need a majority, you know, at least. But the majority were the whites, so they would block almost everything he would do. So even though he was the mayor, he was like a lame duck mayor, because he wasn’t allowed to really run the city the way he wanted to, the way he thought would be a better -- to make the city better for everybody. But the power, the Council Wars, as they called it, because now, the 28 aldermen versus the mayor, and it was pretty ugly. It was -- you see it on TV, you read about it in the paper, but they didn’t care. I mean, power was the ultimate goal for the 28, they did not wanna lose it, especially to a Black man, especially to the minorities in the community, ’cause he represented -- he was gonna represent the minorities, ’cause we really didn’t have representation until he came along. And not only that, he was [01:24:00] gonna appoint Latinos and African Americans to a position of power in the city departments. Hell, we’re all taxpayers, we should all have equal rights, but you know. JJ: Actually, I think he said that publicly, like when they had the Puerto Rican parade, they had the first neighborhood festival in Humboldt Park. Do you recall it? It was, like, 100,000 people or something like that in Humboldt Park. RL: Wow. JJ: You don’t (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? RL: No, I don’t remember that. 59 �JJ: I think he said that publicly, then. RL: Oh, really good. JJ: About appointing Latinos. And he did (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). RL: Right, right, exactly, oh yeah. Yeah, it was good, it was good stuff. It was a lot of stuff happening in Humboldt Park, I mean, I remember the 1976 riots, Puerto Rican Day parade riots. JJ: The ’66 riots? RL: That was the first. The second one. JJ: Oh, the ’76 --? RL: The second was ’78. JJ: ’78, okay. RL: ’78, the second one, ’cause I was a sophomore and at Prosser. And that was the second riot, it was a two-day riot. A couple people died the first day, and the second day, I think a couple more [01:25:00] people got shot by the police, and businesses were burned, and everything. JJ: [Five people died?] in ’78, I wasn’t aware. RL: Yeah, 1978, the day of the Puerto Rican parade. And what happened was, ’cause I remember being there -- JJ: Oh, I was here, yeah, just saying, I didn’t remember. RL: Yeah, Google, man, that’s a good one. I mean, nowadays, you know. And that’s another thing, when I say Google. A lot of kids think they can’t go to college ’cause they can’t afford it, and I’m thinking, “Wow, all you gotta do is Google for scholarships and,” you know, “just put in some keywords and things’ll pop up, a 60 �little research, you’ll find some money out there.” A lot of people don’t do that, when I was young I had to go to Harold Washington Library downtown, which was at Randolph and Michigan, which is now the cultural center, and I would go in there and ask the librarian, you know, “I’m looking for scholarships, do you have a book on it?” And they’d give me these dusty old books that nobody was looking at and, you know, there was obsole-- half of the scholarship information in there was obsolete, wasn’t even in existence anymore. But I had to, you know, [01:26:00] find a way, I had to take the train and go downtown. Kids nowadays, they could just go on the computer and do some research, and hopefully find some money out there. And it is, there’s money out there. JJ: Now you mentioned your brother, Lugo, and you didn’t know Gladys was part of that too. RL: Right, right. JJ: And Edwin. RL: And Edwin, right. JJ: And Edwin is her -- Gladys’s brother. RL: Brother, exactly. JJ: So, Edwin [Diaz?]. RL: Right, Edwin Diaz. JJ: Now, you said he [talks?] -- you’re hearing some stuff about the Young Lords from him, or...? RL: No, I never really -- I didn’t -- JJ: [He?] never [talked about it, or...?] 61 �RL: No, no. JJ: Was he embarrassed of them, or...? RL: No, it just had -- you know, I was a different generation. JJ: Oh, you were a different generation. RL: Yeah, ’cause he -- I don’t know how old he is, but, what, maybe about 58, I’m guessing. 59. JJ: In terms of age? RL: Yeah, I mean [it was like?] there was a big gap, because he’s the second oldest and I’m one of the young ones, the babies, you know. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) RL: My crew was different, I was at home. [01:27:00] I was more of a kid, you know, and what they did on the street, they did. You know, I wouldn’t even know. JJ: But you wouldn’t -- he’s not considered someone involved with drugs, or gangs -- RL: No. JJ: -- or anything, but you never saw them do that? RL: No. But you know what, he did influence me in a positive way one time, because when I went to Holy Trinity, I was behind on credits, because again, I got D’s and F’s at Prosser. So I wasn’t gonna graduate on time. So I actually went to a counselor, and he signed me up for a fifth year of high school at Holy Trinity. And then for some reason, well, I was at my brother’s house one day, and I mentioned that to him. We were talking, and he mentioned how he went to colleges, he said, “Why don’t you go to college?” And that kinda surprised me, because nobody ever mentioned colle-- college was never in the picture for me, 62 �okay. I thought if I graduated from high school that was a big, big thing. And nobody ever mentioned it until he did, he said, “You should go to college.” And then [01:28:00] he backed it up by explaining why. He said, “You know what? I went to Berkeley, and Michigan, as a speaker, as a Young Lord.” ’Cause in those days, psychology and sociology were big things, and they’d invite some of the Young Lords to tour their college’s campus, and talk to the students, and stuff like that. So that kind of amazed me, ’cause first of all, I didn’t know anything about college, but second of all, I didn’t know he actually went to these major universities. JJ: I remember when he went to Berkeley, [I remember that?]. RL: Yeah, that kinda tripped me out, so that had a big effect on me. So what I did the next day, it was a Sunday, I was visiting with him at his house. I went to Holy Trinity, I told the counselor, I said, “You know what? I’m going to college. Whatever it is I gotta do to graduate this year, tell me, ’cause I’m not gonna do a fifth year of high school. So tell me what I gotta do.” So, he told me, “Well, take some correspondence courses.” Whatever -- this is what you had to do. And I [01:29:00] did, I took some correspondence courses besides my high school courses, and I was real busy, but I graduated. You know? And then I just, you know, ended up, of course, graduating from college and things like that, but yeah. It was because of him, because of that. Nobody ever said anything -- JJ: I remember, he traveled through the [whole coast?] of California, speaking at different -- RL: Oh, really? 63 �JJ: -- places, yeah, [I remember when?] he did that. RL: So, you know, so I helped his daughters, he had three daughters. All of ’em graduated from University of Illinois Champaign-Urbana. JJ: Lugos? Lugos? Okay. Good. RL: Yeah, uh-huh. And because -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) RL: Right, right, exactly. (laughter) So it was [funny?] because he inspired me, you know, I learned everything I learned about applying for school and everything on my own. And so, when the girls were getting to that age of applying for college, I would tell ’em, “Hey,” I was the one to [01:30:00] tell ’em exactly what to do. And they did, because they had a thirst for -- ’cause I could tell kids what to do, if they don’t listen, what good is it, right? I could give ’em the whatever, but if they won’t work it, you could lead ’em to water, if they don’t drink, then they’ll stay thirsty. But his girls, they listened to me, and they applied to -- I would tell ’em after their junior year, the summer of their junior year, you know, after the junior year, I said, “Right now’s the time you guys gotta apply for college. Get the application, start getting ready for those recommendation letters.” And I’d give ’em the process, because once they became seniors -- you know, ’cause I always feel like, you gotta be first in line, when you -- the applications are ready, they tell you, “Send your applications, admission application, beginning September through March.” Well, guess what, if you do it in March, the chances of you getting in are almost zero. But if you were part of the people that sent it in in September, you know, that’s a big [01:31:00] difference. So I told ’em, “You gotta get -- a ton of kids are 64 �gonna ask their teachers for recommendation letters, these teachers are gonna be busy, and they have a personal life, and they’re not gonna have time for 100 personal letters. Get your stuff ready, and do it immediately, and be first in line.” Sure enough, they all graduated, they all did what I told ’em and they did it. I told other siblings, you know, nephews and nieces, I tried to help them, they wouldn’t listen, so of course they didn’t go to college, or they didn’t go to graduate school, or whatever. You know? I try to help people as much as possible. I was on the admissions committee at University of Wisconsin Law School for minorities. And then, what it consisted of was, four law professors, and an African American, Spanish representative, and an American Indian representative. So we were on the committee for minority applicants. JJ: And this was in what city? RL: University of Wisconsin Law School, Madison. JJ: [01:32:00] In Madison, okay. RL: Right. As a law student, I was on the committee. And I brought in the most Latino law students ever. Based on the admission. Why? Because I was proactive. I see their qualifications, we’d vote on it, but more -- that’s one thing, you could send an admission letter, they may not come, they may go elsewhere. But I get on the phone, and I call these people and say, “Hey, you know, I’m soand-so, Ricardo Lugo, I’m at the law school and I saw your application, we would love for you to come visit, we’d love for you to come here.” Or something to sell these students to come here. I’d represent the Latino students, so that’s why I would call, and the African American guy or girl would call the African American 65 �applicants, you know. So I recruited -- and the ones that actually came, we had the highest -- the largest Hispanic law student class, first-year law students, was when -- because of my efforts. You know. ’Cause, you know, I just want everybody to [01:33:00] have that opportunity. I mean, it’s a great school, it’s, whatever it takes. I even had -- one friend of mine in particular, he’s here in Chicago, he went to University of Chicago undergrad, [Morrison the Mejicano?]. I called him, I said, “Hey, come visit, and you can even have my apartment. Come for the weekend, you can have my apartment, I can stay somewhere else, but that way you have a place to stay.” Sure enough, he came to visit, and he’s still a good friend of mine now. The other day I saw him, a couple weeks ago, he said, “You know, I might run for judge myself.” We were just talking. So I like to back up what I say. I don’t like to just talk to talk, you know, I like to back it up. You know, and hopefully if I’m around a group of young people, I tell you, “Hey, I would love to talk to your kids.” I was at a LULAC convention in Puerto Rico, and a woman that worked with the Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, a Latina, happened to be from my same town, you know, Yauco, Puerto Rico. She said, “You know what, I’m the diversity [01:34:00] coordinator at the -- on the Air Force base, would you come and speak to us during Hispanic Heritage Month?” I’m like, “Sure, I love doing that stuff.” So then a few months later, she called me and told me, “Hey, yeah, remember we talked? Why don’t you come down?” And she said, “How much do you charge?” And I said, “Nothing.” You know, I enjoy doing that. You know, I don’t charge to talk. And sure enough, I went down there and it was in -- it’s in Dayton, Ohio. And, yeah, so I flew into 66 �Columbus, Ohio, rented a car, went over there and slept on base. They had their own hotel. They gave me -- put up the room and stuff. But yeah, you know, again, I just enjoy doing it. People helped me, so I don’t see any reason why we can’t help each other. The payback is the positive, you know, the seed you may plant in somebody. But it’s up to them to put some water or knowledge, whatever. JJ: So there’s [01:35:00] some elections coming up, are you -- the mayoral thing is [not?] coming up soon, right? (laughter) RL: I’m not -- yeah, I gotta -- I’m working with the party, Democratic Party, to try to get into their good graces. In other words, to have them help me, slate me, you know, in becoming a judge, or becoming an alderman, or whatever, down the road. That’s where I’m at. ’Cause they saw that I did a good job, and they were, I’m sure, surprised, at what I did. But at the same time, impressed with what I did. So, we’ll see. I mean, I was going to senior citizen homes, I was all over the map. Yeah. It was busy, it was nonstop, I -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) Busy, yeah. Busy work. RL: I think I put three years of work into six months, man. (laughter) ’Cause I have my job, I have my son, I have the streets, the work, the streets, get that vote. I had to do what I had to do. [01:36:00] So. JJ: Final, final thoughts? RL: That was my final thought, but, yeah. (laughs) JJ: I appreciate it. I appreciate it, Ricardo. RL: Gracias. 67 �JJ: Gracias. END OF VIDEO FILE 68 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c77194b48c57d8669598dcde8bc1b223.mp4 6283a3db050a30ca1656f7be998c961e Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Ricardo Lugo vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Ricardo Lugo, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 12/14/2012 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Lugo_Ricardo Title A name given to the resource Ricardo Lugo video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lugo, Ricardo Description An account of the resource Oral history of Ricardo Lugo, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 12/14/2012 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-12-14 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fa921b9e57dc68e9605a1f3bc8e11196.pdf e801f1023562e3d18d28ae971964a140 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Felipe Luciano Interviewer: Jose Jimenez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/15/2013 Runtime: 01:13:52 Biography and Description Oral history of Felipe Luciano, interviewed by Jose “Cha-Cha” Jimenez on March 15, 2013 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. "The Young Lords in Lincoln Park" collection grows out of decades of work to more fully document the history of Chicago's Puerto Rican community which gave birth to the Young Lords Organization and later, the Young Lords Party. Founded by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, the Young Lords became one of the premier struggles for international human rights. Where thriving church congregations, social and �political clubs, restaurants, groceries, and family residences once flourished, successive waves of urban renewal and gentrification forcibly displaced most of those Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, working-class and impoverished families, and their children in the 1950s and 1960s. Today these same families and activists also risk losing their history. �Transcript FELIPE LUCIANO: Okay. My name is Felipe Luciano. I was born in the old Metropolitan Hospital on Welfare Island. It’s now called Roosevelt Island. I was born on November 24th, 1947, two years after the big war. I was born in East Harlem. That’s where we came to, my mother and father, after I was born. And we were a barrio family. JOSE JIMENEZ: FL: Where did you come from? My family comes from Puerto Rico. My mother was born here, so she’s part of that generation we call the pioneros. They were the first Puerto Ricans here, born here. JJ: What’s her name? FL: Her name is Aurora Luciano, my mother’s name. She’s passed two years ago. JJ: Your mom? FL: It still hurts to even think about it. My father was born in Puerta de Tierra, Puerto Rico, which is in San Juan. His father’s from Camuy, Puerto Rico. My maternal grandmother comes from [00:01:00] Cataño, Puerto Rico, which is primarily a Black area. And I’ll start with my grandmother. My grandmother, fleeing Puerto Rico’s poverty and the lack of real jobs for single women, left three of her kids. She had three kids from two gentlemen in Puerto Rico. One was Haitian. She had two with the Haitian, and in those days, by the way, Caribbean people traveled from island to island, and I owe a great deal of gratitude, we all do, to the Haitians because it was the Haitians who made revolution a reality. After 1 �they had their revolution with Toussaint Louverture and Dessalines, they traveled to the other islands, like Puerto Rico, advocating that slaves overthrow their Spanish slave masters. And there were laws [00:02:00] that stated emphatically that they should be killed onsite. But it was Haitians who literally fomented revolution and rebellion in Puerto Rico against the slave masters. My grandmother, having already separated from two of the gentlemen that she had three kids with, decided that her best bet was to come to New York, so she gets on a steamer. In those days, they had re-converted cargo freighters. One of them was called a Marine Tiger. In fact, it was that name, the Marine Tiger, that became a pejorative among Puerto Ricans here in New York because if we called you a marine tiger, it means you came on a ship. And many of them were cane cutters. Some of them were urban people, but most of us come from agricultural families, country folk. Interestingly enough, my father’s mother -- so I’ve dealt with my mother’s mother, Margo, Black, [00:03:00] African, always proud of her African past, had horrible memories of the Spaniards. Her mother, Rosa, went to Spain with a family, and she served as their nanny, and the experiences that she related to my grandmother, who then related it to my mother, who then related it to me, were traumatizing. They were horrible, the way they treated her, the disrespect, the humiliation she had to go through. When she came back, she said, “You can’t trust any of these Spaniards, any of them.” JJ: What do you mean? How did they treat her? 2 �FL: They beat her. They mistreated her. They spoke to her in ways that were inhumane and that were less than civil. By the time she got back to Puerto Rico, she never did it again. She said she would never work for them again. My grandmother tells me that during the time of the invasion, before the invasion, the Spanish troops would come through towns and just rape women whenever they wanted to. [00:04:00] And she said, “You can’t trust a Catalano,” because many of the soldiers from Spain were from Catalan, at least where she was. And she never, ever saw -- JJ: And she was in Cataño? FL: She was in Cataño. And of course, she traveled around also, but she told me that she could never trust a Spaniard again, so my family was versed and immersed in Blackness and Négritude, sometimes negatively. Sometimes they were Black through negativity. That is, “We’re Black, and therefore we’re not this, and we’re not that.” My grandmother with me though, that is, my mother’s mother, having seen what negativity could do the mind of a young man, she always promoted Blackness in me. (Spanish) [00:04:52 - 00:04:58] around her head. She used a bandana [00:05:00] around her head. She used to cook with wood. She would actually put her hand in the fire and take the wood out. She was an incredible woman, and she used to -- the earliest memories I have, the first 10 years of my life, is of her tracing the lines of my nose, the lines of my eyebrows, my lips, and saying, “What a beautiful child you are.” I mean, she would marvel. She would coo at me, so I remember that throughout 10 years, I would lie on her lap, and she would coo. And she used to call me (Spanish) 3 �[00:05:25]. And she used to sing, (sings in Spanish) [00:05:29 - 00:05:38]. And then she would say, “Ay, que frio. Ay, que frio.” And it was a contradiction because she was saying it was hot, but he would say that it was cold so that he could eat it. So, I’d go put all of these Africanisms, (sings in Spanish) [00:05:53 00:06:00]. You would say that to the babies. So, I grew up with this tremendous, tremendous pride in being Black, but I never grew up feeling that Black was ugly or that it was inferior. I grew up, long before James Brown said it, that Black was the most beautiful thing there was. And so, my grandmother would take my nappy hair, and she would put little mounds. She would make little [monitos?], we call it. And I grew up with a tremendous sense of beauty. As I grew older, I realized that many of my African American friends and even some Puerto Ricans had not been brought up in that meilleur. And so, I had many fist fights because they would say, “You know, well, we’re ugly. We’re ashy. We’re this. We’re that.” And I said, “No, man, I’m pretty.” And they would ask me, “Well, who told you pretty?” I said, “My grandmother did. She says I’m a pretty negro.” And they would say, “Well, your grandmother’s lying,” and [00:07:00] to tell me my grandmother was lying was an instant ass-whooping, so I definitely got into some fights over that when I was a kid. So, I never had a problem with my nose, my lips, my hair, my ashiness, never had a problem with that. El Barrio at that time -oh. JJ: You’re talking about -- FL: It was a Black Puerto Rican community. Now I’m going back to my father’s family. Now, my father’s family was an interesting mix. My father’s family were 4 �all revolutionaries. My grandmother, Rosa, another Rosa, was one of the first followers of Albizu Campos. She escaped the masacre de Ponce in 1937. She was one of the few who got away. From what my father tells me, she -JJ: What was her name? FL: Her name was Rosa. JJ: Rosa. FL: Rosa Luciano. Rosa, Rosa, what was her last name? Alvarez is my family name on that side. [00:08:00] And when my father described it to me, he didn’t see any -- she died when he was 13. She had to sell her body from time to time to make money because that’s the way it was in Puerto Rico in her barrio of her class. She couldn’t make money, so she did that. My father was confronted with that several years later by some friends, some people who knew his mother, and he said he almost knocked the guy out, but in fact, it was true. My family’s always been street on that side of it. Her brother, Carmelo, ended up in the same nationalist party with Albizu and spent 10 years in Atlanta Penitentiary as a body guard for Albizu Campos. He stayed with him. His name is Carmelo Alvarez. I looked it up, and he’s there. My father from Vega Baja came to San Juan, stayed with his father, and it was traumatic for him because his father was not used to taking care of a kid. He went through a rough time, never quite learned [00:09:00] what the meaning of family was. Told me that he -- and I realized this as I got older, that he never really experienced what having a family was, certainly having a woman around, and that hurt him later on. So, now you have my paternal grandfather from Camuy, my maternal grandfather from Arecibo, and 5 �then they all come here. My grandmother comes on a boat and lands in Brooklyn, in Williamsburg, because in those days, the first Puerto Rican community was Williamsburg, Brooklyn. They were citizens already in 1917, so those who came, they came on these huge freighters, and they would drop some off in Ellis Island, and the rest would come to Williamsburg because that’s the way you did it. They were already citizens by 1917, the Jones Act. My grandmother came with a little piece of paper, and she looked for her friend or [00:10:00]a friend or a contact, found one, ended up on Front Street in Brooklyn. The building still stands to this day on Front Street. Before my mother died, we took her there, and she -JJ: Is this Williamsburg? No? FL: Williamsburg, yeah. And she, my mother, was so happy to see that building. She said, “That’s where I grew up. That’s where I was raised.” Her father, my grandfather, my maternal grandfather, was named Phillip, and he worked for the mob. And what he did is he did bathtub gin, and they say, this is just a legend, he was the best at it. I think historically, if we look at it culturally, Sicilians were the closest to Puerto Ricans because the language is very much the same. They look like us. They were dark, have curly hair, the works. And since they were in charge of the streets, the only way you could make money if you didn’t speak English and you didn’t have a job was to do the street thing, and so it would be like selling drugs [00:11:00] today, because it was illegal. Tell you a little story. He’s a very standup guy, from what I hear. His character was intact, very rigid, but he had integrity. I was doing a story one time as a reporter, and I had to do a 6 �story on a so-called mob infiltration of the South Street Seaport, which is where they handle the fish and distribute the fish in the city. I couldn’t get headways. The former Mayor Giuliani was asking them to move to the Bronx. They wanted them to relocate, and he was going to investigate them. There were loads of records in a huge warehouse. Those records suddenly spontaneously caught fire, and of course nobody could be indicted because all the records were gone. I’m trying to do a story on this fire, and I couldn’t get headway. And I’m up at six in the morning because I had to do three live shots for Good Day New York. And the six-o’clock [00:12:00] didn’t go so well. The seven-o’clock didn’t go so well. I had one more, the eight-o’clock. Our show ended at nine. And I get a nudge in the back from a young Italian kid with a grappling hook the longshoremen use, and he goes like this. And I figure, uh-oh, we’re in for some trouble.” And he says, “Is your name Felipo?” I said, “Yeah.” He said, “My grandfather’s watching you on live TV. He can’t believe that you’re the grandson of Phillip Luciano. You’re the grandson, right?” I said, “Yeah.” He said, “He told me to tell you your grandfather was a standup guy.” And he turns around to the guys, and he says, “Whatever he needs, you give him whatever, within reason.” (laughs) So, I got a great story about working-class Italian men and their trials and tribulations. It was a great story. But that’s how my grandfather was viewed by the boys of The Family, as we say in East Harlem. [00:13:00] Well, needless to say, we stayed with Italians mostly. We still have very good relationships with Italian Americans, with Sicilians in particular. And as they moved, we moved. So, Williamsburg got a little tough. We couldn’t afford the rent, according to my mother, so they 7 �moved. My father and my grandfather died, and they were poor. They were broke, so they went where the rents were cheap, and in East Harlem at that time, you could live for three months free because landlords were offering it because they wanted people -- the buildings -- it hadn’t been populated yet by Puerto Ricans. The Italians were slowly leaving. So, since Sicilians were going there and the Irish and the Jewish Americans and some of the Scandinavians, believe it or not, East Harlem used to be a very heavy Scandinavian neighborhood, left, Irish too. My grandmother decided to go to one of these apartments in there. She went, and we followed the Italians there. The earliest memories I have of East Harlem [00:14:00] are both wonderful and horrific, wonderful in that my grandmother, I had my mother, my grandmother. I remember my father, my aunts, and uncles who were just incredible. Each one of them had a personality. Each one of them was a character. So, it was wonderful, in that I felt totally, totally loved. I would get up in the morning, and I would smell the coffee grinds. I would smell the way made coffee in El Barrio. I would hear the music. We played trio music in those days. The Mexican trios were, and still are, considered sacred music to Puerto Ricans, Trio Los Panchos, Trio Los Astros, Ases, [con?] Marco Antonio Muñiz Muñiz, Vegabajeño, Trio Borinquen, all of those old things. And even then, I loved it. Later on, I didn’t want to get close to it because I thought it was hinky music. Now I have all, the entire collection of Trio Los Panchos. And I remember the familiarity, the family [00:15:00] atmosphere was just so much fun being in East Harlem. You always had a loving shoulder, a loving embrace. The men watched out for their kids. Families were together. 8 �There was a work ethic that was beyond description. I remember getting up every morning. When I got up early to go to school, men were going to work. They were going to the factories. Women were going to the factories, in the ’30s, between Sixth and Eighth Avenue, the textile factories. So, I never saw laziness. I never saw what they call poverty or victim behavior. Men stood up for their families. There were house parties. The music was fabulous. I grew up in the ’50s, so I remember Machito and his Afro-Cubans, who lived on 111th Street, and in fact, spans three generations. Before he died, he used to say, “I knew your grandmother; I knew your father, and now I know you.” And he knew my kids. It’s four generations of people that he knew. I grew up with Tito [00:16:00] Puente. I grew up with Tito Rodriguez. JJ: They were in your neighborhood? FL: No, no, Tito was from 110th Street, but he had already left, but Machito was still there. Tito Rodriguez was in Puerto Rico at the time. I loved it. So, A, I grew up with a tremendous sense of Négritude in being an Afro-Boricua. B, I grew up with a really refined ear because while my mother loved Latin music, my father loved jazz, so Billy Eckstine, Sarah Vaughan, Ella Fitzgerald, Gerald Wilson, Stan Kenton, Basie, Ellington were part of my -- Jimmy Smith, the big baritone horns, Gigi Gryce and Sonny Stitt, these guys were part of my background. Sonny Rollins and the others come later. Coltrane comes later. But that was it, Dizzy Gillespie, Chano Pozo. [00:17:00] In the ’50s, we also had, in the early ’60s, we had Johnny Pacheco with the pachanga. It was just -- Kako, Cortijo y su Combo. It was a tremendous time to be alive in El Barrio. And I don’t remember anything 9 �but love in that matrix. The one horrifying moment for me, traumatizing, is my father left. And I remember exactly when it happened. My mother had caught him with someone else. In those days, men strayed. It was part of the culture, almost institutionalized. You had your wife, and then you had your thing on the side. The difference was, is that my father pushed past the envelope. He had actually come into the community, and he was with her in the community, and people of course came and told my mother. And I remember my mother holding onto my arm and screaming at this woman -- she was a Jamaican woman -screaming at her, calling her -- I couldn’t believe it. My mother was Pentecostal and was holy, and the words that came out of my mother’s mouth. Well, after that, I knew it was over, and [00:18:00] I remember him coming in on an afternoon. It was an afternoon, a Saturday afternoon, and she had my had, and she said, “You’re not gonna come up these stairs. I don’t want you back in this house.” And I knew immediately it was over. I just knew. I knew we were in for a rough time. We were already going through rough times, but I didn’t really notice it because I had a mom and a dad. And I remember when, after they had made love, of course she never wanted this to happen, but I would run into the room because the air was full of love. And I don't know why people deny children the ability to be with them in intimate moments. I loved it. I don’t mean to be with them when they’re doing their thing, but I mean, it was just a lovely feeling. It was like star particles in the air, and I would jump in between my mother and my father, and I would just be in between them. And I couldn’t -- there was nothing -it was heaven, between my mom’s breasts and my father’s cross. He used to 10 �have a big cross. He was a boxer, so he’s pretty well defined, regular-looking guy. My father [00:19:00] always had this sense that I could do things. He never felt that I couldn’t, and I remember even at two, he would bring me a to Highbridge Pool, not too far from where we’re recording this, and he had taught me how to swim a little bit, and so I had to go from the middle of the pool, which is about 25 yards, to the end. And the first time, I choked. The second time, I choked. And then I told him, “Leave me alone, daddy. Leave me alone. Let me do it.” And I don't know how I got to the end, but I did, and he and I both congratulated each other, “Yeah, we did it!” And I didn’t need him to hold me under my stomach. My mother was more protective. I realized later on, my mother was never meant to be alone. She loved him dearly and continued to love him. She never went out with another man. I don’t understand this, but this is a breed of Puerto Rican women that was for one man only, and that was it. From what I hear and what she told me, [00:20:00] she really adored him, and he broke her heart. And she said that on that day, I was on the second-floor landing of the Johnson projects when she told him to leave. She said, “I was waiting for him to go up the stairs and push me out of the way and say, ‘This is my house. These are my kids. You are my woman.’” And she was sad that he didn’t. He was a strong guy. He wouldn’t take too much guff from anybody, but he wasn’t strong enough to do that. JJ: Can we get his name? FL: Jose Luciano. He’s now passed. It was traumatizing for me because I really needed my dad. It was a difficult time. And I knew when my mother was crying, 11 �tears were coming down her eyes, she, “I don’t want you to come up here.” And all he needed to do was, “Hey, it’s my house.” She said she wished that he could do that. She told me later that the reason she admired and respected me -- can you imagine a mother telling you this -- is because I would do stuff like that. I would say, [00:21:00] “I don’t care, mom. You could say what you wanna say. This is what I’m gonna do.” And I’d gently move her out of the way and do what I had to do. She said that’s what she admired most in me, my honesty, and I would never lie to her, whether I stabbed somebody. Whether I was high on drugs, whether I was in a gang fight, whether I had a woman in my room, two women in my room, whatever it was, I would tell her, “Mommy, this is what I’m doing, and this is what I’m happening.” So, my mother and I had a very tight relationship. She was 21 when she had me, so we grew up together basically. The beginning of the end was when he left, and I remember it because my mother lost a lot of confidence. We had to go on welfare. It was difficult. And I began to see what institutionalization can do and how an institution like welfare can destroy a spirit. We always had to struggle for clothes. We always had to struggle for food. I don't remember struggling before my father left. I was three when my father left, [00:22:00] but I remember before that, always eating. After that, eating was optional. Sometimes you had food, and sometimes you didn’t, and it was difficult for my mother. My mother was Pentecostal, so that helped her ease the pain. Evangelistic fervor helped her out, but it was a very repressive Pentecostalism. Women were not supposed to wear earrings, not supposed to wear pants. You couldn’t sit alongside men, very difficult situation for me. I don’t 12 �remember not being interested in sex. I don’t know this period that guys, little guys are supposed to have where they’re not interested. I was always interested in women, always. They were fascinating to me. And since I was always nurtured and loved by them, I became a bit spoiled. My grandmother thought I could do anything, and that, in the end, helped me tremendously, the love that she gave me. And my mother, even though I got whoopings, and I mean [00:23:00] I don't know how other cultures -- I know how other cultures handle punishment. Black folks, Southern in particular, will tell the child, “Go out and take a twig off the tree,” and hit you with the twig. Puerto Ricans are Spanish inquisitors. Theirs is torture. Theirs is you kneel down on a grate, on, you know, the grater you use for the cheese or on rice, and they beat you while you hold the Bible in your hands. It’s some sick stuff. My mother would make me smell the belt. She would say (Spanish) [00:23:32]. She would make me -- (Spanish) [00:23:35]. But before she would do that, she would say, “Take a bath,” because it hurts more on a wet body. I used to tell her, “Mommy, if there were child abuse laws, you’d be under the jail.” So, I got beaten a lot because I always rebelled. I was the oldest child. My mother had two more with my -- my brother and my sister, Margie and Paul, Paul and Margie. And I remember seeing the gangs, and that was where [00:24:00] -- I didn’t have a family. Remember, the family’s gone. I remember admiring these guys with club sweaters, with pompadours, mambo boots, tight pants, snap clothes, collars with thin, skinny ties, and how they protected us and how they seemed to be afraid of nobody. I remember admiring them even then. 13 �JJ: How old were you then? FL: Seven, eight. By the time I was nine or 10, I already knew what time it was. We played with the pump. We knew when to run when the cops came. It was already us and them. We already knew that we were poor. We already knew that cops were not our friends. JJ: This is in Harlem? FL: This is in East Harlem, in El Barrio. My mother made a conscious decision never to deny love, meaning that if -- in those days, Puerto Ricans [00:25:00] were very, very anti-Black. They moved away from anything that would suggest that they were Black or that they acted like Blacks, like American Blacks. My mother did just the opposite. My mother developed some very good friends in the Johnson project, Lorraine Mims, Marion, and she never allowed us to ever think that we were something other than we were. We were Puerto Ricans, and we were Black, not “but” we were Black, “and” we were Black. That was a wonderful thing. Now, the Puerto Rican community at that time would kinda look at her a little differently because she could easily move from talking with her Black friends from Charleston, South Carolina, and then going to speaking to some people from Ponce. She did it effortlessly. I do it to this day. I don’t even know when I’m moving from Spanish to English, from Black English to -- it is effortless for me. It’s the way I was raised. And by the way, I had many Black friends who were raised the same way. My babysitters [00:26:00] after my grandmother moved to California, my babysitters were all Southern Black women who taught me a lot about God, the God of the evangelical Black Southern tradition, and who 14 �gave me a sense of beauty and awe about God. Long story short, my grandmother decides one day -- I’m in the third grade now. My grandmother decides she wants to go to California. She’s tired of the affairs and all of the madness that her sons and daughters are putting her through. She goes to California with her youngest son Phillip. And she says she wants to take me with her. Now, there is a little-known law among Puerto Ricans that the grandmother has the right to take one child, even if you have a mother and father, but particularly if you have no man in your life, the grandmother has the right to take one. Now, in my grandmother’s case, I had an older cousin, but she liked me a lot because she was closer to my mother, [00:27:00] and she adopted me in a sense. So, she said, “And I’m taking Phillip with me,” and so me, my brother, my sister went, ended up in Wilmington, California, and I loved it. Even then, I had wanderlust. Even then, we traveled across the country for five days in a big, beautiful Cadillac, and I was in love. I saw Arizona. I saw deserts. I saw the wheat fields of Kansas. I mean, we went through the entire length of the United States. And we ended up in Wilmington, California, which I love. And for the first time, I was oil wells and palominos, Mexicans and Japanese, sun all the time. It was just a lovely time. I was in the fourth grade. We couldn’t make it, and we had to come back to New York. I was heartbroken. I tried to run away. I wanted to stay with my grandmother, and I definitely wanted to stay in California. Little did I know that my mother felt completely lost without me, she told me later. And I was the oldest boy, a little bright, [00:28:00] very, very precocious, so I had to go back with her. I was very annoyed that my mother wouldn’t let me go. I kept on 15 �saying, “Mommy, you don’t need me.” She said, “No, you don’t need me, but I need you.” And that was a strange set of circumstances. We come back to New York, and we ended up in the Foster projects with my aunt, which is Black and Puerto Rican area. And I started to learn how to fight. I never had to. Now, because I was in an area that was predominantly African American, it was a very different feel, though I was totally at home. We used to fight with our pinkies out like this, and it was guys like Cece and Big Ben and Junebug and Irving and all these cats who taught me to fight with my hands, chin in and my hands up. So, I learned how to fight, and boy -JJ: So, there was no conflict? So, it was just like playing fight? FL: No, yeah, it was playing, and we’d call ‘em champ battles, [00:29:00] but they were preludes to real fights. And the first real fight I had was in the sixth grade, I think. I had some minor scuffles, but the first one was John, over a girl, and he knocked me down, and I fell out. I acted like I was knocked out. Actually, I was too tired to continue fighting. And the guys from my building were watching me, and they say, “You’re never, ever gonna lose like this again.” So, they, for a year -- John Whitaker, his name was, by the way, a very smart brother, whose house I used to go to all the time. For a year, they would hit me suddenly, smack, so that I could always learn to block and block. It was fifth grade. By the time the sixth grade came, I challenged him to a fight outside and whipped him pretty bad, [00:30:00] due to the friends who taught me how to fight, how to block, and how simply not to be afraid. Puerto Ricans are traditionally very elegant, very noble people. They never wanted to confront. Black folk would confront, so I learned 16 �from them how to jump in your face and say, “Yeah, well, let me tell you something,” and not to listen to the words and the passion or the decibels of the scream. It meant nothing. Knock this boy out, and that was it. Harlem in those days, remember, I was much more at home. I remember the Muslims coming to 116th Street, the FOI, the Pompadours. (sneezes) Excuse me. It was a wonderful time to be alive. So, I learned another part of the side. Remember, I have the Puerto Rican side. Now I’m deeply immersed in African American. I remember Sweet Daddy Grace, I remember, who was a mystic or an itinerant preacher. And we had a Dominican gentleman, Black Dominican gentleman in the church that I grew up in, which is the first [00:31:00] Black Puerto Rican church, called Templo [Betel?], that new Billie Holiday, so he was swing. I mean, so I ended up with all of these influences, everything, Sam Cooke, Little Willie John, Johnny Ace, Tito Puente, Johnny Pacheco, Machito, I mean, all of it, and I’m just a sponge. Cracktop, we used to play tops, and skelly and ringalario and Johnny on a pony and all that stuff. Well, that had to end, so my mother decided that she had apply -- we were living with my aunt, and we decided to go to Brownsville. So, we go to Brownsville, and that’s when the gang situation came in. Now, I’m leaving Harlem and East Harlem, familial, close, everybody’s family, knew one another, and I go to Brooklyn. Brooklyn was warrior city. JJ: Why was it warrior city? FL: Brownsville, Brownsville. Because everything in Brooklyn was based on your pecking order, everything, whether you got lunch, whether your sister was going 17 �to be protected, [00:32:00] whether your family. Everything was based on whether you could fight and who you could hurt, and in Brownsville -JJ: Was it always like that? FL: Brownsville has always been like that. I don't know what -- Brownsville is where Murder, Incorporated started, so it’s been like that since Jews and Italians were there. There is something about Brownsville that nurtures crime, that nurtures warrior, that nurtures fighting. I tell people all the time, if you think that Harlem is rough, now you think Black folks from Harlem, try Brownsville. Brownsville is serious. They like that. They fight in the wintertime. I couldn’t stand fighting in the wintertime. My hands were too cold. But their thing was, “Throw your hands up, baby. We’re going at it, and we’ll shoot you to the cross.” So, Brownsville gave me a whole ‘nother patina as a warrior. I hated it. I was inferior a lot of the times, but I had a brother and a sister, and I had to protect them. So, I joined a group called the Frenchmen, and the reason I joined the group is my cousin came to me from Canarsie with a beautiful coat, and we were walking to his house, [00:33:00] and a guy put a knife to his neck. And I saw it almost puncturing his skin, and I ran to get my cousin. I say, “Hey, man, you’re gonna hurt him.” And the other, his friend, put a knife to my throat. I was not scared. For some reason, I was not scared. In my mind, I said, “I hope he kills me, because if he doesn’t, I will hunt this brother down.” I never saw them again, so they must’ve been from another community. They took his coat. After that, I said, “I’ll never let this happen again,” and I joined a gang called the Frenchmen, and I never looked back. I became a gangbanger, and I mean to the best to the 18 �best of my ability, we robbed pigeons. We beat up people, and I just -- all of the anger, all of the frustration in me was translated in gang activity. My mother knew something was wrong but not quite sure. We would walk. People would tell her, “Your son is in that gang, and I’ve seen him beating up people and him fighting all the time.” I said, “Mommy, that’s not true.” I lied. I never lied to my mother. One day, she said, “Something [00:34:00] is wrong here because every time we walk up to Livonia, we walk up to Blake or Sutter, you kinda hug me close,” because we’re walking into enemy territory. In those days, they didn’t hit your mother, so they left me alone. I said, “Ma, yeah, I’m in a gang. I’m in a gang. I have to do it to protect myself,” and so she knew that something was wrong. Simultaneously, I’m also very bright, didn’t know how bright I was. I had a teacher named Ethel Shapiro who literally saved my life. She saw that I was in a gang, saw that I was antisocial, saw that I was constantly moving into destructive behavior, and started nurturing me, and I mean nurturing me. Ethel Shapiro taught me the beauty of the English language. She also taught me Yiddish, taught me Jewish history. I became a Judaism freak. I mean, I learned everything about Judaism there was. She taught me the Shema prayer, “Here, O Israel, the Lord thy God is One. Shema yisrael Adonai eloheinu Adonai echad.” I’ll never forget it. She taught me Yiddish. She taught me how to eat sable. [00:35:00] She taught me how to eat whitefish. She taught me. I mean, she literally raised me as if I were her son. She would take me in the back and go through Torah with me, and the mitzvahs, and I learned words like meshuggeneh. She would say, “He’s meshuggeneh.” And I’d say, “What does that mean?” “It means he’s crazy.” I grew up, I had the 19 �best rabbinical education in the world. I ended up becoming very good friends with the Orthodox on Eastern Parkway, the Lubavitch, and I still have great friends there after all these years. I was a [jitterbug?], but I would go up there to see them. Can you imagine that sort of juxtaposition? Miss Shapiro gave me a sense of the possible, and so I learned that I had a brain, and I learned I could write, and she loved me into that. My mother was starting to get very scared. In fact, Miss Shapiro used to accompany me home all the time. My mother knew something was wrong. Miss Shapiro would hold my hand. I said, “Ethel don’t make me hold your hand. These are all Black men watching me.” She said, “So, you’re afraid of a white lady [00:36:00] holding your hand?” And sure enough, she’d walk me through the things after we did afterschool work. And my mother, fearing for my life, took me to California again. This time, we went to LA, and we lived in East LA, which was all Mexican at that time and all gang ridden. I loved it. I loved it because I was a novelty. Here was a Black guy who spoke Spanish and felt totally at home with Mexicans, totally. I had one fight. Of course, you have to have one fight to find who you are in school, went to Hollenbeck Junior High School, and became vice president of the second-largest school in LA in three months. Now, it’s difficult to explain this, but LA is so huge, that if you’re the second largest, it’s like a second city. It’s like a city. JJ: What was the name? FL: Hollenbeck Junior High. Ken Naganishi was president. The only reason he became president, I really got more votes than him, is because I hadn’t taken a civics course, or else I would’ve become president of the school. So, [00:37:00] 20 �here I am again in paradise. My antisocial behavior, my gang activity, I just dropped it like a bad habit, and I was proud. The gangs in the neighborhood in Aliso Village came to me to join, and I said, “I can’t join.” I said, “I’m not going to join, and I’ll tell you what we’re gonna do. If you guys are ever in real trouble, you can call on me, but for now I can’t because I just came from gangs. It would break my mother’s heart. Just do me a favor. Protect my family. You protect my family and leave my family alone, and I will always be there in extreme situations.” They said okay. I was doing well, shotput, junior shotput. I was running the full 40. They were already thinking of UCLA for me, even in junior high school. They said, “This kid is smart. He’s good.” I was going to go to Roosevelt High, but they wanted me to go to another school because Roosevelt was so gang ridden, blah, blah, blah. Went out with a Japanese girl, Ruth. I was in love. I just was happy. My mother couldn’t make it. Here was the turning point. I had told the guys that they had to protect my family. My cousin, who had been in a gang in Brooklyn, was sent to California. He was still into the gangbanging thing. And he went out with a girl who he was told not to go out with. Now, the way gangs work is there’s certain laws that you have to follow, and if a guy tells you, “Don’t mess with my girl,” you don’t mess with his girl. But he did because he thought he was a tough guy. He’s from New York, and he had an arrogant attitude, and they came up to me, Sparky, I’ll never forget, and said, “Your cousin is going out with my girl, man. I don’t like it, man. Please tell him to stop.” I said, “I’ll tell him, but don’t hurt him.” He said, “Okay, but you gotta tell him.” So, I go up to Jose, and I told him, “You can’t fool around with this girl. I 21 �mean, it’s not good for us. I mean, we’re under the aegis of this gang, and you’re --” “Oh, man, these punks ain’t gonna do it. They’re just California hicks.” Well, [00:39:00] they caught him one day, and they put a hatchet through the window. They almost killed him, and they came running to me. “Your cousin, they’re gonna kill your cousin.” I ran to the backyard. We had backyards in California, two-story houses for projects, if you can believe it. You had your own little house. And I said, “Sparky, you said you were not gonna hurt my cousin.” He said, “I told him, and I told you to tell him.” I said, “But that’s my cousin.” He said, “You told me to protect your brother and sister. That’s your cousin.” I said, “It’s still my family, man. That’s how Puerto Ricans roll. This is all family.” He said, “I don’t care. I’m not Puerto Rican.” And I hit him, bang. The whole group jumped on me. I just got one shot, but I caught him flush, and we were rolling. I put my arms under his armpits, and they were hitting me into him because I put my neck under his chest. And it was real bad. Now, they were trying to hit me with the hatchet, the same hatchet they tried to kill my cousin with. Everybody ran out. My mother ran out. My aunt ran out. Both of them fainted, speaking tongues, all that stuff. My little old grandmother [00:40:00] came out, four foot, I don't know, it was five-foot-one? I don’t know how she separated us. She was talking to Sparky in Spanish, and Sparky was saying, “Yes, ma’am. Yes, ma’am.” I’ll always remember his respect for her, “Yes, ma’am. Yes, ma’am.” But he started him, and she, (Spanish) [00:40:16]. And she was talking to us like that. He said, “Yes, ma’am. Yes, ma’am.” And when she separated a little more, I hit him again, bing, and then she turn around and smacked me. And he liked that 22 �because she was being fair. Then she invited us all in for Kool-Aid, and that was the end of that gang fight. We resolved it. But my grandma said, “I can’t have you guys here,” and she sent us back to New York, sent my mother too. I knew that it was time lights out for me, and I told my mother. I said, “Ma, if we go back to New York, I’m not gonna make it. I’m gonna be back in the gang, and I know it. I can feel it in my bones.” But we came back to New York, and within two years -- I was 14 -- by 16, I was in for murder. Somebody had [00:41:00] messed with my brother, a gang in Bushwick. We had moved to Bushwick, a hovel of a one-bedroom, rats. Oh, it was horrible. Bushwick was, oof. We lived on Granite Street. I met some good friends there, friends I still have, but it was a very difficult situation for me. JJ: You’re wanted for murder. Where did you go to? FL: We hurt this guy, and one of my friends stabbed him. I was the ringleader, so we all went up. I went to Elmira, and then I went to Coxsackie, which is, again, gladiator school, and did two years there, came out, miraculously. And when I came out, I was 18. Some teacher took some [HARYOU act?], sort of [antibody?] program, took a test at me, looked at my marks, and said, “This kid is smart,” and sent me to Queens College. There was a program for ex-cons there, because no other college would take me. CCNY rejected me. Brooklyn rejected me. But Queens College, way out in the sticks, I thought, Kissena Boulevard in Flushing, NY. I went there, [00:42:00] and I became one of the five cons who was in the program. All of us did well, by the way. And I didn’t know this, but I had a propensity for scholarship. I did very well. The first semester, I got an A- 23 �plus in philosophy, in fact, an elective course called Aesthetics run by a guy named John McDermott. Math was hard. I had to take physics for physics majors. I got a D-plus in that, and I was so happy I just got a D-plus. At least I passed. I did well. But I met a guy named Saul Resnick, who was a socialist, and he began to teach me about revolution. And after I read about the French Revolution, after I read about -- what was it -- The Federalist Papers, after I read about all of the major pamphleteers at the time, Franklin, Adams, Madison, the arguments, Rousseau, we were reading Marcuse. We were reading, I mean, just Mumford. I was involved in new thought. I was also reading Stokely Carmichael and Charles Hamilton, Black Power. I started teaching courses. Even though I was still in school, I was teaching Black power courses. So, as soon as I come out, I’m in Queens College, I join a group of poets called The Last Poets, and I become the first Puerto Rican member of that group, and the last, and we start going across the country doing -- we were the spawners. We’re the godfathers of the hip-hop movement. I meet Rap Brown, Stokely Carmichael, Field Marshall Donald Cox, Bobby Seale, James Forman. Rap Brown became my main (inaudible), best man at my first wedding, with Iris Morales. And [00:44:00] I was in. Now, eventually, the poetry led me into revolutionary activity. Puerto Ricans would come to The East Wing, which is the loft we had on 125th Street, and would keep on telling me, “Yes, you’re Black, but you’re Puerto Rican, and we need you here.” And I didn’t think Puerto Ricans were ready for armed struggle. I went through cultural nationalism with Amiri Baraka, who I still love and support and befriend to this day. We had a mutual defense pact. If they messed with his 24 �people, I would be there. If they messed with ours, he’d be there. He had a group called Committee for Unified Newark. Just imagine this now. Imagine the poetry. Imagine looking at Albert Ayler, Sun Ra, Leon Thomas, Pharoah Sanders, Nikki Giovanni, Barbara Ann Teer and the National Black Theatre. It was the most incredible time to be alive. At the same time, I was also listening to [00:45:00] Ginsburg down at the Nuyorican Poets Café. I would meet with him all the time. Ezra Pound lived on my block in the East Village. I was going out with different cultures, Ronni Brown, who was Jewish, who helped me run guns at that time, Joan Meinhardt, who was my teacher (laughs) at the time but who I loved dearly, who I left. JJ: What do you mean, “helped you run guns”? FL: Ronni, we needed -- Rap and I were building a cell. Rap was building a cell, and we needed guns. And we had to transport it from one place to another. Rap was never a racist, and he would say, “Well, if that’s your girlfriend, that’s your girlfriend, but we need a car.” And I sat with her, “Ronni, let me drive.” I said, “Let me drive.” I said, “Anything happens, I’ll say I stole it.” She said, “No. If anything’s gonna happen, I’m gonna drive the car because you can’t drive. You don’t have a license. I’ll drive it.” So, this little Jewish girl form Bayside, New York -- may she rest in peace; she died, and I loved her dearly, maybe didn’t show it as much as I should have, but I did -- [00:46:00] helped me transport the guns to Rap. Rap and I were part of an underground cell, along with Sam Melville, one of the finest bombers I’ve ever met, and a few other guys in that cell, and we did what we had to do. I never met a more brave warrior in my life, 25 �bar none, black, brown, white, yellow, polka-dot, red. Rap Brown was, and to me, still is, one of the finest warriors in America and taught me a lot and was the one who told me, “You got to go back into your own community.” And I said, “I’m not -- I’m here. I’m a Black Puerto Rican. I’m helping define cultural nationalism, revolutionary nationalism, socialism.” He said, “Felipe, your job here is done. You put the B in Black nationalism here on 125th Street, you, and Gylan Kain, and Amiri Baraka and Larry Neal and the Braith brothers,” the Braithwaites, I mean. We were doing tremendous jobs, organizing workshops, but he said, “Your job is [00:47:00] to go back to your community and work with it.” So, Mickey Meléndez, David Perez, Denise Oliver, Yoruba would come over, and I wasn’t part of the group yet, came over and got me, recruited me to start a group called La Sociedad de Albizu Campos, and we started there. JJ: What year was this? FL: This was late ’68. JJ: And where was that at? FL: Pardon me? JJ: Where did you start it? FL: Where did we start? JJ: Yeah. FL: In El Barrio. We would have meetings all the time. Little did they know that I had already started a group. I had been trying to work with Victor Hernández Cruz and another guy named George Rivera. I had already gone to Bobby Seale before I met these guys and tried to start a Puerto Rican group. I’d gone to 26 �Bobby and James Forman and a guy named Pennywell, if I’m not mistaken. And I said, “Bobby, I’d like to start --” Thank God, we got a meeting with him. I was in awe. He always very humble, very noble man, and he listened to me patiently. James Forman was looking at me with aspersion, looking at me like I was [00:48:00] not equal to him. Let me just put it to you that way. And he said, “What do you want to do?” I said, “We’re ready for armed struggle.” I had already bought my first rifle. I was ready. I can’t explain to you what it felt like at that time to see the destruction of a community in stages, just started crumbling right underneath you. The Barrio that I came back to after jail was not the Barrio that I had left, warm, familial, music, gangs that protected. This was a Barrio that was riddled with drugs, riddled with materialism, and everyone was looking out for themselves. Nobody was caring for families, older people, young people. I was in shock. I was traumatized, and I knew something had to happen. And I saw cops beating up dope fiends. It was horrible. Families were broken. Families that I knew had mothers and fathers suddenly were by themselves. The women were by themselves. So, I wanted to do something, and [00:49:00] I was caught up in the fact that King had died. King was killed. In fact, I left my teacher, Joan Meinhardt, because I couldn’t live with her. I just couldn’t. I just had to fight. I had to be as Black as I could, and she said, “You’re gonna get killed.” I remember leaving her house on Bank Street with her screaming in the background. It’s a hard image. Anyway, I went with Nikki, and I went with the other Young Lords, not Young Lords at the time, and we started cleaning up the streets. 27 �JJ: Before that, there was a couple other groups. Was it The Pickles or something? FL: Yeah, there was another group with Pickle. JJ: They were Young Lords too? FL: They were part of us. The original Young Lords was me, David Perez from Chicago, Pablo Guzmán, Juan Gonzalez, and Fi Ortiz. Three of us were Black Puerto Ricans, which was interesting because that had never happened before, [00:50:00] big ol’ fros. And we started recruiting. And then we had hooked up -Fi had introduced -- we had hooked up with Pickle. JJ: Yeah, because Fi was with Pickle, right? FL: Right, Fi was with Pickle. Fi was part of a gang thing, and so we had recruited him. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) was called the Young Lords, the gang? FL: No, it wasn’t called the Young, not that I know of anyway. But these were good guys, and I liked them, and we got along pretty well. And we all came together. Eventually, through attrition, people began to -- because we began to really deal with scholarship, began to deal with reading, began to deal with a refining period, and a lot of street guys either couldn’t or wouldn’t handle it. So, we realized as we were organizing that we’re spending more and more time on the streets than in classroom. We had to make a decision, and it was a difficult decision to make, not for me. I was definitely afraid of exams. I had got a D-plus in physics, so I didn’t want to go through that again. I left college. It was a [00:51:00] tremendous amount of anger in me. JJ: So, you guys were the organizers. 28 �FL: We were the organizers, the primary organizers for us. There were three colleges involved, CCNY, which is where we’re taping this today; Queens College, me; Nikki had gone there for a while; and the University of Old Westbury, which is where we got Denise Oliver, Pablo Guzmán, and David Perez, and [Moon?] too and a few others who had been there. Before I go any further with this, I should add, and this may come as a shock to most people, one-third of the party was African American, all supporting Puerto Rican independence. So, that nonsense that you cannot have people from other cultures supporting your particular ideological aims and vision is not true. The one-third of that group were all Muslim, so think about that. My brother, Lucky, [00:52:00] older brother, was one of the first Puerto Rican Muslims here in New York City. He’s dead now. Now we realize we’ve got to do something. We start with, I had a little group called the Harlem Action Committee, a little anti-poverty program we start. We asked the people, what do they need? And we really meant this. We took a little poll. [And we told the viejitas?], and I thought they were going to say they was tired of our kids being beaten up by police. I thought were going to talk about welfare. I wanted something that was a real target, something that was romantic and bold and violent. They told us, “Could you just pick up the garbage? Could you get the sanitation department to pick up the garbage?” My ego was so deflated. I mean, that just took the wind out of my sails, but that’s what the people wanted. Number-one lesson in revolutionary activity, listen to the people. Listen to their wants, their needs, and their visions. It’s the first thing you gotta do. So, of course, we decided to test it. We 29 �[00:53:00] swept, and we’d put the garbage in plastic bags and put them on the corner very neat. First weekend, nobody came. They would come Tuesday. Now, after a weekend of summer activity, and as you know, we drink a lot of beer, it smelled a lot. So, what we did is we decided to test it to a second week, and we did it again. By the second week, we had had it. JJ: Is that once a week or -- FL: Yeah, it was a once-a-week pickup and particularly on weekends, and they weren’t coming that many times. And if it was a two-time-a-week thing, it wasn’t enough for the garbage that was being produced. JJ: That you swept. FL: Yeah, that we swept. So, there was also community garbage. So, the first thing we needed to do was get brooms, and we went to a garbage station, and we told the guy, “Look, we need brooms.” [00:54:00] I remember this guy, kinda portly, who looked at us with such disdain. I said, “Well, could you give us some brooms? Could you let us borrow ‘em? We’ll bring ‘em right back.” “Who the hell are you?” Now, remember, I’m from jail. I don’t fear anything but God, and He and I have problems. This guy was telling me I couldn’t. I just pushed him, boom, to the side. And I remember the looks on the Lords, because I think they were thinking the revolution was romantic and that you could talk about it, but you can’t do it. But I’m coming from the Brooklyn House of Detention, where cats are getting raped, and we’re talking about [yaku?] and the white man and 66 million years of caveman activity, and Black men should do for self, and I’m coming out of the projects, where everything was about confrontation. This man 30 �was not a problem. We went and took the brooms, and we brought ‘em back. One thing I will add is that every time a leader [00:55:00] makes a moves or makes a move that is out of the ordinary for the group, something happens to the group. They begin to see him a little differently, some envy, some jealousy, just light, and it’s almost unconscious. But the seeds of the destruction of the Lords started right around there. But I’ll give you some other examples, and we gotta go because you gotta get outta here. JJ: Yeah, we’ve got about 15 minutes. FL: Okay. We put the garbage on the streets. Sanitation didn’t come. We put the garbage on the streets, and it stopped traffic. We didn’t know that when you stop traffic, you stop commerce. We did that for several weeks running. It was called The Garbage Offensive. And when the cops started realizing that we were going to do this every Saturday or every Friday evening, they decided to come in squads of sanitation men and police cars and throw the garbage out and put it into the garbage. [00:56:00] So, what we did is we set fire to them, and so they could do it, towering 10 feet of fire. That was the first offensive we had. The second offensive was the church. We started doing breakfast program based on what the Panthers had done. We decided to build a breakfast program. It was enormously successful. We were having a problem delivering food, just didn’t have enough, and when we went to the bodegueros, they would give us a hard time. Sometimes they would give it to us out of, you know, ay bendito stuff. I get a call from a guy, one of the street guys I knew, said, “Felipe, somebody wants to talk to you down the block.” Now, the only guy down the block was the mafia 31 �guy. So, I went down there into his warehouse, and he says, “I like what you guys are doing.” He was half Puerto Rican, half Italian. He said, “I like what you guys are doing. You’re not messing with any of our businesses.” Because I asked him, “Why am I here? Did we do anything? Is there [00:57:00] something we need to resolve?” He said, “Nah, take it easy. Sit down.” And he kept on looking on me. He said, “You need anything?” Now, when the boys ask you, “Do you need anything,” you know there’s going to be a quid pro quo, so I said no. He said, “You sure?” And something in me said, “Tell him.” I said, “We’re having a hard problem getting food.” He said, “Like what?” I said, “Orange juice, milk, bread, eggs, bacon.” Shook his, just going like that with his head. He said, “How much do you need?” I said, “A lot. We serve a lot of kids.” He said, “Tomorrow, you’ll have no problem. Go to any store in East Harlem, no problem.” The same bodegueros who gave us hard times and sometimes would curse us, had the stuff ready for us when we got there, which just shows you the power of power, the nature of power. He had put the word out, “Give these kids anything they want.” Our breakfast program was tremendously successful. Then we went on to a garbage offensive, I’m sorry, to a hospital offensive, and we took over Lincoln Hospital [00:58:00] because so many people were dying. We had found out that a Puerto Rican woman had died from a simple scraping, and we decided to take that hospital over. We took over a TV truck. But going back to the breakfast program, we couldn’t find a place to cook the food. And we went to this one guy, the First Spanish Methodist Church on 111th and Lexington. I remember I used to go to preschool there. And the Cuban minister told us that we were 32 �Castro-ites and that we were not to be even tolerated, threw us out. So, for six weeks, we went there, and on the seventh week, I couldn’t take it anymore. I stood up to talk on testimonial Sunday. I ran to the front of the church. The cops told me, “If you don’t --” He had cops in the church, the minister, made sure that he had cops there. We were shocked because this was supposed to be a sanctuary. We didn’t want to hurt them. Well, he told me, “Well, Mr. Luciano, it’s either here or outside.” I said, “Well, then we’ll do it right here,” and that’s when they began to beat the hell out of me. It’s the second-worst beating I’ve gotten in my life. I almost fainted. [00:59:00] There was a little voice that said, “Go to sleep.” By the way, when the voice tells you, “Go to sleep,” don’t go to sleep. I caught one in the face. I caught another one with my elbow, but I was overwhelmed, and they broke my arm in two places, and they gave me about eight stitches, seven, eight stitches in the head. I was a little in shock because the other Lords were in the back, and they were looking from the pews. I was hoping that I’d get some help. I began to realize the limits of revolutionary fervor. I was a true believer, coming out of a Pentecostal background. Thirteen of us were arrested. That gave us a reputation worldwide. It went around the world. Jane Fonda came to our church. We opened up the church. Oh, what happened is they bust us; they tell us we can’t go back to the church, so the next week after they arrest us and beat us up, we took the church over, and we opened it up for breakfast. JJ: That’s when people got arrested or -- 33 �FL: No. The people got arrested the first time. [01:00:00] After we took over the church, we kept it open for a month or two, and they arrested all of us. JJ: That’s what, about 100 people who were arrested? FL: Yeah, in the second, after we had finished the breakfast program. There was some voices of dissension. We were having some problems. A, we had guys that were -- I believed that certain people should never be allowed to join the party, particularly those who talked a lot but weren’t ready to throw down. One guy came into our office and said, “I could make bombs outta bulbs,” and said just too much. And I told him, “Either you’re an agent or a fool.” His name was Julio Roldan. He got busted on one of the last garbage offensives and couldn’t handle it. [01:01:00] Incarceration is a very strange thing. I’m not putting this on him. I’m just saying that some people can handle this; some people can’t. He hung himself. The Lords lied. I was already out of power. The reason I was out of power, I was demoted, is because I had made love to -- Yoruba and I went to a woman’s house. They were informants. We didn’t know it at the time. And I went to their house, and they started talking to me. Yoruba went into the room with one. I went in, stayed in the living room with another, and she gave me some pot. The pot immediately got me sick and woozy. I did not feel well. I almost felt suicidal. I told her, “The window is too open. Can you close it?” She opened it up even more. I didn’t know it, but I was being drugged by PCP, and I found that a lot of revolutionaries had been drugged like that. And it must’ve been a massive dose because I had only taken two puffs. [01:02:00] Something in me said this woman is an agent, and it’s too late for me. I couldn’t move. And 34 �I said, “You got me up here. You better bring me down.” Somehow, I stayed up 12 hours, and I threw up. Now, after I threw up, for some reason, I wanted to get back at -- I wanted to conquer, and so I made love to her, or whatever you call it. I don’t think it was love. Yoruba walks in, sees me. Pablo sees me. I knew that there was some sort of jealousy maybe, envy, with most of the guys. I saw this in the Central Committee. I was a two-fisted bro, which is what we needed at that time. There were people in the party who told me that the guys who were Central Committee members at the time, while they liked me, they weren’t exactly in love with me. But the liked the fact that I could lead people and that I had a very good touch with folks in the street. [01:03:00] So, Yoruba comes in and sees me on this woman, and he’s in shock, and he goes right back into his room. I get up. It’s all over. As we were going back home, we were supposed to report every 24 hours, and we hadn’t. And as we’re coming out, I said, “Pablo, don’t tell. Don’t go to the party office and say anything. I will tell.” I was married to Iris Morales. I was married to one of our party members. And Yoruba goes right back to the office and tells everybody. So, from a street point of view, he was wrong. From a revolutionary point of view, he may have been right, but I thought we had a relationship. And he should’ve said, “Let Felipe explain it to you. Let the chairman explain what happened. I’m not going to say anything ‘til he comes.” Didn’t happen that way. Well, I was accused of male chauvinism. The party got into my business, the relationship that I had with Iris. JJ: (inaudible) male chauvinism because you were married? 35 �FL: Because I was married, and I went [01:04:00] with this white girl. This is no justification, and there’s no reason to bring this up, but I’ma bring it up. Everybody was doing everybody in the party, even dope fiends. The majority of the defense department were all drug addicts, and they were [screwing with?]. In those days, AIDS was not thought of, so people had boyfriends who were drug addicts. Denise had one. Myrna had one. We had a lot of -- it was okay. It was the way. You know, drug addicts were part of our family. Anyway, I was accused of male chauvinism and unclear politics, and I was demoted. The demotion was so severe to me. I put my lifeblood into this organization. And to make a long story short, Julio Roldan is -- so, I’m demoted, and I feel just such enmity, such venom, vitriol from the people that I helped organize. So, in the interim, the party had decided to [01:05:00] take over the People’s Church again with guns because Julio Roldan had killed himself, and they lied and said that Julio Roldan was killed by police. It was a lie. Yoruba knows it was a lie, will admit to it to this day. And they used that as an organizing tactic. I would’ve never agreed with that. You never lie to the people. They take over the People’s Church with guns, some of the guns that I had bought, and they take over the People’s Church, and people rally to their cry. It was romantic. It was the worst move they could’ve made. When I walked into the People’s Church with the guns, I noticed that kids, that the members, high-ranking members were not supposed to be (inaudible). I said, “Well, who’s here? Who’s gonna fight it out?” There was nobody of any importance. I said, “This is ridiculous.” I got very pissed off at the way it was handled. I thought there was no planning in it. [01:06:00] It may have been 36 �romantic. And I saw a kid, about 12, with a break-over shotgun, a break-gun shotgun, just taking 30-caliber bullets, and it was sliding. He said, “I wonder why this is happening.” I said, “My God.” I remember asking David, “David, how are you gonna escape? Do you have access? Do you have access?” And he goes, “You have an escape plan. Before you think of any battle, you think of strategy, tactics, and possible escape routes.” He said, “We’re gonna drill through the wall into the subway.” I knew he had already developed what we call siege mentality, where you think the impossible is possible. But what really got me mad is nobody in the Central Committee was going to be in there when the cops came, when the shooting was going to start. So, I had called a meeting, Pi and I. I said, “I can’t believe how cowardly you guys are, how ill-planned this is, illconceived. I’ve seen things I would never have believed that you would plan it this way. Are you trying to compensate for me not being here [01:07:00] anymore? Are you trying to tell people you’re tough guys? There’s a way to do this, and this is not the way.” And I took my beret and threw it into the middle of the room. Nobody moved. Pi and I were pretty good with our hands. But they could’ve moved. They didn’t. And I left. Immediately after, about three months after, I hear that Pablo’s going out with -- and I knew this was COINTELPRO. COINTELPRO was working overtime. Yoruba’s now going out with Iris, and in those days, I was a Puerto Rican macho, and I was going to kill him. Thank God I didn’t. I loved his mother; I loved his father, and I love him. I love Iris. I love all of the Young Lords, and while we may have had our differences, I think we were divinely ordained to do what we had to do. So, just to show you how still into the 37 �streets I was, I had a knife. I was ready to stab Yoruba because he was going with Iris. Oh, my God. [01:08:00] Thank God. Here’s the end of my story. As I’m ready to stab him, I was looking for the right spot in his neck to stick the knife into the jugular, and the former defense department that I knew were waiting on a line, three of them, to put me into a car to drive me to safe houses that Mickey Meléndez was supposed to have set up. As I’m ready to stab him, I just happened to look in the sky. Went like that just to get him off focus so that I can - when you go like this and the other person goes like that, and you go bing, and I saw the New York Post, and I swear to you, I said, “YLP destroyed by love triangle,” and I said, “Oh, my God. This is the government.” Even if it were true, first of all, no man has a right to tell a woman who to make love to. If you’re separated from her, that’s it, and no is no. And I remember Iris saying, “You think you’re so tough.” [01:09:00] I remember her, hearing her voice. “He’s softer than you,” or, “He’s not as hard as you.” The voice was slowly -- I said, “You deserve each other,” and I left them both, and I walked away. I am very happy I didn’t kill that boy. He’s a great reporter for CBS. He’s a great writer. It would’ve destroyed his mother and his father, whom I loved dearly. His kids wouldn’t have had a father. Iris has turned out to be a great lawyer. She now runs MNN, the public TV. And everyone turned out fairly well, with the exception of the defense department, all the drug addicts, Bobby Lemus. These are the guys that I feel them; I live with them, Robles, Bobby Lemus, Georgie Littleman, my brother Lucky, GI, Frenchie, [01:10:00] Huracan. These were all of the people who didn’t make it. That is, after the Lords, the subsequent illnesses that develop out of 38 �heroin addiction killed them all. But they’re the ones that I owe a great deal of gratitude for, and they’re the ones I love. And to this day, my mission, as I’m in seminary school right now -- I’m in the last year of my master’s program in Union Theological Seminary -- my mission is to those, the marginalized, the criminal, so-called, the oppressed. I’m not interested in the do-gooders, the nice kids, the predisposed. I want hardcore, men and women who just, it’s like this, who do or die. Those are the ones I love, and those are the ones I’m committed to. JJ: Any final thoughts, or that was it? [01:11:00] FL: My final thoughts are I wish that the Young Lords would get over the past. We continue to hurl accusations at each other that have kept our community from moving forward and us from moving forward. We need to heal old wounds. We need to say, “I’m sorry,” because after my demotion, the Lords ended up in a feeding frenzy. They beat each other up over who spoke Spanish and who didn’t. Many of the Black members left because they felt unwelcome. We went through a cultural nationalism phase. We went to Puerto Rico, which was illconceived, bad. And we began to eat each other up. Remember that when you cut off leadership, I’m not saying it’s just for me, but when you cut the head off and don’t try to nurture leadership, while I may not have been the best, I knew I was good at what I did. They also cut themselves off from community, which was my forte. It’s not that I’m better. Everybody has a gift. [01:12:00] Yoruba’s gift is public relations. Yoruba could get press when anybody could. Juan was a great strategist. David was a fantastic community person. [Jíbaro?] up to the bone and gave us that Puerto Rican edge. And Fi was a great gang person, and of 39 �course I was an orator, so we had a wonderful conglomeration of great people. Eventually, we also had to remember that we didn’t have women, so Iris came in, and Denise came in, and Gloria came in. And of course, they started blaming a woman named Gloria for having engendered all of the problems in the Lords, which are not true. They allowed it to happen. And we ended up killing, hurting each other. COINTELPRO was behind every one of those moves, every one of those moves that helped to destroy the party. My last thoughts are that we’re now in our 60s. If we could just tell each other how much we love each other, Fi, David, Iris, Richie Pérez is now dead, but if we could just get [01:13:00] by this and say, “Look, I forgive you,” as I do, Pablo, as I do, Iris, as I do, Pi, as I do, Huey, as I do all of them. If we could just say, let us now begin to work on a new version and leave a legacy of love, militancy, intelligence, scholarship, and revolutionary activity for our children so that our kids could get to know each other, so that our communities could heal, we need to do that. And so, if I could say anything to whoever’s watching this, and to the Lords who may be watching this, is that let’s get past the past. We are new creatures. Let’s forgive each other. Let’s walk hand-in-hand into that new future. JJ: Thank you very much. END OF VIDEO FILE 40 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/1a1ebf1a457114216024c6b0eeb2757a.mp4 b036a1f968ea849b57c6a00533bca272 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Felipe Luciano vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry La historia oral de Felipe Luciano, entrevistado por Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez el 3/15/2013 acerca de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Mexico-Americanos--Illinois--Chicago--Condiciones sociales Relaciones raciales Conflicto social Identitad cultural Partido Pantera Negra. Illinois Capí­tulo Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Luciano_Felipe Title A name given to the resource Felipe Luciano video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Luciano, Felipe Description An account of the resource Oral history of Felipe Luciano, interviewed by Jose 'Cha-Cha' Jimenez, on 3/15/2013 about the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jimenez, Jose, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Mexican Americans--Illinois--Chicago--Social conditions Race relations Social conflict Cultural identity Black Panther Party. Illinois Chapter Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2013-03-15 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/fef0262e01bf83de9cd06a991af336f7.pdf 5f1e8b808a341d7755c9bcb7376308af PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Higinio Lazano Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 7/12/2012 Biography and Description Higinio Lozano arrived in Chicago and settled in the La Clark neighborhood in 1947. He later moved to North Avenue and Sedgwick in Old Town, right across the street from Lincoln Park, and lived there until the 1980s. Mr. Lozano is considered the official “Grandpa” of the Young Lords because he does not miss any of their events including socials, funerals and weddings. Several of his children were part of the Young Lords including his daughter, Yolanda Lucas, who held a top leadership position within the Young Lords. Ms. Lucas is also the mother of Alejandro “Alex” Jiménez, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez’s only son. Alejandro Jiménez is now an adult who went to Truman College, has sold insurance and other products, and has even worked for the Northwest Community Organization, a neighborhood group known for their grassroots activism, especially around housing concerns.Ms. Lucas and Mr. José Jiménez separated after the Jiménez for Alderman Campaign when pressures contributed to Mr. Jiménez‘s relapse. Circumstances related to divorce, safety, distance, the Young Lords, and repression prevented a more traditional type of family communications. Communication was nearly non-existent and usually done in public places, which became cannon fodder for those without clear understanding, and who loved to be involved in gossip. This contributed even more to the pain of a child. But Mr. Lozano provided needed support to Alex and to the Young Lords group. Ms. Lucas remains very close to the Jiménez family and now there is also a granddaughter, Alessandra.Mr. Lozano is always happy go lucky and the biggest flirt �ever, who will not miss a beat on the dance floor. His son, Albert, was a salsa king at the Rico’s Club that Young Lord Angie Adorno owned, and which many Young Lords and others from Lincoln Park patronized. Mr. Lozano is the typical Puerto Rican joker who will catch your every weakness. And his politics are soft spoken. One does not realize how clear he is on Puerto Rican politics. He knows racism firsthand and what Mayor Daley did to Puerto Ricans; removing them from the lakefront and downtown. He saw it with his own eyes. But he is patient enough to wait until you can see it. � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c51ed84d78f79661ee4462ca3c646aac.mp4 5ede4c2dfd329696b549ef043cf877bc Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Higinio Lazano vídeo entrevista y biografía Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Lozano_Higinio Title A name given to the resource Higinio Lazano video interview and biography Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Lazano, Higinio Description An account of the resource Higinio Lozano arrived in Chicago and settled in the La Clark neighborhood in 1947. He later moved to North Avenue and Sedgwick in Old Town, right across the street from Lincoln Park, and lived there until the 1980s. Mr. Lozano is considered the official “Grandpa” of the Young Lords because he does not miss any of their events including socials, funerals and weddings. Several of his children were part of the Young Lords including his daughter, Yolanda Lucas, who held a top leadership position within the Young Lords. Ms. Lucas is also the mother of Alejandro “Alex” Jiménez, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez’s only son. Alejandro Jiménez is now an adult who went to Truman College, has sold insurance and other products, and has even worked for the Northwest Community Organization, a neighborhood group known for their grassroots activism, especially around housing concerns.Ms. Lucas and Mr. José Jiménez separated after the Jiménez for Alderman Campaign when pressures contributed to Mr. Jiménez‘s relapse. Circumstances related to divorce, safety, distance, the Young Lords, and repression prevented a more traditional type of family communications. Communication was nearly non-existent and usually done in public places, which became cannon fodder for those without clear understanding, and who loved to be involved in gossip. This contributed even more to the pain of a child. But Mr. Lozano provided needed support to Alex and to the Young Lords group. Ms. Lucas remains very close to the Jiménez family and now there is also a granddaughter, Alessandra.Mr. Lozano is always happy go lucky and the biggest flirt ever, who will not miss a beat on the dance floor. His son, Albert, was a salsa king at the Rico’s Club that Young Lord Angie Adorno owned, and which many Young Lords and others from Lincoln Park patronized. Mr. Lozano is the typical Puerto Rican joker who will catch your every weakness. And his politics are soft spoken. One does not realize how clear he is on Puerto Rican politics. He knows racism firsthand and what Mayor Daley did to Puerto Ricans; removing them from the lakefront and downtown. He saw it with his own eyes. But he is patient enough to wait until you can see it. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-07-12 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/a446b8f3124852dd3b8d9ca7c8de44a3.pdf 14caa5948a92766b2ce18af8dd9b04c7 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Obed López-Zacarias Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 3/2/2012 Biography and Description English Obed López-Zacarias is founder of the Latin American Defense Organization (LADO) that operated primarily from the late 1960s until the mid-1970s, organizing for a caseworker union and for the dignified treatment of welfare recipients at the Wicker Park Welfare Office of Chicago. LADO was also instrumental in helping to develop the Segundo Ruiz Belvis Cultural Center, the longest standing Puerto Rican Cultural Center in the city of Chicago. Mr. López-Zacarias worked closely with the Young Lords, including the protest at Fat Larry’s real estate office at Armitage and Bissell Streets, in various demonstrations at the Wicker Park Welfare Office, and many others. To give one example, Fat Larry’s Bissell Realty was well connected with the local neighborhood Lincoln Park mafia and the old patronage boss system of Paddy Bauer and on at least one occasion, Fat Larry pointed a sub machine gun at a Puerto Rican restaurant tenant who was late on his rent. The Young Lords were informed about the incident and marched in a snowstorm accompanied by members of LADO to picket in front of his office. When some representatives of the picket entered the real estate office, Fat Larry pointed his gun at José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. Then he ran and locked himself up in a back office until the police arrived. The police arrived and immediately searched Mr. Jiménez for �weapons. Meanwhile, a LADO photographer documented the entire event and published many of those photos in the LADO newspaper the following week. 20,000 copies were circulated widely by the Young Lords in the Latino section of Lincoln Park. Mr. López-Zacarias became the official envoy sent to the Presbyterian Conference in Texas by the Young Lords and the Lincoln Park Poor People’s Coalition, during the McCormick Seminary occupation in 1969. When the occupation was over and all the demands were won, LADO received $25,000 to open up a free community clinic where many of the Latin Kings volunteered. The clinic was located on North Ave. near Western in the Wicker Park neighborhood. Spanish Obed López Zacarias es el que fundió el Latin American Defense Organization (LADO), que empezó desde los 1960s hasta los medio 1970s, organizando para una unión de asistente social y por tratamiento digno con los quien reciben ayuda del Estado en la oficina de Wicker Park Welfare en Chicago. LADO también fue instrumental en el desarrollo del Segundo Ruiz Belvis Centro Cultural, que es el Centro Cultural Puertorriqueño más viejo en chicago. Señor López-Zacarias trabajo cerca con los Young Lords, incluyendo el protesto en la oficina de Fat Larry en Armitage y Bissell Street, igual que otros. Para dar un ejemple, Fat Larry’s Bissell Realty era buen conectada con la mafia de Lincoln Park igual que Paddy Bauer, y por lo menos una ocasión Fat Larry directo un pistola al rentero puertorriqueño porque estaba tarde en pagar la renta. Los Young Lords se informaron de la ocasión y marcharon con miembros de LADO a la oficina de Fat Larry. Cuando un representativo entro a su oficina, Fat Larry directo su pistola a José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. Luego corrió y se encerró en una parte de su oficina hasta que la policía llego. La policía inmediatamente cacheó a Señor Jiménez por armas. Un fotógrafo capturo todo la ocasión y publico muchas de las fotos en el periódico de LADO la próxima semana. 20,000 copias fueron circuladas por los Young Lords en la sección Latina de Lincoln Park. Señor López-Zacarias fue a la conferencia de Presbyterian en Tejas para ser el ministro público para los Young Lords y la Lincoln Park Poor Peoples Coalition, durante la McCormick Seminary ocupación en 1969. Cuando la ocupación termino y las exigencias ganadas, LADO recibió $25,000 para abrir una clínica que es gratis para la comunidad donde muchos de los Latin Kings volantearon. La clínica fue construida en North Ave, cerca de Western en el vecindario de Wicker Park �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, do you want to give me your name? OBED LOPEZ-ZACARIAS: I am -- in English, right? JJ: In English. (inaudible) OL: Okay, yeah, right, right. I am Obed Lopez-Zacarias. Obed, O-B-E-D, LopezZacarias. Zacarias is my mother’s last name, and Lopez is my father’s name, of course. I was born in San Luis Potosí, which is a state and city in the central part of Mexico. San Luis Potosí, it has a reputation of -- well, has played an important role several times in the history of Mexico. [00:01:00] One of the documents of the revolution is -- the 1910 revolution was called the Plan de San Luis Potosí. San Luis Potosí is a very conservative city. I suppose you could say that Catholicism is the main religion, and it was, again, very conservative. So, for me, it was the first experience of really being in the minority because my parents converted to [00:02:00] Protestantism when they were young, when they got married. So that all of us were raised in a non-Catholic setting. I believe that is one of the things that began to shape my personality because we felt -- we were outsiders. I mean, when there were Fiestas patronales, we were not part of that. (laughs) And I don’t know if it was my imagination or not, but I have a recollection of from time to time our house being the object of stones thrown at us. I don’t know. Maybe it’s my imagination. But that gives you a sense of our feeling of not being part of the culture of San Luis Potosí. JJ: So, how many siblings? Because you said ours, how many siblings? [00:03:00] 1 �OL: I’m sorry? JJ: How many siblings, brothers and sisters? OL: In all, there were eight brothers and sisters, three sisters -- [Omar Naum?], the youngest, and I have another brother called [Asael?], only Biblical names. After Asael came, I came, and then, [Ephraim?], and then our three sisters, [Naomi?], [Prisilla?], and [Deborah?]. My oldest brother was [Hector Javier, Hector Javier?]. Hector was the first one in the family that came to Chicago. [00:04:00] Sometime in, talking to him -- JJ: What year did he come? OL: Actually, it was towards the middle ’40s, I think maybe the end of the ’40s. But he mentioned that, while he loved the university life, the only thing is that, you know, when you’re in the university, there all kinds of cultural activities or social activities. And very soon he realized that, well, that he didn’t have the means to fully participate because even though my father was employed, he was a railroad worker, which at that time was a very -- one of the few jobs that were well paid. JJ: Here, or -- OL: In Mexico, in Mexico. [00:05:00] JJ: And your mom? What did she do? OL: My mother -- she raised us. That was a full time job for her. (laughs) You know, (inaudible). And my mother came from a place called Santa Maria del Rio in San Luis Potosí, and my father from a rancho called San Francisco del Rincón in Guanajuato. So, they met -- my father soon -- I don’t know how, but he got connected with a missionary, [Francisco H. Soltero?], who was the founder of our 2 �denomination in San Luis Potosí. And it was called Iglesia de los Peregrinos. [00:06:00] But then, again, my brother very soon saw that he could not really afford university life. He didn’t have the means to participate in all these things. So, at one point, he and about -- I suppose about 10 other friends of his that were going to the university decided to come to Chicago. And so, that’s how we began. He was in Chicago for several years before my oldest sister, Deborah, joined him. Deborah was a private accountant, contadora privada, privada. [00:07:00] So, she came. When she came to Chicago, she found employment with -- I think he was a Cuban editor of Spanish ancestry. I remember his last name was [Radelat?]. So, that’s how they established themselves in Chicago. Then eventually -JJ: This was in the ’40s? OL: I think it was more in the ’50s, yeah. So, it was finally -- JJ: In what area? Do you know what area of Chicago? OL: They always lived in the North Side, in fact on Humboldt Boulevard. Well, Humboldt Boulevard, as you know, has gone through cycles. They were the first Mexicans that came to live in that area. [00:08:00] JJ: In the Humboldt Park area? OL: Yeah. And the people that rented to them were Lithuanians, also immigrants. I think that’s why they were kind of sympathetic to them. Then they were fortunate. When they came, they came with all their documentation. They didn’t have to go through the pain and suffering of people who have to cross without any documentation. And then, they brought the whole family. I remember that 3 �when I came I must have been about 17 years old. And I was interested in continuing my education. And I remember that one day -- I think I answered some ad for English classes. And a man that was selling whatever method they had came. [00:09:00] And then, Hector said, my oldest brother said he might as well take me to a day school, that happens to be [Wells?] High School. So, he took me there. At that time, the principal was -JJ: This was what year? OL: Probably it was ’57 or ’58. At that time, the principal of the school was a very fine gentleman. I think he lived for many years in Spain, and I think also Puerto Rico. His name was [Dr. Edwin Goodrich?]. He was a very [00:10:00] kind man. And when I came for -- I think I wanted to be in the music class, and they gave me a test on my ability to vocalize, I guess. And the teacher -- also very kind woman -I suppose she was very impressed because she got the principal to come to listen to me. And that led to at least one or two school assemblies I was given the opportunity to sing. So, it was quite a nice experience. Also, I appreciated the fact that being one of the first Mexican students, they gave me an opportunity to [00:11:00] participate, and that gave me a bit of prominence. I really appreciated that. JJ: What type of song? I mean, what were you singing? OL: One of them was (singing in Spanish). And so on and so forth. Ay-Ay-Ay, and then, another song I cannot recall which one it was. But I had very good memories of that experience of going to school. I was already, again, older than most of the students in my class. 4 �JJ: So, did they put you down a grade or anything like that? OL: No, I never had that experience. [00:12:00] Fortunately, I came with a sense of self confidence. I was not intimidated by the new setting. And I think this is due to the fact that from very early age, I had the urge to organize, and that is because we lived in the -- there were three barrios or neighborhoods that were -on the other side of the tracks now they say -- on the other side of the tracks. These were made up of people that were workers in the railroad or some other field. But it was a -- JJ: So [what were they?] organizing for at that time? [00:13:00] This was in San Luis Potosí? OL: Yeah. Well, see, what happened is that -- I remember that at a very early age, I participated in a footrace in the Alameda Central which was contiguous to -- on this other side of the tracks, the good side of the track, so to speak. And from there, I got to say, “Well, if they have these kinds of activities, we should have one ourselves.” So, that was the first time that I decided that I was going to organize a race for the people in our neighborhood. So, I developed the idea of developing what I called “Maratón de los Barrios.” Los barrios mean industry, la colonia San Luis, which is where I lived, la colonia Ferrocarrilera, and la colonia Industrial. [00:14:00] Those were three neighborhoods that I felt I would like to organize something. And they were successful. There was the newspaper at the time, El Heraldo de San Luis Potosí had a good sports writer. And he encouraged me. In fact, he’s the one that, I guess was our padrino because he began to write about these events. So, it was very good, the way in which we 5 �were able to make connections with him. [00:15:00] Then also, I have recollection that when we were in high school -JJ: In Wells? This is in Wells? OL: No, back in San Luis Potosí before I came to Chicago. La Asociación de Estudiantes Normalistas, the Normalista school -- the student association. And that was the first time that I had my first taste of organizing because traditionally the people that are in charge of the association of students would be the people in the professional grades, third, fourth, and -- no, fourth, fifth, and sixth grades. [00:16:00] Those were the ones that were ready to become teachers. But then, the people in high school -- there were three groups of high school for first year and then two more for second year and then one group for third year. So that in terms of numbers, the lower grades were the ones that had the numbers and more students. So, we developed a slate, the slate mainly us, the estudiantes de secundaria. And we had two or three from the professional grades so that we would have a balanced ticket. [00:17:00] And we won. We won those elections. JJ: And this was just passing flyers out or (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? OL: It was mostly mouth to mouth, especially each classroom -- well, we had our groupings. JJ: So, you went classroom to classroom. OL: Yeah. So, we participated in the elections, and we won. Then the secretary of the school, the secretaria de la escuela, whose last name was [Alderete?], his brother was, I think, the secretary of the local branch of the official party, the PRI, Partido Revolucionario Institucional. So, I think he gave us the idea to come and 6 �visit his brother. [00:18:00] And then, his brother, when we met with him, he arranged for us to have a meeting with Don Gonzalo N. Santos who was a former governor but was in fact el cacique. He was the political boss of the state. And he was not only the political boss of the state, but also, he was prominent in the national politics. JJ: He (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) cacique. OL: El cacique, right, Gonzalo N. Santos. So, he arranged for us to go and meet him at his home. He lived in a part of San Luis Potosí called La Huasteca, Huasteca Potosina. La Huasteca was a region, very kind of -- more like [00:19:00] tropical. Huasteca Potosina included the state of San Luis Potosí, the state of Guanajuato, and the state of Veracruz, I think. It’s an extensive region. So, we went. And through is intervention, we were able to secure the use of El Teatro de la Paz. El Teatro de la Paz, that’s only for really big functions. But as students, we were able to use it for our yearly activity. Another time, [00:20:00] another brother of mine, Ephraim, was a part of a group that a teacher had that put in a -performed una zarzuela, a Spanish kind of operetta called “La Marcha de Cádiz.” JJ: La Marcha de Cádiz? OL: La Marcha de Cádiz. JJ: And what does that mean, the Cádiz? OL: Cádiz is a region in Spain. JJ: Of Spain? OL: Right. And so, it was a very unusual year when we were in charge of the association of students because nobody ever had used El Teatro de la Paz for 7 �the activities of the students. And to the best of my understanding, afterwards nothing like that every happened again. So, I think we left somewhat of a mark. When we left our city, San Luis Potosí -JJ: So, the whole family came? [00:21:00] OL: The whole family came, actually. JJ: Including your mother and father? OL: Exactly, yeah. JJ: You said everything was up and up, legal and everything so you didn’t have to (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). OL: Oh, yes, yes, yes. It wasn’t that difficult then. And I think the only thing -- if you were over 18 you had to have a carta de trabajo, a letter of employment. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) legal channel, legal process. OL: Yeah. So we were able to come, all of the family really, all at once. When we came, my brother and my sister were living at 1829 North Humboldt Boulevard. [00:22:00] It was beautiful. Again, it seemed like we were the only Mexicans. Around the corner from where we lived, there used to be another Mexican family. But the man in the family was a teacher. So, that -- JJ: And even at that time, this was, what around -- in the ’60s or ’50s? OL: Late ’50s. JJ: Okay. So, there were also -- there were Puerto Ricans also at that time? OL: I got to meet some -- there might be one or two families, I think because I remember -- JJ: It was still a Polish community? 8 �OL: Polish, German, I think, and I guess Norwegian too because Norwegian Hospital close by and there were one or two other institutions that had Norwegian [00:23:00] in its title. JJ: Because this was more like on Humboldt Boulevard, like you said, it wasn’t -- you know, Wicker Park, there [was?] Puerto Ricans living there at that time? OL: I believe -- there might have been families, but it was not predominantly Puerto Rican. No, no, no. I think that happened much later. So, that was my recollections of the first years that I was in Chicago. JJ: And how did people get along? You said people got along pretty well because they were immigrants too, new immigrants? OL: Yeah, and I guess also because there were so few of us. I think the overt racism came to the floor when we were crowding in. [00:24:00] And especially -- I mean, the Puerto Ricans were more assertive, could you say, or louder? I don’t know how you would call it. (laughs) But I think Mexicans -- we tended to be subdued and not make any waves. And also because at that time, you’re trying to learn, you’re not trying to assert your identity. You’re trying to learn the language, learn the customs. JJ: So, you were like 19, 17, around there? OL: Well, I came at the age of 17. So, I was 18, 19. JJ: Then you went to Wells High School you said? OL: Right, right. JJ: So, you weren’t working at all? [00:25:00] 9 �OL: No, no. Well, I worked for a few months in a little shop in the South Side of Chicago. They made batteries. And that was when my brother told me to go to school. And then, after that -- I don’t know exactly when, but I found a job. I always liked to dress very well at that age. My suits were always from -- there was a store downtown called [Baskins?]. I didn’t have many suits, but the ones that I bought were really -- now that I think of it, they were very good suits. So, I don’t know exactly how it was [00:26:00] that I went to visit a store. I don’t think that I was responding to an ad. Somehow I went to that store on -- it was Halsted and la doce, 12th, Roosevelt Road, you know. And somehow -- I don’t know how, but I got -- JJ: It was where they had the open market, you mean? OL: No, it was a big store. I think that was one of the two big stores in the area, right. And I don’t know how, but I got employed there. And I think maybe because -- I mean, again, I always liked to dress well. I didn’t know what the sport dudes were -- you know, the [la ropa de descanso?]. So, most of the time, I was wearing a suit. (laughs) So, that’s how I got that job there. I was there for probably two years. [00:27:00] And I think after that, that’s when I got drafted, like everybody else. I was drafted into the Army. And then, I went into the Army and I was there for two years. Those two years were also very, very interesting because of the fact that by that time, I had become -- I don’t know how -- I became involved with the people from the 26th of July Movement. There was a man that was more or less the head person. JJ: What was that movement about? 10 �OL: The 26th of July Movement was the movement of which Fidel Castro was part. [00:28:00] I think the name comes from a time -- I think the time when Fidel Castro was first arrested and spent some time in jail. JJ: The trial, [they had the?] big trial?]. OL: And I think out of that came the 26th of July Movement. And I had a friend -- I think I had a friend -- his last name was [Franklin?]. His father was a Communist, and his father was one of a group of Communists that at one point were jailed. He spent time in jail. So, getting to know him -- it was good, and he was a good - JJ: So, he went to jail here in Chicago, though? OL: Yes, in Chicago. I think that was at the [00:29:00] height of the witch hunt when Communists were, I suppose what they called card-carrying Communists were persecuted, put in jail. So then, I was drafted. And when I was drafted, one of the things that I knew was that you never tried to hide anything in your record. (laughs) So, my list was fairly long because I became associated with people that were part of a local bunch of the 26th of July Movement. The head of that group was a man, [Manuel Sanchez?]. [00:30:00] He lived on Fullerton, by the way, Fullerton close to Humboldt Boulevard, I think. And, let’s see. So, when I was in the Army, I had to fill out all my affiliations, so the 26th of July Movement, all the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. That was a group that -- I don’t know if you recall the name of a man that was the owner of theaters, Spanish theaters. JJ: [Jan Rosen?]. OL: Jan Rosen, yeah. It was through him that I got involved in the -- 11 �JJ: He had fought in Spain, also, the -- OL: Oh, yes, correct, correct. He had fought in the -- with the Republican side in Spain. [00:31:00] That was when Franco came to power, I think. JJ: (inaudible) He owned the 3-Penny Cinema, the Biograph. OL: Exactly, exactly, Teatro de las Americas also. Teatro de las Americas. He was a very good man. He was a very good man. But then, again, when I went into the Army, I had to put all those affiliations. And then, the intelligence service of the Army tried to interview me. But I had found -- when I came into the Army, they put me in what they called flagging action, F-L-A-G-G-I-N-G, a flagging action, which meant that you [00:32:00] -- I guess they put you in a state of suspense. You could not be put in the regular activities of the Army. So, I was put on the flagging action. And while I was there, there was another young guy that was connected to another very good family that I used to know. [Dick Criley?] was his name, C-R-I-L-E-Y, Dick. And his wife was an organizer for U.A., for one of the progressive locals at that time. JJ: Was it against war and fascism? OL: I’m sorry? JJ: Youth Against War and Fascism? OL: No, no, it was -- I cannot recall the name. [00:33:00] But through this couple -well, Mr. Criley was the head of a group called Chicago Committee to Defend the Bill of Rights. And so, through them, I met these men who were also in the Army and also was put on that flagging action status. And so, with him, I was able to develop a -- our strategy was based on the fact that before they put you in a 12 �flagging action, the Army has to let you know that they are going to put you in that status [00:34:00] to give you an opportunity to say whatever you need to say. But since they didn’t do that with us before they put us in the flagging action, then every time the intelligence service tried to interrogate me, I said, “Well, I refuse to participate,” on the grounds that they had not followed the Army procedures, and the fact that we had put in a complaint with the Inspector General of the Army against that kind of action on the part of the Army. So, every time they tried to interview me, I would go back to the fact that I considered all this illegal and that I had a complaint with the Inspector General and until such time as that complaint was acted upon, I was not going to participate. [00:35:00] And so, that’s how I avoided being interrogated, because once you open yourself up to interrogation, they can trick you into all kinds of things. So, that’s basically my experience in the Army. So, by the time -- when I came out of the Army, I had to go through these pruebas de fuego, I had been tested. JJ: So, you came out when? What year? OL: In ’64. So, it took two years before the riots. And when the riots came, well -- JJ: So, the riots -- when you say the riots, you mean -- OL: The June of 1966, what is called the [00:36:00] -- JJ: The riot in Division Street. OL: Yeah, the Division Street riots of 1966. JJ: And what was that about? What was that about? OL: Well, my understanding is that at the end of the first Puerto Rican festival, which was in June of ’66, on that Sunday, the day after -- 13 �JJ: You mean the Puerto Rican parade, the first Puerto Rican parade? OL: Right, the first Puerto Rican parade. That Sunday afternoon when people were celebrating in the park, there was an incident where a police officer shot this guy, [Jose Salin?] Cruz was his name. And that led to the people in the park that observed that to begin to [00:37:00] react spontaneously. And they could not quell the riots. Well, they began on Sunday, but then, on the two following days, the riots continued and the police were -- I guess they didn’t know how to handle it. My understanding is that at one point, Monday or Tuesday, the whole police force throughout the city -- they were brought into the area, but still they did not have the ability to put down the demonstrations. JJ: So, all these police cars are on the street? They’re driving through the street and people see that? And that brings more people. [00:38:00] OL: Well, in fact, I think that when it began to happen -- again, the cars would pass by and they would throw stones at them. It wasn’t like the police was in charge of the situation. The people was in the middle of the situation, but they were not in charge. JJ: So, they’re just driving by like targets because they’re getting thrown rocks at them? They’re getting pelted? OL: I guess the idea was to take control of the situation, but there wasn’t, again, something they could do because, again, they were not prepared for that kind of eventuality, not for a riot. I think in the following years they developed -- they were able to do that. JJ: So, it lasted about a week or -- 14 �OL: I think it was two days of actual fighting, Sunday and then Monday and Tuesday, to the best of my recollection. [00:39:00] JJ: How did it stop? OL: I guess -- I wouldn’t say people run out of steam, but I think the police slowly began to assert themselves in the area. JJ: Did any organizations play any role at all? OL: No. Well, at that time, there were no organizations. The first organization that came out of the riots was the Spanish Action Committee. JJ: That came out of the riots? OL: Yeah, Spanish Action Committee. And the head of that group was [Juan Diaz?]. My understanding is that Juan Diaz was on the staff of the Cardinals Committee. I believe the Cardinals Committee had already been activated before the riot. [00:40:00] JJ: Yeah, they were active (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) San Juan. OL: I think it was mostly with the Caballeros de -- JJ: San Juan. OL: De San Juan, right. That was the -- I suppose Caballers de San -- JJ: They organized in the ’50s. They were kind of like -- that was at the point when they were beginning to go downhill and new groups were coming in. OL: Right. Yeah, because first of all, they were controlled by the church. And when the riots happened, the church wasn’t going to endorse the riots. They were part of the people that tried to stop it. JJ: But people were angry, you’re saying. 15 �OL: Oh yeah. JJ: How were they acting (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) besides the riot? [00:41:00] OL: They just began to fight with the police, throw rocks at them. JJ: So, the Spanish Action Committee came out of that. Did LADO come out of that? OL: To the best of my understanding, yeah, the Spanish National Committee came out of that. Now, because of my orientation and also because I was Mexican, I wanted to support the Puerto Rican community and support the group that seemed to be the main group. But even after several months, I know that at [00:42:00] one point in some conversation that Juan Diaz was having -- you know, [just having?] conversation in the street, you know -- that he mentioned divisively, kind of (Spanish), that he said words to the effect that, “Well, Obed Lopez doesn’t know that the reason he’s not admitted to SAC is because he’s a Mexican.” So, I said, “Well, okay.” (laughs) I just assimilated that. So, it was then that I thought, “Well, if I cannot be in SAC because I’m Mexican, I still want to do something.” So, that’s when the idea began to germinate that we had to have a different organization. And by the name -- [00:43:00] I think the name give it quite the definition. It was a Latin organization, Latin American organization. It was a defense organization. It was aggressive in the political sense. And it was an organization. JJ: But it came out of SAC. OL: Well, no, it did not come out of SAC because I wanted to be part of SAC but I couldn’t be part of SAC because I was Mexican. 16 �JJ: It was a reaction to SAC. OL: That’s the best way to put it. It’s a reaction to an organization that was not Latin, open to others but Puerto Ricans. That’s how we came and established the Latin American Defense Organization. JJ: But later on you did work together (audio cuts out). [00:44:00] Did you march (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? OL: There were marches. We also participated -- right. Well, let me see, I think there was -- I don’t know exactly, but I think a few days after the riots, I think there was an attempt to march to city hall. And in fact, the march to city hall took place. But I remember [Father Headley?] and another father -- I can’t remember his name priest. JJ: [Leo T. Mahon?]? Those were the two leaders that (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). OL: Yeah, him. They tried to change the -- to the police station, that [00:45:00] was the first march, to the police station. And they were trying to stop us from going to the police station. So, I’m watching how they wanted to get people back into the Humboldt area. But people just kept going until we ended up at the -- was that 13th district police station, I believe? JJ: Fourteen. OL: Fourteen district police station. JJ: [Wood Street?]? OL: Yeah. So, that was the first march that I recall being part of. I was not in a leadership position. I was just part of the group. 17 �JJ: Okay, so then, LADO forms at that time. OL: So yeah, so it took some time because we were trying to see if we could be part of and supportive of the Puerto Rican organization. [00:46:00] But when that didn’t happen, then we decided to establish the Latin American Defense Organization. JJ: Besides admitting other people, what were some of the main issues that the Latin American Defense Organization were looking at? OL: At the beginning, I wanted to get a hold of some issues. The first issue that I thought I wanted to see if I could get something going was in reference -- the colmados versus National Tea food stores. I remember that there was a National Tea food store on Division and Washington, I believe. [00:47:00] And one day, I went and I asked, “Do you have any” -- I think Puerto Ricans working -- and they didn’t have any employees that were Puerto Ricans. So, I took that as a basis to develop a campaign “Compra al Colmado,” no to national food stores. It was short lived. JJ: Like a boycott. OL: Right. It was short lived because by that time, Jesse Jackson already had “Operation Breadbasket.” And I remember I went at least to one of their meetings. But I said, “This issue is already in the hands of the Black leadership.” [00:48:00] JJ: So, you were moving right away, organizing from the very beginning. OL: Right. That’s right. Exactly, exactly. JJ: (inaudible) But you didn’t come for that reason. You came for school. 18 �OL: Say that again? JJ: When you came from Mexico, you came to go to school? OL: When I came from Mexico, we came to live here. We were immigrants. JJ: And right away, you got involved? OL: No, actually no, because, again, for two years -- we came in ’57, I believe. Fiftyeight and on, we -- I was just adjusting myself to the new JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) OL: Then in 1962, I was drafted into the Army. JJ: Right, the Army. So when you came out of the Army -- OL: So, I came out of the Army in ’64. So, it took two years [00:49:00] between the time that I came out of the Army to the time the riots took place. JJ: But were you dissatisfied within the Army while you were there, or no? OL: I was not dissatisfied. I went because I had to go because I was called. But again, when I went into the Army, when I had to fill out all my information, I had to list all the organizations that I was part of. And that’s where the Fair Play for Cuba came, the 26th of July Movement, especially those two. So, imagine in 1962 to be pro-Cuba and being pro-Castro -- so, that’s already a flagging -- that’s when the red light came up. [00:50:00] They had to initiate an investigation. JJ: So, there was an investigation? OL: Yeah, right. But then they did not follow the Army procedures in the investigation. Again, according to the Army procedures, they had to give me a chance to explain myself, and since they did not do that, that was my basis for not cooperating with them. And then, I put my complaint to the Inspector General. 19 �So, anytime they wanted to interview me, I said, “Well, I decline,” on the basis that the investigation was illegal and that I had a complaint pending with the Inspector General. So, that’s how I protected myself all the time that I was in the Army. [00:51:00] JJ: Okay. And so, now you have LADO, the Latin American Defense Organization, and they’re working on -- what other issues are they working on? OL: Well, when we established LADO -- and again, I think it was maybe around ’68 -- JJ: So, it was after the riot of ’66. OL: Yes, it was after the riot. JJ: So, during the riot of ’66, you were just trying to -- OL: I was simply an observer, like an interested observer. I stayed in the periphery of the action. I recall placing myself in by 11th and -- the corner were the Latin Kings -- JJ: Oh, 11th and Schiller? OL: 11th and Schiller. That was the first time that I observed [00:52:00] -- what’s his name? The head of the Latin Kings. JJ: [Phil Juarbe?]? OL: Phil, yeah. Phil Juarbe. Juarbe. Phil Juarbe. And simply observed -- that was when I became aware of him and I became one of the Latin Kings. I think there were other groups, but the Latin Kings were the ones that -- JJ: The Young Sinners, were there the Young Sinners? Was another group that was there? But the Latin Kings -- that was the (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). So, did you start working with them? 20 �OL: No, because, again, at that point, I wasn’t -- I mean, I wasn’t anybody in a leadership position. [00:53:00] JJ: So, in 1968. OL: But then, I think it was ’67 when there were some -- the political campaign I think either for the election or reelection of Paul Douglas. And that’s what gave us the opportunity to hook up with labor because I don’t recall exactly how we came to know that there was a labor group that needed to work in the elections but needed to hook up with an organization. So, with the organization -- so that’s when we had -- [00:54:00] the first time that we had a place. That was 2322 West North Avenue. That’s the first place. The labor group rented the facility, and then, we came in as the, quote-unquote, the community organization. So, that’s how we began. We had the advantage over any other group that we had a place that we could call our own. And that was when -- I think it was because one of the founders of LADO is [Olga Pedroza?]. Olga Pedroza already was a college graduate. And I think that she began to work as a caseworker. So, it was [00:55:00] through her that we more or less began to see the work in the welfare department and how the Puerto Rican families had to be part of the welfare. They had to receive welfare benefits since the family was not employed. That’s how we established our connection with the first families. JJ: [Community with the family?]. So, that’s how you kind of build the base. OL: Right. It was mostly the women. The women would go to the welfare department. 21 �JJ: So I understand, was there also a union that you were trying to (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? OL: Oh, that’s right. The [00:56:00] welfare employees were trying to form what became, I think, an independent union of public aid employees. So, we had a good working relationship with them, and that was helpful because they were trying to organize their union so the case workers were very cooperative with us. They helped us, in a sense, to be more effective. JJ: Did you have any demonstrations or anything? OL: Well, that was when we began to have demonstrations -- I don’t remember, to be truthful, how we began to -- well, first we would come to the welfare office to help on a day to day basis. [00:57:00] And that’s, I think, how we began to build a nucleus of people on welfare that related to us. Then when the elections for -when the efforts to elect Paul Douglas came, labor needed a group. They had a facility. We became the group, and that’s how we began to really begin to develop a base of members and supporters. JJ: Was it -- one time, I believe, that the Black Panthers and Young Lords were also marching together with LADO? OL: Oh, yeah. I think it was by ’69, I believe. Yeah. We had already been there for some time. [00:58:00] And that was when -- I don’t know exactly how we -maybe you can help me -- how we got to work together. Well, you were in Lincoln Park. We were in -- JJ: Right. I think you started supporting us in Lincoln Park, and we had a coalition, the Rainbow Coalition with the Black Panthers. So, whoever the Black Panthers 22 �supported, we supported, and whoever we supported the Black Panthers supported. And so, you asked the Young Lords if they could support the welfare case workers, so we invited the Panthers. And I believe all three of us were arrested, myself, you, and Fred Hampton. It happened twice (inaudible) because the [00:59:00] -- some of the women took over the welfare office, and so we got arrested at that time. That’s what I remember. But I believe there was even -Chris Cohen was in there. That guy that later on -- I don’t know what his job was, Chris Cohen. OL: Chris Cohen. I remember the name, but I don’t recall exactly. Was he with the welfare department? JJ: I think he was with the welfare department. Later on, he became alderman of the 46th Ward and we ran against him. Now, what about -- do you remember Corky Gonzales and the “Crusade for Justice?” OL: Oh, right. [01:00:00] Well, Corky -- it was had the time when Dr. King was based here in Chicago. And Corky Gonzales -- let me see. Corky Gonzales, at one point, came to Chicago, I don’t know if specifically because he wanted to meet Dr. King or he had something for another event. And then, I took him to meet Dr. King. But the same happened with Reies López Tijerina. He also came to Chicago, and also, he wanted to meet with Dr. King. So, I took him to meet Dr. King. I remember Reies López Tijerina had the issue of the land grants movement. His movement was based on claims that preceded even Mexico because they claimed that the lands that were taken from them were granted to 23 �them by the [01:01:00] Spanish crown. And it was on that historical basis that Reies López Tijerina developed his movement. JJ: And his movement did what? What did they do? OL: Well, again, they were trying to regain control of the territory that was part of the initial land grants. They were not successful, of course. JJ: But I mean, what kind of things did they try to do? OL: What do you mean? JJ: I mean, what kind of actions did they do? OL: Well, I think mostly it was organizing the people that [01:02:00] could have a claim to that. In those years at one point, the wife of Reies López Tijerina burned, as a symbolic act, burned some signs of the -- what is the name of the forest? JJ: Forest Rangers? OL: Yeah, Forest Rangers, [I would suppose?]. That got her in trouble, and I think that she spent some time in jail after. JJ: This was Reies López Tijerina’s wife. And did he do anything or spend any time in jail? OL: Tijerina? JJ: Yes. OL: I mean, he was a leader. The wife is the one [01:03:00] that committed that action that landed her eventually in jail. JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) take over a courthouse or -- 24 �OL: To be truthful, now I remember that incident. But I don’t know if Tijerina himself was involved. Possibly he was. But what the outcome of that, I do not remember. JJ: Okay. But anyway, you started working together with the Young Lords at that time, when the Young Lords were beginning, right at the very beginning. I think there was a thing about Fat Larry or something like that. Do you recall that? OL: (laughs) Oh yeah. I remember. JJ: What do you remember about that? OL: Well, I remember that -- I don’t know if it was directly Fat Larry, the one that told - I think you guys, the [01:04:00] Young Lords words to the effect that that neighborhood had been Italian. It had been German before and they were going to make it that again. They were going to get rid of the Puerto Ricans in the area. And I remember I think one day there was some demonstration that you had against him and he came out with his weapon. JJ: Submachine gun. OL: Submachine, right. And I think it was for [Dolores Valera?], the one that took that -- captured that moment. And that was very -- JJ: How did she capture it? What did she do? OL: I’m sorry? JJ: How did she capture it, [01:05:00] the moment? Was it -- OL: She was with us and she was a photographer. JJ: When we confronted Fat Larry? OL: Yeah, so she was there. 25 �JJ: Taking pictures. OL: Yeah, she took pictures. JJ: And then, we put the pictures in the newspaper? Is that what you’re saying? Is that what I’m saying (overlapping dialogue; inaudible)? OL: Yeah. I know that picture was very useful. It was used to make -- so that people could see what it was that you were up against. JJ: Because he represented the local real estate office and the local mafia. He was a local mafia (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). OL: Yeah, exactly. JJ: And actually, the police came in. Didn’t they? At one point, he called the police (audio cuts out) machine gun, but he’s calling the police. [01:06:00] OL: (inaudible) Also, I think he had a phone. JJ: That was (inaudible) picture. He had a phone calling the police. OL: Right. “Come and save me.” (laughter) JJ: Even though he’s got a submachine gun. And so, those were the pictures that Dolores Valera put -- OL: And they would use them in the -- JJ: Where is Dolores now? OL: We don’t know. She went to New Mexico, and the last time that -- [Omar?] has tried to keep in touch with Olga Pedroza who was one of the founders of LADO. I think at one point he asked her if she new -- she was in touch with Dolores, but I think she said [01:07:00] she had lost touch with her. 26 �JJ: But that kind of was one of the pivotal points of the Young Lords in Lincoln Park. We were working together with the Latin Kings. OL: Yeah. And I remember a lot of -- I think the way in which we came to support the Young Lords was that some of the mothers that were involved with LADO were from that area. That’s how we kind of -- JJ: Exactly. The (inaudible) covered that area. Okay, so now, we’re working together, and then, we go to the youth conference? [Do you remember?]? OL: Yes, I think we hired two buses. JJ: We had buses full of Young Lords and (inaudible) and we went there. [01:08:00] OL: That was quite an event, traveling together. JJ: All the way to Denver, Colorado. And this was around ’68, 1968 was the first year. And then, later on the next year there was another one. OL: Yes. JJ: Okay. And what do you remember of that day, up in Denver, at that event? What do you remember? OL: Well, actually that it was an exhilarating event because of the fact that we brought so many people that were activists with us and with the Young Lords. It was something that had never happened. [01:09:00] And I remember that it was very good, because for the local people from LADO to be exposed to a national movement, I think, also opened up their understanding and their perception of themselves, because I think at that point they were able to see it was not just an isolated group, but there was a larger movement that they could identify with. I think that was the -- 27 �JJ: So, it impacted your members? OL: Oh, definitely. JJ: What did they do after that? OL: Well, we kept doing our -- the welfare department had not changed. I think it renewed determination. I think that’s the one thing about it, that people knew they were not [01:10:00] crazy. It wasn’t that they were asking for anything that they were not entitled to receive. So, I think it was a very good influence. It expanded their world, expanded their consciousness. JJ: What other events did the Young Lords and LADO work together? OL: Well, I think basically we were kind of a single issue organization. At one point, we [01:11:00] thought we would get into the things with the stores, with the national chains. But then, again, we saw that Jesse Jackson was covering that field, and we didn’t feel that by getting into that issue we wanted to become just adjunct to the personality of Jesse Jackson. So, we said, “Well, that’s not an issue where we can create our own --” JJ: Now, the Young Lords took over McCormick Seminary, Theological Seminary. And then, you went to the -- as part of that takeover, [01:12:00] you went to San Antonio, Texas. OL: San Antonio -- the Presbyterian National Convention, right, yes. JJ: What happened there? We don’t know what happened there. OL: Well, what happened there was that at one point I was able to address the general assembly. JJ: How did you address -- you just -- 28 �OL: Written. JJ: I mean, you talked to the people that -- and they gave you permission? OL: Oh, yeah, to all the -- JJ: They had to give you permission because their seminary was taken over. (laughter) OL: Kind of. They could not ignore my presence because I was not there by myself. I was there as a representation of people that had taken over -- JJ: A seminary, the administration building. OL: That’s right. Yes. The one thing [01:13:00] that we have learned very late through the meetings that we have been having with clergy is that the takeover also had quite an impact inside the leadership. JJ: Of the clergy? OL: Of the clergy, right. I don’t know how -- JJ: Why do you say that? I mean, why do you say that it had an impact? OL: Because they told us. They told us how within -- I think within the faculty of McCormick -- within the student group, the ones that seemed kind of -effervescence. There was this kind of -- as part of the times, the ’60s, every level of [01:14:00] our communities -- there were -- well, the spirit of the time, so to speak, was present there too so that our addressing the national convention also had within the clergy -- there was also that kind of -- JJ: And how were you received? Were they quiet? Were they bitter at that time? Not now, but I mean, at that time. 29 �OL: At that time? Well, I don’t think they were bitter. It was, again, very unusual [01:15:00] that a convention of clergymen -- that it would have the presence, the visit of people representing a community. I think that we had a positive experience and that they were not -- we never sensed any kind of hostility because it was not like if we were -- we were a miniscule group. Our presence was not overpowering. I think the message that we gave, the message that we conveyed had an impact then and had an impact as they continued their -[01:16:00] JJ: What was the message that you conveyed? OL: Well, that there was a community that held grievances against the power structure and that they were part of the power structure. I think that basically that’s what it was. The way I understand it, they heard it, and it was a new voice. We were a new voice, and I don’t think they resented us because, again, we were nobodies. But the fact that we were coming with a message from my community -- I think that’s what was new. JJ: And we had a list of demands. And you were speaking. OL: Correct. [01:17:00] And basically, as I recall it, I just made a brief introduction and then read the demands and that was it. JJ: And that was it. No more speaking? I mean, that was it? You just said, “This is who I am and I’ve been sent here to tell you that these are the demands we want”? OL: Who I was and who I represented and what kind of grievances we had. And then, I read them. 30 �JJ: Then you walked off the stage? OL: Yeah, basically, yeah. The idea was not to keep hold of the seminario. JJ: Were they quiet, or did they just clap or boo? OL: No, there were no boos. I think they just listened and listened respectfully because there was no [01:18:00] sign of hostility. JJ: Okay. But then you came back from the conference by Sunday. By Sunday, it was over. By Sunday night it was over, we negotiated. OL: Once we finished our presentation, I think that I didn’t stay much longer maybe. JJ: So, were you at the negotiation then with [McKay?] or not at that time? OL: I don’t have a recollection of that. But I think the negotiations -- JJ: They were in his apartment, the night that we negotiated. [01:19:00] OL: I might have been in the negotiations, but I don’t have a recollection of that. JJ: Okay. So then, what happened after that? Because one of the demands was a clinic for LADO and a grant for the Young Lords also. OL: I think eventually we got a grant. JJ: For the Young Lords clinic. OL: That got us going for, I suppose at least a year. It was good because we didn’t have any sources of support. So, that helped us get going until the money ran out. JJ: And basically, what was the clinic? What did you do in your clinic? OL: Well, I think basically it was like [01:20:00] -- I remember one of the services that were very effective for maybe two to three years was the physical examinations that were required for students to be admitted in school. I know that the kind of -- 31 �if they would go to a private doctor, it was -- I don’t remember exactly how much, but it was quite an expense, especially if you had a family with three, four, five kids, a lot of them having to have that examination before they could enter into school. [01:21:00] When we set up ourselves to give the physical examinations, that was a great economic contribution to the families, because I think that even the doctors had to lower -- the private doctors -- they had to lower their fees because we had quite a good number of families that received those services. Then of course, the ones that would get primary care -- we also were able to refer. That was the other important thing. Through the doctors that were part of the faculty of Northwestern, we were able to refer them to specialty services, I think, when they needed more. JJ: At Northwestern? OL: At Northwestern, yes. JJ: And Northwestern was located where? Do you recall? Oh, that’s [01:22:00] Northwestern University. OL: Here on Chicago and [by the lake?]. JJ: So, people came to you and they -- OL: Right. And the ones that needed -- JJ: Did they pay any money? OL: No, no. JJ: So, they didn’t pay any money? OL: No, they didn’t pay any money. 32 �JJ: And then, you also referred them to Northwestern, and there they didn’t pay any money either? OL: Most likely not because I think all of them, even at that time, were eligible to get some form of economic help to cover their services. So, the important thing is that we -- that through the referral system, we were able to get people to receive services in that facility. JJ: And that happened for a year, at least a year. OL: At least three years, I think. JJ: So, a lot of people went to the services. [01:23:00] OL: Oh yes, uh-huh. JJ: So, that was that was a good organizing vehicle, or what -- did look at it like that? OL: The interesting thing is we didn’t see it as an organizing vehicle. We saw that that was a service that we could provide to people that didn’t have it, so we gave it to them. JJ: (inaudible) community. Okay, and then what about after that? How did you feel about the Young Lords? This is another group. OL: Well, we felt, of course, solidarity, a sense of solidarity. I think we admired the fact that -- I mean, you were very young, and you had, in a sense, a big -- even if we didn’t quite understand it yet. But when you went up against [01:24:00] the powerful power structure, local -- when we talk about the Italians and we talk about the mafia. Hey, they were there. The good thing is that we -- you were not intimidated. I mean, it didn’t -- the name of the mafia didn’t instill fear in us, in you. So, that was -- 33 �JJ: So, we were, as a group of people, not just Young Lords, but LADO (overlapping dialogue; inaudible). OL: There were other groups. What was the name? JJ: SAC was marching with us also. We were not afraid of the mafia. OL: I think ABC came one or two years later, right? [01:25:00] JJ: (inaudible) OL: That was a time when -- JJ: (overlapping dialogue; inaudible) OL: When there was people felt the need to organize, and they organized in different groups, but they were organized. JJ: So, it was a time of people getting in a lot of different groups. OL: Right. JJ: Some of the groups were more prominent, (inaudible). Okay. Has that happened? What happened that those groups died out? OL: Well, there was a point when we -- I mean, not exactly run out of steam -- but I think we had a sense that things were closing in on us. [01:26:00] JJ: What gave us that sense? OL: I don’t know exactly how to say it. But first of all, I knew that we could not keep the same degree of intensity in organizing. Then also, at one point, we said that we didn’t really have any powerful people backing us up. And then also, at one point, I sensed that we had more -- that there were other forces around us that even we couldn’t quite define them. But we knew that we were not -- it’s not like everybody agreed with us. I think people that were [01:27:00] part of the 34 �structure -- I think they saw that we were harming them. In my perspective, what -- the end of that period of organizing was when -- I don’t know if you recall the takeover of Association House. There were some people that were not part of our group that presented, I think, a kind of more or less following the method of taking over. I mean, we took over McCormick Place. (audio cuts out) People that were not part of our group but that [01:28:00] they also wanted to take over so they took over Association House. JJ: A different group took over Association House? OL: Yeah. That’s where people like [Oscar Lopez?] and brother -- that spent so many years in jail. They were not part of our group, but they saw that there was nothing competition with us. So, they were not part of the McCormick takeover, but they are the ones that, at one point, took over Association House. But it was at the time when already Association House had responded to an earlier demand about participation of the community in the board of directors. So, by the time they took over, it was already when we had a good number of people from LADO in the board of directors so that there was no reason for their demands because we already had -- [01:29:00] we were the only group that responded to the request to submit names to be in the board. So, that’s when we got [Mel Moreno?] and the wife Mrs. Moreno and the daughter. They were on the board as well as other people. So, that’s more or less what happened. (break in video) OL: You, for your initiative to capture moments in our history that [01:30:00] were and are important. I think that’s -- it is because of people with the vision that you 35 �have to capture that that we’ll be able to tell the story to other people that maybe they lived the same period, but they were not involved. This is going to be good for descendants of the activists, that they see how the generation of the parents had to fight the good fight. We didn’t have any representatives in local politics, either at the city or at the county or the state level. Now, there is quite a good number of people that are of Latin origin, not [01:31:00] that it is helping us much, their presence there. But at least they are there. But it is due to the efforts of the generation of the -- I call it generation of the ’66 because the Division Street riots of June ’66 to me marked the beginning of the political power for our communities. In fact, the riots are the ones that gave us the power. The riots are the ones that gave the community the power. It took then some time before people actually began to take representative positions. But it was because of the riots that the doors were opened. That’s how I would like to finish [01:32:00] and again by saying that you are making a great contribution in capturing the remembrances of people. So, I congratulate you and wish you the best. (laughs) JJ: Thank you. END OF VIDEO FILE 36 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/5154c94d61585d8a5045b2fa73e5ed14.mp4 6034611065d2b1e1b5267a81329c02c1 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Obed López-Zacarias vídeo entrevista y biografía Descripción Spanish language Description entry Obed López Zacarias es el que fundió el Latin American Defense Organization (LADO), que empezó desde los 1960s hasta los medio 1970s, organizando para una unión de asistente social y por tratamiento digno con los quien reciben ayuda del Estado en la oficina de Wicker Park Welfare en Chicago. LADO también fue instrumental en el desarrollo del Segundo Ruiz Belvis Centro Cultural, que es el Centro Cultural Puertorriqueño más viejo en chicago. Señor López-Zacarias trabajo cerca con los Young Lords, incluyendo el protesto en la oficina de Fat Larry en Armitage y Bissell Street, igual que otros. Para dar un ejemple, Fat Larry’s Bissell Realty era buen conectada con la mafia de Lincoln Park igual que Paddy Bauer, y por lo menos una ocasión Fat Larry directo un pistola al rentero puertorriqueño porque estaba tarde en pagar la renta. Los Young Lords se informaron de la ocasión y marcharon con miembros de LADO a la oficina de Fat Larry. Cuando un representativo entro a su oficina, Fat Larry directo su pistola a José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez. Luego corrió y se encerró en una parte de su oficina hasta que la policía llego. La policía inmediatamente cacheó a Señor Jiménez por armas. Un fotógrafo capturo todo la ocasión y publico muchas de las fotos en el periódico de LADO la próxima semana. 20,000 copias fueron circuladas por los Young Lords en la sección Latina de Lincoln Park. Señor López-Zacarias fue a la conferencia de Presbyterian en Tejas para ser el ministro público para los Young Lords y la Lincoln Park Poor Peoples Coalition, durante la McCormick Seminary ocupación en 1969. Cuando la ocupación termino y las exigencias ganadas, LADO recibió $25,000 para abrir una clínica que es gratis para la comunidad donde muchos de los Latin Kings volantearon. La clínica fue construida en North Ave, cerca de Western en el vecindario de Wicker Park Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puertorriqueños--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Puertorriqueños--Illinois--Chicago--Vida social y costumbres Pobreza--Illinois--Chicago Discriminación en la vivienda--Illinois--Chicago Housing--Illinois--Chicago Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Lopez-Zacarias_Obed Title A name given to the resource Obed López-Zacarias video interview and transcript Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource López-Zacarias, Obed Description An account of the resource Obed López-Zacarias is founder of the Latin American Defense Organization (LADO), that organized for a caseworker union and for the dignified treatment of welfare recipients at the Wicker Park Welfare Office of Chicago. LADO was also instrumental in helping to develop the Segundo Ruiz Belvis Cultural Center, the longest standing Puerto Rican Cultural Center in the city of Chicago. Mr. López-Zacarias worked closely with the Young Lords and became the official envoy to the Presbyterian Conference in Texas by the Young Lords and the Lincoln Park Poor People’s Coalition. When the occupation was over and all the demands were won, LADO opened a free community clinic located in the Wicker Park neighborhood. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez José , 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Puerto Ricans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Puerto Ricans--Illinois--Chicago--Social life and customs Poverty--Illinois--Chicago Discrimination in housing--Illinois--Chicago Housing--Illinois--Chicago Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-03-02 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/520ceaaaf63b47bb50ed8a7ae835a409.pdf 1a8fd91418fbba0d69f3de3aad9f4a33 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Omar López Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 8/23/2012 Biography and Description English Omar López was Minister of Information for the Young Lords. He was born in Mexico and first came to Chicago in 1958, settling in the Humboldt Park Neighborhood where he has lived ever since. He first met some Young Lords in Lincoln Park when they were hanging out on the streets as a local Puerto Rican street gang. When the Young Lords transformed themselves officially on September 23, 1968 into a human rights movement, he saw them once again. This time those same young men were providing security for José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez and Fred Hampton (of the Black Panther Party) who were speaking together at Loop Jr. College where Omar a student and fighting for student rights and bilingual education. Mr. López joined the Young Lords in 1969. In 1973, he founded the Mexican Teachers Organization.Mr. López continues to work actively on behalf of Latino and immigrant rights. In 2006, he ran as a Green Party candidate for the House of Representatives in Illinois, 4th District. That same year, on March 10, he convened one of the largest mass demonstrations on behalf of working class immigrant rights in U.S. history. �Mr. López continues to be proactive in the Humboldt Park area, with immigrant rights, the Latin American Defense Organization (LADO), and the Young Lords. He is the Executive Director of CALOR, a clinic that especially serves Latinos affected by HIV/AIDS and other diseases. Spanish Omar López era el Ministro de Información para los Young Lords. Nació en México y llego a chicago en 1958, estableándose en el vecindario de Humboldt Park donde sigue viviendo. El primero conoció alguien de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park cuando estaban en las calles como una ganga puertorriqueña. López los vio de nuevo cuando los Young Lords se transformaron, oficialmente en el 23 de Septiembre de 1958, de in ganga a un movimiento de los derechos humanos. Esta vez los jóvenes estaban protegiendo a José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez y Fred Hampton (del Black Panther Party) quien estaban hablando juntos en Loop Jr. College donde López estaba peleando por los derechos de los estudiantes y educación bilingüe. López se hizo parte de los Young Lords en 1969. En 1973 el fundo el Mexican Teachers Organization. Señor López continúa trabajando por los derechos de Latinos y emigrantes. En 2006, el corrió por el Green Party como candidato para la Case de Representantes de Illinois, del 4th distrito. El 10 de Marzo del mismo año el reunió una de la más grandes demonstraciones, de gente que luchaban por los derechos de los inmigrantes de clase obrera, en la historia de los Estados Unidos. López continua siendo proactivo en la aria de Humboldt Park, derechos para inmigrantes, la “Latin American Defense Organization (LADO), y los Young Lords. El es el director ejecutivo de CALOR, una clínica para Latinos que han sido afectados por HIV/AIDS u otras enfermedades. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: Okay, Omar, if you can give me your full name and your date of birth and where you were born. OMAR LOPEZ: Okay. My name is Omar Lopez. I was born in San Luis Potosí, Mexico. I was born on February the second, 1945. JJ: Okay. And then where is San -- OL: San Luis Potosí, San Luis Potosí, is a central state in the Republic of Mexico. It’s about a four hour drive north of Mexico City, so it’s right in the heart of the Mexican Republic. JJ: What is it? Is it a rural area or? OL: I was born in n San Luis Potosí, so it’s already established city, but it was established because there was a lot of mines during the Spaniards, a lot of mines. So that’s why it was established there. JJ: Gold mines or -- OL: It was silver mines. JJ: Silver mines. OL: Silver mines. [00:01:00] And so that’s how San Luis became a city. That’s where it was the cabecera, the head of the municipality. When I was born, I seem to remember that the population was like three quarters of a million people, but now it’s much, much bigger. But at that time, my family had moved into one of those, they call ’em colonias, the neighborhood that was at the fringe of the city. I mean, I could walk two blocks and I was already out in the open field. And 1 �when I look at it, in retrospect, that was a transition between country and city. People were still farmers, but they were making the transition between becoming farmers and becoming city dwellers. So a lot of the -- I [00:02:00] used to see a lot of wagons being pulled by mules. They had alfalfa and other things. So it was very interesting, very beautiful. As a matter of fact, from what I remember, beautiful transitional neighborhood. It was really nice. My father was a railroad man. JJ: What was his name? OL: My father’s name was Facundo López Martinez. JJ: Okay. And he was a railroad man? OL: He was a railroad man. He worked in the railroad, all of his adult life. I think he started probably about 19 years of age, immediately after the revolution. He was born in 1892. So when the Mexican Revolution started, he was 18. So he was recruited right away and he was recruited by the government. So he was from the state of Guanajuato. And the troops that he was with traveled the way to Acapulco [00:03:00] Guerrero, state of Guerrero, way south. But then at that time, a group of them were not happy. So they all deserted. They deserted from the federal troops and they joined the Zapatistas. JJ: So he deserted? OL: He deserted with -- JJ: And joined the Zapatistas? OL: And they joined the Zapatistas. And he did that. Of course, that group, the objective was to get back into Mexico City. They worked themselves back into 2 �Mexico City. So he saw part of, he participated in the Mexican Revolution, but since a very young age, he became a railroad person. He worked at the railroads until the day he died. That neighborhood again, was also populated by a lot of railroad people because San Luis being right in the center of Mexico, at the time [00:04:00] the whole network of trains, they all practically had to go through that city. So it was a railroad town. And consequently, it was also a labor town. Their union was very strong there, and there was always fights and things. But that was the neighborhood where I grew up. JJ: And your mom, what was her name? OL: My mother’s name was Maria Rosario Zacarias Vida de Lopez. JJ: Vida de Lopez? OL: Well, I mean, she became Vida de when my father passed away. So most of my life I knew her as Vida de Lopez. JJ: They used it -- OL: Yeah, that’s a full, that’s like the official thing when you, but her name was Maria Rosario. She came from a family. Her last name, maiden name was Zacarias. And [00:05:00] Zacarias is kind of strange last name. So when I started asking, it turns out that there probably somewhere way in the back, it was a Lebanese, it’s a Lebanese last name. So then my mother’s father was a-- JJ: His name? OL: My grandfather. My grandfather was a-- JJ: What was his name? 3 �OL: His name was Jesus Zacarias. Jesus Zacarias. He was an administrator for one of the haciendas in San Luis. So my mother grew up in one of those haciendas. JJ: And what is a haciendas? [00:05:30] OL: An hacienda, that was sort of like the unit. It was the property that landowners over the time had. And then they had workers, agricultural workers, and they cultivated, I guess different things. And from what I [00:06:00] understand, the hacienda was called Jesus Maria. They grew a lot of maguey for mezcal and I assume, probably not tequila, but mezcal and other crops. But my grandfather was just the administrator. He was a good administrator. And so my mother grew up in Jesus Maria San Luis Potosi. And then she moved to a little town called Río Laja in the state of Guanajuato, which is right next to San Luis. And it happened that the train that my father used to work on, used to pass by Río Laja. How my father started eyeing my mother, she was, must’ve been about sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, something like that. And that’s how their romance started. So eventually they got married, [00:07:00] and that’s how we got here. I’m the last of eight in the family. There’s three males. JJ: What are some of their names, your siblings? OL: So we’re three males and five females. So the males are Hector Xavier, Efraim, Obed, Hazael, and myself, Omar, my sisters are Deborah, Priscilla, and Noemi. JJ: Are any of them here or any? OL: One of them still lives in Chicago, and two of them never lived in the United States. They stayed in Mexico. And that’s where they are. They’re still living in Mexico. 4 �JJ: And what are they involved in? What type of work do they do? OL: Well, actually they just became housewives. They got married. One of my sisters did live in the United States for a while because my brother-in-law was a doctor, a medical doctor, and came to Maryland to [00:08:00] specialize in neuropsychology, neurosiquiatría, neuropsychiatry. And then he went back. And that’s like in the very early 1960s and ever since then, they stayed in Mexico. The other sister married, my brother-in-law was like an accountant. So he always worked in either banks or what they called seguridad social, social security, in Mexico until he retired. JJ: Okay. And so you came to Chicago what year? OL: I came to Chicago in 1958 to stay. We came in 1957, stayed for six months. We went back, that was in 1957. We came in February, 1957 for the first time, just for vacation. I had my oldest brother and my oldest sister were already here, and they wanted us to come and visit. And since my father was [00:09:00] a railroad man. JJ: And when did they arrive, your oldest brother? OL: Oh, my brother was the first one that came to Chicago in 1949. He was 19 years of age, and he came illegally. JJ: Do you know where he settled? OL: He settled, oh, the address that I remember was the 1500 block south of Harding in Illinois. Now it’s a primarily African-American community. It’s in North Lawndale. It’s in North Lawndale area. That’s the one address I remember. JJ: And you were saying your father was a railroad man? 5 �OL: Yeah, because my father was a railroad man we could travel free. He would get passes, railroad passes. So we used to take the train from San Luis Potosi and we ended up in Chicago. We didn’t even have to get off the train. So well in San Antonio we had to-- JJ: From there to here, it was the same train? OL: Yeah, all we had to do was transfer in San Antonio. But it was -- JJ: [00:10:00] Did you need documentation or anything like that? OL: Oh yeah. But when you cross Laredo, then you had to go through customs. JJ: Okay. And that was set up? OL: Yeah. JJ: Okay. All right. OL: So that was in February of 1957. We went back to Mexico in August of 1957, and we didn’t think we were coming back. But then my father passed away in January of 1958. And when my brothers that were already living in Chicago, for the funeral, they decided that I had to come with them. That I’d be better off if I came with them. So I arrived here in January of 1958. JJ: Okay. OL: Yeah. Ever since then I’ve been here in Chicago. JJ: Where did you live at? OL: When we came, it was the very first time is 1829 North Humboldt Boulevard. JJ: Okay. OL: That was in 1957. JJ: Humboldt Park. 6 �OL: Yeah, Humboldt Park. I’ve always been a Humboldt Park resident [00:11:00] since, ever since I came from Mexico, 1958. JJ: Since 1958. Okay. Now what were you doing just before you got here? What type of work? OL: Before I came to Chicago? JJ: Yeah. OL: I was a student. I was in grammar school. JJ: Okay, you were in grammar school. OL: In grammar school, yeah. JJ: All right, so now you’re living in Humboldt Park at that time. OL: We came to the Humboldt Park. JJ: How was the community? OL: The community in Humboldt Park was all primarily white. We were probably one of two families that were Mexican. There was a lot of Norwegians. As a matter of fact, the building where we came to live was owned by man, I think his last name was [Skomba?], but he was of Norwegian descent. On Humboldt Boulevard, right around the 1600 block there was sort of like the YMCA was Norwegian-American YMCA, but it was just like an association, youth association. [00:12:00] And there was a lot of Ukrainians and Polish people that I remember. JJ: So right around that area. OL: Yeah. JJ: I mean, what about Western and in that area? 7 �OL: All of that was white. JJ: Was white. OL: All of that was white in 1958. JJ: In 1958. OL: In 1958, all of that was white. One day I went to school, there was no bilingual education, so I should have been going to high school when I came from Mexico, but they put me in fifth grade because I didn’t understand English. So see, they used to equate not speaking English with being ignorant. So they said, “Well, this guy doesn’t speak English. He probably belongs in a lower grade,” but in areas such as like math, I was way ahead of all of the students. But the school was all white. There was a couple of students that were-- JJ: What school was [00:13:00] it? OL: Yates. Yates Elementary in Richmond, in Wabansia. I went there and I graduated from there. And since they put me back several grades in 1958, I went to summer school to at Wells High School to get double promoted so I could catch up. And then by the time I got to high school-- JJ: Was that common with people doing that? OL: Well, a lot of the guys that were going to summer school was because they were failing. I was going there because I needed to take additional courses so I could move up. But it is interesting because that’s where I began to have a little more contact with Puerto Ricans when I went to summer school at Wells, and they were coming from other schools. 8 �JJ: So it was a white community, but the summer school was full of Spanish speakers. OL: They had a lot of Spanish speakers, but they were coming from a different area. They were coming from the southeast end [00:14:00] because that’s where the families were around Chicago Avenue, Ashland, Noble. That way. JJ: Okay. That was Chicago Noble in that area, right? OL: Yeah. Okay. That’s where they came from. I mean, I came from the other extreme, which is Humboldt Park, but that’s where I started to have contact with-- JJ: This is in 1958, so they’re coming from Chicago and Noble around 1958. OL: Nineteen-fifty eight, 1959, right, 1960. So that was my first contact with Puerto Ricans. Well, no, actually, there was one student in Yates that was Puerto Rican, but I think he was born in Chicago and didn’t speak a lot of Spanish. They put me in the same room with him because he was supposed to help me translate, but he didn’t speak Spanish very good. So it was not much help, but it was nice to have been with him. His name was [Joe Ortiz?]. [00:15:00] But yes, so summer school was sort of the first contact that I had with Puerto Rican, 1959, 1960, 1961. And of course, when I went to high school the first year, then there was really a lot more Latino Mexicans and Puerto Ricans there. So that was in essence, the group that I started to hang around. JJ: So the neighborhood is changing over now slowly, right, into Latino or because it’s Humboldt Park. I mean, today is like the heart of, or not today, but not so long ago, it was the heart of the -- OL: The Puerto Rican community. 9 �JJ: So it starts to change in the 1960s, is that what? OL: In the 1960s it starts changing because, and the movement was coming from the east, coming West. JJ: So from the [Main?] and that coming west. OL: Right, right. [00:16:00] I think that when they built Carl Sandberg Village, a lot of ’em went to Lincoln Park. A lot of the families that were displaced, and a lot of ’em went towards Humboldt Park and this area. So I think that was that kind of shift, demographic shift going on because of urban renewal. So again, high school was where I began to have a lot more contact with Puerto Ricans. JJ: Now, was there any youth groups among the ethnic groups, the white ethnic communities? OL: There were, especially when I got into high school. Well, when I was in grammar school, we used to get some of this youth groups incursions. I was-- [00:17:00] just came from Mexico. I was brand new. I didn’t understand the concept of a gang, but that’s what it was. Gangs were coming into the neighborhood, and they were mostly from the areas of Western and Chicago Avenue. There was a group that was called Chi-West, and they had cars. So they would come into the neighborhood and harass some of the young guys. And since I was totally alien to the concept of gangs, and I used to tell the guys, “Come on, let’s go at ’em.” And they were afraid. I couldn’t understand why. Even in high school, I wanted to get people together too, because there was, in high school, there were more gangs that were mostly Italian and they were Polish, also. JJ: In Wells? 10 �OL: No, Wells was summer school. When I went to high school at Tuley High School, Tuley High School. And that’s where they were [00:18:00] more youth. They were Italians and they were rough. But because at the time the Puerto Rican youth was just beginning to select structure itself, also in groups. And then that’s where several groups began to grow, at least in my area. In my area, around the early 1960s, we used to have the Latin Angels. That was one of them. And for a while, there was the-- JJ: Latin Angels was a Puerto Rican group. OL: There was a Puerto Rican group, the Latin Angels, Puerto Rican, and then there was the Trojans. They were there. There was one group that came and went there. It was called the [409ers?]. JJ: So they were beginning to form? OL: Yeah, to form. JJ: Because actually, I believe the Latin Angels were even before the Kings at the-- OL: Oh, yeah, yeah. The Latin Angels were [00:19:00] in the early 1960s. Early 1960s. And I used to know a lot of them because-- JJ: And they were on Division Street. That was their-- OL: Yeah, that’s how I came in contact with ’em, because I got a job at a hot dog stand and that hot dog stand on Division and Maplewood used to be sort of like the focus, even before the Latin Angels, the Puerto Ricans that I began to hang around with were from that corner. And it was like from that hot dog stand that we would take off to go into fights. Either we went to Humboldt--Division and Kedzie or anywhere else, but we used to get together. And after the fight, that’s 11 �where we used to come back right there. So that hot dog stand. So I knew a lot of them. JJ: We used to go there because we were friends with the Latin Angels. OL: [00:20:00] Angels. Okay. Well, I think that also my first contact or my first knowledge of the Young Lords-- JJ: Because actually all the Latino gangs were kind of together at the time. There was a more racial-- OL: Yeah, because I don’t know, you remember that the YMCA used to bring us all together at the Duncan YMCA? JJ: Exactly. OL: All the groups used to come in there. There wasn’t that kind of friction that there is today. But the first contact I had with my knowledge of the Young Lords was also through a hillbilly. Kenny Smith was his name, and Kenny Smith was white. And one time we were driving around Western, I had a 1952 Mercury, four door. Four doors was important because they could come in and out quick. And we’re driving around Western and Rice, [00:21:00] Chopin school, and that’s where the Chi-West people were, Chi-West. And of course, they yelled at us and they chased us. And Kenny Smith was all offended. I says, “Oh man, let’s go get my friends.” He said “Who are your friends?” And I said, “Well, the Young Lords here on,” he wanted me to drive him to Armitage and just east of Halsted, there was a playground burning. That’s where they hanging around. He wanted me to go get ’em. That was sort my first knowledge of the Young Lords. But on this 12 �side, it was the Latin Angels, this where they used that corner. They used to come around that hot dog stand. JJ: And then Levitt and Schiller, you had the Kings, where they started. OL: Well, then later on, the Levitt and Schiller was where the Kings really were born. Levitt and Schiller. It was right next to a school. JJ: Wasn’t there a group called the Young Centers? OL: [00:22:00] They were the Young Sinners. JJ: Was the Young Sinners, right? OL: Yeah, yeah. Kings. Yeah. Then there was Hispanic Lords. JJ: Spanish Lords were further up there. OL: Yeah. JJ: So they kind of all formed around the same time. And they all got along at that time. OL: At the time, yeah. At the time, there was not a problem between gangs. And I think that the fact was that families were moving into those neighborhoods, so they were brand new. And what I always say is that the young people were the ones that were carving out safe spaces for Latino-- for their families to move in, because the adults, the parents, they were busy working, but the youth were the ones that really had the scrimmages with the other ethnic gangs. And that was, I see it as a process of carving out the neighborhoods for [00:23:00] for families. And that was going on everywhere. Everywhere where Latino families were moving in. And you could go back and see it happening around 55th and Emerald. You had the Emerald Knights over there, and you had, there was 13 �another one, the Latin Souls. It happened in Lincoln Park with the Young Lords, the Black Eagles. JJ: Flaming Arrows. OL: Right. Paragons. The (inaudible). JJ: (inaudible) OL: So those were the youth groups that were, in essence, whether they knew it or not, they were once carving out those neighborhoods for the families and on this side, things like the Latin Angels, and then later the Latin Kings and the other groups that organized. JJ: So when you say carving out, [00:24:00] why did they have to carve out? I mean, what? OL: Well, for example, the displacement that was going on around the city through urban renewal was really pushing or really creating a shift in the population. So Latino families were moving into neighborhoods, not because they wanted to, you know, but because they had to. And it usually had to move into neighborhoods that were already an ethnic neighborhood. In the Humboldt Park area, I think it was primarily Polish, Ukrainian, Italian. And those ethnic groups were already established. But when the Latino families, in this case, the Puerto Rican families begin to move in and start pushing, then the friction begins. And so then you will hear a lot of stories from young, well, today will be old people, but when they were young that they had [00:25:00] problems just going to school. They always talk about, “I had to run to school and run back home.” But that’s what was happening. And so even some of the guys that had to run to school 14 �and run back, at one point or another got together and they formed their groups to defend themselves and in that defense that’s when they were beginning to carve out that neighborhood for themselves. JJ: And what about organization wise and businesses, when did they start coming in? OL: Division Street was really hopping in the 1960s. By 1963, 1964, I mean, you had Puerto Ricans living, at least from Damen all the way to California. That was so-[00:26:00] practically all Puerto Rican. And because there was that wave of new Puerto Rican families coming into the city. So they were moving into neighborhoods like Division Street. And so because of that, there was a lot of mercados. There was a lot of grocery stores on the corners, and they were real good businessmen. They really bloomed in terms of business, furniture stores, clothing stores, jewelry--jewelry stores. I mean, you had all of it on Division Street, [carons?], social clubs, so all along Division Street, you had that. And you had people on the street every day, all day, twenty-four hours a day. I mean, it was really a street that was busy and hopping, and a lot of things were going on Division Street. So there was a strong business community, [00:27:00] a strong business community that I began to see. And again, looking at it in retrospect, right around the middle of 1960s, late 1960s, a lot of those businessmen that were successful, they began to go back to Puerto Rico. So then they began to, as they left, they created a vacuum in the community in terms of business. And so the mercados were beginning to disappear and access to food and things was beginning to change. Then you had to go to National, because that was the big 15 �supermarket. Then what we have Jewel today, that was National then. But that was a vacuum then. JJ: So why do you think they left? I mean, at that time? OL: I think that because they were very successful, they were all businessmen, and they knew [00:28:00] how to save. And when they were ready, they moved with everything. A lot of them opened up their businesses in Puerto Rico. JJ: Because that was their intention, basically. OL: Their intention, I think, was, yeah, to come, make money and then go back and they did. A lot of ’em stayed, but Division Street was not the same once all of this group of businessmen began to pick up and go. I think it suffered economically, the community suffered economically because of that. The money wasn’t staying in the community anymore. The money was going up, people had to shop elsewhere. But I think it was very strong economically. There were jobs, Puerto Ricans were working, they were all employed, but at the same time that the adults were moving in and finding jobs and struggling, and [00:29:00] the young people were going to school, what I said, carving out the neighborhood with the scrimmages, with the other ethnic gangs, and saw the relationship between the youth and the police was the one that was really tense. And we adults too, but not adults as much, because they were at work eight hours a day. But the young people were on the streets all the time, and they were getting harassed constantly by the police. I insist that during those days, the police department didn’t have the requirements that they have today to become a policeman. And so a lot, the former gang members from other ethnic groups 16 �became policemen. So they weren’t going to be very nice to Puerto Rican gangs when the friction was still going on between their former gang and the new gangs that were popping up in the neighborhood. So the harassment was really intense [00:30:00] everywhere. Everywhere. It wasn’t just on Division, it was on the South Side. It was in Lincoln Park. So the young people were really developing this very antagonistic relationship with the police department. And then you had the adults, they had their organizations too. JJ: What were some of these groups? OL: You talk about the Los Caballeros de San Juan, [Posta Boricua?], (Spanish), the Catholic Church was pretty active then. So you had the Cardinals Committee for Spanish speaking people. So the adults were working at establishing not legitimate, but acceptable organizations. And they were working at establishing the [00:31:00] community as an acceptable community to the city government, for example. And I think that the adults, all the work that they did, all the organizing that they did paid off. And even they had two factions going at the time. The [Posta Boricua?] was on one side, the Puerto Rican Congress and others were on the other side, but they decided to come together. The Caballeros de San Juan used to have their parade every year, but they came together and they decided to have one parade downtown. And for them, that was a symbol of acceptance and credibility before the eyes of the entire city. So they succeeded. They were successful in that sense. They established that, and they had in 1966, their first Puerto Rican parade [00:32:00] downtown. But it happened that at the same time, the youth were being harassed and all this 17 �friction was building up that when there was an incident between the policeman and a young man that was shot, I think he was shot in the foot or something like that. Everything blew up. And people couldn’t explain that. Why -- I mean, they just had to parade downtown and now they’re having a riot. And it was that because it was two parallel developments in the community; the youth that was being harassed by the police, the youth that was fighting, having scrimmages to, like I said, carving out a safe space for the families, and the adults that were going to work, trying to establish conventional organizations. It was parallel. And the youth, when they exploded, they exploded. They were a lot more impactful in the community. So in 1966, [00:33:00] after a Sunday, I believe it was June 14, the riots began. JJ: The youth got shot you said? OL: He was shot, the police -- JJ: Aracelis or something? OL: Aracelis -- I forgot last name. I’ll remember in a minute. Cruz. Aracelis Cruz. So police began, I mean the people began to protest what had happened there. And since everybody was out because of the Parade and because it was a celebration, there was a lot of people out in the street. And I think the police not being experienced seeing crowds like this, they called in the K-9 unit. So they brought out the dogs, and I think the dogs did bit some people, and [00:34:00] that was the end. I think Puerto Ricans, and I think other Latinos, have some very specific ideas about their self. And I think if a human being strikes you, it’s understandable. There’s another one, you’re fighting and someone hits you, but 18 �when someone with a dog comes and has the dog bite you and attack you, it’s a dog. You’re being attacked by dog. I think that had a lot to do. Bringing the dogs out had a lot to do with how the community understood how they were being seen by the police. And I think that was very offensive. Very offensive to the community. But again, I think it was the youth that kept three days [00:35:00] and three nights of rioting, not the adults. The adults were trying to calm everything down. The established organizations were on the street every day, like the Caballeros San Juan. They were out trying to calm things down. The youth, I mean, this I think was the first time that the youth could strike back at that entity that always harassed them without having to be arrested or without paying the consequences. So the bottles and the stones and the sticks and everything -- that they flew for three days and three nights. And the youth being very mobile, you could see them on Maple and Division now, and two minutes later, they were three blocks away. And so it was that kind of movement. It was obvious that it was the youth. And I think from the [00:36:00] East side, Damen and Division, there was a group there that kept it going. But then on the West side, let’s say from California and Division, there was another group, and I think that was the beginning of the Kings, the Latin Kings, were -- there was a group that kept it going on this side. So that happened three days and three nights. And I think that affected also a lot, affected the businessmen a lot. JJ: How did it affect the business? 19 �OL: Well, I think that they had a very negative reaction. And I don’t know, maybe thinking about it, maybe that’s one thing that helped to make a decision to move back to Puerto Rico because this was 1966. JJ: Because some of their businesses were destroyed. OL: And I think that that was one negative aspect of the riot. Of any riot. Any riot. [00:37:00] You can understand striking at authorities that harass you and oppress you, but then a line is crossed where you begin to loot businesses, break windows and steal from the businesses. And I think that’s the other extreme of the riot. JJ: How did the city respond? Mayor Richard J. Daley was the mayor. OL: Yeah. Well, Mayor Daley, he wasn’t ready -- the city wasn’t ready for a Puerto Rican riot. They were ready for an African-American riot. That’s what they were expecting when the summer came, but this was June, so they weren’t ready. And of course, they did the regular thing of sending police and trying to find the leadership that would calm things down. [00:38:00] There was a lot of meetings going on there between the established leadership and the city. The youth though, was the one that was pushing for changes. And I think that one of the things that came out of it, it’s interesting that the height of -- the height requirement for policemen to be policemen was too high for -- the young kids felt that for Puerto Ricans in this case, or Hispanics, that’s why they said that was the reason why you didn’t have a lot of policemen because they were all too short. So the mayor had to lower the height requirements so that Hispanics could join 20 �the police force. That was one of the demands that came from the community. But the mayor also-JJ: So a group of people got together and wrote a demand? OL: A group of people got together and they [00:39:00] drew up a whole series of demands. JJ: What sort of groups were involved with that? OL: Well, it’s interesting because there was a lot of the representation from the youth groups were there. JJ: So the youth were involved? OL: Yes. And they were the ones that were coming up with some of the demands. But the mayor responded by forming a commission to study the situation in the Puerto Rican community. And of course, they came out with a lot of recommendations they had to do with the youth-- employment, education, housing, health. I mean, in all of them it was falling short, the city was falling short. So recommendations came out to start addressing those problems. Out of the riots came a series of recommendations. For the first time, they opened up [00:40:00] what they used to call the Urban Progress Centers, and they opened the first Urban Progress Center in the Latino community, was on Division and Damen. And the first director was Samuel Betances. And at the time, he was a young man that wanted also to be involved in doing some things. And I think he was already employed by the city at the time. Later on, he went to Boston and went to Harvard and got a PhD. And today he’s an authority on diversity training, and he’s done diversity training all over the world. But that was 21 �the first director of the Urban Progress Center. And there are all the things that came out of it. But the one thing that came out of it that was almost like new to the Latino community was advocacy groups [00:41:00] that demanded things for the community. JJ: What were some of these advocacy groups? OL: Well, then out of the riots came SACC, the Spanish Action Committee of Chicago. There was another group that ABC, The Allies for a Better Community, and also the Latin American Defense Organization, LADO. And I think that of the three, LADO was the more militant group that always, out of the principles of action that they had, this is the last resource is going to be direct action. Well, after they would exhaust all the other means, they always ended up taking actions and picketing, demonstrating, marches. But it was something that the Latino community in Chicago wasn’t used to yet. This kind of activity, I call it advocacy, the demonstrations [00:42:00] and demanding services. So this also came out, I think, out of the riots, this new approach to the problems of the community. That was 1966. JJ: Now, going a little further than 1966, what were you doing after that? OL: Well, by 1966, I already had been married, and I had a daughter. As a matter of fact, my six months in high school, I was already married, and I had my daughter a month after I graduated from high school. So then after high school, I had to go to work. I stopped working at the hot dog stand, got a job. I had to go get a job that would pay me a little more. I had a daughter by that time. So I went to [00:43:00] work at Western Electric. A lot of Puerto Ricans were working at 22 �Western Electric. I met a lot of ’em there. As a matter of fact, my friends that we used to hang around together on Maplewood and Division, they were there. My family, there was three or four of my-- two of my brothers worked there. So Western Electric used to employ a lot of Latinos. So I was working there. JJ: Is this Western Electric South or no? OL: Western Electric was on Cermak and Cicero. JJ: Right, right. OL: Yeah. So that was in 1966. I graduated in 1964, so it was already two years. And it was interesting because my wife and I decided that we were going to continue going to school one way or the other. JJ: What was your wife’s name? OL: My wife at the time was Ada Lopez. Ada Lopez was the daughter of Graciano Lopez, who was the first president of the Puerto Rican Parade Committee. JJ: [00:44:00] That’s right, I remember. OL: But we had decided that we were going to continue school. So we started going to Loop City College, which is now Harold Washington college, part time at night, just taking one class here, one class there. So we still continued going to school, but being very active by (inaudible), we were founding members of LADO. So we were doing a lot of the work also in terms of community organizing. We started doing a lot of that. In LADO also we had people that were draft resistors, for example, we had Sijisfredo Avilés, I think he was the first Puerto Rican draft resistor. He went to jail for it. He served time because he refused to go to the 23 �Army, to serve in the Army. [00:45:00] So there was all this kind of activity going on. JJ: Who were some of the other players in LADO? OL: Well, in LADO, the founding members were, first of all, my brother Obed. There was a young Afro-Puerto Rican that was actually one of the organizers with Martin Luther King’s Southern Christian Leadership Conference. His name was, [Andres?]--and I don’t remember the last name, but he was part of it. Another young student, Puerto Rican student at Tuley High School was [Miguel?]. Man, I’m forgetting all those names. Miguel. He was also part of it. My ex-wife, Ada, myself, [00:46:00] Olga Pedroza was also, she was a case worker in the welfare department at the time. So those were the first group of people in LADO that started doing community organizing. And of course, at the same time-- JJ: Community organizing around what issues? OL: The issue, the main issue was welfare. Welfare, because again, you were having a lot of displacement of families. And the displacement, there was a lot of needs that families had. Also, when new families were arriving from Puerto Rico, they also needed assistance in settling, and the welfare department was not responding. JJ: And which office were you mainly-- OL: At the time the welfare office was on Milwaukee and Damen, what is now the Flat Iron building. That was where they had -- JJ: What was it called? Wasn’t that Wicker Park? OL: The Wicker [00:47:00] Park Welfare Office. 24 �JJ: Which was the office for Lincoln Park people. OL: They also came from Lincoln Park. JJ: So they had, when they were displaced from there, like you said-- OL: Yeah, they had to come there. JJ: Issues. OL: And so then LADO was taking care of some of that, demanding that they get services demand, that they get the assistance that was due to them. And so LADO became a family-based organization because you were not dealing with, which is one member of the family you were not dealing with. You were dealing with problem solvers of family. So the whole family used to be members of LADO. And so then LADO, that’s what it became. LADO was families. Families that were from the neighborhood. And so then when LADO would have a demonstration, and you had all these mothers and young kids that were [00:48:00] demonstrations in the marches, and the kids at the time, they saw their parents being active, and they became active themselves. JJ: And after that, what did you get involved in after that? OL: Well, because I was going to Loop College, the one thing that we realized in LADO was that students needed to be organized also. So when I was going part time, I decided to start an organization at Loop College, and I talked to some of the other students that were Latino students, Mexicans that would come from 18th Street, and decided that we needed to form a student organization. And so we got a group together and we called it OLAS, the Organization of Latin 25 �American Students. At Loop Junior College. And so the interesting thing about that is-JJ: Which today is Carol Washington. OL: Carol Washington [00:49:00] College. And OLAS still exists today since 1968 until today. They’re still there. The big difference, I think at the time was that first of all, the students were coming from the neighborhoods. And the other one, one of the principles of the organization was, yeah, we’re studying, and we may be getting a degree, but we’re supposed to go back to the neighborhood. We have to return to our barrio. That’s what we needed. We used to criticize students that would go get a degree, and then they move out. I said, “No, the work’s got to be done in the neighborhood.” So we may get trained and we may get a degree, but we have to go back to the neighborhood. So that was a movement also in the student movement to go back and bring back the skills to the neighborhood. So I [00:50:00] think that was unique and that was unique of OLAS. And so then OLAS also got involved with LADO because of that, because the area of activity was in the community. So that was interesting. JJ: So you did work, I mean, you were recruiting students too? OL: Recruiting students. Organizing students. And we would go and talk to students in the high schools and other colleges and universities to get ’em organized. JJ: So you expanded to other-- OL: Yeah, yeah. We were into an expansionist mode. But of course, I don’t know if this is good or bad, but all of my tendencies from when I used to be on Division and Maplewood, I mean, we had ’em, a lot of, still had a lot of street in us, and 26 �our loyalties were still very street. [00:51:00] So for that reason, when I became directly in contact with the Young Lords in 1968. JJ: How did that happen? Do you recall? OL: Well, yeah, I remember that there was a urban training center on Washington and Ashland, and it was part of the Presbyterian Church, but people used to come there and be trained to be organizers, and they had conferences and presentations. And I remember one time that I went there, it was on a Saturday, beautiful Saturday. It probably was late summer. No, yeah, maybe even before. But nevertheless, that’s where I met you and Ralph ‘Spaghetti’ Rivera. [00:52:00] And you were in the process of reorganizing the Young Lords. And we talked, and again, a lot of the students, our loyalty was still very street. So I had no problems relating to you, relating to Ralph and understanding the things that you were doing. So that was the first, the contact, again, from when Kenny Smith told me, “Let’s go get the Young Lords,” to 1968, early 1968, I think that I sort reestablished the communications with the Young Lords. JJ: Yes, summer and fall. OL: So then at the time, Ralph, and you were developing the symbol for the Young Lords, [00:53:00] and you told me what it was, and I helped draw that, the map, the fist, the rifle. That was my contribution to the development of the Young Lord button. And so then we continued working because in the demonstrations that we had against welfare, for example, we had demonstrations that were LADO, OLAS, the Young Lords, and through the Young Lords contacts, the Black Panthers. So the demonstrations that we had were not just one group. It was a 27 �coalition of groups. And as a matter of fact, also from the neighborhood, lot of the-JJ: Actually, Fred Hampton was arrested with myself and your brother. OL: At one of the welfare offices. JJ: A couple times at the Wicker Park Welfare office. OL: At the Welfare, yeah. Yeah. Because the African American community was also being affected by the lack of services from the welfare department. So that [00:54:00] was-- JJ: They had the coalition. OL: The Rainbow Coalition, the Rainbow Coalition was going on, right. So it was a very interesting, the Rainbow Coalition was able to mobilize in that manner. And I don’t know, it is difficult to see that happen again. But nevertheless, that was, again, they continued contact with the Young Lords. So then at one point you asked me to help a little more with the Young Lords. And I think at the time you needed to have someone deal with a lot of the propaganda, the writing releases, things like that. So you asked me to come in as the Minister of Information for the Young Lords. And that was right around the takeover of McCormick Theological Seminary that I came as a Young Lords Minister of Information. JJ: So [00:55:00] what were you doing? I mean, you were writing the releases? OL: Yeah, and of course, we had a lot of contact with the Panthers. A lot of the things that we did, we tried to fashion it to the Panthers, the newspaper, all the things, even the structure. We had chairman ministers, because we saw that they were effective in organizing, especially in organizing street youth. That kind 28 �of structure was effective rather than to have, oh, here you have the president and the secretary. No, it had to be more structured in that way. JJ: But were we organized before that? Because a lot of people think that the Panthers organized this. OL: Oh, no, no, no, no. The Young Lords existed again from the early [00:56:00] 1960s. And then a lot of the work in reorganizing and reorienting the activities of the Young Lords was when you came back into the neighborhood and started to do that. So this was before the Panthers, and I think-- JJ: Before our connection, before our connection. OL: Before the connection of the Panthers. And I think one of the characteristics of the Young Lords in Chicago is that its membership was all neighborhood. It was rooted in the community. You didn’t have people coming in from Indiana and joining. You didn’t have people coming from-- No, it was so a community base, a community rooted organization that decided to take action. And I think that was part of the effectiveness of the Young Lords. You remember that when we called [00:57:00] a march, we didn’t call it a month ahead or two weeks ahead, it would be overnight. He says, “We got a demonstration.” And the word went out and people showed up. It was all neighborhood people. JJ: And were there a few people there, or -- OL: No, overnight you get a thousand people out. Why? Because the network was already there. If one of the Young Lords heard it, he passed the word, and that one passed the word. And there was a network was already set up. So it wasn’t like, it wasn’t an artificial organization that you said, “Okay, now we are going to 29 �call ourselves the Young Lords.” And no, it was something that was homegrown and it grew from the bottom up. So I think that was unique and that’s what made it effective. And then of course, then after yours always come groups that become [00:58:00] organized or they organize, but they don’t have the characteristic of the original Chicago Young Lords, which was that it was rooted in the community. So we were responding to the community, and it becomes obvious that it’s a community based group. Studs Terkel. One time we had a festival, a festival, it was in August of 1969 probably. And of course we played with words, I think we said, “We’re going to Roast the Pigs.” It was a festival in Puerto Rico, you roast pigs, right? But here you tell you were telling people we’re going to roast the pig, well, they thought it was a policeman. So it was an interesting play with concept. But nevertheless, that festival-JJ: [00:59:00] And the festival was in front of the church. OL: The festival was on Dayton and Armitage, in front of the headquarters of the Young Lords. JJ: The Methodist Church, the first block party. OL: It was probably the first one. JJ: After that there were block parties all the time. OL: Everywhere. But here, the interesting thing is Studs Terkel, who’s already very famous in terms of being an excellent interviewer, he came and interviewed people. And with that program that he did-- JJ: It was live. 30 �OL: Well, I don’t remember if it was live, but I know that from that program, he won a prize. JJ: An Emmy or something. OL: Yeah, something. But in that interview that they made of several people, adults, he would ask them, “How do you feel in this neighborhood? Is it secure? Is it more dangerous now with the Young Lords here?” And the response was, “No, I feel safer.” This is where adults talking to [01:00:00] Studs Terkel and saying, “No, I feel safer.” So again, that’s another indication that the Young Lords were really community. And the actions that the Young Lords were taking were not alien to the community. They people, adults related to that. Maybe adults couldn’t participate anymore, but they were not against us. They supported the actions of the Young Lords. So I think that, again-- JJ: You’re saying that the community was safe or was a feeling of security in the community with the Young Lords. OL: With the Young Lords. JJ: Versus what they’re saying, what they had said later. OL: And not only that, they could say that’s a subjective opinion of someone, but do you look at the statistics also? We looked at the statistics, the police at that time and crime went down in Lincoln Park when the Young Lords were there. JJ: You looked at this? OL: The statistics were there. I remember we looked at them, and I’m sure probably [01:01:00] Studs Terkel looked at ’em too. But again, going back to what made the Young Lords unique, I think that was part of it. That was part of it. And the 31 �other thing is that I think the Young Lords embodied a lot of the principles, dreams of a whole wave of activists that came from Puerto Rico to the United States, in this case, to Chicago. And this kind of view of the world and view of the island that was transmitted to the Young Lords from people that came from Puerto Rico had a lot to do. And I’m talking specifically about the decision that the Young Lords take to promote the independence of Puerto Rico, selfdetermination. The concept was self-determination. So self-determination for nations [01:02:00] included Puerto Rico. But I think a lot of that influence came from, again, a wave of adults that had come to the United States that were independentistas and nacionalistas, and they were still in the scene. And I remember that we used to get visits very often from a gentleman by the name of Manuel Ravago. And he was a nationalist. And I remember that he’s the one that, he gave us the nationalist flag, and he gave us a flag of the Lares. He was the one that was feeding us. And at the time, I don’t know how many of us were conscious of who this man was. And it’s not until later that you begin to place him in the history of the nationalist [01:03:00] movement. And Manuel Ravago was very active. I think that, well, no, he was directly connected to the nationalists that came to Congress and shut up Congress, Lolita Lebrón and [Coso?] and others. He was part of that group. So all of that kind of energy and nationalist energy, he deposited all that in the Young Lords. And that was another aspect that gave the Young Lords a lot more body as an organization. We could have stayed a neighborhood organization and fought urban renewal and provide health care, and that will be the end. But when we began to talk 32 �about self-determination, that put the Young Lords [01:04:00] in a different plane. And again, I’m saying that that type of political position that we assumed it was effective and had an impact, not just in Chicago, but all around the United States because of the history of the nationalists that had done all that work since 1952. Manuel Ravago was from Jayuya, and they still had that impetus from the Grito de Jayuya, from the rebellion in 1952 in Jayuya. So all of those things combined made the Young Lords very unique. The fact they were community-based, community rooted in the community, providing services, breakfast for children, clothing, the health clinic, [01:05:00] all of those things we were providing at the community level, but we were also providing the people, the families, with an ideal beyond the basic needs. And that was self-determination. So that made the Lords unique. JJ: They were other, for example, went to Denver, a couple of buses or busload? OL: In 1968, 1969. JJ: Did you go to Denver? OL: Yeah, yeah. In 1968 and 1969, the southwest of the United States was also very active politically. And the Chicano movement was really going at the time. And one of the leaders in the southwest was Rodolfo “Corky” Gonzales, who headed the Crusade for Justice in Denver. And [01:06:00] he had a lot of young people too involved. And they decided to have the National Chicano Youth Conference. And because we had communications with the southwest, LADO had communications, OLAS. The Young Lords, I mean all of the groups, progressive groups that we had here with them. They called that conference and we decided 33 �that we needed to go and we needed to take young people. And it was interesting because we weren’t just going with community activists. We decided to take gangs, members of different gangs. And so we had the Young Lords, but the Latin Kings participated. From 18th Street, we had the Latin Counts, Ambrose and Rampant. And for the first time, south side and north side, we were coming together, not fighting, but coming together. And [01:07:00] we rode in the same bus. It was two buses. We rode in the same buses from Chicago to Denver, and they all came back impacted by the Chicano movement and ready to be active. Can we take a little, I’m afraid, talking about the Young Lords all this time. JJ: Okay. OL: Okay, so then going back about the uniqueness of the Young Lords, that’s what it was. So that’s what makes it unique. I think that then after, in the 1960s, because of all the political activity around the nation, so we were invited to the Denver Conference, we took these groups and they had a big impact. It had an impact on other youth groups in Chicago. I think the Latin Kings, at one point, when they came back, they decided to call themselves the Latin King Organization, and they wanted to start doing the very same [01:08:00] actions as the Young Lords. They wanted to have breakfast for children. They wanted to have a health clinic. Of course, I think that what happened probably was the leadership was unable to really steer the Kings in that direction. So they went in an entirely different direction at the time. But I think that’s what makes it unique. All the groups come up after the Young Lords that are effective. They have good 34 �programs, but that are formed. They are organized to do certain things, but nothing like the Young Lords in Chicago. The Young Lords Chicago were community rooted and responding to community needs. We didn’t have to do a paper, a position paper on the needs of the community. [01:09:00] We were living those needs. If it was displacement, we had to go to the real estate offices that were pushing people out. And that’s why the confrontation with Fat Larry, for example. JJ: Who was that, can you describe that? OL: Fat Larry was the head of Bissell Realty, and they were part of the whole displacement of families. So when we find this out, then the Young Lords went and confronted, you were one of the people that came and confronted Fat Larry. And Fat Larry, of course, responded the way that he was used to. And he came out with one gun on one side and a shotgun on the other. And we have pictures that when the police come in, they don’t do anything with Fat Larry with two guns, but they start searching you for weapons, which was strange. But anyway, so we didn’t have to do research on the needs of the community. We were living those needs. So we were responding [01:10:00] to real needs, and that’s what made us effective. We didn’t have to spend three weeks doing research. Not all of our positions were the positions of a progressive organization. We have to admit, we never wrote a paper on the Young Lord’s position on women. We didn’t have that luxury. Even the people that had been trained at the university level that were Young Lords were not academicians. JJ: So there were some people that were trained at the university level? 35 �OL: In the Young Lords, we had people with university training. JJ: Who were some of these people? OL: Well, to begin with, you look at the Minister of Health. [Alberto Chavira?] was a medical student at Northwestern University, then later became a doctor. He was the minister of information for the, he was a doctor and he was community based. [01:11:00] He became a doctor. JJ: Actually, he was a leader of a student, medical students. OL: The medical students at Northwestern. JJ: And they helped form the clinic. OL: They would organize medical students to be part of the free health clinic movement in Chicago. We had, did I run out people that were trained? Well myself, I was still going to school, but I was not an academician. We had our Minister of Education, Tony Baez, who was a university student in Puerto Rico. So we had people that they had academic training, but we were all focused on responding to the needs the community had. We were not responding to academic demands or intellectual [01:12:00] demands of publishing position papers on women, publish position papers on the national question. All those things are exercises for intellectuals. That was not us. That was not us. We were direct action and we were responding to needs that were present in our community. It doesn’t mean that we weren’t-- we studied, we studied. I think Tony Baez, Minister of Education, made sure that we had a module that people had to read about the history of Puerto Rico. I think you could get a seventeenyear-old that was what we call the cadres and they could tell you the whole 36 �history of Puerto Rico in the independence movement, because that was part of the training in the Young Lords. But we read political papers, we read On Contradictions by Mao Zedong, and that [01:13:00] was very helpful in understanding problems and how to solve problems and how to identify the enemy. Because today the problem is that people don’t understand who the enemy is. Or sometimes it’s someone who’s not an enemy and they treat ’em as enemies because they don’t have a way of analyzing problems or what Mao called contradictions. We did, and we were very clear on who our friends were and who our enemies were, and that made us very effective. So it’s not like we were not interested in learning. We were not interested in intellectual exercises. And I think that separated us from other organizations that would look at us as if we were just simply a bunch of [lumpen?] They thought that because we didn’t come out with position papers like that, we were not [01:14:00] following the correct line, the correct political line. As far as I’m concerned, we were following the right political line because we were responding to the needs that our community had. That’s the correct line, because it doesn’t make sense for you to follow correct line when you’re not serving the people. So I think that’s important to understand about the Young Lords in Chicago. I think that if you look at our newspaper, for example. The newspaper that we put out is not work of intellectuals. You read it and it’s not nice. I mean, it’s not really nice. I mean, run on sentences and all kinds of things that you look at like, “What the hell, who wrote this?” Because it was people in the organization that were expressing themselves and we put it in the newspaper because it was important for us to let 37 �people know what our members were thinking. But they didn’t follow all the rules [01:15:00] of a journalist because we were not. Other organizations had that kind of discipline, so they put out real nice newspapers, but we didn’t. But we did deliver the message though. We did deliver the message, and I think that was important. But we had all kinds of people in the organization, not only at different levels of academic training, but different economic levels, different nationalities. The Young Lords, the Young Lords from its beginning was an international group from when it was gang to when it was a political organization. We had Mexicans, Puerto Ricans, African-Americans, whites. So I think that was unique. That was unique. JJ: [01:16:00] You mentioned women, that it wasn’t an intellectual thing about the women. What do you mean? OL: Well, I mean, the Young Lords always had women in the organization, the Lordettes, for example. But there were young women that were part of the Young Lords from the beginning, and they stayed with the Young Lords. And the relationship that between members was not the progressive position, but they were given their place. They were not given their place--they took their place because, for example, one of the women leaders in the group, Angie, she formed the MAO, Mothers And Others because at the time, a lot of the women in the organization were mothers. And so as Mothers And Others, [01:17:00] they made sure that women in the organization had a place. It wasn’t that we gave ’em a place, they took their place. And I think we never fought that. We accepted that. So it wasn’t like we were a male dominated organization, that 38 �whatever we said had to go in terms of women. The women group was there and they made sure that they were respected, but we were not the academic type. We said, “Okay, this is our position on women and this is the history of the women in society.” And we didn’t do that. We responded to the needs at the time, and they were very much part of the organization. JJ: In fact, wasn’t there a daycare center that we were working on together? OL: Yeah. Again, one of the responses of the Young Lords was, “Hey, [01:18:00] there’s kids that need daycare.” And that was one of the ideas of the church when we took over the church, was to put the basement in order so that it could be a daycare center, except the city would not allow us to do that. Remember, we complained that they came out with things like, your ceiling system is way too high, or your floors are too low, so they’re out of compliance. But, and that was of course concerns that the women brought up and we would try to address. JJ: And we also had, you mentioned the clinic already, and the Breakfast for Children Program. OL: Those were programs that they were, the service programs that we had established to respond to very specific needs that the community had. And I think the other part that I think is [01:19:00] important to understand is Chicago was going through a very interesting time, and we had a very interesting mayor. Mayor Daley was not a very tolerant mayor. He’s the one that declared during the riots on the west side, “Shoot to kill,” looters. That was his position. And so we were challenging that structure and in demonstrations that we had, he used the force of the police department to disorganize the Young Lords, to squash the 39 �Young Lords, to drain the resources from the organization by arresting the leadership. And a lot of money would [01:20:00] be tied up in bail money. So we didn’t have a mayor that even accepted that the Young Lords were doing something positive. I think if we look at the New York Lords, they had a mayor that was John Lindsay, who was a liberal that I’m glad that he was there, and I’m glad that they were functioning in those years because they were able to do things that we were unable to do in Chicago. They were able to do, for example, they took over this TV unit and brought it to the barrio, and they were successful, and that was very good because they were able to give services to the barrio, to the community. Had we tried to do that in Chicago, we’d be dead today. So there was a big difference in terms of [01:21:00] actions and in terms of responses that we had to adjust ourselves to. But we did. We did. JJ: And you said we did. What do you mean we did? OL: Well, I mean, we still challenged the structure and we still deliver services. JJ: Wait, what is it we challenged? OL: Well, the police brutality was one of the things. We challenged urban renewal. Then when we took over McCormick Theological Seminary, actually our challenge was to the city structure that was pushing the program, urban renewal, and it was McCormick Theological Seminary because McCormick Theological Seminary was one of the biggest slumlords in the community. Yeah, they were training ministers, but they were also profiting from all these houses they owned that [01:22:00] were substandard. They were slums. So the takeover of McCormick was part of the challenge to the city structure. Opening up a free 40 �health clinic was a challenge to the city structure because they did not do that. It’s the city that was supposed to provide that kind of services, free health services to our community. They didn’t. We did. That was a challenge. Free breakfast. That was a challenge to the city structure because we were telling ’em, “Look, you’re allowing students to go to classes in the mornings without good breakfasts so they can fall asleep because they’re not fed properly.” That’s a challenge. And of course, we were part of a movement, national movement, and I think we saw the results in Chicago. The city of Chicago opened up neighborhood clinics afterwards. [01:23:00] There were several neighborhoods that had City of Chicago Free Health Clinics after the Free Health Clinic movement. All the programs now that the cities, many cities have for free lunches and some breakfasts. JJ: This was also part of the Rainbow Coalition that we were modeling our programs after the Black Panther Party? OL: Yeah, because again, all of this movement on free health and free breakfast and all, it was a national movement. It was not a local movement. And it impacted the government. We didn’t overthrow the government, but we forced them to respond. And so we have some of those services now. The Republicans will probably, we want to get rid of ’em if we have a Republican president. But that was established. JJ: [01:24:00] What about, so Mayor Daley didn’t like this, so there was a little repression going on. What are some of the forms? How did that take shape? 41 �OL: The City of Chicago established the GIU, Gang Intelligence Unit, and that was part of what the mayor called the War on Gangs. So he declared war on gangs, and of course, we fell in that category. The GIU was designed to create problems for gangs, to spy on gangs. And so they were doing that with the Young Lords. They created problems. They followed us. They did surveillance of our members 24 hours a day sometimes, the arrests, and the entire organization was under siege because [01:25:00] of the GIU. So the mayor, that was part of the mayor’s effort to quell whatever progressive youth organization was coming up. JJ: What about Reverend Bruce Johnson and Eugenia Johnson? Can you explain what that was about? OL: Well, Reverend Johnson was the minister of Methodist Church on Armitage and Dayton. That’s the one we took over. And Reverend Johnson was not opposed to working with us, and he made it clear in public that he supported us and he would work with us. There was a Hispanic congregation in that church that was primarily a Cuban congregation, and they had a Cuban minister. And I think [01:26:00] that the friction internally in the church probably developed because of Reverend Johnson’s support of our organization. One of our icons was el Che Guevara, and that really clashed with the Cuban members of that Methodist church. And there was a lot of anger, and there was a lot of discontent, of course, a lot of hate towards the Young Lords, but it’s a lot of anger and discontent with Bruce Johnson because he was, in essence, supporting us. And I think that they probably saw us as a communist organization, which we weren’t. 42 �We read all kinds of communist material, but they probably saw us that way. And I think Bruce Johnson was the target of that kind of hate, [01:27:00] those kinds of negative feelings. And I’m not a detective. I know nothing about criminal justice, but I think Bruce Johnson was probably a victim of that. If you look at the evidence, when he was stabbed to death, they say that it was a very violent death. There was a lot of passion involved in it. This is Bruce Johnson. He’s a preacher. Who is going to hate him that much to the point that even the evidence shows that whoever did it was really angry at him. That’s the evidence. So I think that it cost him his life [01:28:00] having supported the organization. JJ: And his wife. OL: His wife. JJ: Was stabbed too. OL: Was stabbed to death. JJ: We’re not talking about once or twice, they’re talking about fourteen and nineteen times. OL: Oh, yeah. No, that’s why it was very, the police say it was a passionate act. They were angry. Whoever did it was really going at it. JJ: And many people got arrested. Weren’t you arrested at one point? OL: Well, yeah. My arrest was because of what we were confronting the police at People’s Park that it was empty lot on Halsted and Armitage that was going to be used to build a private tennis club. And we were saying, who the hell is going to become a member of a tennis club here? We can hardly play softball in the 43 �corner. We took a stand against that and [01:29:00] the lot that was going to be used for that tennis club. We took it over and we called it Peoples Park. JJ: There were tents set up, right? Tents. OL: Yeah, the whole works. It was tents and we camped out, and even Buck, Mr. Fuller came and visited us, and he donated a geodesic dome for the playground. So the people’s actions were also heard all over the nation, but it was part of the urban renewal. JJ: How did you get arrested or something? OL: Well, we know we were at the park and the police began to harass us, and so we retaliated, and of course the police was not going to be, he called in for reinforcements and they came. We had a confrontation. The charges that I had was [01:30:00] resisting arrest, mob action, of course, resisting arrest, aiding to the escape of a prisoner. JJ: What prisoner? OL: Because they already had one of the guys, they had Orlando and I came at the policeman and he had to let go Orlando. But then they got me, and assaulting a police officer, but that was because of that. JJ: So they were resolved later? OL: I think I was given probation. JJ: At that time. OL: After some time, yeah, after a few years, that was the thing was solved. Yeah. JJ: Any final thoughts that you want to, or anything that you want to add regarding refreshing or anything else? 44 �OL: No. JJ: That’s it. OL: That’s it. JJ: All right. Thank -- END OF VIDEO FILE 45 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/d241edacfa84e887b801b1f7d7546f3c.mp4 cef9b53c19f944a818da65c0b41137fe Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Omar López vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 2 Descripción Spanish language Description entry Omar López era el Ministro de Información para los Young Lords. Nació en México y llego a chicago en 1958, estableándose en el vecindario de Humboldt Park donde sigue viviendo. El primero conoció alguien de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park cuando estaban en las calles como una ganga puertorriqueña. López los vio de nuevo cuando los Young Lords se transformaron, oficialmente en el 23 de Septiembre de 1958, de in ganga a un movimiento de los derechos humanos. Esta vez los jóvenes estaban protegiendo a José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez y Fred Hampton (del Black Panther Party) quien estaban hablando juntos en Loop Jr. College donde López estaba peleando por los derechos de los estudiantes y educación bilingüe. López se hizo parte de los Young Lords en 1969. En 1973 el fundo el Mexican Teachers Organization. Señor López continúa trabajando por los derechos de Latinos y emigrantes. En 2006, el corrió por el Green Party como candidato para la Case de Representantes de Illinois, del 4th distrito. El 10 de Marzo del mismo año el reunió una de la más grandes demonstraciones, de gente que luchaban por los derechos de los inmigrantes de clase obrera, en la historia de los Estados Unidos. López continua siendo proactivo en la aria de Humboldt Park, derechos para inmigrantes, la “Latin American Defense Organization (LADO), y los Young Lords. El es el director ejecutivo de CALOR, una clínica para Latinos que han sido afectados por HIV/AIDS u otras enfermedades. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Estudiantes--Derechos Civiles Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Lopez_Omar_2 Title A name given to the resource Omar López video interview and transcript, interview 2 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource López, Omar Description An account of the resource Omar López was Minister of Information for the Young Lords. He was born in Mexico and first came to Chicago in 1958, settling in the Humboldt Park Neighborhood where he has lived ever since. He first met some Young Lords in Lincoln Park when they were hanging out on the streets as a local Puerto Rican street gang, and later when the Young Lords were providing security for Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez and Fred Hampton (of the Black Panther Party) who were speaking together at Loop Jr. College where Omar was a student and fighting for student rights and bilingual education. Mr. López joined the Young Lords in 1969. In 1973, he founded the Mexican Teachers Organization. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Students--Civil rights Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-08-23 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/c85601985276623764c4681434f20edc.pdf 2efb73004b9e1792ce0dd7bcb6102093 PDF Text Text Young Lords In Lincoln Park Interviewee: Omar López Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez Location: Grand Valley State University Special Collections Date: 2/7/2012 Biography and Description English Omar López was Minister of Information for the Young Lords. He was born in Mexico and first came to Chicago in 1958, settling in the Humboldt Park Neighborhood where he has lived ever since. He first met some Young Lords in Lincoln Park when they were hanging out on the streets as a local Puerto Rican street gang. When the Young Lords transformed themselves officially on September 23, 1968 into a human rights movement, he saw them once again. This time those same young men were providing security for José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez and Fred Hampton (of the Black Panther Party) who were speaking together at Loop Jr. College where Omar a student and fighting for student rights and bilingual education. Mr. López joined the Young Lords in 1969. In 1973, he founded the Mexican Teachers Organization.Mr. López continues to work actively on behalf of Latino and immigrant rights. In 2006, he ran as a Green Party candidate for the House of Representatives in Illinois, 4th District. That same year, on March 10, he convened one of the largest mass demonstrations on behalf of working class immigrant rights in U.S. history. �Mr. López continues to be proactive in the Humboldt Park area, with immigrant rights, the Latin American Defense Organization (LADO), and the Young Lords. He is the Executive Director of CALOR, a clinic that especially serves Latinos affected by HIV/AIDS and other diseases. Spanish Omar López era el Ministro de Información para los Young Lords. Nació en México y llego a chicago en 1958, estableándose en el vecindario de Humboldt Park donde sigue viviendo. El primero conoció alguien de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park cuando estaban en las calles como una ganga puertorriqueña. López los vio de nuevo cuando los Young Lords se transformaron, oficialmente en el 23 de Septiembre de 1958, de in ganga a un movimiento de los derechos humanos. Esta vez los jóvenes estaban protegiendo a José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez y Fred Hampton (del Black Panther Party) quien estaban hablando juntos en Loop Jr. College donde López estaba peleando por los derechos de los estudiantes y educación bilingüe. López se hizo parte de los Young Lords en 1969. En 1973 el fundo el Mexican Teachers Organization. Señor López continúa trabajando por los derechos de Latinos y emigrantes. En 2006, el corrió por el Green Party como candidato para la Case de Representantes de Illinois, del 4th distrito. El 10 de Marzo del mismo año el reunió una de la más grandes demonstraciones, de gente que luchaban por los derechos de los inmigrantes de clase obrera, en la historia de los Estados Unidos. López continua siendo proactivo en la aria de Humboldt Park, derechos para inmigrantes, la “Latin American Defense Organization (LADO), y los Young Lords. El es el director ejecutivo de CALOR, una clínica para Latinos que han sido afectados por HIV/AIDS u otras enfermedades. �Transcript JOSE JIMENEZ: If you can begin by telling us when you arrived in Chicago, where you lived at, and where you came from in Mexico. OMAR LOPEZ: Okay. Yeah. Well, I came to Chicago, or I was brought to Chicago at age 13, and from the beginning we came to live in Humboldt Park. I’m talking about 1958. Nineteen-fifty-eight and it wasn’t what it is today or what it has been in the last 30, 40 years. I mean, then the neighborhood wasn’t even beginning the transition yet between white dominant community to then Latino-Puerto Rican community. But that’s where we landed from the beginning. As a teenager, I hung around a lot in Maplewood and Division. There were some of [00:01:00] the young Puerto Ricans and Mexicans, and we used to get together on a hot dog stand that was there. And that’s where I also began to hear, for example, about the different programs like the YMCA’s intervention programs, things like that. And of course, that’s where we used to go from Maplewood and Division, that’s where we used to go out to our little fights in Humboldt Park and other places against the Polish-Italian gangs that were in that particular community. So it was even way back then that I used to have a hillbilly friend. They used to talk to me about the Young Lords too. Kenny Smith was his name, and he used to travel a lot. I mean travel like from Lincoln Park to Humboldt Park, and that’s how we used [00:02:00] to -- that’s when I started hearing about the Young Lords also. He would tell me that -- we used to have a little scrimmages with a group, it was called Chi-West and he’s, “Oh, well, we got to go get the Young Lords we’re 1 �at over there in Armitage, the playground in Armitage.” So that was the first beginning when I started hearing about the Young Lords. So most of my adolescence was in the Humboldt Park community, but already having contact with other communities, Latino communities like Lincoln Park. Interestingly enough, through Kenny Smith was a hillbilly. That’s how I started to be in touch with the Young Lords at the time. JJ: About what year was this? OL: [00:03:00] Oh, I’m talking about beginning between 1961 and 1966, because the other groups were just forming also in the community. We had groups like the Trojans and others that were just beginning in the Humboldt Park community. But then the Young Lords came later. My contact with the Young Lords came later, probably about when Kenny Smith used to come around and talk about it. Maybe it was about 1965, maybe 1966, something like that. That was around the time. JJ: Okay. And you were going to what schools and what schools were you going to? OL: Okay. In grammar school, I went to Yates. Yates Elementary School. And then from there, when I graduated from Yates, then I went to Tuley High School. So I did [00:04:00] all my four years in Tuley. Again, Tuley was primarily Ukrainian, Polish, Italian, and there’s probably about 45 Mexicans and Puerto Ricans altogether. It was just beginning to come into Tuley High School. So again, the life in Tuley High School was also the same. We had to deal with some of those groups that were there, primarily Polish and Italian groups that were in Tuley. But I did four years at Tuley, and then after that I got married. So I didn’t go to 2 �school for a while until I decided that I needed to go to Loop City College to start taking some courses there in Loop College. And that’s what I did [00:05:00] right back in about 1966, 1967, 1968, decided that I needed to go back to school. At Tuley -- at Loop College there was a lot of activity going on already. I was trying to get some of the high school guys that had gone to school with me to go to Loop City College. Some of ’em did, but there was a lot of activity going on. We formed a group at Tuley -- Loop College that was called OLAS, the Organization of Latin American Students, and we called it Latin American because there was a lot of Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, Colombians. So we couldn’t call it either Mexican, Puerto Rican or -- so we went for OLAS, Organization of Latin American Students. And we made a lot of good alliances with the [00:06:00] Black Student Union that was also at Loop College. And that’s when we also, we pushed to have a coalition with Black students at the time that we called it The Third World Coalition. And the Third World Coalition, what we did was we were very much in touch also with the Black Panther Party then. We invited Fred Hampton to come and speak to the students, things like that. So we were hooked into a lot of the activity, political activity was going on, but in OLAS, the emphasis was to go back to the neighborhood. Yeah, you’re studying, but you got to go back to the neighborhood. And it was right around that time also that I came in contact with you, Ralph Rivera, Cha-Cha, that you were reorganizing [00:07:00] the Young Lords. And I remember the meeting that we talked a little bit about the reorganization. The first time that I heard you talk about it was at the Urban Training Center. The Presbyterian Church used to have what they 3 �called a, UTC, the Urban Training Center. It was training almost like community organizers, and it was on Ashland and Washington, the Congregational Church, First Congregational Church there. And that’s when we met and started talking about the restructuring. You talked to me about the restructuring. You talked to me about the button with Tengo Puerto Rico En Mi Corazón, all of that. So that was sort of like the first time that we began to talk about the restructuring of the Young Lords. So that was back in 1960-had to be 1968. That’s a long time ago, but I think it was 1968, [00:08:00] maybe around April or so of 1968. So that’s where everything was beginning to brew in terms of the organization. JJ: And then what happened? When did you come to the neighborhood, to the church and then after -- OL: Again, I had had a lot of activity going on with the youth groups on Division Street, because remember in 1966, there was the Puerto Rican riots. And so all of the guys that used to hang around Division and Maplewood were involved in the three days of riots and Division. So there was a lot of big communication within groups, not just between the guys on Division and Maplewood, but Division and Hoyne and around Damon, [00:09:00] the people that were coming from Harrison and Western. JJ: What was the Division Street Riot? What was that about? OL: The Division Street Riot was in June of 1966, and I think that was the culmination of all the repression that the police was carrying on against, especially young people. I mean, it was the youth that were really active in the neighborhood, and they were forming their groups, they were getting involved in different activities, 4 �going to dances at the YMCA. So there was a lot of activity with the youth groups, but of course, there was a lot of street activity too. And the police was always coming down on the young people. Always, always, always. And I think this was sort of like what broke the camel’s back? The straw that broke the camel’s back was when the police [00:10:00] shot this young guy on Division, around Division and Hoyne. It was right after the Puerto Rican, the first Puerto Rican parade in the city. So it was a Sunday, I think it was Sunday, June, I want to say Sunday, June 16th of 1966. And that incident started the young people to really come out on the police. What happened after that people got really angry at these injustices, really. And people started coming out on the street. And the police that were involved in the shooting of this guy, of course, they called in for reinforcements. So the more police came into the area and more people came out from the houses, and there was a lot of confrontation going [00:11:00] on between the police, but it was focused on that Damon/Division area. And what happened was the police began to try to arrest people, and people were beginning to confront the police at the time. And what happened was that there was, on that block between Hoyne and Damon on Division, there used to be a theater. It was called the San Juan Theater. And on top of the door, on the side of the theater, there was a lot of offices. And one of those offices, there was this guy that had a radio program every Sunday. They used to -- he used to call himself [el Boricua Argentino?]. He was from Argentina, but since the market was Puerto Rican, he was catering to the Puerto Rican community. So he had a Sunday program, and he used to broadcast from that office up by the San Juan 5 �Theater. [00:12:00] And what he did was they looked out the window, and when he looked out the window, he saw what was going on between police and the community people, and he started -- was on the air. So he was almost like narrating what he was seeing. And I think that’s what got a lot more people to come out. People used to listen to his program every Sunday. So when he started talking about the injustices that he was seeing from the second floor, he had a bird’s eye view of the activity. A lot more people started coming up, and a lot of the young people were really the ones that were fueling all this activity to the point where in front of the San Juan Theater, I think there was one or two squad cars that were burned. But then that was the Sunday, and then it began to spread, so that in those three days of rioting, it went from Damon and Division all the [00:13:00] way to California and Division. That was a lot. That was a lot like 19 to 26, about a mile stretch. But of course, you see it now and you have the hospital, you have other institutions there. But before that was all apartments all along Division Street, there was all people coming out. And so that kept it going for three days and three nights. That was a key event in the Puerto Rican community, because what that did was it forced Mayor Daley to acknowledge the Puerto Rican community. One of the things that he had to do was open up an Urban Progress Center as a response. And the first director of the Urban Progress Center was Dr. Samuel Betances. But also, they had to -- one of the demands that came from the Puerto Rican community [00:14:00] was we want Hispanic policemen in the force. There was hardly any, maybe one or two, and they couldn’t make it because of the height. So one of the demands that this 6 �committee that was formed as a result of the riots, one of the demands was to lower the height. And Mayor Daley had to do that -- he had to do it for the entire force. So some people says, now you get a lot of midgets in the force because they lowered the height, but that’s how they got a lot of Latino policemen. They started to come in that way. But it was key because I think that was actually the only time in the history of the Latino community in Chicago that the power structure was confronted and challenged the way that the Puerto Rican community did that. I haven’t seen that happen [00:15:00] ever again in the Latino community. And as a result, I think the Puerto Rican community began to make some advancements in politics, in education. We were getting elected officials, things like that. But that three days of rioting, I think that was key in what happened later in the Puerto Rican community. JJ: And what was going on with you from 1966 to when you get involved with these students and young folks? OL: Well, what happened was after the riots, there was a need to organize. I was a student, part-time, but I was still very in touch with the guys in the street. And also my older brother, Obed was in the area, and he was a good organizer. So we decided that we needed to organize and start providing services to the families [00:16:00] in the community. Because that was part of it, the fact that families in the community were not getting the services they needed. Young people were not getting the services they needed. So there was a vacuum in terms of that. So I got involved with my brother, and because I had a pretty nice base with the young guys, so we started organizing. We organized the Latin 7 �American Defense Organization, LADO. Basically what that was doing was helping a lot of the young families that were arriving from Puerto Rico for the first time in Chicago, and they needed to get established and to get established, they had to go to Public Aid. And Public Aid was always giving them a hard time denying them services, denying them assistance, when in fact, they needed to have that, and they were eligible to get [00:17:00] it, but the welfare department was always giving them a hard time. So that was one of the organizing points, the welfare assistance, because that affected the entire family. So that was it. And as a result, LADO formed what they call the Welfare Union. And the Welfare Union had then contact with the African-American community, the white Appalachian community that were in the same situation. They formed the Welfare Coalition also, but that was it. What happened here was that although these young families had, the sons and daughters were the ones that were out in the streets also. So the young people at the time also saw LADO as a model for organizing. [00:18:00] And so when they were thinking of organizing, they used to look at that as a model. And so that was how I started to do a lot of community work too, and community organizing until I started to go to Loop College. Then we started to do some student organizing also. JJ: And what is the connections to LADO and the Young Lords? OL: Okay, once the Young Lords began to function as a community organization, then there was also the communication between LADO and the Young Lords. And there was a natural connection because again, in this case, Lincoln Park was having some of the very same problems that Humboldt Park, West Town, 8 �Wicker Park were having with the Puerto Rican families. [00:19:00] So there was a natural connection. So for example, when LADO would have a demonstration at the welfare offices, for example, the Young Lords participated as security for all these mothers, young mothers, and with their children, they used to come and march. And also the Black Panthers through the Young Lords, then the Black Panthers would also participate in these kinds of demonstrations. So that’s what I’m saying it was sort of like a natural connection. And that’s when the communication between the Latin American Defense Organization, LADO, and the Young Lords began to happen also. And since I had been a lot more active with LADO, which was in the Humboldt Park area, and when the connection with the Young Lords was made, then I also began to get involved in the actions of the Young Lords, [00:20:00] and that’s how I began to get a lot more involved in the organization. JJ: There was a trip to Denver that I believe, can you explain that? OL: There was a lot of activity going on, a lot of political activity going on at the time. And in the southwest of the United States, the activity was centered around the Chicano movement. So there was a lot of activity going on in the southwest from Denver, New Mexico, California, all those places had a lot of actions going on. And again, the organizing tool over there was Chicanismo was a cultural nationalist movement out there. In 1968, the Crusade for Justice, which is headed by Rodolfo “Corky” Gonzales hosted, or they organized [00:21:00] the Chicano Youth Conference, national Chicano Youth Conference. And we were invited. Chicago was invited, and we had a lot of meetings. This was very 9 �interesting, the Young Lords were in, because the Young Lords by this time were already developing a political consciousness. So it was no problem for the Young Lords to say we’re going to go, but we were working with other youth groups like 18th Street. We were working with the Latin Counts, Ambrose, and the Rampants, and we wanted them to get involved and also go on the trip to Denver, but on the north side, and sort of like the youth base for LADO was the Latin Kings and they didn’t see eye to eye. But we began to have meetings between [00:22:00] the groups and came to a point where they decided, “Yeah, okay, we’re going to make peace and we’re going to travel to Denver.” So we had two buses full of people that went to Denver. And in them, it was interesting because we had the Young Lords, the Kings, Counts, Ambrose. It was different groups of young people that were out there that were really impacted by the conference. I think the Young Lords were very much impacted. As a matter of fact, this is where we made the contact with Hayward, California, it was a group of young people from Hayward who decided they wanted to found the Young Lords in Hayward. So that was back in 1968. So the idea of expanding the concept of the youth organization, like the Young Lords in Denver started to happen because [00:23:00] the kids from Hayward, they said, “I want to be Young Lords.” So they started to do that. But I think that trip to Denver had a big impact on the Chicago youth. When we came back, I know that the Latin Kings and the Young Lords began to have a lot of good communication about organizing, and the Kings began to call themselves the Latin King organization, 10 �also just like the Young Lords organization. But I think that Denver had a lot of impact in 1968, and then went back in 1969 again. So that was good. JJ: Now you came back and what were some of the activities that were going on? What was your role in the Young Lords, your title? OL: Well, then what happened after Denver, we already had been in touch and talking about the need to organize in Lincoln Park with the [00:24:00] Young Lords. And at that point, it was in early 1968, it was even before we went to Denver. We talked about the fact that you needed someone to handle all of the communications for the Young Lords, and you asked me to be the Minister of Information for the Young Lords. And after I had checked with again, because I was active with LADO, checked with him, and we also said, that’s a natural connection because we’re about the same thing, and there’s a need with the Young Lords. So I went and became the Ministry of Information for the Young Lords. So then we came back from Denver. There was a lot of activity in Chicago. You remember when Manuel Ramos was shot and killed? That was when we had the march on [00:25:00] the police station as a result of the killing of Manuel. That’s when we took over McCormick Theological Seminary and then the church. So 1968 was really a very intense year for the Young Lords of growth, you see, because, and it was growing very fast. And I think that one of the things that happened was that through your leadership, the fact that you were putting it together to be able to have the impact that the Young Lords needed to have with youth, all the young people, I think that was important because otherwise, the Young Lords, with incidents like the Manuel Ramos killing, it 11 �would’ve fallen apart, but it didn’t. I think that with the kind [00:26:00] of organizing and all of the talking that you were doing with the rest of the members, I think that with the killing of Manuel Ramos rather than for the group to fall apart, I think that’s, in my opinion, that’s what brought ’em together. And I think that’s what made a lot of the people in the members of the Young Lords that were not still convinced that it had to be a political organization. I think that incident made them realize that if the Young Lords was to survive and the young people in the Young Lords were to survive, they had to become a political organization. And I think that’s when we got a lot of the people that were rejecting the idea that you always put out. I think that made ’em change. And I think that from there on the activities, so the Young Lords really began to take off. JJ: So you’re saying that [00:27:00] there was some people that were not in favor of making the transition into the Young Lords. What were some of the reasons that that -- OL: I remember that you had the idea -- you went around talking to each of the members, but there were people that were not convinced that the Young Lords were to make that transition. I think they wanted to keep it as it was -- just a group of friends, maybe social, a social type of organization, and they didn’t really want to bother getting political. And there was a good -- I think there was a good strong group that were against the transition. I think from conversations later with some of them, people like Sal, and [00:28:00] he’s open about that, and he didn’t want to change. But I think he also accepts the fact that once the incident of Manuel happened, that also made him think about it. And then he 12 �accepted the idea of making the transition. And I think there were other people that followed him were in the same position. But I think that that incident really made everybody change. JJ: And what was that incident? OL: When Manuel Ramos was shot? JJ: What I mean, what took place? Can you explain what you recall? OL: Well, I wasn’t there. I only got the phone call late at night that there was a party going on with the Young Lords. Someone that lived next door happened to be [00:29:00] an off duty policeman, and he complained that there was too much noise. But it’s interesting because if it’s too much noise, you call the police on you, and you have people quiet it down. But he was taking everything into his own hands. I mean, he came out and he was armed. And when people like Manuel and Ralph and others came out on the porch to find out what was going on with this guy that was out in front of the apartment, he shot him. He was armed. And you can tell it was without provocation because the guys were up on the porch, I mean, they weren’t even down there confronting the guy. So it was obviously that there had to be some racism involved in this. [00:30:00] Because it was obvious that there was a Puerto Rican household, they were having a party, the music was loud, and this guy was -- by the name of James Lamb, off duty policeman -- came out to take action on his own without calling the police. So I think that there was a lot of racism involved in that. And the fact that he was an off duty policeman, I think he felt that he could do that without having to then be responsible and accountable for his actions. And in fact, he never got 13 �convicted for that crime. But that’s what happened that night. And I think, again, once we all got the call and we knew what was going on, I think that that made us really think about it. And it was either fold up or get stronger. And I think that the [00:31:00] majority of the Young Lords decided that it was time to organize. JJ: And how was that shown, for example, at the funeral and other? OL: Well, then again, and it’s unfortunate, but the death of Manuel really brought people together. And you could see it at the wake, at the services at St. Teresa’s. All of the Young Lords came out dressed in black, the purple beret, and very disciplined. And I think that that was the first time that people publicly saw that kind of discipline coming out of a youth group in the Latino community. It was very disciplined. It wasn’t disorganized. It was very -- I guess you can say it was very respectful of what was going on, but also it was very powerful. It was [00:32:00] very powerful. The images were very powerful. And I think that that was a sign of how fast the group began to mature. So after that, then all of the actions of the Young Lords were really focused. They had an objective, and it was very organized from there on, in the sense that there were collective actions that were being taken after that. For example, we called the demonstration on the police station on Chicago Avenue. JJ: Describe that. OL: And that was also as a result of the killing of Manuel. And we went to protest the fact that nothing was going on in terms of the case. And we had [00:33:00] well over a thousand people just marching. And it was overnight, you call people out, and it was overnight they came out and we walked all the way from Lincoln Park 14 �all the way to the police station, that at the time was between -- on Chicago Avenue between LaSalle and Clark. The police station, it’s gone now there, it’s another building there, but that’s where the police station was. And we did that. We had a massive demonstration. And the interesting thing here is that right behind the march, because we went through Cabrini Green, right behind the march, we had the Stones, I think it was the [Cobra?] Stones right behind -JJ: What was the Cabrini Green? OL: Cabrini Green was one of the biggest housing complexes, public housing complexes in Chicago. And [00:34:00] it was home to a lot of the gangs, AfricanAmerican gangs. The Stones were there, and I’m sure the Disciples were there in another section, but we walked right through that project because we had had, the Young Lords already had some communications with youth groups in the projects. So we went through, but then I guess not all, not everybody knew that we were friends. So right behind us were the Stones. So when we got to the demonstration in front of the police station, we found ourselves boxed in. We were in front of the police station on Chicago, but on the east side around Clark, you had this whole line of policemen in riot gear. I mean, just blocking that whole avenue. And then on the LaSalle side, you had all the Stones over here. So we [00:35:00] were blocked in. And again, I think this is where, again, the maturity of the Young Lords’s leadership showed up because people like yourself, Cha-cha, Sal, and others, you had to come out and negotiate, and you had to explain to the Stones, not to the police, they knew, but the reason why we were there and what had happened to one of our members so that they understood why we were 15 �there. So after that, they understood. So that confrontation with them ended. We just had the police on the other side to deal with. But the relationship with the Stones developed as a result of that demonstration. And days later, [00:36:00] when we decided that McCormick Theological Seminary as an institution that was part of the group of institutions that was pushing urban renewal in Lincoln Park, that it had to be taken over. The Stones participated also with the Young Lords and the Poor People’s Coalition that decided to take over McCormick Theological Seminary. So again, talking about the Young Lords developing maturity, I think that was another sign. First, after the Killing, the wake where you begin to, for the first time, you see a very well organized, disciplined group come out public. And then the negotiations on the spot when we had that demonstration in front of the police station, and then the takeover of McCormick Theological Seminary all came. So like [00:37:00] in a string of activities. JJ: What do you call what you recall about the takeover? Describe that. OL: Well, the Young Lords already at that point were identifying urban renewal as the enemy. Urban renewal -- we already had identified urban renewal as the program that was pushing people out of the neighborhood with the help of real estate agencies like Bissell Realty, which was on Bissell and Armitage. And it was run by Fat Larry, we used to call Fat Larry. DePaul University, McCormick Geological Seminary, Grand Hospital, Augustana Hospital, Aetna Bank. I mean, these were the institutions that, in that community that were the ones that were pushing urban renewal. [00:38:00] And so the Young Lords saw that as the 16 �enemies. And out of all of those enemies, we saw that McCormick Theological Seminary not only was one of the institutions, but they were a religious organization, and they were probably one of the biggest slumlords in Lincoln Park. And so other organizations like the, is it Concerned Citizens of Lincoln Park? They already had their eye on them too, for the same reason. So we came together also with the Concerned Citizens to organize the Poor People’s Coalition and take over McCormick Theological Seminary. But McCormick was one of the biggest slumlords in Lincoln Park. And so as a result of the takeover, we presented also a series of demands. One of them was a housing project. [00:39:00] Another one was Legal Defense, Legal Defense office. Another one was a cultural center that we wanted. So out of those demands, we were able to get some seed money to get an architect to do the designs for a whole complex. If I recall, well, it was 72 units that we were proposing. And Howard Alan was the architect, young architect at the time that consulted with community as to the design of the apartments and talked to ladies and mothers about how they envision an apartment for themselves. And he put it together. So now remember the organization that was making [00:40:00] the decisions on urban renewal, what houses were torn down and what projects went through was the, let me see if I remember. The Lincoln Park Urban Conservation -JJ: Community Conservation Council. OL: Yeah, that one. JJ: Lincoln Park Community Conservation Council. 17 �OL: Lincoln Park Community Conservation Council. They used to be sort of like the agent of the urban renewal, and they used to pass on projects. And so they were the ones that were making decisions as to what areas of the community were coming down and what families were being pushed out, really. So the Young Lords also knew that they identified them as the ones making decisions. And you remember one of the big actions was to take over one of their buildings, one of their meetings too, [00:41:00] and not allow them to take any more decisions, make any more decisions for the community. And again, that was another one of the actions of the Young Lords that had a clear purpose and where the young people participated. You always say that we had to rearrange furniture for them. Yeah, I mean, it was a violent intervention because I mean, they were being violent by pushing people out already. So it took another violent action to stop them from making decisions. So that was another action of the Young Lords. So this was the group that we had to go back to also with designs of the housing project, after McCormick Theological Seminary agreed to give us some seed money. I mean, remember the takeover took a week. It was a week that we were in McCormick Theological Seminary until they negotiated. You remember [00:42:00] we were there and they wouldn’t negotiate. In fact, at one point, the president, McKay, threatened to bring in the police and get us all out. And we came back and said, “Okay, well then if you bring the police, then we’re going to move into the library.” And from what I gather, the library has, well, it used to have this collection of rare religious books. I mean, really worth a lot. And McCormick wasn’t ready to lose that because they knew that we were serious. 18 �So then they negotiated. They sat down to negotiate with our committee, and that came out with the seed money for the housing project and money to establish an office for legal assistance to our community, which later became the People’s Law Office, which is still in existence today. [00:43:00] But that came directly from the takeover of McCormick Theological Seminary. The cultural Center never materialized, but that was again, another one of the actions of the Young Lords that -JJ: Why didn’t the police come right in and take them and take people out of McCormick Seminary? OL: Well, I think it was two things. One was because it wasn’t just a little group of people taking over. The coalition that took over McCormick Geological Seminary was headed by the Young Lords. Yeah, but you had a lot of other people. LADO was part of it. The Lincoln Park, the citizens, Concerned Citizens of Lincoln Park were part of it. There were a whole group of community organizations. It wasn’t just one little organization. It was difficult for the police to come in on something like that. The other one was McCormick [00:44:00] would be the one to call them in. And when they threatened to call him in, that’s when we came back also with the threat. And so they wouldn’t come in. JJ: You mentioned LADO was part of it. What role did LADO play? OL: Well, LADO -- it’s interesting because at the same time that the takeover was going on, the Presbyterian church was having its national convention in San Antonio. And so Obed, who was the head of the Latin American Defense Organization, LADO, was sent, we sent him to San Antonio to present the 19 �demands over there in San Antonio. So that was going on. So it was -- the engagement wasn’t just the confrontational engagement in Chicago, but we had someone also participating in their own annual Presbyterian convention. [00:45:00] So they couldn’t get away from not facing what was going on in Chicago because we took it to their own convention. In that sense, LADO was very key in making sure that the negotiations in Chicago happened. JJ: What was taking place inside for a whole week? I mean, what did people do for a whole week inside a seminary that had been taken over? OL: Well, I mean, there were different things. The activities, like I remember people getting together and discussing things because in those days, the kinds of teachings were very in vogue. But the other thing that you have to remember is that a group that participated and was very active in the takeover and was all very active in the organizing of activities inside the McCormick was the seminarians themselves, the students. [00:46:00] The students. And one of the leaders was Tom Logan, who internally also organized students to support us. So they were inside also with us. And they were also very instrumental in developing little groups for discussions. And community groups were -community people were coming in to help. They would get involved. So the whole takeover was not just one action, but what went on, the kind of education educational process that went inside was also very important because people understood why they were there. Of course it was being discussed as we were there. 20 �JJ: And then after that, there was another takeover of the church. Can you explain what was going on with that? OL: Yeah. See, again, [00:47:00] so many things were going on at the same time. JJ: There’s a couple of churches that were taken over. OL: Well, the one church that we put our eyes on was the Dayton Avenue Methodist Church. Again, remember, because the young people in the community needed a place to meet, a place to develop activities. And the Hispanic pastor in the Methodist church was approached so that we could use the basement. Just either to have a daycare or have the guys come in and play softball, I mean, basketball things to keep the youth active. But these people, they used to come in on Sundays only and then close the church for the rest of the week. And what we were saying to them is, “Open it up. Let us use the space.” And he refused. [00:48:00] He refused. JJ: This was, who was that? OL: Sergio Herrera was the minister. Herrera was Cuban, a Cuban American, but at the same time, they had the white congregation and the minister for the white congregation was Bruce Johnson, who was a lot more receptive to us, to the Young Lords and using the building. So when Pastor Herrera rejected our request, we decided that we needed to take over that building too. And we remember we we’re already coming out of the experience of McCormick. And so that’s what happened. One of the Young Lords, Louis Chavez, was given the assignment to sneak in the church, stay in the church, wait till they close, [00:49:00] and after they closed, he opened up the doors for us. That’s what 21 �happened. Once they were gone, Louis was inside. Louis opened the doors. We took over the church and we took over the church because we needed to establish programs also. To begin with, when we approached them, we were talking about daycare center. We talked to ’em about basketball in the basement for the young people. So when we took over the church, we went about the business of establishing programs for the community. One of the very first things we talked about was the daycare center so that mothers could go to work and leave the kids in the daycare center. There was a lot of mothers like that, but we didn’t have the money, the funds to develop the daycare center to do the build out. So you decided that we needed lumber, and there was a lot of construction going on in Lincoln Park because [00:50:00] it was urban renewal. So you picked a spot that had lumber, and you went over there with the truck, you got the lumber, and you brought lumber, right, to the church. JJ: I’m glad we already did the time for that. OL: Yeah. JJ: That was a different case, a lumber case. OL: The lumber case was one, but we needed resources, so we needed to get the resources. JJ: Why was the lumber case since they came out? I mean, what was the reasoning? Just to get lumber? What was the reasoning? OL: No, no, because we needed lumber to do the buildup for rooms in the basement so we could have the daycare center. We didn’t have the resources to go buy it. So then you just decided to go liberate it. And the lumber was brought in and we 22 �did the build outs. There’s got to be some pictures of the nice little rooms that were painted with nice [00:51:00] figures, children’s figures. But that’s what happened. I mean, the lumber case was not because you were just stealing lumber. It was the liberation of some material that some constructor or some developer had in the neighborhood, and we brought it in to make use of it. JJ: So it was called a liberation? OL: It was the liberation of lumber. (laughs) JJ: Okay. Was there any building code violations at that time? OL: Well, when we started to do the build out, then of course the city, the city has it’s code, but it’s crazy. When they came back, they told us we couldn’t have the daycare center because the floor was too low, because then you had to come down to the basement. The floor is too low, and then at the same time, they’re saying the ceiling’s too high. So which is it? It’s [00:52:00] either the floor is too low, or the ceiling’s too high. But they said, no floor’s too low. The ceiling’s too high. It’s a violation. So they were giving us this type of violations and obstacles so as not to open the daycare center, but we said, “No, we’re going to open up a daycare center anyway,” because we were already on a confrontation course with the city on something like that. But that was one of the reasons why we took over the church, to establish programs. Also in the basement, that’s where we started the Breakfast for Children. So in the mornings, the kids would stop by on their way to school, they would fly right into the basement. We had long tables. We used to cook breakfast with them, and they eat breakfast and go to school. So that was our Breakfast for Children. That church also served [00:53:00] as 23 �our health clinic. We established our health clinic, the free health clinic, the Ramon Emeterio Betances Health Clinic in that church. And we were able to get volunteer doctors from Northwestern University. As a matter of fact, our Minister of Health was a medical student, a Chicano medical student at Northwestern Medical School. [Alberto Chavira?] was his name, is his name. And he helped us get the clinic opened up and manned with people from Northwestern Medical School. So we did that. And I think that we tried to also put a dentist services there. We got the chair and everything. But that church, that used to be an empty [00:54:00] space throughout the week, we filled it up with programs and people were coming in. And that’s what we had also our education for cadres. And see, that’s one of the characteristics of the Young Lords, whereas it was all street people, but you were also very, very wise in getting people that came in to join the organization and to develop the programs. And in this case, like an education program for the cadres that was our Minister of Education was Tony Baez, Puerto Rican from Caguas, from the Barrio Borinquén in Caguas. He came in and he developed all the modules for [00:55:00] education, for the cadres, the history of Puerto Rico, a little bit of readings of Mao, things like that. But he’s the one that came in and put that together. So the church was also the place where the young kids would have to come in, they had to read books, and they had to participate in some kind of classes. And you remember a lot of these kids, 16, 17 years old, they began to really become knowledgeable on the history of Puerto Rico and the colonial relationship between the Puerto Rico and the United States. And they could go anywhere. They could go to any high school. 24 �Matter of fact, one of them, you remember Mousey, I remember very well. He must’ve been about 17 years old, and he was part of the health committee, but he knew why we were doing a free health clinic and why healthcare was a right [00:56:00] because he went through the classes. And he would go to Northwestern University to the medical students and talk to them. And he was 17 years old and from the street. So that was going on this kind of education. And we had people that put all these things together for the organization. And I think that’s the unique thing about the Young Lords in Chicago, that from a street group we’re able to develop conscientious, well-informed cadres that we had them in the organization, they could go anywhere and talk about it anywhere. We didn’t have a group of people that would be writing position papers on everything. During that time, because the student movement in the United States was so big, all [00:57:00] these radical students were always coming out with position papers. A position paper on this, a position paper on that. I mean, position papers were coming out of their ears. The Young Lords, we didn’t do that. But we did develop a good philosophy in the organization. We knew which way we were moving. We didn’t have to put it out in a little booklet, but our organization knew which way it was moving. And I think part of the criticism that we got from other leftist groups was that we didn’t come out with position papers. The position paper on women, the position paper on housing position, paper on this, we already knew. And we practiced it rather than intellectualize it. And I think that that was the unique part of the Young Lords in Chicago, that [00:58:00] it was action oriented, but it was action already based on knowledge on a certain 25 �ideology and a certain analysis of why we took over McCormick, why we took over the church, why we confronted the police. I mean, it wasn’t just out of the clear blue sky. It was out of an understanding of the relationship between the organization and the power structure. JJ: Well, one of the things that people usually say about gangs is they don’t respect women. So were there any women involved with the Young Lords? OL: Yeah, and I think, and also they came, again, the uniqueness of the Young Lords in Chicago was that it was an organic organization. It wasn’t a put together organization. And it was an organization that grew in the neighborhood. So the same way that you had male members, you had female [00:59:00] members in the organization. So when it becomes a political organization, you also have the women aspect of the organization. And again, we couldn’t follow a white model of women participation, which was going on like an SDS, Students for Democratic Society. And that -- we couldn’t follow that model because the female members of the Young Lords were not -- they were Puerto Rican, they were Latinos. So a different model had to develop. But I think that good example of how that female participation developed is in the group that developed was called MAO, Mothers And Others. And Mothers and Others was really a reflection of the female participant in the Young Lords. It wasn’t a young, single students that were going to college. [01:00:00] There was young mothers that were part of the Young Lords before, and they stayed in the organization. They participated and they helped and they supported, but they also formed their group, MAO, Mothers And Others. And they travel. The leadership like Angie, 26 �she traveled to China -- no, no, to Canada for this international women’s conference. And they were active, but they were active in their own terms and under a very special model for women participation, which is unique in the organization. JJ: Do you remember any roles, I guess I’m thinking about the Black Party, but any other roles that they played within the organization? [01:00:40] OL: Well, they were very supportive in all of the programs. [01:01:00] The clinic, for example, they were very active in the clinic in taking care of patients. They were trained too. I mean, people would come and train them on doing certain things. So they would come in on the days that the clinic was open and they would participate in that. And the Breakfast with children to the extent that they could, because they also had children. They were active in that. So any of the programs that we had, the presence of the women in the organization was there. Also true, the leadership of the organization was all male, but there was a lot of, well, Angie, but I’m talking about chairman, minister of Defense, minister information. These are all males. But the participation, especially through Angie, [01:02:00] was always there. And it wasn’t like in many other groups, it wasn’t a inferior to the rest of the leadership. It’s just that they were being active in a different manner. JJ: Okay. What about what was going on? How did the city respond to the young girls? OL: Huh? That’s right. I mean, I think it was a shock to the city also to the powers in City Hall to see an organization like the Young Lords become political. I mean, 27 �they had their hands full with the Black Panthers and then comes the Young Lords. And not only that, but then the Young Lords start going around talking to other [01:03:00] gangs about becoming an organization, not just with the Latin Kings, but with the Latin Eagles. I remember we traveled even to South Chicago to talk to the Saints, Harrison, Jens. I mean, we talked to every gang that would listen to us about turning into a political organization. And we already had a reason why an organization like the Young Lords would become a political organization. So that’s what we shared with them. So all of this was not ignored by the police, and I think that they really saw the Young Lords as a real big threat. Big threat to the way they dealt with youth in our community, because then they weren’t going to be dealing with little gangs. They were going to be dealing with organizations. And I think that [01:04:00] they made the decision. When Daley declared war on gangs, mayor Daley, the father, decided that it was going to conduct a war on gangs, but it was really a repression of a political movement among youth street youth. And that’s the way that the city decided to deal with it by repressing it. And in the case of the Young Lords, it was not only through arresting most of the leadership of the Young Lords, you yourself at one point had 39 cases in court. And that was one of the way of dismantling an organization by making sure that whatever funds we had, we had to use bail money, whatever time we had to deal with programs we had to spend in [01:05:00] court. So that was a way of dismantling the organization that weren’t gangs. And they were always after us. I mean, when at the church we had 24 hour a day surveillance. I mean, there was a squad car parked outside the 28 �church for 24 hours a day. And sometimes when we used to walk out at church, maybe at one, two o’clock in the morning, because maybe we were working on the newspaper or working on some, developing some leaflets, we woke out at one, two o’clock in the morning and they would stop and dead of winter, they would stop us and make us put our hands on the hood of the car. When the car, I mean, it was like the below zero. It’s cold. It is cold. I would just put my hand just above the, so, but they would come in and say, no, boom, put him on the hood. So it was that [01:06:00] kind of harassment. It was a constant harassment. It was a constant repression of our group. And as a result, then they were also dealing with the groups that were active with us. They were doing the same thing to them. JJ: Okay, what do you think we should, we’re kind of finalizing it. What do you think? Or do you remember anything about the campaign? We can go to the campaign. When we were underground, what were you doing when the rest of the group was underground? OL: Okay, JJ: Why did the group go underground? OL: Right? When the police, the FBI, the GIU, the gang intelligence units and all those people were successful [01:07:00] in dismantling the organization, then there was a decision that, well, you went on underground, you left, and while you were traveling around the nation, that was your contact, whether if you were in California, I knew that you were there and who you were with. If you were in Boston, I knew what you were doing there. So during that time also, all the 29 �organizations that had been active above ground were rethinking, and I’m talking about everywhere, not just in the United States, but even in Mexico. Organizations like ours were rethinking tactics because whereas we were an open above ground organization and everything that we did was [01:08:00] public and an open, we saw that that was not possible anymore. So one of the things that was decided was those that were still part of the organization, were going to go on the ground and continue developing, studying, working, but developing or at least maintaining the group alive, but not out in the open. So that’s what happened at the time, I stayed in Chicago also, and I was one of the Chicago contacts for that. During that time, what I decided to do was also go back to school, and I became a teacher during that time that the rest of the members were underground. But I was the one that, one of the people that kept also in contact with the school, with a group [01:09:00] in Wisconsin until came time for the group to surface again. And that’s when you decided to turn yourself in and do whatever time you needed to do and then continue again above ground. With the shift here with the Young Lords at the time was going into electoral politics, not as, because we thought that was the solution, but because that gave us, again, a platform to speak from about urban renewal, again, about other things. So it wasn’t like, okay, we’re going to run Cha-Cha for Alderman because he’s going to win. But it was, we’re going to run Cha-Cha for Alderman because that’s going to allow us, again, to talk about the issues like urban renewal. As a matter of fact, when you run for Alderman, the opposition, Chris Cohen then later [01:10:00] became the secretary for Urban Housing and Urban Development. So 30 �I mean, we weren’t too far from the targets that we’ve always had in mind, but that gave us, again, another form of educating communities. And we felt that that was the way to do it. But I think that’s sort of like the next stage that the Young Lords went into, and it was already a transformed group. But during the sixties and early seventies, the uniqueness of the Young Lords in Chicago, the national headquarters in Chicago, we’re unique in the sense that the organization inspire and it gave the youth a model to follow. So I think that the [01:11:00] Young Lords really impacted a whole generation of Latino youth that later on they became active in their own terms. And some of ’em went into health, some went into education, some went into politics, but they went in already with the kind of direction that the Young Lords had established. I think that if the Young Lords had not been there, probably the Latino Puerto Rican community would have developed, but it would have developed in a different direction than it did because I think the Young Lords established the mood and established the direction for the Puerto Rican community to move. And I think that was part of the legacy that the young horse left [01:12:00] for our community. And the other one is a lesson to people that the youth can come together, the youth can organize, because we didn’t have any adult leadership in the Young Lords. But as young people, you can come together, analyze problems, and have an impact on your community. And I think that’s kind of difficult to do that today because of all the factors that are at play in our communities. But we still have the Young Lords as a model to follow. It’s a question of, again, doing what you did back in 1967, ‘68 of going person to person to person and explaining what needs to 31 �happen with the youth, what needs to happen with a structure, like a gang structure. [01:13:00] But it is going to take not just one cha-cha, it’s going to take several cha-cha to do that and revive JJ: Doing OL: The model, what you did, JJ: Administer of information, doing what everybody was doing. That’s what we did. It did take a lot more people. The one thing we didn’t haven’t covered as part of the repression was how was Reverend Bruce Johnson was killed? Can you explain what happened then and what was the impact it had on you and some of the other members group? OL: Yeah. Well, that was one of the things. This was in 2008, 2009, nine 2000 JJ: September. OL: I’m already JJ: Actually, I’m sorry, October of OL: 69. Of 69. October nine, October of 69, that’s when Reverend Bruce Johnson was assassinated. [01:14:00] Him and his wife JJ: Assassinated. What do you mean? OL: Well, assassinated. He was killed. I think he was assassinated because I think he was the, remember I mentioned that he was the one that was very receptive to us in letters, come and come into the church and make use of the space in the church. And when he did that, the Young Lords acquired a base and we rooted ourselves in the community that way. I think that meant a lot to the power structures because we were sort of becoming, let me use the word 32 �institutionalized in the community. We weren’t just a little group running around. It was already a group that had a place. They had programs coming out of there. And I think that there was a lot of opposition to us, not just from the police department. I [01:15:00] think there were some right wing community groups that were against us that didn’t like the things that we were doing. We love America Committee that was right next door to us, and they would go through a lot of garbage and take out little papers and then make a case out of a little diagram that we would throw away groups like that. I think that the fact that we were a leftist organization in terms of ideology, right wing Latino groups in Chicago, didn’t like us either. And the organized right wing at the time in the Latinos, it was not Puerto Rican, it was not Mexican. [01:16:00] It was mostly Cuban. So I think that group didn’t like us either, but they didn’t strike against us. All these groups didn’t come and confront us because it would’ve been different. It would’ve been difficult for them to do that. But I that instead, they took it upon Reverend Johnson and punished him for facilitating what we had. And I think that he was killed because of his involvement with the Young Lords, him and his wife. I mean, were stabbed to death, the way that they were stabbed to death wasn’t like a robbery. I mean, it was a very intense, very, there was a lot of anger in the kind [01:17:00] of wounds that they found in them. So it wasn’t like you come in, you stab ’em and they run away. I mean, it was somebody that was angry at Bruce Johnson and the multiple stab wounds were not, I mean, they were very passionate. Very passionate. It was someone, or some people that were very passionate about what Bruce Johnson represented or what he had 33 �done. That crime was never solved either. But I think that, personally, I think that it was as a result of his involvement with the Young Lords. JJ: Do you recall the Young Lords trying to work with the police to try to solve the case or, OL: I mean, we never away from [01:18:00] contributing to the solution. I think that right after they were killed, the first thing that they would say, well, probably it was Cha-Cha that did it, but you were in jail at the time. That wouldn’t stick that. But then the organization, we wanted a solution. We wanted to find out who had done it, so we’re not going to obstruct that kind of investigation. JJ: Okay. Anything that you want add that hasn’t been tested? OL: No. I think what. JJ: You’re doing today or as a result. OL: Of your work, I think that the fact that today a lot of university students, high school students, [01:19:00] a week ago I spoke to seventh and eighth graders in the grammar school in Pilsen, who are studying the Young Lords. The fact that there’s an interest in the organization today, after how many years? 30, 40, over 40 years that we’re active. It means that the impact that the Young Lords had as an organization in our community is really positive. And people are eager to find out who are these guys? Who are these young people that did this, and how do they do it and why? And is it possible to replicate that? Seventh and eighth graders, when I talked to them, they were talking about, well, how can that be done again? And so they’re thinking, see, and I think that’s a good sign. They’re looking at the model. [01:20:00] There’s a model for them. And so out of those 34 �young kids, one of ’em is going to come out and start organizing at some point, and they will have the Young Lords as a model to follow. So I think that we’ve left a good legacy for other generations. Like right now, the interest is the history, but I think that other people are going to take it as the model to implement again with the young people today. JJ: Okay. That was excellent. Interview the part before. END OF VIDEO FILE 35 � https://digitalcollections.library.gvsu.edu/files/original/bf9601271fe6f3b551f6d5ab599eff4d.mp4 c89de508fe7f2ef08446af8a1d327c46 Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Title A name given to the resource Young Lords in Lincoln Park Collection Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Description An account of the resource Collection of oral history interviews and digitized materials documenting the history of the Young Lords Organization in Lincoln Park, Chicago. Interviews were conducted by Young Lords' founder, José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, and documents were digitized from Mr. Jiménez' archives. The Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection grows out of the ongoing struggle for fair housing, self-determination, and human rights that was launched by Mr. José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez, founder of the Young Lords Movement. This project is dedicated to documenting the history of the displacement of Puerto Ricans, Mejicanos, other Latinos, and the poor from Lincoln Park, as well as the history of the Young Lords nationwide. Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Source A related resource from which the described resource is derived <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park collection (RHC-65)</a> Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Special Collections & University Archives Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2017-04-25 Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Language A language of the resource eng spa Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65 Coverage The spatial or temporal topic of the resource, the spatial applicability of the resource, or the jurisdiction under which the resource is relevant 2012-2017 Oral History A resource containing historical information obtained in interviews with persons having firsthand knowledge. Título Spanish language Title entry Omar López vídeo entrevista y biografía, entrevista 1 Descripción Spanish language Description entry Omar López era el Ministro de Información para los Young Lords. Nació en México y llego a chicago en 1958, estableándose en el vecindario de Humboldt Park donde sigue viviendo. El primero conoció alguien de los Young Lords en Lincoln Park cuando estaban en las calles como una ganga puertorriqueña. López los vio de nuevo cuando los Young Lords se transformaron, oficialmente en el 23 de Septiembre de 1958, de in ganga a un movimiento de los derechos humanos. Esta vez los jóvenes estaban protegiendo a José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez y Fred Hampton (del Black Panther Party) quien estaban hablando juntos en Loop Jr. College donde López estaba peleando por los derechos de los estudiantes y educación bilingüe. López se hizo parte de los Young Lords en 1969. En 1973 el fundo el Mexican Teachers Organization. Señor López continúa trabajando por los derechos de Latinos y emigrantes. En 2006, el corrió por el Green Party como candidato para la Case de Representantes de Illinois, del 4th distrito. El 10 de Marzo del mismo año el reunió una de la más grandes demonstraciones, de gente que luchaban por los derechos de los inmigrantes de clase obrera, en la historia de los Estados Unidos. López continua siendo proactivo en la aria de Humboldt Park, derechos para inmigrantes, la “Latin American Defense Organization (LADO), y los Young Lords. El es el director ejecutivo de CALOR, una clínica para Latinos que han sido afectados por HIV/AIDS u otras enfermedades. Sujetos Spanish language Subject terms Young Lords (Organización) Puertorriqueños--Estados Unidos Derechos civiles--Estados Unidos--Historia Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexicano-Americanos--Relatos personales Justicia social Activistas comunitarios--Illinois--Chicago Estudiantes--Derechos Civiles Source <a href="https://gvsu.lyrasistechnology.org/repositories/2/resources/491">Young Lords in Lincoln Park (RHC-65)</a> Dublin Core The Dublin Core metadata element set is common to all Omeka records, including items, files, and collections. For more information see, http://dublincore.org/documents/dces/. Identifier An unambiguous reference to the resource within a given context RHC-65_Lopez_Omar_1 Title A name given to the resource Omar López video interview and transcript, interview 1 Creator An entity primarily responsible for making the resource López, Omar Description An account of the resource Omar López was Minister of Information for the Young Lords. He was born in Mexico and first came to Chicago in 1958, settling in the Humboldt Park Neighborhood where he has lived ever since. He first met some Young Lords in Lincoln Park when they were hanging out on the streets as a local Puerto Rican street gang, and later when the Young Lords were providing security for Interviewers: José “Cha-Cha” Jiménez and Fred Hampton (of the Black Panther Party) who were speaking together at Loop Jr. College where Omar was a student and fighting for student rights and bilingual education. Mr. López joined the Young Lords in 1969. In 1973, he founded the Mexican Teachers Organization. Contributor An entity responsible for making contributions to the resource Jiménez, José, 1948- Subject The topic of the resource Young Lords (Organization) Puerto Ricans--United States Civil Rights--United States--History Lincoln Park (Chicago, Ill.) Mexican Americans--Personal narratives Social justice Community activists--Illinois--Chicago Students--Civil rights Language A language of the resource eng Rights Information about rights held in and over the resource <a href="http://rightsstatements.org/page/InC/1.0/?language=en">In Copyright</a> Type The nature or genre of the resource Moving Image Text Format The file format, physical medium, or dimensions of the resource video/mp4 application/pdf Date A point or period of time associated with an event in the lifecycle of the resource 2012-02-07 Publisher An entity responsible for making the resource available Grand Valley State University. University Libraries. Lemmen Library and Archives